Podcast appearances and mentions of Edgar Schein

"While structure and process do shape behavior in certain ways, and it can nudge our beliefs in certain ways around this. It isn't as big a lever as people often think that it is."Karen & Paul discuss whether changing organizational structure can solve issues within a group. They explore how often cultural and relational problems are mistaken for structural ones.

Join us for the concluding part of an insightful conversation with Edgar Schein as he delves into the intricacies of embedding sustainability within organizational cultures, with a focus on safety. Discover why understanding and integrating sustainable practices are crucial from top management to middle managers. Dr. Schein lays out 12 key factors for effectively embedding values into a company culture and stresses the importance of attention, curiosity, and genuine interest from leaders to nurture an open, trustful environment. Alongside, the episode highlights examples and anecdotes illustrating transformative leadership practices essential for evolving successful organizations.

Welcome to the Pre-Accident Podcast with Todd Conklin, where today marks the first part of an enlightening two-part series featuring Edgar Schein and his son Peter. This episode dives deep into the nuances of trust and openness within organizational culture, particularly in relation to safety and effectiveness. Throughout this engaging conversation, Edgar Schein shares his experiences working with major companies and industries, illustrating how openness and trust are fundamental to creating a culture of safety and effectiveness. He emphasizes the significance of building strong interpersonal relationships within the workplace to foster an environment where employees feel safe to communicate potential issues. Join us as we explore the evolution of management relationships, moving beyond traditional role-based dynamics to embrace deeper, more meaningful connections that can transform organizational effectiveness. This episode is packed with insights and real-world examples that highlight the importance of trust and openness as the cornerstones of a thriving workplace culture.

Julie reviews Edgar Schein's thoughts on group growth and proposes a comparison to the left, the right, and the composite. Groups can be compared and contrasted to individuals in terms of their maturity, their ability to deal with reality, and their ability to solve problems and take in new information. We discuss the left and the right political groups in their current form.Follow Us:YouTubeTwitterFacebookTumblrAll audio & videos edited by: Jay Prescott VideographyClip Used: Democrats ‘memed' online for their ‘stupid signs' during Trump's Congress addressBy: Sky News Australia

In this episode of Grow a Small Business, host Troy Trewin interviews Mark LaScola, founder of On The Mark, a professional services firm specializing in organization design. Mark shares his 35-year journey, growing from a spare bedroom startup to a team of 40, culminating in a 2024 acquisition. He reveals insights on balancing leadership, resilience, and team collaboration. Mark also discusses the importance of documenting processes for scaling success. Don't miss his advice on creating sustainable change and staying agile in business. Why would you wait any longer to start living the lifestyle you signed up for? Balance your health, wealth, relationships and business growth. And focus your time and energy and make the most of this year. Let's get into it by clicking here. Troy delves into our guest's startup journey, their perception of success, industry reconsideration, and the pivotal stress point during business expansion. They discuss the joys of small business growth, vital entrepreneurial habits, and strategies for team building, encompassing wins, blunders, and invaluable advice. And a snapshot of the final five Grow A Small Business Questions: What do you think is the hardest thing in growing a small business? Mark LaScola believes the hardest thing in growing a small business is perseverance. He highlights the challenges of getting up every day, coping with ambiguity, and consistently putting one foot in front of the other despite setbacks. Mark emphasizes the importance of resilience, maintaining health, and finding ways to handle the psychological and physical demands of running a business over time. What's your favourite business book that has helped you the most? Mark LaScola's favorite business books include "Good to Great" by Jim Collins, "The Learning Organization" by Peter Senge, and Edgar Schein's works on process consultation. He also admires early communication works by Virginia Satir, which have profoundly influenced his approach to leadership and organizational design. Are there any great podcasts or online learning resources you'd recommend to help grow a small business? Mark LaScola recommends exploring a variety of podcasts and online learning resources to grow a small business. While he doesn't focus on any single resource, he values content on economics, behavioral science, and creative industries for diverse perspectives. Mark avoids overly popularized shows and prefers podcasts with substance and actionable insights, such as those focusing on behavioral economics, leadership, and business strategy. He believes branching out beyond one's industry can spark valuable ideas and foster innovation. What tool or resource would you recommend to grow a small business? Mark LaScola emphasizes the importance of