Podcast appearances and mentions of carey nieuwhof

Two-thirds of young adults (18–29) have walked away from church… but we're also seeing an all‑time high in Bible sales driven by young adults, plus millions returning to a personal commitment to Jesus. In this episode of youngadults.today, Josiah and Micah sit down with Daniel Young (Young Adults & Student Pastor at Eagle Brook Church) to talk about: His prodigal story and how Jesus recaptured his heart as a young adult Why the young adult years are the most spiritually dangerous years Real stats on deconstruction, disaffiliation, and the surprising comeback How Eagle Brook reaches young adults across 14 campuses Third spaces, after-parties, and creating transformational relationships How to disciple young adults so they don't just love youth group… they love the Church Daniel's top advice for young communicators: love the Bible, guard your private devotion, and love people well Whether you're a young adult, a pastor, or a ministry leader, this conversation will give you vision, language, and practical ideas for reaching the next generation.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Todd Wilson, co-founder of Exponential and a leader at Multipliers, where he helps churches and ministry leaders pursue multiplication and greater Kingdom impact. Todd has spent decades studying church planting, disciple-making, and movements, and his latest book, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward, explores the evolution of the American church growth movement and what it may mean for the future. Are churches working harder while reaching fewer people? Have our systems become better at producing activity than disciples? Todd challenges leaders to examine the operating system beneath modern church ministry and consider what needs to change if we want to see true reproduction and multiplication. We have a disciple-making problem. // For years, Todd has championed the goal of seeing more churches reproduce. Research once showed that fewer than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing, and while that number has improved, multiplication remains rare. But Todd believes church planting is ultimately an outcome of a deeper issue: most churches do not have a functional culture of disciple-making. If disciples aren’t reproducing disciples, churches will struggle to reproduce churches. Reproduction has to become generational. // Multiplication begins when reproduction continues beyond the first generation. One disciple makes another disciple, who then makes another, and the process keeps going. The same is true with churches. A church plants a church, which plants another church, which plants another. Once reproduction moves across multiple generations, addition becomes multiplication and the potential for movement begins to emerge. The church growth system has slowly changed. // Todd’s research traces roughly 75 years of church growth history, beginning with missionary Donald McGavran. McGavran originally studied why some churches on the mission field grew while others did not and developed principles aimed at helping missionaries reach more people. Over time, those ideas moved into the American church and blended with seeker-sensitive ministry, the megachurch movement, purpose-driven strategies, multisite, church planting networks, and other innovations. Much good came from these eras, but Todd believes the system gradually shifted toward institutional and programmatic growth. Good intentions can still create the wrong outcomes. // Todd is careful not to blame previous generations of church leaders. Many of the people who shaped modern church ministry were deeply evangelistic and sincerely wanted to reach people. Yet over time, the dominant definition of success increasingly became bigger attendance, larger programs, and expanding organizations. The unintended result is a consumer-driven model that can attract people effectively but struggles to produce disciples who reproduce. The angst leaders feel is real. // Todd hears a growing frustration among pastors: churches are spending more money, employing more staff, and working harder while seeing less fruit. Even churches that appear successful can sense something isn’t right beneath the surface. Todd believes much of that angst comes from trying to produce multiplication through an operating system designed primarily for addition. Naming the problem is an important first step toward changing it. Leaders must model what they want reproduced. // Todd believes transformation has to begin with senior leaders. If disciple-making is going to become the church’s growth engine, lead pastors and elders must personally participate in a simple, reproducible disciple-making process. Rather than merely preaching about discipleship, pastors should be able to name the people they are actively discipling and allow those relationships to shape the way they lead and teach. Keep the process simple and reproducible. // Whatever model a church chooses, Todd believes it must be simple enough for anyone to reproduce. The goal isn’t another sophisticated program but a way of following Jesus that can move naturally from person to person. The same approach should work for a lead pastor, a volunteer, or even a teenager. Simplicity increases the possibility of multiplication. Give the next generation permission to experiment. // Todd isn’t calling churches to abandon everything they’ve inherited. Instead, he encourages leaders to learn from the past, retain what is fruitful, and recognize that the current operating system may be losing effectiveness. Churches should create space for younger leaders to experiment, learn, and discover more reproducible approaches to disciple-making without being forced to preserve every assumption of previous generations. To learn more about Todd Wilson, visit multipliers.org. You can also download a free PDF or audio version of How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward at church-growth.org or pick up a paper copy on Amazon.com. In addition, check out Todd Wilson’s conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, and the interview A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have tuned in today for this reason, friends, lean in. um I want you to be a part of the conversation that we’re having today. The leader that we’ve got on the phone, on the I don’t know why say the phone because we have not been on phones for podcasts in, you know, 10 years, but on the line is really pressing on an issue that I know that a large portion, you know, almost 90 percent of the churches in the country need to be doing what we’re talking about today. And they’re not. And I really want you to lean in and learn from Todd Wilson. Rich Birch — If you do not know Todd Wilson, he has been the founding and co-founding member of a number of faith-based organizations, including Exponential and Multipliers. He has designed a number, and been a part of the launch of a multiple of national church planting networks. He’s currently a team member, or team leader at Multipliers and serves leaders and ministries who are pursuing multiplication, helping them develop vision and strategy ultimately for a 100 X impact. You know that I love that. Rich Birch — Recently, he wrote a book that caught my attention that I want to dive in on and kind of um unpack some of the core lessons for us today. It’s called, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. And it’s really looking at the whole conversation, American church growth movement. Todd, welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.Todd Wilson — Rich, it’s great to be here with you. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.Rich Birch — Yeah, me too. So why don’t we start with kind of giving us a picture of Multipliers and the work that you’re focused on now, kind of set the context for us.Todd Wilson — Sure. It’s probably good to have the context, you know, at at my core, my own personal calling. I am an entrepreneurial engineer at my core. I love to envision, envisage opportunities, seek strategies and opportunities of the future. And so where I like to do it anywhere, there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact. And that’s what gets me in trouble often is the, wherever there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact.Todd Wilson — When I came out of the marketplace over 25 years ago into full-time ministry, the most natural hundred X place for me, in addition to being in the local church was, was church planting. I was just drawn to church planting. I got to spend almost 20 years, ah you know, leading Exponential and co-founding there.Todd Wilson — And in recent years, really trying to get even more focused really on the 100x impact. I want to spend my next decade as I’m getting older here, you know, what’s it look like for every hour, for every dollar, for every bit of energy, to see 100x return.Todd Wilson — And so the idea of Multipliers, and it’s a small team of us that, you know, we have a definite bias within the kingdom space to the disciple-making as the mission and engine of the church. And what’s it look like to get back to Jesus style disciple making. But then church planting and multiplication, what does it look like to be doing things that that are even capable of reproduction that can lead to multiplication and ultimately movement. So our goal is to just help champion at the personal level through personal calling, at the church level through disciple making and cultures of disciple making that can ultimately produce movements.Todd Wilson — And so we are a champion and advocate for that.Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. You and I are are similarly wired. And over the years, you know I’ve heard people talk about, you know, and they always they’ll do like a series at a church on spiritual gifts. And I’ve often wondered because of the kinds of things I’ve been involved in, if, you know, if I have some sort of apostolic gift, just because of the stuff I found myself doing and, you know, launching campuses and all that.Rich Birch — And it’s interesting that gift over the years I’ve heard, which is similar to the kind of work you’ve been doing over the years is the only gift that I’ve ever noticed that preachers, they seem to talk down about it. And they’re like, stop starting things like, you know, they’re like, they always, you know, are like on the negative side of, you know, being the guy who wants to be entrepreneurial and see new things.Rich Birch — And that’s a part of what I admire about you and the good work you’ve done. When you were at Exponential over those, you know, with you that you co-founded, you know, that almost 20 years, you know, they had this, they saw some amazing things happen there under your leadership, where this idea of moving church reproduction from under 5%, really trying to push us towards 16%.Rich Birch — So for people that are unaware of this, I think this is good context to kind of take a step back and talk about why that number, why are we actually, why are you giving decades of your life towards this idea of trying to move towards 16%? What do we mean by that when you you know talk about that? Because I think that’s a good foundational idea for today’s conversation.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think it’s important it to understand, again, context for me. I didn’t grow up a Christian. I never had a dream to be in full-time vocational ministry. I’ve never wanted to be a lead pastor of anything. You know, ministry was the farthest thing from my mind growing up. When you’re asking kids, what do you want do when you grow up? Todd Wilson — So when God brought me into full-time vocational ministry, and I’m going to say kicking and screaming, I wanted to go start a company. I wanted to go make money. I wanted to go change the world. And so coming into full-time vocational ministry, why in the world would I want to see anything except movements happening? Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — We read about movements in the New Testament. Why do I want to be personally satisfied if God’s calling me into a new life of ministry with anything less than seeing movements?Todd Wilson — And so that was my context of stepping in and and leading at Exponential and what was driving us. And your question from 5% to 16%. Well, Houston, we have a problem.Todd Wilson — If movements are multiplication, and multiplication is generational reproduction, and we, at the time we were starting Exponential, there were less than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing. You just got to let that sink in.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — 95% of churches just 25 years ago, 95% of churches in the U.S. are not reproducing. It’s physically impossible, both mathematically and biblically, to see multiplication and ultimately movements if less than 5% of churches are reproducing.Todd Wilson — So the answer to where’s the 5 to 16, for me personally, God’s called me into a new life and a new ministry. I don’t want to be satisfied with just status quo, but the state of the U.S. church is such that we physically can’t see 100x impact in the operating system of how things are working. Todd Wilson — So the 5 to 16 was very simple. Let’s measure where we’re at. And so the 16% sociologists say that if you can get 16% of an audience acting a certain way, behaving a certain way, it will become normative for everyone else. I like to say, if you’re in a room and you start quacking like a duck to talk, if you can get 16% of the people in the audience quacking like a duck, then everybody’s going to communicate by quacking like a duck.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And so it just became a conviction. Let’s move the needle from less than 5% to 16%. And then the language we would use is, at 16%, healthy church reproduction would become such a normative thing that we would see multiplication happening.Todd Wilson — Now, the little bit of an elephant in the room before we move on, church planting is just the outcome. So that 5% number, it’s an outcome of the system and what’s happening.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The more ornery number is that the national studies that we did on what percentage of U.S. churches have a disciple-making culture. That’s also less than 5%.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So 95% of churches don’t have a functional mission of disciple-making, and that’s their normative growth engine through disciple-making. So in reality, we have a disciple-making problem, not a church-planting problem. And so those two became very tied together, as as will become evident as we have this interview.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. and And just can you define generational reproduction for folks that are listening in? When you when you when you say that, like, hey, we’re trying to move churches towards generational reproduction, kind of just unpack that a little bit more.Todd Wilson — Yeah, let’s let’s start at the personal level of disciple-making. If one person makes a disciple of another person, you’ve got one generation. If that person goes on to make another disciple two generations, that person makes a disciple three generations. We see that biblically. We see that in the leadership pipeline with Paul, that you know we need to see disciples who make disciples who make disciples.Todd Wilson — Once you get to the third or fourth generation of something reproducing itself, if you drew that on paper, one becomes two, two becomes four, four becomes eight, eight becomes 16. That is an exponential or a multiplication curve. So all you have to do to go from addition to multiplication is have healthy reproduction broad and wide multiple generations into the future.Todd Wilson — Now we just take that to the church level, a church that plants a church that plants a church that plants a church broad and wide.Todd Wilson — Now you’ve gone from one church to 16 churches. And now look at the collective attendance of those 16 churches. That’s what you call healthy growth. That’s what you call multiplication when you keep reproducing it over and over.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And there’s actually been progress against this. This is one of the things that I’ve loved as a person just sitting on the outside looking in as you and the team, you know, Dave and the broader Exponential community have really been hammering away at this. You know, we’re not at 16% yet, but we’re seeing progress, which is which is amazing.Todd Wilson — Right. It’s in the studies that we did, and it’s been repeated a couple of times, the needle has moved to at least 7%. That may not sound like a lot, but if you go take the number of churches we’re talking about…Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — …and that needle moving from less than 5% to 7%. And we’re not taking credit for all that at Exponential. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — We’re getting to ride a wave that really started around 2000. Prior to 2000, denominations planted churches, not really churches or networks. We saw the birth of networks around 2000 in the U.S. It’s hard for people to realize, but like in the church planting world, groups like City to City and GlocalNet and Acts 29 and ARC and Church Multiplication Network and Stadia and New Thing Network, none of them existed.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — Literally in a five-year time period, we saw the birth of all these church planting networks, and that happened to coincide with that we saw that need to start Exponential to serve those networks.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So We we were a little bit the right group at the right place, advocating for the right thing.Todd Wilson — And I do think that generally the the wonderful thing is that as that needle is starting to move and the visibility is getting more and more, the next generation wants it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, I would agree.Todd Wilson — They want the scorecard of that. So I feel very optimistic that we’re still a ways away from 16%, but the needle is moving in the right direction.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would echo that too. I think there is, um you know, one of the couple years ago, I had one of those ages in my life flip over with zero on the end that you kind of notice and you reflect back on life a little bit. And I would say one of the things I’ve noticed over, you know, almost 30 years of ministry is this issue is has become more normative. Like it’s it’s a part of the conversation. It’s not that everyone’s doing it, but it’s in the dialogue, which I think is is wonderful.Rich Birch — Well, I, so you know, there’s, you interact with a lot of church leaders across the country. You interact with a lot of people, you have a pulse on a lot of, you know, what’s going on. And there’s a growing sense, you have flagged that there’s a growing sense among leaders that there’s just something wrong. It’s like, you know, there’s like a stink in the bottom of our, our, garbage that’s like, oh it’s a little bit stinky. It’s not like overwhelming, but we can’t put our finger on exactly what that is. Rich Birch — They can’t necessarily name it, but we feel it. We kind of see that there’s maybe something in the way we’re doing what we’re doing that isn’t working. What are you hearing as you sit across the table from church leaders in across the country, you know, around all of these things that we’re talking about?Todd Wilson — Let me describe it a couple of different ways. I think the the word I would put on it is an angst. I think if you look at the definition of an angst, there’s a there’s a growing and an underlying angst. um I’m going to say, if I’m descriptive of the angst, that might not be the way people would exactly say it but it’s how I translate what I’m hearing.Todd Wilson — We are working a lot harder to reach less people and we don’t like the cultural Christian product we’re getting. We’re working a lot harder. We’re spending more money to reach fewer people. And we’re just having this angst that the product we’re producing is a little bit too much consumer cultural Christian as we’re working harder and spending more money. And that leaves somebody full time, know, if I mean, if you’re a full time vocational pastor, there’s an angst that sits in the middle of that dynamic going on. Todd Wilson — My mentor and friend, Robert Lewis, who led Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock for years, Robert’s handed off the leadership back in 2005. Robert describes it this way. He did the foreword on my recent book, and when he read and reviewed the book, he said, Todd, oh my goodness, this is first and foremost a walk down history lane. It’s like going back and looking at history. Todd Wilson — But he said, here’s the thing. I had this angst in 2005. Everything was up and to the right. We were growing. We were doing new campuses. We had started a church planting. Like we’re doing all of the stuff. People are turning to us. They’re looking at what we’re doing. We had started a leadership conference. And I just had this angst that something wasn’t right.Todd Wilson — And he said, I couldn’t name it. He said, I needed a therapist. But where does a megachurch pastor who’s having nothing but success with up and to the right, who’s feeling angst about the system, where do you go for therapy in that? He’s like, I didn’t know whether to feel like I was being ungrateful or what.Todd Wilson — And his words were, as you’ve traced the 75 years of the church growth movement and its evolution into a consumer-driven operating system, you have named my angst. I wish I would have had this book in 2005 to name my angst because half the battle is getting our hands around understanding why we’re feeling the way we do.Rich Birch — Yeah, I was talking to denominational leader within the last year to kind of add a bit more flavor even to that angst, who was saying, and this is a fantastic denomination, you know, Jesus loving, you know, fantastic group of people um and have, you know, very similar what you’re saying, like lots of good things going on.Rich Birch — And this was one of those like, After dinner conversations, you know, long ah a long ways away from a bunch of leaders, we were just chatting on the sideline. And he said, you know, the interesting thing, when you look at our tribe, his movement, he rattled off all their stats. We have a certain number of churches. We have a certain number of pastors. We have a certain number of, you know, baptisms every year. It rattles all that off.Rich Birch — And he said, you know, if you were to look at where we were 20 years ago, the number of churches is the same, the number of, and rattled off all these stats that are the same. Like we’re baptizing the same number of people, the attendance is the same, the the like all these things. He said, the only thing that’s gone up in the last 20 years is we’ve doubled our staff head count. There’s twice as many staff today as there was. And when I read, heard about your book and you talk about this angst, I was like, ooh, that’s exactly what he was describing. He’s like, wait a second. what’s happening here. And him as a denominational leader, he had the same read, hey, there’s something wrong with the way we set this thing up. Rich Birch — So your book, let’s actually dive into a little bit. It starts really at 70 year arc from Donald McGavron from 1955, all the way to today. And so for a leader who’s never really stepped back and thought about the history of like, what, how did we get here? It’s the name of your book. Why does knowing what got us to where we are today, this kind of consumer operating system that you describe, why does, how does understanding that help us as we think about the future?Todd Wilson — It’s a really good question. And I’m not sure, honestly, that I when I, when I set out to write this book, that, that that was even driving me to begin with, but very quickly that became the, I realized that’s why I need to write this book.Todd Wilson — So let, let me explain. And I need to give you a little bit of background to explain, because it’s an important question.Rich Birch — Yep, yep, for sure.Todd Wilson — So when I think about the moment that, that I realized we had a problem. Like that that, okay, we’re on this trajectory, things are moving the right direction to the 16%, and I’m back in the leadership of Exponential now. And I’m realizing, oh my goodness, we really do have a problem. And here’s here was what that looked like. Todd Wilson — I believed we had started learning communities and we had very vibrant learning communities And our learning communities got started because we felt like we need to shift the paradigm of people’s measure of success in the scorecard of church. It was very much about we need to shift paradigm. Alan Hirsch was involved with this on how do we shift from just growing large things to growing decentralized things that saturate. And it was very much about scorecard.Todd Wilson — And if you think about it, we’re wanting to move the needle from 5% to 16%. That’s a scorecard thing. So our initiating event was scorecard. But as we got into these learning communities, which in my opinion were the best things we were doing at Exponential. I mean, they were six to eight month learning journeys and we would rock people’s paradigm.Todd Wilson — We really would. People would go through it and be like, Oh my goodness, I got to have a different view of success in the church.Rich Birch — Right. yeahTodd Wilson — And guess what? They’d go home and Sunday’s coming. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — There’s, services to run, there’s people to pastor, there’s things to do. And the aha moment for me came, Rich, when I realized the the whole definition of insanity, that if you just keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for a different outcome, but that’s insanity. And here I am trying to lead a national organization to see a change in scorecard to move the needle to 16%.Todd Wilson — And I remember the day that I realized we’re not going to get there with the operating system we have in place in church right now. This operating system is not capable of getting us to the 16% number.Todd Wilson — That was a personal crisis. I’m leading an organization that’s up and to the right that the needle is moving. But as a futurist, I’m realizing we’re not going to get where we need to be with the operating system in the church. So the the operating system part was what drove me to start writing this book. I’ll let you ask a question there, and then we’ll circle back to the how does it relate to understanding how we got here, though.Rich Birch — Yeah, so ah just to underline what you’re saying there, um you know in in other conversations, I’ve heard leaders say, you know it’s like, um you know what you know what you reach people with is what you end up keeping them with. And so if what I hear you saying, just putting, I think, other language around it, but correct me, is kind of a consumer-oriented or a consumer cultural operating system that we’ve we’ve used as a church… Todd Wilson — Right.Rich Birch — …you know, obviously by definition, if you ah use a um consumption-based model, that doesn’t, leave you it’s very difficult to turn around and say, okay, now become a multiplier. You know, we got you here as a consumer. Okay, now how do we make you a multiplier? Is that the core pain?Todd Wilson — It is. And Rich, you’re painting the picture of why looking back to understand how we got here is important. If it’s true, that are ah If it’s true, and I want to suggest people ought to go look at it for themselves, that the underlying operating system that has evolved over the last 75 years, it’s not where it started with Donald McGavern in 1955. And there was never bad intentions by any of the good people through the 70 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Todd Wilson — We have evolved from what was originally one thing. into a consumer model that is way more focused on success is growing big, success is making converts, not necessarily disciples. And we we can diagnose that if there’s a problem today, and I suggest there is a problem today, then how we got here and understanding how over 70 years, what was intended to be one thing, gradually (like the frog getting boiled in cold water) turned into something else.Todd Wilson — We’ve got to go through the the, if we really want to change the operating system, and I’ve seen how hard it is, guys can have the paradigm shift. We need to change. Then they go back home into the operating system that they’re operating in. And it is really, really hard to just throw off one operating system and embrace another oneTodd Wilson — And I wouldn’t even encourage people to do that. Don’t go home and just change your operating system overnight. But if you do want to make thoughtful, progressive change, the best way to do it is to start by going back and learn the lesson of how did we get where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — How did things get off track to where to where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — And that’s what ended you know, I started out the book really to go after understanding the operating system itself. And very quickly came to the conclusion, oh, we I’m not sure how we’re going to move to a new operating system if people don’t go through the hard work of looking back and understanding how well-intentioned people over time have delivered for us what we have today in a flawed system.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, I know, again, from my own personal experience, not to bring this back to me, but to my own personal experience, again, it’s been interesting to see similar patterns. You know, every couple years, there’s like some new idea that comes up in the church. And oftentimes I’m like, yeah, this is just like of rehash of a thing I saw 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago.Rich Birch — It’s like, oh, this is is brand new. It’s like, ah, it’s echoes of things we’ve seen in the past. So why don’t we just kind of give people a flyover or a walkover of the kind of eras that you kind of define as you went through the book, just to give people a high level. Rich Birch — Ultimately friends, you know, I’m encouraging you to to do two things out of today. One is to pick up, I think this could be a great book for you and your team to go through. You and your leadership team, buy copies of this, read it. I think it could be an interesting book for you or, and go and listen to Todd’s interview with Carey as well. Carey just takes longer in his podcast and has more time. So there’s going to be, there’s lots packed into that as well. Rich Birch — But why don’t you kind of give us a flyover of the eras? And then maybe when you think about each one of those, something that was like, really positive that came from that area something like hey there’s something good there or maybe there’s something there that we’ve got to be cautious about as we think about the future.Todd Wilson — Yeah. And just to be clear, Rich, you know this, ah I’m a local church guy. My calling is a local church. I’m still on staff at a local church. I love the local church. So this part of the, difficulty for me in spending two years and over a hundred hours of interviews and putting this timeline of history together is I love the church.Todd Wilson — And I I, don’t know that I’d be sitting here talking to you if it weren’t for several of these eras I’m getting ready to name to you. So you’ve got really, I think a common thread through across these areas as we jump into them is typically apostolic, evangelistically driven leaders who really want to reach people. Hell is real. Lost people are going there. We got to reach them. And I think that’s the driving factor across all these eras is well-intentioned people…Todd Wilson — And if I can start with the end point, I think we’ve sort of co-opted the more holistic disciple-making growth engine that’s capable of generational disciple-making with strategies for institutional programmatic growth that are not capable of reproduction. They’re very good at growing large things and reaching lots of people, but not necessarily making, you know, through relational disciple making, disciples who make disciples who plant churches that plant churches.Todd Wilson — So here’s how I would do the flyover. When I got started writing this history, I thought I was doing one chapter of this history in another book. Rich Birch — I love it.Todd Wilson — And one chapter turned into two chapters and three chapters. And eventually my editor said, Todd, you just need to do a full book.Rich Birch — Well, that’s a book.Todd Wilson — And it ends up turning into the longest book I’ve written because of the 75 year history. And ah Rich, seriously, don’t, people don’t need to feel bad if they don’t know all the history. I, I’m like a where’s Waldo through a lot of this history. I’ve had a seat at the table for a lot of the stuff through these eras.Todd Wilson — Until writing this book, I did not know how all the dots connected across these eras. And then it became there were so many, oh, oh, oh. So here’s here’s the shot I’ll give to you. Ididn’t really I knew I had heard of Donald McGavern. I knew he was considered the father of the modern church growth movement. I’ve never, prior to writing this book, read about him, gone off and studied him. Gary McIntosh is his by is Donald McGavern’s biographer. So I spent a lot of time with Gary. He pointed me in the right directions.Todd Wilson — And here’s what I learned. Donald McGavern, born in the late 1800s, international missionary in India. um His father and mother were missionaries in India. He came from the mission field and his context was the international mission field. Todd Wilson — Now, get this as the starting point in 1955. He’s an international missionary. He has planted 15 churches himself in his career, none of which ever grew to more than 100 people. So you got to let that sink in. The father of the modern church growth movement planted 15 churches, none of which grew to more than 100. And yet he’s the father of what we consider now the modern church growth movement.Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.Todd Wilson — So the kind the context was, he became fascinated after reading a research report on why some churches in provinces in India were growing and others weren’t. Sometimes churches in the same village that were growing and just down the street, others weren’t.Todd Wilson — So he kind of took a scientific approach, the study of church growth. Like let’s study this like it’s a science, like what’s causing some churches to grow. And he he had very clear conclusions out of that, but you know, a handful of conclusions of what’s causing that.Todd Wilson — And so ultimately, when he came off the mission field by 1960, 61, he started the Church Growth Institute, not for U.S. pastors, but for international missionaries who were on furlough to come home and learn about church growth principles that they could take back to the international mission field. He had no interest in U.S. pastors. Todd Wilson — So for multiple years in the 60s, he was doing that. And when Fuller wanted to start their International School of World Missions, one of their best faculty member ratings was Donald McGavern. So they invited him to come become the founding dean of the the Fuller School of World Missions.Todd Wilson — But he only agreed to do it if he could bring the Church Growth Institute with him. So by 1970, you’ve got that up and running. He’s built his team. He invited a guy called C. Peter Wagner off the mission field to come be on his faculty staff. And in 1970, 71, Peter Wagner convinced Donald McGavern that they ought to run one class for U.S. pastors on church growth.Todd Wilson — And the rest is history. That one class, it just turned into, Imean, people were very interested in it. Denominations became interested. And literally within a couple of years, you’ve got this up and to the right people latching on to church growth science.Todd Wilson — And that starts the process, you know. Even from the beginning, you start to see a little bit of co-opting away from McGavern’s things. Not fast, but a little bit. Todd Wilson — So right on the heels of that, in the 70s then, you’ve got this young kid, ah Bill Hybels… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — …who’s running you know going to go into business and he’s running a street ministry with youth. He’s being mentored by Robert Shuler.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — And Shuler’s got the possibility thinking, think outside the box, very apostolic. Turns out Shuler not only mentors Hybels, but there’s some mentoring of Rick Warren. And so you’ve got the birth of the seeker-sensitive era then.Todd Wilson — You know, if the first era was the McGavern-Roots era, now we’ve got the seeker-sensitive era. And, you know, that can be a positive or a negative stigma. For me, in 1976, I’m in middle school going into high school, not a Christian, live down the street from this movie theater called the Willow Creek Movie Theater. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — And my mom drags us kicking and screaming into the Willow Creek Movie Theater. We were the avatar family for the Seeker Sensitive family movement.Rich Birch — Right. Movement.Todd Wilson — From Seeker Sensitive, you get out of that the what Peter Drucker and Bob Buford would call the large church phenomena and the birth of Leadership Network then with the large church phenomena, which became the megachurch phenomena.Todd Wilson — You’ve got Rick Warren and his masterful work with the purpose-driven church. Rick’s able to put handles on this church growth part, but Rick was a disciple of Donald McGavern, so he’s got the McGavern roots. Todd Wilson — You’ve got Hybels with the Shuler roots. And in that 80 into the 90s with the birth of the Global Leadership Summit and the other, you’ve you’ve got this very influential large church phenomena, purpose-driven, being shaped by, you know, in large part, the combination of Leadership Network, Hybels, Rick Warren… And that brings us up to you know about 2000. Todd Wilson — And just as a flyover, I would then call the era of the externally focused church. You’ve got the rapid fire birth of church planting networks. You’ve got multi-site. People don’t realize prior to 2000, there’s less than 50 multi-site churches.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — Leadership Network engages it in 2000. And from 2000 to 2010 you see an up, I mean, radically up and to the right.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The externally focused church, same thing. Rick Russo has book right in that time period. The missional guys, right in that time period. So the common theme between these church planning networks, the missional guys, the externally focused guys, the multi-site, is we’re now looking outside of ourselves.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — But in large part, we’re still looking outside of ourselves as growth strategies for our things. If you really go look under the hood of a lot of those.Todd Wilson — And then I would say coming out of the externally or outwardly focused era, 2015 to 2025, I just have no other name than the disruption era. As I was doing the research on this book, um I had to stop at like 12 major disruptions that happened in that time period with COVID right in the middle. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so that’s the…Rich Birch — Political upheaval. There’s a bunch in there in that same, you know, yeah, that there’s been a schism.Todd Wilson — You’ve got deconstruction of faith.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You’ve got cynicism. You’ve got platformed individualism with the birth of social media. Now anybody can be their own, you know, playlist influencer. There’s just so many disruptive factors in there.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Now you look at all those disruptive factors with the evolution of what’s happening in the church and the church operating system. And it leaves us on a very shaky foundation at that point that, you know It kind of brings us up to where we are now, and you can either be a pessimist at that or an optimist. And I choose the optimist path that we’re poised for a new day and a new operating system is my prayer.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And friends, as you can see, you just got a real thin slice of, you know, just all the various phases that you do such a great job unpacking for us to help us really understand how we we got here. It was It was wild, it’s wild thinking about a lot of that because I remember, you know, various phases of those over the last particularly 25 years, you know, seeing that up close and seeing, you know, kind of the impact that has had and then wondering about the future and where we go from here. Rich Birch — So thinking about the future and, you know, obviously you’ve, um you know, you’ve you’re making a clear clarion call around, hey, we’ve got to think differently than the consumer driven operating system. We’ve got to we’ve got to come up with something different. After all of that, um and we’ve kind of covered this already, but I’d love to make sure we kind of hone on this, have this resonate with people that are listening in. Why is it so difficult for that system, for the consumer-driven operating system to to really ultimately produce healthy reproduction and multiplication and in churches? What’s structurally ah broken about it? And what what would be some first steps we should be thinking about change to the future as we think about, okay, where we go from here? Todd Wilson — Yeah.Rich Birch — How do we, you know, build on the positive stuff, but also look for something different as we look to the future? Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think we don’t have to make it complex, Rich, if we just keep trying to come back to simplicity for a minute. Like the system that has evolved has actually become pretty complex when you think about it. I would say if we could just focus on, I’m not even going to say changing overnight, but if if I’m a lead pastor, if I’m on staff at a church, I’m really focused on disciple-making as the core mission and growth engine of the church. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Like what is it, most churches are going to say our mission is disciple making or it’s going to be part of it. They’re going to say we have a culture of disciple making, but it is not what the data shows. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — You know, again, 95% of churches do not have a culture of disciple-making. They have a culture of program activity. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so I’m not an advocate of changing everything overnight, but if you want to shift from a culture of program activity to a true culture of disciple-making‚ it has to start with the lead minister having a simple, reproducible, in-practice disciple-making approach that is being modeled for the… I don’t mean discipling the staff. I mean there’s people the lead pastor are personally discipling, modeling that simple, reproducible process. Todd Wilson — Where we’re starting to see traction and where I think the breakthroughs are going to come in getting us to the new operating system of the future, it is going to start, and it’s it’s happening right now, with pastors who say, you know, if I’m really honest, I’ve been preaching the last 52 weeks. I’ve been leading meetings. I’ve been doing, I’ve been doing, I’ve done, but I’m not really personally making disciples. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And I think it’s going to start with the lead pastor, the elders, senior people saying, If we could only have one metric of success in the next 12 months, it’s not growth, it’s not the activities we do, it’s not the new building. If we only have one measure of success, it’s how many disciples have I personally, relationally been involved in? me Not how many have I preached to, not how many outreach events have we done where we’ve got, but what have I personally done on the disciple-making front?Todd Wilson — And I don’t want to make it more complicated than that. That’s what we’re missing right now.Rich Birch — That’s good. No, that’s really good. Yeah, that’s good. I love the practical takeaway of, um yeah, it’s like, who are the three people in your life that you’re actually discipling? Let’s start there. Rich Birch — So this is kind of a sidebar to it.Todd Wilson — Can I just look real quick?Rich Birch — Yes. Yep. Push back. Yep.Todd Wilson — So David Putman, who’s part of what we do at Multipliers, David’s longtime kingdom guy.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You should have him on as an interview here. David is completely focused on what he calls the 5-3-2 right now. Five simple reproducible principles, three rhythms, and and two relationships. So it’s a triad of three people that just keeps reproducing.Todd Wilson — Anybody can do it. A ninth grader can do it. A lead pastor can do it. I’m watching this model take different groups by storm right now. And whether you embrace the 5-3-2 or some other model like it, the key is going to be having a simple, reproducible process that works for the lead pastor and anyone else in the church. Same model.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah we had David on back in 2020 and I’m like we got to get him back on uh the podcast. Rich Birch — So sidebar issue, so this is not something we’d you know kicked around ahead of time but it’s kind of adjacent to this. So I am not a I'm not a teaching pastor. Similar to you. I’m not, i never saw myself as a lead pastor. I’ve always been in the like, Hey, my job’s to be in the second chair, cheering for other lead pastors. I’ve worked for um really over my career as an XP three incredible communicator lead pastors who it would appear like, and it is, they, all three of them, God gifted them with this ability to speak and gather crowds. Like that was like core. And, and I, I’ve spent a lot of time like listening to them and watching them. And part of it just appears to be like, it’s definitely a gifting that’s going on there.Rich Birch — And I, over time, ah questions like the following would come up that I would I'd struggle with, where it’s like, it would appear like this person can gather a lot of people, and we can build more chairs in front of that person and people will hear that person and they’ll they’ll take steps towards Jesus. Rich Birch — And I understand that that’s not, or that’s not a full picture of discipleship. That’s one piece of the discipleship puzzle, but it’s not… And the the kind of organizational pressure is, okay, let’s keep figuring out how to build more seats in front of this person and and their gift. How do we get them to leverage their gift well? Rich Birch — And to be honest, I’ve been in conversations where I’ve been the voice of like, I want to line 100,000 people up in front of this person to hear this person speak because I think the way they talk about Jesus is different than what I’ve heard other people say and it it’ll make a difference. Rich Birch — That is, I think, at the center of this tension that there’s some there seems to be something about the gift of teaching that it’s not, I don’t know whether it’s not evenly distributed, or there’s like a brokenness in humanity and we only want to listen to certain kinds of people. I don’t know whether it’s one of those two things. So all I’ve done is describe a problem and I’m going to say, comment on it, Todd.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think you’re right on the mark. I think I want to affirm that, you know, I mean, everybody has their definitions. I believe the preaching role is, and and the teaching and reaching is a piece of the discipleship equation.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — I think if I’m defining the problem statement, We have made it the biggest piece… Rich Birch — Sure. Todd Wilson — …instead of a piece or a playing a role in it. So I think the issue is that how big we’ve made it. Like you, I was an executive pastor for years. And when I look back on that time, my role was not about holistic relational disciple making that could be the growth engine of the church. and it It was how do we get as many people in seats in the auditorium on Sunday? We need great marketing. We need great outreach.Todd Wilson — And again, I think all of those play a role in the disciple-making process ultimately. But let’s just be honest, that’s not disciple-making itself. It plays a role in the disciple-making process.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So the elephant in the room here is, how do we scale disciple-making? If I if I could be If I could be the czar of this, I’m not, but if I could be, I want the genius at the end. I want the unique gifts that are represented across the whole mosaic and the church, starting with that dynamic creature that can attract the crowd. I want it. Todd Wilson — But I also want those senior leaders of the organization I really want to be focused on what is our growth engine and what is our holistic disciple-making process. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And the number one thing I want from those senior leaders is not their unique gift. I want their modeling, their personal modeling of the simple, reproducible, disciple-making growth engine that anybody in the church can do. Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — I mean, that that preaching gift you’re talking about, that that one lead pastor can do, how many other people in the church can do that?Rich Birch — Right. Not many. Yep.Todd Wilson — So there’s their paradigm. So we need them doing it.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — But I would argue what we need them doing even more than that inspiration is modeling the simple reproducible disciple making thing that people know that’s how we’re going to win here.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I’ve that lines up, I’ve said it at probably, well, not a thousand times, but hundreds of times with lead pastors over the years that in the context of this conversation, I would rather them weave in the discussion about their discipleship relationships as like just a normative part of conversation rather than the, we’re doing six weeks on discipleship and how to become disciple making. I’m like, if you just pepper that stuff in week in, week out, it just is a normative part of the conversation that changes culture. Rich Birch — The kind of like, we’re going to make it a program. We’re going to brand it. We’ve got a great name on it. And my experience has been, it’s it’s a little bit like nailing jello to the wall. There’s there’s actually some of that containing of what we’re talking about actually kills the exact thing that we’re trying to do. And so, man, I think there’s a real tension there. And how do we help those people? Rich Birch — Because it’s not like we want them to do a worse job. It’s not like, hey, if you could stop talking in a way that attracts a crowd, that’s not the answer. But we’ve got to, like you say, how do we move them into those personal relationships? That’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation…Todd Wilson — My question would be, Rich, what what would happen…Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — …if an average lead pastor went on a one-year journey to to of disciple-making themselves? Call it a triad, call it four, five. They’re always, over the next year, going to be in a disciple-making small micro group… Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Wilson — …and all of their preaching is going to be informed.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — That’s their laboratory of learning.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s their paradigm. Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — That’s their paradigm. And now they’re bringing it to life, not just as periodic examples, but, you know, my whole frame of reference of my library is what comes out of that experience. Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — And our problem right now is that’s just lack. It isn’t that it’s inserted a little bit. It’s just lacking.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, this has been great. what ah What a great conversation. And as you can tell, friends, there’s a lot we could talk about there. And a lot you know just there’s a rich conversation that could be had around this. Rich Birch — Let’s let’s pivot and kind of talk a little bit about the book specifically. i want to make sure people pick up copies of this. Again, the name of it is How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. People can get this on Amazon. Are there other places that you would send people if they want to pick up copies of this?Todd Wilson — Yeah. So if they go to church-growth.org, church-growth.org, that’s the book’s homepage. You can actually get the free PDF there. You can get the free audio version there. There’s a full wiki there that people can contribute to. What you kind of mentioned it in passing, but I’ll highlight, it is impossible to read this book and not see yourself in it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.Todd Wilson — Anyone who’s been a Christian for a while, they, the editor of the book said the power of this is going to be, she said, I can tell you the page in the book that I entered the story. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Todd Wilson — So you’ve got the free PDF, the free audio, the wiki, and then for people that just want the paper versions, you can get it on Amazon.Rich Birch — That’s great. And we’ll link to that friends so that you can, you know, find that quickly in the show notes and, and friends, I would encourage you again, to me, I think this could be a great resource to do with your leadership team, as I mentioned earlier. It would be a great kind of conversation starter and really context setter for us to think through these issues as we think about the future. Rich Birch — So kind of as we, as we come to close up today’s conversation, any final words as we wrap up today?Todd Wilson — Rich, I just appreciate the work you’re doing. I want to be an encouragement to pastors. Don’t let this book be, it’s not a deconstruction book. It’s not, oh my goodness, the church has fallen apart.Rich Birch — No, yeah.Todd Wilson — We need to keep plugging away doing what we’re doing, but we also have to have an eye on the future that this operating system that has evolved, everything has a beginning and an end. And this operating system, I believe, is in its final days. I think we’re we’re seeing you know less and less effectiveness with it. And I think we just need to be in a posture of giving permission to the next generations to do some trial and error and experimentation and not be locked into the paradigm of the of the past inheriting previous things.Rich Birch — No, fantastic, Todd. I appreciate you being here. And I would echo that, you know, you’re you’re the kind of leader that’s in our corner trying to help us get better. And so I appreciate the voice that you’ve had for for decades. And so I really appreciate that. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you, get connected, follow along with Multipliers where do we want to send them online?Todd Wilson — Multipliers.org can get me to all the different ways from email to phone to social media. So multipliers.org.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Todd. Appreciate you being here, sir.Todd Wilson — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate it.

