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The following is my conversation with Adam Argyle, CSS Developer Advocate for Google Chrome.Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/xEyJ6LY7DKIThe conversation covers a quite a few topics that are relevant in the webdev and web design industries: UI complexity cliffs, DX vs UX, Self Disruption, and what Web Design Tooling could be.Along the way we touch on what OpenUI is, Adam's Deferred Inputs proposal, the 4 Jobs of Developer Experience, Thoughtleading for Good from Emily Freeman, Ilya Grigorik, and Dion Almaier, and Adobe vs Figma vs Webflow!Links:  Button tweet https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1450333133300064259 https://open-ui.org/ https://jasonformat.com/application-holotypes/ https://siliconangle.com/2021/09/29/devops-dummies-author-emily-freeman-introduces-revolutionary-model-modern-software-development-awsq3/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar Ilya Grigorik Perf.now talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIfVPtN6io Visbug https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/visbug/cdockenadnadldjbbgcallicgledbeoc?hl=en https://web.dev/learn/ Timestamps:00:00:00 Cold open00:01:05 Complexity Cliffs and the Reusable Button Problem00:03:28 OpenUI00:04:32 DevRel vs Personal work00:05:52 DRY vs Design Systems00:07:10 Building in Phases00:08:04 Thought Leading for Good00:10:33 Learning00:14:13 The Surprising Complexity of Tabs00:17:12 What is Open UI?00:19:59 Hot Take: Deferred Inputs00:23:40 Cathedral vs Bazaar00:28:01 Illya Grigorik: Head/Torso/Tail00:32:45 UX vs DX00:45:51 4 Jobs of DX00:50:33 Self Disruption00:54:50 Adobe vs Figma vs Webflow01:01:04 VisBug01:05:05 Shameless PlugsTranscript swyx: Alright So the first thing we're talking about is ui complexity cliffs what's on your mind what was his first on your on your list. Adam Argyle: yeah you had a tweet the other day that was i'm at my fourth startup or something like this and we're pressing buttons again like, how s it 2021. swyx: And by guys Adam Argyle: Are popping up i needing refactoring or something like How are they not solved and. Adam Argyle: i'm sure you had threads of people that have their ideas there and mine was it's a omplexity cliff it's the first introduction, where you as a front end ui person who actually. Adam Argyle: is like goingto go build out all this matrix of states that a button needs that it lands on you it's like you've been in the car using a shifter this whole time using a steering wheel this whole time and then someone said hey. Adam Argyle: Go change the steering wheel out and you're like oh that's just a component just a single use like that things totally only got like one attachment right, and then you walk up to it and you start working on it you'd like. Adam Argyle: To see just like really integrated into the system. Adam Argyle: And or whatever right, you have these like discovery moments with it and you realize it's much more complex than it is in a button just does that buttons like yeah well let's allow an icon to be on our button and you're like okay left and right. Adam Argyle: sides can be I can have both sides because you could have a shopping cart with a little drop down arrow. Adam Argyle: Oh man Okay, and you have to have dark mode you better have this and that and that the matrix like i've seen the of states, is what I mean by this complexity cliff like it's just not visible from the surface, it looks all innocent. Adam Argyle: And then you go map it like if you mapped out everything you need it's it's a lot, like the CSS alone that it takes to have like a custom button and the design system is absurd it's absurd, but at the same time I love it anyway. swyx: So this is the tweet and question and honestly like this is this is genuine because. swyx: yeah I had that to Sigma away, where I had my first front end job and then modify and now it's immoral same stuff again and all did you handle disabled Oh, is it a link, or is it a button. swyx: And it was interesting was also just the replies like Nicole from Google So what does she do she like. Adam Argyle: beats I worry record directly. Adam Argyle: These days, she was on frameworks and she's now shifted to ui and sort of like how did she empower people to build flexible and fluid interfaces on the web. Adam Argyle: And that's why she points to open your eyes it's like a community for that, but anyway that i'm part of her team because i'm I work on similar things. swyx: Okay yeah and so like you know, first of all I didn't I didn't expect this to reach anyone in Google. swyx: But then also like the Web components people reached out to me and they're like how come work a foreign service officer for you and i'm like it's not about the tech. swyx: it's more about like understanding the specs of what people wanted people not agreeing what a button should do. Adam Argyle: yeah. Adam Argyle: yeah Google cloud had had too many. Adam Argyle: They had them in multiple frameworks in the same. Adam Argyle: repo right being like just because they grew so fast or whatever like your project always gets out of hand and all of a sudden yeah you have more than one button. Adam Argyle: which some people have enough time or England one, how are they going to wrinkle two or three and built in different frameworks right you could your islands architecture with buttons you're just like oh snap touch mean any button from any framework just shows up in an island. swyx: that's an interesting discussion is that a big. swyx: Is the islands architecture, a big discussion within Google, or because I always have hard I have trouble separating Jason from Jason Miller, who wrote the article architecture markers. swyx: When is he talking in his own personal capacity, or when is he saying like No, this is something we're tight with thinking about a Google. Adam Argyle: Oh, in my opinion Jason and I are pretty straight shooters about our own stuff like we work for Google and chrome and we love our job, and we want to represent chrome well and do all the things our job want us to do, but we have this like I don't know where our own personal opinion like. swyx: jake Archibald as to he. Adam Argyle: he's working on a lot of his own stuff we kind of balance, both I mean Jason definitely does things internally that he might not have chosen to go do if he just could choose whatever he wants to do. Adam Argyle: But that doesn't mean that's what he's going to go pitch outside of Google and the islands architectures. Adam Argyle: yeah This is just sort of the micro friends evolution into let's eventually docker eyes every component and then manage them with communities in the front end right we'll get there, I don't know. Adam Argyle: yeah. swyx: Well, so the this discussion of the reusable button and the ui complexity cliff makes me wonder because there's a lot of discussion about how dry is overrated you know. swyx: We should we should write everything twice and sometimes if you're just customizing it so often you're reusing it so much maybe just don't reuse code just just copy and paste and then that makes it easy to the really easy to modify the only thing that. swyx: That goes wrong with that so whenever you need to do a global update then you'd run into trouble, but how often do you really need to do that. Adam Argyle: Right isn't that what the super RAD typescript refactor button is for like that's why you typed your whole thing, so that you could refactor across something globally, I mean this is a value prop of typescript right. Adam Argyle: If you are, you know, employing it that way, on your project but yeah I think that's a really good point, though, is that sometimes you don't need to build a mega button yeah. Adam Argyle: yeah mega buttons get built and then mega buttons fall down. swyx: And also wonder if it's like. swyx: If it should be gated by number of people working on the project, so we had at my first company. swyx: Three front end developers and we were building both the design system and the APP. swyx: And I was just like maybe we should build the APP and forget the design system. Adam Argyle: Okay, this is actually something i've said multiple times is that. Adam Argyle: projects and people are in phases, a startup is in a phase. Adam Argyle: And in your first phase where you're in the creation state, you should not be in typescript you should not be hardening all of your stuff with hundred percent test coverage and you should be not be making a design system which you need to do. Adam Argyle: Is build a really good experience that's messy and expressive. Adam Argyle: And then go hard and all the things that are tried and. Adam Argyle: True, because you can't predict it all, and if you try to sit down and predict it all and. Adam Argyle: and build this like perfect thing from the start you'll just never going to get to the point at which it should have as fast as you can it's weird we think we move faster with all of these rules, and all this stuff but we end up moving way slower. Adam Argyle: And so yeah i'd say phase two of your company. Adam Argyle: let's say you have success in your sustainable and it's time to like rethink something, because you can need to grow, the team by 10 or 15 or whatever. Adam Argyle: Go ahead and spend a few months and and refactor and harden and create the components that are obvious like and don't go micromanager design system okay wait i'm getting wrapped up sorry okay anyway. swyx: No, I think, look like you have this i've seen you do this rant a couple times. swyx: I think he needs to slap a fancy label on it and then put it put into a nice graphic and go like this is the way that you should do things because I have you seen i'm Emily freeman. swyx: At aws she did she basically had some issues with the software, the traditional software development lifecycle where it's like a very waterfall approach and shows you V shaped it into like a. swyx: Like a circular concentric circle grid with the six dimensions and it made a lot of sense for some people. swyx: But that at least encoded her opinion and she could give it a name and and she she said, like this is the way you do things now, and she had whole spiel on it, but like. swyx: Sometimes it's better to sell an idea or like a workflow if you give it a name and you put some put some diagrams on it and make it a thing, rather than repeating the rent every time. Adam Argyle: yeah and so yeah, this is the phases ranger mentioning like yeah. swyx: yeah catchy acronym or like you know, whatever. swyx: And and yeah I mean you know sea islands architecture was a catchy catchy name for it, you know. swyx: It was yeah was your last name, he had for. Adam Argyle: A holiday types right, it was holotype. swyx: hollow times, I never heard that word before. Adam Argyle: So cool yeah. Adam Argyle: that's what that's what Jason called it in an article, he was, oh no he was saying, your APP is one of these holiday types. Adam Argyle: And if you were yes certain holotype he could lead well to you know, an islands architectural river. swyx: yeah very good so Basically, this is like part of my long running a study on how the thought leader or thought leading for fun and profit, you know there's like sort of the cynical thought leading, which is like hey I want you to buy my ebook. swyx: But then there you can also follow me for for benefit if, like you really have a cause that you just really want to align people on, you have to package, it in a message that that people can spread for you, instead of you, having to do all the work. Adam Argyle: Totally yeah I think you're doing a good job with that being a thought leader, by the way, I very much enjoy your thoughts. swyx: I don't know what i'm meeting people to. Adam Argyle: I mean, I think that's what's fun as you're on an exploration constantly digging. Adam Argyle: And going to these archives and you're just kind of shooting it out, as it happens, and honestly that's kind of all, I do with my CSS tips i'm building stuff every day, almost all day and so i'm like here's it I just did this thing this is cool I think anyway. Adam Argyle: Yes, what else will and. swyx: I will say, like the thing about CSS like no one ever feels like you know all of it. swyx: Do you think that's a problem. Adam Argyle: No, I think that's how every language feels. swyx: So i've been trying to. swyx: push back on this little because I think being able to say, this is the entire map like Okay, you know, there is a spec right. swyx: And it's not an infinite list it's a finite list, and you can you can at least kind of draw like here's the world map, you will never visit. swyx: The entire world, but at least you know, like okay here's a comment here there's a comment there I haven't gone there yet, but it's there when I need it. swyx: At least like having boundaries around like Okay, the world ends ends here and. swyx: I think that's an interesting way to think about like learning or evangelizing something, and this is relevant for me, because at my job. swyx: We have a fairly complex system, and no one had ever enumerated the features until I went through and just went like Okay, we have 30 features and once you know these 30 features that's about it for the system. swyx: and being able to say that's it. swyx: And, and having an end to your learning I think it's a really interesting concept to have. Adam Argyle: yeah docs kind of give you that sense right you land on docs and you're like I have the world in my hands every API call and every function is. Adam Argyle: articulated here with every parameter yeah and I definitely see where you're going, I think that can help someone. Adam Argyle: Get perspective of the language that they're jumping into but there's like surprises right like you learn javascript for who cares how long and then all of a sudden someone goes, you heard of functional programming you. Adam Argyle: Like what and then you go look at you like, what are you doing with javascript and then it will. swyx: Stop. Adam Argyle: you're bringing it to infinity right and then like typescripts the same way you're like I thought I was like I liked were new like javascript and. Adam Argyle: In typescript just tells me all day that I have no idea what I know, and you know, like. Adam Argyle: CSS is the same way i've been studying and building things in it for a long time and I I also am a human, you know some of these things are so big that I can't memorize every map and territory. swyx: So I revisit in and. Adam Argyle: So I think what happens with experience is that you know, like okay every programming language has a moment where you're banging your head against it, you know whether it's FLEX box or it's. Adam Argyle: You know, some extends in typescript or something that's extending extend extend and you're just like lost in the extension world like in these scenarios you eventually emerge. Adam Argyle: Right you bust out. Adam Argyle: In your head comes popping out and you get a breath of air and you're like. Adam Argyle: I have defeated it like and what I think professional developers are they're just seasoned at defeating all the little things in so much that they're now in a perspective, where they expect things to pop up that they're not going to know. Adam Argyle: But be they've if they run into things that they run into before. Adam Argyle: They don't have the same hour or four hours or two days that it takes to solve it, they just walk right over it, because they're like oh that was in that territory over here. Adam Argyle: I remember like two years ago, when I had to go there, like i'll just go there, I don't remember everything about it. Adam Argyle: But i'll go read it and study and be like oh yeah that was it okay and i'll put that back in the 70s, like every time he's intersection observer i'm like I know in your section observer and then i'm like I don't remember the syntax I gotta go look it up so. Adam Argyle: Anyway, yeah. swyx: And they basically, I just want to copy and paste intersection observer code and just give me like the three or four design patterns that work and that's about it that's that's all people want out of it. Adam Argyle: Section observer, I mean I think people want the matrix I think they want to stick a thing in the back of their neck. Adam Argyle: And, just like CSS I know it, I will now command every box in the way that i've ever desired. swyx: yeah. Adam Argyle: Briefly, though, before we get off of complexity cliffs well the first components that reminded me of complexity cliffs was the tabs component. Adam Argyle: And we've been talking about that, so we talked about Nicole already, and so one of the things we're trying to do is make tabs on the web. Adam Argyle: easier and in my studies, I have found that it's a massive complexity cliff like there's 100 variants of what tabs are more than that, over the years we've seen thousands of variants of tabs. Adam Argyle: And they all have little niche features some little niche features, make a tabs feel like a carousel some tabs kind of feel like an accordion. Adam Argyle: Some tabs feel like those paper tabs you had in a binder and they all have this like little thing and they all have different accessibility implications and usually. Adam Argyle: that's like the deciding factor, at least, like open ui they're like okay here's what tabs are tabs are basically this accessibility ux as a foundation, like the skeleton of the thing works like this, but I go look in the wild. Adam Argyle: And I see all of these different tabs and i'm excited by it and it kind of frustrates other people, because they want to go harden the pattern right, this is what. Adam Argyle: The button is trying to do it's like hard and a pattern and so people want to harden these patterns, they they look so obvious to harden and then I go research and I basically called him Kara tabs now i'm like oh tablet cells you mean oh CARA tabs. Adam Argyle: you're like no tabs. Adam Argyle: i'm like care tabs. Adam Argyle: Because the variations are so fun and exciting and I actually think that's what the web is excelling at is this weirdness is that. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so, but the complexity cliff is very clear in tabs where there is really no single way to build one that would fulfill every tabs component needs that's out there. Adam Argyle: Like a lot of tabs have nothing to do with swiping when I think that's mandatory on like mobile you gotta be able to swipe between tabs. Adam Argyle: we've been trained that way for like five years but they would disagree, like the open ui organization because that's just not part of the. Adam Argyle: float anyway, so what i'm getting at is these complexity cliffs make it really hard to harden things and i'm at a point where i'm trying to study which ones are on which side of the cliff Sean that's what I want to know. Adam Argyle: Because the ones that are on the side that it just goes steep downhill I think it's okay to let those be free ship primitives and let people be weird. Adam Argyle: Let people build all these fun different exciting tabs like I don't i'm not that interested in that, but we could move into different inputs, if you want as that that next topic. swyx: I have a two things to ask you, before you do this so one thing you seem to have a image in your head about complexity cliffs have you visualize this because I feel like it's an analogy, that is right for visualization. Adam Argyle: know I mean it'd be an iceberg you looking at a button and it looks like a simple button on top, and then you look under the water and you're like holding this thing has like request animation frame loops in it, or something you're like I just did not predict that. swyx: yeah I think I think some visuals will be nice to for people to really is totally get it. swyx: And then, secondly, could you introduce for those who would like i've dug around open ui it seems like a basically it tries to be a browser vendor agnostic. swyx: spec have you here's how here's extensions to standard html well how about you do, how about you help me define like what is open ui who runs it, what is the near term like should people pay attention is now is it's just an r&d phase like what what's uh what phases it isn't it. Adam Argyle: Sure yeah and you know you should have unit on because she's a member of the open ui. Adam Argyle: cabinet, I have no idea anyway it's a Community group it operates like a Community group. Adam Argyle: it's led by I think Greg whitworth maybe Brian cartel also. Adam Argyle: Dave Rupert is on it also he does a lot of presentations Dave Rupert is a he's pro tabs not pro tab excel he has a spicy accordion that he's made that is basically tabs but it's. Adam Argyle: Not tabs it's a spicy accordion anyway okay so that's the sort of things that sometimes get talked about it open your eyes, but their goal is to. Adam Argyle: move faster as an agnostic implementation team, then what browsers would do and how can they operate like how the community groups do for CSS but do it for components. Adam Argyle: And so they have one that's like a recent success, I think, and it's taken a long time to get there, which is the POP over component, if you heard about the POP over component. swyx: know if I can pull it up, you can tell me about it. Adam Argyle: awesome it's cool it's classic you mouse or you focus into a link and you get a pop up right. swyx: This is it, this one. Adam Argyle: yeah. Adam Argyle: And so, this took a long time to get through it has tons of you can see that they are very look it's an editor's draft Oh, they have three and editors draft interesting, so the select element is also there, I know that my working on that one so something that's sustainable select. Adam Argyle: And I bet you that dependent on the pop up. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so i'm not a super pro hear about how they operate, but I do know that their goals are to make accessible well defined open source community group driven web components, I think their web components. Adam Argyle: And yeah and eventually I think their goal is to have those things accepted into browser specs and how browsers implement them natively maybe i'm not really sure. Adam Argyle: Where that goes from there, oh look, you can see mason freed on there for pop up he's the Google or who's doing a lot of implementation and he's on the group there to Melanie richards awesome. Adam Argyle: yeah it's got a great crew of cats that are like hacking on it, they they're diligent they seem passionate and i'm not a Member. Adam Argyle: Because i'm kind of. Adam Argyle: I don't know if we need more primitives. Adam Argyle: Sean. Adam Argyle: I want to, it is a heartache and i've talked to Brian and a couple other people about what look like i'm actually. Adam Argyle: So this is why the fruit inputs as an interesting conversation. Adam Argyle: I like to swing for the fences i'd like to swing a lot bigger. Adam Argyle: Okay, so, for example, let's say open ui or someone else and open you I seriously, I admire them so much, I think there is a really important and impressive thing that they're doing so I think i'm also just intimidated, but anyway. Adam Argyle: What I would like to suggest is okay consider the calendar so maybe a calendar component gets you know standardized so you could customize it you don't just get the 20 year old dinky one it's in your browser I. Adam Argyle: hate that one it drives me nuts and like she's the leads there's No one. Adam Argyle: else and. swyx: there's one that's worse than that it's the number number input. swyx: You know, with a small. swyx: tiny arrows. swyx: Oh, my. Adam Argyle: God seriously I don't know someone on a netbook with like one of those. Adam Argyle: mini mouse's or something anyway. Adam Argyle: Okay, so imagine this Sean This is my crazy idea called deferred inputs you put an input in there type equals date and you put an attribute called deferred on it, and what the browser does when they user temps that input. Adam Argyle: Is they broker a relationship between that webpage and a third party widget. Adam Argyle: And a third party experience, because what I want when I click on a calendar widget is not just a stupid calendar Sean I want my events on there. Adam Argyle: I want to know if what i'm picking is going to interrupt or something if i'm booking dinner I need to know. Adam Argyle: All of these different cases I want to know my stuff in there, but I don't want the webpage to know anything about it so imagine for a second that we went to the APP store MAC os and we installed. Adam Argyle: A calendar component called Google calendar who cares or maybe it's icon right account makes sense for safari to prompt. Adam Argyle: So you get these different inputs, with a broker, since the request to this APP and says this user is requesting a date All we want is a string format it like this, give them an experience that's rich and set and has a session and you're logged into. Adam Argyle: And let them pick a date and then we'll just get the date back so the date input is still just a static text input, but the browser brokered a relationship to third party. Adam Argyle: developers who can create specific and robust experiences for these inputs so i'm not talking we just, you know as a group. Adam Argyle: come up with a cool date picker that people can pass custom properties to to silent, I think that's a great stopgap but i'd love to see us like make a rich. Adam Argyle: Do picking a date is a rich experience moment it's something that people can excel at and show you how beautiful, it is like imagine sunrise like that APP they made the calendar thing that just like disrupted every time they made one and then imagine someone else. Adam Argyle: Now you had choices Sean you had choices for your date input as a user that's what I want to see, I want to see users, having the ability and I want developers to build a compete for the. Adam Argyle: Creation of those widget experiences I think browsers have been sitting on it and it drives me NUTS they're crappy and it looks like they don't care so just open it up. Adam Argyle: Just broker the relationship to a bunch of developers that want to get a $2 components, so that you can have a session logged in calendar picker like. Adam Argyle: in any way, so a lot of these inputs that are a lot of these components that we're waiting for. Adam Argyle: that are more robust that we need more out of like some of our primitives i'm like don't just give us some new crappy primitive that looks like crap. Adam Argyle: I just i'm tired of those like give us an opportunity and an open up the open up the industry to a new monetization flow like you're basically creating third party developer anyway, whatever Sean I think i've pitched it enough what, what do you think