Podcast appearances and mentions of carey nieuwhof

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Dr. Allen Holmes, Senior Pastor of Definition Church. Allen has served at Definition for 25 years, leading it from a congregation of 30 people to one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. But in this conversation, we don't start with strategy—we start with the soul. Allen shares how a personal marriage crisis early in ministry exposed deep character issues and launched him on a decades-long journey of spiritual formation that has shaped both his leadership and his church. Is it possible that the greatest lid on your ministry isn't your strategy—but your inner life? Allen challenges leaders to rethink success, crisis, and longevity through the lens of character formation. Pressure reveals who you really are. // Leadership rarely collapses because of incompetence—it collapses because pressure exposes unaddressed character issues. Early in seminary and marriage, Allen's wife told him she didn't love him and didn't want to remain in ministry. The crisis shattered his sense of calling and identity. Allen—by God's grace—was able to ask: What in me has produced this? That shift from defensiveness to humility marked the beginning of deep transformation. From gifted producer to formed leader. // Allen explains that many leaders are rewarded for production, not formation. A gifted communicator can build a crowd while remaining insecure, defensive, and relationally immature. You can be a great producer and a poor leader. True leadership requires learning to lead yourself. For Allen, that meant confronting independence, insecurity, and relational blind spots—issues rooted in his upbringing that were sabotaging both marriage and ministry. Prioritizing presence over performance. // The turning point in Allen's growth was deceptively simple: he began prioritizing his relationship with Jesus. Guided by a mentor, he learned to read Scripture for formation rather than information and to cultivate rhythms of prayer, worship, and dependence on the Holy Spirit. Ministry leaders face an occupational hazard—handling Scripture transactionally for sermons while neglecting personal communion with Christ. For Allen, consistent morning surrender became the foundation for long-term sustainability. Marriage as spiritual formation. // Allen describes marriage as God's primary classroom for sanctification. Drawing from the biblical metaphor of Christ and the Church, he explains how learning to live in the presence of his wife taught him how to live in the presence of God. Simple daily rhythms—morning prayer, consistent check-ins, shared meals, evening walks, praying together—have sustained their relationship for decades. Rather than competing with ministry, his marriage strengthens it. What God forms privately shapes what leaders produce publicly. Culture flows from character. // Over 25 years, Allen's commitment to personal formation has shaped Definition Church's culture. Every staff member has a “rule of life” and an intentional growth plan. Personal development is written into job descriptions as the number-one responsibility. Staff are given monthly retreat days to spend extended time alone with Jesus. Spiritual practices are embedded into the life of the church. Allen believes you reproduce who and what you are—so the greatest contribution a leader can make is becoming more like Christ. The power of staying. // Allen notes that lasting impact often requires long tenure. His senior leadership team has served together for decades, building trust and shared formation. In a skeptical culture, credibility grows through consistency. But longevity without formation is dangerous. The process prepares leaders for the purpose; bypassing the process risks collapse. Like Joseph's journey from entitlement to anointing in the Old Testament, leaders must pass through refining seasons before they can steward influence well. To learn more about Definition Church, explore their resources, and connect with Allen, visit definition.church. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Today’s going to be a really good conversation. It’s one of those conversations that I think we all need to have, looked carefully at, think about ourselves, think about the teams we lead. I really do think it’s one of those make or break kind of conversations. And so you’ll be rewarded for tuning in today. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dr. Allen Holmes with us. He’s a senior pastor of a church called Definition Church. He’s been there since 2000, so a few years. They’re located in North Carolina and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. They have a residency program as well that’s called to train and develop next generation of mission-minded ministry leaders. And believing that generosity is a privilege, Definition Church also partners with a number of other ministries, churches, and organizations to really serve their community. Dr. Allen, so glad you’re here. Thanks for being here today.Allen Holmes — Wow. Well, I’m so excited to be here, Rich, and appreciate the invitation.Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be a fun conversation. Why don’t you kind of fill out the picture?Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — Tell us a little bit about Definition. Kind of tell us the story. Give us a sense of the church.Allen Holmes — Well, my wife and I, we grew up down in Wilmington, which is on the coast of North Carolina. In 2000, we were finishing seminary and looking for a church, really looking for a city where we could plant our life and stay in one place kind of forever. And we were in a small town. Our first church was in a small town of about 1500. And Greensboro was one of the cities we visited, and there was a church here that had lost their pastor. They only had about 30 people.Allen Holmes — And the truth is that was safe and kind of gave us a a lot of freedom to make mistakes and learn and grow as leaders and as a man and a woman, as a married couple, as parents, you know, all the things without mistakes, really the pressure of a big church and a lot of expectations. And that was perfect for us. And and we fell in love with the city and it’s been 25 years now. It’s hard to believe that. And and but we love it here. Greensboro’s home now and and Definition’s been great to us.Rich Birch — So good. Well, I want to take advantage of the fact that you’ve been at your location, at your church for a number of years. When you look back over two and a half decades of ministry, and you know you’ve seen a lot of churches in your community, and then just even wider you know across the country, that sort of thing. Where have you seen leadership fall apart in churches? We’ll start with the negative to start.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — When’s it break down most often? Why does, you know, why do the wheels come off? Where have you seen that happen?Allen Holmes — You know, I think generally it’s just anything that creates pressure. So I think we have a tendency to train and prepare as leaders when there’s no pressure.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then all of a sudden we find ourselves in a situation where there’s a tremendous amount of pressure. And in those moments, it’s not what we know that matters, but who we are. Rich Birch — So true.Allen Holmes — It kind of gets it gets exposed. And this happened for me the first time I was in seminary. It was my second semester. My wife, Tina, and I had just gotten married. So we were five months into marriage. I was living my dream. I mean, seminary for, you know, somebody who wants to be a pastor is like Disney World, right? I mean, I’m in class every day studying the Bible, surrounded by all these people that love Jesus. I’ve got this vision for changing the world. I mean, it was just wonderful.Allen Holmes — And in month five, towards the end of that second semester, I came home and and my wife wasn’t doing well. I didn’t realize, you know, how bad it was. But that day I came home and she said, I don’t love you. Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And I don’t want to be married. I will never be in the ministry. I'm going home.Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And it’s like, all of a sudden, my whole world just began to fall apart. You know, at that stage of life, the only thing that really mattered to me was ministry. You know I had this call, this sense of calling. And my marriage.Allen Holmes — I really I grew up in a broken home, really didn’t have any family. And my wife and actually her family were family to me.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And so in that moment, it felt like I was losing everything that mattered. Rich Birch — Wow. Allen Holmes — And I realized that despite all of my gifts and my zeal and my passion and my good intentions, beneath the surface, I had all of this on all of these unaddressed issues from my life story that were now coming to the surface and creating a mess in my marriage. And that crisis, that pressure exposed those things and created an opportunity for me to learn and grow. And by God’s grace, we dropped out of seminary, we moved back home. And I met Dr. Bennett, who became a mentor to me. He was a retired pastor.Allen Holmes — And I just started this journey of instead of being focused on just what I do and what I could produce, which is all I knew up until that moment, to really asking some deeper questions about who am I? And what’s driving all of this behavior and what’s creating this problem in my marriage? And how do I invite Christ to really do a deeper work in my heart and life and character? And and I’ve been on that journey now for almost 30 years.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredibly compelling. One of my mentors, he talks about how he burnt out early and he had kind of, you know, ended up on the side of the road and, you know, in a really bad spot in life. And he says, he looks back on that and says, wow, by by God’s grace, that happened. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — You know, and, and wow, that, you know, his whole, it changed the whole trajectory of you know his life and he made a whole bunch of changes. And he feels really, in a weird sort of way, thankful for for that, if even though you’re thankful, it feels like a weird emotion to have around such a crisis you know in you know in your life. Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — Now, so many leaders, we’re so focused on the mission. We’re so focused on leading others. We’re so focused on pushing forward. We miss this stuff. There's there are these things bubbling under the surface. And and we haven’t had the grace of a wife who would raise her hand and say, hey, this enough is enough. Why do you think that gap is so common in ministry? Why is this just like a thing we see all the time?Allen Holmes — Well, I think to your point, in ministry, just like not just in ministry, but any organizational leadership, you’re rewarded and celebrated for what you produce. And the truth is that’s all most people can see. I mean, when my marriage blew up, if you would have gone around and interviewed my friends, my family, Tina’s family, my professors, if you would have asked anybody about me, they would have said, Allen's a rising star. He loves God. I mean, he he’s doing all the stuff. He’s checking all the boxes. This guy’s going to really be somebody one day.Allen Holmes — But what you couldn’t see is that beneath the surface, I didn’t know who I was. And I was insecure. I was defensive. I was independent. I really didn’t know how to do relationships well. I was insensitive.Allen Holmes — I didn’t have like a bad, ugly heart. I mean, I loved and cared about people. I just had all of these unaddressed, unfinished issues in my life. But my giftedness would allow me to produce despite that.Allen Holmes — You know, I think sometimes people um wonder why are leaders great at leading, but, you know, they struggle to lead themselves. I’m not sure that’s really a real thing. What leaders are good at doing is they’re great at producing. They’re not great at leading if they're not great at leading themselves. In other words, I can be a great producer and a bad leader.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — I can be great on stage and draw a crowd and kind of be a slave-driving leader. And it might, from a numbers perspective and people that aren’t close, they look at it and think, wow, this is wildly successful. But the people on the inner circle know better, that the culture is unhealthy and and this person’s, you know, shallow or he’s a tyrant or whatever the, you know, whatever the case might be.Allen Holmes — There’s all kinds of ways to build a crowd in American culture today that have very little to do with Jesus. And we’ve seen that over and over and over again. So I think in order to be a great leader, you have to be able and willing to lead yourself.Rich Birch — So what did that process look like for you the kind of internal journey of trying to name what your wife had or or define maybe what your wife had named to really get clarity on that? Maybe unpack that step a little bit first before we get on to what changed. You know, how how did you, what did that look like? How, what kind of space did you have to create? What, what, did where did that, what did that part of the journey take you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, when I look back on all this, I’m, you know, I’m just so grateful for God’s grace because I didn’t even understand the process I was in. I mean, you know, I was just in it and trying to navigate it. But by God’s grace, I decided to ask the question, what in my character has produced this in my marriage. And what’s really shocking about that is all of my seminary buddies were saying, what is wrong with your wife? Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And I, by God’s grace, was saying, what’s wrong with me?I had enough humility to look at my wife and go, you know, I married this woman because she was so full of grace and kind and gentle, this beautiful soul, this beautiful person. So if she’s reacting this way, chances are she’s not the problem. You know, sometimes.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Allen Holmes — Something about our relationship is producing that. And actually, so what it was is, my wife grew up in this really great, healthy family, parent, two-parent home, siblings, people in her house all the time. Her mom cooked every night. I ate at their house five nights a week. I mean, it’s like their family became my family.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Well, I grew up with none of that. I grew up with a single mom, basically all by myself, raising myself. And those two worlds just collided. So when we went seminary, I was doing school full-time and working full-time, and she was working full-time. And I thought, well, that was normal. That’s what I’d been doing for years and years. I’d worked my way through college. I’d been and on my own since I was 18.Allen Holmes — And so that seemed normal. But for Tina, it’s like she went from living in this beautiful community to being all by herself at seminary, and I’m not even there. Rich Birch — Right, right. Wow.Allen Holmes — And she’s and so she was relationally just dying, and I didn’t know how to be sensitive to that. You know, I wanted to just say, you know, get over it. Life’s hard…Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — …which would not have worked. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Allen Holmes — You know But I just had enough grace to begin asking, God, what are you trying to do in my heart? And and like you were saying earlier about your buddy, the thing I would say today, if I would have married a woman strong enough to tolerate that moment, I would have been I would have never survived in ministry because I would have been a driven, legalistic, judgmental, demanding kind of pastor that that really, I think, used the Bible to beat people up.Allen Holmes — And I mean, instead of being a man who really actually experienced, I guess, an inner this inner, deeper work and can invite people into something that is deeply spiritual and transformational and life-giving, you know, I would have just been this ugly, difficult pastor to be with. And so I’m so grateful. I mean, that that really began this journey that just changed and has literally touched everything about my life and ministry and our marriage today. I mean, it’s amazing.Rich Birch — Yeah. So what, what changed? What, how did you change your, you know, approach to making decisions, to dealing with the pressure, dealing with the pace? You know, obviously we were kind of at the point in the journey where you took a pause and made some changes, but eventually, you know, you ended up back on that path and back into ministry and have been leading and the ministry has been flourishing. So what were some of the, the kind of shifts that you made that were that, in hindsight seemed like that was, those were keystone decisions.Allen Holmes — Well, this sounds so silly to even say it, especially to Christian leaders, but I had to prioritize my relationship with Jesus.Rich Birch — Right, right.Allen Holmes — Well, there’s a good idea.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, exactly. Write that down. What did he say? No but that’s true, though. Lean in on that because you know that there are…Allen Holmes — Yes.Rich Birch — Listen, we all know we go, we all go through seasons where that our relationship goes colder. Some of us, we, you know, we just, it’s been like years, decades since we feel like we’ve had a thriving relationship. So lean in on that.Allen Holmes — Well, you know, it’s interesting when I when we moved back to Wilmington and I started spending time with Dr. Bennett, he just he just pressed me on that all the time. Give your mornings to Jesus. Give your mornings to Jesus. And I just began learning how do I develop a meaningful time with Jesus every day? How do I read the Bible for formation instead of information.Rich Birch — That’s good.Allen Holmes — And how, you know, how do I worship for formation? How do I what is my relationship to the Holy Spirit and inviting him into those moments to help me see and to understand, to teach and to heal and to counsel me into healing, wholeness, growth, all those things.Allen Holmes — You know, how do I press into community? You know, I was so independent. And the truth is, I mean, 30 years later, I’m still working on this.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I was so trained to be independent and I liked being independent. I wasn’t unhappy independent… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …but independence allows you to hold on to your immaturity because nobody’s challenging it.Rich Birch — Nobody’s in your business.Allen Holmes — Nobody’s confronted. That’s right. And so I just began really developing that time with Jesus and just fell in love with spending time with Jesus. And again, that that changed everything. And again, as silly as that sounds, I’ve been in so many groups. It’s kind of shocking how often I’m with pastors and they just say, I just, I don’t have time to read my Bible.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I don’t have time to worship. I can’t give 15 or 20 minutes in the mornings to the Lord. And it’s like, if that if that’s true, then something is just so out of order about our life and ministry. And we’ve not learned to juggle all of that. And because we’re not handling that well, so many pastors, they don’t finish in ministry. Rich Birch —Right.Allen Holmes — Ministry chews them up and spits them out. And so we have to make that the priority. So important. So important.Rich Birch — Yeah, I really appreciate that. I appreciate you leaning in on that. And this is an area where it’s an occupational hazard in what we’ve picked to do…Allen Holmes — Oh, yeah. That’s right.Rich Birch — …because our our job is to produce that in other people. And so we have to handle the scripture in in a way, you know, it’s like a part of what we do to produce the content we produce or whatever that is. And it can become very transactional if we don’t watch. And so I really appreciate you leaning in on that.Allen Holmes — That’s exactly right.Rich Birch — What about on the married side? What advice would you give? Again, you’ve, you’ve are happily married today and you know, all these years later.Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s right.Rich Birch — And, what, what rhythms have you found that have worked well for you and your wife, for you to continue to lead and to lead, you know, at a high level. The reason why we’re talking is because you’re leading a fast-growing church.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — But, you know, you’re doing that and keeping your marriage. What are some of the rhythms that you, that you help coach other, maybe younger leaders to, to really instill on that side, to, to, to be, to be whole on that side?Allen Holmes — One of the things that was so helpful early on is recognizing that my marriage was God’s gift to me to learn, not just to grow and to mature as a man, but even to learn to walk with God.Allen Holmes — And one of the things you see in Scripture over and over and over again is the primary metaphor God uses to describe our relationship with Him as a husband and a wife, that we’re the bride of Christ.Allen Holmes — And what I found is that my marriage and my relationship with Jesus were running in parallel. So if I learned something with Tina, it strengthened my relationship with Jesus. And when I would learn something with Jesus, it would actually strengthen my relationship with Tina, that they were you know playing off of each other that way.Allen Holmes — And so as Tina and I started working on our marriage, I mean, it was it was as simple like even when I think about giving my mornings to God. When I wake up every day, the first thing I do is I roll over on my knees. I acknowledge Jesus, you are my king, king of my heart and life.Allen Holmes — I invite the Holy Spirit to fill me fresh for that day. And I probably pray there three to five minutes, and then I roll over on my back and put my hand on my sleeping wife. And I just take a minute and begin praying and and blessing my wife.Allen Holmes — And then I’ll get up and I’ll I’ll kind of have of usually a couple hours where I can just be in the Word, I can worship, I can be in so have silence and solitude and just allow God to minister to my soul. And then i don’t ever leave the house without giving my wife a kiss, telling her I love her, embracing her.Allen Holmes — During the day, I’m going to check in two or three times. How’s your day going? What’s going on with you? You know, if I’m driving somewhere or between meetings, you know, little quick touches. Rich Birch — That's good.Allen Holmes — When I get home, I’m going to walk in the house. The first thing I’m going do is I’m going to find Tina. We’re going to eat dinner together that night. At the end of the day, we’re going to maybe go on a walk that night. We may get in bed and just both be reading a book for a little bit. We might talk about our day or what’s going on with our kids or life.Allen Holmes — Before we go to bed, before we go to sleep, we’ll pray together. And again, I want to make sure that I’m affirming my love for… When I describe all of that to people and what I try to tell them is have a response. The Christian life is learning to live in the presence of God. And marriage is learning to live in the presence of your wife.Allen Holmes — And so I know throughout the day what’s going on in the heart of my wife and how to love and serve her well, even when I’m here at work. And as a Christian, I’ve got to learn how do I live in the presence of God and recognize he’s always with me. And I want to bring Jesus into every moment, every meeting, every decision. And versus I have devotional time and I leave God at home. And then I come to work and do my work.Allen Holmes — So that’s just one example. As I learned how to do that with Tina, I saw how to apply to my relationship with God and vice versa.Rich Birch — That's so good. Yeah, that’s so helpful. Let’s talk about how your internal life and your own growth and your own staying close to him, what impact has that had on the church, on your team, on the people you lead? How do you see those two, you know, working together?