listening to your customers and adapting your products or services based on market trends and feedback. While he doesn't highlight a specific tool, he recommends mastering strategic planning and understanding how to anticipate and respond to changes in the marketplace. He believes these skills are essential for staying competitive and fostering sustainable business growth. What advice would you give yourself on day one of starting out in business? Mark LaScola's advice for starting out in business revolves around resilience, passion, and adaptability. He emphasizes following your instincts and staying focused on your vision, even amidst uncertainties. Challenges are inevitable, but they teach resilience and the importance of solving problems early to create options. Building a strong support system is essential for navigating tough times, while celebrating small wins helps maintain momentum. Above all, he encourages staying grounded, planning for the unexpected, and embracing the unpredictable nature of entrepreneurship. Book a 20-minute Growth Chat with Troy Trewin to see if you qualify for our upcoming course. Don't miss out on this opportunity to take your small business to new heights! Enjoyed the podcast? Please leave a review on iTunes or your preferred platform. Your feedback helps more small business owners discover our podcast and embark on their business growth journey.     Quotable quotes from our special Grow A Small Business podcast guest: Follow your passion, but stay grounded and ready for the unexpected – Mark LaScola Success begins with listening to your customers and adapting to their needs – Mark LaScola Resilience is the key to navigating the inevitable challenges of business – Mark LaScola      

Psychological safety is a crucial but often misunderstood concept in modern organizations. In this episode, Andrew and Mark take a deep dive into its origins, how it became a foundational principle of high-performing teams, and why "safe to challenge" can sometimes backfire if implemented poorly.We explore the history, research, and practical applications of psychological safety, from its early roots in therapeutic psychology to Amy Edmondson's groundbreaking research in the 1990s, to its popularization by Google's Project Aristotle. Along the way, we discuss common misconceptions, the role of leadership, and how organizations can create a culture where people feel safe to challenge ideas without fear of repercussions.In this episode, we talk about:What is Psychological Safety? – A definition of psychological safety and why it matters for team performance.The Origins of Psychological Safety – How early research by Carl Rogers, Edgar Schein, and Warren Bennis laid the groundwork for modern team dynamics.Amy Edmondson's Breakthrough – How her 1996 study of nursing teams revealed that psychologically safe teams report more mistakes—not because they make more, but because they feel safe admitting them.Google's Project Aristotle – How Google's research found psychological safety to be the #1 factor in team success, and how it fits alongside dependability, clarity, meaning, and impact.The Challenge with "Safe to Challenge" – Why focusing on challenging authority without first fostering psychological safety can create a toxic environment instead of a productive one.Leadership's Role in Psychological Safety – Why leaders must model fallibility, vulnerability, and openness to feedback to create a climate where others feel safe to speak up.Avoiding Common Misconceptions – The pitfalls of treating psychological safety as a shield against performance expectations, a license to criticize without accountability, or a box to check off rather than a culture to build.Practical Tips for Leaders & Teams – How to cultivate psychological safety in your workplace, from building familiarity and social bonds to creating low-risk "practice fields" for feedback and challenge.This episode is packed with history, research, and actionable insights to help leaders and teams build a culture where challenge leads to innovation, not fear.

Part Two of a continuing conversation from almost 10 years ago.  In this captivating episode of the Pre-Accident Podcast, host Todd Conklin welcomes the legendary Edgar Schein and his son Peter for a deep dive into the world of organizational culture and safety. This is part one of a two-part series that promises to challenge your thinking and spark new insights. Listeners are treated to an enlightening conversation with Edgar Schein, a revered figure in the field of organizational development, as he shares his distilled wisdom gathered over decades of academic and consulting work. Schein emphasizes the critical importance of openness and trust in driving both safety and effectiveness within organizations, drawing from his extensive experiences with major corporations and industries. The episode explores the concept of relationship building within management, challenging traditional notions of role-based relationships and advocating for a more personal and trust-based approach. The discussion touches on the nuances of creating psychological safety, the impact of reward systems, and the often overlooked role of middle management in fostering a culture of safety and effectiveness. Join Todd Conklin and his distinguished guests for an engaging conversation that will leave you eagerly anticipating the next installment. Tune in to discover how openness and trust can transform your organization and why these elements are the bedrock of true effectiveness.

