Podcast appearances and mentions of brandi miller

In this episode Brandi is joined by Jarrod McKenna to lay a primer foundation about authoritarianism and fascism in the Christian worldview and what we can do to come back to the way of Jesus. You can find Jarrod's work here and learn more about God 's Story Told By God's Children here!If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology.If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Tracey Gee to talk about the necessity of knowing our desires in the midst of empire. They talk about how unlearning the theology and practices that many of our communities offered us might help us to be more healthy, free, and connected in the face of the powers and tools of empire. You can find Tracey's work here and get the book wherever books are sold!If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology.If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by poet and creative David Gate to talk about evangelism and the ways the modern western approaches to it prime Christians toward colonialism, accepting propaganda, and politically violent ideology and practice. You can find David's work at the link above and his substack here!If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology.If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode of The Intentional Agribusiness Leader Podcast, host Mark Jewell sits down with Brandi Miller, President & CEO of the Kansas Co-op Council and Co-founder of Tritica Biosciences. Brandi shares her insights on intentional leadership, her passion for supporting co-ops and innovation in agriculture, and the journey of stepping into her family business. This episode is packed with actionable advice on prioritizing relationships, navigating legislative challenges, and building capacity for success in agri-business.Key Takeaways:Intentional Leadership Defined:For Brandi, being intentional means leaning in, putting away distractions, asking thoughtful questions, and focusing on purposeful action rather than just staying busy.The Kansas Co-op Council's Mission:Brandi outlines the Council's three key roles:Advocacy: Protecting cooperative interests and navigating legislative challenges like urban migration and water issues.Education: Focusing on capacity building for directors while offering high-level employee training.Public Relations: Highlighting the critical role of co-ops in Kansas agriculture.Leadership in Action:Brandi highlights the importance of understanding what employees truly need from their roles, whether it's flexibility, benefits, or professional growth opportunities.The shift from property tax concerns to labor shortages post-COVID has driven innovative solutions for talent retention in agriculture.Innovation at Tritica Biosciences:Brandi and her husband are working to revolutionize grain milling through a patented process that opens new doors for wheat usage, especially in cell-free protein synthesis. Their journey into business ownership together underscores the value of complementing each other's strengths.Overcoming Challenges:Brandi candidly shares her ongoing battle with public speaking, a hurdle she has faced through consistent practice and seeking opportunities to improve.Learning piano as an adult serves as an inspiring personal example of embracing discomfort to grow.Notable Quotes:“Intentionality is about doing things with purpose, not just doing them because you've always done them.” – Brandi Miller“Organizations that thrive understand what their employees truly need, whether it's flexibility, time off, or competitive benefits.” – Brandi Miller“Sometimes the greatest lessons come in the rearview mirror, from leaders you didn't fully appreciate in the moment.” – Brandi Miller“We shouldn't measure our worth by how busy we are. Being efficient and effective is where the real value lies.” – Brandi MillerLoved this episode? Share it with your network and let us know your biggest takeaway. Don't forget to subscribe for more actionable insights from leaders across the agribusiness industry.

Christina White was missing for four years before the first big clues emerged into her disappearance that would raise questions about whether there was a serial killer operating in the Lewis-Clark Valley and beyond. In this episode, with Allison Dickson of Vintage Villains, we explore Christina's disappearance, a 1963 murder of an 8-year-old in Chicago, a mysterious attempted break-in at a mortuary holding the body of a 17-year-old girl in California, the murder of a 22-year-old University of Idaho student in Clarkston, Washington, the disappearances three people from the Lewiston Civic Theatre, the death ruled a 27-year-old suicide, the drowning of a 16-year-old girl in North Carolina and the man closely connected to them all.Contact me at silverliningshandbookpod@gmail.com.Check out the Silver Linings Handbook website at:https://silverliningshandbook.com/Check out our Patreon to support the show at:https://ww.patreon.com/thesilverliningshandbookJoin our Facebook Group at:https://www.facebook.com/groups/1361159947820623Visit the Silver Linings Handbook store to support the podcast at:https://www.bonfire.com/store/the-silver-linings-handbook-podcast-store/The Silver Linings Handbook is a production of BlueSky Studios LLC.See the Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and the California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In the episode Brandi is joined by Hailey Mitsui of Soul Reparations to talk about how we can sustain and give attention the well-being of our souls in the midst of ever-loudening imperial realities.OUR 2024 ADVENT DEVOTIONAL ALL OF US, TOGETHER: NAVIGATING ADVENT UNDER THE WEIGHT OF EMPIRE  IS NOW LIVE. You can get a copy at https://www.reclaimingmytheology.org/shop .You can find Hailey's personal work and practice here and can sign up to either recieve of donate toward Soul Reparations spiritual direction services here!  If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology.If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi sits down with activist Cassie Chee to talk about how state violence is developed, normalized, and can be resisted in the Christian imagination and in our politics. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology.If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by author and storyteller Mariko Clark to talk about how we learn empire and the development of imperial values in how we raise our children and really, how we learn as adults what was never explicitly framed for us. They talk about how the bible is used as a tool to entrench children's thinking into the ways of empire and some of the ways that we can do differently. In this episode they mention D.L. and Krispin Mayfields "Strongwilled" project which you can find here. If you want so get the Book of Belonging for yourself, it is available here or wherever you get your books! You can find their accompanying substack here. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology.If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Barnabas Lin to talk about messiahs, kings, and rulers. They discuss the many ways that reliance on so-called sovereign leaders to save them has led not only to idolatry and dysfunction, but also greater enmeshment in systems that oppress and play God. Barnabas will be facilitating Oriented to Love: A Dialogue about Sexual and Gender Diversity in the Church with Christians for Social Action next spring and you can learn more about how to participate here! If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology.If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. https://christiansforsocialaction.org/event/oriented-to-love-bipoc-only-dialogue/https://christiansforsocialaction.org/Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this inaugural episode of Reclaiming [our] Theology from Empire, Brandi is joined by Scott Hall of White People Work to talk about the basics of empire in and out of scripture. This episode was recorded a few months before the 2024 U.S. General Election, so there is conversation about the impact of empire on politics in real time as well as at a more micro/individual level. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Rated explicit for the use of 2 strong words (lol)Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

Brandi Miller is the President of Black Women for Healthy Living. This is a nonprofit organization in Des Moines that addresses health disparities among Black women. Their mission is to advocate, empower, and provide resources for Black women's holistic health. The organization was inspired by the founder's experience with cycling and the need for safe spaces for Black women. They aim to prioritize self-care and mental, physical, spiritual, and financial health.  The organization is holding their second annual Health Conference, themed “Black Women, Protect Your Heart” on Saturday, August 17th, 2024 at Grandview University. This is a free event and will feature a keynote speech from Dr. Angela L. Walker-Franklin, the President of Des Moines University.  Learn More about the BW4HL Health Conference: https://bw4hl.org/conference/ Where to find Black Women 4 Healthy Living: Website: www.b24hl.org  Facebook: Black Women 4 Healthy Living Instagram: @bw4hl2020 Want More Black. Girl. Iowa.? Website: www.blackgirliowa.com Instagram: @black.girl.iowa

Brandi Miller preaches from the creation narrative, challenging interpretations of creation rooted in rigidity and hierarchy and inviting us to explore the "negative space" in the story. How might a fuller picture of the world God is creating invite us into greater expansiveness, creativity, and freedom?