is that crazy. swyx: So I need to clarify one more thing so first of all, have you written this up anywhere. Adam Argyle: This is a slides I have like a little presentation and i'm giving it to people it's just it's pretty much can we find it somewhere. swyx: Just just so people can follow up if they want. Adam Argyle: I think it's just a random idea I have songs and like you know. swyx: I mean I if you know if you you believe this so. swyx: What this this kind of conversation always reminds me of the cathedral versus the bizarre. swyx: You know that Nice that a Fred brooks this is this is old school software development right like, how do you design it ecosystem, do you want, do you want to say, like I do it for you, because I know best, or do you want to say I don't know best, and that everyone just have it out. swyx: And so open your eyes kind of the cathedral and they're like Okay, a little research everything and then we'll we'll pick the best way, that is, the superset of everything and then. swyx: The bizarre it's kind of like this different input approach where it's just like I don't know and i'll just give you a single extension point and you guys go nuts. Adam Argyle: yep that's exactly what it's basically just be what I call them. Adam Argyle: Because they have an android or an intent the. Adam Argyle: input basically admitted intent. Adam Argyle: And it says, who can handle the intent right. Adam Argyle: And all these developers now have Apps living on your operating system that the browser can broker the intent, was it says. Adam Argyle: it's just like how intense it's actually extremely modeled after, then the mobile experience of. swyx: Intense. Adam Argyle: Because I love that experience it's really nice you're just like yeah look at all my fun custom stuff I have they can handle where my image goes like that's really nice. Adam Argyle: And yeah we should have a color picker like that, like give me the opportunity to click on a color and put in I bring my own color picker to the table chrome. swyx: You know so. swyx: I don't know yours yeah. swyx: Is this the user so. Adam Argyle: there's a few personas yeah there's user. swyx: APP developer, and then the user viewing the site so each viewer has like their own experience of this thing okay. Adam Argyle: They got. Adam Argyle: A utility built of personalized widgets in their browser so anywhere their browsers logged in and. swyx: How many of these are there. Adam Argyle: I mean a perfect kind of labeled a few here. Adam Argyle: yeah calendar auto fill payment. Adam Argyle: photo picker and file picker oh photo picker and file picker already done, is what this says in my deck I haven't looked at my deck and like a year. Adam Argyle: Because yeah if you think about photo picker. Adam Argyle: Well, I guess, on mobile it's different but on desktop it's not right on mobile when you click on a file uploader you click on some things allows you to upload you get to fulfill it with your own choice of an APP your phone. Adam Argyle: Your personal stuff just needs to return an image right, and then the browser doesn't have to know to care about the whole experience that it took you to find it because you went back three years on June 24. Adam Argyle: To find the hamburger that you were looking for right like anyway yeah so auto fill would be an awesome one and payment like why can't I just install a third party payment installation thing and. swyx: When I so i'm. Adam Argyle: Pay yeah invokes my own experience. swyx: Well, what about security like if it's a third party widget and it's payment like i'm giving you my card details. Adam Argyle: User installed it, and so there, hopefully they're trusting what they installed and that the page itself is only getting results back so it's like the same static results they would have got before. Adam Argyle: So the page doesn't get to know anything about the third party experience there's like a very it's just a message that's going to get passed back and forth him. swyx: And do you think so, one example of this, that is done in user land is essentially password managers. swyx: Like a right they they override all the password fields and then they've given their own little things why can't it just be done like that. Adam Argyle: Oh so like an extension model. Adam Argyle: sounds good to me so yeah you could as a developer go build a whole bunch of really awesome you know extensions built on the extension version three manifest and deploy them across all the browsers and. Adam Argyle: deliver a unique logged in experience for color picking and sure yeah maybe you could intercept those clicks and invoke your own overlay ui actually makes sense to me. swyx: Okay got it so it sounds like you know of those things that you missed it those are inputs. swyx: There are a lot of things there a lot of components that are not inputs. swyx: And I guess open you I would be involved. Adam Argyle: Like tabs carousels pop overs yeah. swyx: So you're not in conflicts, you know. Adam Argyle: I don't think so yeah. Adam Argyle: yeah Okay, and both can coexist, they could create a new date picker and that should be the default, we need better date pickers so better default components anyway so yeah i'm like this isn't me trying to stop them it's like I just think there's a whole opportunity for competition, like. Adam Argyle: yeah and it could be cool yeah. swyx: One one last thing that comes up when when we talk about image speakers. swyx: Did you ever see that talk by ilya regard about. swyx: The image picker up like file size optimizer. Adam Argyle: I don't think so tell me all about it. swyx: So he had a fantastic talk, which, like really shaped the way I think about so okay oh God, I can give me a SEC to pull this up Okay, because. swyx: I don't I don't think i'm gonna do this justice. swyx: Unless I literally have it up. swyx: What is his Twitter handle he's not super active on Twitter. Adam Argyle: it'll yet some. swyx: I Google org. Adam Argyle: Oh, I was wrong. swyx: Okay, all right. swyx: All right, here we go so. swyx: This is where this is where I shouted it out, he had this concept of the. swyx: The head the torso and the tail. swyx: and swyx: It was like, how do we solve. swyx: How do you solve image performance forever right like you can do some fancy stuff with like. swyx: Your image optimizing cdn you can do all these like source set things no one's going to do it, it just is too complex like yeah it's cool and you should feel bad if you don't do it right, but also there's just too much to learn. Adam Argyle: Serving images is very hard yeah it's hard. swyx: So, like he was fee fantastically broke it down to like okay so he's he's at this performance now conference right and he said. swyx: Okay yeah here we go. swyx: I like I just I just love how clearly stated this if you want to solve the image problem once and for all the cost should be free, the number of choices should be zero the tools must do the work not require work. swyx: Right now, the tools that we're being given require more work hey the default sucks but just to be backward compatible here's a source at thing with like five different options and hey you got to do image processing on your own good that. swyx: That requires work, so people don't do it right, so the kind of person that goes to a performance now conference that watches performance videos in their free time, that is what he calls the head. swyx: That and i'm not finding a slide but essentially like there's a there's an adoption curve right there's there's the really like performance oriented performance minded people. swyx: who are going to adopt all the best practices they're going to listen to your target have read your blog posts, then the torso they're like they're just you know, following whatever the. swyx: Body says, and then and then there's a long tail that just will never read anything they'll just do whatever this is easiest So you see, if you want real impact, you have to address the torso under the tail not just the head, because the head. swyx: Has the time to this to learn all your stuff but that's not the problem, the problem is the rest of it, like everyone else. swyx: Sorry, I think i'm like doing doing things the job of. Adam Argyle: Now I think i'm following yeah. swyx: So so his proposal by the end of his talk, and this is like in 2019 was that okay all right image optimizing cdn too complicated set too complicated. swyx: Never just never upload a giant file that you never giant photo that you never need so he was like let's introduce an image uploaded a component that has image optimization built into that that point of upload so all points down the chain just never get there. swyx: I thought that was like that this I thought that was where you were going I don't know if you talk to them before about this. swyx: Okay. Adam Argyle: I have not. Adam Argyle: That kind of reminds me of ink ink uploader which I used I don't know, five years ago, or so it was kind of like early image X server but yeah you upload the biggest image, you had and then request it with one URL. Adam Argyle: And maybe some parameters on the URL and you get you could get a whole dynamics of the images back yes. Adam Argyle: And only had to deal with the one image tag and yeah yeah well that's the way forward motion. swyx: that's an image optimizing cdn. swyx: So you have to pay money for that and, of course, like you know that that. swyx: Costs of engineering resources, so he wanted to go a little bit more than that, I don't know how practical it was, but it was very convincing at the time. swyx: And you know I hope he I don't know if he's still a Google or not, but you know. Adam Argyle: He is yeah. swyx: He gets some sway in the design of this thing. Adam Argyle: Nice yeah I like that analogy, though, I think that works really good. swyx: Which is I mean it's so in a broader context of Dev developer tools and like designing for us versus the exercise next topic. swyx: yeah. swyx: I think about this a lot, which is that whenever we appear at conferences and we like dropping you blog posts and new feature and we just expect people to like. swyx: know about it and learn about it and adopt it like within a year, otherwise it's their fault not yours and i'm just like no people don't have time. swyx: Most people just want to know, like what the best practices they're going to do that and then they'll they'll move on with their day and that's about all the time that they have for you. swyx: And, and so, if we want to you know, improve user experience like we have to make it basically bring this for people to adopt the best practice. Adam Argyle: yeah so we can yeah do you want to start there like. Adam Argyle: yeah that's The goal of the phrase, or like that's like the. Adam Argyle: The the heartfelt meaningful good side of the phrase that dx can lead to good ux is the intent is there, which is that people want to deliver good ux and they're not wrong that good dx can deliver a portion or maybe a lot of ux. Adam Argyle: But I think that the phrase is kind of not doing itself a favor like it's it's kind of a short sighted view of what dx is versus a short sighted view of ux and i'm like. Adam Argyle: I don't even know why we're so okay so first off let's just say that to have dx it even could facilitate good ux someone had to teach the dx what good ux was like ux had to start it. Adam Argyle: In order, like be the initial cause for dx to exist, that it was knowledgeable to give you good ux so i'm like. Adam Argyle: wow is people think the dx just magically gives good you actually had to be written by somebody like the good ux was created and someone spent valuable time thinking about good ux. Adam Argyle: In order to bake it into something that could be shared better that then helped facilitate a workflow which is just like how like a bakery it would work right you just got like okay we've got all these processes they're working like this. Adam Argyle: And now we're going to always use this flower instead of have random flowers and we're always going to use this scoop or something like that, and you just start to like. Adam Argyle: harden these things over time, so that when new people join they don't have to go learn there's three scoops there's just one scoop now to choose from, and every time those decisions get made like they're made in a good faith that, like us, like the bakers, are trying to make more. Adam Argyle: You know muffins or something for everybody, like the ux is eating a muffin. Okay. Adam Argyle: That. Adam Argyle: Essentially you can. Adam Argyle: overdo it, just like in a design system, you can overdo it so where eventually maybe you make a factory maybe you've got you know, and this happens all the time and code we build tons of factories to stamp out web pages to stamp this out to stand we'd love our automation. Adam Argyle: And sometimes automation. Adam Argyle: All it does is harden one good ux choice and it might make subsequent ux choices harder. Adam Argyle: in any way so okay so then here i'm going to go back to like the like dx is so much more than providing good ux like there's so much more to it, like you can have an entire. Adam Argyle: day's worth of dx that never touches ux and that should be fine like you should be happy with that, because what you're trying to do is empower everyone after you. Adam Argyle: or whatever it is like I think it's valuable time so basically I think it's short sighted dx to think that it can only be valuable if it's affecting ux I don't think that even needs to. Adam Argyle: go away. Adam Argyle: And then. Adam Argyle: Right, I think dx it's like you could do anyway so dx can be entirely in a whole other sector of the organization and never changed the ux and I don't think that's bad. Adam Argyle: I think sometimes it can in consequently change ux and that's awesome sometimes it can intentionally do it, you know, maybe data, the data Center team over here. Adam Argyle: They switch to a different cluster system and now they're you know shaped 50 milliseconds off a request or whatever you're like cool the user might feel that or whatever. Adam Argyle: But then also ux it's short citing what ux is if you've ever met a ux designer. Adam Argyle: To them, the user experiences and how fast the milliseconds went down the wire, even though this is part of the user experiences how fast you got it to them. Adam Argyle: They spend weeks and months researching users to make informed decisions about ux. Adam Argyle: it's so to think that dx can just magically have all of that, I mean unless the designers are baking and they're the ones, creating the dx maybe dx is directly affecting us. Adam Argyle: But really I think ux starts with research it doesn't start with good dx you have to you have to know what good ux is spend time on it. Adam Argyle: and actually create it before you can then go harden it and make it like repeatable and shareable or whatever it is, and also ux is just so much more than. Adam Argyle: That moment the button downloaded and you pressed it so it's like belittling. Adam Argyle: The whole concept of ux and dx at the same time it's a comparison that doesn't even really matter like here's another thing too. Adam Argyle: Is you can have the worst dx in the world let's say you can only ssh into this one server you have no tools you're just with vim and it's like an. Adam Argyle: insane react project you don't even have web pack, you have to go edit the output of a bundle let's say that who knows. Adam Argyle: dude a determined ux person will do whatever it takes to make the ux good they'll go hack that code it doesn't matter the dx will matter, what matters is the desire that someone had. Adam Argyle: And you know, conversely, you could have like the best dx the entire world and deliver a button that says fart. Adam Argyle: Because the text in a button bro. Adam Argyle: is part of ux man there's ux writers that's All they do is provide text so maybe if you're dx or your button was so RAD that you could like. Adam Argyle: A new button and then you drop it in, and it has a whole suggestion of ux written content in it like I don't think you're really getting the full fledge. Adam Argyle: Delivery of ux because it's so contextual it's so subjective it's so human that. Adam Argyle: All you get from dx in terms of ux is anything that's on rails and anything you get from dx that can lead to good ux usually can because good ux sourced into the dx that then change the ux so I just don't. Adam Argyle: it's just like i'm like i'm not sure everyone's trying to say other than I think you know, which is, I said at the beginning i'm like I see the initial goal here, which is like hey if you have. Adam Argyle: really great tools, it can make it easier to slice some bread and put butter on it and then now you have slice butter way faster, you know, like look at us and we made a process for it, and now we can do 10 breads and 10 butters. Adam Argyle: In a parallel right we're gatsby and now we're doing parallel bread's buttered. Adam Argyle: Right until the designer says oh we're not using butter or new new butter and peanut butter and everyone's like Oh, we made a factory for that last process you're like dude users want peanut butter now too so. Adam Argyle: Are you have to update all the dx to match the new ux. Adam Argyle: So that's kind of what I see I think it's almost like ux is equal to dx which could trickle down to ux again early that's the intent, and so I just don't. Adam Argyle: know why we. Adam Argyle: don't talk about the full cycle and I don't know why we want to belittle the two concepts like ux is more than just developers. Adam Argyle: Building buttons and forms and flows and stuff like that there's a whole team of ux designers that they are literally fighting your company to have good ux. Adam Argyle: And I just that's why I think a lot of designers don't retweet the dx is better than us, or that dx will lead to good ux designers just know that they're at the table every day. Adam Argyle: arguing with somebody that they need to refactor this because it's not good user experience and the person over there is going move I see all your research, and I see you did user studies. Adam Argyle: I just can't allocate the resources and meanwhile they've got a team of 10 people increasing the dx of the backend system over here right and they're just not funding. Adam Argyle: The ux so anyway, I can just see like all these different sides to it and i'm. Adam Argyle: i'm just not it just doesn't do anyone to favor it's not doing dx a favor like it's not it, if anything, it kind of like makes dx look like the hero to I think that's my biggest issue with it, it makes dx look like it's The thing that lead to good ux i'm like. Adam Argyle: No, it doesn't it. Adam Argyle: Never anyway so i'm like it's not the hero. Adam Argyle: The hero here is. Adam Argyle: Having good ux like that's what everyone wants is, could you X dx steals the show and that freezing. Adam Argyle: And it's just so anyway i'm mostly annoyed with it and i'm like it's just it's based on like these couple of paths like people we look at this dx lead do that, like that's one path of 1000 that you'll take and building a product that has good ux. Adam Argyle: sure your dx lead to good ux there congratulations just don't praise that phrase like it's going to solve all of your ux problems. swyx: It is not. Adam Argyle: The responsible party for good choices ux focused individuals are the ones that make the good ux choices. Adam Argyle: and get funnel those through dx and background or whatever. Adam Argyle: So I just think it's missing the point and always. Adam Argyle: How do you feel. swyx: know why you know why we hear so much about it. swyx: it's because the ux people have nothing to sell you where's the dx people have something to sell you. swyx: there's a there's an economic incentive to drive things. Adam Argyle: yeah dx is the hottest phrase to get your product recognized right now that's for sure how. swyx: Do you think so, do you think the term is tarnished now you think it's so. No. swyx: No it's. Adam Argyle: tarnished to me, but no it's still hot, as ever, you kidding. swyx: it's my it's my it's my fault either mentally so my job titles literally had to develop experience. swyx: And I don't know if I want to. swyx: associate myself so closely with this thing. Adam Argyle: Oh, really, oh dear, I mean hey dude I associate myself with CSS how many people want to do that. swyx: I think it's amazing that would you that I think that una una or like my like I idolize you guys so much because. swyx: Oh no way be able to advocate for CSS Hello like. swyx: it's just it's just so first of all, you have to be good at, you have to be like really good at both of you are actually really great. swyx: But also just you're advocating for something that everyone can use so there's nothing to sell you it's just like you already have this and. swyx: Like 90% of you are terrible at it, or like you could be better, you know let's put it politically correctly, so I mean I think it's great I CSS will be around longer than both of us will be around, and I think it's. swyx: No one I don't know every everyone can always use a bit more CSS and their life. swyx: I need a CSS shirt, by the way. Adam Argyle: I could probably figure that out i'll send you a link later. swyx: it's just funny right like you know they're they're like 100 different js cons and like maybe I don't know if i've ever seen the CSS COM. Adam Argyle: There is yeah and I think. Adam Argyle: There was one of really popular one for five years and Europe and it's spread there was like once happening in other. Adam Argyle: continents, but it's I think kind of I don't know the conferencing is shaken up recently but yes. Adam Argyle: Yes, she's definitely underdog, and all this stuff. swyx: I mean I yeah so I mean I was really encouraged when he joins and then you started putting out a really good stuff and I just I think Google does something right when you when you hire developer relations, I don't know what it is, but. swyx: Every every person I see it's just stellar. Adam Argyle: To Dr Mayer dion has. swyx: I have. Adam Argyle: An emotion is he responsible addiction yeah he's the one who saw me. Adam Argyle: Like I anyway yeah he pretty much pulled me out of the team, I was at and Google and was like hey you want to do this over here and chrome and I was like I idolize you all I couldn't do that he's like you're one of us would you like to be like. Adam Argyle: Okay, and he totally believed in me and. Adam Argyle: gave me lots of chances and was and yeah i'm and I think there's lots of so he left recently a couple months. swyx: yeah shopify. Adam Argyle: shopify and you could tell he shattered people like there were people that were like dion was like. swyx: A. Adam Argyle: Different person he was someone I was emotionally. Adam Argyle: engaged with he has this amazing ability to listen and anyway, what what a great leader and manager, he was and he had he has some sort of skill I don't you know you'd have to ask him how he. swyx: knows asking. Adam Argyle: Someone and how we can judge people but yeah he's got a talent there. swyx: I you know I had so I went to boulder recently, and I think he is like just just outside builder or something and. swyx: I had lunch with him and he never he's so humble he never brings this up he's just like yeah I like I like tech like you know I think shopify school, you know he never talks about like how he runs. swyx: His Oregon how he how he thinks about hiring. swyx: Interesting guy interesting. Adam Argyle: Interesting guy and he just curious his candor so well. Adam Argyle: yeah but hey back to the dx says, like a job title, I do think it's still important, I just a and that's what i'm saying I don't think the phrase does your job, justice, like it's making dx sound like it's only valuable if it is impacting ux and i'm like that's not the case. Adam Argyle: You can integrate our developers to save hundreds of hours a week and and maybe never touches the ux and who cares you just still saved hundreds of ours, like, why is the value of dx somehow hinting. Adam Argyle: on its ability to hang on so we're getting more ranchi again why is yeah just doesn't like it's not doing it justice like it wants dx to be respected, and like it already is. Adam Argyle: So why push. Adam Argyle: This is like it's best moment to like. swyx: yeah whatever, so I think you know just just because you're you're interested in this i've been defining it in. swyx: In maybe like four ways, so the first this API design because. swyx: That is that every everything is downstream of like did you did you design the right abstraction right like the same thing that you're doing with different inputs and stuff like that. swyx: And then second of all docs for for that API right, you have to. swyx: be able to find it first of all, it needs to have full coverage everything that is in your API should be locatable and then it should be anticipatory like tell me what i'm going to need before I know about it, which is a high bar. swyx: But like. Adam Argyle: No, I like that's like visiting a docs page and it's already got my keys in it like I don't have to go find my keys it knows i'm writing. Adam Argyle: and looking at the docks and it. Adam Argyle: But yeah. swyx: To me that's just like template this template of docs I mean everyone can do that, you know, like it's. swyx: It is, it is, it is good people do do enjoy that but I always want to have an opinion, like Okay, you know you have like two required options and five not required options, but this is recommended in these situations, and this is only for power users tell me that. swyx: In the docs before before letting me go on configure it on my own so that's what i'm trying to do with our docs and then the last part is, if I have a done for you, the last word is. swyx: Three yeah right. swyx: Okay, so so there's there's developer relations, which is like traditional. swyx: Content creation is like teach me how to do stuff. swyx: Do tutorials do beaten, I mean. Adam Argyle: hype man. swyx: hype it up hype man yeah and then the last part is community which basically like do you have a place to go to ask questions and how how much you know. swyx: Like can you get a job in this is there, like a training is there, like career progression do I see myself identifying with this technology as a career like. swyx: There are lots of technologies in our lives there's only a certain technologies that we choose to call to like say like I am a developer, I am a reactor developer that that means something that's over and above just the the particular library and framework that you use. swyx: I don't know if I should do that I don't know if I should be so expensive and say like oh yeah communities part of this, too, but also it kind of is. Adam Argyle: It definitely is it's something that I tried and I still try to focus on by having open office hours doing the AMA is. Adam Argyle: I try to reach out and yeah that's why I do conferences, I like to do I don't think I can effectively do my job. Adam Argyle: If i'm not connecting to the Community, because otherwise i'm living in a bubble and i'm not putting my shoes on that are uncomfortable for me like I need to be constantly putting on shoes of other people to have my own perspective. Adam Argyle: shaped well and then it makes me a better educator It makes me better at all these other roles yeah. Adam Argyle: it's that it's included. swyx: it's my that's my map of developer experience so far and i'm trying to implement that. Adam Argyle: awesome that sounds very amicable and it sounds like you have four pillars and everything at Google ends up being in four pillars. Adam Argyle: So, congratulations on. swyx: Google the coming. swyx: weeks to come in threes I don't know. Adam Argyle: Three is a little more catchy huh yeah. swyx: Wait so what's an example of the thing is that that's four pillars at Google. Adam Argyle: let's see if I can I don't know if I could remember one right now but it's like anytime a leader is presenting like. swyx: there's always. Adam Argyle: One slide that's got like four pillars of our beliefs or whatever and you're like come on this is just a template slide everyone slaps and they go. Adam Argyle: Oh, this was some crap. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so we tease it every time we see it we're like there's the pillars. swyx: I mean it, this is the whole thing about draw the map right like like I want to know, like where do I end, because if you just say it's all the things I don't have to. swyx: do with that, but if I have covered like the big macro is kind of like your your meal right like when you're when you're eating you want to make sure you're taking care of your big macros and in you you're roughly like you're going to survive. swyx: So. swyx: Nice yeah it's kind of how I think about should we talk about self disruption. Adam Argyle: yeah. swyx: Alright, so tell me about what this what this is and what prompted it actually. Adam Argyle: Okay, and let's see what prompted it. swyx: was just something like not innovating or was it. Adam Argyle: That was just me making a comparison yeah I was apple and their new machines. Adam Argyle: It was. Adam Argyle: Chris cormier sharing a CSS tricks article about alternative browsers based on chromium that are offering unique can express of experiences. Adam Argyle: It was me reflecting on opera when they tried to do this with opera next as like a self disrupted browser implementation, it was really cool it's like bubbles every town was pretty neat. Adam Argyle: And I just was like started I just started thinking about it, I was like in tech okay it's like as a naive implemented right because i'm pretty much swinging the hammer on the engine every day like i'm constantly. Adam Argyle: In the House, making sure the door handles are shiny and open easy like this is what I mean by like being a ux developer like i'm just going around and making sure. Adam Argyle: That it all flows and i'm like in my head i'm like if we had tons of money and this thing was just so successful you know what I would do is I would roll that all into like a labs team. Adam Argyle: That made it so that I made the next generation of house like let's quit hacking on these same houses, we have it up, we have a great process and it's all hunky dory but at the same time, like we're out putting a factory looking thing. Adam Argyle: And, and we seem to be happy and proud about it, we are but i'm like okay So for me I got really confused i'm like I would, if I had all this money and success. Adam Argyle: Roll it entirely into disrupting myself into the next coolest thing, because now I don't have to have the same stresses, I did the first time, the first time, when I made my product, I was fighting right and you were pushing you had this ideal in this mentality. Adam Argyle: And i'd want to live that again, and what I don't see happening is companies do that I see chrome browser what is it 10 or 15 years old. Adam Argyle: It looks kind of the same has a ton of new features under the hood but i'm like this is a very unexciting user experience but that's probably fine that's fine for mainstream application and yeah you don't want to go to so anyway, I like I understand why. Adam Argyle: it's risky to try to self disrupt but at the same time, I made the adobe comparison with you i'm like 20 years of success of photoshop. Adam Argyle: And yet there's still like every three years, a new design tool popping up that. Adam Argyle: turns everyone's head away and is almost it always feels next gen when it shows up sketch showed up everyone freaked out three years later we'll freaked out over Sigma three years later we freak out over xd. Adam Argyle: And and yeah they're like they're disrupting photoshop but photoshop not disrupting itself like why can't they just sit back and be like we've got hundreds of thousands of dollars and lots of. Adam Argyle: developers let's pivot everything until like V2 of this thing and just rocket into the future, you know, like let's do what everyone actually wants, instead of just repeating. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so that that was the thought process and I was like why. Adam Argyle: Like Sean why don't more people roll their success Okay, because they do this in business right if you get a big fat success in your bitcoin output, or what I don't know like you roll your money back into a bigger investment and you roll it again. Adam Argyle: But they don't seem to do that with their products it's almost like it gets big they get. Adam Argyle: Rich they get not inspired anymore, and their focus has changed and they're no longer in that mindset of. Adam Argyle: Building the best product there now and then they're just in a new phase right and i'm like yeah, but you can be in the new face and invest in like another disruptive face right like now, you have the funds for it and that's what. it's all coming from yeah. swyx: A lot of thoughts on that. swyx: First of all, wasn't so wasn't xd doesn't actually count because it's also from adobe. Adam Argyle: I would argue it's of this is so rude of me to say is pretty much a fig macloan. Adam Argyle: yeah and it's great I love xd In fact I like it better than figure you. swyx: want them to innovate, the end of the day, I want them to. Adam Argyle: here's what I want photoshop to do with all their money and all their fantastic developers is make an actual web design tool like a real. Adam Argyle: represent tool and stop messing around with 20 year old style gradient makers and all this old crap that you've been carrying around like shed all that baggage go something straight up web focused and just. Adam Argyle: chew that crap off and just spec centric design tool, something that actually like has html elements in it, it helps designers facilitate something that is like more oriented towards a real thing instead of continuing to yeah. swyx: So we're flow like I mean. Adam Argyle: Yes, sure yeah so they so web flow chart it does disrupt the design market right big building like a web centric and web focused and spec focused design tool. Adam Argyle: And yeah i'm like why doesn't adobe look at that and go Okay, we need to do the same, we need to have. Adam Argyle: Our own version of this with our name on it we've got the funds we've got the people like they. Adam Argyle: See like from the outside, they have everything they need to do it like I look at Google, the same way i'm like look at chrome like they have all the money and all the people they need to make another version that's just incredible. Adam Argyle: And just does something fresh. Adam Argyle: But yet they're not and so yeah I was mentioning to you it's like ego it's just like to Polish turds apparently, so I think that's just kind of what happens is your ego grows. Adam Argyle: And you're like you, your smuggle I think I think what happens, this is success turns a lot of teams into some eagles and they sit and go my. swyx: Precious. Adam Argyle: yeah and they just. Adam Argyle: They just stroke, the ring and don't do anything new, with it, or whatever, and I guess that doesn't make sense, because they're. Adam Argyle: Not sitting on a pile of money, but anyway, you get what i'm saying. swyx: What adobe sitting on a pile of money, I definitely vouch for them for doing that, if they're like a 200 when I last looked at them like five years ago there, like a 60 billion like like decent size and now they're like 240 billion and. i'm just. swyx: To create like this, you think you think you know these companies, and then they they just blow past any form of expectation. swyx: Okay, so a couple couple things on this, so one is you know I had, I had a APP that I updated you know there's a I have 200 Apps probably on my phone, they do not update. swyx: You know why I don't update them because they may they may change and i'm scared of change, they work fine for me right now. swyx: And I updated one of them and yeah now like the old ux is gone and I can't get it back yeah so sometimes like don't fix what he broke, you know, like if I rely on this from a living in my business tools like. swyx: It just makes sense to just keep it for the others who will a very you have it, that that means something you know what I mean like that. swyx: That lack of change actually is a feature sometimes but yeah I mean obviously innovation is helpful, he did not want them to produce a Sigma clone I get it. swyx: they're probably looking at building a workflow or by workflow is both they're both totally possible but I don't think it's proven itself, yet I don't think like designers have like flocked to web flow like they have to figure. Adam Argyle: they've been distracted with yeah design systems and components third. Adam Argyle: Design tools are competing competing in that space to you know, make an API for all your tokens if you make your art boards like this put your squares like this and give them a name and you'll output, an API blah blah blah. Adam Argyle: yeah they're over there, turning their wheels hard. Adam Argyle: digging holes yeah my opinion yeah. swyx: Well, so Okay, and then there's also the fact that, like. swyx: It I think it takes a few years for a product to season. Adam Argyle: yeah. swyx: And, and like photoshop just you know I think it's not like there's like the Web version or creative cloud or whatever like that hasn't been that been around that long and it takes. swyx: A long time to reach like the mass population again, this is the whole concept of like you're in the head you evaluated all these tools and they came out you're like you know the difference between them, most people don't. swyx: Most people like hear about them like five years after they're out because, like that's what that's how long it takes to like hear about things you know from your friends and stuff. swyx: So you're you're wanting innovation at a pace that, like most of the country, your most the most of the industry doesn't operate on so I just want you to norm yourself. Like. swyx: Because you're at the cutting edge of a lot of things. swyx: Like and maybe it feels like the companies are not kee

Why wouldn’t someone like free swag? That’s not a rhetorical question. In fact, Jeremy Parker has been trying to answer that question since he co-founded Swag.com in 2016. Jeremy knew that swag and other promotional items were becoming key marketing tools, and he saw an opportunity to build a business that brought those items straight to the people who needed them. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Jeremy takes us behind the scenes of what it was like building Swag.com, including how he went from 3,000 organic site visitors in a month to more than 40,000 organic visitors. The journey to that success was paved with many hiccups, including the difficulty that comes with building an ecommerce platform from scratch, and trying to land their first big-name customer by walking around that company’s campus until they found a buyer.  But today, Swag.com can handle unlimited orders, and that first customer was a little company called Facebook. How did it happen? Learn that and more on this episode.  Main Takeaways: The Snowball Effect — Attracting customers is always easier when you have a proven track record that you can point to. Therefore, it is critical to land key accounts in the early days that can be referenced in future sales conversations. Because when you can point to one successful company that works with you, other companies will follow suit.  What To Know About SEO — Good SEO doesn’t happen by accident. Even though you might have great products and a thriving customer base, organic growth doesn’t happen unless you’re paying attention to your content strategy and making the necessary little tweaks that will bump you up in the search results. If You Build It, They Will Come — When deciding on your product offerings, you have to get inside your customers’ heads and build up an inventory of things that people actually want. Sometimes that means you have to get your hands dirty, do some testing and try things that don’t scale before finally settling on the right blend of offerings. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles co-founder of mission.org. Today on the show we have Jeremy Parker, the co-founder and CEO at Swag.com. Jeremy, how's it going? Jeremy: Hey, thanks so much for having me. Stephanie: I'm excited to talk all things swag. You saw my shirt hoodie. I was ready for you this morning. I have everything branded mission. Jeremy: Every everyone needs a little schtickle of swag in their life. Stephanie: I agree. What is the first piece of swag that you remember? Jeremy: Oh, wow. For myself, I've been going to a ridiculous number of trade shows and events over the years. Honestly the earliest swagger member was stuff that I ended up throwing away and that's one that gave me one of the ideas for Swag.com and we wanted to make sure we only offer products that people actually want to keep. That was my main mission from the very beginning. Stephanie: Yeah, same here. I remember getting a bunch of stuff and throwing it away, but I remember being so excited it was back I think in 2010, it was like my first finance conference and I got like a Koozie. I was so excited because it was like the first thing that I'd ever gotten for free maybe and finances a little bit. Sticklers is about giving stuff away for free. And I look back and laugh now because I would go and collect all this stuff and it would ultimately end up being nothing that I really used. Jeremy: 100%. From the very beginning of our business, we were thinking of swag as an amazing marketing tool if it's used right, so obviously that's a big caveat. And when you think of just marketing in general and you have TV commercials and everyone's trained to now fast forward through commercials and you get a magazine, you flip through the ads, or you put your ad blocker on your computer. If you give somebody really high quality swag, they say, “Thank you.” It's really a powerful tool if it's done really right. And it has to be something that people are actually going to want to use. We don't really like to push the flashiest thing or the new hottest thing. It's all about what are people that actually use every day and get those impressions of. Stephanie: Yeah. I love that. Before we dive way too deep into Swag.com, I want to hear a little bit about your background because I see you've done a lot of things in your previous life. And I wanted to kind of hear what your journey was like before founding Swag.com. Jeremy: Sure. I was a documentary filmmaker actually in college, that's why I went to school for. I actually never wanted to be a filmmaker when I went to Boston University. And I looked at the curriculum and I really wanted it to be in high school my whole … Before college life I always wanted to be a marketing guy. I was always into branding and commercials and how to tell stories through marketing. When I went to school and I looked at the syllabus of film and marketing, they really were the exact same thing, except for film taught me how to make videos. And this is right at the onset of like YouTube. I thought that would become valuable. I became like probably the first filmmaker at BU history that never actually wanted to be a filmmaker. Jeremy: But as I was in school for those four years, I ended up making a feature length documentary that ended up winning the audience award at the Vail Film Festival. And I was [inaudible] and I walked down and the brunch the next day after the award ceremony and half the room are these major celebrities and half the room are these struggling filmmakers. And I did kind of an internal gut check of, am I good enough? Is this what I want to do with my life? And it wasn't, so right after I won this award, when people primarily feel like on a high, they're like, “Oh, I'm going to become the biggest filmmaker,” my thought was, “What else am I going to do? What's my plan? What's really my plan? What am I good at?” Jeremy: And when I graduated college, I didn't know what I was good at. I had no real experience in business or anything, but I thought maybe I should start something and just learn what I'm good at, what I enjoyed. I started a t-shirt company right out of college when I was 21, 22. And really I thought t-shirt sounds so simple, but really you're learning manufacturing, PR, marketing, building an Ecommerce experience, all the different aspects of business, fulfillment, all these different things. And I tried to figure out what I was really good at. Jeremy: And over the last 10 years, I've done a lot of different things. I started the company with my brother and Jesse Itzler. Jesse is the co-founder of Marquis Jet, private jet company. He sold ZICO Coconut Water to Coca-Cola. He's one of the owners of Atlanta Hawks. I started a company with him where we partnered up with different celebrity influencers and we owned their celebrity rights to Twitter and Facebook feeds before people knew how valuable it was. This was nine years ago or so. Jeremy: So [inaudible] a lot of celebrities, buying their rights. That company ultimately got bought by a publicly traded company. I then went on to start a social networking app that ultimately failed. Never start a social networking app, I'll tell you that. Extremely difficult. Stephanie: Semi-hard. Jeremy: Yeah, it's semi-hard to do. And we built an app called Vouch. That basically was about like Oprah's favorite things democratize for everybody. You could vouch for your favorite movie and book and charity and anything you'd want to vouch for and people who follow you really get to know what you like. Really kind of making the like button with its own platform. We ended up having 100,000 plus users. We had tons of influences. It just never materialized. And after doing that for three years, I realized that the next business I want to start, it needs to be something where we made money from day one, I could give a service and a product and I started Swag.com. Jeremy: So, it's been almost five years at this point with Swag. We were just named the 218 fastest growing company on the Inc. 5000. We have 5,000 companies from Facebook, Google, Amazon, Netflix, TikTok, Spotify buying on our site and we spent a really big portion of that building is automated experience for purchasing swag. And now it's about, now how do you handle the distribution of swag? It's more than just making it easy to buy. How do you get into the hands of people? And especially now with this pandemic, that's really the most important thing. Stephanie: Yeah, I was just going to touch on that. I know everyone's probably wondering with everything going on, where conferences are being obviously canceled and not coming back for a while. How are you guys handling that? Because I'm that the swag industry right now is down overall. What are you guys doing right now to not be part of that downward spiral? Jeremy: Yeah, that's a 100% true. They just came up with numbers. ASI, which is like the big organization for promotional products, just came out to number that over 92% of companies in our industry are down approximately 50% in Q2 this year versus last year. So, it's really bad. And then obviously it makes sense on the surface where you have our core buyer was like the HR manager buying for onboarding of new hires. That was one of our big purchases and no one's hiring right now. That business goes away. And then you have the marketing teams buying for trade shows and there's no trade shows happening, so that business goes away. Jeremy: Then you have the office manager buying for internal office and company culture, and no one's in the office right now. You have all these different buyers that really are not buying swag for the normal, the typical reasons to buy swag. So like everyone in our industry, we were very nervous like what's going to happen. And what we've been able to do is take this platform, our swag distribution platform, which is what we're really pushing and what we're really excited about. We'd been building this really amazing platform over the last two years, specifically for marketing managers. That was the initial idea of it. Allowing marketing managers to easily be able to buy swag and then send swag to the remote customers or to best leads to close sales. Jeremy: That was their initial intention. But obviously with this pandemic and everyone's working remotely, it's transitioned to office managers and HR managers really buying swag in bulk and sending it to the remote employees addresses to keep the company culture thriving, even when no one's in the office, so much so that not only are we not one of the 92%, that's downloading over 50% our Q2 this year was more than our Q2 of last year and July was almost double our last year July. And it was our best month ever and August is even better than that. We're really growing frankly in a crazy time for everyone. Stephanie: That's amazing. Now, I'm thinking about it. I ordered swag for our team maybe two years ago and the process, it was crazy. It was so much back and forth of like, “Here's your quote. Oh, you want to more of this? Okay. Here's your new quote? Here's what the design might look like.” It was just a lot. And then of course the big box came to me and then I had to maybe ship things out individually or wait until I saw people in-person if I was being a little cheap. What does it look like now I'm thinking about reordering hoodies and shirts for our team members? But of course I would have to individually maybe shift them out again or are you guys different? What is your process look like that's so different than others? Jeremy: Really simple. On our site, we have very curated selection of products. You're not going to be overwhelmed with too many options. Say the top 25 mugs, you find a mug you could use our filtering tools, really easy to search by color or price point or your type of brands. You find the product you upload your logo. Our system will detect how many colors are in your logo, in the nearest Pantone match. We're making sure we're printing, Coca-Cola red and not Staples red. Once the logo is uploaded, you can maneuver the rounds, you can mark everything up. You select on your quantity price adjuster in real time and checkout. It literally takes less than three minutes to buy swag. There's no back and forth. You can also use our instant quote tool, if you wanted to quote things out before you want to go through the design process on our site, you can upload your different variables, the quantity that you're looking for, how many print locations, the number of colors in the print. It takes two seconds and you're coordinating things out. Jeremy: So, there's no back and forth emails, there's no phone calls, there's no presentation decks. It's none of it. It's really completely automated streamlined. And then when you're going through the checkout flow, obviously you can input your own address, so we'll ship everything to your office. Or if you want us to handle all the distribution for you, there's a pink button on that shipping page that says, one is to hold your swag and inventory easily distributed, [inaudible 00:09:29]. You click on the button, you follow the onboarding and then we hold all of your swag in this online Swag closet if you will, where you can manage all of your inventory in real time. If you're ever running low in stock, we'll send you smart notifications to restock. If you want to send 1,000 different locations, you upload a CSV file we'll calculate the shipping costs in real time, based on the product you selected, where they're going. Jeremy: Once you pay for that, we grab those products off the shelf and we're shipping it all over the world for you. We really streamlined the entire experience. We take it a step further if you wanted it, some companies want this, some companies don't, but we have a whole ability to create different inventory closets for location or for a department. You can have a marketing closet versus a sales closet, versus your London office or New York office. Different people should get access to it. There's different permission settings, approval flows, et cetera. You could really break it down by department, by location and we're doing this with a lot of global main companies all over the world. Also, a lot of small startups who just want to use our service as a way to distribute swag. Stephanie: I was looking through your site and I saw products there that I haven't seen in other swag companies. And I wanted to talk a little bit about how you guys go about picking your products because all of them seemed high quality where oftentimes, I'll go through it and I'll find 50 different shirts on a custom t-shirt company website. And I'm like, “Oh my gosh, actually let me look through all the reviews. Let me see if they're good. Okay. 95% of them are all bad. They all have bad reviews, bad fits, whatever.” How do you go about making sure that you only have high quality stuff there that people will actually want? Jeremy: That's a great question. And that was the challenge. And it's an ongoing challenge, always. From the very beginning, me and my co-founder, each invested $25,000 of our own money. That was our first startup budget. What be used primarily for that was buying samples. We went out and we went to different trade, shows all over the country and we bought samples from tons of different suppliers. And we saw exactly what customers typically see when they buy from sites. A lot of this stuff was really