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"I am truly a positive person. So what you see on my Instagram is just what you get. You know, that might not make you the most popular person. But it makes it much, much, much easier for me, because I'm just being myself. Mhm. Yeah, can you talk more about that? What made you think of that just now? I thought about it, because I think sometimes, you see so much doom and gloom… Every social media, everywhere. And then sometimes, when you look at that, or if it's not the doom and gloom, it's the… You know, the people talking about being stressed all the time, or body conscious all the time. You know, it's always negative! And I wonder, why? I mean, is that all people go through in life? Negativity? Yes, I have had moments that I'm pissed off, upset, have gone through things… But you cannot let that just rule and take over your life." — Welcome to the Wise Not Withered podcast! We are in Season 4, and this is Episode 10. This month's guest is Vickie Heath Glosson. I found her on Instagram, where she describes herself as "Gray hair beauty influencer and motivator with an eclectic lifestyle. Encouraging personal growth and a beacon of positivity and creativity." She truly is just so varied in all of her interests and activities that she does. She talks about her upbringing, as well as all kinds of things she's into now, such as her hair, her gardening, her teaching, her collaborations (being an ambassador for various beauty products), and she truly is just such a warm, beautiful soul. It was such a pleasure to talk to her and listen to her share so much about her life. And I will let her tell the rest of the story! Enjoy! — Cool! All right! Let's just dive right in! Let's go for it! What is your age? I am 66! 66, excellent. And where did you grow up? I grew up in the state of Texas, in a small city called Galena Park. It's right on the outskirts of Houston. So… Houston, Texas. Okay, nice. And where else have you lived? I am a born and raised Texan! Yeah! I'm right here. My parents both came from Louisiana, and they settled here in Houston in the mid-50's. Okay. Cool, do you know what brought them to where you are now? Of course! They grew up in the Northern part of Louisiana, and after my mom and dad got married, they settled in Seattle, Washington for a while. But since their parents were in Louisiana, they went back and stayed for a while. But they kinda wanted to live their life on their terms. And they decided on Houston. My parents were… My dad was a lawyer. My parents were business people. We had a café, growing up. They settled in Houston to do that. In Northern Louisiana, it was a small town… Opportunities were just not there. And so they decided to move on. Cool, and what do you do for a living? I know you have—you do so many things, but yeah what's like the main thing, if there is one? So many things… Actually, educator! I have taught for forty-five years. Wow! Actually I retired, then I got rehired because I missed it a little bit. I did that… I started teaching at a very young age of 21, and I taught in the Houston and Galena Park districts. So basically that's it. I'm an educator, of mostly middle school and high school. Okay, nice. Oh my gosh. Definitely an eclectic lifestyle, as you say on your page. How did you get into teaching? Well, my family has been deep into education. Actually, all my sisters above me… And I'ma just step back for a minute: there are eleven of us, okay. Mom and Dad had eleven children, and none of us are twins. My mom actually always wanted to be a teacher, and so I think over the years, hearing her talking about it on the regular… It just got instilled in us, because education was always really important. My grandmother, on my dad's side, was a teacher for years. So I really came from a long line of educators. So it just became a part… As a matter of fact, my oldest sister right now has been teaching for fifty-five years—in one district! Wow! Yes, yes. But all my sisters—and I have brothers. Brothers didn't go into the teaching. But all my sisters above me—which I am seven from the top! There are, what… Three sisters over me. Okay. Wow. So just a whole family of teachers. Yes, teachers, educators of some sort. Mhm. Okay. Yeah, and what has made you stay in it? Well, what happened is… I do do a lot of things. I spend a lot of time… I just love the kids! I retired for four years. And then my mom passed, okay… And after she did, my kids were in college. My younger two were in college still. I was like, “Let me sub for a little bit.” So I went in and substituted. I was teaching anyway. I could not be that person just sitting back and not helping my students. And so I went, “Well you know what? If I'm teaching anyway, I'll just go ahead and go back.” And that's what I did. I said, “If I get hired, I get hired. If not… You know, I won't worry about it. I'm retired. It's been four years. I'm good.” And my second interview, I got hired again! So I said, “Okay, I'll do this!” It's been almost six years now since I've been back. Nice! Awesome. All right, yeah… I love so many things that I saw on your profile. One of them was “Encouraging personal growth”. What does personal growth mean to you? Oh gosh… Just continue doing things, you know? Keep living life, having fun. Yes, there's always gonna be setbacks, that's normal. But you just have to persevere. You just have to say, “Okay, that happened. I made a mistake, perhaps.” I've learned, and move on! I believe in living, loving, and laughing! That's kind of my motto. It did not just happen. I was a little quieter in my earlier years, but I've always believed that. I believe in family. Doing things that make you happy! If it doesn't make me happy, I move on. Yeah, that's great! I love that. And what does make you happy? I'm sure there's tons of things, but what comes to mind first? Family! Family. I love family. I've always been family-oriented. I was close daughter to my mother and father. And my children! Oh my goodness. We do so, so much together. I love having them here with me, being around them, doing adventurous things with them. And you know, we'll just… Family. Family is just the bottom line. They just keep my heart beating. I'm excited about that. And of course, now I have two grand-daughters… That's just the icing on the cake. (Laughs) (Laughs) Ah, that's so cute. What was your relationship like with your mom? Oh my… We were really close. When I was growing up, like I said I was a little quieter. I was seventh, so I kind of sat back and watched. But she was very, very supportive. The song that I love, love, love—that I feel represents our relationship the most—you know, the wind beneath my wings! Yeah! Because she had always been there. Beautiful woman, beautiful heart, very supportive… She's the one, when I came home from dance classes, just if I learned a new step. She may be in the middle of something, and she's gonna stop. Whether she liked it or not, it's like “Oh my goodness, look at you! You done a great job.” You know, she always gave me time. Middle of the night sometimes, I wake up… She'll be in there sewing. Instead of swishing me back, to go to bed, “Come here, come on! Let me teach you this.” She taught me embroidery, taught me how to sew. And a lot of things were just her and me. I was interested, she knew I was. And if I wanted to learn from her, I did. You may have noticed, a lot of the pictures are gardening! Oh my gosh. She was an exceptional gardener. And I was right there with her, trying to learn as much as I could about everything. I wondered, “How do you know all this?” You know, remember all that? And I just kind of amazed myself, now, when I can go and do the same, and my kids are right there with me. They're like, “Mom, how do know all this?” Ah, I love that!! But she was… Yeah, just a wonderful person. You know, of course, we had our ups and downs, just like any other mother and daughter, but… An amazing woman. I'm that one to say, “When I grow up, I want to be like you.” A role model. Yeah… Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. Yeah, maybe can you talk more about your gardening? Oh gosh! Oh wow! Okay! I've always had a garden. Even in my single days, always had one… 2019 was a real transformation. My son and I—cause I have a son that stays here with me. We had grass in the backyard, the whole works, a courtyard. We decided, you know, let's do something! He's very creative. We kinda bonded here together, got our thoughts together. We cleared out every piece of grass, weeds, and we revamped it. It was really nice, took a while… Then covid hit. It was horrible, a terrible time in life, but we made so much out of it. We went through our whole, entire backyard. We dug it up. We transformed it! And it's my little paradise—my piece of paradise. We made a biometric type of gardening. A place where not only my family and myself, but for the animals. All the birds… We set it up, the garden for butterflies, the bees. We wanted nature to be part of the yard. That's how we set it up. I was taught earlier that when you do gardening, whether it's a flower garden or vegetable garden, whatever. You know, you do it enough to have enough for yourself, and enough for the animals. They come in and eat your tomatoes, or pick your peppers, whatever they do. There's always extra. So that's what we wanted. That's the way we wanted the garden to be, and that's how it turned out. We put gravel over the other areas. We have flower gardens, we have… Oh my gosh. I have peaches, apples, peppers, onions, garlic, greens. Just name it, it's there. And I love living a healthy life. I love going outside to pick my garden. It has been very healthful, very calming. I've loved just sitting back, and watching what I've done! I'm very proud of it. So I've been keeping it up, and it looks amazing! Oh, that's great! How fun. I remember my dad grew some, I think tomatoes. I feel like it tastes a lot better, from the natural garden. (Laughs) Oh, yes. And you know, they eat a little more than we want them to eat. (Laughs) But we don't use pesticides. We just try to get there earlier and pick it before they do. Yeah, that's so interesting too, to leave enough for the animals too, since it's inevitable that that'll happen. Yeah. I love that! How about, can you talk about your hair? Ahh! Yeah!! Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Yes, I will. It's a very interesting story. First of all, I actually did… Rinse my hair one. What happened… I had younger children, for my age. My first child was born when I was 32, my last one I was 39. So I was an older parent. And I remember my hair growing out gray. And my youngest son said, “Mom, why don't you dye your hair?” And remember now, he was around a lot of the younger parents, with blonde, bleach-blonde, or brown hair, whatever… I said, “Dye my hair? Why?” He said, “That way, it'd make you look younger. You oughta give it a try.” Remember now, he was in seventh grade, I believe it was. And so, I was like, “Well…” I just kinda didn't want to do that. He mentioned it again, and I said why not. I went in, got my hair rinsed, because I knew it would wash out after a certain amount of washes. It looked amazing! It did. I loved it, I loved it, I loved it. I'm kinda lazy though! (Laughs) I'm kinda lazy when it comes to even dealing with the hair. I loved it for the moment. You know, I'm happy that I did it. But when it grew out, I was okay. I did this, he thought it was amazing, everyone thought it was amazing. But it wasn't to the point where I could see myself in the chair, every what, six or eight weeks, getting my hair redone. Nobody said anything else about it from that point. So that was it! It went from a streak of gray right here, in the middle. That streak, years ago, my mom used to say… It was auburn color when I was growing up. She said “It'll be the first part of your hair that turns gray.” Yes, I had those lovely brothers that called me, you know, skunk! There was a cartoon Josie and the Pussycats. One of the ladies on there had that hair… But anyway, it continued on. I just went back, after a while. I said, “I love it!” I get compliments. An it's so amazing. Over the years, I've gotten more compliments from men versus women. That was shocking. I was like, “What?” That was pretty interesting. I've just kept it. I love it. It's just easy. And just went from there. Yeah, that's my hair! Love my hair. And if I had to do it over again, I'd probably do the same. Yeah, that's great. All right, so I've seen you've done a lot of collaborations. You've been featured, you've been an ambassador… There's so much! Can you talk about all of that? Wow… It started with hair. Different companies, that's where it started. I'm very happy about that. It was during a time where you just did not see women with gray hair, being featured for anything! So it started there, which… That was wonderful. It should have always been a part. When I think about the collaborations, I love the fact that the majority of them kept that in mind: it was because of the gray hair. That's why I was chosen in the first place, with a lot of them. With some of them, it's hard on your hair, because by your hair being this light, certain products turn it green or blue or… (Laughs) We had to learn what did and did not work! So that was kinda interesting, because if you're gonna collaborate with people and you try the products… I like to be transparent. I'm not gonna sit here and say a product is super great if it's NOT! Especially when I'm talking to women with light hair, white or silver hair. I always try my products. I let them know, “Hey, I have to do this for a week or two, so I can at least see some kind of reaction.” Then it moved on to facial products, and then it just became collaborations with a little bit of both. Even with that… If it's gonna break me out, you know, I'm gonna like, “Okay…!?” I show a picture of it, but I probably won't talk a whole lot about it. Because I don't want to deceive people when I get products, just to get paid. I would prefer not getting paid for it, if I could just jump in front of my audience and say, “Yeah! This product works!” This and that. No, I don't work like that. As a matter of fact, there's one I'm working on now, and I've only had it for like a week. “Oh, when you gonna come out?” I said, “I haven't used it long enough!” (Laughs) I said, “I'll do it so-and-so time.” But yes, I like doing the collaborations. I do a few that are free, but the majority of them I do get paid for them. Yes. Awesome. Yeah. I just put one out now, it's with Moderna. I've done one previously with the others, so… It's pretty good. I'm trying to get to a point where you know, when I retire next time around, I don't have to go back to teaching. So after a while, you're kinda like, “Oh it's that time again.” Yeah, what was it like to have the first one? Was it surprising to get an email? Or… What was your reaction to that? It was like, “Oh goodness!” I think the very first ambassador was Fly Hip and Ageless. Wow! That was so cool! And I'm like, “Okay!!” You know… But that was so amazing. I was very excited about that. You've probably heard of them, Fly Hip and Ageless. So that was my first ambassador one. Probably… I'm trying to think back. There's been a lot of them. It's exciting! And it's still exciting, after years! And you're excited because the people see you, notice you, and figure, she is… We like what she does well enough to even want to communicate with her. I do pick and choose! There are a lot of scammers out there, yes. They'll put in, “You're from this, we're from that.” And you have to really be careful with that. Check emails, check links, you check all those things before you jump into it. That's the harder part, and I'm glad I have young children! (Laughs) Cause they say, “Mom, that's a fake account! Check that again.” Or they check it for me. And sometimes if it sounds too good to be true, it IS too good to be true. But that said, there have been a lot of really good ones, that you would think, “Yeah, sure.” And they're really good ones, and legit! So, just have to be real careful. I'm very, very picky about that. Because… Yeah, you don't want your information out there to be stolen. Even though a lot of it gets stolen anyway! (Laughs) You do your best to not let it get stolen. Yeah, interesting… I also see that you're into yoga too? You know, I'm into a healthy lifestyle. Let's put it that way. Yoga… I was a ballet dancer… Oh my goodness, pretty much the last dance I did I was like 30 years old. So, I just do what makes me feel good. I love stretching! Being limber. I do yoga moves, I do ballet moves. I do some strength training, jogging… So I kinda just, at this age, I mix what's best for me. Stretching is the most important part. I can do that, I've learned all of that, and I just put it together, and work with it in ways that makes it great for me. You know? I would show it, yes, I do the yoga poses. Did I learn how to do the splits from yoga? No, I learned that from dance! You know what I'm saying? Or my backbend was from my acrobat… I used to be into acrobatics when I was younger. And I just kept up with them over the years. And yes, at 66, I can still do a backbend. Yes, I can still do the splits! Cartwheel, you know, those kinds of things. I just kept up with it over the years, because it just made me feel good. At the time it wasn't because of my Instagram. It was because I wanted to do it, and prove things to myself. Hey, can I still do this? And yes. I keep it up. I can't just specify one thing that I do. It's a blend. It's a blend of all that I've learned over the years. Read the full transcript on wisenotwithered.com!

Welcome to the Wise Not Withered Podcast! This is Season 4, and we are at Episode 5. So this month's guest was Coco Mitchell, who is a model! She has been in the industry for many, many years, and I found her on Instagram! I honestly can't remember what I was even searching for, but I found it really inspiring that there was an older women—there are still many older women who are continuing to model, and are really in it still. I'm gonna let her tell her own story. I honestly did not do a lot of research before contacting her, which she actually called me out on, which I was appreciative of. She is super, super accomplished. She has been all over the world, working with some of the really big names in fashion, which I don't really know much about, but I definitely learned a lot from her. She just really has such an incredible story. Coco Mitchell is just so warm, and friendly. She's so brave and humble, and she's truly just such a truth-teller. My admiration for her grew with everything she shared. So I hope you feel just as inspired as I was, talking to Coco Mitchell, as you listen to her tell her really amazing story. All right, is it Coco Mitchell? Am I saying your name right? Yes. All right, so let's just get right into it. Thank you so much for joining us on the Wise Not Withered Podcast. What is your age? Thank you for having me, and I would rather not share my age. Okay. I mean, during the course of this conversation, you will probably figure it out, but in the meantime, it's not something that I do readily. And the reason is… Yeah. Because I'm still IN the fashion business. And if I share my age, with that comes a price tag. Oh… You understand? Yeah, I've been modeling for 40+ years. Right. And because of that, I think in terms of dollars and cents. And when I first started in this business, the thing that drew me to it was that I could make money, and that I could travel. And before I started working, I was a teacher. I taught 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade in New York City. Oh wow! Yeah! I graduated from college, I'm walking down the New York City block. And this woman comes up to me, introduces herself. Her name is Eileen Ford. And she says to me, she asks me if I had a book. I said, “I have lots of books!” And she started laughing, and I'm thinking, “Why is she laughing?” Cause I think everything is funny. I don't take offense at anybody, or anything, because I don't know you, you don't know me. So she says to me, “I mean a book with pictures in it.” And I said to her, “Why would I have that? I'm a teacher. Actually, on my way to becoming a teacher. I'm graduating from college.” And she's like, “What?” And she asks me, “Well, how much are you going to make as a teacher?” And my first job was going to be in a Catholic school, here in Manhattan, in New York City, and I was going to $227 every two weeks. I was proud! And she said, “What? You could make that as a model, every 15 minutes.” And all I could think of was, “Okay, whatever. I just graduated from college, and this woman is telling me this. But this is not important to me.” And so you know, I took her phone number, I took her card, blah blah blah. And I started my teaching career. And I'm teaching in this school, and I have no money. None. And I'm living in Manhattan, in a little matchbox apartment. And I'm walking from 98th Street to 25th Street, every day, back and forth. No money, going to my mom's house to get food to put in the refrigerator. And since I'm working in a Catholic school, I don't really have to have a lot of clothing. So here I am, doing this. And then I'm like, “Lord, is this what I'm supposed to do the rest of my life?” And all I could remember is, I think God is saying, “Call Eileen.” I look for the card, I called her up, she sets up an appointment. I go and I sit and I talk with her. And she's talking… And you know Charlie Brown, when somebody is talking, and it's like, “Wah-wah-wah-wah-wah”? And that's what it was! I'm sitting there, and this woman is talking about people taking pictures of you, and you're gonna get paid for it. And it sounded ludicrous! And when she said, “You can travel, see the world, and make money.” I said, “Okay, sign me up!” I always wanted to travel. I grew up in a family with five brothers, a sister, a grandmother, and a mother. And we lived in a house. We didn't have a car. We were not on food stamps, but we did not have a car. We didn't drink sodas. There was no luxury items. Growing up, I would go home, straight from school. So I think that's the reason that I didn't know what a model was, because I didn't sit with friends, looking through magazines. Right. I didn't know that the people in those magazines, that was a job. I thought they were just good-looking people. (Laughs) Wow. Yeah! So when she told me that, I said, “Okay, sign me up.” I started working as a model. I shot Madmoiselle and Glamour magazine, and it all seemed very nice… It took forever to get my first job. And I'm saying to myself, okay, I'm in this business. Right, cause it's a business. And I'm already like twenty-four years old, so I'm not stupid. I graduated from college. But I wanted to live some place… Originally I'm from Tampa, Florida. And I wanted to live some place where there was sky, and there's a beach. So I said to her, I don't feel comfortable going on all these appointments, going in these big buildings, walking around like a mole in a maze… I need the sky, I need the sun, I need the beach. She's looking at me like I'm crazy. And I said, “Is there any place else I can go?” And she's like, “You can go to Florida, or you can go to California.” Well since my family is from Florida… My parents are Cuban. And Cuban people are very strict. You don't go here, you don't do this, you don't do that. And I said, no! I want to live my life! I'll go to Los Angeles! So here I am… I go to Los Angeles. I'm fairly new in this business. I don't know anything about it. All I knew is that I'm gonna live life on my own terms. I'm a grown-up, right. So I go to L.A. and I live there, and I love it. I lived there seven years. Should I keep talking? Mhm! Cause this is almost kinda like my story. Yeah, you're definitely already answering some of my questions, so please keep going! So here I am, in L.A. It's wonderful. I go on casting… I meet the most incredible photographers, and make-up and hair people. I don't have a car. I don't know you have to have a car in L.A. back in… It was the early 80's. I don't know anything! All I know is that I will not be able to work if I don't have a car. But how do you get a car if you don't have money? And because I was raised very… How do you say, very humbly. But no guilt, no shame. Nothing. Knowing that my mother and grandmother did their best to put food on the table. So how am I gonna make money? And I would meet people, you know. And I met this woman, and she was on her way to a beauty salon. So I asked the owner if I could work there. And he's like, “Well, do you do hair?” And I said, “No. Is there anything else I could do?” And he said, “Well, you could sweep the hair up off the floor.” And I'm thinking, “Okay! I need money.” And I think most people, because of pride, because of shame… Because of already having worked for Glamour magazine, and Essence magazine, and Madmoiselle, I should think more highly of myself, which I don't. I had to be humble. So I swept up hair for a whole year. I graduated to be shampoo girl. (Laughs) In L.A. And then I get a little raggedy car. And I start to go to visit my agent. And they start sending me on appointments, and castings, and all of this stuff. And I started working there. And that's where I really learned how to be a model. And because of all the wonderful people that I met, some of the photographers… My pictures would be in my books, and when they would go to Europe, people would see the pictures, and that's how I got a chance to go to Europe. That's another story. And I lived there for twelve years. The first year I was living in L.A. and they would send for me to do a job in Florence, with a really famous photographer. His name was Aldo Fallai. And I would work with him. And I said to myself, “The next time the send me to Florence, I'm staying!” Because it's my life, right? I don't know how this modeling business really works, where you're supposed to just do what they tell you. So I stayed there for a year, I learned to speak Italian, and I was studying art. And my agent calls me, she's like, “What are you doing??” I said, “I'm learning Italian, I'm studying art—” She's like, “You're a model!! What? No! If you're gonna stay in Italy, you have to go to Milan!” And I'm thinking, “Milan? What is Milan?” So I leave… (Laughs) This is like, hysterical! I go to Milan, and I'm thinking, “Okay, I have no idea… But at least I speak Italian! I have no idea what these people want from me.” Because it's not as if it was like, my biggest dream to be a model, you know? It was a means to an end as far as I was concerned. So now I'm in Milan, and I go, and they send me to see Giorgio Armani, and he says, “Walk.” And I'm like, “What is he saying…?” He doesn't speak English, he's saying, walk. What is that? So I get up, and just walk across the floor, like whatever, you know. He sits down. He calls my agent, and he says to my agent, “Is she retarded?” Oh! And my agent says to me, “Coco, what is wrong?” “I don't know what he wants.” “He wants you to walk.” “I don't know how, what walk??” “All black girls know how to walk!” And I was thinking, “I am in trouble!” He says, “Okay, act like you have on your mother's high heels. You have a purse, and you have a scarf.” And I'm thinking, “He doesn't know how old I am. He probably thinks I'm eighteen.” So I stand up, I go up on my toes, I throw the scarf—the fake scarf—and I have the purse. And I walk like I'm a little girl, looking in the mirror. Well, Armani is laughing. My agent just told me that it's three shows. $15,000 a show. I don't care if Armani is laughing. I want the money. Yeah. Like Eileen said, I could help my family. So I got the shows. That first season in Milan, I did fifteen shows. Wow! Not knowing how to walk at all. The only thing that saved me was the fact that they didn't tape the shows. There was no monitor backstage, where you could see that I was a total wreck. And it was really crazy! And at the end of the show, this photographer comes up to me—this Italian photographer. And he says, “Who are you?” And I'm looking, and kinda laughing to myself, and I say, “I'm Coco Mitchell!” He says, “You're horrible!” All I could think of, is that he's right! I am! He's like, “Are you going to Paris?” I say, “Yes!” He says, “Don't go.” So I'm like, “But I want to go.” He's like, “Okay. Here's my card.” Here's another card someone hands me out of nowhere. That's why I believe in God, cause it's all providence. “Call me when you get there.” In the 80's, the shows were all elevated. The runway was higher than the people in the audience. And the photographers at the end of the runway were in what they call the “pit”. Well, that season, I was in the pit with this photographer—all stinky, sweaty photographers—and he's showing me… I have a bird's eye view of how it really looks. I could see the girls coming from back stage, walking, and I'm thinking, “That's how they walk!? Wow!” So he's just like, “Take it in. Look. Study this. You should be doing these shows, but you can't walk like this forever. Somebody's gonna find out.” So what I did was I kinda taught myself. The next season, I went back to Milan, I worked in Milan. I worked in Milan, and then I worked in Paris, and then I decided, “I'm going to live here.” And that's what I did. I worked for Yves Saint Laurent, Christian Dior, Givenchy, Versace, Armani… Anybody that you could think of, I've worked for. Wow. Only because, I had no shame. I did not take offense. I don't know you, you don't know me. And in this business, you have to have so much courage, because the way that people will treat you… Is horrible. You have to decide what you… I mean, I decide what I want to do, and how I want to be treated. And if someone is not nice, I will not work for them. I don't care. You know? Yeah. And it all has to do with—for me—just taking my own stance. To this day, forty plus years later, I'm still working. It's no longer a career, it's now a job. And now that I have this job, what do I do with this job? Why am I still doing this, Lord? And the reason is, I have to be in the room. I have to be in the room. I have to… Not even to just share my story, being the first black woman in Sports Illustrated—1986. Wow! Being one of the first black women to do a campaign for Revlon, which was called Polished Ambers, the first black line of cosmetics. Not to share so much those things that I've done, but to share the fact that, if you want to do something—I believe this—then you have to stick with it, you have to be persistent, and you have to always be training and teaching yourself, if you want to stay in the game. And I want to be in the game, like, “Put me in, coach! I'm ready.” But you can't be ready if you don't train. And so I still watch all the shows online. I still look at all the magazines. I still look at everything. Because when the door opens, I want to be able to walk through the door, and ask for the amount of money that I want. Yeah. And that kind of is my story. That's really who I am, and that's the way that I was raised, to not really give other people the power. Cause you don't have power over me, you know? Growing up, we were not religious. But there's no way that my mother and grandmother could do what they did without giving God the credit. And that's the way that I grew up, always knowing that He is in charge, no matter how it looks, good or bad. And it all depends on how I react, you know. That's always been who I am. So… Do you have any questions? (Laughs) Yeah, that was amazing! Thank you so much. I feel like I learned so much just from all of that. Thank you, thank you, yeah… That's been my life. It's been an amazing journey, you know. Even talking to you. If I didn't do this job, how would you even want to call me and find out who I am? And then talking with you, maybe it'll encourage some other person. Yeah! Not a worn and withered person, but you know, just everybody! What we learn in our life is not just for our demographic—it's for everybody! It's to uplift and encourage, and also… Like I said, I could be very direct, but just learning how to approach people and get your point across without chopping off someone's head. (Laughs) You know, that kind of thing. That's what I had to learn, just how to… It's like, navigating through life. How do you get what you want, without being offensive, or being offended. Mm… Oh wow, yeah! And that's always my goal. Every morning when I leave. When I walk out my door, first thing I say is, “Why am I leaving my house? What is the reason? Am I going to be triggered by some crazy person on the streets of New York City?” It's hard out here! (Laughs) Yeah. Yeah, so… You know. It's armor. It's my armor, that's what I put on. I put on the armor of “Let's get it done. What is the reason? What's the purpose? Why show up?” Mm, mhm. Why am I sitting here? Why? What?? You know… And the other thing that I want to share with you… You know, all of this inclusivity, and diversity. I hate these words! Yeah? It's like… Why? Stop talking about it, and be about it! Just do it! These things should have been happening forever. Right. But now, because people got killed… George Floyd. All of these people, things are online now. And you see people being murdered. And now, it's time to do something about it. Which should have been happening before, you know? It's really hard to hear, you know, these “inclusivity” and “diversity”… But inclusivity and diversity without the proper amount paid to you. That's what I don't like. I don't like the fact that companies have to have black people, Asian people, brown people. And now you don't pay top dollar, you just get someone off the street, and you pay them pennies, and then you think you're gonna pay me pennies! No! And that's my stance on the whole thing. I think that, okay, if you don't have the experience, then you take a dollar. But if you want someone with experience, with this whole inclusivity, diversity, body positivity, all of that, you have to pay! And this is one of my… You know, carrying that flag! Yes! Worn and withered, but not dead! (Laughs) You know, I did a job for Estée Lauder, right after the lockdown. And I'm on set, and I have no makeup on. I have really good skin, thank God. And the girl standing next to me has on a beautiful blouse. I have on a camisole. And the girl standing next to me is maybe twenty-five, Asian, and she has a beautiful blouse on. She has on glamorous makeup. Her hair looks fabulous. And then the woman standing next to her, maybe forty years old, and she has on a beautiful blouse, fabulous makeup, gorgeous hair, and I look like I'm going to do the laundry! What is that saying to women of a certain age?? So I walk off the set, I'm standing behind them, praying like, “Lord, I have to say something.” Because I don't feel comfortable. Now I could've just did what they want me to do, take the money, and go home… And I want to know why! I want to know why. Because I go to events. I go to the ballet, I go to the opera. I go out to dinner. I wear makeup. I buy clothing! And you have me looking… What does this mean? What does this say? So I'm like, “Lord, how do I say this?” And they're like “Coco! Oh she's over there.” So I go back on set. And this is when all of the big TV screens, with all the faces, were right there on set. Cause you know, it's the lockdown, covid, blah blah blah. So I'm like okay. I walk off the set again, I walk over to the big screens, and I say… I'm very dramatic. And when I'm passionate about something, it's like, “I have to something to say!” And I said, “I have to say this. I don't understand what you're trying to say.” And I said, “My people are not going to be happy. And I'm not talking about black people. I'm talking about women of a certain age. What are you saying to us? Are you telling me that I don't buy Estée Lauder makeup? That I don't wear beautiful clothing? That I don't go out? I just… Stay home, and… Do what?” And then I just walked away from the screen and got back on the set. They started screaming, “Take Coco off the set! Put makeup on her! Give her something else to put on!” So I'm like, “Okay, thank you, Lord.” Cause they could've said, “Whatever, girl. Whatever, lady! This is what we're doing.” Yeah, wow! So they put these clothes on me, they glammed me up, right. I still get paid for the usage of this image that's being used. Friends send me from London, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong, on the Estée Lauder counters—that image of me and those two other women. Now if I didn't speak up… I mean… I have to speak up. I could've lost the job forever. But that's the chance you take! I mean, you have to be… Everyone will not be able to do it. And I think I was chosen to do this job. Cause I didn't ask for it! I was chosen on the streets of New York. I was chosen to do this job, and to stay in it, to speak up, for people who are afraid to speak up. Otherwise it'll be a Me Too situation all over, we're just going along, to keep our jobs… You know? I have to pay the rent, too. Thank God I learned how to save money. But everyone is not going to speak up. So if I feel I can, I'll speak for you. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think that happens because the way that I was raised, and watching my mother, and raising money… She belonged to all these different organizations, getting senators and congressmen elected into the government—black senators and black congressmen, when we weren't there! So I feel like, I have to pay homage to my mother for standing up. Yeah. Yeah, so that's really who I am. It's all beautiful, it's all very glamorous, and sometimes it's not. It's hard work! But all of that aside, I'm just a normal person who got chosen to do a beautiful thing, and who's allowed to still say how she feels, and take the consequences, you know? Yeah. I was doing a job for L.L.Bean. And I work for them all the time, and all of a sudden… I walk in, and the clothes… It's like, I don't know how many pieces… It had to be a hundred and fifty pieces of things that I'm supposed to wear. And I'm thinking, “I've worked for them before. I've never worn more than twenty.” Wow… And I'm thinking, something is wrong here. No one says anything… And I have a lot of energy, for my age—which I'm not telling you! (Laughs) So here I am, I'm trying my best. But I'm thinking, this is not right! So I come from behind the little makeshift fitting room, dressing room. And I said, “Okay, slavery is over. I have called my Uber. And I'm out of here.” Everyone's looking at me like I was crazy. I get to the hotel, my agent calls me, “You said—you were talking about slavery!?” I said, “Okay, wait a minute! I'm a black woman, and I can talk about slavery.” They had almost a hundred… You know, L.L.Bean. Shoes, socks, pants, jacket, sweater, blouse, hat… What?? And she's like, “Well, Coco, you just walked off! Why didn't you call me?” I said, “Because I was mad at you. Because you sent me there. They didn't tell you?” She's like, “Oh, I didn't know! But they'll never use you again!” I said, “I will never work for them again! You don't get it!” And she's like, “But Coco, sometimes the girls do it because they have to pay their phone bill.” I said, “Jenny, when I was in my twenties, one hand was the phone bill, the other hand was, do I buy Louboutin, or Manolo Blahnik shoes or pay the phone bill? I would buy the shoes.” I said, “I am no longer that age. I don't have to worry about paying my phone bill. So you give those jobs to those girls. And don't ever send me to any place like that again.” But, because I've worked for this company before, I was blind-sided. I DMed the art director, the man in charge. I said, “Greg, what was that?????” And I put ten question marks, exclamation. I put #YouPlayedMe #ImNotHappy. He DMs me back, he's like, “Coco, is this message for me?” And I'm like, yes. Now I can tell him what happened. Because nobody ever asked me what happened! My agent's not speaking up for me. They only care to keep the client. So if they can fill my spot with another girl, they don't care! That's the whole thing about this business. It's not personal. They don't care about you! Right. So if you think they do, you're in trouble! So I told him everything. He apologized. He said, “I am so sorry. If we did anything, you should have been booked for two days.” He said, “But that was called e-commerce.” I said, “Don't even mention that word to me.” He's like, “We will never book you for that again. We would love to continue to work with you. I am so sorry!” Do you know I just came back from Colorado, shooting with them? Okay. Now if I didn't speak up, everything would have been… The woman is crazy. She's ungrateful. Whatever! I don't know what they might be thinking. But I had to set the record straight. I'm saying all of these things, these are examples of taking a chance and speaking up! Yeah. And all the young models that I know, now when they go to L.L.Bean, they know that that might be waiting for them, so they have to let their agents know. They can use my name, I don't care! “Coco Mitchell said…” (Laughs) So… I kept my client, I kept my dignity, and I'm working for them this coming week in New York. But if I didn't say anything, it would've just like, “Oh well, another client…” Yeah, dang… Yeah, that's… I don't know. I think that's why I'm in the room. Even if they had stopped working with me, at least I said my piece. And at least they could think about us models as human beings, not just something to use. And you know, after covid, everything is sort of digital. The advertisers don't want to pay, the retailers don't want to pay. Everyone wants to make a dollar, and they want to spend a dime doing it. And it's not fair! Yeah. So that's me griping. (Laughs) No, I love it! That's so inspiring. Thank you. I want to be inspiring. I don't want to come across as bitter, because I'm not. I'm not bitter about anything. My whole life has been just so amazing. And to continue doing this job that I love, I'm like, “Why am I still doing it?” I do it because what other job can you have where you don't see the same people every day? You always meet someone new. You always have a chance to learn from someone and leave something with them, you know? It's amazing! It's amazing. It's a wonderful job. Sometimes it's not so wonderful, but at the same time, that's what you signed up for! Wow… Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. You're welcome! I guess a little bit lighter, outside of your job, what are some hobbies or other interests that you have? Hobbies… Well, you know, I love the ocean. Yeah! I love the beach! I love the fact that I live near two rivers: the East River, and the Hudson River. And on the Hudson River you can do what they call paddle boarding. You can kayak. You can join different clubs. I've kayaked from New York to New Jersey, across the Hudson River, which is a very strong current. (Laughs) Dang!! That was crazy! But you know, you have to train. And I used to run marathons, but not anymore. I wish I had started that earlier. Because I would have run marathons around the world. You know, go to Spain and do a marathon. But the New York marathon is pretty major. It's long… 26.2 miles—I think that's a marathon! Yeah, I think so. And I did three of them! Oh wow! Oh my gosh. Yeah, each one was to raise money for different organizations. So that's why I ran. And it wasn't running to win. It was running to be a part of… A marathon is like an amazing, living, breathing organism, where you feel… You know, you're training to do this thing. I'm not an athlete like that. But you feel… The support that you get from all of the people that you meet. And you run around Central Park, and you meet different people, and there's all these different clubs of… You know, encouragers! It's amazing! So my main hobbies are walking all around New York City. That's what I've been doing since 8 o'clock this morning. I just walk the neighborhood. I just wanted to see how it looked without all the people. And, you know, that's really what I do. And being around my family. That's kind of a hobby in itself. And your family—does that include like, your siblings, or do you have children, or cousins? I don't have children. And I think you know, because I've just traveled for the last I think thirty-five years of my life… Yeah, wow! This is the first time, with covid, I've nested! I literally live in my apartment. I literally have furniture. I bought a Swedish bed that cost so much money… And yeah! I live here. I live here… But you don't know how hard it is… I keep saying, “Am I supposed to be here? I would really rather be in Paris…” You know, I feel the itch! I have siblings—my sister. All my siblings live in Florida. I have nieces and nephew, who are all very creative people. One of my nieces, she's a stunt woman! Whoa! Yeah! She was in Black Panther! Oh, cool! She was one of the women with the bald head, the warriors. And she also did the stunts for Viola Davis, woman king. Amazing. She's doing a movie right now—I forget what it is. They're shooting it in New Jersey, or some place. And she's done lots of TV stuff… And I have a nephew, he's a singer. And one of my nieces, she's a tattoo artist. She lives in Colombia. She travels all over the world, doing tattooing. And she's been in all these tattoo TV shows, and all of that kind of crazy stuff. And they all say, “It's because of you!! You encourage that we do these things!” And I'm like, “Thank you! Wow!” I didn't realize I was such an inspiration. Yeah! I could see that. Yeah. You know, when you leave your own country, and you go and you forge a place for yourself in a land that you've never been to. You don't speak the language… And people don't really ask you, “How did you get around?” Because you really… The agency just gives you a list, and you have to go! Well, how do you go? And people don't really ask, “How did you do that? How did you do it?” You just have to do it. You get together with other girls who are just as scared as you are, and a lot younger… Half of them were half my age. And you know, you just sit down, and you map it out. And you all go together. It's been fun! My mother traveled with me, and stayed with me many months. It's been great. So no, never married, never had kids… I've been engaged! A couple of times… But I am such a… I don't know what it is. People talk about signs and stuff. I'm Aquarius, so I don't really see things the way a lot of people see things. I think, really, outside of the box. I don't let a lot of things worry me. And I'm always just kind of positive, and upbeat. So… I think, even all of the boyfriends I've had, and even the fiancées. The problem has always been, “What are you talking about?” And not being understood… So I'm like, I don't know if I could live like that. I can't acquiesce—my character is too strong. Yeah. So… That's it. That's really who I am. Yeah… Wow. I guess just a couple more questions. How do you define success? How do I define success? Success… I think, for me, success is not about how much money… I think I kinda said this earlier. It's not about how much money you made, but it's the impact you made on the people that you were around when you were making that money. That's success to me. I mean, anybody in this fashion business that you might know by name, I know personally. And each one knows that when I'm in the room, you cannot be rude, you can't be judgmental, you can't put people down. You can't talk to a makeup artist or hairdresser any which way you want. No! And that's success to me. That impact that I make on your life. That's what success is. And, at the same time, you know, it's getting all those jobs. Cause when I go out for a job, I want the job. I want it. And that's success—getting it. Knowing that you deserve it, too. I deserve this! I didn't just say, “I want it” and not work hard for it. So I think that's what success is. Yeah, amazing. Putting your nose to the grindstone and doing the hard work—behind the scenes. And then reaping the success from that. Okay. Yeah! Thank you. And one last thing… What are you currently looking forward to? Wow… I ask myself that every day. Every day! What is next? What is next! I mean, we see that the way the world is moving, right? I mean, as far as… I have a very close friend, and he does the Amazon marketplace, and he does all of this stuff. And he's already taught me how to box… You know, helping him, boxing, and tagging, and labeling. And that's part of the entrepreneurial part of this world that we live in now. It's just a matter of… Do I want to do that? I think I still want to travel the world, see new things, and just keep it moving, until I can't walk anymore. Ah, I love that! That's what I want! I just want to live my life the way I want to live it. And I don't know where that's going to take me. I don't know what that is. But I know that just… Every day, you know. If you keep your eyes open… If I keep my eyes open, it's always happened that somewhere down the line, the trajectory always turns. It's like a river. It always leads me someplace else. And I'm looking for that turn that's about to happen. And that's the answer to that question. I have no idea! None. But at the same time, I'm free! I don't have kids, I don't have a husband. I don't have anything tying me to anything! Unlike a lot of people, I'm just grateful for the fact that I do what I want, when I want, how I want, as long as I want. And when I don't want to do it, I don't do it! Right, yeah. And that's… I have no idea. Answer question: I don't know! (Laughs) Yeah! Amazing. Wow, do you have any final thoughts? I think you pretty much answered all of my questions, just through telling your story. I just want to thank you for having me. Thank you for reaching out. And thank you for understanding that everyone ages. And this is one of the things I was on set doing… I do a lot of beauty shoots. You see a lot of young women sitting on their computers. Because when you're shooting, everything is almost finished before they even leave the situation that day. It's already in the can. It's already done. So I always want to say now, and I thank you for this, is that they have to know. Young women have to know that eventually they are going to get older. What are you doing now to prepare the world for you getting older? Hm… Because if we just sit on it… It's like that Estée Lauder job. You are going to tell me that now, this is what I do? This is who I am? I don't do anything. I'm just… Worn. Useless. Like I just did a job for Macy's. And they had me in these clothes… I mean, I've worn the best clothes in the world, by the best designers in the world. And they had me in this… I'm telling you, I'm not complaining, but I couldn't understand it. A top, a sweater, and some pants. None of it looked like it went together! And I said, “I'm really having a hard time. Who is this woman?” Cause how can I do the job if I don't know who I am? Yeah. They said, “Oh, well, she's retired. And she's gardening.” And I'm thinking, “Okay, that's gonna stretch me a lot, because I'm not retired. And I don't garden.” But that's who they're saying that we are. How old are you? Can you say? Yeah, I'm actually 31. So you're young! I love you! I'm talking to YOU! You have to set the stage. By the time you're my age… I am… (does math) years older than you. Okay? So… Do the math. By the time you're my age, the world should look differently for you! I mean, I sure hope so. No, you're doing the work! Keep doing the work. Just keep doing the work! Women… We can do anything! We can last longer than… We can live to be one-hundred-twenty years old! Still doing stuff! But if we allow them to retire us… Then that's it. You know, all those women that forged the way for you, and me? They will not be happy… The right to vote! You know how hard that was to get? I'm not talking about for black people, I'm talking about for women, back in the day! I mean, I don't! I cannot even fathom… But they did that, so that you can make sure that all of those rights are not taken away. You know, the right to be alive? You're gonna tell me that I'm retired? And I am shooting this thing to tell women that… This is all that's left? But I told them, “You owe me one! I want the beautiful clothes next time!” Yeah! I love that! You know, so that's the whole thing. Keep going, girl. I'm proud of you. Thank you. I'm proud of you. And I thank you for having me, and giving me the chance to tell my story, and just… Keep uplifting everybody. Not just women, but just… Everybody. Everyone. Okay? Yeah. So where can people find you? I know your social media is @cocomitchell3? Yes. Any other websites or links you want me to leave in the episode? Not really… No. That's enough. I put a lot of stuff on Instagram. Only because I realized at one point… I didn't know how important it was, until I would do a job, and I'd see a picture hanging up. And I'm like, “Where'd you get that picture?” They said, “From Instagram.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow! This is an important platform!” So Instagram is good enough. Cool. All right, well thank you so much! I'm looking forward to transcribing this! I'll talk with you soon! Just let me know how everything works. Just send me a text every now and then, “Coco, hi!” Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, so every now and then, just shoot me a text, “Hey Coco, when are you coming to New Orleans?” Yeah, that's where I am! Okay, I'll talk to you soon! Okay, thank you! Bye! Thank you! Bye!

Welcome to Season 4 of the Wise Not Withered Podcast! We are back with interviewing interesting women who are doing some really cool things! Today's guest is Ann Chikahisa, creator of Chikahisa Studio. In our interview, Ann talks about how she got started making jewelry, the ways that jewelry can move through generations in a family, "Creative Zen", challenges, successes, and future plans. Check out chikahisastudio.com to purchase Ann's beautiful handmade jewelry, and follow her on Instagram, @chikahisastudio!   ~   Wise Not Withered - Interview With Ann Chikahisa   Your name—is it Ann or Ann [pronunciation]? Ann. Ann, okay. And is it Chikahisa? Yes, that's perfect! Okay, excellent, cool! Yay, I said it right! Okay, just to start off, how old are you? I am 59! 59, awesome. Can you describe the work that you do? I am a jeweler. I hand make jewelry for women who like to stand out in the crowd. And how did you get into that? It just began as a passion. I was taking classes at an art studio, making jewelry. When you talk to any metalsmith, pretty much everybody gets bitten by the bug, and they become obsessed, like I did. There's something very alchemic about it—just working with a piece of metal, and then turning it into a piece of jewelry. So that's how I started. I was taking classes at a local jewelry studio, and then I started making jewelry for all my friends, giving it to them for birthday presents or whatever, and then a friend of mine said, “Oh, you should sell your jewelry!” One thing led to another—she threw a trunk show for me, and that's how the business began! Nice! And did you say a trade show? Trunk show. So my friend invited a bunch of friends over to her house, and I put my jewelry out, and I was very, very fortunate a lot of people loved it and bought it that night. And that's how the business began. Okay, yeah. Nice! And how has it changed over time? Well when I first started making jewelry, I did beading. So I bought gem stones and bindings—things that were already pre-made—and put them together. So that's how I first began. And then I had so much fun mixing metals and mixing materials that I decided that I wanted to learn how to actually make those pieces instead of buying them pre-made. And that's when I took the art classes. And so as I've taken more classes, and made my own style and voice, my jewelry has progressed over the years, and has become much more defined in terms of my own personal style and signature look. You kind of find your rhythm and find out who you really are when you're an artist. And sticking with that point of view and that voice has been really fun. So it's like a road of self-discovery to figure out who you are, and how you wanna tell the world who you are through your art. Yeah. Oh, that's great. You mentioned on your website learning from your mother, who learned from her mother. Can you talk more about that generational teaching and learning? Yeah, in Japanese culture—I'm third generation Japanese American. In Japanese culture, the arts are very, very prominent. In our culture, we really look for beauty in everything that we do. We surround ourselves with beauty. So it's been handing down through the generations in my family. When I say that quote about I learned from my mother, who learned from her mother… My grand-mother on both sides, they did Japanese flower arranging, which is called ikebana. They also were sewers, made their own clothing, and did all kinds of things with their hands. My grandmother also did some beadwork, made little handbags. So she did all those kinds of things, and taught my mother. My mother was very big on sewing, and knitting, and those kinds of things. As a child, I learned all of those skills from my mother. So it's just been ingrained in our family history and our culture. Yeah, nice, okay. Let's see… So you talked about— Can you hold on one second? What's going on, if you don't mind my asking? We're working in the studio—my assistant was pounding and stuff, so I didn't know if you could hear it. Oh! Oh, cool yeah, I couldn't. It must be the Air Pods. Okay, good. All right! Yeah, so you make a lot of it yourself, but you also have assistants that help you out too? Yep. I have one assistant. She works like three-quarter time with me. She helps me put together things for the store—helps me supply the pieces for our online shop. Okay, nice! So you mentioned learning from your grandmother and your mother. Are there any other really influential mentors that you've had? Yeah, I do have people that have influenced my work, and influenced my style. It's been friends and other jewelers that I've worked with. I have favorite artists that have influenced my style and my aesthetic. Georgia O'Keefe is somebody I've always admired. I love her work. Calder is another person. I am just amazed by what he does with wire work, how he creates these beautiful sculptures and pieces of jewelry. Noguchi was a Japanese artist who did a lot sculptural work, and I love his work as well. It's both famous people and just people in my life that have influenced my work. Yeah, okay. And can you talk more about “Creative Zen”? I thought that was really interesting. (Laughs) Thank you. So for me, when I am working, there's a zone, that creative zone where you get into this space where time doesn't exist. And it's almost like mediating. You just get in this space of not thinking and not worrying, or anything. And you're just working. And it's the coolest experience, because you're really letting your inner voice and your inner spirit guide you on your design and what you're creating. And so it becomes part of you that comes out, because you're not thinking, you're not judging. That little inner critic voice, that comes out and says “Don't do this. Don't do that.” It's really getting into this flow and letting it happen. And it is so fun. When I get into that zone, and I start working, it could be eight hours, and it feels like ten minutes. It's such a fun place. And that's what I call my creative genius, because it's really you're just flowing and working and things come out that you never dreamed would come out, because you're not thinking about the outcome. You're just letting it happen. Right, yeah. Oh, I love that. How about on the flip side? What do you do when you don't feel as inspired? Which is a lot! (Laughs) You know, I will say, it is really hard to get into that zen zone. So when I'm not in that zone, and I'm trying to create, it's really, really hard, because it's like forcing something to happen. So to get back into that zone, or to try to feel into that again, I'll do a lot of walking. Just going out and walking, and letting my mind go. And I also do a lot of meditation, and that helps as well, because you're getting into that non-thinking, letting things go, kind of state. And yoga also is another powerful tool for me when I'm stuck creatively. Just moving that energy in my body to get back into that creative space, is basically what I'm trying to do. Whether with the walking, the yoga, or the meditation. Yeah, yeah. Getting out of your head and back into your body. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. How about your talisman pieces? Can you talk about those? Those were really cool, on your website. Thank you! That has become my most personal part of my collections. And it really was kind of a thing that just happened. I was going through a lot of major life changes, like most of us in our forties and fifties—life just changes. And so I needed something to help me through a big change, and I didn't know how else to do it. I was kind of at a loss. I just knew I needed something that I could hold close to me, that I could hang on to, to help me manifest my stability and my life, moving forward. So I decided to just make a piece. I wanted it to be artistic, and sculptural, and something that had a lot of meaning to me. And I didn't want it to be literal. So the first one I created was “Hope”. Because to me, if you don't have hope, you… There's nothing left in your world, right? You need hope to get you through the bad times. So I created the Hope talisman, it's got a little spinel in it—spinel represents hope. And I created it and I just started wearing it, and women responded to it. They liked it, commented on it. So I started designing more pieces, not only for them but also for me. Each one has a different meaning: strength, healing, reflection, compassion, wisdom… Each one has a different meaning, and it's like a little piece of art. And you can collect them, and put them together to help you manifest what you're working on at that particular moment, or that particular month, or time in your life. And the feedback has been great. I've gotten amazing messages back from my customers on how they were able to mark their journey and their life at that particular time with the talisman, or how it's helped them stay focused on meeting a goal that they were trying to bring into their life. So it's been really fun. I create maybe four of them a year, and each one is different. So it's an evolving process. It's fun for me, as well as for the customers, to collect them, and come up with new inspirations for their life. Yeah. Do you often do custom things for customers? In terms of the talismans, or just in general? I guess both! Maybe start with the talismans, and then in general. Okay. I haven't done a custom talisman, only because it takes a lot of time and energy to create one concept. So to do a one-off would not probably be too cost-effective. But I have done a lot of custom work in terms of personal jewelry. And how that usually works is I will take someone's old heirloom gems, and rework them into something new. And that's really rewarding for both of us—me and the customer. Jewelry is such… It travels through families, it becomes an heirloom. And it holds so much energy and meaning, to the person it's coming from, and who it's given to. But sometimes, the style isn't your style any longer, but you still want to hold that piece in your life, in your jewelry box. So I work with my clients in taking those old pieces and reworking them and fitting it into the look of what they will wear. Then they can pass it on to their children, or somebody that has meaning in their life that they want to share it with. So the gem will continue through the generations, and carry on. When we rework it, the iteration of it changes to fit that person's life at that current time. That's what's so cool about jewelry. It's an heirloom. I have a couple pieces from my grandmothers that are from the 1920's. They've gone through my mother's lifetime, and now my lifetime, and it will probably go to my son as well, and his children. So it's really cool to have your jewelry go on and live on beyond your lifetime. Yeah! I wanted to ask more specifically, if you wanted to talk about, which specific pieces are in your family? Yeah, I have three pieces that I really cherish. One is the engagement ring from my grandmother. It's a platinum vintage set ring, and I just love it. It's got this really delicate setting on it. It's not something that I would ever particularly wear, but I love it so much because it's from her, and she gave it to me before she passed away. And then my other grandmother gave me this really cool fresh water pearl vintage piece, also kind of in the same era… Probably early 40's, and it has that vintage look as well. And it's so beautiful, and I love wearing it. But I only wear it around the house, because I would be devastated if I wore it and I lost it. So I always wear that around the house. The third piece I love is this enamel pin that has a road runner on it that my father gave me. He never really ever bought me jewelry except for this piece, and one other. So I've had these since I was maybe thirteen or fourteen. I've just kept them in my jewelry box. It's so special that my father bought them for me, and I just cherish them. And he's no longer with us, so it's something that I hold and when I look at them, it brings back very fond memories. That's the power of jewelry! The energy of someone giving it to you, you remember when they gave it to you, and the meaning that it has in your life. Yeah. Maybe along the lines of losing your dad… What are some of the greatest challenges you've had in your life—whether in your business or just in general? Well… Obviously losing my dad was very hard, I was very young. Well not super young. I was twenty-eight. At the time, maybe you don't feel that young. But looking back I was very young. And the hardest thing is that he didn't get to see me grow up as an adult. He only knew me as a kid, really. He didn't get to see me progress in my career, and have a family, and all those kinds of things. More recently, I got divorced. That was really challenging. Trying to start my life again, and make sense of who I am and what I wanna do in the rest of the second half of my life, has been a big challenge. And then of course, having a business—owning and running a business is very challenging, yet very rewarding. I've learned so much about myself, about who I am, what I'm good at, what I'm not good at. And how to make decisions, learn from my mistakes. I've made lots of mistakes… I think one of the best things I've learned about having a business is surrounding myself with people who are smarter than me, that help me, teach me how to do things better. Because you can't do everything by yourself—you really need to have a team. And choosing that team has been really fun. I've met some amazing people, made some incredible relationships that have transformed not only me personally but also my business. So that's been really fun. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. How about some of your greatest successes? Some of my greatest successes… I think one of the biggest things I'm really proud of is taking my business from having no online sales a few years ago, to now generating almost all of my revenue through online sales. So that's been a long journey, a hard journey. But it's been so rewarding to know that if you just put your head down, and take baby steps, and figure out what works and what doesn't work… Just keep tweaking and staying with it, and having that resolve to do something. You can make it happen. So that's probably my biggest accomplishment, I would say. Okay, and how do you define success? Oh gosh… I think success is multifaceted. Of course, from a business standpoint, success is, you know, financial. Do I reach my goals? Have I made a profit? Those kinds of metrics. But I think for me also, what is most important is, how do I feel at the end of the day about what I'm doing? And am I living up to my values? Am I living up to my vision? And those are two really big metrics for me in terms of success and how I run my business. So they go kind of hand-in-hand, right? I couldn't be successful if I didn't make money–because then it would be a hobby. And then how do I run the business financially to make money but also still hold those values? Right. And if you're willing to share, what are some of those values? So for me, one of the biggest things that I strive to do with my business is to be a company that values their customers, and to be easy to work with. We work very hard at customer service. And to make sure that our customers feel heard and seen by us, and that we treat them with the utmost respect. Because when I go and shop at a company or business, I always want to feel like they care about me. And that's what we really try to do—care for our customers, and hear what they have to say, and make sure that our brand exceeds their expectations. That's one of the most important things for our values as a company. Yeah, that makes sense! Can you talk about the trade show you went to recently? Yeah, I went to a trade show in New York, and that was super fun! I had been doing wholesale about four or five years ago, and then just took a break from it. And I decided to re-look at this, and try it again. The energy was so great—I had such a good time going there. I think now that it's… Sort of post-pandemic? I don't know if you can say it's post-pandemic. But now that the world is opening up again, it was really fun to see old wholesale customers who I hadn't seen in four years. And also meet a whole bunch of new people. And the energy of the show was so fabulous. People were excited, they were interested. Lots of really good questions. And just being in a collective energy was really wonderful. And this was a gift show, so there were people with all different kinds of products, it wasn't just jewelry. It was a lot of home goods, personal care—makeup, skin care—and then there was also clothing there. It was really fun to be around so many creative energies, as well as buyers from all different kinds of stores. So I had a great time! All right, we're wrapping it up. Do you have any plans for the future? Anything exciting in store? Yeah! I am working on some new things and I can't wait to reveal. And so we're gonna be launching some stuff in… Summer. So we're not gonna spill the beans yet, so you'll have to follow me on social media or check me out on the website. We're also doing a little… We've already created some lifestyle products—bowls and trays, for the home. We're gonna be expanding that portion of the collection as well. That's been really fun, and we've gotten a lot of good feedback from our customers. Nice! Sounds pretty exciting! Yeah! Thank you. Yeah, is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up? I am just so thankful that you reached out. It's been great to come and chat with you and share my story, so I really appreciate it. And yeah, thank you for your time! Yeah, this has been really great. Thank you so much!