This episode, Jonathan and Sy talk with the incredible Brandi Miller about:-        How faith and churches change when we engage with the political idolatry of the American church-        The spiritual and political fruit of the MAGA movement-        The good things people still want and can find in Jesus and Christian community amidst all the nonsense-        Developing inner lives that can sustain political engagement and community building-        Plus, Jonathan and Sy discuss some fascinating numbers about the political views and voting patterns of the average Black Christian versus the average overall DemocratMentioned in the Episode-            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith-            Brandi's podcast, Reclaiming My Theology-            Her other show, The Quest Church Podcast-            The article on Black, Christian political beliefs and votingCredits-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Brandi Miller: God made people in God's own image, and people's job is not to conform into your pastor's version of following Jesus. It's to conform more into the likeness of Jesus as you become more yourself. And so instead of going to a pastor who is essentially saying, “Follow me as I follow Jesus,” you say, “We're following Jesus, and you're gonna discover who you are along the way.”[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. We have a fantastic show for you today. We are talking all about church and politics with the great Brandi Miller, who many of you know. And we're doing our new segment, Which Tab Is Still Open?, diving deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week, a closer look at the political beliefs of the average Black Christian versus the average Democrat. If you think those are pretty much the same, you've got stuff to learn [laughter]. So stay tuned.Sy Hoekstra: Brandi Miller is the host of the podcast, Reclaiming My Theology. As she calls it, a space to take our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. She's also now newly the host of the Quest Church Podcast, which is unsurprisingly for Quest Church in Seattle [laughs], where Brandi has the staff position of Chief Storyteller. Before that she was a justice program director with a college ministry working at the intersection of faith, justice, and politics. If you know Brandi, I don't have to convince you that this is a good conversation. If you don't, just, you need to get to know her, so [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, yes, yes.Sy Hoekstra: Get ready for this one.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, we talked to her about her perspective on evangelical politics, how she sees people's faith changing as they engage with the American church's idolatry, and what Jesus has to offer as a vision for us in this political landscape. There is a lot in the episode, I hope you're ready. Her article in our anthology was called, “Left Behind: What American Evangelicalism Has Lost and Needs to Find.” And of course, you can get the anthology at keepingthefaithbook.com.Sy Hoekstra: And before we get started, just a reminder that we have been telling everyone we need your subscriptions [laughter], please. The best way, if you are into what we do, helping people try and leave the idols of White America and seek Jesus through this media and you want to help us build something that can do that in an effective and far reaching way to people, we need your support. We have been doing this as a side gig for a lot of time. For a long time it's been me and Jonathan in our rooms with laptops trying to make things work, and they have worked [laughs]. But if you wanna see that stuff grow and you wanna see this stuff continue for a long time into the future, we really do need your support.So go to KTFPress.com, please become a paid subscriber. Get access to all the bonus episodes of this show. Get access to our monthly subscriber chats that we're starting, get access to comments on our posts and support everything we do centering and elevating marginalized voices. If you cannot afford a subscription, like if money's the only barrier, please just write to us, info@ktfpress.com, and we will give you a free or discounted subscription. Whatever you ask for, no questions asked. We want everyone to have access to all the stuff that we're putting out, but if you can afford it, we really, really want the support.Actually, one of the things that you'll be supporting now is that our newsletter is free. So anybody can go to KTFPress.com, sign up for the free mailing list. You get news about KTF press, you get all kinds of stuff like that, but you also get recommendations from us every week that are things that we think will be helpful in your political education and discipleship. And you will also get things from us that we think are helpful in staying grounded and hopeful in the midst of all of the difficult issues that we are all seeing in our news feeds and in our politics and everywhere else and in our churches. So please, KTFPress.com, become a paid subscriber. Thank you so much in advance.Jonathan Walton: Yep. Thanks in advance, and here is the interview with Brandi.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Brandi, thank you so, so much for joining us on Shake the Dust. We really appreciate it.Brandi Miller: Of course. Glad to be here. Always glad to get to spend time with you all, so.How Does Faith Change When We Engage with The Idolatry of the American Church?Making Our Political Theology Accessible to EveryoneJonathan Walton: Yeah, I mean, now you wrote this bomb essay. Okay. And so something that you said, which [laughs] is still true in 2024: " The result of the syncretism of American religion, propaganda-based iconography and political power is cultish religiosity centered on Donald Trump as God's Messiah sent to buttress patriotism, political power, and global dominance. Regardless of his lack of demonstrable Christ-likeness in his politics, it is clear that pandering to his constituents' desire for Christianized power in the United States has framed him as the president who will ‘bring America back to God.' This is a trade-off: Christian practice and the way of Jesus for American Christian power and utopianism.” End quote.Monstrous, amazing text, right? [laughter] Now, after you wrote this, you became a staff member at a church, right?Brandi Miller: Mm-hmm.Jonathan Walton: And you have a large community of people following and engaging with you online. And as you try to teach and disciple people out of this syncretism slash nonsense, how have you seen their faith change?Brandi Miller: Well, one thing I'll say is something that's changed about myself first, because even as I hear back my own words, I can hear how inaccessible they are to a common regular person. Like how many four to six-syllable words can I use to say Donald Trump does not look like Jesus, and that does not matter to most Christians who follow White American religion. That is what I was trying to say, that there is a propaganda based way of doing religion that has indoctrinated a ton of us into a traumatic type of spirituality that we cannot hold. And so I think even a critique of myself in a way that I've changed is trying to ask, how do I take what is a political reality rooted in a current religious moment and strip it down in a way that a regular person can understand?Because if I am theologizing people out of their own experiences or trying to pull them out of a demonstrably terrible politic and they can't understand where we're going, then that's on me. And so I think that part of my trying to engage with a lot of this stuff has been my own change around how I engage with it so that people who are trying to follow Jesus outside of this kind of syncretism with American nationalism can actually come along.When People See the Idolatry, Staying in Church Community Is HardBrandi Miller: That being said, I think that, I mean, it's been kind of bleak honestly. Like I think that the church that I work at is a church that is people's last stop on their way out of Christianity specifically for these issues. Because they can see the ways that American politics have more say in the lives of people who identify as Christian than Jesus does.And when that is the case, it is really hard to be a part of a Jesus community. And so what I'm seeing a lot is people trying to figure out, can I actually trust community as I follow Jesus? And a lot of people can't. And it makes sense to me, and they leave. But what ends up happening is that people are like, “Well, I can follow Jesus outside of the church,” and I actually believe that some people can do that. But I think because community is at the core of following Jesus, when you leave in those contexts without any kind of community to buttress your faith at all, it's really, really hard to, with integrity, continue to live out those values, and it's really easy to become increasingly cynical in the media ecosystem that we have.And so I don't really know what to tell people pastorally, right? Because there are many ways that I could say, “No, no, no, just come back to the church,” but the church isn't trustworthy. And I can say, “No, go on your own,” but with a lack of community, a lot of the faith stuff falls apart because it's meant to be done together in a non-westernized religious context. And so I'm finding that to be a pretty sad and frustrating space to occupy. So I think that'd be my first bid.What People Can Still Get from Church Community Even after Seeing the IdolatryJonathan Walton: I have so many thoughts, but I'm going to let Sy ask his question.Sy Hoekstra: No, no, no, go for it, Jonathan. We have time.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] So in the midst of that, this new like re-imagining of what community would look like, independent of the colonized faith, what we call it at KTF, White American folk religion, what I call it in Twelve Lies, are there any fireworks of imagination that have happened that you're like, “Oh, that looks nice. That might be something that is hopeful,” for a group of people who are on this subway stop at the end of the line?Brandi Miller: Well, I mean, I think that people still want all the good stuff, right? I think people want connection and community and gentleness and kindness and meekness and self-control and the fruit of the spirit, and the beatitudes. I think people still want the Jesus stuff. People want to live in an accessible and just world where people can be fully themselves, where the image of God in me meets the image of God in you, and somehow in that magic we're transformed. I think people still want that, and I think when people come and get a taste of that, it's really, really beautiful. Because what it results in really is friendship and friendship results in systems change and system change results in world change and political change.Jonathan Walton: Right, right, right.Brandi Miller: And so, I think that what I've seen happen is a lot of progressive spaces have done one of two things. One, said like, well, the individual transformation doesn't matter. And I'm like, that's actually not true. The health of the individual and the health of the system are always a cycle that are moving over and over and over again. And so we're like, “Well, F individual transformation and let's just like go do the system change.” And I'm like, yeah, but if like people don't change, then they're not gonna be alongside you as you change the systems and not understand why the systems change would be good for them. And I think churches do that too.Jonathan Walton: Right?Brandi Miller: So I think a lot of progressive media culture does that on one side, and then the other side uses all of this abstraction to describe what the world looks like when it changes, which is, I don't know, right now sounds like the end of postmodern empire. Like we're in empire collapse right now. And I'm like, “No one knows what that means.” Most normal average people do not know what it means. So they're like, “Let's find creative ways to engage post empire collapse.” And I'm like, can you just say that the United States is participating in all kinds of evil, and when our comeuppance happens, it's going to result in a completely different societal structure that we are not ready for.And so, what I'm always looking for are glimpses of what could life look like after that? Which I think is what you're asking. And a lot of that looks like people choosing to care for each other well to build more simple lives rather than more complicated ones, to choose work that isn't their entire identity and allowing themselves to explore who they are outside of the kind of enculturation that happens when we don't have a life outside of that. And that is what I've seen change people's politics. It's not like having a fancy activist job. It's seeing how your neighbors are suffering and doing something about that together, or getting a measure on a ballot that changes things for folks.And so I think that I'm seeing glimpses of people entering into more embodied, simple space that is actually transformative and actually grounding and does a lot to downshift some of our very present anxiety. And I think that's been really good. And so I think there's some structural and systemic things I've seen too, but a lot of the stuff that I'm seeing is people trying to make sense of this abstracted language and say, what does this actually mean for my life in real time, and how can that be good?The Fruit of the MAGA MovementSy Hoekstra: One thread there that kind of leads into my next question is, you said that the idea that your church is the last stop on a lot of people's road out of Christianity, when I was a kid, I would, in evangelical churches, I would hear the sentiment a lot that—I would hear that sentiment a lot actually. I would hear like, “Oh, when you go to a progressive church, that's just, you're just on your way out [laughs], so don't ever go there.” That was the kind of, that was the warning, right?Brandi Miller: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But basically, what I hear you saying is the reason that it's their last stop or the reason that they're on their way out is not because of they've lost their way or a lack of integrity, they don't really care about Jesus, whatever. They actually care about Jesus maybe more than the places that they left, and got so hurt as a result that that's why they're on their way out. And that's, I think that's a reality that Jonathan and I see a lot too, and I just wanted to point that out to people. But also this kind of gets a little bit into what my next question was, which I also had a big long quote here, but I'll just summarize [laughs] because Jonathan already read a big long quote [laughter].Jonathan Walton: I did.Sy Hoekstra: You basically talked about how there are a lot of masks that evangelicals wear to cover their support for Donald Trump's racism. So it's like the sanctity of life or pro-gun politics or pro-Israel politics. And that it basically that the result of that is you're not talking about the racism of Donald Trump, you're talking to people about those masks and saying, “If you're not willing to wear this mask, then basically you're an enemy to be negated because you're a baby killer, or you're an anti-Semite” or whatever it is. But I wonder if four years on having seen so much more of the fruit of the MAGA movement, if there's anything that you would kind of add on to this description of how it operates.Shifting Acceptable Political Discourse Far to the RightBrandi Miller: Yeah. So one of the main things I think about right now is the Overton window. So for folks who aren't familiar with the Overton window, it's essentially the range of acceptable political thought from left to right. And so there is an acceptable range of political thought, I'm doing some writing and thinking about this right now, but that what is considered far on the left and far on the right changes as that window shifts farther left or right. And what we've seen in the last four years is the Overton window shift so far to the right, that stuff that would've been considered so extreme, so outlandish, so problematic as to not be acceptable is now mainstream.So when George Santos can have an entire political campaign and multiple years of being in the public spotlight, and everyone be like, “Ah, this is just kind of like normal run-of-the-mill American politics,” that's wild.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah [laughs].Brandi Miller: When Donald Trump can have dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of criminal, like of criminal… or like he has so many, so many things that are happening right now at felony levels, and we're like, “Oh, I mean, he's just like working through it.” That is so wild to me, that the Overton window has shifted so far to the right that Marjorie Taylor Greene can do every bit of chaos that she's doing. That Mike Johnson is considered a normal speaker of the house.Jonathan Walton: That is, ugh… [laughs].Brandi Miller: We've moved so far right, that now what used to be considered moderate is considered hyper progressive. That being like, hey, like… maybe we should give people… that we've actually reversed, like with Roe v. Wade, we've reversed rights for people and we consider that normal. Like the Overton window has shifted so aggressively to the right that it is so, so damaging. And that has just continued over the last four years.Shifting Acceptable Religious Thought Far to the RightBrandi Miller: The thing I am observing and doing a lot of work around right now is what does it mean when the Christian range of political or range of acceptable religious thought also shifts to the right? And so I've been asking the question, what is that?What we're talking about really is orthodoxy. We're saying there is this range of historically acceptable Christian thought, but when that gets chain linked to the Overton window and shifted to the right, the way of Jesus that gets to be considered left or moderate or something becomes completely unidentifiable to most Christians. And when that happens, the only response that we have in those super conservative spaces or that have moved to the right that much is to parrot political actors and call it holiness. And that is what I'm most concerned with and what I'm seeing most right now, is that people can't even have conversations because of those things like, yeah, you're an anti-Semite or you're a baby killer, or whatever.You can't even have the conversations about why that ideology became important to someone, because even questioning the ideology itself or that indoctrination feels like it's a deviation from holiness because your religion is so connected to nationalism that to separate those feels like sin.Sy Hoekstra: It's almost, it's like the way that you might get a question shut down in church because if of something you're asking about some orthodox doctrine or whatever, like expressing a doubt of some kind.Brandi Miller: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: You're saying that's not just religious anymore basically. That is political. Or the politic—because the religious and the political are so closely linked that your political doubt is religious doubt almost.Brandi Miller: Yes. Yes, most certainly. Connected to God's connection to a nation.What Is the Good That All the Idolatry Is Overshadowing?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I got in this conversation with a… Sometimes I opt into the online debates to get fodder for more posts [Sy laughs]. And I asked someone what they meant by Orthodox. They were saying “Israel is God's nation. The United States should support Israel because we are also God's nation, we're mirror countries of each other. This is an orthodox view.”Sy Hoekstra: Whoa.Jonathan Walton: They had obviously no, like no image or thought about the non-evangelical 200-year-old, 50-year-old, 25-year, 2-year-old church that they were in [laughter], you know? But all that to say, as you talk about Jesus on your show, talk about Jesus in your writing, talk about Jesus in your church, talk about Jesus with us. We're constantly trying to get people to look at the Jesus of Nazareth and not the Jesus of nationalism. Right? What would you say in this era, like with the church and politics, what value do you think Jesus's teaching, Jesus's witness, his life, death, resurrection has to offer us this election season? And what is the good that all the syncretism that we're talking about is just completely overshadowing?Following Jesus Helps us Find Ourselves and Resist Structures That Demand ConformityBrandi Miller: Well, right. The Jesus story is a continuation of the Hebrew story, and that story is centered on a God who cares about righteousness. And righteousness is not adherence to political doctrine, it's right living in harmony and wellbeing with other folks. Dr. Randy Woodley talks about shalom in the community of creation and that you know that the world is well when the marginalized say so. And the Hebrew scriptures follow that journey really, really closely. Even if the people fail in it, God's calls stay consistent to make sure that the orphan and the widow and the foreigner are cared for. And that we know that a whole community is healthy and well and living rightly when that's the case. And Jesus lives out that same story.And part of that story requires that people are given the chance to be themselves. That if we believe in this kind of, there's a lot that I do not believe about how we extrapolate Genesis one and two, but I think one of the core things is that like God made people in God's own image, and people's job is not to conform into your pastor's version of following Jesus. It's to conform more into the likeness of Jesus as you become more yourself. And so instead of going to a pastor and essentially saying, ‘Follow me as I follow Jesus,” we say, “We're following Jesus and you're gonna discover who you are along the way.” And that is what Jesus does with his disciples. Right? Jesus invites a diverse group of wackadoodle dudes to come and be themselves [Jonathan laughs]. And they change a lot. They change a lot, but they don't change away from themselves, which I think we see in the story of Peter, right? Peter's a fisherman at the beginning and he's a fisherman at the end. And the way in which he's a fisherman is really different, but he is still at his core in some ways who he is. And I know there's some conflation with vocational and whatever, but there are ways that people are, that people who were zealous in the beginning are zealous, but in a more refined way at the end. People who were engaging with the people in a particular way are doing so less judgmentally at the end.So I think there's a way that there is an invitation to become fully ourselves that we do not get in church spaces because we're told that sanctification or that honoring the death and resurrection of Jesus is to become less like yourself. It's to do this… I think we just take the John the Baptizer quote, “more of him, less of me” out of context when you're like… y'all, the reason he's saying that is because they think he's the Messiah and he needs to make some stuff really clear. He's not saying, I need to become less of myself. John needs to become more and more of himself in order to do what Jesus has invited him to do.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Brandi Miller: And so, because in the church we often say, let's collapse our identities into one social, political and religious identity, people lose themselves. And so I think part of the invitation and the good that we offer to people is that you get to be yourself. And that justice work, this other side of the coin in the Hebrews text around justice and righteousness is making things right when righteousness, when people's ability to live fully as themselves to live original blessing is not in place. And so I think that there's an invitation in the way of Jesus to live fully as ourselves and to make right the spaces where people are not offered space to live the life that is abundant.Jonathan Walton: May it be so in churches and spaces this fall [laughs] where that could be extrapolated. And as you were talking, I was just like, yeah, “God loves you,” should not be a controversial statement.Brandi Miller: Right…. Woof…Jonathan Walton: Right? Like it shouldn't [laughs].How Has Brandi's Calling Changed around Political Engagement?Sy Hoekstra: Alright. So, on your show, you're often talking about theology and culture. You obviously have a ton to say about politics though, and I've heard you say on the show you'd be kind of more interested in getting into that somehow at some point in your life. And you took a break from the show recently. Basically, you're in the middle of a season on purity culture, and you kind of took a break from the show because you felt some tension between talking about theology and church culture and purity culture with everything that's going on in Gaza. And I'm just wondering how the last four years have affected your sense of calling or your desire to engage politically from someone who has largely played a pastoral role.Helping People Develop Inner Lives that Can Sustain Political EngagementBrandi Miller: Yeah. Some of what I'm learning is that regardless of whether there's an urgent political moment that people are still entering into these spaces in a lot of different ways. And so me stopping the podcast because of everything happening in Gaza and trying to figure out how to respond wasn't actually as helpful as I had hoped it would've been. It didn't make more space for people, it just disengaged people from one of the only spaces that they're engaging with religion at all. And so pastorally, I think what I ended up doing was leaving people behind. And I didn't, I think I was so at that point unsure of how to respond to what was happening in Gaza and didn't know what my role would be, and felt like as a person who's, it's a little bit like one of my Jewish friends was talking about the parable of the virgins and the oil.Some of us just showed up really late to this party, and we know so little, we've showed up so late, that it feels pretty impossible to show up effectively. And so I was trying to be responsible with what I did and did not know about Israel, Palestine, Gaza, all of that. Instead of just saying what I could unequivocally say, which is that violence in all forms, particularly genocide, is an egregious violence against God, against people and needs to be dealt with aggressively. Like, I can say that without any… we can say, “Free Palestine,” because that is an easy thing to, it's pretty easy for me to say, to agree with that idea. What I did though in being like, oh, purity culture isn't connected, was to say that people have on-ramps to these kinds of justice expressions that are far away.And maybe it's like [laughs], I hate to use this metaphor, but like, or parallelism rather. Yeah, I hate to use this parallelism, but when I think about how QAnon feeds into conspiracy theories, I think there's a lot of ways that progressive Christianity can feed people toward better, more just politics. And so when I take away the on-ramps, I take away people's opportunity to enter into a more just spirituality. And so me choosing to not talk about sex for four weeks or whatever, for me it felt like it was a solidarity practice, but it really was just cutting off people from a community that they cared about. So I think I would say that that was like one thing that I'm learning.And that is, and I think that what I'm trying to figure out is, as a person who primarily plays a pastoral function, what does it mean to invite people into a discipleship that can hold the politics that they're engaging with? Because one of the things I learned from 2016 was that many of us had a ton of passion, a ton of anxiety, a lack of knowledge, and we weren't able to hold onto the activism at the level that we held it during Black Lives Matter. We just weren't able to do it. And so, I think I'm trying to ask how do you build people's inner lives and community orientations in such a way that we can actually hold the political movements that we want to see happen?So how do we become community organizers locally and nationally when our inner lives aren't able to hold even the basics of our day-to-day lives? And that's not a knock on anyone, it's just a, we don't know how to cope. We don't know how to be in therapy. We don't know how to ask good questions about our lives. And so I think that I'm still asking the question, what is the role of the pastoral in the political, when most of my examples of the pastoral and the political is just telling people how to vote once every four years indirectly so you don't lose your funding, and nothing else otherwise.Helping People Learn and Grow through Curiosity and Questioning AssumptionsJonathan Walton: Yeah. I care a little bit about that, the inner life, peace [laughter]. I write, you know, I have a whole thing about that. So as you're talking, something I feel like I've run into is, I had a conversation with someone and they said to me, “The church discriminates against queer people? What do you mean?” And I looked at them and I was like, they were not being facetious, they were not joking. And like, and so I watched this train wreck happen in her brain, right? Where it's like, so then I just said, “You know, let's just talk about conversion therapy.” I said, “Let's just start there…” UN resolutions that say this is to—like all she, you could see it on her face she's like, like she did not know.And so I watched it happen and couldn't stop it. So Brandi, when someone is sitting across from you and you see this lack of knowledge and the capacity to harm. Right? So there's this lack of knowledge, but they're gonna say the homophobic terrible thing whenever somebody asks them, and you are the pastoral person in residence with them. What habits, practices, tactics do you employ not to destroy them, like intellectually? How do you not reduce them to their ideas? How do you love them and meet them where they're at so that they will be at church next week? They will be, like all those kinds of things, to stay on the journey with you.Brandi Miller: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And stop hurting people.Jonathan Walton: And yeah, and stop hurting people.Brandi Miller: Yes. Yeah, I mean, you become a master of caveats, and that's the easy thing. The hard thing is to believe that people are trying their best. I think that most people, and I'm really learning this and trying to learn this in the best ways I can right now, is that if you're not just like on the internet where I know people are not trying to do their best, they're just being mean, like in real life with people who are sitting, who you don't have to question whether they're a bot or not, people are trying to do the best they can and the best they can might be terrible. And that's okay, because when people are trying to do the best that they can, and when people are given the benefit of a doubt, they are more open to engaging with things that are embarrassing or challenging or confusing.And so a lot of what I do is ask questions in the context of my own experience. I'll say, “Hey, when you say that, that hits me in a really strange way, and it's kind of hurtful and I can see where this would be hurtful for somebody else. Can you help me understand where that idea came from for you and how that became so important to you?” Or like, “I can hear that this is really important to you, can you help me understand why?” Because if I can understand that why, I can create a human connection that allows me to walk someone through, like, “Yo, when you say to me as like a partnered queer person, that my future marriage is not God's best, when did that become so important to you? When did thinking about like queerness in this way become so important to you?And how big, like on a scale of one to 10, how big does that feel for you? And what would that feel like for you if I said something back to you like, ‘You're heteronormative marriage where it looks like your wife doesn't really like you that much, you're kind of a jerk, isn't God's best for you,' what would you say back to me?” Like what a strange thing for you to say to me. And so I think I do a lot of assuming that people are doing their best and asking a lot of origins questions. Because I think that most of evangelicalism is more concerned with indoctrination than it is with development and discipleship. And when you can expose the indoctrination, it opens up a lot of space for questions. Because I know a lot of people that have said to me things like, “I have never thought about that before,” or, “I have never considered that before.”Or, “It came from this book.” And I'm like, “Well, have you read these other books?” Or they're like, “It came from this verse.” And I'm like, “Well, have you read the equivalent verse in the gospels that exists?” And the answer usually is no. The people have not done their due diligence to come to their own ideas. They have parroted because parroting in the church gives you survival, and I understand that. I understand that being able to parrot ideas gives you belonging. And so to fall outside of that, to ask questions outside of that risks your belonging. And so I try to create spaces where people's stories can belong, even if their ideologies need to be questioned and engaged with differently. So I think that's the main way that I engage with that pastorally at least.Jonathan Walton: That is amazing. So being able to sit down with someone, see someone across difference in a way, and turn to wonder, awe and curiosity as opposed to prejudice, judgment, and condemnation. That's great. Amen.Where Listeners Can Find BrandiSy Hoekstra: Can you tell our listeners where they can find you or your work on the internets.Jonathan Walton: Or in real life. Or in real life [laughs].Brandi Miller: Yes. Yeah, you can… if you're not being a weirdo, you can find my church, Quest Church out in Seattle [laughter]. We're doing the best we can out there. I work there, I'm a regular person out there, so don't be a weirdo [laughter].Brandi Miller: But I'm online in several spaces. Primarily, I have a podcast called Reclaiming My Theology, that takes a topic.Jonathan Walton: Five stars, five stars, five stars.Brandi Miller: [laughs, then says very quickly] If you'd give it, it takes 30 seconds to do [laughter]. Yeah, that is exploring different types of problematic or oppressive ideologies and how they wiggle their way into our interpretation of the Bible and Christian culture and how they create Christian culture. We're working through a series on purity culture now that feels like it's never ending, but it's like a perfect intersection of a lot of the other forms of oppression that we've talked about. So we'll be in that for a little bit. And then I just launched a podcast with Quest Church, talking to people about formation practices that make them feel at home with God. And so if you're looking for more of a formational storytelling bend, I'm interviewing folks around those practices right now, as well as the stuff that I'm already doing on the podcast that takes a little bit more of an academic theological bend.Sy Hoekstra: What's the name of that one?Brandi Miller: The Quest Church Podcast.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, okay, got it [laughter]. Okay, cool.Jonathan Walton: Cool, cool. Nice.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for that. If you go and listen to Reclaiming my Theology, you'll hear some familiar voices like Jonathan Walton and Tamice Spencer-Helms and other people that you know. Brandi Miller, this has been fantastic. I'm so happy you joined us [the sound of clapping]. Jonathan's actually applauding, I don't think that's ever happened before [laughter].Jonathan Walton: She's great. She's great. Lovely.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for being with us.Brandi Miller: Yeah, delighted to be with you all. Thank you so much for the opportunity.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy and Jonathan's Thoughts about Christian Community and Communicating Theology Well after the InterviewSy Hoekstra: Okay, Jonathan, that was fantastic [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It really, really was.Sy Hoekstra: What are you thinking coming out of that? Where are your thoughts at?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, so I'm actually stuck on the first thing that she said.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, okay. After that you blacked out and then you don't remember the rest of the interview.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I remember it. But one of the… I thought to myself, you know, I've changed a lot in the last four years since we wrote the essays that we did and since KTF started and all those things. And so it really pushed me to reflect. And when I was in journalism school with Peter Beinart, who is an amazing writer and commentator, especially right now.Sy Hoekstra: Who you've mentioned before, yeah.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yeah, I mean, his work is just amazing. But something that he said in class was, you need to write for the language of the bleachers, like between a fifth and eighth grade level. And that is not a knock on people who are not educated or didn't go to university. It's more like we don't talk like this on a regular basis.Sy Hoekstra: You mean you don't talk the way that highfalutin people write [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: Gotcha.Jonathan Walton: Right. And it was one of those things where I was like, huh, I wonder, would I say things the same way now? Or how can I say them so that people leave saying, “Oh, I know what he meant and I understood what he said,” versus, “I don't know what half those words meant, but it sounded really good [Sy laughs]. Thinking of reflecting on how Jesus spoke to people and who he called and how he called them was something that I just, just struck me about that response. And then obviously we also threw out some big words, some large terms and all those things. And one of the things that stood out to me that I didn't know about was the Overton window that she said. I'd never heard of that before.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, okay.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, but what has become normal. Having a term for that's just helpful. For me, like [laughs] I think I've mentioned this before, is that when I feel anxious, when I feel worried, when I feel concerned, one of the places that I go is information. I need to put it in a box. I need to have words to just feel grounded to engage. And now I can just say, “Oh, the Overton window has shifted [laughs], and that helps me have a place to stand [laughs] in a lot of our discourse and gives me more space to do what she talked about at the end, which is like, can I love people across difference? And when I have cohesive frameworks and information especially like in context, and I can do that more effectively. So I learned a lot. I was challenged and I'm really grateful.Sy Hoekstra: I think actually the thing that stuck out to me, kind of, I end up in a similar place, even though I'm coming from a totally different angle. Which is that the thing that she articulated about the how political doubt becomes religious doubt in like our current, kind of nationalist Christian nationalist landscape was really interesting to me. Because you hear it, so it's such a common thing if you think about it, right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: At least I've heard so many times people just be like, how can a Christian possibly vote for the Democrats? Right? Or asking like doubting Republican orthodoxy is actually grounds to doubt the foundations of your faith or the seriousness of your faith, when Jesus had absolutely no issue having people who he called disciples who were wildly politically different from each other.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So when she talks about wanting to talk across difference like that, or wanting to how Jesus helps people become a better version of themselves, he was doing that with people who were like the Roman empire is fine and I work for them and I get rich off of them and that's great, like Matthew [laughs]. Versus the Roman Empire is the enemy and we need to throw them off via murder and other forms of violence, AKA Simon the Zealot. And like they're just sitting together with Jesus. They're both followers of Jesus, no question.Jonathan Walton: Exactly, right.Sy Hoekstra: And they have opposite political views. And one of them is like really earnestly advocating and killing a bunch of people [laughs]. Right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And that is like, it's just a, I don't know, in the context of some of the church context where I grew up or some of the… like it's just a lot of the conservative Christian context now that is unthinkable, but it is also the absolute norm for Jesus [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So that gives you a sense of when you're a place where your church culture is off, when something that is unthinkable is the norm for Jesus [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Exactly. Exactly. That is what I hope we would say when someone says, what is syncretism?Sy Hoekstra: So syncretism is another one of those big words. I'm not sure we defined it right. Syncretism is a word that a lot of White westerners use for basically poor Black and Brown people, and sometimes Asian people.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: When it's like, oh, you are a Christian, sure, but you're also practicing this native thing. Like my wife's family's from Haiti, right? You are Catholic, but you're also doing this voodoo stuff. And so that's not real pure Christianity, that's syncretism. And now…Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: You were saying Jonathan, sorry, that was… go ahead.Jonathan Walton: No, but like, so Brandi's just turn of phrase when she said, oh, when someone's political foundations are shaken, their religious foundations are shaken. That is syncretism.Sy Hoekstra: Right, yes. Exactly.Jonathan Walton: And so putting it in that language just makes it more effective, more practical, more illuminating for people as opposed to saying, “Well, you're political and social and religious ideologies are enmeshed with one another, but creating an agenda…” It's like, we don't need to talk like that [laughs]. You know what I mean? We can just say it plainly and things God can meet us in that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Which Tab Is Still Open?: Average Black, Christian Voting Patterns and Political Beliefs vs. the Average DemocratJonathan Walton: Alright Sy. Let's jump into our latest segment that we introduced during the bonus episodes, and now we're bringing to you on our wider feed, is Which Tab Is Still Open. Out of all the highlights we've sent around lately in our newsletter, what's still standing out to us? And so, Sy, this one's yours. So go for it.Sy Hoekstra: This one, yeah, this one is mine. It was an article that I had in the newsletter recently by a professor named Ryan Burge, who is a political science professor and a statistician. He's basically one of the go-to experts in America for a lot of media and other sources for data about religion and politics, like surveys, pollsters, et cetera. So he's a professor at Eastern Illinois University, but he's also an American Baptist Convention pastor [laughs]. So this article is about the average Black church attending Protestant. In a lot of these polls and surveys they ask people how often do you go to church, as a measure of your religiosity. Just like an estimate basically, of your religiosity.So he says for the average Black regular church attending Christian, what is the kind of differences in their political beliefs between just the average overall Democrat? And we talked about this in one of our, in the March bonus episode, that for like a lot of people don't realize the distance between… a lot of White people don't realize the distance between [laughs] average Black voter and average Democrat voter, because Black people always vote Democrat, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So if you're not kind of familiar with the culture or the politics, then those, the Black people and Democrats can be synonymous. So basically what he said was the average Black church goer is like a self-identified moderate. Is like almost in the middle of the political spectrum. Is more moderate than the average Democrat on abortion, immigration, policing, all kinds of stuff. Not conservative, but more moderate than the average Democrat. And they've become more moderate in recent years. And so there's an actual kind of statistically significant shift toward the right, but voting hasn't changed at all. Or there's been very little change in actual votes.And then the other interesting thing that he pointed out was the average… they do these polls where they have people rank themselves on a political spectrum from one to seven. So one is as liberal as it gets, and seven is as conservative as it gets. And then they also have people rank the Democrat and Republican parties for where they are, like the party overall. And in the last 10 years, the average Black church going Protestant assessment of where the Republican party is, has not changed at all, like in any significant way.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So meaning when Donald Trump is the standard bearer, no significant difference in how radical or how right the Republican party is than when Mitt Romney was the standard bearer [laughs], right?Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: So you're saying that, “Yep. I get it, totally.” I think to a lot of people, that is some pretty stunning news [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.Sy Hoekstra: So, I don't know, the interesting points to me are just how our assumptions are like about voters in general are based on how White people vote, because White people vote very ideologically and Black people just don't. Like I've seen other polling data where it's like, basically Black people self-identify as liberals, moderates, or conservatives at roughly the same rate as White people. They just don't, Black people just don't vote ideologically. That's the difference, right? And then yeah, that thing where there's no difference between Trump and Mitt Romney is so interesting [laughter].Not no difference between those two men, but no difference between the parties under those two men. And by the way, the rest of the Democrat, the average Democrat thinks the Republican party is far more to the right than it was 10 years ago.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So, basically what I'm saying is Black people knew the whole time [laughs], Black people knew what was up with the Republicans, and the assessment hasn't changed. I don't know, that to me is just a thing that people need to know. I don't know. When people say like, you hear sometimes from progressive people, “Listen to Black people, listen to Black women.” It just gets thrown out there, is like a, what I think to some White people probably sounds like just this weird ideological platitude that people are saying. But this is the reason [laughs]. The reason is marginalized folks in a system understand the system better than people in the dominant positions of the system, and have a, I don't know, have a kind of a clearer sense of where things are, have a more practical view of how to handle themselves in that system, which I think is the non-ideological voting. And yeah, all that stuff is really interesting to me. And I'm wondering what your thoughts were since this was my recommendation.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean, I've… there are so many things that come to mind as we're talking about this. One thing is that the Overton window, as Brandi mentioned [laughs], it has shifted for some people, right? When we talk, when Randy Woodley talks about how people in the United States do not have the luxury of saying, “Oh, it doesn't matter who's president.” Marginalized people know it matters who is sitting in a political position. If it doesn't matter to you, then that creates a different set of problems. And I think another thing I think we have to remember is that [roughly] 70 percent of the voting population in the United States is White. The people who are registered, the people who turn out.And so there's, I think just there's a lot of context to layer over top of this that can obscure just the basic reality of the emancipation and the passing and Civil Rights Act. And the reality is, Black people voted for Lincoln because he wanted to stop slavery. Lincoln was a White supremacist. Lincoln literally argued in his presidential debate in Illinois that he did not believe that Black people were equal and could never be cultured to be with White people.Sy Hoekstra: And therefore we should send them back to Africa.Jonathan Walton: And therefore we should send them back to Africa. That is Lincoln. But why did we vote for him when we finally got the chance to vote, kind of with… [laughs]? It's because he said he did not want to have slavery exist anymore. Now, fast forward to the Civil Rights Act. Why did we all turn into Democrats? Because they said, “Hey, you should actually have civil rights.” Not equal rights, not full rights, not decriminalization. Not all, just some basic civil rights. Bam, now we're in that camp. This has always, always, always been about survival. The statistics are great. You could do the analysis, there's wonderful data that comes out. But at the end of the day, I'm gonna listen to my mama [Sy laughs] and say, “Oh yeah.”It would be preposterous of her to vote for anyone who is for the active destruction of her community. And the reality is, most of the time that is Republicans. Now, there are destructive policies against Black people that come from the Democrats. The difference is, just like we see here, the difference is this thing called White supremacy. One party says White supremacy exists. The other party says it doesn't. One party says White supremacy exists and desires in rhetoric to make it stop, even though they pass policies that continue to perpetuate it. The reality is though, there are more Black people, more people of color, more women in the party that has a donkey and not an elephant. And therefore, we will ride donkeys [laughs].And so that does not mean that we are for… we, when I say Black Christians, are for anything that the Overton window to use Brandi's saying again, has expanded. So Black folks' views on abortion, Black folks' views on war, Black folks' views on policing. Again, we like to be safe too. And unfortunately, a lot of times in communities of color that equals calling the police. That equals saying, “Hey, can someone help me?” Right? In Baltimore, in Chicago, in over policed parts of New York City, Black folks still have to call the police. Like it's not some utopia where we're just gonna let everything go. That doesn't exist in our communities.We still actually desire for the systems to work for us. We do not desire the system to destroy us. And so we use the systems and desire to make them better. And so these numbers I think are exceptionally informative at illuminating the, or illuminating the reality that many people in marginalized communities already know. But hopefully there'll be a common place for us to talk about it. Now there is a resistance to academia and research in progressive and conservative circles [laughs]. And so someone may say, “Well, that's just not true because it's not true for me.” But hopefully it will create some common ground to be able to have a cohesive conversation about Black folks, the Democratic party and progressive and conservative politics.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's what we're trying to do. Political education, man [laughs].Outro and OuttakeJonathan Walton: Lord have mercy.Sy Hoekstra: Lord have mercy. This has been a great conversation. We were so happy that Brandi came on. And thanks for talking as always, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: We will see you all in a couple of weeks. Our theme song is Citizens by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robin Burgess, transcripts by Joyce Ambale. And as I'm gonna start saying a lot, I'm stealing this from Seth at Can I Say This at Church? This show is produced by our subscribers [laughs]. Thank you all and we will see you all in two weeks.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: And he loves wackadoodles, I'm gonna use that one. Loves wackadoodles [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: That I have never heard. Is that because I'm not from the south that I've never heard that? Was that… [laughter]?Jonathan Walton: Well, no. Brandi's not from the south either.Brandi Miller: Also, you know I'm big up north here. I'm a Pacific Northwest girly full on. There's no doubt there [Jonathan laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Is that a Brandi quote? Is that from you?Brandi Miller: No, I'm certain that come from somewhere.Sy Hoekstra: I'm just lost. It's fine.Brandi Miller: Maybe it's Black. Maybe that's what it is.Sy Hoekstra: Well, obviously if I am the confused one and you're not, that's my first thought as well. So [laughter], there's always, there's just like, I'm so used to that point in conversations at this point in my life where I'm like, “Oooooh it's because I'm White” [laughter]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Today's episode features Jonathan and Sy talking with Pastor Rasool Berry. They discuss:-        The importance of acknowledging and understanding your own and your community's power-        The social and spiritual forces behind the opposition to CRT or DEI (or whatever they're calling it today)-        Pastor Berry's incredible documentary about Juneteenth and Christian faith-        When to leave communities that push back against racial justice-        And after the interview, Sy and Jonathan reflect on the work it takes to pass on a tradition like Juneteenth well, and the truly, literally unbelievable levels of ignorance whiteness creates in people-        Plus, they discuss the Daniel Perry pardon, and the threads that connect it to the Donald Trump convictionsMentioned in the Episode-        Our anthology - Keeping the Faith: Reflections on Politics and Christianity in the era of Trump and Beyond-        An abridged version of Pastor Berry's article from the anthology.-        His subsequent article, “Uncritical Race Theory”-        The documentary Juneteenth: Faith and Freedom-        Resources for screening Juneteenth and inviting speakers involved with the film-        The soundtrack for Juneteenth-        Pastor Berry's podcast, Where Ya From?-        The article on Daniel Perry Sy put in our newsletter-        The Texas Monthly article about how legally unusual Perry's pardon wasCredits-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Rasool Berry: There was a lot of nicknames and still are for Juneteenth. One was Emancipation Day, Freedom Day, but Jubilee Day. And when I discovered that, that's when I said we got to get involved in this process. Because you mean to tell me that these formerly enslaved people at a time when it was illegal to read, that they understood enough of the story that they picked out this festival, that it was this reordering of society, the kingdom of heaven coming back to earth. And in the context of this, of their faith, they saw God doing a jubilee in their lives?[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]IntroductionSy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Today, hear us talk to Pastor Rasool Berry about his thoughts on the movement against CRT, or DEI, or whatever the term for the moment is right now when you listen to this. We're also [laughs] going to talk about his incredible feature length documentary called Juneteenth: Faith and Freedom, which is available for free on YouTube right now. And then after the interview, hear our thoughts on the pardon of Daniel Perry and the conviction of Donald Trump in our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open?Sy Hoekstra: The 34 convictions of Donald Trump.Jonathan Walton: All of them.Sy Hoekstra: All of them [laughs]. We're going to talk about each one individually…Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: …the specific business record that he destroyed, whatever.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Don't be afraid, we're not going to do that. By the way, I said at the end of last week that the guest this week was going to be Brandi Miller, and then we realized that we had to do the episode that was about Juneteenth before Juneteenth. So Brandi Miller's going to be in two weeks from now. And this time [laughs], it's Pastor Rasool Berry.Before we get to that, just a reminder, we need your subscriptions. Please go to ktfpress.com and become a paid subscriber on our Substack. Your support sustains what we do, and we need that support from you right now. We've been doing this as a side project for a long time, and like we've been saying, if we want this show to continue past this season, we need to get a lot more subscribers so that we can keep doing this work, but not for free as much as we've been doing it.So go and subscribe. That gets you all the bonus episodes of this show, which there are many, many of at this point. And then it also gets you access to our new monthly subscriber conversations that we're doing. Jonathan and I will be having video chats with you to talk about all the different kinds of things that we talk about on this show, answer some questions, just have a good time. And if you cannot afford a subscription, if money's the only obstacle, just write to us at info@ktfpress.com. We will give you a free or discounted subscription, no questions asked. But if you can afford it, please, ktfpress.com. Become a paid subscriber. We need your support now.Jonathan Walton: Pastor Rasool Berry serves as teaching pastor at The Bridge Church in Brooklyn, New York. He's also the director of partnerships and content development with Our Daily Bread Ministries. Pastor Berry graduated from the University of Pennsylvania with a bachelor's degree in Africana Studies and Sociology. He's also the host of the Where Ya From? podcast sponsored by Christianity Today, and the writer, producer and host of Juneteenth: Faith and Freedom. Let's get to it. Here's the interview.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Pastor, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today.Rasool Berry: Oh, well, I'm glad to be here with you all, back at it again, Keeping the Faith.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Yes, exactly [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Amen. Amen.The Importance of “Mapping” PowerSy Hoekstra: So, you wrote this fantastic essay for… so, well, actually, it was originally for your blog, I think, and then we kind of took it and adapted it for the anthology. And it was about critical race theory, and you broke down a lot of the history and sort of the complex intellectual background of it and everything. But you talked specifically about something that you said, critical race theory and the Bible and the Black Christian tradition in the US all help us do something really important, and that thing is mapping power. Can you talk to us a little bit about what power mapping is and what the importance of it is?Rasool Berry: Yeah. I first kind of got wind of that framework when we were launching a justice ministry at our church. And two friends Gabby, Dr. Gabby Cudjoe Wilkes and her husband, Dr. Andrew Wilkes, who do a lot of great work with justice, actually walked our church through thinking about mapping power in our church as a way of evaluating what types of justice initiatives did it make sense for us to engage in, in light of what we had in the room. And so for instance, when I was in my church in Indiana, a lot of the parishioners worked at Lilly who's headquarters is in Indiana. And so when they decided to do something for the community, they ended up opening up a clinic in the church building, which still exists and serves the local community, because they all had medical backgrounds.So when they do mission work, they do mission work with a medical component, because that's a effective way of mapping power. Where our church in Brooklyn average age is about 28, 29 and they're more artsy. So we're not opening up clinics, you know what I mean? But what we can do is events that help inspire and help engage with people. And then eventually with our pastor's leadership started something called Pray March Act, which looks to be a place to mobilize churches around issues of justice in New York City. So what is oftentimes overlooked in Christian spaces, and I really am indebted to Andy Crouch and his book, Playing God: Redeeming the Gift of Power, for really surfacing the need for us to have a theology of power.That this is something that oftentimes especially evangelical churches, or more kind of Bible oriented or people kind of churches, there's a sense in which we don't know how to think about power. And I believe, I suspect this is one of the reasons why the church has been so susceptible to issues like sexual abuse, to egregious theft in money, is because we are not really conditioned to think about power, which is really ironic because the scriptures really do point to… I mean, we literally have two books, First and Second Kings, and those books are pointing to you have the king, this king was a good king, and it impacted the kingdom of Israel this way. This king was a bad king, and then this is what happened.And so it's wired in the text, right? Amy Sherman in her book, Kingdom Calling, Dr. Amy Sherman points to this when she points to the proverb that says, “when the righteous prosper, the city rejoices.” And it's this idea, when she says righteous, she's not thinking about it in the kind of traditional pietistic aspect of righteousness, but she's talking about “tzedakah” in the Hebrew, which has this connotation of justice. Because when people who are put in positions of power and influence, when they do right by the people underneath them when they do right, that people celebrate. Versus when there's somebody who's a tyrant that's in office, the people groan because there's that sense of they recognize we've mapped power dynamics, and somebody who's going to do ill is going to have a disproportionate impact on all of us.And so power mapping is bringing to surface the awareness of what is it that we have in the room. And it's also a very humbling way of being aware of our own power, right? Like how do I show up as a man in a space, in certain things? Like I know if I get up and I'm about to preach that there's some different dynamics depending on who I'm talking to in a room. Like if I'm in a predominantly Black context that's younger, then the locks might actually kind of give me some street cred. Like, oh, that's kind of cool. But if I'm in a older, traditional space, looking younger is going to be more of a uphill climb to say, okay, what's this guy coming at? And if I'm in a White space, versus but I also recognize that when our sisters come up, that there's a whole different type of power mapping situation.And so all of these things are helpful in being aware of how we show up and how that matters. And Andy's kind of thesis is that unlike the kind of post Nietzschean postmodern suspicion and critical view of power that only sees it as a negative, that God has actually given us and ordained us to exert influence and power in redemptive ways. But we can only do that if we map it, if we're aware of it, and if we use it in a way that's not just for our own self or comfort or glory, but for those who we're called to serve.Sy Hoekstra: Can I ask, just for some like to get specific on one thing, because I'm not sure this would be intuitive to everyone. You said if we map power, then we might not end up in the same situations that we are with, like abuse scandals in the church?Rasool Berry: Yeah. Yep.Sy Hoekstra: And I think I… where my mind goes is I think we would react differently to the abuse scandal. I don't know if the abuse scandals themselves would… those happen unfortunately. But I think where the power mapping might come in, is where so many people are then just deferring to whatever the person in, the pastor's narrative is. Is that kind of what you're talking about, like the reaction?Rasool Berry: I think it's on both sides.Sy Hoekstra: You do? Okay.Rasool Berry: Yeah, because for instance, if I am aware, very aware of power dynamics with children and adults, I would see the value in a practice of not leaving an adult in a space with a child by themselves.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I see. You might put systems in place ahead of time. Yeah, yeah.Rasool Berry: Right. So there's the sense in which we can put policies in place that recognize… it's the same thing why we put the labeling system on kids when they check into childcare, right? Like you put the little label so that some random person can't just come and pick them up because a kid can't defend themselves. Or they may not have the capacity to understand what's going on if somebody just random comes up and says, “Hey, your mom and your dad told me to come get you,” and then they believe that. And so we have systems that we put in place to recognize those power dynamics. And I think unfortunately, that in a lot of our church context and culture there's an overly naive sense of, and really sometimes idolatrous view of pastors and leaders that essentially say, well, they're good and they're godly people, so there isn't a need for accountability, or there isn't a need for, you know…And so no, it's like, well, in the same way that we have trustees in certain churches, or there's a elders board, depending on what your church polity is, that polity should reflect a sense of accountability and transparency so that there is an awareness on the front end as well as on the backend that when it does come to bring people into account, that there's also an awareness of a power dynamic at play there too.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense especially when [laughs] we throw those things out, all we have are the systems of hierarchy and social dominance that exist to define what power is, right?Rasool Berry: Right.Jonathan Walton: So the train just keeps going.The Social and Spiritual Forces behind the Fight against CRT/DEIJonathan Walton: So leaning into that a little bit, you wrote an essay focusing on CRT power mapping and things like that. But it feels like nobody in the Trump camp really had an idea of what CRT was, and it didn't even really matter to them what it was.Rasool Berry: Right.Jonathan Walton: So what do you think is at the core of what's going on with White people when they reject CRT or DEI or whatever the—conscious—whatever the term would be?Rasool Berry: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: What do you think the underlying concern is?Rasool Berry: Well, you know, after… and it's so funny because when I wrote that first piece, I wrote it as a way… [laughs] I wrote it just to get it off my chest. And in my mind, almost nobody was going to read it because it was like a 20-something minute read, and I just didn't care because I was just like, “I'm getting this off my chest,” and this is the last I'm going to say about it. Like I thought that was going to be just this thing, just so I can point people to, if anybody asks. I did not intend, nor did I think that it was only going to kind of position me as this person that people were listening to and reading and resonating with about it. So that was funny. But then what ended up happening, and especially after I was on the unbelievable? podcast with Justin Brierley, kind of in this debate format with Neil Shenvi, who's kind of been one of the most outspoken evangelical Christian critics of critical race theory. Critics is probably too mild of a term, kind of a…Jonathan Walton: Antagonist.Rasool Berry: Antagonist, even stronger. Like this doomsday prophet who says that, who's warning against the complete erosion of biblical norms because of the Trojan Horse, in his mind, of critical race theory. In the midst of that conversation, that kind of elevated, it was one of their top 10 episodes of the entire year, and it just kind of got me into these spaces where I was engaging more and more. And I kind of sat back and reflected, and I had a few more interactions with Neil on Twitter. And I ended up writing a separate piece called “Uncritical Race Theory.” And the reason why I did that, is I went back and I was curious about what kind of insights I could get from previous instances of the way that there were being controversies surrounding race in America in the church, and how the church talked about those debates.So I went back and I read The Civil War as a Theological Crisis by Mark Noll, who looked at and examined the actual debates during the time of the antebellum period of pro-slavery Christians and anti-slavery Christians, and he analyzed that. Then I went back and I read The Color of Compromise by Jemar Tisby, who looked at the pro-integrationist and segregationist arguments in the church. And what I found was that there was incredible symmetry between what was argued in each of those instances, going all the way back to the 1800s, to the 1960s, to now, and there were two things that emerged. The first was that the primary response from those who were supportive of slavery in the 1800s, or those who were supportive of segregation in the 1960s was to claim first of all, that the opposing view were not biblically faithful, or were not even concerned about biblical fidelity.So this is different than other types of discussions where we could say, even going back to the councils, right? Like when there's some type of, like during the Nicaean Council or something like that, they're debating about how they're understanding the text about certain things. Whereas is Jesus fully God, is he man, is he both? But there's a basic premise that they're both coming at it from different aspects of scriptures. What I noticed in the American context is that there was a denial that the side that was kind of having a more progressive view was even biblically faithful at all.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Christian.Rasool Berry: The second part is related to the first, is that there was this allegation that there was outside philosophies that was actually shaping this impetus because it wasn't clearly the Bible. So in the 1800s that was the claim, “Oh, you're being influenced by these post-enlightenment ideas.” In the 1960s it was straight up Marxism, communism. You see the signs. “Integration is communism.” Like you see the people protesting with that, and of course the new version of that is kind of the remix of cultural Marxism, or these type of things. And so what I acknowledged in each of those scenarios is that part of the problem is that there is such an uncritical understanding of race that it causes, I think especially those in a dominant culture or those who've been susceptible to the ideologies of White supremacy, which can be White or Black or other, There's a tendency to see any claim that race is a problem as the problem itself because there's an underlying denial of the reality of racial stratification in our society, and the what Bryan Stevenson refers to as the narrative of racial difference or what is more commonly known as White supremacy. So when your default position is that you are introducing a foreign concept into the conversation when you talk about the relevance of race in a scenario, then it causes… that sense of uncritical nature of the reality of race causes you to then look upon with suspicion any claim that there's some type of racial based situation happening. And that is what I call, it is really ironically uncritical race theory. It's the exact opposite of what critical race theory is trying to do.And so I think that that's my take on what's happening. And then I think that's more of the scientific sociological, but then there's also a spiritual. I am a pastor [laughter]. And I have to end with this. I have to end with this, because in some ways I was naively optimistic that there was, if you just reasoned and show people the right analogies or perspectives, then they would, they could be persuaded. But what I have since realized and discovered is that there is a idolatrous synchronization of what we now know of different aspects of White Christian nationalism that is a competing theological position and belief system that is forming these doctrinal positions of what we now kind of look at as American exceptionalism, what we look at as this sense of the status quo being… all the things that are moving toward an authoritarian regime and away from democracy, that that is all solidifying itself as an alternative gospel.And I think that at the end of the day, I'm looking at and grieving about mass apostasy that I'm seeing happening in the church as a result of an unholy alliance of political ideology and Christian symbols, language, and values expressed in this kind of mixed way. And that's what is really being allowed to happen with this unmapped power dynamic, is that people don't even realize that they're now exerting their power to kind of be in this defensive posture to hold up a vision of society that is actually not Christian at all, but that is very much bathed in Christian terms.Jonathan Walton: I want to say a lot back, but we got to keep going, but that was good.Sy Hoekstra: We got to… [laughs]. Yeah. I mean, we could talk forever about what you just said, but we could also talk forever about your documentary. So let's transition to that.Rasool Berry: [laughter] You all are like exercising restraint.