Podcasts about MCP

In questa puntata parlo di come usare AI, Figma e MCP per trasformare un mockup in una vera interfaccia funzionante. Partiamo dal design, passiamo alla generazione del codice con Copilot o Claude Code e arriviamo fino alla verifica nel browser con Playwright e Chrome DevTools. L'obiettivo non è solo generare una UI, ma creare un vero ciclo di implementazione, controllo e correzione.#dotnet #blazor #githubcopilot #claudecode #figma #mcp #playwright #chromedevtools #ai #artificialintelligence #codingagent #frontend #webdevelopment #aspnetcore #developer #podcast #dotnetinpillole

What if Amazon sellers could turn Helium 10 data into instant AI reports? Learn about MCP workflows for keyword research, PPC, competitor analysis, listings, and faster decisions. Amazon sellers have access to enormous amounts of valuable data, but turning that information into clear decisions can take hours of filtering, exporting, and spreadsheet work. In this episode, Carrie Miller, Bradley Sutton, Jason McLellan, and Vincent Lan demonstrate how the new Helium 10 MCP connects Amazon data with AI platforms such as Claude and ChatGPT, allowing sellers to analyze their businesses through simple, conversational prompts.   The episode explores practical workflows for Amazon competitor research, keyword ranking, PPC optimization, product research, and listing improvement. Sellers can compare a competitor's strongest and weakest sales months, identify the keyword-ranking changes that may have influenced performance, uncover valuable keywords they are not tracking, and connect changes in page traffic with historical keyword movement. The Helium 10 MCP can also combine information from Cerebro, Black Box, Search Query Performance, Profits, Keyword Tracker, Brand Analytics, and Helium 10 Ads into one customized report.   Carrie shares how her listing analysis skill compares a product with its competitors, identifies keyword gaps, evaluates listing quality, and prioritizes search terms that may be close enough to page one for a strategic PPC push. Jason reveals how his agency combines Product Opportunity Explorer data with Helium 10 insights to create detailed market intelligence reports, while Vincent explains how he centralizes weekly performance data to understand how changes to pricing, images, rankings, and advertising affect the entire business.   The real power of the Helium 10 MCP is not simply having more data—it is being able to ask better questions and receive an actionable plan in minutes. Sellers who learn how to build effective prompts and reusable AI skills can replace hours of repetitive analysis with faster, smarter decisions. The tools are evolving quickly, but the sellers who begin experimenting now may gain an important advantage in how they research, optimize, and grow their Amazon businesses.   In episode 542 of the AM/PM Podcast, Bradley, Carrie, and Vincent discuss: 00:00 - Introduction 01:35 - What Is The Helium 10 MCP? 03:55 - Connecting Keyword Rankings With Sales Changes 07:24 - Building A Market Intelligence Report With Jason McClellan 12:18 - Finding Competitors' Most Consistent Clicked Keywords 13:58 - Connecting Helium 10 MCP To Claude And ChatGPT 15:56 - Carrie's Favorite MCP Keyword Opportunity Strategy 17:15 - Analyzing Competitor BSR And Historical Rankings 20:46 - Finding Valuable Keywords You Are Not Tracking 23:06 - MCP Usage Limits And Upcoming Write Capabilities 27:47 - Connecting Page Sessions With Keyword Rank Changes 31:05 - Using MCP To Improve PPC Campaign Structure 35:23 - Tracking Branded Search Volume And Product Opportunities 38:39 - Carrie's Listing And Competitor Analysis Skill 42:50 - Combining Helium 10 Tools Into One Weekly Report 45:07 - How To Reduce MCP Calls And Use It Efficiently 47:19 - Finding Competitor Keywords Worth A PPC Push 49:46 - Free Helium 10 MCP Prompts And Skills

In this episode of Business Brain, we dig into a question that’ll save you money and focus: before you buy yet another AI tool, ask the tools you already have if they can do the job. We walk through how connecting your existing stack—using AI as the glue—often beats chasing hundreds of shiny single-purpose apps down the rabbit hole. Shannon shares how linking Claude to his Kajabi community surfaced which members had gone quiet so he could re-engage them, and we talk through the real litmus test for every new tool: what’s the most important thing you can do right now to actually move revenue? Because productivity that doesn’t move the bottom line is just busywork in disguise. Then we get into MCP connectors—the model context protocol that lets your AI talk directly to your internal systems—and why building one is a game changer if you’re forever fielding “can you look this up for me” emails. Dave breaks down the read-only connector he built for BackBeat’s ad system, how it gets him out of the way of his own process, and even how AI spotted a hidden pattern in his health data that no human would’ve caught. Connect your tools, pick the right model for the job, and stop paying for glue you don’t need—that’s how we keep living the Charmed Life. We’ll see you Friday. 00:00:00 Business Brain – The Entrepreneurs' Podcast #775 for Casual FridAI, July 31, 2026 July 31st: National Talk In An Elevator Day 00:02:58 Don't look for another tool, connect the tools you have SaaS-pocalypse 00:10:16 SPONSOR: Shopify: Own your customer relationships. Own your revenue. Start with a free trial at Shopify.com/BusinessBrain. 00:11:39 I built an MCP Connector 00:17:05 Business Brain 775 Outtro This Episode's Big Takeway: Use AI to connect your business tools together Check out Business Brain Blueprints Tell Your Friends! Business Blueprints Review Business Brain Subscribe to the show feedback@businessbrain.show Call/Text: (567) 274-6977 X/Twitter: @ShannonJean & @DaveHamilton, & @BizBrainShow LinkedIn: Shannon Jean, Dave Hamilton, & Business Brain Facebook: Dave Hamilton, Shannon Jean, & Business Brain The post FridAI: You Don’t Need Another Tool – Business Brain 775 appeared first on Business Brain - The Entrepreneurs' Podcast.

Si parla di beta di iOS e nuovo Siri, di DMA e App Store alternativi, di energia e automazioni con Home Assistant e MCP, del database dispositivi della Open Home Foundation, di controllo locale dei dispositivi Samsung e dei video della settimana.

Hey, it's Alex (yeah, I'm finally back from my vacation!) What a freaking week to come back to! Just after our last episode was published, Anthropic releases Opus 5, Jensen joins X and drops the “Open Weights & AI Leadership” open letter, Kimi K3 is released the following Monday beating expectations, and then the AI hack (OpenAI model breaking sandbox and infiltrating HuggingFace) is on everyone's mind, another Open Letter, this time from over 1K employees inside the frontier AI companies all talk about pacing the pace of frontier AI development. We played with Opus 5 and Kimi K3, and had the great pleasure to chat with friends of the pod Elie Bakouch (Prime Intellect) and Philip Kiely (BaseTen) about this important open weights release, then covered our general thoughts on Opus 5, and made order of all the different open letters that came out this week. Finally we chatted with Max from Pangram about the next version of AI writing detection (their biggest yet) and finished with Zuckerbergs (also on X! what's going on with everyone joining X) op-ed on the vision of personal superintelligence for everyone. Let's dive into this (as always, all the links and sources at the end, please don't forget to sub to our podcast on your favorite podcast app!) Open Weights AIKimi K3 the king of open weights - 2.8T chonker MoE near frontier model (X, HF, Blog, Tech report)This has got to be the biggest news of this week, and maybe the open weights AI news since GLM 5.2. MoonShot came back with Kimi K3, and we haven't seen any models quite this large in the open. Even Grok 4.5 is around 1.5T, this model is nearly 2x the size. Coming in at close to 3T parameters (and 2.5terabytes of weights at MXFP4 format), this model comes in very close to frontier! This was such an important release that I invited 2 friends of the pod, Elie Bakouch (prev HuggingFace, now Prime Intellect) and Philip Kiely (Author of Inference Engineering book, BaseTen) to dive deep into what makes this special! Elie's take, from reading the tech report, there's no single secret sauce, it's a combination of already available in the open techniques. Like KDA (Kimi Delta Attention) that has been out for a while, attention residuals, NVIDIA's latent MoEs. The highlight for Elie was the scaling work they did that reported a 2.5x scaling efficiency over Kimi K2.5 (2.5 performance at the same compute)! They also skipped RoPE entirely in favor of NoPE (the report calls it No Positional Encoding) for long context.Serving 1.4TB on eight GB300s (Baseten blog)Philip's team at Baseten was a day-zero provider (we're still working on bringing this model to CW Inference, stay tuned!) so I invited him to tell us behind the scenes of hosting this beast. Philip said that just loading the weights takes about 1.5TB!! of VRAM, and that's before the KV cache allocation + 1M token windows, so they're serving it on 8 GB300s where NVL72 . Baseten worked with the vLLM and SGLang teams on kernels and he also said they contributed patches back upstream! The model was trained with MXFP4, which, unlike Nvidia's own NVFP4 is a more standard format per Philip. I enjoyed his deep dive analysis into the differences, but because of this and because they trained the model with quantization awareness, it's “only” 1.5TB vs the would-be 5-6 TB if that this model in FP16 would demand. One of the more favorite nerd snipes moments, Philip pointed out that his colleague discovered that with over 99% of the usage being cached (think harnesses that send millions of the same cached tokens back and forth), tokenization actually starts to become a bottleneck. So they released a custom “basetenkenizer” that reduces the latency to serve the first token significantly! Great job!The harness in question is very importantOne important callout with 2 evidence pieces - the way you inference this model really matters. Kimi trained K3 with preserving thinking history, so when your harness uses it, it must send back the full thinking and tool use into the API to get the best next response. If your harness strips that out, you're not getting the most intelligence out of Kimi (shoutout to Niels from HF team for pointing this out). Additionally, the Composio folks, tested K3 on 3 harnesses, Kimi Code, Hermes and Claude Code. The difference in outcome was negligible, but the different in cost and number of tokens is definitely surprising! Claude Code (as a harness only) took 9x more Kimi tokens to get the same responses! This is also why Kimi Vendor Verified exists, their own held back benchmark of how well model providers serve Kimi across different quantization, tokenizer and KV cache settings. Benchmarks and the license! Ok let's start with the ugly... this isn't MIT, not remotely. This model is suspiciously served by all providers with exactly the same price (check OpenRouter) and requires inference companies to sign a contract with Kimi (I've no internal knowledge of this except that CW folks are working on it). Not something I particularly like, but hey... we're still advancing the frontier here! Speaking of frontier, this model approaches the frontier very closely. On DeepSWE, K3 sits just behind Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol at 67%, beating GPT-5.5 & Opus 4.8. On Terminal-Bench 2.1 it takes second place behind GPT 5.6 Sol! It's 4th overall on Agentic Arena, with frontend design being genuinely good across the board - 1st on Design Arena

What prevents a successful AI experiment from becoming a dependable production system that delivers measurable business value? In this episode of Tech Talks Daily, I speak with Ed Macosky, Chief Product and Technology Officer at Boomi, about AI pilot purgatory, integration, governance, model selection, token costs, and the technical skills businesses may need as adoption grows. Ed leads Boomi's product and engineering teams while also using AI tools inside his own organization. That gives him a view from both sides: creating technology for enterprise customers and applying it within active product development workflows. He believes many AI pilots begin with the wrong question. Teams become interested in the latest model or feature before defining the business problem they want to solve. The experiment may work during a demonstration, then fail when it encounters real data, access controls, security policies, and production systems. Placing company information inside a data lake and adding a language model does not automatically create a business application. The system must access current data reliably, respect employee permissions, connect with existing applications, and operate within governance rules that security teams can approve. Ed recommends beginning with a defined business opportunity and establishing the access required to support it. Existing APIs can already provide authentication, permissions, and governance. MCP can offer another route into enterprise systems, but those connections still require security, monitoring, and management. Team alignment also matters. An AI center may be racing to test models while an integration center concentrates on a different set of priorities. When those groups fail to coordinate, the pilot lacks the connectivity and automation required to become part of a production workflow. The discussion then turns toward fragmentation. Every technology wave produces new vendors, frameworks, and specialist tools. Early experimentation benefits from variety, but mature companies can eventually find themselves maintaining a complicated collection of products held together with custom code and, occasionally, the digital equivalent of duct tape. Ed does not recommend placing every function with one provider. He does argue for enough consolidation and abstraction to prevent experimentation from creating years of technology debt. Governance and observability should also work horizontally across different environments, including platforms such as SAP, Salesforce, and several AI model providers. That becomes increasingly important as businesses introduce autonomous agents. Leaders need to know which agents exist, what systems they can access, what actions they can take, and how each decision is recorded. AI gateways and agent control towers can provide a wider view across otherwise separate technology environments. Ed also introduces the idea of the frontier engineer. A prompt engineer concentrates on communicating effectively with a model. A frontier engineer understands how the model works, including its logic, mathematics, algorithms, and suitability for different workloads. He does not believe every company needs a large team of these specialists. However, he argues that enterprises need at least one person capable of assessing vendor claims and deciding whether a frontier model, specialist model, or open weight model fits a particular workload. Cost creates another reason to examine model selection. Sending every employee request or agent task to the most capable frontier model can become expensive. Some repeatable workloads may run on open weight models inside the company's cloud or hardware environment, giving finance teams greater cost certainty. Boomi is developing Boomi Prompt to route requests according to their complexity and requirements. A simple factual request might go directly to an API. A forecasting task may use a smaller model. A difficult analytical request could be sent to a frontier model. Ed uses the weather as a helpful example. Retrieving next Tuesday's forecast does not require a language model when a public weather API can return the answer directly. Asking a model to perform every form of automation wastes tokens, computing power, energy, and money. The episode closes with practical advice for CIOs. Avoid starting with a broad objective such as agentifying the entire business. Choose a department, identify a small number of tasks, define the expected return, and work backward. Once the team proves value and understands the operating requirements, it can repeat the process elsewhere. Could intelligent routing, stronger integration, and clearer business outcomes finally move enterprise AI beyond pilot purgatory? Listen to the episode and share your thoughts with me.

Send us Fan Mail“Secure AI agents” is a comforting phrase, and it's also one of the most abused. We sit down with Zach Korman, a builder and security researcher known for stress-testing AI agent frameworks, to talk about what actually breaks when you connect LLM agents to tools, plugins, skills marketplaces, and live production systems. The punchline is not a single bug or a clever jailbreak, it's a bigger design problem: agents can be influenced by untrusted content while holding real authority through API keys, SaaS access, and automation hooks.We dig into why “enterprise-grade security” claims often collapse under basic testing, how disclosure changes when a product launches with bold marketing, and why skills are a supply chain risk hiding in plain sight. Zack explains how malicious skills can smuggle commands in places humans never read, how automated scanners can be bypassed, and why “safe OpenClaw” may only be achievable by stripping away the very access that makes agents useful. We also cover MCP security concerns, including dynamic tool definitions, model capability mismatches, and the uncomfortable reality that some protocols effectively enable instruction injection by design.Then we get practical: how to vet tools if you're not an InfoSec specialist, how to reduce third-party exposure, and what foundations matter most inside a company (visibility, least privilege, authorization, and governance). If your team is moving from chatbots to agentic automation, this conversation helps you spot security theater before it ships to customers. Subscribe, share this with someone deploying agents at work, and leave a review with the AI security question you want us to tackle next.Connect with our guest:https://x.com/ZackKormanCheck out the Monthly Cloud Networking Newshttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1fkBWCGwXDUX9OfZ9_MvSVup8tJJzJeqrauaE6VPT2b0/Visit our website and subscribe: https://www.cables2clouds.com/Follow us on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/cables2clouds.comFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@cables2clouds/Follow us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cables2cloudsMerch Store: https://store.cables2clouds.com/Join the Discord Study group: https://artofneteng.com/iaatj

Sponsored by Blocks: Save at least 20% on your AWS costs with AI-powered optimization and enterprise discounts. Get your free Cloud Check at https://blocks.cloud/alphalist?utm_source=alphalist&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=blocks-podcast-2026 Aike Hillbrands co-founded and killed two companies before Kombo, now a Y Combinator-backed HR integration platform with $10M+ ARR and a $25M Series A. Along the way, his team built something almost by accident: a company-wide AI brain made of a GitHub repo, a Cursor agent, and a Slack channel, built in two hours, that replaced how the whole company gets answers. In this episode, Aike explains why files and grep beat MCP tools and vector search for agent reliability, walks through Simon Willison's "lethal trifecta" of AI security risks and how a public Slack channel acts as a guardrail against it, and makes the case for why AI won't commoditize enterprise HR integrations anytime soon, despite that being Kombo's own bet. Topics covered: - How Kombo went from Notion AI to a Git-based company brain - Why files and grep beat MCP tools and vector search for agent reliability - The architecture: per-customer summary files, cross-linked support tickets, BigQuery CLI, Slack integration - Simon Willison's "lethal trifecta" and practical mitigations - Why a public Slack channel works as a security guardrail - The buy-vs-build question for internal AI tooling - Why enterprise HR API integrations resist commoditization by AI

This week Jason Howell and Jeff Jarvis try to untangle a news cycle where nearly every AI story fed into the next one. Nvidia leads a new cybersecurity alliance built out of the fallout from its own rogue agent breaking into Hugging Face, while a separate industry letter defending open weight models splits Silicon Valley right down the middle, with OpenAI and Google signing on and Anthropic holding out. Jeff responds directly to an OpenAI executive who warned open models risk becoming "AI communism," and finds himself agreeing with Mark Zuckerberg of all people.Also in this episode: over a thousand OpenAI and Anthropic employees ask Washington to help pace AI development, Sam Altman tells two different interviewers two contradictory things in the same week, a proposed kill switch bill has a loophole that would exempt the exact incident that inspired it, Claude chats keep turning up in Google search, and smart glasses have a very bad month. New episodes every Wednesday at aiinside.show. Note: Time codes subject to change depending on dynamic ad insertion by the distributor. CHAPTERS: 0:00 - Start 0:07:52 - "Nvidia Leads Defense of Open-Source AI With New Cybersecurity Initiative - WSJ" 0:13:36 - "NVIDIA Launches 'Open Secure AI Alliance' Initiative To Improve Cyber Defense" 0:17:08 - More Than 1,100 AI Workers Call for US to Pace Tech Growth 0:17:44 - Adam Thierer response 0:18:59 - Sam Altman is ready to decelerate 0:22:55 - AI Communism - Jeff Jarvis 0:27:33 - The AI Future Is for Everyone 0:35:40 - An AI kill switch solves for the wrong problem 0:46:13 - "People Found Crypto Wallet Data in Claude Chats Indexed by Google" 0:52:04 - Artificial Intelligence and the Rise of Independent Work 0:59:53 - Amazon Phases Out Some AI Models, Advances Others 1:03:26 - MCP just got its biggest update ever — here's what changes for AI agents 1:05:08 - Meta launches new Facebook Verified badge for actual, real humans 1:06:32 - Meta glasses banned by Comic-Con promoter after 'secret filming' Hosts: Jason Howell and Jeff Jarvis Download and subscribe to AI Inside in audio and video: https://aiinside.show/  Support the podcast on Patreon for special perks: https://www.patreon.com/aiinsideshow. You'll get ad-free episodes, members-only Discord, T-shirts and stickers you love, and get ad-free audio and video feeds, a members-only Discord, and exclusive content. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when a marketing leader goes all in on AI, not just for himself, but for his entire team? Ronan Bray, Head of Marketing & Growth at Cloud Assess, joins the podcast to unpack exactly that. From a two week Christmas break spent teaching himself to build apps, to rolling out a fully connected go to market platform that pulls live data from HubSpot, Google Search Console, and Notion, Ronan shares the real story of AI adoption inside a B2B marketing team, mess, momentum, and all. This episode is a practical playbook for any marketing leader wondering how to move a team from AI curiosity to AI capability. Ronan gets specific about what worked (starting small with personal projects), what didn't (announcing a team wide AI mandate with almost no context), and where he still won't let AI near the steering wheel, like paid ad spend and image or video creation. Guest Introduction Ronan Bray is Head of Marketing & Growth at Cloud Assess, where he leads a global marketing team driving pipeline with over 85 percent of ARR from inbound. Over 16 years he has scaled B2B marketing for ASX listed companies and his own startups (three reaching acquisition or buyout), building on experience at HubSpot and Drift. Key Topics Ronan's personal path into AI, from everyday ChatGPT use to picking Claude as the team's core tool to avoid spreading focus too thinHow a two week Christmas break and a personal "vibe coding" project (a lawn care scheduler built in Lovable) became the spark for wider team adoptionThe simple three question framework Ronan uses with his team: where's your time going, what's repetitive, and what's the ideal end stateBuilding a go to market hub in Lovable that connects HubSpot, Google Search Console and Firecrawl to surface content gaps and sales insights automaticallyWhy Ronan's team keeps a human in the loop on all content, even though AI can draft it, because audiences and algorithms can both tell when something is fully AI generatedThe security guardrails Cloud Assess put in place around domain locking and vulnerability scanning when building internally with LovableWhy Ronan won't hand over paid ad spend decisions to AI, even with tools connected to Google AdsWhat's next for Ronan's team: using AI for image and video generation to communicate fast moving product releases to sales and customers Resources & Links Companies & Tools Cloud Assess: Ronan's company, an AI powered training and assessment platform, referenced throughout as the environment for his AI rolloutLovable: the AI app builder Ronan and his team use to build internal tools, including their go to market hubClaude: the AI assistant Ronan's team standardised on for everyday tasks and custom team projectsHubSpot: the CRM feeding deal and pipeline data into the go to market hubFirecrawl: the web scraping tool connected to their platform to analyse blog and competitor contentChatGPT: the tool Ronan first used for personal AI adoption before switching to ClaudeNotion: used by Cloud Assess's product team to track features, later integrated into the go to market hubHiggsfield: an AI image and video tool Ronan tested via MCP, which he found fell short for a recent website rebuild Contact & Credits Host: Shahin Hoda Guest: Ronan Bray Produced by: Shahin Hoda and Alexander Hipwell Edited by: Alexander Hipwell & Dave Somido Music by: Breakmaster Cylinder Podcast Co-ordinator: Jonah Igsie APAC's B2B Growth Podcast is Presented by xGrowth

People are calling the new ChatGPT Voice their “AGI moment.”

Runlayer is suing Rippling after Rippling evaluated the startup's MCP gateway product and then opted to build one itself. Also, Ozlo unveiled Sleepbuds 2, an updated version of its original product that tackles key areas of improvement, including battery life, connectivity, and sound quality.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hoje o papo é sobre novos protocolos agênticos! Neste episódio, conversamos sobre como o Model Context Protocol (MCP) busca padronizar a integração entre agentes e ferramentas, além das diferenças e complementaridades entre MCPs, skills e APIs tradicionais. Vem ver quem participou desse papo: Paulo Silveira, o host que ainda acha automação uma bagunça Vinny Neves, cohost, dev e professor na Alura Mikaeri Ohana, Staff Developer Relations Engineer no Google Sulamita Dantas, Database Engineer e professora na FIAP Marco Antonio da Silva, Diretor de Engenharia do Conta Simples  Links:  Anthropic apresenta o MCP em 2024 MCP MCP Apps Registro oficial de servidores MCP Vinny: MCP tá onde o npm tava em 2014. e isso não é elogio Conta Simples + MCP MCP Tools Agent Gateway ADK: Agent Development Kit A2A: Agent-to-Agent UCP: Universal Commerce Protocol AP2: Agent Payments Protocol Google: Agent Identity Agent Skills Repositório oficial de Agent Skills da Anthropic  Plugins no Antigravity skills.sh, o npm de skills Criador de skills da Anthropic Roadmap do MCP Boas práticas de segurança para MCP Toda revolução tecnológica começa com quem antecipa o futuro e transforma ideias em soluções de alto impacto. Conheça os cursos da Alura + FIAP Skills & Go: Agentic Engineering, Building AI Products, e AI Data Strategy. Saiba mais sobre o Skills & Go. Vá para o Vale do Silício com Paulo Silveira, Marcell Almeida, Fabrício Carraro e Marcus Mendes na “Imersão IA Sob Controle e Alura no Vale do Silício“! Vagas limitadas, corra para reservar a sua. TechGuide.sh, um mapeamento das principais tecnologias demandadas pelo mercado para diferentes carreiras, com nossas sugestões e opiniões. #7DaysOfCode: Coloque em prática os seus conhecimentos de programação em desafios diários e gratuitos. Acesse https://7daysofcode.io/ Produção e conteúdo: Alura Cursos de Tecnologia – https://www.alura.com.br Edição e sonorização: Rede Gigahertz de Podcasts

Most advertisers focus on people who are ready to buy today. But what happens when that audience runs out?  In this episode, I chat with Ed Hackney and Trinity Lawry from Pearl Diver about how to find high-intent audiences, why balancing every stage of the marketing funnel matters, and how AI is making audience discovery easier for media buyers. This podcast was made possible thanks to the incredible support from Pearl Diver. In This Episode Why focusing only on conversions can quickly exhaust your audience. How behavioral data helps identify where consumers are in their buying journey. How Pearl Diver's AI tool, Reality Clusters, helps uncover new audience opportunities using simple prompts. Why combining third-party data with your DSP's native audiences can improve performance. Why asking questions about your data and being transparent with your partners leads to better campaign results. This is like fishing in the same pond every day. If you never let new fish grow or explore new waters, eventually you'll stop catching anything. Remember: The best programmatic strategies balance today's performance with tomorrow's growth. About Us: We help historically excluded individuals break into programmatic media buying and land jobs they love. Through our Reach and Frequency® program, coaching, and community, we make learning programmatic clear, practical, and welcoming. Join once, stay learning forever. Past workshops, paid gems, and every new recording + resource added as we go. This library isn't a one-time thing, it's the full vault plus all future trainings, recordings, and guides. Access it here: https://www.heleneparker.com/library

This week we welcome back Senior Technical Evangelist Mike Nelson and introduce podcast newcomer and Product Manager Ameerul Shah. Our conversation centers on the latest developments with Fusion and how it is redefining and automating data management. We explore how the Everpure is moving beyond simple storage management by leveraging the Fusion automation engine to empower IT teams to become true data strategists. A major focus of our discussion moves to the new Fusion MCP server release. Mike and Ameerul explain the Model Context Protocol, describing it as the important bridge between infrastructure data and large language models. By providing the right context, the new Fusion MCP allows AI agents to move past confident guessing and hallucinations, enabling them to safely execute real world tasks like provisioning workloads and resolving incidents with supervised actions. We then highlight the open source commitment behind Fusion MCP, designed to help power users and dark site customers integrate their full infrastructure stacks. Mike and Ameerul discuss the power of API first development, the importance of human in the loop supervision for agentic AI, and the broader shift toward autonomous management. Listeners will gain practical insights into how this technology is helping organizations streamline operations and scale their data services more effectively. To learn more, visit: https://blog.everpuredata.com/purely-technical/smarter-ai-powered-data-management-with-everpure-fusion-mcp-server-2/ Check out the new Everpure digital customer community to join the conversation with peers and Everpure experts: https://purecommunity.purestorage.com/ 00:00 Intro and Welcome 06:38 What Product Managers Actually Do 09:55 Origin of Fusion 14:05 Applying AI to Data Management 16:18 What is Model Context Protocol (MCP) 25:45 Observe, Triage, and Act 35:15 MCP is Open Source 38:25 Availability of MCP for Users 42:49 Hot Takes Segment 48:31 Oops IT Stories

