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0:00 2012年英语专业四级听力 短文11:07 2012年英语专业四级听力 短文22:49 2012年英语专业四级听力 短文32012年英语专业四级听力 短文1If you are a resident, you will find it useful to open a bank account.居民在银行开户其实很有用。All the large banks have a network of breaches across the country, and all offer similar services.所有大型银行都有遍布全国的支行网络，都提供类似的服务。A visit to any one of them will be a friendly experience.去任何一个支行都能体验到友好的服务。However,to open an account, you have to be prepared to prove your identity in a number of ways.然而，要开户，你必须准备好以多种方式证明你的身份。You will find your passport useful, but the bank will also want to see some form of proof that you are living where you say you are.你会用到护照，但是银行也想要看到你能用某种形式证明你生活在某个地方。This can be proved by a housing rent book, a tax form, water or electricity bill for the property, as long as it is in your name.这可以通过房屋租赁书、税务表格、水电费账单来证明，只要是你本人的。In the bank and elsewhere, you may hear the term "utility bill", this simply refers to bills relating to the provision of services to your home, such as electricity, gas, water and telephone.在银行等地方，你可能会听到“费用单”这个词，它是指与家庭服务供应有关的账单，如电力、煤气、水和电话。There are other local facilities, such as post offices, where you can save your money and have access to affordable low cost loans.还有邮局等其他地方设施，你可以存钱，还可以获得便宜的低成本贷款。Where'd they exist in your local area?你所在的地方这些设施分布在哪里？Contact details can be obtained from the Citizens Advice Bureau.联络资料可从市民谘询处索取。2012年英语专业四级听力 短文2Life is very stressful nowadays, so it is useful for us to talk about how to cope with stress.现在人们的生活压力很大，所以讨论一下如何应对压力其实很有用。If you want to reduce some stress, you can reduce this by the word: s-t-r-e-s-s;that's stress.如果你想减轻压力，你可以用“s-t-r-e-s-s”的方法；就是压力这个词。Let's begin with the "s". "S" is that you can have the scheduling.我们先说说“s”。“S”是关于安排日程的。For example, you do not have to schedule too many things in your day, and if you feel you are too busy, you can cut out an activity or two.例如，你没必要在一天中安排太多的事情，如果你觉得自己太忙，可以减少一两个活动。And"t"is treat your body well, because experts say that exercise can reduce stress.“t”是善待身体，因为专家说运动可以减轻压力。And also if you eat healthy food, then your brain and your body get the nourishment they need.如果你能保持饮食健康，大脑和身体就可以得到所需的营养。The next letter is "r". "R" means relax.下一个字母是“r”。“R”是指放松。You can do an activity you enjoy or that relaxes you.你可以进行一项你喜欢或能让你放松的活动。Maybe you can read a book or learn a new hobby and even spend time with your pet.你可以读书或者学习新的爱好，甚至可以和宠物在一起玩。And that could make a difference.这可能会很有用。And the next letter is "e". "E" is about expectations.下一个字母是“e”。“E”是指期待。This means be realistic about yourself and other.这意味着对自己和他人的期待都要符合现实。So you can just do your best and do not try to be perfect.所以你可以尽你所能，不要试图做到完美。And do not expect others to be too.也不要期望别人完美。That will release and reduce a lot of stress for you and the people around you.这样可以减轻你和周围人的压力。And the next letter is "s". "S" stands for sleep. If you get agood night sleep, then it will keep your mind and your body in shape.下一个字母是“s”。S代表睡眠，如果你能睡个好觉，大脑和身体就会保持健康状态。And the last letter is "s" again, which means smile.最后一个字母又是“s”，意思是微笑。If you smile and have confidence, you will think in a more positive way.如果你微笑并且有自信，你会以一种更积极的方式思考问题。And then you will feel more comfortable when you're coping with the stress.面对压力时，你会感觉更舒服。2012年英语专业四级听力 短文3New words enter the English language all the time.新词汇一直源源不断地进入英语。In fact, English has always been in a state of evolution.事实上，英语一直处于进化的状态。And in recent years, more and more words and phrases have entered the language.近年来，越来越多的单词和短语进入了英语。But where do all these new words come from?但是这些新词是从哪里来的呢？Words come out of the culture that they represent and they describe.词汇来自于他们所表示和描述的文化。So if you've got a new development in medicine, for example, bird flu, then you'll get a new word coming out of that.所以如果医学上有了新进展，比如禽流感，那么我们就能从中得到一个新词汇。If there is a military conflict, that may well bring all sorts of new words to the fore.如果出现军事冲突，那很可能会出现各种各样的新词。Going back in time, the First and Second World Wars were times of great creativity of language because people from different countries met each other and exchanged their words and words developed from there.回望历史，两次世界大战期间，语言展现了其伟大的创造力，因为不同国家的人们相遇并交换了彼此的词汇，新词由此出现。So,words come from the playground.所以，词汇来源于运动场。They come from politics.词汇来源于政治。They come from any area of life, because every area of life is changing from day today.词汇来自生活的各个领域，因为生活的每个领域都在不断变化。And does English have more words than any other language?英语词汇是不是比其他语言多？It certainly has more than other European languages and probably more than any other language in the world.一定比其他欧洲语言词汇要多，而且可能比世界上任何其他语言都要多。English is put together from so many different bits.英语是由许多不同的部分拼凑而成的。Originally,it was a Germanic language.最初，它是日耳曼语。And then after the Norman conquest in 1066, there was enormous influx of French words.1066年诺曼征服之后，大量的法语词汇涌入。And it comes from a country, the United Kingdom, which was quite an expansive trading colonial power in the past.它是联合王国语言，而过去联合王国是一个非常庞大的贸易殖民大国。And all these have brought all sorts of other new words into the language.所有这些都催生了各种各样的新词。

In this episode you will:  Learn about how the Aphasia-Friendly Reading Approach was developed. Hear about the importance of actively engaging care partners in therapy through this storytelling approach. Learn the importance of celebrating stories and how to host your own version of a Waffle Night.   Katie Strong: Welcome to the Aphasia Access Aphasia Conversations Podcast. I'm Katie Strong, a  member of the Aphasia Access Podcast Working Group. I'm also a faculty member at Central Michigan University where I lead the Strong Story Lab. Aphasia Access strives to provide members with information, inspiration, and ideas that support their aphasia care through a variety of educational materials and resources. I'm today's host for an episode that will feature Harold Regier and Dr. Erin O'Bryan. We'll be talking about the Aphasia-Friendly Reading Approach that Harold developed for his wife, Rosella, who had aphasia and how Dr. O'Bryan took this approach into the lab to refine it for clinicians to use in sessions. Before we dive into the conversation, let me share a few details about our guests. First a bit about Harold. Harold R. Regier, B.S. Ed., BDiv. Theol., is a retired minister with a career path in programs addressing social justice issues. In retirement, his spouse, Rosella, had a stroke resulting in aphasia. His passion shifted to becoming an aphasia care partner focused on helping to recover language and communication skills. He is the author of “A Decade of Aphasia Therapy,” subtitled “Aphasia-Friendly Reading: A Technique for Oral Communication,” published in 2021.  Our second guest is Dr. Erin O'Bryan. Erin is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders at Wichita State University, in Wichita, Kansas. Her major research, teaching, and clinical interests focus on helping people with aphasia communicate through scripts, stories, and phrases and teaching students and care partners how to support communication. Dr. O'Bryan directs the Wichita Adult Language Lab whose current projects focus on supported storytelling and Melodic Intonation Therapy. Welcome Harold and Erin. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Erin O'Bryan: Thank you, Katie! I've been listening to Aphasia Access Podcasts for years, and so many of my heroes have been interviewed in this series. It is really an honor that you invited Harold and I to be on the podcast today! Katie Strong: I am so excited for our listeners to hear about how the Aphasia-Friendly Reading Approach was developed and expanded. This work is near and dear to my heart – particularly in this unique way of developing and telling stories. I feel compelled to disclose to our listeners that I am grateful to have been involved in this work as it was refined for clinical environments. So, I am going to come right out and say, this is my bias. Harold, I'm a big fan of yours and the Aphasia Friendly Reading Approach and of you Erin for how you brought this approach into the lab and studied it so that clinicians can use this approach. So, now let's get started! Harold, can you share a bit with us about how the Aphasia-Friendly Reading Approach came to be? Harold Reiger: Sure. Thank you so much, Dr. Strong, for the privilege of being here to share just a bit of our story. You know, Rosella and I would have celebrated our 65th wedding anniversary if she had stayed with us just a few weeks longer. We had a very long and very happy marriage. She used to kid me, “We've been together so long we know what the other person will say before he or she says it.” Well, actually, aphasia kind of shattered that theory. But maybe there was a little bit of that was true. Well, anyway, Rosella was a retired public-school teacher with part of her career also involving children's curriculum development. She led many workshops, was a storyteller, and was a frequent guest speaker. Communication and broad coalitions were a strong suit for her. So, aphasia, loss of language was a huge loss for her. Perhaps that sets the stage for working so hard to restore some major storytelling. But I'm sure this is the same kind of feeling that every person who is a care partner with the person with aphasia has. How did we discover a technique for storytelling through oral reading? Really, I think I just stumbled into it. The cues came from Rosella. She could say many words. She had a strong voice, but she did not put words together in a way that made it possible for a listener to understand what she meant to communicate. So, I was highly motivated, wishing there was a way to help her tell her stories. Looking back, I now can see three of what I call ‘indicators' that led me to the technique that I eventually called Aphasia-Friendly Reading. They were painting, reading, and church liturgy. So let me explain. Indicator number one, completely on her own, Rosella began to paint. Just shy of two years after her stroke, Rosella began to paint. She painted for four years. She painted 250 paintings. The choice of her subjects were all hers. Objects, scenery, flowers, roadside sightings, trips and vacations, past memories. And yes, stories, family stories, stories that she didn't have words to tell, but she could tell them with a brush. She gave every picture a title or caption, signed it, and dated it. And somehow she found those one, two, or three words to intelligibly, that is accurately, identify the picture that she had just painted. But after four years of painting those pictures, she put her paintbrush down, never to pick it up again. And yet I kept remembering that she was able to identify pictures accurately using those few words to explain what it was that she was telling with her pictures. But then indicator number two came, reading periodicals and books. She underlined periodicals with many circles, much underlining. For a long time, Rosella delved through as many as 40 or 50 books per month. She turned every page, but did she understand what she was reading? Frankly, I often wondered and doubted it. One day, Rosella was reading orally beside me, and I pressed my iPhone video button. Listen to just a few seconds of that reading. And while you listen, think of two questions. Could you understand what she was reading? What was the story that she was trying to tell? And secondly, do you think that Rosella was understanding what she was reading? So listen to that clip. Excerpt of Rosella reading from a book. You heard Rosella reading the story of she and her sister, Anna Grace, requesting radio station KNEX out of McPherson, Kansas to surprise their mother by playing it for her birthday. It was a song that the girls knew that their mother loved. And you heard her read those words, “I love those dear hearts and gentle people.” And then as she continued reading the lyrics of that song, she exclaimed, “Oh, Harold”, which was her way of saying how excited she was to recall that particular story. Now, that explanation, of course, was not in the book. Then there was a third indicator that I recognized, and that was liturgical reading. One day in church we were reading a call to worship displayed on the screen. We were reading responsibly with the leader reading the first line and the congregation reading the second line. I glanced to my side and was surprised to see Rosella reading with the congregation. Maybe it was only the first three or four words of the line, but she read these words accurately. A light went on in my mind. Might this be a hint of how to help Rosella participate in oral reading? Short sentences read with a co-reader who read every other line and written in an easy to follow format? And so I adapted various psalms into very short lines formatted for us to read responsively. I read the first line, she read the second. The result was amazing success. Let me just illustrate by us reading just a very short psalm for you. This is Psalm 150 that Rosella and I will read together. H: Praise the Lord! R: Praise God in his sanctuary. H: Praise God in his mighty firmament. R: Praise Him for his mighty deeds. H: Praise the Lord for his greatness. R: Praise him with the trumpet. H: Praise him with the lute and harp. R: Praise him with the dance. My thought then was, could we try to write other stories and read them in what I began to call Aphasia-Friendly Reading format and style? And so, I began in earnest to try to write other stories. Short sentences, familiar words, larger font. Each line considered a sentence, even if it was only one word. Label the first line H for Harold and the second indented line R for Rosella. As I started reading and continued to read every other line, this could set the tone, the rhythm, and the pattern for saying every word clearly. I thought it was time to try. And then I began to wonder, is there a setting that we could read stories to others? Could we create an audience in some way? When COVID hit, of course, I could not see Rosella in person anymore, for an entire year we were separated. And the only contact we had was FaceTime telephone calls. And those were really a disaster because we found it very difficult to communicate with each other when Roselle was not able to understand me and I wasn't able to understand her, except when we read Aphasia-Friendly stories. And so, I wrote many stories during that year. And we read those stories then as our connection during our FaceTime calls. And somehow we were able to survive COVID. But it was after COVID then that we were able to again get back together occasionally. And I would bring her back to my apartment. And there I would invite friends, usually a couple or two individuals to come over and I would serve waffles. I'm not a kitchen person, but I could make waffles. So, we'd have a simple meal, a simple supper that we could visit with each other and talk about anything that we would like. And Rosella almost always simply said, “I remember exactly”. Because as others told stories that she was familiar with, she could comment that way. Otherwise, her conversation skills were not there. So that was our first hour that we would spend together simply informally visiting with each other. And the second hour that we spent together, we would go to what I would call “my theater,” our living room with a 50-inch television. And there we could read Aphasia-Friendly stories. I would stream the story to the television set. I would have them formatted so that there would be an H for Harold, an R for Rosella, and we would read the story so that the folks who were listening and watching could see the story as well as hear the story. And if we made any mistakes, they could make the corrections in their own mind. There was a way that she was able to, again, participate. It's worth telling. But there was one waffle evening when she turned to me, and said, “China”. I knew she had a story in mind, but her look said, “you tell it. I can't do it.” And so, I did. It was a story about a cracked tea cup And so I decided certainly next Waffle Night we need to let her help tell that story of the cracked tea cup. Here is that story. Cracked Tea Cup. H: This is as story of a cracked tea cup. R: Harold and I were youth sponsors. H: Rose was one of the youth. R: Winifred was her mother. H: She invited me to her home. R: “Thank you,” she said. H: “Thank you for being Rose's sponsor.” R: We visited. H: Before leaving, she said R: “Let me pray for you.” H: It was a pray of blessing… R: …for our work in Mississippi. H: Then she added, R: “Wait!” H: “I have something for you.” R: She got a tea cup. H: Erland brought it to me from China. R: It's cracked. H: Put it in your china cupboard. R: You'll never use it. H: “But you'll remember be when you see it.” R: Sixty years are gone. H: This tea cup is still in my china cupboard. R: And I remember Winifred. H: It reminds me R: Of the grace, H: Of the affirmation, R: Of blessing, H: Of the seminary president's wife.   And so those Waffle Nights became the favorite parts of our week when we could spend time with friends and Rosella could be part of the conversation by reading stories together with me. Katie Strong: So beautiful! This is really just a fabulous way of having such a natural thing, a shared meal, a celebration to share stories. And it sounds like everybody enjoyed Waffle Nights. So, thank you for sharing, Harold. Erin, I was wondering if come into the conversation a bit more and tell us how you got involved with Harold and the Aphasia-Friendly Reading Approach? Erin O'Bryan: Thank you, Katie. Even though I've heard Harold's story so many times, I still get teary every time I hear him talk about their year of not being able to see each other during COVID and the Waffle Nights that were just so wonderful. So, I met Harold in 2019 when I first became an Assistant Professor after 10 years of working as an SLP in healthcare. And Wichita State already had a weekly aphasia group, and I couldn't wait to meet the members. So, I went to aphasia group and there I met all of the care partners in the observation room and Harold showed me a video of him and Rosella reading a story together. I had been watching Rosella in the aphasia group and I'd seen that most of her utterances were short one- to two-word phrases and that much of her communication was nonverbal. But then in the video, she was reading full sentences aloud, taking turns with Harold. And what really struck me was that she was so motivated and happy to read the story. I was so impressed. Harold asked me, “Do you think that other people with aphasia could benefit from doing this?” So many thoughts were running through my mind as we were having this conversation. Earlier in 2019, I had visited Audrey Holland, who was one of my mentors when I was in grad school at University of Arizona. And we'd actually set up this meeting through an online Scrabble chat. She invited me to her home. Katie Strong: How very ‘Audrey'. Erin O'Bryan: Yes, it was lovely. And I got to visit her with all her kitty cats. So, I asked her advice because I was applying for an Assistant Professor position after 10 years of working in health care. And I remember that she was so excited about her speechpathology.com video series and the related book that she was working on with Roberta Elman that she liked to call the Social Imperative of the LPAA, which I believe is the subtitle of that book. And Katie, I think you were a part of both the video series and the book. Katie Strong: I was, yes. Erin O'Bryan:  Well, Audrey just loved that. She was so excited about that, and she told me to learn everything I could about the LPAA. And she said, “I must join Aphasia Access.” She said, “that's where all the important work is happening.” So that year I listened to loads of Aphasia Access podcasts, and I got very familiar with the Chapey and Colleagues LPAA Values chapter. So then as I'm sitting there talking to Harold, I'm thinking about the LPAA value, everyone affected by aphasia is entitled to service. So, I mean, who is affected more than a spouse? So definitely I was thinking about having the care partner being involved seemed like a wonderful thing. And I was also thinking that Harold and Rosella's approach shared so many similarities with Script Training, which I have loved and have been using in healthcare care since grad school. And there also are similarities with ORLA and Multiple Oral Rereading. And all of these are evidence-based treatment approaches. So, I felt pretty confident that Aphasia-Friendly Reading could be a very valuable intervention. So, I said to Harold, “I'd like to try using your approach with other people with aphasia and their care partners in our clinic”. And Harold was happy for us to try it. Katie Strong: I love that. I love that. And just for our listeners, we'll put some links and references in the show notes for some of the approaches like ORLA and Script Training that Erin has mentioned in addition to Harold's book and some other some other resources too. Erin O'Bryan: Yes, thank you, Katie. Those are all wonderful resources for people to be looking at. So, my grad students and I started a pilot study with a woman with aphasia and her husband. And they were actually friends of Harold and Rosella's from their aphasia group. We use the pseudonyms Cora and Dave when we describe them in our papers. It became clear that we needed to make a few adaptations to Harold's approach for use in the clinic. For one thing, I wanted the person with aphasia to have the largest role in selecting the story topic and deciding what she wanted to say. For our first session, we asked Cora and Dave to bring ideas for a story that Cora wanted to tell. And we also suggested they consider bringing some related photos. In our first session, Cora, Dave, my grad student, Addison, and I all sat around the table and together we brainstormed about the story. Cora wanted it to be about a Caribbean cruise that she and Dave had gone on. She brought photos from that trip. Dave helped with supplying names and information about places that Cora wanted to talk about. Places from their shore excursions, such as having their picture taken with a donkey in St. Thomas and visiting the Bomba Shack on the island of Tortola. We got Cora's feedback on every line that was proposed, fine-tuning the story until Cora liked every line. And we also adjusted some of the lines to make them easier for her to say. So once Cora and Dave were happy with the story, we helped them practice during our sessions, one hour per week with my grad student, Addison and I at the clinic. And we gave a printout of the story and a practice log to record notes about their home practice. In this first pilot project, Cora and Dave practiced their story for eight sessions until Cora said she was ready to plan their story sharing celebration. Then they shared their story with their friends in aphasia group. And the clinicians and the other people with aphasia in the room were just amazed. And other people in the aphasia group said, “I want to do that!” So, after two people with aphasia and their care partners did Aphasia-Friendly Reading projects, I wrote a manuscript reporting the pilot results. And Katie, I had seen online that you were an editor of Perspectives at the time. So, I emailed you my manuscript and asked if it was appropriate for Perspectives. And you emailed me back and said, “let's meet online and talk about it.” I was so delighted that you were interested in my project. You suggested that I consider exploring the value of the intervention by interviewing the participants. And I didn't know anything about qualitative research. But, Katie, you helped me write great interview questions for the care partners. And you helped me learn thematic analysis so we could find the themes in the care partner's quotes. And so, after learning from you, I have come to love the thematic analysis process. I really think it leads to deep listening. What we learned from the interviews is that the care partners felt empowered by being included in the intervention and the care partners really valued the collaborative nature of the storytelling project and especially that the intervention was so different than the previous therapy experiences that they had had because it was person-centered, it was fun, and they got to share their story with other people in their lives. So, then the three of us, Harold, Katie, and I wrote our first article about Aphasia-Friendly Reading and it's published in Aphasiology and the title is, “I wasn't just sitting there”: Empowering care partners through the Aphasia-Friendly Reading Approach. And then in 2023, the three of us went to Boston and presented it at ASHA. Katie Strong: Thanks for sharing that, Erin. You know, I think the experience of the care partners saying that therapy was fun important to note. And Harold has mentioned that Rosella thought it was fun, and the other participants thought it was fun. And I guess I just want to bring home that hard work can, can still be fun or therapy can be fun. And especially when it comes from the person with aphasia and their care partners. The topics are generated by the client and care partner. They're sharing things that are really important to them that have happened in their past. I love it. Erin O'Bryan: And one of the care partners even said that they learned better when it was fun. Katie Strong: I love it. Fantastic. Erin, I was wondering if you could share some tips for clinicians who might be listening that are thinking about how they might be able to incorporate this Aphasia-Friendly Reading Approach into their practice. Erin O'Bryan: Thank you for asking, Katie. So, in the past year, you and I have been talking about how we want to make it as easy as possible for clinicians to use our storytelling approaches in regular clinical settings, outside of research. And we really want clinicians to realize that it takes almost no time to prep for a person-centered storytelling session. You just have to go into the session ready to actively listen to what the person with aphasia wants to say. I love the acronym PULSE that you and Barbara Shadden wrote about in your paper, The Power of Story and Identity Renegotiation. And then in our paper, we reviewed PULSE again. So just for our listeners, I'm going to go through it real quickly because I think these are great things for clinicians to keep in mind. The P in pulse is for partnerships, partnering with the person with aphasia. And in the case of Aphasia-Friendly Reading, the clinician partnering with the care partner also. The U in pulse is for uniqueness. So, the clinician should be prepared to help the person with aphasia tell their unique story. The L is for listening. The clinician needs to learn how to really listen. And S is for supporting the person with aphasia in telling their stories. For example, using communication ramps in Supported Conversation for Adults with Aphasia strategies to support communication. And then finally, the E impulse is for explore. So as a clinician, be ready to go off-road with your client to explore the story that they want to share. And as a clinician, know that it's okay, even it's great for you to do that. Katie Strong: I love that. I love that. Erin, I guess that leads us into sharing that we do have a paper that came out in 2024 called Person Centered Stories on the Main Stage in Intervention, which highlights examples from three different story projects, including Aphasia-Friendly Reading. So, we'll link that to the show notes as well. Erin O'Bryan: Yes, and this year at ASHA 2024, Katie, you and I are going to be also giving a talk about this work called Elevating Person-Centered Stories to the Main Stage in Aphasia Intervention. And we are looking forward to presenting this work hopefully to an audience of clinicians. Katie Strong: Yes, yes, we hope to see folks in Seattle for sure. Well, I want to bring back both Harold and Erin into this conversation. And I think one of the things that I've recognized through this collaboration that you and Harold and Rosella and later on I got to be a part of is that we really are all better together. And I was hoping each of you could take a moment to share how this work has changed your thinking or maybe some ideas about sharing with others about what you've learned from this collaboration. Harold Regier: Well, for me, one of the things that I think I really learned from this is that we care partners need the therapist and the therapist needs us care partners. And there are more ways in which we can work together than perhaps sometimes we have done it when we have just been sitting there. And so, I really, I'm so pleased to be able to feel that that we care partners are more involved or can be more involved in the whole therapy process than what so often we have been. But I think that one of the things that the therapist needs to help us understand is when is it appropriate for us to be part of the process and when it is not appropriate for us to be part of the part process. It's not a matter of us being there all the time and sometimes being in the way. So, I think that kind of very frank candid conversation with us would help us understand that. And I certainly understood better that that the role of the care partner in terms of helping the person with aphasia be able to communicate better is very different from the role of the therapist. I never tried to be the person who was the teacher, trying to let Rosella know how she should do better and how we might be able to improve our reading. We just did it and it came out the way it came out. But then when I see how Erin was working with other clients and the persons with aphasia and the family members together identified the stories that they were interested in putting together, and the therapist helped put that together into words that they then could repeat or share together and in a storyline, that that is the place where I think we can be so much more collaborative with the therapist in a process like that. So I just always was telling myself, “Don't be a therapist. Don't be a teacher. Don't try to say, well, you can do better than that. Just simply do what is natural.” And then I wish that the therapist would take the other role and really work hard to help the person with aphasia do better with their reading and their performance. We didn't do our reading for production. We did it for fun, as you were saying earlier. And then we did it because we wanted to share that fun and that experience with others. And that was so very, very satisfying for us. Those are some of the thoughts that have come to me in terms of the relationship between therapist and care partner. Katie Strong: Thanks Harold. Yeah, Erin, any thoughts? Erin O'Bryan: I've learned so much from this collaboration. From Harold, I learned what a difference it makes when a care partner puts so much time and thought into supporting their partner with aphasia's communication and her quality of life. Also I've seen how much Harold has done and I hope that me you know as a busy professor stopping and taking the time to tell him that I saw so much value in what he was doing at home with Rosella reading those videos together. I hope that this helped him realize that it was valuable to share. And I'm thrilled to say that Harold has been going around the state of Kansas giving talks about aphasia at colleges and senior living facilities. He's doing so much and I love to see that. And from collaborating with you, Katie, I've learned the importance of making the story sharing a really beautiful celebration honoring the person with aphasia and you know bringing special things like favorite food treats, beverages, flowers, and especially inviting the people that are important to the person with aphasia. We've now had five or six story sharing celebrations. It seems like everyone is more beautiful than the last. I've learned so much about that. And I've also learned that qualitative research helps me capture the meaningfulness of these projects and the meaningfulness as we're working with people with aphasia and that this research can be so fun and rewarding. Katie Strong: I love that. I love that. As I was listening to you, Erin, respond to Harold, it just sounds like together we can validate one another. The work that you're doing, you were doing with Rosella, Harold is very validating and then Erin bringing it into the lab to test it out and it's all beautiful. It's, it really is. And I guess as I reflect on this thought about what I've learned is to reiterate, Erin, something you said, that listening to family members or care partners and the ideas that they have to engage their loved ones in communication activities are so powerful and taking that time even if you are busy to listen and think and validate and see how that connects to the existing evidence-based literature. I think is really powerful. But I also think that there's this collaboration and the combination of care partners and clinicians and researchers. And of course, the person with aphasia at the center of all of that, making a powerful team to develop innovative methods of storytelling is really one of my big takeaways from all of this. Erin O'Bryan: Yes, that's wonderful. Harold Regier: I would like to give kudos to the therapists who worked with Rosella over the many, many years. Ten years of aphasia therapy, four of which were one-on-one, six of which were part of a support therapy group. Those therapists were such relational people, such encouraging people, and also knew the techniques that work in therapy. So, I wanted to say that those years were very, very meaningful, very, very helpful, and helped us with the day-to-day kind of living with hope, with the expectations that things can continue to get better. Katie Strong: Thank you, Harold. Yeah. Erin, any other thoughts as we wrap this up today? Erin O'Bryan: Well, I just wanted to say that I would never recommend that all intervention involve the care partner because I understand that it's good for the person with aphasia to get one-on-one time with the clinician. But don't forget that that care partner is often with the person with aphasia almost 24/7 and we may only see them one or two hours a week. So, it's so important that we do more to really educate the care partner about how to acknowledge the competence of the person with aphasia and really how to support their communication. So that's why I really want us to do more with in involving the care partner and in intervention. So, I'll get off my soapbox. Thank you, Katie, for letting us share about this project that I love. Katie Strong: I'm so delighted that we could have this time together today. Harold, thank you for your generosity and sharing your ideas and Rosella's stories with us and this beautiful work of Aphasia-Friendly Reading and Erin for your work in the lab and bringing it to the clinic. On behalf of Aphasia Access, thank you for listening. For references and resources mentioned in today's show, please see our show notes. They're available on our website, www.aphasiaaccess.org. There you can also become a member of our organization, browse our growing library of materials, and find out about the Aphasia Access Academy. If you have an idea for a future podcast episode, email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org. For Aphasia Access Conversations, I'm Katie Strong. Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access. Contact information for Guests – Harold Regier hrregier@cox.net  Erin O'Bryan, PhD., CCC-SLP erin.obryan@wichita.edu  Resources Aphasia Institute's Introduction to Supported Conversation for Adults with Aphasia (SCA™) eLearning. https://www.aphasia.ca/health-care-providers/education-training/online-options/ Chapey, R., Duchan, J. F., Elman, R. J., Garcia, L. J., Kagan, A., Lyon, J. G., & Simmons-Mackie, N. (2000).Life Participation Approach to Aphasia: A statement of values for the future. The ASHA Leader, 5(3). https://doi.org/10.1044/leader.FTR.05032000.4 Cherney, L. R. (2010). Oral reading for language in aphasia: Impact of aphasia severity oncross-modal outcomes in chronic nonfluent aphasia. Seminars in Speech and Language, 31, 42–51. https://doi.org/10.1055/s-0029-1244952 Cherney, L. Babbitt, E., Oldani, J., & Semik, P. (2005). Efficacy of repeated choral reading for individuals with chronic nonfluent aphasia. [Clinical Aphasiology Paper]  http://aphasiology.pitt.edu/1548/  Kaye, R., & Cherney, L. R. (2016). Script templates: A practical approach to script training in aphasia. Topics in Language Disorders, 36(2), 136–153. https://doi.org/10.1097/2FTLD.0000000000000086 O'Bryan, E. L., Regier, H. R., & Strong, K. A. (2023). “I wasn't just sitting there”: Empowering care partners through the Aphasia-Friendly Reading approach. Aphasiology. https://doi.org/10.1080/02687038.2023.2272956 O'Bryan, E. L., & Strong, K. A. (2024). Person-centered stories on the main stage in intervention: Case examples from the My Story Project, Aphasia! This Is Our World, and Aphasia-Friendly Reading. Perspectives of the ASHA Special Interest Groups. https://pubs.asha.org/doi/10.1044/2024_PERSP-23-00272 Regier, H. (2021). A Decade of Aphasia Therapy: Aphasia-Friendly Reading: A Technique for Oral Communication. Independently published Available on Amazon Strong, K. A. & Shadden, B. B. (2020). Stories at the Heart of Life Participation: Both the Telling and Listening Matter. Chapter 5. In A. L. Holland & R. J. Elman (Eds.) Neurogenic communication disorders and the Life Participation Approach: The social imperative in supporting individuals and families (pp. 105-130) Plural Publishing. Strong, K. A & Shadden, B. B. (2020). The power of story in identity renegotiation: Clinical approaches to supporting persons living with aphasia. ASHA Perspectives, SIG 2, 5, 371-383. https://pubs.asha.org/doi/pdf/10.1044/2019_PERSP-19-00145 Youmans, G., Holland, A., Munoz, M. L., & Bourgeois, M. (2005). Script training and automaticity in two individuals with aphasia. Aphasiology, 19(3/4/5), 435–450. https://doi.org/10.1080/02687030444000877

This week I've got the wonderful Victor Tadashi Suarez on the program to talk about this work on the explosive documentary "Quiet on Set". Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠You can now support Frame & Reference directly on Patreon!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

This week I'm pleased to have Lucas Joseph on to talk about the work he did bringing Sister Nancy's story to life in the film "Bam Bam" which recently premiered at Tribeca. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠You can now support Frame & Reference directly on Patreon!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

This week we've got the wonderful Bradford Lipson here to talk about his work on Hulu's "Prom Dates", as well as shooting "House", the HD revolution, his time as a gaffer, and a bunch more! Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R ⁠⁠⁠⁠You can now support Frame & Reference directly on Patreon!⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Episode 150! What a journey it's been so far. To celebrate, I went to visit my friend and first guest of the pod Johnny Derango to be educated on some top-shelf bourbons and talk about his new film Unsung Hero. It's double the length of a normal episode and as such, double the fun! Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R ⁠⁠⁠You can now support Frame & Reference directly on Patreon!⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Huzzah! This week on the pod we've got Gary Baum, ASC here to talk about his work on the Frasier reboot, which is fascinating because he's worked almost exclusively on some of the best multi-cam shows ever made and I never really talk to multi-cam folks so it's very educational, at least for me. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R ⁠⁠You can now support Frame & Reference directly on Patreon!⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Sorry for the delay (I was traveling for work) but this week we're lucky enough to have Alicia Robbins on the program to talk about her work on Bridgerton Season 3! Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R ⁠You can now support Frame & Reference directly on Patreon!⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

For the last few years, an increasing number of agents have been messaging me with questions about their career options and in particular, the importance of the 'brand' they work with.In the last ten years, the steady rise of cloud-based real estate corporations has challenged the traditional model of salespeople being employed by a real estate company working out of a brick-and-mortar office.This new digitally remote model has not only allowed agents to establish and promote their own personal brand but also enjoy a greater slice of the commission pie.These days, cloud-based digital brands provide much of the heavy lifting in terms of back-office support for their member agents including trust accounting (where laws call for that) and supplying an ever-widening range of tech tools like coaching, mentoring and training, marketing platforms, CRMs and lead generation workstations leaving the agent to focus on the dollar-productive activities of getting in front of more sellers and doing more deals.This recent visit back to Victoria Australia to spend time with friends and family gave me the opportunity to catch up with my brother Tim and we decided to record a couple of interviews for the show.Tim is something of a brand guru. Today he consults to a list of private clients but his former career path saw him deeply involved with brands like Nike, Mattel, and Krispy Kreme.In 2022 he published his personal branding strategies and success formulas in a book titled 'YourAmazing Brand Story'In this episode, Tim and I get nicely into the weeds of effective branding and how agents can best reach out to potential clients in their community by telling their brand story and standing out in a 'sea' of other agents and making emotional connections by deciding then telling their brand story.There' some really valuable points in this short session. Grab your journal for the good bits. Enjoy! R

It can be really painful when your husband is looking at his phone and not paying attention to you. But the way that you respond, you have 100% control over that. When you learn that you can act charitably even when your husband is playing games on his phone, you are going to feel so powerful as a Catholic mom. This is what the sainthood journey looks like.  Unintentional Model C: Husband looking at his phone T: He doesn't care about me. F: Unloved A: Snippy with husband, snippy with kids, clean the house angrily, think of all the other ways he doesn't care for you, act childishly, eating cookies/drinking wine/scrolling on your phone R: You don't care about him. You don't care about yourself. Intentional Model C: husband looking at his phone T: I wonder what's going on with him. F: Charity/Curiosity A: Give him space, ask him later how he's doing, check in with what your needs really are, serve your own needs, serve the kids. R: You wonder what's going on with him. You wonder what's going on with yourself. 

Asketic co Founder Miķelis Baštiks talking with Head of “Printful” Marketing Raitis Puriņš, about growing a marketing team, building and monetizing your audience.M: Much has already been said about the growth of Printful, but I find your growth as the Marketing Team Leader even more interesting. You started from a very small team of five, now you are more than 100. There are many things to unpack. How to lead a team of five and then switch to a much larger team is a conversation of its own. But how has the daily life changed for you personally? I don't know how much you have reflected upon it yourself, but it would be interesting to hear.R: Since day one my position was the Head of Marketing Unit at Printful, however, when you have a team of five, you're not really a manager. The whole office consisted of 30 or so employees, I was number 35. You're not a manager, you learn to become one afterwards. In the beginning you're thrown into unknown waters and you try to swim out. Along the way you learn to become a manager. The first and most difficult realization is the ability to delegate and trust others. When you really become a manager, you think, okay, this person can do this instead of me. He might do it slower at first or take a different approach, but he will catch on. At first, I always put 100% trust into a person when I give a task. It's not like I let them sink or swim, instead I become a beacon that provides help and checks in to see if he's on the right track. Afterwards he has to grow by himself and you witness the progress. Trust is something to be applied to your own colleagues. M: How does it look in daily life? Do you have daily, weekly check-ins? It's clear you have to trust and provide freedom, but there has to be some accountability. Where have you found the balance?R: We have a framework, at the company there's a presentation “How not to die at Printful”. The idea is that it's better to manage a team of fifty or a project, since the company is so big and one project encompasses a large amount of people. There are a few ways you can look at that. One framework provides that every person has its own goal that he has come here to do and he has to achieve in 3 months, 6 months. He knows what he has to complete. One step further, everyone has a number that drives him. The goal of my team could be revenue. You can influence any team, when you set them a number that they are responsible for. If it's the amount of new clients in Australia, then in becomes your drive and all your activities within the project are focused on that. You never come and talk randomly; you always focus on your goal. Managers don't have to keep everything on their mind - it's all written down, you just check in and see whether your team is on the right track.M: There are so many teams. If one team learns something or tests something, are there any systems for not making the same mistakes twice? Is there a way to transfer the know-how of one team to another when there are so many?R: We provide a blueprint or a framework of previous successful approaches, so you don't have to do your own trial and error; instead you have an outline for your new project. In a rapidly growing company, the only constant is change. You have to be okay with facing changes. Not just because you feel like it, but with purpose to be able to work better. You can't lead a team otherwise, whether those are 5 people or 100. Your manager can change or something else. I know that even I have to constantly keep learning. The rules keep changing, and marketing changes too. I actually like it, the discomfort of not knowing something. No one taught me at school how to lead a marketing team of 100 people. If someone knows such school, let me know. Otherwise you just do you best.M: Of course you learn a lot of things along the way, but can you identify a few things that have helped you on the journey from a single digit team to a three digit team. How did your life look before and how does it look now?R: The main thing that I also remind my project colleagues is that you have to ensure you're your partners share accountability for what you are working on. Another thing I remind my team is that there's no such thing as over-communication, especially internal over-communication. We previously had a situation when the IT team came to me and said that an e-mail should be sent out about an update. Okay, when are you going to launch it? Yesterday. So you were kept out of the loop, because it was assumed that you could do this very quickly anyways. It's important to ensure accountability so that you are aware about a project from day one and can contribute. We also have a huge client support team, more than 200 people globally. The company has to ensure constant internal communication about what you're going to do and what projects are happening, the communication is needed above all. The bigger the team gets, the more important it becomes.M: You once mentioned personal growth and how you sometimes write to marketing managers of big companies to ask something, and most of the time you actually receive answers. Is it something you would do in other areas? Meaning, proactively apply the example of a predecessor. And those times when you have received an answer, what have you learned from your predecessors in different companies, but in the same category or position?R: I have never studied marketing, I know almost no theory, and therefore all I've learned comes from other colleagues, also from my previous workplaces. I don't even remember who gave me the idea that you need a mentor. It's less about learning. When teams are of similar size, we switch charts. It was one of my challenges when my team reached 50 members. Okay, I need a structure for scaling or I will die and won't be able to manage it all. You find out what each team is doing, why it's so large, what works, what doesn't. Secondly, you switch agencies and tools. That allows you to adapt it to yourself. I've also joined several groups, there's a DGMG community for B2B marketing. You can ask your question to the crowd or just search for account based marketing, which isn't a well-known term in Latvia. I don't even know who I could ask that in Latvia. This allows you to gain more from real people who have done this, instead from a blog post, where you don't know if this information has been used in practice.M: What else has helped you to learn and grow along the way? This is a cool example of reaching out and learning from the experience of others. But is there anything else?R: Experiments, for example. Often we don't know if something would work and get good results. You just try and see whether it would work. You learn from mistakes. There are projects from last year where I have lost more than 100 000 dollars, without bringing any gain to the company. But I know I have spent several millions that have benefitted us.M: If you could go get coffee with three marketing people from around the world, who would they be?R: I'm more interested in branding right now. I would like to understand performance checks, I like to measure all technical things. If you're spending a lot of money for Super Bowl ads, you need a good justification for that and need to know how to do it correctly. From the branding point of view, my favourite is Coca-Cola. It's the reason why Santa Claus is wearing a red suit. Amazing! Also Apple. The product plays a big part of it, but they're also doing cool things with the brand.M: If you're more interested in branding now, could you unpack the topics that you're interested in?R: Many say that brand comes from the management. At Printful, the management is me. If I want to invest a bigger team, resources or money in this, then I need strong arguments for why we're going to do this. We'll see the results after three, four years, so why do we need to invest a large amount of money, since the market is huge. I still can't do this. It's not like we don't have a brand. The brand is everything that the company has done all these years. But I'm still missing something for us to scale and do it correctly. The right people, the right team? I don't know.M: You said there are 8 regions. Is the brand the same everywhere or do you build it differently for each region?R: We don't think about branding in each region that much, we like the framework “jobs to be done”. We try to find a person who we can help in achieving what he wants.M: Can you tell me more about the framework “jobs to be done”? How do you implement it in practice?R: First, you want to create an e-commerce shop, maybe you have an Instagram following you want to sell to or an existing business, or you want to create a merch line. Second, you want to order something for yourself. We enable you to do that easily, but you need to find answers to many questions. Who will you sell the shirt to? Do you have a design to print? How will you integrate it? For how much will you sell? Then you have to bring people to the website to buy something. A side-product from all this is that we educate clients. The marketing team is teaching others about marketing. All our resources are directed this way. It's much more beneficial to think about the person's dream than to think about benefitting from them driving a BWM. That's why we're very focused on this work. M: You have mentioned content marketing as one of the things you're doing. Do you still think it's working? When looking at the marketing landscape, do you see other things to focus on in the future? R: Content marketing is everywhere, including what we're doing. It's something you polish and put out. Content marketing can be measured in many different ways. The best effect is when any text that we publish in a blog or on website gets indexed on Google. That enables you to first find Printful in organic results just by searching. In content marketing you also create your image. I, by being in podcasts, am creating an image of being an expert on some topic, which makes people want to talk to me. It's similar for companies. If you create content about something, people will have an opinion about you, which goes along with branding. Okay, they know about this thing, probably I should work with them to ensure quality. You just have to create content, otherwise you won't understand what you have to do here. The idea of starting an e-commerce shop is great, but there a lot of ways to do it. The content helps us guide the creator through this tunnel towards a shop and making sales. M: What would be a go-to for potential clients who would like to create a new brand to be sold through Printful and create their content marketing?R: You have to build an audience. I don't have many examples nor experience, but many successful examples show that you can, for example, grow an Instagram account for dog-lovers and monetize it. You need a data base. You can also build hype by making an e-mail list, because you have to start somewhere, e-mail can't be your main channel. You can't send to some list, it has to be legal. The next channels are channels based on captured interest. From paid channels I can mention Google, which allows you to be found as an interesting author through searching. Then it's about whether the content on the website is enough. You create and all the elements mix together. It's hard to name one. Everything is organic game. It won't happen in one day. You'll see the results in the next few months. It's a long-term work.M: Printful grew very quickly, in just a couple of years. Was it a coincidence of showing up in the right time with the right product? Or was it the skill? I wonder if another company from a different category could duplicate what you did to grow five times or ten times quicker as they would otherwise?R: One mould that we have is “solve your problem”. Before Printful, there was Startup Vitamins, which still sells motivational posters. We needed them, because the offices of Draugiem.lv needed cool posters. Every cool office had those, so we needed them too. Didn't have them, so we designed some and started to sell. We did okay overall. We mostly printed posters, so we started to think about t-shirts and other things. I started searching for someone who could do it on demand, because we didn't know if they would sell. This niche turned out to be quite empty, so we decided to take it. Because again, what we're doing – we're solving our problem. The solution is so simple. In the end we printed our shirts, but it was planned out to be as fast and efficient as possible and with less costs.M: Do you feel a difference between the environments of Asia, Europe and North America when it comes to your clients?R: We haven't really delved into that. There might reasons why one is more successful and one isn't, but there aren't any cardinal differences. These reasons are mostly general. In japan, in order to switch your full-time job you need a special reason. In USA, side-hustling is very typical, you need to have an extra job to survive. You can drive an Uber or create an e-commerce shop. While in Germany and Scandinavia, you don't have such motivation. If you're happy with your job, you just have a beer and rest in your free time. You have other reasons for using Printful. In Germany, you need trust badges on your website for them to believe you're legit. There are some specifics, but it's not mainstream and isn't affecting much. We adapt.M: When you talked about brand development and marketing, one of the ways to grow a brand is word-of-mouth. One of your clients has successfully built his business. I think you mentioned that your tagline is “be your own boss”. This one successful person tells it to someone else, who also finds courage to try. For a company as big as yours, is such word-of-mouth still an important channel and tool?R: 100% yes! We might be big in Latvia, but the niche we can fill is still very small. How many e-commerce people in the world would sell printed goods and know about Printful? Not many. So this requires a constant drive. Social media stars rise every day nowadays, and they have an audience that can be reached more easily than ever, therefore it is important. The best approach is to be good at what you do. There's a guy who did a built-in kitchen for me. I have recommended him to at least 7 people, just because I'm satisfied with his job. If someone has a need, I will recommend him. And so it continues. It's the same for a company. It just happens in a bigger scale. When there's a chance to make a recommendation and someone has had good experience with you, he will recommend you, because it's something new he hasn't seen before. They become brand ambassadors. You don't pay them, you can only motivate them to do this more.M: This big trend of “creative economy” goes hand in hand with what you are doing with building an audience. MrBeast just launched his chocolate brand, which is super successful. He has built an enormous audience on YouTube, he launches one product after another. He has a chocolate or snack company. When you look at this category and also what you're doing with personalization and enabling people to be their own boss, do you see how this category develops and how big is the potential?R: That's one of the reasons why us too are developing and growing. Building an audience nowadays is much easier than it was twenty years ago. You can use the thing you have created – video, music, design –to captivate this person who wants to be associated with you, and, brutally speaking, you can monetize it. The ultimate goal is business. You create an audience and monetize it. One of my favourite examples recently are musicians. Musicians inspire passion in people. You follow them. If you like the music, you go to concerts and are ready to spend money. There are a lot of music bands, any one of them can start offering their merch.M: You've experienced an amazing and quick growth during the last five years. Do you have a vision for the following five years?R: We spend such a big part of life working. But in the end you work in order to be able to rest and live. The one thing on my plan is that I need more vacation days. If you work so much, you need time for resting, enjoy the fruits of your labour, spend time with family. There is still a lot of potential in Printful for development so you don't get bored. At some point I will address that too. M: What helped you to overcome the desire to do everything by yourself? I think that a lot of practical people are stuck in this bottleneck and are not ready to release the control.R: For example, if you have to send an e-mail, we agree on a period for doing it. Let's say, I will do it by Friday, but we agree that you will send me the contents by Thursday. If you are aware of the time period when it will happen and get this information, then you don't have to worry whether everything will be done on time. You just get a message that this is done. This has to be agreed upon. Then you can be sure that this person will check in with you that the text is ready, and on Friday you can confirm that everything is done. There have been occasions when I start writing e-mails and then have to edit this and that. When you start to delegate, the thing that you're afraid of is that something won't be done at all or in the quality you want. You just have to introduce these middle points. And any of these points can have a deadline. This way you can free your mind, because the computer will notify you at the right time. And you do the same thing with your team. You just write things down, you don't try to keep 10 things in mind. You say, this is our structure, these are the tasks, and this is the next step. By this time you have to do the following. If not, then you can start to micro-manage something else. That's where the trust comes from, just go through the game rules.M: Thank you.R: Cool, thank you.Raitis Puriņšhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/raitispurins/?originalSubdomain=lvhttps://www.printful.com/Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

Welcome back to Powering Your Retirement Radio. I am Dan Leonard your host. In the last episode on Top 10 Tax Facts, you should know, I got a fair amount of downloads and got more comments than normal. In this episode, I thought I address how to read your tax return. As a financial advisor, I get asked, Why do you need to see my tax return? When I ask for documents. As a tax preparer, I get a different question, did I give you everything? The answer to this is how should I know? Did you fill out the tax organizer completely? Which is usually followed up with I have to? Yes, if you want me to know for sure. Before you turn in your documents to your tax preparer, pull out your prior year's return. It will tell you if you have forgotten anything. I need to make a confession, prior to becoming an Enrolled Agent and starting to prepare returns for clients, I was a horrible tax client. I didn't fill out organizers, I never was sure I had all my documents. So, this episode reminds me of how I have learned to organize tax documents. I want to walk you through your 1040 form which will tell you what documents you should have.  If you want extra credit print out Form 1040 and take some notes. How to read a tax return On the top half of page one, you have the following Filing Status Address Crypto Question - This is important. Standard Deduction Dependants  All are straightforward. As Preparer, I need to know about your relationship status, where you reside, if you own any cryptocurrency, if there are any issues with your deductions, and if you have dependents. As a financial advisor, I know how many people I am planning for, that you are potentially an aggressive investor if you have a mortgage if you have kids, or dependents to include in the planning. Either way, I know a fair bit without even seeing a form. The income numbers Let's look at the bottom half of page 1.  Line 1 - W-2 go here - You have a job and you are an employee Line 2 - 1099-Int or a Consolidated 1099 - You have savings that are earning interest = Sch B Line 3 - 1099-Div or a Consolidated 1099 - You own investments that pay dividends = Sch B Line 4 - 1099-R - You rolled over a retirement account or you took a distribution from a retirement account or it goes on Line 5 Line 5 - 1099-R - You collect on a pension or an Annuity Line 6 - SSA-1099 - You are collecting Social Security Line 7 - You sold an investment or a property. The Capital Gain is reported on a 1099-B or 1099-S or a Consolidated 1099 Line 8 - This is other income. See Part I of Schedule 1 - State Refunds (1099-G), Jury Duty, Alimony, Unemployment, and since the Olympics are going on your Olympic, ParaOlympic Medals, and USOC prize money, too. Line 9 - Phew - it is just math Deductions Line 10 - Now Adjustments to income - Part II of Schedule 1 - Educator Expense, Self Employed Health Care Expense, Self Employment Tax, Student Loan Interest, IRA Deductions, and of course the nontaxable amounts of your Olympic, ParaOlympic Medals, and USOC prize money. Line 11 - More Math Line 12a - Schedule A Deductions or Standard Deduction Line 12b - If you claim a Standard Deduction you can claim up to $300 in Charitable Deductions Line 12c - Math Line 13 - Qualified Business Deductions (QBI) for Business Owners Line 14 - Math, again. Taxable Income Line 15 - Math and this is your Taxable Income On to page 2 Line 16 - Tax Calculation, the painful math Adjustments Line 17 - Come from Part I of Schedule 2. Alternative Minimum Tax and Excess Advance Premium Tax Credit Line 18 - Math Line 19 - Nonrefundable Child Tax Credit Line 20 - Schedule 3 - Credits and Payments. Dependent Care Credits, Residential Energy Credits, Adoption credits, etc. Line 21 and Line 22 - More Math Line 23 - More Taxes, like additional taxes on HSA distributions, accumulated distributions from Trust, Golden Parachute payments. (Not as common for many) Line 24 - More Painful Math - Your Total Tax Taxes you have paid already Line 25a - W-2 Withholdings Line 25b - 1099 Withholdings Line 25c - Any other form showing withholdings Line 25d - Totals Line 26 - Total of your Estimated Tax Payments  Line 27a - Earned Income Tax Credit Line 27b - Noncombat Taxable Pay Election Line 27c - 2019 Income which may qualify and expand credit due to Coronavirus Line 28 - Refundable portion of Child Tax Credit or Additional Child Tax Credit Line 29 - Form 8863 - American Opportunity Tax Credit Line 30 - Recovery Rebate Credits (Stimulus Checks) Line 31 - Part II of Schedule 3 - Extension Payments, Excess Social Security, Health Care Tax Credits Line 32 - Math Line 33 - Math - Your Total Payments Refund or Tax Due Line 34 - The happy line, which is the amount of your refund if you are getting one Line 35 - What do you want to be refunded Line 36 - What do you want to pay toward next years taxes Line 37 - The unhappy line, What you owe. Line 38 - The insult line, any penalties for underpayment At the bottom of page 2 3rd Party Designee, who you'll allow to talk to the IRS on your behalf. Signatures, sign your return Paid Preparer, if you paid someone to make sure their information is there, otherwise don't pay them. So as a preparer, if I have your return from last year, I can tell what you had on your return based on what lines are filled in. Without the schedules, I may not know everything, but I know where I need to ask more questions. Recap As a Financial Planner, with Lines 1 to 8, I have a pretty good idea if you have investment assets or are drawing income from retirement accounts. If all you have is a 401k I can see that from your W-2. Line 12 gives me a hint if you own or rent your home. Line 13 tells me if you have a business, even if it is a side hustle. Page 2 of Form 1040, lets me know about the credits you collect, and where your withholdings are coming from. Finally, if you are retired and you owe, I know I can help by increasing your withholdings or lowering them if you get a big refund. So, if I am doing your return do I need you to fill out the organizer? If I am trying to build a financial plan do I need you to answer a bunch of questions? In both cases, probably not, but it does make sense for you to give the professionals you are paying to help you as much information as possible. Reality All preparers and planners know most people are stressed about taxes and planning, having a copy of your return makes our job a little easier and allows us to ask intelligent questions. That is it for this episode, and know you know why planners and preparers what to see your return. In true Jerry McGuire fashion, it helps me help you! Until next time, look for your tax documents, find your 2020 return,  be well and stay safe! Visit my podcast website for more information: https://poweringyourretirementradio.com/how-to-read-your-tax-return

How You Can Contribute to the Collective Success in 2022!2022 ENERGY FORECAST - HOW TO MAKE THE BEST OUT OF THIS POWERFUL YEAR!https://go.dharmalifeacademy.com/energy2022/We have all incubated to be on this planet to be here right now, to do our evolutionary spiritual work. If we all work cohesively together by doing our own Dharma, we contribute to the collective consciousness!Set Yourself Up For 2022Each interviewee in this Energy Series has provided an exercise based on their forecast for 2022. They are in all in the free downloadable workbook (link above). There is a paid version (link below) which has a comprehensive workbook and includes ‘off the cuff', YouTube free, Behind the Scenes conversations which do come highly recommended!!This is the Year for Self-Mastery!Here's what you'll learn in this podcast:

Today's show is all about getting your ROI from Instagram. If you've ever read our show description, part of it is learning how to deliver your message effectively and receive engagement and investment on your instances. Today's special guest is client and mentorship member Erica Goode.   Because of the field she's in, she's all about getting that ROI on Instagram! And you're going to hear today how she put that to use with her business on Instagram. Erica is the owner of Erica Goode CPA, a virtual accounting firm for women owned businesses and a former director of finance at Walgreens headquarters. She now helps small business owners wrap their brain around all things business money, and plan financial strategies for the future. Welcome to the show, Erica.      Click below for show notes! https://www.ruthiegray.mom/roi-from-instagram/ Follow Erica on IG here! https://www.instagram.com/erica.goode.cpa/ Sign up for our growth challenge at the link below! https://creative-creator-6398.ck.page/d703bbe991   Early stages of getting ROI from Instagram Erica: Thanks so much for having me Ruthie.  R: Erica reminds me of important things sometimes, I'll read one of her posts on Instagram and it'll be something about quarterly taxes. Then, my neck whips around and my brain goes into a cramp.    E: I say all the fun things. A lot of things. I don't know if they're fun when it comes to that, but they are necessary. R: I want everybody to know you are such a fun person, so funny. Y'all have got to go follow her on IG, linked in shownotes. I'm always impressed by your right-brain thinking Erica.  E: I'm so grateful. I have to admit that when I wrote copy for my website, I joke that my business coach wrote copy for my website while I rocked back and forth in the corner. I just put it like, it wasn't my thing. So if you go to my website, tell my coach, she did a lovely job.  R: She did, it is really awesome. It's concise. What you do and who you help. In fact, I think you just took kind of from that and used it in your bio. Am I right about that on Instagram? E: Yeah I had done all the legwork up front and so when I hit Instagram, I hit it running.  R: Let's just talk a little bit more about the type of work you do and why you decided to add Instagram into the mix.  E: I am a CPA by trade. Right now I help small business owners and we do a lot of soup to nuts accounting. If you need bookkeeping, we provide bookkeeping. We go all the way up to strategic financial planning now. At the time of this recording, it's the end of 2021.  We're knee deep in planning for the entire 2022 year and what that looks like financially for my clients. So we really don't just look in the past.  We are looking forward in the future of what your business forecasting which is so important.  R: I am very thankful to have you here. Let's talk about your Instagram account. Spoiler alert, Erica is already generating funds from her Instagram account and you started it how long ago?    Getting a good ROI from Instagram even while your biz is young E: I started in September, we're officially three months in. E: Because you held my hand Ruthie. I think I called you one day and I said, Ruthie, I want to go on Instagram next week. And you were like, oh, okay. And I said, I don't want to do it.  When can we set up a meeting? I need somebody to hold my hand and I want you to be the person holding my hand. R: You know, that's the kind of clients that I love, they know what they want. Let's back up just a minute, Erica and I, we have been kind of dancing around each other on the internet, via Instagram on her other account for a couple of years. So we got to know each other. So if you're listening to this right now and thinking, I want people to just chase me down, just know that there were a lot of foundational conversations going on in the DM before this ever happened. Right? 