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: I am.Rasool Berry: Like, “oh, I want to go there.” I just threw steak in front of the lions [laughter].Why Pastor Berry Made a Documentary about JuneteenthSy Hoekstra: But it's because, I mean, the documentary's interesting in a way... It's sort of like, okay, you've seen this movement of mass apostasy and everything, and you've had all these people tell you you're not faithful. And with this documentary in some ways, you're just sprinting on down the road that you're on. You know what I mean? It's like sort of [laughs], you're just going straightforward like we need to remember our past. We need to learn about power dynamics in American history. So you wrote this—[realizing mistake] wrote— you were involved in, you're the kind of narrator, the interviewer of this documentary Juneteenth: Faith and Freedom. And you went to Galveston and you went to Houston, Texas to learn more about the history of Juneteenth and the communities and the people that shaped the celebration and everything.And I guess I just want to know how this got started and why it was so important for you to engage in what was a very significant project…Rasool Berry: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: …to teach people about this kind of history that I think the movement against CRT or DEI or whatever is quite actively trying to suppress.Rasool Berry: And these two stories are very much intertwined…Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Rasool Berry: …in ways that I didn't even fully anticipate in some ways. In some ways I knew, in some ways I didn't. But I grew up in Philly, where there was not growing up a significant Juneteenth awareness or celebration or anything like that. So I had heard about it though when I was very young, the concept of it. I had a classmate whose middle name was Galveston, and I was like, “That's a weird name. Why is your middle name Galveston?” [laughter] He told me that it's because his mom had told him about this situation where there were Black people that didn't know they were free for two and a half years after the Emancipation Proclamation. I was like eight years old when I first heard that, but filed that away.It wasn't really until more recent years with the, just massive racial justice movement spurred on by the murders of Tamir Rice and George Floyd and others, Sandra Bland. And so, as that movement started to gin up, conversations about race that I was kind of plugged into, I heard about this 90-something year old woman that was appearing before Congress…Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Rasool Berry: …and challenging them to make Juneteenth a national holiday.Sy Hoekstra: I can't believe you got to interview her. She was amazing.Rasool Berry: Yeah. And I was like, why would a 90-something plus year old woman be like this committed to this? So I started looking into it and realizing, I think both spiritually and socially, that there was incredible potency and opportunity in the recognition, the widespread recognition of Juneteenth. I'll go socially first. Socially, the reality has been the United States has never had a moment where we collectively reflect on the legacy of slavery in our country. And if you do the math, from the first enslaved people that we have documented coming into the States in 1619 until if even if you go to the abolition of slavery in 1865 or 1866 with the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment, that's about 244 years.If you go from 1865 to now, it's like 159 or so years. So we still have way more time in our society that has been shaped by this most intense version of a caste system and brutal slavery that had global, it literally reshaped the globe. And sometimes we forget. I live in Brooklyn where most of the Black folk are Afro-Caribbean. When you think of Jamaica, you think of Usain Bolt or Bob Marley. Do you realize that all of those people are from Africa, like our African descent people. That like the native people of Jamaica would've been Native Americans. So the legacy of slavery and colonialism has literally reshaped population centers in our world. That's how significant it was.And so to not have a moment to reflect on all of it, the implications of how the legacy still shapes us, but also the progress of what we've seen happen and how we are not in that same place is a missed opportunity. But on the contrary, to put that in place is an opportunity for reflection that I think could really help ground us toward being a more perfect union, toward us being a unified people. Because we're basing it on the same story and information, which increasingly in the age of misinformation and disinformation, that the erosion of us having a shared narrative is really upon us. So I think it's interesting and important from that standpoint. Spiritually, it was even more dynamic because one of the… so there was a lot of nicknames and still are for Juneteenth. One was Emancipation Day, Freedom Day, but Jubilee Day.And when I discovered that, that's when I said, “Okay, Our Daily Bread, we got to get involved in this process.” Because you mean to tell me that these formerly enslaved people at a time when it was illegal to read, primarily because they didn't want people to read the Bible, that they understood enough of the story of the Old Testament, that they picked out this festival in Leviticus 25, this ordinance that God had put in place, that on the Jubilee year, the Sabbath of all Sabbaths, I call it the Super Bowl of Sabbaths [Sy laughs]. Seven years times seven, forty nine years plus one, fifty. That on that day that it was this reordering of society, the kingdom of heaven coming back to earth, which simultaneously anticipates the wickedness and the brokenness of human systems in power, but also projects and casts vision about the kingdom of heaven, which would allow for equity and equality to take place. So debts were forgiven, lands were returned, and people who were in bondage primarily because of debt, that was the main reason back then, they would be set free. And in the context of their faith, they saw God doing the jubilee in their lives. So what that gave was the opportunity for us to talk about and reintroduce in many faith traditions the relationship between spiritual and physical freedom, and see that in the Bible story those things were wedded.What's the major account in the Old Testament is the Exodus account. Like it was both physical and spiritual freedom. And in the same way we see that is why Jesus, when he reveals himself and says, “The kingdom of God is at hand,” notice when John the Baptist starts to waver because he's expecting this conquering king. He's still in prison and he says, “Hey, are you the one or we should expect another?” Jesus points to physical and spiritual aspects of liberation in his response. “Tell John what you see. The blind receive sight. The sick are healed. The gospel is preached. Blessed is the one who is not ashamed of me.” So in the sense of that, what we see elements of the kind of seeds of in the gospel is this aspect of the physical and spiritual liberation being tied together.And that is what Jubilee gives us opportunity to explore and investigate. And I think lastly, seeing the role of the Black church in bringing out that insight, I think is particularly valuable in a time where oftentimes those contributions are overlooked and ignored.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. I think being able to watch the documentary was transformative for me. Mainly because I'm 38 years old and it's being produced by people who look and sound and act like me. It's interviewing the people who came before us, trying to speak to the folks that are younger than us. And each generation I think has this, this go around where we have to own our little piece of what and how we're going to take the work forward. You know what I mean?Discerning Whether to Leave Communities that Push back on Discussions about RaceYou interviewed Lecrae in the documentary and he's taken that work forward, right? And you both say that you've had the experiences of believing you are loved and accepted in these White evangelical spaces until you started talking about racial justice issues.And so I feel like there's these moments where we want to take the work forward, and then we're like, “All right, well, this is our moment.” Like Opal was like, “Hey, I'm going to do Juneteenth.” Where now you're like, “I'm going to do something.” [laughs] So I wonder, like for you, when you have to make decisions about how to stay, not to stay or just leave. What is the effect of constantly engaging in that calculus for you?Rasool Berry: Oh, man! It's exhausting to do it. And I think it is valuable to count the cost and realize that sometimes you're best suited to reposition yourself and to find other ways to express that faithfulness. At other times, God is causing you to be a change agent where you are. And I think how to navigate through that is complicated, and I think it's complicated for all of us, for our allies who see the value of racial justice as well as for those of us who are marginalized and experience, not just conceptually or ideologically the need for justice, but experientially all of the things through macro and microaggressions that come up, that weigh and weather us and our psyche, our emotions, our bodies.And I think that it's important to be very spiritually attuned and to practice healthy emotional spirituality as well as, best practices, spiritual disciplines, all the things that have come alongside of what does it mean to follow Jesus. I was recently reflecting on the fact that in the height of Jesus' ministry, when it was on and popping, he's growing, the crowds are growing in number, it says that he went away regularly and left the crowds to be with God. And then the verse right after that, it's in Luke, I can't remember which chapters, I know the verse is 16 and 17. And then it talks about how he had power as a result of going away to do more. And there's this relationship between our needing to rest and to find recovery in the secret place in the quiet place with God in order to have the energy to do more of the work.And that's a lot to hold together, but it's really important because otherwise you can end up being like Moses, who was trying to do justice, but in his own strength at first when he kills the Egyptian, and then he tried to go to his people being like, “Yo, I'm down!” And they're like, “You killed somebody. We don't want to hear from you.”Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Right.Rasool Berry: And then he flees. Because he tried to do it in his own strength. And then when God reveals himself at the bush, now he's totally broken and not even confident at all in himself. And God has to say, “No, the difference is going to be I'm with you.” So I think in my own journey, I've been one of many people who've had to evaluate and calculate where I've been in order to kind of see where there are opportunities to move forward. For instance, I was on staff with Cru for 20 years and then as the opportunities to work with Our Daily Bread, and I remember specifically the podcast Where Ya From?, that we launched and then Christianity Today got connected to it.They were eagerly looking, or at least supporting the idea of us having conversations about faith and culture and race and all these things. Whereas in my previous environment, I felt like that was not something… I didn't even feel like it, I experienced the pullback of talking about those things. So it has actually, by repositioning myself to kind of be able to be in spaces where I can tell these stories and advocate in these ways, it has been a better use of my energy and my time. Now, even in that other space, everything isn't perfect. It's still the same type of challenges that exist anywhere you go in the world where you're a minority in race and racial difference is prominent, but at least it's a opportunity to still do more than I could do maybe in a previous position. And all of us have to make those type of calculations.And I think it's best to do those things in the context of community, not just by yourself, and also with a sense of sobriety of encountering and experiencing God himself. Because at the end of the day, sometimes, I'm going to just say this, sometimes the answer is leave immediately. Get out of there. At other times, God is calling you to stay at least in the short term time. And it's important to be discerning and not just reactive to when is the right situation presenting itself. And the only way I know to do that is by doing it in community, doing it with a sense of healthy rhythms and time to actually hear the still small voice of God.Sy Hoekstra: Amen.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: Because you really can err in either direction. Like some people, “I'm getting out of here right away,” without thinking. Meaning, when you're being reactive, when you're not being discerning…Rasool Berry: Right.Sy Hoekstra: …you can get out right away or you can have the instinct, “No, I'm going to stick it out forever,” even if it's bad for you, and it's not going to accomplish anything.Rasool Berry: Yup, yeah.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Which I think leans into jumping all the way back the critical versus uncritical.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs]. There you go.Jonathan Walton: Like if we're not willing to lean into the radical interrogation of the systems and structures around us that inform our decisions each day, we will submit to them unconsciously, whether that be running when we should resist or whether that be resisting where we actually should flee. So yeah, thanks for all that.Where you can Find Pastor Berry's workSy Hoekstra: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And so we will have links to both of the articles, to the documentary, which is entirely free on YouTube.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So you're just wasting your life if you're not watching it, really [laughter]. And a couple other things you talked about, we'll have links. But is there anywhere that you want people to go to either follow you or your work online?Rasool Berry: Yeah. So the other thing that what we did with the Juneteenth documentary, because the response was so strong and overwhelming, really, people wanted to host screenings locally. And so we did a few things to make that more possible. So you can actually go on our website experiencevoices.org/Juneteenth. And you can fill out like a form to actually host a screening locally. And we have designed social media so you can market it, posters that you could print out, even discussion questions that you can use to host discussions. And sometimes people invite some of us from the production on site. So I've gone and done, I've been at screenings all the way from California to Texas to Wisconsin and here in New York.So you can reach out to us on that website as well if you're interested in hosting a screening with the director or one of the producers or myself, and we can kind of facilitate that. Also be looking at your local PBS stations. We partnered with PBS to air screenings so far over a hundred local channels.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, wow.Rasool Berry: And have aired it. Now, the PBS version is slightly different because we had to edit it down to fit their hour long format. And so the biggest version is the PBS version doesn't have Lecrae in it [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Oh no [laughs].Rasool Berry: We had to cut out the four-time Grammy winner. Sorry Lecrae [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Rasool Berry: You know what I mean? But it just so happened that way it, that it was the best way to edit it down.Jonathan Walton: You had to keep Opal.Rasool Berry: Had to keep Opal, had to keep Opal [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: I feel like Lecrae would understand that, honestly.Rasool Berry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was so gracious. And actually, the other thing that Lecrae did, I had told him that we were working with Sho Baraka, a mutual friend of ours, to do the music. And he said, “Yeah, I heard something about that.” He's like, “I have a song I was going to put on Church Clothes 4, but I feel like it would be a better fit for this. If you're interested, let me know and I can send it to you.” I'm like, “If I'm interested? Yes, I'm interested.” [laughter] Yes. I'll accept this sight unseen. And so he sent us this incredible song that features, well actually is listed as Propaganda's song, but it features Lecrae and Sho Baraka. And you can get the entire Juneteenth: Faith and Freedom soundtrack 13 tracks, poetry, hip hop, gospel, rnb, all on one thing. And wherever you listen to your music, Spotify, Apple Music, anywhere, you can, listen to it, stream it, buy it, and support this movement and this narrative. So yeah. And then personally, just @rasoolb on Instagram, @rasoolberry on, I still call it Twitter [Sy laughs]. So, and we're on Facebook as well. That's where folks can follow me, at rasoolberry.com, website. So thanks for having me.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, pastor, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it.Jonathan Walton: Thanks so much, man.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Reflecting on the InterviewSy Hoekstra: Hey, Jonathan, you know what's really useful, is when in the middle of an interview with one of our guests, we say, “Oh no, we don't have time. We'd really like to get into this, so we have to move on to another subject.” It's really useful when we have these little times that we're doing now after the interview to talk more about the subjects than we did with the guests [laughter]. This works out well for us.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Why don't you tell everybody what you're thinking after the interview with Pastor Berry?Passing on a Tradition Well Takes Significant WorkJonathan Walton: Yeah. I think the biggest thing for me that I took away among a lot of the nuggets that he… nuggets and like big things that got dropped on me while we were listening, was like the amount of work that he went through to make this film. Like traveling to Galveston. There's a lot in the documentary that reminds me of how much it costs us personally to create things that are moving. To be able to have these conversations, sit down with these people, smell the smells of these folks' homes. That's just a big thing, particularly for me, like not having… I grew up with the Juneteenth story and needing to think through my own traditions and what I'm going to pass to my kids and stuff like that.It's just I'm challenged to do that work so that I have something substantial to pass on to Maya and Everest. And to the folks who listen to the preaching that I give or the stories I write, or the books I'm going to write, just so I can communicate with the same amount of intimacy that he did. So, Sy how about you? What stood out for you?The Literally Unbelievable Racial Ignorance of WhitenessSy Hoekstra: I think what stood out for me was actually right at that point where we said we really wanted to talk more about something, I really did have more thoughts [laughs]. When he was talking about the thing that underlies the fight against CRT and DEI and all that sort of thing. Being just a straight up denial of any sort of racial caste system or racial stratification in our country, I think that point is extremely important. That so much of our disagreements about racial injustice, at least on the intellectual level, not on the emotional and all that kind of thing, the intellectual level that come down to a difference in beliefs about the facts of reality in America. It is literally just do you think racism is happening or not? Because if you do think that it's happening, then everything has to change [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And there's not a lot of room… you'll have to do a lot more like kind of active denial. A lot more having a very active lack of integrity [laughs] to continue in the way that you're thinking when you believe that there is no racism in America if you find out that there is. Which kind of explains why there's so much resistance to it. But I think one story that sort of illustrates how this dynamic works a little bit that just, this is something that happened to me that this reminded me of. I was an intern right after college at International Justice Mission, and I read Gary Haugen's book, The Good News About Injustice, where the intro to this book is about his childhood growing up in kind of suburban, I think he's outside of Seattle, somewhere in Washington. A suburban Christian home, things were pretty nice and easy and he just did not know anything about injustice or anything in the world. Like oppression, racism, he did not know anything about it. And then the book takes you through how he discovered it and then his theology of what God wants to do about it and what the organization does and all that kind of thing. But just that intro, I remember talking to one of the other interns who was at IJM m when I was there, who was a Black woman who was ordained in the Black Baptist Church and had grown up relatively low income. And I was talking to her about this book because I read that intro and I was like, “yes, I totally resonate with this. This is how I grew up, check, check. That makes sense. I understand all of it.”And it makes sense to a lot of the people who support IJM, which are a lot of suburban White evangelicals. She told me, she read the intro to the book and her immediate reaction was how, there is no way that anyone could possibly be this ignorant. It is not possible [laughs]. And I was like, [pretending to be hurt] “but I was” [laughter]. And there's this wrench in the gear of our conversations about justice where there's a large spectrum of White people who are, some engaging in actual innocent good faith about how much nonsense there is, like how much racism there is in America, and people who are engaging in complete bad faith and have ignored all the things that have been put right in front of them clearly.And it is just very difficult for a lot of people who are not White to understand [laughs] that there are actually… the level of ignorance of a lot of White people is unbelievable, by which I mean it literally cannot be believed by a lot of people. And I don't know, that's just, it is a complication in our conversations about race that doesn't really change what you have to tell people or how seriously you should take your conversations or whatever. It's just a note about what you might need to do to bring people kind of into the fold, by which I mean the fold of the truth [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. This is true of like a lot of White people. And the sad part is that it can also be true of a lot of people of color…Sy Hoekstra: Well, yeah.Jonathan Walton: …who say, “I'm just going to deny, because I haven't experienced.” Or, “We have opted into the system of ignorance and don't want to engage.” And so I'll tell a story. Priscilla was at the airport this week.Sy Hoekstra: Your wife.Jonathan Walton: My wife Priscilla, was at the airport, not a random woman [laughter], was at the airport this week. And someone said, “Yeah, everyone who came to this country, like we're all immigrants.” And Priscilla said, “Actually some people came here as slaves.” Then the person says, “No, that's not true.” And it's like, what do you say to that? When someone just says slavery doesn't exist? And that's literally why we celebrate Juneteenth. So I don't know what this person's going to do on Juneteenth, but when there's a collective narrative and acknowledgement that this happened, and then there's a large group, James Baldwin would say, ignorance plus power is very dangerous.If there's a large group that's ignorant and or like intentionally not engaging, but also has power and privilege and all the things, the benefits of racial stratification without the acknowledgement of the reality of it, which is just a dangerous combination.Sy Hoekstra: So when somebody says something like that, like that didn't happen, people didn't come over here as slaves, I think it is possible that they legitimately don't know that I suppose [laughs], or that they think it's a conspiracy theory or whatever. My guess is, tell me what you think about this. What I would imagine happened there was, “Oh, I never thought about the fact that Black people are not immigrants. And so I'm just going to say no.” Do you know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. Well, I agree. I think some people even, so let's say like, I write about this in 12 Lies. Ben Carson says that we all came here as immigrants, even if it was in the bottom of a ship. He says that. And I think that is a, to be kind, a gross misrepresentation of the middle passage [laughs], but I see what he's trying to do. He's trying to put Black folks in a narrative that fits in the American narrative so people can, so he's not othered. Because what happens when you acknowledge enslavement is that you have to acknowledge all that. They all come with each other. It's like being at a buffet and there is literally no other menu. Like once you say, once you go in, you can't order one plate. If you talk about slavery, you're opening up all the things and some people just don't want to do that. And that sucks.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Which Tab Is Still Open: Daniel PerryJonathan Walton: It's true. And [laughs], I think this feeds into a little bit of this segment [laughs] that we have aptly called Which Tab is Still Open. Because out of all the things in our newsletter and our podcast, there's stuff that comes up for us and it's just still hanging on our desktops, we still talk about it offline. So for Sy, like for you, which one, which tab is still open?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. We're going to talk about Daniel Perry and Donald Trump today.Jonathan Walton: Fun times.Sy Hoekstra: So I recently had an article in the newsletter that I highlighted as one of my resources, that is about the case of Daniel Perry, which I think kind of flew a little bit under the radar in the fervor of 2020. But he was a known racist, meaning we have now seen truckloads of social media posts and text messages and everything revealing his out and out racism, his fantasies about killing Black Lives Matter protesters, all these kinds of things. Who in the summer of 2020, during those protests, drove his car through a red light into a crowd of protesters. And he did not at that moment hurt anyone, but another, an Air Force vet, Daniel Perry's also a vet, but another Air Force vet named Garrett Foster, walked up to him carrying, openly carrying his, in Texas, legal assault rifle.He didn't point it at Daniel Perry, but he was carrying it. And he knocked on the window and motioned for Perry to roll his window down, and Perry shot him through the window five times and killed him. He was convicted of murder in 2023 by a jury. And the day after he was convicted, governor Greg Abbott republican governor of Texas said that he wanted his case to be reviewed for a full pardon, so that the pardons board could send him a recommendation to do it, which is the legal way that a governor can make a pardon in Texas. And that happened a couple weeks ago. Daniel Perry walked free with all of his civil rights restored, including his right to own firearms.Texas Monthly did some really good reporting on how completely bizarre this pardon is under Texas law, meaning they very clear, they kind of laid out how these pardons typically go. And the law very clearly says that a pardon is not to be considered for anyone who is still in prison, like hasn't finished their sentence, except under very exceptional circumstances, which are usually that like some new evidence of innocence has come to light.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And the actual materials that the board reviewed were basically just his defense case where like him arguing that he was doing what he did out of self-defense. He was standing his ground, and that he was afraid of Foster and therefore allowed to use deadly force. In any other case, the remedy for that, if you think that's your defense and you were wrongly denied your defense by the jury is to appeal. Is to go through the appeals to which you have a right as a criminal defendant. And in this case, he became a bit of a conservative cult hero and the governor stepped in to get him out of jail. It was so bizarre. So the weird thing here is, for me at least, for these cases, for the cases surrounding like where someone has been killed either by the police or by an individual, it has always been pretty clear to me which way the case is going.Like if you're someone who's actually taken a, like me, gone to law school, taken a criminal law class, you've studied murder and then like the right to stand your ground and the right to self-defense, and when you can use deadly force, most of these cases are pretty predictable. I knew that the killers of Ahmaud Arbery and Walter Scott and Jordan Davis were going down. I knew that people were going to get off when they got off. Like those were not confusing. And that isn't because the law isn't racist or whatever, it's just the law doesn't take race into account at all. It just completely ignores, it has nothing to do with the cases, according to the law. So it's like this one was stunning.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Because if it had gone to the appellate judges, the judges who actually are thinking about like the whole system and the precedents that they're setting would say, “Hey, in an open carry state like Texas, we do not want to set a precedent where if someone who is legally, openly carrying a gun walks up to you, you can kill them.” That is not a precedent that they want to set. But this is not an appellate case, so we're not setting that precedent, we're just letting this racist murderer go. That's it.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And that is like what effectively Greg Abbott and the Board of Pardons in Texas have conspired to do. And I didn't know this was coming actually. I hadn't heard the news that he was calling for the pardon when it happened, but it's wild. And I just kind of wanted to give that additional context and hear what you're thinking about it, Jonathan, and then we'll get into Donald Trump a little bit.Normalizing Punishing Protestors and Lionizing MurderersJonathan Walton: Yeah, I mean, I think first thing for me is like this is a PG podcast. I won't use all the expletives that I would like to use. The reality of like Kyle Rittenhouse lives in Texas now. George Zimmerman, after he killed Trayvon Martin, he was in other altercations with people with guns. So this is not a person or a scenario that is new, which is sad and disappointing. But the reality of an institution stepping into enforce its institutionalized racism, is something that feels new to me in the environment that we're in. And what I mean by that is like, I think we now live in a society that desires for protestors and folks who are resistant to the system that oppresses and marginalizes people, if you believe that is happening.There are individuals and institutions that desire to punish that group of people. It is now normed that that group of people can be punished by anybody.Sy Hoekstra: If you're in the right state.Jonathan Walton: Well, I won't even say the right state, but I almost think if you can get caught in the zeitgeist of a certain media attention, then you will be lauded as someone who did the right thing.Sy Hoekstra: Oh yeah. Even if you might still end up in jail.Jonathan Walton: Even if you might still end up in jail, like you'll become a hero. And so the circumstances have been created where protesters can be punished by regular members of society, and then their quote- unquote punishment could be pardoned in the court of public opinion, and so much so you could end up being pardoned by the institution. There are going to be more protests on campus. There are going to be more protests in light of Trump's conviction and potential election. The chances of political violence and protests are very high, highly probable there're going to be thunderstorms. And what we're saying is like, let's give everybody lightning bolts [Sy laughs]. And we all know if this is a racially stratified society, which it is, if it's a class stratified society, which it is, then we will end up with things like Donald Trump getting convicted and becoming president.Sy Hoekstra: And the racial stratification is important to remember because people have pointed out, if there had been a Trump rally and someone had been killed, that like, not a chance that Greg Abbott does any of this, right?Jonathan Walton: The hallmark of White American folk religion is hypocrisy. If this were a person of color, there's no way that they would've got pardoned for shooting someone at a protest.The Criminal Legal System was Exceptionally Kind to Donald TrumpSy Hoekstra: And this is the connection to the Donald Trump case [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Because despite the fact that he was convicted, he has been treated throughout this process in a way that no poor or BIPOC would, like no poor person or any BIPOC would ever be treated by the New York State courts. I can tell you that from experience [laughter] as an actual attorney in New York state. Donald Trump had 10 separate violations of a gag order, like he was held in contempt by the court and required to pay some money, which is significant, but nobody does that and doesn't spend some time in jail unless they are rich and famous and White. It was shocking to watch the amount of dancing around him and his comfort that the system does. And this is, pastor Berry mentioned Bryan Stevenson, another Bryan Stevenson quote.I've mentioned, we've mentioned Brian Stevenson so many times on this show [laughter]. But it's true. One of the things he says all the time is that the system treats you better if you're rich and White and guilty than if you're poor and BIPOC and innocent.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And, that's the demonstration. So the Trump indictments happened when we're recording this yesterday. Or the convictions, I mean. And in terms of what it'll do to the election, probably not much. In terms of what it'll like [laughs], like Jonathan was just saying, like this is the situation that we're in here. We don't have a lot of political analysis to bring you about this case because I don't think there's much political analysis to do except to continue to point out over and over again that this is not the way that people are treated by the criminal justice system. This is an exception to what is otherwise the rule.Outro and OuttakeOkay. I think we're going to end there. Thank you all so much for joining us today. Our theme song, as always is “Citizens” by John Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robyn Burgess. Transcripts by Joyce Ambale. And thank you all so much for joining us. Jonathan, thanks for being here. We will see you all again in two weeks.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me was like the amount of work that he went through to make this film. I'm challenged to do that work so that I have something substantial to pass on to Maya and Everest, just so I can communicate with the same amount of intimacy that he did.Sy Hoekstra: So now you're going to go make a documentary about Juneteenth, is what you're saying?Jonathan Walton: [deep exhale, and Sy laughs] At least a reel [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: A reel… yeah, those are pretty much the same I'd say. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Welcome to the Season four kick-off! Today, we have our first interview with one of the authors from our anthology on Christianity and American politics, the incredible Dr. Randy Woodley. The episode includes:-        How dualism defines White worldviews, and how it negatively affects White Christians-        How love and vulnerability are central to a life with Jesus-        Why our voting decisions matter to marginalized people-        And after the interview in our new segment, hear Jonathan and Sy talk about the attack on teaching Black history in schools, and the greater responsibility White people need to take for their feelings about historical factsResources Mentioned in the Episode-            Dr. Woodley's essay in our anthology: “The Fullness Thereof.”-            Dr. Woodley's book he wrote with his wife, now available for pre-order: Journey to Eloheh: How Indigenous Values Led Us to Harmony and Well-Being-            Dr. Woodley's recent children's books, the Harmony Tree Trilogy-            Our highlight from Which Tab Is Still Open?: The podcast conversation with Nikole Hannah-Jones and Jelani Cobb-            The book A Race Is a Nice Thing to Have: A Guide to Being a White Person or Understanding the White Persons in Your LifeCredits-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our newsletter and bonus episodes at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra.-        Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Sy HoekstraTranscript[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Randy Woodley: So the Europeans were so set in this dualistic mindset that they began to kill each other over what they consider to be correct doctrine. So we had the religious wars all throughout Europe, and then they brought them to the United States. And here we fought by denomination, so we're just like, “Well I'm going to start another denomination. And I'm going to start another one from that, because I disagree with you about who gets baptized in what ways and at what time,” and all of those kinds of things. So doctrine then, what we think about, and theology, becomes completely disembodied to the point now where the church is just looked at mostly with disdain.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. My name is Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra, we are so excited to be starting our interviews with our writers from our Anthology in 2020 that we published when we [resigned voice] had the same election that we're having this year [Jonathan laughs]. So it's still relevant at least, and we're really excited to bring you Dr. Randy Woodley today. Jonathan, why don't you tell everyone a bit about Dr. Woodley?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So Dr. Woodley is a distinguished professor emeritus of faith and culture at George Fox Seminary in Portland, Oregon. His PhD is in intercultural studies. He's an activist, a farmer, a scholar, and active in ongoing conversations and concerns about racism, diversity, eco-justice, reconciliation ecumen… that's a good word.Sy Hoekstra: Ecumenism [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Ecumenism, interfaith dialogue, mission, social justice and indigenous peoples. He's a Cherokee Indian descendant recognized by the Keetoowah Band. He is also a former pastor and a founding board member of the North American Institute for Indigenous Theological Studies, or NAIITS, as we call it. Dr. Woodley and his wife Edith are co-founders and co-sustainers of Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice situated on farmland in Oregon. Their Center focuses on developing, implementing and teaching sustainable and regenerative earth practices. Together, they have written a book called Journey to Eloheh: How Indigenous Values Led Us to Harmony and Well-Being, which will come out in October. It's available for preorder now, you should definitely check it out. Dr. Woodley also released children's books called Harmony Tree.In our conversation, we talk about what he thinks is the key reason Western Christians have such a hard time following Jesus well, the centrality of love in everything we do as followers of Jesus, the importance of this year's elections to marginalize people, and Dr. Woodley's new books, and just a lot more.Sy Hoekstra: His essay in our book was originally published in Sojourners. It was one of the very few not original essays we had in the book, but it's called “The Fullness Thereof,” and that will be available in the show notes. I'll link to that along with a link to all the books that Jonathan just said and everything else. We're also going to be doing a new segment that we introduced in our bonus episodes, if you were listening to those, called Which Tab Is Still Open?, where we do a little bit of a deeper dive into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. So this week, it will be on The Attack on Black History in schools, a conversation with Jelani Cobb and Nikole Hannah-Jones. It was a really great thing to listen to. That'll be in the show notes to hear our thoughts on it after the interview.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely. And friends, we need your help. We're going into a new phase of KTF, and as you know, this is a listener supported show. So everything we do at KTF to help people leave the idols of America and seek Jesus and confront injustice is only possible because you are supporting us. And in this next phase, we need a lot more supporters. So we've been doing this show, and all of our work in KTF as kind of a side project for a few years, but we want to make it more sustainable. So if you've ever thought about subscribing and you can afford it, please go to and sign up now. And if you can't afford it, all you got to do is email us and we'll give you a free discounted subscription. No questions asked, because we want everyone to have access to our content, bonus episode, and the subscriber community features.So if you can afford it, please do go to www.ktfpress.com, subscribe and make sure these conversations can continue, and more conversations like it can be multiplied. Thanks in advance. Oh, also, because of your support, our newsletter is free right now. So if you can't be a paid subscriber, go and sign up for the free mailing list at www.ktfpress.com and get our media recommendations every week in your inbox, along with things that are helping us stay grounded and hopeful as we engage with such difficult topics at the intersection of church and politics, plus all the news and everything going on with us at KTF. So, thank you so, so much for the subscribers we already have. Thanks in advance for those five-star reviews, they really do help us out, and we hope to see you on www.ktfpress.com as subscribers. Thanks.Sy Hoekstra: Let's get into the interview, I have to issue an apology. I made a rookie podcasting mistake and my audio sucks. Fortunately, I'm not talking that much in this interview [laughter]. Randy Woodley is talking most of the time, and his recording comes to you from his home recording studio. So that's nice. I'll sound bad, but most of the time he's talking and he sounds great [Jonathan laughs]. So let's get right into it. Here's the interview.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]What Dualism Is, and How It's Infected the White ChurchJonathan Walton: So, Dr. Woodley, welcome to Shake The Dust. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for contributing to our Anthology in the way that you contributed [laughs].Randy Woodley: I'm glad to be here. Thank you.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Your essay, I mean, was really, really great. We're going to dive deep into it. But you wrote in the essay, the primary difference in the lens through which Western and indigenous Christians see the world is dualism. And so if you were able to just define what is dualism, and why is it a crucial thing for Western Christians to understand about our faith, that'd be great to kick us off.Randy Woodley: Yeah, except for I think I want to draw the line differently than the question you just asked.Jonathan Walton: Okay.Randy Woodley: When we say indigenous Christians, by and large, Christians who are Native Americans have been assimilated into a Western worldview. It's a battle, and there's lots of gradient, there's a gradient scale, so there's lots of degrees of that. But by and large, because of the assimilation efforts of missionaries and churches and Christianity in general, our Native American Christians would probably veer more towards a Western worldview. But so I want to draw that line at traditional indigenous understandings as opposed to indigenous Christian understandings. Okay. So, yeah, Platonic Dualism is just a sort of… I guess to make it more personal, I started asking the question a long time ago, like what's wrong with White people [Sy laughs]? So that's a really valid question, a lot of people ask it, right? But then I kind of got a little more sophisticated, and I started saying, well, then what is whiteness? What does that mean? And then tracing down whiteness, and a number of deep studies and research, and trying to understand where does whiteness really come from, I really ended up about 3000 years ago with the Platonic Dualism, and Western civilization and the Western worldview. And so Plato of course was the great dualist, and he privileged the ethereal over the material world, and then he taught his student, Aristotle. So just to be clear for anybody who, I don't want to throw people off with language. So the thing itself is not the thing, is what Plato said, it's the idea of what the thing is. And so what he's doing is splitting reality. So we've got a holistic reality of everything physical, everything ethereal, et cetera. So Plato basically split that and said, we privilege and we are mostly about what we think about things, not what actually exists an our physical eyes see, or any senses understand. So that split reality… and then he taught Aristotle, and I'm going to make this the five-minute crash course, or two minutes maybe would be better for this [laughs]. Aristotle actually, once you create hierarchies in reality, then everything becomes hierarchical. So men become over women, White people become over Black people. Humans become over the rest of creation. So now we live in this hierarchical world that continues to be added to by these philosophers.Aristotle is the instructor, the tutor to a young man named Alexander, whose last name was The Great. And Alexander basically spreads this Platonic Dualism, this Greek thinking around the whole world, at that time that he could figure out was the world. It goes as far as North Africa and just all over the known world at that time. Eventually, Rome becomes the inheritor of this, and then we get the Greco-Roman worldview. The Romans try to improve upon it, but basically, they continue to be dualist. It gets passed on, the next great kingdom is Britain, Great Britain. And then of course America is the inheritor of that. So Great Britain produces these movements.In fact, between the 14th and 17th century, they have the Renaissance, which is a revival of all this Greek thinking, Roman, Greco-Roman worldview, architecture, art, poetry, et cetera. And so these become what we call now the classics, classic civilization. When we look at what's the highest form of civilization, we look back to, the Western worldview looks back to Greek and Greece and Rome and all of these, and still that's what's taught today to all the scholars. So, during this 14th to 17th century, there's a couple pretty big movements that happen in terms of the West. One, you have the enlightenment. The enlightenment doubles down on this dualism. You get people like René Descartes, who says, “I am a mind, but I just have a body.” You get Francis Bacon, who basically put human beings over nature. You get all of this sort of doubling down, and then you also have the birth of another, what I would call the second of the evil twins, and that is the Reformation. [exaggerated sarcastic gasp] I'll give the audience time to respond [laughter]. The Reformation also doubles down on this dualism, and it becomes a thing of what we think about theology, instead of what we do about theology. So I think I've said before, Jesus didn't give a damn about doctrine. So it became not what we actually do, but what we think. And so the Europeans were so set in this dualistic mindset that they began to kill each other over what they consider to be correct doctrine. So we had the religious wars all throughout Europe, and then they brought them to the United States. And here we fought by denomination, so just like, “Well, I'm going to start another denomination. And I'm going to start another one from that, because I disagree with you about who gets baptized in what ways, and at what time,” and all of those kinds of things.So doctrine then, what we think about, and theology becomes what we're thinking about. And it becomes completely disembodied, to the point now where the church is just looked at mostly with disdain, because it doesn't backup the premises that it projects. So it talks about Jesus and love and all of these things. And yet it's not a reflection of that, it's all about having the correct beliefs, and we think that's what following Jesus is. So when I'm talking about Platonic Dualism, I'm talking about something deeply embedded in our worldview. Not just a thought, not just a philosophy, but a whole worldview. It's what we see as reality. And so my goal is to convert everyone from a Western worldview, which is not sustainable, and it will not project us into the future in a good way, to a more indigenous worldview.Dr. Woodley's Influences, and How He's Influenced OthersSy Hoekstra: So let's talk about that effort then, because you have spent effectively decades trying to do just that.Randy Woodley: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: Working with both indigenous and non-indigenous people. So tell us what some of the good fruit that you see as you disciple people out of this dualistic thinking?Randy Woodley: I feel like that question is supposed to be answered by the people I effected at my memorial service, but…Sy Hoekstra: [laughter] Well, you can answer for yourself.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I mean…Randy Woodley: Yeah, I mean, it's a bit braggadocious if I start naming names and all those kinds of things [Sy laughs]. I would just say that I've had influence in people's lives along with other influences. And now, I mean, first of all when I look back, I look and the most important thing to me is my children know I love them with all my heart and I did the best I could with them. And then secondly, the people who I taught became my friends. And the people I've mentored became my friends and I'm still in relationship with so many of them. That's extremely important to me. That's as important as anything else. And then now I look and I see there's people and they've got podcasts and they've got organizations and they've got denominations and they're... I guess overall, the best thing that I have done to help other people over the years is to help them to ask good questions in this decolonization effort and this indigenous effort. So yeah, I've done a little bit over the years.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] How about for yourself? Because I don't think, I think one of the reasons you started asking these questions was to figure things out for yourself. What fruit have you seen in your own “walk,” as evangelicals might put it?Randy Woodley: Well, I think as you get older, you get clarity. And you also realize that people who have influenced you, and I think about a lot of people in my life. Some I've met, some I've never met. Some you've probably never heard of. People like Winkie Pratney, and John Mohawk and John Trudell, and public intellectuals like that. And then there's the sort of my some of my professors that helped me along the way like Ron Sider and Tony Campolo, and Samuel Escobar and Manfred Brauch. And just a whole lot of people I can look back, Jean [inaudible], who took the time to build a relationship and helped me sort of even in my ignorance, get out of that. And I think one of the first times this happened was when I was doing my MDiv, and someone said to me, one of my professors said to me, “You need to see this through your indigenous eyes.” And I was challenged. It was like, “Oh! Well then, what eyes am I seeing this through?” And then I began to think about that. The thing about decolonizing, is that once you start pulling on that thread the whole thing comes unraveled. So yeah.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I think like, just to speak a little bit to your impact, I think something you said to someone that was said to me, was like we're all indigenous to somewhere. And the importance of looking upstream to see how we're influenced to be able to walk into the identity that God has called us to. Including the people who led me to faith being like Ashley Byrd, Native Hawaiian, being able to call me out of a dualist way of thinking and into something more holistic, and now having multi-ethnic children myself being able to speak to them in an indigenous way that connects them to a land and a people has been really transformative for me.Randy Woodley: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. See? Right there.Love and Vulnerability are Central to Christian LifeJonathan Walton: [laughs] Yeah. And with that, you make a point of saying that you're somebody who works hard to speak difficult truths in a way that is loving and acceptable to everybody. I would say that's like Jesus, right? To be able to speak hard truths and yet people are curious and want to know more even though they're challenged. And so why, I could guess, and I'm sure people would fill in the blanks. But like if you had to say why that's important to you, what would you say?Randy Woodley: Well, I mean, love's the bottom line of everything. If I'm not loving the people I'm with, then I'm a hypocrite. I'm not living up to what I'm speaking about. So the bottom line to all of this shalom, understanding dualism, changing worldviews, is love. And so love means relationship. It means being vulnerable. I always say God is the most vulnerable being who exists. And if I'm going to be the human that the creator made me to be, then I have to be vulnerable. I have to risk and I have to trust and I have to have courage and love, and part of that is building relationships with people. So I think, yeah, if… in the old days, we sort of had a group of Native guys that hung around together, me and Richard Twiss, Terry LeBlanc, Ray Aldred, Adrian Jacobs. We all sort of had a role. Like, we called Richard our talking head. So he was the best communicator and funniest and he was out there doing speaking for all of us. And my role that was put on me was the angry Indian. So I was the one out there shouting it down and speaking truth to power and all that. And over the years, I realized that that's okay. I still do that. And I don't know that I made a conscious decision or if I just got older, but then people start coming up to me and saying things like, “Oh, you say some really hard things, but you say it with love.” And I'm like, “Oh, okay. Well, I'll take that.” So I just became this guy probably because of age, I don't know [laughs] and experience and seeing that people are worth taking the extra time to try and communicate in a way that doesn't necessarily ostracize them and make them feel rejected.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I think there's all these iterations of the last 50 years of people trying to say, “Hey, love across difference. Hey, love across difference.” And there's these iterations that come up. So I hope a lot of people get older faster to be able, you know [laughter].Randy Woodley: I think we're all getting older faster in this world we're in right now.Jonathan Walton: It's true. Go ahead Sy.The Importance of Voters' Choices to marginalized PeopleSy Hoekstra: Yeah. So we had another interview that we did, kind of about Middle East politics, as we're thinking about the election coming up. And one of the points we hit on that we've talked about before on this show is that to a lot of people in the Middle East or North Africa, whoever gets elected in the US, it doesn't necessarily make the biggest difference in the world. There's going to be drones firing missiles, there's going to be governments being manipulated by the US. America is going to do what America is going to do in the Middle East regardless. And I assume to a certain degree, tell me if I'm wrong, that that might be how a lot of indigenous people think about America. America is going to do what America is going to do regardless of who's in power, broadly speaking at least. What do you think about when you look at the choices in front of us this November? How do you feel about it? Like what is your perspective when you're actually thinking about voting?Randy Woodley: Yeah, that's a really good question. And I understand I think, how people in other countries might feel, because Americans foreign policy is pretty well based on America first and American exceptionalism, and gaining and maintaining power in the world. And I think that makes little difference. But in domestic affairs, I think it makes a whole lot of difference. Native Americans, much like Black Americans are predominantly Democrats and there's a reason for that. And that is because we're much more likely to not have our funding to Indian Health Service cut off in other things that we need, housing grants and those kinds of things. And there's just such a difference right now, especially in the domestic politics. So I mean, the Republicans have basically decided to abandon all morals and follow a narcissistic, masochistic, womanizing… I mean, how many—criminal, et cetera, and they've lost their minds.And not that they have ever had the best interest of the people at the bottom of the social ladder in mind. Because I mean, it was back in the turnaround when things changed a long time ago that there was any way of comparing the two. But ever since Reagan, which I watched, big business wins. And so right now, we live in a corporatocracy. And yes, there are Democrats and the Republicans involved in that corporatocracy, but you will find many more Democrats on the national scale who are for the poor and the disenfranchised. And that's exactly what Shalom is about. It's this Shalom-Sabbath-Jubilee construct that I call, that creates the safety nets. How do you know how sick a society is? How poor its safety nets are. So the better the safety nets, the more Shalom-oriented, Sabbath-Jubilee construct what I call it, which is exactly what Jesus came to teach.And look up four, that's his mission. Luke chapter four. And so, when we think about people who want to call themselves Christians, and they aren't concerned about safety nets, they are not following the life and words of Jesus. So you just have to look and say, yes, they'll always, as long as there's a two-party system, it's going to be the lesser of two evils. That's one of the things that's killing us, of course lobbyists are killing us and everything else. But this two-party system is really killing us. And as long as we have that, we're always going to have to choose the lesser of two evils. It's a very cynical view, I think, for people inside the United States to say, well, there's no difference. In fact, it's a ridiculous view. Because all you have to look at is policy and what's actually happened to understand that there's a large difference, especially if you're poor.And it's also a very privileged position of whiteness, of power, of privilege to be able to say, “Oh, it doesn't matter who you vote for.” No, it matters to the most disenfranchised and the most marginalized people in our country. But I don't have a strong opinion about that. [laughter]Jonathan Walton: I think there's going to be a lot of conversation about that very point. And I'm prayerful, I'm hopeful, like we tried to do with our Anthology like other groups are trying to do, is to make that point and make it as hard as possible that when we vote it matters, particularly for the most disenfranchised people. And so thank you for naming the “survival vote,” as black women in this country call it.Dr. Woodley's new books, and Where to Find His Work OnlineJonathan Walton: And so all of that, like we know you're doing work, we know things are still happening, especially with Eloheh and things like that. But I was doing a little Googling and I saw like you have a new book coming out [laughs]. So I would love to hear about the journey that… Oh, am I saying that right, Eloheh?Randy Woodley: It's Eloheh [pronounced like “ay-luh-hay”], yeah.Jonathan Walton: Eloheh. So I would love to hear more about your new book journey to Eloheh, as well as where you want people to just keep up with your stuff, follow you, because I mean, yes, the people downstream of you are pretty amazing, but the spigot is still running [laughter]. So can you point us to where we can find your stuff, be able to hang out and learn? That would be a wonderful thing for me, and for others listening.Randy Woodley: Well, first of all, I have good news for the children. I have three children's books that just today I posted on my Facebook and Insta, that are first time available. So this is The Harmony Tree Trilogy. So in these books are about not only relationships between host people and settler peoples, but each one is about sort of different aspects of dealing with climate change, clear cutting, wildfires, animal preservation, are the three that I deal with in this trilogy. And then each one has other separate things. Like the second one is more about empowering women. The third one is about children who we would call, autistic is a word that's used. But in the native way we look at people who are different differently than the West does: as they're specially gifted. And this is about a young man who pre-contact and his struggle to find his place in native society. And so yeah, there's a lot to learn in these books. But yeah, so my wife and I…Sy Hoekstra: What's the target age range for these books?Randy Woodley: So that'd be five to 11.Jonathan Walton: Okay, I will buy them, thank you [laughter]Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Randy Woodley: But adults seem to really love them too. So I mean, people have used them in church and sermons and all kinds of things. Then the book that Edith and I wrote is called Journey to Eloheh, how indigenous values bring harmony and well-being. And it's basically our story. The first two chapters really deal, the first chapter deals more in depth of this dualism construct. And the second one really deals with my views on climate change, which are unlike anybody else's I know. And then we get into our stories, but I wanted to set a stage of why it's so important. And then Edith's story, and then my story and then our story together. And then how we have tried to teach these 10 values as we live in the world and teach and mentor and other things and raise our children.So, yeah, the journey to Eloheh, that's all people have to remember. It's going to be out in October, eighth I think.Jonathan Walton: Okay.Randy Woodley: And we're really excited about it. I think it's the best thing I've written up to this date. And I know it's the best thing my wife's written because this is her first book [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Awesome.Sy Hoekstra: That's great.Randy Woodley: Yeah, so we're proud of that. And then yeah, people can go to www.eloheh.org. That's E-L-O-H-E-H.org and sign up for our newsletter. You can follow me on Instagram, both @randywoodley7 and @eloheh/eagleswings. And the same with Facebook. We all have Facebook pages and those kinds of things. So yeah, and then Twitter. I guess I do something on Twitter every now and then [laughter]. And I have some other books, just so you know.Sy Hoekstra: Just a couple.Jonathan Walton: I mean a few. A few pretty great ones. [laughs] Well on behalf of me and Sy, and the folks that we influence. Like I've got students that I've pointed toward you over the years through the different programs that we run,Randy Woodley: Thank you.Jonathan Walton: and one of them is… two of them actually want to start farms and so you'll be hearing from them.Randy Woodley: Oh, wow. That's good.Jonathan Walton: And so I'm just…Randy Woodley: We need more small farms.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Places where stewardship is happening and it is taught. And so, super, super grateful for you. And thanks again for being on Shake the Dust. We are deeply grateful.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Randy Woodley: Yeah, thank you guys. Nice to be with you.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy's and Jonathan's Thoughts After the InterviewJonathan Walton: So, wow. That was amazing. Coming out of that time, I feel like I'm caring a lot. So Sy, why don't you go first [laughs], what's coming up for you?Sy Hoekstra: We sound a little starstruck when we were talking to him. It's kind of funny actually.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if people know, in our world, he's sort of a big deal [laughter]. And we have, neither of us have met him before so that was a lot of fun.Jonathan Walton: No, that's true.Sy Hoekstra: I think it was incredible how much like in the first five minutes, him summing up so much about Western theology and culture that I have taken like, I don't know, 15 years to learn [laughs]. And he just does it so casually and so naturally. There's just like a depth of wisdom and experience and thinking about this stuff there that I really, really appreciate. And it kind of reminded me of this thing that happened when Gabrielle and I were in law school. Gabrielle is my wife, you've heard her speak before if you listen to the show. She was going through law school, as she's talked about on the show from a Haitian-American, or Haitian-Canadian immigrant family, grew up relatively poor, undocumented.And just the reasons that she's gotten into the law are so different. And she comes from such a different background than anybody who's teaching her, or any of the judges whose cases she's reading. And she's finding people from her background just being like, “What are we doing here? Like how is this relevant to us, how does this make a difference?” And we went to this event one time that had Bryan Stevenson, the Capitol defense attorney who we've talked about before, civil rights attorney. And Sherrilyn Ifill, who at the time was the head of the NAACP's Legal Defense Fund. And they were just, it was the complete opposite experience, like they were talking about all of her concerns. They were really like, I don't know, she was just resonating with everything that they were saying, and she came out of it, and she goes, “It's just so good to feel like we have leaders.” Like it's such a relief to feel like you actually have wiser people who have been doing this and thinking about this for a long time and actually have the same concerns that you do. And that is how I feel coming out of our conversation with Randy Woodley. Like in the church landscape that we face with all the crises and the scandals and the lack of faithfulness and the ridiculous politics and everything, it is just so good to sit down and talk to someone like him, where I feel like somebody went ahead of me. And he's talking about the people who went ahead of him, and it just it's relieving. It is relieving to feel like you're almost sort of part of a tradition [laughter], when you have been alienated from the tradition that you grew up in, which is not the same experience that you've had, but that's how I feel.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean, I think for me, coming out of the interview, one of the things I realized is similar. I don't have very many conversations with people who are older than me, that are more knowledgeable than me, and have been doing this work longer than me all at the same time. I know people who are more knowledgeable, but they're not actively involved in the work. I know people that are actively involved in the work, but they've been in the silos for so long, they haven't stepped out of their box in ten years. But so to be at that intersection of somebody who is more knowledgeable about just the knowledge, like the historical aspects, theological aspect, and then that goes along with the practical applications, like how you do it in your life and in the lives of other people. He's like the spiritual grandfather to people that I follow.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: [laughter] So it's like, so I think you said it, like we were a little starstruck. I do think I was very conscious of being respectful, which I think is not new for me, but it is a space that I don't often inhabit. And I think that's something that has been frustrating for me, just honestly like the last few years, is that the pastoral aspect of the work that we do, is severely lacking.Sy Hoekstra: When you say the pastoral aspect of the work that we do, you mean like, in the kind of activist-y Christian space, there just aren't a ton of pastors [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Yes. And, so for example, like I was in a cohort, and I was trying to be a participant. And so being a participant in the cohort, I expected a certain level of pastoring to happen for me. And that in hindsight was a disappointment. But I only realized that after sitting down with somebody like Randy, where it's like, I'm not translating anything. He knows all the words. He knows more words than me [Sy laughs]. I'm not contextualizing anything. So I think that was a reassuring conversation. I think I felt the same way similarly with Ron Sider, like when I met him. He's somebody who just knows, you know what and I mean? I feel that way talking with Lisa Sharon Harper. I feel that way talking with Brenda Salter McNeil. I feel that way talking with people who are just a little further down the road.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Lisa's not that much older than us [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Well, is she?Sy Hoekstra: You compared her to Ron Sider. I'm like, “That's a different age group, Jonathan” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Well, I don't mean age. I do mean wisdom and experience.Sy Hoekstra: Right. Yeah, totally.Jonathan Walton: Yes, Ron Sider was very old [laughs]. And actually, Ron Sider is actually much older than Randy Woodley [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: That's also true. That's a good point.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right. Ron Sider is, when the Anthology came out, he was legit 45 years older than us, I think.Sy Hoekstra: And he very kindly, endorsed, and then passed away not that long afterwards.Jonathan Walton: He did, he did.Sy Hoekstra: He was such an interesting giant in a lot of ways to people all over the political spectrum [laughs]…Jonathan Walton: Yes, right.Sy Hoekstra: …who just saw something really compelling in his work.Which Tab Is Still Open? Legislators Restricting Teaching about Race in SchoolsSy Hoekstra: So Jonathan, all right, from our recent newsletter recommendations. Here's the new segment, guys. Jonathan, which tab is still open?Jonathan Walton: Yes. So the tab that's still open is this article and podcast episode from The New Yorker, featuring a conversation with Columbia School of Journalism Dean, Jelani Cobb, and Nikole Hannah-Jones from Howard University and the 1619 project. They talked about the attack on Black history in schools. And so there's just two thoughts that I want to give. And one of them is that there are very few conversations where you can get a broad overview of what an organized, sustained resistance to accurate historical education looks like, and they do that. Like they go all the way back and they come all the way forward, and you're like “expletive, this is not okay.” [Sy laughs] Right? So, I really appreciated that. Like, yes, you could go and read Angela Crenshaw's like Opus work. Yes, you could go…Sy Hoekstra: You mean, Kimberlé Crenshaw [laughs]?Jonathan: Oh, I mixed, Angela Davis and Kimber… Well, if they were one person, that would be a powerful person [Sy laughs]. But I do mean Kimberlé Crenshaw, no offense to Angela Davis. I do mean Kimberlé Crenshaw. You could go get that book. You could go listen to Ta-Nehisi Coates testimony in front of Congress on reparations. Like these long things, but like this conversation pulls a lot of threads together in a really, really helpful, compelling way. And so that's one thing that stood out to me. The second thing is I think I have to acknowledge how fearful and how grateful it made me. I am afraid of what's going to happen in 20 years, when children do not know their history in these states. And I'm grateful that my daughter will know hers because she goes to my wife's school in New York.And so, I did not know that I would feel that sense of fear and anxiety around like, man, there's going to be generations of people. And this is how it continues. There's going to be another generation of people who are indoctrinated into the erasure of black people. And the erasure of native people in the erasure of just narratives that are contrary to race-based, class-based, gender-based environmental hierarchies. And that is something that I'm sad about. And with KTF and other things, just committed to making sure that doesn't happen as best as we possibly can, while also being exceptionally grateful that my children are not counted in that number of people that won't know. So I hold those two things together as I listened to just the wonderful wisdom and knowledge that they shared from. What about you Sy? What stood out for you?White People Should Take Responsibility for Their Feelings Instead of Banning Uncomfortable TruthsSy Hoekstra: Narrowly, I think one really interesting point that Jelani Cobb made was how some of these book bans and curriculum reshaping and everything that's happening are based on the opposite reasoning of the Supreme Court in Brown versus Board of Education [laughs]. So what he meant by that was, basically, we have to ban these books and we have to change this curriculum, because White kids are going to feel bad about being White kids. And what Brown versus Board of Education did was say we're going to end this idea of separate but equal in the segregated schools because there were they actually, Thurgood Marshall and the people who litigated the case brought in all this science or all the psychological research, about how Black children in segregated schools knew at a very young age that they were of lower status, and had already associated a bunch of negative ideas with the idea of blackness.And so this idea that there can be separate but equal doesn't hold any water, right? So he was just saying we're doing what he called the opposite, like the opposite of the thinking from Brown versus Board of Education at this point. But what I was thinking is like the odd similarity is that both these feelings of inferiority come from whiteness, it's just that like, one was imposed by the dominant group on to the minoritized group. Basically, one was imposed by White people on to Black people, and the other is White people kind of imposing something on themselves [laughs]. Like you are told that your country is good and great and the land of the free and the home of the brave. And so when you learn about history that might present a different narrative to you, then you become extremely uncomfortable.And you start to not just become extremely uncomfortable, but also feel bad about yourself as an individual. And White people, there are so many White people who believe that being told that the race to which you belong has done evil things, that means that you as an individual are a bad person, which is actually just a personal emotional reaction that not all white people are going to have. It's not like, it isn't a sure thing. And I know that because I'm a White person who does not have that reaction [laughter]. I know that with 100 percent certainty. So it's just interesting to me, because it really raised this point that Scott Hall talks about a lot. That people need to be responsible for our own feelings. We don't need to legislate a new reality of history for everybody else in order to keep ourselves comfortable.We need to say, “Why did I had that emotional reaction, and how can I reorient my sense of identity to being white?” And that is what I came out of this conversation with, is just White people need to take responsibility for our identity, our psychological identity with our own race. And it comes, it's sort of ironic, I think, that conservative people who do a lot of complaining about identity politics, or identitarianism, or whatever they call it, that's what's happening here. This is a complete inability to separate yourself psychologically from your White identity. That's what makes you feel so uncomfortable in these conversations. And so take responsibility for who you are White people [laughs].Just who you are as an individual, who you are as your feelings, take responsibility for yourself.There's a great book that my dad introduced me to a while back called A Race Is a Nice Thing to Have: A Guide to Being White or Understanding the White Persons in Your Life [laughter]. And it's written by this black, female psychologist named Janet Helms. It's H-E-L-M-S. But it's pronounced “Helmiss.” And she just has dedicated her career to understanding how White people shape their identities. And she has so, like such a wealth of knowledge about different stages of white identity formation, and has all these honestly kind of funny little quizzes in the book that she updates every few, there's like a bunch of editions of this book, that it's like asking you, “What do you think is best for America?” The campaign and ideas of this politician or this one or this one. And she asks you a bunch of questions and from there tells you where you are in your White identity formation [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Wow. That's amazing.Sy Hoekstra: It's really, “how would you feel if somebody said this about White people?” whatever. Tons of different questions, it's kind of like taking a personality test, but it's about you and your race [laughs]. That's just a resource that I would offer to people as a way to do what this conversation reminded me my people all very much need to do.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: I just talked for a long time, Jonathan, we need to end. But do you have any thoughts [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: No. I was just going to say this podcast is a great 101 and a great 301.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Like it spans the spectrum. So please do if you haven't, go listen to the podcast. Yeah, just check it out. It's very, very good.Outro and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: We will have that in the show notes along with all the other links of everything that we had today. Okay, that's our first full episode of season four. We're so glad that you could join us. This was a great one full of a lot of great stuff. Our theme song as always is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. The show is produced by all of you, our lovely subscribers, and our transcripts are by Joyce Ambale. Thank you all so much for listening, we will see you in two weeks with the great Brandi Miller.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ and you call us citizens/ and you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Randy Woodley: You know, I think I've said before Jesus didn't give a damn about doctrine. Excuse me. Jesus didn't give a darn about doctrine. I don't know if that'll go through or not.[laughter]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Allison Sanders to talk about tradwives. They dive into the history of this broader idea and the ways that it reinforces the binaries, roles, and expectations that build what we know of as purity culture. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

