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01:15 - Intro, Coffee Convo 02:00 - Challenges that MH has had this week 05:00 - Tracking KPI's 14:00 - Tom Brady and Bill Belichick 18:00 - The Great Resignation & the Future of Hiring 21:10 - What a Bonus Program Looks Like 33:40 - Employee Development & Incentives 48:15 -  Passing on Costs & Wage Increases 51:00 - Get in Touch Quotable Moments “There's not a lack of work in construction. The demand is there. But you're fighting hiring efforts because of the remote jobs being offered.” – K “There's only 3 ways to get experience – pay someone for their experience, go and get the experience, or someone pays you through a training program to get the experience.” – K “For smaller companies, it can be a challenge to know all those numbers to be able to pay 30% above break even to the employees as a bonus.” – K “The number one reason for leaving is unclear expectations… which stems from having an idiot boss.” – M Resources Hiring Post COVID Episode Building an Org Chart Employee Onboarding Episode Check us out on Youtube Follow us on social media: LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, The Countdown Have questions? Email us! More from Martin theprofitproblem.com annealbc.com    martin@anealbc.com  LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from Khalil benali.com  khalil@benali.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from The Cashflow Contractor Ask Us A Question Sign Up For A Free Consultation thecashflowcontractor.com  info@thecashflowcontractor.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 71 Transcription Kaelyn: Today we're talking about villains and antagonists, and why they're not actually the same thing, except in the cases that they are. Rekka: Yes, exactly. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Perfect. I think that nails it. Sometimes they're not the same thing, sometimes they are. K: Yeah, and we'll kinda get to this but, most villains are antagonists - most, not all. Not all antagonists are villains. And in fact you will likely, in any given story, have multiple antagonists, not all of whom are the villain. I went through and really dug up all of this stuff; shockingly, the word ‘hero' is the one with the most definitions attached to it, and most different con - R: We're not talking about heroes today! We're not! K [overlapping]: Well we - but we have to, because we don't get villains without heroes, and we don't get antagonists without protagonists. Both villains and antagonists are defined and really only exist so that they can oppose or create conflict for the hero or protagonist. It kinda makes you wonder, if left to their own devices, maybe they're just a mad scientist in a lab somewhere. R: Maybe they're the hero of their own story. K: Yeah, and then suddenly someone shows up to fight them and now they're the bad guy. [laughing] R: “I was perfectly lawful and good until you showed up!” K: Exactly, yes. The basic difference between a villain and an antagonist is that an antagonist is somebody who is there to contend or oppose the main character, typically the protagonist of the story. They're there to create opposition. A villain is doing that, but they're evil. R: [laughs] K [laughing]: What they're doing is, the opposition that they're creating is either causing harm, causing suffering, will destroy the human race. It could be something more on a micro scale, where they've kidnapped the daughter of the main character; maybe they're trying to get their lemonade stand shut down so that they can sell lemonade that's gonna turn people into lizard people. An antagonist at the surface is just somebody who's doing things that's causing problems for the protagonist. They don't necessarily have to be evil. R: They could just be a rival. K: Yeah. Or any number of other things we're gonna get to here, but. And in fact as I mentioned, as you're reading a book, you're frequently gonna come across antagonists that are not actually evil. There's gonna be an antagonist who's the villain who may be evil at some point, not always, but there will be people that are antagonists. I will use an example that we love to use: Gideon the Ninth. Harrow definitely serves as an antagonist to Gideon through the book. But Harrow is not evil. R: Right. K: That's a great example of a villain operating without the audience knowing that the protagonist is coming into direct conflict with them because, we don't really find out who the villain of the story is until the very very end of it. Then we can look back and go like ‘Ah yes I see all of these things now.' The villain in the story, and spoilers if you haven't read Gideon the Ninth, but also if you listen to this podcast and you still haven't read it - R: You obviously are never going to read it at this point. K [laughing]: Yeah. The villain turns out to be Dulcinia, who is impersonating another character - and I stayed away, when writing notes for this and getting into the philosophical of what is evil and what is not - for these purposes we're gonna call her motives evil, in that she is trying to hunt down and destroy a lot of different people for her own reasons. The conflict that we come into there actually causes the antagonist and the protagonist in this, Gideon and Harrow, to sort of team up to oppose the actual villain, which by the way is a very common writing trope. Antagonists are a necessary component to any story even if they are not the source of central conflict. R: Yeah, because - and I know you're gonna lean into this example - but in Harry Potter, Draco Malfoy feels like he is central to everything in Harry's life, even though most of the time he just shows up to spew some awful thing he's overheard his parents say and then go away again. K: Draco is a good example of an antagonist who goes through a lot of different forms. Draco in the first few books of the series, he kinda shows up to make some comments and then leaves. He's not really doing much. Even in the second book when he's talking about the Chamber of Secrets and the heir of Slytherin and he actually is sitting around going ‘God I wish there was a way for me to help him' - well, okay, that's what minions do. Small antagonists. R: Most of the time everything that Draco Malfoy does or says is just to reinforce the fact that he's a jerk. K: Yeah, Draco just sorta pops up to remind all of us that there's Voldemort out there and his followers are terrible, because we don't see or interact directly with Voldemort for a lot of these books, so Draco's there to kind of remind us that he's out there. But then we finally get to book six, when Draco is given a very specific task to do: kill Dumbledore. And those listening at home, ‘okay well doesn't that make him a villain?' Well - does it? Because first of all he doesn't really actually wanna do this, but he has to. Second, he doesn't do it. At the end, he's not the one who carries this out. So again, everything's relative here. Because to Harry, he is just this thing that Harry feels he needs to track down and find out what's happening. You could go so far as to argue that Harry is creating his own conflict here, because if he just left Draco alone and went about his life trying to find these Horcruxes, things would've gone a lot smoother. R: [laughs] K: Dumbledore keeps telling Harry, ‘Hey. I got the Draco situation under control, don't worry about it.' Not in so many words and maybe if he had, again, things would've gone differently - R: You know what, communicating clearly is the antagonist of a plot. K: Okay. So that's interesting that you say that, because antagonists are not always people. R: Mhm. K: Antagonists can be certain external factors that the protagonist has to contend with. A good example of this is nature, in something like the movie Castaway. It's not evil - R [overlapping]: Okay. I was gonna say Deep Impact, like the meteor is not a villain, the meteor is an antagonist. K: Yeah. Exactly. It's not evil. The meteor or nature or something is not saying like, ‘Yes, I will destroy the world, and then also Tom Hanks.' [chuckles] R: If it can twirl its mustache, it might be a villain. K: It's just there, and it's something that the characters have to contend with. It can also be something supernatural; the thing I thought of off the top of my head was The Nothing in NeverEnding Story. It's operating unconsciously, if you will, in the sense that it doesn't seem to have nefarious purposes. It's just existing, and it's just growing. The characters are opposing it, they're trying to find a way to stop it, but it's not evil in and of itself. R: A hero trying to stop global warming is not fighting a villain. Unless - K: Ah, there's some villains in there. R: Yeah never mind, I take all that back. K: An antagonist can also be something like a society or an unjust system that the hero has to live and function in. The example that came to mind was Les Miserables. The main character, Jean Valjean, is sent to prison for stealing a loaf of bread because his sister and her children were starving. And we as the audience are meant to understand here that, while Javert - I believe is the name of the officer - is doing his duty by arresting him because he did commit theft, we understand that it is the dire circumstances of his society and his country that caused him to do this. His whole struggle and story is not only trying to lift himself up and overcome this system, but trying to one, make good on people he had hurt and things he had done in the process of this, but two, help other people that are also stuck in this system by hopefully coming up with a way to better it in the long run. I won't say overthrow it because he actively avoids that whole - R [overlapping]: Right. K: - part of the process in this story, but he is in his own way trying to get things to a better place. R: Yeah. K: I went through and just like, some ideas of antagonists who are not necessarily villains. We talked about Draco Malfoy - I will go to my grave saying that Draco is not a villain, he is first convenient exposition, and then an antagonist and an unwilling one at that. One of the ones I also thought of was Catra, from - R: Ah! K: - the first half of She-Ra, she kind of serves as sort of like a minion antagonist. R: Uh-huh. K: Her character evolves, and we'll talk about that as we continue to go through this. But she's an excellent example of just an antagonist. R: And again kind of like that rival thing - K: Yes. R: - like in anime or certain role playing video games, you always have the rival show up, and then by the end you are working with them to fight the actual villain. K: Another category is the conflict creators: people who are not evil, they don't have nefarious plots, but they're making the life of the main character unbearable. Mr. Darcy - R [overlapping]: [giggling] K: - from Pride and Prejudice is an excellent example of this. I threw the Lannisters on the list, and I'm sticking with the books - R: Right. K [laughing]: Not the TV show. R: So in this version, the Lannisters haven't managed to accomplish much yet. K: Yeah, exactly. Because, really, what are they doing? Are their motives evil? No, their motives are promoting and securing the prosperity and wellbeing of their family as much as possible. Now, they're doing things that again, evil being relative, we might look at this and go ‘oh they're evil.' I will choose the beheading of Ned Stark as a good example there. That's only evil to us because we like Ned Stark. R: Right. K: Because we look at him and see a good, just man who is being undone by his own kindness and mercy. The Lannisters look at him and go, ‘this guy's an idiot, and not only that he's a threat.' R: Mhm. K: ‘If we send him to the wall do you think his family is gonna go, ‘ah ok no problem, no harm no foul.'' Yeah, Joffrey's an impulsive little shit, who should not have done that and obviously messed up the plans of a lot of different third parties there, but from the perspective of the Lannisters he's right. R: Mhm. K: There was no reason to spare Ned Stark's life. R: It does start with the two incestuous Lannisters pushing a child out of a window though, so. K: Yes, and we can - that's a whole other episode about - R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: Well, trust me, I could do a whole episode about the evolution in literature, writing, and various media of using sexually-based components of character's personalities to demonstrate that they're evil. R: Mhm. K: But yes, this isn't to say that Jamie and Cersei themselves aren't evil, but the Lannisters as a whole are conflict creators. R: Okay. K: And within there they're all opposing each other in certain ways, but they're all kind of presenting a united front. R: The Lannister corporate machine. K: Yeah exactly. Casterly Rock incorporated. They're all presenting a united front in the promotion and wellbeing of their own family. There's obviously a lot of stuff going on there that we the audience know about, but pretend you're an outside observer in Westeros. Apart from some slight patricide - R: [laughs] K: - but that's okay, because that was the member of the family who we just barely put up with and obviously there was something wrong with him and we probably should've thrown him down a well a long time ago. R: Are you talking about Tyrion or are you talking about Tywin - K: Both, but from the perspective of the Lannisters, Tyrion. [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: You can recover from that one, because of course there was something off about him, look at him. Never mind that he's the smartest and, actually, most caring member of their family, but y'know. That's not important, apparently. I made up an antagonist category that I'm calling “general pains in the ass.”  R: [laughing] K: [laughs] Where they are not necessarily doing anything, but their existence is just infuriating to the point that it's creating conflict for the protagonist. The one that I always love to point to is Gary from Pokémon. R: Mm. K: Who's just Ash's rival but it's a very hilariously one-sided rivalry.  R: Right, right. K: [laughs] The other one that I think is very good is actually: Sailor Moon, Tuxedo Mask in the anime. Because he is also trying to get the rainbow crystals.  R: Right. K: In a pain-in-the-ass antagonist - I would throw Rei in there. R: [laughs] Yeah, there you go. K: Again, the anime - the manga did not go into this, but they're constantly fighting over who's gonna be the better this-or-that, and who's doing the better job, and again, it creates conflict for Usagi because Rei is hyper-confident and very good at this, and Usagi is not, at all.  R: Right. It has more to do with Rei just constantly criticizing her and making her progression slower than anything else.  K: Yeah, you'll notice there's a lot of overlap here because apart from being a general pain in the ass in that scenario, Rei is also a conflict creator.  R: Yeah. K: The last one that gets a little philosophical is the protagonist themselves. Holden Caulfield is of course the standout example here, but I would take anybody that can't get out of their own way and put them on this list. One of the thoughts I came up with was Anakin Skywalker.  R: Okay. K: More with the Clone Wars TV show as a better example of that, but you certainly see it through the prequels as well. Has a set of morals and code that he lives by that is in direct conflict with what the Jedi are teaching him and telling him to do. R: Mhm. K: And that's an excellent case study into a descent into villany by having a singular goal and taking more and more extreme measures to meet it. R: Like Draco, there's somebody that is coaching him and trying to lead him in a direction that he wouldn't have chosen on his own almost at any point.  K: I'm not sure I agree with that, because what we see Anakin do over and over again, his singular motivation-- and this is, by the way, his antagonistic component-- is “protect my friends and loved ones.” R: Mhm. K: And so he's willing to take more and more extreme measures that in some cases are going to get him in trouble, he's going to have to go in front of the Jedi Council and go ‘I'm really sorry I did that, but I did save Obi-Wan, so I think it all works out in the end.' And you've got Yoda silently screaming in his head, going ‘This is not what Jedi are supposed to do, this is dangerous.' R: Yeah. K: But then also, it gets him to a point where his moral code is coming into conflict with what is important to him. So, yes I killed a bunch of people on a spaceship, but I saved all of the Senators and the Jedi on it. Well, now I've killed a bunch of children because I thought it was going to save my pregnant wife.  R: Mhm. K: And we're getting to a point where he can't differentiate those two things from one another because in the end you're still saving something or someone important.  R: Right. But I still think that - K [overlapping]: Oh, yes, having Palpatine - R [overlapping]: that progression -  K: - breathing in his ear for the whole time was not helping. [laughing] R: Yeah, that was an outside influence that encouraged that progression. K: Absolutely, yeah. So, that's another antagonistic force - that is an external factor, people attempting to influence the protagonist.  R: Mhm. K: So, we talked a lot about antagonists, and as we said, most villains - not all - most villains are antagonists but not all antagonists are villains. In order to be a villain, you gotta be evil. You have to be a quote-unquote “bad guy.” And you've gotta be doing something that is bad, something that's hurting either a people, or an entity, maybe nature, or a planet itself. Typically, you've got selfish motivations here. R: Mhm. K: Sometimes you have no motivations, and we'll get into that, because the pure evil villains are one of my favorite villains. But, villains are working to destroy a heroic purpose or protagonist. They may not know that that's what they're doing, but they're doing it. Some villains go their whole story without realizing that there's somebody working their way up to opposing them, because their protagonist is such a little miniscule blip on the scale of this evil plan here that they didn't even know someone was opposing them. Villains, they have to be bad. They don't exist in a vacuum. Y'know, we used the idea of the mad scientist who doesn't know he's the bad guy -  R: Mhm. K: - until someone shows up to fight him. If that guy's just left in his lab making some little itty bitty Frankenstein monsters to run around and help him with his experiments and things, then he never leaves and nothing bad ever happens, and the new Frankenstein monsters are happy with their existence, he's not a villain! [laughs] However, if he's oppressing those little Frankenstein monster guys, or maybe they're escaping out into the world and doing bad things to people that they encounter, that then starts to move him into the realm of villain.  R: Now, what if he's in his lab and his experiments are destroying the planet outside the lab, but he never leaves and he never realizes, and the Frankenstein [ed.: monster]s are happy?  K: Yeah, so this is where it gets weird, because what he's doing is evil but he's not doing it on purpose.  R: Mm. K: I'm trying to think what the classification for that would be. An unwilling villain, essentially. Maybe more of an antagonist at that point. I'm trying to come up with an example of something where somebody shows up and informs a scientist or creator doing something that what they're doing is having a negative impact on the world around it and they had no idea.  R: There is an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where they go to a planet where the people on the planet basically take some of the children off the Enterprise because they can't have children themselves, and the crew is able to convince them that it's their very powerful computer system that's causing radiation that's preventing them from being healthy, and that it would happen to the kids too if they stayed, and so on and so forth.  K: Yeah, I'm trying to - like, this one isn't necessarily as good an example, but in Ender's Game, at the very end we find out that the conflict, this whole giant conflict, kind of began almost on a misunderstanding that the human population encountered alien life in the form of bugs that were a hivemind.  R: Mhm. K: And the bugs killed all of the humans they encountered not understanding that there was a life form out there that wasn't a hivemind. Because from their perspective, it didn't matter if a few soldiers got killed, they were just essentially vessels for the larger collective consciousness. They didn't understand the - R [overlapping]: Right. Individuality. K: Yeah. So, that started them as an antagonist, but then this war escalates and escalates and, that one I don't know if we can come up with “villain” and whether sides are evil, at that point, but. With villains, they might not even need to know that they're directly opposing the main character. The biggest difference between the villain and the antagonist is that sometimes, but not always, the antagonist forms more of a plot role. It's somebody to be there to create conflict, to move the story along, or to motivate the protagonist. It's somebody who may provide opportunities for growth for the protagonist as well, again through opposition. K: Everything is opposition and conflict for antagonists. Antagonists, they can be friends or friendly rivals of the protagonist, but they are a plot role, they are helping to develop and move the character and the stories along. A villain is a character type. This is a potentially necessary component of the story, depending on the type of story that you're telling, and they have a role to serve within that. They have to be the central point of conflict for evil reasons, to give the character something moral and good and just to fight for and overcome. If this sounds contrived, or this sounds pedantic, I don't know what to tell you because this is literature. [laughs] R: [laughing] Yeah. K: This is - you will find this across all of human history in literature, the conflict between good and evil. That is the central focus of it. And listen, what we consider good and what we consider evil varies from culture to culture, time to time. Heroes don't fit a certain set of criteria across all cultures. If you go back and read any Greek myth, and what they consider to be heroes, most of these guys were assholes. Like, really bad people. But they did heroic things, and they lived in ways that were acceptable to the ancient Greeks.  R: Mhm. K: So therefore they were heroes. The Greeks are really interesting in that they did not write what was idealized, but what was true. So even though we know that the way they conducted their society, the way they lived and acted, is abhorrent to us, at the time it was acceptable. Not only acceptable, but encouraged.  R: Right. Perhaps even seen as heroic behavior.  K [overlapping]: To that end—yeah. To that end, evil is the same way.  R: Mhm. K: I'm gonna throw one last monkey wrench [laughs] into this - the villain, as we kept saying, most villains but not all are antagonists, because sometimes the villain's the protagonist. The villain is only the antagonist when they're not the main character of the story, when they're just serving as the sense of conflict. But sometimes in stories, the villain, who is evil and is doing evil things, is the protagonist, is the main character that we're following. Two of my favorite examples of this are Light from Death Note and Dexter from Dexter. Light is a teenager with a god complex who I wouldn't even say “starts off trying to do right in the world,” because if you watch the series really he's just experimenting using bad people until he gets the plan figured out. But, for those who are unfamiliar, Death Note is an outstanding anime that I highly recommend about a teenager who comes across a notebook that is stolen from a Japanese death god and learns that the names he writes in the notebook will die. And he gets more and more specific about specifying “will die at this time,” “will die in this way,” et cetera. And enters into this whole cat-and-mouse psychological thriller thing with himself and the police that are trying to stop this serial killer that they don't understand.  R: Right. K: The whole thing turns into this god complex of him establishing rules of what he thinks are right and wrong and threatening the entire world with what would basically be instantaneous death at his whim if they don't adhere to it. So let's be clear, Light is evil. He is killing people because they're not acting the way he wants them to. But he is the main character and the protagonist of the story, and if you watch it you find yourself cheering for him outwitting the police, outwitting this detective. One of the detectives, by the way, is his father. And you're still goin,g “Come on, Light, you can get yourself out of this one!” Dexter Morgan from Dexter is another good example. Dexter is a serial killer. Dexter has kill rooms where he duct tapes people to tables, ritualistically stabs them, chops the bodies up, and drops them in the water off the coast of Miami.  R: Mhm. K: Dexter also has a complex set of morality that he adheres to, and Dexter is a little bit different because he doesn't want to do these things, he wishes he wasn't like this, but he knows that he is and there's nothing he can do about it. The books are a little stranger about this than the TV show. So he's channeling his awfulness into only killing murderers.  R: Right, and the rules of morality that he follows are not actually his morals.  K: Yeah. R: They were given to him. K: Yes. As a way to hopefully help maintain and control him. But he's still killing people. And he's still operating outside the justice system. He's very careful about gathering all the evidence and knowing “yes, this person's definitely a murderer,” but he's still serving as judge, jury, and executioner without giving anyone the benefit of due process. In his mind it doesn't matter why you killed somebody. You killed somebody. And it's coming less from a place of morality than an opportunity to be an outlet for his own base urges. Villains can be protagonists. Just because somebody is the main character of the story doesn't necessarily mean that they're good.  R: In fact, I feel a little bit better about some books thinking about it that way. [laughs] K: Yeah, absolutely. And, look, there's a whole thing you can get into with the hero vs. the antihero, and what is considered heroic and what is considered acceptable; god, I think there's been entire books written about this, with Superman as a core component there. It is very nuanced to kind of sort these things out of where the line is between hero and villain, and even more so where the line is between antagonist and villain. At what point do you stop being just an inconvenience or a pain in the butt that someone's gotta deal with and become somebody who is an active threat to not just the protagonist but potentially those around them as well? R: I know a book can have antagonists and villains, we've established several that do. Can you have a book with more than one villain?  K: Absolutely!  R: How do they not just sort of shrink down to become antagonists, then, if there's more than one? Or is it just because of their behavior being evil? K: Let's go back to another favorite of ours, Avatar: the Last Airbender. I would make the argument that both Azula and Ozai are villains. I think there are definitely people who would take Azula and put her more in the antagonist category; I disagree, she's evil, she has evil motivations. She also wants to conquer and subjugate the entire world and is willing to burn it down to do it. Hers and her father's ideologies and motives line up pretty closely. The difference is that Ozai sits in this palace and we don't see him for most of the series, and Azula's out there running amuck. R: So one can be a subordinate of the other, and they can both still be villains. K: Absolutely, yeah. And villains can work together, we got the superhero team ups on villains all the time. Dunno if you ever watched Venture Bros. - R: Yeah. K: - but the Guild of Calamitous Intent is one of my favorites, not that they're all teaming up against the same protagonist there. But yeah you absolutely can have multiple villains; one who is working under or for the other. You could have minions that are villains, as long as their intentions are evil. To that end with Avatar I would say Ty Lee and Mai are antagonists, not villains. Because they're minions who are kinda just there to do what Azula says but like, they don't necessarily want to burn down and subjugate the rest of the world, they're just sort of along for the ride. I think with multiple villains, a lot of times when you see that you're kind of dealing with an ensemble cast, and everyone's gonna sort of have a little area they have to go break off into. But not always, look at Star Wars. Yeah, Darth Vader was redeemed at the end, but you had two evil villains one right after the other, and again we're kinda seeing the same power dynamic as Azula and Ozai. K: To kind of round all of this out, villains are evil. And they usually have to have some sort of evil motivation or plan or action to match this. They might be so evil that they aren't even aware that everyone knows they're evil and is trying to stop them. Villains do not necessarily have to come in immediate direct conflict with protagonists in order to be villains. They can just be out there doing their little villain evil plan thing and not even know that someone's coming to fight them to the death until that person shows up to do so. They don't have to be directly opposed to the protagonist. In some cases, they can be the protagonist. But they've gotta have bad intentions. R: For the thrill of having bad intentions. K: Some of it can be for the thrill. The pure villains, those are my favorite ones, the ones that we never quite find out why they're doing what they're doing, they're just doing it. I use the example of Maleficent, from the original Sleeping Beauty movie, not the Angelina Jolie with lots of backstory and sympathetic character origins. Maleficent shows up, she's mad that she didn't get invited to the party but we kind of all get the impression that there's a reason she wasn't, but nobody quite knows what it is or what's going on here. R: Because we knew she would make a scene! K [laughing]: I think it's because she showed up and cursed the princess. R: So they saw that coming, you're saying. K: Yeah maybe. R: Even though the exact way to prevent that, according to Maleficent, would've been to invite her. K: The logic gets a little circular there, to be sure. [laughs] But yeah so, the villain is a character type, it's not a plot role. The villain is not always necessarily there to advance the protagonist or the plot. They certainly can, but they're not doing it directly all the time. R: Mhm. K: This is, villains are one of those sometimes-but-not-always-except-for-this-and-then-that-happens kind of situation. Antagonists on the other hand, they're not necessarily evil, they can be actually just regular cool decent normal people who happen to have a conflicting agenda with the protagonist. They just want different things. Last week we did MacGuffins. The antagonist may just be running around after their own MacGuffin, and for some reason that's causing problems for the protagonist. Maybe they also want that MacGuffin for a completely different reason, one that is mutually exclusive of what the antagonist wants; they can't team up there. Or maybe they just also wanna have the top spot at the dojo, and so they're gonna be in conflict with the protagonist there. The thing that makes the antagonist an antagonist is that they are opposed to the protagonist, and they will cause conflicts with the story's main character. It's a plot role, and it doesn't necessarily speak to the character's personality or motivations. They are there to create and cause conflict for the main character to either resolve, oppose, or fall to. R: So when I proposed this topic to you, I kind of thought of antagonists as mini-bosses and the villain as the big boss, thinking of video games and the way that's usually structured. So, this is unexpected. K [laughing]: Listen, an antagonist can be a mini-boss. It's all about motivations. R: But they can also just be that person living their life that has always bugged you because they microwaved fish in the lunchroom that one time. K: That person might be a villain. R: [laughs] Just wanna contradict me at every turn. K: I dunno, somebody who microwaves fish, that seems like evil intentions to me. [laughing] R: Look, they live with the consequences of that decision for the rest of their life. K: That's very very true. Anyway, so, Rekka any - R: Can an antagonist be the protagonist? K: No, those are mutually exclusive yeah. There's somebody who is not evil and they're the main character of the story, they're the protagonist. R: So they don't have a goatee or a mustache to twirl, and they're the main character, then they're the protagonist every time. K: Yes. The primary component for being the protagonist is that the story is about you, you're the principal character. If you are serving in an antagonistic role as the protagonist, you're still the protagonist, you're just a jerk. R: So when I get up and look in the mirror in the morning and I say, “Hey, butthead,” I'm still the protagonist of my life. K: You are both the protagonist and antagonist of your own life, yes. R: That feels accurate. K: [laughing] I think most of us are. R: Yeah. K: Well we said, a good example of an antagonist is the character themselves. R: Yep. Alright, I think I get it. K: We can always come back and talk more about it, because this one was fun to do some research on and get some thoughts together. R: So you would say that a book or a story plot requires an antagonist but doesn't necessarily require a villain. K: Yes, definitely. R: And the protagonist is completely optional. K: Yes, we're just gonna have a bunch of antagonists running around causing conflict for each other. Well, I think that's pretty much every murder mystery, so. R: So if it's a third person omniscient, and there is no main POV, we can have a book with no protagonist. Got it. K: I feel like you're trying to trick me into something but I don't know what. [laughing] R: I'm antagonizing you, I'm sorry. K: It's an important thing to do. R: As an editor you need to have your feathers ruffled every now and then. K: It creates conflict, and conflict creates growth. R: And plot. K: And plot. [laughing] But yeah thank you so much for listening everyone as always, hopefully this was helpful information, I know this was a lot of mincing of minute details, but - R: Yeah I mean maybe this was the episode you never knew you never wanted but - K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: - if there is an episode topic that you do know you want, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram @WMBcast, and you can also find us at patreon.com/WMBcast. And we'd love to hear your suggestions for topics or questions. If we have confused you in any way, then you can blame Kaelyn, and also let us know and we'll try to fix that. Thanks everyone! K: Thank you so much.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: Glitter + Ashes edited by dave ring Silk & Steel edited by Janine A. Southard  Grace's Links: Website ArtStation portfolio Twitter Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. R: Today we are talking to Grace Fong about book art. Now we've had someone on in the past to talk about cover art and art-directing a commissioned cover. However, I think Colin would forgive me for saying that you do not want Colin to do the artwork. Kaelyn: He would, yes. R: Yes. [laughing] Would you like to introduce yourself? Grace: Hi, I'm Grace! My pronouns are she/her, I work on the narrative design team over at Wizards of the Coast for Magic: The Gathering. I am also a sometimes-writer, and for the past five years I've been doing illustration work for various speculative fiction magazines, such as Strange Horizons, and some anthologies like Silk & Steel and Glitter + Ashes. K: Rekka this is our first like, real artist. R: It is difficult to get an artist on a podcast. I have tried - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - for this podcast and the previous one and it is a tricky business. So Grace, you live up to your name in showing up. G [laughing]: We don't like talking to people, we just like sitting at our computers. R: I completely understand, but doesn't mean I'm gonna give up trying, so. We've finally done it. K: Awesome. So I have been involved in some cover art not as the primary person but as the editor, where I have to look at it and go ‘yeah okay that kinda tracks with what's happening here.' We have talked a lot on this podcast before about what to expect out of your cover art, and how involved the writers are going to be in it, and the answer is typically not very, at all. So, when you're doing this, who is it that you're primarily working with? G: When I do work for magazines and books I'm usually working with the editor of the publication, so for the anthology it's usually an anthology editor, or for a short fiction magazine it is usually the art director of the magazine or the editor of the magazine. K: Can you walk us through the process of how you get started on this? They're obviously not coming to you with a blank slate, they're coming to you with a series of stories that may or may not have a theme. How do you get started working with this editor? G: It really varies, depending on the type of publication. So for anthologies, because they cover a lot of different narrative ground, usually we try to come up with an image that encapsulates the theme of the anthology. Like for Silk & Steel, I was doing one of the promotional postcards for them. We knew we were doing femme-femme, high fantasy, sword-and-scorcery kind of stuff. So I knew that those characters would have to be reflective of the book's content. Sometimes editors will give me a particular story that they aim to showcase for the publication, in which case I'll usually read the story if it's under 6,000 words, and try and come up with a composition that fits it the best that I possibly can. This is how I work with Strange Horizons. K: At what point do you usually come into the process? Are you typically involved right from the get go, or do they kind of wait until they have most of the story material? G: Usually when editors are doing their selections, they will wait until they have the written content first, because the written content is gonna dictate which artist they're gonna go to, to look for. Whose style best captures the feeling of their product? It's actually similar to traditional publication as well. The art directors at major publishing houses usually have a manuscript or summary for new debut authors whose manuscripts are already completed, and then they find an artist based off the existing manuscript. Some covers are completed beforehand, if the publishing house knows the author, knows the brand of that author and knows the kind of proposal or piece they are in the middle of working. K: You're gonna be sitting down with the editor, they're gonna give you a story that they particularly wanna feature, they're gonna give you an overall feeling or theme or - how much creative license do you get? R: I wanna interrupt because you just skipped like a really huge part: the creative brief. K: Yes. R: So what you just said, they're gonna give you a mood, they're gonna give you a theme or whatever, this is a whole step. Don't smooth it over like that. And this is something that actually Grace's got a little bit of a reputation for her knowledge on. So Grace I know you in, I believe it's November, are doing the Clarion workshop about creating a brief for a cover artist, right? G: Yes. R: So let's give this the spotlight it deserves! [laughing] G [overlapping]: Okay. K: Yeah, I've written a couple, I shouldn't have skipped over that, so apologies. G: I mean it's a specialized skill not everyone has to do them, so yeah. R: Well I definitely want to highlight it a bit, ‘cause you helped me with one - G [laughing]: That's true! R: What goes into the creative brief? Kaelyn named a couple of things, and this sort of forms the silhouette around which Kaelyn's question pivots, which is how much creative control do you get as an artist? So what's in the brief that you consider sacred, and what's in the gaps that you get to play with? G: So, that - K: Well first, and I'm sorry to cut you off - I'm sorry - can we say what - [laughing] R [overlapping]: I'm gonna interrupt you back! K: That's fair, that's fair. Can we kind of say what a creative brief is? G: Oh yeah, sure. So essentially when you are starting to work with an artist, an artist does not have the time to read an entire manuscript of 400+ pages. Their pricing is usually based off of the time that they're gonna spend creating your artwork. So you need to provide them with what is known as a creative brief, or art brief. And these are small documents that are very instructional, no more than like a page or two long, that explains the kind of image and feel that you are going for, for this assignment. The assumption is that you would have done your research and sent this brief to an artist that you think would do a good job for the publication that you're sourcing art for. So you're not gonna go to someone who does only black and white work if you want to sell your book with a big, bright, neon, 80s kind of cover. G: ‘Brief' is kind of the keyword here. You're essentially writing instructions for an artist. Don't try to lead them in using prose writing, tell them what they're gonna be drawing. It's a bit like a recipe list. So if it's a story about vampires and you want your vampire main character on the cover, you would specify that that's what you're looking for. Or, let's say you're trying to sell more literary up-market fiction, which doesn't use as many figurative images. Then you would maybe make an explanation about like ‘oh this book is about a woman's time when she was living as a child in Philadelphia.' In which case you would sometimes kind of refine that into a visual or item metaphor that you would ask the artist to render in a specific way that captures the mood and feel of the book, and leverages the imagery that's common to that market, so that it can reach the correct audience. K: Gotcha. Okay. So then you're gonna get this brief, and presumably dig into it. Do you ever receive a section of text, if there's a scene in particular that they'd like illustrated? G: Specific scene commissions tend not to be used for covers, because they're not very good at selling a publication. Scene work tends to be done for interior illustration. So these the the images that go along in the story; you look at these images as you are reading these scenes. But for the front cover you're trying to provide one image that sells the entire mood of the story to a particular audience. So in general you want to avoid using specific scenes, unless that scene comes in very early, because you don't wanna spoil the ending of the book. You only have one picture to play with for a cover, meanwhile with interiors you tend to have a series. You can do like a chapter header, like in the original Harry Potter American versions. K: It's funny you say that, because I was thinking about how I remember when the Harry Potter books were coming out, and there were always the American and the British cover versions, and everyone would be over-analyzing and try to pick apart ‘okay what's in the background here, what's happening in this scene.' But yeah because those covers were all more or less specific scenes from the book. They were a little abstract. G: Exactly, but it's - the keyword as you just said it is that they were scenes but they were abstracted. Actually tapping into that same visual metaphor that I mentioned earlier, for literary up-market, it's just because they're cramming so many things - what they're actually doing is creating one image that forces you to look harder at it to find all of those metaphorical connections with the story inside. If it has the hippogriff on it and the Chamber of Secrets journal and the Goblet of Fire, these are all singular items that you don't actually see in those covers how they relate to the story, but you know that this is an important item in the story. Ergo, which Harry Potter volume this cover revolves around. K: Do you get scenarios where somebody says ‘I want you to draw exactly this and I want it to look like this,' or do you generally give them a few different ideas or rough sketches and then go from there? G: Generally the things that I like to have control over are color palette, camera angle, the stuff that would be considered very technical for an illustration. Perspective. Whether things are shot from above, shot from below, because these are all illustrator tools that help dictate the mood of a painting. And the mood is actually the thing that I usually ask my clientele for. Mood translates to ‘how are we supposed to feel when looking at this?' Because feeling is very closely tied to genre. G: So, what kind of book am I trying to sell? Is it a horror book? That dictates what kind of colors, what kind of camera angles that I'm going to use. But if somebody tells me ‘I want a top-down shot of something-something,' then that feels a bit invasive to me because I feel like if I am an artist then I can select the camera angle to best convey the drama that you're asking for. But the things that are really good for me are the object or character or focus, and if there is a character the kind of action that is being performed. A lot of times we get character description but no action, and the action is actually what tells us what the character is like, and separates it from the design. K: Yeah so you don't just have two characters just standing there looking straight forward at the camera - G [overlapping]: Yeah. K: - dressed the way they told you to dress them. G: Yes. [laughing] Because basically that would be really difficult to create an interesting illustration for. K: Absolutely yeah. [laughing] G: It's kind of like going to the mall and you see the clothes being sold on mannequins. Like it helps sell you the clothes but it doesn't tell you what the story is behind the people wearing the clothes. It helps to have stuff like props, backgrounds, and actions to help convey like, ‘oh yeah if this character is wearing a t-shirt and jeans, is this t-shirt and jeans part of an urban fantasy? Or is it a part of a YA contemporary romance?' K: How much back-and-forth do you generally have with the editors you're working with? Like what is the first thing you give back to them? G: This generally varies per artist, including the artists I work with. So usually what I do is between one to three thumbnails or sketches that I hand in to the editor and ask them ‘what do you think of these directions,' ‘which one of these thumbnails' - which I then proceed to refine - ‘do you think hits the target best?' Then if it's a very large piece of work I might work on a more refined sketch and pass it in, or like base colors and pass it in, and minimally it's usually the thumbnails plus the finished drawing. So that's two to five back-and-forths, depending on the size of the piece. R: How much do you let the art director or editor you're working with go back to the start? I know you probably don't let them past a certain point, like ok you approved the thumbnail so we're moving forward, we're not going back to thumbnails after that, but what if they don't like any of the initial thumbnails? G: Yeah so basically most artists I know have what are called revision fees, and these are generally written into the contracts that you sign upon working with them. Basically saying ‘you get this many thumbnails, you get to give comments this many times, and if you go over those times there'll be an additional fee.' Because artists are basically charging - it's a service-based industry, and your haircutter charges you per hour, and so does your artist. And generally if they aren't happy with the thumbnails, then I would then incur the revision fee, but also I ask for further information. G: So, if you as a writer or editor aren't happy with what your artist is turning back, you need to be able to explain what you're not happy with. So you can explain like ‘oh I don't think this color palette is appropriate for this target market. Here are some images of other books that have come out in the same area that we think would be good inspiration for you.' The only time that revision becomes really frustrating, outside of a timing frame, is when your client says ‘I don't know what I want but I'll know it when I see it.' R: I knew you were gonna say that. [giggling] As a graphic designer I also hate those words. G [laughing]: Yeah. K: It's like okay I guess I'll just keep throwing paint at the wall and see what happens. G: Like revisions aren't bad as long as the client is able to convey what needs to actually be changed. R: Not a series of no-thank-yous. K: Have you ever come across a scenario where you've kind of had to take a step back from the project and say ‘listen, I think maybe I'm not the right person to do this.' G: Usually I'm good enough at heading that off before a project even begins. K [laughing]: Okay! G: That is something you come to with experience, you understand your style, your way of working as an illustrator, and knowing like ‘hey this type of thing is going to be too out of my ballpark,' ‘this type of thing is not gonna pay enough,' ‘this type of thing is just too much work for what I'm capable of doing right now.' That is kind of like you're responsible, as most freelance artists are independent business owners essentially. They'll usually say so up front minus extenuating circumstances. Like at work we've had people drop out because they acquired COVID in the middle of an assignment, so - K [overlapping]: Oh god. G: - there's really nothing you can do about that. [laughing] K [laughing]: Yeah. Have you ever been presented with a commission, talked to the person, and thought to yourself ‘I don't think they have a good enough handle on what it is they're looking for here, and this may just end up being a headache'? G: Yes. That has definitely happened before, ‘cause I don't have much time. So if I feel like the client either lacks the direction and communication to give me what I need, or if they're simply asking for too much, then I will usually politely decline them, within the first couple of emails. K: Obviously you're not reading all of these books and you're working off the creative brief. Is there anything in particular that you get these, you're trying to make sure you're communicating in the feel of the book rather than an exact representation of what's going on there? G: Yeah. So I'm not trying to recreate a 1-to-1 specific moment from the book. I'm trying to generate a piece that, as you said, evokes a major theme. A lot of times I'm asked to do character work, mostly because that is something that I enjoy doing and specialize in; I love character and costume design. Like you've never seen a spaceship in my portfolio because I'm really bad at it. K: I looked through it, I didn't see one. [laughing] G: Yeah, don't put stuff in your portfolio that you are not good at painting and don't wanna paint. Like people come to me because they're like ‘oh this person does kind of anime-inspired fantasy characters,' and so that's kind of like a niche that you can reach other people who like anime-inspired fantasy characters. So things for me that I consider important is, I like to know a character's build and ethnicity. G: Stuff like ‘oh the character's mouth is a Cupid's bow' or like ‘they have eyebrows that are waxed to a certain angle,' that's a bit too specific. Or like ‘they wear ten rings.' Because if you mentioned that the character wears ten rings, it automatically makes those ten rings really important. And you have to wonder, are those ten rings really important to actually selling who this character is? Do those ten rings have a narrative function in the story? If so, do you wanna include the rest of the character, or do you wanna focus on that character's hands and the rings, as a way to say ‘hey this is what this story is about'? Because it's very hard to include such a small item and such a big item together on the same image. There's a lot of physical limitations to representational art; similar as it is, it's really challenging to get a photo with both your shortest friend and your tallest friend at the same time and not have a giant gap between them. [laughing] K [laughing]: Lot of negative space and awkward positions. G: Yeah. R: Well this is where your control over the perspective comes in, right? So that would be a shot from below. K: Or above! Really above. [laughing] G: Yeah. So one of the things that I like to ask for is no more than two or three key items, I would call them, that differentiate who this character is from all the other characters. Like you can say ‘yes, she is a Black woman' or ‘yes, he is a muscular man of European descent.' But Aragorn is defined by Andúril, his sword. Once you stick that sword on Aragorn, you know ‘hey this is a high-fantasy Tolkienesque property.' So I'm looking for a handful of items like that, to help show who this character is and how they differentiate and help sell the genre, setting, and time period. K: Covers are telling people things without explicitly telling them that. Like you mentioned you give Aragorn his sword or a similar character, you're stating ‘hey this is a high-fantasy book.' If there's a background in it and it's castles built into rolling mountains, that's also indicating things to somebody who might be potentially interested in reading it. Do you spend a lot of time or give a lot of attention to trying to signal to potential readers that this might be something they're interested in, or do you kind of let the cover do what it's gonna do? Like how much do you try to work elements into it that are telling you things about the book without telling you things about the book? G: I usually try to focus on having as I said up to three of those key items - K [overlapping] Okay. [laughing] G: - because, as you said, castles are really common in a lot of European-based high fantasy. So you can leverage that castle, change it up, be like oh is it a floating castle that implies that there's a certain kind of magic? Is it a castle that's built into a hillside that implies another sort of magic? And so when I'm doing that I'm not necessarily looking at other pieces that are within the same genre, because the same genre-ness comes from the castle itself. I'm trying not to make a cover that looks exactly like every other cover out there, because this writing is probably not like every other fantasy story out there. K: Mhm. G: I'm actually specifically looking for those key items that differentiate it within its own genre. K: Any good stories, or interesting things that've happened here, your favorite piece that you've worked on or something that was particularly challenging? Maybe not just cover art but any commissions in general? G: All of my really funny stories are actually just from when I was doing random stuff for anime cons. I've had to draw a woman making out with Loki, but the woman is not herself, the woman is Kate Beckinsale. Fandom's strange. R: So you drew Kate Beckinsale making out - K [overlapping]: Making out with Loki - [laughing] G: Yes. R: And let the woman believe it was her? G: There are certain things you simply cannot draw. You cannot draw the flow of time. If you have a single image, it is very difficult to have anything that goes from step one and step two. [chuckling] And convey two images in a single image. K: Those Animorphs covers used to do that. G: That's true. And they had the little flipbooks in the back. K [laughing]: Remember that? G: Yeah. K: What advice would you have for somebody who, like let's say they're going to self-publish, or maybe somebody who hasn't really done this before but is looking to commission a piece of art - what advice would you have for them? G: For prospective clients, I generally ask that they do their research beforehand, essentially. Like working with artists, we have our own system, our own language, essentially, for technical stuff, for our materials, our use of camera angles, our use of colors. And to kind of understand what is within and without our control. So don't expect an art piece to be able to capture your entire story, because your story has some form of linear time in it, which art inherently will not if it's a single image. And that usually requires a lot of trust on the part of new authors, because this is their baby, right, they spent a lot of time on it and they wanna give it nice clothes. K: I love that by the way - G [overlapping]: [laughing] K: - they wanna give it nice clothes, that's perfect. [laughing] G: And like, a lot of us really understand this, but it's really helpful for us if you are to distinguish things that are and are not concrete. If you have a story that's based on music and you want your cover to celebrate the fact that it revolves around song, artists cannot draw a song. Unless you have synesthesia, you're probably not gonna look at a piece of artwork and hear music. So you're gonna have to come up with concrete visuals to convey this. G: So that main character, how do they produce this music? Are they a violinist? In which case yes, a violin can be drawn, that's very clear, very easy. And so just coming up with those small as I say key items, that would probably be one of them. Coming prepared with those and trusting the artist to interpret that - you can always say ‘hey, my book is about song, that is why I'd like to include these items,' but don't throw them into the wind with ‘my book is about songs' and - K: ‘Draw me a song.' G: Yes. K: You had mentioned revision fees, now again a constant theme in this podcast is contracts and read your contract and check your contract. Typically if you're going to engage an artist they're going to sign a contract with you. By the way, if the artist is not interested in signing a contract with you, and this is a custom piece, maybe that's not the artist to work with. But you're going to have a fee schedule, you're going to say ‘okay up front this is how much I'm estimating this to be but there are additional fees and costs for revisions, for changes, for going back.' K: We've definitely had to, with artists we commissioned for covers, go back and say ‘hey listen, something came up and we need another version of this, can you tweak these things?' And that's fine, it's just an additional charge. Is there anything in particular you would say to the people who are looking to commission an artist to just be aware of and expect, so they're not 1) shocked or 2) completely overlook something, in terms of costs associated with this kind of thing. G: Art is skilled labor. K: Absolutely. G: It's gonna vary per artist. Some people work faster, some people work slower. The type of publication is also going to affect the cost. But do not be surprised if an artist asks for a living wage, in terms of hourly money, because this is what they do; it's generally not a side job. K: Art is a skilled work that needs to be paid accordingly. There's a reason you're having to go out and find somebody you need to do this, because it's not an easy thing to do. G: Yeah, you're gonna be looking at prices significantly over part-time retail, because this is full-time work. Artists pay taxes on top of their stuff, and they are in charge of maintaining their own tax books. The high prices also cover their cost of living, the materials, 30% of it automatically goes to taxes, so those rates are going to be relatively high. A lot higher than I think what people expect. I feel like sometimes when people are new to commissioning, they'll expect it to be something in the price range of like ‘hey, I'm asking someone to in their off-time help me out at home with this, etcetera, or babysit my cat.' R: They wanna pay you 20 bucks and an extra pizza. G: Yeah. K: Well they're looking at it in like hourly rates, not realizing that it's not just hourly. Like you said there's taxes, there's material, there's - you don't get something then immediately sit down and start drawing it, you have to read some things, you have to think about it, you have to process, there's a lot of invisible hours that go into this as well. G: Yeah. R: You might spend - random number - 12 hours working on a cover, but that skill that you developed to create that cover is not 12 hours worth of skill-development, that is the lifetime that you have put into being an artist. So if anybody is thinking that ‘well the cover for my book is just a box I need to check off on my way to publication' - G: Yeah and that high hourly rate encompasses the work of emailing back and forth and sending the revisions and all the administrative stuff that the artist has to do. Artists generally do not have assistant teams, and they are not big publishing houses. K: The phone call was two minutes, it took me five minutes to read this thing, and ten minutes to write a response, but all of the stuff in between is additional time. All of your back-and-forth with your artist, all of the discussion that you're gonna have, all of the time that you the artist have to sit and think about this and do some sketches and stop and walk away and collect your thoughts, all of that is your valuable time. R: We've been talking about hourly rates. But every time, in my personal experience, that I've commissioned a cover, I have been given a flat number and then the contract as we've discussed talks about how many revisions or whatever are included in that number. I assume this is the practice of this person doing covers so frequently that they have a general ballpark of what they need to earn to justify what a cover is. But that's still based on a living wage that they're creating for themselves. G: Correct. That's usually it. R: When somebody gives you a flat rate it's not that this is a flat rate and someone else is going to just give you like ‘$85 an hour please.' G: Yeah. K: Well are you calculating your flat rate based on how many hours you, in your experience, know this takes? G: Yes, that's exactly what most artists do. Because clients tend to not want to bill per hour, because it's a single gig, most artists will give a flat rate based off their previous experience of how long something is going to take, which is why when back-and-forth gets too much, we incur revision fees. Because usually the flat rate is based off of our average experience of a client who spends this much time talking with us, and this much is gonna have to go to taxes, etc. And because flat rate is generally easier for clients and billing as well. R: Yeah rather than an open-ended number where they have no idea, and there's probably some paranoia that if you don't know the person well you might just keep billing them for stuff. G: You're gonna find contracts that specify hourly rates for longer term stuff, like visual developments or several character designs, or if you have a world that you're trying to build out for a TTRPG or concept art for a new video game or something like that. But for single one-off jobs, it's usually the artist will give you a flat rate number based off of their estimation on how long the gig will take, which is why sometimes these flat rate numbers look gigantic. But remember, again, that's based off of an hourly rate. R: Now do you ever get an email from a potential client and you go ‘oh yeah I better double the number, based on the way this email is written'? G: Yes that has happened before; the asshole tax is a pretty common practice - K [overlapping]: [laughing] G: - among artists. We are factoring in how long something is going to take as well. K: And by the way along the flat rates and the contracts and Grace I don't know if this is how you typically handle this, but when we would do book covers it was usually half up front, of the flat rate, and half when the work is finished plus any additional revision fees, which for us was always just a like ‘hey here's the down payment if you will to show we're serious and to get started.' Artists put a lot of time into this, and if you say ‘well I'm gonna pay you when this is done' and then they go ‘I don't like it. Forget it. I don't want it anymore,' that's a lot of time and energy that the artist has now wasted for no return. G: Yup. Most artists will not start without half to full payment upfront. I'd say like 95% of them won't. ‘Cause everybody has been burned very early on in their career by somebody who asked for work and never paid for it. So you only let that happen once. [laughing] Yeah. Always be prepared to have the money ready, like half the money ready, before the artist will start working. If you have a relaxed deadline, a lot of artists are really chill about just letting things kind of be like ‘oh I have this email of somebody who's interested' but it doesn't become real and doesn't actually get scheduled until there's money down. K: Artists have schedules. And they have open time slots and things that they might not be able to fit you into. How much of a lead time would you say they need to leave, in order to have a fully completed piece of art ready to go? G: I'd say at the minimum one to two months. I know people that can turn stuff around in two weeks, but if you're looking to get something done in the one month range, you're probably looking at a rush fee. Artists usually keep one to two jobs forward, like they have something but they're working on something lined up, and they usually have maybe another one lined up. And so if you demand something immediately, then that means they have to rush the next two. K: Mhm. G: So usually they will include a rush fee for that. K: I mean essentially it's overtime - G: Yes. K: - at that point, like I'm having to work extra hours outside of my regular schedule so that I can get to your thing faster. G: Yeah. And the lead time will very specifically vary per artist, because if you're trying to get someone who's like super super popular, who has a large number of clients already, you may be waiting like a year or two. Like. [laughing] K: There're science fiction cover artists out there that, like two years, if you want anything from them. Some of those people have incredibly long lead times on these, and their schedules are just full like over a year. G: Yeah. Like for me, I tend to be booked out about four to five months in advance, personally. But I generally, I will do rush fees and I'll also do smaller client pieces here and there that I know I can fit into a weekend. But again it really is up to that individual artist. I know how fast it takes me to complete a piece, but when I have 50 things going on, yeah it might take 20 hours to do, but if I have ten things that all take 20 hours, then I have a lot of time management that I need to figure out. K [laughing]: Yeah absolutely. When you finish a commission, when you finish a piece, how are you getting it to the person who is actually going to use it then and turn it in for the publication? Because a lot of these pieces are, they're very high resolution, they're very large files, and what does this look like - First of all what kind of a file is it, what does it look like? And then 2) how are you getting it, and how do you set it up so that they can manipulate it the way they need? G: So usually for clients I send a flat image, unless a layered image is requested - R: And let the artist know that at the beginning. G: Yes. K: Yes. G: Yes, layered images will usually incur a higher charge, because it implies that you will be editing the image afterwards. And so basically you need to buy some rights, the editing rights, from your artist. So that'll be a higher charge up front, when you write your original contract. Usually because I do a lot of web work, I just deliver a high resolution JPEG, high resolution PNG, and that's fine for my clients. For other major work especially if you need a layered file, PSDs, Photoshop files, are generally the common way to do it. In which case you upload a massive, massive file to a file transfer service such as Dropbox, or a lot of companies often have an internal file transfer upload - you log onto their system and upload directly to their system. K: If you're getting, especially one of those huge high-res layered images, you need to have a program that can manipulate it. You might need something additional on your end to even work with the image then. But also like, these files are huge. Typically they can't just email it to you. There's actually file transfer services as Grace mentioned, where you drop these and it's just in there for like two days. And you've gotta go get the file within that two-day period. G: Yeah. I think for major transfers I generally lean on Dropbox and actually just sometimes Google Drive. They're not exactly super secure, but like - K: [laughing] G: - few very people are going around sneaking your self-pub cover, like. [laughing] They'll just delete it after you've got it. K [laughing]: Well, you never know, Grace. Maybe someday somebody will steal something that you've done and leak it to the public, and - G: That actually would be really bad. [laughing] I work for Wiz of the Coast, if it happens then it's bad. R: Secure FTPs from here on out. [laughing] K: Multi-factor authentication in order to get these files. G: Yeah. R: So Grace, I happen to know, because I am on the inside, that you are - at the time of this episode coming out - you are the guest art director on the next issue of The Deadlands. G: Yes! Yes I am. [laughing] R: So from the other side of the table, how do you go about picking artwork on behalf of who are essentially clients here for their magazine issue? G: Cool. So, for The Deadlands I worked with Cory, who is the main art director, and I looked through the existing repertoire of work that had already been selected for Deadlands publications. Cory was very helpful too in kind of summarizing up the visual style of the magazine, as stuff that's more dark, more photo-real, lots of use of textured work, and I could see it in all the previous selections that'd already gone through. So based off of that, I was using my knowledge of my time in the art community to find pieces that I thought would resonate with that style. G: I was also provided a showcase short story essentially, for that issue, that they thought like ‘hey it would be good if the cover resonated emotionally with this written piece.' So I was looking for stuff that leveraged the visuals within that story, visuals of growth and forestry in particular, goes with a nice visceral story. They gave me the rest of the stories to read too, but as just more background information. And so I went to the portfolios of some of the artists that I knew worked in that kind of emotional field, like artists that did a lot of dark work, artists that do a lot of work in monochrome spaces, and so I looked in their portfolios for work to license that fit the forest-y theme of the showcase story. G: And so I took a couple of pieces that I thought were good, showed them to Cory, Cory showed them to the editor, and we moved forward with one of them. I contacted that artist; they spoke English as a second language so that's another thing you have to watch out with artists, so you have to be very clear and direct in your emails to make sure that you can be understood when your email gets thrown into Google Translate. And then I put Cory in touch with the artist for final contracts and payment. R: This is coming out on September 14th; the new issue of The Deadlands should be out on the 19th, so make sure you check that out, because you will see the cover that Grace picked, and the art that fit into the style, and I happen to know from behind the scenes that everyone was really enthusiastic about your choices. So you made a small mention, but we should probably highlight just a little bit - this is licensed artwork, the artwork already exists, you didn't commission something new, this is a piece that the artist already created either on commission or just as part of their creative process on their own. And so the artwork is available for license, which means that in a limited capacity it can be used again. Can you explain a little bit more about licensing? G: Yeah. So licensing is essentially buying rights to print an image, whether it be like a t-shirt or whether it be like your book cover, and it kinda goes through a separate route than commissioning. So commissioning essentially you are paying for a service, you're paying for an artist's time to make custom work for you. For licensing, it's closer to buying rights, and you're saying ‘I want to pay you x amount for the right to use this image in my piece. And generally artists are pretty lenient about licensing, especially if you are doing a non-exclusive license. It's basically free money for us, like you're paying us for something that we've already created, there's no additional hourly time that we're gonna have to handle other than administrative fees, which are usually more than covered in the licensing. For that you just generally email them and ask them if they have a licensing fee already, or you can generally look for standard licensing fees for products of the same type as yours. G: Most magazines and such will print how much they pay for licensed covers, in part of their artistic submissions and generally you can offer this rate for similar products within the field. When you are commissioning, though, these rights and usages will actually be factored into the contract. For example, if you want to be the only person who can use this work, you want the artist never to sell this work to another licensee, then this will factor into the cost of your original contract. The flat rate that the artist gives you might be higher, because basically you're saying they can't make future money off of it by licensing it to somebody else. ‘Cause copyright-wise, the image I believe is retained with the artist, unless the rights are completely bought out in the contract. Like I believe most contracts are they pay for the work and they pay to license the work, so an exclusive license would be the license fee but higher. R: Kind of like the layered file, like you know that this person wants to own this image and do whatever they want with it, so you kind of charge extra. G: Yeah. I'll charge even higher if somebody is like ‘you can never show this in your portfolio,' like you can't even use this to get more work later. K: I don't understand why anyone would want that. R: Yeah. K: Ok. G: It really has to do with intellectual property NDA-type stuff, so if they're like ‘this is a super-secret project, this is too early on,' ‘cause usually it's like artists get to post in a portfolio once the thing has been released, but if they're worried a project is gonna be canceled and they wanna hold onto the image in case they wanna use it for another project, then that would bar them from putting it in a portfolio. This is more common practice among artists who work in video games and animation, where their projects are constantly like revolving, canceled, there's a lot more asset reuse, yeah. R: Alright so. There [laughing] is a lot of information on licensing, on contracts, on payment structures. Be nice to the artist, ‘cause look at everything they're already balancing. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: So any final thoughts, Grace? Anything we haven't touched on that is a bugaboo for you, that you wanna make sure we warn people or - G: I feel like we've covered a lot. R: - invite people, it can be inviting too. G: I dunno, come to my class November 13th. It's a free business class on how to write effective art briefs. [laughs] R: Yes, that's through Clarion West. G: It'll be through the Clarion West, yes. R: Yeah, so we will put the link to that in the show notes. Hopefully the - is it unlimited spaces, or is it limited? G: There are one hundred spaces, I think like 40 of them are already taken. R: Okay! So by the time this comes out there'll be less than 60 available, so make sure that you go find that link in the show notes for that free workshop, because I think a brief is going to make you as compatible as possible with the person that you commission. Because you wanna make their job easy, so that they don't wanna charge you extra. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: And also so that they still love your project by the time they get to the final artwork. K: Yeah, so they don't have some sort of visceral shudder reaction every time the name of that book or project comes up. [laughing] G: Things also go around. Artists talk to each other, so if you give one a terrible time, then a lot of them will not wanna work with you anymore. K: Yeah this is something not just in art and publishing, but I think most industries - people who work in the same field talk to each other. Artists do not exist in a bubble, they are not all hiding in some dark studio bent over an oil painting that they've been devoting their life to - G: I mean we are. K: Okay. G: But we all just have Discord open on the side. K [laughing]: The room has internet access, yes. Grace thanks so much, this was great. I think this was a lot of really good information that people kinda dipping their toe in the water here may not be aware of, or know how to find easily. But speaking of finding, where can people find you? G: Ah, you can find me on ArtStation, at artstation.com/fictograph. It's like pictograph but with an f instead of a p. That is the same on Twitter, where it's mostly cat photos. K: [laughing] R: Alright we will put those links in the show notes too, so you won't even have to spell anything. Just go find a link, and go find Grace because Grace has a lot of amazing artwork to look at, and also might be the perfect artist for a future project of yours!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: The Dancing Plague of 1518 MICE quotient The House of Untold Stories  storyenginedeck.com/demo deckofworlds.com Peter on Twitter and everywhere   Transcript (by TK) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Episode 66 Transcription Kaelyn: We're talking about tropes today, which is something that I think a lot of people hear spoken about in a negative context: falling back on using too many tropes, or stories following really common tropes. Rekka: And we don't appreciate that kind of shaming. K [laughs]: No, we certainly do not trope sh--see this is gonna be a problem because I was doing research for this and the word ‘trope' is difficult to say over and over again. R: Trope, trope, trope, trope, trope. K: It's, what do they call that, when a word becomes a sound? Semantic satiation. R: Yes. K: Yes. The word ‘trope' has become more of a sound to me and it's sort of lost meaning [laughing] at times but--So quick definitions, there's the actual word ‘trope' comes from Greek, because of course it does, it all does-- R: You mean it isn't a contraction of tightrope? K: It should be, that would be so much better. R: [laughs] K: A literary trope is using figurative language, like words, phrases, images, for artistic effect. So there's a bunch of different kinds of tropes that fall under literary tropes. Things like metaphors, irony, allegory, oxymorons; those are all considered tropes. Hyperbole is another good example of that, really over-exaggerating. The way this came about was, apparently, because it is Greek and it's from Greek theatre, of course, ‘to alter, to direct, to change, to turn'--all of these translations kinda line up with that, but they're considered an important element of classical rhetoric. Especially in Greek theatre where it was very dialogue-heavy, and so you had to sort of use all of these words and everything to paint a picture to explain to the audience what was going on. All of that said, we're not really here to talk about literary tropes today. They're an important story-telling device, though, and they're something that is considered, I would say, necessary to higher literature and writing and if you're panicking going ‘oh my God, I don't know all of this stuff'--well the thing is you're probably doing this anyway and not realizing. R: A lot of writers don't come from writing backgrounds and don't know the terms for the thing, don't stress too much about it. K: We're talking today primarily about story tropes. I think a lot of times you're gonna encounter this in a negative light. It's a frequent criticism I feel like that's leveraged especially against fiction, especially against fantasy and science fiction books and writing; in some areas of fiction it's actually celebrated. R: Right. K: You pick which trope you're gonna write. R: You cannot proceed without mentioning the other half of that, which is that some people are like ‘Okay, I pick my books based on the tropes I wanna read about.' K: Yes. R: Like, ‘Where's my time travel?' K [laughs]: Yeah. We wanted to talk about why that is. We wanted to talk about what story tropes are, and why they're not necessarily as bad and, in our humble opinions-- R: Not so humble. K: --not so humble opinions, as everyone thinks they are. So, definition: what is a story trope? It's a commonly used plot or character device, essentially. A story trope is something that shows up in literature and stories over and over again, to the point that it may actually be a subgenre within a broader genre. R: That's not to say it is an entire plot of a book that shows up over and over again, like the Hero's Journey is not necessarily a trope. K: No. R: The smaller pieces of plot or character might be the trope. Like the farmboy would be a trope. K: Yeah, the farmboy is a trope. The surprise hero is a trope. R: Prophesied one. K: Yeah, the prophesied one; time-travel to go back and reset the future, that could be a trope. The noble outlaw-- R [overlapping]: Right. K: --is a good trope, the secret relative, the-- All of these elements and story parts that are things you just see all the time in books. So if you're going ‘well, I like those'-- R: Right. K: Like yeah, of course you do! R [overlapping]: Yeah. K [laughing]: That's why they're popular! That's why these keep coming up. Anything from like, a secret legacy or an unknown lost child, unfound powers that suddenly appear at just the right time, or anyone being secretly special for some reason. R [overlapping]: [giggles] K: But these are part of what make stories fun. They're not the larger plot, they're the elements that make up the characters and the plot. R: And you can use them like spice in a recipe-- K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: --to come up with something that is entirely your own but tastes familiar and pleasing. K: Yeah. Now obviously, different genres are going to have different tropes that you see recurring in there. So before we get into why tropes are good, let's talk a little bit about why they're frequently seen as a negative. R: I have feelings about this. K: Okay. R: I think they're frequently seen as a negative because if you come to lean too heavily on tropes, they can make your story feel either derivative or predictable. K: I was gonna say contrived, yeah, but same. R: Don't you ever say that about one of my stories, Kaelyn. K: I would never say that about one of your stories. If you're leaning too heavily on tropes, if you're just pulling things that you know are popular or cool things you read in other books that you went like ‘oh wow that's awesome, I wanna write something like that,' you're almost not writing a story. You're putting together a sequence of events and characters that you liked from other things. R: Is that fanfiction, is that what you're implying? K: Ohhh, oh, there's a--God, I'm not ready to wade into that question! [laughs] R: But we should touch on the fact that tropes are major fanfiction fuel. Sometimes that's the entire point of the piece, is that ‘take this trope and apply it to this IP that I love.' K: Yeah. R: In that case, that can be the goal. To be, not that contrived but obviously, specifically derivative--not in the negative sense of the term, but like you're writing fanfiction, it is derivative of this IP, and you're applying this trope to it because you just think that would be fun. So people can have fun with it. K: Absolutely. R: And not for the right reasons, but it might feed into this impression that tropes are derivative or contrived. K: I think also it goes to storytelling abilities. If your entire book is just laden with secret Targaryens and lost bloodlines and magic powers nobody knew about, chosen ones and prophecies and it's just the entire story is that, it's probably not a great story, because it doesn't sound like there's a lot of room in there for character development and arcs and intricate and original plots. R: Having said that… K: Or, wait, other direction: it may be way too complicated. Because that's a lot of stuff to juggle. R: Well there's that, yeah. Having said that, I don't think you could say that there is a restrained amount of troping in something like Gideon the Ninth. K: No. No, absolutely not. R: So it can be done. K: Here's the thing. That story is set in such an original setting with such original characters, in original worldbuilding and magic system if you will, that I think it more than makes up for all of that. That's just my opinion, ‘cause you know Rekka and I can't get through an episode without referencing Gideon the Ninth and using that as an example of-- R [overlapping]: I think there's one or two. K: [laughing] R: But specifically when you talk about things that are trope-based, or fandom-based, I think you have to acknowledge that there is always an exception to this ‘be careful around fanfic,' or ‘be careful around tropes.' Like ‘don't put too many in'--or! Put them all in! K [laughs]: It's I think a matter of knowing how to use them. I don't think a lot of writers set out with the intention of ‘I am going to write to this trope,' it's just something that happens. R: Although I think a lot of tropes have inspired anthologies. ‘I want this kind of book, I want an anthology full of that kind of story.' K: Yeah. R: And it's one or two tropes smashed together, or it's a trope applied to a certain genre or character type. I think it's happening a lot, where people are looking for a way to find joy. And tropes really are like candy. K: So let's talk about that. Let's talk about why tropes are good, why these things that show up in every story show up in every story--it's because they're fun! R: It's also really good marketing. K: Yes. R: It's a lot easier to come up with comp titles when you're pitching a book if everybody's drawing from a fairly reasonably sized pool of tropes. K: Let's be clear here. These things can go in cycles. I remember a few years ago everyone was retelling or reinterpreting old fairy tales. I felt like that was just something I saw all the time. I will call that a trope, more or less, that is something that speaks to a specific reader and something that somebody's gonna wanna pick up, like ‘oh well I really liked when this person did it, I'm gonna try this book now as well.' R: So that speaks to what you said earlier about them becoming like a niche genre. K: Yeah, absolutely. Young adult fiction, especially within science fiction and fantasy, I think is constantly at the mercy of whatever trope is popular at the time. YA definitely fell to the fairy tale retelling trend at some point; YA books with a central character, usually