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: My sister just finished reading the Grisha trilogy. And she was, of course, more of a fan of the Six of Crows after reading that. But one of the things she messaged me- she was like “yeah, the ending was kind of whatever, but it is very clear that this person was reading Harry Potter when they wrote this.” R: [laughs] K: And I said “Yeah, that definitely comes through.” She gave me this whole list of like, book two is basically just The Order of the Phoenix, and the end battle with all of the Grisha and the stand downs, all this stuff, and I was like “Yeah, I guess you're right.” To be honest with you, I kinda limped through the end of that book, I wasn't thinking about that too much. But anyways, it got me thinking about influences in writing and how writers are influenced and how in some cases that's something that we're like “Yes! You can tell that this writer was influenced by such-and-such, and they weave it so beautifully into their story.” And sometimes you get my sister calling me to complain about how she basically just read Harry Potter with Russian witches.  R: So was your sister accusing the author in any way of plagiarism? K [overlapping]: Not plagiarism. R [overlapping]: As a reader I'm curious, like how the reader perceives it when it's that clear when someone's been influenced.  K: I should've asked her before we started recording this - and this is something we'll get to in there - I couldn't tell if my sister was accusing the author of laziness or unoriginality.  R: Okay. K: That's one of the things I wanted to talk about today as we're talking about influence. What is influence, how are writers influenced? How's the best way to leverage and utilize that influence? And when does influence cross into the realm of the negative? When is it no longer praise worthy? When is it, for instance, lazy, contrived, unoriginal, or, in worst case scenario, bordering into plagiarism?  R: Yeah, because that's a tricky thing - if we always wrote a completely original story, you wouldn't have something like Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey. Because we wouldn't have a set format that a story would take. So when somebody accuses a fantasy book of being “Star Wars with elves,” well, Star Wars was a Greek epic in space.  K: Oh, I would've called it a Western. R: Okay fine. [overlapping] I mean, people have called it a Western. K: [overlapping] I mean, both work. Both work. [laughs] R: Yeah, but I'm just saying, The Hero's Journey, Joseph Campbell is, he's studying the ancient literature, so that's why I decided to say Greek. But if we could always write something that was completely original, there would be no way to study literature with comparisons and contrasts. There are always going to be parallels between stories written in a similar culture by people who are writing in a similar society. Like, a hundred years apart, you would not necessarily detect the influence of Harry Potter in the Grishaverse. But they're not written a hundred years apart - it was maybe a decade, probably not. K: I'd be curious to go back and try to time out when these books were being written, and when that coincides with the release of the latter half of the Harry Potter books. But anyways, real quick, I'm big into definitions, so let's talk about definitions. Influence is the capacity of something - a person, a situation, a circumstance - to have an effect on another person, on the development of the situation, on the behavior of someone or something. Or, in some cases, even the effect itself. You'll notice there that influence is kind of framed as both proactive and reactive. You can influence something, or you can be influenced. We're talking today about being influenced.  R: And we're not talking about Instagram.  K: [laughs] Oh, God. You know what's funny? I went through this whole thing and I didn't even think about the concept of influencers, and now I'm depressed. R: Because you didn't or because now you are? K: [laughs] Because now I am. R: Okay. I'm sorry. I take it back, I didn't say anything.  K: [laughs] So, writers don't write in a void. It's sort of a reverse Heisenberg principle, which is “whatever you study will also change.” Whatever you read changes you, or whatever you consume changes you. So, writers don't write in a void. If you took a baby and raised them in a box with no interaction with the outside world whatsoever, well, to be honest I'm not sure they'd be capable of putting together an interesting story because they've had no influence.  R: You know what's funny, that's why I don't have kids. Because I thought about this kind of thing frequently in high school, like “what would happen if you raised a child in a padded room? And you never interacted with them, and they never saw another human?” So you're welcome, world, that I have not raised any children. Those children are welcome because I did not abuse them in such a manner.  K: [laughs]  R: But it's good to hear that someone else has had these thoughts. Although, Kaelyn and I did originally bond over the fact that we're terrified of the idea of raising children.  K: Pregnancy is just - R: And pregnancy. It's not for everybody. I recognize that for some people it's a beautiful process, but for Kaelyn and for me, it is body horror.  K: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's an entire nother skeleton in your skeleton. [laughs] R: Yes. And it's growing. [overlapping] It's getting larger.  K [overlapping]: It keeps getting bigger. R: And if you've never seen an MRI of a baby's skull, there's a lot of teeth in there.  K: Yeah, also they're squishy. R: Well, the MRI doesn't necessarily show that. It just shows all those chompers, waiting. Waiting.  K: Yeah. There's a lot of extra teeth in there.  R: Okay. [laughs] Where were we going? K [overlapping]: So for our writing- R [overlapping]: A child raised in a padded cell would probably write a different kind of story than somebody who's been exposed to Harry Potter.  K: Yeah, and if you take out every third word, it's their plan to destroy the world with their laser beams.  R: This reminds me of the book The Artist's Way. I think it's a month-long program designed to improve your creativity and I think maybe even to come up with… it's like NaNoWriMo but it's very classist and elitist.  K: [laughs] R: But the first thing it asks you to do is swear off all media for the month. K: Okay. R: And I put the book down right there. K: [laughs] R: Because I was like, that is literally impossible. I was in art school at the time, so I could not promise that I wasn't going to have to look at media. And also, this was written in 1992, before anybody was logging onto the internet daily.  K: Yeah, it was much easier to walk away from media for a month.  R: And I was trying to read it, I think, in 1999 or 2000, and it was even easier, at that point, to walk away from media than it would be now.  K: Yep. R: But, yes, it's called The Artist's Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity by Julia Cameron. And I imagine that Julia Cameron has a very nice life and is able to unplug from media whenever it is convenient for her to do so. K: Well, in 1992 that meant “turn off the TV.” R: Right, it meant “don't pick up a newspaper” or, you know. K: Yeah. R: In 2016 they re-released a 25th anniversary edition, and I can't imagine they did much to it, but it really probably needed a lot of re-examining to - K: Yeah. It's -  R: - to even be relevant in 2016, I can't even imagine.  K: Now, was the purpose of this to do a detox of influence from your life? R: Yes. That is exactly what it was, to avoid influence for the month and find out what you write, not what the world around you influences you to write. But I think in her case, she was treating world influence and media and current events as a negative.  K: Mhm. R: And I would argue that if you are responding to the world around you, then the politics of your creativity is going to be more relevant and more well-informed. And I think that's a good thing.  K: Well, yeah. And this is something that we can certainly talk about with influence - current influence versus longevity. You'll see a lot of writers that go out of their way to not incorporate things that might later be considered an anachronism in their writing, so that they're not influenced by that.  R: Mhm. K: So that's another good example of influence. So, let's get the elephant in the room out of the way here: influence is not copying. As we were talking about, writers don't write in a void. You're absorbing everything that you interact with and consume every day, and, whether you know it or not, it's influencing and incorporating itself into even your way of thought.  R: You hear that? So if you were following an Instagram influencer, do not copy everything they do.  K: [laughs] Yes. Please don't. But, again, it's the reverse Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Whatever you're consuming changes you. There are entire PhD programs dedicated to studying and understanding the influence that certain parts of literature have had on larger parts of literature. Influence is not a bad thing. In many ways, it's a scholarly pursuit. Go to any Wikipedia page for any sort of well-known novel, and I guarantee you there's going to be a section in there that says “Influence.”  R: Oh yeah, yeah. K: And it's going to be a couple paragraphs talking about the history of the genre, or the subject material leading up to this. Influence is, apart from being an important part of writing, an academic pursuit. So all of that said, we are talking about influence in a very positive way here. We're saying it's great to read things, and to consume and internalize them so that this can help enrich your writing. Something that you really enjoyed, something you thought was maybe unique, or something that you were like, “Oh, what if I applied that to a character that I already have?” That's a good thing. I think it enriches your writing, I think it shows layers and growth, etcetera. K: That said, sometimes influence goes the opposite way. [laughs] Sometimes you've read something and you're like, “this is terrible,” or “this was such a ridiculous ending,” or “I hated that this happened.” And that might compel you to go through your manuscript and scrub absolutely everything having to do with that. The whole point is that whether you mean to or not, you are going to be influenced by external components in your writing. You could never read anything else, and you will still be influenced by things in the world just by existing in it. But we are talking more about influences in writing here, so we'll stick with that.  R: And we assume that you are being influenced by books because, as we say, if you want to be a writer you need to also be a reader. So we're telling you, go read widely in your genre, and part of that is that we expect you to absorb some of those elements and some of those styles. On a conscious level, we want you to look at the covers, we want you to look at the themes and the tropes and everything like that, but we also expect that on a subconscious level that's going to influence you and hopefully make you a better writer within your genre. K: And if you read a lot within your genre, you will start to notice trails of influence yourself. If you read a lot of - especially maybe a really niche kind of fantasy or science fiction genre, you're going to be able to chronologically put some things in order, like “Oh yes, I can see that book A came out at this time, and then three years later this book came out, and there are certainly elements from book A that I can see coming through in book B even though they were written by different authors.” K: So, I was telling Rekka before we started recording–I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole with this, because for reasons unbeknownst to me and possibly the influence of vampiric elements, I, for whatever reason, picked up my copy of Dracula off the shelf and I've just been flipping through random parts. And then we were talking about doing this, and I was like, vampires are a really really good example of influence through literature. They're something that has always been around - the Mayans actually had a god that was basically a vampire, even though they didn't acknowledge that, bat wings and all. And there's something that–I think you'd be hard pressed to find a significant culture of any sort of longevity from history that didn't have some sort of mythological being that displayed vampire-like qualities. K: In the late 1700s, early 1800s, though, there was the vampire craze in western Europe. There were a lot of short stories and things written about vampires, even though they've been codified as part of the mythos for a long time. But even then, they were sort of holding up the folklore and traditions of vampires–they were reanimated corpses, they were bloodsuckers that came out at night to drain people of their very lifeforce. In some cases, actively rotting bodies, hunched back and demonic looking, claw-fingered and fangs and scary eyes. A lot of this was the traditional folklore. Then we start getting into sexy vampires. [laughs] R: [laughs] I was just going to say. K: [laughs] And there were a couple specific novels that did this. In 1819, John Polidori published a short story called The Vampyre, and this was the first one where the vampire was more of a character rather than just a mindless bloodsucking dead creature. R: Right. This was a vampire worthy of Bela Lugosi's eyes.  K: Oh, no one's worthy of Bela Lugosi's eyes. [laughs] R: You know what I'm saying. K: I know, I'm teasing. So, it was very popular. So then, a lot of vampire short stories and short novels were coming out where the vampires were getting a little more sophisticated, and all of these were drawing influence from Polidori's short story. It was a very successful short story. So then, in 1872, an Irish author named Joseph Sheridan [with a mock-French accent] Le Fanu - I'm assuming it's French which is why I did that accent - published Carmilla, which was a fantastic novel. And this is, I would say, probably a turning point where vampires are unabashedly being associated with a sexual element at this point. It has a not-very-subtle vampiric lesbian... stalking, I guess, going on through this book. It's fantastic, it's not that long. If you ever get a chance to read it, it's great. K: And then of course, a couple decades later in 1897, we come to Bram Stoker's Dracula. I should, by the way, say that Bram Stoker and Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu were both Irish. Ireland had a shockingly strong folklore of vampires. In some cases they were fae, which is a whole different category of supernatural elements in Ireland, and in some cases they were just reanimated corpses. Anyways, then we get Bram Stoker, who of course gives us Dracula. And this is considered the preeminent vampire guideline bible, if you will. I think when most of us - granted, Rekka and I are older millennials, but - R: [laughs] How dare you? K: I think the first vampire we heard of was Dracula.  R: Mhm. K: I actually remember, growing up, that there was a kid in my neighborhood who just thought vampires were called Draculas.  R: Yeah. I think that was probably a… Not that I thought Dracula was a noun, but I never expected Dracula to look the same way twice.  K: Yeah. Yeah, Dracula was just like - Dracula, vampire. They were interchangeable.  R: Mhm. K: And that's how synonymous this became. Now, look at all the stuff that lead up to this in order for us to get the seminal vampire novel of the time. Stoker was absolutely influenced by all these novels that came before. Something else that's really interesting that Stoker was influenced by is the sexual component of vampires in this. Like I said, that came through hard and strong. Well, maybe I should say most popularly with Carmilla. Here's something else really interesting about Stoker: he was probably gay. It's difficult and inappropriate to go back and retroactively categorize people these ways, but there's a lot of very strong… I'm trying not to say “homoerotic,” I'm trying to say… There's a lot of very - R: Queerotic? [laughs] K: Yeah, there's a- R: There's not a queer person in the universe that will argue this point with you.  K: Yeah. R: I think the LGBTQIA+ are very, very ready to claim vampirism.  K: [laughs] Absolutely. And that's a great part of the influence of this. Some of Stoker's best friends were Oscar Wilde and Walt Whitman. Actually, I believe Stoker either started writing or finished writing Dracula right after Oscar Wilde was imprisoned, and they were exchanging letters while he was in prison.  R: Mhm. K: You have to keep in mind, this was the mid-Victorian period, there's very repressed sexuality, but there was also this burgeoning underground masculine sexual component to it, where everyone - R: See people, this is what happens when you don't let people reveal their ankles.  K: Yes. Yes, exactly. [laughs] So, one of the things through Dracula is this secretiveness, this sense of penetration. Not only the fangs in your throat, but a lot of them get into your head and screw with you that way. This was not something we saw in previous iterations of vampires, who were gross, for lack of a better term. [laughs] R: [laughs] Yeah.  K: So, this influence comes through in a lot of different ways. And as I'm talking more about Dracula I can say like, “Okay, well there's a lot of very… what we would now consider queer sexual elements that we see in Dracula, coming through with the relationship between Dracula and Johnathan Harker and Dracula and Mina.” But there's also the influence of other writers who were starting to make vampires actually people, rather than Nosferatu-style monsters.  R: Right. K: Dracula, I would argue, then in turn really helped influence the next generation of common horror. At that point we're getting into H.P. Lovecraft and existential horror. Lovecraft, who, by the way, wasn't quite a contemporary of Stoker's, but was very aware and actually wrote some reviews of his writing. He didn't really like a lot of it. [laughs] I would argue that that was probably part of what influenced Lovecraft: it was a hard turn from these very sterile, white-marble, gothic horror novels to a lot of raw, and ocean, and dark mold, steam spaces.  R: You can literally write the sentence “I can't describe this.” and people are like “Woo, that is scary.” K: Yeah exactly. So much of Lovecraft is like, “it's too horrible to describe!” but it's like “Yeah, but can you tell me anyway?” [laughs] R: You mentioned earlier that an influence can be “I don't want to do this.” K: Yes. R: So, here we are. This is Lovecraft saying  “Well, Stoker wasn't racist enough for me, so I'm gonna write my own thing.” K: [laughs] Oh, God, Lovecraft. It's so hard to read some of that stuff. [sighs] Psychologists would be better at trying to figure out Lovecraft's influence than me, I'm certainly not going to. To say the man had issues is an understatement. He was more of a collection of neuroses formed into a human. Anyways, this is just something I was thinking of as a pretty-easy-to-track set of influences. We go from vampires being very loosely defined and having inconsistent characteristics based on what region the stories are being told in, to some stories published that codify certain rules about them, to their evolution from “Eww, it's a rotting, blood-drinking corpse” to “Huh, maybe I'd like date that person.” R: [laughs] Maybe I would like those lips on my bare neck! K: Yes, exactly. Which is a pretty interesting leap that really did not take that long to get from point A to point B. But all of this was just building on influence and influence, after that.  R: Yeah, all you needed was for one author to pick it up and go, “What if vampires, but sexy?” K: [laughs] Yeah. You know what's funny, we have this sort of modern-day depiction of Dracula as a very suave, debonair… what's the word I'm looking for? High-society type person.  R: Sophisticated.  K: Sophisticated, yeah. In the novel, he is those things a little bit, but he is very off-putting and he is... weird to look at, I guess I should say. R: Yeah, there's that first scene where Johnathan is eating in front of him, and you definitely get a vibe that this dude is not right.  K: Like, he's talking about his hairy ears. [laughs] R: [laughs] Yeah. K: His weird skin, he looks ill, as if when he's making his way to the castle all of the peasantry crying and pressing crucifixes into his hands wasn't red-flag enough for him. R: No, no, no. It's just a quaint little village, this is the thing they do. There is the aspect of vampirism having the power of glamour, and I think this is probably the most effective display of it. The way that he's describing Dracula, there's nothing attractive about this man, and yet. K: He's very drawn to him. R: Mhm. K: And he wants to help him. R: As is Mina. [laughs] K: And Lucy, and all of them. So yeah, vampires. Great example of influence in literature over the course of a relatively short time, shaping something that we now consider to be commonplace.  R: Mhm. K: We've even narrowed it down farther. One of my favorite things about Dracula is, there's nothing that necessarily says he can't go in the sun in that book.  R: Right, right. [laughs] K: It's just that he has no powers after noon, I think, or he loses his powers at sunrise. So he can be outside, but he's just a regular guy at that point.  R: Mhm. K: So, obviously things continued to change and evolve there, the “no going out during the day” is held over from the much older vampire myths. Anyways. So, all of that said, how do we see influences in writing? When can we pick these out? One of the obvious is the story itself, the plot. Maybe some story arcs. R: I would argue that people tend to pick it up faster when it's a similar setting. When it's the worldbuilding, I think people notice it more. K: Okay. R: And I think, again, plot arcs and character arcs are things that we do have to recycle.  K: Absolutely. I think it's rare these days to see completely original, never-before-imagined setting. In terms of world-building, both the world itself, and in my notes here I put “world systems.” Anything from the way magic functions, or government functions, or society functions. There's only so many ways you can organize people, essentially. [laughs] So there may have been something that you came across and you're like “Oh, that's interesting. What if I did this instead?” The characters- anything from the archetypes and tropes of characters to their storylines and their redemption arcs, or even just the relationships, how they interact with each other. How the characters are broken out either into family groups or groups of friends or hierarchies within that. I think we see that a lot. With plot, we can kind of go back to what I said at the beginning of the episode: sometimes there are things in there where it's like, “this is clearly Order of the Phoenix.”  R: Mhm.  K: [laughs] We're just seeing it presented a different way. R: And again, an agent loves this, because you can say “this is my list of story comps.” And if they're successful books, the agent can use that to sell the story and then the publisher can use it to sell the book. K: Mhm. R: So even though sometimes it sounds like we are poo-pooing derivative work, if it comes across as fresh, nobody's going to poo-poo that you have a great list of comps to start with.  K: Definitely, yeah. R: And I would like to note that that is the first time we have said “poo-poo” on this podcast. I feel like that should be marked. K: That definitely needs to be denoted for posterity. R: And now it's been said three times. K: [laughs] Then there's two other areas of influence I'd like to talk about that are a little harder to quantify. One is style. And this comes more to writing style, and how you're presenting your story. For instance, being influenced by the way the author just writes in general, their style, I will harken back to one of our favorite examples here. If you've read Gideon the Ninth it is a very very unique writing style, not something I've ever come across before and I'm sure there are a lot of people who are currently in the process of attempting to imitate it; I don't know how successful they're going to be, but I bet they're trying. R: And then there are others who are influenced by it to say “Oh, I can let loose like that?” K: Yeah. Exactly. Or, “I can try something completely different that I didn't think anybody would be interested in, but if they're willing to do this then maybe they would.” Point of view or viewpoint in the book - if you've read the second book in the Locked Tomb series, Harrow the Ninth, a lot of that is written second person. The Broken Earth series, large portions of that are in second person. R: Well, the Broken Earth series, the amazing thing is it's written in all three. K: Yes, yeah. R: So if you haven't read that I can't go any further, I do not wanna spoil that, even though it's been out for years, the culmination of that book is so good that I refuse to ever spoil it. But go read it, if you haven't read it, for sure. It's a big one - K: It's a lot - R: But it is so worth it. I listen to it on audio, and I can recommend that too. K: Yeah. So both of those books have instances of strange, or - R: Disorienting? K: Disorienting's an excellent word. I remember reading Harrow the Ninth and texting Rekka and going like “Is this like this the entire time?” R: And my only response is “Did you get to the soup yet?” K: [laughs] And it was a mentality shift, and once I just was like “Okay, I fixed my brain to a point that it can accept and read this now.” But another style quality is dialogue. How you incorporate and how you use dialogue in your writing is something that I think is very easily influenced by how other people do that. This can also start feeding into the character influence there as well, how the characters talk and interact with each other is very influenced by dialogue. So then the last kind of nebulous part that I'd like to talk about, and this is a little bit different but it is worth bringing up, is historical influence. There are a lot of books and stories that are nominal retellings of either one or a series of historical events. I'll use Game of Thrones here as an example, and spoilers for anybody who hasn't read or watched - R: I don't care if we spoil Game of Thrones. [laughs] K: George R. R. Martin, well first the basis of a lot of this is the War of the Roses, which was the English Civil War. It was also called the Hundred Years' War; it was just a long, bloody, drawn-out battle of constantly changing kings and powerful families trying to get their person on the throne of England. R: And the interesting part is, it is a hundred years, so the people who started this have cast this war upon the generations to follow, and if that doesn't tell you something about where George R. R. Martin is going to be forced to take the end of the books, I don't know what will, because HBO managed to make the show take what, the war take five years or maybe ten years if that? Just the fact that it was ten seasons, right? Was it ten seasons or nine? K: It was eight seasons. R: Okay, so at most, because of the children aging on the show, it was a nine-year hundred-year war. So if George R. R. Martin is following intentionally the framework of the Hundred Years' war, none of the characters that you're rooting for are going to make it. Just in the nature of aging. K [overlapping]: And there's - you can go through and just read a brief history of the Hundred Years' War, and you'll be able to identify characters in there. Like Tyrion has some very clear Richard III vibes to him. But then there's other historical events and groups of people that he took and pulled into this. The Lannisters are such a clear parallel of the Borgia family that it's almost difficult to know that and read this and know what happened to the Borgias. The Red Wedding was based off of a famous event in Scotland where something very very similar happened to that. Some Scottish lords were invited to dinner by a Scottish lord with English leanings, and he killed all of them, to get in good with the English. R: After serving them bread. K: After serving them bread, exactly. But again, historical influence - the concept of guestright is very important in most cultures and especially in Scotland. So there's so many examples of people taking strong influence from either actual historical events or folklore and mythological events, like the Trojan War and things like that, and incorporating it into their writing. There are a lot of writers who decide “I'm gonna do a modern interpretation of such-and-such,” because maybe - for instance the Trojan War, they're very interested in classic Greek mythology and decide “Hey, that's a great story to tell; I'm gonna set it in a different place but still tell the story.” K: So that's some elements of influence, and before we wrap up here, let's address the thing we started to talk a little bit about but should definitely round out. When is influence just becoming copying, at a certain point? This is hard. Because it's really about finesse and originality. It's about taking something that you liked and putting your own spin on it, so to speak. If you're just re-creating the same story and sticking your characters into it, you're going to get called at best lazy, at worst a plagiarist. R: Yeah, there are plenty of books out there - and I have one to include in the list - that are retellings of a classic story. The problem is when you don't approach it as “how do I make this my story?” K: Yes. I'm gonna use young adult genres here because it's a little bit newer and easier to trace through this, and I'm not going to name books in this apart from the first series that I will name because that author is wildly successful. The Mortal Instruments trilogy - you could probably say series at this point, there's so many books in that world at this point - by Cassandra Clare, is one of the early and premiere urban fantasy young adult novels. This was copied so many times. Some of the authors were a little more original with where they were setting it, some of them were a little more original with where they were putting the characters or who the characters were, but the magical teeenagers who are part of a secret society that protects humanity was everywhere. ‘Cause these books were a runaway success. They were very original; no one had really seen something like this before. The Mortal Instruments created so many tropes that I can't and will not try to name them. R: And I think it's, part of that, somebody loves a book that they experienced so much that they want to hold onto that feeling forever, and one way to do that is to create something completely inspired by that same world. And this is where fanfic comes from, and fanfic is healthy, and it's a great way to express feelings of “I don't want to leave this book world.” But when you take it to a publisher and you say “This is going to sell really well because the other one that already did it sold really well,” as they say - don't follow trends in publishing, because you're five years behind. K: Conversely, a lot of people were able to get things like this published because the market wasn't inundated with this yet. R: Right, you had to be among the first to imitate a successful book, which is why they say don't follow the trends, because you won't be among the first. There are so many people out there writing that there are easily 500 people ahead of you in the queue for the publisher slush pile. K: Yeah and I wanna be clear, the first book of this entire - I'm not joking, I think there's over 20 books within this world at this point - the first one came out in 2007. So yes, the Internet was very alive and well at that point; it was not what it is now. Writing communities on the Internet were not what they are now. But all of this is to say that there were people who just straight up copied this genre, this book in some way. Either in terms of setting, in terms of characters, in terms of the magical elements of this, they just straight up copied this and I gotta be honest with you, a lot of them were not terribly successful. [laughs] Some of them were, though, and some of them made some money off of this. R: Well, for other readers who are not writers, when the same thing happens they come out of a book series and they have to wait for the next book, they want more. K: Exactly, they were looking for more. R: This is not unlike when the animation company puts out a very similar cheap animation to the latest Disney release. I worked at Blockbuster, and I saw this all the time. You'd have a big animated Disney release, and you'd have this tiny company out of who-knows-where that put together an animated copy, and they rely on parents and grandparents to grab the wrong one. This is not like trying to give the kids more of what they want, this is like “If we are gonna be next to this Disney movie on the shelf, someone will pick us up by accident and we will make money.” K: Well I always remember because a lot of Disney's classics, like the Disney renaissance movies, they were all like public domain stories. So they would just make that and they could get it out on VHS faster than Disney could - R: Yeah, they were made direct to video. K: Because Disney left it in - like everyone knew what the upcoming Disney movies were. So if you knew there was gonna be Aladdin, well, the story of Aladdin is public domain, you start making Aladdin right away. [Brief interlude of car noises] R: I literally believe that Mike's apartment is built on an overpass. K: No, just next to a road with a lot of people who drive like idiots. R: Well that was like a garbage truck, but anyway. K: That was a motorcycle. R: That was a motorcycle?? It sounded like it had at least 16 wheels. K: Yeah. R: Alright, sorry, so Aladdin - K: So everyone knew what movies Disney was making well in advance, and of course these would take years after they were announced to actually be finished and put in theatres. So if Disney says “we're making Aladdin” - R [overlapping]: Before it's in theatres! K: - well then, another small studio can also make Aladdin. The animation isn't gonna be great but then Aladdin's gonna be in the theatres and then a week later the imitation Aladdin are going to be on shelves, and grandparents are gonna go “Oh my grandchildren want to see -” R: Or “They've been talking about this movie and here it is on VHS,” and they don't know how theatre releases work and so they grab it and buy it, and they spend $18 or $15, seems like a really good deal on a Disney movie, and the animation studio makes their money back. So they do it again. K: So don't be that cheap animation studio. Don't be the person that's taking something that somebody put a lot of time, thought, and creativity into, and churning out the cheap, fast, easy-to-consume version of it. R: Yeah and I don't think, when it comes to writers - I mean I'm sure there are people out there who go “Okay this is the newest thing, I am going to behave like an algorithm and I am going to make another version of it and then release it, and I will make lots of bucks.” There are those writers that–they do that on purpose. So don't be them. But I don't think any of our audience are going to be them. And if you were thinking that that was a great way to make a successful book, let us correct you. But if you are inspired by Gideon the Ninth, or by Mortal Instruments, or anything like that - take the time to develop a story just like you would a completely inspired out of left field story, and take the time to put it together in a considerate and thoughtful and unique way, and then we approve. You get our approval. We're not promising to buy the manuscript, but we are approving a heartfelt influenced work, not an imitation that is intended to ride the wave of success of someone else. K: Exactly. R: Now when we're saying “copying,” are you talking about the publishing houses out there who literally lift the copy and try to sell it on Amazon, and just do it again and again and again as they get caught and cancelled? K: [laughs] No, no. Copying has, I think the way I'm defining it, more to do with not adding any creativity or original elements of your own, just saying “I liked what this person did, I'm going to do it too.” And listen - it's a fine line. One of the things that's really interesting about plagiarism is it's either very obvious - somebody had too many parts in a book, a novel, a poem, that are clearly just from another book - or, you've gotta go through a whole process of proving that somebody had access to something you were working on and directly lifted elements from that and put it into their book. Plagiarism is either very straightforward or very difficult. R: And, with plagiarism, they have plagiarism checkers on the Internet; I think a lot of teachers appreciate that because they can't read everything. So they can run an assignment from a student through a plagiarism checker, and that plagiarism checker can do its best with whatever it has access to in its database to catch - K: Plagiarism checkers are very good now, by the way. R: But we're talking word-for-word plagiarism. Sometimes what we refer to in the publishing world as plagiarism is actually trademark infringement. K: Yes. R: And that is difficult because if you write a story with Harry Potter in it, but you change his name and all the words are your original words, how do we run a plagiarism checker against that? K: Yes. So it's like I said, either very easy or very difficult to prove plagiarism; there's rarely a middle ground there. R: Although there are books that have been caught lifting a paragraph or two, from different books. So like the entire thing is plagiarized, but it's plagiarized from different sources. K: Yeah. You see instances of plagiarism tend to show up more in academic and scientific publishing than in fiction and genre-writing. It definitely does happen, though. R: Yup. Because, again, there are people out there who are confused about what is allowed and what is advisable in writing.  K: There are some really significant seminal works in American literature especially–I'm sure globally but I just happen to know the American ones–that are just plagiarized in certain places. And a lot of them were written in a time where it wasn't as easy to check this, so we- R: Find out much later, when it is easier, how much that was widespread. K: Yup. Exactly. R: There are nefarious people. I was referring, in my last statement, to the innocent, naive new writer, who just does not understand what is and isn't acceptable. Or, they didn't intend for it to go widespread, and they wrote a little thing for fun and end up finding out that they are not welcome and doors are being shut in their face because they crossed the line and it got noticed. K: Yeah, exactly.  R: That's the thing, a little baby writer learning about things the very hard way. It's a shame. That would be someone that you would hope would find a mentor who would guide them in the right direction before that kind of thing gets shot in their face. But with a pen name you can be reborn, as long as you reiterate yourself in better forms than the previous mistakes that you made. K: Yeah, and plagiarism should be very easy to avoid. R: Mhm. K: If you're looking at somebody else's work and saying “I wish this was mine, I'm going to make this mine,” don't do that. You should never be copying text from somebody else. Everything should be written on your own.  R: Yeah, don't go, “How did that person write it? I loved that so much.” Well yes, you did, but that's not your voice. So write it yourself. And I would say that if you close a book and you go, “Oh, I'm so inspired to write,” and you sit down and you start writing right away, don't publish that. [laughs] K: Yeah. R: There is a process to developing your own ideas even if it's mostly internal and you never grab a notebook and work out the story itself. The process of coming up with your own ideas is not “I just read this, I'm going to go write because I'm inspired and I'm going to finish that book before I do anything else.” [laughs] That's probably going to be a very derivative, if not plagiaristic, book. So don't do that. I always recommend you sit with your ideas for a while before you sit down and write it.  K: Absolutely. I mean, that's important in general. R: Carry it around like a baby, pretend you're some kind of marsupial and you have your twelve-day gestation period but you still carry that little joey around for a while before it's ready to enter the world. That's kind of the process that I recommend for a writer. K: [laughs] So there you go. Be a marsupial. R: Be a marsupial. The opossum tail has its own fingerprints which are unique to it, so there's that. Grow a prehensile tail and commit crimes with it so that you can be tail-printed later. Alright, I don't know where this story's going.  K: I like it, I like it. R: Yeah, I like it too, but it's not a good way to wrap up an episode because all we can do is just stop. [laughs] So, if you have any questions about plagiarism or inspiration, or you just want to share your inspirations and influences, you can @ us on Twitter or Instagram @WMBcast. You can find us on patreon.com/WMBcast, and we will have some more marsupial facts for you in two weeks. K: [laughs] R: [laughs] Thanks everybody for listening, and I hope this was a helpful discussion. Kaelyn and I have to go sit at a desk and figure out- have we fulfilled the promises that we made to you when we started this podcast? Because we feel like we've just kind of been indulging ourselves in what topics we bring up, so if you feel like, “Hey, you said you were going to cover this, and you never covered that,” definitely tell us that too, because we want to go back to our mission statement and make sure that every once in a while we give you an episode that's in line with that. So if you have input to that regard, please let us know. Otherwise, marsupial facts in two weeks! Thanks everyone!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 71 Transcription Kaelyn: Today we're talking about villains and antagonists, and why they're not actually the same thing, except in the cases that they are. Rekka: Yes, exactly. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Perfect. I think that nails it. Sometimes they're not the same thing, sometimes they are. K: Yeah, and we'll kinda get to this but, most villains are antagonists - most, not all. Not all antagonists are villains. And in fact you will likely, in any given story, have multiple antagonists, not all of whom are the villain. I went through and really dug up all of this stuff; shockingly, the word ‘hero' is the one with the most definitions attached to it, and most different con - R: We're not talking about heroes today! We're not! K [overlapping]: Well we - but we have to, because we don't get villains without heroes, and we don't get antagonists without protagonists. Both villains and antagonists are defined and really only exist so that they can oppose or create conflict for the hero or protagonist. It kinda makes you wonder, if left to their own devices, maybe they're just a mad scientist in a lab somewhere. R: Maybe they're the hero of their own story. K: Yeah, and then suddenly someone shows up to fight them and now they're the bad guy. [laughing] R: “I was perfectly lawful and good until you showed up!” K: Exactly, yes. The basic difference between a villain and an antagonist is that an antagonist is somebody who is there to contend or oppose the main character, typically the protagonist of the story. They're there to create opposition. A villain is doing that, but they're evil. R: [laughs] K [laughing]: What they're doing is, the opposition that they're creating is either causing harm, causing suffering, will destroy the human race. It could be something more on a micro scale, where they've kidnapped the daughter of the main character; maybe they're trying to get their lemonade stand shut down so that they can sell lemonade that's gonna turn people into lizard people. An antagonist at the surface is just somebody who's doing things that's causing problems for the protagonist. They don't necessarily have to be evil. R: They could just be a rival. K: Yeah. Or any number of other things we're gonna get to here, but. And in fact as I mentioned, as you're reading a book, you're frequently gonna come across antagonists that are not actually evil. There's gonna be an antagonist who's the villain who may be evil at some point, not always, but there will be people that are antagonists. I will use an example that we love to use: Gideon the Ninth. Harrow definitely serves as an antagonist to Gideon through the book. But Harrow is not evil. R: Right. K: That's a great example of a villain operating without the audience knowing that the protagonist is coming into direct conflict with them because, we don't really find out who the villain of the story is until the very very end of it. Then we can look back and go like ‘Ah yes I see all of these things now.' The villain in the story, and spoilers if you haven't read Gideon the Ninth, but also if you listen to this podcast and you still haven't read it - R: You obviously are never going to read it at this point. K [laughing]: Yeah. The villain turns out to be Dulcinia, who is impersonating another character - and I stayed away, when writing notes for this and getting into the philosophical of what is evil and what is not - for these purposes we're gonna call her motives evil, in that she is trying to hunt down and destroy a lot of different people for her own reasons. The conflict that we come into there actually causes the antagonist and the protagonist in this, Gideon and Harrow, to sort of team up to oppose the actual villain, which by the way is a very common writing trope. Antagonists are a necessary component to any story even if they are not the source of central conflict. R: Yeah, because - and I know you're gonna lean into this example - but in Harry Potter, Draco Malfoy feels like he is central to everything in Harry's life, even though most of the time he just shows up to spew some awful thing he's overheard his parents say and then go away again. K: Draco is a good example of an antagonist who goes through a lot of different forms. Draco in the first few books of the series, he kinda shows up to make some comments and then leaves. He's not really doing much. Even in the second book when he's talking about the Chamber of Secrets and the heir of Slytherin and he actually is sitting around going ‘God I wish there was a way for me to help him' - well, okay, that's what minions do. Small antagonists. R: Most of the time everything that Draco Malfoy does or says is just to reinforce the fact that he's a jerk. K: Yeah, Draco just sorta pops up to remind all of us that there's Voldemort out there and his followers are terrible, because we don't see or interact directly with Voldemort for a lot of these books, so Draco's there to kind of remind us that he's out there. But then we finally get to book six, when Draco is given a very specific task to do: kill Dumbledore. And those listening at home, ‘okay well doesn't that make him a villain?' Well - does it? Because first of all he doesn't really actually wanna do this, but he has to. Second, he doesn't do it. At the end, he's not the one who carries this out. So again, everything's relative here. Because to Harry, he is just this thing that Harry feels he needs to track down and find out what's happening. You could go so far as to argue that Harry is creating his own conflict here, because if he just left Draco alone and went about his life trying to find these Horcruxes, things would've gone a lot smoother. R: [laughs] K: Dumbledore keeps telling Harry, ‘Hey. I got the Draco situation under control, don't worry about it.' Not in so many words and maybe if he had, again, things would've gone differently - R: You know what, communicating clearly is the antagonist of a plot. K: Okay. So that's interesting that you say that, because antagonists are not always people. R: Mhm. K: Antagonists can be certain external factors that the protagonist has to contend with. A good example of this is nature, in something like the movie Castaway. It's not evil - R [overlapping]: Okay. I was gonna say Deep Impact, like the meteor is not a villain, the meteor is an antagonist. K: Yeah. Exactly. It's not evil. The meteor or nature or something is not saying like, ‘Yes, I will destroy the world, and then also Tom Hanks.' [chuckles] R: If it can twirl its mustache, it might be a villain. K: It's just there, and it's something that the characters have to contend with. It can also be something supernatural; the thing I thought of off the top of my head was The Nothing in NeverEnding Story. It's operating unconsciously, if you will, in the sense that it doesn't seem to have nefarious purposes. It's just existing, and it's just growing. The characters are opposing it, they're trying to find a way to stop it, but it's not evil in and of itself. R: A hero trying to stop global warming is not fighting a villain. Unless - K: Ah, there's some villains in there. R: Yeah never mind, I take all that back. K: An antagonist can also be something like a society or an unjust system that the hero has to live and function in. The example that came to mind was Les Miserables. The main character, Jean Valjean, is sent to prison for stealing a loaf of bread because his sister and her children were starving. And we as the audience are meant to understand here that, while Javert - I believe is the name of the officer - is doing his duty by arresting him because he did commit theft, we understand that it is the dire circumstances of his society and his country that caused him to do this. His whole struggle and story is not only trying to lift himself up and overcome this system, but trying to one, make good on people he had hurt and things he had done in the process of this, but two, help other people that are also stuck in this system by hopefully coming up with a way to better it in the long run. I won't say overthrow it because he actively avoids that whole - R [overlapping]: Right. K: - part of the process in this story, but he is in his own way trying to get things to a better place. R: Yeah. K: I went through and just like, some ideas of antagonists who are not necessarily villains. We talked about Draco Malfoy - I will go to my grave saying that Draco is not a villain, he is first convenient exposition, and then an antagonist and an unwilling one at that. One of the ones I also thought of was Catra, from - R: Ah! K: - the first half of She-Ra, she kind of serves as sort of like a minion antagonist. R: Uh-huh. K: Her character evolves, and we'll talk about that as we continue to go through this. But she's an excellent example of just an antagonist. R: And again kind of like that rival thing - K: Yes. R: - like in anime or certain role playing video games, you always have the rival show up, and then by the end you are working with them to fight the actual villain. K: Another category is the conflict creators: people who are not evil, they don't have nefarious plots, but they're making the life of the main character unbearable. Mr. Darcy - R [overlapping]: [giggling] K: - from Pride and Prejudice is an excellent example of this. I threw the Lannisters on the list, and I'm sticking with the books - R: Right. K [laughing]: Not the TV show. R: So in this version, the Lannisters haven't managed to accomplish much yet. K: Yeah, exactly. Because, really, what are they doing? Are their motives evil? No, their motives are promoting and securing the prosperity and wellbeing of their family as much as possible. Now, they're doing things that again, evil being relative, we might look at this and go ‘oh they're evil.' I will choose the beheading of Ned Stark as a good example there. That's only evil to us because we like Ned Stark. R: Right. K: Because we look at him and see a good, just man who is being undone by his own kindness and mercy. The Lannisters look at him and go, ‘this guy's an idiot, and not only that he's a threat.' R: Mhm. K: ‘If we send him to the wall do you think his family is gonna go, ‘ah ok no problem, no harm no foul.'' Yeah, Joffrey's an impulsive little shit, who should not have done that and obviously messed up the plans of a lot of different third parties there, but from the perspective of the Lannisters he's right. R: Mhm. K: There was no reason to spare Ned Stark's life. R: It does start with the two incestuous Lannisters pushing a child out of a window though, so. K: Yes, and we can - that's a whole other episode about - R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: Well, trust me, I could do a whole episode about the evolution in literature, writing, and various media of using sexually-based components of character's personalities to demonstrate that they're evil. R: Mhm. K: But yes, this isn't to say that Jamie and Cersei themselves aren't evil, but the Lannisters as a whole are conflict creators. R: Okay. K: And within there they're all opposing each other in certain ways, but they're all kind of presenting a united front. R: The Lannister corporate machine. K: Yeah exactly. Casterly Rock incorporated. They're all presenting a united front in the promotion and wellbeing of their own family. There's obviously a lot of stuff going on there that we the audience know about, but pretend you're an outside observer in Westeros. Apart from some slight patricide - R: [laughs] K: - but that's okay, because that was the member of the family who we just barely put up with and obviously there was something wrong with him and we probably should've thrown him down a well a long time ago. R: Are you talking about Tyrion or are you talking about Tywin - K: Both, but from the perspective of the Lannisters, Tyrion. [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: You can recover from that one, because of course there was something off about him, look at him. Never mind that he's the smartest and, actually, most caring member of their family, but y'know. That's not important, apparently. I made up an antagonist category that I'm calling “general pains in the ass.”  R: [laughing] K: [laughs] Where they are not necessarily doing anything, but their existence is just infuriating to the point that it's creating conflict for the protagonist. The one that I always love to point to is Gary from Pokémon. R: Mm. K: Who's just Ash's rival but it's a very hilariously one-sided rivalry.  R: Right, right. K: [laughs] The other one that I think is very good is actually: Sailor Moon, Tuxedo Mask in the anime. Because he is also trying to get the rainbow crystals.  R: Right. K: In a pain-in-the-ass antagonist - I would throw Rei in there. R: [laughs] Yeah, there you go. K: Again, the anime - the manga did not go into this, but they're constantly fighting over who's gonna be the better this-or-that, and who's doing the better job, and again, it creates conflict for Usagi because Rei is hyper-confident and very good at this, and Usagi is not, at all.  R: Right. It has more to do with Rei just constantly criticizing her and making her progression slower than anything else.  K: Yeah, you'll notice there's a lot of overlap here because apart from being a general pain in the ass in that scenario, Rei is also a conflict creator.  R: Yeah. K: The last one that gets a little philosophical is the protagonist themselves. Holden Caulfield is of course the standout example here, but I would take anybody that can't get out of their own way and put them on this list. One of the thoughts I came up with was Anakin Skywalker.  R: Okay. K: More with the Clone Wars TV show as a better example of that, but you certainly see it through the prequels as well. Has a set of morals and code that he lives by that is in direct conflict with what the Jedi are teaching him and telling him to do. R: Mhm. K: And that's an excellent case study into a descent into villany by having a singular goal and taking more and more extreme measures to meet it. R: Like Draco, there's somebody that is coaching him and trying to lead him in a direction that he wouldn't have chosen on his own almost at any point.  K: I'm not sure I agree with that, because what we see Anakin do over and over again, his singular motivation-- and this is, by the way, his antagonistic component-- is “protect my friends and loved ones.” R: Mhm. K: And so he's willing to take more and more extreme measures that in some cases are going to get him in trouble, he's going to have to go in front of the Jedi Council and go ‘I'm really sorry I did that, but I did save Obi-Wan, so I think it all works out in the end.' And you've got Yoda silently screaming in his head, going ‘This is not what Jedi are supposed to do, this is dangerous.' R: Yeah. K: But then also, it gets him to a point where his moral code is coming into conflict with what is important to him. So, yes I killed a bunch of people on a spaceship, but I saved all of the Senators and the Jedi on it. Well, now I've killed a bunch of children because I thought it was going to save my pregnant wife.  R: Mhm. K: And we're getting to a point where he can't differentiate those two things from one another because in the end you're still saving something or someone important.  R: Right. But I still think that - K [overlapping]: Oh, yes, having Palpatine - R [overlapping]: that progression -  K: - breathing in his ear for the whole time was not helping. [laughing] R: Yeah, that was an outside influence that encouraged that progression. K: Absolutely, yeah. So, that's another antagonistic force - that is an external factor, people attempting to influence the protagonist.  R: Mhm. K: So, we talked a lot about antagonists, and as we said, most villains - not all - most villains are antagonists but not all antagonists are villains. In order to be a villain, you gotta be evil. You have to be a quote-unquote “bad guy.” And you've gotta be doing something that is bad, something that's hurting either a people, or an entity, maybe nature, or a planet itself. Typically, you've got selfish motivations here. R: Mhm. K: Sometimes you have no motivations, and we'll get into that, because the pure evil villains are one of my favorite villains. But, villains are working to destroy a heroic purpose or protagonist. They may not know that that's what they're doing, but they're doing it. Some villains go their whole story without realizing that there's somebody working their way up to opposing them, because their protagonist is such a little miniscule blip on the scale of this evil plan here that they didn't even know someone was opposing them. Villains, they have to be bad. They don't exist in a vacuum. Y'know, we used the idea of the mad scientist who doesn't know he's the bad guy -  R: Mhm. K: - until someone shows up to fight him. If that guy's just left in his lab making some little itty bitty Frankenstein monsters to run around and help him with his experiments and things, then he never leaves and nothing bad ever happens, and the new Frankenstein monsters are happy with their existence, he's not a villain! [laughs] However, if he's oppressing those little Frankenstein monster guys, or maybe they're escaping out into the world and doing bad things to people that they encounter, that then starts to move him into the realm of villain.  R: Now, what if he's in his lab and his experiments are destroying the planet outside the lab, but he never leaves and he never realizes, and the Frankenstein [ed.: monster]s are happy?  K: Yeah, so this is where it gets weird, because what he's doing is evil but he's not doing it on purpose.  R: Mm. K: I'm trying to think what the classification for that would be. An unwilling villain, essentially. Maybe more of an antagonist at that point. I'm trying to come up with an example of something where somebody shows up and informs a scientist or creator doing something that what they're doing is having a negative impact on the world around it and they had no idea.  R: There is an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where they go to a planet where the people on the planet basically take some of the children off the Enterprise because they can't have children themselves, and the crew is able to convince them that it's their very powerful computer system that's causing radiation that's preventing them from being healthy, and that it would happen to the kids too if they stayed, and so on and so forth.  K: Yeah, I'm trying to - like, this one isn't necessarily as good an example, but in Ender's Game, at the very end we find out that the conflict, this whole giant conflict, kind of began almost on a misunderstanding that the human population encountered alien life in the form of bugs that were a hivemind.  R: Mhm. K: And the bugs killed all of the humans they encountered not understanding that there was a life form out there that wasn't a hivemind. Because from their perspective, it didn't matter if a few soldiers got killed, they were just essentially vessels for the larger collective consciousness. They didn't understand the - R [overlapping]: Right. Individuality. K: Yeah. So, that started them as an antagonist, but then this war escalates and escalates and, that one I don't know if we can come up with “villain” and whether sides are evil, at that point, but. With villains, they might not even need to know that they're directly opposing the main character. The biggest difference between the villain and the antagonist is that sometimes, but not always, the antagonist forms more of a plot role. It's somebody to be there to create conflict, to move the story along, or to motivate the protagonist. It's somebody who may provide opportunities for growth for the protagonist as well, again through opposition. K: Everything is opposition and conflict for antagonists. Antagonists, they can be friends or friendly rivals of the protagonist, but they are a plot role, they are helping to develop and move the character and the stories along. A villain is a character type. This is a potentially necessary component of the story, depending on the type of story that you're telling, and they have a role to serve within that. They have to be the central point of conflict for evil reasons, to give the character something moral and good and just to fight for and overcome. If this sounds contrived, or this sounds pedantic, I don't know what to tell you because this is literature. [laughs] R: [laughing] Yeah. K: This is - you will find this across all of human history in literature, the conflict between good and evil. That is the central focus of it. And listen, what we consider good and what we consider evil varies from culture to culture, time to time. Heroes don't fit a certain set of criteria across all cultures. If you go back and read any Greek myth, and what they consider to be heroes, most of these guys were assholes. Like, really bad people. But they did heroic things, and they lived in ways that were acceptable to the ancient Greeks.  R: Mhm. K: So therefore they were heroes. The Greeks are really interesting in that they did not write what was idealized, but what was true. So even though we know that the way they conducted their society, the way they lived and acted, is abhorrent to us, at the time it was acceptable. Not only acceptable, but encouraged.  R: Right. Perhaps even seen as heroic behavior.  K [overlapping]: To that end—yeah. To that end, evil is the same way.  R: Mhm. K: I'm gonna throw one last monkey wrench [laughs] into this - the villain, as we kept saying, most villains but not all are antagonists, because sometimes the villain's the protagonist. The villain is only the antagonist when they're not the main character of the story, when they're just serving as the sense of conflict. But sometimes in stories, the villain, who is evil and is doing evil things, is the protagonist, is the main character that we're following. Two of my favorite examples of this are Light from Death Note and Dexter from Dexter. Light is a teenager with a god complex who I wouldn't even say “starts off trying to do right in the world,” because if you watch the series really he's just experimenting using bad people until he gets the plan figured out. But, for those who are unfamiliar, Death Note is an outstanding anime that I highly recommend about a teenager who comes across a notebook that is stolen from a Japanese death god and learns that the names he writes in the notebook will die. And he gets more and more specific about specifying “will die at this time,” “will die in this way,” et cetera. And enters into this whole cat-and-mouse psychological thriller thing with himself and the police that are trying to stop this serial killer that they don't understand.  R: Right. K: The whole thing turns into this god complex of him establishing rules of what he thinks are right and wrong and threatening the entire world with what would basically be instantaneous death at his whim if they don't adhere to it. So let's be clear, Light is evil. He is killing people because they're not acting the way he wants them to. But he is the main character and the protagonist of the story, and if you watch it you find yourself cheering for him outwitting the police, outwitting this detective. One of the detectives, by the way, is his father. And you're still goin,g “Come on, Light, you can get yourself out of this one!” Dexter Morgan from Dexter is another good example. Dexter is a serial killer. Dexter has kill rooms where he duct tapes people to tables, ritualistically stabs them, chops the bodies up, and drops them in the water off the coast of Miami.  R: Mhm. K: Dexter also has a complex set of morality that he adheres to, and Dexter is a little bit different because he doesn't want to do these things, he wishes he wasn't like this, but he knows that he is and there's nothing he can do about it. The books are a little stranger about this than the TV show. So he's channeling his awfulness into only killing murderers.  R: Right, and the rules of morality that he follows are not actually his morals.  K: Yeah. R: They were given to him. K: Yes. As a way to hopefully help maintain and control him. But he's still killing people. And he's still operating outside the justice system. He's very careful about gathering all the evidence and knowing “yes, this person's definitely a murderer,” but he's still serving as judge, jury, and executioner without giving anyone the benefit of due process. In his mind it doesn't matter why you killed somebody. You killed somebody. And it's coming less from a place of morality than an opportunity to be an outlet for his own base urges. Villains can be protagonists. Just because somebody is the main character of the story doesn't necessarily mean that they're good.  R: In fact, I feel a little bit better about some books thinking about it that way. [laughs] K: Yeah, absolutely. And, look, there's a whole thing you can get into with the hero vs. the antihero, and what is considered heroic and what is considered acceptable; god, I think there's been entire books written about this, with Superman as a core component there. It is very nuanced to kind of sort these things out of where the line is between hero and villain, and even more so where the line is between antagonist and villain. At what point do you stop being just an inconvenience or a pain in the butt that someone's gotta deal with and become somebody who is an active threat to not just the protagonist but potentially those around them as well? R: I know a book can have antagonists and villains, we've established several that do. Can you have a book with more than one villain?  K: Absolutely!  R: How do they not just sort of shrink down to become antagonists, then, if there's more than one? Or is it just because of their behavior being evil? K: Let's go back to another favorite of ours, Avatar: the Last Airbender. I would make the argument that both Azula and Ozai are villains. I think there are definitely people who would take Azula and put her more in the antagonist category; I disagree, she's evil, she has evil motivations. She also wants to conquer and subjugate the entire world and is willing to burn it down to do it. Hers and her father's ideologies and motives line up pretty closely. The difference is that Ozai sits in this palace and we don't see him for most of the series, and Azula's out there running amuck. R: So one can be a subordinate of the other, and they can both still be villains. K: Absolutely, yeah. And villains can work together, we got the superhero team ups on villains all the time. Dunno if you ever watched Venture Bros. - R: Yeah. K: - but the Guild of Calamitous Intent is one of my favorites, not that they're all teaming up against the same protagonist there. But yeah you absolutely can have multiple villains; one who is working under or for the other. You could have minions that are villains, as long as their intentions are evil. To that end with Avatar I would say Ty Lee and Mai are antagonists, not villains. Because they're minions who are kinda just there to do what Azula says but like, they don't necessarily want to burn down and subjugate the rest of the world, they're just sort of along for the ride. I think with multiple villains, a lot of times when you see that you're kind of dealing with an ensemble cast, and everyone's gonna sort of have a little area they have to go break off into. But not always, look at Star Wars. Yeah, Darth Vader was redeemed at the end, but you had two evil villains one right after the other, and again we're kinda seeing the same power dynamic as Azula and Ozai. K: To kind of round all of this out, villains are evil. And they usually have to have some sort of evil motivation or plan or action to match this. They might be so evil that they aren't even aware that everyone knows they're evil and is trying to stop them. Villains do not necessarily have to come in immediate direct conflict with protagonists in order to be villains. They can just be out there doing their little villain evil plan thing and not even know that someone's coming to fight them to the death until that person shows up to do so. They don't have to be directly opposed to the protagonist. In some cases, they can be the protagonist. But they've gotta have bad intentions. R: For the thrill of having bad intentions. K: Some of it can be for the thrill. The pure villains, those are my favorite ones, the ones that we never quite find out why they're doing what they're doing, they're just doing it. I use the example of Maleficent, from the original Sleeping Beauty movie, not the Angelina Jolie with lots of backstory and sympathetic character origins. Maleficent shows up, she's mad that she didn't get invited to the party but we kind of all get the impression that there's a reason she wasn't, but nobody quite knows what it is or what's going on here. R: Because we knew she would make a scene! K [laughing]: I think it's because she showed up and cursed the princess. R: So they saw that coming, you're saying. K: Yeah maybe. R: Even though the exact way to prevent that, according to Maleficent, would've been to invite her. K: The logic gets a little circular there, to be sure. [laughs] But yeah so, the villain is a character type, it's not a plot role. The villain is not always necessarily there to advance the protagonist or the plot. They certainly can, but they're not doing it directly all the time. R: Mhm. K: This is, villains are one of those sometimes-but-not-always-except-for-this-and-then-that-happens kind of situation. Antagonists on the other hand, they're not necessarily evil, they can be actually just regular cool decent normal people who happen to have a conflicting agenda with the protagonist. They just want different things. Last week we did MacGuffins. The antagonist may just be running around after their own MacGuffin, and for some reason that's causing problems for the protagonist. Maybe they also want that MacGuffin for a completely different reason, one that is mutually exclusive of what the antagonist wants; they can't team up there. Or maybe they just also wanna have the top spot at the dojo, and so they're gonna be in conflict with the protagonist there. The thing that makes the antagonist an antagonist is that they are opposed to the protagonist, and they will cause conflicts with the story's main character. It's a plot role, and it doesn't necessarily speak to the character's personality or motivations. They are there to create and cause conflict for the main character to either resolve, oppose, or fall to. R: So when I proposed this topic to you, I kind of thought of antagonists as mini-bosses and the villain as the big boss, thinking of video games and the way that's usually structured. So, this is unexpected. K [laughing]: Listen, an antagonist can be a mini-boss. It's all about motivations. R: But they can also just be that person living their life that has always bugged you because they microwaved fish in the lunchroom that one time. K: That person might be a villain. R: [laughs] Just wanna contradict me at every turn. K: I dunno, somebody who microwaves fish, that seems like evil intentions to me. [laughing] R: Look, they live with the consequences of that decision for the rest of their life. K: That's very very true. Anyway, so, Rekka any - R: Can an antagonist be the protagonist? K: No, those are mutually exclusive yeah. There's somebody who is not evil and they're the main character of the story, they're the protagonist. R: So they don't have a goatee or a mustache to twirl, and they're the main character, then they're the protagonist every time. K: Yes. The primary component for being the protagonist is that the story is about you, you're the principal character. If you are serving in an antagonistic role as the protagonist, you're still the protagonist, you're just a jerk. R: So when I get up and look in the mirror in the morning and I say, “Hey, butthead,” I'm still the protagonist of my life. K: You are both the protagonist and antagonist of your own life, yes. R: That feels accurate. K: [laughing] I think most of us are. R: Yeah. K: Well we said, a good example of an antagonist is the character themselves. R: Yep. Alright, I think I get it. K: We can always come back and talk more about it, because this one was fun to do some research on and get some thoughts together. R: So you would say that a book or a story plot requires an antagonist but doesn't necessarily require a villain. K: Yes, definitely. R: And the protagonist is completely optional. K: Yes, we're just gonna have a bunch of antagonists running around causing conflict for each other. Well, I think that's pretty much every murder mystery, so. R: So if it's a third person omniscient, and there is no main POV, we can have a book with no protagonist. Got it. K: I feel like you're trying to trick me into something but I don't know what. [laughing] R: I'm antagonizing you, I'm sorry. K: It's an important thing to do. R: As an editor you need to have your feathers ruffled every now and then. K: It creates conflict, and conflict creates growth. R: And plot. K: And plot. [laughing] But yeah thank you so much for listening everyone as always, hopefully this was helpful information, I know this was a lot of mincing of minute details, but - R: Yeah I mean maybe this was the episode you never knew you never wanted but - K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: - if there is an episode topic that you do know you want, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram @WMBcast, and you can also find us at patreon.com/WMBcast. And we'd love to hear your suggestions for topics or questions. If we have confused you in any way, then you can blame Kaelyn, and also let us know and we'll try to fix that. Thanks everyone! K: Thank you so much.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: Glitter + Ashes edited by dave ring Silk & Steel edited by Janine A. Southard  Grace's Links: Website ArtStation portfolio Twitter Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. R: Today we are talking to Grace Fong about book art. Now we've had someone on in the past to talk about cover art and art-directing a commissioned cover. However, I think Colin would forgive me for saying that you do not want Colin to do the artwork. Kaelyn: He would, yes. R: Yes. [laughing] Would you like to introduce yourself? Grace: Hi, I'm Grace! My pronouns are she/her, I work on the narrative design team over at Wizards of the Coast for Magic: The Gathering. I am also a sometimes-writer, and for the past five years I've been doing illustration work for various speculative fiction magazines, such as Strange Horizons, and some anthologies like Silk & Steel and Glitter + Ashes. K: Rekka this is our first like, real artist. R: It is difficult to get an artist on a podcast. I have tried - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - for this podcast and the previous one and it is a tricky business. So Grace, you live up to your name in showing up. G [laughing]: We don't like talking to people, we just like sitting at our computers. R: I completely understand, but doesn't mean I'm gonna give up trying, so. We've finally done it. K: Awesome. So I have been involved in some cover art not as the primary person but as the editor, where I have to look at it and go ‘yeah okay that kinda tracks with what's happening here.' We have talked a lot on this podcast before about what to expect out of your cover art, and how involved the writers are going to be in it, and the answer is typically not very, at all. So, when you're doing this, who is it that you're primarily working with? G: When I do work for magazines and books I'm usually working with the editor of the publication, so for the anthology it's usually an anthology editor, or for a short fiction magazine it is usually the art director of the magazine or the editor of the magazine. K: Can you walk us through the process of how you get started on this? They're obviously not coming to you with a blank slate, they're coming to you with a series of stories that may or may not have a theme. How do you get started working with this editor? G: It really varies, depending on the type of publication. So for anthologies, because they cover a lot of different narrative ground, usually we try to come up with an image that encapsulates the theme of the anthology. Like for Silk & Steel, I was doing one of the promotional postcards for them. We knew we were doing femme-femme, high fantasy, sword-and-scorcery kind of stuff. So I knew that those characters would have to be reflective of the book's content. Sometimes editors will give me a particular story that they aim to showcase for the publication, in which case I'll usually read the story if it's under 6,000 words, and try and come up with a composition that fits it the best that I possibly can. This is how I work with Strange Horizons. K: At what point do you usually come into the process? Are you typically involved right from the get go, or do they kind of wait until they have most of the story material? G: Usually when editors are doing their selections, they will wait until they have the written content first, because the written content is gonna dictate which artist they're gonna go to, to look for. Whose style best captures the feeling of their product? It's actually similar to traditional publication as well. The art directors at major publishing houses usually have a manuscript or summary for new debut authors whose manuscripts are already completed, and then they find an artist based off the existing manuscript. Some covers are completed beforehand, if the publishing house knows the author, knows the brand of that author and knows the kind of proposal or piece they are in the middle of working. K: You're gonna be sitting down with the editor, they're gonna give you a story that they particularly wanna feature, they're gonna give you an overall feeling or theme or - how much creative license do you get? R: I wanna interrupt because you just skipped like a really huge part: the creative brief. K: Yes. R: So what you just said, they're gonna give you a mood, they're gonna give you a theme or whatever, this is a whole step. Don't smooth it over like that. And this is something that actually Grace's got a little bit of a reputation for her knowledge on. So Grace I know you in, I believe it's November, are doing the Clarion workshop about creating a brief for a cover artist, right? G: Yes. R: So let's give this the spotlight it deserves! [laughing] G [overlapping]: Okay. K: Yeah, I've written a couple, I shouldn't have skipped over that, so apologies. G: I mean it's a specialized skill not everyone has to do them, so yeah. R: Well I definitely want to highlight it a bit, ‘cause you helped me with one - G [laughing]: That's true! R: What goes into the creative brief? Kaelyn named a couple of things, and this sort of forms the silhouette around which Kaelyn's question pivots, which is how much creative control do you get as an artist? So what's in the brief that you consider sacred, and what's in the gaps that you get to play with? G: So, that - K: Well first, and I'm sorry to cut you off - I'm sorry - can we say what - [laughing] R [overlapping]: I'm gonna interrupt you back! K: That's fair, that's fair. Can we kind of say what a creative brief is? G: Oh yeah, sure. So essentially when you are starting to work with an artist, an artist does not have the time to read an entire manuscript of 400+ pages. Their pricing is usually based off of the time that they're gonna spend creating your artwork. So you need to provide them with what is known as a creative brief, or art brief. And these are small documents that are very instructional, no more than like a page or two long, that explains the kind of image and feel that you are going for, for this assignment. The assumption is that you would have done your research and sent this brief to an artist that you think would do a good job for the publication that you're sourcing art for. So you're not gonna go to someone who does only black and white work if you want to sell your book with a big, bright, neon, 80s kind of cover. G: ‘Brief' is kind of the keyword here. You're essentially writing instructions for an artist. Don't try to lead them in using prose writing, tell them what they're gonna be drawing. It's a bit like a recipe list. So if it's a story about vampires and you want your vampire main character on the cover, you would specify that that's what you're looking for. Or, let's say you're trying to sell more literary up-market fiction, which doesn't use as many figurative images. Then you would maybe make an explanation about like ‘oh this book is about a woman's time when she was living as a child in Philadelphia.' In which case you would sometimes kind of refine that into a visual or item metaphor that you would ask the artist to render in a specific way that captures the mood and feel of the book, and leverages the imagery that's common to that market, so that it can reach the correct audience. K: Gotcha. Okay. So then you're gonna get this brief, and presumably dig into it. Do you ever receive a section of text, if there's a scene in particular that they'd like illustrated? G: Specific scene commissions tend not to be used for covers, because they're not very good at selling a publication. Scene work tends to be done for interior illustration. So these the the images that go along in the story; you look at these images as you are reading these scenes. But for the front cover you're trying to provide one image that sells the entire mood of the story to a particular audience. So in general you want to avoid using specific scenes, unless that scene comes in very early, because you don't wanna spoil the ending of the book. You only have one picture to play with for a cover, meanwhile with interiors you tend to have a series. You can do like a chapter header, like in the original Harry Potter American versions. K: It's funny you say that, because I was thinking about how I remember when the Harry Potter books were coming out, and there were always the American and the British cover versions, and everyone would be over-analyzing and try to pick apart ‘okay what's in the background here, what's happening in this scene.' But yeah because those covers were all more or less specific scenes from the book. They were a little abstract. G: Exactly, but it's - the keyword as you just said it is that they were scenes but they were abstracted. Actually tapping into that same visual metaphor that I mentioned earlier, for literary up-market, it's just because they're cramming so many things - what they're actually doing is creating one image that forces you to look harder at it to find all of those metaphorical connections with the story inside. If it has the hippogriff on it and the Chamber of Secrets journal and the Goblet of Fire, these are all singular items that you don't actually see in those covers how they relate to the story, but you know that this is an important item in the story. Ergo, which Harry Potter volume this cover revolves around. K: Do you get scenarios where somebody says ‘I want you to draw exactly this and I want it to look like this,' or do you generally give them a few different ideas or rough sketches and then go from there? G: Generally the things that I like to have control over are color palette, camera angle, the stuff that would be considered very technical for an illustration. Perspective. Whether things are shot from above, shot from below, because these are all illustrator tools that help dictate the mood of a painting. And the mood is actually the thing that I usually ask my clientele for. Mood translates to ‘how are we supposed to feel when looking at this?' Because feeling is very closely tied to genre. G: So, what kind of book am I trying to sell? Is it a horror book? That dictates what kind of colors, what kind of camera angles that I'm going to use. But if somebody tells me ‘I want a top-down shot of something-something,' then that feels a bit invasive to me because I feel like if I am an artist then I can select the camera angle to best convey the drama that you're asking for. But the things that are really good for me are the object or character or focus, and if there is a character the kind of action that is being performed. A lot of times we get character description but no action, and the action is actually what tells us what the character is like, and separates it from the design. K: Yeah so you don't just have two characters just standing there looking straight forward at the camera - G [overlapping]: Yeah. K: - dressed the way they told you to dress them. G: Yes. [laughing] Because basically that would be really difficult to create an interesting illustration for. K: Absolutely yeah. [laughing] G: It's kind of like going to the mall and you see the clothes being sold on mannequins. Like it helps sell you the clothes but it doesn't tell you what the story is behind the people wearing the clothes. It helps to have stuff like props, backgrounds, and actions to help convey like, ‘oh yeah if this character is wearing a t-shirt and jeans, is this t-shirt and jeans part of an urban fantasy? Or is it a part of a YA contemporary romance?' K: How much back-and-forth do you generally have with the editors you're working with? Like what is the first thing you give back to them? G: This generally varies per artist, including the artists I work with. So usually what I do is between one to three thumbnails or sketches that I hand in to the editor and ask them ‘what do you think of these directions,' ‘which one of these thumbnails' - which I then proceed to refine - ‘do you think hits the target best?' Then if it's a very large piece of work I might work on a more refined sketch and pass it in, or like base colors and pass it in, and minimally it's usually the thumbnails plus the finished drawing. So that's two to five back-and-forths, depending on the size of the piece. R: How much do you let the art director or editor you're working with go back to the start? I know you probably don't let them past a certain point, like ok you approved the thumbnail so we're moving forward, we're not going back to thumbnails after that, but what if they don't like any of the initial thumbnails? G: Yeah so basically most artists I know have what are called revision fees, and these are generally written into the contracts that you sign upon working with them. Basically saying ‘you get this many thumbnails, you get to give comments this many times, and if you go over those times there'll be an additional fee.' Because artists are basically charging - it's a service-based industry, and your haircutter charges you per hour, and so does your artist. And generally if they aren't happy with the thumbnails, then I would then incur the revision fee, but also I ask for further information. G: So, if you as a writer or editor aren't happy with what your artist is turning back, you need to be able to explain what you're not happy with. So you can explain like ‘oh I don't think this color palette is appropriate for this target market. Here are some images of other books that have come out in the same area that we think would be good inspiration for you.' The only time that revision becomes really frustrating, outside of a timing frame, is when your client says ‘I don't know what I want but I'll know it when I see it.' R: I knew you were gonna say that. [giggling] As a graphic designer I also hate those words. G [laughing]: Yeah. K: It's like okay I guess I'll just keep throwing paint at the wall and see what happens. G: Like revisions aren't bad as long as the client is able to convey what needs to actually be changed. R: Not a series of no-thank-yous. K: Have you ever come across a scenario where you've kind of had to take a step back from the project and say ‘listen, I think maybe I'm not the right person to do this.' G: Usually I'm good enough at heading that off before a project even begins. K [laughing]: Okay! G: That is something you come to with experience, you understand your style, your way of working as an illustrator, and knowing like ‘hey this type of thing is going to be too out of my ballpark,' ‘this type of thing is not gonna pay enough,' ‘this type of thing is just too much work for what I'm capable of doing right now.' That is kind of like you're responsible, as most freelance artists are independent business owners essentially. They'll usually say so up front minus extenuating circumstances. Like at work we've had people drop out because they acquired COVID in the middle of an assignment, so - K [overlapping]: Oh god. G: - there's really nothing you can do about that. [laughing] K [laughing]: Yeah. Have you ever been presented with a commission, talked to the person, and thought to yourself ‘I don't think they have a good enough handle on what it is they're looking for here, and this may just end up being a headache'? G: Yes. That has definitely happened before, ‘cause I don't have much time. So if I feel like the client either lacks the direction and communication to give me what I need, or if they're simply asking for too much, then I will usually politely decline them, within the first couple of emails. K: Obviously you're not reading all of these books and you're working off the creative brief. Is there anything in particular that you get these, you're trying to make sure you're communicating in the feel of the book rather than an exact representation of what's going on there? G: Yeah. So I'm not trying to recreate a 1-to-1 specific moment from the book. I'm trying to generate a piece that, as you said, evokes a major theme. A lot of times I'm asked to do character work, mostly because that is something that I enjoy doing and specialize in; I love character and costume design. Like you've never seen a spaceship in my portfolio because I'm really bad at it. K: I looked through it, I didn't see one. [laughing] G: Yeah, don't put stuff in your portfolio that you are not good at painting and don't wanna paint. Like people come to me because they're like ‘oh this person does kind of anime-inspired fantasy characters,' and so that's kind of like a niche that you can reach other people who like anime-inspired fantasy characters. So things for me that I consider important is, I like to know a character's build and ethnicity. G: Stuff like ‘oh the character's mouth is a Cupid's bow' or like ‘they have eyebrows that are waxed to a certain angle,' that's a bit too specific. Or like ‘they wear ten rings.' Because if you mentioned that the character wears ten rings, it automatically makes those ten rings really important. And you have to wonder, are those ten rings really important to actually selling who this character is? Do those ten rings have a narrative function in the story? If so, do you wanna include the rest of the character, or do you wanna focus on that character's hands and the rings, as a way to say ‘hey this is what this story is about'? Because it's very hard to include such a small item and such a big item together on the same image. There's a lot of physical limitations to representational art; similar as it is, it's really challenging to get a photo with both your shortest friend and your tallest friend at the same time and not have a giant gap between them. [laughing] K [laughing]: Lot of negative space and awkward positions. G: Yeah. R: Well this is where your control over the perspective comes in, right? So that would be a shot from below. K: Or above! Really above. [laughing] G: Yeah. So one of the things that I like to ask for is no more than two or three key items, I would call them, that differentiate who this character is from all the other characters. Like you can say ‘yes, she is a Black woman' or ‘yes, he is a muscular man of European descent.' But Aragorn is defined by Andúril, his sword. Once you stick that sword on Aragorn, you know ‘hey this is a high-fantasy Tolkienesque property.' So I'm looking for a handful of items like that, to help show who this character is and how they differentiate and help sell the genre, setting, and time period. K: Covers are telling people things without explicitly telling them that. Like you mentioned you give Aragorn his sword or a similar character, you're stating ‘hey this is a high-fantasy book.' If there's a background in it and it's castles built into rolling mountains, that's also indicating things to somebody who might be potentially interested in reading it. Do you spend a lot of time or give a lot of attention to trying to signal to potential readers that this might be something they're interested in, or do you kind of let the cover do what it's gonna do? Like how much do you try to work elements into it that are telling you things about the book without telling you things about the book? G: I usually try to focus on having as I said up to three of those key items - K [overlapping] Okay. [laughing] G: - because, as you said, castles are really common in a lot of European-based high fantasy. So you can leverage that castle, change it up, be like oh is it a floating castle that implies that there's a certain kind of magic? Is it a castle that's built into a hillside that implies another sort of magic? And so when I'm doing that I'm not necessarily looking at other pieces that are within the same genre, because the same genre-ness comes from the castle itself. I'm trying not to make a cover that looks exactly like every other cover out there, because this writing is probably not like every other fantasy story out there. K: Mhm. G: I'm actually specifically looking for those key items that differentiate it within its own genre. K: Any good stories, or interesting things that've happened here, your favorite piece that you've worked on or something that was particularly challenging? Maybe not just cover art but any commissions in general? G: All of my really funny stories are actually just from when I was doing random stuff for anime cons. I've had to draw a woman making out with Loki, but the woman is not herself, the woman is Kate Beckinsale. Fandom's strange. R: So you drew Kate Beckinsale making out - K [overlapping]: Making out with Loki - [laughing] G: Yes. R: And let the woman believe it was her? G: There are certain things you simply cannot draw. You cannot draw the flow of time. If you have a single image, it is very difficult to have anything that goes from step one and step two. [chuckling] And convey two images in a single image. K: Those Animorphs covers used to do that. G: That's true. And they had the little flipbooks in the back. K [laughing]: Remember that? G: Yeah. K: What advice would you have for somebody who, like let's say they're going to self-publish, or maybe somebody who hasn't really done this before but is looking to commission a piece of art - what advice would you have for them? G: For prospective clients, I generally ask that they do their research beforehand, essentially. Like working with artists, we have our own system, our own language, essentially, for technical stuff, for our materials, our use of camera angles, our use of colors. And to kind of understand what is within and without our control. So don't expect an art piece to be able to capture your entire story, because your story has some form of linear time in it, which art inherently will not if it's a single image. And that usually requires a lot of trust on the part of new authors, because this is their baby, right, they spent a lot of time on it and they wanna give it nice clothes. K: I love that by the way - G [overlapping]: [laughing] K: - they wanna give it nice clothes, that's perfect. [laughing] G: And like, a lot of us really understand this, but it's really helpful for us if you are to distinguish things that are and are not concrete. If you have a story that's based on music and you want your cover to celebrate the fact that it revolves around song, artists cannot draw a song. Unless you have synesthesia, you're probably not gonna look at a piece of artwork and hear music. So you're gonna have to come up with concrete visuals to convey this. G: So that main character, how do they produce this music? Are they a violinist? In which case yes, a violin can be drawn, that's very clear, very easy. And so just coming up with those small as I say key items, that would probably be one of them. Coming prepared with those and trusting the artist to interpret that - you can always say ‘hey, my book is about song, that is why I'd like to include these items,' but don't throw them into the wind with ‘my book is about songs' and - K: ‘Draw me a song.' G: Yes. K: You had mentioned revision fees, now again a constant theme in this podcast is contracts and read your contract and check your contract. Typically if you're going to engage an artist they're going to sign a contract with you. By the way, if the artist is not interested in signing a contract with you, and this is a custom piece, maybe that's not the artist to work with. But you're going to have a fee schedule, you're going to say ‘okay up front this is how much I'm estimating this to be but there are additional fees and costs for revisions, for changes, for going back.' K: We've definitely had to, with artists we commissioned for covers, go back and say ‘hey listen, something came up and we need another version of this, can you tweak these things?' And that's fine, it's just an additional charge. Is there anything in particular you would say to the people who are looking to commission an artist to just be aware of and expect, so they're not 1) shocked or 2) completely overlook something, in terms of costs associated with this kind of thing. G: Art is skilled labor. K: Absolutely. G: It's gonna vary per artist. Some people work faster, some people work slower. The type of publication is also going to affect the cost. But do not be surprised if an artist asks for a living wage, in terms of hourly money, because this is what they do; it's generally not a side job. K: Art is a skilled work that needs to be paid accordingly. There's a reason you're having to go out and find somebody you need to do this, because it's not an easy thing to do. G: Yeah, you're gonna be looking at prices significantly over part-time retail, because this is full-time work. Artists pay taxes on top of their stuff, and they are in charge of maintaining their own tax books. The high prices also cover their cost of living, the materials, 30% of it automatically goes to taxes, so those rates are going to be relatively high. A lot higher than I think what people expect. I feel like sometimes when people are new to commissioning, they'll expect it to be something in the price range of like ‘hey, I'm asking someone to in their off-time help me out at home with this, etcetera, or babysit my cat.' R: They wanna pay you 20 bucks and an extra pizza. G: Yeah. K: Well they're looking at it in like hourly rates, not realizing that it's not just hourly. Like you said there's taxes, there's material, there's - you don't get something then immediately sit down and start drawing it, you have to read some things, you have to think about it, you have to process, there's a lot of invisible hours that go into this as well. G: Yeah. R: You might spend - random number - 12 hours working on a cover, but that skill that you developed to create that cover is not 12 hours worth of skill-development, that is the lifetime that you have put into being an artist. So if anybody is thinking that ‘well the cover for my book is just a box I need to check off on my way to publication' - G: Yeah and that high hourly rate encompasses the work of emailing back and forth and sending the revisions and all the administrative stuff that the artist has to do. Artists generally do not have assistant teams, and they are not big publishing houses. K: The phone call was two minutes, it took me five minutes to read this thing, and ten minutes to write a response, but all of the stuff in between is additional time. All of your back-and-forth with your artist, all of the discussion that you're gonna have, all of the time that you the artist have to sit and think about this and do some sketches and stop and walk away and collect your thoughts, all of that is your valuable time. R: We've been talking about hourly rates. But every time, in my personal experience, that I've commissioned a cover, I have been given a flat number and then the contract as we've discussed talks about how many revisions or whatever are included in that number. I assume this is the practice of this person doing covers so frequently that they have a general ballpark of what they need to earn to justify what a cover is. But that's still based on a living wage that they're creating for themselves. G: Correct. That's usually it. R: When somebody gives you a flat rate it's not that this is a flat rate and someone else is going to just give you like ‘$85 an hour please.' G: Yeah. K: Well are you calculating your flat rate based on how many hours you, in your experience, know this takes? G: Yes, that's exactly what most artists do. Because clients tend to not want to bill per hour, because it's a single gig, most artists will give a flat rate based off their previous experience of how long something is going to take, which is why when back-and-forth gets too much, we incur revision fees. Because usually the flat rate is based off of our average experience of a client who spends this much time talking with us, and this much is gonna have to go to taxes, etc. And because flat rate is generally easier for clients and billing as well. R: Yeah rather than an open-ended number where they have no idea, and there's probably some paranoia that if you don't know the person well you might just keep billing them for stuff. G: You're gonna find contracts that specify hourly rates for longer term stuff, like visual developments or several character designs, or if you have a world that you're trying to build out for a TTRPG or concept art for a new video game or something like that. But for single one-off jobs, it's usually the artist will give you a flat rate number based off of their estimation on how long the gig will take, which is why sometimes these flat rate numbers look gigantic. But remember, again, that's based off of an hourly rate. R: Now do you ever get an email from a potential client and you go ‘oh yeah I better double the number, based on the way this email is written'? G: Yes that has happened before; the asshole tax is a pretty common practice - K [overlapping]: [laughing] G: - among artists. We are factoring in how long something is going to take as well. K: And by the way along the flat rates and the contracts and Grace I don't know if this is how you typically handle this, but when we would do book covers it was usually half up front, of the flat rate, and half when the work is finished plus any additional revision fees, which for us was always just a like ‘hey here's the down payment if you will to show we're serious and to get started.' Artists put a lot of time into this, and if you say ‘well I'm gonna pay you when this is done' and then they go ‘I don't like it. Forget it. I don't want it anymore,' that's a lot of time and energy that the artist has now wasted for no return. G: Yup. Most artists will not start without half to full payment upfront. I'd say like 95% of them won't. ‘Cause everybody has been burned very early on in their career by somebody who asked for work and never paid for it. So you only let that happen once. [laughing] Yeah. Always be prepared to have the money ready, like half the money ready, before the artist will start working. If you have a relaxed deadline, a lot of artists are really chill about just letting things kind of be like ‘oh I have this email of somebody who's interested' but it doesn't become real and doesn't actually get scheduled until there's money down. K: Artists have schedules. And they have open time slots and things that they might not be able to fit you into. How much of a lead time would you say they need to leave, in order to have a fully completed piece of art ready to go? G: I'd say at the minimum one to two months. I know people that can turn stuff around in two weeks, but if you're looking to get something done in the one month range, you're probably looking at a rush fee. Artists usually keep one to two jobs forward, like they have something but they're working on something lined up, and they usually have maybe another one lined up. And so if you demand something immediately, then that means they have to rush the next two. K: Mhm. G: So usually they will include a rush fee for that. K: I mean essentially it's overtime - G: Yes. K: - at that point, like I'm having to work extra hours outside of my regular schedule so that I can get to your thing faster. G: Yeah. And the lead time will very specifically vary per artist, because if you're trying to get someone who's like super super popular, who has a large number of clients already, you may be waiting like a year or two. Like. [laughing] K: There're science fiction cover artists out there that, like two years, if you want anything from them. Some of those people have incredibly long lead times on these, and their schedules are just full like over a year. G: Yeah. Like for me, I tend to be booked out about four to five months in advance, personally. But I generally, I will do rush fees and I'll also do smaller client pieces here and there that I know I can fit into a weekend. But again it really is up to that individual artist. I know how fast it takes me to complete a piece, but when I have 50 things going on, yeah it might take 20 hours to do, but if I have ten things that all take 20 hours, then I have a lot of time management that I need to figure out. K [laughing]: Yeah absolutely. When you finish a commission, when you finish a piece, how are you getting it to the person who is actually going to use it then and turn it in for the publication? Because a lot of these pieces are, they're very high resolution, they're very large files, and what does this look like - First of all what kind of a file is it, what does it look like? And then 2) how are you getting it, and how do you set it up so that they can manipulate it the way they need? G: So usually for clients I send a flat image, unless a layered image is requested - R: And let the artist know that at the beginning. G: Yes. K: Yes. G: Yes, layered images will usually incur a higher charge, because it implies that you will be editing the image afterwards. And so basically you need to buy some rights, the editing rights, from your artist. So that'll be a higher charge up front, when you write your original contract. Usually because I do a lot of web work, I just deliver a high resolution JPEG, high resolution PNG, and that's fine for my clients. For other major work especially if you need a layered file, PSDs, Photoshop files, are generally the common way to do it. In which case you upload a massive, massive file to a file transfer service such as Dropbox, or a lot of companies often have an internal file transfer upload - you log onto their system and upload directly to their system. K: If you're getting, especially one of those huge high-res layered images, you need to have a program that can manipulate it. You might need something additional on your end to even work with the image then. But also like, these files are huge. Typically they can't just email it to you. There's actually file transfer services as Grace mentioned, where you drop these and it's just in there for like two days. And you've gotta go get the file within that two-day period. G: Yeah. I think for major transfers I generally lean on Dropbox and actually just sometimes Google Drive. They're not exactly super secure, but like - K: [laughing] G: - few very people are going around sneaking your self-pub cover, like. [laughing] They'll just delete it after you've got it. K [laughing]: Well, you never know, Grace. Maybe someday somebody will steal something that you've done and leak it to the public, and - G: That actually would be really bad. [laughing] I work for Wiz of the Coast, if it happens then it's bad. R: Secure FTPs from here on out. [laughing] K: Multi-factor authentication in order to get these files. G: Yeah. R: So Grace, I happen to know, because I am on the inside, that you are - at the time of this episode coming out - you are the guest art director on the next issue of The Deadlands. G: Yes! Yes I am. [laughing] R: So from the other side of the table, how do you go about picking artwork on behalf of who are essentially clients here for their magazine issue? G: Cool. So, for The Deadlands I worked with Cory, who is the main art director, and I looked through the existing repertoire of work that had already been selected for Deadlands publications. Cory was very helpful too in kind of summarizing up the visual style of the magazine, as stuff that's more dark, more photo-real, lots of use of textured work, and I could see it in all the previous selections that'd already gone through. So based off of that, I was using my knowledge of my time in the art community to find pieces that I thought would resonate with that style. G: I was also provided a showcase short story essentially, for that issue, that they thought like ‘hey it would be good if the cover resonated emotionally with this written piece.' So I was looking for stuff that leveraged the visuals within that story, visuals of growth and forestry in particular, goes with a nice visceral story. They gave me the rest of the stories to read too, but as just more background information. And so I went to the portfolios of some of the artists that I knew worked in that kind of emotional field, like artists that did a lot of dark work, artists that do a lot of work in monochrome spaces, and so I looked in their portfolios for work to license that fit the forest-y theme of the showcase story. G: And so I took a couple of pieces that I thought were good, showed them to Cory, Cory showed them to the editor, and we moved forward with one of them. I contacted that artist; they spoke English as a second language so that's another thing you have to watch out with artists, so you have to be very clear and direct in your emails to make sure that you can be understood when your email gets thrown into Google Translate. And then I put Cory in touch with the artist for final contracts and payment. R: This is coming out on September 14th; the new issue of The Deadlands should be out on the 19th, so make sure you check that out, because you will see the cover that Grace picked, and the art that fit into the style, and I happen to know from behind the scenes that everyone was really enthusiastic about your choices. So you made a small mention, but we should probably highlight just a little bit - this is licensed artwork, the artwork already exists, you didn't commission something new, this is a piece that the artist already created either on commission or just as part of their creative process on their own. And so the artwork is available for license, which means that in a limited capacity it can be used again. Can you explain a little bit more about licensing? G: Yeah. So licensing is essentially buying rights to print an image, whether it be like a t-shirt or whether it be like your book cover, and it kinda goes through a separate route than commissioning. So commissioning essentially you are paying for a service, you're paying for an artist's time to make custom work for you. For licensing, it's closer to buying rights, and you're saying ‘I want to pay you x amount for the right to use this image in my piece. And generally artists are pretty lenient about licensing, especially if you are doing a non-exclusive license. It's basically free money for us, like you're paying us for something that we've already created, there's no additional hourly time that we're gonna have to handle other than administrative fees, which are usually more than covered in the licensing. For that you just generally email them and ask them if they have a licensing fee already, or you can generally look for standard licensing fees for products of the same type as yours. G: Most magazines and such will print how much they pay for licensed covers, in part of their artistic submissions and generally you can offer this rate for similar products within the field. When you are commissioning, though, these rights and usages will actually be factored into the contract. For example, if you want to be the only person who can use this work, you want the artist never to sell this work to another licensee, then this will factor into the cost of your original contract. The flat rate that the artist gives you might be higher, because basically you're saying they can't make future money off of it by licensing it to somebody else. ‘Cause copyright-wise, the image I believe is retained with the artist, unless the rights are completely bought out in the contract. Like I believe most contracts are they pay for the work and they pay to license the work, so an exclusive license would be the license fee but higher. R: Kind of like the layered file, like you know that this person wants to own this image and do whatever they want with it, so you kind of charge extra. G: Yeah. I'll charge even higher if somebody is like ‘you can never show this in your portfolio,' like you can't even use this to get more work later. K: I don't understand why anyone would want that. R: Yeah. K: Ok. G: It really has to do with intellectual property NDA-type stuff, so if they're like ‘this is a super-secret project, this is too early on,' ‘cause usually it's like artists get to post in a portfolio once the thing has been released, but if they're worried a project is gonna be canceled and they wanna hold onto the image in case they wanna use it for another project, then that would bar them from putting it in a portfolio. This is more common practice among artists who work in video games and animation, where their projects are constantly like revolving, canceled, there's a lot more asset reuse, yeah. R: Alright so. There [laughing] is a lot of information on licensing, on contracts, on payment structures. Be nice to the artist, ‘cause look at everything they're already balancing. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: So any final thoughts, Grace? Anything we haven't touched on that is a bugaboo for you, that you wanna make sure we warn people or - G: I feel like we've covered a lot. R: - invite people, it can be inviting too. G: I dunno, come to my class November 13th. It's a free business class on how to write effective art briefs. [laughs] R: Yes, that's through Clarion West. G: It'll be through the Clarion West, yes. R: Yeah, so we will put the link to that in the show notes. Hopefully the - is it unlimited spaces, or is it limited? G: There are one hundred spaces, I think like 40 of them are already taken. R: Okay! So by the time this comes out there'll be less than 60 available, so make sure that you go find that link in the show notes for that free workshop, because I think a brief is going to make you as compatible as possible with the person that you commission. Because you wanna make their job easy, so that they don't wanna charge you extra. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: And also so that they still love your project by the time they get to the final artwork. K: Yeah, so they don't have some sort of visceral shudder reaction every time the name of that book or project comes up. [laughing] G: Things also go around. Artists talk to each other, so if you give one a terrible time, then a lot of them will not wanna work with you anymore. K: Yeah this is something not just in art and publishing, but I think most industries - people who work in the same field talk to each other. Artists do not exist in a bubble, they are not all hiding in some dark studio bent over an oil painting that they've been devoting their life to - G: I mean we are. K: Okay. G: But we all just have Discord open on the side. K [laughing]: The room has internet access, yes. Grace thanks so much, this was great. I think this was a lot of really good information that people kinda dipping their toe in the water here may not be aware of, or know how to find easily. But speaking of finding, where can people find you? G: Ah, you can find me on ArtStation, at artstation.com/fictograph. It's like pictograph but with an f instead of a p. That is the same on Twitter, where it's mostly cat photos. K: [laughing] R: Alright we will put those links in the show notes too, so you won't even have to spell anything. Just go find a link, and go find Grace because Grace has a lot of amazing artwork to look at, and also might be the perfect artist for a future project of yours!