Season four starts next week! Hear Jonathan and Sy talk about:-            What to expect this year from the show during this election cycle-            A reintroduction to everything KTF does, and why we do it-            How we really, genuinely need your support right now, and ways you can helpCredits-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our newsletter and bonus episodes at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Production, editing, and transcript by Sy Hoekstra.TranscriptWhat's Coming in Season Four[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending — F#, B, F#, E, D#, B — with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.” After a brief pause, the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice! I'm Sy HoekstraJonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Welcome to season 4!Sy Hoekstra: We are so excited to have you here. We're going to be doing something very special for this season during this presidential election cycleJonathan Walton: Yes, we're going back to our roots. The first thing we did with the company that makes this podcast, KTF Press, was publish an anthology in 2020 called Keeping the Faith. It had 36 authors writing political theology and personal stories to explain their opposition to Christian support for Donald Trump.Sy Hoekstra: We called it an anthology of dissent, a record of resistance toward the church's political witness in America. And our guests this season are going to be authors from that book, talking about what they wrote and how they're thinking about their faith and the political landscape now.Jonathan Walton: You've heard some of the writers from the book on this show before, like Dani Espiritu, Scott Hall, and Wissam Al-Saliby. And we're excited to bring you Dr. Randy Woodley, Brandi Miller, Mark Scandrette, Rasool Berry, and many more this season. The first episode is dropping this upcoming Friday, May 24, with Dr. Woodley.Sy Hoekstra: We've recorded some of these already, and we're really excited to get them to you in the coming months.What We Do at KTF, and WhySy Hoekstra: But before we jump into this season, we want to give you all a bit of a refresher on what exactly it is we do at KTF Press and why we do it. And the reason that we want to tell you all that is because we really need your support right now.Jonathan Walton: That's right. We do everything that we do to help people seek Jesus, confront injustice, and resist the idols of the American church that got us to the religious and political mess we're in right now. This show is all about hearing personal stories and informed discussions to help you do just that.Sy Hoekstra: And our weekly newsletter is where we curate media to help you in your discipleship and learning about politics and policy. You get commentary from us on issues important to our national discourse, and we also give you something each week to help you stay grounded and hopeful. Plus, you get news about what's going on with us at KTF, previews of this show, and a whole lot more.Jonathan Walton: We also write articles on similar subjects for our website, we have the anthology, and Tamice Spencer-Helms' incredible memoir we published last year, Faith Unleavened, about how White Jesus nearly destroyed her faith, and how she left him behind to find her way to liberation and the real Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: And we do all this with a couple things in mind. First, we always pay the most attention to marginalized voices, the people who our society oppresses and pushes to the side. We had a whole discussion on this in our very first episode, so if you want to learn more, you can always listen to that. But simply put, The opinions of people who a society favors get the most airtime, but people who a society harms and ignores actually have the clearest insight about the character of that society. And so if you want to understand the world around you better, you have to talk to marginalized people. Plus, God's ministry throughout the Bible is primarily directed toward the poor and oppressed, and his disciples primarily come from them. So you just have to train yourself to learn from people whose perspectives come from that angle on the world if you want to follow Jesus.Jonathan Walton: Another value of ours is trying to be both kind and humane toward people we disagree with, while remaining uncompromising about our own views. We believe, despite all the evidence on the internet to the contrary, that this is in fact possible [Sy chuckles]. But it requires a lot of intentional growth in the area of emotional health, so we talk a lot about that too.Sy Hoekstra: The good thing is, we've been practicing all this for a long time. We have been friends for 18 years now, talking and learning about these subjects together, and having our own sometimes very strong disagreements. We have had to learn how to talk across lines of difference with each other in real time as friends and followers of Jesus. Fortunately, we have been able to do that in communities with friends and mentors who are doing the same thing. On top of that, Jonathan has been doing justice ministry for well over a decade, and my career before this was in law and advocacy, and we want to just share all of this experience with you.We Need Your Support to Keep KTF RunningJonathan Walton: So, if all that sounds like something you can get behind, here is our ask of you. We need you to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber to our Substack. We have to get more subscribers if we're going to keep this going. So, if you can afford it, please subscribe. If you can't, just write to us at info@ktfpress.com and we'll give you a free or discounted subscription, whatever you want, no questions asked. Because we want as many people as possible to have access. But if you can, please go to KTFPress.com and sign up. On top of supporting what we do, you get access to all our many bonus episodes, and coming soon, monthly subscriber chats with me and Sy. Also, if you're already a paid subscriber, consider upgrading to our founding member tier, which will immediately get you a free book.Sy Hoekstra: We've been doing all this podcasting and writing and book publishing as a side project for a while now, and we have some incredible subscribers supporting what we do. And they are covering the costs of what it takes to produce this show, to keep the websites running, and pay a bunch of our regular business expenses. We actually would not be here without them. But we've kept those expenses very low. I don't know if you know, but we're not recording this from KTF Press Studios, right next door to NPR. This company is two people with some basic sound equipment that our subscribers paid for, and our laptops. We occasionally get help from other people with laptops. We work in whatever room is available in our homes that are full of other people. At least once, that room was my closet.Jonathan Walton: [laughs]The point is this might sometimes sound like an established operation, but it's a little scrappier than you think. And I think you would agree work like this should not be a side project.Sy Hoekstra: To be fully transparent, I cannot afford to keep doing this as a side project. Jonathan does this work around his full-time job, but if I'm going to keep putting as much time into this as I do, which is a lot, I'm going to have to stop working for free.Jonathan Walton: So here's what we're doing. We're leveling up our branding and designs. You may have seen that on our website and in our emails. We'll also be doing some advertising, and of course continuing to put our best work here. But we need you to do your part!Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan, how many paid subscribers do we have right now?Jonathan about 120.Sy Hoekstra: And how many do we want to have by the end of this year?Jonathan Walton: One thousand! [laughs]Sy Hoekstra: So we have just a few more to go. Please, please go to KTFPress.com and sign up. Don't wait.Jonathan Walton: And there are a few free things you can do apart from subscribing. That newsletter we mentioned is free, so sign up for our free mailing list if you can't become a paid subscriber, and forward that thing so many times. That's also at KTFPress.comSy Hoekstra: You can also give this show a five-star review on Apple or Spotify, and say something nice about us in a review if you're on Apple Podcasts. You can also like our Facebook page and follow us on Instagram and Threads. But to reiterate, the most important thing we need you to do is go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. By the way, cool new trick. If you're listening to this on Spotify, just go back to the bonus episode right before this one in the feed, click the button to unlock that episode, and it will take you right where you need to go to Subscribe.Outro and OuttakeJonathan Walton: Alright everyone, thank you so much for listening. Once again, we're starting season 4 this upcoming Friday, May 24, with Dr. Randy Woodley. We will see you then![The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Okay, [singing a made-up tune] let me hit the button to stop this recording.Jonathan Walton: [commanding, in an English accent] Cease recording. Immediately.Sy Hoekstra: [with fake dramatic anger] Cease it now! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Dr. Sara Moslener, author of Virgin Nation to do a survey of the politics and history of purity culture. They discuss that purity culture, birthed out of political movements, entrenches us more deeply in racism, social control mechanisms, and conservative politics.You can find her work here and the Pure White Podcast here. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress.@reclaimingmytheologyTaking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this epsiode, Brandi is joined by registered psychologist Dr. Hillary McBride to talk about desire. They discuss the ways the desire is tamped in Christian space in ways the stunt or delay development and ways that we can come back to ourselves and our desire as we disengage with purity culture.You can find her work here and the Holy Hurt Podcast here.  You can also find her on socials at @hillaryliannamcbrideIf you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by D.L. Mayfield to talk about Christian romance- the industry, the reality, and the implications. They explore the tenants and construction of Christian romance as well as some ways that we can rebuild under less oppressive and limiting ideologies. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Sarah Bessey to talk about how we hold onto our spirituality and personhood when we find ourselves outside of the spaces and ideas that formed us. You can find Sarah's work, including her new book here and can find her online at @sarahbesseyIf you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode,  Brandi is joined by Erna Kim Hackett (@liberatedtogether) to explore the concept of virginity, its cultural implications, its theological roots and how it separates us from ourselves, others, and inhibits our relationship with God...maybe just not how we thought it would. Erna Kim Hackett is the founder and leader of Liberated Together where she creates community for Women of Color, Queer WOC, and non-binary folks who have been shaped by Christianity to explore liberated and embodied theology, decolonized approaches to social justice, and radical solidarities across ethnic lines. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