AdTechGod sits down with Tyler Denk, Co-Founder & CEO of beehiiv, to discuss how beehiiv evolved from a newsletter platform into a complete creator operating system. Tyler shares lessons from Morning Brew, why creators should own their audience, AI's role in publishing, and how beehiiv is reshaping newsletter and podcast monetization. Takeaways: Tyler shares how Morning Brew inspired the creation of beehiiv. Learn why owning your audience matters more than relying on social platforms. Discover how AI and automation are simplifying creator workflows. Hear how beehiiv is expanding into podcasts, communities, and advertising. Learn how the beehiiv Ad Network helps creators monetize newsletters of every size. Chapters:00:00 Introduction to Tyler Denk & beehiiv00:41 Tyler's journey from Morning Brew to founding beehiiv05:13 Reinventing newsletter publishing and growth07:46 Website builder, SEO, and content automation09:42 AI tools, MCP, and creator workflows11:05 The future of AI for content creators13:03 Building an all-in-one creator operating system15:35 Why creators should own their audience18:14 Social media strategy and platform integrations19:49 Inside the beehiiv Ad Network and newsletter monetization22:59 Helping small publishers earn advertising revenue24:57 Final thoughts and Tyler's personal newsletter Guests: AdTech God Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There are roughly 100x more people who use code than who can write code. As code that “just works” becomes easier to generate, this group may be the biggest prize of all — if you can get the agentic interface right.A key trend we have been tracking over at AINews is the absolute explosion in Codex usage this year, with MAU now up >10x from Jan 2026. Less than two weeks after their July 9th launch, OpenAI said ChatGPT Work and Codex had reached 10M users combined (as we cover in the pod, Codex now powers ChatGPT Work, so all ChatGPT Work users are now users of the Codex harness, even if they aren't traditional engineers) — showing the early innings of what happens when you graduate from coding agents to knowledge work agents:We've been calling out how coding agents are “breaking containment” to do everything else this year to power every other part of knowledge work - and it started with the org chart, with a major reorg last month that amounted to two of Codex's most prominent leaders, Greg and Tibo, taking responsibility over product and ChatGPT specifically, completing a “Superapp” consolidation cycle first discussed in March.With these updates Codex is no longer just a coding tool. In June, OpenAI said knowledge workers already accounting for roughly 20% of Codex's user base and growing more than 3x as quickly as developers. A product dedicated for knowledge workers was being pulled out of the Codex team.However, knowledge work has a different set of problems and environments than coding. For decades, knowledge work has been scattered across different primitives like documents for writing, spreadsheets for analysis, slide decks for communication, and specialized applications for everything else. ChatGPT Work now enables users to work across every primitive with agents. Instead of opening an application and manually operating its features, the user can describe an outcome and collaborates with an agent that can assemble the tools, context, and artifact needed to reach it.From building no-code products at Airtable to leading Productivity Engineering at OpenAI, Akshay Nathan has spent much of his career trying to make the power of software accessible to people who do not write code. In this episode, Akshay joins swyx and Vibhu to unpack the launch of ChatGPT Work, why Codex unexpectedly took off among non-developers inside OpenAI, and the company's broader plan to bring useful agents from software engineers to knowledge workers and eventually everyone.We go deep on the shared agent harness behind Codex and ChatGPT Work, why OpenAI brought the experiences together without making them identical, and how persistent computers, artifacts, Sites, plugins, memory, and sub-agents are changing what people can delegate to AI. Akshay explains why some teams are replacing decks and spreadsheets with interactive websites, how agents can gather context across code, Slack, documents, and local files, and what OpenAI learned from personal-agent products like OpenClaw.Side note: also don't miss Abhihek's sandbox track keynote at AIE, which now powers a lot of the sandboxing for ChatGPT Work… and yes was also broken by an unreleased OpenAI model in the recent HuggingFace incident.Akshay also reflects on how AI is transforming product development itself: why more people will become generalists with a specialty, why ideas and taste become the bottlenecks when almost anyone can build, why LLMs still struggle to generate genuinely grounded new ideas, and why teams must distinguish increased motion from actual progress.We discuss:* Why Codex unexpectedly took off among non-developers inside OpenAI* Why employees felt like using Codex gave them a new superpower* The product insight that led OpenAI to build ChatGPT Work* Why Codex and ChatGPT Work share the same underlying agent harness* How their UX, Git visibility, artifacts, and sandboxing defaults differ* Why OpenAI merged its agent experiences instead of building separate products* How AI is blurring the boundaries between engineering, design, strategy, and operations* Why OpenAI wants the default model configuration to work for most users* When power users should use deeper reasoning, Ultra, or multi-agent modes* Artifacts, agentic spreadsheets, and creating high-fidelity work products* Why interactive Sites may replace decks and spreadsheets* The challenge of designing a simple interface for an agent that can build almost anything* Why users should retry tasks that models could not handle three or six months ago* How AI can gather context for performance reviews without replacing human judgment* The OpenAI automation that turns internal Slack and document activity into memes* What reaching ten million ChatGPT Work and Codex users means for the product* How OpenClaw inspired persistent environments, scheduled tasks, and personal agents* Using ChatGPT for financial planning, budgeting, workouts, meals, and household management* The design tradeoffs behind sub-agents and how much of their work users should see* ChatGPT memory, Chronicle, and long-term context* Why AI may make more people generalists with deep specialties* Why ideas and taste become more important when almost anyone can build* Why LLMs still struggle with the instruction “bring me new ideas”* Measuring productivity through quality at-bats instead of commits, tokens, or pull requests* The critical difference between AI-generated motion and meaningful progressAkshay Nathan* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/akshaynathan/* X: https://x.com/akshaynathan_Timestamps00:00:00 Introduction and Bringing the Power of Code to Everyone00:01:33 Joining OpenAI and Preserving a Startup Culture00:02:40 What OpenAI Learned from Enterprise AI Adoption00:05:28 Why OpenAI Built ChatGPT Work00:07:17 Codex vs. ChatGPT Work and the Shared Agent Harness00:12:07 Why OpenAI Merged Its Agent Experiences00:16:24 Models, Reasoning Levels, and Choosing the Right Default00:20:26 Artifacts, Agentic Spreadsheets, and Model–Product Collaboration00:24:22 Why Sites Could Replace Decks and Spreadsheets00:30:08 Designing an Agent That Can Build Almost Anything00:34:28 From Developer Agents to Knowledge Work—and Everyone00:36:07 Power-User Advice and AI-Assisted Performance Reviews00:40:41 OpenAI's Internal AI Memes and the Ten-Million-User Launch00:44:39 OpenClaw, Personal Agents, and ChatGPT as an Operating System00:50:24 Sub-Agents, Ultra Mode, and How Much Control Users Need00:54:39 ChatGPT Memory, Personalization, and Chronicle01:00:19 How AI Is Reshaping Product Development and Tech Roles01:03:15 Ideas, Taste, and Why LLMs Struggle to Generate New Ideas01:04:42 Measuring Productivity, Quality At-Bats, and Motion vs. ProgressTranscriptIntroduction: Akshay Nathan, ChatGPT Work, and the No-Code ArcSwyx [00:00:00]: We're here in the studio with Akshay from OpenAI. Welcome.Akshay Nathan [00:00:07]: Thank you.Swyx [00:00:08]: And with our trusty co-host, Vibhu. So you recently launched ChatGPT Work. You lead Core Product Engineering. It's been a long journey, into all this. I find it very interesting that you started with no code or low code, with Walrus and Airtable. And to some extent, ChatGPT Work is like the super app of super apps of, well, here is the ultimate no code. You just write a prompt.Akshay Nathan [00:00:32]: Yeah. It's funny how things come, full circle. I think for a long time in my career, I started my career working consumer fintech, but then after that, like, there's this hypothesis that, the things that we were able to do with code, like, as engineers, like, if we could bring that to many more people in a more, accessible way, then that would be truly magical. We were working on a startup. It's funny, like, before LLMs, before vision LLMs, on how to do automated testing with AI. It was just kinda jank, back then, but doing what we can, and then worked at Airtable for a while on the same thesis that, like, if we can bring a database or the primitives behind a database to people, that'd be really useful to them. But once LLMs came onto the scene, it became clear that, this was the missing piece, like, the missing technology required to, like, bring the magic of code to everyone without them having to know what's going on underneath the hood. And so, like, I think this launch and a lot of the stuff that we've been up to is, like, the manifestation of that.From Walrus and Airtable to OpenAIVibhu [00:01:33]: How was stuff when you joined? So you joined OpenAI 2023. Now we've got, so much more stuff, so ChatGPT, Codex app, ChatGPT Work. Have things changed?Joining OpenAI and What Hasn't ChangedAkshay Nathan [00:01:44]: I think the more interesting thing is how things haven't changed. Like, one, I joined I remember when I joined, it was, like, five hundred people. One thing I was worried about was, like, I was looking for something, more early stage and, like, was it gonna feel startup enough? And I joined, and I was like, “This feels even more startup-y than I could ever imagine.” And, like, that really hasn't changed even till now. I think the, like, level of, like, bottoms-up ambition and, like, the ability of anyone to, like, do anything or have an idea and ship it is really cool. But on the, like, mission side, I think what was really compelling to me is this mission of, bringing frontier intelligence to everyone. Like, building AGI and then bringing it to everyone. And, I think acknowledging back then that, like, that vision is gonna, not be a linear progression. Like, we're probably gonna, like, try different products and have different things that succeed and don't. But the vision has stayed the same, and the mission has stayed the same, and we're starting to see the pieces, fall together, and that's really cool.Enterprise Lessons: No One-Size-Fits-All AISwyx [00:02:40]: You worked on Enterprise. What A lot of people never touch ChatGPT Enterprise. What is something that you learned from there that you're bringing into your work now?Akshay Nathan [00:02:52]: I think how there's no one-size-fits-all solution in Enterprise. I remember in the early days of ChatGPT Enterprise, like, when we talked to customers and, like, everyone. That was, like, when I think it was a year after ChatGPT was released, and everyone was so excited to bring, AI into their enterprise. And, there were all these teams being stood up. It was, like, the AI deployment team with, like, these enormous budgets. And if you asked anyone, like, what were they excited about? Like, what were they excited about solving? Like, at first, you'd get, like, kinda like the baseline answers of, like, “Yeah, we have all this context and data and all this stuff.” But then if you ask them, like, “What was, like, a discrete use case that, like, they want AI to enable in their workplace?” You get such a different, like, variance, like, explosion of, different types of answers. And it's interesting, like, you using, like, these models and these products, you have this box, and you can say anything to it, which is the magic. But it'on the flip side, it also means that, like, you don't know what to do with it. And in Enterprise, I think a big part of that is, like, meeting the users where they are, like, what use case were they trying to solve, and then teaching them how they can use AI to, like, gain leverage there.Swyx [00:03:56]: Do you meaningfully differentiate that from forward-deployed engineering?Akshay Nathan [00:04:01]: I think there is the go-to-market side of it and then there is the product side of it. I think you need someone on the product side. And I think, like, however good we get at FDE motion, like, I think at the end of the day, if we have a user who's, like, looking at their computer or looking at their phone, like, it's our job in the product to, like, be enabling them and showing them where to go. So we're really excited about that.Vibhu [00:04:24]: Do you think there's been changes, over the past three years of adoption? So there have been, step function changes. You have reasoning models and whatnot. Is there still the same problems of Enterprise has black box, don't know what to do with it, or have things changed?Adoption, Agents, and the Next 10x MarketAkshay Nathan [00:04:39]: We're seeing now that, like, there's this huge uptake, right? Everyone is extremely excited about it. It feels like, many people are, millions, hundreds of millions of people are using ChatGPT. They understand, like, how generally to work with AI. But then, like, every time, like, a new capability gets unlocked, so now, like, we're seeing with agents, like, there is probably a contingent of, like, early adopters still who, truly get it, who are like, “ we you can do anything. You just have to make sure the right context is there, it's connected to the right tools, and that you are supervising it, but, like, anything is possible.” But then there's, like, this, like, 10x or 100x bigger market where, like, they don't yet get that, or they don't yet see that. And so I think that's the next stage here. So to answer your question, like, I think the adoption is there and growing fast, but I think the opportunity is, like, far bigger than that. That's where we wanna play, especially with ChatGPT Work.ChatGPT Work, Codex, and the Super App MergeSwyx [00:05:27]: Yeah. well, let's, let's skip ahead to ChatGPT Work. only, like, a month ago or so, announced. what was the decision process that led into it? there was this, overall merging of the super app. Is that what we're officially calling it? you deprecated the browser as well. Just, summarize your last, like, couple months of working on this thing.Akshay Nathan [00:05:50]: Yeah. It feels like forever now, but it's only been a few months. I think maybe the one, impetus that, like- Is most salient is when we release Codex, or even internally had Codex, like, it was really surprising to us, I think we recently put out some stats on this, that there was this, like, real inflection of, like, adoption among non-developers at OpenAI. And, I, through this product development process, like, would go to, like, these UXR sessions to talk to people internally. And the thing that stuck out to me is, like, one, like, you go talk to, like, strategic finance or marketing or whatever, and they're all using Codex for, their use cases. That part's cool, but the thing that really stuck out to me is how proud people were that they were using Codex. Like, how, likeSwyx [00:06:34]: It's like, “I'm not supposed to be using it, but I am.”Akshay Nathan [00:06:36]: It was that. It was, like, that they were, early to this, like, new thing, but it was also this thing of, like, they felt like they had a superpower, right? And, what we recognized then is that, like, the power of Codex, the power of agents, like, we already had this massive distribution base of people who have, come to know and love ChatGPT. Like, how do we show that to them? Like, how do we bring it to them? Which is, like, a hard product problem, and it's, like, a tricky thing, right? There's many ways you can go about it. And so that's what we called the Merge and the Super App over time, and ultimately launched it in ChatGPT Work, is how do we do that? But it came from that initial realization that, like, the power was not only for developers, like, much earlier than probably even we thought. Like, it could be extended to everyone.Swyx [00:07:17]: How do you see the products differently? So, like, who is it for, right? So Codex started out even CLI, then app. Now there's a merge of ChatGPT Codex and ChatGPT Work, so is it the opening for the average user, for enterprise, for work? How do you position it?Akshay Nathan [00:07:36]: I think we want to get it to position it for if you're doing work-related things, for lack of a better word, right?Who ChatGPT Work Is ForAkshay Nathan [00:07:42]: I think productivity is what, like, the pillar that I support. Like, that's the name of the team. And the reason for that, the reason we call it productivity and not, like, enterprise or, like, work or something like that, is because there's also personal productivity, right? And, like, I think ChatGPT Work is I've seen people do things in their personal lives that you wouldn't classify as, like, work technically, but, like, these agents are, super capable for. Like, one recent example that someone posted about, on our Slack is, like, someone had, like, a missed package, like they didn't receive it, and then they got, like, the picture of it, from Amazon or whoever the courier was, and they, like, asked ChatGPT Work to, like, find out where that package is. And, like, the agent, is extremely tenacious and, like, took the image and, like, looked at a bunch of, like, listings around their neighborhood and figured out exactly the apartment complex in which the package was, like, gave them some information. And so, like, I think there's all these things that, like, you, work-related or productivity-related things, I think that's what we want the product to be. You asked about Codex. I think we think Codex is, a durable brand, but we have a principle that, like, the user we don't want a user to get stuck in a tab or an experience where they don't get the power of the product. And so, like, everything that you can do, in the Codex portion of the product on desktop, you can do in ChatGPT Work and vice versa. But we made some opinionated product decisions on, like, how much of the Git state, if you're in a Git repo, do we wanna expose to the end user? Or how much do we wanna make the experience of seeing the agents thinking, like, diff forward so that you get exposed to the diffs out of the box. And then, like, on the safety side, like, how do we wanna think about, like, sandboxing and making sure that we have the right defaults in one state versus the other? So, there's, like, some opinions that go behind that, but we do want We don't want the user to need to choose which experience they're in.Swyx [00:09:26]: That is a good goal for AGI, right? Like, people don't want, like, to hide to choose what version of AGI they want. They just want the AGI to decide for them. can I get an answer or, like It's not super clear to me. Is the Codex harness and the ChatGPT Work harness the same? Is it just UI affordances, or are there prompt level or even deeper differences?Shared Harness, Different UX: Codex vs. WorkAkshay Nathan [00:09:49]: So the harness is the same. The harness is shared. on In both of the products, we made improvements to the harness to make it good for knowledge work, especially as it relates to plug-ins or computer use or artifacts. You get that power regardless of which experience you're in. On the UX side, there's opinionated takes that we have when you're in Codex mode, what the UX should be how the UX should behave, and some stuff around the sandbox like I mentioned, but the underlying harness and capabilities should be the same.Swyx [00:10:16]: I'm just kinda curious. Maybe we can, -- Is there a query that we can run that would look different in the two modes?Akshay Nathan [00:10:23]: Yeah. I tried to create, like ask it to create, like, a retirement calculator spreadsheet or something, in both modes. And then in Codex mode, you might have to be in a repo for this, but you'll see, like, the diffs of, like, the sheet that it's creating and stuff like that, and the file edits. But in Work you won't be able to see that.Swyx [00:10:42]: I think that's, that's super clear. And then also the other thing I wanted to dive into was your, the productivity team. what else is there? first of all, what are the top-level teams other than productivity? Isn't productivity everything?Productivity Teams and Core ChatAkshay Nathan [00:10:55]: SoSwyx [00:10:55]: Science?Akshay Nathan [00:10:55]: We have a team focused on ChatGPT. Like, the core chat experience, for consumer, which is like, not, I think all productivity. Like, there'People are using ChatGPT every day for search to, figure out how to write messages to loved ones, to think about, how to, like, learn a new topic, et cetera. And so there's so much more inside to create images. And there's so much more in chat that, the hundreds of millions of users are using that warrants, like, a very dedicated effort. And there's teams focused on enterprise and infrastructure and API and stuff like that, so.Swyx [00:11:33]: I will bring it up.Retirement Calculator Demo and Git-First UXSwyx [00:11:34]: Yeah. So I have them both running. This is ChatGPT Work. There's a Codex version here. I picked “Five Little Ducks” song, so this will take a while.Akshay Nathan [00:11:43]: Huh.Swyx [00:11:43]: I think we'll just keep it in the background and, as they finish, we'll look into some of the differences.Akshay Nathan [00:11:48]: Yeah. But immediately, I think if you flip back to the Codex version you'll see that,Swyx [00:11:53]: That it assumesAkshay Nathan [00:11:54]: Like theSwyx [00:11:54]: It assumes Git. Yeah. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:11:56]: The, like, dynamic island assumes that you're in a Git repo. And you might miss some stuff because some of it is, like, in the actual chain of thought with those changes and how we display that, but yeah.Swyx [00:12:07]: Is there an unintuitive like, is there a thing that you wanted to ship and then you got feedback, and you were like, “No, let's not do it?” Like, what's the thinking behind that?Why Merge the ExperiencesAkshay Nathan [00:12:14]: In, ChatGPT Work?Akshay Nathan [00:12:17]: I think one direction we could have gone with this is, like, keeping the experiences, like, completely separate. So it's like, whySwyx [00:12:22]: Different apps.Akshay Nathan [00:12:23]: Exactly, like different apps or even in the same app, like different, completely different experiences. Like, why merge it all? Like, what is. Codex, people love. Like, why bring these products together? And I think the intuition here is that, like, all of our jobs are, like, changing dramatically with AI. Like, for, like, every few months, like, I feel like I wake up, and I'm, like, doing a completely different thing than I was doing a few months ago. And my hypothesis here is that, or I should say our hypothesis is that, like, part of what we're, we're building, this technology is giving people leverage. Like, the things, maybe it's the more mundane parts of your job or parts that, like, if you were able to automate, you'd be able to share more ideas faster or whatever, like, you're able to do now. And because of that, like, that might blur the lines between someone who's, like, only writing code or creating strategy docs or, planning events or, helping with marketing or doing podcasts or whatever, right? And so, like, these things are gonna get blurred over time. And so, like, trying to draw a hard boundary based on, like, the who you are is gonna be, is gonna be tough. And, like, we should enable users to choose, but we shouldn't box them in. And so a lot of the work that went in here, like, keeping the primitives the same, like for example, plugins are, like, unified across, this product and ChatGPT and the cloud, was because of that. It's this thesis that, like, eventually things are gonna come together and we don't wanna be Like, we wanna be prescriptive about when to be in either experience, but we don't want to box anyone in.Swyx [00:13:45]: I wonder if there's users who are very tuned to the old ChatGPT harness that is effectively now replaced by the Codex harness. I can't imagine what that was, but maybe they're more the more conversational side. Can you compare and contrast the two harnesses? ‘Cause only you've seen it.Akshay Nathan [00:14:02]: Yeah. I think ChatGPT, the existing harness, like, still exists today. Like, it exists in this app,Harness Engineering: ChatGPT vs. CodexSwyx [00:14:08]: The classic, right?Akshay Nathan [00:14:09]: TheVibhu [00:14:09]: You just start a new chat, and you don't go under Work, right?Akshay Nathan [00:14:13]: Yeah. If you startVibhu [00:14:13]: SoAkshay Nathan [00:14:14]: A new chat and go to chat, then you're, you're talking to ChatGPT with the instant model.Vibhu [00:14:16]: Oh, we can technically do another. But on instant.Swyx [00:14:21]: Yeah. So this one's not gonna code or it's gonna be in line. It's on a in line in a sandbox.Akshay Nathan [00:14:26]: It'llVibhu [00:14:27]: Oh, that's coolAkshay Nathan [00:14:27]: We try to push you to go to Work if you're creating a spreadsheet. Yeah, but this isSwyx [00:14:30]: And this is a router decision? Sorry. Is it a router decision?Akshay Nathan [00:14:34]: This is the decision that, the model is making, and then, like it sees that you're able to. or you're trying to do something that would be better served in Work mode. But I think your question was like, what are the advantages of, like, the chat, like ChatGPT chat harness?Swyx [00:14:48]: It's more broadly, like, I wanna, do an oral history of harness engineering. Right? the ChatGPT harness lasted us from, let's call it the ‘01 era, until now, and now it's being replaced by the Codex harness effectively. And they're, they're overlapping somewhat, but I'm curious what changed if there is.Akshay Nathan [00:15:10]: My perspective on this is, like, there's, there's, there's there's like a constant process of, like, divergence, convergence, divergence, convergence. And in chat, like, many of the use cases I was talking about before, like, search or learning, I think we're, we're really optimizing for latency and optimizing for personality and, like, different things that, over time, like the product The reason people love ChatGPT is because we've been optimizing for those things and working on them for so long. Codex, what we learned was that, like, if you give the agent access to this infinitely flexible environment as a computer, it can do really powerful things. And so when we think about, like, okay, well, for knowledge work, like, what is which mode should we choose? It was like it felt more natural to us to bring that to this, like, computer environment and, maybe abstract some of the details of this computer away from users who might not be used to that, but, like, give them that same power. But ultimately, I think that we want the power in all places, right? We wanna meet people where they are. So I'm sure there'll be work down the road in order to get things to be, equivalently capable in all scenarios. But it's just a question of, like, what we've been focusing on the product on historically and what we're focusing on now.Models, Defaults, and the Reasoning SliderVibhu [00:16:24]: I think alongside that, outside of just harness and when to use Codex, ChatGPT, or Work, there's also the new models you've released, right? any guidance there? So people love to min-max what to use, like only use Terra on high reasoning versus, for this, you wanna use Sol here, ignore all theseAkshay Nathan [00:16:44]: There's 32 options.Vibhu [00:16:46]: But, that being said, for people that are expanding, so, productivity trying stuff for work that don't have the breakdown of what all this is what's, what's the advice, right?Akshay Nathan [00:16:59]: Well, I think before the advice, like the first thing is, like, none of this would be possible without these models. Like, the, I think you asked earlier, like, what was, like, the inspiration for work and, like, early on, like I mentioned, like, what we were seeing with Codex, but that was also because the models were getting infinitely more capable. That's happening again. I think it's like another step function jump now. And to answer the question on advice, like we want this default to be the best possible. Like, we wanna be opinionated about the default, and so we've we've chosen a default that we think is gonna be the best for everyone. And, we have for power users options under the hood. We could One could argue that there might be too many right now, and we're, working on simplifying it. But you can extend, the reasoning level, and you can change between the different model classes if you need to, but the default should be the best for most use cases. So my advice to most people would be to stick to that. And then, if you reach a situation in which you think that you could, you wanna try, a different configuration, if you're not seeing either the efficiency on the cost side or the quality on the intelligence side, then you can change the defaults and see if you can get something better. But we think that the default should be good enough.Swyx [00:18:09]: I have, I'm just gonna run something by you since you have way more experience than me. I've recently been doing Sol Lite but with goal, with the idea that the goal augments the reasoning effort, but with more terminations and turns.Swyx [00:18:24]: Is that a good way to think about it as opposed to Sol Ultra or Sol, Extra High?Akshay Nathan [00:18:29]: Yeah. It's hard to say becauseSwyx [00:18:31]: Yeah. It's like an interaction effect.Akshay Nathan [00:18:33]: exactly. It's like there's a preference on, for you as an individual, like how do you like to collaborate with the models? Like how many of those like terminations, as you call them, do you want where, you can steer or make sure that it's doing the right thing?Akshay Nathan [00:18:46]: I think generally people should try whatever works for them. I think that like using Ultra or the like multi-agent setups are best for like when you have like tasks that are either incredibly complicated, like open explorations or very paralyzable. I think even for tasks using goal, I think is best for tasks that you'll be able to make consistent progress in a way that's verifiable over time. But I think for most tasks, they don't fall into either of those buckets. And so like at least when they're starting, and so that's why I think the best first step is like trying it with the default configuration and then seeing like where you wanna go from there.Swyx [00:19:29]: Right. You guys worked on a slider, which is super helpful for reducing the amount of panic.Vibhu [00:19:36]: It's nice on mobile at least. There's a nice slider there.Swyx [00:19:38]: It's nicer.Vibhu [00:19:39]: I haven't tried it.Swyx [00:19:40]: So you have the advanced view there, but if you click advanced view. Yeah.Vibhu [00:19:44]: Ooh, it's just a nice slider. Yeah.Swyx [00:19:46]: Very pretty, very colorful.Akshay Nathan [00:19:48]: Yeah. The idea was here was like reduce it to like one dimension even though there's multiple dimensions, right? Try to project it onto a single dimension for the user. Like, something from that represents like, speed and efficiency on one side and then like quality and thoroughness on the other side.Artifacts, Spreadsheets, and the Work LaunchSwyx [00:20:04]: I am just puzzled that it uses Sol so much, like the lowerVibhu [00:20:07]: NoSwyx [00:20:07]: Grounds I would've usedVibhu [00:20:08]: I think the slider, if I'm not mistaken, isSwyx [00:20:09]: Terra.Vibhu [00:20:10]: Oh, it is.Swyx [00:20:11]: Yeah. See? So they preset Terra to only be the light one. But like I think a lot of people would more people should use Terra. One, because Sol keeps running out of capacity.Vibhu [00:20:22]: I'm the reason. Here's ten minutes of ourSwyx [00:20:24]: There you goVibhu [00:20:25]: Retirement calculator.Swyx [00:20:26]: Oh, that's the Excel thing working for you.Vibhu [00:20:28]: This is,Swyx [00:20:28]: Oh my God. Look at thatVibhu [00:20:28]: This is work, and then Codex is still cooking, so we'll get back into it. I think it'll be interesting to see the thought process, the reasoning, and also, this is eight minutes on work. Codex is still cooking.Swyx [00:20:41]: Yeah. And by the way, so I've, do Gabriel Chua? He's part of the OpenAI Singapore team. He showed me this, and I was like pretty shocked that this looks like Excel. It edits Excel files. You never paid an Excel license, right? Like, but somehow this is like workable and it's agentic Excel.Akshay Nathan [00:21:01]: Yeah. one of the big like pushes that we made for this launch was like artifacts, right?Akshay Nathan [00:21:05]: Like both on the model side, like I think if you compare this with GPT-5.5 and GPT-5.4 before that, you'll see that there's been pretty dramatic improvements in the quality of these artifacts and then also on the product side.Vibhu [00:21:16]: The UX side is also crazy, like hosted sites and whatnot. No longer needing to host your own little webpage, like itSwyx [00:21:23]: Oh, I have a story about that. I can do, a separate thing. I'll need to take the visuals here, but we-we'll, we'll cut to that later. Was there co-training, because you were moving making this big move and you launched GPT-5.6 on the same day as ChatGPT Work? Was there influence between the model training teams and the harness teams, or did they did the launch dates just happen to line up the same day?Akshay Nathan [00:21:46]: I think the we collaborate heavily with the research teams, and I think that's like one of the most magical parts of the job, like the most fun parts of the job. But yeah, just using artifacts as an example. Like, a lot of what you're seeing, like underneath the hood, there's a lot of work that went into making sure that like, we had the right infra to be able to train the models to get better at this. And then on the product side, like had the right experience for users to be able to collaborate with the model on an artifact like this. In fact, like this whole viewer, like the intuition here is that like, it's not necessarily that you wouldn't need an Excel license. This is stage one, right? Like, this is probably not what you meant when you're like making a retirement calculator.Vibhu [00:22:24]: Yeah, you can iterate very easily. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:22:24]: You wanna iterate and like when you're seeing it, and if this thing is high fidelity to like what you would see in or what your coworkers would see if you were to send this to Sean, like that I think makes it so easier and makes you trust the product in terms of iteration.Vibhu [00:22:39]: When you say coworkers would see, do you see a multiplayer, multi-team collaboration with artifacts? Any things you guys think about that?Multiplayer Artifacts and CollaborationSwyx [00:22:46]: You can already share it, right?Akshay Nathan [00:22:48]: Yeah. It's inter It's something that, we're actively thinking about. one thing that, we've noticed internally without talking too much about the roadmap is that like there's many times when someone will ping me about something, and I will ask ChatGPT Work the question, and then I'll ping them back the answer.Akshay Nathan [00:23:04]: And then I'll be thinking likeVibhu [00:23:04]: Like the simplest would be, the three of us are just all on one hosted.Akshay Nathan [00:23:07]: Exactly. And I'll think about like was I required in this loop or and then maybe it was, rephrase like what they were asking or pulled from certain context or whatever. But like, when I gave them back the answer, that process was also lossy, right? Like I gave them just like my interpretation of what ChatGPT Work cooked up. But like underneath the hood, there's so much context like in the rollout and stuff that could be interesting.Vibhu [00:23:28]: Yeah, it'sSwyx [00:23:28]: So like the answer was preemptively respond to every inbound request?Akshay Nathan [00:23:33]: No, it was just like literally like this is what I do sometimes as my job.Swyx [00:23:36]: I know you copy-paste and then you're just a message forwarding serviceAkshay Nathan [00:23:39]: Yeah. Yeah, exactlySwyx [00:23:39]: From AI to AI.Vibhu [00:23:40]: But I think it's interesting, right? It helps people understand the capability of what you can ask and delegate that oftentimes people don't realize until they try or someone shows you, and then you're like, “Oh, okay. Okay, I see.”Swyx [00:23:52]: I think it's als there's also like a, light security issue, where like you're the permissions layer. Like yes, I could query everything that you query, and I could get an automated response, but maybe I'm not supposed to see it. And that there's no way I would know because I'm not supposed to know what I don't know.Akshay Nathan [00:24:07]: Especially as like, with ChatGPT Work, we're, we're asking you to connect your plug-ins and, it's pulling from your local files and stuff like that. Like the amount of context that the agent has access to is like- Deeply personal and like that's something I think we need to preserve, so that'll be definitely a challenge.Swyx [00:24:22]: There's Excel, there's PowerPoint, there's Docs, the, grand trio of work. What other formats of work do you think about? like you worked on Airtable. Is there a future where there's like OpenAI Airtable? Like what does that look like if you ever ended up doing it?Akshay Nathan [00:24:41]: It's a really good question. I think,Formats of Work: Sites as Knowledge ArtifactsAkshay Nathan [00:24:43]: one that you didn't bring up was Sites, and I think that wasSwyx [00:24:46]: SitesAkshay Nathan [00:24:46]: A core part of this launch. There's one side of Sites that I think people commonly talk about, especially on Twitter and stuff or X, of like, this like prototyping tool. And like we saw that happen with this launch even. The model slider that you guys were referencing earlier, like that was developed almost fully in a Site. Like, the collaboration between design and engineering and product on that was like on a site where we play with, the affordance and figure out how it feels and all of that. But the other aspect that I think is a little bit less talked about is like Sites as like an artifact for knowledge work. I was talking to someone the other day who's on like our corporate finance team, and like we were mentioning how like now when they have these reports that they're, they're working on as a team month to month, historically those things were in slide decks and in spreadsheets, and now they're just in Sites. And like Sites is the mechanism that they collaborate across the team. And the reason is ‘cause it's like, it's like somewhat higher bandwidth. Like, at these tools like PowerPoint and Excel are like infinitely flexible, but at some point you reach the boundary of like either as a human you may not know how to use some feature or something, or the product itself doesn't support it. But with a site you can do anything. You ask for anything and you can get that. once people see that magic, I think it's been really valuable.Swyx [00:26:02]: Yeah, let me show you my case study. this involves all the hot topics including ChatGPT Work, but also GPT-5.6 token billionaires and token maxing and Sites and auto research. I'm a fan of this game called Strata. It's, it's like a little board game that youSites, Auto Research, and Research DashboardsSwyx [00:26:17]: That you play with, physical blocks, that come on top of it like that. So over the weekend I took like thirty photos and just threw into ChatGPT. one point seven billion tokens later, out comes this site with a fully playable thingAkshay Nathan [00:26:32]: WowSwyx [00:26:32]: With 3D, block placement and everything. Because it requires physical blocks and I needed friends to train on it so they can get better, so I can play against them. But also, I could also, do things like train an AI on it and that's, thatAkshay Nathan [00:26:45]: That's your auto researchSwyx [00:26:46]: That gets into auto research. So, you want to train your own AIs, and then make sure they self-play against, each other. I need to set both AIs. So this is AI versus AI, and they're, they're gonna self-play. the AIs start out bad and then you want to define a loss function and get good. I wasn't gonna supervise all this. I was at, I was down in San Mateo, attending a conference. What I ended up doing was, auto researching and on this and creating benchmarks and that there was just way too many parameters for me to read. So I started asking it for a site, and it's created this lab, panel. Where is there a, is there a shortcut for a site that is created?Akshay Nathan [00:27:28]: You should be able to go in the sidebar to Sites, top of the sidebar. The left sidebar.Swyx [00:27:33]: This one? Oh, left?Akshay Nathan [00:27:35]: Yeah. Just scroll all the way to the top.Swyx [00:27:36]: Oh. Oh, it says Sites. Oh, there you go. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:27:39]: Ooh.Swyx [00:27:40]: So it create, it creates the sites. I don't, I don't think this is, it is exactly what I wanted, but let me show you what it popped up, right? Like I think as a research artifact, it is very important to communicate, exactly, what is being done. Outputs this thing which I eventually started publishing. So I moved it off of Sites because I wanted more, database and infrastructure than Sites afforded me. But this is like a research output that you can start to mess with and like try to think about like what hyperparameters are you tuning for training AIs. And like I was trying to make like scaling laws and everything and doing all sorts of like game optimization stuff. And the fact that you can just throw this up as a research artifact, like I no longer need to read ChatGPT output. I read Site output. But then there's also a huge sprawl. Like look at how long this thing is. There's so many numbers. It is pretty overwhelming, so then I have to start pruning it from there. But, it's an interesting transition from Markdown effectively that you're putting out to, you're putting out a whole functional site.Akshay Nathan [00:28:41]: I think Markdown just isn't that optimal for people to read, right? Might as well just write HTML website and I don't know. I think you can do a lot with customizing this, right? You have your skills that explain what you want. Like I noticed they're quite verbose. I don't need a lot of this information.Swyx [00:28:57]: It's very verbose.Akshay Nathan [00:28:58]: So and then the nice thing of having a site side by side is, you just iterate on what you want and what you don't, right?Swyx [00:29:05]: Yeah. I don't know if, any that triggers any stories for you of how it's run internally. Am I doing this right?Akshay Nathan [00:29:11]: Yeah. I think that this is like a workflow that we're seeing like all different types of teams use, where like the canonical artifact that was previously a deck or something is now becoming a site. And like with a site you, because it's just HTML, you can like. It's infinitely flexible. And so, if you want to give more prominence to a certain thing that like in a slide deck would, feel like it was buried, like you can do that. You can have it be like the hero image, right? And so I think that like, people are starting to see that. There's more work to be done to make these things like much more easier, easy to collaborate on. You mentioned that they're very, they're long and verbose, could be broken up. I'm sure that there's still something to do there.Swyx [00:29:53]: They're super long. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:29:54]: Yeah. But I think we're starting to see that like there is this aspect of this is a really interesting, format, for people to use, that's like much more flexible than what they ever had before.Swyx [00:30:07]: I think your job also comes becomes meta. You're not designing the products. You're designing a product to make products, and I'm curious how you manage that.Designing a Product That Makes ProductsAkshay Nathan [00:30:18]: I think one thing that we've been Like when we look at the UX, like that we've been thinking a lot about is how can we balance like simplicity with capability? Like if we're designing a product, like you said, that like is made to make up build other things, right? You can build so many different things. But we can't put that all in front of you because you'll get overwhelmed.Vibhu [00:30:41]: Yes.Akshay Nathan [00:30:41]: And so we had similar problem or similar challenges even Chat-with ChatGPT, but especially now, like when there's so much that can be done, I think the balance that we're constantly trying to strike is like, how can we give the user enough of a UI surface where, they can be expressive, they can tell the agent what they need, they can verify that it's using the right tools, it's pulling from the right sources, et cetera, but then it gets out of the way. And then how can we build the right system such that we can show them instead of telling them what can be done? Because so much of this is gonna be like, how do they discover the next use case and the next one after that if they really want to be super powered by the AI.Games, Private Evals, and Show-Don'TellVibhu [00:31:19]: Yeah. It's interesting. I feel like everyone also just has a different way to do it, right? I made a similar version of this same game. I didn't take any pictures of board or rule game. I threw in at goal eighteen minutes, fifty-three seconds later, a lot of tokens later, I've got a similar version. not with all the auto research and whatnot, butAkshay Nathan [00:31:39]: You gotta do all the latest trends.Vibhu [00:31:40]: And yeah, I did it with, did it with Codex, not Work, but it's interesting, right?Akshay Nathan [00:31:45]: Yeah. And this is GPT Image generating the pro avatars. Very good for game design. LikeVibhu [00:31:51]: AndAkshay Nathan [00:31:52]: A lot of game designers were like really into GPT Image for assets.Vibhu [00:31:54]: I will say like the broader takeaway probably is the reason that we do this is more so just to test the tools, right? Like, this was also a test for GPT-5.6 came out. I had done the game on GPT-5.5, right? The ability for me to no longer need it to. I had to feed it the rules. It's, it's a pretty niche game. It couldn't find how to do this on its own.Akshay Nathan [00:32:15]: Oh, yeah.Vibhu [00:32:15]: GPT-5.6Akshay Nathan [00:32:16]: It is out-of-distribution, which is why I was also very keen on testing the GPT-5.6 capability.Vibhu [00:32:21]: But, this is just as work comes out, as new things come out, these are just our side ways to test things, right?Akshay Nathan [00:32:27]: Yeah. It's some private eval. That is not this private.Vibhu [00:32:31]: But also valuable because now you can send this to your friends and I learned about this game through seeing this.Akshay Nathan [00:32:36]: It's a hard game. He's very good.Vibhu [00:32:39]: It's good to when no one is competing with you. But yes, it's a classic RL problem of like self-play, bootstrapping your game AI. yeah, you see how easily work becomes personal and personal becomes work because the thing I do for personal, it directly informs people I work with because I showed it to them. They were like, “Oh, you can do that with GPT?” Which like I imagine is the growth strategy.Akshay Nathan [00:33:02]: Yeah. The show not tell is a big piece that, I think we've we're not still not fully cracked of like, showing people all the things that they can do with the product versus like trying to teach that to them through like, articles or onboarding or whatever.Akshay Nathan [00:33:18]: So meeting them in the moment.Vibhu [00:33:19]: It's a career risk for me, because I used to be in developer relations, right? Where your job is to show, and then you're like, “What do you mean? You don't, you don't need.” your job is to tell. And then. But the product people are like, “Well, we don't need you if our product is intuitive enough.” SoAkshay Nathan [00:33:37]: Yeah. that's the magic of the models. So you can tailor the telling or the showing to like specifically what the user needs, like what they care about, what they've done in the past, exactly where they are on the adoption journey. So I think that's like gonna be a super big opportunity.Vibhu [00:33:50]: Seems easier and easier now to tailor custom showing, right? People have different use cases. As much as you said you don't wanna segment different people into different buckets, right? It's also not that hard to for people that are in different categories. But the question, is you said your team is more broadly on. What was the term you used? Productivity?From Developers to Knowledge Work to EveryoneAkshay Nathan [00:34:12]: Productivity.Vibhu [00:34:12]: Productivity. So howAkshay Nathan [00:34:12]: Which is now work.Vibhu [00:34:14]: Is it work? Is there another distribution that we're not hitting? Is there a group of people that will have something different than ChatGPT, Codex or Work? Is there more that the mass isn't targeting?Akshay Nathan [00:34:28]: I see it as like a sequencing, like. The vision is like bring useful agents to everyone. We started with like developers. Like developers historically are like early adopters that are willing to put up with more friction, set things up, et cetera. Like that's where, Codex started. I think the next opportunity is like what we call general knowledge work, all the other functions around developers. I think when you go from developers to this segment, like there's inherent challenges with like, this show not tell thing that we're talking about, making the product more understandable, bringing in new capabilities that matter more for this cohort than matter for developers, things like artifacts, things like computer use, et cetera. And then I think like the same learnings, like similarly how we took the learnings from developers and brought it to, general knowledge work, the next stage will be like taking the learnings from general knowledge work and bringing it to everyone no matter what they're doing in their lives. And we're already seeing that a little bit. Like this game example that you have is, something that's like on the border of like fun and personal life to, your professional life. I use ChatGPT Work full-time at home for everything, like for whatever I'm doing. I used it the other day to come up with a meal plan and like, save that on the like computer environment that it has and something that I can continue going back to. Like is everyone doing that yet? Probably not because the thing says work on it, but eventually, we wanna get people there.Vibhu [00:35:51]: ChatGPT life.Akshay Nathan [00:35:52]: Yeah, exactly. ChatGPT cooking. But I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of opportunity there, but I see it as like, we're, we're built we built a foundation in software engineering, and we're gonna take the same learnings that we take from software engineering to knowledge work to everyone.Vibhu [00:36:07]: Do you have any power user advice? I feel like, there's a group of people that will live it, use it for everything, stay on it twenty four-seven. And then there's a bit of a gap between that crew and people that, okay, I use it for work. I use it occasionally. Sometimes I type questions. any advice, any learnings, anything you recommend or just, takeaways that you've found that help bridge that gap?Power User Advice: Push the Frontier of ImaginationAkshay Nathan [00:36:30]: I think a couple things that I've seen is like, one, that it really helps to broaden your imagination of what's possible, and this has been a learning even for me. Like, the technology has progressed so fast that, something that, like, even three months ago, like, no way the models can do this. Like, now it's like, wow, it's like it can. Like,Swyx [00:36:52]: Give an exampleAkshay Nathan [00:36:52]: We're going through right now our, like, review cycle internally, and, people always talked about this as, like, a thing that the models are good at and like, there's a cliché of like: Okay, like, no one wants to be writing reviews and, like, we just use AI to do it. But in all seriousnessSwyx [00:37:09]: And it can evaluate it as well.Akshay Nathan [00:37:10]: Yeah, exactly. In all seriousness, before it was, like, just, like, slop and, like, I think it was helpful, but, not super productive. Now I've found that, like, the model can do a much better job than me, especially in this environment of, like, pulling context on, like, what people are up to, how they've like the things that they've done to make a difference, highlighting like, wins that they've had that, like, I might may not even have seen. It has access to, like, everything, right? Like the code, like, things that they've caught, reviews, Slack, everything. And so it's, like, incredibly powerful in that domain and, like, just like six months ago, the last time we did this cycle, like, I didn't even I tried using it, but it was not at all helpful. And this time it's been, like, incredibly helpful and, like, so I think continuing to push the frontier of imagination of what's possible, even if you tried something before, I think is maybe the my biggest piece of advice. The other, thing is, like, the more you put in, especially in this environment where, like, the model has access to everything on your computer or in ChatGPT Work, like you can create, artifacts over time and save them in your library and, like, the model will continue having access to those. Like, the more information you give it about whatever domain you're in, whether it's your life or your work, the more valuable it becomes, and it'll become valuable in, like, ways that might surprise you. Like, it might pull from context in a way that, may be proactive and that you might not even have thought about. But it needs to have access to those, to that those tools or that context first.Reviews, Agentic Search, and Context GatheringSwyx [00:38:27]: One thing I just wanna talk about the review stuff because I'm still that's a very sensitive thing and you're, you're a founder, you've managed people, you've hired people. As manager myself, I'm very reticent to put out any LLM-generated things especially when it comes to people, ‘cause it feels like you don't care.Swyx [00:38:46]: Presumably at OpenAI, people are more open to being eval rated by GPT. But are there any unofficial rules around this? Like, what's the etiquette?Akshay Nathan [00:38:57]: Oh, I think the etiquette is that, like, I would never write something via, like, well, solely via AI and, like, present it as, like, a review for someone. What I was talking about is more, like, gathering context. That's the place where it's incredibly helpful.Swyx [00:39:08]: So it's just search.Akshay Nathan [00:39:09]: Yeah, exactly.Swyx [00:39:09]: It's agentic search. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:39:10]: It's like agentic search, but, that you can tailor and steer much more capably than you could before, ‘cause, like, the thing is it's all there's a flywheel happening, right? Because of Codex, people are able to do, and because of ChatGPT, people are able to do so much more now than ever before. And if you're able to do so much more, it's easy to miss things as well. And so, like, I think we need to use these same tools to keep up with all the impact that people are having and understand, where we can be helpful.Swyx [00:39:39]: I think the thing, like, I run a small company, so easy to search, but at the scale of OpenAI with the amount of messages that you guys put in Slack, do you think that it misses things?Remembering What Humans MissAkshay Nathan [00:39:50]: Probably, but I think that I also miss things.Swyx [00:39:52]: Like, it doesn't matter, right?Vibhu [00:39:53]: I think sometimes it'sSwyx [00:39:53]: Like it's, as it needs to be human-levelAkshay Nathan [00:39:54]: It's all relative, right? Yeah.Vibhu [00:39:56]: Sometimes it's nice when it finds things you wouldn't, right? Like right now, my Codex system prompts, they're set up in such a way that every project I have has a secret- separate, notes MD, and it just writes learnings to there. And then the global one can pull from all these. So sometimes it'll be like: Oh, there's this project you did like four months ago. Here's a note that we had, and it randomly pulls it back into context that I would never do, I haven't thought about.Vibhu [00:40:20]: And I'm like, okay, this is quite superhuman, right? Like, stuff that would. And, it'll save like hours on chunking of stuff or find something that's already been done. I'm like, as much as it might miss stuff, I would too, but it's very useful when it finds stuff. And I have like a very, non-super engineered solution to this. It's just marked down files that get pulled whenever they want.Akshay Nathan [00:40:41]: Yeah. I have a funny anecdote about this. Like, recently gearing up to this launch, the team has been, really cooking on it for a couple months, and over that time, like there's so much conversation and chatter going on in Slack and Docs and elsewhere. And, one of the members of the team set up this, scheduled tasks, like automation to like look at everything that's going on and, like, come up with the best memes and then post it in one of our shared channels. And like, there are two cool things about this. Like, the first is, like, I think the models are, over time, like starting to become like funny.Swyx [00:41:13]: Funny. Nice.Akshay Nathan [00:41:13]: Whereas like, a year ago, like that was not at all the case. The second is, it was what you were saying, like they find things that in surprising ways that you may not have thought of and like create connections that you may not have thought of. And that really helps with like the meme generation because then you can see something that, genuinely surprises you and, is funny in that way. So yeah, that's like not like the most productive, use of this the technology, but it does it does uncover this, like this capability that's emerging, which is just like to find information that you otherwise would not know of.Launch Momentum and the 10 Million User MilestoneSwyx [00:41:43]: Talking about the launch, I think, I have pretty much said this is the most successful launch in a long time. I think even more successful personally than 5.0, and they're announcing ten million users. Does it feel different? You've been through a lot of launches.Akshay Nathan [00:41:58]: I think it feels like a culmination. Well, I think two things. One, it feels like a culmination, like I was mentioning earlier, like this like vision mission that we've been on for a long time. Like I said, we saw the magic of Codex internally, and then we're like extremely excited to bring this to many more people and to see it working, to like see us reach, the distribution goal, numbers that you mentioned, like I think that's like huge and super exciting. The flip side of that is like, there's so much more to do too. Like, that's also really exciting. Like, ChatGPT as a whole, like the this product that, everyone almost equates to AI and like loves, has hundreds of millions of users. And so like ten million is really cool, but like we need to get this to everyone. Like, we need everyone to feel this magic. And so that's the next step from here. But yeah, I think extremely pumped about how it's going so far and the opportunities.Swyx [00:42:46]: Awesome. I did want to also Because I've, I've, I've been tracking the number closely, it transitioned at some point from just Codex users to Codex plus ChatGPT Work, because they're same harness. The whole point is that you don't, you can't, count them separately. Do you have roughly a billion, ChatGPT users? Why did it just jump to one billion right away? Like, isn't that the default on ChatGPT or no?Codex, ChatGPT Work, and the Developer BrandAkshay Nathan [00:43:11]: We don't default you into ChatGPT Work if you're on ChatGPTSwyx [00:43:14]: If you're free. YeahAkshay Nathan [00:43:15]: It's also only available to paid users right now. And I think there's like a process of, educating users of what is the value of this product, having them try it, learning from their feedback, and making it better over time. But the goal is to, get as many of the people who love ChatGPT today to like feel the power of ChatGPT Work. But I think it'll be a journey.Swyx [00:43:36]: Yeah. And Codex will still be alive as a brand for the foreseeable future. And we'll just toggle between them as needed for UI stuff.Akshay Nathan [00:43:44]: Yeah, I think it's even stronger point than that. Like, I think we fully intend to like, treat developer. Like, developers have been, a core market for us for so long, and like there's, there's so much more that we can do to make Codex great specifically for, software development, and we'll continue to do that. This doesn't take away from that at all. If anything, it should increase the utility of something like Codex, because now you can move seamlessly between writing a diff to creating an artifact or, doing a search over your factor.Swyx [00:44:11]: I do wonder how much this terminology leaks to the non-technical user. Like, do they have to learn to say artifact if I want artifact? Or.Akshay Nathan [00:44:20]: It's funny, like we call it artifacts internally ‘cause that's what the teams call it.Swyx [00:44:23]: It's nice. Yeah.Akshay Nathan [00:44:23]: But like externally, like no one says that, no one calls it an artifact. But I think that people like often, like describe things, whatever they're used to, right? So if, ChatGPT Work is good at creating slides, they'll say ChatGPT Work is good at creating slides, and that's what we want.OpenClaw, Personal OS, and Persistent ComputersSwyx [00:44:38]: One big Another, it's July of twenty-six. One big thing that also happens in, for OpenAI was OpenClaw, and that's I think a lot of people's first time really maxing a agent for personal stuff, but also crossing over to work in essence same way. As far as I understand, OpenClaw is still independent, but did you go through your own OpenClaw moments? Were there any lessons you took from OpenClaw to Codex or back? Whatever.Akshay Nathan [00:45:06]: I think there's a lot of inspiration. I did go through my own OpenClaw moment. I,Swyx [00:45:10]: Yeah, tell the storyAkshay Nathan [00:45:10]: Me and my wife like set up an OpenClaw to like try to manage everything in our house. Not that there's like a ton, but it was like quite useful. We gave it a calendar. It started, creating events for us and stuff. At some point, the laptop that we were running on, it died and never got a chance to pick it back up. But there was a lot of inspiration there, like, in ChatGPT Work, in web and mobile, like you get access to this like persistent computer environment where, you can store files, and those files stay around between sessions. And the idea is to be able to enable use cases like this. one of the members of our team uses ChatGPT Work for what they used OpenClaw from before, and then feel like it has like completely transitioned, which is like, workout planning and like meal tracking. which again, it's like a work-related thing, right? It's like not work necessarily, but it's like in personal productivity space. But it has all the same primitives. So it has scheduled tasks. It has the ability to store files on a file system. It has the ability to like reference those things over time. And so you start to see the same types of use cases emerge, which has been really cool.Swyx [00:46:14]: Is there a point that ChatGPT Work completely replaces OpenClaw? they're independent, so.Akshay Nathan [00:46:20]: Yeah, I'm, I'm not close to it, so I can't speak to the OpenClaw roadmap, but I don't think so. I think that there's gonna be, there's always a need for like this like incredible, like open source technology that team has built. And I think that we can draw inspiration, in the product and, ChatGPT, I think many more people have like heard about and used ChatGPT than have used OpenClaw. And if we can take the magic from OpenClaw and bring it to them, I think that'll be a success. I think that like one thing on the ChatGPT Work side that we feel strongly about is that like the core experience is that you come to this product and you have a conversation, start a session, whatever you wanna call it, with this agent. And the magic of the product is that you can do anything in that moment. And we would like to create a product where you don't have to click a button or to go to a different place, whatever, and you can get whatever functionality exists in, your finances app or where or any other product like in this one place. And so that's the goal. It's like it we want an extensible system with plugins where you can connect to the tools that you need in order to be able to accomplish like a financial task, where you can, if you're doing like science work, like we have an ability to like extend the system in such that you can like write the tech and it performs well. There'll always be like products that we support that are best in class at those things, but we want as much of the magic as possible in that core experience.Swyx [00:47:45]: Yeah. Do you think that you can do everything you used to do with Wealthfront in ChatGPT Finance?Finance, Data Access, and Centralized ContextAkshay Nathan [00:47:50]: I tried it. like ChatGPT doesn't yet custody, cash and assets for me. So that part, no, not yet. But I, there was like a whole component of like retirement planning and, like financial planning and budgeting and stuff that, we were looking into when I was there. And like with the finances plugin, like that's all possible with ChatGPT today. So, I feel