In this captivating episode of the Pre-Accident Podcast, host Todd Conklin welcomes the legendary Edgar Schein and his son Peter for a deep dive into the world of organizational culture and safety. This is part one of a two-part series that promises to challenge your thinking and spark new insights. Listeners are treated to an enlightening conversation with Edgar Schein, a revered figure in the field of organizational development, as he shares his distilled wisdom gathered over decades of academic and consulting work. Schein emphasizes the critical importance of openness and trust in driving both safety and effectiveness within organizations, drawing from his extensive experiences with major corporations and industries. The episode explores the concept of relationship building within management, challenging traditional notions of role-based relationships and advocating for a more personal and trust-based approach. The discussion touches on the nuances of creating psychological safety, the impact of reward systems, and the often overlooked role of middle management in fostering a culture of safety and effectiveness. Join Todd Conklin and his distinguished guests for an engaging conversation that will leave you eagerly anticipating the next installment. Tune in to discover how openness and trust can transform your organization and why these elements are the bedrock of true effectiveness.

This week, I talk with Andy Crissinger, a world-class coach and master facilitator who has guided leaders at some of the world's most renowned startups and companies. Andy's journey to coaching is remarkable, weaving through ministry, startup leadership, and eventually finding his calling as a coach. In the first half of our conversation, we explore his personal story, which is deeply relatable and filled with lessons about growth and resilience. In the second half, we dive into a coaching curriculum built around five transformative books, offering practical insights for personal and professional development. These resources can help you grow into the leader, partner, and parent you aspire to be. I loved this conversation with Andy about finding purpose, building trust, and achieving meaningful growth, and I think you will too. Let's get to it! In this episode: (00:00) - Intro (00:05) - Who is Leonard? (03:25) - What music represents for Andy (07:28) - Family, integrity, and sense-making (14:15) - Andy's transition to ministry (17:09) - What Andy learned about community through ministry (23:13) - Coaching vs teaching (30:20) - The journey through infertility (39:16) - How impact and joy of fatherhood (43:15) - Transitioning to coaching (48:00) - Founding Worksong (01:00:23) - Humble Inquiry by Edgar Schein (01:13:11) - Inherited Family Trauma (01:19:42) - Andy's beautiful future (01:22:18) - Who And is becoming (01:24:19) - Trees by Howard Nemerov Get full show notes and links at https://GoodWorkShow.com. Watch the episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@barrettabrooks.

In this episode of the Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast, host Todd Conklin shares his recent experiences at the Winfield Bluegrass Festival, discussing the highs and lows of the event and an insightful conversation on risk and chance. Conklin then dives into an exciting new topic: his latest book, "New Ideas for Old Problems: A Human Performance Approach to Sustainable Change." He outlines the book's unique format, focusing on practical lists and insights from experts like Edgar Schein and Everett Rogers. The episode explores the complexities of organizational change, the importance of continuous improvement, and the role of leadership in fostering sustainable change. Conklin emphasizes the necessity of adapting strategies to different groups within an organization, from innovators to laggards, using Rogers' diffusion of innovation theory. Join Conklin as he offers a sneak peek into his book and discusses the ongoing journey of making meaningful and lasting improvements in organizations.