*note- due to a technical glitch, Brandi's audio clips and cuts a bit, our apologies for the technical issues and thank you for your patience.___In this episode Brandi is joined by author, theologian, and poet Camille Hernandez to talk about the ways that military metaphors and ideologies shape how we are taught to engage with our own bodies, romance, and sex. They discuss the ways that violence is folded into the core of how many of us were taught to think about these things. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by E Kole to talk about consent- what it is, how we learn it, and the places in out spirituality that keep us from being able to do it well. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress.@reclaimingmytheologyTaking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode Brandi is joined by psychologist, professor, and preacher Dr. Chanequa Walker-Barnes to talk about Sacred Self Care. They discuss the ways that our distorted views of God and self prevent us from being able to create spaces of care and groundedness in out lives. They specifically talk about the ways that purity culture create and perpetuates narratives that make it deeply challenging to care for our holistic selves.*Explicit designator for strong language You can find Dr. Chanequa podcast Meditating with Dr. Chanequa here and can find her recently released book Sacred Self- Care where ever books are sold. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode Brandi is joined by artist and creative Jenny Hall to talk about the role that symbols and images play in our conception of purity culture/ ourselves in it. They explore images, new and old, and ask how engaging with new or new to us images in and our of the scriptures might contribute to our healing. You can find Jenny's work and sign up for her Creative Spirituality class here. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or tell others about the show. You can help make the show happen financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. If you have comments, questions, or requests please contact us at reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com or through the contact page at reclaimingmytheology.org.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

