Podcast appearances and mentions of Marina district

TL;DR: You can now buy tickets, apply to speak, or join the expo for the biggest AI Engineer event of 2024. We're gathering *everyone* you want to meet - see you this June.In last year's the Rise of the AI Engineer we put our money where our mouth was and announced the AI Engineer Summit, which fortunately went well:With ~500 live attendees and over ~500k views online, the first iteration of the AI Engineer industry affair seemed to be well received. Competing in an expensive city with 3 other more established AI conferences in the fall calendar, we broke through in terms of in-person experience and online impact.So at the end of Day 2 we announced our second event: the AI Engineer World's Fair. The new website is now live, together with our new presenting sponsor:We were delighted to invite both Ben Dunphy, co-organizer of the conference and Sam Schillace, the deputy CTO of Microsoft who wrote some of the first Laws of AI Engineering while working with early releases of GPT-4, on the pod to talk about the conference and how Microsoft is all-in on AI Engineering.Rise of the Planet of the AI EngineerSince the first AI Engineer piece, AI Engineering has exploded:and the title has been adopted across OpenAI, Meta, IBM, and many, many other companies:1 year on, it is clear that AI Engineering is not only in full swing, but is an emerging global industry that is successfully bridging the gap:* between research and product, * between general-purpose foundation models and in-context use-cases, * and between the flashy weekend MVP (still great!) and the reliable, rigorously evaluated AI product deployed at massive scale, assisting hundreds of employees and driving millions in profit.The greatly increased scope of the 2024 AI Engineer World's Fair (more stages, more talks, more speakers, more attendees, more expo…) helps us reflect the growth of AI Engineering in three major dimensions:* Global Representation: the 2023 Summit was a mostly-American affair. This year we plan to have speakers from top AI companies across five continents, and explore the vast diversity of approaches to AI across global contexts.* Topic Coverage: * In 2023, the Summit focused on the initial questions that the community wrestled with - LLM frameworks, RAG and Vector Databases, Code Copilots and AI Agents. Those are evergreen problems that just got deeper.* This year the AI Engineering field has also embraced new core disciplines with more explicit focus on Multimodality, Evals and Ops, Open Source Models and GPU/Inference Hardware providers.* Maturity/Production-readiness: Two new tracks are dedicated toward AI in the Enterprise, government, education, finance, and more highly regulated industries or AI deployed at larger scale: * AI in the Fortune 500, covering at-scale production deployments of AI, and* AI Leadership, a closed-door, side event for technical AI leaders to discuss engineering and product leadership challenges as VPs and Heads of AI in their respective orgs.We hope you will join Microsoft and the rest of us as either speaker, exhibitor, or attendee, in San Francisco this June. Contact us with any enquiries that don't fall into the categories mentioned below.Show Notes* Ben Dunphy* 2023 Summit* GitHub confirmed $100m ARR on stage* History of World's Fairs* Sam Schillace* Writely on Acquired.fm* Early Lessons From GPT-4: The Schillace Laws* Semantic Kernel* Sam on Kevin Scott (Microsoft CTO)'s podcast in 2022* AI Engineer World's Fair (SF, Jun 25-27)* Buy Super Early Bird tickets (Listeners can use LATENTSPACE for $100 off any ticket until April 8, or use GROUP if coming in 4 or more)* Submit talks and workshops for Speaker CFPs (by April 8)* Enquire about Expo Sponsorship (Asap.. selling fast)Timestamps* [00:00:16] Intro* [00:01:04] 2023 AI Engineer Summit* [00:03:11] Vendor Neutral* [00:05:33] 2024 AIE World's Fair* [00:07:34] AIE World's Fair: 9 Tracks* [00:08:58] AIE World's Fair Keynotes* [00:09:33] Introducing Sam* [00:12:17] AI in 2020s vs the Cloud in 2000s* [00:13:46] Syntax vs Semantics* [00:14:22] Bill Gates vs GPT-4* [00:16:28] Semantic Kernel and Schillace's Laws of AI Engineering* [00:17:29] Orchestration: Break it into pieces* [00:19:52] Prompt Engineering: Ask Smart to Get Smart* [00:21:57] Think with the model, Plan with Code* [00:23:12] Metacognition vs Stochasticity* [00:24:43] Generating Synthetic Textbooks* [00:26:24] Trade leverage for precision; use interaction to mitigate* [00:27:18] Code is for syntax and process; models are for semantics and intent.* [00:28:46] Hands on AI Leadership* [00:33:18] Multimodality vs "Text is the universal wire protocol"* [00:35:46] Azure OpenAI vs Microsoft Research vs Microsoft AI Division* [00:39:40] On Satya* [00:40:44] Sam at AI Leadership Track* [00:42:05] Final Plug for Tickets & CFPTranscript[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO in residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co host Swyx, founder of Small[00:00:16] Intro[00:00:16] swyx: AI. Hey, hey, we're back again with a very special episode, this time with two guests and talking about the very in person events rather than online stuff.[00:00:27] swyx: So first I want to welcome Ben Dunphy, who is my co organizer on AI engineer conferences. Hey, hey, how's it going? We have a very special guest. Anyone who's looking at the show notes and the title will preview this later. But I guess we want to set the context. We are effectively doing promo for the upcoming AI Engineer World's Fair that's happening in June.[00:00:49] swyx: But maybe something that we haven't actually recapped much on the pod is just the origin of the AI Engineer Summit and why, what happens and what went down. Ben, I don't know if you'd like to start with the raw numbers that people should have in mind.[00:01:04] 2023 AI Engineer Summit[00:01:04] Ben Dunphy: Yeah, perhaps your listeners would like just a quick background on the summit.[00:01:09] Ben Dunphy: I mean, I'm sure many folks have heard of our events. You know, you launched, we launched the AI Engineer Summit last June with your, your article kind of coining the term that was on the tip of everyone's tongue, but curiously had not been actually coined, which is the term AI Engineer, which is now many people's, Job titles, you know, we're seeing a lot more people come to this event, with the job description of AI engineer, with the job title of AI engineer so, is an event that you and I really talked about since February of 2023, when we met at a hackathon you organized we were both excited by this movement and it hasn't really had a name yet.[00:01:48] Ben Dunphy: We decided that an event was warranted and that's why we move forward with the AI Engineer Summit, which Ended up being a great success. You know, we had over 5, 000 people apply to attend in person. We had over 9, 000 folks attend, online with over 20, 000 on the live stream.[00:02:06] Ben Dunphy: In person, we accepted about 400 attendees and had speakers, workshop instructors and sponsors, all congregating in San Francisco over, two days, um, two and a half days with a, with a welcome reception. So it was quite the event to kick off kind of this movement that's turning into quite an exciting[00:02:24] swyx: industry.[00:02:25] swyx: The overall idea of this is that I kind of view AI engineering, at least in all my work in Latent Space and the other stuff, as starting an industry.[00:02:34] swyx: And I think every industry, every new community, needs a place to congregate. And I definitely think that AI engineer, at least at the conference, is that it's meant to be like the biggest gathering of technical engineering people working with AI. Right. I think we kind of got that spot last year. There was a very competitive conference season, especially in San Francisco.[00:02:54] swyx: But I think as far as I understand, in terms of cultural impact, online impact, and the speakers that people want to see, we, we got them all and it was very important for us to be a vendor neutral type of event. Right. , The reason I partnered with Ben is that Ben has a lot of experience, a lot more experience doing vendor neutral stuff.[00:03:11] Vendor Neutral[00:03:11] swyx: I first met you when I was speaking at one of your events, and now we're sort of business partners on that. And yeah, I mean, I don't know if you have any sort of Thoughts on make, making things vendor neutral, making things more of a community industry conference rather than like something that's owned by one company.[00:03:25] swyx: Yeah.[00:03:25] Ben Dunphy: I mean events that are owned by a company are great, but this is typically where you have product pitches and this smaller internet community. But if you want the truly internet community, if you want a more varied audience and you know, frankly, better content for, especially for a technical audience, you want a vendor neutral event. And this is because when you have folks that are running the event that are focused on one thing and one thing alone, which is quality, quality of content, quality of speakers, quality of the in person experience, and just of general relevance it really elevates everything to the next level.[00:04:01] Ben Dunphy: And when you have someone like yourself who's coming To this content curation the role that you take at this event, and bringing that neutrality with, along with your experience, that really helps to take it to the next level, and then when you have someone like myself, focusing on just the program curation, and the in person experience, then both of our forces combined, we can like, really create this epic event, and so, these vendor neutral events if you've been to a small community event, Typically, these are vendor neutral, but also if you've been to a really, really popular industry event, many of the top industry events are actually vendor neutral.[00:04:37] Ben Dunphy: And that's because of the fact that they're vendor neutral, not in spite of[00:04:41] swyx: it. Yeah, I've been pretty open about the fact that my dream is to build the KubeCon of AI. So if anyone has been in the Kubernetes world, they'll understand what that means. And then, or, or instead of the NeurIPS, NeurIPS for engineers, where engineers are the stars and engineers are sharing their knowledge.[00:04:57] swyx: Perspectives, because I think AI is definitely moving over from research to engineering and production. I think one of my favorite parts was just honestly having GitHub and Microsoft support, which we'll cover in a bit, but you know, announcing finally that GitHub's copilot was such a commercial success I think was the first time that was actually confirmed by anyone in public.[00:05:17] swyx: For me, it's also interesting as sort of the conference curator to put Microsoft next to competitors some of which might be much smaller AI startups and to see what, where different companies are innovating in different areas.[00:05:27] swyx: Well, they're next to[00:05:27] Ben Dunphy: each other in the arena. So they can be next to each other on stage too.[00:05:33] Why AIE World's Fair[00:05:33] swyx: Okay, so this year World's Fair we are going a lot bigger what details are we disclosing right now? Yeah,[00:05:39] Ben Dunphy: I guess we should start with the name why are we calling it the World's Fair? And I think we need to go back to what inspired this, what actually the original World's Fair was, which was it started in the late 1700s and went to the early 1900s.[00:05:53] Ben Dunphy: And it was intended to showcase the incredible achievements. Of nation states, corporations, individuals in these grand expos. So you have these miniature cities actually being built for these grand expos. In San Francisco, for example, you had the entire Marina District built up in absolutely new construction to showcase the achievements of industry, architecture, art, and culture.[00:06:16] Ben Dunphy: And many of your listeners will know that in 1893, the Nikola Tesla famously provided power to the Chicago World's Fair with his 8 seat power generator. There's lots of great movies and documentaries about this. That was the first electric World's Fair, which thereafter it was referred to as the White City.[00:06:33] Ben Dunphy: So in today's world we have technological change that's similar to what was experienced during the industrial revolution in how it's, how it's just upending our entire life, how we live, work, and play. And so we have artificial intelligence, which has long been the dream of humanity.[00:06:51] Ben Dunphy: It's, it's finally here. And the pace of technological change is just accelerating. So with this event, as you mentioned, we, we're aiming to create a singular event where the world's foremost experts, builders, and practitioners can come together to exchange and reflect. And we think this is not only good for business, but it's also good for our mental health.[00:07:12] Ben Dunphy: It slows things down a bit from the Twitter news cycle to an in person festival of smiles, handshakes, connections, and in depth conversations that online media and online events can only ever dream of replicating. So this is an expo led event where the world's top companies will mingle with the world's top founders and AI engineers who are building and enhanced by AI.[00:07:34] AIE World's Fair: 9 Tracks[00:07:34] Ben Dunphy: And not to mention, we're featuring over a hundred talks and workshops across[00:07:37] swyx: nine tracks. Yeah, I mean, those nine tracks will be fun. Actually, do we have a little preview of the tracks in the, the speakers?[00:07:43] Ben Dunphy: We do. Folks can actually see them today at our website. We've updated that at ai.[00:07:48] Ben Dunphy: engineer. So we'd encourage them to go there to see that. But for those just listening, we have nine tracks. So we have multimodality. We have retrieval augmented generation. Featuring LLM frameworks and vector databases, evals and LLM ops, open source models, code gen and dev tools, GPUs and inference, AI agent applications, AI in the fortune 500, and then we have a special track for AI leadership which you can access by purchasing the VP pass which is different from the, the other passes we have.[00:08:20] Ben Dunphy: And I won't go into the Each of these tracks in depth, unless you want to, Swyx but there's more details on the website at ai. engineer.[00:08:28] swyx: I mean, I, I, very much looking forward to talking to our special guests for the last track, I think, which is the what a lot of yeah, leaders are thinking about, which is how to, Inspire innovation in their companies, especially the sort of larger organizations that might not have the in house talents for that kind of stuff.[00:08:47] swyx: So yeah, we can talk about the expo, but I'm very keen to talk about the presenting sponsor if you want to go slightly out of order from our original plan.[00:08:58] AIE World's Fair Keynotes[00:08:58] Ben Dunphy: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, for the stage of keynotes, we have talks confirmed from Microsoft, OpenAI, AWS, and Google.[00:09:06] Ben Dunphy: And our presenting sponsor is joining the stage with those folks. And so that presenting sponsor this year is a dream sponsor. It's Microsoft. It's the company really helping to lead the charge. And into this wonderful new era that we're all taking part in. So, yeah,[00:09:20] swyx: you know, a bit of context, like when we first started planning this thing, I was kind of brainstorming, like, who would we like to get as the ideal presenting sponsors, as ideal partners long term, just in terms of encouraging the AI engineering industry, and it was Microsoft.[00:09:33] Introducing Sam[00:09:33] swyx: So Sam, I'm very excited to welcome you onto the podcast. You are CVP and Deputy CTO of Microsoft. Welcome.[00:09:40] Sam Schillace: Nice to be here. I'm looking forward to, I was looking for, to Lessio saying my last name correctly this time. Oh[00:09:45] swyx: yeah. So I, I studiously avoided saying, saying your last name, but apparently it's an Italian last name.[00:09:50] swyx: Ski Lache. Ski[00:09:51] Alessio: Lache. Yeah. No, that, that's great, Sean. That's great as a musical person.[00:09:54] swyx: And it, it's also, yeah, I pay attention to like the, the, the lilt. So it's ski lache and the, the slow slowing of the law is, is what I focused[00:10:03] Sam Schillace: on. You say both Ls. There's no silent letters, you say[00:10:07] Alessio: both of those. And it's great to have you, Sam.[00:10:09] Alessio: You know, we've known each other now for a year and a half, two years, and our first conversation, well, it was at Lobby Conference, and then we had a really good one in the kind of parking lot of a Safeway, because we didn't want to go into Starbucks to meet, so we sat outside for about an hour, an hour and a half, and then you had to go to a Bluegrass concert, so it was great.[00:10:28] Alessio: Great meeting, and now, finally, we have you on Lanespace.[00:10:31] Sam Schillace: Cool, cool. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. It's funny, I was just saying to Swyx before you joined that, like, it's kind of an intimidating podcast. Like, when I listen to this podcast, it seems to be, like, one of the more intelligent ones, like, more, more, like, deep technical folks on it.[00:10:44] Sam Schillace: So, it's, like, it's kind of nice to be here. It's fun. Bring your A game. Hopefully I'll, I'll bring mine. I[00:10:49] swyx: mean, you've been programming for longer than some of our listeners have been alive, so I don't think your technical chops are in any doubt. So you were responsible for Rightly as one of your early wins in your career, which then became Google Docs, and obviously you were then responsible for a lot more G Suite.[00:11:07] swyx: But did you know that you covered in Acquired. fm episode 9, which is one of the podcasts that we model after.[00:11:13] Sam Schillace: Oh, cool. I didn't, I didn't realize that the most fun way to say this is that I still have to this day in my personal GDocs account, the very first Google doc, like I actually have it.[00:11:24] Sam Schillace: And I looked it up, like it occurred to me like six months ago that it was probably around and I went and looked and it's still there. So it's like, and it's kind of a funny thing. Cause it's like the backend has been rewritten at least twice that I know of the front end has been re rewritten at least twice that I know of.[00:11:38] Sam Schillace: So. I'm not sure what sense it's still the original one it's sort of more the idea of the original one, like the NFT of it would probably be more authentic. I[00:11:46] swyx: still have it. It's a ship athesia thing. Does it, does it say hello world or something more mundane?[00:11:52] Sam Schillace: It's, it's, it's me and Steve Newman trying to figure out if some collaboration stuff is working, and also a picture of Edna from the Incredibles that I probably pasted in later, because that's That's too early for that, I think.[00:12:05] swyx: People can look up your LinkedIn, and we're going to link it on the show notes, but you're also SVP of engineering for Box, and then you went back to Google to do Google, to lead Google Maps, and now you're deputy CTO.[00:12:17] AI in 2020s vs the Cloud in 2000s[00:12:17] swyx: I mean, there's so many places to start, but maybe one place I like to start off with is do you have a personal GPT 4 experience.