M: Thanks for coming! I've wanted to invite you for a while. Your first start-up GrafoMap and what you did with it seemed very interesting to me.R: It's actually not my first one. It's the first that succeeded.M: We could actually start there. Tell me which was it and why it didn't succeed.R: You might know, I previously lived in China for 7 years. I wouldn't call it a start-up, but me and Mārtiņš, the other co-founder of GrafoMap, used to ship pearls from China to Latvia and sell them. The product was really uncharacteristic for us, but we wanted to take advantage of me being in China and find something that doesn't have the vibe of cheap, Chinese goods and could sell for a high price in Latvia. So, we shipped pearls to Latvia. It didn't go very well. We had no experience. We sold them manually, by going to shops and offering them for distribution. We attempted to create an online shop, but we had no idea how to do it. I think we would have succeeded with the knowledge we have today. It all went off in smoke. I was still in China for a while and there was an opportunity to create a shoe business. There was a Chinese platform where you could design shoes with an online tool, and they would produce it. They have this unique production method, where they print the canvas before assembling the shoe, so it allows you to put any picture on it, and they assemble and deliver it. But the quality was lacking, the delivery was hard and long. I had drawn up the revenue model in Excel, but my expectations were too positive, and that too went off in smoke. Those were my two unsuccessful businesses. We learned some lessons, but it all fizzled out.M: And then you and your partners created GrafoMap, and you managed to successfully grow and sell it. And now you have a new start-up.R: Yes.M: But previously you worked in an investment office.R: Yes, in-between I managed to work in a risk capital fund, IT Capital. It's a Russian fund that invests 1 to 5 million. Not a seed capital, but series A. It was a very good experience, because I had the opportunity to work with series A investment rounds that involve successful companies. Not just dream projects, but companies with real revenue, with a real model that works. The only issue was how to blow them up even more, so that they work even better. It was a super-exclusive MBA program where you go through all these cases and learn.M: Your start-up was progressing concurrently with your main job. You didn't go all in, it remained in the background. How were you able to divide your time between your main job and this new idea that requires focus in order to be driven forward? That's the first question. And the second one is, if we could look at the things that as you mentioned didn't work, what were those pivotal moments that allowed the company to start growing into what it became.R: It wasn't easy to combine those things, but I also had a lot of time. Back then I had no girlfriend, no relationships, so I had all this time. I just had to sleep and continue working the next day. With GrafoMap we were moving towards automatization. The product was posters, but it had a print-on-demand delivery model. Our shop was affiliated with a supplier who executed all that. That saves an enormous amount of time, allowing you to focus on growth. The roles were also divided very well; everyone was clear on what they had to do. I was focused on Facebook and Instagram ads, content creation and conversion optimisation. We basically had to step on all of the rakes, try out all the things that don't work.M: Can you tell me about those rakes that don't work?R: What didn't work for us, I don't want to say anything bad, but we tried out about five agencies that were willing to help us with marketing and sales. Nothing of that worked. It consumed a lot of time, because we had our hopes up. And, while we worked together and the on-boarding took place, we ourselves weren't actively working in that direction. We thought that the sales agency will join in and handle everything for us. Now of course it's hard to imagine in which agency anybody would be willing to dedicate so much effort to one of probably ten client accounts. The other thing that changed a lot for us… We had a revenue model, an Excel table, all the formulas were put in, all variables, etc. And we entered all data monthly and kept tabs on that. But it was a tool that we used to look at the previous months and see the pluses and minuses. And then we got a bit more serious and tried to zoom out of our business and see what's important and what we should focus on. The average cart value and conversion percent – how many people out of 100 make the purchase. Those were the two main quantities. The revenue model made us focus on that and set some goals. Then we practically went back to our webpage offer and considered how we could change something to improve the conversion and improve the cart value. We started to do various bundle offers. Adding another poster to the tube cost us nothing in regards to shipping, therefor we started to do “buy two, get the third one free” offers, and that helped us improve the numbers. In the end the contribution margin was positive, which means that we earn from each sold unit before deducting the operating costs. When the contribution margin is positive, we just have to scale everything in order to surpass the operating costs and have a balance that provides a positive profit. And that's what we did. The moment we understood that one unit is starting to create a positive value, we started to push ads and scale it.M: You were three, four people in GrafoMap.R: Mhm.M: And you managed to get from the initial idea, when you hustled and had to borrow money, to a point of having a turnover of above one million when you successfully sold the company. How did you do it with such a small team of three to four people, how did you create a business with an annual turnover exceeding one million?R: Our goal when we started to create a poster business instead of something else was that we wanted to create a lean business model, so that we wouldn't put on weight, stay away from not only unnecessary operating costs, but also management. It takes a lot of time to manage all these processes if you have a lot of employees, etc. And on the product side we wanted to use the print-on-demand method, because we didn't want to mess around with products and order fulfilment. We wanted to design them, but we didn't want to produce them. We think it was the only way we could have scaled the business with the resources and knowledge we had back then and achieve good sales results. This philosophy also runs thought the team composition. The main core consisted of three people. I was responsible for marketing, Mārtiņš took care of finances and operations, and the programmer did the programming, of course. Whenever we needed we did outsourcing, for photography, web design. For social media management we had a girl from Romania, I have never met her in real life, but we worked together for four years, had weekly calls. She did a great job with managing all social media and influencer campaigns for us. I just called her once a week, and she told me how everything was going in 5 minutes and that everything was okay. She managed everything superbly. The process was polished so well that you didn't need to change much. That was our goal and we gradually achieved it.M: What do you think is the main thing that should be paid attention to when you're actually doing it, like scaling from one dollar to ten thousand, so that you earn the invested money back instead of losing it. What's your advice to somebody just starting out?R: In our product niche, that's a direct-to-consumer product, a very visual, decorative product. For us photos very incredibly important, like webpage design and photos. We had to show that we are selling a product of very high quality and that it justifies its cost. The perceived value had to be equal or higher than the product price. That's the first. The second is social proof. You have to show that your product is not a lonely page on the internet that nobody's interested in, you have to create a feeling that it's highly demanded and recognized, valued. You can do it in several ways. What we had from the start, on the page under the first fold we displayed all press mentions. We collected them gradually. We started with simple “featured on Product Hunt”, where we posted ourselves and it counted as being featured, like they had written about us. We put some niches and media there, at the end we got articles from Business Insider, CNN, Men's Health, Cosmopolitan, a full row of the loudest media. We put in logos of places that have featured us, and that leaves an impression. It might be true or not, but it leaves an impression. That gives you the stamp of quality. Somebody writing about you doesn't mean anything, but it works on a psychological level. The next social proof we had… you have to show up on several places and give people a sense of security. The next thing we did, we showed our Instagram feed on a page with all the influencers who have posted pictures with our poster. It featured very beautiful pictures, a lifestyle, beautiful Scandinavian décor with our posters, and smiling people. And above the feed it read “The proud owners of our posters”. It didn't say that they were influencers; we also didn't say that they are our clients. But if you come to our page, it creates a feeling that they are our super-loyal clients who are so happy with our posters that they take pictures with them and post them on the internet.M: I think that for many people here, in this small spot on the world map called Latvia, have the goal to make it in the foreign press. Instead of local media, how did you manage to get in the world class media? How did you package yourselves to seem interesting for them to write about?R: It was clear for us from the start that we should target the USA market. It's an English-speaking market, a single market, more than 300 million people. Europe also has a lot of purchasing power, but the market is very fragmented. In Germany you need German, in France you need French. So we targeted the USA. How did we get in these media? First of all, we had an interesting product, something new, unseen. It was to create a map of your design and receive a poster. That was cool. Somebody wrote us right after the post about us on Product Hunt. And anyone can get there with their product, but if you get enough “Up” votes, you start to get noticed by the smaller, niche influencers, and they write about you, whereas lifestyle writers follow these niche influencers. And that's how we got picked up by Dwell magazine, a top interior and décor media at the global level.M: You basically founded GrafoMap, scaled it from zero to a turnover of more than one million euros, and sold it. Did you take a break afterwards or did you already have an idea in your pocket for when you have free time to think about it?R: We should have taken a break, but I guess we're workaholics. Even before we sold it, we had already bought a domain and had started to program our next business. I actually had a notebook with future ideas. I had been collecting ideas for several years, written them down. We had various criteria for what we want to do, what we don't. Then we put everything in an Excel table, had a discussion, we considered which idea satisfies all these criteria and then chose one.M: Can you tell me about your criteria and thought process for selecting the ideas? How do you evaluate them, what's your decision journal?R: The criteria develop from the lessons learned, from the whole GrafoMap story. I think that, by reaching a turnover of more than one million euros, we exhausted ourselves almost to the max in this business model. Then we thought about why that happened and the main lessons. It created criteria for the next business. One example, customer acquisition made up a large part of our product costs. The money you had to spend to get one client. For us it was 20-25 dollars on average that you had to spend on marketing ads to sell one poster. One criterion was to have an organic customer flow. We don't want to spend money on each visitor anymore, on each potential buyer. The other main criterion was to have repeated purchases. Okay, we spend those 20-25 dollars on one client, but then he doesn't buy anything again. The customer acquisition costs could be higher, they are higher for a lot of businesses. About 100 or 200 dollars, even if the first purchase is around 50 dollars. And they do it because they know that the lifetime value is much larger. The client will return again and again. That's a great lesson, to have a product or a service that people constantly return to. Now, our new start-up Supliful is in the dietary supplement market, which is an enormous industry, 40 billion in the USA alone. It's relatively undeveloped in the online environment, the boom is just beginning. We thought that was interesting. Business model is actually the same, the Printful business model, but in different market. This business model has proven itself, we see how it develops.M: Can you tell me about your approach? You had an idea, and what were the first tests to validate your idea?R: You create a webpage as it should be. You present your product, set a price, put in a “checkout” button, and let people go and buy it. When someone pushes the “buy” button, you can provide a pop-up message saying “sorry, this product is out of stock”. Write that it's so good that it sells out really quickly, or think of anything else. But that's it, you have analytics and you see how many people actually push that button. You can make conclusions on whether people are willing to buy.M: One thing that's common to both of your start-ups is the design and visuals. In case of GrafoMap you sold design maps, designed by people themselves, so you sold an added value.R: Instead of showing digital mock-ups of how that product will look, it was important to show how the poster would look in interior design. We didn't just sell them a poster; it just embodied the idea. We sold them the aesthetics. Scandinavian, modern interior aesthetics. Now, with Supliful, we have a white label product that we offer to people. A white label dietary supplement that we offer to them for branding. We have products for various niches, but when a person sees a white product, it doesn't inspire fantasy on how it could look like. That's why we created an image gallery of imaginary brands, beautiful examples of how a dietary supplement brand could look like for gamers, for yoga instructors, etc. We create the vision for them, the visuals.M: At Supliful you work mostly in marketing, right?R: Yes.M: What are your personal marketing pillars that you base your way of thinking and work on?R: First of all, people come to your page and consider your product and service because they lack something or they think they lack something. It's important to tell the visitor what that is. What is the thing that's missing in your current state. Then you show where you could be. Everything that's in-between is me as a service. I offer to get you there, and this is how we'll do it. Giving the message is what's most important.M: Super! Thanks, Rihards! I find it very interesting, that you, coming from the analytics side, have added the marketing side, and then the companies you create are largely connected to the way you sell design or smaller brands that you help create in case of Supliful. That these things can be combined and that you need both of these sides, like you said, that you have to sell the space, the interior or the vision of where you want to end up, and at the same time you can't forget the practical, tactical things needed for arranging your webpage and systems, and that's a combination of both of these things. You need the consistency and clarity.Rihards Pīks:https://www.linkedin.com/in/rihardspiks/?originalSubdomain=lv--Subscribe to Asketic Podcast on:Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/73QSMYK46NHoHCytJYYmPZ?si=Mw4ZLISUSoueh9Es1pCLUgApple Podcast:https://podcasts.apple.com/lv/podcast/asketic-podcast/id1496922775YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQdekksSROS4PCxRV7aqT3QGoogle Podcasts:https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy50cmFuc2lzdG9yLmZtL2Fza2V0aWMtcG9kY2FzdA--Asketic design & branding:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/asketicstudio/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/asketic/WWW: http://asketic.com/