In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D'Eramo is joined by Dr. Anthony Luévanos for an insightful conversation on humility and its role in effective leadership. Together, they explore how leaders can balance confidence with humility, the importance of self-awareness, and practical steps for fostering a culture of curiosity and growth. Tune in to learn how humility can transform your leadership approach and drive team success.Resources mentioned in this episode:Coaching and EQi 360 servicesHumble Inquiry: The Gentle Art of Asking Instead of Telling - by Edgar Schein (affiliate link)

What can Dr. Deming's famous Red Bead Experiment teach us about quality? What happens when you only focus on the bad, and ignore the good? In this episode Bill Bellows and Andrew Stotz discuss acceptability vs desirability in the context of the Red Beads and a few of the 14 Points for Management. 0:00:02.1 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today I'm continuing my discussions with Bill Bellows who has spent 31 years helping people apply Dr. Deming's ideas to become aware of how their thinking is holding them back from their biggest opportunities. This is episode 5 of the Misunderstanding Quality series and the title is "The Red Bead Experiment." Bill take it away.   0:00:30.4 Bill: Thank you, Andrew, and welcome back. Welcome back to our listeners. One thing I want to say is, one is I listen to every podcast two or three times, listening for, is there a need for clarification, reminding myself, thinking, oh, I should have said this. Or sometimes I say, oh, make sure you make this point, and I do or I don't. And. so one is, nothing comes up from the last one that I thought I missed or mispronounced, but what I do want to clarify is, I'm viewing the target audience as quality professionals in your respective organization or people that want to become a quality professional that are learning, that are trying to apply these ideas in their organization, are fascinated with it. Could be quality professionals who are consultants looking for new awareness of the Deming perspective. So, that's...   0:01:35.8 Bill: And so, some of what I have in mind is, and the examples is, things you can try at home. In fact one thing I encourage... What I encourage my students to do, undergraduate and graduate students, even the clients I consult with, companies I consult with, is develop the ability to explain these ideas, any of them, to people outside of work. So, that could be a spouse, a brother, a sister, a mother, father, son, daughter. And, why outside of work? 'Cause I view that as a safe audience. You say, hey, I just listened to this podcast. Somebody at work may not be as safe. And why are we having this conversation? So, I would say, it could be a college classmate, but one is, try explaining these things to people outside of work and then when whoever that is looks at you and says, I have no idea what you're talking about, or this makes sense, then as you develop that confidence then you're refining your explanations. And that puts you in a better position to apply, to explain it at work.   0:02:54.9 Bill: And why is that important? I'd say there's a lot you can do on your own. I mentioned that a month or so ago, my wife and I were in New England, and I met my doctoral dissertation advisor, who's 86 years old and lives in the middle of nowhere. And one of the things is the wisdom he gave us way back when it was so profound. One of the things he said, we were poor starving college students making seven bucks an hour, working 20 hours during the semester as Research Assistants or 40 hours during the summer. And what a life. Living in... This is poor starving college students. And he would say to us... We'd get together now and then, there'd be a keg on campus and we'd be... Which it wasn't all that often, but anyway, he'd say to us, "These are the best years of your life." [laughter] And we'd look at him like... Now again, I mean, we were... I wouldn't say we were poor starving college students, but I mean, we made ends meet. Now our classmates had gone, undergraduate, gone off to work and they were making real money, and we just stayed in the slum housing and doing... Just living cheap.   0:04:20.3 Bill: Then he says, "These are the best years of your life." We're looking at him like what are you saying? And what he said was, you're working on your research projects either undergrad, masters or PhDs. He said, "You will never have the time you have now to focus on one thing and not be distracted." Now a few of the classmates were married. Most were not married, but he just said this is... I mean, what a dream situation. You're in the laboratory every day. That's all of your focus. Your tuition is covered, blah, blah, blah. But it was just like, yeah, okay. So, when our daughter was in graduate school I shared that with her and she laughed at me. I said, "Allison, these are the best years of your life."   0:05:14.4 AS: If only we listened.   