poor quality, would end up in the trash and we would never feel comfortable selling it. We were really kind of laser focused on only offering a curated selection of products that we would actually want to keep ourselves. It's a lot of testing, it's constant testing. Jeremy: How we kind of look at the whole process is we want to have the best of what's out there. It could be the relatively inexpensive, or it could be premium. It doesn't really matter we have to have stuff in all price points. We don't want it to be known as the premium quality supplier. We want to be known as the quality supplier. We have a lot of products there high-end brands, Public Rec, Rowan, Top Wood Designs, Patagonia, different products like that. We also have no name products that you had never heard of, but they're really, really quality. We have a product sourcing team that's constantly contacting a lot of direct to consumer type of products and brands that are not traditionally found in the promotional product space and going after them as well, because we want to be known as the company that has products that no other company in our space offers. Jeremy: What we've been seeing is that a lot of companies that are okay featuring their stuff on our site or are happy to feature their stuff on our site like Bellroy Backpacks, they've never done it in other promotional product sites because the other sites, feel schlocky or throw away or cheap in some way. And we are really, really not that. We're really trying to focus on quality products, stuff that people would be proud to show off, stuff that when you get it, you're going to want to wear it every single day because that's really the only real reason why Swag is a true benefit is that people actually want to use it. Stephanie: Yeah. So, now that you can't go to trade shows and try things out, and are you still going through that process when it comes to finding new products, like just ordering things that you think are great and trying them out, or is it different than what it used to be? Jeremy: No, it's exactly that. It's less expensive in some ways and more expensive in other ways. We want to make sure we have the right products that we're constantly spending a ton on samples. And now at this point in the business also, we're almost five years in and we're somewhat known in our industry. We're the fastest growing company in the promotional product space. A lot of different, great suppliers and direct to consumer brands have heard of us, so they're willing to send us free samples. We don't necessarily have to pay for it anymore. But we're just constantly sourcing more products and taking some products that maybe were cool last year, but we don't think they're going to be good this year and replacing it with new stuff. Jeremy: We don't want to keep just adding and adding and adding because it then makes it very complicated for customers to make a decision. So, we're constantly, always looking at our site and saying, “Is this the right blend and mix of products?” And we're always never happy. We're always constantly trying to improve it. Stephanie: Very cool. I'm guessing there's also a bit of like a data element where you can probably look into the data and see what people are either enjoying. Do you do reviews? Do you use customer feedback to also influence the products that you choose? Jeremy: Yeah. 100%, yeah. After everyone places an order, we always have a survey that automatically goes on the time of delivery, very basic. It's like one question like, “How satisfied were you?” So we can get our ranking and see how people like the products and how they turned out. If we ever get any sort of bad or not 100% amazing feedback about a product, we'll look into it and maybe there's something wrong, maybe the print quality wasn't great for that order or maybe the product itself wasn't as great as what we thought and we'll just remove from our site. We're constantly listening to our customers, understanding do we have the right products at all times? Because that's very important for us. We need to have that. Jeremy: We're constantly testing more and more products. And obviously we're learning what people are adding to their cart. How many products are being … What products together go? We sometimes find that if somebody buys a tote bag, they're going to buy other products that could fit into that tote, like smaller products. Or if they buy a backpack, other types of products are usually bought with backpacks. We're constantly looking at data and trying to make sure we have the right mix of products that go with each other, so we can start positioning certain products. When you buy a backpack, the products that are featured as you might also like actually make sense. So, not just what we think, but what the data is telling us. Stephanie: I love that. Along with maybe getting personalized recommendations, depending on the product they chose, are you also personalizing the experience based on maybe what company is looking around? If a LinkedIn's looking versus Google, maybe you know that Google always buys hoodies where LinkedIn buys coffee mugs. I don't know. Are you personalizing it based on who's actually browsing? Jeremy: At this point, we're not. And we've been constantly thinking about that. The challenge is that there's so many different buyers within companies. Even if we worked, let's say with LinkedIn, which we do or Google, which we do, there's so many different divisions within Google that are completely different. We're selling to the HR team or the marketing team or the sales team or office manager, or just somebody who's buying it for their local team. Everyone's looking for different things. We've done for Google complete stuff, obviously the normal stuff of notebooks and t-shirts and sweatshirts, backpacks and water bottles. But we've also done custom Allbirds Sneakers. It's hard to kind of match up always and all the buyers are necessarily not always the same. Jeremy: So, it's constantly changing, but as we're growing as our processes and we're able to handle a lot more orders and we're analyzing more data, I think that will be a shift in the future of really making the experience as personal as possible and that might be not making it personal at all based on companies or that might be going the opposite way and making it super, super personal. We're kind of learning what's the right mix at this point. Stephanie: So, to talk a little bit about maybe the backend, the tech stack, it seems like there's a lot going on behind the scenes. I first wanted to start with, I saw that you were quoted saying the platform's able to handle unlimited orders in a day. And I was wondering, is that because you guys are leveraging cloud infrastructure or have you built some kind of scaling methodology? What does that look like behind the scenes to allow you to have unlimited orders? Jeremy: Yes. We do work with AWS, which for the cloud obviously makes things a little bit easier, but our entire platform is fully custom. Every single aspect of our site is custom. We're not using any other services. Obviously we're using like Intercom live chat. We're not going to be building our own chat, but the entire platform itself and all of our pricing is very complicated. That's why there's not a lot of companies in the space that could do what we do because it's fully dynamic. Every price tasting consideration, the quantity that you're looking to buy, how many print locations, the number of colors in the print, all these different variables that have to be in play. And now if we have 3,000 products on our site and 200 core products, they all have different pricing structures, they all have different under base charges, they all have different kinds of printing methods from screen printing, embroidery, laser engraving, all of these come with different complications. Jeremy: So, we really had to build our site from this place from the very beginning we couldn't just take an out of the box solution. And frankly I would have loved to take an Ad Box solution for this because it's been taking me five years to build [inaudible] building. We have a 15-person tech team and we're growing, we keep developing more and more and more because it's important. And we want to always stay one step ahead. At this point, like yesterday we did north of a 100,000 in sales all through our Ecommerce site. Things we could really scale and that same day. The day before we did 50,000 in sales and then hopefully today we do more than a 100,000 sales. Every day could literally be completely different and it's completely the same automation. Somebody could buy 5,000 notebooks or they could buy 50 notebooks or 15 notebooks or 20,000 notebooks. And it takes the same processing ability, same exact time for checkout. Stephanie: Very cool. Yeah, that's great. When you're thinking about back in the day, starting out with a custom website versus maybe pulling something like using a platform that is already out there, how did you go about deciding that you wanted something custom and then what did that process look like? What were some of maybe the mishaps or failures along the way where you're like, “Oh, if you guys are trying to build something custom make sure you don't do this or that you avoid this.” What kind of learnings did you get from doing a custom? Jeremy: Actually the truth of the matter was in the very beginning of the business, we went all in on Shopify. And we went all in say, “You know what? Why are we building our own Ecommerce experience when somebody else could do it significantly better than us or is worked through all the kinks?” The challenges, when we start to really build a Shopify, we realize how complicated our specific industry is in terms of pricing. And there's no really easy way. There's no Ad Box solution that could really do it. We spent literally two and a half months building the Shopify store only to then realize, which was a big mistake on our part, that the pricing was not able to be done. Jeremy: We had to really scrap it and start from scratch. And we realized it's going to take us a lot longer to get where we want to be, but we're still not where we want to be, but it makes the most sense. It's really the only way to streamline it as much as we want to streamline it. Now, the typical process of promotional products, as you mentioned before, it's a lot about phone calls. It's back and forth, this quote versus that quote. You change one little element, the whole quote changes. We didn't want to deal with that. We wanted customers to be able to do it themselves, no talking to anybody. If you don't want it, obviously if you want to call us, we love to hear from you, but you don't have to. You could do every single thing yourself and we want it to make that effortless. Jeremy: You want to hold things in inventory, click on the button and now it's all in inventory. You want to distribute swag, upload this and it ships out. Every single thing on our site, we wanted to make it as easy as possible and historically, and traditionally it's not been easy at all. And it makes sense because of how custom the product offering is. Stephanie: If you would have, maybe on day one started out with like, here's the kind of things that we're most interested in. Did you know that you wanted this custom pricing option and did you go and kind of look at different platforms to see if they could do that? Or did you just jump right in? Jeremy: Yeah. From the very beginning, honestly, we spent a year before we built any platform. Our initial idea was we don't really know the platform to build, we knew that the industry needed to be shaken up a little bit. We knew how old and fragmented the industry was, but frankly, I think most entrepreneurs could agree. You honestly know what the right answer is. Most people don't, they think they do, they don't. From the very beginning, our idea was let's just learn as much as possible. Let's reach out to as many office managers, HR managers, people that we know within industries by swag. And let's ask them what they like and hate about the current buying experience that they're having. And we would show up at meetings and we would literally say, “What sites you buy from?” And they would give us some site names and we would look over their shoulder really. Jeremy: This is what we did for the first year. We spoke to over 200 different office managers, HR-related buyers. And some ended up buying became customers of ours for many years and some moved on to other things, but just to see how they purchase swag was a big tell for us, really what the process was. Looking at their email back and forth 40, 50 emails with a rep just didn't make any sense to us. We kept kind of thinking. That was kind of the first six months of our business. The second six months of our business, the remainder of the year was about, “Well, let's do it the old school way. Let's just launch a landing page. Let's go out there. Let's be a traveling salesman and try to sell some stuff.” And we really learned how painful it is. It's like it takes forever to quote, there's a lot of manual labor. Jeremy: Every single thing that was painful for us, we then figured out a solution to automate it. And we kept just chipping away at it. Stephanie: That's so important. I think it's Paul Graham who said do things that don't scale. And that's how you actually learn, like what's working, what's not working and what to build going forward. That's really smart. Jeremy: Exactly right. And that's the same thing with even getting our customers. Now, I haven't made a sales call in four years, but in the beginning I was doing everything. Me and that co-founder, Josh, we would show up at offices and try to sell. And we sold to Facebook as one of our first customers. First customer, really actually. We had a friend who worked at Facebook, got us in the door. We ended up walking around Facebook's office in New York just speaking to whoever we could to see somebody who would buy swag. Ultimately ended up selling them a couple of t-shirts, like 100 or 200 t-shirts. We barely broke even on it. I think we made like 5% margin, like barely anything, but didn't matter to us. It was just about getting that Facebook logo. I remember two days later we showed up at WeWork in New York and WeWork asked us who else we work with? And we said Facebook. Jeremy: They assumed we probably had thousands of others because we had Swag.com brand and Facebook, but really it was just Facebook. And we got, WeWork and we continued that cycle to get that really five core blue chip companies. It was doing the really unscalable things like showing up, showing the products in-person, making the sale, really learning the process as much as possible, and then automating the experience and making that whole buying experience effortless. Now, people don't need to speak to anyone if you don't want to, that's really what our main goal was. Stephanie: That's great. Yeah. I think we've had a couple people on the show. Who've talked about just finding that first customer that you can kind of leverage as the brand name and then just pointing to them and be like, “Yeah, they work with us. Like you should too.” So I think that's a good lesson for a lot of companies starting up. If you find that one brand name and you can reference them, it'll probably help with all future sales. Jeremy: 100%. It's all about social proof, at least what we have learned, it's everything. People are not going to work with you if they don't feel confident. To build up the confidence, obviously you have to have a great platform, but that doesn't happen overnight. That takes time. You have to have a great brand and a great design, make people feel confident, but other ways are who else you've worked with? A lot of our shirts and what's big reason why we've been able to scale with very little money is a lot of our t-shirts and apparel has a Swag.com in your label. We do our own products. Jeremy: When people [inaudible] t-shirts that's 5,000 people knowing about Swag.com. They see the t-shirts, they see the quality, they feel how great it is, they see the print, they have the instant social proof that Facebook uses them or Google uses them, whoever is getting the product and they see Swag.com and it drives a ton of traffic to us. That only really works if the products are great as well. Obviously people are getting really poor quality and everything's says, “Swag.com,” no one will use us. It'd be opposite [inaudible 00:25:52]. Every single thing really has to work hand-to-hand Stephanie: Yeah, that's a really. Jeremy: Yeah. We were thinking about it initially because I wear jeans a lot. I was thinking like I buy one pair of jeans for like three years. It's kind of looks cooler, the more you wear jeans, it gets more faded. But with Swag.com or swag in general, people buy stuff for a specific reason. You're buying it to give it away and then you need more stuff. If they're buying it to give it away, we have to make the experience of giving away products that other people actually want and see. And then that new person, that person who just bought that 5,000 t-shirts now they need more stuff for the next event. It's a completely different kind of business. And we just try to figure out, we have to make sure that our logo is everywhere that it can be, obviously within reason. Stephanie: I love that. Let's talk a little bit about the backend when it comes to warehousing your inventory. How does it work behind the scenes? If you're able to allow someone to essentially have their cart saved and then say, “Okay, ship this to one person in California and then ship this to one person in Florida.” What does the backend look like to make those logistics work? Jeremy: Yeah. Upfront in terms of the actual buying swag and bulk, we have integrations with different kind of the best vendors in each industry. So, like the best one for drink wear, best one water bottles and obviously we have a big selection of product. When somebody buys 1,000 mugs or something on our site, it's automatically connects to our supplier network that produces the highest quality mug with their logo and then drop ships it directly to the customer's office or wherever. But if they're holding stuff in inventory, it ships into our 3PL. We have four strategic locations all throughout the US and we're adding more locations in Canada and Europe right now to make it cheaper for global distribution. Once the products are in our fulfillment center, then they log into the, my inventory portal and they see all of their inventory in real time. Jeremy: So, if you're ever running low in stock, we'll send you smart notifications to restock. They can easily upload their CSV file. We'll calculate the shipping costs in real time. They pay for it. We grab it off the shelves and we're shipping it to 1,000 different locations. We also have this feature called the Swag Giveaway. Oftentimes, especially now, people don't necessarily know where their remote employees are living. Say you went to a trade show. God willing the world opens up, we have trade shows again, and people go to your booth and they give you their email address. You'll know what t-shirt size they are. You'll know where they live, but you still might want to engage with them. We built the Swag Giveaway feature, where you can create a fully recipient branded landing page. Let's imagine Google just uploads their logo and their colors. Jeremy: And they could easily blast out to a CSV file of just having the person's first name and email, that recipient will click on the link. It will be branded with Google, they'll select their t-shirt size or they'll select their mug, or water bottle, they'll be able to choose which product they want. Input their address, submit. It all speaks to our system. And now we have the address that we can distribute. We're building all of these tools to allow people to distribute if they're shipping to one address, thousands of addresses, or even if they don't have the recipients addresses, but easy way to capture that and also distribute. Stephanie: Wow, that's a lot going on behind the scenes. Jeremy: Yeah. Stephanie: How are you thinking about the front end part of the website because to me when you're ordering swag or something where you really want to see the details of like, is that embroidery right, are the colors right and also just like making sure that you have people who are converting and not just sitting on maybe their design or their shopping cart? How are you moving people along through the website and what kind of best practices have you seen when setting up the front end user interface? Jeremy: Good question. It's probably the most challenging thing for our business because it is custom and everyone is somewhat concerned about, is this going to come out perfect, is it could be the right logo color, is it going to be the right positioning. What we've learned is obviously we built our patent technologies is one of the first things we built to detect the number of colors and the nearest panto match in your logo when you're uploading it. So, to make people feel really safe, they're going to get their exact color. Now, obviously it can never be 100% because web colors are not the same as Pantone colors that are used for printing and t-shirts, but it really gets to the closest match. And if you want, and if you know your Pantone, which a lot of companies do, it allows them to easily input their exact Pantone, so it overrides everything and it makes it really easy. Jeremy: Obviously they can maneuver their logo, they can mock it up. And what we say is, after you place your order, we're always going to create for them a virtual production mock-up to approve before we ever start to print. We'll never go into production until they give us the green light. Really customers should feel super safe that even if they upload their logo and they're not sure is this straight or is this exactly the right position. It doesn't really matter. We're always going to create that mock-up and they can make as many revisions as they want before we start with the print. That makes it really easy. And in terms of our distribution, obviously they can always just add this stuff to inventory and just easily distribute. The process on the front end, we try to make it really effortless and streamlined. Jeremy: It's taken us four years. We're constantly adding more and more features to make that experience better. We're launching a feature very soon called the Company Art Folder. Imagine you bought something and 20 other people in your company buys different things. It should lump all of your artwork together as a company art folder, so you never have to really hunt down the designer to make sure you have the right file or is this the right logo, is this the approved logo for swag? You can always, when you're uploading your logos, select the pre-approved designs that have been used and purchased by other people in your company, so you feel more safe. Or unlike my orders page, let's say Jennifer on your team is out sick one day, you can log into your account, you'll see all of your orders and then there's another tab that says company orders. You see everyone else in your company what they purchased, so you could easily reorder what somebody else ordered and easily subtract and make sure you're using the exact same artwork. Jeremy: We're trying to build this platform as effortless on the front end to make it really, really streamlined. And in terms of getting people through the funnel, what we've seen is our platform really does work well. I think that the more simple features that really solve a problem. And as you mentioned before, Paul said, “Do things unscalable before you scale it.” Every single thing we do, it has to be super painful for us, for us to spend time developing a solution for it. Once it's overwhelmingly painful, then we build the solution to make it easy. Jeremy: Then obviously we see their abandoned carts. We can track everyone's abandoned carts. And then we have our SDRs calling all these abandoned carts within like 10 minutes of the time that they'd been in to make sure that there's no experience that's wrong. Sometimes people say, “The shipping is too high.” Or, “It doesn't seem I can get in my in hand date.” There's certain things that we could actually help out and maneuver possible. And if it's not possible, we'll let the customer know it's not possible. But getting in front of them right when they're thinking about, are they going to purchase or not and they might have issues, that's really, I think we found the most important thing for us. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really smart. Have you seen people pick up their phone right away or have you experimented with texting instead? Jeremy: We haven't done texting and I've been researching some companies and I think it's actually a really good idea. We've seen a lot of people if they're actively looking on our site or they've just left in 10 minutes, they're likely to pick up their phone. Even when people fill out a form on our site and we have a lot of … Obviously our core business up until this point was Ecommerce experience adding it to distribution, but we have a whole ‘nother business where people could buy swag boxes in bulk, giving a really great unboxing experience for new hires or engaging with your best clients. That's fully custom branded boxes inside the boxes, as custom notebook and water bottle and pen and custom note card, crinkle paper. We've allowed people to custom build those boxes effortlessly through our site. Jeremy: All you have to do is upload your logo, the same process as buying and adding to your cart, you click on the button that says, “Build a box,” and it lumps, all those products together as a box listing. It makes the entire experience super simple. And we've seen with those bigger box orders. A lot of times it might be like a two to three week sales cycle. When Ecommerce could be like they land on a site and they check out that same day, boxes, they're fairly larger sizes. Typically, they're usually using our distribution platform for distributing because no one has room in their office for boxes or wants to boxing up themselves. So, they actively use our distribution platform for that. And that cycle takes a little longer. Getting on the phone with them, really talking through the challenges or what their issues are and what their questions are, we find is really, really important. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really great. Oftentimes when you're talking or this can happen, when you're talking to a customer, they don't always tell you exactly what they need. One example you gave there was, you want to be able to go into a library where your logos are there, which is huge. I remember ordering swag back in the day at other companies and it was always kind of a review and escalation process of like, “Is this the most recent logo? Are these the right colors? Is this our team logo?” Okay. How would you find out something like that that maybe a customer wouldn't know to tell you, but it would just make it easier if they did have that there? How do you go about getting in your customer's head? Jeremy: Yeah. I think it's just like just being their teammate. We like to think of in all of our customer success likes to think of it, is that we're an extension of your brand. Obviously if you're buying swag on our site, it has to really be the quality, but it's only going to be quality and only what you like, if the logo is right, the positioning is right, it's exactly what you want. Especially dealing with bigger orders, we like to jump on a call with customers, have a conversation, try to understand what the use case for their swag is, what their budget is, what their timeline is who the audience is. And we like to suggest ideas and obviously customers can go on the site and not talk to us if they want to talk to us and use our filtering tools and our search tools and just our browsable experience and find what they want. Jeremy: But if they want our help, we want to be there to help them. I think it's just constantly trying to understand, the reason for them buying swag and with the use cases. And then we constantly offer different suggested items that we know that we work with that other companies in the similar space have worked with. And we give other solutions for them to kind of play with. And I think it just gives a great experience where they could do their own kind of sourcing and they can also use us as a guiding tool to find them exactly what they're looking for. Stephanie: When you're thinking about getting new customers, what kind of acquisition channels are you using or finding success in right now to get these large companies using you guys? Jeremy: Yeah. I like to think about marketing and it's not always going to be the same traction channel is always going to work. Now, from the very beginning, we were doing a lot more Google ads because we wanted to get paid back fairly quickly and we've realized early on, at least for our business prospecting on Facebook is a little more challenging when you're dealing with B2B buyers. But for Google, when is looking specifically for swag it's quite challenging [inaudible] Google, obviously it's very expensive. In the beginning it maybe makes sense to do Google just to get those early wins and get the credibility. But then maybe you kind of shift away from Google and you do some more SEO. SEO for us has been tremendously successful. We started really diving deep into SEO about 18 months ago, just to put things in perspective. Jeremy: Last January, we had about 3,000 organic visitors to our site, in 2019 January. January of 2020, we had North of 20,000 organic visitors. And last month we had nearly 40,000 organic visitors. Really growing the base in terms of organic, putting out tons of content, always it's content that maybe has stuff to do with swag buyer like buying swag or maybe just has to do with the audience, HR managers, the best HR solution tools. Doesn't necessarily have to be about swag, but it's a valid topic related to the buyer. And then ultimately when the buyer comes on our site, reads about it and then is going to Facebook or Google or any of their other properties, we can re-target them. That's been a really great driving force for us, but also partnerships. Jeremy: There's a lot of different companies in our space that don't necessarily sell swag. They sell other products to the office manager or other products to the HR manager, that we could really parlay and work on. We could promote them to our audience. They could promote us to their audience. We've been trying a lot of different things, affiliate marketing, a lot of different stuff, but usually it's always the one or two kind of traction channels that are the most beneficial at that time. And right now it's SEO [inaudible] hands down has been the best driver of customers for us. Stephanie: Okay. I want to dive into that a bit then, because I hear people are always talking about SEO. There's so many SEO agency, they'll do all this SEO stuff for you. I think there's like tons of bar jokes, maybe not bar jokes. Maybe just be regular jokes about SEO agencies and consultants and stuff. I want to dive into, what are you guys actually doing when it comes to your SEO strategy because it sounds like it's been successful? How are you finding out what topics to write about? What are you seeing work? Give me all the nitty-gritty on what you all are doing behind the scenes. Jeremy: Yeah. I think from the very beginning with SEO, it was about making our site compatible and making it work for Google traffic. Our site, at the very beginning … I'm a branding person. My background is in branding and user experience design for the customer. There's a lot of things that are behind the scenes that Google looks at, that the customers don't even realize. And frankly, it doesn't even mean anything to the customers. I had to learn that. I didn't know anything about that. Frankly, I'm fairly new to SEO. We started really 18 months ago and I realized our organic rankings should be a lot higher based on our brand, based on these experience. We're getting a quality product out there and it should be getting a lot more traffic. The first step was just analyzing our site and realizing, “Well, how do I make the site faster?” Jeremy: Or, “How do I make the site make more sense in terms of Google?” So for example, on every single product page, 18 months ago, we had no other associated products below the fold. Now, most people don't necessarily look at those below the product the fold because they're trying to upload their logo, mock-up things. There's a lot of stuff for them to do on the product builder page to add to cart. But you need to add those other products below the fold, so that in terms of Google, they see that that product listing is connected to four other products or so, right. There's all these small kind of tweaks or theoretically, you want to keep adding and making your site feel refreshed. You're not going to be refreshing your homepage every single two weeks. It doesn't happen. Jeremy: You're not going to be redesigning your product builder page every two weeks or your browsable experience every two weeks. What you can do, is you can maybe put like a blog post in your footer, make it like the latest blog posts. Every time you update your blog, every day or every two days, your site is getting refresh constantly. There's all these kinds of small kind of tweak things that you could do in terms of overall site. And then it's about kind of pinpointing the content that you really want to go after and saying, “Well, who is our buyer?” So, really understanding who your customer is and trying to write really good content, not just like throw away stuff, really good content with great subject lines that get people to read something and learn something, get real value out of it that might not be about swag related, but has to do with swag adjacent, if you will. Jeremy: If someone's looking for office holiday party ideas. They might not be looking for swag, but maybe we could get swag in there somehow. Or best ways to engage your remote employees or something like that. Or what healthy snack food to have in the office, literally has nothing to do with swag, but the person who is looking for that is ultimately going to be looking for swag. And we don't necessarily need to convert them today, at this point, we could convert them a month from now. When they are looking for swag, just be on the top of mind, re-target them and ultimately convert them. Just putting out consistency. I think in general, whether it's SEO or whether it's being a startup founder or whether it's anything you do in life, I think it's just really all about consistency and just trying to have more good days than bad days. Jeremy: Constantly just trying to keep pushing as hard as you can because at the end of the day, you're going to get to a much better place if you're consistent with it, you keep pushing forward and no small setbacks really affect you. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree. Are you all doing the content creation and things like that in-house still? Or have you hired that out? At what point would you say like, “Oh, it's about time to hire this out,” to have someone else work on it instead of maybe an entrepreneur doing it all themselves? Jeremy: So, initially it was all me writing the content, then it became use some freelancers and now it's becoming, now we have the resources we're hiring actually this week, a full-time writer for our own team to be writing content and doing all of the stuff that we want to do. I think in everything, it always starts with the founders. Me and my co-founder, I think we've done really ridiculous, crazy things over the last four years to get to where we are. We've driven u-hauls 11 hours making deliveries at 11 o'clock at night. Having my family and my grandma, my aunts and uncles rolling t-shirts for three days straight trying to win these big deals and having no resources to do it. You're always kind of founder, CEO and head intern all at the same time. Now, at this point we're able to hire some of those roles that doesn't really make sense for us to be doing at this point or frankly, people who are just a lot better at it than we are. And that's where we're really excited to get to. Stephanie: I love that. I'm sure your grandma thanks you. Poor grandma, she's a real VIP over there, rolling t-shirts. Jeremy: Yeah. She was making fun that she hurt her back and that's why her back is messed up because of the [inaudible 00:43:33]. Stephanie: All because of you, Jeremy. Jeez. That's great. Before we move into a lightning round, is there anything that you wanted to cover today that I missed? Jeremy: No, no, this has been great. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Yeah, it has been a blast. All right. So, let's move onto the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to throw a question your way and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Jeremy? Jeremy: I'm ready for it. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Jeremy: Oh, cool. I started watching … I was in the Hamptons this weekend. Stephanie: Fancy. Jeremy: I know, very fancy. My mother-in-law's in town and she wanted to go out. [inaudible] and there's all these ads all over the place for million dollar beach house or something. I think I started watching some real estate show. Stephanie: There you go. I saw that also on Netflix. I was watching Selling Sunset, though I need to finish that one first. Jeremy: That's fine. Stephanie: All right. What is the best promotional item you've ever received? And what's the worst one? Jeremy: Well, okay. The worst one is obviously easy. It's all about the schlocky pens that don't write. Stephanie: Oh my gosh, yes. Jeremy: Pop socket, lighter. There's some of these things, stuff when they do the hybrid stuff, it's just kind of ridiculous. Like the highlighter that also acts as a compass. It's like, “No, that's not the right thing.” So, a lot of those. And a lot of people trying to sell me on selling their stuff and it's not good. Stephanie: You're like, “No, this is no.” Jeremy: Yeah. I don't want to be mean to anybody. I just say, “I don't think it's the right fit,” or something like that, but it's not good. And the best stuff I think is honestly anything really you're going to keep it. A really high quality water bottle, something you're going to see every single day it's could be on your desk and you're going to get those impressions. I'm really proud of that, but obviously we've done bicycles for companies. We made fully custom bicycles. A company came to us and they had their whole executive team. They're very into health. They want to do something a little bit different, unique. They have a campus. We create a really cool custom, fully custom logo, colors, everything bicycles. That was a really cool project to work on. And obviously we've done really cool backpacks. We did a backpack for Facebook, which I thought was really cool where the logo was nowhere on the outside. Jeremy: [inaudible] was we wanted to make the product so kind of premium. These are like very nice backpacks, that it didn't like scream Facebook. No one even know about it, except for the people who are wearing it. So, it was black-on-black logo on the inside of the backpack, so like when you open, only the people who are wearing it, see it. That's, I think is very important. I knew this was going to happen because frankly I started getting a sense that socks were going to become very popular. We sell [inaudible] socks and clearly socks is very … No one really sees it, but it's all about the person who's putting on the socks, is wearing it, who were seeing your logo. It starts to feel that kind of connection to your brand and eventually becomes that brand evangelist. It's all about that internal. Stephanie: Yeah, that's awesome. What is a new Ecommerce tool that you're trying out that you're loving right now? Jeremy: New Ecommerce tool? We're using a company called [Tend 00:46:36]. It's very early in it, but you're able to kind of track all the different people who are coming to your site without them inputting real information, which I think is kind of spooky, but kind of cool, just to see who's checking what. Stephanie: Cool. Jeremy: For me, it's kind of the core stuff. It's the Intercom, it's the HubSpot, it's just the marketing automation, streamlining things. And there's two different things, obviously with Intercom, which is our real life customer success. People are always here to help and jumping on the phone call. Then you have the HubSpot, which is really automating the experience. Having both sides for our type of businesses is very important. Stephanie: Great. All right. The last one, a little bit harder. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Jeremy: Wow. Stephanie: Yeah. Jeremy: That's a good question. I'm still laser focused on swag. I don't necessarily always think about the broader industry as a whole. I think for swag, I think it's easy. I think it is swag distribution. Everyone's working remotely. I don't see people getting back into the office anytime soon. Even if they do, it's going to be somewhat of a new normal, maybe not every day. People are still going to be able to need to engage with the remote employees or the best customers. And who's going to want to fly across the country, maybe to that trade show. They might want to do things a little more remote and automated. For Swag, that's where we're going and we're going to be automating the distribution of Swag. I think that's our next phase. Jeremy: Or somebody's one year anniversary, send them automatically Swag in the mail. Or somebody's had a baby, send them Happy Mother's Day or Happy Father's Day type of swag in the mail. So, really automating different life activities where you want swag. Stephanie: Awesome. Love it. All right, Jeremy. This has been a blast. Where can people find out more about you and Swag.com? Jeremy: Yeah. You can obviously reach out to me on LinkedIn Jeremy Parker, and obviously come visit us at Swag.com. That's S-W-A-G.com and we would love to work with you on your next order. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks so much for joining. Jeremy: Thank you so much for having me, guys.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Childless not by Choice Podcast, where my mission is to recognize and speak to childless not by choice women and men around the world. Civilla Morgan here. I am spreading the great news that we can live a joyful, relevant, and fulfilled life, although we did not have the children we so wanted. I also welcome you even if you do not fit the demographic. Maybe you did not want children, maybe you have children. Thanks for tuning in.  Welcome to episode --120! When I started this podcast I had no idea. I could just end that sentence right there. I mean, no idea what I was doing, no idea of the deep valley moments of lost episodes, ruined episodes, tears of frustration. And the mountaintop moments where I got the interview! The authors, the suggested episode topics from people listening from halfway around the world. The emails and Facebook Messenger messages from people who wanted to remain anonymous. The words of encouragement, the care package from a listener in Hawaii or funding for lavalier mics from a listener way in the northern part of our planet. I had no idea.   I had no idea I would make it to 120 episodes. Podfading is a real thing. It typically happens around episode 7.  You just realize this podcasting thing is not for you, or maybe life gets in the way. And you stop, promising yourself you will be back. But… And life did happen to me. As my mom became more ill, I went from two episodes per month to one. I’m on my third podcast producer in five years. I have decided that going forward I will take a two-month break in October and November. That saved my sanity last year.      I’m humbled. I’m thankful to you for listening and tuning in month after month. I’m thankful for your episode suggestions. I am thankful for your letters and notes as they encourage me just as much as you say this podcast encourages you. Every once in a while I still have imposter syndrome. But I push through and keep writing and creating. I mean, am I an imposter if I’ve been writing since I was 11 years old?  Maybe. But I love to write, I love to create with my writing.  And look, there’s a 120 episode just about five-year-old podcast here. I had no idea! Thank you! Now please tell someone about this podcast!     Patreon Contributors: I would also like to thank my patrons for their monthly financial contributions to the platform. If you would like to join the Patreon family of monthly contributors, visit patreon.com/childlessnotbychoice, and set up your monthly contribution for as little as $5.00 per month! No matter your giving level, I have a gift for you!   And if you prefer to give a one time gift via PayPal, you can find me there at booksbycivillamorgan@gmail.com. Either way, your contributions to the platform are greatly appreciated! Thank you! https://www.patreon.com/Childlessnotbychoice Jordan Morgan The Knights Your Name Here Questions or comments? Contact me at:   Email: Info@civillamorgan.com                                                  Or   Visit the website at www.childlessnotbychoice.net, look to the left on the home screen and click on the link below the telephone to leave me an up to 90-second voicemail. Stitcher Premium info: Your Success Dashboard: https://app.periscopedata.com/shared/cab7b213-4764-4c6a-acb1-6cda055b4c4d? Your Promo Code: NOTBYCHOICE Stitcher Premium Promo Copy: Wherever  -- or however -- you’re listening to this podcast right now, take a moment and check out Stitcher. Those of you listening to Stitcher already get why. For those who don’t know what Stitcher is, it is a FREE podcast app for iPhone and Android and home to over two hundred and sixty thousand podcasts. Stitcher also has smart recommendations, playlists, a car mode, even a sleep timer! While the Stitcher app is free to use, they also offer a Premium subscription service called Stitcher Premium that has exclusive bonus episodes from top shows, exclusive shows from top hosts, and ad-free listening all for only $4.99 per month or $34.99 per year. Check out Stitcher Premium today and remember to use Promo code NOTBYCHOICE.   Body of episode content: Let’s talk about it. There is a pandemic going on, there is social unrest in America, we watched a man murdered on video in broad daylight, in 2020, solely because of the color of his skin. And here we are thinking it's the 21st century and we are more civilized.   Other countries marched in commiseration and agreement with us, that police brutality against people of color must stop. We saw you on the news, and we thank you, from New Zealand to South Korea, to Australia, to Scotland, to South Africa, to Canada. The Indigenous people of Australia, the Maori, The Native Americans, we see you. We are all human first. And if we are alive, if we made it through the birth canal, we deserve at the minimum, basic human respect.   There is social unrest in other countries, for various reasons. Wherever you are listening from there is probably some breaking news. There’s always breaking news.  And there is a lot of stress. Our own personal stresses. Bills, joblessness due to the pandemic or not, caring for loved ones, worrying about our personal future and the future of our respective countries.  Yes, we childless not by choice women have worries too. I have said it in previous episodes, we pay taxes into school districts to which we have no kids enrolled. That’s not a hater or hateful comment. It is a fact.  We have concerns. They may be different concerns than those with children, but they are just as valid.   Whew, talk about stress! What to do?!  Well, I talk about what to do in episode 118. How to keep the stress levels down, getting mental health help by talking to a trusted friend or counselor. And taking time for yourself. I talk about recognizing and dealing with triggers in episode 94. Be sure to check out both episodes, links are in the show notes.  Also in the show notes is a four-minute recording called ‘Privilege is like a Blanket’. Check it out!    So, in light of everything that is going on, and although I created that four-minute episode I mentioned about privilege being like a blanket, I want to go deeper.  Because I would bet all I have, that America is not the only country where racism exists.  And more to the point, it is not the only country where implicit bias and racism are built into every part of the human existence. From kindergarten to the nursing home, people of color have been and are being treated with implicit bias. I put a link in the show notes about a doctor, an educated man, who is also a lawmaker, asking if the virus is affecting people of color more because we’re not washing our hands. Yes, it’s 2020 and people with this filthy mindset are walking among us. It’s scary. This guy could have been my doctor. I’m not a mind reader. Discernment of his stupidity might be the only thing that might have saved me from continuing to go to him. So, if implicit bias exists in all aspects of our lives, even healthcare, what about the healthcare of childless not by choice women?  Aha! Great question.  Women who have been sterilized down through history: It's estimated that as many as 25-50 percent of Native American women were sterilized between 1970 and 1976. Forced sterilization programs are also a part of history in Puerto Rico, where sterilization rates are said to be the highest in the world. Google--Jan 29, 2016 Imagine going to the hospital for a common surgical procedure such as an appendectomy, only to find out afterward that you’d been sterilized. In the 20th century, untold numbers of women of color endured such life-altering experiences in part because of medical racism. Black, Native American, and Puerto Rican women report being sterilized without their consent after undergoing routine medical procedures or after giving birth. Others say they unknowingly signed documentation allowing them to be sterilized or were coerced into doing so. The experiences of these women strained relations between people of color and healthcare personnel. In the 21st century, members of communities of color still widely distrust medical officials. Women who have had surgeries they did not need, and yes this can happen to women of any race: An estimated 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed annually with the number of unnecessary hospital stays around 8.9 million a year...  --Google So, as we close out here, I wanted to remind you of a couple of things. If you are a member of the Childless not by choice with Civilla Morgan Facebook group, we had a little get together in our Facebook group on Mother’s Day! And now we are planning on having another get together in July, but this time it will be in Zoom so that more of us can come on video. Facebook only allows two people at a time. That’s not a real party! So, there is a poll going in the group, be sure to choose the date that works for you. Majority wins. I will post the date and time in the group, and the Zoom link a few minutes before we start. Be sure to check out the show notes. I put links in there to the two episodes I discussed in this episode, and there’s a bunch of other stuff. Always check the show notes!    Articles of note: https://supchina.com/2020/06/09/the-troll-who-shamed-yang-liping-for-childlessness-condemns-online-abuse-after-controversy/ https://childlessnotbychoice.net/bonus-episode-privilege-its-like-a-blanket/ https://childlessnotbychoice.net/triggers-how-to-recognize-them-face-them-and-deal-with-them/ https://childlessnotbychoice.net/episode-118-that-virus-sets-new-boundaries/   Articles used for this episode: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/the-state-of-healthcare-in-the-united-states/racial-disparities-in-health-care/ https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/politics/steve-huffman-african-americans-coronavirus.html https://www.thoughtco.com/u-s-governments-role-sterilizing-women-of-color-2834600 https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/11/health/virginia-doctor-hysterectomies-trnd/index.html https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/18/unnecessary-surgery-usa-today-investigation/2435009/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2019/11/11/an-obgyn-mutilated-women-with-unnecessary-hysterectomies-tube-ties-cleanouts-feds-say/ My contact information:Website: www.childlessnotbychoice.net and www.civillamorgan.comFacebook: booksbycivillamorganTwitter: @civilla1Instagram: @joyandrelevancePinterest: Civilla M. Morgan, MSMLinkedIn: Civilla Morgan, MSMhttps://www.teepublic.com/stores/childless-not-by-choice If you would like to become a one time or ongoing sponsor, or if you would like to advertise your business or an upcoming event, contact me at info@civillamorgan.com for details.    Remember, subscription to the podcast is free. Simply go to Apple Podcast, Stitcher Radio, Spotify, Overcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Search for Childless not by Choice, and hit the subscribe button. It’s that easy!  Well, thank you for listening to this episode of Childless not by Choice! Until next time! Bye!   ‘To recognize and speak to the broken hearts of childless not by choice women, and men, around the world.’   ‘Spreading the great news that we can live a joyful, relevant, and fulfilled life’.   Until next time, Bye!  