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: Unfettered Hexes Kickstarter Infomocracy Redbubble Shop dave-ring.com neonhemlock.com neonapothecary.com dave is @slickhop on Twitter and Instagram Neon Hemlock Press is @neonhemlock on Twitter and Instagram VOIDMERCH Neon Hemlock's Threadless shop Riddle's Tea Shoppe Hailey Piper Glitter + Ashes anthology Matthew Spencer, illustrator This is How We Lose the Time War Tracy Townsend Dancing Star Press Transcript (by TK) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. R: Let's see what happens if you drape the oracle cloth over top. dave: I have a thousand of those. R [laughing]: Yeah. Kaelyn: Speaking of SWAG. d: Does that help? R: Exhale. d: [wheezing] R: Yes. K: Yes! R: It's not just good for laying your cards out on. K: [laughing] d [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Okay! I'm gonna have to leave this in. d: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: dave, why don't you introduce yourself to start, and then we'll get going? d: My name's dave ring, I'm a writer and editor of speculative fiction. I'm also the managing editor and publisher over at Neon Hemlock Press. Which comes with a bevy of other, like graphic design layout, and - K: [laughing] d: - products, placements, whatever else I've come up with lately! K: Many, many other hats in different shapes and sizes. R: So the reason I wanted to have dave on the podcast was because it occurred to me that something that comes up pretty frequently, especially around conference season when we're meeting in person and around book launches as well, is that authors wanna know like ‘do I need a bookmark? How do I do a bookmark? What else can I do?' K: ‘Do I need swag?' R: Yeah, so swag. Swag - Kaelyn, I'm just gonna cut in to your definition and say that swag is an acronym for Stuff We All Get. So - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: To that point, this is not going to be all free swag. K: Yes. R: Swag implies that it is free, that you'll pick it up as you visit the author's signing table, or that you'll get it in the mail for preordering, or some little bonus bit like that. The person that we are speaking to today has taken book tie-in items and - what would you wanna call it? I don't wanna say paraphernalia, but I love that word, so there. You've taken it to a whole new level. And a lot of it has to do with Kickstarter, would you blame Kickstarter for this? d: Maybe some of it. And I like paraphernalia, the word that I am often drawn to is ‘ephemera,' but I like both. Depending on the particular object, maybe one is more appropriate than the other. But I blame Kickstarter for a lot of things in terms - R [overlapping]: [laughing] d: - of connecting with a lot of the people who are buying the books that Neon Hemlock's been putting out. R: So it's hard to say ‘blame' in that sense. d: To [unintelligible] - blame. K: [laughing] d: Yeah. But some of that's been driven from that, and some of it's been driven from just sort of nerdish excitement over different things. And then because I'm the one in charge, no one says no to me, so - K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: I just keep having ideas and doing the thing! K: Let's talk about some of the different kinds of swag, of paraphernalia, of - oh I just lost the word now - ephemera! I didn't really know that book swag was a thing until I started going to conferences. Like obviously I've been to book signings and things, and there's like bookmarks and maybe a pencil or something that they give out. K: But then I'd get to these conferences and I was like ‘wow there's a lot of stuff that authors are handing out, or publishers' - like everything from those bookmarks, pins - enamel pins are a big thing. I've seen people that showed up with special printed editions of the book that they only had like 10 of them and they were just handing them out at the conferences and that was it. If you didn't get them there, you were never gonna get this. It's interesting that this is something that comes around books, because you think well the thing you get out of this is the book. Why does the book have accessories that come with it as well? But I think you kinda hit the nail on the head, this nerdy-dorkiness of like ‘I love this so much I want to be able to have it with me at all times, not just on my Kindle.' d: Book lovers are already in this spot where you can - maybe you've read the book on your Kindle, but you want to have the physical book as well. So there's already that feeling that people have, and then sometimes it sort of extends to further things. Like I remember Dancing Star has made a lot of beaded earrings that match the covers of their books and some other popular speculative books. Of course you don't need to wear a particular pair of earrings in order to enjoy a book, but there is something sort of satisfying about - R: When you really enjoy the book, and then suddenly you need the earrings. d: [chuckling] K: Look at anything from TV shows to movies to video games, like there's all sorts of things that we wear and little accoutrements that we have that's sort of like a signal nod-and-wink to somebody else that's like, ‘ah yes, I also like that thing.' I was wearing a pair of my Sailor Moon socks recently at a house party and I'd taken my shoes off, and somebody was like ‘is that Sailor Mercury on your socks?' I was like ‘it is, yes. Yes.' R: And that's how you know your people. K: Exactly. Yeah but it is this thing of like, that's one of the - it's a signal, it's a secret language of how we identify each other. R: And this is speaking from more like the fan side of why you would want to display these things, in whatever way they are meant to be displayed, whether they're earrings or whether they're a pin, whether they're a sticker, a patch, something. I know that when I first started thinking of swag, I was thinking of things I have to give away for free, that are going to keep me in mind in a potential reader who isn't ready to pick up the book or not in a position where they can buy the book. R: Like I meet someone in a coffee shop and we're waiting for our coffee and we end up talking and somehow it comes up that I'm a science fiction writer and they wanna know about it. If I carry bookmarks in my purse, it's a book-related item, and it can have the sales copy on the back of the bookmark, or a blurb from another author promoting the book. And then you have some of the cover art on the other side and the title and my name, and therefore they have everything they need to find me later. And, if nothing else, they've got a bookmark that maybe they'll hang on to, ‘cause the art's cool, and then later they find it and they go ‘oh yeah,' and it's kind of like putting my branding in front of them multiple times. Every time they come across it, it might be one step closer to them buying the book. R: So that's one thought I had and why I chose bookmarks, ‘cause 1) they're relatively cheap, paper is or at least was a relatively cheap material, and so if your swag is made of paper it's not a huge upfront investment. You can maybe get 500 bookmarks for $75 or something depending on your printer. Book swag seems to have really - K: Oh the game has been stepped up. R: Yeah. I remember Tracy Townsend giving out little plastic-covered notepads with a pen built in, neat little binder, and I still have it by my bed. So I can't imagine that that was anywhere near the price of a bookmark. There's gotta be a level at which we go ‘okay this cannot be free anymore.' And some of that is related to the publisher, like is the publisher funding some of this? R: This Is How We Lose the Time War had pins, and they were giving them away with proof of preorder, and you picked your side, red or blue, and you got the pin. But the publisher I believe, and I may be incorrect, it may have been self-funded, but - the impression I got was that the publisher was providing those. And so I'm curious, ‘cause dave, you charge for some things, and some things are thrown in the box when you send out something. So like between stickers, bookmarks, and whatever else, what's your thought process of where it becomes a merchandise item versus a promotional item? d: Hm. You're making me think I need to have a thought process. R: Sorry. [laughing] K: [laughing] d: No I mean anything that's more than a couple dollars to make usually is in the… either I bundle it with something else or it's charged for on its own. Maybe one thing that slightly is confusing is I have this thing called Club Serpentine, where folks sign up ahead of time for everything I published in a given year, and those folks I give all the swag to for free basically, so. But in other cases like these tarot altar cloth-slash-bandana, depending on your perspective, slash microphone dampener - K: [chuckling] d: - those, I'm gonna give those away to the authors in Unfettered Hexes but I'm gonna also sell them on the website. And then like, I made an oracle deck, which is similar to a tarot deck, for Unfettered Hexes, and we're using the interior illustrations from the anthology as part of that deck. So again I'm giving those away to the authors but everyone else is paying for them. And there's a, I'm calling it an oracle coin, but there's a coin that also goes inside that deck, that comes with the deck, but otherwise you can also buy it separately. d: So the writers or folks that are part of Club Serpentine are getting things for free as it were, but they've either written a story for me or they've invested. So it's not really for free, it's still being part of the project in some capacity. Whereas stickers for me maybe is where the line is drawn. Stickers, I just like making them, there's a website I pay attention to that every once in a while will list a 50-stickers-for-20-bucks, and so I just get those every time it comes up so that I can dish them out like candy. R: They are very much like candy, I have quite a few stickers from both Neon Hemlock and Neon Apothecary. d: We like stickers, yeah. [chuckling] Especially when they make the luminescent ones, we're like yeah we like that deal! We like those a lot. K: [laughing] d: Maybe Rekka's right and it's also like Kickstarter campaigns because with the most recent novella campaign, I was like ‘oh I wonder if I can incentivize folks to back us on the first day.' So I had what I was calling Launch Day Loot, which I commissioned this artist I work with a lot, Matt Spencer, to make a print of a character from each of the novellas, and so I'm sending that to everybody and I also used that print to make bookmarks as well, out of pretty paper. d: So I am slightly regretting this, because it means that I can't use my fulfillment center to do book shipment, it means I have to mail them all myself. So I'm surrounded by piles over here on my side. So those are the first time I actually thought, these are like swag in the traditional sense, like this is free stuff that I'm gonna give you if you buy it on a given day. Whereas the stickers nobody actually expects those, I just have been getting them and sending them to people. K: Nobody expects the book stickers. … Monty Python? No? Okay. d: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: It made me think of the ‘Nobody's gonna know.' ‘They're gonna know.' ‘No one's gonna know!' K [overlapping]: [laughing] ‘No they're totally gonna know!' So let me ask this then, this is a lot of work, this is a lot of effort. Why do you do it? Apart from [laughing] - R: That's a nice smile, dave. d: [laughing] K: Yeah for those listening at home, dave has a lovely smile on his face right now. Yeah it's - completely, for joy, for getting things out there that show people enjoy your books and what you publish, that I think is fantastic. I'm sure it's delightful to run into somebody who's got something, a sticker or a bookmark or something from one of your publications or something that you did a special run of, but - How do you think it benefits not just you as a publisher, but then also authors? There's like you, who you're gonna do it on behalf of what you're publishing, or authors, who might do it on their own behalf. Why would you recommend book swag? d: I don't know that I have a metric or anything that would say that they categorically increase sales by x percentile or anything like that. But there is a sort of impression that I have that, just folks get excited by stuff? And giving people something to be excited about feels nice. There's something especially about writing where it often doesn't have a physical form that often, so. Like yeah you have a cover you can point to sometimes. Short stories often don't have their own art. It's nice giving things physical shape. K: I agree. Yeah. d: Like I'm not making a fortune over here making bandanas, I haven't become a bandana empire quite yet - R: It'll happen. K: Give it time, give it time. d: Maybe next year. R: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: So what was your progression? Did you start with stickers and then you just sort of said ‘oh I could also do this, and then I can also do this, and I can also do this,' and now you have oracle decks and bandanas and coins. d: Honestly, Unfettered Hexes, this anthology has really fed all of my most rabbithole impulses. Because it's all related to witchery, it's really - like the accessories are great - Any time I think of one it's hard to say no to. We went for an enamel pin, more than 40 illustrations in the book - These tarot cloth, the oracle deck, the coin, I think I stopped there. Well I made stickers, too. And then I made these mini prints from the cover, so. Part of it is I can't get out of my own way, and I just keep making things. And part of that too, maybe because I've got the interest both in the editing side and in the design side, there's no one here to tell me otherwise. I just keep making up - R: But you are working with artists for pretty much every little item that you come up with. d [overlapping]: Yeah. I do the design part but I don't do the illustrations. R: Right. d: Yeah. R: So the oracle cloth in front of you has some line art illustration, the coin itself I assume needed to be 3D - d: Oh the coin I made actually though. R: Okay. d: But I designed that with someone who then 3D-ified it. R: Yes. d: That's the technical term. R: It is. [chuckling] Yes. So you say you don't get out of your own way. I do wonder, do you go to any sort of ledger and say ‘Can I do this, with the budget I have?' d: Oh no. R: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: No. R: That gets in the way of the joy. d [laughing]: Yeah I only work with feelings, I don't work with numbers. R: [chuckling] d: No but two-thirds of these ideas are during an active Kickstarter, and I'm saying I'll do it if I reach this goal. So there was some math there. We just barely hit the oracle deck stretch goal. Because we hit $12,000, and then I said we wouldn't do the deck unless we had $18,000 and then we did, so. Whereas before I had lots of little stretch goals. R: Yeah the oracle deck is not a small project, as you said. Lots and lots of illustrations. Now if you hadn't gone with the oracle deck, were you still going to have the interior illustrations or were those the same item? d: Well, no they were different. So Matt Spencer, who did the illustrations for the oracle deck, he was on board to do some interior illustrations, but it was probably going to be like a chapter heading, maybe a couple of spot illustrations here or there, like we had a few things worked out. R: Mhm. d: And then once we hit the oracle it was like hey, what if instead, we just use every single one of these. R: [laughing] d: And you don't do the other illustrations. K: Since we've mentioned it a few times here, can you explain what the oracle deck is in relation to, and why you ended up making these cards? d: Sure, so an oracle deck is like a tarot deck. Rather than being a set number of suits and major and minor arcana, it has however many cards you decide. So we made this deck to go alongside the stories from an anthology called Unfettered Hexes: Queer Tales of Insatiable Darkness. K: A certain podcast co-host here may or may not have contributed to that. d: Yeah, and as my penultimate story in the anthology. R: I'm happy because I also love the world ‘penultimate.' K: [chuckling] d: I'm actually not 100% sure because after, you're technically the last story, but then there's a poem after you. So you're the penultimate… K: Entry? d: Entry? Mm, yeah… [thinking noises] R: Hmm… K: Contribution? d: But you have two illustrations, right? R: Yeah. d: You've got both your oracle card one and then a two page color illustration. R: Somebody's playing favorites here and I love it. K: [laughing] d: I - y'know, we could say that. But also, it's a really good story, and it perfectly hit one of the themes I really wanted from the book, which was basically friendship in space. [chuckling] K: [chuckling] d: It just nailed it perfectly, and so it was a perfect tie-in for the end of the anthology. So I couldn't resist making all these pictures of it. R: I appreciate your inability to resist your impulses. d: [laughing] R: It has served me well! d: [unintelligible] R: So the oracle cards, as you said there's - what is it, 23? 24 stories? d: Ah, don't make me say a number right now. I think we just totally made it up - R [overlapping]: Okay. I - d: We'll say 24. And then… yeah, 24 that are directly inspired by the stories themselves, two each for each of the story games that are in the book, four related to the characters on the cover, and then four related to different Neon Hemlock themes. I don't know if this is that interesting, sorry. K: It is! No, it is. d: [laughing] R: You broke my math brain, so I was trying to follow along and get the total. d: I told you, I don't do numbers. R [overlapping]: Yeah, okay - d: So if those don't add up to 40, just - R: 92! Got it! Okay. K: [laughing] d [laughing]: Just roll through it! R: Yeah. So you commissioned all this artwork. You had an artist create individual, unique pieces for you. You also have the cover, you also have two interior color illustrations. I have also seen chapter art designs, a textured placeholder page. I think you said this is like 200 pages longer? d: It's a beast, yeah. R: Compared to Glitter + Ashes - d [overlapping]: Glitter + Ashes, yeah. R: - it is. d: It's like 160 pages longer. K: Wow. R: But it really seems like a project that came out of great enthusiasm, which is delightful. d: Yeah, glee, even. It's just - [chuckling] So we'll see if - I don't even know if I can recreate this excitement with a future project, ‘cause it just has been really exciting. Although, my problem with making things is already going further with - I won't tell you the exact - K [overlapping]: Oh no. d: - nature of it. K: Oh no! [laughing] d: But the next one will involve 3D printed figures. K: Wow. R: Oh my gosh. d: So we're already going out to left field again. R: Yeah. K: Okay. R: You can't not outdo yourself. It's like every published book is a stamp in history, and you look back and you go ‘Pfft, that guy. [scoffing] I can beat that.' d: [chuckling] R: So given everything you've learned, having gone through these processes, for sourcing objects that are not typical - like, okay, a lot of authors could probably tell you where to go to find somebody who will make an enamel pin for you. But a bandana, for example, or oracle cards, a printed coin. You've obviously had to figure things out, do some research on your own, and get creative about things. d: I also had to marry a chandler. R: That's true! And we all appreciate that sacrifice. [chuckling] d: [laughing] R: I have a lot of Neon Apothecary candles around me just so you know. d: I just needed to make sure I could lock that down for future projects. K: [laughing] R: Yeah there are candles to coordinate with the stories in Glitter + Ashes, in the novella series that you put out. Aside from ‘there's no reason you can't do anything' - you can't use that as the answer - what advice do you have for somebody that's into all this left field kind of paraphernalia and ephemera, and wants to do something for a book? Either as a self-published author, an author that's promoting their work and it's all on them versus the publisher contributing to this, or to a small press, or even a Tor.com? What words of sage wisdom would you pull from your oracle cards to give them? d [laughing]: The new moon would tell us that - K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: Well, I think it's about scale, right? So I've definitely looked up different projects and then realized that they weren't feasible for me based off of my maybe modest scale. Depending on the project I'm looking to make like 100, 300, or 1,000 units of something, right? Which is small beans for a lot of projects. But, it's also far too many for some others. So like one writer, Hailey Piper, she just put out a horror novella. And her press did a limited-edit, handbound version that you could preorder at not a cheap price. d: But they only made those for those preorders, and then they're not gonna make any more. And that's something that, I know a local press in Baltimore that's since folded, but they handbound all of their special editions too. And that's something that is pretty special, and when you have it you know that you're only one of 20 that has one, so something like that could be an option for people. I think handcrafted things in small batches can be pretty meaningful. K: I have some experience with that, and yes. [laughing] d: Maybe you have to do it via raffle or some other way, maybe it's not a mass-produced thing. With the bandanas I had to price four or five of them, and the first three were like ‘what is this question you're asking? ‘Cause you're not really asking this very well.' [chuckling] K: [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] d: And eventually I figured it out, and then took the price from one and brought it to the more ethical company and asked them if they'd match it and things like that. If anyone ever wants to reach out to me and hear about how I made a particular product I'm happy to talk people through it. With enamel pins, Juli Riddle of Riddle's Tea Shoppe walked me through that at every step of the way. The candles, again, the husband, so I cheated that. R: [chuckling] K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: And the coins I can talk to people, it's all just sort of been shots in the dark. Reaching out to people and then either asking dumb questions or having someone who already asked them tell me the way to do it so I can get through them. R: It's a lot more communicating with people who have done something similar figuring out how you would do this thing, as opposed to like pick your merchandise and upload your graphic. d: That's what I meant about scale, too. Like the minimum number of coins I can make is a thousand, you know? R: Yeah. K: Yeah. d: So you can't do that on a whim, right. So there's different mediums that are harder. Although it's funny, I realized I'm wearing my fictional show t-shirt that's based off of fictional bands in a novella that I published. K and R: [laughing] d: And I have that available through Threadless, which is sort of like halfway between those swag sites and a custom thing, where it feels kinda nice but it is an image that I uploaded and put on there. K: I mean I remember when I did vests. Just to buy the vests is expensive, but we ordered just one, because I just wanted to make sure this was not gonna look like garbage before I ordered 200 of them. And I had to convince the manufacturer to just make one. He's like ‘you know it's gonna cost like $50 to make this one vest, then plus you need to buy the vest?' I'm like ‘yeah that's fine, I'd rather spend $70 now and have it not look right than spend 5,000 down the road and it's terrible.' d: A lot of places now will give you a cheaper deal for - I can't think of the right word, it's not prototype, it's similar. R: Like a proof? d: Proof, thank you. Yeahyeahyeah. Like with coins they charge you for the molds either way. So those start already at like 300 or 400 bucks, depending on the kind of thing. Whereas at least with bandanas, they didn't do a proof for me there, but they can do a really nice mockup ‘cause it's only one color. And they will sort of make sure that you know that bandanas are not perfect squares, and - R [overlapping]: Yes. d: - and your image will be slightly off, those little kinds of things to make sure that you understand. K: Have there ever been any pitfalls you've come across, anything where you're just like ‘oh my God, this is not at all what I should've done here,' and can you look at things now and go like ‘ah yes, I have come across this problem before, I should go down a different path'? d: I mean… yeah? But also, even when you think you've got something figured out completely, like I just had a miscommunication with my printer where they didn't get my proof approvals, and two of my books are like three weeks late. So… things will happen either way, I think it's more getting a sense of timelines and knowing that you don't need something ready two weeks beforehand, you need it ready like a month and a half beforehand at least, so that then you're building in a little bit more buffer. Always build in more buffer. K: Anything that you've ordered or tried to design or something and got it and gone like ‘this is not at all what I wanted this to look like, or what I expected it to look like,' or? You seem like you're pretty methodical and thorough along the way. d: Oh, oh no. No no no. K: [laughing] d: I have a box full of ruined prints where they - even though I proofed an image that was fully spread, they sent me one that was with four inches of white space on every side. And then you just have to email them and say ‘this isn't like my proof' and so, even when you think you've got things figured out they still can kinda get screwed up. R: So you mentioned scale, and there are, just to name the ones that come to mind are CafePress and Redbubble, that you have the option to create one-offs, or to create a store without putting in any overhead other than the time to set it up. So that is an option, but it doesn't create that immediacy of like ‘I'm going to send this to you as a special treat,' or ‘this is part of our relationship as author and reader or publisher and reader,' so it allows you to create things without having to go through printers, without having to go through all the proofing processes. I mean you might wanna order one for yourself anyway just to make sure, ‘cause some of those shirts, the printing quality on them is better or worse depending on the fabric, but - K: Some of the fabric is better or worse too. [laughing] R: I mean there are options for people who don't have the ability to invest a little bit up front, or a lot up front. d: Well that was how I started using Threadless artist shops, because I had like three or four shirts from Void Merch - I don't know if y'all know them - and then I was like wait, they're making these on Threadless artist shops. And I commissioned like a metal band version of my logo for Neon Hemlock, and I was like I want this on a shirt! And like at this point I feel like 60% of my wardrobe is Neon Hemlock tank tops, so. I'm not only a client, I'm also the president. K: [laughing] R: Yeah. d: Yeah. R: Yeah so I mean there are ways to do this from small to large, you can put up a CafePress shop. I have actually, I forget who I saw recently was putting up merchandise online through one of these print on demand shops, and people were getting excited - oh it was Malka! Malka Older. Dr. Malka Older. She had Infomocracy related t-shirts and coffee mugs and all that kind of stuff and people were like ‘what! Where's the link?!' and getting excited about it on Twitter. I'm sure that resulted in a few sales. R: And then there's printing or having your own SWAG made, and you take it to a conference and you hand it out as part of rubbing elbows with the readers and the book-signing group kind of thing. And then there's Kickstarter rewards where you kinda have to - I don't know who started the stretch goals, but you gotta love them but you also kinda wanna hunt them down and throttle them. Because now people go ‘well this is exciting! But they're out of stretch goals, so I guess they're happy now and they don't want any more money for their campaign.' d: I think that's like a fundamental misunderstanding with Kickstarter though. Like I've had plenty of people, like I've sent them a link to a Kickstarter and be like ‘oh well you made your goals, so you don't need me to pre-order.' And it's like ‘but I'd still really like it if you did!' K: We could use more money. [chuckling] R: If you support this now, you won't forget to buy it later when it comes out. d: Well it also means you have the money to print it beforehand - R [overlapping]: Yeah. d: - which is pretty critical. R: Yeah, exactly. ‘Cause dave's books are very well produced, they are not POD one cover texture, they are not the typical POD interior pages either, like the paper quality is - dave is hand-selecting these things, and proofing them, and showing them to his friends in the morning writing Slack. K: [laughing] d: We do a lot of show and tell. R: We had show and tell this morning, it was great. d: I keep trying to see if people can see like, can you tell it's embossed? R: [laughing] K: [laughing] R: So there's lots of stages. I don't want anyone to feel pressured to generate oracle coins right out of the gate. d: But I'd buy them. R: But dave's ready to buy them, along with your band t-shirts. [chuckling] And if you want inspiration, just check out the Kickstarter stretch goals for Neon Hemlock, the tie-in merchandise for the anthologies that he does. And it's always nice and cozy to think of a publisher that is enjoying the stories as much as the readers will, and feeling inspired by them to create stuff, and then having the authority for that to be official stuff is also really cool. But yeah, an author, a publisher, small press - K: It's very doable. It just depends on how much you wanna do. R: How much you feel comfortable doing what you're excited to do, and if you're not excited by a thing I would say don't do it. K: Yeah. Definitely. ‘Cause it's not gonna get better once you start. R: And it's not cheaper if you don't love it. d [chuckling]: And like I said, if anyone ever has questions about how to get started and wants to reach out, I'm happy to at least give you the initial walk-through. K: Well along those lines, dave, where can everyone find you? d: Neon Hemlock's at neonhemlock.com, and also just neonhemlock all one word at all the socials. And then my personal Twitter would be, it's SlickHop. S-l-i-c-k-h-o-p. Oh and I'm at dave-ring.com. R: So thank you dave so much for coming on! d: Thanks for having me. R: And all those links will be in the show notes in the transcript and everything. K: Check out dave's upcoming projects, ‘cause Rekka is in a couple of them. R: That's not the only reason to do it though. There's a lot of people - I am - d: [laughing] K: Absolutely not the only reason. R: I am thrilled to be on this table of contents. It's a very good table of contents. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: And the oracle deck I cannot wait to hold in my hand, I cannot wait to spill it out over this bandana which is actually an altar cloth, and flip that coin, and all the good stuff. I am really looking forward to seeing all these things that you've teased on camera in person, and I can't wait to see how you're gonna top it for the next anthology! d: Aaaaaah! Pressure! K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Well with the 3D figures that you've already - d: These are secrets! No one tell anyone, that's a secret. R: Okay we won't tell anyone, we promise. d: [laughing] K: Everyone who listens to this, you're not allowed to tell anyone. d: Shhhhh. R: Forget everything you heard. Except the good advice. K: Yes. R: Alright. d: And maybe my website. R: Yes. dave-ring.com, neonhemlock.com, and, hey! neonapothecary.com while you're out there. d: True. R: Give that chandler his due. d and K: [laughing] R: We will have a new episode in two weeks, and in the meantime you can find us at @WMBcast, you can find us at Patreon.com/WMBcast, and you can leave a rating and review on your podcast apps because we basically exist to breathe those in and smell the scents and not be creepy about it at all. K: That's a candle we need. R: Rate us highly please, and we will talk to you next time. Thanks everyone for listening!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: The Dancing Plague of 1518 MICE quotient The House of Untold Stories  storyenginedeck.com/demo deckofworlds.com Peter on Twitter and everywhere   Transcript (by TK) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Episode 66 Transcription Kaelyn: We're talking about tropes today, which is something that I think a lot of people hear spoken about in a negative context: falling back on using too many tropes, or stories following really common tropes. Rekka: And we don't appreciate that kind of shaming. K [laughs]: No, we certainly do not trope sh--see this is gonna be a problem because I was doing research for this and the word ‘trope' is difficult to say over and over again. R: Trope, trope, trope, trope, trope. K: It's, what do they call that, when a word becomes a sound? Semantic satiation. R: Yes. K: Yes. The word ‘trope' has become more of a sound to me and it's sort of lost meaning [laughing] at times but--So quick definitions, there's the actual word ‘trope' comes from Greek, because of course it does, it all does-- R: You mean it isn't a contraction of tightrope? K: It should be, that would be so much better. R: [laughs] K: A literary trope is using figurative language, like words, phrases, images, for artistic effect. So there's a bunch of different kinds of tropes that fall under literary tropes. Things like metaphors, irony, allegory, oxymorons; those are all considered tropes. Hyperbole is another good example of that, really over-exaggerating. The way this came about was, apparently, because it is Greek and it's from Greek theatre, of course, ‘to alter, to direct, to change, to turn'--all of these translations kinda line up with that, but they're considered an important element of classical rhetoric. Especially in Greek theatre where it was very dialogue-heavy, and so you had to sort of use all of these words and everything to paint a picture to explain to the audience what was going on. All of that said, we're not really here to talk about literary tropes today. They're an important story-telling device, though, and they're something that is considered, I would say, necessary to higher literature and writing and if you're panicking going ‘oh my God, I don't know all of this stuff'--well the thing is you're probably doing this anyway and not realizing. R: A lot of writers don't come from writing backgrounds and don't know the terms for the thing, don't stress too much about it. K: We're talking today primarily about story tropes. I think a lot of times you're gonna encounter this in a negative light. It's a frequent criticism I feel like that's leveraged especially against fiction, especially against fantasy and science fiction books and writing; in some areas of fiction it's actually celebrated. R: Right. K: You pick which trope you're gonna write. R: You cannot proceed without mentioning the other half of that, which is that some people are like ‘Okay, I pick my books based on the tropes I wanna read about.' K: Yes. R: Like, ‘Where's my time travel?' K [laughs]: Yeah. We wanted to talk about why that is. We wanted to talk about what story tropes are, and why they're not necessarily as bad and, in our humble opinions-- R: Not so humble. K: --not so humble opinions, as everyone thinks they are. So, definition: what is a story trope? It's a commonly used plot or character device, essentially. A story trope is something that shows up in literature and stories over and over again, to the point that it may actually be a subgenre within a broader genre. R: That's not to say it is an entire plot of a book that shows up over and over again, like the Hero's Journey is not necessarily a trope. K: No. R: The smaller pieces of plot or character might be the trope. Like the farmboy would be a trope. K: Yeah, the farmboy is a trope. The surprise hero is a trope. R: Prophesied one. K: Yeah, the prophesied one; time-travel to go back and reset the future, that could be a trope. The noble outlaw-- R [overlapping]: Right. K: --is a good trope, the secret relative, the-- All of these elements and story parts that are things you just see all the time in books. So if you're going ‘well, I like those'-- R: Right. K: Like yeah, of course you do! R [overlapping]: Yeah. K [laughing]: That's why they're popular! That's why these keep coming up. Anything from like, a secret legacy or an unknown lost child, unfound powers that suddenly appear at just the right time, or anyone being secretly special for some reason. R [overlapping]: [giggles] K: But these are part of what make stories fun. They're not the larger plot, they're the elements that make up the characters and the plot. R: And you can use them like spice in a recipe-- K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: --to come up with something that is entirely your own but tastes familiar and pleasing. K: Yeah. Now obviously, different genres are going to have different tropes that you see recurring in there. So before we get into why tropes are good, let's talk a little bit about why they're frequently seen as a negative. R: I have feelings about this. K: Okay. R: I think they're frequently seen as a negative because if you come to lean too heavily on tropes, they can make your story feel either derivative or predictable. K: I was gonna say contrived, yeah, but same. R: Don't you ever say that about one of my stories, Kaelyn. K: I would never say that about one of your stories. If you're leaning too heavily on tropes, if you're just pulling things that you know are popular or cool things you read in other books that you went like ‘oh wow that's awesome, I wanna write something like that,' you're almost not writing a story. You're putting together a sequence of events and characters that you liked from other things. R: Is that fanfiction, is that what you're implying? K: Ohhh, oh, there's a--God, I'm not ready to wade into that question! [laughs] R: But we should touch on the fact that tropes are major fanfiction fuel. Sometimes that's the entire point of the piece, is that ‘take this trope and apply it to this IP that I love.' K: Yeah. R: In that case, that can be the goal. To be, not that contrived but obviously, specifically derivative--not in the negative sense of the term, but like you're writing fanfiction, it is derivative of this IP, and you're applying this trope to it because you just think that would be fun. So people can have fun with it. K: Absolutely. R: And not for the right reasons, but it might feed into this impression that tropes are derivative or contrived. K: I think also it goes to storytelling abilities. If your entire book is just laden with secret Targaryens and lost bloodlines and magic powers nobody knew about, chosen ones and prophecies and it's just the entire story is that, it's probably not a great story, because it doesn't sound like there's a lot of room in there for character development and arcs and intricate and original plots. R: Having said that… K: Or, wait, other direction: it may be way too complicated. Because that's a lot of stuff to juggle. R: Well there's that, yeah. Having said that, I don't think you could say that there is a restrained amount of troping in something like Gideon the Ninth. K: No. No, absolutely not. R: So it can be done. K: Here's the thing. That story is set in such an original setting with such original characters, in original worldbuilding and magic system if you will, that I think it more than makes up for all of that. That's just my opinion, ‘cause you know Rekka and I can't get through an episode without referencing Gideon the Ninth and using that as an example of-- R [overlapping]: I think there's one or two. K: [laughing] R: But specifically when you talk about things that are trope-based, or fandom-based, I think you have to acknowledge that there is always an exception to this ‘be careful around fanfic,' or ‘be careful around tropes.' Like ‘don't put too many in'--or! Put them all in! K [laughs]: It's I think a matter of knowing how to use them. I don't think a lot of writers set out with the intention of ‘I am going to write to this trope,' it's just something that happens. R: Although I think a lot of tropes have inspired anthologies. ‘I want this kind of book, I want an anthology full of that kind of story.' K: Yeah. R: And it's one or two tropes smashed together, or it's a trope applied to a certain genre or character type. I think it's happening a lot, where people are looking for a way to find joy. And tropes really are like candy. K: So let's talk about that. Let's talk about why tropes are good, why these things that show up in every story show up in every story--it's because they're fun! R: It's also really good marketing. K: Yes. R: It's a lot easier to come up with comp titles when you're pitching a book if everybody's drawing from a fairly reasonably sized pool of tropes. K: Let's be clear here. These things can go in cycles. I remember a few years ago everyone was retelling or reinterpreting old fairy tales. I felt like that was just something I saw all the time. I will call that a trope, more or less, that is something that speaks to a specific reader and something that somebody's gonna wanna pick up, like ‘oh well I really liked when this person did it, I'm gonna try this book now as well.' R: So that speaks to what you said earlier about them becoming like a niche genre. K: Yeah, absolutely. Young adult fiction, especially within science fiction and fantasy, I think is constantly at the mercy of whatever trope is popular at the time. YA definitely fell to the fairy tale retelling trend at some point; YA books with a central character, usually a young woman or older teenage girl, who was not necessarily a prophesied champion but has to save everyone on her own even though she doesn't want to; science fiction, there's everything from time travel to artificial intelligence to very specific kinds of space battles and things, but! It speaks to a certain reader. K: There are these things that create these subgenres, and that's really helpful for readers, because I think what we're skirting around that nobody wants to say is, you don't want to put readers in a position where they're just reading the same story over and over, but I know a lot of people who just like to read the same story over and over. People who are very into romance novels. R: There're definitely a set of tropes that romance novels have to pick from, just like there are tropes that other genres have to pick from, and when you read a book that you really love, and romance often tickles a specific audience, they want more like that. Think of the first Thor movie where he tries coffee and he says “I like this beverage. Another!” and smashes it down on the floor-- K [overlapping]: Yes! [laughs] R: People will smash their books down on the floor and demand another because they read through it so quickly and it was exactly what they wanted, and they want to feel that feeling again. Just with new characters. K: I'm gonna qualify all this by saying none of this is a criticism of the romance genre. Romance writers a lot of times write to specific tropes: the marriage of convenience, or the marriage of ‘we didn't know each other beforehand but someone found this legal document that our families betrothed us'-- R: Or a fake marriage-- K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: --that turns into a real marriage. K: Co-workers to friends to lovers type thing. R: Only one bed. K: Yes, exactly, exactly. R: These are by the way coming into genre fiction, science fiction and fantasy-- K [overlapping]: Yup. R: Where romance is becoming more welcome in the books. K: Yes. R: Actual romance, as opposed to ‘you are a buxom babe who stowed away on my spaceship therefore we are a couple.' The depth of character is now allowing for these tropes to trickle in as characters get to know each other in a more interesting way, and less classic pairing-off. K: I'm sure most people listening to this know or probably even a family member that just obsessively consumes romance novels. I think back to my grandmother and my aunt having stacks of those mass market paperback ones that all have like, essentially the same cover just different backgrounds and clothes. R: Hey look, when we talk about your cover art, you need to look at what your industry in your genre is-- K [overlapping]: Yes, absolutely! R: --putting on the shelf and you want to communicate that you are making the same promise to the reader. So you have very similar covers in romance, ‘cause there's only so many ways to be austere while still posing two characters together. K [laughing]: I would say that the two genre groups of readers that will most vivaciously consume media are hard military SF and romance, who will just tear through these books and stories, which is fantastic. I have friends that will read at least one, possibly two, romance novels a week. A lot of them do the Kindle Unlimited. R: Yup. K: Because there's a lot of romance novels on Kindle unlimited. R: Well the two systems kinda fed each other. K: Exactly. But, they have their tropes that they like. Forced into a marriage of convenience, or stranded on an island somewhere. R: Those are the good ones. K: Yeah. [laughs] And Kindle will very helpfully keep recommending more and more of those to you, and I don't want anyone to leave thinking I'm putting down those readers for just wanting the same thing over and over again. Books are there to give you comfort and to spark joy and interest, and if that's what you wanna read, if that's what's making you happy, then that's what you should be reading. R: Right. And in that case, tropes are very very good. K: Tropes are incredibly helpful. R: And they're a marketing tool; the people producing the work, they know that their readers like this trope, so an entire world where that trope is kind of central to what's going on is going to delight people. K: Something that I see a lot now, and especially with submissions I was seeing this, was a really hard and concerted effort to avoid tropes. And it's hard to write like that sometimes. Don't get me wrong; there are books out there that are successfully doing it, that are coming up with really original stories. That said, I don't think it's possible to write a full-length novel without having at least a handful of tropes in there. R: Plus, if it's successful and it's original, then someone's going to mimic that. K: It will become a trope on its own, eventually. R [overlapping]: And it becomes a trope. I mean this is where tropes come from, they are not fully forged in the heart of a star. K: [laughs] R: Y'know, they're a process of people recognizing a thing they like in a book and making sure it's repeated. That's exactly what's going on, so you come up with a story that's completely original and you're so proud of it, well, maybe you get to claim being the first, but you're not going to get to claim being the only for very long. K: Tropes go back to basically the genesis of human writing. R: Mhm. K: I mean, we consider the Epic of Gilgamesh to be the oldest more or less complete epic story written down, at this point. It's very clear, if you've ever read it, that even though we don't have anything that came before that, there's elements of the story that were just commonplace storytelling devices of that time. There's other parts of it that then pop up in later epic tales that it's impossible to tell well, was this influenced by the Epic of Gilgamesh, or was this influenced by common storytelling tropes of the time and the Epic of Gilgamesh just happens to be the one that lasted the longest that we still have? R: Right. K: If you ever look into the literary history of Robin Hood, Robin Hood as we know him today did not start off like that. R [overlapping]: Right. K: He was just like a straight up highwayman. R: Bandit, at some point yeah. K: Bandit, there we go. He regularly kinda killed people to get their money. But, the character evolved as storytelling tropes evolved. We went from Robin Hood being just a lawless bandit who's funny and laughing while he's doing all of this to, no no he's actually the son of an earl who went off on the Crusades and came back and he's stealing from the rich and giving to the needy. Yeah Robin Hood was just straight up stealing originally-- R [overlapping]: Wow. K: --in all of these. [laughs] R: Until suddenly he wasn't. K: Until suddenly he wasn't! R: And someday in the future, those tropes might change, and the story of Robin Hood would be told differently, and everyone would think that was the best version. K: There's actually a lot of what we would probably think of as ‘modern' tropes that show up in medieval European literature. The special chosen one is very tied to Arthurian legend, which again, if you ever wanna try to put that together, go and--good luck. R [laughing]: You figure that out, we're not doing it for you. K: No [laughs], no. That's another good example of the evolution of these tropes. And then there's actually like conflict and everyone was writing different versions of Arthur but because there was no printing press at the time, and there certainly wasn't any form of mass communication, there's all of these different versions of what virtues and what values they wanted to highlight in Arthur, based on what was common storytelling at that time. I think that there is this push to write something no one's ever written, and the thing is you're never gonna do that. R: And maybe it's not even something you wanna aspire to do. K: No, and it's okay for authors to write a story based on the story they wanna tell, not based on like, ‘I need to be the most original writer in the history of writing.' That said, there are definitely readers out there who are always looking for something they've never seen before. Maybe you can write one of those! But, it's still going to have tropes in it. R: Yeah. K: They are inescapable. They are inevitable. R: Yeah, the level of trope that you include might go up or down, depending on your story, but. Don't revise your draft and like strip out everything that was fun at the time, just because you've seen it before. K: Rekka and I are obviously coming from a place of primarily Western-fueled literature. R: Right. K: Y'know, if you get into different parts of the world, different storytelling traditions, they will also have their own tropes. [laughs] R: Yeah, they're not gonna be the same tropes, so if you wanna totally wow a Western audience just go borrow someone else's tropes. K: Prophecy and chosen one's just all over the historical literature, there's mythical places and people with secret lineages, I think that's something you're gonna come across no matter what, because uh. Almost like humanity just really enjoys those facets of storytelling. So. But yeah anyway, when I would get submissions sometimes that I could tell there was a writer that was just trying to be really really original, to just stay away from anything that may have been done before. One of the things I always thought was, “I don't know how I'm going to sell this to anyone.” R: Right, ‘cause what do you compare it to? K: Yeah, that's not necessarily a dealbreaker. But it does make things very difficult. Because if you're trying to describe something in the context of ‘well do you like this thing? You may also like this'-- R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: --and you're not able to do that, it's hard to sell a book. R: Right. Exactly. And that's how the conversations always start, you got the elevator pitches, you've got the comp books. And those are the quickest way to get people's attention, and now you've cut yourself off from that. K: Yeah exactly. That said, nothing wrong with trying to be original. Just be aware it could be, depending on how original you're going, it could be a little bit of an uphill battle. Again, I will use Gideon the Ninth as a weird pitch-- R [overlapping]: [laughs] K [laughing]: --for that book, ‘lesbian necromancers in a broken down palace in space,' and don't get me wrong, that definitely piqued my interest, but you can see how that might not be everyone's cup of tea. R: And if it's the first original book to present this-- K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: --to a major publisher, they're going to say, “Who do we put this on the shelf next to? Where do we market this? We don't use these tropes.” K: Yep. R: “How do we do?” Y'know? K: [laughs] R: It takes a brave publisher to try something new, even if that new thing is built out of all these amazing fantastic fun tropes. K: Yeah, exactly. R: So you can be original, and still combine all these tropes, and just do it in a way that makes people go, “Sorry, what? Say that again?!” K: That's kind of one more thing that I would like to talk about. We skirted around Gideon the Ninth-- R: I don't think we skirted around it. K: Well--is just trope after trope and I said yeah, but it's very original in everything else. So if you have sort of what you'd think of as like ‘ugh is this story too cookie-cutter, is it too predictable and too tropey?' the thing you need to then consider is, alright but everything else I have in here, the worldbuilding, the characters, the technology or the magic system, is that original? You can make up for a lot by having a really original, engaging world that this is set in, and writing really great characters that we're cheering for and boy do we really want them to be the long-lost secret half-sister of the wizard-- R: Right. K: We're just cheering so hard for her, I want for her to have magic powers. So-- [laughs] R: Especially if you start to lead toward a trope, and you don't deliver on it, your readers are going to be pretty upset with you. K: Or maybe they'll go, ‘wow that's awesome. I wanna write something like that.' R: And then it becomes a trope again. K: Exactly. R: Alright, is there anything else tropey to discuss? K: They're an endless cycle. R: Get your innertube and just jump into the lazy river of tropes, and-- K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: And enjoy, just come around again and it'll be good. Just write your story. K: Yeah. R: If it's got tropes in it, that's cool. If it doesn't, that's cool. It will soon. K [laughing]: And they're not lazy, let's be clear! R: They're not! K: No, yeah-- R: But that's what they call it at a theme park when they jump in with the innertube-- K: No no I'm just, yeah. R: Okay! So, tropes are good. If anyone tells you otherwise just take your book somewhere else. Someone wants them. They want them very very badly. K: Also, being constantly rejected and not seeing the brilliance of a character is a good trope too. R: Yes. And, going for the tropes of podcasting, you can find us online @wmbcast on Twitter and Instagram, and also at Patreon. And if you would be so kind to leave a rating and review, we would love to read it on the air. You could also ask us questions at any of those social media-- K [overlapping]: We love questions. R: --accounts. That can feed a future tropey episode. Or maybe not tropey, I don't know! We'll find out when you ask us questions. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk to you in two weeks!

