Podcast appearances and mentions of bob yes

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 7, 2020 28:02

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Facing the Storms Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 1) Bob: To be the woman and the wife that God created you to be, you have to know how to walk by faith on the good days and on the dark days. Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: Most people who have been through suffering—whether it's shallow, small things or really deep, tragic things—can say, on the other side, “I didn't enjoy it / I didn't like it, but I knew God better as a result.” I've heard so many people say that. I would say it's true about us too. We've learned more about God in the valleys than we have on the high places and hills in the sunshine. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, April 11th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We're going to spend time today exploring how a husband and wife can draw closer together and become one when they're walking in the valley in the path of suffering. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Anybody who has ever been to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways knows that, on Friday night, as we are getting underway, we spend some time talking about the common potholes that derail/destabilize marriage relationships. There are some things that are pretty standard / pretty common that can cause a marriage to wobble at high speeds. Dennis: And we begin the conference with a message that is really about five threats to your oneness—five threats to your marriage / five threats to your marriage going the distance over your lifetime. 2:00 Bob: One of those threats is a failure to anticipate the unexpected trials that come into a marriage. It's not a question of whether unexpected trials will come into a marriage; but “How do you respond when they do?” because all of us are going to hit them; aren't we? Dennis: Well, if you think about it—the vows are built / the traditional vows: “…in sickness and in health / in financial success and in also being poor.” I mean, the basis of what we promise, when we establish the marriage covenant, is that we're going to take the storm head-on. We don't know what it will be; but we're pledging to one another to not quit, but to keep on loving, keep on believing, and make our marriage go the distance. Bob: And we are taking some time this week to talk with your wife Barbara. Welcome back to FamilyLife Today. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. 3:00 Bob: We're going to talk about some of those valleys and dark places that the two of you have walked together in 40-plus years of marriage and how you've not quit in the midst of that. Dennis: And what Barbara has done is—she has taken the past—almost ten—years to complete a book to wives called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife that is designed to be what it is. It's an older woman stepping into the life of a younger woman with sage advice / with seasoned advice—with the advice that comes after four decades of marriage. I love what you've done here because, honestly, there are a good number of books out there about being a wife—and there is a lot of fluff / it's kind of “How to…”—but not really tied into the reality of what women are facing today. The way this book is constructed—you end it with this subject that Bob's talking about here—the subject of suffering. 4:00 I guess I'd have to ask you: “Is that because of what you and I have been through in 40/ almost 44 years of marriage?—because we have been through some dark valleys together. Barbara: Well, that's why it's in there; because it has been an integral part of our marriage relationship. It's in there because I think most brides / most young women get married with some of what I call “fairy tale theology.” They get married thinking that: “Everything is going to be great for us. We're not going to have difficulties. Yes, there will be some uncomfortable moments, but we're not going to really have hard stuff. We're going to be great. We love each other, and everything's going to be great.” For those who are Christians—like you and I were when we got married—we also start our marriages out thinking: “You know, we believe in God. If we do it God's way, it's going to all be good. We're not going to have any hard things.” That was how I started our marriage—thinking: “A plus B equals C. 5:00 “If I obey God and I do these things that are in the Bible, then God, therefore, will give us an easy, nice life.” Bob: So, do you have a new equation now if it's not “A plus B equals C”? What would you say to a young wife, who says, “If it's not that, what is it?” Barbara: There's a lot of algebra! [Laughter] Bob: Some calculus—[Laughter]—a little geometry— Barbara: And I don't know algebra very well; so I can't even give you the formula! [Laughter] Dennis: And we're laughing, but it's the hard stuff of life. This is a broken world. There is a heaven, and it's not here / it's not now. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: God came, in the person of Jesus Christ, to give us an abundant life now and help us face these hardships; but it's like the funeral you and I participated in earlier this year—a dear couple that we love greatly, who buried the body of their 15-year-old son. It's unthinkable— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —the grief of losing a child! 6:00 No couple—standing at the altar, about to say their vows to each other—can even fathom the grief, the loss, the agony, the darkness of the valley. And yet, there are a lot of our listeners—who are in it right now, or who are about to go in it, or who have been in the valley and they've come out the other side—they're nodding their heads. Bob: And one of the things I've heard you say before, Barbara—is knowing that those valleys are ahead—you don't know when they're coming / you don't know where they are—it could be months / it could be years before you head into one—but the time to prepare your marriage and the time to get ready to walk through the valley is not when you find yourself in it—it's while you're still walking in the sunlight. Barbara: Yes. And I think that it also illustrates that the importance of building your marriage today because we don't know how many days we have. Our days are all numbered, but we don't know what the last number is. 7:00 That reminds us that today is the day we need to focus on. Today is the day we need to live—as if it were our last, even though that's hard to do in a practical way—but we need to focus on making our marriage all it can be today. Focus on getting to know Christ today / focus on growing today so that, when those hard times do come—and they will come—because Jesus said, “In this world, you will have trouble,”—period / done—“…you will have trouble.” We don't like that / I never liked that verse—I always kind of wondered why it was even in there. It is because He's telling us the truth that we will have trouble and we will have difficulty. So the best way to prepare is to live each day on purpose and to live each day with focus and intentionality in your relationship. Dennis: You don't prepare for the storm in the middle of the storm. 8:00 I will never forget a Green Beret, who came up to me at one of our Weekend to Remember marriage getaways, way back when we started FamilyLife years and years ago. He came up and said, “Dennis, as a Green Beret, we practice what to do in a crisis over, and over, and over again in training so that, when we were in the crisis, it was second nature / we knew what to do.” I think what people need to look at is—to look at the Bible as the training manual. We need to know how to live now in light of eternity. As a married couple, you have to know how to live together. We've been through some hard things in our family / some difficult challenges. It's true, Bob, husbands and wives do not suffer the same / they do not process grief in the same way. We're different, as male and female. I'm so glad that Barbara has this chapter in her book to coach women to know how to view suffering / how to view the valley in their marriage and not lose heart / not lose hope—but to not give up. 9:00 Bob: Sometimes in a marriage, Barbara, we are plunged into a deep valley, where it's the kind of darkness we've talked about here—burying a child or—I know, for you and Dennis—the loss of a grandchild, years ago, was one of those deep valleys. For a lot of wives, the valley is not as deep; but it's kind of a shallow, prolonged valley. You wouldn't necessarily even call it suffering, but it's just a general discontentedness about life and where you are. It drags on you every day. If a wife is in that moment, where she's saying, “This is not what I— Barbara: —“signed up for”? Bob: “Just not what I thought life was going to be.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: “It's not what I thought marriage was going to be. I thought having kids would be more fun than this.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: What does she do in that moment? Barbara: Well, first of all, I want to say that that is suffering. It's just a different kind of suffering because I think that is a common experience for many, many women. 10:00 I think a lot of us go through seasons of life, whether it's because of hormones or it's because of the season that our kids are in. I remember a season like that for me, in the late teen years, before we became empty nesters. I remember being so exhausted every single day. I think there's a cumulative effect that a lot of mothers feel—it just kind of builds—so that by the time you're in your 40s or pushing 50, there's this general fatigue with life. I think that is a kind of suffering because we do live in a broken world. That is a difficult thing to deal with because it affects everything about you—it affects your marriage, your kids that are still at home, your perception of yourself, your perception of life, your enjoyment of life. So I think that those really can be called kinds of suffering. 11:00 So the answer is--and I don't want this to sound like a pat answer because there isn't a pat answer—but I think the bottom line is: “Continuing to believe God that He is in control and that this too shall pass.” It's pulling back and looking at the big picture. I describe this as watercolor painting in my book because one of the things about creating a painting is—you come up with an initial sketch, and you've got to decide where the horizon line is, and what's going to be your focal point. Often, when you're doing a painting of any kind—and even a sculpture, although I don't do that, but I think the same principle is true with any kind of art—you have to pull back. One of the things that's important about doing a painting is—you walk six feet away and look at it / or maybe even farther—and you see the whole more clearly when you're away from it. The same is true in our lives—we need to pull back / remind ourselves of the big picture: 12:00 “God is in control. He still loves me. He's working good in my life, even though I don't see it or feel it and I don't know what the outcome is going to be. I can trust Him.” I think the message is, “Don't quit when it gets hard.” Our temptation is to want to run away when things get hard or when things get difficult—to escape from the pressure, escape from the pain, escape from whatever it is that you're feeling as a result of the suffering. But God is saying: “No. Stay there. I'm with you. I won't abandon you. I'm going to use this for good.” Dennis: And back to the motif or the illustration of watercolors. Bob, I've watched Barbara create paintings; and it's fascinating how she shows off light. You would think that would be pretty simple; but to a non-artistic person like me, it's fascinating how you use dark colors to show off the light. 13:00 What Barbara's actually talking about here is—I think that God allows the darkness—God allows the valleys / He allows the disappointments and the unmet expectations—those things to come into our lives to create some contrast that will call us to trust Him. Because, frankly, if everything went our own way,— Barbara: —we wouldn't need Him or we wouldn't trust Him. Dennis: —we wouldn't need God. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: And we could live our whole lives just being “happy.” Well, you know what? That isn't going to happen! Barbara: Right. Dennis: You're not going to be able to live “a happy life.” Bob: But I do think there are a lot of wives who—when they are not happy / they're in a prolonged season, where, “I just haven't felt happy for a while,”—they start to look around and go: “Okay, how come I'm not feeling happy? Who's the cause of this!?” [Laughter] Guess—who is the closest person there to take the blame for: “I'm not happy! It's got to be something he's doing! If he was doing his job, I'd be happy!”? 14:00 Do you think that's right? Barbara: Do I think it is right that she's thinking that? Bob: Yes. Barbara: Well, no! It's not right that she's thinking that. [Laughter] Bob: Is it accurate that she might be thinking that? Barbara: Oh, I think it's common. Bob: Yes! But it's not right. Barbara: But it's not right; yes. [Laughter] I mean, it's very easy to blame somebody else. That's one of the hard things about marriage—is that it's so easy for both of us—husband or wife—to blame the person who's right there because they're handy, and it's really easy to find fault and say, “Well, if you only…, my life would be so much better.” But that's not really what the reason is. The real reason is that God—because He's our Father, and He's a loving, kind, gracious Father / is so patient—and He's saying to us: “You need this right now. This will be for your good right now. I know you don't like it / I know it doesn't feel good, but I've got purposes and I've got plans for you. You will be glad in the end.” 15:00 Most people who have been through suffering—whether it's shallow, small things or really deep, tragic things—can say, on the other side: “I didn't enjoy it / I didn't like it, but I knew God better / I came to know Him better as a result. I wouldn't trade that for anything.” I've heard so many people say that, and I would say it's true about us too. We've learned more about God in the valleys than we have on the high places and hills in the sunshine. Dennis: I just want to read a couple of passages, just based upon all Barbara is talking about here. If you're going through a hard time, I'd like to recommend the best-seller—the Bible—and the Book of 1 Peter, which was written to a group of people, who had been scattered and who were followers of Christ. They were called the diaspora—they were scattered saints, having to represent Christ in cultures that punished them for it. Barbara: Well, they weren't just scattered—because we tend to think of scattered as they are just living in different places—but they lost homes / possessions. 16:00 I mean, they had really experienced some difficult traumas that we face today when houses burn down or we go bankrupt and we lose everything. That puts a little more context in what these people were living in. Bob: They were refugees—not just scattered—but refugees. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So I just want to read what God wanted to say to some folks who were going through some hard times. Just listen to how God coaches and gently nudges people who are in the valley—1 Peter, Chapter 3, verse 13: “Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.” 17:00 But listen to this conclusion to this passage: “For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.” So you hear the Scripture calling us to have the right perspective of our valley. Don't just look at it from a human perspective. Wherever you are, maybe pull out this book and read 1 Peter, Chapter 3. Then, across the page, go look at Chapter 4, verse 12 and listen to what Peter says here: “Beloved, don't be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.” 18:00 I've got to stop there because I think we, as human beings, are really odd. We think, when we get married, there's never going to be a valley. It's in the fine print of the marriage covenant—you're going to go through testing / through trials. But listen to this—verse 13 of Chapter 4: “But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed.” The Bible so calls us away from our temporary thinking / from how I'm feeling right now. It's calling you, not to live by feelings, but it's calling you to faith: “Are you going to believe that that's true?” As a couple, will you allow the things that are coming at you to bind your hearts to His—first of all to God's—but then, secondly, to one another and to not give up?—and as Barbara said, “…not quit and not toss the towel in.” We're talking to people, right now, who have secretly—or maybe verbally—threatened divorce to their spouse. 19:00 I mean, it is commonplace in our culture. But this is the biblical way to look at suffering, and the biblical way to run the race all the way to the finish line. Bob: Well, what I've heard both of you saying throughout this is—first of all: “Trials are coming; so be ready, and the way you get ready is by learning how to trust God in the sunshine so that, when you're in the valley, you've already learned what walking by faith looks like. You don't wait to get to the valley to learn.” Dennis: You don't wait ‘til the storm comes and it starts raining to go up on top of the roof to— Bob: —to fix the leak. Dennis: —to fix the leak. Bob: And then, the second thing is: “When you're in the valley and the circumstances are pressing, you have to pull back—step away from the painting, get the bigger picture, and counsel your own soul with what you know is true in the sunshine. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “Preach it to yourself in the shadow. That's how Jesus walks through that with you.” 20:00 So a wife who finds herself in a season of suffering—whether it's the mild malaise we talked about earlier, where it's just discouragement, or whether it's a significant period of suffering—she has to counsel her own soul and remind herself of what's true and hang onto that. Barbara: And she needs to realize that God wants to use the hard times for the good of her marriage. It's not just for her good or her husband's good, or for the betterment of some circumstance, but God really wants to use these difficulties to help them, as a couple / a husband and a wife, grow closer together. We suffer differently / we handle things differently, but that's part of what God wants to do to help us become more one—is for me to share what I'm feeling when we're suffering, and for me to listen to Dennis share what he's feeling or, when he doesn't share what he's feeling, to trust that God is at work in his soul. 21:00 As we go through that experience together, it bonds us together more than on days when we're not struggling. Dennis: What I'd have to say to that is—I wish, at this point, I could reach through the radio—whether it's a phone, or a computer, or your car, or in your shop / wherever you're listening—and just put an arm around you and say, “Oh, we have such a shallow view of love!” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: We think love is like the movies depict it—a couple walking off in the sunset, arm in arm, with the soft breeze, and the music swelling, and people applauding. The reality is—a lot of love is learned in the valley, where two people aren't feeling the same thing / where two people aren't finding a lot of romance because there's no room in the valley, sometimes, for romance. It's where two people learn how to really love because they meet the God of love in the valley, and they begin to understand He loves them— 22:00 —that's what they're supposed to reflect to one another. Bob: I think there are a lot of wives who are really going to be helped as they get a chance to read your reflections on how God uses suffering in a marriage relationship and in a family—how God has used it in your life as you've gone through seasons of suffering. You write about this in your new book, Letters to My Daughters. Barbara: Yes. Bob: We are making that book available this month to listeners who can support the ministry of FamilyLife with a donation of any amount. We are a listener-supported ministry. We depend on your donations to be able to continue the work of FamilyLife Today. If you can help with a donation this month, we'd like to send you a copy of Barbara's brand-new book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can make a donation online if you'd like. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. 23:00 Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Let me just say, “Thanks,” in advance for your support of this ministry. We hope you enjoy Barbara's new book, Letters to My Daughters. We want to say, “Congratulations!” today to our friends, Wayne and Carrie Owen. They live in Sacramento, California. I lived in Sacramento for a while. In fact, I worked at the radio station where they listen to FamilyLife Today—at KFIA. The Owens have been married 29 years today—“Congratulations!” to them. If you have an anniversary coming up later this year, we'd like to help you celebrate. We will send you some text messages or emails just prior to your anniversary—just some little prompts for you to begin to get ready to celebrate your special day. We just need to know what your special day. So call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY and let us know your anniversary date. 24:00 Or you can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date and let us know whether you'd like those messages sent to you by email or by text message. Now, tomorrow, we want to spend time talking about how fear can affect a family. We especially want to look at blended or stepfamilies. We're going to hear from Ron Deal tomorrow with thoughts on the subject of fear. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch—special help today from Mark Ramey. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Embracing the Differences

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 7, 2020 30:02

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Differences Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 3) Bob: Engaged couples often look at one another and think, “We're so much alike!” Then, after they have been married for a little while, they look at each other and think, “Who are you?!” Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: What happens when we're engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike. We love each other so much—we'll never have clashes.” I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating. All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now what do I do?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 15th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. So what advice would you give to young wives and their husbands about the adjustments we make in marriage? We're going to hear what Barbara Rainey has to say about that today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I am really enjoying learning lots of new things about you, Barbara. Dennis: You're eavesdropping. Bob: Well, it's legitimate eavesdropping because of what your wife's been writing about. This has been so much fun to read. [Laughter] Dennis: I think I want to welcome her to FamilyLife Today—Sweetheart. Barbara: Maybe we don't; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: This is my bride, and she has plenty of stories to tell. Bob: And she has just recently—by the way, welcome, Barbara—nice to have you here. Barbara: Thank you, Bob. Bob: You've been collecting these stories, not to share with the world your stories, but really to mentor—you've become an e-mentor; haven't you? Barbara: Yes. I'm really writing this for six women / six young women, who happen to be my four daughters and two daughters-in-law—to share with them the lessons that I've learned over all these years of marriage in hopes that it will encourage them, and give them hope, and help them—help them persevere for the long haul. 2:00 Dennis: But it actually started—back to Bob's point about—from an e-mentoring standpoint—really started on the internet— Barbara: It did. That's right; I had forgotten. Dennis: —as you were writing emails to your daughters and daughters-in-law so that you'd be able to coach them / encourage them in the process. Bob: Did you start doing this right after Ashley got married? Barbara: No; actually, it was after our two boys got married. They got married the same summer—the summer of 2001. One of those two girls asked me if I would give her some advice on being a wife. I thought: “Wow! She really wants my advice?” I thought, “If she cracked the door open a little bit, I'm going to just walk right on through while the door's open!” I said, “Sure, I'd love to!” I began writing a series of letters in the fall of 2001 to my two brand-new daughters-in-law and to my daughter, Ashley, who, by then, had been married four years. Bob: A lot of—a wife will hear you say that and they'll think, ““Boy, if somebody asked me, I wouldn't know where to start or what to say.” 3:00 But it sounds like you were ready to dive right in with wisdom. Barbara: Well, I don't know that I would say it that way, but I was ready to dive in—in the sense that I felt like, “Now was the time,” because all new brides are extremely teachable—they're eager, they want to learn, they want to do it right, they don't want to make mistakes—they really love this guy they just married. They're most teachable and most coachable in those early years. I wanted to begin by sort of exploiting that—in a sense, in a good way—by saying: “Here are some things that I learned / here are some lessons I learned along the way. Here are some stories of what we went through / what I've learned from it. Perhaps, it will be helpful.” Dennis: Over the years, we've—who knows how many hundreds of Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways have been held by FamilyLife—we've looked into the eyes of those in attendance. 4:00 It does seem that the engaged couples and the newly-marrieds are, not only on a steep learning curve, but they're much more teachable and kind of spongy in terms of soaking in the truth. What we wanted to do—and what I encouraged Barbara to do with this book—is take advantage of a window into the soul to speak a lot of relevant truth that she's learned, as a woman from the Scriptures and from other older women who have coached her, and really help these young wives get started on the right trajectory. Bob: They didn't ask you about a specific subject. They just said, “Help me be a wife.” How did you know, “Okay; I'll start here”? Barbara: Well, what I did is—I just thought back to those early days in our marriage and tried to remember: “What were the lessons that I learned? What did I do right? What did I do wrong?” Bob: Like that early romantic date that Dennis took you on? Barbara: Yes, like that one. Bob: Tell our listeners about—[Laughter] Barbara: You like this; don't you? [Laughter] 5:00 Bob: —how ““Prince Charming” swept you off your feet. [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. While we were dating in the summer of 1972, which was of course in the dark ages—one Saturday / it was probably on a Friday afternoon Dennis asked if I wanted to hang out on Saturday afternoon. I said, “Sure.” He picked me up in his— Bob: Now, let me interrupt you just so we get a context. Barbara: Okay. Bob: You guys had been friends for years— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —since college. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Right. Bob: [To Barbara] After college, you went to the east coast and worked with Campus Crusade. Barbara: Correct. Dennis: University of South Carolina. Bob: [To Dennis] Where did you go? Dennis: I was in Dallas/Ft. Worth area, working with high school kids. Bob: You kept up your friendship— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —but there was nothing romantic between the two of you. Barbara: No, nothing romantic. We had been really good friends for three years. I really thought of Dennis as a brother—he was just a great, great friend. Dennis: She showed up in Dallas and needed to be shown around—kind of where everything was / kind of how you get around—so I'd pick her up, take her to work. Bob: Now, were you thinking of her like your sister at this point? 6:00 Dennis: Yes, I really was. It was not romantic—it really wasn't—which is really a cheap shot on your part—[Laughter]—to call out this thing that I took her on as a romantic date because we were just hanging out! Barbara: That's right—we were. Bob: Was this before—this date we're about to talk about—was this before or after you had tried to hold hands with her in the parking lot? Dennis: Way before. Barbara: I have no idea. Dennis: Way before. Bob: Really? Barbara: I would think so—yes. Dennis: Oh, yes; oh, yes. Bob: Okay. Barbara: I would guess. Bob: It's just friends: “Hey, do you want to hang out tomorrow?” Dennis: Yes. I'd take her back to her apartment, and we'd kind of sit on the stairs and talk— Barbara: Yes. Bob: Just visit. Dennis: —until about 2:00 in the morning—[Laughter]—just like a couple of friends. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: Yes. [Dennis laughing] Bob: Okay. So he says, “Do you want to hang out tomorrow?” and he comes and picks you up. Barbara: He did. Bob: Did you know where you were going? Barbara: You know, I don't remember—it was too long ago. I don't remember if I knew or not, but I knew it was casual. I knew we were going to go on a picnic. He took me to some remote place outside of Dallas/Ft. Worth— 7:00 Bob: Now wait. I've got to stop you here. You're taking her on a picnic. You're not taking your buddy—“Let's go hang out,”— on a picnic. There's more going on here in your mind [Barbara laughing] than just, “Let's hang out together.” Dennis: She needed to understand where the riverbanks were— Bob: Alright. Barbara: Like I really care! Bob: We understand one another here; okay. So he picks you up? [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. We take off to parts unknown because I'd never really been in Texas in my life. I didn't know where we were going, but I trusted him. We show up at this stream, or river, or pool of water, or something—I don't know where it was! Dennis: I don't know where it was—it was below a dam somewhere. Barbara: Gosh; I couldn't begin to tell you. Dennis: It was murky / it was fishy-smelling. It was a great date! Barbara: All I know is he pulls out a fishing pole—fishing rod / fishing thing—I didn't know what a fishing thing was! [Laughter] Oh, how funny! Bob: One of the things you observed or learned, when you shared this story with your daughters—it was really to talk about the fact that, in relationships, you've got to make some adjustments and be ready for the fact that you're two very different people. Barbara: Exactly; because after we married, about three months later, we moved to Colorado. 8:00 In Colorado, there was abundant fishing. Bob: You married three months later—after the fishing date? Barbara: Yes! Dennis: You caught up on that small detail. [Laughter] Bob: I just thought our listeners ought to be aware. [Laughter] It went from zero to sixty. Dennis: I'm a man of action, Bob. Bob: This was a sports car relationship. [Laughter] So, from the day you said, “Will you…” to the day you said, “I do,”— Barbara: —was six weeks. Bob: Six weeks? Barbara: Six weeks. Bob: You said, “I'll be the Fish Queen for as long as we both shall live.” [Laughter] Dennis: Then, on our honeymoon, I took her camping and trout fishing. [Laughter] We need to get to the point of the book though—she's talking about how we, as men and women, are different. Barbara: That's right. Dennis: I mean, we did start out our marriage—really, not polar opposites—because we enjoyed one another. Barbara: Yes, we had a great time; but, had you asked me what I would have pictured for the early years of our marriage, I would not have pictured traipsing around in the mountains— 9:00 —fishing, and camping, and all of those things—because none of that was a part of my background, growing up. They were totally brand-new experiences. I learned, by those experiences, that marrying someone is merging together two vastly different—not just personalities—but life experiences. As Dennis used to say, all the time, “It's like merging two countries.” Bob: Yes. Barbara: Because we are very different, as men and women—we're very different in our life experiences / our outlook—everything is different. So those early years are years of discovery. What you do with what you discover sets the tone and the foundation for your marriage. Bob: Obviously, we're talking to Barbara Rainey, who is joining us today on FamilyLife Today. We're talking about the wisdom that you want to pass on to younger women—specifically to your daughters—about being a wife. You've just written a book called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. 10:00 What are the big ideas that you want to pass on to your daughters in this area of marital differences? Barbara: First of all—the first big idea is that there are going to be differences. It‘s normal to be diametrically opposite on all kinds of fronts. Because what happens—when we're engaged / and dating but then engaged—we tend to think: “Oh, we're so much alike, and we love each other so much—we'll never have clashes. Yes; if we do, we can handle them. We love each other so much that it's not going to be difficult.” I think one of the first difficulties for most young couples is they're caught off guard by these differences. They don't know what to do with them—they go from being cute and attractive to being downright ugly or frustrating. Bob: Yes. Barbara: All of a sudden, what was cute isn't so cute anymore; and you think, “Now, what do I do?” Bob: We have this tendency to think different means wrong. Barbara: Wrong; yes. 11:00 Bob: “This is the way I think; and it's the way I think naturally. So I must be right; and if you think differently, we need to fix you so you think like me.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: That's part of the awakening and adjusting that both wives and husbands have to do in the early stages of a relationship; right? Barbara: Exactly; because that's one of the beautiful things about marriage—is how it broadens our perspective. I write about that in telling these stories about fishing. I knew nothing about fishing; but because of who I married, the horizons of my life have been greatly expanded and broadened. I could have either fought that, and resisted that, and said: “I don't want any part of that! That's foreign to me. I don't like it”; but by embracing who he was, and his differences as a person, my life is much richer because of that. I think, if we can encourage these young wives—and husbands too / but this is for the wives right now—to welcome those differences as an opportunity to grow as an individual, it will make it easier. Dennis: I like what you wrote in your book here— 12:00 —you said: “These new realities created some minor earthquakes in my life—rumblings that shook my familiar, comfortable foundation. I was discovering that we were not as much alike as I'd originally thought. We were opposites who were attracted to one another but found ourselves, like magnets, that repel each other.” And then she goes on to write about how I would make a decision compared to how she would make one. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I'd see something that needed to be done or something I felt like we ought to go do—I'd process at the speed of light and off we'd go. Bob: Right. Dennis: Barbara, on the other hand, processes a little slower. In fact— Barbara: —a lot slower. Dennis: —a lot slower. Barbara: Is that what you were going to say? Bob: A little more thoughtfully—with a little broader perspective. Dennis: I've been enriched by that, but I promise you—if, early in our marriage, we had set up war with one another in two separate bunkers. 13:00 You could easily have built a case between two very different people, who had started out their marriage together, but now really can't get along and don't see one another—as we teach at the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—as “God's perfect gift for you.” Bob: You describe how you began to approach these differences in your marriage. You call it the “Bookend Principle.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: Explain what that is. Barbara: The Bookend Principle is something that Dennis and I practiced with one another; and then, after the fact, sort of came up with the name for that. What we have done through the years is—when we've had disagreements over our differences or conversations trying to understand one another—we would say to each other: “I love you, and I would marry you all over again. This may be hard, this may be confusing, this may be difficult—it may not be fixed in a single conversation, like we would always like; but that's okay. I love you and I'm committed to you, and I would do it all over again.” 14:00 That statement of reaffirmation of our vows and commitment to one another provides a level of security to continue to have these discussions about our differences. I think it's a good habit. It was a good habit for us because you can get so caught up in how different we are—and how his differences grate on me or make life difficult for me and my differences make life difficult for him—that you can subtly switch to becoming enemies rather than allies. Bob: Were there times, or events, or evenings when you weren't sure you loved him and you weren't sure you'd marry him all over again? Barbara: No. There were times when I didn't feel loving—without question—but I never got to the place where I thought, “This was a big mistake,” because I knew that God had called us to marry each other. I knew that we were doing what we were supposed to do. So, therefore, if this was God's will, and it was, then He would enable us to figure it out with time. Bob: That issue was settled. Barbara: Yes; “Done.” Bob: That wasn't open for reevaluation— Barbara: No. Bob: —reexamination— Barbara: No. Bob: —re-discussion. 15:00 At some point—when you stood and said, “I do,”—the ships were burned. You weren't going to reconsider whether— Barbara: I think that's the mistake too many young couples are making today—is they get into it, and it becomes difficult—instead of saying, “We can work this out,” they say, “Gosh; we must have made a mistake.” They move to, “This is a mistake, and maybe there's a way out,” rather than, “We can find a way through this / we can make it work,” and stick with it for the long haul. Dennis: I look back on our marriage. I don't remember ever entertaining the thought. And I mean by entertaining—I'm talking about cultivating the thought that I'd made a mistake. I do wonder, looking back on it—this Bookend Principle of kind of starting out with a commitment that says, “I love you,” and then maybe, in the midst of an argument or after the argument has been exhausted, you say again: “I'm committed to you. I'd marry you all over again.” 16:00 It creates a safe place for two imperfect, very different people to hammer out their relationship together. I think we're an instant culture that is not used to having to take a lifetime to achieve this thing called “oneness.” What we were doing, back then—we were going through some very hard ground. I mean, it had not been plowed before—two very independent people—who had joined together in marriage, and who did rub one another the wrong way, and who, in their differences, missed each other over, and over, and over again—and, as a result, mis-communicated, disappointed, hurt one another. How do you maintain a relationship in the midst of that if you're not committed? Bob: I think it's important because we can laugh about fishing dates, and whether you like fishing or not; but a lot of folks, who are listening, are going, “Look, our differences are not around whether you like fishing or not— Barbara: Yes; exactly. 17:00 Bob: “Our differences are around core, fundamental, deeply-held issues in life. The fact that we're miles apart on this—I just don't know how to live with a husband / or a wife who does not embrace what's dear to me at the center of my being.” Barbara: Yes. That is a very difficult place to be. Even though Dennis and I never really had a crisis quite to that depth, we missed each other plenty of times. There are seasons in a marriage when it's very dry and when there doesn't feel like there's much life. I would have to say that: “There is hope. There's always hope, as long as we have breath, that if you are committed and you are teachable—both of you are teachable—and you hang in there, there will be a solution, given time.” I think that we expect too much too quickly. We would like to have it happen quickly—I would like to have it happen more quickly too, but that's just not the way of a marriage. 18:00 A marriage is slow, steady growth over a long length of time. Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, Chapters 2 and 3, the way God commands a marriage to start is He commanded a man and a woman to leave father and mother. He commanded them to cleave to one another / to be committed to one another. And third, He commanded them to receive one another—to receive the other person as God's gift for you. If you practice those three concepts—leave, cleave, and receive—over, and over, and over again—if you practice that in your marriage / especially, in the early years—it doesn't mean it's ever going to be easy. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I asked Barbara how she would summarize our marriage. I was kind of hoping for “romantic,” [Laughter] “chill bumps”— Barbara: —“wonderful.” Dennis: You know? But instead, you said? Barbara: “It's been hard.” Dennis: “Hard work.” Barbara: “Hard work”; yes. 19:00 Dennis: Lots of hard work. I think a lot of young couples—and for that matter, older couples—are starting out marriages today not really expecting it to be as challenging and to demand perseverance like it does Bob: I just have to come back around here because you're right in this section of your book that—not only did your marriage start off with fishing—but through the years you've learned to enjoy hunting with your husband? [Laughter] Is that true? Barbara: Well, not by his definition; no. Not by— Dennis: I was waiting for the answer to that question. Bob: I'm going to read to you what you wrote. Barbara: Okay; okay. Read what I wrote. Bob: “And I have learned to appreciate hunting.” Barbara: Yes, “appreciate it.” Bob: Maybe “appreciate” is a better word than— Barbara: “Appreciate” is a better word. Yes Bob: “I actually went with him on an elk hunt a few years ago— Barbara: Yes. I did. Bob: — “with the camo, the face paint, and the human scent killers sprayed on my body.” Barbara: [Laughing] I did! Barbara and Bob: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter] Bob: That's what you say right here: “Aren't you impressed?” [Laughter] 20:00 “We hiked and hiked and snuck up on a herd of elk hiding behind trees like clandestine spies following a double agent down a dark alley in Eastern Europe. It was really fun!” Barbara: It was fun! [Laughter] Bob: But the point is that we're going to face these differences in the first years of our marriage. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Some of them crop up ten years in—fifteen. It's a life-long process of understanding “We're different,” and making those adjustments. Barbara: Exactly. That really is the point that I'm trying to make with these girls—is that the differences are there—they're not to be changed and they're going to be there for life. I think we somehow assume, early on, that a lot of this stuff is going to subside, or change, or moderate; but who we are is who we are. I'm just amazed at how little really changes over time. You either fight it, and resent it, and resist it, or you join and learn to actually enjoy it and appreciate it. 21:00 Now, do I love to go hunting? No. I enjoyed that because it was active. We were hiking in the mountains, and it was beautiful. Dennis: And it was warm. Barbara: And it was reasonably warm; yes. But the kind of hunting that he is often inviting me to go on—which I have refused—is the kind where you get up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, in the winter, and you go sit. You can't talk / you can hardly breathe, and it's freezing. [Laughter] Hiking in the mountains—we could talk as we went—until we actually saw the elk / then we had to be quiet. It was a much different kind of experience so I could appreciate that one. But sitting in a deer stand—I've done it once and I'm not real interested in going there again. Bob: The point is—you don't have to be interested in going there again to make your marriage work. This is a part of the dance. One of your chapters in your book, “Marriage Is Like Beautiful Dancing”— 22:00 —“Part of the dance is understanding what we do together and where it's better to leave each other some space and some time to do things apart.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: I just think you have given some real great practical wisdom to a lot of wives in what you've written in your book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's brand new, and you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com to request your copy. Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and ask for the book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us. Now, as both of you guys know, this is our 40th anniversary as a ministry—2016. All year long, we are celebrating anniversaries. Today, we want to congratulate Abigail and Angelo Pinheiro. They live in Princeton, New Jersey. They listen to FamilyLife Today on WFIL. They're celebrating 21 years of marriage today. “Congratulations!” to the Pinheiros—“Happy Anniversary!” 23:00 We'd love to help you celebrate your anniversary this year. In fact, if you will go to FamilyLifeToday.com and leave us your anniversary date, we'll have some suggestions for you this year on how this year's anniversary can be the best anniversary ever. It's all because we are the “Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries.” There are a lot of anniversaries that have happened over the years because of how God has used FamilyLife in people's lives for 40 years now. Thanks to those of you who make FamilyLife possible. We're listener-supported—we depend on your donations in order for this ministry to exist. This month, we're hoping that God might raise up, in every state where FamilyLife Today is heard, 20 new families who would join us as Legacy Partners. We're asking you—if you're a regular FamilyLife Today listener / if God's used this ministry in your life: “Would you be one of the families in your state to help support this program?” It's easy to do—go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, “DONATE.” 24:00 There is information there about becoming a Legacy Partner or about how you can make a one-time gift to FamilyLife Today. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also call and say, “I'm interested in becoming a Legacy Partner.” We'll explain the whole process to you when you call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Now, tomorrow, we're going to talk about the spiritual foundation in a marriage and how important that is. Barbara Rainey will be back with us. Hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

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Leaning on God

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 7, 2020 30:12

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Leaning on God Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 3) Bob: Barbara Rainey says there's a lesson that every couple needs to learn really early in their marriage. The lesson is this: “You can't do this on your own.” Barbara: The bottom line is going to be the same for the rest of your life; and that is, when God brings you to a place that you realize you cannot do this thing called marriage, you can't do this thing called mothering, you can't even do the Christian life on your own—that you come to Him and you say: “I give up. I surrender—Your will, not mine.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, February 16th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll find out today just how important it is to have a spiritual foundation poured in your marriage if you're going to try to build a home on top of it. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I'm curious—did you think, when you and Barbara, in the summer of 1972—I guess September of '72 / late summer; right? Dennis: Right; right. Bob: That's when the two of you stood and faced one another and said your vows. Dennis: It was still summer in Houston. Bob: Did you think, “This is going to be a breeze,” or did you think, “I know there will be some challenges”? Dennis: I just didn't think. [Laughter] Honestly! I was in love. I was committed. I was ready to get on with life with my new bride and my new love. Honestly, I didn't do a lot of cost-counting; but I did make a commitment. Bob: We heard your wife laugh as you said, “I wasn't really thinking.” Barbara, welcome to FamilyLife Today. Barbara: Thank you. Dennis: Were you thinking, Barbara? Barbara: Not much more than you were. Bob: But were you confident? Barbara: Yes, I really was. Bob: Did you start marriage, thinking, “I can do this”? Barbara: Yes; I really did because I had grown up in a good home. My parents were not divorced. I had seen them work out their marriage and—though there were things I wanted to do differently—I felt like I could do this. Added to that, I was doubly confident because I was a Christian and my husband was. We were not just pew-warmers / we were committed Christ followers. I thought: “This is guaranteed to work because we've got the right ingredients: We love each other. We love the Lord. We are going to do this the right way. We're going to follow the instructions in the Bible—A+B=C. It's going to work out great!” Bob: The reason we're exploring this is because you've been spending a lot of time, recently, working on editing a series of letters—actually, emails that grew into letters. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Letters that you've written over the years to your daughters and your daughters-in-law, where you've just offered counsel from your own life and experience about getting married. Barbara: Yes. I started writing this series of letters the summer that both of our sons got married. It wasn't so much that I wanted to teach them—and I was invited to do so by the way—I didn't do this without an invitation. It was that I wanted to encourage them by sharing some of the stories of things that I had learned so that they would know that: “Oh, it's normal to have disagreements. Oh, it's normal for this to happen or that to happen,” so that they would understand the long view of marriage and the big picture of marriage. Dennis: One of the things that had occurred in our marriage that I think really pointed out the importance of perhaps Barbara doing this—early in our marriage, she had kind of run into the differences between us and how that was impacting her. Someone told us—and I don't remember who—but said, “You really ought to go spend some time with an older woman who has experienced more of life and been around the barn a few more times than you have.” Just to spend some time and to know that what you're going through is normal. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I think couples start out their marriage together and they get isolated. They don't realize that what they're going through is what everybody else is dealing with. But if they have someone who is seasoned / who's authentic—and not going to create some kind of pie-in-the-sky approach that's: “A+B=C, and you're going to have all your problems solved by sundown tonight,”—if you've got somebody who's real and helps you understand that it takes a lifetime to work out this thing called marriage. That's what really fueled Barbara in writing our daughters and our daughters-in-law to be able to enter in to these first months and years of their marriage. Bob: Barbara, one of the issues you felt like you needed to mentor your daughters and daughters-in-law in was this issue that we talked about—your confidence that you could be the wife and mom that God called you to be—that, at some point along the way, you kind of woke up and went, “This is harder than I thought it was going to be.” Barbara: Yes. I think that realization was an on-going realization. What I've realized, as I look back over my life, is that, along the way—from those early months of our marriage all the way up until the present—God has been saying to me, over and over again, “You can't do this on your own.” Now, my initial response is, “Oh, yes; I can.” Bob: Yes. Barbara: Because I've got—especially in the early years—a lot of motivation, a lot of energy, a lot of enthusiasm—to really do a good job being a wife. Most young women start out that way / most new brides start out that way. We're highly motivated, highly teachable, energetic, ready to go and be the best we can be; but God knows that, if we really are able to produce on our own, then our confidence is in our self and not in Him. In this section of the book, I tell lots of stories of how God took me places where I realized I could not do it on my own; and I could not garner up enough strength on my own to see the situation through. Bob: The book you're talking about, of course, is called, Letters to My Daughters. It's your brand-new book. The subtitle is The Art of Being a Wife—Barbara Rainey is showing us on FamilyLife Today. Barbara, you started marriage as a committed follower of Christ. You were involved in ministry, but there were cracks in your spiritual foundation that started to show up under the pressure of marriage— Barbara: Yes; they did. I first felt it most dramatically after our first child was born. We had moved for probably the fourth or fifth time—I can't remember. We'd moved a bunch in those first two-and-a-half years of marriage. I remember one day just feeling really overwhelmed with these jobs I had. I was a wife, and I was a mother—and it was 24/7. Our new little baby didn't come with an instruction manual, and I didn't know what I was doing. We lived in California, and my mother was in Texas. It's not like I could call her every day, or I could go visit her, or she could come over in the afternoon and babysit so I could take a nap. I mean, I was really very, very lonely. I was very isolated, and I was very bewildered as to how to make this thing work: “How do I do this wifing and mothering thing without any instructions?” I really remember feeling a sense of real aloneness in that season of my life. I tell a story in the book—would you like to hear it?—about how I ran away? Bob: You ran away?! Barbara: I ran away. [Laughter] Dennis: It wasn't far—but she did run away. [Laughter] Barbara: No; it wasn't far—No; it wasn't far—but I had this—it really is what it was though. I wouldn't have even said so at the time but, looking back on it, it really is a good expression of what I was feeling. I went—out of just sheer frustration—I wasn't really angry / I was just bewildered. I left Ashley sleeping in the crib or, maybe, she was in the infant seat or something in the living room. I don't even know what Dennis was doing, but all I remember is that I went into the bathroom in our bedroom / our master bathroom and shut and locked the door. It was a teensy little master bathroom—it had a tub, and a toilet, with a little tiny counter with a sink in the middle. I sat on the toilet. Then I got uncomfortable, and I sat on the side of the tub. Then that got uncomfortable, and so I sat on the toilet again. The walls started to kind of close in on me and I thought, “Oh, now what do I do?” I was just absolutely lost because I didn't know how to—I just didn't know how to do this thing. Finally, I came out. Thankfully my husband, in his love for me, did not go: “What an idiot you were! What were you thinking?”—you know, going in the bathroom and locking the door—“What was the point of that?” He didn't belittle me / he didn't make fun of me. He didn't criticize me. He, I'm sure, gave me a hug; and we sat down and talked. Now, what it was all about—I can't even begin to tell you. What he said to me—I don't remember—but I remember the emotion of the moment—that I was lost. I didn't know how to do this thing called marriage, I didn't know how to do this thing called mothering, and I didn't know where to go for help. That was the first real sort of moment of awakening—when I realized this was all bigger than I could handle, and I needed something outside of myself to make it work. It was God's bringing me to this place of going, “You can't do this on your own.” Dennis: I think, as a husband—truthfully, I think I was clueless that she didn't feel that confidence. Barbara: Well, of course, you were! How could you know? Dennis: This was an internal battle she was fighting. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So, when she did come out of the bathroom, I don't think I had realized that she had actually locked herself in there— Barbara: No; I'm sure you didn't. Dennis: —and had kind of run away from her responsibilities for a few minutes. I don't think you were in there—probably, an hour— Barbara: No; not more than an hour. Dennis: —but the point is—as a husband, at that point / however imperfectly you may love—but just allow your wife to express the inability and to express her need for something to change / something to be different for her to move forward. I think marriage is an opportunity for us to finish the process of growing up. In fact, I think it was Erma Bombeck who used to say, “Marriage is the last chance God gives us to grow up.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: I think it's one of the tools God uses in our lives to take us to the end of ourselves— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —where He kind of puts an exclamation point at the end of the sentence that says: “You need Me! Signed, God.” Barbara: Exactly; exactly. Bob: But Barbara, you were a Christian—you studied the Scriptures, you were in church, you were— Barbara: Yes! That's what I thought! [Laughter] Bob: So, what was missing? Barbara: I think what was missing was an experiential understanding of my need for Christ. Yes, I knew I needed Christ when I received Him. Yes, I knew—had you asked me, an hour before I went into the bathroom and locked the door, “Do you need Christ?”—I would have said, “Of course!” But it was knowledge more than it was heart experience. God loved me enough that He wanted me to feel my need for Him—for me to experience that I could not do this on my own. I think God loves us enough that He wants to take it from merely head knowledge to heart knowledge. It was the process that God was beginning to work in my life, where He was showing me: “No, you can't do this on your own. Your knowledge of Me is not enough. You need to experience a need for the Holy Spirit to control your life—not just know it in your head that, ‘Yes, that's the way you're supposed to do it,'—but you need to be aware of your need for Me so you will, in fact, depend on Me.” Bob: Okay; so, you're aware of your need. Now, you're going to do something different than you were doing. What's that different thing? How does somebody come out of the bathroom and say: “Okay; I realize I need to rely on God, I need the Holy Spirit to work in my life; but what can I do to make that happen? How do I walk in the power of the Holy Spirit?” Barbara: For me, it was very much an on-going process. It was a growth that happened over decades. But, in that moment, as much as I knew how, in that day of my life, I said: “Father, I want to trust You more. I want to be filled with the Spirit. I want You to control my life. I want You to give me the power and the strength to live the way that You want me to live—to do this thing called marriage that You've designed. This was Your idea in the first place; so therefore, You know how to make a marriage work. I want to depend on You more than I have in the past.” I believe that I did; but then there came another point, on down the road, where God said: “Okay; now, you need to step it up a notch. You need to trust Me some more,”— I was trusting myself again too much. There was another lesson; and then, a few years later, another one. I think that, just as our children grow up, incrementally, through the years—they don't go from being a baby to being 18 overnight. Physical growth is a slow process. There are all kinds of little things going on in their bodies, as they grow up, that we can't even see. It does take a long time for an infant to become an adult. I think the journey is similar in our spiritual growth. We start out as spiritual infants. God gently and slowly works in our lives and our circumstances so that we become mature adults, spiritually, and don't remain infants. Bob: One of the areas where you had to learn to rely on the power of the Holy Spirit in your own life was when you decided you wanted to do a make-over project on your husband; right? Barbara: [Laughing] Yes, I did that. Bob: This was Extreme Makeover. Is that what you were—back before it was on TV—you were— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: It felt that way! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes, it probably did. What is so sad about this story is that I really thought I was doing the right thing! I was a Christian and I thought: “Okay; if there are some problems”—and there were—“if there are some things that I think are not right in our relationship”—and there were those things that I thought weren't right—“What are you supposed to do about it? You're supposed to pray about it; aren't you? Yes, that makes sense.” I made this list—I began to make a list of all the things that I thought were not right—primarily were not right about him / not so much things that weren't right about me—because I really didn't think there were that many things— Bob: That was a small list / little, tiny list. So you're setting off to try to fix—what kinds of things were you trying to fix? Barbara: You know, that's what's sad—I can't even remember what they were—but I'm quite sure it was all personality related because, as Dennis said earlier—he would get an idea, and [snaps fingers] process it that fast, and he'd be off and running. He didn't think things through thoroughly like I did. He was much more spontaneous and spur of the moment. I'm sure it was related to these personality differences that I saw, early on. I made this list, and I thought that the right thing to do was to pray about all the stuff that needed to be changed in his life. Dennis: It was a long list too. Bob: Well—[Laughing] Barbara: It wasn't really that long. [Laughter] Bob: Is there something wrong with a wife identifying: “These are areas that I think God needs to be at work in my husband's life, and I'm going to pray about God doing that work”? Barbara: Yes; I think it's probably not a real good approach. Bob: Really?! Barbara: Really; because what happened to me is—I had this list of 10 or 12 things. I prayed about them every day. What happened was—I thought about them all day after I repeated them to God in the morning. I would say: “Okay, God. Here are the things I think You need to work on in his life.” It was as if they were written in neon block letters on his back. Every time I saw him, I saw what was wrong because I was reminding myself, every day——before God, of course—but nonetheless, I was reminding myself every day of what I didn't like and what I thought needed to be fixed. I decided—after doing this for a couple of weeks—I thought: “You know, I don't like the way this feels. This is not really a fun way to approach God.” It's not fun—the results in my marriage—I just didn't like the fact that I was constantly seeing all these things that I didn't like. Bob: [To Dennis] Did you have any idea there was neon on your back? Dennis: I think I did know about the list. Bob: Really? Dennis: I do, and I think I definitely felt it when she threw the list away. Barbara: That doesn't surprise me— Dennis: Yes. Barbara: —because I felt it when I threw the list away too. Dennis: I mean, all of a sudden, I've got my friend back instead of my judge. Bob: What prompted you to throw the list away? Barbara: I just began to realize that this wasn't fun. I didn't like focusing on everything that I thought was wrong with him. I thought: “You know, I didn't used to feel this way. I used to like all these things about him, and now I don't.” It wasn't this great revelation—I just thought: “You know—this isn't fun. I don't like the way this makes me feel. I don't like the flavor in our relationship.” I told God specifically one day—and I remember saying this—I said: “God, if You want to change these things in his life, it is Your business. I am not going to ask You about this anymore because I don't like what this is doing to our relationship. If You never change him, that is fine with me. It's Your business, not mine. I'm going to move forward and not pray about all these things that I think need to be corrected anymore.” I tore up the list, and I literally threw it away. Within days, I wasn't thinking about all that stuff anymore. Dennis: You know— Barbara: It was a great relief. Dennis: There's a common thread here—to what she's talking about—that I want Barbara to comment because this has been a theme of her life. You're talking about, first of all, coming to the end of yourself, not once, but on multiple occasions, where you realize you couldn't do this thing called “being a wife” / you couldn't do this thing called “being a mom”—and you couldn't change your husband. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: It's not you that's going to do any of this. You came to the conclusion that it had to be Christ in you and you yielded to Him. Barbara: Exactly. Dennis: What would you say to a wife, who's listening, who's going: “Got me! I'm raising my hands, saying, ‘That's me you're describing'”? What's the hope? What's the solution?—not in terms of a formula—but what does she need to begin to practice? Barbara: I think the bottom line is going to be the same for the rest of your life; that is—when God brings you to a place that you realize you cannot do this thing called marriage, you can't do this thing called mothering, you can't even do the Christian life on your own—that you come to Him and you say: “I give up. I surrender. I need You. Will You empower me? Will you fill me with Your Spirit? Will You lead me?” because it really is coming to a point of giving up because what I was doing, when I was praying for you, is—I was trying to take over. I was trying to tell God what I thought He needed to do in your life. I realized that I needed to give up. I need to let God do what He wanted to do, in His timetable. I basically—in essence, by saying, “I'm not going to do this anymore,'—I surrendered and I said, “Your will, not mine.” Bob: You know, just about every time I speak at a Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway—first night, I'll say, “If you brought your spouse here, hoping that together we could get her fixed or get him changed, I have bad news for you.” [Laughter] I say, “I'm not even going to be talking to your spouse this weekend. The only person I came here to talk to is you.” I think sometimes— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —rather than focusing on, “God change this other person,”— Dennis: Yes. Barbara: Yes. Bob: —our prayers need to be redirected: “Lord, change me.” Barbara: Exactly. Bob: I had to chuckle, Barbara, because, at the end of this “Note to Your Daughters,” as you shared this story—you said, “More stories about my failures to come. [Barbara laughing] Love you, Mom.” Really, this collection of letters that you've written to you daughters are lessons you've learned— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —some of them through not doing it right. Barbara: Oh, lots of them learned through not doing it right because I think that's when God gets our attention. When we're sailing along, and everything's smooth, that's when we don't think we need God; but when we realize we can't do it, and we're making mistakes, then we go, “Okay; then maybe—maybe I need some help— Bob: Yes. Barbara: —“and God needs to be my help.” Dennis: —“and Jesus is that help.” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: If the story of Easter is true—and it is / Christ is alive from the dead—then He can make this claim—He said in John 15, “I am the true vine.” Later on, in the same passage, He says, “As a branch cannot bear fruit by itself,”—does that sound familiar? Bob: Yes. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: “You can't do it on your own!”—“As a branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in Me and I in him, he it is who bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” If you've come to the end of yourself, it's a good thing! Barbara: It is—and that's what God was trying to show me through this story and many, many other circumstances in my life. He was saying: “Apart from Me you can do nothing. Do you get it?” Dennis: And I think life— Barbara: And I said, “Yes!” Dennis: And I think life is one long process of Him saying, “Do you get it yet?” Barbara: Yes, it is. Dennis: “Do you get it now?” [Laughter] Bob: And one long process of surrender because we keep doing it, as you said, over and over again. I think, in addition to the surrender then, there needs to be godly counsel that helps point us in the right direction—to help us correct the patterns that are the patterns of the flesh that are with us and point us to new habits, that are spiritually-informed and spiritually-motivated. Barbara, I think you are helping to provide the wise counsel for a lot of wives in what you've shared today and what you've written in your brand-new book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. We've got the book in our FamilyLifeToday Resource Center. It's brand-new—just now out in stores. We'd love for you to have a copy. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Ask about the book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife by Barbara Rainey when you get in touch with us. We want to say a quick, “Congratulations!” and “Happy Anniversary!” to our friends, David and Diana Aguilar, who live in Union, Missouri. Today is their 29th wedding anniversary. The Aguilars listen to KSIV, out of St. Louis. They've been married since 1987. We are the “Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries,” here at FamilyLife. We're celebrating our 40th anniversary this year; but honestly, it's not our anniversary that matters—it's all of the anniversaries that have happened because of how God has used FamilyLife in the lives of so many couples over the last 40 years. It's been humbling to be a part of that whole process. If you help support this ministry, as a Legacy Partner or as somebody who gives an occasional donation, you've been a part of the process as well. Your support is what makes FamilyLife Today possible. We could not exist and could not do what we do if it weren't for friends, like you, who help make this happen. This month, we are praying and asking God that He would raise up 20 new families in every state where FamilyLife Today is heard to be new Legacy Partners, joining with us here at FamilyLife. Would you consider being one of those new Legacy Partner families? All you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click where it says, “DONATE.” The information about becoming a Legacy Partner is available there. Or call: 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”; and say, “I'm interested in becoming a Legacy Partner.” Be sure to join us back tomorrow. We're going to continue talking about a wife's responsibility in her marriage. We'll talk tomorrow about what happens when a woman wants to be a helper but it starts to go bad—and it can do that. We'll talk about that tomorrow. Hope you can be here. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. 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Being His Helper

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 7, 2020 24:59

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Being His Helper Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 3 of 3) Bob: The Bible calls women to be helpers to their husbands; but as Barbara Rainey points out—sometimes, when you're trying to help, you're not helping. Barbara: I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson—it's that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah! I need to be his friend. We're peers, we're equals, we're teammates; and we can work this out together,” rather than it—letting it become this great obstacle. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 17th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How can a wife be a helper to her husband? 1:00 We're going to explore that today with Barbara Rainey. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I had somebody share something with me a long time ago. I always thought this was interesting—they were talking about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our life. They were saying that the word for the Holy Spirit in the Bible is the word, Paraclete. Dennis: Right. Bob: What they said was: “There's a difference between a paraclete and a parasite. A parasite is something that attaches itself to you and just sucks the life out of you.” Dennis: Right. Bob: “A paraclete is something that attaches itself to you and pours life into you.” I mean, that's always stuck with me. I've thought, “That's not only true of our relationship with the Holy Spirit—He does attach Himself to us and pours life into us—but all of our relationships tend to be parasite or paraclete relationships”; don't you think? Dennis: They do. It's interesting— 2:00 —that in the Scripture, God refers to Himself as our Helper. I think the Holy Spirit is our Helper. Bob: Yes. Dennis: He comforts us / He gives us the power to live the Christian life. Bob: Jesus said, “I will send another Helper,”—indicating that He had been the Helper. So Helper really—God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit—are all identified as “Helper.” Dennis: That's right; but if you go all the way back to the beginning of the Bible, the first use of the word, “helper,” is not referring to God but referring to the woman that God made for man. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I know, for Barbara, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today—Barbara, welcome back. Barbara: Thank you. Dennis: She's written a book that is—was first written for our daughters, as they married, and our daughters-in-law as they married our sons. One of the first sections of the book talks about the role of being a helper. You believe that's important; don't you? Barbara: I do. I think that we have come to think of helper in a more negative sense——more as a servant. 3:00 Yet, when you go back to the very beginning—as you were just talking about a minute ago—and realize that God used that term to describe the woman / to describe Eve when He made her. He called her helper before the whole thing broke down and fell apart in the Garden. It wasn't Plan B—it wasn't: “Oh, well; now, that you've made mistakes, and I'm kicking you out of the Garden, and you're going to have to start living in a different place—now, you have to be the helper,”—it was helper from the very beginning. If we really focus on that, and think about that, it means that I was made, as a female, to be a helper—I was built for that, I was fashioned for that, I was designed for that. It's not a second thought / it's not Plan B—it's not an afterthought. It's intuitive in who I am, as a female, to be helper in the same way that God is helper to us. Bob: You say, in the book—when you got married, you say, “I was eager to begin being my husband's helper; but beyond cooking for him and doing our laundry, I honestly had no idea what the concept / the assignment really meant.” 4:00 Barbara: Yes. Bob: I think there are a lot of women who, when they hear the term, “helper,”—they think, “What is it if it's not cooking, cleaning, and laundry?” Barbara: Those things are a part of what each individual couple works out—who does the cooking / who does the laundry. All of that is a creative blend of the two that are in the marriage unit. And often— Bob: Who does the cooking at your house? I'm just curious— Barbara: Well, you know, right now, he does! [Laughter] Dennis: But for the past 35 years, she did! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes. Bob: You've given— Dennis: So I've got—I've got a long time—[Laughter] Barbara: I delegated! [Laughter] Dennis: —I've got a long time to catch up in this deal. Barbara: Yes; yes. We have traded places on that one; but the point is—is that, oftentimes and through the centuries, most women have done those tasks in the marriage relationship. That isn't really what helper is all about. Helper is far greater than that—it's me completing my husband. 5:00 It's me—and who I am, and the way God made me, as a woman and as an individual—completing him, making him better than he is on his own or making him more complete / more fulfilled. It's me helping him, though the years, become all God intended for him to be. It's far more of a person-building / it's far more of a relationship-building concept than it is just tasks around the house, which is what we've relegated it to. Bob: The phrase I used—the paraclete—to attach yourself to him and pour life into him. Barbara: Yes. Bob: There really is something that a wife can—she can pour life into her husband; can't she? Barbara: Oh, absolutely. That's why I have written about it in this section—about the example that the Holy Spirit is to us because the Holy Spirit does give us life. I think, in ways that we, as women, don't realize—we give life to our husbands. I think the analogies between the two are great. Bob: You're not saying your role is to be the Holy Spirit to your husband. 6:00 Barbara: No. [Laughter] I am not to be the Holy Spirit, and convict him of sin, any more than he is to be Jesus Christ for me. But we model— Bob: But you can learn; yes. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Yes. Barbara: —he models and imitates what Christ did in His sacrifice—and I can model my helping and being a helper after what the Holy Spirit does for us. Dennis: Before we talk about what it means to truly be the helper, one of the things you believe strongly that it's not—is it's not being your husband's mother. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Explain what you mean by that. Barbara: I think what happens is—when we women have children and we become, not just wife, but wife and mother—there are a lot of things that we do, as mother, that are helping tasks. We're constantly helping our children get dressed, we're helping learn to tie their shoes, we help them learn to read, we help them with their homework, we help them get dressed, we help them in relationship issues when they've got friends and they've got problems in elementary school, junior high, and high school. 7:00 We are very much a helper with our children, but it's an authoritative kind of helper. I'm the one in charge, and my child is to follow me. What happens so often in marriage is—that we wives forget sometimes to switch from being helper as mother to being helper as wife—and they're very different. I'm not an authority with my husband / I'm not his teacher. For me to help him as if I am his teacher and he is to be my pupil—that's backwards / that's wrong. That's not the kind of relationship that I'm supposed to have with him as a helper. Bob: And you're supposed to be able to switch gears on the fly on that kind of a deal? Barbara: Yes, I think so; but that's where it gets tricky. [Laughter] Bob: So what does it look like if it's not the kind of helper you would be with a kindergartener or a seventh grader? How is it different? Barbara: It's different because I have a peer-relationship with my husband—we are equals. I am not a peer with my child—I'm an authority with my child. That's the fundamental difference. 8:00 For instance, Dennis and I had a conversation not too long ago. I don't know if you'll remember this—but we recently remodeled our living room. We got our couch recovered—because the kids are gone, we got it recovered in a very light color fabric, which I would have never done when we were raising kids. Now, that it's just the two of us—we can handle this. Not long after we had finished the remodeling, we had gotten the couch back from being reupholstered. We were eating, and Dennis wanted to eat in the living room. He plopped down on the couch— Bob: I know where this is going. [Laughter] Barbara: —with his plate. Bob: Yes! [Laughter] Dennis: Never happened at your place; has it Bob? Bob: It wasn't spaghetti; was it? I hope it wasn't spaghetti. Barbara: No, it wasn't spaghetti—I don't know what it was. As we sat there, I'm thinking: “This isn't going to work. This isn't what I had in mind. I don't think this is a really good place to be eating our dinner.” We began—we had a conversation; and I said, “What would you think about always eating over there at the table?” He said, “I really would like to eat and watch TV some.” 9:00 Anyway, the point is that we talked through: “Where would be an acceptable place for him to eat, in the living room, where he could watch TV—watch a football game on Saturday afternoon.” We decided the couch is not where he would eat. He would eat over there in the chair—it's on a part of the carpet that doesn't stain as easily as the part in front of the couch does. Dennis: Actually, what she encouraged me to do is run— Barbara: So are you saying you don't remember it this way? [Laughter] Dennis: —run an extension cord outside and eat it in a lawn chair in front of the TV in the yard. [Laughter] Barbara: Where there is a hose! [Laughter] Bob: You didn't put a bib on him or [Laughter] say, “You sit in this chair.” Dennis: We were just talking about being a mother; were we not? Barbara: That's right; we were! Bob: That's what—so this is an illustration of how you help your husband? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, it's an illustration of how I—yes, how I help him [Laughter] eat like an adult— Dennis: We worked it out. Barbara: We did! Dennis: We worked it out, and it is okay. I do think the point is—if you listen carefully to the illustration Barbara gave, we had a discussion. Barbara: —as peers. 10:00 I wasn't telling you that you couldn't eat on the couch—I said: “Would you be willing to eat over there?” / “Could we work out a compromise?” was the gist of the conversation. Dennis: What I'd want a man to hear in the midst of this is that he has a very important assignment—to respect his wife, and her opinion, and her values, and what she's about at that point—not just do what he wants to do. Philippians 2—we've quoted that many times, here on FamilyLife Today: “…not merely looking out for your own interests but for the interests of others.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: These little confrontations we're talking about here are a clash of values. They don't have to turn out and become where the wife ends up being the mother of the husband. Bob: You tell about, how in your marriage—when you are travelling, back in the days before cell phones— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —you used to mother your husband in the airport? Barbara: Yes. You know what's interesting about this dilemma for women is—I don't think we start out with that kind of an attitude. 11:00 I think we genuinely/sincerely want to help. It just sort of evolves into a more parental attitude without even trying. For instance, in the airport, when we used to travel before cell phones, Dennis would always want to make good use of his time. He'd walk across the area to another gate—wherever there happened to be a pay phone—and he would start making phone calls. I would sit in the waiting area and watch as every last passenger boarded the plane. They were about to close the door, and he was still on the phone. Initially, I remember thinking: “He must not know that they're boarding the plane. He must have not been paying attention.” I would get up and go over, and motion at the gate, and motion at my watch. He'd go, “I know; I know.” He'd get off the phone, and we'd get on the plane. Then the next time I would do the same thing. After a while, I started to become irritated because I thought, “I have to remind him all the time.” Dennis: How many flights have we missed? Barbara: Well, that's the point! We never missed a flight because you were on the phone! [Laughter] 12:00 But initially, I genuinely thought he didn't know what time it was and that he didn't—he was so engaged in the phone call that he didn't realize they were boarding. I wanted to help so that we didn't miss the flight. Over time, it became more of a parental attitude on my part. Dennis: I was going to say—I was going to say that—parental. Barbara: It really was because I thought: ‘What's the deal? Why can't he get off the phone, and we can board with everybody else?” Then I started becoming critical. So my point is—is that I think what we struggle with, as wives, is not necessarily starting out with a condescending attitude or a parental attitude. We really, genuinely want to help from our hearts; but it just sort of goes downhill sometimes. Dennis: Let me take that, as an illustration though, and just ask this question: “How can a wife, in a situation like that, be a true helper?” The point here is—you're not going to answer that question in the heat of the moment. You do it some other time when you're not travelling. 13:00 The wife just simply says to her husband, “When everybody's boarding, what would you like me to do?” Barbara: Exactly—which is what I finally did. Dennis: “Would you like me to come over and let you know, or am I to just trust you with that?” At that point— Barbara: Yes. Dennis: —it is two peers respecting each other—and the husband feeling like he's being trusted. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: He may—as I did—he may want her help. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Okay? That's good! You're working as teammates at that point. I think, at critical times like this—we allow these little rough spots like this to become major disagreements—at which we have a big argument and it ends up ruining the trip. Bob: As I read through this part of the book, I have to confess to you that I think one of the challenges that I think a lot of wives / a lot of women struggle with is the issue of control. Barbara: Yes; definitely. Bob: “I want to be in control of my environment. I feel safer if I'm in control of things.” Barbara: No question; no question. 14:00 Bob: So this impulse to want to be a helper—sometimes is not, “I want to help my husband,”—it's: “I want to manage my husband— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“and control my husband because I feel more comfortable.” You're waving and saying, “Everybody else is boarding,”—not because you're trying to help him—but because you're getting nervous, and you'd like to get on the plane. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And he needs to hurry up and get on there with you. Barbara: No question. Bob: It's not helping—it's controlling. Barbara:And that's why I'm saying it's a difficult thing because I think, in most women's hearts, we do start out—in the early years, especially—genuinely wanting to help. It switches somewhere, along the line—to becoming a control issue, to becoming a management issue, to becoming a critical issue—where I am being his mother and not his helper. I'm being his parent and not his partner. I think that is the lesson is that we, as women / we, as wives, need to be aware—that that shift happens—and to recognize when it does and to say: “Oh yeah; I'm being his mother, not his partner. 15:00 “I need to be his friend—we're peers, we're equals, we're teammates—and we can work this out together rather than letting it become this great obstacle. Dennis: So for wives—as they look at the subject of being a helper to their husbands—here's the question I would encourage every wife to ask her husband: “Sweetheart, how can I be a better, customized helper to you?” because I really believe, Bob, if we could somehow zoom back and look at an individual marriage through God's eyes—I believe He's made the husband and the wife for one another. He made them with differences—with unique strengths, and abilities, and weaknesses—so they need each other and so they complement each other. I think many couples can live a lifetime and never ever understand how the wife— specifically: “In what areas / how can she be a customized helper for her husband?”— 16:00 —and then take good notes at what he says. Barbara: Well, and that's what I—one of the points that I really am hoping will come across in this book to my daughters—I want them to see the beauty that God has made in marriage—that the way I help my husband is different than the way Mary Ann helps you, Bob— Bob: Yes. Barbara: —different than the way my daughters will help their husbands because my husband needs something different than you would need. That's the wonderful thing about marriage. God gave us very few rules for marriage—He gave us some guidelines to run on / some very specific things in Scripture—but He didn't give us a hundred things to do in marriage. He gave us very few. Within that wonderful definition of marriage that we get out of Scripture, there is endless ability to be creative because we are two unique people. God wants us to design a unique relationship between the two of us. 17:00 Bob: Okay; I've got two questions. The first is: “There are some wives who are hearing this and going, ‘Well shouldn't this thing work both ways? I mean, why am I the helper? Shouldn't he be the helper to me too? Aren't we supposed to help one another?'” You're talking about teammates—so you're the helper, but he's the helper too; right? Barbara: Yes; I think Dennis should answer that, but I think the real bottom line is—is that God has called men to serve. In that serving—of the husband serving the wife—that's how he helps. He's not given the title of helper, but he's given the title of servant-leader. That's how he would help his wife. Dennis: Yes, I think Barbara mentioned the key term there—servant-leader. A husband is given the title, in Ephesians 5, “head,”—he is the authority. The buck does stop with him. He has responsibility to deny himself, to love his wife as Christ loved the church, and to be—as Barbara said—a servant-leader of her and meeting her needs. I don't think a husband—in the sense of what we're talking about a wife being a helper—is to be his wife's helper. 18:00 I think he's to be—the servant, the lover, the leader, the nourisher, the cherisher of her soul, and to look out for her best interest, and her horizons, and maximize her life—but he's got a different assignment— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —with her than she has with him. Bob: Well, in fact, I was meeting with a group of guys recently. We were talking about this designation of servant-leader. We all kind of agreed that maybe it would be better to refer to husbands as shepherd-leaders than servant-leaders because the servant idea can—can almost make it sound like: “As long as your wife's happy, you're doing what you need to do.” That's the trap I fell in, for years—was to think, ‘As long as Mary Ann's happy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“then I'm—I'm being what God wants me to be.” It's not necessarily her momentary happiness that I should be focused on— Dennis: No, it's not. Bob: —it's the shepherding and leading of her—wisely, gently, carefully, feeding, guiding, caring for her. 19:00 Dennis: —protecting. Bob: That's right. So it was a—it was a helpful metaphor— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —to say: “A man should be a shepherd-leader and a wife should respond and should help in that process.” My other question, though, for you is for the wife who would say: “If I went to my husband and said, ‘How would you like me to be your customized helper?' he would say, ‘Get off my back and leave me alone! Just let me do what I want to do.'” Dennis: But that's not a good answer. Bob: So does she tell him that?! Barbara: Well, I think she frames the question a little differently. I think she says, in a particular situation—like, when Dennis and I were travelling, I could have said to him, “Is there anything I can do to help you so that we can get on our flight on time?” rather than some generic question that he might not be able to put words to. It'd be much better if she said, “How can I help you when we are…” or “…when this situation happens?” or “How can I encourage you when you've had a bad day at work?” If she will be specific, then she might get a more specific answer that would be easier for her to perhaps know what to do with. 20:00 Bob: But if he says, “Just leave me alone,” how does she respond to that? Barbara: I think she needs to say: “What do you mean by leave you alone? What do you want me to back off on?” I think—if she really, genuinely wants to be a better helper—then she needs to ask some follow-up questions / find out: “What does he mean by that?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: I think, over a lifetime together, this is a great question to interact about. In fact, we'd been married for 38 years before the thought ever occurred to me. I was talking to Barbara about her book—just to explore a little bit: “What have we learned in our marriage about how you are a great helper to me?” One of the areas she is—is she's a wise counsellor. Bob: Yes. Dennis: She gives me the perspective that I most count on for my life, from a human perspective. Now, I go to the Bible for my guidance and to guide in prayer; but she's my closest friend—knows me well, looking out for my best interest in multiple ways. 21:00 I go to her for her advice, her counsel, and her perspective. She is a great— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —helper in that area. I think, for a man, if he can just pull back and ask—if you've been married 10 years: “How is your wife a great helper to you? How do you see her having been designed by God to help you?” Another way for Barbara is—and I told her this—she brings great beauty to my life. She's an artist—she likes design / she notices things years before I do. [Laughter] Then she points them out and I enjoy them. Because of her in my life—not only is she beautiful—but she brings beauty to my life and an appreciation for the aesthetics that God has created. Bob: She keeps the sofa looking beautiful, too, by assigning you a place to sit. [Laughter] Barbara: Now Bob, I didn't assign now— Dennis: —in the yard! Barbara: —we agreed! 22:00 Dennis: —in the garage, with the hose! [Laughter] Bob: The thing is—this is a part of the reality of marriage that you guys have, after more than 40 years of being together—you've figured out how to make all of this work. Barbara—now for you to be speaking into the lives of younger women / younger wives—I'm really excited about the book that is now available: Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife by Barbara Rainey. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com in order to request a copy of the book, or you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title is Letters to My Daughters by Barbara Rainey. Order, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us at 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, I should have you give the shout-out today to some friends of ours, Keith and Mary Kirkland, celebrating their 15th wedding anniversary today. 23:00 They live in Montgomery, Alabama—listen to WLBF. Mary is a big fan of the resources you've created for homes in the Ever Thine Home collection. They've got the Easter banner, they've got Adorenaments, they've got your “Behold the Lamb” resource—I mean, she's got a bunch of stuff in her home, and they're friends of this ministry. They've helped support the work that FamilyLife Today is doing. If it weren't for friends, like the Kirklands, FamilyLife Today couldn't do all that we do. We're listener-supported, and your donations make this ministry possible. During this month, we are hoping that God would raise up, from among our listeners, 20 new families in every state—who would be brand-new Legacy Partners—monthly donors, supporting the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We'd like to ask you to consider being one of the families in your state helping to keep FamilyLife Today on the air in this community. 24:00 You can become a Legacy Partner by going to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link that says, “DONATE,”—the information's available there—or call 1-800- FL-TODAY and say, “I want to become a Legacy Partner.” We hope to hear from you. We hope you can join us back tomorrow when we're going to talk about what's at the heart of being a godly woman. Priscilla Shirer is going to join us, and we'll talk about a godly woman's priorities tomorrow. Hope you can be here for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

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Building Up Your Man

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 7, 2020 24:49

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Building up Your Man Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 2) Bob: See if you can spot where the challenge is here: You're a wife and a mom who wants things to go right. Marriage and family is messy, and your husband isn't perfect. You see how that can be a problem? Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: One of the things that is true about us, as women—I had a conversation with my daughter just yesterday on the phone about this—is that it's so easy for us because of our emotional makeup to get very overwhelmed by the circumstances of life. So a woman, who is married and is discouraged by her relationship with her husband—she can get so overwhelmed to the point where she just doesn't see clearly. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 27th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What do you do, as a wife, when you get overwhelmed / discouraged by all that's going on? How do you deal with that? We're going to talk about it today with Barbara Rainey. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We're diving back into a rich field of ore today. I mean, there is some good stuff that we're going to be digging into. Dennis: We have some pretty fair guests on FamilyLife Today from time to time. Bob: We do; yes. Dennis: Max Lucado, Tony Evans, Crawford Loritts, Mary Kassian, Nancy Leigh DeMoss Wolgemuth—a lot of, really, pretty fair country guests. Bob: Pretty good communicators with some pretty good biblical knowledge. Dennis: Yes; this one is a cut above. Bob: Somebody who is— Dennis: —just a cut above. Bob: —kind of your favorite? Dennis: Definitely my favorite—my bride of 43 years. 2:00 Sweetheart, welcome back. Barbara: I don't know if I can live up to all of that. Dennis: That's pretty strong; wasn't it? Barbara: Very strong. Dennis: Well, our listeners love you. We were with some friends here this past weekend and ran into a number of listeners. They came up and talked to Barbara about her books and Ever Thine Home®—all the resources she's creating for wives, and moms, and women to be able to display their faith in their homes. It was kind of fun to watch them come out of the woodwork—out of a large gathering of people—come by and say, “Hi,” to Barbara and say, “I appreciate you.” Bob: Well, and a lot of buzz around your new book, which has just been out now for a few months. It's called Letters to My Daughters. This really didn't start as a book; did it? Barbara: It absolutely didn't. When our oldest son was engaged to be married, his fiancée came to me and said, “You know, I would really love to hear some encouragement from you about being a wife.” And I thought, “Wow!” Bob: She just opened the door; didn't she? 3:00 Barbara: I know. And I thought: “Wow. She opened the door. Then I'm going to gently and cautiously walk through that door.” And so I wasn't sure exactly how to go about doing it because we all lived in different places. It wasn't possible to take her out for coffee and have a conversation. So I decided I would start writing some letters—just to share some of the lessons that I had learned over the years in being a wife / just by way of encouragement and, “Here are some things that I learned, and maybe this will help you.” Bob: Did you write them one-on-one to her or did you copy everybody else when you started? Barbara: I copied all three married girls. So our oldest, Ashley, who was already married, and then our son, Samuel, had married the same summer. So it went to three married girls. Bob: Then you expanded it out as this snowballed and continued? Barbara: We traded about—I sent—I'll rephrase that—I sent about a dozen emails total. I don't know how much of it was that they didn't know me that well—so there wasn't a lot of response— 4:00 —which I understood—I mean, you know—we're talking about subjects about marriage and this is your mother-in-law. What do you say? Bob: Yes. Barbara: So I didn't get much feedback—so they kind of dried up. Then, when our daughter Rebecca got married in 2005, I went and dug them all up and sent them to her kind of as a batch / a couple of them at a time. And that really was the end of it after that—the email version. Dennis: I think what's interesting about this is the whole idea came from a couple of sources. One was a book that was famous and very popular, back when Barbara and I were college students, by Charlie Shed. It's called Letters to Karen. It wasn't Letters to My Daughter, it was—although, was Karen his daughter? Barbara: Karen was his daughter. Bob: Because I also got Letters to Phillip, which was the follow-up, which he'd written letters to his son—both of them around marriage subjects, right? Dennis: Exactly; exactly. 5:00 But there was another kind of—I don't know—birthplace of this idea of sending letters that was a part of Barbara's family. Barbara: When I was growing up, I remember my mother used to anxiously look for this large legal-size envelope that would come in the mail probably every couple of months. She had married my dad and they had moved two or three states away from where she grew up. It was a place where she knew no one. Although she developed friends, there were no family members anywhere near. She, and her mother, and some other relatives in the family, and friends had this exchange of letters, that were all handwritten, that went by the postal service. It was called a round robin. My mother would write her letter, put it in the envelope, and send it on its way, where the next person would read my mother's letter and all of the other letters that were in it. She would take out her original letter, and put in a new letter, and send the packet on its way. 6:00 It would just make this circle between these six or eight women that were a part of this group because nobody got on the phone and talked for fun in those days. You only used the phone for emergencies, or business, or important things. You didn't just get on it to chat. Letter writing was the only way that you really kept up with people who lived far away. They had this letter exchange that they passed around. I just remember, very vividly, that every time that letter came / that packet—with all those messages from home / touches with her family and friends that she didn't get to see very often—she would get a cup of coffee and sit down. She relished those letters—she read them and absorbed all that she could out of those communications from friends that she loved, and cared about, and missed deeply. That became a way for her to stay in touch with those friends. Dennis: You know, it's interesting, Bob—now, in the present age of social media and having communication so— 7:00 Bob: —tweets, and texts, and emails. Dennis: —it's so easy, you know. We have access to so much that the art of letter writing—I mean, a really good thoughtful letter—in fact, I have back on my desk a letter that was given to me by Steve Green, who is the President and CEO of Hobby Lobby, that he'd obtained that was written by Thomas Jefferson, during his presidency. It's just interesting to have a copy of a letter that's over 200 years old and to think about the words being crafted—how thoughtful it was. I think there's a need to recapture that—both personal side but also just the thoughtful side / the contemplative side of: “You're facing some issues, let me step into your life and provide some guidance in a personal way for you.” Bob: Not just shoot from the hip, but give some real thought to the response. Some of the letters—because you will print a letter in here—we should say this is not an actual letter from one of your daughters. People shouldn't read this and try to figure out which daughter was asking this question. 8:00 Barbara: Correct. Bob: You would take a composite of questions that were being asked of you—subjects that your daughters were asking you about. Dennis: —and people who were coming up to Barbara at a Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway. Bob: Right. Dennis: We have tens of thousands of people, who come to those events. When Barbara speaks, women stand in line to talk to her. These questions that are in the book are really questions that these women had asked Barbara from the Weekend to Remember. Bob: I'm looking at one of the letters that you respond to in your book. You're tackling some pretty interesting stuff here. I mean, one of these letters asks this question—it says: “Hey, Mom, sometimes I get tired of being discouraged by all the unexpected things that I have to deal with that come from the way my husband lives life. It's not just that we're different—you already wrote me about—that it's more than that. It's like I think, ‘If I didn't have him, sometimes life would be easier.'” 9:00 Now wait a sec! Do wives really feel that way? [Laughter] I mean, I'm starting to feel a little insecure here! Does a wife really feel like sometimes life would be easier— Dennis: Let me just stop you. What if your wife's name is on the book—[Laughter] Bob: You can feel real insecure now! [Laughter] Dennis: —and you're on the radio! Bob: Let me finish this—it says, “It's kind of nice when he's out of town for a few days.” This is a wife, who is saying, “Sometimes, I wonder if I'd be happier, more satisfied, more fulfilled if I didn't have a husband to deal with.” Barbara: Well, I think there are those moments when women do feel that way because the differences never go away—that's the first chapter in the book. I write in the book that it's the first and most lasting adjustment to marriage because the differences never go away. Even though I'm used to things that he brings to our world—his personality, the way he approaches life, and his maleness— 10:00 Bob: His perspective is different. Barbara: —it's very different. I think what this question is saying is—that, sometimes, when a husband travels, there feels a little bit of a: “Oh I can do things the way I want to do things. I don't have to be just thinking about what I would like to do and ‘How's this going to make him feel? How he's going to respond to this?' I can just do what I want to do.” Bob: You know, I get that because I think, for husbands—I think there's a similar— Barbara: I would expect so! Bob: —to have a break and just to be able to—times when I'm traveling, I'm focused on whatever I'm doing, traveling-wise, and— Barbara: Or if your wife goes on a women's retreat, you can just kind of veg and eat pizza all day long and not worry about anything; right? Bob: Sometimes, those breaks are nice to have; but you wouldn't want them to go on for very long. Barbara: No; no. Bob: In the midst of them, you do have a sense of something lacking, even if you're enjoying just the pause in the relationship; right? Barbara: Right. Without question because we are complete in one another, and marriage does complete that which is lacking. 11:00 I mean, God says, “The two shall become one.” There is a sense in which you can relax about some things when your husband or your wife is out of town, but there is that realization that life isn't the same without him in it. So it makes you miss one another and appreciate those differences / those things that the other person brings that are so very contradictory at times. But it is for good. Bob: When should a wife start to be concerned if she's thinking, “I kind of wish he'd go away for a few days because I really like it when he's gone.” When can she tell: “This is an okay break,” versus “No, this is us drifting toward isolation in our marriage”? Dennis: —or “This is unhealthy thinking.” Here's what we're talking about—we're talking about the very essence of marriage goes back to Genesis, where it says it was not good that man be alone. 12:00 So it says, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother; shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one.” I think we get married because there's something lacking in our lives and that something is a person. It's the completeness of a husband and a wife in a marriage relationship designed by God. The two are asked to deny themselves, and to defeat isolation, and not grow into an unhealthy relationship where you long for the times when you're going to be separated. You need to keep the relationship alive and not forget why you married the other person in the first place. God brought you together—you need to get on with it, and you need to learn how to embrace the differences. Barbara: It's okay to have a break occasionally; but the goal of marriage is being together, and becoming one, and allowing God to do his redemptive work in our lives. Dennis: Ultimately, what marriage is all about is—about two imperfect people learning how to love one another within the commitment of marriage. 13:00 Barbara: Yes. Dennis: You're going to school, with God teaching you from the Bible. I'd have to say I didn't understand that when I enrolled in this course called marriage. But looking back over four decades of marriage, I'd have to say I know more about love because of marriage than any other relationship in my life. Bob: Some of the wives, who are listening to us have this conversation, are thinking: “The negatives that you're talking about with my husband—some of these are pretty dark negatives. Some of these are negatives that cast such a shadow over the relationship that it's hard for me just to hold things together. How do I turn that into a positive? Or what do I do with those negatives? How do I deal with a husband who—man! the negatives—they're stark, and they're real, and it's really challenging?” Barbara: Yes. Bob: “I'm not married to Dennis,”—[Laughter]— 14:00 —you know, a wife, who's listening, is saying: “I'm not married to Dennis, who's a godly virtuous man, who is pursuing a walk with the Lord. I'm married to a guy who's marginally interested in spiritual things, and who's yelling at the kids, and who's drinking too much. What do I do?” Barbara: That's a very complex question because there are so many levels and degrees of what constitute negatives and difficult things in a relationship. So let me answer it two ways. One is: “Any wife has to start by looking at herself and saying: ‘Okay; God, am I accepting the man that You've put in my life? Am I giving thanks for him in his strengths and his weaknesses? Am I looking to You to do the transforming work?'” because you even said in your question / a woman says: “What can I do? How do I relate to him and help transform him?” Well, it's not the wife's job. I think we so easily get caught up in thinking that it's our responsibility to fix him / to change him. 15:00 We do that with our kids—we're always helping our kids. We talked about that on another broadcast that helping a husband is different than helping your kids. But it starts by her attitude and her perspective, and her belief in God and His sovereignty, and His ability to work. It starts with where she's focusing her eyes—is she looking at all of the negative in his life to such a degree that she's totally forgotten all the good that there is? My first challenge is to her: “Are you open to God being at work? Have you totally given up on Him? Are you giving thanks for your relationship the way it is?” And then the other side is: “If it really is indeed very, very difficult things that are beyond a woman's responsibility to deal with, you may need to see a counselor, you may need to get a pastor or someone who's wise and skilled to intervene—to help you, to coach you, to guide you. Find an older woman who can be your mentor to help give you perspective. 16:00 One of the things that's true about us, as women—I had a conversation with my daughter just yesterday on the phone about this—is that it's so easy for us, because of our emotional makeup, to get very overwhelmed by the circumstances of life. So a woman—who is married and is discouraged by her relationship with her husband—she can get so overwhelmed to the point that she just doesn't see clearly. That's why a mentor is so helpful—someone who can look at it objectively and say: “You know, it's probably not as bad as you think it is. Let me give you one or two things that you can try—one or two practical suggestions that might make a difference for you,” because we do lose perspective and we do—we just get all out of sorts. It's very common for us, as women, to get discouraged with our marriages because we're just discouraged about life in general. So check your heart. 17:00 Find someone to help you / find a mentor—find another woman who can speak objectively into your life and say, “It may not be as bad as you think it is, and here are some things you can try.” Dennis: What I'd say to my daughters is—I'd say: “Do you remember when you'd get up in the morning and see your mom reading the Bible? What was that symbolic of? It was that your mom was teachable, that she was trying to meet with God, and ultimately that her hope was in God.” So the woman, who's listening to us right now, who has lost hope—she's got to have a spiritual thermometer check: “How's your relationship with God?” You've got to be reminded of who He is, how He operates in this imperfect world that we live in, and what he's calling us to do, which is live and walk by faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. Barbara: I just want to say to the moms, who are listening, who've got a houseful of kids—or even maybe one or two kids, but it feels like a full house to you—I did not get up every morning and read my Bible. 18:00 My kids didn't see me doing that every day. I just don't want anyone listening to think that I was that woman that got up every morning and read my Bible. There were weeks that I would go by and not read my Bible in the morning. I would talk to God, and I would pray, and I would try to catch snippets of the Bible here and there in different places; but I was pretty overwhelmed and pretty buried with kids and with life. Yes, I totally agree with what you just said, Dennis, that it is absolutely crucial that your hope is in God and no place else. Your hope can't be in your husband because he will fail, that's a given. Put your hope in God, and keep it there, and do all that you can to maintain that. I just don't want anybody to feel like there's this standard of: “I have to get up and read my Bible every morning before my kids are up.” If you can do that, great! I couldn't do that, and I failed miserably many times; but my hope remained in Christ for the most part. 19:00 Dennis: There is a Proverb that I was thinking about as I was thinking about our listeners today, who are going to hear Barbara on this subject—it is Proverbs, Chapter 4, verse 23—we quote it quite frequently, here on FamilyLife Today—it says, “Keep your heart with all vigilance for from it flow the springs of life.” You may not be able to get in the Bible every day—I'm glad you said that, just to remove this mythical phantom that exists of the super spiritual mom, but your heart needs to know whom it is that you serve / who is your hope—and you need to cultivate that. I'm glad you mentioned a mentor, or a friend, or even a counselor if things really go south—or to keep them from going south—someone that you can lean into and you can spill out your emotions in safety and talk about it— 20:00 —not just being negative but try to find someone who can coach you out of the ditch that you may be in. That's what church is all about / that's what the community of faith—of Christ followers ought to be about. We ought to be meeting each other in our ditches and saying: “You know what? It's safe. We're all broken. There is nobody who's got it all together!” But to maybe dig in with a group of women into a book like this, Bob, and decide: “We're going to get real with each other. We're going to get honest, and we're going to make sure our hope is in the right place.” Bob: I was going to say—at one level, that's what this book is all about. It is a mentoring book. It is an older woman mentoring younger women on what it means to be a wife according to God's design. Dennis: I would just like to say here—and I know I'm biased—so the listeners—they already know that / they've already heard me talk about Barbara in the past—I'm biased toward her. This is not a fluffy, feel-good book. 21:00 This is a real-life book that talks about where you are living, as a woman, wife, mom, grandmother. I think it is life-giving—it's the words of a wise woman that are bringing life to others because she's reminding people of the truth. People today need to get away from the culture, and the messages of the culture, and the messages of all their buddies on Facebook® or Twitter®, and they need to dig in deep with someone who'll tell them the real truth and nothing but the truth. Bob: If it was just you and this book alone, that would be good for your soul; but if it could be you and three or four other women and this book together, I think that just adds a dimension to where there's wisdom in a multitude of counselors / there's life-on-life happening. There's a support that can happen there. Dennis: Yes. 22:00 Bob: I'd encourage women to get together with three or four other women and get a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters. We have a downloadable discussion guide that is available so that you and your friends can go through this book together, and then, there are questions you can ask. Again, you can find out more when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Order the book from us, online, at FamilLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you'd like to order a copy of Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's the new book by Barbara Rainey. Now, we have an anniversary we want to acknowledge today—Rick and Jill Bridges from Whittier, California, celebrating six years of marriage together. “Congratulations!” to the Bridges on their sixth anniversary. FamilyLife is celebrating an anniversary this year as well—it is 40 years of ministry for us / we started back in 1976. 23:00 Our whole goal with this ministry is to help more couples have more anniversaries. We want to provide you with practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family so that you have more years together—more years where you are thriving, as a couple and as a family. We want to effectively develop families, who are anchored firmly in God's Word. We appreciate those of you who partner with us in this effort. FamilyLife Today could not exist if it weren't for friends, like you, who help support this ministry with your donations. Thank you for the part you play in helping to make FamilyLife Today possible. By the way, if you'd like a copy of Barbara Rainey's new book, we are making that available to anyone who makes a donation today. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com make an online donation and get a copy of the book. Or request the book when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation. Or you can mail your donation to us, along with your request for Barbara's book. 24:00 Our address is FamilyLife Today, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. We want to talk more tomorrow about how a wife can stay positive and stay focused on affirming her husband, even when things aren't going well / even when he's not doing a great job. We're going to talk more about that tomorrow. Hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Praising the Positive

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 7, 2020 24:53

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Praising the Positive Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Barbara Rainey has some advice for wives. She says, when you're husband messes up—and, by the way, he will—when it happens, how you respond may determine whether he learns anything from his mistake or not. Barbara: If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area where he just blew it royally. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, April 28th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. The words you say have profound power in your marriage relationship. We'll examine that subject with Barbara Rainey today. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Have you ever stopped to just ponder who you would be: (A) if you had been single all your life or (B) if you'd married somebody other than Barbara? Dennis: Yes; I guess I have because I tried to marry a young lady from SMU before Barbara and I started dating. Bob: You proposed? Dennis: She didn't want to marry me. No, no. It wasn't at that point. Bob: It was clear enough that you didn't— Dennis: But there was a DTR—a “define the relationship.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: How she defined it and how I defined it—[Laughter]—“Thumbs down, baby!” Bob: Okay. Dennis: “Thumbs down!! You're out of here!” [Laughter] 2:00 It was good because—it was okay because I wasn't in search of a myth. I wanted a real relationship with a real person. Back to the previous part of the question, though, Bob: “Have I ever thought about who I would be if I hadn't married Barbara and was single?” I have. I don't visit that picture very often because that's a horror film. [Laughter] Bob: Pretty ugly; huh? [Laughter] Dennis: She's laughing really hard because she knows what happened behind the curtain. [Laughter] Bob: Are you saying, “Amen,” to that? Is that what— Barbara: No, I just think that's funny that he said it would be a horror film because I don't think it would be that bad. Dennis: Well, I don't know what you would compare marriage to—that teaches you how to love, that instructs you in how to sacrifice for another person, to care for, to cherish, to nourish, and to call you away from yourself and force— 3:00 —I mean, if you're going to do marriage God's way, it is the greatest discipleship tool that has ever been created in the history of the universe. It demands that both a husband and a wife pick up their cross, follow Christ, deny themselves, and ask God, “Okay, God, what do You want me to do in this set of circumstances?” Bob: And that's true. It works both ways—for husbands and wives—but our focus this week is on the responsibility a wife has—the privilege she has / the assignment she has—from God to be the helper that He's created her to be. Barbara, we're talking about some of the themes that are found in your book, Letters to My Daughters, which is just out. We're getting a lot of great feedback from women who have gotten copies of this book and started reading it. Some women recoil at the idea that they're called to be helpers—it sounds demeaning to them. Your book affirms that it's a noble thing that God is calling wives to. 4:00 Barbara: It is a very noble assignment that God has given us. It's equally noble, I think, to the calling that God has put on a man's life too. What makes it even better is that, together, marriage is a high and holy calling—it says that in Scripture. It also says that it's a mystery. I think that's the part that we wish God hadn't said about it because it would be nice if it was a little bit more black and white / more obvious. But God says it is a mystery. God is an artist / God is an author—God didn't make robots. So figuring this out—this uniqueness / this relationship that Dennis and I have that's unlike anybody else's relationship on the planet—just as your marriage with Mary Ann is unlike anybody else's on the planet—the ingenuity of God to create these little duos all over the planet that represent Him / that are a picture of Christ and the Church—all of that mystery is profound and baffling. 5:00 We wish sometimes that marriage was a whole lot easier, but it illustrates that marriage is a very high and noble calling. We think it is drudgery / we think it's dispensable—and it's not. Dennis: Yes. In the book that Barbara has written, called Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, you quote Mike Mason. Speaking of mysteries, he wrote a book called The Mystery of Marriage. This comes from that book—he says this: “Love convinces a couple that they are the greatest romance that has ever been, that no two people have ever loved as they do, and that they will sacrifice absolutely anything in order to be together.” Then I love the conclusion to the statement. It says, “Then marriage asks them to prove it.” Well, that's what's at stake. You've got this noble relationship that wasn't created by man—it was created by Almighty God. 6:00 His image is stamped all over a marriage that seeks to follow His blueprints for what He wants us to do. He's trying to teach us how to love—how to love sacrificially / how to give up our lives on behalf of another. You're never going to be able to do it if you try to have it your way. Bob: I would love for you to expand on something that I just had to stop and ponder for a second. You said what a wife believes about her husband is the starting place for everything she says or doesn't say about her husband. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And what you believe about Dennis is the starting place for everything you say or don't say about him. Barbara: Correct. Bob: Unpack that for me. Barbara: Well, let me explain something about photography that I think will help answer your question for you. Anybody, who has ever used a 35mm camera that has a lens that you turn so you can focus, understands the principle that the person who is holding the camera chooses what's going to be in that image. 7:00 You can choose a broad panorama and you can get as much in that frame as you can get, or you may choose to tighten that zoom lens and focus on somebody's eyes only. You've got great choice, as the photographer, in what you're going to get in that lens of the camera. And the same is true in marriage. I have complete control over what people know about my husband. If I'm talking about Dennis and I talk about his faults, or I talk about how crummy it is that he just doesn't ever do this and I think it's terrible that he doesn't ever do that, anybody who hears that description that I just made of him will think of him that way. When they think of him, they're going to remember that. But, on the other hand, if I choose to leave that out of the description, and instead, I choose to describe him for my friends, or my small group, or wherever I am talking about him, and I say: “You know, one of the things that I appreciate about Dennis is that he really makes our family a priority. 8:00 “Yes, he travels. Yes; sometimes he has to say late and work / sometimes he is gone on the weekends, but I know that his heart is to make our family a priority.” That's focusing the lens of my camera on what is good and what is right about my husband. If he knows that I'm saying that about him, he's going to want to live up to that expectation. Bob: So some wives will hear you say that and say: “You want me to airbrush my husband. You want me to just brush away and pretend like all those flaws that are there just don't exist and just pretend like he's better than he is.” Barbara: Okay. And I would say to her: “How does God see you? Is God pointing out to you the hundreds of things that you do wrong every day? Um, I don't think so. He's very gentle and very gracious, and He shows us one thing at a time that we do wrong.” 9:00 I just think: “Okay, you want to call it airbrushing? Alright, I'll take that—it may be airbrushing—but I would rather focus on what he does right than what he does wrong because—when I focus on what he does wrong, and I have done that—all I can see are the things he does wrong. They grow and they just become these huge things. I become obsessed with everything that's wrong and everything he's not doing that's right. And that's not fun! I don't like that about me! “I don't want him to be focusing on all my weaknesses and all my flaws. I don't want him talking about my weaknesses and flaws to other people because I don't like them / I don't want to be known for what is wrong with me. I want to be known for what I do well and what I do right. So the same is true for him. So, yes, I airbrush it—I don't talk about the things that he does wrong, or his weaknesses, or his flaws. That's for him to deal with before the Lord. That's not my business—that's his business.” Bob: You're not living in denial about those things? Barbara: No; no. 10:00 Dennis: That doesn't mean that the airbrush doesn't get turned off at a point. Bob: And the flaws are exposed? [Laughter] Barbara: Well, or that I talk about them with him from time to time. Dennis: Yes. Bob: And you're not being unrealistic about the nature of your relationship. Barbara: No. Bob: But I think what I hear you saying—and this goes back to where we started—what a wife says about her husband is going to begin with what she's thinking about her husband. Barbara: Correct. Bob: And she can choose— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —whether to dwell on all of his flaws or whether to set her mind on those things that are his virtues. Barbara: Yes. Bob: And every husband's got at least a couple of them; right? Barbara: Well, if he doesn't, why did you marry him? I mean, all of us got married because we admired something about this man that we fell in love with. So focus on those things. I remember, years and years ago, when we were in a new church that we were a part of—it was a fairly small church—and we had this community group of other couples that we met together every couple of weeks. 11:00 I remember standing in a small group of maybe three or four of us. This wife started talking about her husband—she was talking negatively about her husband. I'll never forget that uncomfortable feeling that all of us in that little, tiny circle felt. We just felt kind of: “Ouch! Oooh! That hurts! I don't know that I want to hear that about your husband.” And then, out of the corner of my eye, I saw him, standing not that far away. I think he had heard what she said. I have just never forgotten that picture, even though it was probably 30 years ago / maybe 20 years ago—but it was a long time ago—because I saw what the power of her words did. I saw what it did to me—it made me, as a listener, uncomfortable. It made me wonder about him, as a man. And then, when I saw that he heard, it was like an ice pick to his heart. I realized how powerful our words are as wives. 12:00 So my whole intention in what I share in this chapter about this is to help women understand that your words are very, very significant. Those who hear them are going to be influenced by what we say. Dennis: There's a proverb that is so applicable here—Proverbs 18:21: “Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.” Barbara: Yes. Dennis: So you literally have the opportunity to use your tongue like a paint brush to paint a positive picture, or like an ice pick to tear another person down. To the woman, who is listening to us—or for that matter, a man, who may be listening in right now—if you're a critical person / if you're negative, you need to ask God to do a work in your soul. 13:00 You know, no one wants to be in the corner of an attic with a cranky woman or a cranky man, who is bitter, and negative, and all they can do is find fault. That's not who you want to grow old with. What you need to ask—you need to ask God to do a work in your soul and to help release you from being critical of your husband or your wife and find a way to begin to focus on—as Barbara is calling women to do here—to focus on that which is positive in their spouse / why you married them in the first place and what you like about them. Brag on your wife / brag on your husband in front of the kids. Bob: One of the things Dennis has shared over the years—you've heard him say it—your belief in him has been massive in terms of his confidence in doing what God's called him to do. I'm just wondering: “Was that just natural to express belief in him? Was that just something that came instinctively to you; or were you conscious and deliberate about saying: ‘I need to verbalize to him. I need to express confidence in him'?” 14:00 Barbara: The answer is, “Yes,” to both because I think most of us women, when we first get married, we marry this guy because we believe in him—we think he's the greatest. Most women marry with those thoughts, those feelings, and those emotions. I think that what happens is—when we do get disillusioned, and we do find discouragements, and we butt heads because we're different—that belief can come down with it. Then, that's when it becomes a choice. In the beginning, it was really easy for me to believe in him because I just did believe in him—that's why I married him. But then there come those times, farther into the relationship, when belief becomes a choice. So rather than expressing—and it's not that I don't express fear / it's not that I don't express anxiety because I express plenty of that—but the bottom line is: “In the end, no matter what, I believe in you. I believe that God is at work in your life and in our marriage. I believe that God is going to see us through this, and I'm going to be with you there to the bitter end.” 15:00 Dennis: And what I'd want a woman to know is—that no matter how competent and confident a man looks, whether he's young or whether he's older / it does not matter—there isn't a man, within the reach of my voice right now over the radio across the country, who doesn't need his wife's steady and certain words of affirmation and belief. He needs it. I don't care if he says nothing to you when you say it. The words are sinking and soaking into his soul because there are not that many people in a lifetime—in fact, I'd ask the question, “Is there anyone who goes a lifetime with you and who believes in you all the way to the end?” The answer is, “Who would it be?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: “Who's going to do that?” That's the nature of marriage! 16:00 When you say, “I take you ‘til death do us part, for better or for worse, in riches and in being poor,”—wow! It's the pay-off! Barbara: Yes. Dennis: It's not always easy. We're not trying to paint some kind of rosy picture here, but it is a necessity. Bob: There has to have been a time—and I don't know if it will come to mind immediately for you or not—but a time when you were facing a decision and you were thinking, “I think we should do this.” And Dennis was thinking, “No, I think we should do this.” And you said: “Okay, I'm going to trust you. I'm going to follow you”; and it turned out that it would have been better off if you'd have done it your way. I'm just wondering—for a wife in that situation, where she says, “I think this is the right thing to do,” and the husband says, “We're going this way,” and they go down a dead-end and the wife finds herself, in that moment, thinking, “If he'd have just listened to me, we'd be in a lot better shape right now than we are!”— 17:00 —what does she do in that moment? Barbara: Well, I can't think of a specific time; but there have been times like, for instance, driving in the car, when he would choose to go one way and I was thinking, “I don't think that's the right way!” And, sure enough, it wasn't. That hasn't happened very often, but it has happened. I remember one time, early in our marriage, when we were discussing a financial decision. I don't remember thinking it was a bad decision at the time; but it was a bad decision, and it cost us financially. Regardless, it doesn't really matter—if it's a big thing or a small thing—because the choice is still the same in the end for a wife; that is: “Even when he makes bad decisions—and he will / when he decides to do things that will cost you—and he will—will you still believe in him? Will you still trust God? Will you put your faith in God's sovereignty that God can turn this into good in his life?” 18:00 Maybe that's exactly what he needed to experience to grow in the way God wanted him to grow. If you rail on him, and if you criticize him, and you tell him how stupid it was that he made that decision, he may not learn the lesson that God wanted for him; and he may have to repeat it again. The best thing that a wife can do is trust God, even when it's hard, and ask God to use it for good in their life and that God would use it to grow him in that area, where he just blew it royally, because men are going to make big mistakes. It's how we respond to that mistake that will make the difference in whether he benefits from it or he can't benefit from it because he's been beat up by his wife. Dennis: This is not an easy message for a lot of listeners to hear, but I just want you to comment on why you decided to write a book that is called Letters to My Daughters to call them to the art / the biblical art of being a wife because you're calling them to a high standard. 19:00 Barbara: Yes. Dennis: These are our daughters and our daughters-in-law. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Why did you want to do that? Barbara: Well, I think our culture has lost the vision for what marriage can be—what it was intended to be. Yes, we have all seen countless examples of marriage done the wrong way, but that doesn't mean marriage is broken. It means the people are broken who are in it. I want the next generation to understand that marriage is really worth working on—it is transformative, it is redemptive, it is holy. There are so many good things about marriage; but we don't see those good things, commonly, in our culture—we see all the negatives. I tell the story of: “What would it be like if you went to the Louvre Museum in Paris, with all these magnificent art works? And what if, while you were standing in line to get your ticket, there was an earthquake? 20:00 “And after you got your ticket, you walked in and half of these masterpieces were lying on the floor. There were still half of them on the wall / there were still statues and all of these magnificent things around—what would your eyes be drawn to? Your eyes would be drawn to the tragedy, to the loss, to the broken pieces lying all over the floor.” I think that's a picture of our culture. We see all of these wrecked marriages—we see these abused women, we see these lost men, we see the damaged children—and we just think: “Marriage is hopeless. Why should I even try?” What I want to do in this book is say: “Look at what's on the wall! Look at what God has said. Look at what God has designed. That is our goal. Don't get distracted by the broken pieces. It's tragic, it's wrong, it's sad; but the institution of marriage is still worthy. It's still worth striving for. 21:00 God didn't make a mistake when He made marriage. We're the ones who are messing it up. Dennis: And Bob, I think about what FamilyLife is talking about all this year in our 40th anniversary of doing ministry—calling people back to their anniversary and back to their commitment—around the whole concept of the Proud Sponsor of Anniversaries™. What Barbara is challenging people with is—just because people have failed, don't give up on what the Bible—the transcendent beauty and model of the Scriptures and what it's calling us to be, as human beings—to call us away from our selfishness, to call us to the biblical model of following Jesus Christ, and training our kids to do the same. I'm going to tell you something—there's a lot on the line in every marriage that is listening to us right now. Generations are on the line— 22:00 —your children! The best picture that they'll ever see, apart from the Scriptures, of what a real marriage ought to be is your marriage. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: Even in its imperfections, it can display what Barbara is talking about—the nobility / the grandeur. Your kids will see something—that they are going to say: “You know what? Mom and Dad could have ended it, but they didn't! They experienced the redemption of Jesus Christ. I want what they've got! When I get married, I want one of those! And I'm not going to settle for anything less.” The way they get it is by absorbing your teaching about Jesus Christ, following Him, and deciding to make their parents' faith their own. But that means the parents need to have it first. Bob: Well, and I would say that part of the way they get it, too, is by aligning themselves with God's design for us—as men and women / as husbands and wives—the unique assignment God has for us. 23:00 It's one of the issues you're addressing, Barbara, as you talk to young wives about what it means for them to be godly wives. I'd just encourage our listeners—get a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. This is a book that we're making available this month to folks who make a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com—make an online donation. You can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—make a donation over the phone; or you can mail a donation to us and request a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're happy to send it out to you as a “Thank you,” for your support of the ministry of FamilyLife. We couldn't do what we do if it weren't for folks, like you, helping to support this ministry. So “Thanks,” in advance, for whatever gift you're able to help with. We're happy to send you Barbara's new book, Letters to My Daughters, when you get in touch with us—again, online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 24:00 Now, tomorrow, we're going to hear Barbara and a number of other women interacting in a panel conversation that took place a few years ago with a large crowd of women. You were talking about God's design for you, as a woman, as a wife, and as a mom. We'll hear that dialogue tomorrow. I hope our listeners can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Surviving the Seasons of Intimacy