[00:12:25] swyx: Obviously being at Microsoft, you have, you had early access and everyone talks about Bill Gates's[00:12:30] Sam Schillace: demo. Yeah, it's kind of, yeah, that's, it's kind of interesting. Like, yeah, we got access, I got access to it like in September of 2022, I guess, like before it was really released. And I it like almost instantly was just like mind blowing to me how good it was.[00:12:47] Sam Schillace: I would try experiments like very early on, like I play music. There's this thing called ABC notation. That's like an ASCII way to represent music. And like, I was like, I wonder if it can like compose a fiddle tune. And like it composed a fiddle tune. I'm like, I wonder if it can change key, change the key.[00:13:01] Sam Schillace: Like it's like really, it was like very astonishing. And I sort of, I'm very like abstract. My background is actually more math than CS. I'm a very abstract thinker and sort of categorical thinker. And the, the thing that occurred to me with, with GPT 4 the first time I saw it was. This is really like the beginning, it's the beginning of V2 of the computer industry completely.[00:13:23] Sam Schillace: I had the same feeling I had when, of like a category shifting that I had when the cloud stuff happened with the GDocs stuff, right? Where it's just like, all of a sudden this like huge vista opens up of capabilities. And I think the way I characterized it, which is a little bit nerdy, but I'm a nerd so lean into it is like everything until now has been about syntax.[00:13:46] Syntax vs Semantics[00:13:46] Sam Schillace: Like, we have to do mediation. We have to describe the real world in forms that the digital world can manage. And so we're the mediation, and we, like, do that via things like syntax and schema and programming languages. And all of a sudden, like, this opens the door to semantics, where, like, you can express intention and meaning and nuance and fuzziness.[00:14:04] Sam Schillace: And the machine itself is doing, the model itself is doing a bunch of the mediation for you. And like, that's obviously like complicated. We can talk about the limits and stuff, and it's getting better in some ways. And we're learning things and all kinds of stuff is going on around it, obviously.[00:14:18] Sam Schillace: But like, that was my immediate reaction to it was just like, Oh my God.[00:14:22] Bill Gates vs GPT-4[00:14:22] Sam Schillace: Like, and then I heard about the build demo where like Bill had been telling Kevin Scott this, This investment is a waste. It's never going to work. AI is blah, blah, blah. And come back when it can pass like an AP bio exam.[00:14:33] Sam Schillace: And they actually literally did that at one point, they brought in like the world champion of the, like the AP bio test or whatever the AP competition and like it and chat GPT or GPT 4 both did the AP bio and GPT 4 beat her. So that was the moment that convinced Bill that this was actually real.[00:14:53] Sam Schillace: Yeah, it's fun. I had a moment with him actually about three weeks after that when we had been, so I started like diving in on developer tools almost immediately and I built this thing with a small team that's called the Semantic Kernel which is one of the very early orchestrators just because I wanted to be able to put code and And inference together.[00:15:10] Sam Schillace: And that's probably something we should dig into more deeply. Cause I think there's some good insights in there, but I I had a bunch of stuff that we were building and then I was asked to go meet with Bill Gates about it and he's kind of famously skeptical and, and so I was a little bit nervous to meet him the first time.[00:15:25] Sam Schillace: And I started the conversation with, Hey, Bill, like three weeks ago, you would have called BS on everything I'm about to show you. And I would probably have agreed with you, but we've both seen this thing. And so we both know it's real. So let's skip that part and like, talk about what's possible.[00:15:39] Sam Schillace: And then we just had this kind of fun, open ended conversation and I showed him a bunch of stuff. So that was like a really nice, fun, fun moment as well. Well,[00:15:46] swyx: that's a nice way to meet Bill Gates and impress[00:15:48] Sam Schillace: him. A little funny. I mean, it's like, I wasn't sure what he would think of me, given what I've done and his.[00:15:54] Sam Schillace: Crown Jewel. But he was nice. I think he likes[00:15:59] swyx: GDocs. Crown Jewel as in Google Docs versus Microsoft Word? Office.[00:16:03] Sam Schillace: Yeah. Yeah, versus Office. Yeah, like, I think, I mean, I can imagine him not liking, I met Steven Snofsky once and he sort of respectfully, but sort of grimaced at me. You know, like, because of how much trauma I had caused him.[00:16:18] Sam Schillace: So Bill was very nice to[00:16:20] swyx: me. In general it's like friendly competition, right? They keep you, they keep you sharp, you keep each[00:16:24] Sam Schillace: other sharp. Yeah, no, I think that's, it's definitely respect, it's just kind of funny.[00:16:28] Semantic Kernel and Schillace's Laws of AI Engineering[00:16:28] Sam Schillace: Yeah,[00:16:28] swyx: So, speaking of semantic kernel, I had no idea that you were that deeply involved, that you actually had laws named after you.[00:16:35] swyx: This only came up after looking into you for a little bit. Skelatches laws, how did those, what's the, what's the origin[00:16:41] Sam Schillace: story? Hey! Yeah, that's kind of funny. I'm actually kind of a modest person and so I'm sure I feel about having my name attached to them. Although I do agree with all, I believe all of them because I wrote all of them.[00:16:49] Sam Schillace: This is like a designer, John Might, who works with me, decided to stick my name on them and put them out there. Seriously, but like, well, but like, so this was just I, I'm not, I don't build models. Like I'm not an AI engineer in the sense of, of like AI researcher that's like doing inference. Like I'm somebody who's like consuming the models.[00:17:09] Sam Schillace: Exactly. So it's kind of funny when you're talking about AI engineering, like it's a good way of putting it. Cause that's how like I think about myself. I'm like, I'm an app builder. I just want to build with this tool. Yep. And so we spent all of the fall and into the winter in that first year, like Just trying to build stuff and learn how this tool worked.[00:17:29] Orchestration: Break it into pieces[00:17:29] Sam Schillace: And I guess those are a little bit in the spirit of like Robert Bentley's programming pearls or something. I was just like, let's kind of distill some of these ideas down of like. How does this thing work? I saw something I still see today with people doing like inference is still kind of expensive.[00:17:46] Sam Schillace: GPUs are still kind of scarce. And so people try to get everything done in like one shot. And so there's all this like prompt tuning to get things working. And one of the first laws was like, break it into pieces. Like if it's hard for you, it's going to be hard for the model. But if it's you know, there's this kind of weird thing where like, it's.[00:18:02] Sam Schillace: It's absolutely not a human being, but starting to think about, like, how would I solve the problem is often a good way to figure out how to architect the program so that the model can solve the problem. So, like, that was one of the first laws. That came from me just trying to, like, replicate a test of a, like, a more complicated, There's like a reasoning process that you have to go through that, that Google was, was the react, the react thing, and I was trying to get GPT 4 to do it on its own.[00:18:32] Sam Schillace: And, and so I'd ask it the question that was in this paper, and the answer to the question is like the year 2000. It's like, what year did this particular author who wrote this book live in this country? And you've kind of got to carefully reason through it. And like, I could not get GPT 4 to Just to answer the question with the year 2000.[00:18:50] Sam Schillace: And if you're thinking about this as like the kernel is like a pipelined orchestrator, right? It's like very Unix y, where like you have a, some kind of command and you pipe stuff to the next parameters and output to the next thing. So I'm thinking about this as like one module in like a pipeline, and I just want it to give me the answer.[00:19:05] Sam Schillace: I don't want anything else. And I could not prompt engineer my way out of that. I just like, it was giving me a paragraph or reasoning. And so I sort of like anthropomorphized a little bit and I was like, well, the only way you can think about stuff is it can think out loud because there's nothing else that the model does.[00:19:19] Sam Schillace: It's just doing token generation. And so it's not going to be able to do this reasoning if it can't think out loud. And that's why it's always producing this. But if you take that paragraph of output, which did get to the right answer and you pipe it into a second prompt. That just says read this conversation and just extract the answer and report it back.[00:19:38] Sam Schillace: That's an easier task. That would be an easier task for you to do or me to do. It's easier reasoning. And so it's an easier thing for the model to do and it's much more accurate. And that's like 100 percent accurate. It always does that. So like that was one of those, those insights on the that led to the, the choice loss.[00:19:52] Prompt Engineering: Ask Smart to Get Smart[00:19:52] Sam Schillace: I think one of the other ones that's kind of interesting that I think people still don't fully appreciate is that GPT 4 is the rough equivalent of like a human being sitting down for centuries or millennia and reading all the books that they can find. It's this vast mind, right, and the embedding space, the latent space, is 100, 000 K, 100, 000 dimensional space, right?[00:20:14] Sam Schillace: Like it's this huge, high dimensional space, and we don't have good, um, Intuition about high dimensional spaces, like the topology works in really weird ways, connectivity works in weird ways. So a lot of what we're doing is like aiming the attention of a model into some part of this very weirdly connected space.[00:20:30] Sam Schillace: That's kind of what prompt engineering is. But that kind of, like, what we observed to begin with that led to one of those laws was You know, ask smart to get smart. And I think we've all, we all understand this now, right? Like this is the whole field of prompt engineering. But like, if you ask like a simple, a simplistic question of the model, you'll get kind of a simplistic answer.[00:20:50] Sam Schillace: Cause you're pointing it at a simplistic part of that high dimensional space. And if you ask it a more intelligent question, you get more intelligent stuff back out. And so I think that's part of like how you think about programming as well. It's like, how are you directing the attention of the model?[00:21:04] Sam Schillace: And I think we still don't have a good intuitive feel for that. To me,[00:21:08] Alessio: the most interesting thing is how do you tie the ask smart, get smart with the syntax and semantics piece. I gave a talk at GDC last week about the rise of full stack employees and how these models are like semantic representation of tasks that people do.[00:21:23] Alessio: But at the same time, we have code. Also become semantic representation of code. You know, I give you the example of like Python that sort it's like really a semantic function. It's not code, but it's actually code underneath. How do you think about tying the two together where you have code?[00:21:39] Alessio: To then extract the smart parts so that you don't have to like ask smart every time and like kind of wrap them in like higher level functions.[00:21:46] Sam Schillace: Yeah, this is, this is actually, we're skipping ahead to kind of later in the conversation, but I like to, I usually like to still stuff down in these little aphorisms that kind of help me remember them.[00:21:57] Think with the model, Plan with Code[00:21:57] Sam Schillace: You know, so we can dig into a bunch of them. One of them is pixels are free, one of them is bots are docs. But the one that's interesting here is Think with the model, plan with code. And so one of the things, so one of the things we've realized, we've been trying to do lots of these like longer running tasks.[00:22:13] Sam Schillace: Like we did this thing called the infinite chatbot, which was the successor to the semantic kernel, which is an internal project. It's a lot like GPTs. The open AI GPT is, but it's like a little bit more advanced in some ways, kind of deep exploration of a rag based bot system. And then we did multi agents from that, trying to do some autonomy stuff and we're, and we're kind of banging our head against this thing.[00:22:34] Sam Schillace: And you know, one of the things I started to realize, this is going to get nerdy for a second. I apologize, but let me dig in on it for just a second. No apology needed. Um, we realized is like, again, this is a little bit of an anthropomorphism and an illusion that we're having. So like when we look at these models, we think there's something continuous there.[00:22:51] Sam Schillace: We're having a conversation with chat GPT or whatever with Azure open air or like, like what's really happened. It's a little bit like watching claymation, right? Like when you watch claymation, you don't think that the model is actually the clay model is actually really alive. You know, that there's like a bunch of still disconnected slot screens that your mind is connecting into a continuous experience.[00:23:12] Metacognition vs Stochasticity[00:23:12] Sam Schillace: And that's kind of the same thing that's going on with these models. Like they're all the prompts are disconnected no matter what. Which means you're putting a lot of weight on memory, right? This is the thing we talked about. You're like, you're putting a lot of weight on precision and recall of your memory system.[00:23:27] Sam Schillace: And so like, and it turns out like, because the models are stochastic, they're kind of random. They'll make stuff up if things are missing. If you're naive about your, your memory system, you'll get lots of like accumulated similar memories that will kind of clog the system, things like that. So there's lots of ways in which like, Memory is hard to manage well, and, and, and that's okay.[00:23:47] Sam Schillace: But what happens is when you're doing plans and you're doing these longer running things that you're talking about, that second level, the metacognition is very vulnerable to that stochastic noise, which is like, I totally want to put this on a bumper sticker that like metacognition is susceptible to stochasticity would be like the great bumper sticker.[00:24:07] Sam Schillace: So what, these things are very vulnerable to feedback loops when they're trying to do autonomy, and they're very vulnerable to getting lost. So we've had these, like, multi agent Autonomous agent things get kind of stuck on like complimenting each other, or they'll get stuck on being quote unquote frustrated and they'll go on strike.[00:24:22] Sam Schillace: Like there's all kinds of weird like feedback loops you get into. So what we've learned to answer your question of how you put all this stuff together is You have to, the model's good at thinking, but it's not good at planning. So you do planning in code. So you have to describe the larger process of what you're doing in code somehow.[00:24:38] Sam Schillace: So semantic intent or whatever. And then you let the model kind of fill in the pieces.[00:24:43] Generating Synthetic Textbooks[00:24:43] Sam Schillace: I'll give a less abstract like example. It's a little bit of an old example. I did this like last year, but at one point I wanted to see if I could generate textbooks. And so I wrote this thing called the textbook factory.[00:24:53] Sam Schillace: And it's, it's tiny. It's like a Jupyter notebook with like. You know, 200 lines of Python and like six very short prompts, but what you basically give it a sentence. And it like pulls out the topic and the level of, of, from that sentence, so you, like, I would like fifth grade reading. I would like eighth grade English.[00:25:11] Sam Schillace: His English ninth grade, US history, whatever. That by the way, all, all by itself, like would've been an almost impossible job like three years ago. Isn't, it's like totally amazing like that by itself. Just parsing an arbitrary natural language sentence to get these two pieces of information out is like almost trivial now.[00:25:27] Sam Schillace: Which is amazing. So it takes that and it just like makes like a thousand calls to the API and it goes and builds a full year textbook, like decides what the curriculum is with one of the prompts. It breaks it into chapters. It writes all the lessons and lesson plans and like builds a teacher's guide with all the answers to all the questions.[00:25:42] Sam Schillace: It builds a table of contents, like all that stuff. It's super reliable. You always get a textbook. It's super brittle. You never get a cookbook or a novel like but like you could kind of define that domain pretty care, like I can describe. The metacognition, the high level plan for how do you write a textbook, right?[00:25:59] Sam Schillace: You like decide the curriculum and then you write all the chapters and you write the teacher's guide and you write the table content, like you can, you can describe that out pretty well. And so having that like code exoskeleton wrapped around the model is really helpful, like it keeps the model from drifting off and then you don't have as many of these vulnerabilities around memory that you would normally have.[00:26:19] Sam Schillace: So like, that's kind of, I think where the syntax and semantics comes together right now.[00:26:24] Trade leverage for precision; use interaction to mitigate[00:26:24] Sam Schillace: And then I think the question for all of us is. How do you get more leverage out of that? Right? So one of the things that I don't love about virtually everything anyone's built for the last year and a half is people are holding the hands of the model on everything.[00:26:37] Sam Schillace: Like the leverage is very low, right? You can't turn. These things loose to do anything really interesting for very long. You can kind of, and the places where people are getting more work out per unit of work in are usually where somebody has done exactly what I just described. They've kind of figured out what the pattern of the problem is in enough of a way that they can write some code for it.[00:26:59] Sam Schillace: And then that that like, so I've seen like sales support stuff. I've seen like code base tuning stuff of like, there's lots of things that people are doing where like, you can get a lot of value in some relatively well defined domain using a little bit of the model's ability to think for you and a little, and a little bit of code.[00:27:18] Code is for syntax and process; models are for semantics and intent.[00:27:18] Sam Schillace: And then I think the next wave is like, okay, do we do stuff like domain specific languages to like make the planning capabilities better? Do we like start to build? More sophisticated primitives. We're starting to think about and talk about like power automate and a bunch of stuff inside of Microsoft that we're going to wrap in these like building blocks.[00:27:34] Sam Schillace: So the models have these chunks of reliable functionality that they can invoke as part of these plans, right? Because you don't want like, if you're going to ask the model to go do something and the output's going to be a hundred thousand lines of code, if it's got to generate that code every time, the randomness, the stochasticity is like going to make that basically not reliable.