Chief Eddie Buchanan talks with Brandi Miller from South Metro Fire and Captain  Jeremy Maners from Carmel Fire  about leveraging data related to Fire Department minimum staffing, scheduling, PTO accrual, and overtime! Sponsored by Magnegrip

A HUGE thank you to Alexa Barkley for her encouragement and wisdom.  She has provided some resources and references that you might find helpful:Here is the article that tells a few more/different details of Alexa's storyAlexa's correspondence with the Canadian Baptists of Ontario & Quebec (CBOQ)demonstrates very typical behavior for organizations that are lacking trauma-informed care principles and are oriented around a desire to protect the institution instead of orienting around making the situation right.  This correspondence also demonstrates the effort so many survivors go to in order to 1) be heard, 2) be grace-filled, and 3) use their voice to educate decision-makers.  It is nothing short of heroic.Jaymie Friesen of the Mennonite Central Committee is part of Alexa's circle of support and her letter to the CBOQ is a powerful demonstration of truth-telling and holding decision-makers accountable for their responsibilities.  It is educational and not abusive, but it pulls no punches.  The Mennonites also have an Abuse Prevention site that is incredibly insightful and helpful.  It demonstrates incredible transparency in naming abusers who have had credible claims brought against them.  Well done, MCC.Into Account is a powerhouse USA-based advocacy organization that Alexa referenced & that Hagar's Voice highly recommends for survivors seeking advocacy or decision-makers seeking guidance.#ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find Healing is a resource Alexa mentioned.  She also recommends You Are Your Own – A Reckoning with the Religious Trauma of Evangelical Christianity & Pure – Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free & Putting Trials on Trial – Sexual Assault and the Failure of the Legal Profession  Each of these books is available in multiple formats. Those interested in the connection between purity culture and abuse might consider the thus-themed season of the Reclaiming My Theology podcast by Brandi Miller.  This season ran from Nov 2022 through May 2023 and is an in-depth autopsy of the theologies behind the purity movement and the ramifications of it still playing out today on more than just gender dynamics.  This podcast can be found on all major platforms.If you'd like to connect with Alexa, you can find her on Instagram @alexa.m.barkley or Facebook as alexa.barkley.7