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. So part of it is you reproduce who and what you are. Rich Birch — True. Allen Holmes — So what we’re describing, and of course, I’ve got 25 years of this, and so that gives me a little bit of an advantage in that regard because this takes time to build. You know, it doesn’t happen overnight. But when this has been kind of the direction of your life for over 25 years, then it becomes the direction of the organization and the people that you lead. And so on our on our church staff and our church and the way we do ministry, the way our we you know our mission is all affected by what we’re talking about.Allen Holmes — And so our staff, that you know, they all have a rule of life. They all have a very intentional plan a plan for their spiritual and personal and leadership growth in their life. And and we work as a team to to facilitate that. In fact, in our job descriptions, their number one responsibility is their personal growth and development. And we tell them all the time, the greatest thing you can do for everyone in your life is to learn and grow as a leader. That’s the greatest contribution you can make. When you do that, you everybody comes up. you You bless everybody. So work harder on who you are than what you’re building.Allen Holmes — And so we just emphasize that. And and then we do little things like, you know, in our in our church culture, we once a month, they have a retreat day where they’re required to go and be alone with Jesus for a whole day. And they’re being paid to do it. Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — It’s their, you know, it’s part of their job. We emphasize a spiritual practice every month, and we’re doing that in all of our groups, and we model that as a staff. Like in January, our spiritual practice is fasting, and we’re about to begin you know a season of prayer and fasting like a lot of churches do in January. And so that’s integrated into everything that we’re doing as a church and to our staff. They’re encouraged to do that, and so we’re just constantly making sure that they’re learning and growing. And then that begins to shape the culture your church. It shapes your ability to actually make disciples in your church. I mean, at the end of the day, if on a scale of 1 to 10, as a follower of Christ, if I’m a five, I can only lead three and fours… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …and I can only attract twos.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then there’s nobody that I can help, right?Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yes.Allen Holmes — Because I’m already at the bottom.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah.Allen Holmes — But if I can be an eight and lead sixes and sevens and attract four and fives, then we can reach down and help the two and threes get up, you know. So my what God is doing in me, and that’s true for everybody on our team, is the greatest contribution they can make, and it brings everybody up. And so that’s just really worked into our culture.Rich Birch — Think at like from a diagnostic point of view. A church calls you up and they feel stuck organizationally. They feel like, man, things are just, they’re not going well. When you take a call like that, is your reflex to go towards, well, where are things with the with the leadership team internally?Rich Birch — Or you know do we start organizationally? Hey, let’s fix a couple of things. Help us talk think Help us think through um how do you handle that kind of conversation? Or how does this conversation inform a conversation like that when it comes your way?Allen Holmes — That’s a great question. I mean, generally my response will be, I’ll tell people really, if you need organizational, just kind of practical, how do I do it information, I just give them some resources, you know, so I’ll send them, go to the Grow Conference. They’re probably the best in the world at it. Rich Birch — Yeah, they're so good.Allen Holmes — They can tell you how to do these different things. But then I want to come back to the thing I think we can help you with is really the soul of your organization, which is a reflection of what God’s doing in you. So let’s talk about who you are as a leader, the way you live your life, the way you lead your staff, the culture that you’re building and creating. Because ultimately, if you get all these systems, but you don’t have culture, culture trumps systems every single time.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And when you get the systems and the culture right, you begin, everybody’s attracted to that. In fact, I think maybe one of the big problems in Western culture, and this is hard to admit, but I think the church has to admit this, is that people, people are not going to church. Church attendance is on decline, but it’s not because people don’t want God. They’re just not convinced they can find him at church.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s so true. Yeah.Allen Holmes — I mean, they’re they’re spiritually hungry, but the cultures of our church, people come into that culture and what they kind of intuitively know is that this doesn’t feel healthy or spiritual. So you can create all the systems you want and send out flyers and do all kinds of things. But if people show up at your church and what they intuitively know is that this isn’t healthy and spiritual, you can’t grow your church. So you have to begin there.Allen Holmes —It’s also true if it is healthy and spiritual, even if your systems are a little suspect, people will tolerate a lot of a lot of that because they’re so spiritually hungry. And I think that’s more true than ever before.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very true. Yeah. Well, yeah, my good friend, Carey Nieuwhof, he says like, man, it would be so sad if people came to our churches and all they found was us, right? You know, at the end of the day, right? Like we were trying to point them to Jesus and as as kind of elementary as it sounds, but it’s just so true.Rich Birch — If there isn’t something happening there that’s bigger than just what they can get anywhere else, why would they come to us? Why would they engage in our churches? Yeah, that’s that’s…Allen Holmes — You know, we just came through Christmas, and and one of the things that I think Protestants miss is is when we think about Christmas, we think about Emmanuel, God with us. We think about the incarnation, God became flesh, and we think that’s something that happened 2,000 years ago. And the truth is, that’s supposed to be true of the church today. We are the body of Christ.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — God in us. And when that’s true, people, when they show up at our churches or show up at our dinner table, they should experience Jesus when they’re with us because we’re becoming more and more like him.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, it’s good.Allen Holmes — And then our life gives validity to our message.Rich Birch — Well, one of the things I’m working on a book for for churches about breaking the 2,000 barrier. And one of the interesting stats that we’ve bumped into is that oftentimes the, when a church breaks the 2,000 barrier, the senior leader and often the senior leadership team have been there for going on two decades, 18 years, 19 years, 22 years. Like it’s just a really common pattern you see.Rich Birch — Now that’s not the perception. Our perception is like, oh, there’s like the just add water mega fast church that just explodes and it all happens. But that actually isn’t the normative pattern. the Normative pattern is it’s it takes a long time. You’ve been at your church for 25 years. Talk us through how longevity, how does that tie into this conversation? How does it tie into the impact you’re seeing, you know, at Definition? Talk us through that.Allen Holmes — Yeah. You know, it’s interesting when I, one of the other real key moments for me is I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon-Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis, in these pressure moments to, you know, expose the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world.Allen Holmes — And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It’s a simple little book, but profound, where he describes leadership development in five stages. And stage one is is a skilled leader where you get a leadership role just based on your skill. So maybe the ability to preach. And so they call you to be the pastor. That’s how I became the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn’t done anything else. But they let me be a pastor because I can preach.Allen Holmes — And then the second stage is a principal leader where you begin to understand why you do what you do. But the third stage, which is so important, is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a choice.Allen Holmes — In that stage, he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work, or he can go back and hide behind his skills and principle. And that’s what pastors do a lot of times. The reason you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this honeymoon season, and then all of a sudden there’s a crisis that exposes some things, and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their skill, rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can advance and become a transformative, redemptive leader. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — So I think one of the things that’s been so true for us is we’ve just tried to say to people, when there’s a crisis, don’t panic, don’t run away, see it as an opportunity.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — In fact, I ended up doing my dissertation on the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders, that it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis. Instead of running from it, they would run to it and open their heart, and God could use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the research said that was true.Allen Holmes — And so we’ve tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something goes wrong, don’t run away and don’t hide.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Let’s run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing, God works redemptively to use it for your benefit and to launch you into your future. And because that’s been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick has been here 25 years. He’s actually here two Sundays longer than I’ve been here. Rich Birch — Love it.Allen Holmes — Eric’s been here 24 years. Jonathan’s been here 19 years. Steve’s been Chelsea’s been here almost this year will be 14 years. Steve’s been here 10 years. I mean, so they’ve just been here a long, long, long time, and that but that’s why, is that they’ve seen these moments and we’ve helped them to find God in it so that actually works for us instead of against us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s great. I love that. You know, I think if more churches, if more leaders had the mindset, even as we led our people that like, hey, if they come to us and it feels like there’s a crisis brewing here, I do feel like our culture is so bent towards like, it’s not just them leaving, it’s us leaving them. It’s like, okay, time’s up, you’re done, like move on. We would never say it that way because we’re better Christians and we know, but but that’s the vibe we give people.Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — And And I do think it’s been interesting as we’ve been looking really from a church growth point of view, this is a really sticky trend that we see that it’s like you, the key leaders have to be here for a long time. And it makes sense on lots of levels. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — This level, it makes sense. It makes sense on just like community influence. Like you you have to be around for a long time. People are super suspicious of the church and they’re not You know, they don’t come like that maybe 30 years ago, people trusted the church. Well, that’s just not true anymore. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — And so when you’re around for a long time that, you know, that makes a difference. And it’s hard to, it’s not like a really pithy bullet point because it’s like, well, just stick around. But it is, it’s critically important to the, you know, to the overall mix.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, that make that reminds me of a couple of things. One, one of the, think, things we have to be careful about today is I think we are doing such a good job of planting churches. We’re all for church planting. We just help the church in our city plant. We’re about to launch somebody out next year to plant under the church. I mean, that’s a fantastic thing, but we’ve gotten so good at it.Allen Holmes — If you’re a 30-year-old and you plant a church and you start with 500 on day one, it could be detrimental to your spiritual journey. And we just have to kind of recognize that.Rich Birch — Talk more about that. Why would that be?Allen Holmes — Well, like when I think about myself, when I came to Definition, we had about 30 people, and we did not average 100 for an entire year until my seventh year here.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — Now, during those seven years, I thought it was the greatest church in America. I mean, we were having a good time, and we were basically a college ministry more than a church back then. When I came, we had an older congregation, but my first Sunday, 15 college students showed up.Rich Birch — Okay.Allen Holmes — And, of course, I was only 26, and so I naturally gravitated towards them. We kind of became this college ministry, and it wasn’t until several years later that they were old enough to get married and start having babies that we actually became a real church. And, uh, but during that time, the truth is God, I just believe God was in that because I was still so young and inexperienced and immature as a man and leader that the last thing I needed was any more success.Allen Holmes — It would have really, success can really blind you to your areas of, you know, where you need really need to grow. In fact, one of the things that you see in several places in Scripture, and one of the things that we tell our church all that time, that the Christian life is a lifelong, transformational journey with Christ. Rich Birch — Yep.Allen Holmes — And you see this in several places in Scripture. Let me give you a couple examples. You think about Joseph. I don’t if you’ve ever thought about this story, but I was preaching on it a couple of years ago, and I realized in this story, there are three times that Joseph has a coat. His first coat as a child is a coat of entitlement, and it needs to be ripped off.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — His next coat was given by Pharaoh. It’s a coat of self-sufficiency. It needs to be ripped off, and Potiphar’s wife took it off. And then third, there’s a coat of anointing where he’s come through this crucible. He’s come through these seasons of pain and struggle and wrestling and and suffering that has produced this character. And now God can elevate him and give him almost unlimited power and authority without the threat of him abusing it.Allen Holmes — Well, without that process, God could never. If God puts any man in that position without that process, it destroys you. I mean, you you’re not prepared. You can’t handle that. You know, tell people all the time that one of the reasons God doesn’t just tell us our future, you know, people are always wanting to know, you know, what’s God going to do?Allen Holmes — And the truth is, if God told us what we were going to be doing in 10 years, we’d try to go there tomorrow. And the process prepares us for our purpose. You cannot bypass the process… Rich Birch — That’s good. Allen Holmes — …and still fulfill your purpose.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — And so God works in that that challenge. I think about Psalm 23, and I think Psalm 23 describes three stages. First stage is that I’m this child. I’m very young and immature in my faith. And then I become this warrior. And then I eventually become friend. But I have to go through the valley of the shadow of death to get up that mountain in order to be a friend of God. Allen Holmes — And there’s no way to bypass that. it’s seeing you You see this over and over and over again in scripture. And it’s just part of our sanctification. It’s the way God works in our lives.Rich Birch — It’s so good.Allen Holmes — Now, one of the things that sometimes somebody might hear all this and they go, well, I know so-and-so. I’ll give you a great example, classic example of this. Chris Hodges is one of the most respected pastors in America.Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.Allen Holmes — And he he has pastored one of the fastest growing churches in in America. But there is a reason he has been so fruitful. And the reason is before he ever became a pastor, he didn’t start that church until he was 40.Allen Holmes — And before becoming that pastor, he’d served under two of the best pastors and two of the strongest churches in America. So he was so much more mature than the average church planter when he started. And I’m 53, I don’t think I’m where Chris was at 40 when he started that church.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — So that was a big advantage in why they’ve been able to be so consistently fruitful for such a long period of time. And we just have to recognize that. And again, that’s why it’s so important that we’re focused on what God is doing in us… Rich Birch — So good. Allen Holmes — …because over time, that’s what produces the best results. It’s just a mature man or woman of God.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Love it. Well, Allen, thank you so much for today’s conversation. This has been a great, it’s been really rich conversation. There’s a lot more we could we could talk about, but I really appreciate you giving us the time today. As we wrap up today’s episode, what any kind of final words you’d give to a leader, as they’re thinking about reflecting on this kind of inner life, leading themselves, you know, trying to align who they are outside with who they are inside. Help us Help us with the kind of final word as we kind of wrap up today’s call.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, I was reading a book recently, and and this quote, I’ve just been meditating on it the last couple of weeks, and it the quote is, God loves us as we are, not as we should be, for none of us are as we should be.Rich Birch — It’s good. Oh wow that's good.Allen Holmes — And I say that just to say I think so many pastors are trying so hard like the older brother in the prodigal story. They’re trying so hard to work for God and to prove something. And I just think we got to begin with falling in love with him and trust he’s better at producing than we are. And if we just fall in love with Jesus and allow him to make us more like that father, his kids will come running home.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — because they’re looking for fathers. They’re they’re looking for that place of grace and life and hope. And so that characterizes who we are in our soul. And people are just so attracted to that. So I would just say to all the pastors and leaders listening, God is crazy about you. You can’t do anything about that. You don’t have to earn it and none of us deserve it. And if we can learn to really receive that and fall in love with Jesus again, it just changes everything.Rich Birch — So good. Well, sir, I appreciate you being on today’s episode. If people want, if we want to send people online somewhere to track with you or with definition, where do we want to send them so they they could connect with you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, they can just Google Definition Church. And I do have a website. There’s not much on it yet. There’s probably not anything there that’s going to help them. But I need to do a better job of developing some content and getting it out there. But the best place to look would be just to go to our website. There are some resources there for churches.Rich Birch — That’s great.Allen Holmes — And of course, you know, we’d love to hear from them. And we really appreciate you just letting us, inviting us to be on the show today and to get to encourage leaders is such a such a privilege.Rich Birch — No, I appreciate you. I just want to honor you. You know, publicly. We reach out to churches like this, frankly, because you end up on the fastest growing church list. And we’re like, hey, what’s God using? And I love where this conversation went today. I think super helpful for people. So thanks so much, Allen. Appreciate being on today.Allen Holmes — Thanks, Rich. Have a great day.