a young woman or older teenage girl, who was not necessarily a prophesied champion but has to save everyone on her own even though she doesn't want to; science fiction, there's everything from time travel to artificial intelligence to very specific kinds of space battles and things, but! It speaks to a certain reader. K: There are these things that create these subgenres, and that's really helpful for readers, because I think what we're skirting around that nobody wants to say is, you don't want to put readers in a position where they're just reading the same story over and over, but I know a lot of people who just like to read the same story over and over. People who are very into romance novels. R: There're definitely a set of tropes that romance novels have to pick from, just like there are tropes that other genres have to pick from, and when you read a book that you really love, and romance often tickles a specific audience, they want more like that. Think of the first Thor movie where he tries coffee and he says “I like this beverage. Another!” and smashes it down on the floor-- K [overlapping]: Yes! [laughs] R: People will smash their books down on the floor and demand another because they read through it so quickly and it was exactly what they wanted, and they want to feel that feeling again. Just with new characters. K: I'm gonna qualify all this by saying none of this is a criticism of the romance genre. Romance writers a lot of times write to specific tropes: the marriage of convenience, or the marriage of ‘we didn't know each other beforehand but someone found this legal document that our families betrothed us'-- R: Or a fake marriage-- K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: --that turns into a real marriage. K: Co-workers to friends to lovers type thing. R: Only one bed. K: Yes, exactly, exactly. R: These are by the way coming into genre fiction, science fiction and fantasy-- K [overlapping]: Yup. R: Where romance is becoming more welcome in the books. K: Yes. R: Actual romance, as opposed to ‘you are a buxom babe who stowed away on my spaceship therefore we are a couple.' The depth of character is now allowing for these tropes to trickle in as characters get to know each other in a more interesting way, and less classic pairing-off. K: I'm sure most people listening to this know or probably even a family member that just obsessively consumes romance novels. I think back to my grandmother and my aunt having stacks of those mass market paperback ones that all have like, essentially the same cover just different backgrounds and clothes. R: Hey look, when we talk about your cover art, you need to look at what your industry in your genre is-- K [overlapping]: Yes, absolutely! R: --putting on the shelf and you want to communicate that you are making the same promise to the reader. So you have very similar covers in romance, ‘cause there's only so many ways to be austere while still posing two characters together. K [laughing]: I would say that the two genre groups of readers that will most vivaciously consume media are hard military SF and romance, who will just tear through these books and stories, which is fantastic. I have friends that will read at least one, possibly two, romance novels a week. A lot of them do the Kindle Unlimited. R: Yup. K: Because there's a lot of romance novels on Kindle unlimited. R: Well the two systems kinda fed each other. K: Exactly. But, they have their tropes that they like. Forced into a marriage of convenience, or stranded on an island somewhere. R: Those are the good ones. K: Yeah. [laughs] And Kindle will very helpfully keep recommending more and more of those to you, and I don't want anyone to leave thinking I'm putting down those readers for just wanting the same thing over and over again. Books are there to give you comfort and to spark joy and interest, and if that's what you wanna read, if that's what's making you happy, then that's what you should be reading. R: Right. And in that case, tropes are very very good. K: Tropes are incredibly helpful. R: And they're a marketing tool; the people producing the work, they know that their readers like this trope, so an entire world where that trope is kind of central to what's going on is going to delight people. K: Something that I see a lot now, and especially with submissions I was seeing this, was a really hard and concerted effort to avoid tropes. And it's hard to write like that sometimes. Don't get me wrong; there are books out there that are successfully doing it, that are coming up with really original stories. That said, I don't think it's possible to write a full-length novel without having at least a handful of tropes in there. R: Plus, if it's successful and it's original, then someone's going to mimic that. K: It will become a trope on its own, eventually. R [overlapping]: And it becomes a trope. I mean this is where tropes come from, they are not fully forged in the heart of a star. K: [laughs] R: Y'know, they're a process of people recognizing a thing they like in a book and making sure it's repeated. That's exactly what's going on, so you come up with a story that's completely original and you're so proud of it, well, maybe you get to claim being the first, but you're not going to get to claim being the only for very long. K: Tropes go back to basically the genesis of human writing. R: Mhm. K: I mean, we consider the Epic of Gilgamesh to be the oldest more or less complete epic story written down, at this point. It's very clear, if you've ever read it, that even though we don't have anything that came before that, there's elements of the story that were just commonplace storytelling devices of that time. There's other parts of it that then pop up in later epic tales that it's impossible to tell well, was this influenced by the Epic of Gilgamesh, or was this influenced by common storytelling tropes of the time and the Epic of Gilgamesh just happens to be the one that lasted the longest that we still have? R: Right. K: If you ever look into the literary history of Robin Hood, Robin Hood as we know him today did not start off like that. R [overlapping]: Right. K: He was just like a straight up highwayman. R: Bandit, at some point yeah. K: Bandit, there we go. He regularly kinda killed people to get their money. But, the character evolved as storytelling tropes evolved. We went from Robin Hood being just a lawless bandit who's funny and laughing while he's doing all of this to, no no he's actually the son of an earl who went off on the Crusades and came back and he's stealing from the rich and giving to the needy. Yeah Robin Hood was just straight up stealing originally-- R [overlapping]: Wow. K: --in all of these. [laughs] R: Until suddenly he wasn't. K: Until suddenly he wasn't! R: And someday in the future, those tropes might change, and the story of Robin Hood would be told differently, and everyone would think that was the best version. K: There's actually a lot of what we would probably think of as ‘modern' tropes that show up in medieval European literature. The special chosen one is very tied to Arthurian legend, which again, if you ever wanna try to put that together, go and--good luck. R [laughing]: You figure that out, we're not doing it for you. K: No [laughs], no. That's another good example of the evolution of these tropes. And then there's actually like conflict and everyone was writing different versions of Arthur but because there was no printing press at the time, and there certainly wasn't any form of mass communication, there's all of these different versions of what virtues and what values they wanted to highlight in Arthur, based on what was common storytelling at that time. I think that there is this push to write something no one's ever written, and the thing is you're never gonna do that. R: And maybe it's not even something you wanna aspire to do. K: No, and it's okay for authors to write a story based on the story they wanna tell, not based on like, ‘I need to be the most original writer in the history of writing.' That said, there are definitely readers out there who are always looking for something they've never seen before. Maybe you can write one of those! But, it's still going to have tropes in it. R: Yeah. K: They are inescapable. They are inevitable. R: Yeah, the level of trope that you include might go up or down, depending on your story, but. Don't revise your draft and like strip out everything that was fun at the time, just because you've seen it before. K: Rekka and I are obviously coming from a place of primarily Western-fueled literature. R: Right. K: Y'know, if you get into different parts of the world, different storytelling traditions, they will also have their own tropes. [laughs] R: Yeah, they're not gonna be the same tropes, so if you wanna totally wow a Western audience just go borrow someone else's tropes. K: Prophecy and chosen one's just all over the historical literature, there's mythical places and people with secret lineages, I think that's something you're gonna come across no matter what, because uh. Almost like humanity just really enjoys those facets of storytelling. So. But yeah anyway, when I would get submissions sometimes that I could tell there was a writer that was just trying to be really really original, to just stay away from anything that may have been done before. One of the things I always thought was, “I don't know how I'm going to sell this to anyone.” R: Right, ‘cause what do you compare it to? K: Yeah, that's not necessarily a dealbreaker. But it does make things very difficult. Because if you're trying to describe something in the context of ‘well do you like this thing? You may also like this'-- R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: --and you're not able to do that, it's hard to sell a book. R: Right. Exactly. And that's how the conversations always start, you got the elevator pitches, you've got the comp books. And those are the quickest way to get people's attention, and now you've cut yourself off from that. K: Yeah exactly. That said, nothing wrong with trying to be original. Just be aware it could be, depending on how original you're going, it could be a little bit of an uphill battle. Again, I will use Gideon the Ninth as a weird pitch-- R [overlapping]: [laughs] K [laughing]: --for that book, ‘lesbian necromancers in a broken down palace in space,' and don't get me wrong, that definitely piqued my interest, but you can see how that might not be everyone's cup of tea. R: And if it's the first original book to present this-- K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: --to a major publisher, they're going to say, “Who do we put this on the shelf next to? Where do we market this? We don't use these tropes.” K: Yep. R: “How do we do?” Y'know? K: [laughs] R: It takes a brave publisher to try something new, even if that new thing is built out of all these amazing fantastic fun tropes. K: Yeah, exactly. R: So you can be original, and still combine all these tropes, and just do it in a way that makes people go, “Sorry, what? Say that again?!” K: That's kind of one more thing that I would like to talk about. We skirted around Gideon the Ninth-- R: I don't think we skirted around it. K: Well--is just trope after trope and I said yeah, but it's very original in everything else. So if you have sort of what you'd think of as like ‘ugh is this story too cookie-cutter, is it too predictable and too tropey?' the thing you need to then consider is, alright but everything else I have in here, the worldbuilding, the characters, the technology or the magic system, is that original? You can make up for a lot by having a really original, engaging world that this is set in, and writing really great characters that we're cheering for and boy do we really want them to be the long-lost secret half-sister of the wizard-- R: Right. K: We're just cheering so hard for her, I want for her to have magic powers. So-- [laughs] R: Especially if you start to lead toward a trope, and you don't deliver on it, your readers are going to be pretty upset with you. K: Or maybe they'll go, ‘wow that's awesome. I wanna write something like that.' R: And then it becomes a trope again. K: Exactly. R: Alright, is there anything else tropey to discuss? K: They're an endless cycle. R: Get your innertube and just jump into the lazy river of tropes, and-- K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: And enjoy, just come around again and it'll be good. Just write your story. K: Yeah. R: If it's got tropes in it, that's cool. If it doesn't, that's cool. It will soon. K [laughing]: And they're not lazy, let's be clear! R: They're not! K: No, yeah-- R: But that's what they call it at a theme park when they jump in with the innertube-- K: No no I'm just, yeah. R: Okay! So, tropes are good. If anyone tells you otherwise just take your book somewhere else. Someone wants them. They want them very very badly. K: Also, being constantly rejected and not seeing the brilliance of a character is a good trope too. R: Yes. And, going for the tropes of podcasting, you can find us online @wmbcast on Twitter and Instagram, and also at Patreon. And if you would be so kind to leave a rating and review, we would love to read it on the air. You could also ask us questions at any of those social media-- K [overlapping]: We love questions. R: --accounts. That can feed a future tropey episode. Or maybe not tropey, I don't know! We'll find out when you ask us questions. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk to you in two weeks!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett A Ship With No Parrot by R J Theodore (MetaStellar) Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: We're talking today about writing with a friend. Hopefully a friend. If not a friend, then a partner. Rekka: Hopefully a friend for longer than it takes to write the project. K: Hopefully a friend after you're done. [laughing] R: Yes, before and after. Hey, even after is probably more important than before. Let's be clear that you don't wanna destroy a relationship, but you can make a new friend. K: Yes, absolutely. Let's talk first about, why would you do this? R: [giggles] K: Why would you want to - and, okay so maybe a little context first. I will admit I have never worked on a project that a single story had been written or contributed to by two different people. R: As an editor, you mean? K: Yes. R: Ok. K: So why would you do this? It seems like a difficult thing to do. And for context, Rekka has done this a couple times. So Rekka, why would you do this? R: Because writing is lonely, and the idea that someone else will work on a project with you is just like the biggest longest most creative sleepover ever. K: Okay! R: It's a good reason. K: That is certainly a good reason, writing is lonely. I think a lot of writers, their editor when they get one is the first time they're really having somebody to collaborate with, and to talk to. R: To go back and forth. K: Yeah, but the editor is not writing the book. R: I know! Which is unfair, honestly. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: I wanna know who I talk to about this. K: Yeah but you know what you're right, writing is a lonely process. There's a lot of time spent sitting by yourself just having to think. R: And having feelings. K: Yeah. If you're writing with someone, you get to share those with someone else. R: And shout about things. K: Absolutely. Shouting is a necessary component to that 100% — R: It's actually kinda how it gets started, there's a lot of enthusiastic shouting about an idea. K: [laughing] R: But you know what stinks? Is that you still have to write alone. K: Well and that's exactly what I was gonna ask you. So okay, let's go through this. You've decided I'm tired of being alone here, I want to also inflict this upon somebody else. So what do you do? R: [deep sigh] How do you find someone else to inflict things upon? So the first person that I sat down to write a project with was a friend, and we said like hey we should try this out! And we were both writers to begin with, writing in fairly different genres but still genre fiction. And we decided we were going to do a project and we said hey, it will be this, like we outlined it together. We - or we didn't so much outline it together but we concepted it out together. K: Okay. R: And then we each created a POV character as part of that concept. And then we wrote our chapters back and forth, so that the tone, the voice, for that POV character is consistent. K: Mhm. R: And so that you can have a character that's slightly unreliable, just because like you couldn't catch all the continuity errors, that you and your partner - K [overlapping]: Mhm. Yup. R: - created. It also lets you kind of reshuffle the scenes if you need to later, uh move things around a little bit easier, extract things if you need to without losing too many threads. But my other experience in doing it we did not, we had one POV. So, it doesn't have to be done that way. K: Tell us about the time you wrote one POV. R: I sort of went through my text file that I keep on my phone that's just like the little random lines and concepts, phrases that occur to me. And so the writing partner latched onto one and said, “That's interesting, let's work with that.” And then that was it, we just kind of went. I wrote something and sent it to him, and then I think we gave a week or two weeks max for each turnaround, so that one person wasn't waiting on the other forever. So it kinda bounced back and forth, and it would twist a little, like I'd get back and reread what the new words were and I'd be like oh okay, that's where that's going now. K: [chuckles] R: So it felt a little bit like improv, where somebody tosses you something, and y - the guide for improv is don't say “no,” say “yes, and...” So I think I had more of that spirit in the second project than I did in the first time attempting it, where um. As a kid I used to play with my friends and we'd get the toys all out and I'd immediately have a plot. And my friends would never adhere to it - K [overlapping]: [chuckles] R: Because of course they didn't know it. They would have whatever toy they were holding do a thing and I'd be like “No no no not that, have it do this.” So I can't imagine I was much fun to play with. Nor was it probably much fun to try and write with me on the project where I didn't have the spirit of “yes, and...” I had more like “mmm. That's interesting, how's that gonna fit back into where I'm taking this?” K: Well and that's a very good point, is I think if you're going to write with somebody it has to be a genuinely collaborative effort, rather than someone coming in with a story and having someone else tell it. R: Yeah and like I said, both times it was starting from a concept that, it wasn't like, “Oh I wanna write this book, do you wanna write it with me?” K: Mhm. R: So it was two people coming together each time saying “let's work together on a thing, what should we work on, do you have any ideas, yeah sure how ‘bout this concept, okay that's interesting what can we do with that? And then how do you wanna do this? Like okay I'll write some and then you write some and then I'll write some and then you write some. K: So like just examples off the top of my head, did you read This Is How You Lose the Time War? R: Yes. K: Yeah, so that was, so that's a novella actually written by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone. And I remember going like huh, I'm curious to see how they did this, and I went back and I think I read an interview or something with them, and sure enough what they did was they outlined a plot, and then they took turns writing the letters in it, and - R: But not only that, interesting point that maybe you want to cut me off and say we'll get to that in a second - K: No, no prob. [laughing] R: But they wrote it at the same table, part of it at least. K: Yes. If you haven't read This Is How You Lose the Time War, read it, it's very good and it's a quick read. R: It won awards for a reason. K: I - yeah, it won a lot of awards. [chuckles] But the entire story is told through letters being sent back and forth between Agent Red and Agent Blue, both of whom work for separate agencies that go back in time and change things to make history fit what they want it to be. So I remember reading in this that sometimes they were, like they were writing the letters and then mailing them to each other essentially, and letting the other person correspond and reply, it was almost a bit of role-playing. But yes they did write some of it sitting across from each other. But then another good example that's the opposite: Good Omens was written by Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett and they both - R [overlapping]: [laughing] I was thinking of The Omen, and I'm like, I didn't know - wait what?! K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: They wrote that? Okay, I've caught up, continue. K: Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett, one of them wrote a lot of the main story, and then the other one fleshed out a lot of it. There's a main plot that but there's a lot of other stuff going on, and there's a lot of ancillary characters that turn out to be important to the plot but they never really gave a clear answer if it was like an assignment list so to speak, if there was like a breakdown of who was doing what. It sounds like they are just very good friends who were both very talented writers and were able to do this. I do see a lot of times when there's two authors involved, it's two different POVs, and - which is a perfectly intriguing way to do it. R: The way I always imagine it is that it starts with some sort of conference call or in-person visit, and the bones of the story are shaped out there. And then, at least far enough ahead that people can get to work writing. Because okay we're back to writing being lonely, you do have to go back to your own desk - K: [giggles] R: - and work on the project from your side, by yourself. I have heard of people writing in Google Docs so they can see the other people's words appear at - that just seems like chaos mode. K: I will say that's how I take notes at work when I'm on a call with multiple people from my side and like, I won't say it's easy, it's not terrible. R: It's very distracting. K: [chuckles] R: So I mean that would be a tremendously interesting way to do it, I would love to try that sometime. But coordinating that puts you back into the whole like ‘we have to be at the same place at the same time' aspect, which is probably not one of the benefits that most people would list of co-writing, is that you write your part of it without having to wait for the other person until like your check-in, and then you see what's come up with the other person's side of things and then you go back. And I will say again, the first time I tried to do this, we were writing in a shared Scrivener file. K: Okay. R: This was before Scrivener had real integration with Dropbox. K: The dark ages, yeah. R: Well no but - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: I don't think it would work now, because back then two people could open the same Scrivener document. Now Scrivener will tell you sorry, you can't. It would have to go back to Google Docs or something, if we wanted to do it that way where we could see all the bones of the project coming together. The second time, we were just emailing a Word document back and forth that was updated and trying to keep them straight and not work in an old version. Which didn't happen, it was short enough that I don't think either of us were confused. K: How important is it to set down rules, so to speak? Of like, “Okay. This is how this is going to happen. Then we're going to, you know, everything must be tracked here, or you have to let the other person know if you're changing something to this.” I imagine it would depend on, are you both writing in the same document or are you each writing from a separate POV and then they're gonna be combined. How did you manage that? R: So it's interesting you ask that, because the first time, my partner and I actually wrote up a contract. K: I almost asked you, and I was like you know what, that seems like something maybe you wouldn't do right at the start of this, but - R: No, I think it's important. It's a good idea to have a contract that outlines who's responsible for what, how quickly people are expected to get things back - K: Mhm. R: How royalties are going to be split. K [overlapping]: Okay. R: Like if somebody's only responsible for the outline, in terms of word count they haven't contributed the same as the other person, but is it possible that you're splitting it 50/50? Either way, put it in writing, because that protects your estate later on from trying to come after somebody in arguing how much should or shouldn't be shared. It also can say like alright, this project is dissolved if the person takes more than two months to come back with their paragraph contribution for the week. K: Yeah. R: You know, all the questions that you just outlined can be described in there, including things like how are we going to edit this? Are we going to finish this project by taking it to a professional editor, like all the nitty gritty details can go, if not in a contract, in a project outline that can be referenced in a contract. K: All of the things we've been saying in the 60-something episodes of this podcast, now imagine you have to okay them with somebody else. R: Yeah. K [laughing]: Like - R: It depends on the personalities involved. One person might be like, ‘I'm going to leave all these decisions to you.' K: Mhm. ‘I'm just here to write,' yeah. R: Well ‘I just wanna write' or ‘I am - my faith in you and your ability to do these things is greater than my willingness to try and learn them,' and then the other person saying like ‘Yes, I agree to also take on all those tasks.' K: Mhm. R: So yeah. The first project, we drew up a contract and we said what the project was, who was going to - that we were splitting it, not necessarily like even chapters but that we were going to have two POVs and the POVs would each be the responsibility of a different person. K: Did you have an expected word count? R: Yeah. I think it was a little bit like a query letter, in terms of the way that the project was described. (I was looking for it but I couldn't find it.) In the way that the project was described and then in the way that we talked about the production timeline after, it was a little bit more like a marketing plan even. Including distribution: how were we going to release this? Was it going to be Kindle Unlimited or was it going to be distributed wide through all the retailers? K: You do need something like that, because let's say you start writing with somebody and you get pretty far down the path and it turns out you fundamentally disagree on what to do with the book. Well each of you have the files now presumably, [laughing] so - R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: What are you gonna do? R: You have to trust that the other person's not going to run off with it. Also, that's what the contract is, to ensure that they don't. K: Did you sit down and kind of come up with some agreed upon stylistic choices? R: In the sense of what? Like, comp title kind of things? K: Not just comp title, but stylistic in terms of writing. Granted if you're writing two different POVs you can attribute these things to a character, but like did you decide ‘Okay this is going to be descriptive, we're going to really emphasize the natural beauty of the setting,' or ‘we're going to make sure the characters always take note of a certain thing so that we can note it to the reader.' How'd you handle worldbuilding? How did you come to terms with all of the things that an author typically has to decide on their own? R: We did not, I think in either case really, get into that. K: Okay. R: We knew enough of each other's writing to sort of know what we were getting into. K: Yeah, and that's a very good point by the way; probably don't try to collaborate on a writing project with somebody whose writing you've never read before. R: Yeah. At the very least read some before you finalize all your contracts. K: Yes. I'd say that's important and, I'm not saying this to be mean or flippant, the last thing you want is to get started on a project and find out the person's not actually a very good writer. R: Or that your styles just don't make for good story together. You are not going to find a writer who writes exactly like you; don't assume that you aren't going to come up against like ‘Oh, I don't actually enjoy reading this from you.' K: Yeah. R: You want to challenge yourself and see how you can make your two styles fit together. Because if you're not growing as you work on anything then why bother? But you also don't want it to be such a challenge that you cannot enjoy the process. K: So what do you do when you have disagreements about something? R: Well hopefully the answer is something that you've already figured out in the contract, like if you're - K: Okay. R: It's kinda like when a company goes back to their mission statement to figure out how to proceed with something. K: What about if it's a story-related thing that's not necessarily outlined in the contract? R: Give me an example. K: Alright so, let's say in the end of the fifth season of Buffy there was like a fight in the writers' room about - uh, spoiler for a show that's been off the air for about 15 years, everyone - ‘we think Buffy maybe needs to die,' ‘no there's no reason she has to die,' and then… there's a fight! [chuckles] R: Hopefully your contract has a walking clause. Something that says like alright, if at some point the parties can't decide on where the story should go, they can walk away, and at that point maybe they decide, or maybe in your contract it should say, that you need to pick who gets to take the story with them - K [overlapping]: Mhm, yeah. R: - if somebody still wants to write it. ‘Cause that's something that wasn't in the contract for my first one, and part of me - like I wouldn't write the same story -  K: Mhm. R: We never finished it. I wouldn't write the same story but there are elements I'd like to take, but they're elements that would be recognizable enough. K: Mhm. R: So, how should we have proceeded? Probably one of us should - well at this point I could write to the person and say, “Hey, I wanna write this story, do you mind if I write this story on my own, not giving you any credit?” K [chuckles]: Yeah. Or if you do, how do I compensate you accordingly? R: Or just an acknowledgement, like I'll acknowledge that the story started, and then y'know life happened, we didn't finish it. K: Well that's a form of compensation. R: Yeah. Acknowledgement is like credit in a certain way, without - but again, in that email you say, “Okay cool.” And they write back and they're like, “Fine,” and I say, “Great. Here's something I'd like you to sign, just to say that like you are aware that I am writing this, and that I'm writing it all on my own -” K [overlapping]: Yup. R: “Using new material. And that, the only thing you expect is to get a nod in the acknowledgements.” That's something that you can do if you get to the point where you disagree on something and there's no - it's like if you're to the point of fisticuffs you should probably walk away, or take a break. Are you so stressed about either the project or whatever that you're just lashing out, or is this actually a problem, this relationship that you're working in? K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: So, you know, be an adult. K: And listen, by the way. I have writers that get, I mean, so defensive, about just - no one that I've worked with on a published book, but people I've talked to, people who've asked for advice and different things. And they're so defensive about the story to an editor. Imagine, again, trying to write this with another person. R: That's the thing is you really have to gauge how well you're going to work together with this person. K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: Do you just wanna do stuff because you're friends and you like spending time with them? That might not be enough to go on for the amount of, like think of the anguish that you put into a novel project in the first place. You would think that co-authoring means you share that anguish, but you actually just each have your own anguish - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - which might make you less compatible than you are at the start. K: My grandmother always says to never marry somebody before you've taken a three-day bus trip across country with them. I kind of feel like with writers it's like alright, I wanna see you two cook dinner together in the same kitchen, making the same dish. Like you, you have to collectively present me with one dish. And let's see how that goes. [laughing] R: Are you following a recipe or are you creating a recipe? K: You have to decide. R: Hm. K: But you actually, you kinda touched on something interesting there, which is the other form of collaborative writing that I've seen in query letters a lot, you said “Is this just your friend that you wanna hang out with and spend time with?” And where I get a lot of those from is roleplaying games. R: Mhm. K: There's a lot of thought and worldbuilding and character development and everything that goes into those. The, I hesitate to even call them players, by that point they're basically writers, put a lot of time and effort into developing these characters and these worlds and things and then they interact with other people who help them contribute and grow, and that is a way that I've seen some collaborative writing come to fruition is, start out as a game. R: You have to be a very caring person to be a good gamemaster, in that you have to care about the experience of the people that you are essentially having a collaborative worldbuilding experience with. You have to want them to have fun, or they're not going to have fun. K [overlapping]: [chuckles] R: You have to have set up different paths that they can choose to take so that they have some agency in the experience as well, and you have to be willing to say ‘yes and' rather than ‘no.' And you have to be willing to accept that sort of spontaneity. The best path forward may not always be the one you expect, but if you care about working with someone in a way that 1) doesn't negate their contribution - K: Mhm. R: - and make it seem like ugh, well that almost matches what I would've done; like it's not about anybody looking for permission from somebody else, it's unwinding this coil of like where is this going, and unwinding it together. So we mentioned before that there are experiences where somebody writes the outline and somebody else writes the story to the outline, and I think that's another balancing act because as somebody writes to an outline that they've made for themselves, they feel free to deviate from it. And I imagine that also happens when they write to an outline that somebody else has written. But also, writing an outline doesn't quite transmit everything that goes into a story. It's very hard to imagine what a person intended for an entire scene based on a single sentence or a couple of sentences. So there's gotta be a lot of letting go; if one person is handling one creative step and another person is handling another creative step, again that contract but also your expectations have to be that like that first person is going to be letting go of a lot of control of the story if they're not going to participate in the writing of it. K: It certainly is an exercise in having to give up and trust somebody with something that you created and love. R: It's interpersonal relationships on a scale that usually you can separate from your personal creative self, and you would expect to put this much work into a business project or a marriage or opening a business with somebody - and again like, have a contract. Yeah you are putting that much effort into this. K: You're opening a business with someone in a respect; you're creating a product. R: Yeah we're creating a product here that can be sold and resold and rights have to be licensed and - K: Mhm. R: You have to envision the success of this to really get a grip on all the things you have to consider. You can't just ‘oh haha this'll be fun' if you are going to publish it, because you never know where it's gonna go. K: Look at some of the greatest duos of what-have-you that fell apart because of differences in ideas. R: Mhm. I mean here are the advice like, never work for friends, watch out, you'll ruin your relationship if you try to do this, I mean that's kind of true of this if you don't go into it with the right mindframe. K: So now that we've scared the hell out of everybody and never gonna wanna write a collaborative project together. What were some of the fun things about it? R: The brainstorming at the beginning was definitely really fun. Sit down with somebody that you like and you talk about what ideas might come out of something, depending on your level of prepwork, you might've had a really long conversation or you have lots of these little visual pieces that you're gonna see how you're gonna string together. Or you might have just kinda said ‘well let's just see where it goes.' K: Mhm. R: Which I think was my experience the second time, once we picked that concept out of my Word doc of random ideas that I've had. K [laughing]: By the way, if you're listening to this and you wanna be a writer and you don't have a Word document of random ideas you've had please start one immediately. R: Hopefully if you're called to be a writer and you go ‘oh, you mean I should've been writing all those down,' as opposed to like ‘oh I've gotta start coming up with ideas' - like I think if you're at the point where you don't even have ideas - K: I'm saying for ideas you've already had. R: Okay. K: You need to have a good place to keep them. R: Jot them down. But yeah, so we picked something out of my book of ideas. If it's a collaborative effort between friends, it might've even been something like that started as a Twitter conversation and now you're writing it. So wherever you get your idea from, it usually starts with social connection, friendship, enthusiasm, and hopefully it's all mutual. And then you go to the, ‘okay, are we really doing this?' K: [giggles] R: ‘Let's start the contract.' If the person's not comfortable entering into a contract with you, then that's a red flag right there, that one of you is uncomfortable with what it's gonna take to finish this project out. Because the contract is the thing that's gonna see you through it all, so if you stop and you refuse to move forward at that point, that saves everybody some trouble. But the fun things about it are that starting moment, where the excitement is just zapping back and forth between the two of you, whether online or in person. K: Mhm. R: And then seeing what the other person wrote every week and getting to respond to it in like kind. It's a little bit like writing fanfiction, in real time, with an author. K: [laughing] R: And then the other person can feel the exact same way, that they are the one writing the fanfic in real time with the author. And hopefully it is a surprise every time that you open the document to see what's new. And then you pick someone whose writing you like, whose writing you enjoy, and then honestly it kinda carries you through the submissions process. ‘Cause you're like okay well it can't be that bad because I respect this person's writing - K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: - so if they liked it, then there's just a little like ‘no, this isn't bad,' that you can hold in your heart when you get a rejection from a magazine or something. K: Aww. R: Because like, you have faith that the other person knows what they're doing, and they have faith that you know what you're doing, and together you have this piece that you both believe in, even if you are believing in only half of it. [chuckles] And not the half that, you know, you worked on. So it's just really nice, yeah. K [overlapping]: In the end you're coming together to all believe together. R: Yeah I mean, we kinda, like in the second case it was a short story, and we did finish it. So, going back and forth, one person writing a few thousand words or like kinda getting to the end of a scene, like that break moment kinda thing where like - K: Yup. R: Fade to black, commercial break, whatever you wanna call it, and then going ‘ok! I just feel good about that writing session; I'm sending this back to you.' We did that a few times back and forth. One of us sent the first 500 words in November. By the time we had finished it, it was February of the following year. And, so that's pretty quick - K: Yeah that's really quick. R: We were both on top of it; we only sent it back like a couple of times. I think our total word count is 4100 words, so, at most that was like eight back and forth of - K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: - 500 words each, or I think some of them were a little bit longer. I think once we sorta started to see where it was going some of us were - some of us - [chuckles] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Half of us - one of us would write more of that, and the other person would write more of the other. K: Okay. R: So, and then after that, we started talking about like okay what do you wanna do now, ‘let's sit on it for a month' was the response, and then we picked some markets to target and one of us was just in charge of submitting them. K: So you, you had a system, you had a plan. R: Yeah. We didn't have a contract on that one, maybe we should. The nice thing is when you say you're co-authoring, the magazine tends to send two separate payments. K: Okay, nice. R: Or at least in my experience so far, of selling this once. K: [laughing] So overall, a good experience? R: Yeah! Yeah, that one was a lot of fun. Like I said, having a totally different attitude toward where it was going and who was in charge - which was neither of us or both of us? - it was a very different experience than the first time. My first experience was with someone, we were trying to write a whole novel, and I think our intent was it might be a series. So this was like long-haul planning, and it wasn't long before I realized like I don't think our styles really mesh. And he also wrote really really fast, and kind of expected me to write really really fast, so I would turn around something after working on it for like a week or so, and then the next day he'd be like ‘okay, your turn.' And I'd be like ‘oh, see, um, this isn't the only thing I wanna work on.' [laughing] K: Yeah. [chuckles] R: And so it was also, I think, in the middle of the final phases of getting Flotsam out, so it probably felt like a disruption, and the fact that he was turning things around so fast was like, frustrating to me. Whereas like I would work on something for awhile and then think like ‘okay, there, done, check it off my list' - K [chuckles]: Deep breath, yeah. R: And the next day it'd be on my list again. K: That can get a little stressful, certainly. R: Yeah. K: I guess the takeaway from all of this then is whether or not you have a good experience with this, a lot of it comes down to you. R: And planning and expectation yeah. K: Yeah. R: You could go to the Happiest Place On Earth and be a total stick in the mud about it, so - K: Yes. R: Like, that's true of everything. K: Yeah. Yeah but there's certain things you can do to make sure that it doesn't become a miserable experience, certainly. R: Yeah. Or, that you have a way out if it does. K: Yes, yes, there you go. So yeah I think that's - any, Rekka, any parting thoughts, any final suggestions or advice? R: If it's something that you've wanted to do, I definitely recommend doing it. Try it out and see. Hopefully, it doesn't break a friendship - [giggles] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Y'know, the first time you try it. Having that contract will go a long way to having a mutual not-fun-anymore clause. If neither party is interested in going forward, then that's it. That's all that has to be said, and the project is dissolved. And if the other person is loving where it was going and wants to keep going with it, then you just have that release agreement, where like “I don't expect any royalties or anything from this, you go ahead and have fun with it.” You hate to think that you need a contract to go do something that you and a friend both love doing, but ahh, I really think it's a good idea. K: It's probably, yeah. R: At worst, it doesn't hurt, and at best, it protects you and it gives you something to fall back on if things aren't going well. But, hopefully things go very very well and you end up with a story and you sell it, like I did! K: There you go. Rekka, what's the story you sold? R: [giggles] K: You knew I was gonna ask you about - R: Maurice Broaddus and I wrote a story called The Archivist, and it sold to Lightspeed magazine and should come out sometime within the next nine months or so. One day I imagine I will wake up and have been tagged on Twitter. K: It's just gonna be on there, yeah. R: And I will be able to share it then. My recent story on MetaStellar I was told the date, and then a few days ahead of time I was told what the URL would be and when it would go live, so I was able to prepare, which was nice. K: Very nice! As always, we hope we left you with some food for thought. R: It's worth doing, if only to find out whether you enjoy it or not, but also keep in mind that it takes the right pair of minds to do it. So if you don't enjoy the first time, that doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun again. But I hope you love it, ‘cause I did enjoy it, and I really am proud of the story that came out of it. I would not have written that story on my own. K: Oh, okay, well great! R: Which is another point, like I shouldn't leave off without saying that, but like we created a story that neither of us would've written if it was just working alone. K: Greater than the sum of their parts. R: Or at least greater than the sum of half the parts. [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Alright, well that is probably enough. If you want more, or you want to be notified when the story goes live, you can send us a message on Twitter or Instagram, we are @WMBcast. You can also find us on WMBcast.com with all our old episodes. If you are listening from the future, I might come back and add the link to that story when it does go live, to the show notes. If you are listening from a very very profitable future - K [overlapping]: [giggles] R: - you might consider going to Patreon.com/WMBcast to support us financially, but we don't need that! What we would really really love are some ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast aggregator, whichever you're listening to right now. That would be so, so helpful; it helps people find us. We had someone shouting on Twitter the other day saying like ‘why are more of you not listening to this podcast?' I guarantee it's because it's hard to find podcasts, unless they have really good ratings and reviews. So please, drop us some five stars and some glowing words, they don't have to be expansive. Just like ‘this podcast rocks!' I mean, that's what I think, that's what I would write. You can use that though. I'm not gonna hold you on a contract or anything. K: [laughing] R: Alright, two weeks from now we'll be talking about something entirely different, but probably just as goofy.