In this special live episode of the Young Adults Today podcast, Josiah and Micah Kennealy sit down with real young adults at Emmanuel Young Adults to talk about adulting, faith, finances, community, and staying on fire for God in 2026. From feeling overscheduled, overbooked, and overwhelmed to discovering intentional rhythms of prayer, fasting, Scripture, journaling, and godly community, this conversation is full of practical wisdom and raw honesty. You'll hear Joseph, Diego, Zach, Shaylee, and Ellie share what they love about young adult ministry, their hardest challenges in adulting, and how they're fighting distraction, loneliness, and digital overload. Josiah also unpacks insights from Carey Nieuwhof's book At Your Best—including the idea of a daily “green zone” for deep work—and why turning off notifications might be one of the most spiritual decisions you make this week. If you're wondering how to: Find real Christian community Manage your time, phone, and priorities Navigate finances and the future Stay passionate for Jesus in a distracted world …this episode is for you. www.youngadults.today

Episode 120 – BTG Listener-Favorite Series: A past conversation with best selling author, speaker, and podcaster Carey Nieuwhof and our podcast host, Mykelti Blum. In this episode, you will hear Carey share insight about making choices today that will help you thrive tomorrow. He also touches on the idea of breaking a stress cycle and moving towards a thrive cycle to help you maximize the twenty-four hours you are given each day. Learn more about Carey and access his podcast, The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast, and resources at careynieuwhof.com. Follow @careynieuwhof on social media. Learn more about BTG at mnbtg.org or follow @mnbtg on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. Subscribe to the BTG Podcast on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify, YouTube, or listen on WordPress. BTG Events & Resources: 2026 Thrive Conference October 9-10, 2026 Mayo Civic Center (Rochester, MN) Featuring Lisa Bevere, Christina Girma-Hanfere, Martha Tennison, Susie Larson (speaker and emcee), Amber Gerstmann (emcee), and Substance Worship Afternoon & Main Sessions, “LIVE at Thrive with Susie Larson” — a BTG Podcast Recording Experience, Lunch with Speakers, the Thrive After-Party, Shopping, and More! Groups of 40 or More Who Register by September 20 Will Receive Reserved Seating. See All Ticket Types, and Register: First-Time Guests to Thrive in Rochester Can Register for ONLY $20 FREE Tickets for 2026 High School Grads and North Central University and Trinity Bible College and Graduate School undergrad students! Email info@mnbtg.org to Request Your Coupon Code. (These free tickets are not transferrable.) Register for Early Bird Tickets by August 31. BTG Missions Trips and Giving Opportunity Learn About Our 2025-2026 BTG Missions Partners, and Give A Tax-Deductible Gift:: mnbtg.org/missions. Apply to join a 2027 BTG Missions Trip to Cambodia or Cambodia and Vietnam: mnbtg.org/trips. 2027 BTG Leadership Conference February 19-20 Lake Geneva Christian Center (Alexandria, MN) Featuring Lisa Seaton and More! Main Sessions (including the Lund Leadership Award Presentation and the Leadership Exchange), Workshops, Brainstorming Groups, the After-Party, Exhibitor Shopping, Networking, and More! Register: mnbtg.org/leadership. Nominate a female leader of excellence for the 2027 Lund Leadership Award by Oct 31, 2026. 2027 Single Moms Retreat  June 4-5 Lake Geneva Christian Center (Alexandria, MN) Featured Guests: Dr. Keisha Spivey (speaker) and Derrick & Ashley Benoit (worship) Main Sessions, Multiple Workshops, Lots of INCLUDED Activities, Giveaways, and Services. Learn More & Register to Attend, Exhibit, or Volunteer: mnbtg.org/retreat. 2027 Garden Coffee Free Missional Event for Women and Girls of All Ages! July 2027; Lake Geneva Christian Center (Alexandria, MN) Enjoy Refreshments, Worship Together, and Hear from a MN Global Worker. You’ll Also Have the Opportunity to Invest Into Missions (to Support Our 1000 Sisters Fund). Learn More at mnbtg.org/1000sisters. No RSVP Required; Invite Your Family and Church Community! Please take a moment to rate and review the podcast to help others find this resource, as well!

