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They say new York drinking water is some of the cleanest— don't buy it! I saw a billboard that said 8 glasses of tap water will prevent a heart attack. That's because it already has so much asprin in it! Yooo! Don't drink that! “Some of the cleanest drinking water in the country” Then what the fuck is in the tap water in the rest of the country?! New York tap water ain't right! It's not. Even my brita filter is like “Well, I'll do my best” But it doesn't. I drink tap water out the brita filter and I'm still like “Well geez, I'm sleepy” Fuck that. I moved to New York and had to double triple my budget for water. “New York tap water is “potable” What doe ther even mean. Notice it's not the word “safe” or “healthy” or “clean” It's “potable” Which means— It passes for people we don't really consider people anyway. If you can't afford a real clean water then you deserve whatever's in this mess here— “It's potable” Don't trust that. This is coming from the same government that tried to tell us ketchup was a vegetable. KETCHUP IS A VEGETABLE = NEW YORK DRINKING WATER IS SAFE TO DRINK. THIS IS THE SAME LIE. TRANSACRIPT: (Uncorrected, cause this is a lot of words.) We'll see how bad it gets. Good morning Krusty crew! you guys are Kusty crew now. I'm sure at least a few of you listeners are Krusty, like my morning voice. Hello. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. I'm just kidding. They're not paying me. However, I always have like a particular difficulty, like retrieving my Amazon fresh order, and I'm pretty sure so that it's it's so that I can come back on here and be like,Yo, okay, like what the fuck is up with Amazon? And allthough I don't think they need advertising. I haven't seen an actual television and like years, but I've never seen a commercial for Amazon. I've never seen a commercial like they don't need it. They fucking totally cornered the market on every fucking thing you need. Everything. like to the point that some people are like specifically like anti-amazon, which I don't know, I think I want to pride myself on being anti-amon for a while, but really Amazon was like anti-me. They're like your identity. You're sketchy. Now, who are you? I like I couldn't I couldn't Amazon for the longest time and it caused me the greatest difficulty in my life. I was literally paying like more for everything that I needed period. There was no like there was no finagling. I just love finagling. I don't know why. There't there was no getting around it. Like I couldn't just like oh, like here's a here's a fucking alternative to Abbott, there's no alternatives. Like I found companies in the process of doing that that I do like, but like I still have to revert back to Amazon because like most of those companies are like really good, like sustainable companies and like organic companies and like even small businesses, but at the same time, because they are those things, they cost me more and so it's like I can't afford like not to do this anyway. what's going on? We get an episode today. Well, we get we get an episode. We according to this Amazon hall, by the way took two days, like I thought that I was making an order because I was well, here here it is. It's like this was my equivalent for like drunk ordering anything. I don't drink. But if there, you know, if there's like a close, you know, like, I don't know. I don't think I could actually manage to my indigenous heritage kind of grants me like a certain functionality when drinking, although there's like a level. There's like a limit. Like I go from completely functional and like cooperative to no, like very quickly. So I don't think that I could be the type of like blacked out drunk person to order on Amazon. But if I were, this is this is the order I would have made. I guess you could I guess you could kind of compare the fact that like I went out after, what, two days of not working out? I had to go run an errand and that was the worst. That was the worst. I went out in New York ugly for the first time and I went out in New York ugly for the first time in a long time because I I was like, okay, I learned my lesson. like don't be ugly in New York. So I went out ugly because I didn't care. I was like, okay, well, I have to do this fucking errand and everything was bad. Everything went wrong. Everything was bad because well, I mean like I blamed myself I wasn't working out. I think I ran like a considerable amount that day and did like maybe 15 minutes on the pelone, but it wasn't enough. because I I went out and like lights were flickering and there was I was like, what? fucking side dimension is this is not where I live? This is not the place, this is not the place. and so I went out and I had a horrible time, and when I came back, I was like, fuck it, I'm hungry. and I'm pretty sure I just did what's fucked up is damn, I meant to Google. I meant to Google whatever the fuck the thing is that you do before Passover. I'm pretty sure it's called Schchitz. Like I'm not 100% sure because I keep telling myself like I'm gonna Google that. Passover is literally like tomorrow. But also I just got rice. And I left lintils off of my I think lintils is a no, no. I think it's disputed. Like people are like lintels and oats and some people are like yes, and some people are like no. And I'm like,Yo, dude, well, I'm vegan. And a lot of Jews are not, so I mean, like can't we just like substitute, but like the whole point of schitz or whatever you call it, I need to look it up. I'm pretty sure it's Fish. Sch fits like 90% sure, but that's I mean like 90 still 90's and A. It's a low A, but it's an A. And so I think it's something close. I think it starts with the S and ends with a Z like most Jewish and or Yiddish slang terms. or words. I don't know, I love Jews. I'm obsessed with them. I've been thinking about going to like actual services on Saturdays. However, I I like I find it hard to actually move myself on Saturdays in New York. I'm like there's too much. It's too much. It's too much. I don't wanna be out. fuck this. I don't wanna go out even if it's like too a Jew church, like it might be worth it. Especially if it was like like you know, nothing like Mormon church, not in the middle of the day for five hours. Not in the middle of the day for five hours, it might be. I mean, like I don't I don't know. I don't know anything about the actual, like I don't know anything about that shit. I just have it somewhere in my body. I'm like Jew things. hello Jews. anyway. it's no secret. I love Jews. I love Mormons. I actually like all the people. especially people who practice religiously like religiously. I'm like, oho, dude, like, well, I mean like they're extremists, but they're extremists atheists. so I mean like both of like just to be an extremist in any way is wrong. I worked very, very minimally for in for an extremist vegan last year, and I'm still traumatized by it. I still like he grabbed my backpack to keep me from fucking catching the bus and which, by the way, was the day that I lost my wallet. I specifically blame that. like I blame him for that. like I dropped my wallet because he was like, oh, we have to do this or we have to do a group hug. And he like, I was like, oh, nope, my bus is coming and he grabbed the in and he grabbed the back of my backpack and like for some reason now he grabbed the back of my backpack and I was like, what the fuck you doing? He was like, we have to do a group hug. And then I was like, yo, and then I ended up running for the bus and like g getting paid and not having my wallet with me by the time I got back to my apartment, cause I was like shaking him. I was like, the fuck are you pulling on me? Now every time I get every time I get caught on something, I cuss that motherfucker out. like, I don't know. I don't know if it has any direct, like effect on him, cause like every time, every time I get caught on something, and I feel like the motion of a pull, I I just start cussing him out in my brain. I'm like,uck this dude. I hate you. But anyway, I hated him for a lot of reasons. I didn't quit that job cause he paid in cash at the end of each day. It was like he was like one of those horrible people that's like bro, I don't like and everybody knew it and everybody like tipted and walked on eggshells around this motherfucker. But like he paid in cash. He paid in cash tax free at the end of each day, so it was like, yo, if you could get through the end of each day without quitting, you get your whole paycheck today, which and he was paying like a pretty living wage like over minimum wage for New York. So I was like, okay, all right. But I think that I think that was the game. It was like I was supposed to quit because he was like he was terrible. and it was like, why haven't you quit yet? I'm like, he pays in cash. At the end of the day, like all I have to do is suffer through this fruit. however long it takes to get cash at the end of the day. Then I drop my wallet and that was a terrible thing because he paid in cash at the end of the day and I dropped my wallet and nobody's turning in a fucking wallet with a full paycheck of cash in it. So I never got that wallet back and then I well, we could call it like a draw not too long after because he he was like, why haven't you quit yet? I'm going to make you quit. I'm like, you will not make me quit. I will get paid cash at the end of this day. Cash. Anyway, anyway, it's tax free cash, daily, I'll be back. Anyw, what's going on? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Was that saying something about Amazon? Oh, extremists. I mean, like I don't I don't think that has anything to do with anything, but being extreme oh, he is extremist vegan. Like he would do mean things to you to try to make you be like oh, I give up meat completely and like veganism is one of those things where it's like it's like alcoholism. Like you have to be ready to change. You get or like ear anything, honestly. like any kind of whatever, like you can't make a person do anything until they're ready. Like you can try, but like most of the time the behavior is just gonna revert back to itself like overeating not working out not working out, like the sugar, like dietary changes, like pretty much any like major behavioral changes have to be initiated by that person for like a personal reason. Like you and even if you are going to convince them to change in some way, you have to like you have to suit them. You have to make it kind of seem like it's their idea. Like you can't just force your ideas onto somebody and be like, oh, you're you know what, you're right. Like I would change because you were this fucking mean to me. I'm like, that doesn't make actually, you know what, after a year of going out at New York, I was like, fine. And then I remembered why because I was like, it's not that bad, whatever, sweatuit and I had fucking I've been getting a lot of work done, so I had my nails like Cardi B long for a while, but then I was like, this is inefficient. if for the things that I have to do, like the amount of things that I have to do with my hands, I can get all this done quicker and then do my nails again later as's not gonna be like that big of a deal, because it, you know, like it you do just figure out a different way to do things with your hands. It's like almost like the nails aren't there, except for typing. And I type very fast and I work very fast, so I'm like, okay, like, these nails gotta go. And so they went. And so I've just been down back to bare bones and like natural hair and no makeup and like yo, yesterday, yes, because I did this twice because I was like once you do it once, I was like I was already like in the bottom of like people scowling at me and shit. So I was like, okay, well, you know, scowls, whatever, I can do this again because I have like one more errand and this dude, this kid this kid that works at the Walgreens was like, oh, I thought you were a terrorist. Like, he didn't say that, but he did. He was like he was like, I thought you were gonna lay down and like, I thought it was over. I thought you were gonna like pull out a can of C4 and blow us all up. And I was like, what? And I forgot that I was like usually like when I go out pretty people treat me nice cause duh. felt like when I go out like regular, people are like oh, like oh, like I'm like, oh, is it that bad? That's what I told the kid, cause I forgot like, I'm just so used to like, I'm still the same consciousness. I'm still the same personality on the inside like it don't matter like, you know, like I just ran here. I I'm like high on endorphins or whatever. likeT's like he was like, oh, like, oh, and I was like, oh, God, is it that bad? I have like a cone head because I'm wearing a bun, but I'm also wearing a hat and a hood, cause it's been nicely cold. It's been great and I I'm worried about the environment cause it's not raining. It's spring, like we're about the hop straight from like the dead of winter to summer and it like and I know it's almost summer because it was like 9 pm last night and the sun had just gone down. I was like, oh, that's fucked up. It's spring again. I was like no, as bad news. It's like that's bad news. It hasn't rained once. Like how are the fucking people? Like, what is the birth doing? Because I mean, like the P people are bad. Well, I mean, like no, not necessarily. I just hadn't like, honestly, the people are always the same. It's like perception, so like when I do my hour on the pelotone and my mild minimum run or whatever, and then I go out into the world, I'm like literally don't like all that shit like bounces off of me. Like the people are still shitty. I'm sure of it. but like I'm just just don't care. It's like a shield live like indoor friends feeling at my peak. That's what I feel. But lately I haven't been feeling great so I haven't been working out, so I haven't I haven't been feeling great because I haven't been working out and it is it has the possibility to be what's it called a vicious cycle, but it did it. Like I was I realized it right away that I was like, oh, this is this is wrong. This is wrong, I don't live here. I don't live here, and I had a very good hour on the pillot last night because two two days ago, I was like, oh, this is this is what happened. I went out and I came back and I was feeling like negative. I was like, no, that was a bad experience. I' hungry now because, you know, sometimes anxiety causes my stomach to churn in a way that's like just fill it with something. And I'm like, okay, usually I understand like anxiety, eating and I can avoid it. Like I understand that like, okay, this is stress or whatever. and I can like, you know, just fill my stomach with water as I'm not hungry. I'm like nervous. I'm not hungry I have anxiety. Like most of the time people eat because they're bored, not because they're hungry. And so I'm like, you know, I'm I don't I haven't I don't mind at all. And so I kind of refuse to allow myself to get bored, but like I do notice like like I eat more when I put like, okay, this this Amazon hall says to me that I'm about to make some ball music because it is the equivalent of something that's like I would have done in a state of like a different state of mind or consciousness as if I were drinking. This this like, okay, like our only emptied it pre-pisode because I was sure that I was like, oh, I know I have ice cream in here. I finally found the fucking bin and Jerry's that I wanted. I was so sick of going to the store and looking through fucking like container after container of bin and Jerry's and not finding the one that I rigid like the first one that I picked up, the first time that I decided like, I'm going to give n non-air Ben and Jerry's a try. I've tried all the other expensive fucking ice creams vegans, and I'm for the most like oh, this one's kind of got like ice chips in it's like freezer burnt tasting this one melts funny and turns into like a gelatinous goo. So I'm like okay Ben and Jerry's like knows what the fuck they're doing and they do what's fucked up about Ben and Jerry's is they're non-airy tastes and is texturized, like they regular ice cream. So it's like the closest thing to regular ice cream. I don't get paid by the way, by any of these people. However, I am like now getting into like the the likeet verse of doing things because I have to because I'm like I make too much music for people not to know about it. Like whether it's gonna be like mediocre bass music or eventually like, I don't know, the most legendary bass music of all time. I now have goals. Well, I mean, like I kind of entered into this DJ thing with like the one thing. I was like, okay, like, if I can't be this, like, what is the point of being like anything else if I can't be this good at doing that, like why would I even like and then I realized I'm like, oh, I'm doing like a house oriented sets, but like, yo, I came here for dubstep. Like, what? oh, are we going to talk about some? We have to talk about subtrronics because I can't I'm like, yo, I can't like, what? Like, I understand as a like, I'm I'm a double fan now because I okay, let's finish all these things. Don't go out in New York ugly. Just don't be ugly in New York. Just don't do it. Just try. just try. just try and New York will give you back an energy what you fucking like it's you you get out of it what you put in. Just try, try. I see people wearing less croccks now. This is good, like, but my equivalent of not wearing crocs is like yo like hair and makeup every day, like non-negotiable. Don't be ugly. I'm like, okay, all right, whatever. I get an out, that kid was like, oh, are you a terrorist? I was like, what the fuck, kid? Like, you were you were nice to me the other day. I'm the same person. I'm the same person making the same transaction, what the fuck? Anyway, so I got back from my errands feeling just totally destroyed. and I made this Amazon hall, but I thought that I was gonna eat in a few hours, whatever I was ordering instead of two days from when I was ordering, they were like, oh no, this is the next available delivery window. I was like that is a deficit to like my like, what if I don't want it two days from now? This is technically an impulse decision based on the fact that I'm reacting badly to whatever the fuck just happened outside. Actually, you know what, though. I just unpacked this fucking Amazon hall, which, by the way, I get the most expensive and non-exciting Amazon haul of all time. The only is like of all time, every time I order Amazon, I'm disappointed unless dish soap or like, I don't know, cleaning supplies. I get like a certain I'm like, yes, it's here. Lysyle has a new fucking scent that I'm just I adore it. I'm like, yo, yo, this doesn't smell like anything I've smelled before for like cleaning. It's like the fabulosa ofysol, which why haven't I just been using fabuloso? Fabuloso used to be mad cheap. Now everybody like caught on to the fact that fabuloso is one of the best multiurpose cleaners ever like of all time. No, they're not paying me either, but I don't really care. Like my whole new thing is like, my whole new thing is like everybody's like subscribe this and fucking $15 a month and like y, dude, you're sucking everybody's income out of them, like everybody who's living under a certain level of fucking like everybody who can't just buy things flat out has to buy them on a subscription and if you count up all the subscriptions like that's like the whole like the common American worker right now, like the common one, like not the, oh, I have an okay job or like, you know, you should just get an education or like, whatever you're elitist mentality makes you think that like your life and your privilege is not like your life and your privilege is your merit. That's I'm not talking about you because you skated through life on your genetics, basically, and you think that you earned what you have, but you didn't. Your grandparents and their parents did and blah, blah, blah, and your lucky that way. But the rest of us are out here like $15 a month for this $20 a month for that. and it adds up to like your entire income is like, okay, after your living expenses like you're still gonna be in like a pretty unshakable amount of debt. because you're like, okay, well, I mean, like I can't afford to do it flat out. Like if I did all these subscriptions at once, flat out, and each of them is like 200 hundred a year, if I did them all flat out, I would be like, I don't know, like at least 5K like a year just like at once. I don't have that. Most people don't have that. and so it's like, okay, well, you can break it down and this is how the businesses are fucking people. They're like oh well, I mean like you can pay for it monthly but it's actually more monthly. Like you save money if you do it yearly, but it's like oh, but if I need everything pretty much all at wants if I need everything pretty much all at once and I can't afford to do everything all at once by the year, I'm actually going to pay more doing it by the month, but I can only afford to do it by the month. So this is the thing that's like fucking with me. I'm like, oh, you guys are fucking with people. What's my point? Oh, I don't know, oh, everybody's being fucking greedy as fuck, which is is just leaving a bad taste in my mouth for humanity at all. I'm like, you greedy motherfuckers. Like, I might live this life in an in an ideal way for now, but it is a temporary space of like discomfort in order for me to observe and understand, like, how better my energy can be suited in the next don't I don't. I mean, like my next incarnation needs to be like a body list, like orb of air and light. Like that's I don't want another like human body, because first of all the planet is like unless you guys find like another habitable planet. and like, I'm not in the I'm not in the fucking level yet where they're gonna be like, oh, like you're fucking worth saving, like we'll take you to our like, we'll take you to our Elysium in space, where only the elite people and the people that we deem worthy will be here and we'll leave like pretty much Hollywood's been telling us forever. They're like, yo, we're gonna leave all the poor ugly, colored people on this planet. and like, when this planet is like destroyed by it by pretty much our doing. And we're gonna like float on some kind of system and space because we have no idea for like a second, like a close enough habitable planet for us to then, like just move on to, like, I don't care what you say, like repopulating Mars is dumb. It is dumb. It is dumb. It's not a fucking it's not a happy place. Like because at one point, because at one point it was a habitable planet. And guess what? we're we're pretty destructive species. It's just historically and like beyond historically, because typically once we destroy ourselves, like as a species, all of our knowledge all of our knowledge and records are destroyed with us. So we have this like, we have this sense of knowing within our like within our mega that's like, oh, if something happened here. But what? And some people have actually access to that within their minds and within their consciousness. It's like, oh yeah, it's like, like, yeah, a lot ofass music producers are like, what, you think I'm from here? I don't give a fuck about this. I don't give a fuck about this. I'm like, I get it. Like this is just for now. This is just for now. I might be included in this, but also I'm like, yo, dude, like I'm pretty environmental when it comes down to like this planet is, you know, anyway. was I just saying, don't be ugly in New York. Oh, okay, so I made this Amazon fucking hall, like a drunk fucking person. Although, like a drunk person, I was kind of looking out for my future self because there's a lot of stable, like there's a lot of pantry staples in here that's like, bro, you won' run out of food. like you might have rice blowat, but you won't run out of food because sometimes I do sometimes I spring so much for the organic and for the like for the like vitamin packs, like superfoods they call it superfoods, but those are just regular foods. Like if you strip down all the foods that are not foods, like all the foods that are actually just like chemical and overprocessed, like if you took all those things off the planet, because they shouldn't exist really anyway. Like you would be left with what they call superfoods or what they market as superfoods that are actually just foods. like, no, these are the foods that you were technically like designed to eat. These are the foods that will fuel your energy for whatever the fuck you have to take on. This is the food that you're like you're made to eat. But they call it superfoods and market it as such and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just got bored. Anyway, what the fuck was that saying? Oh, I took I had like had a hand and creating my next masterpiece. Because I got things that I typically don't. I'm I don't fuck with things like that, like snack foods. But as I said before, like we're not produced that snack, I really do, and I haven't been snacking because I'm like, oh dude, like it's not worth it. I'm I'm New York vein like also have these DJs are just like so skinny, and I'm just like, oh, this body shaving, you can't say that or. I'm like, no, like I aspire to be that. so that people actually pay attention not for what I'm doing, but how I look. So trust me, I'm assimilating. I really am. Oh, which, by the way, I have a discord now. I don't know what the fuck it's for. I have no idea I also have a twitch. I have a twitch. There's nothing on it. I have I have pretty much everything. I even got a Snapchat. I haven't had a sn Snapchat since Ollie died because Ollie was my only sn Snapchat friend as it I have a sn Snapchat. This is all for music though. It's not like when I think about it, I'm like oh, this is the dumbest fucking shit ever and I'm do it when I'm fucking I'm actually figuring out like I'm using like I have TikTok eww and well what's great about it is I am using it like as a business tool so I'm not stuck on the shit like I'm not I am scrolling now, but not I'm like what's weird is like my energy is like looking for something. I'm like oh like okay, like this DJ posted something or like this might want a free copy of my fucking of my music to play or whatever. So I should hit them up. Like as I'm using it as a business platform more than like a social platform because I'm just not just not a social person. It doesn't make sense to be, but now I'm understanding like with the feedback that I'm getting that like, oh, this is how you do it. Like I'm not gonna get a job in this industry unless I assimilate to like what I'm hoping doesn't happen is that I assimilate too much because now all of a sudden I'm like I should get a vape I should get a vape like all the kind that I like are illegal in New York. And I'm actually really proud of the fact that I quit vaping when I got here like when I got here because I was thinking that I was traveling outside of the country and like I didn't want to be like I don't know, traveling outside of the US makes me feel like I'm an ambassador for my country so I don't want to represent my country badly. However, I feel like the actual chosen representatives of the country are not doing like the greatest job. so it doesn't matter what I do like because they are technically the ambassadors to this country like they like I'm pretty much aware like a stamp on my head that has their fucking face and or name on it when I go outside the country anyway I don't know I I usually try to assimilate in that way when I travel outside of the country like learn to speak like you're not American because most countries have an opinion about that. They're like oh you're an American deer, they're you're stupid. I'm like I'm not arguing. How many miles is a kilometer? Can you translate this before we hold up? Let me get Google translate? I'm I'm American, man. I'm American to the point where I have the fucking math doesn't make sense. Like it doesn't make sense. Apple pie, I yeah, apple pie. However, though, I realized because of this, and my indigenous heritage, I have kind of like a like a weird, I don't know, I can't I amm not sure. Like I think because of the way that I've decided to craft my lifestyle, I have like kind of an upperhand advantage at like understanding culture, like understanding culture just culturally, like what has happened from like the inside of the like the like the corporate, like conglomerate capitalists, like like set epicenter. Well, I don't know. I've been reading enough about China to be like wow, China. Also, I't I'm loving this. I'm getting I'm getting feedback on my fucking like my what's it called? My stats or whatever. And I don't have a lot of fans and followers, which is sad, which by the way, if you're listening to this, like check check out my other big gold check out the YouTube. It's at the festival project by the way YouTube YouTubeube.com slash at because it's weird that they have like for their backslashes, but it's at the festival project I'm the festival project. There's a whole bunch of people trying to really like I've been telling people that my project is the festival project for a while and now all these people are coming out of nowhere like I'm the festival project. I'm like, you are not. Like, you are not the festival project. Stop lying on yourself. I'm the festival project. I've always been the festival project, at the festival project, that's me, not anybody else. That's you, technically, like the letter you, with no check mark because I'm not paying for that shit. Would I become notable enough to have a Wikipedia page, they'll put the fucking check mark on it for me. I ain't paying for it. I'm paying for it the fuck that like that's like you could buy a grabby award now. I'm sure that you can. I' 100% sure that you could do that. Which is sad and it's likeo, dude, I actually like I what's it? I I don't know. I think I come from a weird world where it's like I hold the academy to like such high regard that it's like I'm like the fact that I'm like pretty certain that you could buy a Grammy makes me sad because it's like like I don't know this whole oh, that's what I was saying. I'm giving away all my shit for free because everybody's greedy motherfuckers. Like I'm giving away my music for free like the album that I dropped yesterday all the rage is 100% free. All you have to do is go on my website and download it. That's it like you don't even have to spend money on a subscription for a streaming service like you could just go get that at my website www.mU.uru. That's the website you can just download whatever the fuck I haven't put all my music up there because honestly I'm I'm realizing how much music I have and like how long I've been making music and I'm like, oh you're like oh okay, first of all, I'm like it's gonna be it's hard it's hard enough for me to just format it and put it on a flash drive just to like have all my music together because I've made it over time and so the expand it it's just a lot like it's just a lot all my music's not in one place, all my mixtapes are not in one place. I just got to sound cloudy yesterday. I only got a SoundCloud to enter a fucking beat making contests the first time I've ever done anything like that like I've entered DJ contests so I can try to get a job, but I've never done a beat making contest, so I've never had to actually like condense my creative space into like a one minute thing. And so, I don't know, I really enjoyed doing that, but it's not something that I was looking at the other contest, they were like, it's for a clout. I'm like, that's stupid. I don't want to waste time on clout. Cloths not gonna pay my bills, anyhho. Clout. Oh, what was I saying? Oh, I was supposed to talk about subtrronics, my Galypes, refrigerator. These Ecuadorian bananas. Okay, I have a like I eat a lot of bananas because bananas and for whatever reason, if found bananas like synonymous with New York City, I always have even before before I lived here, I think it's just because it was like the cheapest thing that I could find is like bananas like bananas. That's what I gonna eat bananas. So I always just kind of like for some reason it was like, oh, from in New York, I need bananas. Now I live in New York and I'm like I see why. But now I'm like my flavor palate is changing to be more specific and so I'm like a banana connoisseur, but I finally like I landed on a I landed on bananas. I landed on bananas that I just love so much. First of all, they're huge, they're huge. I also like these really tiny bananas that are like sweet and little and like they have a very specific taste, and I like the red ones, and yo, that lady when I lived in Mexico, she was so elusive, like she came she was the only lady in the whole place with red bananas and like these red, these really tiny red bananas have like the like they're the best bananas I've ever tried. But the second bananas, the second best bananas I've ever tried are Ecuadorian bananas. and I'm like, yo, dude, first of all, they are huge. Like they're big thick, they're like big, they're big and they're d they're big, big, perfectly sized bananas. good girth. good, nice, just good bananas. They're huge. and uh I don't know, like I started going to the store and then I stopped going to it because rac is oops, I'm not supposed to say that. I I just realize something. I realize something about the world like that you can't even you can't even insinuate like a conversation about race. Like people people will get like people start to get upset, like one way or another. Like I said, extremism on both sides exists. I don't like I can't I'm I'm post racial. Like I can't pick a side anyway like you're gonna put me on one side or another based on your perception of who I am or what I do but like I'm completely like I'm like literally the most neutral thing that ever like literally the most neutral thing that ever. And so what was I just saying, oh, I don't know, I went into a hole. Acuadorian bananas. We'll just we'll just re her back to Acuadorian bananas. Yes, extremism, no. Ecuadorian bananas, yes. They are the best. They are the best, and not only is the size perfect, but the flavor of the banana is just a little bit different from like Guatemalan bananas or Mexican bananas, like no, Ecuadorian bananas. And so now I've gotten into the habit of like, I found another store that has Ecuadorian bananas, thank goodness, because like when I stopped going to the other store, I was like god damn it, they have the Ecuadorian bananas. like that was the one thing from there that I liked and the Uber pancakes. But we'll it's okay. That controversial episode, which I'm like, what's it called? referencing may or may not er. I need to it's like a twohour episode that I did in an emotional kind of turmoil. I need to check that episode to see if I want to air it. It might it might not. Like it could just be like deleted, because I felt like it was forced. I was like why are you try why are you trying to make me act out of my fucking character? Fuck you. Like I don't like when people try to force things. So that sometimes happens where people will come out of the woodwork and be like, talk about this experience. And I'm like, "Yo, dude, you just cornered me into making me feel like unsafe and not great. I don't necessarily and then it was like the energy was like, okay, I have to talk about this, but I didn't like the way that it made me feel. So the fact that it felt forced was like eh but I definitely earned that next tattoo. I'm I'm behind on tattoos I have two tattoos that I have to get it. I definitely earn that one. I earn that one with the help of Erica body, but I'll explain that in some in the multiverse and legends things later. I don't understand how things work sometimes in the universe, but that was one of those things I was like this is this is not even a synchronicity. This is like a this is an experience. We'll see if that episode's worth posting, but either way, I in the tattoo, I earn the tattoo beforehand, that was just the solidification, I think. Anyhho. what the fuck is I say? Ah, Ecuore bananas, yes, yes. Because it makes me think like like, if their bananas are like this, what are their women like? Like, I could give no fucks about the men. I'm not a lesbian, but like, I'm thinking in the way of like a I'm thinking in the masculine way that's like, you know, if they're bananas tastes like this, like, what are their women like Ecuadorian bananas? I think about that, because I'm like yod dude, like my taste profile is based on my diet. So, if these bananas come from Euador, like, what else comes from Ecuador that's fucking perfect. probably women. I don't believe in perfect men. I mean, like perfect looking, sure, perfect acting, sure, a combination of these things to together, rare, but like a per perfect women exist all over the place. Like perfect men. I don't think is a thing. I don't think it is. And that's not me being sexist or like because honestly, if you listen to the way that I speak, like being like a I don't have a preference for gender, just don't be a fucking sh shit hole of a human being. Like I don't care what you are, how you are, like just be cool, you know, like B peaceful and mind your manners and shut the fuck up. I mean like I'm not trying to silence people, but like be mindful of your environment. You know what I'm saying? Be mindful of people around you because there are so many there so many. And you are the focus I to try to say Acuadorian bananas, yes, as good. Are we ready to talk about subronics? Did I talk about all my websites and stuff? We have a discord. It's I think you can find me on discord at blue the guru and it's the same on twitch. I haven't posted anything to twitch yet. I did. I did tape a couple of my performances, but they were horrible. They were horrible and honestly they were just so that I could enter a contest so I could try to get a job. Like that was it. I did that. I was like, well, I have to do something because you you miss 100% percent of the chances you don't take. I believe truly in that so like I would rather enter something that's like mediocre and at least be on the radar and be like, hey, I'm trying. Like I'm really trying with all the things that like all the things that I'm going through and all the work that I have to do like I'm at least trying to get my work seen and I'm at least trying to put it out there and like, you know, the odds of me winning at something like that, especially if it is last minute and it is like mediocre and I know it's not my best performance, which, by the way, I think okay, people really like, oh, this is what I was saying about my audience. One, people really like talkatoo. That's one of my first actual productions, okay? It has almost no technique whatsoever. Well, it does, and I I did work like really hard on it, but like yo, I made that song in a tree, literally a tree, like like a tree. People like this song. It's for some reason gotten really popular, like no out of nowhere. Like people are like this song. I'm like, really? I made that in a tree with no plugins, no I'm pretty sure it's all stock samples. People love it. People love that song, but honestly it is one of my like it is it like it mixes with everything, talking to like if you need like a filler song and I think it is long enough that's like, yo, dude. Like, if you need to go to the bathroom or whatever, like this song is like the song rocks. And honestly, I don't know why that well, I mean, like that song is special. It was the first song I ever heard played back on a system at a festival. because I was like, like here's my music, whatever. And I didn't expect because the DJ was like,, you suck. And I was like, and just be just looking at me because I like ran up during a fucking uh, like a power outage at this fucking rave. I was like, yo, like this this might be the only time that I could actually talk to the you you miss 100% of the chances you don't take. So I was like, okay, like, this might be the only time I could talk to this guy. The power just went out and I was like, then now is my chance because like otherwise mid party and it was a good party, like it was a good one. It was a good it was it was a good one. It was a really great. It was a really great. um but, yeah, that was the first time I ever heard my music played back because I like ran up and I was like yod like here here's me, here's my music, here's a flas I have like you could keep it. has my music on it and it had I think at the I think it just had copy and paste on it like that whole EP was done and so a copy and paste is just talk to this other song called Nero, which has me like hand drumming on it, which is a cool song too. I use the Ableton push. I love the Ableton push and I had to forfeit it because it wasn't going back in my luggage. I couldn't afford it. So somebody fucking I feel charitable about this. Somebody inherited a $1200 at the time that it's depreciated, somebody inherited what I paid $1200 for for free, I think we're even. Anyway, um I add in uteroakatu and 43 on it. That's copy and paste and like, I I ran up during a blackout and I was like here. like, here's my stuff. And he was so annoyed. The DJ was so fucking annoyed. He was like, what are you saying? Like, and if they were like, the powers are, we can't get the power to come back on. so like people had started like a drum circle over in the corner and some people were leaving, they're like, you know, when the power goes out of a fucking festival or a rave like first of all, it's not a it's not a slammer. Like it's not a banging fucking festival and or rave if the power doesn't go out at least once or the cops come. Like if there's no raid, people don't get raided these days, do they? Yeah, that used to bring like a certain element of fucking like fear and excitement that like, yo, this party might only last five minutes. Let's get it anyway. It's New York old New York rave culture. hey, they're having a party over here because we're having a party over here but like shut down that party. Snitches in New York have always been a thing. like, if somebody over there is doing something that competes with your business, like you snitch on them, that would that's old school dance music culture. That's what they used to do, like those little preppy and we're not gonna put a color to it, but those little preppy boys that were like doing the old school, like underground, like break it in raves. Like that's what they were doing. They were like, oh, he's uh doing a there's a party over here in a secret place over here that shouldn't be. But those people were also doing a party and they wanted all the fucking people to come to their party and said that that party. So they were just snitch. They were just like hey, I got a tip. I got a tip on these motherfuckers. And then and then the other party would get shut down and everybody would be like, rolling balls, be like okay, we're still need a I need a party, like where's the other party? And there would always be somebody from the other party there to like usher people to the other party, like, I know where the party is. Yeah, these people. Anyway, I have I have such a love for the culture. What what the fuck was I just saying? Oh, one people have talked to which I made in a tree. That's almost that's almost discouraging. I'm like, yo dude, I'm footing in all this fucking like putting in all this extra work and like this fucking sound design and engineering and like trying to fucking trying to achieve subtronics but sober. Ha ha I'm like, uh, I'm also like ten years older than this kid. at least, excuse me, I don't know what the fuck is happening. Coffee early in the morning. Is my nose running or is it just like, oh, it's almost summer, so we're getting moist in the bitch, like we're just gonna get tepid for the next six months with no rain. Like it's gonna be like the moistures in the air. Enjoy that crawls. anyway I need to figure out what the fuck is schitz is or if that's what it's called. the longer I stay in New York. The easier it is for the old Jew and me to fucking arise. Ugh Anyway, what the fuck was I just saying? Oh, I love this about my statistics. My fans, although there are a few of them are speckled all over the world. I still don't know where Kazakhan is. but I think I have I have a couple listeners in Kazakhstan and they're in two different cities. I'm like that's pretty incredible to me. I was likeYo, dude, where the fuck is Kazakh stand? I don't know. I also found like, okay, like I don't I don't know where half these places are, but like I don't wanna go there although this place this one particular place I'm like oh dude, I don't know where the fuck you're at. I don't know where the fuck you're at and nobody knows where the fuck you're at cause I tried to look you up on a map and it was too distinctively like non places. I was like, is it this place or this place? And they're like it could be this place where that place? And I'm like cracked, but where is it? They're like nowhere, don't worry about it. I'm like damn! Okay, but I have a family there, so that's cool. I got fans all over the world, but they're like speckled. They're not, you know, by the hundreds or millions or billions. Are we gonna talk about that? Eventually, eventually, yes, we'll talk about my love of late night television. Yes, we have talked about that. But not right now. Because that could easily take up a whole episode, easily take up a whole episode. If you ever want to know the state of like if you ever want to know the state of mainstream, America, just check late night, because honestly, that's just like an anchor man dressed up in a little monkey suit as to whatever the fucking day people were talking about reiterated for the night people to understand. It's the same news. They are part of the news networks. I've just realized this cause I'm like oh no that's more like entertainment oh, it's the news. It's just the news kind of funny. It's just the same news that like whatever the NBC oh no, okay, like let's not NBC. Oh, yeah, NBC is doing enough right now. like go. No wonder why they didn't want causeby to buy the network, they would've fucked up their plans. He would have fucked up their plans. I'm like, I don't know what he was gonna do with MBC, but like he would have fucked up whatever they're doing now. That's why they prevented that. They were like, no. no, we have plans. They they're for the foreseeable future. Anyway, let's not NBC, because there's also CBS and uh that's it. At this point, I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty sure they're just like moving towards like the like a mass conglomeration of like, we're all the same. I'm like kind of like, and what's funny is they outfit themselves to pretend that they're like, I like this is so funny how left leaning it is when like all y' motherfuckers swing right easily. But I'm like, okay, I understand that this is for the masses, the masses are left swing. I'm like, okay, this is politics again, let's not do this. But everything is, it really is. Anyway, oh my go, what'll talk about my love for late night honor diff episode completely. Well, I mean, like we have a season devoted to it. We do, because I'm like, oh, they have to be like included in this in into the multiverse in legends, because like basically all of the mainstream pop culture like go like flows through late night TV. like that's where it goes. Like if you heard about it, you probably heard about it on late night TV because it is media like that's like anybody who's anybody goes through late high TV. I will not talk about all of I mean like there's so many different there's not really variations. I just said what it is. They're basically anchormen that are disguised not as anchorman. They are giving you the same news from the morning time news or the daytime talk shows, but watered down so that it seems like different news, but it's not as the same news all day. They work for the network, the network works for the dest network work for it themselves. What the fuck? I haven't figured this out yet, like on an intellectual level, I'm starting to, but it's one of those things where it's like mm kid, curiosity killed the cat. Curiosity killed and skinned many cats. Don't look here. I'm like, I got it, I get this. I got it, shut up. Shut up. Let me sit my fucking mug. guys when it comes down to it, I am assimilating well enough to be like, okay, I'm on Instagram twitch. Fucking I'm on Twitter, which is now X. I don't know. I think so. I have it. It's there like I don't use it or anything, but like I'm trying to see what the engagement for this upcoming season will be and if it works, then it works, but I have kind of thought about shooting this podcast in like a if I'm going to do anything, it's going to be anhilate night format where I have like a specific set of like this is what we're going to talk about. I do have a monkey suit picked out. I do have that because I like the format. It's easier it's easier for me to digest and then regurgitate information for my fans and followers this way. Like that's I don't know, like besides the fact that like I have been studying comedy for like the better part of two years now and that I grew up screenwriting and w like, ah, I don't know, like like I get it, though. I get why I'm so like hardwired to this. It's like yo dude, like via the television, we're so comfortable with these people because it's like oh like you're in my house like Lin Letterman, you're in my house like my whole entire existence, my whole childhood. So it's like that's like familiarity to a point that you can't you can't shake it. So like you can grow up and like, you know, the next the predecessors of the next and the next any man comes and like takes over the role of the last any man, but also like evolves the masses for the next coming generation and like the traits of the like it's it's a very interesting culture. I'm obsessed. like I love late night TV. I love TV, but I love late night TV specifically and we'll talk about that more in depth. I guess at some point because I do have to explain this entire weird what seems like an offshoot season well, it was kind of an offshoot season because I lost a season. I don't know what the fuck happened to it. Well now I'm going through my hard drives and I'm like, here it is. It's in here. It's all in here. I'm like, oh, so here we will answer my question. Soon, what did I write last year? I don't know. don't know at all. I really don't. I know a post in some of it. Some of it got like mirrored back in the universe, like, did you know you wrote this? I'm like, no, it's kind of prophetic in a way. just kind of happened. It took over my body anyway. What did I write last year? I don't know. Somebody read it. Somebody read it and then I have to do I have to do more like protections for my intellectual property because yo, I wrote half the Super Bowl commercials facts. I did I did. I was like yo,ude, I wrote this. Michael documents, what the fuck you do I Google documents? Like fuck you like fuck you unless that money is going into a pool to later pay me. When I like reach a certain level as an incentive, like we know we stole this from your fucking show, which, by the way, is just available online to anybody who fucking wants to copy and paste it and the descriptions you idiot. Yeah, I'm like yeah, well I mean like I can't really afford to join the writer's guild. They're like in that respect we will rip you off. only so that I can make sure that this commercial reaches your eyes and time for you to understand that like yo, you just put this out here for free. I'm like well love is free and music should be free. Like I'm technically just taking like a bag like a like a back step to like what the fuck is happening in the corporate world, which is sucking people like it's bleeding people who are already tired dry. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to be like, you know, like like, like, yes, I put like a PayPal about me link like if you want to donate to the festival project or later the complex collective cause I will not collect donations for my nonprofit until it's actually I've actually established the nonprofit as a 501 C3 and so like like the way that I'm doing my music right now is that like half of my profit goes to the festival project, which is like my my label, my independent label and media company. But the other half of my my like income, my earned income from music or, you know, however I earn or monetize, goes to the complex collective, which is a completely nonprofit organization, like meant to contribute back to the artists and like the artist community. not just the artist community, but just like to the overall health and wellness of like the like to to humanity as a whole, I think. Well, that's what the complex collective is kind of it's it's a health and wellness based nonprofit to the charity. So my the way that I what's it the way that I credit myself is that like the I use the complex collective, which is a nonprofit, as my music publisher, so that anything from the complex collective goes into the pool for the nonprofit, because I have to like, I can't consciously go throughout the rest of my life without giving back to my community and that way. like be because the way my life has gone so far, I don't like as much as I want to volunteer, I like well, I tried and then I like the the food bank that I volunteered for was like so and they had some organizational issues. They had some uh leadership issues. And so I was like, this is actually a toxic environment, which sucks. so I decided not to do that and uh and, you know, put all my uh energy of being like a charitable person into like my own, like I'll just my own nonprofits, non-for-profit is to give back to the community to artists and people in it in like transitionary, whatever. um That's the complex collective. So that's that's why you see that. That's why you see that badge on everything. That's the nonprofit sector. It is a subsidiary to the festival project, and I'm pretty much like devote my like I pretty much devote my my uh my gains, so to speak, into like both pools. Eventually, I'll have enough to then solidify the nonprofit with a um well, I have to you know, you have to pay. It's not it's not free for nonprofit. It's not. And so that's what that is. What else was I saying? Fans all over the world? Yes, we have fans all over the world. It's really cool. A lot of these places I've never heard of, but I do I find it a little bit, uh heartwarming and chanting, like I'm a little bit magical that like I'm hitting people in like some of the major dance cities, like Sal Paulo, Brazil, and uh like like places that are Amsterdam, London, uh I have more. I have more people in the UK than I thought, but it's okay because I I like them. I like them. Well, I like people. I like people that are people. Well, people be people on it so not all the time. Like sometimes I'm like, oh, this is like this is characteristic of your species. Like this is why this is this way. Like this is this is a whole human thing. It's not attractive at all. But I think we' close to an hour, I'd had to be oh, six minutes what do I got for six minutesronics. I'm I can't okay, I love subronics like as like Won as a fan because I went to a few of his performances. I'm not gonna lie. Every time his whole audience has BO. everybody. I'm like, oh, nobody in here has D right. But I think I got my fucking I don't know, maybe it was a sign. I was I was mixing the other day like nonstop and I'd been running around and I have a special jacket that I wear when I DJ that's like a really it's like a nice, I don't know what material it is, but it's really nice, like a uh a sports jacket, like a bomber. No, it's not a bomber style. It's like a I can't I can't remember this. It's like a sports jacket, but it's this material that's really nice. it's just always been my DJ jacket. It's like my lucky DJ jacket. and uh I usually wash it like on a delicate cycle and don't put it in the dryer to keep it preserved because it's really, really nice and I had been running around for a couple days and then mixed for like a solid, I don't know, I was in there like all together, I was in there, I think like nine or ten hours and I spent most of those the most of that time, like actively mixing because my music was not it was not s synched, so I had to hand pitch everything on four decks, which was overwhelming, which, by the way, I also did not know, which is why, like you like I did post at least one of the videos. but it's I'm embarrassed. I'm wearing yellow. yellow's not a good color. I'm looking heavy as fuck, like, oh, man, they had that video in the sidebar next to this girl, that's like a size double zero model. like fucking DJ and the rainforest with like grown footage and like HD, like, and then all her videos were like, she was she was like DJing and the one was like in the rainforest. one was like on a beach. Like she just had like she was all these destinations that had the drone footage, like money, but also like beauty just like pure beauty. Like she didn't have to do good. Like her music sounded good, but like she looked awkward as fuck not being able to dance to her own music. But still, like the like what why would you be paying attention to that when A she's beautiful, that's a distraction, be drone footage of like whatever the fucked rainforest or like tropical beach, like she was everywhere. I was like fuck this bitch. And algorithm's like Toby salty. I was like, I'm a little salty because it showed my thumbnail next to her thumb nail and I was like, no, no, no no. no like, oh so bad. So now I know. I know better than to look fat. Don't be ugly in New York. I was actually in full hair and makeup with my nails done with my Cardi B style nails. Yes, I was, but the yellow shirt on camera and it wasn't the best camera. It was like so I like I I used to have a camera like that when I first got into filmmaking when I was like eight. It was like the same camera. I'm like yo, this is bad. It's really bad. But, you know, all that's investments, investments. I don't think it's gonna be even I don't think it's gonna be any better, which, by the way, some people are delusional, bro. I just got Snapchat. I haven't had Snapchat since Allie died so I've been like I've been away from like that whole world and like seeing first of all, people actually pay money to dress their fucking, like, what are those things called? their little animated. Like, okay, you're paying money to put clothes on a on a 2D creature, you are dumb. That's why they do that, though. I'm like, oh, I need this forage shirt for my fucking Snapchat animated thing. I'm like, that's stupid. I mean, like if you got it. But still, even if you got it, it seems like I could have a million dollars and I still wouldn't spend a dollar to dress a fucking animime character. That's stupid. I like that's stupid. However, these are the same people that are posting actual like I could never post a selfie without filter on, cause I'm looking at myself in the camera with no make up and no hair and like just ugly. And I'm looking at myself in the camera and then one of these filters comes on and I'm like yo, I am beautiful. One of these filters comes out and just automatically made me pretty. And I was like, oh, like, but some people post that selfie and then they're under the or they put that as the background on their phone and they're under the illusion that that's what they look like like bitch, you don't look like that. You don't look like that you should not like that's for fun. You should not send those pictures. You should not you I don't think you should be able to save those pictures. Like, no, like, honestly, and if you post them, wouldn't it be funny if the algorithm just took off all the fucking corrections? Wouldn't it be funny if like, oh, like we see this filter, we'll just take off the filter when you post it. So like it posts with all without the Photoshop or without the filter, that would be hilarious. That'd be a funny hack. But coders who doing more like ethical things are nonethical things. I don't know what hackers do. I got accused of being one once, because I had a bunch of flash drives and hard drives. I realized that this is just like this is just what happens when you become a music producer. I'm like, I don't have space for this. I need more like I need more flash drives. I need more hard drives. I need more SD cards. Like I need space for my stuff. Somebody was like people think you're a hacker. I was like, you're an idiot. But that's hilarious. And that was one of the funniest things I've ever been accused of being, because it's like, bro, if I was a hacker, do you think I'd be staying in this fucking hostel, dummy? Fucking dumb. Why would I be hacking from this hostel? Well, I do really actually, you know what? I think that yes. But also we have more stories to tell eventually, what was I gonna say about subtrronics? I just love this music, very good, very, very good, very good. That's it. I don't have anything else to say. I thought I was gonna take up at least half an episode, because I was actively listening to it. I've been actively listening to it like sober in the middle of the day, but it is good running music sometimes. Sometimes I'm just like, oh dude, like I have to stop running and head bang. like this is inappropriate, this is inappropriate. I don't I don't know, I don't highly recommend a lot of bass music, like in the city setting, because something happens mechanically in your brain, something at least my brain, where it's like, oh, like that shouldn't synchronize this way. That shouldn't do that. Don't do that. why? What frequency? Idiots. idiots. lots the same guy, by the way. This is the same guy. He doesn't like, what's fucked up is he have a whole vehicle, he doesn't leave the neighborhood. Like he's a menace, like he does not leave the neighborhood. He doesn't. like he drives in circles all day. And like that's his that's he has like no other power. I get it. Like I' I'm understanding like I'm studying the psychology of people with small brains like this. is that like he has no power over like the rest of his life, so like that's his that's his like freedom. That's his power as being able to do that for like a second at a time, like he that's it, then he rounds the corner and does it again, then he rounds like the fucked up thing to me is it's like bro, you're not going to go anywhere with that. Like you have a whole vehicle, a whole vehicle, like anything I have to do I have to go on foot. That's I'm not gonna lie to disadvantage. I mean, like it's not too much of a disadvantage in New York, but anywhere else it's like, you don't have a car. I'm like, yeah. I don't. Like New York is probably the only place in the US that you absolutely really don't need one. You really don't. And honestly, when I see people with cars here, I'm like yo dude, I hope you paid that all the way off because like, honestly like if you're in debt for that, like you you lost like, you lost, like you're not going anywhere and it's like depreciating as you drive it, like this just like, I don't know. I saw well, I was on the bus and we hit a car. The bus kept going. Bus kept going and totally did. It did not make it didn't even flinch like the bus was like oops, you were over the line. I was like damn damn. So eventually eventually that person is gonna come out and be like, oh. ho No, anyway, we do have to talk about some of this entered the multiverse. We are over an hour, so thank you for listening. Yay, what I want on the peloton one arm on the pelotone. Again, I'm not getting paid, but I think going against the grain of like corporate greed right now is the best thing. So all of the things that I can possibly like put online for free. I'm putting online for free. um I'm also trying to get I'm trying to start the process of giving away like copies of my album for free and you know, as springtime and festival season gears up, public spaces. Oh, we didn't talk about the fluffer. First of all, I was worried that it wasn't gonna come out. Excuse me, gosh, what is happening right now? Flip? It snot. stuck somewhere trapped in my space. I'm sorry about that. If you can hear that on this recording, I apologize for that. I apologize, but whatever. Ooh, maybe, well, yeah, I do get like weird. I get weird when I don't work out enough, so I did that. I also went to the gym. I ran yesterday, and then I got on the peloton for an hour and I slept hard between like shaking myself awake to be like, my Amazon

They say new York drinking water is some of the cleanest— don't buy it! I saw a billboard that said 8 glasses of tap water will prevent a heart attack. That's because it already has so much asprin in it! Yooo! Don't drink that! “Some of the cleanest drinking water in the country” Then what the fuck is in the tap water in the rest of the country?! New York tap water ain't right! It's not. Even my brita filter is like “Well, I'll do my best” But it doesn't. I drink tap water out the brita filter and I'm still like “Well geez, I'm sleepy” Fuck that. I moved to New York and had to double triple my budget for water. “New York tap water is “potable” What doe ther even mean. Notice it's not the word “safe” or “healthy” or “clean” It's “potable” Which means— It passes for people we don't really consider people anyway. If you can't afford a real clean water then you deserve whatever's in this mess here— “It's potable” Don't trust that. This is coming from the same government that tried to tell us ketchup was a vegetable. KETCHUP IS A VEGETABLE = NEW YORK DRINKING WATER IS SAFE TO DRINK. THIS IS THE SAME LIE. TRANSACRIPT: (Uncorrected, cause this is a lot of words.) We'll see how bad it gets. Good morning Krusty crew! you guys are Kusty crew now. I'm sure at least a few of you listeners are Krusty, like my morning voice. Hello. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. I'm just kidding. They're not paying me. However, I always have like a particular difficulty, like retrieving my Amazon fresh order, and I'm pretty sure so that it's it's so that I can come back on here and be like,Yo, okay, like what the fuck is up with Amazon? And allthough I don't think they need advertising. I haven't seen an actual television and like years, but I've never seen a commercial for Amazon. I've never seen a commercial like they don't need it. They fucking totally cornered the market on every fucking thing you need. Everything. like to the point that some people are like specifically like anti-amazon, which I don't know, I think I want to pride myself on being anti-amon for a while, but really Amazon was like anti-me. They're like your identity. You're sketchy. Now, who are you? I like I couldn't I couldn't Amazon for the longest time and it caused me the greatest difficulty in my life. I was literally paying like more for everything that I needed period. There was no like there was no finagling. I just love finagling. I don't know why. There't there was no getting around it. Like I couldn't just like oh, like here's a here's a fucking alternative to Abbott, there's no alternatives. Like I found companies in the process of doing that that I do like, but like I still have to revert back to Amazon because like most of those companies are like really good, like sustainable companies and like organic companies and like even small businesses, but at the same time, because they are those things, they cost me more and so it's like I can't afford like not to do this anyway. what's going on? We get an episode today. Well, we get we get an episode. We according to this Amazon hall, by the way took two days, like I thought that I was making an order because I was well, here here it is. It's like this was my equivalent for like drunk ordering anything. I don't drink. But if there, you know, if there's like a close, you know, like, I don't know. I don't think I could actually manage to my indigenous heritage kind of grants me like a certain functionality when drinking, although there's like a level. There's like a limit. Like I go from completely functional and like cooperative to no, like very quickly. So I don't think that I could be the type of like blacked out drunk person to order on Amazon. But if I were, this is this is the order I would have made. I guess you could I guess you could kind of compare the fact that like I went out after, what, two days of not working out? I had to go run an errand and that was the worst. That was the worst. I went out in New York ugly for the first time and I went out in New York ugly for the first time in a long time because I I was like, okay, I learned my lesson. like don't be ugly in New York. So I went out ugly because I didn't care. I was like, okay, well, I have to do this fucking errand and everything was bad. Everything went wrong. Everything was bad because well, I mean like I blamed myself I wasn't working out. I think I ran like a considerable amount that day and did like maybe 15 minutes on the pelone, but it wasn't enough. because I I went out and like lights were flickering and there was I was like, what? fucking side dimension is this is not where I live? This is not the place, this is not the place. and so I went out and I had a horrible time, and when I came back, I was like, fuck it, I'm hungry. and I'm pretty sure I just did what's fucked up is damn, I meant to Google. I meant to Google whatever the fuck the thing is that you do before Passover. I'm pretty sure it's called Schchitz. Like I'm not 100% sure because I keep telling myself like I'm gonna Google that. Passover is literally like tomorrow. But also I just got rice. And I left lintils off of my I think lintils is a no, no. I think it's disputed. Like people are like lintels and oats and some people are like yes, and some people are like no. And I'm like,Yo, dude, well, I'm vegan. And a lot of Jews are not, so I mean, like can't we just like substitute, but like the whole point of schitz or whatever you call it, I need to look it up. I'm pretty sure it's Fish. Sch fits like 90% sure, but that's I mean like 90 still 90's and A. It's a low A, but it's an A. And so I think it's something close. I think it starts with the S and ends with a Z like most Jewish and or Yiddish slang terms. or words. I don't know, I love Jews. I'm obsessed with them. I've been thinking about going to like actual services on Saturdays. However, I I like I find it hard to actually move myself on Saturdays in New York. I'm like there's too much. It's too much. It's too much. I don't wanna be out. fuck this. I don't wanna go out even if it's like too a Jew church, like it might be worth it. Especially if it was like like you know, nothing like Mormon church, not in the middle of the day for five hours. Not in the middle of the day for five hours, it might be. I mean, like I don't I don't know. I don't know anything about the actual, like I don't know anything about that shit. I just have it somewhere in my body. I'm like Jew things. hello Jews. anyway. it's no secret. I love Jews. I love Mormons. I actually like all the people. especially people who practice religiously like religiously. I'm like, oho, dude, like, well, I mean like they're extremists, but they're extremists atheists. so I mean like both of like just to be an extremist in any way is wrong. I worked very, very minimally for in for an extremist vegan last year, and I'm still traumatized by it. I still like he grabbed my backpack to keep me from fucking catching the bus and which, by the way, was the day that I lost my wallet. I specifically blame that. like I blame him for that. like I dropped my wallet because he was like, oh, we have to do this or we have to do a group hug. And he like, I was like, oh, nope, my bus is coming and he grabbed the in and he grabbed the back of my backpack and like for some reason now he grabbed the back of my backpack and I was like, what the fuck you doing? He was like, we have to do a group hug. And then I was like, yo, and then I ended up running for the bus and like g getting paid and not having my wallet with me by the time I got back to my apartment, cause I was like shaking him. I was like, the fuck are you pulling on me? Now every time I get every time I get caught on something, I cuss that motherfucker out. like, I don't know. I don't know if it has any direct, like effect on him, cause like every time, every time I get caught on something, and I feel like the motion of a pull, I I just start cussing him out in my brain. I'm like,uck this dude. I hate you. But anyway, I hated him for a lot of reasons. I didn't quit that job cause he paid in cash at the end of each day. It was like he was like one of those horrible people that's like bro, I don't like and everybody knew it and everybody like tipted and walked on eggshells around this motherfucker. But like he paid in cash. He paid in cash tax free at the end of each day, so it was like, yo, if you could get through the end of each day without quitting, you get your whole paycheck today, which and he was paying like a pretty living wage like over minimum wage for New York. So I was like, okay, all right. But I think that I think that was the game. It was like I was supposed to quit because he was like he was terrible. and it was like, why haven't you quit yet? I'm like, he pays in cash. At the end of the day, like all I have to do is suffer through this fruit. however long it takes to get cash at the end of the day. Then I drop my wallet and that was a terrible thing because he paid in cash at the end of the day and I dropped my wallet and nobody's turning in a fucking wallet with a full paycheck of cash in it. So I never got that wallet back and then I well, we could call it like a draw not too long after because he he was like, why haven't you quit yet? I'm going to make you quit. I'm like, you will not make me quit. I will get paid cash at the end of this day. Cash. Anyway, anyway, it's tax free cash, daily, I'll be back. Anyw, what's going on? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Was that saying something about Amazon? Oh, extremists. I mean, like I don't I don't think that has anything to do with anything, but being extreme oh, he is extremist vegan. Like he would do mean things to you to try to make you be like oh, I give up meat completely and like veganism is one of those things where it's like it's like alcoholism. Like you have to be ready to change. You get or like ear anything, honestly. like any kind of whatever, like you can't make a person do anything until they're ready. Like you can try, but like most of the time the behavior is just gonna revert back to itself like overeating not working out not working out, like the sugar, like dietary changes, like pretty much any like major behavioral changes have to be initiated by that person for like a personal reason. Like you and even if you are going to convince them to change in some way, you have to like you have to suit them. You have to make it kind of seem like it's their idea. Like you can't just force your ideas onto somebody and be like, oh, you're you know what, you're right. Like I would change because you were this fucking mean to me. I'm like, that doesn't make actually, you know what, after a year of going out at New York, I was like, fine. And then I remembered why because I was like, it's not that bad, whatever, sweatuit and I had fucking I've been getting a lot of work done, so I had my nails like Cardi B long for a while, but then I was like, this is inefficient. if for the things that I have to do, like the amount of things that I have to do with my hands, I can get all this done quicker and then do my nails again later as's not gonna be like that big of a deal, because it, you know, like it you do just figure out a different way to do things with your hands. It's like almost like the nails aren't there, except for typing. And I type very fast and I work very fast, so I'm like, okay, like, these nails gotta go. And so they went. And so I've just been down back to bare bones and like natural hair and no makeup and like yo, yesterday, yes, because I did this twice because I was like once you do it once, I was like I was already like in the bottom of like people scowling at me and shit. So I was like, okay, well, you know, scowls, whatever, I can do this again because I have like one more errand and this dude, this kid this kid that works at the Walgreens was like, oh, I thought you were a terrorist. Like, he didn't say that, but he did. He was like he was like, I thought you were gonna lay down and like, I thought it was over. I thought you were gonna like pull out a can of C4 and blow us all up. And I was like, what? And I forgot that I was like usually like when I go out pretty people treat me nice cause duh. felt like when I go out like regular, people are like oh, like oh, like I'm like, oh, is it that bad? That's what I told the kid, cause I forgot like, I'm just so used to like, I'm still the same consciousness. I'm still the same personality on the inside like it don't matter like, you know, like I just ran here. I I'm like high on endorphins or whatever. likeT's like he was like, oh, like, oh, and I was like, oh, God, is it that bad? I have like a cone head because I'm wearing a bun, but I'm also wearing a hat and a hood, cause it's been nicely cold. It's been great and I I'm worried about the environment cause it's not raining. It's spring, like we're about the hop straight from like the dead of winter to summer and it like and I know it's almost summer because it was like 9 pm last night and the sun had just gone down. I was like, oh, that's fucked up. It's spring again. I was like no, as bad news. It's like that's bad news. It hasn't rained once. Like how are the fucking people? Like, what is the birth doing? Because I mean, like the P people are bad. Well, I mean, like no, not necessarily. I just hadn't like, honestly, the people are always the same. It's like perception, so like when I do my hour on the pelotone and my mild minimum run or whatever, and then I go out into the world, I'm like literally don't like all that shit like bounces off of me. Like the people are still shitty. I'm sure of it. but like I'm just just don't care. It's like a shield live like indoor friends feeling at my peak. That's what I feel. But lately I haven't been feeling great so I haven't been working out, so I haven't I haven't been feeling great because I haven't been working out and it is it has the possibility to be what's it called a vicious cycle, but it did it. Like I was I realized it right away that I was like, oh, this is this is wrong. This is wrong, I don't live here. I don't live here, and I had a very good hour on the pillot last night because two two days ago, I was like, oh, this is this is what happened. I went out and I came back and I was feeling like negative. I was like, no, that was a bad experience. I' hungry now because, you know, sometimes anxiety causes my stomach to churn in a way that's like just fill it with something. And I'm like, okay, usually I understand like anxiety, eating and I can avoid it. Like I understand that like, okay, this is stress or whatever. and I can like, you know, just fill my stomach with water as I'm not hungry. I'm like nervous. I'm not hungry I have anxiety. Like most of the time people eat because they're bored, not because they're hungry. And so I'm like, you know, I'm I don't I haven't I don't mind at all. And so I kind of refuse to allow myself to get bored, but like I do notice like like I eat more when I put like, okay, this this Amazon hall says to me that I'm about to make some ball music because it is the equivalent of something that's like I would have done in a state of like a different state of mind or consciousness as if I were drinking. This this like, okay, like our only emptied it pre-pisode because I was sure that I was like, oh, I know I have ice cream in here. I finally found the fucking bin and Jerry's that I wanted. I was so sick of going to the store and looking through fucking like container after container of bin and Jerry's and not finding the one that I rigid like the first one that I picked up, the first time that I decided like, I'm going to give n non-air Ben and Jerry's a try. I've tried all the other expensive fucking ice creams vegans, and I'm for the most like oh, this one's kind of got like ice chips in it's like freezer burnt tasting this one melts funny and turns into like a gelatinous goo. So I'm like okay Ben and Jerry's like knows what the fuck they're doing and they do what's fucked up about Ben and Jerry's is they're non-airy tastes and is texturized, like they regular ice cream. So it's like the closest thing to regular ice cream. I don't get paid by the way, by any of these people. However, I am like now getting into like the the likeet verse of doing things because I have to because I'm like I make too much music for people not to know about it. Like whether it's gonna be like mediocre bass music or eventually like, I don't know, the most legendary bass music of all time. I now have goals. Well, I mean, like I kind of entered into this DJ thing with like the one thing. I was like, okay, like, if I can't be this, like, what is the point of being like anything else if I can't be this good at doing that, like why would I even like and then I realized I'm like, oh, I'm doing like a house oriented sets, but like, yo, I came here for dubstep. Like, what? oh, are we going to talk about some? We have to talk about subtrronics because I can't I'm like, yo, I can't like, what? Like, I understand as a like, I'm I'm a double fan now because I okay, let's finish all these things. Don't go out in New York ugly. Just don't be ugly in New York. Just don't do it. Just try. just try. just try and New York will give you back an energy what you fucking like it's you you get out of it what you put in. Just try, try. I see people wearing less croccks now. This is good, like, but my equivalent of not wearing crocs is like yo like hair and makeup every day, like non-negotiable. Don't be ugly. I'm like, okay, all right, whatever. I get an out, that kid was like, oh, are you a terrorist? I was like, what the fuck, kid? Like, you were you were nice to me the other day. I'm the same person. I'm the same person making the same transaction, what the fuck? Anyway, so I got back from my errands feeling just totally destroyed. and I made this Amazon hall, but I thought that I was gonna eat in a few hours, whatever I was ordering instead of two days from when I was ordering, they were like, oh no, this is the next available delivery window. I was like that is a deficit to like my like, what if I don't want it two days from now? This is technically an impulse decision based on the fact that I'm reacting badly to whatever the fuck just happened outside. Actually, you know what, though. I just unpacked this fucking Amazon hall, which, by the way, I get the most expensive and non-exciting Amazon haul of all time. The only is like of all time, every time I order Amazon, I'm disappointed unless dish soap or like, I don't know, cleaning supplies. I get like a certain I'm like, yes, it's here. Lysyle has a new fucking scent that I'm just I adore it. I'm like, yo, yo, this doesn't smell like anything I've smelled before for like cleaning. It's like the fabulosa ofysol, which why haven't I just been using fabuloso? Fabuloso used to be mad cheap. Now everybody like caught on to the fact that fabuloso is one of the best multiurpose cleaners ever like of all time. No, they're not paying me either, but I don't really care. Like my whole new thing is like, my whole new thing is like everybody's like subscribe this and fucking $15 a month and like y, dude, you're sucking everybody's income out of them, like everybody who's living under a certain level of fucking like everybody who can't just buy things flat out has to buy them on a subscription and if you count up all the subscriptions like that's like the whole like the common American worker right now, like the common one, like not the, oh, I have an okay job or like, you know, you should just get an education or like, whatever you're elitist mentality makes you think that like your life and your privilege is not like your life and your privilege is your merit. That's I'm not talking about you because you skated through life on your genetics, basically, and you think that you earned what you have, but you didn't. Your grandparents and their parents did and blah, blah, blah, and your lucky that way. But the rest of us are out here like $15 a month for this $20 a month for that. and it adds up to like your entire income is like, okay, after your living expenses like you're still gonna be in like a pretty unshakable amount of debt. because you're like, okay, well, I mean, like I can't afford to do it flat out. Like if I did all these subscriptions at once, flat out, and each of them is like 200 hundred a year, if I did them all flat out, I would be like, I don't know, like at least 5K like a year just like at once. I don't have that. Most people don't have that. and so it's like, okay, well, you can break it down and this is how the businesses are fucking people. They're like oh well, I mean like you can pay for it monthly but it's actually more monthly. Like you save money if you do it yearly, but it's like oh, but if I need everything pretty much all at wants if I need everything pretty much all at once and I can't afford to do everything all at once by the year, I'm actually going to pay more doing it by the month, but I can only afford to do it by the month. So this is the thing that's like fucking with me. I'm like, oh, you guys are fucking with people. What's my point? Oh, I don't know, oh, everybody's being fucking greedy as fuck, which is is just leaving a bad taste in my mouth for humanity at all. I'm like, you greedy motherfuckers. Like, I might live this life in an in an ideal way for now, but it is a temporary space of like discomfort in order for me to observe and understand, like, how better my energy can be suited in the next don't I don't. I mean, like my next incarnation needs to be like a body list, like orb of air and light. Like that's I don't want another like human body, because first of all the planet is like unless you guys find like another habitable planet. and like, I'm not in the I'm not in the fucking level yet where they're gonna be like, oh, like you're fucking worth saving, like we'll take you to our like, we'll take you to our Elysium in space, where only the elite people and the people that we deem worthy will be here and we'll leave like pretty much Hollywood's been telling us forever. They're like, yo, we're gonna leave all the poor ugly, colored people on this planet. and like, when this planet is like destroyed by it by pretty much our doing. And we're gonna like float on some kind of system and space because we have no idea for like a second, like a close enough habitable planet for us to then, like just move on to, like, I don't care what you say, like repopulating Mars is dumb. It is dumb. It is dumb. It's not a fucking it's not a happy place. Like because at one point, because at one point it was a habitable planet. And guess what? we're we're pretty destructive species. It's just historically and like beyond historically, because typically once we destroy ourselves, like as a species, all of our knowledge all of our knowledge and records are destroyed with us. So we have this like, we have this sense of knowing within our like within our mega that's like, oh, if something happened here. But what? And some people have actually access to that within their minds and within their consciousness. It's like, oh yeah, it's like, like, yeah, a lot ofass music producers are like, what, you think I'm from here? I don't give a fuck about this. I don't give a fuck about this. I'm like, I get it. Like this is just for now. This is just for now. I might be included in this, but also I'm like, yo, dude, like I'm pretty environmental when it comes down to like this planet is, you know, anyway. was I just saying, don't be ugly in New York. Oh, okay, so I made this Amazon fucking hall, like a drunk fucking person. Although, like a drunk person, I was kind of looking out for my future self because there's a lot of stable, like there's a lot of pantry staples in here that's like, bro, you won' run out of food. like you might have rice blowat, but you won't run out of food because sometimes I do sometimes I spring so much for the organic and for the like for the like vitamin packs, like superfoods they call it superfoods, but those are just regular foods. Like if you strip down all the foods that are not foods, like all the foods that are actually just like chemical and overprocessed, like if you took all those things off the planet, because they shouldn't exist really anyway. Like you would be left with what they call superfoods or what they market as superfoods that are actually just foods. like, no, these are the foods that you were technically like designed to eat. These are the foods that will fuel your energy for whatever the fuck you have to take on. This is the food that you're like you're made to eat. But they call it superfoods and market it as such and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just got bored. Anyway, what the fuck was that saying? Oh, I took I had like had a hand and creating my next masterpiece. Because I got things that I typically don't. I'm I don't fuck with things like that, like snack foods. But as I said before, like we're not produced that snack, I really do, and I haven't been snacking because I'm like, oh dude, like it's not worth it. I'm I'm New York vein like also have these DJs are just like so skinny, and I'm just like, oh, this body shaving, you can't say that or. I'm like, no, like I aspire to be that. so that people actually pay attention not for what I'm doing, but how I look. So trust me, I'm assimilating. I really am. Oh, which, by the way, I have a discord now. I don't know what the fuck it's for. I have no idea I also have a twitch. I have a twitch. There's nothing on it. I have I have pretty much everything. I even got a Snapchat. I haven't had a sn Snapchat since Ollie died because Ollie was my only sn Snapchat friend as it I have a sn Snapchat. This is all for music though. It's not like when I think about it, I'm like oh, this is the dumbest fucking shit ever and I'm do it when I'm fucking I'm actually figuring out like I'm using like I have TikTok eww and well what's great about it is I am using it like as a business tool so I'm not stuck on the shit like I'm not I am scrolling now, but not I'm like what's weird is like my energy is like looking for something. I'm like oh like okay, like this DJ posted something or like this might want a free copy of my fucking of my music to play or whatever. So I should hit them up. Like as I'm using it as a business platform more than like a social platform because I'm just not just not a social person. It doesn't make sense to be, but now I'm understanding like with the feedback that I'm getting that like, oh, this is how you do it. Like I'm not gonna get a job in this industry unless I assimilate to like what I'm hoping doesn't happen is that I assimilate too much because now all of a sudden I'm like I should get a vape I should get a vape like all the kind that I like are illegal in New York. And I'm actually really proud of the fact that I quit vaping when I got here like when I got here because I was thinking that I was traveling outside of the country and like I didn't want to be like I don't know, traveling outside of the US makes me feel like I'm an ambassador for my country so I don't want to represent my country badly. However, I feel like the actual chosen representatives of the country are not doing like the greatest job. so it doesn't matter what I do like because they are technically the ambassadors to this country like they like I'm pretty much aware like a stamp on my head that has their fucking face and or name on it when I go outside the country anyway I don't know I I usually try to assimilate in that way when I travel outside of the country like learn to speak like you're not American because most countries have an opinion about that. They're like oh you're an American deer, they're you're stupid. I'm like I'm not arguing. How many miles is a kilometer? Can you translate this before we hold up? Let me get Google translate? I'm I'm American, man. I'm American to the point where I have the fucking math doesn't make sense. Like it doesn't make sense. Apple pie, I yeah, apple pie. However, though, I realized because of this, and my indigenous heritage, I have kind of like a like a weird, I don't know, I can't I amm not sure. Like I think because of the way that I've decided to craft my lifestyle, I have like kind of an upperhand advantage at like understanding culture, like understanding culture just culturally, like what has happened from like the inside of the like the like the corporate, like conglomerate capitalists, like like set epicenter. Well, I don't know. I've been reading enough about China to be like wow, China. Also, I't I'm loving this. I'm getting I'm getting feedback on my fucking like my what's it called? My stats or whatever. And I don't have a lot of fans and followers, which is sad, which by the way, if you're listening to this, like check check out my other big gold check out the YouTube. It's at the festival project by the way YouTube YouTubeube.com slash at because it's weird that they have like for their backslashes, but it's at the festival project I'm the festival project. There's a whole bunch of people trying to really like I've been telling people that my project is the festival project for a while and now all these people are coming out of nowhere like I'm the festival project. I'm like, you are not. Like, you are not the festival project. Stop lying on yourself. I'm the festival project. I've always been the festival project, at the festival project, that's me, not anybody else. That's you, technically, like the letter you, with no check mark because I'm not paying for that shit. Would I become notable enough to have a Wikipedia page, they'll put the fucking check mark on it for me. I ain't paying for it. I'm paying for it the fuck that like that's like you could buy a grabby award now. I'm sure that you can. I' 100% sure that you could do that. Which is sad and it's likeo, dude, I actually like I what's it? I I don't know. I think I come from a weird world where it's like I hold the academy to like such high regard that it's like I'm like the fact that I'm like pretty certain that you could buy a Grammy makes me sad because it's like like I don't know this whole oh, that's what I was saying. I'm giving away all my shit for free because everybody's greedy motherfuckers. Like I'm giving away my music for free like the album that I dropped yesterday all the rage is 100% free. All you have to do is go on my website and download it. That's it like you don't even have to spend money on a subscription for a streaming service like you could just go get that at my website www.mU.uru. That's the website you can just download whatever the fuck I haven't put all my music up there because honestly I'm I'm realizing how much music I have and like how long I've been making music and I'm like, oh you're like oh okay, first of all, I'm like it's gonna be it's hard it's hard enough for me to just format it and put it on a flash drive just to like have all my music together because I've made it over time and so the expand it it's just a lot like it's just a lot all my music's not in one place, all my mixtapes are not in one place. I just got to sound cloudy yesterday. I only got a SoundCloud to enter a fucking beat making contests the first time I've ever done anything like that like I've entered DJ contests so I can try to get a job, but I've never done a beat making contest, so I've never had to actually like condense my creative space into like a one minute thing. And so, I don't know, I really enjoyed doing that, but it's not something that I was looking at the other contest, they were like, it's for a clout. I'm like, that's stupid. I don't want to waste time on clout. Cloths not gonna pay my bills, anyhho. Clout. Oh, what was I saying? Oh, I was supposed to talk about subtrronics, my Galypes, refrigerator. These Ecuadorian bananas. Okay, I have a like I eat a lot of bananas because bananas and for whatever reason, if found bananas like synonymous with New York City, I always have even before before I lived here, I think it's just because it was like the cheapest thing that I could find is like bananas like bananas. That's what I gonna eat bananas. So I always just kind of like for some reason it was like, oh, from in New York, I need bananas. Now I live in New York and I'm like I see why. But now I'm like my flavor palate is changing to be more specific and so I'm like a banana connoisseur, but I finally like I landed on a I landed on bananas. I landed on bananas that I just love so much. First of all, they're huge, they're huge. I also like these really tiny bananas that are like sweet and little and like they have a very specific taste, and I like the red ones, and yo, that lady when I lived in Mexico, she was so elusive, like she came she was the only lady in the whole place with red bananas and like these red, these really tiny red bananas have like the like they're the best bananas I've ever tried. But the second bananas, the second best bananas I've ever tried are Ecuadorian bananas. and I'm like, yo, dude, first of all, they are huge. Like they're big thick, they're like big, they're big and they're d they're big, big, perfectly sized bananas. good girth. good, nice, just good bananas. They're huge. and uh I don't know, like I started going to the store and then I stopped going to it because rac is oops, I'm not supposed to say that. I I just realize something. I realize something about the world like that you can't even you can't even insinuate like a conversation about race. Like people people will get like people start to get upset, like one way or another. Like I said, extremism on both sides exists. I don't like I can't I'm I'm post racial. Like I can't pick a side anyway like you're gonna put me on one side or another based on your perception of who I am or what I do but like I'm completely like I'm like literally the most neutral thing that ever like literally the most neutral thing that ever. And so what was I just saying, oh, I don't know, I went into a hole. Acuadorian bananas. We'll just we'll just re her back to Acuadorian bananas. Yes, extremism, no. Ecuadorian bananas, yes. They are the best. They are the best, and not only is the size perfect, but the flavor of the banana is just a little bit different from like Guatemalan bananas or Mexican bananas, like no, Ecuadorian bananas. And so now I've gotten into the habit of like, I found another store that has Ecuadorian bananas, thank goodness, because like when I stopped going to the other store, I was like god damn it, they have the Ecuadorian bananas. like that was the one thing from there that I liked and the Uber pancakes. But we'll it's okay. That controversial episode, which I'm like, what's it called? referencing may or may not er. I need to it's like a twohour episode that I did in an emotional kind of turmoil. I need to check that episode to see if I want to air it. It might it might not. Like it could just be like deleted, because I felt like it was forced. I was like why are you try why are you trying to make me act out of my fucking character? Fuck you. Like I don't like when people try to force things. So that sometimes happens where people will come out of the woodwork and be like, talk about this experience. And I'm like, "Yo, dude, you just cornered me into making me feel like unsafe and not great. I don't necessarily and then it was like the energy was like, okay, I have to talk about this, but I didn't like the way that it made me feel. So the fact that it felt forced was like eh but I definitely earned that next tattoo. I'm I'm behind on tattoos I have two tattoos that I have to get it. I definitely earn that one. I earn that one with the help of Erica body, but I'll explain that in some in the multiverse and legends things later. I don't understand how things work sometimes in the universe, but that was one of those things I was like this is this is not even a synchronicity. This is like a this is an experience. We'll see if that episode's worth posting, but either way, I in the tattoo, I earn the tattoo beforehand, that was just the solidification, I think. Anyhho. what the fuck is I say? Ah, Ecuore bananas, yes, yes. Because it makes me think like like, if their bananas are like this, what are their women like? Like, I could give no fucks about the men. I'm not a lesbian, but like, I'm thinking in the way of like a I'm thinking in the masculine way that's like, you know, if they're bananas tastes like this, like, what are their women like Ecuadorian bananas? I think about that, because I'm like yod dude, like my taste profile is based on my diet. So, if these bananas come from Euador, like, what else comes from Ecuador that's fucking perfect. probably women. I don't believe in perfect men. I mean, like perfect looking, sure, perfect acting, sure, a combination of these things to together, rare, but like a per perfect women exist all over the place. Like perfect men. I don't think is a thing. I don't think it is. And that's not me being sexist or like because honestly, if you listen to the way that I speak, like being like a I don't have a preference for gender, just don't be a fucking sh shit hole of a human being. Like I don't care what you are, how you are, like just be cool, you know, like B peaceful and mind your manners and shut the fuck up. I mean like I'm not trying to silence people, but like be mindful of your environment. You know what I'm saying? Be mindful of people around you because there are so many there so many. And you are the focus I to try to say Acuadorian bananas, yes, as good. Are we ready to talk about subronics? Did I talk about all my websites and stuff? We have a discord. It's I think you can find me on discord at blue the guru and it's the same on twitch. I haven't posted anything to twitch yet. I did. I did tape a couple of my performances, but they were horrible. They were horrible and honestly they were just so that I could enter a contest so I could try to get a job. Like that was it. I did that. I was like, well, I have to do something because you you miss 100% percent of the chances you don't take. I believe truly in that so like I would rather enter something that's like mediocre and at least be on the radar and be like, hey, I'm trying. Like I'm really trying with all the things that like all the things that I'm going through and all the work that I have to do like I'm at least trying to get my work seen and I'm at least trying to put it out there and like, you know, the odds of me winning at something like that, especially if it is last minute and it is like mediocre and I know it's not my best performance, which, by the way, I think okay, people really like, oh, this is what I was saying about my audience. One, people really like talkatoo. That's one of my first actual productions, okay? It has almost no technique whatsoever. Well, it does, and I I did work like really hard on it, but like yo, I made that song in a tree, literally a tree, like like a tree. People like this song. It's for some reason gotten really popular, like no out of nowhere. Like people are like this song. I'm like, really? I made that in a tree with no plugins, no I'm pretty sure it's all stock samples. People love it. People love that song, but honestly it is one of my like it is it like it mixes with everything, talking to like if you need like a filler song and I think it is long enough that's like, yo, dude. Like, if you need to go to the bathroom or whatever, like this song is like the song rocks. And honestly, I don't know why that well, I mean, like that song is special. It was the first song I ever heard played back on a system at a festival. because I was like, like here's my music, whatever. And I didn't expect because the DJ was like,, you suck. And I was like, and just be just looking at me because I like ran up during a fucking uh, like a power outage at this fucking rave. I was like, yo, like this this might be the only time that I could actually talk to the you you miss 100% of the chances you don't take. So I was like, okay, like, this might be the only time I could talk to this guy. The power just went out and I was like, then now is my chance because like otherwise mid party and it was a good party, like it was a good one. It was a good it was it was a good one. It was a really great. It was a really great. um but, yeah, that was the first time I ever heard my music played back because I like ran up and I was like yod like here here's me, here's my music, here's a flas I have like you could keep it. has my music on it and it had I think at the I think it just had copy and paste on it like that whole EP was done and so a copy and paste is just talk to this other song called Nero, which has me like hand drumming on it, which is a cool song too. I use the Ableton push. I love the Ableton push and I had to forfeit it because it wasn't going back in my luggage. I couldn't afford it. So somebody fucking I feel charitable about this. Somebody inherited a $1200 at the time that it's depreciated, somebody inherited what I paid $1200 for for free, I think we're even. Anyway, um I add in uteroakatu and 43 on it. That's copy and paste and like, I I ran up during a blackout and I was like here. like, here's my stuff. And he was so annoyed. The DJ was so fucking annoyed. He was like, what are you saying? Like, and if they were like, the powers are, we can't get the power to come back on. so like people had started like a drum circle over in the corner and some people were leaving, they're like, you know, when the power goes out of a fucking festival or a rave like first of all, it's not a it's not a slammer. Like it's not a banging fucking festival and or rave if the power doesn't go out at least once or the cops come. Like if there's no raid, people don't get raided these days, do they? Yeah, that used to bring like a certain element of fucking like fear and excitement that like, yo, this party might only last five minutes. Let's get it anyway. It's New York old New York rave culture. hey, they're having a party over here because we're having a party over here but like shut down that party. Snitches in New York have always been a thing. like, if somebody over there is doing something that competes with your business, like you snitch on them, that would that's old school dance music culture. That's what they used to do, like those little preppy and we're not gonna put a color to it, but those little preppy boys that were like doing the old school, like underground, like break it in raves. Like that's what they were doing. They were like, oh, he's uh doing a there's a party over here in a secret place over here that shouldn't be. But those people were also doing a party and they wanted all the fucking people to come to their party and said that that party. So they were just snitch. They were just like hey, I got a tip. I got a tip on these motherfuckers. And then and then the other party would get shut down and everybody would be like, rolling balls, be like okay, we're still need a I need a party, like where's the other party? And there would always be somebody from the other party there to like usher people to the other party, like, I know where the party is. Yeah, these people. Anyway, I have I have such a love for the culture. What what the fuck was I just saying? Oh, one people have talked to which I made in a tree. That's almost that's almost discouraging. I'm like, yo dude, I'm footing in all this fucking like putting in all this extra work and like this fucking sound design and engineering and like trying to fucking trying to achieve subtronics but sober. Ha ha I'm like, uh, I'm also like ten years older than this kid. at least, excuse me, I don't know what the fuck is happening. Coffee early in the morning. Is my nose running or is it just like, oh, it's almost summer, so we're getting moist in the bitch, like we're just gonna get tepid for the next six months with no rain. Like it's gonna be like the moistures in the air. Enjoy that crawls. anyway I need to figure out what the fuck is schitz is or if that's what it's called. the longer I stay in New York. The easier it is for the old Jew and me to fucking arise. Ugh Anyway, what the fuck was I just saying? Oh, I love this about my statistics. My fans, although there are a few of them are speckled all over the world. I still don't know where Kazakhan is. but I think I have I have a couple listeners in Kazakhstan and they're in two different cities. I'm like that's pretty incredible to me. I was likeYo, dude, where the fuck is Kazakh stand? I don't know. I also found like, okay, like I don't I don't know where half these places are, but like I don't wanna go there although this place this one particular place I'm like oh dude, I don't know where the fuck you're at. I don't know where the fuck you're at and nobody knows where the fuck you're at cause I tried to look you up on a map and it was too distinctively like non places. I was like, is it this place or this place? And they're like it could be this place where that place? And I'm like cracked, but where is it? They're like nowhere, don't worry about it. I'm like damn! Okay, but I have a family there, so that's cool. I got fans all over the world, but they're like speckled. They're not, you know, by the hundreds or millions or billions. Are we gonna talk about that? Eventually, eventually, yes, we'll talk about my love of late night television. Yes, we have talked about that. But not right now. Because that could easily take up a whole episode, easily take up a whole episode. If you ever want to know the state of like if you ever want to know the state of mainstream, America, just check late night, because honestly, that's just like an anchor man dressed up in a little monkey suit as to whatever the fucking day people were talking about reiterated for the night people to understand. It's the same news. They are part of the news networks. I've just realized this cause I'm like oh no that's more like entertainment oh, it's the news. It's just the news kind of funny. It's just the same news that like whatever the NBC oh no, okay, like let's not NBC. Oh, yeah, NBC is doing enough right now. like go. No wonder why they didn't want causeby to buy the network, they would've fucked up their plans. He would have fucked up their plans. I'm like, I don't know what he was gonna do with MBC, but like he would have fucked up whatever they're doing now. That's why they prevented that. They were like, no. no, we have plans. They they're for the foreseeable future. Anyway, let's not NBC, because there's also CBS and uh that's it. At this point, I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty sure they're just like moving towards like the like a mass conglomeration of like, we're all the same. I'm like kind of like, and what's funny is they outfit themselves to pretend that they're like, I like this is so funny how left leaning it is when like all y' motherfuckers swing right easily. But I'm like, okay, I understand that this is for the masses, the masses are left swing. I'm like, okay, this is politics again, let's not do this. But everything is, it really is. Anyway, oh my go, what'll talk about my love for late night honor diff episode completely. Well, I mean, like we have a season devoted to it. We do, because I'm like, oh, they have to be like included in this in into the multiverse in legends, because like basically all of the mainstream pop culture like go like flows through late night TV. like that's where it goes. Like if you heard about it, you probably heard about it on late night TV because it is media like that's like anybody who's anybody goes through late high TV. I will not talk about all of I mean like there's so many different there's not really variations. I just said what it is. They're basically anchormen that are disguised not as anchorman. They are giving you the same news from the morning time news or the daytime talk shows, but watered down so that it seems like different news, but it's not as the same news all day. They work for the network, the network works for the dest network work for it themselves. What the fuck? I haven't figured this out yet, like on an intellectual level, I'm starting to, but it's one of those things where it's like mm kid, curiosity killed the cat. Curiosity killed and skinned many cats. Don't look here. I'm like, I got it, I get this. I got it, shut up. Shut up. Let me sit my fucking mug. guys when it comes down to it, I am assimilating well enough to be like, okay, I'm on Instagram twitch. Fucking I'm on Twitter, which is now X. I don't know. I think so. I have it. It's there like I don't use it or anything, but like I'm trying to see what the engagement for this upcoming season will be and if it works, then it works, but I have kind of thought about shooting this podcast in like a if I'm going to do anything, it's going to be anhilate night format where I have like a specific set of like this is what we're going to talk about. I do have a monkey suit picked out. I do have that because I like the format. It's easier it's easier for me to digest and then regurgitate information for my fans and followers this way. Like that's I don't know, like besides the fact that like I have been studying comedy for like the better part of two years now and that I grew up screenwriting and w like, ah, I don't know, like like I get it, though. I get why I'm so like hardwired to this. It's like yo dude, like via the television, we're so comfortable with these people because it's like oh like you're in my house like Lin Letterman, you're in my house like my whole entire existence, my whole childhood. So it's like that's like familiarity to a point that you can't you can't shake it. So like you can grow up and like, you know, the next the predecessors of the next and the next any man comes and like takes over the role of the last any man, but also like evolves the masses for the next coming generation and like the traits of the like it's it's a very interesting culture. I'm obsessed. like I love late night TV. I love TV, but I love late night TV specifically and we'll talk about that more in depth. I guess at some point because I do have to explain this entire weird what seems like an offshoot season well, it was kind of an offshoot season because I lost a season. I don't know what the fuck happened to it. Well now I'm going through my hard drives and I'm like, here it is. It's in here. It's all in here. I'm like, oh, so here we will answer my question. Soon, what did I write last year? I don't know. don't know at all. I really don't. I know a post in some of it. Some of it got like mirrored back in the universe, like, did you know you wrote this? I'm like, no, it's kind of prophetic in a way. just kind of happened. It took over my body anyway. What did I write last year? I don't know. Somebody read it. Somebody read it and then I have to do I have to do more like protections for my intellectual property because yo, I wrote half the Super Bowl commercials facts. I did I did. I was like yo,ude, I wrote this. Michael documents, what the fuck you do I Google documents? Like fuck you like fuck you unless that money is going into a pool to later pay me. When I like reach a certain level as an incentive, like we know we stole this from your fucking show, which, by the way, is just available online to anybody who fucking wants to copy and paste it and the descriptions you idiot. Yeah, I'm like yeah, well I mean like I can't really afford to join the writer's guild. They're like in that respect we will rip you off. only so that I can make sure that this commercial reaches your eyes and time for you to understand that like yo, you just put this out here for free. I'm like well love is free and music should be free. Like I'm technically just taking like a bag like a like a back step to like what the fuck is happening in the corporate world, which is sucking people like it's bleeding people who are already tired dry. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to be like, you know, like like, like, yes, I put like a PayPal about me link like if you want to donate to the festival project or later the complex collective cause I will not collect donations for my nonprofit until it's actually I've actually established the nonprofit as a 501 C3 and so like like the way that I'm doing my music right now is that like half of my profit goes to the festival project, which is like my my label, my independent label and media company. But the other half of my my like income, my earned income from music or, you know, however I earn or monetize, goes to the complex collective, which is a completely nonprofit organization, like meant to contribute back to the artists and like the artist community. not just the artist community, but just like to the overall health and wellness of like the like to to humanity as a whole, I think. Well, that's what the complex collective is kind of it's it's a health and wellness based nonprofit to the charity. So my the way that I what's it the way that I credit myself is that like the I use the complex collective, which is a nonprofit, as my music publisher, so that anything from the complex collective goes into the pool for the nonprofit, because I have to like, I can't consciously go throughout the rest of my life without giving back to my community and that way. like be because the way my life has gone so far, I don't like as much as I want to volunteer, I like well, I tried and then I like the the food bank that I volunteered for was like so and they had some organizational issues. They had some uh leadership issues. And so I was like, this is actually a toxic environment, which sucks. so I decided not to do that and uh and, you know, put all my uh energy of being like a charitable person into like my own, like I'll just my own nonprofits, non-for-profit is to give back to the community to artists and people in it in like transitionary, whatever. um That's the complex collective. So that's that's why you see that. That's why you see that badge on everything. That's the nonprofit sector. It is a subsidiary to the festival project, and I'm pretty much like devote my like I pretty much devote my my uh my gains, so to speak, into like both pools. Eventually, I'll have enough to then solidify the nonprofit with a um well, I have to you know, you have to pay. It's not it's not free for nonprofit. It's not. And so that's what that is. What else was I saying? Fans all over the world? Yes, we have fans all over the world. It's really cool. A lot of these places I've never heard of, but I do I find it a little bit, uh heartwarming and chanting, like I'm a little bit magical that like I'm hitting people in like some of the major dance cities, like Sal Paulo, Brazil, and uh like like places that are Amsterdam, London, uh I have more. I have more people in the UK than I thought, but it's okay because I I like them. I like them. Well, I like people. I like people that are people. Well, people be people on it so not all the time. Like sometimes I'm like, oh, this is like this is characteristic of your species. Like this is why this is this way. Like this is this is a whole human thing. It's not attractive at all. But I think we' close to an hour, I'd had to be oh, six minutes what do I got for six minutesronics. I'm I can't okay, I love subronics like as like Won as a fan because I went to a few of his performances. I'm not gonna lie. Every time his whole audience has BO. everybody. I'm like, oh, nobody in here has D right. But I think I got my fucking I don't know, maybe it was a sign. I was I was mixing the other day like nonstop and I'd been running around and I have a special jacket that I wear when I DJ that's like a really it's like a nice, I don't know what material it is, but it's really nice, like a uh a sports jacket, like a bomber. No, it's not a bomber style. It's like a I can't I can't remember this. It's like a sports jacket, but it's this material that's really nice. it's just always been my DJ jacket. It's like my lucky DJ jacket. and uh I usually wash it like on a delicate cycle and don't put it in the dryer to keep it preserved because it's really, really nice and I had been running around for a couple days and then mixed for like a solid, I don't know, I was in there like all together, I was in there, I think like nine or ten hours and I spent most of those the most of that time, like actively mixing because my music was not it was not s synched, so I had to hand pitch everything on four decks, which was overwhelming, which, by the way, I also did not know, which is why, like you like I did post at least one of the videos. but it's I'm embarrassed. I'm wearing yellow. yellow's not a good color. I'm looking heavy as fuck, like, oh, man, they had that video in the sidebar next to this girl, that's like a size double zero model. like fucking DJ and the rainforest with like grown footage and like HD, like, and then all her videos were like, she was she was like DJing and the one was like in the rainforest. one was like on a beach. Like she just had like she was all these destinations that had the drone footage, like money, but also like beauty just like pure beauty. Like she didn't have to do good. Like her music sounded good, but like she looked awkward as fuck not being able to dance to her own music. But still, like the like what why would you be paying attention to that when A she's beautiful, that's a distraction, be drone footage of like whatever the fucked rainforest or like tropical beach, like she was everywhere. I was like fuck this bitch. And algorithm's like Toby salty. I was like, I'm a little salty because it showed my thumbnail next to her thumb nail and I was like, no, no, no no. no like, oh so bad. So now I know. I know better than to look fat. Don't be ugly in New York. I was actually in full hair and makeup with my nails done with my Cardi B style nails. Yes, I was, but the yellow shirt on camera and it wasn't the best camera. It was like so I like I I used to have a camera like that when I first got into filmmaking when I was like eight. It was like the same camera. I'm like yo, this is bad. It's really bad. But, you know, all that's investments, investments. I don't think it's gonna be even I don't think it's gonna be any better, which, by the way, some people are delusional, bro. I just got Snapchat. I haven't had Snapchat since Allie died so I've been like I've been away from like that whole world and like seeing first of all, people actually pay money to dress their fucking, like, what are those things called? their little animated. Like, okay, you're paying money to put clothes on a on a 2D creature, you are dumb. That's why they do that, though. I'm like, oh, I need this forage shirt for my fucking Snapchat animated thing. I'm like, that's stupid. I mean, like if you got it. But still, even if you got it, it seems like I could have a million dollars and I still wouldn't spend a dollar to dress a fucking animime character. That's stupid. I like that's stupid. However, these are the same people that are posting actual like I could never post a selfie without filter on, cause I'm looking at myself in the camera with no make up and no hair and like just ugly. And I'm looking at myself in the camera and then one of these filters comes on and I'm like yo, I am beautiful. One of these filters comes out and just automatically made me pretty. And I was like, oh, like, but some people post that selfie and then they're under the or they put that as the background on their phone and they're under the illusion that that's what they look like like bitch, you don't look like that. You don't look like that you should not like that's for fun. You should not send those pictures. You should not you I don't think you should be able to save those pictures. Like, no, like, honestly, and if you post them, wouldn't it be funny if the algorithm just took off all the fucking corrections? Wouldn't it be funny if like, oh, like we see this filter, we'll just take off the filter when you post it. So like it posts with all without the Photoshop or without the filter, that would be hilarious. That'd be a funny hack. But coders who doing more like ethical things are nonethical things. I don't know what hackers do. I got accused of being one once, because I had a bunch of flash drives and hard drives. I realized that this is just like this is just what happens when you become a music producer. I'm like, I don't have space for this. I need more like I need more flash drives. I need more hard drives. I need more SD cards. Like I need space for my stuff. Somebody was like people think you're a hacker. I was like, you're an idiot. But that's hilarious. And that was one of the funniest things I've ever been accused of being, because it's like, bro, if I was a hacker, do you think I'd be staying in this fucking hostel, dummy? Fucking dumb. Why would I be hacking from this hostel? Well, I do really actually, you know what? I think that yes. But also we have more stories to tell eventually, what was I gonna say about subtrronics? I just love this music, very good, very, very good, very good. That's it. I don't have anything else to say. I thought I was gonna take up at least half an episode, because I was actively listening to it. I've been actively listening to it like sober in the middle of the day, but it is good running music sometimes. Sometimes I'm just like, oh dude, like I have to stop running and head bang. like this is inappropriate, this is inappropriate. I don't I don't know, I don't highly recommend a lot of bass music, like in the city setting, because something happens mechanically in your brain, something at least my brain, where it's like, oh, like that shouldn't synchronize this way. That shouldn't do that. Don't do that. why? What frequency? Idiots. idiots. lots the same guy, by the way. This is the same guy. He doesn't like, what's fucked up is he have a whole vehicle, he doesn't leave the neighborhood. Like he's a menace, like he does not leave the neighborhood. He doesn't. like he drives in circles all day. And like that's his that's he has like no other power. I get it. Like I' I'm understanding like I'm studying the psychology of people with small brains like this. is that like he has no power over like the rest of his life, so like that's his that's his like freedom. That's his power as being able to do that for like a second at a time, like he that's it, then he rounds the corner and does it again, then he rounds like the fucked up thing to me is it's like bro, you're not going to go anywhere with that. Like you have a whole vehicle, a whole vehicle, like anything I have to do I have to go on foot. That's I'm not gonna lie to disadvantage. I mean, like it's not too much of a disadvantage in New York, but anywhere else it's like, you don't have a car. I'm like, yeah. I don't. Like New York is probably the only place in the US that you absolutely really don't need one. You really don't. And honestly, when I see people with cars here, I'm like yo dude, I hope you paid that all the way off because like, honestly like if you're in debt for that, like you you lost like, you lost, like you're not going anywhere and it's like depreciating as you drive it, like this just like, I don't know. I saw well, I was on the bus and we hit a car. The bus kept going. Bus kept going and totally did. It did not make it didn't even flinch like the bus was like oops, you were over the line. I was like damn damn. So eventually eventually that person is gonna come out and be like, oh. ho No, anyway, we do have to talk about some of this entered the multiverse. We are over an hour, so thank you for listening. Yay, what I want on the peloton one arm on the pelotone. Again, I'm not getting paid, but I think going against the grain of like corporate greed right now is the best thing. So all of the things that I can possibly like put online for free. I'm putting online for free. um I'm also trying to get I'm trying to start the process of giving away like copies of my album for free and you know, as springtime and festival season gears up, public spaces. Oh, we didn't talk about the fluffer. First of all, I was worried that it wasn't gonna come out. Excuse me, gosh, what is happening right now? Flip? It snot. stuck somewhere trapped in my space. I'm sorry about that. If you can hear that on this recording, I apologize for that. I apologize, but whatever. Ooh, maybe, well, yeah, I do get like weird. I get weird when I don't work out enough, so I did that. I also went to the gym. I ran yesterday, and then I got on the peloton for an hour and I slept hard between like shaking myself awake to be like, my Amazon