ChatGPT can generate a sermon manuscript faster than you can brew your morning coffee. But should it?In this episode of the Church Tech Today Podcast, host Kenny Jahng breaks down Carey Nieuwhof's recent message on the ethics of AI in ministry, and the 4 dangers every pastor needs to hear before letting algorithms into the pulpit.From stunted spiritual formation to a subtle form of plagiarism, Nieuwhof argues that bypassing the hard work of sermon prep doesn't just shortchange your congregation—it shortchanges you.In this episode:Why the grind of sermon prep is a feature, not a bugThe “unwritten contract” you might be breaking with your churchHow AI-generated content loses authentic resonanceThe long-term cost to your authority as a teacherCarey isn't anti-tech, but he is pro-human.And this conversation is one every pastor using AI needs to have. Watch Nieuwhof's full video and read more at ChurchTechToday.com: https://churchtechtoday.com/4-warnings-about-ai-carey-nieuwhof-makes-to-preachers/

In this episode, Hannah Augustine interviews leadership coach and pastor James Duvall to explore the essential skills of self-leadership, time management, and personal growth. Whether you're volunteering, bi-vocational, or part of a larger team, you'll gain actionable insights to develop your KidMin capacity and impact.Use promo code KIDZMATTER at thegoodbook.com for 30% off on It's Good to Be a Boy and It's Good to Be a Girl. For personalized coaching, email hannah@kidzmatter.com. Connect with James and Lisa Duvall at artofspousing.com. You can read At Your Best by Carey Nieuwhof wherever books are sold.

In this episode of Leaders in Living Rooms, Sean Morgan sits down with Carey Nieuwhof to unpack one of the most significant moments facing the Church today: a rising Gen Z openness to faith paired with a looming leadership and succession crisis. Drawing from recent data, lived experience, and decades of leadership development, Carey challenges older generations to release authority sooner, create real opportunities for younger leaders, and rethink how leadership is developed—not just trained. The conversation also tackles under-discussed trends, including the quiet disengagement of women from church life, the creator economy's impact on ministry, and what it truly means to build organizations that grow beyond their founders. Welcome to Episode 152 of the Leaders in Living Rooms Podcast with Sean Morgan.

Why can't leaders win anymore? No matter what you say, someone's upset. In this conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, host of one of today's most influential leadership podcasts, we unpack why 49 hours a week on our phones has created 100 different experiences in a room of 100 people. From the woman who won't use plastic cutlery to why your weird uncle believes conspiracy theories, we explore how discipleship by algorithm is fragmenting society. We also talk about the false immediacy of social media, why high performers have the strongest inner critics, the Mount Rushmore of books we recommend, and what it takes to build relationships with people you admire without jumping levels of intimacy. Plus, Carey shares why the work is the reward, how he retaught himself to read books, and why he's pursuing mastery in his 60s. If you're a leader trying to navigate this fragmented world, this conversation is for you.The Art Of Leadership AcademyIn This Episode:Grab your very own Soundtracks: The Conversations Card DeckMake sure to follow me on Instagram and share with your friends!Keep up with my book list on GoodReads!Sign up for my newsletter, Try This!Book me to speak at your event or to your team!You can grab a copy of my book All It Takes Is a Goal from your favorite bookstore or at my website!Sign up for the Remarkable You Community today!Sign up for the Remarkable You Community today!

Apply to Join Churchfront Premium Apply to Join Churchfront Pro Free Worship and Production Toolkit Shop Our Online Courses Join us at the Churchfront Conference Follow Churchfront on Instagram or TikTok: @churchfront Follow on Twitter: @realchurchfront Gear we use to make videos at Churchfront Musicbed SyncID: MB01VWQ69XRQNSN   Carey Nieuwhof Interview - Podcast Notes Overview Conversation with Carey Nieuwhof about the shift in modern church worship from entertainment-focused to encounter-focused experiences, live streaming strategy, and church growth in the digital age. Key Themes 1. The Shift: Entertainment vs. Encounter The Problem with Modern Church Production Social media created a "copycat phase" where churches could suddenly see what megachurches were doing Churches adopted same equipment, same songs, same production values What was unique became ubiquitous - "we all became copies of each other" Gen Z is "the most marketed to generation in human history" and numb to production Quote: "Gen Z is the most marketed to generation in human history. And we're all kind of numb to the production. I don't think people are looking for hype. They're looking for hope." What People Actually Want Something real and tangible An experience of God, not just information about God Presence, not just presentation Transformation over information The Internet's Limitation Really good at delivering information (especially with AI) Cannot facilitate an encounter "There's something that happens in the room that doesn't happen online" 2. What "Encounter Over Entertainment" Looks Like The Tonal Shift Worship leaders being more sensitive to what's happening in the room, not just rehearsed transitions Preachers leaving space, not just hitting time marks Paying attention to what God might be doing (people crying, leaning in, visible reactions) Creating space to breathe Silence and Space "When I started in ministry, my goal was to get rid of as much silence in church as I could" Now: "Where else are you going to get silence? You don't get it unless you're in church" Don't have to fill every moment with words Can be silent or "noodle" on instruments while creating space Quote: "People's lives are so noisy and so crowded. I mean, we don't even sleep without white noise machines or anything like that. So where else are you going to get silence?" Evoke vs. Manipulate Can't plan a revival - it happens or it doesn't Job is to "set the table" and make space for the Holy Spirit Example: Great movies evoke genuine tears by accessing real emotions Cheap manipulation feels different Quote: "It's not our job as Christians to manipulate. It's our job possibly to evoke, to say, 'I'm going to set the table. I can't control the Holy Spirit.'" 3. The Liturgy Issue Modern Church is "Liturgically Malnourished" Liturgy = order of service (not an outdated term) Modern church handles joy and praise well Missing: contemplation, confession, lamentation, reflection Lost practices: prayers of confession, prayers of the people Carey's Confession Presbyterian background included prayers of approach and confession As church became attractional, prayer became "just an opportunity to clear the set for the sermon" Regrets thin prayers: "God, it's so good to be here today. We thank you so much. Amen." Quote: "It's like confess your sins to one another and you will be healed. We don't do that anymore. What if we did that?" Not Either/Or, But Both/And Keep good lighting, sound, production, and musicians who can play Add breathing room, texture, color, tone, mood Use liturgical calendar and historic practices adapted to modern context Don't approach Sunday as "slots to fill" Creative Freedom 52 Sundays = 52 blank canvases Already do this well at Easter and Christmas Can be more creative without confusing people Example: Good Friday Service Ended in darkness with no announcement Faded to black and stayed there People sat in uncomfortable silence, then slowly left "I wanted them to feel that discomfort... if you can even get a small sampling of that" Easter Sunday picked up in darkness, then sunrise/resurrection 4. Live Streaming Strategy Who Should Live Stream? Not every church needs to live stream everything Need good musicians to sound great online (around 400-500 attendance to have talent base) Need separate mix for online vs. in-house Poor production = "school play" - only interesting to those directly involved Quote: "A lot of churches, and these are well-meaning, beautiful Christian people. If you don't have the talent in production or in worship, you sound like a school play." Alternatives Stream just the message On-demand after, mixed in post-production Audio only if video isn't good Consider what strangers stumbling on feed would think The Discovery Argument Pre-COVID minority of churches streamed Now "everybody you want to reach is online" "All of non-Christian America, all the nuns, all the duns, all the atheists, all the agnostics, they're on the internet" Can't remember last time truly unchurched person hadn't watched online for weeks/months before visiting The New Foyer Online is now the foyer, not the physical lobby People investigate online before visiting By the time they show up, they're ready to go "further, faster" "They've already done their investigating. They've already asked ChatGPT all the questions" 5. Practical Service Design Handling Growth Pressure Multiple services create pressure to program everything tightly Solution: Trim 5 minutes from sermon Do 60-minute service with breathing room between Create more lobby/connection space Leverage outdoor space (if climate allows) Worship Set Strategy Don't need extended mix of everything Maybe two songs and a tag instead of three full songs "Sit in the tag for a while" Find the high-impact moments (example: bridge of "How Great Is Our God") Get to what matters, like talent shows do 90-second versions Quote: "You don't have to do the extended mix of everything, the seven minute version, do the tag. That would be great. Space is something that you can do in three minutes if you know how to do it well." Service Flow Examples Don't make people stand and greet (where else does that happen?) Have emotionally intelligent people on doors, not just available people Greet people the way THEY want to be greeted Consider kids moments, announcements, communion as natural transitions Call to commitment/involvement comes sooner now than 10 years ago 6. Online Presence Best Practices Website Design Design for new people first Show service times and location prominently (mobile friendly) Staff page is #3 most viewed - people want to see "are there people like me?" Use accurate photos (don't show 27-year-olds if congregation is 70+) Show actual diversity if you have it Quote (Seth Godin): "Culture is people like us do things like this. So what people are looking for, are there people like us?" Content Strategy Lead with best sermons, not just latest Most popular videos should be easy to find People don't care if it's from 2 years ago (still watching The Office) Have robust FAQ section for unchurched questions Position yourself for lost people, not just members 7. The Current Moment The Harvest is Ripe People are seeking more than maybe in past decade or two Culture is saturated with production - not the competitive edge anymore Mental health crisis caused by social media People desperate for something real What to Do Pray for it (spiritual activity) Make newcomer journey easy Take them somewhere when they show up Go deeper faster - they're ready Quote: "People come to church looking to find God, but sometimes all they find is us. They found a really cool song, they found a really great message, but they didn't actually find God in the midst of it." Give Them Meat Reference to Tara-Lee Cobble and The Bible Recap Provide historical context (helps Christians AND non-Christians) Don't be afraid to go deep on sin, gospel, redemption Write/speak in accessible "street Greek" like the New Testament Example Opening: "Hey, we're going back 3000 years. And there was a guy named David who was King of Israel. He was trying to keep the kingdom united because there was a north and a south. You can relate to that. These are divided times..." Quote (Tim Keller): "It's worse than you can possibly imagine and better than you can possibly dream." 8. Leadership Advice For Young Church Staff (25-40) Navigating Frustration with Leadership Write down actual issues you're facing (budget, staffing, expertise) Present respectfully, thoughtfully, submissively Good leaders will either provide resources or adjust priorities Identifying Toxic Culture Unrealistic expectations Unsympathetic to staff needs Expects 60-hour weeks with no life Toxic leader will get mad/defensive when approached Options in Toxic Environment Respectfully approach and share difficulties Accept the glass ceiling and stay Build healthy team within unhealthy body (temporary solution) Leave - "unhealthy bodies drive out healthy cells" Interview Questions for New Positions Ask to talk to current staff (not the pastor) Ask to talk to FORMER staff Find out who left and why Read Google reviews Have meals/experiences together (reveals character under pressure) Quote: "Ask around, ask if you have permission. Don't ask the pastor. Don't ask the pastor. Are you healthy? The toxic people, 'I'm so healthy.'" 9. Team Building & Growth Hiring Philosophy Only hire A players C players: you know immediately (late, unmotivated, incomplete work) - should be gone B players: good but not great - "it's too bad but we'll survive" A players: if they quit you'd need 3 people to replace them Quote (Netflix): "Adequate performance gets you a generous severance package." A Player Test If they knocked on the door saying "this is my last day," how do you react? C player: "Thank goodness, now I don't have to fire them" B player: "Too bad but we'll survive" A player: "Grabbing the waste basket and throwing up" Growth Wisdom Don't settle on staff because you're panicking Will eventually become bloated with no profit Profit = "permission to do this again tomorrow" (Seth Godin) Most businesses fail not from lack of vision but lack of cash Use tools like Working Genius to find right fit Don't just find A players - find A players with gifts your team needs Cultural Values Write them down and review regularly Ritz-Carlton: 26 values, reviewed 2-3 daily in team meetings Use to evaluate: "Where are we winning/losing with our values?" Catch team members exemplifying values Values help instill culture as org chart grows 10. Upcoming Projects Carey's New Book Topic: AI and the Future Church Thesis: "As the world becomes more artificial, we need to become more human as Christians" Church's future direction is human connection Expected publication: 2026 Latest Book "At Your Best" - about time, energy, and priorities Notable Statistics & Data Points 72% of teenagers have tried AI chatbots 31% prefer AI companionship to human companions Pre-COVID: minority of churches streamed services Can't recall single unchurched person who didn't watch online for weeks/months before visiting Around 400-500 attendance: churches start having talent base for good production 80-95% of church growth in America is conversion growth (not transfer) Top 3 website pages: Homepage, Messages, Staff/About Production Quality Basics Good Enough to Stream Great singing (doesn't need to be phenomenal) Decent lights Pretty good mix Can work with church of 150-200 with good coaching Everything else can be helped with technology Bare Minimum Great guitarist + great vocalist = "off to the races" Don't feel pressure to have full mediocre band Add musicians as you find/afford great ones Practical Takeaways Create space in services - silence, breathing room, sensitivity to the room Recover lost liturgical practices - confession, lamentation, contemplation Go deeper faster - people are ready for meat, not just milk Design for online discovery - unchurched people are investigating you Lead with best content - not just latest content Only hire A players - don't panic hire when growing Build real human connection - counter to increasingly artificial world Make newcomer journey easy - they're ready to engage quickly Be creative with 52 Sundays - not just slots to fill Focus on encounter over entertainment - production supports experience, doesn't replace it Questions for Further Reflection How can we create more space for confession in our services? What would it look like to "evoke" rather than "manipulate" in worship? Are we positioning our online presence for unchurched discovery? Is our production supporting encounter or replacing it? What emotions are people carrying into our services, and how do we acknowledge that? Are we moving too fast for the Holy Spirit to work? Memorable Quotes "I don't think people are looking for hype. They're looking for hope." "People aren't looking for more information. They're looking for presence, not just presentation." "The internet is really good at information, especially with AI. You want to know anything, you can find out anything, but the internet can't really facilitate an encounter." "It's not our job as Christians to manipulate. It's our job possibly to evoke." "Where else are you going to get silence? You don't get it unless you're in church." "If you don't have the talent in production or in worship, you sound like a school play." "Everybody you want to reach is online." "Your foyer has moved online." "People come to church looking to find God, but sometimes all they find is us." "As the world becomes more artificial, we need to become more human as Christians." "Adequate performance gets you a generous severance package." "Profit is permission to do this again tomorrow."