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Alvin Sanders, President and CEO of World Impact, an organization committed to equipping leaders to build healthy churches in every community experiencing poverty. After decades in pastoral ministry and leadership development, Alvin has become passionate about helping ministry leaders avoid one of the greatest threats to long-term effectiveness: burnout. Are you serving faithfully but feeling increasingly exhausted? Wondering how to sustain ministry for the long haul without sacrificing your health, family, or relationship with God? In this conversation, Alvin shares the personal lessons that transformed his own leadership after experiencing burnout. Tune in as he offers a practical framework for building a ministry that lasts. When work becomes worship. // Ministry itself can quietly become an idol. He didn’t intentionally choose work over God, but somewhere along the way, serving Christ replaced walking with Christ. Spiritual disciplines gave way to ministry responsibilities. Prayer, Sabbath, retreat, fasting, and personal communion with God slowly disappeared beneath endless demands. The result was a ministry that looked productive on the outside while becoming spiritually unsustainable on the inside. Return to the basics of spiritual formation. // Rather than searching for complicated solutions, Alvin returned to the foundational practices Christians have embraced for centuries. Prayer, engaging Scripture, fasting, Sabbath, retreat, generosity, commitment to the Church body, and intentional spiritual rhythms are not optional extras for ministry leaders. They are essential practices that sustain healthy leadership. Just as championship football teams return to blocking and tackling when they lose, pastors must continually return to the spiritual basics that anchor their lives. Pay attention to the warning signs. // In hindsight, Alvin sees numerous warning lights he ignored. His daughter once looked at him during dinner and innocently asked, “Daddy, why are you here?” because she had grown so accustomed to his absence. He gained significant weight, neglected his physical health, ignored emotional exhaustion, and consistently placed ministry ahead of family. None of these issues appeared overnight, but together they revealed a leader drifting toward collapse. Burnout is often less about one dramatic event and more about a thousand small compromises over time. Healthy leaders steward their whole person. // Pastors often underestimate the importance of caring for their physical and emotional health. Exercise is no longer something he squeezes into his schedule. Now, it is part of his workday because caring for his body directly affects his ministry. Likewise, emotional health is not separate from spiritual maturity. Leaders who fail to process stress, trauma, criticism, and disappointment eventually carry those burdens into every aspect of ministry. Healthy ministry begins with healthy people. A three-legged stool for sustainable ministry. // At World Impact, staff health is built around three interconnected priorities: spiritual formation, engaging stressors, and leadership development. Spiritual formation keeps leaders rooted in Christ. Engaging stressors helps them process trauma, maintain healthy boundaries, and avoid adopting a “savior mentality.” Skill development—including emotional intelligence, leadership growth, and contextual ministry effectiveness—equips leaders to serve wisely. Remove any one of these three “legs,” and long-term ministry becomes unstable. If you’re approaching burnout, don’t ignore it. // Alvin closes with practical encouragement for leaders who recognize themselves in his story. First, honestly acknowledge where you are instead of pretending everything is fine. Second, intentionally rest by embracing Sabbath, vacations, and healthy rhythms. Finally, if the burden runs deeper, don’t hesitate to seek help from a trusted counselor. Burnout isn’t a badge of honor—it is a warning that something needs attention. To learn more about Alvin or World Impact, visit worldimpact.org or connect with Alvin on LinkedIn. You can find his expanded book Redemptive Poverty Work on Amazon and his recent webinar on redemptive poverty work here. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they're reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you've been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, I know you’ve got a million things going on this week. In fact, if you’ve got a lot of things going on, you really need to set aside the next half an hour or so to lean in on this conversation because I really think this is going to be helpful for you. I know it’s the kind of thing that you and your team is wrestling with plus we have a return guest on the podcast which what that indicates to you is this a person I want you to hear from. Honored to have Reverend Dr. Alvin Sanders with us he is the president and CEO of World Impact which empowers leaders to build healthy churches in communities of diversity and poverty. When urban leaders so when urban leaders are empowered that to own and lead their own ministry, individuals, families, and neighborhoods ultimately flourish. Super excited to have him with us. Enjoyed his episode from maybe a couple years ago and honored to have you back today. Alvin, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Alvin Sanders — Glad to be here, Rich, and thanks for having me back.Rich Birch — Oh, it’s great to connect a little bit. Why don’t you bring us up to speed? Tell us a little bit about yourself, about World Impact. Give us some context if people don’t remember.Alvin Sanders — Yeah, so President, CEO World Impact – our vision is a healthy church in every community experiencing poverty. We’re working to solve the problem that 95% of the world’s pastors have no formal ministry training whatsoever.Alvin Sanders — So we we try to bring that training to them and make it affordable and accessible. I don’t know if you’re paying attention to what’s going on in the Christian educational world right now in terms of universities, but it’s ugly out there. Rich Birch — Yes.Alvin Sanders — So we are really trying to make sure that people are equipped and they can be able to do ministry in the in the context that they’re called to do it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah. And I really, friends, I would commend you to to, if you don’t know World Impact, you should get to know them. You know, all them and the team do such good good work here. Well, we I want us I want you to take us back to 2007, so almost 20 years ago, which is insane to say that that’s 20 years ago, because it doesn’t feel like 20 years ago. It feels like just yesterday.Rich Birch — What was going on in your ministry and life? Yeah, kind of bring us into that part of the story. Let’s start there.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So in 2007, I was wrapping up a 10-year project of planting and starting a church in inner city Cincinnati. And the denomination that I was a part of, the Evangelical Free Church of America, had offered me a position to leave the pastorate and to come work for them and run what’s called our “all people initiative”.Alvin Sanders — So me and my wife prayed, thought about it and said, yep, you know what? It’s time to make a good transition. And we made that transition. Yet for the first six months after that transition, we were, it was really a weird dynamic in the fact that when we would run into other people, people would say, hey, you guys look so much better than…, I mean, they didn’t say it this directly… Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — …but essentially what they were saying is you look so much better now that you’re out of the pastorate.Rich Birch — Right. What happened? You look great.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. What happened? You look good. Did you, did you lose weight? Did you, you know, glasses, whatever, you know?Rich Birch — Oh, no. You’re like, thank you, I think.Alvin Sanders — Yeah, and Rich, this wasn’t like a small amount of people. It was like every time we ran into people. So after about six months of this, we were like, okay, so what’s going on? And then we when we looked back in hindsight, felt like the last year or so of being in the pastorate, we had burned out.Alvin Sanders — And up until that point, I really didn’t know what burnout was. You kind of sort of hear about it, but you don’t really think about it. Why? Because you’re too busy, right? So you don’t sit back and think about ordering the chaos of ministry or anything of that nature.Alvin Sanders — And so we vowed that going forward, never again would this happen to us. So essentially I divide my ministry life in the two halves. Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — The first half is pre-2007. It’s kind of like how people look at the pandemic, right? Rich Birch — Yes.Alvin Sanders — So it’s like pre-2007 and then post 2007. And so we began to implement a series of things that helped us to be able to do ministry in a sustainable way and not experience burnout because you do not have to burn out doing ministry. That’s what I’ve learned since 2007.Rich Birch — Yeah, when you so when you think about that time, yeah, I love that. Like, hey, friends, thanks for telling me I look great. Or you look terrible a year ago. Okay, thanks.Rich Birch — When you look back on at that moment, you’re like, hey, I think we were burnt out. What were some of those those patterns, habits, evidence, signs that you look at and were like, oh, that is what was going on there? You know, what what was it that, you know, got you, yeah, that you kind of saw it yourself in that moment as you looked back?Alvin Sanders — In hindsight, what I looked at is we were basically on autopilot. When I first started that ministry project, I felt a call. I felt like I was walking with the Lord. I felt the Holy Spirit’s presence. You know it was like hindsight, it’s like the book of Acts stuff. You know it was kind of like God was right there. I was energized. I was excited. I truly wanted to make a difference in the lives and the hearts of the people who were there. I wanted to make a difference in the community. Alvin Sanders — But that last year or so, I look back at it. It was just 60, 70 hours a week, flip the switch, doing what I need to do. Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Very jaded, cynical all the time, low energy, you know, vacation didn’t matter because I had to go back to work. You know, these are, you know, it was sort of like a call of duty, so to speak. It was this is my duty to do it.Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Interesting.Alvin Sanders — Right.Rich Birch — So now you made a few decisions to, you know, in the words you use was, we do a series of things. We changed the way that we work. What were those things that you changed? What were some of those things when you look back, now that you’re on the other side of that, what were some of those decisions you made to say, hey, we’re going to live in a different way? And what was what was that? You know, what is that? What were some of those?Alvin Sanders — Well, one of the big things that I realized, and it’s going to sound elementary when I say it, but I think as pastors and people in ministry, we forget about the basic things.Alvin Sanders — You know, I’m a big football fan, Ohio State Buckeyes to be exact, right? And so I remember, I can’t remember which one of those coaches, but I remember one of those coaches, I was listening to an interview one day and they said, hey, you know, when we lose, our first practice back is we go back to the basics.Alvin Sanders — Just basic stuff. That’s all we do. Blocking, tackling, you know, simple things. And one of the things we did was we went back to the basics of what it means to be a Christian. You know, over the years, they call that spiritual formation.Rich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — So the basic things of are you praying? Are you fasting? Rich Birch — That’s good. Alvin Sanders — You know, you know, just if you type in spiritual formation in Google, you’re going to get a gazillion things that pop up. Right?Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Alvin Sanders — Well, we should be doing many of those things. Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — You know, retreating. You should not be accessible all the time. Sabbath. You know, it’s Hebrews 11 tells us that, you know, we’re among a great cloud of witnesses and that great cloud of witnesses are our people who, any and everybody who has ever been Christian ever in in in the entire history of the world. And Rich, hate to break it to you, but it’s not rocket science of how to be a good Christian.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — We just ignore it. Rich Birch — Yes. Right. True. Alvin Sanders — Because there have been people before us who have worked out, hey, these are the rhythms. These are the things that you do…Rich Birch — Yes.Alvin Sanders — …you know, to be Christian. Rich Birch — Yes. Alvin Sanders — And what had suddenly happened is I made work my worship.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s painful.Alvin Sanders — The job became what I worship. Now, I didn’t intentionally set out to do that, but I had so much passion and I had so much zeal to want to make a difference in the world that suddenly the rhythms of what made you a Christian took a backseat to the work that I was doing.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I want to come back to that. I want to put a bookmark in you made work your worship. I think that’s a powerful idea. I want to come back to that. But just before we leave this idea, you know, I love that the football analogy. I had and a nephew that was a receiver, college ball receiver. And I remember talking to him, you know, once as well. Rich Birch — And I was like, like, tell me, what you know, kind of what is your practice look like? And how are you, how do you keep on top of that? And he said, he said, well, you know, I’ve got these three formations, these three patterns that we run. And he’s like, I just run those formations all day long. Alvin Sanders — Yes. Rich Birch — It’s like, you just, you know, it’s like the same, you know, four steps this way, three steps that way, you know, turn, you know, it’s like, I’m just do that for four years. We’re just going to run that, which stuck with me similarly that, you know, I think oftentimes, you we can complicate this and we can say, hey, that you know we can complicate staying connected to praying, fasting, Sabbath, reading scripture, these kinds of things. We can drop them. Rich Birch — Were there any other warning signs looking back now that you missed? Again, in hindsight, you look back and say, oh, there were some some things on the dashboard that were blinking and I didn’t notice that you were leading up to this breaking point.Rich Birch — Were there other things in your life besides these dropping off that you know, that you, again, in in hindsight noticed and maybe are looking for now?Alvin Sanders — There was zero what they call work/life balance. Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Zero. Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — At that time, I was working on my PhD. I was pastoring a church full time. Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — And I was running the church’s Christian Community Development Corporation that was attached to it.Rich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — And oh, by the way, I was also teaching classes at the local Bible college.Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Alvin Sanders — And had a wife and I had two kids.Rich Birch —Yep.Alvin Sanders — And so I remember during that period, a huge red flag that in hindsight, I’m ashamed to say, I did not pay attention to. One Friday night I was sitting down and I was eating dinner with my family and my youngest, Gabby, she looked up in her little toddler face and she said, Daddy, why are you here?Alvin Sanders — And I said, what do you mean? I’m I’m sitting here. I’m I’m eating dinner. You know I’m here. You know she’s and she and she was so confused that I was home.Rich Birch — Oh my goodness.Alvin Sanders — So that’s so that was a neglect of family. Right. Rich Birch — Yes. Alvin Sanders — That was a huge red flag. Rich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — Gained a ton of weight because I was not taking care of myself physically. I think that’s something we underestimate in ministry. Rich Birch — I agree. Alvin Sanders — You know, to the point now that I even I count when I go work out, that’s part of my work day.Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.Alvin Sanders — Because I said I can’t be a successful minister if if I am not in shape. So I see that as a you know, I don’t have this sort of dichotomy of the physical and the spiritual, all that. No, I it’s all one. You know, it’s going to hurt me spiritually if I’m out of shape, if I’m not eating right, I’m not properly fit and all those types of things.Alvin Sanders — So I wasn’t taking care of myself physically. I clearly was not taking care of myself emotionally.Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — We are emotional beings. We are emotional. I have come to believe, and this is maybe a controversial point, but I don’t know. It’s my belief. I have come to believe, Rich, that we are emotional beings that rationalize our lives with facts.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.Alvin Sanders — But there’s a lot of research out there that says we can think we’re rational all we want, but what we really do, we have never made a rational decision that does not agree with our emotions.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — So we must take care of ourselves.Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — I was not taking care of myself emotionally.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Therefore, out of shape physically, neglecting family, which by the way, God says that’s the first ministry, you’re supposed to lead well. So if you’re not leading your family well, it really doesn’t matter what else you’re doing, you know. And just an emotional, just not emotionally regulated is the easiest way that I can say it. Didn’t know I wasn’t emotionally regulated, but I wasn’t.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. You know, the Carey Nieuwhof, friend of mine, ah you know, he says around this whole that topic, he says, you know, if you’re an alcoholic and you stumble into work one day drunk, you know, you get fired, or you or there’s a consequence, right? If you are a gambler and you’re addicted to gambling and you know you lose your house, that’s gonna show up and you know you’re gonna lose your house, there’s consequence to that. And you know one of those might be you lose your job. Rich Birch — But this area of like overworking, if we overwork even in good things, you’re rewarded for it. Like, you’re like, way to go. You’re a good soldier.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, there’s, it’s almost like a badge of honor in ministry to be exhausted for Jesus. When you said, man, I made work my worship, that stung because I was like, ooh, I think I’ve done that before.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. I mean…Rich Birch — So take us inside, you know, ah other leaders’, you know, heads. How does that mindset quietly quietly set us up for this crash? How do we, you know, kind of unpack that even more for us?Alvin Sanders — Yeah, I mean, I say all the time I’m a recovering work workaholic.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — You know, that’s the way I put it.Alvin Sanders — And then a big thing that really set me up for this that I didn’t realize is that I come from a family of workaholics. You know, my father, who is my hero, other people have heroes outside of the household. My father is my hero. He’s 87 now, that’s my guy.Rich Birch — It’s so good. Yeah.Alvin Sanders — He, I grew up in a household, my father grew up in Jim Crow, Alabama. And he overcame so much. Rich Birch — Right. Incredible.Alvin Sanders — He went to when he joined the military, military was was sort of like a saving grace. He was in the military for 30 years. Rich Birch — Wow. Alvin Sanders — And he went to night school and he got two degrees in night school while working during the day.Rich Birch — Wow.Alvin Sanders — You know, my mom was an old farm was a was a farm girl, you know. Protestant work ethic. You know, you want she would say, son, you want to kill time, work it to death. You know, idle hands is the devil’s workshop. You know I grew up on all these idioms.Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes.Alvin Sanders — And, and so that was in my DNA. And just by the fact that we live in United States of America, where busyness is a badge of honor, I believe you said, and we all are under the Protestant work ethic, you know, you know, who, what, what, what bum works only 40 hours.Alvin Sanders — I mean, you want to get ahead.Rich Birch — It’s true.Alvin Sanders — The minimum is 50.Rich Birch — Yeah. Right. Right.Alvin Sanders — You know, when I was pastoring, how many people in my congregation, you know, in terms of the white collar crew, you know, I had ah I had all spectrums in the church that I was in, I pastored. It was no big deal for them to just be gone all the time.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — If you get offered a promotion, who would tell you don’t accept it for the sake of your family?Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Of course I’m going to accept it. It’s more money… Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — …because more money puts us in a better position…or doesn’t it? Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — It might, or might not. So counterintuitive thinking is something that we have to do. I mean, I’m in a place now where um God has blessed me that I have a lot of opportunities and I limit my opportunities. Because I say if if I’m gone all the time again, guess what I’m on the road to? Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — You know, and we may have a little bit more money, but then, you know, I’m in the I’m in the empty nesthood stage of season of life and I’d be missing valuable time with my wife. So it’s a reordering of the priorities, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Alvin Sanders — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. And this is one of those areas where I see hope in you know next generation. You know i see hope in Gen Z leaders. There there is, like I think, a healthy pushback on on some of this area, which is I think is positive. I know sometimes, you know, I’m Gen X, classic Gen X, born 1974, the lowest birth rate year of the 20th century.Alvin Sanders — Yes. Yeah.Rich Birch — And, you know, and I think sometimes, you know, my peers and particularly the folks older than me, that generation, they they really did, they handed down this idea. And you know, there’s good change happening, I think, on this front. Rich Birch — But so how do you think about this now? So, you know, as you’re thinking about the future, or maybe you’re coaching your team, people you’re interacting with, you know, how do you kind of articulate this, maybe with a framework or thinking around this, so that we don’t just pass on more burnt out organizations?Rich Birch — How how are you helping, you know, lead an organization? Because I think there’s the reason why asked that question is I think it can be easy for us folks that are in charge. I run my own organization. I like often joke, like my boss is a bit of a taskmaster because it’s me, you know. But you know, when, but when we’re the people in charge, we get to set the pace. We get to lead in a way. How are you leading different now? How are you helping your people understand this different now? What are, how are you, what’s that look like for you?Alvin Sanders — Yes. So we, we have baked in in the cake at World Impact. Um, three things, three areas. We talked, we touched on it before spiritual formation, you know, that’s a big deal here at World Impact.Alvin Sanders — You know, we, we really want to make sure that people understand your work is not your worship. You know, part of our sustainable strategy is, you know, we care more about who you are than what you do. And we mean that. Alvin Sanders — And it’s funny because when you first say that to some people, they go, oh well, you don’t want me to work. It’s like, no we didn’t say that. What we said is we understand you are a human being. And we care about you and we’re going to invest deeply in you as you invest deeply into our our our vision. And so um making sure that work’s not to worship, make sure that people understand our identity is in Christ. Alvin Sanders — Understanding also the the spiritual disciplines. We incorporate eight particular spiritual disciplines. I probably should know them the my head, but I don’t. But let me see, I mean, I can roll off the top of my head.Alvin Sanders — Let’s see, you got church membership. You know, we, we, and It’s not cool, you know, to be a church member and people love to kill the church and criticize the church and this that the other. But I leave that to the accuser of the brethren to use the KJV version and use that to the devil.Rich Birch — Nice.Alvin Sanders — Jesus came to establish the church. Period. End of discussion. So you ought to be part of one. So, you know, we encourage our folks to be part of churches, to fast, to pray.Alvin Sanders — We have three times a year we’ve shut everything down and we have prayer days. You know, we we encourage people to be generous with their money. We encourage people to empower others. You know, so there’s we we we encourage we have a personal retreat days that we offer people for for, it’s a work day, but it’s a different kind of structured work day. We say we’ll give you one day a month where you go off and you examine yourself. You do a spiritual examen off basically, you know, off the old St. Ignatius type of spiritual examen. And then you also look at your professional development. You go off and we do that and we’ll pay you for that.Rich Birch — Right. That’s great.Alvin Sanders — You know, so there are a number of things that we do in terms of developing a rhythm. We call, you know, having a rhythm. Rich Birch — That’s good.Alvin Sanders — You know, so a lot of spiritual formation. And then the other s is we look at the, you could think of these S’s as three S’s or a three-legged stool that serves the foundation and they’re all intertwined.Alvin Sanders — So besides spiritual formation, we also encourage people to engage stressors, right? We there’s there’s a way that you work in the world. There’s I got this from my friends at Praxis that there’s three ways that you can engage the world. You can engage the world um exploitatively, ethically or redemptively. Rich Birch — That’s good.Alvin Sanders — So we want people to we want our staff to engage the world, and engage their jobs in a redemptive manner, which is, you know, sacrificing our lives in the pattern of Jesus Christ. Right. That’s we follow the pattern of Jesus Christ, that that we are doing this in order to make the world a better place.Alvin Sanders — We also have a posture of that we’re not the saviors. Many people who are in ministry, we get in it for the right reasons, but then we think that we’re the king and not a subject of the kingdom. Right. And so we think that whatever ministry we’re in, whether it’s urban, suburban, whatever it may be, that we’re the saviors. It’s like, no no, no, no, that’s not the right posture. The right posture is that to be utilized by God, you know.Alvin Sanders — And then also anybody who’s been in ministry any any time in their life, any, you know, they are going to experience a lot of what’s called secondary trauma.Alvin Sanders — You know, like mine was very intense being in a very violent neighborhood and ministering there. But even in suburban context, there’s a lot of things. Now, Rich, don’t know if you ever experienced this, but, you know, people, the sheep bite. Rich Birch — True.Alvin Sanders — They talk about the pastor. Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — They do a lot of things. You know, you’re misinterpreted all the time. There’s a lot of hurtful things that happen to you… Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true. Alvin Sanders — …from an emotional perspective. And if you if you try to blow them off or roll them under, you know, let them it’s water under the bridge. No, no, no. Those things need to be engaged. Alvin Sanders — So that’s keeping the right posture, making sure we keep the right pace in ministry. So we have one school of spiritual formation, one one one leg stool of engaging stressors. And then the third leg stool is is skill set development. Alvin Sanders — And we have to understand that developing the right skills will not save us from burnout. That’s a false dichotomy. People think, oh, well, if I just develop X, Y, and z well, then, you know, I won’t burn out. No. um There are three primary skill sets that I think people need to understand when it comes to any type of ministry or wherever they’re doing it. A big one is emotional intelligence.Alvin Sanders — It’s there’s a guy by name of Daniel Goldman who really popularized the concept. He wrote this book years and years ago called “Primal Leadership”. And that book makes the case that therere there are things that you can develop to emotionally regulate yourself.Alvin Sanders — There’s a book they they don’t call it emotional intelligence, but it’s another classic called “Leadership and Self-Deception”. It’s a classic book which teaches you how you can engage the workplace and and by emotionally regulating yourself, which I think is directly correlated to spiritual maturity.Rich Birch — True.Alvin Sanders — There’s also the skill set of leadership development. I believe that everybody is a leader, right? We don’t all have the same responsibilities as leaders, but there are things that we can do to develop ourselves to become better leaders in the situations that we find ourselves in. Alvin Sanders — And then there’s also a a skill set that we can develop where we engage our ministry context in a dignified manner. So that’s sort of like our three-legged stool at World Impact, you know, spiritual formation, engaging stressors and skill set. And you can’t, just like a stool, if you remove one of the legs…Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — …the stool will not work. So all three have to be intertwined and working together to give you that strong foundation. And if you do those things, I have found that, you know, you won’t touch burnout. Because… Rich Birch — Right. It’s so good. Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So I’m very, very focused on that. And we have interwoven all of those things within the DNA of World Impact.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.Alvin Sanders — Yeah, I love…Rich Birch — There’s there’s so much to unpack there, friends. And there’s, you know, in six minutes there, you gave us what a great picture of how we should be thinking and leading in our environments. I love, particularly, you know, you talked you touched on the emotional quotient, the eq issue.Rich Birch — And, um you know, I’ve had a a friend of mine say, you know, it’s it’s impossible to be spiritually mature if you’re emotionally immature. And I think…Alvin Sanders — One hundred percent.Rich Birch — I think that’s true. And there are, we all know these people who they they walk around like they’re spiritually mature, but they’re they’re, you know, emotionally immature and it comes off. It’s like they’re bleeding. It’s like the internet’s made for these people.Rich Birch — Like they are, those people get good followings, which is terrible. And you know, they get people around them who are just like, yes, sir. Yes, sir. It’s usually sirs. Unfortunately, it’s a lot of guys… Alvin Sanders — Yes. Rich Birch — …you know, we’ve got to fight that. And I love that you’re, you’re attempting to do that, you know, at, you know, in the organization you lead at World Impact, I think is, is incredible. And one of the things, you know, calling this out, I’m not directly engaged in urban ministry, but the thing I, I think is, like, I think every ministry has its stressors to it. Alvin Sanders — Yes.Rich Birch — I think every ministry has trauma related to it. And I think what you’ve outlined here, we can apply really in any context. Alvin Sanders — Yes.Rich Birch — But I do want to underline for our listeners, the fact that this has come out of a context where, again, I don’t want to stigmatize or create stereotypes around urban ministry, but there is a lot of trauma. There is a lot of stress in the ministry.Alvin Sanders — Yes. Rich Birch — You know When you’re dealing in communities that are experiencing homelessness and poverty and you know, you know at the conflict, at the you know the epicenter of racial conflict, and you know all ah all of that creates the context that makes it next to impossible to serve in. And the fact that you’re leading there, I just want to commend you you know on that. Alvin Sanders — Yes. Rich Birch — And so this is actually a part of, well, talk to me about the expanded second edition of “Redemptive Poverty Work” and how does that tie into what we’re talking about today? Because I want to move people even towards that call to action out of today’s conversation.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So the the things that I’ve talked about that I just talked about that we instilled at World Impact, it definitely works in in any context, no doubt about it. What I tell my suburban colleagues is that whatever you experience in the suburbs, 10x it. And that’s in the urban context.Rich Birch — That makes sense. Okay, that’s good.Alvin Sanders — Just 10x it. It’s not that you don’t experience these things.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — It’s that it’s much more intense…Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — …within the urban context.Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — So the expanded edition of “Redemptive Poverty Work” is is my attempt to really have our vision at World Impact come to fruition. Because at World Impact, if our vision is a healthy church in every community experiencing poverty, we cannot not talk about burnout.Alvin Sanders — Because the burnout rate within the urban context, because of the 10X that happens down there in in this in the urban community—but increasingly in suburban communities, to be quite honest with you. The same dynamics are happening in certain suburban communities—is that you have to be able to deal with it. And the big way that you deal with it is that you are intentionally engaging those things that can cause you to burn out.Rich Birch — That’s good. Alvin Sanders — Cause you cannot have a healthy church unless you have spiritually formed pastors who are engaging stressors and who are developing the skillset to make the community a better place.Alvin Sanders — So, It was basically by doing things in the field and spending a lot of time with our partners that I said, you know what, these folk need an expansion. Because when I wrote “Redemptive Poverty Work” a couple of years ago that we talked about, it was a little booklet and it was more academic.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — But what I realized is, hey, these folk need to know how to implement this in a practical sense. So that’s what the expanded version is about. It’s not only teaching you the principle, it’s like, here here’s how you can apply this to your life. It’s sort of like a field handbook, so to speak.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. I think it’d be great for people to pick up, you know, a copy of this. And, you know, I think it could be really helpful for them as they’re thinking about, you know, ministry in any context. Even to help if there are folks that are listening in, you know, that serve in a suburban context and they’re trying to gain, you know, a bit more understanding of there are urban, but you know, brothers and sisters as they’re, you know, leading there. I think this could be a helpful resource.Rich Birch — For folks that picked up the first edition, you know, should they pick pick up a second? I know you’re not just trying to sell books, but like, help me understand, you know, obviously you’ve added a lot to it. For folks that are familiar with your work, what would your, you know, kind of what’s your recommendation that, you know, for them?Alvin Sanders — Yes, because the the first Redemptive Poverty Work booklet is really only one chapter in the expanded edition. It’s, as I said earlier, it’s really about how to apply and how not to burn out.Rich Birch — That’s great.Alvin Sanders — The whole thing is it assumes that there’s a point in your walk in doing your work of the ministry that you’re going you’re going to hit a wallRich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — I don’t know anyone in ministry, let alone urban ministry, who hasn’t at some point hit a wall.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Right. To go back to sports analogy. Right. Talk about how if you’re a rookie and you’re coming into the and NBA, you only play like 40 or some college games. NBA has 82 games. No matter how skilled you are, no matter how much you play, about game 50, you’re going to hit a wall because you’ve never really played at that intense level for that long.Rich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — Same thing with ministry.Alvin Sanders — At some point, you’re going to hit a wall. So within this urban context, you know when you hit that wall or hopefully before you hit the wall, read this book and begin to implement it in your life. It’s a failure for you just to buy the book and read it. Rich Birch — Yes.Alvin Sanders — A lot of books you just write, you buy it and you read it and you go, oh, I got the knowledge. I’m good. No, this book is like, read it and apply it. And I can tell you, it’ll work if you do so.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Where do we want to send people to pick up copies of the book? Where online? you know how how can they How can they get their hands on it?Alvin Sanders — Yeah, just go to Amazon. you can get it off of Amazon. Redemptive Poverty Work Expanded Edition. Rich Birch — That’s great.Alvin Sanders — You type that in or you can type in Alvin Sanders and I’m sure it’ll pop up. Rich Birch — That’s great. Alvin Sanders — Yeah, we’d we’d love for you to get it. You know, got paperback and hardback versions that are there. Rich Birch — Nice.Alvin Sanders — And then you can also go on YouTube. We just had it. We launched it last week. We had a webinar… Rich Birch — Great. Alvin Sanders — …around the topic of redemptive poverty work. It was about an hour long. So if you’re really interested in this topic, you can check that webinar out as well.Rich Birch — Nice. Yeah, we’ll link to that in the show notes to make it even easier for folks to to find that. We’d love for for people to track with you, Alvin. You’re doing such a great, great work. So let’s take us back to 2007.Rich Birch — Let’s say there’s a leader who’s listening into, well, I know that there’s a leader who’s listening in today. There’s at least one… Alvin Sanders — Yeah. Rich Birch — …in the couple thousand people that are listening in who are heading towards where you were in 2007. Not the new part, not the new job part, but the like, oh, I’m burnt out.Alvin Sanders — Yes.Rich Birch — This is not good. Maybe today they’ve been listening in and they realize, oh, wait a second. Maybe they had a similar thing with their kid. Hey, dad. Hey, mom. Why are you here? What’s one thing you’d want them to do this week? What’s one action step that they could take coming out of today’s conversation? Alvin Sanders — Well, I would say, I’m going to cheat. I’m going to give you more than one. But first is to admit where you’re at.Rich Birch — That’s good.Alvin Sanders — Because there are so I hate to say it. There are some faith traditions where it’s downright almost sinful to admit that you might be burned out. What? You don’t you don’t pray enough. You don’t do this. You don’t do that. Say, you know what? I’m tired. I’m still committed, but I’m tired. I’m jaded. I’m whatever. So the first thing is to embrace that. Alvin Sanders — The second thing is, you know, get some rest. You might it might just be an Elijah situation. You know, Elijah wanted to die and God said, no, man, just just go lay down.Rich Birch — Yeah, have a nap.Alvin Sanders — You know, you just had a really, really intense situation. Go lay down. Take some time. Go take a nap. Get some refreshment. Get some food. Look at your schedule and say, am I actually taking at least one day a week off? You know, are what’s your rhythm of rest, right? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Alvin Sanders — Are you resting as hard as you’re working?Rich Birch — That’s good.Alvin Sanders — Are you taking vacation? You know, or is vacation for the weak, right? Are you taking your paid holidays off? Do, actually really start to take the commandment of Sabbath seriously… Rich Birch — That’s good. Alvin Sanders — …and actually start to rest?Alvin Sanders — And then there are some of us, and, you know, and there’s nothing wrong with this either. We may be too far gone, and we may need to take some time to go see a counselor, and to unpack things. Rich Birch — That’s good. Alvin Sanders — And to unpack some emotional wounds and things of that nature. So I would say, you know, first, acknowledge where you’re at. Second, actually start to rest. And then third, if these things aren’t really working, don’t be prideful. Go see a mental health counselor.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Alvin, you’ve been a gift again to our audience. Thank you so much for for being here today, for helping us think through these issues and take some steps. If people want to track with you or with World Impact, where do we want to send them online?Alvin Sanders — Well, if you want to track with me, you know, as a good Gen Xer like you, I’m on LinkedIn. So you just place to find me.Rich Birch — Love it. Love it.Alvin Sanders — It’s LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn. I have an Instagram account. I ain’t been on that Instagram account in forever. So, you know, that’s just not me. But you can find me on LinkedIn.Rich Birch — Love it.Alvin Sanders — If you want to personally interact, talk, whatever. Great thing to do on LinkedIn. And then the other thing is go to worldimpact.org and you can learn a lot more about World Impact and what we do.Alvin Sanders — We’d love to serve you.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much for being here today. I really appreciate you taking some time to be with us.Alvin Sanders — All right. Thanks for having me. 