They say new York drinking water is some of the cleanest— don't buy it! I saw a billboard that said 8 glasses of tap water will prevent a heart attack. That's because it already has so much asprin in it! Yooo! Don't drink that! “Some of the cleanest drinking water in the country” Then what the fuck is in the tap water in the rest of the country?! New York tap water ain't right! It's not. Even my brita filter is like “Well, I'll do my best” But it doesn't. I drink tap water out the brita filter and I'm still like “Well geez, I'm sleepy” Fuck that. I moved to New York and had to double triple my budget for water. “New York tap water is “potable” What doe ther even mean. Notice it's not the word “safe” or “healthy” or “clean” It's “potable” Which means— It passes for people we don't really consider people anyway. If you can't afford a real clean water then you deserve whatever's in this mess here— “It's potable” Don't trust that. This is coming from the same government that tried to tell us ketchup was a vegetable. KETCHUP IS A VEGETABLE = NEW YORK DRINKING WATER IS SAFE TO DRINK. THIS IS THE SAME LIE. TRANSACRIPT: (Uncorrected, cause this is a lot of words.) We'll see how bad it gets. Good morning Krusty crew! you guys are Kusty crew now. I'm sure at least a few of you listeners are Krusty, like my morning voice. Hello. This episode is brought to you by Amazon. I'm just kidding. They're not paying me. However, I always have like a particular difficulty, like retrieving my Amazon fresh order, and I'm pretty sure so that it's it's so that I can come back on here and be like,Yo, okay, like what the fuck is up with Amazon? And allthough I don't think they need advertising. I haven't seen an actual television and like years, but I've never seen a commercial for Amazon. I've never seen a commercial like they don't need it. They fucking totally cornered the market on every fucking thing you need. Everything. like to the point that some people are like specifically like anti-amazon, which I don't know, I think I want to pride myself on being anti-amon for a while, but really Amazon was like anti-me. They're like your identity. You're sketchy. Now, who are you? I like I couldn't I couldn't Amazon for the longest time and it caused me the greatest difficulty in my life. I was literally paying like more for everything that I needed period. There was no like there was no finagling. I just love finagling. I don't know why. There't there was no getting around it. Like I couldn't just like oh, like here's a here's a fucking alternative to Abbott, there's no alternatives. Like I found companies in the process of doing that that I do like, but like I still have to revert back to Amazon because like most of those companies are like really good, like sustainable companies and like organic companies and like even small businesses, but at the same time, because they are those things, they cost me more and so it's like I can't afford like not to do this anyway. what's going on? We get an episode today. Well, we get we get an episode. We according to this Amazon hall, by the way took two days, like I thought that I was making an order because I was well, here here it is. It's like this was my equivalent for like drunk ordering anything. I don't drink. But if there, you know, if there's like a close, you know, like, I don't know. I don't think I could actually manage to my indigenous heritage kind of grants me like a certain functionality when drinking, although there's like a level. There's like a limit. Like I go from completely functional and like cooperative to no, like very quickly. So I don't think that I could be the type of like blacked out drunk person to order on Amazon. But if I were, this is this is the order I would have made. I guess you could I guess you could kind of compare the fact that like I went out after, what, two days of not working out? I had to go run an errand and that was the worst. That was the worst. I went out in New York ugly for the first time and I went out in New York ugly for the first time in a long time because I I was like, okay, I learned my lesson. like don't be ugly in New York. So I went out ugly because I didn't care. I was like, okay, well, I have to do this fucking errand and everything was bad. Everything went wrong. Everything was bad because well, I mean like I blamed myself I wasn't working out. I think I ran like a considerable amount that day and did like maybe 15 minutes on the pelone, but it wasn't enough. because I I went out and like lights were flickering and there was I was like, what? fucking side dimension is this is not where I live? This is not the place, this is not the place. and so I went out and I had a horrible time, and when I came back, I was like, fuck it, I'm hungry. and I'm pretty sure I just did what's fucked up is damn, I meant to Google. I meant to Google whatever the fuck the thing is that you do before Passover. I'm pretty sure it's called Schchitz. Like I'm not 100% sure because I keep telling myself like I'm gonna Google that. Passover is literally like tomorrow. But also I just got rice. And I left lintils off of my I think lintils is a no, no. I think it's disputed. Like people are like lintels and oats and some people are like yes, and some people are like no. And I'm like,Yo, dude, well, I'm vegan. And a lot of Jews are not, so I mean, like can't we just like substitute, but like the whole point of schitz or whatever you call it, I need to look it up. I'm pretty sure it's Fish. Sch fits like 90% sure, but that's I mean like 90 still 90's and A. It's a low A, but it's an A. And so I think it's something close. I think it starts with the S and ends with a Z like most Jewish and or Yiddish slang terms. or words. I don't know, I love Jews. I'm obsessed with them. I've been thinking about going to like actual services on Saturdays. However, I I like I find it hard to actually move myself on Saturdays in New York. I'm like there's too much. It's too much. It's too much. I don't wanna be out. fuck this. I don't wanna go out even if it's like too a Jew church, like it might be worth it. Especially if it was like like you know, nothing like Mormon church, not in the middle of the day for five hours. Not in the middle of the day for five hours, it might be. I mean, like I don't I don't know. I don't know anything about the actual, like I don't know anything about that shit. I just have it somewhere in my body. I'm like Jew things. hello Jews. anyway. it's no secret. I love Jews. I love Mormons. I actually like all the people. especially people who practice religiously like religiously. I'm like, oho, dude, like, well, I mean like they're extremists, but they're extremists atheists. so I mean like both of like just to be an extremist in any way is wrong. I worked very, very minimally for in for an extremist vegan last year, and I'm still traumatized by it. I still like he grabbed my backpack to keep me from fucking catching the bus and which, by the way, was the day that I lost my wallet. I specifically blame that. like I blame him for that. like I dropped my wallet because he was like, oh, we have to do this or we have to do a group hug. And he like, I was like, oh, nope, my bus is coming and he grabbed the in and he grabbed the back of my backpack and like for some reason now he grabbed the back of my backpack and I was like, what the fuck you doing? He was like, we have to do a group hug. And then I was like, yo, and then I ended up running for the bus and like g getting paid and not having my wallet with me by the time I got back to my apartment, cause I was like shaking him. I was like, the fuck are you pulling on me? Now every time I get every time I get caught on something, I cuss that motherfucker out. like, I don't know. I don't know if it has any direct, like effect on him, cause like every time, every time I get caught on something, and I feel like the motion of a pull, I I just start cussing him out in my brain. I'm like,uck this dude. I hate you. But anyway, I hated him for a lot of reasons. I didn't quit that job cause he paid in cash at the end of each day. It was like he was like one of those horrible people that's like bro, I don't like and everybody knew it and everybody like tipted and walked on eggshells around this motherfucker. But like he paid in cash. He paid in cash tax free at the end of each day, so it was like, yo, if you could get through the end of each day without quitting, you get your whole paycheck today, which and he was paying like a pretty living wage like over minimum wage for New York. So I was like, okay, all right. But I think that I think that was the game. It was like I was supposed to quit because he was like he was terrible. and it was like, why haven't you quit yet? I'm like, he pays in cash. At the end of the day, like all I have to do is suffer through this fruit. however long it takes to get cash at the end of the day. Then I drop my wallet and that was a terrible thing because he paid in cash at the end of the day and I dropped my wallet and nobody's turning in a fucking wallet with a full paycheck of cash in it. So I never got that wallet back and then I well, we could call it like a draw not too long after because he he was like, why haven't you quit yet? I'm going to make you quit. I'm like, you will not make me quit. I will get paid cash at the end of this day. Cash. Anyway, anyway, it's tax free cash, daily, I'll be back. Anyw, what's going on? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Was that saying something about Amazon? Oh, extremists. I mean, like I don't I don't think that has anything to do with anything, but being extreme oh, he is extremist vegan. Like he would do mean things to you to try to make you be like oh, I give up meat completely and like veganism is one of those things where it's like it's like alcoholism. Like you have to be ready to change. You get or like ear anything, honestly. like any kind of whatever, like you can't make a person do anything until they're ready. Like you can try, but like most of the time the behavior is just gonna revert back to itself like overeating not working out not working out, like the sugar, like dietary changes, like pretty much any like major behavioral changes have to be initiated by that person for like a personal reason. Like you and even if you are going to convince them to change in some way, you have to like you have to suit them. You have to make it kind of seem like it's their idea. Like you can't just force your ideas onto somebody and be like, oh, you're you know what, you're right. Like I would change because you were this fucking mean to me. I'm like, that doesn't make actually, you know what, after a year of going out at New York, I was like, fine. And then I remembered why because I was like, it's not that bad, whatever, sweatuit and I had fucking I've been getting a lot of work done, so I had my nails like Cardi B long for a while, but then I was like, this is inefficient. if for the things that I have to do, like the amount of things that I have to do with my hands, I can get all this done quicker and then do my nails again later as's not gonna be like that big of a deal, because it, you know, like it you do just figure out a different way to do things with your hands. It's like almost like the nails aren't there, except for typing. And I type very fast and I work very fast, so I'm like, okay, like, these nails gotta go. And so they went. And so I've just been down back to bare bones and like natural hair and no makeup and like yo, yesterday, yes, because I did this twice because I was like once you do it once, I was like I was already like in the bottom of like people scowling at me and shit. So I was like, okay, well, you know, scowls, whatever, I can do this again because I have like one more errand and this dude, this kid this kid that works at the Walgreens was like, oh, I thought you were a terrorist. Like, he didn't say that, but he did. He was like he was like, I thought you were gonna lay down and like, I thought it was over. I thought you were gonna like pull out a can of C4 and blow us all up. And I was like, what? And I forgot that I was like usually like when I go out pretty people treat me nice cause duh. felt like when I go out like regular, people are like oh, like oh, like I'm like, oh, is it that bad? That's what I told the kid, cause I forgot like, I'm just so used to like, I'm still the same consciousness. I'm still the same personality on the inside like it don't matter like, you know, like I just ran here. I I'm like high on endorphins or whatever. likeT's like he was like, oh, like, oh, and I was like, oh, God, is it that bad? I have like a cone head because I'm wearing a bun, but I'm also wearing a hat and a hood, cause it's been nicely cold. It's been great and I I'm worried about the environment cause it's not raining. It's spring, like we're about the hop straight from like the dead of winter to summer and it like and I know it's almost summer because it was like 9 pm last night and the sun had just gone down. I was like, oh, that's fucked up. It's spring again. I was like no, as bad news. It's like that's bad news. It hasn't rained once. Like how are the fucking people? Like, what is the birth doing? Because I mean, like the P people are bad. Well, I mean, like no, not necessarily. I just hadn't like, honestly, the people are always the same. It's like perception, so like when I do my hour on the pelotone and my mild minimum run or whatever, and then I go out into the world, I'm like literally don't like all that shit like bounces off of me. Like the people are still shitty. I'm sure of it. but like I'm just just don't care. It's like a shield live like indoor friends feeling at my peak. That's what I feel. But lately I haven't been feeling great so I haven't been working out, so I haven't I haven't been feeling great because I haven't been working out and it is it has the possibility to be what's it called a vicious cycle, but it did it. Like I was I realized it right away that I was like, oh, this is this is wrong. This is wrong, I don't live here. I don't live here, and I had a very good hour on the pillot last night because two two days ago, I was like, oh, this is this is what happened. I went out and I came back and I was feeling like negative. I was like, no, that was a bad experience. I' hungry now because, you know, sometimes anxiety causes my stomach to churn in a way that's like just fill it with something. And I'm like, okay, usually I understand like anxiety, eating and I can avoid it. Like I understand that like, okay, this is stress or whatever. and I can like, you know, just fill my stomach with water as I'm not hungry. I'm like nervous. I'm not hungry I have anxiety. Like most of the time people eat because they're bored, not because they're hungry. And so I'm like, you know, I'm I don't I haven't I don't mind at all. And so I kind of refuse to allow myself to get bored, but like I do notice like like I eat more when I put like, okay, this this Amazon hall says to me that I'm about to make some ball music because it is the equivalent of something that's like I would have done in a state of like a different state of mind or consciousness as if I were drinking. This this like, okay, like our only emptied it pre-pisode because I was sure that I was like, oh, I know I have ice cream in here. I finally found the fucking bin and Jerry's that I wanted. I was so sick of going to the store and looking through fucking like container after container of bin and Jerry's and not finding the one that I rigid like the first one that I picked up, the first time that I decided like, I'm going to give n non-air Ben and Jerry's a try. I've tried all the other expensive fucking ice creams vegans, and I'm for the most like oh, this one's kind of got like ice chips in it's like freezer burnt tasting this one melts funny and turns into like a gelatinous goo. So I'm like okay Ben and Jerry's like knows what the fuck they're doing and they do what's fucked up about Ben and Jerry's is they're non-airy tastes and is texturized, like they regular ice cream. So it's like the closest thing to regular ice cream. I don't get paid by the way, by any of these people. However, I am like now getting into like the the likeet verse of doing things because I have to because I'm like I make too much music for people not to know about it. Like whether it's gonna be like mediocre bass music or eventually like, I don't know, the most legendary bass music of all time. I now have goals. Well, I mean, like I kind of entered into this DJ thing with like the one thing. I was like, okay, like, if I can't be this, like, what is the point of being like anything else if I can't be this good at doing that, like why would I even like and then I realized I'm like, oh, I'm doing like a house oriented sets, but like, yo, I came here for dubstep. Like, what? oh, are we going to talk about some? We have to talk about subtrronics because I can't I'm like, yo, I can't like, what? Like, I understand as a like, I'm I'm a double fan now because I okay, let's finish all these things. Don't go out in New York ugly. Just don't be ugly in New York. Just don't do it. Just try. just try. just try and New York will give you back an energy what you fucking like it's you you get out of it what you put in. Just try, try. I see people wearing less croccks now. This is good, like, but my equivalent of not wearing crocs is like yo like hair and makeup every day, like non-negotiable. Don't be ugly. I'm like, okay, all right, whatever. I get an out, that kid was like, oh, are you a terrorist? I was like, what the fuck, kid? Like, you were you were nice to me the other day. I'm the same person. I'm the same person making the same transaction, what the fuck? Anyway, so I got back from my errands feeling just totally destroyed. and I made this Amazon hall, but I thought that I was gonna eat in a few hours, whatever I was ordering instead of two days from when I was ordering, they were like, oh no, this is the next available delivery window. I was like that is a deficit to like my like, what if I don't want it two days from now? This is technically an impulse decision based on the fact that I'm reacting badly to whatever the fuck just happened outside. Actually, you know what, though. I just unpacked this fucking Amazon hall, which, by the way, I get the most expensive and non-exciting Amazon haul of all time. The only is like of all time, every time I order Amazon, I'm disappointed unless dish soap or like, I don't know, cleaning supplies. I get like a certain I'm like, yes, it's here. Lysyle has a new fucking scent that I'm just I adore it. I'm like, yo, yo, this doesn't smell like anything I've smelled before for like cleaning. It's like the fabulosa ofysol, which why haven't I just been using fabuloso? Fabuloso used to be mad cheap. Now everybody like caught on to the fact that fabuloso is one of the best multiurpose cleaners ever like of all time. No, they're not paying me either, but I don't really care. Like my whole new thing is like, my whole new thing is like everybody's like subscribe this and fucking $15 a month and like y, dude, you're sucking everybody's income out of them, like everybody who's living under a certain level of fucking like everybody who can't just buy things flat out has to buy them on a subscription and if you count up all the subscriptions like that's like the whole like the common American worker right now, like the common one, like not the, oh, I have an okay job or like, you know, you should just get an education or like, whatever you're elitist mentality makes you think that like your life and your privilege is not like your life and your privilege is your merit. That's I'm not talking about you because you skated through life on your genetics, basically, and you think that you earned what you have, but you didn't. Your grandparents and their parents did and blah, blah, blah, and your lucky that way. But the rest of us are out here like $15 a month for this $20 a month for that. and it adds up to like your entire income is like, okay, after your living expenses like you're still gonna be in like a pretty unshakable amount of debt. because you're like, okay, well, I mean, like I can't afford to do it flat out. Like if I did all these subscriptions at once, flat out, and each of them is like 200 hundred a year, if I did them all flat out, I would be like, I don't know, like at least 5K like a year just like at once. I don't have that. Most people don't have that. and so it's like, okay, well, you can break it down and this is how the businesses are fucking people. They're like oh well, I mean like you can pay for it monthly but it's actually more monthly. Like you save money if you do it yearly, but it's like oh, but if I need everything pretty much all at wants if I need everything pretty much all at once and I can't afford to do everything all at once by the year, I'm actually going to pay more doing it by the month, but I can only afford to do it by the month. So this is the thing that's like fucking with me. I'm like, oh, you guys are fucking with people. What's my point? Oh, I don't know, oh, everybody's being fucking greedy as fuck, which is is just leaving a bad taste in my mouth for humanity at all. I'm like, you greedy motherfuckers. Like, I might live this life in an in an ideal way for now, but it is a temporary space of like discomfort in order for me to observe and understand, like, how better my energy can be suited in the next don't I don't. I mean, like my next incarnation needs to be like a body list, like orb of air and light. Like that's I don't want another like human body, because first of all the planet is like unless you guys find like another habitable planet. and like, I'm not in the I'm not in the fucking level yet where they're gonna be like, oh, like you're fucking worth saving, like we'll take you to our like, we'll take you to our Elysium in space, where only the elite people and the people that we deem worthy will be here and we'll leave like pretty much Hollywood's been telling us forever. They're like, yo, we're gonna leave all the poor ugly, colored people on this planet. and like, when this planet is like destroyed by it by pretty much our doing. And we're gonna like float on some kind of system and space because we have no idea for like a second, like a close enough habitable planet for us to then, like just move on to, like, I don't care what you say, like repopulating Mars is dumb. It is dumb. It is dumb. It's not a fucking it's not a happy place. Like because at one point, because at one point it was a habitable planet. And guess what? we're we're pretty destructive species. It's just historically and like beyond historically, because typically once we destroy ourselves, like as a species, all of our knowledge all of our knowledge and records are destroyed with us. So we have this like, we have this sense of knowing within our like within our mega that's like, oh, if something happened here. But what? And some people have actually access to that within their minds and within their consciousness. It's like, oh yeah, it's like, like, yeah, a lot ofass music producers are like, what, you think I'm from here? I don't give a fuck about this. I don't give a fuck about this. I'm like, I get it. Like this is just for now. This is just for now. I might be included in this, but also I'm like, yo, dude, like I'm pretty environmental when it comes down to like this planet is, you know, anyway. was I just saying, don't be ugly in New York. Oh, okay, so I made this Amazon fucking hall, like a drunk fucking person. Although, like a drunk person, I was kind of looking out for my future self because there's a lot of stable, like there's a lot of pantry staples in here that's like, bro, you won' run out of food. like you might have rice blowat, but you won't run out of food because sometimes I do sometimes I spring so much for the organic and for the like for the like vitamin packs, like superfoods they call it superfoods, but those are just regular foods. Like if you strip down all the foods that are not foods, like all the foods that are actually just like chemical and overprocessed, like if you took all those things off the planet, because they shouldn't exist really anyway. Like you would be left with what they call superfoods or what they market as superfoods that are actually just foods. like, no, these are the foods that you were technically like designed to eat. These are the foods that will fuel your energy for whatever the fuck you have to take on. This is the food that you're like you're made to eat. But they call it superfoods and market it as such and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just got bored. Anyway, what the fuck was that saying? Oh, I took I had like had a hand and creating my next masterpiece. Because I got things that I typically don't. I'm I don't fuck with things like that, like snack foods. But as I said before, like we're not produced that snack, I really do, and I haven't been snacking because I'm like, oh dude, like it's not worth it. I'm I'm New York vein like also have these DJs are just like so skinny, and I'm just like, oh, this body shaving, you can't say that or. I'm like, no, like I aspire to be that. so that people actually pay attention not for what I'm doing, but how I look. So trust me, I'm assimilating. I really am. Oh, which, by the way, I have a discord now. I don't know what the fuck it's for. I have no idea I also have a twitch. I have a twitch. There's nothing on it. I have I have pretty much everything. I even got a Snapchat. I haven't had a sn Snapchat since Ollie died because Ollie was my only sn Snapchat friend as it I have a sn Snapchat. This is all for music though. It's not like when I think about it, I'm like oh, this is the dumbest fucking shit ever and I'm do it when I'm fucking I'm actually figuring out like I'm using like I have TikTok eww and well what's great about it is I am using it like as a business tool so I'm not stuck on the shit like I'm not I am scrolling now, but not I'm like what's weird is like my energy is like looking for something. I'm like oh like okay, like this DJ posted something or like this might want a free copy of my fucking of my music to play or whatever. So I should hit them up. Like as I'm using it as a business platform more than like a social platform because I'm just not just not a social person. It doesn't make sense to be, but now I'm understanding like with the feedback that I'm getting that like, oh, this is how you do it. Like I'm not gonna get a job in this industry unless I assimilate to like what I'm hoping doesn't happen is that I assimilate too much because now all of a sudden I'm like I should get a vape I should get a vape like all the kind that I like are illegal in New York. And I'm actually really proud of the fact that I quit vaping when I got here like when I got here because I was thinking that I was traveling outside of the country and like I didn't want to be like I don't know, traveling outside of the US makes me feel like I'm an ambassador for my country so I don't want to represent my country badly. However, I feel like the actual chosen representatives of the country are not doing like the greatest job. so it doesn't matter what I do like because they are technically the ambassadors to this country like they like I'm pretty much aware like a stamp on my head that has their fucking face and or name on it when I go outside the country anyway I don't know I I usually try to assimilate in that way when I travel outside of the country like learn to speak like you're not American because most countries have an opinion about that. They're like oh you're an American deer, they're you're stupid. I'm like I'm not arguing. How many miles is a kilometer? Can you translate this before we hold up? Let me get Google translate? I'm I'm American, man. I'm American to the point where I have the fucking math doesn't make sense. Like it doesn't make sense. Apple pie, I yeah, apple pie. However, though, I realized because of this, and my indigenous heritage, I have kind of like a like a weird, I don't know, I can't I amm not sure. Like I think because of the way that I've decided to craft my lifestyle, I have like kind of an upperhand advantage at like understanding culture, like understanding culture just culturally, like what has happened from like the inside of the like the like the corporate, like conglomerate capitalists, like like set epicenter. Well, I don't know. I've been reading enough about China to be like wow, China. Also, I't I'm loving this. I'm getting I'm getting feedback on my fucking like my what's it called? My stats or whatever. And I don't have a lot of fans and followers, which is sad, which by the way, if you're listening to this, like check check out my other big gold check out the YouTube. It's at the festival project by the way YouTube YouTubeube.com slash at because it's weird that they have like for their backslashes, but it's at the festival project I'm the festival project. There's a whole bunch of people trying to really like I've been telling people that my project is the festival project for a while and now all these people are coming out of nowhere like I'm the festival project. I'm like, you are not. Like, you are not the festival project. Stop lying on yourself. I'm the festival project. I've always been the festival project, at the festival project, that's me, not anybody else. That's you, technically, like the letter you, with no check mark because I'm not paying for that shit. Would I become notable enough to have a Wikipedia page, they'll put the fucking check mark on it for me. I ain't paying for it. I'm paying for it the fuck that like that's like you could buy a grabby award now. I'm sure that you can. I' 100% sure that you could do that. Which is sad and it's likeo, dude, I actually like I what's it? I I don't know. I think I come from a weird world where it's like I hold the academy to like such high regard that it's like I'm like the fact that I'm like pretty certain that you could buy a Grammy makes me sad because it's like like I don't know this whole oh, that's what I was saying. I'm giving away all my shit for free because everybody's greedy motherfuckers. Like I'm giving away my music for free like the album that I dropped yesterday all the rage is 100% free. All you have to do is go on my website and download it. That's it like you don't even have to spend money on a subscription for a streaming service like you could just go get that at my website www.mU.uru. That's the website you can just download whatever the fuck I haven't put all my music up there because honestly I'm I'm realizing how much music I have and like how long I've been making music and I'm like, oh you're like oh okay, first of all, I'm like it's gonna be it's hard it's hard enough for me to just format it and put it on a flash drive just to like have all my music together because I've made it over time and so the expand it it's just a lot like it's just a lot all my music's not in one place, all my mixtapes are not in one place. I just got to sound cloudy yesterday. I only got a SoundCloud to enter a fucking beat making contests the first time I've ever done anything like that like I've entered DJ contests so I can try to get a job, but I've never done a beat making contest, so I've never had to actually like condense my creative space into like a one minute thing. And so, I don't know, I really enjoyed doing that, but it's not something that I was looking at the other contest, they were like, it's for a clout. I'm like, that's stupid. I don't want to waste time on clout. Cloths not gonna pay my bills, anyhho. Clout. Oh, what was I saying? Oh, I was supposed to talk about subtrronics, my Galypes, refrigerator. These Ecuadorian bananas. Okay, I have a like I eat a lot of bananas because bananas and for whatever reason, if found bananas like synonymous with New York City, I always have even before before I lived here, I think it's just because it was like the cheapest thing that I could find is like bananas like bananas. That's what I gonna eat bananas. So I always just kind of like for some reason it was like, oh, from in New York, I need bananas. Now I live in New York and I'm like I see why. But now I'm like my flavor palate is changing to be more specific and so I'm like a banana connoisseur, but I finally like I landed on a I landed on bananas. I landed on bananas that I just love so much. First of all, they're huge, they're huge. I also like these really tiny bananas that are like sweet and little and like they have a very specific taste, and I like the red ones, and yo, that lady when I lived in Mexico, she was so elusive, like she came she was the only lady in the whole place with red bananas and like these red, these really tiny red bananas have like the like they're the best bananas I've ever tried. But the second bananas, the second best bananas I've ever tried are Ecuadorian bananas. and I'm like, yo, dude, first of all, they are huge. Like they're big thick, they're like big, they're big and they're d they're big, big, perfectly sized bananas. good girth. good, nice, just good bananas. They're huge. and uh I don't know, like I started going to the store and then I stopped going to it because rac is oops, I'm not supposed to say that. I I just realize something. I realize something about the world like that you can't even you can't even insinuate like a conversation about race. Like people people will get like people start to get upset, like one way or another. Like I said, extremism on both sides exists. I don't like I can't I'm I'm post racial. Like I can't pick a side anyway like you're gonna put me on one side or another based on your perception of who I am or what I do but like I'm completely like I'm like literally the most neutral thing that ever like literally the most neutral thing that ever. And so what was I just saying, oh, I don't know, I went into a hole. Acuadorian bananas. We'll just we'll just re her back to Acuadorian bananas. Yes, extremism, no. Ecuadorian bananas, yes. They are the best. They are the best, and not only is the size perfect, but the flavor of the banana is just a little bit different from like Guatemalan bananas or Mexican bananas, like no, Ecuadorian bananas. And so now I've gotten into the habit of like, I found another store that has Ecuadorian bananas, thank goodness, because like when I stopped going to the other store, I was like god damn it, they have the Ecuadorian bananas. like that was the one thing from there that I liked and the Uber pancakes. But we'll it's okay. That controversial episode, which I'm like, what's it called? referencing may or may not er. I need to it's like a twohour episode that I did in an emotional kind of turmoil. I need to check that episode to see if I want to air it. It might it might not. Like it could just be like deleted, because I felt like it was forced. I was like why are you try why are you trying to make me act out of my fucking character? Fuck you. Like I don't like when people try to force things. So that sometimes happens where people will come out of the woodwork and be like, talk about this experience. And I'm like, "Yo, dude, you just cornered me into making me feel like unsafe and not great. I don't necessarily and then it was like the energy was like, okay, I have to talk about this, but I didn't like the way that it made me feel. So the fact that it felt forced was like eh but I definitely earned that next tattoo. I'm I'm behind on tattoos I have two tattoos that I have to get it. I definitely earn that one. I earn that one with the help of Erica body, but I'll explain that in some in the multiverse and legends things later. I don't understand how things work sometimes in the universe, but that was one of those things I was like this is this is not even a synchronicity. This is like a this is an experience. We'll see if that episode's worth posting, but either way, I in the tattoo, I earn the tattoo beforehand, that was just the solidification, I think. Anyhho. what the fuck is I say? Ah, Ecuore bananas, yes, yes. Because it makes me think like like, if their bananas are like this, what are their women like? Like, I could give no fucks about the men. I'm not a lesbian, but like, I'm thinking in the way of like a I'm thinking in the masculine way that's like, you know, if they're bananas tastes like this, like, what are their women like Ecuadorian bananas? I think about that, because I'm like yod dude, like my taste profile is based on my diet. So, if these bananas come from Euador, like, what else comes from Ecuador that's fucking perfect. probably women. I don't believe in perfect men. I mean, like perfect looking, sure, perfect acting, sure, a combination of these things to together, rare, but like a per perfect women exist all over the place. Like perfect men. I don't think is a thing. I don't think it is. And that's not me being sexist or like because honestly, if you listen to the way that I speak, like being like a I don't have a preference for gender, just don't be a fucking sh shit hole of a human being. Like I don't care what you are, how you are, like just be cool, you know, like B peaceful and mind your manners and shut the fuck up. I mean like I'm not trying to silence people, but like be mindful of your environment. You know what I'm saying? Be mindful of people around you because there are so many there so many. And you are the focus I to try to say Acuadorian bananas, yes, as good. Are we ready to talk about subronics? Did I talk about all my websites and stuff? We have a discord. It's I think you can find me on discord at blue the guru and it's the same on twitch. I haven't posted anything to twitch yet. I did. I did tape a couple of my performances, but they were horrible. They were horrible and honestly they were just so that I could enter a contest so I could try to get a job. Like that was it. I did that. I was like, well, I have to do something because you you miss 100% percent of the chances you don't take. I believe truly in that so like I would rather enter something that's like mediocre and at least be on the radar and be like, hey, I'm trying. Like I'm really trying with all the things that like all the things that I'm going through and all the work that I have to do like I'm at least trying to get my work seen and I'm at least trying to put it out there and like, you know, the odds of me winning at something like that, especially if it is last minute and it is like mediocre and I know it's not my best performance, which, by the way, I think okay, people really like, oh, this is what I was saying about my audience. One, people really like talkatoo. That's one of my first actual productions, okay? It has almost no technique whatsoever. Well, it does, and I I did work like really hard on it, but like yo, I made that song in a tree, literally a tree, like like a tree. People like this song. It's for some reason gotten really popular, like no out of nowhere. Like people are like this song. I'm like, really? I made that in a tree with no plugins, no I'm pretty sure it's all stock samples. People love it. People love that song, but honestly it is one of my like it is it like it mixes with everything, talking to like if you need like a filler song and I think it is long enough that's like, yo, dude. Like, if you need to go to the bathroom or whatever, like this song is like the song rocks. And honestly, I don't know why that well, I mean, like that song is special. It was the first song I ever heard played back on a system at a festival. because I was like, like here's my music, whatever. And I didn't expect because the DJ was like,, you suck. And I was like, and just be just looking at me because I like ran up during a fucking uh, like a power outage at this fucking rave. I was like, yo, like this this might be the only time that I could actually talk to the you you miss 100% of the chances you don't take. So I was like, okay, like, this might be the only time I could talk to this guy. The power just went out and I was like, then now is my chance because like otherwise mid party and it was a good party, like it was a good one. It was a good it was it was a good one. It was a really great. It was a really great. um but, yeah, that was the first time I ever heard my music played back because I like ran up and I was like yod like here here's me, here's my music, here's a flas I have like you could keep it. has my music on it and it had I think at the I think it just had copy and paste on it like that whole EP was done and so a copy and paste is just talk to this other song called Nero, which has me like hand drumming on it, which is a cool song too. I use the Ableton push. I love the Ableton push and I had to forfeit it because it wasn't going back in my luggage. I couldn't afford it. So somebody fucking I feel charitable about this. Somebody inherited a $1200 at the time that it's depreciated, somebody inherited what I paid $1200 for for free, I think we're even. Anyway, um I add in uteroakatu and 43 on it. That's copy and paste and like, I I ran up during a blackout and I was like here. like, here's my stuff. And he was so annoyed. The DJ was so fucking annoyed. He was like, what are you saying? Like, and if they were like, the powers are, we can't get the power to come back on. so like people had started like a drum circle over in the corner and some people were leaving, they're like, you know, when the power goes out of a fucking festival or a rave like first of all, it's not a it's not a slammer. Like it's not a banging fucking festival and or rave if the power doesn't go out at least once or the cops come. Like if there's no raid, people don't get raided these days, do they? Yeah, that used to bring like a certain element of fucking like fear and excitement that like, yo, this party might only last five minutes. Let's get it anyway. It's New York old New York rave culture. hey, they're having a party over here because we're having a party over here but like shut down that party. Snitches in New York have always been a thing. like, if somebody over there is doing something that competes with your business, like you snitch on them, that would that's old school dance music culture. That's what they used to do, like those little preppy and we're not gonna put a color to it, but those little preppy boys that were like doing the old school, like underground, like break it in raves. Like that's what they were doing. They were like, oh, he's uh doing a there's a party over here in a secret place over here that shouldn't be. But those people were also doing a party and they wanted all the fucking people to come to their party and said that that party. So they were just snitch. They were just like hey, I got a tip. I got a tip on these motherfuckers. And then and then the other party would get shut down and everybody would be like, rolling balls, be like okay, we're still need a I need a party, like where's the other party? And there would always be somebody from the other party there to like usher people to the other party, like, I know where the party is. Yeah, these people. Anyway, I have I have such a love for the culture. What what the fuck was I just saying? Oh, one people have talked to which I made in a tree. That's almost that's almost discouraging. I'm like, yo dude, I'm footing in all this fucking like putting in all this extra work and like this fucking sound design and engineering and like trying to fucking trying to achieve subtronics but sober. Ha ha I'm like, uh, I'm also like ten years older than this kid. at least, excuse me, I don't know what the fuck is happening. Coffee early in the morning. Is my nose running or is it just like, oh, it's almost summer, so we're getting moist in the bitch, like we're just gonna get tepid for the next six months with no rain. Like it's gonna be like the moistures in the air. Enjoy that crawls. anyway I need to figure out what the fuck is schitz is or if that's what it's called. the longer I stay in New York. The easier it is for the old Jew and me to fucking arise. Ugh Anyway, what the fuck was I just saying? Oh, I love this about my statistics. My fans, although there are a few of them are speckled all over the world. I still don't know where Kazakhan is. but I think I have I have a couple listeners in Kazakhstan and they're in two different cities. I'm like that's pretty incredible to me. I was likeYo, dude, where the fuck is Kazakh stand? I don't know. I also found like, okay, like I don't I don't know where half these places are, but like I don't wanna go there although this place this one particular place I'm like oh dude, I don't know where the fuck you're at. I don't know where the fuck you're at and nobody knows where the fuck you're at cause I tried to look you up on a map and it was too distinctively like non places. I was like, is it this place or this place? And they're like it could be this place where that place? And I'm like cracked, but where is it? They're like nowhere, don't worry about it. I'm like damn! Okay, but I have a family there, so that's cool. I got fans all over the world, but they're like speckled. They're not, you know, by the hundreds or millions or billions. Are we gonna talk about that? Eventually, eventually, yes, we'll talk about my love of late night television. Yes, we have talked about that. But not right now. Because that could easily take up a whole episode, easily take up a whole episode. If you ever want to know the state of like if you ever want to know the state of mainstream, America, just check late night, because honestly, that's just like an anchor man dressed up in a little monkey suit as to whatever the fucking day people were talking about reiterated for the night people to understand. It's the same news. They are part of the news networks. I've just realized this cause I'm like oh no that's more like entertainment oh, it's the news. It's just the news kind of funny. It's just the same news that like whatever the NBC oh no, okay, like let's not NBC. Oh, yeah, NBC is doing enough right now. like go. No wonder why they didn't want causeby to buy the network, they would've fucked up their plans. He would have fucked up their plans. I'm like, I don't know what he was gonna do with MBC, but like he would have fucked up whatever they're doing now. That's why they prevented that. They were like, no. no, we have plans. They they're for the foreseeable future. Anyway, let's not NBC, because there's also CBS and uh that's it. At this point, I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty sure they're just like moving towards like the like a mass conglomeration of like, we're all the same. I'm like kind of like, and what's funny is they outfit themselves to pretend that they're like, I like this is so funny how left leaning it is when like all y' motherfuckers swing right easily. But I'm like, okay, I understand that this is for the masses, the masses are left swing. I'm like, okay, this is politics again, let's not do this. But everything is, it really is. Anyway, oh my go, what'll talk about my love for late night honor diff episode completely. Well, I mean, like we have a season devoted to it. We do, because I'm like, oh, they have to be like included in this in into the multiverse in legends, because like basically all of the mainstream pop culture like go like flows through late night TV. like that's where it goes. Like if you heard about it, you probably heard about it on late night TV because it is media like that's like anybody who's anybody goes through late high TV. I will not talk about all of I mean like there's so many different there's not really variations. I just said what it is. They're basically anchormen that are disguised not as anchorman. They are giving you the same news from the morning time news or the daytime talk shows, but watered down so that it seems like different news, but it's not as the same news all day. They work for the network, the network works for the dest network work for it themselves. What the fuck? I haven't figured this out yet, like on an intellectual level, I'm starting to, but it's one of those things where it's like mm kid, curiosity killed the cat. Curiosity killed and skinned many cats. Don't look here. I'm like, I got it, I get this. I got it, shut up. Shut up. Let me sit my fucking mug. guys when it comes down to it, I am assimilating well enough to be like, okay, I'm on Instagram twitch. Fucking I'm on Twitter, which is now X. I don't know. I think so. I have it. It's there like I don't use it or anything, but like I'm trying to see what the engagement for this upcoming season will be and if it works, then it works, but I have kind of thought about shooting this podcast in like a if I'm going to do anything, it's going to be anhilate night format where I have like a specific set of like this is what we're going to talk about. I do have a monkey suit picked out. I do have that because I like the format. It's easier it's easier for me to digest and then regurgitate information for my fans and followers this way. Like that's I don't know, like besides the fact that like I have been studying comedy for like the better part of two years now and that I grew up screenwriting and w like, ah, I don't know, like like I get it, though. I get why I'm so like hardwired to this. It's like yo dude, like via the television, we're so comfortable with these people because it's like oh like you're in my house like Lin Letterman, you're in my house like my whole entire existence, my whole childhood. So it's like that's like familiarity to a point that you can't you can't shake it. So like you can grow up and like, you know, the next the predecessors of the next and the next any man comes and like takes over the role of the last any man, but also like evolves the masses for the next coming generation and like the traits of the like it's it's a very interesting culture. I'm obsessed. like I love late night TV. I love TV, but I love late night TV specifically and we'll talk about that more in depth. I guess at some point because I do have to explain this entire weird what seems like an offshoot season well, it was kind of an offshoot season because I lost a season. I don't know what the fuck happened to it. Well now I'm going through my hard drives and I'm like, here it is. It's in here. It's all in here. I'm like, oh, so here we will answer my question. Soon, what did I write last year? I don't know. don't know at all. I really don't. I know a post in some of it. Some of it got like mirrored back in the universe, like, did you know you wrote this? I'm like, no, it's kind of prophetic in a way. just kind of happened. It took over my body anyway. What did I write last year? I don't know. Somebody read it. Somebody read it and then I have to do I have to do more like protections for my intellectual property because yo, I wrote half the Super Bowl commercials facts. I did I did. I was like yo,ude, I wrote this. Michael documents, what the fuck you do I Google documents? Like fuck you like fuck you unless that money is going into a pool to later pay me. When I like reach a certain level as an incentive, like we know we stole this from your fucking show, which, by the way, is just available online to anybody who fucking wants to copy and paste it and the descriptions you idiot. Yeah, I'm like yeah, well I mean like I can't really afford to join the writer's guild. They're like in that respect we will rip you off. only so that I can make sure that this commercial reaches your eyes and time for you to understand that like yo, you just put this out here for free. I'm like well love is free and music should be free. Like I'm technically just taking like a bag like a like a back step to like what the fuck is happening in the corporate world, which is sucking people like it's bleeding people who are already tired dry. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to be like, you know, like like, like, yes, I put like a PayPal about me link like if you want to donate to the festival project or later the complex collective cause I will not collect donations for my nonprofit until it's actually I've actually established the nonprofit as a 501 C3 and so like like the way that I'm doing my music right now is that like half of my profit goes to the festival project, which is like my my label, my independent label and media company. But the other half of my my like income, my earned income from music or, you know, however I earn or monetize, goes to the complex collective, which is a completely nonprofit organization, like meant to contribute back to the artists and like the artist community. not just the artist community, but just like to the overall health and wellness of like the like to to humanity as a whole, I think. Well, that's what the complex collective is kind of it's it's a health and wellness based nonprofit to the charity. So my the way that I what's it the way that I credit myself is that like the I use the complex collective, which is a nonprofit, as my music publisher, so that anything from the complex collective goes into the pool for the nonprofit, because I have to like, I can't consciously go throughout the rest of my life without giving back to my community and that way. like be because the way my life has gone so far, I don't like as much as I want to volunteer, I like well, I tried and then I like the the food bank that I volunteered for was like so and they had some organizational issues. They had some uh leadership issues. And so I was like, this is actually a toxic environment, which sucks. so I decided not to do that and uh and, you know, put all my uh energy of being like a charitable person into like my own, like I'll just my own nonprofits, non-for-profit is to give back to the community to artists and people in it in like transitionary, whatever. um That's the complex collective. So that's that's why you see that. That's why you see that badge on everything. That's the nonprofit sector. It is a subsidiary to the festival project, and I'm pretty much like devote my like I pretty much devote my my uh my gains, so to speak, into like both pools. Eventually, I'll have enough to then solidify the nonprofit with a um well, I have to you know, you have to pay. It's not it's not free for nonprofit. It's not. And so that's what that is. What else was I saying? Fans all over the world? Yes, we have fans all over the world. It's really cool. A lot of these places I've never heard of, but I do I find it a little bit, uh heartwarming and chanting, like I'm a little bit magical that like I'm hitting people in like some of the major dance cities, like Sal Paulo, Brazil, and uh like like places that are Amsterdam, London, uh I have more. I have more people in the UK than I thought, but it's okay because I I like them. I like them. Well, I like people. I like people that are people. Well, people be people on it so not all the time. Like sometimes I'm like, oh, this is like this is characteristic of your species. Like this is why this is this way. Like this is this is a whole human thing. It's not attractive at all. But I think we' close to an hour, I'd had to be oh, six minutes what do I got for six minutesronics. I'm I can't okay, I love subronics like as like Won as a fan because I went to a few of his performances. I'm not gonna lie. Every time his whole audience has BO. everybody. I'm like, oh, nobody in here has D right. But I think I got my fucking I don't know, maybe it was a sign. I was I was mixing the other day like nonstop and I'd been running around and I have a special jacket that I wear when I DJ that's like a really it's like a nice, I don't know what material it is, but it's really nice, like a uh a sports jacket, like a bomber. No, it's not a bomber style. It's like a I can't I can't remember this. It's like a sports jacket, but it's this material that's really nice. it's just always been my DJ jacket. It's like my lucky DJ jacket. and uh I usually wash it like on a delicate cycle and don't put it in the dryer to keep it preserved because it's really, really nice and I had been running around for a couple days and then mixed for like a solid, I don't know, I was in there like all together, I was in there, I think like nine or ten hours and I spent most of those the most of that time, like actively mixing because my music was not it was not s synched, so I had to hand pitch everything on four decks, which was overwhelming, which, by the way, I also did not know, which is why, like you like I did post at least one of the videos. but it's I'm embarrassed. I'm wearing yellow. yellow's not a good color. I'm looking heavy as fuck, like, oh, man, they had that video in the sidebar next to this girl, that's like a size double zero model. like fucking DJ and the rainforest with like grown footage and like HD, like, and then all her videos were like, she was she was like DJing and the one was like in the rainforest. one was like on a beach. Like she just had like she was all these destinations that had the drone footage, like money, but also like beauty just like pure beauty. Like she didn't have to do good. Like her music sounded good, but like she looked awkward as fuck not being able to dance to her own music. But still, like the like what why would you be paying attention to that when A she's beautiful, that's a distraction, be drone footage of like whatever the fucked rainforest or like tropical beach, like she was everywhere. I was like fuck this bitch. And algorithm's like Toby salty. I was like, I'm a little salty because it showed my thumbnail next to her thumb nail and I was like, no, no, no no. no like, oh so bad. So now I know. I know better than to look fat. Don't be ugly in New York. I was actually in full hair and makeup with my nails done with my Cardi B style nails. Yes, I was, but the yellow shirt on camera and it wasn't the best camera. It was like so I like I I used to have a camera like that when I first got into filmmaking when I was like eight. It was like the same camera. I'm like yo, this is bad. It's really bad. But, you know, all that's investments, investments. I don't think it's gonna be even I don't think it's gonna be any better, which, by the way, some people are delusional, bro. I just got Snapchat. I haven't had Snapchat since Allie died so I've been like I've been away from like that whole world and like seeing first of all, people actually pay money to dress their fucking, like, what are those things called? their little animated. Like, okay, you're paying money to put clothes on a on a 2D creature, you are dumb. That's why they do that, though. I'm like, oh, I need this forage shirt for my fucking Snapchat animated thing. I'm like, that's stupid. I mean, like if you got it. But still, even if you got it, it seems like I could have a million dollars and I still wouldn't spend a dollar to dress a fucking animime character. That's stupid. I like that's stupid. However, these are the same people that are posting actual like I could never post a selfie without filter on, cause I'm looking at myself in the camera with no make up and no hair and like just ugly. And I'm looking at myself in the camera and then one of these filters comes on and I'm like yo, I am beautiful. One of these filters comes out and just automatically made me pretty. And I was like, oh, like, but some people post that selfie and then they're under the or they put that as the background on their phone and they're under the illusion that that's what they look like like bitch, you don't look like that. You don't look like that you should not like that's for fun. You should not send those pictures. You should not you I don't think you should be able to save those pictures. Like, no, like, honestly, and if you post them, wouldn't it be funny if the algorithm just took off all the fucking corrections? Wouldn't it be funny if like, oh, like we see this filter, we'll just take off the filter when you post it. So like it posts with all without the Photoshop or without the filter, that would be hilarious. That'd be a funny hack. But coders who doing more like ethical things are nonethical things. I don't know what hackers do. I got accused of being one once, because I had a bunch of flash drives and hard drives. I realized that this is just like this is just what happens when you become a music producer. I'm like, I don't have space for this. I need more like I need more flash drives. I need more hard drives. I need more SD cards. Like I need space for my stuff. Somebody was like people think you're a hacker. I was like, you're an idiot. But that's hilarious. And that was one of the funniest things I've ever been accused of being, because it's like, bro, if I was a hacker, do you think I'd be staying in this fucking hostel, dummy? Fucking dumb. Why would I be hacking from this hostel? Well, I do really actually, you know what? I think that yes. But also we have more stories to tell eventually, what was I gonna say about subtrronics? I just love this music, very good, very, very good, very good. That's it. I don't have anything else to say. I thought I was gonna take up at least half an episode, because I was actively listening to it. I've been actively listening to it like sober in the middle of the day, but it is good running music sometimes. Sometimes I'm just like, oh dude, like I have to stop running and head bang. like this is inappropriate, this is inappropriate. I don't I don't know, I don't highly recommend a lot of bass music, like in the city setting, because something happens mechanically in your brain, something at least my brain, where it's like, oh, like that shouldn't synchronize this way. That shouldn't do that. Don't do that. why? What frequency? Idiots. idiots. lots the same guy, by the way. This is the same guy. He doesn't like, what's fucked up is he have a whole vehicle, he doesn't leave the neighborhood. Like he's a menace, like he does not leave the neighborhood. He doesn't. like he drives in circles all day. And like that's his that's he has like no other power. I get it. Like I' I'm understanding like I'm studying the psychology of people with small brains like this. is that like he has no power over like the rest of his life, so like that's his that's his like freedom. That's his power as being able to do that for like a second at a time, like he that's it, then he rounds the corner and does it again, then he rounds like the fucked up thing to me is it's like bro, you're not going to go anywhere with that. Like you have a whole vehicle, a whole vehicle, like anything I have to do I have to go on foot. That's I'm not gonna lie to disadvantage. I mean, like it's not too much of a disadvantage in New York, but anywhere else it's like, you don't have a car. I'm like, yeah. I don't. Like New York is probably the only place in the US that you absolutely really don't need one. You really don't. And honestly, when I see people with cars here, I'm like yo dude, I hope you paid that all the way off because like, honestly like if you're in debt for that, like you you lost like, you lost, like you're not going anywhere and it's like depreciating as you drive it, like this just like, I don't know. I saw well, I was on the bus and we hit a car. The bus kept going. Bus kept going and totally did. It did not make it didn't even flinch like the bus was like oops, you were over the line. I was like damn damn. So eventually eventually that person is gonna come out and be like, oh. ho No, anyway, we do have to talk about some of this entered the multiverse. We are over an hour, so thank you for listening. Yay, what I want on the peloton one arm on the pelotone. Again, I'm not getting paid, but I think going against the grain of like corporate greed right now is the best thing. So all of the things that I can possibly like put online for free. I'm putting online for free. um I'm also trying to get I'm trying to start the process of giving away like copies of my album for free and you know, as springtime and festival season gears up, public spaces. Oh, we didn't talk about the fluffer. First of all, I was worried that it wasn't gonna come out. Excuse me, gosh, what is happening right now? Flip? It snot. stuck somewhere trapped in my space. I'm sorry about that. If you can hear that on this recording, I apologize for that. I apologize, but whatever. Ooh, maybe, well, yeah, I do get like weird. I get weird when I don't work out enough, so I did that. I also went to the gym. I ran yesterday, and then I got on the peloton for an hour and I slept hard between like shaking myself awake to be like, my Amazon

- TROLLS: CHECK YOUR OWN REVIEWS FIRST!- Some Dentists Hate Admitting That Social Media & Marketing Matters…- New Fear Unlocked: GOING BALDQuestions:(03:04) – Are you going bald?(05:10) – Do you have a big backyard?(05:20) – How's the raccoon doing?(06:08) – In winter, do raccoons hibernate?(07:08) – When is the annual AAOMS meeting?(07:36) – Have you done tracheostomies before?(09:12) – Did you ever assist in gastric bypass surgeries?(12:20) – Do you think social media has changed the way specialists market themselves?(15:17) – How do you deal with trolls and critics on social media?(24:27) – Do you follow other creators for inspiration, or do you try to stay original?(28:36) – Did you look up the person who wrote that article in JOMS?(29:56) – Do you think younger dentists are too focused on looking like doctors rather than practicing as one?(34:01) – You own a Panerai watch?(42:21) – Would you ever buy a smartwatch, or do you prefer traditional watches?Quotes & Wisdom:"You can be the best surgeon in the world, but if your marketing sucks, you might not be busy." (12:20)"People are learning new techniques through social media. It's a quick and free way to gain knowledge. If you're not comfortable with it, that's fine, but the profession is shifting." (14:43)"If someone's criticizing your work but doesn't have any of their own content to show for it, that tells you everything you need to know." (16:43)"I Google trolls sometimes. 90% of the time, they have no clinical posts, or they're private. And their clinic reviews? 2.5 stars. It's always the same profile." (20:29)"Research is the foundation of our specialty, but social media is changing how people interact with their doctors." (27:47)"At conferences, the research guys sit at one end of the table, and the social media guys sit at the other. But why does it have to be divided?" (26:54)"I worry that some younger dentists focus too much on looking like a doctor rather than being one." (32:55)"When I passed my boards, I bought my Panerai watch. It was my way of marking that milestone, my reward for years of hard work." (36:13)Now available on:- Dr. Gallagher's Podcast & YouTube Channel- Dose of Dental Podcast #127- 2.2025#podcast #dentalpodcast #doctorgallagherpodcast #doctorgallagherspodcast #doctor #dentist #dentistry #oralsurgery #dental #dentalschool #dentalstudent #doctorlife #dentistlife #oralsurgeon #doctorgallagher

Lesley Logan and Brad Crowell break down key insights from Lesley's conversation with Sam Mandel, CEO and co-founder of Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles, one of the first ketamine clinics in the country. They explore how ketamine therapy can help reframe trauma, unlock new mental pathways, and provide clarity for lasting change. In this recap episode, they discuss the power of perspective shifts, breaking free from limiting beliefs, and why taking action—despite fear or perfectionism—is the key to growth. If you've ever felt stuck in your past, this conversation will give you a fresh way to move forward.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co. And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:How ketamine therapy helps reframe past experiences and shift perspectives on trauma.The role of ketamine in rewiring the brain and breaking old thought patterns.Why a structured clinical environment ensures the best results with ketamine therapy.The importance of normalizing alternative mental health treatments and breaking the stigma.How perfectionism holds you back and why taking “messy action” leads to real growth.Episode References/Links:Cambodia October 2025 Waitlist - https://crowsnestretreats.com Spring Pilates Training - https://opc.me/eventsPilates Studio Growth Accelerator - https://prfit.biz/acceleratorAccessories Flashcards Waitlist - https://opc.me/flashcardwaitlistKetamine Clinics LA Website: https://Ketamineclinics.com Sam Mandel's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thesammandel If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS!Check out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper's Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSoxBe in the know with all the workshops at OPCBe It Till You See It Podcast SurveyBe a part of Lesley's Pilates MentorshipFREE Ditching Busy Webinar Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Follow Us on Social Media:InstagramThe Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channelFacebookLinkedInThe OPC YouTube Channel Episode Transcript:Brad Crowell 0:00  The past is the past, but our story about it can change at any given moment. So the event still happened, but the story we tell ourselves about that event that is something that we can change. And he said the ketamine really helps you dig in, because, well, first off, he said the most challenging aspect of trauma is that we feel like it can define us, and ketamine helps you see the traumatic events with a new perspective, detaching from the overwhelming emotions and allowing for more objective processing. Lesley Logan 0:31  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan 1:10  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the eye-opening convo I had with Sam Mandel in our last episode. If you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now go back and listen to that one or you can listen to this one and then listen to that one. You can listen, too, in whatever order you want. I found it to be really fascinating.Brad Crowell 1:35  Yeah, actually, I always find it funny that people tell us we've clearly said this almost 300 times now, or 250 times now saying you could pick if you want to watch one, listen to one first or the other, or watch and. Lesley Logan 1:48  People need permission. Brad Crowell 1:49  But then when people meet us, they say, oh, I'm really enjoying your recap. So I listen to them first and then go back. Or other people are like, I don't know. I have to listen to this first versus the I can't listen (inaudible).Lesley Logan 1:59  They want to guess. They want to know if their takeaway is what we're going to talk about, which I think is really fascinating. I think it's also what a great personality test.Brad Crowell 2:08  Yeah. I don't know what conclusions we're drawing from it but yes. Lesley Logan 2:11  Here's what I would say. I listen to a couple true crime shows, and I cannot listen to the talking about the show until I've listened to the show, because I like the anticipation of, like, did he do it? What's going on? Like, I like that. And then I like listening to. Brad Crowell 2:26  What are you talking about you skip to the end? Lesley Logan 2:30  Well, when we watched The Crown, yes, I Google. I Google, like, if it is true. Well, sometimes the anxiety makes me want to know.Brad Crowell 2:37  This is the Lesley thing. We start a thing, there's some kind of stress, which is, in every TV show, it's on purpose. And then she pulls out her phone, Google's the resolution for the entire show. And then I'm always like, don't tell me. I don't want to know. I literally don't want to know. I want to enjoy the show the way they made it. Lesley Logan 2:54  I am not your friend to support you not finding out if you're having a boy or girl, even though I completely support whether or not they identify as that, I like to know. Brad Crowell 3:06  You're not going to do the Moira Rose, I don't know if you trust me with that secret. Lesley Logan 3:13  No, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to be I don't want to hold a secret. No, that's not true. I can't hold a secret. Brad Crowell 3:20  Hilarious. All right. Well, today is March 13th 2025 and it's a day for two specials things here. Lesley Logan 3:26  Oh, okay. So here we go. First up, it's International Every Girl Wins Day. This holiday helps bring attention to women's rights worldwide, especially to young girls. The celebrations involve talks, lectures and conferences on women's empowerment in every country, the goal is to achieve long-term systemic change that addresses women's rights to equity. The day also inspires young girls to take pride in their most essential assets. They're encouraged to support each other and be ambassador of the female empowerment movement, not just beneficiaries of it. The Ever Girl Wins Institute introduced this holiday. That's so cool. Brad Crowell 3:59  Yeah, pretty cool. Lesley Logan 4:00  What a fun day. Okay, well, that's so fun, we have to figure out how to celebrate that more. Let's participate next year. I don't know. Lex, if you're listening, let's talk about it.Brad Crowell 4:08  Yeah. Second up, it's National Open An Umbrella Indoors Day. Lesley Logan 4:13  What? Brad Crowell 4:13  Right? I was like, okay, I need to include this. So it's a day to test the popular superstition that opening an umbrella inside will bring bad luck. So I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't realize it. I've heard of walking under a ladder, something about black cats. I don't actually know. Lesley Logan 4:29  I have always heard that opening the umbrella inside is bad luck, but I've never participated in it, because where else are you supposed to open the umbrella, outside in the rain? Not everythin has a.Brad Crowell 4:39  You always open it indoor first, and then go outside with it.Lesley Logan 4:42  Oh, I kind of want to, if I can push the door open, I want to open the umbrella as I'm going outside, because. Brad Crowell 4:48  Yeah, as you're going outside.Lesley Logan 4:49  If there's not a, most buildings don't have a porch, like a, what do you call it? It's not a porch. It's not what you're staying on, it's, it's overhang. Most of them don't have the overhang. And I just think it's annoying, because then you're wet under your umbrella.Brad Crowell 4:49  Yes, yes.Lesley Logan 4:55  Okay, well, tell us more about this day. Brad Crowell 5:03  Apparently, superstitions are baseless beliefs held by people that influence their behavior. So, shame on you, apparently. There are irrational beliefs that performing or not performing particular acts will lead to either bad luck or good luck. National Open An Umbrella Day, Indoors Day, allows you to try your luck and see how your day goes. So if you're willing to risk it. Lesley Logan 5:27  I just think that this person is kind of an ass. It's baseless. Your superstitions are baseless beliefs. There are so much studies on where you have attention, that's where things go, and that's why manifesting works. So I would just say, focus on the good things. You don't bring in the bad. I wouldn't go wrong going, oh my God, this happened because I opened an umbrella inside, but maybe you do. And so this day is for you. Lesley Logan 5:47  Okay, so we are at P.O.T. Denver. It actually starts Friday, but we are on our way. And so if you're there, make sure you come and say hi. If you're an OPC agency or eLevate member, we are having a little happy hour, so make sure you come over and find us. We want to talk about it. We want to hug you. Then get this, guess what, guys, March 18th to the 24th the Accessories Deck is on presale.Brad Crowell 6:09  So that's less than one week, y'all. Lesley Logan 6:11  Yes, so if you go to opc.me/flashcardwaitlist, this is your last chance, because next week's podcast, we won't even be talking about it, because if you're not on the waitlist, you can't get the discount. So you must go to opc.me/flashcardwaitlist to get that 30% off. Brad Crowell 6:27  I think we'll still talk about it this week. Lesley Logan 6:29  No, no. Urgency, people. Get on it.Brad Crowell 6:30  Get on it right now, opc.me/flashcardwaitlist. Lesley Logan 6:34  Hey, look, in case our things fuck up, and even though you get on the waitlist, you don't hear about it. Brad Crowell 6:38  It's possible. Lesley Logan 6:38  Also, because this is the last flashcard deck. Is there a waitlist anymore? Brad Crowell 6:43  Yeah, what are we going to do with this waitlist? We're going to have to email y'all and be like, hey, this waitlist is now closed. Do you want to go over to other waitlists and we'll, we'll let you know what we got.Lesley Logan 6:52  Yeah, we'll have to, someone, whoever was on the team listening, please assign me that task. Okay.Brad Crowell 6:56  Okay. Lesley Logan 6:57  April. Brad Crowell 6:58  Coming up hard. Coming up fast. Lesley Logan 7:00  April is coming up fast, and Spring Training is going to be April 27th through May 3rd, and those who are on the waitlist are going to get the early bird special. And this is a different waitlist than the flashcard waitlist. Brad Crowell 7:12  True. They're not the same waitlist. Lesley Logan 7:13  No, they're not. And so if you go to opc.me/events you are going to be entered.Brad Crowell 7:19  That is plural, opc.me/eventsLesley Logan 7:21  Plural. That's where you go to make sure you get the early bird opportunity, because we will open up the early bird sign-ups a few days before regular sign-ups, and only those on the waitlist are going to get the discounted rate. Up next, Brad, what do you got for them? Brad Crowell 7:35  Okay, we've got the Profitable Pilates Accelerator free webinar, if you are taking any clients on your own anywhere, whether that is at your house or in the park or your friend is, I don't know, buying you lunch. Technically, you are getting paid to teach, and that means you have your own business. And I'm sure you're aware, Lesley and I have been working with business owners just like you, just like us, where we were and where we are, coaching them through all the hard questions. How do you get new clients? How do I make this a living? Whatever the question might be, but I have a free webinar for you, specifically on increasing your income. Okay. So, come join me. Go to prfit.biz/accelerator that is profit without the O dot B-I-Z slash accelerator and join me for this free webinar. I can't wait to dig into the three biggest secrets that Lesley and I have learned after coaching more than 2500 small business owners just like you. And then finally, we've got October of this year. Lesley Logan 8:40  Cambodia.Brad Crowell 8:41  Cambodia. We literally just got back. Lesley Logan 8:43  We just got back and it was kind of a quick trip for us. We were only there. Brad Crowell 8:47  Two and a half weeks. Yeah, we were traveling for two and a half weeks. Lesley Logan 8:50  Yeah, we had a couple of days in Singapore, so not really two full weeks in Cambodia, but we loved it, and we're jonesing to go back already. And we have some epic people who already signed up. I'm really excited. Some of these people have been on the next time I'm gonna go next time for years, and now they're coming. Brad Crowell 8:50  It's true. Lesley Logan 8:55  And we have some repeat offenders. Brad Crowell 9:09  We have someone else signing up this weekend. It's definitely starting to get full. October is a very popular time for our community. The weather is lovely. It's quite beautiful. If that's something of interest to you, make sure you reach out to us as soon as possible, and we'll get you all the information that you need to make the decision. But it's going to be October 12th through the 18th, 2025 so, come hang out in our favorite place in the world. Lesley Logan 9:33  Yes. Brad Crowell 9:33  Where do you go? Crownestretreats.com crowsnestretreats.com okay.Lesley Logan 9:39  Okay, so we're gonna get into the amazing Sam Mandel, and we're gonna learn all about ketamine and talk about it. Before we do that, we have a question from the audience. Brad Crowell 9:48  We sure do. Okay. Eva de Brune from Instagram, states and asks, I know you enjoy lifting weights. Is the reformer, like the Contrology reformer and mat and Wunda chair, etc., is that enough? Or do you recommend adding weights to the workout routine? I get asked a lot, is mat enough? Yoga, you are using your body weight. What is your take on this? So a couple of things. So I think the way that this is written, I'm not sure if she's asking if she should go to the gym and be lifting weights, or if she's asking if she'd be adding weights to your Pilates practice. Lesley Logan 10:21  I think it's go, I think it's the first, which is going to the gym and lifting weights in addition to your Pilates and your yoga. So here's the deal. Unfortunately, many of the studies that have been done on Pilates implies resistance has been done with Pilates isn't how I teach. Scientific studies cost a fuck ton of money. I actually, I've postponed a particular call with a group that does these studies multiple times, because it's tens of thousands of dollars. And the reality is, it's not even the best way of testing, because the more Pilates you do, the more muscles you bring in. So then who should we be testing? You know, there's just a lot of things. So what I can tell you is, my Contrology equipment has the heavy springs, obviously, that is resistance. That is absolutely resistance. Is it the same resistance training as heavy weights? I don't think we can say that it is. And so what I'm going to say is, I know you're very busy. I know you've got a lot going on. I would love to be able to say Pilates is all you need. I don't think it's true. Brad Crowell 10:21  It's all you need. Lesley Logan 10:21  I don't think it's true, but here's what I would say, pick a couple of days to do some heavy kettlebells. Pick a couple of days to do some barbell training. You don't have to hit. I'm not actually a big fan of hit for women over a certain age, it's can be really cortisol-inducing, but I would do some or do some heavy weightlifting. I would, also, because it's cool, because it's really cool to see what you can lift. It's really fun. The mat alone is epic and amazing for mobility and strength training. But even Joe realized that people needed more, and that's why he brought the springs in. And it's not that they need more because the mat isn't enough. It's because they need support to teach the body parts that don't have the access yet. So I actually use my weight training as information on where I have work to do, like my Pilates practice could support my weight training. I recognize like I have a balance issue when I do my single leg dead lifts. And so I use my Pilates Cadillac and my reformer to help train the things that I need so I can weight-train better. So to me, Pilates is actually so I can do my life. I'm sure there's a yogi out there who's gonna get pissed if I say yoga is not an not enough, but I'm gonna be really honest, depending on what your bone density is doing, body weight exercises alone are not necessarily enough, because you need to stress the muscles. So that is where I do think heavy springs can be compared to lifting weights, but they're just different things. Brad Crowell 12:40  Stress the bones. Lesley Logan 12:41  Stress the bones, yeah, you stress the muscles, which pull in the bones, which creates good stress on the bones, which creates good bone density. So, the other thing I would just say is your body is you got one, and the longer we wait to challenge it, the harder it is to support it. And so if you went in my routine, I do Pilates five to six days a week. I lift three to four days a week. I do yoga twice a week. I walk every day. And I do these things because I actually want to be 100 years old and still be able to travel and hike and be independent. So it's just like, what do you want in your future? And then how does your fitness regimen actually support what you want? Where are you at in your age group? Notice I didn't mention any cardio in there, because my Pilates practice has bouts of cardio in it. When I'm doing some of my yoga stuff, my heart rate goes up. When I do some of my lifting stuff, my heart rate goes up. So I'm challenging my heart in multiple ways. I don't need to spend time doing that, but I would, I would lift some weights, babe. And yes, your mat practice is essential. It's amazing. It's great for mobility and longevity. But I do not have a study in front of me that says it's enough.Brad Crowell 13:46  Right. Well, great question, Eva, thanks for asking. Lesley Logan 13:49  Yeah. You know, here's the deal. If someone wants me to do a study, I would love to do it. You have no idea how much money you actually need to do it, and you need people who know the method. I would want to have people who are beginners, people who are advanced. I want to have women, men, but then, you need to know the women's cycle and where they're at. There's so much information. And I think that until we have that, you got to do it all. Brad Crowell 14:10  You got to do it all. All right, well, stick around we'll be right back, because we're about to dig in to a really interesting conversation with a doctor, Dr. Sam Mandel. We're going to talk about. Lesley Logan 14:20  Ketamine. Brad Crowell 14:21  Ketamine. Special K, all the drug paraphernalia names. It's all the same stuff, y'all, it's just actually how you use it. And he went way deep on that, so I thought it was really interesting. We'll be right back. Brad Crowell 14:33  Okay, welcome back. Let's talk about Sam Mandel. Sam Mandel is the co-founder and CEO of Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles, Sam and his father, who's also a doctor, opened KCLA in 2014 making it one of the first ketamine clinics in the entire country. Sam's passion for this innovative treatment stems from the profound and lasting positive impacts it has on people's lives. He believes ketamine therapy offers individuals the oportunity to rewrite their stories, overcome deeply ingrained mental patterns and step into a life filled with hope, resilience and joy.Lesley Logan 15:09  Okay, so when I got to talk to Sam, I was like, okay, I'm very interested, because we've had Dr. Kelly Bender on. Brad Crowell 15:15  Yes. Lesley Logan 15:15  She's a dear friend of mine, and I know that she does ketamine therapy and treatment, and we have a personal friend who we know has done ketamine treatments. She tried to do them on her own and. Brad Crowell 15:26  Yes, I mean, she was prescribed it, but she did them at home alone, which I thought, I didn't realize that was an option.Lesley Logan 15:32  And also, we have another friend where his wife has gone to the clinic like Sam's, and then he did on his own. And so anyways, so I just was very interested, because also, I think there's a lot of misinformation out there, and then when you have a death of someone who is abusing it with other things, then people get scared of something. And so I was really intrigued, because I think a lot of ways that people are affected of being it till they see it is they have past traumas or things going on in their brain that keep them from having the ability to be it till they see it. They have all the ideas. They've been listening this podcast. They have all this support, but then they have this stuff that's keeping them in their way. And so I really want to have Sam on because if ketamine can help them, then they need it to be it till they see it, right? So here's one thing I learned, ketamine is actually a psychedelic. I guess I didn't know that. I don't know what I thought ketamine was, so I thought that was really interesting. And it's really the only legally available psychedelic in the United States. It has the ability to dissolve these barriers that get in our way and help people get out of their own way. And so obviously, traditional talk therapy is really great. It can be helpful, but it says limitations. It's because our conscious mind gets in the way and makes it difficult to confront those deep seated issues. But ketamine acts in a different part of the brain than antidepressants can, and it allows these breakthroughs that aren't necessarily possible with other methods. And I think that's really cool, because we've heard of great stories of how ketamine can help people, like vets and different things, and like. Brad Crowell 16:57  PTSD.Lesley Logan 16:58  Oh yes, and it also like just kind of helps you take a different look at what the thing is. And I think in our own brains, we can judge ourselves for our actions we took or we didn't take in that situation, because it can be difficult to kind of forgive yourself about how you participated in an event that's affecting you, or how long it's, you just get in your head about it. And the way that ketamine can actually, when prescribed correctly and when done at a I think it's so cool that there's a clinic that you can go so, you know, you're safe, you know, I mean, first of all, it is safe. Brad Crowell 17:30  It's a controlled environment. Oh, yeah. Lesley Logan 17:31  It's a controlled environment, yes.Brad Crowell 17:32  I think that's half the reason why I stayed away from drugs was I didn't know what was going to happen, and if I knew something was going to happen to me and I was going to be impaired. Am I in a place where I'm going to be safe, right? So.Lesley Logan 17:45  Right. When I finally tried doing a little like micro dosing of mushrooms, it has to be at the house. There can be nothing going on. Brad Crowell 17:53  I can't have any obligations, no expectations from anybody else.Lesley Logan 17:59  Yeah, all these things we didn't even need to do that we could have just gone to Sam's clinic, and it's all set up in his clinic. Brad Crowell 18:05  Sam's clinic. Lesley Logan 18:05  Sam's clinic. It's called, not Sam's clinic. It's called, Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles, KCLA. So anyways, I just think that it's important for me to bring to everyone's attention here, that this is something that exists, and there are places that you can do it in a controlled way to actually get the true benefits from it. And because I've had so many people tell me that they have good benefits, I just didn't want negative stuff to keep people from doing it in the right way. Brad Crowell 18:32  Well, let's talk about why you might want to participate. Why would you be signing up to do a psychedelic? What I really enjoyed about Sam was him breaking it down from the perspective of a doctor, of what it actually is doing, how it's affected his patients. They've been around since 2014 so they're 10 years. So, they've done like, 30,000 treatments or something, you know, amazing. So he said ketamine helps people to craft the story around the trauma that they have. He said what happened is fixed, meaning the past. Whatever traumatic event happened, it's fixed, and it can never be changed. The past is the past, but our story about it can change at any given moment. So the event still happened, but the story we tell ourselves about that event that is something that we can change. And he said that ketamine really helps you dig in, because, well, first off, he said the most challenging aspect of trauma is that we feel like it can define us, and ketamine helps you see the traumatic events with a new perspective, detaching from the overwhelming emotions and allowing for more objective processing. The potential for ketamine to promote neuroplasticity, meaning your brain is creating new pathways, right? So, you know the expression, old dog can't be taught new tricks, right? Well, the whole idea there is that you're in a rut. You're in a groove, and it's really hard to jump out of that groove and create a new way of thinking, because we just default to what is easiest, and what is easiest is what we already know. So if we've defined for ourselves years ago that this thing equals pain, this thing equals fear, this equals whatever the thing is the story we tell ourselves, it is actually really hard to rewrite that story, and ketamine can help allow your brain to create those new storylines, those new pathways, so it helps bump out of that rut, which I thought was pretty cool. He said ketamine provides this kind of objective clarity. It can be extremely healing and transformational for people. Lesley Logan 18:51  Yeah, it kind of makes you go, should we all just go and do a ketamine treatment? Like, can it just be, like, the jump start you need? I don't know. It feels, I just, I feel like maybe it would help me get the all the journaling in the world that I've been doing, I might be able to speed up the process if I just did a treatment around the thing that keeps coming up.Brad Crowell 20:55  I think that's the idea. And I think also, even just the concept of that, it still feels taboo. It still feels like this scary thing that, great we've put it in a controlled environment, but I actually think it would benefit society if we normalized it. Lesley Logan 21:12  Yeah, well, we have to, first of all, we got to normalize mental health and that we all have different ways.Brad Crowell 21:17  Yes, same exact stigma as any kind of therapy, or any of that. This is a different form of therapy than talk therapy, than. Lesley Logan 21:25  I don't know. Maybe this is because we actually did do 14, 15 years in LA, and I knew people who were doing these things and doing controlled micro dosing of other things. And because my friend studies it, I know the benefits. And so to me, it doesn't feel taboo. Also, maybe we all could use a little bit of like, when you lived in LA, everyone had a therapist, and it was not unheard of for people to go, yeah, I'm gonna go get some ketamine therapy. We need to normalize all that for the rest of the country. Therapy is real. Do it. And also, if you can't get to, LA, do your research. But I would definitely use Sam's website for what you're looking at, as far as what the standard should be.Brad Crowell 22:07  Like the standard, which organization's the gold standard, you know, go look up Ketamine Clinics Los Angeles, and then compare that to a local clinic. Lesley Logan 22:14  Or and or go to LA. Brad Crowell 22:16  Yeah, or reach out to them and talk to them and ask them, you know, what they recommend. Lesley Logan 22:19  Yeah, they had some great stuff. So anyways, I think it's great. I think I could see where this could be really useful. And obviously it's not what you go do every Thursday. But if you've got -ish holding you back, what are you waiting for? Brad Crowell 22:33  Yeah, let's splash that -ish.Lesley Logan 22:35  I don't think that's what Sam wants.Brad Crowell 22:42  All right, stick around. We'll be right back with those Be It Action Items from Dr. Sam Mandel. Brad Crowell 22:47  All right. So finally, let's talk about those Be It Action Items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Sam Mandel? Borrowing Nike slogan, he said take action. Just do it. Honestly, planning and strategizing is important, thinking things through, figuring out who you are, what you want, and putting together a plan that actually matters. So, the just do it part could start with the planning, but I think it's so easy for us to have analysis paralysis. I was just having this conversation with someone over the weekend of yeah, I started to do the thing, and then I ran into a speed bump, and I had to make a choice. But to make the choice, I had to learn a whole lot of stuff, and to learn a whole lot of stuff, it was going to take me a lot of time. And then what did I do? Nothing, right? So sometimes maybe we can phone a friend and shortcut that maybe we can, I don't know, join a coaching group and shortcut that maybe we can call a doctor and shortcut that when it comes to the planning and whatever, but I think just getting out there and taking messy action, we talk about that all the time. Lesley Logan 23:43  And also, if you haven't yet listened to the interview, go listen to it, because you actually hear about how he and his father started the clinic, which was like just doing it. It was like a freaking closet with a tiny desk and everything. But I think as we plan different things, there's part of me that loves how I do things. I just go for it. And then sometimes you and the team have too many questions, and I'm like, I don't have the answer for that. I think we're gonna figure it out when we get there. And it doesn't always work that way. So I would say, if you are someone who has to know every single thing before you get started this Be It Action Item is for you.Brad Crowell 24:14  Yeah, there's just too many unknowns. So planning can stop you in your track. Lesley Logan 24:18  We've coached so many people who have made sure they have all their plans to a tee, and then something out of everyone's control comes in and fucks it all up. I've had friends who've literally planned exactly what they want their business do, and then literally, two months later, after they did everything to a tee, perfectly, exactly how they wanted, they spend the budget the right way, everything, then COVID happened, fucked it all up. Didn't matter. So, you know, I think there's a healthy balance. Brad Crowell 24:44  Yep. What about you? Lesley Logan 24:45  Okay, he talked about it's too easy to let perfection keep us from taking the steps that we need to take to get done who we want to be, so. Brad Crowell 24:51  Wait, say that one more time. Lesley Logan 24:53  It's too easy to let perfectionist keep, perfectionism keep us from taking the steps we need to take to get done who we want to be. So like. Brad Crowell 24:53  I think it would be better to say to become who we want to be. Lesley Logan 25:03  To become who we want to be, probably. So I couldn't agree more. And he said you're going to make mistakes, and it's really the only way you actually succeed in life. And he said, if you're dealing with mental health condition, he encourages you to call and so a lot of times perfectionism shows up as a sign of imposter syndrome that you're dealing with, but it could also be a way of you controlling things, which can be part of a mental health situation. And so.Brad Crowell 25:26  I mean, it's the same exact, here's a perfect example. If he's the gold standard and you don't live in Los Angeles, then you won't take any action, because you can't get to the best one, right? That is perfectionism. What you could do is take messy action, give them a call and say hey, I don't live there, but.Lesley Logan 25:44  What are my options? Brad Crowell 25:45  What am I, what should, what should we be talking about here and just see if there is a path or some kind of alternate option for you, wherever it is that you live. So. Lesley Logan 25:52  Yeah, I mean, we talk about perfectionism here a lot, and I would just say, don't get mad at the perfectionist tendencies that you have. Use them as a highlighter of where you have work to do, whether that is doing a controlled ketamine treatment to get over this perfectionist issue that you have, or it's how can I get a friend over here who I just envy that they just go for things to help me take a look at this thing that I want to do, because I can borrow a little bit of their imperfection and go-getterness and help you. You know what I mean? Brad Crowell 26:23  It's like a barrier. Perfectionism is a barrier that we throw up to keep ourselves from failure. Lesley Logan 26:33  It is a great excuse for not getting shit done. You are correct, sir. Like, I know a lot of people who will say, oh, it's because I'm perfectionist. That's why I haven't done it. And it's a really good excuse that people will just go, oh, well, that's true.Brad Crowell 26:45  For me, I think it's the other extreme of the concept of, oh, I don't set any goals, because then I can't be let down. If you heard someone say that, you would go, well, that's not how I want to live. Well, the irony is that perfectionism is just the flip side of that coin. We are inadvertently putting roadblocks in the way. We've got to make sure everything's good, because if we don't, then it's going to fail, right? Then I'm going to be let down. Lesley Logan 27:09  I really enjoyed him sharing his stories of how he built everything, because they had to be (inaudible). Even if everything they did around how they controlled the environment for ketamine was exactly to a tee, the way they had to open the business, grow the business, put things together, you know, they had to do it, trying to figure it out, because it didn't exist before. And so a lot of you who are listening have ideas. Brad Crowell 27:30  He said he went to a Radio Shack and bought a burner phone so that they could make sure they had some kind of a (inaudible).Lesley Logan 27:36  I think it was the Radio Shack that, like, is on Santa Monica Boulevard. Brad Crowell 27:36  No it's the other one. That one, you brought up, though. Lesley Logan 27:42  Yeah. I was like, but even if you just listen to this episode to learn from Sam, just getting started with what you have access to that helps you get going, we have to stop allowing ourselves to be like, well, I don't have enough information. I don't have enough of this. I don't have enough this to start, it's affecting your gifts from being enjoyed by the people who it's for. Imagine if Sam and his dad hadn't started in an office because it's not sexy enough, right? So anyways, just do it. That's what he said.Brad Crowell 28:09  Just do it.Lesley Logan 28:10  Yeah, I'm Lesley Logan. Brad Crowell 28:11  And I'm Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 28:12  Thank you so much for listening to our episode today. How are you going to use these tips in your life? Are you going to go to KCLA? Please let us know. Tag Sam Mandel. Tag the Be It Pod. And until next time, Be It Till You See It. Brad Crowell 28:23  Bye for now. Lesley Logan 28:25  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 29:07  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 29:12  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 29:17  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 29:24  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 29:27  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I chat with Renee Morris, Chief Curl Officer at Uncle Funky's Daughter. We explore her path from management consultant to leading a national hair care brand. Renee shares her approach to maintaining business control by relying on personal savings and family support rather than external investors. She discusses forming partnerships with major retailers like Target and Walgreens while building a creative team to drive innovation. I learned how she tackles recruitment challenges and ensures brand visibility at a national level. Looking ahead, Renee explains her vision to expand into skincare and education, and serving communities of color in new ways. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Renee Morris discusses her journey from management consultant to Chief Curl Officer at Uncle Funky's Daughter, emphasizing her desire to balance career ambitions with family life. We explore Renee's decision to purchase an existing company rather than starting from scratch, leveraging her experience in sales and marketing strategy within the consumer products sector. Renee highlights the importance of having a financial safety net when transitioning to entrepreneurship, sharing her personal experience of not drawing a salary for years and relying on her husband's support. We talk about Renee's strategic decision to avoid third-party investors to maintain control over her business, focusing on conservative growth and solving customer problems. Renee explains her approach to forming strategic partnerships with major retailers like Target and Walgreens, discussing the role of distributors in helping small brands enter national markets. We discuss the challenges of recruiting and nurturing talent, emphasizing the importance of fostering a collaborative environment that encourages innovation and creative thinking. Renee outlines her vision for expanding the brand into adjacent areas such as skincare and education, aiming to serve the community of color more broadly. We explore Renee's leadership style, focusing on adaptability and learning from failures as she considers new business ventures. Renee shares personal insights from her early career and hiring experiences, emphasizing the importance of trusting one's instincts during the recruitment process. We examine the role of social media and influencers in maintaining customer confidence and visibility during brand transitions, particularly when changes are made to product packaging. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Uncle Funky's Daughter GUESTS Renee MorrisAbout Renee TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Renee Morris, chief Curl Officer at Uncle Funky's Daughter. Renee shares her passion for helping curly girls solve their hair problems with unique and innovative natural hair products. Renee, I want to thank you for coming on Building Texas Business. It's so glad, happy to have you as a guest. Renee: Thank you, I'm excited to be here. Chris: Okay, so you won the award so far for having the coolest and, I would say, funky, but that would be. Renee: Play on words Right. Chris: But as far as a name for a company, uncle Funky's Daughter, yes. Okay, tell us what is your company known for and what do you do? Renee: So Uncle Funky's Daughter is a hair products company. We're based here in Houston, texas. I bought the company, so the parent company is Rotenmore's Consumer Group. But I bought the brand Uncle Funky's Daughter 10 years ago from a husband and wife team. So Uncle Funky's Daughter curates natural hair products for women, men and children who choose to wear their hair naturally, and so that's shampoos, conditioners, curl definers, moisturizers, stylers, finishers. Shampoos, conditioners, curl definers, moisturizers, stylers, finishers you name it, we make it. We also have a thermal protection line for women who want to blow dry and style their hair with heat, and we're distributed nationally Target, walgreens, kroger, cvs, heb, locally, so you name it, other than Walmart, we're there. Chris: Beauty Easy to find, easy to find, easy to find well, I have to ask this because I have daughters. I mean Sephora or Ulta. Renee: No, Sephora or Ulta. Yet we've been working that line. We can talk about that as part of this deep dive, but we've been working that line and but no land in Sephora or Ulta just yet okay, very good. Chris: So how did you find your way into the hair care product world? Because you didn't start there. Renee: No, I am a former management consultant 20 years management consulting, advising clients multi-billion dollar companies on how to drive revenue growth and through sales and marketing. And I was a mother of three kids. At the time my son was probably three or four, my daughters were two and I was flying back and forth between Houston and New York for a client. And I had this realization that I didn't want to do that as a mom. I needed to be home, but I still wanted to be a career person. So I knew I am not built to be a stay-at-home mother. That is not who I am, and COVID taught me that with isolation. And so what I started deciding was I wanted to figure out what I wanted to do next and I realized I had some options. Right, it's that fork in the road that you go through. You start to look inwardly every time you have that fork in the road and I did that and I said okay, your option A is to go find a company based in Houston and be a VP or senior VP of some operation. Option B is you find a small company and you're like a big fish in a small pond kind of thing. Option C is you just go do your own thing. And after I kind of went through it, I realized I worked for the Coca-Colas, like in GE Capitals of the world, in my past. I didn't want to go work for a big company. I didn't think I wanted to work for a small company because of my personality style, right, um. And so I decided I wanted to go buy something and then or have my own company. And so then the question becomes do you build or do you buy my? I'm a management consultant by heart, so it's always go buy something. Why? Because I can take it, I can fix it and I can grow it. And so then it became all right, well, what are you going to go buy? And so, like most people out there, they're thinking about buying a company. I started reaching out to brokers, I started doing some networking, calling attorneys, people that work on deals, that kind of stuff, just putting my name out there, and I got all the things that you normally get when you're looking to buy a company the gym, the dry cleaner, the storage facility, the gas station, all the things that I didn't want to buy because I didn't have a passion for them. And so, also, for background, my consulting experience in sales and marketing strategy has been predominantly in consumer products. So I know consumer products, I know revenue growth, I know marketing strategy. So I was like okay, so I kept looking and I used this hair product called Uncle Funky's Daughter. I found it when I first moved here in 2000. Like all curly girls out there back then, that was almost 20 years ago, my goodness. But 15 years ago back then there weren't a lot of natural hair products out there for women of color and women of curly hair with curly hair specifically. And so I googled when I first moved here natural hair products, curly hair, houston and Uncle Funky Stoddard came up. I've never heard of this company right. So I go to rice village and buy this product and I start using it. Extra butter, start using it. And for those out there that are, you know, african American descent, you know thick, curly hair, we do this thing called two strand twists to what. I love it. Two strand twist. Chris: Okay. Renee: So, you take your hair and you twist it in like instead, instead of braiding it, you put it in twists, and there are single twists all over my head right. So that's how I would style my hair wear it, rock a two strand twist. Those out there will understand that, look it up and then Google it and then and so that worked on my hair really well. And so, again, for those with tight, curly hair, finding the right hair product that works for your hair is tough. It is not easy, as you know. One of your team members, courtney, was talking about. She's gone through all the products Because you go through this product journey trying to find something that works for you right. So found Extra Butter, worked, loved it, and then I would stop using it while I'm traveling because I would forget it right at home sure. I would go back to some other competitive brand and it didn't work for my hair. So I'm like, okay, uncle Funky's daughter is the only thing that works for my hair. So I go in to get my Uncle Funky's daughter one day, after I, you know, had braids and wash them out. And yada, yada, yada. I'm going in, I'm getting my extra butter and this guy behind the counter who I bought hair products from for the past at this point, five years, says yeah, my wife and I are going through a divorce and I'm like, oh, so I do have an MBA right. I'm not some, you know, trying to sound like a shark, but my MBA said distressed asset might be willing to sell stress asset might be willing to sell. Like literally, that is the voice that went in my head. And so I was like, oh really. So I stood there in that store and I just chatted with him for hours and about the company, you know what, you know personally what he was going through, because divorce, you know, for those that may have gone through it, can be an emotional, you know troubling time. So I was a listening ear. But as I'm listening, I'm also thinking about like, okay, what's the story behind the brand? Is this going to resonate? And I'm also watching people come in and out, right. And so I said, well, if you guys are you guys thinking about selling it? And he gives me a story about you know what's happening with the sell and cell and I said, well, if you're ever thinking about selling it, let me know. So I walk out, I Google, because you know this is horrible to say, but divorces are public right right. Chris: Is it filed in state court? Renee: it's a public record so I'm figuring out what's happening with the divorce and I find out that the company is in receivership. And for those who don't know, because I did not know at the time what a receivership was, a receivership happens when a divorce is happening and the husband and wife aren't operating, behaving appropriately. Chris: Well, they can't agree on the direction of the company and it can be not in a divorce. But basically, owners cannot agree and a court may appoint a receiver to run the company. Renee: Exactly. Thank you, that's why you're the attorney and a court may appoint a receiver to run the company Exactly. Chris: Thank you. That's why you're the attorney. Renee: Have a little experience with that yes, so the judge had appointed this guy to be the receiver. I reached out to the gentleman and I said I'm interested in the sale of Uncle Funky's daughter, if that so happens to be the case. And so the one thing I did learn and you can probably expound on this is oftentimes in a divorce, when the receiver comes in, at that point that receiver is really thinking about how to get rid of this asset. And so those are all the things that I learned during this process, and I was like, okay, so he wants to sell because he wants to get paid and he knows nothing about this business. Chris: He was, you know no offense, no emotional tie to it, for sure no emotional tie. Renee: He's an older white gentleman who knows nothing about black hair products and so I was like, okay, so he doesn't know, he doesn't have an appreciation for the value of the company. And so I reached out and I said, okay, here's a number. You wouldn't believe the number I gave him and he counted with some minor you, some minor adjustment, and we bought this company for less than $100,000. And they had a revenue at the time. When I saw their tax returns, I think it was maybe a million or so that they claimed in revenue. At some point they said, but at least for sure I think our first year of revenue was probably around and it was a partial year. Probably a quarter million dollars is what revenue they generated, and so we really, if you talk about a multiple of sales, we bought it on a tremendous it's a heck of a deal the deal. Okay, I can't find those deals these days. If anybody has one of those deals, you come let me know and so. So that's how we ended up buying this company ten years ago and shortly thereafter, target comes knocking at the door and says, hey, we were having this discussion with the owners about, you know, potentially launching. Would you be interested? And I'm like, absolutely. And it was because they were going through this divorce that they couldn't get over the finish line, right? And so shortly after we buy, we're launching in target. But before I did that, one of the first things I did was because, if you ever, if any, it's probably so old you can't find it. But the label. When I first bought the company, when I was buying it, it was this woman's face with a big afro on the front and it had a cute little 70s vibe on it and it was in this white hdpe bottle which, by the way, those aren't recyclable. So I said first, we need to change this, we got to change the packaging, we got to upgrade the label, we need to make it universally appealing to all curly girls, because if I look at a woman with a big afro, I think tight, curly hair like mine right and our products work across the spectrum from wavy, like Courtney, to really tight, like Renee, and that wasn't representative on the label okay so we redesigned the label, changed the bottle from an HDPE bottle to a PET bottle, which is recyclable, and then just upgraded this packaging to what I consider a sleeker new look. Chris: Very good, Great story, Thank you. So back up a little bit, share a little bit, because so you go from big corporate consulting job some comfort in there probably. You mentioned travel and you did mention the mom aspect playing a role. But let's talk a little bit about actually getting the courage to take that leap out of the big corporate role into. I'm going to buy something that's all on me now to either make it or break it. Yeah, that had to be scary. Renee: It was, and I am fortunate in that. You're right. I had comfort. We have financial security. I had a husband who was, who still is, who's a senior executive in medical devices has nothing to do with anything about consumer products, but you know, we have the luxury for him to say I can carry this load, financial load, and I think that's the big mix, right? I tell people all the time if you're going to take that leap, you got to make sure you've got cash flow, because for not only for your, you know, for the company, but for you personally, right? Because there were several years where my husband called my business a hobby Because I was contributing nothing to the financial plan. Chris: In fact, you were probably taken away. Yeah, I was taken away. Renee: So every year I mean. So I wasn't drawing a salary. I didn't draw a salary for a couple of years after I, I didn't draw a salary until our tax accountant said you have to draw a salary because we're changing you from whatever tax to an S-corp. And I was like oh, wow, really Okay. So what am I going to pay myself? Okay, and then he goes Well, you have, and it has to be reasonable. So for probably three or four years after I bought the company, I didn't draw a salary. I was paying my employees but I wasn't paying myself. And so I think and I say all that to say yes, it takes a leap, but it also takes the ability and the willingness to take that financial hit Right. So were there things that we probably wanted to do as a family that we didn't do? Probably so. Chris: Yeah. Renee: Because I'm growing this brand and was there times I went to my husband like I need another thirty thousand dollars? Probably so. And because one of the things I specifically had chosen is I did not want, and I currently still don't want, to pull in private equity, vc any type of third party investor funding. That is a personal decision I've made and it's because I am a former accountant and I'm extremely financially conservative and I also don't want different incentives to help influence how I run my business, different incentives to help influence how I run my business, and what I mean by that is I personally just didn't want to have a PE company saying you need to do these three things because your multi, your EBITDA needs to look like this and your revenue growth needs to look like that. Right, so I could have we could have easily grown really fast, like a lot of brands do, and grown themselves out of business, or, but I chose the path to grow really conservatively Now, and so I think I say all that to say I think, yes, financially speaking, having the bandwidth to be able to float yourself and your company for a while is critical, and so don't take the leap if you're still, if you're at your job today, living paycheck to paycheck right, you have to have a cushion. Your job today, living paycheck to paycheck right, you have to have a cushion. So what that means is, maybe if you're trying to start the company, then you're running your business while you're living paycheck to paycheck and oh, by the way, you gotta stop living paycheck to paycheck because you got to start to build that cushion, right. So some of the you got to make sacrifices and I think that's the hard thing. Not everyone's willing to make the financial sacrifice that it takes to really run and grow a business without third party support. Now, in today's world, you can go get bc capital funding and you know money is flowing, or at least it was, you know but there, but there's sacrifices, but there's sacrifices with that, and so, yeah, that's great advice, you know. Chris: The other thing that you mentioned, as you were evaluating companies is one of my favorite words when it comes to business is passion. You passed on a ton of things because you weren't passionate about it. Renee: Yeah. Chris: You found something you were passionate about, and I think that's a lesson for people too, right Is? It's not easy to do. As you mentioned. Sacrifices have to be made. So if you're not really passionate about that decision to go be an entrepreneur, start your own business. It's going to be tough. Renee: Yeah, it's going to be tough, and so, because I have to wake up every day, I my passion is really helping people solve problems, and I do that through hair, because hair is a problem in the curly hair community. How do I maintain frizz? How do I keep it under control? How do I keep it healthy so it doesn't break? How do I keep it healthy so it can grow? How do I stop the scalp irritation? There's so many problems that happen in hair and so I what I think about. Like literally yesterday I was with my marketing team and we're talking about a campaign for the next month for products etc. Or really November, and I said, OK, what problem are we helping her solve? And that's literally the way I think about stuff what problem are we helping her solve? Because if we're not helping her solve a problem, then I don't have anything to talk about. Chris: Ok, Right, yeah, it's not going to move off the shelf. Renee: It's not going to move off the shelf thing to talk about. Chris: Okay, right, yeah, it's not going to move off the shelf. It's not going to move off the shelf. So another thing that you kind of alluded to, you went through somewhat. It sounds like a kind of transforming the business that you took over, right? You mentioned the product label and packaging. Let's talk. What else did you, you know, in taking that business over, did you find yourself having to change, and how did you go about making those decisions? Are either prioritizing them and you know we can't do it all- at once yeah, so what walk? us through some of the learning you went through that well, you know what's interesting is. Renee: So it wasn't much of a transformation, but it was. If you think about learning from a marketing standpoint, if you're going to buy a business, especially a consumer product company, and you buy it in today's world where we're so used to knowing who the owner is the first people don't like change. So one of the first things I had to do was convince our current customers that nothing had changed other than the label. The minute your package changes and it looks different, they're like the formulas have changed, it's not the same be the same. It's not the same product. So the first thing I had to do was convince them that this is the same product. In fact, I brought back discontinued SKUs that the receiver had stopped selling because they were slow moving. **Chris: How did you go about convincing the existing customer base? Nothing changed. Renee: So news articles, facebook articles, facebook social ads, like having live conversations, going live on social media all of those were things that I had to go in and dispute or Dubuque being like I was the person respond. There was no team, it was me and one other person. The first person I hired was a social media person. Okay, wasn't a warehouse person, it was a social media person because I knew being the being in the face of the customer was so important. So being live and answering questions online, answering the phone and people would call they will go. I heard that this wasn't the same formula. No, ma'am, it's the same formula. And actually having those, it was me having those live, one-on-one conversations. And so I think really touching the customer and being personal with her was the key to our success in in gaining that confidence. And we also you know this was early in the days of influencers we also had to partner with people to be able to talk about. Like it's the same stuff, guys, this is the bottle. This is the old bottle. This is the new bottle. This is both sides of my hair, no change. Chris: Okay, okay, very smart to especially, like you said, I mean so many people now the social media influencers have such impact on what products get picked up in the mainstream. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom, and thanks for listening to the show. Chris:So let's move forward a little bit. Part of changing things new products. There's a level. You mentioned your marketing meeting yesterday. What do you do within the company to help kind of foster innovation and inspire your people to be innovative about the products? Renee: That's a tough one because it's hard. Here's the challenge that we have as a small company. As a small company, it's hard for me to afford to pay me like the equivalent of a me right. The woman or a man with the MBA in marketing who's got, you know, 10 years at Coca-Cola. I am oftentimes recruiting talent, that's learning and I'm teaching, as they, you know, grow up in our company and so innovation is really. You know, I'm usually in that meeting asking the provocative question Like do these assets, does this story come together like cohesively, what problems are we helping them solve? Like, I am there helping them think through and push their thinking a little bit forward. We'll sit and we just do brainstorming with, you know, little toys in the room and stuff to play with, but it's really just helping them kind of. All right, just toss some ideas out there. Let's just throw like what is this, what does this mean? What's her brand voice? What does she sound like? What does she look like? Like asking those questions to help them just kind of think outside of the box. Now, if she looks like this, so what kind of tone is she going to have? All right, so what would she say then? Okay, so let's talk about, like how then that manifests itself and how it shows up creatively, and so just helping them kind of drill down to the so what is really kind of the role I like to play. It's the role I'm playing right now because I'm looking for a marketing director. Chris: Okay, yeah, anybody listening out there. Renee: Anybody listening out there? Submit resumes. Chris: So you talked about some major players as partners that you have right, yeah. Target and Walgreens and CVS, et cetera. So let's talk a little bit about that. How did you go about? You kind of you told a little bit about Target, but what have you done and what have you found to be successful? And maybe strategies that weren't successful in forming those relationships, but maybe, even more importantly, fostering and maintaining those relationships. Renee: So forming on the forming side retailers. For those who may or may not know the space, they want to come to you in one of two ways either direct or indirect through a distributor. For a small brand like mine, it's usually hey, I don't want to service direct, I want you to go through a distributor. And usually it's because when you first launch, you're going to be in a handful of their stores not full distribution is what they call it so not in all 1700 Target stores, but I think we started out in a hundred and so we had to go through a third-party distributor, and so that distributor then opened the door to other national retailers for us. So if you're thinking about launching into a national retail partner and you're a small company like mine, your best route to market is finding a distributor that represents your category in a national retailer. So whether that's peanut butter, hair products, lotions, flat tires, whatever, so you have to go and find that distributor. So that was step one. Once we got that relationship, our job is to grow it by driving traffic through the stores and getting that sell through. If it's not generating units per store per week, it gets pulled right. So one person wisely said a retail shelf space is like real estate. Once you buy your home, you don't want to lose it to foreclosure. So once you've got that slot, my job is to defend those two slots. And when I say we're national retailers, we're not like a P&G where P&G dominates the shelf. We've got sometimes two slots, sometimes four, but we're not, we don't have 10. So our slots are really important for us at a retailer and so for me, maintaining the relationship comes back to driving the traffic to the store. But, more importantly, supply chain. So when I talked about growing too fast for some brands and having measured growth, it was very important for me because I understood I came from a consulting company, although I did did sales and marketing most of what we did as an organization was supply chain. I wasn't the supply chain person, but I like to say I knew enough to be dangerous when I bought Uncle Plunky's daughter. So because I understood supply chain, I knew that not, we could not risk. We needed to have safety stock, we need to have inventory levels that look like x, and so that's why I did what I called measured growth. And so you know the distributor may come to me and go. I can get you into Kroger, walmart. Nope, we're going to do one retailer a year, one big guy a year, because I need to make sure I can scale, I need to make sure my contract manufacturers can scale, I need to make sure my team knows what to do and they know how to execute and fulfill the requirements of that specific retailer and so that we are successful. So that was the way that we grew and that's kind of the way we've continued to grow. Chris: That's so smart, that discipline right. It's easier said than done, because you just start a company and you go a couple years not making any money, or what you do make you put back in the company and then you got all these great opportunities. Come at you once. Renee: It's easy to say yes yes, yes, yes and yes, but you can't fulfill those promises, no one will come back. And there are horror stories where brands have been like yes, I'll go into Target, walmart, kroger, heb, cvs and Walgreens all at the same time and they can't meet the demand or they launch and they don't have enough awareness in the consumer market to be able to support and drive the traffic in all of those stores. So you really have to focus on how you're going to grow, where you're going to grow, and how you're going to drive traffic into these markets and into those stores. Chris: I mean any details you can put behind that, just as some examples to make it a little more tangible of things that you did, things that you thought about. Okay, we have to get this right to kind of prove that we can go to the next level. Renee: Yes. So for Target we did a lot of in-store events, so we took Target. So imagine if I was doing replicating this across like five different retailers. But for Target back in the day, for social media was much more organic and less pay-per-play than it is now, right, so we would do like it's a 10-day countdown. You know, to Target we're launching in 10, 9, 8, like on social media, it was like running ads. Then we did a find us in the Target, so we would do these fun games on social media and our followers would have to find us in their local Target and if they found us and they won a gift card, so we were doing anything we could. We would do in-store events where we would just have a table popped up where you can try products, give away products, get coupons, you name it. We were doing it. Gotcha, we were doing events outside the store. Inside the store. I was rogue because I didn't have permission from Target to do this. I mean because that would have cost me tens of thousand dollars, right, Target, I hope you're not listening and so we would literally just grab a camera and kind of come in and we would kind of sneak our little basket through the store down the hall and we would sit in there and the manager would come like, oh, we're just doing some footage, and I would say I just launched and I'm really trying to help my business and they would get it because you know, their local store manager, and so they would allow us to do like a little bit of a, a little bit of a pop-up shop kind of thing, and they would allow it. Now, today they probably wouldn't allow it because we're probably a lot more disciplined, but 15 years ago, 10 years ago, they would allow it and so, yeah, so those are the things that we had to do. So imagine if I was doing that for sally, for walmart, for kro, all in the same year, and I'm still trying to drive the traffic right, because we were still a small brand. Chris: Sure. Renee: I still call us a small brand because you know, if I go to you and I say, have you heard of Uncle Funky's Daughter? And your answer is no, then I'm a small brand, right. If I say you cause, everybody's heard of Clorox, coca-cola, pepsi, all the things, right, lacroix, you name it, they've heard of it, they haven't heard of Uncle Funky's Daughter. And so we're still in constant mode of brand awareness, and so trying to build that brand awareness and drive demand in every retail shelf at the same time would have been a daunting task for a brand like ours. Chris: Sure, do you still have the Rice Village? No, okay, shut that down we shut it down. Renee: I shut it down when I bought the company. That was the condition of the acquisition, because the day that I went and discovered who the owner was of the brand and I was sitting there chatting up the guy, in about a four hour period that I was there, maybe three people walked into that door okay so that you know, my brain said all right, that's a like a revenue killer. I'm not, you're not driving revenue right you need to focus on driving traffic on the retail shelf, and so are. We have no physical retail store now. Will we once again one day, maybe in a different format? Right, because now you, my friends? Other people have said you guys should open up a salon, and I'm like so maybe we'll open up a salon where the products are available and featured, but a retail store exclusively focused on our products will not be in a timeline. Chris: Okay. So there's an example right of an idea from friends. Maybe you thought about it, of branching out from what's core to your business. So far you've said no because you haven't done it. Maybe it's still out there. Why have you not done that? And I guess what could you counsel some listeners if they're faced with that? Or maybe they've done it and trying to make it work Again. That's another danger point, right Before you kind of branch into something different. Renee: So there are two things what I think about. Again. I always go from management consultant first right when I think about my business. I don't think about it personally, right, I think about it objectively. So I can go deep in my vertical or I can go wide horizontally, and I can do both. And so right now, where we are as a brand, honestly, is we need to go deeper in R&D and innovation. So we have not had an opportunity to launch a new product since COVID, and so we're in the process of developing a new product, so that's my primary focus. A new product line so we're developing a new product line, so that's my front focus. New product line so we're developing a new product line, so that's my front focus. Then, as I start to think about adjacency, about how do we take our core and expand and pivot beyond. Do you go to Skin next and stay in consumer products and go into Skin? Do you go in the two places that I'm more actively looking at Skin is out there as a product extension, but that's still core to Uncle Funky's Daughter. Do you go and do you buy another small company within Rote Morris Consumer Group and now you build a portfolio of brands? Because that's, really what I wanted to do when I started Rote Morris Consumer Group. My vision is to have a portfolio of consumer goods brands that meet the needs of the community of color, whether it's beauty, so for beauty. So that could be hair, that could be skin, it could be makeup, it could be a variety of different things that help her solve her problems every day. So that's really the vision. And then I bought this building a couple years ago and we have this wonderful, amazing space, and so and I open up this space I'm looking around. What are we gonna do with the rest of this space? We have this whole first floor, we have a whole second floor that's unoccupied, and even before I bought the building, this idea of building talent and a pipeline of funky junkies is what we call our followers funky junkies yeah that's what we call our followers, our customers. But how do you start to build not only a pipeline of loyal customers but a pipeline of loyal users? And so I started thinking about what if you actually had a trade school? What if you actually started? What if you were the next Paul Mitchell for African-American hair products, right when there's a Paul Mitchell school and you're teaching natural hair instead of you know other treatments that they do, and those exist outside of Texas. There's one that exists in Houston, but not focused on natural hair, but focused on beauty school. And so for those people out there who choose to have a different path in life and not go to college, but they're looking for a vocation or trade school and they want to be a hairstylist or barber, do you create a space for them to be able to do that? So that's the second adjacency. And then the third adjacency is then do you go the other end? So I know how to do hair, I'm learning how to do hair, I've got hair products, I'm doing hair on the other side and that's where the salon comes in. So in all both ends of the spectrum, I am a deep analytical person, so it's understanding what's happening in the market. So in the salon side, you look and you have to figure out and this is for anyone right. You never take a leap in adjacencies just because you think you have the money, the capability, the resources, whatever. You have to understand what's happening in the market because you're not smarter than the whole market. You might be smarter than a couple people in the market, but not the whole market. And so when I look at the hair salon space, I knew of several people in the Houston market that had launched salons and they had failed. They had failed within a three-year cycle and they had failed because the type of offering service offering that they wanted to provide was challenging. And that's the same service offering that we would need to provide as a brand. Chris: Right. Renee: And resources and talent. Going back to this other end of the pipeline I was talking about, in the supply chain, those can be sometimes challenging resources to recruit and retain in a salon side, and so when I do the analysis, it's looking at the risk versus reward. How am I smarter than the next person? How do I learn from those failures and ensure that I can recruit talent where I'm not? I don't have a high degree of turnover. I can create brand consistency. I can create service levels that meet the needs of not only what I want to offer, but what our customers expect. I need to exceed it, and so, because I haven't gotten that magic formula yet, we're leaving the salon right here in the marketplace. Chris: It's still on the drawing board right. Still on the drawing board, I like. I like it well, as it should be, until you figure it out, right? Yeah well, so let's turn a little bit and talk a little more about you yeah in leadership. How would you describe your leadership style? How do you think that's changed or evolved in the last 10 years? Renee: so I am a type a, hardcore type a. I am a driver and I know that about myself. But I also know that one of my weaknesses as a leader is I don't micromanage. What I have learned to evolve because of my consulting background, right In a consulting world you know 20 plus years is how I was trained. I'm a former salesperson. You just go get it done right, you know. So that is that's kind of like my bread and butter, and you have a team of type A's that are pretty much driven just like you are. So when you guys have a clear plan and you've got the end goal, all you're doing is managing the type A's to make sure that they get to the goal right at a very high level. No one needs to. You set meetings to review the spreadsheet and the spreadshe's done right. Fast forward to Uncle Funky's daughter. You set meetings to review the spreadsheet and it's like, oh, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, what you wanted me to do, so it requires much more. What I'm learning is it requires me to evolve my leadership style from one that's hands off, that's a little bit more hands-on, to make sure that my team understands where the bar of excellence is what our customers want from us, what the implications are when we miss deadlines, what the implications are if we ship the wrong product to the wrong customer, and so showing them and teaching them is where I've kind of learned. That's where my role is as a leader, really helping them really understand the implications of behaviors. And so I've evolved to from a leader that's I'm still. I still tell my team hey, I don't micromanage. If I have to, if I know it before you do, that's probably a problem, and so so they understand that, and so I think I'm still evolving my leadership style to adapt to a smaller company with a different team that thinks differently from the type A consultants with the MBAs that I'm used to working with, to the ones who you know maybe they don't have the MBA or maybe they're going to get it, or maybe they have a desire to get there, and so it really has required. It's a growth opportunity for me that I'm still learning to grow in, to be able to shift my mental mindset away from I got a team of driven people to I got a team that needs to be inspired, you know. Chris: Yeah, that's great. So what have you done to try to help you in the hiring process? Make sure you're making the best decision you can make about who you're bringing on your team? Renee: You know it's the hire slow, fire quick. Chris: Yes, another easier said than done. Renee: Easier said than done and that's where I am right now. Even in this open marketing director job that I'm looking for, it's really making sure I've gone through I go through so many, I go through all the resumes. My assistant will filter out the trash. But once she's filtered out the trash, I'm looking at those resumes going okay, is this someone who's going to? Because I'll openly say the reason I'm looking for a marketing director. I'll tell you this story. So I hire this person and she's from Adidas. She comes from Adidas background in marketing and she's Under Armour in marketing and she was in Latin America director of Latin America markets and she's just moved from Houston. So I'm thinking I've got a Latina because it's part of my demographic. That's awesome. She's got this global brand experience that's awesome. All in athleisure but transferable skills. It's marketing. She quits three months later, found another job in athleisure. So I interviewed, interviewed and found this one and this woman, you know, sold me on. I mean we had multiple conversations. I was like you know, sold me on. I mean, we had multiple conversations. I was like you know, hey. Chris: I'm really concerned about whether or not you know you can migrate from big company to this small company Cause it is a very valid concern. Renee: It's a big change. Right, you don't have a team. Your team is a team of three, not a team of 20. Right, and so your role really changes. And so she. You know, she convinced me that, but the lesson learned was that you know my spidey senses. I didn't listen to them. Like my spidey senses said, she may not stay. Like there were little things that happened along the way you get enamored with all the other stuff. Right, but I was so hungry to have a big company, someone to come in to show my team other than me, for them to hear it from someone other than me that this is what marketing looks like, Right, this is the marketing discipline that we need to have. And so she came in. She brought some marketing discipline. She heard that, you know she brought some value in the three months, but it was. It's been really a painful learning process, right, because now I'm short of marketing director, I'm stepping in, yeah, yeah. Chris: Well, what you alluded to there, right, is just the cost hard cost and soft cost when you make a bad hiring decision yeah Because you know you're having to fill the role or someone else. Renee: Yep, so that distracts, you, it's me right now. Chris: It distracts you from doing your full-time else. Yep, so that distracts you. It's me right now. It distracts you from doing your full-time job. Yep, you're now spending time going through resumes and going to be interviewing and you wasted, if you will, all the time on the one that only lasted three months. Yeah, so there's a lot of cost there. There's a lot of cost there. Renee: And then you're sitting there and knowing I've got to restart this whole process, I've got to try to maintain the momentum within my team this is the second marketing person they've had in the past year so and so how do you start to just kind of manage through that and so, instead of and when you get burned, that one time, as I'm looking at resumes, I'm looking at people with deep experience in a particular industry and I'm going oh nope. Chris: Learn, that is, that there's that bias creep right you're. You have to not let yourself penalize these people you've never met, just as they might look the same on paper yeah, as the one bad actor in the group. Renee: Yeah, and so you and you're right, and so I'm going well, and I'm having these conversations and then yeah, so it's just. Yeah, I think that's like one hiring, firing, hiring slow, firing quick. Chris: Sometimes, even when you hire slow, you still get I tell people it's part science, it's part art and it's the more process I think you can put in place and follow the better. But you're never going to be 100 right and I think figuring out the characteristics that work in your organization is something that you can incorporate into your hiring process and know that this is the kind of background traits, characteristics that thrive here. Renee: Yeah, and even and I would also say, listening to that, you know, those spidey senses that are coming with those thoughts creep in like, and they were coming like there were things, there were triggers that happened through the hiring process. Then I was like I'm not sure she's going to be a good fit. Like you know, for example, she called and said hey, can I work from home? I was like no, you cannot work from home. So that was like that was. Oh, renee, we're gonna do a whole episode on work from home. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And so those were the triggers of like, okay, she might not be the good fit. And when those were the when that happens to you, you got to listen to it and like and be okay with backing out. But I didn't listen to the trigger because we were so far down in the negotiation and I should have just said, you know, I don't think this is going to work out Right, and rescinded the offer. But I had already extended the offer, right, and I didn't want to have egg on my face. Chris:Sure. Renee: So I mean I, what I should have done is just let my ego go, rescinded the offer and continue to look. Chris: Yeah, or at least be upfront about this is starting to give me concerns. Here's why. Renee: Yeah. But I you know you know it's which I did that I did that okay, she covered it up she covered that up. She told me exactly what I wanted to hear, but still the those doubts were in my head and I should have listened to my gut. And that gut is a powerful thing. You know that, maxwell Galt, maxwell Galt Gladwell, it's a powerful thing. And if, when you listen to it, you're usually right, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Chris: Renee, this has been a fascinating conversation. Just to wrap it up, I have a few just personal things. I always like to ask yeah, what was your first job as a kid? Renee: Newspaper. I was a newspaper girl. You had a newspaper route? Yes, Absolutely I did. I'll be darned. My sister got up in the morning and helped me through my newspapers. Chris: You're not the first guest. That was their first job it was fairly common. Renee: You had to make me dig deep for that one. Chris: Okay, you made me dig deeper on this one. Sometimes people say this is the hardest question. Yeah, do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Renee: Barbecue no sauce Seasoned, very well seasoned, no hesitation. Chris: No, no hesitation and the woman knows what she wants. Yes, right. Renee: Don't bring me brisket with sauce on it. No. Chris: No sauce Extra seasoned. Renee: I want seasoned brisket, the moist kind. Okay, and, by the way, I'm not a Texan, but I moved to Texas and now I've been here 15 years and now it's like brisket barbecue. It's the only thing that I eat. Chris: I eat it's the only thing I want to eat. I might die of a heart attack, but it's the only thing I want to eat. I love it All right. So because you have four kids and I know your life's running crazy, this will be more of a fantasy. Renee: Yeah, if you could take. Chris: If you could take a 30 day sabbatical, where would you go? What would you do? Renee: Oh, I would be somewhere, probably in South Africa, in the, probably on a safari. I would tour safaris. I would go South Africa, kenya. I want to see the migration of animals. I would do that. Chris: I love it. Renee: That's where I would be. Chris: Renee, thank you so much for being on. This has been just a pleasure getting to know you and hear your story. Renee: Thank you. This is awesome. I listened to NPR how I built this. So this is like my. I feel like I'm excited. I've kind of done the NPR check. I like the how I built this check. Do you listen to that? Chris: I do, I do, I love it. I love that analogy. Renee: Yeah, it's great. Chris: Thanks again. Renee: Thanks for doing this. Special Guest: Renee Morris.

AI agerar som kassör på McDonalds men beställningarna blir inte riktigt som tänkt... Vi fortsätter prata om saker som är överskattade och det snackas fotboll med Marcus Birro. I Google trends får vi höra vad vi ska göra om vi inte vill vara fattiga och hörni, glad midsommar på er!!

Entrevista interessant, ja que aquesta setmana s'està parlant de ciència amb alguns dels investigadors més destacats, però d'una manera molt distesa i en llocs singulars. En parlarem a l'espai entrevista. I en l'actualitat setmanal, que tenim preparat per la tertúlia frik? El Banc de Santander confirma un atac no autoritzat a les dades dels seus clients. Nove versió de IO's 17.5 amb una gran funció de seguretat. El governs ja te preparat el seu pla de IA, i costarà 1500 milions d'euros Andorid auto la lia amb la nova versió I Google mostra un vidio que Gemini competirà amb GPT-4.0

We have seen an exponential growth in AI development over the past year. I mean, it has invaded every corner of every market and real estate is no exception. Today we are gonna talk about how you can use AI to improve your business and improve your life.ResourceCheck Out Nick Krem's WebsiteReal Estate Marketing DudeThe Listing Advocate (Earn more listings!)REMD on YouTubeREMD on InstagramTranscript:What's up? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. Another episode of the Real Estate Marketing Dude podcast. Folks, remember chatting today about a topic that a lot of people are like, What the fuck? You say It could do this. You could do that. Really? I can't use AI. I can't use automation. It's too confusing. That's stuff's only if you're really, really smart people.00:07:07:16 - 00:07:25:16UnknownDo you guys? I've been literally messing with the air automation and I'm looking at chat and Tiny in the Zapier and looking at automating my content from my blog, from my YouTube channel, all the way across all social platforms. And I mean, honestly, if I could do it, you can't do it. This is not anything that is. I didn't believe how much you could do with it.00:07:25:16 - 00:07:47:15UnknownI'm getting really into this in the last few weeks, so I'm really excited to have today's guest on because this is what we're going to be chatting about. We've seen this dude on social media like popping up all over my feed and he popped open a message and he's like, Yo, I want to do some podcast, but I'm probably guessing that he probably had an AI bot responding to those passages on top of it that he got on this show.00:07:47:17 - 00:08:05:22UnknownBut this is a really good topic to talk about, man, because a lot of people are talking about how they can get more done for less. And honestly, like some stuff you could do with I literally can replace your social media manager nowadays and it's crazy and you need to know this stuff in anyways. This isn't even just a real estate thing.00:08:05:22 - 00:08:24:19UnknownThis is just a business owner thing and you guys got to know this shit. So I'm excited going to their show and I'm to go ahead and introduce our guest, Mr. Nick Grimm. What's up, Nick? What's going on, man? Yeah, and you're absolutely right. You know, I was talking about this with my brother last night was my business partner, and we're like, There's not a future where you where if you don't learn A.I., that you'll still be in business.00:08:24:24 - 00:08:40:03UnknownSome people think that, like, yeah, I don't need to learn that there is literally not a future where if you don't learn A.I. that you will still be in business. The quicker you get that out and just jump into it, the better you're going to be all for it. Well, I'm one of those late adopters to the sense where I'm like, No, I got to.00:08:40:03 - 00:08:54:18UnknownShould I correct content? Could create content better than me. Like, fuck those guys. This guy can't create content. This bot can't create content. They can't tell me no, actually, it's helping me create its album. Me like create better content. Yeah. And it's not so much of like how to use it to replace you as much as how to use it to enhance you.00:08:54:23 - 00:09:10:11UnknownAnd that's the way you got to look at it, folks. So, Nick, why don't you talk to us like let's take a very let's start from the high level. Don't get into really nerdy shit like towards the end here, right? So I don't know how what level people are on listening right now, but let's just get right into the use cases of it.00:09:10:11 - 00:09:25:21UnknownLike, let's just go ahead and define because I think people get scared about this. I was what's the difference? We chat, graffiti and I have a thing called copy coach I use that's an AI tool that I hear other guys say, I train my A.I. bottom, like, what are your fucking pokemon? What the hell is this? Like, what are you training bots and shit?00:09:25:21 - 00:09:46:04UnknownWhat is what's going on? So just help me understand this. So I think like the best way to put it, I think that's a great question too, because it's like understanding it's first half of the battle. You know, it's like I look back to like when the Internet first came out, there are like there were posts in the new York Times that said computer virus spreads to humans and people just didn't understand the Internet, which is why they weren't using it.00:09:46:10 - 00:10:01:23UnknownSo here's the best way I can say when it comes to like when people say training, I think about your chat as your employee. If you don't train your employee and then you just go in there and start asking on to do a bunch of things, it's not going to work. And you're like, Why aren't you doing this?00:10:01:23 - 00:10:22:02UnknownWhy aren't you doing that? So when it comes to Chad GPT, think about your Chad GBG as your lifelong personal employee that once you train it to do something once, you never have to train it to do something again because it just remembers over and over and over again. And it will only be as good as what you train it to do.00:10:22:04 - 00:10:51:20UnknownSo like to me, Chad GPT, you don't even think about it as A.I.. It is a lifelong employee that can just multiply what you are already doing. You can teach it how you speak and then it knows how you speak for the rest of your life. You can teach it about My ideal client profile is, you see, I'm getting a little bit more depth, but the overall view of this is just think about AI and chat CBT as your lifelong employee that will work for you.00:10:51:20 - 00:11:12:16Unknown24 seven That will never quit, that will never not show up, and that will remember every bit of training you ever give it. So that well said. Like I'm like, Great, that makes sense. Yeah, like I'm in my chat now. I just signed up for like the four, right? no, I'm okay. I'm getting all kinds of new gadgets here and all different types of things.00:11:12:16 - 00:11:31:23UnknownRight. But it asks you, like when you come in here, like, like basically describe yourself. And as I've been taking different training courses and I watch a lot of YouTube videos myself here, you basically, when you're training these, tell me if I have this correct, because I'm sure other people are doing this. When you're training this, I like how you said it's like your employee, but you could train it in your voice, like, Look how I talk right now.00:11:31:23 - 00:12:00:02UnknownNick I could tell is Midwest. You talk just like me. You guys are pretty. There's another fucking Midwest guy, bro. I love it, man. But yeah, we have a certain tonality that we speak with, right? And so a lot of the times when people are like, Well, how do I use chat for just creating like social content? And it doesn't sound like me, it sounds robotic, you're telling it, What do I need to have a lot of content or content, like read my Facebook profile, Can it read my Instagram profile or can it read like my podcast, for example, or my YouTube channel or stuff like that?00:12:00:04 - 00:12:15:04UnknownSo I mean, this is a little bit of a loaded question. Can it do those things? Yes, But here, like the first thing you have to do is like what it calls this customized chair in the bottom left. You'll see your name, you click it and it says Customize chair, and that's where you tell it who you are.00:12:15:08 - 00:12:32:18UnknownAnd how you want it to respond. So before you go in there and start training it, customize it so that way you at least you don't have to tell it every freaking time. I am a real estate agent in Cleveland, Ohio, and to start every project, if you put that in your custom at the beginning, it's like your profile.00:12:32:20 - 00:12:50:19UnknownYeah, it's like your profile. Exactly. So that way it's like every chat, it knows you're a real estate agent, it knows the area you're located. And like, unfortunately, what I tell agents too, is like, I wanted to sound like me. Yes, you wanted to sound like you, but you want it to sound better than you when it comes to marketing.00:12:51:00 - 00:13:14:19UnknownBecause I'll be honest, most real estate agents aren't copywriters. They didn't come into the business thinking they had to be copywriter. So I'm not blaming them. But there is an extent of, yes, you want it to sound like you. You can go into the bottom half of what I just said. The customized and then let's hear are some common phrases are like little things that I always say or like words that I use and then words I don't use because I thought this was funny.00:13:14:19 - 00:13:33:09UnknownSomeone's like, I don't use chatbots because I use the word post too often. I'm like, Well, that's what happens when you listen to fucking amateurs, because all you have to do is go in there and tell it's in your how do you respond? Never use the word boast. It's almost like negative words don't use these words. Exactly. So like there's things like that, but like, I wanted to sound like you.00:13:33:09 - 00:13:50:01UnknownIf you really are that dedicated to sounding like you, you can copy and paste your last 30 Facebook post, put it into there, and then there's a whole knowledge base for it of like I sound like. And then you can just go in there and say, Hey, write me five more posts just like this. It's not the way I would recommend.00:13:50:04 - 00:14:09:23UnknownYeah, if you want it to really just sound like you and write like you, that would be one way to start. And this is like one use of you guys. This is like just one use of air here, right? Just on how to write like you, like there's a so and in referral suite which you guys also will be checking out and buying very soon as I release it to the market.00:14:09:23 - 00:14:27:24UnknownIt's coming in really quick. It's really about us. I'm going to keep you guys in front of your database, so never going to forget about you. Great sales pitch and we have a direct mail system in there that can literally use AI to create a local based restaurant campaign. Literally, it has a postcard and it goes in there.00:14:27:24 - 00:14:43:21UnknownIt grabs a five burger places from your local market, puts them into the postcard customized it for the postcard, and then boom, sent that out. Traditionally, that would take us like God knows how long to create and be able to customize and scale out. We wouldn't be able to do it nationally. Now we can automate it. So it's also design elements.00:14:43:23 - 00:15:03:11UnknownAnd I do part of the same system I'm talking about is I started designing all of my images in and using canvas I tool because I'm get I'm getting the backgrounds from Canvas I tool, which is cool because there's nothing like it, right? So I can just tell it. And I know those images for our social library now standing out, right?00:15:03:11 - 00:15:21:04UnknownSo like you guys, I just start diving into this. I act like I'm trying not to talk. I have no idea what I'm doing. Right. But these are the cases that I'm seeing you can utilize this thing for. And guys like Nixon are just made it easy for you guys to understand it. So yeah, it's like you're a little employee.00:15:21:04 - 00:15:40:19UnknownI like that analogy. It's good. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. How long does it take to, like, train this employee? How much work is when you say train them? Like, do I have to like, do sit ups with it? Do I got to like, do bench presses? Like, just sounds like this sounds tiring. I mean, the reality is this this is where listening to pros and listening to amateurs makes a huge difference, right?00:15:40:19 - 00:15:55:05UnknownBecause amateurs don't even know what training is. They don't know how to do it. And then like, do like. Mike, if I ask you to dumb ass question, what kind of answer do you think I'm going to get? Dumb A dumb ass answer right? Like that's what it's going to be. This isn't like school where there's no such thing as a dumb question.00:15:55:11 - 00:16:19:20UnknownThere is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it for us. So like we have, we created a certified agent. We have a list of about 13 to 15 different prompts. You ask it before you start asking it for like for pose, for emails, for content, for this or that. So the first thing I always tell people is clearly identify your target audience because that's like you go to any marketing class, what do they say?00:16:19:20 - 00:16:45:11UnknownCreate your avatar before you start creating content, creating marketing, create your avatar. And this is the exciting part because when you actually create your avatar within there, it remembers it's in the certain chat that you create. So like, for example, when you create your create your ICP, your ideal client profile, you want, you don't want to just say buyers, first time homebuyers are great target audience, which LGBT is a first time millennial homebuyer or in Sarasota.00:16:45:15 - 00:16:59:21UnknownSo go deep, right? And then dude. And that's just the beginning. You're absolutely right. Going deep. Then you ask it What are the goals of a first millennial homebuyer and Sarasota, Florida? What are the fears? What are the motivations? What will happen if they do get a home? What will happen if they don't get home? One of my favorites.00:17:00:01 - 00:17:18:16UnknownWhat's the internal dialog of a first time millennial homebuyer in Sarasota? And then you ask it all these questions and then this chat is now trained on all of these things about your target audience, and then you start asking it, All right, now write me a five email sequence. Go into these people now write me three Facebook posts.00:17:18:18 - 00:17:37:07UnknownWhy? Because it knows the goals, fears, motivations, internal dialog, all of these things that's now trained on. So that's done. Doesn't sound very long. It doesn't do. That's the thing. You have to do that. No, go ahead. It's this reminds me of like Pokemon Summer because I my kids like that stuff. I just like they train the Pokemon, right?00:17:37:07 - 00:17:56:01UnknownAnd it becomes more powerful and smarter and then he like, become super Pokemon and it's like you started doing that with your employee here and then what you do over time is like, you go through that and then you start asking you to create these prompts and you're like, Well, I like it more like this and this. So now it starts getting trained, even how you like certain things done.00:17:56:03 - 00:18:13:08UnknownSo then the more you use it, the better trained it is. But it all starts at the beginning is how well are you identifying your target audience, How well have you trained, and on what their emotions actually are in the process? Because yes, you can teach chatbots to speak emotionally in your marketing. If you do it right. It's got to be trained.00:18:13:08 - 00:18:27:05UnknownBy the time it does it out the box, it's not going to come out and being like, it's just like your employee, like, you know, editors on staff, they don't start out like the way we want them they ever could edit. But it takes us about 60 to 90 days to train them, which is about 20 to 30 plus videos.00:18:27:05 - 00:18:46:15UnknownThey have to do and plus hours and all that. And then they go through this process and now they're they're great. Now they're hands off. No differently. Guys, when you're when you said train it, I'm like instantly thinking of like, my God, look at the market. I'm going into people who are missing credit card payments. I'm going after nodes, going after late payments and distressed right now.00:18:46:19 - 00:19:05:23UnknownRight. And that's one category of content. Then I'm going to go create another one for divorce. Then I'm gonna create another one for all these life scenarios because those are the only people moving right now, folks. Is that how you could basically create what I have to create like multiple chat beats per audience because there's so many different types.00:19:06:00 - 00:19:26:23UnknownYeah. So what you would do is like for these different ones you wouldn't want to create. It's the same chat GPT account, but you open up a chain so you just click new chats and then only change, only train that chat on this ideal client profile and then you go in depth on it and every time you want to go get more information, go back to that chat.00:19:27:00 - 00:19:43:24UnknownAnd it keeps and it keeps getting smarter and smarter overall. It's like right now it's almost like having a I mean, look at you have a YouTube channel, right? People get this concept, you have a YouTube channel, you put one video on, it's like, Great, this guy's awesome. Then you then there's a guy who's been on it for five years and he's got thousands of users like, Wow, this guy's legit.00:19:44:01 - 00:20:01:20UnknownSame concept, right? Yeah. So, so it's the same concept. There's actually something brand new that came out January 12th that is literally going to put about 80% of AI startups out of business. On Chad GPT. They came out with Chat Store. So if you see now you said you just upgraded to four, right? So you did the pro.00:20:01:20 - 00:20:20:06UnknownYeah I'm in there right now. If you look on the left you'll see explore GPT TS Right. Yep. So you click on that and there's literally Canva AI built into Chad. GPT Now there is 11 labs which is the ones with this as Yeah, wow, that's built in there. You can really just go in there, think about it like Netflix for AI.00:20:20:11 - 00:20:36:23UnknownSo all these AI startup companies that were really transparency on the back end, right? It was like Scooby-Doo, you take the mask off. Well, it was strategy beat the whole time. You can literally go in there and just type in real estate and you'll see a bunch of real estate like trained, ready to go, Chat's ready to go.00:20:37:02 - 00:20:56:12UnknownOne of hours in there, I'll do a plug. this is my listing, buddy. Creates all your listing descriptions, create your marketing materials for your listing, creates all your openings, it creates it right here. Boom. And that what is saving agents hours every single day. Here is another way that we utilize this feature. So, look, I'm not the YouTube guy.00:20:56:17 - 00:21:15:08UnknownThat's just not been my jam. But of course, a lot of our clients that want to learn about it is like, I want to learn at YouTube. Here's what we did. We bought a lot of these courses that are out there are these YouTube courses that are out there, right? So this is where it's like, Dude is great because how creative can you be with using it?00:21:15:10 - 00:21:37:00UnknownWe bought a lot of these courses. We transcribe the courses and then with the custom GPT, we put all these courses is a knowledge base behind it and then you just go in and you can ask questions and then it's like, what are the top ten headlines? It reads all these courses that these people came out with, say, here are the headlines for this target audience.00:21:37:02 - 00:21:53:21UnknownSo now we have a bot in there which is only available to our students, but it's YouTube AI. So it's like, look, I might not know this, but I use the best people I know as a knowledge base, and instead of watching a 510 hour course and trying to think about how to do it, chatbots is already trained how to do it.00:21:53:23 - 00:22:10:24UnknownSee? Like if so, let me tell tell me if this is a good or bad idea. This sounds like a really good idea, but tell me using. Yeah, we made this just created 3 million our business idea. If I'm a brokerage, why not creating a hyperlocal version for a brokerage and just owning that and then send that to my agent?00:22:10:24 - 00:22:31:24UnknownI'm talking about become like a local celebrity, local digital mayor concept, right? Where they just they're literally like a tour guide. Like, you just like that would just be so awesome to have on a site. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that just like, makes a whole lot of sense. It's almost like, yeah, I mean, I and we're probably only scratching like, what, Like 5% of what the capabilities are.00:22:31:24 - 00:22:47:21UnknownThis this is so early on, right? Even 5%. And it's just amazing how it's going to continue to evolve in like what I think people need to understand is the more it evolves in, the more in-depth it gets as it goes, the harder it's going to be to just jump into it. And you might say like, that's that.00:22:47:21 - 00:23:03:24UnknownLike it's not the case. But I paint this picture for some people. I was just in the Apple store. Mike I was an Apple store, and I don't know if you've seen this, but there's like there's a section where it's old people sitting around a desk and there's this guy saying, All right, now open up your email. Here's how you open it.00:23:04:02 - 00:23:24:08UnknownAnd he's giving the computer lesson like how to use the Internet and open up your email. We have a lot of clients like that that is going to be people in the next five years when it comes to A.I., if they don't, like, start just trying to learn the basics, because right now it's easy. You get in there, you learn the basic, you learn how it works, you know how things are evolving.00:23:24:11 - 00:23:41:11UnknownAnd as it evolves, you're gonna be able to pick up and keep up easier. But if you wait a couple of years and it's evolves into, well, how does this really work? Well, now let's go back to the bit like there's a huge learning curve that will come. It's the perfect time to get into it and start learning the basics and how it works.00:23:41:13 - 00:24:00:09UnknownYeah, I mean, I just clicked on your like I'm in his, my in my listing buddy. Like, this is pretty cool. I'm going to throw you a little plug below. You type in here like he's got like an ace, like a type in the career listing description. Create all marketing from write listing, create marketing for just sold or create my marketing for my open house.00:24:00:09 - 00:24:20:04UnknownSo basically, it sounds like you have a system behind each one of these four prompts. You wanted to do four things for my listing buddy, and once I tell it, if I type in here, describe my four bedroom, three and a half bath ocean view, front house with a three car garage, I want you to put a maserati in the front, put a pool in the back, make sure that fucker has a hot tub attached to it.00:24:20:04 - 00:24:52:24UnknownAnd I want the world's best looking, you know, outdoor kitchen like this is going to come up with know it's not going to come up with the images. I mean, I'm reversing. I mean, I'm sorry you're describing. That's my I'm writing the listing description. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So essentially, like, what we tell people is you just take all the, all the things you put into the MLS, like all the facts and features and then you put it in there for create my listing description and then boom, it creates your listing description and it creates like 2000 characters or less, or that you put in the MLS and then you copy and paste that listing description00:24:53:01 - 00:25:12:06Unknownand then you just paste it in to create all my marketing for my listing. And then it's trained right to Facebook, post to Instagram post with hashtags, a YouTube video script with keywords, headline and description, two emails inviting buyers and a Facebook ad copy. And it's trained on like good copy on the back. And a lot of the copywriting that we put on the back end.00:25:12:08 - 00:25:35:07UnknownThen the same thing with your open house, you copy and paste your listing description and just say Open House is next Thursday at 2 p.m. and it writes same thing like all your materials for it to awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean I could see the amount of time even we had a need in our company now where we're trying to, you know, for, for our content distribution.00:25:35:07 - 00:25:52:22UnknownWe want to distribute our content for our clients in more places. So we want to you, we want to take our videos and upload them both short form and long form to that LinkedIn and all their social profiles. And our problem we're having right now is that every time if you try to log into someone's social profile, you're gonna get like a security check and then you have to like, log in and then they have to tell you where you're at.00:25:52:22 - 00:26:17:16UnknownSo like, it's literally impossible to try to post content on behalf of people when you're in video or anything right now. Right. Or use a social tool. So we're testing it with this process because it bypasses all of that. And just short answer, does that work? Would which work if I'm just content distribution? Just so if I wanted to streamline all my content distribution, I, I can't say confidently yes or no.00:26:17:16 - 00:26:35:12UnknownWe haven't tried that yet because like the personal profile you say, like posting on the personal profiles on the business pages, I want to take like business pages so it's not as personable, it's just more business, you know, like, yeah, I mean, hello, Roofie. That's the one that we recommend for people to use because it'll even like Roofie is the name of it.00:26:35:14 - 00:27:01:03UnknownHello, Wolfie. I said, Hello, Roofie. I'm like, That is like all these platforms. They did it. It has like 15 different platforms that you can post from at once. You know, it does business right for you. And then even if it's your personal you can like for your clients, you can set them up on the account and then schedule their personal and for them it'll just pop up every day like, this is what they want us to do, you know?00:27:01:03 - 00:27:18:09UnknownAnd that's why we're trying it. That's what we're trying to solve for. And I was like, Okay, how do we figure this out? Because it's not working this way. And it it's this sounds, it's cheaper, it's more economical, you know, scale like, hello. Yeah, it's well, and that's what people don't understand too. It's like, man, So we were marketing.00:27:18:09 - 00:27:35:13UnknownLike, we are marketing, we're still marketing branding company, but now we specialize in I Why? Because our asses, we're going out of business. If we didn't make the change because I look all the things that we were doing for clients that they pay us thousands a month to do. Like now I can just train them. Well, what was the first business here?00:27:35:15 - 00:27:52:01UnknownSo. Well, my brother you got before you got into the the AIDS stuff. Because what happened prior? Not then. Tell me about that, because that's going to have some relevance to some of these realtors. Yeah. So for like, for the last five years, my brother and I, like, we traveled really the country learning from a lot of the top agents how they do doing their marketing and branding.00:27:52:07 - 00:28:14:13UnknownAnd then from there we launched a lot of different like services and products like as far as like creating your whole online platform, like your interview platform, how to create your podcast and do these things, how to create all your entire branding and marketing materials for social media. Now, we got into shorts before a lot of people going into shorts, creating shorts for people on how to repurpose your content that you've already created.00:28:14:15 - 00:28:30:13UnknownAnd then what we did is we actually had a seven bedroom content house in Orlando, Florida. We lived in three of the bedrooms, had a full time cameraman, and my myself and my brother and clients would fly in from all over the country. They would stay at our apartment downtown, come to our house and shoot 30 days worth of content in one day.00:28:30:15 - 00:28:49:05UnknownBut we would sit there and we'd be like, All right, We would go to the whiteboard. Who is your ideal client profile? Who are we making content for? And then we would write it down and then we would say, What are your goals? And we would sit there for almost half of the day and come up with that person's goals, their fears, and try and get inside of their mind about all of these things.00:28:49:07 - 00:29:05:16UnknownAnd then we would sit down and shoot all the content with them. Once we knew that and then we would go from there. Then this is where I had a full team of copywriters, graphic designers, video editors on the back end, because then we would take their videos, transcribe them, send it to our copywriters, and they would write emails that would go out.00:29:05:19 - 00:29:23:08UnknownThen they were a blog post that would go out. Then they were right Facebook posts and I was like, Well, that's done in about 3 minutes now using Chatbot. Yeah. And then we would send it to our video editors and then they would. We had one person's job on our staff was to watch people's videos and say from 2 minutes, 2 seconds to 2 minutes, 50 seconds, clip it.00:29:23:10 - 00:29:39:22UnknownThen they would send it to the Clipper, then they would send it to the subtitle person. Then they would send it to the copy person who would put the headlines on it. That video is now done using Opus. It does all that for you within about 3 seconds. So I was like, Man, we are literally going to go out of business if we don't make this shift.00:29:39:24 - 00:29:59:13UnknownYep, yep. Let's what let's go on to just for realtors in general. Like what? Let's look at the applicable users. I like everyone. What do they need to be using? Like at the bare minimum? Like where do you get started with? And then you're in real estate. Here's what you have to be doing right now. Have bare metal.00:29:59:15 - 00:30:21:16UnknownChad is the bare minimum. Chad You you get the pro version and start exploring the the custom teams. Because from there, like I said, 80% of those startups that that they've been seen other time are now built into Chad. So get into there and then just start getting comfortable with how to train your chad. GPG I think that's almost a bare minimum.00:30:21:18 - 00:30:42:23UnknownThe other tools that we say because we go deep on five, so I guess I'll go through those five. The next one which I love personally is called Hey Jenn, why? And so you literally create a video duplicate of yourself. It looks like you and it sounds like you. So we have real estate agents. They take their market updates and then put it in the.00:30:42:23 - 00:31:01:03UnknownHey Jenn, you have a market update video of you saying it. You take your listing videos, pictures behind it, your listing description, make your market update. Are your listing video or I thought this was creative. One of the agents did this. They went out and they got happy birthday balloons and a hat. They created an agent avatar and they said Happy birthday videos to every one of their clients.00:31:01:03 - 00:31:28:00UnknownNow I'm open top. God, that's dope. Open stop Pro opus just creates shorts for you or reels at scale. You upload your 50 minute video, gives you ten shorts within seconds, so pick the good sound clips out of it. It takes like. So yeah it is determined that's always been that's the hardest part is getting like a given this show like finding someone to come to this show and just take There's a lot of nuggets we've already had here, probably a lot of good repurpose content.00:31:28:02 - 00:31:48:12UnknownHow does does it know that the grab the nuggets right here. Yeah great question. So it's actually trained based on the algorithm and what's online to look through your video, find the highest engaging points in the video, and then it even gives you an engagement score on the side and it tell you what you can do better. Or if you want to like make more engaging content.00:31:48:16 - 00:32:19:02UnknownSo you have like an engagement score on the side, a description for you, the subtitles on there, you can turn on and off B-roll, so I'll add B-roll to your videos. So that way, like you know how media works from there, I did one of my personal favorites called Merlin Get Merlin. Diane So this one, it follows me around to any website that I go to and like, let's say I Google something, Merlin's on the side and it reads the top like five or ten links and gives me the summary from all of the links of things.00:32:19:02 - 00:32:34:03UnknownI just Google. I can go to any landing page and it gives me the summary of the entire landing page and create other copy for me. It responds to emails for me. So a little it reads the emails and I could just say, Hey, let them down nicely, but say I'm not interested. And it responds in a very nice way.00:32:34:08 - 00:32:53:22UnknownOr you can counter and offer and it'll counter each one of the points and then give you the new price. So that's what we use there. And the last one was virtual ad. I think that was just super simple stage homes virtually. And then like if you're looking for buyers, you can let show them a home and be like, how would you like how would you like to design this home?00:32:53:22 - 00:33:11:20UnknownSo you can sit there and design homes with buyers to see how interested they really are in it. That's cool. Yeah. And a lot of this too is like just you guys imagine like the if you're communicating this way, imagine a brand that's been built on a side like because or people will hire you for like how you're doing business, not one.00:33:11:22 - 00:33:26:00UnknownLike you're going up against a bunch of blue hair, gray haired agents and I'm the blue hairs, right? Yeah. And they're traditional, right? So a lot of agents are the newer agents has this question all the time, How am I going to break into this business? Well, there you go, dude. You start doing it differently than all the old school people.00:33:26:00 - 00:33:44:03UnknownRemember, the average age of realtors, I think was last I checked, was 54 or 56 and a half years old. Yeah, I'm 43 and I'm behind the eight ball. Just me. I'm just no dig to you guys, the 50 year old man. But yeah, I'm sure you're much like I am. Right? And then that sense and the young bucks come ready right around here.00:33:44:03 - 00:34:13:23UnknownThose young whippersnappers and those. Those young bucks. All right. But that's what happens. Called innovation innovation, folks. And and nobody is going remember in real estate, whether you want them in or not, your commodity or service service based business. And that service based business is only as has longevity until the next recipe comes out, the next best tasting food or the next best thing or the next best offer, the next best version.00:34:14:00 - 00:34:32:19UnknownCarvana is going through that right now and in the space, but for some weird reason, the stock's going through the roof. But it's I have been to one of these conspiracy theory things that's a lot of the podcast, but you know, I mean, like this is people remember how you do things right so you could I'm just talking about how you market this and have it come through.00:34:32:19 - 00:34:53:08UnknownLike you could just literally say I just used AI to do my listing packet, right? And then someone's going to see that. Yeah. And they're not going to think you're taking a shortcut. They're going to think, Holy shit, this person is advancing, gets marketing. Yeah, it's like that's, that's part of like what we're teaching agents how to do tools like that as certified agent program.00:34:53:10 - 00:35:13:08UnknownPart of it is the AI listing advantage, right? Yeah. So it's how you market and packaged things 200%. Use it on the back end. We have agents sitting down on the listing appointment on the back end of it. We carve out 10 minutes. There's a video sharing how important AI is and then you sit down with them using the tools that we give you and you show them, You know what?00:35:13:08 - 00:35:29:02UnknownI'm going to show you how out market your house using act now how I did other homes and you sit there with them and just click enter a couple of times based on the programs you created and it creates it all them right in front of their eyes and they're like, You know, other agents spend hours, days or even weeks figuring out how to market your property.00:35:29:08 - 00:35:50:05UnknownI did it for you right here so I can spend all my time selling your home and notes. I'm trying to figure out how to market. Yeah, right. I'd rather spend time selling your house and preparing to market it. Exactly. Makes a lot of sense. I do. Since 2014, when we started to show we had the initial message for this show was don't be an agent, be a marketer.00:35:50:07 - 00:36:09:09UnknownYeah. And back down. It was like was a 24th back down. It was like we're talking about bro, like Rooster and Rooster. Now you see people are talking about database and brand and personal brand and content creation and this stuff. All started happening and this is it. This is the next thing to say. I movement. I'm a fan.00:36:09:09 - 00:36:30:09UnknownI like it. What other thoughts? Any other closing thought you want to give people? What else could we use this for? For George? Yeah. You know, I think it's just really understanding what's happening here that you know, on social media through commercials and things that we see, we almost get like immune to big things that are actually happening in the world because every commercial is the next best thing.00:36:30:14 - 00:36:57:02UnknownThis is advancing technology and it's like a Roomba or it's like something that's just like a squeegee. And the latest technology is out. This is artificial intelligence getting introduced to the world. This is the next advancement in technology to human history that is happening right now. And the next five years, there will be some agencies say that was the year that everything changed for me because they jumped on to this and they understood what was happening.00:36:57:06 - 00:37:13:01UnknownAnd then there was going to be everybody else. And years have to decide. It's not a question of if you have to learn this, it's a question of when you choose to, because you're either going to choose to get into an hour, be forced to do it later. So you just had to make it's a business decision. Would you rather wait your app?00:37:13:01 - 00:37:31:22UnknownGo ahead. Would you create I mean, is this as big as like the Internet? It's bigger than the Internet. Yeah, I think so. Literally bigger than the Internet. And, you know, it's just taking a look at it and saying, when are you going to choose to get involved in it? This is changing the world. The biggest companies in the world are spending billions of dollars to get ahead of this thing.00:37:32:01 - 00:37:59:20UnknownThey're stopping everything they're doing and focusing on A.I. real estate agents. It should be no different. So if you think this is a passing fad, if you're one of the people who are the amateurs who tried it and then said it didn't work, remember this? There were millions of people who gave up on the internet when it first came out in the New Times was calling it a passing fad, which what are you going to choose to do yet stalled.00:37:59:22 - 00:38:15:24UnknownSo the guy over here in the Midwest. Yeah, I mean, that's it. I mean, sad. It's just it's here, guys. Whether you embrace it or not, it's up to you. But if you're sitting there twiddling your thumbs, wondering how you're going to get out ahead because there's no houses to sell the wall, what the people pay you for your skill set.00:38:15:24 - 00:38:32:13UnknownThat's really it. Yeah. And while yeah, you might not be selling a bunch of homes right now or maybe you are, I don't know, but you got to sharpen your skills. The reason why I'm taking courses, I've taken two courses this month. Yeah, I'm sharpen skills like I'm going out and I want more, you know, So it's like, this is the next thing I'm on.00:38:32:13 - 00:38:54:11UnknownI'm probably buy your shit, check all that out. But still, it's because you have to learn this stuff. You guys, you just have to put your money where your mouth is and your broker can do it for you. Yep. You know, if you're one of these mega brokers, I could do it for you either. It doesn't matter. You are the CEO, CFO, CMO and everything and everything and the buck stops with you.00:38:54:13 - 00:39:13:22UnknownNeck watched people watch you. Where can they learn more about you? Yeah, so they could just go to cram I everything they need to know about myself. My company is that crammed I we started the Chrome Institute of Artificial Intelligence. We created the world's very first as certified agent and we dropping certified agent 2.0 actually this week, tomorrow.00:39:13:24 - 00:39:38:15UnknownSo we're dropping that tomorrow. Why? Because we spent the last year with agents every single week figuring out more about how they're using AI, what's actually working to get them listings. We're about to launch 2.0 after an entire year of studying with all these agents. Awesome. Go check out his stuff, guys. Appreciate you guys. Let's another app. So the Real Estate Marketing Dude podcast visit our software referral suite Ecom re first FT.com just like the sweet candy, the WPT.00:39:38:17 - 00:39:54:24UnknownWe keep you in front your database and I think I want to put next course in there as well, because this is some good shit. I like it, man. Congrats and keep it up. All this guy files social profiles. Guys. I will see you guys next week. Bye. Thank you for watching. Another episode of the Real Estate Marketing Do podcast.00:39:54:24 - 00:40:15:19UnknownIf you need help with video or finding out what your brand is. Visit our website at WW dot Real Estate Marketing do dot com. We make branding and video content creation simple and do everything for you. So if you have any additional questions, visit the site, download the training and then schedule time to speak with the dude and get you rolling in your local marketplace.00:40:15:24 - 00:40:18:18UnknownThanks for watching Another episode of the podcast. We'll see you next time.