0:05:15.5 Bill: Right. So, that's... And well, I wanted to bring up... But the other thing I want to bring up aside from that story is, he'd say to us, when you go to work, he said trust me. He said "there will be more than enough time to get your job done. You'll have a lot of... You will have time to..." And he said, 'cause he used to brag about he'd be given a task and he can get it done in a fraction of the time that was allocated. And why I mention that is that every job has latitude. And so, to our listeners I would say, think about how to use the latitude you have to practice, to do a small scale Plan-Do-Study-Act thing. Now I really think that's what it's going to come down to is, either experiment at home or whatever, but just practice. And then as Andrew always reminds us at the end of each podcast, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. And that's led to a number of people I'm meeting with once or twice a month.   0:06:31.8 Bill: And they are exactly who I hope to meet, is young quality professionals wanting to know more, to know more, to know more, and they're either in the States or they're living in Europe. All right. So, before we get into the Red Bead Experiment I wanna go back and talk more about acceptability, desirability which will be a focus of the Red Bead Experiment as well. But in the first series we did, there were 23 episodes before we got into the Misunderstanding Quality, and somewhere in there we discussed, you may recall the paradigms of variation. And the paradigms are labeled letters A, B, C, D and E. And we will look at them in this series. So, for those who don't know what I just said, don't worry we'll cover you. And for those who heard it before, okay, we're going to review it. And I mentioned that because paradigm A, the only one I want to talk about tonight, is paradigm A, is does it meet requirements? That's what acceptability is. Is it good? 'Cause we have this binary world in quality. Part of paradigm A is a binary world. It is good or it's bad. We talked about last time is, if it's bad can we salvage it? Which means we can rework it.   0:07:52.3 Bill: Now some of the rework means it could be we can rework it and use it. And in the aerospace industry what happens is, maybe we can't put it in a flight engine. When I was at Rocketdyne maybe it doesn't end up in a Space Shuttle Main Engine, but maybe it ends up in a test engine and a test stand, so it doesn't fly, but we're still going to use it, or it's scrapped. We have to throw it away. But paradigm A is acceptability. Another thing I want to mention is, I was commenting on LinkedIn the last couple of days over process capability metrics. And there's Cp which stands for capability of the process. And, then there's Cpk which is a little bit different. And I don't want to get into those equations tonight, maybe in a future episode. But what I want to say is, if you're looking at a metric such as yield, people say the yield is 100%. What does that mean? It means everything is good. What if the yield is 50%? That means we have to... 50% is good, 50% is bad.   0:09:06.2 Bill: So, yield is an acceptability metric. Why do I say that? Because the measure is percent good. What is a good versus bad? Also say that indices that involve the requirements. And we've talked in the past about a lower requirement and an upper requirement, the idea because we expect variation we give a min and a max. And so, if the equation for the metric you're using includes the tolerance limits, then that's a clue that that's an acceptability-based metric. Now, I don't care whatever else is in the equation, but if those two numbers are in the equation, then the inference is, what you're talking about is a measure, some type of measure of acceptability.   0:10:00.5 AS: Right.   0:10:02.6 Bill: But even if people talk about... If the metric includes the middle of the requirements, well, as soon as you say middle of the requirements, as soon as you say requirements we're back to acceptability. So, these are things to pay attention to is what we're talking about acceptability and desirability, 'cause what we talked about last time was I was trying to give everyday examples of both. And so, acceptability is when people talk about... In fact I listened to about an hour long podcast today on quality management. And one of the comments was, if you follow the steps correctly you get the right result. Well, that's acceptability. Right? If things are right as opposed to wrong. So, again, when you're in this world of good, bad, right versus wrong, that's acceptability.   