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 62 Transcription After intro: [00:26] Kaelyn: We're talking today about reader tension and tense situations and managing these things. And you know getting the, kinda grabbing everyone and wanting to be like ‘this is important and there's peril and stakes here, and you should pay attention to this.' Rekka: This was another topic that was suggested to us by an uncredited listener, because I failed to write down all the people who suggested a very long list of topics that we will be going through. So I apologize, feel free to @ us on Twitter and take credit for the topic. But the original question posed was how to manage reader stress, and I assume they mean the tension and anxiety that our reader feels as they go through your plot. Because, as Kaelyn pointed out, you don't want to get so anxious and wound up over a plot that you can't finish the story and you need to protect yourself for self care reasons and back away. K: We're interpreting this question as not managing the external stress of readers. There's generally not a lot a book or an author can do about that, so please don't try. R: Although! A good book can really help you escape. K: Absolutely, yes. Maybe a book that's just full of pictures of puppies. R: Also good! K: Yeah. R: Yeah. So, the anxiety and tension that we're talking about is being cast upon the reader intentionally to draw them into your story. But how do you make sure you don't go too far, and how do you ramp up tension where you want it so that they aren't just kinda reading it and being like ‘I don't care about any of this.' K: Building tension is, it's difficult. For two reasons: one, it's a hard thing to do in writing, but then two, it's also very difficult to place it in a story. Let's qualify here depending on your genre, if you're writing a suspense thriller that's just going to be a tense situation [laughing] throughout the book. Most books, I would argue the majority of books, have some sort of conflict in them. There's going to be a point at which things come to a head. It could be physical, it could be mental, it could be, you know, strictly verbal confrontation. It could be characters that never actually meet but you know were seeing each other's perspectives as they, I dunno interact over the computer, they're both trying to hack the same database at the same time.  K:I have a friend who trains people in various business ventures, and one of the things she always says is “conflict is crucible.” And what she's kinda saying there is that when you're trying to solve a problem you have to resign yourself to some conflict, because conflict helps you get information, it helps you understand what you're looking at, it helps you understand the stakes. And I think that applies well to writing, because the conflict, first of all, builds richer characters, it builds a better storyline, it helps us understand motivations and actions better. But it's also really engaging. That's kinda what we're here for. R: Yeah, I would say that a story without conflict is going to be a very milquetoast kind of story. It doesn't matter what scale the conflict happens on, but - K: Mhm. R: - you want some kind of ‘what's going to happen' to linger, right up until the end of your story, you just want to kind of change like ‘ooh! Now that happened, what's going to happen now?' You know, it kind of elevates in stages. So every story is going to have conflict that's on a - that is proportional to the scale of the story being told. So, it doesn't always have to be end of the world scenarios; it can be ‘this person needs to sort their life out, and will they get that job they want, and will their roommate discover that they're actually a sorcerer?' K: I mean I hope so. R: Right? Those kinds of conflicts can be big or small; it's the stakes of the story. And you want your reader invested in the stakes of the story, so you want them to feel a little bit of anxiety about how the story's going to go. If they don't, then they can drift away from the book at any point and forget to pick it up ever again. K: I look back at things that I read as an adult, and things that I read as a kid, and the like really intense parts where you're like trying to keep yourself from skipping ahead on the page - R [overlapping]: [giggling] K: - and you know reading as fast as possible - R: Kaelyn that is cheating. K: I know! But like I - tell my brain. [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: You know but where you're like ‘oh my god I gotta know what happens, I gotta know what happens!' And then sometimes - R: Just so everyone knows, as an editor Kaelyn wants to know the end - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: Like as soon as the author knows it. So don't feel like she just skips to the end in books she picks up at the bookstore, no she wants the spoilers all the time. K: I need to know the end to a story. I'm not one of those people who waits ‘til a series comes out to read the books, because I can't wait that long - R [overlapping]: Mhm! K: - to be [???], I need a fix in there somewhere. But this is why I'm like weirdly into unsolved mystery kinda things, because I just need to know what happened, like [laughing] I always say if I could have a superpower, it's not that I want to time travel. I don't wanna like go back and interact and change things. R: Or go forward and get lottery numbers. K: Yeah I just wanna be able to like astral project or something so I can just, I just wanna see what happened. I just wanna know what actually happened, you know, who shot JFK? What'd they do with the aliens at Rosland? Did we land on the moon? I mean - R: Roswell. K: Roswell, yes. Why did I say Rosland? R: Maybe you know something we don't because you went back in time. K: It's possible. It's very possible. But yeah, I am someone who like feeds off of that tension. And I love intrigue, I love building the story, and by the way I just touched on another way you build tension here, which is not always necessarily conflict; sometimes it's mystery. Sometimes the stakes are trying to find something, or figure something out, or solve a puzzle, or learn someone's true identity. There was definitely a heyday for this sort of thing in the 90s and 2000s, especially with young adult literature, where a lot of the tension that was building in the book was people trying to get answers about a mysterious prophecy or an object or find a lost relic. R: Ohhh, I love a good lost relic. K: Ah, the best. Romantic tension is also a thing. R: You would have to imagine it is, because in the romance novels like that is - K [overlapping]: Yup. R: - the main plot of the book. So a will-they-won't-they is a ‘what's going to happen next?' K: Yeah, a will-they-won't-they, or how will they get through this, will they ever find each other again. So I think when we say like tension in the book we're picturing like a big Lord of the Rings style - R: Oh I'm imagining the boulder in Indiana Jones just hovering over everybody. K: Okay! Or that, you know we're thinking of like direct action and conflict. But tension can be built a lot of different ways. It's not always ‘I'm going to fight this knight now to free the dragon,' and yes in my scenario we free dragons, we don't slay them. R: Absolutely! K: Dragons are people too. R: Yeah. K: Creating tension for readers is part of what's compelling about a book. Now, sometimes these get a little out of hand. I'm gonna qualify that again, genre matters a lot here. If we're talking about like a spy thriller, if we're talking about a murder mystery, a suspense thriller, something like that. Yeah, you should go in expecting a lot of tension, you should know what you're getting out of that genre. Rekka, can you think of any books offhand that you had to like put down and walk away from? R: Because there was too much tension? K: Because the situation, the intensity of the situation was making you uncomfortable. R: Hmm. K: I can think of a couple. I'm not gonna say what they are, but I've definitely had that happen. R: So you're asking if that's happened? K: Yes. Has that ever happened to you? R: No. I've never put down a book because I was uncomfortable with high levels of tension; I've put down books because there was little tension and I wasn't grabbed. K: I've got a really thick skin when it comes to this stuff, there isn't a lot that bothers me. There's been two books that, one where it was just like the violence and the tension was just getting gratuitous. With that case it wasn't that it was making me uncomfortable. It was almost like coming full circle and getting pedantic. This is so ridiculous it's almost erased the tension, I'm no longer able to suspend my disbelief. R: Okay. So, what does that say about the author's ability to manage the tension? K: Not doing a great job. R: What was broken, if you wanna use that word, in that case? K: I think in this case, there was too much trying to shock people. Trying to shock the readers reading it. R: Okay, is that tension though? K: The scenario of the book was a group of people going through some kind of a building, I don't even remember what it was, and they're getting picked off by monsters and booby traps the whole time. It started out well, because it's dark, there's a lot of sounds and things and nobody's quite sure what's like, is that us, is it something else, is something following us, we know this place is full of danger okay we just have to get through here, and then what was happening was characters were dying. They were dying in horrible ways, and they were being very - described in great detail. And again, I have a really thick skin for this. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me. But what was happening was it was actually getting to the point that it was breaking the tension a little bit, because they were losing me there.  K: So I think the author's intention was to really up the scale and the stakes, because it wasn't just like ‘and a hole opened, and Jonathan fell through and we heard screams and then nothing.' Like first of all it was breaking the tension of the story stopping to describe all of this stuff. But beyond that, it was - I don't know. It was a very strange reaction, a very strange feeling, where it was kind of like I can't tell if this is making me nauseous or if I'm bored. R: Okay. This is making me think of the movie Thirteen Ghosts. K: Yes. R: Does this, is this ringing true for you? K: That is definitely ringing true for me. I had a similar experience with that movie. On the flip side, the other one that I had to put down and walk away had to do with sex. The tension that they were building with this couple that wasn't really a couple, and the dichotomy and the power struggles here, and the clear anxiety of one character vs not the other that I think was supposed to be building romantic tension, and ooh they're so into each other, it didn't at all. R: Okay. K: It was actually, I can't read this. As I've been talking through both of these you sort of pointed something out: was it the tension or was it things that writers were trying to use to create tension that weren't actually tension-building devices? R: Right. It sounds like people are trying to use some visuals and elements that are, let's say, flashes in the pan - K: Mhm. R: - in terms of the effect they have on the reader, versus something that's actually building a landscape over which the story is traveling. And it's the landscape I would argue that you want, because jumpscares are great for a horror movie, but once you've calmed down, that's all there is. Versus actually building, in that case, dread or fear. So things that have an intense effect but the effect is not lasting I don't think are going to be what you want to use when you're trying to control how the reader paces themself to get to the end of your book. K: I think in the example I used with the violence one, you know you have these characters, they're trying to get from point A to point B, and they're getting picked off or killed horribly one by one. And on some level I understand what the author was trying to do there. Instead of simply saying ‘and this person's dead now,' they're upping the intensity of the situation by showing that they're not dead, they're dying horribly. So you're getting the collective fear and horror built into the group of the remaining survivors so you're empathizing with them more. In that scenario, I see what they were doing. They were trying to use this gore and this violence to instill an intensity in you, but it got to the point that it was too much. R: So it wasn't flash in the pan, it was just overreaching? K: Overkill, if I can make that pun? [overlapping] A little bit, please? R [overlapping]: You cannot. I've checked with our producer and - K: [grunts] R: - they're shaking their head. K: Alright, fair. [chuckling] There can be times that you just take the device you're using too far, and it jumps the shark a little bit and becomes ridiculous. R: In the case of something getting to the point of ridiculosity, are they even employing the tools that would work and just overdoing it, are they overutilizing the tools, leaning on them too heavily, abusing them, or are they in the wrong toolbox entirely? K: Exactly, yeah. R: No, I'm asking you. [laughing] K: Oh. [laughing] Um no I was going to say those are all things to consider. I think that's something you have to work with an editor on, and I think that's something that you have to have readers give you feedback about, because this for a lot of writers becomes a can't see the trees for the forest scenario. You're so deep into this, you're not reading this for the first time like most readers will be, you wrote this. Rekka you tell me, when you're rereading things that you wrote, either for fun or doing revisions, does your heart beat a little faster when you get to these scenarios? R: If it's been long enough that I forget where I'm going with them. [laughing] K: Exactly, yeah. R: Because you know what you're trying to build to, and when you're trying to write it sometimes you can feel like you're being sooo hamfisted about it. K: Yeah. Writers need help for contextualizing this, I think. Because first of all you know what's gonna happen, hopefully. [laughing] Second, you've been through it so many times it doesn't have the same punch, the same meaning that it did. R: That's one of the frustrating things about being a writer, trying to know whether you're being effective. You burn through beta readers because you need somebody who hasn't read it before to tell you whether it's working. K: Yeah so circling back to is it too much, are you leaning into it, are you in the wrong toolbox entirely, that can be a really hard thing for writers to understand. I've definitely read books where I've felt like after a few revision paths, every time the author was going through and trying to up the scare factor or the intensity factor in everything, I think that's something where you need an editor or a very good friend to help you there. R: [laughing] K: It's a balancing act. You have to maintain believability. There is a difficult-to-track issue of understanding when a situation is intense and when it's not tense enough or too intense. I've definitely read books where important things have happened, and I didn't realize that was an important thing because the writing and the way the characters were behaving didn't indicate to me that that was a significant event. And if you're going ‘oh well, what does that have to do with it?', that's building intensity. R: I recently gave someone feedback that said like ‘hey, I think this moment needs to slow down for a second, and I know there's a lot of other stuff going on, but like if you don't linger on this, it's not going to have the impact you want. K: You don't wanna have to be in a position where you gotta insert a character in the story jumping up and down screaming at the reader that something that's happening is important, but if you can't signal to them in some way that it is, that's not great. R: You have to figure out how to signal it without really putting a wavy-armed balloon man in front of it. K [laughing]: Yes. Exactly. It's difficult, and there's a reason that authors that can do this well are very successful in writing, you know, murder mysteries and spy thrillers and suspense novels and stuff. Because there're people that eat that up. That's like what they live for. I can take it or leave it. But then there are people who avoid it like the plague. R: Like you said, genre has a lot to do with it. We're getting to a point which I think is good where people are starting to put content notes on books just like you would get at the beginning of a TV show. So you know this has depictions of graphic violence, sexuality - um, there's a difference between sexuality and nudity - endangerment of a child, trauma, stuff like that. And that helps people dial in, like ‘do I wanna read this book, is this the kind of intensity I'm looking for or not?' K: Now, and that said, there may be things that happen in the book that it never would've occurred to you to put a content warning about. R: And hopefully maybe your beta readers can highlight a couple things too. K: What I'm getting at is there's going to be things that happen - in books, in movies, in TV shows - that are upsetting for a specific person for a specific reason. R: Mhm. K: There's no way to predict all of these - R [overlapping]: Yeah. K: And try to compensate and notify for that. It sounds terrible to say stick to the obvious and take in the advice of others, but that is what I would say. And I'm not saying don't write these things. Be aware of what you're writing. R: Be aware of what you're writing and then be willing to take the responsibility for the people who are going to be upset by that and say like ‘yes, this is something I felt was necessary to the plot, but I promise you I gave it thought and hopefully the people who'd be extra upset by it will be warned by friends or somebody before they pick it up.' K: For anyone who's sitting at home going - and to be honest I don't think many of our listeners think this, but maybe who knows - ‘why do I have to bend over backwards to accommodate this?' You know what, honestly, you don't. R: It's a choice you make, yeah. [chuckles] K: But it's really shitty not to when it's so easy to do. And believe me, people who suffer from particular anxieties or trauma and everything, they're ultra-aware of this stuff. They're typically not going to go into a store, pick up a random book, and say ‘I'll just read this now' because, exactly for that reason: they don't wanna put themselves in a position where the intensity of the book is going to induce an anxiety spiral. And if you think that doesn't happen, I don't know what to tell you at this point because you're wrong. [laughing] So! R: And it's also not necessarily the intensity of the book, but the specific situations and the intensity of that person's personal experience laid over top of that. K: Yeah. Exactly. So, for readers who are saying “how do I keep myself safe from this kind of thing” so to speak, read content warnings. Read reviews online. Here's a thing: read the bad reviews, read the people who didn't like the book, because the ones who are complaining about things are gonna give you a little bit more insight probably, into areas that you might find distressing. R: And you can always just post a question on Twitter, like “hey - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: “ - here's something that really bothers me in books; I'm thinking of picking up this one, anything you wanna warn me about, I'd appreciate.” K [overlapping]: Yeah. You know, I'm not saying this to put all of the onus upon the reader who's concerned about this, but, I mean do your research. If you know this is something that's important to you and something you need to manage and minimize as best you can, the best judge of character for that's gonna be you. R: For the writer, you know, sensitivity reads are not a bad idea. Like we said, we can't cover everything with a single sensitivity reader but they might be able to give you more insight. If your intensity of your plot is overlaid with a certain kind of life experience, I guarantee you can find a sensitivity reader for it. And if you don't, ask around and someone else will be able to help you. K: Yeah but I mean beyond that, content warnings do a lot. R: You can't cover everything and everyone, like - K [overlapping]: No. R: - Kaelyn was saying, you can give it a fair attempt. K: Listen, if your fair attempt is something along the lines of ‘contains violence, gore, and depictions of furries,' like, that's that's giving everyone at least a heads-up of what's in here. R: And a Venn diagram of figuring out where they fall in that. [chuckles] K: I will defend the writers a little bit here in saying that there's only so much you can do, to a certain point. [laughing] R: In order to indicate everything that happens in your book, you literally have already done that, you've written the book. You can be broad and you can welcome people to send you a note and ask you if they have a specific concern they're afraid of running into. K: I would call it a good faith gesture to do that. And, I think if there's parts in there where you're going ‘I wonder if I should explain this,' the answer is, maybe decide what it is and then just mention that that's a thing that's gonna happen in there. R: Okay, so this is managing the readers' stress literally, and kind of the external forces as we said we weren't going to cover. K: Well I mean I was joking about just like daily life stress. [laughing] R: Right, but I mean this is kind of tied to their personal experience. So, going back to considering it now a positive to build stress and anxiety, what would you say to an author who brought you their story, and it reads as a little flat. What would you tell them, how to increase anxiety in the reader, by which I mean tension in the story? K: I'm gonna flip that and ask has that ever happened to you? I know the answer to that is no because I read your writing [laughing], so! R: You know, I am really surprised by how many people have told me that my books are really tense. K: Yeah my blood pressure's definitely spiked a few times over the course of events. [laughing] R: Is it just because of Hankirk? Like is it just because he's infuriating? K: It's a lot of things, um - R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: And actually you've touched on something that I think is very interesting that you do in your writing - and this is another kind of tension that I think we don't really appreciate as a different kind of tension to build - is hopelessness. And despair. R: Aw, now I'm mad. I didn't mean to be hopeless! K: No, you weren't, but this sense of like ‘what are we going to do?' R: Mm. K: And things just like um, a sense of despair and despondency, and I'm not necessarily talking about - R [overlapping]: Look, my characters have to come back from like their lowest low, like I'm gonna make that low real fuckin' low. [laughing] K: Yeah, exactly, but that's a kind of intensity too. So yeah, you definitely do not suffer from not having well-built intensity. R: You're avoiding my question. You turned it back around on me, as though we needed to analyze me, but we've just clarified we don't need to analyze me - K [overlapping]: No, no. R: What do you say to an author who is not me, who needs a little dose of, I guess some me-ness? K: I'm very much into helping writers solve their own problems. R: Yeah you do that. K: Yeah. I find that authors frequently know there's a problem and at least have the inkling of an idea of how to fix it. I would write them back and ask them, first do you have an outline of your story? If you don't, well, depending on our timeline here, write one; if we don't have time for that, I want you to highlight for me what you think the most important points of the story are for the plot. And depending on what was going on, I might tell them I'm gonna do the same. And let's see if we match up. I like to do that one a lot. R: Yeah you do. K: I want them to highlight the most important parts of the plot, and then I'd want them to pull out some areas where maybe it's more introductory, more worldbuilding, more establishing, and compare how those are written versus the important plot points. And look at your language, look at the way you're communicating with this, because this is - and I won't go too far into the weeds on this because it's slightly off topic, but it is worth mentioning - your language changes when writing intense situations.  K: The way you describe things, the way characters communicate with each other, the way they take in their scenery, a lot of times you'll notice writers that do this well have short-clipped sentences that match the franticness of the situation. Minimal description, because they don't have time to stop and look and describe something. So I would say that you know look at this and if these very important points of the story, these parts where it should be intense where the reader should be concerned and involved and engaged, and you're writing it with the same tone and cadence that you do with the part where they're walking through a meadow - R [chuckles]: The meadow is full of velociraptors. K: Ugh. You're describing heaven. R [muffled]: Stay out of the long grass! K [laughing]: I'm just picturing them with flower crowns now. R: Ohhh, they're so happy. K: [laughing] R: Beautiful queens!  K: [with accent] “Don't go into the long grass!”  R: We really just need to admit that this is a Jurassic Park fancast. K: Yeah we do talk about it a lot. So, I would say that that's a good place to start. And in terms of like exercises you can do, read it out loud. Act it out! I stood in a room with a manuscript and like held in front of me and like done both parts of the characters and imitated how they would be yelling at each other or what have you, just to make sure that like it sounds okay and it's coming across the right way. Because if I'm doing this by like kinda like staging a play here,  then hopefully you're getting that across to the reader. I think also developing your characters and having a good idea of how they would react in intense situations. If they're acting the same across the book no matter what, well, I don't know, maybe they've got a really good valium prescription. R: [laughing] K: You should see changes in not just their actions but their body language, their speech. If Rekka and I were trying to diffuse a bomb right now, I wouldn't be telling “okay, so um cut the green wire, um,” okay and then like imitating the scene from Jurassic Park where John Hammond's giving Ellie instructions over the radio and he's like talking so calm and everything - but that's a good example because even though he's talking very calm and walking her through everything, his voice is very intense. R: And he's having an argument behind the scenes. [laughing] K [overlapping]: Yes. He's having an argument with Ian, but like his voice is very intense. And now granted, movies get to use music to help with this kind of thing. R: Yeah they cheat. K: Yeah but if I were having a conversation with Rekka and it was a genuinely tense situation where I'm trying to give her instructions on how to diffuse a bomb - now granted– Okay so we're getting a little sidetracked here but I just wanna point out Rekka says he's having a funny argument with Ian, part of the reason for that was the shock value of the next scene. R: Right. K: You're luring the reader into a false sense of security of going like, oh look it's fine, John and Ian are arguing, Ellie's got this, and I think - “Mr. Hammond I think we're back in business!” And then an arm falls on her. Oh no, wait first the raptor attacks her, then the arm falls on her. That's a good instance of diffusing a situation only to re-intensify it immediately. If I were talking to Rekka and I was talking even in the same tone that like we talk in this podcast, like ‘well you know I guess if you wanted, like, so think about the green wire, think about why the green wire is important to this bomb. And if you take the green wire out what's going to happen?' Like that, you know, that's not a good way to write that scene. R: Yeah ‘cause meanwhile Mr. Arnold's arm has fallen on my shoulder and I am flipping out. [chuckles] K: I always wondered why the velociraptor didn't eat that, or how that happened. Like - R: I assume it like got bit off and then went flying and got caught in that little corner - K: I guess, but like it seems - R: Look, they needed it to fall on Ellie's shoulder. K: I know, but like it seems like it was in like wires, and it's like how did that get there? Did the raptor go back and - R [overlapping]: This is, this is going back to the believability of the situation and is it going to suck your reader out of the moment and go, ‘wait, how?' K: I remember being 10 years old and watching that and going, ‘how did that get there?' R: I also had that thought but I didn't linger on it, because - K [overlapping]: Ah, no. R: Ellie was being chased by a raptor, dragging a big flashlight, and I was worried like the flashlight was gonna get stuck on something and she wouldn't be able to keep going. K: But yeah it's, that would be kind of where I would start. And if the problems are still persisting, if we still can't get to a place where I feel like okay I understand that something important is happening, I understand that there's peril here, I understand that these two characters have left very angry at each other, that sort of thing, then that's a different conversation. That's a conversation about writing style and technique. And, that's harder to fix. R: You can't just add six more raptors and fix it. K: Six more raptors fixes everything, Rekka. R: Okay. Back up. You can just add - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - six more raptors; there's your fix for everything. K: Yes. R: But you do have to exercise it with extreme care. K: More raptors! R: - because people will pick up if you just do it every time. K: Yeah. If your solution to everything is add more raptors - R: Get your own solution - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - my solution to everything is add more raptors. K: Yeah that's, that's fine. R: Yeah, I thought so. K: It solves multiple problems, not just intensity of the situation problems, so. R: Mhm! K [chuckles]: I think that's it. If it's something you're struggling with, I hate to say this, but like this is something you just kinda have to work on. It's one of those style and technique things that, I won't say can't be taught because absolutely you can take writing classes that would help you with this, but I think it's something that also just comes from practice and learning. R: And I would suggest doing it with short fiction, because that's a really great way to learn how to control the pedal. K: Absolutely. R: To adjust your pressure on your reader. And also to build it quickly, because in a short story you don't have a lot of room, so it's a boiled-down condensed version. And also being shorter you get more practice, ‘cause you get to write more of them. K: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, that's my final thoughts on managing intensity in books is: it's not easy. There's a reason people who do it well make a lot of money off of it. R: It's not like if you aren't making a ton of money off of it that you're no good at it. To that point, pick up a book and see how someone else is doing it. K: One of the best ways to get good at writing is reading a lot. R: Yep. And steal everyone else's tricks. Except mine; the raptors are mine. K: Only Rekka's raptors. Ahh, that's what we need, a book series called Rekka's Raptors! R: Vick's Vultures but - K: I know. R: But it's dinosaurs. K: I'm already unfolding it in my head, trust me. R: Oh yeah. K: [laughing] R: Send me the outline. [giggles] K: See this is the problem is, I have all of these ideas of books that I would love to exist in the world and I need someone to write them for me. [laughing] R: That's what I said, send me an outline, I work really well off an outline! K: Yeah. So I think that's, that's the end of the episode. Hopefully it wasn't too much for you. R: Even if it's not the end of the episode, we're done. [laughing] K: Yeah. I think that - R [overlapping]: The raptors got us. We're in the long grass. K [laughing]: Does he say ‘the long grass' or ‘the elephant grass?' R: You know what? I recently read an article about how we all remember lines differently - K [overlapping]: Yes. R: - because of the different aspects we're focused on. So let's just assume that anybody quoting Jurassic Park to the point where you get the quote, has said it right. K: Okay. That's fair. R: I think that's like a way to be kinder to other people. K: Tension! It's good. R: The right amount is good. The wrong amount is bad. K: Yes. I can't even say in moderation because sometimes it's not moderation that makes it a - R: Sometimes the whole point is not moderating it. Except moderating the effect that you want in terms of, ‘hey, I the author have control and am moderating how much I want,' there. That's - K: Yep. R: That's the moderation that we're talking about. [laughing] K: Exactly. R: We should stop. K: [laughing] R: This episode isn't going to have a nice end, it's just going to - K: Ooh, maybe it just cuts to black mid sentence. [laughing] R: Well that's not a great pressure valve on your tension. Yeah no, let us know how this episode needs to end. You can @ us on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast, you can find us and all our old episodes at wmbcast.com. Please remember to subscribe, please remember especially to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and if you somehow just really wanna support my love of velociraptors, you can go to Patreon.com/wmbcast and send us some financial support, and I promise I will spend it on dinosaur plushies. K: Oh, I was gonna say velociraptor food. R: Well, I am the velociraptor food. K: Which now that I'm saying it I think is just goats, so. [laughing] R: No that's T. rexes, and it didn't work anyway. K: Yeah, they dropped the cow in the velociraptor. R: Yeah that's true - oh wait am I a velociraptor? Because I've been eating cow this week. K: You have, yeah. R: Hmm. K: Hmmmm. R: We'll have to investigate this in a future episode. K: Hey, because the mystery is building tension. R: Yeeeah, that's it. K [laughing]: Alright everyone, thanks very much for listening. R: For your indulgence. K: [laughing] R: Take care everyone!