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 6, 2020 24:55

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Surviving the Seasons of Intimacy Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Why does it seem like moms are often not that interested in marital intimacy? Barbara Rainey understands. Barbara: It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else; and, yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority because, if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, February 7th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Barbara Rainey joins us today to talk about how she worked to make intimacy a priority in her marriage when there were six kids still living at home. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. With the season of romance and love in the air—and let me just remind some of the husbands who are listening—Valentine's Day is coming up. You may want to put that on your calendar or on your reminder list so that you don't arrive at that day and find yourself empty-handed. I've had that experience—it's not a fun experience when that happens. [Laughter] Do you know what I'm talking about? Dennis: No. [Laughter] Bob: Yes; you do! Dennis: Forty-four years; and I'm batting a thousand, Bob! [Laughter] Bob: Are you? Dennis: Ask her! She's here with us! Bob: We have an eye witness here. Barbara Rainey is joining us. Is that true? Has he never missed a Valentine's Day? Has he always had a card, or a gift, or something? Dennis: I've always shown up! Bob: Showing up is something else! [Laughter] Barbara: You have been present. 2:00 Although, I don't know that you've always been present on Valentine's because of travel. Dennis: Oh, yes! That's probably true. Barbara: Yes. Bob: Well, we thought it would be helpful today to discuss the area of sex, and intimacy, and romance, especially since this is something, Barbara—that you wrote about in your book that is now almost a year old—it's called Letters to My Daughters. Chapter 6 was all about helping your daughters and other young wives understand what's going on with this aspect of a marriage relationship. Dennis: And, at this point, I want to read a P.S. that Barbara puts at the end of one of these letters. Now, the book has nine chapters. There's only one chapter on sex, but it's a long chapter; and there are like half a dozen letters that pose a question to Barbara that she answers in the book. I just want to read this: P.S. There are additional unseen benefits to regular sexual relations in marriage. 3:00 Three little facts I learned from one of our FamilyLife Today radio guests: Number one: The chemicals oxytocin and dopamine, when released in the brain, increase bonding; the reexpression of love and commitment strengthens mutual affection; and there is a sense of satisfaction in keeping intimacy alive, even if the actual experience isn't a great one. The last is my favorite, because in our marriage… Now, this is really interesting for me to read on air; because, Bob, you know, we have people come up to us and they say: “You guys! All you do is present a perfect picture of marriage!” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Well, I'm about to dispel that [Laughter] in what I'm about to read that my wife wrote in this book! The last one is my favorite, because in our marriage, sex hasn't always been accompanied by fireworks! Among a lot of good-to-great experiences, we've also had some pretty lousy encounters… 4:00 Did you really write that in this book?! Barbara: I did. [Laughter] And I can tell you still don't like it very much. Dennis: I don't; I don't. [Laughter] I complained about this when I edited it, but you didn't take it out. …some pretty lousy encounters…some that left us both either disappointed or hurt. That makes the chemical facts all the more important, because even not-great sex still bonds us together. Nice to know, huh? [Laughter] Dennis: Honestly, I really appreciate Barbara's honesty about our marriage, because I think a lot of people out there are hurting. They think they're the only ones that ever had a lousy encounter around the sexual relationship. Bob: When you and Dennis, together, wrote the book, Rekindling the Romance, you talked about seasons of a marriage. Barbara: Yes. Bob: You talked about early love, and then you talked about, kind of, this middle season— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —where it just can kind of get routine. 5:00 A lot of husbands and wives, in the middle of raising kids and going through things—they hit that season and they think to one another, “This is it?” They're frustrated and they're disappointed. They wonder, if they switch partners, if things would get better for them. Dennis: Or, let me tell you this—Barbara spoke to one group of women who talked about a no-sex marriage, where people just give up / toss in the towel and say, “We're done.” Bob: And we've talked to couples, who have said, “It's been two years” / “…three years since we've been intimate with one another. We're committed, and we still love each other; but we've just kind of given up on that area of our marriage.” You would say to a wife, who says, “We've given up and we're content, and it's working out for us,”—what would you say? Barbara: I would say that's a dangerous assumption. I think that it's a very real possibility in a lot of marriages, because— 6:00 —you're right—there is a middle ground in marriage, where it's just hard work; because you have so many demands on both of your lives. There's not much energy left over; there's not much enthusiasm; there's not much rest. It's hard to have a good, healthy, dynamic sexual relationship when you're tired all of the time. You're being pulled in a hundred directions by jobs, and kids, and financial stresses, and everything else. Yet, I would still say that it's important to keep it a priority; because if you don't, you're vulnerable to the enemy / you're vulnerable to the temptation to find that excitement somewhere else, which is why there are so many affairs. There are so many couples, who are splitting up and finding new partners, because it is exciting. They're finding that excitement that they once had in the early days of their marriage. 7:00 But it's not going to satisfy; it's not going to replace; it's not going to be better. It's actually going to be more complicated. I really believe, and I've repeated it multiple times in my book, that God is big enough to change any marriage. I strongly believe that His Word is true when He said, “Nothing is too hard for Me.” You may look at your marriage, and you may go: “This is impossible! This is just too hard! I don't think there's any way out.” I want you to know—I've felt that way. I remember feeling that way at different times in those middle years of marriage, when we were swamped with kids and life. It felt too hard; but I knew that God meant what He said when He said, “Nothing is impossible for Me.” So, therefore, if I believe in God—and I do—then I have to take Him at His Word. I have to go to Him and say: “This feels impossible. This feels too difficult, but I know that You can bring life back to our marriage.” 8:00 If you don't quit, then there's always the hope of the redemption—there's the hope of God bringing new life back into your marriage. But when you quit, you've basically slammed the door on the possibility of God working a miracle. I think that's a tragedy. Dennis: And there's a biblical admonition that Paul gives us from 1 Corinthians, Chapter 7. He said, “The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise, the wife to her husband.” It goes on to talk about the wife doesn't have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and the husband doesn't have authority over his body, but the wife does. What I think Paul is exhorting us to here is that you've got to pay attention to one of the strongest drives in humanity. I got to thinking about this, and there are really only a couple of drives, I think, such as the need for oxygen and the need for water and food that would supplant sexuality. 9:00 Bob: You think survival might be a little ahead? Dennis: Well, those are both survival categories; but the point is—the urge for two people to merge was put there by God. I've thought about this many times. It's a good thing, in most marriages, that one of the two of you has a stronger desire to be with the other in the area of sexuality. Why? Because if one of you didn't have a pursuit, what might happen? You'd just have two people, spinning plates, off doing their own thing, and occasionally coming back, like roommates at a house to be able to maybe touch each other with eyesight, but never emotionally—never in depth, with a true, real relationship—the way God designed it in marriage. I think God, in His ingenuity, has made something powerful here that too often has been called “dirty.” 10:00 It really is a healthy desire for two people to become one. Bob: So this brings up the issue, then, Barbara: “How would you coach a wife? Is it ever appropriate for her to say, ‘No, not now / not tonight—I'm not interested right now.' How should she say that? And what are the legitimate reasons for her to say, ‘I can't be with you'? Is it because, ‘I'm too tired,' or because, ‘You hurt me the other day'? What works here?” Barbara: Well, first of all, I think she does have a responsibility to be honest with her husband. I think that faking it—faking being together sexually—is not going to accomplish anything. If there is emotional distance between you—and you're feeling hurt because of something he said or if you really are so exhausted that you just can't function anymore that day—those are real life issues that we all deal with and we all feel. 11:00 The purpose of sex and of coming together is for intimacy—it's for transparency / it's for sharing our lives together. I don't think there's anything wrong with delaying it—I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman expressing how she feels or what her needs are—because to not do that is being disingenuous / that's not transparency. If the goal is transparency / the goal is intimacy and oneness, you have to be real / you have to be honest. Now, the way you do that, I think, is what's most important. That is, you can say, “I just can't tonight,” or “I feel like we've got to finish talking about this argument that we had two days ago,” or whatever it might be. It's the way in which you communicate that that matters to your husband. It must be done with respect; it must be done with commitment; it must be done with love. You say something like: “I need you to know what I'm feeling. Can we talk about this now, or should we talk about it later?” 12:00 “I need some resolution in this area of our relationship.” If you communicate that you're committed to him and you say: “I'm committed to you, and I'm going to work this out. I want to be with you, just not tonight,” or “…just not right now.” I think that's perfectly acceptable as long as “not right now” doesn't turn into two years. I think it needs to be an agreement between a husband and a wife—they talk about it, and they find a solution together that works for both of them. It has to be mutual. Bob: That's 1 Corinthians 7 again; isn't it? Dennis: It is. Paul goes on to say: “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement, for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer. But then, come back together again so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” I mean, we live in a highly-sexualized culture. 13:00 We've got to understand one another. Here's where Barbara's book does an outstanding job of helping young wives, and for that matter, older wives understand their husbands in this area—and how they are made by God—and that it's good—it's not bad / it's not evil.. They should bless their husband and not ignore him. If you need to say, “Not tonight, Sweetheart,” don't ignore it tomorrow night, and the next night, and the next night, and the next night. Bob: So the wife who is feeling, tonight: “I think he might be interested. I just—maybe if I just go to bed early—I don't say anything / I just fall— you know, he comes in and finds me asleep. Then, he'll leave me alone.” She gets a little passive-aggressive with how she handles this. She finds ways to dodge or avoid. Dennis: Do you think a guy doesn't know this? Barbara: Yes! He does. Dennis: Yes; he does! Bob: So, to that wife—you'd say: “It's time to get this out in the open and have the conversation”? 14:00 Barbara: Yes; I do. I think it's much better to talk about it. I mean, I think it's a temptation for all of us women to want to kind of just avoid it and hope it will go away when we're too tired, or overwhelmed, or whatever. But making it go away isn't the solution. It's not the solution to any kind of a disagreement, or an impasse, or something that's between you, as husband and wife. It's like the part that Dennis read earlier from my book—even not-so-great sex is bonding. It's remembering what's true / it's remembering the value that God places on your marriage and on the sexual part of your marriage relationship. It's going to him and saying: “I am really exhausted, but I sense that you might be interested in making love tonight,” or “…having sex tonight. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about a solution? Can we figure out what we want to do together so that we're mutually agreeing?” She's not controlling by being passive, and going to sleep ahead of time, and hoping he won't notice. 15:00 Does that make sense? Bob: It does! What do you say, then, to the wife who says, “You know what? Thirty pounds ago, he was attractive. Today, I'm just not attracted to him.” Or she says, “Thirty pounds ago, I felt attractive. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “And now, I don't feel desirable. Even though he says he's interested, I think, ‘How can you be? Because I look at myself in the mirror and I don't feel attractive.'” What do you say about those issues? Barbara: Well, I think those are just further reflections of our need for transparency and our need for oneness. We got married to be acceptable to one another. We got married to know one another in our strengths and in our weaknesses. So when we gain weight or when things change about us, are we still committed? Are we still called to love one another? Are we still committed to making our marriage all that God wants it to be for as long as we both shall live? Well, we have to learn to love one another in our weaknesses. 16:00 We have to learn to love one another in our imperfections. Yes; it may have been easier when you were both in your 20s and you were both—whatever attracted you to each other—but marriage wasn't built for just when we're in our 20s. Marriage was built for a lifetime. You are going to go through trials and difficulties, and both of you are going to change. Is God big enough to give you the kind of love that will last?—the kind of intimacy that you got married for in those years when you are challenged with health issues, or weight issues, or whatever it is? Dennis: And I know a dad who took his daughters aside—they had several daughters—and he just talked to them about the importance of your attractiveness to your husband: “You need to do your job of being the best—the very best—magnet you can be to your man.” Now, we all know that there are these superstar models out there. Bob: Right. 17:00 Dennis: You're never going to be able to compete at that level, but you know what? You can be a beautiful, attractive wife to your husband. One of the things I appreciate about Barbara is—even when she says she doesn't feel pretty, she's still incredibly attractive to me. I just appreciated her for how she's paid attention to the process of aging. I mean, 44 years—that means our listeners know we're no longer teenagers in our 20s; okay? Forty-four years of marriage—I mean, you've got a lot of gravity to fight by the time you get there. So the point is: “Do you care enough to love your husband in the way that speaks love to him?” Barbara: And it's not just about the exterior; because I think what we're talking about right now—people tend to think it's the exterior. It's not! What makes a person beautiful—what makes a man or a woman beautiful—is our hearts. 18:00 If we pay attention to our hearts, we pay attention to learning to love well, and to do what God has called us to do as men and as women, then we're going to be attractive to one another. Because when Dennis serves me, and denies himself for me, and when he does the kinds of things that I know cost him something—and he's doing it because he loves me—that's attractive to me. I mean, I appreciate that / I respond to that. Any woman alive will do that; because, when she sees a man sacrificing for her—we're just built to respond to that—and vice-versa—when women serve their husbands and love their husbands, that's what makes us attractive. Bob: We've been focusing on your counsel to young wives because, again, that's the subject of the book you've written: Letters to My Daughters. I did want to, before we're done, go back 22 years and let our listeners hear a clip of advice that you shared for husbands in this area of sex and romance, back when we recorded a series on FamilyLife Today, back in 1995— 19:00 Dennis: This is scary! [Laughter] Barbara: It is! Bob: —called—do you remember 1995? Do you remember being 22 years younger than you are now? Barbara: Yes, but that was a long time ago! [Laughter] Bob: Well, we're going to hear this clip in just a minute. Let me, first, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of your book, Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online at our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and order your copy of Barbara Rainey's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also order a copy when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the number is 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” By the way, when you're on the website at FamilyLifeToday.com, there's a banner there that says, “Romance Me.” 20:00 If you click that, there's a quiz you can take to talk about your romantic style and your spouse's romantic style and to see where there's compatibility and where there might be areas for growth. Click on that when you're on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can share the romance quiz with friends on Facebook® or on Twitter®. We just thought this would be something fun for you to do and just see how you match up in the area of romance. Let me also say a quick word of thanks to those folks who made today's program possible—it's those of you who support this ministry. Particularly, we want to thank those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners and who provide the financial stability / the backbone for this daily radio program. You really are partners with us in this outreach to marriages and families, all around the world, as we work to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We appreciate your partnership with us. 21:00 If you're able to help with a donation today, we'd love to say, “Thank you,” by sending you Dennis and Barbara Rainey's devotional book called Moments with You. It's our thank-you gift if you make a one-time donation or if you make your first gift as a Legacy Partner. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more or to make a donation. Orcall 1-800-FL-TODAY, and you can donate over the phone. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, we promised our listeners that they were going to get a chance to hear some advice that you shared to husbands. We were recording a series called “Creating a More Romantic Marriage.” We were just asking you to help husbands understand how women think on this issue of romance, and intimacy, and sex in marriage. Dennis: Is this the story about Saran Wrap? [Laughter] Barbara: No!! [Laughter] Bob: Stop it! 22:00 Barbara: It's a story about “a + b = c”; right? Bob: Ah, she knows where we're headed! [Laughter] Listen to this clip from 22 years ago: [Previous Interview] Barbara: I don't think that a woman wants to feel pegged; I don't think she wants to feel figured out, button-holed, taken advantage of—whatever you want to call it. I think that that defeats the essence of love. Again, I think that a husband needs to live with her in an understanding way, and to love her as Christ loved the church, and then she will respond to that. Bob: So it sounds to me like the message here to men is: “Once you've found what really communicates love to your wife,— Dennis: —“don't ever do that again!” [Laughter] Bob: That's right. Barbara: Noooo! Bob: — “she will realize it, and she will change the rules. Barbara: That's not true. Bob: “And tomorrow it's going to be something completely different!” [Laughter] Barbara: It makes us sound schizophrenic. Bob: But that's what it feels like for men sometimes! Barbara: I know! Dennis: Well, it feels like it to a man—that, here, he is doing his best to love his wife— Barbara: I understand. Dennis: —and she throws away the rule book. Barbara: I do. 23:00 Dennis: And she says: “I don't want a rule book. I don't want to be figured out.” Barbara: It sounds awful! [Laughter] It really does. Bob: But it's true; isn't it? Barbara: Well, I really do think it's true. I really do, and it's not that she doesn't want those things done again. It's not that you bring her flowers two or three times and she loves it; and then, all of a sudden, she feels like she's been pegged and she doesn't ever want them again for the rest of her life. I think there needs to be variety / there needs to be creativity. She needs to feel like he's thinking about her in different ways at different times and not just the same old, prescribed pattern. [Studio] Bob: So, 22 years later, it still can't be a formula. Is that what you're saying? Barbara: That is correct. It cannot be a formula. Women still want to be pursued / we still want to be figured out. I think it's a very good thing. Dennis: I'm Dennis Rainey, and that's real family life! [Laughter] Bob: I was waiting for you to say, “I approve this message,”— Barbara: Yes! Bob: —but you didn't say that; did you? Barbara: No. Dennis: That was back last fall—we can't say that anymore. [Laughter] 24:00 No; it's really important that men live with their wives in an understanding way and that a husband understands that his wife needs to be loved. That's a lifetime assignment. What communicates love to your wife will be different than mine, and what communicates love to your wife today will be different in a decade. It will grow / it will mature. I'll tell you what you have, as you move into the twilight years of life, you're going to have a great relationship that you wouldn't want to swap out with anybody, even though there've been some very, very difficult times. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

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Keys to a Healthy Marriage

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 6, 2020 25:43

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Keys to a Healthy Marriage Guest: Barbara Rainey From the series: Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 2) Bob: Barbara Rainey likens intimacy in marriage to a secret garden—a place that only a husband and wife go together. She says it's a risky place.Barbara: It is a place of raw exposure. It is a place of being real with one another. It is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship, so we need the walls of a commitment. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place.Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 6th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. We'll talk today about how a husband and wife can work together to cultivate the secret garden of their marriage. Stay with us.1:00And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. It's been almost a year now since the release of your wife's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're finally getting around to Chapter 6— Dennis: You've got— Barbara: —which rhymes with—[Laughter] Dennis: —you've got a cheesy grin on your face. Bob: You—you know, Chapter— Dennis: The listeners can't see your face! [Laughter] Bob: —six!—six. If you replace one letter in “six,” you get an idea of what we're going to be talking about— Dennis: Well— Bob: —today. Dennis: Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, has flown off the shelf. It's really doing well. I understand why, because I think this is Barbara's best book ever. It is certainly a very honest look at our marriage. I want to welcome her back to the broadcast. Thanks for coming back in, Sweetheart. Barbara: I'm happy to be here. Dennis: I know you are. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I know you are. Since we're going to talk about s—s—s— Bob: Sex. Just say it—sex. Dennis: Chapter 6. Barbara: It is not that hard for you to say! [Laughter] 2:00 Bob: You've heard him say it before? Barbara: I don't think it's that hard for him to say! [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to pray for our audience; because as I was preparing to come in here, reading Barbara's book, I thought: “You know? Oh my! How broken are we as human beings—how many different perspectives we come at this subject.” There are some listeners who've been hurt deeply by their past choices and some are in present relationships. I just want God to intervene and minister to—whether they're single, married, divorced, single parents—I just want to ask God to meet every person where they are: Father, You made us, male and female. There is no surprise in terms of how we function. You made us to merge together and become one. 3:00 Yet, what You designed, man has degenerated and has twisted. You know that as well. You know where each listener is, who is tuning in to our broadcast today. I just would ask You to be gentle with each of them. Use these broadcasts, I pray, to minister to them just where they are. Produce some hope, some help, and some encouragement to each person listening. For the guys, who are listening in, Father, I pray that they might listen with some understanding. We tend to be too quick to judgment on this subject. I pray for all of us just to be wise in terms of what we hear and what we apply. In Christ's name I pray. Amen. Bob: Amen. Barbara this is a subject that obviously is personal—it's intimate—it really does get to the core of who we are as human beings. It can be threatening for a lot of people. 4:00 I was very interested—as you invited your daughters and daughters-in-law to ask questions about marriage, the first question you got related to this—I'm just going to read it from the book——it says: “So yeah. Sex. You gave me “the talk,” and we had our pre-wedding conversation that was pretty short and hurried. No offense; it was busy. I get it. But now I'm married. And it's um…different. Fine. FINE. But, well, I have to ask this…what's the big deal?” I thought that was an interesting question from a daughter to say, “I'm in the midst of it, but I'm not sure I understand why it's as big a deal as people say it is.” Barbara: It's a great question. You know, it was one that I just had to think about a lot. Actually, I had to think about all these questions a lot because, as Dennis prayed, this topic—this part of our marriage relationship—is not easy. 5:00 It's not simple. It's not cut and dry / it's not black and white. It's very complicated; and even though it's very good, it's very complicated. My short answer to “What is the big deal?” is that it takes a long, long time to understand what God has built into us, as men and women. It takes a while to understand the purpose of sex. It takes a while to undo things that we've brought into our marriage. It just takes time. I think, in our culture today, more than in any other generation, we expect instant results in every area of our lives. We're so used to having instant access to information. We just don't know how to wait—we don't know how to persevere. We don't know how to have patience. I think, in this area of marriage, our expectation for change to happen quickly and for results to be mastered fast, is a misplaced hope; because I think, in the long run, the goal of marriage is a marathon— 6:00 —it's a lifetime race. Figuring out why it's a big deal takes a lot of time. It's me getting to know my husband, as a man, and him getting to know me, as a woman. That isn't going to take place quickly. Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, as it describes two people becoming one—there was a progression that God declared. He said, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one [emphasis added].” One of the problems, Bob—and many of our listeners may be experiencing this right now—we have reversed the order. Bob: Yes. Dennis: We're trying to become one without the leaving and the cleaving—the commitment that really bonds two broken human beings hearts to one another and gives you the only chance of two broken people experiencing marriage for a lifetime, as Barbara was talking about here. 7:00 Bob: Barbara, explain to our listeners why, for a wife / for a woman this issue of a solid commitment is so critical when it comes to intimacy. Barbara: In the book I tell the story of a book that we used to read when our kids were growing up, called The Secret Garden. It's the story of a young woman / a young girl, who grew up in a huge manor estate in England. As she was growing up there, she discovered this garden; and it was a secret garden. It had walls all the way around it that were six to eight feet tall, brick or stone walls. As she dug though the ivy, she found a door. The door was locked and she couldn't get in. Over time, she began to continue to dig around. One day, she found a key and was able to unlock the door and go in. I use that story in the book because I liken this area of our marriage—this intimacy / this sex in our marriage—to a secret garden. 8:00 It's a place that only a husband and wife go together—no one else is allowed. It is for them only. I think the reason commitment is so important is because it is a place of raw exposure—it is a place of being real with one another—it is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship. We need the walls that that secret garden had. We need the walls of a commitment. We need that security, as women in particular, but men need it as well for us to experience what God intended for us to experience in marriage. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place. Bob: You're talking about something that goes far beyond just the biological experience of intimacy— 9:00 Barbara: Absolutely! Bob: —because the biology may not need that, but the oneness we're talking about here— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —really requires that we can trust one another— Dennis: Yes. Bob: —in order to be vulnerable with one another. Dennis: In fact, Bob, I think what you're hitting on here is so important. I think one of the least understood passages in Scripture—there's a reason why we can't understand it—Genesis, Chapter 2, verse 25. I'm going to read it and then I'm going to explain why we don't understand it—it says, “And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” That verse comes right after the leave, cleave, and become one. The reason we can't understand what that means—we have never experienced what Adam and Eve did in the garden before the fall. Barbara: That's right; yes. 10:00 Dennis: Two people, totally naked, totally exposed, totally transparent with one another—and there was no shame. There was joy / there was delight—there was the experience of God and one another—there was no hiding in a marriage back then. When it comes to the subject of sex, I think we're trying to get to that point of being naked and unashamed; but we don't know how to get there. So a lot of single people are co-habiting—they're thinking they can experience the sexual delights of marriage without the commitment— Bob: Right. Dennis: —and they can't! Barbara's talking about a commitment that creates safety around this garden. Bob: There is something about being able to say: “You're safe. I'm not going anywhere. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “I will not expose what happens here. You can be who you are and still be loved.” That's what we long for— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —and that is what is supposed to be going on in intimacy in a marriage relationship. 11:00 Barbara: That's what we get married for—we get married to be loved unconditionally. That's our expectation and our hope when we say, “I do”; but we don't realize that it's not just the physical oneness that produces that. It's all of the conversations—it's learning to be, as Dennis just said, naked and unashamed. That does not happen quickly. If you'll think about what happened in Genesis—after that verse where Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed—and then, when the fall happened, what was the first thing that Adam and Eve experienced? Bob: Their shame. Barbara: Their shame and they were afraid. Bob: Yes. Barbara: I think we vastly underestimate the fears that we bring into marriage. All of us come into marriage with fears, even if we don't have past experiences that were negative or were difficult. We still have the fear of rejection; we have the fear of exposure; we have the fear of being known— 12:00 —just the question, “If you really knew me as I am inside—as I know I am inside—would he still love me?” A man thinks the same thing, “If she really knew what I thought—if she really knew who I was—would she still accept me?” I think that fear—that we all bring into a marriage—takes time to expose those fears because it's a risk to do so. It takes time to work toward that place of being unashamed. It doesn't ever totally go away, because it won't until we go to heaven; but we can make great progress / we can make great strides in that comfort level that we all long for when we get married. Dennis: That's exactly right. I have to use a present-day illustration, Bob, of something that really makes me sad—but immediately after the evening news / the local news here, there's one of these Hollywood reports. It always is telling of some breakup of some Hollywood marriage. 13:00 I really feel a great deal of compassion, because they don't understand the God who made this relationship and how He made them to function. In their lost-ness, they're just trying to reach out to one another and experience that oneness and experience the intimacy of a great relationship. But I've got to tell you—Barbara and I have been married 44 years—and there have been a lot of incredible highs and sadly, some tough, tough lows. The thing that has kept us safe and secure in our relationship is we've never/ever used the “D” word—divorce. It has never crossed our lips. We have used the “C” word—covenant-keeping love for a lifetime. In the process of doing that, two imperfect people are wobbling their way to the finish line, attempting to represent how God designed marriage to proclaim His love to the world; because a marriage is to be a model of Christ and the church. 14:00 It is representative of a husband who loves, serves, leads, and gives his life on behalf of his wife—and a wife who supports her husband and loves him back. One of the ways they both do this is through the gift of sexual intimacy in marriage. Bob: Barbara, I had to smile when I read this letter from your daughter, saying, “So, what's the big deal?” for two reasons. One is because there is a stereotype that says: “This is how women view sex in marriage.” Men are very different. I stop to think to myself, “Would a man ever write to his father, ‘So Dad—' Barbara: “What's the big deal?” [Laughter] Bob: —“'What's the big deal? We're married now. I don't get it—what's the big deal?'” I also smiled because there's a sense in which the mystery of marital intimacy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —is just beginning to unfold in the early days of marriage; right? 15:00 Barbara: That's a word that I use a lot in my book—is the word, “mystery,”—because I think it helps us be more at peace with the process. When we realize that marriage is a mystery—that we will never, totally understand it—because, as Dennis just said, it is a picture of Christ's relationship with us. Just accepting the fact that marriage is a mystery kind of gives you a sense of: “Ah! I can rest. I can relax.” It is a mystery and it is a process of beginning to discover what God has built in this, all along, from the very beginning. As we've been saying, it's about getting to know one another and being transparent with one another. Dennis: When we think of a mystery, we think of an unsolved murder case or a crime. Bob: —a puzzle. Dennis: Yes; exactly. This mystery is going to be revealed—[Laughter] —in heaven, in eternity, with Jesus Christ and the church at the wedding feast of the bridegroom and the bride—the church being the bride. 16:00 In between time, between now—this thing called “time”—and eternity, here you are, as a couple, hammering out your commitment and attempting to be naked and unashamed in a way that honors God. It's tough, and it's hard. I would ask you, Barbara, as a young wife might come to you—what would you say is the most important thing she needs to know as she approaches this most intimate area of the marriage relationship? What does she need to know and do? Barbara: I think the first thing she needs to know—and she may already know this—but I think it bears repeating—and that is that marriage is holy. I think that when we see it as—not just a gift, not just a privilege, not just something we get to experience—but there is an element of marriage that has a holy aspect to it; because God created it and because He lives in our lives, there is a holiness there. 17:00 I think that helps us put it in right perspective—it helps us go: “Well no wonder it's so hard! No wonder it's a challenge to discover the kind of oneness that we got married for.” Secondly, from there, I want to say, too, that I would strongly encourage any young wife to remember that it's an important part of the relationship. It's really a mirror of the rest of your relationship. You may feel like you're having good sex; but if you're not really becoming one—if you're not really being transparent with one another—then you're not going to be really growing together in other areas of your relationship. It's important that you keep that area of your marriage healthy and growing and keep it alive. The temptation is—when it gets hard, is to just say, “Well, forget it!” but you can't give up on it because it's one of the important parts that God has built into a marriage. Because God created it and God sanctioned it, then we need to learn what He wants us to do with it—we need to figure it out. 18:00 Bob: You know a lot of wives, who are saying, “I hear you and I agree with you; and if I was not tired all the time,— Barbara: Yes. Bob: “—I would give more attention to this! But I am tired all the time! How do I make this a priority, and how do I make it important when I'm exhausted?” Barbara: Did you read that in my book? Bob: Well, I did. Yes! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes; I talk about that in the book, because that is such a common complaint for women. I get it! I was tired all the time—and Dennis used to say he would be a very wealthy man if he had a dollar for every time I said, “I am so tired!” [Laughter] Right? Dennis: Right! [Laughter] Barbara: But even if we are so tired—and we are—and a lot of women are exhausted all the time because of the responsibilities of jobs and kids—and just the emotional weight of being in life. There are just so many ups and downs that we feel so deeply; and yet, it's learning to prioritize your life. 19:00 It's deciding, during a particular day, that you're going to take a nap so you've got more energy for your husband at night or it's choosing not to add these things to your schedule so that you can have more energy and more focus for your marriage. It's choosing to keep your marriage a priority—make it a priority. That's hard to do sometimes. There were plenty of times when I would take a nap in the afternoon and I'd still be exhausted at night. Dennis: That's correct! [Laughter] Barbara: It's not a quick and easy solution. [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to insert something. There are men, who are listening right now: “That's right! She's just tired too much.” To which I would say to the guys: “Are you cleaning up the kitchen— Bob: Yes. Dennis: “—after dinner? Are you helping to get the kids ready for bed?—brush their teeth, read them a story, pray with them. Get down on your knees, next to them, and look them in the eyes and ask them how their day was,”—but take some of your wife's load off of her and assume it yourself! 20:00 There is a concept in the Bible called “bearing one another's burdens.” I do think some guys—they want sex, but they don't want the process of loving—that means nourishing, which is creating growth—and cherishing, which is creating value— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —they don't want to do that with their wife. When you help your wife with her household duties, with the kids and all—you're making a statement of value to your wife that she ultimately will hear. Bob: I have to ask you about the wife, who would say, “This is a priority for me— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“but it's less a priority for my husband.” Barbara: Yes. Bob: Let me first of all, though, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of the book that you've written, which is called Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You address, not only this subject, but you address a variety of subjects—letters that your daughters and daughters-in-law have written to you over the years, asking questions about being a godly wife and how you've responded to those letters that they've written. 21:00 You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy of the book; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and order by phone. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and you can call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Dennis: Bob, I just want to say a word to our listeners. When you buy a book from FamilyLife Today, you're helping to keep this radio broadcast on the air. I've got to tell you—the people who really float this ship right here, to keep FamilyLife Today broadcasting, are Legacy Partners. They're people who give, every month, and who say: “I want to keep this kind of right-thinking—a biblical approach to marriage, to sex, to intimacy—I want to keep this on the air in my community; because this is going to make a difference in a lot of people's lives.” I just want to say, “Thanks,” to Legacy Partners right now: “Thank you for making this broadcast possible.” Bob: If you'd like to join the Legacy Partner team, we could use more Legacy Partners. 22:00 You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link, where it says, “Donate.” There's information available there about becoming a Legacy Partner. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Barbara Rainey has joined us today. We've been talking about Chapter 6 in her book, Letters to My Daughters. Barbara, we started the conversation with a letter that you got from one of your daughters, saying, “What's the big deal?” There are some wives, who have been listening to us have this conversation, and they have said, “My question is: ‘Why isn't this a bigger deal— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —“'for my husband? I'm ready. In fact, I feel robbed, or starved, or like there's something wrong with me! What do I do?” Barbara: I interviewed a couple of young women when I wrote this particular portion of the chapter because I wanted to know what they thought, and what they felt, and what they were experiencing. It's interesting—I don't have statistics to back this up—but I did do some research and talked to a number of different counselors and different people. 23:00 I think, oftentimes, there are issues in a young man's life that are keeping him from wanting to have sex with his wife; and typically, it's pornography. In the women that I talked to—when I was preparing to write this chapter—that was the issue with most of these young men. There was so much shame attached to them as men / as young men because they were exposed, when they were children or when they were teenagers, and they just didn't know how to handle it—they still don't know how to handle it. That shame is keeping them from wanting to be one, sexually, with their wife. Whether it is pornography or whether it is something else, the encouragement that I got from those that I talked to and that I would offer to you is that this is a concern that you need to carry with him. Dennis just mentioned, a minute ago, the verse, “Bear one another's burdens.” Once you become married, your burdens become one another's. You need to carry those burdens together. 24:00 I would encourage a wife, who is in that situation, to say to her husband: “You know, I know this is hard; and this is hard for me too. Let's go find someone who can help us; because I'm committed to you for a lifetime, and you agreed to be committed to me for a lifetime. Let's figure out what we need to do. Let's find what challenges we need to face. Let's do the work together to make our marriage what God intended it to be.” I know—from talking to these women—that it can change / it can be redeemed. God can change those broken places in both of our lives and bring you to a place where marriage is what you wanted it to be and where sex, in particular, is as God designed it to be. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

god jesus christ relationships president father hollywood bible mother men marriage england sex parenting wife scripture keys bear daughter arkansas letters amen laughter produce copyright family life in christ little rock sweetheart because god newlyweds secret garden healthy marriages family life today bob lepine dennis rainey barbara rainey bob you my daughters bob well bob there so dad bob yes bob let fl today legacy partner barbara it

A Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry Sittser

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 6, 2020 28:05

A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgiveness Guest: Jerry SittserFrom the series: A Grace Disguised (Day 3 of 3) Bob: Proverbs 25:11 says, “A Word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in a setting of silver.” When someone has experienced loss we need to be careful that our words are fitly spoken. Here's Jerry Sittser… Jerry: Sometimes words can actually exacerbate the problem rather than help the problem. I mean, Job's three friends did their best work when they just shut their mouths for a week and sat with Job on that heap of ashes. The cue is, when they're ready to talk, then you're ready to listen. When they really feel like they are ready to receive a word, then you give it, but never before that. And what you don't want to do is use words to try to somehow push the loss and its significance away. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 8th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll here today how God shows up in the midst of loss. And about how we can show up, too. And welcome to FamilyLife Today and thanks for joining us. Just as I was walking in here, I got an email from our mutual friend, Dr. Michael Easley, who is the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Franklin, TN, and Michael sent me a prayer that he had written to send to a couple who had experienced the loss of a child a year ago today. The child had lived two months and unexpectedly died. And Michael wrote this prayer for them. He said, I pray for you today that your memories will be sweet, that your hearts will be calmed, that you will find a non-anxious presence. That you will choose to trust and see good when there is nothing for sure, that you will grieve, but not as those who have no hope, that you will find comfort and mercy in places others may never know. That your “why” questions will be replaced with a confidence in knowing that, He knows, and that's enough. We love you and ask Him to pour mercy, kindness and hope into your hearts. He does indeed know you and love you no matter what your experience may try to tell you. Dennis: Bob, you know as I listen to those words, I think, how many people listening to this broadcast right now have experienced loss, some kind of major loss in their lives, in the past 5 to 10 years. As I said earlier, if you live long enough, you will experience loss. In fact, life is really made up of a lot of losses as we lose our childhood, and move into adulthood. Some of those losses look good at the time but some of the losses aren't easily figured out, in fact, some are never figured out on this side of heaven. We've had a guest with us, Dr. Jerry Sittser who has helped us better understand the process of grieving through his book, A Grace Disguised. Welcome back. Jerry: Thank you, it's good to be here. Dennis: I mentioned earlier, that Barbara had recommended this book to me after our daughter, Rebecca and her husband Jake, experienced the loss of their daughter after seven days of life. And Barbara joins us on the broadcast as well. Sweetie, welcome. Barbara: Thank you, glad to be here. Dennis: In fact, I hadn't asked you this question, sweetheart. As you read this book, what was it about Jerry's book that most ministered to you, and why have you recommended it to so many people? Barbara: Well, I wish I had my copy in front of me, I tried to find it this morning, and I can't find where I set that thing. But at any rate it's all underlined and marked, and page corners turned back. And one of the things I remember most vividly is early in the first few chapters, Jerry, you talk about how loss is loss and that it doesn't do any good to compare losses, and to say that this loss is worse than that loss. Because loss brings grief and it brings pain and that grief and that pain is real and it needs to be experienced. It is what it is. To try to explain it or measure it and say it's not really that bad or it's worse than this, doesn't really make any difference in the long run. I think we are so prone to wanting to measure and figure these things out. The other piece I remember real vividly is a later chapter in the book, it talks about how our identity is changed by grief and loss and how so much of who we are is wrapped up in our identity with that thing or that person or that ability we have lost. Whether it's a divorce or a death, or whether it's losing the ability through physical illness and how that personal identity is transformed through the process of loss and grief. I thought that was really helpful and profound. Jerry: I call that the amputation of the familiar self. Barbara: That's what it was, yes. Jerry: It's extraordinarily hard, because we are really defined by our location, our relationships, our work, these things provide sources of identity and when one of those is lopped off, it requires a pretty long and significant period of adjustment to figure out who you are in the wake of the loss of that thing, when that thing defined you to some degree. We have these phantom pains, you know. Phantom pains are the leg telling you it's still there when you look down and it's not there anymore. That's what an amputation does and we will go through a long period of time when we feel those phantom pains of still feeling like we are this person, we belong to this person, we do this particular line of work and this kind of thing, even though we don't anymore. Bob: How long was it for you in the weeks that followed the car accident where your wife and your daughter and your mother all were killed? For how many months did you have this kind of reflexive phantom impulse to say, oh, I ought to call her and share this with her and then realize she's not there? Jerry: Well, for a long time. Reflexive is the right word, too. It is like a reflex, where it's programmed in you, so automatic. When after twenty years, when you call your spouse once or twice a day just to check in, “Hi, honey, how's it going and what are you doing, what are the kids doing, or how's work going,” that sort of thing. You can't help but have your mind go there; just automatically, it happens a long time. I would say after those months even though it wasn't as reflexive as it once was, it still was an impulse in me. And to tell you the truth, Bob, it still is, after 18 years. Now, I don't say that in despairing or bitter kind of way. I still think about those people every day. There's not a day that goes by, I don't. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't like words like recovery; I think that gives us a kind of vain expectation as if we can get back to something we had before. Dennis: Some months before our granddaughter, Molly, died, I received an email from the gentleman who heads up FamilyLife in New Zealand. His name is Andy Bray, he and his wife Nikki have given leadership to FamilyLife there for more than a dozen years. Their daughter who was 15 or 16 years of age, at the time, was killed in a tragic flood in New Zealand along with 5 or 6 other young people who were all first class Christian leaders. It was a reward trip for these young people, and I received that email some months before Molly's death. And I have to tell you that in those seven days of Molly's life, I kept thinking, that has to be harder, a harder thing to bear, to have had a relationship with your daughter for 16 years and now, to say goodbye. I mean it's one thing for my daughter and son-in-law to have a relationship for seven days and say goodbye, and the more I tried to work this equation out in my mind, I came to the conclusion that it was futility. It was a waste of time. Am I wrong? Jerry: No, you are right. Comparing loss is vain. It's like comparing headaches; I mean people will describe their headaches in lots of different ways. Well, how are you going to determine which one is worse? I mean it's silly in the first place. I put it this way; all losses are bad, just bad in different ways. How can you compare say the loss of a spouse to death and the loss of a spouse to divorce? How can you compare the loss of a child to death or say the loss of a child to waywardness, they are both bad. And they stand on their own and we need to treat them as unique and sacred in and of themselves. I tell you that was one of the reasons why I hesitated to write this book. My story is kind of sensational in a way, I mean this big event and three people are killed in this drunken driving accident. Everybody sort of gasps and I became almost an instant celebrity in Spokane overnight and I didn't like that. And the reason why I didn't like that was because I was so profoundly aware of other kinds of losses that were as severe as mine, just different, and maybe not visible and maybe not as prone to receive sympathy from other people. Let me give you an example, some guy came up to me a couple of years after the accident and said I've resented you for two years. And I said, “why, I hardly know you”, and he said, “your tragedy turned you into a hero, my tragedy has only brought more pain. My wife left me for another woman,” he said, “and I've had to deal with catastrophic consequences, but I'm nobody's hero.” That was very sobering for me to hear, it wasn't very nice for him to say, but it was very sobering for me to hear, recognizing that there are lots of losses that do not receive very much public attention. If they do, it's not with sympathy. I hesitated to write the book and when I decided to write it, I inserted Chapter Two: Whose Loss is Worse, just to protect myself from being made some kind of false celebrity because of my loss. There are lots of ways to suffer, lots of ways to experience pain, and mine is only one. And there are lots of things I don't know, I don't know what it means to experience, let's say the long term effects of terminal illness or injuries from which a person cannot recover. Bob: You know, it was interesting, Barbara, to hear you reflect back on what had an impact on you as you read Jerry's book. I asked Maryann last night, the same question. I said what was most impactful as you read the book, and she said probably the chapter on forgiveness. I thought it's interesting, I don't know that we make a connection between grief and loss and forgiveness, but you see those as being intimately tied together, don't you? Jerry: I do, and I titled that chapter: Forgive and Remember, instead of forgive and forget. I don't think it's possible and I don't think it's healthy to forget anything. But I think forgiveness can change the way we remember things. Especially when we've had pain inflicted to us, spouses betrayed us, somebody's done some violent act, say raped us or something like that, or someone has embezzled money and that destroyed our business. There are lots of ways we suffer loss when the results are catastrophic and somebody willed to do harm to us, directly or indirectly. Bob: In your case, it was a drunk driver who swerved across the road, right? Jerry: And smashed into us. Now he didn't intend to do that, his harm was not malicious in the sense that he was out to kill three members of my family. But his irresponsible decisions did lead to that and required me to forgive. Bob: What did you have to go through to get to forgiveness? Jerry: I think there were two phases to it; the more immediate and obvious one was the trial when the drunken driver was acquitted on a technicality and he walked away. That only added kind of a bitter cast to an already difficult journey in forgiving somebody who had had such a significant impact on my life. I learned in the process that forgiveness is not a singular act, it's a process you go through. And I think the most significant decision we make, is to say, we want to forgive. Not that we forgive at the time, but we want to go through the process where forgiveness begins to take place. And we get to the point where we can wish the person well and pray for them. Bob: You have heard some amazing, well; you've gotten some amazing feedback to the book. Letters, you were saying earlier, not a week goes by that you don't hear from someone who God has used your story and your book profoundly in their lives. Jerry: Yes, but it's a strange thing, there's a kind of an otherness to this book. I actually brought it with me. I've reread it once since I wrote it and that was when the new edition came out about five years ago, about the only time I ever cracked it. I skimmed it a little bit yesterday and it was a strange experience, because it's almost as if I didn't write it, it has a quality of otherness to it. As if it's not quite mine, I think the closest it would come would be the way that parents feel about their children. Is that those children are so much a part of you but when you look at them and get to know them you realize they're so other than you, too. And that's how I feel about this book. Dennis: You did tell a story before we came in the studio of a letter you have received from a woman who had a brother who was murdered. Jerry: And this was after 28 years. And through those 28 years of suffering she described it as being very harsh, very hard. She feels like she lost her mother permanently in the wake of her brother's murder and this sort of thing. She decided that she needed to forgive the murderer of her brother, so she did research, found out where he was in the prison system and asked if she could have permission to visit him. He sort of coldly gave her permission, and so she went to see him and God gave her two words, on the ride to see him, and these are very powerful to me. The first is, you're never beyond the reach of the grace of God, and the second is you can always become the man God wants you to be, even if you're in prison. And she met this man, forgave him, he broke down and sobbed, came to know the Lord and their relationship continues to this day. That's a powerful example of forgiveness, but it's a little troubling to me too, because it doesn't always happen quite that easily. Sometimes it is a process. It's a journey and you have to go through phases of forgiveness to get to the point where you can really wish the person well and trust them to the good hand of God and pray for them Dennis: Your story and just what you said reminds me of Romans 12: 18, and these are powerful in my life because there's a person I've had to forgive, more than one obviously over my lifetime, but one where this is very real to me. “If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God for it is written, vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord.” It's interesting, Jerry, as I have very imperfectly attempted to be obedient to that passage and have prayed for not only to be able to forgive and to be at peace. As I thought about the wrath of God I've prayed for that person to be delivered from the wrath of God, because I know what that means. It potentially could mean an eternity separated from God. Jerry: Oh, what a terrible burden a person has to bear for wrongdoing. I would always choose to be the victim of wrongdoing, than to be the perpetrator of wrongdoing. Early on that came to me, by the way, is I thought about what it would mean for me to change positions. And I didn't want that at all. You know, ironically, we like to claim justice. We really want, we think we want to live in a fair world, but I'm not sure we want the world to be fair. On the one hand maybe some bad things wouldn't happen to us that have happened to us over the years. But grace isn't fair either and I'd rather live in a world that is unfair, knowing that I am going to take some hits along the way, as I have, and will continue to experience if I know that grace is available to me too, because the unfairest thing in the world is grace. I think about our Lord who had to wear a crown of thorns, the only one in all of human history who was not deserving of that crown of thorns, so that we could wear a crown of honor. Dennis: Hmm, what a picture Jerry: There is no fairness in that at all. Dennis: And the reality of that is that it all occurred through suffering. Jerry: It all occurred through suffering. In fact, that is the answer to the problem of evil. This is where the Christian answer to evil is so paradoxical and so glorious and beautiful. The Bible's answer to suffering, is suffering, the suffering of God in human flesh. God chooses out of his pure love for fallen humanity, to actually enter into the world. And instead of entering it with a glorious birth, announced and heralded by sounding trumpets, he was born into a pathetic stable. He grows up in obscurity. He is a carpenter's son, he never gets a first rate education. He didn't really get an education at all, except in the synagogue. He has a three year ministry, and then he suffers death on a cross. We are talking about God doing this. This is the Bible's answer to suffering, God's suffering and then the triumph in the resurrection. Dennis: The apostle Peter says this about that suffering of Christ, “Beloved do not be surprised at the fiery trial which comes upon you to test you as though something strange were happening, but rejoice, in so far as you share in Christ's sufferings, that you may be able to rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed.” Jerry: And Paul writes, “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope.” This is one of the strange things that's occurred in our own experience, is a rejoicing in the experience. Not because we're glad it happened, we'll never be that, bad is always bad, but because of what's come as a result. Bob: You are talking about what is come in your own life, your own experience of God's grace in the midst of all of this. But also, what has come through you in the book that you have written, A Grace Disguised: How the Soul Grows through Loss. God has used powerfully in the lives of folks sitting around this table and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of folks who have read the book. And God's used it in a great way to minister to them in their own sense of grief and loss. Jerry: But I will say, that no book, however, well read or however life-changing will ever justify, explain or excuse the pain that was visited upon us. These are separate things altogether. I don't like it when people sort of explain something because of the good outcome. Joseph really gave us the right formula here, you meant it for evil, God worked it out for good, but the evil was still evil. Bob: Yes, that's right and we don't want to do anything to try to minimize the reality of that, but in the comfort you've received from God you have been able to be faithful to do what 2 Corinthians 1 says, to comfort others with the comfort you've received. And you do that through your book and we want to encourage listeners who are in the midst of a season of suffering or a season of loss to get a copy of the book, A Grace Disguised: How a Soul Grows Through Loss. You can find out more about it online at FamilyLifeToday.com. While you are on our web site you will also see information about Barbara Rainey's new book written with your daughter Rebecca Mutz. It tells the story of the life, the short life, of your granddaughter Molly, who was born a year ago at this time and lived for seven days. The book is called A Symphony in the Dark: Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief, and we do have copies of that book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center as well. You can get more information about it online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call toll free, 1-800 FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329. Someone on our team will let you know how you can get either or both of these books sent to you. We also want to be quick today to say thank you so much to those of you who help underwrite the syndication and production costs of this program, to make it possible for the program to be heard on this station and on our network of stations all across the country. Our listeners and especially those of you who can help support this program financially, you make it possible for this program to continue and we appreciate you so much. This month if you are able to make a donation of any amount to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we'd like to say thank you by sending you a CD that features a conversation we had not long ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss, the author and the speaker on the daily radio program Revive our Hearts. Nancy has written a book called Choosing Forgiveness and we wanted to explore what the Bible teaches about the subject of forgiveness with her. That conversation is available as our way of saying thank you this month when you do make a donation to support the ministry of FamilyLife Today. If your donation is online, you'll see a key code box on the donation form as you fill it out online. Type the word “forgive” in the box and we'll send you the CD, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY you can make your donation by phone and just mention that you would like the CD and we are happy to send it to you. And again we appreciate you so much for partnering with us, here at the ministry of FamilyLife Today. Tomorrow we are going to talk with a young woman who lives in NYC, about a different kind of loss than we have talked about already this week. We are going to talk about being young and single, and wishing you were married, and dealing with the sense of loss that comes with that. Carolyn Leutwiler is going to join us tomorrow, hope you can be back with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock Arkansas Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Daring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis Majors

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 28:47

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Serving the Hurting Guest: Katie Davis Majors From the series: Daring to Hope (Day 3 of 3) Bob: As a single mother, a parent to 13 adopted children, Katie Davis Majors was surprised when a young man, also living in Uganda, began pursuing her. Katie: He asked me out twice; and it was in the middle of, I think, just a hard season for me personally. Both times I said, “No”; and the second time, I really said like, firmly, “No”—like, “Hey,”— Barbara: “Don't ask again now.” Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay. We can't—we can't do that. No. No; thank you.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, December 20th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How Katie Majors went from a firm “No,” to becoming Mrs. Benji Majors—we'll hear that story today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I want to meet Benji Majors sometime; don't you? Dennis: I do! Bob: I mean, I just want to meet the guy who was persistent and met a determined young woman and was determined to win her. Dennis: I want to hear the story of whether or not he went to Uganda in search of Katie Davis, author of Kisses from Katie. [Laughter] Bob: I'm just curious about Benji. You told us earlier that there was a guy who was living out in the house behind your house. You called Benji and said, “Would you want to come disciple him?” Benji said, “Sure.” I'm thinking: “Yes; Benji wanted to take you out. I would have come and discipled him and say, ‘I'll be there every day to disciple him if it gets me a little closer to you.'” Do you think that was in the back of his mind? Katie: At that point, no; I don't think so. [Laughter] Dennis: Are you sure though? Katie: No! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes; that was a hesitant yes. So, yes; I think that's right. 2:00 Dennis: Well, Katie is the author of a new book, Daring to Hope. She is now married. She is a mom of 14—13 of whom—a baker's dozen of Ugandan little girls, who are becoming, even against Katie's will, young ladies. They are growing up— Katie: Yes. Isn't that true? Dennis: —growing up on her here. I want to ask you my favorite question, but I'm going to ask you to wait to answer it— Katie: Okay. Dennis: —until the end of the broadcast. Here is my question: “What's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all of your life?” Now, don't answer right now—I'm going to give you a moment to think about it—but courage is doing your duty in the face of fear. I've got a sneaking suspicion, because of your book, Daring to Hope, that you've got a definition or two that comes from your book that you'd share with our listeners; but to get there, what I want to first have you do is tell us about the woman who had five children, who was dying of TB and HIV, who came to you. 3:00 Her name was Katherine. Tell our listeners that story of how you cared for her. Katie: Katherine came to live with us when she became very ill. Her five children, under the age of ten, were sponsored by Amazima; so we were paying for their school. Dennis: Okay; let's just stop here. Amazima is an organization you run in Uganda. Katie: Yes. We—our goal is really to disciple families and to empower the families to stay together. About 80 percent of children in institutions in East Africa actually have one living parent; and they end up institutionalized just due to financial poverty. Their parents cannot afford to pay for them to go to school, or to pay for their medical care, or to pay for their food; so they send them to these institutions. That was something that was very shocking to me the first year that I lived in Uganda, and I really desired to try to change the system. 4:00 Through financial sponsorship of school fees, and some food, and some basic medical provision, Amazima works to keep these children with their biological family members; but of course, the heartbeat of our organization is really that, in doing that, we would form a relationship with these families and lead them to Christ. Dennis: Katherine was one of those moms who had experienced the care of your organization. Katie: Yes; so we were in relationship with her and had known her for a few years through her children; and she just got sicker and sicker to the point where she wasn't really able to take care of her children very well. She moved over to our house so that I could help her out with her children and, also, because our house is very close to the local hospital, and she needed a little more immediate access to medical care. We were just down the street from the doctor she was seeing. They lived with us for several months. I truly, really, believed that God was going to heal her of her illness—that she would become healthy and strong again. 5:00 I had imagined it in my head—the happy ending, where she would move out with her children. We always throw a bit of a celebration for people who have lived with us for a season and get to move out on their own again. We've had many families, especially struggling single mothers, live with us over the years. We always have a big celebration when they become well, or they finally find a job, or their child is finally healthy enough, and they can move out. I really thought that that would be the case with Katherine and her family as well; and she did get better for some time, but then she began to deteriorate very quickly. Dennis: She passed away. Katie: She did. Dennis: You compared your experience to the prophet Habakkuk and how he had to deal with some disappointments as well. You learned through that disappointment that there isn't always a happy ending to the story—but in this case, there was a happy ending to the story because— Katie: Right. 6:00 Dennis: —she went to heaven. Katie: Yes; absolutely. That's what Habakkuk says—right?—that though the olive crop fails, though the leaves wither, though there are no sheep in the pen—basically, even if I can't see it, still I will hope / still I will rejoice in God my Savior. I felt like that was something God was teaching me in a season where I had really thought we would see it—we would see a happy ending where she stayed alive. God showed me—still I can rejoice, even though things didn't go my way. Barbara: I remember discovering that verse when our children were teenagers. They were starting to kind of press the limits a little bit and push back on us. I discovered that verse, and I thought, “This is a perfect verse for a mother— Katie: Yes. Barbara: —“of children of all ages; but especially, teenagers.” I think the oldest was only 15 at the time; but I remember, when I read that, I just hung on to that because I thought: “Lord, there is no guarantee— 7:00 Katie: Yes. Barbara: —“that all the best parenting, all the prayer—none of that guarantees that my children will choose You, they will choose to live a good life, they will be responsible / they'll be productive. They're no guarantees. It could all fail. It could all be gone. Will I trust You if You do that?” It was a real turning point in my life; because I said, “Okay; God, I will. I will choose to believe You even if none of my children flourish / there is no green on the vine.” Katie: And isn't that the hardest part of parenting— Barbara: Absolutely. Katie: —is just that moment when you realize, “Even if I do everything perfectly,”—which I'm not— Barbara: Which we're not—none of us do. Katie: —“but even if I did,— Barbara: Yes. Katie: —“there is no guarantee— Barbara: None. Dennis: No. Katie: —“there is going to be any fruit here. There's no guarantee that these—that they are going to choose Christ in their own lives, and they have to choose it for themselves.” That's the scariest part of it for sure! Barbara: Yes; exactly, because it's not something that we can do for them. Katie: No. 8:00 Bob: Bryan Loritts, who is a pastor in Northern California, who is a part of The Art of Parenting video series that's coming out before long, makes the observation: “God is a perfect Father. God has rebellious children.” Barbara: Yes; lots of rebellious children. [Laughter] Katie: Yes. Bob: So, think about that—here's a perfect Father with rebel kids. Why should we think that we, as imperfect parents, will be spared a little rebellion in our home?—right? Katie: Right. Dennis: No doubt about it. Just as Barbara was talking about, we have learned a bunch about God's love for us as we have loved our kids and watched them struggle in their faith, from time to time. Katie, I know from reading your book that you have learned a lot about the love of God through the 14 children that you have. Katie: Oh, absolutely; because even—you know, as a parent, you see so clearly that, even when you are disciplining your children, it's not out of this place of anger toward them or hatred toward them— 9:00 —it's out of such this place of love and a desire for good things to come in their lives. I think I've understood so much more that—when God disciplines me in my own life, when God tells me to go in a direction that I don't really feel like I want to go, or when God even brings me through a difficult time—it is His love that does that to shape me, to change me, to teach me; because He wants good things for me. I think, as parents, when we feel that love for our children, we can see it so much more clearly from God's vantage point. Dennis: Yes; I really agree. Katie, before we get too far away from the story of Katherine, who died, and her five children—what happened to those five? Did you adopt them? Katie: I didn't. They did stay with us for a little while, immediately following her death. 10:00 Then, we placed them with a biological aunt, who they lived with for some time; but that situation was never really good. The aunt was very young, and she was also struggling. She didn't have any biological children, so she had never parented before; and the children were really suffering there with her. We would provide food, and we would drive out there to visit them; but it just never seemed to be a good situation. I was just getting desperate, just praying, asking the Lord what I should do. I mean, the idea of having five more children come to my house was a lot. At the same time, I was not clearly seeing another option. They were a sibling set of five—like there aren't many families that are willing to take that on, even in the foster care system. I had gone to visit my friend, Rose. Before I started talking, she said, “You know, my daughter Helen”—who had been a good friend of my daughters and was in and out of our house a lot—she said: 11:00 “My daughter told me about what happened to the mom of those kids. I'm so sorry. God's just put it on my heart to really pray for them; but also, just to ask you: ‘Is there anything they need?—even, maybe, do they need a place to go?'” Of course, I like start to weep and just said: “Oh, I can't even tell you—that has been on my heart all week. I've been praying.” I was even just telling a good friend of mine earlier that same day—like, “I do not know what we're going to do for these children, but I feel like—I told their mom, before she died, that I would make sure they were okay. It feels like a lot of responsibility.” Rose and I talked for several more hours that day about what it would mean for her to start fostering them. About a month later, we went through all the paperwork process; and social workers visited with both families. 12:00 About a month later, we are able to help move Katherine's five children into Rose's home. Barbara: Wow. Dennis: You know, I just marvel at your acts of courage to care for Katherine as she died, to care for her children after she died, and also your courage in developing a relationship with a young man called Benji. Bob: Yes; you talked about how unusual it is for somebody to take five kids in as foster kids. [Laughter] Katie: That is a little ironic; isn't it? Barbara: Yes; it is. Bob: How unusual is it for a young man to say, “I'm going to be the husband to a mom of 13?!” Katie: Yes; it's not usual. Barbara: It's not normal. Dennis: So, he asked you out twice before you said, “Yes.” Katie: He did. He asked me out a couple of times; and both times, I said, “No.” The second time, I really said, like firmly, “No,”—like, “Hey,— Barbara: Like “Don't-ask-again” no? 13:00 Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay.” [Laughter] Dennis: It was a “Dear John.” Katie: “We can't do that. I'm—no. No; thank you.” So, then, really, after that, I think I got to watch his heart on display a lot more; because I trusted that he wasn't going to ask me again. He was very respectful in that—he didn't really come over as much after that. He was still discipling the man that lived in the back of our yard, but he would come—he would go straight to Mack. He would spend his time with him, and he would leave. He would not come say, “Hello,” to me / he would not try to make conversation. I mean, I felt very respected in that—that he didn't. He heard what I said, and he didn't push the boundaries. I got to watch him and his heart for people, and for service, and truly for the gospel through that. He was also attending this large Bible study that we all went to on Wednesday nights. 14:00 He often led worship or even led the teaching at that Bible study. I was just—I was so attracted to his heart for the Lord. I was telling my good friend, like: “Oh my gosh. I think I like him; but now, I can't tell him; because he's never going to ask—he's not going to ask me out again. There is no hope.” So, I did—I had to call him and ask him if he would come over for coffee; and he said, “No.” [Laughter] Barbara: He didn't want to risk it again; huh? Katie: Well, yes! I mean, I had said so— Barbara: Yes. Katie: —clearly that I didn't want to date him. What was he going to be doing having coffee with me? Why would you have coffee with a young, single female that wasn't going to date you? [Laughter] So, I had to beg and plead a little bit, you know: “Please, I need to talk to you about something important. Can you come? Can we just—can we just have a cup of coffee?” So, he finally said, “Yes.” Dennis: Oh no! You've got to say— Barbara: And he said? Dennis: Yes?—what happened over the cup of coffee? Katie: Well, then, I was so nervous. 15:00 I made like dumb small talk the whole time; right? So, after about an hour, he's looking at his watch; and he's like— Barbara: “Okay?” Katie: —“Okay; well, this was nice. I think I'm going to go.” So, then, I just kind of blurted out some words that probably didn't even make sense—like: “You know, I was thinking / I was wondering if, maybe—do you want to like—we could spend more time together, you know, intentionally; you know?” Barbara: Real coherent; right? Katie: Right; exactly. He's just kind of looking at me; and finally, he said, “Like—like dating?” I said, “Well, yes.” He said, “Okay; I'm going to pray about that,” and he left! [Laughter] Dennis: He didn't go for the bait! Katie: What I didn't know, at the time—which is amazingly the Lord's provision and just further confirmation that we both really were trying to seek after Him— 16:00 —was that he had been in conversation, earlier that week, with some of his supporters in the States about whether or not his time in Uganda was coming to a close. He felt like he had pretty effectively discipled these 30 men. They were all kind of going out into the world and starting churches and discipling other young men. He felt like: “Okay; I could kind of take under my wing another group,” or “I could just keep in touch with this group via Skype and internet. Maybe, my time here is coming to a close.” He had been in conversation with people about whether or not he was moving back when he got my phone call asking him to come to coffee. What I didn't know, when he said he needed to pray about this, was this was a much bigger decision than “Am I going to date this girl?” This was a decision for him of: “Is there more of life for me in Uganda right now?” 17:00 Dennis: And so, how long did you date? Katie: Probably, almost a year from that point until we got engaged; and then, we were engaged for about eight months. Dennis: Time out. How did he propose? Katie: It was so sweet. He actually—he's such a good dad—he took all the girls out for ice cream earlier in the week. He just said to me like—and he would do this sometimes—he would say: “I'm going to take the girls out to eat,” or “I'm going to take them down to the river to play for a little bit so that you can get some quiet.” He had taken the girls out for ice cream and took them over to his house, actually, and sat them all down and said: “I would like to propose to your mom. What do you think about that?” They all gave feedback; and then, he let them help him plan how he would propose to me. Dennis: Wow. Barbara: That's so sweet! Katie: He showed them the ring, and he let them— Barbara: So sweet. Katie: —he let it be a family affair, which I just loved that he knew my heart well enough to know that I would have felt like something was missing if they hadn't been a part of that. 18:00 Actually, our best friends came to babysit the girls; and he took me back over to his place. There was a picnic laid out—his yard is kind of right on the edge of the lake that we live nearby—and he proposed. Then, as soon as I said, “Yes,” all our girls came running out of the bushes. They had watched the whole thing. Barbara: Oh how sweet! Oh, I love it. Katie: They were so excited, and they had picked flowers. They were throwing them on us—it was so sweet. Barbara: So, did anybody capture any photos of that—I hope? Katie: No. Barbara: I'm just thinking, “Oh, I wish I could have seen that.” It just sounds delightful. Dennis: Great video. Katie: I know! Barbara: Even just a few still photographs. Katie: It was so dark, but it's like seared in my memory forever! Barbara: I'm sure it is; yes. Dennis: So, back to my original question, at the beginning of the broadcast: “Katie Davis Majors, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?” 19:00 Katie: That is a hard question, but I think—I think the most courageous thing that I have ever done is to trust God when I can't see what He's doing. I don't think that's a courage that has come from me. I think that God, Himself, has allowed me the grace to continue to trust Him. I think that that's the most courageous thing that any of us can do—is to continue to put our hope and our trust in God, even when we don't really feel like it. He has shown me that that hope does not disappoint me because, even when I don't get what I want, I get more of Him—I get to know Him more / I get to know sides of Him that I wouldn't have known if I hadn't scooted up next to Him like that. Bob: So, you're saying, even if the olive tree is barren— Katie: Yes! Bob: —and the leaves are withering— 20:00 —to say, “I'm still going to trust Him.” That's where real courage comes from. Katie: I think that that is real courage. Dennis: As you were talking, I couldn't help but think of this passage in Romans, Chapter 5. Katie: I love this one. Dennis: “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces— Katie: —“hope.” Dennis: —“hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” Katie: Yes! Dennis: God in you—changing you. Katie: Yes. Dennis: Great answer to the question. Katie: Thanks. Bob: Well, and there is a lot of courage that shows up in the book that you've written called Daring to Hope. It's a book that tells the story of how God has been with you in the midst of suffering / how you've seen His goodness in the brokenness of where you live and work. 21:00 I would encourage our listeners: Get a copy of Katie's book, Daring to Hope. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” You know, one of the things that, Dennis, both you and I love to hear are stories of redemption—people whose lives were broken / headed in the wrong direction—they were in the ditch, as you like to say—and God intervenes and turns them in a new direction and points them in a new direction—turns their whole life around. Recently, we got a chance to meet with a number of listeners, who said FamilyLife Today was a part of their redemption story. 22:00 Some of the stories we heard were just remarkable. I was sitting there, thinking, “I wish our Legacy Partners / I wish the folks who help support this ministry could be here with us, hearing these stories, because that's what you're giving to when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.” You're helping us reach more people more regularly with practical biblical help and hope. And here, as 2017 is drawing to a close, I know some of you are thinking about possible yearend donations to ministries like ours. There is a special opportunity for you to give over the next couple of weeks—it's a matching-gift fund that's been established for this ministry. Michelle Hill is here with details on how we're doing with that matching-gift fund. Hi, Michelle! 23:00 Michelle: Hey Bob…well by now many folks have heard that the match fund has more than doubled (it's now 4.3 million dollars) but the real important number is one, as in that one person listening right now and deciding to give…and maybe you're that one? J I mean really Bob, the match isgoing to be met one gift at a time…and so far over five thousand people have made that decision. So, thanks to each one…like Don from Canton, Ohio? Today we're at NINE HUNDRED SEVENTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS...which is great! BUT…if we're going to take full advantage of the match, we'll need a lot of other ones to pray and then give as God leads. Bob: Well, and if you'd like to be a part of helping us take full advantage of the matching gift, you can make a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to donate—1-800-358-6329 is the number—1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”; or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. 24:00 And if you haven't sent us a Christmas card yet, send a Christmas card and just tuck something inside; okay? And I hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we're going to hear a conversation we had, not long ago, with our friends, Don and Sally Meredith. This is a remarkable couple who God used in a significant way to help birth the ministry of FamilyLife all the way back in 1976. I hope you can tune in and meet our friends, Don and Sally Meredith. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Lessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 1) - Crawford Loritts

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 27:41

Lessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 1) - Crawford LorittsLessons From a Father That Was Always There (Part 2) - Crawford LorittsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Modeling Integrity Guest: Crawford Loritts From the series: Lessons from a Father Who Was Always There (Day 1 of 2) Bob: Dr. Crawford Loritts is profoundly aware of how his life was marked and shaped by a father who was there. Crawford: My dad used to say to me as I was growing up—and particularly as I was facing difficult times and, maybe, I didn't want to follow through on something; and I said I was going to do something—boy, he would pull me aside and say: “Son, all you have at the end of the day is what you say. That's all you have. That's all you have, and you better be good by what comes out of your mouth—integrity. If you say you are this, then it needs to be reflected in how you act.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, March 12th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. A lot of what Crawford Loritts understood about parenting came from watching a father who did the job well. We'll hear more from him today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, we've often said that behind every great man, there's a great woman or that we stand on the shoulders of others. I don't know how often it's been reflected on that behind great men and women are often faithful moms and dads, who did their job well and created a foundation for their sons and daughters to grow up in where those sons and daughters thrived. Dennis: You know, as you talk about that, I can't help but think about our guest on the program today, who gave a message at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission's Parenting Conference, back last August. I sat in the audience as I listened to my friend, Crawford Loritts, speak about his heritage that Crawford was given by his great grandfather, Peter, whom he described as a praying, singing slave. 2:00 Bob: Yes. Dennis: And he passed on a living faith that, now, resides in Crawford's life and in, also, Crawford's four children; and I think, soon, his ten grandchildren as well. Bob: Yes; Crawford is a friend of ours. He and his wife Karen have spoken at Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for years. Crawford is also the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Roswell, Georgia, suburban Atlanta. He's spoken around the world on a variety of issues, including marriage and family. His message, at the parenting conference you were attending, was a riveting message. In fact, we thought, “This is one our listeners need to hear.” So, today, we're going to hear Part One of Crawford Loritts talking about lessons he learned on integrity from a father who lived it. 3:00 [Recorded Message] Crawford: About 20 years ago, I wrote a book entitled Never Walk Away: Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It; obviously, it was about my dad's incredible impact on my heart and life. In fact, next to Jesus Christ, my father has had the most important, strategic, wonderful influence on my life. Who I am today—so much of what I think, and how I feel, and how I act, and, particularly, my approach to my marriage and our family—has Pop's signature all over me. You know, Dan Fogelberg wrote a song a number of years ago—a ballad. Part of the refrain of that song goes something like this: “The leader of the band is tired; his eyes are growing cold. His blood is in my instrument, and his song is my soul. My life is just a poor attempt to imitate the man. 4:00 “I'm just the living legacy to leader of the band.” My father was a grandson of a slave. He was born in 1914—February 13, 1914. He was the youngest boy of 14 children. So, his grandfather Peter / my great grandfather was a slave. Peter, they say—my dad remembers him: “Peter lived to be an old man. Peter was a singing and praying man,” he said. Some of my father's most vivid memories were seeing his grandfather rock back and forth on the old homestead there in Catawba County, North Carolina, a place called Newton Conover, where he would just sing and pray. Peter was an illiterate man—couldn't read / couldn't write—but he loved Jesus, and—get this—he passionately loved the Word of God. The story is told / the legend is—he would have his children and grandchildren read him familiar passages of Scripture over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. 5:00 The old boy had committed a lot of that to memory. Here's what I want you to catch. Despite the fact that Peter was a slave—and let's not glorify slavery—families were intentionally broken up. When young boys reached about 14/15/16 years of age, they bought a high price—they were studded out, so to speak. It was not our most bright and shining moment—it created a whole lot of damnable things that we are still dealing with in our culture today. But despite all of that, I don't know what happened to Peter. Peter developed a passion and a love for God and a love for his family. Because of his commitment to Jesus Christ and his commitment to his family, he forged generations of strong men, strong male leadership, and strong families. 6:00 I stand here just humbled—I don't take credit for any of this. I don't know why I was born and raised in a household, where my dad showed up, and where he loved the Lord, and he loved his family, and he left his signature over us. Why wasn't I born in a situation where he wasn't there? Why wasn't I born with huge deficits in my heart and life? And what I want to say today, and underscore before us, is that we—one of my great concerns where evangelicalism is going today is that—somehow or another, in our desire to become intellectually palatable, and acceptable in the marketplace of life, and to broker influences in the corridors of power, and to not be looked at as dumb and stupid Christians—part of my concern is that we are wandering away from the spiritual core of who we really are and the power that's necessary and needed. 7:00 Don't ever underestimate the gospel, and don't ever underestimate the power of the Spirit of God, and don't ever underestimate the power of prayer to change your life and future generations—that is to be the centerpiece of parenting. It's not the quid pro quo, or the various strategies and coping mechanisms—although they might be important—and the tips that we get in the books that we read, and the blogs that we read, and podcasts, and that kind of thing—absolutely wonderful. At the end of the day, the thing that is going to shape your future—shape your family / help your child to make it home before dark, spiritually—is a few callouses on your knees, with an open Bible, and a walk before God. That must never be forsaken. That has got to be the centerpiece of what we're really, really all about. Pop always showed up. He wasn't perfect, but he was a man of impeccable integrity—impeccable integrity. 8:00 My father—this is not Pollyanna-ish / I'm not revisiting history—but my dad never made a promise to me or my sisters that he did not keep. Now, he may have said, “Son, I will be at your ballgame,”—and he discovered he had to work and had to work something else out—but on balance, he never made a promise that he didn't keep. His word was his bond. He was a little bit paranoid about showing up. In fact, I couldn't even quit a part-time job that I had as a teenager—I better have a good excuse for that—because he said, “If you told that man you're going to show up, you show up.” And we've kind of raised our kids the same way, especially our boys. When they were playing sports—my rule around the household: “If you play, you stay. You don't quit because it's hard. You don't quit because it's difficult. You don't quit because there is a little bit of opposition. You don't quit because you don't like this situation. You show up. You finish the endurance ride.” The essence of parenting is to be a portrait of the desired destination. 9:00 The essence of parenting is not necessarily great insights and tools. The truth of the matter is that the power and the authority that we have to shape the next generation is lodged in what we model and what they see in front of us and not necessarily what we say. In fact, that is what the Bible is all about—the Bible is into prophetic leadership; that is, if you are going to lead anything in the Scripture—and this is the reason why character is so terribly important—if you are going to lead anything in the Scripture, it's not about your ability to plan, and to have insights, and to line things up, and to recruit, and to develop the resources, and to think outside the box—and all of these things that we celebrate today—but if you are going to lead anything in the Bible—anything that has God's name over it / anything that stewards what God wants to do from one generation to the next—then you have to embrace the reality that you've got to be the portrait of the desired destination. 10:00 There's no other way! Whatever I want my children to be, they have to see it in me. They have to see me aggressively moving toward that because they were born—they were born to be drawn toward what they see—what they see. Now, my daddy—he didn't have a college degree / he was a salt-of-the-earth kind of person—but his understanding of the Word of God, and his understanding of what it took to be the leader in his household, and what he saw from his father Milton / my grandfather and his great grandfather Peter, he passed on. He realized, if he didn't want his children to lie, he better not be telling a bunch of lies. He understood, if he wanted his children to be people who would stand up and look people in the eye and tell the truth and follow through on their commitments, then he had better do the same. If he wanted kids that would love their wives and husbands— 11:00 —and put them first in their lives—then he better not dog out my mother and put her down or disrespect her. If he wanted us kids to go to church, then he needed to make sure that he was there, leading the way—integrity, integrity, integrity. Integrity is a state of being whole / undivided moral predictability—behavior and choices that reflect your core beliefs and convictions. That's what integrity is really all about. My dad used to say to me, as I was growing up—and particularly as I was facing difficult times and, maybe, I didn't want to follow through on something; and I said I was going to do something—boy, he would pull me aside and say: “Son, all you have at the end of the day is what you say. That's all you have. That's all you have, and you better be good by what comes out of your mouth—integrity. If you say you are this, then it needs to be reflected in how you act.” 12:00 Parenting is all about preparing a generation for a time that you cannot see, and that's the driving force behind all of us. One of the great benefits of suffering and one of the great benefits of Jim Crow—interestingly enough, in the sovereignty of God, is they didn't have a lot of margin / they didn't have a lot of filler / they didn't have a lot of applause from the broader community. My great grandfather, my grandfather, my dad, and my uncles—who grew up during Jim Crow—they realized that all they had was one another, and all they had was home. They were passionate about things becoming better, and they had a vision for you doing more than what they were able to do. Parenting takes a look at where things ought to be, and where that child could be, and leverages the moment in history to get them there— 13:00 —that's what parenting is all about. Your child is just passing through, and our job is to point them toward God and point them toward the door—that's what our responsibility is. Thank you, Jesus! [Laughter] When my father was dying, back in 1995—he had congestive heart failure—and the last three years of his life [were] very difficult for me, because here's a man who worked hard his whole life. My father worked—he usually was working more than one job and took care of his family. His great joy was being able to provide for us. To see him go downhill was just—I mean, it was just gut-wrenching for me—strong, yet he could barely make it. Well, the end was coming, and he was dying. I'll never forget this—it was a poignant moment. I was standing next to his bedside; and he just looked at me in a moment of lucidity and said, “Boy, I did the best I could.” 14:00 I said, “Pop, you did a great job!” He said, “Son, I want you to take care of your mom and your sisters.” What was he doing?—he was passing a torch / passing a baton—“The race is over.” My whole life, I've always wanted to be like him—my whole life. I always wanted to think like him—my whole life. I'm in leadership now. I tell people all the time: “You know, my greatest lessons in leadership—sorry, I mean, I should have read your blog [Laughter]; and I didn't read your book—sorry! [Laughter] But my greatest lessons in leadership came from the grandson of a slave, who— 15:00 —“day in and day out, and day in and day out, every day of his life—showed up. When he would blow it and mess up, he'd make it right.” I'll tell you this quick story before I slide into 1 Kings, Chapter 2, and talk about the handoff; and I'll be done. When I was 12 years old, you know, I was a typical 12-year-old guy. I had a number of brain cramps. [Laughter] On the way to school in the spring, we would walk past this factory that made these chains. I don't know why I did this; but I was with some friends of mine—we would—there were some open boxes, and we stole some chains. It was like chain necklaces and stuff. We stole them and thought we had gotten away with something. This was the absolute worse day of my life, though, because of what happened. My father used to work nights, but he rotated one evening a week that he was off. He happened to be off that evening, in the providence and sovereignty of God. [Laughter] 16:00 The telephone rang at the house, and it was a policewoman named Mrs. Brown. Yes; I don't want to say some things; this is being recorded. Mrs. Brown—let's just say she was tough. [Laughter] There was this kid by the name of Stanley that looked just like me—believe it or not. I know it's impossible—we could pass for twins. Well, when Mrs. Brown called the house, my mother gave the phone to my dad; and my dad's listening. As she's talking to him, he's looking at me; and I'm saying, “This is not going to end well.” So, she told him—well, Stanley had told Mrs. Brown where to go, where she didn't need an overcoat; okay?—you got that picture? She thought that I told her that. Now, I have to confess, I felt like it on a number of occasions; but I didn't do that—didn't do it. 17:00 Pop hangs up the phone. He looks at me and said, “Boy, have you lost your mind?!” I was talking fast: “Pop, I didn't do that. I didn't disrespect— I didn't do that.” Right after that—I kid you not—there was a knock on the front door. He opens the door, and there were policemen there. What had happened was that my friends, who had stolen the chains—and I was a part of that group—told on me—they had gotten caught. This was the worst night of my young life. I won't bore you with all the details of the story, but I will tell you this—at the—we went down to the factory and got the liver scared out of us. Pop dropped a couple of those boys off—they didn't have dads in the home. When we walked into the house, I had not seen my dad cry, except for at funerals of his siblings. I'll never forget this—he looked at me, and a tear began to trickle down his cheeks. 18:00 He said, “Son, you hurt my heart.” Then, he did a few other things to make sure my behavior would line up with the expectations. [Laughter] So “Yes; you weren't hurt that bad.” [Laughter] That crushed me—it broke me / it broke me. I forgot about the other exclamation mark, but the reason why it broke me is because I always wanted to be like my father; and he would not have done that! He said: “Son, if you want something, you ask me. You don't ever have to steal anything. You hurt my heart.” [Studio] Bob: Well, we're going to break in here. We've been listening to the first part of a message from our friend, Crawford Loritts, talking about the important role that his father played in marking his own life. 19:00 I don't know that we, as parents, understand how our example, our model, our words, our actions—they are indelibly imprinting things on the hearts and minds of our children—things that will live with them for decades. Dennis: And turn them from doing what's wrong— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —to do what's right. I know we've been talking about the power of a dad, who has integrity; but moms are powerful too, as well, Bob. I just want to encourage moms and dads today to assume your office—the great privilege of being a dad and a mom—to assume it with integrity and to make sure that your words / as much as possible that your words match up with your life. In other words, you do what you say you're going to do—you fulfil your promises. 20:00 I look back on my dad, and my dad didn't need a bunch of lawyers to be tied up to make sure he fulfilled his promises. All you needed from my dad was a handshake, and it was good. If he gave his word, he was going to do it. Bob, I don't know who I would be today if I had not observed a man, who came from a broken home—my dad's father abandoned his eight children back in a time when it wasn't culturally acceptable in anyway whatsoever—yet, my dad was not a victim. My dad earned his living and grew up within three miles of the log cabin where he was born, and he died with a good name. I can just say to you, as a listener: “One of the greatest gifts you will give your children is that of a good name—a father / a mother, who lived out what he or she believes in front of your children. 21:00 “There's a great need for that as never before.” Bob: You know, we're about six or seven weeks, now, from releasing a resource that we have been working on for more than a year now that, actually, Crawford's son, Bryan, and his daughter-in-law, Korie, are a part of. It's a video series called FamilyLife's Art of Parenting™, eight sessions that you can go through in a small group; or there is going to be a digital experience of The Art of Parenting, something you can go through as a couple, online. All of this is designed to help moms and dads understand what the biblical priorities for parenting ought to be. In fact, we're kicking all of this off with a movie that's going to be in theaters for two nights only—May 1st and May 3rd—a movie we've produced called Like Arrows—got help with this from our friends, Alex and Stephen Kendrick. Alex has a role in the film, and it's all designed to raise the issue of parenting. 22:00 We really want to begin a movement of intentional parenting in our culture, and that's what these resources are all about. You can find out more about what's coming when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the parenting link you see there. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Let me also mention—Dr. Crawford Loritts has written a book about his father—a book called Never Walk Away: Lessons on Integrity from a Father Who Lived It. It's a book that we have in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order the book from us, online, as well, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” You know, I mentioned this new emphasis on parenting—one of the things we are working on is a strategy to get this material into the hands and hearts of people who don't listen to FamilyLife Today— 23:00 —folks who may not be actively involved in a local church—but people who would be open to understanding what the Bible teaches about how we raise the next generation. We believe there are a lot of folks like that. We are developing strategies, right now, that will help us get this material into their hands. We've calculated—it's going to take us $10 a home to be able to reach someone with this content and get them engaged with what they're hearing. Of course, they'll have the chance to hear the gospel as we do that. We'd love to ask you to help support the work that we're doing to help us reach more people with God's design for marriage and family. It's easy enough to do. You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. When you get in touch with us and make a donation, as a way of saying, “Thank you,” we want to send you seven prayer cards. These are designed so that you, as a parent or grandparent, can be praying more purposefully/more intentionally for your children or your grandchildren. 24:00 They tuck right into your Bible—they are our gift to you when you donate to help us reach more folks with practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families. We look forward to hearing from you, and thanks for your partnership with us. And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow when we are, again, going to hear from Dr. Crawford Loritts about the priorities of parents. I hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; A Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna Bishop

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 31:16

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgetting What Lies Behind Guest: John and Donna BishopFrom the series: God is So Good Bob: There are moments that come along unexpectedly – moments where the foundation of our life or our marriage is rattled. John and Donna Bishop experienced one of those moments 15 years ago. Donna: Everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord. Our boys and our families and then, all of a sudden, that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital," and so I took him to the hospital and … John: When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her. I really didn't know anything. I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 4th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What happens to a marriage when, all of a sudden, all the memories, all of the past, is gone. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. This is going to be a powerful week for our listeners. Dennis: It is. In fact, Bob, you and I both talked about this interview that our listeners are about to hear. It's a top five broadcast – you and I have been doing interviews for – well, coming up on 16 years – that's a few people. I'm kind of looking across at you, and I'm kind of going, "That's a long time." Bob: You're an old-looking guy. Dennis: We're kind of getting to be codgers in here. But, I'm going to tell you, pull up a chair, get you a cup of coffee or a Coke or a glass of water. This week you are going to hear an incredible compelling story of the goodness of God and the love of God. This is another one of those love stories, Bob, that Hollywood just knows very little about. This is a love story right from the pages of Scripture. Bob: Yes, you're going to meet John and Donna Bishop today. They were married back in 1974. John is a pastor and an evangelist. They live in Rosebud, Arkansas, which is in north central Arkansas. Dennis: It's just near Hopewell, which is a suburb of Heber Springs. Bob: Oh, now folks have got it perfectly in mind. They know exactly where that … Dennis: They know exactly where that is. Bob: John and Donna have three sons, and, as you are about to find out, their story is a remarkable one. John: All I remember is from 1995 to this day. I remember nothing before that, so everything about my life that happened beforehand is what I've been told. And my wife, her name, Donna, but I called her "my Donna." When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her. I didn't know me, my name, I didn't know – I really didn't know anything. I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. I didn't know how to eat, I'd forgotten how to chew food, and I had to eat baby food, and I don't blame babies being grouchy, if you had to eat that long. Dennis: So, okay, I'm going to stop you right there. John: Okay. Dennis: Since Donna does know what was taking place in your life up to 1995, I'm going to turn to her. Describe your lives in the 1990s, Donna. What was John doing and what were you up to? Donna: Okay. We were pastoring a church there in Heber Springs, and we had a good church. We enjoyed everything was going great. We had three sons, and they were growing up. We also worked on our youth camp there, lived on the campgrounds and started the youth camp, and were just – I would say it was a perfect life. You know, everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord, our boys, and our families, and then, all of a sudden that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital." So I took him to the hospital and … Bob: So it came on in an instant like that. One night? Donna: No, he had been a little sick, just having headaches and so forth, and then it just started getting severe that night, and we just took him to the hospital. Bob: Were you scared? Donna: In a way, you know, because the pain just kept getting worse, you know, so – but, you know, you always think, "Oh, we can take him to the hospital and they'll be fine," you know, "be home tomorrow." Dennis: Right. Donna: But he was there about five days, six days, and he got to feeling better and, of course, once men start feeling better, they want to get out of that hospital, and so he got out of the hospital and came home, and it was almost one month to the day, he got out of the hospital is really when I believe the damage was done, or that's when something happened that he was sitting in his rocking chair, had his devotions over in a rocking chair, and he just kept sitting there and sitting there, and I thought, "Okay," you know, "let's get on with things," and he just kept sitting there. And so I went over and shook him, and he couldn't wake up, he couldn't – he was just kind of staring off. And I said, "John, what's the matter John?" And I was talking to him, and he just couldn't answer me, and then, of course, we took him back to the doctor, and it was just from there on it's been slow go. Bob: Now, the diagnosis was aseptic meningitis? Donna: Yes, sir. Bob: And this response, a month after the initial diagnosis, this is not what usually happens to people who have meningitis, is it? Donna: No, sir. You know, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but I don't know if we didn't give him the medicine long enough or exactly what it is, but I know the Lord has a reason for it, and so – because that was when everything started going down hill, you might say, to us, you know, because he couldn't walk, and we had to help him around, and his eyes were distorted, so he couldn't drive, and he couldn't – well, he didn't know how to read, he forgot how to read. Dennis: And, ultimately, he lost all of his memory prior to 1995? Donna: Yes, sir. And I kept thinking, "Okay, now, he'll get it back," so he didn't remember marriage or wedding, and so I get our photo album out, and I said, "Don't you remember" you know, and I'd try to trick him to say, "Okay, now, I know he can remember something," and I just kept trying to go back and – but he just doesn't have anything. Dennis: In 1995, you'd been married how long? Donna: Twenty-four years. Dennis: Twenty-four years, had three children, you were pastoring a church, and you'd started a ranch? Donna: Yes, sir. It's a youth camp, a church youth camp for boys and girls that come there. Dennis: All right, John, back to you. How do you develop a relationship with a wife that you don't remember marrying? Bob: Well, you didn't even know what marriage was, did you? John: No, I didn't. When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I, Donna, we're married." And the way I learned to talk, Bob, in those early days, I'd watch people's lips move. I wasn't blind then. I've only been blind about eight months, but I would watch people's lips move and put the sound with it. I said, "Marry? Marry?" and she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that. That means you belong to me, and I belong to you." I looked at her, I'd say, "You my Donna?" She said, "Yes." That's what I call her ever since – "My Donna." It was so easy to love her. She loved me so good. I'd tell people she taught me everything I know – every woman dream come true. Her husband forget it all and she get to teach him. [laughter] Everything I know is what my wife taught me. But I tell everybody she taught me reading, writing, and kissing, and my favorite subject kissing, that's my favorite one. Dennis: So that didn't change? John: No, that didn't. I didn't – I had a hard time finding her lips, but I kissed until I find them, that's what I do. [laughter] Dennis: Donna, what kind of student was he? Donna: He worked hard, he really did. He's a pretty good student. Sometimes when he's done, he's done, you know? Sometimes he'd tell me, he said, "Remember, I'm the husband." Dennis: Oh, so he did find out what that meant? Donna: Oh, yes, it didn't take him long to have that man thing, I guess. Bob: It's one thing to take your husband to the hospital and maybe he comes home with a physical disability, and now life is going to have to change because he has to use a walker, or he's got to be in a wheelchair, or he's got something physically that's an issue, but to have a husband come home – I had a friend describe your husband's condition by saying, "It's like a computer that had the hard disk completely erased. There is no data left there." To have that be the situation and to be a wife and go, "This is the man I went to Bible school with and raised my kids, and he can't remember any of it. Our shared history is gone." That had to be – I can't even imagine the discouragement that you must have felt. Donna: It was very discouraging, and that's why I kept trying to do those tricks, trying to think, "Okay, he's got to remember something," you know? It was hard. It was almost like I had four boys instead of three. Dennis: Was there anything to prepare you for the kind of commitment this was going to take? I mean, marriage is a covenant, but your commitment was challenged to the core, wasn't it? Donna: Yes, sir, it sure was. I thank the Lord. I think the main reason was because I had a good home church when I grew up, and I went to church faithfully, my parents loved each other, and I was always taught that when you're married, you're married for life. And when you say "For better for worse, in sickness and health," you're in for the long haul, you know? And so I never even thought about divorce – that never even crossed my mind. In a way, I guess I just busied myself into fixing the problem, you know? Okay, we've got a problem here. We need to start working on it, and, Lord, you've just got to help give me wisdom to know – because, also, all the decisions that he made as the husband now were put on me as far as my children and how many doctors to go to and who to go to and who not to go to, and I always tell ladies now, I say, "Listen, you need to thank the Lord for your husband's leadership." I mean, I was always thankful for my husband to make the decisions and so forth, but when I had to take that role, it was just something that made me appreciate the position that God has given me to be under my husband so that he could make those decisions for me. And so I'm just very thankful that I was taught those things, and God's just really helped me through these things. Dennis: How old were those children at the time? Donna: My youngest was 10, the next one was, like, 17, and my other one was, like, 22, I think. Dennis: Wow, there was a lot going on in your life just raising them. Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: Now, John, I want you to know we haven't forgotten you. John: Okay. Dennis: We know you're here, but we have to get a little bit of the drama that's taking place. John: Yes. Dennis: You came out of the hospital and arrived back home, and you were in a state of – was it almost like paralysis? Or were you just – you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk. You could see – you had eyesight, right? John: Yes, uh-huh. Dennis: You could hear. John: Yes. Dennis: But you didn't know how to eat? John: No, and I didn't know what words were. That's why I couldn't read or write, and my Donna taught me phonics, finally, and my 10-year-old son would come home from school, sit on the couch and help Daddy learn to read. And my oldest son was in college, the other just finishing high school, been going college, but my family just so good to me, people were just so good. My church was so – I remember, even, when she brought me home from hospital that one time, and they opened the door of car, my dog, golden retriever, came over put head in lap, and I said, "Even my dog loved me." It wasn't really a bad world to wake up to, because everybody in it loved me. And, you know, my first memories of anything about life was my Donna rubbing my hand, telling me, "I love you, it will be all right, everything will be all right," and … Dennis: You knew what those words meant? John: In some way I did. She would have to been sort of point out to me what, like, words "good" and "bad" meant and it's hard to really explain. It was just a blank, and so she would begin to do – teach me these different things, and then as I began to pick up concepts is what it was, and the way I picked up on reading, I couldn't figure out what letters on books – how are they reading. Until one day she got me dressed for church and set me in the living room and on the coffee table was a kindergarten book she going to teach that morning Sunday school and big pictures, Bible story, and what I did, Dennis, I would listen to the Bible every day on tape, because I couldn't read, and I would listen to two tapes a day, three hours, and I remember when she told me what the Bible was – see, I didn't know what I was, either? I said, "What am I?" She said, "You a preacher." I said, "What a preacher is?" And she said, "Well, that's somebody tell others what God what them know." I said, "Wow, I couldn't be thing better that. You reckon Lord let me keep doing it?" And I began to learn concepts, and when I saw those pictures and the big words underneath it, "Moses" and "Red Sea," then I knew that was what I'd been listening to in Bible, and I hollered, "Donna, I can read, I can read." Then I knew what words were, and so that's how I began learning. Dennis: Yeah, how did you know who God was? John: You know, I knew I knew God but I didn't know how I knew God and, matter of fact, in the hospital, one of my doctors said this – I would mumble things, because I knew I supposed to say things, but I didn't know how to. So my doctor said the only word we could make out was the word "God," and it was, like, Dennis, I forgot everybody and everything but God. But I didn't know how I knew Him until through the Bible listening. Of course, my family telling me, "You're a Christian," but I didn't know what that was, and, you know, my church told me, and they loved me, and so forth, but it was a process of me learning and listening to the Bible and what gave me the great assurance was Romans, chapter 8, where he says, "His spirit bear witness with our spirit that we're children of God." And I'd gotten a little worried. You know, it was – when I'd listen to the Bible, Judas Iscariot scared me, because I thought, "Here a preacher that didn't really know or love the Lord." So I thought "Just because I preacher doesn't mean I really know the Lord and just because people tell me," but when I listened to that verse, it was like God said, "John, it my job tell you you're my child. That's my spirit witnessing and after that I never had doubt after that I had that assurance in my heart from this word. That's how I know you, God, but I can't remember praying a prayer. I wrote it in my Bible as a teenage boy, and I've still got that, and some people, Dennis, just put a date. I wrote a whole page, and I treasure that. God knew I'd lose it all one day, and I had a whole page. I was brought up in a lost home. My dad and stepdad had died before my illness, so I don't have any memory of them, but my mother was still alive. She with the Lord now, and Mama told me that I from an alcoholic home. She said, "John, I'm glad you forgot your childhood, it was real rough," but she said I led my dad to the Lord before he had died, my stepdad, and I led her to the Lord. You know, I told my family, "Don't tell me everything, just what I need to know," because you don't really want to know everything sometime," so when I went to Mama's funeral, my aunt came up and said, "John, you used to send your mom a rose every year for she was sober after she got saved." And I said, "Stella, what would this be?" She said, "It would be 12." And so I bought 12 roses and put there, and my aunt and I knew what it was. And so the Lord has been good to help me, and I so glad Mama got to – she'd one day telling me about childhood. I said, "Boy, Mama, I didn't know I was such a good boy." She said, "Remember, I just tell the half of it." [laughter] Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 1 of an incredible story as we have talked to John and Donna Bishop about what the Lord took them through. This is more than a decade ago, now, Dennis, and, you know, all of us, as we shared our vows with one another getting married, we pledged for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, and we may have stopped to think, "Well, how bad can it be?" or "How sick can somebody get?" Who could imagine a scenario like this, like what Donna faced? It's remarkable. Dennis: It really is, Bob, and I just want to let our listeners in on a little secret – don't miss the rest of the story – just the love story that we've heard of Donna Bishop hanging in there with her husband. I know we're talking to some spouses right now who are hanging in there with the person they pledged through sickness and in health, for better, for worse, and right now it's sickness, and it's worse. You needed to hear the story to give you courage, and I just want to read you Paul's great writings about what love is, because the world cheapens what love is, and the Bible speaks so clearly. I'm not going to read all of it, but 1 Corinthians 13, verse 4, "Love is patient, love is kind. It's not jealous, does not brag, and is not arrogant." Verse 7 – "It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things" – now, listen to these last three words – "endures all things." The only way you get that kind of love is by knowing the God – the God who redeemed John and Donna Bishop and who put that kind of love in their hearts for one another. Bob: And that's the – as they used to say, "That's the genuine article." Dennis, right after we had finished talking with the Bishops, I asked if I could get a couple of copies of the CD of the interview, because I meet with a group of guys on Wednesday night, and I wanted them to hear the conversation, and those guys came back the following Wednesday, and they said, "Can we get more copies of that CD? We've got friends we want to send it to. There are people who need to hear this powerful story." And we do have CDs of our conversation with John and Donna available in our FamilyLife Resource Center. If you are interested in getting a copy or multiple copies to share with friends, go to our website, FamilyLife.com. You can click on where it says, "Today's Broadcast," on the right side of the home page, and that will take you to a part of the site where there is more information about how to order the CD of this conversation and how you can get multiple copies, if you'd like. Again, the website if FamilyLife.com, and you click on the right side of the home page where you see "Today's Broadcast," or just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of the CD sent to you. You know, when you pull back a story like this, and you hear from a couple like John and Donna, you know that the storm that they faced, they endured, and they stayed strong, because they had spent years building a foundation in their relationship that kept them pressed close to God and close to one another. Dennis: That's right. Bob: I know when you and Barbara sat down and began working on the devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," your hope was that couples all across the country would establish a regular discipline of building their relationship with God and with one another by spending time together looking at His Word, considering the dynamics of a marriage relationship and then praying together each day for their marriage and for their family. And there have been thousands of folks who have contacted us and asked for a copy of this devotional book, "Moments With You." This week we're making it available to our listeners who contact us to make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today. If you go online at FamilyLife.com, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY, and you make a donation of any amount, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the hardback book, the 365-day devotional for couples called "Moments With You." Now, if you're making your donation online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "You" – y-o-u. And we'll know to send a copy of the book your way. Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, make a donation of any amount over the phone and just request a copy of the devotional guide for couples, "Moments With You." We're happy to send it to you. We trust that you can use it to begin a regular habit in your marriage of coming together each day, taking a few minutes to read the Scriptures and to pray together, and we trust that God will use this tool in your life. And we appreciate your financial support for the ministry of FamilyLife Today as well. Thanks for partnering with us. Now, we want to invite you back tomorrow. We're going to begin to look carefully at what it took for John and Donna Bishop to rebuild their life and their marriage together after John's memory had been completely erased. I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

