Podcast appearances and mentions of Alan Hirsch

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Todd Wilson, co-founder of Exponential and a leader at Multipliers, where he helps churches and ministry leaders pursue multiplication and greater Kingdom impact. Todd has spent decades studying church planting, disciple-making, and movements, and his latest book, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward, explores the evolution of the American church growth movement and what it may mean for the future. Are churches working harder while reaching fewer people? Have our systems become better at producing activity than disciples? Todd challenges leaders to examine the operating system beneath modern church ministry and consider what needs to change if we want to see true reproduction and multiplication. We have a disciple-making problem. // For years, Todd has championed the goal of seeing more churches reproduce. Research once showed that fewer than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing, and while that number has improved, multiplication remains rare. But Todd believes church planting is ultimately an outcome of a deeper issue: most churches do not have a functional culture of disciple-making. If disciples aren’t reproducing disciples, churches will struggle to reproduce churches. Reproduction has to become generational. // Multiplication begins when reproduction continues beyond the first generation. One disciple makes another disciple, who then makes another, and the process keeps going. The same is true with churches. A church plants a church, which plants another church, which plants another. Once reproduction moves across multiple generations, addition becomes multiplication and the potential for movement begins to emerge. The church growth system has slowly changed. // Todd’s research traces roughly 75 years of church growth history, beginning with missionary Donald McGavran. McGavran originally studied why some churches on the mission field grew while others did not and developed principles aimed at helping missionaries reach more people. Over time, those ideas moved into the American church and blended with seeker-sensitive ministry, the megachurch movement, purpose-driven strategies, multisite, church planting networks, and other innovations. Much good came from these eras, but Todd believes the system gradually shifted toward institutional and programmatic growth. Good intentions can still create the wrong outcomes. // Todd is careful not to blame previous generations of church leaders. Many of the people who shaped modern church ministry were deeply evangelistic and sincerely wanted to reach people. Yet over time, the dominant definition of success increasingly became bigger attendance, larger programs, and expanding organizations. The unintended result is a consumer-driven model that can attract people effectively but struggles to produce disciples who reproduce. The angst leaders feel is real. // Todd hears a growing frustration among pastors: churches are spending more money, employing more staff, and working harder while seeing less fruit. Even churches that appear successful can sense something isn’t right beneath the surface. Todd believes much of that angst comes from trying to produce multiplication through an operating system designed primarily for addition. Naming the problem is an important first step toward changing it. Leaders must model what they want reproduced. // Todd believes transformation has to begin with senior leaders. If disciple-making is going to become the church’s growth engine, lead pastors and elders must personally participate in a simple, reproducible disciple-making process. Rather than merely preaching about discipleship, pastors should be able to name the people they are actively discipling and allow those relationships to shape the way they lead and teach. Keep the process simple and reproducible. // Whatever model a church chooses, Todd believes it must be simple enough for anyone to reproduce. The goal isn’t another sophisticated program but a way of following Jesus that can move naturally from person to person. The same approach should work for a lead pastor, a volunteer, or even a teenager. Simplicity increases the possibility of multiplication. Give the next generation permission to experiment. // Todd isn’t calling churches to abandon everything they’ve inherited. Instead, he encourages leaders to learn from the past, retain what is fruitful, and recognize that the current operating system may be losing effectiveness. Churches should create space for younger leaders to experiment, learn, and discover more reproducible approaches to disciple-making without being forced to preserve every assumption of previous generations. To learn more about Todd Wilson, visit multipliers.org. You can also download a free PDF or audio version of How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward at church-growth.org or pick up a paper copy on Amazon.com. In addition, check out Todd Wilson’s conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, and the interview A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have tuned in today for this reason, friends, lean in. um I want you to be a part of the conversation that we’re having today. The leader that we’ve got on the phone, on the I don’t know why say the phone because we have not been on phones for podcasts in, you know, 10 years, but on the line is really pressing on an issue that I know that a large portion, you know, almost 90 percent of the churches in the country need to be doing what we’re talking about today. And they’re not. And I really want you to lean in and learn from Todd Wilson. Rich Birch — If you do not know Todd Wilson, he has been the founding and co-founding member of a number of faith-based organizations, including Exponential and Multipliers. He has designed a number, and been a part of the launch of a multiple of national church planting networks. He’s currently a team member, or team leader at Multipliers and serves leaders and ministries who are pursuing multiplication, helping them develop vision and strategy ultimately for a 100 X impact. You know that I love that. Rich Birch — Recently, he wrote a book that caught my attention that I want to dive in on and kind of um unpack some of the core lessons for us today. It’s called, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. And it’s really looking at the whole conversation, American church growth movement. Todd, welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.Todd Wilson — Rich, it’s great to be here with you. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.Rich Birch — Yeah, me too. So why don’t we start with kind of giving us a picture of Multipliers and the work that you’re focused on now, kind of set the context for us.Todd Wilson — Sure. It’s probably good to have the context, you know, at at my core, my own personal calling. I am an entrepreneurial engineer at my core. I love to envision, envisage opportunities, seek strategies and opportunities of the future. And so where I like to do it anywhere, there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact. And that’s what gets me in trouble often is the, wherever there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact.Todd Wilson — When I came out of the marketplace over 25 years ago into full-time ministry, the most natural hundred X place for me, in addition to being in the local church was, was church planting. I was just drawn to church planting. I got to spend almost 20 years, ah you know, leading Exponential and co-founding there.Todd Wilson — And in recent years, really trying to get even more focused really on the 100x impact. I want to spend my next decade as I’m getting older here, you know, what’s it look like for every hour, for every dollar, for every bit of energy, to see 100x return.Todd Wilson — And so the idea of Multipliers, and it’s a small team of us that, you know, we have a definite bias within the kingdom space to the disciple-making as the mission and engine of the church. And what’s it look like to get back to Jesus style disciple making. But then church planting and multiplication, what does it look like to be doing things that that are even capable of reproduction that can lead to multiplication and ultimately movement. So our goal is to just help champion at the personal level through personal calling, at the church level through disciple making and cultures of disciple making that can ultimately produce movements.Todd Wilson — And so we are a champion and advocate for that.Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. You and I are are similarly wired. And over the years, you know I’ve heard people talk about, you know, and they always they’ll do like a series at a church on spiritual gifts. And I’ve often wondered because of the kinds of things I’ve been involved in, if, you know, if I have some sort of apostolic gift, just because of the stuff I found myself doing and, you know, launching campuses and all that.Rich Birch — And it’s interesting that gift over the years I’ve heard, which is similar to the kind of work you’ve been doing over the years is the only gift that I’ve ever noticed that preachers, they seem to talk down about it. And they’re like, stop starting things like, you know, they’re like, they always, you know, are like on the negative side of, you know, being the guy who wants to be entrepreneurial and see new things.Rich Birch — And that’s a part of what I admire about you and the good work you’ve done. When you were at Exponential over those, you know, with you that you co-founded, you know, that almost 20 years, you know, they had this, they saw some amazing things happen there under your leadership, where this idea of moving church reproduction from under 5%, really trying to push us towards 16%.Rich Birch — So for people that are unaware of this, I think this is good context to kind of take a step back and talk about why that number, why are we actually, why are you giving decades of your life towards this idea of trying to move towards 16%? What do we mean by that when you you know talk about that? Because I think that’s a good foundational idea for today’s conversation.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think it’s important it to understand, again, context for me. I didn’t grow up a Christian. I never had a dream to be in full-time vocational ministry. I’ve never wanted to be a lead pastor of anything. You know, ministry was the farthest thing from my mind growing up. When you’re asking kids, what do you want do when you grow up? Todd Wilson — So when God brought me into full-time vocational ministry, and I’m going to say kicking and screaming, I wanted to go start a company. I wanted to go make money. I wanted to go change the world. And so coming into full-time vocational ministry, why in the world would I want to see anything except movements happening? Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — We read about movements in the New Testament. Why do I want to be personally satisfied if God’s calling me into a new life of ministry with anything less than seeing movements?Todd Wilson — And so that was my context of stepping in and and leading at Exponential and what was driving us. And your question from 5% to 16%. Well, Houston, we have a problem.Todd Wilson — If movements are multiplication, and multiplication is generational reproduction, and we, at the time we were starting Exponential, there were less than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing. You just got to let that sink in.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — 95% of churches just 25 years ago, 95% of churches in the U.S. are not reproducing. It’s physically impossible, both mathematically and biblically, to see multiplication and ultimately movements if less than 5% of churches are reproducing.Todd Wilson — So the answer to where’s the 5 to 16, for me personally, God’s called me into a new life and a new ministry. I don’t want to be satisfied with just status quo, but the state of the U.S. church is such that we physically can’t see 100x impact in the operating system of how things are working. Todd Wilson — So the 5 to 16 was very simple. Let’s measure where we’re at. And so the 16% sociologists say that if you can get 16% of an audience acting a certain way, behaving a certain way, it will become normative for everyone else. I like to say, if you’re in a room and you start quacking like a duck to talk, if you can get 16% of the people in the audience quacking like a duck, then everybody’s going to communicate by quacking like a duck.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And so it just became a conviction. Let’s move the needle from less than 5% to 16%. And then the language we would use is, at 16%, healthy church reproduction would become such a normative thing that we would see multiplication happening.Todd Wilson — Now, the little bit of an elephant in the room before we move on, church planting is just the outcome. So that 5% number, it’s an outcome of the system and what’s happening.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The more ornery number is that the national studies that we did on what percentage of U.S. churches have a disciple-making culture. That’s also less than 5%.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So 95% of churches don’t have a functional mission of disciple-making, and that’s their normative growth engine through disciple-making. So in reality, we have a disciple-making problem, not a church-planting problem. And so those two became very tied together, as as will become evident as we have this interview.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. and And just can you define generational reproduction for folks that are listening in? When you when you when you say that, like, hey, we’re trying to move churches towards generational reproduction, kind of just unpack that a little bit more.Todd Wilson — Yeah, let’s let’s start at the personal level of disciple-making. If one person makes a disciple of another person, you’ve got one generation. If that person goes on to make another disciple two generations, that person makes a disciple three generations. We see that biblically. We see that in the leadership pipeline with Paul, that you know we need to see disciples who make disciples who make disciples.Todd Wilson — Once you get to the third or fourth generation of something reproducing itself, if you drew that on paper, one becomes two, two becomes four, four becomes eight, eight becomes 16. That is an exponential or a multiplication curve. So all you have to do to go from addition to multiplication is have healthy reproduction broad and wide multiple generations into the future.Todd Wilson — Now we just take that to the church level, a church that plants a church that plants a church that plants a church broad and wide.Todd Wilson — Now you’ve gone from one church to 16 churches. And now look at the collective attendance of those 16 churches. That’s what you call healthy growth. That’s what you call multiplication when you keep reproducing it over and over.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And there’s actually been progress against this. This is one of the things that I’ve loved as a person just sitting on the outside looking in as you and the team, you know, Dave and the broader Exponential community have really been hammering away at this. You know, we’re not at 16% yet, but we’re seeing progress, which is which is amazing.Todd Wilson — Right. It’s in the studies that we did, and it’s been repeated a couple of times, the needle has moved to at least 7%. That may not sound like a lot, but if you go take the number of churches we’re talking about…Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — …and that needle moving from less than 5% to 7%. And we’re not taking credit for all that at Exponential. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — We’re getting to ride a wave that really started around 2000. Prior to 2000, denominations planted churches, not really churches or networks. We saw the birth of networks around 2000 in the U.S. It’s hard for people to realize, but like in the church planting world, groups like City to City and GlocalNet and Acts 29 and ARC and Church Multiplication Network and Stadia and New Thing Network, none of them existed.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — Literally in a five-year time period, we saw the birth of all these church planting networks, and that happened to coincide with that we saw that need to start Exponential to serve those networks.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So We we were a little bit the right group at the right place, advocating for the right thing.Todd Wilson — And I do think that generally the the wonderful thing is that as that needle is starting to move and the visibility is getting more and more, the next generation wants it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, I would agree.Todd Wilson — They want the scorecard of that. So I feel very optimistic that we’re still a ways away from 16%, but the needle is moving in the right direction.