Where is student ministry going in the future? What are the trends we need to be paying attention to in our churches, and what should we be doing with the research we're seeing? On this episode of Student Ministry Connection, we're kicking off 2026 focusing on the future of student ministry and how God might just be setting us up for something big.   Links referenced in this episode:  Listen to or watch Carey Nieuwhof's episode on 2026 church trends at https://careynieuwhof.com/episode777  Read Carey's report at http://2026churchtrends.com  Learn more about Steve's ministry with NNYM at https://nnym.org/stevecullum  Sign up to get Steve's newsletter at https://bit.ly/cullumnewsletter  Support the ministry by giving online at https://bit.ly/cullumsupport  Contact Steve about partnerships, speaking, coaching, or consulting at https://bit.ly/cullumcontact  Follow Student Ministry Connection on Instagram: https://instagram.com/studentministryconnection  Read Steve's blog at https://stevecullum.com  Follow Steve on Twitter: https://twitter.com/stevecullum  Follow Steve on Instagram: https://instagram.com/stevecullum  Follow Steve on Facebook: https://facebook.com/stevecullum    Be sure to join us in prayer for revival every Wednesday at 11am PT, 12pm MT, 1pm CT, 2pm ET.    Find your next speaker at The Speaker Hub - https://youthminhub.com/speakerhub    Get a copy of the Cards Christians Like card game by using the link https://bit.ly/cardschristianslike and also support Student Ministry Connection.    Note: Some of the links above are affiliate links. By clicking them, Steve may receive commission to support this ministry.    Subscribe on your favorite podcast app. Links to the more popular ones are at https://linktr.ee/studentministryconnection     If you like what you hear, be sure to like, subscribe, share, and comment! Thanks, be sure to get connected, and may God bless your ministry!    

Carey Nieuwhof unveils 7 disruptive church trends to track in 2026. The trends include Gen Z leading a surge in young church attendance and a rise in women exiting the Christian faith. Plus, Carey discusses discipleship by algorithm and why that makes it impossible to lead people with harmony.

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Are you living at your best—or simply getting by? For many believers, chronic exhaustion has become a quiet norm. Yet Scripture reminds us that burnout isn't a badge of honor. It's a warning light. When life feels out of balance, it may be a sign we're pushing beyond the limits God lovingly designed for our good.Today, we sat down with Carey Nieuwhof—pastor, bestselling author of At Your Best: How to Get Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor, leadership expert, and host of the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast, as well as the founding pastor of Connexus Church—to talk about how Christians can pursue biblical rest and renewed purpose. Carey's insights come not from theory, but from the deepest valley of personal experience.When Success Masks ExhaustionCarey's story began two decades ago, during a season of explosive ministry growth. His church was thriving, opportunities were multiplying, and by every outward measure, life was “on top.” But amid this success, his inner world was collapsing.After returning from a high-profile speaking event, Carey hit a wall:“It was like I fell off a cliff. I lost motivation, passion, and energy. I met all the symptoms of clinical depression. My body declared a finish line I had refused to acknowledge.”People around him saw the signs. He didn't. And that's often the story behind burnout—others notice the warning lights long before we do.Carey describes burnout as “the gap between what you're capable of and what you're carrying.” Early in ministry, he assumed that increasing responsibility meant increasing hours. It was an unsustainable equation.Yet today, two decades later, he leads a much larger platform with far more influence—without living exhausted. Why? Because he restructured his life around a biblical rhythm of rest, limits, and intentional focus.Managing Energy, Not Just TimeMany Christians feel that better time management will fix their overload. But as Carey points out, time is a fixed asset—everyone gets the same 24 hours. Energy, however, rises and falls.Every person has what Carey calls a “green zone”—a few hours each day when they are at their best mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. For him, it's morning. For others, it might be midday or evening.His challenge is simple: Do what you're best at when you're at your best.When he writes in his green zone, he gets exponential results. When he tries the same work in his “red zone,” productivity crashes. This principle applies to everyone—from CEOs to parents, pastors, and business owners.Stewarding energy also requires boundaries. That means saying no—not out of selfishness, but out of faithfulness.Carey explains:Saying yes to every request eventually forces you to say no to the people who matter most.Delegation is a spiritual discipline.Some opportunities, even good ones, don't align with God's call in a particular season.By categorizing his decisions—like eliminating breakfast meetings that compete with his green zone—Carey reclaimed the margin he had been missing for years.Rest Is Not a Reward—It's DesignFor many Christians, rest feels like something we “earn” after working ourselves to the edge. But biblically, rest is part of our calling.Carey describes Sabbath not just as rehab after exhaustion, but prehab—something that prepares and strengthens us for faithful work. He points to the way elite athletes build rhythms of sleep, diet, and intentional recovery before they step onto the court.Even God modeled this for us—delighting in His creation and resting not from exhaustion but from joyful completeness.For Carey, the principles of rest and margin extend well beyond the calendar.A free Saturday protects family time. A healthy emergency fund protects the home from crisis. Limits are not restrictions—they are blessings that allow us to flourish.Margin creates room to love well, give freely, and listen to God's direction.Living at Your BestCarey's journey from burnout to renewal is a grace-filled reminder: God never asked us to outrun His design.He calls us to work diligently, rest faithfully, and live within the good limits He created for our flourishing. Carey's whole story—and the principles he teaches in his book At Your Best—offer a roadmap for anyone seeking balance, health, and spiritual renewal.For more wisdom from Carey Nieuwhof, explore his book At Your Best and visit the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. And if you're an advisor, he'll be joining us at Redeeming Money, our conference for financial professionals, in February.May you learn to live—not at your limit—but at your best, in the freedom and rest God provides.On Today's Program, Rob Answers Listener Questions:Can you explain the pros and cons of taking Social Security at 62 versus waiting until full retirement age? By 62, I'll be mostly debt-free, and since longevity doesn't run in my family, I'm wondering if it makes sense to claim early while my quality of life is higher and still work within the income limits.When should someone update their will? I'm 58, debt-free, still working, and have a solid 401(k). Should I consider setting up a trust, and how do I know when that becomes the wise choice, especially since it costs more?Resources Mentioned:Faithful Steward: FaithFi's Quarterly Magazine (Become a FaithFi Partner)At Your Best: How to Get Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor by Carey NieuwhofDidn't See It Coming: Overcoming the Seven Greatest Challenges That No One Expects and Everyone Experiences by Carey NieuwhofThe Carey Nieuwhof Leadership PodcastRedeeming Money 2026: A Kingdom Advisors ConferenceWisdom Over Wealth: 12 Lessons from Ecclesiastes on MoneyLook At The Sparrows: A 21-Day Devotional on Financial Fear and AnxietyRich Toward God: A Study on the Parable of the Rich FoolFind a Certified Kingdom Advisor (CKA)FaithFi App Remember, you can call in to ask your questions every workday at (800) 525-7000. Faith & Finance is also available on Moody Radio Network and American Family Radio. You can also visit FaithFi.com to connect with our online community and partner with us as we help more people live as faithful stewards of God's resources. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Leadership, especially in ministry, can be lonely.  In this conversation, I got to sit down in person with pastor, bestselling author, and leadership expert, Carey Nieuwhof. We were surrounded by a room full of pastors and ministry leaders to talk about what it really looks like to lead well without losing your soul. We talk about the difference between real friendships and deal friendships, how to spot false intimacy, and why real connection matters more than ever. At the end, you'll also hear some honest questions from the room. The kind every leader wrestles with but rarely says out loud. It's a real, hope-filled conversation for anyone who leads, loves the church, or just wants to follow Jesus well between your Sundays.  Subscribe to The Conversation on YouTube and watch the full interview with Carey: youtube.com/@adamaweber  Sign up for The Crew: adamweber.com/thecrew     Thanks to our amazing partners on this episode:  First Interstate Bank has a mission to help people and their money work better together. They do this by ensuring clients can manage their money conveniently wherever they are while also providing the friendly service. They have over 300 locations throughout 14 states! For more information and to find a location near you, visit firstinterstatebank.com Vern Eide Motorcars is a growing employee-owned company that offers sales, service, and financing of automotive, motorcycle, and power sports lines, including Acura, Ford, Chevy, GMC, Honda, Hyundai and Mitsubishi brands. Whether you live locally or across the country, visit verneide.com      

It's no secret that leaders are often tasked with the challenge of leading people and organizations with unhealthy cultures. Drawing from years of pastoral and organizational experience, Carey Nieuwhof shares his theologically driven insights on how leaders can cultivate healthy leadership in unhealthy cultures. Resources: You may also like https Uncovering What Drives You by Mike Foster Create a free THINQ Account and download the THINQ Media app on your smart TV to access more trusted content like this on topics from all channels of culture at thinqmedia.com. Apply the THINQ Framework as you think through cultural topics. Attend THINQ events where you can gather with like-minded leaders, ask better questions and have conversations that lead to wisdom: Unlock the THINQ Summit 2025 All-Access Pass before it's released to the public Host a THINQ Family conversation series in your home:  Let's Talk Civility Let's Talk Relationships Let's Talk Mental Health Let's Talk Tech Detox More from the THINQ Podcast Network: Rhythms for Life with Rebekah and Gabe Lyons The InFormed Parent with Suzanne Phillips NextUp with Grant Skeldon NeuroFaith with Curt Thompson UnderCurrent with Gabe Lyons Now on YouTube! Subscribe, Like and Share: THINQ Media UnderCurrent with Gabe Lyons NextUp with Grant Skeldon Rhythms for Life with Rebekah and Gabe Lyons The InFormed Parent with Suzanne Phillips

In this episode, Chestly Lunday sits down with Carey Nieuwhof — pastor, author, and host of The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast — to talk about how churches and leaders can stay healthy and innovative in a rapidly changing world.Carey unpacks why most great ideas have a five-to-seven-year shelf life, how leaders can navigate the “second S-curve” without losing their identity, and why humility and curiosity are key to long-term influence. They dive into the future of church models — from micro-expressions to digital communities — and explore how to build platforms that serve a mission instead of egos.Whether you're a pastor, entrepreneur, or digital innovator, this conversation will challenge you to rethink what growth, character, and calling look like in the new era of church leadership.Resources and Links Mentioned in this Episode:Reliant Mission: reliant.org/cppNewBreed TrainingThanks for listening to the church planter podcast. We're here to help you go where no one else is going and do what no one else is doing to reach people, no one else is reaching.Make sure to review and subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast service to help us connect with more church planters.