God is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna Bishop

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 29:46

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Making New Memories Guest: John and Donna BishopFrom the series: God is So Good Bob: The Bible teaches us a different way of thinking about trials, to count it all joy when we experience various trials. That can be easy to read but very difficult to do. Fifteen years ago, John Bishop lost his memory completely as a result of meningitis. In the years that followed, there were many difficulties the Bishop family faced. John: That night I hurting so bad, and I'd listen to Psalm, and it said, "O taste and see that the Lord is good," Psalm 34a – "Blessed is the man trusteth in Him," and I said, "God, I going to believe you're good. If I never get better I still going to believe you're good because that what Your Word says." And I said, "Lord, this must be what faith means is believing You even when I don't feel like it." So I'm going to believe God good whether I feel good or not. I'm going to believe God good whether I get better or not just because the Bible say it. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 6th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. No matter what happens in your life, can you say God is so good, and all His ways are good? And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. This past weekend we had a wedding. My daughter, Katy, became Mrs. Katy Walker, and … Dennis: How did you do? Bob: I was fine. I was thinking back to how all marriages start, and they all start with hopes and dreams and the expectation of a storybook romance and they all live happily ever after – that kind of a fairy tale scenario. Dennis: At least that's what we think is going to happen. But when we start out a marriage relationship, we have no idea what God has in store for our spouse or for us, as a couple. Bob: Yes, and as we've been hearing this week, John and Donna Bishop experienced a unique circumstance in their marriage 13 years ago when he lost all memory, and the story had to begin again with a whole new set of circumstances; that the love story had to start up again from scratch. And yet it's been remarkable to hear how God has sustained this couple and to hear them testify to His goodness in the midst of this kind of adversity. Dennis: And, you know, I want to turn to the listener at this point before you hear the rest of the story, and I want to encourage you to order a bunch of CDs and pass them out to your buddies. Bob: I've already done that. I took … Dennis: I have, too, Bob, I'm telling you, I'm going to talk to the folks down at the warehouse, and I'm going to see if we can't make a deal so that you can order these – this story in quantity and pass it out at church, pass it out in your neighborhood. This is going to be a story that I think is going to touch, literally, millions of people's lives around the nation. Bob: And as we hear part 3 of this story, we're beginning to get a picture of the tremendous impact John's illness had on a marriage and on a family. I mean, here were John and Donna raising three sons. Donna: It was hard on the boys. I think it's probably hardest maybe on my youngest son, because he was 10 years old, and I remember one day Luke came to me, and he said, "Mom, it's not fair, because my brothers had a daddy that got to play ball with them and go hunting with them and do fun things with him," and he caught me on an up day there, so I said, "I know, but you know the Lord's going to let him be special in a different way than he was with your brothers." And so I thank the Lord – my youngest son, he's a good boy, and I thank the Lord, and I think him and his dad are close. Bob: That had to break your heart, though, for your son to say, "It's not fair. I want a daddy like my brothers had." Donna: I know. It was – I struggle with the things – I was going to tell you that when – I remember one night John was laying on the couch there, and he said, "It's okay, God, that you let me be sick." Well, when he said that, you know, I said, "Oh, no, it's not okay." Because I just kept saying, "You know, Lord, you know, I married that other man back there, and I just would like to go back to that," and I struggled. That was one of my struggles – the Lord just saying, "Okay, Lord, it's okay." And it was easier for him to say it than for me to say it. I just had a hard time. And so the Lord and I have had many discussions over this. Bob: Do you feel like you've had two husbands? Donna: Yes, sir, I sure do. Dennis: What's the part of John before the illness that you miss the most? Donna: Probably the part just take the leadership and go on and just the energy just to go on and keep going into things. Dennis: So he was the leader, he was leading you and the family and the church and taking you in a direction. Donna: Yes, sir. And he was, you know, just never stopped, just keep going. Dennis: What's the part of the new John that you like the best? Donna: I like the best part is he's very loving, very kind. I guess the Lord slowed him down, and he slows down, and he appreciates things and is just – you know, when we slow down, it's amazing how many things we've learned to miss, you know, that we have missed along the way until we slow down. Dennis: John, as you hear your wife describe John prior to 1995, prior to the illness, as a man, and you are a man, I mean, you have to be like all the rest of us who want to say, "I want to be that man now." John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Do you feel that? John: Yes, I do, and yet they had some tapes of me preaching before my illness, but one day I listening one of my messages, and I was pretty harsh, and I was listening and "I don't like that guy," and I took tape out and threw it out window. [laughter] And I like the new me better. But, you know, my Donna puts it this way, said, before my illness I sort of knock them over the head but now I grab them by the heart. But, you know, I think the Lord just decided if I going to use John, I going to break him all the way down and start over. But what I know of me before, and what she telling me and so forth, I like the new me, and things don't bother me maybe like bother other people, because I've been through just so much, and not a whole lot more I could lose, you know? So, okay, that part of it, let's go on, and I have a good time. I tell people I'm a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but I'm happy. [laughter] Bob: You know, in circumstances like this, it's not unusual for people to say "Lord, why me? Why is this the path You put me on?" And it's not just the person who goes through the meningitis who asks that, but it's the person who is caring for the person who goes through the meningitis. How have you wrestled with the "Why me?" question, Donna? Donna: I have wrestled with it, that's, you know, why – you know, I kept telling the Lord, "Lord, we were fine," you know, "we were fine," but the Lord has just showed me, "Donna, I have something special for you," and I have learned so many things through this, and I thank the Lord that He's brought us through this because I love him more, and I love him in a different way, and it's closer, and God is able to use us. And if we're just willing to say, "Okay, Lord, it's all right. Whatever you bring to my life, I know it's for my good." Every day when I surrender the new thing that, "Okay, Lord, you can have that," and I was just – struggled. I hung onto the back things, I guess, because I could remember them. I hung onto the things in my past, and so – but every time I'd surrender, it was just so much better, and the Lord just eased and gave me so much comfort in knowing that the Lord has a reason for it. Bob: This is almost an impossible question for you to answer, but if the Lord came to you today and said, "Okay, I'll give you the old John, and we'll start from here with things the way they were, and we'll take everything of the last 15 years." Dennis: That's a hard question. Bob: You can have your choice, what do you want? If you could go back and undo the last 15 years and just kind of be on the path you were on, which is what you longed for at some point, would you pick that, do you think? Donna: No, sir. I'd take what the Lord has given us, I really would. Bob: You'd say, "This path has been the right one for me." Donna: Yes, sir. I think if you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd probably have said no. But I know that God – this is God's plan for my life, and it's okay. Dennis: It's back to what John said earlier – "God is good, and He's right." Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: And … Bob: … blessed be the name of the Lord, right? Dennis: Yeah, even though it's not been easy, you've begun to experience some of the benefit of the pain that you've been through. Can you share some of those benefits, what they would be? Donna: It's a closer relationship with the Lord. Also faith – just knowing that God's going to take care of us, regardless of what we go through. Dennis: Give us an illustration of that. How has He provided for you? Donna: Oh, He's taken care of everything. I mean, we have more than we need. As far as the physical things, God supplies everything. Every time he goes to the hospital, I think, "Oh, here we go again," you know, but the Lord always takes care of everything, and everything always gets paid, we never late on bills. God takes care of everything, and also our spiritual – God takes care of us spiritually, too, and gives us courage and strength and I think one thing that really touches my heart, too, is, you know, when John was in the hospital, you know, he'd just say the name of God, I knew he was praying to the Lord. And, you know, God does – He never leaves us or forsakes us regardless. And so, you know, John might have forgot everything, and John with that hard – I couldn't go through those things at the time with him, but the Lord was with him all the way through it. It doesn't matter how hard it gets, he's there. And so how hard it gets on me or whoever, God is there, and we've just got to trust Him. Dennis: John, do you have anything to add to that? John: Well, the Lord gives us grace not just endure but enjoy, and, you know, he doesn't just say, "Okay, I'll give you enough grace endure this," there are times of endurance, but most time it's enjoyment. And I get to travel, and I really cannot get to all the places people have invited me. It's just incredible. That's how I met one of your staff. I took my first trip California by myself, and on airplane. I told my Donna, "I can do it." Dennis: What's your vision? What is it again? John: I'm blind, legally blind. Dennis: But it's 20 what? John: I don't know the number. I can – one eye I can just make figures. Like, I can tell you're there, but I wouldn't be able to recognize you. Now, with these goggles that I have under here, I can read if I'm up close, and … Dennis: So how do you negotiate steps to get on a plane and to travel to California? John: You know, people are so nice to blind people. If you've got that cane, they get out of your way. [laughter] And I just able to make it through, and I called her, and I was there at the place, and I said, "Donna, nobody speaking English here, where am I?" [laughter] Dennis: You were in California. [laughter] John: She teasing – I was teasing her like I ended up another country or something. But, you know, it's been fun. One time I went and heard a speaker, she went with me, and this man said, "I know some of you out there got skeletons in your closet." Well, I not been taught that yet, and I'm thinking real, and I'm sitting there thinking, "Oh, mercy, if I knew somebody like that, I'd tell on them," you know? And who would do that? You know, and what skeleton is it? And I got home, and I said, "Donna, that man knew people there with skeletons, and he wouldn't tell on them." And she then had to explain to me. So I am learning all those things, but I do have fun, I do, and the Lord has been – just give me joy as well through the trials and I'm not always laughing, but I love hearing you, because you all laugh a lot, and I love be around happy people. Bob: John, when you started losing your eyesight eight months ago … John: Mm-hm, yes. Bob: You had to think, you know, "Lord, haven't I had enough? I mean, couldn't we just keep the eyes? That would sure be helpful." John: Yes. Oh, Bob, that was one of the biggest struggles. I should have been able to ace that one after what I've been through, but, I tell you, I struggled. At first I couldn't believe it happening. I thought, "Surely not." Then I thought, "Oh, this just be two or three week, and the Lord say, 'Okay, I just testing you.'" But it went on and on and on. I almost felt like when Abraham was asked to give his son, and I thought of my sight, oh, I remember, I'd tell God, "Okay, Lord, not my will, thine be done," and then I had to tell Him, "I sorry, Lord, I didn't mean it," like I needed to tell him, but, I mean, I knew I was just saying the words. Because my ministry been built around telling people that we can trust the Lord with anything, and we can go on. He said, "Rejoice in the Lord always," and I'd lost my joy over this. "Oh, God," I said, "I'm so sorry," and it was just like I raised the knife, and I believe Abraham, when God told him offer son, I think probably at the time God knew he really would do it. He stopped him and said, "Okay," and I finally got a point, "Okay, God, if you want the eyes, too, that is okay. I really do mean it." But that really was a big struggle for me. I should have been stronger, but I wasn't. Dennis: John, I was told when you were going to come down here that just from an illness standpoint and battling all that you're battling, you might not have the stamina. You've done remarkable. John: Thank you. Dennis: I mean, you're hanging in there with Bob's tough questions, and … Bob: Any headaches? You feeling okay? John: Yes, I do have headache, and my pain level each day, Bob, is around 5 or 6, between 1 and 10. When it get to 7, I have to medicate it a little bit; 8 and 9 I can live with. If it gets 10, I have to go emergency room. I getting stronger, but I not quite able handle 10. Bob: So where are you today right now? John: I about a 7. Dennis: Wow, wow. Bob: I don't know many people with a 7 … Dennis: Who would be doing radio. Bob: Or smiling or laughing or talking about how good God is. Dennis: And I think what our listeners don't see is, really, the smile on both their faces. Donna: That's what I appreciate about him, is he can be hurting so bad, but he still keeps going, and he complains some, yes, but, no, not like I would. I know why the Lord didn't give me the headaches. Dennis: Not like he could, because of what he's going through. Donna: No. John: I try to be good to her. She's been so good to me, and I love her. Donna: He's very good. John: I want to make her happy. There are two big goals in my life. Number one, make the Lord happy, number two, make my wife happy, and I love to be able to do that and get her things. When I learned I supposed to love her as much as Christ loved church and gave Himself for – I remember when I heard that, "Wow, that a lot of love. I got to work a whole bunch on this." There is nothing world I wouldn't do for her, and she wouldn't ask me to do something wrong or bad, but I think how good the Lord been to me. He's given me so many things. Dennis: I know there is one other thing you love to do, too, though. John: What's that? Dennis: You love to introduce people to the King of the Universe. John: Mm-hm. Dennis: Undoubtedly, there have been those who have heard your story, who don't know Him and who need to. Would you like to take their hand in yours and place it in God's hand, explain to them how they can come into relationship with Jesus Christ and with the Lord God Almighty?" John: Yes, yes, thank you so much. The Bible says the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance, and if people could just stop, and even if they've been through hard times, difficult times, God in His goodness gave us Son, Jesus, for us, that we might be saved and forgiven and be with Him one day. You see, when I die, all my suffering over. I read in Book of Revelation where John said, "in that city no more pain." And, boy, howdy, am I looking forward to that – no more pain. The God that wants to give us that place of no more pain is Jesus Christ. He gave us life, He shed His blood. It took a good God to give His Son. It took a good Savior to give His life so that if a person realizes they're a sinner, puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, He'll save them the moment they turn to Him. And that's a good God, and I just beg people not turning away. I have had atheists saved, Dennis. I had one atheist get saved, and he said to me, he said, "John, I couldn't argue with you. You just kept saying God good, and he said I finally one day I realize why have I turned down such a good God all these years?" And he gave his life to Christ. I would love to know somebody give their life to Christ. He's a good God. Dennis: And I would say to that person right now who is listening, why don't you take the offer that God is making on behalf of you? The good God we've talked about who gave His Son, Jesus Christ. You don't have to get down on your knees. You can do it right where you are, driving in a car, listening on an iPod or computer. But if you want to, it would be a good idea to get down on your knees and just surrender your life to Christ. It is the greatest decision you'll ever make. And, John, I just want to thank you and Donna for telling your story and for allowing us the privilege of – and, Bob, I know you and I have worked together long enough, I know you feel the same – it's just an honor to be in the studio with you. Thank you. John: It's been an honor for us, too. Bob: We want to make sure that those listeners who are interested in establishing a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and we want to invite you to get in touch with us. There's a book we'd love to send you that's call "Pursuing God," that explains what it means to have a right relationship with God through Christ, and this book is available to you at no cost. All you have to do is call 1-800-FLTODAY, and when someone answers the phone just say, I am interested in becoming a Christian, and I'd like a copy of that book, and it will be our privilege to send it out to you, and we trust God will use it to help you begin to establish an ongoing relationship with God through Christ. Again, the title of the book is "Pursuing God," and you can request it when you call 1-800-FLTODAY. You can also request a copy of the CD of our conversation with John and Donna Bishop. We have that in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and when you contact us, we'll let you know how you can receive that CD. You can either order it online at FamilyLife.com, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, and we'll make arrangements to send a copy or to send multiple copies to you, if you'd like. Again, the details of how you can order the CD are found online at FamilyLife.com or simply call 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get the CD sent to you. I don't know how many times, Dennis, I have seen you turn in your Bible to Matthew 7 where Jesus concludes the Sermon on the Mount by talking about two different builders. One builder who built his house on the rock and the other who built his house on the sand, and you have reminded us that when storms come in life, the kinds of storms like John and Donna Bishop have experienced, it's really a test of our foundation on what is our life and our marriage built? And each day we have an opportunity to strengthen the foundation of our marriage as we spend time with God together as a couple. A few months ago, you and your wife Barbara wrote a book called "Moments With You," a daily devotional book for couples to encourage them to spend time praying together, looking at the Scriptures together and talking about their marriage relationship and about their family. And this week we are making that hardback book available to listeners who support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount. We are listener-supported, so your donations are critical, they're vital, to keeping us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country, and when you make a donation either online or by phone this week, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the book, "Moments With You," as a way of saying thank you for your financial support of this ministry. If you're donating online, there will be a keycode box you'll come to on your donation form, and we just need you to type the word "You," y-o-u, in that keycode box, and we'll know to send a copy of the book, "Moments With You" out to you, or call 1-800-FLTODAY. You can make a donation right over the phone and just mention that you'd like a copy of the daily devotional, "Moments With You." Again, we're happy to send it out to you as our way of saying thanks for your financial support and for your partnership with us. Well, tomorrow we're going to meet another very remarkable couple. A couple that has weathered a significant storm in their marriage. We'll introduce you to Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer tomorrow, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Interviewing an Astronaut While in Space - Commander Butch Wilmore

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 28:36

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Life Aboard the Space Station Guest: Barry Wilmore From the series: Life Aboard the Space Station (Day 1 of 1) Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. This could get a little tricky today. I'm not sure— Houston: Hello, this is Houston Comm Tech. Dennis: This is Dennis Rainey with FamilyLife Today. Bob: And Bob Lepine. Houston, can you hear us? Houston: I hear you very low. Bob: Low? Not loud and clear? Houston: Okay, you're coming in a little bit louder. Please standby. Bob: Do I need to say, “Over”? Houston: Okay, this is Comm Tech with a second voice-take on private three; now copy. Bob: Hi, Comm Tech. How's the sound now? Better? Houston: Sounds better. Please stand by for a moment. Bob: Okay. Dennis: Alright. Bob: I'm getting the sense that you don't make jokes with Houston Comm Tech or anybody else in Houston. Dennis: Well, we're speaking to NASA. Bob: They are a little focused on the mission. Dennis: And folks, this is not a joke. That really is— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —Houston NASA Control Center. Bob: And here is the thing. Some of our listeners recognize that, back last fall, we had the opportunity to have a conversation with Captain Barry Wilmore and his wife Deanna just before Barry blasted off from a launch pad in Russia— 1:00 Dennis: A Soyuz rocket. Bob: —going up to take command of the International Space Station, which is where he is today. Dennis: And we also recorded, without Deanna knowing, a 20th Anniversary greeting. Bob: Yes, Barry called us from the space station, back in early December—December 3rd was their anniversary— Dennis: Right. Bob: —their 20th Anniversary. We had him, at the end of the program, sharing anniversary greetings. Dennis: And he sent me an email, after that happened, and said: “Dennis, thank you for allowing me to do that. My daughter actually took a video.” I don't know how they do this, Bob—but they showed the video back to him on the space station. He is in the International Space Station, right now. He had a conversation—and he said, “My daughter showed my wife weeping— Bob: As she listened? Dennis: —“as she listened to my 20th Anniversary greetings.” Bob: And we're trying to work things out now. I think this is going to work, where Houston is setting us up so that we can talk to Captain Wilmore— 2:00 Dennis: —on the International Space Station. Bob: Right. Dennis: He— Barry: FamilyLife Today, hello. Hello, from the International Space Station. You guys out there? Bob: Unbelievable! Is it really you? Barry: Hi, Bob! Hi, Dennis! Bob: And how many bars do you have on your phone right now? [Laughter] Barry: Hopefully, enough! Dennis: Amazing! Bob: It is amazing that we're talking to you! Barry: Well, thank you all for your program—it's fabulous. Dennis: Would you mind looking out your window and telling us what you're seeing right now? Barry: If I'm not mistaken—I didn't look at a map—but if I'm not mistaken, based on what I've seen, I believe that's Australia going by below me. Bob: Wow! [Laughter] Dennis: Well, Butch, you're looking at the earth as few men or women ever get a chance to see it. What's a unique perspective you've had, just from outer space? This is your second time to be in orbit. Any thoughts come to your mind as you glance at the globe of six billion people? Barry: Very interesting question. You know, when I was here before—when I flew five years ago— 3:00 —it was a shuttle mission. Shuttle missions were fast and furious—it was 11 days. I think the most time I ever had to stick my nose in the window was about 20 minutes. That really wasn't long enough—it was wonderful—don't get me wrong. But now, to have the opportunity to really, no kidding, poke my nose in the window for very extended periods of time, it's truly amazing and truly breathtaking. It makes me in awe of my Lord and Savior and Creator—I mean—beyond words. I can't explain—you can't explain the view. You can't—I mean, you can see pictures / you can see video—and they do a little bit to show what the beauty of the earth and the globe is from here; but to see it with your own eyes and realize that it's controlled by a sovereign God—like I said, it's beyond words. Bob: Tell us what a day is like onboard the Space Station. First of all, what time zone are you in? Barry: Yes, we work under GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, which is the same time as London. Before I answer that question— 4:00 —let me say that / I want it to be clear—it is an amazing place, and it's an amazing view. It is an amazing thing to be here. I wake up every morning, and I float down the tube. I'm like: “Lord, I can't believe I'm here. This is just amazing! It's thrilling.” But I did not need to come here to know my Lord / to know my God. I mean—all that I could ever know / could ever want to know—I gleaned from the Words of Scripture. So, I didn't have to come here to find my Lord. He's in the Word—that's where He resides—and that's where He speaks to us from. Okay, again, your question? Bob: Just tell me about what a day is like for you onboard the space station. Barry: Well, the days are pretty busy as you would imagine. I'm kind of a morning guy—I get up early. I get up around 4:30 or 5:00. We're not required, but it's very highly encouraged that we work out a great deal. We get about two and half hours a day scheduled to work out—we have resistance exercise. So, that's how I start my day. 5:00 The resistance exercise machine is actually positioned right below the main window, which is called the cupola in the Space Station. I can lay there and do my work-out and see the beauty of the world go by. For instance, just this very morning, I'm working out—I look up, and there goes the nation of Israel by the window. It's the first time since I've been here that we've flown directly over the top. It was wonderful to look down and see the—from that vantage point—to see the places where our Lord walked when He was on earth—so, it was great. Anyway, that's the way my day starts. Then, of course, the rest of it begins. It's a busy, busy place with a lot of various things going on—science, working payloads, plant seedling growth or crystal growth, working with the fish—we had fish up here. Some of them went back when the last Soyuz went back—and experiments with those. And the list goes on, and on, and on—combustion science. I mean—and that's just one day. 6:00 Then, there'll be things that will break; and we'll have to fix—that's ongoing. Of course, we have to do a spacewalk. We go out and do some things outside—that was amazing as well. So, the variety, and the opportunity, and the things that we do is varied—it's really neat. Bob: I'm just curious if they still have Tang® onboard the Space Station—you know—because I grew up—it was all about astronauts and Tang. Do you even know what I'm talking about? Barry: I know exactly what you're talking about—I sure do! I don't know that it's made by people that make Tang, but it's like that—it's a powdered drink. That's all we have, basically. It's in little pouches, and we put water in it—it fires it up. It's quite tasty—I enjoy it in various flavors. Bob: So, breakfast, or lunch, or dinner—what are your meals like onboard the Space Station? Barry: The food is prepared a little differently—so, it does give it a different taste—and we're big on condiments here. [Laughter] Condiments are huge! So, you can make anything taste decent with the right amount of condiments. [Laughter] But you know, breakfast— 7:00 —eggs, sausage links, and patties. I mean, we've got those that we rehydrate. We've got soups. We don't have salads; but we have soups, and vegetables, and meats—a varied variety of those. It's really good—I enjoy the food. Then, again, I'm not a good guy to ask if food is good because, when I was on deployment on the aircraft carrier, I even liked ship food. There are not many people that like ship food. [Laughter] Dennis: Other than your family, what do you miss most while being in outer space? Barry: There is only one thing that I miss. I'll tell you what it is and I'll tell you why I don't miss anything else. It is because it is such a unique place. To pine for something that I can't have—like a hamburger, or French fries, or something like that—there's no reason for that because everything else just overwhelms that. The one thing that I don't have here—that I not only want but I need—is church. The Lord gave us His church. He gave it to us because He knew that we needed it. 8:00 We need it for our encouragement, for learning / obviously, for worship—admonishment at times. That's the one thing that I can't have here. I try to supplement that. I have messages from my home church that are sent to me weekly—and I listen to those—but it's not the same as being there and the fellowship with the body. That's the one thing that I do miss. Bob: And you'd include FamilyLife Today in there as well; right? Barry: Absolutely! [Laughter] Absolutely. Dennis: Butch, I emailed you this morning. I just wonder, “How long does it take for my email to get to you?” Barry: Now, that's varied as well. Sometimes, it gets here immediately. At other times, it takes days. It gets stuck in a hopper somewhere, and it won't get here for a couple of days. So, it's varied. Mostly, it's pretty good though. Bob: What can you tell us about the rest of the crew—the guys you are working with? Barry: Well, my Russian crewmates—that I launched in the Soyuz with—will be here the whole six months together. Alexander Samokutyaev is a military pilot from the Russian Air Force, and Elena Serova is a female engineer that was selected as a cosmonaut several years ago. 9:00 It's a great group of people to be around. We've trained a lot on earth together; and being with them here is fabulous as well. Dennis: Do you speak Russian? Barry: You know, I jokingly say, “I speak two languages fluently, and one I speak a little bit.” I speak English, and I speak Tennessee. Then, I know a little bit of Russian. [Laughter] Bob: But in that kind of environment—where you are living together / you're working together—I mean, you don't have anybody else to talk to other than your comrades onboard the Space Station and your comm link back to Houston. Relationships—maintaining healthy relationships—that's got to be a part of the mission; isn't it? Barry: It is. One of the things that is good—again, that NASA does well is / like you mentioned—email. I've got friends and relationships that I've built over the years. Being able to maintain contact with those individuals via email is really—it's wonderful. 10:00 There is also—you know, I was able to send out and have 300 or so people on a friends and family website. They put some stuff on the website—like the spacewalk I did, and pictures, and whatnot. I've typed up a few things that go to that website to maintain contact with them. The people who are able to access that website can also send me messages. So, that's very helpful. Dennis: One of the things that I did a little a research on is the massive number of people that form the NASA team—that, ultimately, slings you guys into outer space and cares for your well-being while you are out there. I'd just be fascinated to hear your thoughts about teamwork and lessons you've learned that are, literally, out of this world. Barry: Oh, you are right. You can't—we can't have success in just about anything in life without teamwork. That's certainly the case here on the International Space Station. Yes, we're the bodies that get to climb into the rocket, and they launch, and come up here and do these wonderful things in a wonderful environment— 11:00 —it's true—but these experiments, these payloads, these procedures that I run daily—they don't exist without the team. The things that we're doing / the things that we're accomplishing up here do not happen without the team. I'm just, honestly, a small part of the team when it comes to a lot of the things that I do. There's a mountain of people that put their passion and their life's work into much of the things that I work on here. You know, some of the experiments—there are individuals that—this is literally—literally—some of them, it's their life's work—things that they've been working on for decades—and here it is in my hands. I take that seriously, and it's a great amount of responsibility. You know, I appreciate them for what they do—the effort they've put into jobs to make some things easier for me. I'm sure they appreciate the things that we do as well. It doesn't exist without that cohesiveness, like you mentioned. Dennis: You need to know we have a ton of young folks who listen, dreaming dreams/aspirations for their own lives. 12:00 Have you got something you'd like to say to them about what they need to be cultivating as they grow up and, hopefully, put some feet to their dreams? Barry: One thing that comes to mind is—for me, anyway—the parable of the talents. The lord gave some more than others, but there was a certain expectation for whatever they were given. I think that, as we live our life, that we need to realize that wherever we are / whatever we are doing, we exist for His glory—that's why we're here. With whatever He's given us, we need to maximize and do the best we can with that for His glory. Do what you are passionate about / do what you love—and remember that you do everything you do for His glory. Bob: Sometimes, things don't go according to plan. I know you all were expecting a supply delivery—that there was a little bit of a hitch. Can you tell us what happened and how you've had to adjust, as a result? 13:00 Barry: Yes, there was a mishap with a launch vehicle that was bringing cargo to us. For me, personally, there have been minor adjustments. The reason—and we've talked about it just a second ago—is the team. The team on the ground that works all of those issues have worked feverishly to make sure that we have everything that we need. They planned ahead so we'd have a stockpile of things that we wouldn't be put in a bind on anything. There is only one or two items that were even just slightly short on because the team has been working and doing their jobs. And the team—as soon as it happened—they were at work, getting ready and planning and seeing how we go forward from there. Bob: Were you anxious at all when you got the news that the supply vehicle had been damaged? Barry: We were actually watching it, live, as it launched; and we saw what had happened. You know, our first thoughts, like anything—it's a clear range, and there is nobody there—but you still—there is always a chance that something will go astray. Your first thought is, “Could anybody have been injured?” 14:00 Of course, thankfully, that wasn't the case. When there is no individual harm that takes place—cargo and stuff—you can replace all of that. In that light, it's minor. Dennis: Butch, I want you to give our listeners an idea of how big this thing is that you are screaming around the earth in. Barry: Total size—if you think about two football fields—it's about as long as a football field and about as wide as a football field. The structure inside—they say that the size and the volume is like five buses that you would connect together. We have various modules, and I can tell you it is wide open space—it's not like the capsule I launched in. The Soyuz capsule is very small. The shuttle, with respect to the Space Station—the living space in that was fairly small—but this is huge / it's wide open. And you're right—flying around—even inside here, weightlessly, is such a kick. It is really, really amazing. As a matter of fact, I just flipped around and am standing on the ceiling now— 15:00 —or what we call the ceiling because there really is no up and down. [Laughter] Now, I'm standing on the bulkhead—on the wall. [Laughter] Dennis: There are some kids, right now, going, “Oh, could I go up there and join him for that?!” So, have you ever spilled anything up there? Barry: It's great to watch water droplets and whatnot—so, yes, I spill it often, intentionally, because it's neat to watch. [Laughter] Bob: I would like to be weightless just for a day. Dennis: I could use some weightlessness. Captain Wilmore, you have done a number of deployments in your service for the Navy. You have any coaching for dads who travel a lot? Maybe, they don't go to outer space, but they're gone three or four days a week or a good number of days throughout the month—any coaching for them about caring for their wives and their children in the midst of that? Barry: I think the thing that I would say from my standpoint—and what I've tried to do myself—is always think about biblical principles—you know, raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and teach them God's Word. 16:00 That's what I do with my daughters, and that's what my wife and I do together. I think a big part of that is preparing, especially when the children are younger—I've got a seven-year-old and a ten-year-old. We did a great deal of preparation for this separation time—discussing it and talking about it. My number one message to my daughters, and I even say it when I call them now, is: “Help Mommy.” We also—my wife homeschools—so, the follow-up slogan to that is: “Help your teacher. The principal may be out of town for a while, but he's coming back!” [Laughter] Dennis: So, that's a setup. Do you want to say anything to those girls of yours?—any words from Daddy to a daughter? I know you get to talk to them too, but here is a chance to both brag on them and exhort them with a few hundred thousand, if not a million, listeners across the country. 17:00 Barry: Yes, both of my daughters are taking piano lessons—my youngest just started. I want you to know, girls—Darren and Logan—Daddy loves—loves—to hear you play the piano. I thank you when you practice, and I thank you when you play over the phone so I can even hear you from here—so, thank you for that. I want you to know that Daddy is very proud of both of you. And I, also, want you to know that the slogan is the same in this message too: “Help Mommy / help your teacher.” [Laughter] Dennis: Well said by a dad. Way to go! Is there a question you'd like to be asked that's a favorite question for you to answer? Barry: I think, you know, it's less about me / more about my Lord is where I would try to orient any question: “What drives you?”—maybe. What really, truly drives me is my desire to live according to what the Lord has laid out in His Word that we should do— 18:00 —and to glorify Him—and that's the main driver. So, that would be the question: “What drives you?” and that's the answer. Bob: You have time in your schedule to include spiritual disciplines and to keep your spiritual self in shape; right? Barry: Absolutely; yes, sir. Bob: So, what are you doing in space—I know you have an opportunity to read your Bible, and you mentioned reviewing messages from church. Anything else that you are doing to just stay connected to Christ? Barry: The Lord gave me something a few years ago that I have been continuing. It wasn't something I set out to do—it just kind of happened—and that is that I started sending out a devotion to just a couple of people daily / every single day. Over the years, the Lord grew that distribution list. I don't know how many people are on it now—I haven't counted—it's probably 70 or so different emails that I send out. So, I do that every day—preparing the devotion to send out to those 70 individuals. 19:00 Also, I have it posted on my friends and family website. So that, right there, is something that the Lord has given me to keep me in His Word, and keep me studying, and keep me growing—and for that, I am grateful. Dennis: I just want our listeners to think about where Butch is right now because he's looking at how this verse is really spelled out—Psalm 8: O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth. You have set Your glory above the heavens! When I look at the heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place; what is man, that You are mindful of him and the son of man that You care for him? Yet, you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor! You have given him dominion over the works of Your hands and have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen, 20:00 and the beasts of the fields, and the birds of the heaven, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the sea. O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!” Barry: I can tell you from this vantage point, “majestic,” indeed—praise Him. Bob: Butch, let me ask you one more question. How often does the sun come up during the day, and how often does it go down during the day for you? Barry: Oh, there is another blessing! The sunrises and sunsets here are just amazing. The Space Station—the whole station for about six to ten seconds turns completely orange as it goes through—as the light passes through the atmosphere. It kind of acts as a prism and separates the colors. I get 16 of those a day—fantastic! Bob: So, is it almost bedtime for you now? Barry: It actually—it is. I'm going to grab me a quick little bite to eat; and then, I'm going to hit the rack. [Laughter] Dennis: Well, Butch, thanks for joining us on FamilyLife Today. Just want you to know it's no excuse that you can't listen to the broadcast up there. You should have figured that out in advance, but we'll forgive you for that; okay? 21:00 Barry: I appreciate that—[Laughter]—next time—next time! Bob: Well, we're thrilled to be able to talk to you. Folks are praying for you, and we're going to keep praying for you. Excited to hear that the mission is going well. Barry: Thank you very much, and I appreciate that as well. Praise Him. Thank you. Bob: You know, it occurs to me—that when Butch lands—and I just checked with Keith—it's not a splashdown. It's not a landing like an airplane. It's an earthbound landing and a recovery. What did you call it—the Soyuz—what? Keith: They land from a Soyuz recovery capsule, and they land on the ground in the steppes of Russia. Bob: Wow! Keith knows these things. [Laughter] When that happens—after he and his wife have had a chance to kind of get acquainted with one another again—we need to get them to one of our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways for a little refresher. Dennis: Yes. Bob: When you've been gone for several months, it's good to have a little getaway weekend together and to hear, again, God's design for the marriage relationship. 22:00 Of course, you and I are going to be speaking at Weekend to Remember getaways next weekend. You're going to be in Hershey, Pennsylvania. I'm going to be in Colorado Springs. Dennis: Yes. Bob: We've got another four or five getaways happening next weekend—Valentine's weekend. Then, throughout the spring, there are Weekend to Remember marriage getaways happening in cities, all across the country. If you and your spouse have never been, you don't have to go to outer space in order to qualify to attend a Weekend to Remember. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and sign up to attend an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—get more information about when one of these getaways is coming to a city near where you live. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and mention that you'd like to attend a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway. We can answer any questions you have—let you know about dates and locations. But we hope you'll make plans to invest in your marriage, whether you've been apart for a while or whether you see each other, day-in and day-out. This kind of getaway is great preventative maintenance for every marriage relationship. 23:00 Again, learn more at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, “GO DEEPER.” You'll find information about the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway there. Or call 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY,”—ask about the Weekend to Remember. One final note before we're done. Next week is National Marriage Week. We're going to be celebrating all week long with some special things going on social media. If you are not a friend of ours on our Facebook® page or if you don't follow us on Twitter®, let me encourage you to sign up so that you can be in the loop for all that we've got going on next week—some fun stuff, some helpful things, and some ideas for Valentine's Day. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and scroll all the way down to the very bottom of the page. You'll see the links there for Facebook and Twitter—you can sign up that way. Or, if you're in the know, just go to Facebook and Twitter—follow us @FamilyLifeToday—that's our Twitter handle. 24:00 Or you can click, “Like,” on our FamilyLife Today Facebook page and join us that way. And with that, we've got to wrap things up. Thanks for being with us today. Hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to begin a weeklong look at the Song of Solomon and what that book has to say about marriage, and romance, and dating, and intimacy. We're going to hear messages from Pastor Matt Chandler next week. So, hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with help today from Tom Thompson. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 3) - Juli Slattery

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 27:18

25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 1) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 2) - Juli Slattery25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy (Part 3) - Juli SlatteryFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Spiritual Component of Sexuality Guest: Juli Slattery From the series: 25 Questions You Are Afraid to Ask (Day 3 of 3) Bob: Dr. Juli Slattery had been married ten years before there was a breakthrough that occurred in her marriage in the area of marital intimacy. Juli: We had many years of boredom. You know, one of the first steps I took was I dedicated three months: “Lord, I'm going to pray about this area of my life. I'm going to learn to enjoy it, and I'm going to learn to pursue it.” I got serious about saying: “God, You're not okay with where we are. I'm not okay with where we are. I'm going to devote myself to helping change that.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, October 26th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. Could it be that a season of prayer and study could actually bring about a breakthrough in your marital intimacy? We'll talk more about that with Dr. Juli Slattery today. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I hope our listeners have been hanging with us here this week as we've been talking about a sensitive subject. I have to tell you—just in the conversation, there is such rightness in talking in a healthy— Dennis: Oh and it's healthy! Bob: —biblical way— Dennis: Yes! Bob: —about what God created. Dennis: If there's a radio program on—on all of radio—it ought to be a Christian radio program talking about sex from a biblical perspective. Dr. Juli Slattery has been with us this week. I just want to tell you: “You're doing a great job. Your book is excellent—25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy.” Juli—welcome back to the broadcast, first of all. I just want to ask you—you've been married since 1994 / you have three sons: “What is the most important lesson you personally have learned about love, sex, and intimacy?” Juli: That this is spiritual terrain. 2:00 It's not just a matter of good parenting or having a happy marriage—that sexuality represents a very intense spiritual battle. When I learned that, it was a total game changer in how I approached this in my marriage and parenting. Dennis: So, in essence, you're saying: “Who are you listening to? Juli: Yes; yes. Dennis: “Are you listening to the Bible and God's perspective of sex?”—because that's really the only place you're going to find it is in the Bible—or “Are you listening, watching, and feeding from what the world is?” Bob: Yes; when you're standing at the supermarket checkout line and Cosmo is there—what they're advertising on the front cover is not, “Here's how to think biblically about sexuality”; right? Juli: No; no. Bob: They're kind of compartmentalizing it to a purely biological activity that you can disassociate from every other aspect of your life. When people think that way, what happens to their sexuality? Juli: Well, and I think a lot of Christians do think that way—they think that sexuality is compartmentalized. 3:00 What happens is that you never realize that Jesus needs to be Lord of that area of your life too. In 1 Corinthians 6, it talks about the sexual, and spiritual, and the relational all being intertwined—that you can't make a sexual choice that isn't also spiritual. When you start to understand that—that this is a major battle; and if I'm not careful with even the little choices I make, I can be contributing to evil I hate. Boy, when you get that, it changes—for example, we all hate sex trafficking and sexual exploitation. We hate it / we wish it would go away. But we don't realize that our choices—for example, to look at pornography feeds into sexual exploitation and trafficking—that we have a part to play in that. Even just a cavalier attitude about casual sex—and you can hook up with whomever you want—you're contributing to the enemy's design on tarnishing sexuality. 4:00 That's really convicting. It changes the way we pray, and it changes the way we act. Dennis: I want to take a step back and just address a couple, who are listening to our broadcast, where sex has become boring. The romance is kind of out the window—it's a routine, it's a duty, it has lost its zest, and—well, whether a man or a woman, it can just be something you just “have to do” or neglect to do. Bob: Yes. Let's say somebody comes to you and says, “Okay; here's our deal…”—a couple in their 30s / they've got three kids. Both of them have full-time jobs. They would say: “You know, I guess for the last year, maybe once or twice a month we'll have sex and it is okay; but it kind of feels more like a chore. I'm honestly—I'm really okay if we just kind of let it phase out of our marriage.” There are people thinking like that; aren't there? Juli: There are; absolutely! 5:00 I would say: “First of all, you're normal. Those are normal seasons of marriage. Second of all, you might be okay with letting it fade away; but God's not okay with letting it fade away. We know that because, in 1 Corinthians 7, one of the few very specific pieces of marriage advice that we get from the Bible is: “Don't neglect sexual intimacy except for mutual consent for a time of prayer,”—that's the only reason why you should be avoiding this. Now, of course, there are health issues and things like that you may need to work through; but the spirit of it is: “This is very important for you to pursue,”—that would be the challenge of: “God would say you need to keep working on this,”—but it is normal to struggle. Bob: Even if the husband and wife kind of mutually say, “We're okay with it sliding,” you're saying: “You may be, but God's not. You need to make this a more active discipline in your marriage”? Juli: Absolutely! And the biology actually supports that. 6:00 The biology shows—now that we understand more about the brain and sexual response—that if a couple is sexually intimate on a regular basis, the hormones that are produced in the brain bond that husband and wife together—actually, in some ways / in a very healthy way—make you addicted to your spouse, where you can't wait to see them / you can't wait to be with them. You get a hormone in your body called oxytocin that makes them more pleasurable to you / like less offensive. It's the same hormone that a new mom gets when they have a baby, because you need to love that baby no matter what happens. God has created sexual intimacy, when it occurs regularly in the confines of a relationship, to be glue that continually draws a couple together. To neglect that is, not only something that God says is a bad idea, it's what scientific research is saying is a bad idea. Dennis: In your book, you talk about a couple that almost sounds like what Bob was describing—been married ten years, had three kids, and were going through a time of sexual struggle/boredom. 7:00 That couple was you and your husband. Juli: Yes. [Laughter] We had many years of boredom. One of the first steps I took was—I dedicated three months: “Lord, I'm going to pray about this area of my life. I'm going to learn to enjoy it, and I'm going to learn to pursue it,”— which was just something that God gave me and challenged me with. I'm a very goal-oriented person; and when I set my mind on doing something, I put energy into it—I save time for it; I think about it; I pray about it. That's what happened in this area of our marriage—is I got serious about saying: “God, You're not okay with where we are / I'm not okay with where we are. I'm going to devote myself to helping change that.” Dennis: Did you tell Mike you were going to do that? Juli: No; I didn't want the accountability! [Laughter] I told him after! [Laughter] Bob: So what happened in that three-month period? Juli: A lot happened! I think I could see definite changes— 8:00 Dennis: Is Mike where we can call him right now? [Laughter] Juli: He probably is. Dennis: Let's get him on the phone and find out what happened. Juli: Really? Dennis: Really! Juli: [Laughter] You are serious? Dennis: I'm serious. Juli: Okay. Bob: You good with this? Juli: Yes; sure! Bob: Alright. Juli: I don't know if he will be, but— Bob: Well— Juli: —we'll see. Bob: —we'll find out. Juli: Ask him honestly. Bob: I think our engineer, Keith, is punching up the phone number right now. [Phone ringing] Mike: Hi; this is Mike speaking. Bob: Mike Slattery. Mike: Yes. Bob: It's Bob Lepine from FamilyLife Today. I'm here with Dennis Rainey and your wife, whom I—I heard her call you “Swoo”? Is that the—is that— Mike: [Laughter] Bob: What does that stand for?—Swoo? Mike: I don't—there's not a real actual acronym or what not—it's just a song we made up, way back when, “Swee Swoo” and “Swoo” just kind of stuck after that. Bob: It just stuck—well that's nice! Dennis: So Mike, I just turned to Juli and I said, “So, you prayed about your intimacy with your husband for three months” and I asked her / I said, “So did you tell Mike?” 9:00 She said “No; I didn't want the accountability!” [Laughter] We were starting to ask her; and we thought, “No; let's just call Mike!” What did you think about what was happening, Mike? Mike: I think anytime you go back to God for anything—be it a budget, be it parenting, be it physical intimacy—you're never going to go wrong. As Christians, that's what we subscribe to—God has all the answers, and any area of our life is open to prayer with that. I think the world kind of guides us away from that, but I think that's the best thing to do. Juli has been a great example of doing that—she lives what she says. If she doesn't, she prays about it. We're very open with that communication, which has been great. Bob: When did it dawn on you this was an area that your wife was beginning to pray about this whole issue of intimacy in marriage and that God was at work? Juli: Well, if I could—maybe just tell a story to kind of prompt the memory of what was happening. This was probably a good ten years ago, before I started off thinking of Intimacy. I would have my quiet time in the evening. 10:00 As any young mom knows, the evening is your time—where you put the kids to bed; you don't want to be bothered; you have your tea; and your Bible, or books, or whatever. I would have my quiet time and just be asking God, “Would You show me how to draw closer to You and how to love You?” During that period of time—of beginning to pray about this—the Lord would begin speaking to me, ”If you want to love Me, then go up and just initiate with your husband.” There were a few times—and it's become more frequent now— Mike: Exactly; yes. Juli: —where I'll be doing my quiet time, whether it's in the morning or the evening—and that's the word that the Lord will give me—is: “This is a way that you honor Me.” Mike: Yes; basically, I remember when there was one time where Jules was—in her routine, typically on Saturday—Juli would get up, she'll go down and do her quiet time—kind of her normal routine, Monday through Sunday—she'll do that. 11:00 If it's like on a weekend, when I'm not going to work or jumping to the gym, I'll kind of stay in bed and kind of let her do her—that's her time with God. I never want to encroach on that. There was a time, where I was praying about it—and I just doing my quiet time, and she was doing her quiet time. We were both praying about the same thing. Then Juli came up, and we would kind of share that together—like: “Were you praying about this?” and “I was praying about this,” “I think God heard us.” [Laughter] So that was really—that was very special. Bob: You're a good sport, Mike. Thanks for letting us interrupt your day and just authenticate what your wife has been sharing with us here. Mike: I appreciate it. Thank you, guys, for getting the message out, because Juli's been doing this for the last several years. When she was at Focus—and initially, when God was pulling her away, we prayed about it. I said, “As long as you're sure this is what God wants you to do, I'm 100 percent behind you.” It's been a great journey. The main thing is we're all used by God. Dennis: I appreciate your courage too. The easiest thing to do is nothing. Mike: Sure. Dennis: The easiest thing to say, if you're a very private person, is nothing. Mike: Yes. 12:00 Dennis: And in the process, there's a lot of folks, again, who have received some help and hope as a result of you guys being honest about your own marriage. Pray God's favor on you in your pursuit in your vocation but also in your family. Mike: Thank you so much. I truly appreciate it. God bless. God bless all of you. Bob: You want to say, “Goodbye,” to your husband? Juli: I love you Hon. Thanks for being a good sport. Mike: Okay; I love you Baby-doll. Look forward to seeing you tonight baby; alright. Juli: Me too; bye. Mike: Bye-bye. Dennis: [Laughter] I wish they could see Juli's grin, Bob. Bob: I think they could hear Juli's grin—[Laughter] —as she said, “Goodbye,” to her husband. You've been married how many years? Juli: Twenty-two years. Bob: And you're looking forward to seeing him tonight? Juli: Yes; of course, I am—he's my best friend. Bob: If your marriage had been on the trajectory / if it had remained on the trajectory that it was on—if you hadn't, ten/twelve years ago, had this kind of three months before the Lord, where do you think you'd be today? 13:00 Juli: Not where we are; because I had all the education I needed, as a clinical psychologist. I worked with couples on marriage issues and sexual issues but never really understood the power of inviting God, and the power of bringing sexuality under His Lordship, because I'd never heard that before. When you invite God into any sphere of your life, He's going to confront you on things that are difficult—yes—but He's / but He's going to provide hope and healing in ways that you didn't know you needed. Dennis: You're a clinical psychologist. I'd like you to give your best counsel to men about understanding their wives. Juli: I guess the analogy that I like to use regarding sexuality—and this is because I'm a mom of three boys—is I like to talk about Legos®. If you, on your honeymoon—you think you're going to open up this great gift that's going to be complete—you'll be really disappointed. And that's the truth with Legos. 14:00 If you go to the store and buy a package of Legos, and you see this beautiful thing on the outside—this cool Bat mobile or whatever it is—and you open it up, you're disappointed. I would encourage men that God has given you a gift of building something together that, at first, isn't going to make any sense; but that's part of the design—that He's challenging you to learn to love, and to build, and to sacrifice. Your wife may take years/ I'm going to say your wife may take decades to really understand sexually, and emotionally, and spiritually. She does not understand herself. But God's challenge to you is to: “Continue to build; continue to pursue; ask God for wisdom—have a sensitive heart.” This is the other thing I think we pass right over—in Ephesians, Chapter 5, Paul writes specifically to husbands. He says to “…love your wives as Christ loved the church and laid Himself down for her.” Then it says that “He washed the church with the word, presenting her as a spotless bride.” 15:00 Part of what Paul is saying to you, as a husband, is: “Are you protecting the purity of your wife so that you can present her as a spotless bride?” Don't bring anything into your mind or your bedroom that would defile your wife. Make that a safe place, emotionally and spiritually. Dennis: I would add one other thing too: “If you think you're going to trade in this box of Legos for a better box, that's all put together perfectly—it's a lie. Juli: Yes. Dennis: “It's a lie. The box God has given you is the one you need to keep your covenant with / keep building into and stay the course. Don't quit.” Okay; Juli—now, I want you to take the women underneath your arm and just counsel them. What would you say to them about their relationship with their husband? Juli: Well, I would say, “Don't underestimate the power of sexuality,”— 16:00 —that so often we think of power as a bad thing—but I see that God has given a wife, naturally, tremendous power in marriage around the issue of her body and sexuality. Because we're not always open and honest about that being a powerful tool that God has given, we don't use that power well—we either neglect it; we don't prioritize it; or we use it in a manipulative way. If you can say: “Oh man, God has given me a place of power in my husband's life that I'm jealous of—I don't want any other woman on the planet to have this power with my husband. I want to learn to use it effectively to capture his heart / to share something with him that no one else gets to share with him.” That's going to take work to pursue; and I've shared in my own testimony how it has taken work, but it is so worth it. Bob: I want to ask you about that power—because we've seen husbands and wives get pulled outside of the marriage covenant; because another woman uses that power with a married man, or because a married man pursues a married woman. 17:00 When a couple takes sexuality outside of their marriage—when they give up on what ought to be going on at home or when they just supplement it with an affair—what's really going on in the heart of the husband or the heart of the wife in pursuing that infidelity in the first place? Juli: There can be lots of things going on, but I think a profound thing is—they've never really understood, in the concept of covenant, that sexuality is all about covenant. The reason that God says it's reserved for marriage is because there's this lifelong promise or covenant. If you take it outside of that, you're destroying something so spiritual and special, that recovering from that is tremendously difficult. First, there's that discounting of the covenant—but also, pretty much with every situation where there's an emotional or sexual affair, you can kind of do the forensic on that relationship. The couple can begin to tell you, “This is when we started drifting apart,”— 18:00 —whether it was when she got busy with the kids, or she put on weight and didn't feel sexy anymore, or he got so pulled into his career that he stopped spending time with her. I know you two work on marriages so much that you've seen this—that affairs don't begin with that relationship of being sexually unfaithful—they begin when you get seeds planted in your mind that: “Someone else can love me more than this person loves me.” Dennis: It's an emotional connection— Juli: Absolutely. Dennis: —not a physical connection—but it grows into that. Juli: Yes. Dennis: I think what / what our listeners need to know that: “If your relationship is teetering toward an emotional affair, the advice is: ‘You've got to extinguish the chemical reaction now. You've got to take the number out of your cell phone; you've got to completely sever the relationship—if it means changing places of work because of the temptation— 19:00 —you have to protect your marriage, and your family, your children, your legacy.' This is really, really important what we're talking about here.” I so agree with your advice: “Protect your covenant at all costs.” Bob: I think you made a good point. You might just pull back and analyze, “What is it that I'm most attracted to here?” because that will help you identify what's been lacking—some longing that's an unmet longing—that was designed for marriage that may not be happening in marriage. Then sit down with your husband or your wife and say: “You know, there's an area in my heart that I've just felt lonely in,” or “…I felt lacking,” “….an area where we can—can we work on this together, and can we try to grow this together?”—rather than saying: “I'm just going to go find it somewhere else.” It is poisoned fruit outside the marriage covenant. 20:00 The other thing I encourage you to do is—just honestly ask the Lord—and even to share with a mentor and ask, “What lies am I believing?” because the enemy works in lies. Dennis: That's right. Juli: He will convince you that you're going to be happier with someone else, or some other guy is going to understand you more than your husband does, or that God can't rekindle and restore your relationship with your husband or your wife. You need to confront those lies with truth. Dennis: You're not going to trade in this box of Legos and find another box that's perfectly put together, exactly the way you want it. You're still going to be dealing with your selfishness. Juli: Yes. Dennis: You're going to be dealing with another person's selfishness; and then, you're going to be dealing with the debris of a broken marriage / a broken family. That's not a recipe for success in marriage, family, or in life. Juli, I just want you to know I'm really proud of you for stepping out in faith and beginning this new ministry called Authentic Intimacy. 21:00 I know that you didn't have to go try this / go do this, but I think it's a much needed area in our country. I hope that our listeners will get a copy of your book. I hope they'll use it to talk with their sons/their daughters—whether they are still yet at home or as adult children—about this important area and dimension of the marriage relationship. Bob: Yes; some of them are going to want to subscribe to your podcast, and they can do that. In fact, we've got instructions on our website if you want to find out more about what Juli is doing with the Java with Juli podcast—you can download it. There's information available when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Dennis: And in case you didn't notice, it's the Java with Juli with a little mocha, a little chocolate, and a little whipped cream. [Laughter] There's some spice— Bob: Hazelnut—there's some hazelnut in there. Dennis: We'll stop right there! [Laughter] Bob: Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and you can download the podcast. You can also order a copy of Juli's book, 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex and Intimacy. 22:00 Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you can order the book when you call us, toll free, at 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. We mentioned this last week—we've had a lot of our listeners who have started using the ten family devotions that we've put together that are available on the FamilyLife app on your smartphone or your device. These devotions are designed to help us, as families, keep our hearts and minds focused on Christ in the middle of what can be unstable times. You can find the devotions if you have the FamilyLife app on your smartphone or device—just pull it up and click where it says, “Help and Hope.” Or you can download the devotions as a pdf document from our website at FamilyLifeToday.com. We hope you'll do that; and you'll find the devotions helpful as you shepherd your family and seek to keep your eyes fixed on the One, who is the author and finisher of our faith. 23:00 We've got a couple of couples who are celebrating anniversaries today. First, Ralph and Jean Carlson, who live in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, and who listen to KTIS—42 years of marriage today. Then in Columbus, Ohio, Brian and Michele Livingston—they listen to WRFD, and they've been married six years today. We've been celebrating anniversaries all this year because 2016 is FamilyLife's 40th anniversary. We thought the best way to celebrate 40 years of ministry is to just reflect on all of the marriages that are still together, in part, because of how God has used FamilyLife in the lives of so many couples who listen to this program. If you can make a donation today, we'd love to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a banner that Barbara Rainey has created for the home that declares your home as an embassy of the kingdom of heaven. 24:00 It's our thank-you gift when you make a donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can request the banner when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate or when you mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, our friend, Steven Curtis Chapman's, going to stop by. We're going to visit with him. Hope you can be here for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-Jones

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 25:03

Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. God Breaking into History Guest: Sally Lloyd-Jones From the series: Telling Stories to Children (Day 1 of 2) Bob: One of the challenges that families often face during the Christmas season is how to or even whether to blend in the holiday traditions with the biblical story of Christmas. Here's some thoughts from author, Sally Lloyd-Jones. Sally: You know, I became a Christian when I was four. I am sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little. I suppose the excitement of: “He's coming!” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas. It's exciting; because your rescuer is coming, which is much more exciting than “Santa's coming with presents.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, December 7th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Sally Lloyd-Jones joins us today to talk about how we keep Jesus at the center of the Christmas season. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Dennis: How's your English accent, Bob? [Laughter] Bob: Terrible. [Laughter] Dennis: You have a great impersonation of Jerry Falwell. Bob: Yes; but— Dennis: Can I hear your Sally Lloyd-Jones? [Laughter] Bob: I'm not that clever! [Laughter] No; mine would be [speaking with English accent]: Look at her, a person of the gutters, Condemned by every syllable she utters. By right, she ought to be taken out and hung For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue! Sally: That's brilliant. Bob: Thank you. Barbara: I know that one. Bob: Do you? Barbara: I watched that over, and over, and over. Bob: That's Henry Higgins. Don't you know Henry Higgins? Sally: Of course! I was just testing. [Laughter] Bob: If you could have anybody come to your house and tell the Christmas story to your kids at Christmas time, who would—wouldn't you want Sally Lloyd-Jones coming and telling the Christmas story to your kids? Dennis: I think a wonderful story I'd love to hear—just to hear George tell the Christmas story. Barbara: Oh, A Wonderful Life! [Laughter] Bob: George Bailey? Dennis: Yes! Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Help me, Clarence. Help me! [Laughter] Get me out of here!” Sally: He's very good; isn't he? 2:00 Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Get me back to my wife and kids!” Sally: You love films, I guess. Bob: I do; I do. Dennis: When it's Christmas time—this happens to Bob every 11 months—so just put up with it if you would. [Laughter] I just introduced, very casually there, Sally Lloyd-Jones, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City. She is the New York Times author of a bestselling book—one of them she has written is called The Jesus Storybook Bible. Bob: I think everybody listening to FamilyLife Today has The Jesus Storybook Bible—feels like. How many copies? Sally: Two point five million. Barbara: Then I think you're right—it is everybody. Bob: Everybody I run into— Barbara: I have one, and I don't have children at home. I have mine marked—I love it! [Laughter] Sally: Oh. The most exciting thing to me is its now in 34 languages. Bob: Oh, that's wonderful. Dennis: That's cool! Barbara: Wow! Dennis: What's your favorite language out of those 34? 3:00 Sally: Well, I'm really excited about Arabic—it's just been translated into Arabic. What I love to say is, “I wrote a book I can't read,”—[Laughter]—actually, three of them! Dennis: And is it in Mandarin? Sally: I think it is. Bob: That's great! Dennis: That reaches a few people too. Also joining us is my wife Barbara. Tell them about Sally's book that we're also talking about this Christmas. Barbara: We're talking about this book that she wrote for children for Christmas: Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story. I just think it's a great idea to have books to read to your kids during the different seasons, because we have all these traditions that we do. I remember when we were raising our kids—there were certain books that we read, every season, that were favorites. I think this one will become a favorite of many families to read, year after year, with your children. Bob: We had, in our library at home, it was called The Holiday Story Book. There were stories for every holiday of the year. So you'd open it and read one for Valentine's Day or whatever. I never read any of them except the Christmas one. I remember it was a story of a car in an old car lot that was sitting there. 4:00 Nobody wanted to buy this old car—it was a clunker and barely ran. Apparently, as I remember it, Santa's sleigh malfunctioned right over the car lot; and he had to hook up the reindeer to the car. Sally: That's very good. Bob: All of a sudden, this old clunker of a car became Santa's sleigh for the holidays. There was something about reading it that was kind of my Christmas rituals to get me ready for the holidays. Barbara: It had a bit of a redemption story to it—that's why it rang true. Bob: There is something about story, at Christmastime, and the opportunity for parents to engage with their children around the Christmas story, that is meaningful on a whole variety of levels; isn't it? Sally: Yes; I love that tradition—like Barbara said. We love traditions; don't we? Dennis: Yes. Sally: I love—you know, that we have several days before Christmas to get ready for Christmas. You have lots of opportunities. Dennis: So how will you spend Christmas in New York City? Sally: Well, the thing is—I end up in England, really—so I never have been in New York on Christmas day. Dennis: Oh, New York City is delightful that time of year! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I mean, Barbara and I have been there. There is definitely a nip in the air. That city is— Sally: Oh, it's magical. 5:00 Barbara: It is magical. Dennis: It's dressed up—it is really dressed up. Sally: And again, talk about traditions—you have The Nutcracker you can go to every year. Dennis: Yes. Sally: You know, The Messiah— Dennis: Yes. Sally: —all these lovely things. In England, one of the traditions that's one of my favorites is Kings College Choir carols on Christmas Eve. Barbara: That would be wonderful. Sally: It's broadcast on the radio. Apparently, it's been broadcast since like, I think, the war—or even before. One of the stories I love is that—it's a boy choir / a male voice choir. They have little boys who might be six/seven. The whole broadcast begins with Once in Royal David's City; but the first verse is sung so low by one of the youngest boys. So they don't get completely freaked out—the choir master chooses three boys and trains them. Just like maybe seconds before the broadcast begins, he taps the boy that he's chosen on the head and he sings it; and he has no chance to get nervous. [Laughter] Dennis: Are you kidding me?! All three of them will get nervous! [Laughter] Sally: Yes; right! [Laughter] But it's so beautiful—that voice—the pure voice of a young boy singing Once in Royal David's City and the acoustics—to me, that's one of the high points of Christmas. 6:00 Dennis: So what do you do in England for Christmas? Tell us how you celebrate. Sally: You know, we do have the edge on everyone; because we know how to do Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: What's that?! Barbara: What is that edge? Yes; I want to know. Sally: Because we have Christmas pudding—figgy pudding as Dickens would call it. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Hold it; hold it! What's that made of?—Christmas pudding? Sally: It's sounds horrid, but it's delicious. I'm going to describe it, but you have to realize it's delicious. Bob: Okay. Sally: It's got currents, raisins—see, your faces already— Barbara: No; so far, so good—I love currents and raisins. Dennis: Yes. Sally: It's got some liquor in it, but it gets burned away. [Laughter] Dennis: This is why the English like it!! [Laughter] Sally: And you have it with brandy butter. Oh, yes, there's a lot of liquor in it. [Laughter] Dennis: You've got brandy in it! Sally: Is this allowed on your program? Dennis: That's what you have to do with your food in England. [Laughter] 7:00 Sally: It's a merry Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: I'm sorry—I'm really sorry for that. We've been to England and your food—you got to cross the— Barbara: —the Channel. Dennis: —the English Channel— Sally: But then, we also wear hats at Christmas—crowns / the paper crowns that come out of Christmas crackers. Now, you're really lost; aren't you? Christmas crackers—I don't even know how to describe them. Barbara: I know what they are. Sally: You pull them, and they bang, and inside is a hat and a present. Then, we drop everything at 3:00—we go and listen to the Queen's speech— Bob: On Christmas Day? Sally: —on Christmas Day. So, wherever you are with your Christmas meal, you stop everything—go and watch the Queen give a speech. She gives this incredible speech. You know, you have to really be reverent. Sometimes, the grandchildren are doing terribly naughty things, and my mother gives them a look. We all have to stand up when the anthem happens. This has happened— Barbara: —forever. Sally: —forever and ever. Barbara: How long does— Dennis: What does she speak on? I mean— Barbara: That's what I want to know. How long— Sally: She's amazing, actually. I mean, I'm a huge fan. If you think about how faithful she has been for how long— Dennis: Oh, yes. Sally: Her whole idea about duty versus—you know—of course, I am a big fan of The Crown. Did you watch The Crown? Barbara: Oh, yes, we did. It was wonderful. Sally: I'm sorry; I'm going all over the place. Dennis: Oh, yes; we did. That was very good. 8:00 Barbara: We thought it was— Sally: I'm mad on it, because you really believe Claire Foy is Queen. Dennis: You're mad about it? Sally: Mad, in a British way, is— Barbara: —is crazy! Sally: —crazy. Dennis: I knew what you said! [Laughter] Bob: Here's my question for you— Sally: They are very naughty, these people! [Laughter] Bob: I want to know, if we could invite you over to everybody's house to tell the Christmas story to our kids and grandkids, would you just pull out your book and read it to them?—or how would you engage a child in the story / the biblical story of Christmas if you were sitting down with them? 9:00 Sally: Well, I like, sometimes, to say, “When does Christmas begin?” and get them to sort of—it's always good to ask them a question; because what you want to do is get them—as they say, you're tuning your audience. Sometimes, I'll resort to pantomime effects—so you'll say/ask them a question; and they'll answer. You say: “I am sorry I can't hear you. Could you say it louder?”—until they are shouting. Then, if you've got parents there as well, you set up parents against the children. That way you have them where you want them. And then I would say to them, “So, when do you think Christmas begins?” and they'll tell you, “When the star goes in the sky,” “When Jesus is born,” “When…”—whatever they're going to say. Hopefully, they won't / none of them will say: “Actually, it begins even before there were stars in the sky / it begins even before there was anything. Before anything was there, God had a dream in His heart; and Christmas began in that dream,” and start there, because it's not expected. I always think the most important thing is to set up the longing and expectation, so that when Christmas day comes, we don't just go, “Oh, it's any old day.” We get the sense that God's people were waiting, for thousands of years, for this and that this was a promise fulfilled. It's not just a sweet story—it's the most incredible thing about God breaking into history. 10:00 Bob: When you think about communicating biblical truth to kids, you want to make sure that the story is in a very broad context, not just an isolated story. Why is that? Sally: I find that's how my heart gets got. If I see it in the big scope / if I see that none of this is just happenstance—it's all a plan and that it started with God's—just the idea that God was planning to bless us before He made us, and He knew it would all go wrong; but He still made us—that's what melts my heart. I think that's the truth in the Bible; isn't it? If you just take one story at a time, they're wonderful; but it's when you see them in the context of the big story and you see that it's a love story, that's when your heart gets changed. Dennis: When you were a little girl, do you remember the time when Christmas, the story of Christmas, grabbed your heart and captured your imagination? Sally: I don't know if I remember exactly that. I knew I loved Christmas and I loved the fact that I knew Jesus was my best friend always, ever since I was four. 11:00 Dennis: You didn't just celebrate Christmas in England, at that point; you went back to— Sally: We were in Africa. Dennis: —Africa. Sally: So, we were having—I don't know if we were still doing hats, and eating Christmas pudding, and all that stuff. We probably went to the beach. I think that's what we did on Christmas Day. Dennis: So what country? Sally: Uganda. First of all, Kampala; and then we moved to Nairobi and Kenya. So, Christmas, for me, was amidst wild animals and jungles, and that kind of—savannahs and stuff— Bob: In a tropical climate, not where there's snow falling. Sally: No. And I do remember—actually, the first thing I do remember, when I came to England, was the first time I saw snow. I thought it was ice cream coming down. [Laughter] Barbara: And you were how old? Sally: I was probably six. Barbara: Oh, amazing. Bob: So, did the biblical story of Christmas compete in your heart with the traditions of Christmas?—with St. Nicholas, with Santa Claus, with all of that? Sally: Yes; I mean, Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little. 12:00 And you know, I became a Christian when I was four; so I'm sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. But there's something—I know there are big debates about whether you should have Santa Claus. I didn't find it harmful at all. I never thought anything other than it was—I mean, I remember being devastated when I found out he wasn't real; but I soon got over it. Bob: So you were able to separate that that was fantasy and that the biblical story was history. Sally: Yes; yes. I didn't find that confusing. Bob: Why do you think that was clear to you? Sally: Because I suppose—I'd met Jesus and I knew He was my best friend—I wouldn't want it any other way. There was something lovely about it—you know, the whole excitement. I suppose the excitement of, “He's coming,” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas—it's exciting because your rescue is coming, which is much more exciting than, “Santa's coming with presents.” Dennis: And He's coming back! Sally: Yes; yes! Dennis: Not just His first advent— Sally: Exactly. Dennis: —but because the first Christmas occurred, we can look forward to His second advent. 13:00 Sally: Yes; and that is deep in us; isn't it?—that longing for Him to come. Dennis: It really is. Tell us how this book, A Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story, how it captures Christmas to young people. Sally: Well, it's interesting; because that one came because—as I was saying, I was in Africa as a little one. You know, my Christmas was in the wilds of Africa, and there's no snow on the rooftops; but Christmas was coming. I was thinking—we know the story of Bethlehem and how it's so busy and no one noticed Jesus and Mary and Joseph—but I was thinking about the animals and back to my childhood in Africa. I was thinking, “What if the animals knew, and the stars knew, and all the…” because they don't have an argument with their Maker. We're the only ones who have an argument with our Maker. Dennis: [Laughter] That's exactly right. Sally: And they're suffering; aren't they? Barbara: Right; because of us. Sally: They're suffering because of our sin and the fall, but why wouldn't they have known? 14:00 So I thought, “Well, what if,”—and again, going back to that longing of, “He's coming,”—I thought, “What if, that night, people didn't know because they were too busy; but what if the animals did?”—that's where this book came from. There's a refrain: “It's time. It's time. At last, He's coming!” Barbara: I love that. Bob: Barbara, did you have a hard time, when your kids were little, with the competition between the cultural trappings of Christmas and the spiritual message of Christmas? Barbara: I don't know that we had a hard time as much as we just did—we were very intentional about teaching what Christmas was about. We wanted our kids to understand that it was about Jesus and it was about His birth. We made putting the manger scene up sort of the focal point; but we didn't dismiss Santa, and stockings, and things; because it was fun to pretend and do make-believe. We did all of that; but it was secondary to the real reason for Christmas so that, when our kids found out, I don't think they were devastated. Sally: What was central was the truth. 15:00 Barbara: Right, and I remember being disappointed, when I was a child, finding out that Santa wasn't real; but I don't think our kids were disappointed. I think they always knew that this story about Jesus was what it was really about. This [Santa] was just play—this was fun / this was pretend, and we all enjoyed it—but that wasn't the real message. Dennis: My recollection of Christmas was sprinting to the end, and putting together— Barbara: You mean, as parents?—talking about— Dennis: Yes, as parents. Yes; I just remember getting everything ready—the swing set that I was putting up, in the dark, on Christmas Eve— Bob: You can't get it out and start putting it up until the kids are in bed; right? Barbara: Right; right. Dennis: You can't. And if I had it to do all over again, I think I'd have taken a deep breath; and I think I would have just been more in the moment and not been so frantic about trying to turn the entire Christmas day, especially Christmas morning, into this life-altering seismic experience for our kids. [Laughter] Bob: —a production. Barbara: Yes. 16:00 Dennis: And put a little more effort into enjoying them in the process and celebrating, as Sally is talking about, the real reason for Christmas—celebrating His coming. Bob: A lot of parents will get out their Bible and turn to Luke 2, and they'll read the familiar account of the shepherds, and maybe go to Matthew and read about the wise men; and they will wonder, having read that to their kids: “Did any of that sink in? Did I just read something that their eyes glazed over?” If they want this story to really come alive for their kids, and they're not Sally Lloyd-Jones, what do they do? Sally: Well, they know their children best. I'm just covering all my bases and saying, as a story-teller, what I would do is include all the days leading up to Christmas. Don't rely on just Christmas; because one of the things I think is fun to do is set up a nativity—but don't have Jesus in the nativity, and don't have the shepherds, and don't have the wise men—start introducing them. You know, you could talk about: “There were some shepherds, and they're looking after their sheep. Where shall they be in the house?”— 17:00 —and put them somewhere in the house / same with the wise men. The fun thing about the wise men is—you can have them coming closer and closer to the nativity, every day you move them, until they arrive at the nativity on the—you know— Bob: —on Christmas; yes. Sally: Yes; so you can—I think it's making it interactive and, certainly, not making it a lesson. I think that's my—I would say that: “Don't make it into a lesson. Enjoy the story, because the story is so powerful.” And there are lots of resources. You don't have to—I mean, obviously, reading the biblical account is wonderful; and then read other ways to look at it so that you come at it from different angles. There are all kinds of— Dennis: Yes; that's what I was thinking about. Your book, Song of the Stars, fits in with what Barbara has created for this Christmas—the names of Christ Adorenaments® in stars / His eternal names. Barbara: Well, my dream has been to create something that would help families teach their children who Jesus is, because Christmas is about Jesus. And so I've created this set of ornaments—that each one is a different name of Jesus. 18:00 This year, it is stars; and I've written a piece about following the star—that's what the wise men did. I think—you know, to hitchhike off what we were just saying / you said a few minutes ago—that asking questions is the way to prime your audience. I think, for parents—whether you're hanging the ornaments on the tree about Jesus and His names or whether you're reading the book—the more you can engage with your kids and ask them questions: “Why do you think it's important that we know that Jesus is the Bright and Morning Star?” “What do you think the wise men were thinking when they traveled? How long did it take them to get here?”—make it be something that engages their imagination and their thinking. They are much more likely to, not just remember the story, but want to hear it again; because it was intriguing. Bob: I'd just say, “If you'll sit quiet and listen, we'll have figgy pudding when it's over; okay?” [Laughter] Sally: And they'll run a mile! [Laughter] The other thing I think I've— Dennis: Forget the figgy pudding; let's have some of this British pudding! [Laughter] I thought it was Christmas pudding! Sally: Are you not paying attention, Dennis? 19:00 Dennis: I thought you said Christmas pudding. Sally: Well, no— Barbara: She did say Christmas pudding. Sally: They're both one and the same. Dennis: Oh really?! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I didn't catch that! Sally: Dickens had figgy pudding. Bob: [Singing] “Now bring us our figgy pudding, now bring us our figgy pudding”— Sally: Yes! Dennis: I didn't equate that with Christmas pudding that she described that had all the liquor in it. Sally: I'm sorry about this figgy pudding; it's really bringing the show down. [Laughter] I was going to mention another great idea, I think, that I've seen people do is—like with Song of the Stars for instance—I'll give that as an example. I do the same thing—I talk about, you know: “The sheep knew,” “The lambs knew, and the Great Shepherd.” So, you could take one day—the Great Shepherd—and then put some beautiful Christmas music on and have your children draw sheep or just spend some time together focusing on sheep. Then, another day, you could talk about the lion knew He was coming—the Lion of Judah. So then, you could draw lions and put on more music. 20:00 I think the more you can engage the different senses and have them creating their own art—and those could become Advent calendars / they could become ornaments— Barbara: I agree. Bob: Trust me, those are things that, 20 years from now, you'll pull out of a file and just delight over. Sally: Yes! Barbara: Absolutely; absolutely. Bob: In fact— Dennis: And in fact, the kids will be fighting over them. Bob: Well, just recently—when our kids were young, our son, David, had a little bit of a flair for art. When he was ten, he did our Christmas card—it was his drawing of the nativity that we sent out as our Christmas card that year—same as when he was eleven. Well, David's married now. His wife just saw the Christmas cards and she said, “I want those!” And we're going: “No; those belong to Mom and Dad. [Laughter] You have to get him to draw you some new ones.” [Laughter] But it is that kind of a delightful recollection of what Christmas was about, as a child, that you'll look forward to years from now. Sally: Yes. Dennis: Well, regardless—this Christmas, enjoy the moment. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Celebrate the Savior and don't miss the reason for the season. 21:00 Bob: And Sally is not able to come to your home, but her books are; and of course, we have her books in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center—the Christmas story, Song of the Stars; her book, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm for children; and then, of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. Find out more about what's available to read to your children when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. And while you're there, look at the resources Barbara has been developing for families at Christmas as well, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that talk about the eternal names of Jesus. Again, it's all available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or if you'd like to order by phone: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” You know, as we're now a few weeks away from the end of 2017, we've started to look back at how God has been at work through the ministry of FamilyLife Today in the last 12 months: 22:00 Dennis wrote a book called Choosing a Life that Matters that was released earlier this year; we've seen more people attending Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways; we've added new cities, and the average attendance is up at our events. There is more hunger than ever for practical biblical help and hope for marriage and family. We've seen more people coming to FamilyLifeToday.com, our website, getting easier access to articles, and audio, and video—they're getting the help they need when they access our content. And of course, our listeners—we're hearing from new folks, every week, who are listening to FamilyLife Today and telling us how God is using this ministry in profound ways in their marriage and in their family. We're grateful for all that God is doing through this ministry, and all of it has been enabled by a relatively small number of listeners—those of you who believe in the mission of this ministry and who want to see it expanded—want to see more people in your community and around the world helped. 23:00 We're grateful for the partnership that we have with listeners, like you, who help support the ministry of FamilyLife®. Of course, right now, as we're approaching the end of 2017, this is a particularly good time to think about making a donation. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here to explain why. Hello, Michelle. Michelle: Hey Bob, yes it is a good time to donate, which is what John from Los Altos California did…John called and took advantage of the matching fund?... and his donation was matched dollar for dollar...the reason it's a good time Bob is that the matching is going to continue during December, up to a total of two million dollars! So a big thanks to folks like John and Diane and Leona and almost thirteen hundred other folks who've called and given over two hundred sixty five thousand dollars so far…we really appreciate you! Thanks Bob…see you tomorrow 24:00 Bob: And it is easy to join us. You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; you can call to donate—1-800-FL-TODAY—or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and the zip code is 72223. Thank you for the update, Michelle; and we'll see you back tomorrow. And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow as well. Sally Lloyd-Jones will be with us again, and we're going to continue to talk about how moms and dads can connect with their kids around biblical truth. I hope you can be with us for that conversation. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Reading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-Jones

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 28:31

Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Reading to Children Guest: Sally Lloyd-Jones From the series: Telling Stories to Children (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Do you read stories to your children? Do you read Bible stories to them? Sally Lloyd-Jones has a caution for you. Sally: Whenever we read a story and then we say, “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about”—that becomes the only thing that story's about. The minute we do that—it's terrible / it's the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that because of what that does—is, basically, you've decided what that story is about / you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, December 8th. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. There is great power in telling good stories. We'll hear from a great story-teller today, Sally Lloyd-Jones. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. We're having a delightful time this week with a delightful friend. 1:00 Before we introduce her again, we're in the final weeks of the year. This is a pretty important, pretty strategic time for us as a ministry. Dennis: It is! I'll tell you something that delights me—I love hearing from listeners. I heard, recently, from a single mom who said our broadcast gives her hope every day to keep on keeping on. Here's one from somebody who struggled through the heartbreak of a divorce and a broken family—she said: “It helped me grow in Christ immensely.” And then one other: “Our marriage was falling apart. I started listening, daily, to FamilyLife Today. The information I received gave me the strength to fight for my marriage.” We have a lot of folks, Bob, who are finding help and hope for their marriage and family. But in order for us to do that, we need listeners to step up and say: “I want to stand with you guys as you guys proclaim the biblical blueprints for a marriage and a family. You're ministering to marriages and families and leaving legacies, all across the nation and all around the globe.” 2:00 Would you stand with us right now? Bob: It's easy to make a yearend contribution. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. There's a matching-gift opportunity that's in effect so, when you give your donation, it's going to be doubled—the impact of your giving will be doubled. You'll help us reach more people in 2018 and that's our goal—is to reach more people with practical biblical help and hope. Again, you can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Now, back to our conversation with our guest, Sally Lloyd-Jones. We've been talking about holidays; we've been talking about family, and fun, and about food. In fact, you don't think there can be good Christmas food in Great Britain. When you were over there, you thought all the food was horrible; right? Dennis: “I was trying to find out a way to get across the English Channel to get to France.” [Laughter] Bob: Have you watched The Great British Bake Off? Have you watched that show? Dennis: I have not, Bob. Bob: Have you watched it? Sally: Yes; everyone's obsessed! 3:00 Bob: I know, it's amazing; isn't it? Dennis: Bob, I'm concerned about you—you're watching The British Bake Off! Bob: The Great British Bake Off is a great reality show. Barbara, you would love The Great British Bake Off. Barbara: I would? Okay. Bob: So, make Dennis watch it. Dennis: No; she wouldn't; she does not like to cook! [Laughter] Barbara: I enjoy watching other people cook. Bob: That's exactly the point. Sally: That's perfectly fine with me! Dennis: I do want to welcome Sally Lloyd-Jones back to the broadcast. Welcome back. Sally: Thank you so much. Dennis: We're thrilled to have you. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City, but will celebrate Christmas back in England— Barbara: —eating figgy pudding—we found out. Dennis: —eating figgy pudding. Bob: That's right! Dennis: She is a great author. She's written a number of best-selling books, including The Jesus Storybook Bible, Song of the Stars, and one we are going to talk about today called, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm. And then a book about a child's identity, and his voice in this world their living in. How many books have you written? Sally: Over 25. I had to count them up the other day. Barbara: Wow! Dennis: Yes? That's amazing! 4:00 Your whole journey started out writing books for children when you were a little girl and you read a book that opened your mind and your heart to a whole new world with books. Sally: Yes! When I was about seven, I thought books were to learn, to be serious, [and] to do at school. I wasn't a child that really thrived at school—I was a bit dreamy. I was given this book called The Complete Nonsense by Edward Lear. In England, a lot of people know that book; but they may not in America—he's not quite so well-known here. But I'd advise everyone to get that book! I'm not getting anything—it sounds like I'm getting referrals—but I'm not! I'm just passionate about it. The reason I am is that it changed everything. I got this book, and it was the first book I had ever read all the way through—I was seven. I opened up the book and there were these insane, in a good way, crazy limericks about people with long noses and great, long beards and birds that nested in the beards and then he did all the drawings in pen himself. They were completely like just zany! 5:00 It was a revelation. I had no idea you could have so much fun inside a book. It changed everything. From then on, I wrote limericks and illustrations and then inflicted them on my poor friends and family. The reason I tell that story is that they often say that whatever you were doing when you were maybe six—five or six or seven—before you became self-conscious, and you became what you thought everyone wanted you to be—whatever you loved doing at that point, often clues you in to what should be in your life, whether it's your job or a hobby. For me, it's been proven so true. I was loving this book that was so much fun and having fun inside books; and now, all these years later—it took a long time and a long journey / and very twisty—but here I am, all these years later, basically having fun inside books, and hoping that I can get children to have fun inside books. Dennis: Inviting them to the party! Sally: Yes! Exactly, and realizing laughter—that's such a gift that God's given us. 6:00 Bob: You had an experience where you were telling a Bible story to a group of children, and it changed your thinking about how to tell stories to them. Sally: Yes; yes. I like to tell this story on myself, because I don't ever want anyone to think I think of myself as an expert. I'm learning every time I read to children. This particular time, I was invited to a Sunday school; and I was reading from The Jesus Storybook Bible—it was probably about like six years ago. I'm very good at getting children out of control—I think that's part of my job, getting them laughing—but I'm not so good at getting them under control. The Sunday school teacher had wandered away; so I read this whole story, Daniel and the Scary Sleepover. The story was all about Daniel and how he was obedient, even though he might be punished and killed; and that, one day, God was going to send another hero, who would again be willing to do whatever God told Him, no matter what it cost Him—that's how the story ends. While I'm reading this story, there's this young girl—she's probably about six—she's kneeling up. As I'm telling this story, she's so engaged—she's almost trying to get into my lap—she's so engaged. At the end of the story, I panicked; because there was no teacher, I thought, “I have to say something.” 7:00 So, I went: “So, children,”—and I was horrified to hear this come out of my mouth—I said: “So children, what can we learn about how God wants us to behave?” As I said those words, the little girl—she physically slumped / her head bowed, and she slumped. I have never forgotten it, because I think that is a picture of what happens to a child when we make a story into a sermon. Because I said that question at the end of the story, I basically made that story all about her instead of pointing to Jesus. The minute we do that, we leave the child in despair; because we don't need to be told to do it better. If we could do it better, Jesus never needed to have come. The story of Daniel is there—not to tell us what we should be doing—it's to tell us: “Look, this is what God is going to do. God is going to bring someone, who is not going to be saved at the last minute, who is going to actually die to rescue us; and that's the most incredible story.” I've learned from that. 8:00 I have never forgotten it; because whenever we read a story; and then we say: “Well, what that story's about…”—whatever we put on the other side of “about” is basically what we lead the child with—that becomes the only thing the story is about. Bob: To say: “The moral of the story is…” Sally: Is the worst thing you could ever say. I'm passionate about that!—it's terrible. Bob: But don't you want kids to get it? Sally: You do; but what that does is—basically, you've decided what that story is about/ you've decided what God might want to say to that child—but what if God wants to say something completely different? It puts too much power in our hands. It would be much better to leave the story, because I believe the story is a seed—it grows when it's left alone. It may take years for us to see the fruit of it. We may not see it growing; but that's what a seed does—it grows in the dark. It's almost, I think, none of our business. If we read a good story to a child, it's between the child and the Holy Spirit what happens with that seed. 9:00 It's not that we shouldn't ask questions; it's just that I think we need to be careful not to reduce the story down into a moral lesson, because there's a place for moral lessons. But stories are so much more powerful, because they can transform your heart. A lesson doesn't usually—like a moral lesson often leaves you feeling like the little girl—she felt in despair; because it was suddenly like: “God isn't pleased with you, because you're not as brave as Daniel,”—that's what I used to think, as a child. People often say: “Well, if you can't ask, ‘What is the moral of the lesson?' what can you ask?”—because, sometimes, you need a question. I always say, “What about if you, with the child”—like it's you are on the same level with the child, as if you're kneeling together before our Heavenly Father; because we are all children before Him—“What if you read the story together?”—coming together, not as you as the teacher, but as you and the child as children of God. You listen to the story and then you go: “Wow!” and you wonder, aloud, and you say something like—say, with the story of the feeding of the 5,000—instead of saying, “Well, children, what can we learn about sharing our lunch?”— 10:00 —you say, “The boy gave Jesus everything he had. I wonder what would happen if we gave Jesus everything we have?” and you leave it open. Suddenly, that becomes completely open; and the child's imagination can soar with that. That's a question I think that's a good thing to ask; but it's not trying to teach a lesson. Bob: Part of what you do in that question is—you put the focus on what God can do— Sally: Yes! Bob: —rather than what we're supposed to do. Sally: Amen, because then there's hope. We need to give children hope; don't we? They obviously need guidance, and there's a place for teaching and rules. I just think the story time is sacrosanct. We should come together, before our Heavenly Father, and wonder together. Bob: So when you approach writing a story like, Baby Wren and the Great Gift, which is not overtly a Christian story / no Bible verses in it—do you approach that differently than when you are writing something for The Jesus Storybook Bible? 11:00 Sally: The helpful thing about The Jesus Storybook Bible is the plot‘s already worked out. [Laughter] Bob: The story's already there; yes. Sally: So with Baby Wren, I try and “be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I think Henry James said that—I may have got that wrong—“be someone on whom nothing is lost.” I'm always open; and that book—what I have learned with books is—an idea will come from anywhere; but when it comes and it hits me in a poignant way, or it makes me laugh, or does something with my heart, I've learned to listen; because I realize, “Okay; I think that's God working to show me there's something here that I need to follow.” I don't always know what the story is—but with Baby Wren and the Great Gift, the thing that struck me was—I was in Texas at Laity Lodge. There was this little wren called a canyon wren. Literally, one time, I was just hearing this huge song; and I said, “What on earth is that?” And they said: “Oh, that's the canyon wren. You never see it—it's too tiny to notice—and yet, look at its great song.” 12:00 That idea started playing in my head. I started thinking: “That's like a child. A child is only small, and they have so many insecurities; and where do they belong in the big world?”—that's where the book came from. That wasn't really me setting out with a message—it was me responding to a clue I was given and then following clues. That's how I think the books come. I trust the Lord with that; because, if the joy and redemption are at the center of my life, they are going to be in my books—I won't be able to help it. In a way, that frees me to trust the Lord—that my passion is to bless children with the truth and with hope. That can come in the form of pre-evangelistic—it can be like Emily Dickinson said, “Tell all of the truth, but tell it slant.” The thing about the story is—you're not coming at it, head on, like you are with The Jesus Storybook Bible—but even there, it's a story. Every time you tell a story, what happens is—it captures your heart. It doesn't come at you with rules and lessons; it comes around the side and it captures your heart. I just basically trust that, “If something moves me, that's something I need to listen to.” 13:00 Dennis: I think you're exhorting us, as adults, as we tell stories to kids, “Let's leave room for imagination.” Sally: Yes; that's really well-put. Dennis: Comment, if you would, on your children's book called Found. Bob: You said that's an edible book; right? Sally: Yes! It's The Jesus Storybook Bible—the edible version. [Laughter] Basically, it's a padded board book. The board book is one of those books that toddlers cannot rip. Barbara: They can chew on. Sally: They can chew on and not destroy— Dennis: Oh! Okay. Sally: —because, when you are a baby, you don't read them; you eat them. Dennis: You are going all the way through the 23rd Psalm and just unpacking it, verse by verse. Sally: Yes; it's the same version as in The Jesus Storybook Bible. We re-illustrated it—we have given it like 12 spreads, I think. If you put, individually, one line on a page and then you illustrate it, you give space to the whole psalm. Jago has done the most incredible job of—what we talk about in picture books, you have to have heart—you have to have it in the text, and you have to have it in the art. 14:00 That's an indefinable thing; but you know when you haven't got it, and you know when you get it. Dennis: Well, you've got it; because here's the—I guess, almost halfway through the book—“…even when I walk through the dark, scary, lonely places…”—there's a lonely lamb in a valley with a rainstorm. Barbara: That's my favorite spread. Dennis: It is mine too. Barbara: Because that little lamb—it's just so representative of, not just children, but all of us. Sally: Yes. Barbara: He looks so alone, and I think that just captures what we all feel that the 23rd Psalm speaks to. Sally: You know what's interesting? It's children's favorite spread, as well. Barbara: Oh, is it? Sally: They will always go there no matter how tiny they are. I think that's fascinating; because, again, we try and—it's appropriate to protect children—but we have to be sure that we are equipping them as well. Little ones know that not everything is right out there. Whether or not we're telling them, they know—so the more that you give them a safe place— 15:00 —that's why I think they love that spread, because they're looking at something scary, which they know exists; but they are doing it with you, they're doing it with the lamb, and together you're going to get through this story. It's very important that we let them look at the dark, not just the light, obviously, in an age-appropriate way; but I think that's why it's powerful to them. Dennis: Yes; and then the next page, of course, it says, “I won't be afraid, because my Shepherd knows where I am.” Sally: And he's panned out; hasn't he? He's panned out, and you see that he wasn't alone—the shepherd was running. The look on the shepherd's face—again, heart—it's just so—it's poignant to me. When I saw the illustrations, I was just blown away. Dennis: Sally, I want to ask you for a book that you've never written / a book that has never been illustrated, but it's a story that is a book in your mind that you love to tell children. Bob: Are you looking for a scoop here? You trying to get— Sally: Yes; I mean, gosh! [Laughter] Yes; I know he's trying! He's got a notebook—I can see it!—and a recorder. [Laughter] Dennis: I've already got the publisher lined up, fellas! [Laughter] 16:00 No; I just have to believe that you've got a few tucked away that you've never put on parchment—it's just a favorite of yours. I'd be interested if you wouldn't mind telling it to our audience here. Sally: Oh my; I've gone completely blank. Dennis: Have you?! Sally: Yes; performance anxiety, you see. [Laughter] I need to skip to the loo. Maybe I'll think about it. Dennis: Okay! We can come back at the end of the broadcast, and you can tell a story. Sally: Yes; okay; okay. Bob: Barbara, as you look at books and their illustrations, you recognize the power that comes. I mean, Sally's prose is beautiful prose; but let's be honest—the book, Found, is what?—maybe 40 words?—maybe 50 words?—and well-chosen words. The illustrations are what give the words a context and a texture that bring it alive. Barbara: I always looked for books for my kids that had beautiful illustrations. To me, that was as important as the story— Sally: Oh, dear; yes. Barbara: —because I loved the illustrations as much as my kids did. 17:00 It allowed the story to come alive at a level that the words couldn't do on their own— Sally: No. Barbara: —because the illustrations support it / they give it life. They make it three-dimensional. As you said, with that center spread of the rainstorm, it takes you to that place that the words alone can't do. Sally: Yes; that's true. Barbara: I just think illustrations are powerful in books. Sally: Yes! I love hearing that. I feel the same way. I also think design—you know, like the cover—so much goes into a picture book. What you said is so true; because a picture book is a story told in two languages, word and image. The best picture books are when, as a publisher of mine said: “One plus one equals more than two. Neither of them would work without each other.” Also, what you want is that it should look as if the person, who illustrated it, wrote it; and the person who wrote it, illustrated it—they should have the same voice. Barbara: They both have a message too. The words alone don't say what the pictures alone say. They work together so that the whole thing is a much greater package, as you were explaining. 18:00 And it's a gift. When you get a book like that, you feel like it's a treasure. Your anticipation is greater when you get a— Sally: It's true, because it's beautiful. Barbara: —beautiful book than [when] you just get a book. Sally: Another thing I'm passionate about is—beauty honors God— Barbara: Absolutely! Sally: —when we do something beautiful. I also think it reaches everyone—beauty calls to everyone. Our job is to be as excellent as we can be; because beauty honors Him, and it also—it just takes away the obstacles. Like I was describing with the design: “If it's really well-designed, there's no obstacle to the story.” I think my job is always to get out of the way and let the story through. If you are a good designer, get out of the way and let the story through; and if you're an illustrator... Bob: At what age do kids move beyond you? Sally: Never! I collect picture books, and I never grow out of them. They're an art form that—well, C.S. Lewis said it; didn't he?—when he dedicated— Barbara: He did! I was just thinking about his— Sally: Yes! You probably remember it better, but I can't remember exactly the words. 19:00 Barbara: I don't remember exactly how he said it either. Sally: He dedicated it to his—to Lucy—he said, “You're too old for fairy tales, but you'll grow up and become young enough,”—or something like that. Barbara: He also said something about “A book that's good for children is good for adults,”—if it's good enough for them, then it should speak to all ages. Sally: Like “There is no book that's only for children,”—is what he said—“only good for children; because, if it's not good enough for children, it's not”—something—we're really massacring this quote; aren't we?! [Laughter] Barbara: I know! That is the idea—I've always loved that quote. Bob: Have you ever had a desire to write young adult fiction?—or to write a novel? Sally: Well, sometimes, I think about that; but then I think I'm already reaching adults in the best way, by reaching children. Bob: Yes. Sally: I just love the idea that they—you know, like Found, or Baby Wren, or Song of the Stars—they're books designed to read together; and the sound of the language—C.S. Lewis, again, said, “You should write for the ear as well as the eye.” Barbara: Right. Bob: And most of the books on my bookshelf have been read once, if they've been read at all. 20:00 Sally: Isn't that the truth? There, again—you see? Bob: But children's books? Sally: Children's books— Barbara: —over and over. Bob: —books get read. I mean, we could almost recite Goodnight, Moon; can't we? Sally: Oh; I mean, it's a genius book; and it's so deceptively simple; isn't it? Bob: Yes; yes. Dennis: It is! So, I've stalled here for you. Sally: Oh, dear; you did, and I still haven't got that story. Well, I think the thing is—my stories—I may have them; but they are sort of, again, a bit like seeds. I never quite know what they are—I have to keep following them. I have lots in process but not—I don't know—if I've got one ready to tell, I usually do it— Barbara: So you have lots of ideas, but they haven't been developed yet. Sally: Yes; like picture books—I can have an idea that can sort of—I was going to say “vegetate”—that's not the right word; is it? Barbara: —germinate. [Laughter] Sally: —germinate / vegetate doesn't sound nice—germinate—thank you!—for several years. I find that's the best way; because, again, following clues—I follow clues. Sometimes—I'm working on a middle-grade novel; but I—you know, sometimes, you don't actually want to talk about the book until it's done; because, if you talk about it, you've kind of told the story and you take away the energy you need to finish it. 21:00 So, that's a good excuse; isn't it? [Laughter] Dennis: It really is! Sally: You can't say anything now. Barbara: It works; it works! Dennis: I just hope you‘ll come back, Sally: I'd love to come back; it's always so fun! Dennis: So, you just need to know—Bob is a “foodie.” So, next time you come back, bring bread crumbs and— Sally and Barbara: —figgy pudding. Dennis: —figgy pudding! Sally: Well, I might send you a figgy pudding. Bob: I'm waiting for it; yes. Sally: No; he looks like it's a threat! [Laughter] I might send it to you, and you might have to eat it on air! Bob: I will—I will eat your figgy pudding. Barbara: If you send it, we will have to taste it for sure, after all of that! Sally: Okay. Bob: Then, I'll let you know whether to send me anymore after that. [Laughter] Dennis: That's right! I will—if I eat it, and I like it—I will repent of all my—not all—but some of my comments about English food. [Laughter] Sally: I think you're just really jealous of England really; aren't you? Dennis: Oh, I do love England! Barbara: We really do love England. Dennis: I do! We had a delightful time. Sally: You're right. English food—you don't really see English food restaurants. Although, you do in New York—fish ‘n chips / Toad in the Hole! Now, I'm really confusing you! [Laughter] Dennis: No; no. I know—[Laughter] 22:00 Bob: By the way, we have none of that in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center; but we do have some of Sally's books. Dennis: Toad in the hole? We've got some of that; don't we? Bob: It's not in the FamilyLife Today Resource Center. [Laughter] You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about the books that Sally has written for children: the Christmas story—Song of the Stars; the 23rd Psalm book called Found; and of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. We've got all of those available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800- FL-TODAY. We've also got the resources Barbara Rainey has worked on for the holiday season for families, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that reflect the Eternal Names of Jesus. Find out more about those when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Or call if you have any questions: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 Now, as Dennis mentioned earlier, this is a significant time of year for this ministry. We're hoping to hear from listeners to take advantage of a matching-gift opportunity that has been made available to us. Our friend, Michelle Hill, who is the host of FamilyLife This Week, is keeping us up to date this month on all that's going on with the matching gift. Hi, Michelle! 23:21 Michelle: Hi Bob J yeah, what's happened is pretty simple…and very generous. Some friends of FamilyLife offered to match every donation in December, so yesterday…when Leona from Pennsylvania called in? Our friends matched Leona's gift, dollar for dollar! Simple! Your gifts are being matched all December, up to a total of two million dollars, and Bob? As of today, our listeners have given just over three hundred six thousand dollars…which is REALLY encouraging! Bob: It is indeed! You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. 24:00 And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. John Stonestreet will be here to talk about how we can raise children in a culture that does not always support what we believe. Hope you can be with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis Majors

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 29:05

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Leaning on Jesus Guest: Katie Davis MajorsFrom the series: Daring to Hope (Day 1 of 3) Bob: In the midst of pain and suffering, even those with deep faith find themselves asking questions and wondering, “Why?” Here's Katie Davis Majors. Katie: We know we're supposed to say: “God is in control. God's plan is better,” but what about when we are not feeling that? What about when we are not seeing that? I think another thing God really showed me was that He hurts when I hurt. He desires to comfort me, because He understands my pain. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, December 18th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear from Katie Davis Majors today about how Jesus becomes real when we walk through the valley of the shadow. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. We've got a hero back in the studio with us today. Dennis: We do. I don't think we've ever had a guest introduced by their 14-year-old daughter, but that's what we're going to do here on the broadcast. I, first of all, want to welcome back Katie Davis Majors, married now for how many years? Katie: Almost three! Dennis: Almost three. You'll hear more about that in a moment. My wife Barbara also joins us on the broadcast. Welcome back, Sweetheart. Barbara: Thanks! It's a delight to be here. Dennis: Katie has written a book called Daring to Hope. Many of you probably heard about Katie, about a decade ago, when she wrote a New York Times best-seller, Kisses from Katie. It's a story about her adopting a few Ugandan young ladies. One of those young ladies wrote the afterword for your book—I'm not going to read it all. Katie: Okay. Dennis: It's really not fair that I don't read it all! 2:00 Her name is Joyce—she's 14. Here's what she said about her mom: Katie Majors is my mother. No mother is as brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous as my sweet, awesome mother! Barbara: Sweet! Dennis: You have really got her snowed; don't you? [Laughter] That's not what you say in your book—you talk about losing your temper and getting impatient; but somehow, she didn't ever see any of those moments, I guess; huh? Katie: She's gracious! [Laughter] Dennis: She concludes by saying this: I pray for my mom each day that God would continue to bless her life and use her to do incredible things. I love my mother because she brings glory to God, not only through her gifts, but also by calling out gifts and talents in others, including me. She speaks to us that we, too, can be used by God. 3:00 He works through her to shine His light into the hearts of many. I admire my mother; and I pray that I, too, can live a life like hers, serving others first before myself. No matter what my mother goes through, she will tell you that it is okay; because God has always been with her. She teaches me that I can trust Him to be with me too. Joyce Liberty Majors, age 14 Bob: And a lot of listeners are going, “How do you get a 14-year-old to say things like that about their mother?” [Laughter] Barbara: Exactly! [Laughter] Katie: Yes; you're going to make me cry at the beginning of this interview! Dennis: Where did you find Joyce? Katie: Joyce came to me when she was about five-and-a-half. She had lost both of her parents in the war in northern Uganda. She had been shuffled around since then in some pretty dangerous situations when she was brought to me. 4:00 Dennis: She is one, now, of how many that you have become “Mom” to? Katie: She's one of 14 kids—13 through adoption and 1 that we just gave birth to about a year-and-a-half ago. Dennis: And there's a new dimension to your life that I hinted at earlier—the second love of your life—God being the first. Katie: Yes; yes! Dennis: Benji—tell us about Benji. Katie: Benji! So Benji moved to Uganda about seven years ago. He was really—he had come on a short-term trip to volunteer at a special needs orphanage; but he was really burdened that there were a lot of ministries pouring into women, and a lot of ministries really helping out children, and not a lot of ministries pouring into men—discipling them and teaching them to be good fathers and good husbands. So, he came back, fulltime, just to disciple men and to encourage them in their roles as husband, father, [and] provider for the family. 5:00 He has been doing that now for about seven years. We met when he first came to Uganda. Dennis: Okay; I'm going to stop you there, because we're going to tell more of this story on a later broadcast. Katie: Okay; okay! [Laughter] Dennis: Your book begins in your kitchen. Katie: Yes. Dennis: It's a place where relationships are made / miracles occur. I love it—you must have a little bit of a perfectionist in you—because you talk about mud, and red dirt, and footprints in the first couple of pages of your book that all 14 of these children that you've adopted have to track in there. Katie: Oh, yes! [Laughter] I spend a lot of time in the kitchen, and the kitchen is not very clean a lot of the time. You know, it's amazing how that can happen! It's perfectly pristine before we go to bed; and then, six o'clock in the morning rolls around, and somehow it's in disarray again. Barbara: That sounds like most kitchens for most women! [Laughter] When I started reading that, I thought: “Oh! That sounds like my kitchen!” 6:00It was always sticky on the floor and crumbs everywhere. It's just a part of having a family and having kids. Life does happen in the kitchen. Katie: Yes! Dennis: Your book, Daring to Hope—I told Bob, before you came into the studio—I said, “This is really a book that could be titled Reality Check; because the reality that you have faced in Uganda, over the last decade, has really grown you up in a lot of ways, spiritually.” Comment on that if you would. Katie: Yes; it absolutely has. I mean, I think, in Uganda, suffering is so in your face; but really, that's world-over; right? You can't even turn on the news without seeing some terrible tragedy. I think anybody who can really, truly say that they believe in a good and loving Father has had to ask the question: “Okay; are You really good? And are You really loving? And if You really are good and loving, why is all of this going on around me?” 7:00 Daring to Hope, really, is kind of the chronicle of my journey through some of those questions. Dennis: Yes; and I would say: “If there's a listener, right now, who's going through a hard time—and you're kind of confused—you're maybe disappointed/discouraged—I think Daring to Hope would be a great book to pick up and read; because it's going to pull you out of your valley and remind you of the truth about God. That's really the message of Katie's book. She just wants people to know the truth about God so, as they face their reality, they will be able to trust Him as well. Bob: Yes. Katie: Thank you. I really did write it to encourage people that, no matter what they're going through—you know, it probably looks a lot different than what I was going through in Uganda—but in the midst of pain and hardship and trial, I knew Jesus in a way that I wouldn't have known Him outside of those circumstances. I believe that's His desire for all of us, no matter what our hardship is— 8:00 —just that we would know His comfort and we would know that we are so deeply loved. Bob: The last time you were with us, you shared about how, as a teenager, God gave you a heart and a vision for Uganda. You went there at 19 to care for orphans; and you started caring for them, and you started bringing them home. You started adopting them. Before you were married, you were already a mother to—how many was it? Katie: Thirteen. Bob: Thirteen kids. So you haven't adopted any new ones since marriage? Katie: No; we had all 13 of our girls before we got married. Bob: And have you thought about expanding since you've been married? You've obviously expanded, because you've got a new baby in the house. Have you thought about additional adoptions, or is 13 where it ends? Katie: Well, I mean, I think we're really open to however the Lord leads. If He would make a need very apparent, then we would definitely be open to it. I think we've seen more and more, over the years, the beauty of empowering local people to adopt. 9:00 We've seen local people become more and more open to the idea of adopting. My 13 girls were all situations where—through our ministry, we sponsor children—we send them to school; we pay for some of their food; we do a discipleship program with them—all in the hopes of keeping them with their biological family, because most biological families really do want their kids. It's just such a financial burden for them that they give them up. Our ministry is really geared toward empowering the family to care for their own children. My 13 are all groups of siblings that were older and, for whatever reason, either didn't have biological family they could be placed with or it wasn't a safe situation for them. But in the last, probably, seven years, we've had several more instances where that has happened with children that we're in relationship with through ministry— 10:00 —maybe both of their parents have died or maybe they're already staying with a grandparent and the grandparent has died. We've actually had a lot of Ugandan staff in our ministry say, “Oh, I could open my home to that child,”—especially because Amazima is covering the basics like medical care or schooling. The Ugandan culture is beautifully hospitable and relational. We've just seen so much openness from our staff and other Ugandans, we're in relationship with, to adopt. I think, for us, it's really on our hearts that we would first—we would, first, always seek out biological family; but even beyond that, we would seek out if there were a Ugandan family in our community that would desire to adopt that child. Dennis: You've been foster care parents— Katie: Yes. Dennis: —for a lot of kids. Katie: Yes. Dennis: One of the reasons why is the HIV/AIDS virus that has taken out so many people's lives in Uganda. Katie: Yes. 11:00 Dennis: I don't think people in America realize what this disease is doing to the populations of many African countries. Tell about the little girl, by the name of Jane, who came to you because of that disease. Katie: Jane is a child we fostered, but we fostered her long-term. We've had other short-term foster children, in and out of our home over the years, but we've always known that they were a short-term placement and that our goal was reunification with family. With Jane, we didn't believe that that was our goal. Jane had been abandoned when she was about nine months old and brought to me when she was around one. We searched and we looked for her biological family. We sent out radio and newspaper advertisements; and we didn't find any family that was willing to care for her. I began fostering her and began the process to make her adoption legal as well. We had her for about three years when her biological mom came back in the country from Kenya. 12:00 She tracked us down and, really, just showed up and said that she desired to parent Jane. I mean, my heart was just torn in two; because my life's ministry was about empowering the family and, at the same time, I felt like this was my daughter. I was the only mother she had ever known since I'd had her from the time she was a little baby. She was a sister to my daughters. This was really not something that we had expected or seen coming. That's kind of one of the first stories in the book, where I begin kind of asking God, “Okay; when I'm praying and I'm praying—and I'm praying for something specific, such as Jane to come back and live with us—and that doesn't happen, ‘Where are you then, God?'” or “If I think I know what's best for me, for my family, [and[ for this child, who is now confused and traumatized— 13:00 —and I think I know what would be good for her—how do I trust that, “No, truly, God knows what's best for each one of us involved'?” Dennis: And Jane's mom was not skilled, as a parent; and you could easily spot that. You knew that you were handing her back over to her biological mom to be raised in, certainly, a less-than-perfect situation. Katie: Yes; it was very scary—her mom didn't have a great track record. She went to live there for a little while, and then they actually ended up coming to stay with us for a while while her mom was between jobs. I feel like we were able to pour into both of them for a while, and then her mom got another job and was able to move out for a while. But since then—they lived near us for a long time—and since then, they have moved away; so we don't even really have a ton of contact with them anymore. Dennis: You know, that question that you found yourself wrestling with is a question that we all wrestle with in life. Katie: Right. 14:00 Bob: I remember back when the shooting in Las Vegas happened in the United States. I wrote an article about: “How do we process this kind of disaster? How do we help our kids understand it?” I said, “You've got to remind yourself of what's true—that God is in control / that He's sovereign.” I kind of rehearsed what we all know is true. Katie: Right. Bob: And I remember somebody commenting at the bottom of the article with, “Yeah, yeah, yeah; blah, blah, blah,” and I get it. Katie: Right. Dennis: Sure. Bob: I get that that is a less-than-satisfying answer in the midst of the pain, but I don't know a better answer to that; do you? Katie: I don't. I know—you know, as I was writing this book, I didn't want it to be a bunch of Christian platitudes; right? Bob: Right; right. 15:00 Katie: We know we're supposed to say: “God is in control. God's plan is better,” but what about when we are not feeling that? What about when we are not seeing that? I think another thing God really showed me was that He hurts when I hurt. He desires to comfort me, because He understands my pain. It's the same, you know, for the shooting in Las Vegas—for people who've lost people—it's not that God looks on and says, “Okay; okay,”—you know? God is devastated by that suffering. He is deeply grieved, and He hurts alongside of us. I think that gave me even more comfort than knowing that God was in control— Bob: Yes. Katie: —and knowing that God had a plan. I was comforted knowing that God saw my hurt. He experienced it with me, and He desired to love me in the midst of it. Bob: In Romans, Chapter 8, where it talks about the reality of our adoption— 16:00 —that God has adopted us / that we are joint-heirs—it goes on to throw this curve ball in the middle of talking about all of this blessing. It says, “Here is what God has given to those He loves—we have His Spirit / we are joint-heirs if we suffer with Him.” Katie: Yes; yes. Bob: It's kind of like: “Why did you have to throw that in there, God? Why couldn't it just be, ‘Here's what you get'?” Dennis: Yes. Bob: But there is a connection between glory and suffering— Katie: Yes. Bob: —that we're adverse to, but that is a part of God's plan for us. Katie: I absolutely believe that. You know, Paul even says that “it has been granted unto me, not just to preach the gospel of Christ, but to suffer with Him.” Bob: Yes. Katie: I always read that and think: “Oh, God! Let that be my perspective on it—that it has been granted unto me—because, through suffering, I might know a part of God's heart that I wouldn't know otherwise.” Dennis: I have a friend, who was in a tragic plane crash. While he was struggling for his life in the hospital, I performed the funeral for his five-year-old son. He made this statement that certainly anyone could make; but a person in his place, having lost a son—it just becomes really profound—he said, “Life wouldn't be so difficult if we didn't expect it to be so easy.” And what your book does—is your book really forces us to realize that there are going to be prayers that appear to be unanswered. Katie: Yes. Dennis: There's going to be brokenness that continues on—in our own lives and in the lives of those we love—but we have to trust the God Who is going to be near us. That's really the message of your book— 18:00 —that, in the process of struggling over these prayers that appear to be unanswered or have an answer that's a “No,”—you've gotten to know Jesus Christ in a way you couldn't have known Him otherwise. Katie: Yes! Absolutely! I think I've learned that God isn't promising us a world without trouble, or without pain, or without heartache; but He's promising us Himself; right? He calls Himself “Emmanuel” / “God with us.” He's promising to be near to us, and that's the greatest gift. Barbara: Well, I couldn't agree more; because I have learned over the decades of my life that the hard times are the times when I have gotten to know Christ more. He knows that about us. He knows that if life is easy—and it's good and everything works out the way we want it to—we're not going to need Him—we won't depend on Him / we won't be forced, on our face, to seek Him. And so, as hard as the hard things are, they're really good things—good that God intends to work in us. 19:00 I was just talking to someone last weekend about this—we were both saying, “We wouldn't wish what we've been through on anyone, but we wouldn't trade it for anything because of what we know of Him now that we wouldn't have known apart from that experience.” That's a part of what I love so much about your book—is that it speaks to that—that everyone experiences. God deals with us, as individuals. What He brings in your life is different than what He brings in my life; but it's all for the purpose of knowing Him and knowing Him as He really is, not as we imagine Him to be. That's such a good thing. Dennis: I can't imagine a 29-year-old writing this book. That's what I told Bob when we came in the studio—I said: “It's because of where Katie's been/— Barbara: Yes. Katie: That's right. Dennis: —“it is what she's seen—the number of people she's prayed over for healing, for God to rescue them from HIV/AIDS, and God said, ‘No,' and took them on to heaven.” Katie: Yes. 20:00 Dennis: But you have a perspective that you're passing on that I think, really—Bob, all of us today in America, where we live with so many comforts and we're removed from the slums, where Katie has taught a Bible study. We're removed from the graveside—we may go to a funeral or two a year—but Katie's been to a bunch of them over the years, and that's where perspective is. Ecclesiastes says, “It is better to go to the house of mourning than it is to go to the house of pleasure; because in the end, the living take it to heart.” Bob: You know, this is a book that reminds us that most of the problems that we're facing are what we call “first world problems.” That doesn't mean they're not real and challenging; it just means we have to keep life in perspective and know what really matters. Katie, you point us to that in your book, Daring to Hope: Finding God's Goodness in the Broken and the Beautiful. 21:00 We've got copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” I have to tell you—we just recently had an opportunity to be in a number of cities with listeners to FamilyLife Today and had a chance to hear from many of you how God has used this ministry in your life in some significant ways—and how He is still at work, using the ministry of FamilyLife Today to help you grow in grace / to provide practical biblical help and hope to your marriage / your family. It's always encouraging when we get an opportunity to be face to face with listeners. 22:00 On behalf of the folks we had a chance to meet, I want to thank those of you who are Legacy Partners and those of you who support this ministry financially. You need to know that your investment in the lives of people all across the country and around the world is paying off. God is using FamilyLife Today powerfully in the lives of so many people. It was encouraging for us to see some of that first-hand. I know some of you are thinking about yearend giving—ministries or organizations where you might like to make a yearend financial contribution. We have a special opportunity for you, here, at FamilyLife to be invested in this ministry. There's a matching-gift fund that's been made available to us; and it means that your donation, here, at yearend will be doubled. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here with an update on how things are going with the matching-gift fund. Hello, Michelle! 23:00 Michelle: Bob, I have some BIG news about the match fund!...and this is breaking for us, so I'm a little out on a limb here, but Jordan just told me the matching fund is going to double…as in over four million dollars!! (…and we don't know exactly because this is happening almost as I speak) …but more than ever, we'll need every listener to pray, seek God, and give as He directs. You know, four million dollars seems big to me…but Bob? I believe God's generosity is at work here, so I'm asking everyone, please just prayerfully do whatever God calls you to do to, and you know what? While you're at it, praise Him for His amazing generosity! right now we're at seven hundred ninety one thousand dollars! Bob: And it is easy to make an online donation. You can do that at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223. 24:00 We'll look forward to your update again tomorrow, Michelle. And we hope you'll be back with us again tomorrow when Katie Davis Majors will be here. We're continuing to talk about her life in Africa and her life as a newly-married adoptive mother of 13 children and a bio mom of a baby boy. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. Martin