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: So it’s funny you picked this when I was still studying history, that was something we always had to consider. Is this group, is this person part of determining where they fit into historical context as determining do they have agency? Can they act on their own behalf? Structure is what keeps someone in place; agency is what allows them to act freely. Rekka: Where would you put Odysseus, in this context? K: I would make Odysseus a failed attempt at agency. R: [laughing] K: Well, maybe failed agency isn’t the right--because he is displaying agency. He’s trying to do something, and he’s having to frequently overcome obstacles. That said, those obstacles are things that keep happening to him, rather than him directly engaging. R: Right. K: So it’s a little bit of a, uh. R: Weird example. K: No it was a good one, I liked it. R: No it’s a good example but it’s not a good role model for agency in your novels. K: Odysseus isn’t a good role model for a lot of reasons. R [laughing]: That’s just one of them. K: [laughing] R: Be the person who ties yourself to the mast, rather than give in to the sirens. Actually fuck it, give in to the sirens. It’s 2021, let’s just go for it. K [laughing]: That’s a very bad--I feel like 2020 was the year to give into the sirens. [laughing] R: Yeah, but what is 2021 but 2020 persevering? K: No, we’re slowly defeating it. We’re claiming some agency for ourselves. R: I am still in this room. K: [laughing] R: I have always been in this room. How are we defeating anything? K: I think I was born in this room. R: Kaelyn, have you and I met for smoked meats in a restaurant? K: We haven’t. R: Right. So, nothing has changed. K: Yeah. R: Have we hung out in a library with random strangers at the same table? K: No. Some of whom are handwriting books. R: Yeah, no. This is not happening. So today I called you here to talk about agency. K: So in that scenario do I have agency? Because I made the decision to join you. But-- R: But--are you allowing this topic to happen? Or are you actively engaging in the expression of our ideas? K: Oh both. R: [laughing] K: Definitely. R: Once you get past some of the other, like, identify your theme, and helpful advice for writing like that-- K: Strengthen this character arc, you know, the really nice vague feedback. R: The really helpful, helpful specific feedback. You might also end up hearing that your character needs more agency in a scene, or in the story overall. And as with the others, this can be really helpful advice. If you know what it means. K: Yeah um, it I think falls into the category of frustratingly vague advice that is absolutely rooted in important context. R: But it’s also really true. K: Yes, yeah. R: Which is just the worst part. There’s nothing worse than vague advice that is also correct. K: It is vague advice, but I think when you’re dealing with things like ‘work on your character’s agency,’ ‘strengthen this arc,’ ‘identify the themes in your story,’ those are big picture things. So. Definition—as always love to start off with that—uh, agency in general, the definition is “an action or intervention, especially as to produce a particular event.” Acting, essentially. Taking action. Doing something. Trying to influence the outcome. R: Not just action but pro-action. K: Yes. For characters in books, agency is basically when a character can make choices and act on their own behalf. R: What is it about agency that gets turned into a secret agency that acts against aliens, or whatever--I’m just playing around with etymology here-- K: [laughing] R: But how’s that word get turned into that meaning? K: The way I always took that was that an agency is meant to act on behalf of a group of people or towards a certain end. So, if we wanna take S.H.I.E.L.D. - R: Okay. K: So agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Their job, their directive, is to protect Earth from large-scale global threats. Everything they do, every action they take, is to further that outcome. Real world example: the CIA, Counter-Intelligence Agency. They have a very specific job. It’s to try and out-maneuver, out-intelligence if you will, foreign and domestic hostile powers. R: Okay so the word is not trans-mutated in any way, in the way that it’s applied to an organization. It still means taking proactive action toward a goal. K: Yeah, so I did look up the definition of agency in that regard: “a business or organization established to provide a particular service, typically one that involves organizing transactions between two other parties.” R: So like, a literary agent. K: There you go. Here’s a good example, the Environmental Protection Agency. R: Mhm. K: Their directive, their job is to protect the environment. What do they do? They organize, they create scenarios, be they either laws or policies or transactions even, that further their goal of protecting the environment. R: This is a group of people that are acting for one goal. In our writing, when we talk about agency, we’re generally referring to character agency. As in we have a main character, they are serving as our POV - point of view - and think of that term as the window through which you experience the story. Your viewpoint into this story and this world. So, everything that this character chooses to do is how you experience the story. So by acting on a desire, they create tension as to whether there will be an obstacle that they can overcome, whether they make a decision to do something that frightens them a lot, or whatever - you get to experience that tension. So if this character goes with the flow - K: [laughing] R: - how much tension do you get to experience? K: Yeah so what this means when you get this feedback, ‘I need you to work on your character’s agency here,’ is that it means the character is being very passive. They’re being more reactive than proactive. Oh I’ve got a good example: Twilight. R: Bella is a classic example and often referenced example of a character who doesn’t actually do much. And this is part of that Mary Sue criticism that gets used in the wrong places a lot, but in this case what we’re talking about is Bella is a bodysuit for you to crawl into, and see this world. K: Well Bella is almost worse than that. In some cases Bella is an object. She is sort of a MacGuffin that furthers this story. Something I always like to trot out is, if this character weren’t here, would things go that differently? R: [laughing] K: Now, in Twilight yes they would. Because a lot of conflict, a lot of the story, whatever, does center around Bella, but it is more just the fact that she exists than anything else. If she were a particularly tasty cow that all of the vampires also wanted to eat, well - that’d be a different story too. [laughing] R: Yeah, that’s a weird one. K: No, but if she were something like a magic ring that lets the vampires turn back into humans or something, you could possibly just sub her in with a magic ring. And a lot of those story elements could still happen. R: So is your character interchangeable with an inanimate object? K [laughing]: My favorite one, ever, that I promise I’ll stop on this side note - Indiana Jones. R: Mhm. K: - is completely irrelevant to the first movie. If he weren’t there, everything would go exactly the same way. That said, Indiana Jones has agency. R: He is trying. K: He’s trying. He’s not doing the best job, but he’s trying. Um so, you can have a character that maybe if they weren’t there things would progress as normal. My whole point is Indiana Jones, regardless of whether or not he not only shows up, exists, the storyline with Marion and getting the Ark of the Covenant, we still end up with the Nazis opening the Ark of the Covenant on a remote island. R: Just turns out it was a bad idea. [chuckles] K [laughing]: Just turns out you shouldn’t go poking around in these things. R: Yes. And that had more to do with Belloq being his agency to, as he put it, take whatever Indiana Jones had, and possess it himself. K [overlapping]: Yes. R: And then him not being able to resist looking in the Arc. Now, had the Arc made it to Hitler, would Hitler have known how to use it? I mean, he studied all this stuff. It’s very possible that he might’ve put it to more diabolical use, rather than just frying himself as Belloq did. K [overlapping]: Yeah. Yes. Um, you know, in Twilight, the character that has agency there is not Bella, it’s Edward. R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: He’s the one who’s making all the decisions, he’s the one who’s making the choices. He chose to stay and pursue Bella. He chose to let her know that he was a vampire. He chose to eventually make her a vampire. R: Mhm. K: Bella is a thing that all of this is happening to. R: The prize to be won. K: Yeah. Bella’s a very passive character, and there’s points in the story where she does make decisions, but the choices then are even things that are forced upon her. R: Here’s an example of not, apparently, including much agency in your character, and still having an incredibly successful book series. K: And movies. R: So as with all advice- K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - feel free to break the rules and have a smashing success and good on you. K: There is an exception to every rule to be sure. But, as you kinda said right at the get-go, one of the biggest criticisms of Bella is that she is an empty skin suit for the reader to crawl into and make themselves feel as though they are the star of the story. People who have agency don’t feel like that. It’s part of character development. If Bella were making a lot of choices and decisions and stuff, you’d have readers going “Well that’s not what I’d do, why would she do that, that’s so ridiculous.” And then you distance yourself from that character because you’re establishing them as a fully realized person. R: Right. K: Rather than the empty skin suit slash object. R: Right. Now, Big Lebowski. K [laughing]: Oh God, that’s a good one, okay! Um, God I haven’t watched that movie in forever, I love that movie. R: So he starts out, he gets up, he goes to the grocery store, he gets the ingredients for his White Russian, he drinks half of it there, he goes home. K: “Where is the money Lebowski?” [laughing] R: This has happened to him so far. Somebody mistakes him because he shares a surname with a very rich person, and they walk into this very shabby home and somehow think that they’ve found the right place. Now he isn’t gonna do anything about it. K: Yeah. R: He goes on with his life. He just is kind of sad about it, but his friends convince him - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: - that he needs to do something about it. K: Except the guy pees on the carpet. And that carpet really tied the room together. R: It really tied the room together! But he is not going to act until he’s convinced by his friends to act. K: This is another thing with agency. It’s okay for characters to be sort of passive and have things happen to them. That’s what starts the story- R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: - going. You don’t, don’t get me wrong. There’s plenty of stories out there with someone going “I woke up this morning and decided to do this thing.” R: Mhm. K: Or they start out with a quest, or they come up with something on their own. [overlapping] R [overlapping]: You’re in media res, so you’ve already gotten to the point where they want something. K: Yeah. But typically even if we pick up within that point something had to happen to them a lot of times beforehand, for them to want to go get the magic ring that lets you turn back into a human. R: Yeah and often you find that the character starts off trying to do a thing that isn’t the thing they decide they need to do in the end. I mean that’s kind of part of the whole character arc, is deciding what it is they really want. The Dude really wants a nice comfy life with his White Russians - K: And his bathrobe. [laughing] R: And the rug that ties the room together. K: Yeah. R: So it bothers him enough to complain about it, but not enough to act on it. Then he is cajoled into acting upon it. And he goes and finds himself embroiled in a large plot, where things kind of continue to happen to him. K: With movies you can watch a series of strange events unfold, because there’s the visual component that - often these are comedies. It’s almost slapstick. We’re just watching this person who all he wants is to go bowling with his buddies, sit in his bathrobe, and drink White Russians. And he ends up getting pulled into this bizarre situation. R: Being sent to have a physical ‘cause turns out he’s gonna father a child, and also toes get cut off - K: You want a toe? I’ll get you a toe next week. [laughing] Lebowski is a rather passive character. He doesn’t have a ton of agency. That said, once he gets involved in this he does make decisions even if they’re just ‘I want to get out of this alive.’ R: Yes. And he observes clues and he starts to put things together that probably they expected him not to do. They really thought that he would just kinda take the fall for things, or just go along, get paid, go home, and return to his life. K: Yeah. By the time he gets to the end of the story, his motivation is something between ‘I need to figure this out’ and ‘I’m not letting this random guy who got me tied into all of this get away with it.’ Does the Dude have agency? Sometimes, a little bit, if he can get the energy and motivation together to feel like it, which is by the way very in line with his character. R: Yeah. K: It is very typical with books to start out with characters just living their life. People by nature are passive. But you ever notice that when someone says “I’ve decided to do this thing,” it’s usually an announcement. It’s usually like “I’ve decided to change jobs.” “I’ve decided to buy a house.” “I’ve decided to ask this person to marry me.” It’s a decision you make to take action. Whereas most of our lives are just kind of us living our life, yeah after I’m done here I’m gonna have some soup I made, I’m very excited about that. I’m deciding to have soup. Is that agency? I don’t think so. You know in your day-to-day lives, agency are things that you’re trying to act for your benefit. I’ve decided to buy this house, because I worked very hard and I think this is a good investment and I think I’ll be happy and comfortable here, and this will improve my life a measurable amount that I want it to. R: Mhm. K: When characters act with agency, you know a lot of times they’re in situations that are not normal day-to-day things. There aren’t a lot of books out there about someone’s decision to work really hard, save money, and buy a house. R: Well that’s the first 25% of a book, that 25%, that storyline is gonna go away, or be severely altered. K: That house is haunted as hell. [laughing] R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: For a character to have agency, they have to do three things. They have to be able to act in their environment, which means that if you said a character, let’s say a human being, and you put them on an alien planet where literally everything is made of gas, that character’s not gonna have any agency because they can’t do anything. R: Right. K: But not only is everything made of gas, but the lifeforms that live there physically cannot communicate with the human, or have no interest in doing so. R: Right. K: So that person can’t interact with their environment; they’re not gonna have any agency, they have to just sit there and wait for something to happen. R: Unless the plot of that story is ‘how do I get to the point where I can talk to these aliens?’ There have been many Star Trek episodes like this, where you can’t communicate with the other aliens and the plot is ‘how do we find common ground?’ So, the decision to do so is agency, but the human who says “Well, all these molecules are just too far apart, I guess I’ll just sit here.” K: [laughing] R: That character has no agency. K: So the second thing is a character has to be able to make meaningful decisions. So, in the case of our character sitting on the gas planet, they’ve gotta make the decision of ‘I’m gonna find a way to gather all of this gas and condense it into something solid that I can use to my benefit.’ R: Right. K: They have to have a way to work towards their own benefit. Even if it’s not working towards their own benefit they have to be presented with situations in which they can make a decision. Even if it’s ‘the army’s invading, there’s two sides of this city, we’re only gonna be able to fend them off from one, we have to evacuate the other.’ The character making the decision of ‘okay, we’re gonna evacuate the east end, move everybody into the west end, and here are the reasons that we’re doing this and that’s why it’ll give us a better advantage.’ That’s displaying agency. The third thing is the character’s ability to affect the story. And this is different from making decisions. This is where Indiana Jones fails. R: Right, right. K: Because he doesn’t actually affect the story really. Sure, he’s got some wacky hijinks, he shoots a guy who just wanted to have a nice sword fight - R: Cracks a whip. K: Cracks a whip, somehow hitches a ride on a submarine, you know, things happen. R: If it wasn’t for Sallah he wouldn’t have even made it halfway through the movie. K: Exactly. Is he entertaining? Absolutely. It’s a delight. But he doesn’t do anything that changes the outcome of what’s happening. So, this is different than making a decision. Because a character needs to have an impact on the story. If you erase them from the story and nothing changes, that’s not a good character. R: You have some characters who maybe aren’t the decision makers, but if they’re the person with the special skill, or you know they’re the person with the strength or the fortitude to go ahead with the story that the other character doesn’t have, and you end up with a nice balanced team-up of brains and brawn. Obviously if you take the brawn out of that story, it is going to affect the story. Now, take Indiana Jones out, and you definitely have a very different movie. K: Absolutely, yes. R: Sometimes the character is required for the tone. K: Like a swashbuckling adventurer. R: Think of Jack Burton in Big Trouble in Little China. K: Okay. R: He’s not actually the hero of the movie. At one point a big fight scene starts, and he shoots his gun in the air and ends up knocking himself out when the ceiling falls on him. And for the greater portion of this fight scene he is prone on the ground. He’s almost like the story’s style, but he’s not the story’s main active character. K: Yeah. R: You know there’s parts where yes, they need him because he’s tough and he can fight, but so can the other characters. There’s a lot of characters doing a lot of stuff in that movie, and Jack Burton - you would notice, if you saw it and they removed him and then you watched it again, you would definitely notice his absence. But does his absence change the story? Would his friend have not gone to rescue his girlfriend? He definitely would have. And he definitely would’ve done it without Jack, but he talked Jack into helping. It’s interesting how many stories we enjoy end up with characters who draw a lot of attention to themselves, like Indiana Jones, like Jack Burton, without actually making a huge difference in the plot of the film. Or, I’m saying film ‘cause we like to use movies as shortcuts. But um - K: [laughing] R: How does this work in a book? Let’s go back to our favorite, Gideon the Ninth. Gideon kinda doesn’t have a clue what’s going on! K: Gideon is a little bit of a passive character. R: Yeah! But it’s delightful [laughing], just like Indiana Jones and Jack Burton. K: She gets dragged along on this adventure, which we find out is basically one giant series of death traps. She doesn’t know why she’s there. She’s there to serve as a lens of the story for the reader, because the other main character that we’re introduced to here is of course Harrowhark. R: Harrowhark has a lot of agency, and it’s all off the page. K: Because Harrowhark can’t be bothered to tell anybody about it. And, if she did, if she was the point-of-view character in that first book, we would have no idea what was happening. We need all of this to be told to us through the lens of Gideon, who is more like us than, like, Harrowhark. R: Yeah. Right. K: Of course by the end of the book you know this changes; we’ve learned some things, we’ve solved some mysteries. But Gideon is sort of a passive observer. Yes, she’s poking around, she’s talking to people, she’s gathering information, but really she can’t do anything with it until Harrow tells her what’s going on. R: And she’s only there because Harrow has made her promise to go along on this venture and then she’ll get the thing she wanted in the beginning, which she was pretty close to succeeding except Harrow was the obstacle. So Harrow said, “Do this thing with me, and then I’ll give you what you want.” And so Gideon goes along specifically for that purpose, and how much more passive can you be than just being like ‘if I just tap my foot throughout this book, I’ll get to the thing I want.’ K: Yeah. She literally just wants me to sit in a room and do nothing. R: Harrowhark has even said “do not speak to anyone.” K: Yeah. Don’t talk to anyone, don’t do anything, stay in this room, be here when I get back. R: So of course, the plot happens because Gideon’s like uhh you don’t tell me what to do. K [laughing]: Yeah it’s not agency so much as annoyance. R: Two people who can’t stand each other so why would one do what the other one wants. K: Yeah. Exactly. R: That is kind of the plot of Gideon the Ninth, but in the most delightful way that I just made sound as flat as possible. K: You’re right, because Gideon serves the purpose of one: as I said providing the reader with context and perspective, but two: also, she’s awesome! R: Yeah. K: And we like watching her swing this giant sword around, and be muscle-y - R [overlapping]: Yeah, flex for the other people in the book. K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: And also like look at people and go “There’s something wrong with you” [laughing], you know? K: Yes. Yes. Um, be the perspective of ‘This is all really weird, how am I the only person who sees that this is all really weird?’ R: Mhm. K: So. Um, yeah, so that’s a good example of characters who are passive but are compelling. So if you’re thinking to yourself ‘well, if that’s a thing that’s allowed, why do I need to strengthen my character’s agency?’ Because it depends on the story you’re telling. And it depends on what you’re trying to do here. If you have a character who is supposed to be your main character, your protagonist, they’re supposed to be leading the charge, and what they’re doing is they’re tripping from event to happening back to other event, just sort of letting stuff happen to them rather than doing things themselves, that can get really boring to read.  K: The second and third book in the Ember in the Ashes series, there’s a character in there named Helene. And - I won’t ruin too much for anybody who hasn’t read these, and full disclosure I’m still finishing the fourth one - in the second and third books especially, Helene is running around putting out fires. She is desperately trying to manage an unmanageable situation. At the same time though, she’s trying to figure out ‘how do I solve this bigger problem that I’m trying to face? How do I mitigate these circumstances?’ I was so excited whenever it was one of her chapters, because that was the thing that I thought was most interesting, was watching her just get things heaped on her. Every time she turns around something else bad is happening, that is just one more thing she’s gotta deal with. So was she displaying agency? In the second book I would say not as much, by the third book we’re certainly getting there. But, it’s still compelling because the way she is acting on her own behalf is not necessarily for herself maybe, but for other people. R: Okay. K: Watching someone deal with and try to mitigate overwhelming circumstances, I would say, is a form of agency. Even if they are just running around putting out fires. R: Trying to survive - K [overlapping]: Yes. R: - this moment, as opposed to having a plan for the next two weeks to six months - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: - toppling the empire, etc. It’s okay if they’re just trying to get back to normal. K: Yes. Or, just trying in the case of Helene, just trying to make sure her family’s safe. Let’s start there. That’s small step number one, I’ve gotta work on that. Okay small step number two, now I’ve got a deal with the residents of this city. Now I’ve gotta figure out how I’m gonna deal with this other maniac, and there’s all of these forces and factors that she can’t really do much about. But she can make decisions. R: Right, so in an earthquake, a character obviously isn’t going to defeat the earthquake. K: I defeated an earthquake last week, Rekka, I don’t know what you’re talking about. [laughing] R: Okay. In a typhoon, Kaelyn’s not gonna go punch a typhoon. K: No no, earthquakes are far more punchable than typhoons. R: Right. So you can trust that Kaelyn’s gonna go check on friends and family, uh, Kaelyn’s going to act in ways that clearly are important and have great meaning to her personally, even if they’re not going to fix the fact that there’s a typhoon, or the fact that you know FEMA’s gonna have to come in and that sort of thing. So what about characters with examples of great agency? Like the Quest plot. Is that agency or is that ‘this wizard told me I need to go do this thing’? K: Well okay so I will, we can talk about the Quest plot and then I’ll give you what I think is a good example of someone who has agency and, I’m going to put them into the same story, which I know we’ve been talking about this series a lot, Shadow and Bone and the Six of Crows. For those who haven’t read or watched it, hopefully you know that one is a trilogy, the other is a duology, they’re separate storylines but the Netflix series collapsed them both into one. R: So go read the books anyway, because Netflix made some choices. K: So the first trilogy Shadow and Bone, Alina Starkov is a very, a little bit of, especially for the first book, a passive character. You know she discovers she has this power, and she is tasked with solving this big problem because she has this power. She does start to display agency in the story but if things had just progressed along that sort of Quest storyline - you could argue that it even does a little bit because ultimately there is a problem that she is the only one that can solve. R: Mhm. K: So, is that agency? Well, the way she goes about handling it in the story, breaking away from the wizard character and trying to decide to do this her own way is certainly displaying agency. R: Right. K: Conversely, in the Six of Crows, we have the character Kaz, who is sort of your underworld rogue-type but not in a charming way. I would actually say he’s quite the opposite of charming. He’s very stoic, very serious, very no-nonsense. But Kaz makes a lot of decisions to try to accomplish goals and to better the lives of him and his friends. There’s some revenge scenarios here, but in the revenge scenarios it’s reclaiming things that were taken from him. R: Right. K: There’s friends to liberate, there’s people to try to help and better their lives, there’s people they encounter along the way that get into bad situations. He is a character with a lot of strong agency. Even before we meet him, we can see everything he’s done, everything he’s worked towards to build himself up to a point where one day he can maybe do this one thing he’s trying to get to. I would say he’s a great example of somebody with a lot of agency. R: Right from the start. K: Yeah. R: So he’s got a plan, and this plan is the focus of the story. K: Yes. Of course, wrenches get thrown into it, because - R: Just in terms of Luke Skywalker just wants to escape the farm life, that’s his desire at the start. But what he ends -- I mean he does get that, but it turns into a much bigger story. K: Katniss Everdeen from Hunger Games. Does she have agency? She is mostly reactive. She only volunteers because her sister got picked as tribute. R: But she’s volunteering to protect her family, which you might say is proactive decision. K: At the same time though, if Katniss had not volunteered, would any of the subsequent events in the story have happened? No. Her decisions are impacting the story. That said, she is very manipulated a lot through this entire story. R [overlapping]: Oh yeah. And I think that’s just the way that as a character, we express that just ‘cause you’re a hero doesn’t mean you can’t be fooled, you can’t be misguided, you can’t be manipulated as you said. I thought that was incredibly different from anything I’d read of an adventurer-hero story, because you realize a hero doesn’t always make the right decisions. K: Yeah. I have a lot of mixed feelings about that book series as we’ve discussed in this - R: I’m not saying I’m happy with the way it ended, but that definitely opened my eyes, and I think influenced me. As a result, my characters definitely made decisions that they thought were sound, or they thought were motivated correctly, or were the right thing to do or whatever, that end up making more of a mess. K: Yeah. Now that said, with Katniss one of the things I will say bothered me a lot in this, and this is I think a product of trying to shoehorn motivations into areas where it doesn’t already exist, Katniss is -- there’s a scene, it’s much more pronounced in the movie but it is in the book -- where they’re at District 13. And they’re all sitting in this bunker and it’s ‘let’s talk about a time Katniss has inspired you, she’s this symbol. She is the Mockingjay.’ I don’t know if this was on purpose, I don’t know if this was the intent, but I couldn’t come up with a better way to just be like this character is almost inconsequential to what they’re doing. They just need her to stand heroically in front of people. I really think that a 16-17 year old girl was probably not the sole motivation for overthrowing an entire super-oppressive government, but. [laughing] R: Again, I am not going to jump in front of a train for this book series - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: But I could see the development of a character who stands up to the government on TV that the government requires everybody to watch. K: Yes. R: Like this is a program that the government is putting in front of people’s faces because they want people to know that people will pay for their past transgressions, until they deem that they’re done. And Katniss says, “No. It’s not gonna be one survivor, I’m not going to kill the person that I grew up with because I need to survive; we’re both going to survive” and that turns into a big moment- K [overlapping]: Yes, it did. R: Also she honors the person from the other district with whom she’s supposed to be competing, but they all see her treat Rue like a human being, which is not something that you get from this government. K: There’s these tiny acts of rebellion. But I would say that it’s all undone by the fact that she doesn’t actually want any part of this. She wants to go back to her life and be done. Now that’s, I would argue, not agency, because what she’s having to deal with is the fallout of decisions that she made for survival, rather than because she wanted to make a statement. R: No I understand that, but I’m saying again with the hero doesn’t always make the right decisions, also, person who makes a couple decisions where other people can see them suddenly find themself turned into this bigger than life character - K [overlapping]: Yup. R: I felt like that was part of the character arc, coming to terms with being this person everybody now expected her to be, and sometimes needed her to be, in order for them to go on. K: I found book Katniss a very grating character, I didn’t - R: You are not the only one, I have heard this plenty of times. K: I didn’t like her much but one thing I appreciated about her was how much she just wanted to be left alone. [laughing] R: Yeah! I mean, we can all relate to that. K [laughing]: We can all relate to that. It’s just like, I get it. I don’t really like you that much but I totally get it. She’s capable, as you said, she’s a fast thinker, but she’s not a leader. In fact in the second book they have a whole plot going on behind the scenes that she doesn’t know about until the very end, because everybody looked at her and went ‘I don’t think she’s gonna be helpful here.’ [laughing] R: Yeah. K: We would be better off just doing this on our own. R: Yeah. K: And I really appreciate the writer’s acknowledgment of that. [laughing] But again, in the second book she is reverted back to a very passive role, this stuff is just happening to her. Even more so than in the first one. R: And then it continues in the third book, where they take her on this SWAT team adventure, and she’s just like ‘what the fuck’s going on?’ K: Yeah ‘cause they’re gonna go shoot all of this war footage of her. But then, she does make the decision ‘I’m going with this because I wanna get us into the Capitol, so that I can go kill the president.’ R: Right, right. K: So there we do have Katniss with agency, with a plan. R: Mhm. K: How important do you think plans are to characters having agency? R: This is a really good question. We’ve just described a lot of main characters who don’t really have a plan. K: No, no. R: And who are all highly successful IPs. Sometimes I think figuring out the plan can be the character’s arc. They know they want something. They try and fail and try and fail, and it’s because they don’t know how to go about it, or there’s something that they need to let go of or gain in order to figure out the best way. You know like a heist movie. K: I swear I was just thinking of a heist movie. [laughing] R: The plan is happening all along. K: Yeah. R: And it’s the reader watching it, and being misled about things going wrong that it turns out were part of the plan anyway because there’s always that aspect of the heist that you don’t hear about ‘til the end, and you get to watch it again and go ‘Oh now I see!’ K: ‘Yeah that guy was in the background the whole time.’ R: Yeah so obviously in that case the plan is not the plot. The reveal is the plot. The red herrings are the adventure, I don’t know. Sometimes a character figuring out what they want is the plot. K: Mhm. R: The idea I think is that the character starts with a sense of the way things are right now are not good. K: I think there’s a lot of this in anime. I’m thinking of Inuyasha right now, did you watch that? R: No. You’re gonna have to talk Sailor Moon if you’re gonna keep me on your level. K: Okay, let’s talk Sailor Moon. Let’s talk the original anime run, where they really fleshed out a lot of the episodes, and remember at one point they’re trying to track down the seven rainbow crystals. You know Sailor Moon becomes Sailor Moon not by choice, she just is. R [overlapping]: Yup. K: And she’s got a talking cat that tells her to fight demons. R: And yells at her for not doing her homework. K: And at the same time, she’s not only gotta find these other sailor scouts, and identify them and get them to accept their fates and roles but because this is anime everyone’s like ‘Ah yes! This is what I was meant for the whole time!’ In the first season of the anime they’re tracking down these seven rainbow crystals. So they don’t necessarily know why they’re tracking them, and at one point Tuxedo Mask has one and they’re like that’s fine, he can just hang on to it. R: [laughing] K: They’re just like well we don’t want the bad guys to get these. We don’t know why. But then we find out, oh no wait, it turns out we actually need all of them. R [overlapping]: Yeah. K: Why? Well we’re not sure yet. Okay now we know why we need all of them. And, oh crap, there’s the princess! And why do we need the princess? Because the princess can wield this power that’s going to defeat Queen Beryl. The agency there I think is - well first of all accepting and embracing ‘hey this is something I have to do.’ But also then incremental goals. And sometimes your plan changes. Sometimes it turns out that Sailor Venus is not the princess. R [overlapping]: [laughing] Yeah. Yeah. K: It’s actually Sailor Moon. [laughing] R: Yeah, well, certainly couldn’t be her. Look at her. K: No, no, I mean she looks nothing like that other princess that she looked exactly like. [laughing] R: With the same hairstyle and everything. K [laughing]: Yes. R: The importance of grace in a person’s identity is apparently paramount. But yeah, the idea of a plan changing with new information I think is overlooked, because we like our stories in small parcels. K: Yes. R: But something like, for example a manga that’s gonna go on in theory indefinitely - K: [coughing]Naruto.[/coughing] Sorry. R: You’re going to have to introduce new information that’s going to change the course of the plot, and make the characters do something that maybe they wouldn’t have done before, or something they hadn’t considered, or just go off in a different direction because they need a new costume. K: And by the way this is why a lot of not just manga, but comic book series and even ongoing long-running television shows, have story arcs. R: Yeah. K: Manga especially you will see broken out into the such-and-such arc. R: Mhm. K: The this arc, they actually title them and they’re considered collections. R: Yeah. The introduction of new information can help pivot the story in a way that, like the characters might not have made that decision based on the way that they were starting out or proceeding at any given point in it. Having a plan is good, but maybe it doesn’t matter what it is. [laughing] K: But I think having a plan is a baseline that gives characters agency because they can make decisions to try to achieve the end results of that plan. R: Trying to stay on the track. K: Yeah. Again I’ll refer to the character of Kaz in Six of Crows. What’s so compelling about his character is he is a planner. He’s one of those guys who’s thinking of every possible contingency. He’s trying to stay two steps ahead of rivals and archnemesises - nemesii - R: Nemeses. K [overlapping]: Nemeses. I like nemesii. And that’s why we see him act so clearly with so much agency because then on top of that, we also learn that he is a person who’s very knowledgeable and very in control of things. You need a guy who can do this? He knows the guy who can do that who owes him a favor. He runs a casino, so all he’s doing is collecting information and favors and stuff to be traded in later. R: Okay. What about competence porn? K: Competency porn in general - if you’re not getting it from just saying, this is: somebody who’s always on top of things and always two steps ahead, and then it’s like all is lost, haha, no it’s not! See, I took the magic human ring from their pocket a long time ago, and now we can all - R [overlapping]: Going back to the heist kind of plot we described, like Danny Ocean - K: Yeah. R: - was an extremely competent person who was never out of control at any point. K: And even when we were left to think that he was out of control, that he was gonna derail this whole thing because of Tess, it turns out no, she was part of the plan the whole time. R: Yeah. K: So how do you have a character that has a lot of agency, can show forward thinking, without making them insufferable? R: We’ll start with casting George Clooney. K: Yes, yeah. All things are forgiven if it’s George Clooney. R: [laughing] K: Once you realize you can’t get George Clooney, what do you do? You have to make the character a person. Everyone works with somebody who, a situation will pop up and you know that no matter what you do, they are going to act irrationally because of something that happened prior. Everyone has a family member that won’t eat a certain thing, no matter how you prepare it, and the reasons that they won’t eat it are completely irrational. Everyone has the friend that just is constantly late, or changing plans last minute. These are X factors, these are things that make us human. And building a well-developed character who’s, even if they are hyper competent and they have planned everything out, still has to deal with base urges and moments of irrationality that are going to make them act in a way that maybe isn’t furthering the plan. But, they’re still showing agency when they do it. So for instance, you know the character standing at the thing and it’s like ‘okay I’m supposed to be following this guy who’s got the thing, but holy crap, there’s the guy who killed my brother! He’s walking that way, but I need to follow the guy who has the MacGuffin, because we need the MacGuffin, but this might be my only chance. He’s getting on a plane, I might never find this guy again.’ And decides to leave and go - it’s still agency, he’s still making a decision to his benefit, but at the cost of something else. R: Unless he figures out how to do both. So, as an editor, obviously you can’t name names - K: [laughing] R: - but what has been your experience with writers being told that they need to add agency to a story? K: Frequently confusion. R: Confusion because they don’t know what the heck that advice means, so they needed this episode. K: The thing is that if you have a completed book, a lot of times I think that you think your character is doing the best that your character can. I haven’t had to have that conversation a lot, but the times that I have weren’t the story as a whole, it was isolated to individual areas of the story. And a lot of times I framed it as ‘character So-and-so needs to make a decision. They need to do something. They need to stand up for themself. Or they have this thing that they know, they need to act on that, or they need to tell someone about it so that person can act on it. When I find areas where I’m like, I need this character to display a little more agency, is typically when - I’ll be honest with you, a lot of times it’s when the story stalled out a little bit. R: But is that a result of the character not behaving with agency? K: Well frequently when we get the character to act a little bit more on their behalf or make some decisions, it takes the storyline back up. R: Yeah. K: Weird, huh? [laughing] R: Funny how that happens. K: This all goes back to what we’re talking about here of going ‘why is it a big deal if my character’s passive?’ Because that can get boring. R: Yeah. And part of this is that we need the energy as a reader from that character’s desire to get from point A to point B, whether that’s an action or a target or an emotional state or whatever. That carries us along through the book and that makes the pages turn, versus the character just milling about with their hands in their pockets. K: I’ll leave us with this thought. I find a lot of times that characters who lack agency are typically not well-developed characters. And I’m not talking about in a certain scene, I’m not talking about the weird spot where the story’s stalling out a little bit, I’m talking about pervasive through the entirety of the story. A lack of agency is frequently coupled with a character that maybe isn’t that well-developed and whose arc, yes I’m tying in other vague advice to this, but whose character arc maybe isn’t that well fleshed out. Because if you have a well-developed character, you should know in your head what they would do in certain situations. You should know how they would act. If the character’s personality or development is ‘I will sit in this place, watch everything happen, and wait for it to be over,’ well, maybe that’s not a character you should be writing an entire book about. [laughing] All of this ties to everything else. All of this has to do with the other major things about books: themes, character arcs, plot, and place. Because characters who are well-developed shouldn’t need a lot of nudging to help themselves. R: Right, so if you have a character that knows what they want, sometimes this meandering comes out of the writer not quite sure how to get to the next thing, and might I suggest you just cut the scene and go to the next thing that is actually sometimes exactly what it needs. K: You brought up a very good point. I think a lot of times when, especially if it’s not pervasive if we’re dealing with an individual scene, it’s more a product of the writer struggling in that area. Either not knowing how to get us to the next place we need to be, be it physical or otherwise, or not having a good understanding of what’s gonna continue to happen in the story and either not wanting to write themselves into a corner, or not having a good way to continue. R: Yeah. And so then they get stuck in that character-introspective moment where they’re staring out the kitchen window, thinking about lots of stuff without acting in any way. K: It’s okay to have quote-unquote “downtime” for characters. It’s okay to give them some time where they need to think and regroup. I would say that is even displaying agency, that’s a planning portion. I’m not saying that every character at all times in your book must be active and must be doing things to further themselves to a goal. What I am saying, however, is that if they’re not doing anything through the course of the book, or if there are big chunks of it where we’re kinda going ‘whaaat’s going on here?’, that’s a larger problem. And one is easier to fix than the other. [laughing] Anyway, so, that’s agency, and that’s kinda what I have to say about it. That’s all I have to say about that. R: I doubt that very much. K: Well, that’s all I’ll say for now then. R: Yes, ‘cause we are over time. For me, if I get the feedback that my character’s lacking agency, I take a good look at what’s happening. And as Kaelyn said, if my character’s not a force that is causing things to happen in this story, or if there’s unnecessary downtime, or if there just isn’t a character arc, ‘cause sometimes I get this feedback for short stories. K: Mhm. R: And so that’s a good easy way to figure out like ‘oh, right, I don’t have a character arc. This character goes and observes a thing, and I’m trying to make commentary on the thing but I’m not actually having the character affect any change on the thing.’ Then it’s not really agency, it is the character observing the world around them and having an opinion about it, which isn’t the same as having a character arc. K: Yeah. R: If that happens in a novel, it’s more excruciating because it’s a lot more words that you’ve put time into. I rewrote SALVAGE, the first 60% that I rewrote, the first time I rewrote the first 60%, was because of an agency issue. K: Mhm. R: My characters start out the book; they’re stuck on the island, and all I did to change it was change the way they were planning their stuck-ness. K: [laughing] R: They’d been there the same amount of time, they were the same amount of frustrated, they were in the same amount of danger and having to make sure that nobody noticed them that shouldn’t notice them. But, in the second version, there’s a heist. Versus the first version where there’s a lot of watching the clock. And which one would you rather read? K: Exactly, yeah. There’s certainly an argument to make -- I think, a strong argument that I would say is borderline law -- that watching characters act with agency is far more engaging than watching them as passive observers. R: Yep. K: Unless it’s Twilight, and then you’re just gonna sell a billion copies of basically a weird choose-your-own-adventure, but not really. R: Yes. Well, not all our characters are as beautiful and attractive and wonderful and captivating as Bella, so we’re just gonna have to give them agency. K: She doesn’t know how beautiful - R [overlapping]: Right no of course not - K [overlapping]: No of course not, no - R: The plot is her finding out that people find her attractive. K: And she smells really good. [Both laughing] R: A fine vintage. Okay. K: Twilight is one of those things that like, I wonder if 150 years from now when we’re all dead, and they look back at this and go like ‘God, people in the earlier 2000s were weird.’ R: I mean, you could say that about most ages I think. K: That’s true. Yeah. R: There’s plenty of evidence throughout history of humans being just freakin’ weird. K: Context is everything, but. R: Yep. K: Yeah, so anyway, that’s agency. R: It is. Go get some, and give it to your characters. K: And always agency on your own behalf, you as a real life person always get to have. R: Yeah! I mean, especially when you’ve been locked inside for a year and a half. It’s about time to get some agency. K: Yup. R: So if you have questions or comments, or you still don’t know what agency is or what to do with it when someone tells you you need more, then you can @ us on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast, or you can go back to some of the other episodes we talked about; they are all at wmbcast.com. We would love if you would leave a rating and review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts. And also we are super grateful to all our patrons at Patreon.com/wmbcast who support the costs involved in making these episodes for you. So if they are helpful, and you have the cash and the agency - K: [laughing] R: Please head on over there. K: I see what you did there. R: Oh yeah, you like that? Thanks. K: I did, I did. So thanks everyone, we’ll see you in two weeks!