I can't tell you how many times I've been disappointed when I hear about a musician who I want to check out, and they only have social media. Most don't know how to use their socials very well, and even when they do, I don't find everything I need to know about them. How much success have you had with your music that can be directly attributable to your social media? Yep, that's what I thought — practically none. However, when I Google a musician, and the first thing I see at the top of the page is something like XYZMusician.com, I click and usually learn everything I need to know: What their story is, what their music sounds like, when and where their gigs are, what their videos look like if they have an EPK if they sell merch, do they have a Patreon, what their career path looks like, and how to contact him or her. Oh yeah, and links to all of their social media.

Matthew Rosenblum, a geographer by training, shares his journey from PhD candidate to pancreatic cancer patient. He discusses the interplay of space, time, and identity, particularly in relation to his Jewish background and cancer diagnosis. Matthew shares his diagnosis and treatment experience candidly with his unique sense of humor.  While addressing the realities of living with terminal cancer aren't often funny, Matthew will keep you laughing during this episode that will educate and inspire. Key Highlights: The intersections of identity, including being Jewish and BRCA2 positive. The importance of advocating for yourself with your care team. How the emotional and physical toll of living with terminal cancer can still bring moments of resilience and humor. About our guest: Matthew Rosenblum is a pancreatic cancer survivor and BRCA-2 previvor based in metro Detroit with his loving partner, Natalie, and their 6 year-old pug, Monique. Trained as an academic geographer at Florida State University and the University of Kentucky - and with 18 months of remission under his belt - Matthew has pivoted career trajectories to cancer advocacy. He is currently doing freelance writing in the nonprofit world while he looks for a more permanent position in the cancer space. As he searches for meaningful work, Matthew has been preparing a memoir covering his wild ride with metastatic pancreatic cancer. Key Moments: 18 minutes: On intersecting identities. “I think it's like something my oncologist said to me very casually after they discovered the tumor on my pancreas and throughout my gut. He said, ‘Your sister has a BRCA2 mutation and your mom died? Yeah, you're Jewish?' Yes, probably. I wasn't offended or anything like that. It's just there is a very clear connection historically between narratives of cancer and Jewish identity. 34 minutes: On advocating for himself. “I think it's a product of my personality, and I think it's also a way I've found to advocate for myself effectively, that sometimes doctors are not used to being spoken to in a certain way, and if you are willing to get up in their grill a little bit, oftentimes you can get what you want, or you can come to some kind of understanding. My oncologist is the Chief of Oncology at a major cancer research institute – he's the boss. And sometimes that colors people's judgment. So sometimes if you shake them a little bit, you might not steer the ship, but you can be involved in the direction, right? You're controlling the trajectory as a partner, at least.” 50 minutes: Finding humor in dark moments. “I got an automatic notification with the rest of my results on the MyChart app and it used the word adenocarcinoma. And I didn't know that word. But I knew enough that I knew it wasn't good because cancer words, they all sound like they could be the bad guy in Star Wars, right? Like sarcoma. Honestly, are the people who write Star Wars, are they just stealing cancer words? Who's to say? In any case, I flipped out because I Google adenocarcinoma, and it's not good.” -- Visit the Manta Cares website  Disclaimer: This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast is at the user's own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard, or delay in obtaining, medical advice for any medical condition they may have, and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/manta-cares/support

Episode 69: Find Balance as a Mom with a Demanding Career with Dr. Bonnie Koo   Join Dr. Prianca Naik on the Empowering Working Moms Podcast! In this episode, she and her special guest Dr. Bonnie Koo discuss various topics ranging from how important it is to take care of your mental health to how doing so creates a positive model of behavior for your kids. Dr. Naik and Dr. Koo invite you to learn about investing time into yourself in order to build a life you don't need a vacation from.   In this episode, you will learn: Take time for yourself: This gives you time, space, and a breather to get clarity in what you want to do with your life. Get coached: Dr. Bonnie emphasizes the importance of seeking coaching, therapy, or other forms of support for your mental and emotional health. Coaching can help you understand how your thoughts create your feelings and how to navigate life's challenges. Take Solo Trips: Taking solo trips or spending time alone can be rejuvenating. Whether it's a weekend getaway or a spa resort experience, dedicating time to yourself allows for reflection and self-discovery.  Start with a dinner if that's too daunting. Focus on Emotional Regulation: Dr. Bonnie also highlights the significance of focusing on emotional regulation, especially for parents. Teaching children how to handle their emotions and modeling healthy emotional regulation is vital for their growth.   To end burnout and exhaustion and get your peace of mind back, check out her free masterclass on 4 steps to overcome burnout, get rid of overwhelm, and get your peace of mind back. https://program.stresscleansemd.com/4-secrets-to-living-a-life-you-ll-love-podcast   If you want to work with Coach Prianca Naik, MD, go to www.priancanaikmdcoaching.as.me to book a 30-minute consultation call.   Follow Dr. Prianca on social media:   https://www.facebook.com/prianca.naik   https://www.instagram.com/doctorprianca   https://www.linkedin.com/in/prianca-naik-md-0524a196/   Join her FREE Facebook group:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/646992382603860   Follow Dr. Bonnie Koo on social media:   Instagram: https://instagram.com/wealthymommd or @wealthymommd   Facebook: https://facebook.com/wealthymommd   Website: https://wealthymommd.com     [FULL TRANSCRIPTION:]   You're listening to the empowering working moms podcast episode number 69. Today I am so excited to have a special guest coming to us on this podcast, Dr. Bonnie Koo. She is a master certified life coach, physician, and founder of Wealthy Mom, MD.   She's a money coach for women physicians, and a proud graduate of Barnard College and Columbia University's College of Physicians and Surgeons. She is the host of the WealthyMomMD podcast and author of Defining Wealth for Women: Peace, Purpose, and Plenty of Cash. She currently resides in northern jersey with her family. So let's get to it and dive in.   All right, I am so excited today because I have a very, very special guest. Her name is Dr. Bonnie Koo. She was actually a coach of mine, and I'm thrilled to have her here. She's been doing amazing things and really thinking outside the box, which is what I want to dive into today. So welcome, Bonnie. Hey, there. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, it's great to have you on. So I wanted to ask you, I know you're a dermatologist by trade, what really led you to becoming a coach?   Yeah. So I'm just laughing because like, it was not what I was expecting. I think that's the story for a lot of us. It's not like we were like, let's go to medical school or whatever career and then let's just change your mind a few years into it, right? Like, I don't think any of us had that goal. And so, I mean, the short story is that I was learning about money just for myself, because I realized I had no idea what I was doing. And then I was in a Facebook group of other physicians and it was for money, specifically. Just a community group where people were helping each other out.   And then I noticed that I was answering all the questions, and then people started tagging me, this was just fun for me. And then someone was like, why don't you start a blog? And so I did. And then it just went on from there. And then I just started getting asked to speak. And then I started working with a coach because to me, this was just a hobby. And then eventually, I got to the point where I had to either let it go, because I just had my son who's now six or make it a business, although there's obviously a lot of options in between, but those were the two options in my head.   And then at some point, I just decided, it wasn't like there was a specific reason if I'm perfectly honest, I was like, why not? The worst that can happen is that it fails and I'm still a doctor. Yeah, being a physician is not a bad fallback career, I suppose. I'm sure people are thinking that. Okay. So the personal development is the hobby, right? Which leads you to something that you're really enjoying, and then you make a decision to monetize it.   So what I think is really remarkable here, and why I really wanted to have you on the podcast is what gave you the courage to step out of that box, because there is pretty much, with or without people acknowledging it, there is kind of a box that physicians are put into or whatever box you might be in, in your culture, and just having the guts to step outside of that not really knowing what comes next.   Yeah, that's a great question. I think for me, I started meeting other people doing similar things. And so there's a conference called fincon, it's like in the fall of every year, it's probably like, happening this week or last week. And it's where all the people in the finance media world come together. And so I started to just meet other people who are doing this, including other doctors, there were a few other doctors. So I think just having that community, it was small, but just other people doing it. So like, I wasn't the only like weird and crazy person doing this. I think that was helpful.   And then honestly, working with a coach, like she helped me navigate the decision. And then once I decided to do a business, she helped me figure out what I could or couldn't do. And she also pointed out some things that maybe I wasn't thinking of, she's like, you have basically been building an audience for the past two years, not like on purpose, but just because I've been just helping people. And so she was like, you're in the perfect position to monetize it, if you want. And then I was like, okay. So it's interesting.   And then I took all these courses on how to learn how to run a business, because I didn't have any business skills. And so why would I Google it myself? I feel like a lot of people do this. I'm like, why would I Google it like people already know how to do this. I'm just gonna learn from them. I don't know if I'd describe it as courage. I think again, it's like being surrounded by these people. So it was almost like normalized that you can do this.   But what's really fascinating in life in general, is that a lot of us think that, especially physicians, you go to college, you go to med school, you pick a speciality, you go into residency, maybe fellowship, and then you work and then it's going to be a steady income, and all the steps are there.   So it feels so certain, even though you do have to pass the boards and do a lot of steps along the way. So it isn't actually certain but this false sense of certainty that we have in our careers, as opposed to being an entrepreneur, which just by nature is much more shaky, and it's more obvious that step A is the opposite of certainty. Exactly right.   So it's a lot of trial and error or failing forward or any of those concepts. So that is why I bring up the courage piece. Where of course, stepping into the unknown pretty much we're doing that all the time. We have no control over what the future holds.   Right, but at the same time doing something that's so different from what you're used to, or what you've been taught, or what you thought your life was going to be, and really just going for it, I think is really inspiring for people like, and that's why I say courage because for many people staying in the status quo, no matter how boring or dissatisfying or even malignant and might be, they'll stay there because they're terrified of the change. So yeah, can you relate to any of that, or can you elaborate on?   Yeah, well, here's a few things that I didn't mention. So two things is I had a different career before medical school, I was a non traditional student, I worked at Morgan Stanley, not in finance, but I worked in IT. And so I didn't have this like identity of just being a student. So I think that's part of it. The second thing is right after college, I did some pretty intense personal development work. And so I say that because I think I was already sort of more open minded that things can change, and that people do this, if that makes sense. Like, I'd forgotten about it. And I feel like I regressed during medical training.   But I think that's also why when I started working with my first coach, it was just really clear to me like, oh, yeah, remember this work, and just how fun it is to always be growing. Because I think what happens is, whatever career you choose, you become stagnant at some point, right? Because like in med school, it's like, we're learning all these new things, and you have residency, you're learning all these new things. And the first year or two of being attending is also exciting, right? And I feel like a lot of doctors get bored after like, three to five years, sometimes earlier.   Well, there's nowhere to go. The beauty of medicine is it is a steady job. People will always need doctors. But at the same time, there's not that much upward growth, like you're a doctor and you're doing the same thing more or less, unless let's say you're managing your practice, and maybe you work less, or maybe you become an entrepreneur on the side, but just straight being a doctor, you're going to do the same thing in your 10th year that you're doing in your first or second year. And that, I agree, like you kind of just hit like a plateau there and you aren't really growing in your career, per se.   Yeah. And I think that's when a lot of people get. They talk about the seven year itch and marriage, but I feel like it's more like a three to five year itch in medicine. I think people look around and are like, oh, is this it? Because I think we all thought like once we became attendings that we would live happily ever after, basically. And then we learned that's not a thing, and then we're really disappointed.   Correct. And then the beauty is you have the steady income. And sometimes you can, well that's the work that you do, which feel free to talk about that. Like so, you have the money. And then what do you do with it? You have the luxury of maybe making your money work for you? Yeah, I mean, so I coach people on money. But what I realized after doing this for some time is it's not just about the money because you can have all the money in the world. But if you're an unhappy person, it doesn't matter. Right, you can take nicer vacations and eat at Michelin star restaurants, I guess, right?   So I really try to teach my clients money is a tool to help you do things, it is very useful, obviously. But also money is not going to make you happy. And because we all know that technically, but we really think we'll be happier with money, like certain things are possible. And certain things are more fun.   Like I love traveling first class, like I definitely am happier while flying first class, right? Like, there's no doubt about that. But those experiences alone aren't going to make my life rich and fulfilled. So I really try to help my clients do a little bit of both. And that's mainly from like the coaching because once you get coached on one area of your life, it kind of filters into other areas of your life.   I was laughing about the first class business class flying, laughing silently, but what that brought up for me was that those kinds of experiences are transient. Right? So money might buy you that but that comes and it goes but a lack of money, I think also can create a lot of stress that will make you unhappy.   Yeah. Well, so I don't know exactly who your listeners are. Are they mostly physicians or high income women?   It's pretty much career driven, high achieving, working moms.   I mean, pretty much everyone listening is not going to struggle with basic needs that money provides, right. And so I'm sure you've heard of a study that over a certain amount of money adjusted for where you live doesn't increase happiness, right? Obviously, if you don't have money to buy food, being able to buy food is definitely going to increase. It's not even happiness. It's like, just be not worrying about those primal things you need to live right. But yeah, after a certain amount of money, like it doesn't do as much as we think except for flying first class.   And the fancy meals, which by the way, I feel like the fancy meals that are curated and they look beautiful on the plate. I always leave those places hungry, wanting a piece of pizza. Like if you've ever been to 11 Madison Park, or you know they do these, well, that's a bajillion courses. But if you go do like a lesser version of that, like three courses, of like bite sized food, and then I'm leaving craving more, having spent how much money.   It's funny. I just went to France a few months ago, Paris specifically and I don't think I enjoy fancy food as much as I used to. To me it was like it's about the food. It's also the experience and I'm not sure if I enjoyed it. Maybe I'm just getting older and I'm just not used to going out as much as I used to. But basically what I'm saying is I don't need to go to a fancy two or three Michelin star restaurant, they tend to be kind of stuffy anyway, you know. And I feel like you know, a bit more of a modern hip restaurant is more my style now.   I agree. During COVID, when I didn't go to restaurants, after people started emerging, I remember being really appreciative of service. But now I'm at a point where I think most of like the fancy meals, it's the same thing like every single time. So it does start to lose its novelty. And then you're kind of just looking for the quality of food, rather than the fanfare of it all. So something I wanted to also ask you is, what do you think would be useful for the exhausted burnt out professional moms, in terms of if they're on the precipice of making a change? What advice would you give them?   Wow, there's so much. Well, I think the first thing is to take care of yourself, right? Because all those things you described is mostly a result of just not prioritizing themselves. So I think there's a lot of work in that, right. And women, we're basically socialized to be caretakers. And even if you don't have kids, that extends to just the people around you, maybe your parents, etc, right?   Maybe in your culture, too. But in my culture, or a lot of other cultures, like you want to have a daughter because a daughter takes care of you, the sons don't. Right, have you heard that before? Yes, of course, in general, cultures, letting men walk away scot free from so many things that they could actually be contributing to including caring for your parents. Right?   Yeah. So I think there's a lot of that. And I think it's even way more exacerbated if you're a parent, because you're just giving so much to your kids. And that has a toll on you. Because then I see a lot of women, they feel like they don't even know who they are anymore. Because they've just been giving, giving, giving. And then obviously, depending on your work circumstances, and whether you've gone through a divorce, there's obviously a lot of things that can cause stress. And so I would say number one is really take care of yourself.   I actually taught a lot of my clients be willing to go part time and work less. But of course, they're always like, Well, what about money, right? They don't want to make less money. I was like, listen, money circumstances are temporary. And part of me is like, you might need to go part time or even take a sabbatical in order to a) recoup.   And then what if that's necessary to actually make more money? That's something people don't consider, because they're so focused on like, well, if I work part time, that means I make less money. In the short term, yes. But then the thing is, you don't have headspace to think about things or be creative, or to even think about having a side gig when you're burned at both ends, you know?   Absolutely. So I'm really intrigued by that. I love that concept that you're mentioning, what's the strategy behind that? Like, how do you coach your clients who you're saying, hey, maybe go part time, maybe take a sabbatical? What does that look like in reality? And how are you helping women to actually do this? Because that sounds really scary. And I'm sure many women are listening to this thinking, yeah, that's great and everything, but no, thanks. You know, they're all freaked out.   Yeah. So part of it is looking at their money to see what's going on. The thing is, most of my clients aren't going to go broke. Like when I say go broke, like, they're not going to not be able to feed their kids or their family if they take some time off. Most of them will just go part. I mean, it's all different. To be honest, the thing is, even when you're doing a sabbatical, there are so many options to make money. Like you can just do like a per diem or locums. Right, I think you do something like that.   So it's not like you turn the money faucet completely off. But it's like, how can we create more space and time and for some people, it's like literally just working one less day a week at their current job or, again, as physicians, there are a lot of options, expert witness work, etc. So it's not like you have to completely turn off the money income, but then it's also getting their money in order. Because the goal is to be in a position where if your job income stops, there shouldn't be a catastrophe in a month or two, right?   Yes, exactly. It's more, I think, just the idea of slowing down the incoming and what am I doing about the outgoing, that people just kind of freeze and have a fight or flight moment during that conversation.   I think they also have to realize that what they're doing now is completely unsustainable. If you think about the decrease in income being temporary, you could think of that as like the investment in yourself to get better, and to build a life where you're not going to need a vacation from right.   Yeah, we need time and space to actually create and have thoughts flow. Because when you are in the day in and day out, day to day grind, you're just surviving. So there's very little room to actually transform or grow during that time. What else besides the part time work would you add to your advice for busy exhausted mothers?   Well obviously getting coached. And I'm not just saying that as a coach, but also as a client. Like I don't know if you're getting coached actively right now, Prianca, but like people always. Actually I was just doing a call with someone and they were like, surprised that I was still getting coached on stuff.   What I've learned from that is, I think people think, whether it's for themselves or looking at other coaches, that we get to a point where our brains are just beautiful inside and like there's no negative thoughts and like, I can handle anything and that kind of thing, unfortunately, yeah, we're human.   Yeah, we're still human. Like, I'm working with a parenting coach now and like. Oh, that's cool. I would say parenting it's like the hardest job in the world right?    And the most important too. I feel like most people feel like for me, my job as a mom is the number one job even though I spend a lot of time with my career and other things but it's top of mind.   Yeah. And then also what I realized is like I think every parent absolutely needs a parent coach. And part of being the best parent that you want to be is like working on yourself. And so that's why I also think coaching is, every parent coach does it differently. Mine coaches me and then also helps with some tips and tricks, but a lot of it's just coaching me and I'm like, freaked out, Jack's gonna get kicked out of school, like, you know, our brains just go to worst case scenario, he's gonna get kicked out of school, and then wanting to fix it right away. And so she has to coach me to calm my brain on that topic.   But yeah, I think getting coached is so important because understanding that our thoughts create our feelings, it's just life changing. But there's more than just, as you know, like, the way I'm trained is like really just working on your thoughts and how they downstream to feelings. But as you probably know, there's like other things at play that aren't just related to thoughts.   So like, I just feel like there's so much support that's available for your mental and emotional health that I think a lot of us neglect, because everyone kind of knows, like, oh, yeah, you should work out and go to the gym, because you'll feel better. And it's good for your health, right. But our mental health is just not prioritized at all, as you know. So I think that's really, really important is to prioritize your mental health. And there's so many ways to do that. Whether psychiatrists, therapists, coaching all the above.   I mean, I have a personal therapist, I'm in group therapy, and I have a coach. So I very much believe in taking care of myself first. Because that's always how we get to show up as the best versions of ourselves for them, and also setting an example for them, hopefully, so that they grow up caring for their own mental health as adults.   Oh, that's such a good point. I don't think I really thought about that. Here's another thing, right? And I didn't mean to make this into a parenting thing. But this applies whether you're not parent is if you think about it, our generation, although I think you're a lot younger than me Prianca. I'm not that much younger than you. I think I'm like a couple years younger than you. Yeah.   You just look so young. But you know, we were raised not being taught anything about how to handle our emotions. And if anything, especially cultural is like, don't show emotion, like, be stoic. And then if you're highly educated, it's just like pushing on through school and getting whatever you have to done. And then if you're a doctor, it's worse as well through residency.   So I think we have to learn that skill ourselves and learning it ourselves. Everything we do, our kids are watching us, it's modeled for them, right? And so if you grew up in a family just yelled and punished, and grounded you all the time. It's so funny, because no one's gonna say like, well, how a parent I'm gonna do the same thing for my kids. But as you know, like you end up parenting like your parents. It's kind of insane kind of a mind f, if you think about it.   Well, it comes really naturally. My experience is, I think about the way I was parented, and then I think about. It's in a book, How to Raise Successful People, which I may have recommended to you by Esther Wojcicki but she talks about really going through everything, how you were raised, and thinking about what you want to propagate forward and what you want to eliminate.   I don't know if I want to propagate any of it.   Okay, so for me, a lot of it. I'm like, okay, I'm not like my parents at all. But then what I find is in an academic setting, or like, when I start seeing my son, if he's doing well in school, then I'm kind of like, Alright, I have to help foster this, but not in the same way that my parents did, in a gentle kind way. But I can feel that it's all stirring up the old stuff where I was trying to do the best I could in school, and then I'm thinking alright, yeah, let him do the best he can do but without the punishment, and without tying in any his self worth to that and having like, a way bigger distance from all that.   Well yeah, we definitely were raised in the punishment is how you get people to comply and I mean, it is effective, but it also totally squashes self esteem. Anyway, that's what I'm learning how to navigate. And it's been fascinating for me, and also just showing me like all the areas that I still have work to do, you know?   Yeah, well, we're all constantly growing and changing and doing the best we can. And I really believe that our generation, we are doing better than our parents did. And hopefully our kids will do even better. I think so. Yeah, yeah. Although, I bet our kids are gonna say the same thing about us.   Well, I'm wondering if it's gonna be because even social media and all the info that's out there, it's very much we're trying to foster these independent people. And we ask them all these questions, and we're much more into mental health, but I wonder if the complaints gonna be the other way. Like, why couldn't my mom just be normal? And why did she have to ask me like how I felt about this? Like it was too psychological?   Interesting, but everything comes down to feelings, like truly.   Well, yes. So today, I was talking to coaches in my mastermind. And I was saying that really the work that pretty much we all do is helping people to sit in the discomfort because once you learn to actually sit with it, that's the currency for the good life because it's being able to be present with your anxiety sometimes, or whatever negative emotions and getting a little bit distance from them, be it through the model or other methods, but really not being one with our thoughts and our feelings. 24/7 Because that's where the torture lies.   I know and little kids, they can't understand like, why can't I have something that I want? Or why do I have to do things I don't want to do. Like brushing his teeth it's like a battle. Like, well I don't want to brush my teeth? None of them do. They don't. Yeah. And he's like, so why should I like I don't want to so therefore I shouldn't.   If I'm really honest here, one of my least favorite things with my kids is the ADLs like, I dread the morning brush teeth and the evening like brush your teeth before bed. And it really depends on how tired I am at night. But especially my two year old, she won't let me brush her teeth. And then I just let her do like very subpar job. And I'm like, alright, it's over.   I mean, which kid actually does the full two minutes? I mean, I don't think anyone does. I do 30 seconds. I'm like, You know what, 30 seconds is good enough?   Yeah I don't know. They hate brushing their teeth. I don't know. And they can't understand that is an automatic and a non negotiable of life. It's just one of the things that we don't need to get into the reason with them, but they hate it.   It boggles my mind. I'm like, doesn't he like. But like, wake up and you've got that, like morning mouth thing going on? I'm like, how is he not bothered by that? But kids just don't seem to be.   They don't care. I know. I hear you. Anyway. Yeah, those chores are tough. I will say though I have an au pair now. She often does the morning brush teeth. And they actually let her help and whatnot, like more than they will me. So yeah, my life has become infinitely better with that. Extra set of hands with her. So I highly recommend that if you have the space for it. It will take that stuff off your plate.   Yeah, I mean, we just have one. We both work from home. So we haven't needed one. But I wouldn't hesitate to hire one if I had multiple kids and had a schedule that made it hard to handle it myself.   Any other advice for exhausted professional moms?   So even if you can't, like I talked about go part, time take a sabbatical. Like you could take a little trip and go to a spa resort by yourself. I'm glad you asked this again. Because when I tell people that I take solo trips, they're shocked. A lot of women are shocked whether they have kids or not. Right. They're just like what, you can do that? And so I travel a decent amount for work. I go to a lot of conferences, but for my birthday this year, I went to Maribel for two nights by myself.   I remember when I told Matt he was like, what? You're not going to hang out with the family? I'm like no. Maribel is an all inclusive spa resort. I love it. I've been there many times. It's amazing what just even a weekend away will be so like nourishing and for anyone listening Maribel, there's three locations, Austin, Berkshire's, which is Massachusetts and Arizona, just two hours south of Phoenix. They are amazing resorts. It's all about wellness and prioritizing and mindfulness. Have you been to one?   I have. I enjoyed it. I also went by myself. My only thing was I felt like I was hungry there. They're too healthy. And I know it's all about wellness. They do the food health, you know, the healthful eating, you know.   You can always get more food, right?   I know but it's all, it's too healthy for me, like I need a steak or a burger like.   Oh, you should have done cook for me. Do you do that? That's good.   I did do that one of the nights. Yes. And that was good. But yeah, that was my only qualm with that place. Yeah.   So yeah, I think that's a great place or just like taking a trip with your girlfriends. I think, again, so easy to just stop doing that because you get into this routine. So I think even that, like I require a decent amount of time for myself. And now it's like normal, I don't feel like, although lately I have been trying to minimize travel a bit more just because Jack started kindergarten and I want to be available for him because we sent him to a Waldorf school.   I saw your post on social media about a more nature immersed school, and I thought, wow, that's awesome.   He's on a farm. And he is gardening and feeding animals, like they're outside, even when it's wet outside. So I had to buy him all this special gear. There's zero academics in their kindergarten. Because their whole philosophy is that developmentally like it's easier to learn when they're a little older. So they actually read a lot later than mainstream school. And so my friends warned me that they won't be reading until second or third grade, even.   They really focus on social and emotional development. And so it just was in line with all the things that I've been learning myself, right, just like really focusing on emotional regulation. Because if you think about it, those skills are way more important than your academics.   It's so true with my children, too. I always think like, well, what is the endgame in this? Like, whatever it is. It's not straight A's. Right, that's for sure. And also people get really crazy about sports and teams and this and that. And I'm like, alright, well are you gonna become a professional athlete? If not, like we don't have to be so crazy about this. Like, it's okay. They learn to be on a team. To me, it's more of a social, like you're talking about skill building.   I don't understand. Like I remember even before Jack was born, just like seeing that this was a thing. And I was so confused, because that's not how it was when we grew up, like our activity was just roaming around the neighborhood on our bikes and our parents not knowing where we were, you know those were our activities.   And so I actually, because he is on a farm all day, like they're literally being physically active. Like, I don't feel the need to do it. And also, they actually said that it's actually not great for them at this age, I forget, but that was enough for me to be like see, they told me not to do it, I'm not gonna do it.   Yeah, I think that's amazing. One thing I will say is my son's kindergarten teacher was saying that she teaches the kids a song about boundaries. And I said, oh, my, I was freaking out. I said, Oh my god, that's amazing. I said, can you imagine if we had learned that at a young age, boundaries like I didn't know what that was until.   They just learned about the personal bubble, the space bubble. Learning that like yeah, there's like everyone has a bubble and you have to ask for consent. And Jack that's his challenging area because he doesn't understand that and because he's so sweet and loving. If he met you like he would just like hug you but he's very strong. So it's almost like he's tackling you. So he doesn't quite understand that not everyone likes to get hugged. I'm like, listen, I know some people are weird. They don't want hugs. So you always have to ask, he still doesn't ask he just will embrace you.   Aw he has to regulate his kindness. Aw. I love that. So I love this concept of take some time and go on a trip alone. I think people are really afraid to do it.   Start with, it doesn't have to be even a night like I think baby steps, right? Because if you're married with kids, I know we're focused, because I'm sure not everyone listening has kids. Like, I have met women who are married with kids who literally never been away from their kids, even one night and their kids are older. I know your eyes are just wide.   I don't even know how that's possible. That's really intense.   So many people, they don't even go out to dinner without their kids.   It's too much. Start with a dinner. Let's just say that, start with a dinner alone. And actually, you never know if you let's say you sit at the bar and you eat dinner, you can meet people around you and you make new friends or just the possibilities are endless with that. What I was going to say about the alone time, I recently realized because I would take my kids on trips, and I took a few days to just reset by myself. And it was so magical that I only had to care for myself.   That was the whole thing that I didn't have to worry about. All right, the brushing teeth or the breakfast. All their needs, which we care for all the time. It's so automatic that one day even to just only think about yourself and be quiet. I like the friends trip idea. But I also think the time when you're not talking to other people and feeling like you have to be entertaining, or engage or listen or any of those.   That's why I like Mirabel solo. Because you don't have to talk to anyone. And it's fine, because a lot of them are there by themselves. Some people go with their girlfriends, but like no one's expecting you to like engage. And it's in that solitude and the quietness that you can get your best ideas or just restore or you're not giving to anyone except yourself.   And I think that's so fascinating that so many women, that concept of oh, let me just give to myself, and no one else, is so shocking for them. It's a world that they don't know. So yeah, start with that. Even if you can do, like I have a goal of doing it one 24 hour shift a month alone, like that is my goal.   That's amazing. I don't think I have, well, when I went to Paris for 10 Nights. Yeah, I didn't bring my family. I didn't mean for it to be that long. But you know, my business class tickets were already booked. So I couldn't change them. Probably not entirely true.   That's so funny. Yeah. So I have that as a goal. In addition to I think with friends, it's always good to have like a yearly trip you do with a certain group, let's say for doctors or med school friends, or college friends, or whatever other group you have, and just make it an annual thing. And that way, it's already there. Because if you just let these things go years go by. I know time goes so fast. And it's also like I only have one I can't imagine what it's like with more than one little one. But I think lately I've been trying to pick resorts to have a kids club of some sort.   So we can just park them there for even a few hours is helpful. Or I bring my mom sometimes. Yeah, although she needs a break too. Well, that's not your job, though. But yeah, I mean, I think that's another thing, it's like, don't feel bad about having support. Because I think also we think do everything ourselves. Right.   So like hiring the au pair, or just hiring a part time babysitter or like, don't clean your house, someone else could do that. Like there's so many things you can outsource and they don't cost as much as people think. Like a lot of women I meet don't like to cook, I'm like you can hire a personal chef or get meal, like there's so many services now that do that. Even if you did it a few times a week, that would be helpful.   Absolutely, or just really taking inventory of the things that bring you joy and don't and then start outsourcing the ones that you don't enjoy. Like if you don't find cooking therapeutic, some people do, but if it's not a therapy session for you, and you find it tiring, you don't want to clean up. For me all the prep, the cooking the cleaning afterwards, like that's a big chore for me. So I'd rather have someone help.   I don't do that Matt does it and then he just leaves stuff everywhere. And I was like, listen, you do the laundry. He loves doing laundry. Like you do the laundry, I sometimes cook, I take care of all things Jack, and then you have to deal with dishes and the garbage. Like it's a great division of labor that we have, you know.   I clean up sometimes but it's just putting stuff in the dishwasher. It's not like it's hard, you know? No, it's not.   No, I was gonna say and also he can manage Jack when you take your solo trips.   Yes, I think that might be harder. So that's something we have to navigate because his school is kind of far right now. And so it's a lot of driving. And so I think this fall, I've kind of minimized although I already took one trip and I have another one coming up but just being more picky with like speaking engagements and things like that, because I want to be away a little less because last year I was gone a lot. I mean, it was fun for me. Don't get me wrong.   Yeah, things wax and wane. I love that. Well, thank you so much for all of your pearls and your journey. So beautiful that you shared with us today. And please tell us anything about your business, how we can find you, follow you, all those good things. And of course, I will link to everything in the show notes as well. But definitely tell us verbally.   Yeah, so everything is wealthy mom MD. So it's my website. That's my instagram handle, same as my podcast, wealthy mom MD. And then as you know, I have a book, you can find that on my website, but it's called Defining Wealth For Women. It's a pink book.   I love that you wrote a book and I just think that that speaks to how we all have the ability to make our dreams come true. It's just them matter of getting your mind to it and then taking the action to make it happen Exactly just taking steps, like all this stuff happens by doing like a lot of little things   Wonderful, well thanks so much for coming today, it was great having you.

Gamers know the longtime PlayStation racing series Gran Turismo. The story of Jann Mardenborough, who turned a passion for the game into a career racing real cars was brought to theaters this summer in the film "Gran Turismo." But how closely do these films stick to reality? There's a reason why many include a disclaimer at the start that some characters and stories have been changed or dramatized. We talk about the recently completed HBO series "Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty," which has been criticized by some portrayed on the show. The there is the 1989 film "Great Balls of Fire!" starring Dennis Quaid as Jerry Lee Lewis. A lot of people were critical of the film, but co-host Bruce Miller interviewed Lewis and says the singer loved Quaid's performance.. What about movies like "Elvis" and the upcoming film "Priscilla," which both had the involvement of Priscilla Presley? Or the music biopic that largely led to the modern music biopics, Oliver Stone's "The Doors," which was criticized by the surviving members of the band? Even documentaries have been known to stray a little, such as the Oscar-winning "Searching for the Sugar Man" based on the life of Sixto Rodriguez. The film failed to mention the singer had modest success in Australia, so he wasn't a complete unknown.  We take a deep dive into true stories that have been turned into movies and even have an interview with Mardenborough, who was involved with the film. He also talks about his involvement with actor Archie Madekwe, who played Mardenborough. Where to watch "Gran Turismo" in theaters "Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty" on Max Contact us! We want to hear from you! Email questions to podcasts@lee.net and we'll answer your question on a future episode! About the show Streamed & Screened is a podcast about movies and TV hosted by Bruce Miller, a longtime entertainment reporter who is now the editor of the Sioux City Journal in Iowa and Terry Lipshetz, a senior producer for Lee Enterprises based in Madison, Wisconsin. Episode transcript Note: The following transcript was created by Adobe Premiere and may contain misspellings and other inaccuracies as it was generated automatically: Welcome everyone to another episode of Streamed & Screened an entertainment podcast about movies and TV from Lee Enterprises. I'm Terry Lipshetz, a senior producer at Lee and co-host of the program with Bruce Miller, editor of the Sioux City Journal and a longtime entertainment reporter. But first, an important disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are a fusion of professional critiques and passionate fandom. While Bruce's experience and my dedication to the couch may suggest an odd pairing, it's what makes this podcast a delightful mix of the expected and the unexpected. Listener discretion is advised and an important addendum to that. Bruce. No animals were harmed during the recording of this episode. Where did you get that? ChatGPT. Is this the future in the film? It wrote a lot more than that. First of all, we're out of jobs. That's what happens if everything's good, right? Man, I was thinking, you know, we were talking about this episode a week ago, and I said, you know, might be fun to have a disclaimer. And I'm sitting there like, What kind of disclaimer would we have for us? A We can say whatever. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And not be. Can I tell you, I always I hate this when somebody gets a bad review. And what do critics know? You know, why or who are critics? Well, a critic is somebody who probably watches a lot of what you do and has an idea about what is good and what isn't good. And so listen to them. But I've always said to them, anybody who pays money for something is a critic and is entitled to an opinion. So have at it. Absolutely. And you know what? I think it's like anything else where maybe, you know, you're a critic, you're doing it professionally, but you're still you're still a human being that needs to entertain yourself and something's good or something is bad. I mean, it is what it is. And I think you do need to be a fan to be a critic. Otherwise, if you hated the medium that you were were criticizing, you wouldn't do it, right. So there is that moment. But I you know, there are those who are like, greasy. They're a little over the top with the oh, my God, it's the greatest thing ever. I how many times have you read quotes from some movie ad that says this is the best thing since Gone with the Wind or, you know, and you got really I don't think it was or truth should be this great, You know? I mean, it's like, what are you saying? Right. But those are the things that you find. And they're quotable. Yeah. That they try to a lot of those when you look at reviews that are polled or quoted, those are written to get quoted because the critic who is saying, I can't believe movies have gotten this good wants to get his name in the ad. So then it helps boost his position as a critic and helps get the name out about the publication. So this podcast. Incredible. Four stars. I think the one nice thing though about the modern criticism in in any form, whether it's music or TV or movies or whatever you're following, the Internet has opened up all new avenues, right? Because in in the old days, you know, you might pick up your your Shoe City Journal and you would just have Bruce Miller, the one telling you or if you're in Chicago, you might have Siskel and Ebert or wherever you might be, you just have that local voice. But now you can go to Rotten Tomatoes where it's picking up the aggregate and and, you know, sure, the folks in the industry might not want to hear what a critic has to say, But when you go to like a Rotten tomatoes and you've got 300 critics saying your movie's terrible, yeah, it's probably it's probably stinky. It probably is not good. Well, that's really encouraging, isn't it? Is that. But it goes the other way, too, where if you actually want your critics to love it and it's, you know, certified Fresh by Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah, right. That's great. And then you get the weird ones where, you know, the critics will love it and then the fans dog on it or vice versa. And then you just bang your head on the wall and don't know what to do. The ultimately you are your best critic. Absolutely. Absolutely. Did we offend anybody in the process of that? And did we and or whatever our disclaimer said, I don't know. All I know is no animals have been harmed in the filming of this episode. So we're good. We're good. You know, we're we're going to talk about something that I think is just very fascinating. Do you know how many years in the Academy Awards have not had an actor nominee who is based on an actual person? Well, I'm eight years out of I think it's 90 some 95 years have not. How many? I'm just going it's like three. Eight, eight. Wow. Years. And look at last year we had Elvis. We had Marilyn Monroe. The famous ones could be considered beasts or, you know, sort of. Yeah. So there are those So that's it's a sure way to an Oscar is to play somebody who actually exists. Yeah. And there were the most the most at 12 in 2018. Isn't that unbelievable. It's crazy. We're just grabbing anything. We can throw it up on the screens. It's based in fact, you know, So that's a surprise to me. But it's it is sure content. You will know that there is some story to base it on. We saw now recently with the blindside, where Michael Oher is just kind of like now, this is not this isn't what I remember. So he's trying to speak against this as the ultimate. And it's never, never, ever, ever in the history of filmmaking is a film, an absolutely accurate depiction of what happened. Right. Because it's not a document, right? It's not a documentary. Even that with documentaries, Right. You can't trust them. No. I remember I This tells you how far back we go. Okay. I did a master's thesis on the validity of critics. It's like, do critics make a difference? Is basically the thesis that I did. And we looked back and there was like, this sliver of time when actually critics would have any kind of impact on the audience. And what it was was in those days they were showing what like people were like Eskimos were like. And people had never seen Eskimos. So they believed exactly what they saw on the screen and said that is exactly the way it is, even though it may not have been so. And it was just a very sliver of time that critics could have some kind of impact on what people saw after that don't make a difference at all. People just kind of watch something and. Yeah, and you see that even now with like Netflix where movies that bomb at the box office. But all of a sudden we'll get they'll be trending on Netflix. You'll see like, you know what's that most popular and it'll be some movie from seven years ago that nobody went to see all of a sudden gets hot because it's just people for some whatever reason now algorithm and then it catches fire. Yeah, well look at Green book. Green Book won Best picture the Red critics were, like, kind of lukewarm on it as a as a movie movie. And the people who were related to the man portrayed said it isn't his life. This isn't all at all what it was like. Right. But it played well because it kind of touched those heartstrings that we were looking to touch. And so they made do something to you emotionally, but they may not do it realistically. Yeah. And, you know, you talk about these dramatization scenes, but it's even in documentaries, the storytelling can be twisted in a way to help tell a narrative and one that I wanted to bring up because the person that was featured in it just died recently. Sixto Rodriguez, who was a musician out of Detroit, he released two albums and they didn't they didn't do very well commercially, and he got dropped by his label and he kind of fell into obscurity. And he got popular in South Africa during apartheid when when the the country was basically cut off from civilized nation. There is no Internet at the time, so there's no way of researching. And this mythology was built about the sugar man and this documentary, Searching for the Sugar Man. It won an Oscar for best Documentary. But even in that case, it's failed to mention that he had like these small pockets of international fame. It wasn't you know, he never achieved some level of glory and made tons and tons of money. But in the late seventies, early eighties, Rodriguez was actually touring in Australia. And and that was before they discovered, you know, he was alive in South Africa. So even in that case where you have a story, which is it's a documentary, it's interviewing the real person, there's no actors involved. It's supposed to be reality. They kind of fudged with reality a little bit just to tell the story of, you know, here is this person that's completely obscure, even though in Australia they knew exactly who he was because he had been there a few times there. Yeah, it's well, look at the the film that's leading the way this year for best picture. Oppenheimer Right now that looks about as clean as you can get, except for some of those scenes that are kind of done in the mind, if you will. But it's it's the artistry of the director, you know, so you're not getting the story. And we've got other ones coming this year. We we had air which was about right the Michael Jordan selling of Nike Napoleon is coming up. Ferrari is coming up. Priscilla, about Elvis Presley's wife. You know, so there are the and the killers of the flower moon, what you're waiting for, right? Right. Not all these are based, in fact, for some reason. And it's a jumping off point is what it amounts to. Reality becomes a starting point, but not necessarily an end point. Right. And we saw this also in another in a series on HBO that just wrapped this past weekend, you know, winning time. Right. Which looked at the the the rise of the Lakers dynasty in Los Angeles. And a year ago, there was a lot of controversy after season one. Jerry West, who is portrayed in it was very unhappy with his portrayal in the show and you know is basically making him look like this crazed lunatic. And he's not true and he wasn't like it. And and then season two comes along and, you know, of course, they're opening it up with this disclaimer that this is a dramatization. Some of the characters have been changed. And what I found myself doing through the that every single episode that I watched, something would happen. And I was immediately on my phone. Looking, is. It is this part, you know, because one of the things near the end was this lawsuit by, you know, a wife of Dr. Jerry Buss, who's trying to take the team from him. It's like, well, you know, who is this person? And I'm I'm kind of Googling it and person's not really a real person. It's sort of a fictional ization of another person. And so it's those little things like that that they're introducing. But on the flip side, you know, you have Jerry West, who was very unhappy with it, but I read in I think it was in Vulture, they were talking to the to the folks behind the series and they said they showed the episodes to Jeanie Buss, Jerry Buss daughter, who's portrayed in it. And she loved the series and she felt a connection to her father again, who had passed away a number of years ago. So she really enjoyed watching the show because it kind of, you know, rekindled those memories of of kind of growing up in that time. So it's I guess, you know, how you're being portrayed and in what way and and whatnot. But, you know, that that was kind of an interesting one from that perspective. We have this year weird about Weird Al Yankovic, and it's so off the beam. It's not at all what his life was like. He was participating in it. So he, if you will, signed off on it right? Elvis had Priscilla as kind of their guide or through it all, all of this, and it was nominated for best Picture last year. You know, now this year, Priscilla is probably going to be nominated and Priscilla is talking. So she's rewriting the narrative of Elvis Presley just by what she'll allow or what she won't allow in the story. So that's interesting. But there are duds. There are duds that didn't really work. You know, Can you think of movies where you thought, Oh, my God, that's just terrible, that one. That one doesn't cut it. And I think one that people always mention is John Travolta as Gotti. Oh, that was a real stinker. It was so bad. Yeah. Ashton Kutcher as Steve Jobs. Yeah, not much there. Michael was his John Belushi and Wired. Well, now somebody didn't like Jerry Lee Lewis portrayed by Dennis Quaid in Great Balls of Fire. But I got to tell you, I interviewed Jerry Lee Lewis about this and he loved it. He thought he captured every bit of him. So, you know, it's all perspective. If it's my life, you know, come on, Brad Pitt, I'm telling you that right now. Right. And there's no way that I am remotely in the same ballpark as Brad Pitt, But they get a chance to kind of rewrite their own history by having control over who plays them. Yeah, you have play you would you pick and you know better. You're not going to say, oh, I'm going to take you know, I don't even want to name names, but you're going to pick. So you see, George Clooney is going to play me. Of course. It would probably be Clooney. I you're right. Right? Yeah. Either yeah. These a older. Clooney were there. You know, you mentioned Brad Pitt. He was on day of the last season, the day of portraying himself. But it was it was a fictionalized version of himself. And that was so good, right? So he was so good because you even felt the kind of like tension that he had in that situation, because I don't want to spoil it, but there's this nutty person in the house or that Brad Pitt is in the house and Dave is in the house, and you've got to be How do we get out of the house? Yeah. There was that scene to where he in it. He says, Well, you can call me and I can't remember what the name was. He's like, Well, that's that's really what my name is. And again, am I Google like, is that really his name? It's like this is he fictionalized that fictional name, which is comical. And it doesn't always work. Like I say, there are situations where you go, Mm, this really laid an egg and I think we'll see it this year or two. We're going to see, yeah, films that just might not make it at all. Last year we had blond, which was about Marilyn Monroe in there. Ana de Armas played her and got an Oscar nomination and she was good, but the movie sucked. It was awful. And I defy you to say that you watched the whole thing. People didn't watch the whole thing. They got to the nude scenes and they shot it off. After that, it was not worth watching because the story didn't make any sense. You know, you have like Freddie Mercury story, Bohemian Rhapsody, right? Liked it because it plays into the the myth that I think has been created. So who? Yeah, well, I got to talk to one of those real people who's featured in Gran Turismo, which is a film about a guy who won the right to become a race car driver by playing video games. There was a competition and they, you know, whatever. And for whatever reason it clicked. Jann Mardenborough is his name and he is portrayed in this film as that naive person getting into the race car business and what it meant. He's still a race car driver. And we got a chance to talk about that whole trajectory and what it was like for him and what he thinks of the guy, Archie Madekwe, who plays him, what he thought of his performance. So we have a tape here. If you'd like to run it. We'll listen to what he has to say about portraying real people on screen. What is it like seeing yourself on a screen? I mean, we're not how many people get this story of their life told in a film? It's like 0.0001% or something? Yeah, it's it's very it's surreal, really. Being honest. It's it's even more surreal with somebody tells people tell me that the racing driver that had movies based on their lives, they no longer around single that they passed away so soon being 31 years old and have your life attractive. Your life. You told of the Big three. An audience is rare and in my industry very rare. So I feel very blessed and honored. That can actually tell. You know what shop in my life. Did you feel a connection to the character or did you see it as somebody else. Noticed me? I yeah, it really does feel like you did you have any did you have any say then in who gets to play you? Did you say, I'm going to look at these people and just see. If it's no secret you was always on the phone by the producers. They kept me in the loop, involved in all the scripts, you know, sets as well. And I was always kept informed of who they like. I see an actor to play me. Apparently the casting will be so long, even a year before Benigni was even shot. Oh, wow, Boss, she was always been number one favorite, as far as I understand, with many different levels of casting processes. But she was the one from day one. And did you like him from day one or did you go or. I don't know. He spoke on Face Time, The lowland scene with a mouth eat it plainly and pseudovirus Because I was in labor at the time that I was like, This looks like straight away. And so that was a great start. We met in person as well. Weeks later, after that phone call, and I it gave you a confidence because I was happy with the script, but meeting the person for the first face, it gave me even more confidence in things like be great, because he was absolutely casting Steely. Obviously he knew from producers as well and all time and face time and texts that meet somebody face to face difference. And he caught it really mean okay, I can focus on being studied rather and make it to focus on the acting and because we're completely allied on this. Yeah in yes he killed it. Did he ask you a lot of questions? Absolutely. And what he. What did what surprised you that he wanted to know? A lot of I'm not repeating his emotional my support is in the while it it's sports you have to be quite clinical but he was asking questions about the relationships I've had with certain people within the industry, my friends, my family. I just kind of try to be open is we all. And it became this very good at asking those questions that was so provoking and as two things which are them? He still dealt with soul so he can work on his craft when he's allowed a chance at this and he can show that and he got on set. How good was he had driving? Well, didn't have a driver's license very recently before shooting. I think for insurance, we'd really have to pass his test. And I didn't know at the time I think it was that a make or break, because if he didn't pass the test, we could have shot with Michelle McCann. But I know everybody at the meeting. But yeah, he was on a fast track course and then I'd passed and he said it interesting. But he said the favorite brand, right? I was always so, so is mine. But there you go. Yeah. He's got good taste, wrong behavior. So yeah, I think if you were bring somebody that have been involved, it looks sort of caused the fault. So it feels very nice. But I have a lot of respect to somebody. Go to another industry and be honest. If I go dancing all through dancin or being a ballerina and let me see myself in that. So I would not risk that in the business. He'd never done this before, yet no interest because now he is a face granturismo which is just racing was and he is he, he nailed it. So yeah, I will respect that. But you know, the movie makes a big deal about can you really make the transition from being a gamer to being a driver. Is it possible? I mean, yeah, was possible with you. But in the grand scheme of things, was your dad really right? And you said, you know, this is going to lead to nothing. These are not going to be career connections for anybody. Well, I will indeed. My stepfather to that question. That was the question we were always asking ourselves, kind of be done proof. But you're one you're one person and, you know, you know, kids sit around and they're doing they're playing games all day and will it lead to something? And that's where dreams and belief comes into it, because they think that easy, everybody be able to do it but makes it easy. All that accomplishment is hard, as if all and it seems like it's not possible. Well, everything is well. I believe that you can do anything. It's a little set. You can't do everything. You can sit and do anything. He's taken line to it. I never let that like the beta racing brother go out. I didn't know how I would get from A to B, but always away very much aware from a young age or very headstrong as a person you would as a kid. That's what I want to do. And I'm not going to take no for that. So I'm not really from other people. That is the gospel of you have spoken in the past with other people about things that I'd said growing up as a teen, where I would say a BMW story, my first car as a child as that when I'm 17 years old and I had my friends because boys, boys, they would rip anything to me for years about that. And I spoke to my other friends, Solid school lives and that scene in the movie, they were a bar and they told me that they could they had a few drinks them. It must not limit the conversation. And they said to me, Look, you never said to us that you wanted to be a racing driver. And I boulevard and I was like, You're right. I never I never told anybody. I never told anybody about drink because you have to protect that. You can't walk around. I don't need you should walk out. I want to do this. I wanted that because people call you out today and also it loses the energy over Did you news that that that that you know that energy. Yeah I believe so I never spoke to anybody about it. It was always my inner drew but I believe you can do anything so anybody watching I learned via high fives in the messages for people about taking an interest in looks, but also telling me I learned to pursue my dream. It would tell me what it is, which I love you shouldn't tell me. You should tell me what it is I want to pursue my dream. You inspired me to see like me. And I love that kids want to move forward too. Why me? Yeah. The rules of life. We have to follow our actions up to this. Well, when it does happen, how do you feel? I mean, is it like. Well, now I've got to find a new dream, or, you know. While in racing, it's that is this thing as the perfect guy. So it's like and it's feel old chase So perfecting your craft and it will never be perfect. So I'm still in the trenches of how can I get better at the race? And rather that's what gives me purpose. Okay, I want to race here, but when I get there, I like to race. I want to wait. I want it to be fast. I want to recent level championships level, the championship races that lie. My drive is the constant. It's a set them and then we have living. It's up and up whether that be right and whether that can being the way out or I stop what right dress or whatever I my business lines it's always a a quality that. All right Bruce thanks for that interview. You know with the race car, movies and biopics, what was your thought on this one compared to like something like a Ford versus Ferrari? Well, this is one that actually had some kind of controversy about the way they messed with time because there's a big accident that's in this film and it has been moved from where it actually happened to a different time because it helps build tension and look at the guy who is it's his story doesn't mind, I guess I can't mind. But I think also because he's an executive producer, so there might be somebody that helped say, I don't mind. Yeah, yeah, No. I enjoy the racing movies. I enjoyed Ford versus Ferrari. I thought that was a really good story to tell. Well, this year, Ferrari, so. Yeah, exactly. Helped Ford in there. Exactly. And so you have to go into every screen biography as it ain't all true. Right? You know, it's interesting, you mentioned a lot of movies based on music, you know, with like Queen and Sugar and you had Elton John. And the one that kind of gets looked at is almost a starting point. I mean, there is there's been a few others along the way, but the one that really kind of propelled, I think the modern film was The Doors from Oliver Stone. And that's one where the three surviving members of The Doors at the time, they hated it. They were and they worked with Oliver Stone for a while on it to try to help, you know, tell the story. And when that thing came out, they were not at all happy with the way. And it hurt it because Val Kilmer should have gotten a best Actor nomination. Yeah, he was that good. And boy, they buried it. Yep. And when you look at later ones, Rami Malick, you know, when you look back on that one, you were going to say, why did he win the Oscar for playing Freddie Mercury? And it all boils down to that little number he did in front of a huge crowd because they played that thing forever before you even saw the film. And that one scene is very good, but the rest of it doesn't really back it up. And I think that's when you look at it, you'll say, you probably shouldn't have got it. You know, it wasn't it wasn't all that. The Whitney Houston one I think is awful and Rocketman is good. But then when it needs to, it'll go into these kind of fantasy sequences so that then you're not really sure what's what's shaking, what's real, what's true, what's not. You know, it's been an interesting series of films and they're not they're sort of interconnected because they're connected by almost like an individual. There's a producer. His name is Mark Girardi. He was a baseball pitcher. He actually pitched professionally. He pitched for a season with the Milwaukee Brewers. I know the story a little bit more because when I was working in New Jersey, he's actually from New Jersey. And my newspaper that I was working for at the time did a story on him when some of his movies were making out. So he finished his baseball career. He went into, I think, modeling and he started making Hollywood connections and then he started telling stories through Disney. And, you know, I'm all, you know, like Miracle about the 1980 Olympic hockey team and the rookie. And I went back and looked at, you know, I was trying to find like, you know, fact versus fiction on those. And I was having a hard time finding very much fictionalized. And I think those in general were pretty well-regarded. I was looking at a story about the Rookie with Jim Morris talking about, you know, the portrayal of him because he was the pitcher who blew out his arm and became a high school baseball coach and then all of a sudden realized he could throw 98 miles per hour again and ended up working his way back into the big leagues. And he said that the film was about 90% accurate to his real life. So it's good to see that there are some films out there, and I think I've really enjoyed those films that that they've done, like Miracle, like The Rookie, because I find them, you know, they're good, they're family friendly, they're not too over-the-top, but they seem to keep fairly close to historical facts. Yeah, it's condensing time, basically. You know, everything doesn't happen within a year. I think they're better off when they do a slice of somebody's life where it's like maybe three months of their life. And that's the movie. I think that would be the interesting kind of situation. Maestro is coming up by Leonard Bernstein. And that should be, I think, a really good one in terms of how well they track a segment of his career. But I, you know, gee, I, I would hate to be the subject of a biopic because I think that you have to kind of then live that that story instead of a real story was, you know, because that's what people think of you. They want to have things condensed and into a, you know, a neat little package that you can see in 2 hours. And we're done with you and you move on. But there there's much more beyond that. And I think when you look at those those seminal moments, maybe that's all it should be. Ken Burns is a great one to do documentaries about famous people, but what he uses are voices, other people talking about that person. So, you know, it's almost like a print news story where you hear others making some kind of assessment. And it's not just necessarily the character saying something. So those I find the most accurate in terms of believing what I'm seeing. But again, it's filtered. History is filtered by those who are telling history. I think the only thing that bothers me, I mean, I always know that there's going to be some creative license, some dramatization to these films, but it just irks me when they make weird changes for the sake of making changes that don't necessarily make sense. Because I remember somebody I've never seen the Buddy Holly story with Gary Busey. Robyn No, I haven't. I just I need to go back and watch it one of these days. But I remember a friend of mine talking about it and saying that you know, he like he liked the film, but he couldn't understand why they didn't have all the crickets. Like Buddy Holly's backing band was The Crickets. And it was like they had like three of the four members in it but not. Get their rights. Right. So it's just like, Why would you make a movie and leave out one of the band members, You know, if there is a reason for it, I guess, you know, somebody would want their story told. But if it was just more because as well, it's it gets a little unruly with four people. So we're going to just narrow it down to three. To me, those are little things that to the average person may not notice. But if you're trying to also appeal to fans of the band or the musician, these are historical pieces. It's like it's like even watching Field of Dreams, where Shoeless Joe Jackson is is batting from the wrong side of the plate. You know, it's it's you know, when you make a left in the batter right handed or vice versa, that kind of thing is like little details like that. When you're when you're a fan, you're kind of going. Like, do a fancy. Fancy get maybe that right. You know, that's that's kind of irritating. You know, now Broadway is jumping on the bandwagon and they're doing all of these musicals about musical people because they're very dramatic. They've got a built in catalog of sounds that always will work because people know them. There's a Neil Diamond one out now. There was Tina Turner, there was Cher. And you're going to see more and more of those Mamma Mia, which was just the songs with a different story. Right? But they're they're easily tapped into bowl. I always say that you can easily tap into them. Right. What I want to say, because you already know something about them, which is the music, and I think that's a shorthand that they don't have to tell other parts of the story because you just assume that's their. Yeah, though, I don't know, it's weird, but if there's a story or a moral or a caution to be added to this, it's a don't believe them. When you see a screen biography, don't believe them. They're very entertaining, but they aren't necessarily the true story. Absolutely. That's a good point to to end this episode. Thank you again, Bruce, for that interview. When Brad Pitt plays me in the movie version of the podcast, you know that it's going to have a different ending. Absolutely. Yep. And again, you know, just want to point out one last time, no animals were harmed in the recording of this podcast yet. We're all yet going to have a cat wander in here in a second. No, no, no. I know. That's all right, everyone. Thank you again. Come back again next week for another episode of Stream. The screen.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today's guest is a former engineer at Yahoo who understands search engines second to none. We talk about all the ways to run an agency wrong, hoping to teach you how to be successful and do it right. He founded BlitzMetrics, a digital marketing company that provides training and mentorship for aspiring entrepreneurs across the globe. On a mission to create a million jobs internationally, please welcome Dennis Yu. Dennis Yu, it's a pleasure. Welcome to the Learning from Others Show. How you doing, man? Good, Damon, and it's awesome hanging out with you again. I wish it was in person like we were driving race cars in Vegas. I. That was fun. You know, we got a couple stories we could probably hit. Um, you and I have engaged on mostly Facebook over the years and kinda got a little friendship going on and, um, yeah, I, I flew out and I, every time I fly out somewhere I try and kinda keep track of who's where and, um, I. And meet up with somebody and establish a relationship a little bit better. So I appreciate the opportunity of you being willing to go hang out. And we did, we went and did a limo in race cars and um, I mean, you live in Vegas, but we, we did the tourist a little bit of the touristy thing. Yeah. Yeah. And, and thanks for taking the time. That was such an honor. And you know, you're one of the few ss e o people out there. I know this is being recorded. You're one of the few ss, e o people out there that is legit and drives results. And I am not being compensated to say this. But I've been sharing this and I'm, I know people that are watching this and have seen my Facebook posts. They're coming to you. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's, um, we'll probably talk 'cause you're legit about that today, you know? Yeah. Not, not about me, but about the industry. And, um, for, for me, that's been, uh, Good and bad to throw rocks at my own industry. Right? Like, it's unfortunate that that's such a valuable sales proposition to distinguish yourself as actually doing your job. But, but it is. So why don't we, why don't we start there? So, um, actually before we get into it, um, let's, let's have you talk about yourself the most, uh, enjoyable, comfortable part of a podcast. Um, I, I actually like how you put it on the intake form when, uh, so I ask the guests, you know, what's your elevator pitch that we can use? And Dennis just puts Google me. If we're talking about s e o and, and you don't have a knowledge panel show up when I Google you, you're a fat weight loss coach. Fat weight loss goes, where's, where's the analogy of a fat weight loss coach? Oh, fat, okay. Overweight weight, weight loss coach. That's overweight. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. So Dennis, um, has been in marketing for how, how long have you been in marketing? 30 years. Yeah, how'd you get into it? And I was one of the original people, one of the first people at Yahoo. So I built the internal analytics at Yahoo. So I'm a search engine engineer, so I'm not an S E o. I am the person who's trying to protect the results from the SS e o people trying to trick us. Yeah. Have you got jaded over the years knowing like how this works and being able to see the manipulation that's going on when it's not done for the right audience and the right users? Do you think that weight loss scams will ever go away? Every year there's a new scam, right? And people fall for it. 'cause they're just like, how do you not know that? It's a scam? Hey, if I take this one pill, you're gonna lose 30 pounds in 12 days. Like it's a scam, right? Mm-hmm. So the salespeople are always inventing new techniques. And I remember, this is like back in my day, we used to walk uphill both ways. I built websites by hand using Microsoft Front page. It was engineers that were building websites, people like us that actually physically knew how to do the thing. It was before the marketing people and all that came in back then. You remember it was called web mastering. Mm-hmm. Before it became digital marketing and social media and influencer and all these other words that are now really just buzz words, new words for the same thing. Mm-hmm. Right. And now I'm, I'm gonna blame the internet money Bross. Yeah. And the motivational speakers for now, all of them are ai. Experts and crypto experts and chat G P T experts and they're SS e o experts too. So all these people have come in in the last few years seeing easy money and now they're gonna start selling S E o. I was a Josh Nelson seven figure agency conference and Josh Nelson's amazing. I love the guy. They're people that come into that program 'cause they think it's easy money. And in the program Josh teaches you should sell s e o, but he also says you should also deliver s e o too. You should also understand what it is. Some agency owners, the guilty will be unnamed, are selling ss e o and they don't even know what it is, but they know that people want it and they need it. So they sell it for $2,000 a month and they're making all this money. This one company that I'm probably gonna release a full investigation later today is making three. Well, they're, they were making last month, $320,000 a month off of 150 clients that are paying for s e o and Facebook ads and websites and things like that. It is a scam. There's no way to defend it. It's a scam, but it's a sales guy running it. He has no operations, he has no marketing. He's a sales guy and some of them even white label their stuff out. So they have no idea what it is and someone else is doing it. They, the client doesn't know anymore. I mean, you know, they, but they're selling it 'cause they're salespeople. There's too many salespeople in the s e O space. Mm-hmm. We need more mechanics, not people in the car dealership wearing a tie. Slick hair saying all these things about the car. We need more mechanics that actually have grease on their fingers, like you and me. Yeah. I mean, I often get asked what, um, what should I know as I shop s e o and, and I think that why people are so attracted to, to you know, you and your transparency is because it establishes trust when you're willing to go, Hey, you know, One example, s e o takes time, but here's why. And then you explain it. Or, hey, not only here are the advantages of s e o, but here are the disadvantages because what they're getting pitched to you. You nailed it with the sales bros and not enough actual people doing the work is the majority of the time. These people that. Sounds smooth, are not the people that are actually doing any of the work. So they're gonna tell you whatever they think that you want to hear. And so when, when I get asked, you know, what should I be, be looking out for? And I'd be curious, some of the things that are top of your mind is, is my first thing is transparency. Like, they should be able to communicate. You don't need to know, you know, the, the full granular details of, of everything that's going on, but you should be able to clearly communicate, you know, here's. The intent behind why we're gonna focus on this thing in content, not just, we're gonna write stuff, you know? Mm-hmm. And what's, how, how are we gonna measure progress? Right. And how long is this gonna take and why? Yeah. But the majority of the people that are out there are just like, oh yeah, no, we'll get to it. You know, we'll get there, you'll see. And it's just like these vague responses, and I think that's become a thing of, of. Beyond just ss e o, but you and I are, are in that space more so just marketing in general is these constant sales bros of it's yell loud or talk louder or be flashier. Mm-hmm. And the emotions overtake the sales process. And then it doesn't matter, like right before we hit record, I was telling you about somebody that we're working with and they're killing it and the data shows they're killing it. But a, a sales bro got in their ear about, Hey, you need to be louder and flashier, and they're tearing it all down. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The sales bross are focused on collecting the money. I. They'll make huge promises. They're, they don't even know whether they can hit those promises 'cause they're not operators. The fact that you are posting screenshots, of course you're masking out like the client name and the keywords and all that, but showing the increase in traffic and sales, not just ranking on more keywords. 'cause you can rank on a bunch of garbage keywords and claim victory. Yeah. We need more people doing what you're doing and actually teaching the techniques. Not that these clients wanna learn how to, you know, who wants to learn how to change a transmission or, but at least if you know that that guy who is an actual mechanic is posting videos of him as he's, you know, working on the transmission and got grease on his hands as he's working on the car. There's a lot more trust there and especially if the mechanic shows what they're doing, right? I'd love to, you know when, when you go to a car or uh, you know the dealership and something's wrong with the car, they're gonna give you an itemized list. Of the things that are broken and what, and therefore the toll and you know, maybe the dealership will still overcharge you, but at least you know what they're doing, right? Yeah. If you're buying a new car or not a new car. So Damon, let's say you're buying a, a car off of whatever, like Facebook marketplace and the guy says, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always been in the garage the whole time and never been driven. And you see it's got 150,000 miles on it. I don't know if that's exactly true. Oh, it's, it's never been in a crash, really. I don't know. It just looks like some of these. Here don't look like they were the original parts. Are you sure? Oh yeah. It's brand new. You know, it's, it, I don't trust, I just hate to be cynical. I don't trust what other people have to say. So if you're gonna buy a car, Damon from somebody, third party, are you just gonna take what that guy says or are you gonna have a mechanic check it out real quick? Yeah. You, you're, you're doing the equivalent of an audit. Yeah. So I, you know, audits take two minutes. In two minutes we can spot all kinds of garbage. That you and I know, like buying a bunch of fake links or most commonly having done nothing. Yeah. And letting the, especially in a service-based business, letting the G M B and the reviews that are actually done by the client carry the weight and claiming credit for that. Yeah. How dare you claim credit for something the client did? Yeah. And dressing it up as, oh well, Google's algorithm changes all the time and it takes a while and it's a mystery. And I can't tell you our methods 'cause they're proprietary, can't give you access to our systems. I hope you understand. It's such a big secret. I'd have to kill you. Proprietary is one of, if the not top red flag for me, as soon as somebody says that in, in a marketing sales discussion, because we're all using the same dozen or two tools. Mm-hmm. It's just who knows how to use them most efficiently in which combination to deliver on the results. Yeah. If any that you have mapped out into SOPs, Can you imagine if you ask a mechanic, so you're fixing my transmission. What tools are you using? Oh, it's prop tools. Using wrenches are secret. Yeah, yeah, I can understand if you're like Mrs. Field's chocolate chip cookies, but even they put their recipe out there as like a, a campaign to try to, you know, what was like a gorilla campaign? 'cause they, they planted that thing to try to make it popular. But I flew back from LA yesterday to Vegas and the pilot greeted me. I always liked to just have a quick chat with the pilot if I'm the last one on the plane. And can you imagine asking the pilot, so, um, How did you learn how to fly? A 7 27? And he says, oh, it's a secret. I can't tell you. It's super proprietary. No, there's flight training manuals and all that kind of stuff out there. It's, it's public. In any field. If you're a doctor, hey, you're a heart surgeon and you're gonna do heart surgery on me, what scalpels are you using? Hell yeah. Super proprietary, the scalpel and you know, it's the scalpel that I use. It's, you know what, you could be a heart surgeon too. If you pay me $10,000 and sign up for my weekend course. I'll teach you how you can be a heart surgeon just in a weekend, because I'm also gonna give you access to my proprietary scalpels. It's the skill of who's using the scalpel. It's the, do you remember Mars Blackman and the Air Jordan campaigns? I think you're old enough to remember that. Uh, I never got in the shoes and think that, but that's No. Uh, but it, but so they had Air Jordan, you know, Michael Jordan, the most famous basketball player ever, and they were making fun. It was, the commercials back in the eighties were hilarious. Mm-hmm. That Mars Blackman, who was Spike Lee would say, it's the shoes. It's the shoes. Got the shoes, Uhhuh. You could jump as high as Michael Jordan and hit your head on the rim, right? Yep. So do you think if I switched from Adidas to Nike that I'd all of a sudden be a better basketball player, do you think If like me doing ss e o, if I just switched from my primary tool to, you know, the proprietary ones or Majestic or Hfss or SEMrush, like, do you think that would matter? No, it's all the same data. There's no proprietary, like you said. Yeah, it's, it's your skill. The other red flag for me is guarantees and, and my position on gu. Sure, they sound lovely. I get why they're attractive, uh, attractive to the consumer and attractive to sell. Um, and, and, and in some forms of marketing, maybe there's guarantees. But in s e o there, there's so many abstract variables and, and wildcard that you should be able to communicate why they're variable in a wildcard and also communicate. Why you can't offer a guarantee on it. What you can do though, is you can communicate averages and expectations. Mm-hmm. You know, you can't guarantee you're gonna be on page one in 10 months, but you could say on average it's 12 months or whatever, give or take. You can talk about the home runs that took four months. But to me it's a huge red flag. It it's a sales guy. Anytime I hear somebody saying there's a guarantee. As you talked earlier, it's the guy doing the sales and not the person actually doing the fulfillment and the guarantee in our space, what, what you and I are doing, it's competitive SS e o. So for us to move from position five to position one, that means we have to get ahead of those other four guys. So we, we can't, we. Guarantee what those other four people are doing. Yeah, we can, we can guarantee our effort level, we can guarantee higher r o i because we can focus where there's less competition or where there's more bang for the buck by going, by changing our strategy. Yeah. But we can't guarantee number one on Google for city name, you know, plumbing or whatever it is. Real estate city name. Yeah. Well, let's talk to, um, Let's talk to the aspiring agency owner and how they can avoid being part of our future discussions and how to approach. You do not want me writing an article about you in that I love writing articles about people, and they're either very positive, which is 99% of the time, like I love Uplifting You, Damon. And then there's the 1% of the people that are outright scamming 'cause A, they're not delivering, and B, they know it. There's a lot of people that are unintentionally ignorant. And this is the advice that we're giving agency owners right now. You wanna take care of your clients. You recognize there's a lot of stuff that you'll never know as much as Damon Burton, but there's certain things you do need to know. You've gotta learn the basic tools to see that rankings turn into traffic. That turn into sales. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And if you just generate, so there's one personal injury client that they were paying this guy. His name sounds like a whiskey. His first name is Jason. You can maybe figure out who it is. And he was charging this personal injury attorney $70,000 a month. And what he did was upload a dictionary to the site on how do you get a commercial truck driving licenses. So they, you know, attorneys, they want truck driving cases. 'cause those are million dollar cases versus like fender-bender ones, right? They really want the truck driving cases. So, This guy was ranking on all these, these truck driving terms, but they're all like, how do, what are the, you know, how long does it take to get a commercial truck, uh, driving license? And what is a C D L? And none of them had the intent of someone who got hit by a truck. Yeah. And this guy that was charging $70,000 a month, what he did was he was, he was creating 200 garbagey posts in a glossary every month. I told you about this one. Mm-hmm. We talked about this before. Yeah. And. The client who's wealthy and has made, you know, over a billion dollars, didn't know any better, but he suspect it's, you know, these guys are not dumb, but they don't know about s e o. They're real smart and they, like, you don't wanna try to pull the wool over. Just because they don't know about SS e o doesn't mean they're dumb. Okay. They're, they can kind of, they're busy. Yeah. They're, they're good at the thing that they do, and you're good at the thing you do, and I get that, but, So this guy Jason was claiming, look at all the look we're driving, we're ranking on another 2000 keywords. Yeah, but they're all garbage. And I looked inside the analytics and there is no more phone calls and no more cases being driven off of this s e o. All the cases from a search engine organic search standpoint, we're coming on. People searching for the client's name. This, this client is on TV, billboards. He has more billboards in Kentucky than anyone else. He's all over the place, right? So they Google his name and, and then this s e o guy was claiming credit for this guy's TV ads and billboards. So my number one thing for people that your agency owners and your, you know, you need to offer, you can't just offer Facebook ads 'cause then you have a 90 day churn. That's just unfortunate, right? Mm-hmm. You can't offer social media by itself unless you just wanna churn it out. You have to offer s e o, you have to offer some kind of P P C or whatnot to show that you can drive results. But the key is start with the results first. Yeah. Don't talk about all the s e o, whatever. Start with you need more cases, you need more clients, you need more book jobs, you need more phone calls. And that comes from people that. Come to our website because they search on these certain keywords and here's the competition on those keywords. So most of these s e o people, they use the s e O tools that you and I know that generate that auto, generate these reports and put the agency's name on them, right? Mm-hmm. Because why wouldn't, why wouldn't I wanna use these different tools that just send out reports to make it look like there's work being done? Mm-hmm. But that's not work that's being done. It's just showing rankings that go up and down. Hopefully the numbers are going up every month and if the business is doing well and they're taking care of their customers, even if you do nothing from an ss e o standpoint, those s e o numbers will go up, won't they? Yeah. So don't rely upon rankings. Rankings are nothing compared to traffic. And traffic is nothing compared to sales. 'cause even if you drive more traffic, this one personal injury attorney was, was driving an extra, I forgot the number, but two or 3000 visits a month to their website. People that were looking to become truck drivers. Yeah. And then that pollutes our remarketing audiences. 'cause we pay to remarket against people who come to the site. Right. 'cause all of those could be cases. So we're remarketing everywhere. 'cause of the pixels. Yeah. So s e o start, it sounds fundamental and it doesn't matter if you do Facebook ads or website building or email. Start with the client's goal and what that's worth and then trace it back to what you do. Yeah. Like there's one client, they're a big personal injury. Firm for some reason. We got a lot of these PIs and they're spending 1.7 million a month on Google ads. Yeah. And they're also doing SS e o. They're using Ben Fisher for L S a I love Ben. They're using Steve Wedeman for SS e o I love Steve. And there's more calls that are coming in. The firm has been growing, but they couldn't figure out where this. Cases were coming from because there's 10 different systems that have to be tied together. Hmm. And sometimes the in, in CallRail or, or RingCentral, we can automatically append where that call came from. But sometimes we have to ask 'em. And a lot of what we call digital plumbing wasn't in place 'cause, you know, multiple LSAs and a different website for P P C versus one for the main firm for different reasons. So we had to tie all this stuff together and it was only last week. Outta this firm's 15, 20 years. It's only last week that for the first time we're able to see Marketing Source. So if you're the agency, you've gotta be able to show that what you are doing goes all the way down to the bottom line where there's sales. And that means you often have to go into the call rail or into their C R M or whatnot. What percent of the time Damon are SS e o agencies going all the way down to see that there was a sale that was occurring. And or do you think that's important? I think it's important, but not, you know, most people don't, uh, almost never. It's, it's mind boggling to me when I get on, uh, a lead call and they're with an agency already, and I ask them for basic stuff. What, what are you currently targeting? What's been done today? And. I for, I'm 17 years into doing this and it still blows my mind like the first time. Every time when their reply is, I don't know what we're targeting. I'm like, okay, well what have they done to date? I don't know what we've done to date. They just send me these flashy reports every month that said they did something. It is surprisingly, the majority of the time, and I can't wrap, you know, I have such a hard time with this because even though I see it so often, I can't put myself in that position to rationalize that approach. And so it's such a, it's like a twilight zone to me because I can't, I can't relate to it whatsoever. Yeah. There's so many scams. I wrote an article like 15 years ago and I think it was something along the lines of, I mean we could Google it to find it, but you know how to, how to sell ss e o and I basically, it was a joke 'cause it was revealing the techniques and I said, you know, the best way. To win a client. 'cause these guys are all, all the sales bros are all about selling, selling, selling, right? They don't care about delivery. They just wanna sell. So I'm like, okay, you wanna sell? Here's the easiest way to sell. Before you go into that sales meeting, put up a blog post on a site that at least has a little bit of juice. Like hopefully you have a blog that has some amount of trust and ha optimize it for a long tail keyword. So let's say that this is, uh, you're talking to a. Veterinarian. So then write a blog post that ranks for Boulder, Colorado, golden Retriever, toenail clipping tips. Mm. Right. How difficult do you think that would be? Yeah, not at all. You were difficult to zero, right? Yeah. So write a blog post, make a video about it, rank for it, and then go in there. And say, yeah, you know, with S E O I even came prepared and I know you're a veterinarian. Go ahead and go into Google right now on your computer, on your phone and search Golden Retriever toenail clipping tips. Boulder, Colorado, and like, oh look, we're number one. See? Yeah. Then if that doesn't work, 'cause sometimes it doesn't work, you know, sometimes whatever, sometimes your site has no power. Then buy that on Google. Buy that keyword on Google and Geotarget just to Boulder, Colorado on golden retriever, toenail clipping tips. Exact match, right? And put a dollar a day on that campaign and say, go ahead and search. And then you could, ideally, they do a search on it and they see your ad and they see that you rank number one on that. That's fantastic. That's so funny. Yeah, because it's especially with local like you and I know with local, we're not talking about national golden retriever, toenail clipping tips. We're saying in Boulder, Colorado. How many other people are writing articles about Golden retriever toenail clipping tips? No one. Yeah, no one. So with SS e o, I think so. To be clear, I know it's easy to rag on these ss e o people 'cause it like 95% of it's scam, unfortunately. But here's the good news. You and I know that ranking for local. It's way easier 'cause you only have to beat the other people in Orange County, California that do whatever the thing is. You know, meds, liposuction, orange County and other Santa Ana and Newport Beach. Like that's, that's not competitive, but liposuction, if I like, how much effort would it be to rank on liposuction if I, you know, needed you to, to do that for some reason versus liposuction, small city name. Yeah. Oh, it could, it could be a night and day difference depending on the location. Yeah. 'cause you, you also have to take into consideration the indirect competition. And I think this is something that, um, I don't, I don't really hear a lot of other SEOs talk about. I'm sure plenty of 'em know about it, but I. What this goes into the transparency thing when you're explaining the realistic expectations to your client is you not only have to take into consideration the quantity of results that you're fighting against, but the quality of the big players that are in the way too. I mean, there's so many variables in in which you look at. These results that, um, you know, I don't know where I'm going with this, but I think it's just, at the end of the day, it's, you can't outrun your reputation. Right? And so these, these people that say sells over service, right? And, and just like you said, where it's just, just sell more is, is the solution that won't last forever. And then, and then what are you gonna do? Yeah. Reputation's everything I think. I'd be curious to see if you agree, but I believe that pro-level SS e o is indistinguishable from pr, reputation management, social media, whatever it is, because it's other people that are credible in that particular topic that are talking about you co-creating content like we're doing here. And that's showing up on reputable industry specific websites, not like random websites that happen to be DR. 73. About websites that are authoritative and rank on those keywords in that industry. So if you build those relationships, if you have that expertise and you've done a great job, then your reputation's great and your SEO's great. I don't know how, how someone could have great s e O in a competitive area and not have a great reputation as if me at Google, well, I was at Yahoo, but a lot of my people I trained went to Google as if we couldn't tell. Who is legit and what links were real or not, and if that content was generated by chat PT or you know, if it didn't have, maybe we can't tell if it was autogenerated, but we can certainly tell if it has pieces of experience in there as part of eat. Yeah. You know, you know, maybe what you and I should do is create, um, an ss e o escrow validating company. Oh. I do that all day. Where it's like, you know, we don't want your business, we just want to, you know, we charge a consulting fee to protect you, help vet which your choices are, you know, bring us a three. You're considering, and we'll tell you the pros and cons of all of 'em. There we go. Thanks everybody. I would love to do that. Yeah, that, I mean, I've been doing that for 20 plus years. How many friends have you had coming saying, you know, Hey, you know, can you just like look at my s e o real quick? I, I'm sort of suspicious every day. That's like a, a dude saying, I think my, I think my wife's cheating on me. Do you think like, if they're ha if they're having to ask, I think you know what the answer is, right? Yeah. Every day I had, uh, co comes and goes, uh, in higher quantities, uh, on certain days, but it is nearly, I've had three, it's, we hit record at 1:00 PM today and by 1:00 PM I had three just today that asked me that. Yeah. I've had 35 in the last 10 days. Yeah. Yeah. And it's consistent. Yeah. And I help most people for free. Like there's this one that hit me up literally just 15 minutes ago and I'm looking at their text. Hey Dennis, my name is Chris. I'm a friend of so-and-so. She gave me your number in regards to an SS e o audit I was hoping to get done on a site I'm working on. And then there's some specifics there. I'd love to chat if you're free. Anytime. Yeah, I'll, when we're done, I'll call him back. I'll take a look at the site and in three minutes I'll tell him what's going on. Yeah. Yeah, because you and I are mechanics, we pop open the hood, we take a look, we hook up the diagnostics, and we're like, okay, here's what's actually going on with the car. Why don't we talk about, you know, you, you just made the comment that you'll, you'll usually help 'em for free. Um, as do I. And a lot of times the, the industry will tell you to do otherwise. It's, it's charged. They're sales oriented, and yes, your time is valuable and like, I'm not gonna get on a whole hour call. I'll just do a, a look at a couple quick things and because I think that, I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I think s e o is, is now verticalized. It's better to, if, if I know a lot about liposuction, I can do li, I can do ss e o for liposuction, doctors all over the place. I'll just have a competitive advantage over all the other people like. Over people like you and me that are just like good generally, but we also know certain categories. You've been doing 17 years, you know, a number of categories by now. But I think that when people come in and I do a quick audit, like any of us can do this, looking at the basics. Mm-hmm. It's easy to do the analysis. Doing the work is different. I'll pass them to someone that I know, like I'll pass 'em to you. Mm-hmm. Or I'll pass them to someone that's really good in that particular industry for real estate agents. For insurance brokers, for e-commerce, for like whatever, right? And the days when 25 years ago, you, you, you could be a generalist, but I feel like you have to be vertically specific if you really want to be world class. It's, it's literally minutes. Yeah. I mean, yeah, why not? Why put the berry up? Yeah. Literally, you're right. Two minutes I can, I can audit someone at two. And I've done this like we did one last week for the city of San Francisco and the small Business development center, which is this nationwide thing, part of the S B A and people were signing up. We had a whole bunch of people on Zoom and I just did audit after audit after audit. People love doing it. We've been doing it now for 18 months 'cause they started it up in the middle of Covid and we've been doing it every month. It's great. Yeah. Free audits. Why not? Not selling anything, but people say, oh, can you recommend someone to, you know, my website's on Wix. Okay. Go to Upwork and use the job postings that we have on converting and, and here's the job posting. This is my website. It's on Wix. I wanna move to WordPress. Here's another guy's website. Don't copy it exactly. But can you make it like that and host it on WP Engine? And I wanted to meet this other criteria. We have website, we have criteria. You can literally Google it, like website audit checklist, blitz metrics, you'll see. And, and it also has to fit this criteria. How much? $300. Okay, cool. This guy's 95% and has 200 ratings, and his earnings are $200,000. Like he's in Pakistan. Okay, fine. Sure. $300, let's do it. Right? Yeah. And we teach people how to hire VAs and how to hire people in Upwork, in Fiverr. But the data that you get is, is infinitely, it's worth more, more than that. I mean, you're, you're buying so much wisdom in such a compressed amount of time to make a long-term decision. Yeah. And so if it's a, it's a Fortune 500 company, I'll say, okay, it's a power hour, go to blitz metrics.com/powerhour and we have an onboarding process because they don't want just three minutes of my time. I'll give anybody three minutes of my time. 'cause it's just, it's too rude to say no and I'm important or whatever. I'll just give you three minutes of my time. Fine. Right? Mm-hmm. I'll prerecord it so it doesn't require being live. Yep. But if it's a, well, yeah, it's a well-known company, then I'm like, yeah, it's 15 hundreds, nothing for you. Mm-hmm. So we'll do that. And we had one two weeks ago and they bought that and they said, yeah, you know, we really are struggling. Can you help us? The s e o agency is playing games and like, yep. I already know what they're saying. And now we have a large contract. Yeah. So the 1500 led to, it was basically like a paid sales call. Yeah. If you're an agency, know that when you do, when you do it the right way, you just, you provide value, whether it's free or charged, or you know, you will drive more real clients because they trust you. Yep. And, and from my perspective, uh, I've talked about how there's only three types of content consumers. So the, the, and this is why you should give away your, your content for free or, or give your time as as availability permits. So consumer number one is the person that takes your advice and runs. Okay. Well they were never a client anyway, so you didn't lose them, but now you increased your reputation and your reach. Right? And then content consumer number two is somebody that may not need what you offer now, but knows somebody that does or they come back later, or three is they buy. Mm-hmm. So from my perspective, you have no losing reason to not just give away. All the answers for free, right? 'cause I want the person that values time more than money. So if, if they can implement it, I'm happy they made progress with it. Otherwise, you know, we, we, we establish trust, we establish credibility, and then when it makes sense, it, it just eliminates the sales walls. They would've been a horrible client to begin with. So we call those free tarts, right? You're a D I Y, you're gonna try to do it yourself. Save every penny. You know, you go and get your own groceries. I have the freaking ghost groceries delivered to me from Costco. I'm not gonna be a driver of like, I, you know, so those pe you give away your information for free because you don't want those kinds of clients to come to you. 'cause they're just gonna complain. They're nightmare clients. They're gonna, they're cheap. You know, you all. But I can get that for way less from the Philippines. Yeah, you go do that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, I think you and I could talk indefinitely, um, about a variety of things, especially this in this, this topic of the industry. Um, now, now as we get kind of closer to wrapping up, let's, let's kinda take the opposite approach. Um, so we've kind of, we've kind of beat up on our own industry a little bit. Um, let's, let's kinda help the aspiring, um, Agency owners with some, some wins, right? So we've said, don't do these things, which I guess imply the opposite of do these other things. But, um, you know, how did you start to build up your reputation? How did you start to get your foot in the door? How did you start to earn the trust of people? So we can kind of maybe end with a couple little tips there on the high note. So I believe that, you know, when I was a, a young adult and I. I didn't even speak English, you know, until I was seven. I always felt that I wasn't good enough and I felt that all these other people were so much bigger and better than me. And I remember going to Pubcon and Kevin Lee of did it was speaking. And this guy started analytics company. He's well known in the world of SS e o, and I thought, wow, this guy's like a God. I would love to be able to do SS e o and all this, but I don't think I'm like him. He's so well spoken and just everything about him. I just worshiped this guy. Now, I was an engineer at Yahoo and I was a great engineer, but I didn't know how to communicate and. I didn't know if I could make promises to the client. 'cause you know, I wanted to make money as an agency 'cause on my way, you know, as I was about, about to leave Yahoo. And, but I didn't, you know, I knew I'd work really hard and I knew I was honest and ethical, but I, I, I didn't wanna go out there and just start making promises 'cause there's a chance I couldn't deliver. So, you know, I would tend to not say anything or tend to not. I put myself out there 'cause I thought all these other people are out there just aggressive, fast talking salespeople didn't wanna be like that. 'cause I heard so much the garbage, like what we talked about. And then I realized, you know, there are clients, if you find the right clients that they will, it's like night and day. So when we had Quiznos as a client, Hmm. They were a fantastic client. They weren't the nightmare where they're, every day they're like checking their rankings and asking what's going on. And they paid us a lot of money, and I find that if you're an aspiring s e o and you're growing, it's yes, obviously learn from people like Damon and keep improving and work hard and have great operations and all that stuff, but I think client selection is the most important part. When you have the right client and you're transparent with them and you have a relationship with them, and you, you, you go out to dinner with them, maybe if you could meet them, right? It's just so much better and it results in retention and you feel good about what you're doing. And then you have 'em on your podcast as you start to have results and they love to talk about you. Like we did this for the Golden State Warriors, the basketball team. And I loved working with the Golden State Warriors. They treated us so well. I got to meet Steph Curry and hang out in the locker room and go to the playoff games. They paid us a lot of money. And here's the, the thing that may seem too far away for most younger ss, e o people, I put them on stage. I was given the opportunity to speak, to be a keynote speaker at one of the largest conferences in Europe. The last year's keynote was Richard Branson. And they wanted me to be keynote, and I said, no, no. Instead of me being the keynote, I wanna put the head of marketing from the Golden State Warriors, the very popular basketball team as the keynote, and I'll introduce 'em. Right? And that worked wonders. There was a case study that was done by Facebook on us. So your reputation carries everything. The relationships that you have, interviewing your clients, interviewing other people that are competitors, you know, maybe Damon or I are competitors. Not really. 'cause there's plenty out there for all of us. So by having the abundance mindset that enables us to be able to share what we've learned and elevate other people like, wow, Damon just wrote this great article. I'm gonna share it. I don't if he generates more clients because of that, that is fantastic. It doesn't have to come to me. Most of my posts that I put out there on Facebook are elevating other people and how awesome they are. I think that's hard to do if you're small and you're not making money. You're like, oh, I want every dollar that comes my way 'cause I need every penny to pay rent and whatnot. I get it. But if you change your mindset, this is the last I'll say about this whole like motivational speaker walk on Kohl's, Tony Robbins kind of thing. But I found if, and I wish I knew this 20 years ago, that. If I spent more effort honoring and elevating other people in the industry that will drive me more of the right kind of clients that I want, even without me talking about my expertise or what I know or how good I am. I closed five clients last week on SS e o pieces because I was elevating, you can go back to my Facebook mm-hmm. And figure out what it was. But by elevating other people that are well-known. Industry. I interviewed yesterday on my podcast, one of the top content marketing experts, and she's a big deal at LinkedIn that's driving my reputation up. People buy based on your reputation. It's all based on your perceived authority. That's why clients buy if you're a sales minded person. The perceived authority gives you the opportunity to get the right client. And then, like you said, Damon, those three, three categories, when you do the audit, figure out which one they are. Mm-hmm. And if they're great, then you have to deliver. As long as you can deliver, then you're great. Right? And so I approached from the standpoint of I learned how to deliver first as a search engine engineer. So I feel like Damon, I'm credible to talk about ss e o 'cause I'm one of the few people that actually worked at the search engine and you know, like I have a good opinion about this thing. I have some credibility here. And so now it's easy for me to audit. It's, I've done this enough times, I've learned from, from other people. So I would hang out in, in like London. Singapore with Rand Fishkin and his mom, Jillian, who's the one who's really running the show. Mm-hmm. And you know, we're putting together s e o presentations, we're hanging out with the conference organizers, and I realized these are these people that I thought were gods, were humans too. Kevin Lee, who I told you was the guy I worshiped before he, he invited me on his podcast twice. And I said, I said to him on the podcast, I can't believe you can even Google it. And see, this is what I said. I can't believe I'm on, I'm hanging out with you, Kevin. I mean, this is a guy, like when you were done speaking on stage and then all the people would come up to you, I, and I'd never get a chance to talk to you like, oh, one day I'd love to talk to Kevin Lee. And here I, here you are reaching out to me to be on your podcast. What the heck is going on here? He said, no, no, no, Dennis, I'm just honored to be spending time with you. And then he said all these great things about me. And I said, this is being recorded, isn't it? Yeah. But maybe, you know, if you're doing ss e o and, and you feel like you don't know as much as Damon or whatnot, you know, sometimes you, you have to step back and look at how much you know. So when you interview someone or someone else interviews you, you realize like, oh wow. I actually have come a long way. I've actually learned a lot. That puts you in a, in a position of gratitude and you honor your clients and you're not worried about poaching, you're not worried about other people that do s e o I help other people that do s e o for a living. I'm, you do that too, Damon. Mm-hmm. Does that hurt your business at all in any way? Not at all. It helps your business. So we have a lot of clients do that. We do s e o for, and still I'm talking about Damon and I'm sending people to Damon and it doesn't hurt me at all. Yeah. And, and it, it only, it only helps. And, and when Dennis says he, 90% of his posts are about lifting other people up. He, he's very literal. It's. Probably 90% or, or plus. And it's just, you know, it's not necessarily contact creation, but documentation of Yeah. What you're doing and the engagements and the people that you're connecting with. Um, and, and I actually just made a post on LinkedIn this morning about, um, on the same topic, there's somebody who I've been mentoring and. I send them business. Right? Yeah. Because then it helps the the person that I connected them with to finally get somebody that can support them morally and ethically, and then it helps a young aspiring entrepreneur to build their business up and then they're going to reciprocate the other way when, when it's a client that's a little bit outta their league. Yeah, but it's a, it's amazing to watch for, for me, the, the part that I find most fascinating, obviously, yeah, sales is great. Um, growing is great, but the Wild Card is, is always what I find the most fascinating and rewarding, where you get a relationship that you didn't expect or an opportunity to, to meet or do a thing. You know, just like you said, you, you got to go, um, in the locker room, meet Steph Curry, just like those things that. You, you didn't have on your to-do list. But then when it happened, it was such an amazing thing. That's what I find the most rewarding about serving and helping others and, and just being moral and transparent. Yeah, serendipity. And you build these relationships over time and they start to unlock other things. And in finance, this is called a, a real option. So by having the Golden State Warriors as a client, we then were able to work with the N F L. Yeah, and the N B A and all these other sports teams came calling, and I never would've realized. I guess in hindsight it's like, well, yeah, obviously you're promoting how awesome the Golden State Warriors are. Facebook wrote a case study. Mark Zuckerberg mentions you on stage, you know, and how we got a 39 r every dollar got $39 back of what we invested. Of course that would've happened, but you never at, in the moment, you're not thinking about that. Mm-hmm. So really when you, when you have great relationships that for you young s e o people focus on the relationships, focus, make sure your communication is great. The ss e o people have a reputation for being geeks that don't communicate. Be personable. You, you sent me some cookies, Damon. Wow, that was so awesome that that was serendipitous. I enjoyed that. And that that's just building relationship. Checking in on people, clicking like on their posts and delivering great work leads to so much more. The referrals that you get from your existing clients are worth more than any marketing you could ever do. You do a good job of that. You never need to do marketing. Uh, I, I'm 17 years in and this is the first year I've considered spending a dollar on advertising. So the entirety of this multimillion dollar business has built, uh, purely on reputation and results because you've earned it. You have the perceived authority and you have the actual authority. Yeah. Well, Dennis, um, I appreciate, uh, that I, I just love talking to you. You got a good vibe. Um, it's good to be in company with somebody else who's transparent and straightforward. Um, I did not pay Dennis to say kind things about me, but I greatly appreciate them. Are you giving me a commission at all? No, I, because 'cause I believe in you. Yeah. And you've, you've taken the effort and I've taken the effort to build the relationship over years and people can tell. Yep. Yeah. And then once you get in, as you just started talking about with Golden State Warriors and then other professional sports teams, when you get in with somebody, you know, I'm not gonna refer anybody to somebody that I won't put my name behind. And I'm sure you feel the same way, right? Yep. And so when you get in and you establish these relationships with people at high level, they, they have a, a. A, a circle of trust, right. That you get exposed to once you establish your authority and your ability to deliver. So, I mean, there's so many different, to kind of wrap this up on the, the thing of, you know, you can't outrun your reputation and you can't outsell your reputation. You can probably get pretty far in the beginning by focusing on sales and not reputation. Yeah. Uh, but eventually you hit that. Amplifier of, of reputation where it begins to go tenfold times tenfold, times tenfold. That you couldn't spend, I mean, you couldn't have bought your way into a relationship with the Golden State Warriors. No. Because they get three calls a day from people that are offering ss, e o, and P p C and all kinds of magic promises. Yeah. You know, funny. Um, I got to work with, uh, Utah Jazz on their retail division, team store. Same thing. Came from a relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're, if you're a player in the game, you wanna be here long term, focus on relationships. If you just wanna make some quick money now focus on sales, but you'll, you'll be run out and then whatever the next new thing is, you'll do that in a year or two. But if you wanna be like Damon relationships all day, I know like people say that all day, but I, I promise you that's the thing. It's not sales calls. It's not the cold email. Magic blasting using ai. That's not it. Yeah, Dennis, you blitz metrics. Uh, how can people get ahold of you, learn more about you? They can Google me and they can see a full knowledge panel and whatever your favorite channel is, and I respond to everybody. It's not a va, it's me. It might take me a few days, but I, you know, LinkedIn's probably the best way to reach me from a business standpoint. Well, Dennis, you blitz metrics, Google m Dennis, last name, y u. It's been a pleasure looking forward to meeting up again and doing our thing wherever that is next time. Awesome Damon. Appreciate you

I've long been one to say to someone who's paralyzed about the direction they see their lives going in or goals they want to achieve – experiences they want to have – to say, “Why not “and?” After they look at me kinda funny, I'll explain. “Why can't you be a plumber and a painter? A mother and an ad exec? That's what this week's SelfWork guest has accomplished. She's an internal medicine doctor and she's a comic. A stand-up comic at that. Named by Refinery29 as one of the 50 Female Stand-Up Comedians You Need To Know", Priyanka Wali is a stand-up comic who also believes strongly in mind/body connection and the importance of fear in true transformation. I think you'll love this conversation! She's also the co-host of HypochondriActor with Sean Hayes (yes the guy from Will and Grace…). I know you'll enjoy talking about her story and how you might use it as motivation for your own! After all, why can't life be an “and?” Advertisers' Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just click here! Make sure you use the code "selfwork10" to check out free product Click HERE for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 - with bonus product with your subscription! Episode Transcript:   Speaker 2: Dr. Margaret This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I'm a clinical psychologist, and I started this podcast just about seven years ago to extend the walls of my practice to many of you, some of you very interested in therapy or psychological issues, but also perhaps those of you who are a bit skeptical about the whole thing. So, I have a great interview for today and before beginning, here's a message and an offer from AG1, the Greens mix I take every morning to get my day started on the right track. Okay... Occasionally I miss a day, gotta say that, but I try to remember every day 'cause it makes a difference. AG1 Advertisement:  Our next partner is AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I drink it literally every day. I gave AG1 a try because I wanted a single solution that supports my entire body and covers my nutritional bases every day. I wanted better gut health, a boost in energy immune system support. I take it in the morning before starting my day, and I make sure and leave it out for my husband because he tends to forget. I love knowing that I'm starting my day so incredibly well and I wouldn't change a thing because it's really helped me the last two or three years I've taken it. And here's a fact. Since 2010, they've improved their formula 52 times in the pursuit of making this nutrition supplement possible and the best it can be. So if you wanna take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1 and get a free one-year supply of Vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkAG1.com/selfwork, and that's a new link. DrinkAG1.com/selfwork. Check it out. Dr. Margaret I've long been one to say to someone who's paralyzed about the direction they see their lives going in or goals they wanna achieve, experiences they wanna have... They always say, "Well, I've gotta have this or this, but I've gotta make the perfect choice. I've gotta try this or this." And my question to them is, "Why isn't it an "and"? And after they look at me, kind of funny, I'll explain, "wWhy can't you be a plumber AND a painter, a mother AND an ad exec? We don't have to limit ourselves. We can be "AND",  not this or this. And that's what our guest has accomplished. She's an internal medicine doctor and she's a comic, a standup comic, by the way, who was named by Refinery 29 as one of the top female standup comedians that you need to know. Her name is Priyanka Wali. And she's the co-host of HypochondriActor with Sean Hayes, the guy from Will and Grace that probably a lot of you know, It's a great, great podcast and I'm delighted to have her on SelfWork as a true "And" - er . Here's one more sponsor message. This one from BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough. I use it every night just like I use AG1e in the morning. And that's my own AND,  I guess, Magnesium Breakthrough Advertisement: Hey guys, I wanna share with you that recently I've been working on some very important projects that have very short deadlines, as always, right? It seems everything today is a S A P. Anyway, I have not been able to keep up with all of my self-care routine. I certainly haven't had breaks to have proper meals, and I'm drinking way too much ice tea. I was starting to get really stressed out when I remembered that the magnesium breakthrough I take every night is also a great support for stress management. And I'd kind of forgotten that. In fact, magnesium is responsible for over 300 body reactions. And magnesium breakthrough is the only magnesium formula that delivers all seven different forms of magnesium. I didn't know there were seven forms, one of them being feeling more calm, centered, and in control of our stress. If you are trying to balance life demands, give it a try. Trust me, your mind and your body will thank you for it. What you can do is visit mag breakthrough.com/ self-work and order now. Oh, in addition to the discount you get by using promo code self-work 10. So that's different self-work. 10. They're also amazing gifts with purchase. That's why I love shopping it by optimizers. Again, go to mag breakthrough.com/ self-work to get your magnesium breakthrough and find out this month's gift with purchase. Episode 356 with Priyanka Wali.  Realize you can support self-work by supporting our sponsors. And now, Priyanka Wally, Speaker 2: Dr. Margaret I started off my morning by listening to your comedy routine . Speaker 3: Dr. Priyanka Wali Oh, which one? Which bit did you check out? Speaker 2:  the one on your Website? Speaker 3: The one? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: And I laughed. I just thought, I've known some in and out guys. Speaker 3: . Oh man. Yeah, that takes me back. You know, I haven't, I haven't, you know, after the pandemic hit, you know, obviously comedy changed and performing in person totally changed. And I remember going back on stage in 2021, so, you know, we were kind of used to reentry, we were opening up a little bit, and the vibe was just really different. And so I've, I've slowly been getting my feet Speaker 2: Thought about that. How was it different, Priyanka? Speaker 3: Well, first of all, you know, having, it was an outdoor show and most people were wearing masks. But even if you're doing an indoor show, you, it's hard to see people's facial expressions if they're masked. Right? So that, you know, to me, standup has always been a relationship between the, the performer and the audience. It's a connection. And when you, you know, cover the face for obvious important reasons, safety reasons it, it sort of breaks that connection. And so what I found was that I enjoyed comedy, less enjoyed performing less after the pandemic. And I actually took a break from comedy and I sort of went back to like, "Okay, what does bring me joy? Like, what is this really about?" And I went to France and I actually studied clowning with Philippe Goer, who's a world renowned clowning expert. And I went back to the basics of like, okay, physical comedy, like comedy with your body and not just your neck up mind voice. And then I sort of came into singing parody songs. And that's kind of the new stuff that I'm working on now. Really? Yeah. So I'm taking my comedy and I'm turning it into more parody songs, and I've released a few small clips on Instagram. But I'm planning on releasing a longer video at some point. So that's kind of what I'm working on. And that's like part of the transformation as an artist, which is, it's an incredible journey. Speaker 2: Well, you know and I wanna, I wanna back up and we, we kinda started in the middle, didn't we? Or I did. Yeah. Yeah. And so I wanna back up and, and talk about how you got to be, but you know, I'm a huge advocate of, of, AND kind of lives. I am this AND I'm that, and I'm something else. Mm-Hmm. . So I love that you're living your life that way. Oh, thank you. I also listened to the last podcast that you and Sean did. Mm-Hmm. . And I thought the story about your either great-grandfather or your grandfather was so touching that Wali is actually the Arabic name. Mm-Hmm. healer or helper. Speaker 3: Yeah. Helper. Helper. Or like friend, friend of man, helper of man. Yeah. Yeah. It was a name bestowed upon us. Yeah. Speaker 2: Incredible. Speaker 3: . Yeah. Yeah. When I, when I learned that for the first time, and it sort of changed my relationship with my own name, you know, I always thought I didn't really have a relationship, but then once I realized it was sort of like, gifted, I was like, Wow, that's, that's, there was an identity shift and you know, there's a sense of humility and gratitude as well. Speaker 2: You know, when you hear stories like that. My grandmother was named Emma Clayton Robinson, and I remember asking one time why was, why was her middle name Clayton? And the story was that I'm from the south, I'm from Arkansas, and her mother and father's home was taken over by the Yankees during the Civil War by a General Clayton. Speaker 3: Okay. Speaker 2: He was so kind to them that they, when my grandmother was born, she was named Emma Clayton Robinson. Speaker 3: Wow. Speaker 2: And Clayton has become one of our family names, which is just so, I don't know, it adds something to your understanding of your family and what has happened, and of course, Speaker 3: Right. Speaker 2: It's just, I don't know, there's something about that kind of tradition or g legacy that's just fascinating to me. Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm curious, do you know what, what was the name prior to Clayton before that? Speaker 2: Well, no, she had not been. She was born and then, and then they named her Emma Clayton Robinson. Speaker 3: Wow. Wow. Yeah. There's so many complexities to that story, because on one hand, this, this person was the oppressor. They came in and they took, you know, your family home and your land. Right. And yet they were a kind, oppressor, kind enough for us to name them after them. It's like, there's so many nuances to that, that story. It's, it's very complex. It certainly could, would be totally justifiable to bring up a lot of different set of feelings around that. Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. So I wanna find out about your journey. You are a physician. Mm-Hmm. , you're an internal medicine physician. Mm-Hmm. . And I think you also have training in OB obesity, is that right? Speaker 3: Correct. Yeah. Double board certified. Mm-Hmm. double board certified. Speaker 2:  And so, and, and then, and you know, you, you've laughed with your co-host Sean, about I really wanna be just a doctor on tv and Yeah. Speaker 3: , I just want a small rule on Grey's Anatomy. Is that too much to ask? I mean, come on. Speaker 2: So I would love to hear you know, there's a lot of doctors in your family and you told that story, but Yeah. How, how did you decide to become a physician? And are you, are, are you American born? Are you, were you born in India or were you born in America? Speaker 3: Yeah, great question. So I was born in the United States, so I'm Kary Pundit. So my family originates from Northern Kashmir, and that region was actually affected by genocide as recent as 1991. And so that led to a diaspora and immigration all over the world. And my family chose the United States. And so I was born in Los Angeles, but I actually spent some early formative years going back and forth between India and the United States up until I was age three. And so, you know, my childhood upbringing you know, my parents were doctors, their siblings are doctors. Their kids are doctors. I mean, and, and the lineage goes further up the chain. So healing was really, we would not have normal dinner discussions. You know, like the, the dinner table discussions were about, like, the cases my dad had and like, you know, all this sort of preventive medicine stuff. And so I joke, you know, like I sort of came out of the womb holding a stethoscope. It was something that I lived, breathed. It wasn't until I went to college that I was like, oh, people can do other things. You know what I mean? And I always had an artistic side to me. And so I always loved performing arts and creative writing, and that's always been a, a very big part of my sort of soul's energy. And at the same time, the science had also would come to me quite easily. And so I found myself you know, going through the pre-med classes and I actually was accepted into a program coming out of high school called a Baccalaureate MD program. It no longer exists, but it was a program where you basically got accepted into medical school coming out of high school. Really? It was a, yeah, it was a very competitive program. They only took, I think like 12 or 15 people all across the United States. And so I knew, I knew out of high school that I was gonna go to med school. Yeah. And I can't say honestly though, that that was what I wanted. I think there was a part of me that really was you know, I loved creative arts. I loved performing. And I couldn't see a path if I were to pursue medicine. But I, I grew up in a very traditional Indian family. Like, I had a tremendous amount of pressure from my parents. Like, no, you have to go to med school. Like, that's gonna happen. Yeah. And so, you know, again, because the science would come to me easily, I decided to, to sort of give it a go and give it a chance. You know, in hindsight I wish I had taken some time off in between undergrad and med school. 'cause I went straight through. And I, I don't necessarily recommend that. I think if I had had more time to sort of develop and simmer as a human being you know, I, I wasn't really a human being by the time I went to HU Med School. I was just this concept, you know, I was so undeveloped as a person. Speaker 2: So you followed the structure that your parents wanted you to follow, and really hadn't had a whole lot of autonomy about Speaker 3: That. Totally. Yeah. And, you know, it would come out in these different ways. Like I, you know, when I was a med student, I joined this local improv troupe in East Los Angeles, you know, and I would have these little pockets of things that I would do to create balance. Sure. And it's funny now because the work that I do as a, as a physician, I, I am very passionate about it now, but I think it's because I've taken much more of a an an identity that this is part of social justice activism in terms of like, what is going on right now with the current medical paradigm and you, what needs to change. I feel like very compelled now to be involved with this and to be a part of this. Because at the end of the day, we're all connected. And I feel like I was given a set of privileges by being born into a family that, you know, was all healthcare providers on some aspect. And I feel like it would really be a, a waste to, to squander those gifts essentially. Mm-Hmm. . And so it's funny 'cause now I, I really love what I do and the way I've sort of built my life. I mean, I'm definitely not working like a traditional medical doctor at like, you know, a major hospital or anything like that. I mean, I have my own private practice and I, the way I think about healing, I would say it's, it's more consistent with like a new paradigm as opposed to the older paradigm. You know, in terms of integrated, Speaker 2: More holistic, Speaker 3: More holistic integrative, you know, thinking about issues from a mind body perspective as opposed to the current, you know, the current paradigm is like, you have a heart problem, you go to a heart doctor, you have a kidney problem, you go to a kidney doctor, you have a mind problem, you go to the mind doctor. It's like that. It's very disconnected and, you know, there's no more like general doctors anymore. I mean, it's like, it's a rare dying breed. And so I am really trying to bring a callback to, Hey, let's look at the whole person. Let's treat the whole person. This is not just a mind issue or a body issue. This is a mind body issue. And essentially we are all mind body spirits. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Couldn't agree more. So I was always interested, and I remember asking my sort of, she's my manager you know, why does Priyanka wanna come on SelfWork? I mean, why does she wanna come on a mental health podcast? And I, I wanna ask you that question. I was so intrigued that, you know, and it sounds like it's very may maybe tied into this, well, one, of course, you're an example of someone who is saying, don't be, don't be governed by, you know, what other people expect of you. But make sure that you're, you're zoning in and really expressing the parts of yourself that bring you joy and, and that kind of thing. Which I think is wonderful. I didn't know if you had any history with depression or anxiety or anything like that, but it also sounds like maybe it's tied in with more of this holistic view of things. Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I think you're hitting the nail on the head. So, so yeah. I, I actually, I've talked about this publicly. I think there was an article in Women's Health Magazine where I actually was very depressed in medical school. In fact, I didn't realize that I had the signs and symptoms of clinical depression until my psychiatry rotation in medical training Oh. . Where I was interviewing people. Yeah. I was interviewing people who were severely clinically depressed. And I was walking away from these interviews with individuals and I was like, there's really no difference between me and this person that like, probably needs to be hospitalized. And you know, I, it was then that I, yeah. So it was then that I realized that, you know, I had severe clinical depression and I needed to be on antidepressants for a period of time in medical training. And what, what in hindsight coming out of that, what really was going on is that I was in a very difficult situation. The medical system, the medical training system, it's actually a very oppressive system. And I didn't have the best coping skills. I didn't even know what therapy was at the time. And fortunately that's when I learned about treatments, like cognitive behavioral therapy. And I started therapy. I saw a psychiatrist and was able to get the help that I needed. And then when I graduated medical school, my depression symptoms went away and I was able to get off the meds. And I haven't had a relapse of depression to that severity since then. Speaker 2: So it was probably very situational and that kind of thing. It was Speaker 3: Absolutely situational. Yeah. Speaker 2: I have the fancy title of adjunct professor at University of Arkansas Medical School. Mm-Hmm. Medical School of Medical Sciences, I think it's called mm-hmm. . And I laughed and said, I don't even get a parking place with that. So Speaker 3: . Yeah. Yeah. And Speaker 2: I, I teach a course that's, you know, an hour and a half in one semester or so, it's very little about psychotherapy to medical students. Mm-Hmm. who are psych psychiatry rotation. And one of my major questions is, what do y'all think therapy is? And they just kind of stare at me. Oh, yeah. Like, what are you talking about? You know, and Oh yeah, well now we've learned that this is what you do with this person and this is, and I said, you know what? You gotta throw all that out. 'cause That's not really true. Mm-Hmm. mm-hmm. . But it, it's fascinating how that the, unfortunately the medical school schools still don't really incorporate a whole lot of mental health knowledge and understanding to physicians. Speaker 3: You know, I really appreciate you naming this because it's something I talked about. I think on one of the podcast episodes, you know, in medicine we are sort of taught that if you can't objectively identify the cause of someone's issues, like for example, if you can't get lab work Right. That can corroborate or a CAT scan or something like that, you we're, we're literally taught, or at least back when I was in med school, I was taught that you need to conclude that this is a psychosomatic issue. And once you label someone as having a psychosomatic issue, you kind of wash your hands of it and move on. What the deficit in education right now that's happening in the system, I think physicians especially need to be taught the next step. Right. If you're gonna label someone as having a psychosomatic issue, the next training is understanding, okay, well what is the emotion that's linking to that physical symptom? Speaker 2: Well, the trauma or the Yeah, exactly. The, what's going on? Name what's going on with the patient. I, I love it. I did my dissertation yeah, my dissertation on conversion disorders, Speaker 3: So, okay. Sure. Speaker 2: I was, you know, bridging the gap between, for those listeners who don't know what conversion disorders are, they are disorders that are, that are psychologically based, but can can mimic mm-hmm. Speaker 3: Speaker 2: Make true medical problems. And I did mine on Pseudoseizures mm-hmm. , which was someone looks like they're having a seizure, but there's no actual abnormal EEG activity, so, right. Although they can be mixed anyway, enough about that. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I'm always I'm so glad that more, at least there's a movement toward physicians moving there's a movement toward moving , Speaker 3:, a lot of movement, a lot Speaker 2: Of movement, lot of movement toward integrative, or that's kind of this kind of medicine. 'cause I just think it's vital. Speaker 3: Oh, not only is it vital, Margaret, I I actually am at the point in my career where I am sort of, if anyone's gonna call themselves a physician or even a healer for that matter. Yeah. and they don't have a basic understanding of this type of education. They actually have an incomplete education of how healing actually works in human beings. And so what I would love to see more of is more education for medical students, especially helping them understand how to name emotions and the effects that that has on the human body. Speaker 2: Sure. Sure. Because isn't there research, in fact, I've read some research that says the brain actually doesn't, can't tell the difference between physical pain and emotional pain. Speaker 3: That's correct. Actually, yes. When we experience emotional pain, it activates the same receptors of the brain. This is through functional MRI studies, it activates the same receptors of the brain as if we were to experience physical pain. Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all we're naming here again, is this is more and more evidence of how we need to move towards a mind body model, a model in medicine. And I do believe this will be the next paradigm where we start to look at human beings as mind bodies and not just bodies with minds. Speaker 2: Right, right. Bio psychosocial, Speaker 3: Spiritual. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Speaker 2: Okay, so let's switch gears. Okay.  Talk about the clown part of you, or the funny part of you, the comedic part of you. You have a wonderful podcast yourself that's very, very popular. It's called, let me see if I can not This Hypo Dry actor Hypo Speaker 3: Hypochondriac. hypochondria. I'm so Speaker 2: Used to saying the word hypori, called it . Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. We just call it hypo for sure. Speaker 2: And your partner is, your partner in crime, Speaker 3: Is the lovely Sean Hayes, who you may know from a small show called Will and Grace tiny little show. Yeah. Speaker 2: In fact, my trainer, I was working out this morning and I was told him who I was, who I was interviewing. He goes it did you say that her co her cohort, you know, her partner is, is Sean Hayes. And I said, yeah. Oh, I can't wait to tell my girlfriend that you're interviewing someone . Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Sean's darling. I love working with him. It's, it's been a pleasure. And I don't know when this episode's getting released, but he's currently on Broadway at the moment. So I do, I do miss him because he is, he's very, very busy on Broadway. But it has been just an absolute joy working alongside with him. Oh, great. He brings, you're, oh, thank you. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. It's, it's so easy to work with someone who's so lighthearted as Sean, and he brings just a lot of joy and humor and, you know, in on the podcast we're talking about, we can talk about some pretty serious things, pretty heavy things. And, you know, that that lightness that he brings, it allows us to kind of go to places where maybe we wouldn't necessarily be able to go if this was a more serious kind of heavy podcast. Mm-Hmm. , you know, it's so important when you're interviewing celebrities or anyone who's willing to share something vulnerable about creating a safe space so that people feel like they can share. And so I feel really grateful to be working alongside him. Speaker 2: And you answer questions from listeners about, is it only medical issues that they call in about? Or is it Yes. Speaker 3: Yeah. So people like to call in and share their medical stories. And it's been also, that has been a very, very humbling experience. You know, the, the callers that call in and the, the depths of their shares, you know, as the show has progressed, the shares have been more and more vulnerable, which we so appreciate. And what I love about the shares is that people will many times call in and say, you know, I thought I was the only person that had blah, blah, blah, but after listening to this episode, I realize I'm not, and I have it too. And this is my experience. And that's, to me is what this is really about. You know, connecting us, reminding us that we're all one people. We're one species. We're human beings, and we, we feel the same things and emotions do connect us. And I think that's so important to remember in this time of such divisiveness Speaker 2: On SelfWork. I also love to, to answer questions from listeners. It's one of my most favorite things to do. And so it's your right. I just feel like there's so many, you know, there's this, again, research will say that there's this explosion of loneliness, and it's true and right. Staring at our screens instead of talking right to another. And so there's this sense of, I must be the only one feeling this. So, so since, since the pandemic happened, what are you doing with you? You said you went to France and you, you're doing this clowning and that kind of thing. Tell us about that part of you. Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I think in order for me to stay balanced, it is very important that I engage in some kind of play. Yeah. And it can be formal play, like going to study clowning with a renowned clowning expert. But on a day-to-day, like every day, you know, I can't fly to France to study clowning . I do spend a, a significant part of my day. Like, I dance every day. I try and do some kind of movement, you know, especially before I start to see individuals in my private practice. You know, I may put on a song and just move my body and I get really funky and really weird, and I'll growl. I love growling and I love putting my yoga mat out and just like rolling on the floor and just like, moving and arching my back and acting like a total fool. I mean, just like completely just like the, just an animal. But to me, I, it, it's important for me to do that every day. You know, I think we forget that we, human beings, we're animals and we're, we're, so we have to engage in somatic practices, otherwise we'll be very disconnected from our bodies. And in my own healing journey, I've noticed that the more I'm in my body, the more present I am, and the more I can give, the more I can share sort of the gifts that I have. And we all have gifts to share. And I've just noticed that the more I engage in somatic practices, it's easier for me to tap into that and play. I also consider rest to be a really important facet. I mean resting, going slow, taking naps, anything that just, again, keeps the body in flow. Mm-Hmm. . And so yeah, I'm, I'm generally a very silly person. and . Speaker 2: You know, people always ask me, well, how do you do something so serious all day long? And I think I laugh all the time with people, right? Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, Speaker 2: There's a lot to not, we're not laughing. I'm not laughing at people. I'm laughing with people that I see. We find things too, to laugh about because it's so important for them to laugh. And it's important for me to laugh. Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Yeah. And laughing is so, you know, there's studies to show that laughter literally will lower cortisol levels in the blood. It'll lower inflammatory markers. I mean, it's, and it's, it's just a, a really great feeling. And I think that's why while I was a resident working 80 hours a week, sure. I gravitated towards standup comedy and performing comedy. 'cause It was this one thing that I could do solo on my own terms. And it, there's an immediate feedback. You make the audience laugh like you've done it. That's the feedback. And it's spontaneous. You can't fake it. Well, maybe you can fake it, but like a real belly laugh. Mm-Hmm. really hard to fake, you know, that big old belly laugh. For those Speaker 2: Listeners who are out there going, how do you, how do you get the courage to stand up there for five or eight minutes and try out these jokes? Because I know from, I've heard enough conversations with, with standup comedians that they, they go to hundreds of these clubs and try material and try out material, and sometimes it dies. I was lucky enough to hear Ellen DeGeneres when she was young. Speaker 3: Oh, nice. Wow. Speaker 2: And, and I can remember thinking, this lady's going somewhere. You know, I was Speaker 3: In . Oh, wow. Speaker 2: And but I know it just must be grueling. And, and I don't know, how did, how did you, how did you rake up or whatever We would say the courage to do it? Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I was a resident and I had just broken up with a long-term relationship. So I was really going through a process where I was really just re trying to figure out who am I at the coming out of this very long relationship. And I, I sort of took some time and I was like, what is it that I really need? What is it that I really want? And I, I, I searched in and the answer was like, I, I want laughter and I want to make people laugh. And, you know, to be completely honest, standup was a morbid fear of mine. You know, it was something that I could have never imagined myself doing, but I sort of wielded it within myself. I was like, you know what, it's just gonna be a one-time thing. It was supposed to be like a bucket list thing. Like, I'm gonna do standup once, and then that's it. And I'm writing it off. But what happened is, I was in San Francisco training, and I Google searched good place to try standup comedy for the first time in San Francisco. And the first hit that came up on Google was a laundromat slash cafe slash open mic place where people, oh, fun. They have a, they have an open mic and people are like folding their laundry while you're like, telling jokes . And yeah, the website said, this is a good place to try standup comedy for the first time in San Francisco. So I go to Brainwash Cafe slash laundromat, and I, there were three minute sets, so I wrote three minutes of jokes. They were, I, they, now, in hindsight, they weren't funny at all, but they were all I could do at the time. Mm-Hmm. and I go to the laundromat, I do a three minute set, it went well. And just, it happened to be that, that afternoon in the audience was a local producer who produced shows locally in the Bay Area. And he came up to me after my set, he is like, you were really funny. Like, do you wanna do my showcase? Which is in a month? No. And I was shocked. And I was like sure. And he is like, I need you to do 10 minutes and it's next month. See you next month. And so I was like, I told him, yeah, absolutely. But in my mind, I was like, 10 minutes, I don't even have 10 seconds of good material . So, you know, what I ended up doing is I started going to other open mics so I could prep for that one showcase. But then what happened is that at those other open mics, other comedians who had shows, they would see me and they were like, Hey, I want you to do my show. And so by the time I had that showcase a month out, I actually had all these other showcases lined up, and the next thing I knew I was, I was in it. I was deep in it. And, and the, the, it really just transformed. And then I, I was like, this is a lot of fun. I'm not gonna stop. And so I just kept doing it. And then years passed and then more opportunities arose, and then I started doing commercials. And that, you know, it turned into this whole other world. But it really originated for me wanting to face this small fear and just like seeing what would happen. I hope, Speaker 2: I hope my listeners are listening to this because, you know, one of the things that I, that I say probably, I mean too many, too many times, is it doesn't matter where you go, it matters that you go, oh Speaker 3: Yes. Speaker 2: It sounds like you just said this is a fear of mine. I wanna confront it. You didn't have plans necessarily to become, you know, a standup comedian, but you just went where, you know, you went, you went in intersection and three minutes Speaker 3: . Yes. And those three minutes literally changed my life. Yeah. And, you know, over the years, my relationship with fear has evolved. You know, it's, it's only years later that I realized, you know, when we experienced fear, and I'm not talking about the, the, the real fear. Like, if there's a tiger about to mall you or you know, a car gonna hit you or something like that, forget about that sort of fear, like actual real fear, but just sort of the existential fear that everyday fear to me. Now, when I experienced that in relation to a specific situation, I actually view that as a sign that I'm getting close to some area of transformation. Fear is a sign that you probably are doing something right. Speaker 2: It's a flare from your unconscious mind going, pay attention, pay attention, Speaker 3: Pay attention. Yeah. And so now when I experience fear, my relationship with it is such that I'm like, oh, it seems like this might be an opportunity for transformation. Speaker 2: I Just love your story.. Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. Speaker 2: What's the next? Speaker 3: You know, yeah. So there's a coup, there's a couple of things in the pipeline. I mean I, I just wanna name to, to piggyback off of what you're saying, you know, again, when I first started doing standup, I never thought it would pivot to doing more social justice activism about better treatment for physicians treat. I never thought it would lead to educating the general public about complex medical issues in the form of a podcast that mixes comedy and medicine. You know standup really are, is kind of the trunk of the tree, but the branches led to other things. And for that, I'm very grateful. And so at this point, you know the, the podcast is taking up quite a bit of time. And we do have, it does butt Speaker 3: it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And like I said earlier, I am working on a show with parody songs and singing. So I love that you sing because singing has, has also been, it's another way of performing that really uses your whole body. And so I, I'm working on that as well. And then a couple of other projects that I can't really talk about yet, but I, I'm excited to release soon. Speaker 2:Oh, that's nice. Well, again, we'll have the link to your podcast, but say it one, because I'll probably crucify again. So , Speaker 3: It's, it's HypochondriActor episodes are released every Wednesday on all of the channels Spotify, iTunes audible, you name it. Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. And way any other ways people can reach out to you. Yeah, Speaker 3: Sure. You know, I'm available on social media, Instagram. You can find me at Wali Priyanka. That's w a l i, Priyanka, P R I Y Y A N K A. Speaker 2: Okay. Well, I, I, like I said, I was up about five 30 this morning and I started, you know, and you made me laugh and you made me laugh hard. Speaker 3: Oh, good. . Speaker 2:That was really a fun way to start my morning. And I have loved our conversation. Likewise. Speaker 2: If You ever wanna have a mental health professional on, just keep me in mind, Speaker 3: . Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to stay in touch. Well, Speaker 2: It's lovely to meet you. Likewise. Speaker 3: Bye. Dr. Margaret Outro I hope you enjoyed that. I could not have been more pleased that Priyanka wanted to be on the episode. In fact, we had quite a bit of schedules and reschedules and reschedules before we could get things planned. I really enjoyed talking with her. I hope I get to meet her in LA one time when I go out to see my son. As of this recording, my TEDx has now had 112,000 views. Please go listen to it or watch it and like it if you do, I'm falling a little short on likes, 'cause I really want those to show that people are agreeing with the idea that we don't have to keep secrets. That we can be transparent even about things that are very, very hard to talk about. I hope that's what SelfWork is showing you, that I and other people can talk about things like depression, anxiety, sexual abuse, anything that happens to you with clarity so that we can act as beacons for each other. So just go to YouTube, TEDx Dr. Margaret Rutherford, and it'll be there. You could watch it, listen to it, and if you do like it or even comment, that's even better. Thanks for being here, guys. It's always a pleasure. Take very good care of yourself, your family, and your community. I'm Margaret, and this has been.  