[00:27:54] Sam Schillace: You want it to generate it like a 10 or 20 line high level semantic plan for this thing that gets handed to some markup executor that runs it and that invokes that API, that 100, 000 lines of code behind it, API call. And like, that's a really nice robust system for now. And then as the models get smarter as new models emerge, then we get better plans, we get more sophistication.[00:28:17] Sam Schillace: In terms of what they can choose, things like that. Right. So I think like that feels like that's probably the path forward for a little while, at least, like there was, there was a lot there. I, sorry, like I've been thinking, you can tell I've been thinking about it a lot. Like this is kind of all I think about is like, how do you build.[00:28:31] Sam Schillace: Really high value stuff out of this. And where do we go? Yeah. The, the role where[00:28:35] swyx: we are. Yeah. The intermixing of code and, and LMS is, is a lot of the role of the AI engineer. And I, I, I think in a very real way, you were one of the first to, because obviously you had early access. Honestly, I'm surprised.[00:28:46] Hands on AI Leadership[00:28:46] swyx: How are you so hands on? How do you choose to, to dedicate your time? How do you advise other tech leaders? Right. You know, you, you are. You have people working for you, you could not be hands on, but you seem to be hands on. What's the allocation that people should have, especially if they're senior tech[00:29:03] Sam Schillace: leaders?[00:29:04] Sam Schillace: It's mostly just fun. Like, I'm a maker, and I like to build stuff. I'm a little bit idiosyncratic. I I've got ADHD, and so I won't build anything. I won't work on anything I'm bored with. So I have no discipline. If I'm not actually interested in the thing, I can't just, like, do it, force myself to do it.[00:29:17] Sam Schillace: But, I mean, if you're not interested in what's going on right now in the industry, like, go find a different industry, honestly. Like, I seriously, like, this is, I, well, it's funny, like, I don't mean to be snarky, but, like, I was at a dinner, like, a, I don't know, six months ago or something, And I was sitting next to a CTO of a large, I won't name the corporation because it would name the person, but I was sitting next to the CTO of a very large Japanese technical company, and he was like, like, nothing has been interesting since the internet, and this is interesting now, like, this is fun again.[00:29:46] Sam Schillace: And I'm like, yeah, totally, like this is like, the most interesting thing that's happened in 35 years of my career, like, we can play with semantics and natural language, and we can have these things that are like sort of active, can kind of be independent in certain ways and can do stuff for us and can like, reach all of these interesting problems.[00:30:02] Sam Schillace: So like that's part of it of it's just kind of fun to, to do stuff and to build stuff. I, I just can't, can't resist. I'm not crazy hands-on, like, I have an eng like my engineering team's listening right now. They're like probably laughing 'cause they, I never, I, I don't really touch code directly 'cause I'm so obsessive.[00:30:17] Sam Schillace: I told them like, if I start writing code, that's all I'm gonna do. And it's probably better if I stay a little bit high level and like, think about. I've got a really great couple of engineers, a bunch of engineers underneath me, a bunch of designers underneath me that are really good folks that we just bounce ideas off of back and forth and it's just really fun.[00:30:35] Sam Schillace: That's the role I came to Microsoft to do, really, was to just kind of bring some energy around innovation, some energy around consumer, We didn't know that this was coming when I joined. I joined like eight months before it hit us, but I think Kevin might've had an idea it was coming. And and then when it hit, I just kind of dove in with both feet cause it's just so much fun to do.[00:30:55] Sam Schillace: Just to tie it back a little bit to the, the Google Docs stuff. When we did rightly originally the world it's not like I built rightly in jQuery or anything. Like I built that thing on bare metal back before there were decent JavaScript VMs.[00:31:10] Sam Schillace: I was just telling somebody today, like you were rate limited. So like just computing the diff when you type something like doing the string diff, I had to write like a binary search on each end of the string diff because like you didn't have enough iterations of a for loop to search character by character.[00:31:24] Sam Schillace: I mean, like that's how rough it was none of the browsers implemented stuff directly, whatever. It's like, just really messy. And like, that's. Like, as somebody who's been doing this for a long time, like, that's the place where you want to engage, right? If things are easy, and it's easy to go do something, it's too late.[00:31:42] Sam Schillace: Even if it's not too late, it's going to be crowded, but like the right time to do something new and disruptive and technical is, first of all, still when it's controversial, but second of all, when you have this, like, you can see the future, you ask this, like, what if question, and you can see where it's going, But you have this, like, pit in your stomach as an engineer as to, like, how crappy this is going to be to do.[00:32:04] Sam Schillace: Like, that's really the right moment to engage with stuff. We're just like, this is going to suck, it's going to be messy, I don't know what the path is, I'm going to get sticks and thorns in my hair, like I, I, it's going to have false starts, and I don't really, I'm going to This is why those skeletchae laws are kind of funny, because, like, I, I, like You know, I wrote them down at one point because they were like my best guess, but I'm like half of these are probably wrong, and I think they've all held up pretty well, but I'm just like guessing along with everybody else, we're just trying to figure this thing out still, right, and like, and I think the only way to do that is to just engage with it.[00:32:34] Sam Schillace: You just have to like, build stuff. If you're, I can't tell you the number of execs I've talked to who have opinions about AI and have not sat down with anything for more than 10 minutes to like actually try to get anything done. You know, it's just like, it's incomprehensible to me that you can watch this stuff through the lens of like the press and forgive me, podcasts and feel like you actually know what you're talking about.[00:32:59] Sam Schillace: Like, you have to like build stuff. Like, break your nose on stuff and like figure out what doesn't work.[00:33:04] swyx: Yeah, I mean, I view us as a starting point, as a way for people to get exposure on what we're doing. They should be looking at, and they still have to do the work as do we. Yeah, I'll basically endorse, like, I think most of the laws.[00:33:18] Multimodality vs "Text is the universal wire protocol"[00:33:18] swyx: I think the one I question the most now is text is the universal wire protocol. There was a very popular article, a text that used a universal interface by Rune who now works at OpenAI. And I, actually, we just, we just dropped a podcast with David Luan, who's CEO of Adept now, but he was VP of Eng, and he pitched Kevin Scott for the original Microsoft investment in OpenAI.[00:33:40] swyx: Where he's basically pivoting to or just betting very hard on multimodality. I think that's something that we don't really position very well. I think this year, we're trying to all figure it out. I don't know if you have an updated perspective on multi modal models how that affects agents[00:33:54] Sam Schillace: or not.[00:33:55] Sam Schillace: Yeah, I mean, I think the multi I think multi modality is really important. And I, I think it's only going to get better from here. For sure. Yeah, the text is the universal wire protocol. You're probably right. Like, I don't know that I would defend that one entirely. Note that it doesn't say English, right?[00:34:09] Sam Schillace: Like it's, it's not, that's even natural language. Like there's stuff like Steve Luko, who's the guy who created TypeScript, created TypeChat, right? Which is this like way to get LLMs to be very precise and return syntax and correct JavaScript. So like, I, yeah, I think like multimodality, like, I think part of the challenge with it is like, it's a little harder to access.[00:34:30] Sam Schillace: Programatically still like I think you know and I do think like, You know like when when like dahly and stuff started to come Out I was like, oh photoshop's in trouble cuz like, you know I'm just gonna like describe images And you don't need photos of Photoshop anymore Which hasn't played out that way like they're actually like adding a bunch of tools who look like you want to be able to you know for multimodality be really like super super charged you need to be able to do stuff like Descriptively, like, okay, find the dog in this picture and mask around it.[00:34:58] Sam Schillace: Okay, now make it larger and whatever. You need to be able to interact with stuff textually, which we're starting to be able to do. Like, you can do some of that stuff. But there's probably a whole bunch of new capabilities that are going to come out that are going to make it more interesting.[00:35:11] Sam Schillace: So, I don't know, like, I suspect we're going to wind up looking kind of like Unix at the end of the day, where, like, there's pipes and, like, Stuff goes over pipes, and some of the pipes are byte character pipes, and some of them are byte digital or whatever like binary pipes, and that's going to be compatible with a lot of the systems we have out there, so like, that's probably still And I think there's a lot to be gotten from, from text as a language, but I suspect you're right.[00:35:37] Sam Schillace: Like that particular law is not going to hold up super well. But we didn't have multimodal going when I wrote it. I'll take one out as well.[00:35:46] Azure OpenAI vs Microsoft Research vs Microsoft AI Division[00:35:46] swyx: I know. Yeah, I mean, the innovations that keep coming out of Microsoft. You mentioned multi agent. I think you're talking about autogen.[00:35:52] swyx: But there's always research coming out of MSR. Yeah. PHY1, PHY2. Yeah, there's a bunch of[00:35:57] Sam Schillace: stuff. Yeah.[00:35:59] swyx: What should, how should the outsider or the AI engineer just as a sort of final word, like, How should they view the Microsoft portfolio things? I know you're not here to be a salesman, but What, how do you explain You know, Microsoft's AI[00:36:12] Sam Schillace: work to people.[00:36:13] Sam Schillace: There's a lot of stuff going on. Like, first of all, like, I should, I'll be a little tiny bit of a salesman for, like, two seconds and just point out that, like, one of the things we have is the Microsoft for Startups Founders Hub. So, like, you can get, like, Azure credits and stuff from us. Like, up to, like, 150 grand, I think, over four years.[00:36:29] Sam Schillace: So, like, it's actually pretty easy to get. Credit you can start, I 500 bucks to start or something with very little other than just an idea. So like there's, that's pretty cool. Like, I like Microsoft is very much all in on AI at, at many levels. And so like that, you mentioned, you mentioned Autogen, like, So I sit in the office of the CTO, Microsoft Research sits under him, under the office of the CTO as well.[00:36:51] Sam Schillace: So the Autogen group came out of somebody in MSR, like in that group. So like there's sort of. The spectrum of very researchy things going on in research, where we're doing things like Phi, which is the small language model efficiency exploration that's really, really interesting. Lots of very technical folks there that are building different kinds of models.[00:37:10] Sam Schillace: And then there's like, groups like my group that are kind of a little bit in the middle that straddle product and, and, and research and kind of have a foot in both worlds and are trying to kind of be a bridge into the product world. And then there's like a whole bunch of stuff on the product side of things.[00:37:23] Sam Schillace: So there's. All the Azure OpenAI stuff, and then there's all the stuff that's in Office and Windows. And I, so I think, like, the way, I don't know, the way to think about Microsoft is we're just powering AI at every level we can, and making it as accessible as we can to both end users and developers.[00:37:42] Sam Schillace: There's this really nice research arm at one end of that spectrum that's really driving the cutting edge. The fee stuff is really amazing. It broke the chinchella curves. Right, like we didn't, that's the textbooks are all you need paper, and it's still kind of controversial, but like that was really a surprising result that came out of MSR.[00:37:58] Sam Schillace: And so like I think Microsoft is both being a thought leader on one end, on the other end with all the Azure OpenAI, all the Azure tooling that we have, like very much a developer centric, kind of the tinkerer's paradise that Microsoft always was. It's like a great place to come and consume all these things.[00:38:14] Sam Schillace: There's really amazing stuff ideas that we've had, like these very rich, long running, rag based chatbots that we didn't talk about that are like now possible to just go build with Azure AI Studio for yourself. You can build and deploy like a chatbot that's trained on your data specifically, like very easily and things like that.[00:38:31] Sam Schillace: So like there's that end of things. And then there's all this stuff that's in Office, where like, you could just like use the copilots both in Bing, but also just like daily your daily work. So like, it's just kind of everywhere at this point, like everyone in the company thinks about it all the time.[00:38:43] Sam Schillace: There's like no single answer to that question. That was way more salesy than I thought I was capable of, but like, that is actually the genuine truth. Like, it is all the time, it is all levels, it is all the way from really pragmatic, approachable stuff for somebody starting out who doesn't know things, all the way to like Absolutely cutting edge research, silicon, models, AI for science, like, we didn't talk about any of the AI for science stuff, I've seen magical stuff coming out of the research group on that topic, like just crazy cool stuff that's coming, so.[00:39:13] Sam Schillace: You've[00:39:14] swyx: called this since you joined Microsoft. I point listeners to the podcast that you did in 2022, pre ChatGBT with Kevin Scott. And yeah, you've been saying this from the beginning. So this is not a new line of Talk track for you, like you've, you, you've been a genuine believer for a long time.[00:39:28] swyx: And,[00:39:28] Sam Schillace: and just to be clear, like I haven't been at Microsoft that long. I've only been here for like two, a little over two years and you know, it's a little bit weird for me 'cause for a lot of my career they were the competitor and the enemy and you know, it's kind of funny to be here, but like it's really remarkable.[00:39:40] On Satya[00:39:40] Sam Schillace: It's going on. I really, really like Satya. I've met a, met and worked with a bunch of big tech CEOs and I think he's a genuinely awesome person and he's fun to work with and has a really great. vision. So like, and I obviously really like Kevin, we've been friends for a long time. So it's a cool place.[00:39:56] Sam Schillace: I think there's a lot of interesting stuff. We[00:39:57] swyx: have some awareness Satya is a listener. So obviously he's super welcome on the pod anytime. You can just drop in a good word for us.[00:40:05] Sam Schillace: He's fun to talk to. It's interesting because like CEOs can be lots of different personalities, but he is you were asking me about how I'm like, so hands on and engaged.[00:40:14] Sam Schillace: I'm amazed at how hands on and engaged he can be given the scale of his job. Like, he's super, super engaged with stuff, super in the details, understands a lot of the stuff that's going on. And the science side of things, as well as the product and the business side, I mean, it's really remarkable. I don't say that, like, because he's listening or because I'm trying to pump the company, like, I'm, like, genuinely really, really impressed with, like, how, what he's, like, I look at him, I'm like, I love this stuff, and I spend all my time thinking about it, and I could not do what he's doing.[00:40:42] Sam Schillace: Like, it's just incredible how much you can get[00:40:43] Ben Dunphy: into his head.[00:40:44] Sam at AI Leadership Track[00:40:44] Ben Dunphy: Sam, it's been an absolute pleasure to hear from you here, hear the war stories. So thank you so much for coming on. Quick question though you're here on the podcast as the presenting sponsor for the AI Engineer World's Fair, will you be taking the stage there, or are we going to defer that to Satya?[00:41:01] Ben Dunphy: And I'm happy[00:41:02] Sam Schillace: to talk to folks. I'm happy to be there. It's always fun to like I, I like talking to people more than talking at people. So I don't love giving keynotes. I love giving Q and A's and like engaging with engineers and like. I really am at heart just a builder and an engineer, and like, that's what I'm happiest doing, like being creative and like building things and figuring stuff out.[00:41:22] Sam Schillace: That would be really fun to do, and I'll probably go just to like, hang out with people and hear what they're working on and working about.[00:41:28] swyx: The AI leadership track is just AI leaders, and then it's closed doors, so you know, more sort of an unconference style where people just talk[00:41:34] Sam Schillace: about their issues.[00:41:35] Sam Schillace: Yeah, that would be, that's much more fun. That's really, because we are really all wrestling with this, trying to figure out what it means. Right. So I don't think anyone I, the reason I have the Scalache laws kind of give me the willies a little bit is like, I, I was joking that we should just call them the Scalache best guesses, because like, I don't want people to think that that's like some iron law.[00:41:52] Sam Schillace: We're all trying to figure this stuff out. Right. Like some of it's right. Some it's not right. It's going to be messy. We'll have false starts, but yeah, we're all working it out. So that's the fun conversation. All[00:42:02] Ben Dunphy: right. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on.[00:42:05] Final Plug for Tickets & CFP[00:42:05] Ben Dunphy: For those of you listening, interested in attending AI Engineer World's Fair, you can purchase your tickets today.[00:42:11] Ben Dunphy: Learn more about the event at ai. engineer. You can purchase even group discounts. If you purchase four more tickets, use the code GROUP, and one of those four tickets will be free. If you want to speak at the event CFP closes April 8th, so check out the link at ai. engineer, send us your proposals for talks, workshops, or discussion groups.[00:42:33] Ben Dunphy: So if you want to come to THE event of the year for AI engineers, the technical event of the year for AI engineers this is at June 25, 26, and 27 in San Francisco. That's it! Get full access to Latent Space at www.latent.space/subscribe