Puzzle experiment. (0:50) The 3 hiring models (4:00) Why it matters. (6:00) What you can do. (8:00) Quotable Moments “When you have a coach or mentor that is motivating you, they're trying to guide you to success. It will make you work harder.” – K “There are 3 hiring models. There's the star model, the professional model, and the commitment model.” – K “Most companies that succeed are going on that commitment model.” – K “When you go on the star model, you hire the brightest and the smartest, you expect them to achieve things that no other team can achieve.” – K “When you go on the professional model, you expect your team to know how to do things and to be able to deliver consistent results.” – K “When you go on the commitment model, you're going in with the perspective that you want to create a culture of belonging, connectedness, safety, and you do things to create that atmosphere.” – K “Go send that text, go call that person, go tell them that they're doing a good job, go tell them that you're proud of them. Do whatever it is to make them feel like they belong and create a culture of belonging and strong emotional bonds inside of your business.” – K Resources Check us out on Youtube Follow us on social media: LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram Subscribe to our newsletter, The Countdown Have questions? Email us! More from Martin theprofitproblem.com annealbc.com    martin@anealbc.com  LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from Khalil benali.com  khalil@benali.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from The Cashflow Contractor Ask Us A Question Sign Up For A Free Consultation thecashflowcontractor.com  info@thecashflowcontractor.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram

Why would someone want to change their reality? (4:40) What's the first step to changing your reality? (8:07) Reasons people resist change. (9:37) The Change Formula: Pain x Pleasure must be > Resistance to Change (13:56) Who is responsible for your reality? (15:05) 3 steps for changing your reality. (18:16) What makes up your reality? (23:04) Skills and beliefs are easy to change, but can you change your values? (39:44) Identity: The hardest thing to change. (47:07) Act as if... (51:26) The power of your environment. (55:01) 10 lies that people believe about changing their reality. (1:03:04) Quotable Moments “A lot of people are unhappy and it never really occurs to them to change their reality.” — M “Happiness is fleeting... Joy is a deeper state... For a lot of people, if they will accept responsibility, decide what they want, and act on it, even if they don't reach their vision or ultimate goal, they'll find joy.” — K  “There's no greater crime to yourself than to be just as ignorant a year from now as you are today on important topics.” — M “It's our brains that hold us back. It's our belief. We don't believe we can really do that.” — M “If you want positive thoughts, you've got to work on it every single day and it'll really define who you are.” — K “Take action. That's the best source of learning.” — K Resources Check us out on Youtube Follow us on social media: LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram Subscribe to our newsletter, The Countdown Have questions? Email us! Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel  Range by David Epstein E012 Company Culture and Why It Matters E008 Mo' Money, Mo' Problems with Sergio Garcia E055 Tyranny of the Urgent More from Martin theprofitproblem.com annealbc.com    martin@anealbc.com  LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from Khalil benali.com  khalil@benali.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from The Cashflow Contractor Ask Us A Question Sign Up For A Free Consultation thecashflowcontractor.com  info@thecashflowcontractor.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram

Maintaining a full-time job and being an entrepreneur. (2:00) Learning Spanish and becoming a bilingual contractor. (9:00) How OKC Pools started & their original pricing structure. (15:00) Encountering money issues. What am I doing wrong? (25:00) How to know your worth. (39:00) Variable Costs, margins and markups. (56:00) In hindsight– from a successful entrepreneur. (1:17:00) Quotable Moments “My hesitancy to raise prices was because I didn't want to lose customers. I thought, “they're all gonna drop me.” But then I raised prices and none of them dropped.” –C “I was making all this money but it wasn't showing up in my bank account.” –C “I was smart enough to know that I didn't know what I was doing.” –C “If you don't hire great people, it's not an asset, it's a liability.” –C “It's not that you want to be more valuable. It's that you don't know how valuable you are.” –K “There's a certain amount you need to do to stay in business. Then you must do more than that to pay debt. Then you must do more than that to justify being in business and making a profit.” –M Resources The Profit Problem by Martin Holland They Ask, You Answer by Marcus Sheridan OKC Pools website OKC Pools Facebook Cary Daniel's phone # 405-886-7180 Cary Daniel's email More from Martin theprofitproblem.com annealbc.com    martin@anealbc.com  LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from Khalil benali.com  khalil@benali.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from The Cashflow Contractor Ask Us A Question Sign Up For A Free Consultation thecashflowcontractor.com  info@thecashflowcontractor.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram

Episode Notes Normal People: College Relationships, Mental Health, and the “Perfect” Man V: Hi, this is Victoria Benefield.  L: And I’m Lami Zhang  V: Welcome to Subtitled, a podcast where two fake film students take a look at popular movies and TV shows. Seriously, Neither of us can get into any film classes, if anyone knows how please help us.  ["Wirklich Wichtig (CB 27) ," by Checkie Brown, CC BY-NC-ND 4.0] L: This episode contains strong language, and discussions of mental health and familial abuse. V: And the overwhelming hotness of a chain-wearing Irish man.  L: Today, we're talking about Normal People. An Irish show that follows Marianne and Connell through high school and college, as they weave in and out of each other's lives. The show focuses on relationships, mental health and masculinity. V: Today we have a special guest Kevin Park, a second year vocal performance major, who's a big Normal People fan. K: What up. I love this show a lot.  L: The show starts off with a pretty toxic relationship between Marianne and Connell.  V: They both have a lot of growing to do at the beginning, because it's high school and they're both dumb and Marianne had never been in a relationship before. And then they jumped into things pretty quickly. There was a lot of that, like first love, like it's super exciting, but then they also have no idea what they're doing at all. L: Right. It's kind of a weird mixture of a physical relationship and like a really twisted, buried underneath emotional connection that neither of them kind of know how to go forward with.  K: But they get to explore feelings and thoughts that they've never had to experience before. They got to express how much they feel like through intimacy and through, you know, sex, which I think like brings up this larger topic of like how intimacy is dealt with within relationships. And also just in film and TV in general.  L: I read this article that said, that there was an accumulative 44 minutes of sex portrayed in the entire show. And I was like, this is interesting. They make the sex and intimacy seem really realistic, especially like your first time and your first love. K: There's like one part that I remember. It was just like the first ever time I've ever seen, in like popular film or TV, consent just being shown, so normally, just a part of sex and a part of like having your first time. And I thought that was very powerful, cause that's something that has been a dialogue within our Northwestern community.  V: I think a lot of times in media, film and TV specifically, there's kind of this implied consent that’s shown where like the couple, just look each other in the eyes and they just both know that now's the moment, right? And then I feel like this show really breaks that standard. L: Right? Like one of the major themes of the show is communication within a relationship.  K: It's like a mirror to us in terms of like, how we think that we are being communicative. Like Marianne asked, do you love me or something? and Connell’s, like, obviously, but she's like, who is it obvious to? You know, there's this level of miscommunication between the two of them that really mirrors to, like, are we being communicative to our partners and our relationships, whether, romantic or, you know, like a friendship or whatever. L: The first time they broke up in college was pretty memorable, when Connell goes back to his hometown and he's afraid to ask Marianne to stay at her place. I was really confused as to why they broke up, cause clearly they're so in tune with each other physically and mentally, but their failure to communicate kind of just ruins their whole relationship. K: We all know when we watched the show, like, just say it just like talk to them, just talk to them. Right. And like, we talked to our friends about relationships, whatever, it is, like, just talk to them. But none of us really, really want to do it. And I think it shows the consequence, as well. There's a sense of like realism to that. L: Another key factor of the relationship is their differing socioeconomic statuses. In the first episode, we meet Marianne who lives in this giant house and Connell's mother works for her family. And throughout the show, there's always been this underlying differing, socioeconomic factor in their relationship. And I think that really shows up in their college years when they both got scholarships, but for Connell, that was kind of a matter of survival and being able to continue college while for Marianne, it's more for a pride thing. V: You don't recognize what a big impact it can have on your relationship with someone, but it just means you have drastically different experiences from them and that your backgrounds are very different and you grew up with sort of a very different mindset. There's just the sort of instability that Connell faces that Marianne can't understand. ["Line Spacing,” by Mild Wild, CC BY 4.0] L: I have a question for you two. When was the first time you realized that Cornell had anxiety? v: For me, it was this scene where I think he was in high school still. And he runs into the bathroom, and you can tell he's having a panic attack. K: I knew that he had troubles within himself, but I didn't really know what to classify it as. The first time that I really understood, he actually went to therapy.  L:  Right. And it was his roommate who , encouraged him to go get help at college. And I think that was just a really frank portrayal of mental health in college.I haven't really seen that portrayed in any other TV show in high school or college that, Oh, you should go see a counselor.  v: Another aspect of it that they do really well in terms of mental health is showing how it is a constant and consistent struggle. It doesn't go away just when his relationship with Marianne is going well, or when he gets a scholarship, it's something that he's going to deal with. and they don't glorify it at all which is so important, especially after getting shows like, um--  L: 13 Reasons Why? V: 13 Reasons Why, yes. L: Oh, I think we can't blame Connell for having a lack of communication with Marianne, because his anxiety and his other mental health issues really play a big part into that. He was so anxious to ask her to stay at her house, which is such an insignificant thing to most other people. For Connell, like his anxiety amps it up so much that he feels like he's going to get rejected if he asks her to do such a simple thing for him. K: Also in Marianne's perspective, also like scary for her to reach out. —this whole like, series, Marianne struggles with worth, does she feel worthy enough to like, be in a relationship with Connell? L: there's a phrase she repeats throughout the whole series. "I have an unlovable quality about me," so she feels like she cannot engage in any sort of emotional relationship besides from the one she has with Connell and even in the one she has with Connell, she's always saying, I'll do it. If you want me to do it.  V: Yeah. I think her relationship with her family. I don't think I realized the extent of the abuse within the household in the first few episodes. At the end, it really crystallizes and I think they did a really good job showing how that abuse makes its way into your life in ways that you don't really understand.  ["Line Spacing,” by Mild Wild, CC BY 4.0]  L: So, Connell is a pretty complex character and that's kind of unprecedented for a male character and that he shows both this type of physical masculinity and this emotional vulnerability. K: It's something that a lot of other shows that I've watched tried, I think it's very hard to write because it's not very common either. Just in normal life, you know? I've been hearing a lot from my female friends who have watched the show: Wow, Connell was perfect. Connell’s perfect, which,  I understand. But it’s also like, is this an ideal man in the 21st century or is this just like how men feel, actually feel, like in real life? V: that's so interesting. I do think there has been a recent trend where vulnerability among men is definitely celebrated. And we see that in Connell, like he cries so many times throughout the show, Marianne rarely cries. I feel like we might get a couple moments where she cries, but you see Connell cry so much more often. And I feel like that's kind of a big thing.  K: Connell comes to a point where he understands his flaws and he’s very introspective about that. And I think that's just something that we perceive men to not talk about. But personally like living in a household now with like three other guys, it's been really eye opening in terms of having like male friends who actually like to open up and we talk about our past traumas —I realized that like, it might be feasible. It is feasible? I don’t know. It's just an ongoing conversation.  L: What you mentioned about Connell being this ideal male character, are we romanticizing this idea of mental health in men? Do men have to have a mental health problem to be emotional and communicative? V: So interesting. I think the mental health aspect explains the crying and the emotionality of him and you can like justify it. And it makes sense. So outside of the context of his depression and his anxiety, would we be like, Ooh, he's crying so much. It's weird. Why is he crying? Would we still feel the same way about him? K: I think it also might be like we perhaps romanticize people who have mental illness and we want to be there to listen to them or have this savior complex. L:  As simple as it may be, that Marianne would be Connell's savior and Connell will be Marianne savior. Connell goes to therapy to better his mental health. It's not something that Marianne alone can fix. Similar thing for Marianne's self-worth issue. She's the only one who can kind of realize that she's worth more than she thinks. Her friends and Connell can be there to support her, but ultimately it's her who has to realize that for herself. V: Yeah. I think that's a great point. I think they grow the most as people when they're not in a romantic relationship, when they're just friends. Even though they're madly in love with each other, they need that space, and they need to be physically distant from each other in order to grow as people.  L: Right. I think the show really just brings to life that cliche of maybe you're the right person for each other, but it's not the right timing.  V: Yeah. That's true. Actually, I did think like the last scene that they were like, Oh, I love you. I'm never going to love anyone else as much as I love you. I was like, okay. Yeah, sure. I mean, they've had this connection, but really it's been over what, like six, seven years of their life. They have a lot longer to go. You know, I wonder if he goes to New York, meets someone, 15 years later, Marianne is just like a footnote, she’s just like a number that he can call sometimes. You know, I wonder if their relationship really is that meaningful in the grand scheme of their lives. K:  I think that there is some sort of connection that we see. They also acknowledge how different it is. And I guess we'll never know, but in terms of just like our own personal relationships, if we think back to people that really impacted us, I don't think I'll ever forget them.  V: I think there are some people who are really impactful in your life. I have this — I’m sure Lami has heard this rant before —about my theory about love. L: Oh my god.  V: Because like they have this connection that they call love, but I think love is an action. And so I do think that they're very much infatuated with each other and that that infatuation has led to this action of loving each other. But I don’t think they will have that feeling of infatuation for that long, and I think that they will grow distant. I don't think that they will be in love for the rest of their lives. That's my opinion on it. Controversial, maybe? L: I actually completely agree with you because I think TV shows in popular culture emphasizes and exaggerates ‘the right person for each other’ trope. And how like if you're with the right person it's supposed to all be easy, like, it's not. And I think Normal People kind of shows that, in that Oh, if they don't communicate, they won't have a relationship together. But I agree with you, people can have this type of connection with a bunch of other people. And it's just about how much effort you put in.  K: I think they are soulmates, but my definition of soulmate, as, in terms of just like, it could be anyone, it could be a friend, it could be a lot of people. But it's just this deep connection with someone that you walk your life with. And it doesn't have to be a relationship where you're holding hands forever, but it's just a person that you're continuously walking your life with.  V: I always say that I believe that anyone can fall in love with anyone. And by that, I mean like, is there something about them that like their personalities and their souls that makes them intricately connected and makes them soulmates? Or is it just because they grew up together?  L: That's interesting. I think if you go through certain situations and experiences in your life with someone, it kind of really sticks with you, whether they be like romantic partners or friends. I think we can talk about it in the context of Northwestern. Right.  K: I personally think a lot of what they said and did seemed very real. Like first time having sex,, I could relate to that, you know, or like, staying up with them on Skype, and just like watching the other person fall asleep, or them breaking up, but still being friends and having that connection. I feel like a lot of those things are just personally relatable to like my life. I feel like every person no matter, like what their personality is like, can find something in the show that they deeply resonate with.  L: For me, it was more about having anxiety and being in a relationship. I think I struggle with a lot of the same issues that Connell has with Marianne in terms of communication,  I just think they did such a good job, how realistic their portrayals of panic attacks and depression and anxiety is, I don't know. That's just like, kind of blows my mind. And I think that also brings up the idea that you can be a nice person, but you can still be toxic to other people. Every person in my opinion has to actively work towards not being toxic in any sort of relationship.  K: Actively being good? Yes. L:  Let’s go. V: We have to talk about the chain, right?  L: Oh my God. K: Guys. I got a chain. L: Oh my God. Kevin, you're basically a Connell now, emotional and has a chain. Damn! K: After I bought it, I was like, did I buy this, like subconsciously in my head because I perceive Connell as a perfect man? And I thought, no, that can't be, but looking back, I most definitely did. Yeah. V: Everyone needs to wear a chain. I can't reiterate this enough. Everyone needs to be wearing a chain constantly. Just purchase one, start wearing it.  L: Is that a chain Victoria? Oh my God. V: I am wearing a chain, I just realized it! L: I'm in the same room with two Connells!  V: Thank you for listening. This has been Subtitled. I’m Victoria Benefield L: And I'm Lami Zhang. K: And I was special guest, Kevin Park.  V: Tune in next time for more fake film analysis. Thanks for listening!  ["Funky Garden," by Ketsa, CC BY-NC-ND 4.0] This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and tell us your favorite novel covers! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 44: Theme and Character Arcs transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00] R: Welcome back to We Make Books, a podcast about publishing—and writing. And sometimes going backward and revising. Whoops. I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.   K: And I’m acquisitions editor, I, Kaelyn Considine, at Parvus Press.   R: How dare you.   [Both laugh]   K: It’s the heat. It’s the heat and then quarantine.   R: The heat is definitely getting to us. We have to turn off the AC to record these, folks, so pity us.   K: Hi, everyone! No, today we actually have, I think, an interesting episode. We are going based off a Twitter question we got from one of our listeners, Ashley Graham, about themes and character arcs and how to manage them and make them good in your story.   R: And by good, we mean strong or tight or—   K: Pervasive, efficient—   R: Pervasive. [giggles]   K: What are some other words we use to describe them here? Lots of very positive adjectives, to be sure.   R: Mhm, yeah.   K: You want your character arcs tight and your themes pervasive.   R: Yup.  K: It’s kind of what we’re left with here. Anyway, we had a lot of fun talking about this because it’s something that I really enjoy working with authors on.   R: Yeah, when Kaelyn gets a novel manuscripts, this is what she dives in and gets to.   K: It is, yeah. This is at the very developmental level and I think anybody who’s a writer that’s listening to this and has submitted and gotten rejections has probably, at some point, gotten a note to “work on their themes or character arcs.”   R: Mhm.   K: Which is just so helpful and specific.   R: That’s why they call them form rejections.   K: Yes. So, we spent a lot of time in this talking about, first of all, what are these themes and character arcs? And how do you work on them? A lot of fun examples in movies and shows and, you know, like I said this is one of my favorite things about editing, is working on these parts of the book.   R: See, Kaelyn thought that she could ask me to restrain her, but the fact is I also love these, so we did go on a little bit. But I think we’ve had longer episodes. We’re fine.   K: Definitely, yeah. We were like kids in a candy shop for this, to be sure.   R: That’s true.   K: Anyway, so take a listen. We hope this is helpful, if this is something you’ve been struggling with in your writing process, and we’ll see you on the other side of the music.   [intro music plays]   K: I don’t know what I could’ve hit. That’s upsetting. Anyway! So, if my elbow hit something is that a character arc or is that a theme?   R: I think that’s a theme. Or it might be a story element…   K: It could be a plotline. Is the elbow a character?   R: Is the elbow haunted?   K: I mean, I assume so. It’s mine, yes. Anyway, today we’re talking about—one of our listeners, Ashley Graham, sent us a question about, I don’t know. Do we wanna read the question?   R: I’m gonna summarize it. Basically, Ashley was working on a short fiction piece and was suggested to, by an editor, that the theme and character arc could use some clarification. So, what the heck does that mean? That’s feedback that people will see.   K: That’s very common feedback, actually. Probably, I think, a lot of people listening to this who have submitted something either to an agent or an editor, probably got feedback that may have specifically said character arc and theme.   R: Yeah. And I think this one might have been for a publication, so short fiction market. And you’re gonna get that kind of stuff a lot because their second-tier response is going to be, “Your story almost made it, you could’ve tightened this up,” you know?   K: Yeah, and also, especially with short fiction, you’re gonna see that more because you have to do a lot in a short amount of time.   R: Yeah.   K: Now that is not, by any stretch of the imagination, to indicate that you won’t see this with long-form fiction because, believe me, you will. I’ve said it multiple times myself—   R: It might be easier to go astray with a long novel.   K: It’s very true. So, why is it these two things, a lot, that you hear? Because they’re a little, especially in the case of themes, they’re a little nebulous and not as easy to pin down. A plot is, I think, a lot of times easier because it’s the story. When you sit down to write an outline, what you’re outlining is usually the plot.    R: It’s concrete, it’s easy to point at and go, “That is part of the plot. That is a thing that happens and it happens in an order and if that order goes awry then it’s not a plot anymore.”   K: That’s exactly what I was gonna say, was that when you’re outlining something and it’s the plot, it’s an order of actions happening in sequence, or maybe out of sequence, depending on how you’re writing, but in how they’re going to be presented in the final book or short story, or what have you.   So, before we get started, let’s kinda define some things here. So a plot, obviously, we know what a plot is. That is not a character arc, it is not a theme. A plot is the elements of a story that take place and happen to the characters. That is a very broad definition, obviously, but plots are sequences on actions and things that happen.   R: Yeah, I’ve even heard it defined as a sequence of actions, reactions, and complicating factors.   K: Yes, that’s a really good way to describe it. Themes and character arcs, and it’s funny because character arcs and plots get confused together and then themes and morals get confused together. A theme is not a moral, a moral is, we’re talking strictly in terms of terms in literature. A moral is a lesson that is learned. A moral is the kid sticks his hand in the cookie jar when he’s not supposed to, it gets stuck, he breaks the cookie jar and has cuts on his hand and his mom finds out he was doing all of this anyway.    So what has he learned? He has learned to listen to his mother because maybe it’s not just that she doesn’t want him to eat cookies when he shouldn’t, maybe it’s that he could get hurt. That is a moral. That is actions and the plot leading up to a character changing themselves because they learned something. That is not a theme.So, now that we have—   R: It’s a character arc though.   K: It certainly could be.   R: Yeah.   K: And so that’s why I’m saying, plots and character arcs and themes and morals can get confused. So now that we’ve established what we’re not talking about, let’s talk about what we are talking about.   And let’s start with themes because that one is a little more nebulous, I think. A theme in a story is, at its basis level, an underlying message. It’s a big idea.   R: Mhm.   K: It is conceptual. It’s things that do not physically, tangibly exist in the world. If you are saying, “Yes, the theme is this,” and a lot of times, if it’s something you can actually touch, that’s probably not actually a theme.   R: So my theme is not coffee?   K: Your theme might be coffee, Rekka.   R: I was gonna say! You’re speaking in universals here, but I just don’t feel like I can relate to what you’re saying.   K: Your—your theme might be coffee. [laughs] Now, somebody might—you might come in and say, “What about the ocean? What if the theme of this story is the ocean?” Well, my answer to that is that the theme of the story is probably not the ocean.   The theme of the story might be travel or man versus nature or the horror of the unknown, and the ocean just happens to embody that.   R: Yup.   K: Again, these are Big Ideas. These are things that you cannot touch, feel, or hold. So things like love, death, good versus evil, a lot of coming of age stories. Stories of rebellion and overthrowing corrupt systems of government. Survival. These are themes. And those are big themes. You can have smaller ones like… family. Finding things that are lost.   R: Appreciating what you had all along, kind of thing,   K: Exactly, yes. Realizing that home was really where you wanted to be this whole time.   R: Yeah. Adventure was the friends you made along the way.      K: Exactly, yes. The other thing that I always tell people when trying to identify themes in their story and bring them forward a little more, is what do you want the reader to walk away thinking, feeling, or knowing? If the theme of your story is: the adventure was the friends you made along the way, then you want the reader to go, “You know what? I really need to go spend some more time with my friends and do something fun with them.”   R: Mhm.   [09:55]   K: Or “ I need to go out and make some new friends,” or “I’m gonna go have an adventure and see if I make any new friends.”   R: Yeah.   K: Your—if, you know, the theme is something like death and loss, maybe you want the reader to leave feeling really sad and depressed and hopeless, staring into the void of existence.   R: You monster.   K: Hey, I mean we’ve all read a book like that.   R, laughing: Yes. In high school. They were required reading.    K: Ohh, oh yeah.   R: So, another way to phrase this or to think about it is to—say, your example of the ocean and say, “Okay, but that’s still a noun.” If you were to remove the noun, what’s left? What’s underneath that? If the setting and the characters are the carpet and you pull up the carpet, what’s underneath it? What is the most fundamental, base human relatable thing that you’re communicating with this story?   K: And that’s what makes themes so difficult to manage and to bring forward in stories, is that they are intangible. You can’t—There’s a frequently said thing that editors use which is, “Show me, don’t tell me.” R: Right.   K: And that is—   R: We should have an episode on that.   K, laughs: Yeah. But that is themes. You can’t put a sentence in there saying, “And the theme is: love.” No, you need—it’s something that has to be woven through your story for the reader to pick up on their own. You shouldn’t have to tell the reader what the theme of this story is.    So, now, before we go too far down that line, let’s kinda talk about character arcs and what is a character arc? They’re definitely a little more tangible, if you will, than themes. You can sit down—and I encourage people to sit down and write out a character arc. Rekka, you’ve done this a few times.   R: A few...yes. Just a couple.    K: Just a few. But a character arc is partially, mostly, a lot of times, an inner journey. It’s a transforma—   R: It’s a transformation. Ah, there we go.   K: It’s a transformation of the character over the course of the story. We’re seeing them start out a certain way, the plot affects them, and they have to change and adapt accordingly. And some definitions of this will say it must be a permanent change. I don’t buy into that because I don’t think that everything needs to be a fundamental personality shift.   R: Well, sometimes you just really wanna write a really long series and that character’s gonna have to learn that lesson more than once.   K: Yeah… Hey, nobody said these characters have to be smart!   R: Yeah, they don’t have to grow ever upward.   K: No, character arc is something. Theme has been what it is for a long time. Character arc is something that, I think, the standards and definitions of it have shifted a little bit over time. In fiction, especially, if you go back to when literature was first being really defined and written about and studied, you’ll find a lot of stuff that says, “Well, a character arc must have these elements: the character must start here; they must encounter or create a problem for themselves; they must come up with a way to overcome that problem, or get the thing that they need; they must suffer a setback; they must recover from the setback; they must resolve the storyline.”   R: And usually in a Three Act, there’s a second setback that’s extra bad.   K: Yeah, yes. I don’t agree with this. I think that there’s no such thing as a formulaic character arc.   R: Right. And, for one, that’s a very Western oriented, Western-centric character arc. You’re going to travel outside Western stories, you’re going to see different character arcs.   K: I would make the argument that character arcs that are a very Western thing that can be applied to a lot of stories because the nature of stories has character arcs, but—   R: Well, I would argue that the nature of Western civilization is colonialism and that sure is going in and applying new rules to other people’s stuff, so. [laughs]   K: Absolutely.    R: So burn down character arcs, got it.   K: Yeah. No, no. And, look, what makes stories interesting is seeing the people in them grow and change. The degree to which that happens varies wildly across all genres and all cultures and how—I’ve had literature professors that said, “If your character is not X amount different by the end of the story, then that’s not a successful character arc,” and I think that’s bullshit.   Because character arcs, which are obviously very tied to character development, do not necessarily need to be a fundamental shift in personality.   R: So, why don’t we start talking a little bit examples. We named one off the air, before we started recording, which was basically any character that Harrison Ford plays.   K, laughing: Yeah!   R: Do any of those characters fundamentally change across the time spent on screen?   K: Well, let’s scale it down a bit to characters Harrison Ford plays that appear in multiple movies. Franchise Harrison Ford characters.    R: Okay, so we’re talking Indiana Jones, Han Solo, and then Jack Ryan.    K: Okay, well I don’t know anything about Jack Ryan, so I’m not gonna be able to help there.   [15:57]      R: Basically, he’s—once again, we’re talking about uber-competent male action heroes, basically.   K: I am going to focus primarily on Indiana Jones and Han Solo because that’s an interesting dichotomy. One of them has a character arc, the other absolutely does not. Spoiler alert: Indiana Jones does not really have much of a character arc.   R: Um, as we said, his character arc is… he needs a thing, he has a competitor for the thing, the competitor gives him a setback, he overcomes, approaches again, has a bigger setback, and then he gets the thing. It’s not a personal growth, it is his striding toward a goal.   K: Yes, but that is his plot.   R: That is also the movie plot, but I’m just saying—is it a flattening of the character arc with the plot, when the character doesn’t change very much?   K: It is because Indiana Jones does not change over the course of the story. He ends and begins every movie with, It Belongs in A Museum.    [both laugh]   R: Fortune over ___, kid.   K: Yeah, that’s Indiana Jones. It’s It Belongs in A Museum or I Don’t Want the Nazis to Have This. That is everything motivating Indiana Jones throughout all of his movies. Han Solo, on the other hand, does have a character arc. Han Solo starts out as a smuggler and a guy who, according to his prequel, was running drugs.    R: Mhm.   K: And he eventually becomes somebody who, instead of just living this sort of private-smuggler lifestyle—   R: Out for himself.   K: Yeah! Out for himself. Has friends and family that he grows to care about. And maybe he’s not as gung-ho Freedom Fighter as they are, but he certainly takes their values and their goals into account and wants to help them and be successful in that. Then he walks into a lightsaber—but we’ll, you know… that’s… [laughs] But! It is a different, it’s another downswing on the character arc is that we see that Han Solo, at the end of the day, is still Han Solo.   R: Mhm.   K: Because what happens? He goes back to smuggling pirate loner lifestyle with Chewbacca. We pick up with him again and, yeah, he’s different but of course he is, he’s older. So there, again, successful character arc! But what he’s showing us is that, at the end of the day, this is what he does and this is what he knows and this is what he’s good at.   R: Well, but, the question is, is he good at it or is he Chewbacca’s sidekick.   K, laughing: How good he is is a different query.   R: Okay, so—   K: Actually, real quick sidebar, if you think about it, everything we’ve seen of Han Solo, he’s not actually a very good smuggler.   R: No, he’s terrible! So the question is, does your character start from a default? And what we’re saying here is Han Solo, his default is smuggler, loner, trying to make the next paycheck and keep himself out of trouble.   K: Scruffy-faced nerf-herder.   R: Whenever he is thrown into the mix with people who are potential friends, they mess up his default and pull him away from that. But send an obstacle into his path—like a son—and he reverts back to his default when he doesn’t know how to cope.   K: Yeah, exactly. So, Han Solo is actually, and I think, primarily accidentally, a very successful and good example of a character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: Indiana Jones: It Belongs in A Museum or Stop The Nazis.   R: I think he’s intentionally left out of the character arc.   K: Yeah, I mean—but this is the thing, that’s not what those stories are about.   R: Right. That’s to the point of this question is, when you are told to tighten up a character arc or a theme, you do need to know what kind of story you’re telling before you decide how deep into character arcs and themes you need to dive. I mean, you might get this feedback from one person, and they might be off the mark for what you were trying to do with your story.   K: Mhm.   R: Which can also tell you, maybe you need to extract a little of that character arc and not make it feel like it’s so much about developing a character, if you are just telling a whip-cracking, gun-toting archaeologist tale. Don’t do that. Archaeologists don’t appreciate it.   K, laughing: Yeah, that’s uh—   R: Another episode.   K: In case anyone was confused at home, that’s not what archaeology’s actually like, sadly. Anyway, now that we’ve talked about what character arcs and themes are, why are these two things that people are frequently told to tighten up? And frequently told to tighten them together?   We’ve already said that character arcs are closer to plots, themes are closer to morals, but they’re not the same thing. So how do character arcs and themes overlap? Themes motivate and drive characters. This feeds both the plot and the character arc. The plot, obviously, because based on the theme, and therefore the character’s motivation, the character will be making that will affect both the plot and their character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: That’s where things start to get a little tricky. Those two are very closely intertwined. Because obviously the plot, in a lot of cases, is dependent upon what the character is doing. Their choices and decisions dictate what happens next in the story.   