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would echo that too. I think there is, um you know, one of the couple years ago, I had one of those ages in my life flip over with zero on the end that you kind of notice and you reflect back on life a little bit. And I would say one of the things I’ve noticed over, you know, almost 30 years of ministry is this issue is has become more normative. Like it’s it’s a part of the conversation. It’s not that everyone’s doing it, but it’s in the dialogue, which I think is is wonderful.Rich Birch — Well, I, so you know, there’s, you interact with a lot of church leaders across the country. You interact with a lot of people, you have a pulse on a lot of, you know, what’s going on. And there’s a growing sense, you have flagged that there’s a growing sense among leaders that there’s just something wrong. It’s like, you know, there’s like a stink in the bottom of our, our, garbage that’s like, oh it’s a little bit stinky. It’s not like overwhelming, but we can’t put our finger on exactly what that is. Rich Birch — They can’t necessarily name it, but we feel it. We kind of see that there’s maybe something in the way we’re doing what we’re doing that isn’t working. What are you hearing as you sit across the table from church leaders in across the country, you know, around all of these things that we’re talking about?Todd Wilson — Let me describe it a couple of different ways. I think the the word I would put on it is an angst. I think if you look at the definition of an angst, there’s a there’s a growing and an underlying angst. um I’m going to say, if I’m descriptive of the angst, that might not be the way people would exactly say it but it’s how I translate what I’m hearing.Todd Wilson — We are working a lot harder to reach less people and we don’t like the cultural Christian product we’re getting. We’re working a lot harder. We’re spending more money to reach fewer people. And we’re just having this angst that the product we’re producing is a little bit too much consumer cultural Christian as we’re working harder and spending more money. And that leaves somebody full time, know, if I mean, if you’re a full time vocational pastor, there’s an angst that sits in the middle of that dynamic going on. Todd Wilson — My mentor and friend, Robert Lewis, who led Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock for years, Robert’s handed off the leadership back in 2005. Robert describes it this way. He did the foreword on my recent book, and when he read and reviewed the book, he said, Todd, oh my goodness, this is first and foremost a walk down history lane. It’s like going back and looking at history. Todd Wilson — But he said, here’s the thing. I had this angst in 2005. Everything was up and to the right. We were growing. We were doing new campuses. We had started a church planting. Like we’re doing all of the stuff. People are turning to us. They’re looking at what we’re doing. We had started a leadership conference. And I just had this angst that something wasn’t right.Todd Wilson — And he said, I couldn’t name it. He said, I needed a therapist. But where does a megachurch pastor who’s having nothing but success with up and to the right, who’s feeling angst about the system, where do you go for therapy in that? He’s like, I didn’t know whether to feel like I was being ungrateful or what.Todd Wilson — And his words were, as you’ve traced the 75 years of the church growth movement and its evolution into a consumer-driven operating system, you have named my angst. I wish I would have had this book in 2005 to name my angst because half the battle is getting our hands around understanding why we’re feeling the way we do.Rich Birch — Yeah, I was talking to denominational leader within the last year to kind of add a bit more flavor even to that angst, who was saying, and this is a fantastic denomination, you know, Jesus loving, you know, fantastic group of people um and have, you know, very similar what you’re saying, like lots of good things going on.Rich Birch — And this was one of those like, After dinner conversations, you know, long ah a long ways away from a bunch of leaders, we were just chatting on the sideline. And he said, you know, the interesting thing, when you look at our tribe, his movement, he rattled off all their stats. We have a certain number of churches. We have a certain number of pastors. We have a certain number of, you know, baptisms every year. It rattles all that off.Rich Birch — And he said, you know, if you were to look at where we were 20 years ago, the number of churches is the same, the number of, and rattled off all these stats that are the same. Like we’re baptizing the same number of people, the attendance is the same, the the like all these things. He said, the only thing that’s gone up in the last 20 years is we’ve doubled our staff head count. There’s twice as many staff today as there was. And when I read, heard about your book and you talk about this angst, I was like, ooh, that’s exactly what he was describing. He’s like, wait a second. what’s happening here. And him as a denominational leader, he had the same read, hey, there’s something wrong with the way we set this thing up. Rich Birch — So your book, let’s actually dive into a little bit. It starts really at 70 year arc from Donald McGavron from 1955, all the way to today. And so for a leader who’s never really stepped back and thought about the history of like, what, how did we get here? It’s the name of your book. Why does knowing what got us to where we are today, this kind of consumer operating system that you describe, why does, how does understanding that help us as we think about the future?Todd Wilson — It’s a really good question. And I’m not sure, honestly, that I when I, when I set out to write this book, that, that that was even driving me to begin with, but very quickly that became the, I realized that’s why I need to write this book.Todd Wilson — So let, let me explain. And I need to give you a little bit of background to explain, because it’s an important question.Rich Birch — Yep, yep, for sure.Todd Wilson — So when I think about the moment that, that I realized we had a problem. Like that that, okay, we’re on this trajectory, things are moving the right direction to the 16%, and I’m back in the leadership of Exponential now. And I’m realizing, oh my goodness, we really do have a problem. And here’s here was what that looked like. Todd Wilson — I believed we had started learning communities and we had very vibrant learning communities And our learning communities got started because we felt like we need to shift the paradigm of people’s measure of success in the scorecard of church. It was very much about we need to shift paradigm. Alan Hirsch was involved with this on how do we shift from just growing large things to growing decentralized things that saturate. And it was very much about scorecard.Todd Wilson — And if you think about it, we’re wanting to move the needle from 5% to 16%. That’s a scorecard thing. So our initiating event was scorecard. But as we got into these learning communities, which in my opinion were the best things we were doing at Exponential. I mean, they were six to eight month learning journeys and we would rock people’s paradigm.Todd Wilson — We really would. People would go through it and be like, Oh my goodness, I got to have a different view of success in the church.Rich Birch — Right. yeahTodd Wilson — And guess what? They’d go home and Sunday’s coming. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — There’s, services to run, there’s people to pastor, there’s things to do. And the aha moment for me came, Rich, when I realized the the whole definition of insanity, that if you just keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for a different outcome, but that’s insanity. And here I am trying to lead a national organization to see a change in scorecard to move the needle to 16%.Todd Wilson — And I remember the day that I realized we’re not going to get there with the operating system we have in place in church right now. This operating system is not capable of getting us to the 16% number.Todd Wilson — That was a personal crisis. I’m leading an organization that’s up and to the right that the needle is moving. But as a futurist, I’m realizing we’re not going to get where we need to be with the operating system in the church. So the the operating system part was what drove me to start writing this book. I’ll let you ask a question there, and then we’ll circle back to the how does it relate to understanding how we got here, though.Rich Birch — Yeah, so ah just to underline what you’re saying there, um you know in in other conversations, I’ve heard leaders say, you know it’s like, um you know what you know what you reach people with is what you end up keeping them with. And so if what I hear you saying, just putting, I think, other language around it, but correct me, is kind of a consumer-oriented or a consumer cultural operating system that we’ve we’ve used as a church… Todd Wilson — Right.Rich Birch — …you know, obviously by definition, if you ah use a um consumption-based model, that doesn’t, leave you it’s very difficult to turn around and say, okay, now become a multiplier. You know, we got you here as a consumer. Okay, now how do we make you a multiplier? Is that the core pain?Todd Wilson — It is. And Rich, you’re painting the picture of why looking back to understand how we got here is important. If it’s true, that are ah If it’s true, and I want to suggest people ought to go look at it for themselves, that the underlying operating system that has evolved over the last 75 years, it’s not where it started with Donald McGavern in 1955. And there was never bad intentions by any of the good people through the 70 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Todd Wilson — We have evolved from what was originally one thing. into a consumer model that is way more focused on success is growing big, success is making converts, not necessarily disciples. And we we can diagnose that if there’s a problem today, and I suggest there is a problem today, then how we got here and understanding how over 70 years, what was intended to be one thing, gradually (like the frog getting boiled in cold water) turned into something else.Todd Wilson — We’ve got to go through the the, if we really want to change the operating system, and I’ve seen how hard it is, guys can have the paradigm shift. We need to change. Then they go back home into the operating system that they’re operating in. And it is really, really hard to just throw off one operating system and embrace another oneTodd Wilson — And I wouldn’t even encourage people to do that. Don’t go home and just change your operating system overnight. But if you do want to make thoughtful, progressive change, the best way to do it is to start by going back and learn the lesson of how did we get where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — How did things get off track to where to where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — And that’s what ended you know, I started out the book really to go after understanding the operating system itself. And very quickly came to the conclusion, oh, we I’m not sure how we’re going to move to a new operating system if people don’t go through the hard work of looking back and understanding how well-intentioned people over time have delivered for us what we have today in a flawed system.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, I know, again, from my own personal experience, not to bring this back to me, but to my own personal experience, again, it’s been interesting to see similar patterns. You know, every couple years, there’s like some new idea that comes up in the church. And oftentimes I’m like, yeah, this is just like of rehash of a thing I saw 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago.Rich Birch — It’s like, oh, this is is brand new. It’s like, ah, it’s echoes of things we’ve seen in the past. So why don’t we just kind of give people a flyover or a walkover of the kind of eras that you kind of define as you went through the book, just to give people a high level. Rich Birch — Ultimately friends, you know, I’m encouraging you to to do two things out of today. One is to pick up, I think this could be a great book for you and your team to go through. You and your leadership team, buy copies of this, read it. I think it could be an interesting book for you or, and go and listen to Todd’s interview with Carey as well. Carey just takes longer in his podcast and has more time. So there’s going to be, there’s lots packed into that as well. Rich Birch — But why don’t you kind of give us a flyover of the eras? And then maybe when you think about each one of those, something that was like, really positive that came from that area something like hey there’s something good there or maybe there’s something there that we’ve got to be cautious about as we think about the future.Todd Wilson — Yeah. And just to be clear, Rich, you know this, ah I’m a local church guy. My calling is a local church. I’m still on staff at a local church. I love the local church. So this part of the, difficulty for me in spending two years and over a hundred hours of interviews and putting this timeline of history together is I love the church.Todd Wilson — And I I, don’t know that I’d be sitting here talking to you if it weren’t for several of these eras I’m getting ready to name to you. So you’ve got really, I think a common thread through across these areas as we jump into them is typically apostolic, evangelistically driven leaders who really want to reach people. Hell is real. Lost people are going there. We got to reach them. And I think that’s the driving factor across all these eras is well-intentioned people…Todd Wilson — And if I can start with the end point, I think we’ve sort of co-opted the more holistic disciple-making growth engine that’s capable of generational disciple-making with strategies for institutional programmatic growth that are not capable of reproduction. They’re very good at growing large things and reaching lots of people, but not necessarily making, you know, through relational disciple making, disciples who make disciples who plant churches that plant churches.Todd Wilson — So here’s how I would do the flyover. When I got started writing this history, I thought I was doing one chapter of this history in another book. Rich Birch — I love it.Todd Wilson — And one chapter turned into two chapters and three chapters. And eventually my editor said, Todd, you just need to do a full book.Rich Birch — Well, that’s a book.Todd Wilson — And it ends up turning into the longest book I’ve written because of the 75 year history. And ah Rich, seriously, don’t, people don’t need to feel bad if they don’t know all the history. I, I’m like a where’s Waldo through a lot of this history. I’ve had a seat at the table for a lot of the stuff through these eras.Todd Wilson — Until writing this book, I did not know how all the dots connected across these eras. And then it became there were so many, oh, oh, oh. So here’s here’s the shot I’ll give to you. Ididn’t really I knew I had heard of Donald McGavern. I knew he was considered the father of the modern church growth movement. I’ve never, prior to writing this book, read about him, gone off and studied him. Gary McIntosh is his by is Donald McGavern’s biographer. So I spent a lot of time with Gary. He pointed me in the right directions.Todd Wilson — And here’s what I learned. Donald McGavern, born in the late 1800s, international missionary in India. um His father and mother were missionaries in India. He came from the mission field and his context was the international mission field. Todd Wilson — Now, get this as the starting point in 1955. He’s an international missionary. He has planted 15 churches himself in his career, none of which ever grew to more than 100 people. So you got to let that sink in. The father of the modern church growth movement planted 15 churches, none of which grew to more than 100. And yet he’s the father of what we consider now the modern church growth movement.Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.Todd Wilson — So the kind the context was, he became fascinated after reading a research report on why some churches in provinces in India were growing and others weren’t. Sometimes churches in the same village that were growing and just down the street, others weren’t.Todd Wilson — So he kind of took a scientific approach, the study of church growth. Like let’s study this like it’s a science, like what’s causing some churches to grow. And he he had very clear conclusions out of that, but you know, a handful of conclusions of what’s causing that.Todd Wilson — And so ultimately, when he came off the mission field by 1960, 61, he started the Church Growth Institute, not for U.S. pastors, but for international missionaries who were on furlough to come home and learn about church growth principles that they could take back to the international mission field. He had no interest in U.S. pastors. Todd Wilson — So for multiple years in the 60s, he was doing that. And when Fuller wanted to start their International School of World Missions, one of their best faculty member ratings was Donald McGavern. So they invited him to come become the founding dean of the the Fuller School of World Missions.Todd Wilson — But he only agreed to do it if he could bring the Church Growth Institute with him. So by 1970, you’ve got that up and running. He’s built his team. He invited a guy called C. Peter Wagner off the mission field to come be on his faculty staff. And in 1970, 71, Peter Wagner convinced Donald McGavern that they ought to run one class for U.S. pastors on church growth.Todd Wilson — And the rest is history. That one class, it just turned into, Imean, people were very interested in it. Denominations became interested. And literally within a couple of years, you’ve got this up and to the right people latching on to church growth science.Todd Wilson — And that starts the process, you know. Even from the beginning, you start to see a little bit of co-opting away from McGavern’s things. Not fast, but a little bit. Todd Wilson — So right on the heels of that, in the 70s then, you’ve got this young kid, ah Bill Hybels… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — …who’s running you know going to go into business and he’s running a street ministry with youth. He’s being mentored by Robert Shuler.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — And Shuler’s got the possibility thinking, think outside the box, very apostolic. Turns out Shuler not only mentors Hybels, but there’s some mentoring of Rick Warren. And so you’ve got the birth of the seeker-sensitive era then.Todd Wilson — You know, if the first era was the McGavern-Roots era, now we’ve got the seeker-sensitive era. And, you know, that can be a positive or a negative stigma. For me, in 1976, I’m in middle school going into high school, not a Christian, live down the street from this movie theater called the Willow Creek Movie Theater. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — And my mom drags us kicking and screaming into the Willow Creek Movie Theater. We were the avatar family for the Seeker Sensitive family movement.Rich Birch — Right. Movement.Todd Wilson — From Seeker Sensitive, you get out of that the what Peter Drucker and Bob Buford would call the large church phenomena and the birth of Leadership Network then with the large church phenomena, which became the megachurch phenomena.Todd Wilson — You’ve got Rick Warren and his masterful work with the purpose-driven church. Rick’s able to put handles on this church growth part, but Rick was a disciple of Donald McGavern, so he’s got the McGavern roots. Todd Wilson — You’ve got Hybels with the Shuler roots. And in that 80 into the 90s with the birth of the Global Leadership Summit and the other, you’ve you’ve got this very influential large church phenomena, purpose-driven, being shaped by, you know, in large part, the combination of Leadership Network, Hybels, Rick Warren… And that brings us up to you know about 2000. Todd Wilson — And just as a flyover, I would then call the era of the externally focused church. You’ve got the rapid fire birth of church planting networks. You’ve got multi-site. People don’t realize prior to 2000, there’s less than 50 multi-site churches.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — Leadership Network engages it in 2000. And from 2000 to 2010 you see an up, I mean, radically up and to the right.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The externally focused church, same thing. Rick Russo has book right in that time period. The missional guys, right in that time period. So the common theme between these church planning networks, the missional guys, the externally focused guys, the multi-site, is we’re now looking outside of ourselves.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — But in large part, we’re still looking outside of ourselves as growth strategies for our things. If you really go look under the hood of a lot of those.Todd Wilson — And then I would say coming out of the externally or outwardly focused era, 2015 to 2025, I just have no other name than the disruption era. As I was doing the research on this book, um I had to stop at like 12 major disruptions that happened in that time period with COVID right in the middle. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so that’s the…Rich Birch — Political upheaval. There’s a bunch in there in that same, you know, yeah, that there’s been a schism.Todd Wilson — You’ve got deconstruction of faith.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You’ve got cynicism. You’ve got platformed individualism with the birth of social media. Now anybody can be their own, you know, playlist influencer. There’s just so many disruptive factors in there.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Now you look at all those disruptive factors with the evolution of what’s happening in the church and the church operating system. And it leaves us on a very shaky foundation at that point that, you know It kind of brings us up to where we are now, and you can either be a pessimist at that or an optimist. And I choose the optimist path that we’re poised for a new day and a new operating system is my prayer.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And friends, as you can see, you just got a real thin slice of, you know, just all the various phases that you do such a great job unpacking for us to help us really understand how we we got here. It was It was wild, it’s wild thinking about a lot of that because I remember, you know, various phases of those over the last particularly 25 years, you know, seeing that up close and seeing, you know, kind of the impact that has had and then wondering about the future and where we go from here. Rich Birch — So thinking about the future and, you know, obviously you’ve, um you know, you’ve you’re making a clear clarion call around, hey, we’ve got to think differently than the consumer driven operating system. We’ve got to we’ve got to come up with something different. After all of that, um and we’ve kind of covered this already, but I’d love to make sure we kind of hone on this, have this resonate with people that are listening in. Why is it so difficult for that system, for the consumer-driven operating system to to really ultimately produce healthy reproduction and multiplication and in churches? What’s structurally ah broken about it? And what what would be some first steps we should be thinking about change to the future as we think about, okay, where we go from here? Todd Wilson — Yeah.Rich Birch — How do we, you know, build on the positive stuff, but also look for something different as we look to the future? Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think we don’t have to make it complex, Rich, if we just keep trying to come back to simplicity for a minute. Like the system that has evolved has actually become pretty complex when you think about it. I would say if we could just focus on, I’m not even going to say changing overnight, but if if I’m a lead pastor, if I’m on staff at a church, I’m really focused on disciple-making as the core mission and growth engine of the church. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Like what is it, most churches are going to say our mission is disciple making or it’s going to be part of it. They’re going to say we have a culture of disciple making, but it is not what the data shows. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — You know, again, 95% of churches do not have a culture of disciple-making. They have a culture of program activity. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so I’m not an advocate of changing everything overnight, but if you want to shift from a culture of program activity to a true culture of disciple-making‚ it has to start with the lead minister having a simple, reproducible, in-practice disciple-making approach that is being modeled for the… I don’t mean discipling the staff. I mean there’s people the lead pastor are personally discipling, modeling that simple, reproducible process. Todd Wilson — Where we’re starting to see traction and where I think the breakthroughs are going to come in getting us to the new operating system of the future, it is going to start, and it’s it’s happening right now, with pastors who say, you know, if I’m really honest, I’ve been preaching the last 52 weeks. I’ve been leading meetings. I’ve been doing, I’ve been doing, I’ve done, but I’m not really personally making disciples. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And I think it’s going to start with the lead pastor, the elders, senior people saying, If we could only have one metric of success in the next 12 months, it’s not growth, it’s not the activities we do, it’s not the new building. If we only have one measure of success, it’s how many disciples have I personally, relationally been involved in? me Not how many have I preached to, not how many outreach events have we done where we’ve got, but what have I personally done on the disciple-making front?Todd Wilson — And I don’t want to make it more complicated than that. That’s what we’re missing right now.Rich Birch — That’s good. No, that’s really good. Yeah, that’s good. I love the practical takeaway of, um yeah, it’s like, who are the three people in your life that you’re actually discipling? Let’s start there. Rich Birch — So this is kind of a sidebar to it.Todd Wilson — Can I just look real quick?Rich Birch — Yes. Yep. Push back. Yep.Todd Wilson — So David Putman, who’s part of what we do at Multipliers, David’s longtime kingdom guy.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You should have him on as an interview here. David is completely focused on what he calls the 5-3-2 right now. Five simple reproducible principles, three rhythms, and and two relationships. So it’s a triad of three people that just keeps reproducing.Todd Wilson — Anybody can do it. A ninth grader can do it. A lead pastor can do it. I’m watching this model take different groups by storm right now. And whether you embrace the 5-3-2 or some other model like it, the key is going to be having a simple, reproducible process that works for the lead pastor and anyone else in the church. Same model.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah we had David on back in 2020 and I’m like we got to get him back on uh the podcast. Rich Birch — So sidebar issue, so this is not something we’d you know kicked around ahead of time but it’s kind of adjacent to this. So I am not a I'm not a teaching pastor. Similar to you. I’m not, i never saw myself as a lead pastor. I’ve always been in the like, Hey, my job’s to be in the second chair, cheering for other lead pastors. I’ve worked for um really over my career as an XP three incredible communicator lead pastors who it would appear like, and it is, they, all three of them, God gifted them with this ability to speak and gather crowds. Like that was like core. And, and I, I’ve spent a lot of time like listening to them and watching them. And part of it just appears to be like, it’s definitely a gifting that’s going on there.Rich Birch — And I, over time, ah questions like the following would come up that I would I'd struggle with, where it’s like, it would appear like this person can gather a lot of people, and we can build more chairs in front of that person and people will hear that person and they’ll they’ll take steps towards Jesus. Rich Birch — And I understand that that’s not, or that’s not a full picture of discipleship. That’s one piece of the discipleship puzzle, but it’s not… And the the kind of organizational pressure is, okay, let’s keep figuring out how to build more seats in front of this person and and their gift. How do we get them to leverage their gift well? Rich Birch — And to be honest, I’ve been in conversations where I’ve been the voice of like, I want to line 100,000 people up in front of this person to hear this person speak because I think the way they talk about Jesus is different than what I’ve heard other people say and it it’ll make a difference. Rich Birch — That is, I think, at the center of this tension that there’s some there seems to be something about the gift of teaching that it’s not, I don’t know whether it’s not evenly distributed, or there’s like a brokenness in humanity and we only want to listen to certain kinds of people. I don’t know whether it’s one of those two things. So all I’ve done is describe a problem and I’m going to say, comment on it, Todd.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think you’re right on the mark. I think I want to affirm that, you know, I mean, everybody has their definitions. I believe the preaching role is, and and the teaching and reaching is a piece of the discipleship equation.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — I think if I’m defining the problem statement, We have made it the biggest piece… Rich Birch — Sure. Todd Wilson — …instead of a piece or a playing a role in it. So I think the issue is that how big we’ve made it. Like you, I was an executive pastor for years. And when I look back on that time, my role was not about holistic relational disciple making that could be the growth engine of the church. and it It was how do we get as many people in seats in the auditorium on Sunday? We need great marketing. We need great outreach.Todd Wilson — And again, I think all of those play a role in the disciple-making process ultimately. But let’s just be honest, that’s not disciple-making itself. It plays a role in the disciple-making process.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So the elephant in the room here is, how do we scale disciple-making? If I if I could be If I could be the czar of this, I’m not, but if I could be, I want the genius at the end. I want the unique gifts that are represented across the whole mosaic and the church, starting with that dynamic creature that can attract the crowd. I want it. Todd Wilson — But I also want those senior leaders of the organization I really want to be focused on what is our growth engine and what is our holistic disciple-making process. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And the number one thing I want from those senior leaders is not their unique gift. I want their modeling, their personal modeling of the simple, reproducible, disciple-making growth engine that anybody in the church can do. Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — I mean, that that preaching gift you’re talking about, that that one lead pastor can do, how many other people in the church can do that?Rich Birch — Right. Not many. Yep.Todd Wilson — So there’s their paradigm. So we need them doing it.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — But I would argue what we need them doing even more than that inspiration is modeling the simple reproducible disciple making thing that people know that’s how we’re going to win here.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I’ve that lines up, I’ve said it at probably, well, not a thousand times, but hundreds of times with lead pastors over the years that in the context of this conversation, I would rather them weave in the discussion about their discipleship relationships as like just a normative part of conversation rather than the, we’re doing six weeks on discipleship and how to become disciple making. I’m like, if you just pepper that stuff in week in, week out, it just is a normative part of the conversation that changes culture. Rich Birch — The kind of like, we’re going to make it a program. We’re going to brand it. We’ve got a great name on it. And my experience has been, it’s it’s a little bit like nailing jello to the wall. There’s there’s actually some of that containing of what we’re talking about actually kills the exact thing that we’re trying to do. And so, man, I think there’s a real tension there. And how do we help those people? Rich Birch — Because it’s not like we want them to do a worse job. It’s not like, hey, if you could stop talking in a way that attracts a crowd, that’s not the answer. But we’ve got to, like you say, how do we move them into those personal relationships? That’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation…Todd Wilson — My question would be, Rich, what what would happen…Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — …if an average lead pastor went on a one-year journey to to of disciple-making themselves? Call it a triad, call it four, five. They’re always, over the next year, going to be in a disciple-making small micro group… Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Wilson — …and all of their preaching is going to be informed.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — That’s their laboratory of learning.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s their paradigm. Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — That’s their paradigm. And now they’re bringing it to life, not just as periodic examples, but, you know, my whole frame of reference of my library is what comes out of that experience. Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — And our problem right now is that’s just lack. It isn’t that it’s inserted a little bit. It’s just lacking.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, this has been great. what ah What a great conversation. And as you can tell, friends, there’s a lot we could talk about there. And a lot you know just there’s a rich conversation that could be had around this. Rich Birch — Let’s let’s pivot and kind of talk a little bit about the book specifically. i want to make sure people pick up copies of this. Again, the name of it is How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. People can get this on Amazon. Are there other places that you would send people if they want to pick up copies of this?Todd Wilson — Yeah. So if they go to church-growth.org, church-growth.org, that’s the book’s homepage. You can actually get the free PDF there. You can get the free audio version there. There’s a full wiki there that people can contribute to. What you kind of mentioned it in passing, but I’ll highlight, it is impossible to read this book and not see yourself in it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.Todd Wilson — Anyone who’s been a Christian for a while, they, the editor of the book said the power of this is going to be, she said, I can tell you the page in the book that I entered the story. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Todd Wilson — So you’ve got the free PDF, the free audio, the wiki, and then for people that just want the paper versions, you can get it on Amazon.Rich Birch — That’s great. And we’ll link to that friends so that you can, you know, find that quickly in the show notes and, and friends, I would encourage you again, to me, I think this could be a great resource to do with your leadership team, as I mentioned earlier. It would be a great kind of conversation starter and really context setter for us to think through these issues as we think about the future. Rich Birch — So kind of as we, as we come to close up today’s conversation, any final words as we wrap up today?Todd Wilson — Rich, I just appreciate the work you’re doing. I want to be an encouragement to pastors. Don’t let this book be, it’s not a deconstruction book. It’s not, oh my goodness, the church has fallen apart.Rich Birch — No, yeah.Todd Wilson — We need to keep plugging away doing what we’re doing, but we also have to have an eye on the future that this operating system that has evolved, everything has a beginning and an end. And this operating system, I believe, is in its final days. I think we’re we’re seeing you know less and less effectiveness with it. And I think we just need to be in a posture of giving permission to the next generations to do some trial and error and experimentation and not be locked into the paradigm of the of the past inheriting previous things.Rich Birch — No, fantastic, Todd. I appreciate you being here. And I would echo that, you know, you’re you’re the kind of leader that’s in our corner trying to help us get better. And so I appreciate the voice that you’ve had for for decades. And so I really appreciate that. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you, get connected, follow along with Multipliers where do we want to send them online?Todd Wilson — Multipliers.org can get me to all the different ways from email to phone to social media. So multipliers.org.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Todd. Appreciate you being here, sir.Todd Wilson — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate it.