Good morning!People are buying Kirkland brand golf clubs at Costco and selling them for double/triple the price!Angelo in Oakley won Sarah McLachlan concert tickets!The Brighter Side.Carolyn is looking for advice on how to turn off a busy mind at night when trying to sleep.Cort had an "awkward" moment with his daughter yesterday in the Marina District.December 11th is Breakup Day!Bob won KOOZA tickets!Terri weighs in on people flipping merch.

The stage is set, the mic is on, and the cue is yours. In this episode, stand-up comic and voice actor Tom Sawyer shares his golden nuggets for aspiring voice talents hoping to benefit from the power of comedy. From the importance of having fun in the booth to taking a well-deserved break, and the power of belief in oneself, Tom is a reservoir of invaluable insights. We talk about standing out in a sea of talents, catching the ears of the right casting person, and the art of continuous learning. But remember, feedback is the breakfast of champions, and as Tom says, it's all about enhancing your performance. Get ready, it's showtime! About Tom   Tom Sawyer ran lengendary San Francisco comedy club, Cobb's for over 30 years. After stepping away from the comedy business, Tom was encouraged to explore voice acting by after famed comedian and voice actor Carlos Alazraqui (Rocco's Modern World, the Taco Bell Chihuahua) who knew Tom was an excellent celebrity impersonator. Tom signed with JE Talent in San Francisco and Aperture Talent in Los Angeles in 2017, and the rest is history. https://kitcaster.com/tom-sawyer/ 0:00:01 - Announcer It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss, a V-O boss. Now let's welcome your host, Ann Gangusa.  0:00:20 - Anne Hey everyone, welcome to the V-O Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza and today I am super excited to be here with very special guest actor, comedian, entrepreneur oh my God, the list goes on Tom Sawyer. Tom ran the legendary San Francisco Comedy Club Cubs for over 30 years booking legendary greats, and this list just goes on and on, but I'll give you just a few of them Jerry Seinfeld, dana Carvey, Bob Saget, Jim Carrey, Rita Rudner, Joe Rogan, Sarah Silverman and the list just goes on. He stayed on as a booker until 2012 and then ultimately stepped away from the comedy business. After that, he was encouraged to explore voice acting by famed comedian and voice actor Carlos Ellsrocki, a good friend of his. He signed on with JE Talent in San Francisco and Aperture Talent in LA in 2017, and the rest, they say, is history.  But boy, we've got a lot of history I'd like to talk to you about, tom. Thank you so much for joining us and welcome. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. So, gosh, there's so many things I want to start with. I mean the first tell. You have such a large history of comedy, so, of course, I'm sure a very common question you get asked is were you a funny kid, or have you always loved comedy? What is it that drew you to comedy?  0:01:44 - Tom Well, yeah, I was the kid in the back of the class making all the other kids laugh, so that was where I started and I always did impressions. So when I was a kid I was doing Don Adams from Get Smart and Ed Sullivan and Richard Nixon and you know, it's probably a little weird seeing an eight-year-old doing Richard Nixon but that's what I was doing. When I was very young I realized I could do voices and never stopped and that's what kind of led me to voiceover when I got out of the comedy club business.  0:02:15 - Anne But boy, there was a long history of being in the comedy business. I label you as entrepreneur 20 times over because I think just following that passion of yours and then ultimately opening up a club that literally was just famed and just housing some of the comedy greats. Tell me a little bit about that history. I mean, that is just so, so fun and impressive.  0:02:36 - Tom Yeah, actually, I went to San Francisco to become a stand-up comic and there were all these clubs, the Punchline and the Holy City Zoo and the other cafe. They were very packed all the time and getting stage time there was next to impossible. Or you'd get on at one o'clock in the morning in front of a very tired, very small, very drunk audience. And then there was this little.  0:02:55 - Anne Sometimes that helps, I'm not sure Mostly doesn't, oh okay.  0:03:00 - Tom But there was this little club in the Marina District in San Francisco called Cobb's Pub and they were trying to do comedy there and there was no audience, but there was stage time. You could get on stage there. In fact, sometimes you couldn't get off stage because there was no one there to take over, so you had to stretch, stretch and that was terrifying sometimes. Especially if you're the third or fourth comic going, hey, where are you from? And the audience goes we all know where we're from, so stop asking.  0:03:29 - Anne That's so funny. I just wanted to say that a lot of my actor friends I feel like being on that comedy stage is like a rite of passage almost, and it's probably I would think one of the toughest things to do is to stand on stage like that and try to make people laugh. I mean, that's just to me it's comedy without a net. Yeah, exactly.  0:03:48 - Tom And the thing is it's like you're stuck there, literally. You have an allotted time that you have to perform and they give you 10 minutes. You have to do 10 minutes, doesn't matter if it's horrible right from the word jump, you're on stage for those 10 minutes. That's the time you have to do and that's one of the things you learn right away is like if you get on stage early.  you're not going to get back on stage. So you have to go through the rite of passage of bombing, and I've seen comics bomb from Paula Poundstone, kevin Meany, kevin Nealon, the list goes on and on. Every comic has bombed. But even later on you get in front of an audience that just doesn't dig you.  0:04:27 - Anne And again, nowhere to go. You can't run off the stage.  0:04:31 - Tom You're mean, I get that.  0:04:38 - Anne And it's funny because I literally I just went to a comedy club a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking about that, like what do you do? I mean, they are there until the next comedian is called on stage. And it feels interesting as being a part of the audience, because a lot of times I think, as the audience, you are part of maybe not part of the act, but it's very interactive, it's very back and forth and engaging because, of course, you're trying to make us laugh.  0:05:02 - Tom Yeah, you have to communicate to the audience without really engaging the audience, because you're the boss on stage, you're kind of like the crowd master and you're crowd control and entertainment at the same time. And because comedy, some people feel like, oh, I'm going to be as funny as the comic.  0:05:22 - Anne And that's when things get really sideways.  0:05:24 - Tom You're there to be entertained. Sit back, relax and leave the talking or the driving to the person with the microphone.  So you got some stage time on Cobbs and and then I realized that I just kept seeing these shows that weren't very good. The guy who was booking the club at the time wasn't doing a great job, and I was a big fan of stand up as well. So I started thinking about what I would do instead, and then I started telling the owner at the time first owner of Cobbs. I was telling him you know, here's what I would do differently, and then I could tell him at the beginning of the show how the show was going to fail. And then he was started realizing that everything I was saying was happening and he went what do I get to lose? We're doing horrible business. And so he gave me the job of booking and from there I started getting the people I really, really like to perform and it started going great and we went from being like about 20% capacity to 90% capacity in about a year.  0:06:23 - Anne So let me ask you a question that, to me, is very interesting how do you get, at the time, the talents that you booked? I mean, they were big names. Were they big names then? And how did you get them to book? I mean, that's a skill, right? It's something that we do in our businesses every day, right? We've got to try to get clients to like us and to work with us. So how did you do that? Did you have a secret?  0:06:42 - Tom Yeah, my secret was I paid really well.  0:06:45 - Anne Okay, okay, that's a good piece.  0:06:48 - Tom My biggest competition, which was twice the size of our club. We were out paying that Because we decided that the most important thing was getting butts in the chairs and the only way to do that was having acts that actually brought an audience. So the only way to do that was to offer these guys more of an opportunity to make more money. So we would give them a percentage of the door and say, hey, the more people come to see you, the more you're gonna make. And because of that we had people that would call up and go, hey, I'm gonna be on the Tonight Show in six weeks with Johnny Carson, do you have anything open? And I would move stuff around and get them in there and then I would get a Tonight Show plug or a Letterman plug or Arsenio Hall. At the time and that was kind of my thing was I'm gonna pay everybody. Really well, so everybody could. Percentage of the door.  In the early days before all the big agencies came in, sure, and remember this was at a time where there were just like a couple agencies doing personal appearances for comedians. Comedians were pretty much on their own. They were doing their business themselves. So if I wanted Bob Sagan, I'd call Bob Sagan, so I get his number from another comic and everybody was kind of looking for each other and I would bring one comic in. They'd go, hey, you should book these guys. And I go, okay, great, and call them up. And they'd go, right, when can you give them me a date? And I'd give them a date. Plus, we flew people up and we put them up in the hotels. So we didn't personally make a ton of money. That wasn't my thing. My thing was having the best shows I could possibly have and making a name right.  And making a name for the club?  0:08:24 - Anne Absolutely, and that's interesting because, again, I like to talk about the entrepreneurial business side of what we do as creatives and freelancers, and there's a lot of thinking outside the box and also recognizing the value of the talent, that if you wanna put out great work, then you wanna hire a talent that's amazing and great and pay them fairly and absolutely. And so talk to me a little bit about the networking aspect. I mean, the cash is a good draw, but you also had to communicate effectively, I would say, to really book these talent.  0:08:58 - Tom Well, the thing that separated me from everybody else, besides being generous with the money that was brought in, was that I knew what they were going through, no matter what it was going on on stage. If they were dealing with a heckler, I'd gone through that as a comedian. If they were bombing, I knew that pain, so I could empathize with them, I could be their counselor, I could give them advice. I looked at it like I wasn't really a good comedian, and mainly that was because I wasn't true to who I am personally. So my mantra after that was be yourself.  0:09:32 - Anne I love that.  0:09:33 - Tom Yeah, that's who I wasn't. I was trying to fit in and have everybody like me and that really affected the quality of my stand up because I wasn't being true to me. So that was my mantra to everybody be yourself. Because nobody can take that away from you.  0:09:49 - Anne That's so interesting because I never ventured into comedy myself. However, I find that people find me the most funny when I am being my dorky self and I'm making mistakes and I'm just being oops, sorry, and I think in voiceover as well. I wanna talk more about that. I think it's all about being authentic and being yourself and that's really, I think, what connects you to people and engages you to people and endears you to people.  0:10:14 - Tom Yeah, I think it's really important when you get a job, and especially if it's somebody you want to get more bookings from play around, have fun. I mean, I booked a video game and the first thing we did we went through several of the lines I had to do and then we went through all those and I just did just the lines, basically no acting or anything like that and they went. Yep, that's about it. I went great, thank you.  0:10:33 - Anne Love it, love it, bye, bye.  0:10:35 - Tom So everybody started laughing. It loosens everybody up and that's really it's just. Don't be a pain on the ass. Realize that you're always learning. They're always learning. Everybody's a professional too, and so be courteous and nice and smart and be entertaining. You are the talent, so show some talent as a professional as well.  0:10:53 - Anne Show some talent. I love that. So talk about in the transition while booking talent. So you did that for a very long time, I mean 30 years, and so, wow, I mean, was there a point? I mean, were you just so busy for 30 years Did you think about voiceover? Was that a thought in your head or something that you would do, or you just were completely. You loved running the club and booking talent.  0:11:18 - Tom Prior to moving to San Francisco, I lived in Florida, lived in Sarasota, Florida, and I did a lot of theater there.  That's why, I fell in love with theater and acting. You know, I always thought like, oh, stand up might be a good gateway to getting into acting, but then I got into the business end of it. So I didn't really think about it until I got out and I didn't know what I was gonna do. And I was talking to Carlos and he said dude, you do so many voices and stuff. You'd be great at voice acting.  Cause I've always done impressions, never stopped doing impressions. In fact I would teach other people like Kevin Pollack or something, if they had an oppression and they couldn't figure it quite out. They were doing it but they weren't quite right. We'd kind of jam and help them get there, or they would help me get there and we'd all do our really weird outside the box impersonations. You'd have to spend five minutes explaining who that guy is Right right right.  0:12:07 - Anne So you can't do that one.  0:12:09 - Tom But for comics, we love doing those, especially impersonators, impressionists, we love doing those for other impersonators. It was kind of like our jazz moment, you know, where you get to jam behind the scenes with another musician.  0:12:20 - Anne Absolutely.  0:12:21 - Tom So Frank Calliendo, I had the club, and Dana Carvey, of course, was the master of the not perfect impression, but getting the perfect funny it didn't matter, that's what his genius is. Bye, you know, is finding the perfect funny to any voice. And then Tom Kenny played. The club started at Cobbs as well Again, the guy who did so many crazy voices. It was another inspiration for me to move there, and every once in a while I talked to him, cause I'll get a audition for something that I know is directing or in, so I go heads up and he's going dude.  I have nothing to do with casting, you know sometimes they cast people and I'm scratching my head. So yeah, but I'll put in a good word for you.  0:12:58 - Anne So Well, hey again, networking totally helps. Now comedy skill. I think comedy is a skill and art form. What are your thoughts on that?  0:13:07 - Tom I mean cause, oh, absolutely.  0:13:08 - Anne Yeah, it's not something that I can go on a stage and execute.  0:13:11 - Tom Yeah, it's like anything else I personally believe.  my philosophy is we all have a gift somewhere along the line. We might not be in a position ever to know what that gift is, but we all have a gift and sometimes there are people out there have more than a couple fair, but there's also people who just don't ever find theirs. And I think that the idea is you know to try to discover who you are and your strengths, weaknesses. Stay away from those weaknesses and hurdle towards your strengths, you know, and don't get locked up into one thing to always be on the road to discovery.  0:13:42 - Anne I guess I want to ask you first of all about once you got into voice acting and then was it like you were always wanting to book a certain genre because you've had lots of characters inside of you that wanted to come out? Or did you find any of the genres outside of character Interesting, because I'm a believer that you're a character in just about everything you do, even if you're doing e-learning.  0:14:05 - Tom Yeah, I always try to find a person, even when it's just one of those hey, you're a dad, or hey, you're a regular guy. Or I just had an audition yesterday where you're just a regular father, you know it's regular. But the line said something else, you know. So I gave one as what they were saying and then one. That's what I felt the lines were doing. It was a subtle difference, but it was a difference that maybe whoever put this together wants to see. If somebody figured it out, or they didn't know that's where they were going and they don't know. Sometimes they don't even know until they hear it.  So give them what you think they want, and then give them what they say they want.  0:14:39 - Anne So interesting. I guess I would talk to you then about writing right, especially now that you've transitioned in voice acting and you're given a script right, or you're given an audition and finding the humor. Sometimes there's subtleties in that humor, sometimes it's obvious. Are there telltale signs to look out for? And then, once you do see it, is there a specific way that you feel it should be performed? Should it be performed in the obvious way? Or maybe, if you wanna capture the ear of the casting director, you do something different?  0:15:08 - Tom Well, I think you know what you do with a couple takes is you do the one that's on the page and then you do the one that where you think they go or where you can go with it to show what you can bring to the party. I always like to find the humor in something, especially if it says it's humorous, you know, and then play around with it and add a little bit, do a little improv with it, find a little spontaneity into there, or sometimes I'll even rewrite a line, cause I think it's kind of like flat, so I'll make it a little funnier. A punchier.  0:15:36 - Anne Okay, now that gives me a segue into a question In terms of with the script, in terms of improv right For an audition, are you improving in the audition and or improving the line, and at what point do you feel that people may go too far if you're completely rewriting, or do you think that's offensive maybe?  0:15:54 - Tom I think you have to be pretty subtle in rewriting. I think you do run the risk of people going why do I bother sending you a script? Cause you're adding all this stuff to it. So you pick and choose your moments. You know I've done that before, I've added jokes. But I'll listen to it again and go okay, that's a little too much. Plus, I want to have them. I don't want the person thinking after the third one, is he gonna go back to the script or what you know. So I wanna pick and choose my moments and make sure that I think of the funniest, the ones that have the most oomph. You want them to land, and so era on the side of too few than too many.  0:16:33 - Anne Let's talk about character development for you, especially because you're an impressionist. So how can you take, let's say, and you don't necessarily wanna have a character that's just after a particular person, but you wanna develop it into your own character. Is there a formula or a process for that, in terms of developing new characters?  0:16:51 - Tom Well, I have a book of all the impersonations I do, well, a book with the impersonations I do. And then I have like one that's like the ones I do pretty right on, and the ones I do that are just kind of soft. I don't really have it down, but that's great because it's a character.  0:17:07 - Anne Do you have a number for that? Somebody wants to have how many characters in their arsenal, how many to build off of.  0:17:13 - Tom Every day that I can figure out how to do a different celebrity or something like that. I write it down in the book Cause it comes to you sometimes. I mean, when I figured out how to do Robin Williams, it just was an accident. It's one of those things where you find a word and all of a sudden. Then you find a place in your throat and you're doing it and you can't stop.  0:17:32 - Anne It's crazy so it just never stops. I love it, I love it.  0:17:37 - Tom So one day I did Robin for Robin and that didn't go so well, apparently I didn't know he doesn't like his voice, apparently being impersonated. You didn't like that. No, it's really a very awkward Cause. I thought it'd be a lot of fun.  0:17:50 - Anne Yeah, and that's interesting because I'm curious about that. You know, celebrities like their voices impersonated, or now we've got a whole another, a whole another digital thing to be thinking about, when voices might be impersonated or turned into right With synthetic voices. But that might be another podcast.  