In this episode the tables are turned as Erna Kim Hackett (@liberatedtogether) dialouges with Brandi, the host of Reclaiming My Theology about what the last three years of this work have meant, what we have learned together, how Creator has shown up, and where we are going. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe, leave a review, or tell a friend about the show. You can also support us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited, and produced by Brandi Miller- our music is by Sanchez Fair Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Bianca Mabute-Louie (@beyonkz) to talk about fetishization. They discuss the ways that this particular form of reducing people to singular attributes creates the context for violence, assimilation, and ultimately a separation from self, others, and God. If you want to support Reclaiming My Theology you can rate and review the podcast, it goes a long way to helping others find the podcast. You can also join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair.Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress.@reclaimingmytheologyTaking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Elizabeth Moraff to talk about the intersection of purity culture and privacy. They talk about the theologies used to violate privacy as well as the role of privacy in out holistic becoming. If you like what you hear you can subscribe, rate, review, or join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, mixed, and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair.Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi (she/her) is joined by Tamice Spencer-Helms (she/they) to talk about partner violence. They discuss the ways that Evangelical Christian theolgoy both creates the context for and a limit to the pathways out of partner and domestic violence. They talk about redemptive views of God that center survivors and provide frameworks for those in the midst it it and those who want to be of support. If you are currently unsafe and in need of resources, the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence is a solid place to start a journey toward getting help. You can find Tamice's work at  Sub:Culture,  her personal website,  or on IG at @tamicenamaespeaks. You can find her book Faith Unleavened: The Wilderness Between Trayvon Martin and George Floyd  here!If you want to support Reclaiming My Theology you can rate and review the podcast, it goes a long way to helping others find the podcast. You can also join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair.Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Ben and Andrea Emerson to talk about the impacts of purity culture on relationships- marriage in particular. They talk about the expectations given about and before marriage and the ways that the tools we are often given in our faith experiences fail to set us up for health and enjoyment in our relationships. If you want to support the show, you can by following, rating, reviewing, or joining us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited, and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