The most-downloaded episode in the history of this podcast. Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch, two of the most influential voices in missional church thinking, discuss what it means to recalibrate everything around Jesus in a post-Christendom world. A powerful conversation about reimagining church, mission, and what it means to follow Jesus in contemporary culture.Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Tehillah Niselow is in conversation with Immigration Lawyer, Ashraf Essop and Alan Hirsch, Senior Research Fellow at the New South Institute, responsible for the Migration Governance Reform in Africa research program & Emeritus Professor at UCT See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

America's prisons house a "staggering number" of convicts who didn't commit the crime but said under duress that they did - so says our guest, lawyer Alan Hirsch, who testifies in trials across the country as one of the leading expert witnesses on false confessions. He took the stand not long ago in the chilling case of teenager Brooke Skylar Richardson, who was pressured by police to say that she'd murdered her baby, who was actually stillborn, and then burned the body; the jury acquitted her after forensic studies showed that the baby had never been burned at all. Alan says one problem is that police learn to lie about evidence and use clever interrogation methods that break down suspects' defenses, whether they're actually guilty or not. Some states are requiring police to film their whole interrogations - a step forward but not a panacea.

Apostolic leadership serves as a catalyst for the disruption of settled expectations within church communities. This episode elucidates the premise that such leadership does not aim to maintain comfort within established systems, but rather to uphold faithfulness to core principles. Comfort, as we contend, poses a significant impediment to the vitality of church planting and outreach efforts. When congregants become complacent, their engagement diminishes, thus stymieing the potential for growth and outreach. We acknowledge that while systems can provide structure and support, they may also cultivate an atmosphere of ease that is antithetical to the essence of a life committed to the teachings and challenges inherent in a crucified existence.Coming Monday on Echoes Trough Eternity we will discuss In this episode of Echoes Through Eternity, we explore what happens when spiritual formation begins to reshape your pace, your availability, and your leadership—while others still expect the version of you that ran on urgency.Drawing on the wisdom of Jesus, Alan Hirsch, Henri Nouwen, Richard Rohr, and lived pastoral experience, this conversation names the quiet collision between formation and expectation.If you are leading with care, protecting your soul, and feeling tension instead of applause, this episode is for you.Formation always disrupts assumptions.The question is whether you will stay faithful when it does.

What does it mean to be a gospel-centered church and should we be a gospel-centered church? As we think through taking the Gospel into the world and fulfilling the Great Commission, have we short changed discipleship by making Matthew 28 all about evangelism? In this conversation with Brandon Stiver, author and missiologist Alan Hirsch joins the show to discuss the current state of discipleship within the church, emphasizing the disconnect between modern practices and the teachings of Jesus. He argues that without true discipleship, churches risk producing a form of religion that strays from Christ-likeness. Support the Show Through Venmo - @canopyintl Podcast Sponsors Take the free Core Elements Self-Assessment from the CAFO Research Center and tap into online courses with discount code 'TGDJ25' Take the Free Core Elements Self-Assessment Resources and Links from the show Disciplism : Reimagining Evangelism Through the Lens of Discipleship (Amazon) Reframation : Seeing God, People, and Mission Through Reenchanted Frames (Amazon) Alan's Substack Conversation Notes What we're experiencing now in America is a trend in the church. Alan's experience growing up as a Jewish person in apartheid South Africa If the churches that we lead do not disciple, we will produce bad religion. We are not producing Christ-likeness in our churches. The image of God is reflected in Jesus' way of being human. Modern churches need to align more closely with Jesus' teachings. The consequences of poor discipleship can be detrimental to faith communities. Examples of modern Christians that are getting discipleship right. Churches must focus on producing genuine followers of Christ.   Theme music Kirk Osamayo. Free Music Archive, CC BY License

Get access to all of our 2025 National Disciple Making Forum Content: https://disciplemakerspodcast.supercast.com/   Church Project Track Session 3: Distributed Pastoral Leadership Today, the word “pastor” conveys someone far more centralized and public than was used in the New Testament (often it means the public speaker on a stage). How did the Early Church identify, equip, and empower ‘ordinary' individuals to function as pastors, and how could implementing this change the church today?   Effective Leadership and Distributed Model: Insights from Titus Chapter 1 Dive deep into the principles of effective church leadership as drawn from Titus Chapter 1. This episode outlines the importance of localized pastoral leadership and decentralized structure for fostering rapid gospel movement, referencing works by theologian Alan Hirsch. Learn about the history and evolution of house churches, the critical balance between centralized and light centrality, doctrinal training, and the intricate processes of raising new house church pastors. Gain practical insights into maintaining sound doctrine, facilitating diverse community growth, and the importance of continuous leadership development. The episode also covers the successful transition strategies for legacy churches, effective house church operation, and quantitative versus qualitative measurement of church health. 00:00 Introduction to Titus Chapter One 00:13 The Role of Elders in the Early Church 01:11 Centrality and Movement in the Church 02:16 Distributed Leadership and Sound Doctrine 03:46 House Church Origins and Growth 05:12 Developing Doctrine and Duties 07:56 Pastoring House Church Pastors 14:23 Handling Diversity and Sanctification 17:45 Sunday Gatherings vs. House Churches 24:23 Reflections and Lessons Learned 28:59 Connecting People in a Growing Community 29:56 Leadership Turnover and Mobility 33:13 One-on-One Discipleship Approach 35:35 Challenges in Transitioning Legacy Churches 41:35 Preaching and Teaching in House Churches 45:49 Leadership Pipeline and Testing 50:12 Measuring Success and Engagement 57:46 Recruiting Initial House Church Pastors 59:38 Final Q&A and Leadership Development   Get Discipleship.org's premium Podcast Feed: https://disciplemakerspodcast.supercast.com/  Check out the following eBooks from Discipleship.org: -- What Is Church? And How Important Is It?  https://discipleship.org/shop/what-is-church-and-how-important-is-it/ -- Family Discipleship Blueprint: A Year-by-Year Guide to Family Discipleship https://discipleship.org/shop/family-discipleship-blueprint-a-year-by-year-guide-to-family-discipleship/ -- Becoming a Disciple Maker https://discipleship.org/shop/becoming-a-disciple-maker/ -- National Study: The State of Disciple Making Churches: A 10 Minute Visual Guide https://discipleship.org/shop/national-study-the-state-of-disciple-making-churches-a-10-minute-visual-guide/ -- Reaching & Discipling Women: A Guide to Women's Ministry in Your Church https://discipleship.org/shop/reaching-discipling-women-a-guide-to-womens-ministry-in-your-church/ Check out the following Books from Discipleship.org: -- The Discipleship Gospel https://himpublications.com/product/the-discipleship-gospel/?utm_source=discipleship-org&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=books-page -- Disciple-Making Culture https://himpublications.com/product/disciple-making-culture/ -- Recreated to Be like God: Making Disciples in the Image of Jesus https://a.co/d/6DDvUrC -- King Jesus and the Beauty of Obedience-Based Discipleship https://a.co/d/7d85z6T -- The Disciple Maker's Handbook: Seven Elements of a Discipleship Lifestyle https://a.co/d/4ZHIbQz Take the FREE Disciple Maker Assessment: https://church-multiplication.com/disciplemaker/ Come to the The National Disciple Making Forum: https://discipleship.org/national-disciple-making-forum/ Stay informed - Get our newsletter:  http://eepurl.com/hPViAr Listen - Disciple Maker's Podcast:  https://discipleship.org/resources/podcast/

In this episode, Ken Shuman shares a Substack post by Alan Hirsch* in which Hirsch reflects on words from theologian-psychologist Richard Beck on the concept and nature of "Satan." Hirsch speaks of the forces in the world that are anti-Jesus, and the temptation for those in the Church to adopt the same tools and become anti-Jesus in his name. But he also celebrates the good news of the One who will never be other than who he is - who will never be other than love:"There is a satan to the kingdom of God. But the good news, the Easter news, is this: Jesus did not become the enemy to defeat the enemy. He remained the Son. He remained love. And this is what saves us. He did not fight Satan with Satan's weapons, but refused them altogether. He overcame by being entirely what he always was.And so must we."This episode was recorded on July 25th, 2025.* Alan Hirsch, "The life and mission of Jesus, as well as that of his followers, are not lived in a neutral world," July 19, 2025

In this episode, Cory and Brian interview Alan Hirsch and explore the dynamics of kingdom movements, emphasizing the importance of decentralized leadership and the dangers of centralized power structures. We discuss the significance of metaphors in understanding movements, the cultural implications of fame in leadership, and practical insights for ordinary disciple makers. We also highlight the need for a shift from consumer-driven church models to organic, community-focused movements that prioritize discipleship and service.