0:18:10 - Tom That's a little scary.  0:18:11 - Anne That's a scary one, absolutely.  0:18:13 - Tom The thing about it is is like the flaws, like, let's say, go back to Dana Carvey, cause again there aren't many that he does right on, he'll leave me be the first to admit it. He's not like somebody like Frank Caliendo, who's just like amazing. He's verbatim, you can hear the voice. He's somebody who can do a sound alike. Dana could never do a sound alike, but he gets people's caricature down. That's the thing is it's like, and that's kind of what makes it funny is the imperfections is going up, finding those words.  I just, you know, I used to do Bruce Stern and a lot of people kind of forgot who he was, and then one day I just was doing it for somebody to just start laughing Cause they didn't even remember who that Bruce Stern was. But it's just his voice is funny, you know, cause he has a kind of voice like that and it's very inquisitive either. Everything goes up at the end Doesn't make a darn gosh darn bit of difference, and not sometimes he gets crazy. But and so you find those little imperfections actually make a character and make it really funny. That's what I like to do. You know, I did a animation pilot and it was like a hippie character and I was going through a bunch of voices with a writer cause they booked me and they didn't feel like they wanted to do something different with it. They said what can you do? And I was going through my book and I started doing Nick Nolte and they loved it and then you ended up going with that over what they originally had, with me doing it.  0:19:37 - Anne So I love how you have a book with everything written down. Now, do you also have audio files that go along with that, so that you can help yourself get into words?  0:19:45 - Tom Yeah, I have one where it's all my impressions, so that way I can go back. And how do I do that? One Cause I don't practice them all the time. Cause.  0:19:54 - Anne I have life.  0:19:55 - Tom So, and I don't want to be walking around talking to myself, of course, of course. Man, it's got so many voices.  0:20:00 - Anne So are you writing down then the name and then you write down the qualities of the characteristics or how you get into it. Is it a kick phrase? Maybe that gets you into the character.  0:20:10 - Tom Well, there's certain words, for example, you know, I came up with for Christopher Walk and I came up with the word pantaloon being the perfect Christopher Walken word. I'm thinking cowbell but that's yeah, cause. Well, that's, this is before cowbell yeah, before cowbell.  0:20:26 - Anne But pantaloon automatically gets me there. I love it. I love it Cause I say it.  0:20:33 - Tom I can't help but do more. Christopher Walken, who doesn't like a nice pair of pantaloons?  0:20:43 - Anne I love it. I love it.  0:20:44 - Tom Cause you want your calves exposed. So yeah, and then with Kurt Douglas, it was horse, oh Horse, okay, I'm going to read my horse. If I say horse, I go into Kurt Douglas Well.  0:21:01 - Anne I think there's something always so obviously so entertaining, but something that just draws people to comedy. What are your thoughts about this crazy, chaotic world that we live in today, and where does comedy sit now, I mean, in terms of how important is it?  0:21:17 - Tom I think comedy is as important as it ever was. And it's in a weird place right now, cause I think a lot of people are reacting to people saying words and there's a lot of people getting offended easily and comedy is not for those folks that have thin skin, both sides of it.  I find it funny that I think a lot of comics right now have thin skin as far as getting some criticism back, cause it's also about growth. What was funny in 1970, if you listened to comedy in 1970 or the 80s, it's not as funny now. In some of it's just not funny at all. We grow, we expand, we move on, and to me, that's what's great about comedy is it's about adapting. You're always adapting. You're always growing, as you should be as a person. So to me, if you're moving the ball forward constantly in your life, you're gonna be a better person than you were 10 years ago. So why not take that to comedy? Absolutely, the things that were funny like 15, 20 years ago are real cringy right now, and it's not because they weren't funny back then. They were. It's the same reason I get upset with people who go back like 20 years and go. I can't believe you said that back then.  0:22:28 - Anne Well, back then that wasn't offensive.  0:22:30 - Tom Exactly, we didn't find that offensive back then. Now we've all grown up and we've all moved on a bit and we understand that's not the same. But don't punish me for something that was okay Back then. Mark Twain, who wrote a famous book about a guy named Tom Sawyer, had a lot of cringy stuff in his books. There's still masterworks of literature, but those were the times. We have to accept. That's where those books came and there were a reflection of those times. Same way we would stand up. So to me it's just about. Everybody just needs to grow up. Everybody needs to understand where everybody was back then and where they are now and be better for them.  0:23:06 - Anne Yeah, yeah. Do you find that you miss owning a comedy club or booking talent or having that in your life?  0:23:12 - Tom I miss working with young comics. That's the thing I miss the most and it was actually when I started. The last version of Cubs when it exists now, because it's a 400-seat room has really amazing acts, but they're much bigger acts and they generally bring their own acts with them, and comedians who can bring their own acts generally don't bring really really great acts because they don't want to have to work as hard. I would make comics work hard because I would have really good acts going on before them.  Sure, so they have to try to continually stand tall, so they had to keep their game. My thing was like Interesting strategy. I like that yeah yeah, absolutely Nobody could coast. And then later on it was comics they would bring in.  I didn't think they were as talented as some of the people I could book with these guys, and so I wasn't really working with the comics anymore as much as I used to, and so that's one of the things about smaller room is you can get to work with younger comics and you get to tell them the dos and the don'ts and hopefully guide them to a path where they can be their best selves on stage. Sure, that part I miss.  0:24:14 - Anne And actually, speaking of that, what sort of advice would you give to voice talent out there that want to continually up their game and stay on top of the voiceover game, because, boy, it's competitive out there, super competitive.  0:24:27 - Tom It's crazy, it's crazy.  0:24:29 - Anne Like just as I'm sure it was in comedy and being in the club. It's such a mental game a lot of the times too.  0:24:34 - Tom Yeah, the nice thing about voiceover having been a stage actor very early in my life is you don't see the person who you're auditioning for, so you don't see that look, as soon as you hit the stage, that you've already lost your audition. You're not the person they're looking for, and that's so disheartening sometimes so at least you go into every audition with this could?  0:24:56 - Anne be the one.  0:24:57 - Tom And I love auditioning, so I love going into another character or finding something I haven't found before, or even sometimes there's a couple of characters I do that I think, oh man, this one is definitely gonna find a home someplace. It's just a matter of getting in front of the right casting person hearing it. So I'll bring out those guys every now and then, when it's the right opportunity for those characters, cause they're like they're my buddies. I want them to succeed. Yeah, I think just have fun in the booth is the main thing, and if you need to take a break, tell your agent I need to take a break. I mean, I talked to other voice actors and it gets a little depressing. Everybody came in this business thinking that everybody always said I should be in voice acting and everybody always said this is what I should be doing and I did it and nothing's happening.  0:25:43 - Anne Yeah, what's your advice for that? Because that becomes like a mind game. It becomes like oh my God, I've done all this work, what else can I do? I mean, what would you suggest in terms of getting work? It seems like the question I get most often as a coach is like so all right, I've got this great demo now and had this great coaching, and so now, where's the work? How do I get the work? Or how do I stand out?  0:26:04 - Tom I think the thing about it is acting as a lottery. You're buying a lottery ticket is what you're doing. I mean, carlos Alice Rocky was a comic Lucky, had a job, state entertainment state creative, but it was getting the Taco Bell, chihuahua and all those people you auditioned from and he hit it, hit the lottery, you know so, and from there he's done so many other things. But when I say who Carlos Alice Rocky is, when I bring him up, I always go the Taco Bell, chihuahua guy and they go oh, I love that. So it's the same thing where you just go, my lottery ticket is gonna come and you're gonna believe in yourself.  When you believe in your talent and talk to other people in the business too. Just do classes I think it's still a good idea to do, just as even a workout session. Plus, you get some inspiration from other people who have a different style, maybe that you see something in yourself or you bring out something in yourself you didn't know was there. So I would say, take a class every now and then network with other people who just to have support, just so, hey, I'm here for you when you're down on yourself, in the same way that if I need somebody to talk to and say, hey, I'm really kind of wondering what the hell I'm doing here.  And they can talk you down from being sad or lift your spirits up and let you know you're really a talented person. That's why you got into this whole thing in the first place.  0:27:16 - Anne Yeah, I think that self-sabotage can happen to the best of us even.  0:27:20 - Tom And then sometimes you'll hear it in the reads. I mean, again, I'll go into a class and you can tell the person who's been beat down on pretty bad by themselves, mostly Cause do you have an agent? Yeah, do you have a demo? Yeah, well, you're doing all the right things and I think it's good to have an agent or two that are giving you good feedback or giving you feedback.  0:27:40 - Anne I was with an agency that way too many people.  0:27:43 - Tom The poop sticks agency you have 400 people that they represent and you just go. That's too many. I don't feel special when you're just going okay.  You got a demo, you're in. So I think, being with a smaller agency, that's a little more hands-on. Both my agents give me feedback every time, even if it's just a nice job. Yeah, and because of that I feel like I'm better for it, because I already know if I see a script, I know exactly what kind of read in the ballpark I need to be, so that's what I'm gonna get back. I'm at the point now where I really get back oh, you need to do this, this is too much, and something like that. So it's always I recognize what I'm working with right away. I do it, get it out, get the feedback, forget about it.  0:28:26 - Anne That's what you gotta do. I think a lot of people really crave feedback in this industry because we are just in our studios, kind of just talking into our little four padded walls, and so a lot of times it's hard when you don't get feedback and it's interesting.  0:28:40 - Tom Yeah, especially if you don't have a partner in a relationship, you know where you can at least go hey, honey, what do you think of this?  0:28:47 - Anne Yeah, you can bounce it off.  0:28:48 - Tom I don't bother my wife with everything, but every once in a while, you know, I go. You know, what do you think of this? Or she'll hear me and she'll go. I need to hear the whole thing. She'll hear me in my booth screaming, you know. And then now she has to hear all the stuff I did in that character.  0:29:04 - Anne I love what you said about well, at least when you're in front of a stage, I can, you can get that reaction from the audience. You know that, if you've bombed or not already, and the fact that when you're in your studio you actually use the fact that you're not in front of an audience as a creative kind of positive outlook, that you can be creative and not have to face that which is so interesting from, let's say, somebody that doesn't necessarily or hasn't started from being on stage. They might've worked a corporate job and now all of a sudden they're getting into character acting, and so they don't have that perspective. So I really like that perspective of taking the challenge and I think the creativity has to be in your brain, your imagination. You have to imagine that character in that scene, which is so difficult for some people. Do you have any tips on how to really create a scene realistically while you're sitting here in your studio?  0:29:53 - Tom Yeah, I think the most important thing, especially when you get those video games where it's like one line, one line, one line, one line, five, one lines and they're like hey, don't touch that rock and you're going. How are these people going to book somebody based on five lines that are no more than 10 words for the longest one?  and you're going, how am I gonna stand out in front of anybody? So you gotta kind of create a scene around those and those. I generally will write a bigger scene for the line and then because I'll have the line in there and I'll make sure that it doesn't bleed into the other words that I'm saying, but that gives me a little bit more emotional pop for that line.  0:30:35 - Anne Are you developing the characters that you're interacting with as well?  0:30:38 - Tom I know who I'm talking to. Yeah, so I might not have the character fully developed, but I know who I'm talking to.  0:30:44 - Anne Right, and what's happening in that scene? And what's happening, yeah, and you actually write that down.  0:30:48 - Tom I'll go on Word, I'll cut and paste the lines and then I'll put words around the line and highlight the line that is actually in it. So I have all the other words and a highlighted line to make sure I hit that one. But I know what's going on and I try to create more around it.  0:31:05 - Anne So how long would you say do you spend, let's say, analyzing and doing all that work? How long would you say you take for an audition to kind of do that creating the scene and writing that down before you go in and record?  0:31:17 - Tom It depends on my schedule and what I have to do and also how much I think something is really in my wheelhouse. I mean there's things you get where it's like I knock it out in 10 minutes because I really have a solid idea of what I'm gonna do with it and I go and do it and I listen to. It sounds good. With characters, though, with video games and animation, I really like to do as much as I possibly can. I remember I did this video game audition where the character was cockney. I called my dialect coach and we went through the whole thing together.  It was like a class for me. I thought this was a good opportunity to have a little class on doing a cockney accent and I said can I book our session with you? And we just worked on the script I was auditioning for because I really I loved it and I really wanted to nail it and, regardless, I got a class out of it. So it did two things for me helped me learn, and I put that learning to immediate use.  0:32:11 - Anne Absolutely absolutely.  0:32:13 - Tom And again, that's a really good thing to do is have a network of people, find a good dialect coach, find people that are teachers or coaches that you can work with, that you can go to and use them when you need, when you're stuck or when you just need something. Had a Pixar audition that I did and the character was obviously somebody from Eastern Europe and I had a friend who's from Ukraine and we went through the script and she helped me with some of the pronunciations and I didn't book it but I really felt confident sending it in.  0:32:45 - Anne I really felt like I nailed it Exactly. I love that because you've gotten the worth out of it, whether you booked it or not. So that's the other thing. So when you really are excited about something and you do all that work and you feel like you nailed the audition, but then you didn't book it, thoughts on how to stop that from getting you all upset and, oh my God, that's it.  0:33:03 - Tom Well, it's sort of like you still have to go. This is out of my control. I have no idea what the other person at the other end is going through what they've got in front of them. If they end up going with somebody that they've already booked for something and they can give them another character because union rules and it's like you did a really good job, maybe even better than that person but they're already booked and they don't have to pay another person to do that voice. They can do up to three voices and not get a penny more. So they go. Let's just give them that, so you don't know all the little things that transpire for somebody to get that part over you.  0:33:35 - Anne Yeah, and I think it's important for people to understand that it doesn't necessarily reflect on a poor performance or a poor audition.  0:33:42 - Tom No, my agent is a very funny woman and my auditions who I'm getting in front of have escalated. I'm doing more Disney Pixar auditions and stuff like that and she just goes. You're feeling upwardly.  0:33:53 - Anne There you go. I love that.  0:33:56 - Tom Which I thought was hilarious, because we always think we're failing. We're not. We're all doing the best we can and we're all doing great auditions. But because I'm doing so well in my auditions, other casting people are getting interested, so I am getting in front of people that I didn't get in front of, like four or five years ago.  0:34:12 - Anne Awesome, that's awesome. So even if you don't book the job, you could be making an impression on someone that can get you maybe the next job or the job after that.  0:34:21 - Tom That's the idea. They go well.  I really like that because you don't know, when I was booking COBS I would get DVDs and before that VHSs of comedians from around the country. We were very well known so I would get them from New York, boston, other parts of the country and they'd just pile up on my desk because it was excruciating for me at some times. So then at one point, when they were ready to fall over, I would just start watching them. In the beginning I would watch two or three minutes of somebody. Then it came down to just 30 seconds to a minute, because you know right away and that's how I'm sure it is for casting people.  0:34:56 - Anne You know right away if there's talent or if they were gonna be bookable absolutely or if they're right or wrong.  0:35:01 - Tom You might like them and you might wanna listen to the whole thing and you would go ah, they're just not quite right. I need a little bit of a younger voice. This is obviously somebody who's an older voice and I think it's really. I mean, I try to do what I can and have as much fun as I can, because there's gonna be probably 10 years down the road where this voice isn't gonna sound the same and I'll be doing grandpas and wizards.  0:35:22 - Anne So yeah, our voices do change as they age. I have experienced that myself. I certainly sound a whole lot different than I did 10 years ago. Well, well, this has been an amazing discussion, Tom. I so appreciate you taking the time and just dropping all these wonderful tips and tricks and words of wisdom for the boss listeners out there.  0:35:45 - Tom Yeah, yeah, have fun kids. That's the message.  0:35:47 - Anne There you go. I love that. So, bosses, I want you to take a moment and imagine a world full of passionate and powered, diverse individuals giving collectively and intentionally to create the world that they wanna see. You can make a difference. Find out more at 100voiceshoocareorg. And a big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can network and connect with amazing people like Tom. Find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye.  0:36:18 - Outro Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Ann Gangusa, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.  Transcribed by https://podium.page  