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple PodcastsIn this "Ask Us Anything" (AUA) session, we answer questions from a Linkedin live about SEO & AI, the state of the economy, careers and more.Topics* Breakfast Routines* Predictions on Economic Recovery* AI and SEO* Preparing for AI and SGE* Eli shares the best career advice he didn't take* The Importance of Working at Big Brands Early in Your Career* Best Practices for Prioritizing and Implementing SEO Initiatives in Companies* Impact of Generative AI on Jobs and Medical Professionals* Building a Nerd Wallet Competitor in 2023* Impressive AI SEO Marketing Tools* Workspace Labs beta and Google's Keyword blog* Eli and Kevin Discuss Marketing Evolution and Tactics in Today's Digital Landscape* Companies Collaborating with Influencers* Discussing AI advancements and future implicationsTranscript[00:00:05] Kevin and Eli Go Live: A Friday Conversation[00:00:05] kevin: We're live.[00:00:06] eli: We're actually live.[00:00:07] kevin: Is this real?[00:00:08] eli: Yes, it is real. We did it. Oh, my God. Eli, what's going on this Friday? How are you?[00:00:14] kevin: Let's enjoy the podcast for the sake of all the people, all the millions of people that are not watching us live.[00:00:20] Contrary Marketing Podcast: Live AMA[00:00:20] eli: All right, sounds good.[00:00:21] kevin: Hello.[00:00:21] eli: Welcome to the Contrary marketing podcast, where we give you ideas you might not be thinking about today. Eli and I are doing a live AMA. Not MMA live. AMA we're beating ourselves up only verbally.[00:00:33] kevin: No, AMU sorry. Aua ask us anything.[00:00:38] eli: Ask us a good point where you can already tell by this highlevel. We ask each other questions, and we want questions from the live crowd that we're going to ask each other as well. Eli, you want to hit it off?[00:00:49] kevin: Yeah, but Kevin, I hate to interrupt the flow here, but I'm not sure that we're live.[00:00:52] eli: I'm pretty sure we have 33 viewers.[00:00:54] kevin: We do. Okay, so they're there on my LinkedIn event. I just see our logo.[00:01:00] eli: It's not a multiverse or what do you call it? Metaverse.[00:01:03] kevin: Can't see myself. Okay, well, we have 33 viewers. Welcome, everyone. Welcome.[00:01:06] Morning Q&A and Discussing Breakfast Routines[00:01:06] eli: Eli, hit me with a question here.[00:01:08] kevin: What do you have for breakfast?[00:01:09] eli: I had egg beaters, cherry cheese, and two slices of bread. Kind of my standard breakfast. I have that almost every morning, and I don't mind it at all. And of course, coffee. Can't forget the coffee shopify, mark. Exclusive for the growth team.[00:01:24] kevin: How about you? So it's a little bit earlier in the morning here on the West Coast, so I had to skip breakfast today. But I did have my coffee, and it's the first thing I do is wake up, think about the coffee, and run to go get it. But let's do a real question here.[00:01:35] eli: Let's do a real question.[00:01:37] kevin: I think we're full of SEO questions. One day we won't have SEO questions. Let's do a non SEO question.[00:01:43] Predictions on Economic Recovery and AI-related Stocks Driving Bull Market[00:01:43] kevin: When do you think the economy will get better?[00:01:45] eli: Man, if I knew that, I would put all my money into the stock market at some point in time. Look, I'm not an economist, but I have very deep insights into a lot of companies right now and some companies who make a lot that make a lot of money. And I don't yet think we have bottomed out. I think we have seen some of the worst B, two B businesses that sell to other companies and that might slowly turn around or at least flatten out, but I think consumer businesses might get hit even harder. And so, again, this is not financial advice, and I cannot see the future. But if I had to make a guess, I think Christmas this year or maybe even summer next year. That's kind of a span where I think the economy will get better. But I can only tell by how good business is going for some of the companies that are working with. And right now, demand is down. Sales cycles are still very long. Revenue is down year over year. So that's my prediction. What do you think?[00:02:44] kevin: I actually think the stock market has probably bottomed out. I don't know if you saw this, but we're in a bull market, which is crazy, because I always tell people, you can't pull your money out of the market because you don't know the bottom until you're months past the bottom. I forget the number, but this financial advisor told me that if you would have invested in the top of the market in 2008, right before the market, like, plummeted. So if you invested in the top of the market in 2008, and then you would have pulled your money out at the bottom of the market in March of 2020, when the market had dropped like 40% or something, you would have still made like 180%. So that's the market, right? So you look at trends and you think everything's terrible, but you have no idea. The only way you can really make money in the market is by keeping your money there. So I didn't realize it, but we're in a bull market. So a bear market is when the market is down 20% overall, and a bull market is when it's up 20%. So somehow within all of this, in 2023, we're actually in a bull market, and the market has turned. So I think the market will probably improve because a lot of the layoffs, a lot of the bad things, things have sort of already been baked in. Whether the bad things continue is a whole different story. So again, the market is psychology of the market is maybe things aren't as bad. So people invest, and there's money being made there. But I do think economically, there's probably a lot more layoffs. There's way too much spending for the amount of bad economic news and the amount of layoffs, unemployed amount of people. I think we're probably still a ways away from there. Maybe things turn around next year when there's an election, because markets are psychology, economics or psychology, and candidates can mess things up, messing around with things and make it look a little bit better. Stimulus might not be a good thing. Creates inflation. It created inflation. But hey, if they stimulate the economy and they start giving that money, people might spend, there might be more jobs. And we go back to those 2021 days, 2022 days, where companies just way overhired. I think around the marketing layoffs in general, there were just too many hires, so companies are just ramping down. I don't think it's necessarily a function of the employees. It's even a function of the companies. They just way overhired, and they need to pull that back. In Google's case, Google had never really fired anybody or laid anybody off. So they each had too many employees over two decades of growing, and they need to pull back. No one knows whether Google will do more layoffs, but they're not talking about it. Facebook continues or Meta continues to talk about doing layouts.[00:05:10] eli: The one thing that you mentioned that's super interesting is that we're in a bull market. And when you look at the stocks that are actually up driving that increase, it's all stocks related to AI. So Nvidia is going absolutely nuts right now. Apple after their announcements, google, Microsoft is really those stocks driving the market, and it's all about AI.[00:05:31] Kevin and Eli Discuss AI and Answer Questions[00:05:31] eli: And that's one topic that we got a lot of questions for, and I.[00:05:34] kevin: Think we have to drink now. Now. You just said AI. Oh.[00:05:37] eli: Every time you say, oh, okay, here we go.[00:05:39] kevin: I forgot.[00:05:39] eli: Here we go. Coffee, a zip of water.[00:05:41] kevin: There you go.[00:05:42] Preparing for AI and SGE: Impact on Search Traffic and the Future of SEO[00:05:42] kevin: All right, we made it five minutes without using the word AI.[00:05:45] eli: It's a new record, I think.[00:05:47] kevin: Yeah, it is a new record here.[00:05:50] eli: The question I have for you is you wrote this series of posts about AI and SGE, google's new search generic experience. Let's cut straight to the chase. Most people tuning in here know what's going on and have heard about AI and Se. What do you tell people or companies who ask you what they can do right now to prepare themselves for SGE when it rolls out to the broader public and for AI in general.[00:06:16] kevin: So I've been preparing for this for many years by focusing on users, by focusing on product led SEO. I was never really algo centric. So this is obviously AI and SGE is an algo adjustment. Well, not an algo, but it's an adjustment in this search layout and it's adjustment of the search page. So my focus has always been on building great things for the search user. So that's just a user that happens to come from a search engine, regardless of whether Google Bing, I don't know, Yandex or whatever. So I think that that is what everyone should continue to do, build for that search user. Now, the makeup of that search user is going to change. And I think the big way that's going to change is that search user is going to move from top of funnel, which is very generic searches, to more mid funnel. And I'll give you an example. I'm in the middle of planning a trip to Europe this summer, and I'm doing a lot of googling most of the queries that I Google, they are bringing up SGE. So obviously that didn't exist a month ago. So if I would have done that Googling, there wouldn't have been any generative responses unless I did it on Chat WT. But so there's now I'm Googling most of the names of hotels. When I Google, there is an SGE response. Now, is the SGE great? I don't think so. When I Google the name of hotel, there's a couple of things that I'm looking for around the hotel. One is where is it located? And two is what are the ratings? So where it's located? Obviously. That's Google. That's a Maps query. And what it's rated? That is TripAdvisor or Booking.com or anybody that's collected a significant mass amount of reviews. Google telling me that it is 176 room hotel built in 1992 and is in some neighborhood which I don't know the name of the neighborhood is not very helpful. However, the fact that that exists, that that content is there does mean that the people that are looking for that information are no longer going to go to TripAdvisor. So I'm still going to TripAdvisor because it has information that I need. But I think this SG is going to disrupt the top of the funnel and that may be a good thing. Maybe it's a good thing that there were so many sites out there before that created aggregated content that didn't give so much helpful information and they just ranked on Google and then captured the click and it wasn't helpful for the user. But by being number one, they got the click and now you won't get the click. So maybe that's a good thing for the users. They just capture that information right away. So I think everything about search is changing and traffic is going to change. And the interesting thing is I keep polling this on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn polls because I get a lot of responses. Most people in my polls have not seen SGE. Another one I did last week is 53% of people are not preparing for anything related to generative in the rest of this year. And then the insight that I took out of this is that many, many marketers don't know what it is and they just assume it's another Google algo change. This is something I just heard from a CMO of a company who reached out and said, hey, our SEO agency says don't worry about this thing. It's another algo change, we'll be fine. And I don't think that's correct. I think this is a fundamental layout change and traffic will absolutely change. And just assuming that it's no big deal is a huge mistake. Now, will it crush most sites? I don't know. Like, depends on the vertical, depends on where Google lands with it. If you're an informational vertical, wikipedia as an example is getting crushed. I think that marketers should be using this, should be paying attention, and things will change. What do you think? Are you in my Pessimistic camp or you're like, this is Google, this is Google being Google. You don't even use Google. You use chat GBT. You tell me this all the time or even this Google.[00:09:50] eli: Yeah, it's funny. I do think things will change. So I'm halfway with 1ft. I'm in your camp.[00:09:57] kevin: I do think don't agree. You're not supposed to agree.[00:10:00] eli: No, it's just 1ft.[00:10:02] kevin: Half agree, half a foot.[00:10:06] eli: I agree with one toe and my other toe. Tell me that. No, it's it's a middle toe. It's a little longer than a piggy toe. I don't see SG going live in its current form. There was this interesting article that the chief Editor of Tom's Hardware published a couple of days ago fundamentally criticizing the accuracy and information in SGE and two, how it's still lacking references and how much it's copying, how borderline plagiarism it is. I do agree with that argument, directionally, but not to the same intensity, if that makes sense. But I think there's something there, it's in beta. It is great that it's in beta and it should stay in beta until Google has found a really good fit. I still also think that Bing AI search answers are much, much better.[00:10:55] kevin: Right?[00:10:55] Consequences of AI Integration in Search Results[00:10:55] eli: So little sneak peek. I'm publishing this article on Monday, but one thing that I did so this article, the chief editor Thomas Pilch last time is Pilch of Tom's Hardware. He calls out one example which is best GPU and in SGE. SGE basically word for word copies a large part articles by Tom's Hardware, PC gamer and other authorities and then links to them like barely maybe the Corroborated results, but doesn't even give a good attribution. And I tried that same query, best GPU in Edge on Bing in the conversational AI search and the results were much, much better. Basically, I got a very quick list, clear attribution and citation and the accuracy was so much more on point. So, long story short, I don't think this train is stoppable, train is moving, AI is going to go in the search results. The question is how? I think the current form of SGE is too aggressive to go live and not have everybody up in arms. I think we'll see a more toned down version of that. But we still need to think about the question of how do we thrive in this world and what can we do to stand out? And there are a bunch of things depending on the vertical you're in, but it's a new game or 50% of the game is new. Let's put it this way.[00:12:14] kevin: Totally agree with that. It's new and I also think it will keep changing. I think you're wrong about when it's going to launch or what form it's going to launch. I think that Google is rushing to launch things like maybe Google wants to wait a little bit and put it out next year. But every time OpenAI launches something new and they launch something new this week where it relates to functionality and they improved the capabilities of Chat GBT, I think that panics Google and someone's fingers hovering over that button that just puts it out onto the whole world, man.[00:12:47] eli: I don't think they can launch like that. I think they said in the blog article they're aiming for December of this year. They already said that they made some improvements to SG. I think Denny Sullivan, the search liaison at Google confirmed that. But I still think it's way off these references. It's a small detail, but it's an important one. I think citations or references need to be an SG and they need to be clearer than where they are right now. But I'm willing to gamble and I'm willing to bet here. But it's a whole new skill set that we have to learn and some things that I've already noticed. Again, we cannot make deterministic statements about how it works before we see the change in traffic, before we see the actual public life version or the final version. But one thing that I've already noticed is that this idea of third party reviews for your products has become so much more important. And it makes sense why Google is launching product review updates for its current algorithm left and right. I mean, every year you see four or five of these and they are all incredibly impactful. I mean, I'm talking to some businesses who see decreases of 30, 40, sometimes 50% of organic traffic due to a product review algorithm, and they suffer because they don't have a clear indication of methodology, clear authorship, clear evaluation system for products. And so it makes sense now because in part, Google leads so hard on third party reviews for its SGE experience when it comes to ecommerce related searches or local business searches. So this whole idea of a review footprint and influencing reviews and getting reviews out there is just so much more important, and I don't see that going away. That's my take.[00:14:23] kevin: Yeah. All right, let's move on to the next one. Let me ask you one. Go ahead. We're totally switching topics here and then we'll come back to SEO.[00:14:31] Eli shares the best career advice he didn't take[00:14:31] kevin: What's the best career advice you ever got and didn't take?[00:14:35] eli: Wow, dude, I got no warning about this one. That comes out left field, so let me see if I can stand up a great answer that doesn't make me lay in bed tonight and think about, oh, I wish I would have said that instead of this. So, look, I'm going to be going to be completely honest here and completely transparent. Someone who I look up to and still do gave me the advice that I wasn't ready enough yet to go out on my own to advise companies at that level. I'm not aiming to toot my own horn here, but I'm catering to executives. I'm catering to CEOs CMO CTOs Coos C suite.[00:15:13] kevin: Right. Head offs.[00:15:15] eli: Somebody gave me the advice to say, you need to do a couple more rounds of years at a company in house, get to a higher rank, broaden your scope to be ready to really advise companies at that level. And I didn't take it. And it worked out for me. There is an alternate universe where I took that advice and where it worked out even better for me. So I cannot A B test it, but I decided to go out on my own. I'm very happy with it, it works really well and I'm learning a ton. So that's advice I didn't take.[00:15:43] The Importance of Working at Big Brands Early in Your Career[00:15:43] eli: Let me ask you that same question because it's a really good question.[00:15:45] kevin: Well, first of all, I told you to go out on your own much earlier, so I'm glad you finally took my advice. You just didn't take it early enough and I'm glad you spent some time at some big companies. The advice I didn't take was I should have spent more time working at big companies. And I'll tell you why. This came from someone it's funny when you talk to like an older person, let's say someone in there, we're not going to go and blame people in their 40s or being old. None of you are old, I'm over 40. But it's more when you talk to an 80 year old and they give you career advice. And recently we interviewed someone on our podcast who is a couple of generations older than us, does not experience digital the way we did, but he was very insightful and we'll talk more about that in future posts and in future podcasts. But early in my career, an older person gave me advice that I should work for big brands. And at the time I wanted to work for startups because startups are cool and startups are how you get rich and all the cool stuff, work at Unicorns and write good things on your LinkedIn and writing your work at some major company and have some not so exciting job and boring title and boring job. Didn't seem exciting to me. But the advice I got was that I should work at big companies because big companies teach you things that you could then bring to smaller companies. I think that's true. And I should have spent more time at big companies. I should have when I got my first job, I took the first one offering a job because they didn't want to not have a job. It was a big ish kind of company, a few hundred employees. Eventually IPOed was not a startup at all. And then from there I went to a startup. I really wish at that point in time I had gone to a major brand, because there's something about being at a major brand where you learn how those things work. Yes, it's boring. Yes, you're probably not in control of a lot of things, but you see how those things work. You can bring those experiences to a smaller company because ultimately small companies want to be big companies. And then there's the brand cachet. So the company I worked at after that first job no one ever heard of, it was a startup got swallowed up by another company that no one ever heard of. And I learned an amazing amount, but it doesn't really make my resume look that exciting. I was fortunate that after that company I went to SurveyMonkey, which was a well known brand, which is more of a well known brand than it deserves because it's not a huge company, didn't have a huge valuation. However, so many people have taken surveys from SurveyMonkey, just in their mind it appeared like a big brand. For all we know, Pepsi or Coke couldn't be that. There might not be massive brands, but you just see it everywhere. Obviously there are big brands, but something you see everywhere, even if it's not huge, it's perception. So I was fortunate that it ended up being at a big brand, but I think I wish I would have stayed more in big brands and gone to companies like that. And I know we talk about Google a lot, a lot of people will say, oh, Googlers are not that smart. In 2023, maybe in 2005 they were very smart, but in 2023 they're not that smart. It doesn't really matter because everyone thinks they're that smart and that's all that matters. So when they go to their next jobs, when they go to do consulting, I wish I could say I'm an ex Googler and then go and try and do SEO consulting, but I can't. So that's advice to anybody listening that's early in your career, if you have a choice between some really sexy startup and Apple, take Apple, do it.[00:18:52] eli: Yeah, it depends on where you are in career and stuff, but I broadly agree, which I shouldn't.[00:18:56] Best Practices for Prioritizing and Implementing SEO Initiatives in Companies[00:18:56] eli: So I'm going to move on to the other question. I did ask some people earlier this week for questions that I can ask you, and I want to bring some of those up. So one of them is from Clay Kramer. Thanks, Clay, for submitting a question. And it is, what are some good practices for prioritizing and implementing SEO initiatives in your company?[00:19:16] kevin: So the best practice is one that's not followed in most companies, but is followed in the companies where SEO is the most successful, which is to think of it as an initiative instead of thinking of it as a thing to do. So in my career, and I'm fortunate that now my job is talking to many companies. Most of them I don't end up working for, but I talk to founders and I talk to C suite executives and learn about how SEO is done. In most companies, SEO is done as a tactic, as a thing to do. It does not elevate up to the level of executives. There's very little revenue reporting related to it. It's very black box. We're like, well, we don't know what's happening here, but it's magic, and we just fund the magic. And I think that's wrong. The approach is not that, it's this big strategic initiative that's tied into other strategic initiatives and it's part of a product plan, and everything we do needs to have some sort of SEO lens on it. Just like, well, there's the SEO person in the corner working their SEO black magic. And this is a tactic. And that is why a lot of the things that are talked about around SEO, they're just kind of considered tactics. And it's unfortunate that in a time like now where there's economic contraction and layoffs, the SEO who couldn't vocalize what they're doing couldn't communicate how all the things they're doing laddered into the broader picture could be on the chopping block. And I had a recent post on LinkedIn where I talked about how laying off an SEO team during a generational change in SEO makes no sense. That post was driven by how many SEO really, really smart SEO thinkers have reached out to me saying, I just found myself without a job. I was working at this big company, I'm doing these important things, and I was just laid off, and there's nobody behind it. There's nobody else doing SEO. I guess from our perspective as SEO consultants, this is good for us because when everything breaks and there's no budget to hire a full time employee, they will seek out a consultant to help them. But I think the first thing any company wants is a full time SEO employee that owns and drives and communicates what's happening with SEO. To me, that's the biggest myth is that it's not a strategic initiative. It's just a tactic, like build some links, like what we what'd you do on SEO this week? I built some links. Or what you do in SEO this week? I changed some title tags. Like, why? Like, how does that ladder into something? I just talked to a chief product officer at I don't know if they're fortune 500, but they're a really, really big public company. I asked them, like, what their roadmap was for SEO, and they're like, what would an SEO roadmap look like? They have like eight SEO people. And I had to talk to this CPO about how SEO should be important. And they're like, well, we're changing title tags. Then we're moving on to updating our XML sitemap. They're just things to do, and it's not an initiative. And they have eight employees, eight full time employees are spending a lot of money on and they have agencies and a bunch of other stuff. So millions of dollars a year, and it doesn't really tie to anything. It's not like we spend millions of dollars a year on SEO, and here's how we spend it on paid, and here's how it all ties together and CRM. No, we just do SEO. So that's my thing. What about you?[00:22:17] eli: I want to offer a different take. Of course. This is a contrary marketing podcast. I have to disagree.[00:22:22] kevin: Yeah, you just think SEO is dead. I'm with you.[00:22:25] eli: Yeah, I'm post SEO. Now. What is the news? Words AI optimization. Who even knows semantic optimization.[00:22:34] kevin: I don't know what's going on.[00:22:35] eli: So look, here's the thing, right? I think you should have both. You should have very clearly prioritized SEO projects. Where I agree with you, we have to agree with you is that most SEO strategies are actually tactics, not strategies. But what I think makes other sense is you have your top three SEO initiatives, and then you have your top three bets. And this is my contrarian stance here. I think SEO is so much of a black box now that you cannot expect everything to be properly projected and estimated. It's just not possible. There are some things that you don't know will work and will work out, but if they do, you get a competitive advantage. So the only way to move these things forward is to actually take bets. And so I've started working with clients, basically. We did that back at g two, and it worked out wonderfully. We had our big bets. Most of them actually worked out, but not all of them were based on perfect data, good logical constructs and argumentation. Of course, it's not just like licking your finger and putting it in the air and see where the wind is coming from, but it doesn't have to be properly projected and estimated by agreeing on a bet. You basically ask people to take a gamble. You get around all of these questions of, oh, how can we test it at a smaller scale? Like, how can we derisk it? How can we polish the stone so much until it's not sharp anymore? Or the knife, right? You tone it down. You tone it down. You tone it down, you launch it, and then it fails. And so instead, again, I'm pushing companies to take bets, not betting the farm, right? Not life or death type of bets, but let's allocate some capacity on things that we don't know will work out, but have good reason to believe that they might and try it. And that has proven to be very effective in my mind when it comes to prioritizing stuff.[00:24:22] kevin: Right.[00:24:22] eli: It's not just the numbers, but you also need to take a few bets.[00:24:25] kevin: I like that.[00:24:26] Impact of Generative AI on Jobs and Medical Professionals[00:24:26] kevin: All right. Yeah. Let me ask you a question related to this. So I got an email from someone, a medical doctor, a urologist. His profile picture had a stethoscope around his neck, and I checked out his LinkedIn, and he went to medical school as a real doctor. He's panicking about generative AI. Says gen of AI is cutting into his business. He didn't follow up yet. I'm curious why he's bothered by gender of AI, but that question generative AI is cutting into his business and is a urologist. It's interesting. What do you think doctors and service providers that don't provide a traditional service that you would think would be disrupted by generative AI should do about generative AI? I mean, ultimately, I think the doctor shouldn't worry is that doctor, and people come in and pay him to get treated physically, get treated. So cares. But I'm curious.[00:25:16] eli: You basically want to look. Out for tasks that you do completely virtually or completely digitally and that are legwork, right? Like, for example, there are some accounting tasks that you can replace with even chat GPT or AI. Want to be careful? You want to double check this, right? Let me tell you before I give any advice here. None of the technology is good enough yet for you to blindly trust it. Anything you do has to be double checked and viewed carefully.[00:25:44] kevin: Read the rest of the disclaimer. We're not medical advisors, lawyers, financial advisors. Thanks. And this has not been tested on animals. Okay?[00:25:52] eli: But in all honesty, for example, my dad is actually a urologist, and I know that he does a lot of work. What do you call this? Where my English is leaving me, where we talk into a machine and then somebody else types it out for you.[00:26:04] kevin: Dictation. Dictation.[00:26:05] eli: Thank you. Dictation. That you can perfectly replace it with AI. There are even tools. There's a tool. I'm giving you a recommendation right now. I'm not affiliated or anything. They're called audio pen. I think the purpose is more on the journalism side, where you can just ramble and speak and speak, and then audio Pen will kind of transcribe it for you and summarize it. Sorry, I mean journaling, not journalism. However, you can use that tool however you want. So if I was a doctor, I would use that for dictation so that there's not a poor soul that has to listen to it and type it down. And the reason doctors do that is because their handwriting is unreadable. And I know for a fact, but no, in all seriousness, I would use it for those kind of mundane tasks. Mundane, legwork, completely digital. That's where AI can already help you right now. I'm convinced that we will get to a point where AI will help you with diagnosis. There are interesting studies where AI can detect cancer and MRIs much more efficiently than doctors. Fun fact, the best results actually come from a combination of doctors and AI. Not just AI or just doctors. I'm not sure if we're there yet for the broader masses, that might take years, maybe decades. But I think right now the application is for very mundane tasks, virtually. And then in the future, I think AI will flow into every profession and into every job and make a lot of things a lot easier. I'm also in the camp of people who truly believe that AI is not going to replace more jobs than it creates. I think it will create a tremendous amount of new jobs. It will be a net positive impact. Do you agree or disagree?[00:27:40] kevin: No, I agree on that last point, that AI is not going to necessarily destroy jobs. It's like saying we don't want to have cashierless checkout at supermarkets because you got rid of the cashier's job. I don't know. Do you use this? There are sort of efficient, but then you have to call over the person, every other thing you check out to help you. So they're not great yet, but once they get a lot better, it's just a different job. I think AI is going to create a lot of new jobs. It's definitely going to take away old jobs. What you were saying around AI, and I think we should be clear about the difference between AI and generative AI. So AI has existed for a really long time. Like, there's AI that goes into cars, right? So like, obviously a Tesla is self driving that uses a lot of AI. I wrote an article about that recently. I think it creates a gigabyte of data every second. That's how much it's incorporating that's AI. It's like putting in all the sensors. But my car, it's not a Tesla. It's not a self driving car, but it has AI. That when I'm getting too close to a car in front of me and I'm driving too fast, it beeps and reminds me that I should hit the brake. So that's AI. It's just like processing information. So AI in general has been around for a really long time. Generative AI is newer, but the generative AI piece is that users can now access it and we can play with it and we can see how AI works. But it is actually not that complex. And we've talked about this before, it's just doing predictive statistics on future words and I think that is actually not that disruptive. It's just creating answers and sometimes it creates answers don't exist. Did you see the story about the lawyers who went to court with a chat chunk?[00:29:14] eli: Yes.[00:29:14] kevin: Those lawyers should be disbarred anyways because they didn't proofread their work. So I don't think all of a sudden it was like AI AI, but this is just generative AI. It's like, obviously uses neural networks and it's AI, but it is not certainly not taking doctors work.[00:29:27] eli: Yeah, I agree a little bit.[00:29:30] Building a Nerd Wallet Competitor in 2023[00:29:30] eli: But anyway, I wanted to take some life questions because we got some really cool life questions. Thank you all for submitting them. So, question for you, Eli Bujal Patel asks, what are your thoughts on building another behemoth like Nerd Wallet starting now? Would you start a Nerd Wallet like site, basically an affiliate on steroids in 2023?[00:29:50] kevin: Absolutely not. So I think that if you look at all the big affiliate sites, they stumbled upon something by accident and then it became massive and it worked out really well. I don't think you can go and look at something somebody else created and then say, I'm going to make a better Nerd Wallet or I'm going to make a better book site than Amazon and I'm going to sell my traffic back to Amazon. I think if you stumble upon something that there's like an open niche for and you create a bunch of content, there's potentially an opportunity. Again, it probably has to be more midfunnel than top of funnel, but I wouldn't go and say, oh, Nerd Wallet's missing this, and I'm going out Nerd Wallet. Nerd Wallet. One interesting stat I heard around the finance space in particular is Motley Fool. So now it's fool.com. I think it's been around for 20 years. They produce upwards of 100 pieces of content per day. So it's not a great content, but it's content. So if you were to create your own competitor to Fool.com today, you have to catch up with 20 years of 100 pieces of content. That's expensive. So don't disrupt something that already exists that is successful, because you have to outdo them. You have to outbrand them and show up in ranking. So I wouldn't go there at all. What do you think?[00:30:59] eli: I kind of agree. I wouldn't build a copy or another Nerd Wallet. I would be much more curious about how can I build a chat bot that replaces Nerd Wallet? We are at the verge of a huge technological shift that opens up a lot of opportunities. And so instead of thinking about these SEO models, which are under severe threat from AI, I would much rather think about what does the next evolution of Nerdwall It look like? What are they working on right now that I can compete with them on? I would wonder, what APIs can I use to train and feed a chat bot to become incredibly good at giving credit card advice?[00:31:34] kevin: Yeah, an interesting thing is I like this space. I like messing around with finance and seeing what's out there. So Google is they're pulling back from some of those queries. There was SGE on it. So if you look for Best credit card, there's no SGE on it anymore. But I think where Google falls, and I like your chatbot idea is Google can't do that next step. So if you did a query and again, it's gone. Right? But let's say it still exists, best Business credit card. And Google had an SGU and list out like, hey, here's this Chase card, and here's this Wells Fargo card, and here's this Discover card. Those aren't clickable results. So they basically replicate Google in an SGE response. It's not fulfilling. So I still think you go down to like, Nerd Wallet and then you click because from Google's little SGE summary, it's not enough to be like, that's it I'm Googling the Chase business card because that's what I want. So maybe that's why Google got rid of it. Maybe they got rid of it because they wanted to put the ads back. But I do think, yeah, chatbot is the way to go. Get more information. You don't need to read a 1500 word article to get a decision. Again, this requires huge behavior change. But you say, here's me, this is what I want. What's best credit card in response? And then there's your affiliate link.[00:32:39] eli: Agreed. Man, let's do a couple more.[00:32:41] Impressive AI SEO Marketing Tools[00:32:41] eli: Igal staultner also asks live thanks for your question. Igal hey guys, if you're already speaking about AI, what's the best use of AI you have seen in SEO marketing tools? To this day, I haven't been that.[00:32:53] kevin: Impressed with any SEO tool. What about you?[00:32:55] eli: There are two that are really interesting, and I'm probably going to get comments from all the other ones that I didn't mention. So I think one that's really impressive is by Word by W-O-R-D. It can first of all create content at scale across many different keywords and it can also find programmatic SEO place just with a URL.[00:33:16] kevin: Pretty impressive.[00:33:17] eli: The other one is write Sonic. They just published their fifth version of their Writer and I tried it out. I threw it into clear scope and I got a B plus out of it. Not saying that clear scope is the ultimate indicator for great content. There's more than that, obviously, but I'm noticing myself changing my mind where I thought for a long time that AI content is always going to be trash. And I'm starting to actually see counter evidence that some AI content is getting really, really good. So I've spent a lot of time over the last couple of days rethinking what the human contribution to content is and what content even means on the web and for SEO in general. So I would mention those too. There are a bunch of really cool other AI tools. We're using Summarize for the podcast. In part it creates really good descriptions and intros and Summaries. And then one app that I also like, based on AI, is called Poised PO. I sed. It gives you live feedback on how you talk, if you use a lot of filler words, if you say a lot, if you ask empathetic questions, if you're confident, assertive, et cetera. There are some really, really good tools sprouting left and right based on AI. And if you think about the fact that it's only been six months since Chat GPT got so popular, I feel like the next six months are going to be wild and I feel like the next twelve months are going to be even wilder.[00:34:37] kevin: So I thought you were going to say that around writing. I'm not impressed with the writing tools because I think most of them again, I haven't used byte words, but I think most of them are driven towards creating spam outside of SEO. Google just launched some new stuff. Did you see this? They improved Google Lens. Again. I use Pixels and use Android. But they improved Google Lens and got Now Google Lens can detect the skin condition. Just really cool. That's AI. And then I'm in the workspace labs. So there's a new thing in Gmail which is write for me so you can say what you're trying to say. It uses you and all the things you've written in the past to write an email for you. I did test it out, and it signed my name the way I wouldn't. Have a great day. Best, Eli. Right? I don't like that, so that's kind of weird. But again, it's kind of cool. Like, if you want to write a really long email, I hereby resign from this job. I hate this company, and all of you should burn in hell, or something like that. It can smooth that out for you. In general, I like Smart Compose, which I think most people use in Gmail already, which is it figures out what you're trying to say and just finishes your sentence. So this is right for me. Is that on steroids? So lots of cool AI stuff out there. When it comes to SEO, I think the approach to SEO has been more about, like, let's create a lot of high quantity content that may be of dubious quality. So not impressed yet, but please reach out if you have a really cool use case of AI and SEO.[00:35:58] Workspace Labs beta and Google's Keyword blog[00:35:58] eli: All right, I just signed up for the Workspace Labs beta while we were talking. Just Google workspace.[00:36:04] kevin: Lab beta.[00:36:05] eli: I thought I would get it automatically by being a customer.[00:36:07] kevin: Anyway, actually, a funny note here on how you could find out about these things. So Google's product blog is called the Keyword. Have you seen this? Of course. Okay, so it's called the keyword. That's the name of it. It's like blog. Google.com. Or actually, it's Blog Google. They don't dot the blog post right there on the homepage is virtually try on clothes with a new AI shopping feature. Like, if Google had a drinking contest for how often they say AI, everyone would be drunk.[00:36:34] Eli and Kevin Discuss Marketing Evolution and Tactics in Today's Digital Landscape[00:36:34] eli: One question comes from Charlie Williams. Actually like this question. I'm curious to know how Eli's approach to marketing has evolved over the years and what he thinks are the most important tactics for success in today's digital landscape.[00:36:47] kevin: I think my marketing has improved because I just learned more marketing, and that would be my advice for anyone new in their career, which is learn from what you're doing. I think that in today's digital landscape, it's just a digital representation of regular marketing. I love looking at old ads. Kevin, you ever go to museums and they show you like, I don't know, this is what it looked like in the 1920s.[00:37:08] eli: I do sometimes, too.[00:37:09] kevin: They were really good. They did good marketing. We're just doing it digitally. Something works on LinkedIn. Like when you have a viral post on LinkedIn, it's copywriting. So they did copywriting back in the day about, like, the invention of a washing machine or a car that had windows that you could roll down. I think marketing is the same. You're appealing to users and you're tracking them, and you're convincing them to trust you and give you money. Digital just allows you more tools. I don't know that tactics necessarily change. You want good copy, a great product, great message that resonates think the thing that many marketers potentially miss and actually working on a new book on this topic is they don't understand their users enough. So they understand themselves, they understand what they think will work, and they understand best practices about marketing, but they don't put themselves in the user's shoes. And sometimes that comes from, like, being a user, and sometimes that comes from good surveys. I had a friend who was he did market research for Skype. Part of his role was he went to all the places where people use Skype. So we went to India and Nepal and Bangladesh. His job was to not interview users, but he went to the users houses and he ate dinner with them. So props to Microsoft for doing that. Ate dinner, and he learned about them and how they were Skype users and how they use Skype to connect to people. Whatever it is you're marketing, understand the users motivations and why they want to pay you, then don't. Just like I watched a video on how to write good copy, and I watched a video on how to use TikTok for messaging. Ultimately, it comes down to humans buying things. So understand those humans. What about you? What's your evolution of marketing, man?[00:38:47] eli: What's the evolution? So my evolution of marketing has become a better understanding of the right playbook for the right business. I grew up in this very Silicon Valley type growth world where everything is highly measured as a strong product lens, the rigidity of testing, validating, and launching. And I think that's mostly applicable for certain types of companies, usually marketplaces, user generated content platforms. But I think there's this whole other cohort of companies who might be even bigger than the first. They're not able to measure most things. One example are enterprise companies who have long sales cycles, right? I'm talking about more than three months, sometimes six months, or even a year, who sell highly priced software to other enterprises. And they just need to play by different playbooks. They're not going to be able to test and validate everything as much as these other companies. For them, it's much more a before and after type of situation. So my lens has become more refined based on the business that I'm working with and picking the right playbook for the right business. I think we're getting really close on time.[00:39:55] Is SEO Dead?[00:39:55] eli: Let's do one more short question. E G live?[00:39:59] kevin: Is SEO dead? Sorry, that's not short. It's a short question. That's the long answer.[00:40:05] eli: It's fair. You caught me on this one.[00:40:07] kevin: You know what?[00:40:08] eli: Yes and no. I know it's not the answer that everybody wants, but SEO in its old form, I think, is going away. And out of it comes a new type of SEO that has maybe that has a core, maybe 50% of it is similar to what we did before, and that 50% is different. And I'm personally very excited. We're basically coming out of an exploit cycle and we're going back into an explore cycle and I'm all here for it. So I would say SEO is dead. 50%. That's my quick answer.[00:40:36] kevin: What do you think? No, it's not dead at all. It just changes. SEO doesn't die until search engines die. And I don't think search engines will die like Chat, GBT and generate. AI doesn't replace search, it just changes outwork. It's like saying SEO is dead because featured Snippets and Knowledge graph, I mean, I think links are going to probably go away in some way or another because links matter less in generative AI. However, brand matters and links and mentions and brand visibility matters. So just change what you're doing and change where you're going. Obviously, all those useless websites with guest posts that don't exist, those were a waste of money to begin with. So that probably have to go in. That's my quick answer. We'll do a whole Is SEO dead episode once it dies. So stay tuned.[00:41:22] Kevin and Eli's Final Conversation Topic[00:41:22] eli: Eli, you got one last one. All right, you did it in this one. Sorry, it's my turn.[00:41:27] kevin: Last one. Quick. Short one.[00:41:29] eli: Short one.[00:41:29] kevin: Now I have to pick.[00:41:30] Fears and Questions Clients Have About the Impact of Generative AI[00:41:30] eli: What is the biggest question that all your clients asking right now? What are some common questions that we haven't covered yet that you see bubbling up amongst your clients?[00:41:41] kevin: Do you have a discount available for startups? No, I don't, because I need to say bandwidth for the people that don't ask for a discount. I'd say a lot of companies are really freaked out by genera AI. I'm hearing it everywhere. If there's any listeners on the podcast that want us to do, like, a deep dive at your company on what we see in genera AI and our predictions, because I don't think anybody really knows we're available for that, we'll put a link in the show notes to how to contact us for that. Everyone's freaked out because there's change on the horizon. It's the same way when presidential elections happen, investment banks put out their statements of like, this is what we think Trump would do as president. This is what we think Biden would do as president. We're just prepared for all eventualities. I think when it comes to generative AI, it's really unpredictable and it's unknowable. So you have pessimists like me saying, everything's changing. You have optimists like Kevin. They say, don't worry, just keep doing what you're doing. And they don't know. They don't know. Do they hire for it? Do they fire for it? How do they plan? How do they message things to investors and board members and all stakeholders? So that's the biggest what about you? What's your biggest question?[00:42:51] eli: Man it's also related to AI, but I'm trying to not make it related because we're talking about this so much and I feel like I'm just going in circles here.[00:42:59] Companies Collaborating with Influencers like Sports Teams[00:42:59] eli: So the other really big question is what should we invest in that we haven't invested in right now? One really cool thing that I'm seeing is companies collaborating with influencers, more like sports teams. They're almost on full time payroll. Influencers, that is, for specific companies, that creates a lot of amazing content and they build real audiences, they build great engagement. And it's this amazing partnership between people who stand out in a space or have a lot of experience and expertise in a space and companies who get a real benefit from them. It's a great win win mix. If I had to tie that back to the whole AI discussion. We've seen this new Perspectives tabs roll out on Google, and I personally have a huge wish and a huge hope that it will be a new ground where influencers or creators, whatever you want to call them, can get a lot more traffic and a stronger voice. And it's kind of a way for companies to find a new playing field and forge these win win situations together with influencers and audiences. So I'm going to keep it to that one.[00:43:59] kevin: Love it.[00:44:00] Discussing AI advancements and future implications[00:44:00] kevin: All right, well, thank you, everyone. This has been epic. First time of recording live. Let us know if you want to do this again. And for everyone else that didn't record Live, well, follow us on LinkedIn and, you'll know, or listen to us live, follow us on LinkedIn, you'll know, next time we do it. That's a wrap.[00:44:15] eli: Thank you, Eli, for being a good thought partner, as always. And thank you all for tuning in. Happy weekend, and we'll hear you next week.[00:44:20] kevin: Thank you.[00:44:21] The Contrarian Marketing Podcast: Exploring Unconventional Business Strategies[00:44:21] eli: And now it's your turn. Head over to Contrarianmarketingpodcast.com and subscribe to the free weekly newsletter to get a summary of today's episode, key takeaways and community content. And while you're there, go to today's episode and leave your opinion in the comments. We'll feature the best thoughts in the newsletter and on the podcast. Also, if you like today's episode, please feel free to leave five stars on Spotify and Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcast. As always. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

Mitch And Isi celebrate hitting 100,000 subscribers on YouTube with a recap of the past weeks. They debate bodily mishaps, Rammstein stereotypes and Edgar Allen Poe's Eurovision cameo. They then answer one of your questions on teaching and learning English in their online pub in this episode's Unhelpful Advice section. Interactive Transcript ⭐️ FREE 100,000 SUBSCRIBER GIVEAWAY! ⭐️ Open the Interactive Transcript (https://play.easyenglish.fm/episodes/wpgh2cjtygrucy2) Download transcript as HTML (https://www.dropbox.com/s/wpgh2cjtygrucy2/easyenglishpodcast16_transcript.html?dl=1) Download transcript as PDF (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mmpy0l4wabe6i54/easyenglishpodcast16_transcript.pdf?dl=1) ⭐️ Get the Aftershow and all Video perks with this link - https://bit.ly/3IEM62n ⭐️ Subscribe using your private RSS feed to listen to our bonus content and find the interactive transcript right in your podcast app. Show Notes British vs American English: 20 BRITISH vs AMERICAN English Words (https://youtu.be/oJcI5FzrEE0) (Easy English 158) Transcript Mitch: [0:24] We have got 100,000 subs and we would like 100,000 more. Welcome to the Easy English Podcast. Hopefully by now we have the blue tick of confirmation. What does it mean, the blue tick? Do you know? Is there like a meaning behind it? Isi: [0:51] You are now considered (Responsible.) I mean, we didn't do anything. We didn't send them like a passport or so, to give us like an official thing. But I guess you're considered a bigger creator. (Wow.) I don't know. Mitch: [1:05] We did it. Isi: [1:08] We should know that. I Google it. Mitch: [1:09] We did it. And we wouldn't have done it without the help of our listeners and viewers and members, all of which are amazing people, who have helped us get to this milestone. And we would like to celebrate that in a few ways. I think one, we will do a video podcast, which you'll be able to listen and watch, and we'll put it on our YouTube. (Yep.) But also we will do a special YouTube episode, which will be the next one that comes out that you'll see. Yeah, we'll show you a bit of a behind the scenes thing / Brighton, why we love Brighton, and show you some people of Brighton, why they love Brighton, show you some of our favourite hangouts, but not all of them. Isi: [1:51] And an ode to Brighton. Mitch: [1:52] Yeah, an ode. Or an ode. (Ode.) An ode to Brighton. (Oh, God.) Is that German; ode? Isi: [1:59] Ode. Mitch: [2:00] Ode. Isi: [2:01] Eine Ode. Mitch: [2:01] An ode, ode. Isi: [2:04] Ode could have been right. (Could have been right.) Okay, I'm very sorry. Mitch: [2:07] It's not English anyway, it sounds too nice to be English. We wanted to start off by saying thank you to everyone, because we didn't invent those 100,000 subscribers. They are you. You are the 100,000. Isi: [2:22] Maybe they're not. Maybe they just listen to the podcast and they don't even... have ever seen a video of us. Mitch: [2:27] Oh my God. Isi: [2:27] So if you haven't, we have a YouTube channel, by the way. Mitch: [2:30] What are you doing? Isi: [2:31] No, but thank you so much. It is incredible. It seems a bit unreal, so I cannot really... it's like, not that you really think like, oh, we got 100,000. A bit unreal, isn't it? Mitch: [2:43] Yeah. And yeah, we're still working on things like, just because we have 100,000 doesn't mean that we're a set channel, like we're quite far from it. (Yeah.) Like, you know, we still have quite big ambitions of Easy English. You know, it's a lot of people do like a full-time job and then they're YouTube from the side, but Easy English is quite a demanding beast and does require a lot of... (A lovely beast.) It's a lovely beast that we enjoy doing, but yeah, it's something we'd like to do, both of us, full-time in the future. So this is what we're going to be building towards, and having 100,000 subscribers is definitely a big milestone for us, in getting there. Isi: [3:22] Yeah. Mitch: [3:22] We're still beginning, that's how it feels like. But this is confirmation that we've achieved our first big goal. Isi: [3:29] And we couldn't and can't do it without your support. So we want to thank the ones that that are already a member of Easy English, thank you for supporting us. And if we can once ask for support, it would be great, if you enjoy our content, our podcasts, our videos, if you would consider supporting us, so that we can keep doing this, that we can keep producing regularly, podcasts and videos. We obviously offer even more if you become a member. We've got worksheets for our videos, transcripts for our videos, vocab lists for our videos. We got, an interactive transcript for our podcast, where you can basically translate the transcript while listening into lots of different languages. And what else, Mitch? Mitch: [4:19] We also have a conversation membership where we host people in our online pub and we just get to talk about day-to-day English to help you improve your speaking and listening skills. And finally, we have our donor membership, which is for people who want to really help support us and have a little private Zoom with myself and Isi, right? Isi: [4:40] Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, first of all, thank you, if you support us already, and it would be really, really, really great to see more of you in our community. If you want to become part of it, go to easyenglish.video/membership. And, to show you a bit what we are offering and to say thank you for your support, for listening, for sending us questions and ideas and everything. We want to give you all our perks. Mitch: [5:09] A free giveaway, for this podcast and for our episode that came out on the 24th of May. We'll be giving links in this podcast, on the website, in our show notes. We'll also be posting it on our YouTube, on our community section and on our Instagram and on our Facebook. So, it should be quite easy to find. We'll probably have it in bold, caps lock, underlined, exclamation marked, there'll be a free giveaway link to not only our video perks which is our transcript, our vocabulary list, our worksheets and all of our audio and video downloads, but also for our podcast membership, which is our interactive transcript for the podcast and also the extra bit the aftershow. You'll be able to download all of those bits in our free giveaway to say thank you for helping us reach the 100,000 subscriber milestone. So if you didn't get that before, go to easyenglish.video/membership to get all of those goodies for free. Isi: [6:18] Okay, now to the real topics. Topic of the Week Mitch: [6:32] Recap! Isi: [6:32] Okay, let's start with the coronation. Mitch: [6:34] Katy Perry was there. Isi: [6:37] But not how you said it would happen. Mitch: [6:40] She didn't sing at Westminster Abbey, no. That's what I thought was happening. But she did sing the day after. Isi: [6:46] And did she actually, I didn't see that. Did she actually perform the songs that I thought? Mitch: [6:50] Didn't her tit fall out or something? (What?) Something happened though. There was like controversy with her. I think like her tit fell out, or something happened when she was... Isi: [7:00] She couldn't find her place, or, in the church? Mitch: [7:02] Oh, that happened. Oh yeah, she had a massive hat on and couldn't find her seat. Isi: [7:06] It's not Britney Spears. That was a tit. Mitch: [7:08] No, Janet Jackson was the tit. Isi: [7:09] Oh, wait. That was like... Mitch: [7:11] She kissed Madonna and Janet Jackson's tit fell out. Isi: [7:14] So the coronation, we watched it. Not all of it. Mitch: [7:18] We watched it with your family. Isi: [7:20] With my family. (In the living room.) But no one... actually, none of them watched all of it. We all went in and out, the TV was just on. Mitch: [7:27] It went on for ages. Isi: [7:28] Yeah, it went on for ages, and it was a bit ridiculous. And I made the comparison very early onwards. If any one of you has ever been to Germany and knows German carnival, especially in Cologne and the surrounding, in Dusseldorf and the Rhineland area, I know that Creighton knows that, so this is for you, Creighton. If you look at pictures of... I just wanted to say Prince Charles, King Charles and Queen Camilla, especially him, it looks a bit like carnival. Really, it's all this red and white stuff as well. And you could put him on a carnival stage and he could give a... they do those funny speeches. That could have been happening. Although he didn't smile once. He didn't have fun, did he? Mitch: [8:15] No. Isi: [8:16] It's just really exhausting. I can understand that, actually. It's an exhausting thing. You were there, what, three hours or so? Four hours? Mitch: [8:23] He was basically just a coat rack. There's just lots of people coming to him, putting shit on him, taking it off. Hold this. Hold this, please. Here's a cape. Take that cape off. Put the crown on. Crown off. Isi: [8:34] It's such a huge protocol, which is obviously thousands of years old, but it's a weird thing. I'm sure they were all not really into it. It cannot be that much fun. The party afterwards, the dinner afterwards is probably more fun than just sitting there. And then all the guests, they also just have to sit there, straight and smile and don't move. And then you just sit there on those wooden benches forever, and half of the church didn't even see anything. Do they have monitors? Do they stream it? Mitch: [9:05] They have their phones on BBC News. Isi: [9:09] No, but it's just a long, long, long, long thing. It's kind of impressive too. It's something that you really never ever see. So it is, in a way, although I'm not a fan of the monarchy, it is quite interesting to witness, I would say. Mitch: [9:24] My favorite bit was they played the Champions League theme at one point. Isi: [9:27] You know, it's not the Champions League theme. Mitch: [9:31] And then I saw the meme of people interpreting the songs wrong, because they were all done in Latin or Welsh. And there's one about Camilla having a wide vagina. Isi: [9:42] Can we say vagina in this podcast? Mitch: [9:44] We said tit. (Mmm...) Tit and vagina. Isi: [9:48] What is a good word that like, teenagers would use instead of saying vagina? Mitch: [9:52] Fanny. Isi: [9:55] Is that bad or is it like, just to have a word for it? Mitch: [9:58] No, Fanny is... (Isn't Fanny a name?) Isi: [10:00] Oh, that's bad, isn't it? Mitch: [10:01] Also, yeah. Isi: [10:02] I mean, why wouldn't we be able to say vagina? Vagina's not a bad word. Mitch: [10:06] It's medical. Spending way too much time on fannies. Yeah, fanny... Isi: [10:09] But you see, cultural thing. I didn't know that. Mitch: [10:12] But bum bag, this is in the video I made with Justin, part two, American English versus British English. In British English, it's a bum bag, the little bag you wear down on your waist. And in America, it's called a fanny pack. Isi: [10:23] They're also have fanny? Mitch: [10:25] They don't know what fanny is. I told Justin that fanny means vagina and he freaked out, which is probably the best bit of that episode. Isi: [10:32] Because you normally have it in front of your V. (Eurgh.) Okay, let's stop now. Mitch: [10:38] How did we get on to vaginas from the coronation? We also, whilst in Germany, watched the Eurovision. Woo! Isi: [10:48] Yeah, for the first time in forever. Mitch: [10:52] Which was a delight. I was laughing my head off the whole way through. Isi: [10:56] Yeah, but we only watched it because two German entertainers, who also have a podcast that I listen to and Mitch kind of co-listens to when I listen to it, they did the commenting for Austria. So we watched it on Austrian TV, well, online, but that was just a funny thing. We just wanted to hear the commentating. But the whole show is just so ridiculous. It's such a long, boring thing. I don't know. I'm not a fan. Mitch: [11:23] I'd like to do it. I'd like to... I think it'd be really fun to get drunk and do like a live streaming of the Eurovision if it's possible, on YouTube next time. Isi: [11:33] We could do that next year, but not for four hours. Then let's only, I don't know, it just goes on forever and forever. I didn't even see the end, which you only watch it for. You want to see who wins. And then I slept. Mitch: [11:44] I don't want to see who wins. I don't care. Isi: [11:46] Yeah. But you want to see like who... Mitch: [11:47] And who won? Isi: [11:48] Sweden. Mitch: [11:50] Sweden won. Isi: [11:51] Have not until today. Have ever heard the song because when they did the song, I was washing up in the kitchen. We had dinner with it. Then, when they won, I haven't watched the winner's performance, so I actually have no clue what the winner's song is. Mitch: [12:08] It was scary Billie Eilish Lady with the long nails. Isi: [12:11] Can you sing it? Mitch: [12:13] The only one I can remember of all of them was the first one when I was not drunk, because after that, we'd already started drinking. And it was the Austrian... Austria went first and he did the song about the gothic writer Edgar Allan Poe and it was Edgar Allan Poe, Poe, Poe, Poe, Poe, Poe, Poe, Poe, Poe, Poe, Edgar Allan, Edgar Allan, Edgar Allan Poe. Isi: [12:34] Well, not bad. Mitch: [12:39] He'd be spinning in his grave, never mind turning, that people used his name for like, Euro pop. It was all terrible. But my favourite was the Boy George guy. Isi: [12:52] Yeah, I liked him too. From Belgium. Mitch: [12:54] Yeah, Belgium. (He was good. He was good.) Isi: [12:56] I liked the song. Mitch: [12:58] There was a Take That kind of, rip off somewhere in there, wasn't there? Isi: [13:02] There was one other, I think, female singer from, I don't know where, but the song was not for me at all. It was a bit ballad-ish, but she was a good singer, which is also not given, that you come that's a good singer there. Mitch: [13:16] Yeah, that's got nothing, singing has nothing to do with it. Isi: [13:19] But where was she from? Lithuania or so? Maybe not, I don't know, but she was good. Do you remember? She had like a pink/purple dress on or so. Maybe also not, maybe she had a blue dress on. I don't remember, but I know that I thought someone was good. Mitch: [13:35] We were just watching because there was basically, a battle as to who would finish last, Brexit Britain or... I don't know why Germany does so bad always. Isi: [13:44] It's always... well, we do send in quite weird things always, but I mean... Mitch: [13:50] Oh yeah, you had the Rammstein band. Isi: [13:52] Yeah, which people outside of Germany and in Germany, sorry for Rammstein fans, a lot of people love that kind of music. What is it actually? Mitch: [14:02] What Rammstein? Isi: [14:04] What metal, kind of metal is that? Entertainment metal? I don't know. Mitch: [14:09] It's not nu-metal, Rammstein, but maybe it is nu-metal. Isi: [14:13] Well, anyway, a lot of people love it. So I actually thought that song does fit what German music is to the outside world, outside of Germany. So actually, I thought people would be like, yay, someone like Rammstein coming from Germany. Let's actually vote for them. It didn't work. Mitch: [14:31] It didn't do German stereotypes any good. Isi: [14:33] I don't listen to too much German music or music coming from Germany. It doesn't have to be particularly German lyrics, but also, there is good music coming from Germany, I would say. Mitch: [14:47] Yeah, I like, who was that 90s band, that did like house music, Shaka Khan. Is Shaka Khan not German? No, no, not Shaka Khan. Isi: [14:56] You mean... Mitch: [14:57] What do I mean? From the 90s house scene. Isi: [15:01] Well, you know Alphaville. Mitch: [15:02] Haddaway?! Are German? Isi: [15:05] Are they? Mitch: [15:06] What is love? Baby don't hurt me no more. Isi: [15:11] Was ist liebe? (Was ist liebe?) Oh God, good that there was never, well there was probably, well Kraftwerk. Mitch: [15:19] Yeah but Kraftwerk made it very clear they were German. But I liked it, it suited it. Isi: [15:24] That's what I mean. (Oh it's nice?) And then, hmm. Mitch: [15:29] Haddaway were German, amazing. Isi: [15:31] Well we do have good music. Mitch: [15:32] H-Blockx. Isi: [15:34] Although I don't listen... do you know H-Blockx? Mitch: [15:37] Of course. Isi: [15:38] How? What? Where? Why? Mitch: [15:39] I had the Kerrang channel and they did the cover version of I Got The Power. Isi: [15:46] Really!? Do you know that they're from Münster? Mitch: [15:48] They're from Münster? Wow. This is gonna sound like a crazy, unbelievable story. It's gonna sound really stupid, but my parents had a back garden. Every summer we did two weeks camping with me and my friends in our back garden. And we'd cook our own food and it was sort of us learning how to look after each other and cope without parents. Isi: [16:09] But the parents were five meters inside and they would actually give you food later. Mitch: [16:13] And we went to the toilet inside as well. Isi: [16:15] Yeah. And then your mom actually gave you some real food later. Mitch: [16:18] Yeah, exactly. And we played like that... my parents had set up these little tasks so we could win nice prizes. (Oh, that's cute.) It was really fun. And we did it with four or five people in my mom and dad's trailer tent, when they didn't want to use it in the summer. And at that time, H-Blockx, I Got the Power was the biggest song on Kerrang! It was number one for ages and we got obsessed with it. We had a competition who could headbang the longest out of the whole song. Like, really headbanging, like, really throwing your head back. And we had a competition of it in the trailer tent. And the next day we all had like, minor whiplash and we all couldn't move our necks. We all pulled our neck muscles out. (Okay.) So H-Blockx lives in my cult memory. Unhelpful Advice Mitch: [17:09] So we have a message that someone left for us um... through our website easyenglish.fm, where you can also if you want, leave us a message or ask us a question through our unhelpful advice section and so we uh... have a message today from James. Let's have a listen. "Hi Easy English my name is James,I'm a native English speaker who very much enjoys watching your videos, because you never really stop learning and it's always interesting learning more about my language. I wanted to ask, I know you've touched on this before, I wanted to ask more about how you became English teachers. Did you have to take the TEFL qualification to TELF or is it TELT qualification? And do you have any advice for anybody who might want to start teaching English as a foreign language? And also, I think I quite enjoy joining your pub, your online pub, to have a chat with others. But as I'm a native English speaker, I don't want to be taking the place of a learner who's trying to learn English. So I don't know if it's okay for me to join the pub? Thank you for all you do. Te-ra. Isi: [18:21] Aw, that's very nice. (Te-ra.) Hi, James. Mitch: [18:24] Hi, James. Isi: [18:25] Really, really nice message. Well, where do we begin? English teachers. Well, I'm certainly not an English teacher. I could be one, obviously, even though I'm German, but I'm not an English teacher. Mitch: [18:36] Yeah, and I'm also certainly not an English teacher. Isi: [18:40] Why certainly? Mitch: [18:41] Well, because there are, not because I can't do it, but it's because there are people who have, for sure trained and put a lot of work in curriculum-wise to become an English teacher. However... and by all means, I think it's good to look for those people. But, I think what's so great about what we do with Easy Languages, is that,this idea of learning from a book or this kind of, I would call it old-school methods, learning through reading or... but, there's nothing quite like being here and, well yeah, just listen to how much I'm mumbling, this is what real English people do. They can't even get their own English words out of their mouth. Isi: [19:27] The thing is you learn it in school or in a course and then you go to a country where that language is spoken. And mostly, if you really only learn in a course and then go to that country... or to any country that speaks that language, you're like, oh, that was different. Mitch: [19:44] One time when I was out filming, I interviewed a German guy and what he said to me, I always now, say to people when I'm asking questions, like, why do you do this? What's this for? And I always say, you know, teaching authentic English. And I always use what he said. And he said that he had been learning officially, through like teachers who had taught, who had learned through this TEFL course. And he'd been studying English for years, and he finally came and he flew in at John Lennon Airport in Liverpool, and he said it all went out the window, instantly. Isi: [20:17] Well, that's Liverpool, isn't it? So it's not so easy to start with the Scouse accent. But, yeah. So, we are not teachers. I guess we kind of, you kind of become a teacher in a way, on the way. Mitch: [20:31] Yeah. We're kind of like the middle, like third party, aren't we? Helping you find... Isi: [20:36] Your way through the language. (Yeah, yeah.) Yeah. But, like with the... Mitch: [20:42] Conversation membership. Isi: [20:43] Conversation membership, of course you can be part of it. Mitch: [20:45] Absolutely. (It would be amazing.) I mean, anyone can support us and you don't have to use the perks we give out in the same sense that with the Conversation Membership. If you want to be a Conversation Member, you can come along, you can just listen, you can get involved, you can do what you like! Isi: [21:00] I mean, English learners will be probably very happy about another native speaker joining in and like, making it even more British, so. Mitch: [21:08] Yeah, if you want to just come along just to hang out, you know, if you're a supporter of Easy English and you are a native speaker, you're also very welcome just to come, meet new people, hang out with us for an hour or so, share a drink in our online pub, all are welcome. And you don't feel like you're under pressure to speak, you can just listen along and you know... Isi: [21:29] We just talk for an hour. Mitch: [21:35] We'll just talk for an hour. God forbid. Isi: [21:37] Okay, thank you, James. (Thanks.) What a really nice message and yeah, keep on sending those, James and any other of you listeners, any other person, please send us messages because it's really nice to know who's listening, who you guys are. Yeah, we only hear about you and who you are if you send us a message, or if you leave a review somewhere on the apps that you're listening to, that would be also great, because we sit here on this side, and we know a lot of people are listening, actually, surprisingly more than we thought and we would also like to know who you are. Anyway, write to us, send us messages. We are always really, really happy to hear from you. So, now we have dinner. Mitch: [22:24] Thanks again for your support. (We have dinner.) We have dinner.Yeah, thanks for the 100,000 of you that have subscribed. And if you haven't subscribed, do it now. Why not? Isi: [22:38] Bring us to 101,000. Thank you! (Te-ra!) Te-ra! Support Easy English and get interactive transcripts and bonus content for all our episodes: easyenglish.fm/membership

This week, we're discussing how much we struggle to know who we are, especially through difficult periods of our lives and how who you were yesterday is almost certainly different from who you are today.I Google my name to see who the internet thinks I am,  there is a tale about a furious cow, Martin's late father falls into a river and he (Martin) gets himself a new set of wheelsWe're on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/sideways_podcast/We're on TikTok @landiwellbeingYou can email us at info@grahamlandiwellbeing.co.ukThanks again for listening, we really appreciate it.

Jak być efektywnym i skutecznym managerem i jak być w tym dobrym? Można szukać różnych informacji, albo można oprzeć się o coś, co ktoś sprawdził. I Google sprawdził jakiś czas temu, co sprawia, że ich managerowie są efektywni. Wyszło im 10 takich cech. Dziś skupimy się na jednej – jak efektywnie współpracować między działami. Kilka moich doświadczeń – jak to działa w praktyce? Zapraszam! Mariusz Kapusta

Podcast: The Lunar Society (LS 37 · TOP 2.5% )Episode: [Best] Byrne Hobart - FTX, Drugs, Twitter, Taiwan, & MonasticismRelease date: 2022-12-01Perhaps the most interesting episode so far.Byrne Hobart writes at thediff.co, analyzing inflections in finance and tech.He explains:* What happened at FTX* How drugs have induced past financial bubbles* How to be long AI while hedging Taiwan invasion* Whether Musk's Twitter takeover will succeed* Where to find the next Napoleon and LBJ* & ultimately how society can deal with those who seek domination and recognitionWatch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here.Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.If you enjoy this episode, I would be super grateful if you shared it. Post it on Twitter, send it to your friends & group chats, and throw it up wherever else people might find it. Can't exaggerate how much it helps a small podcast like mine.A huge thanks to Graham Bessellieu for editing this podcast.Timestamps: (0:00:50) - What the hell happened at FTX?(0:07:03) - How SBF Faked Being a Genius:  (0:12:23) - Drugs Explain Financial Bubbles (0:17:12) - On Founder Physiognomy (0:21:02) - Indexing Parental Involvement in Raising Talented Kids (0:30:35) - Where are all the Caro-level Biographers? (0:39:03) - Where are today's Great Founders?  (0:49:05) - Micro Writing -> Macro Understanding (0:52:04) - Elon's Twitter Takeover (1:01:28) - Does Big Tech & West Have Great People? (1:12:10) - Philosophical Fanatics and Effective Altruism  (1:17:54) - What Great Founders Have In Common (1:20:24) - Thinkers vs. Analyzers (1:26:17) - Taiwan Invasion bets & AI Timelines TranscriptAutogenerated - will not be perfectly accurate.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:00Okay, today I have the pleasure of interviewing Bern Hobart again for the second time now, who writes at thediff.co. The way I would describe Bern is every time I have a question about a concept or an event in finance, I Google the name of that event or concept into Google, and then I'd put in Bern Hobart at the end of that search query. And nine times out of 10, it's the best thing I've read about that topic. And it's just so interesting. It's just like the most schizophrenic and galaxy brain it takes about like how, you know, the discourses of, you know, Machiavelli's discourses relate to big tech or like how source of serial reflexivity explains hiring in finance and tech. So just very interesting stuff. I'm glad to have him back on again.Byrne Hobart 0:00:47Yeah, great to be back. Awesome.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:50Okay. So first, I really want to jump into the FTX saga. What the hell happened? Let me just like leave an open ended question for you.Byrne Hobart 0:00:59Yeah, so I think the first thing to say is that there's a lot we don't know. There's a lot we may never know, because so many of the decisions at FTX were made through self like auto deleting encrypted chat. So like there are some holes we will never be able to fill in. The lack of accounting is also going to make it tough. Like basically, I think you can tell a bunch of different stories here. The really obvious one is fraud. And you can debate over exactly when it started, like one version of the story, which is getting some currency is that SPF had this entity Alameda, and it was supposed to be this really hot crypto trading fund, but maybe it was a Ponzi scheme all along. And then maybe at some point that Ponzi scheme started to run short on cash. So he decided to start an exchange and the exchange got more cash, and then he used the cash to pay off previous bachelors, whatever. I think that's one version. And then kind of the maximally exculpatory version, which actually is still really bad is Alameda was a real company. They really made money trading. They took tons of risks. And SPF has talked about why he thinks that's a good thing, that FTX cut some corners when they were raising money and that they had really bad internal accounting. And that basically the extended entity of Alameda and FTX sort of lost track of whose money was where and it ended up with Alameda spending FTX customer money, which I think is like, one way to look at that is like, if you think, okay, fraud is like twice as bad as just incompetently losing money. Well, it's not as if we had a $4 billion fraud instead of $8 billion fraud, everyone would be like, well, that's fine. That's normal. Like, why are you giving sky high time? It's bad no matter what. Running a big company that is systemically important in crypto and then having that company completely vaporize over the course of a couple of days, really, really bad and worth understanding what happened. But it's partly worth understanding what happened because there are just different solutions that present themselves depending on what you think the story is. Like if the story is fraud, it's actually a lot harder to solve because there are just a lot of people who are willing and able to commit fraud and to lie. If the story is bad accounting, then that's actually a lot more solvable because then you could say things like, the solution is make sure you never invest in a crypto exchange that doesn't have a real auditor and make sure that they have their proof of reserves calculation and it's happening consistently and that you can audit that. There are different solution sets. And then I think the actual story is going to be somewhere in the middle of extreme risk tolerance plus extremely poor accounting plus fraud at some point. But I suspect the fraud actually happened pretty late. If it happened, which I think there's like 80, 90% chance that there was some level of fraud versus pure incompetence. But if so, I think may have happened fairly late in the story and as kind of a last desperate move. I think part of what drives the response to what happened with FTX and Alameda is that if you think the story is pure fraud, it's very easy to say you would never do that. I can say very easily, I would definitely never start a Ponzi scheme and then start another bigger Ponzi scheme to pay off the first Ponzi scheme. That's not me. That's not most people. But I think if you draw the scenario where they discover at some point like a couple months ago or even a month ago, they realized, hey, we actually there's a billion dollars plus that was supposed to be customer money, but we thought it was Alameda money and we actually spent it and now it's gone. We've lost it. What would you do in that circumstance? And I think the ideal answer is, well, I'd immediately come clean and step down and commit myself to getting everyone paid back and made whole. And I think there's also the possibility that the realistic answer is more like, well, I would scramble and try to make sure that that didn't cause the company to collapse and try to pick up later. And so at that point, you've sort of backed your way into fraud through earlier episodes of incompetence. But I think like one of the problems with the fraud story is frauds have to be good at accounting because they have to like, you know, there's very rough schematic sense. They have to be twice as good at accounting as everybody else, because not only do they have to have the real books that tell them how much money the business has and whether or not the next check they're at will bounce, but they have to have the fake set of books and they have to have a way to make those tie out with one another. So they actually like frauds, accounting frauds tend to be fairly sophisticated. They tend to really dive into edge cases. I was reading up on MF Global, which was a big futures brokerage that collapsed in part because they were dipping into customer funds and making some investments they shouldn't have. And they did a lot of clever and shady stuff. Like one of the things they would do is there was one point where they were transferring money at the last minute out of their consumer, out of their customer funds in order to make margin calls. And what they would do is they would send the wire from the customer account to a different company account. And they'd send it a couple of minutes before the wires closed for the night. And then they would send this email right after the wires closed saying, Hey, we just realized we set this transfer fraud account got to reverse tomorrow. So that gave them at least one night of enough liquidity to survive. Now, you can only do that kind of fraud if you are actually keeping really close track of where your money is, where it's supposed to be, what the rules are, so that you know exactly how to break those rules. I don't think FDX was in any position to commit that kind of fraud. I think that if they tried to do something like that, like they wire the money from an account that didn't have any money in it or something or send it to the wrong account. There are these stories about them accidentally burning a bunch of USDC by sending it to an address that didn't exist or something like that. The operational slip ups actually make it harder for them to have committed fraud. And it's unquestionable at this point that their record keeping was very bad.Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:03Yeah, to your point about the fraud being harder. I mean, it's like a classic story about if you just tell the truth, it's just gonna be much easier for you. You just don't have to keep track with that many things. But the one thing I've been thinking about, I interviewed him for like an hour. And before that, I tried to do quite a bit of research into how FDX worked and what was going on. And I had this impression that this guy was like the most competent genius that had ever graced finance. And this was like a common impression. This wasn't just... And then, but it turns out that, you know, they were like, it just like out of sheer incompetency loses track of billions of dollars, the internal operations, it just like him putting together spreadsheets and throwing them around and putting emojis on slack messages, asking for payments. And I just like, I want to understand how it is that this guy put out the impression out there that he is just hyper competent. And it turns out that it's like the opposite. It's not even that he's mediocre. It's the opposite.Byrne Hobart 0:08:09Right. Yeah. So I think you can tell a couple stories there, like one story. And I know I've been saying a lot, like you can tell multiple stories. There are multiple stories that fit the facts. We have lots of different weird things to explain and therefore many different weird explanations that fit them. So I think one version is, okay, he's never all that smart and decided that he could just play up this weird, you know, eccentric genius thing. And that would be able to get away with it. And there are these anecdotes about how someone told him to cut his hair and he said, no, I have to look kind of crazy for this. And so that fits in. And it is kind of an MIT thing to do that, to play up your eccentricity because you know there are these super brilliant, very eccentric people and you can be like them. It's kind of like, a lot of people, they read about Steve Jobs and they're like, well, the secret to success is be this brilliant perfectionist who can always see the future and also be just a giant a*****e to everyone you meet. And I'm going to try to do both of those things. And it turns out one of those is really, really easy to do. And then one of them is really, really hard and you have to do both to be Steve Jobs. But you can sort of give this surface level impression of Jobsy and this by just being really obnoxious to everyone. So I think some of it is that. But the other is that if you get really good at just very narrow domain specific stuff, you might miss what other stuff people have to be good at for that skill set to be valuable. And so I think thinking about his previous background where he worked at a prop trading firm and seemed to do well there. It's Jane Street. They're very, very selective with who they hire, very hard to get in and they're very profitable. So good to get in. It's entirely possible that part of what happened was just that Jane Street has its operations people, they have their trading people. And it may there may have been enough siloing within that, that if your job is just identify discrepancies in ETF prices and take advantage of them, you don't actually have to know things like how do we figure out which counterparties are credit worthy? How do we make sure we have enough liquidity? How do we have backup plans upon backup plans upon backup plans in case something goes wrong with our liquidity situation? Because part of the Jane Street model seems to be there. They're very, very opaque, but like very opaque in terms of their trading operations. But part of the model seems to be that they want to be the trader who is there and trading and making a market when everything fell apart. And what that means is that like the way you make the most money in trading is when markets are insanely volatile, volume is very, very high, and you're still trading. But the reason that markets get really volatile when prices collapse and there's a lot of trade going on is that other people who would love to be trading can't trade because maybe the broker they use is suddenly insolvent and they can't get to a new broker, their money is frozen. So if you're planning to be there when everybody else is out of the market, then you have to have lots and lots of contingency plans. And it's not enough to buy lots of deep out of the money put options as Jane Street does. You also have to make sure that you're buying those options from counterparty who will actually send you the money when you need it or that you want to structure those things so the actual cash gets to your account at the time that needs to be there. And that maybe is something that a prop trader should not be spending most of their time thinking about. Like, it's one of those things where it's like, if you own a house and you like if over the last 24 hours, you learned a whole lot about electrical wiring, or you learned a whole lot about how plumbing works or how septic tanks work, like, that's not good. That means something very, very bad happened in your house. And it could be nice to be an expert on those things. But if you suddenly became an expert, it's because somebody else wasn't doing their job. So I think you could you could be a trader like that where they can be very good at the finding little pricing discrepancies thing and have just no awareness of what the operation stuff is, especially because the better the operations team is, the less anyone else needs to be aware of them. Like they like you only email them when something is going wrong. So if nothing is going wrong, you never email them and then you forget they exist.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:23Yeah, yeah, no, that's a good point. In fact, in the interview I did of him, he mentioned that I asked him what is the difference between Jane Street and FTX. And he mentioned that at Jane Street, there was like this button he could press to like buy. And all that's all the intermediaries, all the servers, it was just taken care of. And what was really funny is then he said, and just getting a bank account and he goes, and let's talk about that. Just getting a bank account is so hard when you're in an infinite. It apparently turns out it's so hard that you might have like commingled funds because you couldn't manage to separate them out. Yeah, no, that's crazy. You had this really interesting take. I think one point we were talking about how every single market crash can be explained by the drug that was common in the industry at the time. And we finally achieved like the hypergrade meth stage of I forgot the name of like that patch you was taking, but it's like stronger than Adderall or whatever.Byrne Hobart 0:13:23So it was, I think it's saying every crash can be explained by the drug they're taking at the time. That takes a little, but I do think that the impact of drugs, of new drugs on financial markets is underrated. And you can have examples of this going back pretty far. Like there is some connection between caffeine consumption and like extroversion and risk taking like you temporarily get a little bit more willing to do deals when you consume caffeine and in Lloyd's of London before it was this insurance consortium, it was a coffee shop. It was Lloyd's coffee shop. So you do have some history of coffee shops being associated with financial centers. And then you have to zoom forward because we just haven't had that many novel stimulants, I guess depressants, deliriums, whatever, like other drug categories probably just don't lead to that much financial activity. Like I don't know how someone would trade differently or invest differently if they had a really strong acid trip or took ecstasy or something. But the stimulants where people can just consistently reuse them, they keep people alert, they make them active and wanting to do things. It seems like stimulants would have a connection to financial markets. So yeah, that theory is like if you look at the 1980s where there were a lot of these hostile takeover deals where someone would find a company that's underperforming and when you look at the spreadsheets and say this company is underperforming, what you're often looking at is a story that is more like this company believes that they have this social obligation to the community where people work and that they have an obligation to give their customers a fairly priced product and maybe they give them really good customer service that doesn't really pay for itself and it's the right thing to do. Well maybe especially if you are a coke head with kind of coke head morality, you decide well that's not the right thing to do at all. You should actually just take the money and we should fire these people and replace them with cheaper employees. So you know levering up a company and then like levering up in order to buy out a bigger company and then firing everyone and you know shutting down the pension plan and distributing the surplus to shareholders like it is just very standard coke head behavior. Whereas if you look at the mortgage backed securities boom and structured products generally in the mid-2000s, the way that people made money in that was just by being very very detail oriented and being able to make these incredibly fine grained distinctions between different products that were basically similar but one of them pays 5.7% and one of them pays 5.75% and if you lever up that difference enough times you're actually making really good money consistently. It's super boring but maybe with enough Adderall it's actually very tolerable work that you can enjoy. So I do think that just like within stimulants the difference between short acting stimulants and long acting stimulants does mean the difference between a hostile takeover boom and a structured products boom. And then yeah there's I think the drug is called M-sem or something which is like a Parkinson's treatment and there's some evidence from pretty small sample size studies that one of the side effects of this drug is compulsive gambling. So yeah and the drug story there have been very very fun tweets about this claim and then there have been these official denials from the company doctor on the other hand if you're a company that has a company doctor maybe that says something about the level of medication you're consuming and maybe the company doctor's job is partly to say as a doctor I can assure you I would never give someone three times the normal dose of Adderall just because their boss hired me to do that specifically. I think dealers don't exactly have patient confidentiality norms, doctors do so maybe you hire a doctor instead of a dealer specifically to get that plausible deniability.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:12Other than drugs I also want to ask you about the phenotype of the founder. You wrote a post I think it was like just a couple of weeks before this crash happened where you were pointing out that this idea of a founder who comes in shorts and a t-shirt and a crazy haircut. By the way so FTX had a barber who would come in every Tuesday to cut everybody's hair it might have been Thursday and that so he could have just like sat in line and gotten his haircut like that was that was completely unnecessary the way he dressed and it was like very purposeful. But yeah so if that archetype of a founder who's in a t-shirt and shorts if that's been priced in and that's beta instead of alpha now what is the new phenotype and physiognomy of the founder? Where are you looking for alpha?Byrne Hobart 0:17:58Well I guess I would draw the distinction between like the physical type of someone versus their presentation and their dress. Yeah I don't know I'm sure someone could run some interesting numbers on that but I don't have a good sense of what exactly they'd get from that but in terms of you know how people public people publicly present that present themselves my guess is that yeah there will be this swing towards investing in people who look a little bit more formal a little bit more boring and these things are somewhat cyclical. Like I think part of you know part of the norm on investing in or you know treating basically treating the suit as a negative signal is that a lot of investors have this view that when the MBAs come into an industry a lot of the alpha is gone and it is true that MBAs at least you know there's it's like a decent market timing signal apparently that if a lot of people from Harvard Business School go straight into some field that field is probably peaking. So there's a little bit to that where the suit is some example of conformity on the other hand wearing a suit in Silicon Valley is an example of non-conformity and I guess outside of outside of New York within the US most of the time wearing a suit as a tech company founder would be this weird sign that you know you're either like you don't know what you're doing you don't know what the right signals are or you know you're about to testify to Congress and that's why you have a suit now. You're not not generally a great sign but maybe it is a sign that you are willing to do some more conformist things and that you could pay attention to details the details are boring and also that you are putting some you're making some kind of financial investment in in that particular appearance. So yeah I would I would guess that there is there will be a tilt away from the hyper informal founders but I also think that if you treat that hyper informality as either this attempt to gain the system and just say like I'm going to be as much I'm going to try to remind people of Mark Zuckerberg circa 2005 as much as possible so I can raise money and pretend to be the next big thing that is that's one thing people are signaling and then the other thing is they're just accidentally signaling total indifference to anything except the thing they're working on and maybe that's a good thing but maybe maybe it's a good thing in unregulated domains and then a really really bad thing in regulated domains like if you're investing in a medical devices company you you probably don't want a founder who just cannot focus on anything except the product because there are rules they have to follow and you know norms and things and yeah it gets bad if all they're focused on is this one element you know if the hyper focus is like just right perfectly calibrated that's good but then maybe maybe adjusting your appearances this way to say that you have correctly calibrated your hyper focus and you're going to get one thing right and it's going to be really really right like you're going to get things right they're going to be really really right and you've identified what things matter what things don't.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:02Yeah you'll lose track of your bank accounts. That's the dress itself but I also want to ask about the other characteristics you had this really interesting point in that blog post about how you know when you try to scout for talent when the talent is young you're over indexing for parental involvement and I'm curious if you had to identify somebody who had to be under the age of 18 or under the age of 20 what is the metric you're looking at that least indexes for parental involvement where they're being forced or encouraged by their parents to do it?Byrne Hobart 0:21:35I think the closest you could get is something that is either totally illegible to the parent's status like understanding of status or something that is actively low status and it's hard to hard to enumerate those and not just get swamped in well should this thing be low status the high status is actually terrible to say that you ever want to hire someone who was really good at x for some value of x but I do think that you so basically the origin of that point was that I was arguing that when you if you look at people who are at some percentile and they're in their 20s or 30s like a lot of like at a high percentile like a lot of it has to be that they have some combination of talent and have tried really hard there's probably been some element of luck but over time the luck starts to starts to wash out hopefully but the younger you go and this is probably just my experience of having kids like if you talk to your kids every day about multiplication they will start doing multiplication at a pretty early age and it's not that they are you know really really smart and they got to multiplication a couple years early it's that you push them in that direction and they were able to do it early so like the earlier you go the more you are over indexing on what the parents did what they emphasized and also what they told the kids was just part of the script and there are anecdotes about this from none of the specifics coming to mind but I remember anecdotes about people who grew up in lower middle class or below circumstances but would have one distant relative who owned a business and that made them aware that they could own a business and this is like a thing they could do it's part of the script now and that wasn't the only reason that they would have started business but it could be a reason that they decided to do that when they did and you have to imagine that for everyone who had one uncle who owned a scrap dealer or something that maybe there are five or ten or fifty people who grew up in similar circumstances had a similar level of innate ability and just didn't have anyone in their social circle who demonstrated to them that this was something you could actually do so I think like getting getting back to the talent identification problem but part of my thesis there was that it's it's really hard and it's getting harder that you had Y Combinator going after the relatively young talent versus what the medium BC was going after when YC started and then stuff like Pioneer and Emergent Ventures is going even younger and the younger you get the more it is this luck driven thing that is about what they got exposed to with the exception of prodigies so I'd like to think that if I encountered an eight-year-old Mozart I would be able to identify this person as just an extraordinary talent where like even if their parents were making them practice ten hours a day they couldn't be that good without talent and maybe something similar with the Polar Sisters where okay if I you know encounter a six-year-old who can routinely beat me at chess and so I go Google some you know read some chess books and then go back and try to beat them again and they're actually better and they're laughing at me and things like at some point you decide that this is actually natural talent but there's for a lot of other domains there's just so much room for parents to push one thing and do some combination of their kids talent and their own emphasis to get their kids really good at it and that's very hard to adjust for especially because if you ask the parents they're going to underestimate how much they overemphasize things because to them this is just a normal thing that everyone should be interested in and so you won't you won't get a good signal from asking parents and then you won't get a good signal from asking other people because they don't know how this family spends time at home and you know if if the medium family has more more YouTube and Netflix time and less you know less math practice time that family's just going to assume it's pretty pretty much their behavior is normal.Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:25It's a bit confusing because you also want to potentially include parental involvement in your estimate of how good this person will end up being if you think for example that giving somebody a shot to get started programming early is actually a big factor in putting them on that sort of like loop where they get better by practicing and they enjoy it more so on you might expect momentum more than mean reversion in that kind of like early start.Byrne Hobart 0:25:54Sure so I think part of part of what this gets to is the question of what are you optimizing for when you're doing a talent search and I think this is maybe one reason there could be some alpha left in talent search among people who are super young is that a lot of the academic institutions that are doing some form of talent search what they're pretty much optimizing for is how does this person do over the next year so you know if someone is a math prodigy and they get to join the math team at that school the school is not trying to optimize for will this person be proving novel theorems when they're 25 it's really will this seven-year-old be doing you know algebra by the time they're eight and that's that is still very tied to parental involvement especially once you know parents like kids they like structure and if you tell them this is the appropriate next thing to do with your kid then they're more likely to do it so you can post on that momentum for a while but what I think you the trap you can run into is that you identify people who are like 95th percentile talent with 99th percentile just super aggressive parents and that combination gets them to 99th percentile performance until they leave home and then they never do whatever that thing is ever again because they didn't really like it it was just something their parents pressured them into now maybe the ideal would be you get 99 percentile on both so the parents are putting them on this trajectory but the parents are actually aiming you know a very powerful rocket ship and it's going to go right in the right direction which is ideal and I think there's a there's a reasonable possibility that like I think there are there's like some level of just imprinting that young kids have where a lot of kids learn about programming when they're very young and that's something that they do from a very very early age and then it becomes the thing that they work on for their entire career obviously that has to be fairly new because it's not like they're you know from like anyone who was born before 1970 just had this constant yearning to program computers and could never satisfy it like those kids found something else to do maybe a generation before it was repairing transistor radios like mine did when he was a kid and maybe a century before that it was experimenting by building little internal combustion engines and seeing whether or not they explode like Henry Ford did with his friends at school and maybe before that like the earlier you got the harder it gets to really map these activities to anything concrete that we understand and can relate to but there's there's probably some extent to which you can you can sort of direct kids into whatever the modern instantiation of this long-term enduring tendency is and I guess one so one interesting example of that I've been reading the Robert Caro LBJ biography and there's this bit towards the end of the first volume where LBJ is put in charge of this fundraising organization for Democrats in Congress and when you read about it he sounds like a traitor he sounds like someone who was just born to be slinging currency derivatives or something because he is constantly on the phone constantly picking up rumors constantly sending money here and there and everywhere else and he's like always sending money overnight and then sending someone a telegram the day before saying you're going to get a package from Lyndon Baines Johnson and you're welcome so he's like he's doing this thing where he's constantly relentlessly optimizing every little tiny detail of some very complicated process clearly requires enormous working memory requires a very strong basically a very strong poker face like he has to be able to differentiate between someone who is begging for money because they are at they're pulling at 49% and with a little bit more money for newspaper ads they get to 50.1% versus someone who just wants the money or just is constantly freaking out by their nature so it requires a lot of the same character traits but 1930s were just not a great time to go to Wall Street maybe if LBJ had been born at a slightly different time that's that's just what he would have done and it would have been a very successful private equity executive or something but sometimes those these general skills they can translate into a lot of different areas and they get honed into very specific skills through through deliberate practice in those areas so if you have that combination of natural tendency and some level of motivation which in LBJ's case his dad was also a politician so he had this example of this is part of the life script you can't do it but he also had the example of his dad was broke after a while and so he he had this example of what not to do and ended up making good money for himself in addition to his political career yeah yeahDwarkesh Patel 0:30:35I'm glad you brought up the biography I'm reading it right now as well and the other biography by Robert Caro the power broker just for the audience the last episode or the second to last episode in the feed is we go deep into deep into that biography and talk about why it might be inaccurate in certain respects but what is what it is accurate and I think what Caro has a genius in is talking about the personalities of these great great men about the people who have really shaped their cities or their countries for decades and centuries there's many places where I mean I'm sure this is true for you if you understand like the economics of an issue he's talking about there's a lot to be left to care his explanation but the actual like the sort of breakdown of the personalities is just so fascinating and worth a reading care for but you know come to think of it so maybe the difference between the cases where you want to price in the parents involvement and the ones where you don't is where in situations like maybe being a politician where it really is about building a network building know-how building this sort of inarticulable knowledge from an early age it might be the case that in those situations just having connections and having parental involvement gets you far but if it's like becoming a programmer sure you'll like have done data structures by the time you're 16 but eventually you'll get to the point where you know everybody knows the basics and now you actually how to do interesting and cool things in computer science and now you're like a 95th percentile of spatial reasoning IQ is not going to get you that far but let me ask you about the care of biography because you had a really interesting comment that I've been warning you about as well in your in your review of the book or in your comment about the book you said it's worth speculating on how many lbg level figures exist today perhaps in domains outside of politics and how many caro level biographers there are who could do them justice so do you have some idea of who these figures are or if not that at least what areas you'd expect them to beByrne Hobart 0:32:34in I think a lot of people who are close to that tier and have some of the same personality types are in sales and corporate development and stuff like that where they you know they're they're building a big network they are constantly building out this giant levered balance sheet of favors you know favors out to them favors they owe to other people and like all forms of leverage it does allow you to grow a lot faster but you occasionally want these big big blowups so that's that's one place I would look I think if you try to look at the more you know pure executive founder types then it gets harder to find someone who would have exactly that kind of personality it's like part of what made lbj's methods work was that he was adjacent to a bunch of these really big institutions and he could sort of siphon off some of the power that these institutions had and in some cases could make them more powerful so I'm about a third of the way through master of the senate right now so it's it's just getting to the point where he's really getting cooking and really making the senate more more effective than it used to be and also making it an organization where someone where it's less seniority based so you kind of you need to be attached to something much bigger than yourself for that particular skill set to work really well that said you could have a really big impact because it is it's another form of leverage so if you are one of a hundred senators or I guess at the point at that point it was 96 senators and you're you're able to exert a lot more influence and be you know be the equivalent to 40 senators for example then you can get a whole lot done because it's it's the us senate but if you have that same kind of skill set and you're the ceo of your company well you're you're already in front of the company like there's only so much extra force you can exert so you you kind of see a figure with exactly that kind of personality trait in a case where there are big institutions that have slowed down somewhat and this is another interesting point that is raised early master at the senate is that the senate was getting old and if you look at these long-term charts of average age of politicians we're we're definitely in a bull market for extremely extremely old politicians in the u.s right now but we've gone through cycles before and one of the things that that tends to cause a reset is the war where wars among other things cause this huge reset in social capital so the people who made mistakes in the early stages all get discredited and then the the social bonds that people forge from actually fighting alongside one another and the the prestige you get from actually being part of the winning side that is very hard to replicate and so you end up with much younger people in much you know in positions of a lot more power whereas the the way that that worked a decade and a half earlier was the 1930s there just weren't a lot of organizations that were hiring heavily and looking for really ambitious young people who are going to shake things up but the u.s government was so that's that's how lbj got in and started on his path was that the new deal created these big programs like the national youth administration and they needed people like johnson to to run them so when you look at um you look at an industry that is aging it's usually an industry where um ambitious people stay away from it like they recognize it's becoming more seniority focused and there's just less going on but there becomes this huge opportunity when the aging stops because a bunch of people either retire or they get discredited and have to leave and suddenly the average age of the industry ratchets down and you can basically look at the set of opportunities that were missed over the previous decade for example because um because the industry was like the whatever this institution was was too risk averse you you get to take all of those opportunities at once so you have tons and tons of low-hanging fruit when that shift happens so i think that's that's the other thing to look for is look for cases where there's some some institution some part of the economy or society that has just been slowing down for a long time clearly getting to the limit of whatever its current operating model is hasn't found a new model and there's someone young and disruptive who's just entering it so i mean maybe maybe the place to look for the next lbj is um someone doing independent films and someone who looks at the top box office results and sees that everything is a spin-off of a spin-off of a spin-off and it's you know 50 percent marvel and says this is disgusting we have to destroy it and i'm going to build something completely different like maybe that person is actually the kind of lbj archetype now the other half of this question is the caro archetype and part of what i found fun about this was that um i felt like caro had this kind of um like he was kind of disgusted with himself when he realized how similar his some of his methods were to lbj's because he's writing this story about this guy who's will do anything to make a sort of friendship but it's really a fake friendship just to accomplish his goals and he's constantly doing doing the reading that other people aren't doing and doing the work and making the calls and reiterating and reiterating iterating just endless patience and then you read about how caro works and he does things like moves to dc for a while talks to everyone in dc befriends people goes to um texas talks you know moves to the hill country and gets to know people there he has these anecdotes in the book because the book is like um it's sort of has these hints of gonzo journalism where sometimes caro will just narrate it's that he'll he will go from here's what happened in 1946 to here's what happened to me in the 70s while i was talking to this guy about what he did in 1946 and sometimes he he will basically come out and say i waited until the person who paid this bribe had alzheimer's and then i asked him if he remembered paying the bribe and he remembered that he did it and didn't remember he wasn't supposed to say it so that's how i know and um there's this line that caro keeps quoting from lbj which i think was from lbj's speech coach days or speech like debate team coach days where his line was if you do everything you will win and caro does everything um so i think probably the population of caros is smaller than the population of lbj's because the people who have that skill set probably have ambitions other than writing a canonical book about one particular person or you know writing two canonical books two canonical works on um two important people but maybe a lot of those people are just doing thingsDwarkesh Patel 0:39:03other than typing man there's so many threads there that i i'm like tempted to just spend the rest of the episode just digesting um and talking about that but one thing that i like there's so many interesting things about caro's story uh and i guess the impact is that one of them is there's been this focus in terms of thinking about impact especially in like circles like effective altruism of trying to crunch the numbers and there's no reasonable crunching into the numbers you could have come up with before the power broker is written where you say i'm going to spend by the way this is he tries to downplay his accomplishments as a journalist before he wrote the power broker but he was nominated for the pulitzer prize for his journalism before the power broker so he's like a top level uh investigative journalist and then you say here's i'm going to spend my talents i'm going to spend eight years looking into and researching every conceivable person who has even potentially been in the same room as or been impacted by robert moses and i'm going to document all this i'm going to write a book where that's like million words or something and but in fact that's he probably didn't think about it this way right but what was the result he probably that book probably changed how many of the most influential people who came up through politics uh think about politics think it probably changed how urban governance is done how we think about accountability and transparency for good or ill right depending on your perspective um and just that example alone really makes me suspect the sort of number crunching way of thinking about what to do and rather just like i don't know i gotta understand how the you know from procurus perspective i gotta understand how this guy accumulated this power he doesn't and it like completely transforms uh you know how urbanByrne Hobart 0:40:41governance has been yeah you know it actually uh kind of looping back to the the parental influence thing i think part of what happened was that the more caro dug into it the more he realized this is actually a big and compelling project and there's there's this kind of fun phenomenon that you can get when you're researching something where you you you've read enough that when you read something new and you see that there's a footnote you actually know what is going to be cited in that footnote and maybe you've also read the thing about how the thing in that footnote is wrong and here's why and um you know you're picking up information a lot faster you get that that nice convexity where you can skim through the stuff you know and everything you read is new information and challenges something about what you what you previously knew and that's just a really intoxicating feeling and i can imagine that it's even more fun if you're actually digging up the primary sources so you know if you're caro you've gone through the new york times archives you've read through all of the all the external coverage of what people said about most time and then you start talking to people and you realize here are things that were we got completely wrong like we thought moses didn't want x to happen and it turns out that he kept scheming and plotting to make x happen and just wanted to pretend that it wasn't his doing um you so i think that but what happens is you you build this ongoing motivation and then you can you can make something that you just wouldn't be able to make before and i think if um if you start out saying i'm going to write a million words about how cities are run um you will probably fail but if you keep writing another 500 words a day about how robert moses operated and what he did and then you have some reflections throughout that on what that means for cities then then maybe maybe you actually get there and yeah so um and and maybe some of this is like you you want to have an adversary like a lot of these like the carol books do seem partly to be this cross-examination of of who he's writing about and often he he seems to have very mixed feelings like he you know with um i think one of the one of the really interesting things in um in the years of lyndon johnson is the carol's description of um coke stevenson and how they contrast him with lbj because it's really clear that uh carol's politics are completely opposed to stevenson's and that when carol's writing about lbj there's like the good stuff he did which is the great society and his his participation in the new zealand and there's a bad stuff which is anything that wasn't bad and um so he clearly like he likes what lbj accomplished and despises the person and then really likes the person of coke stevenson and kind of wishes him well but also doesn't actually want people like that to be in charge of anything and so it's like a you know it's partly partly carol debating with his subject and interrogating his subject and partly debating with himself and asking these very long-standing questions about whether or not justify the ends and you know would it be worth it to not have a great society in exchange for not letting lbj steal an election in 1948 and i don't think that like if he's good at his writing he shouldn't be coming to firm conclusions on that and he should be presenting this very very mixed picture where you really only get the things you really want if you also accept that there are some very bad things that come along with that as long as as long as the things you want come from powerful ambitious people who will do anything to win hey guysDwarkesh Patel 0:44:14i hope you're enjoying the conversation so far if you are i would really really appreciate it if you could share the episode with other people who you think might like it this is still a pretty small podcast so it's basically impossible for me to exaggerate how much it helps out when one of you shares the podcast you know put the episode and the group chat you have with your friends post it on twitter send it to somebody who you think might like it all of those things helps out a ton anyways back to the conversation yep yep no and it's worth remembering that it takes him a decade to write each of those volumes and each of that i guess in the case of the power broker or that entire book but in the course of a decade just imagine how many times you would change your mind on a given subject and you really notice this when you read different paragraphs of like for example the power broker where you notice um early on if you just read the first third or the first half the power broker you're like clearly caro is like writing about uh uh robert moses the way he writes about robert linden johnson where it's like yeah this guy had some flaws but like look at the cool s**t he did and the awesome stuff he did for new york um and then the tone completely changes but you gotta remember it's he's just writing this so many years and uh in between i do want to uh talk about the thing about you know young people being able to you know young people i guess a war being a catalyst for young people entering an arena i did an interview of um alexander mikorovitsky i forgot his last name but anyways he wrote a really interesting book about the polyonic wars and this is actually one of the things we talked about um there's a line from war and peace where one of the russian aristocrats is mad that his son is joining uh is joining the war and he goes you know it's is that man napoleon you you've all seen him and now you all want to like go off to war and i'm curious um like filmmaking doesn't seem like we're super quantitative and super smart and super competent like somebody who has thymus and the desire to dominate and the desire to achieve recognition uh i mean do you really think he's making films like where where is he really i mean is he like still trying to start a startup or is that like now a decade too old and now he's trying to dominate some other arena i mean maybe the lame answer is we don'tByrne Hobart 0:46:31actually know because um the way like you know paul graham has that essay about the trope of startups starting in garages and i think it's called the power of the marginal and it's all about how the the really interesting projects are the ones that can barely get off the ground because they're so weird and so out there that there is no infrastructure to support them and what that ends up doing is selecting for people who are extremely passionate about that project and also people who are extremely willful and will get impossible things done so you it's hard to just rattle off a bunch of examples of that because you your hit rate would be like 99 things out of 100 are just like things you read one fun blog post speculating about and they're actually never going to happen and then you know one of them maybe maybe you're right but it's very hard to tell which one it is and you know if it were very easy venture capital would not have such such skewed returns so yeah so maybe maybe it is like harder to harder to optimize for what area do you look for maybe it's actually easier to do the meta optimization of identifying the things you would quit you know quit podcasting and go work on given the opportunity and you know it's like good to have that sort of dread list like I I had that mental list of like you know if someone at Spotify ping me and they're like we really need a product manager who can help us display classical music such that we don't list like tons of redundant information and the first 50 characters of the track name and the actual incremental useful information in the 10 characters you have to wait for it to scroll through unless it doesn't actually scroll through like if someone pinged me it was like we really need someone to fix that can you come and do this I'd be sorely tempted feel the same way about Google Finance like if if if someone emails me and says you have a mandate to make Google Finance good I'd be tempted but I think thinking of like what industries would have that kind of pull for you and then what can you do to really dig into those industries you probably find the the the proto successful people in spaces like that versus trying to optimize in advance for well if I were you know if I were someone who thinks like nobody else thinks and we're a true natural contrarian and also had spent several years learning about different opportunities which one would I have ended up picking because then you're sort of magicking away all of the things that actually make the person you're looking for it's looking for so yeah can't quite be done that way yeah yeah yeah I want to go backDwarkesh Patel 0:49:05to that thing you said a moment ago about how you couldn't have written a million words that were as impactful about just you know how cities work but if you just wrote 500 words at a time about how Robert Moses accumulated power did the things he did you can actually have a really interesting and influential piece of work is that how you see the diff that you can't write one million words at a time about where where technology is going what's happening with the productivity slowdown what's happening with all these emerging industries but if you just write 2,000 words a day about what's happening with any particular you know company or industry then you can compile this really interesting overall worldview aboutByrne Hobart 0:49:44finance and tech that's the hope and I might be projecting things about my own attention span on to on to Cairo when I say that you can't just set out to do a million words on topic X and then do it but I do think you know I hope that I am by increments producing something that is a lot more than the sum of a bunch of business profiles and a bunch of you know strategy breakdown things like that like and that's that's one of the reasons that I spent time on things like reading Machiavelli and thinking about how Machiavelli's thoughts not just not just the the totally cynical amoral stuff but the other stuff you wrote at the same time which he may have met more seriously about how to build a sustainable and good republic rather than how to be a completely amoral monarch I try to read that kind of thing because I do think that it's valuable to have that more rounded view of the human condition and and I think that it contributes a lot to to writing about these individual companies like you know technology changes a lot humans change very slowly so if you if you want to understand technology you do have to study that this specific object level case of what is this thing what does it do differently what is it a substitute for what are the compliments to it etc but if you're trying to understand things like why did this company do X like why why did they fire fire this person and not that person and why did they choose to acquire this other business why is the CEO dumping tons of money into this thing that seems like it's it doesn't make much sense well you can find lots of historical examples of people in power making these decisions that just get continuously worse and continuously more costly and they refuse to back down sometimes they turn to be right sometimes they turn to be very very wrong but you'll find more examples of that if you go back further in history and they're often just a lot more fun to read about whereas like you know if you you can read about things like board spending too much money on the pencil and it not working out or IBM investing a ton in the 360 and that working out very nicely but you know you can also go back to the Iliad and read another case where sunk cost fallacy dominated rational strictly rational decision making and you know only divine intervention could ultimately lead to a good outcome for for the attacker and even then maybe not suchDwarkesh Patel 0:52:04great outcome often considered the that particular question about where trying to predict if somebody is overstepping or if they're making the best bet of their life is something that I've been trying to think about and I really have no reasonable method for I mean if you think about like what Elon Musk is doing with Twitter is this like Napoleon trying to conquer Russia and it's this super ego filled and pride filled you know completely illogical bet from somebody who has just had like 20 consecutive wins in a row and he thinks he's invincible or is it like Elon Musk like 20 years ago where he's like yeah I did PayPal and now let's you know let's build some rockets and let's build some electric vehicles yeah exactly and in each of these cases there's there's like so many analogies to like complete bust and there's so many analogies to oh this is just like part one of this grand plan and how do you figure out what which one is happening like how do you distinguish the visionary from the collapsing you know star the cynical answer is you wait about 200 years and thenByrne Hobart 0:53:18you write about how it was obvious all along like yeah you you really don't and I mean even there are a lot of cases that are actually still ambiguous so like Alexander you know conquered most of the known world at least most of the world that that people knew of around where he grew up and and then just goes to Babylon and drinks himself to death and that's the end right you know there there could have been an alternate story where he gets his life together a little bit and runs a giant sprawling empire on the other hand like reading the story battle to battle a lot of it it actually is basically this Ponzi scheme where every time he conquers a city he gets enough enough to pay off the people he hired to help him conquer the city and then has to move to the next city because they want to get paid again and so he's sort of you know was sort of being chased by his his obligations the entire way through until he finally got got just ahead of them enough to get a lot of loot and and a lot of land that could give people instead of just giving money so giving them like bars of silver and things so so yeah even even that story it's very hard to say you know he he rolled the dice a bunch of times and he won every time so clearly he was just one of those people who's born to win maybe it was sort of like he actually backed himself into a bunch of corners over and over and over again and then desperately fought his way out every single time and then was just completely sick of it and burnt out by the time he was in his early 30s in terms of how you would figure it out in advance like I think some of it does come down to getting a sense of whether they're responding to circumstances or whether they actually have have a long-term plan but then lots of like you know there's probably nothing more dangerous than a long-term plan that someone actually has the means to execute you know five-year plan does not have a good connotation Stalin had some of those and didn't turn out well for for a lot of people so even within that there's there's some difficulty in evaluating like I think there's kind of that that meta-cynical layer where if they don't know what they're doing then probably it's dumb luck they keep succeeding on the other hand if they do know what they're doing then maybe you hope that the world is lucky enough that they get unlucky and can't actually pull off whatever it is that they're they're planning to do maybe I guess another thing would be is there is there like an end state that they can get to because I think you know someone like Alexander he basically just kept going until he couldn't go any farther until his troops were basically on the point of mutiny and then just turned around and went not all the way home but went to like the nicest place halfway home and hung out there and partied but you know if if the story if you look at someone if the story is less about conquest and more about reconquest and restoration of something then there are these natural limits you can say like you go this far and you don't go any farther because you've actually finished your task so something like you know I think like I don't actually know who was who what which generals were on the other side of Napoleon but the ones who chased him out of Russia like for them the master plan was not we're going to conquer all of Europe the master plan was like we're getting our country back and then we're going to chase him far enough that he doesn't feel like he can just wait a year and do this again when it's not winter so so maybe that's that's another way to constrain it but then then you end up naturally selecting for less ambitious people it's like one way to one way to have these guardrails on your behavior is just don't have very big ambitions so you might and in that case those people are also stuck responding to circumstances so so maybe maybe you just end up with many different iterations of the same thing on different scales where everyone is stuck in certain historical circumstances they have they have their skills they have their opportunities they can they can go after some things maybe they achieve great things maybe they fail but either way eventually their luck runs out or they run out of ideas and then there's nothing to do except go home or just keep trying to keep keep being bolder until you eventually fail on most particularly I I don't really I don't really understand it I think there's like a remote possibility that he actually has a bunch of specific concrete ideas for how to increase Twitter's free cash flow and how to pay down the debt and make it a more profitable company maybe he just had that sense that it was overstaffed and that it should survive with a smaller headcount and if you cut headcount enough then you you end up with with a profitable business it could also just have been fun and seems fun so far and I think like that you know the the pursuit of fun is is not to be discounted like you if you're super rich you can afford to do all sorts of things varying levels of entertainment but it may be that the only thing that is actually like truly novel thrill seeking fun opportunity is something like buy Twitter and then turn it into you know what it is and it is like there's I think Rostad that at this this point about how the nature of Twitter's legitimacy has changed and that now it is a it is under the rule of a single monarch instead of ruled by these sort of faceless bureaucracies so now you know if something if Twitter does something you don't like there's actually a specific person you can blame and because you have Twitter you can actually yell at that person and potentially get an answer whereas if Twitter bans you because you made a joke and the joke looked like it was serious there's really there's no recourse and you know there's there's nothing lower status than someone like arguing with someone in authority about how serious or they should take your jokes there's like you know it's like a weird component of and it works both ways so like there's I think I started noticing this years ago because there are these underscore TXT Twitter accounts where they're just posting out of context comments from some niche community and the comments always sound deranged in a lot of cases to me the comments read as someone who is doing a bit they're playing a role they know it's funny they're exaggerating for their friends and then you take it out of context and read it as totally seriously and then you get to say these people are all like this they're all crazy but it is like it is a marker of high status to be able to not get jokes and to you know be able to be like righteously angry at someone because they made a joke and if they've been serious that would have been an appalling thing to say but they obviously weren't if you if you can get away with saying no I actually don't think it was a joke at all these people are humorless and they must have been totally serious then that's that's actually you know that's cool that's high status makes you impressive but yeah must like must must rule as this more you know personal monarch I think it's a it speaks to this question of legitimacy like why do people trust moderation and why do they trust sites to operate in the way that they do and you can either say these are like really high quality institutions so you know