In this episode of the Innovative Church Leaders podcast, ⁠⁠⁠Dr. Eric Bryant⁠⁠⁠⁠ talks with Rob Kelly, cofounder of the City Leaders Collective and co-author of Metanoia (with Alan Hirsch). Rob unpacks the power of church unity, the role of networks in city transformation, and the mindset shift needed for true innovation in ministry. Drawing from his upcoming book The Four Greats, Rob challenges leaders to move beyond silos, partner for impact, and reimagine what it means to serve their cities for holistic flourishing.5 Key Takeaways:1. Unity among churches is essential for effective ministry.2. The City Leaders Collective supports holistic city flourishing.3. Metanoia represents a radical shift in mindset for leaders.4. Church leaders should view other churches as teammates, not competitors.5. Engaging with the community can revitalize church leadership. Follow Us:Stay connected and never miss an episode!• YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@EricBryant777 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • Apple Podcasts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-post-christian-podcast/id1509588357⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ •Spotify: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/6ZeQIrzr2tCMyq1VdwxGNn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • Facebook: / ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠catalyzingcommunity ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • TikTok: / ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ericbryant777 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • LinkedIn: / ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠eric-bryant-397003172 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe & Share:If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with fellow leaders and friends! Let's continue helping church leaders reach people and make disciples in our increasingly post-Christian world.Key Moments with Timestamps:00:00 Building Unity in the Church03:58 The Power of Networks in Community Service06:59 Creating a Collective for City Leaders09:37 The Importance of Metanoia in Church Leadership12:14 Encouragement for Church Leaders to InnovateHead over to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.ericbryant.org⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠for additional resources and subscribe to stay updated on future episodes.#InnovativeChurchLeaders #innovation #KingdomofGod #EricBryant #ChurchLeadership #outreach #Discipleship #Evangelism #ChurchHealth #Pastors #creativity #jesus #christianity #faith #faithinaction #renewal #PostChristianPodcast #unity #communityservice #networks #cityleaders #collaboration #leadership #flourishing #metanoia #alanhirsch

If Jesus showed up today, would he be welcome in most churches? Perhaps not, and that's what Alan and Ralph unpack in this episode. Christians should be known for being like Jesus and helping others be like him as well. Too often, we let other things get in the way, but this conversation helps us refocus on what's most important.

Alan Hirsch helped to open up a new way of thinking among church planters and leaders all over the world. But what made him start writing and speaking prophetically? What shaped his ministry along the way? Ralph and Alan talk about their younger years and how formative moments and God's persistent pressing created the unique voice that they both brought to the evangelical world.

​​In this episode, Brian and Cory discuss the evolution of the Kansas City Underground, focusing on the six elements of movement DNA (mDNA) that were developed by Alan Hirsch. The mDNA has shaped and guided who we are as a network, though it's not something we always talk about. We explore the importance of paradigm shifts, the role of community, and the necessity of embodying the principles of disciple-making in everyday life. We take time to give you a high level introduction of (1) Jesus as Lord, (2) the missional incarnational impulse, (3) disciple-making ecosystems, (4) liminality and communitas (5) apostolic environments and (6) the need for organic systems that allow for growth and multiplication within the church.

Nachum Segal presents Elliot Weiselberg with the YLS Update, Alan Hirsch of the Matzoh Fund, Rav Daniel Glatstein to discuss his ArtScroll Haggadah, great Jewish music, the latest news from Israel and Morning Chizuk with Rabbi Dovid Goldwasser,

In this episode Gareth shares his journey in church leadership, discussing his early experiences, challenges, and the evolution of his approach to leading a church how understanding our call to release God's purpose in people has led to him creating environments for personal growth for all as disciples - shifting from large gatherings to more intimate, accountable groups where we coach and ask questions more than give answers.   Church Leadership Journeys and Challenges Gareth shared his early passion for leading a church, starting at age 13, and how he became a senior leader at 22. He also talked about the challenges and opportunities that came with leading a church, including a significant shift in vision around 2006-2007, which led to building a new church on a business park. Gareth then discusses his journey of discovery, exploring how to unlock the potential of a church in a society that seemed to have turned its back on it. This led to the creation of a multi-site model with several locations. Gareth then further reflected on the potential that still remained to be tapped into.      Gareth's Leadership Journey and Bible College Anthony and Gareth discussed Gareth's transition into a senior leadership position and his experiences with his father and Bible college. Gareth noted that the practical application of his learning was crucial, and that the apprenticeship model was integral to his development. Gareth also expressed his appreciation for working with his father, highlighting the positive aspects of their collaboration.      Leadership and Change Management Strategies Gareth discussed his approach to leadership, emphasizing the importance of understanding different perspectives and approaches. He shared his experience of working with his father and father-in-law, highlighting the need to respect and understand different generations and approaches. Gareth also touched on the challenges of leading a church through significant changes, such as selling a building and moving to a warehouse. He stressed the importance of having a clear vision and understanding the reasons behind these changes. Anthony sought Gareth's advice on how to lead people through such changes, and Gareth emphasized the need for a strong vision and understanding of the reasons behind the changes.      Gareth's Vision for Church Growth Gareth shared his personal experience of a moment of clarity that led him to envision a change in the church he was leading. He emphasized the importance of honoring the past while tilting towards the future and the next generation. He also discussed the transition of the church's name from its original name to "Everyday Champions" in 2006, and subsequent expansions to different locations. Anthony agreed with Gareth's points, referencing a quote from Alan Hirsch about honoring generations.      Decentralizing Church Model for Growth Anthony and Gareth discussed the evolution of their church's model from a traditional, geographically-based structure to a more decentralized, technology-driven approach. They acknowledged the importance of proximity of leaders in maintaining the initial model, but also recognized the need for change as they sought to reach a wider audience. Gareth shared their experience of opening a mobile coffee space in Greenwich, which allowed them to listen to and engage with people who weren't attending church. This shift in approach led to a better understanding of the questions people were asking, which differed from those addressed in the traditional model. The conversation ended with Gareth suggesting that their new model was akin to building a factory for the future, while still maintaining the existing structure.      Purpose, Discipleship, and Human Nature Gareth and Anthony discussed the concept of purpose and its relation to the church and individual beliefs. Gareth emphasized the importance of understanding the individual's purpose rather than fitting them into a precast mold. He also highlighted the role of discipleship in this process, suggesting that people have the answers within them but need an environment to allow these answers to emerge. Anthony raised a theological question about the fallen nature of humanity and the potential for self-deception. Gareth agreed, noting that there are competing seeds within individuals, and the goal is to create an environment where the seed of vision can grow. The conversation concluded with Gareth acknowledging that this transition is ongoing and has been a significant shift in his perspective.      Shift to Intimate Conversations and Content Gareth discussed the shift in their model from focusing on large crowds to smaller, more intimate groups. He emphasized the importance of one-to-one conversations in unlocking potential, citing Jesus' example. Gareth also explained their new approach, where content is digitally driven and can be accessed at any time, with groups meeting in various locations. He stressed the need for environments where people can't hide and emphasized the role of leaders in equipping the saints for works of service. Anthony agreed with Gareth's points, noting the importance of personal relationships and the exposure of hidden issues in larger crowds.      Accountability and Coaching in Church Model Gareth and Anthony discussed the importance of accountability and evaluation in their church model, contrasting it with the traditional "come and see" approach. They emphasized the need for individuals to set goals and seek change, with Gareth suggesting a simple ABC framework for awareness, barrier, and change. Anthony agreed, noting the need for more engaging questions in their discussions. They also discussed the role of coaching in their approach, with Gareth highlighting the importance of drawing out what's inside people rather than just pouring in information. Anthony expressed interest in Gareth's coaching methods and invited him to join a future podcast and launch event. Gareth agreed and encouraged listeners to consider the size of their vision and the potential for change.      Legacy, Contribution, and God's Presence Gareth challenged the participants to consider their legacy and how they can contribute positively to the world in the next 500 years. He emphasized the importance of going beyond personal interests and contributing to the greater good. Gareth also encouraged the participants to connect with him on social media platforms and to seek a deeper understanding of God. He ended the conversation with a prayer, asking for forgiveness and guidance in expanding their awareness of God's presence and purpose in their lives.

This is a conversation with Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost that gets to the heart of what the church is called to be - a community of adventure, risk, and mission. Alan and Mike have revised and re-released their book "The Faith of Leap" that challenges the church to shed its obsession with safety and security, and instead embrace the risky, liminal spaces where the kingdom of God breaks through. We'll explore how the church has become too inwardly focused, too preoccupied with maintaining its own institutions, when it should be a sent people, a missional movement unleashed into the world. Alan and Michael will share powerful stories of ordinary believers taking courageous leaps of faith, and how their example can inspire us all. This is a conversation about rediscovering the church's essential calling - to be a community that encounters the living God, and then boldly steps out in response, ready to see the reign of God extended in our neighborhoods and cities. It's a call to adventure, to risk, to the kind of faith that changes everything. This conversation will challenge our assumptions about what the church is supposed to be. Too often, we've allowed the church to become a place of comfort and security, when it's meant to be a launching pad for mission and transformation. Alan and Michael are inviting us to rethink everything, to let the call of the kingdom reshape our understanding of ecclesiology. This is a conversation that I believe has profound implications, not just for the church, but for the way we engage the world around us. So join us and recover the faith of leap. Michael and Alan's Book:The Faith of LeapSubscribe to Our Substack: Shifting CultureConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTubeConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link belowEmail jjohnson@allnations.us, so we can get your creative project off the ground! "Ask Me Anything": What Do You Want From God?Welcome to Ask Me Anything, the podcast where we give you biblical answers to...Listen on: Apple Podcasts SpotifySupport the show

Why is it that we can be surrounded by people—even friends—and still feel so lonely? Alan Hirsch, renowned missional thinker, has an idea about this that he calls "communitas."In this conversation, Alan helps us explore what it means to be a community on mission and how that could transform our churches into places where we experience both belonging and purpose.