Track list - The Olympic Mix - feat. Dexaville ********************************************************************** 01. Cassini Division Vs Volen Sentir – Voodoo To You Vs The Great Escape (Dexaville Mashup) 02. Nox Vahn & Marsh – Come together (Matthias Meyer Extended Mix) 03. Rezident – Pure (Original Mix) 04. Chris Stussy – Seeing & Believing (DJ DJOKO Extended Remix) 05. Ian Otta – Happy Hour (Original Mix) 06. Legit Trip – Broke My Heart (Original Mix) 07. Jon Cutler Feat. E-Man – It's Yours (David Pen Vocal Mix) 08. Gabe, Marcelo, V.O.R - You & Me (Brisotti Remix) 09. Marsh – Heaven (Extended Mix) 10. Tim Green – Sea Parade (Original Mix) 11. Illumia – I Know (Original Mix) 12. Adam Stacks, LO – Sorry (Extended Version) 13. Nathan Clement, Brandon Scarbrough – How We Fall (Original Mix) 14. Angus & Julia Stone – Chateau (Dexaville's Deeper Vibe Mix) ********************************************************************** Summer vibes from Canada to Japan – enjoy soulful 60 minutes full of great music including tracks by Jon Cutler, Tim Green, Cassini Division and many more. ____________ Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/deephousecats/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwcUSe8m5Q1-qZcZ1w8MejA/feed Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/deephousecatshow Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deephousecatshow #deephouse #housemusic

Growing 100 followers in 15 days may seem like an unattainable feat, but today we're going to talk about how to do just that. My guest is Wren Robbins, is a veteran podcaster of five years, a podcast coach, and she was given the honor of being on the top 50 Moms in Podcasting from Podcast Magazine in both 2020 and 2021. She has curated over 175 podcast episodes on her own podcast called “Friends of a Feather” where she encourages others to spur them on in the gifts and talents God has given them.  Click below for show notes https://ruthiegray.mom/100-followers-in-15-days/   Wren: Thank you! I love that you sing.  We should have done a duet you know, that would have been awesome.    Ruthie: As I've mentioned, you are my very own podcast coach and the reason I've stayed steady for over a year. Now, we just celebrated one year, one of the Instagram Insider Hacks podcast. I believe I was your first coaching client, but since then, you've gone on to coach many more who have then launched their own podcast. So tell us, why did you decide to do that?     6 Steps to 100 followers in 15 days   W:  I started my podcast five years ago. I was a part-time stay at home mom and a kindergarten teacher, both part-time. I remember where I was on the road when I was driving and God was like, you need to start a podcast. And I was like,  Okay. I don't know anything about that.  I went home and searched Google many, many days and weeks trying to figure it out, but I knew God had called me to it. So I was like, we're going to figure this out.  I spent many hours doing that and I finally started it. I did not have a launch and didn't do anything right in the beginning. Also, I didn't even use hashtags on Instagram because I was scared somebody was gonna find me. Like, what? That's why you have a podcast. So that people find you and hear your message. I was scared, I mean, that was five years ago. Then I just continued on, but I was in a Facebook group for business coaching because everybody needs a business coach.       I just put a question out there. “Hey, y'all do I need to do a podcasting course or do I need to do coaching?” And you (Ruthie) were like, you need to do coaching and I might be your first client. I was like, okay. And then I did not follow up. You Facebook messaged ME. So that's how it all started. But then I remember as soon as I started podcasting, I would be listening to Business Podcast. I would be reading, like getting my hands on anything and everything about business. Up til then, I never realized why until when I got your message and I was like, okay, I think maybe coaching might be something for me one-on-one especially because I enjoy that. I'm gifted in that.  I know podcasting, I've been doing it for five years.  Plus, I can tell others what not to do because I did what not to do and I figured it out. So, that's how it started. It started with you Ruthie!   Accountability leads to growth   R: You gotta do what you say you're going to do! That's what we need. Like you said, it's good to have a coach because they kind of hold your feet to the fire and make sure you're accountable and committed. You've got to do it and if not, we'll come hunt you down, in a sweet way. Right? So, then you went on to become a client of mine and joined my membership training. You grew your Friends of a Feather account on Instagram, and then you continued to hit your goals and explode your Instagram growth. I mean, talk about a dream student. This girl here is the queen of Reels here. You just launched a brand new Instagram account after building the other one up so much. After working for the past five years on your original account, why don't you share with us why you did that? W: You know, it was totally a personal decision for me. I was posting on my Friends of a Feather account. I was thinking, okay, I know what to do, and I'm going to do it.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett A Ship With No Parrot by R J Theodore (MetaStellar) Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: We're talking today about writing with a friend. Hopefully a friend. If not a friend, then a partner. Rekka: Hopefully a friend for longer than it takes to write the project. K: Hopefully a friend after you're done. [laughing] R: Yes, before and after. Hey, even after is probably more important than before. Let's be clear that you don't wanna destroy a relationship, but you can make a new friend. K: Yes, absolutely. Let's talk first about, why would you do this? R: [giggles] K: Why would you want to - and, okay so maybe a little context first. I will admit I have never worked on a project that a single story had been written or contributed to by two different people. R: As an editor, you mean? K: Yes. R: Ok. K: So why would you do this? It seems like a difficult thing to do. And for context, Rekka has done this a couple times. So Rekka, why would you do this? R: Because writing is lonely, and the idea that someone else will work on a project with you is just like the biggest longest most creative sleepover ever. K: Okay! R: It's a good reason. K: That is certainly a good reason, writing is lonely. I think a lot of writers, their editor when they get one is the first time they're really having somebody to collaborate with, and to talk to. R: To go back and forth. K: Yeah, but the editor is not writing the book. R: I know! Which is unfair, honestly. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: I wanna know who I talk to about this. K: Yeah but you know what you're right, writing is a lonely process. There's a lot of time spent sitting by yourself just having to think. R: And having feelings. K: Yeah. If you're writing with someone, you get to share those with someone else. R: And shout about things. K: Absolutely. Shouting is a necessary component to that 100% — R: It's actually kinda how it gets started, there's a lot of enthusiastic shouting about an idea. K: [laughing] R: But you know what stinks? Is that you still have to write alone. K: Well and that's exactly what I was gonna ask you. So okay, let's go through this. You've decided I'm tired of being alone here, I want to also inflict this upon somebody else. So what do you do? R: [deep sigh] How do you find someone else to inflict things upon? So the first person that I sat down to write a project with was a friend, and we said like hey we should try this out! And we were both writers to begin with, writing in fairly different genres but still genre fiction. And we decided we were going to do a project and we said hey, it will be this, like we outlined it together. We - or we didn't so much outline it together but we concepted it out together. K: Okay. R: And then we each created a POV character as part of that concept. And then we wrote our chapters back and forth, so that the tone, the voice, for that POV character is consistent. K: Mhm. R: And so that you can have a character that's slightly unreliable, just because like you couldn't catch all the continuity errors, that you and your partner - K [overlapping]: Mhm. Yup. R: - created. It also lets you kind of reshuffle the scenes if you need to later, uh move things around a little bit easier, extract things if you need to without losing too many threads. But my other experience in doing it we did not, we had one POV. So, it doesn't have to be done that way. K: Tell us about the time you wrote one POV. R: I sort of went through my text file that I keep on my phone that's just like the little random lines and concepts, phrases that occur to me. And so the writing partner latched onto one and said, “That's interesting, let's work with that.” And then that was it, we just kind of went. I wrote something and sent it to him, and then I think we gave a week or two weeks max for each turnaround, so that one person wasn't waiting on the other forever. So it kinda bounced back and forth, and it would twist a little, like I'd get back and reread what the new words were and I'd be like oh okay, that's where that's going now. K: [chuckles] R: So it felt a little bit like improv, where somebody tosses you something, and y - the guide for improv is don't say “no,” say “yes, and...” So I think I had more of that spirit in the second project than I did in the first time attempting it, where um. As a kid I used to play with my friends and we'd get the toys all out and I'd immediately have a plot. And my friends would never adhere to it - K [overlapping]: [chuckles] R: Because of course they didn't know it. They would have whatever toy they were holding do a thing and I'd be like “No no no not that, have it do this.” So I can't imagine I was much fun to play with. Nor was it probably much fun to try and write with me on the project where I didn't have the spirit of “yes, and...” I had more like “mmm. That's interesting, how's that gonna fit back into where I'm taking this?” K: Well and that's a very good point, is I think if you're going to write with somebody it has to be a genuinely collaborative effort, rather than someone coming in with a story and having someone else tell it. R: Yeah and like I said, both times it was starting from a concept that, it wasn't like, “Oh I wanna write this book, do you wanna write it with me?” K: Mhm. R: So it was two people coming together each time saying “let's work together on a thing, what should we work on, do you have any ideas, yeah sure how ‘bout this concept, okay that's interesting what can we do with that? And then how do you wanna do this? Like okay I'll write some and then you write some and then I'll write some and then you write some. K: So like just examples off the top of my head, did you read This Is How You Lose the Time War? R: Yes. K: Yeah, so that was, so that's a novella actually written by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone. And I remember going like huh, I'm curious to see how they did this, and I went back and I think I read an interview or something with them, and sure enough what they did was they outlined a plot, and then they took turns writing the letters in it, and - R: But not only that, interesting point that maybe you want to cut me off and say we'll get to that in a second - K: No, no prob. [laughing] R: But they wrote it at the same table, part of it at least. K: Yes. If you haven't read This Is How You Lose the Time War, read it, it's very good and it's a quick read. R: It won awards for a reason. K: I - yeah, it won a lot of awards. [chuckles] But the entire story is told through letters being sent back and forth between Agent Red and Agent Blue, both of whom work for separate agencies that go back in time and change things to make history fit what they want it to be. So I remember reading in this that sometimes they were, like they were writing the letters and then mailing them to each other essentially, and letting the other person correspond and reply, it was almost a bit of role-playing. But yes they did write some of it sitting across from each other. But then another good example that's the opposite: Good Omens was written by Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett and they both - R [overlapping]: [laughing] I was thinking of The Omen, and I'm like, I didn't know - wait what?! K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: They wrote that? Okay, I've caught up, continue. K: Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett, one of them wrote a lot of the main story, and then the other one fleshed out a lot of it. There's a main plot that but there's a lot of other stuff going on, and there's a lot of ancillary characters that turn out to be important to the plot but they never really gave a clear answer if it was like an assignment list so to speak, if there was like a breakdown of who was doing what. It sounds like they are just very good friends who were both very talented writers and were able to do this. I do see a lot of times when there's two authors involved, it's two different POVs, and - which is a perfectly intriguing way to do it. R: The way I always imagine it is that it starts with some sort of conference call or in-person visit, and the bones of the story are shaped out there. And then, at least far enough ahead that people can get to work writing. Because okay we're back to writing being lonely, you do have to go back to your own desk - K: [giggles] R: - and work on the project from your side, by yourself. I have heard of people writing in Google Docs so they can see the other people's words appear at - that just seems like chaos mode. K: I will say that's how I take notes at work when I'm on a call with multiple people from my side and like, I won't say it's easy, it's not terrible. R: It's very distracting. K: [chuckles] R: So I mean that would be a tremendously interesting way to do it, I would love to try that sometime. But coordinating that puts you back into the whole like ‘we have to be at the same place at the same time' aspect, which is probably not one of the benefits that most people would list of co-writing, is that you write your part of it without having to wait for the other person until like your check-in, and then you see what's come up with the other person's side of things and then you go back. And I will say again, the first time I tried to do this, we were writing in a shared Scrivener file. K: Okay. R: This was before Scrivener had real integration with Dropbox. K: The dark ages, yeah. R: Well no but - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: I don't think it would work now, because back then two people could open the same Scrivener document. Now Scrivener will tell you sorry, you can't. It would have to go back to Google Docs or something, if we wanted to do it that way where we could see all the bones of the project coming together. The second time, we were just emailing a Word document back and forth that was updated and trying to keep them straight and not work in an old version. Which didn't happen, it was short enough that I don't think either of us were confused. K: How important is it to set down rules, so to speak? Of like, “Okay. This is how this is going to happen. Then we're going to, you know, everything must be tracked here, or you have to let the other person know if you're changing something to this.” I imagine it would depend on, are you both writing in the same document or are you each writing from a separate POV and then they're gonna be combined. How did you manage that? R: So it's interesting you ask that, because the first time, my partner and I actually wrote up a contract. K: I almost asked you, and I was like you know what, that seems like something maybe you wouldn't do right at the start of this, but - R: No, I think it's important. It's a good idea to have a contract that outlines who's responsible for what, how quickly people are expected to get things back - K: Mhm. R: How royalties are going to be split. K [overlapping]: Okay. R: Like if somebody's only responsible for the outline, in terms of word count they haven't contributed the same as the other person, but is it possible that you're splitting it 50/50? Either way, put it in writing, because that protects your estate later on from trying to come after somebody in arguing how much should or shouldn't be shared. It also can say like alright, this project is dissolved if the person takes more than two months to come back with their paragraph contribution for the week. K: Yeah. R: You know, all the questions that you just outlined can be described in there, including things like how are we going to edit this? Are we going to finish this project by taking it to a professional editor, like all the nitty gritty details can go, if not in a contract, in a project outline that can be referenced in a contract. K: All of the things we've been saying in the 60-something episodes of this podcast, now imagine you have to okay them with somebody else. R: Yeah. K [laughing]: Like - R: It depends on the personalities involved. One person might be like, ‘I'm going to leave all these decisions to you.' K: Mhm. ‘I'm just here to write,' yeah. R: Well ‘I just wanna write' or ‘I am - my faith in you and your ability to do these things is greater than my willingness to try and learn them,' and then the other person saying like ‘Yes, I agree to also take on all those tasks.' K: Mhm. R: So yeah. The first project, we drew up a contract and we said what the project was, who was going to - that we were splitting it, not necessarily like even chapters but that we were going to have two POVs and the POVs would each be the responsibility of a different person. K: Did you have an expected word count? R: Yeah. I think it was a little bit like a query letter, in terms of the way that the project was described. (I was looking for it but I couldn't find it.) In the way that the project was described and then in the way that we talked about the production timeline after, it was a little bit more like a marketing plan even. Including distribution: how were we going to release this? Was it going to be Kindle Unlimited or was it going to be distributed wide through all the retailers? K: You do need something like that, because let's say you start writing with somebody and you get pretty far down the path and it turns out you fundamentally disagree on what to do with the book. Well each of you have the files now presumably, [laughing] so - R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: What are you gonna do? R: You have to trust that the other person's not going to run off with it. Also, that's what the contract is, to ensure that they don't. K: Did you sit down and kind of come up with some agreed upon stylistic choices? R: In the sense of what? Like, comp title kind of things? K: Not just comp title, but stylistic in terms of writing. Granted if you're writing two different POVs you can attribute these things to a character, but like did you decide ‘Okay this is going to be descriptive, we're going to really emphasize the natural beauty of the setting,' or ‘we're going to make sure the characters always take note of a certain thing so that we can note it to the reader.' How'd you handle worldbuilding? How did you come to terms with all of the things that an author typically has to decide on their own? R: We did not, I think in either case really, get into that. K: Okay. R: We knew enough of each other's writing to sort of know what we were getting into. K: Yeah, and that's a very good point by the way; probably don't try to collaborate on a writing project with somebody whose writing you've never read before. R: Yeah. At the very least read some before you finalize all your contracts. K: Yes. I'd say that's important and, I'm not saying this to be mean or flippant, the last thing you want is to get started on a project and find out the person's not actually a very good writer. R: Or that your styles just don't make for good story together. You are not going to find a writer who writes exactly like you; don't assume that you aren't going to come up against like ‘Oh, I don't actually enjoy reading this from you.' K: Yeah. R: You want to challenge yourself and see how you can make your two styles fit together. Because if you're not growing as you work on anything then why bother? But you also don't want it to be such a challenge that you cannot enjoy the process. K: So what do you do when you have disagreements about something? R: Well hopefully the answer is something that you've already figured out in the contract, like if you're - K: Okay. R: It's kinda like when a company goes back to their mission statement to figure out how to proceed with something. K: What about if it's a story-related thing that's not necessarily outlined in the contract? R: Give me an example. K: Alright so, let's say in the end of the fifth season of Buffy there was like a fight in the writers' room about - uh, spoiler for a show that's been off the air for about 15 years, everyone - ‘we think Buffy maybe needs to die,' ‘no there's no reason she has to die,' and then… there's a fight! [chuckles] R: Hopefully your contract has a walking clause. Something that says like alright, if at some point the parties can't decide on where the story should go, they can walk away, and at that point maybe they decide, or maybe in your contract it should say, that you need to pick who gets to take the story with them - K [overlapping]: Mhm, yeah. R: - if somebody still wants to write it. ‘Cause that's something that wasn't in the contract for my first one, and part of me - like I wouldn't write the same story -  K: Mhm. R: We never finished it. I wouldn't write the same story but there are elements I'd like to take, but they're elements that would be recognizable enough. K: Mhm. R: So, how should we have proceeded? Probably one of us should - well at this point I could write to the person and say, “Hey, I wanna write this story, do you mind if I write this story on my own, not giving you any credit?” K [chuckles]: Yeah. Or if you do, how do I compensate you accordingly? R: Or just an acknowledgement, like I'll acknowledge that the story started, and then y'know life happened, we didn't finish it. K: Well that's a form of compensation. R: Yeah. Acknowledgement is like credit in a certain way, without - but again, in that email you say, “Okay cool.” And they write back and they're like, “Fine,” and I say, “Great. Here's something I'd like you to sign, just to say that like you are aware that I am writing this, and that I'm writing it all on my own -” K [overlapping]: Yup. R: “Using new material. And that, the only thing you expect is to get a nod in the acknowledgements.” That's something that you can do if you get to the point where you disagree on something and there's no - it's like if you're to the point of fisticuffs you should probably walk away, or take a break. Are you so stressed about either the project or whatever that you're just lashing out, or is this actually a problem, this relationship that you're working in? K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: So, you know, be an adult. K: And listen, by the way. I have writers that get, I mean, so defensive, about just - no one that I've worked with on a published book, but people I've talked to, people who've asked for advice and different things. And they're so defensive about the story to an editor. Imagine, again, trying to write this with another person. R: That's the thing is you really have to gauge how well you're going to work together with this person. K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: Do you just wanna do stuff because you're friends and you like spending time with them? That might not be enough to go on for the amount of, like think of the anguish that you put into a novel project in the first place. You would think that co-authoring means you share that anguish, but you actually just each have your own anguish - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - which might make you less compatible than you are at the start. K: My grandmother always says to never marry somebody before you've taken a three-day bus trip across country with them. I kind of feel like with writers it's like alright, I wanna see you two cook dinner together in the same kitchen, making the same dish. Like you, you have to collectively present me with one dish. And let's see how that goes. [laughing] R: Are you following a recipe or are you creating a recipe? K: You have to decide. R: Hm. K: But you actually, you kinda touched on something interesting there, which is the other form of collaborative writing that I've seen in query letters a lot, you said “Is this just your friend that you wanna hang out with and spend time with?” And where I get a lot of those from is roleplaying games. R: Mhm. K: There's a lot of thought and worldbuilding and character development and everything that goes into those. The, I hesitate to even call them players, by that point they're basically writers, put a lot of time and effort into developing these characters and these worlds and things and then they interact with other people who help them contribute and grow, and that is a way that I've seen some collaborative writing come to fruition is, start out as a game. R: You have to be a very caring person to be a good gamemaster, in that you have to care about the experience of the people that you are essentially having a collaborative worldbuilding experience with. You have to want them to have fun, or they're not going to have fun. K [overlapping]: [chuckles] R: You have to have set up different paths that they can choose to take so that they have some agency in the experience as well, and you have to be willing to say ‘yes and' rather than ‘no.' And you have to be willing to accept that sort of spontaneity. The best path forward may not always be the one you expect, but if you care about working with someone in a way that 1) doesn't negate their contribution - K: Mhm. R: - and make it seem like ugh, well that almost matches what I would've done; like it's not about anybody looking for permission from somebody else, it's unwinding this coil of like where is this going, and unwinding it together. So we mentioned before that there are experiences where somebody writes the outline and somebody else writes the story to the outline, and I think that's another balancing act because as somebody writes to an outline that they've made for themselves, they feel free to deviate from it. And I imagine that also happens when they write to an outline that somebody else has written. But also, writing an outline doesn't quite transmit everything that goes into a story. It's very hard to imagine what a person intended for an entire scene based on a single sentence or a couple of sentences. So there's gotta be a lot of letting go; if one person is handling one creative step and another person is handling another creative step, again that contract but also your expectations have to be that like that first person is going to be letting go of a lot of control of the story if they're not going to participate in the writing of it. K: It certainly is an exercise in having to give up and trust somebody with something that you created and love. R: It's interpersonal relationships on a scale that usually you can separate from your personal creative self, and you would expect to put this much work into a business project or a marriage or opening a business with somebody - and again like, have a contract. Yeah you are putting that much effort into this. K: You're opening a business with someone in a respect; you're creating a product. R: Yeah we're creating a product here that can be sold and resold and rights have to be licensed and - K: Mhm. R: You have to envision the success of this to really get a grip on all the things you have to consider. You can't just ‘oh haha this'll be fun' if you are going to publish it, because you never know where it's gonna go. K: Look at some of the greatest duos of what-have-you that fell apart because of differences in ideas. R: Mhm. I mean here are the advice like, never work for friends, watch out, you'll ruin your relationship if you try to do this, I mean that's kind of true of this if you don't go into it with the right mindframe. K: So now that we've scared the hell out of everybody and never gonna wanna write a collaborative project together. What were some of the fun things about it? R: The brainstorming at the beginning was definitely really fun. Sit down with somebody that you like and you talk about what ideas might come out of something, depending on your level of prepwork, you might've had a really long conversation or you have lots of these little visual pieces that you're gonna see how you're gonna string together. Or you might have just kinda said ‘well let's just see where it goes.' K: Mhm. R: Which I think was my experience the second time, once we picked that concept out of my Word doc of random ideas that I've had. K [laughing]: By the way, if you're listening to this and you wanna be a writer and you don't have a Word document of random ideas you've had please start one immediately. R: Hopefully if you're called to be a writer and you go ‘oh, you mean I should've been writing all those down,' as opposed to like ‘oh I've gotta start coming up with ideas' - like I think if you're at the point where you don't even have ideas - K: I'm saying for ideas you've already had. R: Okay. K: You need to have a good place to keep them. R: Jot them down. But yeah, so we picked something out of my book of ideas. If it's a collaborative effort between friends, it might've even been something like that started as a Twitter conversation and now you're writing it. So wherever you get your idea from, it usually starts with social connection, friendship, enthusiasm, and hopefully it's all mutual. And then you go to the, ‘okay, are we really doing this?' K: [giggles] R: ‘Let's start the contract.' If the person's not comfortable entering into a contract with you, then that's a red flag right there, that one of you is uncomfortable with what it's gonna take to finish this project out. Because the contract is the thing that's gonna see you through it all, so if you stop and you refuse to move forward at that point, that saves everybody some trouble. But the fun things about it are that starting moment, where the excitement is just zapping back and forth between the two of you, whether online or in person. K: Mhm. R: And then seeing what the other person wrote every week and getting to respond to it in like kind. It's a little bit like writing fanfiction, in real time, with an author. K: [laughing] R: And then the other person can feel the exact same way, that they are the one writing the fanfic in real time with the author. And hopefully it is a surprise every time that you open the document to see what's new. And then you pick someone whose writing you like, whose writing you enjoy, and then honestly it kinda carries you through the submissions process. ‘Cause you're like okay well it can't be that bad because I respect this person's writing - K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: - so if they liked it, then there's just a little like ‘no, this isn't bad,' that you can hold in your heart when you get a rejection from a magazine or something. K: Aww. R: Because like, you have faith that the other person knows what they're doing, and they have faith that you know what you're doing, and together you have this piece that you both believe in, even if you are believing in only half of it. [chuckles] And not the half that, you know, you worked on. So it's just really nice, yeah. K [overlapping]: In the end you're coming together to all believe together. R: Yeah I mean, we kinda, like in the second case it was a short story, and we did finish it. So, going back and forth, one person writing a few thousand words or like kinda getting to the end of a scene, like that break moment kinda thing where like - K: Yup. R: Fade to black, commercial break, whatever you wanna call it, and then going ‘ok! I just feel good about that writing session; I'm sending this back to you.' We did that a few times back and forth. One of us sent the first 500 words in November. By the time we had finished it, it was February of the following year. And, so that's pretty quick - K: Yeah that's really quick. R: We were both on top of it; we only sent it back like a couple of times. I think our total word count is 4100 words, so, at most that was like eight back and forth of - K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: - 500 words each, or I think some of them were a little bit longer. I think once we sorta started to see where it was going some of us were - some of us - [chuckles] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Half of us - one of us would write more of that, and the other person would write more of the other. K: Okay. R: So, and then after that, we started talking about like okay what do you wanna do now, ‘let's sit on it for a month' was the response, and then we picked some markets to target and one of us was just in charge of submitting them. K: So you, you had a system, you had a plan. R: Yeah. We didn't have a contract on that one, maybe we should. The nice thing is when you say you're co-authoring, the magazine tends to send two separate payments. K: Okay, nice. R: Or at least in my experience so far, of selling this once. K: [laughing] So overall, a good experience? R: Yeah! Yeah, that one was a lot of fun. Like I said, having a totally different attitude toward where it was going and who was in charge - which was neither of us or both of us? - it was a very different experience than the first time. My first experience was with someone, we were trying to write a whole novel, and I think our intent was it might be a series. So this was like long-haul planning, and it wasn't long before I realized like I don't think our styles really mesh. And he also wrote really really fast, and kind of expected me to write really really fast, so I would turn around something after working on it for like a week or so, and then the next day he'd be like ‘okay, your turn.' And I'd be like ‘oh, see, um, this isn't the only thing I wanna work on.' [laughing] K: Yeah. [chuckles] R: And so it was also, I think, in the middle of the final phases of getting Flotsam out, so it probably felt like a disruption, and the fact that he was turning things around so fast was like, frustrating to me. Whereas like I would work on something for awhile and then think like ‘okay, there, done, check it off my list' - K [chuckles]: Deep breath, yeah. R: And the next day it'd be on my list again. K: That can get a little stressful, certainly. R: Yeah. K: I guess the takeaway from all of this then is whether or not you have a good experience with this, a lot of it comes down to you. R: And planning and expectation yeah. K: Yeah. R: You could go to the Happiest Place On Earth and be a total stick in the mud about it, so - K: Yes. R: Like, that's true of everything. K: Yeah. Yeah but there's certain things you can do to make sure that it doesn't become a miserable experience, certainly. R: Yeah. Or, that you have a way out if it does. K: Yes, yes, there you go. So yeah I think that's - any, Rekka, any parting thoughts, any final suggestions or advice? R: If it's something that you've wanted to do, I definitely recommend doing it. Try it out and see. Hopefully, it doesn't break a friendship - [giggles] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Y'know, the first time you try it. Having that contract will go a long way to having a mutual not-fun-anymore clause. If neither party is interested in going forward, then that's it. That's all that has to be said, and the project is dissolved. And if the other person is loving where it was going and wants to keep going with it, then you just have that release agreement, where like “I don't expect any royalties or anything from this, you go ahead and have fun with it.” You hate to think that you need a contract to go do something that you and a friend both love doing, but ahh, I really think it's a good idea. K: It's probably, yeah. R: At worst, it doesn't hurt, and at best, it protects you and it gives you something to fall back on if things aren't going well. But, hopefully things go very very well and you end up with a story and you sell it, like I did! K: There you go. Rekka, what's the story you sold? R: [giggles] K: You knew I was gonna ask you about - R: Maurice Broaddus and I wrote a story called The Archivist, and it sold to Lightspeed magazine and should come out sometime within the next nine months or so. One day I imagine I will wake up and have been tagged on Twitter. K: It's just gonna be on there, yeah. R: And I will be able to share it then. My recent story on MetaStellar I was told the date, and then a few days ahead of time I was told what the URL would be and when it would go live, so I was able to prepare, which was nice. K: Very nice! As always, we hope we left you with some food for thought. R: It's worth doing, if only to find out whether you enjoy it or not, but also keep in mind that it takes the right pair of minds to do it. So if you don't enjoy the first time, that doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun again. But I hope you love it, ‘cause I did enjoy it, and I really am proud of the story that came out of it. I would not have written that story on my own. K: Oh, okay, well great! R: Which is another point, like I shouldn't leave off without saying that, but like we created a story that neither of us would've written if it was just working alone. K: Greater than the sum of their parts. R: Or at least greater than the sum of half the parts. [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Alright, well that is probably enough. If you want more, or you want to be notified when the story goes live, you can send us a message on Twitter or Instagram, we are @WMBcast. You can also find us on WMBcast.com with all our old episodes. If you are listening from the future, I might come back and add the link to that story when it does go live, to the show notes. If you are listening from a very very profitable future - K [overlapping]: [giggles] R: - you might consider going to Patreon.com/WMBcast to support us financially, but we don't need that! What we would really really love are some ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast aggregator, whichever you're listening to right now. That would be so, so helpful; it helps people find us. We had someone shouting on Twitter the other day saying like ‘why are more of you not listening to this podcast?' I guarantee it's because it's hard to find podcasts, unless they have really good ratings and reviews. So please, drop us some five stars and some glowing words, they don't have to be expansive. Just like ‘this podcast rocks!' I mean, that's what I think, that's what I would write. You can use that though. I'm not gonna hold you on a contract or anything. K: [laughing] R: Alright, two weeks from now we'll be talking about something entirely different, but probably just as goofy.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 62 Transcription After intro: [00:26] Kaelyn: We're talking today about reader tension and tense situations and managing these things. And you know getting the, kinda grabbing everyone and wanting to be like ‘this is important and there's peril and stakes here, and you should pay attention to this.' Rekka: This was another topic that was suggested to us by an uncredited listener, because I failed to write down all the people who suggested a very long list of topics that we will be going through. So I apologize, feel free to @ us on Twitter and take credit for the topic. But the original question posed was how to manage reader stress, and I assume they mean the tension and anxiety that our reader feels as they go through your plot. Because, as Kaelyn pointed out, you don't want to get so anxious and wound up over a plot that you can't finish the story and you need to protect yourself for self care reasons and back away. K: We're interpreting this question as not managing the external stress of readers. There's generally not a lot a book or an author can do about that, so please don't try. R: Although! A good book can really help you escape. K: Absolutely, yes. Maybe a book that's just full of pictures of puppies. R: Also good! K: Yeah. R: Yeah. So, the anxiety and tension that we're talking about is being cast upon the reader intentionally to draw them into your story. But how do you make sure you don't go too far, and how do you ramp up tension where you want it so that they aren't just kinda reading it and being like ‘I don't care about any of this.' K: Building tension is, it's difficult. For two reasons: one, it's a hard thing to do in writing, but then two, it's also very difficult to place it in a story. Let's qualify here depending on your genre, if you're writing a suspense thriller that's just going to be a tense situation [laughing] throughout the book. Most books, I would argue the majority of books, have some sort of conflict in them. There's going to be a point at which things come to a head. It could be physical, it could be mental, it could be, you know, strictly verbal confrontation. It could be characters that never actually meet but you know were seeing each other's perspectives as they, I dunno interact over the computer, they're both trying to hack the same database at the same time.  K:I have a friend who trains people in various business ventures, and one of the things she always says is “conflict is crucible.” And what she's kinda saying there is that when you're trying to solve a problem you have to resign yourself to some conflict, because conflict helps you get information, it helps you understand what you're looking at, it helps you understand the stakes. And I think that applies well to writing, because the conflict, first of all, builds richer characters, it builds a better storyline, it helps us understand motivations and actions better. But it's also really engaging. That's kinda what we're here for. R: Yeah, I would say that a story without conflict is going to be a very milquetoast kind of story. It doesn't matter what scale the conflict happens on, but - K: Mhm. R: - you want some kind of ‘what's going to happen' to linger, right up until the end of your story, you just want to kind of change like ‘ooh! Now that happened, what's going to happen now?' You know, it kind of elevates in stages. So every story is going to have conflict that's on a - that is proportional to the scale of the story being told. So, it doesn't always have to be end of the world scenarios; it can be ‘this person needs to sort their life out, and will they get that job they want, and will their roommate discover that they're actually a sorcerer?' K: I mean I hope so. R: Right? Those kinds of conflicts can be big or small; it's the stakes of the story. And you want your reader invested in the stakes of the story, so you want them to feel a little bit of anxiety about how the story's going to go. If they don't, then they can drift away from the book at any point and forget to pick it up ever again. K: I look back at things that I read as an adult, and things that I read as a kid, and the like really intense parts where you're like trying to keep yourself from skipping ahead on the page - R [overlapping]: [giggling] K: - and you know reading as fast as possible - R: Kaelyn that is cheating. K: I know! But like I - tell my brain. [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: You know but where you're like ‘oh my god I gotta know what happens, I gotta know what happens!' And then sometimes - R: Just so everyone knows, as an editor Kaelyn wants to know the end - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: Like as soon as the author knows it. So don't feel like she just skips to the end in books she picks up at the bookstore, no she wants the spoilers all the time. K: I need to know the end to a story. I'm not one of those people who waits ‘til a series comes out to read the books, because I can't wait that long - R [overlapping]: Mhm! K: - to be [???], I need a fix in there somewhere. But this is why I'm like weirdly into unsolved mystery kinda things, because I just need to know what happened, like [laughing] I always say if I could have a superpower, it's not that I want to time travel. I don't wanna like go back and interact and change things. R: Or go forward and get lottery numbers. K: Yeah I just wanna be able to like astral project or something so I can just, I just wanna see what happened. I just wanna know what actually happened, you know, who shot JFK? What'd they do with the aliens at Rosland? Did we land on the moon? I mean - R: Roswell. K: Roswell, yes. Why did I say Rosland? R: Maybe you know something we don't because you went back in time. K: It's possible. It's very possible. But yeah, I am someone who like feeds off of that tension. And I love intrigue, I love building the story, and by the way I just touched on another way you build tension here, which is not always necessarily conflict; sometimes it's mystery. Sometimes the stakes are trying to find something, or figure something out, or solve a puzzle, or learn someone's true identity. There was definitely a heyday for this sort of thing in the 90s and 2000s, especially with young adult literature, where a lot of the tension that was building in the book was people trying to get answers about a mysterious prophecy or an object or find a lost relic. R: Ohhh, I love a good lost relic. K: Ah, the best. Romantic tension is also a thing. R: You would have to imagine it is, because in the romance novels like that is - K [overlapping]: Yup. R: - the main plot of the book. So a will-they-won't-they is a ‘what's going to happen next?' K: Yeah, a will-they-won't-they, or how will they get through this, will they ever find each other again. So I think when we say like tension in the book we're picturing like a big Lord of the Rings style - R: Oh I'm imagining the boulder in Indiana Jones just hovering over everybody. K: Okay! Or that, you know we're thinking of like direct action and conflict. But tension can be built a lot of different ways. It's not always ‘I'm going to fight this knight now to free the dragon,' and yes in my scenario we free dragons, we don't slay them. R: Absolutely! K: Dragons are people too. R: Yeah. K: Creating tension for readers is part of what's compelling about a book. Now, sometimes these get a little out of hand. I'm gonna qualify that again, genre matters a lot here. If we're talking about like a spy thriller, if we're talking about a murder mystery, a suspense thriller, something like that. Yeah, you should go in expecting a lot of tension, you should know what you're getting out of that genre. Rekka, can you think of any books offhand that you had to like put down and walk away from? R: Because there was too much tension? K: Because the situation, the intensity of the situation was making you uncomfortable. R: Hmm. K: I can think of a couple. I'm not gonna say what they are, but I've definitely had that happen. R: So you're asking if that's happened? K: Yes. Has that ever happened to you? R: No. I've never put down a book because I was uncomfortable with high levels of tension; I've put down books because there was little tension and I wasn't grabbed. K: I've got a really thick skin when it comes to this stuff, there isn't a lot that bothers me. There's been two books that, one where it was just like the violence and the tension was just getting gratuitous. With that case it wasn't that it was making me uncomfortable. It was almost like coming full circle and getting pedantic. This is so ridiculous it's almost erased the tension, I'm no longer able to suspend my disbelief. R: Okay. So, what does that say about the author's ability to manage the tension? K: Not doing a great job. R: What was broken, if you wanna use that word, in that case? K: I think in this case, there was too much trying to shock people. Trying to shock the readers reading it. R: Okay, is that tension though? K: The scenario of the book was a group of people going through some kind of a building, I don't even remember what it was, and they're getting picked off by monsters and booby traps the whole time. It started out well, because it's dark, there's a lot of sounds and things and nobody's quite sure what's like, is that us, is it something else, is something following us, we know this place is full of danger okay we just have to get through here, and then what was happening was characters were dying. They were dying in horrible ways, and they were being very - described in great detail. And again, I have a really thick skin for this. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me. But what was happening was it was actually getting to the point that it was breaking the tension a little bit, because they were losing me there.  K: So I think the author's intention was to really up the scale and the stakes, because it wasn't just like ‘and a hole opened, and Jonathan fell through and we heard screams and then nothing.' Like first of all it was breaking the tension of the story stopping to describe all of this stuff. But beyond that, it was - I don't know. It was a very strange reaction, a very strange feeling, where it was kind of like I can't tell if this is making me nauseous or if I'm bored. R: Okay. This is making me think of the movie Thirteen Ghosts. K: Yes. R: Does this, is this ringing true for you? K: That is definitely ringing true for me. I had a similar experience with that movie. On the flip side, the other one that I had to put down and walk away had to do with sex. The tension that they were building with this couple that wasn't really a couple, and the dichotomy and the power struggles here, and the clear anxiety of one character vs not the other that I think was supposed to be building romantic tension, and ooh they're so into each other, it didn't at all. R: Okay. K: It was actually, I can't read this. As I've been talking through both of these you sort of pointed something out: was it the tension or was it things that writers were trying to use to create tension that weren't actually tension-building devices? R: Right. It sounds like people are trying to use some visuals and elements that are, let's say, flashes in the pan - K: Mhm. R: - in terms of the effect they have on the reader, versus something that's actually building a landscape over which the story is traveling. And it's the landscape I would argue that you want, because jumpscares are great for a horror movie, but once you've calmed down, that's all there is. Versus actually building, in that case, dread or fear. So things that have an intense effect but the effect is not lasting I don't think are going to be what you want to use when you're trying to control how the reader paces themself to get to the end of your book. K: I think in the example I used with the violence one, you know you have these characters, they're trying to get from point A to point B, and they're getting picked off or killed horribly one by one. And on some level I understand what the author was trying to do there. Instead of simply saying ‘and this person's dead now,' they're upping the intensity of the situation by showing that they're not dead, they're dying horribly. So you're getting the collective fear and horror built into the group of the remaining survivors so you're empathizing with them more. In that scenario, I see what they were doing. They were trying to use this gore and this violence to instill an intensity in you, but it got to the point that it was too much. R: So it wasn't flash in the pan, it was just overreaching? K: Overkill, if I can make that pun? [overlapping] A little bit, please? R [overlapping]: You cannot. I've checked with our producer and - K: [grunts] R: - they're shaking their head. K: Alright, fair. [chuckling] There can be times that you just take the device you're using too far, and it jumps the shark a little bit and becomes ridiculous. R: In the case of something getting to the point of ridiculosity, are they even employing the tools that would work and just overdoing it, are they overutilizing the tools, leaning on them too heavily, abusing them, or are they in the wrong toolbox entirely? K: Exactly, yeah. R: No, I'm asking you. [laughing] K: Oh. [laughing] Um no I was going to say those are all things to consider. I think that's something you have to work with an editor on, and I think that's something that you have to have readers give you feedback about, because this for a lot of writers becomes a can't see the trees for the forest scenario. You're so deep into this, you're not reading this for the first time like most readers will be, you wrote this. Rekka you tell me, when you're rereading things that you wrote, either for fun or doing revisions, does your heart beat a little faster when you get to these scenarios? R: If it's been long enough that I forget where I'm going with them. [laughing] K: Exactly, yeah. R: Because you know what you're trying to build to, and when you're trying to write it sometimes you can feel like you're being sooo hamfisted about it. K: Yeah. Writers need help for contextualizing this, I think. Because first of all you know what's gonna happen, hopefully. [laughing] Second, you've been through it so many times it doesn't have the same punch, the same meaning that it did. R: That's one of the frustrating things about being a writer, trying to know whether you're being effective. You burn through beta readers because you need somebody who hasn't read it before to tell you whether it's working. K: Yeah so circling back to is it too much, are you leaning into it, are you in the wrong toolbox entirely, that can be a really hard thing for writers to understand. I've definitely read books where I've felt like after a few revision paths, every time the author was going through and trying to up the scare factor or the intensity factor in everything, I think that's something where you need an editor or a very good friend to help you there. R: [laughing] K: It's a balancing act. You have to maintain believability. There is a difficult-to-track issue of understanding when a situation is intense and when it's not tense enough or too intense. I've definitely read books where important things have happened, and I didn't realize that was an important thing because the writing and the way the characters were behaving didn't indicate to me that that was a significant event. And if you're going ‘oh well, what does that have to do with it?', that's building intensity. R: I recently gave someone feedback that said like ‘hey, I think this moment needs to slow down for a second, and I know there's a lot of other stuff going on, but like if you don't linger on this, it's not going to have the impact you want. K: You don't wanna have to be in a position where you gotta insert a character in the story jumping up and down screaming at the reader that something that's happening is important, but if you can't signal to them in some way that it is, that's not great. R: You have to figure out how to signal it without really putting a wavy-armed balloon man in front of it. K [laughing]: Yes. Exactly. It's difficult, and there's a reason that authors that can do this well are very successful in writing, you know, murder mysteries and spy thrillers and suspense novels and stuff. Because there're people that eat that up. That's like what they live for. I can take it or leave it. But then there are people who avoid it like the plague. R: Like you said, genre has a lot to do with it. We're getting to a point which I think is good where people are starting to put content notes on books just like you would get at the beginning of a TV show. So you know this has depictions of graphic violence, sexuality - um, there's a difference between sexuality and nudity - endangerment of a child, trauma, stuff like that. And that helps people dial in, like ‘do I wanna read this book, is this the kind of intensity I'm looking for or not?' K: Now, and that said, there may be things that happen in the book that it never would've occurred to you to put a content warning about. R: And hopefully maybe your beta readers can highlight a couple things too. K: What I'm getting at is there's going to be things that happen - in books, in movies, in TV shows - that are upsetting for a specific person for a specific reason. R: Mhm. K: There's no way to predict all of these - R [overlapping]: Yeah. K: And try to compensate and notify for that. It sounds terrible to say stick to the obvious and take in the advice of others, but that is what I would say. And I'm not saying don't write these things. Be aware of what you're writing. R: Be aware of what you're writing and then be willing to take the responsibility for the people who are going to be upset by that and say like ‘yes, this is something I felt was necessary to the plot, but I promise you I gave it thought and hopefully the people who'd be extra upset by it will be warned by friends or somebody before they pick it up.' K: For anyone who's sitting at home going - and to be honest I don't think many of our listeners think this, but maybe who knows - ‘why do I have to bend over backwards to accommodate this?' You know what, honestly, you don't. R: It's a choice you make, yeah. [chuckles] K: But it's really shitty not to when it's so easy to do. And believe me, people who suffer from particular anxieties or trauma and everything, they're ultra-aware of this stuff. They're typically not going to go into a store, pick up a random book, and say ‘I'll just read this now' because, exactly for that reason: they don't wanna put themselves in a position where the intensity of the book is going to induce an anxiety spiral. And if you think that doesn't happen, I don't know what to tell you at this point because you're wrong. [laughing] So! R: And it's also not necessarily the intensity of the book, but the specific situations and the intensity of that person's personal experience laid over top of that. K: Yeah. Exactly. So, for readers who are saying “how do I keep myself safe from this kind of thing” so to speak, read content warnings. Read reviews online. Here's a thing: read the bad reviews, read the people who didn't like the book, because the ones who are complaining about things are gonna give you a little bit more insight probably, into areas that you might find distressing. R: And you can always just post a question on Twitter, like “hey - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: “ - here's something that really bothers me in books; I'm thinking of picking up this one, anything you wanna warn me about, I'd appreciate.” K [overlapping]: Yeah. You know, I'm not saying this to put all of the onus upon the reader who's concerned about this, but, I mean do your research. If you know this is something that's important to you and something you need to manage and minimize as best you can, the best judge of character for that's gonna be you. R: For the writer, you know, sensitivity reads are not a bad idea. Like we said, we can't cover everything with a single sensitivity reader but they might be able to give you more insight. If your intensity of your plot is overlaid with a certain kind of life experience, I guarantee you can find a sensitivity reader for it. And if you don't, ask around and someone else will be able to help you. K: Yeah but I mean beyond that, content warnings do a lot. R: You can't cover everything and everyone, like - K [overlapping]: No. R: - Kaelyn was saying, you can give it a fair attempt. K: Listen, if your fair attempt is something along the lines of ‘contains violence, gore, and depictions of furries,' like, that's that's giving everyone at least a heads-up of what's in here. R: And a Venn diagram of figuring out where they fall in that. [chuckles] K: I will defend the writers a little bit here in saying that there's only so much you can do, to a certain point. [laughing] R: In order to indicate everything that happens in your book, you literally have already done that, you've written the book. You can be broad and you can welcome people to send you a note and ask you if they have a specific concern they're afraid of running into. K: I would call it a good faith gesture to do that. And, I think if there's parts in there where you're going ‘I wonder if I should explain this,' the answer is, maybe decide what it is and then just mention that that's a thing that's gonna happen in there. R: Okay, so this is managing the readers' stress literally, and kind of the external forces as we said we weren't going to cover. K: Well I mean I was joking about just like daily life stress. [laughing] R: Right, but I mean this is kind of tied to their personal experience. So, going back to considering it now a positive to build stress and anxiety, what would you say to an author who brought you their story, and it reads as a little flat. What would you tell them, how to increase anxiety in the reader, by which I mean tension in the story? K: I'm gonna flip that and ask has that ever happened to you? I know the answer to that is no because I read your writing [laughing], so! R: You know, I am really surprised by how many people have told me that my books are really tense. K: Yeah my blood pressure's definitely spiked a few times over the course of events. [laughing] R: Is it just because of Hankirk? Like is it just because he's infuriating? K: It's a lot of things, um - R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: And actually you've touched on something that I think is very interesting that you do in your writing - and this is another kind of tension that I think we don't really appreciate as a different kind of tension to build - is hopelessness. And despair. R: Aw, now I'm mad. I didn't mean to be hopeless! K: No, you weren't, but this sense of like ‘what are we going to do?' R: Mm. K: And things just like um, a sense of despair and despondency, and I'm not necessarily talking about - R [overlapping]: Look, my characters have to come back from like their lowest low, like I'm gonna make that low real fuckin' low. [laughing] K: Yeah, exactly, but that's a kind of intensity too. So yeah, you definitely do not suffer from not having well-built intensity. R: You're avoiding my question. You turned it back around on me, as though we needed to analyze me, but we've just clarified we don't need to analyze me - K [overlapping]: No, no. R: What do you say to an author who is not me, who needs a little dose of, I guess some me-ness? K: I'm very much into helping writers solve their own problems. R: Yeah you do that. K: Yeah. I find that authors frequently know there's a problem and at least have the inkling of an idea of how to fix it. I would write them back and ask them, first do you have an outline of your story? If you don't, well, depending on our timeline here, write one; if we don't have time for that, I want you to highlight for me what you think the most important points of the story are for the plot. And depending on what was going on, I might tell them I'm gonna do the same. And let's see if we match up. I like to do that one a lot. R: Yeah you do. K: I want them to highlight the most important parts of the plot, and then I'd want them to pull out some areas where maybe it's more introductory, more worldbuilding, more establishing, and compare how those are written versus the important plot points. And look at your language, look at the way you're communicating with this, because this is - and I won't go too far into the weeds on this because it's slightly off topic, but it is worth mentioning - your language changes when writing intense situations.  K: The way you describe things, the way characters communicate with each other, the way they take in their scenery, a lot of times you'll notice writers that do this well have short-clipped sentences that match the franticness of the situation. Minimal description, because they don't have time to stop and look and describe something. So I would say that you know look at this and if these very important points of the story, these parts where it should be intense where the reader should be concerned and involved and engaged, and you're writing it with the same tone and cadence that you do with the part where they're walking through a meadow - R [chuckles]: The meadow is full of velociraptors. K: Ugh. You're describing heaven. R [muffled]: Stay out of the long grass! K [laughing]: I'm just picturing them with flower crowns now. R: Ohhh, they're so happy. K: [laughing] R: Beautiful queens!  K: [with accent] “Don't go into the long grass!”  R: We really just need to admit that this is a Jurassic Park fancast. K: Yeah we do talk about it a lot. So, I would say that that's a good place to start. And in terms of like exercises you can do, read it out loud. Act it out! I stood in a room with a manuscript and like held in front of me and like done both parts of the characters and imitated how they would be yelling at each other or what have you, just to make sure that like it sounds okay and it's coming across the right way. Because if I'm doing this by like kinda like staging a play here,  then hopefully you're getting that across to the reader. I think also developing your characters and having a good idea of how they would react in intense situations. If they're acting the same across the book no matter what, well, I don't know, maybe they've got a really good valium prescription. R: [laughing] K: You should see changes in not just their actions but their body language, their speech. If Rekka and I were trying to diffuse a bomb right now, I wouldn't be telling “okay, so um cut the green wire, um,” okay and then like imitating the scene from Jurassic Park where John Hammond's giving Ellie instructions over the radio and he's like talking so calm and everything - but that's a good example because even though he's talking very calm and walking her through everything, his voice is very intense. R: And he's having an argument behind the scenes. [laughing] K [overlapping]: Yes. He's having an argument with Ian, but like his voice is very intense. And now granted, movies get to use music to help with this kind of thing. R: Yeah they cheat. K: Yeah but if I were having a conversation with Rekka and it was a genuinely tense situation where I'm trying to give her instructions on how to diffuse a bomb - now granted– Okay so we're getting a little sidetracked here but I just wanna point out Rekka says he's having a funny argument with Ian, part of the reason for that was the shock value of the next scene. R: Right. K: You're luring the reader into a false sense of security of going like, oh look it's fine, John and Ian are arguing, Ellie's got this, and I think - “Mr. Hammond I think we're back in business!” And then an arm falls on her. Oh no, wait first the raptor attacks her, then the arm falls on her. That's a good instance of diffusing a situation only to re-intensify it immediately. If I were talking to Rekka and I was talking even in the same tone that like we talk in this podcast, like ‘well you know I guess if you wanted, like, so think about the green wire, think about why the green wire is important to this bomb. And if you take the green wire out what's going to happen?' Like that, you know, that's not a good way to write that scene. R: Yeah ‘cause meanwhile Mr. Arnold's arm has fallen on my shoulder and I am flipping out. [chuckles] K: I always wondered why the velociraptor didn't eat that, or how that happened. Like - R: I assume it like got bit off and then went flying and got caught in that little corner - K: I guess, but like it seems - R: Look, they needed it to fall on Ellie's shoulder. K: I know, but like it seems like it was in like wires, and it's like how did that get there? Did the raptor go back and - R [overlapping]: This is, this is going back to the believability of the situation and is it going to suck your reader out of the moment and go, ‘wait, how?' K: I remember being 10 years old and watching that and going, ‘how did that get there?' R: I also had that thought but I didn't linger on it, because - K [overlapping]: Ah, no. R: Ellie was being chased by a raptor, dragging a big flashlight, and I was worried like the flashlight was gonna get stuck on something and she wouldn't be able to keep going. K: But yeah it's, that would be kind of where I would start. And if the problems are still persisting, if we still can't get to a place where I feel like okay I understand that something important is happening, I understand that there's peril here, I understand that these two characters have left very angry at each other, that sort of thing, then that's a different conversation. That's a conversation about writing style and technique. And, that's harder to fix. R: You can't just add six more raptors and fix it. K: Six more raptors fixes everything, Rekka. R: Okay. Back up. You can just add - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - six more raptors; there's your fix for everything. K: Yes. R: But you do have to exercise it with extreme care. K: More raptors! R: - because people will pick up if you just do it every time. K: Yeah. If your solution to everything is add more raptors - R: Get your own solution - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - my solution to everything is add more raptors. K: Yeah that's, that's fine. R: Yeah, I thought so. K: It solves multiple problems, not just intensity of the situation problems, so. R: Mhm! K [chuckles]: I think that's it. If it's something you're struggling with, I hate to say this, but like this is something you just kinda have to work on. It's one of those style and technique things that, I won't say can't be taught because absolutely you can take writing classes that would help you with this, but I think it's something that also just comes from practice and learning. R: And I would suggest doing it with short fiction, because that's a really great way to learn how to control the pedal. K: Absolutely. R: To adjust your pressure on your reader. And also to build it quickly, because in a short story you don't have a lot of room, so it's a boiled-down condensed version. And also being shorter you get more practice, ‘cause you get to write more of them. K: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, that's my final thoughts on managing intensity in books is: it's not easy. There's a reason people who do it well make a lot of money off of it. R: It's not like if you aren't making a ton of money off of it that you're no good at it. To that point, pick up a book and see how someone else is doing it. K: One of the best ways to get good at writing is reading a lot. R: Yep. And steal everyone else's tricks. Except mine; the raptors are mine. K: Only Rekka's raptors. Ahh, that's what we need, a book series called Rekka's Raptors! R: Vick's Vultures but - K: I know. R: But it's dinosaurs. K: I'm already unfolding it in my head, trust me. R: Oh yeah. K: [laughing] R: Send me the outline. [giggles] K: See this is the problem is, I have all of these ideas of books that I would love to exist in the world and I need someone to write them for me. [laughing] R: That's what I said, send me an outline, I work really well off an outline! K: Yeah. So I think that's, that's the end of the episode. Hopefully it wasn't too much for you. R: Even if it's not the end of the episode, we're done. [laughing] K: Yeah. I think that - R [overlapping]: The raptors got us. We're in the long grass. K [laughing]: Does he say ‘the long grass' or ‘the elephant grass?' R: You know what? I recently read an article about how we all remember lines differently - K [overlapping]: Yes. R: - because of the different aspects we're focused on. So let's just assume that anybody quoting Jurassic Park to the point where you get the quote, has said it right. K: Okay. That's fair. R: I think that's like a way to be kinder to other people. K: Tension! It's good. R: The right amount is good. The wrong amount is bad. K: Yes. I can't even say in moderation because sometimes it's not moderation that makes it a - R: Sometimes the whole point is not moderating it. Except moderating the effect that you want in terms of, ‘hey, I the author have control and am moderating how much I want,' there. That's - K: Yep. R: That's the moderation that we're talking about. [laughing] K: Exactly. R: We should stop. K: [laughing] R: This episode isn't going to have a nice end, it's just going to - K: Ooh, maybe it just cuts to black mid sentence. [laughing] R: Well that's not a great pressure valve on your tension. Yeah no, let us know how this episode needs to end. You can @ us on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast, you can find us and all our old episodes at wmbcast.com. Please remember to subscribe, please remember especially to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and if you somehow just really wanna support my love of velociraptors, you can go to Patreon.com/wmbcast and send us some financial support, and I promise I will spend it on dinosaur plushies. K: Oh, I was gonna say velociraptor food. R: Well, I am the velociraptor food. K: Which now that I'm saying it I think is just goats, so. [laughing] R: No that's T. rexes, and it didn't work anyway. K: Yeah, they dropped the cow in the velociraptor. R: Yeah that's true - oh wait am I a velociraptor? Because I've been eating cow this week. K: You have, yeah. R: Hmm. K: Hmmmm. R: We'll have to investigate this in a future episode. K: Hey, because the mystery is building tension. R: Yeeeah, that's it. K [laughing]: Alright everyone, thanks very much for listening. R: For your indulgence. K: [laughing] R: Take care everyone!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: So it’s funny you picked this when I was still studying history, that was something we always had to consider. Is this group, is this person part of determining where they fit into historical context as determining do they have agency? Can they act on their own behalf? Structure is what keeps someone in place; agency is what allows them to act freely. Rekka: Where would you put Odysseus, in this context? K: I would make Odysseus a failed attempt at agency. R: [laughing] K: Well, maybe failed agency isn’t the right--because he is displaying agency. He’s trying to do something, and he’s having to frequently overcome obstacles. That said, those obstacles are things that keep happening to him, rather than him directly engaging. R: Right. K: So it’s a little bit of a, uh. R: Weird example. K: No it was a good one, I liked it. R: No it’s a good example but it’s not a good role model for agency in your novels. K: Odysseus isn’t a good role model for a lot of reasons. R [laughing]: That’s just one of them. K: [laughing] R: Be the person who ties yourself to the mast, rather than give in to the sirens. Actually fuck it, give in to the sirens. It’s 2021, let’s just go for it. K [laughing]: That’s a very bad--I feel like 2020 was the year to give into the sirens. [laughing] R: Yeah, but what is 2021 but 2020 persevering? K: No, we’re slowly defeating it. We’re claiming some agency for ourselves. R: I am still in this room. K: [laughing] R: I have always been in this room. How are we defeating anything? K: I think I was born in this room. R: Kaelyn, have you and I met for smoked meats in a restaurant? K: We haven’t. R: Right. So, nothing has changed. K: Yeah. R: Have we hung out in a library with random strangers at the same table? K: No. Some of whom are handwriting books. R: Yeah, no. This is not happening. So today I called you here to talk about agency. K: So in that scenario do I have agency? Because I made the decision to join you. But-- R: But--are you allowing this topic to happen? Or are you actively engaging in the expression of our ideas? K: Oh both. R: [laughing] K: Definitely. R: Once you get past some of the other, like, identify your theme, and helpful advice for writing like that-- K: Strengthen this character arc, you know, the really nice vague feedback. R: The really helpful, helpful specific feedback. You might also end up hearing that your character needs more agency in a scene, or in the story overall. And as with the others, this can be really helpful advice. If you know what it means. K: Yeah um, it I think falls into the category of frustratingly vague advice that is absolutely rooted in important context. R: But it’s also really true. K: Yes, yeah. R: Which is just the worst part. There’s nothing worse than vague advice that is also correct. K: It is vague advice, but I think when you’re dealing with things like ‘work on your character’s agency,’ ‘strengthen this arc,’ ‘identify the themes in your story,’ those are big picture things. So. Definition—as always love to start off with that—uh, agency in general, the definition is “an action or intervention, especially as to produce a particular event.” Acting, essentially. Taking action. Doing something. Trying to influence the outcome. R: Not just action but pro-action. K: Yes. For characters in books, agency is basically when a character can make choices and act on their own behalf. R: What is it about agency that gets turned into a secret agency that acts against aliens, or whatever--I’m just playing around with etymology here-- K: [laughing] R: But how’s that word get turned into that meaning? K: The way I always took that was that an agency is meant to act on behalf of a group of people or towards a certain end. So, if we wanna take S.H.I.E.L.D. - R: Okay. K: So agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Their job, their directive, is to protect Earth from large-scale global threats. Everything they do, every action they take, is to further that outcome. Real world example: the CIA, Counter-Intelligence Agency. They have a very specific job. It’s to try and out-maneuver, out-intelligence if you will, foreign and domestic hostile powers. R: Okay so the word is not trans-mutated in any way, in the way that it’s applied to an organization. It still means taking proactive action toward a goal. K: Yeah, so I did look up the definition of agency in that regard: “a business or organization established to provide a particular service, typically one that involves organizing transactions between two other parties.” R: So like, a literary agent. K: There you go. Here’s a good example, the Environmental Protection Agency. R: Mhm. K: Their directive, their job is to protect the environment. What do they do? They organize, they create scenarios, be they either laws or policies or transactions even, that further their goal of protecting the environment. R: This is a group of people that are acting for one goal. In our writing, when we talk about agency, we’re generally referring to character agency. As in we have a main character, they are serving as our POV - point of view - and think of that term as the window through which you experience the story. Your viewpoint into this story and this world. So, everything that this character chooses to do is how you experience the story. So by acting on a desire, they create tension as to whether there will be an obstacle that they can overcome, whether they make a decision to do something that frightens them a lot, or whatever - you get to experience that tension. So if this character goes with the flow - K: [laughing] R: - how much tension do you get to experience? K: Yeah so what this means when you get this feedback, ‘I need you to work on your character’s agency here,’ is that it means the character is being very passive. They’re being more reactive than proactive. Oh I’ve got a good example: Twilight. R: Bella is a classic example and often referenced example of a character who doesn’t actually do much. And this is part of that Mary Sue criticism that gets used in the wrong places a lot, but in this case what we’re talking about is Bella is a bodysuit for you to crawl into, and see this world. K: Well Bella is almost worse than that. In some cases Bella is an object. She is sort of a MacGuffin that furthers this story. Something I always like to trot out is, if this character weren’t here, would things go that differently? R: [laughing] K: Now, in Twilight yes they would. Because a lot of conflict, a lot of the story, whatever, does center around Bella, but it is more just the fact that she exists than anything else. If she were a particularly tasty cow that all of the vampires also wanted to eat, well - that’d be a different story too. [laughing] R: Yeah, that’s a weird one. K: No, but if she were something like a magic ring that lets the vampires turn back into humans or something, you could possibly just sub her in with a magic ring. And a lot of those story elements could still happen. R: So is your character interchangeable with an inanimate object? K [laughing]: My favorite one, ever, that I promise I’ll stop on this side note - Indiana Jones. R: Mhm. K: - is completely irrelevant to the first movie. If he weren’t there, everything would go exactly the same way. That said, Indiana Jones has agency. R: He is trying. K: He’s trying. He’s not doing the best job, but he’s trying. Um so, you can have a character that maybe if they weren’t there things would progress as normal. My whole point is Indiana Jones, regardless of whether or not he not only shows up, exists, the storyline with Marion and getting the Ark of the Covenant, we still end up with the Nazis opening the Ark of the Covenant on a remote island. R: Just turns out it was a bad idea. [chuckles] K [laughing]: Just turns out you shouldn’t go poking around in these things. R: Yes. And that had more to do with Belloq being his agency to, as he put it, take whatever Indiana Jones had, and possess it himself. K [overlapping]: Yes. R: And then him not being able to resist looking in the Arc. Now, had the Arc made it to Hitler, would Hitler have known how to use it? I mean, he studied all this stuff. It’s very possible that he might’ve put it to more diabolical use, rather than just frying himself as Belloq did. K [overlapping]: Yeah. Yes. Um, you know, in Twilight, the character that has agency there is not Bella, it’s Edward. R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: He’s the one who’s making all the decisions, he’s the one who’s making the choices. He chose to stay and pursue Bella. He chose to let her know that he was a vampire. He chose to eventually make her a vampire. R: Mhm. K: Bella is a thing that all of this is happening to. R: The prize to be won. K: Yeah. Bella’s a very passive character, and there’s points in the story where she does make decisions, but the choices then are even things that are forced upon her. R: Here’s an example of not, apparently, including much agency in your character, and still having an incredibly successful book series. K: And movies. R: So as with all advice- K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - feel free to break the rules and have a smashing success and good on you. K: There is an exception to every rule to be sure. But, as you kinda said right at the get-go, one of the biggest criticisms of Bella is that she is an empty skin suit for the reader to crawl into and make themselves feel as though they are the star of the story. People who have agency don’t feel like that. It’s part of character development. If Bella were making a lot of choices and decisions and stuff, you’d have readers going “Well that’s not what I’d do, why would she do that, that’s so ridiculous.” And then you distance yourself from that character because you’re establishing them as a fully realized person. R: Right. K: Rather than the empty skin suit slash object. R: Right. Now, Big Lebowski. K [laughing]: Oh God, that’s a good one, okay! Um, God I haven’t watched that movie in forever, I love that movie. R: So he starts out, he gets up, he goes to the grocery store, he gets the ingredients for his White Russian, he drinks half of it there, he goes home. K: “Where is the money Lebowski?” [laughing] R: This has happened to him so far. Somebody mistakes him because he shares a surname with a very rich person, and they walk into this very shabby home and somehow think that they’ve found the right place. Now he isn’t gonna do anything about it. K: Yeah. R: He goes on with his life. He just is kind of sad about it, but his friends convince him - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: - that he needs to do something about it. K: Except the guy pees on the carpet. And that carpet really tied the room together. R: It really tied the room together! But he is not going to act until he’s convinced by his friends to act. K: This is another thing with agency. It’s okay for characters to be sort of passive and have things happen to them. That’s what starts the story- R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: - going. You don’t, don’t get me wrong. There’s plenty of stories out there with someone going “I woke up this morning and decided to do this thing.” R: Mhm. K: Or they start out with a quest, or they come up with something on their own. [overlapping] R [overlapping]: You’re in media res, so you’ve already gotten to the point where they want something. K: Yeah. But typically even if we pick up within that point something had to happen to them a lot of times beforehand, for them to want to go get the magic ring that lets you turn back into a human. R: Yeah and often you find that the character starts off trying to do a thing that isn’t the thing they decide they need to do in the end. I mean that’s kind of part of the whole character arc, is deciding what it is they really want. The Dude really wants a nice comfy life with his White Russians - K: And his bathrobe. [laughing] R: And the rug that ties the room together. K: Yeah. R: So it bothers him enough to complain about it, but not enough to act on it. Then he is cajoled into acting upon it. And he goes and finds himself embroiled in a large plot, where things kind of continue to happen to him. K: With movies you can watch a series of strange events unfold, because there’s the visual component that - often these are comedies. It’s almost slapstick. We’re just watching this person who all he wants is to go bowling with his buddies, sit in his bathrobe, and drink White Russians. And he ends up getting pulled into this bizarre situation. R: Being sent to have a physical ‘cause turns out he’s gonna father a child, and also toes get cut off - K: You want a toe? I’ll get you a toe next week. [laughing] Lebowski is a rather passive character. He doesn’t have a ton of agency. That said, once he gets involved in this he does make decisions even if they’re just ‘I want to get out of this alive.’ R: Yes. And he observes clues and he starts to put things together that probably they expected him not to do. They really thought that he would just kinda take the fall for things, or just go along, get paid, go home, and return to his life. K: Yeah. By the time he gets to the end of the story, his motivation is something between ‘I need to figure this out’ and ‘I’m not letting this random guy who got me tied into all of this get away with it.’ Does the Dude have agency? Sometimes, a little bit, if he can get the energy and motivation together to feel like it, which is by the way very in line with his character. R: Yeah. K: It is very typical with books to start out with characters just living their life. People by nature are passive. But you ever notice that when someone says “I’ve decided to do this thing,” it’s usually an announcement. It’s usually like “I’ve decided to change jobs.” “I’ve decided to buy a house.” “I’ve decided to ask this person to marry me.” It’s a decision you make to take action. Whereas most of our lives are just kind of us living our life, yeah after I’m done here I’m gonna have some soup I made, I’m very excited about that. I’m deciding to have soup. Is that agency? I don’t think so. You know in your day-to-day lives, agency are things that you’re trying to act for your benefit. I’ve decided to buy this house, because I worked very hard and I think this is a good investment and I think I’ll be happy and comfortable here, and this will improve my life a measurable amount that I want it to. R: Mhm. K: When characters act with agency, you know a lot of times they’re in situations that are not normal day-to-day things. There aren’t a lot of books out there about someone’s decision to work really hard, save money, and buy a house. R: Well that’s the first 25% of a book, that 25%, that storyline is gonna go away, or be severely altered. K: That house is haunted as hell. [laughing] R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: For a character to have agency, they have to do three things. They have to be able to act in their environment, which means that if you said a character, let’s say a human being, and you put them on an alien planet where literally everything is made of gas, that character’s not gonna have any agency because they can’t do anything. R: Right. K: But not only is everything made of gas, but the lifeforms that live there physically cannot communicate with the human, or have no interest in doing so. R: Right. K: So that person can’t interact with their environment; they’re not gonna have any agency, they have to just sit there and wait for something to happen. R: Unless the plot of that story is ‘how do I get to the point where I can talk to these aliens?’ There have been many Star Trek episodes like this, where you can’t communicate with the other aliens and the plot is ‘how do we find common ground?’ So, the decision to do so is agency, but the human who says “Well, all these molecules are just too far apart, I guess I’ll just sit here.” K: [laughing] R: That character has no agency. K: So the second thing is a character has to be able to make meaningful decisions. So, in the case of our character sitting on the gas planet, they’ve gotta make the decision of ‘I’m gonna find a way to gather all of this gas and condense it into something solid that I can use to my benefit.’ R: Right. K: They have to have a way to work towards their own benefit. Even if it’s not working towards their own benefit they have to be presented with situations in which they can make a decision. Even if it’s ‘the army’s invading, there’s two sides of this city, we’re only gonna be able to fend them off from one, we have to evacuate the other.’ The character making the decision of ‘okay, we’re gonna evacuate the east end, move everybody into the west end, and here are the reasons that we’re doing this and that’s why it’ll give us a better advantage.’ That’s displaying agency. The third thing is the character’s ability to affect the story. And this is different from making decisions. This is where Indiana Jones fails. R: Right, right. K: Because he doesn’t actually affect the story really. Sure, he’s got some wacky hijinks, he shoots a guy who just wanted to have a nice sword fight - R: Cracks a whip. K: Cracks a whip, somehow hitches a ride on a submarine, you know, things happen. R: If it wasn’t for Sallah he wouldn’t have even made it halfway through the movie. K: Exactly. Is he entertaining? Absolutely. It’s a delight. But he doesn’t do anything that changes the outcome of what’s happening. So, this is different than making a decision. Because a character needs to have an impact on the story. If you erase them from the story and nothing changes, that’s not a good character. R: You have some characters who maybe aren’t the decision makers, but if they’re the person with the special skill, or you know they’re the person with the strength or the fortitude to go ahead with the story that the other character doesn’t have, and you end up with a nice balanced team-up of brains and brawn. Obviously if you take the brawn out of that story, it is going to affect the story. Now, take Indiana Jones out, and you definitely have a very different movie. K: Absolutely, yes. R: Sometimes the character is required for the tone. K: Like a swashbuckling adventurer. R: Think of Jack Burton in Big Trouble in Little China. K: Okay. R: He’s not actually the hero of the movie. At one point a big fight scene starts, and he shoots his gun in the air and ends up knocking himself out when the ceiling falls on him. And for the greater portion of this fight scene he is prone on the ground. He’s almost like the story’s style, but he’s not the story’s main active character. K: Yeah. R: You know there’s parts where yes, they need him because he’s tough and he can fight, but so can the other characters. There’s a lot of characters doing a lot of stuff in that movie, and Jack Burton - you would notice, if you saw it and they removed him and then you watched it again, you would definitely notice his absence. But does his absence change the story? Would his friend have not gone to rescue his girlfriend? He definitely would have. And he definitely would’ve done it without Jack, but he talked Jack into helping. It’s interesting how many stories we enjoy end up with characters who draw a lot of attention to themselves, like Indiana Jones, like Jack Burton, without actually making a huge difference in the plot of the film. Or, I’m saying film ‘cause we like to use movies as shortcuts. But um - K: [laughing] R: How does this work in a book? Let’s go back to our favorite, Gideon the Ninth. Gideon kinda doesn’t have a clue what’s going on! K: Gideon is a little bit of a passive character. R: Yeah! But it’s delightful [laughing], just like Indiana Jones and Jack Burton. K: She gets dragged along on this adventure, which we find out is basically one giant series of death traps. She doesn’t know why she’s there. She’s there to serve as a lens of the story for the reader, because the other main character that we’re introduced to here is of course Harrowhark. R: Harrowhark has a lot of agency, and it’s all off the page. K: Because Harrowhark can’t be bothered to tell anybody about it. And, if she did, if she was the point-of-view character in that first book, we would have no idea what was happening. We need all of this to be told to us through the lens of Gideon, who is more like us than, like, Harrowhark. R: Yeah. Right. K: Of course by the end of the book you know this changes; we’ve learned some things, we’ve solved some mysteries. But Gideon is sort of a passive observer. Yes, she’s poking around, she’s talking to people, she’s gathering information, but really she can’t do anything with it until Harrow tells her what’s going on. R: And she’s only there because Harrow has made her promise to go along on this venture and then she’ll get the thing she wanted in the beginning, which she was pretty close to succeeding except Harrow was the obstacle. So Harrow said, “Do this thing with me, and then I’ll give you what you want.” And so Gideon goes along specifically for that purpose, and how much more passive can you be than just being like ‘if I just tap my foot throughout this book, I’ll get to the thing I want.’ K: Yeah. She literally just wants me to sit in a room and do nothing. R: Harrowhark has even said “do not speak to anyone.” K: Yeah. Don’t talk to anyone, don’t do anything, stay in this room, be here when I get back. R: So of course, the plot happens because Gideon’s like uhh you don’t tell me what to do. K [laughing]: Yeah it’s not agency so much as annoyance. R: Two people who can’t stand each other so why would one do what the other one wants. K: Yeah. Exactly. R: That is kind of the plot of Gideon the Ninth, but in the most delightful way that I just made sound as flat as possible. K: You’re right, because Gideon serves the purpose of one: as I said providing the reader with context and perspective, but two: also, she’s awesome! R: Yeah. K: And we like watching her swing this giant sword around, and be muscle-y - R [overlapping]: Yeah, flex for the other people in the book. K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: And also like look at people and go “There’s something wrong with you” [laughing], you know? K: Yes. Yes. Um, be the perspective of ‘This is all really weird, how am I the only person who sees that this is all really weird?’ R: Mhm. K: So. Um, yeah, so that’s a good example of characters who are passive but are compelling. So if you’re thinking to yourself ‘well, if that’s a thing that’s allowed, why do I need to strengthen my character’s agency?’ Because it depends on the story you’re telling. And it depends on what you’re trying to do here. If you have a character who is supposed to be your main character, your protagonist, they’re supposed to be leading the charge, and what they’re doing is they’re tripping from event to happening back to other event, just sort of letting stuff happen to them rather than doing things themselves, that can get really boring to read.  K: The second and third book in the Ember in the Ashes series, there’s a character in there named Helene. And - I won’t ruin too much for anybody who hasn’t read these, and full disclosure I’m still finishing the fourth one - in the second and third books especially, Helene is running around putting out fires. She is desperately trying to manage an unmanageable situation. At the same time though, she’s trying to figure out ‘how do I solve this bigger problem that I’m trying to face? How do I mitigate these circumstances?’ I was so excited whenever it was one of her chapters, because that was the thing that I thought was most interesting, was watching her just get things heaped on her. Every time she turns around something else bad is happening, that is just one more thing she’s gotta deal with. So was she displaying agency? In the second book I would say not as much, by the third book we’re certainly getting there. But, it’s still compelling because the way she is acting on her own behalf is not necessarily for herself maybe, but for other people. R: Okay. K: Watching someone deal with and try to mitigate overwhelming circumstances, I would say, is a form of agency. Even if they are just running around putting out fires. R: Trying to survive - K [overlapping]: Yes. R: - this moment, as opposed to having a plan for the next two weeks to six months - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: - toppling the empire, etc. It’s okay if they’re just trying to get back to normal. K: Yes. Or, just trying in the case of Helene, just trying to make sure her family’s safe. Let’s start there. That’s small step number one, I’ve gotta work on that. Okay small step number two, now I’ve got a deal with the residents of this city. Now I’ve gotta figure out how I’m gonna deal with this other maniac, and there’s all of these forces and factors that she can’t really do much about. But she can make decisions. R: Right, so in an earthquake, a character obviously isn’t going to defeat the earthquake. K: I defeated an earthquake last week, Rekka, I don’t know what you’re talking about. [laughing] R: Okay. In a typhoon, Kaelyn’s not gonna go punch a typhoon. K: No no, earthquakes are far more punchable than typhoons. R: Right. So you can trust that Kaelyn’s gonna go check on friends and family, uh, Kaelyn’s going to act in ways that clearly are important and have great meaning to her personally, even if they’re not going to fix the fact that there’s a typhoon, or the fact that you know FEMA’s gonna have to come in and that sort of thing. So what about characters with examples of great agency? Like the Quest plot. Is that agency or is that ‘this wizard told me I need to go do this thing’? K: Well okay so I will, we can talk about the Quest plot and then I’ll give you what I think is a good example of someone who has agency and, I’m going to put them into the same story, which I know we’ve been talking about this series a lot, Shadow and Bone and the Six of Crows. For those who haven’t read or watched it, hopefully you know that one is a trilogy, the other is a duology, they’re separate storylines but the Netflix series collapsed them both into one. R: So go read the books anyway, because Netflix made some choices. K: So the first trilogy Shadow and Bone, Alina Starkov is a very, a little bit of, especially for the first book, a passive character. You know she discovers she has this power, and she is tasked with solving this big problem because she has this power. She does start to display agency in the story but if things had just progressed along that sort of Quest storyline - you could argue that it even does a little bit because ultimately there is a problem that she is the only one that can solve. R: Mhm. K: So, is that agency? Well, the way she goes about handling it in the story, breaking away from the wizard character and trying to decide to do this her own way is certainly displaying agency. R: Right. K: Conversely, in the Six of Crows, we have the character Kaz, who is sort of your underworld rogue-type but not in a charming way. I would actually say he’s quite the opposite of charming. He’s very stoic, very serious, very no-nonsense. But Kaz makes a lot of decisions to try to accomplish goals and to better the lives of him and his friends. There’s some revenge scenarios here, but in the revenge scenarios it’s reclaiming things that were taken from him. R: Right. K: There’s friends to liberate, there’s people to try to help and better their lives, there’s people they encounter along the way that get into bad situations. He is a character with a lot of strong agency. Even before we meet him, we can see everything he’s done, everything he’s worked towards to build himself up to a point where one day he can maybe do this one thing he’s trying to get to. I would say he’s a great example of somebody with a lot of agency. R: Right from the start. K: Yeah. R: So he’s got a plan, and this plan is the focus of the story. K: Yes. Of course, wrenches get thrown into it, because - R: Just in terms of Luke Skywalker just wants to escape the farm life, that’s his desire at the start. But what he ends -- I mean he does get that, but it turns into a much bigger story. K: Katniss Everdeen from Hunger Games. Does she have agency? She is mostly reactive. She only volunteers because her sister got picked as tribute. R: But she’s volunteering to protect her family, which you might say is proactive decision. K: At the same time though, if Katniss had not volunteered, would any of the subsequent events in the story have happened? No. Her decisions are impacting the story. That said, she is very manipulated a lot through this entire story. R [overlapping]: Oh yeah. And I think that’s just the way that as a character, we express that just ‘cause you’re a hero doesn’t mean you can’t be fooled, you can’t be misguided, you can’t be manipulated as you said. I thought that was incredibly different from anything I’d read of an adventurer-hero story, because you realize a hero doesn’t always make the right decisions. K: Yeah. I have a lot of mixed feelings about that book series as we’ve discussed in this - R: I’m not saying I’m happy with the way it ended, but that definitely opened my eyes, and I think influenced me. As a result, my characters definitely made decisions that they thought were sound, or they thought were motivated correctly, or were the right thing to do or whatever, that end up making more of a mess. K: Yeah. Now that said, with Katniss one of the things I will say bothered me a lot in this, and this is I think a product of trying to shoehorn motivations into areas where it doesn’t already exist, Katniss is -- there’s a scene, it’s much more pronounced in the movie but it is in the book -- where they’re at District 13. And they’re all sitting in this bunker and it’s ‘let’s talk about a time Katniss has inspired you, she’s this symbol. She is the Mockingjay.’ I don’t know if this was on purpose, I don’t know if this was the intent, but I couldn’t come up with a better way to just be like this character is almost inconsequential to what they’re doing. They just need her to stand heroically in front of people. I really think that a 16-17 year old girl was probably not the sole motivation for overthrowing an entire super-oppressive government, but. [laughing] R: Again, I am not going to jump in front of a train for this book series - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: But I could see the development of a character who stands up to the government on TV that the government requires everybody to watch. K: Yes. R: Like this is a program that the government is putting in front of people’s faces because they want people to know that people will pay for their past transgressions, until they deem that they’re done. And Katniss says, “No. It’s not gonna be one survivor, I’m not going to kill the person that I grew up with because I need to survive; we’re both going to survive” and that turns into a big moment- K [overlapping]: Yes, it did. R: Also she honors the person from the other district with whom she’s supposed to be competing, but they all see her treat Rue like a human being, which is not something that you get from this government. K: There’s these tiny acts of rebellion. But I would say that it’s all undone by the fact that she doesn’t actually want any part of this. She wants to go back to her life and be done. Now that’s, I would argue, not agency, because what she’s having to deal with is the fallout of decisions that she made for survival, rather than because she wanted to make a statement. R: No I understand that, but I’m saying again with the hero doesn’t always make the right decisions, also, person who makes a couple decisions where other people can see them suddenly find themself turned into this bigger than life character - K [overlapping]: Yup. R: I felt like that was part of the character arc, coming to terms with being this person everybody now expected her to be, and sometimes needed her to be, in order for them to go on. K: I found book Katniss a very grating character, I didn’t - R: You are not the only one, I have heard this plenty of times. K: I didn’t like her much but one thing I appreciated about her was how much she just wanted to be left alone. [laughing] R: Yeah! I mean, we can all relate to that. K [laughing]: We can all relate to that. It’s just like, I get it. I don’t really like you that much but I totally get it. She’s capable, as you said, she’s a fast thinker, but she’s not a leader. In fact in the second book they have a whole plot going on behind the scenes that she doesn’t know about until the very end, because everybody looked at her and went ‘I don’t think she’s gonna be helpful here.’ [laughing] R: Yeah. K: We would be better off just doing this on our own. R: Yeah. K: And I really appreciate the writer’s acknowledgment of that. [laughing] But again, in the second book she is reverted back to a very passive role, this stuff is just happening to her. Even more so than in the first one. R: And then it continues in the third book, where they take her on this SWAT team adventure, and she’s just like ‘what the fuck’s going on?’ K: Yeah ‘cause they’re gonna go shoot all of this war footage of her. But then, she does make the decision ‘I’m going with this because I wanna get us into the Capitol, so that I can go kill the president.’ R: Right, right. K: So there we do have Katniss with agency, with a plan. R: Mhm. K: How important do you think plans are to characters having agency? R: This is a really good question. We’ve just described a lot of main characters who don’t really have a plan. K: No, no. R: And who are all highly successful IPs. Sometimes I think figuring out the plan can be the character’s arc. They know they want something. They try and fail and try and fail, and it’s because they don’t know how to go about it, or there’s something that they need to let go of or gain in order to figure out the best way. You know like a heist movie. K: I swear I was just thinking of a heist movie. [laughing] R: The plan is happening all along. K: Yeah. R: And it’s the reader watching it, and being misled about things going wrong that it turns out were part of the plan anyway because there’s always that aspect of the heist that you don’t hear about ‘til the end, and you get to watch it again and go ‘Oh now I see!’ K: ‘Yeah that guy was in the background the whole time.’ R: Yeah so obviously in that case the plan is not the plot. The reveal is the plot. The red herrings are the adventure, I don’t know. Sometimes a character figuring out what they want is the plot. K: Mhm. R: The idea I think is that the character starts with a sense of the way things are right now are not good. K: I think there’s a lot of this in anime. I’m thinking of Inuyasha right now, did you watch that? R: No. You’re gonna have to talk Sailor Moon if you’re gonna keep me on your level. K: Okay, let’s talk Sailor Moon. Let’s talk the original anime run, where they really fleshed out a lot of the episodes, and remember at one point they’re trying to track down the seven rainbow crystals. You know Sailor Moon becomes Sailor Moon not by choice, she just is. R [overlapping]: Yup. K: And she’s got a talking cat that tells her to fight demons. R: And yells at her for not doing her homework. K: And at the same time, she’s not only gotta find these other sailor scouts, and identify them and get them to accept their fates and roles but because this is anime everyone’s like ‘Ah yes! This is what I was meant for the whole time!’ In the first season of the anime they’re tracking down these seven rainbow crystals. So they don’t necessarily know why they’re tracking them, and at one point Tuxedo Mask has one and they’re like that’s fine, he can just hang on to it. R: [laughing] K: They’re just like well we don’t want the bad guys to get these. We don’t know why. But then we find out, oh no wait, it turns out we actually need all of them. R [overlapping]: Yeah. K: Why? Well we’re not sure yet. Okay now we know why we need all of them. And, oh crap, there’s the princess! And why do we need the princess? Because the princess can wield this power that’s going to defeat Queen Beryl. The agency there I think is - well first of all accepting and embracing ‘hey this is something I have to do.’ But also then incremental goals. And sometimes your plan changes. Sometimes it turns out that Sailor Venus is not the princess. R [overlapping]: [laughing] Yeah. Yeah. K: It’s actually Sailor Moon. [laughing] R: Yeah, well, certainly couldn’t be her. Look at her. K: No, no, I mean she looks nothing like that other princess that she looked exactly like. [laughing] R: With the same hairstyle and everything. K [laughing]: Yes. R: The importance of grace in a person’s identity is apparently paramount. But yeah, the idea of a plan changing with new information I think is overlooked, because we like our stories in small parcels. K: Yes. R: But something like, for example a manga that’s gonna go on in theory indefinitely - K: [coughing]Naruto.[/coughing] Sorry. R: You’re going to have to introduce new information that’s going to change the course of the plot, and make the characters do something that maybe they wouldn’t have done before, or something they hadn’t considered, or just go off in a different direction because they need a new costume. K: And by the way this is why a lot of not just manga, but comic book series and even ongoing long-running television shows, have story arcs. R: Yeah. K: Manga especially you will see broken out into the such-and-such arc. R: Mhm. K: The this arc, they actually title them and they’re considered collections. R: Yeah. The introduction of new information can help pivot the story in a way that, like the characters might not have made that decision based on the way that they were starting out or proceeding at any given point in it. Having a plan is good, but maybe it doesn’t matter what it is. [laughing] K: But I think having a plan is a baseline that gives characters agency because they can make decisions to try to achieve the end results of that plan. R: Trying to stay on the track. K: Yeah. Again I’ll refer to the character of Kaz in Six of Crows. What’s so compelling about his character is he is a planner. He’s one of those guys who’s thinking of every possible contingency. He’s trying to stay two steps ahead of rivals and archnemesises - nemesii - R: Nemeses. K [overlapping]: Nemeses. I like nemesii. And that’s why we see him act so clearly with so much agency because then on top of that, we also learn that he is a person who’s very knowledgeable and very in control of things. You need a guy who can do this? He knows the guy who can do that who owes him a favor. He runs a casino, so all he’s doing is collecting information and favors and stuff to be traded in later. R: Okay. What about competence porn? K: Competency porn in general - if you’re not getting it from just saying, this is: somebody who’s always on top of things and always two steps ahead, and then it’s like all is lost, haha, no it’s not! See, I took the magic human ring from their pocket a long time ago, and now we can all - R [overlapping]: Going back to the heist kind of plot we described, like Danny Ocean - K: Yeah. R: - was an extremely competent person who was never out of control at any point. K: And even when we were left to think that he was out of control, that he was gonna derail this whole thing because of Tess, it turns out no, she was part of the plan the whole time. R: Yeah. K: So how do you have a character that has a lot of agency, can show forward thinking, without making them insufferable? R: We’ll start with casting George Clooney. K: Yes, yeah. All things are forgiven if it’s George Clooney. R: [laughing] K: Once you realize you can’t get George Clooney, what do you do? You have to make the character a person. Everyone works with somebody who, a situation will pop up and you know that no matter what you do, they are going to act irrationally because of something that happened prior. Everyone has a family member that won’t eat a certain thing, no matter how you prepare it, and the reasons that they won’t eat it are completely irrational. Everyone has the friend that just is constantly late, or changing plans last minute. These are X factors, these are things that make us human. And building a well-developed character who’s, even if they are hyper competent and they have planned everything out, still has to deal with base urges and moments of irrationality that are going to make them act in a way that maybe isn’t furthering the plan. But, they’re still showing agency when they do it. So for instance, you know the character standing at the thing and it’s like ‘okay I’m supposed to be following this guy who’s got the thing, but holy crap, there’s the guy who killed my brother! He’s walking that way, but I need to follow the guy who has the MacGuffin, because we need the MacGuffin, but this might be my only chance. He’s getting on a plane, I might never find this guy again.’ And decides to leave and go - it’s still agency, he’s still making a decision to his benefit, but at the cost of something else. R: Unless he figures out how to do both. So, as an editor, obviously you can’t name names - K: [laughing] R: - but what has been your experience with writers being told that they need to add agency to a story? K: Frequently confusion. R: Confusion because they don’t know what the heck that advice means, so they needed this episode. K: The thing is that if you have a completed book, a lot of times I think that you think your character is doing the best that your character can. I haven’t had to have that conversation a lot, but the times that I have weren’t the story as a whole, it was isolated to individual areas of the story. And a lot of times I framed it as ‘character So-and-so needs to make a decision. They need to do something. They need to stand up for themself. Or they have this thing that they know, they need to act on that, or they need to tell someone about it so that person can act on it. When I find areas where I’m like, I need this character to display a little more agency, is typically when - I’ll be honest with you, a lot of times it’s when the story stalled out a little bit. R: But is that a result of the character not behaving with agency? K: Well frequently when we get the character to act a little bit more on their behalf or make some decisions, it takes the storyline back up. R: Yeah. K: Weird, huh? [laughing] R: Funny how that happens. K: This all goes back to what we’re talking about here of going ‘why is it a big deal if my character’s passive?’ Because that can get boring. R: Yeah. And part of this is that we need the energy as a reader from that character’s desire to get from point A to point B, whether that’s an action or a target or an emotional state or whatever. That carries us along through the book and that makes the pages turn, versus the character just milling about with their hands in their pockets. K: I’ll leave us with this thought. I find a lot of times that characters who lack agency are typically not well-developed characters. And I’m not talking about in a certain scene, I’m not talking about the weird spot where the story’s stalling out a little bit, I’m talking about pervasive through the entirety of the story. A lack of agency is frequently coupled with a character that maybe isn’t that well-developed and whose arc, yes I’m tying in other vague advice to this, but whose character arc maybe isn’t that well fleshed out. Because if you have a well-developed character, you should know in your head what they would do in certain situations. You should know how they would act. If the character’s personality or development is ‘I will sit in this place, watch everything happen, and wait for it to be over,’ well, maybe that’s not a character you should be writing an entire book about. [laughing] All of this ties to everything else. All of this has to do with the other major things about books: themes, character arcs, plot, and place. Because characters who are well-developed shouldn’t need a lot of nudging to help themselves. R: Right, so if you have a character that knows what they want, sometimes this meandering comes out of the writer not quite sure how to get to the next thing, and might I suggest you just cut the scene and go to the next thing that is actually sometimes exactly what it needs. K: You brought up a very good point. I think a lot of times when, especially if it’s not pervasive if we’re dealing with an individual scene, it’s more a product of the writer struggling in that area. Either not knowing how to get us to the next place we need to be, be it physical or otherwise, or not having a good understanding of what’s gonna continue to happen in the story and either not wanting to write themselves into a corner, or not having a good way to continue. R: Yeah. And so then they get stuck in that character-introspective moment where they’re staring out the kitchen window, thinking about lots of stuff without acting in any way. K: It’s okay to have quote-unquote “downtime” for characters. It’s okay to give them some time where they need to think and regroup. I would say that is even displaying agency, that’s a planning portion. I’m not saying that every character at all times in your book must be active and must be doing things to further themselves to a goal. What I am saying, however, is that if they’re not doing anything through the course of the book, or if there are big chunks of it where we’re kinda going ‘whaaat’s going on here?’, that’s a larger problem. And one is easier to fix than the other. [laughing] Anyway, so, that’s agency, and that’s kinda what I have to say about it. That’s all I have to say about that. R: I doubt that very much. K: Well, that’s all I’ll say for now then. R: Yes, ‘cause we are over time. For me, if I get the feedback that my character’s lacking agency, I take a good look at what’s happening. And as Kaelyn said, if my character’s not a force that is causing things to happen in this story, or if there’s unnecessary downtime, or if there just isn’t a character arc, ‘cause sometimes I get this feedback for short stories. K: Mhm. R: And so that’s a good easy way to figure out like ‘oh, right, I don’t have a character arc. This character goes and observes a thing, and I’m trying to make commentary on the thing but I’m not actually having the character affect any change on the thing.’ Then it’s not really agency, it is the character observing the world around them and having an opinion about it, which isn’t the same as having a character arc. K: Yeah. R: If that happens in a novel, it’s more excruciating because it’s a lot more words that you’ve put time into. I rewrote SALVAGE, the first 60% that I rewrote, the first time I rewrote the first 60%, was because of an agency issue. K: Mhm. R: My characters start out the book; they’re stuck on the island, and all I did to change it was change the way they were planning their stuck-ness. K: [laughing] R: They’d been there the same amount of time, they were the same amount of frustrated, they were in the same amount of danger and having to make sure that nobody noticed them that shouldn’t notice them. But, in the second version, there’s a heist. Versus the first version where there’s a lot of watching the clock. And which one would you rather read? K: Exactly, yeah. There’s certainly an argument to make -- I think, a strong argument that I would say is borderline law -- that watching characters act with agency is far more engaging than watching them as passive observers. R: Yep. K: Unless it’s Twilight, and then you’re just gonna sell a billion copies of basically a weird choose-your-own-adventure, but not really. R: Yes. Well, not all our characters are as beautiful and attractive and wonderful and captivating as Bella, so we’re just gonna have to give them agency. K: She doesn’t know how beautiful - R [overlapping]: Right no of course not - K [overlapping]: No of course not, no - R: The plot is her finding out that people find her attractive. K: And she smells really good. [Both laughing] R: A fine vintage. Okay. K: Twilight is one of those things that like, I wonder if 150 years from now when we’re all dead, and they look back at this and go like ‘God, people in the earlier 2000s were weird.’ R: I mean, you could say that about most ages I think. K: That’s true. Yeah. R: There’s plenty of evidence throughout history of humans being just freakin’ weird. K: Context is everything, but. R: Yep. K: Yeah, so anyway, that’s agency. R: It is. Go get some, and give it to your characters. K: And always agency on your own behalf, you as a real life person always get to have. R: Yeah! I mean, especially when you’ve been locked inside for a year and a half. It’s about time to get some agency. K: Yup. R: So if you have questions or comments, or you still don’t know what agency is or what to do with it when someone tells you you need more, then you can @ us on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast, or you can go back to some of the other episodes we talked about; they are all at wmbcast.com. We would love if you would leave a rating and review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts. And also we are super grateful to all our patrons at Patreon.com/wmbcast who support the costs involved in making these episodes for you. So if they are helpful, and you have the cash and the agency - K: [laughing] R: Please head on over there. K: I see what you did there. R: Oh yeah, you like that? Thanks. K: I did, I did. So thanks everyone, we’ll see you in two weeks!