From alert to root cause in one minute - how PagerDuty built autonomous incident response on Amazon Bedrock, and the future of triage and trust. Topics Include:PagerDuty's agents must perform during 2am outages — stakes are highSoftware shipping accelerated dramatically; production environments largely did notA 9:30pm slowdown traced to a race condition solved two years earlierThe fix was documented — but the context wasn't at handPagerDuty Advance ships four agents: SRE, Scribe, Shift, InsightsWhy four, not one? Focus and predictability in non-deterministic systemsSaurabh Shanbhag: Bedrock is far more than a model serviceZero data retention, PrivateLink, TLS — why enterprises pick BedrockFrontier models everywhere burns tokens; classify, route, distill, fine-tuneSRE agent triages alerts before you even join the callOne minute to root cause — context beat raw intelligenceHuman surfaces versus machine surfaces: MCP and CLI move fastest"The model eats the harness" — every upgrade invalidates foundational componentsFeeding agents everything failed; compartmentalised investigation threads work betterNew York Life's three stages of trust, and the seatbelt override that wasn't Participants:Tom Hogarty - Senior Director Product Management, PagerDutySaurabh Shanbhag – Sr Partner Solution Architect, Amazon Web Services See how Amazon Web Services gives you the freedom to migrate, innovate, and scale your software company at https://aws.amazon.com/isv/

In this episode, Kamille demonstrates the power and limitations of using Claude and the Model Context Protocol (MCP) to build an Airtable base from scratch. She walks through a live experiment where she prompts Claude to create a complex meal planner, including tables for recipes, ingredients, and a shopping list, as well as the necessary automations and interfaces. The team also dives into recent Airtable updates, including the new Slack integration and the ability to manage automations via MCP. They discuss the current limitations of AI-driven base building—such as the inability to edit existing interfaces or handle script steps—and compare the experiences of using Claude versus Airtable's Omni.

Scott Lechley started Lechley Associates with £10,000, a new baby at home, and six months of recruitment experience. Twenty four years later he is still the only person in the business, and he is on track for the best year he has ever had.Lechley Associates places the people who run the UK's biggest construction and infrastructure programmes. Framework directors, board level hires, the leaders behind HS2 scale rail and new hospital builds. Clients like Laing O'Rourke, Balfour Beatty and Hochtief. One retained search at a time.Six months into this year Scott had already cleared £300,000, with another £150,000 confirmed. He did it by doing something most recruiters never attempt: going fully retained, staying completely solo, and building an AI stack that means he now wakes up to a BD intelligence report, an automated outreach system, and a dashboard of ranked opportunities before most people have made their first coffee.He also did something almost no recruiter would admit to. This year he deliberately lost £40,000 in fees by talking a client out of a hire he did not believe in, and it does not cost him a minute of sleep.On this episode of The RAG Podcast, Scott breaks down exactly how the stack works, why 24 years of saying no to the wrong things is the real engine behind the numbers, and what a solo business actually makes possible when you stop trying to grow headcount.Scott is 54, having the best year of his career, and building a community for the next generation of construction professionals on the side. He is not slowing down.If you have ever wondered whether the pressure to build a team, hire more people and grow headcount is actually the only way, this episode is your answer.-------------------------------------------------------------------Episode Sponsor: AtlasAdmin is a massive waste of time. That's why there's Atlas, a CRM that actually understands context.Atlas captures everything you say, hear, read and write. Every interview, every client call, every LinkedIn message, email and WhatsApp, automatically. Not because you typed it up, but because Atlas was listening. Then it goes one step further and tells you the next action to take.So when you need to fill a role, People Search ranks your best candidates and tells you why, no digging required. That same memory turns your BD into a shortlist of exactly who to chase and why, so you win more clients. And when you want to see your pipeline, you just speak to your dashboards and Atlas builds the view for you in real time, tracking only what you care about.Whether you place permanent or contract, Atlas covers both. Its Contract Suite means you never chase a timesheet again, with live margin visibility across every placement. And with its new MCP and API, Atlas plugs straight into your LLMs and the rest of your stack, so the low-value admin that keeps you from billing gets done for you.This is not theory. Atlas customers are seeing 50% higher candidate response rates, a 35% increase in new clients won, 15+ hours saved every week, and monthly billings jumping by 85%. Some agencies are hitting 130% of their annual revenue target after building their business around Atlas.So if you're thinking you need to bolt AI onto your CRM, don't bother. Take a look at Atlas instead.Head to https://recruitwithatlas.com/therag/ to find out more.-------------------------------------------------------------------Episode Sponsor: HoxoEvery recruitment founder is investing in LinkedIn, but AI has turned templated posts and outreach into a commodity. When everyone sounds the same, the market stops listening. The recruiters winning now are the ones the market trusts.At Hoxo we help recruitment founders become the most influential name in their niche, using AI to multiply output while trust stays the product. Our clients turn their existing networks into £100K to £300K in new billings within months. Watch the free RAG listener training to see how: https://hubs.ly/Q03lBpYC0

How does an $8 Amazon product stay highly profitable? Today's guest reveals his wholesale strategy, European sourcing advantages, AI workflows, and resilient multichannel growth.   ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Helium10SeriousSellersPodcast?sub_confirmation=1 ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft   Can an Amazon seller build a profitable business around products priced under $10? In this episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley Sutton sits down with Ivan Komashinsky, the entrepreneur behind the U.S. distribution of Pedag Insoles and the Meltonian shoe-care brand. Ivan shares how he went from working at Microsoft to acquiring an established seven-figure e-commerce business—and eventually tripling its revenue. While Amazon remains Ivan's largest channel, his company has built a much broader operation through its own websites, independent retailers, regional distributors, Walmart, eBay, TikTok Shop, and Faire. Ivan explains how wholesale volume, strong supplier relationships, and European manufacturing allow Meltonian to maintain healthy margins on products selling for as little as $7.99. He also breaks down why managing inventory in-house makes sense for a business carrying thousands of SKUs across multiple sales channels. Ivan also reveals how his team uses Helium 10 tools such as Cerebro and Magnet to rank for valuable non-branded keywords and develop new products based on customer demand, competitor gaps, and search behavior. More recently, he has been using the Helium 10 MCP through Claude to investigate declining product sales, analyze trends, and explore profitability, traffic, conversion rates, keyword rankings, and advertising performance through natural-language conversations. From building authority on Reddit to getting started with wholesale through Faire, trade shows, and industry associations, Ivan offers a practical roadmap for creating a more resilient e-commerce business. His story shows that success does not always require expensive products or a business built entirely around Amazon. With the right sourcing, volume, distribution strategy, pricing policies, and willingness to adapt, even a traditional brand can unlock new growth opportunities. In episode 758 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley and Ivan discuss: 00:00 - Introduction 03:27 - Buying An Established Seven-Figure Online Business 06:22 - Growing Pedag And Acquiring Meltonian 07:33 - Building A Diversified Multichannel Sales Business 09:59 - Expanding A Traditional Brand Into Sneakers 11:05 - Finding New Products Through Market Demand 12:25 - Making An Eight-Dollar Product Highly Profitable 15:29 - European Sourcing And In-House Inventory Management 20:01 - Ranking For Valuable Non-Branded Amazon Keywords 22:26 - Using Helium 10 Tools And MCP 27:00 - Building Brand Authority Through Reddit 28:26 - Expanding Into Wholesale Through Faire 31:24 - Protecting Retail Margins With MAP Pricing 32:38 - Live Meltonian Sneaker-Cleaning Product Demonstration

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Segment 1 - Interview with O'Shea Bowens What do we really know about "AI Network Protocols"? Network security is about to get popular all over again. Generative AI caused a disruptive explosion across all of tech and every company's roadmap. The move from chatbots to AI agents doubled down on that disruption. Now agents need to talk to each other? Boom: we have MCP. A2A. Universal Commerce Protocol. General purpose and specialized protocols for agent communication. What does this look like from the network perspective, though? O'Shea Bowen joins us to answer this question, and he thinks the results are interesting enough to spark a resurgence of interest in network security tooling. Segment Resources: https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/75/documents/Cybersecurity/CSIMCPSECURITY.pdf?ver=bmgiSbNQLP6Z_GiWtRt6bg%3D%3D https://labs.cloudsecurityalliance.org/research/csa-research-note-mcp-security-crisis-20260504-csa-styled/ https://cyberone.security/blog/building-an-ai-security-strategy-without-stalling-business-growth Segment 2 - Interview with Jeremiah Grossman Jeremiah Grossman on why we've been measuring cyber risk wrong for 20 years After decades helping shape modern web security, and building companies that were ultimately acquired by Synopsys and Tenable, Jeremiah Grossman believes cybersecurity has arrived at an inflection point. His argument is a provocative one: for years, the industry has optimized around the wrong metrics. His latest venture, Root Evidence, aims to help security teams identify which risks are most likely to cause meaningful business loss, and he has the evidence - real-world breach data, cyber insurance claims, digital forensics intelligence, attack surface intelligence, and observed attacker behavior - to back it up. Find all of CyberRisk TV's Black Hat 2026 coverage at: https://www.securityweekly.com/blackhat Segment 3 - Weekly Enterprise News Finally, in the enterprise security news, We vibe check the AI model situation hidden devices in California cars causes concerns OpenAI's models escape sandboxes and breaches another AI company, totally by accident, they promise! Grok Build uploads all your files, totally by accident, they promise! Eclipsium debuts a firmware version of patch tuesday! HTTP gets a new method common problems with incident response Which one of the security weekly hosts would consider switching to a “dumb phone”? All that and more, on this episode of Enterprise Security Weekly. Visit https://www.securityweekly.com/esw for all the latest episodes! Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/esw-469

As chief technology officer at Casetext, Ryan Walker helped build CoCounsel, one of the first and most consequential generative AI legal assistants — a product so significant it led to the company's $650 million acquisition by Thomson Reuters. But Walker came away unsatisfied. Although the legal tech tools kept getting better, he believed, clients were seeing no benefit. Billing rates kept climbing and the efficiency gains never reached them. That spurred him to pivot from building products to forming a practice — General Legal, an AI-native law firm he cofounded and leads as CEO, built on the premise that the fastest path to transforming legal services is not retrofitting AI onto traditional firms, but rebuilding the law firm from the ground up on an AI-forward foundation. Just six months out of Y Combinator, the firm has some 400 clients, a newly launched venture financing practice, and, in what may be a first for a law firm, an MCP server that lets clients' AI agents engage the firm directly. In this episode of LawNext, Walker — not a lawyer but a PhD mathematician — tells host Bob Ambrogi why he believes AI can now automate 95% of routine legal work, how the management services organization structure allows an investable technology company to operate alongside a law firm, and why an AI-native firm paradoxically depends on hiring highly experienced lawyers rather than supercharging junior ones. He also explains the "second brain" approach that lets the firm's work product reflect each client's strategy, what earlier failed innovators like Atrium and Clearspire got wrong, and why he thinks the real reckoning will come when major clients simply refuse to pay for work AI can do. Walker cofounded the firm along with two other Casetext colleagues, Javed Qadrud-Din, who was head of AI at Casetext and is now General Legal's chief technology officer, and J.P. Mohler, who was an LLM engineer at Casetext and is now chief product officer and managing partner. Their ultimate ambition, Walker says, is to make General Legal the biggest provider of legal services in the world and, along the way, to break the scarcity model that keeps legal help out of reach for the people and companies who need it.   Thank You To Our Sponsors This episode of LawNext is generously made possible by our sponsors. We appreciate their support and hope you will check them out. Paradigm, home to the practice management platforms PracticePanther, Bill4Time, MerusCase and LollyLaw; the e-payments platform Headnote; and the legal accounting software TrustBooks. Briefpoint, eliminating routine discovery response and request drafting tasks so you can focus on drafting what matters (or just make it home for dinner). CosmoLex, helping law firms manage their entire practice in one platform, from intake to payment. Try it free. Ajax, the AI timekeeper lawyers want to use.   If you enjoy listening to LawNext, please leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts.  