In this episode of 'The Biggest Table' podcast, I discuss the intersection of food, table gatherings, and Christian unity with guests Heather Gorman and Mark Nelson, authors of 'Lunchroom Theology, Pushing Tables Together in a Fractured World.' The conversation explores the inspiration behind their book, which uses the metaphor of a high school lunchroom to illustrate social and theological divisions. They highlight practical steps for fostering inclusive and meaningful table fellowship as modeled by Jesus, while addressing modern sociological factors contributing to division. The discussion underscores the church's role in embracing and living out the unity that Jesus prayed for, by having generous conversations, practicing hospitality, and avoiding divisive behaviors. Both guests share personal anecdotes and practical advice on how to navigate deep and sometimes uncomfortable conversations around the table, stressing that change is both possible and essential for the church to effectively extend the Kingdom of God.Mark Nelson and Heather Gorman co-authored Lunchroom Theology: Pushing Tables Together in a Fractured World. Heather Gorman (PhD, Baylor University) is Professor of New Testament at Johnson University and author of Interweaving Innocence: A Rhetorical Analysis of Luke's Passion Narrative as well as numerous journal articles and essays on the Gospels, Acts, ancient rhetoric, and reception history.Heather Gorman's faculty page. Mark Nelson is the executive director of Three Rivers Collaborative and a coauthor of Reframation: Seeing God, People, and Mission Through Reenchanted Frames with Alan Hirsch. Mark is the founding pastor of Crossings, a faith community in Knoxville, Tennessee, where he served for fifteen years.Lunchroom TheologyThree Rivers CollaborativeThis episode of the Biggest Table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose Coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. For our listeners, Wild Goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one time order using the code TABLE at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wildgoosecoffee.com. 

In this conversation we get to the heart of the divisions and fractures we're seeing in our society and in the church. Heather Gorman and Mark Nelson, the authors of the book "Lunchroom Theology," paint a vivid picture of the polarization all around us - the way we sort ourselves into different tables and groups, often suspicious or distrustful of those who aren't like us. But what's so compelling is how Heather and Mark point us back to the radical, subversive vision of Jesus - the way he broke down barriers, invited the unexpected to his table, and called his followers to a radical unity. They unpack how the early church struggled with this, but also found creative, improvisational ways to live it out. Ultimately, this is a conversation about recovering the imagination to see the world differently, to tell better stories, and to participate in the restoration that Jesus inaugurated. It's a call to intellectual humility, to curiosity about those who are different from us, and to a faith that is rooted in the mystery and wonder of God, not just a set of propositions. Heather and Mark offer a compelling alternative to the fear-driven, tribal mentality that so often dominates our public discourse. It's a vision of community, of neighbor-love, of pushing tables together - even when it's messy and uncomfortable. This is the kind of conversation we need more of. Join us at the table. Mark Nelson and Heather Gorman co-authored Lunchroom Theology: Pushing Tables Together in a Fractured World. Mark is the executive director of Three Rivers Collaborative and a coauthor of Reframation: Seeing God, People, and Mission Through Reenchanted Frames with Alan Hirsch. Mark is the founding pastor of Crossings, a faith community in Knoxville, Tennessee, where he served for fifteen years.Heather (PhD, Baylor University) is Professor of New Testament at Johnson University and author of Interweaving Innocence: A Rhetorical Analysis of Luke's Passion Narrative as well as numerous journal articles and essays on the Gospels, Acts, ancient rhetoric, and reception history.Heather & Mark's Book:Lunchroom TheologyHeather's Recommendation:The Kingdom, the Power, and the GloryMark's Recommendation:A Burning in my BonesJoin Our Patreon for Early Access and More: PatreonConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.youtube.com/@shiftingculturepodcastConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link belowSupport the show

What if transformation isn't just about self-driven change, but a divine journey that starts from within? In this episode of Lead Time, we sit down with Rob Kelly, co-author of "Metanoia: How God Radically Transforms People, Churches, and Organizations from the Inside Out," to explore this profound concept. Find the book here: https://www.metanoia-book.com/Rob shares his unique theological path from Pentecostalism to a more sacramental and missional approach, drawing from the works of NT Wright and Alan Hirsch. Together, we unpack the true biblical meaning of metanoia and its potential to deeply transform individuals and the church, uniting us in Christ's eternal love.Our conversation also ventures into the transformative power of metanoia as experienced by biblical figures like Paul, Peter, and the woman at the well. These narratives illustrate how encounters with Christ lead to irreversible shifts in understanding and being. We emphasize that such transformation is ultimately God's work, fundamentally altering our perception and connection to the Creator. This reorientation leaves no room for pride, instead highlighting the role of humans as receivers of divine revelation.Lastly, we tackle the complexities of organizational change within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and beyond, discussing the challenges posed by entrenched structures and vested interests. Rob and I explore the necessity of renewal through sound biblical theology and understanding human behavior, advocating for a grace-filled approach to institutional critique. We reimagine church structures, proposing a shift from hierarchical control to influence-driven systems inspired by Jesus' original design. Tune in to discover how embracing metanoia can foster genuine dialogue, transformation, and unity within our faith communities.Ask Ralph - Christian FinanceJoin financial expert Ralph Estep, Jr - Daily tips for balancing your faith and finances. Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify All Business. No Boundaries. The DHL Supply Chain Podcast Welcome to All Business. No Boundaries, a collection of supply chain stories by DHL...Listen on: Apple Podcasts SpotifySupport the Show.Join the Lead Time Newsletter! (Weekly Updates and Upcoming Episodes)https://www.uniteleadership.org/lead-time-podcast#newsletterVisit uniteleadership.org

Have you ever wondered what it truly means to live out your faith beyond Sunday gatherings? Join us as we break down the missional incarnational impulse, inspired by Alan Hirsch's book, "The Forgotten Ways." We discuss how aligning our lives with God's will can transform our communities and everyday interactions. Discover how we, as Christians, are called to actively participate in God's mission to redeem and restore the world through the gospel, following Jesus' example of being sent to share the good news.Get ready to hear some compelling personal stories, including my experiences working with Nehemiah, a nonprofit in Madison. We'll share valuable lessons learned from black leadership, and discuss the transition from traditional church events to a lifestyle of continuous service and involvement. Listen as we explore how fostering genuine connections in our neighborhoods can have a profound impact, encouraging us all to embody the life, love, and grace of Jesus in our everyday actions and interactions. This episode challenges us to rethink our approach to community and service, aiming for real change and meaningful engagement.Support the Show.If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing to Madison Church on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback means the world to us, so please take a moment to leave a review and share the podcast with your friends and family.For inquiries, suggestions, or collaboration opportunities, please reach out to us at help@madisonchurch.com. For the latest updates and behind-the-scenes content, follow us on social media: Facebook Instagram YouTube New episodes are released every Monday, so mark your calendars and join us weekly! If you'd like to support the show, you can make a donation here. Your generosity helps us continue to bring you meaningful content. This podcast is intended for general informational purposes only. The views expressed by the hosts or guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Madison Church. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. For detailed information regarding our terms of use and privacy policy, please visit our website.Thank you for being part of the Madison Church community! We appreciate your support.

In this training, we continue our exploration of the five gifts that Jesus has given his church. Every Christ-follower has specific gifts given to them by Jesus so that we might all become more like Jesus, experience the fullness of God's presence, and participate in his ongoing mission in the world together. This week we look at the fifth of these five gifts: teachers.Special thanks to Alan Hirsch. J.R. Woodward, Nathan Brewer, Brentview Church, and Jon Ritner for their contributions to this episode.

Can the essence of your faith be captured in six core values? Join us for a special episode as we revisit the fundamental beliefs that have shaped our journey. Drawing inspiration from Alan Hirsch's "The Forgotten Ways," we dissect our missional DNA, emphasizing that "Jesus is Lord," and the critical roles of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Shepherds, and Teachers in our community. As we reflect on a decade of growth and challenges, we also look ahead, aiming to sustain and expand our mission in Madison.What makes a faith movement endure the test of time? In our discussion, we explore the historical and contemporary impacts of effective disciple-making, from the early church to the explosive growth of Christianity in China, and the rise and fall of the Methodist movement. By examining these examples, we highlight the importance of fostering a disciple-making culture at Madison Church. Our goal is to equip every member to become a disciple-maker, ensuring the longevity and transformative power of our community.Are you ready to move beyond passive faith? We challenge the prevalent "feed me" mentality by emphasizing action and transformation as the true essence of discipleship. Drawing on the teachings of Jesus and Paul, we encourage a community of high challenge and high invitation, where every believer is called to actively live out their faith. Reflect on your own journey and the importance of mutual sacrifice, community support, and openly sharing your faith, as we strive to turn Madison Church into a thriving missional movement.Support the Show.If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing to Madison Church on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback means the world to us, so please take a moment to leave a review and share the podcast with your friends and family.For inquiries, suggestions, or collaboration opportunities, please reach out to us at help@madisonchurch.com. For the latest updates and behind-the-scenes content, follow us on social media: Facebook Instagram YouTube New episodes are released every Monday, so mark your calendars and join us weekly! If you'd like to support the show, you can make a donation here. Your generosity helps us continue to bring you meaningful content. This podcast is intended for general informational purposes only. The views expressed by the hosts or guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Madison Church. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. For detailed information regarding our terms of use and privacy policy, please visit our website.Thank you for being part of the Madison Church community! We appreciate your support.

What if the secret to transforming your entire life lies in a daily, conscious choice? As we embark on our new series, "Rediscovering Our Forgotten Ways," we're taking a moment to reflect on the incredible journey of Madison Church as we approach our 10th anniversary. From initial excitement to the struggle of preparation, I share my personal challenges in crafting this talk and how this series will pivot from our typical Bible studies to explore what sets Madison Church apart. We recount the resilience and unexpected growth during the pandemic, highlighting personal transformations within our congregation and contemplating our values and future vision.How many parts of your life have you truly surrendered to Jesus? In this episode, we dive into the profound significance of embracing Jesus as Lord in every aspect of our lives. We examine the rapid spread of early Christianity and Paul's crucial assertion on the resurrection, emphasizing how the declaration "Jesus is Lord" can be revolutionary and transformative. It's a call to move beyond a compartmentalized faith towards a holistic surrender to Christ's guidance, challenging ourselves to submit every part of our lives to His lordship.Is self-help really the answer, or is there something more profound at play? By exploring Matthew 16, we discuss the concepts of self-sacrifice and the futility of self-help, reminding ourselves that faith is a lifelong journey of internal transformation. We stress the importance of choosing Jesus every day, inviting Him to guide and transform us from within. Mark your calendars for July 14th, 2024, as a significant date for new beginnings. Listen along as we explore how personal transformation through Jesus can spark broader changes, starting in Madison and extending far beyond.Support the Show.If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing to Madison Church on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback means the world to us, so please take a moment to leave a review and share the podcast with your friends and family.For inquiries, suggestions, or collaboration opportunities, please reach out to us at help@madisonchurch.com. For the latest updates and behind-the-scenes content, follow us on social media: Facebook Instagram YouTube New episodes are released every Monday, so mark your calendars and join us weekly! If you'd like to support the show, you can make a donation here. Your generosity helps us continue to bring you meaningful content. This podcast is intended for general informational purposes only. The views expressed by the hosts or guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Madison Church. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. For detailed information regarding our terms of use and privacy policy, please visit our website.Thank you for being part of the Madison Church community! We appreciate your support.

Dr. Alan Hirsch, neurologist and psychiatrist, joins Bob Sirott to talk about why we lose our sense of smell as we age, when our sense of smell is heightened, and why coffee beans are considered a palate cleanser for your nose. He also explains a study he created that involves ice cream flavors and romantic […]

In this training, we continue our exploration of the five gifts that Jesus has given his church. Every Christ-follower has specific gifts given to them by Jesus so that we might all become more like Jesus, experience the fullness of God's presence, and participate in his ongoing mission in the world together. This week we look at the fourth of these five gifts: shepherds.Special thanks to Alan Hirsch. J.R. Woodward, Nathan Brewer, Jessie Cruickshank, John Ortberg, Bre Wiebe, and Susannah Crook for their contributions to this episode.