Jeden Montagmorgen berichtet die t3n.de-Redaktion über fünf Dinge, die zum Wochenstart wichtig sind. Zusätzlich zu unserem Newsletter starten wir ab dieser Woche unser t3n Wochenbriefing auch als Podcast. Diesmal geht es unter anderem um Huaweis eigenes Ökosystem, iOS 14, Bill Gates‘ Buchempfehlungen und einen Million-Miles-Akku. Die News zum Nachlesen: 1. Android ohne Google: So gut oder schlecht funktioniert Huaweis eigenes Ökosystem: https://t3n.de/news/huawei-android-ohne-google-gut-schlecht-1279166/ 2. iOS 13.5 mit Contact-Tracing-API ist offiziell, das bringt iOS 14: https://t3n.de/news/ios-14-neue-funktionen-features-ipad-iphone-1261212/ 3. Bill Gates empfiehlt eines der besten Business-Bücher, das er je gelesen hat: https://t3n.de/news/bill-gates-empfiehlt-bestes-business-buch-1282018/ 4. Nach Tesla-Bericht: Auch GM will Million-Miles-Akku bald fertig haben: https://t3n.de/news/tesla-bericht-gm-bald-fertig-1282564/ 5. Praxistipps zum Wochenstart: Statt mehr Geld – 10 beliebte Alternativen zur Gehaltserhöhung: https://t3n.de/news/alternativen-gehaltserhoehung-steuerfrei-sozialabgabenfrei-arbeitgeber-1158679/

Craig was on with Jim Polito. Today, they discussed the latest goings on with autonomous vehicles These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Related Articles: Autonomous Cars - Are they ready for prime time ---  Transcript: Below is a rush transcript of this segment, it might contain errors. Airing date: 06/11/2019 Autonomous Vehicles Craig Hey, good morning, everybody. A little update on Ortiz, he got flown into Boston, the Red Sox flew him in. He's a Boston general, I guess he had like a five-hour operation. And they did more to help with his gunshot wound. It's just crazy. Anyhow, Mr. Technology got pumped off this morning. If this happens, sometimes I'm on a phone call. I am, you know, calling in on the phone to the radio station. I'm talking to them. I got knocked off, and I don't notice that I got knocked off, right. Well, it happened this morning. We will go into some detail about autonomous cars and what that all means including automatic lane change features and those types of things. That's what we talked about this morning with Jim Polito. I thought it was interesting. In fact, that's all we talked about. There are some implications to all this autonomous technology that I don't think many people have really thought about Jim Here is our friend, one of the most popular guests on the show. And all around great guy Craig Peterson, our tech talk guru. Good morning to you Craig Craig Hey, good morning, Jim. Jim Craig we've been spending the morning, the gentleman and I talking back and forth about autonomous cars or self-driving cars. We even get into discussing that adult film that was shot in the front seat of a self-driving Tesla while it was going down the road. We don't need to get into that here. What we want to get into is the question, are these cars ready to hit the road? Are they really prepared to hit the road? Craig It's an excellent question. The answer is, and I love this, this explanation that the Wall Street Journal had here about a month or two ago. They were saying driverless cars are 90% here. There's only another 90% left to go. Jim See you get it. You get the Tech Talk stuff. And then you get a little bit of comedy. Don't forget to tip your server. So yeah, it does seem that way. Oh, yeah, we're there. But don't try to take a left turn. Craig Yeah, exactly. There is a long way to go. There's a lot of acceptance problems still. In fact, I don't know if you're aware of this. But right now human drivers are quote, unquote, these so-called driverless cars. You probably haven't seen one of these. Jim Oh, you know what I see it the social justice warriors coming out now. Does the car has feelings? I don't know. Craig Here's what's been going on. Several companies have been trying to figure out how people will respond to driverless cars. So what they've done is that they've modified these vehicles, so that they change the driver's seat. So the person is actually sitting there. But they're sitting inside the driver's seat, and they eat. Unless you look very closely, you can't tell there's a person there. And then they have the driver drive the car around. So from just a casual observers point of view, it's just a car driving. You know, it's kind of like those, those body suits. I don't know if you've seen them, and you know, they're completely covered head to toe, yet you can see outright, yeah, the same sort of thing, except they're covered with the fabric of the seat. So they drive these things around. And they've been doing experiments trying to figure out what are we going to do, how we're going to do it? And how people are going to respond things like, you know, do we put a cow catcher on the front or pedestrian capture, right? Do we need to have lights indicating, hey, pedestrians, I'm going to start moving forward now, or I'm going to make a left turn all of these types of things? They've been finding people bullying the cars, knocking them on the hood, stepping into the way of them. Jim Oh, my God, you can't do that. These cars have feelings. Craig Let's make it even worse. Here's what happened here. When these pretend autonomous cars are driving in traffic, and people notice the car, other vehicles will do stupid things to mess with the autonomous vehicle. They will pull right in front of it, they'll break hard. And the quality of the studies is saying that people are trying to confound these cars, overrule them exploit the driverless vehicles. It has the automakers and tech firms really concerned. Obviously, there's one thing to have technology that works great in a lab, or maybe it works great on the streets of Phoenix, which is where a lot of these tests are going on right now. However when you've got a greedy human driver, and we've all seen them, and of course, it's not on the other guy. Jim Of course, it's never the guy in the other cars, always. Jim The connection is gone bad. He can't hear me. I'm going to drop the call and have him call back. Because we've lost him. Basically, to recap, where Craig was right now is that Yeah, you've got people out there seeing an autonomous car thinking oh, let me see what will happen if I drive in front of it. Or if I do this, it'll mess things up. That is not good. That is not good. And you know what that is? That's going to be an issue. When you have 50%, autonomous cars on the road, and then 50% of people just driving, because you know this is not going to happen overnight, everybody's going to have a self-driving car. It's just not going to work that way. The way it's going to work is some people are going to have them only like right now very few a tiny percentage of people have a car that will self-drive right now. And that's, that's what worries me. Oh, and by the way, if I can just add here a little personal thing. And I think Steve, you'll get a kick out of this is that, I do know that a substantial portion of the people listening to us right now are in cars. So, what if they could be in the car and be watching a video? You know, or listening to you and me? Jim Yeah, well, I mean, the two hours of the show is simulcast if you have charter TV three, channel 193. In general, they're sitting there watching Game of Thrones rather than looking at the road. Yeah, yeah. Well, no, but what I mean is I'm talking job security. I'm being very selfish about this concern. Oh, well, we're fine. Were you sure? Jim Oh, yeah. These things? Oh, yeah. I mean, I got I just, I understand what Craig is saying, but I don't I just I don't see how and he sort of touched on it. I don't under I don't see how the autonomous vehicles and humans are supposed to interact together. I just I don't really trust either of them. I don't trust humans behind the wheel. And I don't really trust robots behind the wheel, and you couldn't put the two of them together. I think it's a disaster. Know, people. Look, you will talk about looking for insurance claims gamble, throwing themselves in front of cars, people. Yeah, it's one thing to mess with them. It's another thing to be able to sue Tesla and then get rid of your you know, Geo Prism and gets yourself a nice little upgrade. Jim Yeah, well, we'll wait a minute. Hold on think I think about this. Okay. Not to be all science fiction here. But you know, with the, you know, with the artificial intelligence, the whole like the matrix, that movie, like the Terminator, that movie. What if all of a sudden, you know, the car gets mad at you for smacking it on the hood? And speaking of slapping it on the hood. Here is Craig back. I'm sorry, Craig, that connection just went south. You couldn't hear us. And you're, you were like in a tunnel. And again, I think it's the phone. I don't think it's anything other than that. I know, the machines are trying to shut you down. But yeah, Craig, I see you smack the car in the hood. And once we have artificial intelligence, it wants to get even with you. And then it's like, the movie Stephen King the book, Christine. And it's, it's running over your car? Craig Yeah. Well, here's another aspect of this. And then Sorry, I lost you there I was going on the spin and then nobody. But let's look at, for instance, people's driving culture. And there's a great article that just came out in Fast Company about a week ago, as well. It was talking about people's preference to drive versus flying. What they found is that people today, if it's a five-hour drive, no matter how long the flight is, if it's a five-hour drive, and if they're going to rent a car, on the other side, two-thirds of people prefer to drive. Yeah, and the numbers changed dramatically. If you've got a 10-hour drive, obviously, the vast majority of people want to fly. However, if it's in the tournament vehicle, a truly autonomous where they can have a nap, they can be there reading, they can be working, having meetings, that number goes way up. And what they found is even in the longest drive that they were looking at, which is a 45-hour drive, right now only one in 10 people would prefer to drive themselves. It's a handful. Think about driving to the airport, right all the crap you have to go through. But with an autonomous vehicle that changes to one in six people would prefer to drive themselves on a 45-hour drive, which means a quarter these stats of the airline industry would lose at least 10% of its travelers. And we're also looking at this change, it's also going to make it so that we don't have to expand our roads. They're thinking we could get, you know, 10 years more on the roadways that we're building or expanding than we would otherwise because the vehicles are going to be moving more progressively. You're not going to have somebody who hits the brakes and causes a major slow down and accidents and things. We're not there yet. There are a lot of companies working on it. Remember Fiat-Chrysler, they just broke off their talks with Reneau, yeah. And they turned around. And they got an agreement with his self-driving technology company in California called Brora. We've got another company out now with what's called LIDAR tech. They just got 170 million dollar funding round for self-driving cars. And this is just fantastic technology. And I've talked with the inventors before. This is the this is going to happen. But as we talked about with the Wall Street Journal, we're 90% there, and we only have 90% to go. Because part of the problem, Jim is we don't really even know what problems we're going to. We're going to have just as we talked about, people believe in these autonomous vehicles. Yeah, we're going to be taking small steps and even Elon Musk is aiming towards the small step category now and is stepping back slightly from as a tundras vehicle stuff, but-but they're coming and they're going to be I think they're going to be a godsend, especially when we're our 80s. Right. Well, Jim For the elderly, I think, and for people who may have some type of mobility issue. I think they are going to be helpful. Craig Peterson is our tech talk guru. Now we went off on this topic. He's got many more like, Can you still trust Google? So, if you want to get this information, text My name to this number 855-385-5563. So text Jim, or any questions you have 855-385-5553 Alright, standard data and text rates apply, and you'll get a lot of information, and Craig Peterson will not annoy you and not try to sell you something and not sell your name Craig thanks so much for that. We really appreciate the time. Craig Hey, thanks. Take care. Jim. Take care Jim When we return a final word. You're listening to the Jim Polito show, your safe space. --- Don't miss any episode from Craig. Visit http://CraigPeterson.com/itunes. Subscribe and give us a rating! Thanks, everyone, for listening and sharing our podcasts. We're really hitting it out of the park. This will be a great year!  More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

Hey guys, Brandon Olson here. Another episode of Rank Daddy TV. Today we're going to talk about why we need to stop pushing, selling people on SEO. Stop selling people on being at the top of Google, being on the first page of Google. Selling the rankings. And I'll show you why. It makes a lot of sense. So let's get into it. So here's the question. How can marketers like us working only part time and running our entire business from our laptop or smartphone, how are we able to guarantee insane results to our clients when the mainstream internet marketing gurus say that guarantees are impossible? That's the question. And this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Brandon Olsen and welcome to Rank Daddy. All right guys, here we go. So this is a technique that I picked up from a company called Salad Master. Salad Master is a company been in business since 1946. High end cookware. Cookware made of titanium and a bunch of other features, but we invested in a set not long ago. And then, so I was just looking at some of the training videos because I heard that Zig Ziglar sold for them for awhile. Brian Tracy and a lot of big names. This is a big ... it's a heavy sales item. You're going into people's homes, cooking them a dinner and asking them for $3,000 to $12,000 for cookware, right? So this trainer for the company is talking about features and benefits. So he goes into the fact that you don't want to sell the features because the feature is just a feature. You want to sell the benefit or the lifestyle improvement that the customer is going to get by using that product and because of that feature. So he gives an example. Say you're in a furniture store and the the salesman says, "Take a look at this coffee table. It's made of mahogany." Mahogany is not something you probably woke up that morning saying, "I've got to get some mahogany in my life." Right? But maybe you did say, "We need a new coffee table. Ours is busted it up. It's made of particle board, whatever." So what you need to do is qualify your feature to see if you're talking to a customer about a feature, if they can respond with the words. "So what?" That's a feature. "So take a look at this coffee table. It's made of mahogany." "So what?" That's a feature. So you have to respond or add onto that with the words, "What that means is-", "This means that-" You know, something like that. "So this coffee coffee table is made of mahogany, which means that it's made an incredibly durable hardwood. It's not going to warp. It's going to last for decades." So things like that. Now you're selling them on the benefits in the long lasting qualities of that coffee table. They applied it to Salad Master, obviously, in the cookware. But let's apply it to, cause this got me thinking SEO and I've fallen into this trap many times. So we can get you to the top of Google, top of Google, your rankings. We're selling and pushing SEO. They didn't wake up that morning and say, "Man, I need some SEO in my life." Or "Man, I wish I was ranked on the top of Google." Maybe they did, but to the point they may know what the power of Google is. Most of the customers don't. They have questions because we kind of sometimes take for granted when we see clients go from nowhere to the top of page Google what happens to their business? That's what they're interested in. They want to know what's going to happen to their business. What is the benefit? What is the lifestyle change that they're going to be able to see and experience for themselves when we get them to the top of Google? So instead of pushing, we can get you the top of Google. We need to give them the benefits. "So, so what? You can get me to the top of Google." That means nothing to me. "What if we could get you more customers? What if we could double your business, double your EPO ROI, triple your ROI? What would that do for you and your lifestyle for you, your family, your way of life, things like that." Once we get those things into their head, now we're no longer selling or pushing on them the feature of SEO or the feature of being at the top of Google. We're giving them the benefit of what is going to happen when that takes place, when we get them there. See what I'm saying? So get into that mindset whether you're doing a screen cast video or you're on a call. And I'm going to start practicing this myself. Stop trying to sell SEO and sell the rankings aspect of it. Even though that's ... in our head, we automatically can relate that being at the top of Google is going to equate to a massive increase in ROI for their company, which means more money, which means maybe they could hire more staff and be at work less. So many other things like this. So work on that and try to try to implement that in your business. That's all I got for today. I know it's a short episode, but it was a really an impressed point to me because it's something that I had been mistaking in my business, making a mistake of pushing the SEO part of it. When most small business owners, they didn't wake up in the morning saying, "Hey, I need me some SEO." But they do want more customers. They do want maybe to have to raise their prices because they have too many customers. They want to be able to hire more fleet or expand and grow their business because their business is their passion in most cases. They spend their lives building a business, but most of the time struggling because they don't know how to build their business and make it grow. When we can help them do that. So help them to see the end goal. Help them to see what's going to happen once they're ranked at the top. What the power of Google brings. It's the benefits and the lifestyle changes that we need to focus on. That's it guys. So if you're listening to this on iTunes or one of the audio channels, be sure to go over to YouTube channel or RankDaddy.tv. All of the episodes are there. The transcripts, if you need those. Subscribe, subscribe so you don't miss any of these. See you next time. Have a good one.