Segment 1 - Interview with O'Shea Bowens What do we really know about "AI Network Protocols"? Network security is about to get popular all over again. Generative AI caused a disruptive explosion across all of tech and every company's roadmap. The move from chatbots to AI agents doubled down on that disruption. Now agents need to talk to each other? Boom: we have MCP. A2A. Universal Commerce Protocol. General purpose and specialized protocols for agent communication. What does this look like from the network perspective, though? O'Shea Bowen joins us to answer this question, and he thinks the results are interesting enough to spark a resurgence of interest in network security tooling. Segment Resources: https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/75/documents/Cybersecurity/CSIMCPSECURITY.pdf?ver=bmgiSbNQLP6Z_GiWtRt6bg%3D%3D https://labs.cloudsecurityalliance.org/research/csa-research-note-mcp-security-crisis-20260504-csa-styled/ https://cyberone.security/blog/building-an-ai-security-strategy-without-stalling-business-growth Segment 2 - Interview with Jeremiah Grossman Jeremiah Grossman on why we've been measuring cyber risk wrong for 20 years After decades helping shape modern web security, and building companies that were ultimately acquired by Synopsys and Tenable, Jeremiah Grossman believes cybersecurity has arrived at an inflection point. His argument is a provocative one: for years, the industry has optimized around the wrong metrics. His latest venture, Root Evidence, aims to help security teams identify which risks are most likely to cause meaningful business loss, and he has the evidence - real-world breach data, cyber insurance claims, digital forensics intelligence, attack surface intelligence, and observed attacker behavior - to back it up. Find all of CyberRisk TV's Black Hat 2026 coverage at: https://www.securityweekly.com/blackhat Segment 3 - Weekly Enterprise News Finally, in the enterprise security news, We vibe check the AI model situation hidden devices in California cars causes concerns OpenAI's models escape sandboxes and breaches another AI company, totally by accident, they promise! Grok Build uploads all your files, totally by accident, they promise! Eclipsium debuts a firmware version of patch tuesday! HTTP gets a new method common problems with incident response Which one of the security weekly hosts would consider switching to a "dumb phone"? All that and more, on this episode of Enterprise Security Weekly. Visit https://www.securityweekly.com/esw for all the latest episodes! Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/esw-469

Segment 1 - Interview with O'Shea Bowens What do we really know about "AI Network Protocols"? Network security is about to get popular all over again. Generative AI caused a disruptive explosion across all of tech and every company's roadmap. The move from chatbots to AI agents doubled down on that disruption. Now agents need to talk to each other? Boom: we have MCP. A2A. Universal Commerce Protocol. General purpose and specialized protocols for agent communication. What does this look like from the network perspective, though? O'Shea Bowen joins us to answer this question, and he thinks the results are interesting enough to spark a resurgence of interest in network security tooling. Segment Resources: https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/75/documents/Cybersecurity/CSIMCPSECURITY.pdf?ver=bmgiSbNQLP6Z_GiWtRt6bg%3D%3D https://labs.cloudsecurityalliance.org/research/csa-research-note-mcp-security-crisis-20260504-csa-styled/ https://cyberone.security/blog/building-an-ai-security-strategy-without-stalling-business-growth Segment 2 - Interview with Jeremiah Grossman Jeremiah Grossman on why we've been measuring cyber risk wrong for 20 years After decades helping shape modern web security, and building companies that were ultimately acquired by Synopsys and Tenable, Jeremiah Grossman believes cybersecurity has arrived at an inflection point. His argument is a provocative one: for years, the industry has optimized around the wrong metrics. His latest venture, Root Evidence, aims to help security teams identify which risks are most likely to cause meaningful business loss, and he has the evidence - real-world breach data, cyber insurance claims, digital forensics intelligence, attack surface intelligence, and observed attacker behavior - to back it up. Find all of CyberRisk TV's Black Hat 2026 coverage at: https://www.securityweekly.com/blackhat Segment 3 - Weekly Enterprise News Finally, in the enterprise security news, We vibe check the AI model situation hidden devices in California cars causes concerns OpenAI's models escape sandboxes and breaches another AI company, totally by accident, they promise! Grok Build uploads all your files, totally by accident, they promise! Eclipsium debuts a firmware version of patch tuesday! HTTP gets a new method common problems with incident response Which one of the security weekly hosts would consider switching to a "dumb phone"? All that and more, on this episode of Enterprise Security Weekly. Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/esw-469

David Soria Parra is an Engineering Lead at Anthropic and one of the core maintainers of the Model Context Protocol (MCP). We explore the biggest evolution of the protocol since its launch, and why MCP is becoming the foundation for the next generation of AI agents.We discuss why MCP is moving toward stateless communication, what developers misunderstand about state, sessions, and transport layers, and how lessons from real-world deployments at massive scale have shaped the protocol's future. We also dive into MCP v2, SDK migrations, protocol design, extension architecture, governance, developer experience, and how Anthropic thinks about balancing simplicity with long-term flexibility.Along the way, we explore progressive disclosure, tool search, programmatic tool calling, context bloat, forward compatibility, long-running AI tasks, protocol evolution, open-source governance, observability, and why the future of AI infrastructure will depend on designing protocols that can evolve without breaking the ecosystem.Timestamps:[00:00] Introduction[01:59] Why MCP Had to Become Stateless[04:28] The Tradeoffs of Stateless Design[06:13] What We Learned About Agent State[08:04] Sessions, Models & Implicit State[09:33] Migrating to MCP v2[12:19] Lessons from HTTP & Open Source Standards[18:16] Shipping Fast Without Breaking Everything[20:35] The Future Complexity of MCP[22:44] Core Features vs Extensions[26:47] Progressive Disclosure Explained[28:16] Solving Context Bloat[30:50] Why Tool Search Beats Progressive Disclosure[32:10] The Biggest MCP Anti-Pattern[34:25] Designing for Forward Compatibility[38:41] Why "Tasks" Matter[40:53] JSON, Tokens & Better Tool Calling[44:44] Observability & Tracing AI Agents[47:34] Will MCP Ever Be Finished?[50:22] What's Next for MCP

Steve puts BentoFit in the loop, using agentic coding to add themes and straighten out the app's Swift package structure. The Trio digs into Mike Zornek's three-year AI-coding journey, the skills and harnesses shaping Steve's workflow, and why human judgment still matters when the robot says it is done. Even with better models in the driver's seat, Xcode always finds a way to keep things interesting.## Chapters00:00 Introductions 01:10 Side Projects & the AI Moment 07:38 Agentic Coding Tools & Harnesses 16:22 AI Workflows & Decision Fatigue 28:13 Software Factories & Loop Engineering 38:19 Building BentoFit with AI 48:15 Where AI Coding Breaks Down 55:01 IRL Meetup & Signoff 56:27 Tag ## Show Notes- Steve introduces BentoFit, a HealthKit dashboard getting a new round of AI-assisted development.- A good harness can matter as much as the model because it keeps tools, feedback, and code changes moving in a loop.- Steve prefers Codex and OpenCode outside Xcode, then reaches back into Xcode through its MCP tools for builds, tests, and Simulator.- Mike Zornek's three-year AI-coding notes spark a conversation about thoughtful adoption instead of blindly chasing every new workflow.- Matt Pocock's skills help turn fuzzy ideas into explicit decisions, shared terminology, specifications, and tickets.- Answering dozens of agent questions can sharpen a design, but it also trades coding flow for relentless decision fatigue.- Steve's practical loop has an agent implement the spec, review its own work, fix what it finds, run the tests, and stop for human verification.- The Trio remains skeptical of software factories when a project cannot be fully specified or automatically checked.- For BentoFit, agents built theme infrastructure and reorganized local Swift packages in a few hours instead of several evenings.- Widgets, watchOS targets, worktrees, and Xcode project files still invite expensive loops, crashes, and the occasional hard reset.## Links**BentoFit**Website: https://bentofit.app**AI Coding**Mike Zornek, "Three Years Coding with AI": https://mikezornek.com/posts/2026/7/three-years-coding-with-ai/Matt Pocock's Skills: https://github.com/mattpocock/skills/tree/main**Upcoming PhillyCocoa Event**Beyond the Simulator: Perspectives on Modern App Development: https://luma.com/mwcqd1clThursday, August 13, 5:45 PM - 8:00 PM2300 Chestnut St, Philadelphia, PA**PhillyCocoa:** https://phillycocoa.orgIntro music: "When I Hit the Floor", © 2021 Lorne Behrman. Used with permission of the artist.

Segment 1 - Interview with O'Shea Bowens What do we really know about "AI Network Protocols"? Network security is about to get popular all over again. Generative AI caused a disruptive explosion across all of tech and every company's roadmap. The move from chatbots to AI agents doubled down on that disruption. Now agents need to talk to each other? Boom: we have MCP. A2A. Universal Commerce Protocol. General purpose and specialized protocols for agent communication. What does this look like from the network perspective, though? O'Shea Bowen joins us to answer this question, and he thinks the results are interesting enough to spark a resurgence of interest in network security tooling. Segment Resources: https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/75/documents/Cybersecurity/CSIMCPSECURITY.pdf?ver=bmgiSbNQLP6Z_GiWtRt6bg%3D%3D https://labs.cloudsecurityalliance.org/research/csa-research-note-mcp-security-crisis-20260504-csa-styled/ https://cyberone.security/blog/building-an-ai-security-strategy-without-stalling-business-growth Segment 2 - Interview with Jeremiah Grossman Jeremiah Grossman on why we've been measuring cyber risk wrong for 20 years After decades helping shape modern web security, and building companies that were ultimately acquired by Synopsys and Tenable, Jeremiah Grossman believes cybersecurity has arrived at an inflection point. His argument is a provocative one: for years, the industry has optimized around the wrong metrics. His latest venture, Root Evidence, aims to help security teams identify which risks are most likely to cause meaningful business loss, and he has the evidence - real-world breach data, cyber insurance claims, digital forensics intelligence, attack surface intelligence, and observed attacker behavior - to back it up. Find all of CyberRisk TV's Black Hat 2026 coverage at: https://www.securityweekly.com/blackhat Segment 3 - Weekly Enterprise News Finally, in the enterprise security news, We vibe check the AI model situation hidden devices in California cars causes concerns OpenAI's models escape sandboxes and breaches another AI company, totally by accident, they promise! Grok Build uploads all your files, totally by accident, they promise! Eclipsium debuts a firmware version of patch tuesday! HTTP gets a new method common problems with incident response Which one of the security weekly hosts would consider switching to a "dumb phone"? All that and more, on this episode of Enterprise Security Weekly. Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/esw-469

Dianne Penn is Head of Product for Anthropic's AI Research and Labs teams. She joined in 2023 as Anthropic's first technical product manager, when the entire product team was five engineers, and has since helped ship every model from Claude 2 through Fable, and helped incubate Claude Code, MCP, Skills, computer use, tool use, and reasoning. Before Anthropic, she helped build Alexa's AI at Amazon and, before that, traded high-yield bonds at JP Morgan Chase.In our in-depth conversation, we discuss:1. What Anthropic's early days were like2. The inflection points that turned Anthropic from an underdog into the fastest-growing company in history3. How exactly Claude got so good at coding4. The eval-driven development loop her team is pioneering5. How to find joy in AI when everything is moving this fast6. Why Claude's willingness to push back is key to its success7. Where human judgment remains irreplaceable—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Make your app enterprise-ready, with SSO, SCIM, RBAC, and moreMercury—Radically different banking, now with Command—Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-first-technical-pm-on—Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0—Where to find Dianne Penn:• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dianne-na-penn—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction(02:31) Early Anthropic days(08:55) Big milestones(13:50) Inside the exponential(20:02) Token maxing(23:30) Anthropic Labs and the incubation model(27:30) How the research role works(31:35) How to become a top researcher(35:18) Frontier model safeguards(39:38) Hiring in the AI era(44:16) Building an eval set(47:48) Evals vs PRDs(49:55) The importance of hands-on leadership(52:46) Finding joy in AI(58:10) How Dianne uses Claude(01:01:05) Avoiding overreliance on AI(01:03:50) The constitution that makes Claude better(01:07:11) AI writing and verification(01:11:40) Where human brains will continue to be valuable(01:14:10) Navigating AI with kids(01:16:26) Alignment, the future of the PM role, and burnout(01:21:54) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com• Golden Gate Claude: https://www.anthropic.com/news/golden-gate-claude• Dario Amodei's website: https://darioamodei.com• Scaling Laws and Interpretability of Learning from Repeated Data: https://www.anthropic.com/research/scaling-laws-and-interpretability-of-learning-from-repeated-data• Tokenmaxxing: How Top Builders Use AI To Do The Work Of 400 Engineers: https://www.ycombinator.com/library/Pa-tokenmaxxing-how-top-builders-use-ai-to-do-the-work-of-400-engineers• Garry Tan on X: https://x.com/garrytan• Anthropic co-founder on quitting OpenAI, AGI predictions, $100M talent wars, 20% unemployment, and the nightmare scenarios keeping him up at night | Ben Mann: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropic-co-founder-benjamin-mann• Anthropic's CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Introducing Labs: https://www.anthropic.com/news/introducing-anthropic-labs• Louis CK | about airplane Wi Fi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me4BZBsHwZs• What happens after coding is solved? | Fiona Fung (Manager of the Claude Code and Cowork Teams): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-the-most-ai-pilled-engineering• The Anthropic Hive Mind: https://steve-yegge.medium.com/the-anthropic-hive-mind-d01f768f3d7b• How to build a company that withstands any era | Eric Ries, Lean Startup author: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-build-a-company-that-withstands• Fallout on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CN4GGGQ2• Fallout (video game): https://fallout.bethesda.net• Claude Tag: https://www.anthropic.com/news/introducing-claude-tag—Recommended books:• Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0071771328• How to Raise an Adult: Break Free of the Overparenting Trap and Prepare Your Kid for Success: https://www.amazon.com/How-Raise-Adult-Overparenting-Prepare/dp/1627791779• Incorruptible: Why Good Companies Go Bad... and How Great Companies Stay Great: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FWZZBPZB—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

【PR：Surfshark】プロモリンク https://surfshark.com/yurucom にアクセスするか、チェックアウト時にプロモコード yurucom を使用すると、Surfshark VPN が4か月分追加されます！30日間の返金保証付き！ぜひご利用ください！実は「すごい説明書」だった？MCPの仕組みを深掘ります。AIにも人間と同じ苦労があり、進化の歴史がありました。【目次】0:00 イケてる技術「MCP」2:15 なぜ新技術が必要だったのか？12:18 MCPはAIのための予備校19:32 AIの認知特性に合わせた道具がMCP22:08 MCPも社会に合わせて進化している26:13 SurfsharkとMCPはまったく同じ【参考文献】◯Anthropic「Introducing the Model Context Protocol」（ https://www.anthropic.com/news/model-context-protocol ）→MCPの概要発表◯modelcontextprotocol.io「Architecture overview」（ https://modelcontextprotocol.io/docs/learn/architecture ）→MCPが「説明書（一覧取得）＋ 実行 ＋ 認証」を一連のやり取りとして含む設計について。◯modelcontextprotocol.io「Tools」（ https://modelcontextprotocol.io/specification/2025-11-25/server/tools ）→MCPのツール定義は構造化された形で必ず同じ書式で返ってくる。◯IBM「What Is an API (Application Programming Interface)?」（ https://www.ibm.com/think/topics/api ）→APIについてはこちら。◯Stripe.js Reference「The Elements object」（ https://docs.stripe.com/js/elements_object ）→APIの仕様書が「分厚い辞書みたい」の実例（50以上の支払い方法タイプ・多階層オプション）。◯Notion Blog「Notion's hosted MCP server: an inside look」（ https://www.notion.com/blog/notions-hosted-mcp-server-an-inside-look ）→Notion MCPの開発経緯について。◯Claude Help Center「Use Google Workspace connectors」（ https://support.claude.com/en/articles/10166901-use-google-workspace-connectors ）→Anthropic公式のGmailコネクタについて。◯Anthropic Engineering「Introducing advanced tool use on the Claude Developer Platform」（ https://www.anthropic.com/engineering/advanced-tool-use ）→Tool Searchについて。◯Claude API Docs「Tool search tool」（ https://platform.claude.com/docs/en/agents-and-tools/tool-use/tool-search-tool ）→Tool Searchの動作仕様について。【サポーターコミュニティへの加入はこちらから！】⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://yurugengo.com/support⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠【親チャンネル：ゆる言語学ラジオ】⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@yurugengo⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠【実店舗プロジェクト：ゆる学徒カフェ】⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@yurugakuto⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠【おたよりフォーム】⁠https://forms.gle/BLEZpLcdEPmoZTH4A⁠※皆様からのおたよりをお待ちしています！【お仕事依頼はこちら！】info@pedantic.jp【堀元見プロフィール】慶應義塾大学理工学部卒。専攻は情報工学。理屈っぽいコンテンツを作り散らかすことで生計を立てている。Twitter→⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/kenhori2⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠noteマガジン→⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://note.com/kenhori2/m/m125fc4524aca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠個人YouTube→⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@kenHorimoto⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠【水野太貴プロフィール】1995年生まれ。愛知県出身。名古屋大学文学部卒。専攻は言語学。本業は雑誌編集者。著書に『会話の0.2秒を言語学する 』（新潮社）などがある。Podcast「神保町で会いましょう」のパーソナリティも務める。Twitter→⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/yuru_mizuno⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠神保町で会いましょう→⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/6cYkvDO0HnJKLPgDBGUjjS

Strategic Technology Consultation Services This episode of The Modern .NET Show is supported, in part, by RJJ Software's Strategic Technology Consultation Services. If you're an SME (Small to Medium Enterprise) leader wondering why your technology investments aren't delivering, or you're facing critical decisions about AI, modernization, or team productivity, let's talk. Show Notes "In the agentic world that makes a lot of people really uncomfortable because what ends up happening is the agent has it, the agent has its own ID and then interacts with your data database."— Jerry Nixon Hey everyone, and welcome back to The Modern .NET Show; the premier .NET podcast, focusing entirely on the knowledge, tools, and frameworks that all .NET developers should have in their toolbox. I'm your host Jamie Taylor, bringing you conversations with the brightest minds in the .NET ecosystem. Today, Jerry Nixon returned to the show to talk about SQL MCP Server, something of a new product _and_ the evolution of Data API Builder; which we talked to Jerry about back in episode three of this season (there'll be a link in the show notes). Jerry does a much better job of introducing it than I can, but suffice it to say that SQL MCP Server is an MCP Server which abstracts away intracting with a SQL database... of almost any flavour. SQL Server, CosmosDB, Postgres, you name it. "I mean there is nothing better for any agent than saying "new session." That is how you like create better answers all the time. You might feel like you have this session, you've been training it so long and you've told it so much, it has so much context that now when you ask it, it'll finally have the answer that you're looking for."— Jerry Nixon Along the way, Jerry shared a lot of solid gold nuggets of advice about MCP servers, best practices for interacting with agents and models, and even context management. And, of course, we talk about how simple is almost always the best solution (and how SQL MCP Server might be one of the ways for you to achieve that). Before we jump in, a quick reminder: if The Modern .NET Show has become part of your learning journey, please consider supporting us through Patreon or Buy Me A Coffee. Every contribution helps us continue bringing you these in-depth conversations with industry experts. You'll find all the links in the show notes. So let's sit back, open up a terminal, type in `dotnet new podcast` and we'll dive into the core of Modern .NET. Full Show Notes The full show notes, including links to some of the things we discussed and a full transcription of this episode, can be found at: https://dotnetcore.show/season-8/giving-ai-agents-safe-access-to-your-data-sql-mcp-server-with-jerry-nixon/ Useful Links: Data API Builder & SQL MCP Serverdocumentation Data API Builder on GitHub Book time with Jerry to discuss SQL MCP an your projects Agentic Design Patterns by Antonia Gulli Supporting the show: Leave a rating or review Buy the show a coffee Become a patron Getting in Touch: Via the contact page Joining the Discord Remember to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, or wherever you find your podcasts, this will help the show's audience grow. Or you can just share the show with a friend. And don't forget to reach out via our Contact page. We're very interested in your opinion of the show, so please get in touch. You can support the show by making a monthly donation on the show's Patreon page at: https://www.patreon.com/TheDotNetCorePodcast. Music created by Mono Memory Music, licensed to RJJ Software for use in The Modern .NET Show. Editing and post-production services for this episode were provided by MB Podcast Services.

In today's Cloud Wars Minute, I explain how Salesforce's latest MCP announcement advances Marc Benioff's vision for AI-first enterprise collaboration. Highlights 00:03 — Salesforce has announced the introduction of new MCP servers that connect Slack to Salesforce CRM, Tableau, Data 360, and third-party AI tools. Now, these new servers have enhanced Slackbot, which is Slack's personal AI agent, enabling it to serve as a conversational interface for tasks across the Salesforce ecosystem. 00:29 — The headline for the press release about this announcement really summarizes it very well: "Slackbot can now do anything Salesforce can — just ask." Salesforce users can now view and update Salesforce records, run automations, access custom data without leaving Slack, and just using natural language. Users can query Tableau dashboards and analytics. 00:55 — Data 360 integration now enables Slackbot to access customer data for better responses and context-aware responses. Slackbot can now orchestrate work across multiple AI agents and enterprise apps, including partners like Anthropic, Atlassian, DocuSign, and Zapier. And the whole thing can be centrally managed by admins with built-in authentication and security. 01:22 — These Salesforce-hosted MCP servers are now generally available for all Enterprise Edition organizations and above. So what's the vision here? Well, Kris Billmaier, EVP and GM of Sales Cloud, explained, "Salesforce Sales Cloud in Slack is the future of how revenue teams work," he said. 01:55 — "AI is changing what it means to sell, and putting Salesforce intelligence and data inside Slack, where sellers already live, means teams stop chasing context and start driving growth. That shift is happening now, and we're right at the center of it." Ultimately, Salesforce is now positioning Slack as the primary workspace for AI-powered collaboration. Visit Cloud Wars for more.

According to Gartner, at least 30% of generative AI projects will be abandoned after proof of concept due to escalating costs, poor data quality, or unclear business value. There are a lot of factors working against them, and too often failure happens when teams are right in the middle of building. They’ve spent significant time, money, IT capacity on something that may very well have been doomed from the start. So how do you know if something is actually worth building with AI or if you should just focus on buying instead? Riley Rogers: Hi, and welcome to the Win/Win Podcast. I’m your host, Riley Rogers. Join us as we dive into changing trends in the workplace and how to navigate them successfully. Here to discuss this topic is Keith Weaver, Senior Director of Global IT and Enterprise Applications at Highspot. Thanks so much for joining us today, Keith. I’d love if you could just kick us off by telling us a little bit about yourself, your background, and your role. Keith Weaver: I have been leading our global IT team at Highspot. I’ve been in IT for, I think, getting close to 20 years now, just overseeing all kinds of different systems and specialties within those systems. Our IT team at Highspot is IT operations, making sure everyone has devices, equipment, all of that globally. We’re now in seven countries. As well as system engineering, making sure everyone has the right tools, that they’re optimized for the business. And then we have specific teams in IT that specialize in financial systems and HR systems. In the world of AI, it’s a whole new world and it’s a lot of fun. RR: So 20 years in IT, you’ve kind of run the gamut. But it sounds like the last two and a half years have crammed almost 20 years’ worth of change into a very short window. When we were planning for this episode, you mentioned to me that you read four or five newsletters every morning just to keep up with the pace of innovation. Can you walk us through why you’re spending so much time learning and how IT has had to evolve to keep up with this pace of development? KW: What I’ve seen is mostly it’s the same things that we’ve done, except it’s done at a much faster pace. It is kind of an unheard of pace that AI is moving. Every day, the reason I read five different newsletters is because there are so many new things getting released, whether it’s a new model or a new tool, and then there are things within the tools that are getting released. Trying to understand all those things, the new protocols that are getting released, the new ways people are building or executing on AI, or the new things people are learning, is just really critical. And all of that is at a speed that we’re just not accustomed to. So I think that the objective of what an IT team does to continue to keep the business unlocked, able to do their best work with the technology and tools while making it secure and scalable, those things are the same. It’s just the speed now that it’s running, and the speed from the business. The business is moving so fast, and their expectation is that IT continues to deliver at that pace. I’ll give you some examples. I get probably, me personally, not my team, but me personally, I probably get 20 to 50 requests for new connections, new skills, new tools every week. That’s in Slack, in Jira. It’s just nonstop, and that’s just unheard of before AI. It just didn’t happen. It would be like, “Oh, we have this big initiative, and we’re gonna do this thing.” And now it’s just like, “Can I have this? Can I have that?” And all good things, it’s just how do we do that, and how do we keep up? RR: So when you have 20 to 50 requests hitting your desk every week, it can probably start to feel a little overwhelming. And I wonder if the folks who are sending these requests your way maybe don’t know the considerations behind every single one of these ideas. I’d love if you could give us a view of what you’re seeing across the industry as both technical and non-technical teams are all noodling on the idea of how to build with AI, how to buy AI tools, how to bring them all together and create a combination that actually works. What are you seeing? KW: Well, I think if you think back a year to a year and a half ago, mostly people were buying tools. Building was… It’s so funny ’cause we’re talking about a year ago or a year and a half ago, but building was much harder. And really with Claude, the Opus class models that came out, it really started unlocking the ability for everyone to start building. And so since then, the conversation shifted from, “Yeah, we can go buy this tool,” to “We can build this internally.” And there’s a lot of excitement to build because building’s fun. The pendulum just swings often on these things, and so we’re kind of in that wave where everyone’s super excited about building something. And I think we’ll end up in a place that is more normalized, where we’re building some, we’re buying some. We’re doing a hybrid approach. I think that is where we’ll end up. It’s just, it has swung really far to, “Look, we can just go build that thing.” RR: So it sounds like we’re kind of in the early phase of a cycle that you’ve seen time and time again, where surrounded by enthusiasm, but maybe we don’t have much direction. And like you said, building is fun, so I imagine you probably hear a lot of, “Hey, look what I built,” or, “Why can’t we just build this?” So when something like that lands in your inbox, what’s the first thing that goes through your mind? KW: If it’s, “Look what I built,” there’s lots of questions, like how is it being deployed? What’s the next step with this? Who’s gonna own it? How is this actually out in the world, and how are we gonna make sure that it’s as scalable and secure? If it’s a conversation, I would say this is more so where we hear, “We want to build this thing,” or, “We can just go build this thing. Why would we buy this?” I think the thing that I would ask is, what is the long-term path for this? Because deploying is just the first step. It’s the iteration. It’s the test. It’s continuing to deploy it. It’s maintaining it. It’s supporting it. It’s the full life cycle of any software project. What resources are gonna do that? How are we going to maintain this and support this long term? Those are usually the questions that I start asking. RR: And you’re quite equipped to speak to the build side of the equation because you’ve done it. You’ve tackled the planning, the deployment, the maintenance, the ongoing support, the full life cycle, like you said, of a software project. And you’ve done it with AI. I’d love if you could walk us through your first test case. Tell us a little bit about what you were thinking going in, and what you learned along the way about what works, what doesn’t, and what was surprisingly difficult. KW: Yeah. So we built an IT AI agent and an HR agent, and we did that with a cross-collaborative team. I think we started it last fall and then deployed it in February or March this year. And I would say the main objective there was not that these are the tools that are gonna change the way we function. The main objective was a learning. It was an R&D investment. So we knew that we had to, as an IT team, be able to help the business deploy these agents, and we found some use cases that we could. The IT one we can own in-house. The HR one, we already collaborate with them very closely on a number of things. So it felt like a good first step for us to dip our toes, learn a lot about how to build these, what works, what doesn’t. And these agents are more than just chatbots. They really were taking actions in tools like Jira and Workday, Highspot itself. And we built them using the Workato platform, and what we learned through it is it was actually really exciting and really easy to get to a place where this mostly works, and this is pretty, it feels like this could be really powerful. That was, like, the first three weeks. The rest of the time was, “Oh, gosh, how are we going to get this thing so that it doesn’t give somebody some really poor answer from a security standpoint or an HR answer that needs to be rooted in truth?” And then how can we make sure that it repeatedly does these actions no matter what people prompt, that it’s really controlled? I often described it to my team like it was training a four-year-old. I have four kids and they’re all older now, but it was like I was back in those toddler stages. Like, “Why’d you decide to do that? That was a bad decision. Stop.” And trying to train it and get it to that point, it just took a massive amount of time. And since we’ve launched it, it’s a lot of resources to read the conversation, understand what was asked, understand what it did and where it went wrong, then refining it, then retesting it, then redeploying it. It’s a cycle. It’s this continual cycle, and that takes a lot more resources and time than I originally thought it would. RR: Ballpark, what did that investment look like? How long did it take you to build? How many queries did you have to manually validate before you trusted the thing? And how much are you still investing today to keep it alive? KW: In the beginning, you just start giving it manual prompts and testing it to see what it does. Then you produce your test cases, and you manually go through those test cases, and every time you make some major changes, you go through those test cases, make sure that it’s still hitting. Because just changing one little thing, for example, if you take a tool and change the prompt or the description of that tool, you actually have to do regression testing on all the things that someone could prompt, because just changing that one little description, the agentic reasoning could choose to use that tool or not use that tool at the wrong places. So it’s really important to do this regression testing. Then we started going through how do we automate some of this testing, and we were able to do some of that. But I think the biggest takeaway is with software, traditional software, you do regression testing, but if you change this bit of code, really that’s what you have to worry about, anything within that bit of code, not the whole stack, not the whole thing. This was, I think, a really big takeaway. We would make a small change, and something unrelated, completely unrelated, would start acting weird. And then you have model changes. You’re like, “Oh, I want to move to the latest model.” Well, that latest model now, the reasoning’s different, how it picks up tools might be different, and so that also has been a challenge. I think over time, especially as the tools evolve, the automated testing will get easier. We can have Claude, for example, go through and give it a bunch of questions, evaluate the responses. But you’ve got to build that too. That’s all something you’ve got to build in order to maintain this thing. RR: Now, you said this project was conceived last fall, launched, not necessarily finalized, ’cause it’s never really finalized, but launched publicly in the February March timeframe. So now we’re almost a year out from initial conception, couple months out from launch. Given your point about things changing so much in the last year and a half, now knowing what the landscape looks like, would you have built differently or would you have built at all? KW: It’s a great question. I think if I go back to my objective that I needed to learn and I needed my team to learn how to deploy these things and the challenges of it, I wouldn’t change what we’ve done, and they’re still deployed in production right now, although we are not spending a massive amount of time making them better. Would I change what I’ve done? No, but that’s because of where my objective was. My objective wasn’t to massively change the HR process or the IT process. It was to learn. And I think that given the right investment, we could move them further along. However, I do not believe that building something that every business has to do, IT and HR stuff, that… all those questions that we get, both of those teams get, are the same across most organizations. Most of the things employees need to do in these functions are the same across all organizations. So I don’t know that I would double down and want to go build the agentic functionality behind IT and HR. What I would want to do is look at our specific processes, things that are unique about our business, not only where we have the information, but what tools we use, and then maybe specific processes of how we do something, and figure out how do I build that piece and tie it into something that’s delivered. And there are so many, just talking about the IT space, there are so many systems right now that have the agentic functionality and give you the ability to tie in all your different tools. So I would probably try to leverage those rather than just building everything from the ground up. RR: As an aside, I will say I have used both the IT and the HR agents. They’re quite cool. The HR one talked me through my vision insurance at 8:00 PM on a Saturday, so thank you for that. Very helpful. So you mentioned that this was something that you and the team invested in as a learning, so you could understand what the process of building an agentic workflow looked like, an agentic tool looked like. So having now seen what it looks like, what must be invested in order to do this successfully, how do you draw the line between what you can build, what you should build, and what you’re better off just buying? KW: I think you should build the things that are unique to your business. You could think about this as your moat, but I think it goes beyond that. It’s where your processes or the way you handle something is very unique. In those cases, it may make sense to build something from scratch. But if it’s not unique to your business, like go back to the HR and IT, most of it’s just not unique. And so in most cases, when you don’t have something unique, then it likely makes sense to buy it, because you get the power of the organization that has built that tool behind it, pushing that tool forward much faster than you’re ever going to push it forward, ’cause we’re just not gonna hire that many engineers to do it. And so if there’s an IT tool out there that is bringing all that agentic functionality to the forefront, then why would I not leverage that, as long as I believe in the company, they have a track record to deliver, and they have the ability to build on top of it for some unique IT process that I have or some deterministic termination workflow that I want to execute. If I can do that, then I would say let me build what’s unique and tie it into something where the base or the product is being delivered. RR: Outside of that uniqueness component, if you’re a GTM leader trying to make that call, what other questions would you be thinking about and asking yourself? KW: I think I would just go back to that uniqueness test. Is this unique to my business? Is this a unique sales motion, a unique thing that we do here because of what we’re selling or how we’re selling that I can’t expect a vendor to build this or be able to deliver it? Or is it roughly the same thing everyone else is doing, the same problem everyone else is trying to solve? There are unique components, ’cause there are always unique components to this, but those unique components can be built alongside or included within that tool. And here’s the wonderful thing, if you just take AI or Claude, for example, we’re using Claude internally, you have a tool that has all the MCP capabilities like Highspot, like Salesforce, and you have some unique process with some maybe even proprietary tool that you want to do. Well, the great thing is you can bring that all into Claude. You can use Workato or build a skill within Claude and use that, whatever you’re building for that unique process, that unique system, and tie it in with those other tools that already are giving you a lot of functionality, and now you’ve expanded what you already had, and you’re spending your time in that uniqueness layer. What’s unique to us? That, to me, there’s value in that, to build there, because you’re not gonna get another organization to spend the time, money, or energy building on that. RR: So it sounds like it kind of comes down to a basic cost benefit call. Is the upfront investment and ongoing maintenance worth what that unique build will actually deliver? KW: When you’re doing the cost analysis, you can’t look at just what it costs to build. You have to look at the full life cycle. An analogy for you is, if you go back, maybe 20 years when SaaS really became a big thing, you had Salesforce kind of leading the charge. In all of the sales cycles, they would say, “You no longer need servers, and you no longer need admins.” The business manages this themselves, and everyone was super excited. Oh, this is gonna, the ROI’s gonna be so great on this. The business is gonna own this. We can move really quickly because we can change workflows and do this stuff and own it all internally. We don’t need an IT team to manage servers, et cetera. And everyone got really excited about this, and I remember all those years ago being like, “Guys, I don’t know if that’s really gonna be true.” So now you fast-forward, and it hasn’t been 20 years. For the last 15 years, we’ve been actually hiring system admins like crazy. We have Salesforce admins, NetSuite admins, Workday admins, Jira admins, and we are spending millions of dollars on these admins to maintain these systems that were supposed to have a great ROI. And I haven’t seen any studies on it, but I bet if we could compare on-prem with old software that we used to buy and put on-prem to SaaS, we would say that it was a lot cheaper to do it. And we’re not gonna go back. We’re not gonna do that any differently anymore, but I think we have to use that same type of lens. The ROI is not just the build. It is how are we gonna maintain this and keep it long term. RR: Yeah, and that’s the pendulum swing you mentioned earlier. Excitement, then reality hits, then we’re back to the next shiny thing. For those in that stage of enthusiasm that maybe don’t know what they’re getting themselves into, what do you wish they understood before kicking off a build or approaching IT with an idea? KW: I think the full cost. That you can’t do the math by just looking at what it costs to build, or that I can get a couple of my key people to go build this thing in Claude, but it’s how are we going to scale this in the organization? How are we going to deploy this thing? How are we going to maintain it? How are we going to support it? Who’s gonna take the support questions at midnight when they come in? And then how are we gonna iterate to keep ahead and make sure that it can do everything that we need it to do and stays ahead of where the business is going? RR: And when you’re having those conversations, at what point should IT actually be in the room? And what happens when you’re not? KW: I think that IT should be brought in the room as soon as a team is saying, “We can build this instead of buying it.” And really, I think that IT is not there, or hopefully we’re not there to say no. We’re there to help shed a light on what it’s actually going to take long term so that we make the best decisions. Because ultimately, I think we understand the technology and we understand the challenges of deploying stuff like this and then maintaining it long term. That’s what we do. And so if we’re in the room earlier, we can at least shine a light on it and give kind of that picture of reality so that we’re making the best decisions and there’s no surprises. Because the worst thing is that decision to build is made, they start building it, they realize they need IT’s help, and IT has a roadmap. We don’t have the resources or the ability to step in and solve this problem. Now you’ve wasted money. RR: Yeah. I saw a really interesting stat from some original research by Influ2. They surveyed marketing and sales leaders that are in the market for technology, and of those leaders, only 10% of them saw the IT perspective as valuable during the evaluation. 38% of them, however, then came back and said our biggest blocker, the number one blocker, in fact, was IT. So that disconnect is very clear, and it’s causing very clear consequences down the line. KW: I think what I would say is the best IT teams don’t want to be blockers. We don’t get excited blocking what the business is doing. We get excited leveraging the technology and moving it forward as fast as possible and seeing the business successful. So that’s what we want to do. It’s really hard when decisions have been made that back us into a corner and we’re like, “There’s no way to scale this, support this, continue this.” And then we’re seen as a blocker, but if we just had the conversation earlier, we could actually mitigate that much earlier. RR: So it sounds like the theme here is that your IT team wants to be a partner, not a gatekeeper or a blocker. And so knowing that, bring them along for the ride. Give them a seat at the table. Your programs, your investments will be better for it. If you had to boil this all down to one tip for marketing, sales, or enablement leaders on partnering with IT as they bring AI into their tech stack, what would it be? KW: I think if you can bring the IT team in and have a forward-looking view over the next year, over the next two years. It’s really hard to look two years out with AI and how fast it’s moving, but over the next year maybe, this is where we want to get. This is what we want to automate. This is what we need to fix. This is what we need to deliver in order to continue to execute on our objectives. If IT is on the same page there, we can be a proactive resource and help to get them there. We read all these things every day, there might be something that I’m seeing in the market or happening that I can bring to the table. Or at very least, when you come to me in six months and say, “Okay, I pulled the trigger on this thing,” we had that conversation. I knew it was coming. I knew the direction we were going, and directionally I was aligned with you, and so now I’m supporting that initiative rather than it being a surprise with no resources. So let us help with the roadmap. I think if we could do that across the whole business with IT, we would win together. RR: The one pretty clear takeaway, I think, whether you build, whether you buy, or whether you land somewhere in between, bring your IT team into the conversation, and you’re set up either way. Keith, last question for you. Just curious, what would you say to someone who looks at this build, buy, blend conversation and asks, “Why don’t I just build Highspot myself?” KW: When you build something as big and as complex as Highspot, there’s a lot of learnings that happen, a lot of iterations, a lot of changes to get to where you are. And trying to build that from scratch is very difficult. And I think the next thing that you may hear is, “Well, we can cobble this together.” I would just say you’re going to maintain that thing that Highspot has a full engineering team to make that as wonderful and as best as it can be. And how many engineers can you staff to do that and keep the velocity of it so that whatever you’re building is gonna move faster and be better than what Highspot’s building? And then what’s that gonna cost you? Going back to that build versus buy, when you start looking at how many engineers it takes not only to build it, but then to maintain it, support it, deploy it, I think the ROI doesn’t pencil out. RR: The moment you throw out the phrase cobble together, I think you’ve kind of already answered your own question. Keith, thanks for the window into a world most of us in go-to-market rarely see. This was a lot of fun, and I’m really excited to share the news. IT is there to help, and when you give them a seat at the table, your AI investments will be better for it. KW: Yeah. Thank you so much. I appreciate the time. RR: To our audience, thanks for listening to this episode of the Win/Win Podcast. Tune in next time for more insights on how to maximize go-to-market success with Highspot.