WDAV and the Fair Play Music Equity Initiative continue the second season of NoteWorthy virtual concerts with R&B artist Nia J joined by flutist Jill O’Neill and violist Ben Geller. We speak to the trio about how well they bonded as a group, and how the addition of the classical instruments helped “breathe some life back” into the singer-songwriter’s music. Nia J Ben Geller Jill O'Neill Transcript Frank Dominguez : This is Frank Dominguez for WDAV’s Piedmont Arts. On Wednesday, August 24 at 7:30 PM, WDAV continues its second season of NoteWorthy virtual concerts presented in partnership with the FAIR PLAY Music Equity Initiative. The series brings together gifted Black and brown artists from the Charlotte music scene with classical musicians for some genre blending and community building. This time, we’re teaming R&B singer-songwriter Nia J with flutist Jill O’Neill and violist Ben Geller. The trio joins me now via Zoom. Thanks, everyone! Jill O’Neill : Thanks for having us. Nia J : Yeah, excited to be here. Frank : Nia, R&B is a category of music that's really as broad and varied as classical music in terms of its range of sounds and artists. So who are some of the musicians, from R&B or otherwise, who have had an influence on your music? Nia : I would say Jhené Aiko comes to mind. I really like her harmonies and the really melodic tunes that she is able to achieve. And just that it’s really peaceful. I like for my music to be tranquil and have that really peaceful state. I really like Daniel Caesar as well. Same thing as far as harmonies - I really like the way that he writes. Both completely different artists, but those are two that come to mind when I think of R&B artists that inspire me. Frank : And if I were asking you to describe what R&B means to you, how would you talk about that? Nia : I don’t know, it's kind of limitless right now! There's no sound that is unique to it at the moment, everyone's taking their own direction with it. I think it gets back to the lyrics. The lyrics are really soulful, I think the message is usually pretty powerful. And I like the contemporary stance that a lot of artists are taking, where we're fusing different genres into it. Frank : Jill, you are a flute professor at Winthrop University and you teach Music Appreciation, but in addition, your resume also includes the Charlotte School of Rock and courses in the History of Rock and Roll. How did you come by this eclectic streak? Jill : It actually doesn't seem eclectic to me, I don't know why it does to everybody else. (Laughs) You know, I grew up listening to heavy metal and punk and being a kid in the 80’s. Yes, I play a very… solit(ary), shall I say, girly instrument. Most of my teachers were men when I was a kid. (The flute) is seen as that frilly, fluffy, pretty, very vocal instrument, but that actually is very unlike me as a human and as a musician. When I have to play flute, I really have to bring myself into Nia’s way of thinking. I really have to calm myself down and try to contain it. Because that’s not the kind of music I really listen to and the two bands that I played with, it’s not pretty flute music. It’s kind of heavy, loud, grinding… and that’s just the kind of person I am. So, when I’m playing drums, I actually sometimes feel more like myself. But the flute is my life. I started playing piccolo when I was six, so of course, everybody insisted that I gravitate towards the flute as well, so I played both. And alto flute and bass flute. But that’s just one very small part of me. I think as a teacher, that’s what I bring to the table, because I make sure that all my students can do everything. I always say, “the more you do, the more marketable you are, so don’t pigeonhole yourself!” Frank : Great point. Ben, most of WDAV’s listeners are used to seeing you in evening wear at concerts by the Charlotte Symphony Orchestra. What is the appeal for you personally about stepping outside your usual circle and collaborating with Nia J on this project? Ben Geller : Well, it's… that pigeonholing that Jill was talking about, that’s more of my life. I think when I was younger, I had broader interests, and as I got older, I wanted to focus more and more, and eventually orchestral viola kind of took over my life. Not to say I don't love it, but I miss doing more out of the box stuff. And playing in the orchestra does get you a decent amount of variety. We play all kinds of classical music and modern stuff. But being a directly contributing partner to a project like this was… I mean, I love that. Nia’s got such a unique voice, a beautiful voice, and great songwriting. And working with another colleague in Jill, who brings this whole varied background… this was so much fun. I wish we could do this all of the time, always. Jill : Hear that, Nia? (Laughs) Hint! Ben : Stand by. Nia : Taking the hint. Frank : That's really great to see the obvious bond that has formed between the three of you. Nia, I'm interested in your creative process for writing songs. Are you thinking about the audience and their expectations of you, or are you perhaps more driven by your own experiences and emotions? How does it work for you? Nia : I think anytime I try to start with the audience, it just doesn't work. So usually, it's best if I think about how I'm feeling and experiences that I'd like to share, and usually I get lucky and those experiences can be related to by others and people who are listening. So I just try to be authentic in why I'm writing and taking from my experiences and then just hoping that people will connect. Frank : Jill, I have another question for you. And given that you demonstrated you're not the stereotypical flutist that some people might have in mind, how did you go about working with Nia? What form did the collaboration take? Jill : You know what, it was really easy. She had sent Ben and I her music quite some time before we got together, and Ben and I just kind of had - immediately, I mean, we’ve known each other and played with each other for a long time - we just had a sense of what each song needed from us. So that's why I ended up just grabbing a whole bunch of different instruments before I left because we had no idea what was going to come of rehearsals. It was a neat kind of hodgepodge of listen to a tune, grab a different instrument, try something… substitute one instrument for another, until we just found it. I don't think that's a secret. I think that's the way most people write music. So it was fun for us to have that beautiful base of stuff that she had already written. It made our jobs really easy, don’t you think, Ben? (Laughs) It really wasn’t taxing for us. We did have to decide a few times, and Nia was really prominent in the conversations, about how much of the music do we keep and add us on to, versus trying to have us recreate that. It wasn’t an easy task when Ben and I felt like, “Oh my God, we have to play flute and viola. How are we going to make her music sound (right)?” That was really scary. Until she had this look on her face, like “No, you don’t have to do that. You can do anything you want.” And as soon as we realized that, it was on. I mean, we just kind of went crazy. And when Ben got out his mandolin, Nia just looked at me like, “Yeah. This is going. This is what we want.” Frank : Ben, how about you? What was the transition to playing music in this sort of milieu? Easy, or difficult, or how did you manage it? Ben : You know, viola is a backup instrument. We don’t… it's not always “spotlight” for us, for sure. So thinking about it in this vein was a little bit (of) where I live, in how to best support a good clear melody. And viola didn’t always make sense, so I happen to have this wonderful mandolin that I love and don't play enough of, and it seemed to fit on a few of Nia’s songs, so we kept using it. Frank : One definite message I'm getting from this is that there's a lot more to the contemporary classical musician than first meets the eye and than I think the average audience member might realize, not only in terms of your training and background but your interests and the ways you express yourself. Nia, when you were getting ready for this NoteWorthy concert, did you have any role in playing… in terms of choosing the instruments or the musicians who would be performing with you? Nia : I wasn't really picky. They asked what types of instruments (I’d like), and I’m like, “I don’t know!” It’s been a while since I’ve worked with classical musicians. I did choir, and we always performed alongside classical musicians, but that was in high school, so I’m like, “Whatever you think sounds like it will fit with my music.” I was randomly paired with Jill and Ben, and it was great because Jill… the first day that we rehearsed, she brought like fifty different instruments. So it was nice that we could experiment, as they were saying, and just play around to see what worked and what didn’t. I had no idea what route I would take with it. Frank : I’m going to give you the last word, Nia, and ask you what stands out for you as the most memorable part of working with Jill and Ben specifically as classically trained musicians? What did that combination bring to the songs you had written and have been performing? Nia : I think they definitely helped breathe some life back into the music. After performing the same songs over and over again, sometimes you lose touch with them. So working with Jill and Ben helped me reconnect with them in a way that I hope the audience will see when they watch the performance. And just who they are as people, too. I’ve grown really fond of you guys, and getting to work together was awesome. I’m just really grateful to have gotten to meet both of them. Frank : My guests have been R&B singer-songwriter Nia J and flutist Jill O’Neill, as well as violist Ben Geller. On Wednesday, August 24th at 7:30 PM, you can hear them perform when WDAV continues the second season of NoteWorthy virtual concerts, presented in partnership with the FAIR PLAY Music Equity Initiative. The series brings together gifted Black and brown artists from the Charlotte music scene with classical musicians for some genre blending and community building music. And you can watch WDAV’s YouTube channel to catch the video or WDAV’s Facebook page. You can also get more information about the artists and the series from noteworthyclassical.org. Thank you, everyone, for speaking with me. Jill : Thanks, Frank. Ben : Thanks for having us, Frank. Nia : Thanks! Frank : For WDAV’s Piedmont Arts, I’m Frank Dominguez.

Dr. Hayes interviews Dr. Sarah Donaldson and her pioneering work in pediatric radiation oncology.   TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. [MUSIC PLAYING] DANIEL HAYES: Welcome to JCO'S Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content and offering enriching insights into the world of cancer care. You can find all of these shows, including this one, at podcast.asco.org. Today my guest on this podcast is Dr. Sarah Donaldson. Dr. Donaldson has really been instrumental in much of the development of both, in my opinion, modern radiation oncology and especially related to pediatric radiation oncology. Dr. Donaldson was raised in Portland, Oregon. She received an initial undergraduate and nursing degree at the University of Oregon in Eugene and ultimately in Portland. After a few years working as a nurse with Dr. William Fletcher, who I hope we'll get a chance to talk about later, she elected to go to medical school and spend her first two years at Dartmouth and then finished with an MD from Harvard. She was planning to do a surgery residency at the Brigham Women's in Boston but then elected to do an internal medicine internship at the University of Washington and ultimately then a residency in radiation oncology at Stanford. After a residency and a few side trips along the way, she joined the faculty at Stanford and has remained there since. Dr. Donaldson has authored nearly 300 peer-reviewed papers, probably more than that by now. That was when I last looked at her CV a couple of weeks ago, and it seems like she brings them out every week. She has served as president of the American Board of Radiology, the Radiology Society of North America, and the American Society of Therapeutic Radiation Oncology, ASCO's sister organization, of course-- ASTRO. And she also served on the board of ASCO, the board of directors, from 1994 to 1997 and, in my opinion, perhaps as importantly, on the board of directors of the ASCO Foundation for over a decade. She has way too many honors for me to lay out here, but a few that caught my eye. Named after a distinguished scientist in the past, the Marie Curie award for the American Association of Women Radiologists, the Janeway Award from the American Radiation Society, and the Henry Kaplan Award for Teaching from Stanford. And she was the inaugural recipient of the Women Who Conquer Cancer Award from our own Foundation, the Conquer Cancer Foundation. Dr. Donaldson, welcome to our program. SARAH DONALDSON: Thanks so much, Dan. It's a privilege to be talking with you today. DANIEL HAYES: I hope I got all that right. It's pretty tough to cram the distinguished career you've had into about a minute. [LAUGHS] Anyway, I'm going to start out. So I've interviewed a lot of the luminaries and the people who really started our fields or even the subfield within our field, and you yourself had quite a journey. I know you started out as a nurse. Can you just give us some background about going to nursing school and then who and what influenced your decision to become a physician? SARAH DONALDSON: Yes, I did. I can, Dan, and it's an interesting story. Because when I grew up, girls that wanted to go on to college-- and it wasn't all girls didn't go to college, but I did. The three areas that one could do in that era were become a teacher or maybe a librarian or a nurse. And so I elected to become a nurse, and I went to nursing school. And I loved nursing school. I had a terrific time in nursing school, and along the line, I met the house officers and such and ultimately got to know a surgical oncologist. That was before surgical oncology was a field, but a young man from the Boston City Hospital training program, which was a very good surgical training program at the time, who was recruited to the University of Oregon to start a cancer program. His name was Bill Fletcher-- William S. Fletcher. And when I graduated from nursing school, Bill Fletcher was looking for a right arm assistant. He was looking for somebody to help him develop a cancer program. And he offered me a job, and the job was to work with him in the operating room, either scrubbing or circulating, to run his tumor board-- and that meant just scheduling it and taking notes and such-- and working with him in his tumor clinic. And in the tumor clinic, he was at that time beginning clinical trials, and Oregon was part of something that was called the Western Cancer Chemotherapy Group, which ultimately merged with SWOG. But at that time, his helper-- me-- filled out the forms, and we sent them to patients that were entered onto the study and got consents and measured lesions and that sort of thing. And I worked hand in hand with him. In addition to working with him in those clinical parameters, he gave me a little laboratory project, and so I worked with him in the lab and learned a little bit about small animal oncologic research, et cetera. And after a couple of years working with him, he suggested that I would be a better employee if I took some additional courses, and he suggested that maybe I should take physics because at that time he was doing isolation perfusion. I was running his pump oxygenator. He asked me what I would do if there was a pump failure. I didn't know. And he said, well, I think it would be good if you took physics. Well, the prerequisite to physics was organic. I hadn't had organic, and he was also working with radioisotopes in the lab. And he said, you could really be more helpful to me if you could work in the lab. That meant I had to take organic, and the prerequisite to organic was inorganic. To make a long story short, I took these series of classes in night school while I was working for Dr. Fletcher in the daytime. And then one night, I was working on my hamster project, and he said, I think you should go to medical school. I said, I can't go to medical school. And the long and the short of it was Dr. Fletcher thought I should go to medical school, and he made that possible for me. It's a very, very interesting story, but what it means is that I was mentored by somebody who was a visionary, and he could see a lot more than I could see. And he got me excited about medical school and everything that I knew about medical school is what he had taught me, so I of course wanted to be a cancer surgeon. And then after I went to medical school and I went to the same medical school he did, I just followed his advice. Every time I needed some guidance along the way, I asked Dr. Fletcher what I should do, and he told me what I should do, and I applied. And that's what I did. And so when I came time to choosing a specialty, I decided I would train in surgery, and I applied at the Brigham and was accepted into their surgical program. It was run by Francis Moore at the time. And that was a big deal because they hadn't had women in their surgical field, and I was very excited about all of that but feeling totally inadequate because I didn't think I knew enough medicine. And so I went to Dr. Moore and said, I think I'd be a better house officer if I knew some medicine. He says, OK, well, go take a medical internship, and we'll hold you a spot. So I went to the University of Washington and took general medicine, which was a very vibrant program, a really exciting program, and I just came alive in my internship. I loved everything about it. And then I decided I wanted to be an internist. So at this point, I was offered a position in Washington, and I had already accepted Dr. Moore in Boston. And I didn't know what to do, and I asked Dr. Fletcher what I should do. And he said, Sarah, the world of-- he called it radiotherapy at the time, but what we would call radiation oncology-- needs more surgically oriented physicians. I think you should go down and talk to my friends at Stanford. So I came down to Stanford. I met Henry Kaplan and Malcolm Bagshaw and the leaderships in the department, and including Saul Rosenberg, who was one of the people who interviewed me, and I left that day visiting at Stanford making a commitment that I would come to Stanford as a radiation oncologist. So I wanted to do everything, and I met some very inspiring people along the way, perhaps like you have in your own career. And it's for that reason that I am now excited about mentoring because it's a little bit of payback because somebody opened the door for me and made it possible for me to have a most gratifying professional career, and I would like to do that for as many people as I could. DANIEL HAYES: I love that story. And there were two things about it that came out. One is I normally don't like people who namedrop, but when you can namedrop the names you just dropped-- Bill Fletcher, who I consider really one of the early surgical oncologists, Henry Kaplan, Saul Rosenberg, Franny Moore. I was in Boston of 15 years, and he was a legend. He was not the chair anymore by any means. In fact, he passed away. But it was legendary. You should be doing these interviews instead of me. [LAUGHS] You've been there. SARAH DONALDSON: Well, it's all about where you are at the time you are and meeting the right people. I think so much of my gratifying career is just because I happened to be at the right place at the right time and met the right people. DANIEL HAYES: Well, the other thing I want to say is I always believed I don't trust people I interview who say they know exactly what they want to do. And the reason I say it that way is I have a young woman who's been a technician in my lab that just got into med school, and she sat with me and said, now, when I go there, should I tell them I know exactly what I want to do? Because she's interested in the oncology. Or should I go through my rotations and see what I like? And I said, I forbid you from going there knowing what you want to do. Go to your rotation. See what you like. You're going to run into somebody who just inspires you beyond words who-- I don't know-- maybe selling shoes. But whatever it is, become like her, and you'll be extraordinarily successful. So if there are young people listening to this, I think that your story, Dr. Donaldson, is a classic for that, the way you kicked around. And actually, you didn't tell us, but I'm going to have you tell us about your trip to Paris and that experience too and how that influenced you. SARAH DONALDSON: Oh, that was another wonderful opportunity. When I finished my training, it was 1972, and that's when America was in the Vietnam War. All of my classmates were being recruited to a mandatory draft and were having to go to Vietnam, and I felt like I too should be just like all of my best friends and I too should join the military and go to Vietnam. But that wasn't possible. Women couldn't do that. So I looked for things that I could do where I could do something useful, and I thought about joining the ship Hope and all sorts of fanciful things, but basically I was lost, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And at that time, there wasn't a carve-out of pediatric oncology as a specialty. It hadn't been defined, but there were people that were doing pediatrics. And as a resident, I had had a little rotation at the M.D. Anderson, and when I was in medical school, I had spent a fair amount of time at the Boston Children's, so I kind of knew a little bit about those institutions. But the thing was at Stanford, I knew that I wanted to be at Stanford. But Stanford didn't have a cancer program either. And so again, I went to Henry Kaplan and Malcolm Bagshaw-- at that point, Kaplan was head of the department, and Malcolm was his associate director. But they changed positions about a year after that. So I trained under both of them, really, but I went to Dr. Kaplan and said, I'm interested in pediatrics. And I said that because we didn't have a program at Stanford and that was like a carve out that nobody had addressed yet. And he said, oh, well, if you want to study pediatric cancer, you have to go to the Institute Gustavo Roussy and train under Odile Schweisguth. And I said, no, I don't speak French. I can't do that. I'd like to go to London because I like the theater. And he said, no, no, no, no, no, that's not the way it is. If you want to be a pediatric doctor, you have to go learn pediatrics and learn to think like a pediatrician, and that means you have to go and train under Odile Schweisguth. She was at the Grand Dame of pediatric oncology. She took care of all the children in Western Europe. And so I went to Institute Gustavo Roussy to be a fellow in pediatric oncology, although I did spend some time on the radiotherapy unit as well. But that's where I learned pediatric cancer because I learned from Odile. And in French, there's a formal and an informal, and I never understood the formal because when you talk to kids, you talk in the familiar form. So I was just talking to and not [SPEAKING FRENCH]. I would just say, [SPEAKING FRENCH] and such. [INAUDIBLE] French. And that's how I learned French. More importantly, I learned the biology of cancer from Odile. It was largely observational. And I learned a lot of late effects of children who were cancer survivors. So when I came back to Stanford, at that time Mal Bagshaw was chair, and he said, well, why don't you work on starting a cancer program? We'd like to have a cancer program. So I worked with the pediatric cancer doctor at Stanford. His name was Dan Wilber, and he had just come from the M.D. Anderson. And the two of us started a cancer program at Stanford. And so I've been kind of doing that ever since, of doing pediatric cancer. So I would say my skill set came along just because the right people told me where to go at the right time. DANIEL HAYES: Were the pediatricians welcoming, or did they resent the fact that you'd never been a pediatrician? SARAH DONALDSON: Malcolm Bagshaw gave me the clue to that by saying the only way the pediatricians will accept you is by having them accept you is one of their own. So you have to learn to think like a pediatrician, and then they will accept you onto their team as one of theirs because pediatric doctors are very possessive about their patients, and pediatric cancer doctors are possessive about their patients. So it worked for me. But it worked because I had had this special training under Odile Schweisguth, who was a general pediatrician, and so I was accepted because I was at that point thinking like Odile thought because that's what she taught me how to do. So I always felt like I was accepted by the pediatric cancer doctors who then became the pediatric oncologists because that field didn't really open up for a couple of years later. DANIEL HAYES: For our listeners, Dr. Donaldson and I have not met before, and I certainly have never worked with her. But she's talking, she's glossed over that when you work with the French, you really have to speak French. When you work with the pediatricians, you really have to speak pediatrician. And you've managed to do both of those. I don't know anybody who's been that successful. I should take a sabbatical and come work with you. [LAUGHS] SARAH DONALDSON: Well, I'll tell you, Dan, there was one wonderful thing that happened because shortly after I was working at Stanford doing pediatrics, our dean wanted to recruit some more people and buff up our pediatric cancer unit. And he recruited Michael Link, who had just come out of his training at the Dana Farber. And so Michael and I started working together his first day as an assistant professor at Stanford, and pediatric oncology is a team sport. Pediatric radiation oncology is a team sport. And I had a wonderful teammate, Michael Link, with whom I worked very well, and we became very fast friends. And we did pediatric lymphoma and sarcoma, bone sarcoma, and soft tissue sarcoma, and all sorts of stuff. And I had a wonderful, wonderful colleague working with Michael Link. So one of the keys to my most gratifying part of my career at Stanford has been working with Michael Link and his associates. DANIEL HAYES: As an aside, by the way, Michael and I overlapped just a little bit at Harvard, but then he proceeded me as president of ASCO by two years, and we got to be pretty close friends during that period of time. And I echo your fondness for him. He's just an amazing human being, as far as I was concerned. And he's one of the-- he may be-- I'm trying to think, has there other pediatricians that have been president of ASCO? I'm not-- SARAH DONALDSON: No, he was the first. Yeah, he's the only one to date. DANIEL HAYES: Yeah. And he left a big stamp on the society in terms of-- we always had some pediatrics involved-- you, especially-- during the years, but as president, he was able to leave a big footprint of what we do. So he was terrific. I'd also like you to talk a little bit about the early days of the co-operative groups. You threw out that you were in the Western Group that became part of SWOG, and what were the hurdles and obstacles to getting all these folks to work together? And what do you see the pros and cons of the cooperative groups in the country? SARAH DONALDSON: I know the cooperative groups mainly through the lens of the pediatric cooperative groups. I mean, I can tell you about the adult ones, but I really know the pediatric ones. And at the beginning, there was one, and then there were two. And we worked competitively, and then ultimately the pediatric doctors learned early on that the children they took care of had rare tumors, and no one physician had a whole lot of experience with any cancer. For example, this tells the story well. When Hal Maurer was chairman of Pediatrics at Virginia, he had a child with rhabdomyosarcoma. And he called his friend Ruth Hein, who was at Michigan, and said, Ruth, I've got this child with rhabdomyosarcoma. Have you ever treated a child like this? And Ruth said, oh, I had one patient, but I think you should call Teresa because Teresa, I think, had a patient. And so Teresa Vietti was at Washington University, and so Hal Maurer and Teresa Vietti and Ruth Hein and a few other really, really pioneers started to throw their lot together and decided that the way they could answer a question about these rare tumors is by deciding what was the question of the day and working collaboratively. And then Hal Maurer became the first chair of what was then called the Innergroup Rhabdomyosarcoma Study, which has now been merged into the other pediatric groups. But that same process that worked for rhabdomyosarcoma was then employed for Wilms tumor, and then subsequently down the line, brain tumors and all the other solid tumors. And of course, St. Jude was doing this with their leukemia studies and Dan Finkel, and then Joe Simone did it with leukemia. They got everybody to join in on their team, decide together around the table by consensus what is the question that we want to have an answer for, and then just treat all the patients in a consecutive fashion, analyze those, and then take that step and go on and build to the next step. That's how the pediatricians have done it because their cancers are so rare that one person doesn't have very much experience. They have to throw their lot together and work collaboratively. So they don't work competitively. They work collaboratively. DANIEL HAYES: This is very similar to the stories I of course heard from Drs. Frei and Holland that they came ultimately to CALGB to be after a couple of mis-starts. But it's one of the things I worry about COVID. It's not the same Zooming with somebody or talking on the phone as it is sitting around dinner and just saying, maybe we could do this and make it work. So I'm hoping young people are listening to this and saying, OK, maybe we can start something new that a bunch of us work together and get things done. That's a really great story. You were early on and ended up taking both diagnostic and therapeutic radiology boards, correct? When they were combined? SARAH DONALDSON: No, no I didn't. Radiology was combined at that time, but Stanford was one of the few institutions that had a carve-out for radiation oncology without diagnostic training, and I wasn't in the first class. I was in the fourth or fifth class, so my formal training was only in what was called radiation therapy, now called radiation oncology. So it was one department, and I worked collaboratively with a diagnostic radiologist because I knew nothing about image interpretation-- nothing at all. So I'd see an X-ray. I didn't know how to interpret it, and I'd have to go and ask for some help. But they were like our best friends. But the diagnostic people could take the picture, but the therapists had access to the patients. So that made all the difference in the world because we really had access to the material, the clinical material or the blood or the bone marrow or the biopsy specimens or whatever it was, and allowed us to do studies. But to clarify, no, I was not. I do not have formal training in diagnostic radiology, although I have worked with them so closely now that I feel like they're all my brothers because you cannot do radiation oncology without collaborating closely with the imagers. DANIEL HAYES: And my first interview was with Sam Helman. This has been three or four years ago. And he was still lamenting the split because he thought it was to learn both-- and for the reasons you just said. If you don't know where it is to shoot your bean, you can't shoot your bean. That's not exactly what he said but something like that. On our side, they team hematology and oncology. Like you, I never got trained in hematology. I only trained in solid tumor oncology, which has not hurt me in any way. In fact, in many respects, I focus my efforts on things I seem to know about and let somebody else worry about blood clotting. Of all the things you're well known for-- and again, it was hard for me to get it all into a minute or two, but probably teaching and mentoring. And in this conversation, I see why. Tell me how you think that's evolved in your field, especially in radiation oncology, teaching and mentoring, and the importance of the things you've done-- and perhaps some of the people you have trained yourself and you're proud of. SARAH DONALDSON: Well, when I think of all the things that I love about my professional career, I love taking care of patients. And I've had very joyous experiences of watching pediatric cancer patients grow up and watching them in their process and treating them when they're toddlers and then getting invitations to graduations and wedding invitations and baby announcements and following through that. That's very, very gratifying. But the single most important and most gratifying part of what I do is the volumetric feedback and gratification from training residents because one patient is one patient, but one trainee then goes into academic medicine and that person has 30 or 300 or 3,000 trainees. And you see your impact is just explosive. And Stanford has had a training program in radiation oncology from the very, very beginning. It was one of the first programs that did train in radiation oncology, so a lot of talented people have come through Stanford. They need to have what Bill Fletcher did for me, which was open doors and help them with networking and giving them an opportunity and giving them some guidance and being their new best friend. When your trainees trust you like that, then you can really, really have a relationship, and you can really help them. And so I am very, very, very proud of our trainees that are now all over the place as cancer center directors or directors of departments or divisions that are doing what they're doing. You just meet the best of the best. That is the most gratifying part of-- maybe it's because that's what I'm doing now, but it's the most gratifying part of medicine that I've experienced. DANIEL HAYES: This is the third time I've said this on this call-- I hope there are young people listening, and I hope they're looking for a mentor and they can find someone as generous and trusting and helpful as you have been. SARAH DONALDSON: Dan, let me just say one little thing. DANIEL HAYES: Yeah. SARAH DONALDSON: It was extremely helpful to me-- and wonderful recognition for ASCO-- to provide the opportunity that I received the Women Who Conquer Cancer Mentoring Award. Because when I won that award, I was the inaugural-- but when I won that, all of a sudden people thought that I knew something about mentoring. I'm not certain I did know anything about mentoring, but I was asked to talk about it and asked to give advice, et cetera. And it gave me a carve out that was quite novel at the time, and now, of course, it's a mandated requirement in every training program, et cetera, but it wasn't then. And for me, it was just to return what Bill Fletcher did for me. The only way I can say is that it's a pay out, and it's so gratifying. It just makes you happy to get out of bed every morning and interact with the people you do interact with. DANIEL HAYES: He was pretty young when he began to mentor you. And I think having seen and been mentored and mentored other people, I always worry about a young person trying to mentor because you've got your own career to worry about, and it's hard not to be selfish when you're building a career in academics. He must have been a remarkable-- is he still active? Is he still around? He must have been a remarkable guy. SARAH DONALDSON: He was a remarkable guy, and no, he passed away. But that was true. And that is true because junior faculty are busy making their own professional career, and they don't have time. They're busy on their own path, and it's a hard path to go on. So most junior faculty don't really have very much time to do formal mentoring. But in Bill Fletcher's case, we worked hand in hand as sort of partners. And so I think, in some ways, I was helpful to him because I could do literature searches for him. I could write the first draft of his paper. I could write the first draft of his grant. I filled out the forms. I did a lot of things that were labor saving for him, but for me, what was he doing for me? He was teaching me to suture. He was teaching me how to resect normal [INAUDIBLE]. He was teaching me lymph node drainage from cancers. He was teaching me about drug metabolism, methotrexate, and phenylalanine mustard. And 5-FU was an experimental agent. So was vincristine-- those kinds of things. So I learned a lot from him just in the ordinary practice of taking care of the patients. DANIEL HAYES: By the way, two stories I read about you-- one is how you met Henry Kaplan, and the second is the first paper you wrote with him. Can you give us those two? And then I think we've got to sign off. SARAH DONALDSON: Well, let me tell you about the first paper I wrote with him because the other one is too funny. Everybody will laugh at me. The first paper I wrote with Henry Kaplan, I worked really, really hard on it. It had to do with bacterial infections in patients with Hodgkin's disease because we were doing splenectomies on everybody, and they were getting pneumococcal bacteremias and meningitis. And I was running the ward at that time. I was taking care of a lot of patients that were sick. So I was writing up this experience. And I wrote what I thought was the perfect paper because, see, Kaplan had a high bar, and you didn't want to disappoint him. So I wrote the paper that I thought was perfection. I had gone through a lot of drafts. And I gave it to him, and he returned it to me the next day. He read it that night. But I only looked at the first page because the first page looked like a blood bath. Everything he wrote, he wrote with a red pen. And there was red writing all over the first page. I couldn't see any white paper. It was all red comments. DANIEL HAYES: [LAUGHS] SARAH DONALDSON: And I went through-- I don't know-- 24 different drafts of that paper finally being published. And so one of the things I try to do with residents now is to teach them, you have to have a hypothesis. You have to make certain you have a database. You have to have a long term follow up. You have to understand statistics, and you have to write a paper knowing what you're doing. You don't just start writing. You do a section and a section and you build it with evidence. So I enjoy doing editing, and I think I can help some trainees focus their thinking in terms of writing a grant proposal or a manuscript that's worthwhile publishing. My introduction to Henry Kaplan-- there are many, many funny stories about them, but to end them all, I will have to say that he was very, very, very good to me. He provided a lot of opportunities and was a huge role model. He taught by scarification. We were all scared to death of him, but he was absolutely a wonderful, wonderful huggable person, if you felt like you could hug him. We didn't do that very often. We might have hugged Saul Rosenberg, but we didn't hug Henry Kaplan. But they were both helpful to me, especially in understanding lymphomas. DANIEL HAYES: For those of you listening who don't know who Henry Kaplan was, I think it's fair to say he was one of the first people to prove you could cure Hodgkin's disease with radiation. Do you agree? Is that a fair statement? SARAH DONALDSON: Yes, that's where his name came. But of course, what Kaplan did was he recruited Saul Rosenberg, and the two of those worked hand in hand, and they brought to Stanford what we call the Lymphoma Staging Conference, which was a combined modality conference where we talked together over each patient. And together, they wrote clinical trials that were institution-based clinical trials. So what Kaplan did was he did a lot of technical work with the linear accelerator, but that was just a tool. My way of thinking is his most important contribution was the importance of combined modality therapy and understanding what your colleagues can contribute and what you can contribute in doing it as a team. DANIEL HAYES: And I will encourage anyone who's listening to this to go back to the website and listen to my interview with Dr. Rosenberg who laid that out in spades. And the first few patients he treated, he had a chair outside his exam room. He would examine the patient, take them out, put them in the chair, start the IV himself, go mix the chemotherapy, hang it up, and then see the next patient in the room while the first patient was getting chemotherapy. It's a little different now. [LAUGHS] Anyway, thank you so much. By the way, I have a copy of Dr. Kaplan's book on Hodgkin's disease, which was the Bible when we were training. You can't see it because it's on my bookshelf behind my camera, but I still open it up quite a while, even for a breast cancer guy. It was a classic. I also want to say, it's very clear to me you're a nurse at heart. You've been a fabulous physician and researcher and mentor, but your love for people shines through, so congratulations. I think that's terrific. SARAH DONALDSON: Thank you so much. DANIEL HAYES: Thanks for taking your time to speak with me today. I'm sure people are going to be thrilled to listen to this, and thanks for all you've done to feel. It's just really remarkable-- and what you've done for ASCO and the Foundation, which is a big, big, payback. Thanks for everything. SARAH DONALDSON: Thank you. DANIEL HAYES: Until next time, thank you for listening to this JCO's Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology Podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. While you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. JCO's Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology Podcast is just one of ASCO's many podcasts. You can find all the shows at podcast.asco.org. [MUSIC PLAYING]