Hello everyone! Welcome back to Childless not by Choice, where my mission is to recognize and speak to childless not by choice women and men around the world. Civilla Morgan here. I am spreading the great news that we can live a joyful, relevant, and fulfilled life, although we did not have the children we so wanted. I am also reaching out to everyone who recognizes that we are not all living the same type of life. Welcome to episode 101!   Well, I have some VIP’s I need to give a shout out to! Patreon Contributors: (Patreon contributors are those who have taken an interest in my platform whether they fit the childless not by choice demographic or not. They have decided to contribute a certain dollar amount on a monthly basis to help maintain our platform and podcast. Click the Patreon link for details and to become a Patron!)https://www.patreon.com/Childlessnotbychoice   Jordan Morgan Ivy Calhoun Your Name Here Well, I would like to give a special shout-out to Dr. Cristina Archetti, Oslo, Norway, for suggesting an episode on the connection between IVF and PTSD. I have put a link to her YouTube video in the show notes. We connected after I watched her video on YouTube, entranced that someone created a video all about the childless not by choice experience. Thank you, Dr. Cristina! Content: For people with PTSD, it is very common for their memories to be triggered by sights, sounds, smells, or even feelings that they experience. These triggers can bring back memories of the trauma and cause intense emotional and physical reactions, such as raised heart rate, sweating and muscle tension.--Google So, what is PTSD--post-traumatic stress syndrome? I think we generally believe we know what it is, whether we have experienced it ourselves due to direct experience, know someone who has it, or watched a movie where someone exhibited it. As with most issues, diseases, experiences these days; we are familiar with it on some level. But here is a clinical definition: ‘Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) describes a series of predictable symptoms that take hold once a patient has survived – or in some cases witnessed – a severely traumatic or life-threatening event. Because the brain becomes overwhelmed by the pain and fear of the trauma, memories of the event do not fully process, causing the individual to re-experience the trauma as if it were occurring in the present.’--theoakstreatment.com. They go on to say that ‘Signs of PTSD can range from flashbacks to nightmares, panic attacks to eating disorders and cognitive delays to lowered verbal memory capacity. Many trauma survivors also encounter substance abuse issues, as they attempt to self-medicate the negative effects of PTSD. Most mental health professionals and diagnostic manuals agree on 17 major signs of post-traumatic stress disorder. Just as not every trauma survivor will develop PTSD, not every individual with PTSD will develop the same signs – and rarely do all 17 exist in one individual.’ Wow, 17 signs of PTSD, I did not know that!    Also discussed on the website are: Signs of Re-experiencing Trauma in PTSD Trauma Avoidance Signs of PTSD Hyperarousal Signs of PTSD--i.e. One PTSD symptom associated with hyperarousal is insomnia. The Importance of PTSD Treatment PTSD Medication--as I read up on the PTSD Medications, I recognized one. Most people would probably recognize it if I mentioned it. It never occurred to me that anyone experiencing childlessness not by choice could possibly be experiencing or have experienced PTSD. Well, my OB/GYN had wanted to prescribe this medication to me for the longest time, but I always said no because of the negative perception attached to that medication. However one day I went for a follow-up visit and out of the clear blue started crying. He seemed surprised and said that he knew I had turned down the prescription before but that he had never seen me cry throughout my entire ordeal. He wrote the prescription, I held onto it for a week or so, trying to figure out what to do. And then I filled it. There. I think you may be the first person I had ever told. But what does PTSD have to do with IVF? Well, first let's make sure we are all on the same page with what IVF is, exactly, and for the purposes of this episode, I will not go into causes of childlessness not by choice except to say in a nutshell, it is when a couple just cannot conceive naturally for any number of reasons. I want to talk more along the lines of what goes into the action of IVF, and how it relates to PTSD. So here, In a nutshell, according to a Google search is the definition of IVF: ‘a medical procedure whereby an egg is fertilized by sperm in a test tube or elsewhere outside the body.’   But back to PTSD for a moment:   As I did my research, I had a burning question: Can PTSD be cured? We all want a cure, right? We don’t necessarily want to live with negativity or the results of a negative experience for the rest of our lives. Unfortunately, there are some instances where we will have to live with the effects or after-effects of a life event. In the case of PTSD,  research says ‘As with most mental illnesses, no cure exists for PTSD, but the symptoms can be effectively managed to restore the affected individual to normal functioning. The best hope for treating PTSD is a combination of medication and therapy.’   Two similar therapies I found to help people with PTSD are CBT--cognitive behavioral therapy, ‘a type of psychotherapy in which negative patterns of thought about the self and the world are challenged in order to alter unwanted behavior patterns or treat mood disorders such as depression.’ And CPT--’Cognitive processing therapy (CPT) is a manualized therapy used by clinicians to help people recover from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and related conditions. It includes elements of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) treatments.’ Slight differences in the two. Clinicians may find the differences a little more than slight, but they seem very similar to me.   So, IVF, how can it cause PTSD? General knowledge is that only 25% of attempts at IVF is successful. 25%! According to a 2017 article in theconversation.com, that success rate is actually 33%. That’s still a relatively low number. In this same article, they say that there is now a way for women using IVF to get pregnant to know the likelihood of success. Quote: ‘Overall, for women starting IVF, 33% have a baby as a result of their first cycle, increasing to 54-77% by the eighth cycle.’  The eighth cycle?! Many insurance plans do not cover IVF on the first cycle nevermind the eight. Eight. I have a question for you: Is there a point where it becomes too many tries, whether you have the money or not? OK, IVF: ‘In Vitro Fertilization is an assisted reproductive technology (ART) commonly referred to as IVF. IVF is the process of fertilization by extracting eggs, retrieving a sperm sample, and then manually combining an egg and sperm in a laboratory dish. The embryo(s) is then transferred to the uterus. Other forms of ART include gamete intrafallopian transfer (GIFT)and zygote intrafallopian transfer (ZIFT).’--Americanpregnancy.org    Some side effects after IVF may include: Passing a small amount of fluid (may be clear or blood-tinged) after the procedure Mild cramping Mild bloating Constipation Breast tenderness   ‘Women who undergo fertility treatments may find the situation so distressing that they develop post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), a new study says. In the study, close to 50 percent of participants met the official criteria for PTSD, meaning they could be diagnosed with the condition. That's about six times higher than the percentage of people in the general population who suffer from PTSD (8 percent.)’--https://www.livescience.com/22194-fertility-treatment-ptsd.html   Additional information I found out about the possible dangers of IVF:   Possibly linked to cancer 2) Multiple births. ...3) Premature delivery and low birth weight. ...4) Ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome:Rapid weight gain — such as 33 to 44 pounds (15 to 20 kilograms) in five to 10 days.5) Severe abdominal pain.6) Severe, persistent nausea and vomiting.7) Blood clots in legs.8) Decreased urination.9) Shortness of breath.10) Tight or enlarged abdomen. 11) Miscarriage. ...12) Egg-retrieval procedure complications. ...13) Ectopic pregnancy. ...14) Birth defects. ...15) Ovarian cancer. Links used for research:   PTSD:   https://theoakstreatment.com/ptsd/signs-and-symptoms/ http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/08/13184349-fertility-treatments-may-put-women-at-risk-for-ptsd-symptoms-study-suggests?lite   https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/641243?journalCode=ssr   https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/what-are-treatments-for-posttraumatic-stress-disorder#1   (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa040603 IVF: http://theconversation.com/women-now-have-clearer-statistics-on-whether-ivf-is-likely-to-work-81256   http://americanpregnancy.org/infertility/in-vitro-fertilization/   https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/ivf-treatment-cambridge-nhs-13465755 https://www.livescience.com/22194-fertility-treatment-ptsd.html https://www.winfertility.com/risks-ivf-six-rare-complications-ivf-treatment/ https://www.infertilitytexas.com/blog/is-there-a-link-between-ivf-and-cancer Articles and podcast episodes mentioned in this episode:   http://childlessnotbychoice.net/triggers-how-to-recognize-them-face-them-and-deal-with-them/   https://childlessnotbychoice.net/episode-68-is-childlessness-a-crisis-caplans-theory-of-crisis/   https://reprotechtruths.org/ivf-trauma/   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XcAzx0jlhI&t=9s Special thank you to:   Morgan Air Conditioning. Morgan Air can be reached by calling 813 500 7765. Their email address is www. Morganair.net. Along with a stellar business reputation in the Tampa, FL area, Morgan Air is also known and well received for giving back to the Tampa, FL community whether it is back to school drives or donating services to the less fortunate. Thank you Morgan Air for recognizing the vision of Childless not by Choice, and being a part of it! Devoted, the musical duo who created my theme music. Thank you Devoted, for the beautiful theme music we use here at Childless not by Choice. Devoted has had the opportunity to sing and play in many countries. To learn more about Devoted, visit their website at www.devotedministry.org. My contact information:info@civillamorgan.comWebsites: www.childlessnotbychoice.net and www.civillamorgan.comFacebook: booksbycivillamorganTwitter: @civilla1Instagram: @joyandrelevancePinterest: Civilla M. Morgan, MSMLinkedIn: Civilla Morgan, MSM   Thank you for listening to this episode of Childless not by Choice. Until next time! Bye!   ‘To recognize and speak to the broken hearts of childless not by choice women, and men, around the world.’   ‘Spreading the great news that we can live a joyful, relevant, and fulfilled life’.  

Dr. Veronica Anderson, Host, Functional Medicine Specialist and Medical Intuitive interviews Emily Filoramo about Erasing Your Fears, Negative Self-Talk and Insecurities. What does it take to erase your fears, negative self-talk and insecurities? Self-Leadership Expert, Trainer and Transformational Executive Coach, Emily Filoramo, mentors leaders and teams to master the inner game of success, leadership and life, utilizing Internal Family Systems evidence-based, proven model of accelerated self-awareness and personal growth. Her combination of challenging life experiences, 27-year pharmaceutical career, holistic nutrition expertise and passion in peak performance psychology, gives her a unique platform to help you soar to greatness from the inside-out. In this episode, Emily will talk about why she left the pharmaceutical industry, negative talk in Asian communities and how you can heal spiritual, emotional and physical issues. She will also talk about improving intimacy and love in relationships, recognizing a blessing in disguise and overcoming tragic experiences. Listen to the end to learn how you can help yourself and determine the root cause of illness and injury.   Dr. Veronica Anderson's Links https://www.linkedin.com/in/drveronicaanderson/ https://www.facebook.com/drveronicaanderson/ https://twitter.com/DrVeronicaEyeMD?lang=en https://www.pinterest.com/drveronicaeyemd/?eq=dr.%20veronica&etslf=14837 https://www.instagram.com/drveronica/?hl=en     Recommended Book: Emily How to permanently erase self-talk: http://amzn.to/2oYGiXk   Discussed: http://selfleadership.org/   Show Notes: 03:30 - Why Emily left the pharmaceutical business 06:45 - Embarking on your spiritual journey 11:45 - Negative self-talk in Asian communities 21:20 - Healing spiritual, emotional and physical issues 22:00 - Intimacy and love in relationships 30:00 - Recognizing a blessing in disguise 36:30 - Overcoming tragic experiences 41:30 - Can you help yourself? 44:30 - The root cause of illness & injury _______________________________ Dr. Veronica Anderson is an MD, Functional Medicine practitioner, Homeopath. and Medical Intuitive. As a national speaker and designer of the Functional Fix and Rejuvenation Journey programs, she helps people who feel like their doctors have failed them. She advocates science-based natural, holistic, and complementary treatments to address the root cause of disease. Dr. Veronica is a highly-sought guest on national television and syndicated radio and hosts her own radio show, Wellness for the REAL World, on FOX Sports 920 AM “the Jersey” on Mondays at 7:00 pm ET.    If you enjoyed this episode, do us a favor and share it! Also, if you haven’t already, please take a minute to leave us a 5-star review on iTunes and claim your bonus here!   Do you want to regain your health? Visit: http://drveronica.com/ Transcription Female VO: Welcome to the Wellness Revolution Podcast, the radio show all about wellness in your mind, body, spirit, personal growth, sex, and relationships. Stay tuned for weekly interviews featuring guests that have achieved physical, mental, and spiritual health in their lives. If you'd like to have access to our entire back catalog visit drveronica.com for instant access. Here's your host, Dr. Veronica. Dr. Veronica: Welcome to another episode of Dr. Veronica's Wellness Revolution. Today we're going to talk about how you talk, how you speak, and how it affects your life. As a wellness coach, I started my life as a doctor but now I coach because it's more effective. I realized people that are going to make or break them and one is how they talk about themselves and what they're doing or going to do.  One of the words I give people, "Here's what you're going to go out and do next week." And they say, "Okay, I'll try." And then I say, "Wait, no. Banish that word, try." When you try to do something it means that you're never going to get there. You're never going to do it. You'll always be trying but you won't be succeeding. No, you're going to do. And so for a lot of times... You guys hear Artemis back in the background. Of course you know. This [Unintelligible 00:01:34]. But you realize that with people you want them to do. And so one of the tasks that I work on with people is them changing their languaging, about themselves, about what they are doing or going to do.  And so my guest here, Emily Filloramo, bemoreextraordinary.com, was in pharmaceutical sales for many years, left, switched gears. Neurolinguistic program, this is what we're talking about. Try and can, the negative self-talk that make it. But you learn this somewhere. And so we're going to talk today because in transforming your health you have to have it up here. Then you have to speak it and everything can change. It's not all about diet, supplements, and exercise.  It's also about getting your mind and your spirit and emotions. So you guys know that that's what I'm going to tell you about because there are millions of people out there telling you what diet to go on, what to eat, and pushing and peddling your product. I want to tell you what the secret sauce is. Today I have with me Emily Filloramo, bemoreextraordinary.com. She also has a book, How to Permanently Erase Negative Self-Talk: So You Can Be Extraordinary. Welcome to Dr. Veronica's Wellness Revolution. Let's start by saying you're in pharmaceutical sales, a beautiful, comfortable job that people aspire to. You get your car, you get the free lunches, you get the wine and dine people, it pays really well. You get the bennies going on. And you know it's so hard to get benefits these days. But some of the best ways to get taken care of is to push drugs, be a drug pusher for a pharmaceutical company. So what made you switch? Emily: I switched because I was laid off after 27 years back in 2011. I was almost ready to retire. Another couple of years I could've gotten a big, fat pension because I had started when I was so young. And so the universe had orchestrated that 2x4 to be hit. And it was pretty painful because I had a kid. He was a freshman in college. I have three years of private college tuition left to pay so it's 180,000. And here I am I don't have my six figure job anymore. Anyhow, I dug in and I got the courage to jump off the cliff into the entrepreneurial journey. And eventually I found my spiritual calling, as a transformational magician and leadership coach. And so I launched as a nutritionist first because that's what I studied at Cornell. Made sense, right? What I found is that I didn't like coaching people how to eat their green beans, drink their green smoothies because they did well when they were with me but afterwards they fell off the wagon. And that's why 95% of dieters keep failing and gain all their weight back because I recognized they were not addressing the real emotional burns that they were carrying, the I'm not worthy, I'm not enough. And so because they didn't believe in themselves that's what was holding them back from actually sustaining the healthy habits. And so even if when you say I try, the patients say I try, they try because there's a part of them that doesn't believe that they actually deserve to be that rocking trim, healthy, and someone that deserves for everybody to turn their head and look at them. And so because it's all the old shame... we all have old shame that we're holding on to that has us believe that we don't deserve to be in the spotlight. Because our deepest fear is our light, not our darkness. And that's what drives people so self-sabotage in health, in career, in relationships, in everything that we do. And so I ended up in the training, linguistics programming but I found that that was not enough to get to real issues. And so low and behold the universe orchestrated me ending up in this training called internal family systems. It's a general physician. We all got evidence based, internal family systems, IFS, developed by Dr. Richard Schwarz, is an evidence based modality of permanent emotional healing. It's the fastest path to becoming aware of who you are. And it's the fastest path to really living as your authentic self and unleashing the most extraordinary version of who you are. Men or women you've always dreamed of becoming.  And just unleashing to the next level and whatever it is that you want to do with your life, getting spirit-led center and finding your true calling. And living life with joy on the journey to really leaving your legacy. And so that is power. Dr. Veronica: One thing that I'm noticing is a lot of us who have been in, let's say traditional, beautiful, successful careers are now moving out of those stable places to be able to go on and help people on the spiritual journey. Why do you think that is? What do you think is going on here? Emily: Especially with success driven people who lived life as they were supposed to. You do great in school. Yeah, I know. Go to college, or maybe you were told by your mom and dad you got to be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer. Be an artist, no, shut that part of you off.  So you do what you're supposed to do. You live through this mask, this persona that you've erected of how you're supposed to show up so you get accepted by people. And so you go on this rat race. You make good money, have the kids, buy the house, whatever it is that you're supposed to do to look like you're successful. Then usually in mid-life, especially people in their 40's is like, "This is all there is? How come I'm not happy despite the money, status, and stuff? Who am I? Why am I here on this earth? I know I'm a good doctor and a lot of physicians I used to call on, but this is just a rat race." Dr. Veronica: It's funny for me. I feel like it was a year in practice that I started my own from patient zero that I knew this ain't it. Then I became more and more miserable and depressed because I had no idea how to get out of it at that point in addition to thinking that, oh my god, I spent so many years to get here. I spent so many years to get here and now I can't stand it. What am I going to do? In addition too, because in our culture and society people are just so sick nobody's going to help you get out because they want you as their doctor. Emily: And I think the other frustration that a lot of physicians used to share with me is I give them these tools. The same old song and dance, you got to eat right, you got to exercise, move your body. And so these patients try and they don't succeed. Because they want to just stay in the darkness because... Oh my god, I just had a conversation the other day with a new client and she says, "Oh my god, who am I if I showed up in my thousand watt light? I've never shown up in that way." And so it's scary. You need to do the emotional healing work. Because what happens is we're so off from center because we don't have the right story in our head. So maybe there are physicians that could stay in medicine. But when you do so many inner works understand who you are and what drove you to overachieve. A lot of that over achievement can be due to... you were the smartest kid in class and the bullies all make fun of you for wearing pocket protectors or whatnot. And it's like, "I'll show them."  So we don't even know we have that story going on in our head. And then just the pressure from mom and dad. They want... It's only the way I'm going to get approval is if I get an MD, or JD, or MBA after my name. So you keep seeking validation from the outside. Because when you were young stuff happened at school or at home where you felt neglected, when you felt like you didn't belong. I had a physician that I worked with and this is one of his most traumatic moments. When he was in second or third grade he had to smell the feet of the bully on the school bus. Just imagine how humiliating that is. And the kids also shoved him down the sewer when he was in first grade.  And so he had all of these. He had great parents but he had all these bad incidences from the bullies and made him believe, took on the belief, "I am not enough. I'm not lovable. Look at what they did to me. I am ashamed." He was also a minority so you felt like I didn't belong and that's why they're discriminating.  And so that drove him to succeed and become a doctor and whatnot. Yeah, over achievement but now he is sabotaging his relationships. He's a very handsome man and he always had trouble with... Logically he knows he's handsome, but every time he sees a beautiful woman at the bar or at some party or whatever he's so afraid to approach her because of that little boy that was in the sewer. That little boy that was on the school bus believing that he is worthless. So that little voice is like, "Why would she want to go out with me?" The logical brain says, "Of course she wants to go out with you. You're successful, you're a doctor." But that little boy inside of him is like, "No, you don't deserve her." And even if he did get her to go out he'll sabotage it.  Dr. Veronica: Let's break some ground here. Because we both talk to all kinds of audiences. But I want to break a little ground here because there are some subject matter that people just gloss over and they don't talk about it. And if we don't start talking about these cultural identities we're never going to get people well.  And so we are sitting here, you're an Asian woman, I'm an African American. First we got the woman thing going on but then we have the not from the European culture thing going on. Where do you think that plays a role? Let's talk a little bit about that. As an Asian woman where were you. Because I know there was self-talk and I have plenty of Asian friends who tell me what was going on in their family.  And I look at Asian people and say, "You guys start out with an A because everybody expects you to have the A. And then you have to knock yourselves down in grades. You start out with the A. But as a black person you start out with an F and then you got to work yourself up to the whatever.  But there's all kinds of positive and negative things going on in this and I know there's plenty of people who watch you and or watch me because I'm an African American woman, or because you're an Asian woman. They're going to listen to what you have to say.  First, speak to your Asian brothers and sisters and let everybody else know a little bit about what's going on with the negative self-talk in the Asian community. And I know it's not monolithic. I understand that. When people are looking from the outside they tend to lump in. And this is one of our problems, we're not educated. But there's some Asian personas that from having friends that are Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Taiwanese, all the different areas. I've seen some similarities in the way the families operate. Talk about that and the negative self-talk. Emily: Yes. I'm an immigrant. I came here when I was nine. Dr. Veronica: I'm still listening, but keep talking. Emily: Okay. I came here when I was nine years old and without a word of English. And so I was trying to assimilate in Los Angeles which was not so traumatic. What became traumatic was when the family moved to New York in the middle of junior high, in the middle of the school year. And we ended up living in a two bedroom, non-air conditioned, third floor walkup for six people, four kids and two parents, one bathroom. And so it was not fun.  I just felt so ashamed for having to live that way. We were one of the poorest kids on the block. And so the first neighborhood that we lived in there were a lot of African Americans in the school and I was teased a lot for being Asian. I was called all sorts of discriminatory names. And I didn't share those with my parents.  My parents was toxicity at home with the way my father was emotionally abusing my mother, belittling her. And just witnessing that was horrible. And so I didn't feel the love at home because there was no love between them. So they didn't know how to show up as parents. And so I had to break up their fights and stuff, so I had bad trauma.  And then I have all the trauma of the stuff that I experienced at school where I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm wearing hand me down clothing. Nothing matches. I needed braces. I felt ugly." And so that shame kept going on because we had moved again in the middle of the school year and I didn't feel like I fitted in. We were living amongst a lot of Jewish and Italian families in bay side Queens way back in the 70's. There weren't a lot of Asians. Again, I felt different. Dr. Veronica: It's interesting because Queens now is like little Asia. Emily: Yes. I know. And so the point is however we grow up, because when we feel different that's when we take on the beliefs of I don't fit in. And so I always felt ashamed about my Asian-nes because I was never accepted as an Asian.  And I had an incident where I was at the home of a Jewish boy working on a project, somebody that I had a crush on. And his mother comes home and just says to him, "Take her home please. She doesn't need to come here and do this project with you." It was just the way that she said and I remembered just being frozen. It's like, "Oh my god, here I am being discriminated against." So all of that toxicity at home and then the stuff that I was feeling at school, it drove my overachievement gene, because I said, "I got to get out of here." I am never coming back home.  