0:10:58.7 Bill: Again, the reminder is this is not to say acceptability is bad, but it's not desirability. Which one is it? And then what we talked about in the last podcast number four was choose. Do we wanna to focus on acceptability or do we wanna focus on desirability? Where desirability is saying, of all the things that are acceptable, I want this one. I want that orange. I want that parking spot. I wanna date that person of all the ones that meet requirements in my search... You know, in the dating app. And so, that's acceptability. What got me excited by Deming's work in the early '90s was, I was spending a whole lot of time at Rocketdyne focusing on things that were broken. I'm trying to apply Dr. Taguchi's ideas to go, to take something that used to be good but then slipped into bad, and now we're focusing on the bad stuff to make it good. And now the good news is it kept me busy.   0:12:06.5 Bill: I was having a lot of fun. These are high visibility things and the solutions. We got the solutions working with some really wonderful people. But that led me to start asking questions. And I was once at an all-day meeting in Seattle at Boeing. Rocketdyne had been sold to Boeing Commercial Airplane Company. I got invited to a meeting up there. And it was a monthly all-day production meeting. I don't know 50, 60 people in the room. And they asked me to come up. So, I went up. And what time does the meeting start? You know 8 o'clock, 9 o'clock, whatever. And I said you know put me on a few hours into the meeting. Well, why then? Well, I want to listen to the first couple of hours of the meeting. Because in listening, now we're going back to what we talked about with Edgar Schein. And I've developed the ability... You know, I can hear are we focusing on acceptability, desirability, I can hear things you know with a Deming lens. People think of a lens as seeing, well, there's a Deming ear set as well.   0:13:10.7 Bill: And so, I listened for the first two hours and exactly what I expected. So, when I get up to speak at last I said before I got to the slides, I said, "How much time do you spend every day discussing parts that are good, that arrive on time?" And a couple of people in the front row made a circle with their fingers, zero. And I said, so why is that the case? And one of them says, if it's not broken don't fix it. And wherever I go that's what people say. I went to a big Boeing customer doing... Because they were a customer we sold them rocket engines of some size. And I was briefing that slide, had 110 people in the room for a lunchtime presentation. Before I could read the slide, the room erupted in laughter. And so, I share that because if we're spending all this time focusing on the bad but not the good, what is that? That's acceptability. That's what happens, is the economics of acceptability says, only focus on the bad to make it good. But we don't focus on the good because... And that's what we're gonna look at towards the end of tonight is, why don't we focus on the good? And so, next, I had a co-worker at Rocketdyne got a job in Chicago at a toy factory. They bottled soap bubbles. And as a kid's toy with a little wand inside and blowing bubbles and all that.   0:14:56.0 Bill: And she dramatically turned the place around, did some amazing, amazing work. She went from being the senior manufacturing engineer to the, I think plant manager. So, she called me up as she'd been promoted to plant manager. And the question was now that I'm plant manager what should I focus on? So, I said... I had known her for four or five years at that time. I had been mentoring her and the mentoring continued in that capacity. So, I said well, what do you think you should focus on? And the comment was, I think I should focus on all the things that are broken. Well, that's acceptability once again. And I said, so you're focusing on being 100% reactive. And she said, well, yeah. And I said, what you're doing then by focusing on acceptability, you're saying the things that are good I ship, the things that are bad I got to work on. But without understanding that there's actually variation in good... I mean, go back to the Boeing folks when the guy says to me if it's not broken don't fix it. My response to that was, if you use that thinking to drive your car when would you put gas in it? When it runs out. If you use that thinking relative to your plumbing system, your water system at home when would you call the plumber? When it breaks.   