Legendary concert promoter Bill Graham once said of the Grateful Dead “They're not the best at what they do they're the only ones that do what they do.” For decades, Tony Coturri was to natural wine what the Grateful Dead were to Jam Bands, as in, there wasn't a name for what they were doing yet because they were the only ones doing it. In this episode, Sam and Bart, joined by guest host James Joiner, visit Uncle Tony's house, aka Coturri Winery. You could say this is where it all began for the Coturri family but as you'll learn in this episode, the Coturri's history in wine goes all the way back to Tuscany, with stops at the Italian Swiss Colony in northern Sonoma County, a cooperage in pre-WWI San Francisco and a basement in the Marina District. This is a deep dive into Sonoma history and Sam's family story as well as a frank assessment of the current state of Natural Wine. One for the archives! [EP294]

San Francisco's former fire commissioner was brutally attacked this week after a "group of homeless people" slashed him with a knife and fractured his skull with a pipe in his own front yard, according to a family friend.The attack on Don Carmignani happened just outside his home in the city's Marina District, his friend and prominent Bay Area lawyer Joe Alioto Veronese revealed on Twitter."Last night at 7pm in the marina district at Laguna and Chestnut Street, a friend and former San Francisco Commissioner was brutally beaten by a group of homeless people in front of his home," he tweeted. "He is at SF general fighting for his life. Pray4Him."Support the showSign Up For Exclusive Episodes At: https://reasonabletv.com/LIKE & SUBSCRIBE for new videos every day. https://www.youtube.com/c/NewsForReasonablePeople