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 30:05

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron BlakeChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 2) - Diana PrykhodkoChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. MartinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Miracle from Possum Trot Guest: W. C. MartinFrom the series: The Miracle from Possum Trot (Day 1 of 1) Bob: When the bishop at Bennett Chapel Baptist Church in Possum Trot, Texas, W.C. Martin and his wife Donna, decided they were going to adopt some children from the foster care system, they had no idea what was about to happen in their little town. W.C.: We don't have any Ph.D. folks at our church that can map out this and show you how to do that. We don't have that. But what we do have was just pure love that we can give a child. We just do the Word—like you just said, being a doer of the Word. This ain't about having a meeting to see if we want to do this. We just did the Word and gave God the GLORY for doing it! [Applause] Bob: This is a special edition of FamilyLife Today for Friday, November 25th. This program was recorded in front of a live studio audience. You'll hear our conversation today with W.C. Martin, and hear how revival almost broke out in the middle of the interview. Stay with us. 1:00 [Recorded Message] And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Once again, we have got a wonderful live studio audience with us. We are here at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit IX! [Applause] Yes! [Laughter] And as I was thinking about what we're going to talk about today, I was thinking about one of your favorite quotes from Billy Graham. Do you know the quote I'm talking about? Dennis: I do. He said: “Courage is contagious. When one man takes a stand, the spines of others are stiffened.” We're going to hear a story today about a man and his wife who took a courageous stand on behalf of the orphan, and took God at His Word. I was reminded of this—a lot of Christians live their entire Christian faith out and never step out and never take this verse and the promise of what it means. 2:00 Listen to this—Ephesians, Chapter 3, verse 20: “Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly than all we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever. Amen.” I think one of the great challenges for us, in this day, is looking around at a culture that has a target-rich environment for us to be salt and light in this world but, especially, as we address the needs of orphans. Taking on the issue of foster care and adoption, we need to be men and women, young men and women, boys and girls of faith, who take God at His Word and expect great things from Him. Bob: We're going to meet somebody today who caused the spines of others to stiffen by the courageous step he took. It's a story that has been told on Oprah, and the Today Show, and just about everywhere— 3:00 —not just here in the United States—but internationally. We want you to join us and welcome to the stage Bishop W.C. Martin. Would you welcome him? [Applause] Dennis: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, Bishop. You and your wife Donna have been married for 35 years. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: You have six children, four of whom are adopted. Apart from that being the claim to your fame—I know that's number one, there, and your love for Christ—you are the bishop of Bennett Chapel in Possum Trot, Texas. W.C.: On the other side of Coonville. Bob: Known as what?—South Coonville? W.C.: On the other side of Coonville. [Laughter] Dennis: This goes back to 1996. Take us back to how this all started in Possum Trot. W.C.: Well, my wife's mother passed. 4:00 She had one of those community-type mothers—everybody coming to her house, and eat, and play, and everything. She had 18 brothers and sisters of them. Bob: Eighteen. W.C.: Yes, 18. On the passing of her mother, she said one morning, “Lord, if You can't take this burden from the loss of my mother, just let me die.” The Lord just spoke and said, “Give back.” God told us to adopt—foster and adopt. The whole thing started right there. We went to class. We had to take 12 weeks of Pride classes in Texas. Dennis: Let me just stop you for a second, though. This starts a lot of times—adoption—with our wives speaking into our hearts. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: A lot of us, as men, kind of get dragged into this. You had some fears. W.C.: I sure did. Dennis: You had some concerns. W.C.: I sure did; because she had kind of told me some other things and didn't follow through with it; you know? Bob: Ahhh. [Laughter] 5:00 W.C.: I said, “Here goes another one of them.” [Laughter] Dennis: “Can this marriage be saved?” I understand! [Laughter] W.C.: I said, “Here goes another one of them hair-brained ideas you're coming up with!” [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to remind you this is live radio, and Donna will be listening. W.C.: Oh! [Laughter] Bob: I just want to find out from the audience: “How many of you had husbands who said, ‘Here goes another one of her hair-brained ideas'?” Raise your hand. There are a lot of hands up here; yes! W.C.: Well, good thing I'm not the only little boy on the block! [Laughter] Dennis: So what eventually won you over? W.C.: Well, I felt the calling of God. I felt, within myself, that this was what God wanted us to do—not even knowing what the outcome was going to be / not even knowing anything about this because I always thought that people—I didn't even know that there was such a thing as adoption, because I thought people always took care of their children. That's all I ever knew. I didn't think anything else, you know; because in places like Possum Trot, there was always a Grandmamma Yelma, or Aunt Pookanell, or somebody, when Mama died, you came in. [Laughter] 6:00 That's what I always thought; you know? I never knew anything different. So, that started it. What happened was—when we adopted our first little boy / little girl, named Mercedes, who had been in nine homes for one year. They didn't want us to have those children, because they figured that we were new in the business and new in the game—we could not deal with Mercedes and Tyler because they had such a bad record. But, then again, we showed them that we had Somebody on our side that they didn't know anything about. [Laughter and cheering] Don't start me preaching up here now; I don't want to do that! [Laughter] Dennis: We know it's going to happen! [Laughter] Mercedes was five and her brother was— W.C.: Three. Dennis: —three. Where had they been? Why were they in the foster care system? W.C.: Because their mother had gotten killed in Dallas, Texas, in a bad drug deal. 7:00 As a result of it, Mercedes had to end up being the mother and the father for Tyler. She ended up just developing this thing about stealing and lying. She could con a con artist herself; you know?—until— Dennis: Yes. W.C.: —until she met me. [Laughter] Dennis: Yes. This is what I want our audience to know—not that he can take over a liar—[Laughter]—but I want the audience to know that for all these drug busts we see on TV / the crime—there are kids involved. W.C.: There surely are. Dennis: They're going someplace. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: I know a family that, since they've been here at this event, in the past 48 hours, got a phone call at 1:15 a.m. to take care of five kids who had just been delivered to the sheriff's office, or the police station, and were sleeping on the floor because they had nowhere to go—all as a result of crime. W.C.: Yes. 8:00 Dennis: So we kind of make it out there; but when you go near the foster care system, you're going to find it's up-close and personal. Bob: I just want to know: “When you brought Mercedes and her little brother into your house, was it hard for a while?” W.C.: I think it was harder on them because Mercedes was used to just going from place to place. Nine homes in one year is a lot of places. Bob: Oh, yes. W.C.: She didn't trust nobody. That was the big problem Mercedes had—she trusted nobody—because she didn't know what trust was all about. She didn't know how to trust / she didn't know the first thing about trust. What we had to do was to win Mercedes and Tyler over. I figured that if we got Mercedes, Tyler was going to do whatever Mercedes said—that was the situation. It was a bad, bad situation; because she had experienced so much at a young age. Bob: How long did it take, and what did you do to win Mercedes over? W.C.: Showed them a lot of love— 9:00 —just loved them out of what they were in to show them that that was never God's will for them to have a life like that and that we are here. I told her—I said: “Mercedes, look. This is the last train to Georgia. You are not going nowhere. You might as well say, ‘This is it.'” And that was it. Dennis: You decided to adopt that quickly? W.C.: The way the state set it up—is that we had to foster for six months, with the intention of adoption after six months was up. Bob: And when you did this, word spread around Possum Trot what the bishop and his wife were doing; didn't it? W.C.: Yes; it spread it. By the same token, I'd been the person over our congregation. People now began to understand what adoption was really all about, not knowing in the beginning. I looked up every Scripture that I could find in the Bible. I learned that adoption was a God-thing, in the beginning. You know, if you look back—there was Moses was adopted / Esther was adopted. 10:00 A lot of people differ with me on this, but Jesus was an adopted child. I know there are other ways you can look at it, but He was an adopted child. [Applause] Dennis: Yes; and just to illustrate here—one of my favorite questions to ask an audience is: “How many of you, in this audience of almost 2,500 people, are adopted?” Hold your hands up. W.C.: Everybody! [Laughter] Dennis: Well, those of you who didn't hold your hands up, would you read Ephesians, Chapter 1: [Laughter] “…whom He predestined to become His sons”—and daughters—“through adoption.” W.C.: That's right. Dennis: The reason I think God calls us, as believers, to go near the orphan and to care for orphans is—it is God's heart / and it had better be, because we were lost and now we've been found. Bob: Now, you've got him preaching! See how this works?—back and forth! [Laughter] Dennis: Yes. So what happened in your church? 11:00 W.C.: Well, after I got up and explained to the church what was going on, we started having families after families come and say, “I would like to do this, but I don't want…”—we had to drive 120 miles, round-trip, to take what they call Pride classes, that was a 12-week course. I had enough families—I went to the state and asked them, “Would they be willing to come to our church and teach the classes?” Well, the lady said, “If you could go and find me eight families,” which they knew that was something that was just impossible to do—so they thought—but you know, God had another plan for it. What happened was—when I went and got the families, I carried a list back and laid it before her. When she unfolded the paper, I had 23 families on that list. [Laughter and cheering] Dennis: So what happened? She came? W.C.: She did! [Laughter] I don't know how many of you in here are case workers or ever did that before, but the work load that a case worker has to do is enormous!— 12:00 —you know, doing the home studies and doing the background history checks. That's a lot of work for anyone to do—and to say that she got 23 families now—that she's got to do all that work for. [Laughter] Dennis: At the time you started this, with 23 families—how many attended your church? W.C.: We probably had about 85 families. Dennis: So a fourth of your church, back then, stepped up to care for foster care kids. W.C.: They stepped up, not having anything—because we didn't know / we didn't have a clue as to what was all involved. I did not know that there were children who had their own agenda and own ideas about where they were. I didn't know that they steal. I didn't know that they lie. I didn't know that they do stuff like that. I didn't have a clue about that. Dennis: Right. W.C.: But they sent me to school, as well as gave me a Doctor's degree in child psychology! [Laughter] But by the same token, what happened—God had already taught us patience. 13:00 My oldest son—my biological son—is 29 years old. He was born with severe brain damage. So then, my brother thought that I had lost my mind. Bob: I am guessing Possum Trot is not an affluent community. W.C.: It's not. It's not at all, because it's a very poor community. One family that I have, right now: She had adopted five little girls / one of them was her child—she adopted five. Then, her sister died—she had got three. Then, her sister's husband died. Then, I went to the state because I did not want to see those children go back into the system in which they were fixing to come. I went to them and asked them, “What could we do to keep those children in the community?” This family brought those children into their home. What she did—she raised 11 children in a trailer house. [Audience gasp] Bob: Wow. Dennis: You just raised an issue that I want our listening audience to be aware of. The church needs to realize the state is not the enemy when it comes to foster care. [Applause] 14:00 They really are—the state really is waiting, I think, for the church to come to them and to say: “We want to cooperate. We want to help you”; because the state doesn't know what to do with these children. They don't have homes for them to go into. They need someone to step up, and step forward, and say, “Give us—give us your children.” W.C.: Yes; that's right. That's right. See, that's what we did. We had a rough time in the beginning, because the school didn't know what to do about the children. But for the most part—I could say it like this: “If God is for you, who can be against you?” [Applause] It doesn't matter! Dennis: Right. W.C.: It does not matter what goes on. If God calls you to this particular ministry, you are going to catch some slack, and you are going to catch some problems; but, ultimately, I can say you shall be victorious over everything that what they say: 15:00 “It can't be,”— with God, it can be; because the Scripture said, “I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me.” Bob: Now, you got him to preaching. See how this works? [Laughter] Dennis: Well, there's a reason why the school system felt the stress of what happened at Bennett Chapel. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: Share with the audience how many children have been adopted into families of your church. W.C.: We have, at this time, 76 children that have been adopted. [Applause and cheering] Bob: How has that changed Possum Trot? W.C.: It changed our hearts and opened our hearts up to let us know that God created it all. It's not so much what we're doing for ourselves—but what we're doing for others—because that's what Jesus did. Dennis: Right. W.C.: He went out of His way to show us that He loved us. What He wants us to do is follow that same trend and go all out of our way. 16:00 Adoption is a great thing. It's one of the greatest things that we ever can do, because we are only following what God has already started by adopting us. Back then, that was a part of the plan of salvation—was adoption. That's what we have to do, now. Everybody can't do it, but everybody can be a part of what God is doing in that arena of adoption. [Applause] Dennis: We sometimes think that we're doing the orphan a favor by going near and doing the noble thing of being a foster care parent or perhaps adopting. The orphan is certainly the recipient of love, but we don't realize how much we need the orphan to save us from toxic self-absorption. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Haven't you found that in your own life? W.C.: Yes, yes, yes—because Mercedes called my wife, the other day—she said: “Mamma, I don't know where I would be, because of the way my life was going, if it had not been for what you and Dad have done for me. 17:00 “I don't know how my life would have turned out.” Mercedes was a child that—she could steal you blind, tell the same lie a thousand times—never change her facial expression / never change one word of it—but she couldn't even count to ten. My wife used to spend hours, every day, putting pennies on the table to teach Mercedes. She taught her how to count to ten. Then, she taught her how to count to twenty, and just went on up. It ended up—Mercedes was an honor roll student in her class. You know, God is showing us that these children have purpose in their life. They are just not—somebody—no; we are not doing them a favor, but I think they're doing us a favor; because what they are doing—they are teaching us some things about love that we don't even know. They are teaching us some God-kind of love—not just we are trying to love somebody—but they're teaching us something because those children really taught me what true love and pure love was all about— 18:00 —because we were reaching out, and bringing them in, and showing them a light that we were supposed to have been doing all the time. This is something that every church on this earth needs to reach up and wake up: “If they can do it in Possum Trot, on the other side of Coonville—and they don't have no streetlights, don't have no street signs, don't have no hotels and all that stuff—we ought to be able to do it in our church.” Thank You, Jesus! [Applause, cheering, laughter] Dennis: I would imagine, right now, that every person, who is listening to this broadcast, goes to church. What is there unclear about the statement you just made? Go to your pastor, go to your elder board / your deacon board—whatever the structure is—and say: “Let's do something. Let's be doers of the Word, and be those who are about caring for the orphan.” W.C.: Yes; yes. 19:00 Bob: But don't just take it to the elders and deacons and say, “Here, you guys do something,”— Dennis: Oh, exactly, Bob. Bob: —because they have enough to do. You need to go and say, “We're here—ready to do whatever we can do to help this be a part of the culture of our church.” Dennis: And it's going to cost you. Bob: Yes. Dennis: It's going to cost you 12 weeks of training, or whatever it is in your state. W.C.: Yes; yes. Dennis: You're going to see a lot of red tape and a lot of system; but it's like: “If that's all the cause means to you and you're not willing to endure some things like that, then find something that grabs your heart.” W.C.: We don't have any Ph.D. folks at our church that can map out this and show you how to do that—we don't have that. But what we do have was just pure love that we can give a child. We just do the Word—like you just said—being a doer of the Word. This isn't about having a meeting to see if we want to do this. We just did the Word and gave God the GLORY for doing it! [Applause] 20:00 Dennis: And all of God's people said: Audience: Amen! [Laughter] Dennis: We're going to close the broadcast with a question; because I would like to know, “Out of everything you've done in all of your life, what is the most courageous thing you have ever done?” W.C.: I believe the most courageous thing that I've done, first of all, personally, was to accept Christ as my Savior. [Applause] That was number one. And number two—I think that what I've done was to share me with so many children, all across this country. I'll continue to do that as long as God lets these legs move and lets this voice talk. I'm going to continue to let the world know that the church—the leaders / the pastor—we have a duty to perform before God. Don't let this go down as, “God got an indictment against the church for what He told us to do and we refused to do it.” That's a bad thing! 21:00 Let us, at this point, get involved / make a difference. Tell the pastor, “Look, we got to do this.” We, as pastors, are just like a mailman—we didn't write the letter, but we've got to deliver the letter. So what I'm saying to you: “Tell your people about adoption. If you can't do it, help them out to do it. Just do something!” [Applause] Dennis: Well, I want to thank you for being a courageous man— W.C.: God bless you. Dennis: —and for being a man who believes the God who is able to do exceedingly abundantly beyond— Dennis and W.C.: —all we can ever ask or think. Dennis: To Him be the glory for this generation and all generations. Bob: Would you guys thank Bishop Martin for joining us here? [Applause] W.C.: God bless you. [Studio] Bob: Well, it's fun to listen back to our interview with Bishop W.C. Martin. 22:00 This took place back in 2013 at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit—a great event that is held annually in May. In fact, May 4th and 5th of 2017, the Summit will take place at Brentwood Baptist Church in Nashville, Tennessee. There's a good line-up on-hand. Ann Voskamp is going to be at the Summit this year / Andrew Peterson will be there. Of course, we'll be there, again, doing interviews for FamilyLife Today. If you have a heart for orphan ministry—or for your church / if you're involved in orphan ministry—plan to join us at the Summit, May 4th and 5th, 2017, in Nashville, Tennessee. If you need more information about the Summit, go to our website, which is FamilyLifeToday.com. There's a link there that can get you all the information you need about next year's event. 23:00 Now, as the Christmas season is officially here—now that Thanksgiving is over—as you head toward the last few weeks of the year, I know some of you are beginning to think about yearend contributions to ministries, like FamilyLife Today. You need to know that all of the programs you hear on Christian radio look to this time of year as a significant time. What happens in the next few weeks really determines a lot about what our ministries will be like in 2017. So I want to encourage you, first of all, as you think about yearend contributions, make sure that your local church is in first place in your giving. We believe that the local church ought to be your giving priority. Then, if there are programs on this station that have had an impact in your life this year, consider giving a yearend gift to one of those programs. If FamilyLife Today is one of those programs, we hope you'll consider a yearend contribution to this ministry as well. As I said, your financial support now determines a lot about what we can do in the months ahead. 24:00 We hope you'll prayerfully consider how you might support the programs on Christian radio that have ministered to you during the year 2016. And we hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. We're going to talk about how we keep Jesus at the center of our holiday celebration by remembering who He is and what Christmas is really all about. Barbara Rainey will be with us. I hope you can join us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron Blake

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 31:36

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron BlakeChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 2) - Diana PrykhodkoChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. MartinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Adopting the Football Team Guest: Aaron Blake From the series: Adopting the Football Team (Day 1 of 1) Bob: Aaron Blake is a pastor and worked for years as a guidance counselor at a local high school. He says nothing in his background prepared him for a conversation he would have with a young man named Melvin. Aaron: I didn't understand what helping a 15-year-old in foster care was about. I had counseled folks with marriage, death and dying, jail—all kinds of situations—but never a foster kid that was in the system that had been in nine different placements since he was in high school. Now, he was sitting in front of me. I said this to him—I said: “Melvin, if I could, I'd take you home with me.” Bob: This is a special on-location edition of FamilyLife Today for Thursday, August 13th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear a powerful story from Bishop Aaron Blake today as we learn about how God enlarged his family. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Once again, we've got maybe the world's greatest studio audience joining us here at the Christian Alliance for Orphans' Summit. [Applause] [Laughter] We're going to talk about something that your [Dennis'] heart for this subject has been expanded in a personal way over the last several years. Dennis: It has. Barbara and I have six children, one of whom is adopted—we don't know which one [Laughter]—but our children have picked up the virus—the adoption virus. We now have 21 grandchildren through biological means but also adoption. 2:00 There's a couple here—my engrafted son, Michael Escue—and his wife, who is our daughter, Ashley. Ashley and Michael have cared for 21 foster care children over the years and have emptied their county of any waiting children in the foster care system. [Applause] We have a hero with us that I think fulfills one of the words that Christ gave in His Sermon on the Mount. Matthew, Chapter 5, says, “In the same way, let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.” You are about to meet a hero, who has let his light shine, along with his wife Mary of 38 years. Bishop Aaron Blake is going to join us on the stage. Come on up, Bishop. Bob: Bishop Blake, join us. [Applause] 3:00 Dennis: Welcome to the broadcast and our small studio here; okay. He has been a pastor for more than 35 years. For a number of years, Bishop, you served as a bi-vocational pastor. You were a high school guidance counselor. That's really where the surgery for your heart began, around the subject of foster care—share how that happened. Aaron: Well, the school that I was presently serving had a situation where a number of kids came into the school—that were in foster care. Many times, kids that move from placement to placement had a situation where they lost credits every placement. 4:00 So, being there, as a guidance counselor/social worker, I wanted to find out how we can recover the credits of those kids so that that wouldn't be another setback for them. My journey started when one kid came to me with that problem. Bob: That was Melvin who came to you; right? Aaron: Well, when he came into the office now, he came in the office with a little chip on his shoulder and a little attitude. Bob: Yes. Aaron: He came in and sat down on the desk in front of me. He said, “I don't know who you are, and I don't know what you do; but you can't make me go to class.” I said: “Well, I'm not the principal. I'm not the one that makes you do anything; but when you decide that you want to go to Brownwood High School, let me know.” He sat in front of me. He sat through first period, second period, and third period—and then the bell rang for lunch. He said, “Are you going to let me go eat?” 5:00 I said, “Man, you don't have any lunch because you're not enrolled.” [Laughter] I thought food would convince him that maybe he needs to get a class. He said, “Well, we'll just sit here then.” Then, after the last bell rang, I got hungry. [Laughter] We went to lunch, and that started the dialogue of who Melvin was. On the way to lunch, I noticed he had some biceps and triceps. So, on the way to lunch, I took him through the football gymnasium and dressing room. Something about a sock-smelling dressing room that goes into the head and nostril of a kid—and he said, “Do you think I could play football for Brownwood High School?” I said, “No way.” He said, “Why?!” “You won't go to class!” [Laughter] We go get a burger. We come back— 6:00 —we come back through the hall where all of the trophies and the pictures [are] on the wall. That was my high school alma mater by the way—and two of those championships, I was on—there was my picture. I said, “You see that guy there?” He said, “Don't tell me that was you.” I said, “Yes.” I said, “We won State Championship,”—pulled him by the coach's office. The coach began to talk to him—say, “Hey, isn't this the guy that's going to come play football?” I said, “No way.” He said, “Why?!” I said, “Because he won't”—and then Melvin punched me in the side. [Laughter] We walked off and Melvin said: “Hey, I'll make a deal with you. If you get me on the team, I'll go to class.” I got him on the team / he went to class, but my main assignment that day was to recover Melvin's lost credits. Many kids, across the country in foster care, these things happen. That's why the drop-out rate and the inability to finish high school are high amongst foster children. 7:00 Dennis: You know, you not only cared about his lost credits, you also cared about his lost soul. Aaron: Yes. Melvin had gotten into class, gotten on the football team, and had some success that year. Then, at the end of the year, something happened with his placement. CPS [Child Protective Services] called and said, “We're coming to get Melvin.” The school transferred the call to me. They said: “Would you prep Melvin because we're going to have to move him. We know he's having success, but something happened.” Before I could get to Melvin, the CPS worker had already gotten to the school and told Melvin that he's going to move. Melvin bolted out the door, ran to the side of the building, across the football field and was gone. The CPS worker came and said, “He probably is going to contact you because of relationship.” 8:00 That evening, I stayed at the school late. Melvin came in and sat in the same chair in front of my desk that he sat in the first day that he came to see me. He sat in that desk after running. Perspiration drenched his body / his clothes—running down his face. I couldn't tell the tears running down his face from the perspiration. We sat what seemed like 15 minutes but probably was only 15 seconds. Finally, he squeaked out these words—and they're the reason why I'm here today—he said, “Brother Blake, will you help me?” Well, I didn't understand what helping a 15-year-old in foster care was about. I had counseled folks with marriage, death and dying, jail—all kinds of situations—but never a foster kid that was in the system and had been in nine different placements since he was in high school. 9:00 Bob: Wow. Aaron: And now he was sitting in front of me. I said this to him—I said, “Melvin, if I could, I'd take you home with me.” He said, “Really?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “You would take me home with you?” I said, “In a heartbeat.” I said, “But CPS is coming, and you have to go with them.” He said, “Okay.” I learned, six months later, that Melvin heard something that I didn't think I said; but I understood. Melvin told the caseworker that “Brother Blake said that I could come live with him.” [Laughter] They called me and they said, “Melvin said that you said he can come live with you.” I said, “Wow!” While I had the phone to my ear, I couldn't say, “No.” There was something happening in my spirit and in my heart that I couldn't say, “No.” At the same time, Mary was in my mind; and I couldn't say, “Yes.” [Laughter] 10:00 On the way home, now, I rehearsed over and over [Laughter] what I was going to say to Mary. At supper that night, she was just going off about everything. I didn't hear anything she said—[Laughter]—I was trying to figure out what I was going to say. Finally, I said, “Guess what happened to me today” [Laughter]; and then I told about Melvin. I didn't know that Melvin had been in her Sunday school class. She said, “You mean little Melvin doesn't have a home?” I said, “No.” She said, “Little Melvin that goes to school?” I said, “Yes.” She said, “I hope you told them ‘Yes.'” I literally almost fell out of my chair. I couldn't wait until the next morning to call CPS to tell them: “Hey, yes. Melvin can come.” 11:00 I called at 8:00 straight up and got voice mail; but anyway, finally when I got through, I said: “Tell Melvin, ‘Yes,' he can come and live with us. We're ready.” Then they said, “Are you a licensed foster parent?” Bob: The audience knows a little bit about that. Aaron: Yes. Well, I didn't know anything about it. I said, “What do you buy this at?” [Laughter] Well, we quickly found an agency and went through the process. Melvin came to live with us. That is how that story— Bob: That was the first of six foster sons—all of them foster sons—is that right? Aaron: Yes, all of them foster. Let me tell you this story quickly, if I can. Melvin played football. The outside tight end was a foster kid—blew his placement. At practice, Melvin went to him and said: “Don't worry about it. [Laughter] I know where you can go.” [Laughter] 12:00 But then, the outside line backer blew his placement— Dennis: Well, you know how many kids are on a football team. Aaron: Well, I do. [Laughter] So Melvin and Joseph go and say to Buck: “Don't worry about it guy. We can't lose you! We've got to win the playoffs.” [Laughter] So, he came to live with us. [Laughter] CPS called and says: “He has a brother. [Laughter] We love to keep siblings together”; and he came to us. Six boys later, our house was filled up. Dennis: You were a bi-vocational pastor at that time. Your church watched you do this. What was the impact on your congregation? Aaron: I went to my church. I stood up one Sunday—heart was heavy because, at that particular time, there were 30, 000 kids in the system in Texas. 13:00 I also noticed there were an over representation of African-American children—a dis-proportionality—that was also in the system. God began to deal with me that Sunday on the ministry of reconciliation. Reconciliation without restoration won't work. God has called us, because He's reconciled us by Christ to Himself, and given us the ministry of reconciliation. Then I say, “God, how can I really preach James 1:27, as undefiled religion without understanding restoration of families?—and restoration of children?” So, I stood up that Sunday in front of my congregation. I said, “Guys, how many of you here would help me stand up for orphans?” I didn't mean literally stand up; but a lady in the back stood up and said, “Pastor, I will.” Then another one stood up and said, “I will.” And another one stood up and said, “I will.” A year later, 36 kids were in our church because of Stand-Up Sunday. [Applause] 14:00 Dennis: That's cool. [Applause] Just real quickly—because there's one more of the six that you engrafted into your family that I want you to talk about—you're on a mission now about the entire state of Texas. Share just a quick—if you can—about how you're embodying the ministry of reconciliation there. Aaron: Well, the purifying part of James 1:27—that happened to Mary and I—is that we wanted to make sure that the body of Christ—across racial lines / across denominational lines—understand that the only way that we're going to really understand, as a body of Christ, and heal our nation, and our children, and broken families is reconciliation and restoration. 15:00 The church has been absent with foster care and adoption. They've been absent with racial reconciliation / family reconciliation. It's time for the church to stand up and say: “We are the voice. We have the ministry of reconciliation. And we're for restoring families.” [Applause] Dennis: You and I could fight for the soapbox, at this point, because I think this is a huge opportunity for the church. You are the church—we can make a difference in our individual communities. I want you to introduce us to a young man who you engrafted in—one of the six foster care boys that you cared for. Tell us about Diego. Aaron: Well, Diego, even when we—they would be upstairs at our house, and they would be [makes noises] doing all that kind of stuff. [Laughter] Dennis: Whoa, whoa, what was that? Aaron: [Makes noises again] “What's that?” That was what they were doing when they didn't have all the machines and all the stuff that made the sounds—they were rapping. 16:00 Dennis: Okay. Aaron: Diego would try to come up with lines and lyrics and all that kind of stuff. So, he started rapping back then. Diego was at one of our meetings—that we were having across the state—and I had never told because I didn't want our guys to be put on front street about an incident that happened. Mark had a candle in the window—wind blew in, caught the curtain, went up the wall, and our house burned down. We were having a meeting, like this, and telling folks that: “You need to step up. You need to become foster parents, and you need to adopt.” Then, Diego stands up and says, “We burnt the house down.” [Laughter] Dennis: Great advertisement for foster care; huh? Aaron: Yes! [Laughter] But Diego went on to say—he said, “I knew that my mom”—and he called me Pop—“and my dad, Pop, really loved us unconditionally the next morning after the fire.” 17:00 Well, the boys, the next morning, didn't want to go to school. I said, “What's going on?” They said this, “We do not want to go to school and see PS [Protective Services] come and pick us up at school and embarrass us.” He told the story: “I knew that Mom and Dad loved me because [emotion in voice] we have been moved from place to place for stuff less than that. We knew they loved us.” That's Diego. Bob: Hey, Pop, we've got a little surprise for you. Dennis: There's something the audience knows that you don't. [Diego walks out] Aaron: Oh! [Applause] My goodness! Diego: Love you, Pop. Aaron: I've been dreaming about this. [Applause] Bob: Diego, have a seat. Dennis: Diego, have a seat right here. Bob: We thought this young arsonist ought to come out [Laughter] and—tell these folks that morning when Pop said to you, “It is okay.” 18:00 Diego: Well, like he explained in the story—when we did burn the house down, [Laughter] we burned the house down! [Laughter] Honestly, man, we thought we were headed somewhere else. We thought we were going to another foster home or somewhere else. Man, when I tell you this—this man, after the house burned down—instead of coming to us, and fussing at us and stuff, he took us—the only place open was Walmart®—he just took us to Walmart—bought us some clothes to go to school the next day. So, we went to school. After school, we worked out. We didn't want to get back home because we knew that—hey, we were going somewhere else! The next thing you knew—we were going to a different—of course, your mom's house—moving us into your mom's house and like we were there. 19:00 He was like: “Y'all are my boys. Y'all are engrafted in. There isn't anything you can do to separate basically my love for you.” [Applause] Just being six boys that never had the type of love that [he] and Momma showed us—that love—that was just so awesome. It transformed our life, man. It really changed our destiny and the things that we are doing in life now. [Applause] Bob: You probably don't know this; but Dennis has a favorite assignment that he likes to give to folks, like you, that I think you can probably improv this on the spot. Do you [Dennis] want to give him the assignment? Dennis: Yes. You just heard him, without addressing you, break down, weeping about his love for you, and how proud he is of you, and the privilege of loving you. You've got him, face to face. You've got a chance to give him a tribute. Would you like to do it? 20:00 Diego: Yes. I'll give him a little something-something. [Laughter] I'll give him a little something-something. So, of course, y'all know about “engrafted” and I heard—I think you said something about your engrafted son—I was listening in the back. This man—when we first came to his house, he said, “You are not foster children.” He said, “You are engrafted into my home.” He said, “I'm your Pop and everything that belongs to me, it now belongs to you.” We took advantage of it, too, [Laughter] because we were engrafted in. He said: “The same way with the Kingdom—now, you're engrafted into the Kingdom of God. Everything that belongs to God now belongs to you, Diego.” Of course, I'm a gospel artist—I do gospel rap. I wrote a song called—I entitled my album Engrafted. It just reflects the love that he showed us and the love that God is showing me now. So, man, thank you Pops. I just love you! 21:00 [Studio] Bob: Well, we have had the opportunity today to hear a conversation that took place at the recent Christian Alliance for Orphans' Summit that was held in Nashville, Tennessee. For those of you who would be interested in seeing Diego Fuller do a rap song called Engrafted, we've got a link on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to the music video that he has put together. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper left-hand corner of the screen that says, “GO DEEPER.” You will see information about the brand-new Engrafted music video from Diego Fuller. There's also information, online, about the Christian Alliance for Orphans. If you'd like to find out more about their plans for next year's summit, follow the link on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to the Christian Alliance for Orphans website. We also have resources available for those of you who are considering being foster parents or adoptive parents. 22:00 Look for the resources we have available when you go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link that says, “GO DEEPER.” Maybe you're not considering adoption or foster care but you still have a heart for helping orphans in our world, we have information about different ways that individuals and churches can be involved in helping address the needs of orphans, all around the globe. Again, you‘ll find all of this when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link in the upper left-hand corner of the screen that says, “GO DEEPER.” Now, the month of August is a significant month for us, here at FamilyLife. It's actually the end of the year for us. We begin our fiscal year September 1st. So, we're about to close the books on fiscal 2015 and start a new year, fiscal 2016, in September. 23:00 The reason I mention that is because, when you get near the end of the fiscal year, one of the things you're always wondering is: “Will we have the money necessary to cover the budgeted expenses of this ministry?” So, we're asking you to consider making a yearend financial gift during the month of August to help us finish out our fiscal year in a healthy spot. That's easy enough to do. You can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link in the upper right-hand corner of our screen that says, “I CARE.” Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—make your donation over the phone. Or you can mail a donation to us at FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. By the way, when you make a donation right now, we'd like to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a book from Dennis and Barbara Rainey called Two Hearts Praying as One. 24:00 If you are making your first donation in 2015, in addition to the book, we'd like to add a prayer card that will help you know how to pray for one another in your family, especially when you're going through very difficult times, as a family. Again, all of that comes with our thanks for your support of this ministry. Tomorrow, we're going to talk about heading back to school. Barbara Rainey is going to be joining us tomorrow. We'll tackle some of the issues that families face as they get ready to head back to school. Hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2015 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Daring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis Majors

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2020 27:40

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. God Shows Up Guest: Katie Davis Majors From the series: Daring to Hope (Day 2 of 3) Bob: Katie Davis Majors says there are certain things that adoptive parents understand that bio parents just can't fully appreciate. Katie: What better way to clearly understand God's heart for us than to bring a child, who is not biologically related to you, into your home and call them your own and believe that they're your own? I now have adopted children and a biological child. I can say, with certainty, that my love for them is the same. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, December 19th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. There's a lot we can learn, as followers of Jesus, when we go near the orphan or those in need. We'll hear more about that today from Katie Davis Majors. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I was coming back from a trip recently—I was grousing about the poor condition of the airplane I was on. It was an older plane—seats were kind of hard and, you know, I was cramped up. I went on Twitter® and I just—[Laughter] Dennis: Oh, you belly-ached on— Katie: —to the whole world! Barbara: Oh! My goodness! Bob: —belly-ached to the particular airline in question. Dennis: Oh, really? Bob: I called them out and said, “It's time to upgrade your planes.” A friend of mine “tweeted” back at me and he said, “You need to fly to better destinations.” I “tweeted” back to him—I said, “There's no better destination than home.” Dennis: Ooh! Bob: Yes. Dennis: There you go! Bob: Yes; “Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home”; right? Dennis: Well, I have to ask this; because she was snickering as you were telling that story. It's like you don't have any idea about the condition— Bob: —what a bad airline is? [Laughter] Dennis: Yes. Katie Davis Majors joins us on the broadcast. Katie lives in Uganda. 2:00 Can you tell us a story of a flight on an airplane in Uganda? Barbara: Or even a road, maybe. Driving a car down a road is probably just as bad. Dennis: Oh, exactly. Katie: Yes; the only time that I get in an airplane in Uganda would be to fly overseas, so then the airplane isn't terrible; but the condition of the roads is not great. Dennis: Well, I think there's no question that we're spoiled, here, in America with all of our services. Bob: I think you're right. Dennis: Katie is the author of a new book called Daring to Hope: Finding God's Goodness in the Broken and the Beautiful. She is a mom to 14; a wife to 1, Benji, which is a great story in and of itself; and they've had a little boy of their own named Noah. This is a book about, really, finding God through the interruptions of life, what we would call an interruption. Bob was interrupted by the seat in his airplane. You were interrupted, one day, by a guy, who was on your doorstep, by the name of Mack. 3:00 You generally have taken care of girls, but this was a guy who needed help. Katie: Right; yes. Mack was brought to me from one of the communities that we work in, by a social worker on our staff. She had found him, and he had been severely burned. His leg—you could almost see the bone, it had been burned so badly and so deeply. You know, I thought I knew Mack. He was the village alcoholic. He was the guy who was getting in my way on my way to Bible study—he was the guy who was yelling profanities, and I would cover my children's ears. I had shrugged him off as an annoyance—as that kind of person. So, when she showed up with him—my sweet social worker, Christine—I kind of shook my head at her; but he was badly hurt, so we proceeded to three different hospitals. We were told all three times that his leg would have to be amputated, because it was so badly injured. 4:00 The hospitals in Uganda, where we live, are pretty understaffed and very under-resourced. The doctor explained to me that his leg did have a chance if somebody could bandage it and dress it every single day; but he said, “My nursing staff here, with this many patients, we don't have enough gauze, we don't have strong enough antibiotics; we won't be able to do this every day. If you'd like, I can show you how and you can do it at home.” I said, “Okay,” which is funny to me now. You know, sometimes, you wonder, “Okay; God, what?”—how did I…” / “I did?” Barbara: “How did that come out of my mouth?” [Laughter] Katie: I said, “That was fine”; but I did. We've been privileged, over the last many years, the house that we live in has a really simple guesthouse in the back—it's really just a line of small rooms. So, we do have a place where it is safe to let other people live. They're not inside our home, and so— 5:00 Dennis: Yes; that's one of my first thoughts: “What's a guy like this going to do in a house with so many young ladies?” Katie: Right. So that's why I felt safe about the fact that we had some good separation between our house and the guest home; and I have people like social workers on my staff who are able to come and help out with this sort of thing. But he stayed—he wasn't actually allowed to come up to the main house—so I would go back there on the porch of his room every day and dress his wound. Slowly, he began to sober up; and this really gentle, genuine side of him came out. He began to tell me his story of all the tragic things that happened in his life that had led him to this point. God really just gave me such a compassion for him. We don't get to our brokenness just because—you know, really terrible things had happened to him that had led him to this place. As I changed his wound each day for almost an entire year—it was about ten months / maybe closer to eleven that I was changing that dressing. 6:00 Every day, for about an hour, he would tell me little pieces of his story. I would share with him little pieces of the gospel and how I really believed that, not only was God going to make his leg whole, but God was going to make all of us whole. We had just endured some loss in our family—we had lost a foster daughter that had lived with us for a long time. I really think, as I watched Mack's leg heal, that God was doing a lot of healing in my heart. As I testified to Mack who I had known Jesus to be, God was really having me say some of those things to remind myself of what I believed. Dennis: So, how could you do that? I mean, seriously—bring a total stranger in there? What was the motivation? What was the heart that caused you to care for that guy for 12 months? Katie: It wasn't—I mean, it the first time we had had a stranger in dire need show up and need a place to stay. 7:00 For Mack, I think, I was looking for healing / I was looking for redemption. I had not seen a happy ending in my family's story recently as we had lost of our daughters to the foster care system. I wanted to believe that God would heal this wound, and I wanted to watch it happen. Through that, God did a lot of healing in my own life. He definitely healed Mack's leg. A year later, Mack was up walking around the yard, raking our leaves for us / taking out our trash, just like a dependable, fun uncle for the kids. He had gotten a job at a local dentist—he's a dental assistant now. And actually, my friend Benji—who was just a friend, at the time, and was doing men's ministry in the area—I had reached out to him and said: “Hey, I don't usually have guys around, but there's this man that's ended up living in our guest house. He needs a man to be discipling him. Would you be willing to come do that?” 8:00 Benji began meeting with him multiple times a week for several hours, just studying the Word together. About a year-and-a-half after Mack had moved in with us, he put his trust in Jesus. He walked into my kitchen and he said, “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God,” and then he turned around and walked out. I stood in the kitchen and just cried, and yelled, and, I mean, was so excited. Bob: You know, Katie, I have a picture in my head of the gospel being proclaimed in—I don't know if it's in Uganda, but in parts of Africa—sadly, sometimes a shallow, consumeristic gospel, making promises and then shallow conversions that are momentary. It's like: “We'll try this witch doctor, because the last one wasn't so good.” Talk a little bit about the ministry of the gospel that you're involved with and what you're trying to do to counteract what's going on in lots of places in Africa. 9:00 Katie: You're absolutely right. We see a lot of that—the shallow conversion—everybody's looking for an answer; right?—so: “I might as well try this out. These people say that it can work.” It's difficult, too, to be white in an African country and proclaiming the gospel; because you want people to come to the gospel for the gospel, not because of something that they think you might offer them. So, you know, we've seen two things in ministry that we are both very passionate about—and that Amazima, as a whole, is very passionate about—one is just relational ministry / one on one over a very long period of time, discipleship through studying Scripture together. Another is equipping locals. We have some ex-patriot staff, but we have mostly Ugandan staff. The goal of the ex-patriot staff is really just to equip the Ugandan staff with good, deep theology and the true Word of God so that the Ugandan staff members can be the ones discipling, especially the children in our program. 10:00 All of the families and children in our programs are assigned a mentor, who's a social worker; and they're all Ugandan. So, as an ex-patriot, we are really kind of behind the scenes, trying to encourage these Ugandan leaders to be the people sharing the gospel; because I feel like it's [better] received. I say this a lot: “You can pour all the money, and all the resources, and build all the buildings and have all the projects; but in ten years in Uganda, the stories where I see true life change are people who have had a one-on-one relationship with someone who is pointing them to Christ. I think relational ministry is where it's at. Bob: What you're talking about—I remember, a few years ago, reading the book, When Helping Hurts, which I know you've read. Katie: Yes. 11:00 Bob: That's a part of the thesis. We have—in this country, we have a desire to want to help; and yet, we can throw a lot of resources at stuff that's actually counter-productive. Katie: Yes; and let's be serious—helping feels good. You know, it's not just about the person I'm helping; it fills me up as well. I believe that God intended it that way—that giving would be joyful and that acts of mercy would be done cheerfully—but I also think we need to walk with wisdom in that and how to best steward the gospel to a different people. Dennis: Katie, I know you believe this; but one of the things Barbara and I have really attempted to champion is encouraging believers / followers of Christ to get involved in the foster care system of our nation. You've been deeply involved in foster care; and to go back to what Bob said earlier—if you want to help someone, there is a natural way, right now, because there are almost 500,000 children in America—you don't have to go to Uganda to find one of them. 12:00 Katie: Yes; yes; right. Dennis: Many of them are going to age out of the system without a parent. Barbara, we just had a delightful dinner with a man who has a passion for this as well. Barbara: We did. We had dinner a couple of weeks ago with a pastor whose name is Bishop Martin. He and his wife have adopted a number of young men and women out of the foster care system. He is passionate about us doing that, as a body of Christ, in America. In fact, our oldest daughter has been involved in fostering children for years, and they've had—I don't know how many—23/25 children through their house, and two of them they ended up adopting. It has really opened our eyes. We adopted too—one of our six is adopted—but we didn't do foster care. We have such a passion to see families welcome these children. The complaint that our daughter, Ashley, hears all the time—and I hear it as well—is: “That would be too hard, and it would hurt too much to give them up.” 13:00 I think this book that you've written will really help address that, because I think we shy away because of the pain of entering into someone's life. But when we do back off from entering into someone's life—whether it's a foster child or whether it's helping someone like you did [for] Mack—we don't realize that we're cutting ourselves off from knowing God in a way that we would not apart from that experience. I love it that you're doing foster care in Uganda, and bringing children into your home, and writing about it so that maybe more American families will address the need that's right under our noses in our own backyards; because there are so many children who need to be touched—who need to be loved / who need to understand what a relationship is like. They've been shuttled around for years, and it's a ripe opportunity that God has in front of us. I hope people will consider it. Katie: I agree. What a tangible way to get involved, right where you are, in your own community. It's certainly as much of a need, here, in the States as it is in Uganda. 14:00 There are children hurting world-over, and so that's one of the things that I really always hope to encourage people in—that you don't have to move to Uganda / you don't have to move anywhere—there are people in need right in front of you. Barbara: Exactly; right; but you do need to open your heart. Katie: Yes. Barbara: And that, I think, is what most people are afraid of—is opening their heart—because they know that there might be some pain involved. We're so pain-adverse and we're so addicted to comfort that it keeps us from opening our hearts and then, consequently, experiencing God in a way that we wouldn't have otherwise. Dennis: Katie, I've said, for years, that: “When you go near the orphan, you go near the heart of God.” Katie: Yes. Dennis: How have you experienced that personally?—because you've adopted 13 Ugandan young ladies. Katie: Well, what better way to clearly understand God's heart for us than to bring a child, who is not biologically related to you, into your home and call them your own and believe that they're your own? 15:00 I now have adopted children and a biological child. I can say, with certainty, that my love for them is the same. Because I know that to be true, I can believe God when He says that, through Jesus Christ, I am adopted as His son or daughter, just as Christ is His Son. I mean, really, it's unfathomable; isn't it?—but I believe it's such a clear picture. I desire the world for my adopted daughters, and I believe that that's God's heart towards us—this Father heart—and I don't think I would be able to so clearly understand it had I not experienced the love that I have for my children. Bob: Katie, you've been in Uganda for a decade. Katie: Yes. Bob: You left Nashville to go there as somebody who knew and loved Jesus. 16:00 How is your understanding of what the gospel is different, today, than it was when you got on the plane and said, “I'm going to Uganda”? Katie: It's very different. I think my faith, when I set out—as an 18-year-old, with my suitcase full of construction paper, and crayons, and my heart that was going to change the world for the gospel of Christ—you know, I think my faith was a bit naïve. Definitely— Dennis: You think?—at 18? [Laughter] Katie: Yes. Dennis: I just want to make sure our listeners heard what you just said. Katie: I'm quite sure. [Laughter] Bob: A bit—a bit naïve. Dennis: A bit! I mean, your parents had to let you go, for goodness sakes, at the age of 18, to Uganda. Katie: They did; yes. Dennis: They had to wonder if you were a bit off at that point; right? Katie: Right! Yes; I think I was very optimistic as well. I think I saw God's goodness to be when things turned out well, or when my prayers were answered, or when things were going my way—then I would say, “Oh, see, God blessed us.” 17:00 And I really—I mean, I do believe that the greatest gift God gives us is Himself / salvation and eternal life with Him—that's what He wants to give us. There's no material thing / there's no earthly blessing—it's Him. I have seen that God has given me more and more of Himself even in the midst of unimaginable hardship. Bob: When you share the gospel today with people in Uganda, how is it different than when you shared the gospel a decade ago? Katie: I mean, I think I definitely am more quick to present the fact that belief in Jesus does not mean that things are going to go well; and belief in Jesus does not mean that your garden is going to grow or that you're not going to live in a dirt house anymore; but belief in Jesus means that you will have someone with you through those circumstances and that those circumstances will just be so temporary in light of eternity. 18:00 There is nothing here that we're putting our hope in. Belief in the gospel doesn't really mean that we have hope in this world now; it means that we have hope for eternity spent with God. Dennis: And in the midst of life, you're going to have these messes that you're talking about—that hurt / that disappoint—because people will disappoint you. Katie: Yes. Dennis: But what you're saying and what you're reminding us of is that God shows up and He desires to be our refuge. One of the things I found, as I was reading your book, was you were really counseling your own soul. As you stood there in your kitchen—peeling mounds of potatoes, cleaning dishes, cleaning up after the girls—but you were counseling your soul with the Psalms / with the Scripture so that you were responding the way God wanted you to respond, realizing He was there with you. Katie: I love the Psalms because they're so honest. 19:00 I think we're, sometimes, conditioned to think that we can't come to God and tell Him, “I feel so disappointed,” or “I feel so angry”; right? We think we're only supposed to say, “Okay; I'm upset with God, but let me find something that I can thank Him for or something good”; but we see in the Psalms the psalmist cries out to God. He tells Him how he feels. When I approached God in that way, I felt that God did not become angry with me back. You know, maybe when you approach a human with anger, you expect they're going to yell back at you; right? But God didn't feel angry. He understood what I felt / He already knew that I felt that way, and He was able to comfort me all the more when I was honest with Him. Dennis: Well, as I was reading your book, I was reflecting back on a psalm—Psalm 43—especially one verse that has been meaningful to me recently. Maybe it will be meaningful to a listener or two. 20:00 It reads, “Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you in turmoil within me?” That's honesty, right there—that's admitting where you are. It goes on to say, “Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him, my salvation and my God.” God desires to be our refuge. Sometimes, He has to knock the props out from under us, where we're looking for encouragement / where we're looking, as you talk about, Katie, in your book, Daring to Hope, where we're hoping for a good ending to the story, and we don't get that good ending. What God's doing is—He's driving us to Himself. So, if you want to counsel your soul, take a look at all five verses of chapter 43 of the Psalms. 21:00 Bob: And I think for folks to read Katie's book and be reminded of the things she has learned, caring for adopting kids, living in Uganda—I think there's a lot of encouragement / a lot of hope in this book. The book is called Daring to Hope: Finding God's Goodness in the Broken and the Beautiful. We have copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website—FamilyLifeToday.com—the phone number: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” I was with one of our listeners, recently, who said, “I know when FamilyLife Today went on the air.” He said, “It was 25 years ago; and the reason I know that is because that's when we started having children, right about the same time that FamilyLife Today began as a radio broadcast.” And he said, “All along the journey, I have leaned into you guys for counsel, for wisdom, for help, for advice on how we can raise our kids.” 22:00 And he smiled and he said, “And you know, they've turned out okay.” As you know, Dennis, there's no guarantee that kids turn out okay, even when Mom and Dad do the best they know how to do; but it is encouraging to hear from moms and dads / from husbands and wives who tell us, repeatedly, that this program has made a difference in their understanding of marriage and family and in how they're living it out. I wish those of you who support FamilyLife Today—both as Legacy Partners and those of you who will give an occasional donation to support this ministry—I wish you could hear some of these testimonies that we get a chance to hear. These are the people you're supporting when you support this broadcast. You're helping to turn around legacies / you're helping to point families in new directions, and we're grateful for your partnership with us. 23:00 Here, at yearend, we have a unique opportunity for your giving to go farther. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here again today with an update on FamilyLife's matching-gift fund. Hi, Michelle! Michelle: Hi Bob, yes I reported yesterday how the fund might be doubling? Well the matching fund is 4.3 million dollars! …which is fantastic! But what has to happen next is up to our listeners, because without you, that 4.3 million dollar figure is just a number. So…please pray about your part in fulfilling the match… ‘cause right now we're at seven hundred twenty nine thousand dollars, and that's quite a gap to fill in just a couple of weeks… so please keep praying, keep giving and to God be the glory! Bob: And we've tried to make it as easy as possible for you to make a yearend contribution to FamilyLife Today. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. 24:00 Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we want to find out how Katie Davis became Katie Davis Majors and hear about the young man who pursued her in Uganda and ultimately got her to say, “Yes,” to his proposal. I hope you can tune in for that story. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria Butterfield

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 26:14

Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 2) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria ButterfieldFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. What Is Truth? Guest: Rosaria ButterfieldFrom the series: Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Day 3 of 3) Bob: After meeting a number of times with a local Presbyterian pastor, Rosaria Butterfield—a college professor, a committed feminist, a lesbian—remembers the morning that everything changed for her. Rosaria: One day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God. It was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God's Word. It was very powerful. The prayer that came out—after that—which really surprised me, “Lord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, September 18th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear today how God answered Rosaria Butterfield's prayer. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. There is a passage in a book I read years ago called A Severe Mercy. The author is a man named Sheldon Vanauken, and he was a skeptic at Oxford University. He started writing letters to one of his professors, C.S. Lewis, asking him questions all about Christianity. He'd get a letter written, and Lewis would respond back to him with an answer. He'd write a new letter and get an answer back. He'd finally written a letter to Lewis one time. The answer that came back was: “I've decided not to answer your questions anymore.” He said: “It's—I'm pretty well convinced that The Hound of Heaven is after you, and it's just a matter of time.” [Laughter] I remember reading that—and I remember Vanauken reading and going—he was a little put off; but then, he got a little worried that, maybe, in fact, it was just a matter of time. [Laughter] And I have to wonder if our guest, this week, has—didn't have something of that same experience in her life. Dennis: Yes. And I've been chased down by The Hound of Heaven, as well. It's good that He's on our trail. Rosaria: Amen. Amen. Dennis: I agree with you. Rosaria Butterfield joins us, again, on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back. Rosaria: Thank you very much. Dennis: She has written a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. How do you summarize, Bob, what we've talked about— Bob: This week? Dennis: —this week. I mean, Professor of English at Syracuse University and was a part of the women's studies. You were a teacher in the queer studies program. You were a lesbian—had a live-in lover that you were with for a number of years. In the process, she wrote a letter, criticizing a group that came to the Carrier Dome, there at Syracuse University—a group called Promise Keepers. A pastor wrote you back. Long story made short—instead of condemning you, he just started asking you questions that caused you to ponder and reflect, spiritually. And The Hound of Heaven began to get on your trail. Bob: And you found yourself wrestling with whether the Bible is true—whether it's authoritative— Rosaria: That's right. That's right. Bob: —whether your life had to come under the authority of the Scriptures and of the God of the Scriptures. Rosaria: That's right. Bob: But in your case, if you are going to believe this— Rosaria: Right. Oh, yes, yes. Bob: —and if you are going to act like you believe this, it's revolutionary. It's going to leave you with a lot of your old friends who don't want to talk to you anymore and a lot of new friends that you don't know if you want to hang around with. Rosaria: Yes, that's very well-put; right. And so, I did. One day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God, and— Dennis: And when you said you came to meet God, you showed up to surrender. Rosaria: Well, not at first. I mean, I'd love to say that! You see, you make me look good; but that's not true. At first, I was just really curious about sort of the: “What's the next step? Okay, I've read the Bible, now, more than once; and I've studied it. Now, what? Okay, we you go to church. Let's find out what's going on there.” It was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God's Word. It was very powerful. Then, the prayer that came out after that—which really surprised me. It had nothing to do with my sexuality. It had everything to do with my pride and my gender, “Lord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?” It was really not much of a prayer. It was more of a question, but God answered that question because God can do anything! Right?— you know, “Can these dry bones rise?”—right? Not by their own will—they cannot. Bob: Those two questions, as you sat listening to God's Word being preached—and this is over a period of— Rosaria: Years. Bob: —of years. Rosaria: Of years. Bob: But those two questions kept haunting you to a point where you finally— Rosaria: Right, I did. Bob: —had to throw in the flag and say, “Okay.” Rosaria: “Okay, Lord, I'm yours. I'm yours.” Bob: Tell us about that day. Rosaria: In some ways, it was very anticlimactic because of all the things that had preceded it. I was still kicking up a bit of a fit about: “Oh, poor me. I have to give up so much.” Ken said to me once: “Well, you've got friends in this church. Why don't you ask them what they had to give up to be a Christian?” I thought “Well, okay. Have at it!” I learned the most amazing things. I heard from women who had to bury their children, but not their faith. I heard about people who were struggling with all kinds of other sexual issues—pornography addiction. I mean, it was just everywhere. Everybody was a mess but not really. That was really striking to me. It seemed to me that, maybe, original sin is a comforting idea. See, I started out believing that everybody was good; but that's a hard world view to keep pumping up. But I started to think about it: “Well, what if we were all born this way? Maybe, that's a comforting thing.” Bob: Born in sin. Rosaria: Born in sin—that weighed differently. Everybody has something that's going to take them by the neck. I think that was in the context that I really learned the first rule of repentance. Repentance is not some kind of one-time pledge you do at the moment of conversion. Repentance is a daily posture of the Christian—daily, hourly, minute-by-minute. There is no shame in repentance. It is the kindness of God—it says in the book of Romans—that leads us to repentance. All repentance does—I've figured out—it's really simple! It just proves that God was right all along! That's not new information! Dennis: And that we were broken— Rosaria: And that we were broken. Dennis: —and needed a Redeemer. Rosaria: That's right. And there are a million ways to be broken. Dennis: Oh, yes. Rosaria: But you know what? That's not the point. Bob: When you surrendered, you started on a new path that was very different than the path that you'd been on. Rosaria: It was. It was. Dennis: And she said she lost everything except her dog. Bob: Yes. I mean— Rosaria: He's a good dog, too. [Laughter] Bob: It was the end of your relationship with— Rosaria: Sure, of course. Bob: —your lesbian lover, but it was the beginning of the end of your time at Syracuse. Rosaria: It was. I did not lose my job. I should say that. It's not that I—I don't want to make this out to be that I was victim—but one of the things that I realized, in my repentance—and you know what? I realize this every day, in repentance: “Jesus, it was You I was persecuting the whole time.” So, that puts a certain caution on a person; right? I wasn't really sure what God would have me do. So, it was the end of my time at Syracuse; but at the time, I didn't know it was the end of my time at Syracuse. What it was—was it, at the beginning of my research leave—my post-tenured research leave—and I wanted to study Christian education. I thought: “Okay, Lord, I'm a Christian. Where does a Christian profess—at a secular university or at a Christian college?” So, a very good friend of mine, who is now the President of Geneva College—he was faculty member at Syracuse and Ken Smith's son. His name is also Ken Smith—just to further confuse everyone who is listening. He was able to get me an adjunct position at Geneva College. Then, I also had a teaching position at the Center for Urban Biblical Ministry in Pittsburgh. I pieced together a research program. It was in that context that I met Kent Butterfield, who is now my husband. So, I really never did go back to Syracuse; but that was totally shocking to me. Bob: Did everybody at Geneva College know who was coming to town when you showed up? Rosaria: You know they did, but they were okay with it. Bob: They knew that— Rosaria: They were okay with it. Bob: —the post-feminist, post-lesbian— Rosaria: They sure— Bob: —convert was coming to town. Rosaria: That's right. That's right. Bob: And tell us—because you don't really go into a whole lot of detail about the romance between you and your husband, in the book. Rosaria: I will tell you this—that when you are a sexually-broken person, the most terrifying idea is that you would, then, be a married woman because the fear that I had was that I would pollute or break— Bob: You'd mess everything up. Rosaria: —I'd mess everything up. So, one of the most amazing gifts, in my life, has been Kent and his daily, biblical ministry that repentance of sin is one thing—it's really important! We do it all the time. It's our posture. Dennis: Right. Rosaria: Healing—sexual healing is a separate but related experience. It is fully by the stripes of Christ that we are healed—that when you are a sexually-broken person, your sexuality runs a little bit like water in a groove on a path. If you walk a path over and over again, that path becomes pretty deep. So, when the water floods, it has no place to go but make it almost a river, even. I'm amazed that, over the years, as we meditate and appeal to Christ's balm—because He took those stripes—those grooves in our path get filled up. What they get filled up by is the means of grace. You know, it's intended—God intends to heal us. He intends for His people to be healed. Now, I want to be careful about how I say this. I did not say that He intends for all people who struggle with same-sex attraction to become heterosexual. That is not what I said, and that does not happen. What—I mean, it happens sometimes; but what we know is that we relinquish our life to God, and He gives back what He will. But those grooves that are worn down from sexual sin—and that includes sexual sin of the mind and the emotions—although I will say that acting on your sexual sin makes those grooves deep and dirty really fast much more so. But the layers—the layers that God established to fill that hole, through the means of grace, is a powerful thing. So, by God's grace, I married a Christian! I married someone who became a Christian at the age of 17. He was and has been a godly man for many, many more years than I certainly have been a godly woman. So, he could always—and does. I always tell people that I married a pastor because I need daily, biblical counsel; right? And that's true. But he knows that it's not—Kent is not healing me—and it's not marriage, per se, that's healing me. It's the means of grace. It's Bible reading and Psalm singing. It's the sacraments. It's the fellowship of the saints. And of course, Christ was leading the whole time because sexual sin is predatory. We see that, very early, in the Bible when God says to Cain, “Sin is lurking at your door.” It's Genesis 4: “Its desire is for you, but you will have mastery over it.” I think, too often, people think that: “Oh, you are struggling with pornography. Well, hey, let's just get you married;” right? “Let's find a ‘sanctified outlet' for your sexual desire”—not getting the fact that a predatory sexuality is a totally different desire. So, when I started to examine, “Well, what is the root of my homosexuality?” I did not come up with homosexuality. In the same way, when I go to my garden and I want to know the root of my weeds, I don't come up with the yellow dandelion head. When I really probed what was at the root of my homosexuality, it was pride. It was pride in wanting to invent myself on my own terms. When I married Kent, I became a submitted wife. There's not a lot of pride—not in that—nor is there humiliation in that—but there's a sense of connection and a puzzle piece, now, that suddenly finds its home. Dennis: And could I say it for you? Rosaria: Sure. Dennis: Because you were a feminist— Rosaria: Yes, I was. Dennis: —looking for completion, looking to be all that— Rosaria: That's right. Dennis: —you were made to be in that rightly-related relationship with your husband, both submitting to Jesus Christ— Rosaria: That's right. That's right. Dennis: —you found— Rosaria: That's right; absolutely. Dennis: —you found the completion you longed for, as a feminist. Rosaria: I did, and that really gets us to that question that we haven't really gotten to. And that's the question about: “What do we do now? What if gay marriage becomes normative?” Bob: We're heading in that direction. Dennis: We are; and my question to you is, “Coach us here and help us think, as followers of Christ.” Rosaria: We have to—we have to—we have to realize that well, first of all, we are all called to a sanctified sexuality. That includes our celibate, single members of our churches. They are not second-class citizens. It is shameful, on our part; and I would say it is part of the—perhaps, the potential homophobia of the church when we do that to people. So, I think we need to value a sanctified celibate singleness. But when we talk about marriage, between a man and a woman, we need to talk about it in biblical terms, not moral terms. We can't just say, “The Bible says, ‘Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.'” You know, all that does is take the door and take it off the hinges and then wonder why the door doesn't stand up. The hinge is the Bible; and there are a couple of things that we, as Christians, need to be able to articulately defend. One is that marriage is covenantal. It's a relationship that God establishes with us and guarantees by His Word. God does not make a covenant apart from the separate genders for marriage. So, it is covenantal. We also have to remember that the picture of marriage is Christ and the Church and that the completion factor—and it's the complement factor. It's C-O-M-P-L-E-M-E-N-T. It's not an “I”. We're not talking about trophy wives. We're talking about a man and a woman complementing—fitting together—in order to show the watching world a picture of Christ and the Church. We've likely not done that. Then, the other—and I know this is a controversial topic—not that we haven't talked about controversy, gentlemen. Bob: So, what's new; right? Dennis: Yes. Rosaria: So, what's new? But I think if you do not have historical Adam, if you do not have literal six-day creation, if you do not have Adam—made from the dust and then, Eve made from a rib of Adam—you have no biblical basis for a woman's submission to man. You have mutual submission. So, I think we've got to go back to the basics. I think we need to find a biblical defense for these things and I think that we need to stop fearing that people are going to call us stupid because that's what I did and look where I am; right? [Laughter] Dennis: Yes, and also, being afraid of being called a bigot as though you hate. Rosaria: Right—and we're getting there. We're getting there because I would absolutely say that to fail to defend homosexual marriage—that is the contemporary unforgiveable sin— Bob: It is. Rosaria: —in our culture. So, I think we are getting there; but again— Dennis: But we have to defend marriage with love. Rosaria: With love. So, that raises the question: “What do I do with my gay or lesbian daughter? And how do I interface with this person I love?” Let's just give a scenario. She was raised in the church. She made a profession of faith. “Now, she's lost to me. What do I do?” Those are really good questions. What you do is—you love your child. You love your child. Now, you do have to be careful, though, about this business about attending gay weddings. I mean, I think you can love someone without giving a false blessing because—think about it—you want to be there on the other side. You want to be able to be there, standing with a unified Christian witness; but you can still love. You can still enjoy your holidays together and be in each other's lives. Dennis: And they won't view it as a rejection that you didn't come to the wedding? Rosaria: Well, they may—they may—but we talked earlier about, “Where do you draw the line?” You know, you want to draw it carefully; and I can't tell you what to do. You know your family, and you know what to do. I'm just saying that because—“How do we defend marriage?” Well, one way that we defend marriage is to make sure that we are speaking in a unified voice about it. That's a hard one. I know. Dennis: It is a hard one—especially, if it was your daughter— Rosaria: Yes, absolutely! Absolutely, and so— Dennis: —marrying another woman and you drew the line and said, “Sweetheart, I want you to know I will love you to the end, but I will not bless this union because it doesn't represent what God commanded a man and a woman to merge together in a covenant with God.” Rosaria: Right. “But I'm not cutting you out.” Dennis: Yes. Rosaria: “I want you and your partner here for Christmas, and Thanksgiving, and”— Dennis: You know, there is a lot more we could talk about here; and Rosaria, I want to say, “Thanks for your book,”—how—this kind of sounds funny, coming from somebody who got a spanking in the eighth-grade English class—but how well-written it is and how entertaining—but also just allow us to peek into your life and to hear what transformation sounds like and what was going on in your soul, at the same time. There is a lot in this book that I'd recommend. I just want to say, “Thanks for being on our broadcast and hope you'll come back again someday.” Rosaria: Thank you. Bob: Well, I hope our listeners will get a copy and will read Rosaria's book. I think it's one of the best books I've read this year. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for a copy of the book, The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. You can order, online, if you'd like. Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us, toll-free, at 1-800-FL-TODAY, 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY”. Now, I want to say a special word of thanks to the folks who have made today's program possible—and that would be those of you who help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We are listener-supported. It's our Legacy Partners who provide monthly support for this ministry; and it is those of you, who get in touch with us from time to time, to make a donation. You folks provide the financial support we need to cover the cost of being on this local radio station and on our network of stations, all across the country. You defray the production and syndication costs for this program. And we're grateful; and we want to say, “Thank you,” for that. In fact, this month, if you are able to make a donation to help support the ministry, we would like to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a couple of resources. One is a CD that features a conversation with Joanne Kraft, where she talked about the radical sabbatical that she had for her family. They said, “No,” to all outside activities for a year just to bring some normalcy back into the family. Then, in addition to that, we'd like to send you Tim Kimmel's book, Little House on the Freeway. Again, we'll send both resources to you if you are able to support the ministry, this month, with a donation of $25 or more. You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button that says, “I CARE”, to make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone, and ask about the “Busyness Bundle”. We'll send out these resources, designed to help you get a grip on the speed of life at which you are travelling. You can also mail your donation to FamilyLife Today. Our mailing address is Box 7111, Little Rock, Arkansas. And our zip code is 72223. Be sure to ask for the “Busyness Bundle” when you send your donation. And we hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we are going to tackle the question: “Do Christians have it wrong with our view of human sexuality?” Is what the Bible teaches just some antiquated idea for a bygone generation or is it something that ought to govern our behavior today?” We'll talk more about that tomorrow, and I hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

An Untold Love Story (Part 2) - Ken and Joni Tada

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 28:33

An Untold Love Story (Part 1) - Ken and Joni TadaAn Untold Love Story (Part 2) - Ken and Joni TadaFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Sufficient Grace Guests: Ken and Joni Tada From the series: An Untold Love Story (Day 2 of 2) Bob: Joni Eareckson Tada remembers a time in her marriage to her husband Ken when both of them were starting to drift farther and farther apart. Joni: I was fearful that I was making Ken depressed. My disability was depressing my husband. So, I would be very careful to take care of as many routines as I could possibly do before he came home from school so that I would not have to walk on eggshells and ask him to do anything for me because I knew that asking too much of Ken would plummet him into depression. For a long time, it was this strange tap dance that we both played. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, May 3rd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear today what Joni and Ken Tada did when they realized they were drifting apart in marriage. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I've been thinking about—I have a son who just proposed to his girlfriend. They're going to get married soon. I was thinking, “If I could sit them down with anybody, for a little premarital counseling—the couple that could give them the benefits of great experience and theological understanding— Dennis: You really had thought of me. Bob: Ah-h-h. You were on the list. [Laughter] Dennis: I'm kidding you. I know who's in the studio, Bob. Bob: You were underneath our guests today. Dennis: Way underneath the guests. Bob: I just thought, “Would it be okay if we got some premarital counseling for John and Katie from our guests?” Just let them—they've written this book. Tell them about the book that they've written. Dennis: Well, this book is called Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. So they need to hear a love story—one that's gone 30 years, plus. Bob: And that has gone through some rocky times. Dennis: Some? Bob: Yes. Joni: A few. Dennis: A few, no doubt about it. Bob: I just thought, “I wonder what counsel they would give to a couple, just getting started, on the frontend of the journey?” Dennis: Well, let's ask them. Ken and Joni Eareckson Tada join us again on FamilyLife Today. Ken, Joni, welcome back. Joni: Absolutely. It's good to be back. Ken: Thanks. Dennis: I know Ken would like to teach your son how to fly— Joni: Fly fish. Dennis: —fly fish. I don't know if Ken ties the flies. Ken: Yes, but— Bob: Would that help his marriage if he learned how to fly fish? Ken: It could, but don't do it the first year. [Laughter] Joni: But you know what I had Ken's best man tell me on our wedding day? He drew me aside and whispered in my ear, “Let your husband keep his dreams.” I didn't know what he meant, at the time; but of course, this whole fly fishing thing—about which we joke—it's really important, I think, for guys to have that space—to have those times of connection with other men. Ken: And Joni's been my biggest supporter, during that—the whole time—not that I abuse it—but she knows that I need to have time with guys. Joni: Oh, yes! You know how you abuse it; don't you? Ken: How? Joni: We're driving down the freeway and he'll say: “Hey, there's a Jaguar that just drove by. Joni, can I have a Jaguar?” “No! Of course, not!” Then, of course, that sets me up for—“Oh, then, you'll give me the fishing reel.” [Laughter] Okay. I know what you're up to! Ken: It took 30 years—but you start high and you aim lower [Laughter]—and asking for a brand-new Jaguar convertible—obviously, I'm not going that direction—but a new fly rod—that would be kind of cool! Dennis: Yes, there you go. Let's go back to Bob's question here. Let's put it on the line, here. Let's go back to your honeymoon to talk about some of the most important lessons you started out your marriage learning. Ken: Well, the one lesson we learned is—I think Joni and I have said before—but we had friends who told us to go out and experiment. We decided, “No.”— Dennis: Move in with each other. Joni: Pretty much. Ken: Well, for the weekend. Joni: Just to try it out for the weekend—for a couple of weekends. Dennis: And the reason is— Ken: Because you know, with a disability, it was a little bit different than perhaps with an able-bodied person. Joni: Expediency. Ken: And just to see whether or not it would fit. Joni: If this was going to work. Bob: See, I hear that story. I just imagine, in my head, you guys going off for a weekend and then you going, “Oh, I guess it's not going to work.” “What? Hello!” Ken: Where's the commitment? Bob: Yes. How do you break that news to somebody, “I'm out of here because this part doesn't work.” Well guess what? You may have seasons where that part of your relationship doesn't work— Ken: Exactly. Joni: Exactly. Bob: —and you'd better figure out how to love one another in the midst of those seasons! Joni: Absolutely, which is why—even before we got engaged and even during our engagement—there was no experimenting. There was no testing: “Let's try this out. How's this going to fly?” We went into our marriage, with our conscience tender and intact, with no violation of our convictions. As Ken has often said, “Of course, it made our honeymoon a little like handicap-awareness week; [Laughter] but that was okay.” Dennis: Well, let's talk about that for a second—what that was like—because you write about it in your book. I wouldn't ask this question if you hadn't put this in print; alright? Ken: Oh, there's nothing we wouldn't discuss. I think we're pretty well open with everything. Joni: I put it delicately in print, though, Dennis—as delicately as I could. Bob: And we can stay delicate right here. [Laughter] Dennis: That's the truth, but you're a quadriplegic—for those who don't know your story. You had an accident when you were 17 years old. You had a great fear, going into this marriage, that he was going to find out what it meant to care for someone who was so helpless. Joni: Okay, well let's talk about the brass tacks. Ken and I went off on our honeymoon. We took two friends—two girlfriends of mine—who stayed at a different hotel, down the beach—but they would come up during the mornings and evenings and kind of like educate Ken on my routines—not to throw everything at him at once—but just to kind of get his feet wet: “This is what it means for Joni to get up in the morning: bed, bath, exercising her legs, and then those toileting routines.” Well, I had to do a particular toileting routine in the evening. I don't know how to say this. Ken had to help carry me to the bathroom. I didn't make it. When that happened—it's funny—I choke up, talking about it now, 30 years later. Yet, it's so long ago and far away—but I was the young girl. I wanted everything to be perfect. I wanted my husband to have great illusions of me and: “This is going to be wonderful! Everything is so romantic!” Yet, I remember that first night—lying in bed after the lights were out and all was quiet. I fought back the tears: “Oh, God! This man—You are going to have to give him grace. You're just going to have to. You have to give him grace because I don't know that even I have the grace. But help him through this, Lord. You can do this! Help him through this!” It was a desperate cry of a very young bride, but I'm so glad God answered because things did not get easier in our ensuing life together. There were even greater challenges; but at every turn, I saw God's grace show up in my husband's life. That was huge, and that's growth. Dennis: There are times, in every marriage, after the honeymoon—in fact, there are seasons that occur where you move into a bit of a valley. Obviously, your marriage started in one and has continued on in one—but you move into something where there is—you describe in your book as “negotiated spaces” and “demilitarized zones” in your relationship. You guys had a plateau. You kind of had the “Cease fire”— Joni: Yes. Ken: I think it was those middle years, where Joni was going to the ministry and I was teaching high school. Basically, we were living together but separate lives— parallel lives. Not that our marriage was bad—it's just I was occupied with what I was doing, as a high school teacher; and Joni was occupied in the ministry. We would travel during the summer. So, there were a lot of connections; but during those school days, I don't think we spent the kind of time that— Dennis: You were teaching at the time. Ken: I was teaching high school, yes. Joni: And I was fearful that I was making Ken depressed. My disability was depressing my husband. So, I would be very careful to take care of as many routines as I could possibly do before he came home from school so that I would not have to walk on eggshells and ask him to do anything for me that might encroach on his emotions because I knew that asking too much of Ken would plummet him into depression. For a long time, it was this strange tap dance that we both played—where we had to negotiate these spaces. But through it all—through it all—we both recognized we were doing this, and we didn't want to live this way. So, we prayed—prayed together and prayed separately— that God would help move us beyond this emotional fog that we were in to help us see the possibilities, in our marriage, that were ahead, on the horizon. Ken: I think the other thing that happened during that time, Joni was—especially, this was earlier in our marriage—but because of your notoriety—people would recognize you when we were in public. One of the things that was really hard—that we look back on it now—was we'd go to church. There'd be a line of people, half an hour long, who would want to speak to you. I was finding my—if I had a self-image problem, it was healed when I went to school because: “That was my classroom. Those were my students.” When I was in Burbank, those were people who recognized me—not that I needed it—but it was just that self-assurance, that affirmation that I was getting through what I was doing—that I think there was a balance there. Joni: But to help move my husband past that: “Let's go to a different church. Let's get out of this big church. Let's go to some small, little church.” So, we started going to a small, very little church, just a few miles from our house. We stopped going to the big mega church, where everybody knew me, just trying to find ways, as a wife, to make it easier and finding that those negotiated spaces became smaller and smaller—to the point where we both were in it together. We weren't adversarial; we weren't on parallel tracks anymore. We were on the same track. It took a while to get there, but we did. Bob: Did you feel invisible for a long period of time? Ken: Boy, that's a great description of exactly what I was feeling. I mean, people would—we would stand in a crowd. I would stand next to Joni, and nobody would want to talk to me. Bob: Yes. Ken: But Joni has been so good about bringing me into the conversation. She would stop them and say: “I want to introduce you to my husband. He's standing right here.” She realized that, from that standpoint, that I needed that—at least, in those early years—that we were a couple. I think, over the years, it's gotten to the point where there are more people that recognize us as a couple. It hasn't been an issue. It actually has been kind of a benefit—that I think, for the both us—that we are recognized in a ministry for couples. Joni: In those early years, when you were struggling with your self-image, those were the same times I was struggling with my self-image. I would hear him on the phone with all his buddies, talking about all kinds of things that he wouldn't talk about with me. I'd hear him hang up the phone, saying, “Love ya, Buddy.” It was like, “Ahh! Gee, I don't hear that tone of voice with me.” I remember being so— Dennis: Now, wait a second— Joni: No. I felt— Dennis: —the Joni Eareckson Tada could have a pity party; really? Joni: Oh, my goodness! In the early years of my marriage, when I would hear him on the phone with Jan or Pete, I'd be so jealous of his tone of voice with his guy friends. But okay, later on in the marriage, as we're praying—as I'm seeking God, “How can I get my husband out of depression?” Boing! This light bulb went off in my head. I realized he needs his guy friends. “Don't be jealous of them, Joni—” Bob: Yes. Joni: —“Put him in their camp.” So, I began encouraging Ken: “You know, your buddy Jan has been asking you to go fly fishing. Please, really, why don't you go fly fishing? Get away from the tuna boats—you gaff tuna, blood on the decks—guys with big bellies and cans of beer, cursing, and profanity—get away from that. Go fly fishing. It's more refined. You're going to enjoy it.” I was the one who kind of pushed him—not so much because I wanted to get him away from the tuna boats—but I knew, that if he was with his Christian guy friends, that it would be invigorating—that he would get a validation, as a man, from other men that would help him and help our marriage. I think that was one of the best moves I made to help you up and out of your depression. Ken: Joni was the instrumental tool for getting me into fly fishing. I really didn't, at the time, want to go fly fishing. I didn't want another sport; but she said, “No, you ought to go.” More than the fly fishing, I have a friend—we have a ministry to men. We use fly fishing as kind of like— Bob: The bait. Ken: —the bait; exactly. It gives guys a chance to get their hearts back. Bob: Yes. Ken: We talk about all kinds of things. We use John Eldredge's book, Wild at Heart, but— Joni: But you got your heart back. Ken: —but I got my heart back. Joni is a big supporter of what I do there, but one of the things that happened was—a little exercise that we had was go out and try to hear what God had to say to us. The first time I did this, I didn't hear a thing. Two years later—I can tell you exactly where I was—on a fly fishing trip. A gentleman said, “Take this afternoon and go out and try to hear God's voice.” That afternoon, I heard God say to me—not in an audible voice—but I heard Him say, “Joni is the most important gift I've given you. You take care of her.” Dennis: And in your book, you talk about when he came back from that trip. You saw it in his eyes. Joni: Oh, my goodness! He stood in the bedroom and said, “Joni, you're never going to believe what God said to me.” He shoved his hands in his pockets. rocked back and forth on his heels, and said, “God said that you're the most precious gift, and I'm to take care of you, and I'm going to do it.” It was like a breath of fresh air had just blown through our bedroom. It was like the fog of depression is lifting—I can see the sun, the clouds. There's hope. My husband likes me! He wants to take care of me, for the sake of Christ. I began to see all my prayers answered or, at least, beginning to get answers. And now—even back then—when his buddies call the house, and I get them on the phone, before I hand it over to Ken: “Jan, God bless you. Sir, I don't know what you're doing in my husband's life. Keep it up. I know you're memorizing Scripture. I know you're doing some new Jerry Bridges Bible study together on the phone. Keep it up! I love it. You're going in the right direction.” I'm thanking Pete, I'm thanking Chris, and I'm thanking Jan—all these guys—that I used to be jealous of—they're the best because they help my husband be the man that he can be. Dennis: And that story occurred—what I want our listeners to hear—21 years into your marriage. Bob: And the next time you go out with Pete, and Jan, and Chris, we've got a resource for you to take with you—a Bible study for guys called Stepping Up™, based on Dennis's book by that title. It's a video resource, and it'll spark some great discussion with you and the guys. Okay? Ken: Great. Thank you, Bob. Dennis: One last story. Joni, this one's for you. You battled cancer. You went through chemotherapy. In the process of going through that, fell prey to pneumonia. You had a moment, in the midst of that, that was pretty grim. You had your own encounter when God spoke to you. Would you share with our listeners that story? I think that is incredibly powerful. Joni: Well, as a quadriplegic, I'm susceptible to things like pneumonia. I have extremely limited lung capacity. I had to be in the hospital for nine or ten days. My husband, bless his heart, made a little cot, out of a couple of plastic chairs. He slept by my bedside. Instead of me having to be intubated, Ken got up every night—would cough me—pound on my chest. One night, I was so exhausted. I had so flattened out, emotionally. I was crying out to God. I had no physical ability. My lungs were gurgling. I could hardly breathe. I felt like I was drowning. I just didn't want to have to get my husband up another time. I remember saying, “Lord Jesus, I need You. I need to see You tonight. I just need to feel Your touch. I need to feel Your hand on my head. I need You!” I fell into a sleep. Then, when I woke up, with the gurgling and needed to be coughed again, Ken came over to my hospital bedside. As he began to lift me up, I looked at him, wide-eyed, and I said, “You're Him! Oh my goodness, you're Him!” Jesus visited me, that night, through my husband. I felt his hand on my forehead, and it was the touch of Jesus. I felt him push on my abdomen, and it was the strength of Jesus. I felt him pound on my back to give me air, and it was Jesus, the Breath of Life. Everything about my husband was Jesus. I said to Ken, “You're Him! Jesus showed up and you're Him!” It was such a beautiful revelation of how God can answer prayer—the prayers that are desperate and show up best through them. That was a beautiful moment. You know, we've talked a lot about cancer. We've talked a lot about quadriplegia. I'm going to confess to you those things are a cinch compared to the daily grind of pain that I deal with. Through my PET scans—a couple more years, maybe—I'll be declared cancer-free. Things are looking hopeful. My quadriplegia—I kind of know that route. But boy, the daily grind of pain is so hard. My husband, a couple of weeks ago, did a beautiful thing. Before he saw me head out the door, he could see the look in my eyes that I was going to have a very painful day. He said: “Wait a minute. Wait a minute.” He quick ran and got a stick-um, and etched on it a big “C”, and put it over my heart—slapped it right over my heart. He said: “There you go, Joni. You've got courage, and you're going to rise to that challenge.” I think what I love best about my husband is that he can find the infinitesimally small Christ-like characteristics in my life—he can find them, pick them out, and affirm them. He can water them and nurture them with actions such as he did with that stick-um on my chest. He believes that I can be courageous. I don't want to disappoint my wonderful husband. I want to be courageous, in Christ, for his sake and for the sake of the Gospel. That is, honestly, how I get through the toughest days of my pain. Dennis: You both are courageous. Recently, I did a little Bible study in Joshua 1—three places where courage comes from: God's mission, being obedient to God's Word, and third, practicing His presence. As I'm watching your lives, as a couple, you're on mission. You're on task, as a couple. You're about the glory of God and running the race to finish it well. Secondly, you've both been obedient. You've kept your covenant. You're not only still married—you love each other. And third, you're practicing the presence of God, whether it be fly fishing or whether it be flat on your bed, in a hospital room, battling pneumonia. You're experiencing the presence of God, and you're bringing a lot of hope to a lot of people. May God's favor be upon this book and you guys, as you go forward. Joni: Thank you, Dennis. Ken: Thank you, Dennis and Bob. Bob: We love you guys and hope folks will get a copy of your book. It's called Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. Thirty years of marriage—as you guys peel back the veneer and show us what real marriage is all about. I hope listeners will go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to order a copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Or you can call to request a copy of the book, Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. Call 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY”. Don't forget the title of the book—Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. We'd love to get a copy to you. Now, I know most of you are excited that summer is almost here—got graduations happening this month and all kinds of activities during the month of May—and then, it's summertime, just around the corner. I love summertime, too. I love vacations. I love the break you get. I love the warmer weather. But for a ministry, like FamilyLife Today, summer can be a challenging time because a lot of listeners get out of the normal pattern of listening and out of the normal pattern of helping to support the radio program. Donations to the ministry fall off a little bit during the summer. We had some friends, of the ministry, who came to us, knowing that that happens every summer. They said, “We'd like to help you guys build a little surplus—a cushion before June, and July, and August hit.” They have put together a matching-gift fund of $576,000. They have said, “We'll match every donation you receive, between now and the end of May, dollar for dollar, until that fund is gone.” We appreciate their generosity; but obviously, the only way we can take advantage of their generosity is if listeners, like you, will go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click the button that says, “I CARE”, and make an online donation. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make a donation over the phone. When you do that, your donation will be matched, dollar for dollar, with funds from the matching-gift fund. You will help us get ready for the summer months ahead. So, can we ask you to do that? Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button that says, “I CARE”, and make a donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make a donation over the phone. We appreciate your support, and we are always happy to hear from you. And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. I hope you can join us back on Monday when we're going to talk with Laura Petherbridge about some of the challenges that step-moms face. Ron Deal will be here with us, as well. I hope it works out for you to be here. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. Have a great weekend. We will see you back Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com

god love jesus christ family president lord interview bible marriage gospel wild heart parenting suffering scripture overcome redemption tragedy arkansas breath laughter encouraging love stories buddy donations thirty copyright sir family life jaguar little rock may god untold burbank cease stepping up gee john eldredge boing joni eareckson tada family life today ron deal bob lepine dennis rainey laura petherbridge bob you ken you bob yes ken it ken oh fl today joni tada ken how ken thanks

A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 2) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 24:58

A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 1) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 2) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 3) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 4) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 5) - Nancy Leigh DeMossFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Living God's Design for Your Life Day 2 of 5 Guest: Nancy Leigh DeMoss From the series: A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood Bob: What does womanhood look like biblically at home? Here is Nancy Leigh DeMoss. Nancy: Scripture talks about a woman as reverencing her husband, honoring him, lifting him up; a woman who loves her husband, loves her children. Proverbs speaks of the importance of a woman having the quality of discretion. I think so many of these come back to the fact that God made us, as women, to be responders and to allow the men to be the initiators that God created them to be. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, June 17th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What are the core character qualities that define biblical womanhood? We'll talk about that today, stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. I remember when I was growing up, back then the "CBS Evening News" was hosted by Walter Cronkite – remember – Walter Cronkite, and over on NBC it was Chet Huntley and David Brinkley, and I don't remember who was on ABC and neither does anybody else because nobody was even watching ABC. And so the executives over at ABC, I think it was Fred Silverman at the time, decided he was going to have two anchors, kind of like Huntley-Brinkley. One of them was going to be Harry Reasoner, and the other Barbara Walters. And for the first time, America was going to be asked to get their evening news from a woman. There was a lot of discussion – was America ready to have a woman as a nightly news anchor? And, you know, we look at that now from the perspective of more than 30 years, and it's almost laughable. I heard somebody the other day saying that most of the cable news anchors are women today, and we don't think anything of it. And yet back then we were asking a lot of questions about what is the essence of manhood, what is the essence of womanhood? And, frankly, even though we'd look back at having a female news anchor being revolutionary, and we'd laugh about that today, I still think there is a lot of confusion in our culture today about what's at the essence of manhood, and what's at the essence of womanhood? Dennis: And because of the cultural shift, there has been a shift in the Christian community. Unfortunately, we have lost our biblical moorings, our anchor point in the Scripture, and I fear that we're raising a generation of daughters and, for that matter, sons, who do not know what it means to be a woman or to be a man. And that's why we're committing these broadcasts just to helping women truly have a good grasp of what it means, biblically speaking, to be a woman. And with us in the studio to help us here on a second day is Nancy Leigh DeMoss – Nancy, welcome back. Nancy: Thank you. Dennis: Nancy has spoken to women's groups for more than 20 years, and I think it's fair to say, Nancy, that this is a life message for you – defining what it means and painting a portrait of femininity, is that right? Nancy: Well, God certainly has given me a heart to glorify Him, as a woman, and that means that there are issues that have to be wrestled with. Bob: Yes, and you spend time wrestling with this issues on your daily radio program, "Revive Our Hearts," which many of our listeners are familiar with because it's heard on some of the stations that also carry FamilyLife Today. You have also written a number of books including a bestselling book called "Lies Women Believe." There is a new book out called "Lies Young Women Believe." You've written a study guide called "Seeking Him," and our listeners may not know that you're going to be hosting a national conference in Chicago coming up in October. It's called True Woman '08, and you're going to be speaking there along with Joni Eareckson Tada and Janet Parshall and, Dennis, your wife, Barbara is going to be there, Karen Loritts is going to be speaking as well – Pastor John Piper is going to be speaking to the ladies, and there is already a lot of excitement about this conference. In fact, it's starting to fill up. So if our listeners are interested in attending the True Woman '08 conference, they should go to our website, FamilyLife.com, and click where it says "Today's Broadcast" on the right side of the screen, and they'll find a link to the True Woman website, and they can get registered online and plan to attend the conference. Let me ask you about this issue of masculinity and femininity. Does the Bible give us insight into why God created us differently? Why He created us male and female? Nancy: Well, actually, God answers that question for us in His Word, thankfully. And we find, if we go back to the Genesis record, that God made the man first, God created the man in His image, unlike all that had preceded man, unlike the animals or the plants or the seas, the waters. God looked at the man and said, "It's not good." It's not good that the man should be alone. And then it is interesting to me that God sent Adam on a little hunt to find, if he could, a completer for himself. Adam failed in that attempt. There was no completer for him, and then I think Adam realized that God was the one who had to provide his completion. God was the one who had to provide that which would complement him. And then, as we know, God put the man to sleep … Bob: And I don't know this, but I bet he snored like crazy during that nap. Nancy: Probably, probably. Bob: Just guessing on that. Dennis: You think? Bob: I just am guessing he was in a deep sleep and was sawing some mean logs. Nancy: Isn't snoring the result of the Fall? Bob: Well, that's a good question. Dennis: That's a great question. I'm more certain of this – that when God came walking up with the answer to the question, "Why am I incomplete?" He woke up at that point, didn't he? Nancy: He did, and the thing that's helpful for us, as women, to understand is that God made us for the man. So much of the teaching in our generation has been that the woman was is to be independent of the man; that her identity is not to be tied into that of the man. But as we go back to the manual of life that we have here in God's Word, the manual that tells us how life can best function, we find that God made woman for the man. He made her from the man. They are not independent. They are together created to reflect the image of God. God gave her to the man as his helper. God is saying, "The man needs one to help him in this task of exercising dominion over the earth, and the woman is the one that I have made to be able perfectly to help him fulfill that task. Bob: And in Genesis God immediately gives that a context of marriage, but you're saying that even a single woman has been created to be a helper to man? Nancy: Well, as we go into the New Testament, which helps us to understand more of the Old Testament record we get into 1 Corinthians, chapter 11, for example, that tells us that the woman was made for the man. So obviously that relates to the context of marriage. But I believe that God made us as women – me as a single woman – to have a role of being a helper, to be a cheerleader, an encourager, one who helps God's men fulfill their role in life. Bob: You know, you can almost hear a woman kind of flinching as you offer that definition, because she is saying, "That's it? I'm a cheerleader? I stand on the sidelines while men play the game, and I cheer them on, and I run the water in during the water break, and I pat them on the back, and then I got back to the sidelines and let them play? That doesn't sound like God to me." Dennis: Yes, and there would be those add their voices, Nancy, who would say isn't being a helper a demeaning term? Aren't you unnecessarily subjugating me to this sinful, selfish man and, after all, that was before man sinned. Nancy: The New Testament tells us that men and women, husband and wife, are heirs together of the grace of life, and that a man's greatest fulfillment and a woman's greatest fulfillment in life will come through complementing each other, not competing with each other, but being willing to complete each other. This is not a secondary role – the woman, as much as the man, was created in the image of God. The woman, as much as the man, is a recipient of the grace of God and, by the way, that means for both sinners in need of the grace of God. I look at the New Testament record in Matthew, chapter 1, of the genealogy of our Lord Jesus and included in that record are five women, which would have been unusual for a Jewish audience to include women in the genealogical listing – five women each of whom, from the Jewish standpoint, had a strike or a mark against her either because of an immoral background or a foreign background or even, in the case of Mary, the mother of Jesus, having a child without having a husband. In that passage, I believe God even shows us this pattern that women, like men, are heirs of the grace of life – participants, full participants together in the Gospel and the redemptive plan of God here on this earth. Dennis: Nancy, you're single, and thus you're not a mom, but if you were a mom, and you had three daughters like mine, all of them teenagers. How would you be purposeful and intentional about developing and rearing a daughter to develop her femininity in relationship to men? There's a good chance she may be single. Nancy: You see, whether single or married, I believe God created all of us, as women, to be bearers of life. Not only physiologically are we designed – men cannot have babies – women are physiologically designed to be able to have babies, but I think that is a picture of a deeper, inner truth that God made us, as women, to be bearers and nurturers of life. As a single woman, one of my roles and responsibilities in ministry is to give spiritual life, to nurture spiritual life, in the lives of other young women. And you have, Dennis, speaking of your daughters, in your wife, a woman who is a model to those daughters of what it means to be a supporter, an encourager, a cheerleader, and she's modeling for your daughters the blessing of establishing that as a priority – the building of a home. Bob: Boy, that is so key, Dennis, because what Nancy is saying is that before a mom can ever teacher her daughter what it means to be a woman, a mom has to understand and embrace it for herself, model it for her daughters, or the instruction is not going to make any sense. And we've seen just the opposite occur. We've seen women in the culture embracing the cultural definition of femininity and wanting to raise daughters who fulfill a more masculine design for life. Dennis: Yes, and as a result of taking on the water of the culture, their own boats are sinking, because they are confused, as women, as to what is a woman, and she can't pass it on to her daughters or to her sons. And, by the way, I think it's very important that our sons not only know what biblical masculinity is from mothers and fathers, but that they also know what it means to be a woman, as well, so that when they see a woman, they know what a true woman is. They don't define a woman around the exterior, which, over in 1 Peter, chapter 3, Peter warns a woman about merely placing an emphasis on the exterior. Our sons need to be discerning about what a true woman is and what a true woman is to become. Nancy: Of course, the whole purpose of Proverbs 31 is that it was written to a king to tell him what qualities he ought to look for in a woman; what were the womanly qualities, the qualities of a woman who fears the Lord – what would she look like and how should he choose a wife? Dennis: I think a key question for every mom and, for that matter, every woman, whether you're single or married or whether you even have children – but put yourself in this position – if your daughter came to you and asked you, "Mommy, what does it mean to be a woman and not a man?" And, Nancy, I'm going to put that question to you right now – what if you had a daughter, and she asked you that question? How would you answer her? Nancy: You know, Dennis, since I was a teenage girl, I have searched the Scriptures, the Word of God, and also as I've talked with literally thousands of women around the world, come to see if there are certain qualities, which, when you put them together, form a portrait of God's kind of woman. We've talked about some of those already – a woman as a helper, as an encourager, as a cheerleader, a woman distinctively in a role as a servant, a servant of God and of God's men. We've talked about a woman as a nurturer, a mother, a bearer of life. Scripture talks about a woman as a teacher, a teacher of her children, a teacher of younger women. And then we read in the New Testament that there are specific qualities that God considers precious and beautiful in a woman. You talked about how it's not just the outward beauty that a woman is to focus on, but 1 Peter 3 speaks of her having the internal beauty and radiance of a spirit that is gentle, it is meek, it is quiet, a spirit that trusts in God. Scripture talks about a woman as having a submissive spirit, being willing to come under the covering and the protection of God-ordained authority. Scripture talks about a woman who fears the Lord in Proverbs 31, is a woman who will be praised. So there's the dimension of her personal walk with God. There are a number of passages in Scripture that speak of women in the role of concerned praying women, and how a culture that has been taken over with secularism needs women who are weeping, burdened, praying women – how we need that in our day. Scripture talks about a woman as reverencing her husband, honoring him, lifting him up; a woman who loves her husband, loves her children. In addition, there are numerous passages in Scripture that speak of a woman being modest, chaste, pure in her speech, in her behavior, in her clothing. Proverbs speaks of the importance of a woman having the quality of discretion. I think so many of these come back to the fact that God made us, as women, to be responders and to allow the men to be the initiators that God created them to be. Bob: I want to ask you about that, but there are some women who just heard that portrait, that description, and they said to themselves, "Yuck, I don't like that. That's not who I feel like, I'm not sure that's who I want to be." Dennis: And they are also saying, "I question whether that's the way God made me. He didn't make me to be a responder." Nancy: Not too long ago, I had the privilege of talking with two different women on the same day who are both dear friends. The one woman is a young mother who came and expressed to me that she was experiencing some depression, some frustration in her life, there were some issues that were unresolved between herself and her husband. She was wrestling with the feeling that she did not feel motivated or successful in her role as a mother, so she was wanting to take on a career outside of her family, and she and her husband were wrestling through some of these issues. And she said to me – "What if my husband" – now, she has a godly husband – she said, "What if my husband wants me to be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen for the rest of my life?" It wasn't long after that conversation that I had another conversation with another woman who is a dear friend. She's the wife of a pastor, and I saw, in this woman and older woman who has devoted her life to being a helper, a completer, a responder to her husband. Her children are now grown, she has taught her children to love their husbands, to love their own children, and I saw in this older woman, a woman who is deeply at peace, who is radiant, who is fulfilled, a woman whose husband is nuts about her, because Proverbs 31 says that a woman who fears the Lord will be praised. What woman could ask for more than that Proverbs 31 woman has, and that is children who call her blessed, a husband who praises her publicly – this is deep in our hearts, as women, what we desire and what we were made for. Dennis: And, you know, Nancy, as you were going through your list and talking about all this, I thought "How refreshing. What a clear, refreshing voice in a culture that, again, is trying to define what it means to be a woman without reference to what the Scriptures say." Every one of these in your list are all biblically based, and what a great portrait to hang in our living rooms for our daughters to attain to and to seek to become. I thought of, as you were talking about being modest, chaste, and pure, how boys are never challenged to be modest, chaste – now they are called to be moral. They are called to be in control of their own sexual passions, but this is a different set of words than you would use for a boy who is being called to become a man. And a young lady who is growing up, having had this portrait lived out in front of her by her mom and then having had that portrait painted from the Scriptures by both of her parents – think of the contentment, the possibilities of her life and what she can mean to a young man, to a family, to another generation of children. This is where Christianity becomes uniquely powerful. Bob: And, ultimately, to the woman who sees this portrait and goes, "I don't know that I like it; I'm not sure God made me this way." The issue is not what she feels like. The issue is whether she will come under the authority of the Word of God and be the kind of woman that God's Word says He has made women to be. Nancy: I think, equally, a man could look at the portrait of biblical manhood in the Scripture and think, "I don't think God made me for leadership. I don't think God made me for initiative." But joy and fulfillment in life come from saying, "Yes, Lord." Dennis: And, you know, there are women listening to this broadcast right now who are not married to godly men, they're not married to a pastor, and yet you can take this portrait that you've painted here, this is still true regardless of whether they are married to a man who is a godly man. This is still biblical femininity. This is what God says is the picture of what it means to be a woman, regardless of your circumstances. There is hope there, isn't there? Nancy: There is, and I don't think that the average woman has ever begun to fathom the extent of the influence that her life, when she surrenders to the Lordship of Christ and His design, the influence that her life will have on her husband and on other men around her. We, as women, have profound influence on the attitudes, the values, the lifestyles of the men around us whether or not we choose to embrace God's pattern for our lives. Dennis: And, Nancy, hanging in the gallery of my own heart is the picture of my mom who, although she didn't have – well, the resources that we've had today and the great teachers like you are, to be able to instruct her about what it meant to be a woman, she did get in the Scriptures, and she was a helper, a cheerleader, a nurturer, a bearer of life. She was modest and chaste and was a woman who feared the Lord and had a meek and quiet spirit, teachable, and was profoundly influential – just exactly what you are talking about. Bob: But, you know, if we had called your mom back before she went home to be with the Lord, and we had said to her, "Do you think you're an influential woman?" She would have laughed at that idea, and I think there are a lot of women who hear us talk about these ideas, and they look at their own lives, and they say, "I'm not influencing – okay, maybe I'm having some influence on my children, but I don't feel like a woman of influence. I don't feel like I'm making a big difference in anybody's life." And that's an issue, Nancy, that you've addressed in the book that you wrote called "Lies Women Believe," which has gone on to be a bestselling book. And you've also addressed it in the new book that you and Dana Gresh have written together called "Lies Young Women Believe," because, as you've noted many times, Dennis, there are a lot of young women who are growing up, not with an eye toward home, but with an eye toward the marketplace as the center of influence for our culture. We've got copies of the books that Nancy has written in our FamilyLife Resource Center, including the booklet called "A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood" that addresses many of the themes we're talking about this week. You can go to our website, which is FamilyLife.com and if you click the right side of the screen where it says "Today's Broadcast," you can get more information about the resources that Nancy has written and if you have not read "Lies Women Believe," let me encourage you to get a copy of that book and read through it. Again, the website is FamilyLife.com, and you need to click on the right side of the screen on the home page where it says "Today's Broadcast." And there is also information available there about the upcoming conference in Chicago, the True Woman '08 conference. It's October 8th through the 11th, and it's a national conference. Women from all over the country are going to be coming in to hear a great variety of speakers including Joni Eareckson Tada, Pastor John Piper, Nancy is going to be speaking, your wife, Barbara, is going to be speaking, Dennis, and Keith and Kristyn Getty are going to be there to help lead the worship. It's going to be a wonderful two-and-a-half-day event, and if our listeners are interested, they can find out more on our website at FamilyLife.com, and they can register by clicking through to the True Woman website. Or if it's easier for you to get more information or request these resources by calling us, the toll-free number is 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. While women are wrestling with this subject of what it means to be a woman according to the Scriptures, men have been wrestling for some time with the same thing from our perspective – what does it mean to be a man, to be God's man? And our friend, Pastor Stu Weber, who is a former Army Ranger and a Green Beret has a wonderful message on this subject that we are making available to listeners this month. When you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount, it's a message called "Applied Masculinity," and you can request a copy when you make a donation either online or by calling 1-800-FLTODAY. Because FamilyLife Today is listener-supported, those donations are essential for us to continue on this station and on other stations across the country. If you are making your donation online, you will come to a keycode box on the donation form, and you will need to type the word "Stu" in there, s-t-u, so that we can send you a copy of this CD, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY, make a donation over the phone and just mention that you'd like a copy of the Stu Weber CD. We're happy to send it out to you as our way of saying thank you for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today. Well, tomorrow Nancy Leigh DeMoss is going to be back with us. We're going to continue to look at what it means to be a woman according to the Scriptures. I hope you can be with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. ____________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