Show NotesLearn More about The Emerging Leaders LabGlenn Packiam's The Resilient PastorMark Buchanan's What is Left of The NightGive to our $30,000 Match CampaignThe Pastorate ConferenceThe Pastorate's City MeetupsThe Pastorate Pastors RetreatEpisode NotesThis summer, we're taking you inside the two pastoral formation cohorts at the heart of The Pastorate: the Emerging Leaders Lab and the Lead Pastor Fellowship. Over four episodes, we're sharing the best teaching from this past year's Lab and Fellowship and sitting down with participants from both programs to hear what an intentional season of formation actually does in the life of a pastor. This is the first episode of our four part series, replaying some of the best moments from last year's Emerging Leaders Lab. The Emerging Leaders Lab just wrapped up its third year and kicked off its fourth year. In the 2025-2026 cohort, 24 pastors gathered monthly on Zoom to sit under the teaching of a remarkable lineup of guest teachers, and to do the thing you rarely get to do with someone you've only read or listened to: ask their questions, out loud and in real time. Each guest came to teach around one of the eight formation areas that shape the Lab, covering everything from calling and community to character and craft. In this episode, our team pulled together the moments the cohort named as most impactful.In this episode you'll hear from: Glenn Packiam on why pastors need a constellation of relationships and the diverse voices every pastor needs around them: rulers, peers, sages, healers, and friends.Carey Nieuwhof on burning out in the middle of a decade of explosive growth, finding your line, and how this generation of pastors can finish differently.Helen Burns on why balance is a misaligned goal, what to anchor to instead, and the confession she keeps hearing from pastors: my soul is so tired.Jason Ballard on the difference between the friends you play with and the deep friends who know your shadow side, say the hard thing, and have to be pursued on purpose.Lance Odegard on why you can't know your calling until you know your design, blind spots and the true self, and the game-changing leadership question: how do you experience me?Mark Buchanan on the difference between who you're called to be and what you're called to do, and why the calling on your life can't be revoked.With thanks to the many other voices who contributed to the Lab this past year, including Darrell Johnson, Chris Price, Mark Peters, Milissa Ewing, and Preston Pouteaux.Partners Would you consider giving to our summer match campaign? Every donation in June will be matched by a generous donor up to $30,000.If you are seeking ways to guide your congregation into the next step of their faith journey, we welcome you to explore the Canadian Bible Society's Ministry Toolkit. The Ministry Toolkit is designed to help your church or ministry deliver online or in-person Bible-based programs for the special audiences you may serve.

In this episode, I sit down with J.R. Briggs to talk about something that can change the way we follow Jesus, lead others, and build relationships: asking better questions. We discuss why Jesus asked so many questions, how curiosity keeps our hearts soft, and the simple questions that can lead to deeper conversations, greater wisdom, and a more meaningful life. Whether you're a leader, a parent, or just trying to grow in your faith, this conversation is full of practical takeaways for life between Sundays. References:  The Loneliness of Leadership with Carey Nieuwhof https://open.spotify.com/episode/0GdBYgryOnYWckjaCnbC4V?si=0cff7d629d82403d   Mission Haiti is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to love Jesus, love others, and make disciples in the country of Haiti. They live out that mission by training and coming alongside current and future leaders for the cause of Christ. To learn more, visit Mission-Haiti.org Vern Eide Motorcars is a growing employee-owned company that offers sales, service, and financing of automotive, motorcycle, and power sports lines, including Acura, Ford, Chevy, GMC, Honda, Hyundai and Mitsubishi brands. Whether you live locally or across the country, visit https://www.verneide.com/   Subscribe to Life Between Sundays on YouTube and watch the full episode: youtube.com/@adamaweber Sign up for The Crew:https://www.adamweber.com/thecrew

Does marketing really matter for churches and young adult ministries? In 2026, the answer is a loud yes—if you want to actually reach Gen Z and young adults. In this episode, Josiah Kennealy sits down with Dillon Smith (CMO.Church, former marketing lead for the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast & Life.Church Open Network, and former content manager for Carey Nieuwhof) for a masterclass in church communications, digital outreach, and AI. Connect with Dillon Smith: Website: CMO.Church Join the Art of Leadership Academy and look for the Digital Outreach space: https://careynieuwhof.com/the-art-of-leadership-academy/ More about us: www.youngadults.today Resources & Action Steps: Sign up for the West Coast Leader Gathering August 12-13th, 2026 in Irvine, CA: https://www.youngadults.today/west-coast-conference Give to the mission of youngadultstoday: https://tithe.ly/give?c=5350133 Resources: Free eBook "10 Steps to Starting a Successful Young Adult Ministry: https://www.youngadults.today/book/starting-a-successful-young-adult-ministry Join our FaceBook Group Community with 2500+ leaders: https://www.facebook.com/groups/796270437396021 Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/youngadults.today/ 

Most people think you need to clean up your life before God will accept you. Carey Nieuwhof closes out the Counterfeit Faith series by unpacking why that's exactly backwards. Two men, same temple, completely different prayers. One had everything to offer. One had nothing. Jesus said only one went home right with God. If you've ever felt like you're not good enough to come to God, this is the message you've been waiting for.

Most people think you need to clean up your life before God will accept you. Carey Nieuwhof closes out the Counterfeit Faith series by unpacking why that's exactly backwards. Two men, same temple, completely different prayers. One had everything to offer. One had nothing. Jesus said only one went home right with God. If you've ever felt like you're not good enough to come to God, this is the message you've been waiting for.

Christina  Hello, everyone, I'm Christina Darnell, the managing editor of MinistryWatch. Welcome to the MinistryWatch podcast. In today's extra episode, I talk with Warren Smith about some news items that are slightly (even significantly) outside of our normal charity and philanthropy “beat.” So, Warren, what's up first? Warren I subscribe to Kate Bowler's Substack and read this week that she had spoken at Church of the Resurrection in Kansas City. When she wrote that this United Methodist congregation had 25,000 members, I was a bit incredulous. Christina United Methodist churches do not usually grow that large, especially these days. Warren So, I did some fact-checking, and she is right, though most online sources also say that weekly attendance at the church is closer to 6,000. Still, that is big. The church is centrist in theology and has so far managed to stay in the United Methodist Church without suffering a meltdown in attendance, though its growth has flattened in recent years. I am going to keep my eye on the church. It will be an interesting bellwether for the future of the UMC. Christina Moving on, there's a leadership transition coming up at a significant Christian organization. Warren After nearly six years of service, Kevin Van Horne has stepped down as Executive Director of International Fellowship of Evangelical Students/ USA. His last day was Friday, May 15, 2026. According to a statement from the organization, “Kevin led IFES/USA through a season of significant change, helping to serve our global fellowship and partners well. We are deeply grateful for his leadership and for the ways God has worked through him.” Dave Shepherd (Director of Finance) has been appointed to serve as Interim Executive Director. IFES was a MinistryWatch Shining Light Award winner in 2023 and has maintained excellent ratings from us since then. Christina Warren, I know you are always interested in demographics and statistics. But something special caught your attention this week. Warren That's right, and before I say what that was, let me as some rhetorical questions. What is the most significant problem facing America and the world? Nuclear winter? Global warming? Artificial intelligence? I would submit for your consideration the coming depopulation of the earth. For at least 30 years, most reputable demographers have been saying that the world population growth is slowing and will likely top out soon. By the year 2100 the world will be in the midst of a significant population decline. Christina And one thing that caught your attention is just how much this population decline will impact all areas of life on earth. Warren That's right. This decline will have enormous implications for every aspect of life. Cities built for millions of people will disappear, leaving a rotting infrastructure. Economic growth will be impossible. We are already seeing towns in the Midwest and West disappear. That trend will accelerate. Christina I've got to admit, Warren, that that sounds a bit melodramatic. Warren I think it's fair to be skeptical, but population demographics is one area of social science that has pretty sound prediction models. Birth rates have fallen to record lows, and they don't change that much from year to year. So it's actually pretty easy to predict what the population will be in the future. And the numbers don't look good. But if these predictions seem a bit melodramatic to you, I suggest reading a new article from The Atlantic, The Great Depopulation. A world with a shrinking and aging population will offer great opportunities for ministry, but for almost every country on the planet, it will be a culturally wrenching reality. Christina On May 17, an event called ReDedicate 250 brought speakers to the National Mall in Washington. The speakers included Eric Metaxas, Mark Driscoll, Sean Feucht, and Greg Locke – all men we've written about here at MinistsryWatch. Warren That's right. They are a part of what some are now calling the Dissident Christian Right. Christina What does that mean? Warren They are not quite Christian Nationalist, but not mainstream evangelical, either. Most assessments have judged the event as kind of a bust. A few thousand people attended, but DCR pundits had predicted many more. For example, The Christian Post reported that Robert Jeffress predicted the gathering “could be the nation's largest religious gathering in more than 50 years.” It is not clear what the attendance figures for this event forbode for the DCR movement, but the weak attendance was a surprise to me and to many who have been following the movement. Christina And there was a notable passing last week. Warren My friend Bob Woodson died last week at the age of 89. If you do not know about Bob's life and the legacy he leaves behind, I recommend reading John Stonestreet's excellent tribute. It was an honor for me to be a part of the Colson Center team that presented Bob with a Wilberforce Award in 2018. He was sui generis. One of one. I will miss him personally, and our country will miss his leadership. I helped arrange a trip for him to The King's College in 2010 to do a live interview with Marvin Olasky. That interview is worth a listen, and you can find it here. Christina Warren, you've mentioned before, that you are a fan of Carey Nieuwhof's leadership podcast. This week he dropped one of his most personal episodes ever. Warren He recounts how, about 20 years ago, he experienced a period of profound burnout. It is part of a two-part series on how to avoid burning out. I strongly recommend it. You can find the first episode here. Christina Warren, we need to wrap things up here. Any final thoughts before we go? Warren I'll be in Knoxville this week attending an event hosted by my former colleagues and good friends at The Colson Center for Christian Worldview. If you'd like to have lunch with me on Friday, let me hear from you. I'll be doing similar lunches in Denver and Colorado Springs in June. Let me know if you would like to join us. My email is wsmith@ministrywatch.com. Christina That brings to a close this EXTRA episode of the podcast. The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. I'm Christina Darnell, along with Warren Smith. Until next time, may God bless you.

You have more knowledge than you've ever had, and somehow you're more tired. More guarded. More prone to walk into a room and see everything wrong with it before you see anything right. You used to believe things would get better. Now you believe you've simply seen enough to know they probably won't. You call it wisdom. But it might be something else entirely.   Carey Nieuwhof joins me for a conversation I've been looking forward to for years, and he opens up in a way I did not expect. At 61, in the wake of 29 simultaneous external stressors, a rare blood disorder that nearly took his life, aging parents, the death of a father-in-law, and the loss of the physical sanctuary that had been his refuge, Carey is navigating what grief actually looks like for a leader who spent two decades not grieving anything. The phrase that has stayed with me since this conversation is one his mentor gave him 25 years ago: ministry is a series of ungrieved losses. We cover what that means in practice, why cynicism is not a character flaw but a predictable outcome of accumulated knowledge without adequate grief, how the shift from fluid to crystallized intelligence changes what leadership should ask of you in your 40s and beyond, and what Carey and his wife Toni are actually doing, not just saying, to finish well. There is something here that will not comfort you the way you're hoping to be comforted. Carey is too honest for that, and this episode is too important for that. If you have been running at a pace that leaves no room to feel your losses, this conversation is going to cost you something. Sit with it. Let it do its work. Guest Bio Carey Nieuwhof is a former attorney and pastor who leads one of the most listened-to leadership podcasts in the Christian space, with more than 800 episodes and over 36 million downloads. He is the author of several books, including the bestselling At Your Best, and the founder of the Art of Leadership Academy, a growing community of more than 20,000 leaders. He spent over a decade as a lead pastor north of Toronto before stepping away to focus on helping leaders at scale. He has studied burnout, cynicism, moral failure, and the patterns that separate leaders who finish well from those who don't. He brings to this conversation more than two decades of pattern recognition built at the intersection of personal suffering and serious study. Show Partner SafeSleeve designs a phone case that blocks up to 99% of harmful EMF radiation—so I'm not carrying that kind of exposure next to my body all day. It's sleek, durable, and most importantly, lab-tested by third parties. The results aren't hidden—they're published right on their site. And that matters because many so-called EMF blockers on the market either don't work or can't prove they do. We protect our hearts and minds—why wouldn't we protect our bodies too? Head to safesleevecases.com and use the code WINTODAY10 for 10% off your order. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my book "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

Discover the most effective ways to engage a community with church outreach ideas. Whether you're part of a small congregation or a large ministry, these strategies will help you connect meaningfully with your community. Join us as we explore innovative approaches that have proven successful in various settings.In this video, Jeff Brodie, the lead pastor of Connexus Church in Toronto shares innovative methods that have inspired many to rethink traditional outreach strategies and embrace new ways of connecting with people. By focusing on authentic relationships and genuine interactions, you can make a lasting impact in your community. Learn how to create an inviting atmosphere that encourages participation and fosters a sense of belonging.Jeff also shares about the remarkably smooth transition to the lead role from the founding pastor, Carey Nieuwhof.Utilize social media platforms to reach a broader audience.Host community events that cater to diverse interests.Encourage volunteerism to foster a sense of purpose and belonging.Develop small groups to build deeper connections.By implementing the most effective ways to engage a community, your church can become a beacon of hope and support. These strategies not only enhance community involvement but also strengthen the bonds within your congregation.Summary:"So it's community, then encountering God in an accessible way. I think in the attractional days, we were so worried about the weird that we pushed away from the weird to the point we lost the wonder of it all. The wonder disappeared and we got so focused on the imminent that we missed the transcendent."

Most people think there's one way to be lost. Carey Nieuwhof shows there are actually two — and the more surprising one has nothing to do with wrecking your life. In week 2 of Counterfeit Faith, Carey unpacks the parable of the prodigal son in a way you've probably never heard before. If you've ever felt like God owes you something for being good, this one's for you.

Most people think there's one way to be lost. Carey Nieuwhof shows there are actually two — and the more surprising one has nothing to do with wrecking your life. In week 2 of Counterfeit Faith, Carey unpacks the parable of the prodigal son in a way you've probably never heard before. If you've ever felt like God owes you something for being good, this one's for you.

In today's rapidly changing world, understanding the trends in church attendance is crucial for effective Christian leadership. As society evolves, so do the dynamics of faith communities, and leaders must adapt to these shifts to remain relevant and impactful.Carey Nieuwhof and Eric Bryant explore the future of the church in the context of modern challenges and opportunities. With the rise of AI disruption, many wonder how technology will reshape religious practices and community engagement. The potential for AI to influence church operations and outreach is immense, yet it also presents unique challenges that require thoughtful navigation.The interview delves into how Christian leadership can harness these changes to foster deeper connections and spiritual growth. By examining current trends in church attendance, we aim to provide insights that help leaders anticipate and respond to the evolving needs of their congregations.Summary:The church's future direction is human connection. I think the world is gonna be so profoundly disrupted. The disruption AI brings is going to be 10 times bigger than the industrial revolution and 10 times faster. So you don't even know what happened and all of a sudden you're there. Bad times for the world can be good times for the church.

My absolute favorite task manager is Todoist. I've been around the block and used all the major ones — from Remember the Milk to OmniFocus and everything in between. Todoist is the best for me.But a task manager only tells part of the story — it tells us what we got done.It doesn't tell us anything about how we were feeling that day. How many tasks did we move or ignore? How many have we checked off just so we'd stop seeing them?And it shouldn't. That's what task journaling is for.Here's how to get started:Pick three and only three tasks for the dayCheck in with yourself at middayAssess at the end of the day — what worked, what didn't, and whyDo this for two weeks, and you'll have a clearer picture of how you actually work — and what it takes to protect the time that matters most.Want some help?Try the Daily Three Task Journal app (currently in beta on TestFlight) or grab the free Notion template at streamlined.fm/app. And if you already use some form of task journaling, I'd love to hear about it — head over to streamlinedfeedback.com and let me know.Show NotesTodoistAt Your Best by Carey Nieuwhof (00:00) - What Is Task Journaling? (04:26) - The Daily 3 Task Journal System (06:59) - Understanding Your Green Zone and Red Zone (11:04) - How I Built an iOS App for This Method (13:17) - Where to Find the App and Notion Template Simplify your tech stack at  https://streamlined.fm/tools ★ Support this podcast ★