Hay un debate que lleva tiempo flotando en toda la comunidad del desarrollo web, y en la de WordPress en particular: ¿tiene sentido seguir apostando por una plataforma tradicional cuando una IA es capaz de generar páginas enteras, con código personalizado e interfaces, en cuestión de segundos? Es una sensación perfectamente comprensible. Cuando ves lo que la inteligencia artificial puede hacer al vuelo, es natural preguntarse qué espacio le queda a WordPress. Pero, bajo mi punto de vista, el valor de WordPress no ha desaparecido: simplemente ha cambiado de lugar. En lugar de competir contra la IA, WordPress se está consolidando como el motor de ejecución y la base de datos sobre la que esa misma inteligencia artificial opera. Propiedad y soberanía de los datos La gran diferencia entre las soluciones no-code basadas en IA (o las plataformas SaaS empaquetadas que te alquilan su infraestructura) y WordPress es el control total. Con WordPress, la base de datos, los usuarios, los pedidos y los contenidos son 100% tuyos o de tu cliente. No hay locking. Ese concepto que antes se aplicaba a ciertos temas cerrados hoy lo trasladamos a la IA: no dependes de cambios drásticos en los precios de las APIs de empresas como ChatGPT o Claude, ni del cierre repentino de un servicio. La soberanía digital es un activo cada vez más crítico. Hay empresas que despidieron a mucha gente pensando que la IA lo haría todo, y muchas han terminado quebrando por eso. La IA necesita un backend confiable La inteligencia artificial es extraordinaria generando código y diseñando interfaces al vuelo, pero necesita una estructura sólida detrás para funcionar en el mundo real: la lógica de negocio, la persistencia, la gestión de usuarios y roles, las pasarelas de pago, las suscripciones y los flujos complejos. Un ejemplo real: la web de vozcaster.com la desarrollé entera con IA. Registré el dominio, la alojé en Cloudflare y le pedí a la IA que me creara un HTML estático muy mono, con colores bonitos y una tabla de precios dinámica con su selector anual. Todo rápido y precioso. Pero cuando llega el momento de la verdad —los usuarios, la seguridad, la gestión de suscripciones—, esa tabla enlaza a potencia.pro, donde todo lo gestiona WordPress mediante un plugin. La IA te resuelve la parte estática; la lógica de negocio y la persistencia en condiciones te las da una plataforma madura. Infraestructura lista para usar En lugar de construir desde cero un sistema de autenticación, una base de datos y un panel de administración para cada proyecto generado por IA, WordPress te ofrece toda esa arquitectura probada en batalla de forma nativa. Además, WordPress ya no es el simple generador de plantillas HTML o el gestor de blogs de antaño. Hoy cuenta con: APIs robustas gracias a su REST API y a soluciones como GraphQL. Un funcionamiento excelente como CMS headless, donde la IA alimenta los datos mientras la capa de presentación se gestiona externamente. Integración nativa con agentes de IA gracias al protocolo MCP, que permite conectar un sitio WordPress con modelos de inteligencia artificial para generar contenido, automatizar soporte o procesar datos de forma mucho más sencilla, precisamente por la madurez de la plataforma. Los flecos y los casos de borde Crear un prototipo visual con IA lleva minutos. Pero resolver los flecos finales —el cumplimiento del RGPD, las integraciones con ERP locales, la facturación compleja, los flujos de trabajo específicos— sigue requiriendo un sistema maduro. El repositorio de plugins de WordPress aporta esa flexibilidad para cubrir ese 1% de necesidades complejas que una herramienta automática suele pasar por alto. Es curioso: la IA arranca a toda velocidad, pero al llegar a cierto punto se frena, porque necesita hacer cosas que WordPress ya resuelve de forma simple por estar tan implementado. En una carrera de fondo, WordPress se come a la IA. Pasa igual que con los constructores visuales: Elementor es maravilloso y rapidísimo para la primera versión de una web presencial de cliente, pero cuando quieres implementar cosas más complejas a veces te toca irte a temas como GeneratePress. Son esos casos de borde que WordPress tiene más que superados. El rol del profesional no desaparece: se transforma Es como el agricultor que pasa del arado al tractor: sabe lo mismo, pero lo hace más rápido. El trabajo pesado ya no es picar CSS ni maquetar desde cero. El valor del profesional con experiencia en WordPress ha migrado hacia: La arquitectura de la información y la estrategia. El criterio técnico y la seguridad: saber evaluar si el código generado por la IA es seguro, optimizado y mantenible. La capacidad de conectar el ecosistema de WordPress con flujos de IA para aportar valor real, no solo un sitio estático. Otro ejemplo propio: he desarrollado un bot de Telegram que se conecta con WordPress para publicar capítulos de podcast (de hecho, este capítulo lo estoy publicando con ese sistema porque no tenía ganas de editar). Si yo no tuviera el criterio adquirido a lo largo de más de 15 años, no podría usar la IA de forma eficiente. Sé dónde está la identificación de usuario, cómo se gestiona una suscripción, dónde están los datos, y conozco a fondo plugins como PowerPress. Ese conocimiento profundo es el que me permite establecer la arquitectura y la estrategia adecuadas. No cualquiera puede desarrollar así. En resumen La IA ha democratizado la creación de webs sencillas: cualquiera puede pedirle una página que le diga lo guapo y lo alto que es, y quedará preciosa. Pero, precisamente por eso, las arquitecturas abiertas y extensibles como WordPress se han vuelto aún más valiosas como núcleo de proyectos digitales complejos: gestión de bases de datos, arquitectura, estrategia y capa de negocio. Cuando mezclamos ambos mundos —lo que ya conocemos de WordPress con la inteligencia artificial— aparecen cosas maravillosas. Así que no, la IA no nos va a quitar el trabajo: nos facilita avanzar de forma eficiente. Pero hay que usarla con criterio, y ese criterio es justamente lo que los desarrolladores del mundo WordPress hemos acumulado durante años. La IA sin criterio no sirve de nada. 🤖 El contenido de este post ha sido generado automáticamente con inteligencia artificial a partir de la transcripción del audio. Puede contener errores o imprecisiones. 🎙️ Publicado con VozCaster, el bot de Telegram que convierte tu voz en un episodio de podcast publicado. Pruébalo gratis. ¿Te ha gustado el episodio? Si quieres que sigamos experimentando con bots, protocolos y empanadillas polacas, no olvides suscribirte y dejarnos tu valoración. ¡Nos escuchamos en el próximo capítulo! Métodos de contacto Enviadnos vuestras preguntas al grupo de Telegram. Apuntaos al canal de Youtube del podcast https://www.youtube.com/potenciapro Si nos queréis decir algo directamente lo podéis hacer a @potenciapro , @materron, @mpc, o en el grupo de Telegram Y si eres muy muy muy fan del podcast Echa un vistazo a cómo nos puedes ayudar en https://potencia.pro/se-prosperoso/

Andrew Morbitzer, VP of Corporate Development, Life360 (ASX: 360) Your standard teaser tells a buyer everything about your company and nothing about why you fit their strategy right now. When sellers expect the buyer to figure out that alignment, the deal dies on the desk. Andrew Morbitzer has led more than $2 billion in acquisitions at Intuit and GoDaddy, worked on the sell-side as an M&A advisor, and returned to the buy-side as VP of Corporate Development at Life360. What You'll Learn Why do corp dev teams default to no on inbound deals before the first conversation How banker incentives and buyer incentives point in opposite directions How to research a buyer's strategy and priorities using only public information What a realistic projection signals to a corp dev leader versus what a hockey stick signals How to apply Buyer-Led M&A™ thinking from the sell side If you're advising on deals and want a framework for how buyers actually evaluate fit, DealPilot, powered by M&A Science, has Buyer-Led M&A™ frameworks to help you pitch into the buyer's strategy instead of handing them a data sheet. ____________________ This episode of M&A Science is presented by DealRoom. DealRoom just launched the only MCP server built for Buyer-Led M&A™ — so your AI and your deal data finally work together. Connect Claude, ChatGPT, or Copilot directly to DealRoom and let your AI read your pipeline, analyze due diligence documents, and automatically write findings back.  See for yourself: dealroom.net/mcp ____________________ Episode Chapters [00:00] Introduction [07:12] Why Inbound Deals Rarely Fit [09:40] Rationalization Over Strategy [10:01] The Inbound Problem Is Not Just About Bankers [15:43] When a Bank Actually Does the Work [18:12] The Banker's Incentive Problem [20:51] How to Actually Land the Pitch [22:12] Cash Flow and Finance Partnership [24:53] First-Hand Research on the Buyer [29:42] How Detailed to Get on Value Creation [34:30] What a Misaligned Banker Actually Costs You [37:50] Cold Outreach vs. Warm Relationships [40:45] Moves That Accelerate Trust [43:07] Applying Buyer-Led M&A on the Sell Side [42:48] The Year One Mistake That Bit Us [46:12] Assessing Culture Fit Before Close

Databox is an easy-to-use Analytics Platform for growing businesses. We make it easy to centralize and view your entire company's marketing, sales, revenue, and product data in one place, so you always know how you're performing. Learn More About DataboxSubscribe to our newsletter for episode summaries, benchmark data, and moreIn this episode, Rick and Pete break down exactly why: the semantic layer, the metric definitions, and the standardized math that make an AI's answer trustworthy instead of a guess. If you've ever wondered why connecting five random MCP servers to Claude doesn't give you the same results as a purpose-built data layer, this is the episode.What you'll learn:Why raw data connected directly to AI can actively mislead youThe three things a system needs (semantic relationships, metric definitions, consistent statistical math) before AI can safely draw conclusionsReal examples of AI skills built on Databox MCP — sales pulse, content performance partner, weekly growth dashboardWhy "just hook up your MCPs" burns through AI credits without getting you a real answer

Convoy says 85 million copies in 60 days. That means 63% of every console owner alive buys GTA 6, and the closest anyone has come without a bundle is half that.The crew digs into the Newzoo and Convoy numbers behind GTA 6 and finds projections that would require almost every active console owner on earth to buy it. Then Playtika, where a badly negotiated earn-out turned Superplay's success into a balance sheet problem big enough to put the studio on the block. Plus Unity 7's roadmap, Netflix throwing out gaming metrics that mean nothing, and what Township's match mode says about where mobile is heading.Topics Covered:• GTA 6 pre-orders skewing 89% to the $100 SKU• Why the projected attach rates are fantasy• The Ultimate Edition as soft price increase• UGC as the real GTA 6 story nobody is telling• Unity 7 roadmap, MCP integration and no-code web shops• Why Unity cannot scale against AppLovin• Tencent circling Superplay at up to $1.5 billion• The earn-out that broke Playtika's balance sheet• Disney Solitaire's trajectory into 2026• Netflix reporting 11x growth on numbers it will not disclose• Township bolting match onto a builder and printing money• Playable ads becoming actual game modesCHAPTERS: 00:24 Show Intro and Agenda01:38 Banter Marvel Trailers02:49 Announcements and Roundtables04:26 Xbox Hire Update06:14 GTA6 Preorders Pricing15:01 Ultimate Edition Strategy17:33 UGC and Online Upside19:15 Unity 7 Roadmap26:03 Playtika Superplay Rumor27:26 Superplay Earnout Breakdown28:11 Earn Out Math28:59 Tencent Deal Questions29:38 Disney Solitaire Outlook30:49 Why Sell Superplay34:48 Superplay Hits Breakdown36:02 Valuation Reality Check39:13 EA Predicts Winners40:49 Netflix Gaming Metrics43:26 What Metrics Matter46:49 Netflix Versus YouTube48:06 Township Versus Top Tycoon50:41 Match 3 Monetization Engine52:43 Hybridization And Playable Ads56:15 Fortnite Obsession Collab57:43 Wrap Up And Goodbye

Spring AI 2.0 released in June 2026 and is one of several projects ensuring Java's continued strength in enterprise AI development. Here are some tips on deterministic agents, MCP servers and skills, prompt engineering, and where Java's richness for AI solutions stems from. In this "Input/Output" episode of the Inside Java Podcast, recorded during JavaOne 2026, Lize Raes talks to Dan Vega, Spring Developer Advocate at Broadcom, Java Champion, speaker, and author. "Input/Output" is our new show, where we talk to people outside of OpenJDK to bring you their perspectives and insights into what's happening in the Java ecosystem.