A note to our listeners,  Covid-19 has created an unprecedented time for leaders. There is no playbook or easy way for leaders to navigate the tremendous economic, social and emotional toll.   With this in mind, we decided that it was important now more than ever for leaders to help each other by sharing their stories and practical experiences. So, we’ve decided to focus our upcoming episodes on how Leaders  are navigating this crisis: how they’ve shifted direction, what they are doing to keep their teams safe and motivated, and how they personally managing through this tremendous uncertainty. We are grateful to the number of leaders who have offered up their experiences. Their creativity, resiliency, humility and positivity has been inspiring. Our hope is that by sharing their ideas and stories we can help each other find a way forward. Jacqui McGillivray, executive vice president and chief people officer at Element Fleet Management, talks about what she’s learned about keeping employees motivated and connected as they work remotely and grapple with COVID-19 through openness, focus and understanding. In this episode, Jacqui discusses:  The impact of COVID on her organization (03:18) How a culture of agility and accountability is helping her team be practical and deal with change (04:01) The importance of communication and trust in a crisis (06:12) The importance of considering people’s individual situations and being empathic to their needs (07:18) What her company is doing to help employees be productive while working form home (08:21) Creating connection points and collaboration when you aren’t face-to-face (13:19) Why you should be open to all ideas in this unprecedented time (18:01) Her self-care routine – and why these matter for leaders (19:33) Positive lessons from COVID-induced changes (22:12) Her hope for other leaders during this time (23:11) The importance of leaders being human in a crisis and showing vulnerability (24:44) Her favourite work-from-home attire (27:30) Jacqui’s advice for leaders: Take care of your employees as people (08:31) Foster connections and collaboration (10:18) Build in space to be present (16:43) Slow down and listen effectively (17:16) Leverage the different generations in your workforce and the perspective they have to offer in challenging times (17:59) Be practical, not perfect (22:19) Be honest about how hard this time is for everyone, including yourself (25:00) Be flexible (25:27) More about Jacqui McGillivray:  Jacqui McGillivray is executive vice president and chief people officer at Element Fleet Management, where she’s worked to create a culture of collaboration to drive productivity. At Element, McGillivray handles talent management and development, global compensation and benefits, real estate and workplace and communications. She’s also responsible for the company’s global balanced scorecard, people and organizational performance. Before joining Element, McGillivray was executive vice president of safety and organization effectiveness at Cenovus Energy. She has held senior HR leadership roles at Talisman Energy, Royal Bank of Canada and Nortel. She holds a bachelor’s degree from the University of Western Ontario and an international MBA from Manchester Business School and McGill University. Links to additional resources:   https://www.elementfleet.com/news/industry-news/coronavirus-covid-19-preparedness   https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2018/10/01/1588124/0/en/Element-Fleet-Announces-Plan-to-Enhance-its-Customers-Experience-Strengthen-the-Balance-Sheet-With-a-300-Million-Equity-Issuance-and-Achieve-150-Million-of-Run-Rate-Profitability-I.html   Transcript:  TINEKE KEESMAAT: Hi, it's Tineke here. Welcome to today's LeaderLab. As you know, LeaderLab is focused on having inspiring leaders share their stories and practical leadership tips in order to help others be more effective. Today is March 26, 2020, and we are facing an unprecedented time for leaders as they navigate the uncharted world in dealing with the global health pandemic of coronavirus. We debated internally whether to stop or postpone these podcasts when a leader we deeply respect suggested that we continue but refocus on helping leaders share their personal insights and tips on how they are responding to the crisis. Clearly, there's no playbook on how to tackle the economic, social, and emotional challenges that leaders are having to navigate through. But our hope is that by, perhaps, making lessons from others available, we might be able to help share some ideas and let leaders know that they are not alone. Our next few episodes will be focused on how leaders are managing through these times and we hope you find them helpful. [MUSIC PLAYING] NARRATOR: Welcome to LeaderLab, where we talk to experts about how leaders can excel in a modern world. Helping leaders for over 20 years, your host, Tineke Keesmaat. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Today, I'm joined by Jacqui McGillivray. Jacqui is the leader in the field of people and is passionate about helping individuals and their teams achieve their fullest potential. She's currently the executive vice president and chief people officer at Element Fleet Management. She has had senior leadership positions in a range of industries including financial services, oil and gas, and telecommunications. Jacqui and I were planning on doing a podcast today on engagement when these COVID-19 crises broke. She has generously suggested that we continue with the podcast but focus specifically on practical leadership tips, on how she and her leadership team are responding to the crisis, knowing that there's no perfect answer and that every leader is trying to figure it out. Jacqui, thank you so much for joining me today on LeaderLab. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Thanks, I'm thrilled to be here. TINEKE KEESMAAT: So Jacqui, just help me help our listeners understand a bit more of who you are. First, can you tell me what Element Fleet is? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Element Fleet is a leading global fleet management company. So what that means is we provide both financing for commercial vehicles as well as services to manage those vehicles. So it's all about making the fleet safer, smarter, more productive for our clients. TINEKE KEESMAAT: What is your specific role at Element Fleet? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: So I'm proud to be a member of our executive team, and I have three key areas of responsibility. One is what we call our balanced scorecard, so that's translating our strategy into key objectives and measurable outcomes. That's what creates focus for the organization in each year. Secondly, I have the people function, so everything regarding human resources from start to finish. And then thirdly, I have our global communications and events group. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's a very interesting set of roles that you have. What has the impact of COVID-19 been on Element Fleet? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: It's an unprecedented situation for our business and our people. We've seen a softening of demand as people self-isolate, work from home. And as a result, the utilization of Fleet declines. Many of our clients are making changes to their operations and their needs are changing. Our suppliers are also responding in this environment. And so we're working with both suppliers and clients to understand and adapt to their changing business environments so that we can continue to deliver a consistent superior experience. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Jacqui, how has the leadership team been working through this crisis? What's the same and, potentially, what has had to be different? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Well, the team's been on a transformation journey for the last 18 months, so it's been quite a dynamic environment in and of itself. And we would be very honest in our approach to say that it's been difficult. But we've grown as a team. We trust each other and we lead with that focus, which is anchored in our strategy. What's different is that we have to be very practical in our execution right now. And we can do that because we have created a culture of agility and accountability. And with that, we're able to play as a team, right? We all have a role. We all have a position. And we're playing both offense and defense. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Give me some examples of what that agility has looked like over the last four weeks as this crisis has unfolded. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Over the last four weeks, we've enacted our BCP, as many companies have. And we've taken the action to move 90% of our workforce to work from home. And for those that are within our facilities, we've taken all the necessary precautions to ensure that those facilities remain safe for our people. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And what does it look like in practice? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Yeah, so it looks like deep cleaning. It looks like strong security measures. It looks like really limiting the amount of work that needs to be done in the office-- because there are a few pieces of our processes that do-- to the essentials. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And I'm curious what that has been like for employees where so many people get to go work from home and some are still in the office. Has that created any tension or questions, or any concerns for folks that some people actually still need to go to the office every day and others are getting to work from the safety of their homes? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: It's actually created a feeling of connection and we're all in this together. We are rotating staff in and out of the office so that we don't have a full complement there. And that's doable because we have seen a slight softening of demand. And people are reaching out and making sure, what can I do? And also trusting in our leadership because of the credibility we've built throughout the transformation, that we're taking the necessary steps and we're putting our people first, and their health, and well-being. And the last thing I'd say is we communicate every day. We have a goal of transparency beyond anything I've ever seen. TINEKE KEESMAAT: What does that communication look like every day? Is that an email? Is it live chats? How are you communicating each day to team members? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: So it's been really fun. It's been tough messages but in creative ways. So we commit a daily update to our senior leaders. And then the following day, we send out employee communications. It can be over email. Our CEO recently did his own production of a video, which was so comforting and endearing. And people have responded wonderfully to it as we all learn how to work from home. We sent out a virtual care package. TINEKE KEESMAAT: What was in that? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Yeah, so it was just a number of tips, and links, and information to help everyone adjust to working from home-- parents of younger children, people who are caring for family members-- just even apps that can help you be mindful, workouts, tips for healthy eating, exercise. And people got it. And they just responded in numbers to say, thank you for thinking of me because I don't even know where to start. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Well, that sounds sounds a very holistic, whole-person approach, right? It's not just come and get this work done it. It's hey, we recognize that this is uncharted, uncomfortable times and we want to take care of you as a person, not just an employee. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Absolutely. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Talk to me a little bit about helping people transition to working at home. You mentioned some people are caring for others, some people have small kids. How are you helping people think through how to be productive from wherever they're situated today? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: The challenge is we will all feel like we need to be on 24/7 and there's no clear division of work and home anymore. And so we need to step into that, and acknowledge, and accept that it's OK if children run in, dogs run in. It's OK if you need to take a break, step away. We've really got to create a structure, and a beginning, and an end to the workday. At the same time, we also ask that some of our people be available 24/7 in the event that we need to respond quickly. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And the structure-- so, is everybody expected to be on from 9:00 to 3:00? Or are sub-teams coming up with their working hours? How are you creating a structure that is both productive so that folks can get into a flow but also flexible to accommodate the dogs running in, and the children, and the random things that happen when you are just at home? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Structure feels somewhat nonexistent in this environment. I think what we're looking at is starting with, what's the work that needs to get done? Who are the people that we have? We do have excess capacity in some of our people. How do we redeploy them to where the priorities are or where they're needed most? Because we have some clients whose demand is increasing and we have others whose demand is softening. And so we're looking at active redeployment. And then lastly, I would say the tools that we have, we all-- it was amazing what our technology team did in a week, not even a week. I would say in three days, we had 90% of our workforce working from home. We had a gentleman drive a U-Haul truck with 90 monitors-- TINEKE KEESMAAT: Wow. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: --from one site to the other site. These selfless efforts are part of who we are and we share those stories, both what we're doing for each other and what we're doing for our clients, particularly in the health care industry. And it is so uplifting. People just want more and more of that. And lastly, I would say these tools, it's hilarious when you're sitting with the executive team on Zoom and we're all learning, oh, if you click this, you raise your hand. TINEKE KEESMAAT: [LAUGHS] JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Oh, if you click this, you have the cool moon background. And it's almost somewhat juvenile but hilarious at the same time, right? We're forced to use these tools and in a fun, collaborative way. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And isn't it amazing how people that I've been really shy about tools or thinking that they're complex, how quickly people can learn and adapt? I think of some of my clients that-- oh, we're going to move to remote work. We will get there. But we have to go through these massive programs to get our teams ready. And yet like you said, in the course of three days, you've got 90% of your staff up and running on it. And I think it's fascinating just what is possible in organizations and how adaptable people actually can be when they need to be. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: The journey that we've been on, as I mentioned earlier, our transformation, it hasn't been easy. We've asked a lot of our people. We've made some difficult decisions. But through all that, the one thing that we have committed to is open, honest, frequent communications from our CEO right out through the organization. And we have committed that even through the most difficult decisions. And it's created that trust, right? And it's not something to take lightly because that can easily break if we don't follow through in this environment in particular. TINEKE KEESMAAT: There might be some people listening to this who haven't got the right communication channels in place yet or they've not been the most open with team members. How would you advise them to get started? Because in this particular moment, it is more important than ever. Any advice for folks getting started, particularly at this rather unique time in our world? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Well, it starts with going back to the basics. Our CEO, Jay Forbes, laid that out as a key principle in our strategy when we started our transformation 18 months ago. And a lot of us went, what does that mean? And we quickly realized that it starts with the understanding of, what is the work we do? How do we work? Who do we work with? Why are we doing this, our purpose? I don't mean to get philosophical on you. But I do think when you go back to your core purpose and the basics of how you work, you can think of it similar to how you communicate. And so let's now think we don't collide into each other at work because we're not physically present. I now need to create those collisions by setting up a daily meeting, a weekly huddle. I need to put one-on-ones with my direct reports into the calendar where I could have crossed the hall and knocked on their door. These are basic means of ensuring those connection points throughout the day. And then encouraging people to come together and solve the problems in front of us and collaborate. This is-- I mean, we talk about collaboration, Tineke, so many times we've talked about it. This is collaboration at its best. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Right. Because there's no choice. There's no perfect answer. As you said earlier, there's no playbook. And there's just really tough problems everyday that companies are having to face. And so people need to be in it together in order to come up with the best possible solution in this moment. So collaboration-- I can see that the need for it is exponentially higher than people have experienced in the past. And I think some people think, well, how can I collaborate if I don't have those collisions and if not sitting in the room with somebody? How are you guys using technology to facilitate people collaborating from a distance? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: It's almost expected, just assumed that we'll all jump on Zoom. We'll use our cell phones. And you know, it's funny. At the beginning of this, I would think about-- OK, so I've showered, I have makeup, I've dressed appropriately. Now it's like, OK, some days I need to put my hair in a ponytail and ask for forgiveness on what you're going to see. Because-- TINEKE KEESMAAT: [LAUGHS] JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: --this is isn't about looking pretty. This is about being present. TINEKE KEESMAAT: It's amazing. From where I've sat, I've had so many client conversations or colleague conversations-- very humanizing, right? So I'm seeing the insides of people's homes. I'm seeing their children. I'm seeing people on bad hair days. I'm seeing people that have literally just come in from a run and their ponytails are all crazy. And it's interesting. It's not getting in the way of productivity and it's helping me to connect with people in a different way than I have in the past. So I think it's very interesting that you've just raised that point that it isn't about looking pretty. It's just about being in the work together. And it is creating a way to connect that we may not have had in the past. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Yeah, it's being authentic, right? And that is what society, I think, forgets, is bringing your authentic self to every situation. Some days you're going to have good days. Some days you're not going to have good days. It's being present with yourself and your team. And I read something this morning. The common question we ask people is, how are you? How are you doing? And often, we don't listen to the response. Well, now we've got to listen. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And I imagine that you are getting answers to that question at a time where people feel like hey, I'm actually not doing really well, I'm scared at this moment. Or my husband is in a job and there's economic uncertainty with his. So how are you encouraging your leaders to really listen. And in those moments where an employee may not be having the best day ever, how are you encouraging them to connect? Or what resources are you providing to help people through these moments? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Yeah, I would say three things. One, build in the space. And I know that's hard because we're jumping from one call to the next Zoom meeting. But try to build in space such that you, yourself, can get up from your workstation and just go for a quick walk around the house. Grab a healthy snack. But create that space so you are present. And the reason I start with that is because a leader needs to be present, right? Because the second point I would say is put the camera on. Look at people. See how they're doing. Is there a question in their eyes? Is there pause? And ask them. Be curious. What's going on? Talk to me. And if they can't right now, then give them the space. But come back to them. Don't forget them. And the third thing I would say is there are so many wonderful resources. Bring those into the workspace. Make them available. You don't have to have the best written communication. You can do things through PowerPoint. You can do things through email. You can do a quick video. There's so many tools being made available now. And leverage the generations, right? We've got people with so much experience and we've got people new to the organization. This isn't about hierarchy. This is about us all bringing our ideas to the table and leveraging the best of those ideas. TINEKE KEESMAAT: The great equalizer, right? Focus on the ideas versus the role-- yeah, interesting. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Oh, totally. I mean, this virtual care package that we created came from an individual that is quiet but creative. And we leveraged that person who doesn't sit on the communications team but who had capacity. So again, back to-- we want to protect our workforce. We want to leverage the capabilities within it. So let's be curious about who can do what and try things on. And again, just slowing down to speed up. That's an advice that I took from somebody a long time ago. And I've tried myself to remember it. It really helps when you slow down and pause because then you're in the mindset to listen more effectively. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's great. I'm curious about you personally. It must be very difficult to be in a leadership role, and particularly one focused on the well-being of people, in a time when people are under so much stress. You raised a point around, hey, as a leader, you need to present. You need to up and take a walk. You need to make sure that you are able to be there for your team members. How are you managing the stress or how are you thinking about your own self-care through this? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: I try to get up at 5:00, maybe 5:30. Because being on the west coast, I start at 7:00 AM if I'm lucky. And so if I don't exercise, eat, and shower, it could be a tricky day. [LAUGHS] So I try to do work through things. And look, I'm not looking to win any awards for the best bod by any means. But I do my 20 minutes of yoga. I have my brief little breakfast. And I at least try to shower. [LAUGHS] You know, there's something normalizing about that, right? Whereas if I was rolling out of bed every day doing this, I think I'd feel out of place. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Right. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Because I need to bring my routine to bear at home. So there's a comfort with that. The other piece that I would say is I travel quite a bit. And so I've been grounded since March 9. And my family loves it because I'm home. And I would say there was a bit of a reprieve initially. Like, oh, I have so much time on my hands. I don't have to pack. I'm not going to an airport. But with that, the weeks feel long and hard. And so the other thing we try to do every day is get out for a walk with the dog. And that happens towards the end of the day, and it has been a lifesaver just to feel the air and the sun, and see people at a distance. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Yes. [LAUGHS] JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Be outside and part of the world. It's very healing. TINEKE KEESMAAT: It's been a big difference maker for myself and my 3 and 1/2 year old as well. The days we get him outside are the better days. And he is just a kid playing outside and making people laugh as they walk by because he's screaming at the top of the lungs, hello world! And so-- JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: [LAUGHS] TINEKE KEESMAAT: --I think that outside world is just-- it is very comforting. And even if you're at a distance, you can smile and say hi to people. And that, I think, helps me, personally anyways, believe that we're going to be OK and that people still can connect even if they can't be standing right beside each other. So that outside piece has definitely been huge for us as well here. I'm curious. I know sometimes it's all uncertain and we're not sure what's going to happen next. But even in this moment, I'm curious if there's been any positive lessons that you've seen, or observed, or that you've learned that you think you may actually adopt to how you work going forward. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Oh, I think a big one is being practical in our execution. TINEKE KEESMAAT: [LAUGHS] JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Really. I mean, we strive for perfection. We can over-rotate on decisions. And I think right now, time is not our friend. And we need to be focused on what matters most and be practical in our execution. So we might not get it perfect. But we ask for your trust and we're doing our best. And where we don't get it perfect, you will know because we will own that. And where we do get it perfect, we will make sure that we thank the people that helped us get there. It's not one person. It's a team. I mean, I'm terrible with sports analogies. TINEKE KEESMAAT: [LAUGHS] JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: At college they were much better. But we are a team right now. We're in this together. TINEKE KEESMAAT: That's great. And what is your hope for other leaders during this time? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: When people ask, how are you doing? Or they ask, wow, how difficult this must be. How are you coping? And I think that my job is easy compared to those that are on the front line, those that are doctors, or nurses, or health care workers. And so my hope is that we never forget how fortunate we are to live in a community where we do care about the health of others. And we need to bring that into our workplace. And the health and well-being of our people continues to be our first priority. And as leaders, we need to remember that. Our people are our greatest asset. And I know when people say that, it sounds philosophical more than real. But in these times, remember that and act with that objective in everything you do. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And is there a practical piece of advice that you'd have for leaders on how to do that effectively? So how do they make people our most important asset? How do they make that more than philosophical? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: I think you have to remember that each individual is a whole person. So what they bring to work, there is more to them than that. And in this environment, this is beyond anything we've ever seen. Remember, we don't have the answers because we haven't been here before. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Right. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: So remember the whole person is what you see. And they may not share that whole person. And so just be mindful, and curious, and be your authentic self. Show vulnerability. Because you too are a whole person. And some days, you may not be your best self. And we will forgive that, right? Because we are human and we're a community that's going through something incredibly unprecedented. It's just unbelievable what we are experiencing. And we will live through this, and we will learn from it, and we will be better for it. But wow, is it ever scary, is it ever different. TINEKE KEESMAAT: And it's hard, in that difference and the scariness, to balance between that and then productive work, right? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Absolutely. TINEKE KEESMAAT: So I think there is a need for leaders to just recognize that when I'm having a moment of, holy heck, what's going on? Are we going to get through this? You might be having a productive moment. And so you may have a collision of where you are on that cycle. And just being conscious of that so that you can kind of work through it together and meet people where they are in that particular moment. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Absolutely. And say, hey, I've got this. Give it to me. I'll take it because I know tomorrow I might not be able to, and you'll take it. So we're here for each other, right? That's what families do. That's what communities do. That's what our health care workers are doing for us right now. They're putting themself in the most dangerous situation and we need to appreciate that by staying home, staying safe, and enabling them to do what they do best. NARRATOR: And now let's get to know our guests a little better with some rapid-fire questions. TINEKE KEESMAAT: So Jacqui, one of the things that we like to do on LeaderLab is to help our listeners get to know you better as a person. And in these crazy times, we do think humanization and humor is needed. So don't think too much to the answers that you have. They're really just intended to be fun, five quick questions. First, what is your go-to comfort food? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Peanut M&Ms. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Peanut M&Ms, very specific. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Let's be clear, yes. TINEKE KEESMAAT: [LAUGHS] Number two, what is your preferred re-energizing time, going for a workout or curling up with a book? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Oh, Netflix. Not a book, not a workout-- Netflix! TINEKE KEESMAAT: One item you could never live without. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Peanut butter. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I'm sensing a theme with peanuts here. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: [LAUGHS]. TINEKE KEESMAAT: Your favorite cartoon character of all time. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Oh, I don't know! Oh my god. Does that make me a bad person? TINEKE KEESMAAT: Not at all. I don't think I have one, actually. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: [LAUGHS] TINEKE KEESMAAT: Your work from home attire-- PJs, fully dressed in a suit, or a little bit of both? JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Oh, it's a little bit of both, right? It's all professional from the waist up and then it's comfy slippers on the bottom down. TINEKE KEESMAAT: I love it. Jacqui, this has been amazing. And again, you started this by talking about your curiosity and your care of people. And I've been struck by everything that you have said today is just how that curiosity and care is leading you to make amazing decisions for yourself and for your team. So I really appreciate you sharing your tips, and tricks, and advice, and for leading people through these uncharted times. JACQUI MCGILLIVRAY: Well, I am honored that you asked me to join you. I think the world of what you're doing here. And I hope that your voice reaches many because it's comforting, it's reassuring, and it makes me smile. TINEKE KEESMAAT: [LAUGHS] Oh, that's good. Thank you. NARRATOR: Thank you for joining us today on LeaderLab. LeaderLab is powered by Tilco, helping exceptional leaders achieve extraordinary results, and the Ivey Academy at Ivey Business School, Canada's home for learning and development. You can learn more about Tilco and LeaderLab at Tilco.ca. And to find out more about the Ivey Academy, go to IveyAcademy.com. [MUSIC PLAYING]  