Christina Hello, everyone, I'm Christina Darnell, the managing editor of MinistryWatch. Welcome to the MinistryWatch podcast. In today's extra episode, I talk with Warren Smith about some news items that are slightly (even significantly) outside of our normal charity and philanthropy “beat.” So, Warren, what's up first? Warren Up first today is a podcast episode featuring Carl Lentz. Christina Are we talking about the same Carl Lentz who was a pastor of Hillsong New York and was famously involved in a number of scandals a few years ago? Warren That's the guy. And before I say more, Christina, I should say that as a Christian, I believe in redemption, restoration, and second chances. And the podcast I heard him on, Carey Nieuwhof's Leadership podcast, is one I listen to often. But his episode with Carl Lentz left me sad and confused. Nieuwhof asked the right questions, and Lentz often gave the right answers. But I still cannot help but think he needs to find a career out of the limelight as an entrepreneur or a business consultant and just stay away from church leadership and big platforms for a while longer. He says he is working on a book about his experiences, what he learned. I am sure it will be a bestseller. I will not be one of its buyers. You can watch or listen to the interview here. Christina But, Warren, you said you believe in second chances. When a pastor or ministry leader has a fall, what should they do? Are they permanently disqualified from ministry? Warren Well, in some cases, yes. It's interesting to me that sometimes even secular organizations understand that. If you get convicted of certain kinds of financial fraud, you receive a lifetime ban from working in the financial services industry. Do I believe a child abuser can be saved? Absolutely, but I don't want that person running a kindergarten ever again. Christina So what are they supposed to do? Go get a job at Home Depot? Warren Funny you should say that, because that's exactly what Phil Cooke says they should do. He wrote an article recently that I like, and that's exactly the title: “Maybe the Best Thing for A Fallen Pastor Is a Job at Home Depot.” “When leaders betray trust,” he writes, “rushing them back into the pulpit isn't restoration, it's denial.” I agree 100 percent. You can read the entire article here. Christina Let's change gears a bit, Warren, and talk about a topic that is important to us here at MinistryWatch. Warren   MinistryWatch exists to help bring transparency and accountability to Christian ministries. We have noticed that there is a growing transparency crisis in both ministry spaces and in the country at large. Read, for example, my article on the importance of Form 990s to ministry transparency, and the practice of some ministries not to file them. Christina This trend in Christian ministries appears to be part of a larger trend in the country and even around the world. Warren Transparency International just released its annual Corruption Perceptions Index. According to The Signal, “The United States hit its lowest score ever—extending a decade-long slide. The global average also fell to its lowest level in more than 10 years.” Christina Warren, you learned this week of the passing of your friend and ministry leader Jerry Eisley. Warren I did, and though our listeners have probably not heard of him, he's a guy who has quietly shaped an entire movement. There's an entire movement today of Christians and the arts. I think of Andrew Peterson and The Rabbit Room. Or Charlie Peacock and the Art House Movement. SD (Sam) Smith and his Story Warren. Even Gabe Lyons and the Q Conferences. All of these movements owe a debt of gratitude to Jerry Eisley, who died this week at age 76. When I was 20 years old and a junior in college, I had an internship in Washington, DC. My friend Jan Dargatz (who went on to become a successful writer and who also died recently) introduced me to Jerry and his wife Twila, and they offered to let me stay in their home in Georgetown until I could find a permanent place to live. I stayed in their basement apartment for a week, and that week changed my life. I had just read A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Vanauken, and — to me — Jerry and Twila were the real-life Van and Davy of that book. I wanted to be them when I grew up. Christina Just a year earlier, they had formed The Washington Arts Group. Warren That's right. They got me involved in The Washington Arts Group and I made friends that I still have today, including people like the actor Tom Key, Sen. Bill Armstrong, who went on to become the president of Colorado Christian University, and Cal Thomas, who I saw just a few months ago. On my many trips to Washington over the years I would often stop by Foxhall Gallery, Jerry and Twila’s business, and we would share a meal and often pray together. Jerry was one absolutely one of a kind. For me, the world is a different place without him in it. Condolences to his family and friends. Our consolation is that we shall meet again. Christina It's a big pivot from the Washington Arts Group to Cowboy Church, but here we go! Warren Yes, I guess that is a big pivot, but I think it was a pivot Jerry would appreciate. His tastes were expansive, eclectic, and he was all about people pursuing their calling in life, so – in a way – Cowboy Church would be right up his alley. But I will confess that it was not always up my alley. I was raised in the suburbs, and I live in the city today. But, like a lot of people of my generation, when I was a kid, I had “country cousins” and would often spend a few weeks on their farms each summer. I helped put myself through college working on a ranch in New Mexico, so I developed a deep appreciation for farm and ranch life. That also means that the idea of a “cowboy church” is not new to me. I have even been to a few outdoor “cowboy church” services. That said, I found this article from Houston Public Media on cowboy churches to be one of the best I've ever seen, and I commend it to you. Christina Warren, let's look at one more story before we go, and I'm almost reluctant to talk about it. Warren I am too. It's the story of the Duggar family. You may remember the Duggar Family, who became stars at too young an age because of their “19 and Counting” television series. The series has been off the year for five years, after a decade-long run, but the family's troubles continue. Christina Oldest son Josh Duggar is in prison for receiving and possessing child sexual abuse material. Warren Last week, Joseph Duggar was arrested for alleged sex crimes against a 9-year-old girl during a vacation in 2020. Duggar, a married father of four, was arrested on March 18 and charged with “Lewd and Lascivious Behavior, involving unlawful sexual activity with a minor.” Christina We have chosen mostly not to cover this tragic story here at MinistryWatch. Warren This short paragraph will likely be it for us. But I wanted to mention it just enough to make this point: We are not meant to be celebrities. This insight is not original to me, but it is worth reminding ourselves of from time to time. Christina Any final notes before we go? Warren I have some travel coming up in the next couple of months, and I would love to see you. I will be in Los Angeles in April and Nashville; Dallas, and Knoxville in May. I will be in Denver and Colorado Springs in June. I will be doing reader lunches in all these cities. Let me know if you would like to join us. My email is wsmith@ministrywatch.com. Christina The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. Join me and Warren again on Friday for our look at the news of the week from a MinistryWatch perspective. Until then, may God bless you.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Dr. Allen Holmes, Senior Pastor of Definition Church. Allen has served at Definition for 25 years, leading it from a congregation of 30 people to one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. But in this conversation, we don't start with strategy—we start with the soul. Allen shares how a personal marriage crisis early in ministry exposed deep character issues and launched him on a decades-long journey of spiritual formation that has shaped both his leadership and his church. Is it possible that the greatest lid on your ministry isn't your strategy—but your inner life? Allen challenges leaders to rethink success, crisis, and longevity through the lens of character formation. Pressure reveals who you really are. // Leadership rarely collapses because of incompetence—it collapses because pressure exposes unaddressed character issues. Early in seminary and marriage, Allen's wife told him she didn't love him and didn't want to remain in ministry. The crisis shattered his sense of calling and identity. Allen—by God's grace—was able to ask: What in me has produced this? That shift from defensiveness to humility marked the beginning of deep transformation. From gifted producer to formed leader. // Allen explains that many leaders are rewarded for production, not formation. A gifted communicator can build a crowd while remaining insecure, defensive, and relationally immature. You can be a great producer and a poor leader. True leadership requires learning to lead yourself. For Allen, that meant confronting independence, insecurity, and relational blind spots—issues rooted in his upbringing that were sabotaging both marriage and ministry. Prioritizing presence over performance. // The turning point in Allen's growth was deceptively simple: he began prioritizing his relationship with Jesus. Guided by a mentor, he learned to read Scripture for formation rather than information and to cultivate rhythms of prayer, worship, and dependence on the Holy Spirit. Ministry leaders face an occupational hazard—handling Scripture transactionally for sermons while neglecting personal communion with Christ. For Allen, consistent morning surrender became the foundation for long-term sustainability. Marriage as spiritual formation. // Allen describes marriage as God's primary classroom for sanctification. Drawing from the biblical metaphor of Christ and the Church, he explains how learning to live in the presence of his wife taught him how to live in the presence of God. Simple daily rhythms—morning prayer, consistent check-ins, shared meals, evening walks, praying together—have sustained their relationship for decades. Rather than competing with ministry, his marriage strengthens it. What God forms privately shapes what leaders produce publicly. Culture flows from character. // Over 25 years, Allen's commitment to personal formation has shaped Definition Church's culture. Every staff member has a “rule of life” and an intentional growth plan. Personal development is written into job descriptions as the number-one responsibility. Staff are given monthly retreat days to spend extended time alone with Jesus. Spiritual practices are embedded into the life of the church. Allen believes you reproduce who and what you are—so the greatest contribution a leader can make is becoming more like Christ. The power of staying. // Allen notes that lasting impact often requires long tenure. His senior leadership team has served together for decades, building trust and shared formation. In a skeptical culture, credibility grows through consistency. But longevity without formation is dangerous. The process prepares leaders for the purpose; bypassing the process risks collapse. Like Joseph's journey from entitlement to anointing in the Old Testament, leaders must pass through refining seasons before they can steward influence well. To learn more about Definition Church, explore their resources, and connect with Allen, visit definition.church. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Today’s going to be a really good conversation. It’s one of those conversations that I think we all need to have, looked carefully at, think about ourselves, think about the teams we lead. I really do think it’s one of those make or break kind of conversations. And so you’ll be rewarded for tuning in today. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dr. Allen Holmes with us. He’s a senior pastor of a church called Definition Church. He’s been there since 2000, so a few years. They’re located in North Carolina and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. They have a residency program as well that’s called to train and develop next generation of mission-minded ministry leaders. And believing that generosity is a privilege, Definition Church also partners with a number of other ministries, churches, and organizations to really serve their community. Dr. Allen, so glad you’re here. Thanks for being here today.Allen Holmes — Wow. Well, I’m so excited to be here, Rich, and appreciate the invitation.Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be a fun conversation. Why don’t you kind of fill out the picture?Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — Tell us a little bit about Definition. Kind of tell us the story. Give us a sense of the church.Allen Holmes — Well, my wife and I, we grew up down in Wilmington, which is on the coast of North Carolina. In 2000, we were finishing seminary and looking for a church, really looking for a city where we could plant our life and stay in one place kind of forever. And we were in a small town. Our first church was in a small town of about 1500. And Greensboro was one of the cities we visited, and there was a church here that had lost their pastor. They only had about 30 people.Allen Holmes — And the truth is that was safe and kind of gave us a a lot of freedom to make mistakes and learn and grow as leaders and as a man and a woman, as a married couple, as parents, you know, all the things without mistakes, really the pressure of a big church and a lot of expectations. And that was perfect for us. And and we fell in love with the city and it’s been 25 years now. It’s hard to believe that. And and but we love it here. Greensboro’s home now and and Definition’s been great to us.Rich Birch — So good. Well, I want to take advantage of the fact that you’ve been at your location, at your church for a number of years. When you look back over two and a half decades of ministry, and you know you’ve seen a lot of churches in your community, and then just even wider you know across the country, that sort of thing. Where have you seen leadership fall apart in churches? We’ll start with the negative to start.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — When’s it break down most often? Why does, you know, why do the wheels come off? Where have you seen that happen?Allen Holmes — You know, I think generally it’s just anything that creates pressure. So I think we have a tendency to train and prepare as leaders when there’s no pressure.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then all of a sudden we find ourselves in a situation where there’s a tremendous amount of pressure. And in those moments, it’s not what we know that matters, but who we are. Rich Birch — So true.Allen Holmes — It kind of gets it gets exposed. And this happened for me the first time I was in seminary. It was my second semester. My wife, Tina, and I had just gotten married. So we were five months into marriage. I was living my dream. I mean, seminary for, you know, somebody who wants to be a pastor is like Disney World, right? I mean, I’m in class every day studying the Bible, surrounded by all these people that love Jesus. I’ve got this vision for changing the world. I mean, it was just wonderful.Allen Holmes — And in month five, towards the end of that second semester, I came home and and my wife wasn’t doing well. I didn’t realize, you know, how bad it was. But that day I came home and she said, I don’t love you. Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And I don’t want to be married. I will never be in the ministry. I'm going home.Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And it’s like, all of a sudden, my whole world just began to fall apart. You know, at that stage of life, the only thing that really mattered to me was ministry. You know I had this call, this sense of calling. And my marriage.Allen Holmes — I really I grew up in a broken home, really didn’t have any family. And my wife and actually her family were family to me.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And so in that moment, it felt like I was losing everything that mattered. Rich Birch — Wow. Allen Holmes — And I realized that despite all of my gifts and my zeal and my passion and my good intentions, beneath the surface, I had all of this on all of these unaddressed issues from my life story that were now coming to the surface and creating a mess in my marriage. And that crisis, that pressure exposed those things and created an opportunity for me to learn and grow. And by God’s grace, we dropped out of seminary, we moved back home. And I met Dr. Bennett, who became a mentor to me. He was a retired pastor.Allen Holmes — And I just started this journey of instead of being focused on just what I do and what I could produce, which is all I knew up until that moment, to really asking some deeper questions about who am I? And what’s driving all of this behavior and what’s creating this problem in my marriage? And how do I invite Christ to really do a deeper work in my heart and life and character? And and I’ve been on that journey now for almost 30 years.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredibly compelling. One of my mentors, he talks about how he burnt out early and he had kind of, you know, ended up on the side of the road and, you know, in a really bad spot in life. And he says, he looks back on that and says, wow, by by God’s grace, that happened. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — You know, and, and wow, that, you know, his whole, it changed the whole trajectory of you know his life and he made a whole bunch of changes. And he feels really, in a weird sort of way, thankful for for that, if even though you’re thankful, it feels like a weird emotion to have around such a crisis you know in you know in your life. Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — Now, so many leaders, we’re so focused on the mission. We’re so focused on leading others. We’re so focused on pushing forward. We miss this stuff. There's there are these things bubbling under the surface. And and we haven’t had the grace of a wife who would raise her hand and say, hey, this enough is enough. Why do you think that gap is so common in ministry? Why is this just like a thing we see all the time?Allen Holmes — Well, I think to your point, in ministry, just like not just in ministry, but any organizational leadership, you’re rewarded and celebrated for what you produce. And the truth is that’s all most people can see. I mean, when my marriage blew up, if you would have gone around and interviewed my friends, my family, Tina’s family, my professors, if you would have asked anybody about me, they would have said, Allen's a rising star. He loves God. I mean, he he’s doing all the stuff. He’s checking all the boxes. This guy’s going to really be somebody one day.Allen Holmes — But what you couldn’t see is that beneath the surface, I didn’t know who I was. And I was insecure. I was defensive. I was independent. I really didn’t know how to do relationships well. I was insensitive.Allen Holmes — I didn’t have like a bad, ugly heart. I mean, I loved and cared about people. I just had all of these unaddressed, unfinished issues in my life. But my giftedness would allow me to produce despite that.Allen Holmes — You know, I think sometimes people um wonder why are leaders great at leading, but, you know, they struggle to lead themselves. I’m not sure that’s really a real thing. What leaders are good at doing is they’re great at producing. They’re not great at leading if they're not great at leading themselves. In other words, I can be a great producer and a bad leader.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — I can be great on stage and draw a crowd and kind of be a slave-driving leader. And it might, from a numbers perspective and people that aren’t close, they look at it and think, wow, this is wildly successful. But the people on the inner circle know better, that the culture is unhealthy and and this person’s, you know, shallow or he’s a tyrant or whatever the, you know, whatever the case might be.Allen Holmes — There’s all kinds of ways to build a crowd in American culture today that have very little to do with Jesus. And we’ve seen that over and over and over again. So I think in order to be a great leader, you have to be able and willing to lead yourself.Rich Birch — So what did that process look like for you the kind of internal journey of trying to name what your wife had or or define maybe what your wife had named to really get clarity on that? Maybe unpack that step a little bit first before we get on to what changed. You know, how how did you, what did that look like? How, what kind of space did you have to create? What, what, did where did that, what did that part of the journey take you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, when I look back on all this, I’m, you know, I’m just so grateful for God’s grace because I didn’t even understand the process I was in. I mean, you know, I was just in it and trying to navigate it. But by God’s grace, I decided to ask the question, what in my character has produced this in my marriage. And what’s really shocking about that is all of my seminary buddies were saying, what is wrong with your wife? Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And I, by God’s grace, was saying, what’s wrong with me?I had enough humility to look at my wife and go, you know, I married this woman because she was so full of grace and kind and gentle, this beautiful soul, this beautiful person. So if she’s reacting this way, chances are she’s not the problem. You know, sometimes.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Allen Holmes — Something about our relationship is producing that. And actually, so what it was is, my wife grew up in this really great, healthy family, parent, two-parent home, siblings, people in her house all the time. Her mom cooked every night. I ate at their house five nights a week. I mean, it’s like their family became my family.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Well, I grew up with none of that. I grew up with a single mom, basically all by myself, raising myself. And those two worlds just collided. So when we went seminary, I was doing school full-time and working full-time, and she was working full-time. And I thought, well, that was normal. That’s what I’d been doing for years and years. I’d worked my way through college. I’d been and on my own since I was 18.Allen Holmes — And so that seemed normal. But for Tina, it’s like she went from living in this beautiful community to being all by herself at seminary, and I’m not even there. Rich Birch — Right, right. Wow.Allen Holmes — And she’s and so she was relationally just dying, and I didn’t know how to be sensitive to that. You know, I wanted to just say, you know, get over it. Life’s hard…Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — …which would not have worked. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Allen Holmes — You know But I just had enough grace to begin asking, God, what are you trying to do in my heart? And and like you were saying earlier about your buddy, the thing I would say today, if I would have married a woman strong enough to tolerate that moment, I would have been I would have never survived in ministry because I would have been a driven, legalistic, judgmental, demanding kind of pastor that that really, I think, used the Bible to beat people up.Allen Holmes — And I mean, instead of being a man who really actually experienced, I guess, an inner this inner, deeper work and can invite people into something that is deeply spiritual and transformational and life-giving, you know, I would have just been this ugly, difficult pastor to be with. And so I’m so grateful. I mean, that that really began this journey that just changed and has literally touched everything about my life and ministry and our marriage today. I mean, it’s amazing.Rich Birch — Yeah. So what, what changed? What, how did you change your, you know, approach to making decisions, to dealing with the pressure, dealing with the pace? You know, obviously we were kind of at the point in the journey where you took a pause and made some changes, but eventually, you know, you ended up back on that path and back into ministry and have been leading and the ministry has been flourishing. So what were some of the, the kind of shifts that you made that were that, in hindsight seemed like that was, those were keystone decisions.Allen Holmes — Well, this sounds so silly to even say it, especially to Christian leaders, but I had to prioritize my relationship with Jesus.Rich Birch — Right, right.Allen Holmes — Well, there’s a good idea.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, exactly. Write that down. What did he say? No but that’s true, though. Lean in on that because you know that there are…Allen Holmes — Yes.Rich Birch — Listen, we all know we go, we all go through seasons where that our relationship goes colder. Some of us, we, you know, we just, it’s been like years, decades since we feel like we’ve had a thriving relationship. So lean in on that.Allen Holmes — Well, you know, it’s interesting when I when we moved back to Wilmington and I started spending time with Dr. Bennett, he just he just pressed me on that all the time. Give your mornings to Jesus. Give your mornings to Jesus. And I just began learning how do I develop a meaningful time with Jesus every day? How do I read the Bible for formation instead of information.Rich Birch — That’s good.Allen Holmes — And how, you know, how do I worship for formation? How do I what is my relationship to the Holy Spirit and inviting him into those moments to help me see and to understand, to teach and to heal and to counsel me into healing, wholeness, growth, all those things.Allen Holmes — You know, how do I press into community? You know, I was so independent. And the truth is, I mean, 30 years later, I’m still working on this.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I was so trained to be independent and I liked being independent. I wasn’t unhappy independent… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …but independence allows you to hold on to your immaturity because nobody’s challenging it.Rich Birch — Nobody’s in your business.Allen Holmes — Nobody’s confronted. That’s right. And so I just began really developing that time with Jesus and just fell in love with spending time with Jesus. And again, that that changed everything. And again, as silly as that sounds, I’ve been in so many groups. It’s kind of shocking how often I’m with pastors and they just say, I just, I don’t have time to read my Bible.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I don’t have time to worship. I can’t give 15 or 20 minutes in the mornings to the Lord. And it’s like, if that if that’s true, then something is just so out of order about our life and ministry. And we’ve not learned to juggle all of that. And because we’re not handling that well, so many pastors, they don’t finish in ministry. Rich Birch —Right.Allen Holmes — Ministry chews them up and spits them out. And so we have to make that the priority. So important. So important.Rich Birch — Yeah, I really appreciate that. I appreciate you leaning in on that. And this is an area where it’s an occupational hazard in what we’ve picked to do…Allen Holmes — Oh, yeah. That’s right.Rich Birch — …because our our job is to produce that in other people. And so we have to handle the scripture in in a way, you know, it’s like a part of what we do to produce the content we produce or whatever that is. And it can become very transactional if we don’t watch. And so I really appreciate you leaning in on that.Allen Holmes — That’s exactly right.Rich Birch — What about on the married side? What advice would you give? Again, you’ve, you’ve are happily married today and you know, all these years later.Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s right.Rich Birch — And, what, what rhythms have you found that have worked well for you and your wife, for you to continue to lead and to lead, you know, at a high level. The reason why we’re talking is because you’re leading a fast-growing church.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — But, you know, you’re doing that and keeping your marriage. What are some of the rhythms that you, that you help coach other, maybe younger leaders to, to really instill on that side, to, to, to be, to be whole on that side?Allen Holmes — One of the things that was so helpful early on is recognizing that my marriage was God’s gift to me to learn, not just to grow and to mature as a man, but even to learn to walk with God.Allen Holmes — And one of the things you see in Scripture over and over and over again is the primary metaphor God uses to describe our relationship with Him as a husband and a wife, that we’re the bride of Christ.Allen Holmes — And what I found is that my marriage and my relationship with Jesus were running in parallel. So if I learned something with Tina, it strengthened my relationship with Jesus. And when I would learn something with Jesus, it would actually strengthen my relationship with Tina, that they were you know playing off of each other that way.Allen Holmes — And so as Tina and I started working on our marriage, I mean, it was it was as simple like even when I think about giving my mornings to God. When I wake up every day, the first thing I do is I roll over on my knees. I acknowledge Jesus, you are my king, king of my heart and life.Allen Holmes — I invite the Holy Spirit to fill me fresh for that day. And I probably pray there three to five minutes, and then I roll over on my back and put my hand on my sleeping wife. And I just take a minute and begin praying and and blessing my wife.Allen Holmes — And then I’ll get up and I’ll I’ll kind of have of usually a couple hours where I can just be in the Word, I can worship, I can be in so have silence and solitude and just allow God to minister to my soul. And then i don’t ever leave the house without giving my wife a kiss, telling her I love her, embracing her.Allen Holmes — During the day, I’m going to check in two or three times. How’s your day going? What’s going on with you? You know, if I’m driving somewhere or between meetings, you know, little quick touches. Rich Birch — That's good.Allen Holmes — When I get home, I’m going to walk in the house. The first thing I’m going do is I’m going to find Tina. We’re going to eat dinner together that night. At the end of the day, we’re going to maybe go on a walk that night. We may get in bed and just both be reading a book for a little bit. We might talk about our day or what’s going on with our kids or life.Allen Holmes — Before we go to bed, before we go to sleep, we’ll pray together. And again, I want to make sure that I’m affirming my love for… When I describe all of that to people and what I try to tell them is have a response. The Christian life is learning to live in the presence of God. And marriage is learning to live in the presence of your wife.Allen Holmes — And so I know throughout the day what’s going on in the heart of my wife and how to love and serve her well, even when I’m here at work. And as a Christian, I’ve got to learn how do I live in the presence of God and recognize he’s always with me. And I want to bring Jesus into every moment, every meeting, every decision. And versus I have devotional time and I leave God at home. And then I come to work and do my work.Allen Holmes — So that’s just one example. As I learned how to do that with Tina, I saw how to apply to my relationship with God and vice versa.Rich Birch — That's so good. Yeah, that’s so helpful. Let’s talk about how your internal life and your own growth and your own staying close to him, what impact has that had on the church, on your team, on the people you lead? How do you see those two, you know, working together?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. So part of it is you reproduce who and what you are. Rich Birch — True. Allen Holmes — So what we’re describing, and of course, I’ve got 25 years of this, and so that gives me a little bit of an advantage in that regard because this takes time to build. You know, it doesn’t happen overnight. But when this has been kind of the direction of your life for over 25 years, then it becomes the direction of the organization and the people that you lead. And so on our on our church staff and our church and the way we do ministry, the way our we you know our mission is all affected by what we’re talking about.Allen Holmes — And so our staff, that you know, they all have a rule of life. They all have a very intentional plan a plan for their spiritual and personal and leadership growth in their life. And and we work as a team to to facilitate that. In fact, in our job descriptions, their number one responsibility is their personal growth and development. And we tell them all the time, the greatest thing you can do for everyone in your life is to learn and grow as a leader. That’s the greatest contribution you can make. When you do that, you everybody comes up. you You bless everybody. So work harder on who you are than what you’re building.Allen Holmes — And so we just emphasize that. And and then we do little things like, you know, in our in our church culture, we once a month, they have a retreat day where they’re required to go and be alone with Jesus for a whole day. And they’re being paid to do it. Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — It’s their, you know, it’s part of their job. We emphasize a spiritual practice every month, and we’re doing that in all of our groups, and we model that as a staff. Like in January, our spiritual practice is fasting, and we’re about to begin you know a season of prayer and fasting like a lot of churches do in January. And so that’s integrated into everything that we’re doing as a church and to our staff. They’re encouraged to do that, and so we’re just constantly making sure that they’re learning and growing. And then that begins to shape the culture your church. It shapes your ability to actually make disciples in your church. I mean, at the end of the day, if on a scale of 1 to 10, as a follower of Christ, if I’m a five, I can only lead three and fours… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …and I can only attract twos.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then there’s nobody that I can help, right?Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yes.Allen Holmes — Because I’m already at the bottom.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah.Allen Holmes — But if I can be an eight and lead sixes and sevens and attract four and fives, then we can reach down and help the two and threes get up, you know. So my what God is doing in me, and that’s true for everybody on our team, is the greatest contribution they can make, and it brings everybody up. And so that’s just really worked into our culture.Rich Birch — Think at like from a diagnostic point of view. A church calls you up and they feel stuck organizationally. They feel like, man, things are just, they’re not going well. When you take a call like that, is your reflex to go towards, well, where are things with the with the leadership team internally?Rich Birch — Or you know do we start organizationally? Hey, let’s fix a couple of things. Help us talk think Help us think through um how do you handle that kind of conversation? Or how does this conversation inform a conversation like that when it comes your way?Allen Holmes — That’s a great question. I mean, generally my response will be, I’ll tell people really, if you need organizational, just kind of practical, how do I do it information, I just give them some resources, you know, so I’ll send them, go to the Grow Conference. They’re probably the best in the world at it. Rich Birch — Yeah, they're so good.Allen Holmes — They can tell you how to do these different things. But then I want to come back to the thing I think we can help you with is really the soul of your organization, which is a reflection of what God’s doing in you. So let’s talk about who you are as a leader, the way you live your life, the way you lead your staff, the culture that you’re building and creating. Because ultimately, if you get all these systems, but you don’t have culture, culture trumps systems every single time.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And when you get the systems and the culture right, you begin, everybody’s attracted to that. In fact, I think maybe one of the big problems in Western culture, and this is hard to admit, but I think the church has to admit this, is that people, people are not going to church. Church attendance is on decline, but it’s not because people don’t want God. They’re just not convinced they can find him at church.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s so true. Yeah.Allen Holmes — I mean, they’re they’re spiritually hungry, but the cultures of our church, people come into that culture and what they kind of intuitively know is that this doesn’t feel healthy or spiritual. So you can create all the systems you want and send out flyers and do all kinds of things. But if people show up at your church and what they intuitively know is that this isn’t healthy and spiritual, you can’t grow your church. So you have to begin there.Allen Holmes —It’s also true if it is healthy and spiritual, even if your systems are a little suspect, people will tolerate a lot of a lot of that because they’re so spiritually hungry. And I think that’s more true than ever before.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very true. Yeah. Well, yeah, my good friend, Carey Nieuwhof, he says like, man, it would be so sad if people came to our churches and all they found was us, right? You know, at the end of the day, right? Like we were trying to point them to Jesus and as as kind of elementary as it sounds, but it’s just so true.Rich Birch — If there isn’t something happening there that’s bigger than just what they can get anywhere else, why would they come to us? Why would they engage in our churches? Yeah, that’s that’s…Allen Holmes — You know, we just came through Christmas, and and one of the things that I think Protestants miss is is when we think about Christmas, we think about Emmanuel, God with us. We think about the incarnation, God became flesh, and we think that’s something that happened 2,000 years ago. And the truth is, that’s supposed to be true of the church today. We are the body of Christ.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — God in us. And when that’s true, people, when they show up at our churches or show up at our dinner table, they should experience Jesus when they’re with us because we’re becoming more and more like him.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, it’s good.Allen Holmes — And then our life gives validity to our message.Rich Birch — Well, one of the things I’m working on a book for for churches about breaking the 2,000 barrier. And one of the interesting stats that we’ve bumped into is that oftentimes the, when a church breaks the 2,000 barrier, the senior leader and often the senior leadership team have been there for going on two decades, 18 years, 19 years, 22 years. Like it’s just a really common pattern you see.Rich Birch — Now that’s not the perception. Our perception is like, oh, there’s like the just add water mega fast church that just explodes and it all happens. But that actually isn’t the normative pattern. the Normative pattern is it’s it takes a long time. You’ve been at your church for 25 years. Talk us through how longevity, how does that tie into this conversation? How does it tie into the impact you’re seeing, you know, at Definition? Talk us through that.Allen Holmes — Yeah. You know, it’s interesting when I, one of the other real key moments for me is I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon-Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis, in these pressure moments to, you know, expose the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world.Allen Holmes — And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It’s a simple little book, but profound, where he describes leadership development in five stages. And stage one is is a skilled leader where you get a leadership role just based on your skill. So maybe the ability to preach. And so they call you to be the pastor. That’s how I became the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn’t done anything else. But they let me be a pastor because I can preach.Allen Holmes — And then the second stage is a principal leader where you begin to understand why you do what you do. But the third stage, which is so important, is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a choice.Allen Holmes — In that stage, he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work, or he can go back and hide behind his skills and principle. And that’s what pastors do a lot of times. The reason you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this honeymoon season, and then all of a sudden there’s a crisis that exposes some things, and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their skill, rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can advance and become a transformative, redemptive leader. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — So I think one of the things that’s been so true for us is we’ve just tried to say to people, when there’s a crisis, don’t panic, don’t run away, see it as an opportunity.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — In fact, I ended up doing my dissertation on the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders, that it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis. Instead of running from it, they would run to it and open their heart, and God could use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the research said that was true.Allen Holmes — And so we’ve tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something goes wrong, don’t run away and don’t hide.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Let’s run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing, God works redemptively to use it for your benefit and to launch you into your future. And because that’s been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick has been here 25 years. He’s actually here two Sundays longer than I’ve been here. Rich Birch — Love it.Allen Holmes — Eric’s been here 24 years. Jonathan’s been here 19 years. Steve’s been Chelsea’s been here almost this year will be 14 years. Steve’s been here 10 years. I mean, so they’ve just been here a long, long, long time, and that but that’s why, is that they’ve seen these moments and we’ve helped them to find God in it so that actually works for us instead of against us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s great. I love that. You know, I think if more churches, if more leaders had the mindset, even as we led our people that like, hey, if they come to us and it feels like there’s a crisis brewing here, I do feel like our culture is so bent towards like, it’s not just them leaving, it’s us leaving them. It’s like, okay, time’s up, you’re done, like move on. We would never say it that way because we’re better Christians and we know, but but that’s the vibe we give people.Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — And And I do think it’s been interesting as we’ve been looking really from a church growth point of view, this is a really sticky trend that we see that it’s like you, the key leaders have to be here for a long time. And it makes sense on lots of levels. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — This level, it makes sense. It makes sense on just like community influence. Like you you have to be around for a long time. People are super suspicious of the church and they’re not You know, they don’t come like that maybe 30 years ago, people trusted the church. Well, that’s just not true anymore. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — And so when you’re around for a long time that, you know, that makes a difference. And it’s hard to, it’s not like a really pithy bullet point because it’s like, well, just stick around. But it is, it’s critically important to the, you know, to the overall mix.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, that make that reminds me of a couple of things. One, one of the, think, things we have to be careful about today is I think we are doing such a good job of planting churches. We’re all for church planting. We just help the church in our city plant. We’re about to launch somebody out next year to plant under the church. I mean, that’s a fantastic thing, but we’ve gotten so good at it.Allen Holmes — If you’re a 30-year-old and you plant a church and you start with 500 on day one, it could be detrimental to your spiritual journey. And we just have to kind of recognize that.Rich Birch — Talk more about that. Why would that be?Allen Holmes — Well, like when I think about myself, when I came to Definition, we had about 30 people, and we did not average 100 for an entire year until my seventh year here.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — Now, during those seven years, I thought it was the greatest church in America. I mean, we were having a good time, and we were basically a college ministry more than a church back then. When I came, we had an older congregation, but my first Sunday, 15 college students showed up.Rich Birch — Okay.Allen Holmes — And, of course, I was only 26, and so I naturally gravitated towards them. We kind of became this college ministry, and it wasn’t until several years later that they were old enough to get married and start having babies that we actually became a real church. And, uh, but during that time, the truth is God, I just believe God was in that because I was still so young and inexperienced and immature as a man and leader that the last thing I needed was any more success.Allen Holmes — It would have really, success can really blind you to your areas of, you know, where you need really need to grow. In fact, one of the things that you see in several places in Scripture, and one of the things that we tell our church all that time, that the Christian life is a lifelong, transformational journey with Christ. Rich Birch — Yep.Allen Holmes — And you see this in several places in Scripture. Let me give you a couple examples. You think about Joseph. I don’t if you’ve ever thought about this story, but I was preaching on it a couple of years ago, and I realized in this story, there are three times that Joseph has a coat. His first coat as a child is a coat of entitlement, and it needs to be ripped off.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — His next coat was given by Pharaoh. It’s a coat of self-sufficiency. It needs to be ripped off, and Potiphar’s wife took it off. And then third, there’s a coat of anointing where he’s come through this crucible. He’s come through these seasons of pain and struggle and wrestling and and suffering that has produced this character. And now God can elevate him and give him almost unlimited power and authority without the threat of him abusing it.Allen Holmes — Well, without that process, God could never. If God puts any man in that position without that process, it destroys you. I mean, you you’re not prepared. You can’t handle that. You know, tell people all the time that one of the reasons God doesn’t just tell us our future, you know, people are always wanting to know, you know, what’s God going to do?Allen Holmes — And the truth is, if God told us what we were going to be doing in 10 years, we’d try to go there tomorrow. And the process prepares us for our purpose. You cannot bypass the process… Rich Birch — That’s good. Allen Holmes — …and still fulfill your purpose.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — And so God works in that that challenge. I think about Psalm 23, and I think Psalm 23 describes three stages. First stage is that I’m this child. I’m very young and immature in my faith. And then I become this warrior. And then I eventually become friend. But I have to go through the valley of the shadow of death to get up that mountain in order to be a friend of God. Allen Holmes — And there’s no way to bypass that. it’s seeing you You see this over and over and over again in scripture. And it’s just part of our sanctification. It’s the way God works in our lives.Rich Birch — It’s so good.Allen Holmes — Now, one of the things that sometimes somebody might hear all this and they go, well, I know so-and-so. I’ll give you a great example, classic example of this. Chris Hodges is one of the most respected pastors in America.Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.Allen Holmes — And he he has pastored one of the fastest growing churches in in America. But there is a reason he has been so fruitful. And the reason is before he ever became a pastor, he didn’t start that church until he was 40.Allen Holmes — And before becoming that pastor, he’d served under two of the best pastors and two of the strongest churches in America. So he was so much more mature than the average church planter when he started. And I’m 53, I don’t think I’m where Chris was at 40 when he started that church.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — So that was a big advantage in why they’ve been able to be so consistently fruitful for such a long period of time. And we just have to recognize that. And again, that’s why it’s so important that we’re focused on what God is doing in us… Rich Birch — So good. Allen Holmes — …because over time, that’s what produces the best results. It’s just a mature man or woman of God.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Love it. Well, Allen, thank you so much for today’s conversation. This has been a great, it’s been really rich conversation. There’s a lot more we could we could talk about, but I really appreciate you giving us the time today. As we wrap up today’s episode, what any kind of final words you’d give to a leader, as they’re thinking about reflecting on this kind of inner life, leading themselves, you know, trying to align who they are outside with who they are inside. Help us Help us with the kind of final word as we kind of wrap up today’s call.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, I was reading a book recently, and and this quote, I’ve just been meditating on it the last couple of weeks, and it the quote is, God loves us as we are, not as we should be, for none of us are as we should be.Rich Birch — It’s good. Oh wow that's good.Allen Holmes — And I say that just to say I think so many pastors are trying so hard like the older brother in the prodigal story. They’re trying so hard to work for God and to prove something. And I just think we got to begin with falling in love with him and trust he’s better at producing than we are. And if we just fall in love with Jesus and allow him to make us more like that father, his kids will come running home.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — because they’re looking for fathers. They’re they’re looking for that place of grace and life and hope. And so that characterizes who we are in our soul. And people are just so attracted to that. So I would just say to all the pastors and leaders listening, God is crazy about you. You can’t do anything about that. You don’t have to earn it and none of us deserve it. And if we can learn to really receive that and fall in love with Jesus again, it just changes everything.Rich Birch — So good. Well, sir, I appreciate you being on today’s episode. If people want, if we want to send people online somewhere to track with you or with definition, where do we want to send them so they they could connect with you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, they can just Google Definition Church. And I do have a website. There’s not much on it yet. There’s probably not anything there that’s going to help them. But I need to do a better job of developing some content and getting it out there. But the best place to look would be just to go to our website. There are some resources there for churches.Rich Birch — That’s great.Allen Holmes — And of course, you know, we’d love to hear from them. And we really appreciate you just letting us, inviting us to be on the show today and to get to encourage leaders is such a such a privilege.Rich Birch — No, I appreciate you. I just want to honor you. You know, publicly. We reach out to churches like this, frankly, because you end up on the fastest growing church list. And we’re like, hey, what’s God using? And I love where this conversation went today. I think super helpful for people. So thanks so much, Allen. Appreciate being on today.Allen Holmes — Thanks, Rich. Have a great day.