In recent months, the open vs closed, and US vs China discussions on model ownership and sovereign/local AI have heated up to a fever pitch. So it is very very good news that Poolside AI are finally emerging with new models, like Laguna S 2.1, that are beating Thinking Machines' recent release nearly 10 times their size.Poolside's recent tech report got a lot of praise due to their level of detail, and Vibhu first covered Laguna's recent technical report on our paper club:From spending $12 million building language models for code before the world cared to creating a Model Factory that can take a model from pre-training to release in eight weeks, Eiso Kant has spent more than a decade betting that code is the path to AGI. In this episode, the Poolside co-founder joins swyx and Vibhu to explain why ChatGPT felt like vindication, why Poolside embraced open weights and open research, and why he would rather live in a world with 100 foundation model companies than five even if Poolside were one of the five.We go deep on Poolside's Model Factory: the engineering systems behind 10,000–20,000 experiments per month, streaming data directly into training, reproducible experimentation, low-precision compute, and agents that increasingly write code, launch jobs, evaluate results, and modify the pipelines used to train future models. Eiso also unpacks their recent launch Laguna S, why persistence, verification, and backtracking may matter more than raw intelligence, how much capability remains inside smaller models, why reinforcement learning will move earlier into pre-training, and why next-token prediction is still extracting too little from the web.We also discuss model-harness co-design, Poolside's path from coding agents to AGI, why Eiso thinks MCP and traditional tool calls are “stupid,” the real economics behind frontier-model training, Poolside's $500 million raise, open-source AI, regulation, NVIDIA and TSMC's influence, engineering productivity in the agent era, high-agency teams, and hiring at Poolside.We discuss:* How Andrej Karpathy's RNN work inspired Eiso to start building language models for code in 2015* Why Eiso spent four years and $12 million pursuing an idea before the market cared* Why ChatGPT felt like vindication and brought Poolside back to open source* Why Eiso would prefer 100 foundation model companies over an oligopoly of five* The difference between releasing open weights and publishing genuinely open research* Why Poolside deliberately built a global research organization outside the Bay Area talent war* Why model building is ultimately 90% engineering* The Model Factory: Poolside's end-to-end system for rapidly training and improving models* How fewer than 70 researchers run roughly 10,000–20,000 experiments each month* How Poolside moved from six-month model cycles to five- and eight-week launches* Why streaming data directly into training unlocked faster experimentation* How immutable data, versioned code, and reproducibility enable rigorous model research* Why Eiso wants capable researchers to leave their labs and become Poolside's competitors* Why 95% of model building can be reduced to better data or compute efficiency* Laguna S and why persistence, verification, and backtracking can outperform raw intelligence* Why smaller models may handle far more knowledge work than previously expected* Why reinforcement learning will move earlier into pre-training* Why next-token prediction is still failing to extract enough knowledge from the web* Why distillation and environments have become the AI industry's favorite “drugs”* Why mid-training is really an early form of curriculum design* Low-precision training, networking bottlenecks, and the next gains in compute efficiency* Laguna S: 118 billion total parameters, 8 billion active, and eight weeks from training to launch* Why model builders can often evaluate a new checkpoint within its first 30 minutes* Model versus harness: where agent capabilities actually come from* Why Poolside sees coding and long-horizon software tasks as a path to AGI* Why Eiso thinks MCP and traditional tool calls are “stupid”* Why future agents will write scripts instead of choosing from dozens of predefined tools* The case for minimal harnesses, containers, and model freedom* Why Poolside is prioritizing vision but does not expect to work on audio soon* Why language may be the most compute-efficient modality for encoding knowledge and reasoning* The real cost of model development and why the final training run is anticlimactic* The story behind the Poolside name and why it represents refusing to lower ambitions* How Poolside raised $500 million while investors still questioned whether AGI was real* Why intelligence could become the world's most demanded and commoditized resource* When open models may become too capable to release without restrictions* Why unilateral AI safety does not work in a globally competitive environment* How regulation could accidentally lock in an oligopoly of two or three AI companies* NVIDIA, TSMC, and the hardware systems underpinning foundation-model progress* Why reinforcement-learning wall-clock time is one of Poolside's biggest bottlenecks* Why Poolside trains models from scratch instead of simply distilling larger models* How AI changes the way companies should measure engineering productivity* Why agency may become the most important quality for employees in the AI era* How leaders align high-agency people through shared goals and clear constraints* Hiring across research, post-training, pre-training, architecture, evals, and engineering at PoolsideEiso KantLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eisokantX: https://x.com/eisokantPoolside: https://poolside.aiTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:00:54 Karpathy, RNNs, and Building Code Models Before Transformers00:02:26 The $12M Failure and ChatGPT Vindication00:03:39 Open Source and the Case for 100 Foundation Model Companies00:09:22 Open Weights, Open Research, and Poolside's Global Team00:16:04 The Model Factory: Why Model Building Is 90% Engineering00:20:19 Agents, Automated Experiments, and Early Signs of RSI00:24:04 Streaming Data, Reproducibility, and Scientific Rigor00:30:35 Creating More Foundation Model Companies00:36:07 Laguna S: Persistence vs. Raw Intelligence00:43:01 Reinventing Pre-Training, RL, and Curriculum Design00:52:33 Low-Precision Training and Squeezing More From Smaller Models00:58:37 Model Harnesses, Coding Agents, and the Path to AGI01:09:26 Why MCP and Traditional Tool Calls Are “Stupid”01:13:04 Vision, Multimodality, and Why Language Still Matters01:18:15 Scaling Models and the Real Economics of Training01:20:40 Why Poolside Is Called Poolside and Raising $500M01:27:37 Open Models, AI Safety, and the Risk of an Oligopoly01:33:53 NVIDIA, TSMC, and the Reinforcement-Learning Bottleneck01:41:52 Smaller Models, Distillation, Engineering Productivity, and HiringTranscriptIntroduction: Eiso Kant, Poolside, and Open ModelsSwyx [00:00:00]: All right, we're here in the studio with Eiso Kant from Poolside, together with Vibhu. Welcome.Eiso Kant [00:00:08]: Thanks. Thanks for having me, guys. Good to be here.Swyx [00:00:10]: Yeah, fresh on the plane. You texted me, you were like, “Hey, I'm on my way to SF.” I was like, “You're on a plane right now, right?” Like, hey.Eiso Kant [00:00:16]: I know. After I texted you, I realized that probably coming in with major jet lag was gonna offer some fun experiences today, but let's do it.Swyx [00:00:23]: I mean, I think the thing I would tell guests is that they don't have to prepare that much because if you're truly working on this every single day, then even, like, what you hazily remember is going to be new for a lot of the audience that don't live in your world every day, right? so 10 years ago, you did a talk at Google Slush, talking about the democratization of AI. and, now here you are, like, open sourcing an incredible new model that we're gonna talk about. But I guess, like, what got you into democratization of AI? Like, it's not obvious from your LinkedIn or something.From Karpathy's RNN Post to SourcedEiso Kant [00:00:57]: No, it's not at all. I don't think it's obvious how I got in this space. I owe getting into this space to Andrej Karpathy.Eiso Kant [00:01:05]: In 2015, he wrote an article called “The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Recurrent Neural Nets.”Swyx [00:01:10]: Neural Nets, yep.Eiso Kant [00:01:11]: And that article, I read it, and I pivoted my startup at the time overnight to working on RNNs, and later LSTMs and Transformer models to be able to write code. If you go to this article and you scroll down, you can start seeing, like, this was the precursor to what ended up becoming language models. So, at least when he was character-level language models that were starting to predict letters, he has an example out here. There's a little Paul Graham generator, and you can read it, and the text makes sense, but it doesn't. and there's a little-- There's an example of code a little bit further down. Yeah, so Shakespeare.Swyx [00:01:47]: Shakespeare.Swyx [00:01:49]: CoolEiso Kant [00:01:49]: And for some reason, I read this, and I went down the rabbit hole of learning everything I could about RNNs and LSTMs, right? This is Transformer paper. And I had built a completely unreasonable belief, that neural nets should be able to generalize to anything and everything, and that language should be able to generalize, to a lot of things that are intelligent and the ability to write code. And so I started building Sourced, which was a fully open source company trying to build, what we used to call machine learning on code, language models on code. And we spent about four or five years on this, till the end of 2019. And that sounds really cool today, but back then, no one cared.Eiso Kant [00:02:29]: Right? Like, no one cared. We were in the dark. Like, we did things along the way. We tried applying convolutional neural nets to, like, the structure of code. We were. when attention came out, we were applying it to LSTMs, and then the Transformer paper came out. And it - it wasn't obvious, and what we missed throughout that entire journey, that we were on the right track, but we should have just kept scaling up. And today, to all of us, the scaling laws and scaling up seems like the most obvious thing. But having spent four or five years of my life on working on language models on code, it wasn't obvious. So I have a lot of respect to folks at Google and OpenAI and others who took that confidence and kept going. we failed ultimately at the time, and it was, like, biggest failure of my career, right? You blew $12 million of investors' money, which was a lot back then.Swyx [00:03:18]: Yep.Eiso Kant [00:03:19]: You spent, still a lot, but, And you spent years with, like, a group of 40 people just obsessing over this problem. And life took a different turn, And it was, and family became a focus, and I kept my heads down and really, didn't really look at language models for the following two years. big mistake considering Following years are gonna be really interesting. And then ChatGPT came out And it was like a vindication. It's like people started texting me. I found, like, my old, work decks and these old talks. And throughout that whole journey, we,ChatGPT, Vindication, and Returning to Open SourceEiso Kant [00:03:56]: We really had a strong point of view at the time that, like, as you're building more capable intelligence, it should be open and open source.Eiso Kant [00:04:04]: When we started Poolside, that wasn't the case at all, and I wanna be very open about it. When we started Poolside, we were like, there was a premise of two things. One is this technology is not gonna stop compounding in capabilities. I think to most people obvious today, but three-plus years ago when we started, most people were still arguing if these were stochastic parrots or not.Eiso Kant [00:04:23]: And the second was that reinforcement learning was gonna be the biggest driver for LLM capabilities. Today, very obvious. Three years ago, was not an opinion held or direction held at either OpenAI or Google or Anthropic or others. And so people looked down on us a little bit. They were like, “ is this really gonna work?” And so we just started working the problem, and we never really thought about open source again. We just kept our heads down and we built our, like, knowledge, understanding from scratch, right? We didn't roll out of an existing lab. So we picked up the papers and started writing code and figuring things out.Eiso Kant [00:04:59]: And it wasn't until the beginning of this year that me and my founder, Jason, picked up the open source conversation again.Eiso Kant [00:05:07]: And if you go back to some of the early things on our website, it was very straightforward. It was we wanna get to AGI, we wanna support a world of abundance, and we wanna be the first company that gets there.Eiso Kant [00:05:20]: But we started talking at the beginning of this year because it became obvious that the world was going in a direction that was starting to like, pick at us a little bit. Like, it didn't, this didn't happen overnight. It was, like, a little bit we were seeing this and we're like, “Okay, The world's going down a path.” And Throughout this journey, there was something that I used as a, as an analogy or thing. So I said well, if I go back to back in those days, 2015 or 2016, we're working on this, and I picked up a fi book off the shelf, and I was reading the book about 2035. AGI is achieved, and the story would be over the following, decades. And it would have that first chapter where everyone's trying to figure things out. You'd get the chapter of ChatGPT coming out And then you would get to the chapter where the world was at a fork in the road, and the one that it picked was one where three or four or a handful of companies were going to create all of intelligence moving forward.Eiso Kant [00:06:21]: And when I thought about that story, it felt like a dystopian fi book, not a utopian fi book. And the reality is, I'm a utopian fi guy. Like, and so We took a step back and said, “Hey, can we play a role here?” Now it was easy for us to do so because we were not at the frontier.Eiso Kant [00:06:41]: If we were at the frontier, I don't think we could have changed our mind. and I don't mean this like it's when the moment there's too much capital involved, too much expectations, you've built up things, right? We're a small team, just improving and improving. And so we knew that we could make that decision now, but it would be a lot harder to make as we got closer and closer to the frontier and caught up to others. And did a lot of soul-searching and a lot of conversations, and said, “No, this makes sense,” Even if there's big unanswered questions, like how the hell do you build a business model with foundation models about open source? Big open-ended question that we do not fully have the answer to yet, right? At what point do you no longer wanna release open source models because misuse of models has, real potential risks associated with it? how is the government gonna respond to open source? but I think it all just came down to one thing, and I'll stop the monologue, is the fact that I rather live in a world that has 100 foundation model companies than a world that has five, even if I was one of the five. And the smallest and most meaningful contribution we can make for 100 to exist is to open up our research and open up, like, our weights right now and figure out along the way how we can, like, do more.Neo-Labs, Model Choice, and the Token EconomySwyx [00:08:01]: Yeah. I think if anything, over the past three years, that has become a bit more true. you are one of a cohort of Neo labsEiso Kant [00:08:10]: YeahSwyx [00:08:10]: That people are now calling that. And, we're, we're doing this on the day that Thinky launched their, new model and you are outperforming them on their, on some benchmarks that they released, right? Like, they just don't have it yet. so it goes to show that I think, like, this is one of those things where, like, there is room for multiple players, and you are seeing a little bit more of the future. Maybe more like 20, not 100, but, like, you are one of the 20.Eiso Kant [00:08:36]: I really hope so, right? I think we I'm, I'm excited about their release, and I'm excited about everyone releasing because, like, ultimately, like, choice competition is both gonna drive progress in the right direction. But the fact that like, we create models and while we all, drink out of the same well of data effectively, we do introduce very different behaviors and biases in our models. Some are intended biases, some are completely unintended biases.Swyx [00:09:03]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:09:03]: And if we shape up in an ecosystem in the world where open models are gonna be a part of the token economy, like, I don't think there's any question about it anymore Then we want to be able to live in a world where companies, countries, people can choose and say, “Hey, I am most aligned and I trust most this provider for these things.”Swyx [00:09:25]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:09:26]: I think more than just one of the 20 Neo labs, up until recently, most of open source innovation was coming from the Chinese labs, right? So there's the DeepSeek of the West. Is it today? Okay, maybe it's thinking machines reflection, but there aren't many, right? So, one of the things you guys started in France, Europe, but very much now you're taking that American standpoint and more than just that, the point is the Chinese models that we see, they're not super open research. the work you put out is, I think, some of the best. So every few months you get not only frontier models, but also here's a breakdown blog, paper, technical report of here's everything for state of the art to build, frontier intelligence and you're filling that gap too, right? So not just only open weight, not just Western, but also pretty open research.Open Weights vs. Open ResearchEiso Kant [00:10:20]: No, I appreciate it. Look, I think it's, I think it's the most meaningful contribution, right? Weights are a binary. Let's call them what they are. Yes, we can modify them, we can change them, but, like, giving someone the weights does not allow them ultimately to recreate what you're doing, right? And so now there's challenges around releasing data sets, challenges around like releasing certain things, but being able to share your research, like, right, how do we do it? What are the lessons we learned that we spent, tens of thousands of experiments of compute on? I think very much so. One correction though, Vibhu, and I say this because it's been haunting us for quite a few years. We from day zero were an American company.Swyx [00:10:55]: Yeah. They movedPoolside's Global Team and American Company StorySwyx [00:10:56]: To France.Eiso Kant [00:10:56]: So the story once and for all is very. We start as an American company. We have always been an American company, and early on we made a very conscious decision. We said, “We're not gonna hire any researchers in the Bay Area. We're gonna look for talent everywhere else in the world.” and that is everything from Middle Americas, Seattle to, Serbia, and to Taiwan and Singapore and other places. And it was because we took a view that this was gonna become a talent war for this, and I think it has over the years now. Three years ago, that wasn't fully obvious yet. I think today it very much is. And we also realized that, like, some of the world's most capable people with, like, the most interesting, innovative ideas were not just gonna be here. And so it led us to create like a fully remote company. and we ended up opening an office in Paris and London and different places and we have a lot of the team in the US and a lot of team outside. But we always took this view of like, we're an American company, but if we want the best of the best to work with us, we need to take a global view. Now we do also have people here in Silicon Valley, like the company's grown and others, but I think one of the things that, it slowed us down at the beginning, but it has sped us up now, and it's why you're seeing like the progress, I think, on our models and the cadence at which we release, is because we didn't roll out of an existing lab. Right? we didn't, we didn't have a lot of the information that's freely flowing around here at the time. We just took this point of view as like, “Okay, well, let's just work the problem. Let's just go and, like, read the few papers that are out there, and let's just figure this stuff out.” And we made some hilarious mistakes in model training because of that over the yearsEiso Kant [00:12:35]: Like especially in the first 12 months. there's a few that I think still haunt me and scare me. We can talk about them later. but it created a, like, a resiliency and persistency in the team, right? with extremely few people have left us over the years, that, like, told us, “Okay, we can do this.” When we first wrote our first training code base completely from scratch, it wasn't a fork of any open source. It was just like, “Okay, let's build it from scratch.” I remember we had this one moment where we spent three weeks working out an optimizer bug. Like, it was like training just couldn't get stable. We, like, obsessed over it, and we thought, like, maybe we were wrong. Maybe we should have just forked this repo, or we should have. But then when we solved it, I still remember at the time we were like five people in the company. when we solved it, we were like, “Oh, we can do things,” like if we're just willing to work hard. and I think that culture with a very strong engineering bias has helped us, like, get to where we were. And so there's this notion of open source and talent and these things. I think we, We just took different decisions from a different starting point. and I think we are lucky. I do want to definitely call it lucky. And there was a lot of hard work at the team that now, like, that's starting to show up in results.Swyx [00:13:52]: Just ‘cause we probably won't revisit this again, but, and this is a fun recruiting challenge if someone knows the answer. What was the bug? And then we won't tell the solution, but we'An Optimizer Bug and the Value of Building From ScratchEiso Kant [00:14:01]: So the - This - You're gonna test my memory here,Swyx [00:14:04]: Oh, okayEiso Kant [00:14:04]: So but I thinkSwyx [00:14:05]: DirectlyEiso Kant [00:14:05]: I think I can recall. So if you, so if you look at, So if you take like Adam as an optimizer, you have epsilonSwyx [00:14:12]: YeahEiso Kant [00:14:13]: Which is, right, like in the denominatorSwyx [00:14:14]: Momentum and weights. YeahEiso Kant [00:14:15]: Is exactly, in the denominator. And at the time, if I recall, you looked at like the early Llama papers and things like that. People were juicing epsilon, like, quite a bit. Like, they were, like, adding, I don't know if it was E minus four or whatever, like a high value for epsilon.Eiso Kant [00:14:31]: And if you think about this during training, it's like a bit weird and counterintuitive that we're adding noise to our optimizer by just adding effectively, like, a random number in the denominator, right? Like behind the decimal point. And I don't recall the exact bug, but it had - What I remember is once we solved it, we no longer had to juice epsilon as much as, like, was happening in the Llama paper and other places. and it was like one of those fundamental moments where we had trusted this paper that was out there, and we're like, “Oh, no, it has to be this way. It has to have this high value of epsilon.” But it made no sense to us intuitively. Like, why do you have to have this so high? Like, if you're just trying to avoid division by zero, why can't the value be extremely small? and that was like one of those moments where you realize like, okay, finding things out from scratch yourself builds a better intuition. Because the one thing you learn very quickly with model building is that your intuitions that you start with are gonna get beaten up so hard.Eiso Kant [00:15:33]: Right? Like - It's such an experimental science, that the things that seem obvious, you very quickly get to learn, like, you were wrong, and hopefully you figure out why, and sometimes you don't even.Swyx [00:15:45]: Yeah. yeah, so, one of the reasons that you, when you released your new models, Vibhu got really excited. I mean, everyone got really excited. But Vibhu led our paper club on it, and you guys sawEiso Kant [00:15:58]: YeahSwyx [00:15:58]: Obviously. maybe talk through some lessons learned in that, whatever you can disclose. we can focus on the model factory stuff, whatever you think is a good starting point.Model Building as EngineeringEiso Kant [00:16:08]: So I would say that our view from very early on in the company was that model building is ultimately 90% engineering.Eiso Kant [00:16:18]: And I think we all know it in the industry because if you look at where's every researcher spending their time, they're spending their time writing code, right? Looking at data and writing code. And so we said, okay, The state at the moment, like three years ago, was bash scripts and Slurm and spaghetti code bases for training and, like, data pipelines that were patched together. And we looked at this and said, “Well, ultimately, model building is a process.” You're going from raw data, right? Like training raw material, the web, et cetera. you're doing a whole bunch of filtering, cleaning up, transformations, analyzing. These days, that's, far more complex than it was three years ago. then you're training a model, which is effectively a large distributed systems problem, right? Across hardware that has still-- It's become a lot more reliable. It was extremely flaky back then. and now with every new generation, we get our new sets of challenges. And then you go into the next stages, right? There was no training back then, but, like, you got, your post-training and then your reinforcement learning. And so we looked at this and we said, “Well, this looks like an industrialized process. This looks like an end process, that every single part of it has its machinery,” right? If it's your big data pipelines, if it's your crawling ingestion of the web, if it's your, large-scale distributed training, and then you've got your reliability. And we said, “Well, why don't we take some of the world's smartest distributed systems engineers that we knew and make them part of the process of research from day zero?” Not retrofitting it later on, but, like, really from the beginning. And that became our model factory. And so our model factory started with a handful of components. Today, it's thousands of components, and I try to equate it to, if you think about, like, someone who was at the very early days of Foxconn, if they had been there for the following, decade, they would be able to rebuild Foxconn because they saw every decision that led to building that system and all the complexity. If you and I walk into Foxconn today, no chance.The Model Factory and Experiment VelocityEiso Kant [00:18:18]: Right? Because we don't have the lineage and history of decisions that led to that. And so we built early on from the beginning- with a team that really understood that, well, the metric that we are optimizing for is the speed of an idea from a researcher to an experimental result that we can trust to then being part of the next model training.Eiso Kant [00:18:42]: And in the. And because it's such an experimental science, ultimately, in the beginning when it wasn't that complex, you could patch your way around it, right? But now, at any foundation model company, you are running. I mean, we're a small team, right? We're less than 70 researchers, another 35 engineers. and we are running, I haven't checked the latest count, but far more than 10,000, maybe 10 to 20,000 experiments a month that we cut. And so if you look at that scale of every model run that is, like it's ultimately it's, it's you need to be able to trust it as an infra problem. And so what we have now done over the years is gotten really good at that, and just by working it and improving it and obsessing over those end decisions. So now what that means is that you looked up Laguna XS 2 that we launched. It was five weeks from the beginning of training to launch. The model that we're gonna talk about today was eight weeks from start of training, to launch. We started the next model literally yesterday because we now finished the post-training required for the model we're launching, next week or by the time this comes out today. and we move that compute to the much larger Laguna M model that we're now training. And so the model should be an artifact of someone's process. It shouldn't be really a thing in itself. Like, and we treat this like the way you would look at like a SpaceX factory where, yes, the first rocket, really hard to build, but the much harder challenge was building the factory. And now they're rolling off, and no one is really thinking about the next launch anymore. So it's just another launch, it's another launch, another rocket comes off. And that's what we're trying to do with model building.Eiso Kant [00:20:22]: And what has been, which was not planned from day zero, it was in the back of our mind like this will happen one day, is that when you build a really good end model factory with really good APIs and really good engineering systems, Well, what is it perfect for? It's perfect for agents.Agents Inside the Model FactoryEiso Kant [00:20:40]: Because agents are now starting to take over more and more work in our model factory.Vibhu [00:20:43]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:20:44]: So I look at the screens when I walk, like when we're, we come together, in our monthly, we do monthly onsites, and I walk behind people's screens and I stop by and I talk to our researchers. And the default is all of these different agents running on their screen that are writing the code. They're launching the jobs. They're evaluating the results that are coming back from the model runs. They are, making the changes. And we're still in the driver's seat. We're still coming up with the ideas. We're still helping with the debugging. But more and more, and this is right now very profound on the data side of our pipelines in both pre and post and the synthetic data pipelines, it's starting to become more on the architecture side as well. You're starting to see these twinklings of what RSI is gonna look like.Eiso Kant [00:21:27]: And that's. So when we talk about, like to your question about our models, every talk about the model factory, And my coolest example of these things is always that when we kick off a new run, doesn't matter if it's a training like big run or if it's now a post, like one of 10 post-training versions we do for like release or many experiments, is that at any given moment, the changes that somebody made that they had experimental results from the day before make it into that run.Eiso Kant [00:21:57]: So there's not like a cutoff 90 days before. Like no, it's like literally from that moment because we can now trust the machine enough. And then you also have to invest in the reliability. So one of my favorite metrics about like Laguna S is that there was no call events, Right? Like completely zero. And we haven't had a meaningful call event, like something to wake up for, as far as I recall this entire year. now there is one asterisk to that. In usually the first six hours of launching a new model run, something breaks because you set a config wrong, you made a small mistake, et cetera. So that's usually there's a little bit of intervention, but that's always within like call periods, right? Not on call. And I think that's starting to now compound. So the model we're releasing now, I love it. It's amazing, but we're already onto the next one. and I think that's the way it should be.Laguna, Five-Week Builds, and Zero On-Call EventsVibhu [00:22:50]: Hey, I also just wanna point out, so for context, this was like a month ago. we found it in the tech report, so we just came in with, “Okay, new model's dropped. Haven't heard about it.” We wereEiso Kant [00:23:02]: Yeah, we're very used to doing this every few months.Vibhu [00:23:03]: We're, we're very much like, “ okay, look, it's like, on par with Kimi, DeepSeek, whatnot, the small ones, Gemma level. Oh, it's a very cool paper on what goes into building.” And then we hit this page, right? Like literally page two of tech report is, “This process allowed us to build the small model from scratch to delivery within five weeks applying the lessons”. And then I'm like, oh, this paper is not about here's a tech report of benchmarks and here's how many tokens it was trained on. Like for people that wanna dive more from what we're not gonna discuss on the podcast, it's all laid out here, right? FromEiso Kant [00:23:38]: YeahVibhu [00:23:39]: Custom software that agents can use to interface with training code, training data.Eiso Kant [00:23:45]: Yeah. Well, link the paper correctly, so yeah.Vibhu [00:23:47]: Yeah. All that stuff. read the paper here, but,Technical Report Principles and Streaming Training DataEiso Kant [00:23:50]: But I would like to. I love principles, and I think that is a good starting off point for maybe telling some stories. Maybe we can go one by one past the principles. I'll just call out that Dagster just got bought by a Prefect.Vibhu [00:24:01]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:24:01]: Isn't it fun? But yes, I'm very familiar with Dagster. just anything where like they trigger some story.Vibhu [00:24:07]: So, well, I would say, well, experiments code's obvious, but I think one of my favorite things is, I don't know where it is in here, but early on, and I still think this is the case a lot of foundation model companies, people prepare their training data sets, they get packaged up, then they get copied over to a training cluster distributed across all of the nodes, and then training starts.Vibhu [00:24:30]: And we looked at this like three years ago and we were like That makes no senseEiso Kant [00:24:36]: You lose so much time because the moment you have to rematerialize the data set, you have to make a change, you have to fix something, et cetera, you've got all this time of like repackaging it, right? Toca- tokenizing it, repacking it, moving it over to a cluster, then distributing it across the nodes. The bigger your clusters are, you start using fancy like torrent-like algorithms to like distribute your data. So why aren't we streaming data into training? Right? Something that's very common and like just basicVibhu [00:25:00]: Like just in timeEiso Kant [00:25:01]: Just in time, like good computer science like principle. And that was one of the first things that I think unlocked - the model factory. Because the moment you start thinking about, well, a training job, it doesn't matter if it's a big hero run or a small like, post-training experiment, consumes a certain number of tokens per second, right? And it's not a lot, right? From a like a data, moving data perspective. So we said, well, we have our training cluster, and then we've got like our AWS kinda setup where we can build these amazing big data pipelines. We can set things up. We use Spark underneath the hood, like all these things.Vibhu [00:25:36]: But when you say AWS, it's not actual AWS, it's your internal AWS.Eiso Kant [00:25:39]: It's our internal-- No, it's our internal like just running like our infrastructureVibhu [00:25:42]: Site web servicesEiso Kant [00:25:43]: Exactly. Our stuff running on like an AWS account or on like any hardware, right?Vibhu [00:25:47]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:25:48]: And so once we made that shift into I can stream data into training, all of a sudden you realize a lot of things unlock. Because now you don't have to wait for the whole data set to materialize.Immutable Data, Experiments as Code, and Scientific RigorEiso Kant [00:26:00]: You now all of a sudden when you're running data experiments about mixing data, it's a config. Because you've got these data sources that are coming in, and you just - we have this service called Blender that's in the report, where we then say, “Okay, for this run, I want 20% of this source, 10% of this source. I want this much, so many epochs of repetition. I want this to be, shuffled in a certain way,” and your training job can start while the rest of the data is even still materializing. also what it does is because all of this underneath-- So for us, we treated the data layer underneath as like an immutable data layer, and that was really important. Like experiments as code, immutable data layer means that you can always go back and understand literally down to the single token at which cursor it went in on which version of the code.Vibhu [00:26:47]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:26:48]: And it took us a I have to admit, like the first year of Poolside, we understood that engineering had to get great, But we didn't understand yet, that this is ultimately in support of like a good rigorous scientific progress. We were quite a - We were a very small number of people, so a lot of it was YOLO ideas and YOLO runs.Vibhu [00:27:08]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:27:09]: And we built great infra for the YOLO runs. But once we realized that we treated data as immutable and code as always versioned, and you could always track and trace every experiment end to end perfectly, you could repeat everything perfectly, right? You have perfect reproducibility. I can still reproduce runs from two years ago if I wanted to, right? It enables the scientific progress, like the scientific process, and I think that took us probably about a year and a half into the company to figure out. We also had some great hires, like our head of applied research, Nikolai, who joined us from Yandex, who'd been working on language models since like the early 2020s, I think brought that into the company of like, “Hey, we wanna have even more rigor.” And then once we kinda had the combination of like increasingly more capable platform that allowed people to do more, but had this immutability, we were able to start “Okay, every experiment is truly an ablation. We truly need to understand it.” And I think we became much more scientifically rigorous in the last couple of years, and the infra underneath enabled it. and then there's just fun stuff like, andVibhu [00:28:16]: Yeah, a lot of it's fun, like even just the, one, you share all the ablations, two, picking the data sets, right? There's like a random small paragraph in here where it's just like, “Oh yeah, training data, we have some, we have an auto mixer.” it trains eight small models, scales them up, picks the training data set. We don't even need to look at it. I'm like, “Wow, a lot of engineering rigor there.” And there's just, there's just a lot in here.Publishing Research and Giving BackEiso Kant [00:28:40]: Yeah, and it'- and look, and we wanna put out more. Like we, We treat writing papers as something that we haven't earned the right for yet for a long time. So you earn the right to spend time, publishing research once you're at the frontier, because until then, you're catching up, and every minute and hour in this industry matters. Like I obsess over it, not just the wall clock time from idea to result, but just general like time every day that we, waste is one that doesn't allow us to catch up. But in this case, we said, “Okay, we're gonna give ourselves.” I think we gave the team like three or four days while still doing their work, like give everything in there. And to your point earlier, if your stuff, it's easy to like put it out. And so there's so many more things that we wanna talk about over time, and we will definitely start doing. And as we earn more of the right, but also now have like added to our mission that we want more foundation model companies to exist, you'll see us like be way more proactive, and just trying to keep dropping some of those like things that we've learned along the way that can help others like speed up.Vibhu [00:29:40]: Which is the other cool side of this, right? It's, it's not like, back to your point, it's not just here's the benchmarks of our training. If you want to replicate, here's experiments of optimizers, data sets, post-training. you lay out a lot of it here alongside here's your system for how to do it? So it's, it's really like promotingEiso Kant [00:29:59]: No, thank youVibhu [00:29:59]: Other people can do the same.Eiso Kant [00:30:00]: And by the way, I also wanna make clear, right, we have been incredible-- Like we've taken a lot of advantage of the fact of all the open research that others have published, Right? And you mentioned, the Chinese labs, and we I think it's important that there's, from every country and every culture and background, including like Western companies like us, there's different models that come out that people can choose to trust. But I think we do have to give credit where credit's due, right? The incredible Chinese lab have done an amazing job at sharing their research, and we have definitely like been on the receiving end of taking advantage of that. So when you're on the receiving end of something coming to you, I think it's, you also have an obligation to give back.Swyx [00:30:39]: Do you have a favorite or underrated Chinese lab that you wanna shout out? Everyone shout outs DeepSeek.Chinese Labs, Zhipu, and PersistenceEiso Kant [00:30:44]: That's a good question.Swyx [00:30:45]: Moaan obviously for Therapsi. Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:30:48]: Yeah, look, I think, I think obviously everyone's been talking about Zhipu lately, with 5.2. I think what most people don't realize is when they started.Swyx [00:30:59]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:30:59]: Right? They started years before ChatGPT.Swyx [00:31:02]: They just rebranded. YeahEiso Kant [00:31:03]: And so, I've like, I remember how hard it was to work on these things Before the rest of the world got excited about it. And so I have an immense amount of respect for people, who were working on improving models when it wasn't the sexy thing to do, when believing in LLMs, was gonna get you ridiculed. I remember like back in 2016 when we were doing what we'd call, machine learning on code with some of these models. we would-- people would just laugh at us, like they'd be like, “This makes no sense. Like why are you wasting all these, like, millions of dollars on trying to figure this out?” And so I would say they're probably the one that, I think deserves a shout-out, not just because their latest model is very good, but because they fought to get here. And I think, I think every foundation model company it takes time to get here, right? It took us three years to get to the model that we're, that we're now gonna be releasing. and now the time in between the models is coming, is counted in weeks. It's no longer counted in months or years. But this stuff's hard. and if we can make it a little bit easier for the next person, like we should all do so. Because if we don't do so, we're, we've got a small window before models are really impacting recursive self-improvement to a level where catching up otherwise might become unfeasible. And we should try to, in that window, encourage as many labs or however we wanna call them, like to start. And so one of my currentEiso Kant [00:32:36]: Mission, but qualm is like I wanna encourage whoever is a researcher right now who thinks they can tackle this to go and leave and become my competitor.Eiso Kant [00:32:45]: Like start another foundation model company because I think we need it. I think otherwise we're not gonna be in the world where, I don't want to just be the fifth or the sixth company that wins. I wanna look at a world where there's lots of choice.Starting a Foundation Model CompanyVibhu [00:32:57]: What else do people not see in starting a foundation model? it's, there's a lot of compute, there's a lot of capital required, a lot of compute. You lay out model factory and how to do the training, but there's a lot there, right? That's,Eiso Kant [00:33:10]: Well, look, it's, I in turn-- this is an oversimplification, and I always asterisk it with that because it can land a little bit the wrong way in people's minds. But I think you can sum down, And I saw it, 95% of model building to just doing, you're just doing two things. You're improving data or you're improving compute efficiency. And I know that feels like an oversimplification for the incredible, like, Gifted and skilled work people do. But if you really look at it, like what are we doing? We are looking at data, we're generating new data, we're improving data. and the only way to do that is to look at the data, right? That's a big part of foundation model building. And on the other hand, we come up with these incredible breakthroughs in inference, in architecture, and new attention mechanisms. But what are they really doing? They're bringing compute efficiency. Now, we have definitely had some breakthroughs over the years that allow for more model capabilities. But at the limit, if you could train a large enough model, right, like, and you had infinite compute, we probably-- if you had infinite compute, you'd be at AGI probably already tomorrow.Eiso Kant [00:34:12]: Right? Like it's not. And so, and let me say that infinite compute with infinite ability of much faster networking because networking ends up being more of the bottleneck than compute. But, so I do think that's, those are the main things. And to just realize that this is engineering. I think it's become more obvious, but I think for quite a few years, people have held foundation model companies and researchers and others on this pedestal of like you're doing incredible magic or rocket science, or only like, Nobel laureate physicists can do this. And don't get me wrong, there are some really hard problems that need to be solved, but a lot of the work that all of us are doing on a day Is not sitting down trying to solve a math theorem. A lot of the work that we're doing is just really doing the basics right, writing good code, looking at data, improving it, running experiments, looking at plots, trying to see like, hey, trying to shape our intuitions. And a lot more people could be highly capable researchers. and I think that's, it feels far for people to do so. But I've seen in our own company, we've seen engineers become researchers because the model factory allowed them to be, have a much lower hurdle of running experiments and trying things. And one of the guys on our team who started as an engineer building our agents is a legit reinforcement learning researcher now, making real progress. and that happened in the span of like six months. that would've not been what I think most people assumed was possible, a couple of years ago.Swyx [00:35:46]: Yeah. I think one of the interesting moments is when you can self-host, like, if in a programming language, like if you can compile the language in the language, the equivalent is can you use your own tools, right? You have the pool CLI, you have your own models. presumably you're not only using your own models. There's no way. But like, what's that percentage over time?Laguna S, Persistence, and Behavioral GainsEiso Kant [00:36:10]: This is the first model that we're releasing that is starting to meaningfully contribute to our own work. It's not a it's not state-art model yet. Fable and other, they're, they're very capable models, but Laguna S Is really interesting. I'm gonna pull up the quote. Peng Ming, one of our heads of applied research, said something, last week as the model came out about 10 days ago, much better than we had hoped for or expected. And he said, I have the feeling that a lot of the gains in Laguna S come not from more intelligence, but more from different behavior, more verification, less taking things for granted, not declaring victory early, and being way more persistent. And to be honest, those are more predictive than raw intelligence for success in human also to some degree. And this was, he wrote me this on 5th of July on a Sunday, and it's been burned in my brain ever since because the Laguna S model, as you'll see it and why it does so well on benchmarks and why it does so well in using it on a day basis, is that it's just incredibly persistent. It reasons a lot. I do call that out. We have work to do on making it more efficient. We have to work to do on offering different reasoning modes. But this is the model that has been able to do things that I never thought it could do. A hundred eighteen billion 8B active model, which is not that large. It fits on a DGX Spark and still runs at, thirty, forty tokens a second on a Spark, is able to solve Erdős 397 independently. It's able to do complex programming tasks. It's able to. I asked it this morning to make me a Fi scanner without using any external libraries on my Mac, and it's, like, figuring out, like, the core WLAN API by really persistently trying to understand it without access to the internet. And more, I love vibe checking. I've probably spent eight to ten hours a day with this model for the last ten days.Eiso Kant [00:38:05]: I'm not exaggerating. I was on my eleven-hour flight yesterday. I spent ten hours reading trajectories and traces and, like, of the model.Eiso Kant [00:38:12]: And what I take away from it is exactly what Peng Ming said. We are gonna be able to squeeze so much more out of smaller models than I think we had imagined in the industry because, yes, there's intelligence and larger models are more intelligent. Like, no doubt about it. We should continue to scale up. but the behaviors of being really persistent, of being able to backtrack when you're wrong, of, like, understanding how to interact with your environment show us that we can get a lot more out of it. And this, for me, has created a bit of a Question in my mind the last couple of days. If you think about where we're using models today, right? We are using models, say, for knowledge work. Represents twenty-five percent of the global economy, twenty-five trillion dollars of work.Eiso Kant [00:39:00]: As we scale up models and they become more intelligent, we are excited about using them more and more for pushing the frontier of science.Small Models, Knowledge Work, and CommoditizationEiso Kant [00:39:08]: And if you look at the frontier of science, like true breakthroughs in science, they have been linked, they are linked to more intelligence in many places. Einstein figuring out general relativity is able to bring ideas together that other people would have not brought together. And I think one of the many dimensions of intelligence is the ability to do that, and it's something we clearly see that as models get larger and more capable, they're able to pull more ideas and threads together that a smaller model wouldn't be able to.Eiso Kant [00:39:36]: And we're starting to see examples of that in medicine and, like, in bio and other things. But if you think about the majority of knowledge work that we do, and it includes building software. I'm a software developer at heart first and foremost probably, although I probably can't say it that much anymore as I don't write production code in years, is that what makes us good is our persistence. It's our ability to encounter a problem and backtrack and say, “I need to go figure out this bug. I need to go research this. I need to go look at the documentation. I need to, like, try different, five different ways to see, like, if I can solve it.” But it is not necessarily bringing three ideas together from radically different fields. And so if we are now seeing, and I think Laguna S is an example, that we are able to make a relatively small model much more capable than I had definitely predicted or any previous, like, benchmarks had shown for any model remotely this size or even larger, At least on coding tasks, that it's because of the behaviors. And so now the question I have, and I don't have an answer, it is I know at the limit, so infinite model size, right, extremely large model, and the cost of that model is gonna be very expensive to run. We know this, right? So larger model ROI.Eiso Kant [00:40:52]: So I know that at the very limit, I'm not gonna use the world's largest model one day, quadrillion parameter, whatever crazy, like, scale we scale up, to do a basic coding task. Already today, I'm starting to size down for certain tasks.Eiso Kant [00:41:07]: So it means that there is an optimal. It means there's some curve that goes as we go up to model size for knowledge work, at some point we're at the peak, and after that, the return on investment of using a bigger model, just doesn't make sense.Eiso Kant [00:41:22]: Now, I think the question is, before I would have thought that peak was extremely very far away.Eiso Kant [00:41:30]: This model for me is the first sign that Maybe that peak is At a trillion, five trillion, ten trillion. Maybe we can just squeeze way more out of these models. I'm no longer thinking that we need two or three orders of magnitude on the largest models to be able to, solve knowledge work, the accounting, the legal, the code that we write. And so if that holds true, It is an argument for the commoditization of models. It's an argument that open source can win and, like, succeed in this world. And now it's of course a self-serving argument and it's a hopeful argument, but theoretically at the limit it works. We just have to go discover in the next couple of years of how much more we can squeeze out. Now, I do want to put a big asterisk. This does not mean I'm against scaling models. I think we ultimately only succeed if we scale our models as large as our competition. I do not like. I think we should not put our head in the sand and say we're gonna be king of open source small models. I think that's, It's a out. It's trying to be king of your own kingdom, but not realizing what the rest of the world's doing. All of us rather use a smarter, faster, more model. It's a sign of hope. And so I don't wanna overly state this is a good model. We have a long way to go to get to the state-art. But what hopefully people take away when they use this model is that the behaviors inside of it are what push it to be far more capable, less than necessarily the number of parameters.Pre-Training, Mid-Training, and RL Moving EarlierVibhu [00:43:03]: Is that mostly post-training? LikeEiso Kant [00:43:05]: YesVibhu [00:43:05]: Right.Eiso Kant [00:43:06]: It's entirely post-training.Vibhu [00:43:08]: Are we done improving anything on training? Is, like, training done?Eiso Kant [00:43:12]: No.Vibhu [00:43:12]: Okay.Eiso Kant [00:43:13]: SoVibhu [00:43:13]: I just wanted to cover training, and then we go post-trainingEiso Kant [00:43:15]: Training is not done. I mean, look, there's a part of training of just dealing with skill, right? Every new order of magnitude of model skill, you are going to get new things you gotta solve for. That'- but those are ultimately, engineering challenges.Eiso Kant [00:43:31]: I have a, I would say, a not commonly held opinion that reinforcement learning Will move earlier and earlier into training.Vibhu [00:43:42]: Yeah, training.Eiso Kant [00:43:44]: Not even training. Like training today, right, is, like if you look at - So we've been working on this for years already. and I think the best-- I think the first time we saw it out in public was the DeepSeek Zero paper. this is a year and a half ago, I think, if I recall correctly. where, you can Very early on in a model as it starts capable of being able to use language, et cetera, induce reasoning. and so the question that I have is like, we have this- we have the dataset that's the web. and the web, I think we could arguably say probably has The totality of humanity's knowledge somewhere encoded in different places. It's a huge variance degree of quality, from garbage data, and like once you look at training data, you really get humbled of like what the web is, to like, the most greatest scientific papers and best blog posts and like, best transcripts and whatnot.Eiso Kant [00:44:39]: And so now What we are trying to figure out, and have been doing a lot of work on, and it's a place where maybe not as open as we're on other things, but we will become more over time. we've been spending a couple of years really doing research on how can we turn the web into not just next token prediction, but into a way to teach the model to think earlier in its training. and I think there's a huge amount of gold to be found there. I think we are right now in, we've got some drugs in the industry. One of the drugs is distillation. Another drug is, more environments. Like, and they're great, and they make us feel good, and they make the models better, and like we're all addicted to them, and we'll use them, right? in various different ways. and but ultimately, I think we are still barely squeezing out of the web what we should be getting out of the web.Eiso Kant [00:45:33]: I think just next token prediction during training is not enough.Eiso Kant [00:45:36]: AndVibhu [00:45:38]: YeahEiso Kant [00:45:38]: I think we'll see some very interesting things still happen. and that RL in post-training to induce behaviors, to improve things, like I think - the whole world knows how to do this now. I think we're, we're scaling it up. Everyone is. But I wonder if we need to go as far as we're going today with environments. I'm not sure yetVibhu [00:46:01]: You mean we're going too far?Eiso Kant [00:46:02]: I'm, I'm not sure if the path to AGI is justVibhu [00:46:06]: Is more environmentEiso Kant [00:46:07]: More environments.Vibhu [00:46:08]: It seems like a never-ending, “Okay, I want instruction manual for this table, right? Am I gonna environment out building furniture? Or are we just gonna tail end like we need some general solution?”Eiso Kant [00:46:19]: I think there is, I think there's an ability to generalize more from the web. but I also am very encouraged, like when I look at Laguna S and, which is post-training is, well, is the big impact there. and I see like, oh, wait a second, just by making some of these behaviors much better, we're able to get so much more out of it. It just changes a little bit the way you think about intelligence.Vibhu [00:46:40]: Yeah. The analogy people draw often is the RL phase is where you don't learn as much new knowledge. You shiftEiso Kant [00:46:46]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:46:46]: Yeah. So, you shift distribution, and you can have it reason towards what you want. on your point about training, a lot of training is still just continue training in a domain, say medicine, then you do RL. So still justEiso Kant [00:47:00]: It's just better data, right? Like, I mean, training, ooh, I like how we invented this word. Like it's effectively just like,Vibhu [00:47:06]: Second phaseEiso Kant [00:47:07]: It's the second phase of training With like a really dumb way to do a curriculum. But like ultimately, what you'd want is a curriculum from token zero to token 30 whatever or 40 trillion tokens that really truly is the optimal curriculum for the model to learn. But training is essentially a stage curriculum on the web because we do not have to compute, And, effectively to try to ablate the perfect curriculum, right? And so I'm pretty sure that you'll start to see people talking soon about some other term, and there's two or - ‘cause now we do this, right? We talk stage two and stage three and stage four training and like. But ultimately, all we're doing is we're trying to assign a curriculum to the web data that we have to allow the model to learn better. I think at some point, as things get compute, as models get cheaper to run, as the next generations of compute, this will become more of a continuous spectrum. I also think the reason, by the way, you have training and like stage two and stage three is organizational, Right? It'- this is, I think, a thing where-- that we really try to avoid with the model factory is like Training exists because there's a training team now, right? There's people, or like people in training decide to focus on like a training effort. but what you really want is engineering and scale of experiments that allows for a much more continuous spectrum that you don't, you have infinite stages. Now, we're not there. Compute's not there. Organization design is not there for it yet. but I think we'll get there. we'll look back on a couple of years and be like, “Oh my God, it was so cute that we did our training data like this in such a like naïve way. Like we barely ordered it. We didn't really do a good job at likeCurriculum, Auto Research, and New ObjectivesVibhu [00:48:48]: The building that curriculum will get you that in the industry.Eiso Kant [00:48:51]: And I'll confirm that, when I talk to some researchers that this is a lot of the focus now is like how does training change and what is the next objective other than, next token prediction. I assume you don't have the answers, but you have some ideas.Vibhu [00:49:02]: We have some ideas. We're not ready to talk about it yet.Eiso Kant [00:49:05]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:49:05]: We've been working on them for years, and I think that's the one thing that's also like you asked earlier about, like what's not obvious about building a foundation model company is that you are constantly balancing the table stakes work, the recipe worksEiso Kant [00:49:19]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:49:19]: Versus like your, my crazyEiso Kant [00:49:22]: Pure researchVibhu [00:49:22]: Breakthrough.Eiso Kant [00:49:22]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:49:22]: Pure research and finding that balance and adjusting the percentage to it based on where you are in the race is really important.Eiso Kant [00:49:31]: I mean, so like, this is a nice way. I was gonna bring up auto research at some pointVibhu [00:49:35]: YesEiso Kant [00:49:35]: As another Andrej invention, or coinage, which is like, I honestly, like how many objective functions can there be, right? Like just try 1,000 of them, set it running, whatever.Vibhu [00:49:47]: Man, it's alsoEiso Kant [00:49:48]: Like what you're looking for. You're looking for loss curves like that, likeVibhu [00:49:51]: It's also a thing people take bets on, right? When you say more Neo labs, you're doing a version of we'll do foundation models, scale them up, next token predictors. A lot of other Neo labs that we see want to take a completely different approach, right? At some level, you're right. It's all, compute efficiency, and that's the net objective. But some are okay, different architecture, like vastly different amounts of compute spend. So some are different. They're not justEiso Kant [00:50:19]: YeahVibhu [00:50:19]: They're like, 99% not balancing, here's the vanilla and scale up. They're 99% on, here's novel research that'll change everything.Eiso Kant [00:50:27]: And I think, Luke, I think you. It depends when you started as well, right?Pure Research vs. Table StakesVibhu [00:50:30]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:50:30]: When we started, like the novel thing we did was reinforcement learning on code. No long- that's no longer novel by far, but we were like, - that's where we obsessed over when no one believed in RL. So you have to when you start the company, you have to have your own idea. You have to have something that's different that allows you to speed up, right? For us, it was RL to LLMs that later became common, like, Knowledge. But in the beginning, it wasn'tVibhu [00:50:53]: It's cool. this was like your original 2023 blogEiso Kant [00:50:57]: YeahVibhu [00:50:57]: Of purpose.Eiso Kant [00:50:58]: Yeah.Vibhu [00:50:59]: And like you do lay it all out here.Eiso Kant [00:51:01]: We laidVibhu [00:51:01]: The blog is pretty underrated, right? The whole RL on code was very early on.Eiso Kant [00:51:06]: Very early. And even we had to argue with people, like we say here things like to push beyond current capability, to train your own foundation model. We had to argue with people that it mattered that you had your own like, base model. you can fine-tune your way to success, right? major capabilities emerge from training a base model made accurate and useful during fine-tuning.Vibhu [00:51:23]: Which like, for perspective at the time, we knew closed models, OpenAI, Anthropic were huge. The open models we had were like Mistral 7B, a 30B, a 70B.Eiso Kant [00:51:35]: When weVibhu [00:51:35]: YeahEiso Kant [00:51:36]: The date on this thing is wrong. When we published this, it was April 2023. I think this was justVibhu [00:51:42]: YeahEiso Kant [00:51:42]: Happened on a migration, probably found it on archive.org.Vibhu [00:51:45]: Mistral.Eiso Kant [00:51:46]: Mistral had started, we started on the same month, right?Vibhu [00:51:49]: Yeah.Eiso Kant [00:51:49]: So this wasn't even, there was only, I think, Llama out at the timeVibhu [00:51:52]: SnellEiso Kant [00:51:52]: And that's it, right? And so, but I agree. I think we wan