Perhaps the most interesting episode so far.Byrne Hobart writes at thediff.co, analyzing inflections in finance and tech.He explains:* What happened at FTX* How drugs have induced past financial bubbles* How to be long AI while hedging Taiwan invasion* Whether Musk's Twitter takeover will succeed* Where to find the next Napoleon and LBJ* & ultimately how society can deal with those who seek domination and recognitionWatch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here.Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.If you enjoy this episode, I would be super grateful if you shared it. Post it on Twitter, send it to your friends & group chats, and throw it up wherever else people might find it. Can't exaggerate how much it helps a small podcast like mine.A huge thanks to Graham Bessellieu for editing this podcast.Timestamps: (0:00:50) - What the hell happened at FTX?(0:07:03) - How SBF Faked Being a Genius:  (0:12:23) - Drugs Explain Financial Bubbles (0:17:12) - On Founder Physiognomy (0:21:02) - Indexing Parental Involvement in Raising Talented Kids (0:30:35) - Where are all the Caro-level Biographers? (0:39:03) - Where are today's Great Founders?  (0:49:05) - Micro Writing -> Macro Understanding (0:52:04) - Elon's Twitter Takeover (1:01:28) - Does Big Tech & West Have Great People? (1:12:10) - Philosophical Fanatics and Effective Altruism  (1:17:54) - What Great Founders Have In Common (1:20:24) - Thinkers vs. Analyzers (1:26:17) - Taiwan Invasion bets & AI Timelines TranscriptAutogenerated - will not be perfectly accurate.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:00Okay, today I have the pleasure of interviewing Bern Hobart again for the second time now, who writes at thediff.co. The way I would describe Bern is every time I have a question about a concept or an event in finance, I Google the name of that event or concept into Google, and then I'd put in Bern Hobart at the end of that search query. And nine times out of 10, it's the best thing I've read about that topic. And it's just so interesting. It's just like the most schizophrenic and galaxy brain it takes about like how, you know, the discourses of, you know, Machiavelli's discourses relate to big tech or like how source of serial reflexivity explains hiring in finance and tech. So just very interesting stuff. I'm glad to have him back on again.Byrne Hobart 0:00:47Yeah, great to be back. Awesome.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:50Okay. So first, I really want to jump into the FTX saga. What the hell happened? Let me just like leave an open ended question for you.Byrne Hobart 0:00:59Yeah, so I think the first thing to say is that there's a lot we don't know. There's a lot we may never know, because so many of the decisions at FTX were made through self like auto deleting encrypted chat. So like there are some holes we will never be able to fill in. The lack of accounting is also going to make it tough. Like basically, I think you can tell a bunch of different stories here. The really obvious one is fraud. And you can debate over exactly when it started, like one version of the story, which is getting some currency is that SPF had this entity Alameda, and it was supposed to be this really hot crypto trading fund, but maybe it was a Ponzi scheme all along. And then maybe at some point that Ponzi scheme started to run short on cash. So he decided to start an exchange and the exchange got more cash, and then he used the cash to pay off previous bachelors, whatever. I think that's one version. And then kind of the maximally exculpatory version, which actually is still really bad is Alameda was a real company. They really made money trading. They took tons of risks. And SPF has talked about why he thinks that's a good thing, that FTX cut some corners when they were raising money and that they had really bad internal accounting. And that basically the extended entity of Alameda and FTX sort of lost track of whose money was where and it ended up with Alameda spending FTX customer money, which I think is like, one way to look at that is like, if you think, okay, fraud is like twice as bad as just incompetently losing money. Well, it's not as if we had a $4 billion fraud instead of $8 billion fraud, everyone would be like, well, that's fine. That's normal. Like, why are you giving sky high time? It's bad no matter what. Running a big company that is systemically important in crypto and then having that company completely vaporize over the course of a couple of days, really, really bad and worth understanding what happened. But it's partly worth understanding what happened because there are just different solutions that present themselves depending on what you think the story is. Like if the story is fraud, it's actually a lot harder to solve because there are just a lot of people who are willing and able to commit fraud and to lie. If the story is bad accounting, then that's actually a lot more solvable because then you could say things like, the solution is make sure you never invest in a crypto exchange that doesn't have a real auditor and make sure that they have their proof of reserves calculation and it's happening consistently and that you can audit that. There are different solution sets. And then I think the actual story is going to be somewhere in the middle of extreme risk tolerance plus extremely poor accounting plus fraud at some point. But I suspect the fraud actually happened pretty late. If it happened, which I think there's like 80, 90% chance that there was some level of fraud versus pure incompetence. But if so, I think may have happened fairly late in the story and as kind of a last desperate move. I think part of what drives the response to what happened with FTX and Alameda is that if you think the story is pure fraud, it's very easy to say you would never do that. I can say very easily, I would definitely never start a Ponzi scheme and then start another bigger Ponzi scheme to pay off the first Ponzi scheme. That's not me. That's not most people. But I think if you draw the scenario where they discover at some point like a couple months ago or even a month ago, they realized, hey, we actually there's a billion dollars plus that was supposed to be customer money, but we thought it was Alameda money and we actually spent it and now it's gone. We've lost it. What would you do in that circumstance? And I think the ideal answer is, well, I'd immediately come clean and step down and commit myself to getting everyone paid back and made whole. And I think there's also the possibility that the realistic answer is more like, well, I would scramble and try to make sure that that didn't cause the company to collapse and try to pick up later. And so at that point, you've sort of backed your way into fraud through earlier episodes of incompetence. But I think like one of the problems with the fraud story is frauds have to be good at accounting because they have to like, you know, there's very rough schematic sense. They have to be twice as good at accounting as everybody else, because not only do they have to have the real books that tell them how much money the business has and whether or not the next check they're at will bounce, but they have to have the fake set of books and they have to have a way to make those tie out with one another. So they actually like frauds, accounting frauds tend to be fairly sophisticated. They tend to really dive into edge cases. I was reading up on MF Global, which was a big futures brokerage that collapsed in part because they were dipping into customer funds and making some investments they shouldn't have. And they did a lot of clever and shady stuff. Like one of the things they would do is there was one point where they were transferring money at the last minute out of their consumer, out of their customer funds in order to make margin calls. And what they would do is they would send the wire from the customer account to a different company account. And they'd send it a couple of minutes before the wires closed for the night. And then they would send this email right after the wires closed saying, Hey, we just realized we set this transfer fraud account got to reverse tomorrow. So that gave them at least one night of enough liquidity to survive. Now, you can only do that kind of fraud if you are actually keeping really close track of where your money is, where it's supposed to be, what the rules are, so that you know exactly how to break those rules. I don't think FDX was in any position to commit that kind of fraud. I think that if they tried to do something like that, like they wire the money from an account that didn't have any money in it or something or send it to the wrong account. There are these stories about them accidentally burning a bunch of USDC by sending it to an address that didn't exist or something like that. The operational slip ups actually make it harder for them to have committed fraud. And it's unquestionable at this point that their record keeping was very bad.Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:03Yeah, to your point about the fraud being harder. I mean, it's like a classic story about if you just tell the truth, it's just gonna be much easier for you. You just don't have to keep track with that many things. But the one thing I've been thinking about, I interviewed him for like an hour. And before that, I tried to do quite a bit of research into how FDX worked and what was going on. And I had this impression that this guy was like the most competent genius that had ever graced finance. And this was like a common impression. This wasn't just... And then, but it turns out that, you know, they were like, it just like out of sheer incompetency loses track of billions of dollars, the internal operations, it just like him putting together spreadsheets and throwing them around and putting emojis on slack messages, asking for payments. And I just like, I want to understand how it is that this guy put out the impression out there that he is just hyper competent. And it turns out that it's like the opposite. It's not even that he's mediocre. It's the opposite.Byrne Hobart 0:08:09Right. Yeah. So I think you can tell a couple stories there, like one story. And I know I've been saying a lot, like you can tell multiple stories. There are multiple stories that fit the facts. We have lots of different weird things to explain and therefore many different weird explanations that fit them. So I think one version is, okay, he's never all that smart and decided that he could just play up this weird, you know, eccentric genius thing. And that would be able to get away with it. And there are these anecdotes about how someone told him to cut his hair and he said, no, I have to look kind of crazy for this. And so that fits in. And it is kind of an MIT thing to do that, to play up your eccentricity because you know there are these super brilliant, very eccentric people and you can be like them. It's kind of like, a lot of people, they read about Steve Jobs and they're like, well, the secret to success is be this brilliant perfectionist who can always see the future and also be just a giant a*****e to everyone you meet. And I'm going to try to do both of those things. And it turns out one of those is really, really easy to do. And then one of them is really, really hard and you have to do both to be Steve Jobs. But you can sort of give this surface level impression of Jobsy and this by just being really obnoxious to everyone. So I think some of it is that. But the other is that if you get really good at just very narrow domain specific stuff, you might miss what other stuff people have to be good at for that skill set to be valuable. And so I think thinking about his previous background where he worked at a prop trading firm and seemed to do well there. It's Jane Street. They're very, very selective with who they hire, very hard to get in and they're very profitable. So good to get in. It's entirely possible that part of what happened was just that Jane Street has its operations people, they have their trading people. And it may there may have been enough siloing within that, that if your job is just identify discrepancies in ETF prices and take advantage of them, you don't actually have to know things like how do we figure out which counterparties are credit worthy? How do we make sure we have enough liquidity? How do we have backup plans upon backup plans upon backup plans in case something goes wrong with our liquidity situation? Because part of the Jane Street model seems to be there. They're very, very opaque, but like very opaque in terms of their trading operations. But part of the model seems to be that they want to be the trader who is there and trading and making a market when everything fell apart. And what that means is that like the way you make the most money in trading is when markets are insanely volatile, volume is very, very high, and you're still trading. But the reason that markets get really volatile when prices collapse and there's a lot of trade going on is that other people who would love to be trading can't trade because maybe the broker they use is suddenly insolvent and they can't get to a new broker, their money is frozen. So if you're planning to be there when everybody else is out of the market, then you have to have lots and lots of contingency plans. And it's not enough to buy lots of deep out of the money put options as Jane Street does. You also have to make sure that you're buying those options from counterparty who will actually send you the money when you need it or that you want to structure those things so the actual cash gets to your account at the time that needs to be there. And that maybe is something that a prop trader should not be spending most of their time thinking about. Like, it's one of those things where it's like, if you own a house and you like if over the last 24 hours, you learned a whole lot about electrical wiring, or you learned a whole lot about how plumbing works or how septic tanks work, like, that's not good. That means something very, very bad happened in your house. And it could be nice to be an expert on those things. But if you suddenly became an expert, it's because somebody else wasn't doing their job. So I think you could you could be a trader like that where they can be very good at the finding little pricing discrepancies thing and have just no awareness of what the operation stuff is, especially because the better the operations team is, the less anyone else needs to be aware of them. Like they like you only email them when something is going wrong. So if nothing is going wrong, you never email them and then you forget they exist.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:23Yeah, yeah, no, that's a good point. In fact, in the interview I did of him, he mentioned that I asked him what is the difference between Jane Street and FTX. And he mentioned that at Jane Street, there was like this button he could press to like buy. And all that's all the intermediaries, all the servers, it was just taken care of. And what was really funny is then he said, and just getting a bank account and he goes, and let's talk about that. Just getting a bank account is so hard when you're in an infinite. It apparently turns out it's so hard that you might have like commingled funds because you couldn't manage to separate them out. Yeah, no, that's crazy. You had this really interesting take. I think one point we were talking about how every single market crash can be explained by the drug that was common in the industry at the time. And we finally achieved like the hypergrade meth stage of I forgot the name of like that patch you was taking, but it's like stronger than Adderall or whatever.Byrne Hobart 0:13:23So it was, I think it's saying every crash can be explained by the drug they're taking at the time. That takes a little, but I do think that the impact of drugs, of new drugs on financial markets is underrated. And you can have examples of this going back pretty far. Like there is some connection between caffeine consumption and like extroversion and risk taking like you temporarily get a little bit more willing to do deals when you consume caffeine and in Lloyd's of London before it was this insurance consortium, it was a coffee shop. It was Lloyd's coffee shop. So you do have some history of coffee shops being associated with financial centers. And then you have to zoom forward because we just haven't had that many novel stimulants, I guess depressants, deliriums, whatever, like other drug categories probably just don't lead to that much financial activity. Like I don't know how someone would trade differently or invest differently if they had a really strong acid trip or took ecstasy or something. But the stimulants where people can just consistently reuse them, they keep people alert, they make them active and wanting to do things. It seems like stimulants would have a connection to financial markets. So yeah, that theory is like if you look at the 1980s where there were a lot of these hostile takeover deals where someone would find a company that's underperforming and when you look at the spreadsheets and say this company is underperforming, what you're often looking at is a story that is more like this company believes that they have this social obligation to the community where people work and that they have an obligation to give their customers a fairly priced product and maybe they give them really good customer service that doesn't really pay for itself and it's the right thing to do. Well maybe especially if you are a coke head with kind of coke head morality, you decide well that's not the right thing to do at all. You should actually just take the money and we should fire these people and replace them with cheaper employees. So you know levering up a company and then like levering up in order to buy out a bigger company and then firing everyone and you know shutting down the pension plan and distributing the surplus to shareholders like it is just very standard coke head behavior. Whereas if you look at the mortgage backed securities boom and structured products generally in the mid-2000s, the way that people made money in that was just by being very very detail oriented and being able to make these incredibly fine grained distinctions between different products that were basically similar but one of them pays 5.7% and one of them pays 5.75% and if you lever up that difference enough times you're actually making really good money consistently. It's super boring but maybe with enough Adderall it's actually very tolerable work that you can enjoy. So I do think that just like within stimulants the difference between short acting stimulants and long acting stimulants does mean the difference between a hostile takeover boom and a structured products boom. And then yeah there's I think the drug is called M-sem or something which is like a Parkinson's treatment and there's some evidence from pretty small sample size studies that one of the side effects of this drug is compulsive gambling. So yeah and the drug story there have been very very fun tweets about this claim and then there have been these official denials from the company doctor on the other hand if you're a company that has a company doctor maybe that says something about the level of medication you're consuming and maybe the company doctor's job is partly to say as a doctor I can assure you I would never give someone three times the normal dose of Adderall just because their boss hired me to do that specifically. I think dealers don't exactly have patient confidentiality norms, doctors do so maybe you hire a doctor instead of a dealer specifically to get that plausible deniability.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:12Other than drugs I also want to ask you about the phenotype of the founder. You wrote a post I think it was like just a couple of weeks before this crash happened where you were pointing out that this idea of a founder who comes in shorts and a t-shirt and a crazy haircut. By the way so FTX had a barber who would come in every Tuesday to cut everybody's hair it might have been Thursday and that so he could have just like sat in line and gotten his haircut like that was that was completely unnecessary the way he dressed and it was like very purposeful. But yeah so if that archetype of a founder who's in a t-shirt and shorts if that's been priced in and that's beta instead of alpha now what is the new phenotype and physiognomy of the founder? Where are you looking for alpha?Byrne Hobart 0:17:58Well I guess I would draw the distinction between like the physical type of someone versus their presentation and their dress. Yeah I don't know I'm sure someone could run some interesting numbers on that but I don't have a good sense of what exactly they'd get from that but in terms of you know how people public people publicly present that present themselves my guess is that yeah there will be this swing towards investing in people who look a little bit more formal a little bit more boring and these things are somewhat cyclical. Like I think part of you know part of the norm on investing in or you know treating basically treating the suit as a negative signal is that a lot of investors have this view that when the MBAs come into an industry a lot of the alpha is gone and it is true that MBAs at least you know there's it's like a decent market timing signal apparently that if a lot of people from Harvard Business School go straight into some field that field is probably peaking. So there's a little bit to that where the suit is some example of conformity on the other hand wearing a suit in Silicon Valley is an example of non-conformity and I guess outside of outside of New York within the US most of the time wearing a suit as a tech company founder would be this weird sign that you know you're either like you don't know what you're doing you don't know what the right signals are or you know you're about to testify to Congress and that's why you have a suit now. You're not not generally a great sign but maybe it is a sign that you are willing to do some more conformist things and that you could pay attention to details the details are boring and also that you are putting some you're making some kind of financial investment in in that particular appearance. So yeah I would I would guess that there is there will be a tilt away from the hyper informal founders but I also think that if you treat that hyper informality as either this attempt to gain the system and just say like I'm going to be as much I'm going to try to remind people of Mark Zuckerberg circa 2005 as much as possible so I can raise money and pretend to be the next big thing that is that's one thing people are signaling and then the other thing is they're just accidentally signaling total indifference to anything except the thing they're working on and maybe that's a good thing but maybe maybe it's a good thing in unregulated domains and then a really really bad thing in regulated domains like if you're investing in a medical devices company you you probably don't want a founder who just cannot focus on anything except the product because there are rules they have to follow and you know norms and things and yeah it gets bad if all they're focused on is this one element you know if the hyper focus is like just right perfectly calibrated that's good but then maybe maybe adjusting your appearances this way to say that you have correctly calibrated your hyper focus and you're going to get one thing right and it's going to be really really right like you're going to get things right they're going to be really really right and you've identified what things matter what things don't.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:02Yeah you'll lose track of your bank accounts. That's the dress itself but I also want to ask about the other characteristics you had this really interesting point in that blog post about how you know when you try to scout for talent when the talent is young you're over indexing for parental involvement and I'm curious if you had to identify somebody who had to be under the age of 18 or under the age of 20 what is the metric you're looking at that least indexes for parental involvement where they're being forced or encouraged by their parents to do it?Byrne Hobart 0:21:35I think the closest you could get is something that is either totally illegible to the parent's status like understanding of status or something that is actively low status and it's hard to hard to enumerate those and not just get swamped in well should this thing be low status the high status is actually terrible to say that you ever want to hire someone who was really good at x for some value of x but I do think that you so basically the origin of that point was that I was arguing that when you if you look at people who are at some percentile and they're in their 20s or 30s like a lot of like at a high percentile like a lot of it has to be that they have some combination of talent and have tried really hard there's probably been some element of luck but over time the luck starts to starts to wash out hopefully but the younger you go and this is probably just my experience of having kids like if you talk to your kids every day about multiplication they will start doing multiplication at a pretty early age and it's not that they are you know really really smart and they got to multiplication a couple years early it's that you push them in that direction and they were able to do it early so like the earlier you go the more you are over indexing on what the parents did what they emphasized and also what they told the kids was just part of the script and there are anecdotes about this from none of the specifics coming to mind but I remember anecdotes about people who grew up in lower middle class or below circumstances but would have one distant relative who owned a business and that made them aware that they could own a business and this is like a thing they could do it's part of the script now and that wasn't the only reason that they would have started business but it could be a reason that they decided to do that when they did and you have to imagine that for everyone who had one uncle who owned a scrap dealer or something that maybe there are five or ten or fifty people who grew up in similar circumstances had a similar level of innate ability and just didn't have anyone in their social circle who demonstrated to them that this was something you could actually do so I think like getting getting back to the talent identification problem but part of my thesis there was that it's it's really hard and it's getting harder that you had Y Combinator going after the relatively young talent versus what the medium BC was going after when YC started and then stuff like Pioneer and Emergent Ventures is going even younger and the younger you get the more it is this luck driven thing that is about what they got exposed to with the exception of prodigies so I'd like to think that if I encountered an eight-year-old Mozart I would be able to identify this person as just an extraordinary talent where like even if their parents were making them practice ten hours a day they couldn't be that good without talent and maybe something similar with the Polar Sisters where okay if I you know encounter a six-year-old who can routinely beat me at chess and so I go Google some you know read some chess books and then go back and try to beat them again and they're actually better and they're laughing at me and things like at some point you decide that this is actually natural talent but there's for a lot of other domains there's just so much room for parents to push one thing and do some combination of their kids talent and their own emphasis to get their kids really good at it and that's very hard to adjust for especially because if you ask the parents they're going to underestimate how much they overemphasize things because to them this is just a normal thing that everyone should be interested in and so you won't you won't get a good signal from asking parents and then you won't get a good signal from asking other people because they don't know how this family spends time at home and you know if if the medium family has more more YouTube and Netflix time and less you know less math practice time that family's just going to assume it's pretty pretty much their behavior is normal.Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:25It's a bit confusing because you also want to potentially include parental involvement in your estimate of how good this person will end up being if you think for example that giving somebody a shot to get started programming early is actually a big factor in putting them on that sort of like loop where they get better by practicing and they enjoy it more so on you might expect momentum more than mean reversion in that kind of like early start.Byrne Hobart 0:25:54Sure so I think part of part of what this gets to is the question of what are you optimizing for when you're doing a talent search and I think this is maybe one reason there could be some alpha left in talent search among people who are super young is that a lot of the academic institutions that are doing some form of talent search what they're pretty much optimizing for is how does this person do over the next year so you know if someone is a math prodigy and they get to join the math team at that school the school is not trying to optimize for will this person be proving novel theorems when they're 25 it's really will this seven-year-old be doing you know algebra by the time they're eight and that's that is still very tied to parental involvement especially once you know parents like kids they like structure and if you tell them this is the appropriate next thing to do with your kid then they're more likely to do it so you can post on that momentum for a while but what I think you the trap you can run into is that you identify people who are like 95th percentile talent with 99th percentile just super aggressive parents and that combination gets them to 99th percentile performance until they leave home and then they never do whatever that thing is ever again because they didn't really like it it was just something their parents pressured them into now maybe the ideal would be you get 99 percentile on both so the parents are putting them on this trajectory but the parents are actually aiming you know a very powerful rocket ship and it's going to go right in the right direction which is ideal and I think there's a there's a reasonable possibility that like I think there are there's like some level of just imprinting that young kids have where a lot of kids learn about programming when they're very young and that's something that they do from a very very early age and then it becomes the thing that they work on for their entire career obviously that has to be fairly new because it's not like they're you know from like anyone who was born before 1970 just had this constant yearning to program computers and could never satisfy it like those kids found something else to do maybe a generation before it was repairing transistor radios like mine did when he was a kid and maybe a century before that it was experimenting by building little internal combustion engines and seeing whether or not they explode like Henry Ford did with his friends at school and maybe before that like the earlier you got the harder it gets to really map these activities to anything concrete that we understand and can relate to but there's there's probably some extent to which you can you can sort of direct kids into whatever the modern instantiation of this long-term enduring tendency is and I guess one so one interesting example of that I've been reading the Robert Caro LBJ biography and there's this bit towards the end of the first volume where LBJ is put in charge of this fundraising organization for Democrats in Congress and when you read about it he sounds like a traitor he sounds like someone who was just born to be slinging currency derivatives or something because he is constantly on the phone constantly picking up rumors constantly sending money here and there and everywhere else and he's like always sending money overnight and then sending someone a telegram the day before saying you're going to get a package from Lyndon Baines Johnson and you're welcome so he's like he's doing this thing where he's constantly relentlessly optimizing every little tiny detail of some very complicated process clearly requires enormous working memory requires a very strong basically a very strong poker face like he has to be able to differentiate between someone who is begging for money because they are at they're pulling at 49% and with a little bit more money for newspaper ads they get to 50.1% versus someone who just wants the money or just is constantly freaking out by their nature so it requires a lot of the same character traits but 1930s were just not a great time to go to Wall Street maybe if LBJ had been born at a slightly different time that's that's just what he would have done and it would have been a very successful private equity executive or something but sometimes those these general skills they can translate into a lot of different areas and they get honed into very specific skills through through deliberate practice in those areas so if you have that combination of natural tendency and some level of motivation which in LBJ's case his dad was also a politician so he had this example of this is part of the life script you can't do it but he also had the example of his dad was broke after a while and so he he had this example of what not to do and ended up making good money for himself in addition to his political career yeah yeahDwarkesh Patel 0:30:35I'm glad you brought up the biography I'm reading it right now as well and the other biography by Robert Caro the power broker just for the audience the last episode or the second to last episode in the feed is we go deep into deep into that biography and talk about why it might be inaccurate in certain respects but what is what it is accurate and I think what Caro has a genius in is talking about the personalities of these great great men about the people who have really shaped their cities or their countries for decades and centuries there's many places where I mean I'm sure this is true for you if you understand like the economics of an issue he's talking about there's a lot to be left to care his explanation but the actual like the sort of breakdown of the personalities is just so fascinating and worth a reading care for but you know come to think of it so maybe the difference between the cases where you want to price in the parents involvement and the ones where you don't is where in situations like maybe being a politician where it really is about building a network building know-how building this sort of inarticulable knowledge from an early age it might be the case that in those situations just having connections and having parental involvement gets you far but if it's like becoming a programmer sure you'll like have done data structures by the time you're 16 but eventually you'll get to the point where you know everybody knows the basics and now you actually how to do interesting and cool things in computer science and now you're like a 95th percentile of spatial reasoning IQ is not going to get you that far but let me ask you about the care of biography because you had a really interesting comment that I've been warning you about as well in your in your review of the book or in your comment about the book you said it's worth speculating on how many lbg level figures exist today perhaps in domains outside of politics and how many caro level biographers there are who could do them justice so do you have some idea of who these figures are or if not that at least what areas you'd expect them to beByrne Hobart 0:32:34in I think a lot of people who are close to that tier and have some of the same personality types are in sales and corporate development and stuff like that where they you know they're they're building a big network they are constantly building out this giant levered balance sheet of favors you know favors out to them favors they owe to other people and like all forms of leverage it does allow you to grow a lot faster but you occasionally want these big big blowups so that's that's one place I would look I think if you try to look at the more you know pure executive founder types then it gets harder to find someone who would have exactly that kind of personality it's like part of what made lbj's methods work was that he was adjacent to a bunch of these really big institutions and he could sort of siphon off some of the power that these institutions had and in some cases could make them more powerful so I'm about a third of the way through master of the senate right now so it's it's just getting to the point where he's really getting cooking and really making the senate more more effective than it used to be and also making it an organization where someone where it's less seniority based so you kind of you need to be attached to something much bigger than yourself for that particular skill set to work really well that said you could have a really big impact because it is it's another form of leverage so if you are one of a hundred senators or I guess at the point at that point it was 96 senators and you're you're able to exert a lot more influence and be you know be the equivalent to 40 senators for example then you can get a whole lot done because it's it's the us senate but if you have that same kind of skill set and you're the ceo of your company well you're you're already in front of the company like there's only so much extra force you can exert so you you kind of see a figure with exactly that kind of personality trait in a case where there are big institutions that have slowed down somewhat and this is another interesting point that is raised early master at the senate is that the senate was getting old and if you look at these long-term charts of average age of politicians we're we're definitely in a bull market for extremely extremely old politicians in the u.s right now but we've gone through cycles before and one of the things that that tends to cause a reset is the war where wars among other things cause this huge reset in social capital so the people who made mistakes in the early stages all get discredited and then the the social bonds that people forge from actually fighting alongside one another and the the prestige you get from actually being part of the winning side that is very hard to replicate and so you end up with much younger people in much you know in positions of a lot more power whereas the the way that that worked a decade and a half earlier was the 1930s there just weren't a lot of organizations that were hiring heavily and looking for really ambitious young people who are going to shake things up but the u.s government was so that's that's how lbj got in and started on his path was that the new deal created these big programs like the national youth administration and they needed people like johnson to to run them so when you look at um you look at an industry that is aging it's usually an industry where um ambitious people stay away from it like they recognize it's becoming more seniority focused and there's just less going on but there becomes this huge opportunity when the aging stops because a bunch of people either retire or they get discredited and have to leave and suddenly the average age of the industry ratchets down and you can basically look at the set of opportunities that were missed over the previous decade for example because um because the industry was like the whatever this institution was was too risk averse you you get to take all of those opportunities at once so you have tons and tons of low-hanging fruit when that shift happens so i think that's that's the other thing to look for is look for cases where there's some some institution some part of the economy or society that has just been slowing down for a long time clearly getting to the limit of whatever its current operating model is hasn't found a new model and there's someone young and disruptive who's just entering it so i mean maybe maybe the place to look for the next lbj is um someone doing independent films and someone who looks at the top box office results and sees that everything is a spin-off of a spin-off of a spin-off and it's you know 50 percent marvel and says this is disgusting we have to destroy it and i'm going to build something completely different like maybe that person is actually the kind of lbj archetype now the other half of this question is the caro archetype and part of what i found fun about this was that um i felt like caro had this kind of um like he was kind of disgusted with himself when he realized how similar his some of his methods were to lbj's because he's writing this story about this guy who's will do anything to make a sort of friendship but it's really a fake friendship just to accomplish his goals and he's constantly doing doing the reading that other people aren't doing and doing the work and making the calls and reiterating and reiterating iterating just endless patience and then you read about how caro works and he does things like moves to dc for a while talks to everyone in dc befriends people goes to um texas talks you know moves to the hill country and gets to know people there he has these anecdotes in the book because the book is like um it's sort of has these hints of gonzo journalism where sometimes caro will just narrate it's that he'll he will go from here's what happened in 1946 to here's what happened to me in the 70s while i was talking to this guy about what he did in 1946 and sometimes he he will basically come out and say i waited until the person who paid this bribe had alzheimer's and then i asked him if he remembered paying the bribe and he remembered that he did it and didn't remember he wasn't supposed to say it so that's how i know and um there's this line that caro keeps quoting from lbj which i think was from lbj's speech coach days or speech like debate team coach days where his line was if you do everything you will win and caro does everything um so i think probably the population of caros is smaller than the population of lbj's because the people who have that skill set probably have ambitions other than writing a canonical book about one particular person or you know writing two canonical books two canonical works on um two important people but maybe a lot of those people are just doing thingsDwarkesh Patel 0:39:03other than typing man there's so many threads there that i i'm like tempted to just spend the rest of the episode just digesting um and talking about that but one thing that i like there's so many interesting things about caro's story uh and i guess the impact is that one of them is there's been this focus in terms of thinking about impact especially in like circles like effective altruism of trying to crunch the numbers and there's no reasonable crunching into the numbers you could have come up with before the power broker is written where you say i'm going to spend by the way this is he tries to downplay his accomplishments as a journalist before he wrote the power broker but he was nominated for the pulitzer prize for his journalism before the power broker so he's like a top level uh investigative journalist and then you say here's i'm going to spend my talents i'm going to spend eight years looking into and researching every conceivable person who has even potentially been in the same room as or been impacted by robert moses and i'm going to document all this i'm going to write a book where that's like million words or something and but in fact that's he probably didn't think about it this way right but what was the result he probably that book probably changed how many of the most influential people who came up through politics uh think about politics think it probably changed how urban governance is done how we think about accountability and transparency for good or ill right depending on your perspective um and just that example alone really makes me suspect the sort of number crunching way of thinking about what to do and rather just like i don't know i gotta understand how the you know from procurus perspective i gotta understand how this guy accumulated this power he doesn't and it like completely transforms uh you know how urbanByrne Hobart 0:40:41governance has been yeah you know it actually uh kind of looping back to the the parental influence thing i think part of what happened was that the more caro dug into it the more he realized this is actually a big and compelling project and there's there's this kind of fun phenomenon that you can get when you're researching something where you you you've read enough that when you read something new and you see that there's a footnote you actually know what is going to be cited in that footnote and maybe you've also read the thing about how the thing in that footnote is wrong and here's why and um you know you're picking up information a lot faster you get that that nice convexity where you can skim through the stuff you know and everything you read is new information and challenges something about what you what you previously knew and that's just a really intoxicating feeling and i can imagine that it's even more fun if you're actually digging up the primary sources so you know if you're caro you've gone through the new york times archives you've read through all of the all the external coverage of what people said about most time and then you start talking to people and you realize here are things that were we got completely wrong like we thought moses didn't want x to happen and it turns out that he kept scheming and plotting to make x happen and just wanted to pretend that it wasn't his doing um you so i think that but what happens is you you build this ongoing motivation and then you can you can make something that you just wouldn't be able to make before and i think if um if you start out saying i'm going to write a million words about how cities are run um you will probably fail but if you keep writing another 500 words a day about how robert moses operated and what he did and then you have some reflections throughout that on what that means for cities then then maybe maybe you actually get there and yeah so um and and maybe some of this is like you you want to have an adversary like a lot of these like the carol books do seem partly to be this cross-examination of of who he's writing about and often he he seems to have very mixed feelings like he you know with um i think one of the one of the really interesting things in um in the years of lyndon johnson is the carol's description of um coke stevenson and how they contrast him with lbj because it's really clear that uh carol's politics are completely opposed to stevenson's and that when carol's writing about lbj there's like the good stuff he did which is the great society and his his participation in the new zealand and there's a bad stuff which is anything that wasn't bad and um so he clearly like he likes what lbj accomplished and despises the person and then really likes the person of coke stevenson and kind of wishes him well but also doesn't actually want people like that to be in charge of anything and so it's like a you know it's partly partly carol debating with his subject and interrogating his subject and partly debating with himself and asking these very long-standing questions about whether or not justify the ends and you know would it be worth it to not have a great society in exchange for not letting lbj steal an election in 1948 and i don't think that like if he's good at his writing he shouldn't be coming to firm conclusions on that and he should be presenting this very very mixed picture where you really only get the things you really want if you also accept that there are some very bad things that come along with that as long as as long as the things you want come from powerful ambitious people who will do anything to win hey guysDwarkesh Patel 0:44:14i hope you're enjoying the conversation so far if you are i would really really appreciate it if you could share the episode with other people who you think might like it this is still a pretty small podcast so it's basically impossible for me to exaggerate how much it helps out when one of you shares the podcast you know put the episode and the group chat you have with your friends post it on twitter send it to somebody who you think might like it all of those things helps out a ton anyways back to the conversation yep yep no and it's worth remembering that it takes him a decade to write each of those volumes and each of that i guess in the case of the power broker or that entire book but in the course of a decade just imagine how many times you would change your mind on a given subject and you really notice this when you read different paragraphs of like for example the power broker where you notice um early on if you just read the first third or the first half the power broker you're like clearly caro is like writing about uh uh robert moses the way he writes about robert linden johnson where it's like yeah this guy had some flaws but like look at the cool s**t he did and the awesome stuff he did for new york um and then the tone completely changes but you gotta remember it's he's just writing this so many years and uh in between i do want to uh talk about the thing about you know young people being able to you know young people i guess a war being a catalyst for young people entering an arena i did an interview of um alexander mikorovitsky i forgot his last name but anyways he wrote a really interesting book about the polyonic wars and this is actually one of the things we talked about um there's a line from war and peace where one of the russian aristocrats is mad that his son is joining uh is joining the war and he goes you know it's is that man napoleon you you've all seen him and now you all want to like go off to war and i'm curious um like filmmaking doesn't seem like we're super quantitative and super smart and super competent like somebody who has thymus and the desire to dominate and the desire to achieve recognition uh i mean do you really think he's making films like where where is he really i mean is he like still trying to start a startup or is that like now a decade too old and now he's trying to dominate some other arena i mean maybe the lame answer is we don'tByrne Hobart 0:46:31actually know because um the way like you know paul graham has that essay about the trope of startups starting in garages and i think it's called the power of the marginal and it's all about how the the really interesting projects are the ones that can barely get off the ground because they're so weird and so out there that there is no infrastructure to support them and what that ends up doing is selecting for people who are extremely passionate about that project and also people who are extremely willful and will get impossible things done so you it's hard to just rattle off a bunch of examples of that because you your hit rate would be like 99 things out of 100 are just like things you read one fun blog post speculating about and they're actually never going to happen and then you know one of them maybe maybe you're right but it's very hard to tell which one it is and you know if it were very easy venture capital would not have such such skewed returns so yeah so maybe maybe it is like harder to harder to optimize for what area do you look for maybe it's actually easier to do the meta optimization of identifying the things you would quit you know quit podcasting and go work on given the opportunity and you know it's like good to have that sort of dread list like I I had that mental list of like you know if someone at Spotify ping me and they're like we really need a product manager who can help us display classical music such that we don't list like tons of redundant information and the first 50 characters of the track name and the actual incremental useful information in the 10 characters you have to wait for it to scroll through unless it doesn't actually scroll through like if someone pinged me it was like we really need someone to fix that can you come and do this I'd be sorely tempted feel the same way about Google Finance like if if if someone emails me and says you have a mandate to make Google Finance good I'd be tempted but I think thinking of like what industries would have that kind of pull for you and then what can you do to really dig into those industries you probably find the the the proto successful people in spaces like that versus trying to optimize in advance for well if I were you know if I were someone who thinks like nobody else thinks and we're a true natural contrarian and also had spent several years learning about different opportunities which one would I have ended up picking because then you're sort of magicking away all of the things that actually make the person you're looking for it's looking for so yeah can't quite be done that way yeah yeah yeah I want to go backDwarkesh Patel 0:49:05to that thing you said a moment ago about how you couldn't have written a million words that were as impactful about just you know how cities work but if you just wrote 500 words at a time about how Robert Moses accumulated power did the things he did you can actually have a really interesting and influential piece of work is that how you see the diff that you can't write one million words at a time about where where technology is going what's happening with the productivity slowdown what's happening with all these emerging industries but if you just write 2,000 words a day about what's happening with any particular you know company or industry then you can compile this really interesting overall worldview aboutByrne Hobart 0:49:44finance and tech that's the hope and I might be projecting things about my own attention span on to on to Cairo when I say that you can't just set out to do a million words on topic X and then do it but I do think you know I hope that I am by increments producing something that is a lot more than the sum of a bunch of business profiles and a bunch of you know strategy breakdown things like that like and that's that's one of the reasons that I spent time on things like reading Machiavelli and thinking about how Machiavelli's thoughts not just not just the the totally cynical amoral stuff but the other stuff you wrote at the same time which he may have met more seriously about how to build a sustainable and good republic rather than how to be a completely amoral monarch I try to read that kind of thing because I do think that it's valuable to have that more rounded view of the human condition and and I think that it contributes a lot to to writing about these individual companies like you know technology changes a lot humans change very slowly so if you if you want to understand technology you do have to study that this specific object level case of what is this thing what does it do differently what is it a substitute for what are the compliments to it etc but if you're trying to understand things like why did this company do X like why why did they fire fire this person and not that person and why did they choose to acquire this other business why is the CEO dumping tons of money into this thing that seems like it's it doesn't make much sense well you can find lots of historical examples of people in power making these decisions that just get continuously worse and continuously more costly and they refuse to back down sometimes they turn to be right sometimes they turn to be very very wrong but you'll find more examples of that if you go back further in history and they're often just a lot more fun to read about whereas like you know if you you can read about things like board spending too much money on the pencil and it not working out or IBM investing a ton in the 360 and that working out very nicely but you know you can also go back to the Iliad and read another case where sunk cost fallacy dominated rational strictly rational decision making and you know only divine intervention could ultimately lead to a good outcome for for the attacker and even then maybe not suchDwarkesh Patel 0:52:04great outcome often considered the that particular question about where trying to predict if somebody is overstepping or if they're making the best bet of their life is something that I've been trying to think about and I really have no reasonable method for I mean if you think about like what Elon Musk is doing with Twitter is this like Napoleon trying to conquer Russia and it's this super ego filled and pride filled you know completely illogical bet from somebody who has just had like 20 consecutive wins in a row and he thinks he's invincible or is it like Elon Musk like 20 years ago where he's like yeah I did PayPal and now let's you know let's build some rockets and let's build some electric vehicles yeah exactly and in each of these cases there's there's like so many analogies to like complete bust and there's so many analogies to oh this is just like part one of this grand plan and how do you figure out what which one is happening like how do you distinguish the visionary from the collapsing you know star the cynical answer is you wait about 200 years and thenByrne Hobart 0:53:18you write about how it was obvious all along like yeah you you really don't and I mean even there are a lot of cases that are actually still ambiguous so like Alexander you know conquered most of the known world at least most of the world that that people knew of around where he grew up and and then just goes to Babylon and drinks himself to death and that's the end right you know there there could have been an alternate story where he gets his life together a little bit and runs a giant sprawling empire on the other hand like reading the story battle to battle a lot of it it actually is basically this Ponzi scheme where every time he conquers a city he gets enough enough to pay off the people he hired to help him conquer the city and then has to move to the next city because they want to get paid again and so he's sort of you know was sort of being chased by his his obligations the entire way through until he finally got got just ahead of them enough to get a lot of loot and and a lot of land that could give people instead of just giving money so giving them like bars of silver and things so so yeah even even that story it's very hard to say you know he he rolled the dice a bunch of times and he won every time so clearly he was just one of those people who's born to win maybe it was sort of like he actually backed himself into a bunch of corners over and over and over again and then desperately fought his way out every single time and then was just completely sick of it and burnt out by the time he was in his early 30s in terms of how you would figure it out in advance like I think some of it does come down to getting a sense of whether they're responding to circumstances or whether they actually have have a long-term plan but then lots of like you know there's probably nothing more dangerous than a long-term plan that someone actually has the means to execute you know five-year plan does not have a good connotation Stalin had some of those and didn't turn out well for for a lot of people so even within that there's there's some difficulty in evaluating like I think there's kind of that that meta-cynical layer where if they don't know what they're doing then probably it's dumb luck they keep succeeding on the other hand if they do know what they're doing then maybe you hope that the world is lucky enough that they get unlucky and can't actually pull off whatever it is that they're they're planning to do maybe I guess another thing would be is there is there like an end state that they can get to because I think you know someone like Alexander he basically just kept going until he couldn't go any farther until his troops were basically on the point of mutiny and then just turned around and went not all the way home but went to like the nicest place halfway home and hung out there and partied but you know if if the story if you look at someone if the story is less about conquest and more about reconquest and restoration of something then there are these natural limits you can say like you go this far and you don't go any farther because you've actually finished your task so something like you know I think like I don't actually know who was who what which generals were on the other side of Napoleon but the ones who chased him out of Russia like for them the master plan was not we're going to conquer all of Europe the master plan was like we're getting our country back and then we're going to chase him far enough that he doesn't feel like he can just wait a year and do this again when it's not winter so so maybe that's that's another way to constrain it but then then you end up naturally selecting for less ambitious people it's like one way to one way to have these guardrails on your behavior is just don't have very big ambitions so you might and in that case those people are also stuck responding to circumstances so so maybe maybe you just end up with many different iterations of the same thing on different scales where everyone is stuck in certain historical circumstances they have they have their skills they have their opportunities they can they can go after some things maybe they achieve great things maybe they fail but either way eventually their luck runs out or they run out of ideas and then there's nothing to do except go home or just keep trying to keep keep being bolder until you eventually fail on most particularly I I don't really I don't really understand it I think there's like a remote possibility that he actually has a bunch of specific concrete ideas for how to increase Twitter's free cash flow and how to pay down the debt and make it a more profitable company maybe he just had that sense that it was overstaffed and that it should survive with a smaller headcount and if you cut headcount enough then you you end up with with a profitable business it could also just have been fun and seems fun so far and I think like that you know the the pursuit of fun is is not to be discounted like you if you're super rich you can afford to do all sorts of things varying levels of entertainment but it may be that the only thing that is actually like truly novel thrill seeking fun opportunity is something like buy Twitter and then turn it into you know what it is and it is like there's I think Rostad that at this this point about how the nature of Twitter's legitimacy has changed and that now it is a it is under the rule of a single monarch instead of ruled by these sort of faceless bureaucracies so now you know if something if Twitter does something you don't like there's actually a specific person you can blame and because you have Twitter you can actually yell at that person and potentially get an answer whereas if Twitter bans you because you made a joke and the joke looked like it was serious there's really there's no recourse and you know there's there's nothing lower status than someone like arguing with someone in authority about how serious or they should take your jokes there's like you know it's like a weird component of and it works both ways so like there's I think I started noticing this years ago because there are these underscore TXT Twitter accounts where they're just posting out of context comments from some niche community and the comments always sound deranged in a lot of cases to me the comments read as someone who is doing a bit they're playing a role they know it's funny they're exaggerating for their friends and then you take it out of context and read it as totally seriously and then you get to say these people are all like this they're all crazy but it is like it is a marker of high status to be able to not get jokes and to you know be able to be like righteously angry at someone because they made a joke and if they've been serious that would have been an appalling thing to say but they obviously weren't if you if you can get away with saying no I actually don't think it was a joke at all these people are humorless and they must have been totally serious then that's that's actually you know that's cool that's high status makes you impressive but yeah must like must must rule as this more you know personal monarch I think it's a it speaks to this question of legitimacy like why do people trust moderation and why do they trust sites to operate in the way that they do and you can either say these are like really high quality institutions so you know you can take the discourse as the oblivion approach and say we built these systems such that anyone can be dropped in and can do a reasonably good job

WHAT DO SELLERS HAVE TO FOCUS ON TODAY?If you are still selling by spitting made-up facts to your prospects, you are living under a rock. Aaron is back to discuss what sellers should focus on nowadays, which is helping prospects find the right solutions and making the right buying decisions because they have access to information, and your facts don't matter anymore. Tune in and discover what really matters in selling today with the latest episode of Sales Transformation. Want to book more meetings and close more deals? Start selling the way your buyers want to buy with Humantic AI! Stop sending boring sales e-mails and start sending personalized GIFs and Memes with VIDU.io!TRANSFORMING MOMENTSProspects today have so much informationSellers are dealing with the flipsideEveryone can google and check the facts you presentHelp people find solutions and make the best decisions, not talk about facts“I think there was this stereotype of salespeople back from the movies in the 70s, 80s, and the 90s, about hardcore selling. You get the car salesman stereotype all the time. You can't do that anymore. You can't just make up facts. You can't just sell someone on things. Because if I'm a buyer, you leave the room, I Google everything you just said to fact-check it.” - AARON: You can't just make up facts anymore these days Connect with AaronAaron Bock | Opkalla | Opkalla.comConnect with CollinLinkedIn | YouTube | Newsletter | Twitter | IG | TikTok

Gökçen Şahin, M.Sc., who successfully completed her master's degree in Genetics, has just registered for the PhD program to start her education this fall. Technological advances in the field of genetics in the last 20 years have brought with it a large pile of data waiting to be made sense of. Gökçen will do her PhD in bioinformatics in order to learn how to draw meaningful conclusions from these data and to find solutions for this purpose. Gökçen, who loves to learn new things and is curious, developed a machine learning model in her thesis that can predict the muscle heteroplasmy ratio of patients with given demographic features, family history, and clinical table caused by a mitochondrial DNA point mutation causing mitochondrial diseases. She made these by learning everything herself. She reviewed more than 450 publications fastidiously and worked with doctors to generate her data. Gokcen, who wants to improve herself in this field, wants to have a solid foundation. Therefore, she decided to take her education in this field. Gökçen actually qualified to enter another PhD program last year for the same purpose and started her education. During this period, she was diagnosed with ADHD in December and in January, she learned that she is autistic. While the diagnoses were a great shock at first, she shared her diagnoses with her supervisor in order to pass this period in a healthy way. Afterwards, she was exposed to various mobbing by this supervisor. The severity of mobbing had increased over time. And in February, she was fired by him from the PhD program in an e-mail. Not long after, her ex-boyfriend's family, who learned that she is autistic and ADHDer, did not want them to get married, and they broke up after a 2-year relationship, which was a first for Gökçen. She had many reasons to lose hope. But the opposite happened. The diagnoses resulted in her accepting herself. She faced many challenges throughout her life and she saw that the challenges she experienced was the result of not being accepted as she was. Realizing this, she wanted to go on further and apply for a new program, but she also had fears. She explained everything to her new supervisor before application. And she was encouraged by new supervisor to apply for the program. Now she's telling people that “Being autistic and ADHD is part of the diversity in nature and being able to live as ourselves, to be free of masks is what we have a right to do. The only thing that can hinder this view is when we begin to look at ourselves as people who do not accept us as we are. When we come back from this mistake, we start living a healthy life. Because not being able to be what we are, not being accepted is ignoring us and it hurts. Nobody has the right to this. We are a part of nature, just like everything else." This is a great one- enjoy!   In this episode Peter and Gökçen discuss:   00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 00:50 - Apologies for the near horrid audio- Peter is still in a hotel. 00:56 - Intro and welcome Gökçen Şahin! 02:45 - Your story is incredible; and it's frustrating professors would still be so ignorant! 03:21 - So you said that you wrote something out that you wanted to share with us, feel free!  03:35 - On being accepted for PhD programs 04:03 - On the first meeting with her supervisor/professor 04:51 - On the 2nd meeting with her supervisor 05:50 - What happened next? 08:16 - A little while later… 08:45 - Studying about ADHD 10:00 - On being diagnosed by a child psychologist and then given meds 10:19 - Her professor's reaction 11:05 - Back to the psychologist 11:51 - On being made a study and the discovery of Autism 13:00 - Amazing. A couple of questions… 13:15 - The fallout and heartbreak 14:00 - Did you go back to your former professor? 15:05 - What types of things that you used to think were negatives, do you now understand to be positives? 15:56 - Fun fact: Your subconscious mind controls about 80percent of what you think; be mindful in your self-talk/inner dialogue.  16:24 - On being happy inside and being kind to yourself! 17:44 - What advice would you give to someone who has been told that they are broken? 17:55 - THIS PART.  RIGHT HERE. 19:56 - What happened with her new supervisor? 21:30 - How can people find more about you? @GKCNSHN on Twitter 21:30 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  21:40 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits  — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat:  [00:00:40] Hey guys, Peter, Shankman welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal. Unfortunately, again, I'm still recording from a hotel. Uh, we should be back in my apartment within a week or so, but oh my God, has it been not fun? Anyway, I do wanna talk about something fun today. I have an amazing story here I was on Twitter and someone tagged me in a post and said, you've gotta read what's going on here. And I was introduced to a one whose name. Uh I'm I'm despite my best efforts, I'm probably gonna screw up and I wanna say it's Gokcen shine and I'm pretty, I'm sure I'm relatively close there, but lemme tell you something about Gokcen was in a. PhD program. And, uh, she was doing her PhD in bioinformatics in order to learn how to draw meaningful conclusions from data and find solutions. She was, she loved new things; she's very curious. She discovered a machine learning model and her thesis that could predict the muscle hetero PLAs ratio of patients with given demographic features basically stuff way beyond my pay grade. Right. She's dealing with Mitocondrial DNA, uh, point mutation. I mean, incredible stuff. So what happens. She gets into another PhD program and gets diagnosed with ADHD in January. She learns that she has ADHD and learns that she's autistic. And while this diagnosis works a great shock to her, she shared a diagnosis with a supervisor, and guess what happened with her supervisor? Her supervisor fired her from her PhD program via email! Okay. That's like breaking up with someone over a text message, not cool! Okay. And then after that, her ex-boyfriend's family or her boyfriend at the time who learned that she was a autistic and ADHD, did not want them to get married and they broke up a over a 2 year relationship. Unbelievable. But despite having many reasons to lose hope the opposite happened and the diagnosis resulted in G accepting herself and saw these challenges for what they were through her life, realizing that she applied for a new program. Got in. And now she tells everyone that being autistic and ADHD is part of the diversity in nature. And being able to live as ourselves to be free of masks is what we have a right to do. I am so excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here today Gokcen.  [00:02:41] Gokcen: Uh, thank you so much for inviting me, Peter,  [00:02:44] Peter: uh, an amazing, an amazing story. I, I, I, I, I remember reading it on Twitter and just being blown away that, that, that, you know, of, of all things, professors could still be that, uh, closed mind truly, truly just incredible. [00:02:58] Gokcen: Actually leaving it was very hard, but eventually I just, uh, get something at you get new thing at you then .Right now I'm totally okay.  [00:03:10] Peter: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like you took this, you know, as, as, as difficult as it was, you saw this as an opportunity and, and, you know, used it to your, to your advantage. [00:03:20] Gokcen: Sure, sure.  [00:03:21] Peter: So, so you said that you wrote something out that you wanted to share with us, feel free.  [00:03:25] Gokcen: Yes. Okay. Uh, you can just, uh, cut me if I exceed the time.  [00:03:29] Peter: really not a problem. Go ahead. Okay, go ahead. [00:03:32] Gokcen: Uh, just let me mention about myself a bit. I completed my master on genetics in 2021. I am accepted to PhD program and I will, uh, start my education in the field of bioformatics and system biology in this semester. I was actually accepted to PhD program last year, too. Uh, three acceptance. Actually, I got three acceptance last year from three different universities. In the one that I choose I was fired after six months by my supervisor. Uh, I met with him on 6th of July, 2021. In the meeting I mentioned about my background, about my thesis, about my current knowledge in this field and I, um, What I want to do, et cetera. And he spoke very positively about my answers. Uh, and he said, a few people at your level can answer these questions so well, you know why you did what you did. Um, so I said to him that I didn't get any education on this topic. I. In my thesis, uh, I just did something learning on internet, et cetera, but I didn't get any, um, base education on this topic so I need someone to guide me. I'm looking for, um, my master and he said, okay.  In the second meeting, uh, he wanted me to prepare a project, uh, based on my performance. I will get a chance to apply. I finished my project and email, but he was kind of person that don't answer emails. Meanwhile, I was accepted by two other universities. I dunno why, but I see him as someone that I can trust, but I was totally wrong. Anyway, uh, I sent so many emails to myself, to him. Eventually he wrote something like this. Uh, you are a person who tries to do a given test properly. Is determined by technically needs to move forward. However, I think it will not cause any problems with study. So then I, I applied, accepted government accepted me, a university accepted me in the interview. Supervisor accepted me. So, um, let's start . Our courses was removed. Uh, however, I went to Institute for a journal club and was going meet with my friends, uh, my team friends. Uh, we were supposed to meet with each other. I expected that they will introduce themselves. Ask my name, myth[?] With me, ask about my background, et cetera. Just some friendly talking, but it didn't happen. They were really cold people. After journal club I went our teams room supervisor came too. Uh, he started to talk with his students. They got along very well in a kind of manner that I don't have any idea. Supervisor, um, open potato chips package. He offered to everyone in the room. I politely said that I didn't want, um, he asked why; I said that I have a high intolerance to lactose and I cannot eat packaged foods. Then very interestingly, he got very closer to my ear, very closer and started to eat potato chips there. It was not nice at all, but I thought that probably this was how they make jokes. Um, because I can't understand jokes most of the time. And I. even can't understand why they are made. Um, while he was eating chips. I, he wanted me to ask a question to him. I asked, uh, why he put advanced statistics in the first term while introductory statistics in the second term, he started to laugh again and with his students and said, oh, did I really do this? Oh my God. And last lovely. Um, In the period of this course choice he didn't say anything to me. Um, so these two courses actually was his own courses, but he didn't warn me. He accepted my course choices and not surprisingly, I couldn't succeed because I was almost your own statistics. And this course what was advanced, I said to him, I wish you would inform me at the beginning, but I will, uh, I said that I will fail in this course and take first of all the introductory course and take this course again later. He said, OK. Uh, one day he called me to his room, uh, take a white paper in front of him, asked me, do you know this topic. I said, no, he wrote the paper. Do you know, this topic. I said, no; he wrote the paper. Uh, he wrote so many topics that I didn't know about. And he said, okay, go and study them. You should be ready because you are here to do my job. I will do my job. Uh, you will do my job, then I will be able to look something else. Um, I didn't like this attitude at all. I didn't study, I couldn't study what he gave me because this is not the way that I can study. Uh, But eventually he started to get angry with me. Uh, these times I was wondering so much about ADHD, uh, because my psychologist thought that I have. She was, um, nervous because uh, she also got a diagnosis for a while ago and she told me about the common traits that we share. And then I started to study so deeply on ADHD in a kind of manner that hyperfocus . I was collecting my traits to tell all of them to my psychiatrist. Uh, the hospital that I'm going is a medical hospital of Istanbul for, of medicine of Istanbul university. So doctors are working there with rotation, for education. Each doctor see patients for just one month. Uh, when I went to hospital for ADHD evauation , this was maybe the only chance that I have got in my whole life because doctor was a child psychiatrist She evaluated me. It was the 24th of December 2021 I diagnosed with ADHD . Gave me a drug after this session. She said she wanted to see again, very soon. I thought that she will probably ask me whether the drugs work or not.  I told, um, my diagnosis to my supervisor, I was waiting some understanding, but instead he said that, um, a man without hands cannot be a Shoemaker and no matter how much he wants. But if he works hard, he can become a marathon runner. Maybe he [you] should try another sector. I. Trying to explain that ADHD is not a kind of attention deficit, actually. It's a problem of regularizing of pay attention wherever we can focus, whatever we do more than neurotypicals. But he didn't seem to understand at all. And maybe didn't listen at all. Um, it was 12th of January. I went to a hospital again, I told my psychiatrist that, um, about this, uh, supervisor's unpleasant behavior. And she told me to relax because she said no one had right to kick me out of the schools. I informed her about the effect of drug. Then she asked me tons of questions I didn't understand because these questions was not related with medicine or ADHD. After this session she just said that she wanted to invite me to their department community meeting with the justification of I was their patient for long and she wanted, uh, her professor also evaluate me. Then I said, okay, but this wasn't seem normal to me after going home. I checked each, each question and still didn't understand and what is them about? I Google check [unintelligible] five, watch videos, one thing, but I got shocked. Me? Autism? Is that possible? Then the face to face community meeting the professor who is the head of the psychiatric department of the hospital, and almost all psychs of the hospital was there approximately 20, 30 doctors. And this time professor asked me so many questions and all of them evaluated. I shared my bad language too, because I sit to someone, uh, after the meeting, my own psych took me her room and explained that I'm autistic. Uh, it was 26th of January this year. Uh, so, and my age is 29. It's surprising.  [00:12:55] Peter: So, uh, it it's, let me, let me interrupt just, just for a minute, because I, I, I am, I am grateful to you for telling your story. I have, I have a couple of questions that I, I think my audience would wanna know are on the answer to as well. What, what did you, when you were told by your professor that a Shoemaker cannot make shoes, if he doesn't have hands, how did that make you feel?  [00:13:15] Gokcen: Terrible because you feel like you don't have an ability to think, have an ability, don't have an ability to do something. Uh, you don't have a brain. You cannot think, you cannot be a scientist. Uh, these are, these are incredibly bad things. And, uh, you know what happens in after he said all this to me, I started to cry very deeply and he just look at me with a cold face and it was really horrible.  [00:13:54] Peter: When you let's fast forward to when you were accepted into your new program? Um, I'm I was curious, you didn't mention this. Did you at all, at any point, go back to this professor and tell him that you were, that you made into this new program?  [00:14:08] Gokcen: Uh, no, I didn't. I didn't.  [00:14:11] Peter: Do you have any desire to do that?  [00:14:14] Gokcen: Uh, actually, I have a really big desire to tell him, um, in a, in maybe I know government education department or something. I really don't want to see him again anymore. [00:14:30] Peter: Right. I understand that. It just seems to me that, that I think there's, you know, for what he's done and had the way he did it, uh, there should be some consequences for him. Um, you know, that's a, obviously a bigger story, but I do think that that's something you shouldn't, shouldn't just let go.  [00:14:45] Gokcen: Um, and I will tell, um, more about what he did. Actually. There is so much bad things too, and it's coming.  [00:14:55] Peter: Well, let's focus. Let's focus on the positives for a second. So let's fast forward to the point where you were accepted into the new program. Yes. What have you noticed? What have you noticed about yourself since your diagnosis? What types of things that you used to think were negatives are, do you now understand to be positives and things like that? [00:15:14] Gokcen: Uh, could you repeat the question again, please?  [00:15:17] Peter: Um, now that you're diagnosed, you know, for instance, I'll give you an example. My, uh, my ability to, to multitask I realize is a, is a positive, but when I was in school, uh, it was framed as not being able to pay attention. And so I thought it was a negative. Yes. Right. Once I was diagnosed with ADHD, I realized that it could be a positive. So I'm, I'm curious as to what sort of things that, that you might have thought of as bad things, um, have you since maybe sort of rethought of as possibly good things now that you understand sort of where your, how your brain works.  [00:15:53] Gokcen: Um, actually, there are lots of things like that until to the diagnosis I always thought that I am weird because everybody in your environment say that you are weird. And when they say until that age, when everybody say this, eventually you also believe them. Um, but I actually, without thinking them, I was already happy in my inside. I couldn't show it to the people, but I was happy too inside because I was, um, I love, uh, in, in a way that what makes me Gokcen and everything. Every trait of autism or ADHD, give me that they are my traits and this is, these are my parts. And I love myself. Uh, but after diagnosis, I can say it loudly that I love myself.  [00:16:54] Peter: I think that that in itself is an amazing story right there. The fact that you've been able to; understanding sort of how your brain works has allowed you to be kinder to yourself, right?  [00:17:04] Gokcen: Sure. Because I able to make this master thesis, which is very, uh, hard actually in that time, I didn't know any knowledge about machine learning and I apply and even I created my own data set. Uh, examining more than, uh, 450 articles. This was a huge job. And needs a really strong attention. So this is why ADHD is my superpower and autism, my superpower. Um, yes.  [00:17:44] Peter: What would you tell, what would you tell students or people who were in your position who might have been told that they were broken as well? What would you, what advice would you give to them?  [00:17:55] Gokcen: Um, the thing that really saved my life is, um, just accept yourself as you are, because you are incredible, whatever other people say. Um, And be always kind. This is for everyone. Uh, as Robin Williams said, this, the quote that I love so much: Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know, nothing about. Be kind, always. Because until the time of the diagnosis, I had so many tons of psychological problems. I even stay one month in mental health hospital, like a prison. I suicide twice, uh, heavy drugs. Therapies, tons of therapies. None of them worked. Everybody thought that you are not normal. You just want, don't want to be alive. But, um, but this is not true. Because if you can discover yourself, this is a gift, not a curse. Yeah. And after diagnosing all of the psychological problems just gone away. And I just right now use just one drug and this is for, to, to make it gradually decrease. Uh, and very soon that I will give up all the medicines I will take none of them.  [00:19:26] Peter: That is wonderful. What a great, what a great story. I love that, you know, when I saw your original tweet, I was sort of blown away about how anyone could be that sort of close-minded, um, especially in education where you're supposed to have an open mind, you're supposed to, uh, embrace that. But, um, it seems to me Gokcen that you've definitely come out on top of this, that you have, you have come out the winner in this story, and I hope that you keep writing and I hope that you keep tweeting and keep sharing your story with the world because you're an inspiration.  [00:19:54] Gokcen: Thank you so much. Uh, what happened lastly, I wanna share with you. I told my new supervisor about a bit about my situation, and she said; uh, you have had a bad experience, but, uh, don't be discouraged. I'm sure that, uh, you will be much more happier in here. Uh, there are bad peoples in the world, but fortunately they're good ones too. I am grateful to her. Uh, but when I said that I'm grateful she to accepted me, she said that I didn't do anything. You deserve it. We evaluated you as we did to all students. And you deserve it. This is so precious because people pity you uh, about your autism about your ADHD, and this is especially so in my country. But my dear supervisor treated me like she tries to everyone and she didn't show sympathy because I'm autistic. She said I was accepted because I deserved; this is so precious. [00:21:00] Peter: I love that. I love that. What a wonderful story. Gokcen, Thank you so much for taking the time. My pleasure. Give us your, give us your Twitter account so people can follow you.  [00:21:09] Gokcen: Uh, sure. Um, my, my, uh, name with, uh, letters, uh, G K C N S H N. This is my Twitter. Thank you so much.  [00:21:21] Peter: This. Awesome. Thank, thank you so much for taking the time. We're definitely gonna have you back in several months to talk about, to give us an update on what's going on.  [00:21:28] Gokcen: Thank you so much. You can.  [00:21:30] Peter: All right guys, as always, thanks for listening to fast than normal. We will see you next week with a brand new episode. Hopefully I'll be back in my office and not in our hotel room and we will talk to you soon. Stay safe, stay well.    Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

In this podcast episode, I go into the mind of someone looking for bookkeeping services. I Google search bookkeeping services, review what pops up, and check out a well known competitor to small bookkeeping businesses…Bench.What are they doing right on their website and how can we make adjustments to provide our viewers with an even better experience?Resources:ProAdvisor Marketinghttps://proadvisor-marketing.com Facebook Group - The Meeting Roomhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/proadvisorsandaccountants

Want to know how you can deploy a smart warehouse for your business? Today's guest is Dan Gilmore of Softeon, a company that provides a full suite of flexible and robust end-to-end supply chain software solutions to deliver success. He joins Joe Lynch to talk about the idea and technology behind their system. They discuss some of the big trends impacting warehouses, e-commerce, and retail. From labor shortages to automation, Dan enlightens on the benefits of WMS and WES for any business. Tune in to better understand the perks of this new smart technology for optimizing your business! The Smart Warehouse With Dan Gilmore Our topic is the smart warehouse with my friend Dan Gilmore. How's it going, Dan? It's great. I'm happy to be here. I'm glad I'm finally getting to interview you. Please introduce yourself, your company, and where you are calling from. I'm a Chief Marketing Officer of a supply chain software company called Softeon. Our company is headquartered in Reston, Virginia, outside of Dallas Airport. I happen to be in the Dayton/Cincinnati, Ohio area. What does Softeon do? It's a supply chain software company, primarily a supply chain execution. The company was founded in 1999. Our first customer all the way back then was the L'Oreal, and we proceeded to build out a suite of solutions that were brought in deep capability. That includes warehouse management systems, and all the stuff that goes around warehouse management systems including labor and resource management, slotting optimization, and yard management. A newer thing which we will get into because it's critical to what's happening in terms of the smart warehouse is something called warehouse execution systems, which have been around for a while but gained prominence in the last couple of years as a way to optimize and orchestrate order fulfillment level at a capability that's beyond even very good tier ones. This category of stuff is called distributed order management, which has to do with the optimal sourcing of products based on customer commitments as well as network capacities constraints in how do I get the lowest cost alternative that meets the customer needs? It's a very prominent in omnichannel commerce. It is almost essential in retail but we are having a lot of B2B type of successes in distributed order management as well. There are some other things that could give a flavor to what we do. You started well before eCommerce was a thing. Do you still support stores and that kind of warehousing? Traditional WMS type of capabilities for retailers, would largely be store replenishment. Now, we are moving into eCommerce fulfillment. Many retailers are also looking to have a lot of activity at the store level, whether that's buying online, pick up in-store, curbside pickup or store fulfillment. We've got some solutions there, both in terms of the distributed order management that I referenced. It is the tool going that says, “The best place to fulfill this order from based on the time commitments as well as inventory availability, labor availability, etc. is store 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,” and then have the ability to first identify where it's the right location. That could be obviously a DC, a third-party facility or something like that. The first word is the best place to source it from, and if it's a store, we have a store module that facilitates the inventory transactions, picking transactions, and shipping at a store level. That became a thing. Target is one of those companies that if you buy something online from them, they are more likely to ship from their stores these days. I have seen and the figure keeps rising. The whole market has changed. The more high-tech feel and touch, the less back-breaking work and less bending over and lifting heavy cases. It's like 80% or 90%. Let's say 90%. That's the number I had in my mind too. They are doing them from the store, which is incredible. Before we get into all that, tell us a little bit about you. Where did you grow up and go to school? Give us some career highlights and bullet points before you join Softeon. I'm an Ohio guy. My whole life, I grew up in Akron, Cleveland area, and then got a job with NCR after grad school. I got an MBA from the University of Akron. I got a job at NCR that was here in Dayton. I was a Product Manager in charge of barcode and data collection. The way serendipity works, I moved from barcode data collection systems to wireless systems and then got into WMS. I was into consulting for a while. I have done a lot of marketing in the space. I was also Chief Marketing Officer at the Red Prairie before it got acquired by JDA and became ultimately Blue Yonder. Earlier in my life, I spent a couple of years implementing WMS, a couple of major projects down here in the Cincinnati area that helped me learn a lot about how the technology works and what's good and less good. Notably, in 2003, I started a publication called Supply Chain Digest, which changed the face of online supply chain and logistics, news, and coverage. I still keep a light hand on it. I still write a column once a week still for Supply Chain Digest. I have read that. I wrote a lot of blog posts in the past. When you are a writer, I have joked that “My research is a little different than a professor's research, I Google.” You start to realize which publications have good content when you are a blogger. The bar is a little lower for a blogger than it is for somebody who is writing in a publication. I would say, “Supply Chain Digest always had good stuff.” When and why did you join Softeon? It has been a few years now. I had done a little bit of side consulting with Softeon before joining, and I was impressed with the breadth and depth of the software and the number of innovative capabilities, but as important as that is, lots of companies have good software. We think we've got leading-edge software but the approach to customers and success - I have never seen a company that consistently puts its own interests behind its customers on a regular basis. We are not going to let anything get in the way of a successful implementation. That's a direct record that's unequal in the marketplace. It's the care and concern for success at the customer level and not looking at everything through a lens of only professional services hours if I can sell or something like that. It was a different attitude. It intrigued me, and plus, the company needed some help in the marketing area to get that message out. The combination of those factors led me to join Softeon. Our topic is the smart warehouse. Obviously, things have changed quite a bit in this business. Talk about some of the big trends that are out there that are impacting warehousing, eCommerce, and retail. It impacts everybody. Most of the audience is going to say they are living this or these are big surprises but it's nice to still put it all in context, the growing distribution labor shortage and there's a shortage of manufacturing. It's very acute. Everywhere you go, that's what you hear about the turnover levels, retention, and even with the greatest rising substantially. That's everyone's concern. After about a decade of very flat wage growth in warehousing and distribution until a few years ago, now, all of a sudden, the costs are taken off. Amazon has over $20 an hour with attractive signing bonuses in many parts of the country. They now offer parental leave for twenty weeks. I saw it on TV. That would be a very attractive benefit. That's the advantage. Target announced that they were raising their wage in both stores and distribution centers, not all markets but in some markets, by $24 an hour. That's $48,000 a year, and assume there's probably some overtime in there, whatever husband and wife are making up, for example. They are working at a Target DC in those markets, you could be pulling in $100,000 a year for a family, which is not bad money. [caption id="attachment_7940" align="aligncenter" width="600"] The Smart Warehouse: With the e-commerce-driven cycle time pressure, it's unbelievable how fast you can get products these days.[/caption]   This has come up on my show a few times. I'm getting too old for that kind of work, and I can't walk 10 miles a day but if I had a choice, we need to make that job easier. We are going to get to that because this is what technology does. It also makes the job more attractive when they can say, “I go to that job, and I'm learning all this cool technology.” If you can bring somebody in, there's a different feeling when I get to wear all that high-tech gear and use high-tech systems and say, “I'm part of the supply chain,” as opposed to, “I'm a strong back, walk 5 miles a day and nobody gives a crap about me.” There are no questions about that. It's going to be both in terms of the shortage of labor and, second, building to attract people into this career. Now the whole market has changed, that more high-tech feel and touch, less back-breaking work, less bending over and lifting heavy cases, and all the kinds of things to go on and work for a long time. You are spot-on on that dynamic. If we have a shortage, that means the people we do have to be more efficient. The way they can be more efficient is with tech. That's one big trend going on. What's another big trend? There's a bunch in there that interrelated as well. Obviously, the eCommerce-driven cycle time pressure. If you look ay Amazon over your tablet, it's unbelievable how fast you can get products these days, even somewhat obscure products not that long ago, I need a new power cord for my HP computer. Somehow Amazon was able to deliver that the next day. I'm like, “Probably, they have this cable in someplace that they can get it to me one day.” Think of all the thousands of cables that are out there, and they've got mine. The cycle time pressure in that both are in terms of getting the order process from when it drops into the DC and out the door. Obviously, companies are also moving distribution facilities closer to the customer, so the transportation part of the journey is cut down as well. They will remember the specific numbers. It's Home Depot that is building 170 or 180 different local fulfillment centers that are being the largely cross-dock type of facilities that bring bulky items in and get them right to the customer in addition to the big giant warehouses that they already have. It's a fact of life. Eventually, we will teleport or whatever the product from the warehouse because it seems like we are reaching the Laws of Physics there that it can't be here any faster but maybe we will find a way. I remember, many years ago, I was working on a digital marketing project. I was helping this distribution center, nice, concise in Chicago land Peoria. They said we are one-day shipping to 65% of the population of the US. That was always what Indiana, Illinois, and there are so many DCs down in Ohio can always make that claim, and that was good enough. If you said, “I have a DC in the Midwest that can get me to the Eastern Coast, and I have one out West, that was good enough.” We are not seeing that anymore. We are going to get increasingly where same-day delivery becomes a fact of life rather incredible. Amazon and others talk about getting it down to 2 hours or 30 minutes. That's what Target is doing, not with those DCs. We think we will get to Walmart doing some of the same. What's another trend? Obviously, because we are calling the session, we are going to talk about the smart and also the future but it's largely here nowadays. We've got smart everything. We've got smart houses, cars, refrigerators, and toothbrushes even. I saw that a couple of years ago. I'm not sure if it's exactly taken off the map but to monitor how often you brush your teeth. What does it mean? Primarily, it's talked about internet connectivity and some analytics around that. The least examples are John Deere, Caterpillar or companies of that kind, putting sensors and other IoT types of devices on their equipment out in the field so they can get a sense of how people are actually using it. They can do predictive maintenance on it. They could say, “Your guys aren't using the equipment as effectively as they could if they changed their techniques.” It's certainly timely. If we are going to almost start things where it's time for the smart warehouse too but we will get into for the rest of the broadcast era left different than more internet connectivity, sensors, and things like that. That can be part of it but it is a small part of it. The bottom line of it is we are entering a new era of where all soccer technologies that are, in fact, much smarter than we have ever had before. I have argued publicly for a couple of years now that we had about twenty years of relatively incremental progress in WMS technology. I used this in speeches before but a few years ago, I was cleaning up my office and running the holidays as I often do when I found an RFP from a major food company for a WMS circuit in 2003. I looked through that and I thought, “This doesn't look all that different than the RFPs we are seeing in 2019, 2020 or whatever year we are looking at that.” I looked at it and said, “The big difference is not in the functionality being asked for. It's that now, a lot of that functionality is, in fact, core product, configurable product than maybe a lot of it had to be achieved through customizations.” That's probably true. Same-day delivery has just become a fact of life. The fundamental way of where WMS operates didn't change all that much give or take from 2000 to 2020 or somewhere in that range. Now, with the smart technologies that we are talking about, they are brought by the world's execution systems in working with WMS, I talked about before. This is a new ball game, and it was going to be fun for the rest of the people here to talk about this. You throw in a new term there. You said warehouse execution system. Those have been around for a while but they are now becoming the norm. It's becoming very prominent, and then the value is starting to be recognized. What is it? A couple of three companies had the belief and correctly, for most of the WMS systems did not care enough about equipment throughput and utilization. We wound up with big peaks and valleys, and anybody have been in a district distribution center, even a busy one. You have seen it where there are all kinds of activity at the beginning and the middle of the wave, then as the wave starts to dissipate even on a big, expensive, huge sortation system, you've got a relatively small number of boxes moving around, waiting for that wave and everything to close out. You said wave. Does that mean the orders come in waves? Yeah. The work is released in what is called pick waves. That's based on any number of different attributes. It could be the carrier schedule, value-added processing that needs to be done or workload balancing across the different pick areas of the company. You organize the work against various attributes that constitute a block of work that's typically referred to as a wave. I know I've got all these trucks that are going to show up and they are taking different orders, so maybe I'm working to that order that's going to fill up that truck. The problem, to your point, is we've got already may be a shortage of headcount in there. Now when we have waves, I'm not being efficient because I've got too much work at one moment and then not enough at another. The whole goal of WMS of what we're talking about with the smart warehouse is overcoming, I mean, obviously, you've got to plan and execute based on the workforce that you have here, and we will talk about that. Having a warehouse management system that gives me stuff was great in the past but you are saying, “I will help you with a WES or Warehouse Execution System. I'm going to help you manage the flow.” Manage the flow work and the resource utilization, and then new ways. Part of that still ties into that interest in level loading or making the flow of goods across an automation system more smooth and consistent because if you can do that, there are a couple of things. First off, the total throughput of the system is likely to be better. Second, if it's a new facility, you could probably get by with a smaller sorter because you are going to be able to utilize it more consistently over a block of time, a shift or over what you want to look at it there. The other breakthrough that Softeon said is that the WES tends its roots and level loading of the automation and better utilization there. The WES works extremely well, even in non-automated facilities or lightly automated facilities. [caption id="attachment_7941" align="aligncenter" width="600"] The Smart Warehouse: The fundamental way a warehouse operates didn't change all that much from 2000 to 2020. But now, with smart technologies, this is a new ball game.[/caption]   As a matter of fact, one of our leading customers did a press release a couple of years back that talked about 50% productivity gain from implementing WES or Warehouse Execution Systems on top of existing Softeon WMS, and doing that in a totally manual environment. Everything is part of a system. You can have a sortation system, goods to person system or put wall system or whatever. It's got a certain capacity, throughputs, inputs, and outputs. Twenty workers walked around on a three-level case pick module. There are systems too. They have inputs, outputs, throughput, and expectations. The one big difference is that with a more manual system, you can throw more bodies at it up to the point of diminishing returns and gain through the port from that area, whereas a heavily automated system is rate as its rating. You are not going to do a whole lot to affect that. Throughput is everything, whether you are a plant, a freight broker or a warehouse. The stuff that goes out the door and that we can charge for is what we want to do. Having a warehouse management system is great. I know there are certain warehouses. Probably the old ones still don't even have that. You are saying to be as efficient and effective as you need to be in the market, you need a warehouse execution system that gets me the flow and that throughput. It may not be for everybody, and there are certain things you can do. We could take your core WMS and add some select capabilities from a full-blown WES if a modest level of that kind of automation is necessary. It's not necessarily for one, and I don't want to position it that way but it's certainly something that you want to take a look at as you get to where you've got a significant number of workers. Even smaller operations, things like the automated release of work to the floor without the human being need needing to be involved, that's going to be attractive even for a mid-size operation. The first thing we need is we need to get into this. WMS is given. You said that there was an incremental improvement for many years. Now, you are starting to see big improvements that may be driven by the market that needed big improvements in recent years. Part of that is this WES. What else is there that's part of that smart warehouse? There's a whole bunch of stuff. First, as a reminder, the automation because automation is tied to the labor shortage. Even a couple of years ago, it was very common to talk to DC managers or logistics executives, and automation wasn't necessarily very high on the radar. Nowadays, almost close to 100% of the companies we talked to, even smaller companies, are looking at automation of some kind. That could be big automation where you've got traditional sortation systems but can be very large, goods to person systems, those kinds of things. There's also a lot of interest in lighter, more flexible, and less expensive technology things like what are called put walls. What's a put wall? In great simplicity, it is a technique or a structure, which is a module with a series of cubby holes or slots. In one of these modules, we have 1 customer that has 80 of these modules. What you do is you pick the orders, then when you come to the put wall, you distribute the order to the different orders that need that product. I batch pick the product. I bring it either mechanically or manually to the put wall. Typically, a series of lights says, “This company wall number 3 here and needs 1 of the skews. Put wall in. This one needs 2 that skew you put two in. This one needs 1 put 1 in.” That process repeats itself until all of the items for a given order are complete within that cubbyhole. That's called putting. That's why it's called a put wall because you are taking the order in back, and then you are putting it into the put wall. Around the backside, lights will turn on that indicate, “This cubbyhole is now complete.” The operator comes up and touches a button typically. That starts the printing of the label in any shipping documentation that's required in the orders packed, shipped, and off you go. It provides a tremendous amount of productivity. It's very flexible. You can start small. We had one customer that started with a 1-foot wall module, then added 8 or 9 more because they liked it, then they added 20 more because they really liked it, and did this all over a couple of three-year types of the period there. For any kind of piece picking, especially of soft goods but other types of products as well but often driven not only by eCommerce with any kind of heavy piece picking operation can be a great solution but you've got to have the right software to do it. You've got that big like almost a shelf you said like cubbies on that I'm putting a product through it. Maybe I walked over, and I got 10 different sweaters, 10 sweaters that are all the same, and this cubby gets one. As I do that, I'm scanning it or it recognizes that it's in there. It's informing the other side of the cubby when the order is complete. It needs two sweaters and a pair of shoes. That's just one more way. What do you call this? Technology is only part of it. The other piece of the cubby that walking up to that, I could be putting those in bins in the old days but this is putting that on steroids. The bottom line is we are entering a new era where all technologies are, in fact, much smarter than we've ever had before. It was just a new way of doing it. There are a lot of people who talk about this in terms of optimizing materials and handling systems because getting this right is not a trivial task. I don't want to steal all my thunder from later on but the ability to rapidly turn these put walls and cubbyholes are the whole key to the success. If it's taking you a long time to do that, you are not getting the throughput that you required and probably wasting your time and money but if you can rapidly turn those by making sure the inventory gets there on time and efficient execution on both sides of the wall, then you've got something that can drive a lot of productivity. I don't know what the number is. There are quite a few customers now that are using put walls. When we would go out to some new customers, we've got some videos to show them an operation, and they are interested in seeing how this works. It's the technology along with mobile robots that you are going to see, any eCommerce but any kind of piece picking as well, you are going to see a lot of adoption. I'm an automotive guy originally. When you used to go through a plant, you would see people doing lifting heavy things when I first started, crouching down and doing functions that were hard on the body. Maybe it's not hard on 1 day, 1 week or 1 month but over 1 year, you are going to have a bad back, shoulders or knees. The same thing happens in these DCS or the warehousing. This automation you are talking about is making it easier on the workers, which means, “Hopefully, I will be able to keep my workers healthy and make that job again more attractive.” One time, I talked to a VP of logistics at Sherwin-Williams, the paint company. He noted that on the manufacturing side of the operation, they were always having people retire, and during retirement, little parties were almost taken. He said, “There was no one that ever retired from the distribution side.” That's because the heavy worker is picking cases of paint as a young man's job. As people got older, they couldn't do that work anymore. People are obviously rethinking that for the aging factor, and then there's another factor, “How do I make the work easier so I can have somebody in their 50s and 60s continuing to do this at distribution center job?” If you gave me a choice to go work in an old school warehouse, go deliver food or deliver groceries, I'm going to do the grocery delivery. I can make decent money, sit in my car, and I don't have to hurt my back, or knees or walk 5 miles a day. We have to make these jobs more attractive or we are not going to be able to keep and get good people. This automation is of such interest to the jobs now that we become more technicians and less of an order pickers. Besides a put wall, what's some other automation you are seeing out there? The automated mobile robots, economists mobile robots or AMRs. There's a huge interest in that. One of the interesting things is that in both put walls and mobile robots, you are seeing a lot of adoption and interest by a third-party logistics companies. This makes the point. In the past, 3PLs were very reluctant to do any kind of heavy automation because they couldn't sync the return on investment with the contracts that they had from the shipper. If the shipper can pay off that equipment, it's going to take 5, 7 or whatever years, and the shippers only keep you where 2 or 3-year contract, the risk of automation is too great in these other kinds of systems. It includes things like voice, picks the lights, and smart cards. They are all connected in some ways. Those kinds of systems can be put in for much less expense, much lower risk, and be incrementally adapted. You can start with three mobile robots and see how you like it, then we have seven more later on or whatever until you get to the optimal point for your operation. The fact that 3PLs are making this kind of investment as a whole new phenomenon and it speaks to the way you can incrementally get into the technology and the high level of payback that they are seeing because we were very strong in the third-party logistics arena, as an aside, so we are seeing it very closely. The number of 3PLs that are interested in this mid-range of lighter picking systems, not heavy automation but it's often somewhat newer technologies. It speaks to the changes we are seeing out there in the marketplace. Those are robots. Depending on the facility, they are not necessarily always replacing people. I talked to the CEO or president of DHL. He says, “We thought we would be replacing people with robots. The more robots we add to a facility, the more work we end up getting for that facility. We ended up hiring more people.” Everyone has a shortage. Job is going unfilled. If the robots are taking some of that slack but very few case studies of people that are adopting these technologies, they are still looking for people who have been able to be on. [caption id="attachment_7942" align="aligncenter" width="600"] The Smart Warehouse: WES (Warehouse Execution System) will help manage the flow of work and resource utilization.[/caption]   What's another thing we need for that smart warehouse? Let's get into it in some more detail. We talked about some of the core software components, things like warehouse management systems and warehouse execution systems. A platform for integrating this automation with both heavy and/or traditional and newer age capabilities. There are some enabling technologies, things like rules engines, simulation and some other things. The core world's operations excellence is still the foundation. How do I get that right? That typically involves traditional WMS-type capabilities. What does that mean? What defines a warehouse management system versus an inventory system is the pervasive use of mobile terminals, barcode scanning, wireless RF devices or whatever term you want to use there, and then a lot of system directed activity, this whole notion of task management and task monitoring, where the system is orchestrating the different traditional paths of put away, receiving put away, picking replenishment, etc., and support for multiple strategies around that. We have lots of different picking method options, different replenishment strategies that I can use, and things that have been around for a while like slotting optimization, detailed labor management, labor reporting, and things like that. The foundation is core operations excellence. That's what everyone should strive to get to but nowadays, there's no ability to take that even further in terms of different types of capabilities that we think are defining what we are calling the smart warehouse. You used a term there that was an integration platform. What am I integrating? You were integrating primarily different materials handling technologies. That can be things we have had for a wall that conveyor transport and sortation. It can be some of these newer technologies like robots and put walls. The key is, “How do I optimize the flow so I don't have these islands of automation that are all doing their own thing.” I talked to somebody in the apparel industry. They have a very large and highly automated facility somewhere down in the Atlanta area. It's 1 million or 2 million square feet. They are seeing their throughput from that building after huge investments over the years and over time. They are seeing the throughput decline. What's happening, he believed, is that the business keeps changing. They keep having all these new requirements in terms of how an order needs to be processed. What they do is they keep building new wave types. We talked about wave planning before. Now they are up to like 70 or 80 different wave types. Every time there's another problem, wave fight number 82 if that solves our problem, it's not solving the problem. Part of the reason is that the system is not looking holistically across the facility and seeing how I can optimize the flow of work as a whole, not as an individual subsystem. That's part of what we are talking about here with the smart warehouse. That's the thing that traditional WMS has not done. That integration platform means I can connect all the tools and all the different systems I'm using all connect easily through that integration as opposed to the old way, which is a standalone $100,000 integration with expensive people who have to code. That's certainly part of it. It's managing the flow of work across that. I'm getting hit myself again but for example, you can have some scenarios where I have different paths for an order to be fulfilled. One of the paths and the most efficient for certain orders is maybe a group of put wall models. Let's say put wall area, for whatever reason, starts to be congested. All of a sudden, there's a big backup on the conveyor feeding into the put wall area. The system is going to automatically recognize that. For some time, route orders away from the put wall into manual cart picking, which takes them to the packing station, the same packing area where the put wall automotive leads. When the congestion is clear, then the system automatically reroutes that work back to the put walls again. Now you are looking at only the plain integration but in monitoring the flow of work that's happening and making real-time decisions accordingly. I'm an automotive guy, and we had all of those years. We used the term smart factories, and it was the same thing. How do we increase throughput? What can happen is you can end up with a local optimum where some guys are building a big stack of inventory and does nobody any good? What does all that excess inventory doing for me? What makes more sense is to say, “We are going to get this, so there's a flow to it. We are not building up too much inventory. There are no bottlenecks.” This is the same thing. What you are talking about here is, “How do I arrange my people so I don't have these guys sitting around because they already finished while these guys are in a congested area?” The core world's operations excellence is still the foundation. The term flow manufacturing came out of exactly what you are talking about there and was largely developed initially in the automotive industry. We are talking about the same thing. Now we are talking about flow distribution instead of flow manufacturing but the fundamental concepts, more of a pull-based system were being worked on capacities and constraints, more concerned with the total flow of goods and not what's happening in one individual area. All those are very consistent, whether you're looking at the principles that were established earlier in manufacturing or what's being applied here in distribution. I'm going to assume that at one time, the WMS, a big selling point would be, “We will tell you where your inventory is at,” That was probably a big step up. You go, “It does that. Now I'm going to tell you how that inventory moves off of your shelves and out the door and how you bring new inventory.” It's amazing. We still see quite a few every week, we see somebody that's a calling or emailing in, and then we talked to him. It turns out they don't have that real-time visibility of the inventory because they are using some kind of paper-based system or something, and sometimes these are even good size companies. In general, anybody that's implemented a tier-1 or tier-2 level, even WMS shouldn't have that real-time inventory visibility in doing that. It gets into that operations excellence and problem but that's the foundation, “I got to know what I got and where it is by lot, batch, serial number or whatever attribute is important for your operation or combination of attributes.” That's the foundation, but now, we are saying, “How do we optimize on top of that and get more product out the door and lower cost?” It requires investment. Having a WMS tell me, “Here is the information but it's not enough anymore.” To your point, we need all of this to get there. You asked me about some of the components of the smart warehouse, and I talked about it from a product category perspective, but now, I'm talking about it more from a philosophical or a functional view. One of the key foundations is constraining condition awareness, “What's happening in my building? What's happening with the flow of goods?” One of the things that first got me to understand WES in a deeper way is this notion that it's always-on listening and monitoring the environment. If you think about a traditional WMS, it's more sequential-oriented, “I receive the product. I put it away. I replenished pick sites. I do the picking. I take it to pack or evaluated services. I put it in this receiving staging. I get it shipping staging. I get it out the door all very good then the delivered.” A lot of companies don't have that. Organizing and automating all of that are big steps forward but we need to take it to the next level. If you think about this notion, the system is always on monitoring throughput and flow. There are certain rates and throughput that I'm expecting. I need to be able to have a flexible set of dashboards supported by event alerts and notifications. If there's a problem that says, “Here's what's happening across.” However, I wanted to find it in the area, I can define an area as a case picking module or as a whole three-level case pick module. I see that as one unit, and I want to know what the throughput is there. Maybe I want to see it at each level of that pick module. I can see it more gradually. What's nifty about this is that new level of visibility, the activity, throughput, bottlenecks, alerts, and corrective action automated, increasingly automated, if there are bottlenecks. That provides a nice set of real-time dashboards of looking stuff where people can see what's happening, “I have these many orders pending here that's already been completed. Here's how many are in picking,” or all of that level of detail. To understand what's going on here with the smart warehouse is, the system is using that same data that's being exposed to managers and supervisors that's what it's using to make decisions as well. I decided that example of being aware of the backup that's happening in the put wall and automatically, for some time, routing work around that until the congestion is cleared. That's what's different now about this visibility and activity monitoring. Being able to flexibly do that however you want to define a processing area could be evaluated services. It could be peace picking and all these things. Obviously, now the design is at these different flows throughout the facility are in sync. I'm not getting old backed up and packing, which is causing problems way back, picking and replenishment because I haven't automated the visibility and the flow, release in a way that's going to be cognizant and aware that I've got a problem here and, “Here's what I need to do about it for some time until we are adjusting. We are just taking action to solve the problem.” You sent me a PowerPoint and I have this here. It's got that real-time configurable dashboard. It's been a while since I have seen somebody had me a piece of paper but somebody handed me a piece of paper that had 40 columns. It was like an Excel spreadsheet or something, maybe a spin out of a system. It had so much, I looked at it and I was like, “What am I supposed to do with this?” I liked the idea of being able to configure it for those KPIs that I care about. [caption id="attachment_7943" align="aligncenter" width="600"] The Smart Warehouse: One of the things that got me to understand WES in a deeper way is this notion that it's always on, listening and monitoring the environment.[/caption]   I don't want to measure everything. That's just me. Tell me the 4, 5 or 7 things that matter that tells me my warehouse is moving in the right direction, and that things are working well. It says, “Orders with issues.” I also love the idea that I don't find out about the issues in next week's report. I find out about them in real-time. The point that you made is a nice transition to this notion of another component. We talked about the real-time visibility of capacities, constraints, the conditions up there, and the always-on nature of the WES. Now, we have talked about looking at a table of 40 rows of information or whatever. It's all in the past. It brings up a point there, which is even with higher-end WMS, this is one of the learnings and insights that we have. There's still a tremendous amount of decision-making that is being done by human beings. As the manager, whoever you were talking about there in your example, staring at a 40-row spreadsheet or whatever, you see the same thing nowadays of managers and supervisors staring at computer screens, trying to figure out what the right thing to do next. Here's the reality. Every time you do that, first off, you introduce some latency into the system because it takes time to look at those different screens, think about it, make decisions, and scribble some things down on a piece of paper to remind you this needs to be taken care of or whatever. In most cases, there's no way a human being can make the optimal decision in the same way that a computer can. Even if you are a smart guy or girl, there's just too much data and too much to try to process at one time. Part of the capabilities of the smart WMS is the much more advanced software-based decision-making. Things like order batch optimization, given block of orders, “What's the best way to most effectively execute that on the software floor?” What we think is absolutely huge is this notion of the autonomous warehouse, as a term of Gartner is used, and others have used it as well but it talks about being able to automatically release work without the need for a wave planner, inventory expediters or all the kind of people that you see often involved in these decisions about what work to do when. Work relation on a variety of attributes, things like the order of priority, the inventory and resource availability, what kind of optimization opportunities are there? The bigger the order pool and more optimization opportunities you have because they are more data or conditions to be optimized but you can't hold on so long. You are not getting the throughput out through your cutoff time. This is a huge one. It's sophisticated. Whereas now, at 4:00 or 5:00, when the UPS, FedEx or whatever truck is leaving, you often see, and we have made commitments to the eCommerce is going to ship, you see a certain amount of chaos going around, trying to figure out all the orders that need to go on that truck, have been on the trucking and what to do about it. What we are talking about here is we are saying, “This is the work. We know how long it's going to take to pick and transport those orders to the shipping dock.” The work is going to automatically release itself. At the beginning of the day, we are more concerned about optimization. We still got a lot of decent amount of time, so we can focus on doing it the most efficient we can but as you go throughout the day, that needle starts to change from the focus on efficiency and cost to efficiency on customer service and making sure that those items are on there. The system does that automatically. It's configured to take those into consideration. Now those orders are getting on the trucks automatically without the chaos and the difficulty that's going on out there. This is a step-change capability here. We are talking about a system that is self-learning and in optimal how releases work. This is another concept we have had in distribution software before, and this is what defines what works on the smart warehouse. I had a boss in the past when I was young, I remember I sent an Excel spreadsheet to him, and it told a story. He's pulled me into his office and said, “This is a great Excel spreadsheet. I have to go through here and come to the same conclusion you did.” I go, “It's easy.” He goes, “No. When you send me this Excel spreadsheet, send me a recommendation. I don't want to have to come to a conclusion. That's your job. Show me that you attach the data back up but give me a recommendation.” I feel the same take way about running a warehouse, “Don't make me figure it out myself. Give me an alert that says, ‘This is a problem. This is how many orders are at risk. This is how many orders need to get on that truck that isn't done yet.'” To show you a simple example. Still, a lot of people, especially for eCommerce, are doing manual cart picking. I may have a cart that's got a certain configuration 3x3 or 4x4. What I mean by a 3x3 would be 3 shelves that each have room for 3 cartons each. I have nine total orders that I'm working on there. Most companies that we see do that are doing it with paper picking or pick by label or something. There's some attempt to do that more efficiently but something as simple as cart picking. The smart warehouse can take it to a whole new level. First off, you've got to get this order pool that's out there and at any one period. I'm probably going to have done some cartonization logic there to determine what should go in what box, especially with a multi carton order. In most cases, there's no way a human being can make the optimal decision in the same way that a computer can. Even if you're really smart, there's just too much data to process at one time. If you are shipping, for example, you don't want to put perfume in the same carton as payroll because of the obvious contamination that can happen there. When a picker comes up and scans a barcode on that cart, the system is going to automatically know it's this configuration, 3x3, 4x4 or whatever. It will have done some optimization typically in terms of what's called cluster picking were, “I'm going to take that cart to one location. I will put as many orders as I can on the cart that is signed to that cart that has the same set of skews so I can minimize my travel distance. Hopefully, I'm being clear on what that means.” Now I get to that location that can be done with lights or it can be done with barcode scanning. It says, “Take one of these from this location, put it in the carton slot 3'1, which is the 3rd shelf and the first location. The next one is 3'2. 2'3, 2'1 or whatever that sequence. I'm doing that in a way that makes it very efficient but we can take it even still beyond that. What if a high-priority order comes on? The pickers walk along as long as there's a location on that cart, whether it's a carton or a tote they are picking into. If it hasn't been started, we can remove automatically a lower priority order and insert a higher priority order that has come down onto that card as long as we would typically do it. The picker doesn't have to turn around and go backward as long as it picks for the new order or ahead of that picker. We do that without the picker, even being aware that it happened. You can expedite automatically like, “I got a truck that's going to be here one hour. We haven't even started yet. Let's get this going.” We say, “If you get an order in by 2:00, we will ship it that day. If it's 1: 58, all of a sudden, an order drops. I got two minutes.” This isn't going to automatically insert a higher priority order possible. I like something you said in there that we talked about the labor problem with these guys walking around maybe 5 or 10 miles in a day. One of the reasons we are going to quit, especially if you are me, is I don't want that many steps. When I walk over there, all my orders are in the same area, then I walk over here, and all my orders are there, as opposed to one side of the warehouse, and another order on the other side or I'm walking and go, “What has my life become where I walk back and like this?” Order pool optimization as well because the bigger the batch that I'm working with, the more opportunities I have to gain those picks together. On a given card, I'm maybe walking a very few feet. To your point, and this is where you get into the whole notion of mobile robots because now, perhaps that, “I go to the pick location, I pick the order but I'm putting it on a pick card. I'm putting it on a mobile robot, and the mobile robots can move on to the next location or on the packing of the orders completed. I'm walking very little at that point or comparatively little, which is one of the attractiveness of mobile robot technology.” Hopefully, it's becoming clearer. The nature of the warehouse is changing, and a part of that's going to have to be to not only be more cost-efficient and get more out the door with the staff that I've got but it's making sure that people have a less miserable work experience and hence hopefully going to stay with this a lot longer. This is not your grandpa's warehouse anymore. To be competitive, it used to be like, “These guys are high tech because they have a WMS.” Now we are starting to spin out the automation, the warehouse execution, and the integration platform. This is all getting really high-tech. Do you think this is probably the lowest-tech business there was many years ago? House is all going to play out. It's going to be interesting to see but the lighter automation techniques, including the robots and the put walls, are so attractive in terms of their flexibility and expandability. There are machine learning, artificial intelligence, and all kinds of things going to be involved here. The warehouses are becoming technology centers. If you see the private equity money that's flowing into robotics firms, AI firms, and others, in a lot of the smart money, it's the work that they do. Companies, retailers, and other eCommerce companies are starting to realize the importance of a well-run warehouse. Was this guy's quiet logistics? They've got bought by American Eagle. That was American Eagle recognizing the traditional retailer, the same thing we're going to buy ourselves a warehousing company because that's how important this business is. The force behind what has become locus robots. We will move our vendors that happened because Amazon had bought key assist systems right before that and left a quiet without a partner for automation they were building the business on. They invented their own robot. [caption id="attachment_7944" align="aligncenter" width="600"] The Smart Warehouse: What's really different now about this kind of visibility and activity monitoring is being able to flexibly do that however you want to define a processing area.[/caption]   Bruce Welty was at my show. He's the Founder of Quiet. He said he got a phone call saying, “Are you guys using those Locus robots?” He says, “Yeah, how do you like them?” “We like them a lot. Can we come to visit?” “Sure.” It was Amazon. Amazon looked around and said, “We love this.” They bought Locus. A couple of other things I would like to bring up. First, broader use of some automation ideas or IoT type devices. RFID is starting to make something of a comeback years after Walmart tried back in 2003 or 2004. Generally, you are going to see many manual scanning activities that are going to disappear or if I need to move this way back now from being implemented at the store level by customers concerned with the eCommerce fulfillment for inventory equity purposes, you are going to see a move back up into the distribution operations. That will certainly be a big part of it. We were already doing things like, for example, we are a broker with a pick cart. Picker with a pick cart can walk up to a fixed zone. The IoT automatically recognizes that this person is on. It automatically turns on the pick lights that are on those four pick locations. It's a minor thing there but that's an advancement we are going to see. We have even done some stuff with congestion management and COVID, where we can tell exactly where somebody is in the I or using IoT and being able to assign work based on real-time visibility to who's closest to that work, but also when the COVID area being able to space people apart so that they don't get to say within 8 feet of each other, whatever that happens to be, whatever your metric you want to use, therefore that group constraint. There are some various things that can happen there. This is still slow going. It hasn't taken off as fast as many people think but you are going to see RFID and IoT start to make some mural inroads over the next years. We have this follow the notion of Gartner and what's considered to be called a conversational voice. The transactional voice is doing the picking, pallet build or something using voice technologies. Typically, reading in a location check digit and doing a hands-free pick, replenishment or whatever the task might be but we're starting to get now into more of a dialogue. We are all ready to the point now where we can have a supervisor take a smartphone and say, “Show me how I'm doing on wave number 235,” over a smartphone. That's going to bring back exactly what's happening now or, “Where's the replenishment for location on 3652?” We are still early in this game here but certainly, we will move to more of a dialogue going on with the WMS and WES than just playing transactional voice-type of technology. We ended with a very exciting where the future interface of the software is going to had. This is where that integration platform you talked about comes in handy. I can connect to all this stuff. The new killer app that comes out, I can get it. We have been left there. Automation and optimization of materials handling systems is certainly a key part of this. We refer to it, not just as a smart warehouse's the future but as the smart automated across to the future due to the interest in the technologies we have talked about several times already. We can directly connect with these picking assistance, like walls, pick the light or voice without the need for third-party software. Everyone else uses some kind of software from the put wall vendor, pixelate vendor or voice vendor, which adds another layer of integration and costs. It often results in people operating silos. We can directly control a lot of these materials handling technologies. It allows you to operate and optimize those in the context of everything that's happening in the world and all the information that's available, which provides you a lot of benefits over time because you are not just trying to operate in silos. I talked to somebody that was using a pick-to-light system. They talked about how at the end of every week, they've got to go in and clean up all these pics that some of them never were executed in the pick-to-light system. I'm not quite sure why that is but it wouldn't happen with the way we are approaching things because we would be aware of that. It probably has to wait on a real punishment. The problem is the pixelate vendor doesn't do replenishment the documents. You've got these silos going on here and there are a lot of opportunities. In terms of that integration platform, we think this is especially true for mobile robots, people are using the mobile software of the mobile robots. What that does is it limits the total optimization that can be achieved but more importantly, you are now totally dependent on that robot software. What if you want to add different robots or change horses three years from now? There's a better mousetrap that works faster or whatever that happens to be. Now you have become locked in. We refer to it not just as smart but the smart automated across to the future. We think the market needs a mobile robot and a broader automation integration platform. It's almost like an operating system for automation in the warehouse that's going to allow you to have visibility to optimization of robots of different kinds from the same manufacturer of different types for different manufacturers. You are not locked in. It's like a plug-and-play type of environment here three years from now. You can keep the robots or keep dependent you bought, but now, you want to add five more from a different vendor, plug them into this operating system, and have instant connectivity and the ability to optimize the performance. We think that's a much more low-risk approach going forward than locking yourself into a vendor that's coming to the software that's coming from the robot vendor. Get back to the idea of a smart warehouse. It's all about throughput. If I have different systems that are connecting, that are doing local optimums, that's a problem because it's not supporting throughput. I always need that one source of truth. That's the main system that says, “This is all about getting stuff out the door here.” I wanted to bring up one. Earlier, I talked about wanting to give an example of what the put wall. I referenced that as the cubbyholes in put walls. Here's the scenario we are seeing. Let's say there are three line items eCommerce order. Two of those line items in the order come from a carton flow rec area, that's very close to packing. I mean those orders are efficient to pick, in short distance to transport. The third line item is actually coming from a slow-moving mezzanine pick area that's farther away and is less efficient to pick. If you don't do anything, otherwise what's going to happen in those first two items from that order are going to show up rather quickly, then they are going to sit and wait for 10, 15, 20, 45 minutes or whatever it happens to be for that third item on the pick, the order to finally show up. The cubbyhole has been tied up that entire time. What's the smarter warehouse way of doing it? What's the WES way of doing it? Let's say it's 25% slower to go through the mezzanine or whatever the number you want to use it. We would release that third line item in effect 25% or 30% earlier. After the time it takes to pick and transport that as it's on its way to the pack station, now we release the other two orders line items in the carton flow rack. They show up at the put wall for processing at relatively the same time, and now I'm able to turn that wall without the latency that would occur if you didn't have smart software to do that. Hopefully, that's an example that makes it somewhat clearer as to how the optimization can affect operational performance. You would never be able to get that done manually. It doesn't happen. This is like drinking from a fire hose. There is so much going on in this. Put a bow on this. Give us your final thoughts on this. What do I need to get to have that smart warehouse? First of all, the benefit is it is going to reduce labor costs, have higher and more consistent DC throughput, you are going to reduce your need for automation in terms of things like the number of diverse or get more throughput out of the automation you have there. We didn't talk much about labor planning but that's a big part of it. We can dynamically assign workers throughout the course of a shift from 1 to 8 to 9, 9 to 10, or 10 to 11 hours where are they needed motion and in what quantities, improved automated decision-making. It's an assessment. Certainly, if you are heavily automated, there are a lot of opportunities for you. As I tried to make the point earlier, even if you're only modestly automated or not automated at all, these capabilities can have some real benefit for your operations there. The important thing to note with Softeon is these can be implemented very incrementally. I could implement a traditional WMS. Let's say I want the labor planning and allocation part of it. We can take that capability from WES and attach it to the WMS. To give you a solution, conversely, if you want to implement WES and leave your existing WMS in place, we didn't talk too much about that but that's a key dynamic. You need cartonization, which is a warehouse management function and even attach cartonization to that WES implementation. Flexibility is key. That's what we try to design. We call it a shirt component library, where the applications can borrow components, functionality, and services from each other. We are pretty confident that it gives us a chance to understand what you are trying to accomplish, what your operations are like or whatever that some combination of these technologies is going to have a pretty good fit and take your world to a whole new level than we have seen over the last many years. What's new over at Softeon?. What conferences do you go into? We have done with the motor show, and it was a big success for us. We not only showed the smart warehouse, we presented the smart warehouse capabilities. We had a lot of equipment pick the light, other packing stations, etc., right on our routes. At the bottom of every hour, we did a presentation. We had consistently good traffic the whole time. We did a bit of an educational track and a session on the smart warehouse of the future available on Softeon. It was very well attended. That was good. We will be at the Gartner Supply Chain Symposium down in Orlando and then break after that. [caption id="attachment_7945" align="aligncenter" width="600"] The Smart Warehouse: Even if you're just modestly automated, these capabilities can have some real benefits on your operations. These can be implemented very incrementally.[/caption]   We finished up a series of educational broadcasts called the WMS Bootcamp, six different sessions on everything from building the business case to how to implement it successfully. It was a huge success, but all of that's now available on-demand. If they go up to Softeon.com. You will be able to find some links to that. If you have any interest in WMS, they're not commercial, educational sessions. You will find they have a lot of value. The feedback we got on it was outstanding. I would like to watch myself because we went over this and it is gone from simple to more complex over time. I know you are simplifying it but to understand what's required requires a Bootcamp. We learned a lot of lessons. I brought in some consultants and people that I knew and knew what they were talking about in terms of building the business case. We had some folks from Invista that came on and did that. I had some experience or exposure. I knew they knew what they were talking about. Some of that applies to some other consultants as well. It's a real nice series. It's non-commercial. If you want to learn some tips about how to get WMS selection and implementation, you'll find the Bootcamp serves you well. How do we reach out and talk to you over at Softeon? The way to get me is via email. My email address is DGilmore@TheSofteon.com. You can also use Contact@Softeon.com for the general inquiry box. I love to hear from you. Hopefully, we came across, so at least you know a little bit about what I'm talking about and discuss your problems as well. Anyone who wants to reach out can reach out and talk to you about the smart warehouse. Thanks, Joe. I enjoyed it. It was a great conversation. Thank you so much, Dan. Thank all of you for reading. Your supports are very much appreciated, until next time and more network.   Important Links Softeon Supply Chain Digest WMS Bootcamp DGilmore@TheSofteon.com Contact@Softeon.com https://www.linkedin.com/company/softeon The Logistics of Logistics Podcast If you enjoy the podcast, please leave a positive review, subscribe, and share it with your friends and colleagues. The Logistics of Logistics Podcast: Google, Apple, Castbox, Spotify, Stitcher, PlayerFM, Tunein, Podbean, Owltail, Libsyn, Overcast Check out The Logistics of Logistics on Youtube

This week has been hard I probably take a break from the podcast to keep focusing on healing we will see right now im taking it one day out of time. I Google the stages of breaking up and found this article https://www.domesticshelters.org/articles/taking-care-of-you/5-stages-of-recovery-after-a-breakup and I guess im in the denial stage. Long story short I left Puerto Rico when I was 15 years old first lived with mom then moved with my biological father and well boyfriend was my first person after my parents he was a huge part of my life. I got ghosted but it was needed because I didn't have the strength to leave him for real real I broke up with him all the time but I Kew I would always come back. Anyways right now focusing on learning about what im going through, looking for tools to help me survive and surrounding myself with friends I consider family. If you like to stay in touch, check out my linktree profile where I have all my social media https://linktr.ee/Lifewithfrancy. Hope everybody have a blessed day. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/francelyn-devarie/support

In Episode 4 of Almost Every Month Podcast, our guest is Yena from Moonlit Planning (@moonlitplanning). Yena talks about the perfect layout and discusses with me all of her tools and tricks for organizing her life with her planner. I spend some time outlining the pros and cons of digital versus paper planning, and provide my best advice to newbies just entering the realm of planning. Plus, I Google the difference between a journal and a diary, and give you a special Hobonichi entry translation just for 4/20 day! If your life could use a bit of organization, I provide some of the inspiration you will need to get started and keep going in this episode! In his Whiskered Scribe segment, Mike Quest (IG: mikequestst) faces another side to the conundrum of using paper--that planning perfectionism that prevents us from starting to use a new journal or planner because it is too precious and we don't want to wreck it! Welcome to Almost Every Month--(Hobo maitsuki no poddokyasuto)--A podcast about all things ephemera—journals, planners, pens, paper, ink and more. In this first series, I delve deeply into the wildly popular Hobonichi planners and all the culture that surrounds them—from the storied history of its founder Shigesato Itoi to the cottage industries and influencers that have sprung up around it. Special guests from the planner, pen and journal world will make appearances in each episode. The name Almost Every Month was chosen as a play on the meaning of Hobonichi (the 'almost every day' blog) Tune in almost every month for the next Almost Every Month Podcast, and please consider supporting this podcast if you love it by becoming a Patreon member-which is also where the extensive show notes live. Stickers and shoutouts and more await our members!

-For the “who are your 3 dream dinner guests?” question, I feel like every person should choose Jesus as their first overall pick. Because even if you're not religious and you don't believe in God, I think you just gotta the lowdown. See what he's all about. Is he really the son of God or was he just a random dude? Test him. Make him turn water into wine at the table. And if he really is a miracle worker and all this stuff is true, then you will probably be handsomely rewarded in Heaven. Otherwise, there might be a little hold up at the gate where he says like “Hey remember when you could've invited me to dinner but you picked Will Smith instead?” Straight to Hell. -I don't like the “clap police” who thinks it's their job to decide when it is and isn't acceptable to clap. People get so mad when people clap after a movie ends or when a plane lands? Why? That seems like a great time to clap. You just survived the miracle of flight. You should clap. You should celebrate. you should go bow down to the pilot and kiss his feet and it would all be justified. -I think I'm out on HIPAA. I went to the dentist last week and we were talking about work and he mentioned he'd seen a few other Barstool employees in the past and when I asked who, he said “Oh sorry I can't. That's a HIPAA violation.” What? That's not some private thing that needs to be protected. I'm not going to think less of someone for going to the dentist. It should be a positive thing. HIPAA needs a little more sense. -Whenever I'm the first person in my party to arrive at a bar or restaurant, I always do everything in my power to make sure people know I'm not alone when I get to the table. I'll start filling up multiple water glasses. Throw my jacket on a different seat. I want it to look like someone's in the bathroom or something so people don't think “Oh there's Tommy Smokes by himself being a pathetic loser.” -Anytime I have a tech problem with a phone, laptop, TV, whatever it may be, I'm always convinced that no simple update or online solution will help. I always think I'm the first person that has ever had that problem and that I'll need to buy an entirely new device but then pretty much every time I Google it, I find someone describing the same problem essentially word for word. -Whenever I'm on a long line, and it's finally my turn to go up, I feel so much pressure to be the hero that goes quicker than everyone else did. Maybe it's the Target self checkout line, I'll sort of give everyone a look back like, “Don't worry boys, I got this.” And I want everyone to appreciate how fast I am but I feel like most of the time nobody notices or cares.

Today we are continuing what I am now calling the “New Kids on the Blockchain” series with a little episode about Web3 and what the hell it even is. The fun part about this episode is that I am joined by my wonderful cousin Hannah Dudley, who is basically my sister and best friend all wrapped up in one. The best part is that she studied symbolic systems at Stanford University and actually has some credibility when talking about this stuff, as opposed to my knowledge of the top three articles that come up when I Google “web3”Sources Referenced: https://www.wired.com/story/web3-gavin-wood-interview/https://www.forbes.com/sites/bernardmarr/2022/01/24/what-is-web3-all-about-an-easy-explanation-with-examples/?sh=5afbae122255

Dr. Melissa Bird is a clairvoyant coach, author and fiery public speaker. Melissa has traveled around the world, talking to audiences at universities, conferences and churches. Her combination of education, real life experience and practical advice, makes her a powerful force of change in the lives of the people she speaks to. Past audience members have described her as fierce, revelatory, life-changing, enthusiastic and inspirational.   Learn more about Melissa. Learn more about The Passionistas Project.   Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Dr. Melissa Bird. As a clairvoyant coach, author and fiery public speaker, Melissa has traveled around the world, talking to audiences at universities, conferences, and churches. Her combination of education, real life experience, and practical advice, makes her a powerful force of change in the lives of the people she speaks to. Past audience members have described her as fierce, revelatory, life-changing, enthusiastic and inspirational. So please welcome to the show Dr. Melissa Bird. Hi Melissa, we're so glad you're here. What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Melissa: It's evolved over time. Right? So it used to be that I was the most passionate about helping women and girls use their voice. Right? Like that was sort of the foundation from which I operated for a long time. And lately, like in the last two years, I think it's really turned into helping people really learn how to harness the power of their rebellion for good. And really healing the shame and wounding we have around rebellious, honest, and helping people really identify what it is that they feel deeply passionate about so that they can go out and do that thing. And usually it is an act of rebellion to be able to go out and do that thing. Why is that so important and what exactly do you mean by. Well, I think we get sent this very powerful message from internalized misogyny and externalized patriarchy that says, you know, if you speak out, if you, if you have an opinion that is different than what we think is appropriate, which is often steeped in white supremacy and racism, by the way, like if you speak against anything that is outside of that normal. Then you are a rebel. And for so long, we have been taught that we're not allowed to say what's on our mind. And yet we all have a different opinion and we all have feelings and we all have things that are on our minds. And I think that it is time for us to judge. Screw it like, forget about it. I just say it and I can easily say that from my little, you know, beautiful corner of the world. And sometimes it's, it's deadly for people to say that. And in fact, right before this, I was in a mastermind group with a bunch of other people that I'm participating in and I was sobbing and I was like, I am terrified. To peel off this next layer of who I am and speak this truth about dismantling empire Christianity. And here, I'm just going to come out on the podcast right now about dismantling empire Christianity as someone who believes deeply in God, like, and I preach it, my Episcopal church and thinking about how do we heal the pain of years of patriarchal. You know, internalized messaging and how do we start to engage in absolute rebellion around those things so that it's no longer dangerous for everybody to speak because we're all speaking. Passionistas: Why does that scare you so much? Melissa: I'm just really afraid of being killed for it. Like honestly, like whether I get eviscerated, you know, trolled taken down, shut down, literally killed, you know, When I was doing LGBT activism in Utah, before I went to get my PhD, I was born and raised in Utah. Like I'd grown up there. And I remember I had been with my wife, my ex-wife and, um, you know, we never held hands in public cause we couldn't, it was dangerous to do that. And I remember when. She left. And I ended up dating men again because I'm bisexual. And I remember when my now husband held my hand for the first time in public and I pulled my hand away and he's like, what's wrong? And I was like, we can't, that's dangerous. And he's like, looking at me like, what is wrong with you? And I was like, I had that, I started crying and I was like, I had this moment where I realized I haven't touched in the human being in public and. Because when you do you get attacked and physically and emotionally abused, right? So here I am on this edge of this next expansion in my life. And like, this is what I love about the work that you all are doing is the stories you highlight and the work that you all are doing brings us to the next level. You're showing how we evolve over time. The woman I was when I was in my twenties is not the woman that I am now. Like my whole. The things I focus on, the things I'm passionate about has evolved over time and we have to allow for that as women supporting other women. And I think oftentimes we think we're only allowed to be passionate about that thing. We were still passionate about 15, 20 years ago. No. And really honing in on what does light us up and what does make us feel passionate and being willing to honor that and in each other.   Instead of trying to destroy that in each other. I think that's why I'm afraid. I think that the point that it all evolves and that we need to keep evolving. Somehow we expect ourselves to like, be fully evolved by the time we're like 27. Like I see it in my daughter, who's 19. She's like, she's like, I feel like I'm totally behind. And I'm like, what are you behind? Like behind what Jesus did. And she's like, and she always refers back to. Instagram and Snapchat. And you know, these, these people that she's watching who have made it by like 23 and I'm out, but that's not real. And, and how to help her still be excited and ambitious and support her and like, I don't want to say that young people are diluted because I think they can do whatever they want, but sometimes these delusions of being behind and somehow they're supposed to be catching up to something that's not that doesn't exist. I think it's just, we're in such a fascinating time. I think I really do believe we're on the precipice of really major change. I mean, if there's anything we've learned from COVID-19 at this. Everything is different. And, and so I love how people keep trying to tell us we're going to get back to normal. I'm like, no, we're not because your normal, my normal are not the same. And what you thought was normal was actually called white supremacy and racism and heteronormativity and sexism. And that's not, you know, that's falling. Passionistas: Let's take a step back. You mentioned that you grew up in Utah. Tell us a little bit about your childhood, your family background, your heritage, and what impact that has on your life today. Melissa: I did grow up in Utah, but I'm okay. I'm just kidding. I grew up in park city, Utah before Sundance became a thing. So we lived in salt lake and then we moved to park city. I did not grow up in a traditional LDS household. So, um, part of that was because my dad committed suicide when I was. And my mother was basically forcibly pushed out of, um, our local ward by our Bishop. And so she lost her faith. I don't know that my mom, my mom was funny. Cause I don't know that she'd ever say she had a strong faith, but you know, she did what she was supposed to be doing. So this was 1980, which even though we like to pretend that Utah's like, you know, this goody two-shoes state, it was also the height of the cocaine epidemic. Right. So mama started partying and she started. Her heart was broken. Like my dad broke her heart. And, um, I didn't realize that at the time, of course, cause I was a kid, I was six years old and we ended up in a lot of chaos growing up. My dad is Southern Paiute and so I was also cut off from my indigenous native American heritage. And that was a very complicated relationship anyway, because. My grandparents are not the kindest people on the planet, on his side of the family. And so what happened was I ended up being mostly raised by my aunts, my aunt Nancy, and my grandma Mary. So my grandma and my aunt basically raised me and my sister. And they were both very involved in the junior league and the league of women voters. And so I learned that it wasn't rude to talk about politics at the time. And I learned how to volunteer, because say what you will about you. I actually feel like the, the strong service component of the LDS church is really beautiful. And I learned a lot about serving others and talking about politics. And so, as I was growing up, I always just assumed that women were involved in. Because of my aunt and my, my grandma. And so I staged my first protest when I was 17. I was a senior in high school and I found Ms. Magazine. And I could not believe that there were all these atrocities happening in the world. And so I staged my first, it was a one-woman protest cause no one else would go with me, but you know, they didn't want to get in trouble, but I liked discovered that there's this whole world out there. And really started getting involved in action and activism. Then I think that was really the birth of it. And it was not a very good student. The only reason I have a PhD was to just prove myself, I'm really smart, but like I was in and out of college and just really struggled and really struggled with my sexual orientation and really, really struggled with religion because I was told my whole life through messaging that I was not worthy of. God. And love. And at the same time I was hearing from my grandma, my aunt, how fabulous and wonderful and beautiful and worthy I was of all these things. And so it's been a hell of a ride. I've always wanted Angelina Jolie to play me for my made for television movie on lifetime television networks. I really like, that's always Angelina Jolie is going to play me in my movie, but, you know, I, I like to say I've been married almost as much as Liz Taylor. I've been through a lot of marriages to men and. And, you know, here I am living in Corvallis, Oregon with three kids and this husband and running three businesses actually, cause you know, one just wasn't enough and I'm coaching these women to like heal their rebel, shame and wounding and, and really like engaging in tapping into their intuition and their magic to make a difference in their lives and their community. It's really awesome. So had this really chaotic bananas childhood, and it was partially homeless, like technically like couch surfing and didn't know what I was doing. And now here I am, who knew. Passionistas: At what point, if at all, did you reconnect with the indigenous side of your family? Melissa: Because I was cut off from that part of my family. I actually was trying to figure out more about my dad, but I couldn't really ask my mom because it's too painful for her and I didn't want to bug her with it. So back in 2006, I Google searched my dad, his name, cause I wanted to find his obituary. Cause I didn't, I don't think I'd ever seen it. And so in 2006, I Google search my dad and my uncle Arval popped up because my uncle Arval is a music. And I remember my uncle Arville because he used to play, the devil goes down to Georgia on the fiddle for me when I was little kid by before I was six. And I remembered that and he played the fiddle for Alabama back in the day. And he had become this, you know, native American musical award-winning artist with his flute and his fiddle. And I had no idea, like I had no idea. And so he had a phone number on his website and so. And I thought I was going to die. Like I was like, why am I even doing this? It's so scary. And his wife, Kimberly picked up the phone and I said, hi, you know, is our hole there? And she said, who's this? And I said, this is his niece, Melissa Bird, Vern's oldest daughter. And she just started crying in any way. And we ended up talking and he actually reconnected me with the Vernon, my grandmother, and we talked and wrote letters back and forth. She was very disappointed. I wasn't a member of the LDS church because she was a very staunch LDS woman. And so there was a lot of pretty hurtful rhetoric there. But through her, I connected with actually through our role. I think I connected with my cousin, Vanessa and my cousin, Steven, and my cousin Steven lives on the Navajo nation. And then my cousin Vanessa lives here in Oregon. And so it was through them that I started really putting the pieces of our lives back together and learning more about, you know, our native American, who we are and our client that should what clan and, and really learning about that indigenous identity. And it's been a really fascinating process because we complicate it so much. You know, I started learning about what it would mean to enroll and I can't enroll because my great grandmother. Opted not to in 1936, she started the process, but she opted not to because they wanted her to move to live on the reservation and she didn't want to. And so there's a lot of complication when it comes to that identification and it wasn't until I met one of my really good friends here in Oregon. And she looked at me and she's like, you know that this is in your blood. Like your ancestry is in your blood. It's who you are. And it doesn't matter if you are enrolled or not. You are a Shivwit Paiute. And yet at the same time, there was all of the stuff coming out about pretending there's this horrible term. So often. And there's this list that's been put out of academics who are supposedly not really quote unquote Indians, like they're not native American, except for they all totally are. And there is this idea of what it means to be an indigenous native American person in the United States. That varies depending on who people are. And it's because of colonialization and it's because of white supremacy. And it's because of. And this is something I like to tell, like really explain to people historically, when you think about the one drop rule for blood, the one drop rule for Africans was to create a workforce, right? Of people, the One Drop Rule for native Americans for indigenous people on this land was to annihilate them completely and eliminate them from the face of. So we're doing that pretty effectively here, you know, in the, in north America and in other parts of the world. And it's so complicated. And yet we, we drill it down to enrollment, which by the way, is a very separatists construct that people don't understand. And so reconnecting with my cousins and the people who understand. Language and our history and who want to reconnect me to those things has been a really emotional journey. It's a lot, it's a lot. And finding those letters from my great grandma, like my cousin, send them to me and just reading that story of her, trying to figure out who our great, great grandparents were and confirming who our great-great-grandparents were and when they died and how they died is really it's amazing. And it's also that until I think those are the stories we don't talk about. Passionistas: You're listening to The Passionistas ProjectProject Podcast in our interview with Dr. Melissa Bird. To learn more about her Misfit Magic Hour one-on-one coaching and masterclass series, visit NaturalBornRebel.com. If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us continue to create inspiring, please consider becoming a patron by visiting ThePassionistasProject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $1 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions. Now here's more of our interview with Melissa. In 2017, you found it Natural Born Rebel. So what is the mission of Natural Born Rebel and how did you get started? Melissa: I didn't want to go into academia. I mean, let's be real. I will not go work for a research, one institution on a tenure track position. Like I was like, I was not having it. I just wrapped all the things. So I did not want to do that. And I happened to go on a retreat with the coach. Susan Hyatt was my. And I went on this retreat and she's like, we need to get you up on stages and you need to be talking to people and you know, you've got this vision and this mission of helping women really find their voice. And we've got to figure that out. I was like, okay, whatever. Like I'm just in Scotland, like peeling apart, all the layers of what the heck am I doing next? And two things happened on that trip. One was that I decided that I was going to become a coach and really start to create programs where I could. Take, I taught social justice and advocacy and schools of social work for like 15 years. And I wanted to bring all that to the masses. Like I wanted to really help people learn how they can engage in advocacy on their own terms. And so I did that. And then the other thing that happened was that I had the vision for the Mermaid's Garden, which we'll get to in a second. I'm sure. But I met a woman named Susie while I was there and we didn't talk after. After we left Scotland, basically. Like we talk every once in a while, but you know, we lost touch and then randomly, she called me a couple of years later and she's like, I just got this divine download for you. And you're supposed to start this thing called Natural Born Rebel. And I just bought you the URL and you need to teach this thing called Rebel School. And these are all the components you need to put into Rebel School. And we need you to write a book. And in that book, we want you to talk about these things. And so I'll send you the URL. And did you take notes because I've got to go back into a meeting and I just want to make sure you're going to follow through with this. And I was in a Lyft going to the airport cause I'd been flown to San Bernardino to teach a class on social justice. Right. Does this happen to you often? And I was like, well kind of, not that directly. So I get on the plane and I've got all this stuff from Susie. And I just started writing and I outlined and wrote like half the book on the plane from San Bernardino to Portland, Oregon. Right. And then I get home and I just start, like, all this stuff just starts flooding out of me. I called the person who did my original website for Bird Girl Industries. And I said, I'm transitioning to Natural Born Rebel and I need you to build me a website. And these are the things that have to be on it. Here's the lesson like when you get the messages that seem totally random and out there, they're not because what has happened is that rebel school has evolved into this. I can't even explain. It's so old school. It is so beautiful. And it's gone from being the 16 week. I don't know what the hell I'm doing here. Have a couple of one-on-one coaching sessions to this 18 week program. Is the most gorgeous, amazing thing that I have ever had the privilege of facilitating. And the book is free on my website, Natural Born Rebel, and there's journal prompts in it that are amazing. And I'm actually just getting ready to do the second edition of it, because now that I've been doing Rebel School for so long, I just say there's so much, that's not in there that I want people to know. And I would not be here teaching, doing this work coaching because I do one-on-one coaching. And then I do clairvoyant reading, where someone comes and brings me up a problem. They want clarity on what their business or their life. And we do a reading and it's amazing. And I just never thought that I'd be sitting here having this conversation with y'all about how, like I'm a lay preacher and a clairvoyant where to like, you know, I mean, no, this was, this was not the grand plan. When I got a PhD four years ago. I couldn't, I didn't know what would, how Natural Born Rebel would happen. Passionistas: Tell us about Misfit Magic Hour and how those sessions work.   Melissa: Oh, my gosh. They're so fun. I had no idea. Again, this is me listening. So my amazing virtual assist, assistant Emma. She was like, I told her, I was like, I, I finished clairvoyant training cause I did this huge year long clairvoyance training. That's what I did independent because I was like, I'm going to totally figure out how to channel dead people. Like he doesn't want to be able to do that. I was like, okay. So I finished my clairvoyance training and Emma was like, you need to start doing readings. And I was like, oh no, I know I do this and this and this. And it was like, no, we're going to call it Misfit Magic Hour. And you're going to just, you're going to give people clarity and confidence in one hour, and then people will learn what it's like to work with you. And I was like, oh no, no, no, I'm not going to publicly. Like, what are you talking about? She's like, don't worry. I've got all the copy done. We're just going to make it happen. And we're launching in two weeks. And I was like, oh no. Now I have to start telling people that I want to do, like channeling and clairvoyance and coaching with them. And Emma was like, yeah. And I was like, oh my God. She's like, it's, you're going to be flying. And I'm like, I don't know what if people hate me. It's like, what if I say something stupid? What is the ghost? Don't come in. Like, what if I can come in with spirit and I've made this promise. So the coolest part about magic hour, it's so good. So it's like 20 minutes of coaching. So people come in, I tell people, come in with two or three things that you really want clarity on, whether it's in your life. And then the last, like 25 minutes or a card reading where I either use Oracle cards or tarot cards, depending on my mood and the person. And we do a reading to talk about their current situation, what they need to know, and then their, their future situate. Like if you do these things, this is what could happen. Never in a million years. Y'all did I think I was going to have so much fun doing this? Cause I was like all serious. I was like, well now. So incredible. The things that I see visually like amazing what spirit can do to get the message across the ad. Because I leaned, my teacher gave me all these tools and, and so now I have this framework to go on, but I've turned it into my own, which is the point. Cause we can't all do things the same. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And everyone who does them, it's like, oh my God, I feel so clear. I'm going to sign up again. You know, like it's just, it's, it's so hard to explain it, but all I can say is that I get the best visuals. I had one client whose heritage is all Russian and I spirit ended up giving me all of her grandma's as these Russian nesting dolls. And they kept pulling out messages. And like I had one rating where everyone was in a spiral moving out and it was just like hundreds and hundreds. Of just spirit, just there to hold her. Cause she was in a crisis and they were like, we're right here. And we're holding you. Like, I see like spirit doing this. Like we're holding you, like, we're rocking you. Like we are holding you. And like, I have like this whole reading where, um, people were like frolicking naked through a field and they were like, just be free, just be free. And I was like, all of a sudden your spirit guides are a bunch of hippies. I don't know. I get these visual. That are never the same. And they're so unique to the person that I'm reading for. And if I'm like, what is happening, you don't have to carry this for me to even admit this because I'm like, you know, I got the whole witch wound getting burned at the stake thing. Like, you know, I literally in a dream the other night I was talking to my friend, Stephanie, I need to call her and tell her about this. She picked me up in a limit. And she's like telling me this message that was being given to me in my dream. And I was like, people are gonna think I'm mad because this is what we do to women who are healers and prophets and preachers. There's that beautiful song. The High Women sing "The High Women's Song," it's an archetype from throughout history of like a witch and a preacher and a freedom writer and somewhat. It's beautiful, but the context of the song is that we come back over and over and over again, and that you will never eliminate us, even when you try, it's a beautiful song. And it's the fact that I'm able to even have this conversation with you, Amy and Nancy, you would have, you could have knocked me over with a feather. If you would've told me, this is my last five years ago. I would've been like, uh, no. Did you always have an ability to see things? What triggered you going to take these lessons? I've always been magic, always. Like I've always been able to like the first dead person I actually saw was my dad. He came and told me to take care of my mom and, and I very distinctly remember. And so I've always had the feeling or the vision that I could, I used to make little magic birds nest out of grass in the backyard, like all over the place. And then all of a sudden birds would just come and nest in them. Like, you know, I was like, I didn't think that was actually going to work, you know, and the quail would come and get him. My nest was awesome. Not my expectation, but there was so I've always felt magic. I have my. I can connect people. Like I, when I listened to people speak, I go, oh, okay, you need this person and this person and this person and this person. And that is one of the magical things that I do is I connect people to that, to other people I'm a web Weaver. But what spurred me to go work with Eileen and, and be taught was that I had some very large intuitive hits about some really big things that happens. And it scared me. And I had had a friend of mine say, you know, you really, you need to understand this more and you, what you're what's happening is you're being called into. Understanding your own particular brand of magic and what you do and listening to your intuition because you see things very differently. And the other thing she said to me is that back in the early days of Christianity like tenth, we're talking 10th, 11th century days, there were groups of women that would navigate between the pagans and the Christians. So they were the bridge between the two. There wasn't such a separation. And she said, that's just, you, you are the bridge builder. You go back and forth and that's who you are. And that's who you're meant to be. And stop thinking. You have to be one thing or the other. And that was actually a huge part of my coaching with Susan was I was like, if people find out that I am both a Christian, I love Jesus. Social Justice Jesus is my favorite Jesus. And like that I love Jesus. That I do magic and I read taro and I channeled dead people. Either the witches are going to hate me because I love Jesus. And I believe deeply in the. Or they're going to kick me off the pulpit at church, and I'm not going to be able to preach anymore because I'm a woman. And in fact, my priest, at one point, he's like, can you stop with the witchcraft thing? And I was like, no, not really. And then I started telling him about how the pagans used to be bridge builders and all this stuff. And he found a paper like a booklet that he had from a researcher in Scotland who had researched those with. Yeah, thank you Jesus. Right after I told them about this and he's like, you're not, I was like, see, I told you, like, there's nothing wrong with me. And I thought, for sure, no, one's gonna hire me. No, one's gonna want to learn from me. And all of a sudden y'all like, these women are coming to me and they're like, I love Jesus too. And on totally. Which I'm like. Here. I thought I was coming up with this innovative hashtag Christian, which no, I was not, no, you can follow hashtag Krisha, which on Instagram. And I was like, oh my gosh, we're everywhere. I was like, whoa. Cause you know, trained by misogyny and patriarchy that you have to pick a thing. And actually when I did my dissertation, my dissertation was about how women in rural California navigate religious stigma to get contracept. And it's, uh, you know, I did all these interviews with women to ask them how they navigated religious stigma and slut-shaming to get contraception. And it was all based on the Madonna-Whore binary that you are supposed to be a Virgin until you are married and then you are supposed to be a whore. We have a psychotomy that we live with that Virgin whore dichotomy that of course started in the Bible with Eve. And that binary is what keeps us in our place as women. And so it's that same binary that says you can be this, or you can be this, but you can never be both of those things. It's why there's this huge joke in the gay community by now gay later. Right? It's why it was so hard for me to sit. I had to pick, right? Like, oh, if I'm with women, I'm a lesbian. But if I men with men, I'm straight, which I'm not. And you know, like we put people in these boxes and we categorize everyone. It's the thing I was talking about with being Native American. Like either you're native, you got to know what percentage you are of Native American. And I'm sitting here going, but I know these things. That I have found out only in the last six months or prep spiritual practices that were handed down by my tribe, that I just know that I didn't know that I knew until like I read a paper on it. Like we put ourselves in these categories and say, this is who you are and you have to be this way, your whole life. And we're not, I mean, look at all this work you all are doing with Passionistas. Yeah. The stories you all are telling and the diversity of thinking that you are tapping it. It's amazing. Passionistas: Talk about the importance of leading with intuition and just following your feelings. Melissa: I think it goes beyond knowing what you want. Cause most of my clients actually don't have a clue what they want, right? Like they're like, I don't know what I'm doing, but here I am. Most people who join rebel sport are like, I don't know what this is exactly, but I just. Like, I don't know what I'm doing here, but here I just felt compelled and I was like, oh, good. You fit. Perfect. So I think some of it is thinking about we all this externalized information about who we're supposed to be. I remember when I was getting divorced from my ex-wife and I kept calling my psychic, like I, like, I was text messenger. I was like, what's going to happen next. What's going to happen next. What's next. And she's like, you already know. And I'm like, I don't like that, man. I need you to tell me, right? So we go to other people to get information. And what I do when I'm working with my clients is I'm like, here's the information. Now you have to take it and decide what resonates with you and what you're going to leave behind, because we could go to other people all day long to try and get more information. But if we don't listen to our hearts and we don't listen, not just our intuition, but our hearts that say, Hey, How about, we just love ourselves more today. If we don't have more self-compassion for ourselves and the things we want to do, then we're not going to go out and do the things we are here to do. I was listening to Meghan Waterson is an author. She wrote a really great book called Mary Magdalen revealed about the gospels. If Mary Magdalen, the lost gospels of Mary Magdalene. It's so amazing, y'all. She talks about how the body is the soul's reason for being here. So without the body, the soul can't come in. Right. And if each one of us in these bodies, as I'm looking at my little kiddos, they're two completely different souls, right? Three, actually, because I have an older one, but I'm not looking at her right now because she's in college. Thank God. As I look at my kids, as I look at the kids, when I used to teach preschool, as I look at each one of these little individual humans and us as adults. We are each here with a purpose. We are each here with a purpose on purpose and we have to listen to that purpose, no matter how bananas, it sounds, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us feel. No matter how mundane we think it is, it's still our purpose. And that's why we're here. And we can avoid it, which makes us sick a lot of the time. Right? Whether it makes us this buyer, body, mind, spirit, this concept of reconnecting to ourselves because we get disconnected after we're about six and we start going to public school, we start going to school, we get disconnected from our intuition. Cause you know, we gotta, you gotta sit in that chair. You gotta listen to the teacher who knows everything. And that's when we stopped. To everything around us. And so if we get back to this idea that we know what it is, it was me when I was six and building bird's nest in the backyard and just laying there and just humming along and singing and, you know, just whatever come on in little birds. Cause I really loved the birds. I mean, I'm Dr. Melissa Bird who doesn't love the birds. So really thinking about those things that before they were yelled out of us, beaten out of us, taken away from us. Patriarchal you were removed from us. What was that thing? We all have it and it's still there. Sometimes it's just a little more distant than we'd like it to be. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Project Podcast and our interview with Dr. Melissa Bird. To learn more about her Misfit Magic Hour, one-on-one coaching and masterclass series, visit NaturalBornRebel.com. Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women-owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Get $45 worth of free goodies with a one-year subscription using the code WINTERGOODIES. And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast. So you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.  