It’s not every day we chat with someone the New York Times has listed as part of “the new vanguard” in fiction. But today’s our day: Carmen Maria Machado is live on NYG! We sit down with the badass author, National Book Award finalist, and fellow Philly resident for a conversation about writing, working retail, believing in your own work, craving the company of other women, and so much more. > The art of non-dominant groups can be trendy, but we think of men and whiteness and straightness as, like, eternal… And of course that’s fake, right? Like, that’s not real: men, and white, and straight, and cis, and all those things… are not neutral, but we think of them as neutral. > —Carmen Maria Machado, author, Her Body and Other Parties Here’s what we cover: The “fat women with fat minds” of Carmen’s “The Trash Heap Has Spoken” essay in Guernica How a retreat at the Millay Colony for the Arts kickstarted her writing career The wild popularity of “The Husband Stitch,” Carmen’s story in Granta (which, like, just read it already) What it’s like to go from working at the mall to full-fledged famous author in a few short years The exploitative mess of the adjunct teaching market Carmen’s review of Danielle Lazarin’s new book, Backtalk, and how women internalize the “slow, invisible grind” of misogyny Why Claire Vaye Watkins’ essay “On Pandering” and Kristen Roupenian’s short story “Cat Person” struck such a nerve Craving the company of women in a culture full of far too much bullshit Finding the confidence to divest from sexist culture, take up space, and acknowledge your talents out loud Plus: why city snobbery is bullshit, the incredible joys and health benefits of naps (seriously, just thinking about a nap can even lower your blood pressure)—and why y’all should just visit Philly already. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re talking about. WordPress—the place to build your personal blog, business site, or anything else you want on the web. WordPress helps others find you, remember you, and connect with you. _ _ Transcript Katel LeDû [Ad spot] Shopify is leveling the playing field for entrepreneurs with software that helps anyone with a great idea build a successful business. More than 50 percent of the business owners they power are women—across 175 countries. And they’re growing their world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit shopify.com/careers to find out how they work [music fades in, ramps up, plays alone for ten seconds.] Jenn Lukas Hi! And welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KL I’m Katel LeDû. Sara Wachter-Boettcher And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. Today on No, You Go we’re talking with one of my favorite authors, Carmen Maria Machado. This first book of stories, Her Body and Other Parties, was just listed as one of 15 remarkable books by women that are shaping the way we read and write fiction in the 21st century by the New York Times. Like, seriously. Carmen’s also a Writer in Residence at the University of Pennsylvania, which means she lives right here in Philly. And that got me thinking a lot about place. You know, like in a lot of industries we sort of expect people who are ambitious to live in a specific location. Like, you’re a writer, gotta move to New York! Oh you’re in tech? Well why aren’t you in San Francisco? But, like, Philly is great. There’s so much amazing stuff happening here, and I wish more people knew that. JL Ugh! I love Philadelphia. You should see the Philadelphia tattoo I have across my abs. Just kidding [all laughing]. KL I was like, “What?!? Show me!!!” SWB My god. JL But I do in spirit. In spirit it’s there. Just, uh, just Ben Franklin hanging out [KL chuckles] eating a—Ben Franklin eating a pretzel right on my bicep. KL Love it. Very on brand [laughs]. SWB Can we all get like matching Ben Franklin eating a pretzel tattoos? KL Or just like a Liberty Bell? Something small, tasteful. SWB What do you love so much about Philly, Jenn? JL Ugh. I’ve been in Philadelphia for… woah. 18 years? SWB Wow! KL Woah! JL How’d that happen? [2:04] SWB Like your whole adult life! JL Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. And at first I didn’t love Philadelphia. I came here from Boston and I was just like, “Why—what am I doing still in the cold?” I guess is what I was thinking. And, I don’t know, I felt like there’s just something that wasn’t great and then within like two years it just grew on me. I loved that it’s flat, it’s cheap, and it’s got a lot of great people, and so much good food. But it’s got that—Philadelphia has this interesting thing in that uh it has like, people will say like this inferiority complex of a city of where, you know, we’re between DC, New York, Boston, and always something to prove. I feel like there’s a lot of that which I think has led to a lot of great innovation. A lot of people just like building lots of stuff to be like, “No, look! Look at all this amazing things that like that we have here.” I had the chance once to work for visitphilly.com website, which was probably one of the best projects I ever worked on because there was just having a chance every day to come in and work on something that showcased our fine city. And I think it’s so important to have pride in where you live, because it’s where you [chuckles] spend your time. KL I feel like—I lived in New York for five years of my life, like my late twenties, and I loved it, it was great. And coming from DC it was sort of like I got the sense that people were kind of like, “Oh, you finally moved to like a real city,” which totally felt like not at all. And then when I got back to DC after living in New York, people were kind of like, “Why would you ever leave New York?” And there are, you know, personally a lot—a million reasons why I left New York. I feel like it’s odd to get that reaction depending on where you live. And when I was in DC for that second time, I was working at National Geographic. So when I told people where I worked they were like, “Oh! Well that’s amazing.” And I’m like, “Yeah. That’s where HQ is. It’s in DC.” Like— SWB I think one of the things that’s so frustrating to me about talking places is that—is that kind of reaction that you’re talking about, that like, “Oh! You live there!?” I remember this one time I was having brunch with a friend of a friend in New York, we were in Brooklyn, and she—this woman, I didn’t know her very well, she asked me where I lived, and I said I lived in Philly, and she goes, “Oh Philly? Well, it’s a good starter city for New York.” And I looked at her and I was just like, I just like dead-eyed her, and I was like, “Or it’s a place that people live by choice?” It was so—it was just like one of those throwaway comments for her, because in her head, her assumption was like basically everybody was just trying to move to New York, and, like, you would only live somewhere else if you like couldn’t make it in New York or whatever. And I’m like, “I don’t want to live in New York.” I like New York. It’s fine. But I—what I think is—is important to remember and I think about this a lot for the podcast is like there are people doing awesome shit literally everywhere, and one of the things that we can do is do a better job of seeking that out. You know? Finding folks in all kinds of places. Like, way back I think in our second episode we talked to Eileen Webb who lives in northern New Hampshire and is doing all of this awesome work on accessibility, and strategy, and the web, and like… she lives on a farm. And like why not? Why the hell not? Why can’t we look at people doing great stuff everywhere. [5:25] SWB [Continued] So that brings me back to something that I loved about talking with Carmen, who is doing this amazing work as an author and becoming like straight up a famous writer. And she’s right here in Philly! And I suspect in like all kinds of cities out there you would find people who are just like top of their game in their fields, working from all kinds of unexpected places. JL And not just cities. I mean more rural areas, towns, I think one of the things that we always have to keep in mind that we do here is that there’s things about Philly that I love, obviously, and then there’s things about Philly that I don’t like, and that’s true of any place. And so I think the trick is finding that balance of someplace that you really like to be that helps you be the best you. KL Thinking about the idea of a “starter city” assumes that, you know, everyone has the same resources or lifestyle that would allow you to just like move wherever you want to go and move to, you know, a really potentially expensive city or place that, you know, you might just not have the resources that kind of work in that area that you can—that you can really have access to. So, I don’t know, I think it’s—I want to pay more attention to, like Sara said, you know, the work that people are doing that aren’t on the coasts or aren’t, in the places that we know are networks and all of our friends are. I think it’s kinda cool that we start looking at that. SWB Well, with that, can we go ahead and get to the interview because I am super hyped to have everybody listen to this interview with Carmen. KL Agh! I can’t wait [music fades in, ramps up, plays alone for four seconds, ramps down]. KL [Ad spot] We want to be able to share our voices our way through our website, and we use WordPress to help us do that because it gives us freedom and flexibility. Make your site your own when you build it with WordPress. They offer powerful ecommerce options from a simple yet effective buy button to a complete online store, and WordPress customer support is there for you 24/7 to help you get your site working smoothly. Plans start at just four dollars per month, so start building your website today. Go to wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off any new plan purchase. That’s wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off your brand new website [music fades in, ramps up, plays alone for four seconds, fades out]. SWB Over a year ago I read this amazing essay in Guernica called “The Trash Heap Has Spoken” about women refuse to apologize for taking up space. “Fat woman with fat minds”, as the author, Carmen Maria Machado, put it. It was a gorgeous essay and it’s one that I actually still think about all the time. So when her book came out last year I devoured it immediately. Fast forward just a few months and Her Body and Other Parties, a book of stories that defy genre, that are fantastical, and erotic, and queer, and just were really captivating to me, has been awarded about a zillion prizes. It’s been a bestseller, it was a finalist for the National Book Award, and somehow, despite all of that huge success, we still managed to get Carmen Maria Machado here to be interviewed on No, You Go. And literally she is here today. She is in our studio, also known as my office in south Philadelphia, and I am extremely excited to chat with her and also a little bit nervous [laughter]. Carmen, welcome to No, You Go. [8:33] Carmen Maria Machado Thank you for having me. SWB So, first up, ok, after I read that essay in Guernica I found out that you went to college with a friend of the show, Lara Hogan. And she said that you did photography together. So, first up, like when did you start pursuing writing as a career, and sort of what was that path for you? CMM Yeah! Well, I’ve always sort of—I’ve been a writer or a person who writes, or sort of organizes her mind around writing, for my entire life. I’ve been that way since I was a kid. Um and when I got to college I thought to my—like I wanted to be a journalist, that was sort of my way out. Like, “Oh, I’ll have health insurance and also, you know, have a job, and like be a writer.” And of course this was like 2004, I got to school, I started journalism classes and I did not like them. I was like, “This is not me, I don’t like—I do not have a nose for news. I don’t like hunting news stories. I don’t like talking to people on the phone.” Like all of these things that would be required of me as a journalist are things that just bore me or make me too anxious, and I don’t want to do it, even though I like writing. So I sort of moved around, I switched majors a few times. I was like lit for a hot second, and then I switched to something else, and then finally I took a photography class and I absolutely loved, and so I ended up getting like an independent study major where I sort of combined a lot of things including writing and photography and fine arts, where I met Lara. And so, yeah, so then like I had this idea of like being a photographer [smacks lips] that did not last for long [laughs] but I’ve never supported myself doing it. I worked all kinds of jobs [chuckles] um it’s just never been a thing that really like worked out for me. So I have a really nice Instagram account. That’s like the way that my student loans that I’m still paying off [laughing] that’s what they’re still going towards is a really well curated Instagram account and that’s about it. And then after school I was living in California, just sort of working some random jobs, and it wasn’t until I went to grad school which would’ve been in 2010 that I really started thinking about writing as a career, and as a thing that I could pursue sort of more professionally. SWB And you were in grad school in Iowa, right? [10:30] CMM Yes. Mm hmm. SWB What was that experience because it’s a pretty intense program, right? CMM Yeah I mean it’s the—so it’s the oldest program in the country which is sort of where it gets its reputation from. Um, you know, there’s a lot of really wonderful who’ve gone there. Uh I had a really good time. It was really nice to be able to go to a program that was funded, that I was able to just like write, and like not have to worry about work, and not have to worry about anything else. Like I was just—I had to do a little bit of teaching which also was nice because then I discovered that I really liked teaching um which before I did not realize. SWB Speaking of teaching [mm hmm], I saw that after grad school you had ended up kind of back in the Philly area, adjuncting uh while also working at the mall, and—and I’m curious like when do you feel like it all started to come together for you, career wise? CMM That’s a really good question. I mean it sort of happened in stages. So while I was in grad school, I— through a friend I met my now wife and we were dating long distance and decided after I was finished that we wanted to move in together wherever we would live. So she was living in Boston at the time, I was living in Iowa City, and we decided to do—to come to Philadelphia because it was like an affordable city we could live in and we had both—she had lived here before, I had never had but I grew up in Allentown. So not too far away. So yeah so we got here and in the beginning I mean, yeah, I was really struggling. Like she was working full-time and was more or less supporting us. I was, you know, adjuncting and working a retail job, and making like barely anything. I was really struggling. Yeah, I was going to King of Prussia mall… I was driving back and forth every week. And it was horrible. And I was very stressed out and sad and was, you know, sort of plugging away at some work, and was just writing some stories and, I don’t know, feeling like maybe I had made a mistake, or maybe like writing wasn’t in the cards for me professionally. And… it was really hard to write because I was physically exhausted all the time, just from the—from standing like teaching, you know, it is exhausting in its own way but like with working at the mall, I was just like on my feet all day, I was driving really really far back and forth and I was exhausted. So um at some point I applied for a writing residency at the Millay Colony for the Arts which is up in upstate New York and I got in for a session. So I quit my job, went there for a month, and like wrote a bunch of stuff. And that actually got me [smacks lips] back in this really nice headspace where I suddenly found myself able to be like, “I have a whole book here, and I can just kind of get it all pulled together.” And so I had written this story called “The Husband Stitch,” which is probably my most famous short story. I have a friend—someone has called it my hit single [laughter and laughing:] Like it is kind of like my hit single. It’s like the story people usually know of mine and so, yeah, and I had an agent at this point, and I sent it to him, and he submitted it to magazines and Granta ended up picking it up. And putting it on their website. And so that became—that was sort of like the trying point for me because that story did really well, people really responded to it, because it was online people were able to share it, and there was like a lot of sort of movement around that story. And, in fact, I believe last year they told me it was still their most read story at their website. But even though it’s three years old. Like it’s been out for three years but like, they were like, “Oh yeah, no, like there’s just a ton of traffic to that story. It’s like—it’s like a really highly trafficked page on the site.” So um so yeah so that was sort of the moment, like once I had that, and then I started putting together this collection and then, yeah, in about a year. So that would’ve been in 2014, so then I sold the book in 2015. Like in the fall. [14:03] CMM [Continued] So yeah and then once that happened and then I started—and then got like this offer at Penn where I’m now the Writer in Residence. So I suddenly had a teaching job where I had like health insurance. And like [laughs] a living salary [laughs], and like all these other things. Um and that was pretty awesome. So… so yeah. So that’s—it just ended up sort of working out nicely where that became like the place where my career sort of turned, and people started to pay attention, and sort of knew who I was, and everything has sort of followed from there. SWB And I think for listeners who don’t know about the adjunct teaching market, it’s a, I don’t know, exploitative nightmare. I would say [chuckles]. So like if you’re curious what the difference is between adjuncting and having a fellowship at Penn where you have benefits, it’s like night and day. A lot of adjuncts are contingent faculty and it’s like a couple thousand dollars a semester to teach a course, and you end up making, I don’t know, probably less than minimum wage at a lot of places? CMM Oh—oh absolutely! Absolutely you’re making less than that, because like you usually have office hours, and all the grading, everything you do outside of class, and prepping for class. Yeah, no, it’s actually really bad. And it’s funny because I think sometimes students—I’ll ask occasionally like see if students have a sense of what adjuncts—like who they are or what their situation is, and even now they really don’t. And, you know, when I was in college I also did not understand what adjuncts were. Like I had adjuncts and I didn’t realize it because like to a student it’s like, “Oh you’re my teacher! Like what’s the difference?” Well it’s like, oh the difference is huge. Like adjuncts are, you know, often like broke as hell, like they’re getting food stamps and they can like barely make ends meet. So, yeah, it’s like really—it’s one of those—you know it’s a labor issue that’s like getting a lot of traction and like in Philadelphia they’re actually like the—there’s an adjunct union that’s been um unionizing various schools and they’ve been actually pretty successful which is pretty awesome but, yeah, it’s a bad situation for sure. SWB And I’m curious like you mentioned that you really loved teaching and was it difficult to balance out this feeling of like loving teaching but knowing that you’re doing it in this like kind of exploitative environment where you—you can’t actually make a living off of it? [15:58] CMM Yeah, I mean I think the hardest thing for me was that I couldn’t be there for my students in the way I wanted to be because I was just—it was just unpaid labor. So like… you know like I would grade, and I would do workshops, and I would prep lectures, and I would all this stuff, but then like if a student wanted like more feedback on something, like I wasn’t getting paid for that, you know? And so I had to say no to things. And the students didn’t understand, and some of them would be like, “Well, why can’t you do that thing for me? Like you’re my teacher.” And I was like, “Well, in normal circumstances, yes, certainly, like you know?” Yes, as a teacher, like for example if a student come to you for like a letter of recommendation or something like that—that’s part of the process, right? Of being a teacher. Is being like, “Yes, like I am at least open to the idea of writing a letter of recommendation,” for example. Um or like, “Talking to you, you know, within the semester about certain things.” Um but when you’re an adjunct like all bets are off because you’re not making any—You’re making, yeah, 3,000 dollars a class. Right? So it’s like what are you supposed to do? Like how are you supposed to like value and manage your time? That part is really, really hard and—and when students don’t understand that—and you can’t just say like, “Oh, by the way, like I’m an adjunct. Like your school does not care enough to like pay me a living wage and you need to take that up with them. It has nothing to do with me.” You know? Um so I think it’s a combination of like just because students don’t know um and then yeah, and then just like trying to decide like where do you value your time, you know, if you’re a good teacher like you want to be there for your students. Like you want to be able to help them during the semester in the way that you can but yeah like when you’re not making money or—I’m just giving them free time. Like I’m not… you know I’m not doing—So yeah it’s a bad, it’s a really bad situation. SWB Well, so your situation has changed pretty [chuckles][yeah] dramatically since then and I would like to talk about that. So, in addition to be being a National Book Award Finalist which I like to say over and over again because I think it’s fucking awesome [laughter]. Um you were just called part of “the New Vanguard” by the New York Times… uh what’s—what’s that like? CMM [Chuckles] That—well that was shock—that I was—I mean nothing that’s happened to me have I—have I expected any of it. Like if you told me like, “Oh, your weird, genre-bending short story collection that’s going to be out from an independent press is going to like do just crazily well in every respect.” I would’ve never ever ever, in a million years, I would’ve been like, “You’re crazy. That’s ridiculous. There’s no way.” Um but yeah everything that’s been happening and then, yeah, that New York Times piece where they were sort of talking about like women writers of the 21st century who have like—who are sort of showing us how we read and write—like and that my book being one of those 15 books is just completely unbelievable [chuckles]. Um— SWB So, I mean when that happens, I assume you also have a lot of sudden like demands on your time and attention. How do you negotiate that? Like how do you figure out what you’re gonna say yes to? [18:41] CMM Oh, that’s a really good question. I mean you have to, like I’m learning to be more protective of my time. The thing is that what’s weird in the beginning was that, you know, I wasn’t sure how the book was gonna do and so I said yes to everything. And then at some point you have to—right, decided like I’m not going to do this, or I’m not going to do this. And I was lucky that my wife is actually very—she’s brilliant. And very, very good at knowing all my weak spots. So, for example, this spring, she made me build in three weekends where like I was not allowed to schedule anything and it was just weekends that I have off. And at the time, I was like very grouchy about that. I was like, “Oh I don’t want to do that.” But I’m so grateful that she did that because now there are weekends where I’m like, “I don’t have do anything. I can just— I can just relax. I can do laundry!” Right. I can just like do what I have to do. SWB You can have a weekend. CMM I can have a weekend! SWB That’s called a weekend. CMM Right, yeah, it’s called a weekend. Right [laughter], where I’m not traveling. But I’ve been traveling. Except for those weekends, I’ve traveled every single weekend for the last like six months. Like I’ve just been—you know, so it’s—it’s—it’s hard. And I think it’s also like remembering, right? Like it’s ok that right now I’m doing that, but then like knowing that this summer I’m going to a residency and I’m gonna go back to working because like I haven’t been writing and that’s been making me really sad. So like knowing that I have that on the horizon, you know, saying no to things. Like saying, you know, and like I sort of have a set of criteria so if I get asked to do something. It’s like, you know, do I know the person whose asking me? Is it something that I really want to do? Like I’m like, “Oh I want to be with that publication, or I want to—” You know there’s like a reason. Sometimes I think it’s just—it fun. Where it’s like, “Ooh that sounds really cool. Yeah I do want to try that.” Um so right now I’m judging this cookbook contest for Food52 and they like asked me to do it and I was like, “That’s so weird! Yes! I do want to do that!” [Laughter] Because like [laughs] I love cooking, and like they’re like, “We’ll send you these cookbooks and you can cook from them.” And there’s like a tournament—it’s like a tournament of cookbooks or whatever. And I was like, “Yeah! Yeah I do want to do that. That’s so weird.” So like I’ll say yes to that sort of thing. So it just becomes a matter of like figuring out what my priorities are, like, you know, so I sort of run every opportunity through like a little set of filters where I’m like, “Does it have this? Does it have this? Does it have this?” And I’ll say yes or no. SWB Yes I’ve had those periods. I mean I travel a lot for work things and conferences and book things and it’s like… I’m mostly pretty good at it, and then I realize, I’m like, “Oh no. I have limits.” And like I need to remember them. I used to do things like book those like multi-stop trips. Like [yeah] three stops [yeah yeah yeah] and then I realized like, I’m fucking miserable every time I do it and it was like, “What if you just didn’t do that anymore?” [Right, right] “What if you just said no to things that would require that?” And I found that—that was like when you talk about finding criteria and stuff it’s like, oh, notice those patterns. Like, “what are the patterns that are making you unhappy?” and getting rid of them. [21:19] CMM Yeah, or like I had someone once tell me like, “You should never do anything where the amount of money you’re being paid to do it, you’re not excited to go.” So like if you are like—if you’re like, “I don’t want to get on a plane, go to this place, do all this work, get uh go on a plane back, lose a weekend, and it’s for like 500 bucks or whatever.” Like you know like learning what is it that you actually want. Um what is worth it to you to like get out of the house or like and like leave your loved ones, and like get a on a fucking airplane which is like it’s fucking hell, [laughter and laughing] you know? SWB Yeah, I mean I also feel like um I definitely will say yes to things sometimes. I—I don’t do this anymore, but I used to have this problem where I would say yes to something and like, as I was writing the email saying yes, I had that like tight knot in my stomach— CMM Yeah, you’re like, “I don’t want to do this.” SWB Where yeah, like deep down [yeah] I didn’t actually want to say yes. And so now I try to be way more aware and like also let those emails sit a little longer. CMM Yes! Yeah this is also a thing I’ve noticed is, right, if I like—if I like don’t answer it right away, and also like it—I sort of went through this phase where I felt a little guilty about this but I said yes to some things and then I actually thought about it and then I wrote them back and I’d write them back and I’d be like, “You know I’m so sorry. Like I know I agreed to do this yesterday but I’ve been thinking about it more and I think I actually don’t have the time.” And I did that—I did that earlier this year and I was so—I almost like cried from relief and she was—and the person was super nice about it. They were like, “Don’t even worry about it. Like you’re obviously so busy. It’s totally fine.” And then I was like so happy, I was like [cries out], “Oh I’m free! Free!” Like I could’ve been stressing about this for two weeks and instead I just like said, “Nope, actually I can’t do it. Sorry.” Uh— KL And that feeling of relief is such a huge [chuckles][right! Right!] And it’s not like—it’s not like you’re waiting until the day before this thing [right, right, exactly, exactly] is going on, it’s like you are, you know, you’re—you’re paying attention to it and you’re like, “Ok, I need to just take this—remove this from my plate and my future for, you know, whatever reasons. And that’s ok.” [23:10] SWB There’s also like just the incredible unmatched joy of canceling plans [laughter]. So good. But yeah so I read a book review the other day of yours for Danielle Lazarin’s Backtalk [mm hmm] and I would love to talk about it a little bit because in there you know you talk about how it explores the “exhausting, slow poison of masculine power, the grind of the patriarchy on even the most privileged of women,” and you pose kind of a question in there, like, “How do writers divest themselves from the pressures of the dominant culture while also addressing the burdensome weight of that dominant culture?” And I think that piece and your—your Guernica essay last year, all of those things are sort of like attempting to wrangle with internalized misogyny, on some level, um and that’s something I feel like is sort of cropping up a—a good bit among feminist writers. So I’m wondering if you could talk more about that. Like, I feel like in that article you started to… you started to answer that question a little bit of like, “How do we divest ourselves of” that internalized misogyny is like… “Don’t be pleasant or easy to teach. Look mean for the camera. Just get up and go.” What does that look like? Like how do you get up and go? CMM Ugh! That’s a really huge question. I mean I think [sighs] this is the—it’s so funny I feel like there’s this, right? This idea about like you become more conservative as you get older. And I think that’s a really weird idea because I feel like every woman I know gets more and more radical the older they get because it’s like the world—the bullshit of being a woman in today’s culture, or in any culture, or any time, or whatever, is so awful that like just the longer you’re alive, the more radical you become. So I feel like I’m way more radical in terms of like my thoughts about gender than I was like ten years ago which is amazing to me, and I think is sort of the opposite of what most people would expect. Yeah so I mean I think—yeah I think right now this topic of internalized misogyny and like I—I talk about in that essay like Claire Vaye Watkins essay “On Pandering,” and I also talk about “Cat Person” the—that story in The New Yorker. All of which also deal with concept of like internalized misogyny. So like I think what’s really interesting is that right now I have a lot of thoughts about like Hillary Clinton—like I feel—I feel like there’s like a lot of… what’s in the air right now is—is like post this election and like regardless of how you feel about… Bernie Sanders or Hillary specifically, I think we can all agree like the way that misogyny played out on this really massive scale during the election was like really traumatic for women. And I think we actually have not fully addressed that trauma and I think we just went to pure panic mode because, like Trump is president and suddenly like, you know, we just gotta get past it. But like I think there’s something about… like people talk about like women—like white women voting for Trump and I think it—that is interesting not just because obviously like it’s this way in which like race—like race alliances, racism sort of trump, no pun intended, this like gender element. And the way in which women loathe themselves so deeply, on this like deep sort of cultural level, right, that like even though Hillary Clinton is like the most privileged woman probably to ever walk the fucking planet [laughter]. That she couldn’t win that election against this like incompetent, blowhard, like caricature of a sexist guy from like an ’80s cartoon. Like that to me is just an illustration of like how broken it is. Again, regardless of how you think about her specifically. And I think that like “Cat Person” is another really good example of that, in terms of that story, like where it’s all about like… it’s like, again, not about rape exactly but it’s about like what does it mean that like women—it’s like easier to have sex with a man that you’re not really that into than to like say no and walk away… because it is! And like I have been there. I have personally been there. Where it’s like [absolutely!], “I don’t want to do this.” And most women I know have been there where there like, “I really don’t want to do this but I’d rather like just not have to deal with not saying no.” And literally like that Stormy Daniels interview, I don’t know if you guys have watched it but like— [27:06] SWB I specifically did not watch it but I read about it later. But yeah that’s kinda the story too, right, it’s like, [crosstalk] “Well, I might as well do this ’cause…” CMM He’s like, “Were you attracted to him?” And she was like, “Oh no!” It’s just like [laughs] and then she was like—and then he was like, “Well, why’d you do it?” And she’s like, “Well I found myself like, ‘Here I am, like I’m stupid enough to get into his room like I might as well just like do this.’” And it’s the same like absolute like res—where it’s like ugh the resolve. It’s like, “I can’t fight this anymore. Like it just is what it is. It’s easier to have sex with this totally odious man than it to like just get out of here because he could do god knows what.” And so I feel like there’s something about that that’s really interesting and I feel like the Claire Vaye Watkins essay, again, dealing with with this idea of like women trying to align themselves with men which I think is also like a massive problem that we don’t really talk about a lot. And I feel like this narrative of sort of like, you know, women being like, “I’m just one of the guys!” I’m like I knew a woman like that in college, it was this woman who like that was literally like she was just like, “I’m just one of the dudes! Like I don’t know nuh nuh nuh,” and it always struck me as like deeply, profoundly sad and I feel like it—the more I sort of live like the more I’m like, “God! That’s the [yells] saddest, worst thing!” Um so, you know, like feminis—femininity and femaleness is so odious to somebody that they would just be like, “I reject that. Women are—” She was like, “Women are just drama queens. I rather like align myself with men.” And even queer women align themselves with like male power, so that women who aren’t even attracted to men necessarily being like, “Oh I need to like align myself in that way.” And so that to me is really interesting and I think that there’s something in there that we’re—we’re coming to this like… I don’t know if it’ll actually be a catharsis but I feel like [mm hmm]—we’re sort of—this is like sort of what’s in the air right now and I feel like we’re arriving in this place where we’re having to reckon with like… again, like not just like this cartoonish like male villainy that’s so—The problem is that like Trump is like… cartoonish male villainy, but what’s actually way worse is like, again, this slow, almost invisible grind, and the ways in which women then within themselves reinforce that, even when the, sort of, the power’s not directly not on them in that moment [mm hmm]. And I feel like that is something that we like need to figure out. And I don’t know if we will, I don’t know if that’s possible, but it’s something that is—is very interesting to me as a writer and so it’s like what I write about and so of course that book—that essay—you know, writing that review gave me a little space to like talk about that because it was—I was like, “Oh this is exactly what this book is about so like [mm hmm]. Here, I’m also gonna like talk about this idea that I have.” [29:20] SWB Yeah I mean I feel like this comes up in all kinds of fields. I mean I definitely know early in my career I… spent a lot of time hanging out with the dudes in my office because the dudes in my office were like in positions of more power, oftentimes. And they were fun! They were nice. I mean they were—they were in lots of ways great people but I definitely had a couple of years in there where it was almost like I set aside a lot of the more… like overt feminist work that I had done prior to that and was like, “I’m kinda—I’m here to, you know, get shit done and move up and make space for myself and, you know, I’ll do that by fitting in at—for a round of beers with these dudes.” And I couldn’t really see it that way at the time. Like I could not have explained that was what I was doing but looking back it’s like that was definitely what I was doing. And there came this moment where I was just like, “I don’t fucking want to.” And then I realized is that over the past several years, I mean definitely since the election but even before that, I was going through a process of sort of like… reevaluating the men in my life [mm hmm]. Um like I have a husband. I love him. His great [laughter]. Still in my life. He stayed. Um but like I definitely cut out a lot of people who I thought I was like “supposed to” like [mm hmm], or people who were “important” in my field, or whatever. Right? Like I was just like, “Oh. Is this actually bringing me anything in my life?” CMM And I do think that’s also—I think that’s part of getting older. I do feel like as you get older you’re like, “Well life is short, I will die one day [chuckling in background], I need—I can’t like waste time on people who are like making me miserable or like don’t—or don’t—you know they don’t, not that you like, not in like a self-serving way where you’ll like, ‘Only people who can help me,’ but like just being like, ‘No, like that person doesn’t give me any joy. That person like makes me feel bad about myself.’” You know, whoever. Like I want to—but then yeah, there’s this element also of like my tolerance for like, male masculine bullshit is like this big. People who are listening, you can’t see. I’m making a very tiny little notch [chuckling in background] with my fingers. It’s like almost nothing because I’m just like, “I can’t. I don’t have time for your weird shit.” [Laughter] Like, I don’t want to deal with that. I gotta live my life. I gotta make art. I got a life. But I—but I crave the company of other women. And I mean I’m queer but also like I just crave like… I think women are more interesting [laughs]. I think women are just more interesting and I feel like the—yeah, it’s like I don’t have to explain myself to women [yes]. I don’t have to explain… we just know. KL Yeah, you don’t have to explain about being or existing in—in [right]—in small facets of [right]—of ways that like seem like they should be obvious but [yeah]. SWB Right. Like when you’re like, “Well, you know, sometimes you just had sex