So then, drill down for that, what is influencing their decision-making, their motivation? And where is the motivation coming from? And that’s where you start to get to the themes of the story. So, if one of the themes of your story is survival and, let’s think of—   R: Alien.   K: Okay, that’s a more fun example. I was gonna say The Hatchet, remember that book we all had to read in middle school?   R: Yeah, we’re not doing that, we’re doing Alien.   K: Okay, we’re doing Alien.   R: Mostly because there was a point you made earlier about character and we used Harrison Ford’s various characters as the example, but I love the example of, specifically in terms of survival, and specifically in terms of the character of Ripley, Ripley doesn’t really change throughout the movie. What she does is survive because she has the skillset, which is the ability to think things through logically in the first place, to say, “Okay, we need to not be doing this.”   Basically the theme of Alien, correct me if I’m wrong, is We Should Have Listened to Ripley?   K: I mean, yeah. Probably. But beyond just the theme of—Granted, this goes into further expansions in the Alien franchise, but—   R: Well, let’s stick with Alien for one. The other movies in the franchise are different genres, basically. So sticking with the space truckers’ monster-horror survival.   K: Alien is a horror movie in space. That’s all it is. It was groundbreaking, genre-defining, but it is a horror movie in space. So, the themes of the movie, as Rekka said: survival. There’s also, I would say, a theme of frustration.    R: Mhm. The capitalist bureaucracy.   K: Well, and that’s what I was getting into.   R: Okay.   K: So then we’re introducing a conflict element there that is beyond simply: there’s a thing laying eggs in people’s chests.   R: That thing laying eggs in people’s chest wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for the company.   K: Yes, exactly. So then, if you want to take all of that and say, “Okay, so how does that affect Ripley’s character arc?” Ripley is changed at the end of the story, not necessarily physically or personality-wise, but emotionally she is very affected. And she is going to then—have you ever heard about how Alien was supposed to end? One of the alternative endings they shot?   The alien gets Ripley, essentially, and then when whoever is calling in over the ship, the alien gets the intercom and answers back in her voice, requesting for orbits to come back to Earth.   R: Gotcha.   K: So, it was a very bleak ending, obviously.   R: But a lot of monster movies do this. They leave off with you not feeling safe.   K: Yes, and so that is another theme. What do you wanna leave your readers with? And, in this case, the movie pivoted a little bit and said, “Well, we wanna give the audience a sense of closure,” and that all of this, this theme of survival, she did survive. So rather than going with the theme of feeling unsafe, which was another theme running through that entire movie, paranoia, uncertainty—   R: Claustrophobia.   K: Claustrophobia. Anybody could become your enemy at any moment.   R: Body horror. Yup.    K: Yeah. So instead of leaving off with that theme, they decided to be a little kinder and pivot a little bit to say, “Hey, determination, intelligence, stick-to-itiveness, and survival will make you victorious.” Which is another set of themes. So then, back to, how does this tie into the character arc is: Ripley is a changed person at the end of this.   Boy, has she seen some shit. And now she knows that this corporation is up to no good. She is no longer just in it for the money. They say this is a long, awful journey, but it’s very good money. It’s totally worth it.   R: Mhm.   K: Maybe it’s not worth it anymore. There’s absolutely some anti-capitalist undertones in there.   R: Mhm.   K: Ripley comes out of this, even though personality-wise she hasn’t changed—the movie takes place over a relatively short period of time. But Ripley’s definitely got some different thoughts and motivations now, at the end of this. So, even though she hasn’t undergone a radical, inner transformation, she certainly thinks different things now than she did before.   R: Yeah, for sure.   K: So, yeah. That’s a great example of some really cool themes and how they affect—and it’s interesting because you could take it a step further and say how they affect the character arc, rather than the plot.   R: Right.    K: Because in this case, a lot of Ripley’s decisions are reactionary. Things are happening and she’s trying to adapt and recalibrate very, I’m only thinking of two instances in the whole—really, one and a half off the top of my head, in which she goes on the offensive, so to speak.   R: Right. Well that’s also sort of a plot thing is that your character is reacting to things up until a certain point, and then it’s at the time when they decide to say, “No, I will take care of this myself,” that’s when you’re entering that last act.   K: Yes! But, then, by the time we get to the, “I’ll take care of this myself,” for the plot and the character arc, we all go back to the themes of Ripley kind of coming to a new understanding of how stuff is actually happening around her, rather than letting it happen to her.   R: Yeah.   K: Yeah. Anyway, I think that’s a good example.   R: Cool. So, now that we’ve talked about what they are, given you some examples, figured out how to un-intertwine the character arc and theme. How do you tighten them up? And since the example given was a short story for publication, let’s assume we’re doing this in under 7,000 words. How do you tighten up character arc and theme and you’ve also, presumably, got a plot in there, in a very efficient way?   K: All of these kind of work together. I think that anything you’re going to do to a short story, you can apply to longer form fiction and vice versa. So me, personally, with—and Rekka has been on the receiving end of this a couple times—when working with authors, let’s start with themes. I mentioned before, one of the first things I ask the author is: What do you want the audience to know, think, or feel that they didn’t at the beginning of the book?   And when I say know, I don’t mean you’re—   R: Teaching them.   K: Yeah, you’re not putting a graph-chart in there and saying, “And then the price of gold went up to—” I’m not talking about facts, I’m talking about what you want them to know about these nebulous concepts in the way you want them to know it? So, identifying those things really will help you figure out where your themes are.    The other thing I always say, and this is where it starts to tie into the character arc, is look at the character arcs and the plot and the motivation. What are the characters doing and why are they doing it? What is driving them to do this? Because that’s where you’re gonna find a lot of your themes. And then, if theme is very important to you, if you really want to hammer a message home, making sure that your characters act and are motivated by that theme, consistently—and this isn’t to say it can’t evolve, it absolutely can. But making sure that they are correctly motivated, based on what the theme is, is a really good way to help tighten that up.   Then, that helps to feed into their character arc. Because you have a character, then, acting, reacting, and making decisions based on what is important to them and how the story is building.   [30:09]   R: And I think, at this point, if you’re feeling like, “I can’t make this character make this decision,” then that tells you that you are not succeeding at either theme or character arc.   K: Yes… and—   R: Or not in a way that supports what you set out to do with the plot.   K: Yes, and listen. I want to be clear about something that every story does not need to be a Magnum Opus of subtle themes and ideas woven through this— it’s going to be studied in college 101 classes for decades to come. But you do need a theme for your story. You need there to be something that is important in all of this. Otherwise it is a bland series of actions happening one after the other.   R: And if you don’t feel that it is a bland series, or your beta readers don’t feel that it is a bland series of actions, one after another, that means there’s a theme in there. So if you’re having trouble identifying it, that doesn’t mean immediately that you don’t have one.   I will use an example of Mike Underwood, when I was working on Annihilation Aria with him. So we had a few calls, I read the manuscript multiple times, and Mike had actually said the themes of the story are very important to him. So I went through the manuscript, and I do this with most books that I edit, and I kind of write out a plot outline based on what I’m reading, what I see happening in the book. Part of this is, one, that it’s just easier for me to keep track of things, but then also because if I show it to the author and say, “Okay, this is how I’m reading this,” and they’re going, “No, no! That’s not it at all,” then it’s like, okay, now we need to have a conversation.   But one of the things that I like to do through that is mark off, in my notes of this outline, where I’m identifying and seeing certain themes. And then we have a conversation about that. And if we’re seeing a real imbalance of them, or I’m only seeing them come through in certain parts of the story, or if I’m having a real hard time nailing them down and saying, “I feel like I’ve got ten themes in this story. Which one’s the most important to you?”    And I think that’s a really good exercise is, you know, most authors out there, I’m guessing if you’re pretty far into your Work-In-Progress at this point, you probably already have an outline. So go through it and try to pick out sections where you think certain themes are coming through. And I actually color-code them and then I can look through and see, “Oh, there’s a lot of red and not so much blue.”   R: Mhm. If you’re a pantser and you write without an outline, this is something you do, probably in your revision process. Write down a summary of each scene and that becomes an outline. Just because you’re doing it after the fact doesn’t make it less of an outline. And then do the same practice with that.   K: Exactly. It’s not easy to do. There’s a reason that anybody who’s taking any sort of an English literature class will say there’s a reason you spend a lot of time working on and learning about themes is because they’re intangible. They’re nebulous. There isn’t a point at which, in the story, the character breaks the fourth wall and says, “Hey, just so you know, we’re introducing a new theme here! It’s compassion!”   R: But at the same time, you study examples in order to identify the universalities and that’s what themes are.   K: Yes.   R: So, if you learn how to work your theme around compassion, you can write twenty novels that are completely different that are all about compassion, and you’d get really good at it. You know?   K: Yeah, absolutely.   R: That’s why romance writers are really good at what they’re doing. By choosing their genre, they know what the theme is and they stick to it and, by the end, capital R, Romance writers are really, really efficient at getting stories written because they’ve already done this work. And every time you do this with a theme, it answers questions about the plot.   K: Yeah.   R: What needs to happen here? I’m lost. Well, okay, what’s your theme? What needs to happen here? Oh, well this!   Yeah, you answered your own question.   K: So, just to talk a little—with character arc, tightening that up and defining it a little better. Again, outlines here help. And it doesn’t need to be anything too detailed. It just needs to be this, then this, then this, then this and then throw some lines in there explaining what led to or motivated the character to get to that point. Character arcs, it’s funny because in some ways they are far more concrete than themes. You can actually sit down and outline a character arc, but I think it is harder sometimes to say, “Is this a character arc?”   The most important thing in the character arc is the character has to be different at the end than when they started. It can be something like RIpley in Alien where she hasn’t undergone a major personality shift, but she has changed the way she thinks and will act differently now because of that.    As opposed to someone like Luke Skywalker, who has the farmboy to legendary hero character arc, but Luke goes on this whole journey and at the end of it, he is a very, very, very different person than when he started because of all of the things that happened to him. All of the experiences, the adversity, the finding out his father’s Darth Vader. I mean, that alone—   R: Oh, I know. Plus he literally can’t go back to the life he had before.   K: Yeah, exactly. And that’s actually a very good marker of a successful character arc. Can they go back to how things were before? And if the answer is yes, your character has probably not had enough of a character arc for it to be considered a character arc.   R: Or it’s Indiana Jones.   K: Or it’s Indiana Jones. Because Indiana Jones always just goes back to how things were before. Indiana Jones has proof that God exists—   R: And goes back to university and just keeps teaching the Neolithic Era.   K: And just kept living his life! [laughs] Indiana Jones has multiple instances of literal proof that not only does the Judeo-Christian God exist, but also Hindu deities and various other things.   R: Mhm.   K: Aliens! All of this stuff and just continues on like it’s nothing. I don’t know what that says about him. If we should be impressed or horrified.   R: I think we’re supposed to be impressed. The idea being that the first time we see it happen is not the first time it happens for him.   K: I wanna be very clear about something: in the timeline of Indiana Jones because we all know—   R: Are we counting the River Phoenix and Young Indiana Jones?   K: Oh, no, but we’re counting the beginning of Last Crusade, to be sure.   R: Okay, alright.   K: Okay, so we’ve got Last Crusade, we’ve got that awesome train scene, whatever. Chronologically, then, Temple of Doom actually happens first.   R: Right, so we have the intro to Last Crusade, we have Temple of Doom—   K: And Temple of Doom, we establish that Hindu deities are clearly a real thing and a serious force to be reckoned with. Even if you wanna say, “Well, maybe it wasn’t the Hindu deities, it was magic,” okay fine, it was still bad, it was still, you know, unhappy.   R: Yeah.   K: Alright, so then we go to Raiders of the Lost Ark, at the end of that we have established that the Judeo-Christian God is a real thing that exists and does not like Nazis and you should not open the box.   R: Yep.   K: Then, we go to The Last Crusade, and in case anybody was a little like, “Meh, I’m not sure, that could’ve been who-knows-what, just because they said it was the Ark of the Covenant doesn’t mean that’s what it really was,” well now we’ve got the Holy Grail. The literal, actual Holy Grail that has kept a Crusades-era knight alive and then, if we’re still gonna take this a step further, heals his dying father’s mortal wounds.   R: Yup.   K: So, we have now established that multiple deities actually, really exist and this guy just freaking goes back to teaching college like this hasn’t rocked his entire world.   R: Teachers have a limited amount of vacation time.   [K laughs]   R: What is he gonna do?   K: Doesn’t he get summers off? I just assumed that was when all of these were happening.   R: I don’t think he has tenure yet? Once he has tenure, maybe.   K: Yeah, yeah. Good point. Anyway, the whole point is: Indiana Jones, not a great character arc. Can he go back to the way things were? Yes. He does.   R: Apparently!   K: Over and over again.   R: He resets to default.   K: Yes. Getting back—I apologize, we got sidetracked there again—   R: It’s fine.   K: It’s fine, we get excited. So how do you actually go about tightening these up? When somebody gives you the incredible, helpful note of tighten up your themes and character arcs. So helpful. What do you do?   Well, so, for themes I think a good technique is sort of what I mentioned. Go back either through your outline or through your manuscript for revisions, and identify motivations and actions and what themes stem from those.   R: And color-code them maybe, like you  said.   [40:14]              K: Maybe color code them. Take a step back, so to speak. Take a thousand foot view and say, “Is the story driven by these or are they happening because the story’s the thing that’s driving here?” If it’s the second one, you do not have tight themes. The themes should be the ones driving the story and motivating the characters and influencing the plot.   R: And by driving the story, we don’t mean stop at the end of every two paragraphs and reiterate what your theme is.   K: Yes, so how do you tighten this up? Identify things that are happening. Be they actions of characters or elements of the plot. Maybe external forces of nature, depending on what your themes are, and go in and emphasize those a little bit. Make it so that—Yes, you can’t have a character turn to the audience, wink, and say, “I’m doing this for love!” But you certainly can have an inner dialogue where they are acknowledging and identifying that what is motivating them is their love for their dog.   R: Mhm.   K: Or, I guess, their significant other. Whatever.   R: Mostly the dog.   K: Yeah, probably the dog. This goes into the Show Me, Don’t Tell Me.   R: Mhm.   K: See the characters react based on things that are important to them, and that brings forward your themes. I don’t like the phrase “tighten up your themes” I like the phrase “strengthen your themes.”   R: Yeah.   K: And emphasize your themes. Showcase your themes. With themes, you’re not contracting them. You’re trying to disperse them a little bit more through the story. You are showing, not telling.   R: The thing is, like, a bouillon cube.   K: Yes.   R: It starts very small, but it goes throughout your entire project.   K: And then there’s no getting it out again. It’s in there.    R, laughing: Yeah.   K: Character arcs, on the other hand, are absolutely something that can be tightened and focused. So, how do you do this?    First, look at your themes. How are they affecting the story? How are they affecting the character’s decisions? Then look at what the characters are doing. Is it primarily reactionary? Are they just letting things happen to them? Or do they have agency? Are they making decisions themselves?    And it’s okay if, especially for the first part of the book, they’re just reacting. A lot of stories start out with a character just trying to get their feet under them, to recover and reorient themselves from something happening.   R: Although, I wanna say that that does not mean they shouldn’t have some sort of agency.   K: Yes, there needs to be decision-making in there.   R: Maybe they want something that they’re going to end up not wanting at the end.   K: Well, it can come down simply to something like they’re running away from the alien monster that grew from what was living in the back of their fridge and, do I run upstairs and lock myself in the bedroom or do I run out the front door?   Yes, they’re running, but they’re making a decision of how they’re best going to try to escape this.   R: And they can make the wrong decisions, too. I mean, that’s kind of part of the character arc.   K: That is part of the character arc. So tightening these up has to do with having the character come up against a conflict or an obstacle or a decision and then learning and growing and changing from it. So, again, identifying the parts at which your character is coming up against conflict in some way. And conflict, here, not meaning physical or argumentative. Sometimes the conflict can simply be, “It’s low tide, I need to catch fish and I can’t catch fish when it’s low tide.”   R: Right.    K: It can be like a force of nature. And then identifying how they’re reacting. Then, the next time it’s low tide, have they instead gone, “Ah, yes, I should catch extra fish because on this planet low tide lasts for three days and, therefore, I’m not going to be able to fish again for three days.” That’s growing and learning and making new mistakes.   R: Like staying on this planet where low tide lasts for three days. Can you imagine the smell?   K: There’s a very weird mood pattern on this planet.   R: It’s pitch black but low tide.   K: Yes, exactly. So somehow. It’s really weird because there is no moon, actually. No one really knows where the tides are coming from.   So identifying the areas of conflict for your character, where they’re coming up against adversity, and then seeing how they’re making decisions. If they’re just not reacting, if they’re just not doing anything over and over again, that’s not character development. That’s not a character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: Having them grow and change and learn, maybe thinking: Okay, I’m safe now. I’ve locked myself in my room from the alien creature from the back of the fridge can’t get me. Oh, hang on a second. It learned how to open doors. That’s... what do I do now? Okay, I’ve got a chair I can put up against the door.   And then finally getting to the point of going: you know what? I should have just run outside. I need to get out of this house.   R: Mhm.   K: So, again, identifying areas where your character is coming up into conflict, figuring out how they’re reacting, and making sure that they’re learning and changing and not reacting the same way.   This is not a real thing, I wish it was, the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? Obviously that’s not correct.   R: Right.   K: But it is important with character arcs and character development. Having your character do the same thing over and over again is not character arc.   R: Although there’s that stubbornness to that, or that unwillingness to grow, that can be the character arc and suddenly they realize doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is not getting me where I want to go. And the thing they learn is not to do that anymore.   K: I am now being eaten by the thing that lived in the back of the fridge. I regret my life choices.   R: Yes.    [both laugh]   R: And that’s the morality lesson—the moral of the tale is clean out your fridge.   K: Clean out your fridge, people!    R: And not just in August.   K: Is that a thing that you do in August?   R: No, I’m saying… it’s just about coming up on August as we record this, don’t make it an annual event. Make it a…   K: You know what’s funny is that with all of the quarantining and stuff, I have been so much better about cleaning the fridge out because I’m just here all the time.   R: Mhm.   K: And I’m kinda like, “Huh.”   R: Well, when you go into an office you procrastinate by going to the lounge and making a cup of coffee and getting a drink or going to talk to somebody about something. But, when you’re home, how do you procrastinate? The only thing you can do is clean.   K: It’s kinda like I’m looking at this going, “Huh, that might start talking to me soon. I should probably do something about that.”   R: But if you’d been going into an office, you would’ve said, “That thing is talking, I should probably do something about that.”   K: I’m gonna go back to my office.   R: At least you’d be the only one there.   K: Yeah, yeah. Anyway! That was a very long-winded way of answering your questions and I hope that—   R: We answered it.   K: We hope that was helpful and not just a series of me rambling about uh—   R: At least we talked about interesting movies and people can relate to, at least Ripley. Especially right now.   K: I think we can all relate to Ripley on some level. One of my favorite behind-the-scenes thing with Alien is, have you ever seen the cute scenes from there? There was a part, it was so ridiculous, it would have ruined the movie, the actor that played the alien was like 6’8” or something and they just put him in this giant rubber suit. And I can’t remember what part of the movie it would’ve been in, but it was one of those where the character’s backing slowly with their gun into a room and they hear something behind them and they turn around and the alien’s there.   And there’s footage out there—look this up—of the alien crab-walking up to them. So just imagine this giant, 6’8” man in this heavy, absurd rubber suit crab-walking on all fours up to this actor. It—I understand what they were trying to do, and the sound effects were certainly creepy, but… it just ruined the whole, it was too ridiculous-looking. Thankfully, they saw that and cut it.   R: I think that has a lot to do with the human joints versus where the joints were supposed to be in this alien.   K: Yeah. Well that’s like in The Exorcist with Regan walking backwards down the stairs. Part of how creepy about that is how unnatural it looks. You’ve got joints going in directions that maybe humans can do that, but they probably shouldn’t.   R: Right, yeah. Exactly. So theme. Stay limber.   K, laughing: Yes! Anyway, Ashley, we hope we answered that for you and keep us posted. Let us know how things go with the story. And if you want to keep us posted on anything else—   R: You can find us online. We are on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast. We are at Patreon.com/wmbcast where we have some awesome patrons who are supporting the show. And if you feel like we have been helpful, you can throw us some bus fare and stuff for when we’re allowed to go see each other again and get back together for our podcast episode recordings.   K: I was gonna say, I don’t think we’re allowed on buses anytime soon, Rekka.   R: No, we’re definitely not. And if you don’t have cash to spare to support the show, you can also help us out a lot by leaving us a rating on review on Apple podcasts. We’re everywhere. Stitcher, Spotify, all that good stuff. But if you wanna leave a review, it’s most helpful to leave it there. You can also shoot us an email, info@wmbcast.com, and we can answer a question if you have one. If you wanna keep it anonymous, that’s the way to do it. Otherwise, post it to Twitter like Ashley did, and we’ll answer it in a future episode.   K: Yeah. We’ll try our best. That’s for sure.   R: Yeah.   K: Alright, well, thanks everyone so much and we’ll see you in a couple weeks.   R: Take care, everyone!   [outro music plays]

Story of the show — NYC contractor whose business was struggling with the pandemic shutdown (2:00) What does it mean to guide your business? What's your North Star? (5:45)  Leadership means being selfless. (7:07) What do your employees really need? Autonomy, mastery, and purpose. (8:05) Why is guiding the business so hard for contractors? (10:00) You've gotta look at your business from 30,000 feet up, but how do you do that? (13:05) When I ask a new client, “What do you want?” they nearly always answer, “What do you mean?” How can you expect to get what you want if you don't even know what it is? (14:05) Why are contractors often reluctant to lean on mentors or peers? (16:55) The first step to solving a problem in your business is admitting that you have one. (18:55) What is vision? (19:33) How does a vision help you make good business decisions? (26:15) Your vision can't just be about you! (29:35) Quote of the episode — “A pessimist sees the problem in every opportunity, and an optimist sees the opportunity in every problem.” — Winston Churchill Mount Rushmore — Essential tech edition (30:52) One thing to take away — Write down the things you want, or they won't happen. (38:43) So, how do you begin writing what you want and creating a vision for your company? (42:15) Story Loop Closure — How has the NYC business owner transformed his company to not only survive the pandemic, but thrive? (44:45) Ethan's Minute — Our intern Ethan tries to nail down the key takeaways from the episode. See if he knocked it out of the park or if he struck out. (47:29) Quotable Moments “There has to be a reason why you're doing what you're doing, or you won't like doing it and you'll rob yourself of a sense of accomplishment and purpose.” — M “When you start working on guiding your business, that's when you start leaving your job and start becoming an owner of a business.” — K “You are who you surround yourself with.” — K “There is a lot of suffering in business, but it does not have to be that way.” — M Mount Rushmore HubSpot (Khalil's “George Washington”) Google Drive Stripe Asana Quickbooks (Martin's “George Washington”) Google Calendar Jobber Resources Drive by Daniel Pink 360 Leader by John C. Maxwell They Say I Make Money, So Why Don't I Have Any? by Martin Holland More from Martin www.annealbc.com    martin@anealbc.com  LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from Khalil www.benali.com  khalil@benali.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from The Cashflow Contractor Subscribe to Our Newsletter Ask Us A Question Sign Up For A Free Consultation www.thecashflowcontractor.com  info@thecashflowcontractor.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram

Hey kids! Are you ready to sell out to make cash fast?!  In today's episode of We Make Books, we discuss what artistic integrity is, how to tell if you've blown yours to smithereens, and why it's 100% okay and good to make a living from your art. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns. Stay safe everyone! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 33: Artistic Integrity and Suffering For Your Arttranscribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)[0:00]K: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between! I’m Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.R: And I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.K: And, Rekka, as a writer—R: Which I am! Totally.K: Which you are, yeah, of course you are. You probably have a lot of opinions about what people tell you— R: Everything.K: Well, yeah, a lot of things in general. But, specifically, about other people’s opinions and them giving you suggestions and guidance and thoughts about what you should do, not only with your writing, but your life and how to support your continued writing, in your life.R, unenthused: Yeah. Yeah, they do that. So, you’re gonna intermix with a lot of people’s opinions over the course of your writing career. Especially as you let other people read your work. K: So today we’re talking about artistic integrity.R: Right. When people tell you to change stuff, where do you plant your feet?K: Not only people telling you to change stuff, however, also what you’re doing with your life in the meantime to support your art.R: Mhm.K: We were thinking about this episode and thinking about this idea of what does it truly mean to be a writer?R: Mhm.K: And we start far clear of that definition—Or, we really steer clear of that conversation because I, personally, am of the opinion that if you are trying to write something professionally, that makes you a writer.R: Correct. I also agree with you.K: Yes, so now that we’ve got that established.R: If you’re listening to this podcast and then, when it’s done, you go and you try to work on your writing, you are a writer.K: You are a writer. Congratulations.R: If you just listen to this podcast and you think about writing and you never go write. Uh, we might have to debate that one.K: You’re a… future writer.R: Yes, hopefully. Hopefully an aspiring writer.K: Yes, there you go.R: To be a writer without a modifier, is to write.K: There ya go. But there’s also a lot of conversation around, like, well if you’re doing this then you’re not serious about your writing career. If you’re, you know, not focused 100% on only writing, then how could you be serious about your writing career?R: Which is funny, you know, because it just occurred to me—we don’t cover this in the episode—but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been at a family gathering, speaking of opinions, where they find out I’m a writer and they say, “Oh you should write _____.” Children’s book. A Gone Girl. You know, whatever’s hot at the moment. Their opinion is you’ve gotta write the most commercial thing that I’ve actually heard of right now.K: Yeah, yeah. So there’s—You’re gonna run up against a lot of this stuff in your career, as you interact with people. So we, in this episode, talk first about this notion of if you’re not suffering, you’re not writing. Which is silly.R, sarcastically: If you’re not abusing prescription drugs or if you’re not abusing alcohol, then are you even trying to be creative?K: Yeah, exactly. Then what are you doing? But then, also, we discuss having to make changes and modifications to your story at the recommendations of other industry professionals. So it’s all within the same subject, but we’re covering two different angles from this. The before and the after, if you will.R: With an intro of: Why do we have to suffer, again? K: Yeah! Thanks everyone, again, for tuning in and we hope you enjoy the episode![intro music plays]R, deadpan: Kaelyn, I’m suffering.K: You’re suffering?R: Yes. Because I’m supposed to.K, ironically: And do you know what? That makes your work more valid!R: I am, yes, validated and authentic because of my pain and anguish.K: … Except you’re not because— R: No. ‘Cause that’s bullshit.K: ‘Cause that’s not really a thing.R: I mean, yes, it’s possible that someone who puts out good work is also suffering, but I would like to posit that I wish everyone felt better and that we could all see, because we all feel great, that suffering is not required for good art.K: So today we’re talking about artistic integrity.R: Or we’re going to try to.K: We’re going to try to. And what we kept coming back to is this idea that we seem to have a fixation on if you’re happy, you’re not making good art.R: If you haven’t cut off an ear, then you aren’t suffering enough.K: Well, I mean, look at tuberculosis. That was considered an artistic disease. People deliberately infected themselves with it because it was a slow, wasting, elegant disease. Of your body slowly breaking down and your heart not working anymore. R: Yeah. Lovely. Sign me up.K: Yeah, no. I mean that was… And, of course, it made you look like a vampire which was very in, in Victorian fashions, for whatever reason.R: It’s still kind of in sometimes, in some circles. Yeah, I mean, just give me some consumption and allow me to cough blood into my lace handkerchief on a settee and that’s how it works, right? K: Pretty much, yeah. You know the: [coughs softly] Oh goodness. I’d better tuck that away. I feel like every movie set in that era now—R: Someone has consumption, yeah. Both: Discreetly coughing blood into a handkerchief.K: And then, you know—R: Hiding it from their loved ones. That’s the ticket. That’s how you get to the Big Times.K: Look at Mary Shelley! She wrote Frankenstein while she and her husband and some of their friends were off seaside trying to cure his tuberculosis.R: Among other things.K: Among other things. So, anyway, you don’t need tuberculosis to produce good art.R: Please, in fact, do not try.K: We’re gonna start with this idea that levels of success in your life are dictating whether or not you’re a “real writer.” And there’s this very strong feeling toward: I am a writer, these are the things I will write, I will not do anything else but write this thing. And, if I need to, I will suffer for my art. I don’t care if I’m living in my parents’ garage living off ramen noodles. My art is my art, nothing is going to change that. I will suffer for it. Conversely, you’ve got some people who are trying to write what they wanna write and then also doing other things to supplement their income in the meantime.R: Right.K: And, Rekka, would you say that that is looked down upon in some circles?R: There are definitely circles that feel that people who write for IP which is, you know, a Star Wars book or a Minecraft book or a World of Warcraft book. Folks who write other people’s IP because it pays the bills are ‘selling out’.