An Untold Love Story (Part 1) - Ken and Joni Tada

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 28:59

An Untold Love Story (Part 1) - Ken and Joni TadaAn Untold Love Story (Part 2) - Ken and Joni TadaFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Following God Together Guests: Ken and Joni Tada From the series: An Untold Love Story (Day 1 of 2) Bob: The quality of your marriage is affected by your priorities. Here's Joni Eareckson Tada. Joni: Sit down, one time, with your spouse and just talk about—sketch it out—“What is the big picture?” Then, commit to make that your goal. For Ken and me—I trust for most Christian couples—it is heaven. It is the finish line. It is the end of the good fight. It is hearing those wonderful words, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” That's what we want to hear! That's what we're living for. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, May 2nd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll hear from Joni and Ken Tada today about how living with heaven in mind—the finish line in mind—can have an impact on your marriage today. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. One of my favorite passages of Scripture is in Second Corinthians, Chapter 5. It talks about how Christians are new creatures in Christ; and then, goes on to say that we're ambassadors. We live as citizens in one kingdom— Dennis: That's right. Bob: —but we're living in a different kingdom, representing the homeland—representing our King. I was thinking about that today because I was thinking we're all ambassadors; but sometimes, when some ambassadors get up to speak, I cringe a little bit at how that ambassador is going to represent the kingdom. I've never had that cringe happen when I hear our guests get up to speak and represent the Kingdom. Dennis: No, there's something that resonates within the spirit that they should take the stage, and the podium, and the pulpit, and tell it like it is because they have lived in the presence of Jesus Christ in ways that we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about a great love story. Ken and Joni Eareckson Tada join us on FamilyLife Today again. Welcome back, you guys. It's good to have you. Ken: Thank you, Dennis; and thank you, Bob. Joni: Well, what an introduction, Bob. My goodness! How, I want to be a good ambassador for Jesus. Bob: Wow. Dennis: You always have been! You always have been. Joni: Oh, let me never just defame the good name of Jesus. Dennis: Well, Joni, you've written over 50 books. Ken, you are a world-class fly fisherman. You told me that yourself. [Laughter] Joni: Yes, he is. He really is! [Laughter] Ken: I am not a world-class fly fisherman. Bob: But here, I'm just juxtaposing. You've written 50 books—you can catch fish. Way to go—a great team. [Laughter] Ken: Yes, I guess there is some connection right there. Dennis: It's a great team. Ken leads these outfitter adventures. In fact, it's called “The Wild Adventure” in Montana. Ken: Yes. Dennis: I'm going to get on one of those one of these days because I can wet a fly, too. Ken: That's a lead-in to that book because this book is for men—the book that we just wrote. Dennis: This really is a book; and Joni, you said it earlier. In fact, why don't you comment on this book? It's called Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. Joni: That's right. Dennis: Say what you told me, just before we came on the air. Joni: Well, I think the subtitle, An Untold Love Story—it is really Ken's story. It's an untold story about him. We have never peeled back the layers of our marriage quite like we have in this most-recent book; but after we crested 30 years of marriage, we looked at one another and thought: “You know—we're not experts. We've never been to seminary. We're not family counselors. But after three decades of quadriplegia—then, chronic pain and quadriplegia—then, breast cancer, and chronic pain, and quadriplegia—in some ways, that's given us—I don't know—some new fresh platform—a kind of an authority to speak to other couples about what commitment really is.” But it's Ken's commitment that comes shining through the pages of this book. Dennis: I really want to disagree with you about the seminary thing. Joni: Oh, come on. Dennis: I think you have both been to the ultimate seminary— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —every day, experiencing God and seeing Him at work in your lives, your marriage, and sharing that together. I have to say, as I told you earlier, your book really is quite a love story. It's a paradox. It's not at all the warm fuzzy that Hollywood would tell. Joni: No. When Ken and I married—well, I should say before we married, we had lots of friends—not all of them believers, not all of them followers of Jesus—who suggested, that since I was a quadriplegic, that Ken and I should go away—try it out for a weekend; see if this was going to work—“Ken, can you handle it?” But Ken and I just decided we weren't going to do that. We weren't going to violate our convictions. So, we went into this marriage, saying: “I do, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health,” really not knowing how challenging those 24/7, non-stop, daily, dreary routines of my disability could be. We call those years in our marriage the tired middle years. The first ten years—fifteen years—of our marriage were extremely difficult. Ken: It made for an interesting honeymoon [chuckle] you know, and— Dennis: And you really spell that out in the book, but I want to take you back to where you start the book. You begin with this romantic date—that you're on—where you declare to Ken that cancer had been a gift. I want you to tell that story. Joni: Well, it's hard to say it in 25 words or less; but Dennis, Ken has often said, “Joni, I don't get why God has given you cancer. I mean—quadriplegic, chronic pain—what's God doing?” I remember saying to Ken, “I think there was a time that probably the devil approached the throne of God and said ‘Okay. You see that 17-year-old girl down there, having such fun? You give me permission to smack her with a broken neck. Then, let's see if she'll name your good name.'” Okay, so God grants Satan permission. I break my neck, and I honor the Lord. And then, a few years later, I get married. Another decade later, I deal with chronic pain. “Okay, let's see if she's going to disown you now, God. Let me give her chronic pain.” And I come through, by the grace of God. And then, the devil comes back to the throne of God and says, “Okay, so she trusts you with chronic pain and quadriplegia; but you just let me smack her with cancer. Then, I know she will really give it up. She'll cave in. She will no longer follow you, God.” And I have, but it's only by the grace of God. I have no strength within myself. It's all the grace of God. I said to Ken, “It's been a gift,” because it's not only, I think, strengthened my confidence in my Savior's ability to sustain, but it's given me such a huge appreciation for this guy, sitting next to me—the man who practices Christianity, with his sleeves rolled up, every single day, when he helps me with those day-to-day routines. They're not getting easier; they're getting harder. We're getting older. Yet, the disciplines we learned through chronic pain and quadriplegia have sustained us, not only through cancer, but are now sustaining us as we head into our late 60s. Bob: That story you told about Satan going before God sounded like another story I've heard about that happening to another guy. I don't know if you're familiar with the story—a guy named Job? Joni: That guy, Job. Bob: Yes. There's a point in Job's story where, after a long period of time, he goes and says: “Okay, God. I would like some answers now, and I feel like I've earned them.” Have you ever had a moment like that? Joni: I did, early-on. I really wrestled with what God was doing. In fact, when I broke my neck at such a young age—at the age of 17—I was extremely fearful of what God might do next to refine my faith: “Oh, my goodness! If You start with a broken neck, like what's”— Bob: “Where does it go from there?” Yes. Joni: “—where does it go from there?” But honestly, Bob, as I shared that scenario, the devil going before the throne of God—and here I have quadriplegia, chronic pain, cancer—I guess I'm at the age, now, where it has become somewhat invigorating: Oh my goodness! God thinks I can really step up to this plate and swing at this ball? He really thinks I can do that, with His grace? Well, I'm not going to let Him down. I'm not going to disappoint Him. I'm certainly not going to give Satan, on the opposing team, the advantage. I'm going to swing at this ball. By the grace of God, and God alone, we're going to hit a home run because that ball is heading to heaven. It's right on the horizon, and I don't want to do anything that's going to demerit my capacity for joy, and worship, and service in heaven. I want to—I just want to trust that God knows what He's doing in my life! I think Ken and I, together in our marriage, have sensed that, as we move on, year after year, in our life together. Ken: But I have to say this, Bob. When Joni was first diagnosed with cancer, Jesus and I had some long conversations because, at 45 years in a wheelchair, I'm thinking to myself and asking God: “Why? Why Joni? After all this time, why would You allow her to have this cancer?” What we discovered—Joni is such a great communicator. She's been a great communicator for the disabled community; why not cancer? And we've seen, during this journey, how much God has used her to be able to speak to that very area—people who have had cancer. And not only that, the people we have come in contact with because of the cancer. Joni: The nurses. Ken: The nurses, the oncological surgeon, the oncologist, the— Joni: --the x-ray technician. Ken: The x-ray technicians. Joni: Blood test people, surgeons, everybody. Ken: And we always try to insert the name of Jesus when we talk to these folks. And we would have never had that opportunity without the cancer. Dennis: I want you both to comment on this because, again, Ken, this is not just Joni's disease. It's our disease—you, as a couple, okay? But as I was praying and thinking about talking with you guys today, I was taken back to Romans 8—to a passage that Randy Alcorn spoke to our staff, back in March 24, 2010. It's Roman's 8:18: “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.” Ken: Amen. Dennis: Comment on that, Ken, because— Ken: Well, how do we, as human beings that love Christ, show our love for Christ? Oftentimes, we say it and we pray it; but we don't get a chance to demonstrate it. Here's an opportunity for us, during this time, to honor God and to be able to show, in a tangible sense, and execute what we believe—that God is the Sovereign God. I think, for us, we've just learned to trust Him more. Both Joni and I have said, at some point, there's going to come a time when either one or both of us are going to have another diagnosis. So, it's prepared us for the other side of eternity. But for this side of eternity, we are just so thankful that God has given us this opportunity just to show Him how much we love Him. Joni: I think of that verse so often, Romans 8:18, when Ken and I have a disagreement or when we get haggling over the small, petty stuff. Invariably, one of us will stop—most recently, it was Ken, when we were in the car, arguing about something. He stopped, pulled over and said, “Joni, what's the big picture?” That's a big-picture verse that you just read: “What is the big picture? Why are we in this? Where are we going? What's our goal?” The big picture for us is the other side of eternity. Ken and I, together as a couple, do not want to disappoint our Savior, Who has invested so much in us—my goodness, His own blood in us. Friends, listening, I don't know if you haggle with your husband; but sit down, one time, with your spouse and just talk about—sketch it out: “What is the big picture?” Then, commit to make that your goal. For Ken and me—I trust for most Christian couples—it is heaven. It is the finish line. It is the end of the good fight. It is hearing those wonderful words, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” That's what we want to hear! That's what we're living for. Bob: And Joni, there's another verse that's like Romans 8:18. It's the one in Second Corinthians 4 that says that what we're going through is light and momentary afflictions. Joni: Yes; and then, it says, “Therefore, do not lose heart.” Bob: Do you really think what you're going through is a light and momentary affliction? Joni: This is where faith really kicks in, Bob, because I have to believe that the cosmic stakes are so high—that the joy that I'm going to experience in heaven is so great, that it is so out of this world—that in comparison to that, indeed, my troubles are light and momentary. That's why I shared, earlier, how invigorated I am, and what a robust, rugged wonderful—I don't know—it's a man-sized faith that I can have if I would but not complain and trust God with the challenges. Again, it's not just me espousing this; it's Ken and I, as a couple. Bob: Doing it together. Joni: Doing it together. Dennis: Yes, it would be one thing for me to say that, but for you two to say that in your book—I've been through your book, you know. You're really talking about some of the most challenging circumstances two human beings could possibly face in a lifetime. Joni: Well, to be fair, I've got some great girlfriends who help me get up in the morning and lay down at night; but still, the bulk of the burden often rests on Ken, especially getting up at three o'clock, four o'clock in the morning, every single night, to turn me, to reposition me in bed so that I don't get pressure sores, to re-tuck my pillows, then to go back to sleep. That's every single night for 31 years of our marriage! That has not altered one bit. That's a lot! I will never forget the time I had double pneumonia in the midst of my cancer. Ken was up for nine, ten, eleven, twelve days—every single night—five or six, seven, eight times—pushing on my abdomen, pounding on my chest, pushing on my back: “Come on, you—cough, cough. Come on, cough.” I remember him whispering, in the middle of it all, “So is this the worse part of the ‘for better or worse'?” I said, “This is the worse part. This is, but we're going to get through it.” Even then, to voice our vows, in the midst of such a terrible ordeal, was invigorating and, I think, soul-strengthening. Ken: I think if we were to look back on our married life, we could not have written this book, three years into our marriage—not that we're experts now. Thirty years doesn't make an expert. There are many who are married a lot longer; but I think God has brought us on this journey together, as a couple. It's been a journey, well-fought for. The lessons that we've learned have just been lessons that I wouldn't trade for anything. Dennis: Yes. You're both hinting at a question I wanted to ask you, because in your book, you write about, Joni, how you prayed for this black-haired guy in church. You didn't know who he was. You were kind of squirming around in your chair there and decided you'd pray for this guy you didn't know. Later on, he became your husband. I mean, wow! But he told you he loved you about a year into the relationship, as I recall. Is that right? Here's the question I want to ask both of you: You said you loved her. Today, you know what it means to truly love. Do your best to explain what love is. Ken: I think, if I were to describe what love is—it's the love that I sense Jesus has for us. When Christ came and said that He came to serve, I just think how good of God to put me in this position that I could serve Him through serving my wife. Having a wife, who is of like-mind and loves Jesus, means everything. I think that's what's been sustaining for both of us, over these past 30 years—and especially, over these past few years, that we've had to deal with the cancer. She's my best friend; she's my biggest supporter. But I would say this—I would say that we don't honor our vows like we once did. You know, “for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health”. We don't do that. Not that I—I'm still working at it; but I would love for this particular book to reach out and touch the lives of men and their hearts and say: “Hey, step up to the plate. Honor your vows and honor your commitment that you made to your wife.” Joni: And you'll be a better person for it. Ken: And you'll be a better person. Dennis: Joni? Joni: Well, mine's a little more romantic, I guess; but I know that Ken loves me because he likes me. He wants to be with me. I'm home for him; and as Dr. Robert Mount said, “Home is moveable.” When I'm in another room, Ken enjoys being with me. He enjoys bringing his fish magazines in and sitting with me—and that he chooses me, that he prefers me, that he wants to be with me, that he likes me—[emotion in voice] in spite of all the stuff that often accompanies what “me” is—that he chooses me, and likes me, and prefers me is so sweet to me, as a woman. It touches my heart like nothing else. Of course, that fosters so much more affection for my husband when I see him choose me, be proud of me, speak about me on the phone to his buddies, tell his best friend—who is an outfitter up in Montana, a rough-and-tumble mountain man, who shoots elk with a bow and arrow, who is an expert fly fisherman—he's just an incredible guy. Ken has always said of him, “Gee, I want that guy in my foxhole.” But to hear him say, on the phone, one night, to that man, Chris, “Chris, I've always wanted you in my foxhole. Watching my wife and her courage—oh, my goodness—I want her to have my back. I want her to be in my foxhole.” Boy, that's music to my ears. Ken: Yes. Joni says it very well; but when I made that phone call, one of the things that we have discussed is that we are all in a spiritual battle. Chris is a brother in Christ. As Joni mentioned, he is your quintessential mountain man. I watched Joni, during this cancer journey; and I saw the warrior that she is. She is truly a warrior—fighting through all these—the pain and, now, the cancer. So, I called Chris and I said, “Chris, I have to tell you that after having watched my wife, I want you in that foxhole with me if we're going to battle; but I'd like my wife in there first because I know she'll watch my back.” Dennis: Yes. “I know you're a good shot with a bow and arrow. [Laughter] I want the shield—my shield and my hero—in there with me.” Well, you guys are heroes to many. We need models, like you guys, who are running the race, all the way to the finish line of heaven—and maybe, not always with a smile on your face—but you're not quitting. I think your book is just an unvarnished look at a real relationship that has had some very, very dark valleys that haven't been momentary. They have gone on for years. Bob: Yes. Dennis: I just commend it to our listeners to read together, as a couple—both husbands and wives. Bob: We have copies of the book. It's called An Untold Love Story. You can go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to order the story of Joni and Ken's 30-year marriage—Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and order a copy of the book from us. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to request your copy of this book. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The toll-free number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. The book we're talking about is called Joni and Ken: An Untold Love Story. Go online or give us a call to request a copy. Now, with summer just around the corner, we have had some good friends of the ministry who have come to us to help us be prepared for summer. You may think to yourself, “What do you have to get ready for—for summer, as a ministry?” Well, for most ministries, like ours, summertime is a time when there is a dip. There is a drop in donation revenue that comes into a ministry like ours. The bills stay the same, but the donations drop off a little bit. These friends of ours, knowing this was coming, came to us and said: “We would like to provide matching funds, during the month of May, so that, hopefully, your listeners will take advantage of the matching gift. Together, we can provide you with a little bit of surplus as you head into these summer months and get you through the summer in good shape.” We were very grateful for that matching gift which right now totals $576,000. That means every dollar you donate, this month, to FamilyLife Today is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $576,000. And we're asking you to consider making as generous a donation as you can make today to help FamilyLife Today get through the summer. So, would you go to FamilyLifeToday.com—click the button that says, “I CARE” —and make an online donation? Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY; 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY”. Make a donation over the phone. Keep in mind, your donation is going to be matched, dollar for dollar; and pray for us if you would, that we would be able to take full advantage of these matching-gift funds. Pray for us, through the summer, that we would continue to be financially healthy and strong as we go through June, and July, and August. And I want to encourage you to be back with us again tomorrow. Joni and Ken Tada are going to be here again. We're going to hear about some of the hard chapters that they've gone through in their marriage. I hope you can tune in tomorrow for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. See you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com

Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria Butterfield

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 25:16

Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 2) - Rosaria ButterfieldSecret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria ButterfieldFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Train Wreck Conversion Guest: Rosaria ButterfieldFrom the series: Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Day 1 of 3) Bob: In 1997, Dr. Rosaria Champagne was a tenured professor at Syracuse University. She was a committed feminist who had no real belief in God. There was one other aspect to her story that made her an unlikely convert. Rosaria: I, at the time that I started reading the Bible, and I, at the time that I started meeting with a Christian pastor, was in a lesbian relationship. It wasn't just my first lesbian relationship. I fully embraced the lesbian community. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, September 16th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Dr. Rosaria Champagne is now Dr. Rosaria Champagne Butterfield, a pastor's wife and a homeschooling mother of four adopted children. We'll hear her journey this week. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You remember me coming to you a few months ago and going, “I have just read an amazing story;” right? Dennis: Right. And Barbara had read it, as well. Bob: Yes. And this is—in fact, I would say—I try to keep a running list of books that I read during the year. I would say this is still at the top of my 2013 list—this book—because it's just—it's a great story—but the greatness of the story is the transformation that takes place in what we're going to hear about today. Dennis: Yes. It's not often you hear someone refer to their conversion to Christ as a train wreck; but our guest, [Laughter] on today's broadcast, describes it that way. Rosaria Butterfield joins us on FamilyLife Today. Rosaria—welcome to our broadcast. Rosaria: Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here with you. Dennis: I remember when Bob walked in—and I was getting it from him, here at the office—and Barbara had read a review of your book. She said, “This is something you ought to do radio on.” First of all, just to introduce you to our listeners, Rosaria has been married to her husband, Kent, since 2001. They have four children. She is a former English professor who was tenured at Syracuse University. That's kind of where we're going to go back to—to start this story. Rosaria: Okay. Dennis: And she has written a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert, subtitled An English Professor's Journey into the Christian Faith. Bob: And it's not unusual that English professors would come to Christ [Laughter]—but your particular interest and lifestyle, back in the 90's—that's what made your conversion unlikely; isn't it? Rosaria: Yes, definitely. So, just a quick answer would be, “Definitely.” When I first started reading the Bible, I was reading the Bible because I was working on a post-tenure book. It was a lesbian, feminist critique of the Bible. I was concerned about the rise of the religious right. I was threatened by the rise of the religious right, and I wanted to read this book that got all these people into trouble. So, that's where I started. But I guess, because my life just seemed sort of boring and normal to me, I find it sort of strange [Laughter] sometimes that my journey seems so odd; but I guess that's— Dennis: Well, let's just peel it back a little bit. Rosaria: Okay, let's peel it back. Dennis: Let's talk about—you were a feminist. Rosaria: Oh, yes, absolutely. Dennis: Yes. Rosaria: Yes, committed. Dennis: Explain what kind of feminist. I mean—there is a spectrum. Rosaria: There's a spectrum, absolutely. I firmly believed that a feminist world and life view was a moral and ethical approach to living and, in fact, one that would get us out of so many of the problems that we were facing. When I looked at the world—and I saw racism, and homophobia, and violence of all kinds—you know, there was no way I could look at this world and say, “Oh, you know, obviously, a loving God is in control of it.” So, I—like many, many other people—rolled up my sleeves and said, “Okay, how are you going to think our way of it?” So, feminism, to me, was a very broad umbrella that allowed for the pursuit of individual rights, within what I perceived to be a moral framework. Dennis: And you viewed Christians as— Rosaria: Dangerous. Dennis: Dangerous; okay. Rosaria: Dangerous, anti-intellectual people. Dennis: Yes. They weren't thinkers, and they weren't readers—you wrote about it in your book. Rosaria: Right. And that was—that's not very nice; is it? [Laughter] I am a Christian right now and I could be in charge of the self-help group: “Over-Readers Anonymous”. So, it's not nice to say; but that was my perception. My perception was—as a university professor, I met a number of Christians—this is how these people came across. Now, whether they came across this way because I was deep in my sin or whether this is an accurate portrayal, I will let you all decide. But folks who would tell me that Jesus is the answer—without caring to even hear about what some of my questions might be—you know, questions and answers go together. There is a logical relationship between the two. Or when the Bible was invoked, it was often invoked in the same way that I might invoke a punctuation mark—to end a conversation rather than deepen it. Well, that seemed pretty fear-driven to me. I didn't like it. And then, finally, my biggest concern, though, was the fact that the Bible—many, many people knew what the Bible said, or believed they did—but nobody could tell me why it was true. So, it seemed, to me, just a strange mixture of superstition and patriarchy—where God, the Father, and—the god of patriarchy—came together to oppress people like me. As a university professor, one of my jobs was to be on a war against stupid. So, this is where my war took me, guys. [Laughter] Bob: Your presupposition in life was: “If we can liberate women and eliminate patriarchy”— Rosaria: Yes. Bob: —“then, we will solve many of the evils that we are facing in our world today.” Rosaria: Right; absolutely. Back it up, even further—my belief was that people were inherently good and that the right to individual choice-making was an inherent good. There were material structures that stood between good people making good choices. Feminism, combined with Marxism, offered a way of unlocking that potential. That is what I believed. Bob: Somewhere, in your life, your feminist/Marxist presuppositions and your personal sexuality collided. Rosaria: Yes, they did. That's right. So, the big story for some people—which is not a big story for me, but that's okay—the big story for some people was that I, at the time that I started reading the Bible, and I, at the time that I started meeting with a Christian pastor, was in a lesbian relationship. And it wasn't just my first lesbian relationship. I fully embraced the lesbian community. It sort of snuck up on me. I don't know how else to say it. I was not—I know people who would say when they were nine years old they remember feeling attracted to people of the same sex. I do not remember that. I don't remember feeling attracted to anything but books and horses. [Laughter] So, I went off to college; but when I went to college, I met my first boyfriend. That was a very heady experience. I defined myself as heterosexual and presumed that I would have a heterosexual life. Now, I was also a feminist. I was not keen on marriage. I did not think I would ever want to get married, or have children, or any of that. But I had said to myself, at that point when I met my first lesbian lover, that: “I'm not going back. You know, this is a more moral choice. I am happier. I can be myself.” I loved being in a relationship with somebody who shares my—truly, my world and life view. So, I thought that I was there for life. That's part of why I wasn't a closeted lesbian. My research program went from 19th century feminist studies and it moved into Queer Theory—which is a post-modern, post-structural extension of gay and lesbian studies. So, I went on record as a queer theorist and published articles in that vein. Dennis: You scooted past a statement that I want to stop— Rosaria: [Laughter] Okay, I didn't mean to. Dennis: —and just have you unpack a bit. Rosaria: Okay. Dennis: You said, “It was a more moral”— Rosaria: I did. Dennis: —“choice.” Rosaria: I know. Dennis: How can this be a more moral faith when someone has a post-modern view,— Rosaria: Right; right. Dennis: —which doesn't believe in absolutes? Rosaria: Right. That's right. Well, morality doesn't depend upon absolutes. Morality depends, especially within a post-modern context, on decency for the moment. There are a number of things that you do not have to worry about in the lesbian community. For the most part, you do not have to worry about sexually-transmitted diseases, and you do not have to worry about unplanned pregnancy. That cleans up a whole lot of things for women. In fact, I remember being at a gay pride march once. There was a placard from the Christian community. After the Leviticus verse—that everybody has to quote, of course—the placard said: “AIDS is God's curse on homosexuality.” Then, there was another placard—a responsive placard, from the gay and lesbian community, that said: “If AIDS is God's curse on homosexuality, then, lesbians must be God's chosen people.” Dennis: Because you can't get it? Rosaria: Not in your vanilla forms of lesbian sexuality; no. No, you just can't. Bob: You also just made the statement that some people kind of consider what we're talking about here to be at the crux of your story, but you don't. Rosaria: Right. I don't. I don't, but I will entertain this. [Laughter] I'm also— Bob: You were a feminist, lesbian, queer theorist, tenured professor—and you don't see that as kind of integral to the whole idea of the transformation that's about to happen in your life. Rosaria: Sure. Sure. Sure. It's integral; but see, the train wreck was about my heart. The train wreck was about starting out with this premise that this book—the Bible, here—was filled with contradictions. It was an oppressive treatise against women, and African Americans, and everybody else in between. It was sentimental in some places. It was mythological in some places; but it was hardly, hardly, hardly the backdrop of a world view that anybody could sustain. I went from believing that firmly to many years later—after reading it through many, many times, meeting with a pastor, meeting with various other members of this church community—to seeing this book as an organic whole, whose canonicity was more solid than any other canonicity I had ever come up against—that had an organic revelation that started from Genesis, ended with Revelation—that offered an invitation to me—me?—me of all people?! Right?—that one!—to enter into a covenant with a holy God, Who would reveal His will for my life and to Whom I could share prayers, that He would hear. That is the story. Dennis: Okay. Let's go back, then, to a little men's group that came to Syracuse University. Promise Keepers— Rosaria: Yes, they did. Dennis: —came to town— Rosaria: They came to town. Dennis: —and held a giant rally on the university. Rosaria: Right. Dennis: And you, being the proud feminist that you were, did what? Rosaria: Well, you know—I don't know that—being the proud feminist. I was on a war against stupid. So, what I did is—I spent ten minutes of my precious time, and I knocked out an editorial to the newspaper. I presumed it would be a little dinky editorial and that nobody would ever see it. Well, they gave me a full page. It generated a great deal of rejoinders. Bob: Your editorial said: “Syracuse should have nothing to do with these patriarchs coming to our campus.” Rosaria: It did, and it even called them a cult. It—you know, I was just being myself, gentlemen! [Laughter] I don't know what else to say! Yet, I got all kinds of responses and— Dennis: And you had two boxes— Rosaria: I did. Dennis: —or two sections on your desk. Rosaria: Right—no boxes because I don't like a messy desk—right. You've got to keep it on the ground. This was back in the days when you had Xerox boxes—I was using that expression; and someone said, “What's a Xerox box?” [Laughter] That dates me so much, but I did! I had two Xerox boxes. One, I kept for hate mail. One, I kept for fan mail. Then, this one letter came in. It wasn't hate mail, and it wasn't fan mail. I had to figure out what to do with it. Bob: And the first thing you did with it was wad it up and throw it in the trash? Rosaria: Yes, absolutely; absolutely. Well, I don't think I wadded it up because it was going to go in the recycling bin—because I was a good feminist! It was not going to go in the trash! Come on, gentlemen! [Laughter] Bob: So, you put it in the recycle bin. Rosaria: Work with me. Work with me. Bob: Well, what did this letter, that didn't fit either box, say? Rosaria: Well, it was kind; and it was gentle. Yet, it was also clearly written from a Christian world and life view. It was from Ken Smith, who is my dear friend and became my first pastor. But at that time, he was just this dude who wrote me a letter. It asked me some basic questions that were genuine questions, and he wasn't answering those questions for me. I admired that. I really liked that. I was also a good user, at the time. I admired the fact that here was somebody who knew a lot about the Bible. I was going to need to read the Bible for my new research project; and I thought, “Well, you know, I'll bet this is somebody who could help me with my research.” At the bottom of the letter, Ken asked me to call him back; and so, I did. I thought these were questions that needed to be aired on the phone. We had such a lively conversation on the phone—that he invited me to come to his house for dinner. Sometimes, people don't know this—but the gay and lesbian community is also a community quite given to hospitality. I tell people this—that I'm a pastor's wife now. I believe, strongly, that hospitality is just the ground zero of the Christian life, and of evangelism, and of everything else that we do, apart from the formal worship of God. But I tell people that I honed my hospitality gifts in my former queer community. So, when Ken invited me to have dinner with him—that seemed really like a great idea. He already seemed like my kind of people. Bob: But you came with a little bit of a chip on your shoulder—a bottle of wine under your arm; right? Rosaria: Well, but that was normal! I didn't realize—see, now, I'm a teetotaler; but then, I wasn't! [Laughter] Dennis: But describe your haircut. You said— Rosaria: I did. I had a butch haircut. Yes, yes. And yes—and I had the bumper stickers. I mean, I did realize, that when I pulled my car into his driveway, you know—“What was the— Bob: “What were the neighbors going to think?” You were kind of proud of the fact that the neighbors might be a little bit— Rosaria: Well, you know what? Here's what I discovered in Ken's house. That door was always opening and closing. People, from all walks of life—I met them at that table. I did not meet Christians who shared a narrowly-bounded, priggish world view. That is not what I met. I met people who could talk openly about sexuality and politics and did not drop down dead in the process. Bob: You know what? When I first read your book, one of the things I got most excited about was the model of Ken Smith. Rosaria: Oh, yes, absolutely. Bob: I just—I was high-fiving and going, “We need to read this, all of us, to understand: ‘Here's how you do this.'” Dennis: “Here's how you engage somebody who doesn't think and believe like you do.” Rosaria: That's right. Bob: Yes. Rosaria: But you have to understand that was normal for Ken. Ken didn't say: “Oh great! We're going to have the lesbian over for dinner. Let's be sure to share the Gospel as soon as she walks through the door!” or, “Let's….” He—this was normal for Ken. Ken cares about the heart. In fact, I found Ken's business card in one of the books I was looking at for some writing that I'm doing. The business card said: “When you're ready to talk about God, give me a call.” That's what the business card says. It's just—that's how Ken was. It is how Ken is. There's a book out, right now—that many people are reading. I love it. I'm reading it. I'm getting some of my neighbors to read it. It's called The Art of Neighboring. Before that book, there was Ken Smith—he and Floy, his wife—his beautiful, wonderful wife, who is my first spiritual mother—that's what they did. So, I became a regular at Ken's house; and Ken and Floy became a regular at my house. They did two startling things the first time I had dinner at their house—two things that were against the rule book that I believed all Christians followed. They did not share the Gospel with me, and they did not invite me to church. But, at the end of our dinner, when Ken extended his hands, and I closed mine in it, he said: “We're neighbors. Neighbors should be friends.” I found myself being in complete agreement with Ken. Also, Ken had a way of asking questions; and he had an authority—you know, I had been in a queer community. I had been in a feminist community. In my community, women ran the show. I had not encountered a man like Ken in my whole life. I found that his gentle authority—that when he asked me a question—in fact, I left his house that night and I thought: “I cannot believe you said those things, Rosaria! Why did you give him all that material?!” I found myself actually answering his questions honestly instead of answering with the programmed— Bob: The party line. Rosaria: The party line, exactly. Dennis: Your defenses were down because he had done a good job of loving you. Rosaria: That's right. And you know what? It started with the prayer. I had heard plenty of prayers before—Planned Parenthood, gay pride marches—you know the prayers that the crumbs are there for the heathen, like me, to hear. I had heard—I could have written—you know those are hermeneutic; right? I'm an English professor. I love to study different art forms: “There is an art form to that prayer.” That was not Ken's prayer. It was vulnerable and honest. He prayed to a God Who is not a god I had ever been introduced to. One of the things Ken asked me that night—and I still cannot believe I actually answered him honestly!—I mean, it was just so—it was so out of character for me—but he asked me—he said: “Well, what do you really believe? I mean, do you really—you know, you just really don't believe in anything? What do you really believe?” I said: “I don't know what I believe. I was raised Catholic, and I'm now a Unitarian. I don't really know what I believe,” which was true but not anything I had said out loud. Dennis: You know, your story is a great reminder, I think, to each of us, who are followers of Jesus Christ—that we need to be using our homes— Rosaria: Yes, that's right. Dennis: —to be more hospitable and to reach out with kindness; but as we do that—maybe, instead of providing the answers to people—instead, as he did with you, ask a few questions to find out where the other person really is— Rosaria: Right. Dennis: —and what do they believe and not believe. I think, sometimes, we are so zealous, on behalf of the truth, we want to get to the bottom line— Rosaria: That's right. Dennis: —and if you're going to do that in an effective way, you first of all have to find out where you deliver the bottom line. The best way to do that is by asking some great questions. Rosaria: That's right. Bob: Well, and the story is not over yet. In fact, this week, we're going to hear more of this conversation; but you've really shared your journey in the book you've written called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. We've got copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. Go online, at FamilyLifeToday.com, for more information about how to get a copy of the book, The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also order by calling 1-800-FL-TODAY, 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY”. Now, I know this time of year tends to be a time when families get really busy. There's a lot going on. School is back in. There are activities for the kids. The calendar is crowded; and you start to think, “We just can't do it all!” We talked with a mom, a number of months ago, who decided to call a moratorium on extracurricular activities for the family for a year. They took a one-year sabbatical from those kinds of extra activities. She shared with us that strategy and how it impacted her family. If you can help us with a donation at FamilyLife Today, this month, we'd like to say, “Thank you,” by sending you a copy of that conversation that we had with Joanne Kraft about life being just too busy; and we'd also like to send a copy of Dr. Tim Kimmel's book, Little House on the Freeway. Again, this is for a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today. We're asking you to donate $25 or more; and we'll be happy to send you these two gifts as our way of saying, “Thank you for your support of this ministry.” Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, “I CARE”, to make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make your donation over the phone. When you do, just mention that you'd like to receive the bundle on busyness. We'll be happy to send that to you. We do appreciate your support of this ministry, and we're thankful that you're a partner with us. And we hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we'll continue our conversation with Rosaria Butterfield. We're going to hear how she wound up in a local church, hearing the Gospel and responding to what she heard. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

The Good Life (Part 1) - Chuck Colson

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 24:55

The Good Life (Part 1) - Chuck ColsonThe Good Life (Part 2) - Chuck ColsonFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Good LifeDay 1 of 2 Guest: Chuck Colson From the Series: Coming to Grips With Grace________________________________________________________________ Bob: Does it seem to you that people today appear interested in spiritual things, but when you start talking about authentic biblical Christianity, they tune you out? Here's Chuck Colson. Chuck: We live in a time what's called "post-modernism," which means there is no truth, everything is relative, so there's no standards, no yardsticks, nothing to measure your life by, and what I'm saying to people is, "Yeah, that's where the secular world is." And if we hit them with a Bible, they're going to turn away. They're just going to say, "Here comes one of these people preaching at us. This is the Bible Belt." But if you start talking to them about the meaning of their lives and where they're going to find fulfillment in life, you can engage them. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 29th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll talk about how to engage the culture in a spiritual conversation with our guest, Chuck Colson, today. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. You know, it's not often when somebody comes to faith in Christ that it makes national news headlines. But I remember back when I was – I guess I was in high school or in college when the news came that Chuck Colson had found Christ, and the reason I remember it is because, honestly, if I'm telling the truth, I was kind of cynical about the whole thing, and I thought, "Oh, yeah, I bet he found Christ." You know, the guy is trying to get out of a prison term, and he thinks maybe religion will help him out a little bit with that. Did you think – do you remember hearing about it? Dennis: I do. And, frankly, I remember having some of those same thoughts, and he joins us on the broadcast. It was the real deal. Chuck, I'm glad it wasn't a fake. Chuck: Thirty-two years ago, if it was a fake, I've certainly maintained it over these years. But you guys weren't alone. I mean, 90 percent of the world believed I was just looking for sympathy. Bob: Well, and Larry King has said to you – he has been impressed by – he's been witnessed to by the fact that you persevered in your faith. Chuck: Every time I have an interview with Larry King over the years, and I've had many of them, he would say, "You know, I just am so impressed. You keep doing this." And a number of the secular interviewers will say, "You're really doing something with your life that I should have been doing in my life." Dan Rather said that to me this past spring. So maybe that's the witness, and when you say publicity, goodness, most of our listeners won't remember Eric Sevareid or Walter Cronkite, but they devoted almost an entire broadcast on CBS News to my conversion. It was bigger news than Watergate, because it was so improbable. "The Boston Globe" said "If Mr. Colson can find God and be forgiven, there is hope for everybody." Dennis: And there is. Chuck: And there is. My life proves that. Dennis: There really is. You write in your book, you just released a new book called "The Good Life." You mentioned that this book is like looking in a rearview mirror. Chuck: Yeah, it is. Dennis: And you're looking back over how you describe a tumultuous life. You know, if you would have said that to me 25 years ago, Chuck, I'd have said, "Well, yeah, maybe you, because of where you came from, being with Nixon in the White House and going to prison and all the fallout of making national news with a crime," but you know what? Now, being 57 years old, I understand what you mean. Life is tumultuous and looking back over it, we can live a good life if we have our hope in the right place. Chuck: Yes, it's true. Everybody thinks that you can go through life, and it's a breeze. People who haven't had a major crisis in life, people who haven't fallen on their face, just have to wait for their turn, because it will happen. You think you've got life all together, the world rolls over on top of you. But I've tried to write this book – you're quite right – looking at my life through the rearview mirror. I'm 73 years old. You learn a lot; you learn a lot from your own experiences; you learn from your own failures, which I've had my share, certainly; and you learn from the lessons of other people's lives. And so "Born Again" was written prospectively. I told the story of my conversion, coming out of politics, coming to Christ, going to prison, and that was sort of a forward look at a new life in Christ. Now, 32 years later, let's look back and see what really happened – what worked out, what didn't work out. And I wrote this basically – I think you fellows know, I wrote it principally for seekers. People today are searching for questions about meaning and purpose and what is life all about and how do I find my fulfillment and why am I here and what's my purpose, what am I going to do with my life? So I wrote this, hopefully, because my life has been such a rollercoaster, up and down, that people would look at my life and then learn some of the lessons that I've learned, and it leads you to only one place, as all of us know. Bob: Well, it's interesting, because as I started reading through this book, I had the thought this is your Ecclesiastes. Chuck: Yes, it is – vanity, vanity and striving after the wind, precisely. Bob: All of life is that until you come to the end, and you say if there is no faith, if there is no hope, then there is nothing. Chuck: Yes, the last words of Ecclesiastes capture it all. Dennis: They really do. There is a scene that I think really sets the stage for your book, and it's early in the book, but it tells the story of how you got together with a group of people and announced your conversion. You were near some bay or some sound … Chuck: Hope Sound in Florida, which is one of the watering spots for the truly rich and famous and wealthy from all over the world. And this woman was a lovely, beautiful, Christian woman, took her back yard, which looks over the bay, and the bay was full of beautiful, 70, 80, 100-foot yachts, and she put a tent out, and she had a 5:00 party, and everybody came in their white dinner jackets and long gowns, because we were heading off to different parties for the evening, and I gave my testimony because she had arranged it this way. I would give my testimony and then take questions and answers. I gave my testimony, and most people were looking away, or they had this studied indifference about them. They didn't want to appear to be affected by it. All the questions were then about Watergate, Nixon, the presidency, prison, and just as it was getting ready to get over, and it was not an easy experience – just as it was about to end, this man leaning against the tent pole, legs crossed, a cocktail in one hand, looks at me and says, "Mr. Colson, you had this dramatic experience going from the White House to prison, but what are you going to say to the rest of us here," he said, "You can see," and he sweeps his hand overlooking at the bay, "You can see what we really – we have the good life. We don't have these kinds of problems." I said, "Well, you may not have had them yet. You will. If there's anybody here who has really had a life without problems, I'd sure like to talk to him afterwards, because everybody has their share of problems, and if you don't now, you will when you're lying on your deathbed and all of these things will have no meaning to you because you know your life is about to end." It was like letting air out of a bellows. I mean, they just – whoosh. You could feel people exhaling. There wasn't a sound. Nobody applauded. The hostess got up and said, "Well, make yourselves comfortable, and Mr. Colson will stay and answer questions." And I had a stream of people, and my wife did as well – and we did a dinner that night, coming up and telling me "My son is on drugs, and I can't find him," and "My husband's got four mistresses. I don't know how to deal with it." I mean, it was just a never-ending series of problems. There was one study I cite in the book – times that people can become content and happy in a middle class lifestyle, money in excess of that doesn't do anything. It does not increase their happiness by any measure, and very often creates unhappiness. And I showed some examples of that in the book. So one of the biggest myths I want to get rid of is that the purpose of life is to make money and be successful and be powerful. I tell the story of Dennis Kozlowski who was recently convicted in the Tyco scandal. A poor kid growing up in Newark, New Jersey; works his way through school; is a whiz in the company; gets to be CEO at an early age; starts getting million-dollar salaries, multimillion-dollar salaries; and then starts dealing the employees blind and ends up with a $2.2 million party for his trophy wife in Sardinia with [inaudible] running around the place and with an ice statue of Michelangelo pouring out vodka, and that's the good life? Nah, he's going to be in prison the rest of his life. Dennis: You know, there is a generation of our listeners who really have never heard the story of how you came to faith in Christ. So to set the stage for how this book has come about, how your Ecclesiastes began to be written, take us back to the White House. You were working for President Nixon; had one of the most prestigious jobs there; you were a powerful man; an attorney. You and your wife, Patty, were raising your family at the time. Bob: Were you counsel to the president? Was that your … Chuck: I was special counsel to the president, yes, and I was in the office – as a matter of fact, my office was immediately next to his, and his working office in the Executive Office Building, and we were very close. I was one of the four or five people closest to the president. I really came up with the strategy for the 1972 campaign, which was a landslide victory for the president – historic landslide victory, as a matter of fact. And when the election was over, that night, as a matter of fact, when the voting was taking place, Nixon had me and Bob Haldeman, just two of us, in his office. We sat there until 2 in the morning, Patty and my kids were in my office waiting for me, and he's toasting me with all of the results coming in and talking about the fact that I'd made his presidency, and I can do anything I want from the cabinet. Go practice law, and I'd make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, which I had done before I'd gone to the White House. So I really had life made, and the next morning I woke up feeling miserable, and for two or three months, I would sit in my office and look out over the beautiful, manicured lawns of the South Lawn of the White House and think about, "Boy, this is pretty good, you know, a grandson of immigrants comes to this country, rises to the top, earns a scholarship to college and had been a success at everything he'd ever done, and here I am, and what's it all about? I had this incredible period of emptiness. And then I went to Boston one day after I left the White House; I went back to my law firm. I had a meeting with the president of Raytheon, one of the largest corporations in America, because I was once again to be their counsel. I had been counsel before I went to the White House, and now I was coming back to be counsel again. And Tom Phillips, the president, just seemed so different. He was calm, and he was peaceful, and we had a great conversation, and he started asking me about me and my family and how I was weathering in Watergate. I said, "Tom, you've changed. What's happened to you?" He said, "Yes, I've accepted Jesus Christ and committed my life to Him." He kind of looked away when he did that, almost like he was embarrassed to say it. But he shocked me, and I took a firm grip on the bottom of the chair. I'd never heard anyone say something like that that boldly. Dennis: Now, wait a second, you hadn't grown up in the church? Chuck: Oh, no. I'd been in church twice a year, if that. And would say I was a Christian because I grew up an American, it's a Christian country, and I wasn't Jewish, so I must be a Christian. I had no idea what a Christian was, no clue. And he said, "I've given my life to Jesus Christ," it was shocking words. But over those next several months, I began to think about that conversation and wonder what he really meant and why he was so peaceful and why his personality had changed so dramatically. And so in the summer of 1973 in the darkest days of Watergate, the world caving in, I went back and spent an evening on his porch of his home outside of Boston – a hot August night, and he witnessed to me; told me what had happened to him; told me his story – an amazing story. And he also read to me a chapter out of C.S. Lewis's book, "Mere Christianity," about the great sin – pride – and it was me Lewis was writing about, and I realized my life I thought was idealistic, I was trying to do all these things for my family, I was trying to serve my country – it was all about me, and it was pride. And I didn't give in, he wanted to pray with me, and he led a prayer, but I didn't. Dennis: You resisted. Chuck: I resisted, sure. I'm too proud – a big-time Washington lawyer, a friend of the president of the United States. Dennis: You didn't want to bow to anybody. Chuck: That's right, and I went out to get into my automobile and start to drive away and got about 100 yards and had to stop the car, I was crying too hard. I called out to God, I said, "Come into my life. If this is true, I want to know You, I want to be forgiven." And that was the night that Jesus came into my life and nothing has been the same since, and nothing can ever be the same again. The world all scoffed, as you guys noted at the beginning of the program, but it was okay. I persevered, and my faith really sustained me through prison, and then I saw a mission in life, and, of course, that's the great paradox. One of the things I talk about in this book is that everything about life is a paradox. It's not the way it appears, and we get this idea about what's good in life, but usually what turns out to be best for us is the thing we least expect or maybe don't want. The greatest thing that ever happened in my life was going to prison. I've been doing a lot of interviews lately, and I've said to every reporter – "Thank God for Watergate, thank God for what happened to me. Because I went through this, I've discovered what life is really all about." And that's what I write it in here – basically what I've discovered life is all about. And I think what we Christians have to do today – I think it's really a difficult period, because we live in a time what's called "post-modernism," which means there is no truth, everything is relative, so there's no standards, no yardsticks, nothing to measure your life by, and what I'm saying to people is, "Yeah, that's where the secular world is." And if we hit them with a Bible, they're going to turn away. They're just going to say, "Here comes one of these people preaching at us. This is the Bible Belt." But if you start talking to them about the meaning of their lives and where they're going to find fulfillment in life, you can engage them. Bob: Well, and we can be seduced, as believers, by the cultural message, which says, "You will find meaning and purpose and fulfillment" – I think materialism is the greatest seductress of our day, don't you? Chuck: Absolutely, and it gets into the church. It's almost impossible for it not to affect Christians, because you can't turn on a radio, look at a billboard, go to a movie, even if you took PG movies, you're still going to get it. And you'll get it in college, in schools, where relativism is being taught, naturalism is being taught in all the public schools in America. So we Christians absorb all this stuff, and then we kind of give it a little bit of a holy varnish by saying, "Well, we're really Christians, and Sunday morning, at least, I'm going to be devoted to Christ." So we get affected by this. Yeah, we've got to look at ourselves and our values. Dennis: Chuck, there's a scene that you paint vividly in your book of you've just been picked up by the federal marshals. You are being taken to this prison that was anything but like the White House, and you describe a peace, a lack of fear. Now, I have to ask you – was it your newfound faith in Christ that was the basis of you moving toward three years of incarceration? Chuck: Yes. You go through something like Watergate, where you pick up the newspaper every day and here are these charges made about you and headlines and screaming headlines, people saying outrageous things. You're in the middle of a battle for your life. It just totally absorbs you. It's very hard on the family. And so, all of a sudden, I made the decision, I pled guilty, I got my sentence, I'm going off to prison, and on the ride to the prison I was kind of, well, I'm relieved. It's over. In fact, the first night in prison I slept better than I'd slept at home in months because I knew what I had to do, and I knew what I was going to have to face, and I knew it was going to be tough, but I knew that Jesus would sustain me. Bob: Even as you recount that, I'm thinking of the paradox that must have been a part of your life. You were a Marine, right? Chuck: Mm-hm. Bob: The Marine Corps is all about character. Chuck: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Bob: Chuck Colson in the White House was the antithesis of character. Chuck: Well, he didn't know it at the time. He thought he was being the embodiment of the Marine Corps character. The Marine Corps character is "Semper Fidelis," "Always Faithful" – "Can Do" – whatever the job is, you're going to do it – it doesn't matter – walk through fire and bullets. So when Nixon would say, "We've made a decision," and there were times when I argued with him, because I thought he was wrong sometimes, but once he made the decision, he was the guy that got elected president, I wasn't. I was there to serve him. I had two choices – obey the order or resign. So if I chose to obey the order and continue to serve him, I ended up doing things now, as I look back on it – for example, what I went to prison for was giving a file, an FBI file about Daniel Ellsberg, who stole the Pentagon Papers, giving it to a reporter. That's a terrible thing to do. Ironically, that's what Deep Throat did. Now, all these years later, we've discovered it at the same time. But Nixon told me to do that, and I didn't question it. I had friends who were in the Marines who were in Vietnam, I had Jack McCain, the Navy admiral's son, John McCain, was a POW. I figured we've got to stop this guy Ellsberg, or we're going to put American lives at risk. So I did it. For me, the ends justified the means. Bob: Maybe instead of calling this the Ecclesiastes of Chuck Colson, it's the "Confessions of Chuck Colson." Chuck: Well, it is that, too. Bob: Augustin starts with that great statement that "The heart is restless until it finds its rest in Thee." Chuck: "In Thee," yes, and Augustin wrote in his confessions of all the things he had done in his life, and they were many. I mean, all the mistresses he had, and the debauchery that he lived in, and I could identify with Augustin. What he said was his principal sin, however, of course, was stealing the pear off the pear tree of his neighbor. And the reason it was his principal sin and the most convicting one is he didn't need the pear, because he had his own. So what he said is the heart is desperately wicked, because we enjoy sin. That was the powerful thing about Augustin, and that's the powerful thing I've realized, and that's why I say in this book, you cannot live the good life until you recognize the evil within yourself. The good life is impossible without recognizing evil in yourself. Dennis: Yes, and it's all centered around who God is, and that we must live our lives and not only who He is but that we will give an account someday. In fact, we've been talking about your Ecclesiastical book here, let's read the last couple of verses from the real Ecclesiastes – "The conclusion, when all has been heard is fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person." And then the way the book concludes is chilling, "because God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil." And the undeniable truth is we have been made in the image of God. We are spiritual creatures, and I really pray, Chuck, that God breathes his favor upon this book, and I just wanted to say, too, at the conclusion of this broadcast, thank you for being faithful. I am sure there have been many traps in leadership since you came to faith that have been far more significant maybe than the one that sent you to prison, because they would have brought disrepute to your testimony and to your character and who you are as a man and, personally, I'm glad Bob and I were wrong back when we heard of your conversion and that the cynicism that many felt has been disproved by a life well lived and by someone who is finishing strong. I just personally want to say thank you to you for not just living the good life but for following the King faithfully and representing Him exceptionally well. Chuck: Well, I thank you very much, Dennis, those are kind words. I have to tell you that I've just been a man doing his duty. When I think of what my Savior did for me that night in the driveway when it became so clear to me that my sins had been forgiven, I would be dead today were it not for that. I would have suffocated in the stench of my own sin, so I do what I do out of gratitude to God for what He has done for me. Bob: Yes, and because you have shared with many through the years about what Christ has done for you in your books – in "Born Again," in "Loving God," "Kingdoms in Conflict," and now this new book, "The Good Life." You have pointed people to Christ through your life and through what you've written. We've got copies of your new book in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and as with all of your books, it is provocative, it's challenging, and it's the kind of book that someone could pass along to somebody who doesn't know Christ. You can go to our website at FamilyLife.com if you're interested in getting a copy of the book. Click the button at the bottom of the screen that says, "Go," and that will take you right to the page where you can get more information about Chuck Colson's book, "The Good Life," and other resources available from us here at FamilyLife. In fact, a book that was influential in your life, you mentioned "Mere Christianity," by C.S. Lewis, we've got that in our FamilyLife Resource Center as well. And if any of our listeners want to get both your book and "Mere Christianity," we'll send them a copy of the audio CD of our conversation together at no additional cost. Again, the website is FamilyLife.com. You click the "Go" button at the bottom of the screen to take you right to the page where you'll get more information about resources. Or you can call 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. You know, it's been encouraging the last couple of weeks we've been hearing from a lot of our listeners who are aware that this time of the year is a particularly challenging time for us at FamilyLife. We're ending our fiscal year, and the summer is winding down, and as a result, we've had many of our listeners contacting us to say we'd like to make sure that FamilyLife's financial needs are met, and we'd like to do more than that. We'd like to challenge other listeners to get involved in the same way that we've gotten involved. We heard from a mom in Plano, Texas, who said she hoped other Texas moms will help support FamilyLife Today; heard form a listener in Salem, Oregon, who is hoping that folks from the Pacific Northwest will donate to FamilyLife Today; and a listener in Chattanooga, Tennessee, called in and said, "We listen to your program regularly, and we hope other who have benefited from FamilyLife Today will join with us and make a donation to help the ministry." Well, we appreciate you folks standing with us, and we appreciate your challenge as well, and if you've not made a donation recently to FamilyLife Today, maybe you can meet one of these challenges or issue a challenge of your own. Call us at 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation or donate online at FamilyLife.com, and we look forward to hearing from you. Thanks again. Well, tomorrow we're back with our guest, Chuck Colson. We're going to talk more about how we can engage people in a conversation about what really matters in life and how they can live the good life. I hope you can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

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You and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa Chan

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 27:37

You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa ChanYou and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa ChanFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Don't Waste Your Marriage Guests: Francis and Lisa Chan From the series: You and Me Forever (Day 3 of 3) Bob: Francis and Lisa Chan had not been married long when they started to think that their marriage needed to have more of an outward focus rather than an inward focus. Francis: And we started letting people in the home and having people actually live with us. Ministry was in-house, and our kids saw it. The kids saw the miracles in these peoples' lives and the life-change. Discipleship was happening 24 hours a day in our home. We were missional. We were praying and saying, “God, what do You want us to do with this house?”—like everything was with an open hand, but I think that's what so few couples do—is they don't say, “Lord, what do You want?” Instead, they think, “What do we want, and how can I justify that biblically?” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, January 24th. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. God can do some amazing things in the lives of couples and families who start to realize that marriage is about more than just the two of you. 1:00 We'll talk to Francis and Lisa Chan about that today. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Before we dive right into what we're going to talk about today, we have just a couple days left in the special offer we're making to FamilyLife Today listeners. If you'd like to join us at one of our upcoming Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways coming to a city near where you live, you register before the end of the week and you'll save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. This is the last week we're making this offer—it's the best offer we make all year long. So, if you'd like to save some money and have a great getaway together, as a couple, this spring—we're going to be in more than 50 cities across the country this spring—plan to join us, and register now to take advantage of the special offer. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can register online—or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register or if you have any questions. 2:00 Block out a weekend where the two of you can just kind of tune into each other and tune everything else out for 48 hours. The FamilyLife® Weekend to Remember marriage getaway really is a great getaway weekend for couples, and we'd love to have you register this week so you can save some money. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register. Now, we have had Francis and Lisa Chan joining us this week. It's been fun to get a little dirt on this couple—you know—I mean, on their marriage. Dennis: Well, on Francis. [Laughter] Francis— Bob: That's true. I don't know that we've gotten any dirt on Lisa. Dennis: I don't think we've heard much on Lisa. Lisa: Well, we don't have any more time. [Laughter] Dennis: Welcome back to the broadcast. Lisa: Thank you. Dennis: Glad you're here. Francis and Lisa Chan have written a book, You and Me Forever. It's all about marriage in light of eternity. In fact, you say something in your book, Francis, I want you just to comment on here. 3:00 You say that it's important to love Lisa in light of eternity. Explain to our listeners what you mean by that statement. Francis: Yes; it's the same thing that the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15. He said, “If there is no resurrection from the dead, then, I am above all men most to be pitied,”—like: “I would live completely differently if there is no forever / if there is no eternity. Then, let's just enjoy—we'll just eat, drink, and] be merry. Let's just have a great little family / have a great time here on earth, and just think about us.” But no—because there is a forever—now: “How do I love her in the greatest way?” Dennis: —and because you are accountable to the God who made us. Francis: Yes; and made her for a reason! Dennis: Right. Francis: And He made this marriage for a reason—it was for Him. Everything was created by Him and for Him. 4:00 So, we—I mean, this is what differentiates / is supposed to differentiate us from the rest of the world—is that we're not living for this life. It's not about your best life right now. It's about: “No; I'm thinking about the future. I'm storing up treasure in heaven.” Don't waste your time just building up and storing up treasures on earth, where someone is going to steal it, or it's going to fall apart, and you've got to insure it and everything else. Store up this treasure in heaven. Really believe that you are going to be rewarded a hundred times anything you sacrifice. If I am thinking about Lisa's forever and her future, then, I'm going to live a lot differently right here. Bob: Lisa, I had the opportunity, a number of years ago, to go to a group of friends. I said, “If you were going to share a passage from the Bible about marriage with a couple just getting started—and it couldn't be Ephesians 5, couldn't be 1 Peter 3, couldn't be Colossians 3—kind of the big ones that we all go to / couldn't go there—what passage would you share with them?” 5:00 And two guys that I asked the question to, independently, gave me the same verse. It was one that really surprised me. It was out of Psalm 34. They said, “I used this verse to propose to my wife.” It was the verse that says, “O, magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt His name together.” They said: “We wanted to start our marriage saying, ‘This is what we're getting married to do—to magnify the Lord together and exalt His name together.' That's the mission. That's the purpose statement for our marriage.” I thought to myself, “I want to go back and do it over—I want to propose with that verse in mind,” because I wasn't smart enough, when I got married, to have that at the center of what I was all about. Lisa: Yes; you know, it's interesting because I just spoke, last week, for a group with young moms. I was reminding them: “You are more than a mother. You are more than a wife. You are a child of God. You are here for Him.” 6:00 And I know we are talking about marriage right now; but I was trying to get them to think outside of—even just in their everyday life: “You belong to God. You are here”—like it says in Ephesians 2:10, I think it is—“You are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, to do good works that He prepared in advance…”—right? Well, afterward, one of the moms comes up and she just says: “You know, my husband and I—we both work fulltime. We are kind of stuck. We have these jobs, and this house, and these cars. We want to serve the Lord, but…”—but—you know? I'm thinking, “Wow!” We were just talking about how we need to back things up and get people like that, who think beforehand, who—young people who will say: “You know what? Our marriage is going to be about a mission. Our marriage is going to be about the fact that we are here for God. So, we are going to make different choices. We are going to set our life up in a way that gives us total freedom to do whatever God asks of us.” 7:00 And that is a message I long to get out to people who haven't done it yet—who aren't stuck right now. Dennis: There are a lot of couples who are trapped. Lisa: Yes. Dennis: They are ensnared. Lisa: Yes; and there is nothing worse than not being able to tell the Lord, “I will do anything or go anywhere for You.” That should be true of each of us, scary as it is. I'm not saying it's not. I'm fearful sometimes of what the Lord will ask me to do; but I'm more afraid of not being able to do what He asks me to do. Who are we here for?! Dennis: So, Lisa, as you and Francis started your marriage, how much on mission were you, at that point? Did your marriage start with this agreement that you were going to be a part of the Great Commission / being a part of proclaiming Jesus Christ to a lost world? Lisa: Yes; I think because it was almost unintentional in some ways. I don't think I personally was thinking about discipleship and really putting my mindset, intentionally, on, “How many women am I going to disciple and bring to the Lord?” 8:00 It was more—we jumped onto this mission that God had given us in starting the church. I thank God for that because I think, in a way, for me, it inadvertently put me on a mission. Our marriage started out that way—and then, this growing sense of: “What we are here for, and why we are here” and the joy that came from, all of a sudden, we are pouring our lives out for these other people—loving them/discipling them. We were put in a position of leadership, and we needed to lead. So, it was so good for me—I'm so grateful for it—but the intentional mindset grew. It wasn't so much for me there, right in the beginning. Dennis: Francis, what about you? Francis: Because of my upbringing, and because my parents and everyone died at such a young age, I had more of an eternal focus. I just woke up, thinking: “Okay; this could be my last day. What am I going to do?”—you know. 9:00 “Let me do whatever the Lord wants me to do today.” It was my focus, and I was trying to bring Lisa, who had had a different upbringing—and again, no fault to her / no fault to her parents. I mean, that's the typical American church teaching—is: “This is all about you. Let us cater to your needs. What kind of programs do you want in the church?” You know, it's all about you. So, it's just—it was trying to get us deeply into the Scriptures and say: “Now, what is this about? Why are we still alive? Why am I breathing right now? Someone is letting me breathe right now, and I'm breathing for Him. I want to do everything for His glory.” So, I did have some of that intensity in me from the onset, I think, from a young age because of what God let me experience. Bob: Well, it's one thing for two people, who have that passion, individually, to get married. The blending of that together and making it “our passion together, as a couple,” as opposed to “my passion,” and “your passion,” and we share a supper table and a bed. 10:00 How have you merged mission together in marriage? Lisa: I grew up—I wanted to be a singer—I sang in our church / I did some studio recordings. When we first—we'd been married a few months—I was approached with this production deal; right? These guys were going to record me, produce me, [and] put me out there. I say that because my mission—if you want to call it that, or my dream, was: “I'm going to be a recording artist. I'm going to sing, and get to travel, and do this.” And here was my husband, whom God had called to start a church. I felt the Lord very gently saying: “You need to lay that down, because I can't have you going in two separate directions. It makes no sense. Be on mission together. Don't have two separate things that you're doing—that's going to pull you apart.” 11:00 Bob: If you think—and I know this is—no one knows; but if you think / had you made the other choice—let's say you decided: “You know, let's just see where this goes. You do the church, and I'm going to do the recording thing. We'll…” What do you think might have happened? Lisa: I don't know what would have happened. I think what would have not happened is that we wouldn't have been so united by our purpose, and I would have missed out on God moving and working through the both of us, and I would have missed out on being able to be in this supporting role that actually ended up bringing me a lot more blessing than what this lime-light would have possibly given me. I think, years later, as he would speak—and then there were times I would come up and follow his message with a song—and I remember just feeling the joy of: “Wow, Lord; You've let me still use my gift for You, but in the context of joining my husband in ministry rather than being down by myself, isolated on my own road.” 12:00 Dennis: Let's talk about, for a moment, just a person, who's slugging out life, as a couple. They are going, “You guys are talking about mission.” How can they get started, Francis, to begin to share—and that's what I want them to catch—they'd be infected with a love for Christ, but also, being locked arm / locked step together, as a couple, defined around that purpose of the Great Commission? Bob: And can they be on mission together if they are living in the suburbs and they've got two kids and—you know, kind of the ordinary life—or does being on mission mean: “No; you've got to abandon it all. Move somewhere else and live somewhere else in some other way”? Dennis: Yes. Francis: Yes—no. I mean, because we live in the city—and we did live in the suburbs, and I believe we were missional—but we—the idea is surrendering everything—like we've talked about—to say, “God, this is Your house.” I mean, where do we see in Scripture that you are allowed to not show hospitality and say: “No; this is my home. No one else is allowed in it”? 13:00 I mean, but that's the mindset I had when we first got married, though; because I remember her even discipling a gal, you know, after 5 o'clock. I was like, “Don't ever have her in our house after five,”—you know, because I believed that whole lie—that this home is protected, and we need our own time. Bob: “My castle”; right? Francis: Exactly! Bob: Yes; right. Francis: And then, you start reading Scripture and go, “Where in the world would you get that?” And we started letting people in the home and having people actually live with us. Ministry was in-house, and our kids saw it. The kids saw the miracles in these peoples' lives and the life-change. Discipleship was happening 24 hours a day in our home. I mean, we were missional. We were praying and saying: “God, what do You want us to do with this house? Do You want us to move into a bigger house so we can take more people in? Do You want us to sell the house, move into a smaller one, and give the money away?”—like everything is with an open hand, but I think that's what so few couples do—is they don't say, “Lord, what do You want?” 14:00 Instead they think, “What do we want, and how can I justify that biblically?” Bob: So, the starting place for being on mission is to say: “It's not about me. It's about Him. It's: ‘What do You want?'” But a lot of couples will say, “Well, but I don't know what He wants; because I prayed and said, ‘Lord, whatever You want…' and I haven't heard anything yet.” Francis: Well, I would say, “Open the Book”—not our book; you know? [Laughter] Yes; open that one too. You know, in the Scriptures—I mean, there are so many things—this is where we are so messed up, as a church, here in America—you know, being hearers of the Word and doing . You know, we're waiting for this voice from the Lord. Well, true religion is to care for the widows and orphans in their distress. Go adopt a kid! Why don't you just assume adoption unless the Lord screams from heaven: “No; stop! Don't do it!” Shouldn't we assume—if this is true religion—then, everyone should adopt? I mean, I'm saying, “Why do we always defer to inaction?” 15:00 We just assume, “I'll do nothing until I hear a voice from heaven.” No; just open the Bible. Obey a verse—actually do it. If there is a voice from heaven telling you: “No; no matter what you do, don't help that widow,”—then, stop—but we do this opposite. Dennis: And there are a lot of— Bob: There is no voice from heaven, going to say, “Don't help that widow”; right? Dennis: Exactly. What I want our listeners to hear—there are a lot of ways to go near the orphan. You can go to the foster care system. They are in desperate need of foster care families. And frankly, the church of Jesus Christ ought to be emptying out the foster care system of children, in state after state, around our country. I mean, you don't have to adopt—you can just provide a family. For some of these kids, it may be the only family in their lifetimes—they ever see what real love is all about. Francis: Yes; that makes absolutely no sense to me that there are half a million foster kids that no one wants. How many millions of churches are there? 16:00 You know, it's like we've got over a million churches, and we have half a million foster kids. That makes zero sense. So, if every other church adopted one, we'd take care of it; but that's how pathetic it is right now. Lisa: The most paralyzing thing, I think, for us, as believers, is fear. We're so afraid of what might happen: “Well, what about my kids? What if I bring someone in [and] something happens to them?” And I just want to encourage people that I'm just as afraid as you. In fact, I told God: “I do not want a teenage foster child. I believe that what's best for us, in our family, is to take someone that's younger.” What does the Lord bring to us but a teenage foster child? She has been the most amazing blessing. And if I talk about it for too long, I'll end up crying on the air; but just—you know, we cringe to think of saying, “No,” to that and what would have happened— Dennis: Right. Lisa: —in her life. [Emotion in voice] But I'm telling you, honestly, on the front side, I did not want to do that. 17:00 But there is so much blessing in taking a step of faith. So, take a step of faith—maybe, even if it is not as grand as taking in a foster child. But do something that takes some faith. Go knock on your neighbor's door. Bring them dinner to say: “I want to show some love to you. Do you need help? Can I help mow your lawn?” Do some step of faith—take some action. Dennis: You just mentioned something there—and I appreciate, so much, your passion and tender heart about this because Barbara and I share that. We have gone near the needs of orphans repeatedly. When you get near the orphan, you find the heart of God; and it's a good thing because we are orphans too. Apart from the gospel—God adopting us into His family—we're spiritual orphans. Here's the question for both of you, Lisa and Francis. I like to ask people: “What's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?” Courage is not battlefield courage, necessarily—it's doing your duty in the face of fear. 18:00 It's the very thing you were talking about. So, what would you say is the most courageous thing you've ever done, Lisa? Lisa: The most courageous thing you can do is say, “Yes,” to something God is asking you to do that you are afraid of. There have been so many times—I scramble to think of which one to share. I think about the time when we invited a man, who had been in prison for six years, and his family of three kids—his wife and three kids—to move in with us—to give them our master bedroom, to move upstairs with our kids, and share that bathroom with all of them. That took a little bit of courage, and it took dying to ourselves. It took saying, “You can have my bedroom and my bathroom,”—which was, in one sense, so stupid and dumb but felt hard—and letting go of fear / letting go of fear—that's the most courageous thing to do. If you are a scaredy-cat, like me, you have to preach the truth to yourself. 19:00 You have to preach verses like 2 Timothy 1:7: “For God gave us a spirit, not of fear, but of power and love and self-control.” I have to say the truth of God's Word to myself, all the time, because I will limit myself. I will refuse to say, “Yes,” to God and will be consumed with anxiety and fear in all these situations. But: “No; that is not from God. He gave us, not a spirit of fear, but of power, and love, and self-control.” So, choose to say, “Yes,” to God and to love someone. Dennis: Alright; Francis, what is your most courageous thing you've ever done? Francis: You know, it's funny. A lot of those things that scare me a little bit—but I'm not really that afraid of dying, or this, or that. You'll probably be surprised by this; but probably, the most courageous moments are—when I'm sitting on a plane with a stranger or talking to a neighbor—and I lay out the gospel, one on one, with them. That terrifies me. [Laughter] 20:00 That may just sound dumb to some people, but that's the hardest thing for me—to be rejected and to just throw—I can stand in front of 100,000 people in a stadium—no big deal! You put me, one on one, with someone that I know is not used to hearing about Jesus—and I'm going to lay it out for them—it still scares me to this day. It still takes courage. Bob: Do you know how many people just went, “Oh, it's so good to hear him say that”? [Laughter] Dennis: Here's what I want to share with you: “You're in good company.” Bob: Yes. Francis: Yes. Dennis: We just recently asked a guy that same question—not just any guy—but a NASA astronaut, who was on the International Space Station. I asked him—he's been to outer space twice. So, he's strapped a rocket— Lisa: Right. Dennis: —on and gone into outer space. Bob: He floated out in nothing with the space suit and the tentacles on him; you know? Dennis: Oh, yes—so, you with me? I asked him the same question. It's like you—he's going, “Sharing my faith in Jesus Christ—" 21:00 Francis: Yes. Dennis: —“is repeatedly the most courageous thing I ever do.” Francis: Totally. And it's interesting—when I was younger, we didn't care for the poor. We didn't think about human trafficking—this or that. So, when we started doing that, that was a big deal; but now, that's not really a scary thing to do—that's very accepted / you know, you're a hero if you do this—but if you start sharing the gospel, you're going to get shutdown. Dennis: Especially today; huh? Francis: Amen! It's—times are changing. Dennis: Well, I just want to applaud you two and your book because I think you properly paint marriage with its noble, transcendent, God-imbued purpose—that we're made in His image, designed to reproduce a godly legacy, preach the gospel to the next generation, and glorify Him in all that we say and do. I just am glad you are using marriage to promote that kind of thinking because I think that's what's missing today. 22:00 Francis: Amen. Dennis: I just want to thank you guys for being in the battle; and Lisa, for following this guy / for saying, “Yes,” to him— Bob: Crazy Francis; right? That's— Dennis: Well, Crazy Love Francis. Francis: There you go. Bob: Maybe, just scrap the love part—I think Crazy Francis. [Laughter] Dennis: But thank you guys for all you do. Francis: Yes; thanks for having us. Lisa: Yes; thank you very much. Bob: We have copies of the book that Francis and Lisa have written. It's called You and Me Forever. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website—FamilyLifeToday.com—or call to order the book, You and Me Forever—1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” And don't forget—this weekend is the wrap-up of the special offer we're making for FamilyLife Today listeners. 23:00 If you'd like to attend an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway—a two-and-a-half-day getaway for couples in a nice setting, where you can relax and unwind, and just have a couple of days together, focusing on your marriage—every marriage could use that; right? Well, if you'd like to save 50 percent off the registration fee, you need to sign up this week to take advantage of the special offer. You can sign up, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to register at 1-800-FL-TODAY. If you have any questions, give us a call or go to our website; and plan to join us at a getaway. I tell couples all the time: “Most of us are more conscientious about making sure we change the oil in our car than we are about making sure we keep our marriage functioning the way it ought to be functioning,” and “Marriage takes some time, and effort, and work; and this is a part of how you do that.” So, sign up this week and join us at a Weekend to Remember getaway—save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. 24:00 Go to FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” And speaking of marriage, tomorrow, we're going to hear from our friend, Alistair Begg, who has some thoughts about the solemnity of marriage and about the importance of understanding marriage as a covenant relationship. We'll hear from him tomorrow. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

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Storm Stories: Charlie's Victory (Part 2) - Charlie & Lucy Wedemeyer

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 25:09

Storm Stories: Charlie's Victory (Part 1) - Charlie & Lucy WedemeyerStorm Stories: Charlie's Victory (Part 2) - Charlie & Lucy WedemeyerFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Storm Stories: Charlie's VictoryDay 2 of 2 Guest: Lucy and Charlie Wedemeyer From the series: Storm Stories: Charlie's Victory Part 2 Bob: What causes someone to persevere in a marriage relationship in spite of incredible hardship? Here is Lucy Wedemeyer. Lucy: I think it goes back to the marriage vows, "for better, for worse." I don't think anyone ever dreams that the "for worse" part will ever be a part of your life. As he began to deteriorate and was struggling with just staying alive, how can you abandon someone when you made that commitment? Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, August 8th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will get a close-up look today at what genuine love, commitment, and self-sacrifice really look like in a marriage. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Friday edition. I'm not sure exactly how to describe this week. It's kind of like true heroes week, you know, great love stories week. We started off hearing about John and Donna Bishop and the remarkable story of how their marriage has gone through the incredible trial of him having lost his memory completely, and they had to start their marriage and their family over again from scratch. Dennis: Yes, and Donna was really the key to that because she loved him in the midst of his illness, and the story we're going to hear on today's broadcast is a continuation of another love story, Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer, where she also loved and is still loving her man in the midst of great suffering and great trial. Bob: Yes, Charlie and Lucy were married in 1966, and 11 years later, Charlie was working as a football coach in Los Gatos, California. They had two children and, all of a sudden, Charlie noticed that there were things he used to be able to do that he couldn't do any longer – things like buttoning his buttons. And so they went to the doctor, and the doctor said, "You may have a year to live, maybe a year and a half," and as it turns out, Charlie has beaten those odds. Dennis: Slightly – 31 years he's been alive. Bob: Yes. When we interviewed him, this was more than a decade ago, he had already survived for a decade and half. He is in a wheelchair, he's on a respirator full time, and all he is able to move are his lips and his eyes, and that's how he and Lucy communicate. She reads his lips and, as our listeners will hear, she interprets what he is saying. And as we've already said this week, this goes down as one of the top stories we've heard on FamilyLife Today in the years that we've been doing this program. And here is part 2 of our conversation with Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer. Dennis: Bob, when Charlie and Lucy speak to audiences, they warn them. In fact, in their book, "Charlie's Victory," they wrote down the warning they give people when they speak to them in large audiences. They say "Sometimes in our lives, we'll all be faced with some circumstance that will seem too difficult to cope with. When that time comes, we have to make the choice, because God gives each one of us the power of choice. We can choose to be miserable, feel sorry for ourselves, throw our own private pity party and cause everyone around us to be miserable, too. Or we can choose to face our trials with God's help knowing that we'll come out on the other side as stronger people for the experience. We all have that choice." And, you know, you all have really come out on that other side, although, Lucy, as I think back to the struggle that you've been through in facing Charlie's illness and caring for him – in fact, the nine years that you picked him up out of bed and without nursing help for all those years, Lucy, there had to be days when your strength, physical strength waned, and your emotional strength ebbed. It had to seem like it was unbearable. Lucy: Well, it was, and I sort of made a pact with myself that I wouldn't cry in front of Charlie. I didn't want to let down, you know, I always wanted to be up. I'm always kind of an up person, and one particular afternoon, Cully (ph) had helped me get Charlie in a borrowed van to go to the doctor. It was the first time we were putting Charlie in the wheelchair and trying to transfer him. And as we got to the place, and we were attempting to put him into the wheelchair, we couldn't. It was a struggle. It was so difficult that I began to have this lump welling up in my throat, and I thought, "No, no, I am not going to cry." And so I said to him and to Cully, "Excuse me, I'll be right back," and they kind of looked at me with these faces like "Where are you going? We have an appointment." And I jumped out of the van, and it was a busy parking lot, and I went to the back of the van, and I sort of knelt down behind it, and I cried out to God, I said, "I cannot do this anymore. I cannot." It was really miraculous because right then and there, without truly understanding what it was to have a personal relationship with Jesus, the Lord absolutely enveloped me with this wonderful blanket of warmth, of comfort, of this peace that it was going to be okay. It was like this little void in me, in the center of me, was filled. And I got up, wiped my eyes and marched back to the van and opened the door, and Cully looked at me, he says, "Mom, are you okay?" And I said, "Yes, I am fine." And really from that day forward the Lord gave me a new resolve that allowed me to go through everything and be calm. It was as if God had said, "This is your mission," you know, "to help Charlie, to keep him going, and I have bigger plans." Little did we know. And Charlie's saying, "I thank God every day for Lucy because He, God knew beforehand, that Lucy would be the one that would stand by my side throughout our difficult circumstances, and I must say that whenever someone is diagnosed with a terminal disease, 72 percent of their marriages fall apart." Dennis: You know, Bob, as I prepared for the interview, I watched a PBS special about this couple and this, of course, was something that was created back in the mid-1980s, and I sat there with my three daughters and wife and watched Lucy's commitment to Charlie, and Charlie's commitment to his family and to life, I just sat there with emotion welling up in me at the enormous commitment that was before me. In an era, in an age, when commitment is so cheap, and I've been looking forward to asking both of you this question, and I want you to address it as honestly as you can, because we have a lot of listeners at forks in the road over all kinds of issues in their lives, and it is not this often that they run into someone who has the stuff of commitment that you have. Speak to that person facing that issue. Lucy: I think it goes back to the marriage vows, "for better, for worse." I don't think anyone ever dreams that the "for worse" part will ever be a part of your life. I think, for Charlie and I, we were so blessed so early in our lives, I will never forget all those years being able to watch him as an athlete tear up the football field, basketball, and baseball, and be a part of his life when he was so active. As he began to deteriorate and was struggling with just staying alive, how can you abandon someone when you made that commitment? I think I was the most impressed, though, with the fact that Charlie was committed to continue at any cost. In a marriage, communication is the maker or breaker of so many lives, and with Charlie, he was losing that ability. He was struggling to not only live and breathe, but he was not able to speak very well. His sound was becoming less audible every day, and yet I know in the early years, I felt if I could just love Charlie enough that it was okay. But as I struggled physically with caring for Charlie, it just went back to that commitment of for better or for worse, and when finally a nurse expressed to us the difference that Jesus could make in our lives, finally, I had that super strength that really was there waiting for me all along, and that enabled me to know that it's God's love for us. His unconditional love for us that is reflected then in our marriage, in our relationship with our children, and with our families. And He has given us more joy today than I know we could have had with Charlie being healthy, because we wouldn't have recognized it. It's amazing what it takes the Lord to get your attention, and, boy, he had to whack us on the side of the head. And Charlie is saying, "In fact, I must say that our marriage is a reflection of our relationship with God, and to think of what He was willing to sacrifice for us, we should be at least willing to sacrifice for our spouses and our families." Well, our time here is short, so short, and what we have realized now is that actually Charlie's ALS is a blessing, because he's allowed – I mean God has allowed him to be a voice to share his message of hope and encouragement whereas if he'd been a healthy person, he wouldn't have the impact. And so we go out now sharing that message, and it is exciting to see, because the Lord is not only blessing us with opportunities. but we receive cards and letters, we receive calls from people who are going through the most difficult, hurtful times, not necessarily just an illness, not necessarily a marriage situation but they can see a light at the end of the tunnel knowing that we can get through our "tragedy," what most people would consider a tragedy, that we're triumphing through it; that you can do it; that there is hope, and that's through the Lord. Dennis: Where is the disease now, Charlie? How has it progressed now? Lucy: Well, the doctors have literally thrown up their hands, but Charlie is saying, "I am very fortunate because my disease has stabilized, and it is only by the grace of God that I am able to move my facial muscles even though I can't breathe or speak, because most ALS patients lose the ability, after a few years, to move their lips, their eyes, and I know that God has given me that gift to do His work." Dennis: Well, your face is very much alive, and there is a countenance there that I wish, Bob, all of our listeners could see. And I want to turn to his kids, who happen to be in the studio with us – Carrie and Cully – and one of the things we have done from time to time is we have turned to sons or daughters and asked them to give a verbal tribute to their father and mother, and that's what I'm going to ask you two to do right now – make a statement of your appreciation, affirmation, and love and as you do it, don't just generalize it. Say some specific things about what this couple right here across the table mean to you two. Cully: Well, Mom and Dad, both of you have displayed so much love not only for each other and for Carrie and I, but also to so many different people. You've been willing to share your story with everyone openly, freely, and honestly about the pain and the struggles and the things that you've gone through but, more importantly, about what Christ has done in your life and how, without Him, both of you wouldn't be here, Carrie and I wouldn't be here. He saved us all, and He's brought us together as a family. ALS tried to destroy first you, Dad, and then our family, but God saved us, and through Christ we are a family. And that's the most important unit, that's the most important body that the Lord has put together, and I just thank you both for being stewards of His Word and being His humble servants and expressing His love through your lives. Dennis: Okay, Carrie? Carrie: Out of our family of four, I was the last to come to know Jesus Christ as Lord, and a lot of parents ask me how my parents conveyed Christianity to me; that, you know, "How did they get you in? How did they get you in the Kingdom? What did they do?" And one thing that I like to share is that my parents never hit me over the head with the Bible, they never forced me to do anything. What they showed to me was Jesus in their lives. Mom and Dad, I would like to thank you for being an example of what unconditional love is, for showing me the love of Jesus through your lives and through your love for me; for your endless prayers and support before I became a Christian; for your patience with me; and for laying a foundation in my life of commitment and of compassion and of giving of myself. Dennis: You know, there are a lot of tears right now in the studio, and I think there are tears from a pair of children who are honoring their mom and dad, and there is a mom and dad crying tears of honor having just experienced that. I just had the feeling, Bob, as both of these for sharing about their parents of just the holiness of a moment, of a couple who have been courageous beyond description. A lot of people have limitations in their lives but have never been challenged like this couple. But to have kids who have watched them live it, who have been up close, and who have seen the authenticity even makes their words even all that much more powerful and the honor that has been given to Charlie and Lucy all that more meaningful. I want to say thanks to you two for not quitting and for not giving up. You really are a model of commitment, and our country desperately needs couples like you, and I pray 17 years from today you come back. Bob: Well, again, today we've been listening to part 2 of a conversation recorded now more than a decade ago with Charlie and Lucy Wedemeyer. So we're getting close to that 17-year mark. Dennis: You know, I'm looking at it, Bob, and I think we need to have them back before then, I really do. I think we need to invite them back, and let's hear the rest of the love story because, Bob, we're all in need of hearing the real deal. I think authenticity today – well, I think people are hungering and thirsting to hear people who are no baloney, just tell it to me as it is, even in its raw, unvarnished form where life is gritty and tough and you know what? It doesn't turn out perfect like we wish it would. And that's what I really like about Charlie and Lucy. This is a tough story. It is a love story, but it's continuing today, and I know the sacrifices and price that has been paid probably go beyond our imagination. But I just want to turn to the listener and say to you, I don't know what you're facing in your marriage with your children, with life, but God is there. He'll be there in the midst of that just like He was for Charlie and Lucy and has guided them all these years, and He calls us to faith. The other morning, I woke up, and I don't know what caused me to do this with Barbara, but I – we were kind of conversing as we were waking up in bed, and I just quoted one of Dr. Bill Bright's favorite verses. Dr. Bright was the president and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, and he loved Galatians, chapter 2, verse 20 – "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me." Now listen the last part of this verse – "And the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." Did you catch that? How does Lucy Wedemeyer do it? How does Charlie do it? They live their lives by faith in the Son of God who demonstrated His love for them and gave them a love for one another that has endured enormous suffering, and that same love can be yours in the circumstances that you're facing if you'll place your faith in the Son of God. Bob: Yes, I think of the verse that Mary Ann and I put on our wedding invitations from 1 John, chapter 4, verse 19. It says, "We love because He first loved us." And, really, the source of love for one another begins when we understand what real love is by experiencing God's love for us, and we experience God's love for us when we recognize that Jesus died to forgive our sins, to renovate and revolutionize our lives and to give us a hope. We'd like to invite out listeners – if you would like to know what it means to have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ and to experience the kind of love that Charlie and Lucy understand firsthand, we want you to invite you to contact us by calling 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329. When someone answers just say, "I want to know how to become a Christian," and there is a book we'd love to send you called "Pursuing God." It explains what it means for a person to have a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ and to experience God's love. Again, call 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and tell whoever answers that you'd like to become a Christian, and we're happy to send you a copy of the book, "Pursuing God." Let me also encourage you to visit our website, FamilyLife.com. When you get to the home page, if you click the box on the right side that says, "Today's Broadcast," that will take you to an area of the site where you can get more information about resources that are available through FamilyLife Today. We have a limited number of copies of a book called "Charlie's Victory" that tells Charlie and Lucy's story, and you can get more information about that book on our website at FamilyLife.com, or you can order a copy of it from us online. There are also additional resources designed to help you strengthen your marriage relationship. Dr. Gary Chapman has written a wonderful book called "Covenant Marriage," and it's in our FamilyLife Resource Center as well. Again, all the information about these resources can be found on our website, FamilyLife.com, or if you need additional help, call 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will answer any questions you have or make arrangements to have the resources you need sent to you. And when you do get in touch with us, will you keep in mind that FamilyLife Today is a listener-supported ministry, which means that folks like you are the ones who help make sure that FamilyLife Today can continue to be heard on this station and on other stations all across the country, and you do that by making a donation from time to time to help support this ministry. This month, when you make a donation of any amount, we would be honored to send you a copy of a 365-day devotional guide that Dennis and Barbara Rainey have written for husbands and wives called "Moments With You." This daily devotional brings you together as a couple around a verse from the Scripture. It helps you apply that verse in your marriage and gives you an opportunity to pray together each day. If you would like to receive a copy of the book, simply request it when you make a donation of any amount either on our website at FamilyLife.com, and if you're donating there, when you get to the keycode box on the donation form, type in the word "You," y-o-u, so that we know to send you a copy of the book, or you can make a donation over the phone. Call 1-800-FLTODAY and simply mention that you'd like a copy of the daily devotional, "Moments With You," by Dennis and Barbara Rainey. We're happy to send it to you as our way of saying thanks for your partnership with us, your financial support of this ministry. It means a lot to us, and we appreciate hearing from you. Well, we hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can be back with us on Monday when we're going to feature one of our favorite interviews of all time. We will hear from Dr. Robertson McQuilkin on Monday, and hear how he continued to love his life well following her diagnosis with Alzheimer's disease. I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. Have a great weekend, we'll see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Stranded in Shark Infested Waters (Part 1) - Ed Harrell

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 24:55

Listen to Part 1Listen to Part 2Listen to Part 3Listen to Part 4FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Out of the Depths Day 1 of 4 Guest: Ed Harrell From the Series: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis________________________________________________________________ Bob: Sixty years ago this week on the night of July 30, 1945, just weeks before the end of World War II, a Japanese submarine launched torpedoes that would sink the USS Indianapolis. Marine Ed Harrell was on board that night. Ed: When I actually left the ship, and there I prayed that somehow the Lord would see me through what lie ahead, and yet I had the foggiest idea that I'm going to be out there for four-and-a-half days. There's times when you pray, and there's times when you pray, and there is a difference. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 1st. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Of the nearly 1,200 men who were onboard the Indianapolis on that night only 317 survived. Ed Harrell was one of the survivors, and we'll hear his story today. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. Dennis? Dennis: Bob, I want you to imagine with me a pretty dramatic scene. Just consider yourself being 20 years old, you're a Marine, you're tough, you're physically fit, but you're alone, you're in the ocean, you've just lost your ship, and you and about 80 others are floating in the middle of the night in the ocean in lifejackets. We're going to hear a story – one of the most compelling stories I think I've ever heard from a gentleman who joins us on FamilyLife Today – one of the survivors of the USS Indianapolis. Bob: A man who doesn't have to imagine what you just described because he lived through it. Dennis: That's exactly right. Ed Harrell joins us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome to the broadcast, Ed. Ed: Thank you so much. It's a delight to be with you. Dennis: Ed is not only a survivor, but he was a businessman for 38 years. He's served as a member of the board of trustees at Moody Bible Institute, a great ministry. He and his wife Ola, who have been married since 1947 – that's a lot of years, that's a lot of years, live in Paris, Tennessee. They have two children, eight grandchildren, and four great-grandchildren. Ed: That's right. Dennis: You've lived quite a life, Ed, but you're one of the few, one of the few survivors of that tragedy. Take us back, first of all, to when you signed up. Why in the world did you sign up to be a Marine? It was 1943, is that right? Ed: That's right, 1943. I don't know that I can even know why I really did at the time, but I knew that the war was getting pretty close to home, it sounded to me. In fact, when I heard that the Japanese and the American forces were having quite a battle at Midway, I was thinking that Midway was maybe between San Francisco and Hawaii, and so I thought, you know, they're getting pretty close to America, so, actually, I had just finished my junior year in high school, and I volunteered then for the Marine Corps. Bob: You were 17, 18 years old? Ed: I was 18 when I – I actually became a Marine when I was 18. Bob: You know, Ed, my son is a junior in high school, and the thought of my son saying, "I'm going to sign up to be a Marine in the middle of this kind of conflict, as a parent, I'm not sure I'd endorse that plan. Were your parents behind it? Ed: Yes, I think they pretty much agreed. Dad pretty much agreed. They didn't necessarily want to see me leave, but they knew, too, the little Silvertone radio that we had was telling us quite a bit what was happening in the Pacific, and I didn't have much problem convincing them that I wanted to go. In fact, I have two grandsons in the Marine Corps today. Dennis: Do you remember that time when you said goodbye to your dad? Ed: I do. My dad was 37 or 39 years old, and I thought he was an old man then, but I told him goodbye at the bus station. Dennis: Did you hug? Ed: Yes, yes, we did. Dennis: Were there tears? Ed: There were some tears, there were some tears. Dennis: What did he say to you? Ed: I don't know that I can remember what he said, but I'm sure that the advice that he gave me, he was a fine Christian man, and I'm sure it was some good, solid advice that he was giving me. Bob: Why the Marines? Why did you pick them instead of the Army or the Navy or the Air Force? Ed: I wondered sometimes why if I picked the wrong one, but I really don't know. I even considered, after I got in the Marine Corps, that I would be a paratrooper. After I got through sea school, then they said – after I got through boot camp, they said, "You're going to sea school," and I didn't know what that meant, either, but I went through sea school, and then they said, "You're going aboard a large combatant ship," and so I waited, then, until the Indianapolis was in port and caught it at San Francisco. Dennis: Before you left to join the Marines, you made another decision that was a life-altering decision. Ed: Yes, I did. Yes, I did. On the 1st of August, 1943, already a Marine and yet hadn't shown up even for my boot camp, I went to church on that Lord's Day morning, and seeming the Lord was saying to me, "Your last chance, your last chance," and the preacher preached a message, and he gave an invitation, he pronounced the benediction, and I sat there, I knew that my heart was not right with the Lord, and knowing that I was going into combat soon that I had to get things right with the Lord. I know the pastor came back and sat down by me there. Everyone else had left the building except two people – one was my wife later to be, and my mother-in-law later to be, and they were back in the back of the building there praying, and the pastor turned to a Scripture, Acts 16:31, which simply says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved." He said, "Ed, do you believe that?" Well, I was brought up in a Christian home and Sunday school, church all the time, but really never trusted the Lord as my own personal Savior. And so he goes over that a time or two, and he said, "Ed, God who cannot lie, is making you a promise, and He simply says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the finished work of Christ on the cross for you, and He promises to save you." And then he would look at me and said, "Do you believe that?" And I said, "Yes, I believe that," and he said, "But does the Lord save you?" "No." Well, he went over it a time or two and there, in the quietness of that little pew there in the church, I trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. So later now, when I'm getting into the story of the actual sinking of the ship, I could really look back and rely on the faith and trust that I had in the Lord to care for me, even there in the water those days. Dennis: Yeah, in fact, there's a line in your book, which basically says this – "The same Jesus Christ who became my Savior was now going to be the same Jesus Christ who saved my life." Ed: That's right. When I actually left the ship, you know, abandoned the ship, I trusted the same Lord to take care of me there as I stepped over the railing and stepped into the water, and brought up in a Christ home and knew some Scripture. But the Lord brought to mind there as I was about to abandon ship and seeing many of the boys actually jumping on each other in a desperate rush to get off the ship, and I hung onto that rail for a little while, and I prayed and oftentime I say when I give talks is that there's times when you pray, and there's times when you pray, and there is a difference. And there I prayed that somehow the Lord would see me through what lie ahead, and yet I had the foggiest idea that I'm going to be out there for four-and-a-half days. But here from memory of His Word that he brought to mind – "Peace I give unto you not as the world give unto you, let not your heart to be troubled. Don't be afraid." And yet I'm scared to death. And as I left the ship, then I left with the assurance I felt – God didn't speak to me in any audible form in any way, but just the assurance that I had from repeating His Word back to my heart, I knew that He was going to care for me. Dennis: You did end up joining the Marines then, and you boarded the USS Indianapolis in San Francisco. Ed: In San Francisco. Dennis: At that point, you had not been to war, you had not been in any battles, but that was soon to change, wasn't it? Ed: That's right. Of course, to get aboard a large combatant ship like that, you know, that ship, you know, was 610 feet, 8 3/4 inches, and four or five stories high, and that's going to be my home, you know, for a time. And then after I got aboard, then to see all those big guns that I'm going to have to learn how to fire those things, and I think I say in my book the biggest gun that I'd ever fired was a double-barreled shotgun, and yet here I'm going to be firing five-inch guns and 40 millimeter guns, so I'll be trained to do those things. Then I was at Saipan – actually, I was at Enewetak and Kwajalein Islands there in the Marshalls, then the first, really, combat was at Saipan then at Tinian and at Guam. The sea battle of the Philippine Seas, that was at Palau, at Iwo Jima, at Okinawa, and later three air strikes on Tokyo and then, lastly, I was Marine guard that guarded the two atomic bomb – components of the bombs that we took over to our B-29 base on the island of Tinian. Bob: And you didn't know, when you got on board the Indianapolis in San Francisco Harbor, you didn't know what else was on board with you. You didn't know that you had … Ed: We did not know. Bob: … the two atomic bombs that were going to be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ed: We knew it was top-secret cargo. We understood, even, that the captain of the ship didn't know what we had; that he had been told that what he had, we needed to get it to the forward area – that every hour would save lives, and I was a guard that guarded – or, actually, I was a corporal of the guard, and I stationed guards both on the two places that we had the components of the bomb. Bob: San Francisco to Tinian – how long a trip is that in the water? Ed: We made a record speed run. We traveled those 5,400 or so miles in 10 days. Bob: Wow. Ed: So, can you imagine a heavy cruiser traveling, like, 32 miles an hour across the Pacific? So we made a record speed run to Tinian Island and got rid of our cargo. Dennis: And you got rid of the cargo, made the turn, and you were to participate with another ship? Ed: We received orders at CENPAC there in Guam, the Central Pacific Command, to proceed to the Philippines, but we were to – yes, we were to join up with the USS Idaho, I think, three days later, to make a gun re-practice as we went into the Philippines, because the main invasion of Japan was to take place in November of '45. Dennis: We're not going to go into the detail that surrounds, really, a great controversy about the USS Indianapolis, because some information was withheld about the enemy being in the waters – enemy subs – and you guys sailed into harm's way without realizing it. But you were in the process of making your way to join up with the USS Idaho, and it was really an uneventful trip. You weren't even going all that fast at that point, right? Ed: As I mentioned, we had traveled 32 knots going into Tinian, and then when we received orders then to go on to the Philippines, Captain McVay requested, or they gave him permission to travel only at 17 knots, to slow down, because we had nearly burned the motors up, you know, getting the cargo over. So we had slowed back to 17 knots going on to the Philippines. Dennis: You were one day away from connecting with the USS Idaho, and was it the middle of the night? Ed: Well, we were to have met them the next day in the daytime, but we encountered Commander Hoshimoto at about five minutes after midnight on the night of July 30, 1945. Bob: Now, where were you when that happened? Were you asleep in your bunk? Ed: No, the Indianapolis was a pretty modern ship, but we did not have air-conditioning, and in order to get any sleep at night, you went topside. So I was on watch 'til 12:00. At 12:00 I went to my locker, and I got my blanket, and I went topside, and I went up under the barrels of number 1 turret, and I took off my shoes and used kind of the arch of my shoe as a pillow, and I rolled up in my blanket, and it was about five minutes or so after midnight that the first explosion, we took the first torpedo. And about as long as it would take Commander Hoshimoto to say, "Fire one, fire two," and he fired six, but two of them hit us, and the first one cut the bow of the ship off. If you could see the picture of the ship, you could see that those barrels on number 1 turret, forward big 8-inch guns, they're about 18 feet long, and I'm sleeping right down on the deck under the barrels of those guns and looking forward of me, maybe 25, 30 feet or so, the bow of the ship is cut off – about 50 feet. Some said 65 feet, but I don't think it was that much. I think it was more of a 40 feet or so. The bow of the ship was cut off, so we became a funnel, then, as we were moving through the water, and then the second explosion then was aft of me, nearly midship and close to the marine compartment, and it made a big gaping hole. And, of course, since we had no air conditioning, we were traveling at a – you might say, at an open condition in that all of our bulkheads down below were open, and they had to be open or else we would suffocate without air conditioning. So that was a death blow, likewise, because as we were moving forward in the water, all of that water … Dennis: It just poured in the front. Ed: It was rushing in, and even before I could get back to my emergency station, which was back at midship, the bow of the ship is already under. I mean, the deck of the bow of the ship, like, the first 100 yards or so, is already under. Dennis: Was there still light on the ship at this point, or had the torpedoes knocked out the electricity. Ed: All the electricity was knocked out. Dennis: So you're in the middle of the night … Ed: But we had light in that there was an inferno below decks. They say that number 2 turret took a hit, and the magazine in number 2 turret had exploded and came through all the way up so that it was just a big fire, a big blaze, coming up through there. And then most other places below decks forward of midship was an inferno. And so you get a certain amount of light, you know, from that. Dennis: You said when the torpedoes hit, and the boat blew up, blew the front end off, that there was a huge amount of water that went up in the air, and it drenched you and ultimately kept you from burning up? Ed: I think two things – number one, of course, I believe in the providence of God, number one. I had the blanket around me, and that protected me, no doubt, maybe from much of the blast of the fire at the first explosion, and then all of the water, then, from that first explosion that went up in the air, I don't know I could imagine 50 to 100 feet plus, then all of that coming back down. Well, I was drenched, you know, with all the water, as it came back down, and that kind of protected me somewhat, I'm sure, from much of the flash burn that many were getting. Bob: Ed, when something like that happens, it's disorienting at first. You're thinking, "Did something explode down in the engine room," you're kind of trying to get your bearings. How long do you think it was before you realized, "We're under attack, we've been hit," and you caught a sense of what was going on? Ed: I think immediately when we were hit, I wondered, "We aren't firing at anyone," and then just those three explosions, and no one now is firing back at us. So we had to have either hit a mine or we had to have been hit by a torpedo. And then realizing nearly immediately that forward part of the ship was cut off, and I could hear the bulkheads breaking down below and they, to me, were a death blow. You could imagine, you know, with all that water, with the ship still moving 17 knots or so, and the funnel there coming – all of the water coming in, and the bulkheads breaking, you knew that the ship was doomed, and as I began to make my way, then, back to my emergency station, which was back to midship, and there were those that were coming from internally coming out, and that part of the ship, really, was kind of the officers' quarters up there. Many of those were in the flash burns, and as they came out, literally, flesh was hanging from their face and from their arms, and they were in panic and begging for someone to give them some help. But, you know, that's not my responsibility, and I have to make my way to my emergency station, which was on the quarterdeck. And, of course, when I get to the quarterdeck, then, I'm realizing that the ship is already under forward part, and there's no question that it's sinking. So as word actually came to abandon ship, I had made my way to the port side, and there on the quarterdeck, there's a steel cable, a rail, as we call it, and I got ahold of the rail, and I hung on there and said my prayer, you know, before I actually stepped over the rail and stepped about two big, long steps and jumped into the water feet first. My kapok jacket then came up over my head. If you could visualize that the deck of the ship now is listing so that you step over, and you walk down the keel of the ship, walk down the side of ship, and so I could have nearly walked to the water, but I walked down closer to the water, and then jumped in feet first and then began to come up and push that oil back that was on the water and then to try to get my head up above that, and then swam away from the ship about maybe 50 yards, and then we began to congregate, you know, in little groups. The ship had still been moving, so boys had been getting off maybe for two or three or four minutes. I actually watched the ship as she went under. Bob: Did you think this was it for you? Ed: I wondered, and yet I really felt – and I don't say this in any boasting way of any kind, but I really had the assurance that somehow, some way, that I would make it. Dennis: You felt like God … Ed: I felt assurance that – "Don't be afraid, don't be afraid. I'm with you," and I think when you hear all of my story, you'll see the various times that He came to my assurance that "I'm still with you," all the way through – the different things that happened for the next three days. Bob: Yes, and we're going to hear the rest of your story over the next couple of days. Of course, it is told in the book that you've written called "Out of the Depths," which is a compelling story of God's faithfulness in the midst of remarkable adversity, and I want to encourage our listeners, you can get a copy of the book from us when you contact us here at FamilyLife. Go to our website at FamilyLife.com. Down at the bottom of the screen there's a button there that says, "Go." You click on that button, it will take you right to a page where you can find information about ordering Ed's book. Again, it's called "Out of the Depths." We also have our conversation this week with Ed Harrell available on CD. We also have a book that our friend, Chip Ingram, has written that is a reflection on pivotal chapters from the Psalms where David experienced the same thing that you've talked about, Ed, which is the presence of God in the midst of trial and adversity. He's written a book called "I Am With You Always." It's a book that reminds us that the Lord is faithful to hear the cry of our heart; that He is there for us in times of great trial like you experienced. In fact, any of our listeners who wanted to get your book and Chip's book together, we'd send them the CD that has our conversation with you. We'd send it along at no additional cost. Again, go to our website, FamilyLife.com, click the "Go" button at the bottom of the screen. That will take you right to the page where there is more information. Or call 1-800-FLTODAY. That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and we've got folks on our team who will be happy to let you know how you can have these resources sent to you. You know, speaking of resources, Dennis, one of the most requested resources we've had in our FamilyLife Resource Center this year has been two CDs from a conversation you and I had with Shaunti Feldhahn. She wrote a book called "For Women Only." It was based on the research she had done, conversations with more than 1,000 men about the deepest needs and the deepest longing in men's hearts. And that conversation really resonated with a number of our listeners. This month we are making that two-CD set available to any of our listeners who would contact us in August to make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today. It's our way of saying thank you for helping to support this ministry. We are listener-support, and it's your donations that keep us on the air in this city and in cities all across the country. So this month, if you can go online to make a donation or call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation, just mention that you'd like the CD set for women. In fact, if you're donating online, when you get to the keycode box just type in "CD," those two letters, and we'll know that you want to have these CDs sent to you. Again, our website is FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation, and we appreciate you standing with this ministry financially. Well, tomorrow we're going to begin to hear the story of how Ed Harrell and others survived for four days afloat in the Pacific. I hope our listeners can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 3) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2020 28:58