with somebody because it was easier than leaving.” And everybody’s just like [crosstalk and laughter], “Oh yeah—I get it.” [32:00] CMM [Inaudible][Laughter]—no man. Almost no—well, I’m sure some men. But almost [sure]. Probably a very tiny percentage but every woman knows what that’s like, every single woman. It’s like, “Oh yeah,” where you’re like, “I’d rather—I don’t know what this—I don’t know this guy, I don’t know what he’ll do if I say no.” Or having to deal with like the whining and the inevitable like bullshit that’s gonna come with me saying no is just like easier for me to just like have sex and then like go away. So like that, right, well woman know that and—and I think it’s really nice to have that um and I think what’s really nice about what’s happening sort of in terms of art and writing right now is like you are getting a lot of these narratives are sort of being presented um like well before like “Cat Person” and like all these other stuff that’s been in the last couple of years. There was this really amazing piece I want to say in Buzzfeed maybe like two or three years ago that was also about this idea where it’s like not rape… but it’s like what about this exact phenomenon where it’s like it’s not rape, it’s not sexual assault, like you consent, technically, but you’re consenting because of this like larger power structure that like is totally out of your control and like, all things being equal, you would say no but like you just don’t want to deal with—You know so it’s like I’ve—this is like a thing that’s just in the air and I think we’re just like thinking about it a lot. SWB Well I think that there’s kind of a lot of stuff in the air right, you know, you touched on some of it and one of the things that—that seems to be like definitely in the air is just I mean women’s stories are—are selling now. Like in a way that, I don’t know, maybe they probably never had the opportunity to before, they probably [chuckles] would’ve sold if they had been out there in the world [mm hmm] but I feel like there’s—there’s suddenly a lot more space? I’m not sure if that’s the way right way to look at it though but I feel like there’s um so many more women authors from all kinds of backgrounds who are like getting a lot of attention and who are kind of becoming, well like “the new vanguard” or whatever, right? Like there’s like—there’s—there’s sort of an appetite for that and a—and a—more of a, I don’t know, there’s an appetite for it which maybe was always there but there’s maybe more of a willingness to publish it and more of a willingness to promote it? CMM Yeah I mean it—I feel like it’s sort of actually a bunch of different things, like I mean on one hand, not to be um, not to be cynical, but like feminism is a brand that sells. Like there is a sort of level of like… it is accept—it is a thing that is acceptable… for like companies to make money on, you know? And like so the reason, for example, that we’re seeing like so many like gay st—we’re seeing more like gay stories and more feminist stories is because right now, we’re in a place where that sort of thing is permissible and is even, like, profitable. But I don’t think that necessarily means that like, it—I don’t know if that’s as much as changing, it’s just like technology’s permitting this, certain sort of independent groups but there’s like just sort of weird little pockets that like are permitting it, and so it is like happening, but I don’t necessarily know if that means that like it’s different now, “everything’s better,” like I don’t—I don’t actually know if that’s the case. I’m also very cynical about all this. [35:03] SWB And I wonder, right, like I wonder if there’s a moment where people are like, “Oooh! We can—if we buy this book, right, like if we buy this author’s work, we think that’s gonna sell because it’s going to fit into this like group of like [totally] women of color writers who’ve sold well in previous years.” That’s a moment. That may not be a change that lasts. CMM Right. The problem is that we think, and by we I just mean like culture. We think of like, minority—the art of non-dominant groups can be trendy, but we think of men and whiteness and straightness as, like, eternal and not trendy, and just like that is—that is the natural baseline, and anything else is like a trend. So like publishing—and publishing and other sorts of art forms—might follow those trends, but ultimately we will always return to this baseline. And of course that’s fake, right? Like, that’s not real: men, and white, and straight, and cis, and all those things are not like—are not neutral, but we think of them as neutral. So I feel like, yeah, I feel like we’re in this place where like, you know, there are these like spikes, but it’s because of this trendiness that—but it doesn’t mean that’s gonna be that way forever, right? So until we re-conceive of what is neutral, like, what is the center? And if we keep thinking of maleness and whiteness, et cetera, et cetera as the center, then we’re gonna keep like cycling back to that, you know? And so I think there’s like a different way to conceive of it that is like—but again, that’s about divesting. That’s about, like, rejecting the structure altogether, of everything, which is like really different than just being like, “Rah rah!” Like, “yay!” Like it’s actually more about like pulling everything out from the roots and like starting again, and how do we that? And I don’t know. Look, I don’t know how we do that. I think that’s like a big question and I think um… you know, we’ll see. SWB Yeah. If—if the question is basically like, ok, well if we redefine what neutral is or like sort of what—what normal is and we cannot do that unless we can deal with our internalized misogyny. [Right] Right? And so it’s like, ok, well then how do we deal with that? And that’s such a huge question. Then—then, you know, it’s like—it’s a long haul to get back around to like, ok then what—what—what does the world look like after that [right] and like who the hell knows. But I’m—I’m curious: what has that meant in your personal work in your life? So, like, how did you get to a place where you felt like you had the confidence to show up with, you know, your, I’ll use your quote from earlier, with your “fat mind,” [chuckling in background and chuckles] and like and to say like, “I’m here and I’m going to take up space and I’m going to tell the stories that I want to tell, and I’m going to do them in these genres that don’t—that haven’t really been recognized, or I’m going to take genre and I’m gonna do whatever the fuck I want with it.” Like how did you get to a place where you felt like that was something that you could do? [37:51] CMM I wish I could say that it was all internal because certainly part of the process is like, being like, “I am going to do this thing.” Part of it was actually—but part—a lot of it was other people, you know? I was lucky in that like I had like my girlfriend slash wife who’s like brilliant and I trust and love, like being like, “This is really awesome. This is really different.” There were other people in my life like really encouraging me and like, you know, readers who read my work and wrote to me and, you know, so there were like these other sort of forces working. And then at some point I—I feel like I was looking at what I was doing and I was like, “I have something to say.” And, you know, the interesting thing about being like a writer or being any kind of artist is like you have to have an ego. Because, you know, you have to say like, “What I’m creating is important enough that I think other people should pay for it, should read it. It should be published, or it should be presented,” or whatever, and like that requires an amount of ego where you’re like, “I think that what I have to say is that important.” Um and I think sometimes people forget that element of it or they—or they—they’re like, “Oh like this person is so arrogant,” or whatever but it’s like no, no, you have to believe that, or else why the fuck are you writing? What’s the point? Or why are you making whatever art? So at some point I had to be like, “Yes, like I’m really good at this. I’m gonna—I’m gonna do it and I’m just gonna make this happen.” And that felt really amazing, and it felt really—and it felt right. And now—so it’s like I had to get over this hump, and then at some point, like obviously like the books are doing really well and I was like, “Ok so I wasn’t—” But even the book hadn’t done well I think I still would’ve felt that way like, “I’m good at what I do.” Like I know that I’m good at—I’m not good at a lot of things. Like, you know, I can’t draw to save my life. Like, you know, I’m really bad at dancing, like I’m not a fast runner, when I paint walls it’s always really crooked, like there I do not have a lot of skills but I know that I’m a good writer. And that—I can say that and like I know that’s true. And I would never—you know, I don’t ever say things like I, yeah, I would never claim to be anything that I’m not and like—but I know I’m a good writer. And I have that. I have that. And so… I can sort of move forward that and that’s like in my arsenal of like getting through my life and like getting through everything um and knowing that and believing that. So… yeah. I don’t know. So I think it is like—it’s, yeah, it’s partially like sort of taking from other people what they are handing to you because I think oftentimes people will say to you like, “You’re really good at this thing.” And you want to be like—especially women want to be like, [uptalking:] “No, no, no. Like I’m not—I’m not—oh, oh, you know, like I—thank you. I’m just doing what I do.” You know? And it’s like you want to—because you’re trained to like minimize yourself in that way and it’s like—it’s like saying, “Oh thank you, I worked really hard on that. So thanks so much. I really appreciate it.” And it can be scary and also for me like I get really scared when I have to admit like—Like, for example, like right now I’m working on this new book and I’m really scared that I’m not smart enough to write it and that’s really hard to admit. Because it’s like, oh my god, like, what if I’ve bitten off more than I can chew? Like what if, you know? And so now I’ve gotta like rapidly make myself the kind of writer who can get through this project, and that’s like a very terrifying challenge. But also, that’s how I know I’m getting better, because I’m like pushing myself through like these new stages of—of art and of—you know, and I read my book—my book came out in October. When I read it I’m like, “I’m already a better writer than I was when I wrote this book.” And that’s really exciting too, being like, “Oh no, like I, you know, I’m already better.” … Like I’m already sick of reading from it because I’m like, “Oh I can do better than this,” you know? [Laughs] So yeah so I feel like it’s like taking what people give you… sort of, you know, challenging yourself and pushing yourself and, you know, knowing what you’re good at, and I think also like a lot of that in—involves like being bad at things. Like, I don’t know, my dad is a chemical engineer and the poor man was trying to get me to be a scientist for like my entire life and of course I like at every turn just resisted him in [chuckles] in every way [chuckling in background]. [41:29] CMM [Continued] And I’m ba—I’m not good at math, I’m not good at, you know? [Laughs] You know like I’m not good at any of that stuff. Um but I do remember like getting I think a C in chemistry in high school and I had like a—I had like a conniption, like I was having like a nervous breakdown, and my dad was like, “Look,” he said, “Ye—did you do your best?” And I said, “I did!” Like I was going to school, I was like. He’s like, “That’s all you can do. It’s ok. You don’t—you’re not good—no one’s—no one’s good at everything.” He’s like, “I never trust people who have like straight As in absolutely everything because it’s like… it’s like you’ve gotta fail, you’ve gotta,” well he didn’t say—he didn’t say “fuck up” but I would say you gotta fuck up sometimes. You gotta be like, “I’m gonna try this thing, maybe I’ll get a little better, maybe not. Like, I’m—but also I can do this.” Or, “This thing gives me pleasure, I’m gonna do it anyway.” And I feel like there’s this way of just like figuring out like, yeah, like how you occupy your space and like being ok with bad at things and also being comfortable with being good at something and men are good at both those things. Men are really good at being like super confident in everything that they’re doing and also like fucking up royally at the same time. SWB And they just move on! CMM They’re just going on! Right! And like women are just like, “Aaaaaah!” [Laughter in background] And I feel like it’s like because we’re just taught to do that, we’re taught to like [inaudible crosstalk] freak out and agonize at every turn. And it’s like you don’t have to live your life that way. That’s like a prison. That’s fake. So, yeah, so I don’t know, and this is all stuff that I’ve only realized in the last like few years of my life, you know? And so there’s something really freeing about that. SWB I love it so much. CMM I’m so glad [laughs]. SWB I love it so much because, you know, we talk about this a lot on the show. This sort of like… having other—like when other people come to you and tell you you’re doing great, and like how important it is to actually listen to them and take that seriously because it’s so easy to brush it off and, again, like to come back to what—what I mentioned at the beginning, like, to reduce your own successes to luck, right? [Yeah] And to like, “Oh yeah I wasn’t—” No, like, sure, I mean, it’s not to say like there are some ways in which we all get lucky, there are ways in which we happen to have this moment, and the right thing at the right time but like, things have happened for me in ways that were good because I worked my ass off, right? [Right, yes] Like I’m good at things and that is why I’ve gotten a lot of it. [43:28] CMM And I think also recognizing because for me like people will ask me like, “What is—you’re having this moment, what does that mean?” And I’m like, “Well, like it’s a lot of things.” Like it is some amount of luck. Like there’s timing. Timing is a thing you often can’t but like good timing. Yes, I’ve worked my ass off. I’m also really privileged in a lot of ways. Like I grew up, you know, I was educated, like I grew up in a certain kind of household. Like I’ve never like been hungry, I’ve never like been homeless. Like there’s like all these things sort of working for me um so it’s like, you know, and also, yeah, I’m working really hard, and also I have some talent. And I think there’s like, like saying like, “I have a talent,” which is a thing that like is sort of nebulous and is hard to pin down and like where does it come from? And can you teach it and like I mean that’s kind of beyond purview and I could talk about that for like ten hours but there’s like that element, there’s privilege which you can’t control, there’s luck which you also can’t control, all you can control is like the hard work element. SWB Yeah, I mean I don’t know if you can teach this necessarily but it seems like something you can give to someone. CMM Or like—yeah or like let someone know about it. Yeah, no, for sure. KL Talk about it more like you’re saying, I mean I think talking to each other and talking to other women who may not just may not ha—have experience talking about this stuff or listening to people who have experienced it [yeah]. It’s, you know. SWB Or also it’s like we’ve sort of been taught to be ashamed of it. Like something [exactly] we talk about a lot is how common it is for women to feel like they shouldn’t talk about their ambitions, or talk [yes] about things they want, or like to like—yeah, like to—to—to be able to say out loud like the intentionality that they have [yeah] and put into things [yeah]. CMM Right it’s—it’s very gauche to be like, “This is what I want.” Or, “This is my goal.” SWB And I’m kind of fucking tired of that [yeah] like I don’t—I’m not interested in that. I want to hear what—what women want and [yeah] like what they’re—what they’re doing— CMM But not like in a Mel Gibson kind of way [boisterous laughter]. KL No. Never. [45:00] SWB Never. Literally never in a Mel Gibson kind of way. Carmen, thank you so much for being on the show today. CMM Oh of course! No problem, thank you [music fades in, ramps up, plays for five seconds alone, fades out]. SWB Is everybody ready for the Fuck Yeah of the Week? JL I’m so ready. SWB I’m always ready for the Fuck Yeah this week, because the Fuck Yeah this week is: naps. KL Aaaah! SWB Ugh uh do you—ok… JL How do you feel right now just saying the word “naps”? SWB I feel like I want a nap. JL You know what thinking about napping does? It can reduce your blood pressure. KL Just thinking about it? JL Just thinking about a nap! KL Oh my god. JL There was a recent study that found that just people anticipating naps was enough to lower your blood pressure. KL So we should be thinking more about snoozing. SWB Maybe this is why my blood pressure is so great because I think about naps a lot [KL laughs]. JL Everyone just stop for a second… think about a nap [sigh of relief from KL]… SWB So I don’t nap like all people nap. Like some people are like, “Oh my gosh, if I sit down for a nap it’s like two hours.” And I’m like I don’t have that kinda time. But when I take a nap, I—I take a micro nap. And— [46:13] JL What is a micro nap? And tell me more! SWB Ok. So, you know, I work at home, and, you know, sometimes you get like that afternoon lull where your brain doesn’t work that well, it’s like after lunch and you just need a minute. If I have a little bit of time something that I’ll often do is I will set my alarm for 12 or 15 minutes, and… I’ll just kind of doze off. And when I wake back up 12 to 15 minutes later, I feel so much better. And I know it sounds wild. Right? Like I know it sounds wild to be like, “Wait, you nap for 12 minutes?” JL Stop. Does this work? Is this real? SWB So it works for me and—and I’ll tell you when it works: it works when I’m having an afternoon where I’m just—I get that sluggish, tired feeling and where I’m feeling so sleepy already that I’m like, “I just can’t.” So I’m already like already pretty sleepy feeling and I figure like, instead of trying to fight it, I just lean into it, and then come back bounced back. And so for me, when I’m in that zone, I found that that kind of little break is much more productive than like trying to fight through it. So—so here’s my 12-minute story, ok: two minutes to fall asleep. Ten minutes of napping. JL And it wor—and you fall asleep within those two minutes? SWB Oftentimes I can fall into like a light sleep. JL Mmm… I’m—I feel like my blood pressure’s dropped just listening to you tell that story. KL I know! I—yeah, I have not usually been able to do that and I think now I’m listening to you say this and I’m wondering if it’s something that I could maybe just like try to practice a little bit more because when I have napped and just like been able to do it for like half an hour or something, even that is, you know, really nice and—and I feel refreshed. But I feel like I was always one of those people who I would go to sl—like go to sleep to nap and I would two hours later I would [chuckles] wake up and I’d be like, “Ah! Everything’s shot!” And then you feel terrible. SWB Yeah, I mean I can do that if I lie down for that long it’s like you’re just you’re brain foggy because you go into those deep sleep cycles. I don’t do that—it’s just like a real quick thing. Here’s the thing: you know my number one tip for getting good at the micro nap? I mean I don’t know if micro naps are gonna work for you or not, maybe they will, maybe they won’t. But my tip is like, first up… learn to feel really good about the idea. Like don’t feel bad or guilty about taking a little nap [KL absolutely].  Don’t feel like you should be doing something else, don’t feel like it’s sort of like indulgent. Feel like sometimes that is the most productive way that you could spending your time. [48:49] JL There’s so many studies about how good naps are for you. I mean like things like just being more alert, increasing your patience, reducing heart disease. SWB Oh my god, I need way more patience. So should I take a lot more naps [laughs]? JL Maybe you need to up it to [inaudible over crosstalk]— KL Yeah, definitely. SWB You know the other thing I think, though, like you were saying, Katel, like you need to practice a little bit. I do think it’s the kind of thing, like, even if you’ve mentally given yourself permission, you may not have kind of physically let go of this idea that—that taking nap is a—is, like, a weird thing to be doing. So like normalize it, and then it might get easier to fall asleep. KL Completely. I think that is absolutely true. And I think also just doing some sort of physical hygiene around that, where, you know, I’m putting myself in like a very comfortable place, and making it conducive to doing that instead of being like, “I’m gonna—I’m sitting on couch already, I’m just gonna like lay my head down,” that doesn’t always work. JL One of the things that always frustrated me as a new mom is everyone was like, “Sleep when baby sleeps.” And I’m like, “Buuut I can’t just sleep on demand,” and that would be so annoying because you can’t predict the sleep schedule of your newborn or toddler, it turns out um [laughs] and so he would go to sleep and I’d be like, “Well, I want to sleep,” but I wouldn’t be able to fall asleep and so like and I would give myself two minutes, ten minutes, 15 and I wouldn’t fall asleep and then I would just get frustrated and think about that and then I would just give up and—and do something else like eat or shower which was fine. Other necessities. But I—then I eventually realized that for me it wasn’t just about falling asleep, the idea of just lying down and giving my body and sometimes my mind a chance to just relax also was really refreshing. So I’ve gotten way better at that. So maybe not falling asleep but this idea of just breaks and resting and giving myself a chance to do that. And like you were saying, Sara, being ok with that. And also being ok if I don’t fall asleep. And I think that was one of the thing that was one of my biggest battles is I’d be like, “Napping’s not working. I’m not falling asleep.” But being like, “You know what? I’m just gonna lie here for ten minutes, 30 minutes, an hour, whenever he decided to wake back up and I’m just gonna—I’m just gonna be.” [51:04] SWB Did you ever think that you would be just like looking forward to when he’s like a surly tween or teen [laughter] and like won’t get up until 11:30 or [laughs]? So yeah, naps. I recommend it. They are Sara approved. I think you should take ‘em. I think you should feel good about them. I recognize if you work l

New Zealand-born actor, presenter, life coach and workshop facilitator Andrew Eggelton, who has starred alongside Ryan Gosling and Michael J. Fox, talks to Elizabeth Harris at Dave O'Neil's office at Grandview Hotel (Fairfield) about: The downside of being famous, and what it's really like to work in the entertainment industry. His childhood and how it helped him develop his creativity and imagination as a writer. The life-changing episode that made him dig deep and uncover his purpose. A cabin in Romania, Dracula's castle, and a dog called Darren writing a fairytale about a man writing about a dog writing a fairytale. What his Generation Y clients tell him they want most of all, and what he thinks should be taught in schools. His upcoming "Art of Play" workshops in Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane. Find out more about Andrew Eggelton's work at AndrewEggelton.com. FULL TRANSCRIPT: Elizabeth:      Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects authors, songwriters and poets with their global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-calibre guests, I invite you to go to iTunes, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. Today I’m delighted to introduce the charismatic and insightful Andrew Eggelton. Once upon a time Andrew Eggelton was a carefree child blessed with a vivid imagination, running around the fields of … Andrew:         Otaio. Elizabeth:      Thank you. I was going to ask you how to pronounce that. So Otaio, a country town 30 minutes from Timaru – is that correct? Andrew:         Yes. Elizabeth:      South Canterbury, New Zealand. After the unfortunate discovery that he could no longer be a child, his imagination and desire to challenge the conventional would still play a large part in his adult life. Now in his forties, he’s spent over 20 years in the entertainment industry working with such people as Ryan Gosling and Michael J. Fox. Andrew:         Just to name a few. (Laughter) Elizabeth:      Yes, I’m looking forward to learning more about it, Andrew. When a life-changing moment asked him to dig deep and get specific about what he was born to do. Andrew now nurtures artists to reach their fullest potential. He reminds people just how powerful remembering to play is, and to nurture the inner child before it is lost forever. Andrew uses his intuitive coaching gift to host one-to-one intensives for artists, speakers and television presenters. Andrew guides his clients from a mundane existence to an inspired powerful life. He inspires his clients to dream, discover their purpose, and then gift package this to the world. Andrew Eggelton, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. Andrew:         Nice to meet you and thank you for having me. Elizabeth:      It’s a pleasure to meet you Andrew – and to pick you up from the corner of Greville Street and Chapel Street in beautiful Melbourne. Andrew:         Yup, all in exchange just for one chai. Elizabeth:      It’s my favourite drink after all. Andrew:         Better than an Uber. Elizabeth:      Andrew, we recently discovered that we have a similar sense of humour. How do you use that wonderful sense of humour in your coaching work? Andrew:         In my coaching, I use my humour to defuse the sense of a line between me and my clients, so it allows them to realize that I’m just the same as them, and that we’re all on the same level playing field. Elizabeth:      ‘Cause it’s an equalizer. Andrew:         It’s an equalizer; takes away the ego of everybody, brings everybody down to the same level. Elizabeth:      I really like that, ‘cause I use a lot of humour too, and some people don’t understand my sense of humour, and now I’ve found one person who does, so thank you for that. You spent your childhood in a beautiful place and the school you attended was unique. Can you tell us the impact of being in such a small school, the benefits and the hindrances? Andrew:         Okay, the impact. Do you know when I first moved to the school, I was five, and there were eight pupils. Eight. And no one my age. There were two girls … Elizabeth:      Oh, were you the baby? Andrew:         I was … My dad was my teacher and principal, so that was quite challenging. Elizabeth:      Right. Andrew:         There was special treatment for sure, but probably not in the positive way - probably in the way that Dad was probably a little bit harder on me than the other children. Elizabeth:      Did that make you cry? Andrew:         Ah…it brought up some things in my later years, but we’ve worked through those now. And anyway, just to put it clear, my dad and I have a beautiful relationship. But what it taught me is that: there was no one for miles. There was no one to play with; I had no peers, so my imagination and what I did with my spare time were of my own doing. Huge bush walks and literally gone all day, you know. Elizabeth:      The importance of nature was there for you. Andrew:         Yeah, so I’d go for bush walks and leave at nine in the morning, and it wasn’t till the sun was coming down that I’d be like “Okay, it’s time to go home.” Elizabeth:      On your own? Andrew:         On my own. Elizabeth:      That self-sufficiency… Andrew:         Very self-sufficient. Elizabeth:      Were they worried about you? Andrew:         Not at all, not at all. As long as I turned up for dinner, they didn’t care. What trouble could I get into? Elizabeth:      What freedom! Andrew:         Yes, a lot of freedom. Elizabeth:      And we have a tattoo, listeners. Where is your tattoo? One of your tattoos says “Freedom”, Andrew – where is that? Andrew:         Forearm. Elizabeth:      How many tattoos do you actually have? Andrew:         Eight. Elizabeth:      And can we talk about where they are, or is that private? Andrew:         No (laughing) – I’ve got three on my left arm. “Joy”. “Kaizen”, which is Japanese for ‘little improvement every day’. I’ve got the Viking word “Inguz”, which is ‘where there’s a will there’s a way’. I’ve got “Courage, dear heart”. I’ve got Latin – “Fortune favours the brave”. I’ve got “Truth”. Elizabeth:      So a little bit like Robbie Williams, although you deny that. Andrew:         I deny I’m anything like Robbie Williams. Elizabeth:      Why, what is Robbie Williams like for you? Andrew:         Ah, I like that he’s a playful character. Elizabeth:      He’s fun. Andrew:         Yes, yes he’s fun. Elizabeth:      He’s settled down, though. Andrew:         Yes he has – and I’m looking to do the same. Elizabeth:      Oh, wonderful. What are you looking for in a woman, Andrew? Andrew:         Ah, someone who’s the opposite of me. (Laughs) Elizabeth:      What does that mean? Andrew:         You know what it is? I know exactly what I want from a woman, and that’s why I wrote that article on love that I’ll get it for you later. I want a goddess, a divine feminine woman. Elizabeth:      All women are goddesses. Andrew:         They are, they are, but in this day and age, in this day and age, if I may be so bold … Elizabeth:      You can be as bold as you like; it’s your show. Andrew:         It’s that women try to be men – they embrace so much masculine energy that it really sort of emasculates the men. And for me, being a woman is such an amazing gift. Elizabeth:      How do you know? You’re not a woman. (Laughs) Andrew:         Only by observation. I mean, you’re the closest thing to Mother Earth that there is. Elizabeth:      Can you explain that for the people who are not quite on your level of understanding? Andrew:         Okay. Mother Earth means like that nurturing soul, the ability to have a child. Elizabeth:      Is it like when I shut your fingers in the window this morning and I said were you okay. I am a nurse and I am concerned about your fingers. Is it like that? Andrew:         Well it’s kind of like that, but more authentic. Elizabeth:      (Laughs) So Mother Earth… Andrew:         So Mother Earth. Here’s the thing. I’m a pretty well-balanced guy, I think. But when I’m with a very feminine woman, I feel safe. Like I feel safe. Like if I’m in her arms, I feel “Wow, I’m safe.” Now she couldn’t protect me to save herself. Elizabeth:      That’s true. Andrew:         But there’s that feeling of ‘safe’, like there’s something calming. Elizabeth:      That’s beautiful. Andrew:         And I sat with someone recently, and they said “But don’t you get it Andrew, you make me feel safe too.” I get it – the yin and the yang, the whole, so… Elizabeth:      That’s beautiful. That’s what you’re after. Andrew:         Anyway, that’s what I’m after. Elizabeth:      That’s beautiful. So that’s what you’re after. And ladies, we don’t mind if you’ve had a child. Andrew:         You can send in an application. (Laughs) Elizabeth:      So what we’re saying is, where do we find your work? We need a website to send these applications to. Where do we find you? Where do women find you, Andrew? Andrew:         Women can find me on such sites as … (Laughs) No. Andrew-Eggelton-dot-com. Elizabeth:      We’ll talk about your great work. Andrew:         Just to finish off that last piece, about the positives of living in that small community – it wasn’t a community. It’s that during the weekend or after school I had nothing to do, so my idea of entertainment was to go over to the school and write. Or draw. I used to draw. Now I can’t do anything more than stick figures. But my writing was something … Elizabeth:      Never say “can’t”. You can get back to that. Andrew:         Yes, I could, but I probably will never. Ah I love writing – that’s where the writing came from. Elizabeth:      And I totally agree, because I love writing too. In Year Six I wrote Tilly the Red Motorcar, and my father threw it away. Andrew:         Oh really. Elizabeth:      Not intentionally. He did a big clean-out and it’s gone – he threw it away. So how do you utilize the foundation of your wonderfully carefree childhood and vivid imagination within your work, and in particular, how does this translate to The Playroom? Andrew:         The essence of what I coach, if you boil it, simmer it down to one thing, is the Art of Play. So when you write, when you present, just your everyday life, one of the things that I really coach into my clients is a sense of playfulness. I’ve always like – my aunty and my family, people who know me, call me Peter Pan. Elizabeth:      Oh, that’s lovely. Andrew:         Now, that’s getting a bit condescending as they get older, but … Elizabeth:      They’re saying “Peter Pan, you need your Wendy.” Andrew:         Yes, yes. So what that foundation taught me was the Art of Play – I get curious, I get excited. And when I public speak or go on camera or present on TV, whatever I’m doing, I get into an excited space. This is playtime for me, and that’s what I coach into my clients. It’s exactly the same thing. Reframe this – it sounds very NLP – reframe it, and it gets to a point where they turn it up on camera, and they actually get excited and they say, “Okay, this is our playtime!” If it was a child, you’d be playing with dolls or fire trucks or whatever kids play with these days. Elizabeth:      iPads. It’s very disappointing, and I was thinking about your child and how so many children would benefit from a childhood like yours. Andrew:         Absolutely. Elizabeth:      Just get outside in the dirt, run around. Andrew:         Yes. Fall out of trees. Good for you. Elizabeth:      Umm, I’m a nurse, I don’t know about that one. But if there’s a safety net under that, sure. (Laughs) Andrew:         Yes, but that’s what happened – it was a sense of playfulness. That was the foundation that was built in me from that growing up, that childhood, and that imagination. Elizabeth:      Fantastic. In your bio, you mention a life-challenging moment. Will you allow my listeners to know more about this, or will I be breaking privacy laws? Andrew:         Yeah sure, so I’ll make a long story short. So two years ago – it was September the 6th or the 9th, I slipped a disc in my neck: C6, C7. The way that works is that if the disc slips, the nerve that runs down through those discs is trapped. Now that can cause a super intense pain. If you haven’t experienced it – and not many people would have, thank God – I can only liken it to passing a kidney stone or giving birth. Obviously one of those I haven’t experienced. So that was like a shotgun blast going off – the incredible pain – and I was in Bali and couldn’t fly. Every doctor told me something different – I mean, I couldn’t even dress myself, couldn’t feed myself, couldn’t get out of bed, and this lasted for 2 months. And if I had been in Australia or New Zealand or a better place with a bit of a medical…uh…Indonesia. Elizabeth:      You should have called me Andrew; I could have come over. You could have used nursing care. Andrew:         The first thing they said when I got sent back to New Zealand was how was the depression, and I said it was super intense. And he goes “Yeah”, because after that, the physical pain…the physical pain 24/7 and I was self-medicating myself with whatever I could get my hands on to kill the pain. Elizabeth:      Not a good time of your life. Andrew:         I went into … my mind got lazy and dark and I went into incredible depression. And the life-changing moment was – I woke up one morning and I was like, “How the hell am I going to get through today? I don’t want to deal with another 12 or 14 hours of getting up to deal with people. Can I just take a pill and forget about this day?” Elizabeth:      So you were suicidal. Andrew:         I understood how people could commit suicide, yes. I’m not that kind of person myself, ‘cause I know that there’s an end. So I got up and went, “Right, enough. You’re going through this. What do you want out of it?” And I wrote down on a piece of paper – I started off with “What is your ideal day?” So I wrote down everything: what happens when I get up, who I’m with, what am I drinking, what does outside my window look like, how do I feel, what’s the look on my face – everything, right down to the minor details of the thread count on my sheets. Then after that, I had the realization, that the current Andrew wasn’t capable of having that perfect day, perfect life, because I wasn’t equipped for that. My behaviours, my beliefs, my character, the things I had to work on. So I started to write down all the things I had to become, the kind of man I needed to be… Elizabeth:      Be, do, have, Andrew. Be, do, have. Andrew:         Be, do, have. I call it ‘the man I need to be’. So I wrote that down, then I wrote down how many hours a week I wanted to work, how much I wanted to get paid, what I was going to be doing, and how I was going to serve others, and from that moment onwards, I had this whole new focus on life, and that got me into my life coaching. And I use exactly that – I call it Life by Design, and obviously I flesh it out a lot more, and the actual process is called The Design Practice, born from that moment of desperation. Elizabeth:      Isn’t that amazing how you turned that around? Congratulations, because many people can’t do that. Andrew:         They don’t know – I don’t think they know