The following is my conversation with Adam Argyle, CSS Developer Advocate for Google Chrome.Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/xEyJ6LY7DKIThe conversation covers a quite a few topics that are relevant in the webdev and web design industries: UI complexity cliffs, DX vs UX, Self Disruption, and what Web Design Tooling could be.Along the way we touch on what OpenUI is, Adam's Deferred Inputs proposal, the 4 Jobs of Developer Experience, Thoughtleading for Good from Emily Freeman, Ilya Grigorik, and Dion Almaier, and Adobe vs Figma vs Webflow!Links:  Button tweet https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1450333133300064259 https://open-ui.org/ https://jasonformat.com/application-holotypes/ https://siliconangle.com/2021/09/29/devops-dummies-author-emily-freeman-introduces-revolutionary-model-modern-software-development-awsq3/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar Ilya Grigorik Perf.now talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtIfVPtN6io Visbug https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/visbug/cdockenadnadldjbbgcallicgledbeoc?hl=en https://web.dev/learn/ Timestamps:00:00:00 Cold open00:01:05 Complexity Cliffs and the Reusable Button Problem00:03:28 OpenUI00:04:32 DevRel vs Personal work00:05:52 DRY vs Design Systems00:07:10 Building in Phases00:08:04 Thought Leading for Good00:10:33 Learning00:14:13 The Surprising Complexity of Tabs00:17:12 What is Open UI?00:19:59 Hot Take: Deferred Inputs00:23:40 Cathedral vs Bazaar00:28:01 Illya Grigorik: Head/Torso/Tail00:32:45 UX vs DX00:45:51 4 Jobs of DX00:50:33 Self Disruption00:54:50 Adobe vs Figma vs Webflow01:01:04 VisBug01:05:05 Shameless PlugsTranscript swyx: Alright So the first thing we're talking about is ui complexity cliffs what's on your mind what was his first on your on your list. Adam Argyle: yeah you had a tweet the other day that was i'm at my fourth startup or something like this and we're pressing buttons again like, how s it 2021. swyx: And by guys Adam Argyle: Are popping up i needing refactoring or something like How are they not solved and. Adam Argyle: i'm sure you had threads of people that have their ideas there and mine was it's a omplexity cliff it's the first introduction, where you as a front end ui person who actually. Adam Argyle: is like goingto go build out all this matrix of states that a button needs that it lands on you it's like you've been in the car using a shifter this whole time using a steering wheel this whole time and then someone said hey. Adam Argyle: Go change the steering wheel out and you're like oh that's just a component just a single use like that things totally only got like one attachment right, and then you walk up to it and you start working on it you'd like. Adam Argyle: To see just like really integrated into the system. Adam Argyle: And or whatever right, you have these like discovery moments with it and you realize it's much more complex than it is in a button just does that buttons like yeah well let's allow an icon to be on our button and you're like okay left and right. Adam Argyle: sides can be I can have both sides because you could have a shopping cart with a little drop down arrow. Adam Argyle: Oh man Okay, and you have to have dark mode you better have this and that and that the matrix like i've seen the of states, is what I mean by this complexity cliff like it's just not visible from the surface, it looks all innocent. Adam Argyle: And then you go map it like if you mapped out everything you need it's it's a lot, like the CSS alone that it takes to have like a custom button and the design system is absurd it's absurd, but at the same time I love it anyway. swyx: So this is the tweet and question and honestly like this is this is genuine because. swyx: yeah I had that to Sigma away, where I had my first front end job and then modify and now it's immoral same stuff again and all did you handle disabled Oh, is it a link, or is it a button. swyx: And it was interesting was also just the replies like Nicole from Google So what does she do she like. Adam Argyle: beats I worry record directly. Adam Argyle: These days, she was on frameworks and she's now shifted to ui and sort of like how did she empower people to build flexible and fluid interfaces on the web. Adam Argyle: And that's why she points to open your eyes it's like a community for that, but anyway that i'm part of her team because i'm I work on similar things. swyx: Okay yeah and so like you know, first of all I didn't I didn't expect this to reach anyone in Google. swyx: But then also like the Web components people reached out to me and they're like how come work a foreign service officer for you and i'm like it's not about the tech. swyx: it's more about like understanding the specs of what people wanted people not agreeing what a button should do. Adam Argyle: yeah. Adam Argyle: yeah Google cloud had had too many. Adam Argyle: They had them in multiple frameworks in the same. Adam Argyle: repo right being like just because they grew so fast or whatever like your project always gets out of hand and all of a sudden yeah you have more than one button. Adam Argyle: which some people have enough time or England one, how are they going to wrinkle two or three and built in different frameworks right you could your islands architecture with buttons you're just like oh snap touch mean any button from any framework just shows up in an island. swyx: that's an interesting discussion is that a big. swyx: Is the islands architecture, a big discussion within Google, or because I always have hard I have trouble separating Jason from Jason Miller, who wrote the article architecture markers. swyx: When is he talking in his own personal capacity, or when is he saying like No, this is something we're tight with thinking about a Google. Adam Argyle: Oh, in my opinion Jason and I are pretty straight shooters about our own stuff like we work for Google and chrome and we love our job, and we want to represent chrome well and do all the things our job want us to do, but we have this like I don't know where our own personal opinion like. swyx: jake Archibald as to he. Adam Argyle: he's working on a lot of his own stuff we kind of balance, both I mean Jason definitely does things internally that he might not have chosen to go do if he just could choose whatever he wants to do. Adam Argyle: But that doesn't mean that's what he's going to go pitch outside of Google and the islands architectures. Adam Argyle: yeah This is just sort of the micro friends evolution into let's eventually docker eyes every component and then manage them with communities in the front end right we'll get there, I don't know. Adam Argyle: yeah. swyx: Well, so the this discussion of the reusable button and the ui complexity cliff makes me wonder because there's a lot of discussion about how dry is overrated you know. swyx: We should we should write everything twice and sometimes if you're just customizing it so often you're reusing it so much maybe just don't reuse code just just copy and paste and then that makes it easy to the really easy to modify the only thing that. swyx: That goes wrong with that so whenever you need to do a global update then you'd run into trouble, but how often do you really need to do that. Adam Argyle: Right isn't that what the super RAD typescript refactor button is for like that's why you typed your whole thing, so that you could refactor across something globally, I mean this is a value prop of typescript right. Adam Argyle: If you are, you know, employing it that way, on your project but yeah I think that's a really good point, though, is that sometimes you don't need to build a mega button yeah. Adam Argyle: yeah mega buttons get built and then mega buttons fall down. swyx: And also wonder if it's like. swyx: If it should be gated by number of people working on the project, so we had at my first company. swyx: Three front end developers and we were building both the design system and the APP. swyx: And I was just like maybe we should build the APP and forget the design system. Adam Argyle: Okay, this is actually something i've said multiple times is that. Adam Argyle: projects and people are in phases, a startup is in a phase. Adam Argyle: And in your first phase where you're in the creation state, you should not be in typescript you should not be hardening all of your stuff with hundred percent test coverage and you should be not be making a design system which you need to do. Adam Argyle: Is build a really good experience that's messy and expressive. Adam Argyle: And then go hard and all the things that are tried and. Adam Argyle: True, because you can't predict it all, and if you try to sit down and predict it all and. Adam Argyle: and build this like perfect thing from the start you'll just never going to get to the point at which it should have as fast as you can it's weird we think we move faster with all of these rules, and all this stuff but we end up moving way slower. Adam Argyle: And so yeah i'd say phase two of your company. Adam Argyle: let's say you have success in your sustainable and it's time to like rethink something, because you can need to grow, the team by 10 or 15 or whatever. Adam Argyle: Go ahead and spend a few months and and refactor and harden and create the components that are obvious like and don't go micromanager design system okay wait i'm getting wrapped up sorry okay anyway. swyx: No, I think, look like you have this i've seen you do this rant a couple times. swyx: I think he needs to slap a fancy label on it and then put it put into a nice graphic and go like this is the way that you should do things because I have you seen i'm Emily freeman. swyx: At aws she did she basically had some issues with the software, the traditional software development lifecycle where it's like a very waterfall approach and shows you V shaped it into like a. swyx: Like a circular concentric circle grid with the six dimensions and it made a lot of sense for some people. swyx: But that at least encoded her opinion and she could give it a name and and she she said, like this is the way you do things now, and she had whole spiel on it, but like. swyx: Sometimes it's better to sell an idea or like a workflow if you give it a name and you put some put some diagrams on it and make it a thing, rather than repeating the rent every time. Adam Argyle: yeah and so yeah, this is the phases ranger mentioning like yeah. swyx: yeah catchy acronym or like you know, whatever. swyx: And and yeah I mean you know sea islands architecture was a catchy catchy name for it, you know. swyx: It was yeah was your last name, he had for. Adam Argyle: A holiday types right, it was holotype. swyx: hollow times, I never heard that word before. Adam Argyle: So cool yeah. Adam Argyle: that's what that's what Jason called it in an article, he was, oh no he was saying, your APP is one of these holiday types. Adam Argyle: And if you were yes certain holotype he could lead well to you know, an islands architectural river. swyx: yeah very good so Basically, this is like part of my long running a study on how the thought leader or thought leading for fun and profit, you know there's like sort of the cynical thought leading, which is like hey I want you to buy my ebook. swyx: But then there you can also follow me for for benefit if, like you really have a cause that you just really want to align people on, you have to package, it in a message that that people can spread for you, instead of you, having to do all the work. Adam Argyle: Totally yeah I think you're doing a good job with that being a thought leader, by the way, I very much enjoy your thoughts. swyx: I don't know what i'm meeting people to. Adam Argyle: I mean, I think that's what's fun as you're on an exploration constantly digging. Adam Argyle: And going to these archives and you're just kind of shooting it out, as it happens, and honestly that's kind of all, I do with my CSS tips i'm building stuff every day, almost all day and so i'm like here's it I just did this thing this is cool I think anyway. Adam Argyle: Yes, what else will and. swyx: I will say, like the thing about CSS like no one ever feels like you know all of it. swyx: Do you think that's a problem. Adam Argyle: No, I think that's how every language feels. swyx: So i've been trying to. swyx: push back on this little because I think being able to say, this is the entire map like Okay, you know, there is a spec right. swyx: And it's not an infinite list it's a finite list, and you can you can at least kind of draw like here's the world map, you will never visit. swyx: The entire world, but at least you know, like okay here's a comment here there's a comment there I haven't gone there yet, but it's there when I need it. swyx: At least like having boundaries around like Okay, the world ends ends here and. swyx: I think that's an interesting way to think about like learning or evangelizing something, and this is relevant for me, because at my job. swyx: We have a fairly complex system, and no one had ever enumerated the features until I went through and just went like Okay, we have 30 features and once you know these 30 features that's about it for the system. swyx: and being able to say that's it. swyx: And, and having an end to your learning I think it's a really interesting concept to have. Adam Argyle: yeah docs kind of give you that sense right you land on docs and you're like I have the world in my hands every API call and every function is. Adam Argyle: articulated here with every parameter yeah and I definitely see where you're going, I think that can help someone. Adam Argyle: Get perspective of the language that they're jumping into but there's like surprises right like you learn javascript for who cares how long and then all of a sudden someone goes, you heard of functional programming you. Adam Argyle: Like what and then you go look at you like, what are you doing with javascript and then it will. swyx: Stop. Adam Argyle: you're bringing it to infinity right and then like typescripts the same way you're like I thought I was like I liked were new like javascript and. Adam Argyle: In typescript just tells me all day that I have no idea what I know, and you know, like. Adam Argyle: CSS is the same way i've been studying and building things in it for a long time and I I also am a human, you know some of these things are so big that I can't memorize every map and territory. swyx: So I revisit in and. Adam Argyle: So I think what happens with experience is that you know, like okay every programming language has a moment where you're banging your head against it, you know whether it's FLEX box or it's. Adam Argyle: You know, some extends in typescript or something that's extending extend extend and you're just like lost in the extension world like in these scenarios you eventually emerge. Adam Argyle: Right you bust out. Adam Argyle: In your head comes popping out and you get a breath of air and you're like. Adam Argyle: I have defeated it like and what I think professional developers are they're just seasoned at defeating all the little things in so much that they're now in a perspective, where they expect things to pop up that they're not going to know. Adam Argyle: But be they've if they run into things that they run into before. Adam Argyle: They don't have the same hour or four hours or two days that it takes to solve it, they just walk right over it, because they're like oh that was in that territory over here. Adam Argyle: I remember like two years ago, when I had to go there, like i'll just go there, I don't remember everything about it. Adam Argyle: But i'll go read it and study and be like oh yeah that was it okay and i'll put that back in the 70s, like every time he's intersection observer i'm like I know in your section observer and then i'm like I don't remember the syntax I gotta go look it up so. Adam Argyle: Anyway, yeah. swyx: And they basically, I just want to copy and paste intersection observer code and just give me like the three or four design patterns that work and that's about it that's that's all people want out of it. Adam Argyle: Section observer, I mean I think people want the matrix I think they want to stick a thing in the back of their neck. Adam Argyle: And, just like CSS I know it, I will now command every box in the way that i've ever desired. swyx: yeah. Adam Argyle: Briefly, though, before we get off of complexity cliffs well the first components that reminded me of complexity cliffs was the tabs component. Adam Argyle: And we've been talking about that, so we talked about Nicole already, and so one of the things we're trying to do is make tabs on the web. Adam Argyle: easier and in my studies, I have found that it's a massive complexity cliff like there's 100 variants of what tabs are more than that, over the years we've seen thousands of variants of tabs. Adam Argyle: And they all have little niche features some little niche features, make a tabs feel like a carousel some tabs kind of feel like an accordion. Adam Argyle: Some tabs feel like those paper tabs you had in a binder and they all have this like little thing and they all have different accessibility implications and usually. Adam Argyle: that's like the deciding factor, at least, like open ui they're like okay here's what tabs are tabs are basically this accessibility ux as a foundation, like the skeleton of the thing works like this, but I go look in the wild. Adam Argyle: And I see all of these different tabs and i'm excited by it and it kind of frustrates other people, because they want to go harden the pattern right, this is what. Adam Argyle: The button is trying to do it's like hard and a pattern and so people want to harden these patterns, they they look so obvious to harden and then I go research and I basically called him Kara tabs now i'm like oh tablet cells you mean oh CARA tabs. Adam Argyle: you're like no tabs. Adam Argyle: i'm like care tabs. Adam Argyle: Because the variations are so fun and exciting and I actually think that's what the web is excelling at is this weirdness is that. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so, but the complexity cliff is very clear in tabs where there is really no single way to build one that would fulfill every tabs component needs that's out there. Adam Argyle: Like a lot of tabs have nothing to do with swiping when I think that's mandatory on like mobile you gotta be able to swipe between tabs. Adam Argyle: we've been trained that way for like five years but they would disagree, like the open ui organization because that's just not part of the. Adam Argyle: float anyway, so what i'm getting at is these complexity cliffs make it really hard to harden things and i'm at a point where i'm trying to study which ones are on which side of the cliff Sean that's what I want to know. Adam Argyle: Because the ones that are on the side that it just goes steep downhill I think it's okay to let those be free ship primitives and let people be weird. Adam Argyle: Let people build all these fun different exciting tabs like I don't i'm not that interested in that, but we could move into different inputs, if you want as that that next topic. swyx: I have a two things to ask you, before you do this so one thing you seem to have a image in your head about complexity cliffs have you visualize this because I feel like it's an analogy, that is right for visualization. Adam Argyle: know I mean it'd be an iceberg you looking at a button and it looks like a simple button on top, and then you look under the water and you're like holding this thing has like request animation frame loops in it, or something you're like I just did not predict that. swyx: yeah I think I think some visuals will be nice to for people to really is totally get it. swyx: And then, secondly, could you introduce for those who would like i've dug around open ui it seems like a basically it tries to be a browser vendor agnostic. swyx: spec have you here's how here's extensions to standard html well how about you do, how about you help me define like what is open ui who runs it, what is the near term like should people pay attention is now is it's just an r&d phase like what what's uh what phases it isn't it. Adam Argyle: Sure yeah and you know you should have unit on because she's a member of the open ui. Adam Argyle: cabinet, I have no idea anyway it's a Community group it operates like a Community group. Adam Argyle: it's led by I think Greg whitworth maybe Brian cartel also. Adam Argyle: Dave Rupert is on it also he does a lot of presentations Dave Rupert is a he's pro tabs not pro tab excel he has a spicy accordion that he's made that is basically tabs but it's. Adam Argyle: Not tabs it's a spicy accordion anyway okay so that's the sort of things that sometimes get talked about it open your eyes, but their goal is to. Adam Argyle: move faster as an agnostic implementation team, then what browsers would do and how can they operate like how the community groups do for CSS but do it for components. Adam Argyle: And so they have one that's like a recent success, I think, and it's taken a long time to get there, which is the POP over component, if you heard about the POP over component. swyx: know if I can pull it up, you can tell me about it. Adam Argyle: awesome it's cool it's classic you mouse or you focus into a link and you get a pop up right. swyx: This is it, this one. Adam Argyle: yeah. Adam Argyle: And so, this took a long time to get through it has tons of you can see that they are very look it's an editor's draft Oh, they have three and editors draft interesting, so the select element is also there, I know that my working on that one so something that's sustainable select. Adam Argyle: And I bet you that dependent on the pop up. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so i'm not a super pro hear about how they operate, but I do know that their goals are to make accessible well defined open source community group driven web components, I think their web components. Adam Argyle: And yeah and eventually I think their goal is to have those things accepted into browser specs and how browsers implement them natively maybe i'm not really sure. Adam Argyle: Where that goes from there, oh look, you can see mason freed on there for pop up he's the Google or who's doing a lot of implementation and he's on the group there to Melanie richards awesome. Adam Argyle: yeah it's got a great crew of cats that are like hacking on it, they they're diligent they seem passionate and i'm not a Member. Adam Argyle: Because i'm kind of. Adam Argyle: I don't know if we need more primitives. Adam Argyle: Sean. Adam Argyle: I want to, it is a heartache and i've talked to Brian and a couple other people about what look like i'm actually. Adam Argyle: So this is why the fruit inputs as an interesting conversation. Adam Argyle: I like to swing for the fences i'd like to swing a lot bigger. Adam Argyle: Okay, so, for example, let's say open ui or someone else and open you I seriously, I admire them so much, I think there is a really important and impressive thing that they're doing so I think i'm also just intimidated, but anyway. Adam Argyle: What I would like to suggest is okay consider the calendar so maybe a calendar component gets you know standardized so you could customize it you don't just get the 20 year old dinky one it's in your browser I. Adam Argyle: hate that one it drives me nuts and like she's the leads there's No one. Adam Argyle: else and. swyx: there's one that's worse than that it's the number number input. swyx: You know, with a small. swyx: tiny arrows. swyx: Oh, my. Adam Argyle: God seriously I don't know someone on a netbook with like one of those. Adam Argyle: mini mouse's or something anyway. Adam Argyle: Okay, so imagine this Sean This is my crazy idea called deferred inputs you put an input in there type equals date and you put an attribute called deferred on it, and what the browser does when they user temps that input. Adam Argyle: Is they broker a relationship between that webpage and a third party widget. Adam Argyle: And a third party experience, because what I want when I click on a calendar widget is not just a stupid calendar Sean I want my events on there. Adam Argyle: I want to know if what i'm picking is going to interrupt or something if i'm booking dinner I need to know. Adam Argyle: All of these different cases I want to know my stuff in there, but I don't want the webpage to know anything about it so imagine for a second that we went to the APP store MAC os and we installed. Adam Argyle: A calendar component called Google calendar who cares or maybe it's icon right account makes sense for safari to prompt. Adam Argyle: So you get these different inputs, with a broker, since the request to this APP and says this user is requesting a date All we want is a string format it like this, give them an experience that's rich and set and has a session and you're logged into. Adam Argyle: And let them pick a date and then we'll just get the date back so the date input is still just a static text input, but the browser brokered a relationship to third party. Adam Argyle: developers who can create specific and robust experiences for these inputs so i'm not talking we just, you know as a group. Adam Argyle: come up with a cool date picker that people can pass custom properties to to silent, I think that's a great stopgap but i'd love to see us like make a rich. Adam Argyle: Do picking a date is a rich experience moment it's something that people can excel at and show you how beautiful, it is like imagine sunrise like that APP they made the calendar thing that just like disrupted every time they made one and then imagine someone else. Adam Argyle: Now you had choices Sean you had choices for your date input as a user that's what I want to see, I want to see users, having the ability and I want developers to build a compete for the. Adam Argyle: Creation of those widget experiences I think browsers have been sitting on it and it drives me NUTS they're crappy and it looks like they don't care so just open it up. Adam Argyle: Just broker the relationship to a bunch of developers that want to get a $2 components, so that you can have a session logged in calendar picker like. Adam Argyle: in any way, so a lot of these inputs that are a lot of these components that we're waiting for. Adam Argyle: that are more robust that we need more out of like some of our primitives i'm like don't just give us some new crappy primitive that looks like crap. Adam Argyle: I just i'm tired of those like give us an opportunity and an open up the open up the industry to a new monetization flow like you're basically creating third party developer anyway, whatever Sean I think i've pitched it enough what, what do you think is that crazy. swyx: So I need to clarify one more thing so first of all, have you written this up anywhere. Adam Argyle: This is a slides I have like a little presentation and i'm giving it to people it's just it's pretty much can we find it somewhere. swyx: Just just so people can follow up if they want. Adam Argyle: I think it's just a random idea I have songs and like you know. swyx: I mean I if you know if you you believe this so. swyx: What this this kind of conversation always reminds me of the cathedral versus the bizarre. swyx: You know that Nice that a Fred brooks this is this is old school software development right like, how do you design it ecosystem, do you want, do you want to say, like I do it for you, because I know best, or do you want to say I don't know best, and that everyone just have it out. swyx: And so open your eyes kind of the cathedral and they're like Okay, a little research everything and then we'll we'll pick the best way, that is, the superset of everything and then. swyx: The bizarre it's kind of like this different input approach where it's just like I don't know and i'll just give you a single extension point and you guys go nuts. Adam Argyle: yep that's exactly what it's basically just be what I call them. Adam Argyle: Because they have an android or an intent the. Adam Argyle: input basically admitted intent. Adam Argyle: And it says, who can handle the intent right. Adam Argyle: And all these developers now have Apps living on your operating system that the browser can broker the intent, was it says. Adam Argyle: it's just like how intense it's actually extremely modeled after, then the mobile experience of. swyx: Intense. Adam Argyle: Because I love that experience it's really nice you're just like yeah look at all my fun custom stuff I have they can handle where my image goes like that's really nice. Adam Argyle: And yeah we should have a color picker like that, like give me the opportunity to click on a color and put in I bring my own color picker to the table chrome. swyx: You know so. swyx: I don't know yours yeah. swyx: Is this the user so. Adam Argyle: there's a few personas yeah there's user. swyx: APP developer, and then the user viewing the site so each viewer has like their own experience of this thing okay. Adam Argyle: They got. Adam Argyle: A utility built of personalized widgets in their browser so anywhere their browsers logged in and. swyx: How many of these are there. Adam Argyle: I mean a perfect kind of labeled a few here. Adam Argyle: yeah calendar auto fill payment. Adam Argyle: photo picker and file picker oh photo picker and file picker already done, is what this says in my deck I haven't looked at my deck and like a year. Adam Argyle: Because yeah if you think about photo picker. Adam Argyle: Well, I guess, on mobile it's different but on desktop it's not right on mobile when you click on a file uploader you click on some things allows you to upload you get to fulfill it with your own choice of an APP your phone. Adam Argyle: Your personal stuff just needs to return an image right, and then the browser doesn't have to know to care about the whole experience that it took you to find it because you went back three years on June 24. Adam Argyle: To find the hamburger that you were looking for right like anyway yeah so auto fill would be an awesome one and payment like why can't I just install a third party payment installation thing and. swyx: When I so i'm. Adam Argyle: Pay yeah invokes my own experience. swyx: Well, what about security like if it's a third party widget and it's payment like i'm giving you my card details. Adam Argyle: User installed it, and so there, hopefully they're trusting what they installed and that the page itself is only getting results back so it's like the same static results they would have got before. Adam Argyle: So the page doesn't get to know anything about the third party experience there's like a very it's just a message that's going to get passed back and forth him. swyx: And do you think so, one example of this, that is done in user land is essentially password managers. swyx: Like a right they they override all the password fields and then they've given their own little things why can't it just be done like that. Adam Argyle: Oh so like an extension model. Adam Argyle: sounds good to me so yeah you could as a developer go build a whole bunch of really awesome you know extensions built on the extension version three manifest and deploy them across all the browsers and. Adam Argyle: deliver a unique logged in experience for color picking and sure yeah maybe you could intercept those clicks and invoke your own overlay ui actually makes sense to me. swyx: Okay got it so it sounds like you know of those things that you missed it those are inputs. swyx: There are a lot of things there a lot of components that are not inputs. swyx: And I guess open you I would be involved. Adam Argyle: Like tabs carousels pop overs yeah. swyx: So you're not in conflicts, you know. Adam Argyle: I don't think so yeah. Adam Argyle: yeah Okay, and both can coexist, they could create a new date picker and that should be the default, we need better date pickers so better default components anyway so yeah i'm like this isn't me trying to stop them it's like I just think there's a whole opportunity for competition, like. Adam Argyle: yeah and it could be cool yeah. swyx: One one last thing that comes up when when we talk about image speakers. swyx: Did you ever see that talk by ilya regard about. swyx: The image picker up like file size optimizer. Adam Argyle: I don't think so tell me all about it. swyx: So he had a fantastic talk, which, like really shaped the way I think about so okay oh God, I can give me a SEC to pull this up Okay, because. swyx: I don't I don't think i'm gonna do this justice. swyx: Unless I literally have it up. swyx: What is his Twitter handle he's not super active on Twitter. Adam Argyle: it'll yet some. swyx: I Google org. Adam Argyle: Oh, I was wrong. swyx: Okay, all right. swyx: All right, here we go so. swyx: This is where this is where I shouted it out, he had this concept of the. swyx: The head the torso and the tail. swyx: and swyx: It was like, how do we solve. swyx: How do you solve image performance forever right like you can do some fancy stuff with like. swyx: Your image optimizing cdn you can do all these like source set things no one's going to do it, it just is too complex like yeah it's cool and you should feel bad if you don't do it right, but also there's just too much to learn. Adam Argyle: Serving images is very hard yeah it's hard. swyx: So, like he was fee fantastically broke it down to like okay so he's he's at this performance now conference right and he said. swyx: Okay yeah here we go. swyx: I like I just I just love how clearly stated this if you want to solve the image problem once and for all the cost should be free, the number of choices should be zero the tools must do the work not require work. swyx: Right now, the tools that we're being given require more work hey the default sucks but just to be backward compatible here's a source at thing with like five different options and hey you got to do image processing on your own good that. swyx: That requires work, so people don't do it right, so the kind of person that goes to a performance now conference that watches performance videos in their free time, that is what he calls the head. swyx: That and i'm not finding a slide but essentially like there's a there's an adoption curve right there's there's the really like performance oriented performance minded people. swyx: who are going to adopt all the best practices they're going to listen to your target have read your blog posts, then the torso they're like they're just you know, following whatever the. swyx: Body says, and then and then there's a long tail that just will never read anything they'll just do whatever this is easiest So you see, if you want real impact, you have to address the torso under the tail not just the head, because the head. swyx: Has the time to this to learn all your stuff but that's not the problem, the problem is the rest of it, like everyone else. swyx: Sorry, I think i'm like doing doing things the job of. Adam Argyle: Now I think i'm following yeah. swyx: So so his proposal by the end of his talk, and this is like in 2019 was that okay all right image optimizing cdn too complicated set too complicated. swyx: Never just never upload a giant file that you never giant photo that you never need so he was like let's introduce an image uploaded a component that has image optimization built into that that point of upload so all points down the chain just never get there. swyx: I thought that was like that this I thought that was where you were going I don't know if you talk to them before about this. swyx: Okay. Adam Argyle: I have not. Adam Argyle: That kind of reminds me of ink ink uploader which I used I don't know, five years ago, or so it was kind of like early image X server but yeah you upload the biggest image, you had and then request it with one URL. Adam Argyle: And maybe some parameters on the URL and you get you could get a whole dynamics of the images back yes. Adam Argyle: And only had to deal with the one image tag and yeah yeah well that's the way forward motion. swyx: that's an image optimizing cdn. swyx: So you have to pay money for that and, of course, like you know that that. swyx: Costs of engineering resources, so he wanted to go a little bit more than that, I don't know how practical it was, but it was very convincing at the time. swyx: And you know I hope he I don't know if he's still a Google or not, but you know. Adam Argyle: He is yeah. swyx: He gets some sway in the design of this thing. Adam Argyle: Nice yeah I like that analogy, though, I think that works really good. swyx: Which is I mean it's so in a broader context of Dev developer tools and like designing for us versus the exercise next topic. swyx: yeah. swyx: I think about this a lot, which is that whenever we appear at conferences and we like dropping you blog posts and new feature and we just expect people to like. swyx: know about it and learn about it and adopt it like within a year, otherwise it's their fault not yours and i'm just like no people don't have time. swyx: Most people just want to know, like what the best practices they're going to do that and then they'll they'll move on with their day and that's about all the time that they have for you. swyx: And, and so, if we want to you know, improve user experience like we have to make it basically bring this for people to adopt the best practice. Adam Argyle: yeah so we can yeah do you want to start there like. Adam Argyle: yeah that's The goal of the phrase, or like that's like the. Adam Argyle: The the heartfelt meaningful good side of the phrase that dx can lead to good ux is the intent is there, which is that people want to deliver good ux and they're not wrong that good dx can deliver a portion or maybe a lot of ux. Adam Argyle: But I think that the phrase is kind of not doing itself a favor like it's it's kind of a short sighted view of what dx is versus a short sighted view of ux and i'm like. Adam Argyle: I don't even know why we're so okay so first off let's just say that to have dx it even could facilitate good ux someone had to teach the dx what good ux was like ux had to start it. Adam Argyle: In order, like be the initial cause for dx to exist, that it was knowledgeable to give you good ux so i'm like. Adam Argyle: wow is people think the dx just magically gives good you actually had to be written by somebody like the good ux was created and someone spent valuable time thinking about good ux. Adam Argyle: In order to bake it into something that could be shared better that then helped facilitate a workflow which is just like how like a bakery it would work right you just got like okay we've got all these processes they're working like this. Adam Argyle: And now we're going to always use this flower instead of have random flowers and we're always going to use this scoop or something like that, and you just start to like. Adam Argyle: harden these things over time, so that when new people join they don't have to go learn there's three scoops there's just one scoop now to choose from, and every time those decisions get made like they're made in a good faith that, like us, like the bakers, are trying to make more. Adam Argyle: You know muffins or something for everybody, like the ux is eating a muffin. Okay. Adam Argyle: That. Adam Argyle: Essentially you can. Adam Argyle: overdo it, just like in a design system, you can overdo it so where eventually maybe you make a factory maybe you've got you know, and this happens all the time and code we build tons of factories to stamp out web pages to stamp this out to stand we'd love our automation. Adam Argyle: And sometimes automation. Adam Argyle: All it does is harden one good ux choice and it might make subsequent ux choices harder. Adam Argyle: in any way so okay so then here i'm going to go back to like the like dx is so much more than providing good ux like there's so much more to it, like you can have an entire. Adam Argyle: day's worth of dx that never touches ux and that should be fine like you should be happy with that, because what you're trying to do is empower everyone after you. Adam Argyle: or whatever it is like I think it's valuable time so basically I think it's short sighted dx to think that it can only be valuable if it's affecting ux I don't think that even needs to. Adam Argyle: go away. Adam Argyle: And then. Adam Argyle: Right, I think dx it's like you could do anyway so dx can be entirely in a whole other sector of the organization and never changed the ux and I don't think that's bad. Adam Argyle: I think sometimes it can in consequently change ux and that's awesome sometimes it can intentionally do it, you know, maybe data, the data Center team over here. Adam Argyle: They switch to a different cluster system and now they're you know shaped 50 milliseconds off a request or whatever you're like cool the user might feel that or whatever. Adam Argyle: But then also ux it's short citing what ux is if you've ever met a ux designer. Adam Argyle: To them, the user experiences and how fast the milliseconds went down the wire, even though this is part of the user experiences how fast you got it to them. Adam Argyle: They spend weeks and months researching users to make informed decisions about ux. Adam Argyle: it's so to think that dx can just magically have all of that, I mean unless the designers are baking and they're the ones, creating the dx maybe dx is directly affecting us. Adam Argyle: But really I think ux starts with research it doesn't start with good dx you have to you have to know what good ux is spend time on it. Adam Argyle: and actually create it before you can then go harden it and make it like repeatable and shareable or whatever it is, and also ux is just so much more than. Adam Argyle: That moment the button downloaded and you pressed it so it's like belittling. Adam Argyle: The whole concept of ux and dx at the same time it's a comparison that doesn't even really matter like here's another thing too. Adam Argyle: Is you can have the worst dx in the world let's say you can only ssh into this one server you have no tools you're just with vim and it's like an. Adam Argyle: insane react project you don't even have web pack, you have to go edit the output of a bundle let's say that who knows. Adam Argyle: dude a determined ux person will do whatever it takes to make the ux good they'll go hack that code it doesn't matter the dx will matter, what matters is the desire that someone had. Adam Argyle: And you know, conversely, you could have like the best dx the entire world and deliver a button that says fart. Adam Argyle: Because the text in a button bro. Adam Argyle: is part of ux man there's ux writers that's All they do is provide text so maybe if you're dx or your button was so RAD that you could like. Adam Argyle: A new button and then you drop it in, and it has a whole suggestion of ux written content in it like I don't think you're really getting the full fledge. Adam Argyle: Delivery of ux because it's so contextual it's so subjective it's so human that. Adam Argyle: All you get from dx in terms of ux is anything that's on rails and anything you get from dx that can lead to good ux usually can because good ux sourced into the dx that then change the ux so I just don't. Adam Argyle: it's just like i'm like i'm not sure everyone's trying to say other than I think you know, which is, I said at the beginning i'm like I see the initial goal here, which is like hey if you have. Adam Argyle: really great tools, it can make it easier to slice some bread and put butter on it and then now you have slice butter way faster, you know, like look at us and we made a process for it, and now we can do 10 breads and 10 butters. Adam Argyle: In a parallel right we're gatsby and now we're doing parallel bread's buttered. Adam Argyle: Right until the designer says oh we're not using butter or new new butter and peanut butter and everyone's like Oh, we made a factory for that last process you're like dude users want peanut butter now too so. Adam Argyle: Are you have to update all the dx to match the new ux. Adam Argyle: So that's kind of what I see I think it's almost like ux is equal to dx which could trickle down to ux again early that's the intent, and so I just don't. Adam Argyle: know why we. Adam Argyle: don't talk about the full cycle and I don't know why we want to belittle the two concepts like ux is more than just developers. Adam Argyle: Building buttons and forms and flows and stuff like that there's a whole team of ux designers that they are literally fighting your company to have good ux. Adam Argyle: And I just that's why I think a lot of designers don't retweet the dx is better than us, or that dx will lead to good ux designers just know that they're at the table every day. Adam Argyle: arguing with somebody that they need to refactor this because it's not good user experience and the person over there is going move I see all your research, and I see you did user studies. Adam Argyle: I just can't allocate the resources and meanwhile they've got a team of 10 people increasing the dx of the backend system over here right and they're just not funding. Adam Argyle: The ux so anyway, I can just see like all these different sides to it and i'm. Adam Argyle: i'm just not it just doesn't do anyone to favor it's not doing dx a favor like it's not it, if anything, it kind of like makes dx look like the hero to I think that's my biggest issue with it, it makes dx look like it's The thing that lead to good ux i'm like. Adam Argyle: No, it doesn't it. Adam Argyle: Never anyway so i'm like it's not the hero. Adam Argyle: The hero here is. Adam Argyle: Having good ux like that's what everyone wants is, could you X dx steals the show and that freezing. Adam Argyle: And it's just so anyway i'm mostly annoyed with it and i'm like it's just it's based on like these couple of paths like people we look at this dx lead do that, like that's one path of 1000 that you'll take and building a product that has good ux. Adam Argyle: sure your dx lead to good ux there congratulations just don't praise that phrase like it's going to solve all of your ux problems. swyx: It is not. Adam Argyle: The responsible party for good choices ux focused individuals are the ones that make the good ux choices. Adam Argyle: and get funnel those through dx and background or whatever. Adam Argyle: So I just think it's missing the point and always. Adam Argyle: How do you feel. swyx: know why you know why we hear so much about it. swyx: it's because the ux people have nothing to sell you where's the dx people have something to sell you. swyx: there's a there's an economic incentive to drive things. Adam Argyle: yeah dx is the hottest phrase to get your product recognized right now that's for sure how. swyx: Do you think so, do you think the term is tarnished now you think it's so. No. swyx: No it's. Adam Argyle: tarnished to me, but no it's still hot, as ever, you kidding. swyx: it's my it's my it's my fault either mentally so my job titles literally had to develop experience. swyx: And I don't know if I want to. swyx: associate myself so closely with this thing. Adam Argyle: Oh, really, oh dear, I mean hey dude I associate myself with CSS how many people want to do that. swyx: I think it's amazing that would you that I think that una una or like my like I idolize you guys so much because. swyx: Oh no way be able to advocate for CSS Hello like. swyx: it's just it's just so first of all, you have to be good at, you have to be like really good at both of you are actually really great. swyx: But also just you're advocating for something that everyone can use so there's nothing to sell you it's just like you already have this and. swyx: Like 90% of you are terrible at it, or like you could be better, you know let's put it politically correctly, so I mean I think it's great I CSS will be around longer than both of us will be around, and I think it's. swyx: No one I don't know every everyone can always use a bit more CSS and their life. swyx: I need a CSS shirt, by the way. Adam Argyle: I could probably figure that out i'll send you a link later. swyx: it's just funny right like you know they're they're like 100 different js cons and like maybe I don't know if i've ever seen the CSS COM. Adam Argyle: There is yeah and I think. Adam Argyle: There was one of really popular one for five years and Europe and it's spread there was like once happening in other. Adam Argyle: continents, but it's I think kind of I don't know the conferencing is shaken up recently but yes. Adam Argyle: Yes, she's definitely underdog, and all this stuff. swyx: I mean I yeah so I mean I was really encouraged when he joins and then you started putting out a really good stuff and I just I think Google does something right when you when you hire developer relations, I don't know what it is, but. swyx: Every every person I see it's just stellar. Adam Argyle: To Dr Mayer dion has. swyx: I have. Adam Argyle: An emotion is he responsible addiction yeah he's the one who saw me. Adam Argyle: Like I anyway yeah he pretty much pulled me out of the team, I was at and Google and was like hey you want to do this over here and chrome and I was like I idolize you all I couldn't do that he's like you're one of us would you like to be like. Adam Argyle: Okay, and he totally believed in me and. Adam Argyle: gave me lots of chances and was and yeah i'm and I think there's lots of so he left recently a couple months. swyx: yeah shopify. Adam Argyle: shopify and you could tell he shattered people like there were people that were like dion was like. swyx: A. Adam Argyle: Different person he was someone I was emotionally. Adam Argyle: engaged with he has this amazing ability to listen and anyway, what what a great leader and manager, he was and he had he has some sort of skill I don't you know you'd have to ask him how he. swyx: knows asking. Adam Argyle: Someone and how we can judge people but yeah he's got a talent there. swyx: I you know I had so I went to boulder recently, and I think he is like just just outside builder or something and. swyx: I had lunch with him and he never he's so humble he never brings this up he's just like yeah I like I like tech like you know I think shopify school, you know he never talks about like how he runs. swyx: His Oregon how he how he thinks about hiring. swyx: Interesting guy interesting. Adam Argyle: Interesting guy and he just curious his candor so well. Adam Argyle: yeah but hey back to the dx says, like a job title, I do think it's still important, I just a and that's what i'm saying I don't think the phrase does your job, justice, like it's making dx sound like it's only valuable if it is impacting ux and i'm like that's not the case. Adam Argyle: You can integrate our developers to save hundreds of hours a week and and maybe never touches the ux and who cares you just still saved hundreds of ours, like, why is the value of dx somehow hinting. Adam Argyle: on its ability to hang on so we're getting more ranchi again why is yeah just doesn't like it's not doing it justice like it wants dx to be respected, and like it already is. Adam Argyle: So why push. Adam Argyle: This is like it's best moment to like. swyx: yeah whatever, so I think you know just just because you're you're interested in this i've been defining it in. swyx: In maybe like four ways, so the first this API design because. swyx: That is that every everything is downstream of like did you did you design the right abstraction right like the same thing that you're doing with different inputs and stuff like that. swyx: And then second of all docs for for that API right, you have to. swyx: be able to find it first of all, it needs to have full coverage everything that is in your API should be locatable and then it should be anticipatory like tell me what i'm going to need before I know about it, which is a high bar. swyx: But like. Adam Argyle: No, I like that's like visiting a docs page and it's already got my keys in it like I don't have to go find my keys it knows i'm writing. Adam Argyle: and looking at the docks and it. Adam Argyle: But yeah. swyx: To me that's just like template this template of docs I mean everyone can do that, you know, like it's. swyx: It is, it is, it is good people do do enjoy that but I always want to have an opinion, like Okay, you know you have like two required options and five not required options, but this is recommended in these situations, and this is only for power users tell me that. swyx: In the docs before before letting me go on configure it on my own so that's what i'm trying to do with our docs and then the last part is, if I have a done for you, the last word is. swyx: Three yeah right. swyx: Okay, so so there's there's developer relations, which is like traditional. swyx: Content creation is like teach me how to do stuff. swyx: Do tutorials do beaten, I mean. Adam Argyle: hype man. swyx: hype it up hype man yeah and then the last part is community which basically like do you have a place to go to ask questions and how how much you know. swyx: Like can you get a job in this is there, like a training is there, like career progression do I see myself identifying with this technology as a career like. swyx: There are lots of technologies in our lives there's only a certain technologies that we choose to call to like say like I am a developer, I am a reactor developer that that means something that's over and above just the the particular library and framework that you use. swyx: I don't know if I should do that I don't know if I should be so expensive and say like oh yeah communities part of this, too, but also it kind of is. Adam Argyle: It definitely is it's something that I tried and I still try to focus on by having open office hours doing the AMA is. Adam Argyle: I try to reach out and yeah that's why I do conferences, I like to do I don't think I can effectively do my job. Adam Argyle: If i'm not connecting to the Community, because otherwise i'm living in a bubble and i'm not putting my shoes on that are uncomfortable for me like I need to be constantly putting on shoes of other people to have my own perspective. Adam Argyle: shaped well and then it makes me a better educator It makes me better at all these other roles yeah. Adam Argyle: it's that it's included. swyx: it's my that's my map of developer experience so far and i'm trying to implement that. Adam Argyle: awesome that sounds very amicable and it sounds like you have four pillars and everything at Google ends up being in four pillars. Adam Argyle: So, congratulations on. swyx: Google the coming. swyx: weeks to come in threes I don't know. Adam Argyle: Three is a little more catchy huh yeah. swyx: Wait so what's an example of the thing is that that's four pillars at Google. Adam Argyle: let's see if I can I don't know if I could remember one right now but it's like anytime a leader is presenting like. swyx: there's always. Adam Argyle: One slide that's got like four pillars of our beliefs or whatever and you're like come on this is just a template slide everyone slaps and they go. Adam Argyle: Oh, this was some crap. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so we tease it every time we see it we're like there's the pillars. swyx: I mean it, this is the whole thing about draw the map right like like I want to know, like where do I end, because if you just say it's all the things I don't have to. swyx: do with that, but if I have covered like the big macro is kind of like your your meal right like when you're when you're eating you want to make sure you're taking care of your big macros and in you you're roughly like you're going to survive. swyx: So. swyx: Nice yeah it's kind of how I think about should we talk about self disruption. Adam Argyle: yeah. swyx: Alright, so tell me about what this what this is and what prompted it actually. Adam Argyle: Okay, and let's see what prompted it. swyx: was just something like not innovating or was it. Adam Argyle: That was just me making a comparison yeah I was apple and their new machines. Adam Argyle: It was. Adam Argyle: Chris cormier sharing a CSS tricks article about alternative browsers based on chromium that are offering unique can express of experiences. Adam Argyle: It was me reflecting on opera when they tried to do this with opera next as like a self disrupted browser implementation, it was really cool it's like bubbles every town was pretty neat. Adam Argyle: And I just was like started I just started thinking about it, I was like in tech okay it's like as a naive implemented right because i'm pretty much swinging the hammer on the engine every day like i'm constantly. Adam Argyle: In the House, making sure the door handles are shiny and open easy like this is what I mean by like being a ux developer like i'm just going around and making sure. Adam Argyle: That it all flows and i'm like in my head i'm like if we had tons of money and this thing was just so successful you know what I would do is I would roll that all into like a labs team. Adam Argyle: That made it so that I made the next generation of house like let's quit hacking on these same houses, we have it up, we have a great process and it's all hunky dory but at the same time, like we're out putting a factory looking thing. Adam Argyle: And, and we seem to be happy and proud about it, we are but i'm like okay So for me I got really confused i'm like I would, if I had all this money and success. Adam Argyle: Roll it entirely into disrupting myself into the next coolest thing, because now I don't have to have the same stresses, I did the first time, the first time, when I made my product, I was fighting right and you were pushing you had this ideal in this mentality. Adam Argyle: And i'd want to live that again, and what I don't see happening is companies do that I see chrome browser what is it 10 or 15 years old. Adam Argyle: It looks kind of the same has a ton of new features under the hood but i'm like this is a very unexciting user experience but that's probably fine that's fine for mainstream application and yeah you don't want to go to so anyway, I like I understand why. Adam Argyle: it's risky to try to self disrupt but at the same time, I made the adobe comparison with you i'm like 20 years of success of photoshop. Adam Argyle: And yet there's still like every three years, a new design tool popping up that. Adam Argyle: turns everyone's head away and is almost it always feels next gen when it shows up sketch showed up everyone freaked out three years later we'll freaked out over Sigma three years later we freak out over xd. Adam Argyle: And and yeah they're like they're disrupting photoshop but photoshop not disrupting itself like why can't they just sit back and be like we've got hundreds of thousands of dollars and lots of. Adam Argyle: developers let's pivot everything until like V2 of this thing and just rocket into the future, you know, like let's do what everyone actually wants, instead of just repeating. Adam Argyle: Anyway, so that that was the thought process and I was like why. Adam Argyle: Like Sean why don't more people roll their success Okay, because they do this in business right if you get a big fat success in your bitcoin output, or what I don't know like you roll your money back into a bigger investment and you roll it again. Adam Argyle: But they don't seem to do that with their products it's almost like it gets big they get. Adam Argyle: Rich they get not inspired anymore, and their focus has changed and they're no longer in that mindset of. Adam Argyle: Building the best product there now and then they're just in a new phase right and i'm like yeah, but you can be in the new face and invest in like another disruptive face right like now, you have the funds for it and that's what. it's all coming from yeah. swyx: A lot of thoughts on that. swyx: First of all, wasn't so wasn't xd doesn't actually count because it's also from adobe. Adam Argyle: I would argue it's of this is so rude of me to say is pretty much a fig macloan. Adam Argyle: yeah and it's great I love xd In fact I like it better than figure you. swyx: want them to innovate, the end of the day, I want them to. Adam Argyle: here's what I want photoshop to do with all their money and all their fantastic developers is make an actual web design tool like a real. Adam Argyle: represent tool and stop messing around with 20 year old style gradient makers and all this old crap that you've been carrying around like shed all that baggage go something straight up web focused and just. Adam Argyle: chew that crap off and just spec centric design tool, something that actually like has html elements in it, it helps designers facilitate something that is like more oriented towards a real thing instead of continuing to yeah. swyx: So we're flow like I mean. Adam Argyle: Yes, sure yeah so they so web flow chart it does disrupt the design market right big building like a web centric and web focused and spec focused design tool. Adam Argyle: And yeah i'm like why doesn't adobe look at that and go Okay, we need to do the same, we need to have. Adam Argyle: Our own version of this with our name on it we've got the funds we've got the people like they. Adam Argyle: See like from the outside, they have everything they need to do it like I look at Google, the same way i'm like look at chrome like they have all the money and all the people they need to make another version that's just incredible. Adam Argyle: And just does something fresh. Adam Argyle: But yet they're not and so yeah I was mentioning to you it's like ego it's just like to Polish turds apparently, so I think that's just kind of what happens is your ego grows. Adam Argyle: And you're like you, your smuggle I think I think what happens, this is success turns a lot of teams into some eagles and they sit and go my. swyx: Precious. Adam Argyle: yeah and they just. Adam Argyle: They just stroke, the ring and don't do anything new, with it, or whatever, and I guess that doesn't make sense, because they're. Adam Argyle: Not sitting on a pile of money, but anyway, you get what i'm saying. swyx: What adobe sitting on a pile of money, I definitely vouch for them for doing that, if they're like a 200 when I last looked at them like five years ago there, like a 60 billion like like decent size and now they're like 240 billion and. i'm just. swyx: To create like this, you think you think you know these companies, and then they they just blow past any form of expectation. swyx: Okay, so a couple couple things on this, so one is you know I had, I had a APP that I updated you know there's a I have 200 Apps probably on my phone, they do not update. swyx: You know why I don't update them because they may they may change and i'm scared of change, they work fine for me right now. swyx: And I updated one of them and yeah now like the old ux is gone and I can't get it back yeah so sometimes like don't fix what he broke, you know, like if I rely on this from a living in my business tools like. swyx: It just makes sense to just keep it for the others who will a very you have it, that that means something you know what I mean like that. swyx: That lack of change actually is a feature sometimes but yeah I mean obviously innovation is helpful, he did not want them to produce a Sigma clone I get it. swyx: they're probably looking at building a workflow or by workflow is both they're both totally possible but I don't think it's proven itself, yet I don't think like designers have like flocked to web flow like they have to figure. Adam Argyle: they've been distracted with yeah design systems and components third. Adam Argyle: Design tools are competing competing in that space to you know, make an API for all your tokens if you make your art boards like this put your squares like this and give them a name and you'll output, an API blah blah blah. Adam Argyle: yeah they're over there, turning their wheels hard. Adam Argyle: digging holes yeah my opinion yeah. swyx: Well, so Okay, and then there's also the fact that, like. swyx: It I think it takes a few years for a product to season. Adam Argyle: yeah. swyx: And, and like photoshop just you know I think it's not like there's like the Web version or creative cloud or whatever like that hasn't been that been around that long and it takes. swyx: A long time to reach like the mass population again, this is the whole concept of like you're in the head you evaluated all these tools and they came out you're like you know the difference between them, most people don't. swyx: Most people like hear about them like five years after they're out because, like that's what that's how long it takes to like hear about things you know from your friends and stuff. swyx: So you're you're wanting innovation at a pace that, like most of the country, your most the most of the industry doesn't operate on so I just want you to norm yourself. Like. swyx: Because you're at the cutting edge of a lot of things. swyx: Like and maybe it feels like the companies are not kee

Do you struggle to overcome adversity as you strive for success?You might believe your humble beginnings mean you'll never be able to achieve anything great…You might believe failure in business is too difficult to overcome or that it's an indication that you're just not cut out for entrepreneurship…If you find yourself struggling with those limiting beliefs, this episode is for you!In this episode, I interview Eric Toz and discuss what he has learned through his entrepreneurial journey, taking what some might consider failure and turning it into lessons that have helped to take him from struggling entrepreneur to multi-million-dollar CEO! In this episode, Eric and I cover:How his childhood influenced his determination for success What timeless principles and skills can be applied to your personal and professional interactions Why what seems like a loss can be an opportunity for future successHow to build stronger relationships with customers and employeesHow seemingly insignificant decisions can create massive change in outcomes If you got value from what you heard here, please be sure to subscribe and rate this podcast! Bonus points for you if you write a review! ;) — SUBSCRIBE & FOLLOW — Subscribe to Dan's YouTube ChannelSubscribe to Dan's How To Think YouTube ChannelFollow Dan on FacebookFollow Dan on InstagramFollow Dan on Twitter— TRANSCRIPT — Dan Henry (00:00:09):So welcome everyone to the inaugural episode of the, how to think podcast, the show where we break down the inner workings of the human mind and learn how to think like successful people so that we can achieve anything in business or in life by changing the way we think, Eric, how you doing, man?Eric Toz (00:00:30):So good. I'm so happy to be here. Been waiting for a couple months now for this.Dan Henry (00:00:33):So it'd be honest if it were friends. So if it wasn't you, that was here for the first episode, I'd probably be, you know, pretty nervous right now, because last night I did this Instagram story and I was like, I'm gonna research, like all these world-class like podcasters and interviewers and try to try to be a good podcast or in the next two hours.Eric Toz (00:00:55):I think by the end of it will, you'll be doing good. Dan Henry (00:00:58):Yeah. I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. But I'm glad I'm, I'm glad I have a good friend on to start out.Eric Toz (00:01:02):Take it easy, slow and steady.Dan Henry (00:01:04):I'm not much for intros, but you built $66 million business. You've done about a hundred million in sales, selling customizable jewelry online, and you started it by sleeping. You were sleeping and you were in Brooklyn, sleeping on a mattress. A whole bunch of crazy stuff went down and, and now you're here. And before we get into that, I just, I just want to say, like how, how would your parents describe what you do?Eric Toz (00:01:32):I think they would describe me as somebody who is always willing to burn all of the ships for me, like, you know, I had a pretty tough childhood. I think a lot of entrepreneurs did that provides an initial chip for them. They're off at whatever their circumstance or their parents, or just something bad happened to their health. And so they have this huge chip and for me, like there was never a plan B, like I was, I felt like I was going to be successful no matter what, if it wasn't like this thing that I'm currently doing, it was going to be something else. And so maybe not even about the money so much, but just such a strong desire to be successful in whateverDan Henry (00:02:16):It was. What gave you that chip? Because I know it gave me the chip that I had. I had a bunch of people who I would, I was delivering pizza and I would be like, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to build a business one day and they'd be like, shut up, like the delivery, you know? I mean, what, what was, what gave you that chip on your shoulder?Eric Toz (00:02:32):Well, a big part of it was my family has been very entrepreneurial. Like my grandfather, he actually, he had a factory in Massachusetts, literally called package machinery. This is like your old school factory, literally making like boxes and like packaging and stuff like that. And he, he sold that business. He was pretty successful. And then my dad growing up, we had a power sports business. So we were a family business. We sold jet-skis, we sold, we sold ATVs, like all these toys we had, like each of us three kids had our own everything. And then we had a few bad winters in a row where there was no snow up in New Hampshire where I'm from. And the business ended up going bankrupt. And so bankruptcy, you know, 30 years ago it was a lot different than now. Yeah, it was a true like seven years to repair your credit.Eric Toz (00:03:22):And so, you know, my dad, he went from being this entrepreneur to being like a Knight Security Watchman. Like I literally remember him coming home with like, you know, eggs and breakfast for us all after he was working all night at like a hotel. So I had no idea what was going on at the time. Had no idea what happened, how old were you? I was like five, like five, six, and all three of us. We were me and my brother, sister. We were like three, four or five, something like that. So yeah, that was really difficult. I was the poor kid at school. I was on free lunch. You know, I remember Christmas, like three Christmases in a row. I got like the same thing, which was this little, like a Hot Wheels set. And I'm like, oh, another Hot Wheels again, but we couldn't like afford anything.Eric Toz (00:04:07):So for me you know, going through puberty in high school at that point, I kind of wanted to latch onto something I could feel good about. And for me, it was sports at the time. So I threw myself into that completely. I would train for football, like during the summers, literally till like two, three in the morning, I'd be doing suicides and doing squats and stuff like that. And I had very good influences at the time. Like I had really, really great mentors. I had my football coach. I still can hear him yelling in my ear to this day saying, you know, stop feeling, sorry for yourself, stuff like that. So those were really good motivators at the beginning. And I had been influenced a number of times by some very important people not just in sports, but like later in business too.Dan Henry (00:04:55):So, so let me ask you this when you, cause I've seen, you've taken me to your warehouse in it's within the St. Petersburg city limits. And you, you took me there and it was super impressive. I mean, it's this gigantic it's like, you wouldn't even know it was there. You would not know it was there. You would not know that this building randomly in this industrial part of town is on a hundred million dollars in fricking e-commerce you know, and so you take me there and you've got these machines, let's see if we can get it, maybe Brandon can get a picture of your, of your thing up. And I can hear myself like a delay in, in my headphones a little bit, Brandon, I don't know if you've got the live stream going or not, but there's a picture of, of your, and how many people do you have working there?Eric Toz (00:05:53):Currently, we have 70 full-time employees. Yeah. Seven zero, I think during, during peak Q4, we'll have about 200 in the US and then we have an Amsterdam factoryDan Henry (00:06:05):Setting up now. So, so this right here is your, this is your warehouse. Okay. And I mean, that's, that's pretty big and it's actually bigger than that. That's just one section of it. And then you have another one where you do media, but I remember being in there, it was just like last week and yeah, zoom in a little bit, Brandon, like, look at that, look at all those people. So I want to understand the business model, because as far as I know it, you, you, you know, you have this company called shine on. Yup. And you, and you got to correct me if I'm wrong. Cause we've, we've been pretty stoned sometimes when we were talking about this, actually funny before I get into this funny story we met at this, this mastermind it was founders mastermind in downtown St. Pete. And we you had this you, you had this little segue thing that you were riding around on all, all through St.Dan Henry (00:07:00):Pete, that little, the one wheel, the one wheel. Yeah. And I remember I think you wrote it over to my penthouse here in downtown, and we got stone and just talk business for like three, four hours. It was amazing my condo. And it was a great conversation. And you told me and I definitely want to talk about this. Cause you, you told me about, you know, a lot of people say, oh, read this book and read that book. And you told me about the book, how to win friends and influence people, which I think a lot of people I think a lot of people say, Hey, read this book and people go, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool. I'll read that book, but they don't actually read it. And they don't actually put it into practice. And I re I noticed some things when we were, we were talking like, you would be like, oh, I'm sorry for interrupting. And you, you just said certain things. And I'm like, I really like this guy, like what the, what the, what is going on? You know? And I said to you, I was like, why are you so fricking likable? And you told me, you cheater that you read the book, how to win friends and influence people. And you like went hardcore on it. And you just, you, how much does that help you network and get through business and, and, and just in progress in your career.Eric Toz (00:08:12):Yeah. So I think, I think there are certain things you can learn that are timeless, right? There are certain principles that are timeless. And I think to be a good business person in the 1930s, when that book, how to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie was written you know, you couldn't hide behind email, then you couldn't hide behind social media. Like if you, if you wanted to conduct business, you had to like, look people in the eye, you had to shake their hand. You had to like, keep your word. You know, these are like old-school fundamentals. And so I think it actually be really helpful if entrepreneurs more entrepreneurs read that book today because it's really head-slappingly simple. Lee's simple things that he says where you're like, oh my God, I shouldn't have, I should have been doing this my whole, my whole life, like simple stuff. Like the sweetest, the sweetest word to somebody as their first name. So try to use their first name as much as possible because they immediately perk up. Right. You know,Dan Henry (00:09:06):Eric. Yeah. It makes me feel good. It does. And you know, when I read that, but I literally, because when you told me that it, it stuck with me and I've, I've read a little bit of the book, but I actually went out, I bought the book and I read it and I read it all the way through. And then I listened to the whole audiobook all the way through it. And then I downloaded the cheat sheet and I might've had one. I'm not going to lie. It's hard. It is super hard. Like some of this stuff is just hard to remember and hard to implement, and it's sort of like, you have to take. And when you first read it, you really feel like a Dick. At least I did, I read this and I'm like, well, I'm missing a lot of this. Like my first reaction was I must be a total Dick because I'm just reading all these things that we forget on a daily basis, you know, like not interrupting people, using their first names, smiling, you know, just, just, just something as simple as smilingEric Toz (00:09:58):With a pleasant tone. Dan Henry (00:10:01):That's the whole chapter on that, the whole chapter on that. And you dive deep into it. And I think in business and, and not even business, but in life, you, I mean, I'll give you an example. I was downtown. And I ran into somebody who was had actually followed me for some time and bought some of my products and stuff. And he had a friend who's this like high, high level, you know, manages billions of dollars in real estate. And I was just, you know, very nice to them. And I, I mean, anybody could have been any, any one of a thousand ways with their personality. And I was just trying to be very nice. And I noticed that his, his wife was a super, super sweet woman. And I remembered the book where it said, you know, think about what appeals to them, you know, think about w what brings value to them and how to appeal to them.Dan Henry (00:10:50):And I noticed that she wanted to talk about like cooking and making food for people. And that was like really important to her. And so I had a conversation with her about that, and I learned a lot about a lot of food that I didn't know. And then we ended up getting invited to their penthouse, which is actually four penthouses that they bought at the top of I forget which building, but it's, I think it's park shore. And they combined all four penthouses into one mega penthouse. Jesus. Yeah. It was you. And I learned so much about real estate and all that, and that was just, IEric Toz (00:11:23):Think it was from the, you conducted because of the cookingDan Henry (00:11:26):Conversations, because she invited, she invited us over for breakfast. She wanted to cook for us. So, yeah. So like, I mean, we didn't get an invite before that. And then, I mean, or maybe he, he would have invited us anyway, but it doesn't matter. The point is, is that, you know, sometimes I think we, we get wrapped up in all the problems in life. And so we're so focused on those problems and thinking about those problems, that when we go and all these differences in life, our problems are on our mind. And it's not that we're not, not nice people, but we don't take the time to articulate how nice and how genuine we are, because we're just so drowning in our own world of negativity and all the stuff we have to do. And I think that that book just gives it a great reminder to how to bring that to the surface.Eric Toz (00:12:11):Yeah, totally. And there's a whole chapter, literally just on listening. And at the end, he tells a story about how he had like an hour-long conversation with a woman on a couch. And he may be said like five words. And he was just asking questions, maybe like five or six questions. And she was talking the whole time, like, blah, blah, blah. I mean, he was into it. But at, at the end she was like, oh, you're such a good conversationalist. And he was like, I haven't said anything, but he just allowed her to sort of that. And just being there, like just holding space, I think for people can be really beneficial because everybody, especially in our business, our line of business, they just want to talk about what they're doing, like all the time and what they're currently up to.Dan Henry (00:12:58):Right. I, I do notice how did, and how do you think those tactics and that paradigm shift of how to interact with other humans? How do you think that differs between dealing with employees and dealing with just like other entrepreneurs, other, other people in your life that, that you don't pay?Eric Toz (00:13:17):I think the principles are, are the same, right? Like a mentor of mine, he's the co-founder of Zappos. His name is Fred Mossler and he, he treats his vendors the exact same way that he treats his employees and he treats people in the Las Vegas community the same way he treats vendors and, and they'll actually have vendor parties. They'll fly in their vendors once a year and have like a huge mega blowout party and something awesome that he told me was like friends, this concept of friends first. Like literally if you, if you just try to become friends first, all right. You know what they're doing a little bit, maybe not a hundred percent, but just focus on being friends first and really solidifying that. And then the business will come naturally. If, you know, if what they're doing is, is good. But you should be able to kind of know that ahead of time. So you don't have to worry so much about the business. Just kind of relax and see how you connect on different things.Dan Henry (00:14:15):And a lot of people, they try to create opportunities and that that's sort of, I mean, it's cool, but when you're networking and you're trying to make connections, a lot of times you just have to let opportunities come to you. And I think that if you try to create opportunities, you will go into meeting people in a disingenuous way. Cause you always have an agenda going in. I mean, if you meet somebody that is a player, right. Something is at, at some point is going to come of that. Something, at some point you don't know what it is right now, but at someEric Toz (00:14:49):Point and be like an A-player. Yeah. I mean,Dan Henry (00:14:52):I mean, it could be, it could be somebody that becomes an, a player. It could be somebody that's already an a player. It could be somebody that has done something that you respect. It could be a huge person in the industry. It doesn't matter. But the point is is if you try to go into that relationship thinking, what am I going to get out of this from the beginning, it's just going to, it's not going to be genuine. And if you go in and you just become friends and let the opportunity come to you, I think it's a lot better. Yeah.Eric Toz (00:15:16):Yeah. I have a firsthand example of this recently. I think we did a little bit of that also, my friend will, who, you know, who lives downtown here? He's just a really interesting guy. I just like him a lot. He does some cool things in skincare and in like NFTs. Right. And so I knew, I knew when I first started getting to know him, like there immediately there wasn't going to be any way where we do business together. And I was okay with that. Cause I didn't care. I just loved what he was doing on his own stuff. And I just wanted to be friends with them, but you know, over the past week or so, I've had an idea where I was like, holy will, would actually be like the perfect partner on this. And so you can't like expect those things to happen. It's just sort of, you know the way is of the universe sometimes if you have if you established friends first. Yeah,Dan Henry (00:16:05):Absolutely. I, I totally, totally, totally agree. So let me, let me just go back to this mattress that you were sleeping on. And you don't have to go deep on mattress pizza boy. Yeah.Eric Toz (00:16:17):My office is your pizza.Dan Henry (00:16:18):I see, I, you know, I actually I'm a mattress sleeper, every time I move into a new place, doesn't matter what my financial situation is. I always end up sleeping on a mattress for two months. Cause I can't find, I can't pick out what bed I want, you know, but I do like sleeping on a mattress, surrounded by nice walls versus the walls I used to have around, which were crumbling. But you know, let me ask you this. You had some stuff happen, you know, you, you, you took on some venture capital. You don't have, I mean, you can get into as much in this as you want, but you had some, some bad stuff happen and you basically had to sort of start over. Would that beEric Toz (00:17:00):With on yeah. So you know, starting, excuse me one second. Dan Henry (00:17:11):So polite. Is that in the book too?Eric Toz (00:17:15):I'm doing it for the listeners.Dan Henry (00:17:16):That's awesome, man. So, so, so what, what happened? They're like, well, whatever you want do.Eric Toz (00:17:22):Yeah. So I like to say I'm a two-time venture capital refugee. So the, for the first time was when I was at CustomMade.Com. We ended up raising about $25 million. Google was our investor, like all the top Silicon Valley investors. And we were basically you know, we were basically a high-end Etsy average order value, like a thousand bucks. But that it was a great idea. The business, it didn't work. At scale, we were burning a million dollars a month. And so it was just a reallyDan Henry (00:17:56):Burning a million dollars a month, whatever. I mean,Eric Toz (00:17:58):We were losing a million dollars a month just because of our overhead. And when you raise that much money, you're actually encouraged by all of your investors. Like, dude, we gotta, we gotta spend this as fast as possible because they either want it to pop in two to four years or they want you to, they don't want you to be the walking dead indefinitely. They would rather have you die or, or crush it quickly time value of money. But yeah, so I saw, you know, some of the advantages and pitfalls of raising that much money. You know, you lose a lot of control of your company, you have bored. And so when I started Shine On, you know, I didn't have any money either. So when I couldn't even pay myself, really, I actually started it on unemployment, which is honestly, that's the best trick.Eric Toz (00:18:45):If you want to start a company, try to get fired, ask your company, Hey, can you please fire me instead of leaving? Cause then you can get unemployment and you can get it for like nine months. So I was actually like, I went to Germany, I was like doing my unemployment forms from Germany. And the whole time I was taking literally all the money from the unemployment and putting it into shine on at the very beginning. Wow. Then that money ran out. And then I was, I was selling motorcycle rings to motorcycle clubs because I had this jewelry production knowledge. And I was like, how can I sell to a lot of people very quickly? So I made rings for like six or seven motorcycle clubs and that's how I paid my rent after the unemployment money ran out.Dan Henry (00:19:24):Did you have a machine for that or did you see all the machines you have right now, but what did you, what did you have that?Eric Toz (00:19:30):So at that time, so I had a friend who had a massive factory in Thailand in Bangkok. And so the first version of shine on was, you know, we would, us a, a marketer would give us their idea for a piece of jewelry, like a ring or a necklace. We would actually do a 3d render. It looked like an, a photo. It looked realistic. Can you give me an example? Yeah, if you actually just Google scooter ring, like on on Google something I designed it's like, it looks like a Vesper. Okay. So like Vespas scooteringDan Henry (00:20:01):Now. I feel like an idiot, cause I don't know what a VestaEric Toz (00:20:03):Is. Just like a stallion scooter.Dan Henry (00:20:06):Oh, okay. Okay. Actually, do you want, [inaudible] we'll talk about funny scooter story in a few minutes. You reminded me, do you remember what happened to me when I met Maura?Eric Toz (00:20:17):No.Dan Henry (00:20:17):You all, you don't remember that. I'll just tell it real quick. Cause Brandon's going to bring up, Brandon's gonna bring up a picture of this example, but you introduced me to Mara Glazer, who I ended up hiring to do some copywriting for how to think. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I remember I got that segue to go downtown and so I, I Google like how to change, make it go faster. Cause it was only going 15 miles an hour. And I got it to to a different mode where it went 25 miles an hour and right. So, but here's just a crazy thing about how, how, how thoughts can create reality is I'm driving down the road or scooting or whatever. And I think to myself, how bad would this suck if I totally wiped out right now? And five seconds later, I went to scratch my head, which I don't know why I did that. And I went over the top of it, wiped out. My knee was bloody. My hand was all messed up. I was goingEric Toz (00:21:10):25Dan Henry (00:21:11):Fast. Yeah. And I don't even know how I, and so I, I literally like the scooters all bent and I end up scooting down to beach drive and meeting Maura for the first time and right after, and I'm full of blood. And my, my stuff's ripped, like my jeans are ripped up and I sit down and I'm like, instead of saying, hi, how you doing? I'm Dan Henry. I had to explain to her why it looked like I just got to fight.Eric Toz (00:21:34):And she probably liked it like, well, this guy's edgy.Dan Henry (00:21:39):He still showed up, you know? But that just reminded me about how, like when you think of something you can like create the situation to happen. But Brandon, do you have that? Do you have that? There it is. Okay. So, so click on this.Eric Toz (00:21:53):This was the first, the first thing I ever designed for Shine On. So I was the first seller. I was the first, I was the first CS agent website, designer, jewelry designer, marketer. I was packing the jewelry myself like the whole first year. But anyway, what happened was yeah, this is how I kind of got started with it. I would, I would work with a marketer. I would make something custom and then I, they would actually put that on their store that just a render. So there's no inventory. And then we would take all the orders each week and I would put it in an Excel sheet and then I would send it to my friend in Thailand who ran a factory there. He makes all of David Yurmans jewelry. If you've heard of that brand high-quality men's men's jewelry. And so, yeah, that was great.Dan Henry (00:22:39):I'm going to stay silent. So I don't have to admit that I don't know what that is, butEric Toz (00:22:42):There's not a lot of guys do. But yeah, that was the first version of shine on. So I went from this like a motorcycle rings to actually designing some stuff myself. And then what happened was you know, Teespring came out, Teespring is like print on demand t-shirts and it was one of the first things Facebook marketers sold. There, I know a ton of guys who were millionaires a couple of guys, even in this area who made millions selling t-shirts there. And I had this jewelry knowledge. And so I was like, man, I, I love working with these marketers. We could really scale, I could scale this up much more quickly if I started working with Facebook marketers. And so luckily, you know, I had the prior experience from custom made which was, you know, it was still a success. Like it didn't work out, but we still raised a lot of money. We made a lot of noise and there was some trust there just from me being around that environment. And so I raised about a million bucks in venture capital and then immediately after actually hired Teespring's head of sales and Teespring's head of marketing. And that's how the initial Shine On got started. Wow. And they, then they brought all the sellers overDan Henry (00:23:47):Now, did you, I know that you raise capital and then something went wrong, and then did you have to raise capital again?Eric Toz (00:23:55):What happened? Was it wasn't that anything went wrong per se? It's just that we're kept pretty capital intensive business. A million bucks is not that much money if you want to build something large-scale. But what happened was we were it took four to five weeks for these items to be made in Thailand and then sent back to us where we would repackage it and then ship it to the customer. So these items sold super well. And we did over 5,000 various 3d designs and we did about five, 6 million in sales that first year. But what happened was we were getting a lot of chargebacks because of the weight. People didn't want to wait that long. They didn't trust it, even though the quality was super good. But no matter how many did it take, it took like four to five weeks after your purchase. So buyers are, you know, I think their limits around two, three weeks for reordering, they get pissy, they get antsy. So we started getting a lot of chargebacks and because we, we pay the sellers out like next day on their commissions or when it chips we would get these chargebacks after the fact.Dan Henry (00:25:03):So, so Jay, just to get the business model, right, you partner with people who want to sell their own personalized jewelry and you make the jewelry, and you ship. So it's like drop shipping and I believe you also give them the education on how to promote their products and get it out, get it out into the,Eric Toz (00:25:22):Yeah. So fast forward to today. I mean anyway, we, we, there was, we were running out of cash and at one point I said, never again, am I going to not make something myself? Okay. So I was like, I want the, I want to own the entire supply chain. Right, right.Dan Henry (00:25:38):And just so I'm clear, I just want to be sure I'm clear. That was because they were, it took too long. Right.Eric Toz (00:25:42):Just cause it took too long. That was okay. Got it. You literally the only reward to interrupt. And then there's, and then there's another thing about, you know, having more control of your margins, right. Being able to provide better customer service for everybody. But yeah, fast forward to today, I mean, we started in jewelry but we're, you know, we're an on-demand factory that we, we prototype, we develop and we sell ourselves viral gift products. So jewelry, wallets, watches, all personalized. And then what we do is we launched them through what we call an IPO process, initial product offering. So we'll say, Hey sellers, we got this new like wallet. That's personalized. You know, we, we sold like 500 grand in our initial tasks. And then we literally give away the farm. Like, here's exactly how we're doing it. And boom, now it's live in your app and it's free. Just go click, click, click, and you can add it to your store. And now you can sell this product. So we're almost becoming a little product agnostic. We're adding like metal wall art. Like that could go up here. I'll I'll have something for you. Oh,Dan Henry (00:26:44):Oh, okay. Yeah. I can, I could use some more, some more brains around this Personalized man. Yeah, yeah. You might have to, you might have to get me selling some products because I'm going to be honest with you. I'm gonna be honest with you. E-Commerce physical products is super difficult. And I told you this when I was at your, your warehouse, I doEric Toz (00:27:07):Hear like, oh no, I don't know if IDan Henry (00:27:09):Can, I couldn't do it. I could not do it. I mean, I'm looking at all these machines just to break down the thought process here. Right? I'm standing in this warehouse. I know that you guys have hundreds, you know, you've got, you've sold almost a hundred total, almost a hundred million dollars worth of stuff. You have machines that are like, w w what's your most expensive machine?Eric Toz (00:27:30):Ooh. we have we have auto pack machines that are about a quarter-million-dollar.Dan Henry (00:27:36):So $250,000 machines. And in my mind, here's what I'm thinking. What happens when something breaks, you got to call somebody, they got to come out, they got to get a part, and then you got orders. And like all this stuff going on, it's just, I gotta ask you this. How do you deal with the stress of going to bed every night and knowing that at any point, something like that could happen that could massively derail your business. Like, how do you deal with that? And how do you cope with that?Eric Toz (00:28:06):E-Commerce is complex because, you know, not only are you doing the marketing, sometimes you're also doing the training, but you're also if you're doing it right. I mean, you're also doing your own supply chain. You're buying inventory, you're storing it, you're shipping it out. So sometimes what we do because we're moving fast and we actually forget how many potential points of failure there could be, but we'll actually just write out a list. I'm like, you know, what, if, if, if any of these things fail, are we, are we screwed? Like, is this going to ruin the whole thing? And so a lot of times we're like, wow, yeah. If we ran out of X, Y, Z, that would shut down like everything. And so I'm constantly making lists constantly. If there's a new thing, that's a super imperative, making sure there's ownership of it.Dan Henry (00:28:54):But what do you mean by making sureEric Toz (00:28:56):There's ownership that somebody owns that it's like, Hey, if you have one job to do, it's making sure that we never run out of these like 50 different things. You know, we have an inventory manager too. Yeah. a lot of it is automated now. So like all our inventory management's automated their software to do it too. But you had to build, we built, we built our own. Yeah. So we'll kind of get a heads up of something running out, but look, honestly, stuff just happens to like, it's guaranteed, that stuff will happen. Major stuff. Whether it's a flood here or like a hurricane, or like, there's, there's a crazy cargo ship backup right now, like are all around the world. There are like crazy logistics problems. And so the number one thing for your customers is to just be a good communicator with them.Eric Toz (00:29:49):And that's honestly, it's a lot harder said than done. So that's where some of these Dale Carnegie principles come into play, just like thinking about them and their feelings being proactive, saying like, Hey, there's an issue. There's an issue here. You, you probably won't receive this in this time, but then give them some options. Like, I can do this for you. I can do this for you, or I can do this for you and just make them feel like they're the decision-maker next. And usually when you allow them to make decisions on what they want to do with their order, then a lot of the time they're, they're more cooperative and they actually will want to work with you. And sometimes you build stronger bonds with people and with customers when you screw up and then you, you like something detrimental happens. And then yeah, the redemption and you like go through this like thing with them. And they actually like, you have a tighter bond because they're like, then they're like the next time Eric screws up. Like, I know he'll, he'll be in my corner and he'll like, figure it out. So the same thing with employees too.Dan Henry (00:30:51):Do you feel that, cause I don't know if you've ever read the psychology behind likability and being imperfect, like, you know, what a Mary Sue is. So in, in film, Mary Sue is a character that is basically perfect and has no flaws. And so like imagine Superman, but there was no kryptonite. Like he wouldn't be that interesting. You know? And like when, when the star wars movies came out, a lot of people were saying that Ray was like a Mary Sue and that's why people were interested in her. And then so like later in the movies, they reallyEric Toz (00:31:24):Didn't know she had no flaws, she hadDan Henry (00:31:26):No flaws. And so you'll notice it in the second and third movie, they really dived into her like flaws around you know, her parents and things like that. And, and some other things. But, but the concept is that if you have a character in a movie that is perfect and has no flaws, then there's nothing to be interested in. There's nothing to be likable. There's nothing to, to bond with that because you can't relate to somebody. That's perfect. And I think a lot of times people strive to be perfect and they let perfection get in the way of the thing that makes them human. It makes them relate to other humans. And that in, in of itself is having flown.Eric Toz (00:32:03):Yeah, I think you know, we have our seller group on Facebook and so we're always analyzing what's what gets the most engagement and it's, it's usually two things it's posting about success. And then it's posting about like the hard times that you went through or like stories, hard stories, like redemption stories. Like people are so into that because we can all relate. Yeah. We can all relate to that.Dan Henry (00:32:28):Do you feel entrepreneurs have an ex an unrealistic expectation that things won't, that nothing will go wrong, and that if something does go wrong, that means they did something like there they failed or they're a bad person or they were wrong this whole time in their dreams. You know, like I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs really have that expectation going in that everything is going to go right. And they don't know how to mentally deal with it when things go wrong.Eric Toz (00:32:54):Yeah. I think that entrepreneurs understand that things are going to go wrong, but every entrepreneur is different in, in there how much they're willing to deal with. Like a lot of people will throw in the towel on something where somebody else won't. And I have two really good examples from my, from my life about not throwing in the towel. And this is not, I'm not saying I'm right by or right or wrong by throwing in the towel or not throwing in the towel. Right. But I'll give you an example of custom made.com where, you know, we, we raised that, all that money. And then I ended up leaving the CEO ended up leaving, but the sort of the third guy in our gang mentor of mine, Seth Rosen, he said, no, I'm going to stick with it. And so he made a deal with the bank wrote off all of the debt and he just went into this incubation period.Eric Toz (00:33:49):And now custommade.com is like 20 million, $30 million a year business. And he brought it back to life solely because he had a high tolerance for going through that. And he was so obsessed with it that he wanted to continue working on it. And same thing with me, I got to a point where after I burned all this, this seed capital that we raised and at one point I actually had to let go of almost all the company, like 90% of the company had to let go of like 15, 20 people in one day, once 15, 20 people in one day in one day. Yeah. We called it the red wedding. Like fromDan Henry (00:34:28):Game of Thrones, you have to be a game of Thrones nerdEric Toz (00:34:31):Joke, but not in a mean, not in a mean way, but it was just like, no, like, and everybody was like, Eric, give the investors like the rest of the money back. And there was maybe like, like a hundred grand left in the bank account. And I was just like, no, I'm not going to because like, I still have this vision for it. I need more time. And so I literally went from the super high and there's actually, if you Google the entrepreneur's journey, there's a graph of this where there's like this initial excitement. And then there's this period called the trough of sorrow. And then if you keep continuing going through the trough of sorrow, you get to experimentation and pivoting and new ideas. And then eventually you get product-market fit. And then when you get product-market fit, then you can scale.Eric Toz (00:35:21):And so how, how much are you willing to tolerate going through that trough? Because I'm not going to lie. I was, at that point, I cut my salary to like 40 grand a year. And I wouldn't say I was a loser. It's just that I kind of went into like hibernation mode. We're actually had to, my mind was going crazy. And if I didn't turn to meditation to help me calm down and just get refocused, like, all right, how am I going to pull this off? I would tell myself every day, this is going to be a book in a book someday. So yeah, we were down to like 20 grand bank account,Dan Henry (00:35:54):A book someday, dude, that's a roast on that for a second. This is going to be in a book someday. Yeah. That's that is that's deep, man. I mean, if you think about it, like, that's some internal motivation.Eric Toz (00:36:11):Yeah. I mean, I would tell people I'm like, you don't understand like there's no, I'm not going back. There's no plan B like I'm, I'm in this thing, you can't kill me basically. And I don't care if I make $0 for like four years like I'm going to make this work. And so there's, and then I kind of learned that there's always something that you can do. I had another, I hired another mentor who helped me out with some financing and I actually bought the company back from the investors. Cause I believed in it so much. So I was literally taking out like per personally guaranteed loans to buy back the rest of the company. So not only was I going from $0, then I even put myself in debt, like to get the company back because I was like, no, you don't get it.Eric Toz (00:36:56):Like I still see this path forward. I just need time. And so I actually have never raised money again since then. So we went from having 20 grand in the bank account to, we did, we did a hail Mary, we bought one machine and I moved out from Brooklyn to New Jersey and we started tinkering in a 1000 square foot garage with machinery and we built, then we built our first Shopify app in 2017. And we were the first people to do print on demand jewelry. And so then just incrementally building, building, building, building, building, come up with some new products, keep promoting keep doing what you say. You're going to do, build trust with the seller, with your customers. And yeah, now we're doing like 66 million a year in product sales, all bootstrapped. Yeah.Dan Henry (00:37:43):So if you were to like, imagine that on a graph, right. Where how much money did you raise at the, at the height of that?Eric Toz (00:37:50):At the beginning, we raised 1 million and then we ran out of that and we got down to 20 grand and thenDan Henry (00:37:55):Here at 1 million. Right. And imagine the, imagine it's a plane, right. And the plane starts nose-diving and it's heading towards the ground. And it literally goes so close to the ground before it pulls up that hits like 2200 feet off the ground. And it, you know, if you're on the ground, it literally blows your hat off as it scoops up. And then sky rack skyrockets up to, you know, from its original elevation of, of, you know, a million up to 66 million. That's insane. Yeah.Eric Toz (00:38:29):So when I went through the whole range of emotions, like you could possibly imagine like an idea raising money. Oh, other people believe in me, like this feels good. Like everyone thinks I'm smart. I have a great idea. And then reality sets in and just being like a total loser, firing everybody going. I had to learn accounting because I had to fire my accountant. I had to get rid of all the insurances. I'm like, what am I in? What am I protecting here? Something that's like worth nothing. So I was like, it, no insurance, no nothing. And so, but that was like the best lesson I ever learned because I had to learn, I had to learn a little bit about everything in the company, all the operations efficiencies. And so that going through that experience actually is really helpful today when I'm seeing all the pieces from a high level, because I've done all those jobs myself to a certain extent, I know enough about everything.Eric Toz (00:39:23):So I'm very grateful for that experience. But I'm also grateful for capitalism. I'll be honest because it allows you to go through that whole adventure and like that whole journey. And it is you against yourself. You're not really like competing against other people, even though you think you are, it's just like, you have to like, it's you in the mirror. So how can you, how disciplined can you be? Right? Like how disciplined can you be? How can you calm your mind? Can you get over your old? Because a lot of people, they, they bring their old life's experiences into their current business and they'll actually project some times. So if they are very needy, if they're a very needy person, cause you know, someone left them or whatever in the past, then they're just going to be attention-seeking in their business. So these can be, these are bad habits that could kind of take you down. So you really have to quiet your mind and try to get over your old and not project. A lot of people to, you might hire people from outside the company coming in and they're in a position of power and you don't see their bad habits in an interview and you would never know. But then after six months of working there, you're like this person's horrible. Like just like they're projecting because they're in this position of power now,Dan Henry (00:40:41):How did you, did you identify anything about yourself, old baggage that you were starting to bring in to your company and then you, you like identified it, you acknowledge it and you got rid of it. Did you ever go through anything like that?Eric Toz (00:40:59):Hmm.Dan Henry (00:41:04):You couldn't have always been the super nice guy that you are, that you are now. Eric. I refuse to believe that cause it'll make me feel even worse though. I'm just kidding.Eric Toz (00:41:14):Well, I'll be honest. Like when I had to let the whole company go I had somebody that really pushed me into doing that because I was like so nervous to do that. And it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But going through that experience made me a very strong person. Right. I think me probably wouldn't have done it and I would've taken, taken it down, and gone down with the ship with everybody, but I got the sort of push from a friend, and he kind of helped me plan letting go of the whole company. And so yes, like the entrepreneurial journey, it helps you grow as a person too in many, in many, many ways. So I'm very grateful.Dan Henry (00:41:56):Do you think the unwillingness to let somebody go or let people go because it's a good business decision. That was a potential thing that was kind of brought in. That was a detriment. And you had to learn how to get over that was that, would that be one of the things that I guess as you called it earlier I think you call it baggage. Would that be something that you think was baggage that you brought in, that you had to, you had to get over? That was like a major thing?Eric Toz (00:42:22):Oh yeah, for sure. Like I think, you know, Inex inexperienced in younger entrepreneurs, they have trouble doing that. Like letting people go, but then I started seeing things through a different lens with running a business. Now I actually see it as we're working, we're here together. We're working on this project for like a finite amount of time. So instead of thinking about like, there's an owner and there's an employee and they're basically like slaves to the company, like they own you. I don't, I don't think that way. I think, and I'm open with my employees, like, Hey, we're, this is a project we're working on for two to three years. So let's go get committed to this thing and let's go crush it and let's see what happens. Right. And then, you know, provide the right incentive for them to, for us to crush it together. So having that sort of, we're working on a project mindset, it's helpful in letting people go because everything is finite and I'm not even going to be there in five, 10 years either. And I tell people that this is a project, so we're not going to be doing this forever. It's not like we're married. So, you know,Dan Henry (00:43:34):Okay. Like Michael Jordan was not always going to play in the Chicago bulls, but while he was there. Yeah. And while his teammates were there, they did the best, they could to win as many championships as they could. But ultimately that entity, that, that concept, that project will live on. Right. Is that how you view it? Yeah.Eric Toz (00:43:54):Actually so the term I use is let's go out and like get this Superbowl ring if we can, if we can go. And that might be we go public or we get acquired or something that experience that all the employees had. They can look at the Subaru warring and be like, yeah, I was part of that. I did that. And then what they can do is parlay that experience and go off and do their own thing and their com and their next company. And then maybe I'll even invest in it or there'll be able to get investment because people are like, wow, they worked at shine on. So that's what I'm trying to do with this whole Shannon thing is employees. If they can get a Superbowl ring sellers, there's a lot of sellers started with selling our product and e-commerce, and now I know two dozen guys that I'm friends with who started selling our product, and now they're doing $10 million a year on their store selling something else. But, you know, we all got, we all got wins like early out of it and that's, what's important is getting wins together.Dan Henry (00:44:49):So if I was going to read between the lines here, I would say that one of the biggest things to keep in mind with everything that you said is before all this, you have to really get clear on what, why you're doing it, where, where you want to end, because, you know, if you were, I'm just giving an example, right? Like Tony Robbins, Tony Robinson's, Tony Robbins, you know what I mean? That's his brand is his name. So, you know, the whole, like maybe the concept of I'll be here, you know, for a temporary amount of time. And then eventually I'll be gone. Maybe that still applies to his company. I'm sure he has an exit or I'm sure he has a death strategy, you know, cause nobody lives for other, I'm sure he's not just going to die in his company. That's it. I'm sure he's going to live. He's going to somehow has a plan of action in there. But you know, I think if you were to say, well, my goal is to exit or my goal is to build something great. Or my goal is to change the world. Or my goal is to, to, to do this. I mean, would you say that you have to get super, super clear on what that is before you can start, as you said, going after the Superbowl rings because you got to know what game you're playing.Eric Toz (00:46:01):Yeah. 100%, a hundred percent like people ask me, how is my vision change? I'm like, no, my vision has literally been the same thing for five years ago. Like where we're at now is where I thought we could eventually be. And so I need to keep going, but wouldDan Henry (00:46:17):You articulate that vision?Eric Toz (00:46:20):So five years ago I said I wanted to be the Teespring of jewelry. So I was just looking at that model and I want to build something just as big as them. And they're at the time they were doing a hundred million a year in sales. And so you're almost there. Yeah. Now we're getting, we're getting close to there. I actually, in two weeks we'll hit a hundred million in sales all time. So yeah, like if you don't have that, if you don't have that vision and you're not committed to it, if you go through hard, like, like I went through, if I didn't have that that level of commitment, then I would have totally thrown in the towel. It might be different though, if you're, if you're making good cash, if you're cash flowing and then suddenly it starts hitting bumps. I could see getting out then because you've made all this cash already. But for me it was kind of like instill like most of my personal like all my assets, like most of my wealth is actually in the business. So I'm thinking like longterm and it's, it's definitely risky. It's, it's a huge risk. And that's my personalityDan Henry (00:47:28):Condo that that's being built right now. Saltaire in downtown. It's a littleEric Toz (00:47:34):Sexy start my podcast there.Dan Henry (00:47:38):You got to invite me over, man. That place looks, looks like it's going to be sick. Yeah.Eric Toz (00:47:42):I think we're going to do some events there, some mastermindsDan Henry (00:47:45):And it's going to be awesome. Let me ask you a question. And I know that you're not your company is a little bit different than say mine where I'm a little bit more like the face of it kind of thing. And you're you're, I mean, you are, but like e-comm, it's about the products and all that and, and you know, so I'm sure a lot of people, as somebody who built this, they have a way they view you probably a lot of different ways. They view you. What would you say is something that people misunderstand about you?Eric Toz (00:48:19):Hmm. That's a good question. Misunderstand. Well,Eric Toz (00:48:34):You know, even when I throw these figures out, like a hundred million, 66 million I try to not make it about me. I try to say, we sold this together. Right? Like we did this together. And so I, people might see me as, I dunno being selfish because maybe on my Instagram, I promote like all this personal stuff. But at the end of the day, like I want, I want everybody to win. Like I truly do. And one thing is if you make other people money, they'll always invest in you and your next thing, they hit,Dan Henry (00:49:14):They stay with you on the ride. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, look at, look how a lot of these funds have been built. Like you got guys that they run a certain type of business. They make people money and then they start like a real estate fund or a, or this, and then they're investing in that so that, you know, that's totally makes sense. Yeah.Eric Toz (00:49:31):Yeah. If you were, if I was your client and you know, I made a lot of money from your trainings right. Or teachings, and then you were like, you said to me, Hey, I'm going to go start this other thing. Do you want to invest in it? I'm like, hell yeah, you made me so much money, dude. Like literally here's like, you know, here's a million bucks or whatever investment, like no brainer. I, I trust you. You made me money here. Let's do it again.Dan Henry (00:49:56):No, I think people underestimate the value of creating a great product. I think there's a lot of people out there that do it for a cash grab and they do it for clout and they do it for a lot of the wrong reasons. And they don't really care or not. It's not that they care, but they don't put the effort into making a great product because at the end of the day, a great product will, you know, it will transcend a lot of mistakes, you know? And that's the thing that you're going to make mistakes you're going. And you know, when it comes to a lot of people in life, not just entrepreneurs, but a lot of people in life, they lack confidence. And I always say that you cannot build confidence. Does anybody tells you, you can build confidence full of. You build competence.Dan Henry (00:50:40):And as a by-product of that competence, you are granted confidence. Let me ask you this. I like that. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I, you know, I want to resist the urge to ask you a classic question. Like what, if you could go back to your 18 year old self and tell them something, what would you tell them? But what I'd like to ask is, you know, how did you in the ups and downs, it's easy to feel confident, have faith and stay the course when things are up. But when things are down, that's where people break and they fall off. What did you do specifically in your brain, in your mind that helped you get through those dips and maintain the course and maintain the faith and keep the confidence. Even when things look bleak, especially when that plane was right, the bottom, you know, 20 grand left in the bank or whatever other challenges you've had. How did you maintain, what did you tell yourself every day to maintain that level of dedication? Mm,Eric Toz (00:51:53):Well, I think, I think that you have to take the pressure off yourself. And so I'm in the process of writing this book. It's going to be called the entrepreneur survival guide, 20 things you can do when you're totally AFT, oh God, I loveDan Henry (00:52:12):That title. I really, oh, that's a great titleEric Toz (00:52:16):Too. So it's kind of like, imagine like how you would equip yourself for the zombie apocalypse. It's like that before, like business for business, I've been through like 20 of these things already. And at some point though, like once you're like, I'm doing this, no matter what you, at some point you have to take the pressure off of yourself in the day to day. So you have to say, all right, like, look, man, I still have to sleep eight hours and I can work like a maximum of 16 hours. And so, you know, you just have to be as efficient with your time, because if you literally do everything like perfect. And when you have no money left in the bank, you have to like, watch literally everything. Like watch every dollar spent every, every hour you have to be doing the right things. I remember literally going to like open certain tabs in Chrome and I'm like, no, like you can't do that. Right. I didn't know what the are you doing? Like, stay focused here. We don't have time for this right now. ItDan Henry (00:53:14):Was, it, was it porn hub you were trying to open or it was just likeEric Toz (00:53:18):It could be anything like ESPN. It could be like news, you know, I've been in, I've been addicted to news before. And so newsDan Henry (00:53:26):Sports. So, so have you ever got addicted to looking at things that you didn't have yet? Houses, cars?Eric Toz (00:53:34):Ooh, that's a good question. Like fantasizing about cars and stuff.Dan Henry (00:53:41):Yeah. Like, like imagine you're sitting there and you're working and you're like, if I just work hard enough, I'll be able to buy X or Y or Z. So then you go and you look up that car, you look at the features, you look at the you know, you look at how much it costs. I mean, I'll be honest. One thing I used to do is I used to put real estate up that I liked and I'd say, okay, this is called a vision board, like a vision board. And I would leave the tab up on my computer and every like two hours or so I would just flip over and I'd look at the house. And I remember I did that with I don't think I knew you then, but when I had that 8,000 square foot house on the water in Gulf port, I was looking at, yeah, I sold it and I bought the penthouse because I just living on the water, man.Dan Henry (00:54:21):It's like, dude, there's always a contractor at your house every single day or something. Well, no, just fixing stuff because the salt water blows with the Florida winds, they blow against the house and I'm in you're right on the water. So stuff, Russ, I had to replace my outdoor fans. Like every three months we would just go get completely rusted, no matter what you did. And just all kinds of crazy stuff that doc, you know, just so much stuff. And I just didn't want, I wanted to focus on all my business and I wanted, I wanted to stop leaving my phone around. And then not finding it for six hours because it was on the, you know, it was on the third floor and this and that. So when I bought the penthouse downtown, I just liked it a lot. It was actually more expensive than the house I owned, but it was smaller and it was just, I don't know, I liked the lifestyle more, but what I did was I would, I would put up a house that was very, very similar to that house.Dan Henry (00:55:18):And I would leave it up in my tabs and every two or three hours, I would just take a break and I would look at it and I'd be like, all right, I got to get to this much money. You know, obviously after taxes that dah, dah, dah. And so I would look and I'd say, okay, I need to sell this many units of my consulting or whatever. And I would, I would basically make that sort of like my, because you know, goals are weird, you know, like what are goals? You know, people have goals, but goals change. I just knew that I wanted to have a really nice house and I wanted to invite my family over and I wanted my family to experience being in a nice place. Cause they didn't really get, get to do that. And so I would leave it up. Yeah.Eric Toz (00:55:57):So my opinion on it is are you familiar with lead and lag measures?Dan Henry (00:56:03):No. I would love you toEric Toz (00:56:04):Explain it to me. Lead and lag measures would be like, so lag measure would be how much revenue your company didn't last month. Okay. But that's lead measures are more activity-based so here are the things I'm measuring each day for things I can control. Cause you can't, you literally can't control somebody else buying your stuff. I mean, you can't take their hand and force them to click and put type in their credit card. But I think you'd get arrested it's to me it sounds fun. It's like, oh, open daddy's wallet,Dan Henry (00:56:36):Dude. We should film. You should film an ad where you like break into somebody's house and make them buy a little customized pendant under their heads that would not get approved.Eric Toz (00:56:46):Yeah. So if you think about lead and lag measures, like a lag measure would be revenue. You can't literally control somebody opening their wallet and buying them. They still have to do that on their own, but something you can control every day is I'm going to go live two times today, I'm going to set 40 appointments. I'm going to try to close X amount of sales. So these are the things that you can control. Like I've always looked at houses and cars and stuff as like a lag measure. It's like I would rather set a goal of like doing X, Y, Z for the things I can control, because if I do everything I can control, most likely I'm going to get, get those other, those, those prizes. So my goal would be like only the things I can control, which would be maybe orders made or on whatever metric, because then my taste might also change. I might also want to drive a car or something later on.Dan Henry (00:57:38):Could I present to you a different way to think about it and maybe mate, this how to think, bro. Yeah. It's how to think. Right. And, and, and get your perspective on it. W so I have this crazy concept that I've really started to delve into recently the idea of not having goals now, before I that's hyper bowl right now. Right? So a lot of people like that, but let's, let's, let's dive into it. So if you have a goal, like, let's say you want to go to the gym. Okay. And you want to get Jack. And the only reason you're going to the gym is because you want to get checked. So you go to the gym and when you get there, you realize you're kind of fat and out of shape, you don't have abs, but you look around the gym and you see all these people with abs big muscles and you say, well, they're jacked and I'm not jacked.Dan Henry (00:58:18):That's why I'm here. So now I feel out of place, I feel like I don't belong. And it gives you this sense of automatically right off the bat, you feel unaccomplished, you feel less, you feel like you don't belong, right? Because you're setting this expectation that there's the reason you're there is for a goal. When instead, if you simply fall in love with the process, you fall in love with working out. You just, it doesn't matter what you look like. You love working out. You're going there because you love working out. And you love that process. It's sorta like when you Jitsu, right? If I like, I love jujitsu, I love it. I don't go to jujitsu class and say, I'm only going, because I want to win worlds. Or I want to win ATDC or I want to be a black belt. I go because I love it. And I noticed that when you love a process and you don't necessarily have a goal, you end up getting, so you end up getting rapidly good at that thing. And you blow past any goals that you could have achieved, or you could have made for yourself by falling in love with the process. I'd love to know your take on that.Eric Toz (00:59:21):So I think, I think more people should set goals around how they want to feel. Right. Because ultimately isn't it all about having a feeling of happiness. So it's like, I envision, I envision a world where I wake up everyday and I feel this way. Right? It's like, that's not something that's tangible. That's a feeling, but it's also inarguable, right? Like if you feel a certain way, there's no metric that can dictate whether that's a success or not, because it's about how you feel. So I think people should focus more on that because they can literally get to that goal, like a lot faster than any other like metric based.Dan Henry (00:59:59):Well, what do you think creates happiness? Do you think happiness is created by feeling like you've made progress, feeling like you've. So I heard a Jordan Peterson talks about this. He was saying that a lot of times we feel happy because we solve problems. Cause if you think about it, right, what is the human mind? It's the computer. What is it? So forget the human mind for a second. W what, what does a computer do? What does it really do on a fundamental level? It solves it crunches numbers, and it solves problems. One after the other that's its purpose. And then one day the motherboard goes out and the computer stops working and it stops solving problems. And it dies. The human brain is basically a computer. And it, I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, like what happens if everything was perfect in your life? You'd almost go crazy.Eric Toz (01:00:43):Well, actually we see this with super rich people and celebrities. They're like super depressed because the mind, even when, even when you saw everything, the mind will look for new things to solve. So it might actually drag you down. It might actually cause chaos in your life so that you can solve them. Like a lot of people, they bring themselves down from from success because their mind is just needs a new problem to create and solve. Oh yeah. I can feel that. And that's another thing. There's this amazing book called the big leap by gay Hendricks. And basically it's like you know, success for a lot of people is foreign and the, their subconscious it's almost scary to be successful because their subconscious is not used to that. So they would rather, almost subconsciously self-sabotage to bring themselves down to what they're used to.Eric Toz (01:01:38):So I've seen it with a lot of people and alcoholics too that runs in my family. Like people will get a certain taste of success and then there'll