Guest speaker, Carey Nieuwhof, brings a message on burnout.#iamembraceEmbrace is one church, made up of multiple campuses and network churches. We exist to relentlessly reach the next person for Jesus.Give Herehttps://www.iamembrace.com/giveStay ConnectedWebsite: iamembrace.comEmbrace Church Facebook: facebook.com/iamembraceEmbrace Church Instagram: instagram.com/iamembraceAdam Weber YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@adamaweber Adam Weber Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/adamaweberAdam Weber Instagram: instagram.com/adamaweber

There's a kind of faith that performs instead of worships, and eventually, that kind of faith breaks down. This week on Win Today, Paul and Hannah McClure from Bethel Music join me to talk about the slow drift from softness to cynicism in the life of a believer. We talk about the orphan spirit, fake faith that looks right but can't hold weight, and how disappointment left untreated eventually hardens into disconnection. We also confront the myth that faith equals certainty, and why true worship isn't just a song; it's surrender in the absence of clarity. For anyone who's battled disillusionment in church, questioned the language of worship, or wondered whether they're singing words they don't believe anymore, this conversation offers both confrontation and comfort. Paul and Hannah don't sugarcoat the road. But they do point to healing. This isn't about emotional hype. It's about reclaiming your heart before it turns cold. You'll learn: Why disappointment often precedes cynicism What the orphan spirit really is—and how it forms How fake faith is often learned, not chosen Why worship without surrender is just noise How to walk with God when certainty disappears Guest Bio Paul and Hannah McClure are worship leaders, songwriters, and pastors with Bethel Music. Known for their vulnerability, depth, and refusal to perform, their ministry helps people reconnect with a God who isn't afraid of pain. They've led a generation to encounter God through honesty, not hype. Their story is one of surrender, resilience, and the long journey back from burnout, cynicism, and emotional numbness. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

There's a way to sound spiritually mature while staying completely unformed, and therapy culture is helping people do just that. This week on Win Today, Matt Chandler joins us to confront the drift we're experiencing: where therapy culture replaces repentance, where identity confusion isn't grieved, and where safe Christian jargon sounds right but does nothing to transform the soul. We talk about why discipleship doesn't always feel safe. Why comfort doesn't heal—it sedates. And how complaining isn't just venting; it's forming your view of God. Matt names the thin theology that's left people chasing emotional relief instead of spiritual formation. This conversation doesn't throw stones at therapy. But it does confront what happens when comfort becomes your gospel and language becomes your liturgy. If you've traded formation for slogans, been discipled more by feelings than by truth, or confused Christian language with actual obedience, this conversation isn't just timely—it's necessary. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

We want God to come through, but on our terms. We demand ease, favor, instant breakthrough, and validation, and when those expectations aren't met, we call it a trial. But what if the real trial is our refusal to lay down our entitlement? This week on Win Today, bestselling author Gary Thomas pulls no punches. He exposes the modern lie that faith means personal fulfillment, that comfort means favor, and that hardship means failure. And he shows how distraction is more than a bad habit—it's a spiritual breakdown. Because when the soul loses its focus, bitterness, offense, and relational dysfunction are not far behind. If you've ever felt spiritually entitled, subtly bitter, or confused about why you're still offended by things you “moved past,” this conversation is for you. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