Reid's start. (5:00) How to manage customer expectations. (21:00) The entrepreneurial epiphany. (32:00) Getting the first job. (42:00) How added expenses are worth it. (52:00) Why we only have 2 employees. (57:00) How to keep good subcontractors. (59:00) How to winterize your pool. (1:05:00) The margins you bid for. (1.15:00) Mentorship. (1:24:00) Quotable Moments “My last interview was for an internship when I was 16 years old.” – R “No matter how good of a designer you are, in my opinion, you also have to be a salesman. If you're not, your designs will just sit there.” – R “You have no idea how many calls I get from customers I submitted bids to who called me 6 months later and said “we actually should have gone with you because we ended up over what you actually bid us.” – R “The key to getting referrals is managing customer expectations of budget and time.” – R “In this field, you're married to your customer.” – R “When they step on my job site, I don't care what subcontractors do on other job sites but this is how we do it and I'll only work with guys that can handle doing it my way.” – R “When covid truly hit, it was the same week oil and gas went negative. We went two weeks without a single phone call and the weirdest thing happened… we got at least 15 phone calls that third week.” – R “4% of all the companies in the world ever make it to $1 million.” – M “The single biggest issue that I see with contractors today is that they're paying for the current project with the next project.” – R “We had the snowiest and coldest winter on record and we still had to get one job done so we actually rented a tent and tented the whole job and put gas heaters in it. We built the whole project under a tent.” – R Resources Schindler Design Co website Reid's email. Check us out on Youtube Follow us on social media: LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram Subscribe to our newsletter, The Countdown Have questions? Email us! More from Martin theprofitproblem.com annealbc.com    martin@anealbc.com  LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from Khalil benali.com  khalil@benali.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from The Cashflow Contractor Ask Us A Question Sign Up For A Free Consultation thecashflowcontractor.com  info@thecashflowcontractor.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram

Can you burn calories by eating celery? Is milk a bad choice when you have a cold? Can shellfish only be consume in months ending in “R”? You butter believe we are hitting these topics and more on this animalistic episode of Rumor Flies!We are now doing more stuff on Twitch! Join us as we chat about topics from the show, have debates, and more!We have merch! Check out our stuff on threadless! Please send us suggestions for new products and changes to current stuff!Show notes, as always, can be found here.Want to support the show? Head on over to Patreon! Bonus episodes and more await…Check us out at www.rumorfliespodcast.com, on facebook, @rumorflies on twitter and instagram. Please consider leaving us a review on iTunes - it makes the world go 'round and will reap you sweet, sweet karma.You can check us out on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, and beyond!RSS Feed: http://www.rumorfliespodcast.com/episodes/?format=rss