ChatGPT can generate a sermon manuscript faster than you can brew your morning coffee. But should it?In this episode of the Church Tech Today Podcast, host Kenny Jahng breaks down Carey Nieuwhof's recent message on the ethics of AI in ministry, and the 4 dangers every pastor needs to hear before letting algorithms into the pulpit.From stunted spiritual formation to a subtle form of plagiarism, Nieuwhof argues that bypassing the hard work of sermon prep doesn't just shortchange your congregation—it shortchanges you.In this episode:Why the grind of sermon prep is a feature, not a bugThe “unwritten contract” you might be breaking with your churchHow AI-generated content loses authentic resonanceThe long-term cost to your authority as a teacherCarey isn't anti-tech, but he is pro-human.And this conversation is one every pastor using AI needs to have. Watch Nieuwhof's full video and read more at ChurchTechToday.com: https://churchtechtoday.com/4-warnings-about-ai-carey-nieuwhof-makes-to-preachers/

In this episode, Hannah Augustine interviews leadership coach and pastor James Duvall to explore the essential skills of self-leadership, time management, and personal growth. Whether you're volunteering, bi-vocational, or part of a larger team, you'll gain actionable insights to develop your KidMin capacity and impact.Use promo code KIDZMATTER at thegoodbook.com for 30% off on It's Good to Be a Boy and It's Good to Be a Girl. For personalized coaching, email hannah@kidzmatter.com. Connect with James and Lisa Duvall at artofspousing.com. You can read At Your Best by Carey Nieuwhof wherever books are sold.

In this episode of Leaders in Living Rooms, Sean Morgan sits down with Carey Nieuwhof to unpack one of the most significant moments facing the Church today: a rising Gen Z openness to faith paired with a looming leadership and succession crisis. Drawing from recent data, lived experience, and decades of leadership development, Carey challenges older generations to release authority sooner, create real opportunities for younger leaders, and rethink how leadership is developed—not just trained. The conversation also tackles under-discussed trends, including the quiet disengagement of women from church life, the creator economy's impact on ministry, and what it truly means to build organizations that grow beyond their founders. Welcome to Episode 152 of the Leaders in Living Rooms Podcast with Sean Morgan.

Why can't leaders win anymore? No matter what you say, someone's upset. In this conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, host of one of today's most influential leadership podcasts, we unpack why 49 hours a week on our phones has created 100 different experiences in a room of 100 people. From the woman who won't use plastic cutlery to why your weird uncle believes conspiracy theories, we explore how discipleship by algorithm is fragmenting society. We also talk about the false immediacy of social media, why high performers have the strongest inner critics, the Mount Rushmore of books we recommend, and what it takes to build relationships with people you admire without jumping levels of intimacy. Plus, Carey shares why the work is the reward, how he retaught himself to read books, and why he's pursuing mastery in his 60s. If you're a leader trying to navigate this fragmented world, this conversation is for you.The Art Of Leadership AcademyIn This Episode:Grab your very own Soundtracks: The Conversations Card DeckMake sure to follow me on Instagram and share with your friends!Keep up with my book list on GoodReads!Sign up for my newsletter, Try This!Book me to speak at your event or to your team!You can grab a copy of my book All It Takes Is a Goal from your favorite bookstore or at my website!Sign up for the Remarkable You Community today!Sign up for the Remarkable You Community today!

Apply to Join Churchfront Premium Apply to Join Churchfront Pro Free Worship and Production Toolkit Shop Our Online Courses Join us at the Churchfront Conference Follow Churchfront on Instagram or TikTok: @churchfront Follow on Twitter: @realchurchfront Gear we use to make videos at Churchfront Musicbed SyncID: MB01VWQ69XRQNSN   Carey Nieuwhof Interview - Podcast Notes Overview Conversation with Carey Nieuwhof about the shift in modern church worship from entertainment-focused to encounter-focused experiences, live streaming strategy, and church growth in the digital age. Key Themes 1. The Shift: Entertainment vs. Encounter The Problem with Modern Church Production Social media created a "copycat phase" where churches could suddenly see what megachurches were doing Churches adopted same equipment, same songs, same production values What was unique became ubiquitous - "we all became copies of each other" Gen Z is "the most marketed to generation in human history" and numb to production Quote: "Gen Z is the most marketed to generation in human history. And we're all kind of numb to the production. I don't think people are looking for hype. They're looking for hope." What People Actually Want Something real and tangible An experience of God, not just information about God Presence, not just presentation Transformation over information The Internet's Limitation Really good at delivering information (especially with AI) Cannot facilitate an encounter "There's something that happens in the room that doesn't happen online" 2. What "Encounter Over Entertainment" Looks Like The Tonal Shift Worship leaders being more sensitive to what's happening in the room, not just rehearsed transitions Preachers leaving space, not just hitting time marks Paying attention to what God might be doing (people crying, leaning in, visible reactions) Creating space to breathe Silence and Space "When I started in ministry, my goal was to get rid of as much silence in church as I could" Now: "Where else are you going to get silence? You don't get it unless you're in church" Don't have to fill every moment with words Can be silent or "noodle" on instruments while creating space Quote: "People's lives are so noisy and so crowded. I mean, we don't even sleep without white noise machines or anything like that. So where else are you going to get silence?" Evoke vs. Manipulate Can't plan a revival - it happens or it doesn't Job is to "set the table" and make space for the Holy Spirit Example: Great movies evoke genuine tears by accessing real emotions Cheap manipulation feels different Quote: "It's not our job as Christians to manipulate. It's our job possibly to evoke, to say, 'I'm going to set the table. I can't control the Holy Spirit.'" 3. The Liturgy Issue Modern Church is "Liturgically Malnourished" Liturgy = order of service (not an outdated term) Modern church handles joy and praise well Missing: contemplation, confession, lamentation, reflection Lost practices: prayers of confession, prayers of the people Carey's Confession Presbyterian background included prayers of approach and confession As church became attractional, prayer became "just an opportunity to clear the set for the sermon" Regrets thin prayers: "God, it's so good to be here today. We thank you so much. Amen." Quote: "It's like confess your sins to one another and you will be healed. We don't do that anymore. What if we did that?" Not Either/Or, But Both/And Keep good lighting, sound, production, and musicians who can play Add breathing room, texture, color, tone, mood Use liturgical calendar and historic practices adapted to modern context Don't approach Sunday as "slots to fill" Creative Freedom 52 Sundays = 52 blank canvases Already do this well at Easter and Christmas Can be more creative without confusing people Example: Good Friday Service Ended in darkness with no announcement Faded to black and stayed there People sat in uncomfortable silence, then slowly left "I wanted them to feel that discomfort... if you can even get a small sampling of that" Easter Sunday picked up in darkness, then sunrise/resurrection 4. Live Streaming Strategy Who Should Live Stream? Not every church needs to live stream everything Need good musicians to sound great online (around 400-500 attendance to have talent base) Need separate mix for online vs. in-house Poor production = "school play" - only interesting to those directly involved Quote: "A lot of churches, and these are well-meaning, beautiful Christian people. If you don't have the talent in production or in worship, you sound like a school play." Alternatives Stream just the message On-demand after, mixed in post-production Audio only if video isn't good Consider what strangers stumbling on feed would think The Discovery Argument Pre-COVID minority of churches streamed Now "everybody you want to reach is online" "All of non-Christian America, all the nuns, all the duns, all the atheists, all the agnostics, they're on the internet" Can't remember last time truly unchurched person hadn't watched online for weeks/months before visiting The New Foyer Online is now the foyer, not the physical lobby People investigate online before visiting By the time they show up, they're ready to go "further, faster" "They've already done their investigating. They've already asked ChatGPT all the questions" 5. Practical Service Design Handling Growth Pressure Multiple services create pressure to program everything tightly Solution: Trim 5 minutes from sermon Do 60-minute service with breathing room between Create more lobby/connection space Leverage outdoor space (if climate allows) Worship Set Strategy Don't need extended mix of everything Maybe two songs and a tag instead of three full songs "Sit in the tag for a while" Find the high-impact moments (example: bridge of "How Great Is Our God") Get to what matters, like talent shows do 90-second versions Quote: "You don't have to do the extended mix of everything, the seven minute version, do the tag. That would be great. Space is something that you can do in three minutes if you know how to do it well." Service Flow Examples Don't make people stand and greet (where else does that happen?) Have emotionally intelligent people on doors, not just available people Greet people the way THEY want to be greeted Consider kids moments, announcements, communion as natural transitions Call to commitment/involvement comes sooner now than 10 years ago 6. Online Presence Best Practices Website Design Design for new people first Show service times and location prominently (mobile friendly) Staff page is #3 most viewed - people want to see "are there people like me?" Use accurate photos (don't show 27-year-olds if congregation is 70+) Show actual diversity if you have it Quote (Seth Godin): "Culture is people like us do things like this. So what people are looking for, are there people like us?" Content Strategy Lead with best sermons, not just latest Most popular videos should be easy to find People don't care if it's from 2 years ago (still watching The Office) Have robust FAQ section for unchurched questions Position yourself for lost people, not just members 7. The Current Moment The Harvest is Ripe People are seeking more than maybe in past decade or two Culture is saturated with production - not the competitive edge anymore Mental health crisis caused by social media People desperate for something real What to Do Pray for it (spiritual activity) Make newcomer journey easy Take them somewhere when they show up Go deeper faster - they're ready Quote: "People come to church looking to find God, but sometimes all they find is us. They found a really cool song, they found a really great message, but they didn't actually find God in the midst of it." Give Them Meat Reference to Tara-Lee Cobble and The Bible Recap Provide historical context (helps Christians AND non-Christians) Don't be afraid to go deep on sin, gospel, redemption Write/speak in accessible "street Greek" like the New Testament Example Opening: "Hey, we're going back 3000 years. And there was a guy named David who was King of Israel. He was trying to keep the kingdom united because there was a north and a south. You can relate to that. These are divided times..." Quote (Tim Keller): "It's worse than you can possibly imagine and better than you can possibly dream." 8. Leadership Advice For Young Church Staff (25-40) Navigating Frustration with Leadership Write down actual issues you're facing (budget, staffing, expertise) Present respectfully, thoughtfully, submissively Good leaders will either provide resources or adjust priorities Identifying Toxic Culture Unrealistic expectations Unsympathetic to staff needs Expects 60-hour weeks with no life Toxic leader will get mad/defensive when approached Options in Toxic Environment Respectfully approach and share difficulties Accept the glass ceiling and stay Build healthy team within unhealthy body (temporary solution) Leave - "unhealthy bodies drive out healthy cells" Interview Questions for New Positions Ask to talk to current staff (not the pastor) Ask to talk to FORMER staff Find out who left and why Read Google reviews Have meals/experiences together (reveals character under pressure) Quote: "Ask around, ask if you have permission. Don't ask the pastor. Don't ask the pastor. Are you healthy? The toxic people, 'I'm so healthy.'" 9. Team Building & Growth Hiring Philosophy Only hire A players C players: you know immediately (late, unmotivated, incomplete work) - should be gone B players: good but not great - "it's too bad but we'll survive" A players: if they quit you'd need 3 people to replace them Quote (Netflix): "Adequate performance gets you a generous severance package." A Player Test If they knocked on the door saying "this is my last day," how do you react? C player: "Thank goodness, now I don't have to fire them" B player: "Too bad but we'll survive" A player: "Grabbing the waste basket and throwing up" Growth Wisdom Don't settle on staff because you're panicking Will eventually become bloated with no profit Profit = "permission to do this again tomorrow" (Seth Godin) Most businesses fail not from lack of vision but lack of cash Use tools like Working Genius to find right fit Don't just find A players - find A players with gifts your team needs Cultural Values Write them down and review regularly Ritz-Carlton: 26 values, reviewed 2-3 daily in team meetings Use to evaluate: "Where are we winning/losing with our values?" Catch team members exemplifying values Values help instill culture as org chart grows 10. Upcoming Projects Carey's New Book Topic: AI and the Future Church Thesis: "As the world becomes more artificial, we need to become more human as Christians" Church's future direction is human connection Expected publication: 2026 Latest Book "At Your Best" - about time, energy, and priorities Notable Statistics & Data Points 72% of teenagers have tried AI chatbots 31% prefer AI companionship to human companions Pre-COVID: minority of churches streamed services Can't recall single unchurched person who didn't watch online for weeks/months before visiting Around 400-500 attendance: churches start having talent base for good production 80-95% of church growth in America is conversion growth (not transfer) Top 3 website pages: Homepage, Messages, Staff/About Production Quality Basics Good Enough to Stream Great singing (doesn't need to be phenomenal) Decent lights Pretty good mix Can work with church of 150-200 with good coaching Everything else can be helped with technology Bare Minimum Great guitarist + great vocalist = "off to the races" Don't feel pressure to have full mediocre band Add musicians as you find/afford great ones Practical Takeaways Create space in services - silence, breathing room, sensitivity to the room Recover lost liturgical practices - confession, lamentation, contemplation Go deeper faster - people are ready for meat, not just milk Design for online discovery - unchurched people are investigating you Lead with best content - not just latest content Only hire A players - don't panic hire when growing Build real human connection - counter to increasingly artificial world Make newcomer journey easy - they're ready to engage quickly Be creative with 52 Sundays - not just slots to fill Focus on encounter over entertainment - production supports experience, doesn't replace it Questions for Further Reflection How can we create more space for confession in our services? What would it look like to "evoke" rather than "manipulate" in worship? Are we positioning our online presence for unchurched discovery? Is our production supporting encounter or replacing it? What emotions are people carrying into our services, and how do we acknowledge that? Are we moving too fast for the Holy Spirit to work? Memorable Quotes "I don't think people are looking for hype. They're looking for hope." "People aren't looking for more information. They're looking for presence, not just presentation." "The internet is really good at information, especially with AI. You want to know anything, you can find out anything, but the internet can't really facilitate an encounter." "It's not our job as Christians to manipulate. It's our job possibly to evoke." "Where else are you going to get silence? You don't get it unless you're in church." "If you don't have the talent in production or in worship, you sound like a school play." "Everybody you want to reach is online." "Your foyer has moved online." "People come to church looking to find God, but sometimes all they find is us." "As the world becomes more artificial, we need to become more human as Christians." "Adequate performance gets you a generous severance package." "Profit is permission to do this again tomorrow."

Where is student ministry going in the future? What are the trends we need to be paying attention to in our churches, and what should we be doing with the research we're seeing? On this episode of Student Ministry Connection, we're kicking off 2026 focusing on the future of student ministry and how God might just be setting us up for something big.   Links referenced in this episode:  Listen to or watch Carey Nieuwhof's episode on 2026 church trends at https://careynieuwhof.com/episode777  Read Carey's report at http://2026churchtrends.com  Learn more about Steve's ministry with NNYM at https://nnym.org/stevecullum  Sign up to get Steve's newsletter at https://bit.ly/cullumnewsletter  Support the ministry by giving online at https://bit.ly/cullumsupport  Contact Steve about partnerships, speaking, coaching, or consulting at https://bit.ly/cullumcontact  Follow Student Ministry Connection on Instagram: https://instagram.com/studentministryconnection  Read Steve's blog at https://stevecullum.com  Follow Steve on Twitter: https://twitter.com/stevecullum  Follow Steve on Instagram: https://instagram.com/stevecullum  Follow Steve on Facebook: https://facebook.com/stevecullum    Be sure to join us in prayer for revival every Wednesday at 11am PT, 12pm MT, 1pm CT, 2pm ET.    Find your next speaker at The Speaker Hub - https://youthminhub.com/speakerhub    Get a copy of the Cards Christians Like card game by using the link https://bit.ly/cardschristianslike and also support Student Ministry Connection.    Note: Some of the links above are affiliate links. By clicking them, Steve may receive commission to support this ministry.    Subscribe on your favorite podcast app. Links to the more popular ones are at https://linktr.ee/studentministryconnection     If you like what you hear, be sure to like, subscribe, share, and comment! Thanks, be sure to get connected, and may God bless your ministry!    

Carey Nieuwhof unveils 7 disruptive church trends to track in 2026. The trends include Gen Z leading a surge in young church attendance and a rise in women exiting the Christian faith. Plus, Carey discusses discipleship by algorithm and why that makes it impossible to lead people with harmony.