Episode NotesPublished on October 11, 2021Our Hosts:Mike Ercolano's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mike_ercolano/Kelly Krauss' Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kkrauss76/John Espodito's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/john_esposito15/Next Generation Training Center: https://nextgenerationtrainingcenter.com/NextGen Radio Podcast: https://nextgenerationtrainingcenter.com/nextgenradio/Mike Ercolano (00:00):What's up, everybody. Thank you for listening to NextGen Radio. This is a podcast for those of you who want the truth and nothing but the truth when it comes to diet, exercise, and all things health. This is episode number 35 and I'm Mike Ercolano. I'm here with my co-hosts Kelly Krauss and John Esposito, and we are about to fill the next 30 minutes or so of your time with some super exciting health and fitness stuff. So, if that's what you're interested in, welcome.Transcript and Show Notes:Mike Ercolano (00:34):I don't know, I'm trying to extend the intro to keep the listener's attention, but I don't know. It's not working.Kelly Krauss (00:41):All right. We're here, we're here.John Esposito (00:42): We're all here.Mike Ercolano (00:43):I don't think I have either one of yours attention either because you're looking down at your phone and...Kelly Krauss (00:48):I was just trying to find something.John Esposito (00:48):I'm trying to find good quality information.Kelly Krauss (00:50): Yeah, I was too.Mike Ercolano (00:50): Ah, cramming last minute.John Esposito (00:52):Yeah, of course. That's how I got through college. Last-minute cramming.Mike Ercolano (00:55): Yeah, I understand that.Kelly Krauss (00:57):I'm a planner, so I've let myself down with today.Mike Ercolano (01:00):You didn't plan beforehand?Kelly Krauss (01:02): Not really.John Esposito (01:03):But you were saying you were trying to.Kelly Krauss (01:04):I put thought into it, but I came up with nothing. That's not acceptable. I have to come up with something.Mike Ercolano (01:10):You're right. Yeah, that was not acceptable.Kelly Krauss (01:12): Right.Mike Ercolano (01:14):No. That's right, I didn't plan anything either, but I never do. I mean, that's not true. Sometimes I do.John Esposito (01:20): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (01:21):Yeah, we just got to get better with that.John Esposito (01:23): Yeah, we do.Kelly Krauss (01:24):Because you need time to think about it. You need time to research.John Esposito (01:28):Absolutely. Mike, you did queue a little interest in some topics I was reading on when you were asking about how our workouts are going.Mike Ercolano (01:33): Yeah?John Esposito (01:33):Yeah. So, I was reading up on a new training... I guess, science behind some training. It's the idea of 90 degree eccentric training. I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but it's just-Mike Ercolano (01:46):No, I don't think so. 90 degree eccentric training? Is that what you said?John Esposito (01:50):Yep. 90 degree eccentric isometrics is the full name.Mike Ercolano (01:54): Okay.John Esposito (01:54):So, there is a good amount of new research out and a lot by one specific, I guess, performance coach, but he's also a doctorate. He's a physical therapist, doctor in kinesiology as well as everything else.Mike Ercolano (02:10):Remix. Sorry. That didn't help either.John Esposito (02:13):For the life of me can't remember his name, but a lot of his research and lot of the research that he based his training off of is about joint angles and about how musculature affects those joint angles and vice versa. How the joint affects... My God. English. How joint angles affect musculature. There's been a lot of research in the past couple of years saying that that 90 degree angle, which we normally say is a baseline to get to, I would say, with a squat or most movements is actually the ideal positioning for most joints muscles and actually for majority of the body, for spinal alignment as well.John Esposito (02:50):Now, a lot of his training with high-end athletes... He trains a lot of quarterbacks, he trains a lot of sprinters, even bodybuilders. So, he's got a lot of variety going into there. Are finding huge results just by real simple movements. Like a goblet squat, going down into a 90 degree angles, setting that in position, keeping constant tension throughout that, and then exploding out of that movement. But you get after isometric, which it allows the muscles to secure the joint, getting into that isometric at the bottom, after the eccentric. Which we know it's forcing your muscles to squeeze, it keeps everything in position. But that is also helping to relieve injury, to treat injury, and to also prevent injury. So, there's now about 250 studies included in his website.Mike Ercolano (03:40):Hm. What's this guy's name?John Esposito (03:42):It's something Seedman. Or Joel Seedman, I believe. And a lot of his training has been going off of that, and he's been finding results that have been supporting all the research as well. It's not just lab-based, it was practice-based as well.Mike Ercolano (03:58):Right.John Esposito (03:59):These athletes that you're seeing are some of the best of the best. You have, I can't remember who thequarterback was. Is it Heinicke or Heinky?Mike Ercolano (04:11): I don't know.John Esposito (04:12):He just had a good week, put up three touchdowns.Kelly Krauss (04:16): Who is he with?Mike Ercolano (04:16):Oh, a current quarterback?John Esposito (04:17): Yeah, current quarterbacks.Kelly Krauss (04:18): Okay. So-Mike Ercolano (04:20): So, bodybuilders-Kelly Krauss (04:21):... these are the people he's trained and this is part of his study.John Esposito (04:22): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (04:22): Okay.John Esposito (04:23):So, this is all part of his practice and-Mike Ercolano (04:26): I'll look him up later.John Esposito (04:26):... I was looking into it and it's proven. Actually those angles support the right muscle activation of both glutes, quads, hamstrings, and a squat. Works the same for upper body movements as well. So, doing overhead press is coming down to a 90 degree, locking in that form, locking in that positioning, exploding out of that will work the same way. Prevents the joints from going past their quote-unquote end range of their limit, but you also still work into those end ranges. But getting to that 90 degree angle allows the muscles to secure the joint, building around that, and then you can actually bulletproof the joints to work better in bigger ranges after that.Mike Ercolano (05:04): Hm.John Esposito (05:06):I don't know if I'm explaining it right, but-Kelly Krauss (05:07): Oh, yeah.Mike Ercolano (05:08):Yeah, no, I'm following you. So, now I've never heard of this guy. And so, I'd like to look into a lot more of it.Kelly Krauss (05:15): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (05:16):It's interesting, because I use a lot of isometric stuff with either during stability work with athletes or with people who have pain.Mike Ercolano (05:25):So, for example, Vinny. You just stretched Vinny, he just walked out of here. He's got two torn ACLs MCLs. Both his knees are banged up, but he obviously continues to train hard. So, a lot of stuff we do, especially when we're not in a camp right now like we are... When he's just general training, we do a lot of isometric work and we do a lot of isometric work during his warmup and during his, excuse me, prep and prime work, and it helps alleviate his knee pain.Mike Ercolano (05:55):And I found that isometric, I mean, without any studies or anything, just by doing it and anecdotally. So, it's cool to hear that there's some studies that back that up because I've just done it because we'd do it for a little while and he says his knee feels better and we trained.John Esposito (06:10):And it was just about... I think it was 250 plus articles that he has included on his website that support this idea of 90 degree eccentric isometrics. So, lowering phase of about four or five seconds, really getting the most muscular feel out of that, coming down to that 90 degree angle, and then supporting that trains those joints into their best position, trains those joints to stay secure in those positions, but it also translates to going past those positions as well when you go into less loaded-Mike Ercolano (06:40):Interesting. And I guess maybe once you go past those it's more into the mobility training side of things,right?John Esposito (06:46): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (06:47):Well, we could talk about the kid you had in sports performance this week with his squat. That was trulyass to grass, right?Mike Ercolano (06:53): Yeah, it was terrible though.Kelly Krauss (06:54): It was so, so low.Mike Ercolano (06:55):Not terrible. And because, he didn't really know what he was doing, it was just terrible that it was actually better than what most people would be able to do naturally. Because that's closer to what we're naturally supposed to be doing than how we are now.Mike Ercolano (07:12):But the problem is, he, along with many of us, lack the stability to go that far down. He was going that far down, but his ankles were rolling in and his hip flexors. His knees were folding. He didn't have the hip strength, the stability through his hips and the mobility in his feet and ankles to be able to go that low.Mike Ercolano (07:31):But naturally we should be able to sit in that position. In fact, we should be able to... That's like if you goto third world countries, that's how they-Kelly Krauss (07:40): How they hang out.Mike Ercolano (07:41):How they hang out, how they shit, how they take a break. They sit into that position.John Esposito (07:47):It's actually, speaking of that you're saying that's how they shit, that's actually the body's naturalpositioning for-Kelly Krauss (07:52):Like the-Mike Ercolano (07:52): The Squatty Potty.John Esposito (07:53): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (07:53):The Squatty Potty. Exactly.John Esposito (07:55):I mean, about five or six years ago before I even saw the Squatty Potty, I used to be putting somethingunderneath my feet when I would go-Kelly Krauss (08:00):Well, it helps. It supposed to help the flow.John Esposito (08:03):Yeah, I had no clue about it and I was just like, "You know what?"Mike Ercolano (08:06):That's how I get my calf work in.John Esposito (08:08): Yeah?Kelly Krauss (08:08): Really?Mike Ercolano (08:08):When I'm sitting on the john, yeah.Kelly Krauss (08:10): Ah, interesting.John Esposito (08:10): Push it up there?Mike Ercolano (08:11):No, I don't do reps. No. I'm not sitting there doing calf raises while... I do read a book though.John Esposito (08:19):Yeah?Kelly Krauss (08:19): That's good.John Esposito (08:21):It is good. Yeah. It's good that you [crosstalk 00:08:22]Kelly Krauss (08:22):I have all kinds of reading the bathroom too. In fact-John Esposito (08:23): Absolutely.Kelly Krauss (08:24):... I've invoked the rule no more phones in the bathroom.John Esposito (08:26):Mm-hmm (affirmative). You get sucked in.Kelly Krauss (08:26):Because they're in there forever.Mike Ercolano (08:29): Yeah, you get sucked in.John Esposito (08:31): Oh, absolutely.Kelly Krauss (08:31): It's not okay.Mike Ercolano (08:31): No.John Esposito (08:31): You get sucked in.Kelly Krauss (08:31):Reader's Digest is the perfect thing to have in your bathroom because their articles [crosstalk 00:08:35]John Esposito (08:34):Yeah, it's just interesting enough, but then it gets boring after a while.Mike Ercolano (08:37): They still make that?John Esposito (08:37): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (08:37): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (08:37): Really? I had idea.Kelly Krauss (08:37):I love Reader's Digest.John Esposito (08:39): Oh, yeah.Kelly Krauss (08:40): I'm a big fan.John Esposito (08:40): See-Mike Ercolano (08:41):I'm surprised it's not just a virtual one now.John Esposito (08:42):My issue is I have Popular Science, a couple of the car ones in the bathroom. So, even if I don't have myphone, I'll be sitting there for hours.Kelly Krauss (08:50):Yeah, I have nutrition magazines in there.John Esposito (08:51): Yep.Mike Ercolano (08:52):I use my... Remember when I used to use that Pomodoro for doing work? That little timer thing. Is thatwhat it's called? The little Italian tomato timer thing.Kelly Krauss (08:59):Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes.Mike Ercolano (09:00):Yeah, I use that in the bathroom when I'm reading.Kelly Krauss (09:05): A tomato timer?Mike Ercolano (09:05):Mm-hmm (affirmative). Or else I'll be there forever.John Esposito (09:08): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (09:09):It depends on what I'm reading or especially if I'm on my phone, but I'm very, I don't know, regimented right now. So, I'm in a pretty good routine that I'm in there for 10 minutes. Set it for 10 minutes. Boom. I get my 10 minutes of reading done every morning.Kelly Krauss (09:23):Thank you. Maybe I'll get a tomato timer for my bathroom at home.John Esposito (09:25): Yeah, pop it in there.Mike Ercolano (09:26): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (09:26): This is all you got.John Esposito (09:28):You see one of them walk in, give it a little twist real quick.Kelly Krauss (09:30):And I'll keep it outside the bathroom so they can't adjust it.John Esposito (09:32): I like that.Mike Ercolano (09:33): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (09:33):Right?John Esposito (09:34):Yeah, because you can always push those things five minutes.Kelly Krauss (09:36): Uh, yeah.Mike Ercolano (09:37):Oh, yeah. I mean, it comes along with the discipline of not doing that.John Esposito (09:42): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (09:42): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (09:44):But that's why I like that instead of my phone, because if I'm on my phone I... Besides having the normal amount of ADD that we all have now with our phones, I think I have even worse ADHD. Well, I know I do because I'm taking freaking medication for it.Mike Ercolano (09:59):But I'll go in and I'm like, "No, I'm doing one task." And then all of a sudden two minutes later, I'm in a rabbit hole of something else. I'm like, "Fuck. I just told myself I wouldn't." Literally. So, if I have a timer on my phone, I'm screwed because I'll snooze it and then I'll just start Googling something or whatever. So, the little old school kitchen timer works perfectly.Kelly Krauss (10:25): I like that idea.Mike Ercolano (10:26):And there's something about the ticking.Kelly Krauss (10:29):It's soothing? Like white noise?Mike Ercolano (10:32):It's more... I mean, I guess you have meditative. It gets you more in the zone, especially when I'm reading or doing work. Well, I haven't done it doing work. But reading, it gets you in the zone, it blanks out any outside noise. Even though it's not very loud, it gives you that tempo to follow. So, I like it. Yeah.Mike Ercolano (10:50):So, if you are walking by my house at... Usually it's about 5:00 AM, 4:45 AM, and you hear a little ticking coming from the bathroom.Kelly Krauss (11:00): That's what's happening.Mike Ercolano (11:01): That's me in there reading.Kelly Krauss (11:02): Okay.John Esposito (11:03): All right.Mike Ercolano (11:03): That's me in there reading.John Esposito (11:04):Good to know next time we pass by Mike's house.Kelly Krauss (11:06): That's right.Mike Ercolano (11:07): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (11:09):We can't get in. We can't get past your gate.Mike Ercolano (11:11):You can't, you can't. So, you have to tell me if you do, because if not, I'm pulling my gun out if somebodycoming through my door at 4:00 AM.Kelly Krauss (11:16): Yeah, right?Mike Ercolano (11:17):That's for sure. But yeah. So, going back to squatting, right?Kelly Krauss (11:22): Yes.Mike Ercolano (11:22):That's where this all came from?Kelly Krauss (11:23):This was all from John's article.John Esposito (11:23): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (11:26):Or actually, isometric holds. Yeah. So, I mean, I said anecdotally. But yes, I have read, maybe not studies, but other performance coaches and trainers talk about using isometric holds and physical therapists using isometric holds to help with injury. So, that's where... I didn't just come up with a one [inaudible 00:11:49]. So, it's interesting that someone's actually taking that even further and doing a ton of studies into it.Kelly Krauss (11:54):I think we should incorporate it.John Esposito (11:55):He's going full force. I mean, most of his training that I've seen on his page, on his website, is solely 90degree eccentric isometrics. And the occasional full range of motion movement.Mike Ercolano (12:07): Right.John Esposito (12:08):But it's just to keep them secure, because high-end athletes are very injury prone, even though they aretrained not to be.Mike Ercolano (12:15): Right.Kelly Krauss (12:16):Well, one of my favorites, the one and a half of a hold.John Esposito (12:19): Yeah?Kelly Krauss (12:19): A squat, yeah.John Esposito (12:20):Oh, yeah.Kelly Krauss (12:21):I really enjoy them. And you have to watch the clock. You can't count by yourself, because if you countby yourself it's one, two, three.Mike Ercolano (12:26): Right.John Esposito (12:27):Now, a lot of the benefit comes from both the amount of blood flow that goes into the muscles with those isometrics, with the eccentrics. That was one big part of his research that the blood flow increases significantly, which one-Mike Ercolano (12:38):More blood flow, more oxygen, more nutrients.John Esposito (12:40):Yep, less injury in there because-Mike Ercolano (12:41): More recovery.John Esposito (12:42):... everything's a little bit more pliable. But also at the same time, the nervous system fires up a little bitharder as well.Mike Ercolano (12:46): Nice. Right.John Esposito (12:47):To get into those eccentric, get into that isometric specifically, fires the nervous system 10 fold.Mike Ercolano (12:52):And I'm sure, I mean, I don't know if it was part of the study, but I'm sure it fires up the cardiovascularsystem too.John Esposito (12:58): Oh, absolutely.Mike Ercolano (12:59):How many times do we have an isometric hold in our programming and it doesn't look that-John Esposito (13:04):Difficult.Mike Ercolano (13:04):... hard. People don't really think until they're halfway through-John Esposito (13:07): I mean, today.Mike Ercolano (13:07):... and their heart rate's up and they're... So, I like that. Isometric holds.John Esposito (13:12): Yeah [crosstalk 00:13:13].Kelly Krauss (13:12):I think it should be in our next program.Mike Ercolano (13:14): Send it over, yeah.Kelly Krauss (13:15): Yeah, let's do it.John Esposito (13:15): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (13:15):I'd like to follow him. I'd like to look more into him too. That's pretty cool. And look, even just the basic principles of strength training, putting on muscle and muscle mass, time under tension is one of the key, if not the most important factor, for it. So-John Esposito (13:32):Absolutely. It's a very-well rounded system.Mike Ercolano (13:33):... that isometric hold adds right into that. So, cool. Good stuff. What was his name again?John Esposito (13:39): Joel Seedman.Mike Ercolano (13:40): Joel Seedman.Kelly Krauss (13:43):Joel Olsteen.Mike Ercolano (13:44): Joel Olsteen.John Esposito (13:44):He's going to start preaching to us.Mike Ercolano (13:45):Yeah. Well, he could maybe isometrically hold his body off the ground, floating a foot off the ground.And then I'll believe all the shit he talks about and may get very, very rich off of.Kelly Krauss (14:00):Haven't we learned from all of those guys when they live in their mansions and they drive these cars?People are still following him and listening to him and believing in it?Mike Ercolano (14:09):Obviously enough to support that lifestyle.Kelly Krauss (14:11):And how... That's not worth talking about, but it just amazes me.Mike Ercolano (14:15):We can't get enough people to support us to live that lifestyle. We got to do something. Let's start lyingto people. All we have to do is manipulate people and take their money. That's what they do, right?John Esposito (14:27): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (14:27): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (14:27):That's what all these rich people do.John Esposito (14:29):That's a new business [inaudible 00:14:31].Mike Ercolano (14:31): Yeah.John Esposito (14:32):Yeah.Mike Ercolano (14:32):All right. We guarantee everyone's going to have a six pack abs and ass like J-Lo, if you're a female. Andass like John, if you're a guy.John Esposito (14:42): I was going to say...Kelly Krauss (14:45): Both of you. Or Vinny?John Esposito (14:46): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (14:46): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (14:46): Yeah, Vinny.Kelly Krauss (14:47): We could sell that one.John Esposito (14:48):I got told I can't complain about my ass anymore because Vinny's got a bigger one, so...Kelly Krauss (14:51):Well, we definitely can't put him in a lineup. He's in a league of his own.Mike Ercolano (14:54): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (14:54): Between you two-Mike Ercolano (14:56): He's pretty ridiculous.John Esposito (14:57): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (15:00):I don't know. Where were we going? Oh, we're lying about what we're going to provide people. We'regoing to do all that for you in a week, but you got to pay 50 grand up front.Kelly Krauss (15:07): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (15:08): I think it's fair.John Esposito (15:09): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (15:09): I think that's fair.Mike Ercolano (15:10):I mean, it's life-changing.Kelly Krauss (15:11): Of course.Mike Ercolano (15:12): Legit life-changing.Kelly Krauss (15:13): You'll never go back.Mike Ercolano (15:13): You'll get relieved.John Esposito (15:14):You'll never be the same afterwards.Kelly Krauss (15:15):Right. You don't want to be.John Esposito (15:17): No.Mike Ercolano (15:18): All right. So...John Esposito (15:19):Sold.Mike Ercolano (15:20):Joel Olsteen, make some room next door because we're moving in.Kelly Krauss (15:23): Yeah, we're coming by.Mike Ercolano (15:25):No, but I'd like to follow that guy Joel. Maybe if he's not too big for us, we can have him on the showand talk a little bit about it.John Esposito (15:32):That'd be interesting. That'd be a good time to do.Mike Ercolano (15:33):All right, John, you're on it. Reach out to him.John Esposito (15:35):All right. I'm going to give it a try. Ain't direct enough on the page.Mike Ercolano (15:38):Speaking of big enough, have you guys seen the average weight gain of Americans during COVID?Kelly Krauss (15:45): No, tell me.Mike Ercolano (15:46):Because it's actually been all over the place a little bit. But-John Esposito (15:48): Really?Mike Ercolano (15:48):No, no. I'm just trying to segue into what I've read, but it's not working. It's actually not all over the placebecause the news will probably not cover that because they'll just say, "Take a shot."Mike Ercolano (15:59):But anyway, so the average American gained 29 pounds over the pandemic. I guess it's still going on or whatever, but so 29 pounds. So, figure over 18 months, right? So, how many pounds is that per month? 1.6 pounds per month.Kelly Krauss (16:22): Okay.Mike Ercolano (16:23):All right. If we're looking at 18 months. Now, the average normal rate for weight gain, because theaverage American does gain weight every single year, is between 1.1 and 2.2 pounds per year.Mike Ercolano (16:38):So, during the pandemic... If it's over yet, I don't think it's over. I don't know if there's going to-Kelly Krauss (16:46):They don't want it to be over.Mike Ercolano (16:46):No, but I don't know what-Kelly Krauss (16:46): So, yes but no.Mike Ercolano (16:48):... constitutes a pandemic starting and ending. When is it over? Is it just when they're like, "All right, it's done." Or does it have to fall below a certain amount of case numbers? Anyway, that's for a different conversation. So, the average person, an American. An American. A-N. The average American. The average American.Kelly Krauss (17:13):You really worked that out.Mike Ercolano (17:14):I had to get it right. I had to get it right. It's only fair.Mike Ercolano (17:20):The average American gained a year's worth of weight, essentially, every month during the pandemic. So, just put that in... I mean, if we already had an obesity factor beforehand or an obesity issue beforehand, you imagine where we're going to be at now or five years from now, or 10 years from now, if things don't change? If the culture and the message and the society and the focus on health doesn't change...Mike Ercolano (17:52):Just look at how fast the obesity rates have grown. I mean, in the past, I don't know, 30 years, 40 years, they've quadrupled and probably more than that. Then what's going on is not a natural progression, right? It's all lifestyle. It's a lifestyle change. It's pretty clear. It's very clear. It's science, right? You got to follow the science. It's a lifestyle change that's causing this issue.Mike Ercolano (18:17):So, think about how much that has just been accelerated over the past 18 months now, right? Of how many people fall into that category. And that's the average. So, obviously there's a lot higher and a lot lower. I think median is usually a better way to look at it, to get a more fair perspective of what the middle looks like. But still, that's a number that we could go off of. So, I don't know. That's just a staggering number, and it's a sad number and a scary number because-John Esposito (18:51):A year's worth in a month.Mike Ercolano (18:51):Yeah, essentially. So, I mean, what is the... I got this little BMI calculator thing, which I used to carry around with me all the time thinking I would use it, but I never used it. But it was from a... What is this? From a vagina doctor? What are they called?Kelly Krauss (19:09): What? A gyno?Mike Ercolano (19:10): It's from a gyno, yeah.Kelly Krauss (19:12): Why do you have that?Mike Ercolano (19:14):I took it from my former business partner years ago. Yeah.Kelly Krauss (19:18):Oh, he could have used that.Mike Ercolano (19:18): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (19:21):Was he using it for himself?Mike Ercolano (19:21):But I would assume maybe there was a client of his or something that had these. He had them in theoffice, so I took one to use. But anyway, so-John Esposito (19:30):What is the average BMI? Between 25 and 30? Or is that the healthy range is 25 and 30.Kelly Krauss (19:35): Ah, yeah. Well, you got to talk women or male.Mike Ercolano (19:36): Let's go.John Esposito (19:36): I believe male is-Mike Ercolano (19:37):Let's go on here. A healthy range, according to this, is, I guess, between 20-Kelly Krauss (19:47): 18.5 to 25.Mike Ercolano (19:47): 18.5 to 25.John Esposito (19:48): Oh, wow. Okay.Mike Ercolano (19:49):Or 20 to 25. Yeah, 18.5 To 25.John Esposito (19:51):So, I mean, the average is probably between 25 and 35.Kelly Krauss (19:54): Yeah. Oh, yeah. Easy.John Esposito (19:56): At least.Mike Ercolano (19:56):Right. So, let's just take the average female. Average American female. Female height and weight.John Esposito (20:18): Let's say 5'6".Mike Ercolano (20:21):Sorry. This is all really good airtime right now while I Google this. All right, well this is as of 2016, but whatever. Close enough. A woman 20 years old and up, just under 5'4" and 170. So, that's the average female.Kelly Krauss (20:38):5'4", 170? Above 20?Mike Ercolano (20:40):That's what healthline.com says.Kelly Krauss (20:43): Wow, okay.Mike Ercolano (20:44): The average female-John Esposito (20:45): Surprised about that number.Mike Ercolano (20:46):Yeah. The average female weighs-Kelly Krauss (20:48): 5'4" is little.John Esposito (20:49): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (20:49): I'm 5'6".Mike Ercolano (20:52):This is a... Oh, that's the same website.John Esposito (20:57):170 was where I was at when I started with NextGen.Mike Ercolano (20:59):Women are generally considered tall in the United States. Yeah.John Esposito (21:01): I was-Mike Ercolano (21:01):Women are generally considered tall in the United States at 5'7", and the average height for women inthe United States is 5'4". It's another website saying that.35 (Final) - Isometric Training for Pain Managem... (Completed 10/07/21) Page 23 of 44 Transcript by Rev.comThis transcript was exported on Oct 10, 2021 - view latest version here. Kelly Krauss (21:06):Okay.Mike Ercolano (21:07):All right. So, 5'4", 170. Let's see if I can figure this thing out. Let's go to 170 and-Kelly Krauss (21:16):And the height's 5'4". This is exciting.Mike Ercolano (21:23): 5'4". It's right here.John Esposito (21:27):What, is that going to be 33, 34?Kelly Krauss (21:30):It's going to be up there.Mike Ercolano (21:30):It's in between, yeah. It's about 30. So-John Esposito (21:33): Oh, 30. Okay, yeah.Mike Ercolano (21:34):I mean, I guess I could just have Googled the average BMI of...Kelly Krauss (21:38):No, it's more to fun to watch you use this thing.Mike Ercolano (21:40):No, but my point of viewing this was because... So, the average, right, is right here. 5'4", 170. Boom.John Esposito (21:48): Yep.Mike Ercolano (21:48):All right, so now if every year it just creeps up by one pound. Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. Whatever. Allright, but the average person gained 29 pounds. So, that brings it up close to 190.John Esposito (22:01): [crosstalk 00:22:01] 190.Mike Ercolano (22:02):Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. All the way to 190, which now puts them close to the obese range. All right, so the average female, the average American female, was already on the borderline of being overweight and was probably going to get there according to the statistics.Kelly Krauss (22:19): Right.Mike Ercolano (22:21):But they accelerated how many? 29, 28 times or whatever it is in one year, right? In one year. And the issue with that is, and we've talked about it a gazillion times and we're going to continue to talk about it until things change, is that that right there is probably the biggest concern and cause, or the biggest concern we should have in this country, right? In terms of health, anyway. Because that is going to... If we look at economically, that's going to put the biggest strain on our system, which is also starting to wane because nurses are quitting and being fired. But that's a different topic.Mike Ercolano (23:08):But how many... If the average person is now going to be obese or close to obese after this pandemic, what's going to happen when the next generation catches up to this and, essentially, 80% of the country is obese? 70% of the country is obese. What's going to happen then? Where are we going to be at as a society, right?Mike Ercolano (23:34):And, I mean, in my opinion, that's where they want us to be. They want us to be reliant on drugs and healthcare and that's where the money's at. But what's going to change? If this past year didn't change your mind about your health, what's going to change?Kelly Krauss (23:52):Well, that's what I've said. If this didn't scare the shit out of you to get you thinking about your healthand being more serious about it nothing-John Esposito (24:00): Nothing's going to.Kelly Krauss (24:01): ... nothing will.Mike Ercolano (24:02): No.Kelly Krauss (24:03):I think, and then when people started hearing that even healthy people... Because you assume those people on ventilators were people who were heavy, who smoked, who didn't exercise, who didn't eatright. But then you were also hearing about those that were physically fit and stuff. That was like, "Oh,crap."John Esposito (24:20): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (24:20):But even more so... You definitely heard more so of the ones who were unhealthy.John Esposito (24:27): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (24:27):Of course. And those are just sensationalized cases that unfortunately do happen. And it doesn't... Thathappens with every disease and virus and issue. Yes, it happens, and it's sad. And I'm sorry it happens.Mike Ercolano (24:43):A friend of mine's friend... A friend of mine's good friend who I met died from a heart issue. He was probably late thirties, early forties. He got COVID, went to the hospital, came home, then died of a heart issue. They called it a widowmaker. They said that it was due to COVID.Mike Ercolano (25:00):Now, he already had that issue. It's not like he had a healthy heart and COVID came in and killed him. He had that heart issue that COVID exposed and probably accelerated it. That would have happened when he was maybe 65 or 60 or... Yes, that sucks. It's really, really sad. It's really... But the fact is, the average person who, or the person who died of COVID, was overweight, obese. 80%.Kelly Krauss (25:29):Or had other underlying conditions.Mike Ercolano (25:31):Almost three. Or I think it's over three now. I think they pushed it up over three. I'm trying to find... I'mon the... The CDC's website is very a pain in the ass.John Esposito (25:42): To navigate? Yeah.Mike Ercolano (25:44):Yeah. But anyway, I think it's over three the last time I saw. So, the average person who died of COVID ordied with COVID was 80 years old and had three-John Esposito (25:59): Underlying health condition?Mike Ercolano (26:01):Comorbidities. These issues that will kill them. So, we got to understand the numbers that we're looking at. And we got to understand the facts and the statistics. And I only say this because I know I have to say this right now. This is not an anti-vax rant. I'm not trying to say don't take the vaccine. If you feel like it's going to make you safe, then take it. If you don't feel like it's going to make you safe, then don't take it. That is your choice. And you don't have to tell me, I don't want to know. I don't care.Mike Ercolano (26:30):All right, this is not about that. All right? This is about the fact that this is an issue that is completely in our control, right? This is a lifestyle issue. It's completely in our control as a society. And no matter how you look at it, like I've started to say before, whether it's economically, it's going to put a huge strain on it. Whether it's socially, think about the amount of depression, the amount of...Mike Ercolano (26:52):I mean, we see suicides going up every year. That's not changing, that's not ending. We see drug use going up every year. That's not changing, that's not ending. These are all symptoms of a failing society, or of a dying society, and these are all symptoms that could be cured through a little bit of exercise and a little bit of-John Esposito (27:20): Proper nutrition?Mike Ercolano (27:21):Well... Right. I mean, that's not even that hard, right? I wasn't even going to say proper nutrition, I wasjust going to say paying a little bit closer attention to what you eat. Not eating the super-size meal.Kelly Krauss (27:33): Right.John Esposito (27:33): Yeah, go for the small.Mike Ercolano (27:35):One of my clients who has Asperger's. He's a functioning, great adult. He's a great guy. He's got Asperger's and so sometimes you have to talk to him on a different level and keep it more simple. And so, we're talking about his diet and he goes to a sandwich shop every day at lunch and gets his extra large sandwich. So we said, "Let's cut it down to the medium sandwich."Mike Ercolano (28:06):Go every day, I don't care. They have that medium sandwich. I talked to his mom the other day and his mom said he was going three days a week. He's on his own, and now he's eating protein and veggies only at night with his meal. This is not anything I talked to him about, but it-Kelly Krauss (28:24):That's so great.Mike Ercolano (28:24):Just because we kept it simple. We kept it simple, and it doesn't have to be complicated, right? It doesn't have to be this scary thing. Weight loss doesn't have to be a scary thing, getting healthier. But the solution isn't in whatever drug comes out next to fix whatever the next problem is. That is not the solution.Mike Ercolano (28:44):I know we go there almost all the time on the show, but I think it's our duty to do that because there's not enough real information being spewed. And I say spewed because it's all garbage. It's all propaganda bullshit. There's not enough people talking about the real truth about how to be healthy and how to not die from COVID, statistically speaking.John Esposito (29:11):It's just a whole bunch of small steps. Not really... Just you don't have to make any big leaps, no bigstrides.Kelly Krauss (29:16):Right, right, right. Right, exactly.John Esposito (29:16):It's just one little tiny thing at a time. Go out for a walk more than you would a week.Kelly Krauss (29:21):And also pay attention to yourself. Why are you overeating? You have to address those issues because they're not going to go away. You can take a magic pill, sure. But once you stop taking that magic pill, you haven't addressed the issue as to why you have the habits you have.Kelly Krauss (29:35):And, sure, it's uncomfortable, it's scary. But I think you feel better about yourself once you start making these changes and start identifying with yourself and saying, "Hey, I had a stressful day at work. Let me go for a walk instead of sit down and eat dinner right away." Or...Mike Ercolano (29:49):Well, it's proven. I mean, it's a fact that it changes your chemistry. Your depression is lessened, anxiety is lessened. It never goes away, especially if you're someone who's diagnosed with it who actually has a chemical thing, it doesn't go away. But exercise does lessen all of that.Kelly Krauss (30:08): Absolutely.Mike Ercolano (30:09):Exercise makes you a more productive human being in life. If you want to talk about protecting the people around you... All right, no, you can't spread fat to somebody else, of course, but you could absolutely spread your unhealthy lifestyle around to other people. You could definitely spread your own depression and your own-Kelly Krauss (30:34): Negativity.Mike Ercolano (30:34):... negativity to other people. You could be a burden in people's lives. And as blunt as that is, we could allbe that. We could all fall into that. You're either a burden or you're...Mike Ercolano (30:50):I don't know what the opposite of burden is. You're helping somebody or-Kelly Krauss (30:53): Part of the solution?Mike Ercolano (30:53):Part of their life. We all have those people. They're either negative energy or positive energy in our life. And unfortunately, sometimes those negative energies are family. We can't do anything about that, but I know I'm doing everything I can to cut out negative energy in my life that I can, that I could choose to cut out.John Esposito (31:13): Of course.Mike Ercolano (31:14):I have people who are drains on me I'm not necessarily associating with any more. And it's not because I dislike them as people, but they're a drain on me.John Esposito (31:26): It's for your own sake.Mike Ercolano (31:27):And someone who doesn't take care of their health and someone who doesn't pay attention to what their role is as a human being and actually puts themselves or puts their health as a precedent, doesn't really have the same values as I do.Mike Ercolano (31:45):And again, I have people who I'm really good friends with who are overweight, but they're trying really hard, right? They're working. It's not like I'm fat shaming anybody here, I'm just trying to draw a conclusion to... How many people who are miserable would be helped if they put exercise in their life?Kelly Krauss (32:10):Absolutely.Mike Ercolano (32:11): And healthy eating.John Esposito (32:13):And it's proven scientifically and practically.Mike Ercolano (32:16):Right. You want to follow the science? There's the science. The science is there. The science has beenthere for a long time, all right.John Esposito (32:22):Research has proven it time and time again, that it lowers symptoms of depression, lowers symptoms ofanxiety.Kelly Krauss (32:27):Right, so follow the science, right? Hasn't that been the saying over the past 18 months? Well, there it is.Mike Ercolano (32:32):Right, well that's become a cult thing.Kelly Krauss (32:34): Too lazy.Mike Ercolano (32:35):That's become a cult thing now in my opinion. Follow the science. That's like an identity almost. A lot of people who like to use that, it's almost like their whole being has been bought into that image. Or that it's like a religion in my view, as science is now religion. Science is... Not science itself, but the concept of science is used as religion now. And I think it's become very politicized, and science can't be really trusted anymore either. But that's neither here nor there, I guess. I don't know.Kelly Krauss (33:16): Mm-hmm (affirmative).John Esposito (33:22):I agree. There's too many benefits to not include some fitness into your life, whether it's something simple like a walk, or whether it's getting into a gym once a week. It's better than nothing. It's better than not moving. It's better than not going out and doing something. Even just getting sunlight helps with all those mental symptoms. And that's proven as well. That's proven through practice.Mike Ercolano (33:44):Well, yeah. I mean, that's, again, another proven way to lessen the symptoms of COVID is D3, right? Orat least they tie together, vitamin D3 and the symptoms of COVID.Mike Ercolano (34:02):So, I don't know. I don't know how I got off that rant again, talking about this shit. It's just frustrating. It's frustrating because there's a lot of fingers being pointed in a lot of directions that they shouldn't be pointed at. And in the past, I don't think they would have.Mike Ercolano (34:24):Just think back to 2018, 2019. Just think if in 2018 or '19 places were stopping people from eating at their restaurant because they didn't have a certain vaccine? In the name of health, right? That would never be going on back then. It would never be going on back then. Never. Right? We would think it's crazy. If another country was doing that?Kelly Krauss (34:50): Right.Mike Ercolano (34:53):We don't even see the shit that's happening in Australia and Canada right now. That shit's crazy. But if in 2018, if another country was banning people from eating at their restaurants because they didn't have a vaccine... Anyway, they'd be holding fucking rallies and having GoFundMes for the people with vaccine discrimination in Australia or something like that. Right? It would be completely different thing. But anyway.Kelly Krauss (35:27):It'd be a different time for sure.John Esposito (35:28): Absolutely.Mike Ercolano (35:29):Anyway. One thing you can control is, obviously, your health and that's where we were going with this,so...John Esposito (35:37):Yeah, take control of your health. Get some ownership of it. Make a change, even if it's a small change.One step at a time.Kelly Krauss (35:43): Yep.John Esposito (35:44):And it's just only going to better you, not worsen your life.Kelly Krauss (35:48):And nobody's ever said I've regretted doing that workout or that walk. Nobody's ever said that, so force yourself to go outside and go for that walk. It'll be worth it.John Esposito (35:58):Mm-hmm (affirmative). If you can commit to it and you keep yourself consistent with it, there's notgoing to be any regrets. It's going to be all benefit.Mike Ercolano (36:04): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (36:06):Mike, you're going to get your flu shot?Mike Ercolano (36:07):No. I have never gotten it. I've never gotten it before, and I don't see why I'll get it now.John Esposito (36:14):I haven't gotten it the past few years. I don't know if that's fitness-related, but I've just been feelinghealthier.Kelly Krauss (36:21):Oh, you haven't gotten the flu?Mike Ercolano (36:22): Oh, the flu.John Esposito (36:22):Yeah, I haven't gotten the flu shot either a few years.Kelly Krauss (36:24): Oh, yeah?John Esposito (36:24):Yeah, just because I haven't had any flu symptoms past couple of years.Mike Ercolano (36:28):Yeah, I got sick last year. I think it was COVID though. It was last-Kelly Krauss (36:31):That was February, I think. Right?Mike Ercolano (36:32):February. It was right before everything. So, I think that was COVID. But I don't know, I just...Kelly Krauss (36:39):But let me ask you this. Have you guys had the flu?John Esposito (36:42): Yeah in the past.Kelly Krauss (36:43): So, how bad was it?Mike Ercolano (36:44):I had it once in the past five year.John Esposito (36:47):I mean, I had the flu for four day spanned. It wasn't terrible. Obviously, it didn't feel good. My body feltlike it was achy, but it wasn't anything past that.Kelly Krauss (36:57): Right.Mike Ercolano (36:58):Yeah. From what I can remember, the flu kicked my ass last time, but-Kelly Krauss (37:00): Oh, it sucks.John Esposito (37:01): Oh, absolutely.Mike Ercolano (37:02): I didn't die.John Esposito (37:03): No.Mike Ercolano (37:03): I'm still here.Kelly Krauss (37:03):But it's putting your body through that, I think, is a win on the side of immunity and the side of health.Mike Ercolano (37:11):Well, I mean, here's the thing about immunity is that there's... Once you're exposed to a virus, your body has the memory cells of that immunity to that. So even if your antibodies are quote-unquote not there anymore, as soon as you're exposed to the virus again, right? Those antibodies will kick back in. Now, obviously there's different variants, just like we know all the shit, the Delta or whatever, and the different strands of flu every year and all this stuff. But once you've been exposed to it, your body has a memory to be able to fight that off again, even if you don't have the antibodies anymore. Even then.Mike Ercolano (37:51):So, there's a lot of misinformation about that. And all you have to do is look at the studies that have come out of Israel right now on COVID that show that it's significantly higher immunity to it if you've already had it versus having the vaccine.Kelly Krauss (38:09): Right.John Esposito (38:10): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (38:10):And that's science. That is science. That is proven science, but yet you're still not allowed to be exempt from the vaccine even if you show that you've had it. Because they're using antibodies as a way, which is just not scientifically and factually true. Because, yes, antibodies are there after you're exposed, but your body has cells in that remember, and when you're exposed again you have a lesser reaction to it. Right? Even if it is a different strain. Which is why they talk about the flu shot and, yes, you should get it because it might lessen your symptoms even if it is a different strain. It's the same shit. It's all the same shit. But if you're not healthy, it's going to suck anyway, right?Kelly Krauss (38:57):Yeah, it's going to be even worse.Mike Ercolano (38:58):It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If you're overweight and obese and if it's... Again, we said it the lastpodcast, we'll say it again.Mike Ercolano (39:05):If it's not COVID, if it's not the flu, if it's not whatever other shit has wiped out people in this world... If it's not one of those, it's going to be the next thing, because your health is the center stone for everything. And that's something you can control. We're just going the wrong direction as society.Kelly Krauss (39:28):Yep, totally. Well, we're good.John Esposito (39:31): Yes, we are.Kelly Krauss (39:32):My family's good.Mike Ercolano (39:32):Yeah, yeah. And, like you said, there's always those extremes. Point at the finger of look at the guywho's out running marathons every day and he died of a heart attack and whatever. Yeah.John Esposito (39:45): There's outliers in everything.Mike Ercolano (39:46): Right. We're all going to die.John Esposito (39:47): You can't just go off on-Mike Ercolano (39:47): We're all going to die.John Esposito (39:47): Right. Exactly, exactly.Mike Ercolano (39:50):So, we want to live our lives fighting, and we want to live our lives trying to be the best we can. Or wewant to live our lives-Kelly Krauss (39:57):And feeling the best you can, right?Mike Ercolano (39:58):And even more importantly, feeling the best you can.John Esposito (40:00): Absolutely.Mike Ercolano (40:01):So, if you're on that scale, unfortunately, of the 29 pound increase, do something about it now. Don't wait. It's going to suck the longer you wait, it's going to get harder and it's going to get harder and then eventually you're not going to do it. Don't put it off. Start tomorrow. Start tonight. Start as soon as you get done listening to this show. Go out for a walk or do some jumping jacks or do something and start today. Start immediately. Don't wait till Monday, because Monday will always be pushed back to the following Monday.John Esposito (40:40):Make that commitment to yourself.Mike Ercolano (40:42):Right. If you dangle that carrot, you'll always chase that carrot. But you got to take a bite of it right now. I don't know. I don't know how to change that analogy to make it get it. But yeah, get it. Do something. Start moving.John Esposito (41:00): I like that.Mike Ercolano (41:01): Do you?John Esposito (41:02): [crosstalk 00:41:02] culture.Mike Ercolano (41:02): Do you like that?John Esposito (41:03):Chase the carrot. Get a bit of it.Kelly Krauss (41:05):Yeah. Let's stick with that one.Mike Ercolano (41:08):All right, yeah. So, if you're over... Well, I mean, don't bite the carrot though, because we're trying tomake you lose weight. So...John Esposito (41:14): True.Mike Ercolano (41:15):If you're... Well, no, a carrot's healthy though.Kelly Krauss (41:16):Well, what are you talking about?Mike Ercolano (41:16):We're not telling you not to eat.Kelly Krauss (41:16):Carrots are good.Mike Ercolano (41:16): Yeah, all right.Kelly Krauss (41:16):It's the candy bar. You don't want to eat the candy bar.Mike Ercolano (41:21):Oh, yeah. Halloween coming up.John Esposito (41:23): Don't chase the candy bar.Mike Ercolano (41:24):My [crosstalk 00:41:24] really show on that.Kelly Krauss (41:24):What's your favorite candy?John Esposito (41:27): Oh.Mike Ercolano (41:28): Probably Reese's, I guess.Kelly Krauss (41:30): Peanut Butter Cups?Mike Ercolano (41:31): Yeah, probably.Kelly Krauss (41:31): Little or the full one?John Esposito (41:31): Boring.Mike Ercolano (41:33):No, I actually like the dark chocolate thins.Kelly Krauss (41:36):Oh, yes, I'll give you that.John Esposito (41:37):Oh, yeah.Mike Ercolano (41:38):I could pop those like fucking candy.Kelly Krauss (41:39): Are they frozen?Mike Ercolano (41:40):No, I don't like them frozen.John Esposito (41:42):I'm a Sour Patch Kid sort of guy.Kelly Krauss (41:45):I tell my kids that's such cancer candy.John Esposito (41:46):I know it is, but it's just so good.Kelly Krauss (41:49): Are you serious?John Esposito (41:50): I love Sour Patch Kids.Kelly Krauss (41:50):I really thought people grew out of the Sour Patch phase.John Esposito (41:54): Nope.Mike Ercolano (41:54):I like the Sour Patch weed gummies.Kelly Krauss (41:55): Oh.John Esposito (41:58): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (41:59): Yeah. We get those.John Esposito (42:02):That's interesting. Yeah, I like my Sour Patch.Kelly Krauss (42:03):Are you a gummy type person? Gummy bears, gummy worms.John Esposito (42:07):Yeah, gummy bears used to be my favorite thing when I was younger.Kelly Krauss (42:09): Really?John Esposito (42:09): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (42:11): [crosstalk 00:42:11].Mike Ercolano (42:11): I'm a chocolate guy.Kelly Krauss (42:11): Yeah, me too.John Esposito (42:12):If it was chocolate, it would have to be a Baby Ruth bar. I love my Baby Ruths.Mike Ercolano (42:15): With all the nuts in it?Kelly Krauss (42:16):You know what that looks like.Mike Ercolano (42:18):Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, on that note, I guess we should end the show considering we just rantedfor 30 minutes about losing weight and now we're going to talk about candy Kelly Krauss (42:27):Mike Ercolano (42:31):No, that's true. Because we can in moderation right.Kelly Krauss (42:34):Balance. It's all about balance.John Esposito (42:34):At least we talked about 90 degree eccentrics at one point too.Mike Ercolano (42:36): That is true.Kelly Krauss (42:38):We could dangle... You're at the 90 degree squat, right? And then you're dangling the Reese's Pieces infront of your face. Don't bite the-Mike Ercolano (42:44): The Reese's Pieces?Kelly Krauss (42:45):Don't bite... Oh, the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.Mike Ercolano (42:47):Just dangling one Reese's. How are you going to thread that up? You going to wrap it around?Kelly Krauss (42:52):I don't know. I might have to take out the glue gun.Mike Ercolano (42:54): Mm.John Esposito (42:54): Mm.Kelly Krauss (42:55): To make that happen.Mike Ercolano (42:55):Make sure it's a non-toxic glue.Mike Ercolano (43:00): Perfect.Kelly Krauss (43:01): That's what I'll do.Mike Ercolano (43:02): Melt down one of mine.Kelly Krauss (43:03): Yeah, okay. Even better.Mike Ercolano (43:06):All right. Well, I am officially out of time, so-John Esposito (43:08): Ending that rant.Mike Ercolano (43:09): Yeah, we're ending it there.Kelly Krauss (43:11): That was fun.Mike Ercolano (43:11):But thank you again, guys, for listening to this episode. Episode number 35. Please do us a favor. Sharethe show, like it, comment, leave a review. I don't know why-John Esposito (43:25): Give us suggestions.Mike Ercolano (43:27):... I don't ever talk about in the beginning of the show... Planning ahead. I don't ever why I don't plan to-Kelly Krauss (43:32): The closing?Mike Ercolano (43:33):... know what to actually say because I don't even know what you're supposed to do. But help us out alittle bit. We appreciate it.Bye, guys.Kelly Krauss (43:42): I don't-Mike Ercolano (43:42):You have something to say?Kelly Krauss (43:43):No, I'm just saying I don't think you have to tell people all that stuff. When you listen to podcasts, areyou listening to them rant and rave? Rant at the end about liking us?Mike Ercolano (43:52): Yeah.John Esposito (43:52): I think most times-Kelly Krauss (43:53): The whole thing?John Esposito (43:53):I think most times they hear it in the beginning.Mike Ercolano (43:55):Most times in the beginning-Kelly Krauss (43:56): It's usually scripted.Mike Ercolano (43:56): ... and/or at the end.John Esposito (43:57): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (43:57): Yeah.Kelly Krauss (43:58):And you listen to that every time you listen to the same podcast? You listen to that every time?Yeah.John Esposito (44:02):You get this, "Thank you to our promoters," or "Thank you to our sponsors."Mike Ercolano (44:08):Yeah, I listen to it. Or I just skip past 30 seconds.John Esposito (44:10): Yeah.Mike Ercolano (44:12): So...Kelly Krauss (44:13): All right.Mike Ercolano (44:13):And, supposedly, it helps significantly. Asking people to do it significantly helps.Kelly Krauss (44:19):Right. I'm just saying it could be a quick, "Like our podcast. Comment. We always love to hear from you."Mike Ercolano (44:25):Well, yeah. Well, that's what I mean. I never know what to say, so I always drag it on. That's my wholepoint of this is that I don't know how to end it. But man, I should really do a better-Kelly Krauss (44:34):Okay. I guess my point was it should be short and sweet.Mike Ercolano (44:35):Well, right. And I should do a better job of it. That was the point of what I was saying is that I got to do abetter job of the closing.Kelly Krauss (44:42): Okay.Mike Ercolano (44:43): Yes. All right, so now-Kelly Krauss (44:45):Well, now that we've cleared that up.This transcript was exported on Oct 10, 2021 - view latest version here. Mike Ercolano (44:46):Now that we've... Yes. Like the show. Bye.

Trash Box is back after a week hiatus (it was a family wedding, give me a goddamn break!), and I missed you. I did. Three really strong eps of Housewives to recap/snark on this week, but first I talk a bit about the new LA Times interview with Garcelle, Sutton, and Crystal. Worth a read, very entertaining! First up is the finale of Beverly Hills, where I Google everybody's net worth, fawn over Crystal's Chinese New Year party, champion Sutton, and wish bad things on the Fox Force Five (I guess we're still including the Ghost of Teddi Mellencamp?). Then it's over to Potomac where Candiace gets so, so mean! Then Salt Lake City, where we witness the extremely satisfying takedown of Lisa Barlow, via new girl Angie.   Next week it's Part One of the BH Reunion! Eeeee!   Follow us on Twitter @thetrashboxpod and on Instagram @trashboxhousewives. Like, subscribe, (positively, PLEASE, I'm so sensitive) review us on all the apps you have on your phone. Thanks for listening!

It's Saturday morning. Late. Pushing noon. And I've got some work to do. Computer work. Website updates. Video editing. Some voice work. General catching up. I usually do one of two things: a) fire up my iTunes library and don the headphones to listen to whatever strikes my fancy at the moment or b) I fire up the TV here inside The Yellow Studio and find something to watch (well, more accurately, something to be on in the background). Insomnia usually provokes music. Saturday mornings usually provoke TV. Especially during college football season. Today, I go to Amazon Prime because I've been meaning to watch the Val Kilmer documentary, VAL. The one about his life. My Val Kilmer fandom centers around The Saint. It's a 1997 movie with Elizabeth Shue. I'm a big fan of hers, too - thanks to that movie. It's one of the few movies I bought on DVD. I still have it. I launch the documentary, with subtitles on so I can kinda sorta keep up while doing other things. But within minutes I stop doing anything else. I'm intently watching this thing, narrated by his son because Val recovered from throat cancer which left him unable to speak without the aid of a vibrator attached to his neck. I Google him because I don't know how old he is. He's 61. I'm 64. It's impossible not to make comparisons. Especially when it comes to health. He confesses that he was the first person he ever knew to have a video camera. And he used it. A lot. All the time. So much so, that he has boxes and boxes and boxes of videotapes he's shot through the years. And writings. And scrapbooks. Material chronicling his life, a story he desperately wants to tell. But now he's not got the voice for it. His son does. A son who looks and sounds like him. Deep into the movie he's sobbing as he puts a large necklace belonging to his deceased mother around his neck. Her absence still hits him hard. His mother divorced his dad when Val was 8. Repeated infidelities took their toll on her. His dad, a real estate developer, wanted to be among the largest landowners in California. So much so that his dad, at one point unable to get a loan, asked Val to co-sign on some massive land deals. Val agreed. He said, without hesitation. Even gave his dad power of attorney, which his father used to form 20 or more shell companies to avoid paying taxes. Until it finally caught up with him. Facing the prospect of suing his own father or writing a check that would exhaust his personal wealth, Val said: I wrote the check and went to work. Should he have? I'm sure many think he should have kept his money and refused to bail out his unscrupulous father. But it was his money to do with as he wanted. From the sound of it, he didn't deliberate much. He wrote the check, then got back to work to earn more money. Don't worry about the money you're not making. Besides, you'll earn more. Focusing On Our Loss & Lack It's easy to dwell on our losses and what we don't have. Easier when the losses and lack are extensive, but it's not helpful. Okay, it might be helpful if your stupidity contributed to the loss - you wanna make sure you learn not to repeat the mistake. I know 'cause I've got a litany of such errors in my wake. The most expensive of them was $50,000. I gave it to a person I thought was a friend. It's a long story I'd rather forget, but every now and again it bubbles back up and irks me to no end. Mostly, because I was duped by a man who I thought I could trust. I was wrong! He was unscrupulous, dishonest, and a consummate liar. I was stupid! Really...really...really stupid. But I learned. I've not "invested" money with anybody since. I give people money if I can afford to and want to - with no expectation to get it back. Ever. I don't loan money. Period. I'd never make it as a venture capitalist. :D For starters, I'm too poor. For another, I hate losing money. See what I mean? Focusing on losses stirs up nothing positive!

Content expert Marna Palmer works with nurse writers frequently in her role at studioID. Learn what she seeks in a “unicorn” freelance writer. Episode Summary Marna Palmer is the Director of Operations at studioID, a major content marketing agency and brand studio. Every day she works with clinician writers and has some great insights into how nurses can differentiate themselves in LOIs, what studioID looks for in a nurse writer, and exactly what you should do when following up on an LOI to rise to the top of the list. About Marna Palmer: If Marna could create her own business card it would say "Professional Cat Herder," as that has been the most consistent theme of her career; from celebrities to creatives, she finds talent, helps it grow and assists in keeping everyone organized while making money in the process. She spent the first 10 years of her career as a talent agent in Los Angeles negotiating commercial endorsements for her celebrity clients. She then went to the other side of the desk and joined a marketing startup, where she led the publishing team's B2C digital marketing efforts and thus began her work with freelance writers. Since then, she has worked with content creators of all kinds around the world; at companies in Los Angeles, Oslo, Norway and now at studioID in Washington, DC. Host Elizabeth Hanes BSN RN built a six-figure writing business in her spare time. Today, she coaches other nurses how to become freelance writers through the RN2writer project. Topics discussed in this episode Here's a sampling of what you can learn in this episode: - The huge role that clips and a portfolio play in whether or not an agency brings you on as a writer [6:06] - Why showcasing your subject matter expertise as a nurse can win you a role with an agency [8:20] - How studioID built such an amazing culture by seeking input from their freelance writers [9:59] - What is the distinction between B2C and B2B marketing? [11:01] - What are the top three attributes of the “unicorn” freelancer? [14:58] - How nurses can use content marketing to elevate their own brand [20:02] - The importance of having an online presence [21:14] - What is the real future of healthcare content marketing? Is this a bad time to jump in as a nurse writer? [24:06] - Should aspiring content marketing writers develop their journalism skills? [26:16] - The best way to follow up on LOIs without being annoying [27:45] Quotable “As someone who's looking for freelance writers, if I go onto someone's LinkedIn profile and I don't see anything, I'm like, ‘Ooh.' Or if I Google them, and I can't find a website, I have no idea if I should take a chance on them.” – Marna Palmer, studioID “There are so many non-writing skills that are equally or more important to editors and clients: being easygoing, being flexible, being fun to work with, meeting the deadline. Writing skill – while you need it, and you should continue to hone it – is not at the top of the list of what clients value necessarily in a nurse who writes.” – Elizabeth Hanes “Prospective clients are not going to look at your blog to see how well you write. They're going to look to see if you're up on the industry trends, and do you know what's going on in the industry, and then how are you explaining that through your prose.” – Elizabeth Hanes “I think the content marketing industry in healthcare is just going to constantly expand. I don't think there's every going to be a shortage of [writing opportunities].” – Marna Palmer, studioID “If you're showing up in my inbox at a reasonable cadence with relevant content so that I don't have to go [searching] on LinkedIn, you're making my life easier.” – Marna Palmer, studioID Resources mentioned in this episode studioID: https://www.studioid.com/ Industry Dive: https://www.industrydive.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com Next steps Download and listen to the podcast of this episode at RN2writer Start your journey from nursing to writing with the ebook Design Your Dream Career as a Nurse Writer Follow RN2writer on social media: Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn

Why Satellite Internet Providers Tell us Where to Send Mail (LA 1584) Transcript: Steven Butala: Steve and Jill here. Jill DeWit: Hello. Steven Butala: Welcome to The Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Jill DeWit: And I'm Jill Dewitt, broadcasting from The Valley of the Sun. You like that? Steven Butala: I like it. Today, Jill and I talk about why satellite internet providers are continuously telling us where to send mail. This is a good thing. Jill DeWit: I wrote down a different reason as to why we care about this. And I'll share that when we get into the meat of the show, but I got to tell you, I was struggling, "Do I say Scottsdale? Do I say Phoenix? Where do I say we are?" And I forgot that this was always called The Valley of the Sun. Isn't that interesting? Steven Butala: I think there's more than one Valley of the Sun. Everybody thinks they're The Valley of the Sun. Jill DeWit: When you Google Valley of the Sun, though, Phoenix comes up. Steven Butala: Really? Jill DeWit: I made sure. I'm like, seriously. Steven Butala: Do you Google stuff, Jill? Jill DeWit: All the time. I Google you. I Google... I'm just kidding. Of course. Steven Butala: I read recently that Google, as a product, it is the single most used product for a consumer in the history of all products. Jill DeWit: Really? What did you say Google was supposed to be? Remember you said that- Steven Butala: It's misspelled. It's supposed to be G-O-O G-E-L. And it's some type of cipher God. It's some type of scientific something. Jill DeWit: Really G-E-L and then- Steven Butala: Scientific measurement or something. Jill DeWit: But it didn't look right. Somebody just like- Steven Butala: They misspelled it right from the beginning and it just stuck, which is probably kind of cool because now it's obviously an incredible brand. Jill DeWit: It's a verb. It's a noun. It's all kinds of things. Okay. Steven Butala: Before we get into it, though, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the Land Investors.com online community. It's free and don't forget to subscribe on The Land Academy YouTube channel and comment on the shows that you like. You don't have to comment on the shows that you hate. If you comment on the shows that you like, then we do more content about stuff you like. Jill DeWit: That's really good. The shows you love, please just go for it. Steven Butala: All kidding aside, it really does help us develop an algorithm to create content that people want to hear about. Like, maybe you're not interested in hearing me rant about California. Jill DeWit: Or this show at all. That's so funny. I couldn't tell you the day... Since now we're off topic... We're on Clubhouse [crosstalk 00:02:32]. So, we're on Clubhouse the other day and there was that guy... I can't tell if he was trying to break into our show. Steven Butala: Yeah. He totally was. Jill DeWit: Oh, was he? Okay. Or if he was like yelling at somebody on the street. Steven Butala: No, no. I think he was breaking in. He broke into our show. Jill DeWit: And just was cussing. Steven Butala: This is the world now. Jill DeWit: That was funny. So, my team got him off there, to quote you, "Lickedy split." Steven Butala: I just read a thing about this whole thing about the internet culture, how it's developing. I'm old enough to know when there was no internet at all. And so... Jill DeWit: You're older than me. Steven Butala: Right. And my parents would say stuff like, "Keep your opinions to yourself." That was just the world that I grew up in. And that's just not the way it is now. Everybody's really encouraged to have an opinion and be real loud about it with filthy language and everything. That's just like a norm. That's a normal state of the internet. Jill DeWit: I don't get it. Steven Butala: I don't either. Jill DeWit: Anyway, let's get back to the show. Ty wrote, "Anyone else getting first mailer jitters?" Oh,

Why Satellite Internet Providers Tell us Where to Send Mail (LA 1584) Transcript: Steven Butala: Steve and Jill here. Jill DeWit: Hello. Steven Butala: Welcome to The Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Jill DeWit: And I'm Jill Dewitt, broadcasting from The Valley of the Sun. You like that? Steven Butala: I like it. Today, Jill and I talk about why satellite internet providers are continuously telling us where to send mail. This is a good thing. Jill DeWit: I wrote down a different reason as to why we care about this. And I'll share that when we get into the meat of the show, but I got to tell you, I was struggling, "Do I say Scottsdale? Do I say Phoenix? Where do I say we are?" And I forgot that this was always called The Valley of the Sun. Isn't that interesting? Steven Butala: I think there's more than one Valley of the Sun. Everybody thinks they're The Valley of the Sun. Jill DeWit: When you Google Valley of the Sun, though, Phoenix comes up. Steven Butala: Really? Jill DeWit: I made sure. I'm like, seriously. Steven Butala: Do you Google stuff, Jill? Jill DeWit: All the time. I Google you. I Google... I'm just kidding. Of course. Steven Butala: I read recently that Google, as a product, it is the single most used product for a consumer in the history of all products. Jill DeWit: Really? What did you say Google was supposed to be? Remember you said that- Steven Butala: It's misspelled. It's supposed to be G-O-O G-E-L. And it's some type of cipher God. It's some type of scientific something. Jill DeWit: Really G-E-L and then- Steven Butala: Scientific measurement or something. Jill DeWit: But it didn't look right. Somebody just like- Steven Butala: They misspelled it right from the beginning and it just stuck, which is probably kind of cool because now it's obviously an incredible brand. Jill DeWit: It's a verb. It's a noun. It's all kinds of things. Okay. Steven Butala: Before we get into it, though, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the Land Investors.com online community. It's free and don't forget to subscribe on The Land Academy YouTube channel and comment on the shows that you like. You don't have to comment on the shows that you hate. If you comment on the shows that you like, then we do more content about stuff you like. Jill DeWit: That's really good. The shows you love, please just go for it. Steven Butala: All kidding aside, it really does help us develop an algorithm to create content that people want to hear about. Like, maybe you're not interested in hearing me rant about California. Jill DeWit: Or this show at all. That's so funny. I couldn't tell you the day... Since now we're off topic... We're on Clubhouse [crosstalk 00:02:32]. So, we're on Clubhouse the other day and there was that guy... I can't tell if he was trying to break into our show. Steven Butala: Yeah. He totally was. Jill DeWit: Oh, was he? Okay. Or if he was like yelling at somebody on the street. Steven Butala: No, no. I think he was breaking in. He broke into our show. Jill DeWit: And just was cussing. Steven Butala: This is the world now. Jill DeWit: That was funny. So, my team got him off there, to quote you, "Lickedy split." Steven Butala: I just read a thing about this whole thing about the internet culture, how it's developing. I'm old enough to know when there was no internet at all. And so... Jill DeWit: You're older than me. Steven Butala: Right. And my parents would say stuff like, "Keep your opinions to yourself." That was just the world that I grew up in. And that's just not the way it is now. Everybody's really encouraged to have an opinion and be real loud about it with filthy language and everything. That's just like a norm. That's a normal state of the internet. Jill DeWit: I don't get it. Steven Butala: I don't either. Jill DeWit: Anyway, let's get back to the show. Ty wrote, "Anyone else getting first mailer jitters?" Oh,

I Google if there were any more stimulus checks and the answer was no --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/j-w54/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/j-w54/support

Charli Prangley is the Creative Director at ConvertKit. Charli has a bachelor's degree in design, with an emphasis on visual communication, from Massey University. Before working at ConvertKit, Charli worked as a designer for companies such as Mitsubishi Electric, Xero, and her own Liner Note Kids.Born in New Zealand, Charli now lives in Valencia, Spain. She is passionate about helping creatives improve their craft and process, as well as working on her own side projects. When she's not working at ConvertKit, Charli creates weekly content on her YouTube channel and podcast, Design Life, where she shares insights about working as a professional designer, and gives tutorials and advice on design tools and concepts.In this episode, you'll learn: How to balance your side hustle with a full-time job How Charli turns curiosities into money-makers Why newsletter creators need a YouTube presence Charli's tips for getting more YouTube subscribers Links & Resources ConvertKit Basecamp Webflow Johnnie Gomez Pallet Sahil Bloom The Bloomboard Jessica Hische Charli's Links Follow Charli on Twitter: @charliprangley Watch Charli on YouTube Design Life Podcast on Twitter: @DesignLifeFM Design Life Podcast website Charli's website Episode TranscriptCharli: [00:00:00]I want to show people the real life of a professional designer; the projects that I work on, how I work on them, how I make decisions, the challenges that I run into along the way. That's the kind of thing that I'm looking to share. And then that sort of lens frames all my content. Not just on YouTube; it's also the newsletter, the book, anything I tweet, as well.It sort of all comes from this.Nathan: [00:00:31]In this episode I talk to Charli Prangley. Charli is the Creative Director at ConvertKit. She and I have actually worked together for four-and-a-half years, and during that time, well, actually before she joined ConvertKit, she'd built a popular YouTube channel about design—specifically marketing design.She's at over 200 or right about 200,000 subscribers on YouTube, which incredible.She's got all kinds of projects.In this episode, we dive into things about design. She and I are both designers, so we love those topics.We talk about side hustles, and how you balance that with a full-time job. Her career, moving up the ladder, becoming Creative Director at ConvertKit, and all the other things she wants to create.What gives her energy; what doesn't.We talk about sharing things about money online, and how that can be a tough topic.She shares her income, she does videos about salary and making income from side hustles, so we talk about those details, and then we talk about as a newsletter creator, is YouTube something that you want to pursue?And tips and tricks and ideas for that.Anyway, I'll get out of the way, and we'll dive into the episode.Charli, thanks for joining me:Charli: [00:01:42]Yeah. Thanks having me. I'm excited—honored to be on the Nathan Berry show.Nathan: [00:01:47]That's right. I'm glad it gets that kind of enthusiasm.Is only because we've worked together for so long?Charli: [00:01:59]Maybe, I don't know, honestly, actually I'd probably more excited to be on if we hadn't worked together for so long.Nathan: [00:02:04]That's right. You're actually like, “Fine, fine. I'll come on your podcast. But to be clear, I'm doing it during works hours, and you're paying for this.”Charli: [00:02:12]Yeah. This is a favor to you.Nathan: [00:02:14]Yeah. Whereas separately, because maybe if we hadn't spent the last four years working together, then, then you'd actually really want to do it.All right. Well, maybe let's start there because we have spent the last four years working together, four-and-a-half.Charli: [00:02:33]Yeah.Nathan: [00:02:33]And yeah. So coming, approaching five this fall. The first thing that I want to ask you about is how you think about all the different things that you're doing as a creator.As I mentioned in the intro you've got, you know, the YouTube channel, you have a podcast, you have a newsletter and everything else.And I, I just love to hear how you think about the intersection of those things. And then we can get into the intersection of a full-time role, and all the full-time creator things.So what's the, like Charli's creative landscape?Charli: [00:03:06]Ooh, I like that. I would say that I'm aiming to make the kind of content that would have helped out, you know, like the me from two years ago.And that's kind of been my approach the whole time through. So when I started, maybe I was making stuff more for beginners, and every now and then I will still, but I'm trying to like level up my audience as well as I level up in my career.And I love the term creator. I feel like it's definitely the best way to describe me because I'm not just a YouTuber. I'm not just a podcaster, or just a blogger, or a writer, or whatever.I do all the things like wherever I feel drawn to create in whichever method I feel like will best express the thing that I'm trying to teach or share is what I lean into.Nathan: [00:03:49]Yeah. that makes sense. Uh that's how I feel, like, you can't put me in a box.Charli: [00:03:54]Yeah, no. How dare you.Nathan: [00:03:55]The only box that I'm willing to accept is a giant all-encompassing freeform box of creator.Charli: [00:04:01]That molds, and like, changes shape as you do. Yeah.Nathan: [00:04:04]Yeah, exactly.Okay. So you have all of these things. Maybe your most recent thing that I want to talk about is Inside Marketing or Inside Marketing Design is that marketing would be an entirely thing.We're talking Inside Marketing and Design. I'd love to hear first, why you wanted to start that, and maybe the seed, the direction a little bit.I've heard you talk about like design being so focused. People either talk like graphic design, or they talk product design, you know. So, we're like into user experience, user interface.I'm curious how marketing design fits into that and your, your desires there?Charli: [00:04:42]Yeah. So, honestly Inside Marketing Design started as much with my content does, which is, I wish this existed. It doesn't exist. Maybe I'll be the one to make it.I found myself just like really wanting to hear about how other companies set up their marketing design teams, how their marketing designers get work done.And when you searched around for like, I dunno, medium articles and things like that, it's all about product design. It's all about product design teams, UX design teams, and how they work with engineers.And I'm like, what about the marketing design side of things? It's super important, especially in tech where most marketing design happens, most marketing, sorry, happens online and you need the digital design to make that happen.A brand is super important. Building up a company to, you know, a high level. And I just think it's completely underappreciated marketing design in the industry.And so it's like my personal mission to raise up the profile of marketing design eyes wider in the design industry and tech industry. And yeah, Inside Marketing Design interview show, that was completely self-indulgent where I got on calls with designers who work at other tech companies and learned about how they did that.Nathan: [00:05:51]I feel like the best podcasts and newsletters and things like that are completely self-indulgent they come from this natural curiosity, like that's where this show comes from. It's just like, these are the people that I want to talk to. And there'll be more likely to say yes to talk to me if it's for a podcast, you know, because otherwise like you end up in the, can I pick your brain thing?And that's like, Nope, no, no, no, no. Like bat goes in a very special bucket of, of emails. But if you're like, can I have you on your podcast? You're asking 90% of the same thing, you know, and the best questions are the ones where I'm like, I genuinely want to know this.Charli: [00:06:28]Totally. Yeah, exactly. That's definitely the approach I take to it. and since then, I've been, I've been surprised by the response that the number of people who are also interested in this very specific niche thing I was interested in as well, you know, it definitely has a way smaller audience than if it was perhaps a product design podcast or a UX design podcast, but that's kind of the point, right?Is I want to make content for this niche, this very underserved, I believe niche in particular.Nathan: [00:06:55]What's interesting is that I feel like, the market exists. Like, I'll be, obviously there's lots of marketing designers, right? Cause all going to the like every time Stripe comes out with a feature most beautiful page ever, you know, and all of this, right. we look at, even just within the Nisha software, like all of the design is so beautiful today compared to what it was even five years ago.And so obviously there's marketing designers everywhere. It's just that the content hasn't caught up with that, for whatever I feel like the UX designers and, and the freelancers have been so much more prolific in like content of this is how I run my business and this is how we structure our teams.And so it feels to me like the market. It's not that the market is small. It's that? it's just not established yet. There's not big of a community,Charli: [00:07:49]Yep. Totally. And there's not even one specific term, like even marketing design, some companies would call it brand design. Some would call it just web design, the creative team. I don't know. There's lots of different terms for it. So yeah, I guess I'm also trying to like unify us all under this marketing design umbrella as well, because it is it's design that helps market product or service.Nathan: [00:08:10]Yeah, totally. I, it takes someone to like, Hey. this is the term that we're all using. Just gives you're wondering, that, you know what you mean is marketing design. who are some people that you've had on the podcast that are particular companies that you've interviewed where you're like, we're really excited to dive in and learn what they were doing.Charli: [00:08:31]Yeah. So I was really excited to have it start out from base camp on the first season, back when he was still at base camp. and I don't know, it was just really interesting to learn about how they, how they do things. same with Webflow had Johnny Gomez from workflow on I've been a big fan of workflow for a very long time.So, yeah, digging in and hearing more about the day-to-day because it's one thing to just look at a company's marketing site or their marketing materials. And it's another to hear about the process that went into producing it. And like, where does this designer sit within the org structure of the company?How do they do things? So yeah, we go into lots of nerdy details like that, and it's been fun. I feel like I've learned from, you know, doing the episodes myself. Like, one thing that Johnny actually brought up is that when he's designing sites for web. He would write the copy for them as well. Like he doesn't use lorem ipsum or fill a copy.He'll like write real copy. And I would usually write like, sort of like a placeholder copy that indicated what I wanted to say. Like, it would be like headline about this. but since then, since that interview with Johnny, I've leaned in more to like, okay, let me just try it. Let me just try, write a headline.And you know, the writer can come in and fix it up later if they want to. But yeah, there's been lots of cool little, little learnings that have helped me in my process and yeah, I hope has helped the audience too.Nathan: [00:09:47]That's interesting. I feel like people do this with every skill that they're not, that they don't feel confident in. I was going to say competent, but often they're competent in skills that they don't actually like competent and confident. you know, don't always co-exist. And so I think that with design there's a lot of people who are like, oh, that's design.I can't like, I'm not a designer. I can't touch it. And you know, I'm always trying to use tools. Like pick-me-up like gradually drop people in and be like, oh, but what if you tried? And you know, and like, yeah, maybe it looks terrible, but here's this process. And I feel like copywriting is one of those things where people are like, I don't know how to do that.I'm not a copywriter. I'm, I'm a designer. I'm whatever else. And it's like, okay, but if you had to, what would this headline say? Oh, would probably say something like. Okay. Like, that's probably 70% there, you know? And then like if you had to write a better one, what would it say, oh, maybe it'd be this, you know?And, and that being able to jump in, like, you'll find often that you're competent, even before you're confident in those skills.So, you've got the podcast. Well, actually really quick. You said something about the podcast that you said, you mentioned seasons. how do you think about, doing in seasons and how does that fit into like your workflow,Charli: [00:11:06]Yeah, I wanted to do it in seasons because this is actually my second podcast. I have one called design life that I've been running with a co-host for years. And that is not one will seasons. It's sort of like an every week thing. Although we are on a break at the moment, and INathan: [00:11:19]Like a Ross and Rachel style break or what kind of break.Charli: [00:11:22]Uh we're on like a summer break.Nathan: [00:11:24]Okay. Okay. So everyone knows you're on break. It's not you think you're on a break and your cohost doesn't you areCharli: [00:11:31]Yeah, exactly.Nathan: [00:11:33]I've been watching friends lately. Can't help it .Charli: [00:11:36]So, I knew that I wanted to do Inside Marketing Design and seasons because of just how much work it is to do podcasts constantly. I thought I could package, like have my goal was 10 to 12 interviews. To correlate them into a season and also do a wrap up episode at the end of the season, just covering some of the things that I learned.Some highlights, things like that to tie a little bow on it. And, yeah, I'm starting the prep work for season two right now. my goal is to do one season a year of yeah. 10 to 12 episodes eachNathan: [00:12:07]Nice. What I like about that is you're able to be deliberate about what you're committing to. You can start it when you actually have like energy and momentum towards Um and then it's also a fixed commitment.Charli: [00:12:22]YesNathan: [00:12:22]Saying, I don't know what the analogy is. Like you're not even hopping on the treadmill or if you are here, like this is a five mile brightener, this is a three mile run or whatever.Right. And then you're like, and then I'm going to hop off instead of being like, Hey, I'm gonna get on this treadmill and I'm going to do it until I get burnt out and regret doing it. And then I'll quit about three months after that.Charli: [00:12:42]Yup. Yup, exactly that. And I would compare it more to a marathon than a five mile run, but, you know, just get technicalNathan: [00:12:49]Some of us are more ambitious than So what's the, like, going back to the creator landscape, in your world, you've got the podcast. It seems like that is the main driver, the main source of new content, for, Inside Marketing Design. But you've also got a newsletter, a job board and then a book coming.So how do you think about the other other aspects?Charli: [00:13:13]Yeah. So, the newsletter I started, honestly, I feel like it was from something that I'd seen you write, talking like building up your authority on, it was probably in authority actually. Now that I think about it, building up your authority on a topic before you're going to release, you know, paid product about it.And so I thought, well, this would be a really great way for me to generate like a warm audience of people who interested in marketing design. If I start a marketing design newsletter, so it's called the marketing design dispatch and it goes out on Mondays and. It's sometimes it's like a little essay.Maybe it's like even a piece of writing that I've been doing for the book that I'm writing about marketing design, or maybe it's a deep dive into analyzing a new marketing website that I've seen a rebrand, something like that, as well as sharing content that has been useful for me or that I've seen around the internet.And yeah, I've had a good response to it so far. Cause I, I started just sending it out to my existing list and yeah, I gave people the option to opt out of getting it if they didn't want to. And maybe like a couple hundred people did that, but the most, the majority of my list is stayed around for it, which has been cool.Nathan: [00:14:19]Yeah. So how, how big is that list? And then where did that existing list come from?Charli: [00:14:24]Hmm. So the current list is 18,000 subscribers. I just did a big cold subscriber call the other day. up to like 24,000. And so you're my engagement graph and ConvertKit's looking nice and green at the moment. yeah, and the majority of my lists previously had come from one, I have this really popular YouTube video about DIY screen printing.And so people sign up to my list to get a free opt-in that has like a PDF written with the instructions. So those are the ones that, you know, probably went cult. Let's be honest, but I also have a couple of other opt-ins about creating a design system for marketing website. How to advocate for yourself as a designer, self promotion as a designer, just a few sort of like things of credit along the way, as well as just a general sign up on my website.So yeah, most people are there because they're interested in my content, I guess. yeah.Nathan: [00:15:15]And so probably a lot of that is coming from either Twitter. but the bulk of it being from YouTube. Is that right?Charli: [00:15:23]A lot from YouTube, also a lot from my own website and from Twitter, I would say. Yeah,Nathan: [00:15:28]Okay. So you've got the newsletter there and then this is actually something that I was really curious about, like why launch a job board that feels like another, you're already juggling a bunch of LikeCharli: [00:15:39]Great point.Nathan: [00:15:40]how does that fit in.Charli: [00:15:41]Yes. So the job board came about, honestly, because of the platform that I have it on at school palette, and it's a way that communities can create a job board to advertise roles to their community. So it's quite like create a focus and it's meant to be heavily curated. So it's not like you come to my board and you find any type of design role.It's like a job board specifically for marketing design and brand design roles. Yeah, it's my goal to have it be the place that if you're looking for that type of role, you can search on here. And if you're hiring for it, you come post on my job board because you know that I'm going to send it out to my audience of people who are interested in this topic.And like, it just feels like a good fit.Nathan: [00:16:22]Right.Charli: [00:16:23]Pretty low lift so far, honestly. So that's another reason why I took it on because it wasn't like I had to make the site myself or anything. Pallet has the system and, they manage the payments for the job postings and things like that. I just go in when one gets submitted and see if I want to approve it and it gets posted.Nathan: [00:16:40]Nice. Yeah, no Southern people. There's a creator who I hope to have on the podcast soon named Sahil bloom, who has. Couple of hundred thousand followers on Twitter, a popular newsletter and all of that. And he just locked, launched a board called bloom boards, think is a great, I chuckled, you know?And so it's just interesting as a business model, because right, when you have this audience of tens of thousands or, or even more, that's really what you're, you're selling access to. And it's interesting, you know, like I'm used to selling products to individual creators where $50 or a hundred dollars or $200 is enough money that people are thinking hard about it.But what's interesting about it. A job board is that especially when the tech world, where someone is like, Hey, can you help me find this person that I'm somewhere between a hundred and $200,000 a year? And so, like, I assume you're, I don't know what your experience is, but the willingness to pay for that product is fairly high and they're really paying for access to your 18,000 subscriber newsletter.Charli: [00:17:44]Yeah. exactly. And the, I also have a tier on the job board where you can choose to pay, like a much higher fee. And I mentioned it in a YouTube video as well, that goes out to my audience of like 200,000 on there. And so it like, yeah. Smart idea. No, one's taken me up on that option yet, but I hope in time they will.Nathan: [00:18:02]Well, if nothing else, it's there for like package it, like positioning in there of like, well, maybe we would dive in what are the price points right now at the time ofCharli: [00:18:10]Oh, shoot. I can't remember off the top of my head. let me look it upNathan: [00:18:15]Google it either. That's tooCharli: [00:18:17]I'm just going to go to my own job board. How about that? So I think it's, I think it's 300 for an initial, like just a plain posting, 500 for featured, which then has like a, you know, a special section of my newsletter as well.And then I believe I priced it at like 1200 for the one that includes the YouTube shout out, which is like in line with what I charge YouTube sponsors is actually a lot cheaper than what I showed you, shoot responses, but, you know, I figure it's a good fit and it's doing service to my community to be promoting it well.So,Nathan: [00:18:46]Yeah. that makes sense. Okay. So what was the research that you did going into, like, I imagine it was more than like, oh, palette looks interesting. Great. Let's add this monetization method.What went in as you, as you were seeing of like, okay, I have this community and a job board is the way that I want to monetize it because I saw these people do it, or I you knowCharli: [00:19:09]That was the reason why. Yeah. it was mostly my friend , who was my co-host on the design life podcast. She had started one with palette and I saw her doing, and I was like, oh, this looks interesting. Like, tell me more about this. and she said that pellet had approached her and explained the system.So yeah, I reached out to them, got on a call with them. They're super like new as a startup basically. And so, you know, we're in, on, on the ground floor and helping them along the way with building features and, you know, suggesting what to build that sort of thing in their slack group. yeah. And I just decided this makes more sense than trying to build a, maintain a website of my own because they are doing that work.And, you know, as someone who creates on the side of a full-time job, leading a team at ConvertKit, I, you know, want to have this be minimal effort on my part get it out there. So it just made sense.Nathan: [00:19:58]So you're not very far into this, right? OrCharli: [00:20:00]No, it was brand new. I've only had like one person pay to post so far. It's veryNathan: [00:20:04]Yeah, we're just getting started. And so maybe this is a better question for like some point in the future, but like, if someone was coming to you and saying like, okay, I have a newsletter of 10 or 20,000 subscribers is like, should I consider a job board as well? Like as a monetization method, what, what would your, perspective be at this.Charli: [00:20:26]Right. Yeah. I think that is a good question, but I can definitely answer now. I would say if you could, if your niche for your newsletter is super cool. And there's like a certain type of people who read it or that you're speaking to when you write it, it could make sense to have a job board. there was some initial effort for me in finding some jobs to populate the board with sort of it wasn't launching with nothing, you know, but from then on, it feels like very low commitment because it's mostly inbound, right?It's people coming to you to post. So it's not going to be worth it for you if you don't have perhaps the profile in the community yet to get those inbound leads or, you know, get people visiting your board so that you have the good stats to tell people about that. Yeah. If you do have those things, consider it as an extra income stream.I think it's smart ad like diversify where your income is coming from. that was a big thing that led to me. we haven't gotten to this yet, but last year I doubled the income that I made from my side hustles and having like multiple small streams is how I did it rather than having like. Giant successful stream, if that makes sense.So yeah, I'm considering the job board as part of that.Nathan: [00:21:36]Yeah. I want to get into the side hustles as well. maybe before we do that, let's just go right there. Now the, I guess the first thing that I'm curious about is you share all of your numbers transparently publicly, that I do as well. and you also dive in, like you have popular videos on, like salaries for designers, your own salary history.Like one of my favorite videos that you've put together as like here's the salary that I've had at every role, know, across myCharli: [00:22:05]Every raise that had throughout my career. Yep.Nathan: [00:22:08]Yeah. And so, why, why that level of transfer.Charli: [00:22:12]Nathan. I feel like you're fishing for compliments, even though you don't realize you are, but It's honestly it's. Cause I, I, I got a lot of value from reading your income reports, seeing people like pat Flynn's income reports as well. And it just, I think it, it changed my mindset on money. It just it's something that we are taught that it has a taboo around it.Right. And we all keep it secret for some reason cause everyone else does. And so we think we have to as well. And I don't know, I guess just seeing other people share and seeing the value that I got from it and seeing how it didn't change my perception of them, if anything, it made me respect them more.I was like, well, you know, I feel like I am confident in what I'm earning and I'm confident that I'm being paid, what I'm worth. So why don't I just share this history with other people and tell them about it? And yeah, since then I feel like I've slowly gotten more and more transparent and the latest income report on my blog is the most transparent I've ever been.And yeah, I, no regrets.Nathan: [00:23:09]It's something that comes up. Like the reason I ask the question other than fishing for compliments, which absolutely doing, like, know, on a payment. the reason that I ask is because I think so many people are so timid about it. And so I like to have more of a conversation, not about like, just the like bold, brave people who are out there doing it, but like just to try to normalize it so much more.And so I'm curious what have been some of the downsides, you there's always, there's gotta be at least some YouTube comments or some emails something. And so maybe we can, can share a little bit about what the, I guess the, the outside edge of like, Hey, this is the downside, rather than just telling everyone like, oh, it was fine,Charli: [00:23:53]Yeah, totally. And I would love to hear this from you as well. I've had YouTube comments on both ends of the spectrum to the salary video in particular, some saying, this is irresponsible to tell people this is their rate. They're going to set them way too low. If they go and asking for what your salary is, you're being underpaid, that sort of thing. probably the people who live in San Francisco and work at like a Google or a Facebook or something like that.Nathan: [00:24:16]Yeah. It turns out you make like 500 grand a year. Like something crazy. You, you have to sell your soul. That's the only, like, I think, but other that,Charli: [00:24:24]So I've had people. I've also had the people saying like, oh my gosh, that's like so much money. design is like way over valued. There's people who are like, you know, saving lives in hospitals.And I'm like, yeah, this is a fair freaking point. I won't swear on your podcast. Great point that maybe the answer isn't, we should pay designers less, but maybe we should pay doctors and nurses more, you know, let's take that approach to it. but honestly less of that than I expected is is what I've seen.Maybe, maybe those sort of comments are happening in a less public forum. Like maybe people are talking about me behind my back. I don't ButNathan: [00:25:03]Probably not,Charli: [00:25:04]Yeah, well, Who knows, but either way the, the people who I care about, I haven't heard that from, will say one interesting thing I noticed is that since sharing my salary history and things, whenever I like offer to buy my family dinner or like, I know it will be, I'll be like, oh, pay they protest less.Now we'll just say that.Nathan: [00:25:27]That was going to be my next question is how it interacts with family.Charli: [00:25:31]Yeah,Nathan: [00:25:32]And so now it sounds like they're just like,Charli: [00:25:36]It.Nathan: [00:25:38]We can split it or something, but they only say it once instead ofCharli: [00:25:41]Yeah, yeah, They don't protest too hard. What about you? What have been some of the, like the positives and negatives you've had.Nathan: [00:25:47]YeahI mean, lots of positives, because I feel like the more transparent you are, the more, I mean, the more people read your content and the more they enjoy it, more they understand you. and so the more they want to connect, like soon, the number of people who I really respect and I'm a fan of who have reached out and been like, oh, let's chat.And I'm like, you know, I like playing it. Cool. I'm like, Hey. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be great. I, you know, I've, I've like seen your stuff on Twitter and really it's like, no, no, I've listened to every episode of the podcast or like some version of that. Right. And it's like, be cool, Nathan, you know? so there there's been a lot of that on the downsides.Let's see. I would say this is more early on, right? Because they've been transparent with numbers for the last eight, eight years or so. but especially I got started in online business when I was really young. And so. in the communities that like, like friends from high school or church or, you know, or my wife, Hillary is friends like in those circles, a lot of people were much earlier in their careers.So there was a time that, you know, people were making 25, 30, maybe $40,000 a year in those circles. And then over here, I'm like, if you, if they ask me what I do, I'm like, oh, I'm a writer or I'm a blogger or something like that. But on my blog, I'm talking about how, like I made $250,000 lastCharli: [00:27:14]Yeah.Nathan: [00:27:14]Right. And so there were a few awkward times when those worlds like crossedCharli: [00:27:20]Yeah.Nathan: [00:27:21]And it was, yeah. But there was a long time ago.Charli: [00:27:24]Handle it when, when they did cross though? Like how did you handle the situation? Awkward conversations.Nathan: [00:27:31]Yeah. well I remember one person in particular is one of. We're not, we don't, we aren't very good friends with them anymore, not because of this, but just different apart, but it was, one of my wife's friend's husband, you know, it's one of things where like you go to a party and for whatever reason, everyone segregates by gender.And you're what, why did we do this? You know? ButCharli: [00:27:56]This a middle school dance? Yeah.Nathan: [00:27:58]It was one of those things where someone who was genuinely interested in learning online business and, you know, and that sort of thing in the group and like follow my blog and understood. It was like asking questions about like, oh, how did this latest launch go?And, and I was like answering the questions, but I was just getting this feeling of like awkwardness from this other person. And so it, like, I always try to be transparent, but like, I couldn't, I was struggling to reconcile like in-person Nathan with online Nathan at that time I was glad that that resonates.Charli: [00:28:34]Yeah totally. Yeah.Nathan: [00:28:35]It was totally normal to be able to talk about like a book launch or something, online, but to talk about it in person of like, oh, this made like $40,000 in the course of a couple of days was a really weird thing to say. So I like dance around it and kind of set it. And from this other person got like just a straight up like, oh, wouldn't that be nice to just like, send, you know, send an email and make all this money and not have to work for it.AndCharli: [00:29:05]Well, I just, I did the work in advance though, soNathan: [00:29:07]Yeah, No, that's not the moment where you're like, be like, well, let's take a step back and let me get out the let's explain leverage and how you build a life. You know, it's like wrong, wrong vibe. just kind of shut down. I didn't know how to navigate that situation.So I did it poorly, you know, like kind of laughed it off. Someone else like felt the tension in the group and like made a joke and took the conversation some other way, you know?That was probably the most like awkward scenarioI've ever had. I, I think I have the same thing that you do have, like family is now like, okay.Yeah, no, you can, that's fine. We'll let you pay for that. which is honestly one of my, like, I, I like paying for thingsCharli: [00:29:51]Same. I wouldn't offer if I didn't want to.Nathan: [00:29:53]Yeah, exactly. So, and my family has been, been fantastic about all that.Charli: [00:30:00]I think, another thing that, I've noticed is I dunno, like, I think if you're going to start talking about money online, you have to, you can decide how much you want to share. Right. Just because you're being transparent about something doesn't mean you owe anyone anything more than what you decide you want to share.So for me, I share my income and I shared my business expenses, like the content production expenses this year, but I don't talk about like, oh, here's all everything I paid in taxes, everything that I paid to like live my life, or I don't know. Like there's some things that I'm not interested in talking about online.And I don't know. I, I started out giving people excuses when they would like push for more and more and more. But now I kind of feel like I've given you a lot. You take that and run with it. it, it doesn't, it shouldn't matter to you. my answer when people ask me, well, how much did you pay in Texas?And I just say, I paid the correct amount. I mean, what, benefit does it have to you to know this? You're not living in my exact situation, so I don't understand like how it would help. So, know, I decided that's not a thing that I want to talk about and, I am fine with that. And maybe people aren't, but yeah.Nathan: [00:31:14]Yeah, I think that's a great boundary and that's something probably that I haven't talked about this on this podcast that I'm curious for your answer on is what boundaries have you set in your like personal versus like creative life. Right? Because there are definitely people who would look at you and I, and be like, oh God, I could never like put myself out there in those ways.Like, I would never show up on camera. I like, I wouldn't talk about my life. I wouldn't put things on the internet under my real everyone has these different boundaries. And so I'm curious, like, what are some of yours? And have you set those over time?Charli: [00:31:45]Yeah, I think over time, I've settled more into my content that I put out online, being very focused on my work and obviously who I am showing up to do my work, who I am as a designer, but I don't share a lot of my personal life online. I'll share like the odd Instagram story here and there, pictures of my cats, that sort of thing.But you're not going to find me for example, vlogging on the weekend being like, oh no, I'm just hanging out with my boyfriend watching formula one. You know, that's, that's not the kind of content I'm trying to make. I'm just trying to make design focused. This is my work. This is my process is how I get it done.Sort of content. I did used to, vog more of the personal side of things and it was fun. And it's fun to have those videos to look back on, but it's also a lot like it, as much as you try to live in the moment while also capturing it, your attention is always going to be split some way. And so, you know, that's just a decision I made was to take more time offline when I'm not working and just document the work as what I share has been a good, good split for me, that works for me and my life and my family.Nathan: [00:32:52]Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like it's something that people probably do, both what you and I have done of like, not really having those clear boundaries and then you just gradually figured them out andCharli: [00:33:02]Figure out what worksNathan: [00:33:03]Think there are people who, you know, have things like, oh, we'll never put, like my kid's face on online or something like that.Right. I think like has that, has where like the like certain clips there'll be blurred they're like, oh, they're walking through New York. Yeah, exactly. It's the back of the head. Or you're like, oh, there's a kid in a stroller that you can't really see, you and it's just interesting to try to try to navigate that.So I appreciate people who are intentional. And I think I just, haven't, there's a lot of things that I haven't figured out exactly. And you'll see how it changes over time.Um, cause I think we, you know, what you're comfortable with comfortable. You know what the YouTube channel of a thousand or 10,000 subscribers is different than what you're comfortable with it 200,000.Charli: [00:33:53]Yeah, And, that changes over time, too. Something I recently started doing this year is streaming my work, streaming Twitch and. I dunno, I'd, I'd been very resistant to doing live streams in the past because I was just nervous about what having people watch me design. Maybe it was imposter syndrome I was feeling, or I don't know, just worried about people judging me when they're seeing messy middle of the process, rather than me presenting like this final thing that I've finished and it looks great.And there's been, that was a fun challenge to overcome. Honestly, it's been a really fun way to build community over on Twitch. like diversifying my audience in a way from not just being focused on YouTube or Twitter, but, building small audiences elsewhere. It's been cool.Nathan: [00:34:36]Okay. So you said diversify, which is interesting. And I like that. do you worry about diluting your efforts in diluting your audience? Picking up another none other channel or platform.Charli: [00:34:49]Kind of, but also no. so I have this person in my mind who is like my creator idol. you've probably heard of her Jessica Hische. She is a designer, a letterer illustrator, and I'm just such a big fan of her work and in how she shows up online in that, she's just doing cool stuff all the time. Well, that's what it feels like anyway, like doing cool things, putting it out there, you wouldn't call her a blogger or a, I don't know, like just a speaker or just someone on Twitter.Like she's all of those things. and she just like shows up in different ways to share different pieces of her work. That's what I'm trying to do. I don't want to be known as just a YouTuber and lock myself into that. And I feel like I did for a while. And it's only really been probably in the last year that I feel like I've pulled out of that.And that's not how I mostly hear people describe me anymore. yeah, I'm just trying to finish show up online and share things and, yeah, maybe I could be more successful in terms of building a bigger audience if it was just focused on YouTube, for example, but that's not my end goal. Right. So it, it doesn't serve me.And I'm more interested in just being, being a well-rounded person. Like I call it a digital citizen. This is what I did my, honors degree project about some bit nerdy about it. But yeah, I like being a digital citizen and giving stuff to theNathan: [00:36:13]Yeah.I like it. Well, so maybe if we dive in a little bit on YouTube since that is where the bulk of your audience, know, has come from and, and all of that, what were the things like as you look back over the last, you know, 200,000 subscribers. What were the things that made the biggest impact any step functions and growth or, you know, particular videos or really just habits that paid off over time?Charli: [00:36:41]I think it's mostly been habits. Honestly. There's only one sort of, step point in my growth that I can point to is when I was featured on a list of the design channels to follow on YouTube. And that gave me like a big boost, butNathan: [00:36:55]how ofCharli: [00:36:55]YouTube. Hmm. I can't remember now several thousand, like more than what get.It was significant, like a difference inNathan: [00:37:03]when you were at like 10,000, 50,000.Charli: [00:37:07]I can't even remember now. I feel like probably around like 20,000 ish maybe.Nathan: [00:37:14]So we're talking a significant boost at this point. It'sCharli: [00:37:16]Yes,Nathan: [00:37:17]10%, 20%.Charli: [00:37:19]Yes, In like within a week sort of thing. Major that I started to see those numbers increase. but most of my growth on YouTube has been like slow and steady. Just like climbing up over time for the first five years of being on YouTube.You mentioned habits. I didn't miss a single week about bloating for five freaking years. I don't know how I did it now. I Ms. Weeks all the time now, but that really helped me get in the habit of making videos. Get in the habit of having an idea, figuring out how to express it, learning how to edit, putting it out there, getting a response, making a better next time.I think if I had stressed a lot about my first however many videos I made in those five years, I would have taken a lot longer to grow if I'd been trying to perfect each one. But instead I was just like, no, what matters is getting something out there? So I'm going to get something out there. and that, that was a huge part in building my consistent.Then the other thing I think I'd say helped is deciding who I'm talking to on YouTube. I started out making content about a bunch of different stuff and eventually it settled. No, the reason I wanted to make videos is to talk about design. I should stop talking about makeup and cooking recipes and stuff like that.And like, let's just talk about design. That's what I'm most passionate about. so yeah, going all in on that has enabled me to get posted on lists like top designers to follow on YouTube, that sort of thing, and become, quite a well-known design channel. Yeah.Nathan: [00:38:47]One thing that's interesting to me is that even in choosing that knee seat to go for design, you haven't gone. What I think most people would find the most, likely path, which is like a whole bunch of design tutorials. definitely have designed tutorials, but like, if I'm looking specifically for how to, I don't know, combined shapes and Figma, your channel is not the, like, you don't have video of, you know, exactly how to do that.You might introduction to Figma.That'sCharli: [00:39:17]I do.Nathan: [00:39:18]Yeah. And you might, I have watched that video. I was part of me switching from Photoshop Figma was watching your to videoIt's not hypothetical. but, but what's the reason for not habit, like not going tips or tutorial base.Charli: [00:39:35]Honestly, it's, it's what I said before about, how a lot of my content comes out is making the kinds of things I want to see. And what I wanted to see is the behind the scenes of people's processes and talking through like the decisions they made about a project, like why did they do something this way?That's what I care about more than the, how I feel like there's a million tutorials out there to tell you how to combine shapes and Figma or whatever. there's people who are passionate about that and who are really great at explaining things succinctly. And they do it a lot better than I could. And that's just not like the space I'm looking to fill.I want to show people. The real life of a professional designer, the projects that I work on, how I work on them, how I make decisions, the challenges I run into along the way, that's the kind of thing, but I'm looking to share and, and that sort of lens frames, all of my content, like not just on YouTube, that is also the newsletter, the book, the anything I tweet as well.It sort of all comes from this.Nathan: [00:40:32]Yeah, I think that's the Mo the best way to be long-term authentic and say interested in when you, what you're creating there, like practical side of me is like, but you could do that and have the tips and that would drive, you know, search results. And, and I feel like that's a tension that so many creators have, like, this is what I want to make.And this is what I know will also get me short-term results. Like, should I do both? Should I split my focus? Is that something you ever thought about or struggled with?Charli: [00:40:59]Yeah.That's why I have a Figma one-on-one video is because I know that that does do well in search. And I think that, I think I'm pretty good at explaining at an introductory level, a new piece of software to someone I wouldn't really consider myself a power user of any software. So you're not going to find like a advanced Figma tips video on my channel.Cause I'm not, I don't, I'm not really an advanced user. I'd do what I need to, but I think I'm really good at making, something that seems scary or new, like a new piece of software that you have to use feel easy to understand. And so that's, that's the gap I try to fill in that sense to appease the algorithm.Like right now I'm planning a web flow one-on-one video to sort of go along with this one-on-one series that I'm doing. and my hope is that people see that and then stick around for the rest of the more process driven.Nathan: [00:41:48]One way that I think helps bridge that gap for people sticking around for, for your content is that you put your personality and yourself in it. Right. We don't dive just into a screencast. you know, and it's like, you've heard of watch a video. Like I know I'm watching one of Charli's right?It's not like any other video that I just found through through search.Charli: [00:42:08]And I've comments about that. Nathan people have said like, oh, why is your face so big on the screen? It's always funny how the negative ones talk about you. Not to you say, why is her face on the screen so big? And I'm like, well, you're probably not going, gonna like the rest of my videos that are pretty much only my face.So it's okay that you don't like this oneNathan: [00:42:26]I don't know if you know this, but you're on my channel.Charli: [00:42:31]And I'm the one reading these comments. Yeah.Nathan: [00:42:34]Yeah. Yeah. That's that's good. If anyone was starting a YouTube channel today, either in the design space or something else, like what would you tell them? What would you, would you say as far as like that advice to kick it off?Charli: [00:42:46]I think ask yourself what is not being talked about or not being talked about in a way that you personally find useful or like a perspective that you personally have in the design space in particular, there's a lot of content about like how to become a UX designer, that sort of thing. So it's like, and it's probably the same for a lot of topics is finding your unique angle on it now is important that the number of the space is more saturated and leaning into your personality, because that is sometimes your point of difference is that there's only one of you.And then you have lived your experience and white has led you to this point. And that could be an interesting angle to put on anything that you want to teach or share. But so that, and also just get freaking started. People seem to like, I don't know, obsess over perfecting the video, set up in their audio.And I think it's Roberto Blake who says that your first 100 videos are going to like be. Not good. I, again, I'm not sure if we can swear thisNathan: [00:43:45]You can swear. That'sCharli: [00:43:46]Okay, going to be shit, Nathan, they're going to be shit. And so you should just need to get through them and like get in the habit of producing and getting used to seeing your face and hearing your voice.So yeah, if it's something you want to do get started sooner rather than later, so you can get that awkward stage over with faster.Nathan: [00:44:00]Yeah. Yeah. And then like gear and everything else. You just like gradually replaced thing at a timeCharli: [00:44:06]Exactly.Nathan: [00:44:07]And gradually upgrade it. he did something last year. No, I'm trying to think two years ago, I hate what is time anymore.Charli: [00:44:13]KnowsNathan: [00:44:14]You made a font and that's something that I like looked at.There's like normal people. There's designers, and this is the way that I think, and designers who can make a font. And for anyone who's just listening to the audio. I'm like doing stair-step things with myCharli: [00:44:30]Yes. You have to imagineNathan: [00:44:34]So that puts it in a category of like, I just think of that as an incredibly difficult thing and not like a great moneymaker, like there's a lot of difficult things are high difficulty and high rewards, you know, the effort versus impact, like you're at the top of both.Right. And that's the reason like, okay, great. You know, that's very difficult, but you did it and there's a high, high financial reward. I'm curious the way you thought about making a font, because the way that I see it is that it is very high effort in low financial rewards. but maybe the reward and impact comes some of the.Charli: [00:45:16]I would say, I definitely have not, I dunno, earned even a minimum wage in my sales yet from the hours producing the font. I'm just trying to edit it up right now. Cause it was, I was sold across a few different platforms, but I think I've earned about six, 2,600 pounds from it so far, is like not bad.I don't know what that is in us dollars. should I Google that quickly?Nathan: [00:45:40]Sure. Let's do it. be the episode where we Google everythingCharli: [00:45:44]3,606 us dollars is around about how much I've made from the font. So it's notNathan: [00:45:50]Any matter, a thousand hours into it. And so $3 hour. don't know.Charli: [00:45:55]But the cool thing about it is one. It was just a thing I wanted to do. I thought it would be fun to try. Cause I'm, I'm an avid like font collector myself, and now it is my passive income. Like I, and, yeah, the bulk of that income has come in the past year where I've done minimal marketing for the font.I'll like tweet about it or share whenever someone else, someone posts like an image of them using it. but there's not been a huge concerted effort gone into that. And so that's kind of cool. It feels it's my first passive income that I feel better about than ad sense, for example, cause this is the thing created and I don't know.It's more intentional.Nathan: [00:46:35]Well then you also get to see it in use around the oh, that's my fault.Charli: [00:46:41]Yup. Yup. It's really fun. It's it's especially cool because I just created it as a hand, drawn looking font, but people very quickly just started using it as a font to annotate designs because it does look handwritten and yet it is also like highly readable.And so I really leaned into that as the, like in the way that I frame the font now and the way that I market it is. Yeah, this is to annotate your designs in a really clear and legible way that still looks and written. And we even use it on the convert kit website.Nathan: [00:47:11]Do it comes full circle.Charli: [00:47:12]Yes.Nathan: [00:47:15]On that note. I want to talk about the intersection between having a full-time job and life as a creator, because I think people would, would think of it as, oh, I have this, and then maybe I have this one side hustle or I ha like ha and, and you're able, I think, through the leverage that you've made with, like coming into the job with a, you know, established audience and habits and everything, you've been able to build, you know, like a small design empire.And so I'm you think about balancing those two things and, and what you'd say to someone else really, who is like straddle.Charli: [00:47:54]Yeah, I think I'm getting clear on what you want from these two worlds. It's important. So for me, it really matters to me that I'm still designing. And so, that's why I, and like contributing to a project that's bigger than just like my own. That's why I like working at ConvertKit. I do not enjoy freelancing, so like, it would be hard for me to really fulfill fulfilled, I think freelancing right now, anyway, who knows that could change in the future.That's why I am not interested in going full-time on the creating side of things. And so knowing that means I have okay. I'm no I'm going to work a full-time job. And I know that creating is also important to me, all this content that I'm making. I don't want to give that up either. So how do I do them both?How do I figure this And it's just been a, a constant, constantly changing, I dunno just way that I get this done when I was, I don't know when I was younger, like, I dunno, five years ago, I used to wake up super early in the morning and do a few hours video editing and things like that on side hustles before starting the day, I feel like I'm older and tired now, and I do that.But what I do now that I am earning income from my side hustles is pay people to help me. So I pay for editors. I pay for, yup. Video podcasts, editing, some VA's who helped with my bookkeeping and content management, uploading that sort of thing, just so that I can really keep the parts I enjoy to do myself and hand off, as much as possible of the stuff I don't enjoy.And it's been a worthy investment for me because of, yeah. It making it sustainable.Nathan: [00:49:31]Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. don't know if you posted this in slack or in, on Twitter, as I mentioned it somewhere else, but there's a video that you were editing recently yourself. And that was a bit of a, I don't know, not a wake up call, but I was like a reminder like, oh yeah, this is a lot of work.Charli: [00:49:50]that was one that I wanted to edit and then put out like two days later. And so I knew my editor wouldn't have time for a quick turnaround like that. So I was like, well, I'm just going to do it myself. And I'm like, oh, okay.I remember why I outsourced this.Nathan: [00:50:04]Yeah. That's even outsourcing something that like, you know, well and are good at done for many years. But I think what you've found in that, or, I mean, the point that I want people to take away is like, you can actually create really a lot, if you set up the systems you're willing to let go of the things that you're skilled at, but don't like, they're not the thing that makes the content, know, like maybe if, you and I were filmmakers, right.The editing and having just perfect. Right. That would be part of it where we're like, oh, wow, that was incredible. Right. But, but like we're, we're teaching content, we're sharing things. It needs good editing, but it doesn't like, that's not what makes her break the perks of the video. And so outsourcing that allows you to create so much more content.Charli: [00:50:52]Yep. Exactly. And that's often my answer when people say like, oh my gosh, how do you do it all? I'm like, well, I pay people to help me. That's how I do it all. I don't do it all myself.Nathan: [00:51:01]Yeah. When you sit down like a video that you're making in a given week, I don't pick a video. I'd love to hear kind of what your process is like. Do you just sit down and flip on the camera and start talking? Or are you writing a script first? what's your process? Like how much time does it take?Charli: [00:51:17]I these days, honestly, we do tend to write a script when it's a video. Like, oh, let's say for example, a recent one, I uploaded was one explaining the differences between, I think it was five different job titles and tech that you often see. that is one that I sat down and wrote a script for first, when I film it, I don't necessarily, I don't use a teleprompter and I don't necessarily read the script word for word, but it helps me process my thoughts to write it out first.Sometimes I find when I do a video, that's just bullet points. It takes me a lot longer to film because I end up like talking about something and then I'm like, no, I don't like the way I phrased that or we'll go back and like repeat it a bunch of times. so yeah, getting that out of the way first actually speeds it up for me to spend a bit of time writing.And yeah, I have my filming —set up like this background, if you're watching the video version of this podcast, is just where I do my filming. And that makes it pretty easy to just set the camera up, turn it on and film. I generally like to fill more than one video at a time as well. Cause if I'm going to like, I dunno, put lipstick on or something, I want it to be worthwhile.Nathan: [00:52:20]Sense. What you were saying about writing the script made me think of back when I was doing like designed to tutorial content. What I would often do is I would, I would know roughly what I was going to make or like the tip I was trying to share or whatever. And I'd have like, An idea of like, here's the fake app that I'm going to do it or any of that.Right. and I would record the tutorial and end it and I'd look at it and say, it's like a Photoshop tip and it's five minutes long. And then I would set that aside. Wouldn't delete it, but like, I'd set it aside. And then I would reset my like new Photoshop document or whatever. And I would record the exact same tutorial again.And I would look at it if the first one was five minutes, the next one was three minutes. And like, and I never wrote a script or anything, but just the action of like doing it twice. It was so much better the second time. And that's what I found was such an efficient process because, it still came across naturally, but I like avoided the random rabbit holes that I went down the first time where you're like, you're talking to, like, this is no longer useful.Should I edit this out later? You know,Charli: [00:53:28]Yeah. Totally. That's I do that sometimes as well. When it's more of a, off the cuff video, I'll, there's been times where I've been like, you know what? I got to the end of my, 30 minutes of footage. And I feel like I should record this again to make the edit process easier. And like, so that I'm more clear on what I said and what I didn't.Nathan: [00:53:46]Right. Yeah. Cause easier to get clear in the recording in a second than it is for your editor to be like, okay, the three of this plus version four of that one, like there we go. And we're going to do a jump cut here. So it seems likeCharli: [00:54:01]Yeah.Nathan: [00:54:03]That'd be great. Don't worry about it. are there times that the full-time role and you know, you'd like your side work as a creator, like those have conflicted?Well, I think that people are wondering like, oh, that's, that's great that it magically all works. I'm happy for you. I'm be happy to share examples as well at times, like that with me.Charli: [00:54:21]Yeah.I think that's a really good question because it is often the impression I think that we give across, or that I give across to people. and I find myself in weird situations where I'm convincing someone that my life is not perfect, which is weird, like find yourself but no, you're right, totally.There's I think why it comes across, like it all works is because I lean into the moments when I do feel motivation. And I do have time to like batch film a video. Like I haven't filmed a video for a month and there's still been content going out on my YouTube channel because I filmed it when I had time.And when I felt like doing it. but yeah, there's definitely weeks where. I can't get what I would like to done on my side hustle, because I know that I have to put my job first and I just have to like, accept that that's part of the, like, it's like a compromise you make in deciding to do them both and deciding create on the side means that I'm never gonna be able to produce as much content as someone who does it full-time can, or like take on every opportunity that someone who creates full-time can.And I just have to be okay with that. Right. And if I start to become not okay with that, that's when I need to like check in with it myself and be like, well, what do I really want to be doing here? Yeah.Nathan: [00:55:36]Yeah. I think that one way that they worked really well together is like different creative energy.Like I've spent so much time recently on like, where we're going as a company, you know, it's like all these high level things. and very little time, like as a creator, is core to who I am.Like if I were to, you know, write down some identity statement, like writer would be pretty high up in there, you know, writer, designer. and so if I get too far away from that, I find that, You know, I start to feel like disconnected from who, who I am at my core, but at the same time, like ConvertKit as a company does not need me to be a designer like there.In fact, I often cause more problems. If I jumped into let me design this for you. then, Al for someone else on ourCharli: [00:56:28]It's you didn't use the design system.Nathan: [00:56:31]Exactly like, hi, let me show you. Remember how I showed you the whole thing and how you didn't use any of it. And now this is really nice. and so doing something on the side.Yeah. Like I did a, I started a newsletter just talking about money, like, and doing that on the side has been like a really motivating, like get, has given me creative energy, even though it's an additional thing. The important distinction is that I had to make sure that it wasn't like a treadmill that I was signing up for. so it's like going back to, you know, a season of Inside Marketing Design, right? Yeah. I have energy. It's going to go towards this and then it's going to go on pause. and then also like setting it up. So it's, it's evergreen, right? So instead of sending, a broadcast every Friday morning, you know, I set it up.So it's an automation and convert kit and, you know, it's emails one through five and they just go out automatically. And when I have energy, I come in right. And like, you know, the next email is already ready to go and I'm working on one of a few later. and then I know that if at any point I stop, like here's this asset that people can keep buying or signing up for, and using, and that like it basically the it'll live on there's the system itAre there other things where, where you're doing that or other rules that you have in that.Charli: [00:57:54]Yeah.So maybe a rule that I have is, I was finding myself, spending a lot of time, like reading emails and reading about sponsorship opportunities and like partnership opportunities from companies. And often I would like, feel like I should explore every avenue. Cause like if someone who's offering to pay me money, right?Like who am I to say no to that? I should do my due diligence and check it out. You'd get a few emails in and it would turn out their idea of a sponsorship was like much lower than what your idea of responses. It was the company wasn't a good fit, or I don't know, you didn't love it. and so I just decided that I'm not going to even entertain the idea of a sponsorship from any company tool, brand, whatever that I don't already know and use, and like using myself.And that's just made it really easy. I just have like a text expander auto response that I can just quickly put in to send off to the people who, offer me sponsorships that I, you know, have never heard of before I don't use.And it, sometimes it hurts to like, think about leaving money on the table in that way, but I just have to hope it pays off longterm in that I'm making those much choices with sponsorships, you know?And that there's only one of me and I'd rather be creating than emailing a random companyNathan: [00:59:08]Yeah, you made model to help you make that decision and actedAnd freed up. Not only, you know, if people talk about like, you only have so many decisions you can make in a day you know, what font to use for this heading is one of those, you know, like we make a ton of decisions that you're just like, look, that's a whole series of decisions that I'm not going to make. And that frees up creative energy for other things. Cause like, should I take the sponsorship or not? It's not like a creativeCharli: [00:59:37]Yes, exactly.Nathan: [00:59:38]Business admin question, that's not.Charli: [00:59:41]Yeah. totally. And, another thing that I'm in the middle of right now, I said before the design life podcast is having a summer break. I'm also taking a bit of a summer break from my newsletter, from videos to allow the space to work on season two of Inside Marketing Design. and also to spend some time writing my book, which is completely like fallen by the wayside over the past few months.You know, got out of the habit of it

Support the Show. Get the NEW AudioBook! AudioBook: Audible| Kobo| Authors Direct | Google Play | Apple  SummaryHey everyone. Stay tuned to the end of the interview where I'll give you some actionable insights that I learned from my guest. These insights are also in the show notes. As always, thanks for listening. Now on to my guest today, Niall Murphy, CEO, and founder of EVRYTHNG Product Cloud.  Niall is a serial entrepreneur in the technology and communications space. He's Irish-born but grew up in South Africa and trained as a computer scientist. He was an advisor under the transition to the African National Congress in the early 90s and learned to plan by going backward from what would be needed in the future. His other ventures have included one of the first ISP companies in South Africa and a wifi company in Europe in the early 2000s.  Niall came up with the idea for EVRYTHNG after hearing someone ask, “Why can't I Google my shoes?” The mission of EVRYTHNG is to provide data and information on products all around the world, providing insight into where a product comes from, what it's made of, where it ends up, and much more. He sees this mission as inextricably tied to the project of sustainability as, for example, we can better understand what's in a piece of clothing so that it can be recycled instead of incinerated. It can also be used for tracing food at a time when people are increasingly wanting to know exactly where their food comes from and how it was grown or made. Niall also talks about the challenges in starting a business whose market hasn't been found yet, and what to do to ensure you're ready to jump in when demand hits.  Now let's get better together. Actionable Insights “Just get out there and get on with it,” Murphy says. “Don't wait for permission.”  Murphy also advises that you stick with your vision, but be ready to adapt. You might need to change your strategy or product but keep your vision always in mind.  Try to be a pioneer, but be careful not to overcapitalize too soon. Read the market, and make sure you have enough to keep you going until the market opens up.  Links to Explore Further EVRYTHNG Website  Niall Murphy on LinkedIn Productive AI Podcast Gartner Hype Curve Keep In TouchBook or Blog or Twitter or LinkedIn or JSYPR or Story Funnel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dude, I don't care if you're already judging me for the title of this. Yes, I buy sports cards on Etsy.

BGBS 062: Dr. Sarabeth Berk | More Than My Title | What Do You Do??Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert in hybrid professional identity, and a hybrid professional herself. She was featured in Forbes and is a TEDx speaker, author, and recipient of a Colorado Inno on Fire award for her innovative work. Through a decade of research and coaching, Sarabeth developed a one-of-a-kind approach that takes personal branding to a whole new level. Her hybrid title is Creative Disruptor because she blends her artist/researcher/educator/designer identities together to lead and create innovative strategies that radically connect resources and people in new ways. Sarabeth obtained her PhD from the University of Denver, and has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and Rhode Island School of Design. Her background includes directing major initiatives in K-12, higher education, startups, and nonprofits. In this episode, you'll learn…Reflective tips and tricks to start identifying your uniqueness/hybridity How to answer the daunting question of “What do you do?” The benefits of finding your professional hybrid identity to pinpoint who you are at the intersection of your many strengths ResourcesInstagram: @morethanmytitle Facebook: More Than My Title LinkedIn: Sarabeth Berk Website: morethanmytitle.com Quotes[16:03] My entire background has been about interdisciplinarity, and crossing things that are unrelated together, and finding new things at the intersection. So this has always been a heartbeat. And it comes from my creative background. It comes from experimenting with making meaning. I think that's really who I am. [22:48] Your hybridity is your special blend of spices that is unique to you. No one else has combined identities that way and that's what makes you unique and strong in whatever you're doing for work. [26:50] The reason hybridity matters is because when you know the different parts that are important and you know why they fit together, then you know your uniqueness, you know why you're different than all the other “roses” and “fish” and “dogs” because we're all using these generic labels to try and just fit into boxes. Have a Brand Problem? We can help.Book your no-obligation, Wildstory Brand Clarity Call now. Learn about our Brand Audit and Strategy process Identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh Determine if your business has a branding problem See examples of our work and get relevant case studies See if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level Book Your Brand Clarity Call TODAY Podcast TranscriptSarabeth Berk 0:02 And the zone of genius is a place where you're in flow, you're at your best, you're most energized, alive, things are effortless. And in those moments, people were actually explaining without knowing they were saying it, how their parts, their different identities were being activated, if at the same time. So this one teacher was like, you know, I'm being an empath by hearing the problems with my students and giving them guidance and counseling, but I'm also sharing knowledge and also bringing in creativity. And I'm also this and also this. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that's the intersection. Like, is this really how it works that when we feel our best, and our work, we're in the intersection of our of our work. And I started knowing I was onto something like that was the beginning of a hunch. So I kept checking it out testing it, right. Like I was trying to understand do more people have this too, and sure enough, they do. Marc Gutman 0:58 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big Back stories, and I cannot lie. I am your host Marc Gutman. And on today's episode of Baby Got Back story, I want to know, what do you do? Really? What do you do? If this question gives you pause? Or if you've ever felt anxious at a party or event? When someone asks you, what do you do? And there's no real great way to say it? Not really, then stay tuned, because this episode is for you. And before we get into the show, here's a reminder, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings they really do as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. And we like ratings. So please go ahead and give us a review. If you like the show. Today's guest is Dr. Sarabeth Berk. In that question. What do you do? was a tough one for her to answer. She did many different things from design to research to innovation. And she never had a good answer to that. That question. I don't know about you. But when I don't have a good answer, I Google for it. Then I maybe read a blog. But Sarabeth, she went full researcher on the question, discovered that work professionals have many different identities and where those identities intersect. Well, that's where the magic happens. Today, Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert in hybrid professional identity, and a hybrid professional herself. She has been featured in Forbes and is a TEDx speaker, author and the recipient of a Colorado inno on fire Award for her innovative work. Sarabeth's hybrid title is Creative Disruptor because she blends her artist, researcher, educator designer identities together to lead and create innovation strategies that radically Connect resources and people in new ways. Sarabeth obtained her PhD from the University of Denver, and has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, in the Rhode Island School of Design, so she knows what she's talking about. Her background includes directing major initiatives in K through 12, higher education, startups and nonprofits. And this is her hybrid story. I'm here with Sara Berk, the Creative Disruptor at More Than My Title, Sara, thanks for coming on the show. And let's get right into it. What is a Creative Disruptor? Sarabeth Berk 4:10 Hey, Marc, thanks for having me. Ah, the Creative Disruptor question. Well, essentially, I didn't know what to call myself. I was more than my job title. And I did all this work, which we can talk about reflecting on like, Who am I really like, what do I want to be called? And I noticed I'm a person that challenges and pushes and changes information because I see it differently. And that was like that disrupter inside of me. But then also, I'm super creative. I come from an art background. And I'm always like visually, orienting things and making sense of like pictures and images. And I was like, I'm not just a disrupter. I'm like really creative and how I do it because I am like playing with tools and using design. And that's me in a nutshell, like that term is my identity in my work. And that's why I call myself a Creative Disruptor. I'm changing things for the good. Marc Gutman 5:10 Yeah, so thank you. And I neglected when I introduced you to, I forgot that you are Dr. Sarabeth Berk. And then I think that's relevant. That's important. We'll talk about that. Because you're a researcher, and an academic. And a lot of what we're talking about is rooted in that research and that background. But you, you started that with saying, I didn't know what to call myself, like, why did that even matter? What why was that coming up as a problem for you like what was happening in your life where not knowing what to call yourself was an issue? Sarabeth Berk 5:42 Marc, I don't know how many parties you've been to, or networking events. But ultimately, everyone says, Hey, what do you do? Hey, nice to meet you. What do you do? And this, what do you do? Question plagued me, it really became the bane of my existence. Because I got super anxious. I was in a space in my life, where I wasn't really secure in what my career was and what I was doing for work. I was finding myself and going through, like a job search career transition process. So I didn't have an answer to that question. Like something solid, where I was like, yeah, I'm Sarabeth. I'm the blah, blah, blah. So when I was struggling with how to answer that question, I finally realized I was having an identity crisis, I have like, literally didn't know who I was. And that, to me launched this whole series of events where I got really curious on Who am I like, I'm not what people are calling me. I'm not just a teacher or designer. Like, there's something else here. And I really wanted to figure that out. Marc Gutman 6:40 This idea and the word that you just used in that story about identity? And has that's been something you've always been interested in, like when you were growing up, were you, you might not have used those words, you might not have framed it as identity. But Was that something that that always either perplexed, confused or interested you? Sarabeth Berk 7:01 I, I would say no, like, this isn't something that was on my mind for years and years, it's something that I realized was the root problem. I was circling around, but I never had a name for it. Like when I was trying to figure out what I was doing after college and how to build my career. The advice I often got from people as well figure out what you're passionate about, like, let's let's talk about what your strengths, let's figure out, you know, what you love to do and make your work fit that. So it was always about the what do you do and why? And how are you going to do it? No one ever stopped and asked me about who are you like, Who do you think you are? Like, what do you call yourself? That's a different question. So this notion of identity came to me much later, because I realized, we were talking about something we weren't really talking about, like there's another piece of the puzzle that was missing. Marc Gutman 7:56 And so that's interesting. Let's talk about that. So when you were growing up, what was your identity? Like? What did you think? Your let me rephrase? Who were you at the time? And then where would you think you're gonna end up doing? What were you hoping to do? Sarabeth Berk 8:07 Yeah, I mean, I was this perfect student, I was the straight a girl. I loved academics and art, that was really what I was up to. And so my identity for you know, the first 20 some years of my life was student, you know, like, you are a student. That's what people tell you. And then you graduate high school or college or wherever you finish your degree, and you lose that identity. And literally, that's when I dropped into my first identity crisis. But people told me Oh, you're just burned out? Or, oh, you know, you're just going through like a quarterlife crisis or something. No one ever said, you are having this identity moment. And so that first transition of going from student to Well, what am I now Who am I now? And then trying to figure out like, okay, who's gonna hire me? Like, I don't even know how to take my degree and turn it into a job. I was a ski instructor after I graduated. Because I literally was like, where do I start. And then I eventually went back to grad school got a degree in art and design, when it's a classroom worked for some nonprofits, and boom, then I felt a little more secure. Because what we usually do in society is you define yourself by your job. So when you're in a job, you have security around your identity, you're like, Oh, I'm Joe, the marketing manager, and I'm Sally, the coder and like you just have this sense of who you are based on what you do, because we spend the majority of our lives in our jobs. And literally research says that when you lose a loved one, go through divorce or lose a job. Those are the three biggest moments where you lose a sense of yourself. And I until you go through that you don't realize how powerful you associate yourself with the thing you're doing. So that was a little bit of how I started noticing I was having an identity crisis is when I lost it. Marc Gutman 9:55 Yeah. And what I heard there is that like this idea of our identity and our identity changing and even being between identities. It's, it's not something like that happens just once it doesn't just happen, you know, between our 20, you know, matriculating from through college to the working world, it can happen a lot of different times. And I think that, you know, at least my self, you know, I think about, like, how I approach it. Like, I feel guilty about that, or I feel like I'm doing something wrong, or and you and I have talked about this, I feel like shame that like, I don't know how to identify, identify myself. Did you experience that at all? While while you were going through that transition? Sarabeth Berk 10:35 100%? Yes. I mean, there's so much wrapped up, I felt like a failure, I thought, vulnerable, full of guilt, my self worth my self confidence. We're just all in the pits. I really was just like, I felt lost and confused. It's a dissociative moment is what like psychology would say, and you just feel disconnected because you don't know. Like, like your roots anymore. Your your foundation got taken from you. And so it's a process of rebuilding and reinventing and finding yourself again. And I think it's part of growth. I think life, like you just mentioned, puts us through these tests at different times. It's not just once, I'm actually going through my fourth identity crisis right now. Like I've mapped them, and I'm on four right now. So they keep coming. Marc Gutman 11:24 Yeah. And the Pro, the the leading expert, I hybridity and identity crisis is going through an identity crisis, which is great. You know, it's like, it's this isn't like exclusively to other people. And so it's something that we all go through. And so were you originally from Colorado? No, I was born on the east coast and Pennsylvania. And my family wanted to be in the West. They love the mountains. So I moved out to Colorado when I was in elementary school. Right. And then I want to go back to that moment when you were a ski instructor. So you wanted to be a ski instructor. Like, tell me about that? Like, what what was that? Like? Sarabeth Berk 12:01 You know, I saw I graduated from undergrad I was in Chicago at the time I came back home to be with my parents. Everything just fell off kilter. And I became a barista at a coffee shop. And that was like the fall season. And I had done some summer camp, teaching with like people that were ski instructors, because I grew up in the Roaring Fork Valley by Aspen and Snowmass. So I had some contacts in the ski industry. And sure enough, I called them up and said, what does it take to be a Scottish doctor and they said, Come on down, apply, we're hiring. And I made it as a rookie that year. So it was really just kind of going with the flow of life. But it was really good for me, because I, as I mentioned, I was so academic, when your ski instructor, it's really about safety of the kids First, we always said the order is safety, fun, and then learning. And a lot of it was just letting go of structure and homework and research and like deep thinking it was like, go just be like have a job. That's so much about enjoying life and meeting people and going skiing with kids all day. It was great. Marc Gutman 13:12 Yeah. And so this is so interesting to me. So you and I've met recently, and certainly, the identity I know about you is, you know, an expert on hybridity and this topic of being, you know, trying to find, you know, how do I talk about myself, but like, when I look at your bio, this is kind of funny to me, because you and I did an event together. And I was super impressed with how like, you're cranking out these these beautiful design assets and all this stuff. I was like, Wow, that's really good. This, I didn't realize that and I feel silly, because you always refer to yourself as an academic and you talk a lot about academics and, and research. And that's, that's how I categorize you. That's how I see you and your identity. But you have this crazy background where you went to the Art Institute of Chicago and risk D, the Rhode Island School of Design, like, talk to me a little bit about that because just even that like you, you started saying like I was really into academics, academics, but you're also really you were like a very serious like art student like how, like, talk me through that a little bit. Sarabeth Berk 14:18 Yeah, I mean, I was a wallflower in high school, I need to go back to that moment. But my my creative outlet was art class, I always needed to take art every semester and I fell in love with my high school art teacher just because she was such an inspiration and just opened my eyes to like mediums and ideas I never seen. Like she didn't let me get into senior studio, which is like the pinnacle of the high school experience because that was only for the most talented students. So I had this sense that I actually wasn't good enough. So I tried to like focus on something more academic in college but eventually noticed. I love graphic design. I love interior design. I love drawing In painting, and I actually loved book art, I thought I wanted to be a book artists like paper making and bookbinding. And I said, screw it. I had started at one university, and I transferred and went to art school because that was such a deep desire that kept calling me. So I picked a major in my undergrad that was actually 50/50 art and critical thinking, like I took any studio major I wanted, I didn't have to focus on one, screen printing, puppetry fashion design, letterpress printing, I was all over the map. And then I was going into these classes, one was called trans modalities. And the professor Joseph Greg Lee, he's actually deaf. And so he would talk to us about, he could speak but he had a translator about things like, how do you know the taste of a cigar, or the taste of wine when it's written down on these cards, and my brain was going crazy with like making sense of translating information from one modality to another. And yet I'm doing these art forms where I'm doing mixed media practice. So my entire background has been about interdisciplinarity, and crossing things that are unrelated together, and finding new things at the intersection. So this has always been a heartbeat. And it comes from my creative background. It comes from experimenting with making meaning I think that's really who I am. Marc Gutman 16:23 That's great. And thank you so much for sharing that. And so, you know, you went to the arts to Chicago, you went to RisD like it, what point did you then start to think, Hey, I'm gonna like research this whole question of who am I and how do I talk about myself? Because I, you know, it's one thing to be like, oh, I've got this problem. And I don't like going to cocktail parties. And people say, what do you do? And I don't, you know, and maybe you'd read some books. But you went a little further like, like, why? Like, why, like, what, how did that all transpire? And what drove you to really dive deep into the subject? Sarabeth Berk 16:59 I think I started to feel like I was compartmentalizing myself. So I was in the classroom teaching art. And I got her crossroads, I knew I was ready to do more. I wanted to have leadership, I wanted to transform education, like I'm a person that wants to blow shit up and create new school systems. And like, you know, universities, k 12. None of it's working. Let's start over. I'm an innovator that goes back to the disrupter too. And in order to do that, I needed people to see me as more than an art teacher like that was how people saw me serve if you teach art, and I was like I do. But I'm also actually on the side creating websites. And over here I'm making and selling art on Etsy. And, oh, I'm starting to learn about research because I was taking grad school on the side. And in order to leave the classroom, I started applying to jobs that weren't teaching jobs. And in my cover letter, I noticed I started writing, I'm Sarabeth, and I'm an artist slash educator slash designer, I started using slashes. Because I needed people to see I have different sides to myself, because the teacher part was so strong and dominant. And by putting slashes, I was like, well, it's not a comma. It's not an and I'm like, I'm all of this mashed together. I don't know how else to grammatically write it for people to see, like what I'm trying to explain. So that was me, like, I don't know if you've heard of the slash movement. But that's like a thing people use. There's also like the multi hyphen, people that put dashes. So I was already feeling that in myself, I just didn't know, other people did this, too. And then I got to grad school, I decided to work on my doctorate full time, and I was working in an entrepreneurship creativity program on the side. And it was in my doctoral program where I really felt like, I just don't know who I am anymore. Like, I'm not just a teacher. And yet, what am I? And then I learned from honestly, the race, class and gender studies class, about intersectionality, that you actually are the sum of the intersection of all your different identities. And it was like, that's interesting. Yeah, of course, I'm white, middle class woman, and blah, blah, blah, like all these identities, but what about my professional identity? Like I had this moment where I said, Can I ask that question? Just in the professional side of my life? Like, are there intersections between being an artist, designer, teacher, researcher, that became my research question. So because I was in a doctoral program where we're learning to think and act this way, and we're doing quantifiable research, I needed to pick a research topic. So it all kind of dived in that moment of like, my personal pain, the work I was learning to do, and then this curiosity that formed and then so as you as you got interested in this, like, what did you find? Yeah, it was like, where do we start with this? I couldn't go around and ask people like, what are your intersections? Like, how do you see intersectionality Marc in your work because this was like two weird of a question that even i had never been asked before i didn't know how to answer it. so i started a case study of like five different individuals that i followed and observed and interviewed about their work because i thought am i just experiencing this or other people and how do i have a study around that and so i went and started talking to individuals about okay your title is blank you know this thing but what do you really do in that job and very quickly i started hearing people explain the different parts of themselves and then the theme that i started getting across all these interviews and observations was moments when people are just in their zone of genius you and i've talked about that before i love this this discussion and the zone of genius is a place where you're in flow you're at your best you're most energized alive things are effortless and in those moments people were actually explaining without knowing they were saying it how their parts their different identities were being activated if at the same time so this one teacher was like you know i'm being an empath by hearing the problems of my students and giving them guidance and counseling but i'm also sharing knowledge and i'm also bringing in creativity and i'm also this one also this and i was like oh my gosh that's the intersection like is this really how it works that when we feel our best and our work we're in the intersection of our of our work and i started knowing i was on to something like that was the beginning of the hunch so i kept checking it out testing it right like i was trying to understand do more people have this too and sure enough they do. Marc Gutman 21:37 so this is really interesting to me and something that i don't think we've really talked about so i didn't realize that effectively and correct me because i'm going to i'm going to kind of make a statement here that hybridity or that the spirit of it is really looking for that intersection and when you're at your best at work do i have that right so that that's really what we're talking about here? Sarabeth Berk 21:59 Yeah so my focus that i described today currently is hybrid professional identity that as humans we are already hybrid we're a combination of all kinds of identities social personal political everything but i just examine the vein of your professional life and what you do for your work and when people say i do marketing oh but i also do sales and i also do events oh and i'm good at design i'm good at this suddenly you start to hear all the elements all the parts of them and what i've learned is that there's a hybrid space in the professional side of people's life that they don't know how to articulate the best way i heard this explained yesterday with someone i was talking to you she says it's your special blend like when you have all those spices and you combine your spice drawer to make something your hybridity is your special blend of spices that is unique to you no one else has combined identities that way and that's what makes you unique and strong in whatever you're doing for work Marc Gutman 23:03 a common question i get all the time is Marc, can you help me with our brand? yes we help companies solve branding problems and the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email we'll get you booked right away so whether you're just getting started with a new business or whether you've done some work and need a refresh or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there we can help after you book your brand clarity call you'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process will identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh will determine if your business has a branding problem and you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies we'll also see if branding is holding your business back and can help you get to the next level so what are you waiting for build the brand you've always dreamed of again we'll link to that in the show notes or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email now back to the show. So when you— that's really interesting to me like that you have all these special ingredients that become your your hybridity like like i get that like we want to activate what makes us special but like why is it so important that we're focused on this like like why why does it matter? Sarabeth Berk 24:41 totally yeah. i'm gonna reflect it back to you for a second and say Marc, when you tell people you do branding or your you have a brand agency Wildstory like don't a lot of people do that like why do they come to you? Marc Gutman 24:56 They do and you know i'm really this is really a question because i've struggled with this most people come to us because of our background in storytelling and things like that but i spent a lot of years talking about that like i'm a storyteller i you know this and that we're storytelling agency and it wasn't exactly leaning into the the idea of hybridity and what you do but what i did find is really confusing to a lot of people you know and they you know and so they didn't get they didn't get that and they meant different things to different people and so you know from a linguistic standpoint i've really gone back and forth on this topic and i've really thought about like do you use words that are already a schema that people understand to like have them understand what you do and then kind of talk about this idea of why or what makes us special or do you lead with that? And so you know again i'd love to know like why so i guess what you're saying and when you when you put it back on me is it matters because it helps you stand out and it helps you to differentiate but i mean have you experienced any of that yourself? Like where it becomes like a little bit like do you do you follow the norms and say i'm a marketer or do you say or you know do you say i'm a you know something else? Sarabeth Berk 26:16 This is exactly what i've been looking at i've been doing it more on a personal like human level and i think you do it more for businesses and organizations i think the dilemma is pretty much the same essentially yes as humans our brains want to make sense of things we categorize things we label them so that we have that schema of understanding like this is a rose and that's a dog that's a horse but you know shakespeare said a rose by any other name would smell a sweet right like we just gave it that name to give it a name. So essentially, the reason hybridity matters is because when you know the different parts that are important like those special ingredients and you know why they fit together then you know your your uniqueness you know why you're different than all the other roses and fish and dogs because we're all using these generic labels to try and just fit into boxes like you do marketing and you do branding and i do research but then the question is what kind like what kind of branding do you really do and who do you do for and how are you different and what makes you unique? So the hybridity is articulating in a clear way that isn't confusing this is it. This is why we stand out and you can point to it now i still think the notion of hybridity is that it defies language like that is literally one of the things i found in the research when you're in the intersection of multiple things so my primary identities are being an artist, researcher designer, and educator that i put into a venn diagram and then i go okay who am i at the middle of that venn diagram there is no one right or wrong way to name that it's up to me but once i do i sort of give myself a new label and then the way that i help people understand sir about the Creative Disruptor because that's my hybrid title is i say i work at the intersection of being an artist researcher designer and educator which then enables me to radically create innovation strategies and systems for organization and people. and that like three part That's my intro essentially is a give a hybrid title which is my unique label i break it down into the parts because that's what's familiar people know what those parts are but then i describe the relationship of how those parts fit together which is the meaning like why i do it how i'm being an artist educator designer what's the point of that in the world so by giving an explanation of that degree it really actually changes the way people see me they're like they hear my name they see my parts and then they see this is her definition of herself and that's different than all the other artists and educators and researchers we've ever met it's a unique combination i think businesses need that too right like what are the parts and services of what they do and why do they do those things together what what is the relationship between the things and then you start to find those hybrid spaces Marc Gutman 29:23 absolutely and i love that explanation that definition thanks for clarifying that because that to me that makes a lot more sense that you know a bit of the process is to to do the internal workings for you you know it's not necessarily external at first and then it's about it's about helping create that definition and that translation for the external world of like hey this is what my title means and so yeah that makes total sense i love it and and i think that's great and so as you're going through all this research and you were like aha like all right there's this intersectionality like we don't define language like, that's all cool. But like, are you then like, like, what do you do with it? You're like, Okay, I've got this thing. Like, like, now what? Sarabeth Berk 30:10 It's like you're reading my mind. Marc Gutman 30:11 Yeah, this great discovery like you've discovered something amazing! Now what? Sarabeth Berk 30:17 I mean, at the time, I didn't really know if I had discovered anything amazing to me. I thought it was like the best thing I'd ever found. But I didn't know if anybody else cared, right? It's sort of when you invent something, and then you're like, but now what? So essentially, that became my dissertation. So it became this huge document that, you know, maybe 100 people on the world have read. And then it went dormant. Because what was happening was, I was getting more comfortable with being a hybrid, like, I had to own it, and walk into it and live it right? you, you can talk about it, but then it's another thing to be it. And I didn't have the confidence yet. I was like, people are gonna think I'm crazy. If I say I'm Sarabeth, I'm a hybrid. And they'd be like, What are you talking about? So it took me a few years, and I needed that time to socialize and do more observation with more people. Like, I started just networking for my own work, because I was doing innovation strategy with K 12 schools at the time, I'd have coffee meeting, and I was meeting people in the community. And I'd learned about them, and what do they do? And slowly but surely, again, and again, I was noticing people are more than their job titles, they have all these different parts. And they're not good at identifying which parts are the most important to them, nor are they good at explaining how those parts fit together. So I kept seeing the same issues and other people I met. And I would throw it out there and say, you know, have you ever thought you might be a hybrid? And people would be like, what, like, What are you talking about? And then I'll explain a little, and then go, Wow, that's that is me. That's, that makes a lot of sense. So I was validating, it's like any entrepreneur, when you have a new product, like do people want this, does it mean anything to them. And so after a couple of years of that I knew in my heart, I wanted to write a book someday about this. And then getting these stories and more, you know, understanding of how this looked in the world, it helps me find my voice. And it helped me start to see the shape of how do I need to explain this to the mainstream public because I wasn't in the university land anymore. And so that's what I did, I decided to write a book. And honestly, I didn't have a vision. After that, I was like, I'll write the book, and then see what happens. And literally, I published the book came out April 2020. The title of the book is More Than My Title, the power of hybrid professionals, and a workforce of experts in generalists. And the fact that I'd use the term hybrid professional. At the same year, the world was going through a pandemic, and everything was becoming hybridize, work and learning and the events and like all sectors, it was really a moment of just serendipity that I was already thinking about this, and the world started talking about it. So that it's led to a number of interesting conversations. Because Another thing I want to bring up, I didn't know that you can tell me how much you know about it is category creation. Category creation, from what I've learned is when you invent a whole new type of product that the market didn't know they need it. So they're not searching for it yet, like athleisure. That's my favorite example. like nobody knew they needed athletic apparel that could be worn outside and exercised in but now it's everywhere. Yeah. And so hybrid professionals, and hybrid professional identity is a new category of workers, and a new way of thinking about the workforce. And so people aren't searching for this. So the adjacent ways people are still talking about it, is personal branding, and career development. And then the academics that identity research piece. So I'm living in a zone of joining conversations in those other circles, showing them and getting them to think about, don't you mean, hybridity? Aren't we talking about identity here? Like? How does that factor into your career development and the way you brand yourself like that, to me is now how I'm bringing this idea into the world. Yeah, and I think that like, even this idea of personal branding, I mean, for me, like it was kind of an icky word couple years ago, it's like who? personal branding. But it's almost like now to be a modern professional, you have to brand yourself personally, whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're an executive, I mean, you have this identity, to your point, outside of your title. And people are looking to that to be like, well, what else are you talking about? What else are you thinking about? How are you putting your own interesting perspective on the world? And so that that's also just this other kind of thing that's intersecting with this, this time that you're in right now and why hybridity is so Marc Gutman 35:00 So relevant and so cool. And so you wrote a book, like, what was that? Like? I mean, did you it's not an easy process. And you're in, you know, you've just written a huge dissertation, not just but you've written a huge dissertation. So you've already spent some time in the sort of the ooey, gooey middle of this topic. And then you decide to write a book. I mean, did you have doubts as you're writing that book that anyone was even going to be interested or care about this topic? Sarabeth Berk 35:29 Oh, my gosh, the journey to the book was really interesting. Because I, if you hadn't noticed, I'm the high achiever overachiever. Like I set a goal for myself, and I go for it. And I literally just accomplish it. I don't just talk about things I do. Um, and so I gave myself a year after finishing grad school, to take a break. And then I was like, I'm gonna start writing the book. And I didn't know what I was doing. And every Sunday I was forcing myself to sit down and log hours. And it was painful. Because what I didn't see at the time, I just, I didn't know it yet. Like, I didn't know what I was trying to write and say, Yeah, I hadn't found it. So after a few months of just putting myself through the ropes, I stopped and laid it down. I think I also got distracted by work projects. And my other goal at that point was, I need a book agent, right? Like, I need a literary agent to be a serious author. I'm not going to self publish. So I took a little bit of time trying to send proposals and get an agent and I got some bites. But I learned quickly, it's about the size of your audience. They're like, how many followers do you have? How big is your email list, your Instagram, all of that. And I didn't have a presence yet. And they said, come back to us when you have x 1000. It was like 10 or 20,000, it was pretty high. So I was feeling defeated. And I kept talking to more authors. How did you do it? What did you do, and it's just a really crazy journey. It's one of the most opaque industries on how you publish books. And everyone's story was different. Essentially, you either self publish, or you get a giant house like Penguin Random House. And somewhere in the middle is independent publishing, which is actually called hybrid publishing. So long story short, I found a woman who is in the independent publishing world, she became a book coach for me. By the time I found her, I had validated and had a lot more confidence, I'd done a TEDx. I gotten asked to do some big speaking. In those speaking engagements, I was talking about this idea to audiences that I had no touch points with right there were cold. So I was starting from scratch with them. And by the end, they were just blown away, like the comment I get the most is, my mind is blown right now. And to me, that meant Wow, this was a really impactful idea that I'm sharing, then. So the questions they started asking me things like, Well, how do you figure this out? How do I do this myself? What are the Venn diagrams? How do I look at the intersections that started giving me the fuel of these are the questions I need to write about in the book, this is what people want to know. And this is how they want to know it, I just need to find the best way to share it. So suddenly, I had a lot more inspiration, I knew my audience, I had this book coach, the writing the book, honestly, Marc, I did it in four to five months, like I started around Thanksgiving of 2019. I have the manuscript, final draft by like February, because I was aiming to polish by April. So it was like, that's what happened. Marc Gutman 38:26 That's a good experience and once you're aligned, that it all happened. And so when you think about this topic, and you think about people who are struggling with this idea, are intrigued by this idea, or their minds are just they're listening to this for the first time, and their minds are blown, as you say, what, like, what's the first step they can take? Like? What's the like? What's something someone can do to start to explore this further? Sarabeth Berk 38:51 Yeah, no, great question. Because I do have a whole process, right? Um, the first thing is really to start with where you are right now, current state, what do you call yourself? What do other people call you? What are your kids call you, your friends, like notice all these different ways you're being labeled, and the names you're using? Then you start to brainstorm a list of all those different identities. And it's really important to know that identities and actions are different. So when you ask someone, what do you do, they start telling you actions like I do some marketing and branding, I help people I mentor, a coach on the side. Those are all actions. So convert that back to an identity. Who are you when you do that thing? Just because people are doing marketing or helping with branding? Do they call themselves a marketer? Are they a brander? And sometimes it's one to one they're like, yes, of course, when I do marketing, I am a marketer. And other times are like, actually, when I'm doing this branding thing, I'm I'm more of an i via navigator, or I'm a wayfinder or I'm I'm crystallizing, I'm a catalyst. So you realize there's other identities you are that you're not showing or talking about if that makes sense so it's really the first step is taking an inventory and doing a really big brainstorm on all the identities you're showing up with and that you're using and then the next big step is to narrow down you go through and you see which identities i call them are your primary and which are your non primary or like really like your secondary tertiary and the biggest difference between primary and non primary is your primary ones are the ones you use most frequently like every day because they bring you joy you feel alive they're the expertise you want to be known for. For me it's the artist researcher educator designer like that is my core foundation of course i'm still doing like graphic design and event planning and these other things but i don't use those every day and that's not my best identity so you look at your brainstorm list and then narrow it to your primary ones and you have to have at least two to be a hybrid right like two identities combined will make one intersection three identities is sort of the sweet spot i think three is what most people are usually in for is the upper limit if you have more than four primary identities you've got to keep narrowing because there's just too many intersections so that is the beginning of this work the second part i call investigating the intersections that is where things get really hard like time and again that's where people struggle because it is literally a space if that's unconscious and you've never thought of who am i in my intersections like that's a whole different conversation we need to have. Marc Gutman 41:41 love it thank you i feel like that's that's so actionable and you know you talk about struggle i mean like what's hard about it you know like what were what is hard for everyone to wrap their minds around like what don't we know about this this whole hybridity thing? Sarabeth Berk 41:59 Yeah well let me play with that with you for a second if i walked up to you and said hey Marc, tell me how you're unique how are you unique in your work ready go like what would you say? Marc Gutman 42:09 Well i would say there's a whole list of things so i think that'd be my first challenge you know there'd be like it but then there's also this thing i don't like talking about myself you know and i don't like in that way you know and saying these are the things and i don't know if you encountered that a lot but like these are the things i'm good at like it's it's truly hard for me to to say that and i encounter a lot of people that also struggle with it but that's me personally. i don't know if that holds up in your experience as well. Sarabeth Berk 42:38 i would just say like rule of thumb the majority of people if they were confronted and asked in this moment to explain how they're unique and different in whatever they do they would either a kind of like draw a blank like be caught off guard i don't know i need a moment b they would be unsure they'd be like i it's hard to describe or like i know i am unique but like how do i put it into words or the the other one is just your uniqueness is it's just it's like the wrong way to approach this because like you need tools to see yourself and to be able to read oh i know what i was gonna say the third one is they get to general they'll say something like i'm really good at problem solving like my superpower is asking really great questions and it's like what does that even mean right? Like these are really broad things like everyone says they're good at problem solving i'll be honest i hear that a lot so the trick that i use and this is another strategy i have it's called your first best or only. and so instead of approaching it with where are you unique which is ultimately what we're trying to suss out in finding your intersections and your hybridity. If you look at yourself and go okay where have i been the first on something like the first project i did the first client i landed the first it started a new process it could be on a team or in a company or the best like you were the top in your group the top in a region and the only you were one of a kind no one else has even done this thing yet right pull out those stories try and get like one per category and that will start to reveal this is you in a moment of uniqueness so i was like the first to launch and lead this innovation ecosystem around early childhood wow okay so let me break that down what was i doing who was i in that moment to do that thing what identities were showing up when i was in that first moment if you so going into my research hat for a moment there's a notion of triangulation what triangulation means is when you're collecting data if you only have one data point you don't know what that means, if it's good or bad and if you have two data points then one might be good one might be bad so you don't know which it is but if you have a third it's the tiebreaker right it's like okay two of them are good or two are bad so you know you're leaning more this direction. that's how it goes, I think in learning about your hybridity. So if you can think of three stories that represent your first best or only, then you can start to say which identity showed up in story number one, which identities are number two, which are number three, and you start to look for identities that are consistent across these moments to figure out, Oh, those are the identities that are really true to me, like these are the ones I'm using the most. And they're important. And that is just one way to start to find your uniqueness. There's a lot of tools and tricks I use in this work, because this is a very deeply reflective process. I did a crash course this weekend with individuals and one of the participants that if the best he said, Sarabeth, this work, is like feeling muscles you didn't know you had after a really hard workout. Like I start asking people questions they have literally never been asked before. And that's why their minds are blown. They're like, Oh, my head hurts. And I have to give them a break. Like we can't do the whole thing in a day or in an hour. It's kind of broken into segments. And this is why, I'm literally making you step out of yourself. Like it's metacognition like watching what you're doing, and who you are, when you're doing it, to start to see patterns and start to truly notice what specifically you're doing that other people don't do, which then creates that recipe back to the ingredients of who you are in your hybridity. Marc Gutman 46:28 I don't think I'm supposed to ask you this. Because probably like, children, you're not supposed to say your favorite hybrid titles. But could you share a couple of your favorites that you've either helped to bring out of people or they just have have come your way? Like, what are some of your favorite titles that we can leave the audience with? Sarabeth Berk 46:51 Yeah, no, totally. It's a great, great, great question. And I think examples are really important. So I'm so glad you asked. So yeah, it's not a bad question. One gentleman I got to work with. He was describing himself as a project manager, essentially. And he was unhappy with with his work and just felt like not all the parts of him were being used. So we went through this journey and unpacked and by the end of it, he realized he was really the tension methodologist. He was balancing energy and projects or resources, and he was managing tension, but he had a methodology to it. And he's like, That is me the tension methodologist. Someone else I worked with, she is the methodical Weaver of wonder. She's really good at pulling visions out and weaving them together. And she again, has a really special way she does it. this other guy, he's the human hitmaker, someone else call themselves a serial adju agitator. He was merging two words education and agitator together. And another one is the spiritual sparkplug. Those are a few off the top my head. Marc Gutman 47:57 I love it. I love it. Well, where can our listeners learn more about you and dive deeper on this topic? We'll make sure to link to everything in the show notes. But why don't you go ahead and let people know where they can learn more about how to how to like, kind of dive deeper on this topic. Sarabeth Berk 48:12 Yeah, I would love that. So I'm on clubhouse a lot. So I hope to see you in rooms there if you are. But MoreThanMyTitle.com is my website, all kinds of goodies and freebies, a lot of tools, like the word list is up there and Venn diagrams. And then I'm on Instagram at @MoreThanMyTitle as well. And I just started doing some LinkedIn live so people can see me, I'm really talking to people about their stories of being hybrid. So I'm a little bit of everywhere, like you. Marc Gutman 48:39 Awesome. And as we come to a close here, Sarabeth, I want you to think back to that, as you described it the the wallflower version of you in high school. And you know that that version of you that was told that you weren't good enough to get into that art program. And, you know, if she were able to see you today, what do you think she'd say? Sarabeth Berk 48:59 I mean, my first reaction is all like just really a lot of surprise and shock. Because this, this is something I would have never ever ever envisioned on myself. There's no way. I don't know where it came from still like, I think I've surprised myself a lot. Yeah, great question. Marc Gutman 49:23 And that is Dr. Sarabeth Berk, Creative Disruptor at More Than My Title. I've often struggled with fitting in and how to describe myself. That, in Sarabeth's words, there was no language for the intersections of my identities. Hearing Sarabeth's insights and methodologies has allowed me to see myself in a different light, and I hope it's helped you as well. I also loved your actionable teaching, especially the first best only exercise. I'll be working on that one this weekend over a journal and some coffee. A big thank you to Dr. Sarabeth Berk and the More Than My Title team. We will link to all things Sarabeth and More Than My Title in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast at wildstory.com. Our best guests like Sarabeth come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie to you other storytellers can't deny Transcribed by https://otter.ai ‍