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and tell us your favorite novel covers! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 44: Theme and Character Arcs transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00] R: Welcome back to We Make Books, a podcast about publishing—and writing. And sometimes going backward and revising. Whoops. I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.   K: And I’m acquisitions editor, I, Kaelyn Considine, at Parvus Press.   R: How dare you.   [Both laugh]   K: It’s the heat. It’s the heat and then quarantine.   R: The heat is definitely getting to us. We have to turn off the AC to record these, folks, so pity us.   K: Hi, everyone! No, today we actually have, I think, an interesting episode. We are going based off a Twitter question we got from one of our listeners, Ashley Graham, about themes and character arcs and how to manage them and make them good in your story.   R: And by good, we mean strong or tight or—   K: Pervasive, efficient—   R: Pervasive. [giggles]   K: What are some other words we use to describe them here? Lots of very positive adjectives, to be sure.   R: Mhm, yeah.   K: You want your character arcs tight and your themes pervasive.   R: Yup.  K: It’s kind of what we’re left with here. Anyway, we had a lot of fun talking about this because it’s something that I really enjoy working with authors on.   R: Yeah, when Kaelyn gets a novel manuscripts, this is what she dives in and gets to.   K: It is, yeah. This is at the very developmental level and I think anybody who’s a writer that’s listening to this and has submitted and gotten rejections has probably, at some point, gotten a note to “work on their themes or character arcs.”   R: Mhm.   K: Which is just so helpful and specific.   R: That’s why they call them form rejections.   K: Yes. So, we spent a lot of time in this talking about, first of all, what are these themes and character arcs? And how do you work on them? A lot of fun examples in movies and shows and, you know, like I said this is one of my favorite things about editing, is working on these parts of the book.   R: See, Kaelyn thought that she could ask me to restrain her, but the fact is I also love these, so we did go on a little bit. But I think we’ve had longer episodes. We’re fine.   K: Definitely, yeah. We were like kids in a candy shop for this, to be sure.   R: That’s true.   K: Anyway, so take a listen. We hope this is helpful, if this is something you’ve been struggling with in your writing process, and we’ll see you on the other side of the music.   [intro music plays]   K: I don’t know what I could’ve hit. That’s upsetting. Anyway! So, if my elbow hit something is that a character arc or is that a theme?   R: I think that’s a theme. Or it might be a story element…   K: It could be a plotline. Is the elbow a character?   R: Is the elbow haunted?   K: I mean, I assume so. It’s mine, yes. Anyway, today we’re talking about—one of our listeners, Ashley Graham, sent us a question about, I don’t know. Do we wanna read the question?   R: I’m gonna summarize it. Basically, Ashley was working on a short fiction piece and was suggested to, by an editor, that the theme and character arc could use some clarification. So, what the heck does that mean? That’s feedback that people will see.   K: That’s very common feedback, actually. Probably, I think, a lot of people listening to this who have submitted something either to an agent or an editor, probably got feedback that may have specifically said character arc and theme.   R: Yeah. And I think this one might have been for a publication, so short fiction market. And you’re gonna get that kind of stuff a lot because their second-tier response is going to be, “Your story almost made it, you could’ve tightened this up,” you know?   K: Yeah, and also, especially with short fiction, you’re gonna see that more because you have to do a lot in a short amount of time.   R: Yeah.   K: Now that is not, by any stretch of the imagination, to indicate that you won’t see this with long-form fiction because, believe me, you will. I’ve said it multiple times myself—   R: It might be easier to go astray with a long novel.   K: It’s very true. So, why is it these two things, a lot, that you hear? Because they’re a little, especially in the case of themes, they’re a little nebulous and not as easy to pin down. A plot is, I think, a lot of times easier because it’s the story. When you sit down to write an outline, what you’re outlining is usually the plot.    R: It’s concrete, it’s easy to point at and go, “That is part of the plot. That is a thing that happens and it happens in an order and if that order goes awry then it’s not a plot anymore.”   K: That’s exactly what I was gonna say, was that when you’re outlining something and it’s the plot, it’s an order of actions happening in sequence, or maybe out of sequence, depending on how you’re writing, but in how they’re going to be presented in the final book or short story, or what have you.   So, before we get started, let’s kinda define some things here. So a plot, obviously, we know what a plot is. That is not a character arc, it is not a theme. A plot is the elements of a story that take place and happen to the characters. That is a very broad definition, obviously, but plots are sequences on actions and things that happen.   R: Yeah, I’ve even heard it defined as a sequence of actions, reactions, and complicating factors.   K: Yes, that’s a really good way to describe it. Themes and character arcs, and it’s funny because character arcs and plots get confused together and then themes and morals get confused together. A theme is not a moral, a moral is, we’re talking strictly in terms of terms in literature. A moral is a lesson that is learned. A moral is the kid sticks his hand in the cookie jar when he’s not supposed to, it gets stuck, he breaks the cookie jar and has cuts on his hand and his mom finds out he was doing all of this anyway.    So what has he learned? He has learned to listen to his mother because maybe it’s not just that she doesn’t want him to eat cookies when he shouldn’t, maybe it’s that he could get hurt. That is a moral. That is actions and the plot leading up to a character changing themselves because they learned something. That is not a theme.So, now that we have—   R: It’s a character arc though.   K: It certainly could be.   R: Yeah.   K: And so that’s why I’m saying, plots and character arcs and themes and morals can get confused. So now that we’ve established what we’re not talking about, let’s talk about what we are talking about.   And let’s start with themes because that one is a little more nebulous, I think. A theme in a story is, at its basis level, an underlying message. It’s a big idea.   R: Mhm.   K: It is conceptual. It’s things that do not physically, tangibly exist in the world. If you are saying, “Yes, the theme is this,” and a lot of times, if it’s something you can actually touch, that’s probably not actually a theme.   R: So my theme is not coffee?   K: Your theme might be coffee, Rekka.   R: I was gonna say! You’re speaking in universals here, but I just don’t feel like I can relate to what you’re saying.   K: Your—your theme might be coffee. [laughs] Now, somebody might—you might come in and say, “What about the ocean? What if the theme of this story is the ocean?” Well, my answer to that is that the theme of the story is probably not the ocean.   The theme of the story might be travel or man versus nature or the horror of the unknown, and the ocean just happens to embody that.   R: Yup.   K: Again, these are Big Ideas. These are things that you cannot touch, feel, or hold. So things like love, death, good versus evil, a lot of coming of age stories. Stories of rebellion and overthrowing corrupt systems of government. Survival. These are themes. And those are big themes. You can have smaller ones like… family. Finding things that are lost.   R: Appreciating what you had all along, kind of thing,   K: Exactly, yes. Realizing that home was really where you wanted to be this whole time.   R: Yeah. Adventure was the friends you made along the way.      K: Exactly, yes. The other thing that I always tell people when trying to identify themes in their story and bring them forward a little more, is what do you want the reader to walk away thinking, feeling, or knowing? If the theme of your story is: the adventure was the friends you made along the way, then you want the reader to go, “You know what? I really need to go spend some more time with my friends and do something fun with them.”   R: Mhm.   [09:55]   K: Or “ I need to go out and make some new friends,” or “I’m gonna go have an adventure and see if I make any new friends.”   R: Yeah.   K: Your—if, you know, the theme is something like death and loss, maybe you want the reader to leave feeling really sad and depressed and hopeless, staring into the void of existence.   R: You monster.   K: Hey, I mean we’ve all read a book like that.   R, laughing: Yes. In high school. They were required reading.    K: Ohh, oh yeah.   R: So, another way to phrase this or to think about it is to—say, your example of the ocean and say, “Okay, but that’s still a noun.” If you were to remove the noun, what’s left? What’s underneath that? If the setting and the characters are the carpet and you pull up the carpet, what’s underneath it? What is the most fundamental, base human relatable thing that you’re communicating with this story?   K: And that’s what makes themes so difficult to manage and to bring forward in stories, is that they are intangible. You can’t—There’s a frequently said thing that editors use which is, “Show me, don’t tell me.” R: Right.   K: And that is—   R: We should have an episode on that.   K, laughs: Yeah. But that is themes. You can’t put a sentence in there saying, “And the theme is: love.” No, you need—it’s something that has to be woven through your story for the reader to pick up on their own. You shouldn’t have to tell the reader what the theme of this story is.    So, now, before we go too far down that line, let’s kinda talk about character arcs and what is a character arc? They’re definitely a little more tangible, if you will, than themes. You can sit down—and I encourage people to sit down and write out a character arc. Rekka, you’ve done this a few times.   R: A few...yes. Just a couple.    K: Just a few. But a character arc is partially, mostly, a lot of times, an inner journey. It’s a transforma—   R: It’s a transformation. Ah, there we go.   K: It’s a transformation of the character over the course of the story. We’re seeing them start out a certain way, the plot affects them, and they have to change and adapt accordingly. And some definitions of this will say it must be a permanent change. I don’t buy into that because I don’t think that everything needs to be a fundamental personality shift.   R: Well, sometimes you just really wanna write a really long series and that character’s gonna have to learn that lesson more than once.   K: Yeah… Hey, nobody said these characters have to be smart!   R: Yeah, they don’t have to grow ever upward.   K: No, character arc is something. Theme has been what it is for a long time. Character arc is something that, I think, the standards and definitions of it have shifted a little bit over time. In fiction, especially, if you go back to when literature was first being really defined and written about and studied, you’ll find a lot of stuff that says, “Well, a character arc must have these elements: the character must start here; they must encounter or create a problem for themselves; they must come up with a way to overcome that problem, or get the thing that they need; they must suffer a setback; they must recover from the setback; they must resolve the storyline.”   R: And usually in a Three Act, there’s a second setback that’s extra bad.   K: Yeah, yes. I don’t agree with this. I think that there’s no such thing as a formulaic character arc.   R: Right. And, for one, that’s a very Western oriented, Western-centric character arc. You’re going to travel outside Western stories, you’re going to see different character arcs.   K: I would make the argument that character arcs that are a very Western thing that can be applied to a lot of stories because the nature of stories has character arcs, but—   R: Well, I would argue that the nature of Western civilization is colonialism and that sure is going in and applying new rules to other people’s stuff, so. [laughs]   K: Absolutely.    R: So burn down character arcs, got it.   K: Yeah. No, no. And, look, what makes stories interesting is seeing the people in them grow and change. The degree to which that happens varies wildly across all genres and all cultures and how—I’ve had literature professors that said, “If your character is not X amount different by the end of the story, then that’s not a successful character arc,” and I think that’s bullshit.   Because character arcs, which are obviously very tied to character development, do not necessarily need to be a fundamental shift in personality.   R: So, why don’t we start talking a little bit examples. We named one off the air, before we started recording, which was basically any character that Harrison Ford plays.   K, laughing: Yeah!   R: Do any of those characters fundamentally change across the time spent on screen?   K: Well, let’s scale it down a bit to characters Harrison Ford plays that appear in multiple movies. Franchise Harrison Ford characters.    R: Okay, so we’re talking Indiana Jones, Han Solo, and then Jack Ryan.    K: Okay, well I don’t know anything about Jack Ryan, so I’m not gonna be able to help there.   [15:57]      R: Basically, he’s—once again, we’re talking about uber-competent male action heroes, basically.   K: I am going to focus primarily on Indiana Jones and Han Solo because that’s an interesting dichotomy. One of them has a character arc, the other absolutely does not. Spoiler alert: Indiana Jones does not really have much of a character arc.   R: Um, as we said, his character arc is… he needs a thing, he has a competitor for the thing, the competitor gives him a setback, he overcomes, approaches again, has a bigger setback, and then he gets the thing. It’s not a personal growth, it is his striding toward a goal.   K: Yes, but that is his plot.   R: That is also the movie plot, but I’m just saying—is it a flattening of the character arc with the plot, when the character doesn’t change very much?   K: It is because Indiana Jones does not change over the course of the story. He ends and begins every movie with, It Belongs in A Museum.    [both laugh]   R: Fortune over ___, kid.   K: Yeah, that’s Indiana Jones. It’s It Belongs in A Museum or I Don’t Want the Nazis to Have This. That is everything motivating Indiana Jones throughout all of his movies. Han Solo, on the other hand, does have a character arc. Han Solo starts out as a smuggler and a guy who, according to his prequel, was running drugs.    R: Mhm.   K: And he eventually becomes somebody who, instead of just living this sort of private-smuggler lifestyle—   R: Out for himself.   K: Yeah! Out for himself. Has friends and family that he grows to care about. And maybe he’s not as gung-ho Freedom Fighter as they are, but he certainly takes their values and their goals into account and wants to help them and be successful in that. Then he walks into a lightsaber—but we’ll, you know… that’s… [laughs] But! It is a different, it’s another downswing on the character arc is that we see that Han Solo, at the end of the day, is still Han Solo.   R: Mhm.   K: Because what happens? He goes back to smuggling pirate loner lifestyle with Chewbacca. We pick up with him again and, yeah, he’s different but of course he is, he’s older. So there, again, successful character arc! But what he’s showing us is that, at the end of the day, this is what he does and this is what he knows and this is what he’s good at.   R: Well, but, the question is, is he good at it or is he Chewbacca’s sidekick.   K, laughing: How good he is is a different query.   R: Okay, so—   K: Actually, real quick sidebar, if you think about it, everything we’ve seen of Han Solo, he’s not actually a very good smuggler.   R: No, he’s terrible! So the question is, does your character start from a default? And what we’re saying here is Han Solo, his default is smuggler, loner, trying to make the next paycheck and keep himself out of trouble.   K: Scruffy-faced nerf-herder.   R: Whenever he is thrown into the mix with people who are potential friends, they mess up his default and pull him away from that. But send an obstacle into his path—like a son—and he reverts back to his default when he doesn’t know how to cope.   K: Yeah, exactly. So, Han Solo is actually, and I think, primarily accidentally, a very successful and good example of a character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: Indiana Jones: It Belongs in A Museum or Stop The Nazis.   R: I think he’s intentionally left out of the character arc.   K: Yeah, I mean—but this is the thing, that’s not what those stories are about.   R: Right. That’s to the point of this question is, when you are told to tighten up a character arc or a theme, you do need to know what kind of story you’re telling before you decide how deep into character arcs and themes you need to dive. I mean, you might get this feedback from one person, and they might be off the mark for what you were trying to do with your story.   K: Mhm.   R: Which can also tell you, maybe you need to extract a little of that character arc and not make it feel like it’s so much about developing a character, if you are just telling a whip-cracking, gun-toting archaeologist tale. Don’t do that. Archaeologists don’t appreciate it.   K, laughing: Yeah, that’s uh—   R: Another episode.   K: In case anyone was confused at home, that’s not what archaeology’s actually like, sadly. Anyway, now that we’ve talked about what character arcs and themes are, why are these two things that people are frequently told to tighten up? And frequently told to tighten them together?   We’ve already said that character arcs are closer to plots, themes are closer to morals, but they’re not the same thing. So how do character arcs and themes overlap? Themes motivate and drive characters. This feeds both the plot and the character arc. The plot, obviously, because based on the theme, and therefore the character’s motivation, the character will be making that will affect both the plot and their character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: That’s where things start to get a little tricky. Those two are very closely intertwined. Because obviously the plot, in a lot of cases, is dependent upon what the character is doing. Their choices and decisions dictate what happens next in the story.   So then, drill down for that, what is influencing their decision-making, their motivation? And where is the motivation coming from? And that’s where you start to get to the themes of the story. So, if one of the themes of your story is survival and, let’s think of—   R: Alien.   K: Okay, that’s a more fun example. I was gonna say The Hatchet, remember that book we all had to read in middle school?   R: Yeah, we’re not doing that, we’re doing Alien.   K: Okay, we’re doing Alien.   R: Mostly because there was a point you made earlier about character and we used Harrison Ford’s various characters as the example, but I love the example of, specifically in terms of survival, and specifically in terms of the character of Ripley, Ripley doesn’t really change throughout the movie. What she does is survive because she has the skillset, which is the ability to think things through logically in the first place, to say, “Okay, we need to not be doing this.”   Basically the theme of Alien, correct me if I’m wrong, is We Should Have Listened to Ripley?   K: I mean, yeah. Probably. But beyond just the theme of—Granted, this goes into further expansions in the Alien franchise, but—   R: Well, let’s stick with Alien for one. The other movies in the franchise are different genres, basically. So sticking with the space truckers’ monster-horror survival.   K: Alien is a horror movie in space. That’s all it is. It was groundbreaking, genre-defining, but it is a horror movie in space. So, the themes of the movie, as Rekka said: survival. There’s also, I would say, a theme of frustration.    R: Mhm. The capitalist bureaucracy.   K: Well, and that’s what I was getting into.   R: Okay.   K: So then we’re introducing a conflict element there that is beyond simply: there’s a thing laying eggs in people’s chests.   R: That thing laying eggs in people’s chest wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for the company.   K: Yes, exactly. So then, if you want to take all of that and say, “Okay, so how does that affect Ripley’s character arc?” Ripley is changed at the end of the story, not necessarily physically or personality-wise, but emotionally she is very affected. And she is going to then—have you ever heard about how Alien was supposed to end? One of the alternative endings they shot?   The alien gets Ripley, essentially, and then when whoever is calling in over the ship, the alien gets the intercom and answers back in her voice, requesting for orbits to come back to Earth.   R: Gotcha.   K: So, it was a very bleak ending, obviously.   R: But a lot of monster movies do this. They leave off with you not feeling safe.   K: Yes, and so that is another theme. What do you wanna leave your readers with? And, in this case, the movie pivoted a little bit and said, “Well, we wanna give the audience a sense of closure,” and that all of this, this theme of survival, she did survive. So rather than going with the theme of feeling unsafe, which was another theme running through that entire movie, paranoia, uncertainty—   R: Claustrophobia.   K: Claustrophobia. Anybody could become your enemy at any moment.   R: Body horror. Yup.    K: Yeah. So instead of leaving off with that theme, they decided to be a little kinder and pivot a little bit to say, “Hey, determination, intelligence, stick-to-itiveness, and survival will make you victorious.” Which is another set of themes. So then, back to, how does this tie into the character arc is: Ripley is a changed person at the end of this.   Boy, has she seen some shit. And now she knows that this corporation is up to no good. She is no longer just in it for the money. They say this is a long, awful journey, but it’s very good money. It’s totally worth it.   R: Mhm.   K: Maybe it’s not worth it anymore. There’s absolutely some anti-capitalist undertones in there.   R: Mhm.   K: Ripley comes out of this, even though personality-wise she hasn’t changed—the movie takes place over a relatively short period of time. But Ripley’s definitely got some different thoughts and motivations now, at the end of this. So, even though she hasn’t undergone a radical, inner transformation, she certainly thinks different things now than she did before.   R: Yeah, for sure.   K: So, yeah. That’s a great example of some really cool themes and how they affect—and it’s interesting because you could take it a step further and say how they affect the character arc, rather than the plot.   R: Right.    K: Because in this case, a lot of Ripley’s decisions are reactionary. Things are happening and she’s trying to adapt and recalibrate very, I’m only thinking of two instances in the whole—really, one and a half off the top of my head, in which she goes on the offensive, so to speak.   R: Right. Well that’s also sort of a plot thing is that your character is reacting to things up until a certain point, and then it’s at the time when they decide to say, “No, I will take care of this myself,” that’s when you’re entering that last act.   K: Yes! But, then, by the time we get to the, “I’ll take care of this myself,” for the plot and the character arc, we all go back to the themes of Ripley kind of coming to a new understanding of how stuff is actually happening around her, rather than letting it happen to her.   R: Yeah.   K: Yeah. Anyway, I think that’s a good example.   R: Cool. So, now that we’ve talked about what they are, given you some examples, figured out how to un-intertwine the character arc and theme. How do you tighten them up? And since the example given was a short story for publication, let’s assume we’re doing this in under 7,000 words. How do you tighten up character arc and theme and you’ve also, presumably, got a plot in there, in a very efficient way?   K: All of these kind of work together. I think that anything you’re going to do to a short story, you can apply to longer form fiction and vice versa. So me, personally, with—and Rekka has been on the receiving end of this a couple times—when working with authors, let’s start with themes. I mentioned before, one of the first things I ask the author is: What do you want the audience to know, think, or feel that they didn’t at the beginning of the book?   And when I say know, I don’t mean you’re—   R: Teaching them.   K: Yeah, you’re not putting a graph-chart in there and saying, “And then the price of gold went up to—” I’m not talking about facts, I’m talking about what you want them to know about these nebulous concepts in the way you want them to know it? So, identifying those things really will help you figure out where your themes are.    The other thing I always say, and this is where it starts to tie into the character arc, is look at the character arcs and the plot and the motivation. What are the characters doing and why are they doing it? What is driving them to do this? Because that’s where you’re gonna find a lot of your themes. And then, if theme is very important to you, if you really want to hammer a message home, making sure that your characters act and are motivated by that theme, consistently—and this isn’t to say it can’t evolve, it absolutely can. But making sure that they are correctly motivated, based on what the theme is, is a really good way to help tighten that up.   Then, that helps to feed into their character arc. Because you have a character, then, acting, reacting, and making decisions based on what is important to them and how the story is building.   [30:09]   R: And I think, at this point, if you’re feeling like, “I can’t make this character make this decision,” then that tells you that you are not succeeding at either theme or character arc.   K: Yes… and—   R: Or not in a way that supports what you set out to do with the plot.   K: Yes, and listen. I want to be clear about something that every story does not need to be a Magnum Opus of subtle themes and ideas woven through this— it’s going to be studied in college 101 classes for decades to come. But you do need a theme for your story. You need there to be something that is important in all of this. Otherwise it is a bland series of actions happening one after the other.   R: And if you don’t feel that it is a bland series, or your beta readers don’t feel that it is a bland series of actions, one after another, that means there’s a theme in there. So if you’re having trouble identifying it, that doesn’t mean immediately that you don’t have one.   I will use an example of Mike Underwood, when I was working on Annihilation Aria with him. So we had a few calls, I read the manuscript multiple times, and Mike had actually said the themes of the story are very important to him. So I went through the manuscript, and I do this with most books that I edit, and I kind of write out a plot outline based on what I’m reading, what I see happening in the book. Part of this is, one, that it’s just easier for me to keep track of things, but then also because if I show it to the author and say, “Okay, this is how I’m reading this,” and they’re going, “No, no! That’s not it at all,” then it’s like, okay, now we need to have a conversation.   But one of the things that I like to do through that is mark off, in my notes of this outline, where I’m identifying and seeing certain themes. And then we have a conversation about that. And if we’re seeing a real imbalance of them, or I’m only seeing them come through in certain parts of the story, or if I’m having a real hard time nailing them down and saying, “I feel like I’ve got ten themes in this story. Which one’s the most important to you?”    And I think that’s a really good exercise is, you know, most authors out there, I’m guessing if you’re pretty far into your Work-In-Progress at this point, you probably already have an outline. So go through it and try to pick out sections where you think certain themes are coming through. And I actually color-code them and then I can look through and see, “Oh, there’s a lot of red and not so much blue.”   R: Mhm. If you’re a pantser and you write without an outline, this is something you do, probably in your revision process. Write down a summary of each scene and that becomes an outline. Just because you’re doing it after the fact doesn’t make it less of an outline. And then do the same practice with that.   K: Exactly. It’s not easy to do. There’s a reason that anybody who’s taking any sort of an English literature class will say there’s a reason you spend a lot of time working on and learning about themes is because they’re intangible. They’re nebulous. There isn’t a point at which, in the story, the character breaks the fourth wall and says, “Hey, just so you know, we’re introducing a new theme here! It’s compassion!”   R: But at the same time, you study examples in order to identify the universalities and that’s what themes are.   K: Yes.   R: So, if you learn how to work your theme around compassion, you can write twenty novels that are completely different that are all about compassion, and you’d get really good at it. You know?   K: Yeah, absolutely.   R: That’s why romance writers are really good at what they’re doing. By choosing their genre, they know what the theme is and they stick to it and, by the end, capital R, Romance writers are really, really efficient at getting stories written because they’ve already done this work. And every time you do this with a theme, it answers questions about the plot.   K: Yeah.   R: What needs to happen here? I’m lost. Well, okay, what’s your theme? What needs to happen here? Oh, well this!   Yeah, you answered your own question.   K: So, just to talk a little—with character arc, tightening that up and defining it a little better. Again, outlines here help. And it doesn’t need to be anything too detailed. It just needs to be this, then this, then this, then this and then throw some lines in there explaining what led to or motivated the character to get to that point. Character arcs, it’s funny because in some ways they are far more concrete than themes. You can actually sit down and outline a character arc, but I think it is harder sometimes to say, “Is this a character arc?”   The most important thing in the character arc is the character has to be different at the end than when they started. It can be something like RIpley in Alien where she hasn’t undergone a major personality shift, but she has changed the way she thinks and will act differently now because of that.    As opposed to someone like Luke Skywalker, who has the farmboy to legendary hero character arc, but Luke goes on this whole journey and at the end of it, he is a very, very, very different person than when he started because of all of the things that happened to him. All of the experiences, the adversity, the finding out his father’s Darth Vader. I mean, that alone—   R: Oh, I know. Plus he literally can’t go back to the life he had before.   K: Yeah, exactly. And that’s actually a very good marker of a successful character arc. Can they go back to how things were before? And if the answer is yes, your character has probably not had enough of a character arc for it to be considered a character arc.   R: Or it’s Indiana Jones.   K: Or it’s Indiana Jones. Because Indiana Jones always just goes back to how things were before. Indiana Jones has proof that God exists—   R: And goes back to university and just keeps teaching the Neolithic Era.   K: And just kept living his life! [laughs] Indiana Jones has multiple instances of literal proof that not only does the Judeo-Christian God exist, but also Hindu deities and various other things.   R: Mhm.   K: Aliens! All of this stuff and just continues on like it’s nothing. I don’t know what that says about him. If we should be impressed or horrified.   R: I think we’re supposed to be impressed. The idea being that the first time we see it happen is not the first time it happens for him.   K: I wanna be very clear about something: in the timeline of Indiana Jones because we all know—   R: Are we counting the River Phoenix and Young Indiana Jones?   K: Oh, no, but we’re counting the beginning of Last Crusade, to be sure.   R: Okay, alright.   K: Okay, so we’ve got Last Crusade, we’ve got that awesome train scene, whatever. Chronologically, then, Temple of Doom actually happens first.   R: Right, so we have the intro to Last Crusade, we have Temple of Doom—   K: And Temple of Doom, we establish that Hindu deities are clearly a real thing and a serious force to be reckoned with. Even if you wanna say, “Well, maybe it wasn’t the Hindu deities, it was magic,” okay fine, it was still bad, it was still, you know, unhappy.   R: Yeah.   K: Alright, so then we go to Raiders of the Lost Ark, at the end of that we have established that the Judeo-Christian God is a real thing that exists and does not like Nazis and you should not open the box.   R: Yep.   K: Then, we go to The Last Crusade, and in case anybody was a little like, “Meh, I’m not sure, that could’ve been who-knows-what, just because they said it was the Ark of the Covenant doesn’t mean that’s what it really was,” well now we’ve got the Holy Grail. The literal, actual Holy Grail that has kept a Crusades-era knight alive and then, if we’re still gonna take this a step further, heals his dying father’s mortal wounds.   R: Yup.   K: So, we have now established that multiple deities actually, really exist and this guy just freaking goes back to teaching college like this hasn’t rocked his entire world.   R: Teachers have a limited amount of vacation time.   [K laughs]   R: What is he gonna do?   K: Doesn’t he get summers off? I just assumed that was when all of these were happening.   R: I don’t think he has tenure yet? Once he has tenure, maybe.   K: Yeah, yeah. Good point. Anyway, the whole point is: Indiana Jones, not a great character arc. Can he go back to the way things were? Yes. He does.   R: Apparently!   K: Over and over again.   R: He resets to default.   K: Yes. Getting back—I apologize, we got sidetracked there again—   R: It’s fine.   K: It’s fine, we get excited. So how do you actually go about tightening these up? When somebody gives you the incredible, helpful note of tighten up your themes and character arcs. So helpful. What do you do?   Well, so, for themes I think a good technique is sort of what I mentioned. Go back either through your outline or through your manuscript for revisions, and identify motivations and actions and what themes stem from those.   R: And color-code them maybe, like you  said.   [40:14]              K: Maybe color code them. Take a step back, so to speak. Take a thousand foot view and say, “Is the story driven by these or are they happening because the story’s the thing that’s driving here?” If it’s the second one, you do not have tight themes. The themes should be the ones driving the story and motivating the characters and influencing the plot.   R: And by driving the story, we don’t mean stop at the end of every two paragraphs and reiterate what your theme is.   K: Yes, so how do you tighten this up? Identify things that are happening. Be they actions of characters or elements of the plot. Maybe external forces of nature, depending on what your themes are, and go in and emphasize those a little bit. Make it so that—Yes, you can’t have a character turn to the audience, wink, and say, “I’m doing this for love!” But you certainly can have an inner dialogue where they are acknowledging and identifying that what is motivating them is their love for their dog.   R: Mhm.   K: Or, I guess, their significant other. Whatever.   R: Mostly the dog.   K: Yeah, probably the dog. This goes into the Show Me, Don’t Tell Me.   R: Mhm.   K: See the characters react based on things that are important to them, and that brings forward your themes. I don’t like the phrase “tighten up your themes” I like the phrase “strengthen your themes.”   R: Yeah.   K: And emphasize your themes. Showcase your themes. With themes, you’re not contracting them. You’re trying to disperse them a little bit more through the story. You are showing, not telling.   R: The thing is, like, a bouillon cube.   K: Yes.   R: It starts very small, but it goes throughout your entire project.   K: And then there’s no getting it out again. It’s in there.    R, laughing: Yeah.   K: Character arcs, on the other hand, are absolutely something that can be tightened and focused. So, how do you do this?    First, look at your themes. How are they affecting the story? How are they affecting the character’s decisions? Then look at what the characters are doing. Is it primarily reactionary? Are they just letting things happen to them? Or do they have agency? Are they making decisions themselves?    And it’s okay if, especially for the first part of the book, they’re just reacting. A lot of stories start out with a character just trying to get their feet under them, to recover and reorient themselves from something happening.   R: Although, I wanna say that that does not mean they shouldn’t have some sort of agency.   K: Yes, there needs to be decision-making in there.   R: Maybe they want something that they’re going to end up not wanting at the end.   K: Well, it can come down simply to something like they’re running away from the alien monster that grew from what was living in the back of their fridge and, do I run upstairs and lock myself in the bedroom or do I run out the front door?   Yes, they’re running, but they’re making a decision of how they’re best going to try to escape this.   R: And they can make the wrong decisions, too. I mean, that’s kind of part of the character arc.   K: That is part of the character arc. So tightening these up has to do with having the character come up against a conflict or an obstacle or a decision and then learning and growing and changing from it. So, again, identifying the parts at which your character is coming up against conflict in some way. And conflict, here, not meaning physical or argumentative. Sometimes the conflict can simply be, “It’s low tide, I need to catch fish and I can’t catch fish when it’s low tide.”   R: Right.    K: It can be like a force of nature. And then identifying how they’re reacting. Then, the next time it’s low tide, have they instead gone, “Ah, yes, I should catch extra fish because on this planet low tide lasts for three days and, therefore, I’m not going to be able to fish again for three days.” That’s growing and learning and making new mistakes.   R: Like staying on this planet where low tide lasts for three days. Can you imagine the smell?   K: There’s a very weird mood pattern on this planet.   R: It’s pitch black but low tide.   K: Yes, exactly. So somehow. It’s really weird because there is no moon, actually. No one really knows where the tides are coming from.   So identifying the areas of conflict for your character, where they’re coming up against adversity, and then seeing how they’re making decisions. If they’re just not reacting, if they’re just not doing anything over and over again, that’s not character development. That’s not a character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: Having them grow and change and learn, maybe thinking: Okay, I’m safe now. I’ve locked myself in my room from the alien creature from the back of the fridge can’t get me. Oh, hang on a second. It learned how to open doors. That’s... what do I do now? Okay, I’ve got a chair I can put up against the door.   And then finally getting to the point of going: you know what? I should have just run outside. I need to get out of this house.   R: Mhm.   K: So, again, identifying areas where your character is coming up into conflict, figuring out how they’re reacting, and making sure that they’re learning and changing and not reacting the same way.   This is not a real thing, I wish it was, the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? Obviously that’s not correct.   R: Right.   K: But it is important with character arcs and character development. Having your character do the same thing over and over again is not character arc.   R: Although there’s that stubbornness to that, or that unwillingness to grow, that can be the character arc and suddenly they realize doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is not getting me where I want to go. And the thing they learn is not to do that anymore.   K: I am now being eaten by the thing that lived in the back of the fridge. I regret my life choices.   R: Yes.    [both laugh]   R: And that’s the morality lesson—the moral of the tale is clean out your fridge.   K: Clean out your fridge, people!    R: And not just in August.   K: Is that a thing that you do in August?   R: No, I’m saying… it’s just about coming up on August as we record this, don’t make it an annual event. Make it a…   K: You know what’s funny is that with all of the quarantining and stuff, I have been so much better about cleaning the fridge out because I’m just here all the time.   R: Mhm.   K: And I’m kinda like, “Huh.”   R: Well, when you go into an office you procrastinate by going to the lounge and making a cup of coffee and getting a drink or going to talk to somebody about something. But, when you’re home, how do you procrastinate? The only thing you can do is clean.   K: It’s kinda like I’m looking at this going, “Huh, that might start talking to me soon. I should probably do something about that.”   R: But if you’d been going into an office, you would’ve said, “That thing is talking, I should probably do something about that.”   K: I’m gonna go back to my office.   R: At least you’d be the only one there.   K: Yeah, yeah. Anyway! That was a very long-winded way of answering your questions and I hope that—   R: We answered it.   K: We hope that was helpful and not just a series of me rambling about uh—   R: At least we talked about interesting movies and people can relate to, at least Ripley. Especially right now.   K: I think we can all relate to Ripley on some level. One of my favorite behind-the-scenes thing with Alien is, have you ever seen the cute scenes from there? There was a part, it was so ridiculous, it would have ruined the movie, the actor that played the alien was like 6’8” or something and they just put him in this giant rubber suit. And I can’t remember what part of the movie it would’ve been in, but it was one of those where the character’s backing slowly with their gun into a room and they hear something behind them and they turn around and the alien’s there.   And there’s footage out there—look this up—of the alien crab-walking up to them. So just imagine this giant, 6’8” man in this heavy, absurd rubber suit crab-walking on all fours up to this actor. It—I understand what they were trying to do, and the sound effects were certainly creepy, but… it just ruined the whole, it was too ridiculous-looking. Thankfully, they saw that and cut it.   R: I think that has a lot to do with the human joints versus where the joints were supposed to be in this alien.   K: Yeah. Well that’s like in The Exorcist with Regan walking backwards down the stairs. Part of how creepy about that is how unnatural it looks. You’ve got joints going in directions that maybe humans can do that, but they probably shouldn’t.   R: Right, yeah. Exactly. So theme. Stay limber.   K, laughing: Yes! Anyway, Ashley, we hope we answered that for you and keep us posted. Let us know how things go with the story. And if you want to keep us posted on anything else—   R: You can find us online. We are on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast. We are at Patreon.com/wmbcast where we have some awesome patrons who are supporting the show. And if you feel like we have been helpful, you can throw us some bus fare and stuff for when we’re allowed to go see each other again and get back together for our podcast episode recordings.   K: I was gonna say, I don’t think we’re allowed on buses anytime soon, Rekka.   R: No, we’re definitely not. And if you don’t have cash to spare to support the show, you can also help us out a lot by leaving us a rating on review on Apple podcasts. We’re everywhere. Stitcher, Spotify, all that good stuff. But if you wanna leave a review, it’s most helpful to leave it there. You can also shoot us an email, info@wmbcast.com, and we can answer a question if you have one. If you wanna keep it anonymous, that’s the way to do it. Otherwise, post it to Twitter like Ashley did, and we’ll answer it in a future episode.   K: Yeah. We’ll try our best. That’s for sure.   R: Yeah.   K: Alright, well, thanks everyone so much and we’ll see you in a couple weeks.   R: Take care, everyone!   [outro music plays]

Hey kids! Are you ready to sell out to make cash fast?!  In today's episode of We Make Books, we discuss what artistic integrity is, how to tell if you've blown yours to smithereens, and why it's 100% okay and good to make a living from your art. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns. Stay safe everyone! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 33: Artistic Integrity and Suffering For Your Arttranscribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)[0:00]K: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between! I’m Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.R: And I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.K: And, Rekka, as a writer—R: Which I am! Totally.K: Which you are, yeah, of course you are. You probably have a lot of opinions about what people tell you— R: Everything.K: Well, yeah, a lot of things in general. But, specifically, about other people’s opinions and them giving you suggestions and guidance and thoughts about what you should do, not only with your writing, but your life and how to support your continued writing, in your life.R, unenthused: Yeah. Yeah, they do that. So, you’re gonna intermix with a lot of people’s opinions over the course of your writing career. Especially as you let other people read your work. K: So today we’re talking about artistic integrity.R: Right. When people tell you to change stuff, where do you plant your feet?K: Not only people telling you to change stuff, however, also what you’re doing with your life in the meantime to support your art.R: Mhm.K: We were thinking about this episode and thinking about this idea of what does it truly mean to be a writer?R: Mhm.K: And we start far clear of that definition—Or, we really steer clear of that conversation because I, personally, am of the opinion that if you are trying to write something professionally, that makes you a writer.R: Correct. I also agree with you.K: Yes, so now that we’ve got that established.R: If you’re listening to this podcast and then, when it’s done, you go and you try to work on your writing, you are a writer.K: You are a writer. Congratulations.R: If you just listen to this podcast and you think about writing and you never go write. Uh, we might have to debate that one.K: You’re a… future writer.R: Yes, hopefully. Hopefully an aspiring writer.K: Yes, there you go.R: To be a writer without a modifier, is to write.K: There ya go. But there’s also a lot of conversation around, like, well if you’re doing this then you’re not serious about your writing career. If you’re, you know, not focused 100% on only writing, then how could you be serious about your writing career?R: Which is funny, you know, because it just occurred to me—we don’t cover this in the episode—but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been at a family gathering, speaking of opinions, where they find out I’m a writer and they say, “Oh you should write _____.” Children’s book. A Gone Girl. You know, whatever’s hot at the moment. Their opinion is you’ve gotta write the most commercial thing that I’ve actually heard of right now.K: Yeah, yeah. So there’s—You’re gonna run up against a lot of this stuff in your career, as you interact with people. So we, in this episode, talk first about this notion of if you’re not suffering, you’re not writing. Which is silly.R, sarcastically: If you’re not abusing prescription drugs or if you’re not abusing alcohol, then are you even trying to be creative?K: Yeah, exactly. Then what are you doing? But then, also, we discuss having to make changes and modifications to your story at the recommendations of other industry professionals. So it’s all within the same subject, but we’re covering two different angles from this. The before and the after, if you will.R: With an intro of: Why do we have to suffer, again? K: Yeah! Thanks everyone, again, for tuning in and we hope you enjoy the episode![intro music plays]R, deadpan: Kaelyn, I’m suffering.K: You’re suffering?R: Yes. Because I’m supposed to.K, ironically: And do you know what? That makes your work more valid!R: I am, yes, validated and authentic because of my pain and anguish.K: … Except you’re not because— R: No. ‘Cause that’s bullshit.K: ‘Cause that’s not really a thing.R: I mean, yes, it’s possible that someone who puts out good work is also suffering, but I would like to posit that I wish everyone felt better and that we could all see, because we all feel great, that suffering is not required for good art.K: So today we’re talking about artistic integrity.R: Or we’re going to try to.K: We’re going to try to. And what we kept coming back to is this idea that we seem to have a fixation on if you’re happy, you’re not making good art.R: If you haven’t cut off an ear, then you aren’t suffering enough.K: Well, I mean, look at tuberculosis. That was considered an artistic disease. People deliberately infected themselves with it because it was a slow, wasting, elegant disease. Of your body slowly breaking down and your heart not working anymore. R: Yeah. Lovely. Sign me up.K: Yeah, no. I mean that was… And, of course, it made you look like a vampire which was very in, in Victorian fashions, for whatever reason.R: It’s still kind of in sometimes, in some circles. Yeah, I mean, just give me some consumption and allow me to cough blood into my lace handkerchief on a settee and that’s how it works, right? K: Pretty much, yeah. You know the: [coughs softly] Oh goodness. I’d better tuck that away. I feel like every movie set in that era now—R: Someone has consumption, yeah. Both: Discreetly coughing blood into a handkerchief.K: And then, you know—R: Hiding it from their loved ones. That’s the ticket. That’s how you get to the Big Times.K: Look at Mary Shelley! She wrote Frankenstein while she and her husband and some of their friends were off seaside trying to cure his tuberculosis.R: Among other things.K: Among other things. So, anyway, you don’t need tuberculosis to produce good art.R: Please, in fact, do not try.K: We’re gonna start with this idea that levels of success in your life are dictating whether or not you’re a “real writer.” And there’s this very strong feeling toward: I am a writer, these are the things I will write, I will not do anything else but write this thing. And, if I need to, I will suffer for my art. I don’t care if I’m living in my parents’ garage living off ramen noodles. My art is my art, nothing is going to change that. I will suffer for it. Conversely, you’ve got some people who are trying to write what they wanna write and then also doing other things to supplement their income in the meantime.R: Right.K: And, Rekka, would you say that that is looked down upon in some circles?R: There are definitely circles that feel that people who write for IP which is, you know, a Star Wars book or a Minecraft book or a World of Warcraft book. Folks who write other people’s IP because it pays the bills are ‘selling out’.[07:19]K: Well, I wouldn’t even take it that far. You know, obviously, there is that component of the sell-out, but what about if you’re just picking up freelance jobs writing marketing copy?R: Right, so. Some people would probably say, everything you write that isn’t your greatest work of that time, is a waste of time, or is distracting you from being a better writer. Or something like that. Instead of taking the opportunity to say, pour your heart into everything you do and use the jobs that are not going to reward you artistically to practice something. Just writing all the time is always a good exercise if you wanna be a writer.K: Also, you know what’s nice? Money. R: Money is also pretty good. K: Money’s good to have.R: If you can pay for groceries, you can fuel your mind and body and then you might be a better writer.K: And, again, we did back into this notion of: doing something for the money lessens your artistic integrity. R: Right.K: There’s nothing wrong with doing things for money. Money is not a dirty thing.R: I mean, it’s physically pretty dirty.K: Well, yeah, no and there’s cocaine residue on a lot of it. But money, the concept of money itself—and having it—on its own, it doesn’t corrupt you. Being able to support yourself and live in a lifestyle that you consider comfortable, there’s nothing wrong with that.R: No, that should be what everyone aspires to and is able to reach, just by hard work. But that’s not the world we’re in. You know.K: Yeah, well, that’s a different issue.R: It’s a different episode. The Despair episode.K: But that’s exactly what we’re talking about here. There’s this mental block of: if I’m doing things other than creating my art, and I’m doing it strictly for the sake of the money, am I selling out? No, of course you’re not. A lot of people have jobs that they don’t necessarily love that you’re doing for the money. I mean, do you think I just wake up every day and go, “Boy. I really can’t wait to get on the phone and talk to people about network video equipment.” No!R: I mean, I assumed you do, but…K: Well, actually I do like talking to people, but… I’m doing this because they pay me to do this! And there is definitely this stigma in, I think, especially artistic circles that if you are working in some sort of creative or artistic endeavour, you must be doing it strictly for the love of doing it.R: Right.K: Rekka, you’re a graphic designer. R: Mhmm.K: Do you love everything you do?R: Absolutely not.K: Every project you work on?R: No, no. Not really at all. I mean, it’s not that I don’t love the work. I enjoy doing the process. I take pride in my work, but each individual project is not guaranteed to be something that inspires me and fills me with joy.K: Yeah, and so, why is writing any different? Because you can still take on a writing project that does not necessarily inspire you and fill you with joy, but it’s gonna pay you.R: I mean, you know what doesn’t inspire me and fill me with joy? Is the first draft? Can I just not do that part?K: That’s an excellent point.R: I mean, if I was going to be completely true to my artistic self, I would only revise and edit. And outline. I do like outlining.K, laughing: You do love outlines. But that’s the thing, is that your art is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Now, if you need money, and you have other means of working within your artistic means to make that money, that does not make what you’re doing any less valid.R, outraged: And you know what’s just absurd is that an artist is only supposed to—their work is only supposed to be very, very valuable after they’re dead. Like, what kind of bullshit is that? That the artist is the only one who doesn’t get to profit from their work?K: Well, that’s because at that point they’re not gonna make any more of it.R: Right.K: Some, and I’ll take it an extra step in how it’s even more sick, is because your entire catalogue is now complete. So everyone can evaluate what you will ever make in your life against itself.R: It sounds like you’re defending not paying the artist what their work is actually worth.K: Absolutely not. R: Yeah.K: Just saying, this is why stuff becomes more valuable after people die.R: No, but I’m saying—becomes more valuable after people die because you know they’re not gonna make any more. People wish they’d acted sooner. Wish they’d discovered them sooner, whatever. But why can’t that artist make a living wage of their art and still be an artist?K: Well, I think there are—writers are a little bit unique in this. Because writers, I’d say, are one of the groups of artists that do make their money in their lifetime. I’m sure there’s probably studies and things out there about this, there’s probably always a spike of books being bought after a writer dies.R: Mhm.K: That’s to be expected. The same way that there’s people who watch movies that an actor was in, after that actor dies. Part of it’s a nostalgia factor, part of it’s a “Oh! I’d always wanted to check that person out!” and now they’re dead. I think artists, however, and—this is a little bit all over the place—If you think of the modern artists that we can name right now, off the top of your head. Who can you name right now, off the top of your head? R: Banksy.K: Yeah. That’s exactly what I was gonna say. I think most people will say Banksy.R: Mhm. Because of headlines.K: Because of headlines and because Banksy’s got shtick. The reason, I think, behind a lot of this—and this is something that does not apply to writers—is that artists that create paintings, sculptures, what have you, it’s not easily accessible to the community at large. The art community is pretty exclusive. I would go so far as to say snobbish, in some regards.R: Yeah. But, again, it’s in their best interest to be snobbish. K: Absolutely it is, yep.R: There’s like a false rarity.K: Yeah, and that’s the idea with art is that, in theory, they’re creating one painting and there’s only gonna be one of those ever. Writers, on the other hand, benefit from this great thing where, first of all, their work is incredibly accessible.R: Right.K: Especially in this day and age. And, also, once you make a book, you can give the same piece of art to a bunch of people. And they can all read it together and interpret it how they want to interpret it.R: From across the country, across the world. They do not have to be in one gallery looking at it for the two hours that the gallery is open.K: Yes. So, that also then puts some pressure on the writers, I think. Who are trying to navigate and discover and figure out their own art. I resent the idea that working on projects that are not your magnum opus for money makes you less of a writer, less of an artist.R: Right.K: Because why would it?R: Because if you’re a chef you better not ever eat a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese.K, laughing: I don’t think anyone should eat a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese, ever. But that’s, you know.R: Hey, it’s delicious. I don’t eat it, but that’s not because I don’t like the taste.K: Ah, see, I was never a fan.R: Oh, okay. K: My mom used to try to—I remember even when I was a kid, my mom would be like, “Oh, we’re having—” and my sisters and brother would be so excited. I would be like, “Can I just have a sandwich, please? I don’t think this is good.”R: It’s funny. My mom never bought it, so when I’d go to a friend’s house and they were making it, I would always be like, “Oh, my god this is amazing!”K: So exciting!R: Yeah.K: No, I was never a fan.R: So one of the things I need to point out is that “the dream” of being an author is becoming a full time writer.K: Yes.R: One of the things that’s very difficult to do is be a full time anything, if you’re not being paid for it.K, sighing: Yes.R: Somehow we haven’t worked out how to make that easy.K: Yeah. The thing is that no one is going to pay you enough money to live off of for the rest of your life, to sit and work on writing something.R: Yeah.K: At some point you’ve gotta produce something that can be sold.R: Yes. And the more you can produce that can be sold, the better, for your income stream predictability.K: Now, that said, the thing that you’re producing that can be sold, like my earlier example, might be market copy.R: Yeah.K: Maybe, you know, you do need to spend a lot of time still working on what is truly deep in your artist heart that you want to put out in the world. But, by doing that, you’re supporting yourself. And the people that are paying you to do it are, in a roundabout way, supporting your writing. R: Yeah! It’s pretty funny how that works, right? They are supporting your writing career, even if all they want from you is some marketing text of 300 words or less. If you get paid for that, that supports your writing career. When you can pay for the basic necessities of your life, your stress goes down and it makes it a heck of a lot easier to work on your writing. I know we said the Suffering Artist is an unfair thing, and that’s why. You can’t create if you are spending eighteen hours of every day tearing your hair out and six hours of every day not sleeping and creating fever-driven work. That’s not healthy and it’s not sustainable and it’s not kind that we’ve set up this expectation that you should suffer. So having your basic income needs met, through whatever means.I would happily “become a full time writer” and work six hours every couple of days as a barista or something like that.K: Mhm.R: I mean, to me, that’s actually kind of fun because I love coffee, I love talking to people, and I, you know, worked a similar job in high school. So, to me, that sounds like fun. That’s probably some people’s absolute nightmare and that’s why we have so many people in the world who can handle different jobs. Some people are better at it than others. K: There are people with my job that I think would rather walk into the ocean than do my job. I don’t think my job is that hard or difficult, in terms of my day to day. For some people it would be a living nightmare.R: So for people who can write all day, you probably still can’t write creatively all day. Coming up with your novel. If you spent ten hours at the keyboard every day on your novel, you would burn out. Because your brain just needs to switch tracks sometimes. If you can work from home as a full time writer, I don’t think you’re going to spend all that time working on your novel. It’s not like, “Oh! Now, with a day job, I write two hours a day. But now I’m going to be able to write ten hours a day and it’s going to make me so much more productive!” It may not actually increase your creative writing output by anything.But what you can do to supplant that is to continue to write copy, you can write non-fiction op-eds, you can write things that you can submit to Tor.com, kind of things.K: You can write book reviews!R: Book reviews, exactly! Articles on the industry. Get supported that way.K: Go back and listen to our episode from a few weeks ago about publishing reviews and publishing literature. Publishers Weekly has hundreds of people whose job is just to freelance write book reviews for them.R: Yup.K: If you want to remain in your realm of employ— R: Your wheelhouse.K: Yeah! That’s a great way to do it.R: And that was Episode 29: Industry Reviews. K: This notion that doing anything but working on what it is you want to publish is selling out, I think, is a very damaging mentality to have. I think it, long-term, could end up hurting your career.R: Mhm.K: And it’s certainly not gonna make you any friends.[20:19]R: Yes, and these might lead to new discoveries. The things you learn—if you have to research and write copy for something that you might never have researched—you might end up putting into a book someday. Everything you do is either writing exercise or just brain exercise, so I don’t think we should discount anything. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing, everything feeds your experiences and it comes into your writing later.K: I look back at weird jobs I had in college and I can’t believe the stuff that I picked up and took away from that. That was just to make some extra money while I was a student. Did that mean that I wasn’t very serious about my studies and I was copping out on all this? No, absolutely not! It meant that I was a college student and had no money and occasionally liked to drink beer and therefore needed money to get beer.R: Right.K: I don’t think anyone would ever accuse me of not being serious about becoming a historian because I tutored and worked in the library. And I don’t think that it’s fair, or even rational, to say the same thing about writers.R: Yeah! And your example is perfect because you tutored and worked in the library and these are things, actually, not all that far away from what you were majoring in.K: Yeah!R: I mean, it’s kind of like writing business copy or corporate copy or commercial copy instead of working on your novel.K: So now, that said, there is sort of a flipside to this conversation about artistic integrity and that is once you’ve finished something, now.R: Mhm.K: So you have suffered, you have struggled, you have rolled the boulder up the hill and now someone is interested in publishing this. Maybe you just even hired an editor to take a look at it.R: Mhm.K: And they’ve got some suggestions. R: Right. So this could be, like Kaelyn was saying, an editor, it could be an agent. It could be a beta reader.K: Let’s say you’ve got a completed manuscript, it’s in good enough shape that you’re gonna let other people see it. I’m gonna use the example, here, of an agent or an editor. Let’s say we’re dealing with someone at a professional level, at this point. They say, “Listen. I really like this book. The zombie dinosaurs at the end are a really great twist. Never saw that coming. I really like how the aliens show up at the beginning and they’re the ones who, it turns out, were manipulating the zombie dinosaurs the whole time. Got one little problem here though, at one point you introduce some hobbits. The hobbits just really don’t go with the story. I think you need to take out the hobbits and really shift this to complete sci-fi, rather than making it a little bit of a sci-fi fantasy.” But! If the hobbits are something really important to your story, in your mind, how do you approach this? And if you change that, what does that say about your artistic integrity?R: Right. So this is a absurd example of some of the possibilities—K, contrarily: No, it’s not. I’m gonna go write this book after we’re finished.R: Well, good! I hope you leave the hobbits in.[K laughs]R: But Kaelyn and I were talking about this before we started recording. I gave a more concrete, or more likely, example that she avoided. But I think what she’s doing is making a generalization and we can go into the specifics of where do you make these decisions. You have to be able to draw the line and know where your line is on the various things that you might be asked. K: Now, I’m going to stop Rekka real quick and say, when you draw your line, that means that you’ve gotta be willing and ready to walk away from something.R: Mhm. That might be an agent who was going to offer you a deal, but they just think you are too stubborn.K: That line has to be a real line for you. So, before you are willing to draw it in the sand and stick the stake in the ground, think really long and hard about how worth it that thing is to you.R: The nice thing is, in most cases, you’re gonna be able to have a conversation with the person making the suggestion to see what it is about the hobbits they don’t like. K: Like the big feet. They must be so gross, they don’t wear shoes.R: Yeah! Is it just that this editor apparently has a thing against feet and it’s just going to trip them up, specifically, or is it honestly the fantasy aspect of it. Is there a logical reason? Is there something that actually contradicts something else you’re doing in your book? If every other character in your book is a human, and everything is dealing with the humans and the aliens, and then these dinosaur zombies, maybe the hobbits do feel like they came from another book. And if there’s no logical explanation, someone might be able to debate you into seeing in that way. And saying, “Pull the hobbits out, put ‘em in another book! I don’t have a problem with that. But not this book.”K: Rekka was right, I made kind of an absurdist, general example because it’s just trying to give you a big picture idea. Things you are more likely to encounter, though, are going to be related to the marketability of your book. In that example, I had said, we want to take the fantasy element of this out and move it more towards a strictly sci-fi audience that we think will pick up on this really well. But then more controversial things could come up. What if, instead, the conversation is: this queer character is going to alienate a lot of the target audience.R: There’s an excellent question to respond with that: Do we care about that audience?K: Yes! So this is where I’m saying your line is. Because the thing is that if you’re talking to, for instance, an agent, or an editor at a publishing house for that matter, at the end of the day everyone is trying to make money off of this book.R: Mhm.K: Thankfully, a lot of the publishing market and the people involved have shifted where, not only is this stuff— R: Less controversial than it used to be, yeah.K: Not only is writing things that ten, fifteen years ago would have been a nail in the coffin for a book, it’s celebrated and encouraged now. People are looking for it. But someone might say to you, “Listen. This is a hard military sci-fi book. The people, this social commentary you have in it, that’s not going to appeal to this audience. They just wanna read about spaceships fighting each other near Jupiter. If you wanna sell a lot of this, take that stuff out.”R: Right, so if someone’s looking at your book and they see it as military science fiction, with an unfortunate helping of social commentary, when what you were doing was—Your vision was to have the social commentary as a throughline with the framing of this military science fiction genre, you two may never see eye to eye on this.K: And that may make them not wanna publish your book.R: And that may make you not want to publish with them! I mean, it goes both ways. If someone comes to you and they want to fundamentally change what you’re doing with the book, or in the case of the queer characters, if they want to strip out diversity or identity that you strongly believe in supporting, maybe walking away is the best option. People seem to fall into the trap of this may be the only offer I ever get.K: But, here’s the thing: it might be.R: It might be!K: And that is a very—And this is why I’m saying you need to figure out where your line is because, I won’t sugarcoat it, that could be a very hard decision for you to make.R: But, how do you make that decision? Try to picture yourself in five years, having gone with what the changes they suggested were. How are you going to feel about that?K: By the way, you may be totally fine with those changes. Maybe the agent says, “Listen, I want you to take the social commentary out of this first book. Just get a hard military sci-fi book going, build an audience, and then once you’ve hooked them, let’s absolutely go back and write that book.” Not everything is going to be a clear cut-and-dry, this or nothing. As Rekka said, you know, there’s probably gonna be a conversation here. There’s gonna be a talk about this, but it is something that you’re gonna have to decide. Is it more important to you to write the book that you had set out to write, or is it more important to you to get a book published?R: Right. Keep in mind that in these situations, where this is your first chance, your first debut book we assume. This does set the tone for the rest of your career. Under this pen name. There’s always a chance to debut again with a different pen name in a different genre, or just to start over. But if you do that because you regret the choices you made—Keep that in mind as you make the choices. If the choice isn’t a big deal to you. If, as Kaelyn said, it doesn’t bother you to make the requested changes then that doesn’t even come into play. Clearly, it’s not a thing you’re going to regret. But don’t do it because you feel like you need their approval. K: Now, also though, changing those things based on suggestions also does not make you a sell-out. There is nothing wrong with an agent saying, “Listen, if you can make these small changes,” and you’re on board with them and happy with them, and the agent is saying, “Make these because it will reach a broader audience,” or “It will reach this more focused and fanatical audience and you can sell more books,” that also does not make you a sell-out. There is nothing wrong with making some small adjustments to try to get your book to appeal to a broader audience. Because, again, there is nothing wrong with wanting to try to make money off your writing. R: Right.K: And to capitalize the ways that you’re doing that.R: As long as you’re not compromising your morals.K: Yes! Yeah, of course.R : If you, as Kaelyn said, if you can make these changes and be happy with them. If you make those changes and you hate them forever, that’s not the right change for you to make.K: Can you sleep at night, having made these changes?R: Right, can you sleep at night five years from now?K: Or is there a pit in your stomach every time you think about it?R: Yeah. If this is the sort of thing where it’s that moment you think back on and, no matter how far away from it you get, you’re embarrassed every time or you squirm in discomfort, then keep that in mind. K: One thing I’m gonna bring up from the publishing side of things. As a writer, do not think: “Well, I’ll agree with this now, but when it comes time to actually put this on paper and start getting it published, I’ll just leave it in there and fight with them about it then.” Don’t do that for a couple reasons.One, you’re gonna piss people off. And that’s just not something you wanna do. If you had a conversation with the understanding that you would do things in good faith, hold up to that. Because, conversely, there is probably language in your agreement that—R: That you are going to change those things.K: —that you are going to do this. It is not uncommon for agents and publishing houses to put specific things in contracts that say: blahblahblah, with the understanding that you will do the following. You will take the hobbits out of the book. You will not mention anyone’s feet. The zombie dinosaurs will remain zombies.It is not uncommon to find those kinds of clauses and stipulations and agreements. And the reason that publishing houses do this is because they’re used to dealing with authors and their protectiveness over certain elements of their story. So if you agree to something and say, “Yes, I’m going to make those changes,” guess what? You’ve committed to making those changes.R: Yeah.K: Even if it’s not in writing, you are going to burn a lot of bridges if you don’t.R: If they brought it up with you before they offered you a contract, it’s that important to them.[33:00]K: Yes, yes exactly.R: And—here’s the thing—we’ve been talking about all of this as though there’s a contract right in front of you that, like, you could sign this if you make these changes. You may also get revise and resubmit requests from agents or you may get rejections with some suggestions from agents, if you’re lucky. I mean, you might get form letters, too, but if an agent says, “I’m passing on this, here’s why ___.” Don’t necessarily take that as the next one will take it, if I make this change.K: That’s a very good point, yeah. R: Especially if it’s something that you feel weird about making the change on. Like, if you think making one agent’s request is going to get you the next agent, you are sadly mistaken. Everyone is an individual. We have not joined the Borg hive mind yet. So, therefore, what one agent says does not apply to all agents. Unless they tell you your grammar is bad. Then you can verify that. K: Yeah, that’s probably pretty across the board.R: But, yeah, so if they’re rejecting with some suggestions, that doesn’t mean you’re a shoo-in if you make those changes, for the next person. At best, you wanna evaluate, if you disagree with them, why you disagree, what that person’s perspective on it might have been, and then you can consider: maybe I want to go in and revise that section or revise that element before I submit again. But if you react in compliance with every criticism you get, you’re going to have a very exhausting writing life.K: Yeah, yeah exactly. So artistic integrity, I think, is murky waters for a lot of people because you want to sell your book, you want people to enjoy it. You want to appeal to a broad audience. One of the biggest issues, I think, a lot of books come up against is relatability. At the end of the day, no matter what, relatability is central to appealing to an audience. However, you don’t have to water that down to the point where you end up with a bland character who is a placeholder for anyone to insert themselves into. R: Right.K: That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re not talking about making this essentially a Choose Your Own Adventure starring— R: You.K: —the person reading the book. So it is a hard thing for a lot of people to navigate. But, at the end of the day, you have to go with the choices and decisions that are gonna make you happy and are going to make you satisfied with what you’ve put out into the world.R: Right. And, honestly, there’s a feeling in your gut that you know when you’re not happy with an idea. And there’s a feeling in your gut when you just feel silly that you didn’t see that change, you know? And they’re different. They come from different parts of you. So learn to identify how you take criticism. Maybe go out and find a critique group and just learn to take the hits and understand your reactions to them. That’s a good exercise. I mean, I would hope that someone’s read your work before an agent or an editor and a publisher, so if you haven’t gotten people’s eyes on it and gotten their reactions to it, it might be just a good place to start. To help process your own feelings about what people say. And it’s gonna be different from what the agent or editor says. That’s why we’re saying, “Would you make these changes for an agent or editor?” Because they’re the people who hold the keys to the next step in your career.K: And, again, I would just round out this conversation by reinforcing: it is not a bad idea to sit down and write down, for that matter, what the most important things are to you.R: Yeah.K: Is it most important to get your story, exactly how you have it, out into the world, or do you just first want to get a story out into the world, and get it in front of as many people as possible? Neither of them are bad. You just have to decide what’s important to you.R: Right. Neither is the wrong answer. But what’s your answer?K: Exactly, yeah. And it might be somewhere in between! There’s no—I shouldn’t be presenting these as binary options. But decide what’s important and work from there. R: So, basically, you need to identify your goals and then ask yourself, whenever you’re faced with a decision: which direction, or does this get me to my goal? K: Yep, yep. So that’s artistic integrity, our thoughts on it.R: Artistic Integrity: something that has riled people up for centuries. We covered it in thirty-eight minutes. K: I mean, what can I say. R: The simplest things get people very angry. So, as usual, you can yell at us @wmbcast on Twitter or Instagram—K: Yeah, tell us if we’re violating our artistic integrity just by having this podcast in the first place.R: And you can reach out to us with questions, also, or ideas for future episodes. You can find us at wmbcast.com for our backlist of episodes. This is Episode 33 now, so there’s lots to catch up on if you are just entering the stream now. You can also find us at patreon.com/wmbcast where you can support us for as much as you like, in order to give us a little financial nod of approval. And if that’s too much to ask, which we totally understand, if you could leave us a rating and review—and review!?—on Apple podcasts, to help our audience grow and help us reach more people so we can give them our opinions on artistic integrity.K: Ratings and reviews, they feed the algorithm.R: They do, they do.K: We are all beholden to the algorithm.R: And its appetites! All right, thanks everyone! We’ll talk to you next time.[outro music plays]