how to do that. Elizabeth:      You know what you don’t know how to do? Accept a compliment, because I’ve just offered you a compliment. Andrew:         No, you’re right. I’m not very good at accepting compliments. You’re right, but thank you – thank you. Elizabeth:      My pleasure, because that’s really pivotal. Congratulations. You write for Spiritual Biz Magazine and I’ve read a number of your great articles, including a very special piece on love, and also one about the Art of Play. When did you know you wanted to be a writer? Andrew:         There’s probably never a point when I didn’t want to be a writer. Yeah, so, like I said earlier my dad encouraged me to write when I was a child. Because there were only 8 kids at the school, where one of the things where - I don’t know if we had subjects at all – we would spend an hour or two hours writing creative stories. And then I would come back and kids would have two paragraphs or half a page, and I would come back with 20 pages, and hold fort for as long as I could. Elizabeth:      So clearly a gift. Andrew:         It’s definitely a gift, yes. So thank you. See that? Did you see that? Elizabeth:      Oh, I’m impressed. (Laughs) You are a fast learner. Well done. Andrew:         I am a fast learner. Writing is a real joy and I think there’s a versatility to my writing – I can write silly and fun, and I can also go very deep. Elizabeth:      So when you’re writing, what keeps you going, and whatever works for you could work for other people, so what would you advise other people to keep them going with their writing? Andrew:         Write, because you want to, not because you have to – for a start. I mean writing, if you’re an artist or just a creative person, writing is something – we talked about this in the car when you came to pick me up – it’s something that for me and I think other artists, we have control over it. I can pick up my laptop or pen and paper any time I want. So the trouble with – the challenge with – being a creator or artist, is especially when we explain it with being a presenter or an actor, is the gatekeeper. The audition is a process; I get the job or I don’t get the job. There’s ten No’s to one Yes – and that’s good odds. So if you’re a creative person, you just can’t wait to get to that playtime. For me, that playtime I am on set and I am playing. But when I’m writing, it’s like I feel like writing right now and I’m gonna write right now. So I get this creative outlet straightaway, and it’s that sense of playing; even when you’re going deep, it’s that sense of playing. Elizabeth:      That’s wonderful. Who or what is your major source of support when you are writing? You’ve got some cranberry juice, I see. For me, I’m definitely a coffee addict. So for you, what supports you through that? Is it friends, or is it other writers. You know writers have this wonderful community; we share – we don’t compete, I’ve found, from the community I’m in. Very generous people, and we understand that it can be very isolating to write. So if you’re feeling that way, reach out, because there’s always someone up at 2 a.m., writing something. Andrew:         Mmm, it’s true. It’s true. Do you know what, the people who support me are: one is my father, and I have a couple of friends: Jarrah, Campbell – he lives in Bali too – and they’re just like, I’ll talk to them about an article I’m writing, and they’ll “Yes, yes, go for it.” And you know the one I wrote on love when I was in Romania was one I didn’t want to print, because I actually wrote it myself and I thought – I could be judged quite heavily on this, writing about something that – (Elizabeth: It’s a beautiful piece) who am I to write on this subject, you know what I mean? Elizabeth:      I’m shaking my head, everybody. (Laughs) Andrew:         But I did it and it had a wonderful response and got shared hundreds of times. So, yeah, I’ve got some wonderful friends, and my other support is probably a glass of wine when I write. Elizabeth:      Red or white? Andrew:         Red. Always red. Elizabeth:      And there’s antioxidants in it, so I approve of that. Andrew:         Okay, so I’ve always wanted to write – for a long time I’ve wanted to write – a fairy tale, in a cabin, in Romania, overlooking the castle that inspired the legend of Dracula. Actually, the castle that inspired the novel Dracula. It’s a little town called Bran in Transylvania in Romania. Elizabeth:      Do you have a costume that you wear when you’re writing? Andrew:         No, there was no costume. Elizabeth:      No fangs? Andrew:         No, no, no. It was actually very exciting. I wrote about an imaginary character called Darren who’s a dog. And Darren left the corporate world… Elizabeth:      Right. Well, I wrote about a cat called Victoria, so here we are. Andrew:         Yes. Everybody had told Darren that dogs can’t write fairy tales. And so Darren went “Fxxk it!” And then he got on a plane and flew to Romania and travelled around Europe, ended up in Romania, and he’s been writing a fairy tale about a man… Elizabeth:      You need to put some money in Samuel Johnson’s Swear Jar. Andrew:         That’s one; that’s only one so far. So Darren said if you went ahead and jump on a plane anyway and fulfilled his dream of writing his fairy tale about Europe and ended up in Transylvania. And he’s writing a fairy tale about a man writing about a dog writing a fairy tale. So it’s multi-layered, very confusing. Elizabeth:      No, no, hang on a minute. A man …? Andrew:         Being me. Elizabeth:      Yeah, but let’s just go back a bit, so a bit slower. A man …? Andrew:         A man, writing about a dog who’s going on a journey to write a fairy tale. Elizabeth:      Everybody’s got that now, so go ahead. Andrew:         Yes. And he has not finished it – he is definitely chipping his way through it, which is nice, and it was a beautiful journey in Romania to be able to do that. But Darren got very sidetracked with many things in Europe, and that held him up a little bit. Elizabeth:      (Laughs) Was Darren auditioning for the mother of his pups, perhaps? Andrew:         I think Darren might have a few pups, though. (Laughs) Elizabeth:      In 20 years you might have a couple of knocks on your door, Andrew. Andrew:         Thai’s it. Elizabeth:      What are you working on at the moment? Andrew:         So the number one priority at the moment is I’ve got workshops coming up in New Zealand and Australia in February, March, and my number one priority is putting together how that will look. So my workshop’s called The Art of Play, and it’s for live speakers, presenters, corporates, entrepreneurs. So that’s a priority. Elizabeth:      Can we learn about that? What is the workshop about? Andrew:         I bring – if I can say so myself, which is very un-humble for a Kiwi… Elizabeth:      Just be loud and proud. Andrew:         Okay. I bring a very unique, world-class way of coaching and presenting, so a performance, and I literally have a gift, an intuitive ability to tailor my coaching to an individual. So even if I’ve got 20 different people in class, I’ll have 20 different ways of coaching. Elizabeth:      That’s because you read people very well. Andrew:         I read people very well. And part of that is because presenting never came easy to me. It’s something I worked very hard at, and had to work through many, many of my blocks. Elizabeth:      See, that really surprised me. Andrew:         Really. Elizabeth:      Yes. ‘Cause you present so well. Andrew:         That’s good to know. Thank you, thank you. So Melbourne … Brisbane will be the first weekend of March, then Sydney the weekend after, then Melbourne the weekend after that. Elizabeth:      So you’re wanting your – so you’re the focus, and we have this theatre setup, and you bring the participants down for their turn. Is that how it works? Andrew:         Yes, yes, yes. You know my favourite space – I get into a zone which is super playful, and I love it. Like when I coach, that’s my happy place. And feeding off the energy of other people, and feeding off me, and then taking away people’s expectations of themselves; that’s the first thing I do. I have this funny thing when we first start. ‘Cause I really don’t care what level people are at – it makes no difference to me. I’m going to coach you; I’m going to give you a 1 or 10. So I kind of defuse that by saying, “Look, we’re here now, and you’ve all given me your money. So I don’t care if you’re good or not.” Elizabeth:      (Laughs) I love it. Andrew:         You know what I mean? I have your money. I’m happy. Elizabeth:      Ka-ching! Ka-ching! Andrew:         My job is to take your money first. Elizabeth:      Then it’s up to you. Over to you! Take One – is it Take One? Andrew:         Yep, yep, so … but what I get is, I don’t care when people get up. I’m like, if you need to read off your script, if you want me to prompt you, I don’t care if you can’t even say your name. Like some people can’t – some people can’t even get up and say their name, they’re so nervous. And I’m like, I don’t care – that’s where you start. That’s it. So on a scale of 1 to 10 I’m going to give you a point five or a one. And now my job’s to get you to a 5, to a 10. Elizabeth:      So what I’m now interested to know is, what is a 10? Andrew:         A 10 is someone who’s very confident and keeps me – a 10 really keeps me on my toes. When you’re a 10, meaning you’re a very, very good presenter, my job is now to dig in and bring more of that personality out. Elizabeth:      Who is a 10? So that people can know. Not a personally popular 10, but a mainstream 10.  There’s ‘Oprah 10’ … who’s a 10?      Andrew:         You know some of those presenters from Top Gear? You know they bring that X-Factor – you see their personalities. Because there’s the old American style of presenting, where it’s cameras on, and all of a sudden there’s this fake personality. Elizabeth:      And you can see that. Andrew:         You can see that. It’s like “bang, bang, bang”. And that’s not presenting. That’s cookie cutter. And that’s almost like Step One of what you do. What we want is bring the personality. Because when it comes down to it, if you’re auditioning or you’re doing a presentation, what people are engaged by is your personality, your X-Factor. Elizabeth:      Oh. Really interesting. Okay. Andrew:         The reason for Darren and the Corporate Dog – I have this wonderful vision that I’m very excited about is doing a one-man stage show, and it’s just a storytelling. I stand at an altar with a big old dusty book which I will create myself, and I tell my fairytale, which is 45 minutes long. The purpose of it is to bring adults down to a sense of being children again. So it’s to let go of being adults – no bills, no mortgages, no responsibility. And for 45 minutes, just entertain using obviously audio and animation behind to drive the story, just old-fashioned storytelling. And that excites me – that’s my passion project. Elizabeth:      That would be captivating. Andrew:         Yeah. And again, you could have beautiful cute little venues. First 5,10,15 minutes would be spent talking about getting people to use their imagination again. ‘Remember what you were like when you were 5 years old’, and setting that scene, and getting adults to remember what it was like to play again and be silly and have no responsibilities. And then go, “Right. Now my audience is ready. Let’s go.” Elizabeth:      You know, you know lots of famous people. So tell me about that. Is being famous an impediment, ‘cause you know, so many people want to be famous, but when you get down to it, do you want to be famous? Andrew:         Okay, so there’s a difference. There’s people, and this is – I was speaking to my actress friend here – I won’t mention her name – on Saturday. And she said, the biggest difference is now compared to when she first started acting, was people want to be celebrity before they become actor, so an artist. Elizabeth:      So, could we have an example of that? Kardashians? Andrew:         Kardashians is a good one. Reality TV is a shocker for that. I’ve had two periods of my life where I was – I use this word very loosely, but I guess people knew who I was. Elizabeth:      Oh I’m so sorry I didn’t realize. (Laughs) Andrew:         (Laughs) That’s alright. We’re in different countries. Elizabeth:      And who were you, Andrew? Andrew:         Well, that’s it. It wasn’t – I wasn’t … Elizabeth:      Are you important, and I didn’t know? Andrew:         Yes. (Laughs) Elizabeth:      We need to define ‘important’, don’t we? You see, I think important people are people like paramedics and surgeons who save people’s lives, you know? Andrew:         Absolutely. Elizabeth:      But then I’m different. Andrew:         But if you’re an artist – I rate writer and artist as the same thing because you’re reflecting life. Elizabeth:      I’m being light. Andrew:         Yes, yes, yes. But ‘celebrity’ – what’s a celebrity? You need to be someone who’s celebrated. Pure reality TV show person or something, it’s like “That’s your job. You got lucky, you’re in a TV show, you’re pretty much a nobody, you’re not really good at anything, but the camera’s following you. And that’s why people know you.” Elizabeth:      It’s false elevation. Andrew:         I remember it was in 2001, and I was kind of hitting my stride. I was working with Ryan Gosling on Hercules. I won Cleo ‘Bachelor of the Year’ in New Zealand. I shot documentaries and a TV series called Shortland Street which is like our Neighbours. Do you know what, and I started to get all this work, but just doing stupid stuff that I wasn’t actually needed to be skilled at. I’m turning into the kind of person that I ridicule myself that you see on TV or magazines. Elizabeth:      Is it like that song Popular by Darren Hayes? Do you know that song? Andrew:         No. Do you want to know what I did? Elizabeth:      Yes. Andrew:         I moved to an island called Waiiti Island off the coast of Auckland. It’s about an hour on a ferry. I got a little house, I grew a beard, I got an amazing vegetable garden. Elizabeth:      Does this mean you grew your own vegetables? Andrew:         I grew my own vegetables. I lived there for two years, and I did nothing but write and try to identify what I wanted to do as an artist. And there was one day I was standing outside and I was speaking to a man who was my neighbor, over some shrubs, and I realized I was talking to this stranger – naked. I was naked. It was hot, you know, and I just stopped wearing clothes. Elizabeth:      Totally? Totally naked? Andrew:         Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was on an island. Elizabeth:      Did he notice? You had a fig leaf …? Andrew:         No. (Elizabeth: No fig leaf?) That was the thing. I was so used to letting it all go. And it just dawned on me: “Andrew, you’re only 28. There’s time to get off the island. There’s time to go, buddy.” I got off the island pretty quick. I moved into this new house with these two girls, and for about a month they were like … Elizabeth:      Had you not dressed for this too? It was colder there. Andrew:         I was dressed, but I was always going outside to pee on the lawn. And they were like, “Andrew, can you use the toilet?” So I told myself I’ve got to get out of this habit; it’s okay. I’m just adjusting to normal life again. Elizabeth:      And what’s normal? Andrew:         Yeah, what’s normal? Elizabeth:      What really grabs me about that story is that you were aware enough to know that you needed to change. Andrew:         Yes. Elizabeth:      And not everybody is that aware. And why are you that aware? Is it because of your dad? Is it because of your upbringing? You can sense bullshit basically. Andrew:         I can.  Elizabeth:      You have got this really sensitive BS detector. Andrew:         You know I’ve only just … I was talking to my little brother about this a few weeks ago, I’ve only just realized what a quality and an asset is, and that I am highly sensitive. Even a year ago, I didn’t realize it was such an asset … Elizabeth:      It is. Andrew:         As to what I do now, and I’m really starting to embrace it. Elizabeth:      That’s fantastic. The civilized word for that, everybody, is ‘discernment’. Andrew:         Discernment. Elizabeth:      Yes, discernment. And also civilized people using the toilet rather than the lawn, Andrew. Andrew:         Yes. Well, I’ve got that under control now. Elizabeth:      Oh, that’s nice to know. (Laughs) Andrew:         Look, the entertainment industry, if you’re talking about that specifically, it’s just so much bullshit involved. And we talked about my earlier experience, but I had another experience in 2008, 9, 10, when I was really on a roll acting, presenting and public speaking. And again I went away, this time to Bali. Elizabeth:      Which is where you live now, isn’t it. Andrew:         I live half-and-half. Elizabeth:      Half and half New Zealand. Andrew:         Was New Zealand and Bali, and now it’s going to be Australia. Yes, I’m after a bigger market, which is here. Elizabeth:      ‘Cause this is important for the woman who’s coming on the scene. So we’re looking at Victoria, or we’re looking at Sydney? Andrew:         Melbourne. Elizabeth:      Melbourne. Oh, okay. Andrew:         The thing I like about the entertainment industry … Elizabeth:      We do have good weather, you know. Andrew:         In Melbourne? You’re the first person that’s said that. Elizabeth:      I’m Melbourne through and through. Andrew:         That’s beautiful. Makes me feel like home. Melbourne I feel like I’m home – I don’t know why. My dad grew up here. Elizabeth:      Did he really? Whereabouts? Andrew:         He actually told me yesterday and I can’t remember. About an hour out. Elizabeth:      Out where – north, south, east, west? Andrew:         Out towards the … Dande  … Dande … Elizabeth:      Dandenong? Andrew:         The Dandenongs. Mountains. Elizabeth:      Oh, I lived there once. Stunning place. Andrew:         Mm, yes. Elizabeth:      Okay. So – the entertainment industry is full of people with lack of discernment. They believe their own B.S. Is that it? Andrew:         Umm, yeah, yeah. At the end of the day you’ve got to just go: “This is TV – this is just a job. I’m an artist, and if I get work I’m lucky.” Elizabeth:      Why do they believe it? Is it that adulation that they get? Andrew:         It is the adulation and look, I can relate to that. The ego is an amazing driver. And in my twenties and thirties it was my ego getting me out of bed. It was like, “Right. You wanted that. You wanted people to know who I am.” It was the adulation. Elizabeth:      Why do you want people to know who you are? I’m sorry I didn’t know who you were, Andrew. (Laughs) Andrew:         Because it’s a feeling – it’s self-esteem, isn’t it. A sense of self-love. It’s like if people adore you, it helps boost that sense of self-worth. Elizabeth:      I find that false. Andrew:         Of course it’s false. Elizabeth:      Having been a school nurse and really looking at children – you mentioned you were five – and nurturing their self-esteem, and how important it is. That doesn’t come from outside. That comes from inside. Andrew:         Always inside out. Elizabeth:      But we’re not taught that. Andrew:         No, we’re not. So what we’re taught - in a way that makes no sense to me – we’re taught that your career, what other people think of you, what you own, where you live – that defines who you are. But if you look at it from a deeper perspective, your outside world actually affects your inside, and you’re in control of that, and no one teaches you that at school. Elizabeth:      That’s why everybody needs coaches. Andrew:         Your sense of self-love, self-awareness, your sense of freedom, all your values start from inside out. When you’ve got that glowing and growing inside you, your outside world reflects that. Elizabeth:      You’ve got so many important messages to bring to the world, Andrew. It’s a very exciting time for you. Andrew:         It is, it is. Elizabeth:      That’s fantastic. That’s great. Andrew:         Thank you. Elizabeth:      What is one of the most inspirational achievements one of your clients have made after working with you? Andrew:         Before I even became a coach, I used to be able to get a lot of people to quit their jobs. Like I’m just very passionate, and when someone would talk to me about their job, I’d go – ‘cause it’s very usual in the Western world for people to go “Hey, what do you do?” And I never ask that ‘cause I really don’t care. It means nothing to me. Elizabeth:      Yeah, I know. What question do you ask? Andrew:         If I was going to ask, it would be “If you could do anything, what would you do?” Elizabeth:      Okay. And would you be impressed if they say “I’m actually doing it”? Andrew:         Yes, yeah. Like I’ve got a lot of people to quit their jobs and start following their passion. For me, I’m dealing with clients, it’s managing them through their zone of fear, resistance and self-sabotage which we all go through, and understanding that process of … When I did this whole coaching thing, I was like “I don’t want to deal with people’s problems.” Because I don’t want to sit and Skype and go to workshops and deal with people’s problems all day. So unless the first person, that’s the first thing they want to talk about - “This is what I don’t want”, I’m not interested. “What do you want?” Elizabeth:      Exactly. Andrew:         When I know what you want, we can create that – we can work towards that and shape you. And that’s exciting. And of course when you go there, you’ve got to create that vision of where you want to go that’s so bold, exciting and fun, that your mind is tricked to go, “Oh, do you know what? This looks like fun. Let’s go there. That’s nothing – this is safe.” Because your mind isn’t built for success. It doesn’t know what the hell success is. Success to your mind is being alive for your mind, right? The fact that we’re sitting here talking, your brain is giving yourself a high-five, saying “Yep! You’re still alive!” Elizabeth:      (Laughs) That’s because I’m a human. Andrew:         Yes. Elizabeth:      Cleo – what did you say? – Cleo Bachelor of the Year? What year was that? Andrew:         2001. (Laughs) Fifteen years ago. Elizabeth:      Wow. There’ll be a lot of jealousy on the other side of this podcast, I can tell you that. Andrew, one of my favourite books is Illusions by Richard Bach. What is one of your favourites? Andrew:         Just off the top of my head, there’s many, many books – one is Badjelly the Witch (by Spike Milligan), for the reason that it makes me laugh. It’s just a child who is silly. It means nothing. There’s not even a message behind the story. It’s just someone’s random creative strain of thought. I just think it’s hilarious. Elizabeth:      I love to laugh. Very important thing to do. Andrew:         It’s the audio – and you know what it reminds me of? Why I love it so much is it reminds me of when I was a little kid – when I was five, six, seven - and my dad would come into my room in Otaio, and tuning in the radio. Because at that time we only had like one or two channels, Channel One and Channel Two in New Zealand. (Elizabeth: Oh, you’re spoiled!) And TV didn’t start till like eight in the morning or seven in the morning, so there was nothing else to watch except Freddo Rock and The Muppets. And then dear dad would come in and tune in the radio, and it was Saturday or Sunday morning storytelling time, and I would lie in bed and listen to that. That’s one of my favourite memories of my childhood. Elizabeth:      That’s a lovely memory to have. What is Darren the Corporate Dog doing for Christmas? And I notice you haven’t invited him to your family celebration. Isn’t that a bit mean? Andrew:         Mm. Elizabeth:      Do you think Darren has a plan to combat your exclusion tactics? Andrew:         Look, at the end of the day, Darren and I do have a very wonderful relationship and he’s everything that – he’s kind of like no responsibility – he’s Andrew with no responsibility. Elizabeth:      Well, he’ll love Christmas then, and all the gift wrapping. Andrew:         Yes, and he’ll be there. He’ll be there at Christmas for sure. Do you know what’s wonderful about Darren is that, he just doesn’t think that people will speak ill of him, or they would say no. So he’s got that blind sense of faith. Elizabeth:      Innocence, isn’t it? That’s innocence. Childlike innocence. Andrew:         When I did tell him that – he said can I come for Christmas and I said “not an effing chance” – he wouldn’t have taken it as no. He would have thought “Haha, he’s joking. See you there.” So he will be there at Christmas time. Elizabeth:      Oh, okay, I’m pleased to hear that. Victoria will be with us too. Victoria the Cat, who’s in my book Chantelle’s Wish. Andrew:         Actually I’m sure Darren will get along. Elizabeth:      With Victoria the Cat? Andrew:         Yes. Elizabeth:      Oh, Victoria the Cat’s a good one. Andrew:         But I’ve got a bit of a treat for Darren. I don’t know if you saw, but when I was in Spain I got a bit drunk and slept on the couch, and he drew all over my face. I don’t know if you remember that. Elizabeth:      No, I didn’t see that. You never sent me … Andrew:         He wrote ‘I Love Darren’ on my face and forehead, and gave me a dog’s tongue and whiskers. Elizabeth:      You’ll have to send me the picture. Andrew:         And I’m going to shave his fur off. Elizabeth:      Oh! Is he going to be awake or drunk? Andrew:         I’m going to wait till he’s drunk. He’s always drunk. It’s his favourite pastime. Elizabeth:      So send me the picture. I missed it. Andrew:         I’ll do that. Elizabeth:      Thank you. So Andrew, this is a signature question I ask all my guests: What do you wish for, for the world, and most importantly for yourself? Andrew:         For the world, I just wish that all of us would use our God-given talents, our unique gifts, to be of service to the world, and I feel like if we were all doing that, the world would organically go in the right positive direction. And that would also mean a lack of corporate greed, the raping and pillaging of the earth … I know that we are not here to work in the system that we’re currently working in. The human wasn’t designed for that. And we have far greater possibility than what we’re showing at the moment. What I’d love for the world is for the next generation and the next generation to start to push the boundaries, and to do what we were actually designed to do, which is evolve. And not evolve in a way that’s three percent growth in a year in the corporate world. Elizabeth:      That would be so not the GDP. We’re talking about – there are a lot of children around, and when you have your child, you will learn this: they are highly evolved. Andrew:         Yeah, yeah. I can feel it. A lot of my clients for my market in my life coaching side of things, are Y Generation, and when I did my research, nearly every single one – I said “What do you want? What’s the ultimate thing you want to do?” – they said, “I want to make a positive impact on the world.” Elizabeth:      Wow. Andrew:         And you don’t get that – if I can f**king be as bold – with baby boomers. And even from my generation … Elizabeth:      It’s your show. You can say whatever you want, even swear. Andrew:         From my generation, a little bit more. But from the next generation, even more. And I think, must be very hard for them to – I can understand where the system came from. And how my parents were so – I’m not for – but this was what you do. After World War One and Two you know, this is how everyone’s going to work. But they’re wising up. Elizabeth:      People are waking up. Andrew:         They’re waking up – that’s a better word. We’re waking up; we’re evolving. We’re spiritual beings. What if at school, you were taught that via the mind, we can actually have and do whatever we want, you know. And I’ll just go in another direction, but you know, teenage suicide is off the charts – and why is that? They’re actually becoming highly sensitive beings, but they haven’t been taught what that means or how the mind works. Elizabeth:      See, I see you as an incredible mentor for young men – a powerful mentor for young men. Andrew:         It’s funny you say that, because a lot of people keep telling me to work with young men. But I love working with young women as well. (Laughs) I love working with women in general, because I have a nice relationship with women. But I like to work with young women and young men. Elizabeth:      Well I think … Andrew:         But I know exactly what you’re saying. That makes sense. In fact, the first time ever you saying that to me then just made more sense. Elizabeth:      Thank you. I’ll take that as a compliment. Andrew:         There you go. That’s 4 to 1 so far. Elizabeth:      Andrew Eggelton, thank you so much for joining me on Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. Thanks for tuning in everyone, and may your wishes come true. Andrew:         Thank you for having me. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

In this episode we'll revisit Joanie's amazing weight loss journey and of course, we'll finally explain the title of this episode, Fat Loss and Face Melting. Here at the Inform Fitness Podcast we have the great privilege of announcing a major development for Joanie's group, No Small Children. News that was received just a short time after the recording of this podcast. News that after hearing this episode you'll want to grab your friends and family and head to the movies.  To find an Inform Fitness location nearest you visit www.InformFitness.com If you'd like to ask Adam, Mike or Sheila a question or have a comment regarding the Power of 10. Send us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com.  Join Inform Nation and call the show with a comment or question.  The number is 888-983-5020, Ext. 3.  To purchase Adam's book, Power of 10: The Once-a-Week Slow Motion Fitness Revolution click this link to visit Amazon:  https://www.amazon.com/Power-Once-Week-Revolution-Harperresource/dp/006000889X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1485469022&sr=1-1&keywords=the+power+of+10+book If you would like to produce a podcast of your own just like The Inform Fitness Podcast, please email Tim Edwards at tim@InBoundPodcasting.com The transcription to this episode is below: 13 Fat Loss and Face Melting Part 02 - Transcript Intro: You're listening to the InForm Fitness podcast, 20 minutes with New York Times, best-selling author, Adam Zickerman and friends. Brought to you by InForm Fitness, life-changing personal training with several locations across the US. Reboot your metabolism and experience the revolutionary Power of 10, the high intensity, slow motion, strength training system that's so effective, you'd get a week's worth of exercise in just one 20-minute session, which by no coincidence is about the length of this podcast. So, get ready InForm Nation, your 20 minutes of high-intensity strength training information begins in 3, 2, 1. Tim: InForm Nation, thanks again for joining us here once again at the InForm Fitness podcast, 20 minutes with Adam Zickerman and friends. This is part two of Fat Loss and Face Melting. A little confused by the title? Hang on. We'll get to that in just a second. But before that, if you didn't have a chance to listen to part one, we recommend you go back and give it a listen first before venturing on into this episode. Of course again today we have the regular cast of characters, Mike Rogers, Sheila Melody, myself, Tim Edwards and the founder of InForm Fitness, Adam Zickerman. But our special guest joining us once again is Joanie Pimentel of the LA based all-female trio, No Small Children. Rocking chicks by night, school teachers by day. The main reason Joanie's joining us again is because she has lost over 118 pounds over the past two years in large part through her participation in the Power of 10. In this episode we'll revisit Joanie's amazing weight loss journey and of course we'll finally explain the title of this episode, Fat Loss and Face Melting. Oh, and one more thing, I have the great privilege of announcing a major development for Joanie's group, No Small Children. News that was received just a short time after the recording of this podcast. News that I know that after hearing this episode you'll want to grab your friends and family and head to the movies here in the summer of 2016. That's enough hints for right now. What do you say we rejoin the conversation with Adam, Mike, Sheila, myself and Joanie Pimentel? Here's part two of Fat Loss and Face Melting. You know, Joanie, one of our last few episodes was about fat loss. And it really ties into what we're doing today too because we're going to talk a little bit about your career as a musician, your career as a teacher and weight loss too but looking at your website nosmallchildren.com and I was trying to do a little research and learning a little bit about you before we had you in the program I love the very first line in the about section. It says, "Three teachers walk into a bar, onto the stage, plug their instruments in and then ... they melt your face." And [laughter] after watching all of you play through some of your videos you definitely perform some face melt-ers there. So, I love the way that all tied in perfectly. 1 13 Fat Loss and Face Melting Part 02 - Transcript Joanie: Adam: Joanie: Adam: Mike: Adam: Tim: Adam: Tim: Joanie: Adam: Tim: Joanie: Mike: Joanie: Mike: You know, I -- melting somebody's face is a common term used by punk rockers and metal guys. And, so, Tim you read on our website that we try to melt faces with our performance and that is true. But my face has literally been melted by doing this workout so I'm very grateful. Joanie, what do you consider your most face melting song? [laughs] You know, my most face melting song is the next one we're going to write, probably. I would say, it's the next one. Ah, as in like -- That's a great answer. [laughter] It's also a copout. [laughter] Alright. Okay, now we're going to challenge you from this point back -- It is a great answer but just give me one. Yeah. One you love to melt people's faces with. There's a lot of them. It's like being asked to pick your favorite kid. Well, you know, it's not going to be one of your ballads, right? So, come on. Narrow it down a little bit. One you love to do. Well, you know what, that's not necessarily true. That's not necessarily true. That's not necessarily true. I'm with her on that. Because, you know, most of my life I have been a soul singer. This is really the first project I've ever been involved in where I'm doing punky rock songs. To me the idea of melting your face is more about the intensity of your performance. And it has not so much to do with the tempo of the song but how you deliver it. And so there's been plenty times in my life when I'm singing soul music that I just pour everything I have into it in that moment. And that's for me what it means to melt someone's face, so -- It's an intensity thing, just like slow motion weight training. That's right. Just like our workout. I was thinking more like Motorhead type melt. Adam, honestly, I was thinking more about slow motion weight training which is very slow and very, very intense. Yes, it is. Yeah and it totally melts your face off. That's right. And your fat cells as well. I totally get what you're saying regarding how you can melt your face off being a very soulful singer. That's right. Well, and the proof to it is if you look up Joanie's version of “Hallelujah”. My gosh, my face was melted when I heard that. It was beautiful and really depicts your amazing range as an artist. Thank you so much. And actually that was recorded for my mother who has been -- I remember. Yes, who asked me one year in typical Italian mother way said, I don't want any presents this year. I just want you to record this song for me. I love it so much and will you please do it. I don't want any presents. So, I -- I wish my wife would say that. Yeah. [laughter] When I write her a poem or a song, she's like, is that it? That can't be it, is it? You can't just come in with just a poem. [laughs] No, but I've actually gotten a lot of positive feedback about that.     