“I say that we're always five to ten decisions away from becoming the people that we judge. I think many of us who internally boo at this young man are probably closer to him than we think." Sermon by Brandi Miller from worship at 10:00 a.m. on Sunday, March 5, 2023 at All Saints Church, Pasadena. Readings: I Kings 17:8-16, II Corinthians 9:6-13 and Matthew 14:13-21. Watch the sermon on YouTube.    Follow All Saints Church on Twitter @ASCpas. Like us on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/AllSaintsPasadena/. Check out our YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/user/allsaintspasadena1/videos. Subscribe, like, get notifications every time we post! Enjoy our extensive archive of stimulating and inspiring content! Donate to support the mission and ministries of All Saints at https://allsaints-pas.org/donate/donate-now/.

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Arielle Estoria about self-suppression, how we learn it, the impacts it has, and how our theology/relationship to got gets warped in the in between. They also discuss her new book The Unfolding: An Invitation to Come Back to Yourself and the various ways it can help us to move forward in this journey to and with ourselves and God. If you want to support reclaiming my theology, you can share with a friend, follow, subscribe or join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited, and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Marty Solomon of the BEMA podcast, to talk about the questions that we are often led to ask about the bible, sex, dating, purity culture, and relationship to one another. They explore both interpretation strategies and specific texts to offer pathways for engaging the text that go beyond the flat readings that we have been given. You can find Marty's work and his recently released book "Asking Better Questions of the Bible"  here. If you like what you hear you can follow, rate, review or join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced, and edited but Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

Welcome to the Kinship Collective Podcast, a conversation where people who have been wounded by faith can reimagine it together! This week we get to hang with Lucca Petrucci! Lucca (he/him/his) is a Youth Inclusion and Empowerment Coach and Speaker, the host of the podcast Free to Be with Lucca, a Brand and Marketing Consultant, and an LGBTQIA+ Advocate. Our conversation centers on the reality that it sometimes costs a lot and hurts a lot to be authentic! Lucca shares his journey of coming out and how he has learned to “belong to himself”. Then we ask some questions about Romans 5:3-5 and an invitation to patient self discovery and integrity! Learn more about Lucca at https://www.luccapetrucci.com/ and you can follow him on Instagram @lucca_petrucci. Kinship Night March 4 On Saturday March 4th we are partnering with All Saints Church Pasadena to host another Kinship Night with Brandi Miller, the host of the “Reclaiming My Theology” podcast and Mark Chase, The Associate Rector at All Saints. We intend to have a conversation about how we can decolonize and deconstruct our faith without getting totally disoriented! Registration will be live soon! Stay tuned on our website!

In this episode, Brandi is joined by friend Jonathan Walton to talk about man, masculinity, and purity culture, specifically the ways that men are taught a theology of dominance, exploitation, emotional stuntedness and repression in the teachings of purity culture (and porn). They explore the impacts on women, non-binary and trans folks, and on men themselves. You can find Jonathan online at @foreverfocused or his publishing company Keeping the Faith (KTF) Press at https://www.ktfpress.com/If you would like to support the work of Reclaiming My Theology, you can follow, rate, review, tell your friends about the show or support us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited, and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair  Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

Brandi Miller, chief storyteller for Quest Church, op-ed writer for the Huffington Post, and podcast creator for "Reclaiming My Theology", sits down with Tim to discuss her journey. Brandi explains some of her background. Tim and Brandi discuss her conversion to Christianity and her deconstruction journey. Tim and Brandi discuss what she's doing now. Lastly, Tim and Brandi examine how conservative media influenced Conservative Evangelicals and how white supremacy underlies that journey. Follow us on Instagram: @thenewevangelicals Get tickets to our live event with Bradley Onishi in Philly Support our work Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Chrissy Davies to talk about modesty. They discuss the ways that theology and Christian culture create the context for shame, disconnection, and dissociation while not actually connecting us more deeply with God. NEWS: RECLAIMING MY THEOLOGY IS MOVING TO A BI-WEEKLY (2x/month) SCHEDULE. We hope to use the time to increase quality at RMT across the board and to give more energy and time to developing new things for all listeners, and in particular, folks in our pattern community. If you want to support the show you can just keep listening, tell a friend about it, follow, rate and review or join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this episode, Brandi is joined by sex therapist and educator Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers to talk about sexual shame. They discuss how theology, research, Christian culture and more harm our sense of self and relationship to others.  They also seek to provide pathways toward healing, self awareness, and education in the midst of purity culture. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe, rate, review, or just keep listening. If you want to support the show financially, you can do so on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. Taking our theology back from ideas and systems that oppress. @reclaimingmytheology

In this re-released episode of Reclaiming My Theology from American Politics (2020), Brandi is joined by the executive director of Christians for Social Action, Nikki Toyama-Szeto. They discuss politics: what politics are, how Christians often operate in them, and alternative values to guide our journey of this season. Please send questions to reclaimingmytheology@gmail.com, subscribe, rate, and review if you like what you hear and join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology.Reclaiming My Theology is recorded and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. 

In this epsidoe Brandi is joined by Angie Hong of Kinship Commons to talk about race, white supremacy, and coloniality in purity culture. They talk about the ways that race and racism are woven into how Christians define purity and about ways to move forward as we reclaim our theology. You can find Angie on all things internet at @angiekayhong and angiekayhong.com. You can find the article that she wrote for The Atlantic, The Flaw at the Center of Purity Culture.You can support the work of Reclaiming My Theology by joining us on patreon (patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology), telling your friends about the show and leaving us a review!Reclaiming My Theology is recorded and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Patricia Taylor to talk about the unique ways that Christian spaces create, uphold, and perpetuate rape culture. Note: This conversation is generally inexplicit and shys away from descriptions of violence beyond general facts. But even so, they talk about issues that many of us have been impacted by and thus we invite folks to listen and hold themselves with caution and tenderness.  You can find Patty online:InstagramYou can find the legacy trip she mentions here. If you like and want to support the work of Reclaiming My Theology, can follow, review/rate, or share with a friend. You can also join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. 

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Karla Mendoza to unpack from of the culture tenants of purity culture. They discuss how music, community formation, media, and so much more make up the extra-biblical culture of purity culture. You can find Karla's work at: El Cafecito w/  Karla Podcast You can find her writing here. And you can find her recommended podcast Dear Soft Black Woman  here.If you like and want to support the work of Reclaiming My Theology, can follow, review/rate, or share with a friend. You can also join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair. 

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Jazzy Johnson to take a look not just what the bible says about sex, but also how that question fundamentally shapes how we approach the bible in our search for a sexual ethic. If you like what you hear, please rate, review, shoot us a 5-star review, share with a friend or join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited, and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair.

In this episode before we take a break for the summer, Brandi is joined by Jonathan Martin  (@jonathanamartin) to talk about how we encounter God, ourselves, and genuine community as we walk away from ideas, communities, and structures that formed us. You can find his new book The Road Away From God  where ever books are sold. If you want to support RMT you can do so by continuing to listen, sharing, rating, reviewing or supporting us financially on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, edited, and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair.

In this foretaste of what is to come in the upcoming season on purity culture, Brandi and joined by Dr. Amy-Jill Levine to talk about what purity is in Jewish life and though and where Christians go wrong in thinking about both purity and purity culture. If you like what you here or just want to support, you can do so are patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology or simply keep listening, sharing, rating, and reviewing. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced, and edited by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair.

In this episode, Brandi is joined by the prolific women of truths table to talk all things their new book, whole life discipleship, and how learning with and from Black women might make us all more free. If you haven't listened to Truths Table, you can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts and you can find their book Trutht Table: Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation wherever book are sold! If you like what you hear please leave us a review, share with a friend, or join us on Patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded. edited, and produced by Brandi Miller, our music is by Sanchez Fair.

In this episode, Brandi is joined by Benita Ki of Civic Roasters, to talk about submission and how a theology of resistance might align us more with the way of Jesus and put us in solidarity with our neighbors and our greater collective well-being. You can support Benita and her work on the ground by joining their crowdfunding campaign or by buying their coffee  https://www.civicroasters.com/crowdfunding.  You can find them online at @civicroasters. If you like what you hear, you can follow, rate, review, or just keep listening and telling folks about the show. You can also join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology. Reclaiming My Theology is recorded, produced, and edited by Brandi Miller. Our music is by Sanchez Fair.