Fortunately, I got into Cornell, got into a good school, but at Cornell the discrimination continued. I was in the fraternity parties and the frat boys I was overhearing them saying, "You got to go ask that chink to dance with you." The names that I was called it was horrifying. I kind of shoved all of that shame under the rug and I was fortunate that I was able to get a great job. Eight months out of college I started working for Pfizer, got out on my own. And because I was now making money I wasn't poor anymore, I decorated myself in designer clothing. I made sure I looked perfect to just make sure nobody knew who that Emily was underneath all of this package of perfection. And there's a saying that perfectionism is just shame wrapped up in a pretty little box. And that's what I was hiding. And so I met my husband, got married, had a kid, and all that other kind of stuff. I have another trauma which is when I was five months pregnant. My husband suffered a heart attack. He was only 38, I was 29. That's a whole another side of the story. He's alive today. He's doing well. But for 15 years I had to deal with raising a kid and trying to figure out is his next shoe going to drop. When is he going to die? He's gone through a couple of angioplasties, quadruple bypass surgery, all that stuff.  I was frozen. I lived a numbed out life. I was like, "Okay, just keep making money. You got health insurance and just do what you're supposed to do. Go out on a nice vacation." But then at the end of the day I really wasn't addressing the fact that I really wasn't satisfied. I was doing my job in my sleep but I knew that there was more of me that could be unleashed, I just didn't know what that was going to look like. And I wasn't going to worry about it until I retired. The universe had a different game plan.  In 2011 that's when they decided, okay, it's time to lay you off and to wake you up. And so on this entrepreneurial journey is where I found my joy. Even though it's extremely hard. I've hit many speed bumps, got into very stinky potholes, gotten stuck there. The rest of my emotional karma stuff that wasn't worked on had to be worked out. And so the reason why I gained this courage and fearlessness to go on the entrepreneurial journey was because 10 years prior, in my 40, I'm 54 now. In my 40's all of the emotional baggage that I've never addressed kind of came to the surface and I ended up in a depression and anxiety state for a year. It was triggered by a situation at work which led me to address all of the anger and range that I had towards my father for the way he treated my mother. The anger and rage for him being so afraid and not being able to support the family in a way where I could at least had clothing that made me feel like I fit in with the group. The anger and rage of not being able to afford braces for me to feel like I look normal. And I also addressed all of the shame of being Asian that I had to address.  Initially I had gone to a hypnotist to heal and I had to go back and access these young parts of me, including the part of me that was growing inside of my mother's womb. I was the oldest of four kids. What's interesting is looking at the picture, my mother being pregnant with me I knew right then and there that fetus, she was praying for me to be a boy. Because my grandmother used to say to my mother all the time, keep getting pregnant until you produce sons.  As a fetus that's growing we pick up on all those energy. I knew that I was a worthless human being from the very get go. So it was me, my sister, and my two brothers. And even when my grandfather died he only asked for my brothers to go back to Taiwan. And he didn't ask for me and my sister. It's just all the cultural burdens. It's not their fault. They were downloading these beliefs and programming it to us. It's a legacy part that we have to release. It's not my parents' fault that they were fighting with each other or they couldn't be present for me. It's because they are wounded. They didn't do the healing. So when we do our healing that's when we forgive all of the people that have hurt us. And we forgive ourselves. And so I had to do all these healing, repairing all these young parts of me that didn't feel... Because when you're experiencing that kind of trauma. You take on the beliefs that I must not be worthy. I must not be lovable. I must not be enough. That's why I get discriminated against, that's why I get made fun of.  And what happens is there's parts of you that go into overdrive to try to overcompensate, so the overachievement gene. You're overachievement to try to show that you are worthy. So my drive to make money to make myself look good. Now we're doing it for the wrong reasons and that's why it will come back to haunt you especially in midlife. Dr. Veronica: Some of these issues that are societal and cultural don't necessarily go away. But there are people who end up thriving because they heal from them. And people who are hurting with spiritual, emotional, and physical issues want to know how to heal. So you talk about this negative self-talk and how to be extraordinary. And you specifically talk a lot about people attracting love into their lives and why they cannot attract love into their lives. I deal with people like this all the time and one of their biggest sources of pain is they don't have a life partner. And so you talk about, "Hey, this is what you're doing wrong. Here's how you shifted." Talk a little bit about what people attract in their life. Because people just feel like, "I always get the bad guys or I never get the bad guys."  We're in a culture now as African American women, we feel like we're the last chosen. I look at Asian women, I think, those are the pretty dolls that everybody wants. Everybody wants an Asian woman. Which I think is a burden to be thought of like that of course. On the other side when you're put up on that pedestal and everybody wants you and they're going to take care of you that's different than being from a group of women where you feel like you're the last chosen all the time. Emily: Yeah. I find that fascinating. Knowing how I grew up, like, "Why would they want me? Here I am, the Asian that nobody wanted." And now all of a sudden all these men... Dr. Veronica: Everybody thinks you're hot. Emily: Why didn't they think I was hot when I was growing up? Wayne Dyer famously said you will not attract what you want into your life, you will attract who you are. So if you're attracting the same losers over and over again it's because it's a reflection of who you feel you are on the inside. So if you don't think you're worthy that's the energy that gets transmitted. And if you're addicted to stuff you're going to attract another addict. If you're so used to watching your dad beat the heck out of your mom or vice versa then that's a familiar energy. So you're going to attract that energy because that little girl inside of you who has not been healed is attracted to the little boy inside of him that has not been healed, so it's familiar.  The goal of a love relationship is for us to finish childhood. And that is why we are attracted to the people. There's one group of people that is attracted to the people with the positive and the negative qualities of the people that hurt us in the past. "Oh my gosh, no wonder I'm attracted to my father, or my mother, whatever," that's one group of people. And then another group of people is because they experience so much pain they end up attracting somebody's who's safe, who they don't go through the emotional ups and downs with. And they just live life more or less like roommates.  So absolute joy and love relationship is not going to happen without absolute depth of pain. Because the pain when you're triggering each other, you can't get along. But there's a part of you that's like, "But why am I so magnetically attracted to him?" It's because he is reminding you of somebody from the past that you have unfinished business with.  And when you recognize that and say, "Okay, he yelled at me for the way I emptied the dishwasher." I know this is not life or death but there was a part of him that reminded him of sloppily you emptied the dishwasher. Nothing is lined up directly in the cupboards. That's like a part of him that needs order and detail. And it's because it's a part of him from the past that is reminding him of the order and detail that mom used to have or whatever. Mom used to yell at him for not having things in order. So now he's trying to re-live that life through the partner and he's nitpicking on every little thing. Dr. Veronica: Turn that around just a little bit because there are people who are watching where they've been through the trauma and they get it why they were attracted to that partner that's not serving them well now. But on the other side there's people who are in relationships that seem to be doing well and it seems to be working. What's going on there? Emily: Relationships that seem to be working, you do have to eventually do... If you really want mind blowing, emotionally intimate relationships you have to work on yourself individually, and you have to work on couple relationship. Because you have to recognize that the stuff that pushes your buttons, the triggers, it's all a gift for you to grow intimately closer. And you have to recognize that when there's that angry edge that comes out it's not really anger towards you, it's really anger towards himself and towards somebody in the past.  Maybe he's so angry at the fact that you don't keep things in a neat way. Because it's really residual anger and rage towards his mother for making him do things just so. And so it's that residual anger that's coming out when he's sees that you're not really behaving in the right way.  When you recognize that that's where it's from this is when you... let's say you're the female partner, you could say, "Hey Dan, can this part of you that is so neurotic about order, can that part of you just chill out a little bit? I just need a little bit space here. What does it need from me in order for this part of you to relax?" Essentially now there's three people in the conversation. It's yourself, the husband, and then the part of the husband that has his need for order. So you're not blaming him, you are saying this is this part of you that is showing up in this relationship. "Now, you're reminding me of my father the way he used to scold me of how sloppy I was." And it just goes back and forth. When you both recognize it that is where the true healing can take place, to say, "Hey Dan, let me hold your hand. Just let this part of you know that I'm going to do my best to make it a little bit neater the next time. And if you could just relax. Nothing bad's going to happen if the dishes aren't quite stacked up in an orderly way." And so that's when intimacy happens. And so you need a tool set to understand, you're going through the doorway for Dan, this part of him that is neurotic about order. You get to know this part of him. Sometimes he gets to know this part. You kind of separate out. Maybe you use a glass, maybe the image comes out as the soldier or whatever.  We have these little sub personalities inside of our minds, of these parts of us that are kind of running our show, the voices inside of our head. And you have to separate out from that part and get to know the job of this part that's neurotic about order. What's its job? It's job is to make sure everything's in order. It's just job is to make sure that you are seen as somebody who's neat. It'll keep telling you the story. And you ask it, what is it afraid of if it doesn't do its job of keeping things in order? It's afraid that things are going to fall apart. It's afraid that people are going to judge you. It's afraid that you're going to get criticized. It's afraid that you're going to fail if things aren't in order. And so you peel back the layers. And then once this part tells you its story of why it keeps in this neurotic state then it will show you then who's the vulnerable child inside of you that this part is protecting. He says, "It's that seven year old part of me that is just crying in the closet after mom yelled at me for not lining my books up in the right way." Dr. Veronica: I get what you're saying, but there's all these buttons that have been pushed, starting from even before we're born. You're telling about things that were happening and you're parents and their thought process before you were even born. How do we incorporate that in to make it from a harming experience to a, this is one of the biggest blessings that I realized it is.  I can see things. I'm intuitive and so things flash in and I understand them on a different level more now. I see things that happen when I was young and I realized, "That's why I'm not so happy with the way my body looks in this particular situation." You can know what that is. I've been made the way I am. I love me the way I am. But what do you do when there's the negative signals coming from all over the place. And so as I'm saying, hey, you're saying, "People think I'm hot?" You were getting a signal that has been a positive signal. But for a lot of people they've been getting those negative signals. A lot of people that I work with they're overweight. And they're like, "I've always been a fat kid." And they had that negative story that's been going on and they still have it and the society at a whole is going to continue to have that picture.  And so while you're healing from it, while you're getting back your health give us some keys to switching over into that positive wealth of how the healing begins. Because I know once people start embracing these issues the problems they've been dealing with including health problems, they start to heal and go away. And it's miraculous how all of a sudden, "Oh my god, it's easy for me to lose the weight right now," or whatever it is. "My gosh, my blood pressure is lower. My medicine's lower. My cholesterol's lower." That fear, anger, and sadness that they've been holding on as they let go, the health problems go away. But the society hasn't changed. The culture hasn't changed. How do people start to deal with what's going on in the negative out there that they feel is harming but let it go enough so they can heal themselves. Emily: Yes. And so I started to talk about some of the steps of how you heal, getting to know this part. And so I'm going to describe the typical client that has the fat part. Anybody that's been through a weight struggle has this fat part of me that sabotages. And so maybe this is a good time to mention the gift that I'm going to give them. Dr. Veronica: Oh please, yes. Emily: If the audience goes to nonegativetalk.com they could enter their email and get the whole protocol of how to get to know these parts of you that are holding you back. So this way you don't have to keep taking notes. And if we're going all over the place with our conversation you have a protocol to follow.  A typical fat part story. I'm going to tell you a story of a 40-year old woman that I worked with. She had the same 15 pounds that she was gaining and losing over and over again. She was just disgusted. And she's like, "This is not giving me the energy to do what I need to do for the next step of my career because I'm so consumed with food."  And so we got to know this fat part of her. And I said, "When did this fat part of you begin?" She separated out the fat part. It looked like a Michelin... Because we get images of these parts of us. And so she got this part of her that was talking to her, and she says, "Yeah, this part's telling me that it's been my life since third grade." "Okay, what's its job? Keep you fat, keep you..." Because she emotionally ate, and to soothe the emotional pain because it was afraid... it was the fat part. Let's call her Mary. If it didn't keep Mary far what is it afraid is going to happen to Mary if this fat part didn't keep her fat? It said that it's afraid that Mary was going to get teased and criticized. If she got attention from being thin and beautiful it's afraid that she was going to be judged. And so eventually I said, "Okay. What happened in third grade that had you take on this fat part?" And it brought her to a memory in a third grade classroom when she was just frozen because she has beautiful red hair and she was amongst a sea of brunettes. And so she was constantly teased for her beautiful red hair not only by classmates but by her siblings. That part of her believed that it is not safe to shine because I will be teased. As she grew older and older, every time she just didn't feel good about herself because this part was getting triggered. She just ate to numb out that pain. And she couldn't figure out why she would lose it. She would work so hard, "Let me go on this exercise plan, this diet plan." And then this fat part will come back and just self-sabotage the whole thing.  Because the fat part's like, "You didn't get to know me. You don't even know why I keep you fat. You hate me. So the more you hate the part of you that holds you back the more it will be like, "Oh yeah, you hate me? Well guess what, I'm not going away. I'm going to keep coming back until you pay attention to me and hear my story.  As she got to know the fears of this fat part, and this fat part said, "I'm protecting that third grade part of you that's still in the classroom being shamed and bullied for having red hear." She had to update this fat part to say, "You're holding me back. I'm 40 years old. I'm trying to feel good about myself so I could have the confidence and the courage to go for this next promotion because right now I don't feel good in my body. And the fat part was like, "Really, you're 40 years old now? You're no longer seven? And I'm holding you back? Oh, wow." Dr. Veronica: Let me take it up just one notch because we all have our suffering that we go through and some people may be listening and saying, "She got teased because she has red hair." That ain't a big deal. That's really not a big deal. I was sexually abused. I was mentally and emotionally abused. And it continued for years, and years, and years. I went into a relationship and that relationship was abusive. And so red hair, that's easy.  What do you say to those people who've been through really major challenges and difficulties a lot of times at the hands of people that they trusted? What do you say to people like that about...? It's hard to say, "I'm 40 and I got to let it go when it's just..." How do you let go of that to be able to shine and be the best you? Emily: Yes. You can't just let go and just say, "Okay, I'm not that story anymore. You have to do the healing, especially for these incidences of sexual abuse, verbal abuse, these toxic things. That part of accessing that vulnerable child, that part of the journey, it would be irresponsible for me to say, "You could go and heal this yourself.  You could get to know your fat part. A lot of sexually abused people also have a fat part because it's their insulation against further sexual abuse, which is very understandable. And I've worked many sexual abuse survivors. And so you have to go in through the door way of this protective mechanism, the parts of you that you don't like and that's why you got to get to another story.  And so the sexual abuse part, people have been sexually abused, what I want to share with them is you can permanently get over the shame from being sexually abused. And your whole system has to give you permission through the guide of an expert. You can't do this on your own because you could do further damage to yourself. And if you try to do it on your own without the right tools, there's more and more protectors that are going to be erected to prevent you from actually going there. And so the whole goal is to get the whole protective system... Think of the protective system as soldiers that are guarding the door to the dungeon that's filed with these pained and shamed parts of you. And so when they give the permission, okay, now that you could hear my story of why I keep you fat, why I keep you procrastinating, why I keep you angry. You hear the story and you get it. And we're ready to transform into a more positive parts.  Let me show you the parts of you that we're protecting in the dungeon. And so they'll guide you. The highest self, all love for yourself, your highest self has the power to rescue that young part of you that's in the dungeon. And you, that young part of you will be looking at you, your 40-year old self. And that young part of you because she was abused.  Nobody was there where she felt safe to tell the whole story. A lot of abusers, they keep all that to themselves. And so when this four year old girl that was abused can safely trust you, the highest self. She tells you her story. She tells you what happened to her. She tells you the burdens that she's been holding on to, burdens of worthlessness. "I'm not lovable. I'm not enough. I'm dirty." And let her flesh all of that out to you.  And then you give her what she needed at that moment of trauma. And you pour all the love, I'll tell her it's not your fault your uncle abused you. He's broken and we have to forgive him. What counts is I love you. You are enough. And that's released as burden, that's like get it out of the body. And people hold it in certain phases. Maybe for sexually abused people they're holding it in their sexual organs and stuff where they're always clammed up when they're intimate with someone.  Whatever it is the highest self can help this young four year old heart to release all the negative energies and the burns that she's been holding on to. And we could get that four year old part unstuck from the past. Let's get you out of that house, out of that bedroom, and let's go into my current home. And let's burn that house down. If she wanted to burn the house down you help her to burn the house down.  And so as you're actually doing this, this is actually rewiring the memories at the cellular level. Untangling the trauma and then... it's called memory reconsolidation where now the new memory of when you think about this four year old part of you that's been abused, now you think about how your higher self just giving her love, and hugs, and say, "I love you. I got you." You're the one that you need in order to heal yourself. Dr. Veronica: Emily, again, tell people where they can go to get stared with your type of techniques. And before we give that I just got to say to the audience, one thing that Emily said is about you can't do this yourself. Now, in our culture and society everybody's going to Dr. YouTube and getting a degree on the university of Google.  And there's all kinds of "self-help books." But what people who are high performers know, who are in successful in life, who are healthy and happy is you have to have somebody who's an expert to show you the way. It's like when you drive a car. Somebody has to teach you how to drive that car. Would you get into a plane and pilot yourself after you've watched it on YouTube and read it on Google? So reach out to get help. There are traditional doctors and therapists but how's that been working for you? And then there are people like Emily Filloramo and her main website, bemoreextraordinary.com. But Emily, tell us about where people can get your gift again. Emily: nonegativetalk.com will give you the protocol. And then if you want to also learn more after you look at this protocol I would recommend that they read my book, How to Permanently Erase Negative Self-Talk. People, they write me letters to say, "I cried during your book because so many of the stories hit home for me." I said, "The first step to change is awareness." And reading my book and understanding the whole landscape of the internal family system model of psychospiritual healing, you're going to understand, "Oh my god, it is not my fault after all that I'm stuck. It's not my fault that I am fat."  Now, do I want to do something about it? That's a whole another phase of change. So sometimes people want to stay stuck in their negative stories because that means you don't have to answer to anything. You don't have to finally show up. And if that's what they choose to do it's their prerogative. Dr. Veronica: That's where they are. And so we're talking about this for health reasons, why? Because it's just not about diet, exercise, and supplements. It's not just about diet, exercise, and supplements. It's about a lot more than that. Emily: And what's interesting is when I was going through the training with internal family systems my teachers and professors were saying... since I used to work in the pharmaceutical industry, "Imagine if everybody healed themselves, came home to their true self and felt really good, and forgave everybody, you know what, we would not need the pharmaceutical industry. We would not need the diet industry. And all of this emotional burden stuff would be released. We don't need pills, we don't need diets because it's going to naturally heal our bodies. We will be taking many industries out of the water."  That's how powerful this is. Not that we're going to bankrupt all of these industries in our lifetime because there's just so many layers to this. Because internal family systems is not a pharmaceutical pill that some rep can go and sell to you.  Pills are the easy way to [Unintelligible 00:46:52]. "Okay, I have fibromyalgia, let me take this pill." Fibromyalgia is trying to tell you something. Cancer is trying to tell you something. It is a protector that's saying heal emotionally already. I think you and I both know epigenetics and all that stuff, 80% of diseases are caused by environmental things, things that happen to us, and it's not just genes.  Dr. Veronica: It is not just genes. Emily: You can't blame it on your genes.  Dr. Veronica: Root cause of every illness and injury is a spiritual and emotional issue which triggers and goes along with those environmental, genetic, and lifestyle factors. But if you don't have the spiritual, emotional issue sitting there in the first place is not going to trigger even the genes. You got the breast cancer gene. You're going to get breast cancer because you have an issue. Live your heart chakra in that energy center.  Emily: Exactly. If you ask most breast cancer patients why they got breast cancer, it's like, "Oh, I stayed in my marriage too long. It's the toxicity for my husband, that's fine.  Emily: Baggage with my father... Your body's always talking to you and you got to do this virtual healing, and yes, spiritual healing is not a pill. And you have to find a practitioner that you resonate with. And so if traditional psychotherapy, self-help programs have not gotten you to the finish line it's because you haven't found the right modality. Traditional psychotherapy can get you stable but really move the needle. You got to do this "clean up duty" with internal family systems.  Most of the people that are training internal family systems are psychotherapists, you could fine someone near you by going to selfleadership.org. You'll get that information or not, When you're down on my e-book. You go to that website to find somebody near you. They may even take your insurance.  And then there's a bunch of us that are trained, that are not therapist that takes internal family systems way beyond psychotherapy to help people unleash extraordinary, to help people become better leaders. Exactly, and so this is how powerful this is because at its root this is spiritual cleaning. This is not psychotherapy. You got to rescue all of those parts of you that are still stuck in the past burned with the emotional pain of getting bullied at school, sexually abused being made fun of, or you felt like you didn't matter. All those parts are just still frozen and old memories. You got to go and rescue those parts and come into the present with you. Because these parts of you now transform into something positive and they get on the same sheet of music. And they become a part of your inner team, an orchestra member that's actually playing along with you. Because you want to go from point A to point B, you want to make the world a better place, well, you got to get rid of this inner conflict that's up here. And when you fully believe in yourself, when you're madly in love with yourself that's when your vibration changes, and that's when you attract all the people and the opportunities that you need in order to launch yourself into greatness. Dr. Veronica: Fabulous. And we're going to be able to close right there. Before we close with Emily Filloramo give us the gift website again.  Emily: It's nonegativetalk.com. Dr. Veronica: nonegativetalk.com, and the book is How to Permanently Erase Negative Self-Talk: So You Can Be Extraordinary. Emily's other website is bemoreextraordinary.com. Thank you so much Emily. Emily: Thank you so much Dr. Veronica for having me on. Dr. Veronica: Hey everyone. I want to really thank you so much for listening to my new podcast, Dr. Veronica's Wellness Revolution. I really enjoy helping others regain their health. So if this episode helps you, it can definitely help others. Do me a favor. Give us a five star review on iTunes to help me spread this message.  And because I really appreciate your help so much I will be giving away a $25 Amazon gift card each week to a random individual. Check the show notes of this episode for the details on how to win. Thank you so much. Take care. Female VO: Thank you for listening to the Wellness Revolution Podcast. If you want to hear more on how to bring wellness into your life visit drveronica.com. See you all next week. Take care.