Tim: Joanie: It's gorgeous. It's one of my very favorite songs composed ever. I really love it but the song that comes to mind right off the top of my head is the very first track on our most recent album. It's called Big Steps. It's kind of synonymous with some of the changes that have happened for me over the past year which, you know, if you're going to do it, do it 100%. You know, I had to basically making and getting in control of my health a full time job. And, so, I went into it big. So, you know, if you get a chance to look up the lyrics of that song they're really powerful. And when I play that song I feel really powerful and Lisa sings vocals on that but, you know, I get to sing some backup vocals. I just feel really powerful when we play it. We actually, recently have been opening our set with that song. Joanie, were you concerned when you went on your weight loss mission that when you lost the weight that it would affect your voice? You know, that's a question I've received more than once. And that's kind of a misnomer. It doesn't actually happen with weight loss, any effect on the voice really. It used to be thought many years ago, it's kind of a throwback to a classical voice and I'm trained as a classical singer believe it or not but they used to believe that, you know, Opera singers had to be really hefty in order to project their sound effectively and that's actually not true. There's really no difference at all. If anything you could say it might help because in order to sing properly you have to use your diaphragmatic muscles in your belly and the better developed your diaphragmatic muscles are, the better it is for your voice. It was, like I said, it's kind of a throwback to a very old fashioned premise that has been pretty much disproven but -- so, the short answer is, no. I was not worried. [laughter] Well, that's a great concern. I'm sure there are a lot of singers that might be concerned about losing the weight that it would change their performance. So, I think it's a fantastic question. Thank you for answering that. Just to add to that, it's beneficial because the type of music that I do requires me to be very lively on stage and I am, have always been kind of lively on stage but now it's just a little easier to get around. You know, I can jump up and down and not worry that my clothing is going to split. [laughs] Or the stage is going to fall down. That's right. That's right Yeah. Hopefully -- thankfully that's never happened to me. Never had any stage collapses so. [laughter] Adam: Joanie:     Tim: And let's circle back, if you don't mind, back to the exercise and back to the Power of 10 and InForm Fitness because your story is a little bit different. Certainly your success is astounding. Joanie: Thank you. Tim: To have such amazing success and which I, seems to me, like a relatively short amount of time to lose that much weight but to do it in a nice, steady pace and a very healthy way to do it. But you worked out with Sheila at InForm Fitness for how long? Joanie: I believe we did about six months. Sheila, is that right, from beginning to end. Sheila: Yeah, I think it was at least that. Yeah. Tim: And you have a very interesting, busy schedule. You're a musician. You're on the road. So, it doesn't necessarily work out for you to workout at one facility because you're on the road. So, what's interesting, what one of the components that's interesting about your story is that you continue to practice this Power of 10 but not at an InForm Fitness facility. Joanie: That's correct. Yeah, so, Sheila and I had worked together for about six months and then at some point our schedules just despite our best effort just couldn't coordinate and it was primarily because of my schedule. Like you said, between travel and touring, things like that. So, at the very beginning when I attended the open house, I received the Power of 10, the book and read through it. I treat it like a bible honestly. And I've actually since loaned it to a number of other people saying, “Everything you need to know is in this book.” So, when Sheila and I could no longer meet together I was still really committed to the process and was so happy with the results I didn't want to give it up. So, I took the book, opened it up to the workouts, took a picture of each of the various workouts with my phone and then took my phone with me to the gym and did the exercises on my own using the pictures and you can choose how many times a week that you want to do the workout. And because I'm still in some active weight loss right now I choose to do it twice a week but in the beginning I was only doing it once a week. Now I do it twice a week.And I use an app on my phone where I can log in everything that I eat and all my exercise and it allows you to create your own exercises. Tim: What's the name of that app?     Joanie: I use MyFitnessPal. Tim: Mhm [affirmative]. Joanie: And the exercises you can enter them in and create your own. So, I actually created the exercises, Power of 10 workout 1, Power of 10 workout 2, workout 3, [inaudible 11:16] that so forth and so on so that when I log in all of my exercise, my physical activity, I just click a button and it updates it. So, I can always keep track of the last workout I did. So, when I go, you know, on Mondays and Thursdays I can see what I last did so I know which one to do next. And it has worked out really well. There's a couple people at the gym who have kind of watched me shrink over the last year and I know they're really curious and they really want to ask me because I am not doing the same thing that they're doing at all. You know, there'll be a person sitting next to me lifting really heavy, grunting and carrying on and you know they do fast and fast and in my mind I'm thinking slow, slow, slow. You know, go slow. And I actually one, one thousand, two and I count to ten and I do the same thing every time and I know they're very curious and I'm just waiting for the moment for somebody to ask me, “I'm just curious, what are you up to?” And then I'm going to evangelize Power of 10. There's no doubt about it. Tim: Hey, don't forget to stick around till the end of the podcast for a major announcement for Joanie and her bandmates in her group No Small Children. An announcement that will make you want to head to the movies here in the summer of 2016. Can't wait to share all of that with you. Right now I'm going to share with you a promo code that will save you 15% off your grocery bill. If you are here listening to this podcast, there is no doubt that you are dedicated to living a healthier lifestyle. It's not like this is a radio station and you're flipping around the dial looking for a good song. You're listening to this podcast to make some changes in your life and with your health just like our guest Joanie did to lose over 118 pounds. Let's start with your food. Thrivemarket.com is the place you'll find InForm Fitness friendly food, wholesome food at wholesale prices. It's just that simple. I have already done the research for you. Thanks to Adam's book I now know the right foods to eat, how much I should eat and I've lost several pounds of fat and replaced that weight with new muscle thanks to the Power of 10. I've researched the prices between the grocery store and Thrive Market along with the selection and the winner hands down is Thrive Market. You heard me talk about it over the last few episodes now it's time to check it out for yourself.     Visit www.thrivemarket.com to register for your 30-day free trial, place an order and if you're happy with the service and the products, join the community. At that point it's just an annual fee of $59.95 which you'll probably save in your first order. On top of that, email me directly at tim@inboundpodcast.com and I'll send you a promo code that will shave 15% off your first order. InForm Fitness and Thrive Market are on a mission to make healthy living easy and affordable for everyone. Speaking of healthy living, let's get back to the conversation with Joanie Pimentel who continues to fill us in on her mindset and strategies that helped her lose over 118 pounds. [“Can't Say No” plays] There's another taste of Joanie and the girls from No Small Children. If you need more than just a little taste check out their website nosmallchildren.com. There you can sample all of their music and even purchase all three of their albums. They also have several tour dates up there for you to check out. Some shows here in the Los Angeles area this summer and several dates back east throughout the month of August. So, if you're in the area stop on by, say hello to Joanie and tell her you heard her right here on the InForm Fitness podcast. Joanie, in order to lose over 118 pounds, you really had to make a serious commitment to this weight loss journey. What was the mindset you adopted to tackle this, what I'm sure must have felt like an impossible task? Even though the changes I've made have been small and incremental, I did have to change my mindset and that had to be -- that was the one dramatic thing where I basically decided I was going to make getting in control of my health a fulltime job. That was going to become my fulltime job and I had to be committed to it 100%. Now, that commitment may come in small little increments but my head really had to be in the right place for it. And then the other thing I wanted to mention, this is actually really important to me is that I have never been ashamed of being a fat person. Right. I felt beautiful before and I feel beautiful now. It honestly has absolutely nothing to do with the way that I looked although, I mean, I love the way that I look now but it was never about shame for me. I've never been ashamed of being a big person. It's 100% about I need to live a long time. That just wasn't going to happen if I stayed at that weight. I wrote that down earlier when you said you want to live a long time because it's something that I think about like all the time as well. Like I even, I always joke, I say, I plan on living to 140 years old and be spry and energetic and could do anything. Even though it sounds like a ridiculous joke it actually is something that's in my mind and speaking of music and rock 'n roll and you know, I recently saw, I saw Straight Outta Compton. Did you guys see that film? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's terrific. And the scene with Eazy-E when they tell him that he has AIDs and you know, it's right when he's about to get his band back together again and everything. And he has all these hopes and dreams and all of the sudden it kind of gets flushed, they're like, your T-cell count is like 14 and I was -- like, I watched that and I just thought to myself and I looked at my wife and I said, man, you got to stay healthy, man. You got to [inaudible 16:55] your dreams to do everything. It just made me think do whatever it takes to be healthy. I don't know, like you just brought it back to me that whole idea and it becomes visceral for my own personal life and, you know, I don't want to evangelize, I mean, we all have to figure out what we all want for ourselves but it's to hear you say that though, I think, we all want to be healthy so we can see our children and -- Adam what was your mantra again? Exercise you need so you can live the life you want. Exactly. Exactly. And Joanie, are you -- you are living the life you want. You're a teacher. You're influencing young lives and you're rocking all around the country. How has this change in your lifestyle and in your body, this has been only what, about two years or so, a year and a half, so you can notice the difference now. How you feel, how you look, is there a confidence thing? Tell me the difference between before Power of 10 and now. I would preface this by saying even at my biggest I was not ashamed of being heavy. I felt beautiful then and I feel beautiful now. There are some practical things though that come with losing that much weight that have improved the quality of my life. I can fit airplane seats way easier now and I love to travel and I have to travel quite a bit. So, that's been a really big change. Buying clothes is a little more fun because there's more fun things for people my size. Those are more superficial things but in all honesty, the world is designed for people who are not as big as I was. So, I feel like I fit into the world around me a little better. I would also say that I feel very strong. That I don't worry about something getting hurt if I pick it up a certain way. And as I get older, I will admit that is something that's important to me. I want to protect my body and having lean muscle mass is really the best way for me to do that. And I said this before, I want to live a long time but I also want the quality of that life to be as good as possible and I know that having a fit and strong body for me anyway is the best way for me to achieve that. I've recently actually come across a number of studies that are making really kind of remarkable connections between the health benefits -- between exercising and reduced risk of some serious diseases, in particular cancer. I was just -- I think, Sheila, I shared those with you and how important it is not only for your heart and for your body but also to reduce the health risks that threaten so many of us as we get to be older. When you talk about benefits to cancer, you know, we're seeing the actual proteins, these myokines that we talked about in another episode. I mean, we're seeing properties of these myokines that actually have cancer-fighting properties. So, we're actually starting to learn the actual mechanisms involved in how high-intensity exercise actually helps fight cancer among other things. It's fascinating. It is fascinating and something that drives me very much is evidence-based action. Like, if I'm going to pour myself into something, I have to really believe it and I can't really believe it unless there is evidence of its effectiveness and it's -- that's something that's followed me pretty much throughout my whole life. Not just about health and fitness but about anything. If I'm going to really buy into something, it has to be believable and I had mentioned that earlier, this system makes sense to me. It's believable. And as somebody who has a cancer history, that connection between exercise and reducing cancer risk just appeals to me a great deal. And just add that to the enormous list of reasons why it's good for you to do it. What was the thing that made -- what was the point where you actually believed it. Because most people from our experience when the first time they hear a 30- minute workout once a week, a lot of people I find to be -- thing is, people believing that oh my God, you can't -- obviously that doesn't work 20 minutes, 30 minutes, once a week or twice a week. When was it that you actually believed it? It was about three weeks after I started working with Sheila. And [laughs] in the interest of full disclosure, I met with Sheila because she's my friend and I felt like I -- you know, I didn't want to hurt her feelings and, you know, but honestly -- So, you didn't buy it at first when she told you.     Not at first. And, you know, she made a good sell but at first I didn't but after the first workout I was like, I was spent when I walked out of there. That's honestly -- that's a first thing. I was convinced it was going to be a workout because my legs were like jelly when I walked out of there that first time to go into my car and I think I texted you Sheila right after that and said, “Oh, my God.” [laughs] Yeah. It was -- I felt really like it was definitely strenuous and then about three weeks later it kind of happened of the sudden where I became very aware that I was actually stronger, physically stronger. And I think I was picking up a piece of equipment, going into a show it was an amplifier. And Lisa plays through this triple rectifier which for non-musicians it is a very heavy piece of equipment and we don't have roadies right now, I'm hoping in the near future that will come but for now we move all of our own gear. I'll be a roadie. I'll be a roadie. Yeah. [Laughs] You got it. you got it. But at the time I was picking up this amplifier and moving it on stage and I know the amplifier didn't get any lighter. So, it had to have been me and that was kind of the moment where I realized that it was really working. And the next week when I came in to talk to Sheila I was very excited to share that with her and told her that it's working. It's working. And then that was really the first time in my life that I had stuck with an exercise routine that long. And secondly that it produced results that were very noticeable to me. In a relatively short period of time. I mean, that was three weeks. Yeah. You know, I don't even know, Sheila, do you have the 6, 12, 24 pack? Is that what you sell in LA? Yeah. That's what we do sell. Mhm [affirmative]. Yeah. That's what we're doing in New York, also. And Adam and I have talked about this a long time ago about like, why 6, why 12, why 24? And it seems like from our experience, you usually make that turn around somewhere in the first, around six weeks. Like where you're like, oh my God, I really am feeling stronger right now and it's only because of this once a week work out and it makes sense that you had a hard workout after your first workout but, you know, muscle takes a little bit of time to actually adapt.     And then you get acclimated to it pretty quickly, right. Like your body starts to go, okay. You get used to having that little feeling after your workout but you recover quicker. It doesn't take me down like it did in those first few workouts, you know. Yes. Yeah, and I think it was also I knew what to expect after that too. So, and you know, in the very beginning I had to actually experience it in order to believe it, so -- I know. I remember sitting there in the office with you and you were just like, I hate exercising. I just have to be honest with you, Sheila. I hate it. And I said, well, good. You're going to love this. And you're like, well, you seem very confident about that and I'm like, I am. [laughter] You did. It's also what's on the 48 hours, when we were on 48 hours Barbara Walters said that too. She goes, first thing she said was, I hate exercise. That's true. That's true. And you know what, the other thing that really appealed to me about it was that when you're sitting down at the equipment the main focus first is always to make sure that you're doing it safely. So, nothing -- you don't hurt yourself. But secondly, you know, all the time at gyms you see trainers working with their clients and they're like come on, you can do it, you know, one more, push it, der de der [aggressive]. You know, and it's loud and it's you know in their face and come on and this and that and Sheila's like, okay Joanie. Just give me one more. Good, that's [gentle] -- and it was -- but it was -- there was a certain amount of quiet focus that made it easier for me to concentrate on exactly what I was doing. Not just to muscle through something but to really focus on the exercise so that I could do it precisely and -- That's a great point. As somebody who is surrounded by noise and activity all day and all night, to have my focus become so much more precise, that really helped a lot. And I enjoyed the kind of quiet pace of it. That's important for performance [inaudible 26:20] we know and what's funny is just this past week or sorry maybe last Thursday but new client who said, who literally said, it's amazing how your voice is so calm and so peaceful and so wretched. [laughter] I was like, thank you. That's great. So, she's lost close to 120 pounds. She's a cancer survivor. She's a teacher by day and a musician by night and a member of the LA based band, No Small Children. Joanie Pimentel, you're an amazing woman. You really are. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yes. I appreciate that. So, now that everybody's had a chance to get to know you through the podcast, let's let our listeners get to know you through your music. So, if you tell us about the albums. How they can find your website and where about you'll be touring in the summer and fall of 2016. Absolutely. So, we actually have three albums. We have two full length albums and an EP. The first one is Dear You. That's our EP and then Trophy Wife is the second one and our most recent release was is called Hold Tight I'm Flying. All of our music is available online, iTunes, CD Baby, Bandcamp. But if you go to our website which is nosmallchildren.com, you can see links to all of our videos, all of our music. You can buy merchandise, all of those things and learn also about our performance dates, tour dates, things like that. And we're super active on social media. Please like us on Facebook. [laughter] We are also going to be on tour on the east coast and in the Midwest for the entire month of August or most of the month of August. So, like I said, if you go to our website, all those dates are up there so we will -- and we post regularly. So, if people want to come out and see us, we'd love to see them. We'll certainly put the links to your website and tour dates and everything else up on the show notes here. And so if you're listening in the Midwest or you're here in Los Angeles, go out, see Joanie and walk up and say, hey, I heard you on the podcast. And become a fan and give them a like on Facebook for sure as well. Joanie, thank you again for joining us. What a treat it's been to meet you via Skype. I can't wait to meet you in person. Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me. And there you have it. It's fat loss and face melting here on the InForm Fitness podcast. Now, as I mentioned at the top of the show, the ladies in No Small Children received some awesome news shortly after the recording of this episode. What's the first thing you think about when someone says, "Who you gonna call?"     Go ahead. Say it out loud, unless you're at the gym or walking the dog or something then you might get some weird looks but, who you gonna call? Ghostbusters. Well, Joanie and her cohorts in No Small Children have been asked by the folks at Sony Pictures to perform the classic Ray Parker Jr's song over the closing credits and bloopers in the July 2016 Sony Pictures remake of the 80's classic, Ghostbusters. Isn't that cool? So, head out to the theater. See Ghostbusters and stick around for the credits and listen to Joanie and the girls in No Small Children. Hey, by the way, we have a special bonus episode coming up next week. If you've listened to the podcast with any regularity you know that all the members of the podcast team here are spread out all over the country. Sheila is in Toluca Lake. I am also here in the Los Angeles area at a different location. And then we hear from Mike and Adam across the country in New York City. Well, Adam Zickerman visited the InForm Fitness Toluca Lake location near Burbank in June of 2016 and we filmed a ton of videos that will be released shortly and you can see those at informfitness.com. Well, during Adam's visit here in LA, Joanie stopped by InForm Fitness, not only to chat with Adam on film but Adam pulled out his guitar and Joanie lent us her voice and we captured it all on video. We'll have the audio for you InForm Nation right here on the podcast. So, make sure you come on back and give it a listen. You'll be glad you did. If you have a question or a comment for Adam, Mike or Sheila, we sure would love to hear from you. Shoot us an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to podcast@informfitness.com. Or you can even give us a call and leave a message at 888-983-5020, Ext. 3. That's 888-983-5020, Ext. 3. All feedback is welcome. And I'm going to ask you to do one more thing before we let you go, if you like the show and want to hear more of them, please subscribe to the podcast right here in iTunes or wherever you might be enjoying your podcast. Of course it's absolutely free to subscribe and we would love it if you left us a review. Thanks again for joining us InForm Nation. We sure do appreciate you listening right here on the InForm Fitness podcast. For Adam Zickerman, Mike Rogers and Sheila Melody, I'm Tim Edwards with the Inbound Podcasting Network. SHOW NOTES Joanie singing Hallelujah on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g48SdeITejE Two app links for Apple and android. The app mentioned was MyFitnessPal. 1. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/calorie-counter-diet-tracker/id341232718?mt=8 2. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.myfitnesspal.android&hl=en    

Panel AJ O’Neal (twitter github blog) Jamison Dance (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:02 - Panelist employment backgrounds 04:34 - Programming job market Networking 06:31 - How to get a job doing what you like BetterServers Skunkworks project 09:36 - Qualifications 11:40 - How you find jobs Being active in online and offline communities Mailing list advertisement Recruiters and job boards 15:51 - Resumes 19:27 - Interviews “I don’t know.” Pairing 24:50 - Company fit 095 RR People and Team Dynamics with Joe O’Brien Contract to hire work 30:47 - What makes somewhere a good place to work? Autonomy 40:32 - Freelancing The Ruby Freelancers Show Picks Psych Season 7 (AJ) The Fradio - MediaBox (AJ) Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate Mechanical Keyboard (Jamison) 48 Days to the Work You Love: Preparing for the New Normal by Dan Miller (Chuck) No More Mondays: Fire Yourself -- and Other Revolutionary Ways to Discover Your True Calling at Work by Dan Miller (Chuck) 48 Days Podcast (Chuck) From the Dust (AJ) Next Week Node.js 0.10 Release with Isaac Schlueter Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at  Bluebox.net.] [This episode is sponsored by Component One, makers of Wijmo. If you need stunning UI elements or awesome graphs and charts, then go to Wijmo.com and check them out.] CHUCK:  Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 51 of the JavaScript Jabber Show. This week on our panel, we have AJ O’Neal. AJ:  Yo! Yo! Yo! Chuck, did you realize that this is like our anniversary? CHUCK:  Our anniversary was in January actually. Though, we missed a handful of episodes. Otherwise, it would be. Yeah. AJ:  Yeah, whatever. I don’t know whether or not I'm alive. I don’t know when our anniversary is. I don’t know nothing. CHUCK:  [Laughs] We also have Jamison Dance. JAMISON:  Hey guys! CHUCK:  I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. And this week, we’re going to be talking about finding a job. I'm a little curious. AJ, you're freelance now, aren’t you? AJ:  Yeah, kind of. CHUCK:  Kind of. AJ:  Mostly, I'm just working on projects that I've been wanting to work on. I haven't actually sought out a lot of work. CHUCK:  Oh, okay. And Jamison is empris -- or employed. JAMISON:  [Laughs] Or happily employed. CHUCK:  I'm freelance as well, been a freelance for a few years now. So, and I know that Tim went freelance. I don’t know if that stuck or not. It sounded like it has, at least, until he decides he wants to be somewhere else. JAMISON:  Merrick and Joe are both employed though. CHUCK:  Yeah. They both work at Domo. JAMISON:  They're like half and half, I guess, now. CHUCK:  So, how many places have you guys worked at as programmers? AJ:  I just worked at BYU and SpotterRF. JAMISON:  I have worked at four places. But one of them, I did PHP and Drupal. I don’t know if I could count that as a programmer then. CHUCK:  [Laughs] You plucked out the bad memories. JAMISON:  Yeah. Well, it was great for the time. It was [inaudible]. CHUCK:  Yeah. I did IT at BYU. I didn’t ever actually work for them as a programmer. And then, I ran tech support at Mozy and I did programming there but it wasn’t part of my job description. My job description was to run the Tech Support Department. So, people would call in with problems with Mozy and we would help fix them. But we needed an Issue Management System, our ticketing system, whatever you want to call it. And we also needed some kind of knowledge base. And the company really didn’t want to spring for it. So, I wound up building it. AJ:  Cool! [Chuckles] CHUCK:  And that’s kind of how I made the transition into programming because after working on that for a while,

Panel AJ O’Neal (twitter github blog) Jamison Dance (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:02 - Panelist employment backgrounds 04:34 - Programming job market Networking 06:31 - How to get a job doing what you like BetterServers Skunkworks project 09:36 - Qualifications 11:40 - How you find jobs Being active in online and offline communities Mailing list advertisement Recruiters and job boards 15:51 - Resumes 19:27 - Interviews “I don’t know.” Pairing 24:50 - Company fit 095 RR People and Team Dynamics with Joe O’Brien Contract to hire work 30:47 - What makes somewhere a good place to work? Autonomy 40:32 - Freelancing The Ruby Freelancers Show Picks Psych Season 7 (AJ) The Fradio - MediaBox (AJ) Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate Mechanical Keyboard (Jamison) 48 Days to the Work You Love: Preparing for the New Normal by Dan Miller (Chuck) No More Mondays: Fire Yourself -- and Other Revolutionary Ways to Discover Your True Calling at Work by Dan Miller (Chuck) 48 Days Podcast (Chuck) From the Dust (AJ) Next Week Node.js 0.10 Release with Isaac Schlueter Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at  Bluebox.net.] [This episode is sponsored by Component One, makers of Wijmo. If you need stunning UI elements or awesome graphs and charts, then go to Wijmo.com and check them out.] CHUCK:  Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 51 of the JavaScript Jabber Show. This week on our panel, we have AJ O’Neal. AJ:  Yo! Yo! Yo! Chuck, did you realize that this is like our anniversary? CHUCK:  Our anniversary was in January actually. Though, we missed a handful of episodes. Otherwise, it would be. Yeah. AJ:  Yeah, whatever. I don’t know whether or not I'm alive. I don’t know when our anniversary is. I don’t know nothing. CHUCK:  [Laughs] We also have Jamison Dance. JAMISON:  Hey guys! CHUCK:  I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. And this week, we’re going to be talking about finding a job. I'm a little curious. AJ, you're freelance now, aren’t you? AJ:  Yeah, kind of. CHUCK:  Kind of. AJ:  Mostly, I'm just working on projects that I've been wanting to work on. I haven't actually sought out a lot of work. CHUCK:  Oh, okay. And Jamison is empris -- or employed. JAMISON:  [Laughs] Or happily employed. CHUCK:  I'm freelance as well, been a freelance for a few years now. So, and I know that Tim went freelance. I don’t know if that stuck or not. It sounded like it has, at least, until he decides he wants to be somewhere else. JAMISON:  Merrick and Joe are both employed though. CHUCK:  Yeah. They both work at Domo. JAMISON:  They're like half and half, I guess, now. CHUCK:  So, how many places have you guys worked at as programmers? AJ:  I just worked at BYU and SpotterRF. JAMISON:  I have worked at four places. But one of them, I did PHP and Drupal. I don’t know if I could count that as a programmer then. CHUCK:  [Laughs] You plucked out the bad memories. JAMISON:  Yeah. Well, it was great for the time. It was [inaudible]. CHUCK:  Yeah. I did IT at BYU. I didn’t ever actually work for them as a programmer. And then, I ran tech support at Mozy and I did programming there but it wasn’t part of my job description. My job description was to run the Tech Support Department. So, people would call in with problems with Mozy and we would help fix them. But we needed an Issue Management System, our ticketing system, whatever you want to call it. And we also needed some kind of knowledge base. And the company really didn’t want to spring for it. So, I wound up building it. AJ:  Cool! [Chuckles] CHUCK:  And that’s kind of how I made the transition into programming because after working on that for a while,

Panel AJ O’Neal (twitter github blog) Jamison Dance (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:02 - Panelist employment backgrounds 04:34 - Programming job market Networking 06:31 - How to get a job doing what you like BetterServers Skunkworks project 09:36 - Qualifications 11:40 - How you find jobs Being active in online and offline communities Mailing list advertisement Recruiters and job boards 15:51 - Resumes 19:27 - Interviews “I don’t know.” Pairing 24:50 - Company fit 095 RR People and Team Dynamics with Joe O’Brien Contract to hire work 30:47 - What makes somewhere a good place to work? Autonomy 40:32 - Freelancing The Ruby Freelancers Show Picks Psych Season 7 (AJ) The Fradio - MediaBox (AJ) Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate Mechanical Keyboard (Jamison) 48 Days to the Work You Love: Preparing for the New Normal by Dan Miller (Chuck) No More Mondays: Fire Yourself -- and Other Revolutionary Ways to Discover Your True Calling at Work by Dan Miller (Chuck) 48 Days Podcast (Chuck) From the Dust (AJ) Next Week Node.js 0.10 Release with Isaac Schlueter Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at  Bluebox.net.] [This episode is sponsored by Component One, makers of Wijmo. If you need stunning UI elements or awesome graphs and charts, then go to Wijmo.com and check them out.] CHUCK:  Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 51 of the JavaScript Jabber Show. This week on our panel, we have AJ O’Neal. AJ:  Yo! Yo! Yo! Chuck, did you realize that this is like our anniversary? CHUCK:  Our anniversary was in January actually. Though, we missed a handful of episodes. Otherwise, it would be. Yeah. AJ:  Yeah, whatever. I don’t know whether or not I'm alive. I don’t know when our anniversary is. I don’t know nothing. CHUCK:  [Laughs] We also have Jamison Dance. JAMISON:  Hey guys! CHUCK:  I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. And this week, we’re going to be talking about finding a job. I'm a little curious. AJ, you're freelance now, aren’t you? AJ:  Yeah, kind of. CHUCK:  Kind of. AJ:  Mostly, I'm just working on projects that I've been wanting to work on. I haven't actually sought out a lot of work. CHUCK:  Oh, okay. And Jamison is empris -- or employed. JAMISON:  [Laughs] Or happily employed. CHUCK:  I'm freelance as well, been a freelance for a few years now. So, and I know that Tim went freelance. I don’t know if that stuck or not. It sounded like it has, at least, until he decides he wants to be somewhere else. JAMISON:  Merrick and Joe are both employed though. CHUCK:  Yeah. They both work at Domo. JAMISON:  They're like half and half, I guess, now. CHUCK:  So, how many places have you guys worked at as programmers? AJ:  I just worked at BYU and SpotterRF. JAMISON:  I have worked at four places. But one of them, I did PHP and Drupal. I don’t know if I could count that as a programmer then. CHUCK:  [Laughs] You plucked out the bad memories. JAMISON:  Yeah. Well, it was great for the time. It was [inaudible]. CHUCK:  Yeah. I did IT at BYU. I didn’t ever actually work for them as a programmer. And then, I ran tech support at Mozy and I did programming there but it wasn’t part of my job description. My job description was to run the Tech Support Department. So, people would call in with problems with Mozy and we would help fix them. But we needed an Issue Management System, our ticketing system, whatever you want to call it. And we also needed some kind of knowledge base. And the company really didn’t want to spring for it. So, I wound up building it. AJ:  Cool! [Chuckles] CHUCK:  And that’s kind of how I made the transition into programming because after working on that for a while,

Episode 14 - YouTube Fireside Chat - Choreography for Guys   Today we're talking choreo for guys on the YouTube Fireside Chat. The key is that it has to be character-driven. We've chosen a couple of specific numbers to talk about. How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69WpCBLrdSQ Catch Me If You Can http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zayv01x1QLs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaLDyrun_Cc Grand Hotel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDc9ul70kyY Show Notes Virginia Theatre Association Subscribe to The Theatrefolk Podcast in iTunes by CLICKING HERE. Episode Transcript Lindsay: Welcome to TFP, The Theatrefolk Podcast. I am Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello. I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. Today, it's another YouTube Fireside Chat with the one, the only, Craig Mason. But first, let's do some Theatrefolk news. Theatrefolk is going to have an information table at the Virginia Theatre Association Festival this weekend, Friday, October 23rd and Saturday, October 24th in Reston, Virginia. Catalogues, free resource information, and we'll be handing out our play-tasting CD-ROM, which has sample pages from every one of our plays on it. That's right, every single one of our plays at your fingertips. How exciting! And what's even more exciting is that there's going to be a guest at the Tfolk table, playwright Bradley Walton, who hails from the area, is going to be at the booth on Saturday the 24th with samples from his plays, The Absolutely Insidious and Utterly Terrifying Truth About Cat Hair, and two new ones, The Baloney, the Pickle, the Zombies, and Other Things I Hide From My Mother, and Storied. Drop by, say hi. Lastly, where, oh where can you find this podcast? We post new episodes every Wednesday at Theatrefolk.com and our Facebook page and Twitter. You can find us also on the Stitcher app, and you can subscribe to TFP on iTunes. All you have to do is search on the word “Theatrefolk.” Welcome to our YouTube Fireside Chat, where Craig and I snuggle up to the microphone and talk about musical numbers that you can find on YouTube. And today—very excited about today—today we are looking at choreo for guys. From a school perspective, it's usually harder to get guys to dance, and our three videos today are really great examples of character dancing. It's not about ballet or the box step. It's about, really, all you have to do is move in character. Wouldn't you say so? Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And these are three really great examples of men dancing, and… Lindsay: And looking really manly. [Laughs] You know? Craig: [Laughs] And being masculine and being true to their characters. There's nothing worse than when you come to a dance number and all of a sudden everyone's running around moving like dancers rather than their characters. Lindsay: Well, I think we said this the last time we did this. There was Newsies, which is new on Broadway, and they showed that clip from the Tonys, and all of a sudden everyone looks like they had been to 12 years of dance training. Craig: Yeah, I mean, I find that stuff really… [Laughs] We're going to go off on a tangent here so early in podcast… Lindsay: Oh, my goodness. Craig: But I find that so bothersome. You're right. When everyone all of a sudden is like an amazing dancer—some characters can be slow. Some characters can be confused. Some characters can be more dominant. But in shows like that, when all of a sudden everyone is this amazing perfect dancer, it just doesn't work for me because it doesn't make any sense. Lindsay: Well, it takes me out of the world, and I think that's what some people think, is that, “Oh, everything has to be perfect.” And it's like, not really. It all has to be character-driven. Craig: Not if I'm in the audience. Lindsay: That's exactly right. And of course, you're in the audience for every show all the time. Craig: [Laughs] No,