Traditional Eastern Healing with Yadi Alamin and Joi Abraham Yadi Alamin was severely ill in 2000. The medical drugs he was prescribed made him sicker and he contemplated suicide due to pain and emaciation. Yadi's mother recommended he get acupuncture. Yadi got more than that. He credits the acupuncturist for saving his life. Yadi learned Eastern Traditional Healing Arts and Exercise and has been helping people since his recovery. Charlotte Reflexology opened in 2012, and has grown since training Joi Abraham to work in clinic. Yadi is the apprentice of 3 Master Acupuncturists,  a six-time Certified Reflexologist, and a Tibetan Medical QiGong Therapist. He has 18 years clinical experience in Traditional Chinese Medicine, No Needle Acupuncture, Reflexology and Medical QiGong for Serious Conditions. Yadi was diagnosed with a potentially fatal disease at 24, and learned how to heal himself without surgery, drugs and a cocktail of herbs. His philosophy is simple “do what works, and do it often.” He has had clients recover from a host of ailments using QiGong, Reflexology, and food-based methods. Eastern Traditional Healing Arts & Charlotte Reflexology School Qigong Saved ME www.feedingfatty.com Full Transcript Below Roy - Feeding Fatty (00:03): Hello, and welcome to another episode of feeding fatty. This is Roy I'm Terry. So our show is I, um, you know, it's kind of a personal journey. What we'd like to do is, uh, share my journey. Terry is my support. I take all the credit for the fatty part of this, but, uh, she works diligently trying to, you know, help keep me on track with the eating ex, getting out of my chair and going and exercising and, you know, with COVID and working from home, it's become much more easier to be sedentary. And I posted a new video yesterday and we're going to try to post more, uh, little video clips of me being out, uh, you know, at the gym yesterday. So anyway, we appreciate you tuning in and listening. The other thing is, uh, you know, we always like to have, uh, professionals and other experts in areas come on with us, uh, to give us not only some things to think about, but points of view, and also people to reach out, to, uh, talk to, to help us through our journey. So, uh, today we have some awesome guests and Terry, I'm going to let you introduce them. Terry - Feeding Fatty (01:07): Yeah, today we would love to welcome Yadi Alamin and Joi Abraham from Charlotte, traditional healing, formerly Charlotte re reflexology and Yadi Alamin was severely ill. And two in 2000, the medical drugs, he was prescribed, made him sicker and he, he, uh, due to pain and emaciation yadda, his mother recommended he get acupuncture and he got more than that. He credits the acupuncturist for saving his life. He learned Eastern traditional healing, arts and exercise, and has been helping people since his recovery. Um, Charlotte traditional healing opened in 2012 as Charlotte reflexology and has grown since, since Joi, Abraham trained to work in the clinic. And she is a clinician as well. So welcome both of you to the show. We are so excited to hear more about all of this very interested. Yes. Yadi (02:16): Thanks so much for that warm introduction. Good morning. Good morning. Roy - Feeding Fatty (02:22): We are both interested in, you know, we kind of had some pre-show conversation that we, uh, been looking forward to this for a couple of weeks now, but unfortunately with our, uh, you know, knowledge base, uh, it's gonna be difficult for us as good to, you know, intriguing questions. So we, we're going to try not to be an audience here. We're going to try to jump in and add something to the conversation. But, um, you know, with that said, if you don't mind Yachty, could you just kind of tell us a little bit more about what got you started or, uh, you know, how that transformation looked? Yadi (02:56): Sure. Um, I used to work in phlebotomy. I used to draw blood. I was a vampire. I was a medical Porter as a really young guy, and I worked in, um, pharmacy in mail order pharmacy. So I had already worked in Western medicine, you know, up until about 2000. So everything that I knew was Western medicine. My father was a chemical engineer. My mother mother's a teacher. I'm from the Midwest. I'm from Illinois, grew up in Chicago. So I'm not as long Asia. I didn't have any experience in anything outside of the norm. Um, but I got very sick, uh, and ended up in the emergency room because my heart was beating too fast and I couldn't breathe. And I'd never really been sick in my life. I was a wrestler. I was a boxer. I did, I think, karate or whatever when the karate kid came out. Yadi (03:54): And, and that was about, you know, it was, I thought I was tough, but all of a sudden, you know, my heart's beating too fast and I can't breathe. I called the ambulance and I, now I'm clueless because now I'm a patient I'd never been on that side. And, uh, they gave me Xanax and told me I had anxiety and they were so quick to give me the drug. And I didn't know anything about the drugs. I just took it. And within two weeks I had ended up in the ER, seven times. Wow. And by that time, uh, it was the same diagnosis, but then eventually they said, well, we've been an x-ray $10,000. We did an x-ray and we think you have ulcerative colitis. We want you to go see a GI specialist, blah, blah, blah, go see him. Uh, they told me, no, you don't have colitis, but I'm going to send you to a GP. I go to a GP, nothing. And finally, they sent me to an immunologist and told me I had idiopathic auto-immune hepatitis. Joi (04:50): Wow. That again, literally Yadi (04:56): Nothing. If you go back, that means they don't know why you have it. Auto immune was a guest and then hepatitis had his liver and then items, inflammation. I didn't know this really. I was like 24 years old and I believed everything they said, but I was losing weight quickly. And I went down to about 118 pounds. And you can tell, like, I'm spinning as is, imagine 30, uh, 40 pounds lighter. Wow. Um, and at that point they said, you're going to take these drugs. You're going to take interferons. Like you have hepatitis or you're going to die. And, um, I, I had been sick from the medication on top of being sick. I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep. Uh, every symptom was magnified by a million. Like my heart would just pound. I would stand up the room would spin. And, um, I gave up, so for about a year, I did what people do. Yadi (05:51): I went on at the time it was Yahoo and I Google, um, I went on Yahoo and I'm like, yeah, what do you do to fix your body? You don't know anything. How do you heal from disease? And you realize that the world is not built that way. And people are selling things for symptoms. And you're going to keep buying things as long as your complaints. Uh, about a year later, I was suicidal and I called my mother who was down here in Charlotte. Uh, and I said, mom, I want to die. And she said, well, don't do that. Go to an acupuncture, Joi (06:23): Please don't do that. Yadi (06:26): Yeah. And she really didn't know what she was saying, but it was kinda like this don't don't kill yourself. You know, I found the guy in a book, um, Chinese guy wearing, um, a pool, like the comfortable uniform you see in the old Shaw brothers, seventies movies. Right? Well, he can like me in the neck. Joi (06:45): Right. Yadi (06:49): It wasn't much different. It, it went very deep. Uh, he checked my pulse, he looked at my tongue. He told me, uh, liver, kidney spleen, which I didn't know what he was talking about. Exactly. Was very thick. Put me on the table for about 20 minutes. And he's doing these, you know, these body manipulations, like pressing and rolling and grunting and putting his hands on the radiators. It was cold. So he put his hands on the radiator and he's Yadi (07:20): Like, I'm like, whatever, you know, uh, whatever you want to do is fine. Place smelled like fish. The fish market is a Chinatown. So fish markets down the hall, sort of, and his liniment and fish smell in there. I can get up. And I got to tell you the first time in a year I could breathe. I didn't feel like I was going to die. And, um, I knew this man was helping. So I just, um, I borrowed money. I was a patient for about eight, nine months, ran out of money to borrow and beg to be a student. And that's kind of what happened. I became a student and eventually decided that I didn't want to work in corporate America when I got well, because I think the whole thing was set up to keep people in that medical loop of owing money and being sick. Yadi (08:07): And, uh, if you get close enough to dying, you just want to be honest with people. You can't, you don't have the energy to lie or put on errors or be somebody else. So the only honest thing that I could do would be help people who ask me for help. And, um, I spent seven years in Chinatown before I quit. Cause I was making $10 an hour, the businesses, uh, a half a million a year, and I'm making $10 an hour. I went to go work for the, the, um, the Dean of, uh, Sydney college of Oriental medicine. I worked as a TA with no degree in acupuncture. I was with him for about five years. And then I moved here and couldn't find anyone to work under. So I opened this clinic. That's where her stories. Joi (08:53): Yeah. Joi. How about year? Let's hear about Roy - Feeding Fatty (08:56): You. That's awesome. Speaker 5 (08:58): Oh, wow. Um, my side of the story I put up, never orchestrated this myself any better. Um, I have always been interested in Asian medicine and health and healing, and I went through my own issues. Um, but interestingly enough, I went to live in Japan for a few years. And that is where I had my first Asian medicine experience. I had heard about Asian medicine in America, but it wasn't Japan when I experienced it for myself. And I brought my health issues from America to Japan. And in Japan, they did not like for you to take time off. They want you to be at work. Speaker 5 (09:44): If you have a problem that prevents you from going to work, they want to know what it is. So, uh, you know, I would be sick every month and they would ask me, yeah, they would ask me what's the problem. And then I said, you know, I have these issues every month, but I can't come in and we'll say, well, would you like to see, uh, a doctor? I said, yes, but I do not want to see a Western doctor. I'd rather see an herbalist. They took me to the herbalist and I explained my symptoms and they prescribed something called reishi mushroom. Everybody probably knows what that is by now in this country. But at the time I had never heard of it. And they gave me this hard crusty mushroom, and I was supposed to make a tea out of this. It was red. Yeah. It was red. And I said, what do I do here? I said, you know, take a hammer, break it up and make a tea, take a hammer. And I said, Roy - Feeding Fatty (10:40): You'll have to back up because now I really, I don't know what that is. So yeah, taking a hammer to break up a mushroom. That is a new concept for me. Speaker 5 (10:48): Well, really, she must remain as the hard Woodland mushrooms and then it grows, it grows very hard. So when it's dried, it gets even harder. And it's very much like wood it's artists to add to that. Um, racy in, in Chinese is called lynching and Ling means, um, soul or spirit almost. So in, um, in Asia for a long time, they believed in reincarnation. And they said, if you were good in this life, you reincarnate as mushroom. Roy - Feeding Fatty (11:25): Oh, interesting. Okay. Speaker 5 (11:29): But it tasted bad really bad. Roy - Feeding Fatty (11:32): Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I interrupted. So anyway, I kind of go back to that process. So you have it, you break it up with a hammer and then I guess you put it in a cup and make tea out of it. Speaker 5 (11:44): Yeah. You boil it and then you make the tea and strain that off and then drink it. And I was to do it twice a day and, uh, it tasted bad, but I followed the direction and it worked. It was the first time that anything natural for me had actually work. I was able to go to work without any problems. And they noticed, Oh, Joi. He must be feeling a lot better. Joi (12:12): How long, how long did it take for it to start working for you? Speaker 5 (12:16): About two months, it took about two cycles. Okay. So, um, you know, doing that and doing it and being dedicated to it was difficult, especially when you didn't exactly know what it was going to do, but I trust the process and I'm glad I did because I did see the results. So I continued to do that while I was there. And I was very happy with that method. So I stayed there for three years and then I came back to America and at the time reishi, it, it was just starting to become known, but I wasn't able to find that kind of hair here. So, you know, my health deteriorated again and it got to the point where I couldn't walk and I was only 37 years old and I was having hip arthritis. And that was very devastating, especially if you traveled and you've moved along everywhere and you walk really fast and you know, you're reduced to walking in pain with a cane. Speaker 5 (13:19): So I knew there was something that I needed to do or walked into the health food store. Cause I wanted to find something to try to start the process. You know, naturally he went again and I saw him, I'm a native of Charlotte. And he worked at the local health food store and I'd never seen him before. I said, okay, this is going to be interesting. So I walked up to him and I said, Hey, do you have Chinese bitters? And he kind of pauses for a minute. And he looked at me like, kind of strange, like there was this question and he said, no, what do you need it for? And you know, I told him, I, I told him all of my health issues and what I wanted to use him for. And this guy says, well, why don't you just do reishi mushroom? Joi (14:00): Wow. That's destiny. Yeah. Speaker 5 (14:06): But I knew when he knew what he was talking about. And through the second thing he said while we were talking was that he had been studying Chinese medicine year. And I thought to myself, does this guy look like we'd be able to study in 15 years, the beauty thing he looked so Joi (14:22): In meats Speaker 5 (14:25): And found out we had a lot in common, especially about Asian medicine. And I knew that, uh, I had met the right person. So he invited me to cheek on club, which was great. I had never had to, I've been in movement and dance for all my life. And I had never done that. So I went to cheek on class and I never stopped doing cheekbone after that. And then you explain to Roy - Feeding Fatty (14:52): Us, can you explain to us what a cheat dong is she quick she's gone. Yadi (14:59): Um, so she gone after China changed their politics. They created that word too long before that it probably would have been called like young sin or, uh, nourishing, nourishing health nourishing light, or a Dallion or the path within it's kind of a generic word. It's almost like saying a martial arts or saying, uh, health. And she goes, I'm going to be a lot of things, but when you standing and be breathing can be, uh, very physical. It can be meditation. It could be teaching could be many things, but it's abroad. Okay. Okay. Roy - Feeding Fatty (15:44): I'm sorry, Joey. I didn't mean to interrupt you again, but I just, that's a term that I'm just unfamiliar with. So those, okay. Yadi (15:50): It was a great question that, especially in the seventies, you know, like with, with the Chinese, when you say words in English, uh, that's called whether you spell it out, it's called opinion. Right. And, uh, that's changed over the years. Like years ago you could order pay King duck, right. Pay King is now Beijing. Right? Right. So in the seventies, when she came here, they spelled it Chi K U N G like clean food cheap, but now they spell it with a Jew and the Cuban sounds like, sure. So if you see Q I G O N G she gone. Um, yeah. If that helps anybody I'm okay. Roy - Feeding Fatty (16:31): Yeah. Go ahead. Joi. Sorry to interrupt Yadi (16:38): Problem. I think we were getting to like how Keith on the cheek. And I remember one time after class, or actually we were hanging out and I wasn't same age. So we, you know, we grew up in the same time period and somebody, all of the things that you did or, you know, similar music flows, you know, a lot of like, I always tell people like nowadays, um, like hip hop and rap music is big. It's, it's huge. And it's mainstream. When we grew up in the eighties, it was not mainstream. Like you had dance, music rock. We had house new. You had like this goal, which died, you had pop music, but rap was not a big thing. You know, now everybody wants to rap. And some of the people who rap are over 40, 50 years old. And I always tell people, if you saw the space shuttle crash, Oh gosh, you should stop rapping. Right. Speaker 6 (17:53): That's like save and close, you know, save and close that you think you'll fit into. You know, it's going to come back around. Well, if it comes back around again, you're too old to wear it, you know, Speaker 5 (18:06): Boom gone by that point. But, um, uh, yes, we were hanging out one night and I had a flare of arthritis and I couldn't walk, but I was trying not to show it to him because I didn't want him to worry about, you know, me not being able to walk, but of course he likes to walk fast. Uh he's from Chicago. So he's like, okay, what's wrong? And I told him, you know, I have, uh, hangs in my head too. It's a really nosy, you know, so he said, okay, we get to this little space in the park. And he said, why don't we do this? She goes, that he did not tell me it was an advanced sense. And that we were going to be doing this for a full 20 minutes. And we're, it's the summer night and it's really hot outside. So I'm doing this advanced, she gone that I have to hold my arms out. Speaker 5 (19:09): I had to control my breathing. I start sweating. And then I started feeling pain in my leg and I'm looking at her like, Oh, hate this. Why do I have to do the aspirin? Give me stop. No, just keep doing it. He was very calm. We were just doing it for the whole 20 minutes and the whole 20 minutes. I hated it. I hated him. I hated being there. And then finally the 20 minutes was over and I was so upset, but I got to walk. I went to walk and there was no pain wow. At home. And I didn't believe that that was actually true. So I tested it. I walked up Hills, I ran downhills. I walked in circles. Cause when I have put my Fridays, I would turn and I would try to shift quickly. And my hip joint would not move because of the plane, but I didn't have them. And I could walk around in circles and it was pain-free and it lasted for three whole days. Wow. No pain relievers, no medication for three days. And I was convinced that that was something that I needed to do continue school. That's how I got into what you do. Speaker 6 (20:23): It's true. Speaker 5 (20:26): You able to see me go from walking without a pain, to being able to walk as fast as you want. And it did not take very long in order to see that change. You've seen somebody standing in a horse stance and low in the stance they'll have their arms up in some kind of position. Right? Um, Yadi (20:48): Likewise, Speaker 5 (20:51): It Yadi (20:51): Was light that only arms were straight out and the fingers were kind of bent like this. And then there were certain movements in between. So it's a, it's a martial arts kind of stance. Um, and it was 20 minutes. Wow. It was long enough. 20 minutes is long enough for the kidneys to filter every drop of blood in your body. So if you do something for 20 minutes straight, if it's walking or if it's deep breathing or whatever, um, if you're excited for 20 minutes, that's enough time to change the way your blood chemistry looks under a microscope. Interesting. That's a big deal. Yeah. And so, you know, for, for people who want to learn anything, you want to learn yoga, you want to do walking or whatever it is you want to learn. She gone do it for 20 minutes. 20 minutes is probably a good cutoff. Um, because after that, that's when you go into the negative return cycle, like if you keep doing it after that, that's when you fatigue, that's when the pain comes. So it was good to do things in 20 minute cycles. Why you're a beginner, you know? But yeah. That when, when Jordan, um, you want to help somebody that's in pain. Right. And we just met and you know, we, um, I don't know. It's hard to look, uh, young and attractive when you're limping. You know what I mean? Like it's hard to be, Speaker 5 (22:13): Apparently I try. I tried. Um, but yeah, in the end he could tell, you know, cause he's used to movements, he's into body movement, body moves and, and you know, as a dancer, I understood that. And you're trying to hide that didn't work very long because then you start to see it in other parts of your body. So that's what he was thinking. Roy - Feeding Fatty (22:38): So now do, y'all just, uh, do y'all work mostly with people with, I would say like a physical ailment, like, you know, like a joint pain or something in that movement issue or is it, you know, because I think of like the, uh, uh, overeating and smoking and I think of all those types of things as well. Yadi (22:58): Well, yeah, it is a good question. Uh, Speaker 5 (23:02): Well we see a lot of different kinds of issues. Yadi (23:05): Asian medicine is holistic. So if the person has a movement problem, um, joints are connected to your liver and your gallbladder. If you have, if you're smoking, there's usually an emotional reason why, and there's a physical reason why, um, and that's more holistic how we deal with it. So, you know, there's the chemical part that you may be addicted to nicotine, but then there's the feeling you get when you take deep breaths, you can take long exhales. A lot of times people smoke because they don't get a chance to just take a deep breath and instantly excuse to let things go. Because these threats interesting, interesting times my Japanese teacher would say the same thing. She really likes smoking because she could relax and I never understood that, but it made a lot of sense. Roy - Feeding Fatty (23:54): Yeah. And you know, it's funny you bring that up because that's something that, um, it's something that has been pointed out for me in the past is the breathing part. And it's, uh, something I didn't even realize, but like, uh, you know, I did some martial arts training and uh, my sensei would, he would walk by me all the time and tap me on the shoulder and say, take a breath. You know, because I would just, I guess, get so tensed up doing that. And then another time it was a fun setting. We were out at a paint painting party where they have a lady instructor painting. And so you, she says get brushed one and paint green. And so I was following her instructions and she came by and tapped me on the shoulder and said the same thing, you know, and this was all in the same time period. Roy - Feeding Fatty (24:39): And she's like, this is fun. You can take a breath. It's all right. And I thought, you know how these other people could see that in me, you know, but I could not see it in myself. And so I, uh, you know, I actually had a, um, a list of things to do every day over my desk. And one of them was to breathe. Just a reminder that take those deep breaths. Because even if I'm not thinking about it, I feel, um, short breaths. I don't feel like I ever like and do that, but that's a good, um, I guess that's a good analogy for the smoking that I'd never thought about is people, you know, having that big release and that big exhale. Yadi (25:17): Oh yeah. Can we do something for fun? Is that All right? I'm glad you brought up breathing. Um, because this is an exercise that works really well for people who experienced anger, frustration. Um, and it's just something you can do with breathing. You don't have to deal with any body movements. Um, let's make it as realistic as possible. Find something that makes you angry. Roy - Feeding Fatty (25:46): Yeah. My internet connection. I don't have to look that far. I had some internet troubles this week and I like to throw my chair out the window and Terry stopped me from doing that like, Oh God. Yeah. Yadi (25:56): Yeah. Okay. So to be authentic, everyone let's do this together and find something that makes you upset and feel how your body responds to the feeling of being angry and being angry. Like, okay. So a lot of times you feel the tension in the chest, the throat will get a little tight. You might even feel heat in the cheats and under the eyes. Right? So I want you to remember how that felt when you thought of it. This is not hypnotism. This is just, she'd gone. We're going to take a breath in. And as you exhale, I want you to make a sound. The sound is shoo shoo, next time you do it. I want you to inhale. It was standing in front of a big green tree and you can see the green leaves. You inhale fresh air in the tree and then exhale the sound. One more time. You're standing in front of a tree, bright green leaves. You inhale. And then exit go back to the thing that made me angry. Well, back to what made you upset and think of it. See what your body is done. Roy - Feeding Fatty (27:11): Yeah, no reaction. Interesting. Yeah. Wow. Yadi (27:18): What if I told you what was going to happen, then it's hidden. It's hidden, right? I don't tell you naturally. So the problem is being angry. Isn't the problem. It's the problem that we hold on to anger. And then we take anger with us. Like it's helpful to us. Angry was just inspired to be angry when you're angry, but to be angry when you're not even angry, that's, that's resent mint. And that becomes dizzy. That becomes where you hold onto the tension or you waste all that, all that energy. Yeah. Sometimes we're taught that a physical ailment may have started as an emotional issue first. And a lot of times when you start to heal the physical, the emotional, then it come up and you have to deal with both at the same time. Yeah. Roy - Feeding Fatty (28:04): Yeah. There's a, there's a great saying that I heard years ago, it was like that being mad at somebody or holding on to some anger with somebody else it's like drinking poison and hoping that somebody else dies. You know, Yadi (28:20): That's a big thing. If you think about the word resent, it means sent twice. We sent. And a lot of times when somebody has cancer or somebody has a disease that's rotting and festering inside them, they carry. Even if they're the sweetest person to you, they carry that resentment, that anger, and it becomes a physical thing was now your body is constantly making that tension, constantly making that heat and constantly breathing shorter, as you mentioned. Interesting. Just something that might help people know. That's awesome. Roy - Feeding Fatty (28:53): So let me just, uh, this may be too deep to get into, but maybe we can touch on it. But what about the, um, what about the overeating? I mean, it's like me, you know, every emotion elicits eating, you know, we, we talk about this all the time and it, you know, part of it is culture growing up in habits that, you know, you come home from school or from work and something bad happened and they're like, Oh, let's go get them. You know, let's go eat something, let's go get an ice cream. I'll make you feel better. Or you come home like, Hey, I just won first place and things are great. Awesome. Let's go get an ice cream to celebrate. You know, I was like, you know, you're sad. You're down and get tense, stress, all of that. But, um, anyway, I just love food and uh, I love food. It's a, it's a bad habit. It's, uh, you, I do it unconsciously, you know, sometimes I'll be doing it and think, ah, why am I even doing this? I should've thought about this before doing it. So any, uh, any little helpful tips or tricks for that? Yadi (29:55): Well, the simple answer, why do we overeat? Or what, what does it mean outside of, um, the, the chemicals that we like, you know, sugar makes you feel happy. Obviously you have sugar, um, in, in Oriental medicine, this stomach and the spleen organs are connected with elements of nature. Um, as is the liver. The liver is representative of anger and we connected with wood. The tree was the exercise in terms of food that's earth. So when things are out of control, what you want to do is have rounding and balance. You want to have stability, you want to be stable. So you eat things that make you more stable or make you feel more stable in stock. Okay. Interesting. If you think about it, um, when the pandemic hit, what did people do? They went and bought out everything from the grocery store, right? Yadi (30:53): Well, actually from food and a lot of friends who are trying to create that comfort and safety, usually what we go through first. And that's usually what, like you were saying, most of our special events, right? All that as a way of, uh, combat. So in clinic, we, um, we overeating is often seen as an excess of heat in the stomach. Um, and the stomach is warm. I mean, in, in the West, we know we have stomach acid in, in, uh, Asian medicine. They would call that stomach fire. Um, but what will happen is you'll get too much, uh, you'll have too much heat and it doesn't mean you're digesting. Well, it doesn't mean you have a good metabolism. It just means the fire is burning. The fire is burning and you in clinic, there are things that we would do to kind of reduce the buyer or, you know, disperse the buyer, not to put it out because you have to eat know, and there's nothing wrong with liking. Ooh, it's just moderation is key. Right. My teacher would say moderation, everything in moderation, including moderation. Roy - Feeding Fatty (32:11): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the comfort issue, you know, that's a good point because, um, you know, something that I started years ago was that, uh, you know, kind of not eating like right before bed, I'd be like, uh, you know, leading, wanting something, whatever. But then it got to be, I think it was that comfort feeling like, like if I wasn't full, then I didn't feel like I could go lay down. And so that is one thing that I have noticed is that, you know, and the other thing too, I mean, you, you know, like somebody who's big, like me, I get a little hunger, you know, twinge and like, Oh my God, I got to stop and eat. And then, you know, you think through this, like, I don't know that that little hunger thing is probably going to kill me within the next three or four days. I can probably, you know, wait 20 minutes or an hour to eat a meal instead of getting that snack. So, uh, you know, I know a lot of this is self-awareness and then trying to stop yourself before, you know, taking that plunge. Yadi (33:11): It does take time to be able to find something that you can use to stop you from doing it. You don't replace something with nothing, right. It's not like, okay, we're going to get you to stop eating, just stop. Cause then you go back to what you were doing before. So a lot of the times, um, so, uh, just speaking from my own experience, like my, who was angry, um, I'm a small guy, I'm five 11, you know, I'm 155 pounds and I'm from the city of Michael Jordan. Like I like people are big in Chicago. Um, and I had to fight a lot when I was growing up and I had a chip on my shoulder, which, you know, as we talk about it, doesn't help you as you get older, it just becomes kind of like your problem. Now you have an, I you're just mad. Yadi (34:03): Um, so I would notice that when somebody would say something or I would interact with somebody, I always had this feeling of tension. And when I started doing Chico long exercise and it wasn't the commitment, um, I use the same energy that I would use to be angry, to do whatever with my anger, to talk crazy about you to go punch a punching bag, which I still do. Um, but I would use that energy to go, do she gone? No, I'm not saying she goes the thing. Sometimes it might be calligraphy or it might be, you know, uh, what was the, uh, like demean more in ghosts? Like if you go make pottery, right. But it's, it's, you have to replace one thing that makes you feel good with something else that makes you feel good. You don't just moving out. Like that's, that's like, just like, okay, that makes you feel good. That's the one time you get to be free. No, one's telling you where to be and what to do. And how, how much money are you going to make? What stop. Yeah. Yadi (35:05): Terry and I were talking earlier and I told her that I was a flight attendant and I, I remember I would always accurate flight go find five guys in Dallas international airport because they had the best price. And I always wondered why I wanted to do that after a flight. And I realized that, you know, as a flight attendant, you encounter a lot of people. It's very fast paced and it's very high stress and my stress would be through the roof. But there are certain things that you can't say you can't in front of people and you have to keep certain appearance while you're on a plane chain. Yadi (35:45): But I, I would go and kill a bag of five guys, French fries after the flight. And I, I started to realize that it was making me feel bad afterwards. And I was wondering, why am I always triggered to go do this after you're eating your anger? My frustration. So once I figured out that's what it was, I then had to start going through what I could do then like right there to distress so that I could perform my job, but also not depend on high cards in order to make myself relax. So that is what, uh, that's what I had to do. That's what I would find. One little thing. Yeah. I find little things breathing, maybe getting, um, nice water or something, taking a walk and help a lot. So if I had time in the terminal, I would take a few laps and that would really help. And that made a huge difference. Joi (36:47): What'd you say? Roy - Feeding Fatty (36:51): Yeah. The, uh, I think that's an awesome idea. That the cause that's why I was thinking about is maybe doing some breathing, maybe just drinking water. Uh, anyway, it give me something, cause I have tried to replace that a little bit more, you know, with getting to the gym, instead of sitting around here, you know, eating a popcorn or whatever, you know, get out and go for a walk or, you know, do something more productive Yadi (37:15): And expressing your feelings at the right time to the right person who also important. You don't want to hold in what it is that you're feeling. I mean, sometimes you need to find a way to tell whoever it is that you are experiencing. Um, I'm hungry [inaudible] Joi (37:35): Oh, Yadi (37:40): Um, because we mentioned that, that, uh, that, that hunger, a lot of times comes from heat and a fire. Uh, a simple technique that they do, this comes from the fasting and this is something you could do is very easy. Like you take a simple breath and then exhale, then click your teeth together. About 36 times with the mouth closed, when you do it, you'll generate saliva. And you just switch the saliva around in the mouth and swallow the saliva, which not only lubricates the Brode, but, um, that feeling of, um, being full sometimes diminishing, not saying this is going to work every time we try it. Right. Right. Um, sometimes I was going to say, Oh good, you have all types of things in your saliva that, that are energetic, like immunoglobulins things that your immune system needs, enzymes, even electrolytes are in your saliva. Um, and your teeth are extremely of your bones. So there's an electrical charge that's generated just from clicking with teeth, just like there is when you make impact when you run Roy - Feeding Fatty (39:04): So awesome. Because I, you know, I've heard a long time about the, uh, you know, how much breathing is important. I think y'all reinforce that with these other little tips and tricks that we can do to help disperse some of the anger anxiety, and, uh, you know, maybe think about replacing that, you know, that eat the, not the good, healthy eating, but that snacky type eating. So I know you guys need to get to an appointment. I know you've got something that's coming up. Cause we could actually probably talk to y'all for a couple more hours here. It's just so interesting. And um, you know, I'd love to have y'all, uh, back on the show, uh, to, you know, to go off into this, you know, some of these things a little bit more in depth, but we appreciate your time. Uh, so very much it's been such a pleasure meeting both of you and having this conversation, Yadi (39:54): You too, as well, enJoied it very much. It's fine. Have you pick a little bit of time and share it? Thanks for having us. We appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Roy - Feeding Fatty (40:02): If you don't mind, uh, before we let you go, first off, I'd like to ask both of y'all, uh, what is something that you do every day? And it could be an app, a program, a habit or ritual, what is something that you do every day that you couldn't do without, that really adds a lot of value to you? Yadi (40:22): Your life is. Um, and, and the great thing is to be able to, um, you know, send them a little good morning, you know, my daughter's grown up. Um, yeah, just being able to, uh, to communicate with family on social media is probably one of those things that like we didn't have before that. I, I think it would be hard to live with that. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to spend some time, whether it's five minutes to 30 minutes and silent, no cell phone, no computer. I wake up before everybody else so that I can have that mental space where I have quiet and it sets me up for the day because I, I, both of us are in a situation where we have a lot of people come and ask us a lot of questions and they're asking to help them. And then we deal with people outside, like our families that need help. And then you just need that time where you can get centered and get still. And if I don't do that, it's not a good day. That's awesome. Terry - Feeding Fatty (41:38): Oh yeah. Roy - Feeding Fatty (41:40): Uh, if one of y'all would tell us, so how can people, uh, well, first off, who is your client, uh, what you can do for them and then how people can reach out and get ahold of you. Yeah. Yadi (41:52): Well, if you're in Charlotte or if you're in the Carolinas, you're welcome to come to the clinic. We're close to the border of South Carolina in South park. Charlotte, we have Charlotte traditional healing located about five blocks away from South park. Um, the only mall with the valet that I've seen, um, also you can go to Charlottetraditionalhealing.com, uh, or where you can go to, she gone, qigongsaved.me if you're interested in learning a full set of exercises. Um, and we have, tele-health, we're really big into other things, which we haven't mentioned, but this is, um, yeah, this is how you get ahold of, or call called Joi. Don't send me messages like, Hey man, I got my movies helped me. Like I get, I get those at 3:00 AM. We help people all over the country and depending on the time, we can help people in different types of worldwide. Roy - Feeding Fatty (42:54): Awesome. Well, again, thank you both so much. We appreciate it. Uh, that's going to do it for another episode of feeding fatty. Of course, you can find us at www dot feeding, fatty.com. Uh, this interview, the audio and the video will both go up live. It'll probably be three to four weeks. We'll get that up. Uh, the, uh, also find us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and the video will also be on our YouTube channel. You can find the podcast on all the major platforms, Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, and probably a dozen more. So reach out, give us a listen, should be sharing. Share sharing is caring. So share this with all of your friends, get them involved. We would love it. Visit us on our Facebook group. We'd love to start a discussion with, you know, with our listeners and see what we can do. If you're a professional that can help people with wellness and wellbeing, or if you have a great story, we're always looking for those. So reach out to either me or Terry. We'd love to get you on a future episode. So until then take care of yourself and take care of your family. This is Roy. Terry - Feeding Fatty (44:04): This is Terry Yadi, Joi. Thank you so much. We really appreciate your time and expertise and sharing all of this. Yadi (44:12): Thank you so much for having me. www.feedingfatty.com          

An airhacks.fm conversation with Ben Manes (@benmanes) about: TRS 80, Tandy RadioShack 80 computer, never push the red button, playing Reader Rabbit on 287, the fascination with hardware, the experimentation with water cooling and thermopads, learning C++ and Java at the University in Chicago, starting with Java 1.4 at school, building corporate travel systems with Java 5, the six hour interview at Google with a binary search tree, working on CRM tool at Google, building an enterprise version of iGoogle in Java and GWT, using Guice and GWT GIN to implement iGoogle.next, using a perforce monorepo, perforce was replaced by internal system called "paper", using blaze and bezel build system, bezel is more distributed, one build file per package, starting at a logistics company with Java 15, the jetty, JAX-RS, keycloak,RESTEasy, jooq and google's guice, starting to write a cache in 2008, using memcached and Java Message System (JMS) for synchronization, Java 5 and the Concurrent Linked HashMap / LRU, building Google Guava cache, Concurrent HashMap was used by Apache Cassandra, Google's MapMaker is predecessor to Guava Cache, Caffeine work started in 2008, EHCache was not concurrent back then, Java 5 concurrent HashMap didn't scale well, Java 5 regions in HashMap were too big, there were too many entries per segment, Java 8 uses small hash bins and scales better, Caffeine builds on top of Java 8 ConcurrentHashMap, LRU and every reads is a write, cache policy can be lossy, using dynamically growing data structures, Caffeine uses Java Collections, Caffeine looks like a HashMap, Caffeine adapts automatically to the read-, write-, or mixed workload, Caffeine's configuration is descriptive, refresh policies, cache loader, expiration, asynchronous behavior, listeners, soft- and weak references were supposed to be the solution to everything, hit rates monitoring, micrometer, dropwizard, prometheus monitoring adapters are available, reasearch papers tend to lie, working with cockroachDB committers, Infinispan uses Caffeine, the bias against pre-made stack Ben Manes on twitter: @benmanes, Ben's GitHub account: github.com/ben-manes

EP253 - Amazon Q4 2020 Earnings Amazon Earnings Amazon reported in Q4 2020 earnings on Tuesday Feb 2. Jeff Bezos is stepping down as CEO and moving into an executive chairman role. Read his letter to employees here. We deep dive into the Q4 and full year 2020 results. Sales, profit, and free cash flow were all above expectations. US product sales had a robust 44% YoY increase. 3P continues to grow as a share of sales (now 55% of sales mix). AWS continued to grow. Other income (which is largely ad sales) was up 66% representing $21.477B of revenue in 2020, well above expectations. In other news: Walmart is accelerating it’s automated picking for store fulfillment. Uber has purchased Drizly for $1.1B. We spoke with the VP of Partnerships at Drizly on Episode 163. Episode 253 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded live on Tuesday, February 2nd, 2021. http://jasonandscot.com Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, Chief Commerce Strategy Officer at Publicis, and Scot Wingo, CEO of GetSpiffy and Co-Founder of ChannelAdvisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing. Transcript Jason: [0:24] Welcome to the Jason and Scot show this is episode 253 being recorded on Tuesday February 2nd 2021 I’m your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I’m here with your co-host Scott Wingo. Scot: [0:41] Hey Jason and welcome back Jason Scott show listeners, Jason get him any more bummed out today I was all excited to get the Amazon news Q4 we’re going to see finally how holiday 2020 went this is like one of the first companies reporting this cycle so I was all excited for that and then I got my legs taken out Jeff Bezos is announced that he is going to move from CEO he’s no longer be CEO of Amazon he’s moving to executive director so I’m a little sad about that we’ve seen, a 27-year run he’s one of our biggest fans of the podcast so he’s probably listening right now so Jeff great 27 years is good run and sorry to see you go so I’m going to do I’m going to miss hearing him. Talk about, day one and all is management principles and all that stuff so but I’m sure he’ll go do some cool new stuff how are you feeling about it Jason. Jason: [1:39] Yeah well at first I was excited because I was hoping I wouldn’t get all those like detailed notes that he sends after each episode about what he agreed and disagreed with but then I was informed that he’s mostly stepping out of the the CEO Row in order to have more time to focus on our podcast so. So I’m not sure how that’s going to play out but in all seriousness. Scot: [1:59] Maybe we could co-host the Jason Scott and Jeff show. Jason: [2:03] He keeps asking to come on we’re eventually going to have to relent and let him. In all seriousness though I actually didn’t view this as very big news. In my mind I feel like he had largely already stepped out of the operational CEO role. Late last year early this year and then my understanding is he kind of became much more active and got re-engaged specifically because of covid and so I feel like. He you know kind of sucked him back in and now that he feels like he’s worked through the at least the. The big first wave he’s looking to take a step back again so I kind of view it as him kind of following in your footsteps and building a good company and then you know turning turning over the keys to other operators and. I I think I mean he’s still going to own a bunch of stock he’s still gonna be involved in their strategic decisions I sort of don’t think he was getting. The customer feedback the same way he was earlier in his career even before this so I’m not sure it’s a huge difference. Scot: [3:17] Yeah cool well couple highlights from the letter he sent out I won’t read the whole thing although it’s it’s a good read I definitely recommend everyone look at it so we’re just pick out a couple things here first paragraph I’m excited to announce that this Q3 all transition so he’s so this will happen in third quarter to Executive chair of the Amazon board and Andy Jesse will become CEO that’s interesting because Jeff will key was for long long thought to be The Heir Apparent and then he left recently so there’s seems like there may have been some kind of a. Bit of a struggle secession battle behind the scenes I don’t know what drama there was there but Andy runs the AWS part which has been. Wildly successful but he has he didn’t just come up through cloud computing he has done a little bit of everything at Amazon. [4:06] It continues in the exact chair roll I intend to focus my energies intention on new products and early initiatives that’s interesting because it does leave the door you know we’ve had a lot of these articles about I’m thinking a lot about Shopify so that kind of like leaves the door open there a little bit Andy is well known inside the company and has been an Amazon almost as long as I have he will be an outstanding leader blah blah and then kind of skipping to the end he kind of talks about. Yeah the last 27 years for the first five of the biggest question you got was what’s the internet that was kind of funny and then in conclusion he says as exact chair I will stay engaged and important Amazon dishes but also have the time energy I need to focus on the day One Fund that’s his largely I think it’s focus on homelessness the Bezos Earth fund that’s ones obviously for, climate change kind of stuff and blue origin that’s obviously going to space and the Washington Post which is his little news letter that he has there and my other passions I’ve never had more energy and this isn’t about retiring I’m super passionate about the impact I think these organizations can have so you know I guess the the the bittersweet Part of this is is sad to see believe Amazon but maybe he’ll kick into kind of like an eel on second gear here you know and. Do some other really cool stuff so we’ll see blue origin is moderately interesting I feel like it’s so far behind SpaceX at this point that I don’t know it’s not I don’t follow it as closely as SpaceX. So if anyone wants to read the letter will put a link to it in the show notes. Jason: [5:35] Awesome yeah and it is a really well-written letter he’s a good communicator so I enjoyed the wetter and there were some funny parts but Scott I think we should put our emotions back under the desk and we should jump into the Q4 results. Scot: [5:53] Yep we don’t get to 253 episodes without being consummate professionals so I’m okay let’s go let’s do this thing. Jason: [6:02] Good deal so let’s set the stage a little bit first of all if we think about the shape of the last year you know of course we get the the. Data from the Department of Commerce on on e-commerce growth and so if we look at the last quarters of growth for the entire industry q1 e-commerce was growing at almost 15% 14.8%. Amazon in q1 was growing much faster than that like 27% Q2 which was the main covid impacted quarter where a lot of retail was forced to close e-commerce jump from 14.8% to 44.5% so you know one of the hugest growth in recent history and Amazon almost exactly mirrored that they jump from 27 percent growth. To 41 percent growth Q3 the growth settled down a little bit still twice its historical run rate but Q3 e-commerce industry grew at 37.7% Amazon grew exactly the same at 37% so we don’t have the industry data from Q4 yet that actually, um will get the raw version of that the monthly version on the 17th and then we’ll get the quarterly e-commerce roll up on the 19th so look for a show in the middle of the month from us to kind of recap what happened to the whole industry. [7:31] Part of the reason I’ve been excited for Amazon’s earnings is they do mirror the industry so much that that it’s going to give us a pretty good hint of where. Where the whole industry should come in at their guidance so what they told the Mark had to expect was around 38% so you know that would be similar to their Q3 growth. And so that’s that’s kind of. Where we were going in and then once the markets closed today they made their announcement and Q4 net sales growth was drumroll 44 percent so. An acceleration above that guidance so I assume that makes, the investors happy and interesting after the slight deceleration and Q3 that we saw tree accelerating Q4. There would have been an argument that because Q4 is normally a heavy e-commerce quarter it’s harder to hit these really big growth numbers so that was impressive, the number by the way was a hundred twenty five point six billion in sales which versus 87 billion last year but what’s cool about that that is I believe that’s Amazon’s first hundred billion dollar quarter so that’s that’s pretty exciting. Scot: [8:50] Yeah for the longest time, we you and I would co-present this yeah Walmart was a quote unquote 400 billion dollar company and it really hasn’t I don’t know if it’s changed that much is it still kind of that 400 billion right it hasn’t cracked. So a hundred billion quarter is kind of like how big you have to be to get to Walmart now you and I would make the argument that with third-party gmv they passed a hundred billion a long time ago from a GMB perspective so it’s this is like just pure Revenue which is, pretty amazing so by gmv I have to do the numbers they’re pretty pretty honking big. Jason: [9:25] Yeah I’m going to I’m looking forward to that and now I says it’s also interesting to me because of these rq-4 numbers you can now get like the snapshot for the whole year and so from from Amazon’s perspective for the year net sales grew 38% um so you know again we care more about gmv but but net sales were 386 billion for the year vs. 280 billion last year so that’s thirty-eight percent growth or 37 percent growth under constant currency so not not a bad year. Scot: [10:02] Yeah and then that’s the top line so that’s what I would call a beat and then on the top line and then operating profit was expected to be 4.4 billion by Wall Street and came in at 6.8 billion so that’s you know. A paltry 2.2 billion more than Wall Street, I was expecting but remember Jason Amazon is not a profitable company so so in Wall Street parlance that was a top and bottom line Beat which is always good free cash flow increased to 30 1 billion for the trailing 12 months compared to 25 for the previous period so that’s 20 percent increase in free cash flow this is all after you know they spent I didn’t see them call this out but they had forecasted that they would spend like four billion on covid, stuff you know various like testing and then also social distancing and partitions and I’m sure mask and all this kind of stuff so. If they had done this without covid there would be another four billion dollars down here on the bottom line I I imagine which would have just been. Jason: [11:09] Yeah although they also got a lot of extra demand from covid so it may be may be harder to. Scot: [11:13] It was a fair trade yes fair trade. And then if we look at that for the year net income increased to 21 billion compared to 11 from last year so in 83 percent, your increase of net income and you know when just kind of your basic math is if you know revenues increasing 30 or 40 percent or whatever it is and and your net income is increasing faster you’re getting more profitable so that’s pretty impressive to see an acceleration in your business and you’re increasing the. Profitability of the business so lots of lots of, the thesis for this for literally 27 years is at some point those things can get so big they just can’t spend enough money and the scale will kick in, with things like hundreds of fulfillment centers and all this stuff and that’s turns out a hundred billion dollars is a quarter is really a big scale that you get a lot of efficiencies in a business like this. Jason: [12:09] Yeah. Scot: [12:12] And then looking at the consolidated you know what this means is looking at the segments inside so North America grew 40 percent and all this is without the impact of constant currency so it’s X FX as they say and then International grew 50% and I have to go we have to the intern interns are off tonight but I am pretty sure we haven’t seen International growth since like maybe 2017 when they started to really juice India, so International usually is lagging the North America by. Five percentage are some points or so so this is really interesting and will dig into a little bit more I need to kind of parse through the the K in the queue when they come out they do have a little bit more country data inside of those than they have at this point but I’ll save that for a future show I’m intellectually curious like what’s going on in international cause that you know was it, the covid bump was delayed internationally compared to the US or you know I don’t know why I’m really curious to dig into that international number. [13:23] And then sets the quarterly View and then we look at the annual view Consolidated as you mentioned your your Amazon grew 38% North America was at 38% and that surge at the end made International 40% just a hair more than then North America. Jason: [13:45] Yeah and it’s interesting because you know North America is quite a bit larger than International still so you you’d almost expect International to be growing. Faster so it’s going to be interesting to see if they provide any more detail like did covid have a bigger impact. On Cue for internationally for some reason or or is it just you know that they open up more markets I don’t know. But one of the interesting things is to kind of look how the revenue breaks down so if if you look at that net sales growth by segment forty-six percent growth in online retail so that’s. For them that’s one piece sales they do break down physical stores separately which only I’m interested in and continuing a trend physical stores is the only thing in history to ever go down for Amazon, and it went down 8% which is pretty material right it’s mostly Whole Foods and 8% is a pretty big drop especially in grocery which. You like on average went up 20% thanks to covid but what I think is happening here is for any other grocer. Their sales went way up but it disproportionately skewed to e-commerce and Amazon when you order something online and it’s delivered from a whole food sale it. [15:12] Shifts from being a store a physical store sale to a digital sale so I think. Um that that that is kind of gumming up the works when you look at this negative eight number. Third party sales you know we’re growing even faster which has been the trend lately so they’re growing at 57% subscriptions which is like Amazon Prime, grew at 35 percent AWS is maybe the first business at Amazon that seems like it might. Start to have some impact of large numbers because while it’s still growing very healthily it’s its rate of growth is slowing so it was at 28 percent and then to me, the most surprising number and we’ll unpack this a little bit later but the. The the biggest surprise in all this was what Amazon calls other which which we believe is mostly advertising revenue and it was the biggest growth of all it was 66 percent so that’s pretty remarkable and, we’ll talk about that a little bit more later when you look at that mix it’s about 61 percent to North America 27% International and 12% AWS is kind of hot, the revenue breaks down but don’t spend too much time thinking about that because if you if you refactor did it Jim via it would look a little different. Scot: [16:38] Yeah and then speaking my favorite topic third-party marketplaces that that growth of 57% made the unit mix of marketplace has hit a new high Watermark of 55% that’s the first time we’ve seen it hit 55% it does typically tick up into the you know high level in the fourth quarter because Amazon leans on its Army of entrepreneurs to help satisfy all that holiday demand so that’s as a third-party Marketplace guy. I can remember when we were at like 33 percent and it’s pretty amazing to see it gets 55 I always felt like Amazon would balance it more at 50 so it’s interesting to see it kind of cross over there I wonder you know. My bet is they have some data that makes them more comfortable increasing their sales from a customer experience standpoint like maybe the early days, third-party sellers weren’t quite there as you know obviously have FBA but even then like maybe self-fulfilled Prime and that kind of stuff is is helping nudge that number because Amazon feels good about the customer experience. Jason: [17:45] Yeah I think you know one of the the trends themes in Jeff’s letter was this thing that like when you invent something crazy new it seems. Completely implausible at first and then if it’s a wild success it one day it seems routine and that’s the biggest compliment you can never get and I feel like third-party Marketplace is the perfect example of that that it was like hugely controversial and somewhat unlikely when it was launched and now it’s just like oh ho hum it’s 55 percent of our sales. Scot: [18:16] Yeah absolutely so that’s kind of some of the highlights of the quarter will kind of from the marketplace retail side and then we’ll cover some of the other categories but it’s also interesting to look at the guidance so this is where Amazon tells Wall Street here’s kind of what we’re expecting for q1 of 2021 so I was this is always interesting because. Yet factors in it at this point they’ve obviously seen most of January’s results internally so they have a third of the quarter kind of like under their belt and they can make some predictions there so they said net sales are expected to be between a hundred and 106 billion which is booked in growth of 33 to 40 percent so 36 at the midpoint so definitely a step down from that kind of 44 percent that they saw but they always they always kind of do this route this would be called quote conservative guidance. Jason: [19:06] Or sandbagging. Scot: [19:07] May possibly one of the things that is challenging I can speak from experience has you know everyone’s feels like, we’re going to get a break in this whole covid thing but no one knows when it’s going to come you know you read some things that say maybe this summer and then you see other things this a we’re not going to return to normal ever so that makes it very hard to forecast. [19:31] What to do a whole show on where you and I follow that so before this announcement Wall Street was thinking q1 would be more like ninety to a hundred billion so they kind of have this is called raised beat so they beat the current quarter and then they raise the future quarter so this nudges the future quarter which is q1 2021, to well beyond that, previous Wall Street range so it’s going to be interesting there’s a lot of focus on the stock market with all the craziness going on with read it. People in GameStop and all so you know the aside from that, Amazon you’ve got you know this really smashing beat and raise kind of thing going on but then Jeff kind of quote unquote leaving so it’ll be interesting to see what the stock does I looked after market in there wasn’t really it was kind of flat which, it’s interesting because I would have expected they beat expectations so I would have expected kind of like, 5% bump but so I think the headwind of of Jeff moving is put a wet blanket on that looking at the forecast for the bottom line operating income is expected to be between three and six point five billion huge range there again kind of probably that covid uncertainty. Um and then Wall Street had that at 5.4 so that one I would say is in line if does feel this one feels pretty thin baggy so I. [20:54] Pretty easily beat that one and then they said approximately they’re forecasting about 2 billion of cost related to covid which is which is down and I think. The part of that is some of these things you know are have to be replenished like testing where you’re constantly doing it but other things like any. Changes they’ve made to the workstations at fulfillment centers or the driver schedules or any of those things are largely in the rearview and already Investments they have made. [21:22] One other Tibbett I thought interesting is because sometimes we struggle you know at my various companies to hire like five or ten people Amazon hired a hundred and seventy-five people in the quarter a hundred seventy five thousand people in the quarter. So you know they have well over a million people right now and then that hundred and seventy-five thousand people that hired in Q4 is three times what they hired in the same period of 2019 so. Just like just like imagine the infrastructure you’d have to have to hire a hundred and seventy-five thousand I can’t even. Look how many recruiters do you have to have and you know HR sign up people. They just must have these wildly it must be the recruiters must just be robots or something because I just don’t know how you scale something like that that’s just mind-boggling to me. They do not break out how many of those are kind of more kind of corporate type folks versus Warehouse folks I do imagine a big chunk is warehouse but you know they are hiring corporate, people at just a crazy clip as well so there’s there’s there’s nothing a mix of that in there also. How about I know one of your favorite categories to look at is the ads / other business would you see there. Jason: [22:38] Yeah so we talked about that it was up unexpectedly 66 I mean we all expected to grow but 66% certainly exceeded my expectations that means if you add up, the ads tend to be sort of seasonal people spend more money on advertising and Q4 than other other quarters but if you add up the last four quarters of Amazon’s other it was 21 and a half billion dollars and I can tell you that that is, wildly above anyone’s aggressive estimates for Amazon’s advertising business in 2020 so it’s, it’s really impressive you know we’ve already talked about the fact that they were the, the third largest digital advertising Network behind Facebook and Google they are. [23:30] Facebook also had a pretty good quarter but Amazon is doing remarkable to put it in perspective that’s about seven times like Twitter’s advertising Revenue. And one of the things that’s interesting to me here is, that there are actually some good Tailwinds for this business to grow even more for Amazon in the advertising industry one of the biggest news things and it’s getting a lot of ink right now is. Apple is changing the way that that third parties can track mobile app a mobile user IDs in the apps, they have to be more overt about it and a lot of a lot of apps are choosing not to do that a lot of the browsers are turning off this tracking mechanism that’s called third-party cookies, in the cumulative effect of those two changes third party cookies and app mobile app IDs, are that a lot of the advertising vehicles that that brands use to Target their ads and particularly those like retargeting ads are going away. So if you were Procter & Gamble and you are used to being it being able to buy a highly targeted audience. You have less tools to do that and one of the best workarounds is to have someone else run the ad for you. Does have a bunch of first-party customer data and knows a lot of consumers and it turns out. Scot: [24:56] Who would who would that be. Jason: [24:57] That would be Amazon and so. So increasingly that and I’ll bet you a big chunk of that 21 billion is not ads that show up on Amazon I’ll bet you a bunch of that is, ads the Amazon places on places I Google using its first party data to Target on behalf of people that have bought ads from them. And you know that that trend is not lost on other retailers one of the most common things we see in the world right now is retailers are launching their own media networks and so I mean Ulta, has launched one CBS has launched one and the probably the biggest one besides Amazon is Walmart they rebranded there’s this week they it’s now called Walmart. [25:43] They had already kind of brought it in house and put a lot of effort behind it. The big thing they added this week is they did a partnership with a company called trading desk that. Buys a lot of off-site media so now Walmart is trying to leverage that same Trend that I just mentioned with Amazon where. You can buy you can pay amp Walmart to use their first party data which they have even more customers than Amazon. And they’ll run those ads for you and in Walmart’s case in addition to off-site ads and ads on Walmart.com there now also selling through the same network ads, on all the TVs in the Walmart store and all the self-checkout terminals so. So the retail media Space is really heating up and Amazon is certainly. The leader and poised to continue to be so. Scot: [26:37] Sue AWS did you want to go there. Jason: [26:42] Yeah oh and one other side note you know if you remember way back to episode 251 when we did our predictions one of my predictions was that that ad space would totally heat up so I’m feeling good about that prediction so in the first two weeks. Scot: [26:56] Still too early to call. Jason: [26:57] Yeah absolutely. Scot: [26:58] It could totally slow down for the next 11 months. Jason: [27:01] Exactly yeah it could turn out digital ads are a fad. AWS Wall Street was expecting just under 13 billion twelve point eight billion and it came in I think right right at twelve point eight billion we talked about that that 28 percent top-line growth the. Annualize that means AWS is growing at about thirty percent which you know again it’s a very profitable business and that’s growing really quickly I do believe that there big competitors Google Cloud platform and Microsoft are probably um at or better than that growth rate although there they’re both considerably smaller than AWS so so maybe they’re starting to make up a little bit of ground. Scot: [27:52] Cool and then so before we we wanted to spend a little bit of time on some other news that came out but before we do, I felt like so this is gonna be interesting so we have this first data point kind of in the mid-40s you know historically you have this, chart you have been publishing the kind of shows Amazon’s actually the middle of the pack right so we’re seeing like. Historically Shopify has printed higher and even like BJ’s and Costco and so a lot of the omni-channel guys are seeing just this disorder to magnitude higher digital growth and Amazon because a lot of it is, movement of analog to digital we’re what was your kind of gut reaction to the quarter that Amazon put up here. Jason: [28:38] Yeah so it’s interesting like they’ve made impressive performance start to feel somewhat boring to me so they’re a little north of where I expected I was I guess I was expecting high 30s and so like for you know 44 seems pretty impressive but, I don’t know in some ways I always expect there to be some some extra Easter eggs or some fun surprises and in, Amazon earnings and they just they just made it look too easy. Scot: [29:11] Let’s I’ll put elastics on there this International my spidey sense is tingling International I want to figure out what’s going on in there something’s up. Jason: [29:18] One one thing I will say that just interesting to me Amazon has always been this company that defied the law of large numbers that despite the fact that they’re by far the largest e-commerce player. They generally content we’re continuing to grow faster than most everyone else. And that was certainly true even in q1 of this year like you know e-commerce group 15% and they grew at like twenty seven percent but covid seems to have. Helped everyone else’s e-commerce you know. Mildly catch up with Amazon right so Amazon still has had impressive growth but they’ve kind of Fallen to the industry average and a lot of these other big players are growing way faster than the industry average so you know Walmart which is the second biggest e-commerce site in the US, drew it like a hundred percent and targeted at 170 to 200 percent and you mentioned like BJ’s at three hundred percent. It’s going to be interesting to me is that a. A spike because of covid and you know the fact that these guys are growing from much smaller numbers than Amazon and. You know as the health concerns around covid abates do we, do we see Amazon kind of move back to the front of the pack in terms of growth rates or is this the new normal that that you know they’re going to be the biggest but their Challengers are going to be growing a little faster than them it’s going to be interesting to watch. Scot: [30:47] Yeah I agree there’s a case to be made that maybe their gains are going to be stickier because the omni-channel guys will just shift back to the store at some point or will that maybe they’ll stick to like you know there’s a lot of talk about Walmart’s Grocery and all that all that just so. Jason: [31:02] One thing that I will say is all these other retailers that are now selling a bunch of stuff e-commerce are having the same profitability problems that earlier Amazon had right so one thing that these other retailers are not getting is the, the unit economics of scale that Amazon has. Scot: [31:18] Yes they’re they’re kind of on the other side of the mountain and kind of on the down slope of profitability in everyone else is like holy cow this is hard and there’s a there’s a big mountain in front of us to make this work. Jason: [31:30] Exactly any other closing thoughts on Amazon anything that jumped surprised you or that you were particular excited to read. Scot: [31:38] Not I know we’ve had some news out of one of the companies that was on the show so I want to hear your take on that. Jason: [31:46] So two other kind of news tidbits I just wanted to mention first of all just because we were just talking about me dominating the predictions and retailers are struggling for e-commerce profitability one interesting bit of news last week was that Walmart announced that they were going all in on these what are called micro fulfillment centers or what Walmart calls lfccs local fulfillment centers so this is kind of putting. Automated picking in a store, to make that that online grocery pickup or that curbside pickup more cost-effective for the retailer and Grocers have all been piloting these things but Walmart’s announced that they now have plans to deploy dozens of them this year and they actually said they’re partnering with three different technology providers so, alert Innovations is who’s been doing Walmart Micro fulfillment up to now and then you know two other good industry competitors de Mantic and fabric, are both apparently getting some of the Walmart business as well so that, that is like one of the things you would do to improve the unit economics of digital Grocery and so it’s interesting to see Walmart being a leader there and it’s especially interesting because that was yet another of my annual prediction so I’m feeling good about two of my, my prediction so far. Scot: [33:12] Pin here CEST with the predictions this year how about is fabric is that fossils new company so the same fabric rather two Fabrics. Jason: [33:20] No so I think you’re thinking of fabric as an Israeli Fulfillment company in fassl’s is an e-commerce platform. Scot: [33:34] There are both called fabric rent. Jason: [33:37] And then the other bit of news that you you referenced is previous guest on the show drizzly just got acquired by Uber so that was a 1.1 billion dollar acquisition for four folks that haven’t heard every episode of the show drizzly is the market leader in alcohol home delivery Last Mile for alcohol. And that has been a. A little micro segment that has totally exploded thanks to covid before covid the overwhelming majority of all alcohol was sold at. Bars now of course we’re all buying booze to drink it home and a lot of us want that delivered so so drizzly has been kind of a Marketplace that delivered alcohol orders on behalf of clients. And now they’re getting rolled up to be part of buber, you’ll remember Uber bought Postmates for like 2.6 billion last year so they seem to be taking some of the. [34:38] That good Uber equity and trying to convert it into other interesting businesses. And the alcohol one is interesting to me because it’s. It grew at unlike 80 percent this year home delivery of alcohol grew like 80% it’s Fork it was literally only one percent of alcohol sales before covid it’s forecasted to be like eight percent of alcohol sales on there’s a couple of years so it. It seems like it’s on a great trajectory in and would be a good investment, the challenges that there’s a bunch of Regulation around alcohol distribution and a lot of the regulation got kind of loosened during covid and it’s an open question whether. It’s going to take him back up at some point or whether it won’t and there’s also some speculation that some of these small start-up companies weren’t perfectly compliant with all the alcohol distribution laws but as they get bigger. The the risk and cost of not being compliant is going to get higher so so I would say there’s some, there’s some Regulatory and compliance risk about these businesses scaling so it’s going to be super interesting to watch. Scot: [35:49] So will there be a day when you get an Uber and they offer you beer and wine is that what’s going to happen here. Jason: [35:55] I think this is more of the ubereats division than the Uber but who knows. Scot: [36:01] Uber select Uber mobile bar. Jason: [36:07] Exactly when they merge with Airbnb it’ll they’ll be restocking all those mini bars that they put in people’s houses. Scot: [36:14] Perfect I like where you’re going with this vertical integration around alcohol. Jason: [36:20] Yeah, well look I know we wanted to get this show out quick because people are eager to hear our thoughts about that big Amazon earnings and shout out to Jeff that was that 27 years was a good run and we’re excited to see now that you’re up to speed what you can really accomplish. Scot: [36:40] Yeah thanks everyone and if you enjoyed. This episode or any episode of our 253 we would love a five star review you do have to kind of go into your favorite podcast app if you’re using iTunes that’s probably the most helpful for us but if you’re on Spotify or any of those other awesome recording our podcast listening Technologies we really appreciate a review you could be one of our first reviews of 2021 how about that. Jason: [37:09] That is super exciting and until next time happy commercing!

Welcome to a Modern Moron Holiday Treat Classic Extravaganzapalooza.  In this episode and in this Holiday season of giving, the Senator returns!  And in that spirit of giving he denies any wrong doing in our breakup and even demands an apology.  Remind you of anyone? We really do try to make this episode about Christmas songs and the iconic vocalists who we immediately recognize.  But as I said, the Senator returns and we spend the majority of the episode bickering over the breakup that he didn’t even know existed because he was too busy We also go down a rabbit hole about hunting… specifically the use of alcohol while hunting.  Neither of us hunt so naturally we... or I know all about it.  I bring it up now because I have something to say about it at the end of the show as I did a little research about drinking and shooting.  Also, we only get to a couple of Christmas songs at the end so this is part one of the Modern Moron Holiday Treat Classic Extravaganzapalooza!  And thank you for listening. CLOSE Isn’t it great to have him back?  So much more material, it just grows and grows… like a blossoming algae or a fungus.   With all of his ranting about Burl Ives NOT being a folk artist, I have included the wikipedia link to his profile which starts:  Ives began as an itinerant (traveling) singer and banjoist, and launched his own radio show, The Wayfaring Stranger, which popularized traditional folk songs. In 1942, he appeared in Irving Berlin's This Is the Army, and then became a major star of CBS radio.  A popular film actor through the late 1940s and '50s, Ives's best-known film roles included parts in So Dear to My Heart (1948) and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (1958), as well as Rufus Hannassey in The Big Country (1958), for which he won an Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor. I also need to take a moment here… to give a special Christmas wish to the family of the Senator and all you go through… I’m going to amazon right now and I’m ordering several pairs of hip and chest waders… you know, the kind fisherman use so they can wade out into water without getting their clothes wet?  I’m getting some for you for all the bullshit you have to wade through in your home.  I imagine you already have some masks to wear with the pandemic, so I’ll just recommend you wear them in your own household so you filter out the bullshit generated by the fantasy world your husband and father lives in.  I’m looking some up right now… and I’m going to make sure they are bullshit retardant.  Uh oh…. Doesn’t look like they have one’s that are bullshit retardant.  Oh no, the  senator’s bullshit will melt those things off in a new york minute.  I’ll keep looking.   I also feel the need to address an issue I brought up in regards to alcohol and duck hunting.  As it turns out that can be a touchy subject so as an astute Moron I did a minimal amount of research on this, meaning I Google’d or in this case I used duck duck go… get it?  See what I did there?  Here are some responses I ran across on a hunting chat site with regard to consuming alcohol while hunting: https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=902088  If you drink and hunt(shoot) you are an IDIOT, an IMBECILE, a MORON!!!  Sounds like someone should be advertising on duck hunting sites!  https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110112091255AAnrxaG “I limit myself to 14 beers while hunting with a bow, 12 with a gun, and 24 while fishing....unless it is catfishing, then the sky's the limit!” “No drinking while hunting? What's become of this country? Next you're going to tell me you can't drink while fishing or drag racing.” While I’m fairly sure these two comments were meant to be humorous, and I’m all for the dark humor folks, but it also shows… perhaps…. That in some circles it’s not taken as seriously as in other circles.   https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/explorer_reports/ny-legislature-lowers-limit-for-hunting-while-intoxicated  ( March 27, 2019) “New York lawmakers have agreed to lower the threshold for hunting drunk, a misdemeanor, to the same blood alcohol limit for driving or boating while intoxicated.” From: https://unitedsportsmen.com/waiver/  “No alcohol permitted anywhere except on the USI Clubhouse patio, and only after shooters have completed their day’s shooting. Shooters having consumed alcohol will not be permitted to shoot again that day, no exceptions.” Burl Ives - Wikipedia  

Without question, the last several months have accelerated ecommerce adoption and drastically changed consumer behavior. The entire sales lifecycle from finding a prospect to closing the deal has been turned upside down. Now two key obstacles lie in the path of ecommerce leaders… The first is the more obvious, more discussed problem: How do you operationally and technically need to change to meet your customers' evolving needs?  The second key obstacle is not as often addressed, but is equally as important: How do you then communicate to your customers that even in these changing times, you are equipped and ready to meet their new needs?  The binding and laminating business doesn’t sound like it would be ripe with insights into answers to both of these questions, but Jeff McRitchie, the VP of eCommerce at Spiral, is here to prove that assumption wrong.  Jeff has nearly two decades of experience in the ecommerce and digital space. Just last year, his own company, MyBinding.com, was acquired by Spiral, where he now helps lead ecommerce operations. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Jeff explains what it has been like merging his ecommerce business with a more traditional binding company. He shares some of the challenges he faced along the way, and what methods and strategies he’s leaned into to find success. Jeff also discusses tips for building out a winning SEO and content strategy, and how ecommerce is playing a larger role across the entire business, including in customer acquisition and content marketing.  Main Takeaways:   The Merge: When a primarily ecommerce company merges with a larger more traditional business, there are a lot of balls in the air to create a cohesive and efficient system. Most of the adjustments have to be made on the side of the acquiring company, which needs to learn how to compete in a digital marketplace. That means that education has to be a priority both internally and externally.    Use Their Words: Every industry has jargon and industry-speak. It’s easy to fall into the trap of using that language throughout your platforms and channels. Instead, you have to meet customers where they are with their own language, and use the words and phrases they use. This will ensure that your customers feel like you are speaking directly to them and it also helps create more longtail SEO opportunities. Content For Now that Pays Off Later: Some of the most-viewed content you create might be consumed after a customer makes a purchase. On the surface, that might make it seem like content-creation is not a good customer acquisition strategy. On the contrary, it’s actually a critical long-term strategy in the sense that good, useful content is critical for brand awareness and building trust, which customers will remember when they need to buy in the future. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome to another episode of Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles. Today on the show, we have Jeff McRitchie, the VP of Ecommerce at Spiral Binding, My Binding and Binding 101. Jeff welcome. Jeff: Thank you. Stephanie: Thanks for coming on the show. I was excited when I was looking through Spiral's background. It looked like you guys started in 1932. Is that right? Jeff: Yeah. I mean, we've been around for a long time. Stephanie: Yeah. I think that'll make for a really fun conversation because I'm sure that the company and you have seen a lot of transformation over the years, so that'll be fun to dive into later. Jeff: For sure. Stephanie: Tell me a bit about Spiral. What is it? How do I think about what you guys do? Jeff: So Spiral is really a company and we've built ourselves around helping people to bind presentations and proposals. We do a little bit of laminating. We do a little bit of other things, but really we focus a lot on binding. We sell the equipment and the supplies for people to be able to bind presentations, proposals, books and training materials. Those are probably the primary things that come out of it. Jeff: We're a niche player in the office products market is one way to think about it. We're an interesting a hybrid of a company because we sell a little bit in B2B, a lot in B2B, a lot in B2C or B2B to C sort of space. Then we also have some really interesting national account sort of business as well. Kind of a little bit of an evolving company, we're a manufacturer and a distributor at the same time. We have lots of different faces which presents some really cool challenges from the standpoint of being in a digital transformation or Ecommerce role. Stephanie: Okay cool. So how long have you been at the company for? Jeff: My story is interesting, actually I'm co founder of a company called My Binding about 17 years ago. Last year we sold to Spiral. I've been with Spiral for just over a year now in this sort of digital transformation role but with My Binding, which was more of a pure play Ecommerce space. We grew and we were the largest sort of binding Ecommerce player in the market. Then all of a sudden we joined forces essentially with Spiral, which was the largest sort of B2B player in the market. Now we're one force together going after the binding and laminating market. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. What was that process like where you had your own company, you guys were selling online and then joining a company that maybe wasn't doing as much of that. What was that process like when it came to incorporating your company into an existing older company? Jeff: There's definitely some upsides. Suddenly you have increased purchasing power, you have more access to talent and capital. Those were amazing things, but the integration side of things is tough. Jeff: I mean, you're trying to merge systems and figure out how everything works together and learn the language of a new company. Some of that stuff is not as easy as it should be, as well as trying to figure out where exactly are they on the landscape of digital transformation and how do you navigate that when... We were pretty much an Ecommerce or digital first organization. That wasn't really their background. Now we're figuring out how do we be both? That's a pretty big challenge actually. Stephanie: Yeah. That sounds really difficult. What does the customer journey look like for Spiral or what did it look like compared to My Binding? Jeff: I guess the best way to think about it would be that in a B2B, B2C sort of Ecommerce experience, we were really building our business around a large number of transactions with a large number of customers, essentially small transactions to a large number of customers. On the more traditional B2B model, the traditional side of the Spiral business would have been around a small number of transactions to really big customers. Which is pretty typical when you look at this idea of traditional B2B and more like an Ecommerce B2B sort of experience. At least a B2B, to C sort of experience. Jeff: That was the really interesting thing is that we were dealing with customers from all over the country that in almost every industry that you can imagine, but most of them were rather small and we are filling specific needs for those customers. That was fine. On the spiral side you were looking and saying, hey, they had deep relationships. Relationships that went back decades, in many cases, with organizations where they were the supplier of choice. They had complex contracts and all those kinds of things. That was never really part of the Ecommerce world. Trying to figure out how do you merge those two together to get the best of both. It's not easy, but it's really fun actually. Stephanie: Yeah. I can imagine it takes a lot of training for their existing customers who are used to those contracts and used to things being done a certain way. How are you maybe going about training the customers who are used to doing things the old way to be like, Hey, we actually can do this online usually. Jeff: Slowly. Stephanie: Any lessons there that someone can take away if they're going through the same thing right now within their org? Jeff: You don't have to do it all at once. Our approach is really to allow customers to interact with us the way they want to interact with us by giving them better options. Really the priorities for this past year have been to try to integrate systems and then upgrade our footprint so that we can allow the company to put its best foot forward. Really starting with the E-comm side and getting everybody on the same platform and then tied into the same systems. Jeff: Now we're actually probably just a couple of months away from launching our brand new B2B E-com experience for the traditional spiral customers. Essentially we have been allowing them to continue to exist and deal with the company in the way that they used to while improving the experience and then bringing the platform up for the entire organization. One of the things about especially B2B commerce is that it gets really complicated as you tie in lots and lots of systems and a lot of interesting rules. Jeff: Customers want to deal with you in the way that they want to deal with you. What we've found is that we have to build specific experiences for our different customer types. That's the approach that we've been taking. I think that's a good approach from the standpoint of, you're not trying to force everybody into the same sort of experience because not everybody wants to deal with it in the same way. As a large organization that sort of deals with these sort of different challenges, we have to answer questions, like, do you display pricing on the front end of your website or is it a login only experience? Jeff: What pricing do you show people or what price pricing do people get and how do you control that and how do you manage that and how do you make sure that that experience is personalized for individuals? Then there's the age old question, which is really challenging in an organization that has multi channels and that is, how do you deal with the channel conflict? Whose customer is that? I guess it depends on who you would ask because everybody thinks that the customer is theirs. Yet ultimately the customer needs to deal with the organization in a way that the customer feels the most comfortable, not in the way that the organization feels most comfortable. Stephanie: Yeah. That makes sense. What kind of legacy or what things did the legacy customers get hung up on the most when you guys are making this transition and trying to show them that a new platform's coming? Is there similar themes of things that they're like, oh, I don't feel comfortable with that, or, I don't want to move because of this? Jeff: I think when it comes to customers, most customers want technology. I mean, they become comfortable. I think that they don't want to lose functionality. That's been probably one of the hardest things is that even if that functionality wasn't the best, they become comfortable with it and they don't really want to lose that. Yes they do want a best in class experience. One of the hard things that we all have to deal with in Ecommerce right now is that the bar has been raised. Jeff: There are people who want more and more features in terms of their online shopping experience. What you find is that you need to be able to roll these things out, but you need to make sure that it doesn't make things harder on those customers, especially long time corporate customers. They are really dependent on these things working smoothly and easily. That's actually one of the hardest challenges in this process has been, okay, well, we've done a lot of cool things for customers over the years. One off, you build a feature on the website just for that one customer. Jeff: Well, trying to then redo that and not lose a substantial amount of functionality for specific customers, especially large customers that you have these really deep relationships with, that's pretty tough. Stephanie: I was actually going to ask that next, when you mentioned that you were personalizing the experience for certain customers to make them feel more comfortable or hearing what they want and trying to incorporate that into the platform, how do you go about picking out what things you should maybe personalize or give to the customer without going down a worm hole of having a personal experience for every customer? Jeff: Ultimately, we're taking an approach of first saying, what's the best in class experience that we could build. What are the things that are going to be the best for all of the customers and then looking and saying, "Hey, can we in our roadmap put in the flexibility to accommodate for these many things that customers have asked for?" Jeff: How could we build this in such a way that we can add that on or this on? I'm not sure that we always nail it just from the standpoint of... It's pretty tough to keep everybody happy. But we're taking the approach of, hey, we can make it substantially better for everybody. It may not be perfect, but it should be a dramatic enough improvement that they'll recognize that we have their best interest in mind. Stephanie: It seems like some of those requests might also fit other customers as well or it might be something where they're like, oh, I actually wanted that and never thought to ask. It could be helpful when it comes to product development on your side, like technology development. Jeff: Yeah, totally. We had a really good team that we used to build out stuff and we're able to iterate fairly quickly. That's the good news because sometimes we miss something and so... But as long as you can respond fairly quickly to a customer's need, it gives you an opportunity to serve them better and to communicate. But the other really important part of this is really getting the account managers and your sales people involved in this process so you get some really good feedback because one of the challenges that we face at least is that sometimes as the E-com department and on the technology side, you don't always get raw feedback. Jeff: Maybe the stuff you're hearing is from the people who are yelling the loudest, not necessarily from the people who are trying to help you. You're not necessarily hearing about the features that are going to make the biggest difference for most number of users. Stephanie: That makes sense. With this whole re-platforming and new tech stack that you're going to be launching what pieces of tech are you most excited about showing to the customer or bringing online that maybe wasn't there before? Jeff: For us it's really about an enhanced user experience. We kind of been a little bit on the old school side on the traditional B2B piece of it. This gives us the ability to provide a really much better experience end to end in terms of transacting with us. Some of the things that we're aiming for, that are harder than I was thinking they would be, would be real time freight quoting. When you're a B2B company and you've got a distribution network across the country, and you're trying to figure out how much that pallet is going to cost to go to this customer. You think, hey that should be super easy. That's like in the Ecommerce world, until you start to realize, well, it's really important that you get that right. You have to first know where all that's going to ship from. Jeff: One of the biggest things is a really deep integration with our ERP so we can understand where the inventory resides and then how much it weighs and the sizes and all those kinds of things so that we can do that on the fly. Because right now we do an add back type thing. We'll tell you what the freight is later. Customers don't like that. Especially not in the Ecommerce world. Getting that upfront, same with sales tax calculation. Right now, a lot of that's done on the backend and people want to know upfront. That means building a system that has management for resale certificates and all of those pieces. Jeff: I need to understand where are you exempted, where you not exempted and what are you exempt from and all of those kinds of things so that I can quote you and tell you what the sales tax is going to be upfront before you place your order. That's another piece of it that we're excited about. Requisition list is another one where people will have their own custom price list in the system where they can quickly order. We're building a system where they can upload an Excel file with all of their items that they want so they can do quick ordering and quick reordering. Jeff: I guess those would be a few of the systems. Like a quote management system to allow people to request pricing on items and then for us to respond to them live and track that inside of our system is another one that we're building. Those are all areas where we're saying, hey, this could really enhance the user's journey and make it a lot easier for them to do business with us. Stephanie: That's great. Yeah that sounds like some great changes. Have you had any customers trying out the platform as beta testers and have you seen any difference when it comes to average order value or anything? Jeff: We're not quite there yet. We finished design and we're in the midst of development at the moment. I would say that that's going to be one of those steps prior to launch. Will be first to have sort of sales associates and account managers jump into the platform and test it for themselves and then to really get especially key customers in the system testing, and then also giving us feedback. What do they love? What did they not like and how can we make it better for them? That's on the roadmap before launch to be able to say, "Hey is this better for you?" It's funny because on a traditional B2C Ecommerce launch, you'd be focusing so much on the front end. Jeff: Like, the My Account pages are taking just as much time for this site because that's where our customers are living. They want to use the search, but they really want to use the my account pages. They know what they want, and they need to be able to quickly reorder it. They need to be able to see their orders. They need to be able to have the ability to upload those requisition lists. It's a little bit of a twist but getting them, especially into those my account pages so that they can spend some serious time understanding their accounts and telling us what they like or what they don't like is going to be really important for the launch process. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really interesting about focusing on my account page and how much time they're spending there. I'm sure that things like product suggestions or also bots might be very important on that page to help showcase items that maybe they wouldn't otherwise buy when they're just quickly uploading something or just reordering. Are you guys experimenting with some of the suggestion features? Jeff: Most definitely. Yeah. That's part of the vision is to try to figure out and say, okay, we have these deep relationships with customers and they buy specific sets of products. How can we expand to purchasing a product set? How do we get them and introduce them to complimentary products and show them the right pricing and the right place so that they can say, "Hey, I should totally add that on." That's something that I should consider. It's an interesting challenge for us because we have different personas or groups of people that we're dealing with. Jeff: On one hand we're dealing with dealers and they're really reselling product. You're trying to show them maybe categories of product, where do they need to expand because they're buying for specific purposes. Then you have end users and those end users you might want to show them a different size or a different color. We're experimenting with what the best algorithm is that we can use to show them the right products and then also in the right places too. Stephanie: That's great. What tests are you most excited about that you're pitching to everyone right now and some people maybe aren't sure about? Jeff: I'm actually most excited right now about the lead gen side of our business. Stephanie: Tell me more about that. Jeff: When you start to think about what the power of Ecommerce is for a B2B organization. Ecommerce can really become the engine that powers the acquisition efforts of a company. Especially because we can get in front of hundreds of thousands of customers a month, whereas the traditional B2B sales force might only touch hundreds of customers per month. Maybe thousands, but definitely not hundreds of thousands. Jeff: The idea of... What does it take for us to build a really cool robust system to not only bring these leads in but then to try to figure out how do I score these leads and then not only take them and turn them into an immediate sale, but to determine which ones of these really can be turned into those more traditional B2B accounts that we have these deep relationships with that are going to buy from us for years to come, many tens of thousands of dollars, right? Jeff: The really exciting part to me is looking at it and saying, okay we are on the Ecommerce side, on the B2B2C Ecommerce piece of it. We almost have too many leads. We get so much traffic that comes in. So then how do you figure out, take all those leads and build a really robust system where you can make sure that they're getting exactly what they need, and you're closing as many sales as you can, but then how do you figure out a way to pass those accounts up, the right accounts to the right people so that you can build them into a much larger long term sustainable program. Jeff: For us, that means building a really cool inbound sales team that makes sure that we take care of those leads and that we foster them and do all the things that we need to do, but then building an outbound sales team as well that's going to go in and then say, "Hey, let's take these leads and take them to the next level." Then also figuring out a system for passing accounts up and down inside of the organization. You really want to be able to pass a lead up or a customer up that has substantial potential to be either a national account or what we'll call an enterprise level account. Jeff: But you also want the reciprocity of getting those accounts back or the smaller accounts back from the team. I will say that no one wants to give up that account. That's a big challenge inside of an organization when you're trying to say, "Hey, I'll give you some, you give me some." The way usually ends up being is someone... Everyone wants to receive, no one wants to give. But the system only really works if you can give the best to the... But then also that you can receive quality back. For instance, handing back to the E-com team, only the accounts that don't do any business, isn't really a win. Jeff: You really want your enterprise salespeople focused on enterprise level accounts. We're having to sort of wrestle through what does that look like in terms of structure. I don't know that we really have it all figured out yet, but it's a cool idea. Stephanie: I'm guessing there's a way to automate that and create rules. So it, like you said, can go up or down depending on certain criteria from when they're coming in. How are you all thinking about automating that process? So it's maybe less of a salespeople having to give and take and whatnot, and more like, Oh, this is automatically routed to you based on these metrics. Jeff: That's exactly what we're doing. We're exploring machine learning and big data to try to figure out a really good way of scoring customers because using that scoring, you can figure out how to pass customers up. Then a set of rules as well that says if these customers aren't of a certain size or if they have this kind of profile, they really belong in this group. But it's an interesting challenge from trying to figure out where do you get all this data from, and then how do you process it? We're exploring different options right now in terms of what that might look like and how we can best approach that without spending a ton of money before we bet that it actually works. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really cool. So outside of the prospect giving that information, what kind of things are you looking into right now to find the information to help with that scoring process? Jeff: It's actually challenging. You have certain pieces of information that are given to you which you have usually a name and an address. Their email address usually has a domain associated with it, especially in B2B. So you can pull a lot of information from that and you can start to sort your domain, your customers by domain. But really we're looking and saying, okay, well we do know the purchase history. The idea then is, okay, if you were to sort all your customers out, you can sort them on a scale of, let's say a one, two, three. You can say my best customers spend the most money with me. My worst customers spend the least amount of money with me, but that really misses part of the point. Jeff: You almost need to add a second access to this, which is really about customer potential. When it comes to customer potential, we're looking at the idea of what would it take for us to add some big data to this? To understand the size of their company and the profile of the company that they come from, or the industry that they come from as well, because the industry can be really important to us. But then the other side of it is also looking at what they purchased. Like for instance, people who purchase specific equipment or supplies, they're going to have a much higher lifetime value with us because those are proprietary or have maybe a really good pull through rate. Jeff: For instance, it may not be that it's a proprietary supply, but when you buy that machine, you have to go through a lot of supplies to make it worthwhile. You look at the data and you say, okay, that customer has a huge amount of potential. Not because of the amount that they bought from us, but because of what they bought or who they are, the company that they work for or their position. We're looking at the possibility of maybe even extending that into some of the databases out there that help you understand whether people are in market and what their roles are as well. Jeff: Because when you're dealing with B2B, you're not really selling all the time to the company, you're selling to a person inside of the company and that person has a role. You have to figure out, okay, well what role do they play in this picture? That helps us to sort them into personas. If you're dealing with a really small number of accounts, you can figure this out, but we have to automate it because it's not really feasible to do that in a one off basis. Stephanie: Yeah, definitely seems like you're going to need a whole entire data or business operations team who can build those rules out for you and have dashboards. That seems like a big project, but well worth it. Earlier, you mentioned that you guys have more traffic than you know what to do with and lots of leads coming in. Of course my first question is how are you getting this traffic? How are you acquiring potential customers? Jeff: Sure. I mean... We're in a niche industry, right? So that's part of it. We've been around for a really long time. Because of that, at least... Spiral has been around 80 years, My Binding for almost 20 on the web. As you start to look at that, we created a massive amount of content. Thousands of videos and pages. We really have in a lot of ways, the best websites in our sort of space and industry. Because of that, people are finding us to solve problems. What you find is that we built out these websites and either through SEO or through paid search we're driving a ton of traffic to the websites because they convert and that makes a ton of sense. Jeff: We're essentially... We have all of this content and it's really designed around this idea of how do we solve these problems for customers? We can drive more and more of that content. The website deals with a certain number of those sort of leads and converts on its own. The challenge for us tends to be, what do you do with the people that are maybe a little higher in the funnel? You're now talking about making sure they have a really awesome call center that is going to be able to answer those questions. Live chat is really big. We've extended our live chat hours all the way to midnight which is unheard of in the B2B space. Jeff: I want somebody there to talk to somebody if they have questions about products. Especially really big products. We're experimenting with the idea of doing triggers for live chat. We did that and that was really successful for us. We turned on the trigger and said, with the idea of if I walk into a store, somebody says, "Hey, how can I help you?" We did that on the Ecommerce site and we had massive numbers of people that were engaging with us. But the surprise to us was that many of those people were actually much higher in the funnel than we were used to dealing with. Jeff: In other words, they were now engaging with us and they weren't ready to buy. They were in the research space and they had lots of questions. Which is really cool but it just changes the model a little bit and you all of a sudden have to figure out how do I step up for that? How do I make sure that I have the right person to answer those questions? That's part of it. Driving the leads really comes to how do you acquire traffic on scale? Really good high quality traffic for the site. Then the question is, well, what can you do with it? Driving the traffic is really exciting from a standpoint of it doesn't have to be done in one way but you have to be maybe a little bit creative to do it because you really are trying to get in front of people that have problems rather than... Jeff: At least in our space, you don't come to a binding website unless you have a problem that the binding website can solve. It's not exactly an impulse purchase. You're going to show up and you're not going to just browse around. I wonder what kind of binding machines they carry. You probably are on a mission to solve some sort of problem. Right. Whether that's like your bosses told you that you need to buy a binding machine or you need to upgrade the way that your reports or presentations are going to look, or you have a deadline of Friday and you need to get these reports out for the annual meeting. Jeff: These are all sort of really common sort of scenarios and so then the question is, will this product work for my specific needs? That's a question that our customers are constantly asking. Building to that has been a really great sort of acquisition model for us to build around the idea that every customer that comes to us comes to us with a problem that we can solve for them, and then figuring out how do you work backwards to that? What problems could we solve? Then as you start to get creative with that and build massive amounts of content, that content lives out there forever. That's been really a big part of our success, is really the longevity but also the content generation sort of machine that we've built over the years. Stephanie: How has your content... What is the style now today? Is it only educational? Is it humorous and how has it evolved over time? Jeff: We've tried a lot of things over the years. We've tried to be funny. I think we think we're funny sometimes. We've tried a bunch of different things. We've tried to be really educational. It was really hard to figure out the ROI of that. What we've really... If you were to look at our content, we do a lot of content that is really close to the bottom of the funnel, but that would be really helpful. We go with that sort of helpful thing as well as deep. So the idea of building out a really robust and large set of content over the years about products. Jeff: We spend a lot of time making sure that we have all of the details about the product, even to the point where our competitors come to our sites to look up products because they don't have as good of information as we do. That's one piece of the content side of things for us. We have a lot of how to videos. We did a bunch of experimenting around the videos. We found that the videos that people really cared about would basically answer a couple of quick questions. But mostly it was, will this product work for me? How does this thing work? Jeff: We made a whole series of those videos, almost five thousand of them that are really around the idea of how does this product work and a quick demonstration essentially. Usually around a minute long that takes the product out of the box, show someone how to use it. Those really work well for us because they show a customer generally what are they looking for. A lot of customers they want to see what it looks like or they have a machine already and they want to say, "Is that's the thing that works with my machine.? They don't understand our language. Those videos have worked really well for us as well. Stephanie: That's great. Are there any surprising pieces of content that you didn't think would work that did, or surprising sources of customer acquisition that you wouldn't have looked into before? Jeff: We've had a few blog articles that have found traction in the world and the web that I wasn't really anticipating. We've written a lot of content over the years. Most of the blog articles get a little bit of traffic. They're like evergreen content, little bit of traffic over a long period of time. But occasionally we'll end up with one like... Something about how to laminate without a laminator. Stephanie: That's a good one. Jeff: Amazingly, there's a lot of people that look up that and I was shocked. It consistently drives more traffic than almost any other blog article for us. Which is odd. I'm not sure it drives a ton of business because they don't want to buy a laminator, but if you think about it, there's a whole segment of people that have maybe problems that we don't traditionally associate with our business. That would be one thing and then the other piece would be the language piece. Jeff: It's always surprising when I discover that the language that we use internally for our business doesn't match the language of the customer. An example would be we talk about binding covers all the time because we're in the world of binding. A lot of people they just talk about card stock. In the paper world, the card stock doesn't even exist. It's not a thing. People will talk about it. It's cover weight paper. Index weight paper. Card stock is like this sort of crafting term. Yet it's sort of taken on a vocabulary of its own in the world. Jeff: When people search for binding covers, often they'll use that word. That's always surprising to me as well. There's a whole list of those things where people basically they choose to use their own words to describe things. Now you're trying to figure out how do I technically be accurate about this product but really use their language? Because if you don't use their language, then you're not going to show up in search for this stuff and they're not going to feel comfortable with it. Stephanie: That's a really good reminder, especially with generational shifts that the new consumer might be using completely different language than what you're used to. How are you exploring what that language might be? I mean, especially a company that has been around since the thirties, how are they figuring out, oh, this is what they call it now, this is what the kids are saying these days? Jeff: Probably the easiest thing for us is to look through our search results and especially the no results found once because often it's those things. When people are typing in stuff in the search bar and nothing's popping up. You look at that and you're like oh... A smart merchandiser, someone who understands your products really well, they start to make those connections and they're like, oh, wait a second. That's what they mean. Obviously a lot of that like spelling mistakes and things like that. You can fix those in your search engine but when you start to look at it, you start to see sometimes patterns. That's one of the easiest ones. Jeff: The other two that are really helpful for us would be Google autosuggest. Just start typing things in Google and then figure out what Google thinks that you should add to the end of it. All of a sudden you realize, okay, maybe people are searching for maybe a slightly different side of things than we thought they were. Then the other one would be Amazon. Amazon, their product terms are awful. Yet they sell so much. Why? Because they tie into language. They have usually products that have all these different words in the titles that you would never imagine. Jeff: As you start to look at products that are really successful on the marketplaces, you can start to realize, okay, well maybe they're onto something there. They've managed to call out even the most important attributes of that product in a very search centric sort of model or they have really been able to hone in on maybe key words that we weren't thinking of when we've been building this out. Especially because often you start with whatever... A point of reference would be the manufacturer's title. It becomes quite difficult sometimes to sort of detach from that, but Amazon detaches automatically because they let people come up with their own titles for stuff. Jeff: Usually it's the sort of ecosystem that will change the title to try to optimize. Sometimes when you find really successful products that you're realizing, Oh, maybe people do care about that. Stephanie: I love that. That's really good tips to remember about, finding those keywords and how to discover them because yeah, I think even longterm key words would probably be really good for your industry. I'm thinking, how would I Google something like that? I would probably be like how to create a hard cover book for my presentation or something really long winded like that. It's a really good reminder about the keywords importance. Jeff: Then obviously you have your paid search stuff too. You can look and see in your paid search accounts, you can say, okay, what keywords are actually driving? If it was a broad or a modified broad match keyword, you're going to start to dig in and you can say, oh, it actually matched on this keyword and it drove a sale. Again, driving back and saying, okay, what am I driving sales on? It tends to be a really good place to start discovery as well. The only thing, the problem with that is that you might be so far off that you're missing the boat completely. That's where it takes a really good merchandisers to sort of nail that stuff down. Stephanie: I also think it was interesting earlier when you were talking about how to laminate without a laminator and thinking about selling something through saying, oh yeah, you don't need to buy through us. Here's how you do it because I'm sure a lot of people, like you said, are searching for stuff like that or how to fax without a fax machine. I know I've searched that quite a bit, but making fun of it and you might actually be able to convert someone who's like, Oh, I actually just do need a laminator to do this, but having a humorous video around that. Jeff: Yeah. As well as maybe they decide that they want to buy some cold laminating pouches. The idea is, if you can be really helpful in the long term, going back to that idea of video. We've done a lot of videos over the years. We understand that many, many, many times people use our videos post-purchase not pre-purchase. People are going to the video to figure out how does this thing that I already bought work. Well, that doesn't really help us but it does help us in the long term. Jeff: As you look at it and say, it's not going to win us the sale today, but it will win us brand awareness. It does potentially when you do supply sales. Because we're a very supply driven sort of space. If you think about it, if you buy a binding machine, you got to buy some supplies for it. Longterm, we want to have an awareness and be in front of customers so they understand who we are when it comes time to buy the supplies that they need. Stephanie: Just like you said, it's really important to continue to stay in front of that customer so they come to you to buy supplies and remember you guys. How do you go about doing that and keeping a customer retained? Because it seems like it would be easier with these legacy customers who are maybe in these year or three year long contracts. Now when you're moving towards Ecommerce and they can hop around really quickly, it seems like you wouldn't be able to retain customers as easily. So how do you go about staying in front of them? Jeff: I mean, there's a lot to that, the question. To give you maybe a general overview of our thoughts is a big part of our business and something that's really important to us. Especially on the E-com side of things, it really starts with delivering a really awesome experience upfront. So you need to be able to help them find what they need and then deliver it to them in a really reasonable timeframe or meet their deadline. All that kind of stuff. To have the product in stock and all of those kinds of pieces. That's actually harder said than done when you deal with a really large niche category. Jeff: That's the beginning piece of it. Once you've given them that positive experience, or if they've had a negative experience, you use your customer service to basically earn a customer for life. That's actually the motto of our customer service group. Earn a customer for life. As you look at this idea, you say, okay, well, we now have a shot at their business longterm. Now the challenge for us is, okay, what's the best way to reach them? The easiest way is email. We have a ton of automation in our emails. We send emails based upon what you've purchased with replenishment. We send life cycle campaigns based upon... Welcome to the store anniversaries campaigns, and then also best customer campaigns, win back campaigns and reactivation campaigns. Jeff: We have all these automations that go out. They're really helpful. We also have sales that go out on a weekly basis that keep people engaged and keep things front of mind for them. You combine all of that on the email side, but then you recognize that that maybe only gets you half the customers. The question becomes... Because there's a bunch that are opted out in the B2B space, it's really hard on deliverability to get into the inbox. More and more people are using advanced filtering programs to prevent spam from getting through to their employees. Jeff: As you look at that, you say, okay, well, email only takes you so far. So then what do you do? The real question is, back to that conversation we had earlier about lead scoring, how do you determine your best customers or your best potential customers and make sure that you get somebody to call them? To send them a personal email which are easier to get into their inbox or to find another way of touching them. For us right now, the two other ways of touching them that we're sort of exploring, one would be SMS and then another would be direct mail. We're kind of in the process of exploring a test on SMS. Jeff: I'm not too sure how we feel about it, honestly. We have to figure out how our customers feel about it, just from the standpoint of as you look at customers giving their personal cell phones for business purchases and getting text messages. But you think about it, that's a great way to get in front of people and stay in front of them as long as you're going to be super, highly relevant. Then the other piece of it that we do a little bit of would be on that retargeting side of things. If you don't know who that customer is exactly, or don't have their ability to email them, you can at least sort of [inaudible] do it, make sure you're sending or placing ads more frequently into their feeds on different platforms through retargeting. Stephanie: That makes sense. It seems from, especially in SMS perspective, it seems like the only angle you can go about is being helpful. Like oh, you probably are running out of supplies, order now. I don't know, you can get a discount or something. It seems like there's not too many ways for B2B companies to use texting without the customer being like, "Oh, I don't want to be thinking about work right now." Unless it's a trigger for them to be like, "Oh, I need to reorder this or else we're not going to have it on the day." Is that true or are you seeing other avenues? Jeff: Well, the first step would be to be helpful with order cycle. For instance, think about what Amazon has done with allowing you to get a text when the item is delivered. Which is a big problem for a bunch of our customers, especially in pandemic, but even outside of that. It might be delivered to a central desk or to the shipping and receiving area of their company like an alert. Alerts are a pretty good option for us to sort of get our toe in the water a little bit and to stay active. Then yes, something that's personalized. Jeff: Then also, what we're struggling with is what is the best time of day to do this? Probably don't want to send it to them in the middle of their evening. They're disconnected from work, but you also need to make sure that... It's got to be time adjusted for the time that they're in and they also really needs to be followed in their workday probably. Those are some of the things that we're sort of figuring out and testing right now and saying how is this going? Then what's also the most appropriate way to collect where people don't sort of get freaked out. Because it's one of those things, do you want to get text messages from your binding company? I don't know. You got to ask it in an appropriate way. Stephanie: Yeah. That's a really good reminder. All right. We have a couple minutes left and I want to jump into a quick lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Jeff, are you ready? Jeff: Okay. I'm ready. Stephanie: I'm going to start with the hard one first for you because I feel like you're in a game right now. I got to keep it going. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Jeff: Well, I think obviously it's COVID. It's pushing people online in completely new ways. It's shifting customer expectations around a whole bunch of different things. It's ruined the Amazon two day expectation, which I don't mind, but it's also shifted the way that people shop, where they're shopping, how they're shopping, and even their mentality. I don't know that we even really totally understand how it's affected everybody yet because everybody's still sort of in this scrambling mode. But ultimately I think as this shakes out, it's going to change the landscape of how we market, but it's also going to change the landscape of how our customers interact with us. Stephanie: I like that. What one piece of advice would you give a new Ecommerce entrepreneur? Jeff: I would probably say stick with solving the customer's problems. I know that tends to be a B2B thing, but it's not really a B2B thing. If you think about it, I need the right sweater for me. Really be customer centric. That becomes really cliche and that's why I go to the idea of solving a problem. You got to think about what sort of value proposition are you offering to this customer that's unique, that is going to allow them to accomplish something that they wanted to accomplish when they came to your site. Jeff: I think by focusing and being really focused on the customer problem, I think you can build out really awesome experiences, and then that deep understanding of your customer will take you really far. Stephanie: That's a good one. What is your favorite day in the office? I'm trying to imagine what a binding company feels like. What's your favorite day in the office feel like? Jeff: I mean, most of my days are pretty full of meetings. A day without meetings would be an awesome day in the office. Stephanie: That's a lot of people. Jeff: I think so. In the world of the binding company, a day in the office doesn't look all that much different than a day in a normal office. It might be a little bit like an episode of the office. Stephanie: That's what I had in my mind honestly. Jeff: Yeah. It's like paper company. There is a little bit of aspects of that, but I mean, we're just like any other company. We're a retailer, we're a distributor. We deal with customers all day long. I would say the other thing, the best day in the office is the day that you have customers that love you and that are just heaping praises, especially on the customer service people and your salespeople. When you have customers who are just singing your praises, those are great days. Stephanie: Yep. That's awesome. I'm glad you mentioned the office and I didn't have to. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Jeff: That's a tough one. If I were to have a podcast. I am super passionate about entrepreneurship. I'd probably do an entrepreneurship sort of a podcast about starting a business, growing a business, and the creativity that goes around that. If I could get anybody on the show, I would probably pick an entrepreneur. Maybe I pick the person from lemonade stand or one of those organizations that's really making a big impact on starting up entrepreneurs with kids. That's something that I really love. Stephanie: Yep. I like that. Brings back the memories of my parents make me [inaudible] my neighbor's yard for 25 cents which is well below market. Jeff: I think you could make at least 50 cents for that now. Stephanie: I think so too. All right Jeff, this was very interesting, such a good conversation. So many good tid bits that people can actually use from this interview. Where can people find out more about you and Spiral? Jeff: Sure. You can definitely visit one of our websites. We've got SpiralBinding.com. We have MyBinding.com and Binding101.com. You can find me on LinkedIn as well. Shoot me a message and ask me to connect and I'd love to meet you. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks so much for joining Jeff. Jeff: You're welcome. Thank you.

Cornerstore Podcast Ep20. I'm A Scientist, I Google. by Cornerstore Podcast

DXVK breaks Pedro's favourite game! Factorio completes their 8.5 year development cycle, open-source voice changers for Linux, and Epic sues iGoogle. Then UnderMine faces, the CHAIRQASITION!

Earning Freedom: Conquering a 45-Year Prison Term, by Michael Santos Reading Chapter 13.2 Episode describes being in the hole at Lompoc Camp, and getting charged with disciplinary infractions, advocacy, prevailing. Months 232-233 ******* Confinement in SHU, “the hole,” is intended as further punishment to imprisonment. It is constant deprivation, leaving a person without access to phone calls, commissary, or recreation yards. The forced segregation can last for days, weeks, months, or years. Some men flip out when authorities send them to the hole. They retaliate by kicking on the doors, banging fists or heads against the walls, or becoming delusional.  But I’ll be okay, regardless of what this system does. During the decades I’ve served, guards have locked me in the SHU several times, but never for a disciplinary infraction. I’ve been through enough transfers and holdover cells that the close quarters don’t bother me anymore. I block out the screaming and noise from other cells. Carole sends me subscriptions to four news magazines. She sends three books each week. I finish reading two extensive biographies by Ron Chernow, one on J.D. Rockefeller and another on J.P. Morgan. I read the Bible and exercise daily on my tiny patch of cement floor. I didn’t expect the abrupt change, but it doesn’t paralyze me. The solitude allows me time to stare at the concrete walls and think. Only the taunting from petty bureaucrats like Jim Miller disturbs my serenity. Mr. Miller is the Camp Administrator at Lompoc, essentially the CEO of the camp. I met him during my first week here, back in July of 2005. After my hasty transfer from the Florence Camp, I needed some assurance that my published writings wouldn’t cause problems. If Carole was going through the expense of moving to California, we had to be reasonably certain staff wouldn’t transfer me again. After his gatekeeper, the dragon lady, let me in, Miller agreed to talk to me in his conference room. Miller presents an imposing figure. He stands six-five, wears cowboy boots, has a powerful build with an alabaster round head, fleshy cheeks, and blue eyes that remain half-closed whenever he addresses a prisoner. When I stood in front of his desk the first time we met, he leaned back in his chair to applaud me, a corner of his mouth rising in a sarcastic sneer. “Well, Mr. San-tos, you must be very proud of yourself.” He derisively hyphenates my last name with his affected drawl. “Why’s that?” I was not surprised that he knew my name. “You’re the first person I’ve met who comes up first when I Google his name.” “I wouldn’t know. I’ve never used the Internet.” “Let’s not kid each other, Mr. San-tos. You know exactly what you’re doing.” “Do you have a problem with my writing? That’s what I wanted to talk to you about. My wife is planning on moving here, and before she does I want to make sure I’m not going to be transferred.” He shrugged. “That’s entirely up to you” “I don’t do anything that violates the rules. But I have a new book coming out,” I told him. “Will that cause me any problems here?” He shook his head. “We’ll just have to wait and see. I don’t have a crystal ball, can’t make no guarantees.” When I went to see Mr. Miller for that face-to-face conversation two years ago, I was making the record clear about my work. I purposely avoided him after that meeting. Now that I’m locked in SHU, he appears at my cell, leans against the doorframe, and peers through the window cut into the door. I ignore him, though his big, clean shaven head fills the window and I can sense his contempt. He taps the window with his ring and I look over. “Got any questions for me, Mr. San-tos?” I shake my head. He jerks his head, gesturing that I should walk toward the door. “Your wife’s causing all kinds of ruckus out here, making extra work for me.” “I’ve got a few problems of my own,” I say into the doorframe. He nods his head, irritation evident in his tight-lipped expression. “I need you to sign these releases.” He slides a file with papers under the door along with a pen. “What are they for?” I ask. “They authorize me to communicate information to the people bothering me about your case.” “I’m an open book. I’ve got nothing to hide. You can communicate with anyone who asks about me.” “Sign the forms,” he gestures with his index finger. After signing, I slide the file back under the door. “I’ll need that pen back, Mr. San-tos.”
I slide him the pen. “You know you’ll never return to a camp, don’t you?” he grins, appearing quite pleased. “Do those 20 years that I’ve already served still count?” My question diminishes some of the pleasure he derives from taunting prisoners. “What’s that?” he asks. “The past 20 years I’ve served, don’t they still count?” Miller doesn’t respond but nods his big, shiny head and walks down the hall gripping his file folder full of signed forms. ******* A week passes and a guard finally comes, ordering me to cuff up. I grab an envelope that contains a statement I wrote to detail my version of events. Then I back up to the trap for handcuffing. The guard grips the chain and leads me from my cell down the corridor, through the gates, past the control bubble, and into an office with walls covered in dark acoustic padding for soundproofing. Behind a desk a lieutenant sits with his back to me as he types. He has a pale, bald head, and three rolls of fat droop at the base of his thick neck. “I’ve got Inmate Santos,” the guard announces. “That’ll be all, Officer,” the lieutenant says. The guard releases his grip on my handcuffs and walks out, leaving me standing in front of the desk with my hands cuffed behind my back. After he finishes typing, the lieutenant spins his cushioned chair around to face me. “Do you know who I am?” “I know you’re a lieutenant.” He nods his head. “That’s right. I’m Lieutenant Tremble and I understand you’re some kind of celebrity around here.” “I’m a long-term prisoner. That’s it.” “Good, I’m glad to hear we understand each other, because no matter how many people you have calling this prison, or how many letters people write, I’m not treatin’ you any diff’rent than I treat anyone else.” Firm but fair. That’s the BOP motto. But I know that if it weren’t for my wife’s success in mobilizing my friends and those in my support network, this lieutenant would’ve kept me stewing for a month “under investigation” before he called me in. “I’m investigatin’ the two disciplinary infractions you’re bein’ charged with,” Lieutenant Tremble says. “What are the charges?” “Conducting a business and unauthorized use of government equipment.  Specifically, you used a computer. Now Whadda ya have to tell me?” “I’m not running a business, and I had staff authorization for my work on the computer. I prepared a written statement that I want you to make part of the record.” “Let me have the statement.” I turn my back to him and he grabs the envelope from my cuffed hands. “It’s all in there,” I say, turning to face him again. The lieutenant opens the envelope and pulls out the three yellow pages. “You want me to include all of this?” “I want a full written record. This isn’t my first problem with the BOP and I’ve learned that documenting everything serves my interests well.” The lieutenant shakes his head. “Do you realize I’ve got to type all this?” “I take disciplinary charges seriously and I intend to prove I wasn’t doing anything that could be considered against the rules.” “Fine. I’ll read your statement later. Give me the quick version now.” I shrug my shoulders. “I don’t run a business. I write and type manuscripts for books. The books describe prison and encourage readers to lead responsible lives. BOP policy allows me to do this without staff permission and my Central File includes a letter from a BOP attorney specifically authorizing my work. I send the manuscripts home. My wife converts them into books. I assign away the rights to all royalties so I don’t have any financial or business interest in the work. I don’t have anything to hide.” “What about the computer?” Lieutenant Tremble asks. “Mr. Brown authorized me to use it after I completed my required duties. No one in the powerhouse is going to complain about my work.” “Well why don’t you think anyone from the powerhouse is steppin’ up to bail you out?” “I don’t know what they’re doing or why.” “Mr. Brown doesn’t have the authority to grant you permission to use the computer for personal work. Staff members don’t even have permission to use computers for personal work. These computers are for government work only. Besides that, I already spoke with Mr. Brown.  He says that he never gave you permission to use the computer for anything but government work.” I shake my head, not surprised to learn that my supervisor takes the cowardly route of self-preservation, denying the truth. “You know what that means?” The lieutenant smiles derisively. “I don’t.  What does that mean?” “I’m going to have to amend the disciplinary report. I’ll be adding a third charge of lying to a staff member. You lied when you told me that you had permission to use the computer for personal work.” “Did it ever occur to you that the staff may be lying?” “Be careful, Inmate Santos. You don’t wanna dig yourself in deeper, do you?” “Check the files in the computer. You’ll see that I typed plenty of documents for staff members.” “What kind of documents?” The lieutenant shifts, smelling a bigger fish. “Documents that don’t have anything to do with government work.” “You’re telling me that BOP staff members had an inmate typin’ their personal information? I don’t buy it.” “Check it out. When staff asked for my help, I complied. Those computer files will show that I typed letters pertaining to their personal real estate holdings, résumés, and applications for jobs with other agencies.” He’s incredulous. “Are you telling me that my staff members asked you to type their résumés? They gave you personal information?” “Well I don’t know whether they’d consider themselves your staff members, but I certainly typed up their personal work at their request?”  “Then it looks like I’ve got more investigatin’ to do.” “Then you better go about your investigating.  It shouldn’t be hard.  The files are all over the computer.” ******* I’ve been locked in the hole for a month and I’m keeping my family and friends apprised of my situation by writing a daily journal describing the routine I’ve created. Carole posts the articles on MichaelSantos.net, connecting me to the world even if I am locked in a box. When the guard escorts me out to visit Carole on Saturday morning, she delivers wonderful news. “I’ve been talking with a high-level contact in the regional office,” Carole’s eyes sparkle. “I don’t even want to say her name in here.” “Okay, I get it. What’s up?” “I’ve sent her all of your books. She’s reviewed your entire file and she’s totally impressed with your record. She saw all the efforts you made to let the staff know about your writing and she reviewed the documents you typed for your supervisors at the powerhouse.” “And? I’m still being charged with running a business, using the computer, and lying to staff.” “Not anymore. You’ve been totally cleared of those charges and you’re being transferred to another camp. Honey, this mess is finally over.” That news from Carole elevates my spirit. Any day I expect guards will pull me out for transfer. Instead, on Tuesday evening, May 22nd, Lieutenant Marx taps his steel key against my window, smiling with his nod for me to approach the doorframe. “Got a new disciplinary infraction for ya,” he grins wickedly, “hun’red series.” “What are you talking about?” My stomach drops like a brick. A 100-series disciplinary infraction characterizes it as being one of the greatest in severity, exposing a prisoner to potential new criminal prosecution. “We found your weapon.” He nods gleefully. “Weapon? I’ve been locked in SHU for 31 days. You’re telling me you found a weapon today? That’s ridiculous,” I yell into the doorframe. He slides the disciplinary report under the door. “Prove it.” He shrugs, grins, and vanishes from sight down the tier. When Dorkin locked me in segregation in April he separated me from access to my personal property. He and Mr. Smith packed all of my belongings into green duffle bags. They filled out property forms that detailed every item they packed in the bags, down to the number of Bic pens. I have copies of those property forms and they don’t mention my having anything that could be construed as a weapon. Yet this new disciplinary infraction Lieutenant Marx just delivered accuses me of possessing a “sharpened metal weapon.” I’ve been locked in high security penitentiaries and I’ve thrived through 20 years of imprisonment without problems. Now I have to argue against a charge that I packed a weapon in camp cupcake? I’m being framed. Regardless of the guards’ motivation, a 100-series disciplinary infraction exposes me to the possibility of criminal charges. I spend the evening writing a lengthy protest on my yellow legal pad. On Saturday morning, Carole comes to visit and I tell her about this latest disruption. “They’re retaliating against you because the regional director expunged the other charges,” Carole understands the gravity of this new problem as I tell her of the weapons charge.  She worries that this isn’t ever going to end. “Whatever it takes, we’re going to fight this. If there was a weapon in my property, one of these crooked guards planted it. I haven’t had access to my property for more than a month.” “Michael, I hate this place and everything about it. I’m calling my contact at the region as soon as I leave here. Even an idiot can see that you’re being framed.  We’ll get you out of this.” Despite Carole’s confidence, I feel like I’m in a viper pit. ******* I’m on the toilet when I hear tapping on the window. I don’t even have to look up to know Miller has returned. He gestures with his shaved head for me to step to the doorframe. While I finish using the toilet, his big head stays in the window. I take my time washing my hands, then step closer while drying my hands on the threadbare towel. “Got calls from National Geographic Television and BBC radio requesting interviews with you. Looks like your wife’s been busy.” “Is that what you came to tell me?” I speak into the frame. “Do you want to participate in the interviews?” “Yes.” “Sign these release forms.” He slides the folder under the door with a pen. I sign both and slide them back. Miller picks up the folder, and then he opens it to make sure I signed on the right spot. “The requests are denied,” he states with a sneer and walks away. ******* On Thursday a guard comes for me. He cuffs and marches me out from my cell, down the tunnel and through the gates to the soundproof lieutenant’s office. “That will be all, Officer.” It’s Merkle, the SIS. He walks out from behind his desk and unlocks my handcuffs. “Remember me?” he asks. “Yes,” I say, even though two years have passed since I last saw the SIS lieutenant. “Sit down.” A stack of papers sits neatly on his desk. “I’ve prepared an affidavit. I’d like you to read it over. If it’s accurate, I’d like you to sign it. If anything is inaccurate, I’d like you to tell me so I can correct it. Okay?” “Fine. Give me the affidavit.” The document describes my use of the computer in the powerhouse, emphasizing the résumés, job applications, and rental agreements I typed for staff members at their direction. “The affidavit doesn’t mention anything about the weapon planted in my property after I was exonerated from charges of lying to staff, running a business, and using the computer for personal work,” I point out. “That’s a separate investigation,” he says. “Can I use your pen?” He pulls a gold pen from the inside pocket of his blazer and passes it to me. When I sign, I appreciate the smooth precision of the roller ball. “What are you in here for?” he asks. “When I was in my early 20s, I sold cocaine. It was a bad decision.” I return his pen. “Nice pen.” “Didn’t the president’s brother sell cocaine?” He puts the pen back in his inside pocket. “That was Roger Clinton. The president pardoned him before leaving office.” “And ‘justice’ for all,” the SIS officer smirks. ******* I’ve been locked in SHU for 60 days on the Saturday morning when I walk into the visiting room and see Carole’s radiant smile. “You look like you have good news,” I ask after we kiss and sit across from each other. “Can’t I just be happy to see my husband?” “Oh, so you like seeing me in my orange jumpsuit, unshaven?” “I talked to my contact at the region yesterday. The regional director knows you didn’t have a weapon. Every charge against you is already expunged and your record is totally clear again. You’re being transferred to another camp.” “Which camp?” “I’ll know on Monday. It doesn’t matter. I want you out of Lompoc.” Returning to my cell after our visit, relief floods through me and I thank God for the many blessings in my life. Some may consider Lompoc Camp as a “crown jewel” in the BOP system, but it’s tarnished and toxic, top to bottom. Maybe something bigger will come from my being thrown in SHU on trumped up charges. Maybe this crown jewel will get a much-needed cleaning. I hear Miller’s voice. He’s talking to a prisoner in a cell down the tier. He doesn’t stick his big round head in my window to watch me today. As he walks back toward the gates, I knock for him to approach. “What is it, Mr. San-tos?” He leans into the door from the hallway. “Did you hear that your superiors at the region have completely exonerated me of all those charges?” He looks at me with his signature sneer. “I did hear something about that.” “I guess I’ll be going to another camp after all,” I smile. After more than two months in SHU I can’t contain the mockery in my tone. “Looks that way,” he responds with studied neutrality. “I’m requesting a furlough transfer.” With a furlough transfer, Carole would be able to transport me to the new camp where I would surrender, sparing me the indignity of chains and guards. He shakes his head. “Don’t count on it, Mr. San-tos. You’ll be traveling in chains.”