Episode 198: Wicked smaht episode. January flops are behind us and we are now looking forward to the future! The Batman, Loki and Captain Marvel 2 all in production in one stage to another. We see the beginning of the end for another superhero series, the Fast and the Furious. The trailer dropped and boy, is it a trailer. We also discuss some upcoming Star Wars series news surrounding Cassian and the future of the Disney + shows. This and more, enjoy! Batman Begun https://twitter.com/mattreevesla/status/1221927006448898049?s=21 Mischief Managed https://www.instagram.com/p/B71b-krgpy7/ Wow! https://comicbook.com/marvel/2020/01/31/loki-cast-owen-wilson-role-marvel-character/ New Year, New Mutants https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a30665134/the-new-mutants-anya-taylor-joy-unique-tone/ Shoppe girl https://fullcirclecinema.com/2020/01/29/taron-egerton-little-shop-of-horrors-remake-exclusive/ 2 Far 2 Fast https://youtu.be/FUK2kdPsBws Marvelous Miss Marvel https://twitter.com/THR/status/1220376445501026304?s=20 The real Spider-Man https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2020/01/spider-man-swings-into-action-above-avengers-campus-at-disney-california-adventure-park/ R You kidding me? https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/1223237550460063745?s=20 Clever boy https://twitter.com/colintrevorrow/status/1223339453994938368?s=20 It does exist! https://twitter.com/colintrevorrow/status/1220607283094224897?s=20 Cassian https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/star-wars-obi-wan-kenobi-disney-plus-premiere-date-1203478761/ Return of the King https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/george-lucas-reportedly-return-star-wars-full-control/ High Rez https://www.starwars.com/news/buckets-list-extra-the-escape-part-2-star-wars-resistance Find us on: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kenobiscorner/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kenobiscorner/ Twitter: @kenobiscorner https://twitter.com/kenobiscorner SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/kenobis-corner Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCM9i2PJJvwyRc7XshD1F_3A iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/kenobis-corner/id1100976667?mt=2 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7zNAt1L2Q3WcC9vrLITdTP?si=-yLJldx1Rv--93M2g9Gzxg

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and oh boy did we really run with it this time!  This week we are bringing you not one, not two, but three episodes and they’re all about those mysterious creatures known Literary Agents.  Who are they?  What do they do?  How do you summon one?  For this episode, we sat down with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald to discuss all this and more.  We loved talking with Caitlin and hope that our discussion might remove a bit of the fear and mystery from proccess of querying agents.  Caitlin is with the Donald Maass Literary Agency and you can (and should!) check her out her and her work at: Website: http://maassagency.com/caitlin-mcdonald/ Twitter: @literallycait - https://twitter.com/literallycait/status/1154917792619139073 Tumbler: https://literallycait.tumblr.com/   And be sure to check out new and upcoming releases from some of her clients!   The Resurrectionist of Caligo: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KDWLM3P The Library of the Unwritten: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608277/the-library-of-the-unwritten-by-a-j-hackwith/9781984806376/ In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast!  We’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any stress relief suggestions for Kaelyn while she deals with the Giants’ will-they-won’t-they Eli Manning and Daniel Jones situation. Seriously guys, she can’t do a whole season of this. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Kaelyn (K): Hey everyone, welcome, another episode of the We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (R): And I'm Rekka and I write Science Fiction and Fantasy as R J Theodore. K: So Week Three, Submissions September. And this week's a doozy. R: We've got a lot of episodes for you this week. K: Yeah, so, what we ended up doing instead of just one episode about agents, we.. you're actually getting three this week. The first one is going to be an interview with an actual literary agent. Caitlin McDonald took some time to talk to us, she was lovely, we had such a great conversation and that's what you're going to be listening to today. Then, we have two more episodes that we're going to be putting out Wednesday and Thursday. R: Yeah, we're just going back to back with this. K: And we talked to six different authors about their process getting an agent... R: They're experience working with them. K: Yeah, cause I think there's... what we're learning, talking to people, there's a lot of mystery around this. R: Yeah. Mmm-hmm. K: Everyone is very uncertain about what agents do, and how you get one. R: And how you're allowed to use them. K: Yes. Yeah, so we had a really great time talking to Caitlin who gave us some really interesting insight and... Yeah, Week Three: Agents. We… Three episodes, because it turns out there's a lot to say about that. R: You know, this is a big part of it for a lot of people. K: Yeah, it's the check mark. It's a huge check mark for a lot of people in this process is: “Get agent." So take a listen, we had a great time talking to Caitlin and hopefully you enjoy the episode. [music] 02:01  Caitlin (C): I’m Caitlin McDonald. I'm a literary agent at Donald Maass literary agency. I represent primarily Science Fiction and Fantasy for adult and young adult, as well as a little bit of nonfiction. I've been in the business for... I think, eight or nine years no? I lost track, but around there. R: So over eight or nine years you've seen it change a little bit, with going, you know, so heavy on digital all of a sudden, and the opportunities for print on demand, opening up smaller publishers… C: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, at my first agency I was involved in a lot of reworking backlist contracts that had no language for digital to kind of, you know, deal with that change that was really becoming a huge deal. That was 2011, so... there was a lot. It was, obviously 2008 was kind of when digital really hit the market—  K: Yeah. R: Right. C: —started to become... um, but like, 2011 was when people really said, "Okay, this isn't going away. This is serious." [Kaelyn and Caitlin talking over each other and laughing.] K: Oh, people will read things off screens! They don't always need the physical book in their hand. C: And it's not going to kill paper! K: No, no not it's not. C: It's a supplement. K: Yeah. So, Caitlin, could you maybe tell us a little about what a literary agent does? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there about, like, "Oh, as soon as I get an agent, that's it, then my book's gonna get signed," or, "I'm never gonna do this unless I get a literary agent." Um, I think a lot of authors who are looking for agents maybe don't always know what the agent will do for them. What their job is, after you sign with them. C: Sure, so there are some things that kind of differ from agent to agent, particularly, there's also differences between if you have an agent who focuses on Non Fiction or, versus Fiction. So, it's always worth having a conversation with an agent and asking this question of them directly if they're offering representation because their answer may vary from what I'm about to describe here. But, at the, you know, the basic level, typically, in addition to most of us these days do editorial. So, I will do at least two rounds on a manuscript before I send it out on submission even after I've acquired it, there's always gonna be at least one round of line editing but usually even before that, I'm doing at least one round of structural edits, areas where I'm saying, "I love this character but strengthen their character arc, you know, make their motivations clearer.” “X Y Z isn't working, let's find a way to fix that.” So, I always make sure that I'm doing editorial before we go out on submission. Obviously, submission is the Big Thing™, that's what everyone gets an agent for, but even after we have that deal in place for you, part of our job is to negotiate it so that it's the best deal it could be, both in terms of the offers but also the contract language. So sometimes there are elements that, you know, authors don't necessarily know or that don't come up in the offer point, so it's not a deal point of how much money you're getting, what sub-rights you're contracting out, but really nitty gritty language in the contract that might be boilerplate between the agency and the publishing house but maybe the publisher recently revised their standard contract, so we have to make sure that the language is still what we agreed to. You know, really little things, we're here to make sure that everything is the best it could possibly be for our authors. And then, also staying on top of everything afterwards as well. Os I don't just well, “Here's your editor, the book deal is signed, it's their problem." I'm still there to make sure that you know, everyone is on target for deadline, that the publisher is delivering on publicity and marketing that they agreed to. That, if there are any concerns coming up, a copyeditor who's making changes that the author doesn't like—I've had that problem before. Anything that, you know, any concerns my author has, any discrepancies, any time issues, all of that, I'm here to kind of be a mediator between my author and the publisher. If an author has a problem with anything, if they have a question they're afraid to ask the editor directly, I'm here to kind of be the difficult person so that the author can maintain their good relationship with the editor. The author should never have to ask a hard question or demand something that is going to seem pushy, because that's my job. I'm the one who gets to be pushy and maybe be the person that the publisher goes, "Ugh, them again." But they'll get to have a good relationship with their author. K: I always really enjoy going through the agent because authors, you know, don't wanna be pushy and they're a little, "Oh, I don't want to step on anyone's toes here," and with the agent it's like, "Okay, let's just figure this out." C: Exactly. We also know what's standard. What's a reasonable request where we can come in and say, "Okay, the publisher's not going to be able to do that but here's a compromise that we can suggest." So we can help mediate a lot of those elements where an author may want something but not know whether it's standard, whether it's something that they should ask for or can ask for, not knowing what is normal. K: Yeah I mean for a lot of authors this is kinda their first foray into publishing and it's overwhelming and it's things that they think they should know already and they really don't. And there's no reason that they should. So, yeah, having and agent, someone that's in your court and able to help you navigate that is so valuable. A lot of people who're going to be listening to this probably do not have an agent already, and they want one. When you're evaluating potential clients to take on. What are you looking for? Obviously a good book is the first major component. But beyond that, is there anything you kind of take into consideration when making decisions on these things? C: Certainly there's an element of understanding how to pitch, clear market identity, knowing that they clearly understand and read within their genre. So, they may... I don't expect them to, you know, know every, have read every book and be as on top of the industry and what's coming out in the next, you know, year, as someone who's in the industry, but I do expect that they read within their genre, that they have comp titles that are relevant, that they show an understanding of what readers are looking for in the sense that they themselves are a reader. So sometimes I'll see queries that come in and describe.. some.. they say, "Oh, this pitch is something that's never been done before," and clearly it has. Then I'm going, "Okay. You definitely don't read this genre at all, and this is probably not a good fit." You need to really make sure you're reading in your genre and demonstrate some understanding of it, because otherwise we will be able to tell. Uh, the other thing that is really helpful is a little bit of that personalization when you're pitching to an agent can just be really helpful. It's not necessary, per se, but I do find it incredibly helpful to show that you know, you've done a little bit of research and it gets me more excited about a project if you know things that I'm specifically looking for. Not just my genre but specific details of things I'm interested in things that I'm looking for that you can cite and say, "Yes, my work has this and I know you want that." Then that can really get me excited about it before I even get to the sample pages and that's a really good way of grabbing an agent's attention. K: You hear that, listeners? Slapping the same thing together and sending it out over and over again is not the best way to get someone's attention, actually doing some research and putting some time into —because that's something we talk about a lot, is this is not an easy process, so if it seems easy to you you're probably not doing it the right way.  R: So one place that folks can find your particular manuscript interests would be on your submissions page? Your submissions guidelines, generally. Um, lightly browse (do not stalk) your twitter, and if the agent is listed on Manuscript Wishlist, which is a website that like, puts together a lot of agents. They can fill out profiles and keep it updated themselves of what they're looking for. That's a couple of places where you can find out, is this agent interested in something I'm writing, and also a lot of agents will have the headers on their social media include the books they've worked on. So if you look at that header photo, it's like a real quick double-check. Is anything.. do I write like anything on here. One, if you haven't read anything on there, stop what you're doing if you're really interested in that agent, and read something that they've worked on. But, it's a quick check, just like, "None of this is anything like what I write, maybe I should look for a different agent, and not waste their time." K: Yeah. Along those lines, one of the questions we had sent along was, "Agents, when they open for queries, this has to do with the alignment of the stars, correct?" C: Absolutely. K: "And the tidal forces of the moon and..." R: "Magic. Lots of magic." K: "And various other natural phenomenon." But when those things happen, what makes you decide like, "Okay, I'm ready to be open for queries again. I'm ready to take on new clients"?
C: I man, I'm sure it's different for every agent. For me, specifically, it really has to do with how much time that I have. How I'm doing with current client manuscripts. Whether I've caught up on all of the queries already in my inbox. That's often something I have to make a really concentrated push, after I close to queries, to then get through all of the ones that are still need to be responded to. Then give myself a little bit of time to get through some manuscripts. I wish I could say that I only open to queries when I've responded to all of the fulls that I've already requested, but that's not the case because then I'd probably never open to queries." K: as an acquisitions editor, I can say the same thing, that I always have a few that I'm still working through but it's like, "But I also need more for the future, so we're gonna open for submissions again." It's hard to balance that. C: Yeah, yeah it is and the work-life balance as well, there's so many elements. Because I think the thing to keep in mind is that most agents aren't reading queries during work hours. They're reading them during their own personal time. Our work hours are dedicated to our clients, editing manuscripts, possibly reading fulls, but for the most part, it is working on our clients and editing the existing manuscripts, going out on submission, making sure everything is up to date. All of the work that is involved with being an agent for our existing clients is pretty much a full time job and finding new clients to add to our list is an important part of our job but it also usually happens outside of the parameters of our forty-fifty hour work week whatever you .. however you define that. I'm often sending queries at ten o'clock at night and that's just how it is. When you have the time for it. K; Yeah. Same thing. I get responses from people that are like, "Uh, were you up this late?" I'm like, "I'm up that late every night. That's when I get my work done!" We talked about this a little you know, when you said what does a literary agent do, but: relationships with authors. Obviously, like, one of your big things is, you're in that person's court. You are their advocate, you are there, making sure that they get the best possible publishing deal, making sure everyone's happy, handling difficult situations for them. But beyond that, your relationship with a writer, what is that like? What do they expect from you? Obviously, it will change depending on how things are happening in their career, but what's your relationship like leading up to a release and then, for example, afterwards? C: This is such a good question because it' actually really important for an author to know what they need about themselves before, if they can. Which is hard to know if you've never had an agent, but if you can try to figure out 'what's important to me?' beforehand, then having that conversation helps you know whether the agent is going to be a good fit for you. Because it really varies for all of my clients. Some of them, you know, I'm in almost constant touch with. Some of them I only head from them when they have a manuscript ready and they send it and it's already revised and they feel like they just... "here it is!" and others are going, "Here are my next... here are one-sentence pitches for my next eight ideas, which one should I do?" "Here's a partial draft." so it really really varies. I've got some authors where I'm working with them on all sorts of different levels of early stages of manuscripts and others that don't come to me until they've got something nearly complete, or at least a full first draft, or a full synopsis, you know, it really really varies. and then the level of contact that they want also varies from author to author there are some who I'm here as you know an emotional support as well as all of the other tasks that my job entails. And then others who are very happy to sort of sit back and only reach out when they actually have a specific publishing question or concern that needs to be addresses. So it really really varies, wildly and it's important to kind of know "how much do I want my agent to be in touch?""Am I more comfortable with email of phone?" "Am I going to be someone who wants to be able to text my agent?" These are the kind of questions that it helps to be able to look a little bit inside and say, "this is.. these are the kinds of communication limits that I want with an agent," and to talk to them about it beforehand and make sure that that's what you're going to be getting from the agent you're looking for. K: Well now, you, I'm sure, in a lot of situations, have to set some boundaries. C: That is true, um, but it.. there often, I find, it's something that is done not necessarily explicitly. I kind of set what I'm comfortable with and if that means I'm not responding to emails that aren't super important on the weekend, then that's just something isn't necessarily discussed beforehand, per se? I know this sounds a little bit contradictory to what I just said, but like R: No but by your responses, you're setting their expectations. C: Exactly. Exactly. K: I know some people that, when they first signed with their agent they're like, "I have this question," and I'm like, "Well go ask your agent then." C: Yes. Exactly. K: "That's what they're there for." "I don't wanna bother them." "That.. I.. you are not bothering them. Other.. you know, you're not calling them at one in the morning having a breakdown about something." That's bothering. Don't do that. C:  Yes, exactly. We're here as a resource so you should always feel comfortable reaching out to your agent about anything that is publishing and work related. That, at least, you should always feel comfortable doing. They might set the parameters of how to do that. Is it okay to just call them ay any time, or do they prefer email? Do they give you their number so you can text them? Depends. I mean, I know many agents prefer not to do that which I think is absolutely a good idea but I'm sure that there are some that are perfectly comfortable with it. So you know, having that conversation beforehand and finding what their preferred system is so that you know whether it's compatible with your preferred system, that's really the key. K: Gotcha. So, we had kind of also talked about this briefly, but one of the other questions we wanted to talk about is, and I'm gonna kinda combine two things here: what catches your eye in query letters, in authors that are querying you, and at the same time, what are some red flags? C: So, what catches my eye, I think'd be a little like what I talked about before, something that really speaks to me personally and actually addresses things that I have specifically said that I'm looking for. Anything that is particularly really unique, like actually finds a way to give me an unexpected twist within the pitch itself. I'm also.. I do really appreciate comp titles that kind of combine, you know, taking two very very disparate comps and combining them to say "here are two things that are nothing alike but if you combined them, that's my book." Then you can get a sense of, "Oh, here is something really new and unique." I once got a query that said it's Jane Austin's Emma meets Dexter. And then.. K: Oh! C: Yeah, and then the plots came out, like, Yes, that makes sense! But getting that, those kind of comp titles, I went, "That is very interesting and I want to learn more." So, you know, it's.. comp titles don't have to be like that but they can be a very interesting way to condense a unique aspect of your book into one creative, short pithy pitch. In terms of red flags, I think it's often a, like I said before, very clear not understanding of their genre or the type of book I'm looking for if they very clearly have misunderstood, not just the genre per se, but something say, comes in and is pretty heavily misogynistic in a certain way or something that just, like, if you check my social media, I'm very clearly not interested in works that are, you know, a certain way, even if they are science fiction or fantasy. And then, also I would say another huge red flag is authors who feel the need to attack other authors or existing books for a genre in their query letter. K: Oh really?
C: that is never good. don't be that person. K: No. C: Yes, I've definitely those books that come in say, "Well, this book was terrible," or "Nothing in YA is good anymore," or, "Twilight was terrible!" K: Oh my god. C: Don't be that person. That's... you know, don't attack other authors in your query. It's not a good look. K: I'm making this face right now because I have read so many query letters and I have never seen that.  C: Really? K: That's like. now see, watch.. cause we're open for submissions now so I'm gonna get like ten of those. Now that I've said that but like, oh my god, wow. I thought I'd seen everything. That's a new one. Okay. R: Actually that comes up on Twitter a lot. I see a lot of agents saying "Please don't do this. You know, don't insult J K Rowling because you think that will make your book sound more intelligent. It doesn't." K: It doesn't and I mean, you know. Come on, Harry Potter. R:  Regardless of whether you like it, it was very successful. An agent wouldn't mind a Harry Potter. C: And it sets yu up as a person who is going to be not someone who plays ball with the industry if you're going to be someone like that then that doesn't send a good message about the type of person you're going to be in terms of how you interact with other authors and publishers. and the fact is other authors: those are your peers, those are your support network. you need other authors because their success is your success. And their blurbs are how you get found and you all have to support each other and so if you're not going to be interested in doing that then you're probably not going to succeed in the book industry. K: I've done a couple things over the years and a question I get a lot is well you guys are like, you know a small independent press, and "yes, we are, it's a lot of fun," "So what about competition from this what about..." It's not like... it's not competition. People, I think. It's not the same as cheering for a sports team. You don't love one team and therefor their failure is other teams' success. People who love and read these genres of books are just going to keep looking for more things to read. So everyone succeeding you know especially in similar veins that you're working in, that's great for you as an author because that means more people might come across your book as a result of that. C: Exactly. K: But it is very interesting when you look at these and you're evaluating if you think you can work with this person. Can I help no only them but like, I need to be successful here. Your author's success is the agent's success but you still have to work within the industry and you still have to be able to put together and sell a book at the end of the day and if you're presenting yourself in a way that's gonna make your agent think "I'm not sure I can do this with this person" that's gonna drive them away.  R: We talk a lot about querying an agent for the first time, creating a new relationship with them, but frequently, especially in genre fiction, book deals are for more than one book. So once you have entered into like the second in a series or the second book that's been optioned as part of the same contract, does your relationship change with the author at all? C: Um, yes, so it's very much, I think, it depends from agent to agent but for me, I'm very much willing to work with authors as early as they have pitch ideas. So they will come to me with, you know, ideas, with early drafts, and I'll be definitely working on things much earlier than I would be than a query. So, obviously, when you query your manuscript should be as close to final as you can possibly make it. You should have already had some beta readers, you should have already done editing, and so at that point the hope is that it will only take a few more rounds with an agent before it's ready to go on submission. Obviously for your second or third book, and books after that, that's necessarily not the case. So yes, I am seeing much earlier drafts. I have worked on books that are completely rewritten from scratch multiple times before going to the publisher ad also part of it is deciding what the next book should be sometimes. So I've had clients where we look at their first book and where it fit in the market place, and their other book ideas, some of which might be very different from the first book, and others might be in between and we say, "okay, how do you want to be positioned in the marketplace as your career? Do you want to be a YA author or do you want to be an adult author? Do you want to be a horror author or do you want to be a fantasy author? If you want to be both that's fine, but if you really feel strongly about one of these things, and you just happen to have one book idea that falls outside that parameter, then maybe we don't so that as the second book, maybe that's the third or fourth. Maybe that's an outlier book." So, figuring out how the author wants to be positioned in the marketplace and making sure that we are following a trajectory that will achieve that is part of what I help them do. K: That's something that I think a lot of people don't realize a lot of agents do is, basically helping the author come up with an identity. And how they're gonna fit into the marketplace, what they want to be known for. Yeah that's really interesting to think about as well. Anything that you wish people knew about literary agents? Any giant misconceptions you frequently come across? You know, obviously the stuff about the bloodletting is all ~true, but the rest of it? C: I think that the big thing I would  just... I really wish to share with people is that I promise we're not scary. It's... We're just people like you. We just love books, like you. I.. when I got to conferences there are so many people who are so scared and I just want to hug them and say, "No, it's okay, I promise.. there's nothing to be scared of." K: Wait, quick qualification. If you run into Caitlin at a conference do not walk up to her and hug her immediately. Ask first. C: Thank you. Fair. Thank you. Yeah, but I also there's just a I feel like there's a I don't wanna say a culture of self-rejection but there is.. I see a lot of self-rejection— K: Oh, yeah, absolutely. C: —on the internet and on social media and people will ask me, "Can I query you?" and I'm going, "Why are you asking me? Just do it. Just do it!" You know, alway always give it a shot and you know, we're just here because we love books and we want to help you succeed. Like we want authors to succeed. We want books to succeed. We're not out here saying no to books because we're up in a castle laughing at all of you. We really really want these books to succeed. We want to see more books that we love. And most of the time, when we reject something, it's with a heavy heart. It's, "I love this pitch but the writing just wasn't quite there yet, but man, I hope they come back to me with another project in a couple of years when they've really honed their skill and improved their writing." You know that's really where we're coming from is, "Not this one, but keep working at it. We're waiting for you to come back next time and really nail it." K: to everyone I hope hearing that is encouraging. I'm encouraged just listening to it and I'm not even querying an agent. Thank you so much for talking to us. This was really a lot of fun. I really enjoyed this conversation. C: Of course, well thank you for having me, it's been great.  K: So, where can people find you on the socials? C: I'm on most social media @literallycait that's c-a-i-t short for Caitlin, and on the Donald Maass website which is MaassAgency.com. R: Alright so is there anything else that you wanna tease for people, books coming out or anything like that? C: Sure I've got a couple really exciting books coming out over the next month or two. We've got The Resurrectionist of Caligo by Wendy Trimboli and Alicia Zaloga, which is very very exciting. Kind of dark Victorian-esque fantasy, which would be great for anyone who's a fan of the podcast Sawbones. If you're into that you'll definitely like this book. And I've also got The Library of the Unwritten, by A J Hackwith, which is K: Yes C: Fabulous Hell based fntasy about books that are unwritten escaping their library and going on walkabout and the librarion having to chase them down it's very fun and if you love books it really explores the concepts of narrative and character and what it means to have those elements and give them agency so it's a really it's a love letter to the concept of writing. It's fabulous. K: That one's on my list, I'm very excited for that one. C: Oh good. K: Okay, so. The take away here: Agents; they're people just like the rest of us. R: At least one is. K: One of them anyway. The rest are in the castle. R: Okay, thank you so much Caitlin, we really appreciate your time. C: Thank you. 31:34 [Music]
R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general remember you can find us on twitter @WMBcast, same for instagram, or WMBcast.com. If you find value in the content we provide, we would really appreciate your support at patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand, and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course you can always retweet our episodes on twitter.  Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.

On this week’s Restless Wrap, host Rachel Goodman discusses the soap The Young and the Restless. Join her as she talks about the second week of JT’s murder trial, the breakup of Ray and Mia, and Lola’s forced proposal. Want to talk Y&R? You can find the conversation on facebook @restlesswrap! @rachegoodman @yr_insider #yr #theyoungandtherestless #soaps Follow Genoa City’s elite upper class in the YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS AFTER SHOW. We’ll break down the family ties, power structures, and ever-changing relationships episode by episode. Tune in here for reviews, recaps and in-depth discussions of the hit soap with super fan hosts who know what they are talking about The Newmans and the Abbotts represent Genoa City's upper class. Powerful businessman Victor Newman runs Newman Enterprises and has never stopped loving his former flame and wife, Nikki Reed Newman. Jack Abbott and his sister, Ashley, are closely connected with the Newman family, both personally and professionally. The battle supreme in Genoa City has been going on for years between Katherine Chancellor and Jill Foster Abbott. The Winters family, Williams family and recent newcomers round out the socially and ethnically diverse town. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

On this week’s Restless Wrap, host Rachel Goodman discusses the soap The Young and the Restless. Join her as she talks about the first part of JT’s murder trial, Lola’s comatose state, and Mia’s fake pregnancy news. Want to talk Y&R? You can find the conversation on facebook @restlesswrap! @rachegoodman @yr_insider #yr #theyoungandtherestless #soaps Follow Genoa City’s elite upper class in the YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS AFTER SHOW. We’ll break down the family ties, power structures, and ever-changing relationships episode by episode. Tune in here for reviews, recaps and in-depth discussions of the hit soap with super fan hosts who know what they are talking about The Newmans and the Abbotts represent Genoa City's upper class. Powerful businessman Victor Newman runs Newman Enterprises and has never stopped loving his former flame and wife, Nikki Reed Newman. Jack Abbott and his sister, Ashley, are closely connected with the Newman family, both personally and professionally. The battle supreme in Genoa City has been going on for years between Katherine Chancellor and Jill Foster Abbott. The Winters family, Williams family and recent newcomers round out the socially and ethnically diverse town. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Rachel Mielke believes that through empowering others, we can change the world. The fact that she is named one of the Top 100 Female Entrepreneurs in Canada is just icing on the already sparkly cake. Rachel is the Founder and CEO of Hillberg & Berk, and has grown the company culture to be a reflection of the jewelry they make - high value, beautiful and existing to help others find their voice. She puts extreme thought and care into all aspects of her company, whether it's building the right team, finding her own mentors or being one for the next generation, or designing a custom made piece for Queen Elizabeth, an Olympic athlete, or the every day hard working woman. What You'll Hear in This Episode: The brilliant marketing move of “Share Your Sparkle” that Hillberg & Berk does to empower and give gratitude to others. How the magic of Hillberg & Berk was born while Rachel made jewelry at her kitchen table. Rachel's passion for creating beautiful, high quality and long lasting jewelry and how she mixes it both in the tangible and intangible to empower women across the globe. How the models of Hillberg & Berk aren't just models, they are role models. The real unbelievable behind the scenes story of Rachel's appearance on “Dragon's Den” that hardly anyone knows about, and the impact Brett Wilson has instilled in her as a partner. A few of the reasons why having a variety of mentors are fundamental at every level of the entrepreneurial journey. What shifted in both growth and opportunities for Rachel when Hillberg & Berk decided to pursue opening up retail locations. What key qualities Rachel sees in businesses that make it through difficult and challenging times. The critical need to understand where your skills and passions lie, and to lean into the areas where you can add value to the company as you scale up throughout your journey. The magical and life-changing opportunity to design and create a piece of jewelry that was presented (and worn six times!) Queen Elizabeth. The special relationship that Hillberg & Berk has with the Canadian Olympic and Paralympic committees over the last two Olympic games. Why Rachel felt it was important to share her own story on postpartum anxiety and depression. A few of Rachel's best advice for female entrepreneurs: lean in to risk, don't be afraid to dream big, be different, recalibrate your priorities daily, and find others around you to help support your goals. Quotes: (When I put on the jewelry) “I felt inspired. I felt empowered. And I wanted to give that to other women.” - R “You have to have a lot of mentors. You won't learn everything you need from just one person.”  - R “In business, the only constant is that things are always going to change.” -R “There was a lot of competencies in the company, for building out a retail strategy and for executing it in a unique and different way, and people really reacted to that.” - R “I feel it's important to share honestly and openly about struggles that we go through.” - R “As an entrepreneur, one of the hardest things is to say “no” and stay focused.” - R Mentioned: Stollery Women's Network Hillberg & Berk Dragon's Den Brett Wilson The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don't Work and What to Do About It by Michael Gerber Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II wears Hillberg & Berk brooch Sparkle Collection Journey Into the Inner Circle: Carrie Doll @CarrieADoll - Twitter @carriedollconsulting - Instagram Carrie Doll - Facebook Please rate, review and follow the podcast! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to Lean Agile Management Podcast - a place where we talk with the thought leaders and top-tier management consultants about Lean Agile transformation, answer manager’s questions and discuss the hottest topics in management & productivity. Welcome to the LAMP! Are you tired of putting out the fires of your team issues just to see them cycle back? If so, you might be extinguishing the symptoms instead of eliminating the root cause of your problems. Today we will shine the light on building and sustaining the culture of continuous improvement and how this key concept of Lean philosophy can help you solve the team management issues. We are joined today by a professional Lean coach, developer of Kanban foundation courses, and a certified service management consultant, Robert Falkowitz. Today he is tuning in from Switzerland to talk with us about continuous improvement in the context of team management. Skip to Comments > Video Transcript: D: Hi Robert, welcome to the show! R: Hi Dima, thanks for inviting me. How are you today? D: I’m doing great, how are you? R: Good, very well. D: I’m glad you could make it, thanks for tuning in today. R: It’s my pleasure. D: So I know you have really serious experience helping teams understand and implement Lean and Kanban, you’ve worked with countless teams in different industries but why did you decide to coach Lean in the first place? Could we start there? R: Before I got involved in Lean and Kanban in a very serious way, I did a lot of work in Service Management. What I’ve found and what most people in the field find is that it’s very difficult to justify the effort that you put into the improving the way in which you manage services. And I found that the reason for this was that most organizations have problems in the way in which they deliver and manage services; not because of the Service Management aspect but because of something much more fundamental: how their teams are organized and how they manage their work, how they manage the flow of work or don’t manage the flow of work, for that matter. R: And so, I said, in order to be able to help my customers better, it was important to help them improve where you could make most noticeable improvements and then afterward we can come back and fine-tune it with Service Management improvements. And that’s how I got started with Lean and Kanban. D: Would you say there are some general patterns or issues in the way we think about team management that the teams you’ve been working with could share? R: You know, there are a lot of differences from one sector to another sector, especially in terms of regulatory requirements. There will be differences in terms of the size of the organization, whether they are located at one site or multiple sites. There are differences in terms of the background, the culture of the organization and how it works. So every case is somewhat different and you have to be agile in adapting to services that you provide in order to help organizations do a better job at doing their work. D: Would you say that there are some biggest ultimate roadblocks or productivity myths that specifically prevent teams from becoming a high performing team? Well, what I’ve found is when organizations try to improve the way in which they work by layering on more controls, what they’re doing is fact, very frequently, exactly the opposite of what they intend to do. Now, it is difficult because people have grown up in believing that the best way to improve the way in which they work is to manage better, to check up more, to control more, to have better reports and to be able to act better on those reports in order to make decisions. And very frequently this is exactly the opposite of what the organizations need to do. So you’ve got this big change in the mentality of people, trying to get them to think in terms of doing less in order to improve the way in which they perform,

The other day, I finally had a chance to sit down with Tony Workman, owner of the in Parkersburg, WV for our very first on-site interview. Listen in!! This is a transcript of the conversation, cleaned up for your reading pleasure! Rem: We’re here today with Tony Workman, owner and operator of the Classic Plastics Toy Store located in downtown Parkersburg, WV and progenitor of the Classic Plastics Toy and Comic Expo which is quickly approaching on March 4th and 5th at the Parkersburg Art Center. Tony, how are you doing? Tony: Pretty good. R: You ready for take two? T: Definitely! Both: *shared laughter* R: So I may or may not have screwed up the last recording, and I really won't know until I get it into the computer to find out. So we're going to do it again and I'm going to make Tony suffer through it because he's awesome like that! Tony, what got you started in selling toys? T: Pretty much my love of them. I've always had toys and I never really grew out of it, so I wanted to keep that going and so I turned a hobby into a business. R; You started off by having a shop in a local flea market, what drove you to make the jump to having a retail space? T: It came down to availability — with the flea market being [open] three days and me growing out of the space I was in. I kept getting a bigger and bigger space, and I just figured it was time to get a building. R: Gotchya. What kind of toys and other items do you carry? T: There is a little bit of everything. We started at the flea market with vintage used toys that people would bring in to us, and then when I moved here, I started getting into new toys from NECA and Funko — stuff like that. R: So do you have any primo stuff for the fine dining toy collector? T: Every now and then we'll get stuff from collectors that we'll bring in, like packages Ninja Turtles from the 80's or stuff from NECA that is really highly detailed or articulated. Stuff that might be pricier, but worth the money. R: I notice you also have vintage functional arcade machines. What inspired the decision to include those in your space? T: I always loved going to the arcade when I was a kid. There was a movie theater that my parents would take my brothers and I to; and before every movie, we would sit there and play arcade games until it was time to go in and watch it. I've watched them all shut down all over the place, and I just wanted to try and bring that back. R: Gotchya. Do you host any special extended hour events like arcade or Collectible Card Game tournaments? T: We do with the arcade games. We have free arcade day once a month that we try to do toward the end of the month. It's what it sounds like: just come in and play free arcades all day. () R: Awesome! So, as I said, you are the progenitor of the Classic Plastics Toy and Comic Expo coming up again March 4th and 5th. This will be the fourth year you’ve hosted the CPT&CE, the third year it will be taking place at the Parkersburg Art Center. What sparked the truly daunting task of organizing an expo? T: My buddy, Todd Wines works for The Red Cross and they were looking for a fundraiser that would be in different age groups with different types of people that they don't normally get any kind of support from, so he came to me and asked "Do you want to do a toy and comics expo?" – with him being a huge comic nerd - and of course, I said yes. *laughter* R: Is it just you pulling the strings, or do you have a crew helping to get all the gears moving? T: For the most part, it's just me. Todd does help when he can, but with his job being in disaster relief, it's just a matter of if there's going to be a flood or something. So if that happens, he really has to focus on that which leaves me to be the only one. But I do have employees that I can pay to help me out as well. R: This year you’re featuring nearly 100 vendors and guests. How well has the attendance grown over the past four years? T: The first year was in a church on South Side [Parkersburg], and it had 300 people. Last year - our 3rd year - we had 1200 people. We're hoping to get over 2000 people with it being the first two-day show, but it is just a kind of wait-and-see. R: And as you said, this is the first multi-day event. Why was the decision made to extend the expo? T: Last year there were so many people. The Art Center is a pretty decent-sized building, but there were so many people on the floor that it was hard to get through the aisles and see all the inventory and enjoy the show as much as people wanted. So we thought spreading it out over the two days would give people the opportunity to choose when and what day they wanted to come. R: Awesome! Who can we expect to see this year, then? T: This year we have Steve Cardenas, the second red ranger from Power Rangers — Rocky, the red ranger if anyone watches the show. Along with Tim Clark, an 80's toy designer. He did stuff like Boglins and Sectaurs. He worked a little bit on Fraggle Rock. And then the local legend, Jordan Patton is back again this year from SyFy's Face Off and does the show Deadnecks. R: We have the expo, and then we have some external events that are happening as well. What are some of the events that are happening at the expo and outside of it that will really make for the first weekend of March to be a truly grand adventure for anyone coming to downtown Parkersburg? T: Starting with the outside stuff first: It's being done by Downtown PKB again. They did an event last year that they got really good reception from - Savor Saturday - that they're going to be doing again this year. It's going to include 12 different restaurants [in the downtown area] that you can walk around and get dollar samples from. So if you haven't eaten at any of the downtown restaurants, it gives you a really good chance to try out some of what's on their menu. There's also going to be this guy, - I don't even know his name - he came into the store one time and said "You let me into the show one day for free, and I'll go around all the PokeStops downtown and put lures on them." So that is going to be at noon — the same time as people are walking around for Savory Saturday. You can take advantage of a whole bunch of lures and sample a whole bunch of restaurants down here. Inside, the Vienna Library is doing events like Lego Building and Story Time on Sunday. J&M Bookstore on South Side is doing board games and tabletop events both Saturday and Sunday; along with Rare Drops from Huntington doing video game tournaments. Both of these will be in the basement of the Art Center. Then there will be a cosplay contest and I'm probably forgetting something else. *laughter* R: *laughter* It is hard to keep track of all of it, isn't it? T: It is! R: So finally, do you have anything you’d like to add that I may have forgotten to cover? T: I can't remember if it was mentioned, but proceeds to the show go towards Downtown PKB and the Arts Center — they'll be split in half. I do not get any profit from this. This is something that is done for the community and as a promotion for my store. In the past, it was done for the Red Cross, but we changed to Downtown PKB this year. So if you guys are really wanting to support your local area and your local businesses, coming to the expo is going to be really important. Rem: Awesome! You can join us in the fun at the Classic Plastics Toy & Comic Expo, March 4th and 5th at the Parkersburg Art Center, located at 725 Market Street in Parkersburg West Virginia. Admission is $5 per person each day, or $8 for a two-day pass. Children 10 and under are free with paid adult admission. All proceeds go to the and . More information about the expo can be found at , link in the notes; or you can search on Facebook for real-time updates on the event. Don’t forget to come down to the as well – , located at 406 Market Street in Parkersburg, West Virginia – and give Tony all the love and support you can! Thanks again, Tony, for having me down and wasting time with me! I really appreciate it! Tony: Thanks for having me! Links: https://www.classicplasticstoystore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/ClassicPlasticsToyandComicExpo/ https://www.facebook.com/ClassicPlasticsToyStore/ https://www.facebook.com/downtownpkb/ https://www.facebook.com/parkersburgartcenter/ https://www.facebook.com/events/614611755413106/

感谢热心听友“大声Helen”帮忙听写本篇文稿!Ryan (R): A Beijing couple has decided to break tradition and used the subway for their wedding party’s transportation. Crazy or cool? What’s going on? Bob (B): Well, I mean, Niu Hongling and I have beenfighting over this story since... but is actually does calm down to whether this is a wedding for human beings or for cats.R: How does it come down to that Bob?Niu Honglin (N): I have nothing to do with it.B: Because I think it would totally be different if this was cats? Anyway it was a story. OK. So hiring a limousine.. It’s a headache. The whole wedding thing is a headache, isn’t it? For couples who want to get married. So much they have to think about getting from A to B, moving the whole wedding party around that kind of things. It’s a huge expense. And in these days, when we’ve got to think about the environment and you know the kind of things that... What would we rather spend our money on? Do we rather spend it on luxury limousines? Or do we want to maybe spend it on things for the new house or something like that? Then you think it yourself, I KNOW! Let’s have the wedding in the subway. Good idea or bad idea, I don’t know.N: Well, I have to justify for this specific couple. Well, in their case, they didn’t actually have the wedding in the subway. They are just using subway as a transportation choice. So they decided to go from home to the hotel using the subway, but wearing traditional Chinese wedding customs. And they walked into the subway station with their bridesmaid and best-man. And actually it’s very sweet, cuz the bridegroom checked the regulation beforehand to make sure that they didn’t violate any rules. And they set out at 8am Saturday to avoid disturbing traffic peak hours, keeping the ride low key without any special music or arrangements during the trip. So I believe it’s a cute and sweet idea and they didn’t disturb anyone. They kind of spread their joy and they have made their contribution to promoting a green idea of living.R: I want to talk about how Bob wants to spread joy with the cat in the subway as he was referencing... I do believe? I don’t know. But you know, looking at this, I mean I don’t think we can comfortably say nobody was a little annoyed. Someone is gonna have to take the cab, not the cab, the subway. Because the cabs are maybe a little more expensive if you are cab hailing, maybe taking the subway on a Saturday. So in which case, if you’re taking the subway in the morning, for whatever reason, on a Saturday someone is, at 8am, then do you think this would annoy you? I seem to be under the impression anyone waking up at 8am on a Saturday is grouchy. Right, I would be, I would be grouchy and then I see these people having a great time, getting married... And I am single, I’m doing something at 8am in the morning. B: Oh, he’s bitter.R: And I’m like rub it in my face, could you just take your taxi with your tinted windows, So I don’t even have to see it. Bob.B: Just calm down. R: You’re gonna on the side with me Bob?B: No, not in the slightest. So do you think it’s a good idea or not a good idea before I go onto cats?R: Oh, God.N: I think it’s a good idea for them. Because they are not taking a limo. They are taking the subway. And I feel like they are not really disturbing anyone. And also a lot of netizens have responded, saying that renting a limo is not that important and their way of doing this is environmental-friendly. And it’s possibly faster concerning Beijing’s traffic conditions. So I’m agree with them doing it.B: Do you know, I think it depends on which subway line that this was going to happen on. If it’s subway Line1, then I reckon that there’s a lot of grumpy people. R: Yeah, me.B: You, for example. Sitting there, being grumpy and saying go get married somewhere else.R: Bring cats.B: But on some lines, I reckoned, on Line6. This would be fine. Everything is a bit more chilled on Line6.R: I don’t take Line6 often, so I can’t say. But definitely on Line1...B: And we’re talking about Beijing Subway here?R: Yes, definitely on Line1. I would be a little bit grumpy. Niu Honglin?N: Yeah, for me, as long as you are happily married, you will spend your day with your loved ones, friends and relatives. You can do whatever you want as long as you are not bothering anyone, you have my bless.B: But use cats.R: How did cats ever get into this? You got to explain yourself here.B: Cuz everybody loves cats.R: That’s not true. Some people love dogs.B: Or dogs. Okay, I think more people like cats. But if you’re going to do something which is really sort of... When it comes to society like getting in people’s way. Then you just would think, okay I gotta do something to make people feel happy, in which case, take a cat with you. And then, everybody would be happy. No, you didn’t get away with more. I have done it myself.R: See, this is where it starts. This is what I’m worried about guys. And I want your opinions. I starts with weddings. But then it ends up being with Bob with cats on the subway. And who knows how many cats Bob will bring with him on the subway?B: I’m not a crazy cat-man. I’m not gonna bring you like 10 cats or something like that.N: Well, let me bring the subject a little more to human wedding instead of cat wedding. For those of you who really want some creative ideas. You can also take some water ways, you can also take a bike and also a horse might be a nice choice. For those of you who want to have some adventure, you can get married on an airlift. And also you can rent a party bus to transport all your guests, relatives and friends. So whatever you want to do, just be happy and creative.R: Guys, gotta know, quick closing statements, cute or annoying? What do you think Bob?B: I think, annoying on Line1 and probably quite entertaining on Line5.R: Oh my God.N: Cute and happy and full of pink bubbles.B: And cats.R: Or maybe cats. That could definitely just be you, Bob, on this one.

If you are a new listener to this award-winning podcast, welcome!With over 40 years of teaching between us, we'll help you improve your English and take it to the next level. In this episode: How to avoid personal questions   Más podcasts para mejorar tu ingles en: http://www.inglespodcast.com/  More podcasts to improve your English at: http://www.inglespodcast.com/  Congratulations to Beatriz Asensi Gallardo on passing the FCE exam! You are an FCE girl now! Listener Feedback: RafaelReza, tú lo haces bastante bien lo de pronunciar español, sin embargo a Craig si, que le cuesta un poco más, y no acabo de entenderlo porque a veces he oído los años que lleva Craig en España, ¡y son muchos! Creo que alguna vez habéis dicho que lleváis desde 1998....a veces pienso en ello y me imagino viviendo en Inglaterra tantos años y (creo) que hablaría inglés como un nativo....(bueno, tampoco estoy muy seguro de ello) os pido perdón, porque la mayoría de las veces os escribo en español, pero, aunque os lo entiendo todo....no soy capaz de "colocar este rollo" (get this out/across) en inglés....Bueno, espero que Craig no se moleste con mi comentario y si fuera así, le pido disculpas por adelantado...Un saludo afectuoso, Rafael Hi Craig and Reza,How are you doing? I'm Pepe Calvo, a 51 years old (51-year-old) self-taught English student. I started to learn English on my own in my mid-forties and thanks to the Internet and the help from podcasts like yours I think I'm getting it. From the beginning I also started to practise with English natives, who are retired and live nearby, and it was tough but now I'm really proud to be able to follow a conversation more or less fluently. I don't spend any time studying, nor do I do exercises and things like that, I think the key is to listen to English - the more you can, the better, and in addition, speak, read, write and watch (documentaries are my favourites) in English as much as you can. I call it "my little linguistic immersion" and I think it works, doesn't it?Nowadays, I am listening to your podcasts but I'm not up to date with them yet and I'm wondering if you’ve already got the ‘dulce de leche’ recipe, have you? If not, it is the least I can do for you to express my gratitude. It is really easy, my mom used to make it when I was a kid, here you are: https://cookpad.com/es/recetas/129294-dulce-de-leche-con-leche-condensada-en-olla-rapida Thank you very, very much for your generosity sharing your work for free, it is a great help for people like me, I really appreciate it! I live in Tortosa, not too far from you, if there is something more I can do for you, you only have to ask. Listen to you soon! Compound adjectives The journey lasts 3 hours - It's a three-hour journeyIt's a 10 kilometre trip - The trip is 10 kilometresHow to avoid personal questions How to avoid personal questions What kind of questions, and in what kind of situations, could be difficult, inappropriate and/or embarrassing? Filling in a formapplying for a service or product (online or face to face)meeting someone for the first time and making small talkjob interviews (to deflect - desviar) Are the following expressions “Asking a personal question”(Q) or “Responding to a personal question”(R)? Why do you ask? (R)That’s got nothing to do with you. (R)I know this is a bit personal, but... (Q)Can I ask you a personal question? (Q)That’s rather a personal question. (R)I hope you don’t mind me asking, but…(Q)I’m afraid that’s none of your business. (R)I’d rather not answer that (if you don’t mind). (R)I know this is a bit nosey, but…(Q) (nosey = entrometido/a, indiscreto/a, 'meter las narices')Mind your own business! (R) SHOWS ANNOYANCEI don’t mean to pry, but….(Q) - (to pry - entrometerse)I’m sorry to say I’m not prepared to answer that. (R)No comment. (R)I don’t want/wish to comment on that. (R) If you don’t mind m, I’d like to ask....(Q) Would it bother you if I asked…(Q) I’ll understand if you don’t want/wish to answer, but…(Q) I’d rather you asked me something else. (R) Forgive me for asking, but…(Q) If it’s not too personal,...(Q) Let’s change the topic, (shall we?) (R) You’ve got some nerve asking that! (R) SHOWS ANNOYANCE That’s for me to know (and you to find out - SHOWS PLAYFULNESS) (R) Practice: I know this is a bit nosey, but how much money do you earn? - Let's change the topic, shall we?Forgive me for asking, but are you married? - I'd rather not answer that if you don't mind.I don't mean to pry, but how much do you weigh? - Why do you ask? Perhaps we should move on to another topic.I hope you don't mind me asking, but how much rent do you pay for your flat? - Why do you ask?I hope you don't mind me asking, but have you ever taken drugs? - No comment!Forgive me for asking, but how much did you pay for that shirt? - Let's change the topic.How old are you? - Let's change the topic, shall we?I know this is a bit nosey, but who did you vote for in the last election? - I'd rather not answer that, if you don't mind.Have you got a boy/girlfriend?Do you fancy anybody? / Do you have a crush on anybody?I know this is a bit personal, but how many people have you slept with? - I'd rather not answer that, if you don't mind.Did you sleep with her/him last night? - Mind your own business!!How do you make your humous so tasty? What's your secret recipe/ingredient? I don't want to pry, but what size trousers do you take? What size are you? (to have a crush on someone - encapricharse con alguien) Thank you to Mamen for sending audio feedback on our sponsor, italki. Discussion: Are there any other questions that you don’t like answering? vague - vago/a, impreciso/a ...and now it's your turn to practise your English. We want you to tell us about a time when you were asked a personal question. Send us a voice message and tell us what you think. speakpipe.com/inglespodcast Send us an email with a comment or question to craig@inglespodcast.com or belfastreza@gmail.com. On next week's episode: The Past Perfect tense (simple and continuous) with special guest (and published author) Mike Hardinge   Más podcasts para mejorar tu ingles en: http://www.inglespodcast.com/  More podcasts to improve your English at: http://www.inglespodcast.com/  The music in this podcast is by Pitx. The track is called 'See You Later'