[07:19]K: Well, I wouldn’t even take it that far. You know, obviously, there is that component of the sell-out, but what about if you’re just picking up freelance jobs writing marketing copy?R: Right, so. Some people would probably say, everything you write that isn’t your greatest work of that time, is a waste of time, or is distracting you from being a better writer. Or something like that. Instead of taking the opportunity to say, pour your heart into everything you do and use the jobs that are not going to reward you artistically to practice something. Just writing all the time is always a good exercise if you wanna be a writer.K: Also, you know what’s nice? Money. R: Money is also pretty good. K: Money’s good to have.R: If you can pay for groceries, you can fuel your mind and body and then you might be a better writer.K: And, again, we did back into this notion of: doing something for the money lessens your artistic integrity. R: Right.K: There’s nothing wrong with doing things for money. Money is not a dirty thing.R: I mean, it’s physically pretty dirty.K: Well, yeah, no and there’s cocaine residue on a lot of it. But money, the concept of money itself—and having it—on its own, it doesn’t corrupt you. Being able to support yourself and live in a lifestyle that you consider comfortable, there’s nothing wrong with that.R: No, that should be what everyone aspires to and is able to reach, just by hard work. But that’s not the world we’re in. You know.K: Yeah, well, that’s a different issue.R: It’s a different episode. The Despair episode.K: But that’s exactly what we’re talking about here. There’s this mental block of: if I’m doing things other than creating my art, and I’m doing it strictly for the sake of the money, am I selling out? No, of course you’re not. A lot of people have jobs that they don’t necessarily love that you’re doing for the money. I mean, do you think I just wake up every day and go, “Boy. I really can’t wait to get on the phone and talk to people about network video equipment.” No!R: I mean, I assumed you do, but…K: Well, actually I do like talking to people, but… I’m doing this because they pay me to do this! And there is definitely this stigma in, I think, especially artistic circles that if you are working in some sort of creative or artistic endeavour, you must be doing it strictly for the love of doing it.R: Right.K: Rekka, you’re a graphic designer. R: Mhmm.K: Do you love everything you do?R: Absolutely not.K: Every project you work on?R: No, no. Not really at all. I mean, it’s not that I don’t love the work. I enjoy doing the process. I take pride in my work, but each individual project is not guaranteed to be something that inspires me and fills me with joy.K: Yeah, and so, why is writing any different? Because you can still take on a writing project that does not necessarily inspire you and fill you with joy, but it’s gonna pay you.R: I mean, you know what doesn’t inspire me and fill me with joy? Is the first draft? Can I just not do that part?K: That’s an excellent point.R: I mean, if I was going to be completely true to my artistic self, I would only revise and edit. And outline. I do like outlining.K, laughing: You do love outlines. But that’s the thing, is that your art is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Now, if you need money, and you have other means of working within your artistic means to make that money, that does not make what you’re doing any less valid.R, outraged: And you know what’s just absurd is that an artist is only supposed to—their work is only supposed to be very, very valuable after they’re dead. Like, what kind of bullshit is that? That the artist is the only one who doesn’t get to profit from their work?K: Well, that’s because at that point they’re not gonna make any more of it.R: Right.K: Some, and I’ll take it an extra step in how it’s even more sick, is because your entire catalogue is now complete. So everyone can evaluate what you will ever make in your life against itself.R: It sounds like you’re defending not paying the artist what their work is actually worth.K: Absolutely not. R: Yeah.K: Just saying, this is why stuff becomes more valuable after people die.R: No, but I’m saying—becomes more valuable after people die because you know they’re not gonna make any more. People wish they’d acted sooner. Wish they’d discovered them sooner, whatever. But why can’t that artist make a living wage of their art and still be an artist?K: Well, I think there are—writers are a little bit unique in this. Because writers, I’d say, are one of the groups of artists that do make their money in their lifetime. I’m sure there’s probably studies and things out there about this, there’s probably always a spike of books being bought after a writer dies.R: Mhm.K: That’s to be expected. The same way that there’s people who watch movies that an actor was in, after that actor dies. Part of it’s a nostalgia factor, part of it’s a “Oh! I’d always wanted to check that person out!” and now they’re dead. I think artists, however, and—this is a little bit all over the place—If you think of the modern artists that we can name right now, off the top of your head. Who can you name right now, off the top of your head? R: Banksy.K: Yeah. That’s exactly what I was gonna say. I think most people will say Banksy.R: Mhm. Because of headlines.K: Because of headlines and because Banksy’s got shtick. The reason, I think, behind a lot of this—and this is something that does not apply to writers—is that artists that create paintings, sculptures, what have you, it’s not easily accessible to the community at large. The art community is pretty exclusive. I would go so far as to say snobbish, in some regards.R: Yeah. But, again, it’s in their best interest to be snobbish. K: Absolutely it is, yep.R: There’s like a false rarity.K: Yeah, and that’s the idea with art is that, in theory, they’re creating one painting and there’s only gonna be one of those ever. Writers, on the other hand, benefit from this great thing where, first of all, their work is incredibly accessible.R: Right.K: Especially in this day and age. And, also, once you make a book, you can give the same piece of art to a bunch of people. And they can all read it together and interpret it how they want to interpret it.R: From across the country, across the world. They do not have to be in one gallery looking at it for the two hours that the gallery is open.K: Yes. So, that also then puts some pressure on the writers, I think. Who are trying to navigate and discover and figure out their own art. I resent the idea that working on projects that are not your magnum opus for money makes you less of a writer, less of an artist.R: Right.K: Because why would it?R: Because if you’re a chef you better not ever eat a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese.K, laughing: I don’t think anyone should eat a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese, ever. But that’s, you know.R: Hey, it’s delicious. I don’t eat it, but that’s not because I don’t like the taste.K: Ah, see, I was never a fan.R: Oh, okay. K: My mom used to try to—I remember even when I was a kid, my mom would be like, “Oh, we’re having—” and my sisters and brother would be so excited. I would be like, “Can I just have a sandwich, please? I don’t think this is good.”R: It’s funny. My mom never bought it, so when I’d go to a friend’s house and they were making it, I would always be like, “Oh, my god this is amazing!”K: So exciting!R: Yeah.K: No, I was never a fan.R: So one of the things I need to point out is that “the dream” of being an author is becoming a full time writer.K: Yes.R: One of the things that’s very difficult to do is be a full time anything, if you’re not being paid for it.K, sighing: Yes.R: Somehow we haven’t worked out how to make that easy.K: Yeah. The thing is that no one is going to pay you enough money to live off of for the rest of your life, to sit and work on writing something.R: Yeah.K: At some point you’ve gotta produce something that can be sold.R: Yes. And the more you can produce that can be sold, the better, for your income stream predictability.K: Now, that said, the thing that you’re producing that can be sold, like my earlier example, might be market copy.R: Yeah.K: Maybe, you know, you do need to spend a lot of time still working on what is truly deep in your artist heart that you want to put out in the world. But, by doing that, you’re supporting yourself. And the people that are paying you to do it are, in a roundabout way, supporting your writing. R: Yeah! It’s pretty funny how that works, right? They are supporting your writing career, even if all they want from you is some marketing text of 300 words or less. If you get paid for that, that supports your writing career. When you can pay for the basic necessities of your life, your stress goes down and it makes it a heck of a lot easier to work on your writing. I know we said the Suffering Artist is an unfair thing, and that’s why. You can’t create if you are spending eighteen hours of every day tearing your hair out and six hours of every day not sleeping and creating fever-driven work. That’s not healthy and it’s not sustainable and it’s not kind that we’ve set up this expectation that you should suffer. So having your basic income needs met, through whatever means.I would happily “become a full time writer” and work six hours every couple of days as a barista or something like that.K: Mhm.R: I mean, to me, that’s actually kind of fun because I love coffee, I love talking to people, and I, you know, worked a similar job in high school. So, to me, that sounds like fun. That’s probably some people’s absolute nightmare and that’s why we have so many people in the world who can handle different jobs. Some people are better at it than others. K: There are people with my job that I think would rather walk into the ocean than do my job. I don’t think my job is that hard or difficult, in terms of my day to day. For some people it would be a living nightmare.R: So for people who can write all day, you probably still can’t write creatively all day. Coming up with your novel. If you spent ten hours at the keyboard every day on your novel, you would burn out. Because your brain just needs to switch tracks sometimes. If you can work from home as a full time writer, I don’t think you’re going to spend all that time working on your novel. It’s not like, “Oh! Now, with a day job, I write two hours a day. But now I’m going to be able to write ten hours a day and it’s going to make me so much more productive!” It may not actually increase your creative writing output by anything.But what you can do to supplant that is to continue to write copy, you can write non-fiction op-eds, you can write things that you can submit to Tor.com, kind of things.K: You can write book reviews!R: Book reviews, exactly! Articles on the industry. Get supported that way.K: Go back and listen to our episode from a few weeks ago about publishing reviews and publishing literature. Publishers Weekly has hundreds of people whose job is just to freelance write book reviews for them.R: Yup.K: If you want to remain in your realm of employ— R: Your wheelhouse.K: Yeah! That’s a great way to do it.R: And that was Episode 29: Industry Reviews. K: This notion that doing anything but working on what it is you want to publish is selling out, I think, is a very damaging mentality to have. I think it, long-term, could end up hurting your career.R: Mhm.K: And it’s certainly not gonna make you any friends.[20:19]R: Yes, and these might lead to new discoveries. The things you learn—if you have to research and write copy for something that you might never have researched—you might end up putting into a book someday. Everything you do is either writing exercise or just brain exercise, so I don’t think we should discount anything. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing, everything feeds your experiences and it comes into your writing later.K: I look back at weird jobs I had in college and I can’t believe the stuff that I picked up and took away from that. That was just to make some extra money while I was a student. Did that mean that I wasn’t very serious about my studies and I was copping out on all this? No, absolutely not! It meant that I was a college student and had no money and occasionally liked to drink beer and therefore needed money to get beer.R: Right.K: I don’t think anyone would ever accuse me of not being serious about becoming a historian because I tutored and worked in the library. And I don’t think that it’s fair, or even rational, to say the same thing about writers.R: Yeah! And your example is perfect because you tutored and worked in the library and these are things, actually, not all that far away from what you were majoring in.K: Yeah!R: I mean, it’s kind of like writing business copy or corporate copy or commercial copy instead of working on your novel.K: So now, that said, there is sort of a flipside to this conversation about artistic integrity and that is once you’ve finished something, now.R: Mhm.K: So you have suffered, you have struggled, you have rolled the boulder up the hill and now someone is interested in publishing this. Maybe you just even hired an editor to take a look at it.R: Mhm.K: And they’ve got some suggestions. R: Right. So this could be, like Kaelyn was saying, an editor, it could be an agent. It could be a beta reader.K: Let’s say you’ve got a completed manuscript, it’s in good enough shape that you’re gonna let other people see it. I’m gonna use the example, here, of an agent or an editor. Let’s say we’re dealing with someone at a professional level, at this point. They say, “Listen. I really like this book. The zombie dinosaurs at the end are a really great twist. Never saw that coming. I really like how the aliens show up at the beginning and they’re the ones who, it turns out, were manipulating the zombie dinosaurs the whole time. Got one little problem here though, at one point you introduce some hobbits. The hobbits just really don’t go with the story. I think you need to take out the hobbits and really shift this to complete sci-fi, rather than making it a little bit of a sci-fi fantasy.” But! If the hobbits are something really important to your story, in your mind, how do you approach this? And if you change that, what does that say about your artistic integrity?R: Right. So this is a absurd example of some of the possibilities—K, contrarily: No, it’s not. I’m gonna go write this book after we’re finished.R: Well, good! I hope you leave the hobbits in.[K laughs]R: But Kaelyn and I were talking about this before we started recording. I gave a more concrete, or more likely, example that she avoided. But I think what she’s doing is making a generalization and we can go into the specifics of where do you make these decisions. You have to be able to draw the line and know where your line is on the various things that you might be asked. K: Now, I’m going to stop Rekka real quick and say, when you draw your line, that means that you’ve gotta be willing and ready to walk away from something.R: Mhm. That might be an agent who was going to offer you a deal, but they just think you are too stubborn.K: That line has to be a real line for you. So, before you are willing to draw it in the sand and stick the stake in the ground, think really long and hard about how worth it that thing is to you.R: The nice thing is, in most cases, you’re gonna be able to have a conversation with the person making the suggestion to see what it is about the hobbits they don’t like. K: Like the big feet. They must be so gross, they don’t wear shoes.R: Yeah! Is it just that this editor apparently has a thing against feet and it’s just going to trip them up, specifically, or is it honestly the fantasy aspect of it. Is there a logical reason? Is there something that actually contradicts something else you’re doing in your book? If every other character in your book is a human, and everything is dealing with the humans and the aliens, and then these dinosaur zombies, maybe the hobbits do feel like they came from another book. And if there’s no logical explanation, someone might be able to debate you into seeing in that way. And saying, “Pull the hobbits out, put ‘em in another book! I don’t have a problem with that. But not this book.”K: Rekka was right, I made kind of an absurdist, general example because it’s just trying to give you a big picture idea. Things you are more likely to encounter, though, are going to be related to the marketability of your book. In that example, I had said, we want to take the fantasy element of this out and move it more towards a strictly sci-fi audience that we think will pick up on this really well. But then more controversial things could come up. What if, instead, the conversation is: this queer character is going to alienate a lot of the target audience.R: There’s an excellent question to respond with that: Do we care about that audience?K: Yes! So this is where I’m saying your line is. Because the thing is that if you’re talking to, for instance, an agent, or an editor at a publishing house for that matter, at the end of the day everyone is trying to make money off of this book.R: Mhm.K: Thankfully, a lot of the publishing market and the people involved have shifted where, not only is this stuff— R: Less controversial than it used to be, yeah.K: Not only is writing things that ten, fifteen years ago would have been a nail in the coffin for a book, it’s celebrated and encouraged now. People are looking for it. But someone might say to you, “Listen. This is a hard military sci-fi book. The people, this social commentary you have in it, that’s not going to appeal to this audience. They just wanna read about spaceships fighting each other near Jupiter. If you wanna sell a lot of this, take that stuff out.”R: Right, so if someone’s looking at your book and they see it as military science fiction, with an unfortunate helping of social commentary, when what you were doing was—Your vision was to have the social commentary as a throughline with the framing of this military science fiction genre, you two may never see eye to eye on this.K: And that may make them not wanna publish your book.R: And that may make you not want to publish with them! I mean, it goes both ways. If someone comes to you and they want to fundamentally change what you’re doing with the book, or in the case of the queer characters, if they want to strip out diversity or identity that you strongly believe in supporting, maybe walking away is the best option. People seem to fall into the trap of this may be the only offer I ever get.K: But, here’s the thing: it might be.R: It might be!K: And that is a very—And this is why I’m saying you need to figure out where your line is because, I won’t sugarcoat it, that could be a very hard decision for you to make.R: But, how do you make that decision? Try to picture yourself in five years, having gone with what the changes they suggested were. How are you going to feel about that?K: By the way, you may be totally fine with those changes. Maybe the agent says, “Listen, I want you to take the social commentary out of this first book. Just get a hard military sci-fi book going, build an audience, and then once you’ve hooked them, let’s absolutely go back and write that book.” Not everything is going to be a clear cut-and-dry, this or nothing. As Rekka said, you know, there’s probably gonna be a conversation here. There’s gonna be a talk about this, but it is something that you’re gonna have to decide. Is it more important to you to write the book that you had set out to write, or is it more important to you to get a book published?R: Right. Keep in mind that in these situations, where this is your first chance, your first debut book we assume. This does set the tone for the rest of your career. Under this pen name. There’s always a chance to debut again with a different pen name in a different genre, or just to start over. But if you do that because you regret the choices you made—Keep that in mind as you make the choices. If the choice isn’t a big deal to you. If, as Kaelyn said, it doesn’t bother you to make the requested changes then that doesn’t even come into play. Clearly, it’s not a thing you’re going to regret. But don’t do it because you feel like you need their approval. K: Now, also though, changing those things based on suggestions also does not make you a sell-out. There is nothing wrong with an agent saying, “Listen, if you can make these small changes,” and you’re on board with them and happy with them, and the agent is saying, “Make these because it will reach a broader audience,” or “It will reach this more focused and fanatical audience and you can sell more books,” that also does not make you a sell-out. There is nothing wrong with making some small adjustments to try to get your book to appeal to a broader audience. Because, again, there is nothing wrong with wanting to try to make money off your writing. R: Right.K: And to capitalize the ways that you’re doing that.R: As long as you’re not compromising your morals.K: Yes! Yeah, of course.R : If you, as Kaelyn said, if you can make these changes and be happy with them. If you make those changes and you hate them forever, that’s not the right change for you to make.K: Can you sleep at night, having made these changes?R: Right, can you sleep at night five years from now?K: Or is there a pit in your stomach every time you think about it?R: Yeah. If this is the sort of thing where it’s that moment you think back on and, no matter how far away from it you get, you’re embarrassed every time or you squirm in discomfort, then keep that in mind. K: One thing I’m gonna bring up from the publishing side of things. As a writer, do not think: “Well, I’ll agree with this now, but when it comes time to actually put this on paper and start getting it published, I’ll just leave it in there and fight with them about it then.” Don’t do that for a couple reasons.One, you’re gonna piss people off. And that’s just not something you wanna do. If you had a conversation with the understanding that you would do things in good faith, hold up to that. Because, conversely, there is probably language in your agreement that—R: That you are going to change those things.K: —that you are going to do this. It is not uncommon for agents and publishing houses to put specific things in contracts that say: blahblahblah, with the understanding that you will do the following. You will take the hobbits out of the book. You will not mention anyone’s feet. The zombie dinosaurs will remain zombies.It is not uncommon to find those kinds of clauses and stipulations and agreements. And the reason that publishing houses do this is because they’re used to dealing with authors and their protectiveness over certain elements of their story. So if you agree to something and say, “Yes, I’m going to make those changes,” guess what? You’ve committed to making those changes.R: Yeah.K: Even if it’s not in writing, you are going to burn a lot of bridges if you don’t.R: If they brought it up with you before they offered you a contract, it’s that important to them.[33:00]K: Yes, yes exactly.R: And—here’s the thing—we’ve been talking about all of this as though there’s a contract right in front of you that, like, you could sign this if you make these changes. You may also get revise and resubmit requests from agents or you may get rejections with some suggestions from agents, if you’re lucky. I mean, you might get form letters, too, but if an agent says, “I’m passing on this, here’s why ___.” Don’t necessarily take that as the next one will take it, if I make this change.K: That’s a very good point, yeah. R: Especially if it’s something that you feel weird about making the change on. Like, if you think making one agent’s request is going to get you the next agent, you are sadly mistaken. Everyone is an individual. We have not joined the Borg hive mind yet. So, therefore, what one agent says does not apply to all agents. Unless they tell you your grammar is bad. Then you can verify that. K: Yeah, that’s probably pretty across the board.R: But, yeah, so if they’re rejecting with some suggestions, that doesn’t mean you’re a shoo-in if you make those changes, for the next person. At best, you wanna evaluate, if you disagree with them, why you disagree, what that person’s perspective on it might have been, and then you can consider: maybe I want to go in and revise that section or revise that element before I submit again. But if you react in compliance with every criticism you get, you’re going to have a very exhausting writing life.K: Yeah, yeah exactly. So artistic integrity, I think, is murky waters for a lot of people because you want to sell your book, you want people to enjoy it. You want to appeal to a broad audience. One of the biggest issues, I think, a lot of books come up against is relatability. At the end of the day, no matter what, relatability is central to appealing to an audience. However, you don’t have to water that down to the point where you end up with a bland character who is a placeholder for anyone to insert themselves into. R: Right.K: That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re not talking about making this essentially a Choose Your Own Adventure starring— R: You.K: —the person reading the book. So it is a hard thing for a lot of people to navigate. But, at the end of the day, you have to go with the choices and decisions that are gonna make you happy and are going to make you satisfied with what you’ve put out into the world.R: Right. And, honestly, there’s a feeling in your gut that you know when you’re not happy with an idea. And there’s a feeling in your gut when you just feel silly that you didn’t see that change, you know? And they’re different. They come from different parts of you. So learn to identify how you take criticism. Maybe go out and find a critique group and just learn to take the hits and understand your reactions to them. That’s a good exercise. I mean, I would hope that someone’s read your work before an agent or an editor and a publisher, so if you haven’t gotten people’s eyes on it and gotten their reactions to it, it might be just a good place to start. To help process your own feelings about what people say. And it’s gonna be different from what the agent or editor says. That’s why we’re saying, “Would you make these changes for an agent or editor?” Because they’re the people who hold the keys to the next step in your career.K: And, again, I would just round out this conversation by reinforcing: it is not a bad idea to sit down and write down, for that matter, what the most important things are to you.R: Yeah.K: Is it most important to get your story, exactly how you have it, out into the world, or do you just first want to get a story out into the world, and get it in front of as many people as possible? Neither of them are bad. You just have to decide what’s important to you.R: Right. Neither is the wrong answer. But what’s your answer?K: Exactly, yeah. And it might be somewhere in between! There’s no—I shouldn’t be presenting these as binary options. But decide what’s important and work from there. R: So, basically, you need to identify your goals and then ask yourself, whenever you’re faced with a decision: which direction, or does this get me to my goal? K: Yep, yep. So that’s artistic integrity, our thoughts on it.R: Artistic Integrity: something that has riled people up for centuries. We covered it in thirty-eight minutes. K: I mean, what can I say. R: The simplest things get people very angry. So, as usual, you can yell at us @wmbcast on Twitter or Instagram—K: Yeah, tell us if we’re violating our artistic integrity just by having this podcast in the first place.R: And you can reach out to us with questions, also, or ideas for future episodes. You can find us at wmbcast.com for our backlist of episodes. This is Episode 33 now, so there’s lots to catch up on if you are just entering the stream now. You can also find us at patreon.com/wmbcast where you can support us for as much as you like, in order to give us a little financial nod of approval. And if that’s too much to ask, which we totally understand, if you could leave us a rating and review—and review!?—on Apple podcasts, to help our audience grow and help us reach more people so we can give them our opinions on artistic integrity.K: Ratings and reviews, they feed the algorithm.R: They do, they do.K: We are all beholden to the algorithm.R: And its appetites! All right, thanks everyone! We’ll talk to you next time.[outro music plays]

Tameka Kee has spent the last decade connecting the dots of technology, media, and marketing. Currently the Vice President of Content & Strategy at Wise Public Relations, she joins us today to talk about some common misconceptions of virtual reality, where we are now with the technology, what she sees emerging in the coming years, and how it is changing in both consumer and enterprise markets. She also talks about successful moments in integrating sponsors into events, and lessons she is learning now as she begins to produce events in the VR/AR universe.   Takeaways: [3:25] Tameka is also the head of the LA Chapter for the VR/AR association, an industry trade group dedicated to advance and connect digital technology experts and enthusiasts. [6:19] VR is on a continuum of how immersive an experience it is, and Tameka sees the Oculus Quest as a game changer on the consumer front. [10:11] In the enterprise, VR is changing how companies do HR training that requires empathy and compassion, as the sensory-motor activity makes participants really feel like they are there in real time. [12:05] In medicine, there are a lot of VR and AR companies creating ways to make surgery better, and help doctors perform at super in-depth performance standards. [17:40] Tameka comes from a journalistic background and remained a champion for integrity and information even when she shifted to working in an event and sponsorship space. She hasn’t won every battle, but most times finds that audiences and events align with high-value content. [29:30] Part of the challenge with events in digital marketing is sponsors want to be thought leadership sponsors, when other opportunities may make for a more authentic and trustworthy integration. [37:37] Digital marketers can benefit in looking at events from other industries to get inspiration. [40:41] As much as the advertising and digital industry changes, relationships and networking still are at the forefront of long-lasting and consistently attended events. [42:11] As both an event producer and programmer, Tameka sees there are many aspects to consider such as name recognition, content, and financial contribution. [47:28] Tameka loves events due to her natural curiosity, love of seeing what’s coming up, and interacting with the leaders of the present day and the future. [56:14] It takes effort to find good speakers and organize an agenda and book a venue; oftentimes, people underestimate the responsibility of an events planner. [62:36] Tameka explains The Influx Lab, and the upcoming event on December 1 to discuss the conversation about all aspects of mixed reality. [70:11] TMI Podcast PSA: If you gave a TEDx Talk, please don’t weave it into every conversation that you have for the rest of your life. Please leave it on the stage (or at least just your Facebook profile).   Quotes: ● “Your job is to be the thought leader in your conversation.”  — T ● “Good sponsors will actually stand back and do what you do at events.”  — T ● “You can’t have people involved in a digital event who aren’t doing digital, it doesn’t work that way.” — K ● “There are people now that make their living just speaking at events!” — K ● “You should have something to build your expertise on, as your way to being an expert.” — T ● “I’m a nerd, and I get to play with cool VR things before anyone else does.” — T ● “Let’s have the conversation now about VR and AR.” — T Mentioned in This Episode: LA-VR/AR Association Tree Oculus Quest Mindcotine Facebook: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver Digiday eMarketer Adtec Search Engine Land P Diddy C2 Montreal @Tameka Kee The Influx Lab Nancy Baker Cahill Wise PR

@heckerhut, @dirkjaeckel and @j32804 Some time passed after the DAO goxed. We will probably need to mention it again, because it raised a lot of questions about jurisdictions etc. What has happened since? http://cointimes.tech/2016/08/12/etcdao-stolen-coins-frozen-by-exchanges-was-sent-by-ethereum-foundation-developers/ Esma Discussion paper https://www.esma.europa.eu/sites/default/files/library/2016-773_dp_dlt.pdf Dominic Williams about tokens and security law https://medium.com/@dominic_w/on-protocol-tokens-and-securities-law-8e54d2237eee#.ll96uwj8n Sian Jones gave some regulatory update on Epicenter Bitcoin. EU regulations are not so restrictive towards fintech / virtual currency businesses? But what about crowdsales? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F-Z3rlOapk Its funny that there is a certain amount of worries around whether crowdsales are legal, and whether people can get in trouble basically printing their own money or issuing securities. As a friend of mine put it: blockchain is a hot new cool thing for borderline legal shenanigans. EU institutions are complex and unless you dog through messy pile of documents, it's hard to get your head around. http://ec.europa.eu/finance/index_en.htm Predictions for the coming year. Thats a bit scary, but can we make predictions? K: There will probably even more of the ICO cambrian explosion More blockchain based but centralised currencies Show notes from the previous unpublished recording: It would have been tricky not to mention TheDAO as an example while discussing possible legal issues surrounding blockchains and DAOs. Here are some links we have mentioned: Article by Coindesk "How to sue The DAO Hacker" (before TheDAO attack) http://www.coindesk.com/sue-dao-hacker/ Pre TheDAO atteck article by Coindesk "How to sue a DAO" http://www.coindesk.com/how-to-sue-a-decentralized-autonomous-organization/ Reads on Decentralised Autonomous Organisations selected by Florian Glatz: Bitcoin as an unmanned company "Bitcoin and the Three Laws of Robotics" https://letstalkbitcoin.com/bitcoin-and-the-three-laws-of-robotics A Legal Analysis of the DAO Exploit and Possible Investor Rights https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/a-legal-analysis-of-the-dao-exploit-and-possible-investor-rights-1466524659 DAC (Decentralized Autonomous Corporations) revisited by Daniel Larimer https://letstalkbitcoin.com/dac-revisited DAOs, DACs, DAs and More: An Incomplete Terminology Guide by Vitalik Buterin (2014) https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/05/06/daos-dacs-das-and-more-an-incomplete-terminology-guide/ Bootstrapping A Decentralized Autonomous Corporation: Part I by Vitalik Buterin (2013) https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bootstrapping-a-decentralized-autonomous-corporation-part-i-1379644274 Part II https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bootstrapping-an-autonomous-decentralized-corporation-part-2-interacting-with-the-world-1379808279 and Part III https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bootstrapping-a-decentralized-autonomous-corporation-part-3-identity-corp-1380073003 General legal issues related to blockchains: "Beyond Bitcoin: issues in Regulating Blockchain Transactions" - long, but a very basic, with explanation how blockchain is different from what we have seen before http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3827&context=dlj We have also mentionned that it might be safer to use other than Turing complete languages for smart contracts, because Turing complete ones are inherently undecidable, which makes it impossible to know what a "smart contract" will do before running it. Towards safer languages for smart contracts by Jack Pettersson, Robert Edström presented at DEVCON1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2uwUdzVD9I Using dependent and polymorphic types for safer development of smart contracts (master thesis) http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/234939/234939.pdf Other links: Concept of a-legality was explored by Hans Lindah in the field of philosophy of law http://www.hanslindahl.org/ Plantoid - a robotic plant, an old concept recently connected to the blockchain by David Bovill http://plantoid.cc/view/welcome-visitors/view/plantoid Currently Primavera de Filippi is working on the implementation http://projects.stwst.at/stwst48/plantoid-by-primavera-de-filippi-david-bovill-vincent-roudaut-and-sara-renaud/ This year EU Parliament published some stuff on virtual currencies. They are usually little bit behind the curve - while people are discussing the DAOs they are getting their heads around bitcoin. But hopefully EU people will be catching up fast. EU Parliament report on Virtual Currencies http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+REPORT+A8-2016-0168+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN There is also a possibility to attend public hearings at EU institutions and hear what they have to say about regulations and how these regulations are coming into existence http://www.europarl.europa.eu/committees/en/econ/events.html

K - Hello, my name‛s Kate. I’‛m English. Nice to meet you ! M - Hi, I’‛m Matthew, I come from Los Angeles. Nice to meet you, too ! K - Let’‛s go to the stadium ! Hey, taxi ! M - Is that Buckingham Palace ? K - Yes it is. The Queen lives here ! And she is in ! M - How do you know ?
K - Because the Royal Standard is flying ! M - Now Big Ben and the Houses of Parliament ! That‛s beautiful ! K - Here is St Paul‛s Cathedral.
M - I can see the Tower of London too. What about the ravens ?
K - There are 7 living there !

FLAGSHIP FRIDAY (8/23/19) Rapid Fire Pro Crypto Overstock.com CEO Patrick Byrne resigns.  Banano has released their whitepaper, and I'm pissed it's not called a Yellow Paper. Holy shit I clicked on it and it's a yellow paper. Pepe is on the cover. Omg it's animated lol Horizon State (HST) Folds - maybe we should have a that's a scam rapid fire? Lumiflux and his Dust Attack Someone on reddit posted a reminder that this would not work on Monero. (2020 Presidential candidate Andrew Yang is in favor of blockchain voting) - K Running on Dem ticket, outsider type On his site in his policies he has "modernize voting" section With current tech we shouldn't have to wait in line at polling stations Machines being used are just as vulnerable to tampering/hacking "Americans should be able to vote via their mobile device, with verification done via blockchain. This would dramatically increase participation in all elections, whether local, state or federal." "It is 100% technically possible to have fraud-proof voting on our mobile phones today using the blockchain." Modernize Voting - Andrew Yang for President CRYPTO AROUND THE WORLD Bitcoin & The Hong Kong Protests - K Going into 11th weekend of protests, 1.7m people marching (about 25%) One of the Crypto ATM providers, Genesis block, giving out water bottles and umbrellas Funded by international BTC donations Bottles themselves have QR code to donate more btc to fund more supplies (rant) Overall ATM providers say they see a decrease in volume (about 10%) and premium price in HK dollars Ukrainian Power Plant Officials Accused of Unauthorised Cryptocurrency Mining - K There is definitely a demand for cheap power, operations setting up in SBU discovered cryptocurrency mining operations at one of the country's nuclear plants alleges that the internet connection installed to facilitate the mining operation posed a significant security risk local court said confidential data about the plant’s operation has also been leaked online. Iceland, thanks to its near-endless geothermal energy Canada - Hydroelectricity Iran - Subsidized energy So the people working at the plant saw a chance to pay no power costs Saw this in Venezuela as well since government subsidizes power A miner in China serving 3.5yrs for stealing energy from a train network for a 50 rig set up (rental near train lines) Moscow's blockchain voting system cracked a month before election - K French security researcher, Pierrick Gaudry, has found a critical vulnerability in the blockchain-based voting system Officials planned on using it for the elections...next month Gaudry figured how to derive private keys from public keys He basically said its because they used a method which uses encryption key sizes that were too small to be secure. Dude's Quote It can be broken in about 20 minutes using a standard personal computer, and using only free software that is publicly available We dont know exactly what he could do with the private keys, protocols not in English yet. "In the worst case scenario, the votes of all the voters using this system would be revealed to anyone as soon as they cast their vote." TBF - This was thanks to officials posting it on Github and asking researchers to attack Moscow officials agree key is too small, that it was only for trial period. They said they would go from 256 bits to 1024 Gaudry thinks they need 2048 And Gaudry will get $15k (1m Ruble) THAT'S A SCAM Long Story of a Scam - Reddit - B Guy under the username Montana02115 named Dean starts it. User reporting is IdkWutImTalkingAbout Asks him about some project called NKN. Dude says he works with a team that handles private sales of equity for IEOs etc and invites the guy to his Team Speak. Gets welcomed to the research team. Sends a SAFT for a token called Perlin - WTF is a SAFT? Well it stands for Simple Agreement for Future Tokens. This is basically a pinky promise to deliver tokens when something is operational. Since it's "later" it skirts the acredited investor rule. They then ask people what they want to contribute. The people really do send ETH transactions, and are either also scammed or in on it. First one is for 1100 ETH. That's the only transaction he saw, and they said they'd collected 11K ETH so far, so this guy sends 10 ETH, all of his money, and he gets sent a Perlin token. Well it looks like it's a fake token that's been created to LOOK like Perlin. The token even was being held in a Binance wallet, but of course whoever made it could have sent it there. Perlin hasn't had their token generation yet. He brings that up and is instabanned from the group. Then he convinces them to let him back in, and they're doing another one for a token called Sovrin which also hasn't had a Token Gen. They scedule another sale, and he isn't there and gives some excuse. Miraculously no one else is there either so they decide to have it the next day. That day when he said he was low on funds he got banned from the chat. Reddit figured out who the guy was and he created his own subreddit called BinanceIEO List of scams - A Messari.io - B I saw that Cardano joined the Messari Disclosures Registry so it piqued my interest. They focus on transparency for these projects. They also have their own market cap numbers They have a methodolgy for prices and for supply numbers that is interesting. They use - Maximum, Diluted to 2050, Outstanding, Liquid, Ciruculating