Join me and my guest Joe Shannon (senior consultant at Newton Institute) as we discuss original design and five-fold ministry gift expressions and how they contribute powerfully to organizational success.You'll also hear about how the team at Newton Institute, in partnership with Alan Hirsch, Founder of 5Q, developed frameworks and assessments (with Kingdom foundations) that can be used for corporate teams of all faith backgrounds.After all, the goodness of the King and His Kingdom is available for everyone. Show some love and support the show at https://buymeacoffee.com/shaebynesConnect with Joe Shannon at https://www.mpactq.com/ or https://newtoninstitute.com/About Your Host:Affectionately known as ‘Chief Fire Igniter,' Shae Bynes inspires and equips leaders to be catalysts for transformation in the marketplace. Shae is a pioneer in the Kingdom entrepreneurship movement who has touched the hearts and minds of over one million people through her writing, teaching, speaking, and mentoring since 2012. As an advisor and strategist, she has served start-up entrepreneurs and established CEOs across various industries. Whether she is speaking with audiences publicly or consulting clients privately, you can expect Shae to deliver an abundance of truth with love, grace, and contagious joy. Learn more at https://shaebynes.com

Former economic policy official Alan Hirsch, now Emeritus Professor at UCT and Research Fellow at the New South Institute, joins John Maytham on the Afternoon Drive show to reflect on this coalition's potential to reshape the economic landscape through pragmatic reforms.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this training, we continue our exploration of the five gifts that Jesus has given his church. Every Christ-follower has specific gifts given to them by Jesus so that we might all become more like Jesus, experience the fullness of God's presence, and participate in his ongoing mission in the world together. This week we look at the third of these five gifts: evangelists.Special thanks to Alan Hirsch. J.R. Woodward, Nathan Brewer, Jessie Cruickshank, Kurt Willems, Ashley Dalen, and Matthew Million for their contributions to this training.

In this episode Cynthia interviews Alan Hirsch, author of 12 books, founding director of Forge Mission Training Network and a thought leader in the world of movements. Describing the six key elements of Movemental Christianity, Hirsch puts Jesus Is Lord at the center of it all. We will explore why this is needed and also some of the ways churches have strayed from this in our world today.

In this training, we continue our exploration of the five gifts that Jesus has given his church. Every Christ-follower has specific gifts given to them by Jesus so that we might all become more like Jesus, experience the fullness of God's presence, and participate in his ongoing mission in the world together. This week we look at the second of these five gifts: prophets.Special thanks to Alan Hirsch. J.R. Woodward, Nathan Brewer, Jon Ritner, Rich Robinson, Tim Catchim, Jessie Cruickshank, and Brad Brisco for their contributions to this training series.

Nachum Segal presents Rabbi Ari Kahn to discuss Senator Joe Lieberman, ob"m, Alan Hirsch to discuss The Matzoh Fund, great Jewish music, the latest news from Israel and Morning Chizuk with Rabbi Dovid Goldwasser.

In this episode, Andrew interviews Brad Brisco, where they talk about why thinking of ONLY the cross is stopping us from having a robust understanding of Jesus, and a deeper relationship with Him. Brad is currently the Director of Multiplication Strategies for the North American Mission Board. He holds a doctorate in the area of missional ecclesiology, and his doctoral thesis was on assisting existing congregations in transitioning in a missional direction. He is the co-author of Missional Essentials, a twelve-week small group study guide, The Missional Quest: Becoming a Church of the Long Run, Next Door As It Is In Heaven, and Covocational Church Planting. He blogs regularly at missionalchurchnetwork.com. In this episode: • The danger of underdeveloped Christology • What the incarnation teaches us • Reduced understanding shrinks our faith • Being with and for creation • The cruciform shaped life • How to cultivate a more robust Christology RESOURCES MENTIONED: • Image - Robust Christology • Missional Church Network • The Incarnation and the Church's Witness by Darrel Guder • ReJesus: Remaking the Church in our Founder's Image by Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch • Brad's Private Facebook Group Original Release Date: 02/29/24 SUBSCRIBE to our free weekly newsletter, Disciple Notes: https://jandrewstroud.substack.com/ SHOP the ITH Store: https://www.intotheharvest.org/shop/ ******************** Want to Help Us Grow? •  Subscribe and give us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify •  Share this episode on Facebook •  If you believe in what we're doing and want to help us reach a wider audience, become a monthly supporter The post #189 – Brad Brisco: Your Church Is Weak Because Your Jesus Is Small appeared first on Into the Harvest

It's the best of 2023! We are going to count down the most listened to episodes of the past year and I am going to countdown my favorite books of the year. But before we dive in, I just have to say thank you – thank you to you, the listener. I have so enjoyed making this podcast and having the conversations I'm having, but without you there wouldn't be a podcast. So keep listening. Keep spreading the word. Tell your friends, your family, even your enemies to listen to Shifting Culture. You can find a list of my favorite books of the year here:Favorite Books of 2023Top 10 episodes of 2023:Ep. 136 Alan Hirsch & Rob Kelly - Metanoia: How God Radically Transforms People, Churches, and Organizations From the Inside Out Ep. 124 James Martin, SJ - The Promise of Jesus's Greatest Miracle Ep. 135 Scot McKnight - The Pivotal Priorities, Practices, and Powers to Transform Into a Tov Culture Ep. 97 Pete Greig - Shadows and LightEp. 95 Beth Paz - A God who Identifies With Us in our Grief and Suffering Ep. 104 Hugh Halter - Family on Mission Ep. 122 Karen Swallow Prior - The Evangelical Imagination that has Shaped a Culture in Crisis Ep. 130 Michael Frost Returns - Mission is the Shape of Water Ep. 113 Andrew Root Returns - When Church Stops Working Ep. 128 Andrew Root - The Church in an Age of Secular Mysticisms Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.youtube.com/@shiftingculturepodcastConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below.Support the show

On this special edition of the Ephesiology Podcast, Andrew and Michael begin a new series called Make Disciples. On this episode, they are joined by Alan Hirsch to talk about the definition of “disciple.” Be sure to follow along with us in Michael’s recent book, Make Disciples: Discover the Spiritual Journey of a Christ-Follower and watch the video series on Ephesiology Master Classes. If you have a question or topic that you'd like to hear addressed on the Ephesiology Podcast, just send it to Andrew at andrewjohnson@neartownchurch.org. Find the podcast on your favorite podcast app Just search for “Ephesiology” Our Podcasters Michael CooperProfessor | Missiologist | AuthorMichael is the missiologist in residence with East West where he focuses on equipping and empowering church leaders in evangelism, discipleship, leadership, and catalyzing church planting movements in the most difficult to reach places on the planet. He is the author of Ephesiology: The Study of the Ephesian Movement as well as many other books and academic articles. He has lectured at universities around the world and serves as affiliate faculty at Kairos University where he facilitates the degree programs in partnership with Ephesiology Master Classes.Andrew JohnsonMinistry Lead, West Village ChurchAndrew is a proud husband, father and pastor who desires all to know the one true King. He is honored to serve at West Village Church in Victoria, BC. Previously, he's ministered in Houston, Chicago, Indy, Flagstaff and Tempe in a variety of church contexts. Andrew has a BA in Christian Ministry from Trinity International University and an MA from Phoenix Seminary. He is currently a Doctor of Ministry student at Kairos University and is the co-host of the Ephesiology Podcast. When not at work, he's an avid disc golfing, vinyl playing, Spider-Man following/collecting fellow. Go Pacers. Make Disciples Video Series A whole host of guests join the Ephesiology Podcast to explore the spiritual journey of a Christ-follower, starting with defining discipleship and concluding with the challenge of making more disciples. Each episode offers reflections and discussions with leaders who are passionate about making disciples. Check it out! Pre-Order Make Disciples at Amazon In this insightful book, Dr. Cooper embarks on a journey of spiritual discovery through the lens of discipleship. Beginning with an enlightening introduction that probes the essence of discipleship, the book’s chapters traverse a rich terrain of faith, purpose, and action. From understanding God’s will and engaging with people to the preparation required for a life of discipleship, the book delves into unity, witness, godliness, prayer, respect, continuous learning, embracing suffering, and the transformative power of multiplication. Each chapter offers profound insights into these aspects of discipleship, illuminating the path for readers seeking to deepen their faith and commitment. The concluding chapter underscores the central mission of discipleship: making more disciples. The book provides a powerful call to action for all those seeking to follow Christ’s path in a meaningful way. Pre-Order at Amazon! Two Free Learning Experiences from Ephesiology Master Classes Areopagus Symposium Taking its inspiration from the historical and philosophical legacy of Athens, Greece, the Areopagus Symposium focuses on intellectual and philosophical topics related to Christology, missiology, and ecclesiology. We invite scholars, theologians, and practitioners from diverse backgrounds to engage in a profound exploration of the theological landscape at the intersection of these vital disciplines. Check it out! Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement If you want to understand principles for the growth of Christianity in the first century, the place to begin is the city of Ephesus. In this winsome study, Ephesiology offers readers a comprehensive view of the empowering work of the Holy Spirit in the most significant city of the New Testament, and compels us to ask the question: how can we effectively connect Christ to our culture? “Masterfully handling the book of Ephesians and using its content as a definitive guide, Michael Cooper lays a theologically strong foundation that is both corrective and directive to disciple making movements. The principles he gleans from the book of Ephesians and related texts, help to ensure the on-going multiplication and maturation of a movement. Because these are supra-cultural principles, they are applicable anywhere in the world.” Marvin J. Newell, Staff Missiologist, Missio Nexus, Author of Crossing Cultures in Scripture Buy This Now! Educating to Shift the Tracks of History To shift the tracks of history requires leaders who are equipped to critically assess and engage the contours of contemporary culture. As a new initiative in collaboration with the Movement Leaders Collective, Kairos University, and Ephesiology, we deliver just-in-time theological education focused on issues important to you, mxAcademy is designed as the theological and missiological foundation to unlock your potential as a movement leader and catalytic thinker. mxAcademy is a dynamic and innovative educational experience rooted in mDNA.We dream of a church fully equipped, fully mature, fully mobilized, and fully alive. A church that lives and breathes the Good News of Jesus! Learn More Do you enjoy the Ephesiology Podcast? Partner with the Pod The Ephesiology Podcast comes to you from a desire to engage in community conversations about the intersection of theology and culture. We do not believe such dialogue should come with a cost so the podcast will always be free. However, if you've benefited from the Ephesiology Podcast, would you consider a nominal $5 per month donation? All proceeds from the podcast go toward helping bring needed theological education to the majority world through our Ephesiology Master Class initiative to end a theological famine. We'd be honored to partner with you to continue providing solid biblical, theological, and missiological content for listeners around the world. Donate The Ephesiology Podcast and Ephesiology Master Classes are ministries of TELOS.GO, a registered 501c3 non-profit agency committed to imaginatively missional ways of engageing culture, church planting, and theological education. Your donation to the podcast is tax deductible.