Janice Bailon left her days of voiceover work and pop idol dreams in Hollywood to find her calling as a bartender in San Francisco. Despite being denied a post behind the bar due to her gender and stature, she worked her way into little dives and made it to the storied Bourbon and Branch before becoming the bar manager at For the Record in the Marina District. Instead of competing for American Idol, she now competes in beverage competitions! Check out the songs that define her here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3iWPLbc9YFypHkbpUEjiaf?si=67862413b20c4aa2

Children I laughed when I saw the video...Last night there was a slideshow in the Marina the anti-socials were burning rubber in famously elite district...I'm here for it!... #SanFranciscoEquity --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/sanfranciscodamn/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/sanfranciscodamn/support

More than 150 families living in San Francisco have hired private security to patrol their streets amid brazen property crimes, with some saying they no longer feel safe in their own neighborhood. "We don't feel safe in our neighborhood," one local resident told CBS SF. "And we have an alarm, we have cameras on our property, but we want the extra security of having someone have eyes on our place."The local resident and other families hired patrol special officer Alan Byard to help patrol the streets of the city's Marina District following repeated instances of car break-ins and home burglaries. Join your host Sean Reynolds, owner of Summit Properties NW, and Reynolds & Kline Appraisal as he takes a look at this developing topic.https://www.foxnews.com/us/san-francisco-families-dont-feel-safe-hire-private-securitySupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/seattlerealestatepodcast)

Hi Roomies!! In this episode I'm chatting with one of my esty besties Jacky Zuzu, owner of Glow and Go Beauty Co., an exclusive beauty studio featuring eyelash enhancements, brow lamination, and organic airbrush tanning. It is conveniently located in the heart of the Marina District in San Francisco. We talk some lesser talked about topics, such as: firing your clients what an esthetician should and shouldn't tolerate implementing late and no-show policies how to build a clientele the old school vs new-school rules for cultivating a genuine bond with clients how to find a great location for your salon/spa subleasing vs leasing a space how to become a lash extension artist technical tips for lash artists how to be a strong business owner pros and cons of working for someone else before starting your business what Jacky would tell her former self as a new esthetician A HUGE thank you to today's sponsors. - This episode is in partnership with my favorite beauty resource, Allure! New episodes every Thursday. Listen to Allure: The Science of Beauty at listen.allure.com/tess, or wherever you get your podcasts. - This episode is sponsored by Hum Nutrition. To help boost your wellbeing in the ways you need it most, take their quick quiz and get individualized product recommendations from their team of registered dietitians to help bring your skin, body, hormones and mood into balance with HUM Nutrition at HUMNutrition.com. Use my code TREATMENT and get 15% off your first order of $29+. If you find value in this episode it would mean so much if you left us a 5 star review on iTunes-- it helps other professionals find us and appreciate us as credible sources. THANKS SO MUCH FOR LISTENING! Jacky's salon on ig: @glowandgobeautyco FB: Glow and Go Beauty Co Jacky's website for booking: https://www.glowandgobeautyco.com/ Jacky's first episode: 28. From Hardship to Hustle: How A Lash Artist Turned Minimum Wage Into Her Own Thriving Beauty Brand: https://apple.co/2GwL7Vo Additional episode resource for brows/ lashing artist: @lashandwaxoc EPISODE 24: https://spoti.fi/2I6ZPmd Tess' Instagram @myestytessa+ Tess' YouTube: Tess Zolly Tess' TikTok: @myestytessa Music by LiQwYd --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/the-treatment-room/support

In this episode, we discuss bar adventures had in the Marina District and the Mission. Culturally very different but we find commonalities in preferential treatment if you're a "regular". LV recalls one of her favorite stories of getting almost 86'ed from a Marina establishment, and Mike helps piece together the story of a person dressed as a banana being forced out of the 500 Club during Bay to Breakers weekend.For the first time ever we discuss our hopes for our potential bachelor and bachelorette parties. Mike comes up with the most unsuitable list of honeymoon locales, and LV tries to assert dominance over planning the actual reception because if it were up to Mike there'd be a dragon.

Did that title catch your attention? This week we discuss the awful fires surrounding us all around California and how it brought us the weirdest day in some time. We have heard COVID is causing a tech industry worker exodus out of our state and we weigh in if we care. Does the Marina District have the most camel toe per capita? Mike gets burned on a third party Amazon purchase and LV admits she gave in to an Instagram product purchase. LV starts sharing her preliminary book report on the Michael Cohen memoir "Disloyal".*If you know of any organizations OTHER THAN RED CROSS that are helping those people affected by the California fires please let us know so we can amplify! 

Have you ever dreamed of being your own beauty business boss? Today Tess is chatting with lash artist + beauty business owner of Glow And Go Beauty Co, Jacky Zuzu! We talk how a family hardship caused her to switch plans, swapping her degree as a therapist for beauty school, and how she turned her minimum wage lash job into her beauty brand, offering brow, lash and tanning service to San Francisco's prominent Marina District clientele. Xoxo, Tess & Lo https://www.glowandgobeautyco.com Find Jacky on Instagram: @glowandgobeautyco Lauren's Instagram: @laurens.esthetics Tess' Instagram @myestytessa.dermaplus + Tess' YouTube: Tess Zolly Music by LiQwYd

Tuesday October 1st (00:00) Why did the Nelly show get cancelled. (9:49) Election Day off, but for kids too? Wait. (17:44) Angelina Jolie, turquoise, Adele, luggage and more in the Rated Game. (25:06) Marina District work facing a labor stoppage. No felony charge Jannah Wyley. Record temps. UT and BG to kick off at noon; BG is a 45 point underdog to Notre Dame. Vicky Simpson wins big on Wheel of Fortune. (36:29) Kelly Clarkson does Juice. Dwayne Johnson returns home. Strangers Things news. The Biebers have a wedding for loved ones. (43:52) Apparently, very easy Wizard of Oz questions for Tacos + Trivia Tuesday. (52:10) When you marry them, do you marry their debt? (1:05:14) A song we missed from the summer. Stacey Dash was arrested over the weekend. An Iggy and Lizzo feud? (1:12:03) What made you feel lucky. Your last parental regret. The PFOL. (1:21:46) Joker actors are the theme for this week’s Trailer Game. (1:30:59) What to watch and stream with Jeffy.

Today, Wade Pitts interviews James Hidalgo — owner of Infinite TKD, a Martial Arts studio based in the Marina District in San Francisco. James has been training Martial Arts for over 20 years, has competed on a professional level, and started his own school here, just 8 short years ago.   James got into Martial Arts fairly simply; he was nine years old and his sister was putting her kids into Martial Arts and had asked if he wanted to try it out as well. After a couple of weeks, his sister's kids quit, but he stayed — and never stopped going. Since then, James has trained in Boxing, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Olympic Taekwondo, Wrestling, and Muay Thai. At one point he also joined the Marine Corps and joined a school while serving as a Marine and trained for the duration of his career there. After the Marine Corps, he decided to officially pursue the sport and moved to San Francisco where he was taken under the wing of Herb Perez, the 1992 Olympic Gold Medalist, who showed him the ‘Martial Arts way.' He took a lot of inspiration from Herb and to this day, tries to model the way he trains and teaches from him. Currently, he is trying to earn his black belt in Jiu-Jitsu, though his passion still lies with Olympic Taekwondo.   In this episode, Wade and James talk about James's history in the Martial Arts, how he opened his studio, how he currently runs his studio, as well as outline some of the children and adult programs. James Hidalgo also talks about his current expansion — the next big step for him and his Martial Arts studio — an exclusive that he discusses for the first time on this show. James also has a profound answer for how martial arts has affected his personal and professional life that you're going to want to stick around for.   Key Takeaways: [1:35] Wade welcomes James Hidalgo to the podcast and James tells us about his background in the Martial Arts. [5:55] Discipline of Martial Arts; ‘Sharpening your knife.' [8:48] James' history of Martial Arts before starting his own school. [13:51] The years James was competing and his favourite competitions in his Martial Arts career. [14:52] What led to James opening up his own Martial Arts school? [16:10] The children programs James' Martial Art school offers and their mascot — a gorilla. [17:40] The adult's program at James' Martial Art school is fitness based. [19:32] The expansion James is planning for his school — an exclusive to this podcast. [21:09] The school's primary focus on six Martial Arts: Boxing, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, Olympic Taekwondo, Wrestling, and Thai. [21:58] How James's school stays true to the styles they represent; ‘Infinite.' [24:06] Where James sees Taekwondo, and Martial Arts in general, headed. [25:34] James's view on how Martial Arts has progressed and some of his philosophies on how he runs his school. [31:40] The two scholarships James's school runs. [34:20] How Martial Arts has impacted James personal and professional life. [36:51] How to get ahold of James and learn more about the studio. [38:23] The UFC fight last night: James thoughts on GSP vs. Bisping.   James Hidalgo's Links: Infinite Martial Arts   Mentioned in this Episode: Herb Perez   Quotables:   “Everybody is like a knife … we can all cut through basic things — but, there's some of us … that sharpen our knives to cut certain things.” — James Hidalgo   “Once you learn to defend yourself, you walk around with a simple confidence [as if to say], ‘It might hurt a little bit, but I could get away.'” — James Hidalgo   “Every kid that comes in we automatically teach them about ‘stranger danger' … and bully awareness … The whole school knows that this is the most important thing to focus on.” — James Hidalgo  

The MetroParks and their key role in The Marina District Banks and economic recovery. National Alliance on Mental Illness

On this week's Leading Edge, Toledo mayor Paula Hicks-Hudson joins to talk about how things are going well in the city and the new improvements that will soon be happening in Toledo's riverfront Marina District.  

Lance Landgraf & Mel Taylor AC Primetime Radio PODCAST: Why does Atlantic City's Tourism District need it's own Master Plan and zoning rules? No better person to ask than Lance Landgraf, Director of Planning for the CRDA - Casino Reinvestment Development Authority. Listen to the ACprimetime Radio Podcast interview from March 17, 2017. Here are some items & questions discussed: What does a CRDA Director of Planning do? What is a Master plan? What is ZONING? Why is it so important? How does your work as CRDA Director of Planning…. compare or differ from what Elizabeth Terenik does… as the City of Atlantic City’s Director of Planning? Is there overlap? Maybe some friendly conflict on occasion? Master plans are updated approximately every 10 years. Last one for the Atlantic City Tourism District was 5 years ago. Share a specific example of what NEW… POSITIVE stuff can be done….with a new Tourism District masterplan. Gardner’s Basin & Caspian Point are two Atlantic City areas RIPE for development, especially with a newly rebuilt Boardwalk leading there. How does the CRDA play a role with something like that? CRDA assisted with zoning issues in a previous attempt….from a different developer/investor group, to turn the old Atlantic club/Hilton/original Golden Nugget into a water park. Do preliminary plans from R & R Development Group…conform to previous CRDA approvals for a waterpark at Atlantic Club? Did you already have a peek at what R&R Developers want to do? So Atlantic City investors doesn’t waste time buying a property, does CRDA provide preliminary approvals….prior to major purchases? Do you review and OK their plans...BEFORE they close on building? How does that process work? ‘Land banking’ is often seen as a negative, but it’s often a necessary tactic to create an attractive canvas for development. Loss of ratables is probably the biggest negative while that land/parcel is ‘banked’. Please explain the rationale behind land banking. Revel district. Potential use of Eminent domain. Thoughts? Re-zoning has raised some eyebrows…..concerns over Real Estate values being affected….which is normal. How does the CRDA respond to those concerns? Which districts see MOST substantial ZONING changes? Resort Commercial District & Central Business District Ducktown Arts District & Thorofare Waterfront District Resort Commercial Development District Multifamily Low-Rise Apartment Residential District Lighthouse One District –Lighthouse Two District Beach District, Marina District, Bader Field District How do we grow AC as tourism destination….and a place where millennials want to buy a home, raise a family…..while addressing social / economic needs of current AC residents?  AC is on an island of Casinos, potential Waterparks, Restaurants, attractions… and residential neighborhoods. How does CRDA reduce chance of residential disruption…..from our fast growing/evolving…..really important…..casino industry & tourism district?