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Are you living at your best—or simply getting by? For many believers, chronic exhaustion has become a quiet norm. Yet Scripture reminds us that burnout isn't a badge of honor. It's a warning light. When life feels out of balance, it may be a sign we're pushing beyond the limits God lovingly designed for our good.Today, we sat down with Carey Nieuwhof—pastor, bestselling author of At Your Best: How to Get Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor, leadership expert, and host of the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast, as well as the founding pastor of Connexus Church—to talk about how Christians can pursue biblical rest and renewed purpose. Carey's insights come not from theory, but from the deepest valley of personal experience.When Success Masks ExhaustionCarey's story began two decades ago, during a season of explosive ministry growth. His church was thriving, opportunities were multiplying, and by every outward measure, life was “on top.” But amid this success, his inner world was collapsing.After returning from a high-profile speaking event, Carey hit a wall:“It was like I fell off a cliff. I lost motivation, passion, and energy. I met all the symptoms of clinical depression. My body declared a finish line I had refused to acknowledge.”People around him saw the signs. He didn't. And that's often the story behind burnout—others notice the warning lights long before we do.Carey describes burnout as “the gap between what you're capable of and what you're carrying.” Early in ministry, he assumed that increasing responsibility meant increasing hours. It was an unsustainable equation.Yet today, two decades later, he leads a much larger platform with far more influence—without living exhausted. Why? Because he restructured his life around a biblical rhythm of rest, limits, and intentional focus.Managing Energy, Not Just TimeMany Christians feel that better time management will fix their overload. But as Carey points out, time is a fixed asset—everyone gets the same 24 hours. Energy, however, rises and falls.Every person has what Carey calls a “green zone”—a few hours each day when they are at their best mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. For him, it's morning. For others, it might be midday or evening.His challenge is simple: Do what you're best at when you're at your best.When he writes in his green zone, he gets exponential results. When he tries the same work in his “red zone,” productivity crashes. This principle applies to everyone—from CEOs to parents, pastors, and business owners.Stewarding energy also requires boundaries. That means saying no—not out of selfishness, but out of faithfulness.Carey explains:Saying yes to every request eventually forces you to say no to the people who matter most.Delegation is a spiritual discipline.Some opportunities, even good ones, don't align with God's call in a particular season.By categorizing his decisions—like eliminating breakfast meetings that compete with his green zone—Carey reclaimed the margin he had been missing for years.Rest Is Not a Reward—It's DesignFor many Christians, rest feels like something we “earn” after working ourselves to the edge. But biblically, rest is part of our calling.Carey describes Sabbath not just as rehab after exhaustion, but prehab—something that prepares and strengthens us for faithful work. He points to the way elite athletes build rhythms of sleep, diet, and intentional recovery before they step onto the court.Even God modeled this for us—delighting in His creation and resting not from exhaustion but from joyful completeness.For Carey, the principles of rest and margin extend well beyond the calendar.A free Saturday protects family time. A healthy emergency fund protects the home from crisis. Limits are not restrictions—they are blessings that allow us to flourish.Margin creates room to love well, give freely, and listen to God's direction.Living at Your BestCarey's journey from burnout to renewal is a grace-filled reminder: God never asked us to outrun His design.He calls us to work diligently, rest faithfully, and live within the good limits He created for our flourishing. Carey's whole story—and the principles he teaches in his book At Your Best—offer a roadmap for anyone seeking balance, health, and spiritual renewal.For more wisdom from Carey Nieuwhof, explore his book At Your Best and visit the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. And if you're an advisor, he'll be joining us at Redeeming Money, our conference for financial professionals, in February.May you learn to live—not at your limit—but at your best, in the freedom and rest God provides.On Today's Program, Rob Answers Listener Questions:Can you explain the pros and cons of taking Social Security at 62 versus waiting until full retirement age? By 62, I'll be mostly debt-free, and since longevity doesn't run in my family, I'm wondering if it makes sense to claim early while my quality of life is higher and still work within the income limits.When should someone update their will? I'm 58, debt-free, still working, and have a solid 401(k). Should I consider setting up a trust, and how do I know when that becomes the wise choice, especially since it costs more?Resources Mentioned:Faithful Steward: FaithFi's Quarterly Magazine (Become a FaithFi Partner)At Your Best: How to Get Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor by Carey NieuwhofDidn't See It Coming: Overcoming the Seven Greatest Challenges That No One Expects and Everyone Experiences by Carey NieuwhofThe Carey Nieuwhof Leadership PodcastRedeeming Money 2026: A Kingdom Advisors ConferenceWisdom Over Wealth: 12 Lessons from Ecclesiastes on MoneyLook At The Sparrows: A 21-Day Devotional on Financial Fear and AnxietyRich Toward God: A Study on the Parable of the Rich FoolFind a Certified Kingdom Advisor (CKA)FaithFi App Remember, you can call in to ask your questions every workday at (800) 525-7000. Faith & Finance is also available on Moody Radio Network and American Family Radio. You can also visit FaithFi.com to connect with our online community and partner with us as we help more people live as faithful stewards of God's resources. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Leadership, especially in ministry, can be lonely.  In this conversation, I got to sit down in person with pastor, bestselling author, and leadership expert, Carey Nieuwhof. We were surrounded by a room full of pastors and ministry leaders to talk about what it really looks like to lead well without losing your soul. We talk about the difference between real friendships and deal friendships, how to spot false intimacy, and why real connection matters more than ever. At the end, you'll also hear some honest questions from the room. The kind every leader wrestles with but rarely says out loud. It's a real, hope-filled conversation for anyone who leads, loves the church, or just wants to follow Jesus well between your Sundays.  Subscribe to The Conversation on YouTube and watch the full interview with Carey: youtube.com/@adamaweber  Sign up for The Crew: adamweber.com/thecrew     Thanks to our amazing partners on this episode:  First Interstate Bank has a mission to help people and their money work better together. They do this by ensuring clients can manage their money conveniently wherever they are while also providing the friendly service. They have over 300 locations throughout 14 states! For more information and to find a location near you, visit firstinterstatebank.com Vern Eide Motorcars is a growing employee-owned company that offers sales, service, and financing of automotive, motorcycle, and power sports lines, including Acura, Ford, Chevy, GMC, Honda, Hyundai and Mitsubishi brands. Whether you live locally or across the country, visit verneide.com      

It's no secret that leaders are often tasked with the challenge of leading people and organizations with unhealthy cultures. Drawing from years of pastoral and organizational experience, Carey Nieuwhof shares his theologically driven insights on how leaders can cultivate healthy leadership in unhealthy cultures. Resources: You may also like https Uncovering What Drives You by Mike Foster Create a free THINQ Account and download the THINQ Media app on your smart TV to access more trusted content like this on topics from all channels of culture at thinqmedia.com. Apply the THINQ Framework as you think through cultural topics. Attend THINQ events where you can gather with like-minded leaders, ask better questions and have conversations that lead to wisdom: Unlock the THINQ Summit 2025 All-Access Pass before it's released to the public Host a THINQ Family conversation series in your home:  Let's Talk Civility Let's Talk Relationships Let's Talk Mental Health Let's Talk Tech Detox More from the THINQ Podcast Network: Rhythms for Life with Rebekah and Gabe Lyons The InFormed Parent with Suzanne Phillips NextUp with Grant Skeldon NeuroFaith with Curt Thompson UnderCurrent with Gabe Lyons Now on YouTube! Subscribe, Like and Share: THINQ Media UnderCurrent with Gabe Lyons NextUp with Grant Skeldon Rhythms for Life with Rebekah and Gabe Lyons The InFormed Parent with Suzanne Phillips

In this episode, Chestly Lunday sits down with Carey Nieuwhof — pastor, author, and host of The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast — to talk about how churches and leaders can stay healthy and innovative in a rapidly changing world.Carey unpacks why most great ideas have a five-to-seven-year shelf life, how leaders can navigate the “second S-curve” without losing their identity, and why humility and curiosity are key to long-term influence. They dive into the future of church models — from micro-expressions to digital communities — and explore how to build platforms that serve a mission instead of egos.Whether you're a pastor, entrepreneur, or digital innovator, this conversation will challenge you to rethink what growth, character, and calling look like in the new era of church leadership.Resources and Links Mentioned in this Episode:Reliant Mission: reliant.org/cppNewBreed TrainingThanks for listening to the church planter podcast. We're here to help you go where no one else is going and do what no one else is doing to reach people, no one else is reaching.Make sure to review and subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast service to help us connect with more church planters.

Guest speaker, Carey Nieuwhof, brings a message on burnout.#iamembraceEmbrace is one church, made up of multiple campuses and network churches. We exist to relentlessly reach the next person for Jesus.Give Herehttps://www.iamembrace.com/giveStay ConnectedWebsite: iamembrace.comEmbrace Church Facebook: facebook.com/iamembraceEmbrace Church Instagram: instagram.com/iamembraceAdam Weber YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@adamaweber Adam Weber Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/adamaweberAdam Weber Instagram: instagram.com/adamaweber

There's a kind of faith that performs instead of worships, and eventually, that kind of faith breaks down. This week on Win Today, Paul and Hannah McClure from Bethel Music join me to talk about the slow drift from softness to cynicism in the life of a believer. We talk about the orphan spirit, fake faith that looks right but can't hold weight, and how disappointment left untreated eventually hardens into disconnection. We also confront the myth that faith equals certainty, and why true worship isn't just a song; it's surrender in the absence of clarity. For anyone who's battled disillusionment in church, questioned the language of worship, or wondered whether they're singing words they don't believe anymore, this conversation offers both confrontation and comfort. Paul and Hannah don't sugarcoat the road. But they do point to healing. This isn't about emotional hype. It's about reclaiming your heart before it turns cold. You'll learn: Why disappointment often precedes cynicism What the orphan spirit really is—and how it forms How fake faith is often learned, not chosen Why worship without surrender is just noise How to walk with God when certainty disappears Guest Bio Paul and Hannah McClure are worship leaders, songwriters, and pastors with Bethel Music. Known for their vulnerability, depth, and refusal to perform, their ministry helps people reconnect with a God who isn't afraid of pain. They've led a generation to encounter God through honesty, not hype. Their story is one of surrender, resilience, and the long journey back from burnout, cynicism, and emotional numbness. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

There's a way to sound spiritually mature while staying completely unformed, and therapy culture is helping people do just that. This week on Win Today, Matt Chandler joins us to confront the drift we're experiencing: where therapy culture replaces repentance, where identity confusion isn't grieved, and where safe Christian jargon sounds right but does nothing to transform the soul. We talk about why discipleship doesn't always feel safe. Why comfort doesn't heal—it sedates. And how complaining isn't just venting; it's forming your view of God. Matt names the thin theology that's left people chasing emotional relief instead of spiritual formation. This conversation doesn't throw stones at therapy. But it does confront what happens when comfort becomes your gospel and language becomes your liturgy. If you've traded formation for slogans, been discipled more by feelings than by truth, or confused Christian language with actual obedience, this conversation isn't just timely—it's necessary. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

We want God to come through, but on our terms. We demand ease, favor, instant breakthrough, and validation, and when those expectations aren't met, we call it a trial. But what if the real trial is our refusal to lay down our entitlement? This week on Win Today, bestselling author Gary Thomas pulls no punches. He exposes the modern lie that faith means personal fulfillment, that comfort means favor, and that hardship means failure. And he shows how distraction is more than a bad habit—it's a spiritual breakdown. Because when the soul loses its focus, bitterness, offense, and relational dysfunction are not far behind. If you've ever felt spiritually entitled, subtly bitter, or confused about why you're still offended by things you “moved past,” this conversation is for you. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