0:16:25.5 Bill: When would you go see the doctor? When... So, the downside of not working on things that are good and not paying attention to things that are good is that they may bite you. So, part of the value proposition of acknowledging from a desirability perspective that there's variation in good. If you pay attention to the variation in good there's two upsides. One is, you can prevent bad from happening if that's all you want to do. And two, the focus of a future episode is by focusing on things that are good and paying attention to desirability in the way that Yoshida, Professor Yoshida was talking about. That offers opportunities to do things that you can't do with an acceptability focus, which is improve how things work together as a system. And the idea being when you move from acceptability which is a part focus to desirability, which is a system focus, you can improve the system. Okay, more to follow on that. All right. So, I got some questions for you Andrew, are you ready?   0:17:37.4 AS: Uh-oh. Uh-oh.   0:17:39.8 Bill: So, Dr. Deming had how many points for management?   0:17:42.9 AS: Fourteen.   0:17:46.3 Bill: All right. Okay.   0:17:48.3 AS: I'm being set up here. I just feel it. You start with the easy ones.   0:17:52.8 Bill: All right. And...   0:17:54.3 AS: Listeners, viewers help me out.   0:17:56.9 Bill: All right. And which point, Andrew, was cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality? What number was that?   0:18:09.6 AS: I'm gonna say four or five, or six. I can't remember.   0:18:14.2 Bill: Three. Three.   0:18:14.6 AS: Really? Three. Okay. That was close.   0:18:16.1 Bill: I would not have known. That was number three.   0:18:19.1 AS: Yeah.   0:18:20.1 Bill: And it's followed by Dr. Deming saying, "Eliminate the need for inspection on a mass basis by building quality to the product." So, the first question is what point was it? And again, I had to look it up. I know it's one of the 14. Second question, Andrew, is, if Dr. Deming is saying cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality, would you think of that as an acceptability focus or a desirability focus?   0:18:55.1 AS: I don't know if I can answer that. I mean, I can only think about what he was saying, which was design quality in from the beginning and get everybody involved in quality, not just having an inspector at the end, but I'm not sure.   0:19:11.4 Bill: Yeah. No. And even as I asked the other question, I'm thinking... Well, this is great because if in the audience you think of quality from an acceptability perspective, right?   0:19:24.2 AS: Mm-hmm.   0:19:24.9 Bill: So, if you're working for Boeing, which is all about acceptability or most companies, and you hear step three, then you're thinking, cease dependence on the inspection to achieve..., you're thinking acceptability. If that's what you're used to, if you're used to quality being doesn't meet requirements...   0:19:42.9 AS: Okay.   0:19:43.2 Bill: Then what you're hearing is Deming talking about acceptability. But if you've been exposed to Yoshida's work and Dr. Taguchi's work and you're understanding that within requirements there's variation of things that are good, so it's kind of a trick question. The idea is it depends. Alright.   0:20:02.4 AS: Yep.   0:20:05.5 Bill: I got two other of 14 points to ask you about. Alright. Which of the 14 points is in the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag alone? Instead, minimize total cost. So,  first which point is that?   0:20:26.9 AS: I think it was also... I would say then four.   0:20:32.1 Bill: Yes.   [laughter]   0:20:33.6 AS: Yeah.   0:20:34.1 Bill: Yeah.   [laughter]   0:20:34.5 AS: You'd think I know. I wrote a book about it.   [laughter]   0:20:39.3 Bill: Alright. So, that's point four and...   0:20:42.1 AS: Okay. So, I got... I don't wanna be rated and ranked, but I got one right at least. Okay. Let's keep going.   0:20:49.1 Bill: Okay. And, so, is that acceptability or desirability? Let's say this. Is awarding business on price tag acceptability or desirability?   0:21:02.1 AS: Probably acceptability.   0:21:04.6 Bill: Yeah. 'Cause then you're saying...   0:21:06.5 AS: Can you hit this number? It's okay.   0:21:11.2 Bill: Yeah. Or you contact your insurance company and you say, I'm looking for a heart surgeon, and you say, and I found one, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they call you up and say, yes, that person is a heart surgeon, but we prefer you use this one. [chuckle] What's the chance they're thinking about a cheaper option? Right? Alright? So, you're looking at from desirability perspective...   0:21:38.5 AS: This guy's really cheap on kidneys.   