A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 1) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 2) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 3) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 4) - Nancy Leigh DeMossA Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 5) - Nancy Leigh DeMossFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Responding to Your Husband Day 3 of 5 Guest: Nancy Leigh DeMoss From the series: A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood Bob: A lot of women bristle at the idea of submission, which is talked about in the Bible. In some cases, that's because the concept has been abused or misapplied. Nancy Leigh DeMoss says one reason women bristle is because they haven't wrestled with the concept of surrendering to God and His purposes. Nancy: Proverbs tells us that the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, and the Lord turns the heart of that king as the rivers of water. The greatest evidence of how big I believe God is, is my willingness to trust God to work through authority that He's placed in my life and to give Him time to change the heart of that authority. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, June 18th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey. A lot of women and men struggle with the idea of submission and what that ought to look like in our lives. Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition of our broadcast. I was remembering, Dennis, the advertising campaign, that came out in the – oh, the early '70s for the Virginia Slims brand of cigarettes – "You've Come a Long Way, Baby," you remember that jingle? Dennis: I do. Bob: And they used to sing in that jingle – "You've come a long way, you've got your own cigarette now, baby, you've come a long, long way," and I remember laughing at that , thinking, "Boy, that's a real sign of progress, huh? When somebody finally has their own brand of cigarette, they've really come a long way. And yet over the last 30 or 40 years, we have looked at what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman, it's all been in the context of coming a long way and digging ourselves out of our repressive past into our liberated future. Dennis: And, of course, in order to do that, a woman has got to roar. Bob: That's right, that's right. Dennis: And so between cigarettes and roaring, we have redefined what it means to be a woman, and we're laughing about this here, but you know what? It really is sad. That definition and that roaring has occurred to great harm and detriment within the Christian community as we attempt to raise our daughters and, for that matter, our sons, with a true biblical imprint of God's image in them as male and as female. And with us to help us perhaps counter that culture with a biblical portrait of what it means to be a woman, today on the broadcast, is Nancy Leigh DeMoss. Nancy is a speaker to women's groups. In fact, she has done that for the past 20 years, and this is a life message for you, isn't it, Nancy? Nancy: I just consider it an exciting challenge today to help women see that there is so much more that God has for us than perhaps what we've been enjoying. Bob: Well, and you get to do that every day on your daily radio program, "Revive Our Hearts," which is heard on many of the same stations that carry FamilyLife Today. And you've done it through your writing, through the bestselling book, "Lies Women Believe," the Study Guide, "Seeking Him," the trilogy of books on surrender and holiness and brokenness that you've written and, this fall, you're going to be having an opportunity to challenge women on this very subject at a conference, a national conference you're doing in Chicago that is called True Woman '08." My wife is planning to be there and really looking forward to it. Let me ask you – as we're talking about this subject of the differences between men and women, you really believe that there is a lot of confusion among Christians, both men and women, on this subject because of the messages we're getting from the culture, right? Nancy: Well, look around and see the dynamics of our culture are rooted in the twin vices of selfishness and rebellion. Our culture is rooted in self-seeking, self-assertiveness, self-exaltation, selfishness – self-centeredness and rebellion. We dislike authority. We don't want to live under authority and, as women, this has been especially destructive as the feminist movement has built its case on self-seeking, self-assertiveness, and rebellion against authority. God's Word, on the other hand, teaches us the way of surrender, submission to Christ as Lord, and then to those of human authorities that God places in our lives. Surrender versus rebellion and the way of love – being a giver rather than a taker, not self-seeking but self-denying. Dennis: Let's look at some important parts of this portrait of what it means to truly biblically feminine, of what God wants you to be as a woman. Where do we begin as we look at this portrait? Nancy: We talked yesterday about the woman as a responder and the man as an initiator. This becomes obvious to us as we go back again to the Genesis record and see what God designed for the man and for the woman, and then how the man and the woman distorted and perverted that design. God made the man and said to the man, "Here is your responsibility. Have dominion, subdue the earth, rule over it, be the king of the earth." Then God gave to the man a helper, a woman, likewise created in the image of God but different than the man, made to complete him not to compete with him, and said to her, "You are to help him fulfill this responsibility." Then when we come to the serpent entering the scene, we find the first illustration of role reversal. It's interesting that the serpent comes to the woman. God had given the instruction to the man, but Satan comes to the woman independent of the man and challenges her to take the initiative; to find her declaration of independence. To say, "I will make my own decision, I will be my own god." He challenges her to step out from under the protection, the authority of her husband, and then when she gives the fruit to her husband, and he eats, he likewise is abdicating the headship, the responsibility for initiative that God has given to him. And from that point on, we find man and woman in a power struggle. The woman, driven to control, to initiate, to be the head, to lead, and the man either passive or abusive but not fulfilling the God-given responsibility to initiate, which is not a consequence of the Fall but precedes the Fall that God ordained the man to be the leader, the head, the initiator. The woman, by taking that role into her own hands in a sense emasculated the man. Bob: That's interesting. You're saying that Eve could have said to the Serpent, "I want to check this out with my husband. Wait right here." She could have gone to Adam whether he was standing there or not, but she could have looked at him and said, "Should we do this?" Nancy: What does the Scripture say in the New Testament? If a woman has a question, let her ask her husband. And I hear women so often today, "My husband doesn't know the Word of God. I'm the woman, I've been sitting in the Bible studies listening to speakers and going to seminars. My husband doesn't know all these things." And I say to women, you'd be amazed if, with a learner's heart, a teachable spirit, a humble attitude, you are to begin to ask your husband questions, and he saw himself as being needed by you, how he might be motivated and prompted to begin to take initiative to learn the heart and the ways of God in these areas. Dennis: Today, Nancy, within the Christian community, there are those who would express that a woman shouldn't come back to her husband and ask him a question. In fact, there are those who would even take issue with command for a wife to submit to her husband. They would really have a problem with that. Nancy: Dennis, the entire universe created by God is structured in authority and submission relationships. The Trinity itself models for us what it means for there to be authority and submission. We see God the Father, who deeply loves His Son, and we see the Son saying, "I have come to this earth not to do my own will but to do the will of my Father." We see Jesus, who was co-equal, co-eternal with God the Father, voluntarily placing Himself under the authority of His Heavenly Father so that the plan of redemption can be accomplished. So for a woman to come under the authority of her husband, under the authority of male leadership in the church, is not to be less than equal but is to say I am willing to function according to the design of God so that His purposes can be fulfilled in this earth. Dennis: And I don't want the moms and the dads who are raising the next generation of daughters and, for that matter, sons, to miss the profound statement that Nancy just made. She is saying we've got to train our daughters to understand the importance of God's created order and of authority and of submitting to authority and that authority is not wrong. Nancy: And it is not negative. You've got to come to see that authority, in whatever realm of life – employer, employee, elders, church leadership, and authority in the home – that these are God's means of providing protection for the lives of those who come under that authority. I had an experience a number of years ago that illustrated this to me in a helpful way. At the time, I was traveling a great deal, and I was serving in a ministry where the authorities, the leadership in the ministry, had said that I should not fly in a single-engine airplane at night. I loved flying, and I didn't care whether it was single-engine or twin-engine, but it wasn't an issue to me, but they felt that it was not wise for anyone to be flying in a single-engine airplane at night. If the one engine you had went out, that was it. Well, that didn't cramp my style too much. It wasn't often the case that that would be necessary, but I found myself one time traveling in one of those states that nobody uses, where nothing is near anything, and we had a very difficult itinerary, just one seminar to the next from one small town to the next over the period of a week. And one of those days – I called in advance, as we were making the arrangement, and I said to the man who was setting up the logistics, "Now, I just need to let you" – he said, "We may need to charter a plane at some point to get us from one of these towns to the next where there is no commercial service available." I said, "Well, that's fine, but you need to understand that I can't fly in a single-engine airplane at night." Well, he told me that would be fine. He asked me if I was afraid to fly in a single-engine airplane at night, and I said, "No, that wasn't the case but that I was under authority." Well, we got to the airport on one of those particular days, and there was one airplane at that airport, and it had one engine, and it was night. And I said, "Carl, I can't go up in that plane." He said, "It's the only plane we have." I said, "Well, we can't go." He said, "It will cost us a lot more to charter something different." I said, "Well, we'll have to pay or we can't go." And he tried to reason with me that there was no reason for me to be afraid to go up in that single-engine airplane at night. They had a good pilot; he felt it was a safe plane. I said, "You know, Carl, that's not the issue. I'm a woman under authority, and if I go up in that single-engine airplane tonight, out from under authority, I'm not safe. And if you go up with me, you're not safe, either." And, you know, he understood that. And the question, then, I raise is, well, does that mean if I go up in that single-engine airplane that it's going to crash – probably not, I don't know. But when you live under authority, it doesn't really matter. You say, "Does a twin-engine airplane never crash?" Yes, sometimes they do. So you say, "What's the difference?" Well, in my mind, the difference is if a plane goes down, and I'm under authority, then I have the confidence that I'm right in the middle of God's will for my life. But if I step out from under that covering and that protection that God has provided for me, then I make myself vulnerable to the realm, the influence, the attacks of Satan himself, which is why the Scripture says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Because in stepping out from under God's protection and the authority he has placed into our lives, we open up our lives to the attack, the realm, the influence of Satan himself, and that's a dangerous place to be. Bob: In that moment, did you wrestle at all with the reasonableness of the restriction? You're standing alone at the airport. There is one plane. You've got a mission to accomplish, you're trying to share the Gospel. Did you think to yourself, "This was not a reasonable request in the first place, and maybe just this once I ought to violate it because it doesn't appear like we have any other options?" Nancy: I'm sure, although it was many years ago, I'm sure I did feel some of that at the time, and I know I have felt that way in many other instances. But then I have to come back to what is the purpose of my life? It's to glorify God. How do I glorify God? By obedience to His Word and His ways, and so many issues are simplified in my life if I will just go back to the Scripture and say, "What is God's way? What is God's pattern?" Not, "Do I like this? Am I comfortable with it? Does it make sense to me?" But Jesus is Lord, so what does that mean for my life and for all of us in relationships where there is authority that has been established by God. That means the willingness to bow, to surrender my will, and to say, "Not my will, but Your will be done." Dennis: Nancy, there are some of our listeners who are married to husbands who are not spiritual at all. They don't trust their husbands' reasoning, his rationale, why he decided to do what he's done. He's trying to take our kids fishing on Sunday morning; doesn't want them to go to church – not just one Sunday but Sunday after Sunday after Sunday. Is there any appeal in that situation? Nancy: Well, certainly, there is, and let me back up to what you said – the woman does not trust her husband's reasoning. Ultimately, as women, our trust is not in that husband or that man, but our trust is in God. This is what 1 Peter 3 talks about – the holy women of old who trusted in God, and then it gives Sarah as an illustration. Because she trusted in God, she obeyed her husband, Abraham, calling him "lord." That's a pretty strong term, and we don't like that today, but she gave to him under – it was lowercase "L," lord, not capital "L." God is Lord with a capital "L," but because her trust was in God the Lord, then she was able to obey her husband, to call him lord, little "L," and at times Abraham made decisions for his family that, at times, were not wise. Dennis: In fact, they were deceptive. He asked Sarah to lie. Nancy: But Sarah found protection, and 1 Peter 3 tells us freedom from fear because her heart was to obey her husband. Now, scripturally, we are not to sin in obeying an authority, and that's where, if we believe that authority is giving us direction that is clearly contrary to the Word of God, not just contrary to our personal preferences or feelings about things, but contrary to the Word of God that would cause us to sin, then we walk through the process of appeal. And I think many of us don't have the patience to be willing to wait on God to change the heart of the authority. You see, Proverbs tells us that the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, and the Lord turns the heart of that king as the rivers of water. The greatest evidence of how big I believe God is, is my willingness to trust God to work through authorities that He's placed in my life and to give Him time to change the heart of that authority. I may be a part of that process by going to the authority, making an appeal, but even as we do, I think it's so important that our spirit be one of humility. Those who are parents know that when your child comes to you and says, "You've told me to do this, but I don't agree. You're off the wall, get off my back, I'm not going to do this." Well, the parent is going to tend to stiffen in response to an attitude like that on the part of a teenager. But can you imagine one of your daughters, Dennis, coming to you and saying, "Dad, I know that you have my best interests at heart, and I know that you want what is best for my life, but I prayed about this decision, and I sense that perhaps God is giving me a different direction. I'm going to obey what you've said, but would you be willing to reconsider, to think this through and to pray this through and see if God would give you a different answer." Well, you're going to fall on the floor first, and then, because of a humble and obedient spirit in that teenager, you're going to be willing to go back to the Lord and to say, "Did I really get the right direction here?" Bob: Is it okay, Nancy for a woman to be an active receiver? And here is what I mean by that – sometimes Mary Ann will come to me, and she'll say, "I need your help on something. I need you to think this through and let me know what you think I ought to do." And I'll say, "Okay, I'll do that. I'll pray about that, and I'll do that." And then I kind of set it aside, get distracted, don't really think about it. A couple of days later she may come back to me and say, "You remember that issue? I still need your help on that, and I'm looking for your direction." She is nudging me … Nancy: She is being your helper. Bob: Yes, she is. Nancy: This is what God made her to be. But I think, as women, we need to be careful that in doing that, we don't intimidate, and we have to know, as women, what is the heart, what are the needs, how can we best serve and help the men that God's placed us under? Bob: Yeah, I brought that up, Dennis, because I appreciate my wife coming back and nudging me a second or a third time, because I do get distracted, and just as Nancy said, she is being my helper when she asks me to initiate. Dennis: I think a lot of people listen to conversations like we're having here, and they equate responder and submission to weakness and to being a pushover. Nancy: Well, let me say this – the Scripture does say that the woman is the weaker vessel. Dennis: Well, she may be weaker physically, but in her role, she's powerful. Nancy: She's powerful by fulfilling the role of the responder and the one who comes under authority. Bob: Exactly. Dennis: And the question I wanted to get to right here is a friend of mine who has got a daughter who is college – she is stout, she is strong. Now, she's still a woman, and she's still a weaker vessel, that's not the issue here. But she is very gifted, a leader, and I think you can probably identify with this, Nancy. She has a lot of abilities, but she is a girl, she is a woman. And my friend, who is her father, is attempting to raise her to be God's woman, and he is struggling with how do I raise this young lady to be all that God intended while possessing these public gifts, these leadership gifts? Are you saying, by being a responder, that you can't be a leader? Nancy: We're not saying that God is asking women not to utilize the strengths and the gifts that He has given to them but to do so within the framework of acknowledging that God made that husband or that father or that male leadership in the church to have the primary responsibility for leading, and that her role is in helping him, assisting him, coming under his covering and protection. Now, the wise man will receive input and will maximize the gifts, the abilities, that God has given to his wife, but, see, we're also operating on a very 20th century and Western mindset that we have a right to exercise all of our gifts and that our purpose in life is to fulfill all of our gifts. My purpose in life is not to fulfill all my gifts. My purpose in life is to bring glory to God. And if, at times, that means that God's will is that some of those gifts and strengths be put on the shelf or not be as noticed or as utilized. It's up to God. I am surrendered to be used however God would be most glorified, and that may mean that I'm not at the forefront, that I'm not taking the leadership or the reigns if God would receive more glory through that. Bob: And if that's going to happen, it means that women are going to have to be taking their cues not from the culture but from the Scriptures. They are going to have to be renewing their mind on the truth of God's Word and what God has to say about what it means to be a woman and not taking their cues from the magazines that are in the racks at the supermarket as you're checking out. Nancy, you've written on this subject in a variety of settings. You wrote a little booklet called "A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood," that tens of thousands of women have read and passed on and have found very helpful. We've got in our FamilyLife Resource Center , and it's available to our listeners if you'd like to get a copy. Then you've also written a bestselling book called "Lies Women Believe and the Truth That Sets Them Free," along with a variety of books – a book on surrender, a book on holiness, a book on brokenness, a study guide called "Seeking Him, Experiencing the Joy of Personal Revival." We have a number of your books in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and if our listeners are interested in getting more information about what's available, the easiest thing to do is go to our website, which is FamilyLife.com. On the right side of the screen, you'll see a box that says "Today's Broadcast," and if you click where it says "Learn More," that will take you to an area of the site where you can get more information about the resources Nancy has written. You can order them from our website, FamilyLife.com, or if it's easier to call 1-800-FLTODAY and place an order over the phone, you can do that as well. Again, the website is FamilyLife.com, the toll-free number is 1-800-FLTODAY, and then don't forget the conference that is coming up in Chicago in October – October 8th through the 11th. It's a national conference for women called True Woman '08, and it features a number of speakers including Nancy Leigh DeMoss and Barbara Rainey, Joni Eareckson Tada, Janet Parshall, Pastor John Piper is going to be speaking there, Keith and Kristin Getty are going to be leading the worship at the conference, and it looks like it is on the way to being a sellout event. So if our listeners are interested, they ought to register as quickly as they can. Again, our website is FamilyLife.com, and there is a link there that will take you to the True Woman '08 website where you can get registered and plan to attend this two-and-a-half-day national conference for women in Chicago in October. And I want to be quick to add here that women are not alone in terms of confusion about what it means to be what God created you to be. Men are struggling with this as well, and this month we've been making available a CD for our listeners on the subject of masculinity and understanding it biblically and keeping it in biblical balance. It's a message from our friend, Stu Weber, that we call "Applied Masculinity." Stu is a pastor and a retired Army Ranger, a Green Beret, and this message is a terrific message for men. We're making it available this month when you help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount. Because we are listener-supported, these donations are essential to keep our program on the air on this station and on other stations all across the country. So we hope you'll consider making a donation, and if you'd like to receive the CD with the message from Stu Weber, as you fill out your donation form on the Internet, just type the word "Stu" in the keycode box. That's s-t-u – again, you'll see a box that says "Keycode," and you just type s-t-u in there, or call 1-800-FLTODAY. You can make a donation over the phone. Again, it's 1-800-358-6329. When you make your donation just mention that you'd like a copy of the CD form Stu Weber called "Applied Masculinity," and we're happy to send it out to you. We really do appreciate your financial partnership with us here in the ministry of FamilyLife Today. Tomorrow we're going to continue to look at what it means to be God's woman according to God's Word with our guest, Nancy Leigh DeMoss. We hope you can be back with us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 3) - Chris and Cindy Beall

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 3, 2020 28:40

Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 1) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 2) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 3) - Chris and Cindy BeallFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing Hope Guest: Chris and Cindy Beall From the series: Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New Bob: Rebuilding a broken marriage is not a simple process; it's not a painless process. But Chris Beall—who is doing it—says it is a worthwhile process to go through. Chris: You're walking through a betrayal—you don't know the where to go. The best thing you can do for other people is not tell a story but live a story. It's not time for you to focus on helping other people. Every day you're going to choose to forgive the other person, you are writing a sentence in a paragraph of a story that years from now will be worth telling—and we do that by submitting to God at every moment of this process of healing. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, August 30th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. If there has been damage done to your marriage, there is a path forward—and it's a path worth walking. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I sent out a tweet a while back and I got a response to it. I'm thinking maybe our guests could help—knowing how I should respond to the response. The tweet I sent out said—it was from when Gary Thomas was here and we were talking about cherishing and what it means to cherish one another in marriage. I said, “Cherishing another person means I'm going to look out for your interests as more important than my own.” The tweet I got back was from somebody who said, “How do you get there with a lying, betraying husband who has no idea what passion or intimacy is?” I don't know how to answer that in 140 characters—I don't think you can answer that in 140 characters—but it's a very real issue for a lot of people thinking, “How do I fulfill my vows? How do I love and trust and cherish another person when they are a lying, betraying individual?” 2:00 Dennis: That really is a good question—and I'm glad we have the guests that we have on FamilyLife Today. Bob: So we're off the hook! Dennis: Chris— Bob: So, we'll let them answer it! Dennis: Chris and Cindy Beall join us again on the broadcast. Welcome back. Chris and Cindy: Thank you! Dennis: Chris is a pastor at Life Church in Oklahoma City. Cindy is an author of a book called, Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New—and Cindy, you're the expert on this because this is what you've done. Cindy: One of the things that people often say is, “Well, I'm going to do this to them because they are doing this to me”—so through revenge they are getting back at someone. I believe that when we get back at someone, the first person that we're hurting is God. If Chris sins against me and then I then turn around and say, “I'm going to go cheat on him.” I've wounded the heart of God first—I have broken covenant with Him first—and then I might hurt my husband. For me, I would say to that woman—or to anyone—you've got to do the right thing regardless of someone else's actions. 3:00 That's it. Someone else's sinful life does not give me the right to sin against my God. That's where I lived. It's not easy. It's very challenging, and I can't say I did it 100% perfect all the time—but I don't want to break my God's heart—I don't want to do that. Bob: You've had the opportunity, over that last half dozen years, to sit down with lots of couples who have gone through what you lived through. What you lived through was years of your husband looking at pornography—ultimately that lead to affairs outside of marriage—he fathered a son. You didn't know any of this. He finally comes clean. You have to decide—“Am I going to stay with him? Am I going to try to rebuild this marriage? Can I ever trust him again?”—all of these things facing you. When you sit down with these couples today, they are at a place that you were at, where there is a road in front of them. 4:00 You can pick one path and that's a path that can feel like it will cause the pain to stop right away—or you can pick the other path which feels like this is going to take me right into the pain. What kind of hope do you give them and how do you point them in a God-ward direction? Cindy: The first thing, I think— just the fact that maybe it's the four of us—maybe it's a couple and Chris and me. I think the fact just seeing us brings them some hope—just the fact that we've lived through it. So when I'm faced with that question a lot of women will say, “What should I do?” Honestly, I cannot make that decision for them. I tell them, “You don't you have to decide the rest of your life today.” I steal that little phrase from my friend Kevin. 5:00 But I also just encourage them, “Look, whatever path you take is going to hurt. Where is God leading you? Let the peace of God be your guide.” If you've got a spouse that is willing to do whatever it takes—you're willing to lay your life down and rebuild this. Consider this path. If you've got a spouse that's still with someone else, or is acting like all this is your fault. Then you might have to play some hardball there, and show some tough love. Dennis: I'm just thinking of the command in Genesis 2, that says, “for this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, shall cleave to one another, and the two shall become one.” If you had not made a covenant between three—a man, and a woman, and their God—there's no way this marriage would be standing today. Chris: Right! Dennis: There wouldn't be a title of a book, Rebuilding a Marriage Better—Better!— Than New. Chris: Right. Dennis: The covenant of Almighty God gave you the standard to make this work. 6:00 Chris: Right. One thing that we experienced several years back—I'll set the scenario, but it's super-relevant—almost four years ago, our house burned down. We are going through this process of, “Okay we've lost everything, we have to rebuild. We've got to replace everything.” Our insurance company—that was amazing, I will tell you—they said, “We're going to pay to rebuild your house, but we don't think your foundation is damaged, so we're not going to pay to replace it.” In our office when we meet with couples—we see this every day—there's some huge catastrophe in their marriage and they want a new house but they are unwilling to replace the old foundation. So how do we communicate? There are behaviors that we've got to go past the foundation and create a new normal. Dennis: What you're saying is, it's not a matter of slapping a new coat of paint— Chris: Right. Dennis: —on a house that is rotting. Chris: Right. Dennis: But you've got to start with the right foundation. 7:00 I just have to say here, this is why the Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway is so important for couples. I was driven to the airport by a guy whose son and a young lady are getting ready to get married. I told him and I said, “Give your son and your future daughter-in-law the very best wedding gift they will ever receive because it will help them turn their marriage license into a marriage—into a real marriage—” Chris: Right! Dennis: “—into one that is built on the right foundation.” It's very practical—talking about how two imperfect people—from the start—can build a single structure—together—off the same set of blueprints. Give them the conference, the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway as a gift—it will pay off for decades. The guy nodded his head and said, “You know, I'm going to talk to my wife about that tonight because we want their marriage to go the distance.” 8:00 Bob: There's information about the Weekend to Remember online at FamilyLifeToday.com if our listeners are interested. If you have not been—you really ought to check it out. Dennis: And it's not just for engaged couples. Bob: No, and that's right! It's always good to take the marriage in for a little preventive maintenance; right? Dennis: We had a couple recently attend who'd been married 60 years. Bob: Yes. Dennis: They felt it was time for an oil change and a tune-up. There you go!! Bob: I think one of the things that you two have learned in the rebuilding process of your marriage is that as you've invested in other peoples' marriages—God has used that to strengthen the bond between the two of you; right? —Talk about that. Cindy: It is the best part of our story that when we share with others—when we help them with the same help that was given to us—2 Corinthians 1:3-4—when we do that—it's like we heal more. 9:00 Like with each couple we visit with—with each woman I talk with on the phone, or have a FaceTime conversation or meet for coffee—with each conversation, God is redeeming that marriage bit by bit. What's funny is I love our marriage where it is. We're best friends! We're very healthy—that's the word I use to describe our marriage—very healthy. Not “perfect”, not “good”, not “great”—healthy and strong. What's fun is that it's getting better, because we're going to invest—we are going to continue to steward our story and share and help others so it's just going to get better. Chris: I'd say for—say for any listener that's in the early stages of just trying to figure out—you're walking through a betrayal, you don't know where to go—the best thing you can do for other people, is not tell a story—but live a story. It's not time for you to focus on helping other people. 10:00 Every day that you walk through a trigger that hits you or you're going to choose to forgive the other person, you're writing a sentence in a paragraph of a story that years from now will be worth telling. You don't need to be focused on telling your story but you need to be focused on writing that story. We do that by submitting to God in every moment of this process of healing. Bob: I agree with you—I do think though there are some couples who think, “Well, we could never try to reach out and help others because our marriage isn't perfect.” Chris: Right. Bob: That leaves a lot of people never reaching out and helping anybody— Chris: Right. Bob: —because our marriages are never perfect. At what level of health—where do you need to get to health-wise before you can start to say, “I think maybe we can speak into somebody else's life?” Chris: Early on it wasn't us looking for people to help it was people coming to us. If we felt like we were at least one step ahead of them— Dennis: There you go! Chris: Here we go! Let's go! We can offer you—here's what we're doing, we're on the road too—we're not experts. In these latter days it's been much more where we're looking to pro-actively help people. 11:00 But for the most part of this 15 years, people would come to us, “Hey, I heard you're going through this”—if we really felt like that was a step ahead. That pretty much pertains to every person listening to this—you are a step ahead of someone. Cindy: Someone. Bob: That's right—and somebody is a step ahead of you. Chris: Correct. Bob: If you can be in a cycle where you're learning from those who are a step ahead of you and you are helping those who are a step behind you. That's how the church is supposed to work—that's what this is supposed to look like; right? Chris: Absolutely! Pauls and Timothys! We each have somebody pouring into us and we each have people that we are pouring into—absolutely! Dennis: You had somebody who invested in you in the early months after the bombshell went off in your marriage. Cindy: Yes, Jim and Beth Kuykendall—we cannot speak more highly of them. There are not enough words in the dictionary to talk about how amazing they are. Without their input we would just have been a hot mess. 12:00 Chris: Jim and Beth—for the first 30 days—every night—were sitting on our living room floor. There was just this invasive commitment to—“We're going to do life together”—and, “As you guys face things—just today—we're going to process them and speak of life over you—we're going to go to God's word, every single night.” That may not be realistic for everyone, but that had such a huge impact—not just in the counsel that they gave, but just the relational presence—knowing that they had walked through a similar story. We have a physical example of hope sitting right in front of us on our couch. Bob: Chris—I have to ask because it's been 15 years now since the story was told. Prior to that time you had been ensnared with pornography and where that led you—the temptation can't have just gone completely away. Over the last 15 years to where you go, yes, you know, I've felt that for a long time and I just never feel it anymore. Chris: I'm all good! I'm fixed! 13:00 Bob: So what's the difference between the temptation today and what it used to be? Chris: How I would answer that is that I am free—but I am not fixed. I'm a human being, I'm imperfect—I have a sin nature just like everyone else. So I am free. I am not a slave to this sin and I haven't been for 15 years—but I am tempted just like everyone else. I‘ll give you an example. I have learned to see the temptations and respond a little bit more quickly to them. In fact, it wasn't all that long ago, that a young lady that came up to me—a precious young lady—attractive. “Pastor Chris, you've changed my life. I think you could really help me sort through some things in my life.” In that moment, I've got a little bit of warning signs going off—so I called Cindy. “Hey, this just happened to me.” Then I brought my staff—my entire team—I said, “Hey, I want you to keep your eyes on me. If there is anything that you ever see that seems off—intercept it.” 14:00 It wasn't even like an inappropriate conversation on behalf of this girl—it was completely innocent—but it was like just maybe the beginning seed of a temptation that the moment I acknowledged it—and had a conversation with Cindy and my team—it was gone. So I do my best to kind of predict, “Where is the enemy going to come after me?” I am just going to be overly honest when those temptations come. Keeping it in the dark is like a Petri dish for sin to grow. The moment we bring it into the light I just think that is where the power of healing happens. We do have a spiritual enemy! I believe that in those moments—“I can't, I don't have it in there, I‘m going to have to find a different avenue.” Dennis: I believe it's in Genesis chapter 4 where it talks about sin— Chris: Crouching. Bob: Crouching at your door? Dennis: Crouching at your door. Chapter 4:7. What I just want every listener—male and female—to know—it may not be pornography. 15:00 I don't know what it is—what your Achilles heel is—but I can promise you—in fact, yesterday when I stepped out of my house, I thought, “I'm stepping out of a safe place.” Not that there isn't sin able to get its way into our house—there is—but I'm stepping into the world where there is a spiritual battle occurring. We don't see what's taking place. Interestingly a friend sent me a link—and I don't know what my friend was really thinking but I clicked on it and it didn't take long to realize, “This is not a good place to be.” I clicked off and went away. I still think I owe my friend an email back to say, “Why did you send that to me?” By the way, there's a lot of stuff flipped around on the internet and posted in all kinds of places—just be wise. 16:00 You may be throwing something to someone and it may be his or her Achilles heel—spiritually speaking. Chris: The spirit and the flesh—the Bible says—are at war for what is going to be dominant in their lives. The Holy Spirit wants to be that which propels us and leads every part of our lives—but if the things that we're feeding our mind and our time are the things of the flesh—we're going to be dominated by the flesh. We just have to be very aware that the more we can starve our flesh and feed the things that the Spirit in us craves, those temptations will minimize. They don't go away—but they will minimize. Bob: Most of us are way too casual in our daily battle with sin. Chris: Agreed. Bob: We walk around like there is not a war going on—we walk around like we're in complete safety—and we get ambushed when we do that. Chris: Right. Bob: As opposed to walking around with the alert system on—your alert system that goes— 17:00 “Okay—this is just a seed here—but a seed can grow into something if I don't deal with it right now.” Dennis: I want to encourage our listeners—every listener who is a follower of Jesus Christ is an ambassador—an ambassador you have a message and a mission. I want to read to you a little bit of your mission and message found in Isaiah 61. If you haven't read the first eight to ten verses of this passage of Scripture you ought to read it because I've thought of this all week as we've interviewed you two—how you guys are really like something that's described in here—I'll get to that in a moment. Here's what it says about our message and our mission: “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, — 18:00 to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; and to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor—” It goes on to talk about some other matters and then it says: “that they may be called”—and this is what I thought of you two—“oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. They shall build up the ancient ruins; they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities,”—listen to this last phrase—“the devastations of many generations.” Chris: Wow! Dennis: You two are oaks of righteousness—you are providing shade for couples who've gone through the valley and they're in need of someone saying, “You can do it!” 19:00 Chris: Wow! Dennis: The church is there. We will come along side you, we will pray for you, we will minister to you and future generations are at stake. Bob: Tell our listeners about the dinner you had not long ago with somebody who had found Chris and Cindy's story online along with other stories that they've heard on FamilyLife Today—and how God had used that in his life. Dennis: This is a person who been through dark days in his marriage. He became a super sleuth on FamilyLife Today. He went in search of every story of redemption and reconciliation that he could find and he found yours. He said, “I was hopeless but I listened and I listened and I listened.” For three and a half years he battled for his marriage. Chris: Wow! 20:00 Dennis: I asked him—I said, “If I went to your wife right now and asked her what your marriage was like on a ten point scale what would she say?” He said, “A ten!” What about you? A ten! And he's not saying it's perfect, but he's just saying where sin abounds, grace and forgiveness much more. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nobody listening to us here is beyond the reach of God's arm to welcome you in to the family and forgive your sin. There's nothing you have done that you can earn God's favor—nor nothing you can do to cause Him to flee from you. You just need to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord, Master, and Savior and then get on with the process— Chris: Amen. Dennis: —of becoming God's man—God's woman, and if you're married—God's couple. Then leave a godly legacy to future generations which you guys have done. 21:00 And I just have to tell you again. I'm really proud of you for not quitting—for still standing—and for using your wounds to proclaim who Christ is. Way to go! Cindy: Thank you! Chris: God is good! Bob: I can imagine there are folks listening who have been thinking—as they've heard you share your story—about a couple they know facing a similar situation—where there's been infidelity, betrayal, where trust has been broken. I‘d encourage them not only to send their friends a link to the conversations we've had here this week, but also send them a copy of the book, Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New—where you share with folks what you've done and how God's worked in your marriage to bring it to where it is today. We've got copies of the book, Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online to order your copy. Our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. 22:00 You can also order by phone. Our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. So again. the website— FamilyLifeToday.com. The phone number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Ask about the book, Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New by Cindy Beall when you get in touch with us. And, if you're online be sure to watch the video clip that features Chris and Cindy sharing their story. Maybe you'd want to forward that to your friends as well. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. As summer is coming to an end, the month of August is almost over and that means we're in the home stretch for the matching gift opportunity that we've been telling you about all month long. We had a friend of the ministry come to us back at the beginning of the month. He offered to match every donation we receive during the month of August on a dollar for dollar basis. He put a cap on that at $800,000. We're in the home stretch to try to make sure that we're able to take full advantage of those matching gift funds. 23:00 If we are, it will allow us to extend the reach of all that we're doing here at FamilyLife in the months ahead. Help us reach more young married couples, more moms and dads, more people worldwide with practical, biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family. In fact, we did some calculating not long ago and just with this radio program—if you're able to donate $8.24—we can get the program in the ears of 1000 people. Of course, when you make that donation we'll get another $8.24 from the matching gift fund—another 1000 people. So it's just a great opportunity, but it's got an expiration date—and that is tomorrow. We're asking you today to donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Or you can mail your donation and—as long as it's postmarked today or tomorrow—it will still qualify for matching funds. 24:00 Our mailing address is: FamilyLife Today, P.O. Box 7111 Little Rock, Arkansas. Our zip code is 72223. And again, please pray that we will receive enough donations to be able to take full advantage of this matching gift. I hope you can join us back tomorrow. We're going to talk about the power of decisions that we make—and how some decisions can be life altering. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. Hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today; his name is Keith Lynch, also our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. A Cru® ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 2) - Chris and Cindy Beall

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 3, 2020 25:18

Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 1) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 2) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 3) - Chris and Cindy BeallFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Gradually Rebuilding Trust Guests: Chris & Cindy Beall From the series: Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Day 2 of 3) Bob: When Chris Beall was unfaithful to his wife Cindy, she faced a decision. Was she going to forgive him, or not? Here's how she thought that through. Cindy: I really do believe—with all my heart—he never wanted to hurt me. He still did—but he did not want that—so forgiving him, was really rather easy. Trusting him? That was something had to be earned for months—and years—to come. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 29th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What does the process of rebuilding trust in a broken marriage relationship look like? Chris and Cindy Beall join us today to talk about their experience. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. One of the things that we've talked with couples about over the years is the whole issue of how trust gets rebuilt in a relationship when that trust has been violated. 1:00 Usually the violator is hoping that that trust can get rebuilt—like really quickly. The violated person is going, “No, no, no, no, no—this is a much slower process than you imagine—or than it feels like it ought to be to you—because you're not the one who got kicked in the gut; right? Dennis: Yes. Usually the one who confesses the sin—especially in a marriage relationship where a betrayal is so personal—feels like they can empty the garbage can and it's like a dump truck comes and takes it away. Bob: And they feel free because they've become unburdened! Dennis: They've finally gotten rid of it and their spouse is left to know—what do I do with this— Bob: In the garbage! Dennis: —with this garbage? We've got a couple with us—first of all the author of the book Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New, Cindy Beall—welcome back, Cindy. Cindy: Thank you. Dennis: And her husband Chris, joins us. Chris: Thank you. So excited to be here. Dennis: They've been married since 1993. They have three boys. 2:00 You shared earlier about how your marriage had to deal with Chris's deceit, betrayal, pornography, an affair, the birth of a child outside of marriage that you knew nothing about—and your world was shattered instantly. Yet, one of the great parts of your story is that you were part of a church—Life Church—where you now work— Chris: Correct. Dennis: —Chris. I actually love this part of the story, Bob, because many of us have heard a lot of couples, where things have gone wrong and they kind of drop off the face of the planet, and you never hear from them again. Well, that's not the case with Chris and Cindy Beall. They received forgiveness from one another—they have experienced healing. That's what I really want to explore here—and begin with you, Cindy, to just unpack. After you initially responded with grace and forgiveness and a commitment to the marriage some three weeks into the discovery that your husband had been unfaithful for a number of years— 3:00 —not only with pornography but also with affairs with multiple women. How did you experience that healing on an ongoing basis—because there are a lot of listeners who are in the midst of their own deep trauma and trial right now—they need to know where to look for help and hope. Cindy: Grief is not enjoyable. Nobody wants to grieve. We experienced grief when we lose something—it could be a job, it could be a relationship, it could be a person—so our marriage—I felt like—died that day. So I began a grief process. There's different stages—you can research and find about all that—but I didn't really experience a ton of anger or denial—I went straight into the ‘pit of despair', is what I call it. For me, I tried for a little bit to kind of push it away when triggers would come. That's what I used the phrase a lot in my book and when I'm talking to women. 4:00 Triggers would come to remind me of something he had done or something he had said that would trigger back to that two and a half year period. I had an option—I could suppress it—push it aside—forget it—not think about it—or I could feel it and I could push through it and I could move through it. Dennis: Let's talk about one of those triggers. One of the ways would be when he came home late. Maybe a bit later than he had told you he would be home. Cindy: Oh, yes! And I'm thinking, “This reminds me of that time period and what am I going to do with it?” An even better trigger—I want to tell you about this—that I wrote about—I was in Walmart and I was grocery shopping. I remember looking up on the shelf for a particular item for this recipe I was making. This was probably three months after confession. I see it and I'm reminded of something that I used to do when we lived in the other town and it reminded me of, “Oh, he often wasn't home when I did this.” “He was doing a ministry appointment.” 5:00 “Oh, he was—,“ and it triggered and I started thinking, “Oh my gosh!” and I began to cry. In the middle of the aisle in the Walmart. Totally crying—not like on the floor crying— but crying—and I cried for probably a good minute. Then all of a sudden, I just kind of stopped, and I wiped my tears, and I kept grocery shopping. A lot of people would not have let that happen—they would have run out of the store—they would have stopped, they wouldn't have thought about it, but that's what I'm talking about. When these triggers come that remind you of the past, if we do not deal with them—if we do not face them—if we do not feelthem—they'll be there again! So that day I faced a trigger and my healing went a step further—I firmly believe that. I did a whole bunch of that—for a very long time. Bob: I want to make sure our listeners understand, it was three weeks after Chris's confession that you made the decision, “I'm going to stick this out.” Did you forgive him three weeks later? 6:00 Was grace extended in that moment? Or was it like, “I'm going to tough this out but we've still got a loooong road to hoe before you're back in my bed”? Cindy: Forgiveness, for me, was rather quick. I have been forgiven of so much. I watched the actions of my broken, repentant, remorseful husband day after day after day, and I know how much he did not want to do that. I really do believe—with all my heart—he never wanted to hurt me. He still did, but he did not want that. So forgiving him was really rather easy. Trusting him? That was something that had to be earned for months—and years—to come. Just because God called me to stay—and I knew after three weeks—it wasn't like, “Okay! We're good!” No, no. I had to deal with all the—the garbage that I was covered in at this point. He was freer and flying high. I mean, he was amazing and he did so many things to earn my trust back—that he still does 15 years later. 7:00 But, man, it still hurt. I still had to deal with the pain. Bob: Years to rebuild trust? Cindy: Yes. Years. Chris: I would say this—people ask her to this day, “Do you trust Chris?” and this is her response, “I trust God in him.” Bob: Yes. Chris: “When he's walking empowered by the Holy Spirit, I trust that.” Honestly, is there anything trustworthy in any of us? Bob: Yes. Chris: Outside of God empowering us? Sometimes I feel like we emphasize this idea of human trust outside of God that I don't know that is actually real. When I—for the last 15 years of healing, that's been really my number one job is to live empowered by the Holy Spirit—humble and grateful that every day that I have with my boys and with my wife is an undeserved gift. One thing about Cindy I will say—and this is probably not realistic so,— 8:00 —if you're listening, don't beat yourself up if you've done this but—in the last 15 years, Cindy has never once used what I did as ammunition to hurt me. I really believe that she—in a supernatural way—internalizes how much she's been forgiven by God. Her choosing not to use to wound— Dennis: —to punish. Chris: —to punish—is a choice of somebody that has been also forgiven much. I think that's a significant thing. Dennis: Cindy, I—this is—this may be off limits so, if you don't want to answer this question, it's fine. Cindy: Okay. Dennis: I'm not a woman—I can't begin to imagine what it might be like to go to bed with my husband and in that moment of intimacy—more than a trigger—flashbacks. Cindy: —an onslaught. Dennis: Yes—a tsunami. How have you handled that? 9:00 Cindy: Obviously, it's part of the healing. It was very difficult—it was almost like, “Let's just get through this.” Chris: There was six weeks where there was no physical intimacy in our marriage. Our mentors, walking us through this, basically said, “Look, this is something that Cindy is going to set—it's going to be her decision.” Six weeks into the healing process there was a moment where Cindy was open to us being together. Cindy: And it was very challenging. My heart was thinking, “What's he thinking about?” “What does she look like?” “Does she have a better body than me?” All of these thoughts are going through and I just began to take thoughts captive—I mean I am literally taking thoughts captive in that moment. Dennis: For those who don't understand what that means, that's praying and actually just offering those thoughts before God. “God, take these thoughts.” Cindy: Yes. Dennis: “Cleanse them.” Cindy: Yes. Dennis: “Wash them clean.” Cindy: “God help me—help me not think about this.” “I know that you have redeemed this—You've redeemed my marriage—You're making things new.” 10:00 “Please God just help me to make it through.” And then as things progressed in the months to come, there was just less and less of the onslaught of that happening. Bob: Did it take months before you being together was something that you could embrace and enjoy as a wife. Cindy: Potentially closer to a year—maybe more—I can't really remember—but yes, it took a long time. Sadly, people see what we have 15 years later and they think, “I want that!” and I'm like, “Are you sure?” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Yes. You're title of you book makes me emotional to think about it! It a tremendous hope-giving title: Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New. So you wouldn't trade in what you have today? Cindy: I wouldn't. I wouldn't go back. I wouldn't go back—and have a faithful husband. I wouldn't go back—and not have my stepson, whom I adore. I wouldn't go back and trade all the pain to have what I have now. 11:00 I wouldn't go back. I wouldn't do it. Bob: I think it's important for a wife—or even a husband—who's been a victim here. It took a year or more before you could fully be engaged in intimacy with your husband but that doesn't mean it was a year or more before you shared intimacy with your husband. You guys were together during that time with you having to process everything in those moments—but you also recognizing, “If our marriage is going to work, this is a part of what makes a marriage work.” Cindy: Yes. We were growing as a couple in that—let's just take the six week time period—we were growing and he was finally investing in our marriage—after two and a half years of not doing it. That's what happens with these people who start cheating—they're investing somewhere else. When you start investing where you're supposed to—and our intimacy was growing—Yes! We wanted to. 12:00 Dennis: So, Chris—as you were talking about the three weeks—the six weeks—the year—you're not a robot either. Chris: Right. Dennis: What were you learning? Chris: I think the—trying to understand—”How did I get here?” Because there was never a day that I said, “You know, I think I'm going to become a sex addict and I think I'm going to be addicted to pornography for the better part of my adult life.” Those thoughts never went through my head—it was just one—pushing one moral boundary after the other—just real subtle things. Going through the healing process—learning how to be convicted of my sin so not to be ashamed, necessarily—but to be broken—personally—for what I've done and how that affected those that I love—including God—on one side—then truly and fully walking in the grace of Christ—that I am enough—just as I am. That—that was probably one of the most challenging and life-changing things. 13:00 I was working in retail at the time—there was an 18-month period where—almost two years—where I wasn't in ministry and really, ministry was not even on the radar—it's like, “We're done.” Dennis: Your church actually— Chris: Yes. Dennis: —took you off of the stage from leading worship— Chris: Correct. Dennis: —and put you to work at Home Depot and took away all your screens. Cindy: Yes. Chris: The leadership team—they came and took the computer. They said, “You're going to be under our covering”—which means you just have to do whatever we tell you to do. If you want to go on vacation—ask us first. If you want to get a job—which you're going to need a job—you can't travel, you can't have a computer and you can't have the ability to be alone with women. Dennis: You stayed in the church. Cindy: Yes. Chris: Absolutely! Yes. Cindy: We sat on the front row. Chris: —where people knew! Where people knew. Dennis: That took a lot of courage, too. Chris: Well, but here's the thing—so we went the weekend after the announcement and then Craig Groshell, my pastor, made the comment that, “Chris and Cindy's with us today.” It was in that moment that the church stood up [Emotion in voice]— 14:00 —and gave us a round of applause—and there was a line to hug our necks! This is a week after the confession! In that moment—that's really when I had just supernatural hope. It was this community of faith was going to be the hospital where we heal. God is planting the seeds for redemption. That weekend—that day in church—it changed us. Bob: Cindy, could your marriage have made it to where it is today if there had not been a community doing what this community of faith did? If it was just the two of you saying, “Okay, we'll try to rebuild. We'll see a counselor. We'll do our best.” You think your marriage would have survived that? Cindy: I can't see how it would have. 15:00 There's just something special about telling people—like-minded believers—that are going to speak the truth and encourage you and build you up and hold your arms up when you can't hold them up anymore. We had that, not only from the church staff but from our people in the congregation. Dennis: Cindy, as Chris was telling that story, I reached and gave you a Kleenex. I want to know what it was like to have people line up and come by and look you in the eyes and hug you. What was that like? Cindy: It was—peacefully difficult. There was some embarrassment—a little bit—kind of like…everybody knows your business now. [Emotion in voice] You're so vulnerable and so raw—but, man! To see them actually do what the church is supposed to do? How we're supposed to help other believers heal. That was a very profound thing—and it made me think, “I can stay here with these people. I can stay here.” Bob: These were not your lifelong friends. Cindy: I'd been there six weeks! 16:00 I didn't even really have a lot of friends! Bob: Right. Dennis: I don't know what it feels like at this level—I'm a broken person too, but—it has to be a little bit like a leper. Chris: Yes. Dennis: You had to feel like a leper at that moment and have people standing in line to hug you? Cindy: Yes. Chris: Yes. Dennis: What the flesh wants to do is run! Cindy: Right. Dennis: In the other direction—the exit. Chris: I think—Craig stood on stage the week before and said that the American church, unfortunately—more often than not—is one of the only institutions on the planet that shoot their wounded. That will not happen—we will be a hospital. Secondly, he said that gossip kills churches and if we all know the truth in love, then we're truly free to just love them and be a voice of healing. I had one conversation—probably 18 months later—that I think really painted the picture of what—from the perspective of the church—the body of Christ—there was a 75 year old woman that came up to me. 17:00 I don't even remember meeting her—I didn't know who she was—but she walked up to me in church and she grabbed my collar and she said, “Son, are you still free?” I looked at her and I said, “Yes, ma'am.” And she smiled and she said, “We did it!” She didn't say, “You did it!” She didn't say, “Good for your marriage,” she said, “We did it!” I really believe that there's a responsibility that's placed on a community that's of faith—to be environments of healing. She was so proud to be a part of a church that—in her mind—we did it right. Dennis: Your story reminds me of another one that Bob and I were told live on stage at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit where—I believe it was a foster care young lady who was cared for by a woman in the church—was never adopted by her, as I recall. She fell in love as a young lady in her 20's and when it came time [Emotion in voice] to give her away in the wedding to the man— 18:00 —the entire church stood up and said, “Who gives this woman to be married to this man?” You know, that's really what the church was expressing there when they said, “We did it! We really did it.” Cindy, I want you to comment on something. Earlier you said you became convicted that whatever you did, you need to give God the glory. What did that look like? Now, looking back on this, what does it mean to give God the glory—practically speaking? Cindy: It's probably different than what you might expect. We see people in the world where say something nice—“Dennis, great book. Oh, praise God, He's so good.” We give God the glory in that capacity—or we think we do—and we might. For me, giving God the glory is a heart condition. 19:00 I began—when people would come up—and they still do—and they say, “Oh! You're so amazing!” They'll say things like, “You saved my marriage!” and I'm thinking, “No I didn't. I'm a human—God saved it!” When I get all these compliments—whether it's speaking at an event and people are like, “Oh, you—that was so good!” I just—in the quiet of my heart—I just say, “God, if they only knew! I'm so wretched!” I'm thinking this to myself and I just—“Thank you God, that you're using me—this vessel.” I just look at them and I say, “Thanks.” “Thank you.” Then I always turn it and I'll say, “What did God speak to you?” If I'm speaking…and they said something—“What did He say to you?” I'm trying to shift it to where I want to know what He spoke. At the same time, we're called to encourage as long as it is today—so that none of us will be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. So if I encourage you and you slam it back against me—you say, “Oh no, it wasn't me, it was just God.” 20:00 I'm trying to encourage you and if you don't allow me, I'm not using that gift—that command that I have. That was—for me—what I began to do—was…giving God glory. For me, giving Him glory was so internal—was so internal. Bob: I think it's evident in what you've done in two books now because you've written two books telling this story and it all keeps pointing back to how it's God at work in this. Nobody can read these books and go, “You're just so smart! You're just so clever! You came up with all kinds of solu—“ “Those tactics you had—where did you come up—“ This is just all about all about the healing power of God in the life of a couple. Dennis: For those of you who want to hear Chris's answer to a question I'm about to ask him, you're going to have to go to our website. Okay? Bob: Okay. Are we going to hear the question? Dennis: Oh, we're going to hear the question— Bob: —and then the answer will be online. [Laughter] Dennis: —and the answer will be online. 21:00 Chris, this wasn't your statement—whatever you did you wanted to give God the glory—that was your wife's statement. I'm just curious as to how you feel in the years that have past that has worked its way out in you. Bob: That's a good question. Again, we're not going to listen to the answer now—the answer will be online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Head over there to hear Chris's thoughts on how God has been glorified in the midst of the brokenness that has been a part of your marriage relationship. We also have copies of the book that Cindy has written telling their story. It's called Rebuilding A Marriage Better Than New. While you're on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, you can order a copy of the book or you can call to order if you'd like. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The number to call to order is 1-800-358-6329. 20:00 That's 1-800-FL-TODAY. 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word “TODAY”. There's also a video on the website for those who would like to watch a short video where you guys share your story. There may be people that folks would want to pass that video along to. Again, you'll find it online at FamilyLifeToday.com. As we're sharing your story this week I'm just reminded of our goal here at FamilyLife. We want to daily provide practical help and hope from the Bible so that husbands and wives, moms and dads know how to build a strong, healthy, godly marriage and family. Our goal is to effectively develop godly marriages and families—because we believe godly marriages and families change the world one home at a time. Our desire—in the months ahead—is to expand the outreach. We've seen God do some great things this past year with more people attending our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. 23:00 More people coming to our website—FamilyLifeToday.com—more ways that this daily program is reaching people—on their smartphones, on their tablets, through the radio. Those of you who support this ministry—you're helping us expand the reach of FamilyLife Today. At the beginning of this month we had a friend of the ministry who stepped forward and said, “I'd like to see it grow even more.” He offered to match every donation that we receive during the month of August—dollar for dollar—up to a total of $800,000. To take advantage of that matching gift, we need to hear from folks before this month ends—and this month ends in a couple of days. Today is a good day to go online and make a donation—and when you do, your donation will be doubled. You can donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. Or mail your donation to us at FamilyLife Today at P.O. Box 7111 Little Rock, AR. The zip code is 72223. 24:00 As long as your letter is postmarked before the end of the month, it will qualify for that matching gift opportunity for us. Again, please pray that we'll be able to take full advantage of this matching gift. Please join us back tomorrow when we're going to hear more from Chris and Cindy Beall as they tell us about the process God has taken them through in rebuilding their broken marriage, better than new. That comes up tomorrow—hope you can be with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. A Cru® ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 1) - Chris and Cindy Beall

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 3, 2020 26:24

Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 1) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 2) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 3) - Chris and Cindy BeallFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Desperate for Freedom Guest: Chris & Cindy Beall From the series: Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Day 1 of 3) Bob: Chris Beall had a secret and it came to a point where he realized as long as he kept his secret a secret—it was affecting his marriage and his spiritual life. Chris: All the things that God wanted to do in my life wouldn't happen until I had the courage to bring what was in the dark into the light. There's something about bringing it into the light—confessing it to another person and praying for each other—that brings an exposure and a healing. The moment that I took that step was the beginning of radical healing in my own heart. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 28th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll learn about Chris Beall's secret today—and how it almost destroyed his marriage. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. We have a couple with us today who—some of our listeners will recognize them because their story. They've shared it on FamilyLife Today before. It's been shared as a part of The Stepping Up® Video Series. It's a great story of beauty coming from ashes. Dennis: It is indeed. We have the author of the book Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New - Cindy Beall. Cindy, welcome back to the broadcast. Cindy: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Dennis: And her husband, Chris—welcome back to you as well. Chris: We are excited. We love you guys. Dennis: The Beall's have been married since 1993. They have three teenage sons and their story is one of the classics on FamilyLife Today in terms of God showing up and truly not only redeeming but reconciling their marriage. Bob: If our listeners would like to hear the complete story of what brought your marriage to the brink, 2:00 they can go to our website—FamilyLifeToday.com—and listen to the interviews we've done with you. But Chris, it's rooted in you growing up with the exposure to pornography that lead you to some dark places. Chris: Right. Eight years old I saw the first pornographic image—and for the next twenty years I was a prisoner—in one form or another—to the struggle. In 2002 we were invited to be a part of Life Church in Oklahoma City and we came. At that moment I really feel like there was kind of a do-over because I had an enormous amount of baggage and an enormous amount of lifestyle moral failures. Honestly, multiple affairs prior to us moving to Oklahoma City. Dennis: That weren't really known to anyone. Chris: Correct. It was total double life. Cindy knew something wasn't right in our marriage, didn't know exactly what that meant or what it looked like. 3:00 I would say that I was a master deceiver—of myself and other people—to keep those worlds separate—but it was when we came to Life Church that it really seemed like, “Okay, God. We thought we were coming to be the next worship leader at this church”—and the reality was God brought us there to heal us. That starts with the exposure of what the sin was. Bob: Cindy, for you that exposure came out of the blue one morning when your husband came home from work unexpectedly and said, “We need to talk.” You had no idea was coming. Cindy: I had no idea. As he began to unfold the things he just shared with you—the pornography addiction, the infidelity—as he began to say all those things, things just started happening in my mind. Of course, instant desperation, despair, everything terrible you can imagine that you could think, I thought it—but at the same time was—”Oh, it's making sense now.” 4:00 Because it wasn't our entire nine years of marriage leading up to this point—it was about a two and one half year period of really intense difficulty—so it was a total shock. I would never have imagined that he would have gone this far—this deep—into such a wretched place. Dennis: You knew at that point that something was missing in your marriage. You just couldn't say, “This is it”—but all of a sudden it was disclosed. Cindy: Absolutely. Chris: Correct. Cindy: For me, I remembered during that two and a half year period I felt very alone where we were in our church. My husband was the worship pastor, the youth pastor and so I really—people looked to me—so who am I going to talk to? I just—it was really a lonely place for me so I became very well acquainted with my heavenly Father. He became everything to me. I remember just praying, “God, something's wrong. Something's wrong.” I just remember Him saying, “Trust me. Trust me.” 5:00 So, I believed that had we not come to Oklahoma, been a part of Life Church—under Craig and Emily Groshell—that we might not have survived this. Chris: I remember seeing a book that was always next to Cindy's chair during her quiet times in the mornings during those two and a half years that I was living this double life. It was the Power of a Praying Wife. Dennis: Yes. Bob: Yes. Chris: I will tell you, looking back, my wife was praying God's word over my life in the period that I was the most prodigal that I had ever been. I know we're going to get to this, but I truly believe where we are today—there are so many things how the church responded—partly how I responded—but I believe it all started with the fact that I had a wife that was praying—in the darkest place of my rebellion—my wife was praying and believing God's word and speaking promises over my life that ultimately I became those prayers. Dennis: FamilyLife has known as an organization for bringing practical, Biblical, help and hope to couples. 6:00 I just have to say what you two modeled—as you faced this deep, dark valley of despair—how you modeled repentance, Chris, and how you modeled grace and forgiveness and steadfast commitment to move forward in your marriage and how the church offered healing and how they helped restore—first of all, Chris, you to a right standing before God—but then secondly, restore your marriage and your family. I would just encourage listeners—because we're not going to continue to unpack all the details of what they did in the previous broadcast, go listen to that broadcast that they did. What I want to unpack is how God met you in that deep wound and brought deep healing. Bob: Cindy—that started that morning when your husband comes home. He is transparent about everything that has gone on. 7:00 You find out about multiple affairs. You find out that he has fathered a son—who is living in another state. This is all new to you. You had two big questions right in front of you that day. The first one is,” How do we handle this in the short term?”—because the news is going to come out that the worship pastor at the big church in town that he's not the worship pastor anymore and we have to figure out what we have to do with that—but then,” Do I even stay married to this man?” There's a Biblical case to be made for you to say, “We're done here. I'm moving on.” Cindy: Yes, and that honestly, as much as I loved him, I literally thought, “I don't think my heart can take this. I think it would be best to just cut my losses—move back to Texas. I just have one child; I can manage being a single mom.” I started immediately— I'm a planner—I'm proud of being a planner, but sometimes it gets me going on the wrong track and I start planning and not including God in the scenario—but I—I'm telling you—I began thinking, “What am I going to do?” 8:00 Thinking—just because I didn't leave our marriage—at the time we were still living in the same house—mainly because we couldn't afford to do anything different. I just felt like the Father was like, “Hello? I'm still here. Are you going to ask Me about this?” Sure enough, I was like, “Okay God. What do you think I should do?” I just kept asking that question. I just remember Him saying, “Remember when you said would do anything to bring Me glory?” I was like, “Well, yes—but I was meaning easier things, like something simpler.” God just began to stir in me—and through a long series of events that I wrote about in my first book—I talk about how God met me and He spoke the word to me about staying the course and trusting in Him and trusting Him for the vision that He would unfold. So three weeks later I said, “Okay God, I trust you.”—because I certainly didn't trust him— 9:00 —I had to trust my heavenly Father. He is the only one 100% trustworthy—so that was the beginning of that. Bob: So it was a three week period, basically—from the time you heard this until said, “Okay, I'm going to stick with this.” Cindy: Correct. Bob: Was, “I'm going to stick with it,”—was that, “I'm in this until the end,” or was this, “I'll stick with this for six more months and see what happens?” Cindy: It was for the end—it was until the end. Habakkuk 2:3 says, “For the vision is yet for the appointed time. Though it linger, wait for it. It will certainly come. It will not delay.” That was the Scripture that I had been basically begging God for. I just didn't know it was going to be through a minor prophet of a name that most people can't pronounce—and certainly we don't read about him. I mean, it's Habakkuk!—but God spoke to me through that. That's what I have stood on for 15 years. Dennis: I just want you to unpack—what gave you the courage during that three week process to take that step of faith to move toward healing? 10:00 You've mentioned you had a relationship with God and you had a heart that was open—teachable—willing to do what God asked you to do. What else did He bring your way to make that a reasonable step of faith? Cindy: Well, He brought people. There was a couple that really walked with us—they had already experienced infidelity in their marriage like twenty years prior, so they were with us—they were walking through it with us—encouraging us. One of the pastors on the team—as I was that three week period I kept—as I said I am a planner, I wanted to kind of know what the rest of my life would look like—which is a ludicrous thing—but I was thinking, “I need to know. I need to know,” and he just looked at me and he said, “Cindy, you don't have to decide the rest of your life today.” So that thought kind of carried me each day until I knew that I had heard from God to stay in my marriage because there were people with opinions everywhere. Anybody can give you an opinion. Well, you need to leave. Once a cheater, always a cheater. He's going to do this again—and there's so many things. Dennis: You heard that from Christians? 11:00 Cindy: Oh, yes. I mean—of course—and had I not gone through something like this, I can't say I wouldn't have thought the same thing. We shoot our wounded as Christians, sadly, but trying not to decide the rest of my life for that season really did help me and take those steps. Dennis: I want to point out three things here real quickly. First of all, you had counsel to hang in there—people who had been wounded themselves. And secondly they shared their own wounds with you which had been adultery—a lack of faithfulness. I am thinking of a couple, Bob, that you and I both know who have been very open about an error the husband made in their relationship, and their marriage has now been used to literally touch hundreds of other couples, both here in America, and internationally as they're willing to open their hearts and admit something that is really kind of ugly. We kind of are repulsed by it. 12:00 I just want to say to those listeners who have this as a part of your past—I'm not encouraging you to boast about it—but I am encouraging you to boast about God's redemption, His reconciliation, and how He brings hope where there is despair—because there are listeners who are listening to us right now who are despairing and who need hope. That's the third thing that you mentioned, Cindy—that I just want to underline. You were willing to admit you didn't know what your future held, but you were willing to step out in faith. I think it was Martin Luther King, I believe, who made this statement. “Faith is taking the first step on the staircase without being able to see all the other steps.” I like that because you took that first step on a staircase—you didn't know where it was going to lead you. Cindy: Absolutely. I kind of picture God's hands under my feet— 13:00 —and one foot is on one hand and it's there when I step. Then the next one—it's not ready until I lift—the ever progressing thing that I am on with God. Bob: The river doesn't part until you step into the water. Cindy: That's right. Bob: And those who are standing on the shore waiting for the Jordan River to part—no, you have to step in the water before God does that work. What's going on with you in this three week period while she's trying to decide “Do I stay or do I go?” Chris: So I obviously want the marriage to survive—I mean desperately—but here's the thing. Dennis: Now wait a second—that's not necessarily obvious. Bob: There are some guys who are ready for it to be over. Chris: Okay. Well, the context of my struggle was not fueled by a lack of intimacy at home. I had a deep emptiness in my heart. Here's the thing—I have struggled since I was a kid feeling like I was a failure—do I measure up? 14:00 I love my wife. I know my actions don't show that, but she was my best friend. I would choose to spend time with her. The thing is, I allowed this sense of inadequacy to need to be medicated. What happened was in a weird way these images on a screen momentarily made me feel a little bit more like a man—and then I felt less of a man. So it creates this spiral and this cycle of darkness. The relationship with other women was the fact that I don't like who I am—but this other person is drawn to me or likes me. That's ultimately—I'm trying to medicate my own internal emptiness. It was just a deep dark place that I was trying to heal it though everyone other that the source of that healing—which is God. Bob: Right. Chris: So as Cindy is going through this process of, “Do I want to stay? Is this marriage going to work?” I deeply wanted that to work. 15:00 But what I wanted even more—I wanted to be free—because I've been a prisoner most of my life. I‘ve been a prisoner of sin, I've been a prisoner of habitual behaviors that for whichever reason, I just can't seem to be able to break out of. As much as I want my marriage to work, I had nothing to offer Cindy and I have nothing to offer for my boys unless I am walking in freedom. I was desperate. This is my shot and I want to be free. There's really two things that were significant in those early days for me. One is that I allowed myself to let my heart break for what I had done to the heart of God and what I had done to the heart of the people I loved the most. Paul talked about the difference between worldly sorrow and Godly sorrow. He writes this letter to the Corinthians. He says, “I'm not sorry that what I said brought you sorrow, for Godly sorrow leaves no regret and brings about repentance”. 16:00 Repentance is a military term that really—it's literally an about face—I'm going to turn 180 degrees from the direction that I am going—and I am going to turn completely to God. But worldly sorrow is really more of a, “I'm inconvenienced by the consequence of my sin,” and that leads—Paul says—to death. So I just let my heart break. I was a puddle of emotion for quite some time—I think that process was extremely necessary for me to go through. It wasn't that I was putting condemnation and shame on myself, but I was allowing my heart to break for what broke the heart of God. Bob: You were at a crossroads—and I've met guys at this crossroads. You had been successfully managing your sin for two and a half years. Chris: Correct. Bob: You'd been playing this so they're the only one who knows and you're maneuvering your way through it. 17:00 Now you're at a point where, “Do I keep trying to manage this? Or do I mortify it?”—which means to put it to death. I heard one guy describe it this way. It's like a rabid dog that you keep in a cage over in the corner of the house and you go, “As long as he's in the cage, he can't hurt me. I'll get it out every once in a while and play with it and then put it back in the cage.” Well, that dog gets bigger and sicker and one of these days is going to kill you. Chris: Right. Bob: So the thing you have to do with the dog is you have to kill the dog. Chris: Right. Bob: You were at the crossroads where, “I cannot manage this anymore. I have to put this to death.” I'm imagining, Chris, even in that moment, you don't really know your heart—“Do I really want to put this to death?” Or, “I'm where I am and I feel bad, this will last for a while then I'll be right back to it.” Chris Monday morning I'm sitting in a staff meeting with Chris Groshell—who is my boss—and I can't say enough about how God used this man in our marriage. He made a comment in that staff meeting and— 18:00 —he said to our team that, “It is our private integrity that gives us the ability to minister publically, so we have to keep it clean. We have to. The stakes are so high.” He said, “If you are walking in sin—it's going to find you out. Confess it, and you'll find grace.” That was on a Monday. I had been at that church for six weeks with this looming cloud of, “I'm going to get found out.” That was on a Monday. It was on a Tuesday that I'm like, “I can't do this anymore.” I just really believed that all the things that God wanted to do in my life wouldn't happen until I had the courage to bring what was in the dark into the light. James, “Confess your sins one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.” This whole time that I was in sin, I would drive home from having sinned and I'm confessing to God. 19:00 “God, heal me. Please don't let me ever do this again.” There's not a Scripture in the Bible that says confess to the Lord for healing. We confess to God for forgiveness but there's something about bringing it into the light and confessing it to another person and praying for each other that brings an exposure and a healing. The moment that I took that step was the beginning of radical healing in my own heart. Cindy: I kind of equate it to—he got to the point that Tuesday morning—that he wanted freedom so desperately that he was willing to risk everything to get it—including our marriage. I know that you've got listeners right now listening to this broadcast and they are in a world of hurt and sick in bondage. They don't hate their sin enough. When we come to the place where we hate it enough, we'll do anything to find freedom. Hopefully somebody listening can take that step today. 20:00 Dennis: Chris mentioned freedom. I immediately thought of Galatians chapter 5 verse 1. It says, “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” There are undoubtedly listeners right now who are listening and they have never really met Jesus Christ and understood His love, His forgiveness, His mercy, His grace, His redemption—that He offers to people to step out of the prison that they are in and be set free. I would just challenge you if you are in this situation now, it may be time for you to settle things with God. Chris was talking about settling things with the person you have offended. It may be important for you to first of all settle the issues with the God you've offended. 21:00 Then secondly, after that relationship has been established—because that is what the Christian life is—it's beginning a journey of following Christ—not perfectly—but you're following the perfect Savior who now lives in you. Then go to your spouse—and there's where as a couple you have to embrace the same Jesus Christ who set you free—you have to express forgiveness to one another. Ephesians chapter 4 talks about forgiving one another just as God in Christ has forgiven you. That's your command. Forgiveness means you give up the right to punish the other person. I wish you could see Cindy's nodding head right now—she's smiling and nodding. She had to repeatedly give up the right to punish Chris. Bob: The verse I'm thinking of that the two of you have modeled in this entire story is Ephesians 5:11 that says, “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.” 22:00 That's what you guys choose to do. This week we'll get a chance to follow you on that journey and hear how God was at work in both of your lives as you moved forward. In fact, Chris and Cindy have shared the story in a book that Cindy has written that's called Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New. We've got copies of the book in our FamilyLifeToday Resource Center. Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com if you'd like to get a copy or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to receive a copy. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com, you can order online. Or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329. 1-800-F as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word TODAY. Again I'll mention—on our website we've got a short video clip where you guys share your story—listeners may want to view that. They may know somebody they'd like to pass that clip on to. Again you'll find it at FamilyLifeToday.com. 23:00 Well, this is the home stretch week for us here at FamilyLife—it's the last week of August. We just have a few days left to hear from listeners if we're going to be able to take full advantage of the matching gift opportunity that was extended to us back at the beginning of the month. We had a friend of the ministry who came along and agreed he would match every donation we received this month on a dollar for dollar basis up to a total of $800,000. Now those matching funds will enable us to be able to reach more people more often with this radio program, through our website, through our events and our resources. You can help extend the reach of this ministry by making a donation and having your donation be effectively doubled because of the matching gift opportunity—but you need to do it before the end of the month—and the end of the month is this week. So today is a good day to go to FamilyLifeToday.com and make an online donation or call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. 24:00 Or you can mail your donation to us at FamilyLife Today at P.O. Box 7111, Little Rock, AR. Our zip code is 72223. Please do pray that we would get the necessary funds this week and be able to take full advantage of that match. We appreciate you. We hope you can join us back tomorrow. We are going to continue to follow Chris and Cindy Beall as they take us through the process they've been through in rebuilding a broken marriage. Hope you can join us back tomorrow for that. Bob: I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Gone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 2) - Hank Parker

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 3, 2020 26:54

Gone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 1) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 2) - Hank ParkerGone Fishing With Hank Parker (Part 3) - Hank Parker FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. A Legacy of Faith Guest: Hank Parker From the series: Gone Fishing with Hank Parker (Day 2 of 3) Bob: Hank Parker is an award-winning, world champion fisherman. In the process of chasing that dream, Hank looks back and realizes he neglected something even more important. Hank: I was not the husband that God called me to be and the result was total devastation. The Bible says you love your wife as Christ loved the church and died for it. It is not contingent—God tells the wife what to do, and God tells the husband what to do. So my behavior is not contingent on how well she does her job, and God showed me that clearly. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, June 8th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. It is easy in the pursuit of our dreams to neglect what's really important in our lives. Hank Parker talks about that with us today. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I have been inspired this week. I think I can do it—I think I can become a world class bass fisherman. [Laughter] I mean— Dennis: Bob— Bob: Yes? Dennis: Bob, I've seen you fish. Bob: Well— Dennis: Bob, tell the audience what kind of fishing pole I gave you. Bob: We have been fishing together up on the—what was it? Dennis: The White River. Bob: It's in Arkansas. They're—what are the fish called? They're trout? Dennis: That's what they are called. They have fins. Bob: Right Dennis: They live in water. Bob: Right. Dennis: That is correct. Bob: And there was a nice man in the boat who took those fish off that hook for me—I appreciated him a lot! Dennis: But tell them about the pole I gave you. It was a kiddie pole— Bob: It was a Zebco®. Dennis: —a little pink kiddie pole, that was about two feet long and— Bob: We're going to post on our website, at FamilyLifeToday.com, a picture of the fish I caught with that big fishing pole— Dennis: I was—that was where I was going. Bob: —because I caught a pretty good-sized fish. Dennis: I wanted to tell— 2:00 Bob: It was the big fish of the day. Dennis: It was the big fish of the trip! I got to introduce Hank Parker. Welcome back to Bob Lepine's Outdoor Program. [Laughter] Hank: The big-fish man caught it on a kid's rod and reel, and it was two feet long!I've never done that—that's pretty special. [Laughter] Dennis: Hank is a world champion bass fisherman. He has a TV program called Hank Parker's Outdoors—also has a hunting program with your sons. Share with our listeners about that broadcast. Hank: Okay. My fishing show is Hank Parker's Outdoor Magazine, been running for 34 years. Then, for 10 years now, I've been doing a show with my two older sons called Hank Parker's Flesh and Blood. It's a hunting show over on the Outdoor Channel. We've had a lot of fun with that. Bob: So, I can look at myself in the mirror and know that I can't make it in the NBA—[Laughter]—okay? I'm not tall enough / I can't jump that high. I can look at myself in the mirror and know the NFL is out for me. Can anybody be a world class fisherman? 3:00 Hank: Absolutely! And that is what is so cool about our sport. I was talking earlier with some folks about the growth of high school fishing. These kids that are not athletic / these kids that don't necessarily qualify for any type of team sport—the water is level. Whether you're a little girl, a little boy, whether you're tall—it doesn't make any difference. You know, the water's level; and fish are not partial to anybody—they're non-discriminate. Bob: Well, the guy that we went fishing with that day, who was in the boat—who took the fish off the hook for me? [Laughter] I saw what Dennis paid him at the end of the day. He's making a good living doing that. He's doing alright; you know? Dennis: There are a lot of days when you don't go to work though, Bob. Bob: Okay! Dennis: Alright. I want you to talk to our listeners—we've got other stories that I want you to tell—but I just—for a moment, talk to moms and dads about doing something like fishing or hunting with your son / with your daughter; because it really is a great way— 4:00 Bob is kind of kidding about this—but it really is a great way to bond and build relationships with your kids. Hank: I have the opportunity—when I do fishing seminars, people will ask questions from time to time. I take every opportunity that I can to spread the word that fishing will break down a lot of barriers. In my life, it was everything. But almost every kid that you will ever see catch a fish—whether they are 2 years old or 80 years old / old kids— everybody catches a fish smiles / it's fun. But you know, we all are guilty—I'm guilty of driving the kids to school—the bell is going to ring at 8:15, and we've got to hurry and hurry. You kind of force feed a conversation when the mood's wrong. Man, you can take your kid out on a riverbank—or in the boat and sit on the pond—just let him or her just open up. Let the conversation flow. 5:00 The quality of the conversation you can have in the right atmosphere breaks so many barriers that we try to force on our kids. Communicating is not just talking. To be able to really reach your children, you've got to work to create an environment. Fishing will help you do that. I promise you—it will help you get that. Bob: Have you thought about why that is? What is it about fishing that causes people to just to relax and have conversations that they might not otherwise have? Hank: I just think it calms your nerves. It is very soothing / it is no pressure—you don't have to make a hoop / you don't have to be physically gifted to get it done. Man, you just throw a bobber out there. Fishing can be really sophisticated and complicated—a lot of electronic equipment we use and some of the stuff in techniques and methods. But that's really not what fishing is all about. That's just a specialized technique for a very limited number of the people that participate in the sport. 6:00 Fishing is about families / fishing is about good times. Fishing is about sharing—fishing is about being with someone / interacting—you want to be with. And that's really what fishing is all about—to take your kid and be able to put your arm around him or her—just breaks those barriers. They're under no pressure. You know, our kids today—the academic demands are so hard on them. If you don't fit in to play team sports you get made fun of. So they're under pressure—they're constantly being critiqued because they can't do this. I know how that feels. All of a sudden, you put them in an environment where there is none of that—no pressure at all. Here we are, just having a good time. I think it just breaks down those barriers that allow them to open up. Boy, if you can ever get them to open up, then you can really start to communicate. 7:00 Dennis: One of my favorite moments, here, on FamilyLifeToday—Bob will know when it was before I finish saying the name—but it was a tribute given by RV Brown. R V Brown gave his father, who was—lived to be in his nineties, I think—didn't he, Bob? Bob: Yes. Dennis: And R V was one of 18 kids? Bob: Right. Dennis: He gave his dad a tribute. You know what he reflected on as he spoke to his dad in that tribute? Hank: No. Dennis: He said, “You took me fishing,”—Willy Fish? Bob: He called his dad Willy Fish Brown. Hank: How ‘bout that! Bob: Yes! Dennis: Did you go fishing with your dad? Hank: I did! Early on, before my dad got so consumed, we fished. It was so special—it was incredible. If I can, I'll tell a really quick story. I've had all these goals in my life. I was the first angler to ever win the Bassmaster Classic and the B.A.S.S. Angler of the Year—I was the first guy to ever win the Grand Slam. I've had some pretty good achievements. 8:00 A lot of times, people ask me a question about: “What is your greatest moment in the outdoors?” The greatest moment for me in the outdoors—my youngest son, Timmy, who loves the turkey hunt. I'm a big-time turkey hunter; so I've got all these rules: “We do not talk in the turkey woods. You can break a limb and maybe you're an animal; but if you talk, you are a dead give-away.” We were sitting on the riverbank on the Broad River in South Carolina. This big gobbler was gobbling. Every time a bird—if you are not familiar with turkey hunting—in the morning, when they wake up, in the spring of the year, they gobble. He's up in the tree and he's gobbling. Every breath / every little tweety bird that makes a sound—he is trying to out-gobble. Timmy pulls up on my shirt—he just tugs my shirt. God had painted one of those incredible sunrises, and there was steam coming off the water. He was so overwhelmed with that—he had to tell me. He pulled on my shirt. I looked down; and he said, “Daddy, I love you.” 9:00 I was about to cry and the turkey was. It was just so special. But his little heart was so full of gratitude and just overwhelmed with being in that environment. That was my greatest moment in the outdoors Dennis: When you do go fishing or hunting with your kids—well, it requires that you be all there. There is no competition with a screen or with the phone. It's just a relationship between a father and a son, or father and a daughter, or for that matter, a mother and her son. Bob: Now wait, are you telling me you have to leave your phone in the car?—or you can't take it into the woods? Dennis: I promise you, you wouldn't go turkey hunting with Hank Parker if you brought your cell phone on you. Bob: I was thinking about the similarities between the two of you, because you're both turkey hunters. I think one of the differences is you've actually shot a turkey; haven't you, Hank? [Laughter] Hank: Self defense. Bob: Because, Dennis goes out every year; and every year, the turkeys have been safe. [Laughter] Have you ever shot a turkey? Dennis: I have, Bob. But in recent years, they've not been in danger. [Laughter] No; there's no doubt about it. 10:00 You've had quite a career—winning all these accolades / inducted into the Bass Fishing Hall of Fame and so many things that have come your way. You indicated that there was a bit of a drift in your life—even after you came to faith in Christ—that began to change at some point. Would you kind of bring us up to date on what took place in those years that led you up to that? And then, how did that change occur? Hank: There was a tremendous revival when my dad got saved. Then, I got saved; and I became very legalistic. I went through the motions and I did what I felt was expected of me. I worked bus routes to go seek kids to bring them to Sunday school, out of duty, not out of my heart. I was pretty tough on my family. I was so legalistic, at some points in time, in my life—I was just bogged down in it. 11:00 I was married to a wonderful lady, and we had five children. I had gone to California on a little fishing trip; and I met her in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where we were buying a house. She tells me she wanted a divorce. It rocked my world beyond—I didn't see it coming—should have. I was a part-time husband, at best. I, of course, blamed it all on her. It was completely her fault, in my mind; until one day, when I was shaving, God said: “Look in the mirror, and you'll see whose fault it is.” Dennis: Had you let career so dominate your life? I mean, because—to be really good at something, whether it's basketball, golf, or fishing—you've got to be all there / to be focused. Hank: I didn't even know—to be totally honest, I did not know how consumed I was with competitive bass fishing—I had no idea. I promised my kids—my kids were growing up—and their mom was an awesome mom. She was just great to those kids, and she worked hard at it. 12:00 But those kids had gotten to be 12 years old / 10 years old. They wanted to go race golf carts and go-carts, and they wanted to go climb trees, and deer hunt and squirrel hunt—do things that moms are not normally willing to do. Some moms are good at that, but their mom—that didn't interest her—so they needed their dad. So I promised them—I said, “If I ever win the World Championship again, I'll retire”; and I did. In 1989, I won the World Championship the second time; and I retired. I was 36 years old. But it wasn't until I retired that I realized how consumed I was. My every waking thought was about the next lake / my next strategies—what I am going to do. All of a sudden, the thing that hit me the hardest when I retired is: “Man, my mind's cleared; because I'm not thinking about the next tournament.” It wasn't until then that I realized how consumed I was; but as far as my marriage was concerned, it was pretty much too late. 13:00 I came home to try to fix things—in which I didn't know there was a problem in the marriage—I knew there was a problem in my parenting / that I wasn't there enough. My kids would stand at the door every time I'd leave and cry. You know: “I've got to quit doing this.” So, when I retired, I did realize how consumed I was with the sport. Dennis: Would people in your church, where you attended, would they have said: “Yes; Hank and his wife are doing fine. He's very successful.” Hank: Absolutely! No one in the entire world would have thought—my children didn't see anything—no one knew anything. My wife had just grown so frustrated with my being gone constantly and had no confidence that I would ever change. She had just resolved in her heart that I would never be there for her—so she was moving on. She had got to that point and wasn't any changing her mind. For four years, we tried—for four years, we tried. 14:00 Dennis: —tried to push back against divorce. Hank: Tried to fight it. But I look back—you know, I would blame her in my heart, but God showed me clearly it wasn't her—it was me. Had my priorities—you know, people—I hear it all the time—when the Bible says you love your wife as Christ loved the church and died for it; and then wives submit to your husbands. It's not contingent—God told the wife what to do, and God tells the husband what to do. My behavior is not contingent on how well she does her job. God showed me that clearly. So I can't blame anything on her. I have to take the blame, because I was not the husband that God called me to be; and the result was total devastation. Bob: I want to ask you a really hard question: “If I could take you back ten years before your wife said, ‘I want a divorce,' and I could put a path in front of you, and I could say: ‘This one leads to bass championships and world recognition—the Hall of Fame. 15:00 “'This one—you'll make a living for your family, doing what you enjoy doing. You won't get the endorsements / you won't be in the Hall of Fame, but you'll live it out and things will stay intact.'” Could you pick? Hank: I could pick in a heartbeat. There's no doubt I would have chose to take the job to make a living and keep my family intact—no doubt. Dennis: It was devastating to you. Hank: You know, I don't tell this very often—I don't know that I've ever really told it—but I walked away / I didn't take anything. I didn't take part of the home—I walked away—I didn't have a place to live. I lived with my son in an apartment for a year, because I wasn't capable of making payments. I left everything. I had about two million dollars worth of debt—that's all I left with—I didn't have anything. But I wasn't able—people: “Why didn't you fight for what your fair share was?” I wasn't able to fight—I was devastated / I didn't want to live. 16:00 I had gotten to the point where the papers—when I got those papers, I cannot tell you what that did to me. But they're on my desk—and the first time in my whole life I was afraid of my own self. I wasn't thinking clear. I went to shut the door of my office. I have a trophy shelf there with all my trophies. I looked down at the bottom, and I saw all my kids in a picture. I fell on my face in my office and I said: “God, You've got to give me something I don't have. I'm at the lowest point I've ever been of my life.” Now, through this whole four years of fighting and trying to save my marriage, I was so angry with God. I didn't pray—so I'm the Prodigal Son now—I've been gone / I've been in the hog pen. I fell down on that floor and the Father came. The Holy Spirit put His arm around me and said: “I'm here. I've been waiting on you.” It was a revelation that I had never experienced before or since. 17:00 God loved on me and gave me something inside, and this suicidal idea that I had left me. I don't say I didn't ever have struggles after that; but I never, ever got to that low, low point ever again. I realized how much He loved me and all those legalistic years were now behind me. I served God because I thought this is what I needed to do for a lot of years. But the last 16 years, I have served Him out of pure love. I realize how much God loves me and that it all changed in just a second. Bob: Hank, if there's a guy listening and he's thinking: “If we can just gut this out for five years / if I can just stay focused on the business and get this thing, I can be at the top of the game. And then I'll turn back around; and we can have it all, as a family”—what would you say to him? 18:00 Hank: “It doesn't work!” This is what I did wrong, and I know this. My wife did not know how much I loved her—I never conveyed—I never put my arms around her and said: “Baby, let's work this together. Here's my schedule; is this okay? Can we do this? I love you. I want to make this for you.” I never did those things—“I'm the big tough guy / I'm the world champ—I'm the man. You're going to do it my way.” You can't say: “I'm going go off and fish these next five years and, then, I'm going to come home and fix it,”—I thought that—it didn't work. Dennis: And what did work—was finally emptying yourself. It's the only way a marriage can work—is with a husband and a wife who decide to surrender to Jesus Christ and to what He has for them to do. And there are some duties we have to do that mean we can't outrun our wives and our children at home to accomplish something out in the world. 19:00 Early in our ministry, I had to decide: “Was I going to outrun my wife, Barbara?” I don't know, Hank, why I could see something at that point that you couldn't see in bass fishing; because I could have made the very same decision, because the ministry can be intoxicating—people telling you how you've encouraged them / you've ministered to them. But something spoke to me and said: “If you attempt to go do those things, and leave your wife and your children in the dust, it's not going to be good—the outcome was going to be bad.” I've made a lot of wrong decisions in my marriage / in raising our family. But in that one situation, I saw clearly that: “If you are going to make whatever it is an idol, in place of Jesus Christ—not surrendered to Him—and take care of Job One, which begins at home, you're headed for big time trouble.” 20:00 Hank: You know, I think, with me, I never really thought about anything. I just went at it so hard that I did not stop and think about the partnership of marriage. I didn't ever think I was doing anything wrong. I thought: “Man, I'm being a great provider—I'm giving them all these things.” I never really felt that I was doing anything wrong. That's part of my problem—was not reading the Bible / staying in the Bible and allowing God to talk to me. You know: “I'm going to help God. I'm going to show Him how I can do things,”—it did not work for me. I'm not an authority, but I can just tell you—in my life, I messed it up because it was about me. Had I been in the Scriptures and had I been getting daily lessons—and treated my marriage as a partnership, where I die to self and take half of her and she half of me—we wouldn't have a divorce. 21:00 I want to tell you—I would rather die than I had to go through a divorce. It was the most devastating, painful failure that I'd ever been through in my life. Dennis: So to that person, who is listening right now, who is maybe on the precipice of jumping, you'd say, “Don't do it!” Hank: Absolutely! “Do not do it! At all costs / at all costs, save your marriage.” Bob: If we can help, that's what we're here for. Our goal, here, at FamilyLife is to provide help and hope for marriages and families. I'm thinking, Dennis, of our Weekend to Remember ® getaways—and the couples who have come, who have lost hope; but who hear a message at the Weekend to Remember that God uses to turn their marriage around. It doesn't always happen—there are some couples who come and the breakthrough doesn't happen. 22:00 But for a lot of couples, the Weekend to Remember getaway is the turning point for a marriage that has been headed in the wrong direction for a long time. They get rerouted and they find themselves in a new place on a new path. They have a fresh hope for their marriage. I just encourage our listeners—if you've not attended a Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com to get more information. We still have a handful of these getaways happening this summer. Tomorrow in Texas—in Austin and in Houston—we've got getaways kicking off; and then continuing through the summer—in Arizona / Las Vegas—other getaways taking place. You can find out more about the Weekend to Remember, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call if you have any questions at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and the word, “TODAY.” 23:00 And if for some reason you can't get to a getaway, and you're in a desperate spot in your marriage, give us a call. We can recommend resources—we can recommend articles you can read / programs you can listen to—things that will hopefully give you a fresh perspective on God's design for your marriage and how it can, not just survive, but how it can actually thrive. And by the way, we should say, “Thank you,” to the listeners who support this ministry, financially; because you guys are a big part of all that God is doing through the ministry of FamilyLife. You make it possible for what happens here to be heard by more people around the world through more devices / through more means than ever before—more people visiting our website / more people attending our events. You make that happen every time you donate to support this ministry. You are extending the reach of FamilyLife Today, and we are grateful for your support. 24:00 You can give a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. You can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate; or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we are going to hear about the Parker family—the Parker boys. We want to hear about what your sons are up to—have got some great stories to share with you tomorrow. I hope you can tune in as we continue our conversation this week with Hank Parker. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® ministry.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

The Original Resurrection Eggs Show - Barbara Craft

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 3, 2020 28:37

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ Guest: Barbara Craft From the series: Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ (Day 1 of 1) Bob: In 1994, a grandmother by the name of Barbara Craft heard about a way to use plastic Easter eggs to share the Easter story with friends, neighbors and children. She fell in love with the idea. Barbara: The idea that I like about this is you're getting the Bible in front of them—you're getting the Word of God. This is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. This is something—they may remember the donkey, the nails—but it's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 2nd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear some FamilyLife Today history today as we hear about the first time Barbara Craft shared with us the idea for what became Resurrection Eggs®. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We have people who will pull us aside, from time to time; and they'll say to us: “You know who you guys ought to interview? You ought to have so-and-so as a guest on your program.” We often get some great recommendations from listeners who suggest someone that we ought to talk to. Dennis: We do. I agree. Bob: We try to dig and say: “Okay, what would our listeners be most interested in? What would be most helpful? What is the best kind of practical, biblical help we can give them related to marriage and family?” I remember when somebody on our staff, more than 20 years ago, pulled me aside and said, “Do you know who you ought to interview?” And they told me about a grandma, who was on staff, here at FamilyLife. I have to confess to you, I thought, “Yeahhh, we're probably not going to do an interview with a grandma who's on staff.” You know? 2:00 Dennis: This is not just any grandma. This is Barbara Craft. She is a woman of the Word. She is a wife, a mom, a grandmother who has taken her role seriously. When she found out about a way to be able to bring the reality of Easter into her family—but also the families of her neighbors—she jumped all over it. Bob: This was a craft project she put together: —a basket full of plastic eggs—each one with a symbol of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Dennis: There must have been 25 to 30 different eggs in the basket that she brought in. Bob: I just thought: “How are we going to talk about plastic eggs on a radio program? People can't see it. It's a nice idea—“ Dennis: Well, we always are interested in helping families have an outreach to others. Bob: And that's ultimately why we decided, “Let's go ahead and have Barbara on.” I remember thinking, in the back of my mind, “You know, if the interview doesn't go well, we don't have to use it.” Well, the interview went fine; didn't it? 3:00 Dennis: It went so well, in fact—just a little bit more to the story. I don't remember exactly how it occurred; but as we were interviewing her, it all made so much sense. Somehow, we put our heads together and said: “You know, we really can't put these eggs in a basket and ship them in the mail to listeners who want them. I would think people would like to have a dozen of these eggs of their own.” We thought: “What if you took a carton and filled it full of these eggs—with the objects that are in them that tell the story of Easter—that help a mom and dad, grandma / grandpa, or help a young family share Christ in their neighborhood with the world's largest Easter egg party? What if we had something like that?” Well, we put together a few of them— Bob: We put together 3,000 sets. Dennis: Were you out there? Bob: I was not out there. Dennis: I was out there—at our kids' junior high cafeteria. We worked all Saturday. I prayed over those 3,000 sets—I said, “Lord, God, I pray these don't end up in our warehouse for the next 20 or 30 years.” 4:00 Bob: We were putting little donkeys into one egg, and putting coins in another egg. Dennis: A rock representing the stone that was put in front of Christ's grave in another, and then, of course, there was the easiest one to assemble of all—which had nothing in it. Bob: That's right, the empty egg which represents the tomb. And here's the thing—we did the 3,000 sets; and we also made available a list so, if anybody wanted to create their own set, they could just—“Here, you need to find a donkey, and you need to find a little pebble, you need to find the coins…” and all that. “Get your own plastic eggs.” Well, we had people calling us saying, “We want multiple sets of those.” Those 3,000 were gone like that! That first year, we wound up assembling an additional 7,000 to send out to our listeners. Dennis: And I'm going to tell our listeners—I was not there on the second Saturday they had to be assembled. In fact, I think we found someone—a bunch of teenagers to be able to—[Laughter] 5:00 Bob: [Laughter] You scheduled a weekend out of town when you heard that was happening, as I remember. Well, today, we thought it would be fun for our listeners to go back and hear that very first interview, from 20 years ago, when Barbara Craft—that grandmother who was on staff, here at FamilyLife—came into the studio and brought the very first Resurrection Eggs that we had ever seen. [Recorded Interview] Dennis: Our table is covered with eggs here. It's really quite festive here, Bob. Tell us: “What do all these eggs represent, Barbara?” and, “How did you come up with the idea of teaching about Easter through an object lesson like eggs?” Barbara: Well, I didn't come up with the idea. I'm not a creative-type person. I'm one that sees an idea and I can go with it. I was in our home, teaching ladies how to do a craft project—using paper bags and paper twists—and making this soft, frilly basket that you see in front of here now. 6:00 Well, we were making the baskets. One of the girls mentioned this story of telling the Easter story with eggs. I had never heard about it. The next thing I knew she sent me a paper. It had just some Scriptures and things that you can use and put inside a plastic egg and tell the Easter story. Right away, I started making baskets for my neighbors—making sets of eggs from this craft project, and putting them in there, and just giving them out to whomever I could. Dennis: And what you've done here—you've composed a list that starts with, really, Palm Sunday and objects associated with that. You've just followed, chronologically, all the events of Easter and the verses that accompany them. You've selected objects that illustrate each of those events. Let me just pull out one of these eggs here—this one here—[jingling sound]—three dimes. Okay, Barbara, what does that represent? 7:00 Barbara: Well, that represents the 30 pieces of silver that Judas betrayed Christ for. Dennis: And out, beside that, you've got Matthew 27:3-5 so the children—or for that matter, the adults—are getting the opportunity to go to the Scripture to really study the Easter story. Barbara: Yes. Bob: I bet kids would have a great time figuring out what each thing inside the egg represents. Barbara: I did it in a Sunday school class of three- and four-year-olds at our church. I hid the eggs, and then they came in. Of course, there's that adventure of finding the eggs. All the eggs have a number on them. Then, we sat around in a circle; and they would give me their egg, starting with number one. We would open it up, and then I would ask them what it was. Again, this was three- and four-year-olds—they were so still. Of course, they are just so excited because they want to open their eggs. They want you to hurry up and get to theirs. 8:00 And then they wanted to hide them again. They wanted to do it again, and again, and the hour was gone. The idea that I like about this is—you're getting the Bible in front of them. You're getting the Word of God—this is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. It's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Dennis: I think there is a great need today, in Christian families, to do more than just crack open this Book; but to get our kids diving into it afresh—discovering their own insights and talking about the relevance of these objects in their lives today. “What is the symbolism of the nails and the verse that goes along with that?”—Christ's death on the cross. We have hope because of this—and bringing that hope to our kids—and maybe even using these eggs as an opportunity to lead your kids to Christ. 9:00 Barbara: And then, when you come to this empty egg—and again, that representing that He is no longer in that tomb—and then telling them: “Where is He today? He is seated at the right hand of the Father.” Dennis: I think it is so easy to just assume our kids understand redemption: “What sent Jesus to the cross? Why did He have to die?” It was our sin—our breaking of God's law—our fallen nature that sent Christ to the cross—and really created a need for God to step out of eternity, in His Son, to redeem us back to Himself and to write our names in heaven. Barbara: What you have just done is what I'm hoping that this project will do. Having something like this that you can see and touch—it is fun, and it has a powerful message to each one. Dennis: It really does. Barbara Craft, you have helped us, today, to be able to focus on that message. 10:00 I want to thank you for doing that because we can make Easter a profoundly simple and yet powerful spiritual experience—not only for us—but for our children, as well, and pass on a legacy to the next generation. Barbara Rainey: One of the things that I think is neat about this is that there are different applications for using it. For instance, you could use it like an Advent wreath at Christmas—and use one egg per day or one object and verse per day—leading up to Easter. Or you could take the ones and just use them for the particular event the week of Easter, starting with the triumphal entry on the Sunday before. Then, you could use the objects that happened on the Thursday before Easter, and then the ones that illustrate what happened on Good Friday, and you could walk your way through Easter week. I think that there are lots of different ways that a family could use this, depending on the ages of your children or how you wanted to celebrate Easter together. You could talk this through and try one one year and try another another year, and see what works best for your family. 11:00 Barbara: I think that is right—and if you have them all out—where they can see them during the day, and touch them, and play with them, or whatever they're going to do with this—then, again, they're reminded of the Scripture: “What does this sword represent, to me, about Easter?” Or you could do that sometime during the day—again, asking, “Well, what do you remember about that sword we talked about three days ago?” It's just that continual remembering and reminding that we're so often told to do in Scripture. We don't remember it the first time. Barbara Rainey: Right. Bob: During the Easter season, a family could use these eggs to really spark their family devotions, whether it's at breakfast every morning—having a different egg on the table and opening it up, talking about what's in there, reading the Scripture. Maybe, at dinner or after dinner—go in the living room and have it—but it would just be a great way to give children a visual connection with the story so they're not just hearing it told; but they're seeing it with the symbols, right there, before them. Barbara: Maybe, you could hide the egg. There's always that—children love that element of seeking and finding. So, maybe— 12:00 Dennis: What do you mean—“children”? [Laughter] I love to go on scavenger hunts. Barbara: Yes, I do, too. I do, too. You can hide an egg someplace; and whoever finds it that day could tell the story—that evening, at dinner. They could tell the Scripture that's with that. There's just a variety—I love hearing this creativity. That's what I am just hoping is going to come about as a result of this. [Studio] Bob: Well, we've been back in the archives, listening to a program recorded more than 20 years ago. Dennis: With a friend—a dear, dear beloved friend, Barbara Craft. Bob: It's good to hear her voice; isn't it? Dennis: It is. It is, and she couldn't have fathomed that this would go on to see more than 1.5 million dozen of these eggs distributed, all the way around the world. Bob: If she could have fathomed that, she would have come in and said, “Let me show you my copyrighted Resurrection Eggs.” [Laughter] Dennis: No, I don't think she would have. Barbara was all about outreach—wanting to share Christ with people. Bob: She was. Dennis: That's what prompted her in the first place. 13:00 Not long after we had Barbara here in the studio, we made a phone call to another grandmother. This grandmother may have been interested in sharing the eggs with her grandchildren; but it ended up sounding, to me, like that she was really excited about sharing them with her adult children. Bob: Yes. Her name is Cindy. She's a friend of Barbara Craft's. Barbara had shared the idea with her. So, we called her and said, “Tell us what you thought about the Resurrection Eggs.” [Recorded Interview] Cindy: When Barbara asked me if I would like these, I thought, “This is kind of hokey, but I like the idea.” And she had gone to so much trouble. So, I took them; and then, after I had them—when Easter came, I thought, “This is how I can do something in the center of my table after we come home from lunch.” I just decorated the table with them, and they didn't ask too many questions about it. When it was over, I just said, “We have a game we're going to play.” 14:00 I said: “The eggs all have numbers on them. As you turn them up, we need to try to decide, whatever is in the egg: ‘What does that represent that has to do with the biblical account of Jesus' resurrection?'” I was amazed at how they enjoyed it. They had a great time with it. So, that is something that— I know now I can have on my table every Easter, and it won't make any difference. It will be wonderful now when the little ones can come and participate. But no, I used it with adult children. And they didn't know what all of them were. It took a little while; but even one of my children—that is not so much in church now, but very well-trained—he enjoyed that. I thought, “That is not cramming it down their throat.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Cindy, I want to thank you for being on FamilyLife Today and sharing your story with us. Cindy: You're quite welcome. Bye-bye. 15:00 [Studio] Bob: That's a phone call we made 20 years ago to a grandma who was using Resurrection Eggs—not with her grandchildren—but with her adult children. Just in case listeners were wondering, the other voice they heard there was a young Dennis Rainey. [Laughter] Dennis: It did sound a lot younger; didn't it? [Laughter] There's another phone call we made to Leah. She had three daughters that she wanted to share the story of Easter with. Bob: And this became a tradition for her family. [Recorded Interview] Leah: I've been just mesmerized; and to this day, we've done it for probably four years—it's kind of a tradition. Bob: Now, how old were the girls the first time y'all did this? Leah: Probably two, four, and six. Bob: Do you do it on Easter? Leah: No, we kind of use the week before Easter to prepare our hearts to worship the risen Lord on Sunday. So, it's not just Sunday that we worship on and observe Easter. Dennis: Leah, how do you involve your husband, Gene, in the process of sharing the eggs with your children? 16:00 Leah: Well, one thing that is really neat to do is Gene will hide the eggs in a certain room, and have the children find the eggs. That way, it makes the story of Jesus' resurrection a treasure to find. If they find the eggs, that's their reward—the Word of God is their reward. It's just a very creative way to share the Easter story with children because they love to see what's inside of something. In one of the eggs is a nail. You read to your child about how they nailed Jesus to the cross. They would take that—and I remember my five-year-old—her face. She went, “Whoa, Mommy!” to see a nail. Then, they would place it on their hands—on the inside of their little palms—just to see what that felt like. [Emotion in voice] 17:00 I think that the nail is the most powerful item in the eggs—that visual that you can hold in your hand. You can feel it and to see it. It's very powerful. I think that it just brings it home, and it brings the understanding to a deeper level for a child. Bob: I want to talk to your kids. Leah: Oh, you do. Okay. Bob: Yes. Why don't we start with Rebekah? Rebekah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Rebekah. How are you? Rebekah: Fine, thank you. How are you? Bob: I'm fine. Listen, we wanted to talk to you. You know the special Easter eggs that your mommy has? Rebekah: Yes. Bob: Tell me what they are. Rebekah: Well, there are ten eggs, and they all tell the story. There will be a little paragraph that she says—that's a Bible verse. Then, we'll take turns reading it. One would be—it'd say, “He died on the cross,” and there'd be a wooden cross, or “Feed my sheep,” and there'd be a little lamb. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Rebekah, this is Mr. Rainey. Do you really like going through those eggs? 18:00 Rebekah: Yes! Bob: Can we talk to Rachel? Rebekah: Sure; one moment. Rachel: Hello? Dennis: Rachel. Rachel: Yes. Dennis: This is Mr. Rainey. How are you doing today? Rachel: Fine. Dennis: Your mom did something last Easter with some eggs. Do you remember that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Tell us about them. What do you do with those eggs? Rachel: Well, she'll read a verse, and we'll open it up, and see what's inside. Dennis: Like, what will be inside? Rachel: Like the cross where Jesus died, and like the empty egg. Dennis: Do you really like to do that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Why? Rachel: It's fun. Bob: Does it get boring when your parents bring out those eggs, or do you like it? Rachel: I like it. Bob: But, don't they make you sit down and listen? Rachel: Yes. Bob: But that's okay? Rachel: Yes! Bob: Tell you what. Can we talk to Sarah? Rachel: Sure. Bob: Okay, thanks. Sarah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Sarah? Sarah: Hi. Bob: How are you? Sarah: Fine. Bob: Are you? Do you know Mr. Rainey? Sarah: Yes. 19:00 Bob: Do you? Okay. Dennis: Hi, Sarah. This is Mr. Rainey. Do you remember the Easter eggs that your mom uses every year? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Do you like them? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Why do you like them? Sarah: Because they're fun to open. Bob: What kinds of things does she put in those eggs? Sarah: Money, the cross, a nail, the empty egg. Bob: You remember a lot of them. Sarah, can we talk to your mommy again? Sarah: Okay. Bob: Thanks. Dennis: Bye-bye. Leah: Hello? Bob: We'll probably have some listeners who will think about doing this with their kids at Easter time. Would you encourage them to? Leah: I really would! It's just such a simple but impactful way to share the Easter story—a creative way / a different way. Dennis: Well, Leah—thanks for being on the broadcast. Leah: Oh, sure. Bye-bye. [Studio] Bob: Well, again, it's fun to go back and listen to some of the early phone calls we made when we were first talking to moms about the idea of a set of eggs that they could use during Easter week to tell their children the story of the resurrection. 20:00 Dennis: It worked back then, and it's working today. We just decided we would take the resource and re-release it with a 20th Anniversary Edition. I think what was already excellent, and outstanding, and a whole lot of fun has really been moved up a notch. It's cool because the booklet that goes with the eggs is available both in English and Spanish. Bob: In fact, look at the back of your carton there—Resurrection Eggs—can you read what it says there on the back? Dennis: Not upside down. Bob: Look. Read that out loud to our listeners. Dennis: Are you talking about the English, of course; aren't you? Bob: Huevitos de Resurreccion™—so Resurrection Eggs. The carton comes with both English and Spanish so that listeners can use it in either setting. Dennis: Bob is flaunting two things there—one, his experience from San Antonio— Bob: Huevitos. 21:00 Dennis: There you go; and secondly, he's also reminding me of my Spanish and the grade I received. Bob: What grade did you get in Spanish? [Laughter] Dennis: It was in eighth grade—that was the year. Gratefully, they did pass me on to the ninth grade—but not because I excelled in the language of Spanish. Bob: I don't think you've said the grade yet. What was that grade that you got? Dennis: It was south of “D.” [Laughter] Bob: We, of course, have Resurrection Eggs in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. Our listeners can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to order a set of these eggs to use, this year, at Easter time. Or if you live near a Christian bookstore, many Christian bookstores have Resurrection Eggs. I know Family Christian Store has them—I think Lifeway and Mardel have them. There are even Walmart®s, across America, that have Resurrection Eggs this year at Easter—just a great tool to use to share the story of Easter with children, with neighbors, with relatives. 22:00 Find out more. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. The information about Resurrection Eggs is available right there. You can order from us online. There is also information about the resources Barbara Rainey has been creating that can be used at Easter time to, not only share the story of Easter, but to beautifully decorate your home for the holiday, as well. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. There is information about these resources there. You can order from us, online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY; 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY.” Now, let me say a special word of thanks to those of you who are regular listeners to FamilyLife Today and have listened long enough to know that what we're all about, as a ministry, resonates with what you believe, as a family. 23:00 We are here to provide practical biblical help for your marriage and your family. We believe that if we can effectively develop godly families, those godly families can change the world, one home at a time. And we appreciate those of you who share in that mission and who help support the mission through your prayers and your financial contributions. If you can help us with a donation right now, we'd like to send you, as a thank-you gift, a set of three prayer cards—one that will give you specifics on how to pray more effectively for your husband, another card on how to pray for your wife, and then a third card for the two of you to use together to pray for your children. These are our way of saying: “Thank you for your support of the ministry. We really do appreciate your partnership.” Simply go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, “I Care.” You can make an online contribution; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. Make a donation over the phone, and ask for the prayer cards when you do that. 24:00 Or request the prayer cards and mail a check to FamilyLife Today at P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Tomorrow, we'll hear more from people who have used Resurrection Eggs as a way to share the news of Easter with friends and family members. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

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Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb Kaltenbach