What if your MCP server shipped with its own manual? Angie Jones, VP of Developer Experience at the Agentic AI Foundation, joins William and Eyvonne to break down the Skills Over MCP working group effort, which delivers Agent Skills through MCP’s existing resources primitive (think voice over IP, not skills versus MCP). Angie shares her... Read more »

What if your MCP server shipped with its own manual? Angie Jones, VP of Developer Experience at the Agentic AI Foundation, joins William and Eyvonne to break down the Skills Over MCP working group effort, which delivers Agent Skills through MCP’s existing resources primitive (think voice over IP, not skills versus MCP). Angie shares her... Read more »

In this Sponsor Spotlight episode, Jeff Steadman flies solo and welcomes Greg Danyi, co-founder and CTO of P0 Security, to the show. Greg walks through P0's approach to runtime access control, covering how it applies to humans, non-human identities, and AI agents alike. The conversation digs into the difference between authentication and authorization, why zero standing privilege is more achievable now than before agentic adoption took hold, and how dynamic, evidence-based policies can reduce reliance on manual approvals. Greg also shares real examples, including row-level access control for data lakes and a CRM mishap that shows how easily agents can misinterpret intent. The episode closes with a look at where enterprise AI agent governance may be headed over the next few years, plus a lighter conversation about explaining IAM to a 10-year-old. This episode is made possible through the generous support of P0 Security as part of IDAC's nonprofit Sponsor Spotlight series. Learn more at p0.dev/idac.Connect with Greg (Gergely): https://www.linkedin.com/in/gergely-danyi/Learn more about P0: https://p0.dev/idac/Connect with us on LinkedIn:Jim McDonald: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimmcdonaldpmp/Jeff Steadman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffsteadman/Visit the show on the web at http://idacpodcast.com00:00 - Introduction and sponsor acknowledgment01:13 - Greg Danyi's path into IAM02:18 - What P0 Security solves for03:21 - Where P0 fits versus PAM and IGA04:46 - Agentic identity as a driver of adoption05:27 - MCP servers and unpredictable agent actions07:10 - Defining runtime access control08:50 - How authentication and authorization work together09:07 - Standing access versus expressed intent10:16 - Zero standing privilege in practice12:27 - Agentic identity as a distinct identity class19:24 - Automated evidence for approvals20:42 - Walking through a support agent example22:13 - Row-level access control for data lakes23:35 - Dynamic roles explained29:55 - CRUD risks and underestimated concerns31:32 - Human intent and giving agents clear direction36:32 - Where enterprise AI agent governance is headed39:36 - Advice for CIOs and CISOs getting started41:15 - Explaining IAM to a 10-year-old42:29 - Board games, dice, and calculated risk44:00 - Closing thoughts and where to learn moreKeywords: IDAC, Identity at the Center, Jeff Steadman, Jim McDonald, Greg Danyi, P0 Security, runtime access control, agentic identity, zero standing privilege, non-human identity, authentication, authorization, IAM podcast

In this episode of Future Finance, host Paul Barnhurst and co-host Glenn Hopper are joined by guest Alex Brower, co-founder and CEO of QFlow.ai, to explore why forecasting problems often begin with the data layer. They discuss data plumbing, semantic alignment, Model Context Protocols (MCPs), vibe coding, and how finance and go-to-market teams can work from shared definitions to improve forecast quality and analysis.Alex Brower is the co-founder and CEO of QFlow.ai, helping finance and go-to-market teams connect data, improve forecast accuracy, and boost analyst productivity by up to five times. He previously led finance and marketing at high-growth tech firms like AppTelligent (acquired by VMware) and Cloud Academy (acquired by QA).In this episode, you will discover:How data hygiene and shared definitions improve forecastingWhy unified data alone does not solve business alignment issuesMCP vs semantic layers for reliable analysisThe risks of untested AI-generated analysisWhy AI cost and governance matterAlex explains how QFlow helps companies prepare data, run planning workflows, and turn analysis into board-ready stories.Follow Alex:Website: https://qflow.ai/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexbrower/Follow Glenn:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiiiFollow Paul:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguyFollow QFlow.ai:Website - https://bit.ly/4i1EkjgFuture Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai. Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.In Today's Episode:[00:00] – Introduction[02:15] – Data & Forecasting Challenges[06:43] – MCP vs Semantic Layers[09:55] – AI Coding Risks[15:52] – QFlow Data Preparation[18:10] – Planning & Business Insights[20:51] – Closing Thoughts

Topics covered in this episode: django-orjson Best Django Redis configuration for speed and size Linus Torvalds puts the foot down against Anti-AI Kernel Maintainers Django Steering Council backs the Triptych Project Extras Joke Watch on YouTube About the show Sponsored by us! Support our work through: Our courses at Talk Python Consulting from Six Feet Up Connect with the hosts Michael: Mastodon / BlueSky / X / LinkedIn Calvin: Mastodon / BlueSky / X / LinkedIn Show: Mastodon / BlueSky / X Join us on YouTube at pythonbytes.fm/live to be part of the audience. Usually Tuesday at 7am PT. Older video versions available there too. Michael #1: django-orjson Adam Johnson dropped django-orjson - drop-in replacements for the Django and DRF pieces that touch JSON, swapping stdlib json for orjson, the Rust-based library. Headline numbers: 10x faster serialization, 2x faster deserialization. The interesting question is why this needs to be a package at all. pip install orjson is the easy part. Adam's actual pitch: adopting it "isn't easy, especially when your framework uses json in many different parts." Django scatters JSON across JsonResponse, the test client and test case classes, the json_script template tag, and more. There's no single hook to grab, so you get a library that catches them all. Adam is refreshingly honest about the scale of the win. His words: "While database queries tend to dominate the typical Django application's runtime, the time spent in serialization and deserialization can still be significant." He calls it "a nearly free performance win" - not "this will 10x your app." That's a claim about cost, not magnitude, and it's worth keeping those straight. Worth flagging what the post doesn't cover: caveats. There are none in the article, but orjson has real ones. Django and Flask both render datetimes as RFC 822 HTTP-date (Wed, 15 Jul 2026 12:00:00 GMT); orjson does ISO 8601. It can't do ensure_ascii, it rejects NaN and Infinity (which stdlib happily emits), and it raises on Decimal. If you've got a JS client parsing dates, that's a wire-format change. Who should actually take this? If you're a DRF shop shoveling JSON all day, yes - it's cheap and it's real. If your app mostly renders HTML templates, you're optimizing a slice of runtime that's already near zero. The problem Adam's package solves doesn't exist in Flask or Quart. They already centralize every JSON operation - jsonify, request.get_json(), the test client, the |tojson filter - behind one provider object at app.json. So there's no library to install. It's about ten lines: import orjson from quart.json.provider import JSONProvider # or flask.json.provider class OrjsonProvider(JSONProvider): def dumps(self, obj, **kwargs) -> str: return orjson.dumps(obj).decode() # provider must return str def loads(self, s, **kwargs): return orjson.loads(s) app.json = OrjsonProvider(app) The numbers on talkpython.fm Evaluated it, measured it, and skipped it. The biggest JSON payload we serve is our MCP server returning a cached episode transcript, about 139 KB. Swapping the provider saves 0.119 milliseconds per request. That total response takes 1.1 ms We got 4.1x, not 10x - and the reason is the good lesson. Payload shape decides your speedup. The 10x is for structure-heavy data, lots of small keys where stdlib burns time in Python-level dispatch per item. Our hot payload is one giant transcript string, so the work is escaping and memcpy Calvin #2: Best Django Redis configuration for speed and size Peter Bengtsson revisits a classic: his 2017 "Fastest Redis configuration for Django" benchmark now has a 2026 update posted this week. The 2017 post pitted django-redis serializers (json, ujson, msgpack, pickle) and compressors (zlib, lzma) against each other; conclusion was msgpack + zlib as the sweet spot - avoid the json serializer, it's fat and slow. The 2026 update narrows focus to just compressors: default (no compression), zlib, lzma, and newcomer zstd. New results: lzma compresses best but is slowest; zstd is the fastest compressor on Ubuntu; differences between them are very small. Big takeaway across both: compression buys you a lot of space (2–3.5x smaller) for very little speed cost - worth it for Redis where memory is the constraint. Caveat from the author: results depend heavily on your data - his test stores short strings of numbers, so benchmark your own workload. Michael #3: Linus Torvalds puts the foot down against Anti-AI Kernel Maintainers Write up on Ars. Really good coverage by Maximillian: Time to wake up (for some) Torvalds said that “Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it. Or just walk away.” I agree with Max, putting your head in the sand and waiting for AI to go away will likely mean you won't be working professionally in software development in the coming years. The statement came amid a lengthy thread arguing about the use of Sashiko, an “agentic Linux kernel code review system” that its creators claim can, in tests, independently find 53.6 percent of the bugs that would end up being fixed by human coders in later commits. “We're not forcing anybody to use [LLM tools], but I will very loudly ignore people who try to argue against other people from using it,” Torvalds said. “Anybody who points to the problems at AI had better be looking in the mirror and pointing at themselves at the same time,” Torvalds wrote. Calvin #4: Django Steering Council backs the Triptych Project Django Steering Council issued a Letter of Collaboration backing Carson Gross & Alex Petros's funding bid for the Triptych Project - three proposals to make HTML more expressive natively, in every browser. The three additions: PUT/PATCH/DELETE methods for forms, button actions (buttons that fire HTTP requests without a wrapping form), and partial page replacement. Distills the core ideas from HTMX/Unpoly/Turbo into the HTML standard itself - no JS, no library, nothing to ship or maintain. Current focus is button actions (WHATWG #12330): Logout instead of wrapping a button in a form. Relevant to Django directly - think the admin submit row and disguised delete links; Django 6.0's template partials were already inspired by these patterns. How to help: companies can send non-binding letters of support on letterhead; individuals can read the proposals and weigh in on the WHATWG issues. Extras Calvin: DOOMQL - A playable first-person shooter whose framebuffer is a SQL query. Michael: Granian 2.7.9 fixes WSGI threadpool scheduler starvation/underscaling Welcome Calvin post Joke: Solving all bugs

Everyone's plugging Meta, Google, and LinkedIn straight into AI via MCP and asking it where to spend their next ad dollar. Matt Chanella breaks down why that's exactly backwards — and why AI is going to make your ads more expensive, not more effective.In this episode of B2B Reality Check, Matt unpacks the two traps every B2B ad team falls into when they outsource strategy to AI:→ AI generates infinite creative variations — far more than you could ever run to statistical significance→ AI ad reporting always defaults to raw conversion volume, with zero context on campaign goals, funnel stage, or lead qualityMatt walks through why offline conversion tracking is the bare minimum, how to structure your AI context (project files, skills, clean conversion hierarchy) before you ever ask it to analyze spend, and why AI should be a thinking partner — not the decision-maker — for your ad strategy.In this episode:Why lower barriers to entry for AI-generated ads don't mean better ad performanceThe statistical significance problem with AI-generated creative testingWhy AI ad reporting can't distinguish high-intent conversions from low-intent ones (scroll depth, newsletter signups vs. booked meetings)How to give AI the right context before letting it touch your ad reportingWhy not every campaign (YouTube pre-roll, CTV, LinkedIn thought leadership) is designed for direct responseFAQQ: Can AI accurately tell me where to spend my next ad dollar?A: No — AI tools connected to your ad platforms track conversion volume and signal, but they can't tell you conversion quality: how many conversions become booked meetings, opportunities, or closed deals.Q: Why shouldn't I let AI generate all my ad creative variations?A: AI can produce far more creative iterations than you could ever run to statistical significance. Without a proper testing ramp and enough audience/budget to reach significance, you can't actually determine a winning message.Q: What's the minimum conversion tracking needed before using AI for ad strategy?A: Offline conversion tracking is the minimally viable setup — and even then, it should only be used for reporting, not for AI to dictate strategy.Q: Why does AI ad reporting always favor lead-gen campaigns?A: AI has no context on campaign objectives, measurement methodology (multi-touch, influenced, incrementality), or whether a campaign was designed for direct response versus brand consideration (the 95-5 principle). It defaults to whichever campaign produced the most raw conversions.Q: How do I set AI up correctly before using it for ad reporting?A: Build a project or skill collection with full context on your ad goals, objectives, segmentation, targeting, and measurement approach — before you ever ask it to analyze performance.

Linus delivers a blunt verdict on AI in the Linux kernel, Chris finds the remote Linux desktop that finally works, and Brent gives his notes system a serious rebuild.Sponsored By:Jupiter Party Annual Membership: Put your support on automatic with our annual plan, and get one month of membership for free!Managed Nebula: Meet Managed Nebula from Defined Networking. A decentralized VPN built on the open-source Nebula platform that we love.Support LINUX UnpluggedLinks:Web Boost — Send us a boost via sats or USD

On episode 524 James and Frank dive into the new .NET MAUI developer stack—covering the MAUI CLI/Maui Doctor that auto-provisions SDKs and emulators, the Maui Sherpa GUI for device/Xcode/provisioning management, and DevFlow's MCP server that lets AI agents inspect, interact with and automatically test apps (closing the loop). They also highlight the VS Code MAUI agent/skills, profiling tools, and the shift to core CLR in .NET 11 with performance tradeoffs to watch. Follow Us Frank: Twitter, Blog, GitHub James: Twitter, Blog, GitHub Merge Conflict: Twitter, Facebook, Website, Chat on Discord Music : Amethyst Seer - Citrine by Adventureface ⭐⭐ Review Us ⭐⭐ Machine transcription available on http://mergeconflict.fm

Send us Fan MailLEARN THE CAPITAL RAISING STRATEGIES AND FRAMEWORKS used by alternative asset professionals: https://go.fundraisecapital.co/applyThis episode is brought to you by Reef Pass | Serial Acquisition Investors: Reef Pass Investors has spent the last 10 years focused on partnering with founders to launch and build long-term holding companies, and has a proven track record doing exactly that.To reach out to Reef Pass Investors, email holdcofounders@reefpassinvestors.comHow do I build a data edge with no team or budget?Matt Ober's first move: go all in on Claude and ensure every tool has an MCP connection. Fund admin, LP communications, compliance, capital calls, unified through MCP. Operations automate and you return to what you are paid to do.In this episode of Making Billions, Ryan Miller sits down with Matt Ober, General Partner at Social Leverage. Their riveting conversation covers building fund data infrastructure from nothing using MCP-connected tools! Separating alpha data from beta data before spending a dollar & why most AI fundraising tools are gimmicks. They discuss how prediction markets are becoming the most important new institutional signal, and the single discipline separating managers who turn data into returns from those who burn through budgets with nothing to show.What is the difference between alpha data and beta data?Alpha is a fleeting trading advantage. Beta is sticky and pays the bills. The data that was once edge is now infrastructure. The new edge is using AI to synthesize more data faster.[THE HOST]: Ryan Miller is a fund manager, capital strategist, and former CFO turned angel investor in technology and energy. He is the founder of Fund Raise Capital and Aequor Capital Partners, and has mentored over 1,000 fund managers across private equity, private credit, venture capital, real estate, and alternative assets globally.[THE GUEST]: Matt Ober, General Partner at Social Leverage, the seed-stage firm with over 500 million dollars AUM and more than 150 portfolio companies. He holds the CAIA charter, one of the most rigorous credentials in alternative asset management.Subscribe on YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTOe79EXLDsROQ0z3YLnu1QQConnect with Ryan Miller:Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rcmiller1/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryanmilleroffical/X: https://x.com/_MakingBillionsWebsite: https://making-billions.com/Support the showDISCLAIMER: This podcast is for entertainment and general informational purposes only — not legal, financial, tax, or investment advice. Nothing herein constitutes a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any security or investment product. Past performance does not indicate future results. Always consult qualified legal, financial, and tax professionals before making any investment decision. NAME NOTICE: "Making Billions with Ryan Miller" reflects the profile and aspirations of guests featured — it is not a promise, projection, guarantee, or representation of any financial result, income, or outcome for any listener, viewer, or reader. Most individuals who consume this content do not raise any particular amount of capital, and many achieve no financial result whatsoever. "Fund Raise Capital" is a brand identifier only — it is not a promise, guarantee, or representation that any member, subscriber, or listener will raise capital, attract investors, or achieve any financial or professional outcome. This show does not constitute a business opportunity, franchise, investment program, or offer of any product or service of any kind. No part of this show should be construed as a solicitation for investment in any way. Guest views are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the show or host. Host and/or guests may hold positions in assets discussed. This episode may contain paid sponsorships, advertisements, or endorsements. Sponsored content is identified where...