On this special edition of the Ephesiology Podcast, Andrew and Michael begin a new series called Make Disciples. On this episode, they are joined by Alan Hirsch to talk about the definition of “disciple.” Be sure to follow along with us in Michael's recent book, Make Disciples: Discover the Spiritual Journey of a Christ-Follower and … Continue reading "Episode 150: What is a Disciple with Alan Hirsch"

One of the world's leading missiologists, Alan Hirsch, comes to us from Australia, explaining how we should question titles but embrace giftings in the church. Learn about the gifting that Christ has given his church, outlined in Eph 4, and a test we can take to help us understand the roles of: apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, teacher.  Kathryn and Alan discuss how these giftings have a scope way beyond church and ministry staff positions. They also talk about how certain leadership gifts have been elevated in this season of the Western Church, and how we need to elevate, and refuse to quench, all of the gifts... in order to see the future Church flourish. If you'd like to check out Alan's book, The Starfish and the Spirit, you can do that here: https://www.amazon.com/Starfish-Spirit-Unleashing-Leadership-Organizations/dp/0310098378 If you're interested in taking the APEST test, you can do that here: https://5qcentral.com/product/apest-vocational-assessment/ If you're interested in vocational calling in the marketplace, check out: https://www.mpactq.com/for-leaders The Dwellings Podcast is only possible because of the generous partnership of people like you.  If you would like to become a Dwellings Partner through a one-time or monthly gift, you can sign up today here: https://dwellings.info/give. We are constantly releasing new resources. The Dwellings App is the best place to be kept up to date on all of our new resources. You can download our app today by following this link: https://dwellings.info/app Join our newsletter here: https://dwellings.info/connect If you want to get in touch with us, you can email us at info@dwellings.info

In this episode, Alan Hirsch and Rob Kelly join us to talk about their book Metanoia: How God Radically Transforms, People, Churches, and Organizations from the Inside Out. We have a great conversation on repentance, movements, organizational change, unlearning, relearning, vision, future thinking, and more. This metanoia process that they take us through is really important. How do we have our minds renewed? How do we shift paradigms and have our mind's blown? Join us as we discover how to engage in paradigm shifts individually and organizationally, so it sticks and lasts. Alan Hirsch is one of the founders of Movement Leaders Collective, as well as founding the Forge Mission Training Network and 5QCollective. Known for his innovative approach to mission and thought-leadership, Alan is highly sought after movement strategist for leaders, churches and denominations across the Western world. He is the author of numerous award winning books including The Forgotten Ways, 5Q, ReJesus, The Shaping of Things to Come, and The Permanent Revolution. He and his lovely wife Debra hail from the land down under, but currently live in Melbourne, Australia.Rob Kelly is the Founder & CEO of the FORCLT Network. Rob is also co-founder of the City Leaders Collective (with Eric Swanson), which connects and equips city network leaders globally. Rob is co-author of the book ‘Metanoia' (with Alan Hirsch), and the founder & lead author of the State of the City Report. Prior to this, Rob served 13 years as a pastor, along with numerous other leadership positions, including co-founding CLT/ONE and lecturing at Gordon-Conwell Seminary.  Rob is a graduate of the University of Washington and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary-Charlotte, and is pursuing doctoral studies from Bakke Graduate University.  Rob is married to Ani, and they are the proud parents of Addison and RJ.The book:MetanoiaConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcastConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below.Support the show

Thanks for tuning into this episode of Microchurches! Continuing in our Microchurch Conversations series, this week we'll hear from Stacy Gaskins as we talk through giftings within a microchurch, and more specifically how tools like APEST can help microchurch communities mature and more fully and effectively fulfill their calling. Resources mentioned: 5Q by Alan Hirsch, Primal Fire by Neil Cole, and Creating a Missional Culture by J.R Woodward New episodes every Wednesday! The Microchurches podcast is presented by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Underground Network⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, a network of microchurches and missionaries in the Tampa Bay area. We exist to inspire, engage, connect and empower missional people, churches and networks. If you have enjoyed or benefited from this podcast and/or other Underground resources and would like to support, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠click here to give⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Today, we continue part two of our conversation with author, Mark Nelson, who along with Alan Hirsch wrote the influential book, Reframation: Seeing God, People, and Mission Through Reenchanted Frames.If you could see the copy of my book, you would instantly recognize the profound effect it is having on my life and work by all the highlights and markings. Go behind the scenes as Mark shares profound insights, as well as his own personal discoveries, regarding the book and the creative process behind it. Prepare to be transformed as you gain a fresh perspective on Jesus, comprehending the vastness of His being and the intimacy of His presence in your own life, all while understanding how our actions ripple outward and influence others, if we are paying attention. Please run to Amazon and get your own copy. We'd love to hear your thoughts at AmplifyPeace.com.https://a.co/d/hPeyGHk

Some churches like to say they welcome everyone, but the truth is that such a Christian community is complicated. In this insightful discussion with real-world practitioners Deb Hirsch and Luke Edwards, you'll hear about what it is like to build a community where committed Christians and those exploring their faith can thrive together.Deb Hirsch is a speaker, church leader, and writer who has led churches in both Australia and Los Angeles. She is one of the founders of Forge Mission Training Network and is a member of the Forge America national team. She also serves as a board member for Missio Alliance and was part of the leadership team of Christian Associates, a church planting movement in Europe, North & South America. She is the co-author (with Alan Hirsch) of Untamed: Reactivating a Missional Form of Discipleship, and her book Redeeming Sex reflects her own journey and attempts to bring new conversations about sexuality into the context of the church. Deb has been involved in social work, community development and as a trained counselor has worked in the field of sexuality for over twenty-five years. She and her husband live in community with others in Los Angeles.Luke Edwards is the Associate Director of Church Development for the Western North Carolina Conference of the United Methodist Church and a trainer for Fresh Expressions US. He was the founding pastor of King Street Church, a network of fresh expressions in Boone, NC. Participating in local, regional, and national levels of the Fresh Expressions movement has given Luke a unique perspective into the future of the mainline church in a post-Christian society.

Cory and Brian take some time this week to respond to the last two weeks of interviews with Alan Hirsch. While Alan's words have deeply shaped our movement, we recognize that sometimes interviews like the last two weeks might feel more theoretical than practical for the everyday leader. This is what we want to address this week. How do the seven marks of movement impact the ordinary disciple-maker? 

Cory interviews Alan Hirsch, one of our heroes in the missional movement. Alan Hirsch is one of the founders of Movement Leaders Collective, as well as founding the Forge Mission Training Network and 5QCollective. Known for his innovative approach to mission and thought-leadership, Alan is highly sought after movement strategist for leaders, churches and denominations across the Western world. He is the author of numerous award winning books including The Forgotten Ways, 5Q, ReJesus, The Shaping of Things to Come, and The Permanent Revolution. In this episode, we focus more on the 7 Marks of Movement. 

Cory interviews Alan Hirsch, one of our heroes in the missional movement. Alan Hirsch is one of the founders of Movement Leaders Collective, as well as founding the Forge Mission Training Network and 5QCollective. Known for his innovative approach to mission and thought-leadership, Alan is highly sought after movement strategist for leaders, churches and denominations across the Western world. He is the author of numerous award winning books including The Forgotten Ways, 5Q, ReJesus, The Shaping of Things to Come, and The Permanent Revolution. The first episode focuses more on the mDNA that you can explore more in The Forgotten ways.  "If you don't pay attention to structure, it will pay attention to you." - Alan Hirsch 

In his book, “The Starfish & the Spirit,” Alan Hirsch talks about the importance for missional movements to operate in a chaordic way. Today, we discuss what chaordic movements are and why this is vital for true multiplication movements. 

Apr 23, 2023Title: The Church That BlessesText: Acts 2:42-47 CSB“That evening I recognized the importance of blessing and being blessed...We all need ongoing blessings that allow us to hear in an ever-new way that we belong to a loving God who will never leave us alone, but will always remind that we are guided by his love on every step of our lives.”Henri Nouwen, Life of the Beloved (New York: Crossroad, 1992), 69-72.Bless RhythmsB. begin in prayerL. listen and engage E. eatS. serveS. share your storyLoneliness1. In 2003, UCLA researchers studied the physical effects of loneliness on the brain and they discovered being excluded proved the same sort of reaction in the brain that physical pain might cause.2. Time Magazine recently called loneliness the next great health epidemic on par with obesity and substance abuse.3. In a recent study sponsored by an insurance company Cigna, they realized being lonely caused more inflammation and higher levels of stress. Loneliness increases the risk of premature death by 30%, making it as dangerous as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. People without meaningful connections experience disrupted sleep patterns, altered immune systems. Do you know who they discovered experiences the highest levels of loneliness? 18-24 year olds. They concluded that loneliness is making us sick.Meal Sharing-Sixty years ago the average dinnertime was 90 minutes; today it is less than twelve minutes.-The #1 factor for parents raising kids who drug-free, healthy, intelligent, and kind human beings?-The #1 shaper of vocabulary in younger children?-The #1 predictor of future academic success for elementary school children?-One of the best safeguards against obesity, eating disorders? -The variable most associated with lower incidence of depressive and suicidal thought among 11-18 year old's? *(Maral Eisenberg, “Correlations Between Family Meals and Psychological Well-Being,” JAMA Pediatrics)● In Luke 5, Jesus eats with tax collectors and sinners at the home of Levi (5:29-32).● In Luke 7, Jesus is anointed by a woman in the home of Simon the Pharisee during a meal (7:36-50).● In Luke 9, Jesus feeds the five thousand (9:10-36).● In Luke 10, Jesus eats in the home of Mary and Martha (10:25-42).● In Luke 14, Jesus shares about the parable of the large banquet in whichHe urges people to invite the poor rather than their friends (14:7-24).● In Luke 22, we read the account of the Last Supper (22:14-23). “Sharing meals together is one of the most sacred practices we can engage in as believers...If every Christian family regularly invited a stranger or a poor person into the home for a meal once a week, we would literally change the world by eating.” —Alan Hirsch and Lance Ford, Right Here, Right Now  Serve“'Atheism [I.e. the Christian faith!] has been specially advancedthrough the loving service rendered to strangers, and through their care for the burial of the dead. It is a scandal that there is not a single Jew who is a beggar, and that the godless Galileans care not only for their own poor but for ours as well; while those who belong to us look in vain for the help that we should render them.”*The Roman Emperor Julian, fourth cent

"What would you do in your church if they told you they wouldn't pay you? I think it would make you think differently about your call, your programs, your strategy, and your tactics." In today's episode of The City Network Podcast, Dave Ferguson talks with Robert on escaping the paradigms of large scale church planting, in order to live into Jesus' "radical genius." They talk about what it looks like to revamp evangelism, Dave's work with Exponential and New Thing Network, and the 4 R's of church planting: relationship, reproducing, residency and resources. The conversation covers church planting in the context of reaching the next generation, church health, and warning signs to pay attention to when planting a church.Dave Ferguson is the lead pastor of Community Christian Church, a multi-expression missional community that is passionate about “helping people find their way back to God.” Community has grown from a few college friends to reaching thousands of people in Chicagoland and around the world. Dave also provides visionary leadership for the international church-planting movement NewThing and is the CEO of the Exponential conference. He is an award-winning author of books that include The Big Idea, Exponential, On The Verge, Finding Your Way Back To God, Starting Over, Hero Maker and most recently B.L.E.S.S. 5 Everyday Ways to Love Your Neighbor and Change the World. Dave and his best friend Sue have three terrific adult kids - Amy, Josh and Caleb. Feel free to email him with questions, ideas, feedback or introductions at daveferguson@exponential.org Find more from Dave on his website: daveferguson.org, or on twitter: @daveferguson and instagram: @fergusondave.Find more from The City Network at thecitynetwork.org, or follow us on Instagram @thecitynetwork, and Facebook at City Network.Here are some resources and references mentioned in the episode: On the Verge, Alan Hirsch and Dave Ferguson New Thing Network The Movement SystemA Non-Anxious Presence, Mark Sayers

In this unique episode of Gospelbound, pastor Jim Davis from Orlando Grace Church invites Collin Hansen into the interview spotlight to go behind the scenes of writing Timothy Keller: His Spiritual and Intellectual Formation.Jim Davis says, "Five hundred years from now, maybe two pastors or theologians will be remembered. I believe that Tim Keller will be one of them."Keller's influence comes from his sermons, books, and teaching as well as founding Redeemer Presbyterian Church, The Gospel Coalition, and Redeemer City to City. The book traces this influence back to the people and ideas that have shaped Keller. Jim Davis asked Collin Hansen how Tim Keller has influenced his life and ministry, the most surprising things Hansen discovered as he researched and wrote the book, Keller's legacy 100 years from now, and more.When you pre-order Timothy Keller: His Spiritual and Intellectual Formation, you'll receive:Exclusive video (more than 120 minutes) with accompanying 65-page ebook reflecting on key themes in Tim Keller's Center Church. Contributors include Michael Horton, Alan Hirsch, and Gabriel Salguero, all in conversation with Tim Keller.The 10 Most Important Christian Books Written within My Lifetime, a list by Tim KellerThe Essential Tim Keller: Recommended Reading, a list by Collin HansenThe first three chapters of Timothy Keller: His Spiritual and Intellectual Formation (book and audiobook)An invitation to a virtual book discussion and Q&A with Collin Hansen (February 2023)Learn more and submit your pre-order to download this bonus content at TimothyKellerBook.com.