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 3, 2020 27:20

Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Loving My Gay Parents Guest: Caleb Kaltenbach From the series: Messy Grace (Day 1 of 3) Bob: Caleb Kaltenbach's parents divorced when he was young. His mom came out as a lesbian; his dad came out as a gay man. That gave Caleb a unique perspective on life. Caleb: I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, July 2nd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. Caleb Kaltenbach grew up in what I think we'd all agree was a somewhat messy family situation. He had to learn, eventually, how to apply what he calls “messy grace.” Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, every family is messy at some level; right? But there are— Dennis: No doubt. I was just withholding the answer there because— Bob: It's self-evident; isn't it? Dennis: Wow! I mean, you get six children, two imperfect parents; I mean, what are you going to get? You're going to get some—some messiness. This is where I think the Bible has all kinds of relevance, because it's about messy people. It's about imperfect people / imperfect stories and how God, in His sovereign majesty, works out a story that honors Him. Bob: Yes; I love what Matt Chandler says— 2:00 —he says, “It's okay not to be okay; it's just not okay to stay there.” [Laughter] That's what the story of redemption's all about! Dennis: Well, we have a guest with us today who has quite a story. Now, I just want you to know—as a listener, I don't know what you're doing; but set it aside—because what you're going to hear is going to be riveting—I am confident of that. He has written a book called Messy Grace, and it is subtitled: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction. Now, that is a mouthful! Bob: Yes. Dennis: We have with us Caleb Kaltenbach. Welcome to the broadcast. Caleb: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Dennis: Caleb, this lead line over the title of your book, How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others—wow! Take us back to the home you grew up in. I mean, I've heard a lot of stories; but I'm not sure I've heard one about a pastor who came from that kind of background. 3:00 Caleb: I was raised in Columbia, Missouri, and Kansas City—actually, I started out in Columbia. Both my parents were professors at the University of Missouri-Columbia and at local schools there—taught subjects like philosophy, law, rhetoric, and English literature. When I was two, they got a divorce; and both of them entered into same-sex relationships. My mom went into a 22-year-long monogamous relationship with her partner, Vera—she was a psychologist. Now, my dad on the other hand—he had several different relationships. He never had one relationship that lasted. I actually—I didn't even know about my dad until I got to be college-age—maybe just graduated from college—but I kind of always had my suspicions; I don't know. But I was raised by three gay parents. Bob: This is at a time that is unlike today, when these relationships tended to be more closeted. Were your parents “out” about their sexual preference? Caleb: My dad was in the closet. My mom and her partner, as I said—they did go to Kansas City. 4:00 They were very loud and proud, and very out. They were on the board of directors for the Kansas City chapter of GLAD. They were activists. They took me with them to Gay Pride parades, and bars, and clubs when I was preschool age/elementary age. I remember going with them to activist events. I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” If that wasn't offensive enough, they were spraying people with water and urine at one of the particular parades. Dennis: Oh! Bob: Oh! Caleb: I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember just, right now to this day, I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.” That stuck with me. My whole childhood, I was raised to believe that. 5:00 I saw that when AIDS was developing in America and spreading, and we were learning more about it. Many of my mom's friends contracted it. I remember one man, named Louis, who was a young man—his family was Christian. They already didn't accept him, because he was in a same-sex relationship. When he got AIDS, they really didn't want to have anything to do with him. We went and visited him in a hospital one time. Dennis: Yes; you describe a scene in your book that is pretty— Caleb: Right. Dennis: —pretty amazing. Caleb: Yes; and the most disturbing thing was—obviously, it's disturbing to see somebody die from AIDS, if you've ever seen that—but seeing his family being so nonchalant, while they were reading their Bibles, lined up against the wall, like they were waiting for a firing squad to come get them. That, to me, was unforgivable at that time. Dennis: They were not next to his bed— Caleb: No. Dennis: —holding his hand, speaking love to him. They were kind of huddled together in another section of the room, not caring for him at all. Caleb: No; and they wouldn't even talk to us. I remember my mom looked at me and she said, “Hey, Christians hate gay people.” 6:00 Bob: So you grew up with that as your view of Christians and Christianity. At the same time, you're going to elementary school. You had to be the only kid in your school who had two moms. Caleb: Oh, I didn't tell anybody that I had two moms—I didn't tell anybody. Even as a young kid, I wondered about my dad; but I didn't tell anybody because, even though, at that age, I didn't think there was anything wrong about that relationship—at the same time, I knew that I was different. I did not want to get made fun of. Bob: So you just would tell folks you lived with your mom, and your mom and dad were divorced; and that was it? Caleb: And I would go back and forth; absolutely. Dennis: Was it 50-50? Caleb: No; I spent most of the time with my dad. Dennis: I've been looking forward to talking with you; because I'm seeing children today grow up in homes, where they have two same-sex parents. I'm just wondering: “What's happening in the life of that child? What's that child thinking/feeling?” What was going on in your life, emotionally, if you can think back and articulate kind of what you were thinking and feeling? Caleb: I remember Vera, my mother's partner. 7:00 We did not get along at all, almost from Day One, when I was a little kid. There was a real jealousy/competition factor with her and my mother. I remember learning, at a very young age, that Vera really hated men. Even though I was a little boy, I was still a man—representative of that. If I had time to take you through her past / my mom and dad's past, you would totally understand where they would get that hatred from. I even understand it today. I don't think that's the right response, but I understand how that could be a response. This is where I think parenting is so incredibly important on two levels. Number one, parents have got to learn that they have to deal with their issues; because whatever their burdens are, when they don't deal with them and seek healing from them, they pass them onto their kids. Their kids now have to bear the burdens that their parents do. But also, our kids—and I'm very mindful of this with my own kids— 8:00 —are always watching me: and how I handle stressful situations and how I handle life—because they model their achievement of emotional balance through watching me and their mother. We want to do that in a Christ-like way so, when they see that life is difficult / that life is tough, they see us turning to God. They don't see us raging, or ignoring them, or doing things like that, or being abusive. Dennis: So back to the question, Caleb. As a little boy, growing up—obviously, you said you spent most of your time with your dad. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: Were you ashamed that you had two mommies? Caleb: I wasn't ashamed; I did not want to be made fun of. They never came together to any events. I knew that there was something wrong. What was really ironic was, even if you were to look at Vera and my mother's relationship, Vera took on the role of the man in the relationship. Then my mom took on the role of the woman. Even within their relationship, they still mirrored the image that the Creator set up in the covenant of marriage. Even though it was not the right image, it's always been fascinating that, even within that, we still mirror what God originally set up. Does that make sense? 9:00 Dennis: Yes. Bob: Your dad, you said, was a bachelor. Caleb: Yes. Bob: He's who you spent most of your time with. At what age did you start to become aware of the fact: “Hey, my family's different; I've got two moms.” You're starting to understand human sexuality for yourself at—I guess, 10, 11, or 12 years old—whatever age it was. When did you start to put the pieces together that the family you were in was unusual? Caleb: When I was in elementary school, because I would see everybody else talk about their parents and so on and so forth. I started watching my dad. I knew that he did not have a girlfriend. I knew that he spent time around one person in particular. He had different people over, and then I wouldn't see them for a while. There was an ebb and flow that just was not ever consistent—there was hardly any consistency. By the time I got to high school, my worldview was very whacked-out. I mean, I did not have a Christian worldview, obviously. Bob: But when you grow up in that situation and that's your normal, a lot of young people just think: “This is normal. 10:00 “It may not be the same as everybody else's, but my situation is not a wrong situation.” Caleb: Yes; but the thing is that there's no standard then. The Bible provides a standard in holy living—sanctification—and how we should live our lives in every aspect / in every domain of our life. Dennis: And you didn't have that. Caleb: No; I didn't have that. My worldview had no standard; it had no basis. It was always shifting. It was like culture—culture is always changing, because people always change; because there's no focal point. When you follow Jesus, He's the focal point; He's the standard; He's by which you measure everything and make your decisions. Bob: Did you have any sexual ethic?—any personal sexual ethic? Caleb: No; I didn't. I mean, I never had premarital sex or anything like that. I never got into anything destructive; but I was of the mindset that anything you wanted to do, as long as it didn't hurt anybody, was okay. You know, more of a Modern Family-type mindset, I guess you would say. Bob: Right. So what your mom and dad had chosen to do— 11:00 —you looked at that and said: “That's their choice,” or “That's who they are. They're just being true to who they are.” Caleb: “That's good for them.” I've never experienced same-sex attraction. My mom would always ask me a lot, “Well, it is okay, Caleb; it is okay.” Even as a young kid, I would say: “I've always liked girls. I'm sorry; I don't…” Some of the times, I felt like my mom was trying to talk me into it—you know, again, they were activists. They were very justice oriented. Dennis: Growing up in this home, where you didn't have a healthy relationship between a mother and a father, in a biblical sense, and without a standard—I was just wondering how you handled—you sure didn't have the culture shoving it down your throat as it does today; but you weren't confused, it doesn't sound like, at all. Caleb: No; I thought it was okay for them to do whatever; but you've got to understand, from the very beginning, my parents raised me differently. I mean, I'll just give you an example—I don't write about this in the book—but one of the first movies I ever saw, as a kid, was An American Werewolf in London. Bob: Wow. Caleb: Still scares me today, thinking about it. 12:00 But you think about that!—there was no standard; there were no boundaries. That's one of the things I realized about my childhood—that there were no boundaries. There were boundaries with my parents, but they're very long-stretched. When I would step over one—usually, when I would question their sexuality or their choice to be in a same-sex relationship, even at a young age—the consequences were very swift. That's how I grew up, so I had that same justice within me. I got invited to go to this Bible study when I was in high school—led by a high schooler for high schoolers. I thought: “This is perfect! I'm going to go, and I'm going to pretend to be a Christian. I'm going to be a ninja-Christian. I'm going to go in there…” Bob: [Laughter] A ninja-Christian? Caleb: A ninja-Christian. Dennis: Now, hold it! What's that? Caleb: Well, you know: “I'm going to go in there and I'm going—I'm going to pretend to talk the lingo. I'm going to learn about the Bible and dismantle their faith with my questions,”—that was my plan. I never owned a Bible. 13:00 I grabbed a New Revised Standard Version, and I didn't know what that meant. I just figured they revised something, and I took it. [Laughter] You've got to understand—I had never been in a Christian household before in my entire life—like an evangelical, conservative Christian household. Imagine me walking in, and the first thing I notice on the wall—I looked at my friend that came with me and I said, “Why are there framed pictures of sheep, and lions, and Bible verses all over the house?” I looked at my friend and I said: “Is this part of the deal? If I turn Christian, do I have to get a sheep picture?” [Laughter] I mean, because I had never seen so many framed pictures of sheep before in my life! [Laughter] Dennis: I want to take you back to the Gay Pride parade that you marched in as a boy. You gave some—really, I can't imagine, from a descriptive standpoint—having somebody spit on you, and toss water, and, as you said, urine on a little boy and have so many people hating you because you were marching in a parade on behalf of the whole LGBTQ community. 14:00 What would you say was the most hurtful and hateful thing you experienced, as a boy, growing up, from the Christian community? I'm picturing you going to this Bible study—it's like I would think you would be a ninja, going into that thing; because you'd had some harm done to you by the Christian community. Was there anything done, as you grew up as a boy, that you would characterize as the most hurtful and hateful thing? Caleb: Yes; one time my mother and I were driving through Kansas to visit my family. There were these Christians on the street corners, holding up signs. I remember my mother's car was a purple RAV4. You've got to understand—she had bumper—she was very loud and proud—she had bumper stickers on there, like: “Lorena Bobbitt for Surgeon General” and stuff like that. I mean, “Graduate of Thelma & Louise Finishing School.” I mean, you'd spot it a mile away; you know? I remember, my mom didn't do anything to them. 15:00 She pulled up, and they saw her stickers. They started cussing at her, and they started yelling at her and spitting. I just looked at my mom. She started crying in that moment, because she felt humiliated. I remember thinking about that, and I remember— Dennis: How old were you as a boy? Caleb: I must have been close to middle school. It was not my best moment—I rolled down the window and flipped them the bird. I got a hold of their newsletter. They put that on the front of it, saying, “Look at our persecution.” Hopefully, that's gone out of print. I just remember my mom and her reaction of them immediately judging her without getting to know her, and just the humiliation and the tears, and just the pain that she had. It was so raw that, when I looked at a Christian, I thought about that. Bob: So when somebody comes to you and says, “Do you want to come over to a Bible study at So-and-so's house?” 16:00 You were thinking: “I want to come blow this thing up. I don't want to come and be a part of this group. I want to come and dismantle it.” Caleb: I was ready for war; I was ready for war. Bob: And yet, you walk in. There are Bible verses and pictures of sheep all over the place. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: You were probably thinking about slaughtering some sheep at that point. [Laughter] Caleb: I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know if we were going to sacrifice a chicken downstairs in the Bible study. I didn't know what would happen. So we go down there, and we're all reading through 1 Corinthians. I'm in 1 Chronicles, and they're all reading verses from Paul. Then I read a verse about somebody getting slaughtered—not a sheep though—a person. They said, “Well, Caleb, where are you?” I said, “Well, I'm in 1 Chronicles.” “Oh! You're in the Old Testament!” I said: “So, I guess there's a new one. There's updated 2.0!” or something like that. I was so embarrassed, but I kept on going back; because I'm like, “I'm not going to let these people get me down.” Dennis: Did they know where you came from? Caleb: I think a couple of them did. Definitely, when I didn't even know there was a New Testament, they were like: “Oh look! Somebody that's not a Christian right there.” 17:00 Bob: Wow. Caleb: Some of the attitudes changed and softened towards me; because, when I first said that I was in 1 Chronicles: “Is there a New Testament?”—you know, a girl said, “Yes, the New Testament” as if I was supposed to know that. “I'm sorry. I must have one of those new Bibles,” you know? I didn't know. Bob: Right. Caleb: But I kept on going. It's funny; I was expecting to disprove the worldview of Christianity, but I found Somebody very different in the Gospels than what I had experienced on the street corners or the hospital rooms. Dennis: You'd actually had a young lady—prior to this Bible study; hadn't you?—who had given you what you thought was a love note? Caleb: [Sigh] Yes. That was painful. It was nice and painful at the same time, because she—you know, for elementary age, she was hot. I thought she dug my chili, but she didn't. It was a Jesus note. I remember opening it and thinking to myself: “Oh, really? A Jesus note?” I was hoping for: “Caleb, you're debonair. You're all this and more.” 18:00 You know, she explained the gospel to me. I threw away the note and told her I'd think about it. But even to this day, I still remember it; because she's probably one of the only Christians that I had a positive experience with. Actually, when I think about it now, she actually took the time to sit down and to write that out, as an elementary age schoolgirl—writing that out, letting us know about the gospel. That was huge when I think about it, and I tell my kids about that all the time. Bob: Okay; so if you could go back and have a do-over of your middle school/high school experience, and you could coach the Christians in your school on how to—how to reach out to a guy like you, what would you tell them to do differently than they did? Caleb: I would say: “Number one, don't assume that everybody else is at the same spiritual level that you are.” Bob: Yes. Caleb: I mean, even when I preach every Sunday, I don't make that, you know— Bob: —assumption. 19:00 Caleb: —assumption; exactly! Everybody's at a different spiritual level. The second thing that I would say is: “Don't automatically engage in a Bible study, where you think that everybody obviously knows: ‘Hey, we're going to go to 1 Corinthians,' ‘We're going to go to…Paul,'—this kind of thing. If you have a new person, you have no idea if they're new or not.” “Don't assume that everybody's on the same page as you when it comes to politics,” because I wasn't whatsoever. I was raised by two extremely liberal parents. I was nowhere near, and they immediately brought up politics. They immediately started trashing politicians, and so on and so forth. You've got to understand—my mother was very political! I can be very political. This was a huge turn-off; because I'm like: “Okay; these people are assuming I am where they are. These people just are moving, and I'm lost. I don't even know that there's a New Testament. They're ripping people, politically, that I know that my mom likes. 20:00 “So far, it feels like the same thing, except I'm sitting down with the enemy. It feels like I'm sitting in the Trojan horse almost”; you know?—that's what it felt like in that moment. Dennis: Just listening to where you'd come from, I'm amazed you became a believer. It had to be God chasing you down—and His love and His grace. Caleb: It was the sovereignty of God, absolutely; 100 percent. Dennis: Yes. Caleb: I mean, I learned——the more that I studied Jesus, Dennis, I learned that He had very deep theological convictions and expectations for how we should live our life. He also had very deep relationships with people—who are far from God and not like Him, which, I guess, was everybody was not like Him—but still, He pursued people that the religious culture would not. He pursued people that even secular society wouldn't either. He really marched to the beat of His own drum. Dennis: Yes; you tell the story in your book about how Jesus approached the woman caught in adultery— 21:00 Caleb: Yes. Dennis: —and how the religious community didn't rescue her. They were ready to stone her. Caleb: No. Dennis: And how Jesus reached out and protected her. I think that's who you encountered in that Bible study. You ultimately found the Jesus Christ of the Gospels and of the New Testament, who fulfilled the Old Testament. He became flesh and showed us what real love looks like and what God's love for us is today. Bob: Yes; we've reflected, often here, on what John says about Jesus in John 1:14, which is that He was the picture for us—He is the revelation of the Father—but it says He's full of grace and truth. He's full of both—there's grace and there's truth. I think that's what we're having to learn to wrap our hearts and heads around, as followers of Jesus today: “How can we be full of truth?” 22:00 Well, you say it: “How Can We Learn to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction?”—that's the subtitle of the book you've written—called Messy Grace. I'd encourage our listeners to get a copy of it and read your story—read the things you've learned along the way, and how you've coached us today to do better as we engage with people who don't think the way we think about issues. Caleb Kaltenbach's book is called Messy Grace. We've got it in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329—1-800-FL-TODAY—or go online to order at FamilyLifeToday.com. We want to take a minute here and just say a quick word of thanks to those of you who are, not just regular listeners to FamilyLife Today— 23:00 —and while we're glad to have all of our regular listeners tuning in—thank you for doing that. We want to give a special shout-out to those of you who make this program possible. I don't know how many listeners realize this; but in your community, there are a small number of people who have made it possible for you to hear what you've heard today. They are friends of this ministry, who will, either on occasion or on a regular basis, support FamilyLife Today with a donation. During the summer months, we often see a decline in the number of folks we hear from, who are helping to support this program. If you're a regular listener—if programs like the one you've heard today are helpful for you and your family / if you think this is an important conversation to be having in your community—would you join the FamilyLife® team and help make this program possible on an ongoing basis? You can do that by giving, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And you can mail your donation to us. 24:00 Our address is FamilyLife Today, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the difference between accepting someone and approving of someone; because, as we'll hear from Caleb Kaltenbach, that's an important distinction. I hope you can be back with us again tomorrow. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Messy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb Kaltenbach

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 3, 2020 27:26

Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Loving Our Gay Friends and Neighbors Guest: Caleb Kaltenbach From the series: Messy Grace (Day 3 of 3) Bob: There is a right way and a wrong way for us to hold fast to biblical truth and still have healthy relationships with our LGBT friends. Caleb Kaltenbach offers an example of the wrong way to go about that. Caleb: Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT. So, Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that he has to let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1—and we'll throw in 1 Corinthians 6—but without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this gay man over here that, now, realized he's being treated like a project. He walks away, rejecting everything / feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is—he has pushed this man further away from God. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 4th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. 1:00 How can we represent Jesus well as we build healthy relationships with people who don't live like us, or think like us, or believe like us? That's what we're going to talk about today. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition, here, on Independence Day in the United States. I'm guessing there are not many people in America we could talk to who grew up in a home where mom and dad got a divorce; mom moved in with her lesbian partner; dad remained a bachelor and later came out of the closet as a gay man; and where the son, who grew up in that situation, wound up going to Bible college, committing his life to fulltime ministry. I'm guessing that's a relatively unusual story. Dennis: I'm guessing it is, too; but it's what makes this book, Messy Grace, a compelling read. I think this is a safe way for a mom/a dad, a husband/a wife, who is trying to figure out: 2:00 “How do I relate to people who don't believe like I do?”—this is a safe place to go read—and maybe something that some groups of people need to dig into and do a Bible study around—and just interact around these chapters; because I think what our guest on the show today has done is—he's invited all of us into his life / into a world we don't know a whole lot about. By doing so, he's coaching us as the son of two gay moms / as the son of a father, who after divorcing his mom, came out as a homosexual as well. You know, I just think—as you said, Bob—there's not that many that can offer that kind of insight and coach us from that standpoint. Caleb Kaltenbach joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Caleb, welcome back. Caleb: Hey, it's great to be here. Dennis: Bob gave a good overview of your life. He hit something kind of quickly that I want you to unpack for us. Your moms had thrown you out of the house when you said you were becoming a follower of Christ; your dad had done virtually the same. 3:00 What did they say when you said you wanted to go to a Bible school? Caleb: Again, my mother's partner was a psychologist—a PhD / very smart. Both of my parents were university professors. When I told them that I wanted to go to a Bible college—and in their minds, a narrow-minded Bible college—it did not go over at all. They just said: “You're paying for everything on your own. You—there is no way we're going to help you out with it—nothing is going to happen there,” and “I can't believe that you would even consider that. You're going to wind up homeless on the street; and you're going to be eating ramen noodles your whole life, if you can afford those.” Bob: But their view did soften over time, because one of them helped you get a loan; didn't they? Caleb: Yes; my dad eventually—because he saw that I was not backing down. It's part of my German stubbornness, I think—we don't back down too easily. I said, “This is what I'm doing, with or without my family, because I feel like God's call is that strong.” 4:00 I said, “I'm going forward with this.” My dad eventually helped me to get my first loan—that's what they did for me. I spent my weekends preaching in small, country churches to earn money for college; washed dishes in the cafeteria; did everything I could; but I really cut my teeth in Bible college by preaching at a lot of small, country churches. Dennis: How did they handle your background, or did you keep it a secret from them? Caleb: No; because I wanted people to know what they were getting into. I remember the first church I ever preached in was in Kansas—small town. We had six people in the church—the youngest one was 60. They wanted to start a youth group—it was going to be a youth group of 40-year-olds. [Laughter] I told them about my background, and they didn't like that too much. The second church I was at—I was there for about 18 months. It was in Missouri, and I was near a town called Nevada—[first “a” is long]. It should be called Nevada—[same pronunciation as the state]—but everybody called it Nevada [long “a”] in Missouri. It was near Fort Scott, Kansas. I preached there for 18 months. 5:00 Twenty-five people in the church / fifty people in the town—we were the largest church, per capita, in the world at the time, at best. Bob: Yes; right. Dennis: Right. Caleb: I kind of eased into the conversation about my parents, then; but there was one Sunday that was very, very profound to them. I kept on asking my mom to come to church with me to hear me preach. I was only, I think, at that time, a junior or a sophomore in college. I'd only had one preaching class at my Bible college, and I just really—that's how I learned how to preach. My mom finally came with me. She wouldn't come back the next Sunday; but it was a good thing because I got there—and there were two elders waiting for me on the front doorstep—they said, “Caleb, we'd like to talk to you.” They took me to the back room—there were really only two rooms / there was a front room, and there was a back room. They looked at me; and they said, “If you want to keep preaching here, don't you ever bring somebody like your mother again.” I was floored. I said, “Excuse you?” They basically said: “We don't like those kinds of people. They make us feel uncomfortable. 6:00 “We are not a church that feels comfortable with these people.” So, I said, “I quit!” They said: “Well, you can't quit today. You need to preach.” I said: “No, no, no, no. Out of all the things you want me to do today, preaching should not be one of them—trust me.” “No; we need you to preach.” I ripped up my sermon, and I preached an evangelistic message. I walked out; I got in my car; and I drove away. I said, “Lord, if You ever give me the chance to be able to lead a church—steward it with that opportunity—I want a church that is filled with people who are broken, because that's what the church is.” The church is really a beautiful mosaic of broken lives that God has united together to glorify Himself. Jesus did not die on the cross for a little members-only country club that's really a Pharisee factory—that's not what He did! He died on the cross for broken people, because only God can put broken people back together. Dennis: I have to wonder, Caleb, what the homosexual community thinks about you when they hear these stories. 7:00 Obviously, they are going to give you more “grace” / more freedom to speak. But does this gain you favor with them?—that you are speaking of them as they ought to be spoken of—people who are made in the image of God? Caleb: I think it does. I try to go a little bit further than that to help Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there's always going to be a line with me and the LGBT community; because, at the end of the day, I believe God's Word is true. I believe in the covenant of marriage—that is always going to be there, so that's the line that will never be crossed. But I think there is a respect there. I've been told by several people in the community that my book has a very gracious tone to it, and they appreciate that. I think they can't argue with the experience, but I try to get a lot of Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there are some in the LGBT community that really appreciate this, because I remember a conversation I had with my mom one time. 8:00 My mom—I don't know how we got in this conversation—but she said, “You know, Caleb, in the last several years in my relationship with Vera, we were not intimate at all.” You know, first of all, gross! I mean, I don't want to hear that from my mom; but I immediately looked at her and I said: “So, you're not a lesbian anymore. You haven't been intimate for years.” And she said: “Well, sure I am! Those are my people. I have relationships there. I'm part of a community. I'm part of a cause and a movement. I have grace there.” I said, “Well, Mom, you just described the church.” And she said: “No, I didn't. Why would I go somewhere that would make me feel less about myself?” It really dawned on me that, for my mom—she never identified as a lesbian or with the LGBT community because of who she wanted to be intimate with. I mean, even in the ever-growing acronym of the LGBTQQIIAA—I think the last “A” now stands for ally, where you can identify with the LGBT community and still be straight at the same time— 9:00 —because I think the primary thing there for a lot of people is no longer: “This is whom I want to have sex with,”—now, it is: “Who are the people that I identify with?” It really has become more of a philosophy and an ideology. Here's where a lot of Christians will misstep—I want to be careful not to say, “mistake,”— but they will do things out of order. Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT—like a gay a man. Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that, you know, he has to, at some point, let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1—and we'll throw in 1 Corinthians 6—which, I believe all those chapters, completely / I believe them, word for word—I believe they are true. But without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this man. This gay man over here, who thought he was getting a new friend, now, realized he has been treated like a project; and he walks away, rejecting everything / feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is— 10:00 —he has pushed this man further away from God. Dennis: Yes. Caleb: Here is the other thing—Joe is telling him, “Hey, do not define yourself by your sexual orientation.” But when Joe thinks, “Hey, the most important thing I've got to address first is ‘Who you want to be intimate with?'”—you have just reduced them down to their sexual orientation. The irony is—you have done to them what you've asked them not to do to themselves. I think that, as we get to know people—no matter who they are / no matter what kind of life choice they might be in—when we get to know them—and I believe that God gives opportunity for us to have difficult conversations in the context of trust and relationship—I really believe that. I believe that, if we think deeper about LGBT community / if we think deeper about this—to where, for them, it is an identity—and we say: “Okay; instead of trying to fix you—I'll leave that up to God—I'll point you to the cross, and tell you the truth; but I'm going to help you identify with Jesus, first and foremost.” 11:00 He's pretty good at life change. Dennis: And you are going to offer a community to them. Caleb: Absolutely; because we have to bring them over to our community, because nobody is going to leave one community if they don't feel like another community is safe. Dennis: Yes; it truly is an alternative lifestyle that is worth it though. Caleb: Yes; it is. Bob: When you brought your mom to church and she heard you preach, what was the conversation like after that on the way home? Caleb: She was very affirming. My mom has always been affirming of me—she's always been a big fan of me. So— Bob: “You're a good speaker.” Caleb: Yes; “You're a good speaker.” I think she looks at me as some kind of civil rights leader or something like that; you know? Bob: You've got good things to say / you're calling people to justice—that kind of thing? Caleb: Absolutely. Bob: There did come a time, though, where she started to soften to the message that you were preaching; right? Caleb: Yes; well, actually, there were two times. The first time was when I eventually graduated from Bible college. 12:00 I moved to Southern California; I lived out there for 11 years and worked at a church called Shepherd Church / Shepherd of the Hill Church. She came out, and she visited our multi-site campus one Sunday. When she heard the message, afterwards—it was funny—we were driving down [Hwy.] 101. We were almost—both of us a fatality; because she said, “I think I might be closer to accepting Christ.” When she said that, I just—I don't know what happened—I just lost control of the steering wheel. We went into the other lane. People started honking. I led my mom to cuss, at that point, by accident because she was afraid; but it was just such a unique experience. [Laughter] That was not the point that she accepted Christ; but she was softening, and she was getting to the point at that juncture in her life. Bob: So, what was the second time? Caleb: I got married in 2004—a beautiful Latina woman—she is this gorgeous lady. [Laughter] 13:00 Finally, I wanted to preach after 11 years. We moved to Dallas, Texas, to go pastor a church. When we moved there, both of my parents, separately of one another, moved there to be closer to our family. I had never really lived in like a five-mile radius of my parents since I was two; but then, my parents floored me when they said, “Can we start attending your church?” Dennis: independent of each other. Caleb: Yes; independent! They both started attending my church, and it was fascinating. What was even more annoying is that my church treated them better than I did—they loved my parents. This was a catalyst for my parents to come closer to Jesus, because they finally were around a group of people that treated them like people and not like evangelistic projects—it was huge. So, then— Dennis: I want to stop there because we had Rosaria Butterfield on FamilyLife Today, and she instructed our listeners, as well as Bob and me, how important hospitality is to the homosexual community. 14:00 That sounds like what happened in your church in Dallas—how they invited your mom and dad into community and into their homes to be able to relate to them and get to know them. Caleb: Absolutely, and I think that we should do that with everybody, period, in our churches. I mean, if you invite somebody over to your house, you know what? You're going to treat them like a guest—you're going to extend hospitality to them. At our church, every Sunday, we're always expecting guests from all walks of life; and we have people from all walks of life. You know, not everybody at my church in Dallas was excited about it, but there were quite a few who were; so, the summer of 2013, we had an opportunity to move back to Simi Valley—it was my wife's hometown; she loves it there; we have a lot of friends there. We love Southern California. My wife loves Disneyland—loves Disneyland. So, we moved back. Two weeks before we moved back, both my parents gave their lives to the Lord—both of them— Bob: —independent of one another? 15:00 Caleb: —independent of one another. Dennis: You've got to share how that happened. I mean, there is too much of a drama here and too much of a history—not to just say: “Here's what my mom did,” “Here's what my dad did.” Caleb: I remember talking with my mom; and she had been in a hospital, because she was having some health issues. She had been praying with a lot of people. She said, “Caleb, I believe that I'm a Christian.” We talked about it, and I talked to her about what she believed. I really believe, with all my heart, that she was and that she still is a Christian. Now, does she believe everything that I believe, theologically? No; she doesn't. Does she believe the fundamentals—the orthodoxy? Yes; she does. Is she still working out her salvation with fear and trembling / the sanctification process?—absolutely. God is working that in her. There is a lot of emotional hurt and pain, throughout the years, that she has to tread through; but I truly believe that she is saved. Bob: I think you raise an important point, which is: 16:00 “When somebody comes to faith, and when they do affirm the essentials of the faith, they come in with a background / with a story—with a lot of things that may have to get worked through. We need to be patient, and let people process, and let them learn from the Word of God / by the Spirit of God things that it may have taken us a while to learn.” Caleb: I tell our congregation all the time—and actually, I had a meeting with different leaders the weekend before my book released, Messy Grace. I remember in this meeting, I told our volunteers, and our leaders, and our staff, and our elder team the same thing that I say on Sunday morning—I said: “Hey, at this church, we give people margin in their lives to experience God. We don't expect people to automatically get their act together when they start attending after the third week, or the fourth week, or the fifth week. “We need to give that margin, not only for them, but also for God; because here's the deal—salvation is instantaneous; but usually, it's a process for people to get to that point; and sanctification is a process— 17:00 Bob: Right. Caleb: —“of God tearing down our prideful walls and making us more into His image. So, we give God margin to work His process.” It's not that we don't have tough conversations; it's not that we don't do church discipline when that has to be done; but there's—everybody in our church is taking their next step with Jesus somewhere. Bob: What about your dad? What was his story? Caleb: I was over at his house—his apartment, actually—and I remember I was helping him sort through some books. Unfortunately, now, my dad has Alzheimer's. He actually lives closer with us in Simi Valley; but back then, Alzheimer's was setting in, but I hadn't seen it yet. My dad has always been a little disorganized, but I was helping sort through some books. As we were just sitting there, talking and sorting through books, my dad said: “Caleb, I know I would go to church every now and then”—at the Episcopal Church—“but more than ever, now, I think I see that Jesus really does love me. 18:00 “I just feel that I have a different relationship with Him. I honestly believe that I believe in Him, and my whole relationship is at another level. I really believe that I'm saved.” I remember hearing that from my dad, again, and thinking to myself, “You've got to be kidding me!” I mean, this is the guy that grounded me when I got baptized / that kicked me out of the house. This is the guy that made fun of me for believing in Christianity because it was illogical—it was not rational; it did not fit his materialistic/physical-focused worldview—and now, completely shift. Here is a big lesson I learned from that, guys. I learned that people base so much of their view of who God is and who Jesus is off how we treat them. I learned that because, when my parents were around people who treated them like people and not like projects— 19:00 —and really lived out what Jesus says in Matthew 5:46—and actually, 43-48—and what Jesus said in Luke 6:35, when He says: “Hey, love your enemies. Do good. Lend to them, because God is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful.” You know, I'm thinking about that. It's in those moments—when people experience God working through us—they see maybe Jesus is different. If I'm going to be honest—when I was sitting in that Bible study in high school, and sitting around and engaging, and when they really knew that I was not saved, their tone changed with me. When their tone changed with me, they became more caring; and when they became more caring and treated me differently, something happened in my heart—something happened. Bob: Can I just read the verses that you referenced?—Matthew, Chapter 5, starting in verse 43— 20:00 —Jesus says: “You have heard it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good; sends the rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” That's strong stuff for all of us to hear, but that's what God's calling us to; isn't it? Caleb: Especially when you think of the first century—that Jesus was probably referring to Roman soldiers when He said, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”— 21:00 —“Love the people who have killed your family. Love the people who have killed your brother, and love the occupying force.” We have trouble loving other politicians in this country. Dennis: Caleb, we're going to come back after Bob tells listeners how they can get a copy of the book, but here is your assignment—I'm going to ask you to seat your mom and your dad across the table from you and to fulfil the Fifth Commandment. I'm going to ask you to honor and speak a tribute to both of them for what they did do right. Are you willing to do that? Caleb: Absolutely, because they did do a lot right. Bob: Let me just mention that the book that you've written, Caleb, is called Messy Grace. It tells your story of growing up in the family you grew up in and how you Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction—that's the subtitle of the book. I think it's a helpful book for all of us. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Dennis— Dennis: Well, Caleb, you've had a few minutes to think about addressing your mom and your dad and giving them both a tribute. 22:00 Speak to them both, if you would please, in the first person. Caleb: Mom and Dad, I would not be who I am without you. You've instilled in me a sense of justice / a pursuit of those who are different and not like me. You've instilled in me a love of academics, education, logical thinking. You've instilled in me love. Even through the tough moments, there was never a moment when I ever doubted that you loved me. Even through the tough moments of moving from house to house, I never doubted for a second that you loved me. I know that you love me, still, to this day. I know that God, in His sovereignty, allowed all of this to happen; and I know that this can be the best season of all three of our lives if we trust God in whatever season that we are in. 23:00 I want you to know that, despite what you may feel that you have done wrong or I have, I'm extremely proud / enormously proud to be your son. I also want you to know that for any pain, throughout the years, that I may have caused you, especially in my religious fervor when I first came to Christ, I apologize for that. As I process through the emotions of learning what it is to follow Christ, and trying to love you, and walking this delicate balance between grace and truth and this tension, I'm sorry if you ever got hurt. I'm sorry for the times that I didn't know how to handle my emotions correctly, because I am not a perfect person; but I know that Satan meant to disrupt and destroy our lives / God allowed it to happen to save lives. 24:00 I truly believe that through both of your lives—even though both of them were painful, even from childhood to now—I truly believe that God is using your lives and this story—which is not just mine / it's yours—to help people for such a time as this because people need help. With the suicide rate of gay teenagers rising, parents need to know how to love; teenagers need to know truth. You have become a clay pot that God is using and shining light on. Thank you for being you and loving me. I love you so much. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; A Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

Sex - Part 2

Deadly Traps for Teens

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2019 24:57

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Deadly Traps of Adolescence Day 4 of 10 Guest: Dennis and Barbara Rainey From the series: Sex Bob: Parents often wonder – when should we have "the talk" with out children? Dennis Rainey says it shouldn't just be "the talk," it ought to be "the talks." Dennis: I've really found that there are different segments that we go through with our children, whether boys or girls, that I've certainly taken our boys through. First of all, it's just the ABCs of sex – it's the birds and the bees, it's the biological facts about sex, and I honestly believe today that has to be in place by age 10. If you've not had that conversation with your child, the world is having it. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, July 12th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll talk today about the big talk parents need to have with their children – what, when, and how? And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition. We have been wandering through a field full of traps this week on the program because, as parents, we need to visit and learn where the traps are so that we can be about our job of leading our children through a field of traps that they're going to face as adolescents. Dennis: Yeah, I thought you were going to the field of dreams there – you know, adolescence is no field of dreams – it's a picture, I believe, of a parent walking through this trap-infested field with a teenager having a blindfold on and being barefoot, scooting along very closely behind the parent with his hands on the parent's shoulder, and the parent guiding him around all these traps because they're dangerous. Job, chapter 18, describes the scene, I think, beautifully – verse 8 – "His feet thrust down into a net, and he wanders into its mesh. A trap seizes hold by the heel; a snare holds him fast; a noose is hidden for him on the ground; a trap lies in his path." Now, listen to this summary – "Terrors startle him on every side and dog his every step. Calamity is hungry for him, disaster is ready for him when he falls." That's the picture of a teenager moving from childhood through those perilous adolescent years to adulthood and maturity, and it's our responsibility, as parents, to go ahead of our children and guide them through this process. Bob: Barbara, there are too many 10-year-olds, 12-year-olds, 15-year-olds, and 18-year-olds out wandering in that field with the blindfold on and nobody leading them at all. Barbara: Except the culture. Bob: Yes. Barbara: And the culture is doing a good job of it, and they're out there alone, or they're out there with a bunch of their buddies, a bunch of their friends, and they're wandering around, just looking for direction, for anybody to tell them what to do, and that's why they get sucked into these traps all the time. Bob: Where are Mom and Dad? Barbara: Mom and Dad have usually abdicated. They've just pulled back, and they've either decided they can't handle this kid, or they've decided this is too much, and he's just going to do what he's going to do, anyway, and I'm just not going to worry about it. Bob: Dennis, that's part of the reason you and Barbara sat down to spend the hours writing this book to call Mom and Dad back to their post. Dennis: I think a lot of parents are losing heart in this culture. This is not an easy time to raise a child, and especially not an easy time to raise a teenager. The culture doesn't reinforce our standards, if we have standards. In fact, the culture is attacking those parents who have standards. And so, frankly, this is a time to call parents to be courageous, and that's what we attempted to do in this book – kind of put our arms around a parent or a single parent and say, "You know what? You can do it with the Scriptures and the power of the Holy Spirit with God as the builder of your home, you know what? You can raise a child to make it through this trap-infested field, and he can make it to maturity and not be maimed or injured for life as a result." Bob: Yesterday on the broadcast we talked about the trap of sexual immorality, and you encouraged us, as parents, to raise the standard higher than the current cultural standard. Even within the Christian community, we've set the bar too low, as you see it. Dennis: That's right. I've got a letter here that was passed on to me by a grandmother who worked in our ministry here for a number of years. Her name is Pat Orten [sp], and Pat is a dear person, but she wrote about how her mother helped draw lines and boundaries around her life. Now, you can tell by the sound of this letter that this is from another era, but I don't think all of what's represented here is a bad era at all. I think we need to return to some of the standards represented in this note that she slipped me. She writes – "I remember my mom drawing the line for me when I began to date. She instructed me about how a guy should and should not touch me with his hands. For example, she said to never let a guy place his hand on my knee. I see so many dating couples with their hands on each other's knee or with his hand in her back pocket of her jeans, and I always remember my mother's words. Because that line was drawn, my husband and I remained pure in our four-year dating relationship before we were married. I can still recall more than 40 years ago the pleasure we both experienced when my husband put his hand on my knee as we drove off on our honeymoon. He laughed and said he'd been waiting for four years to do that." I love it. Barbara: I do, too. Dennis: I really do love that. Barbara: I do, too. Dennis: She concludes her note by saying, "I'm thankful to my mom for helping me draw the line for purity." Now, you know, that sounds so ancient, so fossilized, but it's … Barbara: … so healthy. Dennis: It's so pure, so good, there's something about the breeze that letter creates in our soul to say would be that our children could say on their honeymoon – "I've been waiting for years to do that." Wouldn't that be a tremendous privilege to deliver your child to their wedding altar with that purity, that innocence intact? Well, I think that's what a parent's assignment is as we raise teenagers today. Bob: Barbara, we talked yesterday on the broadcast about helping our children understand the warnings from scripture about issues of sexual immorality, but the truth is the Bible says a lot of things that are very positive about sexual relationships. It just confines them to marriage. We've got to be teaching our kids the good things the Bible says as well as the warnings, right? Barbara: I agree, Bob, and I think we need to help our kids see the good things that God designed for a man and a woman in marriage, and I think we need to help them understand that sex is for intimacy in marriage, and that God created it for that, and He created it for pleasure, and it's good, and it's good experienced in marriage, and He intended for us, as male and female, to enjoy that gift that He gave us in marriage. And He also made it real clear that anything outside of marriage – that was a sin. So I think as we paint a picture for our kids of how marriage is good, and it's healthy, and it's wholesome, and sex within marriage is a wonderful thing, it's a wonderful gift, we can build some expectancy and some hope for our kids so that they can have something to look forward to, they can understand what the goal is, they've got a model lived before them between Mom and Dad, and they know that's something that they're going to want someday, and they'll have more of a motivation to wait, more of a motivation to save themselves, because they understand the plan and what God has for them. Bob: You know, it feels a little difficult as a parent, because it's almost like telling your kids – you know this particular flavor of ice cream – it's really, really good, but you can't have any now, and you can't have any for a long time but, boy, it's really good when you have some. It's almost like you're taunting them. You feel almost cruel. Dennis: Well, but that's the mystery of sex. In our sixth grade Sunday school class, one of the ways we sought to teach this was I would walk up to the front of the class with a paper sack and an electrical cord running out of the paper sack to the wall, and I would ask the children – how many of you believe me when I tell you there's something dangerous inside this paper sack? And they would hold up their hands, and I'd say, "Now, everybody who held up their hands, stand up" – and there would always be one boy who did not believe me, and who would be seated at that point. So I would invite him to come up, and I'd say, "Now let me understand this correctly. You didn't believe me when I told you that there was something dangerous in this sack, is that right?" And he's beginning to look at me a bit suspiciously at that point, being 11 or 12 years of age, and I said, "Okay, you didn't believe me. I want you to stick your hand in the sack," and I whispered in his ear, "Young man, as you stick your hand into the paper sack, go in very slowly, because what's in there really is dangerous." And at that point he doesn't want to stick his hand in, but his hand goes in, even if I force it in, and it comes out like a bolt of lightning, because he has touched something very hot, and what I have inside the sack is a curling iron that has been sufficiently heated up – and I want our listeners to know, lest they're going to file a lawsuit on behalf of that 11- or 12-year-old, I've never scarred any kids or hurt them or anything, so don't worry about those kids, but I make the point of that young man saying he was given a chance to believe me when I told him that it was dangerous, but he didn't believe me, and so he stuck his hand in, and he learned, through experience, that he should have trusted my word. I believe God wants us to wait until marriage to experience this area called sex, and he wants us to train our children to do the very same thing in helping them trust that God's Word is true, that His warnings are healthy, that His encouragements about the healthy side of sex are positive, and to not doubt that word and not go against that word, because if they do they're liable to get burned. Bob: Barbara, help us practically here – as a mom, what did you do with your girls as they were going through pre-adolescence, right before they headed into the teenage years to help shape their convictions in these areas? Barbara: Well, with all of our girls, I took them away on a little weekend retreat, or even a one-night retreat and took some tapes and some books and some different things and just made it a real special getaway for Mom and daughter, and we'd go stay at a nice hotel or a little bed and breakfast or something that was fun and out of the ordinary, and we would listen to these tapes and read selected portions out of a book and begin to talk about the whole process of them growing up and becoming a woman and what that meant and all the changes that they would go through physically. And then we would also talk about how they were going to be changing emotionally, how they would change in their perception of boys and right now they thought, you know – and usually it was around their sixth grade year that I would do this, and they would think that boys were pretty weird and not too cool to be around, so you kind of have to convince them that this really is going to happen. But just talk to them about their interest is going to change and how the boys are going to become interested in them and what boys are going to be thinking and what they're going to be thinking in response to that and just begin to head off, by some initial preparation, some teaching that's going to help them understand the changes that they're getting ready to go through. Bob: In your book you included a list of what materials you used in those weekend getaways and, at the end of the broadcast, I'm going to let our listeners know how they can get a copy of the book if they want to. Dennis, how about you and the boys? Did you have a similar kind of weekend experience? Dennis: Well, I did, but I really found that there are different segments that we go through with our children, whether they be boys or girls, that I've certainly taken our boys through. First of all, it's just the ABCs of sex – it's the birds and the bees, it's the biological facts about sex, and I honestly believe today that has to be in place by age 10. If you've not had that conversation with your child, the world is having it. Somehow, some way, peers, music, movies, TV, magazines, Internet – all the different forms of media are coming at your kids left and right, and they are hearing some form about sex that's probably degrading, perverted, and certainly not God's way. But that really leads to an opportunity that – it probably is around ages 10 to 12, and there's a whole bunch of issues that we've talked about with our sons – puberty, what that means and what's about to happen to their body; we talk about dating and what's involved in that; about relationships and even some of the principles for dating and some of the boundaries for dating. Later on in adolescence you double back and you have some additional conversations, Bob, around all of these issues plus the things that begin to pile up about them – dancing, music, saying no to an aggressive girl who is physically coming on to you; some higher callings about how a young man is to relate to the opposite sex – manners, all those issues about touching, kissing, petting, and intercourse. These are all healthy discussions that a father and a son ought to be working through and ought to have almost a grocery list, a checklist, that he's checking them off and having these discussions with his sons because these young men need to hear it first and need to hear it second and third and fourth from their fathers – from a Christian perspective. Bob: One of the things about the checklist that we have to keep in mind is even after we check it off, all that means is that we've covered it once. That doesn't mean it's done, does it? Dennis: That's right, but that's been one of the most difficult things about teenagers, Bob, especially if you've got more than one. You can begin to assume they got it, and that's very dangerous, whether it be with a son or with a daughter. You need to assume, more than likely, they didn't get it. Don't nag them, don't harp on them, don't stay on their case, but double back and kind of see if they're hearing and beginning to develop their own convictions. Bob: There are a lot of dads who kind of wipe their brow and go, "Whew, that's over," after they've had a talk with a child, and it's not over until you've revisited the subject a half a dozen more times throughout the teenage years. Dennis: That's exactly right. Bob: Barbara, how about you and the boys? Have you felt a need, as a mom, to reinforce any particular issues with your sons? Barbara: Well, I've just been focused on trying to reinforce what they've talked about with Dad, but it's been interesting – there have been a couple of occasions with our boys, when they were teenagers, when they would go to a youth group retreat or some other kind of conference, and they would hear a talk about dating or sex or some of those issues, and we had some very interesting discussions when they would come back. I remember one – it was Ashley, Benjamin, Samuel, and I – we were all sitting in the bedroom, and they were all three telling me what they'd learned at this conference about sex and dating, and we just had this great interaction right there on the spot, talking about what they'd learned, and I asked them what they thought about it and do you feel like that's right – is that something you're going to adopt, is that something you want to choose for your own or do you think maybe you want to have a different standard? And we just interacted about all that. So there will be those opportunities for Moms to validate what Dad is teaching and to say, "You know, I really am proud of the way you're becoming a young man, and you're taking initiative, and you're becoming – you're growing up," and she can do a lot of that kind of validating and appreciating and reinforcing what Dad's been saying. Bob: Dennis, we've talked about moms and their daughters, dads and their sons, moms and their sons – I know you've had conversations with your daughters. In fact, there was one conversation you had specifically with one of your daughters where you used a water balloon as a way to illustrate what you were talking about? Dennis: Yeah, Rebecca, who is 17 right now, has a point of contention with me, because she wants a royalty off this idea. She thinks she invented this, but that's not how I remember the conversation. We were sitting out in a grocery store parking lot waiting for some friends to pick her up for a bunking party, as I recall, and there was a water balloon left over from a big water balloon fight we'd had the weekend before between the parents – us – Mom and Dad – and the other teams. And the water balloon was sitting there, and it was one of the moments where we started talking about how far are you going to go and how much of your innocence are you going to keep and preserve to be able to give to your husband on your wedding night. And I pulled that water balloon out, and I held it up, and I said, "Rebecca, it's like this water balloon contains all of your innocence. It's just a limited amount, only so much, and if you give that water balloon to a young man, and he takes a pen, and he says, "You know, I just want a little kiss. Well, at that point, Rebecca, you give away just a little bit and he just takes the pin and just ever so slightly puts a little bitty hole in the balloon and out comes a little drop of water." I said, "I'm not saying that's wrong for him to kiss you at that point, but you just given away your first kiss at that point. And then you decide to maybe kiss a little longer and a little deeper, and the young man doesn't just poke one hole, he pokes several holes in there and now instead of just a drop of water coming out, there are several drops coming out, and maybe it begins to squirt out of the balloon. And I didn't have a pin in the car there, Bob, so I couldn't illustrate this, but she was catching on. And I said, "What could possibly happen now is that you give your innocence away to enough people so that when you arrive at your marriage bed the balloon would be empty. There would be nothing to give to your husband," and I said, "How would that make you feel?" She said, "Really sad." And I said, "Yeah," and I said, "Your innocence needs to be preserved and protected by you and by us, and that's what your mom and I are doing as we walk through some very dangerous paths, and we help you as you relate to the opposite sex." And, you know, that illustration – I've gone back to that and so has Barbara with Rebecca on numerous occasions, to talk to her about standing strong and about preserving that which God has entrusted to her. And the reason I like that illustration is because, as parents, I think we're entrusted, in a sense, with protecting that water balloon. We've got to go the extra mile to protect and preserve and be the guardians and not just give it away or not just let them go and just let them go their own way but be courageous and step into a child who maybe is a teen today, and maybe you've lost control, and it's going to be harder to reel them back in but, you know what? You've got to do it. You've got to do it, because if you don't they could ruin their lives. And, Bob, I just want to encourage that parent today who is listening – no matter how many mistakes you've made in the past – and we've made many. It may sound like from time to time on this broadcast because we share some of these things that we've done it all right. We have not done it all right. We have made assumptions that our kids have been getting these points, and they haven't been getting them, and they've missed the point. And we've had to backtrack and go back and reteach, and we've had to give our kids grace when they've failed but you know what? I would rather have fought the fight and have been in there with our children helping to preserve and guard and protect than to back out and just let them go. That isn't right. God has given us these children, and we are to be their parents all the way through adolescence as they emerge into adulthood. Bob: You know, that illustration you used, of the water balloon, is one of a bunch of illustrations that you provide in the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," and those word pictures do stick with our children. When you do more than just talk with them, when you can use a demonstration or a word picture like that, it can make a big difference and, again, it sticks with our sons and our daughters and, in fact, that particular illustration is one that we've incorporated into the resource Passport to Purity, which a lot of FamilyLife Today listeners have used with their preteens, taking them off for a weekend where they can go through the Passport to Purity material and have their sons and daughters ready to face peer pressure and dating and sex and some of these deadly traps we're talking about this week on our program. You can get more information about Passport to Purity or about the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," by going to our website, FamilyLife.com, and clicking the red button you see there that says "Go." That will take you to an area of the site where, again, there is more information about these resources and other resources. Elizabeth Elliot's books, "Passion and Purity," and "Quest for Love." Books and audio resources that we've selected to try to equip you, as parents, to face this issue and to help guide your children through the dangerous waters of adolescence and get them on the other side with their purity intact. Again, our website is FamilyLife.com, click the red button that says "Go" in the middle of the screen. That will take you to the area of the site where there is more information on what's available or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY, mention that you were listening to FamilyLife Today and you heard us talking about different resources, and someone on our team can answer any questions you have about those resources, or place an order for you, if you'd like. The number, again, is 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. And when you do get in touch with us, it's possible that someone on our team will ask if you'd like to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation. We are listener-supported, and we hear from families in many of the cities where FamilyLife Today is heard. They call and say, "We appreciate the program, and we want to help keep it on the air," and they make a donation from time to time either on the website or over the phone. We appreciate those of you who have done that in the past. We depend on those donations to continue this program not only in this city but in other cities where FamilyLife Today is heard. This month, if you can help with a donation of any amount, we want to send you a thank you give. It's the new book by Dennis Rainey called "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date," and it provides for a dad or for a mom guidelines you can follow as you begin to engage young men who might be interested in taking your daughter out on a date. We talk about the kind of conversation you ought to have with those young men before you say yes to that kind of social engagement with your daughter. We'd be happy to send you a copy of this book as a way of saying thanks for your financial support when you make a donation this month. If you're donating online, as you fill out the donation form, if you'd like a copy of the book, just type the word "date" into the keycode box, and we'll know to send you one. Or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY and make your donation over the phone just mention that you'd like a copy of the book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date," and, again, we're happy to send it out to you, and we appreciate your financial support for this ministry. Well, tomorrow we're going to talk about that subject of dating – when is that appropriate, what kind of boundaries should parents place around that kind of social engagement between a young man and a young woman in the teen years? We'll talk all about that tomorrow, and I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com

White Cane Coffee: Providing Great Coﬀee to our Customers and Providing Sustaining Jobs for People with Disabilities – A Job Insights Spotlight

Blind Abilities

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 10, 2019 25:01

FUll Transcript Below Show Summary: Serina Gilbert is always coming across great stories and this one from Erin and Bob at White Cane Coffee is as good as it gets. Taking a Bad Day and transferring that into the launching of a new company, Erin and Bob, a daughter and son team, tell us why they wanted to start White Cane Coffee and how they want to impact others with the opportunity through the affiliate program coming soon. You can check out the line of White Cane Coffee on the web at www.WhiteCaneCoffee.comand find the coffee that best suits you. Here is an overview of White Cane Coffee taken from the web: Hi, I’m Erin from White Cane Coﬀee. I, with the help of my parents, started this company to provide great coﬀee to our customers and provide self sustaining jobs for people with disabilities. We have a variety of coﬀee roasts for your enjoyment. Colombian Supremo is sweet, smooth and bold. We also have a Colombian Supremo Decaf which gives you all the same great ﬂavor without all the caﬀeine. But, if you want that caﬀeine boost, try our High Octane. Our Donut Shop blend gives you that fruity, clean taste you expect to ﬁnd in your neighborhood pastry shop. If you like a bold, earthy cup of joe, try our Dark Roast, it is roasted from 100% Indonesian Sumatra beans. French Roast gives you that rich, robust ﬂavor you may crave. Or if you prefer a Breakfast Blend, ours will give you that tangy, fruity ﬂavor you will love. All of our beans are organic and micro-roasted, using hot air to give you the very best quality and ﬂavor. There is nothing worse than waking up in the morning and discovering you are out of coﬀee. (I shudder at the mere thought of it). So, that is why we oﬀer a subscription service so you can receive your favorite White Cane Coﬀee right on your door step every month. If you make your subscription for a full year, we will cover your shipping. You will also notice that, other than our sample box, (which I highly recommend so you ﬁnd the right blend for you), our coﬀee arrives in 1 pound and 2 pound packages. You will actually get what you expect you are paying for. Now a bit about White Cane Coﬀee, and why we standout. The reason I wanted to start White Cane Coﬀee is because, number one, “Who doesn’t love coﬀee.”. But most importantly, my brothers and I are all on the Autism Spectrum and I am also blind. We have found that ﬁnding jobs extremely diﬃcult. In our experience, employers didn’t want to provide full time or a living wages to handicapped individuals. Or because of bullying on the job site staying at some jobs unbearable. So, at 22, I started to ask, “When you have the right people around you, the question stops being, What can I do? but What’s stopping me”. So here we are. Our goal is to provide a welcoming environment to all people and provide jobs to the handicapped community at a living wage. Most of all, we want to provide you with a Great cup of coffee! Check out this episode of Job Insights and send us your feedback and topic suggestions by email. Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. Contact: Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Full Transcript Jeff Thompson: I saw one on there that was called the high octane. Bob: Yeah, that one's double the caffeine, double have fun. Serena Gilbert: Do not ship that one to Jeff. Jeff Thompson: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment. Serena Gilbert: I saw a post from White Cane Coffee, and I was intrigued because the name, I think it's like a super awesome name for a company. Jeff Thompson: Learn about resources for training, education and employment opportunities. Erin: I swear, the excitement for me is just constant, because again, I'm just branching out on new things, I'm meeting with people in the community, I'm on podcast now. There's always new things that we're doing, so one part of it may not be as flashy or exciting as it was, but there's a new part that's brand sparkling new and just like, yeah. Jeff Thompson: You will hear from people seeking careers, employment from professionals in the educational field, teachers, and innovators in this ever changing world of technology. Speaker 5: That's an easy one to remember, because everyone knows the white game, everyone loves coffee and.com there you go. Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities and download our free Blind Abilities App from the APP store, that's two words, blind abilities. Now please welcome Serena Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights. Erin: If they do find work, it's for absolutely a pittance amount of money, so we're just like, let's employ them and pay them fairly. Jeff Thompson: Welcome to the Job Insights. I'm Jeff Thompson and with me is Serena Gilbert. How are you doing Serena? Serena Gilbert: I am doing absolutely fantastic, Jeff, how are you? Jeff Thompson: I'm doing good. You came across a great company on Facebook and invited them on. Tell us a little bit about it. Serena Gilbert: I was scrolling through Facebook like I do for, I don't even know how many hours a day at this point, and I saw a post from White Cane Coffee and I was intrigued because, well of course, first the name, I think it's like a super awesome name for a company, and secondly, what their mission was and how they started a company to be able to have nice jobs for individuals with disabilities to be able to be a little bit more self-sustaining. I really, really liked that idea. Jeff Thompson: Entrepreneurship right there. I like it. Serena Gilbert: Of course. Jeff Thompson: Well we got them here in the studio. Let's welcome. Erin and Bob from White Cane Coffee. How are you guys doing? Erin: We're doing well. Bob: Doing wonderful, glad to be here. Jeff Thompson: Well, thank you for taking the time, coming on to Job Insights. It's exciting, it's exciting. I read Erin's article on Facebook and yeah, I really liked it. Bang, here we are. Let's start it out by what got you started with White Cane Coffee? Erin: Well, honestly it started with me having a bad day, and so just it's hard when you're disabled and trying to find a job and just, it's frustrating. When I'm frustrated like that, me and my dad will play games, like we'll create [inaudible] or in this case we were just like, if you had x amount of money, what would you do to grow it? And so one day we started with a coffee company and then we just kept talking about this coffee company just like, well, what would you do with this, or what would you do with that? It's just like, well, why not hire people with disabilities for one thing, and just it kept growing until eventually were just like, Oh, we're actually doing this, aren't we? Bob: Yeah. That was about six months ago, and so then it was just doing research, figuring out exactly what it was going to take to create this coffee company. And so that meant we needed an accountant, we needed an attorney, we needed to figure out how we were going to get our coffee roasted, packaging, getting the shipping, getting the website up. It became a creature unto itself, but the best part was we had fun doing it and right now, I mean, the response we're getting, even from our local community, they love our coffee. We did a couple of hundred sample bags or whatever, and we just gave them out to everyone, and everyone said, "Oh isn't that [inaudible]." Bob: And then they called back and said, "You know, that was really good coffee. I need more." Bob: Now every time we turn around, somebody's calling us up saying, "We need more." That's our whole thing is getting the word out, letting people know we have great coffee. Serena Gilbert: That's fantastic, Bob, and I know you have kind of a unique business model. Do you want to share with us some of the services that customers can receive from your coffee business? Bob: The key is, they can go online at whitecanecoffee.com, and one of the first things that shows up, the first item there is a sample box because people always say, what is your best coffee? Well, they're all great, so it all depends on the customer. We suggest to them, order up the sample box, try them all, find the one that fits your likes, then order whether it's subscription or it's a [inaudible], whatever the case may be, but we want them to find the one they like the best. That's really our model, that in a nutshell is our coffee is roasted fresh for them. Most coffees that you get, say at a grocery store and some of the big names that I'm not going to mention but we all know who they are, those sit in a warehouse for up to a year before they even get to the store. We like our coffee what, how old Erin? Erin: About a week fresh, so from the time we package that to the point where it gets to your door, it's only about a week old, so you know you're going to get the freshest cup of coffee that you are able to have. Jeff Thompson: I couldn't help it but I saw one on there that was called high octane. Bob: Yeah, that one's double the caffeine, double the fun. Serena Gilbert: Do not ship that one too Jeff, Oh my goodness. Bob: Don't ship that one. That one is actually very popular, especially the people work like third shifts or you know- Erin: The mid night hour [inaudible]. Bob: They're the ones who order it and they go, the flavor's great [inaudible] and we're awake. And I said, well that's pretty much what it does. Erin: [inaudible] through testing. Bob: Yeah, that one was hard. Jeff Thompson: You mentioned earlier you had a tough three weeks of testing coffee and that must've been fun, because none of these go out without you guys knowing what exactly you're selling. Erin: Exactly. Bob: Exactly, that's I mean each time ... We roaster whatever, we sample it. It doesn't just like oh it's good enough. The good enough is never good enough. The product has to be right every time it goes out, because that's our reputation that's on the line here. We're not some huge mega corporation where you get a bad pot of coffee and lose a customer they go, eh. With us, that doesn't work that way. Every customer needs to be happy. Jeff Thompson: And they can find this at whitecanecoffee.com. Bob: Correct. Erin: Yup. Jeff Thompson: That's an easy one to remember, because knows the White Cane, everyone loves coffee and .com, there you go. Bob: That was even our reasoning of naming the company and with our logo, with the young girl, with the white cane, we want people to know exactly who we are, when they see our logo, they know. Erin: It was [inaudible] a blind disabled person or blind disabled people, people and just disabled people, and people, people. Jeff Thompson: People, people. I like it. Bob: But that was it. We want people to know exactly who we are and what we're about, the transparency, I guess is the new buzzword that everybody uses, but that is important. They need to know who we are. When they go on our Facebook page or whatever, and even once the about page is done finally on the website, there's a picture of Erin right there. She is the face of our company, this is her baby. There's no big corporate board room back here where everybody's hanging out. Jeff Thompson: Yeah. Erin: Home grown. Jeff Thompson: It's amazing the way you can start by just having a bad day, right Erin? Erin: I know. Bob: Isn't that how all the great companies have started though, is somebody sitting around saying there's a problem and then eventually somebody says, Hey, I think we can fix it. Jeff Thompson: Solution based, there you go. Serena Gilbert: Well, I understand that you guys employ a few individuals that also have disabilities. Is that correct? Erin: Yes. Bob: Yes. Serena Gilbert: Tell us a little bit about what made you design your business in that way? Erin: Well, if I was having trouble finding a job for my disability, and there is a huge population in our town of disabled people on who just cannot find work, or if they do find work, it's for absolutely a pittance amount of money, so we're just like, let's employ them and pay them fairly. Jeff Thompson: I like that. Bob: We're all about living wage. People sit in and say, well, like I said, you know, if you have a sheltered workshop, there's no bottom to how much they can pay their employees. Like ours, we have one here nearby and they pay about a dollar, dollar 10 an hour is what they pay their employees. You can't live on that. And second of all, with social security at 750 a month, I think it is, you can't live on that. I mean, you can't pay rent, you can't pay utilities, you can't do anything. They're all into survival mode. Well, there's more to life than just survival mode. We want people to have a decent wage, so at the end of the week they can pay all their bills and you know what, there's still some money left-over to do what they want to do and have some fun. Jeff Thompson: And buy some coffee. Bob: Buy more. Jeff Thompson: There you go. Serena Gilbert: Very smart business model there. Bob: That's what it really was all about. Not only have we found work for Erin and her brothers now, but we're finding work for people who are just like her because that's what you're supposed to do. Jeff Thompson: Erin, on your picture on Facebook, you do have a cane here wearing sunglasses, so you are blind? Erin: Correct. I only have 5% of my vision left. Jeff Thompson: When did that start? Erin: I started to lose my vision when I was about 15. Jeff Thompson: Did it affect you in how you did your education at school? Erin: Yes actually. I had to, with assistance, essence basically people reading me the questions on the test. I graduated high school at 15. Serena Gilbert: Look at that, wow. That's not an easy accomplishment. That's awesome, Erin. Erin: Thank you. Serena Gilbert: Yeah, I could not imagine. Jeff Thompson: That's awesome for anybody. Serena Gilbert: Yeah, it's a big deal. Jeff Thompson: Wow. Bob: Well, Erin was in the gifted program when she was in school, and so it wasn't much of a challenge for the school just to allow her basically to test out. It was interesting and it's like, okay, here's all the subjects you can pass everything, you can graduate and she did. Erin: Through the first try and they're just like, yeah, okay, that's fair. Bob: She had her diploma and we moved on. Jeff Thompson: There you go. You might want to give that college thing a try, that might be a piece of cake too. Bob: Someday. Jeff Thompson: There you go. Bob: But right now, like I said, we're challenged in what we're doing and I think right now as this company is growing here, this is going to keep her busy for many, many years to come. Jeff Thompson: That's great. Erin: We're hoping the best for this. Jeff Thompson: It's nice to have a challenge, and to challenge yourself and that's what we all kind of look for, is to accept the challenges and it keeps you waking up in the morning with a good cup of coffee, that helps too, right Serena? Serena Gilbert: Of course. Now if you guys start shipping out hot chocolate I'm in, because I'm not much of a coffee drinker because it makes me completely stay up for days. But some hot chocolate, I'll be totally about it. Erin: [inaudible] considered it yet, but maybe in the distant future, we're thinking maybe hot chocolate or teas or something like that, but for right now we're strictly coffee. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't know she wasn't a coffee drinker. I would've got someone else to come on the podcast, sorry Bob. Serena Gilbert: Oh Jeff. Bob: On of the other things we are trying to do here is, hopefully within the next week is we are setting up affiliate programs so that other people who are blind and disabled all across the country can also be a part of this company, because we would love to see White Cane Coffee basically in every town, business, home across this nation. I want people, no matter where they go, they're going to see White Cane Coffee on Facebook, on Instagram, Twitter. That's the name of this game here. We have a great product, and we want to be able to share that with everyone in the United States, and we also want people to be able to earn a living as affiliates across the country, because let's face it, people like Erin and you guys or whatever all over, and so that the name of the game is let's create as many jobs as we can. Bob: People who will be able to sign up as affiliates on the website and what will happen is, they'll be given basically their own code that'll go on the end of whitecanecoffee.com, it'll be like, let's say in Jeff's case it might be whitecanecoffee.com/Jeff. Now Jeff's going to sit there and say, hey, all my friends, guess what? White Cane Coffee, great stuff, give it a shot. Here's their email address, and it'll be that one there. Any sales that those make, Jeff would then get a commission on. Does that make sense? Serena Gilbert: Yeah. I think that's awesome that you're building that, because a lot of the big company, like obviously Amazon, they have an affiliate program, target all kinds of places. I think it's great that you're seizing that opportunity to allow some of our audience to be able to have some fairly passive income coming in with being able to share their affiliate links and things like that. That's very unique to small businesses and I like that. Bob: Yeah, because we all have our own networks. I have my friends who are on Facebook and on Twitter and everything like that. You have your friends and acquaintances and business contacts on yours and Jeff does. We all have these little things, that's why they call it the web. The more that web over it goes on each other, then guess what? That's when the company grows. Erin: This way, we're not just helping our towns own disabled group, we're helping other towns and the State disabled groups. Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's great. I like that idea. It gives me something, you know, I never wanted to do an Avon, Mary Kay or stuff like that, Tupperware. Now I can do White Cane Coffee. Serena Gilbert: But just this morning, Jeff, you were giving me some makeup tips, so I don't know. Bob: That's one of the things that people always, you know, because we've talked to a few people on the go, well, what's it going to cost us? It doesn't cost you anything. I mean that's the whole key. We'd like you to try our coffee, but if you don't drink coffee or whatever, that doesn't stop you from- Erin: Getting the word out there. Bob: And being involved. Jeff Thompson: Awesome. I like it. Serena Gilbert: I for one, when you guys get that up and running, please send us a link or message in that group chat that we have going, because I will definitely spread the word for you guys. I think that's awesome what you're doing. Bob: Absolutely. We'll make sure you guys get the invite to it and that, and that's the goal, we want as many people as we can. If 10,000 people sign up as affiliates, fantastic. Because that's 10,000 people who are going to try to do something and that's what we want to see. Jeff Thompson: I like it. Let's check it out, whitecanecofee.com, you go there, it says buy coffee. I clicked on buy coffee and I had eight choices. The first one was the package box and for $20, no tax, no shipping, it's delivered to your door. You can sample all the flavors, and the flavors come in, Colombian Supremo, Colombian Supremo Decaf, Breakfast Blend, Dark Roast, Doughnut Shop, French Roast, and my future favorite, High Octane. You have a choice of 16 ounces or 32 ounces. 16 ounces is going to run you $14.99, and 32 ounces is discounted a little bit at $27.99 and you can opt for a one month, three month, six month up to a 12 month subscription. That means it will be delivered to your door once a month and you don't have to lift a finger. Jeff Thompson: An incentive to do the 12 months subscription is there's no shipping costs, thus allowing you to save $7 and 50 cents every month just by subscribing to a 12 month. That's quite a savings. At $14.99 I think it's very affordable. When you click on one of these flavors such as the High Octane, it'll take you to the page and they'll do a write up on what that flavor is all about, probably high octane I imagine, or the French Roast, or the Breakfast Blend. They'll all have a description there. Check out the about page, because that talk about Erin and her story and what the company's all about and it'll have some of this information then it just relayed to you. With that in mind, let's get back to the show. Jeff Thompson: Erin, I want to go back to something, do you use an iPhone? Erin: I use an iPad, it seems to work best for me. Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's good. With voiceover. Erin: Oh my gosh, yes. Jeff Thompson: There you go. Erin: So much voiceover. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, we're all about tech and we love our voiceover stuff with the iPhones. Not knocking any of the android stuff, it's coming along. Erin: Yeah, but Apple just seems to have, it has everything that you need for that. Jeff Thompson: Yep, they're doing good, and so are you guys whitecanecoffee.com, everyone go check it out, go sign up, get the sample pack, you can figure it out which one you like best and then place your orders. It comes once a month, right to your doorstep, and if you order annually, they knock off the price of shipping so you can save a little money there. Erin, Bob, I want to thank you for taking the time to coming onto Job Insights and sharing with us your, well Erin's bad day innovation, her entrepreneurship and starting this company. Serena, do you have anything else you want to ask? Serena Gilbert: Just do us a favor and tell our audience where they can find you on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. Erin: You can find us at White Cane Coffee on Facebook. You can find this on White Cane Coffee on Tumbler, weirdly enough. Bob: We're setting up our Twitter and Instagram pages because Instagram and Facebook kind of work hand in hand together now, so when you advertise on one, you advertise on both. It's always funny, we always say, we need to get some of the big influencers on Instagram or something of that nature, one of the Kardashians. [inaudible] say, hey White Cane Coffee, and things would go insane at that point, but no, the goal is we're getting the word out and we're really happy that you guys contacted us and wanted to hear what we're doing. Serena Gilbert: We absolutely love sharing what individuals in our community are doing, especially when it comes to employment and being able to live a little bit more independently, so we were happy to have you on. Erin: We were absolutely ecstatic to be on. Serena Gilbert: Do you guys have any questions or any additional information that you'd like to share? Bob: We look forward to seeing your podcast, because you're on YouTube, is that correct? Jeff Thompson: We're on YouTube, we're on Apple, you can download the Blind Abilities App right to your iPad and iPhone, any device like that. Pod Catchers just search for Blind Abilities, that's two words, Blind Abilities. Serena Gilbert: He's so trained over there. Oh my goodness. Bob: Sounds great, we look forward to that. Keep in touch with us, we like talking to people who are in the community, kind of how we find out what's going on. We hope that these conversations will go on for long time in the future. Serena Gilbert: Of course. Bob: It's funny, since we went on Facebook and started doing this, you guys just kind of caught our attention. It's like okay let's do this and- Erin: Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Bob: Absolutely. Serena Gilbert: Next step is shark tank, right? Bob: Oh God no. No, never Shark Tank. Venture capitalists are about making money, we're about making a difference and so that would probably never happen. Jeff Thompson: I like that line. Put it on my tee shirt, or my coffee cup. There you go. Serena Gilbert: I will definitely be checking out your guys' website because I do have coffee drinkers in my family, so I might even show it to my husband, because we have a Keurig, but we have the little thing where you can put the coffee beans or in it and trick it. Jeff Thompson: Well, Serena, if you check out the website, they do have a coffee that has low caffeine. Serena Gilbert: Even for you, that would be too much caffeine. Bob: I'll tell you, if your husband likes that robust flavor, get the Colombian. If you like a coffee that's real smooth, you don't need milk or anything, look at the Dark Roast, it is so smooth. There's no bitterness to it. Serena Gilbert: Oh Wow. Jeff Thompson: Well I think I'm going to try the sample because I've always liked looking for that coffee that it tastes good and it does everything that you want it to do in the flavor without having to add the cream or this or the other thing. I just want that perfect blend. Erin: Yeah. We hope you like it. Bob: Yeah, get online after you're done with us, just go right to White Cane Coffee, you order tonight, they'll be out in the mail in the morning. Serena Gilbert: Oh Wow. That's fast. Jeff Thompson: There we go. The UPS or FedEx, one of those businesses know where you live, right? Bob: Absolutely. They're here up quite a bit, picking up boxes. Jeff Thompson: That's cool. Bob: They're happy, it keeps them working I guess. Serena Gilbert: Exactly. Erin: [inaudible] when we first started, they were so confused. Bob: They really were, but now they're just kind of used to it, they bring the truck up and get the boxes. Jeff Thompson: Is the excitement gone? I mean, usually if the UPS truck pulls up in front of my place, I'm like, oh. Serena Gilbert: What did I order? Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I'm like rubbing my hands together. Erin: I swear, the excitement for me is just constant because again, I'm branching out on new things, I'm meeting with people in the community, I'm on podcast now. There's always new things that we're doing in the company to sort of get the word out, so yeah, it's just like, okay, so one part of it may not be as flashy or exciting as it was, but there's a new part that's brand sparkling new and just like yeah. Bob: Like in November, the Pennsylvania National Federation for the Blind has their convention in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Well now they're talking about having Erin come and speak at the convention. Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's great. Serena Gilbert: That's huge. That's awesome. Bob: I wish she can make a difference. We really are looking forward to this, it's amazing. Everyone in this country drinks coffee, 90% of the people truly do have coffee first thing in the morning, that's what starts their day. Jeff Thompson: Take notes Serena. Erin: It's something that's so ingrained into our society, that coffee [inaudible] to help people with disabilities was just a no brainer. How many times have you heard in cartoons like, don't talk to me before I've had my coffee. I mean, when I was a little kid, on Christmas, we weren't allowed to open our presents until mum and dad had their coffee. I learned how to make coffee at age eight. Bob: No coffee, no presents. Erin: Just like brothers have already sorted out the gifts, specialized mugs in each hand they come downstairs, here you go, let's open presents. Jeff Thompson: There you go, and now you can do it with White Cane Coffee. Serena Gilbert: Exactly. Bob: Exactly. It's fun for everyone. I like seeing Erin excited. I like seeing her brother's excited. I like seeing the other workers excited because when they come to work, they're excited to be useful and to have a purpose. You know, that when they're here that they're welcome here, and we adapt to their needs instead of like a lot of jobs you have to adapt to the company. We kind of do it the other way around, we adapt to each person individually. What are their needs, what's going to make their experience here working better for them because we found if they're happy, they're much more productive, and so it's a win-win on both sides Erin: This may sound odd, but with some people's disabilities they have such strengths and others are like one of our workers, even though they are very autistic, they are also very hyper focused and are perfectionists, so we know every label is going to be on perfectly just like, alright, you do you man. Jeff Thompson: There you go. I like that where you're creating opportunities and not limiting them but enhancing their opportunities by embracing their set of skills that they have. Bob: Oh exactly. Erin: Exactly, and once you have the right people around you, it really is, you can do almost anything with it. Jeff Thompson: I like what you're doing Erin. Bob: We don't sit around and say, oh, what can I do? It's more of what's stopping us from moving on, changing things and making things better for everyone involved, and coffee is that venue that is allowing us to do that. Jeff Thompson: Oh, I tip my cup to you guys. Serena Gilbert: We really appreciate your time. Bob: Absolutely. Jeff Thompson: Thanks Bob. Thanks Erin. Bob: You all have a good evening. Erin: It was great talking to you guys. Jeff Thompson: All right. [Music] [Transition noise] -When we share -What we see -Through each other's eyes... [Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence] ...We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective: Check us out on the web at www.BlindAbilities.com On Twitter @BlindAbilities Download our app from the App store: 'Blind Abilities'; that's two words. Or send us an e-mail at: info@blindabilities.com Thanks for listening.

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Understanding Palliative Care, Dr. Michael Fratkin Ep. 29

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 12, 2018 58:42

Dr. Michael Fratkin founded ResolutionCare to insure capable and soulful care of everyone, everywhere as they approach the completion of life. Learn how telehealth applications are bringing a greater quality of living and dying to those in need. Contact ResolutionCare website Transcript Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Please note there is some content that is explicit in this episode. Dr. Bob: Dr. Michael Fratkin is the President and Founder of Resolution Care. Dr. Fratkin is a father, a husband, a brother, a son, a physician, and a very dear friend of mine. Dr. Fratkin is dedicated to the well-being of his community and the community of all human beings. Since completing his training, he's made his home and built his family in rural Northern California. He's served his community as a primary care physician in the community health system, as a medical director of the local hospice, as a leader in the community hospital medical staff, and has been a transformative voice for improving the experience for people facing the end of life. At a time of great demographic and cultural change in our society, Dr. Fratkin has created Resolution Care to ensure capable and soulful care of everyone, everywhere, as they approach the completion of their life. Resolution Care is leveraging partnerships with existing healthcare providers and payers to provide telehealth services that bring a greater quality of life and greater quality of dying. The palliative care team at Resolution Care openly shares their expertise and mentorship so that people can receive the care they need, where they live, and on their own terms. In this podcast interview, Dr. Fratkin shares his passion and his intimate experience as a provider of care. He's innovative; he's creative, he's dedicated beyond what I've experienced with just about anybody else who I've communicated with about palliative care and end-of-life care. I think you're gonna find this podcast to be incredibly informative and really interesting. Okay, Michael, thank you so much for taking time out of your day. I know you've got lots of irons in the fire and lots of people vying for your attention. So I really appreciate having time to connect with you. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I always enjoy talking with you. We connect sporadically, not as much as either of us would probably want, but we have been pretty consistent in finding times to connect and catch each other up on what's happening with our lives and our different enterprises. And what's interesting is, after our conversations, I always think to myself, "I wish other people could have heard that. I wish other people had a chance to listen in and hear what we're developing, and sort of the passion that comes out in these conversations." They're so informative, for me, and I find it so inspiring to hear what you're doing and the service that you're providing and creating. So today we have that opportunity so that people are going to be able to listen in on our conversation. In the introduction, I shared a bit about what you're doing, who you are, but I'd like to have you just do a little synopsis of what Resolution Care is doing currently, where it started from its humble beginnings, and what your vision is for where this is heading. Dr. Fratkin: I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm a whole lot of stuff. But I'm also what's called a palliative care doctor. And your group of listeners probably know a little bit about what that is, but the way that I describe it for people is that there are really three central elements. That number one, we don't take care of any patients. We support people as they find their way through serious illness. We support people with a team; we support their families. Our team includes nurses, doctors, social workers, chaplains, nurse practitioners, community health workers, and all the people that they don't necessarily see, but that are just as important to creating a container for our care, the back office, and operational people. So the first principle is, is that we are a person-centered, not a patient-centered, but a person-centered initiative. And that those persons, the reason I distinguish it ... It's not just the patients or their families, but the people providing the care that are centrally important to everything that we do. And then we build out from there. So the first thing is, we're a person-centered organization, using a team to accompany people with serious illness as they navigate it, right? Dr. Bob: I love it. Dr. Fratkin: So the second thing that we do is that we're really damn good at managing symptoms. Our team has quite a bag of tricks around the treatment of pain and nausea, breathlessness, and various other physical manifestations of illness. And we know how to use that bag of tricks. So symptom control is the second thing. And the third thing is, we help people and their families to navigate what is a completely dysfunctional, fucked up if you don't mind me saying so- Dr. Bob: Let's call that like it is. Dr. Fratkin: Of fragments and silos and conflicting interests, and stakes held. We help people navigate, somewhat, through the complications of their illness, but more so, we recognize that people are trying to make their way through a human experience, not a medical one. And so, we help them navigate through that, bringing the personhood that we are to accompany them with the wisdom, skills, and shortcuts and strategies that we know about navigating. So it's person-centered around the people we care for and us as well. We matter, too. It's impeccable symptom control, and it's navigational assistance. And really tough times of life in a really complicated health care system. So Resolution Care does that. And we use some technology tricks, video conferencing, all of our care is based in the home. And that's that. But I think I also wanna tell you about how I got here and why. Dr. Bob: Please do. Dr. Fratkin: So I came to far Northern California, Humboldt County, in 1996 and joined a community clinic environment as the only internist in a five-clinic system. And my job was to take on all the patient V patients and all the complicated conditions that provided kind of complex case management approach for the heavy hitters, the outliers, the hot spotters. They're called lots of things now, but they were just languishing without the attention they needed when I showed up in town. And for six years, I took the hardest cases in the system, and helped with diagnosis and treatment planning, and burned out rather quickly, because I didn't have a team. I then sort of shifted my attention to my deep connection with hospice work and became a hospice medical director, where I did have a team. But I also had a very constraining box around me, a structure of hospice defined by the Medicare benefit that was limiting our ability to do what made sense, rather than meeting all of the regulation and compliance that continues to accumulate in the hospice model of care. And I burned out again. And then, I did some hospital work. When I started, I was seeing 9-12 people in a day, and I really enjoyed being at the point of the sphere where people were sick enough to be hospitalized and to attend to them both with good medicine, as well as a respect, and frankly, love in the face of what they're going through. And that was great until they started to push me to see 15 or 18. And now, it's 22 patients in a 12-hour shift. And I burned out again. And all the while, paying attention to the rising credibility and relevance of the palliative care movement. So I became first certificated in 2000, and board-certified a few years after that, in palliative care. In 2007, I worked with the hospital to launch a guided care consultation service in the hospital. And as soon as I got started doing that, there was almost immediately, four or five times as many people as I could care for. And I wasn't able to scare up the resources in the hospital to build out a team. So for a period of years, I wrote business plans, I went to committee meetings, I tried to advocate for greater resources to do this good work correctly, and failed to do that. So in 2014, I had had it. Exasperated, fatigued, burned out, I guess for the fourth or fifth time. God knows I can't keep track. I was looking for a job. I figured I couldn't stay here in this beautiful community, because I couldn't figure out how to get a sustainable job with a team that builds capacity over time. And so, I looked for work. And as you know, Bob, a palliative care doctor these days doesn't have to go too far to get too many interviews. I had three interviews in three weeks in the Bay area, and on the way to the Bay area. And they offered me three jobs, quickly, were better resourced, better compensated, more controlled work hours, but none of them were where I lived, where I made my home, where my kids were born in my house. I live on this five-acre piece of redwood forest. My kids were born there. My dogs and cats are buried in the yard. And I didn't wanna leave. So come around spring of 2014, I started to think about maybe there's a way to build capacity, build a team, and share what I know to others so that they could make that work for the people they're caring for. And so, the three ideas were video conferencing, Project Echo, which we could talk about later, it's a telementoring structure that allows a specialist to share information to primary care providers, et cetera. We can talk about that later if you want. And then the third thing was crowdfunding. So in November 1st or 2nd in 2014, we launched an Indiegogo campaign and based on all of my relationships in the community and people's trust in my work, we were able to raise $140,000 in a little over a month. And in January 2015, myself and one other person walked into a donated office space and turned on the lights. Dr. Bob: What a great story, and a great confluence of ... And you being true to your vision, being true to yourself, to what you knew was the absolute right way to practice the ... And you took a risk, right? And you continue every day, taking a risk. I know it. We've had these conversations. I'm trying to remember when we first connected because I've watched this thing go from birth to flourishing. And flourishing may not mean the same thing to you that it does to me, because I know your vision is grander. Dr. Fratkin: Well I know where we met. We met around ... There's a group in San Diego of one old-timer, one mid-timer, but some folks that have been inspired for more comprehensive cancer care in the community for a long time. A fellow by the name of Dan Vicario and the dear, dear friend of mine. I call him my grand brother, Paul Brenner, a psychologist with a deep connection. A psychologist and physician with deep connections to really thoughtful and complete approach to people with serious illness. And it was through them that they connected me to you. Dr. Bob: Right. And I remember that part very clearly. And I've had the honor and the privilege of collaborating on patients with both of them. And it is really; it's magical to be part of that with all of their combined years of wisdom and their just beautiful energy. But I'm trying to remember the stage that you were at. It was probably early on, and- Dr. Fratkin: It was probably in 2015. And without getting too wonkish about enterprise development so that we can get to the topic at hand, 2015 was the year of getting rolling and getting the team. And we did that. By September, we had a nurse, a social worker, chaplain, and office staff, as well as a little bit of a head of steam, with a group of patients. 2016, we really started to grow. And 2017, we continued to grow and sort of learned how to be a business that was sustainable. And coming into 2018, I'll just tell you today, Resolution Care network is tending to about 164 people in their homes, from the Oregon border to the north, the Pacific Ocean to the west, all the way to the ... I guess it's the Idaho/Nevada border to the east, south, pretty much to the Bay area with a couple of other folks a little bit further south. We've got 29 employees. We have contracts with four health plans. And we're making an impact with this model of care that we're developing. Yeah. Dr. Bob: That's beautiful. And of those 164 current patients, how many of those are receiving physical ... Are you able to get to visit physically, versus doing it entirely through video conferencing? Dr. Fratkin: It's variable. The key element is, is we really do what makes sense. So if a person lives down the street, it makes sense just to drop in and see them and sit on their couch and eat their cookies and chat with them that way. If they live 150 miles away from HQ, we're much more likely to engage with them by video conference. And it's really ... That's kind of what we built into the model. It's a hybrid model, both boots-on-the-ground, face-to-face encounters, with teleconferencing or video conferencing. And we do that in a really nimble fashion so that there are some people who really can't wrap their head around it. And if they're close enough, we provide them with a more traditional home care model. We have people who are right down the street who are very comfortable, in fact, prefer not having somebody knock on the door and walk into their house, but prefer to control the framework of the encounter. And then, different specialties. For my fellow providers and me, we're probably in the 85-90% video conferencing channel. Our nurses are probably in the 50-60% of their direct encounters are done by video. Our community health workers, the other end of the polarity, do very little video conferencing, because that's kind of what their value proposition is, is to be right there in the home with time and engagement to suss out what's needed. Our community health workers extend the reach of our doctors, our nurses, our social workers, and our chaplains. And they're given a lot of room to figure out what makes sense for each person and their family. So it's a variable ratio of boots-on-the-ground to remote engagement. Dr. Bob: Right. And what's cool about it is each situation is unique, and it probably changes over time as well. And I think it's fascinating; the different disciplines have the option of doing it whichever way makes the most sense for the provider as well as for the patient and family. Dr. Fratkin: For sure. At an organizational level for organization people who might be listening, it makes such great sense to use the technologies to eliminate the inefficiencies of travel. What's interesting ... I think we've talked about this before, but when I started to do initial consultations with people, first encounters to carry the arc of ... Oh, there are 8 or 10 elements that I've gotten accustomed to, to feel complete within an initial encounter. When I did it in a clinic setting, or at home, it was a 90 to 120-minute encounter, easily, and really exhausting. But when I started doing those same initial encounters by video conferencing, over and over and over again, they came to a place of completion in about half the time. Dr. Bob: Why is that? Dr. Fratkin: I think it's because we are primates. I think that when you walk into a person's home, there's a whole lot of social primate behavior. There's a whole lot of framing that includes so much more than just the relational engagement, one-on-one, with another person. There's the environment; there's the space, there's how the person feels about inviting a person into their home. There's their level of attention to, let's say, housekeeping, or their level of anxiety about how much energy they have to do housekeeping. There are the dogs; there's the feeling like you're hosting a doctor in your home, or a social worker, whoever. There are the elements of ... If you're really, really sick, maybe you just didn't feel like taking a shower this morning, but the doctor's coming, so you have to put yourself through a whole preparation mode. All of those things are, frankly, in the way of a relationship of trust. They're complications. So I've come to accept that actually doing care virtually is better than real life. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. I find that fascinating, because I do some care, some visits remotely that way. The vast majority, 95+% of them are in patient's homes. So those social, primal, primate behaviors, to me, I find those really endearing. And I think it's almost like a friendship is developing at the same time as a doctor-patient relationship. But I'm not seeing the same volume as you, so I have the luxury of being able to do that at this stage of the game. Dr. Fratkin: I think that's true. I think there are some other things that are hidden in plain sight that relate to it. I'm sure you'll agree that one of the great challenges for hospice work, palliative care work, complex conditions, where people with huge loads of social challenges with sensitive, inspired, caring caregivers and healthcare professionals ... One of the greatest challenges to this work is learning about the nature of boundaries. It shows up in every hospice organization, every palliative care organization, in the hospital, where people get confused about where they begin and where the people that they're attending to begin, or where they begin and end. The I and Thou, to quote Martin Buber. That is very interesting and hard to teach. The way that most of us learn is that we screw it up. We get caught up with the other person's energies. We end up feeling we must keep them pleased. We don't necessarily ... Well, here's the teaching metaphor that I use. I'll see if I can create a visual of this for you and the listeners. Bob, do you remember way back when, in the dark ages, when you took Physics? Dr. Bob: Yes, vaguely. Dr. Fratkin: Vaguely. And do you remember studying the components of an electronic circuit? Dr. Bob: Even more vaguely. Dr. Fratkin: Okay. Things like resistors and transistors. Dr. Bob: Capacitors. Dr. Fratkin: Capacitors and stuff, right? Now, I bet you don't quite remember. Maybe you do. You're a smart guy. What a capacitor actually is. Do you remember what a capacitor is? Dr. Bob: In the interest of time, I'm gonna let you- Dr. Fratkin: That's good. Good call, Doc. A capacitor is this: it's two plates. Imagine tiny little squares. One of them's a positive, anode; the other is the cathode. I think that's right, a negative. And they sit inside of a circuit with a proximity to each other and a surface area. And the closer they are together, and the more surface area they have in association with each other, the higher the capacitance. Whatever the stuff of capacitance is that contributes to doing what's needed to an electronic circuit, which is way above my pay grade, is proportional to the surface area and the proximity. And I think that that's better than thinking about staying professionally or technically detached from the people we care for. What we've built is a system that constructs ... All I'm here to do is to give you the technically, medically best treatment. And I can't really allow myself to engage with the truth of what's going on for you as a human being, because that'll make my hands shake in the operating room. That'll make me not make the right choices on your behalf, or provide you with the right recommendations. And I think what that done is it's alienated healthcare professionals from the people that have medical challenges, right? Dr. Bob: Absolutely. Dr. Fratkin: Professional detachment is a 20th century, obsolete concept. My concept is that what we're called to do, especially for people who are feeling the threat to their very existence, is to open as much of ourselves as we can, create a greater surface area, and have the courage to maintain the closest proximity to their circumstances. To understand what's going on. But what happens with the capacitor ... If the two plates touch- Dr. Bob: Kaboom. Dr. Fratkin: Circuit's completed, and there's no capacitance. If you get caught up in people's shit, then you lose the ability to really create the magic that lives between those two plates in close proximity. In human encounters, I say that it's not capacitance that arises with proximity and willingness to be open. What arises is empathy. And empathy is the secret sauce of understanding how to be of service to another person. But if you're caught up in them, if their happiness or well-being becomes relevant to your own happiness or well-being, then you've completed the circuit, and you lose the capacity to have the perspective of being of service to them. It's a long and involved metaphor. Dr. Bob: Yeah, but it's a great one. It's a great one. I'm gonna- Dr. Fratkin: Here's an example. With your wife ... Or actually, with my wife, being with my wife, not you with my wife, but me with my wife ... We are intertwangled. And we sometimes struggle to have enough individuation to understand what each other needs. But we're necessarily, intimately one. One circuit, my family, right? And so I struggle with different kinds of things there than I do in work. It's not a matter of distance; it's a matter of entanglement. When I, for example, being asked to see a 56-year-old person with a brain tumor and two children, the distance I can get in proximity to him is greater than with an old woman who doesn't look anything like my own life. So I have a little bit more room. Others on my team may be able to step right into tending to that father. But for me, I have to create a little bit less proximity in order to make sure that I don't get entangled in the reality of what's going on for him because it so resonates with my own fears and worries about myself. So I can manage the proximity consciously, and by having a team that has a whole different set of concerns and triggers. There, we're intentionally talking about the distance we can tolerate. The best possible scenario is you're almost touching, but not quite. So we have to manage that consciously, and that is one of the ways that I train people around boundaries. This is a very circular way to talk about what I think one of the great advantages of video conferencing in a frame, is that it's literally a frame around the encounter, around the relationship and development. It's necessarily a division. It's necessarily a boundary. And while I can get very close and understand empathically what that person is having, I'm not sitting on their bed. I'm not reacting to their place on the political spectrum, which may be revealed by their red baseball caps or bookshelf. I'm not struggling with my own biases. They are in their most comfortable place as a person, not having had to prepare, go to a clinic, and deal with the waiting room and all the rest of it. They're just at home, as themselves. And I am similarly in a work environment that I've constructed, that I'm very comfortable with. And so, in some ways, the frame around which we ... within which we encounter and develop a relationship, has this necessarily built-in boundary. And so I think that's part of why, rather than two hours, it takes one hour to get to the same place. And that once people have the experience, it's much, much more comfortable for them than home invasions. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. What's interesting is, I'm assuming ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that this has all just been learned as you built this. The rationale and the initial inspiration for doing video conferencing, I'm assuming, was efficiency and being able to connect with people who are in more remote areas. I'm sure that you had very little awareness or understanding about all these additional benefits and advantages that you've come to, that you're just describing. Dr. Fratkin: Yeah. Well, just like I don't have any idea what benefits and nuances and subtleties I'm yet to discover over the next few years. But yeah, you're right. I mean, I started because I noticed that I have had this amazing smartphone and that I'm using it to text and to call and to talk to people on the phone and all the rest. But I realized that it was worth exploring, whether or not a synchronous audiovisual experience with two people in two different places, working on the same thing together, whether that would work. Because I have this crazy, amazing supercomputer in my pocket called an iPhone. So a lot of it was curiosity. I didn't really quite get the efficiencies and the network development until I started playing around with it. The way that I discovered it was, a friend of mine who works at Google told me about a project that came and went over about 11 months, called "Helpouts." And Google had this project where they were setting up a platform that included video conferencing, the "Hangouts" app, a webpage that you could tell your story about what expertise you wanted to share with other people, a scheduling function, a wallet function, and a messaging function, all on one little webpage. And if you had Chinese cooking that you wanted to teach, you could put your page up there, invite people to take a look, and if they wanted to schedule you, they could. And you'd charge them $15 for a half hour or whatever you wanted to charge. If you wanted to help people with their business plans or filling out their tax forms or whatever other expertise you might wanna share, you were out on the sort of open market, and direct consumer engagement would allow you to do it. So he asked me, would I wanna do it for palliative care. And I said, "Yeah, sure." So I spent two hours throwing up a little thing, and within a month, I had five people reach out to me. And the first person that did was a woman who was in a hospital in the Bronx, in terrible pain, from a metastatic cancer problem. And she was miserable and interested in talking. So we connected, and about five minutes, five seconds, the technology itself disappeared, and there I was, doing my thing. And within 30 or 40 minutes, we're both kind of in tears about the big picture of things. And it was really clear that some basic fundamentals of managing her symptoms would make a big difference. So I got her permission to reach out to the hospitalist tending to her. He was willing to talk to me. I told him, "Do x, y, and z." And the following day, she was discharged from the hospital. And I connected again, and she was so grateful for that advocacy and the difference that it made in her life. And I knew that this could so work. Dr. Bob: Yeah. What a beautiful story to spearhead and show you the impact. Dr. Fratkin: So it was more about just curiosity of what can I do with this crazy iPhone in my pocket? I hadn't really put it together that I was gonna build a social enterprise called Resolution Care at that point. I was just trying to figure out why are we not using this tool? And so I started using it, and it worked. Dr. Bob: That's great. So hey, I have a question. You and I, we're both palliative care physicians. We both specialize and are passionate about bringing people the best possible and holistic support to deal with their struggles and their challenges. And we know what works, right? And anyone who's involved in palliative care understands the value, sees the value on so many levels. On the human level, the financial level, the social level. Why are we having ... Why do you think we're having such a hard time getting traction and seeing palliative care become what it needs to become? Because you're working within the system. You're working with insurers, and you're working with the whole Medicare and insurance billing component, as well as contracting. What's your take on it? What's going on? I know it's a big question. And it's not a simple answer, but I really wanna hear your thoughts on it. Dr. Fratkin: Yeah, no. I think I would probably disagree with you. And only because- Dr. Bob: That's good. I'm happy to hear that, too. Dr. Fratkin: Only because this morning I happened to have a little bit of perspective. I don't know why that is. It might be just; I hit the number of cups of coffee just right. But I think what I would say is it's happening at an almost spectacular pace. It's amazing what's occurred for our society as it relates to our mortality in the last few years. That there's a transformative change in the public conversation around death and dying. I just happen to be pretty well-timed to get up on my surfboard and ride that wave, while also contributing to that wave through having conversations like this one. But let's go back to 2014. In 2014 in October, the Institute of Medicines Dying in America study, the second version was published. It was, I think, 10 or 11 years after they did it the first time, where they did a very deep dive into how people in America finished their lives. And what they basically said in that report was it sucks, and it hasn't changed in 12 years. It talked about how much bias there was and how little capacity there was for palliative care in cancer patients. But they also talked about the aging population, the demographic shifts that are intensifying this sort of tsunami, silver tsunami of people with a greater burden of illness, and the cost of health care, and the absence of focused and targeted support structures for people as they completed their life. And they said, "Why hasn't it changed for 12 years?" A month later, Atul Gawande published "Being Mortal," a blowout success that surprised even him, about bringing this conversation to "How do we die in America?" To a more narrative discussion. And you and I, in our field, we've been talking about these issues for 20 years, maybe longer. And I ask myself ... Well, actually, when Atul Gawande presented to the American Economy of Hospice and Palliative Medicine in 2015, he was interviewed by the Philadelphia Inquirer. And before his presentation, he says, "Gosh, Dr. Gawande, you have this blowout New York Times bestseller. Everybody's reading your book. What are you gonna tell all these hospice and palliative care doctors when you talk to them tomorrow?" And he said, "Well, I'm gonna say thank you. And I'm gonna ask the question, 'Why haven't they been listening to you?" And I was disappointed the next day when he actually didn't ask that question. He [inaudible 00:40:34] from his prepared remarks. But I found myself, for the next few days, thinking about that question [inaudible 00:40:42]. Why haven't they been listening to those of us that have been doing hospice or working with death and dying, working with families very closely, learning what brings value to them? Why haven't they been listening to us? And I think the answer is that we were talking to ourselves, talking to each other, thinking in terms of big health care delivery systems and academic papers and elevating our own careers through the accumulation of initials and prestige and all the rest. The academy of hospice and palliative medicine was academic, an ivory tower, and not really directing its attention outward. And I told Gawande, his voice was completely outward-directed, and it wasn't because he was such a great doctor. It was because he was a son. And being mortal, he's a clueless ears, nose, and throat surgeon who was getting it wrong. Then he, as a son, experienced the challenges that his father faced. And that transformed his perspective as a physician. So his story of conversion was related not to his role as world-famous, world-renowned surgeon. It was related to his role as a son. And so he ... And he's such a brilliant communicator and journalist. Now fast-forward three years later. He is selected by Berkshire Hathaway, Amazon, and whoever the heck, to lead an organization as a symbol of what's possible by thinking out of the box. And as a symbol, that his orientation is grounded, his career has exploded so that he is the leading, most exciting CEO in health care. And he's completely grounded in an understanding of what person-centered care must turn out to be. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That is exciting. That's an exciting development. Dr. Fratkin: And then there's BJ Miller and the traction that he got telling his story as a TED Talk. And then there's Jessica Zitter with her book, called "Extreme Measures." And then there's Shoshana Ungerleider, working in the Bay area, kind of behind-the-scenes, producing powerful documentary films, one of which, "Extremis," was nominated for an Academy Award. But these powerful experiences taking the public into places that we've been populating for decades. The intensive care unit, or the hospital-based palliative care program. And bringing people into that, that wouldn't otherwise look. Not to mention, the millennial spirit of younger people is that they don't blink. They don't avert their gaze at what's difficult. They tend to be drawn towards things that represented shadows for the previous generations. So I think there's a lot happening, that's happening very fast. And in three-and-a-half years, we built this organization kind of on the strength of that, and with the advantage of being an outsider like you, Bob. Dr. Bob: Well, I appreciate that perspective. And hearing you speak, it's inspiring. And it's true. Things are happening. There is a groundswell. I guess my perspective, A) I'm just, in general, a very impatient person. And B) I'm out here in the community speaking. And my of the talks are really focused on older groups, and I still have rooms that are filled with people who just don't really know about palliative care. And when there is palliative care in the community outpatient setting discussed, a lot of times, people have felt that it couldn't fulfill their needs. Because there's A) not enough providers, B) the offerings are not complete enough. And a lot of that has to do with the payment, the reimbursement models. So on the one hand, I do see that we are moving in the right direction, and that's exciting. And at the same time, I'm frustrated because I still ... And as I know, you see this as well. We still see people who are day-in and day-out, struggling, because their needs are not getting met. And we know what they need, and it's just not available to enough people today. Dr. Fratkin: No. It's super true, Bob. I mean, I feel exactly the same way. And for my own psychic well-being, there was a long time ago that I had to make the choice that I wasn't gonna focus on the unmet need or demand as the target of my attention. I was gonna focus on building capacity. And that I was gonna not worry about the fact that I could have burned myself out again trying to deal with one out of four people that I could get to in the hospital. I could have stayed inside of that, like most of us do, just trying to push that boulder up the hill. But what I had to do was to take a risk and say, "For those three or four people I don't get to, in their interest, not the same people but the next three or four or five or six or 12 or 250, it's gonna take some strategic thinking to build capacity." And there are so many sad stories. And as soon as I hear their names or hear some element of their stories, my heart starts to break and be frustrated with them that they don't get the service or don't know that there's a service that would help them. But my focus is not so much on those people; as it is, I know there are so many of them out there that my best efforts are to build capacity to manage and to set the tone of what palliative care capacity building looks like. We believe that it's not just whatever you could cobble together with crappy resources from whoever your institutional home is. Palliative care is best provided by a team of individuals who are well-supported in sustainable, soulful workplaces, but include a nursing perspective, a chaplaincy perspective, a social work perspective, and provider perspective. We are committed to that. So what we provide is actually pretty expensive. And the good news is, is that what we provide delivers to our health plan partners, a three to five x return on investment. Every dollar they spend turns into three to five that they saved. And they can measure those dollars. So they're interested in program development and building capacity for us. We think in the state of California, less than .5% of people who would benefit from palliative care support are getting it. If I focus on that 99.5 % of people who are suffering terribly- Dr. Bob: You'll be paralyzed, right? Dr. Fratkin: It breaks me down. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Dr. Fratkin: But I'm trying to get from .5 to 1. And I'm trying to do it by providing soulful, sustainable, meaningful experiences for my treasured colleagues. Nurses and all these people who, 100 years ago or 500 years ago or 5,000 years ago, would still be doing the same thing. They wouldn't be called nurses; they would be called neighbors. They would be called aunties. They would be called "the ones you call for help when you need it." It's been a part of human society forever, and we are burning out those people in a terrible way. So I'm just as loyal to creating incredible work experiences for those folks, as I am to building capacity to tend to the needs of sick folks, too. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And that's a beautiful thing. And that's how this will grow, sustain itself, by nurturing those who are serving others. Because this work, it's difficult, it's challenging, it is emotionally trying, and as I think we both experienced this, it is such ... It also fills us up in a way that nothing else does. And we don't throw the word "love" around enough. We had a meeting with my team a couple days ago. And when you try to really identify the essence of what we do, and really what we do is we love people, and then we take our skills and our experience and our wisdom, and we apply those in the way that we express our love for them. Dr. Fratkin: For sure. I was talking to a Native American fellow who lives up in the hills. And I was exploring with him his relationship to tribe and culture. And I'm not sure how we got there, and I wish I could remember the pronunciation of the word, but I won't massacre it. But he was explaining to me that there's a word that's being used by the tribe and others that kind of means "thank you," but it's being used in the "thank you" way. In a very, sort of, superficial way. But he said that the word itself is very much more specific. It's the kind of thank you or gratitude that's offered to someone who showed up to meet a need you had. If you're old and someone brings you food, it's the thank you for that. If your roof is leaking, but you can't fix it or afford it, and the guys hop in the truck and start throwing shingles on your roof, it's the thank you for that. It's the thank you for showing up and meeting a need for someone in your community. It's not "Thanks." It's deeper than that. And the presence that we bring, the willingness to love while preserving boundary, the willingness to respect the otherness of these people that we care for. And the willingness to drink a lot of coffee and build out a system to create beautiful jobs and keep the vision as clean and clear as possible. It's the thank you I feel from the community, even if I don't hear it said. I'm so proud of what this team has done for so many people we've touched. 1100, 1200 people who wouldn't otherwise have gotten this care. And that means there are 5-10,000 people who we didn't touch. I'm sad about that, but I'm proud of the work that this incredible team has done over these last three years with very little resource and a ton of coffee. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And a ton of passion and a ton of- Dr. Fratkin: Love. Dr. Bob: Love and determination. And proud you should be, my friend. And I'm excited to continue to follow your progress and the progress of Resolution Care and the impact that you're having. And your model is a model that I'm sure many will want to learn and try to apply in their communities. So before we sign off, I would love for the listeners to go and check out your website. That's resolutioncare.com. And in addition, there's a foundation and an opportunity to help support this amazing, so, so needed care. So you have a 501C3, I understand. Dr. Fratkin: It's called Resolution Care Institute, and there's a page on our website. And if people have a few dollars, they wanna donate, that's absolutely welcome. Yeah. And also, I guess I would ask them, too ... We create maybe once or twice a month what I consider to be pretty high-valued content in a newsletter. And I would love to build the community, so on the website, all you have to do is put in your name and email address, and we'll send you stuff. And if you don't think it has value, you just unsubscribe to it. But I suspect you'll enjoy being a part of our community. We tend to ... We're trying to figure out how to tell stories about the impact of the work that we're doing while getting ourselves out of the way. Just letting people tell their own stories. So we've done that with some videos, and we've done that with some blog posts and other newsletters. And the response we get is favorable. So I'd really like to build that community out if people are inclined. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Awesome. Well, we'll fully try to support that, and to everyone's benefit. And we'll also have the links for Michael's site and the ways to connect with him on our website, integratedmdcare.com. Michael, thank you. You're so passionate, articulate. I could listen to you all day, describing your views and your excitement about what you're doing. And I would love to try to connect again. And I know that there are several things that we wanted to touch on that we didn't have time to, but hopefully- Dr. Fratkin: I'm happy to do this anytime, Bob. This is how we're making an impact, is by telling the truth and sharing that.