Don’t Fade and Die in AI Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ Matt Yanchyshyn, VP AWS Marketplace, Rekha Thangelapalita, Elastic GSI Leaders; Allison McFadden, Accenture AWS Leader; and James Kang of Nvidia join Ultimate Partner. In this panel discussion, leaders from Elastic, Accenture, Nvidia, and AWS dissect the urgent shifts in the ecosystem, emphasizing that partners must adapt to AI and agentic co-selling or risk fading away completely. The conversation explores the necessity of deep co-engineering, the power of multi-product solutions in the AWS marketplace, and how automated agents are now replacing traditional human sales pipeline progression. By embracing data readiness and strategic collaboration, organizations can survive the “token maxing” era, effectively scale their enterprise opportunities, and align with NVIDIA’s five-layer strategy to dominate the new cloud landscape. https://youtu.be/zUkL4Wqsa68 Key Takeaways AI agents will automate the majority of AWS partner co-selling attachments and opportunity progressions this year. Partners who fail to embrace agentic workflows and automated governance face the existential risk of fading into obsolescence. Successful multi-product offerings require a “blood to all organs” approach that benefits the client, the ISV, the GSI, and the hyperscaler simultaneously. Nvidia’s “five-layer cake” model emphasizes that successful outcomes at the application layer automatically drive growth for all underlying infrastructure. The “token maxing” phenomenon is forcing enterprises to seek cost-effective, open-model alternatives to scale their generative AI securely. Integrating GSIs and ISVs on the AWS marketplace significantly increases enterprise deal sizes and long-term customer renewal rates. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags strategic collaboration agreement, data readiness engine, agentic co-sell, semantic layer, token maxing, five layer cake, accelerated computing platform, open models, cloud consumption, multi-product solutions, partner central agents, propensity data, automated opportunity progression, generative AI governance Transcript Matt Y and Panel Audio Podcast [00:00:00] Vince Menzione: You have a choice. You can embrace them and figure it out and get governance and, and make your data available. Um, use the partner, central agent, move to Agen Co-sell, or you can fade and die. [00:00:11] Vince Menzione: You can feel it happening. The ecosystem is shifting beneath us, the way Hyperscalers are partnering, how AI is remaking the channel and what it means to win in 2026. [00:00:22] Vince Menzione: Welcome to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. I’m Vince Menzi. Own your host. And each week I sit down with leaders at the intersection of technology, partnerships and outcomes. The voices shaping how ecosystems actually work. We talk about what’s real, what’s changing, and what it takes to lead in this era where the partner channel isn’t just part of the strategy. [00:00:44] Vince Menzione: It is the strategy because [00:00:46] Vince Menzione: being in the room changes everything. Let’s start. [00:00:51] Vince Menzione: We’ve got some amazing leaders joining us. So I think probably for a little bit of context, maybe just start with Rika. You can introduce yourself, your role and, uh, what, what you’ve been doing at Elastic. Yeah. [00:01:03] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, sounds great. [00:01:04] Rekha Thangellapalli: Hi everyone. I’m Reka and I lead GSI Alliances at Elastic. Um, for the past 14 years, I’ve had the pleasure of building different kinds of partner ecosystems across companies such as SAP. MuleSoft, Salesforce, Coupa, and now Elastic. Um, I wanna thank Ultimate partner and Vince for having us here today. Thank you and the panel of these incredible speakers for joining me on stage. [00:01:31] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, very excited for the conversation today. [00:01:33] Vince Menzione: We love Elastic, and you’ve had some of your other leaders on stage at other events. As such, the quality of your leadership team is amazing. Thank you. [00:01:42] Rekha Thangellapalli: I wholeheartedly agree. [00:01:45] Allison McFadden: Excellent. Um, hello everyone. Allison McFadden. I lead our North America AWS practice at Accenture. [00:01:52] Allison McFadden: Uh, I’ve been there for five years, and truth be told, it was my first partnership role, my first formal partnership role. Uh, so I can take some tips from all of you in the room here today. Prior to that, I was 21 years with IBM, and I got into partnerships because my last role at IBM was actually trying to build. [00:02:14] Allison McFadden: Linux business on the mainframe, and I had to have partners. I had to have partners to help me with workloads to run there. So I kind of learned, uh, trial by fire. But I’m excited for the conversation today. Excited to be in this room and excited to talk about what we’re doing with, uh, elastic. Thank you. [00:02:34] James Kang: Uh, my name is James Kang. Nice to see and meet everyone here. Vince, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you [00:02:38] Vince Menzione: for being here. [00:02:39] James Kang: Um, I’m with Nvidia, so I help manage the AWS partnership at Nvidia all up. Um, I guess fun fact, I’m former AWS and so I see a lot of very familiar faces here in the front row. Uh, former colleagues and then current friends. [00:02:56] James Kang: And so, uh, looking forward to the conversation. [00:02:59] Vince Menzione: Great. Well, we’ll start with an easy tia. Matt. This is not directed to you, directed to the others. So what does a successful AWS partnership look like from your C? So we’ll start with Eureka. [00:03:09] Rekha Thangellapalli: Sure. So from an ISV perspective, I think we really are looking at three things. [00:03:15] Rekha Thangellapalli: Uh, mutual investment building together. And scaling together. So when we talk about mutual investment, elastic recently signed a five-year SCA or strategic collaboration agreement with AWS. And while that is a significant milestone in our partnership, for us, what matters more is what it represents, and that is really a long-term commitment from both companies. [00:03:39] Rekha Thangellapalli: Towards product engineering, um, and joint go to market initiatives to deliver value to customers over time. And that’s what we see is that the best partnerships really compound and they build upon each other every year. Um, they don’t necessarily kind of reset every year. Um, next we talk about building together. [00:03:59] Rekha Thangellapalli: So, um. When we talk about joint solutions, we want to deliver solutions that are better together and the customers have to see us that way. And so whether it’s search, observability, or security, we’re looking at taking to market solutions that we can’t or necessarily don’t wanna take on our own. And finally we talk about scaling together. [00:04:22] Rekha Thangellapalli: And this is where marketplace, for instance, plays a big role, um, when customers can draw down on their cloud commitments, transact online and go from, you know, pilot to enterprise scale adoption in hours, not days. Um, this is when really everyone wins. Um, and this is also where partners like Accenture play a critical role. [00:04:47] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, you know, the incredible amount of expertise that they bring, uh, the managed services capabilities and, um, their data assets actually play a huge role in having our customers realize that value faster. And, um, like Vince mentioned, at the end of the day, best partnerships are all all about creating kind of that. [00:05:07] Rekha Thangellapalli: Self-sustaining flywheel. And so it starts with investing together, building something unique, and having the customers realize that success faster because that success is really the only thing that’s gonna keep that flywheel going for everyone involved. I [00:05:26] Vince Menzione: absolutely. [00:05:26] Allison McFadden: Okay, amazing. I’m gonna riff off a few things Ika said, but from a GSI perspective. [00:05:32] Allison McFadden: A relationship with a WSA successful relationship with AWS looks slightly different. Um, so I think the first thing that we think of in the GSI Community common thread is that the client outcome and delivering value for clients is what we, what we’re striving for. Um, and so the partnership with AWS in that case, um, um, it has to, it has to. [00:06:01] Allison McFadden: Look like one team in front of our clients. So we have to show up indistinguishable, and that’s with AWS and with an ISV partner, it has to look like one solution in front of the client, especially moments that matter. So board meetings, um, you know, the time we’re gonna sign a deal, like we have to look like one team, uh, and keep our our client outcome, um, first and foremost in mind. [00:06:24] Allison McFadden: The second thing, and this is I think where the magic of all the people in this room comes into play. We can have as many discussions at a CEO level as we want. And if our client teams on the ground are not working together, it falls apart. Falls apart directly in front of the client. Yes. And that is a really hard thing to do. [00:06:45] Allison McFadden: So I’m passionate about the alliance work because that that work is what makes it happen at the corporate level. [00:06:53] James Kang: Cool. Um. I’ll start here. So in Nvidia is a accelerated computing platform company. Um, if you asked. Anyone on the, on the street about a year ago, what is ai? A lot of times they would say AI is, is open ai, or it’s philanthropic. [00:07:12] James Kang: Um, Jensen and I’ll, I’ll reference Jensen a lot today, um, because he is our leader, um, but he also sets the strategy in the direction for Nvidia. He talks a lot about AI in the metaphor of a five layer cake. And in terms of the five layer cake, you start off with the foundational bottom layer being power and energy, which sustains. [00:07:32] James Kang: All of our data centers, you move up the stack in terms of chips. So things think of Foxconn, think of TSMC. Next you have the infrastructure layer. So obvious choice is AWS, and then you get to the models where you do have the philanthropics and the open ais. But finally in at the precipice, you have the application layer. [00:07:53] James Kang: Ultimately, the reason why I mentioned all different stacks of the layers, the five layer cake, is the fact that the application layer is the most important. And so when you think about. Partners like Elastic or ServiceNow Trend, ai, CrowdStrike. Every time you pull from the application layer and you see a success, it pulls all five different components of that layer up. [00:08:13] James Kang: And so ultimately, as I think about success, it’s it’s being able to develop these co-sell wins at the application layer and really demonstrating that through extreme co-engineering and co-design with all the different application. Infrastructure, power and energy layers in mind. Um, Jensen also likes to think of himself not only as the CEO and founder, but also as the, the chief Marketing Officer. [00:08:35] James Kang: We are a very event driven company, and so at our big events like GTC or at big industry events like CES or Computex, he likes to show up on the biggest stage, biggest stages and showcase the partnerships with not only ISVs and GSIs, but also with end customers. And so that’s what I think about when I think of SA success. [00:08:56] Vince Menzione: That’s a really good point. You talked about, Allison, you talked about having an alliance strategy, or at least you teed it up, so I thought maybe we would go there for a second. Right? Like, what does a great alliance strategy look like and why is it important to the success of the partnership? [00:09:11] Allison McFadden: Man, I, uh, I have so many opinions on this. [00:09:13] Allison McFadden: We could probably be up here all day. That’s [00:09:15] Vince Menzione: okay. [00:09:16] Allison McFadden: Um, no, I think. Uh, there, there are a couple things, and the first one that comes to mind is focus. We cannot be all things to all people. Um, so when it comes to think about some of the, the work we’re doing with Elastic, we have a very, very clear point of view on what client problem we’re solving, what clients we want to talk to. [00:09:38] Allison McFadden: It helps if, um, from an ISV perspective, if there’s a very clear fit in. The Accenture portfolio or whatever, you know, SI consulting partner. You’re working with a very clear fit in the portfolio and we know what we’re not gonna go after, what we’re not gonna spend our time on because we have, we have this tendency, there’s millions of people. [00:10:00] Allison McFadden: The ecosystem chart that, you know, Vince, you showed up there, there’s so many connections. There’s probably more connections there than there are atoms in the universe, right? So, um. Defining what we do together and what we don’t do together is the first thing that pops to my mind. [00:10:19] Vince Menzione: Reka, do you have a perspective on it since we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk next about what you’ve done together, but, and I also wanna get mass perspective as a hyperscaler partner here as well. [00:10:29] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, I mean from my perspective, I, I’m gonna, you know, kinda echo what Allison said is to be just maniacally focused. Yep. Um, because, especially from my perspective, so Elastic has three different solutions, right? We’ve got search, we’ve got observability, we’ve got security that map to completely different business units within Accenture. [00:10:47] Rekha Thangellapalli: And of course Accenture does a lot of things. And so, you know, when we first came together it was like. Okay, what are we gonna focus on? What industries are we gonna go after? Which segments are we gonna go after? Which customers, you know, um, outcomes are we trying to solve? And I think that sort of maniacal focus is the number one contributing factor to, to the fact that I’m like, up here on stage today. [00:11:12] Rekha Thangellapalli: Great. [00:11:14] Vince Menzione: Matt? Perspective? [00:11:16] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah, I, I, I guess I was trying to. To add something, uh, additional from an AWS perspective, uh, when it comes to, you know, what does a great alliance look like? Uh, AWS is obsessed with data, you know, in data we trust. And, and so the best, um, and, and this goes sales business problem, and it’s not just the engineering teams. [00:11:34] Matt Yanchyshyn: And so, uh, you know, Accenture does a good job of this elastic, definitely. And if you can come to the table with, um, quantifiable proof of the value of customer outcomes and partnerships. Um, you’ll win all the time and it’ll be a durable relationship with AWS ’cause we really are this data obsessed company and, and even the most senior sales leaders. [00:11:54] Matt Yanchyshyn: Uh, and so what I mean by that specifically is like if you, if you can show like your a RR to land an a RR conversion ratio, like in in numerical format, it’ll light up our sales leaders and, and they’ll be all, and they will co-sell with you all day long. If you can show the, I mentioned this earlier, like the AWS service, uh, whether you’re consulting company or, um, elastic and, and how the shape of customer accounts change positively when we work together. [00:12:15] Matt Yanchyshyn: That type of sort of quantifiable data works particularly well from an alliance perspective. With AWS as a partner, we, we really are like this data in sort of results out company. Um, so I, yeah, that’s just adding to the great points that were already made. I would say specific to AWS that that’s key. [00:12:30] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah. And I’m gonna bring up one more thing. I want to dive in on the, the joint value proposition, but you mentioned something that made a lot of sense and resonated to me about the organizations once you get out of partner, the partner world that we all know and love. Mm-hmm. Once you get down into a field organization or account management organization. [00:12:49] Matt Yanchyshyn: Not as much understanding and really organizations do a bad job here, honestly, in terms of enabling the field organizations. Do you agree? [00:12:58] Allison McFadden: I agree because I, I agree. And, um, you know, I think that’s one of the things, and, and I, I, when I joined Accenture, what we had was a lot of wicked smart architects delivering programs to clients in the field. [00:13:15] Allison McFadden: Very smart, very deep in AWS knowledge. Um, and that was awesome for the 10 clients they were staffed on and to get that understanding of how AWS works and I dream about lar, right? Like, this is a good, you know, but that takes real effort and real work. Yeah. And it’s, it’s um, almost like being a language translator. [00:13:37] Allison McFadden: Yes. For me. Yeah. So, you know, I had to deeply learn AWS so that I could. [00:13:42] Rekha Thangellapalli: Sure. [00:13:42] Allison McFadden: Teach my account teams. My account teams are really smart. They know who they’re selling to. They know their customers. They know what their customers need. They do not know what AWS has to offer always because they’ve got 20 partners lining up to try to tell their stories. [00:13:57] Allison McFadden: Um, they don’t know how to ask of the AWS team or the elastic team or the Nvidia team. Yeah. What they need [00:14:02] Vince Menzione: this co-selling piece. Yeah. [00:14:04] Allison McFadden: And so that is where, um. We had to build that muscle even around our AWS practice, which was a huge practice at Accenture, but we didn’t necessarily surround it with that kind of enablement and um, almost deal coaching layer. [00:14:21] Vince Menzione: So Elastic and Accenture came together. I dunno which one of you wants to lead this part of the conversation, but you will, right? Yeah. So tell us about the genesis of this and why. And a lot of people dunno what Elastic does, but you do some really incredible work. Like I, somebody told me one day was like, oh, you know, Uber, like, that’s elastic, powering all that. [00:14:41] Vince Menzione: Like, we don’t think about that. That the engines that you have and the, the backend to the customers, huge customers. [00:14:48] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so when AWS launched this feature last, um, reinvent where basically it allowed, you know, channel partners such as Accenture to be able to bundle up their services, their data assets with an ISV solution and put it on marketplace, um, you know, Accenture and Elastic immediately saw an opportunity. [00:15:09] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, at the time most customers were doing gen ai. But they were running into the same challenge, which was that their data just was not ready. And by the way, this is a problem we were solving. Outside of marketplace. I think the, the feature that you guys launched just gave us a way to package it up and to be able to create this repeatable solution, which we call data readiness engine for gen ai and put it on marketplace. [00:15:40] Rekha Thangellapalli: And, um, this to me was a success because. Each company had a clear reason to invest. Um, so for Accenture, they were able to, you know, create a very differentiated services led offering. Uh, for Elastic, we were able to expand on our AI story. And for AWS, um, you know, it drives marketplace adoption, increases cloud consumption, all of that great stuff. [00:16:07] Rekha Thangellapalli: And customers, of course get. A solution to a very real problem that, that they were having. Um, and you know, the surprising part for me going through that journey was that, um. The pitching, the idea, getting the budget, getting the executive sponsorship was actually the easy part. The hard part was getting all three companies to come together, uh, to go from idea to launch in a very ambitious timeline of six weeks. [00:16:37] Rekha Thangellapalli: Nice. And so, you know, this was very much like. Doesn’t matter your title. We’re rolling up our sleeves and we are on this outcome together. Um, and so we literally built a RACI matrix, a project plan, and you know, we had daily standup calls for six weeks where literally. At least one person from each three of these companies called in, you know, got rid of any blockers and we made sure we were on target for that timeline. [00:17:07] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, and you know, at the end we had a successful launch. But I think my favorite part about the story is the impact that we’re having and, um. My favorite story comes from a global pharmaceutical company that, you know, had basically nine petabytes of data spread across six different continents. Wow. And by working with Accenture and Elastic, they were able to build that trusted foundation that their AI and their agents can, you know, kind of safely tap into and be accessible at scale. [00:17:41] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, so that’s my version. Allison. [00:17:44] Allison McFadden: Yeah. Well, I don’t have a lot to add. I just, I would say this is a good example of a couple of principles, right? One is having a forcing function is never a bad idea. Sign up for a big event, sign up. I’m like, I’m here with my, you know, Nvidia guys saying, sign up for the event. [00:17:58] Allison McFadden: It’ll make you move quick, right? [00:18:00] Audience Member: Yes. [00:18:00] Allison McFadden: Um, so that is one, but two, one of my mentors once told me, when you’re designing any kind of, you know, offering go to market motion, it has to get blood to all organs. If it does not get blood to all organs, it does not go [00:18:14] Vince Menzione: nice. [00:18:14] Allison McFadden: Um, [00:18:14] Vince Menzione: I love that analogy. [00:18:15] Allison McFadden: Oh, I love it. And I can talk all day. [00:18:17] Allison McFadden: That guy was brilliant. I love him. But, um, no, and, and so Elastic did a really nice job of bringing the tech to the table. Um, our team has to trust in that technology and its ability to scale, right? Um, because at Accenture we have to be able to deploy across 700,000 consultants. Um. And yeah, so I think those are the two, two things that really worked well here is we had, uh, trust in the technology solved a customer need. [00:18:50] Allison McFadden: Um, it drives, we don’t even talk about, like, yes, it drives marketplace revenue, but it unlocks work that we do that drives even more revenue to our AWS Friends. Right. So this is a, this is a, um, product that’s getting your data ready for AG agentic. It’s a messy problem that everyone’s dealing with, and it removes blockers for clients and it unlocks more, you know, ag agentic work on top of that. [00:19:15] Allison McFadden: So, blood to all organs. [00:19:17] Vince Menzione: So, was that the proposal going forward to say we need to have, we need to have trust in the solution. We need to drive significant revenue. It needs to be something all of our, you know, seven, 700,000 people. Can be a part of and help drive? Is that how you think about? [00:19:32] Allison McFadden: Yeah, and for us right now, um, it’s an interesting time for Accenture. [00:19:36] Allison McFadden: Our clients are asking a lot of us, and what it does is it having some of these accelerators helps us deliver cheaper, better, faster to our clients, which is what they’re demanding of us right now. Um, so it’s an accelerator to client outcomes. [00:19:55] Vince Menzione: James, what is NVIDIA’s role and how do, how do you enter the equation here? [00:20:00] James Kang: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s a good question. Um, I, I would say that Nvidia is probably one of the most misunderstood organizations in the world. Um, despite the, uh, the market capitalization in the valuation of the company, we have a very tiny organization. Um, what I mean by that is, um, if you think about. [00:20:20] James Kang: Salesforces and field sales organizations. Um, we’ll take Salesforce as the account or the customer. As an example, we have one account manager at NVIDIA that no, not only covers and is responsible for the relationship with Salesforce, um, but also manages. Automation Anywhere as well as DocuSign. Whereas at AWS, in contrast, like there are full armies and teams Yeah. [00:20:45] James Kang: That are supporting the Salesforce relationship. And so as you think about partnering and working with Nvidia, the focus has to be on really. Extreme co-design, but also being very prescriptive in terms of what are the very specific customer outcomes that we are solving for. And the guidance that I would give is bring in Nvidia into that equation and that conversation as early as possible because that [00:21:10] James Kang: co-engineering and co-design needs to be part of the foundational building blocks in order for you to come out with a end solution that checks all those different requirements. [00:21:20] James Kang: And so I think. Again, like going back to Nvidia, um, we like to talk about two different types of brains. A brain one and a brain two. Uh, brain One you think about the next quarter and making sure that you’re hitting the revenue targets for the next quarter. Brain two, you think about a long-term goals and potentials looking around corners and being very strategic. [00:21:41] James Kang: The saying internally is without Brain one, there is no oxygen, but without brain two, there is no future. And everyone at NVIDIA is trained to think in that brain two mentality. [00:21:52] Vince Menzione: Wow, Matt. [00:21:54] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah, I, I was just thinking I love the blood doll organs. Uh, and so just on, on that note, um, and, and, you know, the multi-product solutions that, that you, you built together, uh, that is a really good example of blood do organs because like we all know, that’s how customers buy. [00:22:07] Matt Yanchyshyn: They, they buy solutions and increasingly they’re looking for combinations of ISV, sometimes multiple products from multiple ISVs with services. Uh, often they’re buying it through a resell motion. You know, and they, and, and so that from a customer perspective, they want a single place to go. And so that’s the multi-product solution. [00:22:24] Matt Yanchyshyn: They wanna find everything they need, they need Accenture, they need Elastic to solve a specific solution. And I think where that’s headed is even more specific listings, like with AI powered listing experience, like, you know, elastic Plus Accenture for, I’ll make something up like a manufacturing workload. [00:22:37] Matt Yanchyshyn: And so this solution based. Uh, sort of buying is, is very customer centric. It’s what customers want. We all know that. But that’s, that’s the customer sort of organ, I guess. Um, but then, you know, you all have SCAs and those SCAs have marketplace commits. It helps if that gets transacted through marketplace helps the AWS relationship, you know that that’s an organ. [00:22:55] Matt Yanchyshyn: It’s the relationship. It’s, it’s the commercial construct and that you have, uh, that that’s another organ. You’re marketing people. They, that’s another organ. They don’t wanna land, uh, leads on a static marketing page. They wanna land a lead on a, a storefront with a multi-product solution that can actually convert and that you can actually buy it through that. [00:23:12] Matt Yanchyshyn: So the marketing person’s happy because they, they have less churn. Uh, and then, you know, our reps are happy ’cause guess how they get paid? They retire quota when they sell Marketplace. And they, we also, Jay McMain will tell you, that’s another organ called Jay or on, on you now. Um, [00:23:27] Matt Yanchyshyn: he’ll like that. I’ll call him up and tell him that. [00:23:29] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah, [00:23:30] Matt Yanchyshyn: but he, he’ll tell you, you know, don’t believe me. Obviously, never believe Matt, believe, believe the, the data and, and his data shows that. Those deals will close faster and larger if you use marketplace. So that’s, that’s a lot of organs. That’s the whole body. Um, but you know, when you have your customer happy ’cause that’s how they wanna buy your field happy. [00:23:45] Matt Yanchyshyn: Um, and, you know, the relationship happy and you know, your marketing team happy. Uh, and, and Jay happy. Um, and, and you know, I think that multi-product construct and, and the way you kind of use it to model a partnership and the way buyers ultimately wanna buy is, is really powerful. And so I, I think it’s, you know, it’s really a manifestation of how. [00:24:04] Matt Yanchyshyn: We kind of intend and to go to market anyway. Uh, so I think, you know, and thanks for leading the way, by the way. You’re, you’re amongst the very first, so that’s great to see. [00:24:11] Matt Yanchyshyn: So these storefronts are really helping this drive, drive this. Well, [00:24:13] Matt Yanchyshyn: that’s the next evolution. Like we’re talking about the multiproduct solution. [00:24:16] Allison McFadden: I’m JJ Accenture storefront. [00:24:17] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Oh, there you go. I mean, j and j Accenture storefront. [00:24:20] Allison McFadden: We’re gonna talk about that. [00:24:20] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah. I mean, [00:24:21] Matt Yanchyshyn: Accenture also leading the way yet again with storefronts. And so I think the combination of. You know, again, I was talking a lot about conversion. Yeah. And you know, buyers know sometimes they know what they wanna buy and, but if you really wanna convert that lead, you wanna land them again, something that combines, you know, elastic Accenture’s services plus software, but in a storefront that is, you know, surrounding with just the solutions they want so they don’t need to kind of go searching. [00:24:42] Matt Yanchyshyn: So, you know, ultimately reducing that time to close, I guess, really ’cause meeting the customer where they are with what they need. [00:24:51] Matt Yanchyshyn: So we talk about co-selling a little bit. We, Jay and I talk about this all the time. We gotta keep looping Jay in here, even though he is not even in town this week, but Reko, um, what does co-sell look like inside Elastic? [00:25:02] Matt Yanchyshyn: You’ve got, we talked about an incredible leadership team. I’ve gotten meet some of your leaders. Seems like you drive, you do a good job internally driving that. Let’s talk a little bit about it. [00:25:11] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah, and this is something I’m, I’m personally very passionate about. Um, co-sell is. Very much a journey, not a destination. [00:25:20] Rekha Thangellapalli: And I think step one for us is recognizing the different partner types that we have. Because at Elastic we work with, you know, OEMs, MSPs, resale distributors, GSIs, um, and they all bring something very unique. To the customer lifecycle and they all contribute very differently within, you know, our own sales cycle and sales process. [00:25:45] Rekha Thangellapalli: And so, you know, figuring out what is the unique benefit they bring, how do we enable them? So training and enablement is a huge piece of it, and so is making sure we’ve got the right metrics to measure success. Um, I know a lot of companies look at partner sourced as the north star, and that’s great, right? [00:26:06] Rekha Thangellapalli: Because that is undeniable. You can say, Hey, that would not exist if it wasn’t for my partner team. Um, but we’ve also noticed that when we bring in GSIs, it actually increases renewal rates. It significantly increases. Um, a RR over time. Um, it expands deal sizes and so these are very real metrics that we can point to, um, beyond just the co-sell and the partner sourced number. [00:26:32] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, so for us it’s looking at it from a very holistic perspective, but also catering it towards that unique partner and making sure we’re doing everything we can to set them up for success and setting up the partnership for success. [00:26:47] Vince Menzione: So clo close win ratios, deal size and renewal rates? [00:26:52] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yes. For specifically for geos size. [00:26:54] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. [00:26:55] Vince Menzione: Very interesting. Allison, uh, what had to change internally to produce these co-selling? We talked a little bit about the field organization and enabling a, a group of, and, you know, account sellers that are very customer focused and enabling them on the co-sell side. What had to change internally to drive that? [00:27:13] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:27:14] Allison McFadden: I, I might have already alluded to this a little bit in a previous answer, but, um, creating the capacity to develop, build, and sell these solutions, um, inside of a large GSI, where billable hours is kind of the number one metric on the table. Um. Is part of the investment that we had to make within Accenture to get this done? [00:27:36] Audience Member: Yeah, [00:27:36] Allison McFadden: so expert technology time. So we have technologists that understand the elastic technology. We do similar with Nvidia, by the way, we. We released some of their time to go co-develop the solution because it has to hold technical water, right? It can’t just be a marketing pitch. It can’t just be, it has to be a real, um, what’s the there, there. [00:27:59] Allison McFadden: So in order to actually do proper co-sell, we had to release some of that time. Um, to invest in those partnerships. Um, we’ve also done similar with some industry aligned business development leaders recently, so we have freed their time up to go. Uh. Open new conversations, educate client, account teams, go to clients, have conversations. [00:28:26] Allison McFadden: Um, so that, that’s a new motion that we, uh, have just kind of recently made, um, to allow them, I love this brain one, brain two also, right? So to allow them to focus on brain two, because a lot of our time. Typically spent delivery issues, you know, getting my hours, where am I charging my time? And so just freeing up a little of that capacity to do this work, um, helps get us in this brain two mode where we’re not just living to survive. [00:28:56] Vince Menzione: I. So, Matt, you’ve removed a lot. I mean, one of the things I admire, I admire AWS for being first to market and removing the most friction in marketplace of any of the vendors. Really, truly that. You talked about some of the announcements. How does some of, how does some of this tie PC central agents propensity sales plays, MCP, how does some of this tie to how, how you’re thinking about the future? [00:29:18] Vince Menzione: And how to enable more motions like this. [00:29:20] Matt Yanchyshyn: Yeah. Well, I, I think if you know my boss, UBA Borno, uh, you’ll know that she has a maniacal focus on automation. Yeah. Um, and, uh, co-sell is increasingly automated. You know, you were asking earlier about propensity data. You can get that propensity data in addition to sales plays and, uh, opportunity scores through the partner central agents. [00:29:38] Matt Yanchyshyn: So things that used to require multiple calls to A PDM, if you’re lucky to have one. Yeah. Or a p sm. Uh, you, you can now get through, through these agents, you know, uh, tech Systems, TGS, they, they manage what, over 5,500 customer opportunities with agents that they built on top of our partner Central APIs. [00:29:55] Matt Yanchyshyn: Um, and work Span has built a whole product and business that’s right on leveraging, uh, our APIs, our capabilities to sort of tie into your CRM. So, majority of all opportunities will be progressed and managed by agents. This year at AWS, we already have a majority of all customer opportunities, all app have a partner attached and I, I took a personal goal for a majority of those partner attachments, not to happen from a human. [00:30:22] Matt Yanchyshyn: But from our solution matching engine. And how do you get recommended by that solution? Matching engine, having a healthy ACE pipeline, thanks to partner central agents and the integrations you’re doing. And in addition to being the specializations and doing things like multi-product solutions and ultimately closing opportunities, you dream of LAR and so LAR will help that. [00:30:40] Allison McFadden: It’s more like a nightmare. [00:30:41] Vince Menzione: And so, you know, [00:30:42] Allison McFadden: it’s more like a nightmare, but [00:30:44] Vince Menzione: nightmare. Well, it’s, it’s, yeah. Nightmare of Laura and, and. Nice dreams of PRM, but the, um, but that’s the loop, right? I, I think, uh, increasingly co-sell for us, and in my mind, is largely a hundred percent automated. Yeah. Except for what matters most, those most largest, most strategic, most complex deals. [00:31:01] Vince Menzione: Where our highly paid and very skilled salespeople are most effectively used. [00:31:05] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:31:05] Vince Menzione: You know, the days of, you know, this person with 20 years experience selling, clicking, progressing opportunities through a pipeline, uh, should be over. Uh, and, and we need those people out, out selling and, and co-selling. And so that for me. [00:31:19] Vince Menzione: Yeah. That, you know, we talk a lot about co-sell, but I, I’m obsessed with automating as much of the co-sell as possible. [00:31:24] Vince Menzione: I remember going back to the ex Excel spreadsheets and, and that, that seems to be be Viva became spreadsheet jockeys. [00:31:31] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:31:32] Vince Menzione: And, and they stopped selling. They forgot how to sell. [00:31:34] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And people spend all this time doing lunch and learns and things like that. [00:31:36] Vince Menzione: And then, you know. Then the salespeople rotate out after 18 months and, and it, that’s, that’s the old days. Uh, you know, the new days are, are AI powered matching algorithms, uh, ag agentic co-sell, using the partner essential agents to get your data and, and putting that data to use automatically and, and what sounded like magic. [00:31:51] Vince Menzione: 12 months ago is being done, you know, by partners at massive scale across thousands of opportunities. You can do it today. And you know, I, there’s a guy named another Mike, right? Mike another Mike who they have, there’s like a guy who’s doing all this and I’m picking on Mike ’cause I, I know their system really well and I know the guy Mike grew easily built it for them. [00:32:08] Vince Menzione: Um, but, you know, I think, yeah, again, in the days of having 10 people sort of doing lunch and learn could be replaced by one or two people, building agents, uh, managing a massive pipeline. And, and that’s the future. [00:32:18] Vince Menzione: Exactly. James, your perspective on what breaks with co-selling? [00:32:22] James Kang: Oh, what breaks co-sell? Um, I would say. [00:32:25] James Kang: It, it starts and finishes with just misalignment and a loss of trust with the customer, especially when you have multiple partners or stakeholders involved. If you’re trying to do a three-way deal with a end customer and you’re not on the same page, you’re not gonna get to a successful outcome on, on the backend. [00:32:44] James Kang: Uh, the fix is a much more complicated story. I would say that to take a step back, um. We’ve talked about the five layer cake. We’ve talked about where NVIDIA kind of fits within the equation. We are invested in the ecosystem and so as different players and application organizations win and see these outcomes for end customers, we celebrate that success. [00:33:07] James Kang: Um, and as part of that kind of ethos of where NVIDIA fits within the ecosystem, we wanna make sure that not only. Our customers, but our partners like ISVs and GSIs are set up for success. Um, we do not as Nvidia sell hardware or GPUs directly to customers We use. Hyperscalers like AWS as kind of our force multiplier. [00:33:31] James Kang: And similarly we think of ISVs and GSIs as the force multipliers in terms of our extensions of how we, we kind of leverage the relationships and build the trust with our end customers. And so going back to kind of the question, Vince, I would say that it all comes back to trust and being able to build that mutual trust. [00:33:48] James Kang: Um, a lot of what we do when we co-sell with AWS is really on the software layer. Um, we actually have more software engineers at NVIDIA than we have hardware engineers, which is a weird thing to say, um, because everyone knows us for our GPUs. But because of that fact, we are heavily invested in Cuda and making sure that Cuda becomes the foundational layer for how not only our ISVs and GSIs, but also our end customers are building. [00:34:12] Vince Menzione: Very cool. So Reiki, you and James together on this production. Versus pilot with the Gentech ai. Tell us a little bit more about that. Where, where are you in the process? [00:34:24] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. So I mean, in general, what we’re seeing out in the market in, in relation to sort of AI and, and customer’s journeys is that, um, at least from an elastic perspective, um, we’re seeing people very much in production when it comes to, you know, kind of AI assistant co-pilot use cases. [00:34:42] Rekha Thangellapalli: So, you know, things like, um, software development, customer support is a big one. Um, any sort of employee productivity use cases where there’s. Still a human in the loop somewhere. Um, and there’s a very like, clear path to value. And so we see the customers being in production excelling there. Um, no problem. [00:35:01] Rekha Thangellapalli: Where we’re seeing people still kind of in the pilot phase is those fully autonomous workflows where there is no human involved. The agent is reasoning on its own. Um, accessing multiple systems and taking an action on the user’s behalf. And what we’re seeing is that it’s not the intelligence of the agent that’s holding it back. [00:35:26] Rekha Thangellapalli: It’s more about giving the right context to the agent and having the right. Security kind of governance controls in place for the company to feel comfortable in putting these fully autonomous workflows into production. And that’s really the conversation we’re having is all right, what are the controls you need in place? [00:35:47] Rekha Thangellapalli: For you to release this to your business unit. Um, and what is the context that the agent is needed before we can comfortably let the agent make the decision on the user’s behalf? Um, James, I’d be interested to hear what you’re, what you’re seeing in the market [00:36:03] James Kang: plus one on all things context. I, I would even go so far as to say, um. [00:36:09] James Kang: H how many folks in the audience have heard of token maxing? Like this new term? [00:36:13] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:14] James Kang: Um, I’ll, I’ll give a very specific example of, of Uber that went public. With the example of Claude, like they allowed all of their employees to use as many tokens as possible, and within the span of four months, they exhausted their full budget for the year, and so they had to pull back, and now there’s a cap on every employee. [00:36:33] James Kang: I think the number that’s circulating is $1,500 per month per employee, and so I think that is at least. In this multi-phase evolution of where we’re going to be and where we’re today, cost has become kind of the prohibitive force in terms of agentic AI at scale. Um, I think we are working on some very creative solutions in-house and Nvidia. [00:36:55] James Kang: Um. And we saw some really dynamic announcements this week when it comes to all things agent core, um, where we want to focus on very nimble ways for customers to be able to execute and go to market. And one extreme example of that is our investment within our open model strategy. So Nvidia, not only, again, providing GPUs, we actually offer our own op open models, which we call our Nitron models. [00:37:21] James Kang: And through our Nitron models, we are allowing customers to really develop and fine tune their own proprietary models in a cost effective manner. So right alongside the frontier models like OpenAI and Anthropic. It’s not a if then, it’s not an either or statement. It’s a, it’s a permutation, it’s an and So we’re giving you a cost effective alternative to not only bring your AgTech applications at scale by training on Nibo tron, which is open source, but then once you’ve kind of finished and fine tuned that specific training job to be able to. [00:37:53] James Kang: Go ahead and utilize your frontier models, whether it be OpenAI or Claude. And I know there’s other partners here that are providing those kind of different model capabilities. And so I think for us it’s, it’s a matter of choice. We know that this market is dynamic. It’s gonna be evolving over the next coming months as well as the next coming years. [00:38:10] James Kang: Uh, but we believe that we are positioned for a really unique dynamic expansion of AgTech use cases over the, at least the next three to six months. [00:38:20] Vince Menzione: Allison, for the partners in the room who are glazed over right now going, what do I, what do I do over the next 12 months? [00:38:26] Allison McFadden: Should I wake everybody up by saying, yeah, please. [00:38:27] Allison McFadden: Say go hurricanes. [00:38:28] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:38:29] Allison McFadden: Is there anyone, anybody? Everyone’s like, boo. I get to leave the parade today to go home to parade. I live in Raleigh, so we’ve got our parade on Saturday. Nice. [00:38:39] Vince Menzione: Nice. [00:38:40] Allison McFadden: All right. Wake up. Um, all right. So for the $50 million partners in the room, um. $50 million is not small. You have something that works. [00:38:50] Allison McFadden: Right. This is great. What I would be thinking about is, you know, we’ve talked about focus before, but really doubling down on, you know, what is, what is your industry, what is your client like, ideal client that you serve. And build, um, almost that kind of community. You know, the, the clients we have move from firm to firm to firm. [00:39:17] Allison McFadden: And if you’ve done good work at one, you’re gonna follow ’em to the next. Um, so build that client demand in a specific place or specific client profile that is just like really knocking it out out of the park for you. Um. Scale with marketplace, right? So if you, I, I love some of the data that you were sharing in your talk earlier, um, because it’s like no overhead scaling mechanism. [00:39:45] Allison McFadden: I mean, it’s, it’s fantastic. Um, Accenture, other GSIs like us, we are investing in marketplace. So we’re investing in resources, um, to help us. Use marketplace more with our clients and we’re gonna capture, right, those storefronts. And if you’re present on marketplace, you’re gonna be able to catch, uh, yourself in that wheel. [00:40:09] Allison McFadden: So I think those are the, the kind of couple of things I would say is focus, focus, focus to drive that client demand and use scaling mechanisms like marketplace to really kind of, uh, accelerate. [00:40:24] Vince Menzione: Matt, anything to add there on the. [00:40:26] Vince Menzione: Well just, you know, Ja, James, you, I love the token maxing reference in Uber and it reminds me, you remember when cloud came out and everyone was like, oh, all these people are, are gonna use the cloud and costs are outta control and. [00:40:39] Vince Menzione: Um, a lot of people pulled back from the cloud and, and a lot of those companies no longer exist. And it’s similar with, with, uh, token maxing, like, oh, these agents are outta control. You have a choice. You can embrace them and figure it out and get governance and, and make your data available. Um, use the partner, central agent, move to agent to co-sell, or you can fade and die. [00:40:58] Vince Menzione: And, and that’s, that’s where we’re at. Uh, is, is the, the companies sitting here today embraced the cloud years ago and won. Uh, and and there’s a set of companies here today who are gonna embrace agents in the, for both buyers and sellers, and will win. And there are those who won’t and they won’t win. And so for me, it’s like we’re, we’re at a, we’re at a crossroads. [00:41:18] Vince Menzione: And, and if you’re gonna win, you gotta leap into that, you know? I love it. And, uh, and, and, and it’s, it means the cost of experimentation is so much lower now. Development and, and even business development or software development is, is agent enabled. And so you can take risks, you can experiment and, and you have to, it’s, it’s an existential moment. [00:41:37] Vince Menzione: Agreed. We’ve got a couple minutes left over for any questions. What do you think? Sure. Are there any here. I think there are a couple. Yeah, we’ve got, we’ve got a co-sell question I’m sure coming up here. [00:41:51] Audience Member: Um, I’m Cassandra, I’m the CEO of Partner Tap. And one of the questions I had was, I think, you know, the co-selling between the sellers is where things get. Really, really hard when you’re multi-partner. And so when I was listening, um, with, you know, the Accenture and Elastic together, you talked about how you had, you, you had to get these BD business development people. [00:42:22] Audience Member: Um, is this a new team that is over the client team? And how do these teams interact like with the elastic sellers? Are you doing a lot of coaching to the field and then with if AWS sellers are, are involved, like what is that whole picture? What does look like, [00:42:43] Allison McFadden: like [00:42:44] Audience Member: on the ground? I mean, that is the hardest part, I think, and that’s what we hear. [00:42:48] Allison McFadden: It’s so, it’s so, it’s so tough. Um, and I will, I’ll just say, so our business development leaders that we now have kind of. Expanded their capacity. They have always been, they have always been there. Um, but they have not been well resourced. They haven’t, they haven’t had very clear kind of job description. [00:43:12] Allison McFadden: I’m gonna say I, in the past they have been kind of focused on partner relationship. And so like more like an alliance manager and maybe working on some of the data. Right? So when I say I have nightmares about Lars, because we’re always trying to increase the LAR for Accenture and, and they were focused like in those detailed weeds of like trying to pass ACE and trying to call the PDM and all this stuff. [00:43:39] Allison McFadden: What we are doing is really pivoting them to be proper sales, business development focused on client outcomes and focused on. Technical skills to be able to describe what this solution is to the field. So, um, and because we need, I have many, many questions about, I gotta get agents to work with Eurogen co-sell so that that part somehow goes away. [00:44:05] Allison McFadden: So that’s a, that’s the thing we gotta solve still, but, um, so we’re pivoting them to be kind of driving. More of that co-sell enablement with the field, um, and taking that message to the field rather than being there, waiting for questions to come in from the field, waiting for like our field teams to discover, oh, I saw something that we’re doing with Elastic, like on a press release on LinkedIn. [00:44:30] Allison McFadden: Right. So we’re kind of trying to pivot them to be more proactive. [00:44:33] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:44:34] Rekha Thangellapalli: Yeah. And uh, Cassandra, that’s an excellent question because I think. Multi-party, you know, sort of tri-party offerings. The hardest part is operationalizing it at scale, right? Yeah. And so for this particular offering, we are basically having three routes to market. [00:44:51] Rekha Thangellapalli: So one is seeing how this offering fits into our existing elastic go to market. And so I am constantly enabling our field sellers to say, okay, within our three field sales place, here’s exactly where this fits in. Here are, you know, uh. Keywords that you hear in customer conversations where you bring up this offering and here’s a process of how it works. [00:45:14] Rekha Thangellapalli: Um, exactly At what sales stage do I bring in Accenture, how, you know, what are the roles and expectations? Right? So that’s on the elastic side. We’re doing the same thing on the Accenture side. So we’re doing a ton of training enablement and lunch and learns, and we’re also looking at how do we fit into. [00:45:31] Rekha Thangellapalli: Uh, Accenture’s AI transformation projects, we are the semantic layer, right, of their enterprise brain. And so it’s a whole different sales motion, um, and, you know, having the right assets, having the right process again to make sure that that goes smoothly. And then finally, we’re going directly to the customer. [00:45:49] Rekha Thangellapalli: So we are launching multiple external campaigns where, you know, if the customer raises their hand. We will, we will line up immediately. Right. Um, and so, [00:46:01] Allison McFadden: I mean, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t say how important that third leg of the stool is. ’cause the second part, she talked about getting into our catalog is the first thing. [00:46:09] Allison McFadden: ’cause my BU business development leaders have the catalog. Right. And that’s what they’re selling. So what Elastic has done has gotten into one of those offerings and then. If we have a customer that asks for it, that is the fastest way to alignment. That is like the number one thing that we respond to [00:46:26] Vince Menzione: customer at the center. [00:46:27] Vince Menzione: This is great. Well, I think we’re up to time. This was a great session. I want to thank you. This is what a great, what a great group. [00:46:34] Vince Menzione: Thanks for listening to the Ultimate Partner Podcast. If today’s conversation resonated, share it with a partner leader in your network. Subscribe where [00:46:43] Vince Menzione: you listen, and head over to the ultimate partner.com. [00:46:47] Vince Menzione: For show notes related content and the resources for this episode. And if you haven’t already, now’s the time to register for the Ultimate Partner Live Event in Reston, Virginia, October 26th through October 28th. Until next time, keep showing up in the rooms that matter because being in the room changes everything [00:47:09] I.