271. Ways to Engage with Youth, Teens, and Gen Z in Church and at Home with Dr. Kara Powell   *Transcription Below*   1 Thessalonians 2:8 NIV "so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well."   Kara Powell, PhD, is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and the founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. Named by Christianity Today as one of "50 Women to Watch," Kara serves as a youth and family strategist for Orange, and she also speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences. Kara has authored or coauthored numerous books, including Faith Beyond Youth Group, 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future, 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, Growing With, Growing Young, The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family, and the entire Sticky Faith series.   Kara and her husband, Dave, are regularly inspired by the learning and laughter that come from their three young adult children.   Questions and Topics We Cover: What insights do you have to share on Gen-Z? When it comes to navigating intergenerational tensions, how can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? In your most recent book, entitled, Future-Focused Church, you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead. What led you to that realization?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 127 Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw 2 God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with Author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, Annie Chapman   Stories Sampler from The Savvy Sauce Stories Series: 233 Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel 235 Stories Series: Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer 242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel 245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow 246 Stories Series: Experiencing God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.    I am so honored to introduce my guest for today, Dr. Kara Powell. She is the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute. She's also founder of the 10x10 Collaboration and named by today as one of 50 women to watch. She is also extremely humble and insightful as she's going to discuss how we can leverage the power of stories and questions in our relationships at church and in our family and in beyond, and this is to model the life of Jesus. Make sure you also stay tuned in through the end because she's going to share a plethora of conversations and questions specifically to ask when we're engaging in conversation with young people, whether that's our own children and teens or our grandchildren or people in the community or our churches. It's some questions that you don't want to miss. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kara.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:07 - 2:09) Oh, it's so good to be with you and your audience, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (2:09 - 2:13) Well, I'd love for you just to first give us a snapshot of your current life and share what's led you to the work that you get to do today.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:14 - 4:06) Yeah, absolutely. So, let's see. I'll start with family. Dave and I have been married for I think 27-ish years, and we have three kids who are 24, 22, and 19.   Our youngest is a college freshman, and so we're technically empty nesters, but I actually like the term open nesters better because our kids come back, which we love. They come back in the summers and sometimes after college. And we actually, since I live in Pasadena, California, which had the fires in January, we actually have another 22-year-old young woman living with us, which we love.   So, we love having my husband, Dave, and I love having young people around, whether it's our own three kids or the young woman who's living with us. And I'm also a faculty member at Fuller Seminary, and while I certainly teach periodically, my main roles at Fuller actually have to do with leadership beyond Fuller. I'm the chief of leadership formation at Fuller, so I oversee all of Fuller's non-degree offerings, and then I'm the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, which is a research center that studies the faith of adolescents.   And I love that question, what got me to the work that I do today? Well, God would be the answer to that, but I was a long-term youth pastor here in Southern California at two different churches, loved teenagers, and Fuller was getting ready to start a new research center that was going to listen to the needs of parents and leaders, and then do research to answer those needs. And that really intrigued me, because I love young people, and I love research, and I love real-life ministry and family.   And so, I thought, well, I would love to hear more about that center, and I've been at Fuller now for over 20 years.   Laura Dugger: (4:07 - 4:17) Wow, that's incredible. And quick side note, I'm just so sorry for everything that you all endured in January with all the fires.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:17 - 4:39) Yeah, it's heartbreaking, and in some ways, in many ways, devastating. And I'm grateful for how God is working through churches and working through God's people. So, there's all sorts of bright spots in the midst of the pain.   But yes, please pray that churches and God's people would be salt and light, because it's going to be a few years of rebuilding.   Laura Dugger: (440 - 4:43) Yes, Lord Jesus, may that be true. Amen.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:43 - 4:44) Yeah, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (4:45 - 5:17) And I know with your background, you've studied practical theology, and you also have this broad knowledge of psychology. But some churches haven't studied psychology as much, and so I think that typically leads to less of an appreciation for it. But my fear is that they may miss out if they completely ignore it.   So, will you share some of the benefits that you've seen that come from applying God's truth from any of theologies?   Dr. Kara Powell: (5:17 - 8:14) Yeah, yeah. Well, at Fuller Seminary, we have two schools. One is our School of Mission and Theology, which I'm an alum of and a faculty member in.   And the other is our School of Psychology. And so, Laura, you asked a question that's right at the heart of what we love about training leaders and therapists. And in fact, my favorite statue at Fuller, the title of it is Planting the Cross in the Heart of Psychology.   And that's exactly what we believe. So, you know, God's made us as holistic people. And I love thinking both about how is our theology driving us as well as our psychology.   And you know, one way to think about our psychology, a colleague of mine at Fuller talks about people's losses and longings. And that phrase has been so helpful for me. Like, what are people's losses and longings?   And how is that connected with how they're responding? So, so much of our work at the Fuller Youth Institute relates to young people. And I remember coaching a senior pastor who was experiencing a lot of resistance to prioritizing young people from senior adults.   And what the senior pastor realized is, of course, I shouldn't say of course, but in this particular church, when he was saying we need to prioritize young people, those over 60 felt like, wait, that means I'm not going to be a priority. People who are older often already feel that here in US culture. And so, no wonder that was intimidating, that was threatening, that felt like a loss to those senior adults.   And so, I love what the senior pastor ended up doing is he implemented one of our principles of change that we recommend, which is people support what they create. And so, if you want to build ownership, then how can you involve as many people as possible in creating whatever you're trying to develop? And so, the senior pastor went to the senior adults and apologized for sending a message that, you know, made them feel like they were not going to be priority.   And instead, he said, how can we make this church a church that your grandkids would love to be part of? And that connected with those, you know, post 60, most of whom were grandparents, whether their grandkids live locally, or, you know, globally, they wanted their church to be a place where their grandkids and other young people would connect. And so, you know, he turned senior adults feeling like they were peripheral, to really feeling like they were partners in what God was doing in the church.   And so, yes, I would invite us all to think about what are people's losses and longings? And how is that contributing to how they're responding to whatever we're all experiencing?   Laura Dugger: (8:15 - 10:20) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time?   Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From premarital to parenting to the empty nest phase, there is an opportunity for you. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.   These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication and more.   I've stayed on Winshape before and I can attest to their generosity, food and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, windshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Well, Kara, you've also done so much research on young people and just in general, I'd love to hear what insights do you have on Gen Z?   Dr. Kara Powell: (10:20 - 14:16) Yeah, yeah. Well, we at the Fuller Youth Institute, we have spent a lot of time studying and doing research on Gen Z, which tends to be those who are 14, 15 and up. Our very youngest teenagers are all actually now Gen Alpha, but we'll talk about Gen Z.   And as we've looked at the research, we've landed on three words which we think well describe Gen Z. First, they are anxious. And if we look at young people today, they do have unprecedented levels of mental health challenges, anxiety, depression, stress, even suicidal thoughts.   And so, we do a lot of training to help parents and leaders understand mental health and how they can be a safe space and get young people the help they need. So, this is an anxious generation. This is an adaptive generation.   This generation is so creative and entrepreneurial and visionary. You know, while there's a lot of downsides to technology, technology also helps young people know more about what's wrong in the world and sometimes take steps to make what is wrong right and restore God's justice to our world. And so, this is an adaptive and creative generation.   And then in addition to being anxious and adaptive, this is a diverse generation. Here in the U.S., we crossed a line in 2020. In the midst of everything else that happened in 2020, we crossed a line where now 50% of those under 18 are young people of color.   So, for your audience to just keep that in mind that 50% of those under 18 are white and 50% are young people of color and that percentage of young people of color is likely going to continue to grow. So, I would say those are three key attributes to this generation. And then, you know, when it comes to what this generation is experiencing spiritually, I really appreciate what my friend and fellow podcaster Carey Nieuwhof has described with young people that they are both in revival and retreat.   And, you know, we see data for both. There's so much that's encouraging about how young people are responding to Jesus. They're open to Jesus.   We're seeing this especially on college campuses. They're responding in mass on college campuses in some really beautiful ways. Both InterVarsity and Crew are seeing that.   But then this generation is also in some ways distancing themselves from the institutional church. Springtide Research Institute did some study of 13- to 25-year-olds and found that 13- to 25-year-olds in the U.S. are almost three times as likely to say they've been hurt by organized religion as trust organized religion. So, our 13- to 25-year-olds are distrustful, a little cynical about institutional religion.   And so, we have our work cut out for us to build trust back. And let me just say, sadly, we have earned young people's lack of trust by the way that by our moral failures, by the way that we have not been as loving as Jesus wants us to be and as young people want us to be. And so, the good news is the way that we re-earn trust with young people is by little acts of kindness and consistency.   So, anybody listening can rebuild trust with a young person. The research on trust shows it's not about heroic acts. It's about sending a text and saying, hey, I'm praying for you.   It's about remembering a young person's name at church. It's about showing up at a young person's soccer game. So, in the midst of this generation and being both revival and retreat, there are practical steps that any adult can take.   Laura Dugger: (14:17 - 14:36) Wow, that's so good. You've got ideas now coming to me for how to pour into even the youth group. This is probably a very random idea, but how great would it be to have a Google calendar of all of their events and then whoever in the church is available to go support? That would just be a practical way.   Dr. Kara Powell: (14:36 - 15:45) Okay, so, Laura, you have just named actually one of my favorite ideas that a church that is here in Los Angeles is doing. They created a Google calendar and volunteers as well as parents can add information. But then what this church did, they started with a Google calendar and then it's a church of about 300 people.   And so, they have now started every Sunday morning. They have a slide with what's happening in young people's lives for the next week. So-and-so is in a play.   So-and-so has a basketball game. So-and-so has a Boy Scout activity. And so, adults in the church, often senior adults who have some extra time, are showing up at kids' events.   Plus, every week they're prioritizing young people. So, when you're a young person in that church and every week there's a slide about you and your friends and what's happening, that says something to the young people sitting there. So, yeah, you're-I actually love that idea.   And especially for smaller churches, I think that's one of the big advantages of smaller churches is we can be more intimate and caring. So, yes, let's please do that.   Laura Dugger: (15:46 - 16:00) Oh, that's so good. I love hearing how that played out. And now I'm also curious because you mentioned it's Gen Alpha behind.   Do you have any insight onto them as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:00 - 16:27) Well, you're going to have to have me back because we are just-we received a grant from the Lilly Endowment, who's funded much of our research to study Gen Alpha. And they're just getting old enough that we really can, quite honestly. And so, like literally this week we are working on survey questions for Gen Alpha.   And we'll have more in the next year about what's similar between Gen Z and Gen Alpha, as well as what's different. So, I'd rather wait and save that for later.   Laura Dugger: (16:28 - 16:34) That sounds great. I'm especially interested in that generation. That is all four of our daughters would fall within that. So, I can't wait to hear your findings.   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:34 - 16:36) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (16:38 - 17:15) And I think it's also bringing up, I'm going to link to a previous episode, Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw, because I don't know if you feel this same way. I think millennials especially got pegged as the generational bias put on them was actually confused with their life stage. And Hayden's the one who wrote about that and drew that to our attention.   So, that's helpful to sift out as we're thinking of young people too, because sometimes older generations can look down on younger generations and see some of the shortcomings. Do you see that as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (17:16 - 18:55) Oh, for sure. For sure. I think we compare young people to who we are now instead of remembering our 13 and 19 and 25 year old self.   And so, I mean, that's one of our biggest pieces of advice when it comes to young people is instead of judging them, how do we journey with them? How do we really empathize with what they're experiencing? And when we are tempted to judge young people, let's just start at, well, let's just stop and ask ourselves, would we want to be a young person today?   It's so very challenging to be a young person today. I mean, mental health alone, like if I think about my tendency to, as a teenager myself, to compare myself with others, to be worried that I was left out. I mean, if there was a cell phone that showed me everything my friends were doing without me, and I'm stuck at home, like no wonder that young people feel more anxious.   I think I would really be struggling with anxiety if I was a teenager now. I mean, honestly, even at my age, I don't check social media on Friday night or Saturday night, because I might be, Dave and I might be having leftovers and either working or watching a movie on Netflix. And I go on social media and my friends are out with their husbands and having this phenomenal time.   And at my age, that makes me feel insecure, let alone imagine being a 13 or 18- or 22-year-old and navigating that. So, so yes, I think how can we empathize instead of finger point?   Laura Dugger: (18:56 - 19:12) Oh, and you write about how to navigate intergenerational tensions. How can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? And I guess, especially in the church?   Dr. Kara Powell: (19:12 - 22:39) Yeah, yeah, great question. So, one of our books is called Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. And we studied young people to try to understand the deep questions driving them.   And we landed on three. Identity, who am I? Belonging, where do I fit? And purpose, what difference can I make?   Identity, belonging and purpose. And those are that's such a helpful framework to understand young people and to empathize with them.   First off, I would say all of us are wrestling with identity, belonging and purpose. And when I feel emotional heat about an issue, if I feel insecure about something, it's usually because it's pricking at my identity, belonging or purpose. And so, that helps us realize that we navigate those questions, too.   But then also for the we who are parents, stepparents, grandparents, mentors of young people, you know, if a young person we care about is doing something that feels a little odd, a little askew, a little bit, that's not like them. If we can take a step back and ask, OK, what are they wrestling with? Is it identity?   Is it belonging? Is it purpose? That helps us empathize and know how to either ask a better question or, you know, give a little bit of hope rooted in whether that's rooted in scripture or in our own experience.   And so, yes, with our with our three kids, when I take a step back and ask, OK, they're saying something that feels odd or unlike them or I'm surprised this is provoking this response in them. Is it is it their identity, belonging or purpose that's at play here? It's like the penny drops and I come to understand.   So, I would say, you know, if we can wear those identity, belonging and purpose lenses, that really helps us understand young people. The other thing and, you know, I'm a professor, so I would give myself about a C plus in what I'm going to share next. OK, so if this is something I'm working on, it's this it's never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead.   And so, the more that we can ask questions about what young people are experiencing, like why, why, you know, in a very nonjudgmental way, like I'm just curious. And I start a lot of my questions with that. I'm curious.   I'm curious, like what does tick tock mean to you? Then, you know, that that can open up a real conversation instead of them feeling like we're somehow judging them for their technological use. I was proud of myself yesterday.   Like I said, I give myself about a C plus on this. But yesterday I was talking to my daughter about something. And I asked her, like, well, because she had stepped up to lead something.   And so instead of offering my advice, I said to her, well, you know, what do you think you did well as you were leading? And is there anything that you would want to do differently? And we were in the line of a fast-food place.   And I thought, yes, way to go. I ask questions instead of making statements, instead of offering my opinion. So, and sometimes we have to offer our opinion, for sure.   But just as a general rule, we can ask questions, especially the older our kids get. They respond to that better than us always sharing what we think.   Laura Dugger: (22:39 - 22:47) Well, and I also think you're even modeling this in the way you share stories is humility. So, when you partner that together, that seems very powerful.   Dr. Kara Powell: (22:48 - 23:53) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My one of my kids said something so interesting. At Mother's Day, my husband asked each of them to share something that they appreciated about me and which was wonderful to receive that affirmation.   And one of them and I I'm not going to reveal the gender here because I haven't asked this child permission to share this. But what my child said was that I was asking them for advice in a way that made it feel more like we were becoming friends. And I had asked this child for advice in the last couple of months about a couple situations.   And so, again, my kids are 19, 22 and 24. So, you know, it's different with younger kids. But for those of us with older kids, it was significant to this child of mine that I was asking them for advice.   And so, I want to keep doing that. I want to keep doing that. So, because I truly do want their perspective.   Yeah, I truly do want their perspective. And it means something to them when I do.   Laura Dugger: (23:54 - 25:28) Yes, absolutely. And I'm thinking back, this may have been like episode three back in 2018. But I talk with Annie Chapman.   She had written the book, The Mother-in-Law Dance. And what you're saying, she pointed out that what makes us a great parent and especially a great mother, the first half of our children's life or the first portion of our children's life at home, it's the opposite of the latter years. And so, you're right.   You're not probably going to ask your five-year-old for advice. But at your kids' phases, that is significant. Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights?   Make sure you access all of this at TheSavvySauce.com by clicking the button that says Join Our Email List so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy.    This discussion with young people is also tied into your recent and optimistic book.   So, I'll hold it up here. It's in and you did co-author this with Jake Mulder and Raymond Chang. So, it's entitled Future-Focused Church, and you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead.   So, what led you to this optimistic realization?   Dr. Kara Powell: (25:28 - 26:23) Yeah. Yeah. Well, first, God, you know, this is where being a practical theologian comes into play.   Like I'm always trying to understand what is God up to in this situation and just the way that God is constantly working, redeeming, recreating. So, you know, that's the heart of my optimism and Jake and Ray's optimism as fellow co-authors. And then also Future-Focused Church is based on research we did with over a thousand churches where we journeyed with them in the change process and just the way that they were able to make changes that made them more loving, made them more hospitable to young people.   So, it's, you know, it's people like your listeners and churches like those that your audience is part of. That's what made us optimistic is to see how God is working through actual churches.   Laura Dugger: (26:25 - 26:40) I love that. And even near the beginning, it was on page 26, you succinctly gave a definition of a future-focused church. So, will you share that definition and also elaborate on each one of the facets?   Dr. Kara Powell: (26:40 - 29:17) Yeah, yeah. So, it starts with a group of Jesus followers. And, you know, if you look at the original Greek for church, ekklesia, it's not a building.   We use that phrase incorrectly when we say, you know, I'll meet you at church and we mean a building. It's actually those who are called out or from. So, it's always people in the New Testament.   And so, we believe a church is a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. And that's really important to us is this isn't about what Kara, Jake and Ray think you should do or what the church down the street is doing or even what your denomination is doing. It's you seeking God's direction together.   So, and we could have stopped there, honestly, a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. But then because of the time we've spent with over a thousand churches, because of our commitment to young people, because of what we see happening these days, we added three what we call checkpoints, three things that we think should be priorities for churches these days. One is relationally discipling young people.   And, you know, we were intentionally using the words relationally discipling. It's not just entertaining. It's not just standing near young people at worship service.   But how are we actually investing in young people? And then secondly, modeling kingdom diversity. Again, if you look at our country ethnically and racially, we are a diverse country.   And so, how can we model that? How can our churches reflect what our neighborhoods are? And then thirdly, tangibly loving our neighbors.   Jesus said that, you know, they will know that we are Christians by our love for another, for each other, as well as our love for neighbors. And so, how can we make sure that we are really a place that is salt and light? As I mentioned, you know, we are trying to be in Pasadena as churches these days as we're recovering from the fires.   So, we encourage churches to look at those three checkpoints in particular. But then again, we want churches to figure out what God is inviting them towards. So, maybe that's more prayer.   Maybe that's being more involved globally in evangelism, you know, whatever it might be. Seek that direction together. But then what we try to do is give a map to get there, because a lot of churches know what they want to change, but don't know how to bring about change.   And so, that's actually what the bulk of our book is about, is helping leaders know how to move their church from here to God's direction for them.   Laura Dugger: (29:18 - 30:27) And that's incredible that you walked with so many churches through that process. But I was especially encouraged by you being partial to sharing stories. And so, we recently did an entire stories series on The Savvy Sauce, and it was so compelling and faith building.   I can link to a sample of those in the show notes. But you write about stories shaping culture. And I just I want to share your quote and then ask you how we can actually implement this.   So, your quote is from page 57, where you write, “Organizational culture is best communicated and illustrated by stories. As well modeled by Jesus, one of the best ways to shift the culture of a church is through the disciplined and consistent telling of clear and compelling stories that invite a different culture and way of being.” So, Kara, how have you seen this done well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (30:27 - 33:10) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think about whatever system we're in, whether it's our families or whether it's our churches or whatever organization we're in. Yeah, our stories become really the key messages of what our culture is.   And so, I want to go back to that church that we were talking about that had a Google calendar and now does a Sunday announcement every week of kids' events. Well, that church is also capturing stories of the 81-year-old who showed up at the 16-year-old soccer game, who didn't even know her all that well, but just had a free Thursday afternoon and knew that she was playing. And the pastor who was also on the sidelines at that soccer game, who ended up talking to both the parents of the 16-year-old and the 81-year-old.   And so, that became a story for that church of how different generations are supporting young people. And so, that pastor has told that story multiple, multiple times. You know, I just think about in our family, our kids love hearing our stories.   And that's part of how they I mean, it's a big, a big theme and how they come to know what it means to be a Powell. So, you know, earlier I said, you know, I said, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead. I think the exception to that, Laura, is if we're going to tell a story because stories communicate so much.   One of our one of our children is struggling with being anxious about something. And I was anxious last night. I never lose sleep.   I so rarely lose sleep. But I did last night. I was up for about an hour and a half in the middle of the night, finally ended up having a prayer time.   And that helped me go back to sleep. But I'm looking forward to telling my child, who's also struggling with anxiety, that story of me experiencing some, you know, 3:00 a.m. anxiety and what eventually helped me is kind of reflecting on a mantra I feel like God's given me. And I want to share that with my child, not to nag them, but just to let them know that, you know, in our family, this is how we want to try to respond to anxiety.   And maybe my story can be helpful for you the next time that you're struggling with it, which might be today. So, so, yes, the more that we can share our present and our past experiences, whether it's as individuals, families, organizations, the more that we communicate the cultural values that we want.   Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:45) That's so good. And I love how you're relating that to parents as well, because from the very youngest ages, tell me a story. And if it's like if we remember a story of them when they're a child, they just grasp onto that.   And we when we're tired at the end of the night, if we run out of our stories, we love even just reading aloud true stories of other people, too. OK, and I'm partnering then thinking of stories and one of your facets about I love how you said it. I'd love for you to repeat. Is it strategically discipling, relationally discipling?   Dr. Kara Powell: (33:45 - 33:46) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (33:46 - 35:03) OK, so my brother and sister's church, I'm just going to highlight theirs because I love something that both of them are doing with our nieces and nephews. They just have them, the youth, write down three names of somebody in a different generation above theirs that they would enjoy getting to know, spending time with. And then they get matched with one of those people and they enter a yearlong mentorship relationship.   And I'm just thinking, one, their mentors all happen to be open nesters. And the male and female who have mentored our nieces and nephews, the female took our nieces, would send them a copy of a recipe, say, get these groceries this week. I'm coming to your house on Tuesday and we're going to cook all of this together and have it ready for your family dinner.   Just so practical and that they just build a love for each other. And then a similar thing with our nephews, where whatever that mentor's skill was, he was great at even making, I think, wood fired pizzas and just showing them practical skills, but relationally investing. And you see the youth's growth and maturity from that discipleship.   Dr. Kara Powell: (35:03 - 36:17) So, yeah, that's awesome. And not only the young people, but the adults, too. Like what's been so great, Laura, is, you know, while much of our research has looked at how adults change young people and how churches change young people, every time we study that, we see how young people change adults and churches, too.   So, you know, for that male and female who are mentoring your nieces and nephews, how they come to understand more about themselves, God, life, scripture, as they're spending time with young people, that's just really, really powerful. So, I also want to highlight, I love how your example, how it starts by asking young people, like who are some adults that you would like to spend more time with that you look up to? And, you know, we would do that with our kids when we needed babysitters.   Like who are some adults that you would like to get to know and how wonderful then that we could ask those adults, especially if they were of babysitting age, to come and be with our kids. And that way we were getting the babysitting we needed and our kids were getting the mentoring that they needed. So, so, yes, I think, you know, giving a young person some agency and who they spend time with, that's really beautiful in that example.   Laura Dugger: (36:18 - 36:21) Oh, that's and that's genius for a family life.   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:21 - 36:22) Yeah, exactly, exactly.   Laura Dugger: (36:23 - 36:39) Well, you also share some other helpful tips for churches, such as considering questions like, would anyone miss our church if it closed down? So, do you have any other practical tips that you want to make sure we don't miss?   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:39 - 40:19) Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I'll offer a few questions that we have found really helpful. And I'll start with questions when your kids are in elementary and then I'll give a couple of questions when your kids are older.   So, so one of the questions that we love asking at dinner when our kids were in elementary was, how did you see God at work today? And I will say that when I first raised that question, one of my daughters said, “Well, mommy, I can't answer that question. And I said, why not?”   She said, “Well, I don't have a job. How did you see God at work today? So, then we had to say, well, how did you see God working today?”   And I, you know, and equally important as our kids asking that question is that we were, excuse me, as our kids answering that question is that we were answering that question. And so, so, you know, any way that you can involve meaningful sharing, whether it's a dinner, whether it's a bedtime and that you are sharing, too. So, so that that's been a great one for our family.   And then when your kids get older, a couple come to mind. One is two pairs of questions actually come to mind. One is, you know, the phrase never make a statement.   Maybe you can ask the question said sometimes we do need to offer our advice as parents, our perspective. And I have found when I do that with my kids is now that they're late young adults, if I ask them first, well, what do you disagree with and what I said and give them an opportunity to critique what I said, then and then I ask a second question. OK, well, what might you agree with and what I said?   They're far more open to sharing what they agree with if they first have had a chance to critique me. So, I offer that as in those moments when you do need to offer your opinion or perspective, how can we still make it a dialogue? One way is to invite your kid to critique you.   And they'll probably point out things that you do need to reconsider, or at least it's good to hear those from your young person. Another pair of questions that that I have found so helpful with our kids is as they get older and really come to own their own faith. I love asking our kids, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe?   And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? So, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe?   What I love about that is that it's making overt that our faith is going to continue to change and grow. And that's true for all of us. And it also makes differences discussable, because I'd far rather know how my kids' faith is changing and how it's different or similar than mine than not know.   And, you know, as we've asked our kids those questions over the years, sometimes their answer is like, not much has changed. Like, you know, but other times they do have different opinions that they want to share with me. And then I try to have that non-defensive, oh, OK, well, I'm curious.   Then again, starting phrase with I'm curious and then asking a question has given us some of the best conversations. So, you can get really tangible. How did you see God at work today?   But then as your kids get older, ask questions that that are more open-ended and can help you really understand where your kids are at.   Laura Dugger: (40:20 - 41:15) I love that.    And I'm just thinking if people are listening like I listen to podcasts, it's when I'm on the go, when I'm doing a walk in the morning or if I'm cleaning around the house. And if you don't get a chance to take notes, we do have transcripts available now for all these episodes, but I would think so many people have written in about dialogue and questions for teenagers and how to handle.   And I love the way you responded to all of that. So, even grab the transcript and write down those questions and try them at dinner or bedtime tonight. But then even thinking of churches for practical tips, what do you have as far as hospitality and the impact that it could make if we're building relationships through hospitality?   But you also call out three ways to build relationships through sharing meals, sharing stories and sharing experiences.   Dr. Kara Powell: (41:15 - 43:08) Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think you've named it, Laura. How do we have a hospitable, open heart and open churches?   And I just want to go back to this question. Like, is our church a place that our kids and our grandkids would want to be part of? And if we keep asking that question, I think it helps us prioritize the next generation and make space for them at our meals, within our stories and within our experiences.   Now, I will say this, you know, I talk so much about intergenerational relationships and bringing the generations together. Like, I do think there's a time and a place for 16-year-olds to be on their own and 46-year-olds to be on their own and 76-year-olds to be on their own. It's just finding that balance of when do we bring all the generations together?   And then when do we want to have those special life development, life stage development conversations ourselves? And most churches are swinging far more toward we keep generations separate and need to swing the pendulum back to how can we have shared meals together? How can we serve together in ways that are shared?   And, you know, I'll just say this last thought when it comes to sharing experiences, especially those that are service. You know, a lot of churches have young people who are serving. They're in children's ministry, they're in sound, they're in tech, etc.   And that's awesome. And I think the question becomes, like, how can that young person be more than just a warm body who passes out graham crackers? And how can I think, OK, I'm teaching third graders and I'm also trying to mentor this 15-year-old who's working with me with the third graders and same with sound.   So, you know, anytime you're interacting with young people, it's an opportunity to influence, especially as you're sharing more about yourself.   Laura Dugger: (43:10 - 43:15) Love that. And you seem like an idea person as well. So, I'm going to bounce another idea.   Dr. Kara Powell: (43:16 - 43:16) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (43:16 - 43:45) What I'm gathering is obviously we're keeping Jesus at the center and you're not downplaying the need for scripture or Bible study. And those kind of things but also adding there is value in I'm thinking shared experience. Specifically, I'm thinking of pickleball.   It's something that appeals to a wide age range. What if your church had invested in a pickleball sport to do something that could bring people together? So, what are your thoughts on that?     Dr. Kara Powell: (43:45 - 45:22) Yeah. Yeah. Pickleball, you know, senior adults who need tech help from teenagers.   That's another great way to connect people. I mean, any kind of shared interest 1 Thessalonians 2:8 is such an important scripture passage for me when it comes to discipleship. And Paul writes that we were delighted to share with you not just the gospel, but our very lives.   And so, how can we share life, whether it's pickleball, whether it's pizza? I'm running out of alliteration here. I was trying to do something else that started with P.   And for leaders who are listening, how can you take what you're already doing and make it more intergenerational? So, that's the other thing we like to tell churches is whether it's pickleball or whether it's well, we're already serving at the local homeless center to help people who are unhoused. Well, instead of that only being a youth event, maybe make that an all church event and see if adults come who can be mentoring young people.   So, you know, I love what one church did. Many churches have done this, actually, when they're looking for small group for homes where small groups can be for young people instead of going to like the parents of the teenagers. What if we go to our senior adults or our open or slash empty nesters and see if they'll open their homes?   Because then it's bringing more adults into contact with young people. And those adults who open their homes can also open their lives. So, yeah, just continuing to ask, how can we make this more of a connection across generations?   Goodness.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 45:39) And you have so many ideas and some of these are mentioned in this book, but you've also written many more helpful resources. So, will you give us an overview of the other books that you've authored and share a bit of what we might find if we read? Dr. Kara Powell: (45:39 - 46:42) Yeah. So, our most recent book, as you've mentioned, is Future Focus Church, and that's especially geared to help leaders know how to move a ministry from where they are now to where God wants it to be. It's been so great to journey with leaders through that.   Probably our best book that offers a ton of questions you can ask young people is Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, where we get into identity, belonging and purpose, which I mentioned. And we have over 300 questions that an adult, whether it's a family member or a mentor or a neighbor or congregant can use with young people. And then the last one I'll offer is The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family comes out of our previous Sticky Faith research.   How do you help young people have faith that lasts? We have a special chapter in that book for grandparents. So, for any grandparents who are listening, that whole book and that chapter is a great resource.   But also we have had a lot of parents, stepparents say that The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family has been one of their favorite books.   Laura Dugger: (46:43 - 47:02) That's incredible. I'll have to link to those in the show notes for today's episode. But I'm sure you're aware we are called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is anonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Dr. Kara Powell: (47:03 - 48:16) That's a really good question, Laura. OK, I'll say I'll share the first thing that came to mind when you asked it. Gosh, probably 10 or 12 years ago, I read a book and from the book I adapted a phrase for my work life and my personal life, which is if it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   As a busy mom, as a busy employee, as a busy leader, I see potential in so many things. And so, I want to say yes to so many things. And then I end up tired.   I end up empty. I end up not being able to say yes to something maybe better that comes a month later because I've already committed to, you know, plan my seventh graders camping trip or give a talk or, you know, whatever it might be. And so, that phrase, we made it a six-month experiment in the Foley Youth Institute as well as in our family.   Like it's not a definite yes, it's a no. And it really helped us say no to things, trim and I think find a much more manageable pace. So, as we pray, as we pray, it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   That's been game changing for me.   Laura Dugger: (48:17 - 48:57) Well, I love how much you've modeled applying these things at your work or in our church, but also in our family life. It's all transferable. And Kara, this has just been a super special conversation because you've been on my list to have a conversation with for over a decade, probably since I got my hands on Sticky Faith.   And I just appreciate we've been talking as we were praying before we were recording. You desire so much, not only for young people, but for all people to experience this abundant life in Christ. And I'm so grateful for you and just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Dr. Kara Powell: (48:57 - 49:03) Oh, my pleasure, Laura. And thanks to you and how you serve your audience as well as our world. It's been an honor.   Laura Dugger: (49:04 - 52:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

You think you're burned out, but what if you're actually just emotionally disconnected? What if your body is paying the price for unprocessed emotions you never gave yourself permission to feel? In today's episode of Win Today, married theologians and counselors Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw debunk the myths surrounding burnout, spiritual bypassing, and superficial healing. We're talking about what's really going on beneath the surface of emotional shutdown, how insecure attachment shows up in adult faith, and why your “soul senses” need to be reawakened if you want to actually experience wholeness. This isn't about self-help. This is about becoming whole—from the inside out. If you've ever been told to “just push through” or have spiritualized your pain away, this conversation is going to hit you like a defibrillator. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

What if the deepest work God does in us happens when no one sees? When we feel forgotten, disillusioned, or unsure if our faith is still intact? Most of us would rather skip the wilderness. But what if the desert isn't punishment—it's preparation? This week on Win Today, international recording artist Evan Craft joins us for a raw and honest conversation about faith in the silence, finding God in the dark night of the soul, and what it means to serve when no one applauds. Together, we confront the cynicism that creeps in when life feels unfair, the pressure to perform for spiritual approval, and the questions we rarely admit we're asking, especially when God doesn't move how we expected. If you've ever felt forgotten by God or frustrated with the silence, this episode is for you. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

83% of Americans say preaching impacts their decision on a church home. Having just filmed a new 45 video course called the Art of Preaching, Carey Nieuwhof and Mark Clark share 90 minutes of their best preaching tips from the course and their accumulated years of reaching tens of thousands of unchurched people.

We say we want transformation, but often we create environments that protect people from pain instead of preparing them for growth. In the process, we enable spiritual stagnation, emotional fragility, and shallow discipleship. This week on Win Today, Katie Davis Majors exposes the hidden dangers of well-meaning empathy, the false security of “safe spaces,” and the clichés that erode authentic faith. In this conversation, we'll also tackle how to live faithfully in the tension between what God has promised and what we see right now. If you've ever found yourself numbing pain instead of processing it, or if you've settled for comfort instead of maturity, this conversation will challenge you to grow, even when it costs you. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

We all want to overcome, but too often, we curate our pain out of view—tidy it up, slap a spiritual platitude on top, and hope time heals what we never confronted. This week on Win Today, ESPN's Lauren Sisler reveals what happened when her life fell apart at 18. She buried both of her parents just hours apart. And in the wake of that trauma, she didn't get a “hall pass” from grief. She didn't get a spiritual fast-forward button. She had to live every moment of it, raw and real. In this powerful conversation, we take on the lies of “rah-rah Christianity,” the armor of image management, and the emotional expense of avoidance. If you've ever wondered why God didn't spare you from the pain… or why it still lingers even though you “moved on,” this episode will meet you where you really live. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

Breaking the Silence: Why Pastors and Entrepreneurs Need Each OtherJoin host Justin Forman for an enlightening conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, leadership expert and former lead pastor, as they tackle one of the most important conversations in the modern church: bridging the gap between pastors and entrepreneurs. From his unique perspective of having served in both pastoral ministry and entrepreneurial ventures, Carey reveals why there's mutual intimidation between these two groups and how churches can unleash the untapped potential of their entrepreneurial members.This episode explores the crisis of community in entrepreneurship, why 50% of retired CEOs die within two years, and how churches possess the "convening power" to create lasting connections. Carey shares practical insights from leading churches that are successfully engaging their business leaders beyond "handing out programs and parking cars."Key Topics:The entrepreneurial isolation crisis: Why there's "no default community" for business leadersMutual intimidation: Why pastors feel inadequate around entrepreneurs and vice versaThe spiritual gift of entrepreneurship: Learning from the Apostle Paul's business modelMoving beyond volunteer tasks to meaningful engagement for high-capacity leadersHow churches can serve as "incubators" for Kingdom-minded business venturesThe difference between "real friends" and "deal friends" in entrepreneurial communitiesPractical steps for pastors to start entrepreneur-focused ministriesNotable Quotes:"I think for entrepreneurs, there's no default community. You're on your own. It's sort of the hero's journey. You start by yourself, that pioneer spirit. Within two years of retiring as a CEO, 50% of CEOs are dead." - Carey Nieuwhof"Pastors are thinking, I don't make a million dollars a year like I haven't got staff and employees like you do. I don't feel like I measure up, and I don't know, I've talked to so many pastors who are like, I know this guy or woman could give $3 million I'm terrified of making the ask." - Carey Nieuwhof"You've got some in your church, and they don't know how to contribute, and they're feeling alone and they're feeling isolated." - Carey Nieuwhof

There's a kind of rest that is still ravenous, and comfort alone is costing your soul more than you think. This week on Win Today, Tim Timberlake joins me to name the central lie of our era: that convenience equals progress. God rarely fits into the narrative designed by self‑help culture, and grief is rarely the speed bump we're told. When breakthrough is packaged and delivered, it disconnects you from the transformative power of pain. Tim unpacks why immediate comfort doesn't heal—it anesthetizes. Why rushing through grief doesn't preserve strength—it fractures your future. And why so many believers craft manufactured breakthroughs that collapse when real life tests them. If your fast-track faith feels flat…if comfort makes you morally weaker…or if you've chased progress more than presence, this episode confronts the real cost, and invites deeper formation. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

There's a humility you carry like baggage, and it's slowly wearing you down. This week, Dr. Les Parrott and Judah Smith join me to dismantle the false humility that masquerades as godliness while laundering shame. Humility becomes self-hatred when vulnerability is avoided and spiritual high-mindedness is mistaken for healing. Layer on top the epidemic of spiritual bypassing—pretending everything is okay—and you get a reluctance to ever speak pain. We unpack why your job is not to heal publicly, how real accountability looks different than performance, and why refusing to stay in the box of pretense is the most subversive spiritual act you can commit. Whether you've preached from the platform or hidden behind faith walls, this episode cuts through your shame fortress and lights a path to emotional and spiritual freedom. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

There's a lie you've turned into identity—that you must perform vulnerability to earn belonging. This week, Toni Collier joins me to pull the veil off emotional infidelity hidden in silence, the orphan wounds we carry in isolation, and the spiritual manipulation we excuse as authenticity. She's walked through heartbreaking betrayal, spiritual misuse, and the long deconstruction of self‑worth in ministry circles. And she has found that true vulnerability isn't performative—it's sacred, grounded, sacrificial, and healing. In this episode, we dismantle the theology of emotional scarcity, expose spiritual control disguised as care, and confront the cost of emotional isolation. Toni challenges common assumptions: that therapy alone solves trauma, that forgiveness equals denial, that age or faith automatically heals wounds. This conversation calls you home to integrity, community, and emotional wholeness. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

There's an architecture to dysfunction. It starts with broken beliefs about who you are, and it becomes lifestyle chaos. This week, Ed Latimore joins me to dismantle that architecture from the inside out. A former heavyweight boxer turned Stoic philosopher, physicist, and master of emotional discipline, Ed knows what happens when discipline outruns self-awareness and toughness becomes armor, not healing. We go deep on how distorted thinking drives destructive behavior; how emotional regulation isn't about feeling control—it's predictive science; and why optimism without realism becomes denial. This episode is a surgical blueprint for rethinking how you think, feel, and engage with life's stress. If you're tired of overthinking, overdoing, and still not seeing change, listen closely. Because transformation begins the moment you question what you're telling yourself about your own strength, your pain, and your beliefs. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

This week, Jefferson Fisher—a trial lawyer turned communication expert—walks us through why the art of slowing down a conversation is more powerful than shouting louder. He unpacks the truth about overexplaining, reveals why emotional manipulation often hides in plain sight, and shows how minor shifts can resolve arguments faster than any volume ever could. Jefferson also challenges the lie that talking proves knowledge. Instead, he shows why restraint builds trust, clarity, and real influence. If you've ever found yourself talking in circles, replaying conversations in your head, or trying to shout down someone else, this episode will give you the tools to stop reacting and start leading. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my NEW BOOK "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.  

Fact: Many churches with facilities and money lack people, while churches with people often lack facilities and funds. In this episode, Carey Nieuwhof argues why dying churches should transfer their buildings to growing congregations. He addresses the 5 key objections to this transition and demonstrates why overcoming these barriers creates a win for everyone involved in advancing the Kingdom's mission.

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