271. Ways to Engage with Youth, Teens, and Gen Z in Church and at Home with Dr. Kara Powell   *Transcription Below*   1 Thessalonians 2:8 NIV "so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well."   Kara Powell, PhD, is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and the founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. Named by Christianity Today as one of "50 Women to Watch," Kara serves as a youth and family strategist for Orange, and she also speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences. Kara has authored or coauthored numerous books, including Faith Beyond Youth Group, 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future, 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, Growing With, Growing Young, The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family, and the entire Sticky Faith series.   Kara and her husband, Dave, are regularly inspired by the learning and laughter that come from their three young adult children.   Questions and Topics We Cover: What insights do you have to share on Gen-Z? When it comes to navigating intergenerational tensions, how can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? In your most recent book, entitled, Future-Focused Church, you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead. What led you to that realization?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 127 Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw 2 God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with Author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, Annie Chapman   Stories Sampler from The Savvy Sauce Stories Series: 233 Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel 235 Stories Series: Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer 242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel 245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow 246 Stories Series: Experiencing God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.    I am so honored to introduce my guest for today, Dr. Kara Powell. She is the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute. She's also founder of the 10x10 Collaboration and named by today as one of 50 women to watch. She is also extremely humble and insightful as she's going to discuss how we can leverage the power of stories and questions in our relationships at church and in our family and in beyond, and this is to model the life of Jesus. Make sure you also stay tuned in through the end because she's going to share a plethora of conversations and questions specifically to ask when we're engaging in conversation with young people, whether that's our own children and teens or our grandchildren or people in the community or our churches. It's some questions that you don't want to miss. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kara.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:07 - 2:09) Oh, it's so good to be with you and your audience, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (2:09 - 2:13) Well, I'd love for you just to first give us a snapshot of your current life and share what's led you to the work that you get to do today.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:14 - 4:06) Yeah, absolutely. So, let's see. I'll start with family. Dave and I have been married for I think 27-ish years, and we have three kids who are 24, 22, and 19.   Our youngest is a college freshman, and so we're technically empty nesters, but I actually like the term open nesters better because our kids come back, which we love. They come back in the summers and sometimes after college. And we actually, since I live in Pasadena, California, which had the fires in January, we actually have another 22-year-old young woman living with us, which we love.   So, we love having my husband, Dave, and I love having young people around, whether it's our own three kids or the young woman who's living with us. And I'm also a faculty member at Fuller Seminary, and while I certainly teach periodically, my main roles at Fuller actually have to do with leadership beyond Fuller. I'm the chief of leadership formation at Fuller, so I oversee all of Fuller's non-degree offerings, and then I'm the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, which is a research center that studies the faith of adolescents.   And I love that question, what got me to the work that I do today? Well, God would be the answer to that, but I was a long-term youth pastor here in Southern California at two different churches, loved teenagers, and Fuller was getting ready to start a new research center that was going to listen to the needs of parents and leaders, and then do research to answer those needs. And that really intrigued me, because I love young people, and I love research, and I love real-life ministry and family.   And so, I thought, well, I would love to hear more about that center, and I've been at Fuller now for over 20 years.   Laura Dugger: (4:07 - 4:17) Wow, that's incredible. And quick side note, I'm just so sorry for everything that you all endured in January with all the fires.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:17 - 4:39) Yeah, it's heartbreaking, and in some ways, in many ways, devastating. And I'm grateful for how God is working through churches and working through God's people. So, there's all sorts of bright spots in the midst of the pain.   But yes, please pray that churches and God's people would be salt and light, because it's going to be a few years of rebuilding.   Laura Dugger: (440 - 4:43) Yes, Lord Jesus, may that be true. Amen.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:43 - 4:44) Yeah, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (4:45 - 5:17) And I know with your background, you've studied practical theology, and you also have this broad knowledge of psychology. But some churches haven't studied psychology as much, and so I think that typically leads to less of an appreciation for it. But my fear is that they may miss out if they completely ignore it.   So, will you share some of the benefits that you've seen that come from applying God's truth from any of theologies?   Dr. Kara Powell: (5:17 - 8:14) Yeah, yeah. Well, at Fuller Seminary, we have two schools. One is our School of Mission and Theology, which I'm an alum of and a faculty member in.   And the other is our School of Psychology. And so, Laura, you asked a question that's right at the heart of what we love about training leaders and therapists. And in fact, my favorite statue at Fuller, the title of it is Planting the Cross in the Heart of Psychology.   And that's exactly what we believe. So, you know, God's made us as holistic people. And I love thinking both about how is our theology driving us as well as our psychology.   And you know, one way to think about our psychology, a colleague of mine at Fuller talks about people's losses and longings. And that phrase has been so helpful for me. Like, what are people's losses and longings?   And how is that connected with how they're responding? So, so much of our work at the Fuller Youth Institute relates to young people. And I remember coaching a senior pastor who was experiencing a lot of resistance to prioritizing young people from senior adults.   And what the senior pastor realized is, of course, I shouldn't say of course, but in this particular church, when he was saying we need to prioritize young people, those over 60 felt like, wait, that means I'm not going to be a priority. People who are older often already feel that here in US culture. And so, no wonder that was intimidating, that was threatening, that felt like a loss to those senior adults.   And so, I love what the senior pastor ended up doing is he implemented one of our principles of change that we recommend, which is people support what they create. And so, if you want to build ownership, then how can you involve as many people as possible in creating whatever you're trying to develop? And so, the senior pastor went to the senior adults and apologized for sending a message that, you know, made them feel like they were not going to be priority.   And instead, he said, how can we make this church a church that your grandkids would love to be part of? And that connected with those, you know, post 60, most of whom were grandparents, whether their grandkids live locally, or, you know, globally, they wanted their church to be a place where their grandkids and other young people would connect. And so, you know, he turned senior adults feeling like they were peripheral, to really feeling like they were partners in what God was doing in the church.   And so, yes, I would invite us all to think about what are people's losses and longings? And how is that contributing to how they're responding to whatever we're all experiencing?   Laura Dugger: (8:15 - 10:20) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. 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During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication and more.   I've stayed on Winshape before and I can attest to their generosity, food and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, windshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Well, Kara, you've also done so much research on young people and just in general, I'd love to hear what insights do you have on Gen Z?   Dr. Kara Powell: (10:20 - 14:16) Yeah, yeah. Well, we at the Fuller Youth Institute, we have spent a lot of time studying and doing research on Gen Z, which tends to be those who are 14, 15 and up. Our very youngest teenagers are all actually now Gen Alpha, but we'll talk about Gen Z.   And as we've looked at the research, we've landed on three words which we think well describe Gen Z. First, they are anxious. And if we look at young people today, they do have unprecedented levels of mental health challenges, anxiety, depression, stress, even suicidal thoughts.   And so, we do a lot of training to help parents and leaders understand mental health and how they can be a safe space and get young people the help they need. So, this is an anxious generation. This is an adaptive generation.   This generation is so creative and entrepreneurial and visionary. You know, while there's a lot of downsides to technology, technology also helps young people know more about what's wrong in the world and sometimes take steps to make what is wrong right and restore God's justice to our world. And so, this is an adaptive and creative generation.   And then in addition to being anxious and adaptive, this is a diverse generation. Here in the U.S., we crossed a line in 2020. In the midst of everything else that happened in 2020, we crossed a line where now 50% of those under 18 are young people of color.   So, for your audience to just keep that in mind that 50% of those under 18 are white and 50% are young people of color and that percentage of young people of color is likely going to continue to grow. So, I would say those are three key attributes to this generation. And then, you know, when it comes to what this generation is experiencing spiritually, I really appreciate what my friend and fellow podcaster Carey Nieuwhof has described with young people that they are both in revival and retreat.   And, you know, we see data for both. There's so much that's encouraging about how young people are responding to Jesus. They're open to Jesus.   We're seeing this especially on college campuses. They're responding in mass on college campuses in some really beautiful ways. Both InterVarsity and Crew are seeing that.   But then this generation is also in some ways distancing themselves from the institutional church. Springtide Research Institute did some study of 13- to 25-year-olds and found that 13- to 25-year-olds in the U.S. are almost three times as likely to say they've been hurt by organized religion as trust organized religion. So, our 13- to 25-year-olds are distrustful, a little cynical about institutional religion.   And so, we have our work cut out for us to build trust back. And let me just say, sadly, we have earned young people's lack of trust by the way that by our moral failures, by the way that we have not been as loving as Jesus wants us to be and as young people want us to be. And so, the good news is the way that we re-earn trust with young people is by little acts of kindness and consistency.   So, anybody listening can rebuild trust with a young person. The research on trust shows it's not about heroic acts. It's about sending a text and saying, hey, I'm praying for you.   It's about remembering a young person's name at church. It's about showing up at a young person's soccer game. So, in the midst of this generation and being both revival and retreat, there are practical steps that any adult can take.   Laura Dugger: (14:17 - 14:36) Wow, that's so good. You've got ideas now coming to me for how to pour into even the youth group. This is probably a very random idea, but how great would it be to have a Google calendar of all of their events and then whoever in the church is available to go support? That would just be a practical way.   Dr. Kara Powell: (14:36 - 15:45) Okay, so, Laura, you have just named actually one of my favorite ideas that a church that is here in Los Angeles is doing. They created a Google calendar and volunteers as well as parents can add information. But then what this church did, they started with a Google calendar and then it's a church of about 300 people.   And so, they have now started every Sunday morning. They have a slide with what's happening in young people's lives for the next week. So-and-so is in a play.   So-and-so has a basketball game. So-and-so has a Boy Scout activity. And so, adults in the church, often senior adults who have some extra time, are showing up at kids' events.   Plus, every week they're prioritizing young people. So, when you're a young person in that church and every week there's a slide about you and your friends and what's happening, that says something to the young people sitting there. So, yeah, you're-I actually love that idea.   And especially for smaller churches, I think that's one of the big advantages of smaller churches is we can be more intimate and caring. So, yes, let's please do that.   Laura Dugger: (15:46 - 16:00) Oh, that's so good. I love hearing how that played out. And now I'm also curious because you mentioned it's Gen Alpha behind.   Do you have any insight onto them as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:00 - 16:27) Well, you're going to have to have me back because we are just-we received a grant from the Lilly Endowment, who's funded much of our research to study Gen Alpha. And they're just getting old enough that we really can, quite honestly. And so, like literally this week we are working on survey questions for Gen Alpha.   And we'll have more in the next year about what's similar between Gen Z and Gen Alpha, as well as what's different. So, I'd rather wait and save that for later.   Laura Dugger: (16:28 - 16:34) That sounds great. I'm especially interested in that generation. That is all four of our daughters would fall within that. So, I can't wait to hear your findings.   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:34 - 16:36) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (16:38 - 17:15) And I think it's also bringing up, I'm going to link to a previous episode, Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw, because I don't know if you feel this same way. I think millennials especially got pegged as the generational bias put on them was actually confused with their life stage. And Hayden's the one who wrote about that and drew that to our attention.   So, that's helpful to sift out as we're thinking of young people too, because sometimes older generations can look down on younger generations and see some of the shortcomings. Do you see that as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (17:16 - 18:55) Oh, for sure. For sure. I think we compare young people to who we are now instead of remembering our 13 and 19 and 25 year old self.   And so, I mean, that's one of our biggest pieces of advice when it comes to young people is instead of judging them, how do we journey with them? How do we really empathize with what they're experiencing? And when we are tempted to judge young people, let's just start at, well, let's just stop and ask ourselves, would we want to be a young person today?   It's so very challenging to be a young person today. I mean, mental health alone, like if I think about my tendency to, as a teenager myself, to compare myself with others, to be worried that I was left out. I mean, if there was a cell phone that showed me everything my friends were doing without me, and I'm stuck at home, like no wonder that young people feel more anxious.   I think I would really be struggling with anxiety if I was a teenager now. I mean, honestly, even at my age, I don't check social media on Friday night or Saturday night, because I might be, Dave and I might be having leftovers and either working or watching a movie on Netflix. And I go on social media and my friends are out with their husbands and having this phenomenal time.   And at my age, that makes me feel insecure, let alone imagine being a 13 or 18- or 22-year-old and navigating that. So, so yes, I think how can we empathize instead of finger point?   Laura Dugger: (18:56 - 19:12) Oh, and you write about how to navigate intergenerational tensions. How can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? And I guess, especially in the church?   Dr. Kara Powell: (19:12 - 22:39) Yeah, yeah, great question. So, one of our books is called Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. And we studied young people to try to understand the deep questions driving them.   And we landed on three. Identity, who am I? Belonging, where do I fit? And purpose, what difference can I make?   Identity, belonging and purpose. And those are that's such a helpful framework to understand young people and to empathize with them.   First off, I would say all of us are wrestling with identity, belonging and purpose. And when I feel emotional heat about an issue, if I feel insecure about something, it's usually because it's pricking at my identity, belonging or purpose. And so, that helps us realize that we navigate those questions, too.   But then also for the we who are parents, stepparents, grandparents, mentors of young people, you know, if a young person we care about is doing something that feels a little odd, a little askew, a little bit, that's not like them. If we can take a step back and ask, OK, what are they wrestling with? Is it identity?   Is it belonging? Is it purpose? That helps us empathize and know how to either ask a better question or, you know, give a little bit of hope rooted in whether that's rooted in scripture or in our own experience.   And so, yes, with our with our three kids, when I take a step back and ask, OK, they're saying something that feels odd or unlike them or I'm surprised this is provoking this response in them. Is it is it their identity, belonging or purpose that's at play here? It's like the penny drops and I come to understand.   So, I would say, you know, if we can wear those identity, belonging and purpose lenses, that really helps us understand young people. The other thing and, you know, I'm a professor, so I would give myself about a C plus in what I'm going to share next. OK, so if this is something I'm working on, it's this it's never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead.   And so, the more that we can ask questions about what young people are experiencing, like why, why, you know, in a very nonjudgmental way, like I'm just curious. And I start a lot of my questions with that. I'm curious.   I'm curious, like what does tick tock mean to you? Then, you know, that that can open up a real conversation instead of them feeling like we're somehow judging them for their technological use. I was proud of myself yesterday.   Like I said, I give myself about a C plus on this. But yesterday I was talking to my daughter about something. And I asked her, like, well, because she had stepped up to lead something.   And so instead of offering my advice, I said to her, well, you know, what do you think you did well as you were leading? And is there anything that you would want to do differently? And we were in the line of a fast-food place.   And I thought, yes, way to go. I ask questions instead of making statements, instead of offering my opinion. So, and sometimes we have to offer our opinion, for sure.   But just as a general rule, we can ask questions, especially the older our kids get. They respond to that better than us always sharing what we think.   Laura Dugger: (22:39 - 22:47) Well, and I also think you're even modeling this in the way you share stories is humility. So, when you partner that together, that seems very powerful.   Dr. Kara Powell: (22:48 - 23:53) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My one of my kids said something so interesting. At Mother's Day, my husband asked each of them to share something that they appreciated about me and which was wonderful to receive that affirmation.   And one of them and I I'm not going to reveal the gender here because I haven't asked this child permission to share this. But what my child said was that I was asking them for advice in a way that made it feel more like we were becoming friends. And I had asked this child for advice in the last couple of months about a couple situations.   And so, again, my kids are 19, 22 and 24. So, you know, it's different with younger kids. But for those of us with older kids, it was significant to this child of mine that I was asking them for advice.   And so, I want to keep doing that. I want to keep doing that. So, because I truly do want their perspective.   Yeah, I truly do want their perspective. And it means something to them when I do.   Laura Dugger: (23:54 - 25:28) Yes, absolutely. And I'm thinking back, this may have been like episode three back in 2018. But I talk with Annie Chapman.   She had written the book, The Mother-in-Law Dance. And what you're saying, she pointed out that what makes us a great parent and especially a great mother, the first half of our children's life or the first portion of our children's life at home, it's the opposite of the latter years. And so, you're right.   You're not probably going to ask your five-year-old for advice. But at your kids' phases, that is significant. Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights?   Make sure you access all of this at TheSavvySauce.com by clicking the button that says Join Our Email List so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy.    This discussion with young people is also tied into your recent and optimistic book.   So, I'll hold it up here. It's in and you did co-author this with Jake Mulder and Raymond Chang. So, it's entitled Future-Focused Church, and you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead.   So, what led you to this optimistic realization?   Dr. Kara Powell: (25:28 - 26:23) Yeah. Yeah. Well, first, God, you know, this is where being a practical theologian comes into play.   Like I'm always trying to understand what is God up to in this situation and just the way that God is constantly working, redeeming, recreating. So, you know, that's the heart of my optimism and Jake and Ray's optimism as fellow co-authors. And then also Future-Focused Church is based on research we did with over a thousand churches where we journeyed with them in the change process and just the way that they were able to make changes that made them more loving, made them more hospitable to young people.   So, it's, you know, it's people like your listeners and churches like those that your audience is part of. That's what made us optimistic is to see how God is working through actual churches.   Laura Dugger: (26:25 - 26:40) I love that. And even near the beginning, it was on page 26, you succinctly gave a definition of a future-focused church. So, will you share that definition and also elaborate on each one of the facets?   Dr. Kara Powell: (26:40 - 29:17) Yeah, yeah. So, it starts with a group of Jesus followers. And, you know, if you look at the original Greek for church, ekklesia, it's not a building.   We use that phrase incorrectly when we say, you know, I'll meet you at church and we mean a building. It's actually those who are called out or from. So, it's always people in the New Testament.   And so, we believe a church is a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. And that's really important to us is this isn't about what Kara, Jake and Ray think you should do or what the church down the street is doing or even what your denomination is doing. It's you seeking God's direction together.   So, and we could have stopped there, honestly, a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. But then because of the time we've spent with over a thousand churches, because of our commitment to young people, because of what we see happening these days, we added three what we call checkpoints, three things that we think should be priorities for churches these days. One is relationally discipling young people.   And, you know, we were intentionally using the words relationally discipling. It's not just entertaining. It's not just standing near young people at worship service.   But how are we actually investing in young people? And then secondly, modeling kingdom diversity. Again, if you look at our country ethnically and racially, we are a diverse country.   And so, how can we model that? How can our churches reflect what our neighborhoods are? And then thirdly, tangibly loving our neighbors.   Jesus said that, you know, they will know that we are Christians by our love for another, for each other, as well as our love for neighbors. And so, how can we make sure that we are really a place that is salt and light? As I mentioned, you know, we are trying to be in Pasadena as churches these days as we're recovering from the fires.   So, we encourage churches to look at those three checkpoints in particular. But then again, we want churches to figure out what God is inviting them towards. So, maybe that's more prayer.   Maybe that's being more involved globally in evangelism, you know, whatever it might be. Seek that direction together. But then what we try to do is give a map to get there, because a lot of churches know what they want to change, but don't know how to bring about change.   And so, that's actually what the bulk of our book is about, is helping leaders know how to move their church from here to God's direction for them.   Laura Dugger: (29:18 - 30:27) And that's incredible that you walked with so many churches through that process. But I was especially encouraged by you being partial to sharing stories. And so, we recently did an entire stories series on The Savvy Sauce, and it was so compelling and faith building.   I can link to a sample of those in the show notes. But you write about stories shaping culture. And I just I want to share your quote and then ask you how we can actually implement this.   So, your quote is from page 57, where you write, “Organizational culture is best communicated and illustrated by stories. As well modeled by Jesus, one of the best ways to shift the culture of a church is through the disciplined and consistent telling of clear and compelling stories that invite a different culture and way of being.” So, Kara, how have you seen this done well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (30:27 - 33:10) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think about whatever system we're in, whether it's our families or whether it's our churches or whatever organization we're in. Yeah, our stories become really the key messages of what our culture is.   And so, I want to go back to that church that we were talking about that had a Google calendar and now does a Sunday announcement every week of kids' events. Well, that church is also capturing stories of the 81-year-old who showed up at the 16-year-old soccer game, who didn't even know her all that well, but just had a free Thursday afternoon and knew that she was playing. And the pastor who was also on the sidelines at that soccer game, who ended up talking to both the parents of the 16-year-old and the 81-year-old.   And so, that became a story for that church of how different generations are supporting young people. And so, that pastor has told that story multiple, multiple times. You know, I just think about in our family, our kids love hearing our stories.   And that's part of how they I mean, it's a big, a big theme and how they come to know what it means to be a Powell. So, you know, earlier I said, you know, I said, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead. I think the exception to that, Laura, is if we're going to tell a story because stories communicate so much.   One of our one of our children is struggling with being anxious about something. And I was anxious last night. I never lose sleep.   I so rarely lose sleep. But I did last night. I was up for about an hour and a half in the middle of the night, finally ended up having a prayer time.   And that helped me go back to sleep. But I'm looking forward to telling my child, who's also struggling with anxiety, that story of me experiencing some, you know, 3:00 a.m. anxiety and what eventually helped me is kind of reflecting on a mantra I feel like God's given me. And I want to share that with my child, not to nag them, but just to let them know that, you know, in our family, this is how we want to try to respond to anxiety.   And maybe my story can be helpful for you the next time that you're struggling with it, which might be today. So, so, yes, the more that we can share our present and our past experiences, whether it's as individuals, families, organizations, the more that we communicate the cultural values that we want.   Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:45) That's so good. And I love how you're relating that to parents as well, because from the very youngest ages, tell me a story. And if it's like if we remember a story of them when they're a child, they just grasp onto that.   And we when we're tired at the end of the night, if we run out of our stories, we love even just reading aloud true stories of other people, too. OK, and I'm partnering then thinking of stories and one of your facets about I love how you said it. I'd love for you to repeat. Is it strategically discipling, relationally discipling?   Dr. Kara Powell: (33:45 - 33:46) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (33:46 - 35:03) OK, so my brother and sister's church, I'm just going to highlight theirs because I love something that both of them are doing with our nieces and nephews. They just have them, the youth, write down three names of somebody in a different generation above theirs that they would enjoy getting to know, spending time with. And then they get matched with one of those people and they enter a yearlong mentorship relationship.   And I'm just thinking, one, their mentors all happen to be open nesters. And the male and female who have mentored our nieces and nephews, the female took our nieces, would send them a copy of a recipe, say, get these groceries this week. I'm coming to your house on Tuesday and we're going to cook all of this together and have it ready for your family dinner.   Just so practical and that they just build a love for each other. And then a similar thing with our nephews, where whatever that mentor's skill was, he was great at even making, I think, wood fired pizzas and just showing them practical skills, but relationally investing. And you see the youth's growth and maturity from that discipleship.   Dr. Kara Powell: (35:03 - 36:17) So, yeah, that's awesome. And not only the young people, but the adults, too. Like what's been so great, Laura, is, you know, while much of our research has looked at how adults change young people and how churches change young people, every time we study that, we see how young people change adults and churches, too.   So, you know, for that male and female who are mentoring your nieces and nephews, how they come to understand more about themselves, God, life, scripture, as they're spending time with young people, that's just really, really powerful. So, I also want to highlight, I love how your example, how it starts by asking young people, like who are some adults that you would like to spend more time with that you look up to? And, you know, we would do that with our kids when we needed babysitters.   Like who are some adults that you would like to get to know and how wonderful then that we could ask those adults, especially if they were of babysitting age, to come and be with our kids. And that way we were getting the babysitting we needed and our kids were getting the mentoring that they needed. So, so, yes, I think, you know, giving a young person some agency and who they spend time with, that's really beautiful in that example.   Laura Dugger: (36:18 - 36:21) Oh, that's and that's genius for a family life.   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:21 - 36:22) Yeah, exactly, exactly.   Laura Dugger: (36:23 - 36:39) Well, you also share some other helpful tips for churches, such as considering questions like, would anyone miss our church if it closed down? So, do you have any other practical tips that you want to make sure we don't miss?   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:39 - 40:19) Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I'll offer a few questions that we have found really helpful. And I'll start with questions when your kids are in elementary and then I'll give a couple of questions when your kids are older.   So, so one of the questions that we love asking at dinner when our kids were in elementary was, how did you see God at work today? And I will say that when I first raised that question, one of my daughters said, “Well, mommy, I can't answer that question. And I said, why not?”   She said, “Well, I don't have a job. How did you see God at work today? So, then we had to say, well, how did you see God working today?”   And I, you know, and equally important as our kids asking that question is that we were, excuse me, as our kids answering that question is that we were answering that question. And so, so, you know, any way that you can involve meaningful sharing, whether it's a dinner, whether it's a bedtime and that you are sharing, too. So, so that that's been a great one for our family.   And then when your kids get older, a couple come to mind. One is two pairs of questions actually come to mind. One is, you know, the phrase never make a statement.   Maybe you can ask the question said sometimes we do need to offer our advice as parents, our perspective. And I have found when I do that with my kids is now that they're late young adults, if I ask them first, well, what do you disagree with and what I said and give them an opportunity to critique what I said, then and then I ask a second question. OK, well, what might you agree with and what I said?   They're far more open to sharing what they agree with if they first have had a chance to critique me. So, I offer that as in those moments when you do need to offer your opinion or perspective, how can we still make it a dialogue? One way is to invite your kid to critique you.   And they'll probably point out things that you do need to reconsider, or at least it's good to hear those from your young person. Another pair of questions that that I have found so helpful with our kids is as they get older and really come to own their own faith. I love asking our kids, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe?   And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? So, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe?   What I love about that is that it's making overt that our faith is going to continue to change and grow. And that's true for all of us. And it also makes differences discussable, because I'd far rather know how my kids' faith is changing and how it's different or similar than mine than not know.   And, you know, as we've asked our kids those questions over the years, sometimes their answer is like, not much has changed. Like, you know, but other times they do have different opinions that they want to share with me. And then I try to have that non-defensive, oh, OK, well, I'm curious.   Then again, starting phrase with I'm curious and then asking a question has given us some of the best conversations. So, you can get really tangible. How did you see God at work today?   But then as your kids get older, ask questions that that are more open-ended and can help you really understand where your kids are at.   Laura Dugger: (40:20 - 41:15) I love that.    And I'm just thinking if people are listening like I listen to podcasts, it's when I'm on the go, when I'm doing a walk in the morning or if I'm cleaning around the house. And if you don't get a chance to take notes, we do have transcripts available now for all these episodes, but I would think so many people have written in about dialogue and questions for teenagers and how to handle.   And I love the way you responded to all of that. So, even grab the transcript and write down those questions and try them at dinner or bedtime tonight. But then even thinking of churches for practical tips, what do you have as far as hospitality and the impact that it could make if we're building relationships through hospitality?   But you also call out three ways to build relationships through sharing meals, sharing stories and sharing experiences.   Dr. Kara Powell: (41:15 - 43:08) Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think you've named it, Laura. How do we have a hospitable, open heart and open churches?   And I just want to go back to this question. Like, is our church a place that our kids and our grandkids would want to be part of? And if we keep asking that question, I think it helps us prioritize the next generation and make space for them at our meals, within our stories and within our experiences.   Now, I will say this, you know, I talk so much about intergenerational relationships and bringing the generations together. Like, I do think there's a time and a place for 16-year-olds to be on their own and 46-year-olds to be on their own and 76-year-olds to be on their own. It's just finding that balance of when do we bring all the generations together?   And then when do we want to have those special life development, life stage development conversations ourselves? And most churches are swinging far more toward we keep generations separate and need to swing the pendulum back to how can we have shared meals together? How can we serve together in ways that are shared?   And, you know, I'll just say this last thought when it comes to sharing experiences, especially those that are service. You know, a lot of churches have young people who are serving. They're in children's ministry, they're in sound, they're in tech, etc.   And that's awesome. And I think the question becomes, like, how can that young person be more than just a warm body who passes out graham crackers? And how can I think, OK, I'm teaching third graders and I'm also trying to mentor this 15-year-old who's working with me with the third graders and same with sound.   So, you know, anytime you're interacting with young people, it's an opportunity to influence, especially as you're sharing more about yourself.   Laura Dugger: (43:10 - 43:15) Love that. And you seem like an idea person as well. So, I'm going to bounce another idea.   Dr. Kara Powell: (43:16 - 43:16) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (43:16 - 43:45) What I'm gathering is obviously we're keeping Jesus at the center and you're not downplaying the need for scripture or Bible study. And those kind of things but also adding there is value in I'm thinking shared experience. Specifically, I'm thinking of pickleball.   It's something that appeals to a wide age range. What if your church had invested in a pickleball sport to do something that could bring people together? So, what are your thoughts on that?     Dr. Kara Powell: (43:45 - 45:22) Yeah. Yeah. Pickleball, you know, senior adults who need tech help from teenagers.   That's another great way to connect people. I mean, any kind of shared interest 1 Thessalonians 2:8 is such an important scripture passage for me when it comes to discipleship. And Paul writes that we were delighted to share with you not just the gospel, but our very lives.   And so, how can we share life, whether it's pickleball, whether it's pizza? I'm running out of alliteration here. I was trying to do something else that started with P.   And for leaders who are listening, how can you take what you're already doing and make it more intergenerational? So, that's the other thing we like to tell churches is whether it's pickleball or whether it's well, we're already serving at the local homeless center to help people who are unhoused. Well, instead of that only being a youth event, maybe make that an all church event and see if adults come who can be mentoring young people.   So, you know, I love what one church did. Many churches have done this, actually, when they're looking for small group for homes where small groups can be for young people instead of going to like the parents of the teenagers. What if we go to our senior adults or our open or slash empty nesters and see if they'll open their homes?   Because then it's bringing more adults into contact with young people. And those adults who open their homes can also open their lives. So, yeah, just continuing to ask, how can we make this more of a connection across generations?   Goodness.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 45:39) And you have so many ideas and some of these are mentioned in this book, but you've also written many more helpful resources. So, will you give us an overview of the other books that you've authored and share a bit of what we might find if we read? Dr. Kara Powell: (45:39 - 46:42) Yeah. So, our most recent book, as you've mentioned, is Future Focus Church, and that's especially geared to help leaders know how to move a ministry from where they are now to where God wants it to be. It's been so great to journey with leaders through that.   Probably our best book that offers a ton of questions you can ask young people is Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, where we get into identity, belonging and purpose, which I mentioned. And we have over 300 questions that an adult, whether it's a family member or a mentor or a neighbor or congregant can use with young people. And then the last one I'll offer is The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family comes out of our previous Sticky Faith research.   How do you help young people have faith that lasts? We have a special chapter in that book for grandparents. So, for any grandparents who are listening, that whole book and that chapter is a great resource.   But also we have had a lot of parents, stepparents say that The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family has been one of their favorite books.   Laura Dugger: (46:43 - 47:02) That's incredible. I'll have to link to those in the show notes for today's episode. But I'm sure you're aware we are called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is anonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Dr. Kara Powell: (47:03 - 48:16) That's a really good question, Laura. OK, I'll say I'll share the first thing that came to mind when you asked it. Gosh, probably 10 or 12 years ago, I read a book and from the book I adapted a phrase for my work life and my personal life, which is if it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   As a busy mom, as a busy employee, as a busy leader, I see potential in so many things. And so, I want to say yes to so many things. And then I end up tired.   I end up empty. I end up not being able to say yes to something maybe better that comes a month later because I've already committed to, you know, plan my seventh graders camping trip or give a talk or, you know, whatever it might be. And so, that phrase, we made it a six-month experiment in the Foley Youth Institute as well as in our family.   Like it's not a definite yes, it's a no. And it really helped us say no to things, trim and I think find a much more manageable pace. So, as we pray, as we pray, it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   That's been game changing for me.   Laura Dugger: (48:17 - 48:57) Well, I love how much you've modeled applying these things at your work or in our church, but also in our family life. It's all transferable. And Kara, this has just been a super special conversation because you've been on my list to have a conversation with for over a decade, probably since I got my hands on Sticky Faith.   And I just appreciate we've been talking as we were praying before we were recording. You desire so much, not only for young people, but for all people to experience this abundant life in Christ. And I'm so grateful for you and just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Dr. Kara Powell: (48:57 - 49:03) Oh, my pleasure, Laura. And thanks to you and how you serve your audience as well as our world. It's been an honor.   Laura Dugger: (49:04 - 52:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