Euthanasia in the Netherlands is Helping People Who Want to Die, Dr. Rob Jonquière Ep. 13

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 20, 2018 49:09

Dr. Rob Jonquière is the Executive Director of the International Federation for Right to Die Societies. He shares how euthanasia is helping people who want to die in the Netherlands. Now, assisted suicide is also legal. Hear how this is impacting the country. Contact World Federation of Right To Die Societies website San Diego Hemlock Society website Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to another episode of Life and Death Conversation. I'm Dr. Bob Uslander, and I'm here today with a guest who I'm anxious to hear from. He's got a rich experience in caring for people at the end of life, and he's really on the forefront of the movement to assist people in having a more peaceful and dignified end of life worldwide. So, welcome Dr. Rob. Jonquière. Thank you for joining me today. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Good evening, yes. Dr. Bob: Yes. It is evening. For me, it's morning, for you it's evening. Dr. Rob Jonquiere: Sorry. Dr. Bob: Can you tell us where you're calling, where we're talking from? DrRob Jonquière: Amsterdam, in the Netherlands. It's evening here at this moment. Dr. Bob: Very nice, and you were just mentioning to me that you're in the midst of winter, but you're having some- Dr. Rob Jonquière: It's not a real winter, unfortunately. It's too hot. They are expecting a little bit colder next week, of course, in my youth, I used to go skating outside, and it is a long time since we have been able to do that, so probably the climate change, I'm afraid. Dr. Bob: Well, as you know, I'm in sunny San Diego right now, having grown up in the Midwest in Chicago, I had my fair share of snowy, cold winters, so I'm feeling fairly blessed knowing what's happening in the Midwest and the East Coast right now. Well, again, thanks for taking time. We met not long ago, a month or two ago, when you were here in San Diego at a conference, and I got to a chance to hear a bit about your background and what you're involved with, and I think we are kind of birds of a feather. We seem to share a belief system and philosophy about how people should be cared for and supported at the end of life. You live in a very progressive country, with respect to this, and you've been a pioneer for many years, so I'd love for you to share a bit about what you're doing and kind of give us a sense of how you came to be in this position. What was the path that brought you here? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Well, actually, at this moment, I'm involved in the international movement as it is called, the Federation for Right to Die Societies, which is an international federation of 52 societies, like the Hemlock Society of San Diego is one of the members, and I am the executive director of that federation, which implies actually looking after the website of the federation and assisting the committee or the board of the Board of Directors of the federation, and I came there after I was retired. I had been retired from my work at the Dutch Right to Die Society, NVVE as the name is, and in my retirement, I'm not used to sitting still, doing nothing, and I'm very interested in the whole movement, not only in the Netherlands but also worldwide. When I was working at the NVVE, I was started work there about five days after the health minister brought her bill, an euthanasia bill in the Parliament, so I have been involved in all the debates actually right from the beginning in the parliamentary debates, and as Chief Executive Officer of the NVVE, I've been for eight, nine years involved in the practical situation after the bill was approved in the Parliament, and now we have our official euthanasia law since 2002, and having a law is not the end of ... Well, it is the end of a process, but it's the beginning of a new process, to get people to accustomed to the fact that we have a law where it is legal for a doctor to assist in euthanasia, and aid in dying as it is called today, and we have to see the patients get what they want and that the law is used as it should be. And, of course, it's interesting how I became to be the executive officer because my original profession is a family medicine, so I have been working as a family doctor in the eastern part of the country, and I know from the beginning, I always have been very interested in ... Well, let's say, not the patient with colds, or a little complaints or things like that, but especially the situations in which patients needed guidance, whatever they need guidance in, so I have been delivering babies on the one side of the life, and I also became involved in the end of life guidance, where automatically, in that period, first careful questions came from patients especially patients working in the healthcare field, about my position regarding euthanasia as it was known, but as it was illegal at that moment. And, of course, I had never got training on what euthanasia was, how you do it, or what kind of medication you use, so it's using your experience and trying to sort of help people die in a peaceful and dignified way, and of course having been given this kind of help, I have never reported it, because if I had reported it, I would have been persecuted and probably get before the courts, and I didn't want to do that- Dr. Bob: Of course not. Dr. Rob Jonquière: No, and my patients didn't want to have me in front of courts. They asked me to help. They said not if you're getting trouble, and of course, in the situations I'm talking about, it has been patients with terminal cancer situations, who actually were really at the end of their lives, suffering from their cancer situations, although we have been treating with all kinds of care and medication and help we could. Dr. Bob: So, I want to touch on that, I want to clarify a bit for anybody who would like that, this was occurring when you were a practicing family doctor. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, the '70s, '80s. Dr. Bob: Okay, and you were doing the whole full spectrum of caring for people from birth to death, and you recognized that there were people who were suffering, and you obviously philosophically felt comfortable with providing that support, even though it was not legal. So, first of all, the statute of limitations, I'm assuming the statute of limitations, for that type of activity, is past so that you can speak freely about it- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. Dr. Bob: About your experiences back then. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, I can, and I mean, even you can say that is kind of a Dutch culture. I mean, at that moment, I could not go to the authorities and say, listen, I've terminated a life of a patient because she was suffering terribly, so I just said, in my records, that she died because of her cancer, which was actually the case. I only speed up the dying process a little bit. Dr. Bob: Which is the same as the aid of dying laws here in the United States, where the patients are dying. Anyone who is eligible for physician aid in dying is dying. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Certainly. That is now, and of course, in the Netherlands, it is now absolutely normal practice in terminal cancer situations. People are in such a situation, and don't want to go to the real end of the suffering can ask for it, and will get euthanasia without any problem. Dr. Bob: Okay, so let's go back. So you ended your clinical practice. What drove you at that point to stop practicing in the way that you were in that practice? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, you know, the main reason is I have always been interested to not only do my work as a family doctor, but I always liked to work in organization, to support, to develop things, to do on education, or research, or whatever, so I did many things besides my practice, and actually that became a little bit too much for a work situation, and then I got the opportunity to become the head of the vocational training program for family doctors, which actually meant that I could go to work on a university. I had the opportunity to be involved in research, in education, in organization, and it was still inside the field of the job and the kind of work I liked, which is family medicine. So, not specifically my work in the field of end of life, just a change of work from being a, let's say a medical practitioner into a person on university working on a higher level. Dr. Bob: Got it, and through that period, were you still working in the end of life arena, helping patients at end of life? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Not intentionally. Not as a kind of idea. There were other things that I was focusing on. You can say that I developed, in that period, the vocational training scheme for nursing home physicians, which is a little bit that way, and whenever in the curriculum of the vocational training, the topic was end of life or palliative care, although they didn't give it that name at that moment, but end of life care, guiding dying people, yes, of course, I was interested in that because it touched a part of my practical work. Dr. Bob: Wonderful. And, then additional sort of responsibilities and opportunities, and then eventually found yourself really diving fully into the Right to Die organization, is that right? Dr. Rob Jonquière: That was also, actually, accidentally. I was looking for ... I don't know whether you know the issue of middle management. Working at a university, I was all the time in a middle management position, and I wanted to take one step further at being, having the end responsibility of something, and then I was invited, actually, to applicate for the job of the chief executive officer of the Dutch Right to Die Society, and of course, the main question they asked me, what is your opinion on end of life and euthanasia, because they were, at that moment, advocating. It's a large advocacy group for euthanasia in the Netherlands, and I could say, I'm in favor of it. I did practice the issue, and I thought it, indeed, should be legalized because I practiced when it was not legal, and I knew what difficult situation that was, doing something, which is very emotional but being allowed to officially talk about it. So that was is where I applicated for a job of the Dutch Right to Die Society, and from that moment I was indeed more than 100% into end of life, euthanasia, medical aid to dying, and all of the developments. Dr. Bob: And, you were there, you mentioned, that euthanasia has been legal since 2002. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Since 2002, yes. Dr. Bob: This was all happening right at the beginning of your tenure there. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Well, fantastic. Can you describe for people who are listening what the different terms refer to? Dr. Rob Jonquière: The official translation of euthanasia is a good death, but in the Netherlands, we have since the middle '80s, the commission has looked into, and we have, in the Netherlands, defined euthanasia as the intentional termination of life on request of the person who is going to die. So it means that you do something, and the only aim of your action is that the patient is going die, and you only do that if the patient asks for it. So, if there is no request, you cannot practice euthanasia. You cannot practice euthanasia by giving medication, which, as a side effect, will terminate life of someone. Next, to euthanasia, which is an action by giving an injection, we have what we call assisted suicide. I know there is a lot of problems with the term suicide in the world, but we call it assisted suicide. There, as a doctor, you prescribe the medication, which causes death of the patient, but the patient takes the medication him or herself and legally- Dr. Bob: And, is that happening? Is that happening in the Netherlands as well, or has that pretty much gone by the wayside because of euthanasia being legal? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, the funny thing is that I've been speaking with my doctors of course, after the legalization, and all those doctors I spoke to said, well, I always want the patient to take the medication himself, so practice physician assisted suicide, still if we look at the figures in the Netherlands, we are lucky in the Netherlands that there is a very quality research and surveys going on what is happening, and there you see that between 85% and 90% or even more of the actions at the end of life is euthanasia, and only 5% is assisted suicide. So, officially, euthanasia is the main, so that's the reason why when we discuss the issue, we always talk only about euthanasia, but assisted suicide is the same, and you see that now some of the patients rather want to do it themselves. Some of the doctors, indeed, say if you want to die, you have to do something about it yourself, and I'm only prepared to give you the medication as you do in California. Dr. Bob: Okay. Is the medication being administered in the euthanasia cases, is that regulated? Is there a specific medication that everyone has access to? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, yes, it is officially one of an anesthesiologist, Pieter Admiraal, who you could call the inventor of the euthanasia medication, which is actually you bring the patient in a real deep coma, mostly by injecting barbiturates, an overdose of barbiturates, and after you have checked that patient really is in coma, and doesn't feel anything at all, you give again an overdose of a muscle relaxant, the medication anesthesiologist use when the patient is operated on. Dr. Bob: Okay. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, and that is now more or less a kind of protocol, and even if you look at our laws at this moment, it says, if you do it, you have to do it the proper way, which is you have to do it according to the medical standard, which is using that protocol, and the assisted suicide is just barbiturate, nine grams or 10 grams or so in a cloud of water. Dr. Bob: That's the same medication being used here, for the most part, the Seconal. Are there specific physicians who are trained in this, or what's that process like? How does a physician get certified or be allowed to do this? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, in the Netherlands and the Dutch law doesn't say that it has to be a certification. You have to be a doctor. That's the only thing you have to be. You have to follow the criteria of the law. The only certificate doctors are a group of second opinion doctors. Their obligation is, one of the criteria is that you have to consult a second independent doctor about case before you can perform the euthanasia, and these doctors are trained. Yes, of course, about the practicalities, about legal issues, but mainly about what kind of problems there are, and how to give a consultation to a colleague, if they are asked for it, but every doctor can actually practice euthanasia. Dr. Bob: Okay, like in California with the aid in dying, and the end of life option, it just requires a medical license, and the hope then is the physicians who are participating are becoming familiar, are becoming experts on their own. That's what we would hope. Dr. Rob Jonquière: I think that's what's happening. I mean, if you see in the Netherlands, we have of course what is it, 13, 14,000 family doctors, 85% of euthanasia is performed by family doctors, and you see of those family doctors, some 30%, 40% do it more regularly, which is still not more than two or three times a year in the average. So, they get used to how to do it, and there are manuals. We have papers or documents they can consult, and of course, that is where the second independent doctor can help. That doctor is trained. When that doctor comes, they can say, well, everything is okay, but, these and these things are not yet okay, and then the doctor can change that. We see more or less now, that sometimes, especially younger doctors don't go alone if they have to do it, but take an older colleague with them, so train themselves. Dr. Bob: Sure, we have mentors to help guide them. Is there opposition? Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, of course, that is also important of having a law. They are legally allowed to discuss their case. They can openly talk about, instead of having the fear that someone is listening and saying, hey, you have done something illegal and go to the police. Dr. Bob: Is there opposition in the Netherlands that is of significance? DrRob Jonquiere: There is. I don't think it is of significance. The main opposition is from the Orthodox-Protestant churches, and of course, we have the official opposition from the Catholic Church, the higher institutions. We see lower ... What do you call it? Clergy. Dr. Bob: Clergy, mm-hmm (affirmative). Dr. Rob Jonquière: Clergy working with family doctors, and then guiding their dying patients as well, but officially, the Church is against it, and practically we see 10% to 12% of doctors, mostly on religious situations, are not doing it principally, and then you have some 30%, 40% of doctors who are afraid, well, you know, don't know what to do, how to do, and don't want to go into that field. Dr. Bob: They just don't want to stretch themselves in that way. They don't feel comfortable for whatever reason. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Well, that's fascinating. I that there's a lot of people around the world, and a lot of people in the United States that are clearly in favor of laws that are more favorable towards helping people having a peaceful end of life, you know, I hear so often when I'm taking care of people who are struggling with end of life challenges that we take better care of our animals than we do of our people here in this country, and of course, they are referring to the ease of which we can have animals euthanized but not allowing humans to have their suffering end that way. Dr. Rob Jonquière: What I have heard from one of my opponents once, as well, that's why there is a difference between a dog and a man, a human. Dr. Bob: Easy to throw that out, but just sort of deflect the conversation. So I appreciate ... I know that a lot of people will be very interested in just hearing more of the specifics of what is happening in the Netherlands. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, you know, the funny thing is, Bob, if you look at the attitudes in the population, yes, of course, maybe in the Netherlands it is a little bit higher than in other countries, but what I see in my function as executive officer of the World Federation now is that in practically all countries, even in what is seen as Catholic countries, you see a population of over 60% to 70% who are in favor of it. So, it is not the population which is a problem, it is the politician, and the politicians who many times have, of course, have broader responsibilities. You see in some countries, and I think in the United States certainly, you see more influence from the churches on politicians because they are dependent on that kind of situations, and that is the situation we don't know in the Netherlands, and in some other countries in Europe as well. Dr. Bob: The ability to influence politicians that way? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah. Dr. Bob: With financial incentives and other types of influence. That is a problem ... and I know it is not unique to the United States, but it is especially problematic those influences, and in many cases, it comes down to fear and greed and how do you feel that the pharmaceutical industry or the insurance industry, the financial industry, how do you feel that they factor into this conversation? Dr. Rob Jonquière: As far as I know in the Netherlands, it's practically has no influence at all. That's of course because our system is based that if, as a doctor, you prescribe your medication, and the medication is known and accepted, it's being paid out of the insurance money, so what I hear from the States, where you pay, what is it, $3.5 thousand for a shot of Seconal, I don't know what it costs here, but maybe not more than 80, 90, or 100 euro which is paid by the insurance. So, there is no reason for patients not to have euthanasia because it is too expensive. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and that's in the Netherlands. I'm kind of trying to get the sense of the impact in the countries that don't have, you know, a national health service that covers the cost of care, and I'm sure there is some- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Then, it's what you see in the States, where actually, again, it is something which can only be done by patients who have the money for the medication. Dr. Bob: Well, can you give a sense of where you think things are heading worldwide? What's your prediction? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Well, I see the last years, there are changes going on. You see gradual changes, if you look at the United States, of course, you see more and more states getting over to laws, and unfortunately, there are impediments of financial reasons, but we see a change happening. I don't hope, actually, your new president will change something in the federal situation, because your Supreme Court is now more conservative, so if it comes to federal Supreme Court things, then you'll have some problems, but I see changing in the States, of course, changing Canada has an important push into America, I think. I see changes in Australia since Victoria has now a bill which will be in effect in 2019, I think, in June, and think that Victoria having passed a bill will mean the other states will also pass bills. They have been trying to do that, so there you see a gradual change and the only thing is I have no idea about Africa, which is, of course, a large continent, except South Africa, but that is practically not what I would call an African continental nation, but there is no movement at all in those countries as far as I know. And, in South America, we see Columbia having a law, and I know that countries like Ecuador or Chile who have even, in these kinds of laws, are more progressive than the Netherlands sometimes. So, I could imagine that maybe if they want that they would be able to change laws in this direction sooner. Dr. Bob: Well, it does seem like we're in general moving in that direction- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, I think so. Dr. Bob: Many states have bills that are being discussed, and when you refer to Australia, I'm interested in that. I just read a book called Dying, which was a fascinating account of a woman dying of metastatic melanoma, who was living in Australia, and had actually obtained medication through an online source, but was very reluctant to utilize it or let anyone know she had it because without there being a law in Australia, anybody who had knowledge of this, or who supported her, would potentially be susceptible to being prosecuted for aiding in a suicide. The law in Victoria that you were referring to is that euthanasia or- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes, it is euthanasia. Dr. Bob: It is euthanasia. Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, the law is called Medical Aid In Dying, so euthanasia is a possibility, so where doctors actively apply medication and also assisted or giving medication which they take themselves, so they really have a law in the direction of euthanasia. The only thing there is, and that is what you see, is that because they wanted to take the wind out of the sails of the opposition, they brought in a huge number of criteria and safeguards. So, even I have seen somewhere they said this law is the most safeguarded law in the world. You have to comply, what is it, about 68 or 72 safeguards, so it is very complicated, and fortunately, what I see for example is that more and more, just because they are in their fight against opponents, people say you must be ill. It must be a terminal illness. We see in the Netherlands, many people are maybe not terminal because we have what's terminal, I mean, everybody is going to die, so in a way, we are all terminal. So, terminal illness is involved. There's expectation that you have to die within a certain amount of months, so it takes away the whole idea that it is, and that's what I think is important. It has to go about the suffering of the patient. Dr. Bob: And, that's similar to our law here in California. There is that requirement that there is a six months prognosis, which is sometimes difficult to ascertain. Dr. Rob Jonquière: You know, probably like me that the worst issue for the doctor is to say how long you're going to live. Dr. Bob: We're not good at it. Dr. Rob Jonquière: And, you also know patients who you say, you won't live a month, and they're still alive after 10 years, and the other way around. Dr. Bob: So, in the Netherlands, with the euthanasia law, there is not a requirement for the person to have a terminal illness, is that correct? Dr. Rob Jonquière: No. The requirement is that you ask for it, and you have welcomed the request, and you have a well-considered request, and the request must be voluntary. You must be suffering, and the suffering must be unbearable and hopeless, and I always say that is a major issue in our law, the unbearability of suffering is only the patient can say, this is for me unbearable, and the hopelessness is reason for the doctor to say, I cannot make your suffering bearable, so in that way, it is hopeless. And, if you together say, you're suffering is unbearable and hopeless, then you have fulfilled the criteria in that field, and then you have your second independent doctor. You must have no real alternatives et cetera, et cetera. Dr. Bob: And, that really just gives the ... it gives the responsibility back to the patient. It allows them to determine what is bearable or unbearable for them. Dr. Rob Jonquière: For that issue, of course, in the Netherlands, our population, our members of the Right to Die Society are not very happy about the law, because as they say, it is a doctor's law. The law protects doctors against prosecution if they comply with the request for euthanasia, and the patients say, okay, I have to ask for it. That's my responsibility. Okay, I have to tell the doctor it is unbearable, but I'm dependent of a doctor who says, yes, I will do it. And, many people, and certainly, I think that is a kind of why you can't call it progress in our culture, say, if I say have ... my life finished. I'm suffering too much. I want to end my life. I have the right to have my life ended. There the problem always is that if you want to end your life well, and dignified, and humanely, you have the possibility of having the right medication, or pharmaceuticals, and the only way to have the right one is to go to your doctor and ask a prescription. Dr. Bob: So, it's still not perfect, at least according to the eyes of the people, but it's- Dr. Rob Jonquière: It's not perfect if you look at autonomy, things like that, and that is the kind of development I see at this moment in the Netherlands going on, where organizations are trying to find out, and maybe you know Phillip Nitschke from Australia. They're trying to find stuff, well you can't call it medication, but organics, or bills, or substances which can end your life in a humane, quick way, which you get outside the help of a doctor. You can do it yourself. I don't know whether that's good. That's my personal ... I hesitate. Dr. Bob: That opens an entirely different can of worms, and that could be another conversation. Do you have a sense of how many people in the Netherlands make a request, but are not found to qualify according to the physicians who are they are requesting it of? Dr. Rob Jonquière: It is more or less, already for years, we see that about 10 to 12,000 requests every year, a third of them are refused for all sorts of reasons because the request is not well-considered because doctor sees there is no real suffering, or there are alternatives. A third is honored the requests, so between three and four and it's getting a little bit more thousand cases every year died by euthanasia, and then the other third, there the patient dies sometimes before the actually the whole process is started, because the nature of thing is, which we didn't speak about, I think one of the things when I talked to my patients, and I told them, if they really thought their suffering was unbearable, and I could do something more, and they asked, then, in the end, I would really help them. Then I saw, that actually they lived much longer in a rather good quality of life, and died in a natural way, just because they knew they were going be helped if it got really bad. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I had that experience where just the knowledge that the patients have this option available improves their quality of life from the moment I had that first conversation. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yeah, that maybe is a major positive effect of having a law. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's one of them, for sure. Do you know the statistics, I'm assuming that you do, but if you don't that's understandable, of what percentage of deaths that have occurred in the Netherland occur as a result of euthanasia? Dr. Rob Jonquière: The latest report ... you must know that every five years, we do a large survey asking doctors about their actions at the end of life, and we have such large and solid responses on it that you can extrapolate your whole population, so you see that the last time, it was a little more than 3%, and I think in the last year, when we had the report from the committees, it was practically 4% of all deaths cases in the Netherlands. Dr. Bob: Okay. Does that seem low to you? It seems a little low to me, for some reason. Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. Well, it is low, as many people think. Sometimes, if you don't know the numbers, they give you the idea that in the Netherlands, when you walk in the street, and you look a bit ill, you are killed by euthanasia. That is not happening at all, and I would say it is only 4%. We see a gradual increase in the numbers and in the percentage. I think it is too early yet to see whether that is going be a steady phase, or whether we're still growing, growing further, but certainly, it is not as many, especially opponents suggested, as soon as you legalize, you open the door to thousands of- Dr. Bob: The floodgates come in, and people are knocking down the doors looking to be euthanized. Dr. Rob Jonquière: But, of course, I realized when I was working with the Dutch Society that since we are a rather small country, so our total death cases are about 140,000 every year if you talk about 4 percent, you talk about 6,000 euthanasia cases every year. If you live in a country like the States, where you have millions more, probably a higher death number, and then you talk about only 4%, you're talking about a large, larger numbers which are, if you look at what papers or communications say about it, it is, of course, more impressive than when we started to talk. We had 2,000 cases every year, which you can say, oh it's only 2,000. Dr. Bob: Well, this has been really educational, and I think fascinating, and I know many of the listeners will appreciate what you shared, now you're speaking around the world. You go to the Federation meetings, and is their information or issues that you feel would be important to bring out that I didn't have a chance to ask about? Is there anything that you think that you hear questions over and over again that you feel would be valuable? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Oh, I think what we addressed today is more or less what is generally felt. It's of course important that if you talk, if you're interested in the issue that you should orient yourself on the right arguments and don't listen too much to the opponents, because many times, I see opponents misusing ... for example, the numbers we produce in the Netherlands, just to give you a small example, we had in '85 or '90, the first large survey and it appeared at that moment that a thousand times every year, a doctor terminates the life of a patient without having a request from the patient. Of course, everybody said that is wrong. I mean, you only do it if there's a request. If you don't do it on request, you're actually committing a murder. We see that number getting down to the last time, I think it was about 100 cases every year, and even there, we know those 100 cases were no murders but were specific situations, for example, very small children who were suffering enormously where doctors terminated life or terminated suffering actually, and officially, performing euthanasia without request, because a small child cannot ask it, so it is a very small number, and even that small number can be explained from humane actions by doctors, and still our opponents tell that in the Netherlands, they kill a thousand patients without request, and that kind of messages, I see everywhere in the world getting around, and getting first at patients or people who are interested in the issue. So, one of the things I mostly do when I speak around the world is explaining our situation in the Netherlands, and say, it is different from what you hear from the papers because they use those wrong figures. Dr. Bob: Well, that's really helpful, and I think it is important to caution people to be careful about the information that you are letting and- Dr. Rob Jonquière: Especially nowadays, don't take in fake news. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And if people want to get more information or learn more about you and the Federation, the website is www.worldrtd.net. Right? Dr. Rob Jonquière: Yes. That's right, and there you can get every information. You can get general information of what's happening around the world, and of course, you can find the addresses of the 52 national societies with emails and with website addresses, so from there on, you can click wherever you want to go.

Healing After A Loss, Ken Druck Ep. 3

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 20, 2018 40:13

Dr. Ken Druck's work in personal transformation, male psychology, parenting, and grief literacy has awakened readers to their absolute best selves for almost four decades. In this episode, Dr. Druck and Dr. Bob talk about healing after a loss. Contact Dr. Ken Druck website Transcript Dr. Bob: I'm here with a good friend of mine who I'm excited to have this conversation with. Ken Druck and I have had many conversations over the years, most of which end up being fairly deep and a lot of insights come out of them. I think we're just both in this space of really contemplating life as well as death just because of who we are and our experiences. I'm excited to have Ken share some of his insights. He'll do that in just a moment, but I'd like to introduce him to you. Ken's work in personal transformation, parenting, psychology, and the literacy of grief has really helped people become, I think, their best selves for almost 40 years now. When you look at Ken, you can't believe he's been doing this work for that long. He's the recipient of numerous awards including a Distinguished Contribution to Psychology, Visionary Leadership Award. He has really a lifetime of service to the community. He's recognized really as a lifeline to people all over the world, to individuals, families, and communities through his work, which includes the founding of the Jenna Druck Center to honor the life and spirit of his daughter, Jenna; and we'll talk a bit about Jenna and the foundation that he created. Ken really has kind of set a new standard of care and healing out of tragedies like 9/11, Columbine, Katrina, and Sandy Hook, and I look forward to having him talk a little bit about how those experiences have shaped his life and his perspective. Ken has recently come out with a new book called Courageous Aging: Your Best Years Ever Reimagined. In this book, Dr. Ken explores the fears, some of the myths and biases in our culture about aging, so it's a perfect setup here for this conversation. In the book, he also kind of debunks a lot of the myths and offers a path to help people immerse themselves in the wisdom that we've cultivated over the course of our lives. With that introduction, I would like to introduce and ask Ken to say hello. Dr. Ken Druck: Greetings, Bob. So good to be with you and in a conversation, in a life and death conversation. My goodness. What a wonderful forum you've created to be able to talk openly and safely about all these important issues that so directly improve the quality of our lives and the quality of our deaths. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. The inspiration for this really comes from life, from just being in this space. You're the same way. You're having conversations with people, both personal and in your professional life. I think, like me, there are many times when you think, wow, if somebody else had been able to listen in on this conversation, how much value would they have received, how much insight into their own issues and their own struggles and their own sort of triumphs. The conversations I have with my patients, with their families, with people like you, I think are so valuable, and I don't want to keep it to ourselves, right? I feel compelled and pulled to really allow people in on these conversations, so thank you for being willing to join in. Dr. Ken Druck: Thank you for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah, absolutely. In your introduction, I abbreviated it. There's so much more, and I think we're going to have a conversation that will last about 30 minutes. I know that the wealth of information that you have and the experiences and insights could go on for 30 hours or potentially 30 days. It's going to be a challenge, but we're going to try to keep this concise enough, and then probably have follow- up conversations as time goes on. I posed some questions to you in advance of our conversation, and I want to jump right in. I don't mince words, and I don't pull back. I just want to get this out there because I want this to be part of our conversation, and I want it to inform and infuse our conversation. What are your thoughts about death? Are you afraid of dying? Do you have fear about dying? When you think about death, what comes up for you? Dr. Ken Druck: Well, it's a great question that does go right to the core. For me, the fear or the feelings about death are a moving target. It's not as though you run a marathon and you cross the 26-mile line and it's done. I think things that happen over the seasons and the course of our lives ask us or challenge us or force us to confront how we feel about death, and I'm no different. The death of my daughter 21 years ago was an opportunity as well as a tragedy— the opportunity to face down my biggest fears of death. My daughter had died. I had to come face-to-face with that reality, starting with holding her body in my hands, in my arms, facing the idea that her life as we knew it had ended. I thought going all the way back to last year where my 92-year-old mother passed, and I had a chance to help her die. I think the things that happen that we react to or the losses we suffer effect and change and create opportunities for us to face down our biggest fears of death, to comes to terms with our life as it really is, life on its terms as it is, and to settle some of those fears. Now, are they going to be settled forever? Are we going to find peace or make peace and have peace forever and it's a done deal? No. Those concerns, those feelings, the sorrow, the love, the complex of emotions that come with dealing with death are going to bubble up and resurface. We want to make sure not just to wait for death to arrive or somebody we love to pass. We want to be proactive and take steps to get ahead of the pain curve, to get ahead of the fear curve. Dr. Bob: That's awesome. How do you do that? I know it might be hard just to distill it down into a sentence or two, but how do you get ahead of that? If there's somebody who maybe has fear because of an experience because maybe somebody in your family had a tragic death or a difficult death and, like many people, you live with this underlying anxiety or fear about this mystery and when is it going to happen and how painful is it going to be. How do you think people can get ahead of that? Dr. Ken Druck: Well, I boiled it down to what I call the five ideals of courageous living and how we face down the fear of death. I've got basically five things that I recommend. Number one, stay humble, find peace in your unknowingness because there're sometimes in life where we just don't know, and we have to hold that unknowingness in gentle hands rather than trying to force and will it into knowingness. We're basically part of something so big that at times it's unfathomable. The true nature of the universe—where life comes from, where it goes when we die—is an unfolding mystery. All we have to do is look up at the stars to understand that. The second thing is to cultivate a calm mind that allows naturally arising fears and doubts to come and go and learn to breathe and release even those primordial fears. It's kind of a form of surrender, and we can learn how to make peace with life as it really is by summoning courage, by facing in. Third is to take the elephant out of the room by opening the lines of conversation, just as you and I are doing today by talking about death and discussing our thoughts and feelings with people we trust. Fourth, keeping the faith of whatever we believe in our heart to be true or what we wish to be true. It's okay to abide by a hoped-for narrative without knowing that it's 100% accurate or not. We don't have to know with complete certainty that oh, here's what it is, here's the program for death, I read it somewhere or somebody told me this is what it is, or this is my sense of it. It's okay to keep the faith, to have it be a gesture of faith, to believe whatever we believe in our heart is true. Lastly, it's also just fine to have faith in a divine truth without apology or justification. We can do that while respecting and honoring the rights of other people who have different views or different religion or different spiritual path that they're on and a different view of things. Those are the things that I believe we can do to cultivate a courageous attitude towards living and to face down the fear of death. Dr. Bob: That's beautiful, so really this is universal. I mean, it's regarding any fear or anything that might be challenging us or limiting us in our life, not specifically around a fear of death, but that seems to be a big one for a lot of people, right? Dr. Ken Druck: Yeah. You know, Bob. We've got these brilliant emotional systems. They're as sophisticated if not more so in some ways than all the other systems that sustain life. We have this emotional system, which gives us internal signals, radar signals, from inside of ourselves, right inside of our hearts, showing up as our emotions. When these feelings turn up, it's our job to learn how to manage them, to decipher them, to decode them, to understand them, and to utilize them as part of our radar, as part of our self management, and to use them to our advantage rather than oh, that's a negative feeling, I better shoot it. That's negative. We've been brainwashed into believing that there are negative feelings rather than understanding that some feelings that bubble up and surface are going to be sorrow, fear, anxiety, worry, frustration, that we need to read these feelings, not become prisoners to them, but to read them and to have them inform us about what action to take, to inform us that it's time to vent those feelings. We're not built to hold them in steel compartments inside of our bodies, but to vent them in a healthy and constructive way and to turn those feelings into something good. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I think that's powerful. I think people need to be given permission to feel, right? My sense is that so many people when they start to feel something that might be uncomfortable for them, and this is a pattern that develops over time, they feel something, they don't how to navigate that, they don't know how to manage it, and so they just choose not to feel it. They turn away from it. Dr. Ken Druck: They become flooded. Exactly. They become emotionally flooded. This is particularly true of us as guys. We learned at a very early age basic training as a male shows us that to feel is to fail. If you're feeling something unless it's anger because anger is a good. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that's acceptable. Dr. Ken Druck: If you're feeling something, it means you're not handling it, you're weak, you're dependent, you're less of a man. You're less of a guy if you're feeling something because sensitivity and emotionality are perceived as signs of weakness. We got to fess up. We got to suck it up and deal with those feelings. We shouldn't be feeling those things. We become self-denying, self-rejecting creatures. We push our feelings away to the point that we lose our radar. We lose contact with our own radar. When somebody says, "Hey, what are you feeling?" We don't know what they're talking about. What are you feeling? You mean, what am I thinking? No, what are you feeling? How is this working for you? You just got a diagnosis, a bad diagnosis. How are you doing with that? When it comes to some of the most challenging moments, the moments of truth in life, relationships and our health and how long we're going to be here in our living and dying process, those emotions are what gets us through. Those emotions are the very tools and knowing them, reading them, and processing those emotions keeps us alive every moment of whatever time we have rather than us beginning to die emotionally long before our time and disconnect from those people we love. Dr. Bob: Yes. I get it. I think most people who hear this will resonate to some degree with that but obviously, it's not easy, right? Dr. Ken Druck: No, not to summon courage. Just like every other work ethic, everything else, there are times that all of us can look back and count that we summoned more courage, newfound courage to face into becoming a mom or dad, face into taking a job or starting a career or going to college or, even as parents, letting our kids go to kindergarten or sending them off to college. We had to summon courage. We have to summon even greater courage to face into some of the fears and some of the issues that arise naturally in the second half of life, including facing into our own impermanence, the fact that life is a package deal, we don't get to live forever, at least not in this form, and we have to deal with that. How we summon that courage is clear. We do it the same way we've done it before. We face something. We talk openly about it. We air out. We don't try to do it all at once. We strengthen ourselves. We get ourselves into game shape and improve the condition we're in, our mental toughness by doing this, by talking about it, by taking moments of reflection, by summoning all of our abilities to comprehend, to surrender, to let go, and to arrive in the season of life that we're presently living rather than dragging the past around and regrets, remorse, unforgiveness, harsh criticism. Rather than dragging, we have to learn how to let that go. There's a whole university and school of thought about how to summon greater courage because it is a process that occurs over time that we can all plug into, and it's going to be different for every one of us. Dr. Bob: I feel like there's so much incredible value in what you've shared so far. I want to encourage people, the listeners, to go back and listen again. There's no way that anybody will be able to take in what's been shared here in one listen. I really especially, well, the whole thing—but I'd also like to kind of summarize because I think it's so critical. There are so many people who find themselves in this space of despair, of feeling like they can't climb out of that place, it's dark, it's pulling them in, and they don't know how they're going to do that, and to give them those tools to help people understand that even if they can't look at their own experience in the times when they've found the courage to look at others around them, to see that yes, people have been in this space before, and they have found a way out. I think that looking at the whole of human experience and finding examples of people in your own community or that can inspire you. Obviously, if you can find your own inner kind of compass and go back and identify those times of your own life, you'll hopefully connect with that. I see people who have just lost somebody or they're dealing with these terrible challenges from an illness or an injury, and they say, "I can't do this. I don't have the strength. I'm not going to make it. I can't get through this." I help them see, if possible, other people have done this. This experience is an experience that people have had for thousands or tens of thousands of years, and people get through it. It's not easy, it doesn't happen immediately, but you are part of this human race. You have the same inner strength and capacity as anybody else, but I want- Dr. Ken Druck: I like what you're saying. I want to add to that. Dr. Bob: Yeah, please. Dr. Ken Druck: Asking for help. Help is the least utilized four-letter word in the English language. Asking for help. When I think about all the people that I know that I've sent to you for help, you have been an inspiration. Sometimes we can't do this alone. It's okay to ask for help, to call in support, asking others how they did it, whether that's reading... I mean, I wrote the Courageous Aging book so that people would have something to refer to be able to see how others have done it, how other people have tried to run from some of these things and fail, and how other people have courageously learned to face into whatever they were dealing with. So reading a book, reading articles. I think also seeking inspiration. There's music that I play every day because without words it inspires me. It's music that comes from a source of inspiration that's coming through a great composer, so I listen to music. There are all kinds of ways of nourishing ourselves, whether it's music or great food or walking in nature. I think what you said before about remembering the past seasons of our lives where we had great courage and remembering I can do this, look what I did. I can do this. Lastly, it's surrendering at times. There are times where we're standing in a moment of inescapable sorrow or facing into unknowingness or feeling emptiness. Those are moments where it's okay to surrender into tears. It's okay to surrender to feelings of helplessness and powerlessness. Also, that surrender sometimes takes us into a sense of what's beyond this life— of what I call the great beyond, the enormity, to have a sense that we are joining. Wherever my daughter is, I'm going to be with her. Wherever she is or isn't, I'm going to be there. Wherever my ancestors, those who have gone before me are. And with those feelings, it's not only to make peace with ourselves, but it's to free up the next and final phase of our lives, which is paying it forward, paying the gratitude for the blessing that we've had, being given this life, being able to experience all the things that we sometimes take for granted. Being able to give our gratitude by paying it forward, planting a tree that we won't necessarily ever get to sit in the shade of, but that our children, our grandchildren, and future generations will be able to sit in the shade of that giving tree. That is one of the most important aspects of making peace and understanding that it's okay. Yes, it's scary. Yes, it's terrifying at times. Yes, it requires courage that I haven't had to summon before, but that I can do this, and I will go forward. This is the nature and the way of life. I don't get to play God, I don't get to live forever in the way that I know, and I surrender to it. Dr. Bob: It's no wonder why you are being asked to come and be with people who are experiencing tragic loss. You have such a gift of sharing that perspective, sharing the understanding of one who's been there and who has learned how to navigate it. I know that you would be the first person to admit that you're not finished with your growth and working through your sorrow that will never end, right? Dr. Ken Druck: It's okay. You know what, Bob, a mom once said it to me—she had lost her only son— and she told me after a couple of years I hadn't seen her. She said, "Ken, the most important thing I've learned is that it's okay that it's not okay." She said, "It's not okay. I reject the idea that my son had to die so young, that he didn't get to live out his life the way we had all planned. That was my dream, that was what I had put my heart and soul into. That was my future as well, and it's been lost to him. His life has been lost to him and to me and his father." She said, "But I've learned over time that it's okay that it's not okay. Some things in life aren't okay. I'm never going to accept that history as good." It sucked is what she said. "It just sucks that this is the way it is. This is the way it turned out. This is the way history will write it." She said, "But I also have found peace that this is the way of life. I'm not the only one who's suffered a loss of a child way before their time and had to face into the challenge of living out the rest of my life as an expression of love rather than despair. I accept that challenge and I've faced into it, and I'm learning how to live forward in my life and to make my life an expression of the love that never dies rather than to despair over the fact that my son died young." Dr. Bob: Conceptually it's powerful, but really in practicality, it is as well. I'm around, as you are as well, a lot of people who are anticipating an upcoming loss of a loved one or who have experienced the loss of a loved one. I think one of the most powerful and valuable ways for them to go forward is with the understanding that their loved one, their son, their daughter, their brother, sister, wife, husband, father, that they would never want that person, those loved ones who are left behind, to hold back, to be held back because of that loss. It's honoring those who have gone by living your life as completely, fully, forcefully, intentionally as possible. Dr. Ken Druck: Exactly. You and I talked about it, and I have my code of honor, my five honorings, and that is the core of those five honorings—that we somehow summon the courage to go on with our lives, to write new chapters of life even though they will not be here to write those chapters with us, that we're going to go ahead and we're going to live forward. We're going to go on, and we're going to make the rest of our days meaningful and purposeful, and we're going to keep our love alive by doing one of the other honorings, which is to create a spiritual relationship with them. What I mean by spiritual is that it's the unseen, unknown conversation we have purely out of faith. When I tell my daughter, Jenna, I love her every day, do I know that I'm connecting with her? No, but it's an act of faith. I'm not going to let that love go unexpressed. When I feel she is close and she's loving me and something wonderful has happened and she's celebrating with me, am I going to deny that arrogantly? You know, I know what life is, I know what death is. She's gone. That's not really her. I'm a delusional father. No. I'm going to allow that love to flow to me. The five honorings are writing new chapters of life; creating a spiritual relationship with them even though it's not what we signed up for. Survival, our own survival, is an honoring, finding a way to get to the next breath even though at times we are so lost and feel so empty and so sad; then embodying some element of their spirit that will live on with us. It could be their kindness, their sense of humor, something they loved. Whatever it is, embodying that and becoming more of that as we grow up and as we grow older. Lastly, it really has to do with how we treat other people, that we treat those people in our lives as an expression of our love because many families unravel at the time of loss. We're so raw, the emotions are so raw. After 9/11 we instituted a program that had to do with the way we treated one another and was an expression of our love for the person we lost, and it was called Take the High Road. Taking the high road, even though there's that rawness of emotion in our families and people want to resort to blame or who loved who or who did what. To step outside of that. Let it go, be forgiving, be patient, be kind to one another in that moment of rawness, and treat our families as an expression of love to the person we're either losing or have lost. Dr. Bob: I love it. Those are awesome, the honorings. For somebody who wants to read more about those five honorings, where would they find that? Dr. Ken Druck: They'd go right to my website. It's www.kendruck.com. They can go onto my Dr. Ken Druck Facebook page. That's facebook.com/kendruck. I welcome a phone call in our offices in Del Mar and San Diego. Any way I can be of help, I'm honored and privileged to be able to continue working with you on teams. You and I find our way to helping families together, and I'm always honored to be of assistance to families that you're working with that, frankly, would be lost without you as a lifeline. I'm so glad that we've had a chance to have this conversation to be able to share it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I am too as well. Again, we touched on some really poignant and important topics and kind of scratched the surface a little bit. I think there were some really great highlights. Again, I think people will benefit from re-listening to this and having it be available. Your website has a wealth of information and support. Before we get off, I want to ask just briefly about your new book because I know that it's been taking up an enormous amount of your time, getting the book out, getting the book promoted, getting it into people's hands, letting people know about it. It's phenomenal. It's called Courageous Aging. I just want you to share a bit about the inspiration for putting this book together and just give a few of the highlights if you could. Dr. Ken Druck: Yeah, Bob. The Courageous Aging book wrote me. This season in my life, all the issues, all the challenges that come up as we get older, especially when we wake up and we realize that we've been sold a bill of goods, myths, and misconceptions about getting older and that many of our imaginings of our future are really saturated with dread and fear and cultural biases. We look at other cultures around the world. In India, when you turn 60, you're just waking up. Life is just beginning. For us, you turn 60 and you're on the back nine of life. Your life is over. You're supposed to retire and become irrelevant. Yet I'm at age 68. I've entered the most creative phase of my life. I've never been more creative. I'm writing books, I'm writing articles, I'm speaking. My work with people has never been better, more focused, more loving, more caring and compassionate. I decided that, as I have in other seasons of life, that the best way for me to learn was to ride the horse in the direction it was going and to write. My meditation is writing, and I write myself into greater awareness. I also share the awarenesses that I'm coming across, and then I'm learning from other people. Courageous Aging is really a formula for aging positively, successfully, in a robust way and reimagining our best possible future and creating a critical path so that we can realize that future. Every chapter deals with a different element and challenge of aging. The first chapters are a self-audit where you could actually test yourself. How am I doing on getting older? Where are my hot spots? Where am I struggling? Where am I doing great and soaring? We can take inventory because everything good starts with a little self-reflection. I think once we've taken inventory we can begin to focus and fashion our course to have our best possible future, and every chapter deals with a different element of what it takes to create that best possible future. Dr. Bob: Timing is amazing, right? I mean, there's so many of us who are moving into this space, this space of, I guess, aging and trying to figure out what does the future hold. How do I continue to find value, having meaning? Like you said, I'm not ready to hang it up and just start golfing and rocking on my rocking chair. I think that Dr. Ken Druck: By the way, you know who I'm getting feedback from? I'm getting feedback from 40-year-olds who read the book, 50-year-olds. We think of aging as an issue for people past 60, 65. The aging angst and biases infect people who are turning 30. They're dreading, "Oh my god! I'm turning 30." The dread of getting older and the invitation to lose our vitality, our passion, our energy, and to kind of shut it down is there at every turn, at every turn of life and every changing season. It's no different for those of us turning 70 in some ways than it is for those of us turning 50. We all have to face it and really take charge of creating the future that we want rather than buying into the cultural norm, which is being sent out to pasture or having to give up things we love. Dr. Bob: I love it, and I would imagine that it wouldn't need a whole lot of modification to be really appropriate for and valuable for people who are 20, right? Dr. Ken Druck: It really isn't because you're going to be changing seasons. Dr. Bob: All the time. Dr. Ken Druck: ...and how you do that and how you go about that should be dictated on the basis of how you feel, not what somebody else tells you that you should feel or do. We all need to set our own course, and we change. That's okay. It's okay to grieve the younger version of yourself. That's all right. It's okay. Grieve it and then move forward because this new season, you're going to miss it if you're so obsessed with what you lost and what's past. You're going to miss the opportunity of this new season of life. Even if it's towards the end of your life, don't miss out on the best part of your life. It may be that the coming weeks, months, and years of your life, if you're given that, are going to be the best ones ever, so show up for it, be there, let go of the past, grieve the past self, and embrace what's right under your nose, what's right here now. Dr. Bob: How do people get a copy of the book? Dr. Ken Druck: They can go on amazon.com, they can go to their favorite bookstore and order it, amazon.com. If you have a Kindle or something, you can download it for, I think, 7 or 8 dollars right away, or they'll get it to your house in a day or two on amazon.com and, of course, it's available in the bookstores. If you have any trouble getting a hold of the book, just contact our offices or go to our website. You can order it directly from our website too at kendruck.com. Dr. Bob: All right, my friend. Well, I think for this podcast, we have moved past the time that I was anticipating, not surprisingly. We will Dr. Bob: Yeah. If you're open to it, Ken, I'd love to have you back another time to Dr. Ken Druck: Always an honor, Bob. Always an honor to talk with you and work with you. Dr. Bob: And you as well, my friend. I just want to share that I find you so refreshing. You are a brilliant, loving, compassionate servant of mankind. I'm inspired and humbled by the work that you're doing and by having you in my life. I want you to know that. Dr. Ken Druck: Bless you. The feeling is completely mutual. I thank you so much. I'm learning how to receive. That's one of my goals in this point of life is to open my heart, touch my heart, and learn how to receive. What's you've just given me is beautiful. I'm going to take that in and savor it today. Dr. Bob: All right. Beautiful, my friend. Love you. Thank you for being part of my life and thank you for sharing all this beautiful insight for our listeners. Dr. Ken Druck: Thank you. Love you too, my brother.

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Peaceful Deaths for People & Pets, Liz Fernandez, DVM Ep. 26

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 31, 2018 33:46

Hear beautiful stories about end of life. Dr. Bob and Veterinarian, Liz Fernandez, discuss how there are similarities in their end-of-life work that helps people, pets, and families who are dealing with end-of-life issues. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Liz Fernandez website Dr. Bob: Liz Fernandez is a doctor who makes house calls. She gets to know her patients and families intimately, and she frequently provides counsel and guidance as her patients head toward the natural end of their lives. In many circumstances, she lovingly administers medication through an IV that allows her patients to fall asleep and die peacefully usually in the arms of their loved ones. What Dr. Fernandez does is legal and acceptable because she's a doctor of veterinarian medicine and her patients are mostly dogs and cats. Although I don't perform euthanasia which is illegal in this country, I am with many patients as they die peacefully after self-ingesting medication that allows them to have a quick and peaceful death. In many respects, Dr. Fernandez's practice is very similar to mine. We both drive all over the place to make house calls, we both develop very intimate relationships with our patients and families, and we both help to guide and counsel as our patients approach the natural end of their lives. In this episode, we share some of the beautiful and some of the challenging experiences that we've had, and we discuss how it affects us to be in these emotionally complex circumstances so often. I hope you find it interesting, informative, and meaningful in some way. Liz, thanks for coming on the show, and I'm looking forward to having you share some of your insights from your really fascinating career. Can you just share with me a little bit what is it like? You have a unique model of practice for a vet, and what's a typical day or typical few days for you? Liz Fernandez: I practice in Ventura County. I work with small animals, and I do house calls, and most of what I do is Chinese medicine acupuncture, so most of my clients, my patients are older. I may see anywhere between three to six patients a day, and I drive all over the county. Sometimes I keep it localized in a smaller area, but my radius is about 60 miles from my house so it could be anywhere in that to give you an idea. Yes, I drive about 30,000 miles a year- Dr. Bob: Which is kind of similar to me. It sounds like your work is in many ways similar to mine; going out and meeting with older patients and addressing the concerns that they and their families have and supporting them. Liz Fernandez: Right, and so I have ... Since I see them ... I see them. I'll spend an hour or so. Each appointment is about an hour unless it's an initial appointment and it's usually about two hours. I may be seeing them once a week, or once every other week, or once a month, so I get to know the clients quite well and as their animals, either dogs or cats, for the most part, start to age and get near to that point when they're going to have to make some decision, we've already had probably at least a few discussions if not more; just some in general and some more specific. It's nice because I do have that connection already with most of the clients that I work with, and that makes it a lot easier to move into that idea of now we may not be trying to get them better, we're just trying to keep them comfortable. Dr. Bob: Got it. So you have the conversations ideally upstream about what will happen when things change, and you're looking now at a comfort-focused end of life scenario. It's interesting because you have an option to help create a very peaceful end of life for your patients that we don't necessarily have. Not necessarily have, we don't have. We don't have euthanasia. It's not legal; it's not available. Fortunately in California now we do have the medical aid in dying through the end of life option app, so there is another conversation that can happen when people are open to it, but everybody is aware that euthanasia is a viable and acceptable option at the end of an animal's life. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, and I find it fascinating because with the animals, we almost more often than not, people demand it for a multitude of reasons; the most common being, "I don't want my pet to suffer." That I totally understand and I agree with, and I support them in those decisions. It's just fascinating that ... And part of it I guess is with people we have more options in terms of supportive care to keep people comfortable and just have somebody there 24/7. That's pretty very challenging for most people. I have had clients that have the ability to have somebody with their pet 24/7 offer doing whatever it is that they need to have done in a home situation. It's not like they're putting him in the hospital or something and not being with them, it's just that they can manage all of those little things like if they can't get up from by themselves that somebody can take them and help them to get up and go outside and if they're not continent then they can take care of that in terms of changing the bedding and that sort of thing in helping them. But that's not the norm. For most people, it's just not an option. What do you do if you can't be there or if don't know someone who can be there or afford to pay someone to be there, what do you do? This other option is available especially when there's no hope of improvement. And so that's what happens. Dr. Bob: It's interesting to think about those scenarios because it's just natural to make the comparisons, right? This is between people and animals, and if you have a person who needs care to manage their ADLs because they can't get up by themselves, they can't clean themselves. That's not enough to justify having their life end. For some people, it may be that the complexities of creating care- Liz Fernandez: The other part of that is that a lot of times, it's emotional least distressful for the clients because they realize their own limitations whether that be physical, emotional, financial. All of those things factor in, and so they wind up making a decision because not that they think it's what is necessary that the animal is that near to death that that's what is appropriate, but because the entire situation is such that they can't handle it. If you have an 85-year-old woman who's got 100-pound dog and she doesn't have anybody else to help or take care of it, she may be healthy within herself, but to be able to meet all the needs of a big dog- Dr. Bob: That's dangerous. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, it's dangerous. Or even somebody who's 50, but they have a bad back. Dr. Bob: That part like knowing that the dog is not or the animal is not necessarily imminent, that close to death, or maybe it's not even suffering that much, right? It may not be in pain, it may just have these limitations, and if the family was able to meet those needs even though the dog is not living its ideal life like a human being who's 90- Liz Fernandez: Right. A lot of people feel like if they can't get up if they can't do those things, that they are suffering, that it is not a life that they would want, so there is that. I would say that with most of my clients they do a really good job of trying to make things work, but on the other hand, most of them have co-morbidities that are ... Like if their back legs aren't working anymore, there's a good chance that they probably have some other issues going on whether that be kidney disease or sometimes some underlying, whether it's cancer or heart disease or other things that make it even more challenging. I honestly can say that I don't find myself in situations where I feel that it's inappropriate. Dr. Bob: Well, imagine if you did then you would find other solution. Liz Fernandez: Exactly. I mean, we each have to do what we feel in our heart is right or for us, but I also try and tell people that there's not necessarily an objective right or wrong. There's a right or wrong for you in this moment, but not necessarily a right or wrong that is somewhere posted in a book somewhere that says that this is the way you have to proceed. Because we have to be honest and compassionate with ourselves as well as in the whole situation. Dr. Bob: Well, I read your book Sacred Gifts of a Short Life: Uncovering the Wisdom of Our Pets End of Life Journeys, and it's really touching, it's really well done and smart. Liz Fernandez: Thank you. Dr. Bob: It was great stories and as I'm reading it, I so often I'm finding corollaries to my life and my practice and my thought processes. One of the things that was really poignant for me is your ... One of the stories, I think it comes up a number of times when people ask how they'll know when it's the right time. For me being a physician who assists some patients through medical aid in dying, there are times when people get a prescription for a life-ending medication, and one of the big questions that they have and that their families have is when will I know it's time? When will I know that it's the time to take this? What their experience or if they're struggling to go through is what your families are dealing with. The difference, I guess the difference in my situation with human beings is that they're the ones making these decisions for themselves, no one can make it for them. And they recognize that when they do take this medication, they may be robbing themselves or ... They're clearly shortening their life, but they may be robbing themselves of some relatively reasonable time, and they don't know. There's no way to absolutely predict what the future is going to hold and sometimes they'll be inclined to take the medication sooner because they're afraid that things will change and they'll lose their ability. They'll lose their mental ability, the physical ability, so there's this back and forth dialogue they have with themselves and questioning. Almost every single time, I've told them, "You'll know when it's time. No one's going to tell you it's time. You're going to know, and when you know it, you know it. There's been a couple of people out of the many dozen who I have been with who have still been slightly, slightly, hesitant, reluctant questioning it and even to the last hours. What I recognize is those people are the ones who have younger children. No matter what they do, separating any moment sooner than they absolutely have to is a challenge. Those are the ones that tend to be a struggle. But like you said, they know when it's time, sounds like your families come to a place where they just know now is the time. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, and I have definitely tried to work with people and something that I do talk about in the book as far as just ... Because even in our profession we have a tendency to, and as a profession, this is so, and I have tried to steer away from this, but we're the ones that like to tell people when it's time, and people like us to tell them oftentimes. What I have found throughout my career is that if there is not complete 100% choice that's made by the person who's involved with the pet, then they sometimes feel guilty, feel pushed, feel resentful that someone else told them that they needed to do something when they weren't ready. I try to avoid that and make sure that they are comfortable and that they are listening to that place within themselves that we each have that I think it's so important not just to listen in this situation but throughout our lives, that we start listening to that, that we begin to trust it, and then we can act on it. This is a situation that really invites us to do this in a wholehearted way, and if we have practice doing that throughout our lives, it becomes much easier. What I ask people to do is to try and get very quiet and feel into their body and have someone else perhaps even present with them and feel into their body with the idea that, "I'm going to euthanize my pet today," and then just feel what happens to them. The person who's with them can watch whether there's a tenseness that happens, whether there's a clenching or a contraction, or if there's a relaxation and opening up because the body is reacting to the deepest truth. I think that can be very helpful. I had had a couple of situations where I've been with somebody as we move through that process and I've reflected to them what I have seen, and in one situation I said when you get your poll body relaxed when you thought about just going ahead and letting Sophie go today. Then we talked a little bit longer because it didn't seem like she was ready to go ahead with that. But what I told her and what we talked about was that it really was okay that she felt that way. That it was getting really challenging and very difficult to take care of her. When she actually accepted the idea, so her body was just asking, inviting her to become okay with that as a possibility, and recognizing it and forgiving herself for having that feeling, for feeling like I can't do this another day. And yet there were some things that we could try, and we wound up trying them. And then would about two weeks later, things have deteriorated further, and she was very clear, and she had no question. But what her body actually was doing when she relaxed was not saying that it needed to happen today as much as it was saying that she needed to accept that as a possibility and that it was okay that she felt the way she did. Once she became okay with this feeling that, "I can't do it anymore," she actually found the strength to be able to go on a little longer. But he had to accept that within himself first. Very interesting. And the opposite happened. Both of these situations happened within probably two or three months of each other, and the other situation was that the lady just did not want to euthanize her pet. And she knew. I mean, there were all sorts of signs from the universe, and from her husband, and her husband had a dream, and all of these different things and she just knew, and he was really not doing well, but she just couldn't let go. I said to her because again when we went through the process, not doing it is what gave her the most relaxation in her body. And I said, okay. Consciously and in her brain, I said, "Be okay with that. It's okay that you can't do it today. Because sooner or later if you don't do it for him, he's going to do it himself." And he's not really suffering; he was just in a point of not really eating anymore, but just not moving. You know what I mean? He wasn't in any kind of excruciating pain that we needed to address or anything. And once she could finally just say to herself that it was okay, she could forgive yourself for not being able to do what she really felt was the best interest of her pet. Because she just loved him so much and just, it's like ... When she completely surrendered to that, she sat with him for a few minutes and then she said, "Let's go ahead." Dr. Bob: It's beautiful. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, it's quite fascinating, but again if you start to listen deeply and can accept whatever happens or whatever wants to happen and trust it, then I think that we do have the answers within ourselves to make these difficult decisions. Dr. Bob: Actually I appreciate that you shared that. Because on a couple of levels, I think what you're sharing is so vitally important. On the one hand, I think that's what we need. Everybody needs ... Moving to the human realm, we all need to be able to go deep inside and become comfortable with the idea that one day we're going to die. Liz Fernandez: Yes, just have a good relationship with death. Dr. Bob: Yes. And not to say, "Okay, I'm ready to die." Not to say that I've got everything prepared or that emotionally, financially, legally, or whatever. But to just understand and feel this sense of acceptance and a sense of calm about it, and if you can't get there, then the work needs to revolve around figuring out why what is it that's keeping you from feeling that sense of acceptance or calm about it. But once you can get there, then everything is a bit easier, I think it's brighter, a little bit more ... It's almost like it's bonus time. Now I've accepted this; there's my ultimate endpoint, now let's get on with life. Liz Fernandez: Right. Part of why I wrote the book was not only just for clients, but for practitioners and then just the general public. Because the whole idea is what my book tries to talk about and what I'm passionate about is just that. It's the idea of having a relationship with death that makes it less scary. Be able to embrace it, to dance with it, to recognize it everywhere. Things are dying all the time. We push it away so much we deny even the idea. No one wants to say the word. It becomes this big scary boogeyman and the big monster under the bed. Dr. Bob: It does not have to be that way. Liz Fernandez: That's a cultural thing. It's like can we just start just have a keep the conversation going. Dr. Bob: And I think we are. I mean, that's part of what we're doing, right? That's why we have this ... That's why I have a life and death conversation. There are people like us who are not only comfortable talking about it but shine when we're talking about it. Because it's like being part of a club where you understand where this is coming from, where this conversation comes from. Not because we're morbid or want to talk about dying or don't love life, it's because we do love life. And we love life enough to say, "And one day this is going to end." And that's going to be okay too because that's We can maybe by doing this, by having these conversations and people listen to it and they think, "Wow, that's an interesting way of looking at it." Liz Fernandez: Broadening the perspectives because there is a sacredness to it. There is this deep sense of ... I mean, it pulls us into silence. I had the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to speak to a group of high school students who are interested in veterinarian medicine, and this is the topic we talked about. We talked about ... I just described the state that one gets into when one watches a sunset, and you're just completely present. That's kind of what meditation is, but it's also what happens when we are communing with death if you will. I mean, if we're present with someone who's dying, and that silence, it's just so full. There's so much life and love there. Dr. Bob: And sadness, right? There's loss, there's all of it, but it's the whole continuum. Liz Fernandez: It's all of it, exactly. And that's the other thing that I try and really focus on. It's the idea that it's not either or. You don't have to deny anything. You don't have to deny that you feel devastated or just horrible for whatever the experience is, and at the same time at some point, everyone who's ever gone through a grieving process knows that there is this ... All of a sudden flash will get in your head, and you'll start smiling and laughing when you're thinking of this person who you miss so dearly. You're feeling it all. That's what I mean I think it's important. That we allow ourselves to feel all of that. It's like clouds. They come, and they go, and your feelings and your emotions are going to be all over the map as part of the grieving process. One of the [inaudible 00:26:09], a friend of mine recently who passed away. She was very aware, and she lived so fully. I have another client whose dog is ... They called me a month ago thinking it was time and it's not yet, and they're just kind of writing with it. The idea to be able to live fully knowing very clearly because you have a terminal diagnosis, that your time is very limited, is ... I've seen only either in animals because they don't get all hung up, but in people, those that have really, really accepted the idea, they're older, and they can live like you said, very fully because of that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. For me that's a big part of my mission, and it sounds like of yours, is to create this comfort to allow the loved ones who are part of this experience to have it be as peaceful and potentially transformative as possible, so they can go on the rest of their lives feeling a sense of peace about it, feeling a sense that they did everything right, that they did the best possible in support of their loved one. Yes, it's important to make it comfortable for the person who's dying and to reduce the fear and to reduce the struggle, but so much the loved ones go on for years or decades having to carry that experience with them. It's a beautiful experience if it has been well explained and accepted, and the processing has been allowed to happen, it can be amazing what it opens up for them or allows them to experience. Which is why it's so it's so unfortunate and challenging one when people die suddenly. Or animals when death happens suddenly, and people haven't been able to prepare. You know what my solution for that is? Always be prepared. I think about that. I was in [inaudible 00:28:38] for 20 plus years. From early on in my career and in my adulthood, it became very clear to me how quickly things could change, how random things were, and so I guess I got comfortable with this idea that I could be just removed from life instantly or traumatized. I made a very conscious decision to tell people what I wanted them to know. To not leave things hanging. I'm almost to the point where my kids when I would leave the house they, "I know dad, I know you love me. I know. Okay." We have to hug again, and ... Liz Fernandez: They say when they're 13, right? Dr. Bob: Yeah, but I don't care. This is my thing. Liz Fernandez: They will appreciate it. Dr. Bob: Let's hope so. Liz Fernandez: No, I absolutely agree. That is hard when people leave us suddenly. It is wise to be really authentic in your feelings and leave things ... What makes your people know. I have always done the same. It's like, is there anything I need to say to anybody that I know? I try and do that. Dr. Bob: Well, who knows. Maybe this is just a reminder for somebody just to do it a little bit more. I feel like people who ... Well, anyone who has a pet certainly, or anybody who is interested in exploring the experiences in the mind and insights of someone like you who's around death on a daily bases would benefit from getting a hold of your book. We'll put a link to the book on our website, which is integratedmdcare.com. Once this episode airs, then it will be available. I thought it was wonderful. I gained a lot of insights out of it. I'm sure many other people have as well. Liz Fernandez: Well, great. I am so pleased to hear that and thank you for offering to put it on the website. Dr. Bob: Well, Liz, thank you again for taking the time out of your day. Liz Fernandez: And thank you. I really appreciate it. All right. Dr. Bob: All right. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.

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Where You Can Go To Deal With Death, Bill Palmer Ep. 23

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 20, 2018 34:02

Bill Palmer has dedicated much of his life to helping people get comfortable with death. Hear why he has hosted more than 75 Death Cafes and what he's learned from them and the people who attend. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Death Cafe website Transcript Dr. Bob: My guest on today's podcast has been on a really interesting journey over the past several years. Bill Palmer is a successful executive coach and management consultant who lives in Oakland, California. After a personal experience with a loved one who died while being supported by an excellent hospice organization, Bill was inspired to come home to Oakland and start volunteering with other people on hospice. And then he began hosting Death Cafes. To date, Bill's hosted over 75 Death Cafes for members of his community up in Oakland. If you're not familiar with Death Cafes, you will be after listening to this very informative podcast. Bill has had incredible insights through many, many hours spent with hundreds of people openly discussing death and dying. From the very practical aspects to the emotional and spiritual issues. On this podcast, he shares some of the insights that he's gained with us. I believe this can help you become more comfortable having those meaningful and really important conversations that you should be having with your loved ones and with yourself. I hope you're as grateful for these insights and reminders as I was, as I was speaking to them. Bill, thank you so much for being willing to spend some time with us and share a bit of your experience and knowledge with the listeners. Bill Palmer: Sure you're welcome. Dr. Bob: You have an interesting life, I'm assuming. For some reason, you have chosen to dedicate yourself to helping people get more comfortable talking about death. How did that come about? What was the ... My understanding is that you're a business coach and that you're coaching people through different aspects of business and leadership. How do you become a Death Cafe leader from that place? What was your journey? Bill Palmer: The journey really started actually, quite a few years ago when my mother was admitted as a hospice patient in Florida. She received incredibly good care at the Hospice of Palm Beach County where she lived at the time. As a business coach, and as an organizational development consultant, I was struck mostly by the wonderful care that she and my family received, but I was also struck by the incredible business alignment and sense of higher purpose in that hospice. At the time, I thought it was unique. And since then I volunteered in several different hospices. I found that to be more the rule than the exception. Somehow, rather, and I don't recall exactly how I came across a guy named John Underwood who lived in London, and who was the founder of Death Café. It just seemed like a great idea to me at the time. I became a hospice volunteer because I wanted to give something back. It didn't especially require any special skill to be a hospice volunteer. Sometimes just sitting with somebody, visiting, doing a respite visit something like that. But Death Cafe appealed to me because I could bring to bear some of the skills that I feel I have in terms of leading groups and speaking with individuals in an open and honest and kind of free, willing environment. So, I decided I would take John's advice and example and do a Death Café, which is actually pretty easy to do. Dr. Bob: You have the model, right? He shared the model with you and ... From my understanding ... Tell us what a Death Cafe for people who don't really understand it. Bill Palmer: Well, first of all, there's a website called www.deathcafe.com, and it gives a full explanation not only of what a Death Cafe is but how to start one if you want to in your own community. A Death Cafe is simply a free and open ... Free meaning there's no fee to attend, a group meeting of people, whoever wants to come, who want to talk about any aspect of death that interests them. That could be anything from where do I get a will to, deep philosophical and religious concerns to, what are the regulations about scattering ashes to, my companion died 40 years ago and I'm still grieving to, my spouse died last week and I feel nothing. There's an incredible richness of experience and this is going to sound really strange, but they're actually fun. There's a lot of laughter in a Death Cafe. Some of that laughter is just nervousness about speaking about a taboo subject, but some of it is just appreciation of life. If I could make one generalization about the Death Cafes, people leave feeling strongly that what they're doing in their lives right now, whether they're close to death or whether they feel like they're very far away, takes on an added significance if they can find a way to accept the fact that we're all going to die. One thing that surprised me about the 75 Death Cafes I've led is the number of people who apparently, intelligent, responsible, normal people who actually don't really think they're going to die. Dr. Bob: They certainly act like that, right? Bill Palmer: Yeah. Like I said, responsible, taxpaying, voting, civic-minded people who don't have a will, who don't have an advanced care directive, who've never discussed their wishes for their care towards the end of their lives. It is just an indication of the power of the taboo that people who in most every other aspect of their lives behave quite responsibly. But in this one area, even after they see and hear about the chaos that ensues if you die without a will, if you die without an advanced care directive, if you die or become disabled, even after they hear stories about that, it doesn't seem to get them. Dr. Bob: Do you think that people are denying that they're going to die or that they just think somehow things are going to work out? They just don't want to ... They don't feel like they need to do the preparation because things just have a way of working out? Bill Palmer: Well, I guess on an intellectual level, of course, they know they're going to die. But I think on some kind of emotional level, like a child, they don't really believe it. But I think it's probably a little bit of both, is just if you've never sat down and filled out an advance care directives, and you're using a good one, I'd ask some pretty tough questions. For example, if you don't really know what resuscitation is like, you might think sure, resuscitate me. And if you find out what resuscitation is actually really like in many cases, you might decide something very different. Dr. Bob: Right, in most cases. I think people, they watch TV shows, they watch ER or St. Elsewhere, these shows that depict somebody having a cardiac arrest. They do a couple of things and then a few seconds later they sit up and everyone's relieved, and it doesn't depict the absolute horror that ensues when somebody's doing chest compressions and ribs are breaking, and there's virtually no chance of survival in the vast majority of cases. So, yeah, are those kinds of things discussed even at that kind of graphic level? Are people open to hearing those kinds of things when they show up for the Death Cafes? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I think so. Anyone who leads a Death Cafe, including myself, leads it with a very light touch. There's no schedule of activities. There are no small groups. There are no icebreakers or anything like that. It's just open conversation. If somebody brings that up, people listen, and I think people are affected by it. There is a great deal of information that gets shared. A common statement is, my family won't discuss my death with me. I will or someone else in the group will say, "Well, here are some great resources." The conversation project, for example, can give you some tips and guidelines and do's and don'ts for, how do you have this conversation with people that don't want to talk about it? It's not an easy thing. So, I think there's that and there's a sense of comfort and community and that people find out well, gosh, I'm not alone in this. Other people feel this way too, or are afraid of the same thing, or have had a similar experience. I think it's comforting to people. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Oh, it's rich, and like you say, it's a safe space. Interestingly, I haven't been to one for a bit, but when I went to a few Death Cafes here in San Diego, and they did break up into small groups like four people and then there were some sample questions to stimulate conversation. There was a little bit of discussion as a group. I think as I remember, representatives from the small groups talked about some of the insights that came out. But I felt like there were so many people in the room, there were maybe 50 to 60 people in the room, and I felt like we missed getting the insight from more people in that space. So, I feel like maybe the open format like you're describing could be even more effective if everybody who wants to speak has a chance to. Bill Palmer: Well, anyone who's interested in starting a Death Cafe can read on the Death Cafe website, very specific and clear instructions for leading one. I think that if someone is fortunate enough to get 50 or 60 people at a Death Cafe, that's nice, but I think it's an unwieldy number. I know that I've always limited the attendance of Death Cafe to 20. Even at 20, it can be a bit unwieldy. So, I think the smaller group dynamic works. I know I was asked to help with a Death Cafe that was being sponsored in a retirement community here in the East Bay in California. 40, 50 people showed up. Yeah, we split up into small groups, but it just wasn't as satisfying. It is just really difficult to manage. If anybody's considering doing it, I would strongly recommend that you limit the attendance. You can use a website like Eventbrite which is a free ... It's like Evite, or Eventbrite, one, they're pretty much the same. You can invite people to purchase free tickets, or just sign up for registration. Then you can limit it to 15 or 20. Dr. Bob: How did you go about finding a location? Because if you're there's no fee, I'm assuming you've done 75 of these, I'm assuming that you're trying to avoid spending a lot of your own money on these. Is there money available from any organization to help defray costs of putting these on? Bill Palmer: Actually, to be specific, The Death Cafe, you can charge a fee if it's to reimburse the cost. For example, if you rent some space or if you provide some refreshments, you can recoup the cost with nominal fees. I was very fortunate. There's a funeral home here in Oakland called Chapel of the Chimes. They have a long, long history of community involvement and a beautiful setting. They have a lovely acreage and their buildings are fantastic. They have a high commitment to community service. So, I called him up and I said, "Would you sponsor a Death Cafe? I.e. give us free publicity, give us free space?" They said, "Yeah, we'll do that, and we'll also provide coffee and cookies and donuts for you. Because it's right in line with the way that we want to be involved with the community." Death Cafe Oakland gets free space and a little bit of free publicity. They get 20 people a month walking in there who maybe otherwise wouldn't know about Chapel of the Chimes. They've just been great to us. Churches are likely spots, community centers are likely spots. Synagogues are likely spots, and funeral homes I think. There's an obvious disincentive for certain people, well, I don't want to go to a funeral home ever for any reason, but it's worked for us very well. Dr. Bob: Right? Well, my sense ... So, a great alignment, it seems like a great partnership as long as everybody's approaching it with the right intention, and it's comfortable. You don't want to partner with somebody who's going to be pushy and pushing their services. It sounds like that's clearly not happening. But the people who are coming to Death Cafes are probably the same people who don't mind walking into a funeral home. Bill Palmer: That's probable. Dr. Bob: You've got a bit of a self-selected group. Well, that's helpful. I appreciate that. So, you've done 75 of the Death Cafes. When was your first one? Do remember- Bill Palmer: March, of 2013. We actually had our 76th last night. Dr. Bob: Fantastic. So, you've spent 76, and then they're probably what, an hour and a half to two hours each? Bill Palmer: Two hours, yeah. Dr. Bob: Okay. You've had a lot of time to hear people sharing. I'm sure that you are well aware of some of the gaps and the challenges and the struggles around living and dying. Can you share some of the top insights that you've gained from the experience, and offer some of those to the listeners? Bill Palmer: I've thought about this a lot. Something that jumps out at me is that how we die in America is largely a function of race and wealth. Death Cafe in Oakland or the part of Oakland that we're in is a very different thing than a Death Cafe might be in a very different part of Oakland. That jumps out at me constantly. Another thing that jumps out at me is, we live in a secular world, many of us do. Certainly, here in California, at least in the East Bay, in the Bay Area. I'm not sure that that's a bad thing but another thing that jumps out at me is that the loss of rituals, of customs, and community, most religions supply ... Things are taking their place but if you look at the Jewish religion, or you look at Islam, or you look at Catholicism, really any of the major world's religions, Hindu, there are very specific rituals and customs around death that are a comfort, and that allow people to navigate or at least help them to navigate through what is painful and difficult. So, I think that a lot of the interest in Death Cafe and in the conversation around death, it's much larger than Death Café, is around some of the loss of those rituals and the lack of replacements for them. Dr. Bob: I started to write down the statement because I'm sure it was going to be something really valuable. Could you finish the statement, the loss of rituals, customs and community around the time of death has- Bill Palmer: Left a vacuum where people are alone. They don't have a way to navigate through that first, terrible few days, weeks, months. I just think it makes it harder. Dr. Bob: It's a vacuum, I can see that. So, people were coming to the Death Cafes in part to help to fill that void, that vacuum, or because they're afraid that that will be there? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I think on two levels. One is simply, what are rituals that I could participate in that I no longer an observant and fill in the blank. Catholic or Jew or Muslim or whatever. There are rituals that people have created in this country or reinvented in this country about dying at home, and how to care for the body of someone who has just died, against the medicalization and hospitalization, and institutionalization of death. So, I think it's both those things. Some of it is just information. What am I supposed to do? Where can I go to find some community around it? Dr. Bob: The practical issues that can really lead to a lot of stress and anxiety if they're not addressed or planned for. Bill Palmer: Yeah, exactly. Dr. Bob: Any other big insights that are jumping out for you? Bill Palmer: Unfinished business. I can't tell you. I haven't done an exact count, but probably in the 75 Death Cafes, we've had, oh gosh, 500, 600 people come through there. What I constantly hear is five years, 10 years, 20 years after someone died, that the unfinished business that I had with that person haunts me. I never forgave them, or they never forgave me. I had a sister, brothers, spouse, father, mother, son, daughter, and I never resolved what it was that drove us apart. To me, unfinished business in our relationships is the gasoline that gets thrown on the fire of grief. It just makes it all that much worse because you can't fix it once they're gone, they're gone. So, that's something that I hear over and over again. Dr. Bob: Do you offer resources ... it seems to me like ... I think one of the things that felt a little bit dissatisfying for me about the Death Cafes, was that there were people who are clearly looking for support and needing additional help and resources, and there wasn't ... Because it's not promotional, you're not giving out pamphlets or directing people specifically to resources. It feels like there would be an opportunity to bring in some experts and to have people bring in their specific questions to get that kind of guidance. What's the thinking on that? Bill Palmer: Well, I think the thinking is, and it may be flawed is that, above all, John Underwood the founder of Death Cafe did not want to commercialize. I've had any number of invitations from perfectly respectable, fine people who have a book, they have a program they have this, that or the other thing, and they want to come in and in effect, make a sales pitch. Under normal circumstances, I'd say that'd be fine. But I think it leaves us open to having to vet them, having to know what they say. My solution has been to, I've created a Facebook page for Death Cafe Oakland. I post resources there. If somebody says, "Well, gee, how do I start this conversation with my spouse?" I can mention the conversation project. I can also tell people to look on that Facebook page, which is open to the public. You don't have to have attended Death Cafe Oakland to see it. You can find wills, you can find an Advance Care Directive. You can find lots and lots of research. So, I agree with you that the one thing I do specify is that, and I say this at the beginning of every Death Café, is this is not grief counseling. So, if you're grieving, what I say is, please talk about if you want to, we will support you, but it's not grief counseling in the sense that I personally cannot offer you continuing support. Dr. Bob: Yes, it's not a support group. It's a forum, right? With a lot of people coming for different reasons? Bill Palmer: Right. I can refer them ... They can do a Google search as easily as I can on bereavement groups. There's many of them. But I agree with you, my solution is a bit of a compromise, and hopefully, it's workable, but probably every single person who ever came to Death Cafe Oakland who wanted a specific resource for a specific need sometimes didn't get it. Dr. Bob: You're staying true to a mission and that's honorable and it makes sense because you could open it up for all kinds of challenges if you don't keep the boundaries clear, and you're providing ... Again, you're doing this all as a volunteer, right? You have a career and you have to divide your time between things that allow you to pursue that and to ... I really applaud you, commend you for your passion and commitment to this. It's really remarkable. Bill Palmer: The irony is I get more than I give. I appreciate you for saying that, thank you. Dr. Bob: Just to quickly follow up on that, what have you gotten? How has it changed you to have this experience and to be part of this movement? Bill Palmer: Well on a very practical level, to avoid any hint of hypocrisy, I have filled out every form known to humanity with regard to my death, and I'm closer in terms of age, I've got a lot more behind me than I do ahead of me. I think that what I've gotten, the most valuable thing I've gotten about that is, if not an acceptance of it, but a clear idea of, if I have my way, how I want it to go to know exactly what I think is right for me in terms of end of life care. If I'm not able to make decisions or to be mentally competent, a great deal of faith in the agreements that I have with my family, specifically my daughter and my son, who I 100% trust will carry out my wishes should I not be able to act on my own. So, that's a huge gift, that really is. Just the incredible richness and variety of the people who show up, I'm always interested in groups of people. I'm never bored in a group because I'm always watching to see and hear and feel what's going on, and they never disappoint me. It's always fascinating. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, especially when they're talking about issues that are so vital and important to them. Do you still have any fear or concerns about what lies ahead for you? Bill Palmer: Sure. I think the idea of gradually losing capabilities is what bothers me and bothers most people that I talk to. Not that I'll be dead, but that I won't be able to move, or I won't be able to speak, or I won't be able to hear, or see, and then that gradual loss of capability, of mobility. Of course, I'm afraid of that. I've also been a hospice volunteer and seen people who seem to live with a quality of life, whose lost a lot. So, I take a little comfort in that. But yeah, that scares me. Dr. Bob: That is such an interesting awareness, right? That some people when they lose certain capabilities, certain degrees of independence, when they're dealing with challenges, some people are ready to die because they've lost these things and it's intolerable for them and they're ready to check out as soon as possible. Then there are others who just handle it with such grace and acceptance and even joy. I don't know what the secret formula is, I'm looking for it. Because I want to be able to A, have it for myself, and B, be able to prescribe it for my patients. But it's such a unique individual, I guess, a way of being in the world. I try to figure it out, but I haven't been able to, and I'm still working on that. Bill Palmer: Let me know when you do. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I will. You'll be one of the first ones. As far as ... I think most of us share a little bit of the fear of the unknown of what's coming. I guess one of the things that I'm really passionate about now is helping to give people a greater sense of understanding, a greater sense of control over the circumstances that they may find themselves in. Part of that is by doing all the right preparation, filling out all the right paperwork, having the conversations with those who will be responsible for making those decisions if you can't. But also, I think ... Do you feel like you have a medical team, do you feel like you have a physician who if and when things become really challenging or intolerable for you, will engage at the level that you need to support you through that difficult challenging last journey? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I do. I am a Kaiser Permanente member. And one of the criteria for my primary care physician that I insisted on was somebody who would not only understand my wishes about that but who would act upon them. The interviews that I did, I found a physician who I'm reasonably certain will honor my wishes. My advanced care directive is scanned into my medical record there... it's a crapshoot a little bit- Dr. Bob: A little bit, it always is. Bill Palmer: You fall down on the street and nobody knows who you are, and they take you to whatever hospital, the ER people are bound by law and by custom to do everything that they can to resuscitate you. Is there a chance it could all go sideways? Yeah, but I feel like ... I've taken every precaution I could to try to make it go the way that I want, and my physician she seems like she's just fine with it. So that's important. Dr. Bob: Well, let's hope whenever it happens, many many years in the future, she'll probably be retired, and you'll have to have a new person who comes on ... I guess that's a good reason to try to find younger doctors so that you connect with. Well, this has been great. I feel like we've given people a great overview of what the Death Cafes are designed to do, and hopefully given some insight into where some of the challenges and struggles people face are, and how to try to mitigate those. I appreciate your time. If you have any burning thoughts that you want to share before we sign off, I am all ears. If you feel like you're complete with what we've discussed, that's totally cool too. Bill Palmer: No burning thoughts, but I want to thank you for the time, and for your thoughtful questions and statements. It was great to connect with you and someday, some way I hope our paths will cross. Thank you again. Dr. Bob: Thank you, Bill. Bill Palmer, founder and curator of Death Cafe Oakland, and I'm sure our paths will cross hopefully fairly soon.

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Helping Seniors Transition from their Homes, Jami Shapiro, Ep. 16

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 13, 2018 40:45

Jami Shapiro helps seniors transition from homes with her company Silver Linings Transitions. Learn why she is so passionate about this work and how she can help you or your loved ones. Contact Silver Linings Transitions Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Jami Shapiro: Thanks for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's great to have you here. Jami Shapiro: This is exciting. I was really looking forward to this conversation, so I'm glad to be here. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Why is that? Jami Shapiro: Well, death and what you do, it has just really become ... I guess I should describe what it is that I do so that it can set the stage for people. Dr. Bob: Sounds good. Jami Shapiro: Okay. I own a company, as you mentioned, called Silver Linings Transitions and we started as a senior move management company, which is actually part of a National Association called The National Association of Senior Move Management, and I have to step it back a little bit because about 13 years ago, I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, and I was 34 years old, and it was life-changing for me to have to wait on the diagnosis and at the same time, one of my closest friends died of ovarian cancer. When you look at cancer as a 34-year old, you realized, "Oh, this is borrowed time." A friend of mine who had cancer as a freshman college said that getting cancer was like getting a front row seat to life. Dr. Bob: Wow. Jami Shapiro: Right. I started to look at my own life, and I knew that what I was doing wasn't fulfilling for me. I ended up moving to San Diego from Florida with my now ex-husband, when he took a dean position out here, and it was an opportunity for me to explore what it was that I wanted to do and the first job that I had was actually working at a cancer foundation started by a family who had lost their daughter at 39 to gastroesophageal cancer stage four, and no one knew because we weren't talking about it or what the symptoms were. I loved that they took their tragedy and they turned it into something, which was really very close to who I was. Around the time that I needed to put my daughter into private school, a friend of mine approached me about starting a business selling things for seniors on eBay. That was how we were going to start. Then while she was researching that, we found out about The National Association and they were going to be having their conference in San Diego two months later, and went to that conference, and that was that light bulb that everybody hopes to get, and it was like, "This is what I'm meant to do," and the people that do the work that I do, which is helping seniors when they're transitioning from their homes. It can be the home they've been in for 60 years. It can be the condo that they've moved into, but going into a senior community typically or sometimes into a smaller space is actually very ... It's a tough transition. It's medically identified as relocation stress syndrome, and they say that it is the most difficult transition a person will make in their lifetime. I don't know compared to what you're helping them transition through, but it's tough. Dr. Bob: It's significant. Jami Shapiro: It's significant. Dr. Bob: It's significant, and it's probably under-addressed and under-recognized in general. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Right. Then, what their staff represents to them. That's what we're doing is we're helping them go through the mementos of their lives, so I started it that way with a partner. Then, things happen the way life does, and my partner ended up going to work with her husband because he had actually started a business as well. Then, I had to look at how am I going to do this business by myself because I planned on having a partner. I've got three children. Anyway, I ended up shortly after that, putting something on Facebook that I was looking for help because I'm actually as great as my company is, and you have to be very organized to do the work that we do, but I'm not organized. I knew I had to find somebody that was. Initially, I was looking for a partner, couldn't find the right partner. Then, I put something on Facebook in a group of women that I, in San Elijo Hills, we have a little women's site. I posted something, and the first person that responded to me was a woman who had been a stay at home mom for 18 years, and she couldn't find anyone that would hire her. That was when the second epiphany happened, and that was women when they're transitioning back into the workforce whether they're going through a divorce or their kids are going to school, it's tough for women to compete with the younger women and then to have the flexibility, so that became my team and that was women transitioning back into the workforce. Then, right after that, I started, my marriage ended. It was like I'm starting a business simultaneously and going through a divorce. Then, I realized that women including me, if we walk away from careers and even though I worked, we didn't find my retirement. We find it his, and even though I'm getting half of his retirement, I'm starting at a lower level than he is. Then, you've got the issue of benefits. My long-term objective is actually to help the seniors and the other clients because we now help divorcing clients. We help when there's a death, and we go into the home, but it's also to provide meaningful work for women, a platform that will give them to get the confidence to get back up into the workforce, but I see this really ... In my vision, it's national. That's where I'm going. Dr. Bob: That's awesome. That's really great. It's like a trifecta. You're helping several populations that clearly have needs. Many of those needs are unmet, and you're doing it from a place not ... It sounds like, not necessarily because you want to be a billionaire, but because you want to have meaningful work. You want your life to mean something, and you were fortunate to have that wake-up call at 34 when you realized that, "Wow. There really is a limit to all of this," and you needed to do something now. That's awesome. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Dr. Bob: That's pretty wonderful. Jami Shapiro: Well, that's actually why I called the company Silver Linings Transitions because I would never have gotten to that place if I haven't had that experience. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I love that. It really resonates with me because for me, I've been accused of being an eternal optimist and even in the phase of situations where it really seems like it wouldn't be the appropriate response, I just have this sense of optimism that things are going to work out and I always look for the silver linings, and I talked about that because there always is one. Jami Shapiro: You're absolutely right. There's always a lesson to be learned. Dr. Bob: Yeah. No question about it because we can't control what happens in life. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. That's exactly right. Dr. Bob: What we can control is our response to it. Jami Shapiro: I just wrote a blog about that yesterday actually, and it ended exactly that same way. Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Good for you. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Dr. Bob: I love the fact that ... We talked about this before we started recording that there's definitely some similarities and alignment in our ... Not just our chosen, I guess career path. Jami Shapiro: And who we're serving, right? Dr. Bob: And who we're serving, but I think what we're trying to accomplish. Jami Shapiro: Our why? I think we both talked about the fact that we both feel like this is a calling. Yeah. I'm also an eternal optimist and I'm so grateful actually that I am because I have a lot of family members with depression, and I know that it's really difficult, and I feel like if I can talk about God because that's really helped me with everything that's gone on is to know that He's given me these talents and there's some reason that I have them, and there's something I'm supposed to do with them. Dr. Bob: Yeah. If you didn't, well, then you wouldn't be fulfilling your reason for being here. Jami Shapiro: That's exactly right. That's right. Dr. Bob: Right? It's so cool because there's ... In your work as well and in mine, we come across people who are in really difficult circumstances often, and they're going through challenges, and it's fascinating to see how people respond to those challenges because I can be talking with a person who's in their 80s, 90s or over 100 who's struggling, and looking at uncertain future, but likely challenging, but they don't feel victimized. They still see the positives in life, and they still feel grateful for what they've had and what life has been for them, and even what's coming. Jami Shapiro: That's right. What they can do. Right. We need to identify what it is we still can do. Dr. Bob: There's such an opportunity, I think, we're not a psychologist. We're not a psychiatrist. We're not the therapist, but in everything that we do, I think there's an opportunity to help to share this sense of the possibilities. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Right? That there is a silver lining to everything. Sometimes people don't want to hear that in the moment, but I think representing that, living it by example is very important, and it sounds to me like you're doing that. Jami Shapiro: Right. It's interesting because I do get to work with seniors when they're going through the mementos of their life as I mentioned, and so we actually ... I have a partner, Bryan Devore, he's a realtor, and we worked together now. He does his own Silver Linings Transitions, but most people who are selling a home ... Well, everyone selling a home will have to move, and a lot of the clients that we come across are seniors who will also need to sell their homes, so we offer that as a bundled service, but we ended up working with four clients together last year. Two of them embraced moving into a senior community. One of them had his name tag on when we met him, and he was excited about going, and he was going to have his meals there, and the other woman put herself on a waiting list and brought my company in, so we could get her ready for that transition, and those two are thriving. Then, there were two situations where we were called in, and they were kicking and screaming going there, both had put deposits down, but neither one of them wanted to be there. Both of them pass within a month of moving, and it just shows like you're right. You don't have a choice in a matter. The only choice you have is your response to it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's powerful. Jami Shapiro: We started a TV show actually that we're going to start filming in March, and I'm really excited about showing people what senior community really is and following people who are transitioning into those changes. Dr. Bob: The communities that you're helping people transition to, is it any size? It can be a large assisted living or independent living or small residential care homes? Jami Shapiro: Sure. We've even done an 8,500 square foot ranch in Santa Fe home into a smaller three bedroom house. Anytime there's a downsize and we actually ... I don't want to plug the business because that's something the conversation is about. Dr. Bob: Please do. You're plugging something that's needed, and valuable. Jami Shapiro: We're working with a family now, and there's a little bit of health stuff going on and they are needing to move out of their son's school because there are some issues going on and there are some boundary changes, and so my team is going in and getting the home organized and helping them move because people would say, "Well, do you have to be a senior?" I said, "No. We don't discriminate based on age." We really help, and Bryan is selling the home for them, and as I mentioned, if he sells their home, then he provides Silver Linings Transitions free for our clients. We actually have a website called packedforfree.com, and we actually created a little thing that looks like a Reese's because what's the best combination in the world? Chocolate and peanut butter and next is selling your home and moving. Dr. Bob: Right. Helping someone transition. Jami Shapiro: Right? Move services. Exactly. Dr. Bob: Well, I just moved a little over a month ago, and we're pretty good at moving. We moved a number of times. I think we just changed. Jami Shapiro: Me, too. Me, too. Dr. Bob: ...When I was looking at the website, and the idea that really appealed to me is you get up in the morning, you leave your bed unmade, you go out, you enjoy your day, you go back to your new place, and everything's in place. The idea of that was just like incredibly overwhelming to me. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. For us ... Dr. Bob: I wish I would have known about you. Jami Shapiro: You know what? I wish that every time somebody said that, I got a dollar because I'd be a wealthy woman. Dr. Bob: I know. Me too. Yeah. No doubt about it. Jami Shapiro: Yeah, exactly. Dr. Bob: For me, and probably for you too, it really makes me sad when I hear somebody say, "I wish we had known about you when my mom was ill, or a few months ago when we were going through these challenges." Jami Shapiro: Right. I think one of the things that also we are different than a moving company because the women that I'm hiring are so compassionate, and it's funny. Most of them have found Silver Linings Transitions. One of them when I was first starting the business, and I wanted to take credit cards, I had to have my ... My home was where I was going to work out of the company or work, and she came in to look at my home and make sure I was legitimate, and we've got into a conversation and her father had just passed away, and she was helping her mother go through all of his belongings, and she's actually my head manager now. That's how she found me coming into my kitchen, and then I have another woman whose husband was on jury duty, and he happened to hear somebody talking about the company, and she approached me. People are coming because I think they feel that calling too, and I think it's so evident when our clients work with us that we are just really compassionate and ... Dr. Bob: That's what they want. That's what people want. Jami Shapiro: Yes. Dr. Bob: They don't want someone who is just going to come in and handle the transaction. Jami Shapiro: Right. They would be heard. Dr. Bob: At this day, for some people, yes, it's about cost, and they have to be conscientious about that, but I think for more people at that stage of life, it's about trust, knowing that they and their things are in good hands and that it goes smoothly. Similarly, I think there's alignment there as well that there's such a ... The norm is that things don't go smoothly. The typical situation is people struggle. They try to find the resources, and they're searching, and they're getting recommendations and they piecemeal it together. To be able to say that anxiety, time, frustration by having a teen that they can really trust and feel good about working makes all the difference in the world. Jami Shapiro: Right. I noticed that about your team as well, and it's having a comprehensive solution. I know when I had thyroid cancer actually, I was very fortunate that I lived in Jacksonville, Florida and there was a Mayo Clinic, and the leading person who dealt with thyroid cancer endocrinologist happened to be in Jacksonville. Then, it ended up that we couldn't go because the insurance have that goes. Dealing with Mayo where everything was in one place, and as a patient, it was so comforting versus them having to leave that system and then have to exactly piecemeal it together. There's nothing worse than going through something really tough, and then having to manage all the pieces too. Dr. Bob: Right. The situation itself is stressful, and then to add on top of that all the frustration that comes with trying to get the right support. Jami Shapiro: Right. Dr. Bob: The healthcare system is the prime example of that, which is why we exist. I would be very happy if there was no need for us. Jami Shapiro: Oh, no death. I say [crosstalk 00:15:34]. Dr. Bob: Well, I would be wonder ... People were going to die, right? Jami Shapiro: Yes. [crosstalk 00:15:39]. Dr. Bob: We're not going to stop that, but if everybody has the right support and the right guidance. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Because the medical system acts like death is not going to happen. They don't talk about death. Jami Shapiro: Right. I'm not supposed to talk about it either. I was telling you we go out and we give talks. The talk that I've done lately is, "Do you own your stuff or does your stuff own you?" Because so many people are prisoners to these rooms, they're not even living in because their stuff is there. They're not even enjoying their stuff, and that's a whole conversation that I still want to address, but when I talked about it, and we're talking about downsizing and going through the mementos of their life, I've been told not to talk about death. We want to bury our heads in the sand. I actually went to ... An attorney was giving a talk on advance directives, and he said that only 10% of people even have a discussion with their spouse about what their wishes are. It's just like we just want to bury our head in the sand. Dr. Bob: Yes, we do, but we're trying to do something about that. Right? Jami Shapiro: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Bob: And people like us, which is why we're having this conversation, which is why people like us who, for some reason, somehow had become comfortable with the concept. It's so important for us to be out there leading by example and encouraging the conversations. I think that there's a shift happening. There's a movement underway, the death cap phase, and maybe I have a warped sense of things just because I'm so immersed in that. Jami Shapiro: Yes. Dr. Bob: But I do get the sense that when I'm out speaking with people, and they learn what I do, it opens up this flood sometimes of wanting to talk about the experiences they've had. You and your team find yourselves in situations where you're having intimate conversations, and people are in a vulnerable time, so you're probably experiencing some of this as well. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: I'm amazed how freely people talk about the experiences that they've had in their life around death of a relative or a friend, and I would say it's probably equally divided between people who talk about how difficult and challenging it was and their frustration with the system and fear about what might happen next time, somebody that they love or they become ill, but there's another group of people who want to share what an incredibly transformational experience it was because they somehow found the resources they needed. They had a great hospice team. They have advocates, and so it seems so ... The goal really seems to be to try to get those people who have had those scary, challenging, frustrating, horrific experiences to not have to deal with that but to be able to be in that other camp where it is a beautiful, peaceful transformational experience. Jami Shapiro: Right. You said something that you're noticing, and you think it's because of the work that you're doing, but I also am ... I've sort of become, I would say more spiritual, and sort of realizing a collective soul now. I actually had read back in my 20s the book, "Many Lives, Many Masters," by Brian Weiss, and ended up having a conversation with somebody about Akashic records, which is probably something I can't even interest, but I reread the book now in my 40s, and so, now I see this time on earth, they call it earth school, which ties back into the whole silver linings thing, which is what lessons is my soul supposed to learn? That has given me some peace because I'm actually one of those people whose always been really afraid of death too and it was one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you because it's really addressing something that I myself not wanted to talk about. As I'm starting this business and realizing that for me anyway, and I would say most people, we are going to leave this earth. There's no debate. We both know, and we're on the same side of the coin, that's going to happen, but what's your legacy going to be? What is it that you're going to have done? What's your imprint? I think when you are ... [inaudible 00:20:03] the word "aligned," but it is, when you are aligned, when you are listening to that voice or however comes to you, meditation or the light bulb moment, then you realize you're part of something bigger. Dr. Bob: That has brought you more peace? Jami Shapiro: It has. It has. Now, I'm reading "Journey of Souls," and that one's a little bit more challenging for me. I read the Brian Weiss one in a day, and this one, I've been struggling with, but it talks about our souls and the way that our souls evolve and that some souls don't even come back to earth, and that they are so ... They love where they are, so that gives me peace. Actually, when I was in my 20s, I worked with a couple ... I was in a different line of work, but they lost their adult sons, both of them within a period of two years, and I told them about this book. Then actually, recently, I was in yoga, and I was really getting frustrated because I wanted to get into the class and there was a woman, and she was talking to the woman that was checking everybody in, and, "Come on, come on, come on." Then, the one woman said, "I've been thinking about you. My daughter passed away last week." Then, it was just like ... That changed where I was at completely, and I told her about the book because for me, just thinking that this isn't a final conversation, that this isn't a final place and I remember too like that whole class, I felt called to hug her. I just needed to hug her. That's not something I'm just going to like, "Hey yo." Then, I walked up, and I said, "I just have to. Is it okay?" It just was such a ... That collectiveness that we are this one thing. Dr. Bob: You could sense that there was a bond of some sort or you wanted to bring her some comfort? Jami Shapiro: Right. Right. Yeah. Dr. Bob: It's fascinating, and I love where you're going. I love this path that you're on. Do you bring this into ... Obviously, it influences everything in your life and your work. Do you incorporate this into the relationships with your clients and your team? Jami Shapiro: Yes. That is a great question. Actually, when we have had clients and the tears start to come because they do, and I'll say to them, "I was diagnosed with cancer at 34." The idea of being a senior when you're 34 years old, and you don't know ... At that point, I didn't know that I have thyroid cancer. Actually, they call it "the good cancer," but I had to wait 10 days for my pathology to come back to even know that that's what it was, so I had that opportunity to look at my life and my mortality. I say to my clients, "You're so lucky because whatever life threw at you, you get to be here making these decisions. Let's own it." Kind of embracing going into a senior community like starting a new school or I remember we had a client, and she had a ton of hats. Some of these hats had never been worn. They still have the tags on them, and we're going through her belongings and trying to figure out what's going to fit. I said, "Why don't you take the hat? Somebody known as the crazy hat lady? You can change it." It is just like you said back in the beginning; it's attitude. I think when I can say to them, "I faced it, and you're so lucky to be here." That really turns it around for them. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, we have a shared experience there as well. Yours was a little bit more intensive, but the day before my 50th birthday, which was a little over five years ago, I got a phone call from a doctor telling me that I have prostate cancer because I've been having issues and MRI was done. A month later, it turned out that we found out that that was not correct, but I spent a month with this belief that I have a fairly aggressive form of cancer, and it changed things for me. I already felt like I had a fairly healthy outlook on life, but at that point, I just saw things differently. I started seeing things through a little bit of a different lens, and I realized it's okay. That was a big piece for me. I realized that no matter what happens, no matter what life threw at me, it was going to be okay. I was prepared. I had pretty much said to those I love and those in my life what I want them to know. I didn't feel like I had any relationships that needed to be fixed, which was wonderful. I think it was a gift, but I would love for people to be able to have that gift without having to have that diagnosis or that fear of the diagnosis. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely, right. Dr. Bob: To be able to have something that allows them to do ... Just to check in to do a big-time check in with where they are, and essentially answer the question, "Are you ready?" If you're not, what do you need to do to be ready? Jami Shapiro: Right. Dr. Bob: Get on it. Jami Shapiro: Right. Absolutely. I also see that too as the brick that was turning your path because you're dealing with people when they're going through this time, and when you're in that space, I think it gives you ... I think you're already an amazingly empathetic and compassionate, but now maybe a little more empathetic because you sat there. Dr. Bob: Then, subsequently in the last few years, both my parents going through terminal lung cancer and dying in my presence and my family's presence has added to that. We don't want everyone to have to go through these personal experiences in order to get the lessons, which is I think partly why we're putting ourselves out there and creating opportunities for other like-minded folks to come in and provide support and guidance. Jami Shapiro: Right. Yeah. Sure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You've had a number of experiences that have influenced your journey and your path and kind of the attribute. I know that you've also experienced death in your life. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, my grandmother was, I think the person that I was closest to in the entire world, and I'm actually wearing her pin today because I'm going to be starting filming on this show and I wanted to have her a part of her with me, and I will sense her sometimes, not necessarily like feeling her, but finding a letter that she wrote that was exactly what I needed to read in that moment or on my 47th birthday, I was going through a divorce. I just had a breakup with the boyfriend, and I was not expecting much of the day because no one to throw a party for me, and I was an only child. My birthday is a big deal. When you have cancer too, you need to celebrate birthdays, but I ended up totally by fluke, I had my three daughters. It was my birthday, so nobody could say no. I'm going to sit in my bed with me, and we're going to look through this box and mementos. I have had this box and some of the things in it for years, but there was a jewelry pouch that had been my grandmother's, and she had these pins that I knew about, and I knew that her wedding ring was there, but there was a little brown pouch, and it was flat. It was a felt pouch and had I not been a senior move manager, I would have tossed the pouch, but something made me put my finger inside, and I found a diamond earring. Then, I couldn't find the other one, and I was searching the whole box, and then I put my finger back in and found the other earring. I'm wearing them. It was funny too because I had gotten this second holes when I was 16 years old and didn't want to wear them, and I was thinking, "Maybe I should get a small earring." Really, this is so true. Then, I found my grandmother's earrings and have been wearing them every day since because I think she meant for me to find them. Dr. Bob: Yes, absolutely. Jami Shapiro: That's my experience with death. I wasn't there when she passed, but it's interesting because she ended up dying from a pulmonary embolism, and I got a call that she had passed, and my husband at the time was going to drive me to the hospital, and my daughter was two months old at the time, and we got stuck in traffic. I needed to get there, and so I got out of the car, and I ran into her room, and she was still there. That was the only time I've ever been close to anybody who had died, and part of me wishes that I had been there to hear that last breath that I hear so peaceful. I've not experienced that, so it's just me seeing this woman that I loved laying there, and I couldn't touch her. Still, it scared me. Dr. Bob: Did you feel like she was no longer there? Did you feel like her spirit, her soul had left the body at that point? Jami Shapiro: Yeah, I didn't sense her. I will say my mom would feel her presence a lot because my mom was actually there when she was dying, and it was a very traumatic death because she was gasping for air, and it really was with my mom and still is. I'm sure I don't even like to talk about it with her because it brings up that for her, but I didn't. I don't feel her the way people talk about feeling energy or I don't feel her, but I know that she's looking out for me because of these little things that keep happening. There are so many synchronicities in my life that are just ... I have no other way to describe them. Part of this is her, but just also I don't know. God is just leading this path. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I think many people feel that. They feel the synchronicities. They feel the signs, messages, but you need to be looking for them, right? Jami Shapiro: Oh, you absolutely have to be open to it. Dr. Bob: I think if you're not, you can just keep blinders on and if that's the case, I guess you could still be hit over the side of the head with a two by four sign. Jami Shapiro: Or cancer diagnosis. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Exactly. Maybe being aware and receptive and looking for those things, maybe that's a health benefit. Jami Shapiro: Sure. Dr. Bob: If you're getting what you need, maybe you're not going to get the things that you don't want because you're not paying attention. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. That's another interesting thing that you brought up. There's another book. I do a lot of reading a lot, and there was a book by Jen Sincero called, "You Are a Badass," and just very inspired by ... I see on your bookshelf, "Think and Grow Rich," but she has an exercise where she says, "For the next minutes spend, look at everything you can find that's right. Count as many things that you can find that are red." You spend a minute counting red, and then she says, "What do you see that was yellow?" Right? We are going to see what we're looking for. Dr. Bob: What we're paying attention to. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Right. If you look at my bookshelf, when I moved, I took some of the books from home and brought them here. "Think and Grow Rich" could be next to "Many Lives, Many Masters." I have a whole array. I guess I want people to know how to find ... I want people who are potentially going through these transitions or know people who are going through transitions and looking for support. Tell me who are the people who are your ideal clients who really need you, and what's the best way for them to get a hold of you? Jami Shapiro: I feel like my answer is going to make me sound like a transition queen, but as I mentioned ... Dr. Bob: I think you are becoming the transition queen. Jami Shapiro: As I mentioned, Silver Linings Transitions is my company that we started as a senior move management company, and then going through my own divorce and I don't know if I shared it in the interview, but I was having a consultation because my ex and I ... Really, it was a pretty amicable divorce as these things go, but we got to a point where we didn't agree on the house and the attorney that I consulted with said that if we couldn't come to an agreement, that we were going to go before a judge and the judge was going to make us put our house on the market in 60 days, and I looked at her and I was like a deer caught in headlights and like I said, "You're going through one of the most difficult transitions in your life, and now you have to sell your house?" In the middle of my own consultation, I looked at her, and I said, "Do you think divorcing couples would benefit from the services we're providing for seniors?" We started an offshoot, even though it's still Silver Linings Transitions that goes in, but it's called Divorce Home Solutions because I don't think someone going through a divorce is quite ready to hear Silver Linings. You know what I mean? Then, actually my grandmother passed unexpectedly, and my family and they say weddings and funerals bring out the worst in people, descended on her home, but also had to deal with clearing it out when we were grieving. We were having to deal with the physical part of that while we're planning a funeral and grieving this amazing woman. I tear every time I talk about her. I do. I just love ... Anyway, sorry. I remember the items that I didn't get. You know what I mean? One of the things that we do also is we'll go into a home, and we will do a sentimental auction, and we will help the families rather than fight with each other, you come to an amicable solution and then if Bryan Devore who I worked with sells their home, we'll come and we'll clear the whole thing. We can bring the appraiser in to figure out if there's anything of value. We can help divide the belongings. We ship things to people. We just make that another easy transition, and we started meeting with funeral home directors, and a lot of them will keep our brochure and again, that doesn't say Silver Linings Transitions either, but it's really just us going in, and I'm helping anybody and people say, "Do you have to be a senior?" "No." Moving is one of life's top five stressors. If somebody wanted to find me, they could go to my website, Silver Linings Transitions, not just me because I would not be where I am if I haven't had this amazing team of people who found their calling too, but silverliningstransitions.com, and that would give them an opportunity to reach out. Dr. Bob: Are you looking at ... Thank you. Hopefully, that will bring some peace to folks knowing that this exists. I know that when we have patients who die, this is a very common need that everyone is left with so many things that they have to be worrying about and thinking about, and one of them is, "What do we do with all this stuff? What do we do at the house? What do we do with all these things?" It's really the last thing in the world that they really want to be focusing on. Jami Shapiro: Right, or should be. Dr. Bob: Having a compassionate team of people that come in and support that is phenomenal. Are there other companies that you know of that have the same breath of service that you do? Jami Shapiro: Well, as I mentioned, I am part of the national association, The National Association of Senior Move Managers, and people can find it. It's nasmm.org, and they could find other people who do the work that I do and honestly, anybody who chooses to join an association where we're not regulated is already ... As far as I'm concerned, having to learn how to work with seniors and taking that level of commitment to the work that we do. There are other senior move management companies, but I don't think there are any other Silver Linings Transitions, and again, one of my callings is also to help the women who are transitioning back into the workforce. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Are you looking for additional team members? Jami Shapiro: It's a great question. Yes, I am. We're growing, and we're getting to the point where we don't have enough hands. Dr. Bob: Okay. We'll keep that in mind. Jami Shapiro: Yes. Absolutely. In fact, when I go and talk to divorcing people, especially these women who've been at home and are still getting support, I said, "This is the time to start building your resume in that platform," but of course, my vision is to grow and to not just be in San Diego, and rather than doing franchises where you've got to come up with money to pay for a franchise, I want to build this business where we could go in and train people in different cities and give them the tools that they need to run Silver Linings Transitions out of their cities. That's when I think of the whole "Think and Grow Rich," that's the picture of it that's in my head, and not because I want to grow rich but because I just feel like it has to be done. Dr. Bob: Well, you want to grow, and you want to make sure that your life has meaning, that you want to be the example of creating a legacy and doing something that is clearly going to bring value to people. Like us, the need is huge. The gaps are immense, and we want to try to fill that need in the most, I guess, organic and beautiful way possible. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. I can see, by the way, why you coming into someone's home when they're at this point because there's very calming presence about you, and I love the people I have met in your office and that you have this team that can go in and supports them with massage or acupuncture or ... I saw the aromatherapy, I see have been going right now during the interview. Yeah. If it's going to happen, let's make it as gentle as possible. Dr. Bob: Let's make it beautiful. Right. Jami Shapiro: Exactly. Dr. Bob: Because I think back to your grandmother and that struggle, and I don't know how long that went on for those circumstances, but truly I believe that there is a way aside from a very sudden traumatic type death or an incident that is just unanticipated or unexpected, the vast majority of death's cannon should be peaceful and beautiful, and that's not happening routinely, which means that we're doing something wrong, and we have opportunities to make a huge impact because your mom shouldn't have to live with that, right? Jami Shapiro: Oh, no. No. Dr. Bob: That's my why. People shouldn't have to live with fear when we could be there making sure that every last breath is peaceful. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. I just got chills. Just beautiful work that you're doing. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You as well. Jami Shapiro: Thank you. Dr. Bob: I have a feeling that we're going to be collaborating more and this will not be our last conversation. Jami Shapiro: I have a feeling that might be the case. Dr. Bob: Thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure. Jami Shapiro: Thank you so much. Weak adjective: difficult by→for in→at , and , I→; I Repetitive word: home the good Undo GENERAL (DEFAULT) 7386 WORDS 3 CRITICAL ISSUES5 ADVANCED ISSUESSCORE: 99 Style checking has been disabled

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Founding the Hemlock Society, Derek Humphry Ep. 8