Richard Allen, professor and director of the UC Berkeley Seismological Laboratory, discusses the lessons learned from the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake which was centered on a section of the San Andreas Fault near Santa Cruz. It shook Northern California at 5:04 p.m., causing 63 deaths, several thousand injuries, and $6 billion in property damage, including the collapse of a section of the upper deck of the Bay Bridge, a section of the Interstate 880 freeway in Oakland, and many residential homes in San Francisco’s Marina District. Series: "UC Berkeley News" [Science] [Show ID: 29314]

Richard Allen, professor and director of the UC Berkeley Seismological Laboratory, discusses the lessons learned from the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake which was centered on a section of the San Andreas Fault near Santa Cruz. It shook Northern California at 5:04 p.m., causing 63 deaths, several thousand injuries, and $6 billion in property damage, including the collapse of a section of the upper deck of the Bay Bridge, a section of the Interstate 880 freeway in Oakland, and many residential homes in San Francisco’s Marina District. Series: "UC Berkeley News" [Science] [Show ID: 29314]

Adam Rosenblum is executive chef of Causwells in San Francisco. It's located on Chestnut St in the Marina District. Formerly sous chef of the renowned Flour + Water, Rosenblum pumps out a menu of bold American cuisine with European influences. Before booking Rosenblum, we had no idea he is from the town of $ilver $pring, MD (dollar signs necessary because it's a city of kings) a place maDCap knows well. In yet another tasty edition of the Gorm Report, Laura Gorman and Rosenblum talk about his cooking philosophy, the hard lessons he learned when opening a restaurant at age 24 and the restaurant he plans to retire with. "I just want to cure meats and drink wine," says Rosenblum. Damn straight. www.causwells.com @big-chocolate: https://soundcloud.com/big-chocolate/big-chocolate-and-toms-diner

Adam Rosenblum is executive chef of Causwells in San Francisco. It's located on Chestnut St in the Marina District. Formerly sous chef of the renowned Flour + Water, Rosenblum pumps out a menu of bold American cuisine with European influences. Before booking Rosenblum, we had no idea he is from the town of $ilver $pring, MD (dollar signs necessary because it's a city of kings) a place maDCap knows well. In yet another tasty edition of the Gorm Report, Laura Gorman and Rosenblum talk about his cooking philosophy, the hard lessons he learned when opening a restaurant at age 24 and the restaurant he plans to retire with. "I just want to cure meats and drink wine," says Rosenblum. Damn straight. www.causwells.com @big-chocolate: https://soundcloud.com/big-chocolate/big-chocolate-and-toms-diner

Hello, chum! It is I, Marc Hershon, purveyor of Succotash, the Comedy Podcast Podcast and your ears are hearing Epi 89! (If you’re a subscriber to us via ConnectPal, you’re hearing this two days before anyone else!) If you found Succotash through iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud, our Facebook page or any other means, would you do us a favor? Go back and rate us if you can. Five stars on iTunes and a short review. A "thumbs up" on Stitcher. A heart on SoundCloud. Whatever you have access to, it costs you nothing and makes a world of difference to us.  Of course, if you want to contribute more substantially, I invite you to click the Donate button on our http://SuccotashShow.com homesite.  Epi89 features my audio visit with podcaster, raconteur, singer, Ren Faire hanger-on, and bridge hanger-outer Hob The Troll. Although there are millions of trolls on the internet, Hob is the only actual troll-troll that I know of, and how luck are we that he hosts a regular Hobcast? He's had a number of wonderful guest on his show, some in character, some that just ARE characters, including Hal Lublin from The Thrilling Adventure Hour, who has been on our show a couple of times now. SUCCOTASH ZIPPER PULLS ARE HERE! Our newest tchotchke, the Succotash Zipper Pull, is here! This nifty thingy features a wee Succotash button clamped onto a little hook that affixes to pretty much any zipper you may have around on your jacket, duffel bag or gimp suit. If you're like one for FREE, you just need to email your snail mail address to zipper@SuccotashShow.com and we'll mail one out to you. DOUBLE DOSE O' DURST Once again, we've got two of our Burst O' Durst segments from cultural commentating comedian Will Durst this episode, as well as a "classic" Henderson's Pants commercial and a nifty set of clips – most of which were culled this week byour Associate Producer Tyson Saner. THE 10 MOST ACTIVE SHOWS ON THE STITCHER TOP 100 COMEDY PODCAST LIST The idea to focus on the 10 most ACTIVE shows on Stitcher's Top 100 Comedy Podcast List (rather than the Top 10 shows, which rarely ever change…) originally came to us from Ed Wallick, host of the Don't Quit Your Daycastpodcast. Just wanted to mention that because Ed let us know that he just bought some new podcasting equipment and used our Amazon banner at the top of the SuccotashShow.com website to get to that fabulous online everything store. You can, too, and Amazon will then kick us back a few quatloos to help us keep this operation going. Here's this week's 10 Most Active… AT                                                                                  MOVED 25 How Did this Get Made?                                                 -729 SModcast >> Jay & Silent Bob Get Old                            +1531 Bertcast’s Podcast                                                         +643 This Week In Blackness Radio                                         +551 Sklarbro Country                                                            +755 The Brian Callen Show                                                   +1058 What About Pod?                                                           -2061 The Champs w/Neal Brennan & Moshe Kasher                 -1065 The Cracked Podcast                                                     -3779 Harmontown                                                                 -13 EXTRA PLUG An Indiegogo campaign went up this week that's near and dear to the hearts of those privy to the San Francisco comedy scene. The Comedy Club focuses on Cobb's Comedy Club, from its inception in the Marina District through it's relocation and subsequent fire in the Cannery to its present location downtown. The comedians who have crossed the Cobb's stage range from the legendary to the obscure, and it's a story that's been lovingly told by filmmaker David Schendel. The film's almost all done except for final processing bits n' pieces. Check out the trailer and maybe even get your name in the credits at https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-comedy-club.    THE CLIPS Chillpak Hollywood HourWe usually feature a snippet from this show each week that has Chillpak Hollywood hosts Dean Haglund and Phil Leirness mentioned Succotash. But the boys have been busy and that means pre-recorded shows with guests and not much mention of us. (Although they did tag us at the very end of the most recent show - thanks, guys!) So I figured this was a good opportunity to play a straight-up clip of this excellent show. It's a story of Dean's early days in Hollywood, and who he found when he went star-spotting at the once-popular Sky Bar. The Wolf DenThis show from the Earwolf Network, subtitled “The Business and Future of Podcasting”, is hosted by the network's co-founder Jeff Ulrich. It was just announced this past week that Mr. Ulrich is stepping down as CEO of Earwolf and also The Midroll, which is his podcast advertising agency. In an open letter to the Internet, he let everyone know that he’s taking a bit of a hiatus from showbiz, spending time with his family and figuring out his next steps in life. (I'm assuming The Wolf Den is either going away or maybe transitioning to a new host…) We feature a slice of Jeff’s chat with guest and fellow podcasting magnate Chris Hardwick from The Nerdist Network. The Smartest Man In The WorldI just did a review of Greg Proops’ The Smartest Man in the World for Splitsider and Huffington Post. And I realized it’s been a while since I clipped that show, which is a great example of – as I say in the review – a Master of the Spew. Someone who can keep up a steady stream of entertaining solo monologue. There are podcasters like Bill Burr and Larry Miller and Marc Maron who are certainly Spew Masters but Greg is one of the only guys who really only does it in front of a live audience as opposed to in a studio or an apartment or whatever. He was recently over in Wales, at the literary Hay Festival in the town of Hay and I pulled a slice of him getting into a riff around one of Wales’ favorite sons… Dining with Doug & KarenDoug Benson is, perhaps, most famous for his Doug Loves Movies podcast but he’s funny at so much else, including his Benson Interruptions and his Getting Doug With High YouTube show. With all that pot smoking that DB does though, comes a powerful need to feed. I’m not sure if that was the inspiration for Dining with Doug and Karen, featuring Mr. Benson and Karen Anderson but, high or not, you'll enjoy them along with guest Greg Behrendt as they all eat “Belly Bombz Asian fusion wings". Norm MacDonald LiveThere have only been about 15 episodes of Norm MacDonald Live, with comedian Norm MacDonald and co-host Adam Eget, and it’s actually a VIDEOcast from The Video Podcast Network, which is probably why it wasn’t exactly on my radar until now. (The 'sodes are later released as audiocasts via iTunes.) We're featuring a clip from a recent outing in which Norm was lucky enough to corral comic great Carl Reiner on the show. TANcastThe TANcast is a show I’ve seen tweets about but never listened to but then was inspired to when I saw some fun Photoshoppery by Tim Babb, one of the three hosts. He’s also a standup comedian, whereas his two buddies, Adam and Noah — T, A & N. TAN. TANcast, get it? — are not comics. But they were all roommates at one time and now, even though they are separated by distance, technology brings them together every week. This clip is from one of their regular features, TANLaughs, in which they read jokes sent in by their listeners. Sometimes really bad jokes. There's Epi89 in a nutshell. Or a blog, rather. Hope you enjoy listening. If you do (or if you don't), or if you'd like to tell me about a comedy podcast worth clipping that we haven't featuring on Succotash yet, drop me a line at marc@SuccotashShow.com OR call into the Succotash Hotline at (818) 921-7212 (also uptuyu on Skype…) and leave a message that we'll feature on the show. Pass the Succotash! — Marc Hershon

Welcome to Epi59 of Succotash, the Comedy Podcast Podcast once again. This episode we’ll be paying visits to some old friends. Why? Well, I’ve been playing a lot of clips from new shows – new in the both the sense that they just started podcasting and some new in the sense that I just am getting around to them even though they’ve been online for a while.  So I figured we should drop in on some podcasts and podcasters we've clipped previously and see how they're sounding. I also have an interview with Special Guest Michael Meehan, who is a San Francisco-based comedian, actor and now movie maker. I talk with Mike while eating at a really noise Chinese restaurant in the Marina District about Hey Monster, Hands Off My City!, the feature-length comedy he’s directing and has an IndieGoGo campaign for to help foot the bill. Which means there is still time for YOU to get involved, kick in some dough to help out and - if you get really generous, get yourself a juicy onscreen appearance in the movie! There's a link to the 15-days-left-to-go IndieGoGo campaign over on the right hand side of our homesite at SuccotashShow.com. (We kicked in $50 - why wouldn't we? Mike bought dinner, after all...) And I'm embedding the teaser video for Hey Monster, Hands Off My City in the body of the blog below. Mike and I talk a bit about standup and some sketch comedy he did with his two brothers awhile back but, because we're mostly focusing on the movie, I'll be inviting him back to spend more time talking about comedy and his take on podcasting as an extension of some comedians' careers. BOOZIN' WITH BILL This epi sees a new Boozin’ With Bill segment. This time he's got a nice summer cooler of a drink that he whips up (with no blender mishap like last time!) and he'll tell you how to make an Elliott Spritzer, in honor of the besmirched prostitution customer and former governor of New York, Elliott Spitzer. The recipe is included right on our homesite, should you be brave enough to attempt whipping up one of booth announcer Bill Haywatt's concoctions. CHILLPAK VS SUCCOTASH: WE WIN! After months of playful back-and-forth mentions on each others' podcasts, it seems that Dean Haglund and Phil Leirness of The Chillpak Hollywood Hour dropped the bal due to Dean having to leave town suddenly and the guys having to play a pre-recorded show that pre-dated our tete-a-tete. Rather than be a sore winner, I talked with Phil at lenght  the other night about that and other things. It was too long to include in THIS episode of Succotash, so I will make it the focus of an upcoming Succotash Special Edition: Epi59 that I will drop in a few days. THE 10 MOST ACTIVE IN THE STITCHER TOP 100 COMEDY PODCAST LIST I'm enjoying the fact we moved away from a standard Top 10 list to feature, instead, the shows showing the most movement - up OR down - on Stitcher's Top 100 Comedy Podcasts list. Just wanted to thank Ed Wallick of the Don't Quit Your Daycast for suggesting the idea. Here is this week's rundown: 37. Onion Radio News +2838. Smodcast -> FEaB +7850. The Dana Gould Hour +5455. The Naughty Show +1962. About Last Night +3767. Yoshi Didn’t Podcast -2868. Jim Florentine’s ‘Metal Comedy Midgets’ +2481. The Tenderloins Podcast +3683. Dining With Doug & Karen +4994. The Dead Authors Podcast -22 BURST O' DURST This week's installment features  our Ambassador to the Middle Will Durst picking on those he calls "The Batty Battalion" of Obamanators. (If you're going to be in the San Francico area, check out Will's new one-man show BoomeRaging: From LSD to OMG, Tuesday nights through June 25th at the Marsh Theater.) THE CLIPS Tiny Odd Conversationsravis and Brandi Clark just hit their 100th episode! There was a time about 50 or 60 epis ago when they were ready to hang it up for fear they had nothing left to say. Obviously, they found some new stuff to talk about. I’ve had a several opportunities to meet up and hang out with them and they are a delight, as you may be able to glean from this exchange clipped from TOC Epi100… Dylan Brody's Neighbor's CouchDarren Staley is a podcast host I’ve NOT had the pleasure of meeting personally but we have cross-tweeted a lot and I’ve clipped his show a few times on the show before. He's a nice guy – Dylan Brody even told me that himself – and the audio quality on his show has gotten WAY better since he first put voice to mic. Here’s part of his chat with writer and a producer of Everybody Loves Raymond and a bunch of other stuff, Lew Schneider. Royal & DoodallAfter I got my t-shirt and a nice note from Tommy Royal and Angus Doodall over at the Royal & Doodall podcast, I mentioned I’d play a clip form their show, which we hadn’t visited in a while. To my surprise, they hadn’t DONE a show since March. Never fear, they’re still around and finally dropped show 59.1 a few days ago. Tommy thought he should catch Angus up on what he’d been missing… Dazed & ConvictedLast episode I mentioned that I would clip Dazed & Convicted by friend-of-Succotash Monica Hamburg and so I did. She and co-host Bill Allman podcast out of Canada, where they bring up some freakish crime stories, do some sketches around them, then bring in a comedian to help determine their “Fucktard Of The Week”. That's all for now. Like our Facebook page. Rate us on iTunes. Thumbs up us on Stitcher. Buy some merch. And, above all else, please remember to pass the Succotash! — Marc Hershon

THIS WEEK'S PODCAST TRANSCRIPT:America's "Master Birdman" makes his final flight March 15, 1915: "The Man Who Owns the Sky" It was the year of the legendary Panama-Pacific International Exposition. San Francisco had once again earned that phoenix on her flag by rising from the ashes of the 1906 earthquake and fire -- and just nine years later, the city celebrated its rebirth by winning the right to host the World's Fair. Visitors from every point on the compass swarmed towards California to visit the resurgent city. You probably know that the site of the Fair was the neighborhood now called the Marina, that acres of shoreline mudflats were filled in to create space for a grand and temporary city, and that the mournfully elegant Palace of Fine Arts is its lone survivor. The exhibits and attractions on offer were endless and famously enchanting, but one of the most spectacular events took place in the air above the Fair. On March 15, a quarter of a million people gathered in the fairgrounds and on the hills above them to see a man in an ultra-modern experimental airplane perform unparalleled feats of aeronautical acrobatics. That man was Lincoln Beachey, and in 1915 he was the most famous aviator in the country -- known from coast to coast as "The Man Who Owns the Sky". read on ...