You think you're burned out, but what if you're actually just emotionally disconnected? What if your body is paying the price for unprocessed emotions you never gave yourself permission to feel? In today's episode of Win Today, married theologians and counselors Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw debunk the myths surrounding burnout, spiritual bypassing, and superficial healing. We're talking about what's really going on beneath the surface of emotional shutdown, how insecure attachment shows up in adult faith, and why your “soul senses” need to be reawakened if you want to actually experience wholeness. This isn't about self-help. This is about becoming whole—from the inside out. If you've ever been told to “just push through” or have spiritualized your pain away, this conversation is going to hit you like a defibrillator. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

What if the deepest work God does in us happens when no one sees? When we feel forgotten, disillusioned, or unsure if our faith is still intact? Most of us would rather skip the wilderness. But what if the desert isn't punishment—it's preparation? This week on Win Today, international recording artist Evan Craft joins us for a raw and honest conversation about faith in the silence, finding God in the dark night of the soul, and what it means to serve when no one applauds. Together, we confront the cynicism that creeps in when life feels unfair, the pressure to perform for spiritual approval, and the questions we rarely admit we're asking, especially when God doesn't move how we expected. If you've ever felt forgotten by God or frustrated with the silence, this episode is for you. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

Our guest is CAREY NIEUWHOF, author, speaker, founder of The Art of Leadership Academy, curator of the On The Rise Newsletter, and host of the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast, one of the top leadership podcasts in the world. We discuss AI and the future of leadership, travel tips, finishing well, curation, and much more. Plus check out the Top Weekly Leadership List. Make sure to visit http://h3leadership.com to access the list and all the show notes. Thanks again to our partners for this episode: OPERATION CHRISTMAS CHILD – Join in on the Christmas shoebox campaign this fall! Operation Christmas Child has been reaching millions of children each year with the good news of Jesus Christ through simple shoebox gifts. Get involved at http://samaritanspurse.org/OCC. Even in the hardest to reach places of the world, churches are being planted and communities are transformed. You can pack a shoebox this year and reach a child with the good news of Jesus. National Collection Week is November 17-24. Build your shoebox and find everything you need to get started by visiting http://samaritanspurse.org/OCC. And FOSTER THE CITY – Foster the City was launched out of Echo Church in CA, and now over 350 churches are raising up Foster Families and Support Teams to take on the thousands of kids needing a foster family. Learn more at http://fosterthecity.org. Working towards a day when there will be a waiting list of churches instead of a waiting list of children in need of a home. Foster the City believes there is a church for every child. Learn how you and your church can partner and get involved at http://fosterthecity.org.

83% of Americans say preaching impacts their decision on a church home. Having just filmed a new 45 video course called the Art of Preaching, Carey Nieuwhof and Mark Clark share 90 minutes of their best preaching tips from the course and their accumulated years of reaching tens of thousands of unchurched people.

We say we want transformation, but often we create environments that protect people from pain instead of preparing them for growth. In the process, we enable spiritual stagnation, emotional fragility, and shallow discipleship. This week on Win Today, Katie Davis Majors exposes the hidden dangers of well-meaning empathy, the false security of “safe spaces,” and the clichés that erode authentic faith. In this conversation, we'll also tackle how to live faithfully in the tension between what God has promised and what we see right now. If you've ever found yourself numbing pain instead of processing it, or if you've settled for comfort instead of maturity, this conversation will challenge you to grow, even when it costs you. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

We all want to overcome, but too often, we curate our pain out of view—tidy it up, slap a spiritual platitude on top, and hope time heals what we never confronted. This week on Win Today, ESPN's Lauren Sisler reveals what happened when her life fell apart at 18. She buried both of her parents just hours apart. And in the wake of that trauma, she didn't get a “hall pass” from grief. She didn't get a spiritual fast-forward button. She had to live every moment of it, raw and real. In this powerful conversation, we take on the lies of “rah-rah Christianity,” the armor of image management, and the emotional expense of avoidance. If you've ever wondered why God didn't spare you from the pain… or why it still lingers even though you “moved on,” this episode will meet you where you really live. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

Breaking the Silence: Why Pastors and Entrepreneurs Need Each OtherJoin host Justin Forman for an enlightening conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, leadership expert and former lead pastor, as they tackle one of the most important conversations in the modern church: bridging the gap between pastors and entrepreneurs. From his unique perspective of having served in both pastoral ministry and entrepreneurial ventures, Carey reveals why there's mutual intimidation between these two groups and how churches can unleash the untapped potential of their entrepreneurial members.This episode explores the crisis of community in entrepreneurship, why 50% of retired CEOs die within two years, and how churches possess the "convening power" to create lasting connections. Carey shares practical insights from leading churches that are successfully engaging their business leaders beyond "handing out programs and parking cars."Key Topics:The entrepreneurial isolation crisis: Why there's "no default community" for business leadersMutual intimidation: Why pastors feel inadequate around entrepreneurs and vice versaThe spiritual gift of entrepreneurship: Learning from the Apostle Paul's business modelMoving beyond volunteer tasks to meaningful engagement for high-capacity leadersHow churches can serve as "incubators" for Kingdom-minded business venturesThe difference between "real friends" and "deal friends" in entrepreneurial communitiesPractical steps for pastors to start entrepreneur-focused ministriesNotable Quotes:"I think for entrepreneurs, there's no default community. You're on your own. It's sort of the hero's journey. You start by yourself, that pioneer spirit. Within two years of retiring as a CEO, 50% of CEOs are dead." - Carey Nieuwhof"Pastors are thinking, I don't make a million dollars a year like I haven't got staff and employees like you do. I don't feel like I measure up, and I don't know, I've talked to so many pastors who are like, I know this guy or woman could give $3 million I'm terrified of making the ask." - Carey Nieuwhof"You've got some in your church, and they don't know how to contribute, and they're feeling alone and they're feeling isolated." - Carey Nieuwhof

There's a kind of rest that is still ravenous, and comfort alone is costing your soul more than you think. This week on Win Today, Tim Timberlake joins me to name the central lie of our era: that convenience equals progress. God rarely fits into the narrative designed by self‑help culture, and grief is rarely the speed bump we're told. When breakthrough is packaged and delivered, it disconnects you from the transformative power of pain. Tim unpacks why immediate comfort doesn't heal—it anesthetizes. Why rushing through grief doesn't preserve strength—it fractures your future. And why so many believers craft manufactured breakthroughs that collapse when real life tests them. If your fast-track faith feels flat…if comfort makes you morally weaker…or if you've chased progress more than presence, this episode confronts the real cost, and invites deeper formation. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

There's a humility you carry like baggage, and it's slowly wearing you down. This week, Dr. Les Parrott and Judah Smith join me to dismantle the false humility that masquerades as godliness while laundering shame. Humility becomes self-hatred when vulnerability is avoided and spiritual high-mindedness is mistaken for healing. Layer on top the epidemic of spiritual bypassing—pretending everything is okay—and you get a reluctance to ever speak pain. We unpack why your job is not to heal publicly, how real accountability looks different than performance, and why refusing to stay in the box of pretense is the most subversive spiritual act you can commit. Whether you've preached from the platform or hidden behind faith walls, this episode cuts through your shame fortress and lights a path to emotional and spiritual freedom. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

There's a lie you've turned into identity—that you must perform vulnerability to earn belonging. This week, Toni Collier joins me to pull the veil off emotional infidelity hidden in silence, the orphan wounds we carry in isolation, and the spiritual manipulation we excuse as authenticity. She's walked through heartbreaking betrayal, spiritual misuse, and the long deconstruction of self‑worth in ministry circles. And she has found that true vulnerability isn't performative—it's sacred, grounded, sacrificial, and healing. In this episode, we dismantle the theology of emotional scarcity, expose spiritual control disguised as care, and confront the cost of emotional isolation. Toni challenges common assumptions: that therapy alone solves trauma, that forgiveness equals denial, that age or faith automatically heals wounds. This conversation calls you home to integrity, community, and emotional wholeness. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

There's an architecture to dysfunction. It starts with broken beliefs about who you are, and it becomes lifestyle chaos. This week, Ed Latimore joins me to dismantle that architecture from the inside out. A former heavyweight boxer turned Stoic philosopher, physicist, and master of emotional discipline, Ed knows what happens when discipline outruns self-awareness and toughness becomes armor, not healing. We go deep on how distorted thinking drives destructive behavior; how emotional regulation isn't about feeling control—it's predictive science; and why optimism without realism becomes denial. This episode is a surgical blueprint for rethinking how you think, feel, and engage with life's stress. If you're tired of overthinking, overdoing, and still not seeing change, listen closely. Because transformation begins the moment you question what you're telling yourself about your own strength, your pain, and your beliefs. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

This week, Jefferson Fisher—a trial lawyer turned communication expert—walks us through why the art of slowing down a conversation is more powerful than shouting louder. He unpacks the truth about overexplaining, reveals why emotional manipulation often hides in plain sight, and shows how minor shifts can resolve arguments faster than any volume ever could. Jefferson also challenges the lie that talking proves knowledge. Instead, he shows why restraint builds trust, clarity, and real influence. If you've ever found yourself talking in circles, replaying conversations in your head, or trying to shout down someone else, this episode will give you the tools to stop reacting and start leading. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.  

This week, we're concluding a special encore series with Jamie Winship, one of the most powerful voices we've ever featured. These conversations aren't just interviews; they're invitations. Each episode is a call to trade fear for peace, performance for identity, and isolation for union with the Lord. If you've been wrestling with pain, confusion, or the ache to live from truth instead of striving, don't miss this mini-series. It's time to unlearn the lies that keep you stuck and rediscover the wholeness you were made for. July 16: Turning Chaos into Opportunity July 23: The Lie of Being Alone, Radical Individualism, and Why Pain is Good July 30: Why Separation Creates Suffering, the Necessary Practice of Self-Emptying, and a Right View of God Then join me August 6 for a brand-new conversation with communication expert and viral voice of reason, Jefferson Fisher. Episode Links Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

We're continuing a special encore series with Jamie Winship, one of the most powerful voices we've ever featured. These conversations aren't just interviews; they're invitations. Each episode is a call to trade fear for peace, performance for identity, and isolation for union with the Lord. If you've been wrestling with pain, confusion, or the ache to live from truth instead of striving, don't miss this mini-series. It's time to unlearn the lies that keep you stuck and rediscover the wholeness you were made for. July 16: Turning Chaos into Opportunity July 23: The Lie of Being Alone, Radical Individualism, and Why Pain is Good July 30: Why Separation Creates Suffering, the Necessary Practice of Self-Emptying, and a Right View of God Then join me on August 6 for a brand-new conversation with communication expert and viral voice of reason, Jefferson Fisher. Episode Links Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

For the next three weeks, we're diving into a special encore series with Jamie Winship, one of the most powerful voices we've ever featured. These conversations aren't just interviews; they're invitations. Each episode is a call to trade fear for peace, performance for identity, and isolation for union with the Lord. If you've been wrestling with pain, confusion, or the ache to live from truth instead of striving, don't miss this mini-series. It's time to unlearn the lies that keep you stuck and rediscover the wholeness you were made for. July 16: Turning Chaos into Opportunity July 23: The Lie of Being Alone, Radical Individualism, and Why Pain is Good July 30: Why Separation Creates Suffering, the Necessary Practice of Self-Emptying, and a Right View of God Then join me on August 6 for a brand-new conversation with communication expert and viral voice of reason, Jefferson Fisher. Episode Links Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

You've been taught vulnerability is strength, but what if that's half the truth—and it's costing you more than you realize? This week, DawnCheré Wilkerson joins me to dismantle the hidden toll of isolation. She shares how walking through infertility, life's furnace, and unsurfaced grief fractures the soul, and how secrets rob you of belonging before you even realize it. DawnCheré exposes why vulnerability isn't a spotlight; it's a sanctuary that demands integrity. She unpacks the orphan spirit every believer must resist, warns against idolizing therapy as the endpoint, and offers a path forward: a refusal to run, safety in community, and the spiritual grit to stay alive. If you're tired of pretending you're fine…if your pain feels invisible…and if you've mistaken therapy for healing, this episode is your call to come home. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

You've been told therapy is the answer to everything. That if you just unpack hard enough, you'll finally be free. But what if that's not the full story? This week, Terry Crist joins me to challenge beliefs that cause deeper destruction. He's seen how long-standing secrets fracture the soul, how the orphan spirit grows in Christian homes, and how many believers never outgrow wounded identity, even into legacy years. In this conversation, Terry decodes why running away from truth never works, how idolizing therapy can drain godly authority, and why healing is never finished, even if you've been in the room for decades. He brings the fight where healing meets holiness, and shows how to refuse lie-lay, stop hiding, and step into belonging. If you've ever carried a secret, felt disconnected in the Church, or believed your wounds had an expiry date, you need to hear this episode. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

You've hit the wall. You've circled the same fears, same failures, same question: Now what? This week, Craig Cooney joins me to map out the 7 Stages of Life Transition—that spiritual, emotional, relational journey we all face when momentum crashes into burnout. He's walked past every threshold: loss, disillusionment, plateau, crisis. And he understands what happens when you blitz through “surviving” and find… something new on the other side. In this episode, Craig names the pain of transition: the loneliness of midsize dreams, the temptation to spin in place, the hidden grief behind “I'm tired,” and the silent desperation of burnout nobody talks about. And he exposes the breakthrough waiting when you refuse to stay stuck at the wall. If you're in the pause, the plateau, the painful “In-Between”—this episode will help you understand what stage you're in, give language to the hardship you're living, and show you the transformation lurking on the other side. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

Fact: Many churches with facilities and money lack people, while churches with people often lack facilities and funds. In this episode, Carey Nieuwhof argues why dying churches should transfer their buildings to growing congregations. He addresses the 5 key objections to this transition and demonstrates why overcoming these barriers creates a win for everyone involved in advancing the Kingdom's mission.

You've been sold a lie: that authenticity means spilling everything and bleeding on everyone. That your pain validates your platform and makes you more mature. This week, Levi Lusko joins us to dismantle that fallacy. He's faced the brutal shock of grief and the hidden ruins of unsurfaced trauma. He's walked through the disillusionment of midlife irrelevance. And he's learned the hard truth: healing doesn't include weaponizing your pain, and authenticity doesn't mean emotional anarchy. In this episode, Levi pulls back the curtain on what happens when grief blindsides you, why trauma must be surfaced before it surfaces on others, and how midlife loss of relevance can become the birthplace of greater purpose. We talk about the toxicity of “authenticity culture”—why sharing pain doesn't always lead to healing, and why containment, resilience, and sacred boundaries are essential. If you've ever bared your struggle and felt worse… if you're deep in grief or navigating a midlife low… this conversation will give you clarity, grace, and a restoration plan. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

You've been told addiction is a disease or a moral failing. That emotional pain is separate from your brain wiring. And that quantum physics is just science fiction jargon. This week on Win Today, Dr. Lee Warren—a neurosurgeon, Iraq War vet, and author—pushes back on all of that. He exposes how unraveling addiction requires more than therapy—it demands restructuring your neural pathways. He digs into how neurodivergent brains function, why most spiritual advice fails, and how quantum physics reveals that your brain isn't a victim—it's a participant. Lee will show you why normal isn't enough, why passive hope is setting you up for failure, and why self‑brain‑surgery—rewiring your neural patterns—is the ultimate resistance. If you're wrestling with addictive patterns, feeling trapped in mental loops, or want hard science fused with spiritual hope, this conversation will light a fire under you. This isn't motivation—it's neuroscience applied. It's the answer buried inside your skull. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

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In a culture obsessed with self-discovery, the pursuit of "finding yourself" often leads to more confusion than clarity. Preston Morrison, Senior Pastor of Pillar Church and host of The Leader's Cut, challenges this narrative by exposing the misconceptions that keep us spiritually immature. He delves into how pride creates distance and separation, the pain inherent in midlife transitions, and the transformative power of embracing life's wilderness seasons. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

You've been taught that spiritual maturity looks like control. Stoicism. Discipline. Measured responses. But what if that's not maturity at all—just emotional suppression dressed in a Bible verse? This week on Win Today, Zach Meerkreebs, known for his role in the Asbury Outpouring, joins me to dismantle the cultural scorecard we've built around spiritual growth. We're talking about the false belief that spiritual people don't struggle. That leaders don't wrestle with anxiety. That if you're in pain, you're just not “surrendered” enough. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

This week on Win Today, I'm joined by Kris Vallotton for a raw conversation about how well-meaning but bad theology is distorting our view of emotional health and creating systems of self-oppression inside the Church. From the stigma surrounding therapy and medication to the over-spiritualization of trauma, Kris pulls no punches. Together, we explore why real transformation can't just be personal—it must be systemic. Because if the environment around you is sick, your health will always hit a ceiling. If you've ever been shamed for struggling, blamed for being anxious, or silenced when asking hard questions about healing, this conversation will set you free. It's time to confront the beliefs that keep us stuck—and recover a theology that makes room for the whole person: body, soul, and spirit. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

We've mistaken platforms for purpose. We've idolized influence and sacrificed intimacy. And we've called it success when in reality, it's just burnout in disguise. This week, Grammy-nominated singer/songwriter Tauren Wells joins Win Today for a brutally honest conversation about the danger of exposure growing faster than character. Together, we explore how influence without intimacy leads to insecurity, how image management becomes spiritual performance, and why pathologizing our struggles has kept us from doing the real work of healing. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

We've called it emotional intelligence. We've called it self-awareness. But what if the story you're telling yourself—the one you rehearse in your head day after day—isn't making you healthier? It's keeping you sick. This week, Rita Springer joins Win Today for an unfiltered, emotionally disruptive conversation about the link between obedience and mental health. Because here's the truth: peace doesn't come from managing your anxiety better. Peace comes from surrender. And when we treat obedience like a suggestion instead of a lifeline, we stay stuck in cycles of emotional chaos, calling it healing when it's really avoidance. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

We live in a culture of extremes—where the loudest voice wins, emotional manipulation masquerades as influence, and overcorrection has become the new dysfunction. We see it in our families. We feel it in our churches. And when it finally shows up in our relationships, we wonder why everything feels so chaotic. This week on Win Today, Manny Arango is here to pull the curtain back on the deeper issues no one wants to admit. Together, we're talking about the generational cycles of chaos we've inherited, how manipulation uses fear to gain control, and why overcorrecting for past pain only produces more dysfunction. And at the center of it all? The worship of self, disguised as confidence, but rooted in pride. In this conversation, Manny exposes: The hidden tactics of emotional manipulation that we normalize How to recognize and break generational cycles of chaos Why overcorrection is not healing—it's reactionary bondage What it really means to dethrone the god of self and let Christ take His rightful place   If you're tired of pretending, if you're sick of spiritual language being used to control, and if you're ready to break the cycles that have defined your family and your faith, this episode will confront you, challenge you, and call you higher. Listen now. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

There's a moment, often quietly, when you realize life didn't turn out the way you thought it would. The dreams you chased, the milestones you reached—they didn't deliver the satisfaction you imagined. And somewhere along the way, loneliness crept in, success started to feel hollow, and the constant pressure to optimize every part of your life became a crushing weight. This week on Win Today, Ian Simkins joins us to talk about the uncomfortable truths no one tells you about midlife. In this conversation, we'll unpack: Why midlife often exposes the false gods we've been serving The unique, often hidden loneliness of your 40s—and how to navigate it How spiritual abuse leaves scars that don't just go away with time Why efficiency, while celebrated, makes a terrible master The freedom that comes when you stop demanding success from God   Midlife isn't a crisis. It's an invitation. An invitation to reevaluate what you've been chasing, to heal what's still wounded, and to walk with God in a deeper, quieter way. If you're feeling stuck, unseen, or frustrated by the gap between your expectations and your reality, this episode will speak directly to where you are. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. • • Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

Carey Nieuwhof takes the top questions young leaders submitted about ambition and how it works for and against you. Plus, he discusses media consumption habits, being a 'professional" Christian because you work on staff, and how to fire people (well). 

This week, Jennie Allen sits down with her friend and leadership expert Carey Nieuwhof to talk about burnout, rest, and sustainable rhythms. Carey shares his powerful story of hitting a wall after years of striving and high performance, and how he learned that time off won't fix a life that's running on empty. They discuss how to create sustainable habits, protect your energy, and live intentionally—even when life feels chaotic. Whether you're a working professional, a ministry leader, or a stay-at-home parent juggling everything, this episode will give you practical wisdom and encouragement to reset your pace and protect your heart. The Chosen Last Supper is officially releasing in theaters tomorrow! You don't want to miss this three-part theatrical release. Experience Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, His final moments with His disciples, and the events that changed the world forever. ➡️ Get your tickets now: thechosenlastsupper.com HELPFUL LINKS Grab a copy of Carey's book At Your Best! CONNECT ON SOCIALS • Instagram | YouTube | Facebook | TikTok | Pinterest