0:21:40.7 Bill: Right? And so you're thinking you've done a bunch of references. You've asked your friends. And why are you asking? Because all the doctors out there that meet requirements, you're blindly saying, I'll take any one. That's acceptability. And you're saying, I want this one. That's desirability. But the insurance company says, no. We consider them all to be the same in our policy. That's acceptability. Alright. Okay. And here's the last point we're gonna look at tonight. Which of the 14 points is "improve constantly and forever the system of production and service to improve quality and productivity and thus constantly decrease cost"?   0:22:23.5 AS: Isn't that number one? Constancy of... That's...   0:22:28.0 Bill: That's constancy of purpose. That's number one.   0:22:28.8 AS: Okay. Constancy of purpose. So, improve... Don't know. No. No.   0:22:39.4 Bill: That's number 5.   0:22:40.5 AS: Okay. Five.   0:22:44.5 Bill: And I was looking at, so I know those are three and one, and I thought, oh, that's three, four, and five. Alright. So, what I wanna do there is, we're gonna look at that a little bit later. So, I don't wanna ask you about acceptability, desirability, but I just wanna lay that on on the table. Alright. So, now we're gonna look at what Dr. Deming referred to as his chain reaction. The Deming Chain Reaction. Alright. So, what do you remember about the Deming chain reaction? It wasn't a motorcycle chain or a bicycle chain, right? What did Dr. Deming call his chain reaction?   0:23:31.3 AS: I can't... I mean, I'm thinking of the flowchart.   0:23:34.9 Bill: Yeah. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. The chain reaction...   0:23:36.5 AS: But that I can't remember.   0:23:39.6 Bill: And this is likely Out of the Crisis. The Deming chain reaction is, "if you improve quality, you will reduce scrap and rework, thereby reduce costs." And then he goes on to, by reducing costs, you can increase sales and expand the market. That's the chain reaction.   0:24:01.9 AS: Yeah.   0:24:02.2 Bill: So, when I ask students, again, in my either graduate, undergraduate classes is, talk about the Deming Chain Reaction, then I say, is the Deming Chain Reaction... Within the Deming Chain Reaction, Deming says, if you improve quality, reduce scrap and rework, lower cost, is that explanation of quality, acceptability, or desirability?   0:24:31.9 AS: I don't know. I'm fearful to answer nowadays because I'm not getting these right.   0:24:37.4 Bill: No. You are. You're on a roll. [chuckle] Again, the Deming Chain Reaction, if we improve quality, we reduce scrap and rework, thereby lower the cost thereby sell more and expand the market.   0:24:52.2 AS: I would say that's desirability.   0:24:56.1 Bill: Okay. One more time. If we improve quality, we reduce scrap and rework.   0:25:03.2 AS: Yep.   0:25:04.3 Bill: So, the clue is scrap. Is scrap something we talk about with acceptability or desirability?   0:25:12.1 AS: That's acceptability.   0:25:14.1 Bill: And rework.   0:25:18.2 AS: Well, we're trying to make it acceptable.   0:25:20.1 Bill: Exactly. And the reason I point that out is, I'm not sure... And I think we talked last time about things we agree with Deming or disagree with Deming. I'm not a big fan of the Deming Chain Reaction because I think... Again, if I'm in the audience and I'm working for a company that defines quality and in terms of acceptability, and he says to me, if you improve quality, reduce scrap and rework, that's what I'm used to. And my concern is, in other ways he's explaining quality in terms of constantly improving. Well, how can you constantly improve quality once you get to 100% yield? So. if all the product is good, which is acceptability, if there's no scrap and no rework, can you improve quality? Not if you're focusing on acceptability. And so, what I'm saying there is, that if Dr. Deming is in one hand defining the chain reaction and using the term quality in reference to scrap and rework, then he's projecting quality as acceptability. But if he's talking about improving constantly and forever, and then we get into, can you improve the quality forever? That's what he's saying.   0:26:49.1 Bill: What if you get to 100% yield, which is the maximum value of acceptability? Well, only if you shift to desirability can you improve forever quality, if you think it's worthwhile to do. So, that's why I wanted to go back and look at those things. One is revisit acceptability, desirability, and point out what I think are some opportunities for confusion in trying to explain Deming's work. Alright. Now we'll talk about the Red Bead experiment, which is, the very first time... I remember reading about it in the earliest books I read. I think, who is it that wrote the first books on Deming management, Deming management? She's a...   0:27:42.8 AS: Killian?   0:27:44.3 Bill: No, no, no. Cecilia Killian was Deming's admin.   0:27:48.9 AS: Mary?   0:27:50.5 Bill: Yeah. Mary Walton.   0:27:51.6 AS: Mary Walton.   0:27:52.5 Bill: Mary Walton. I remember reading a Mary Walton's book, that's when I first got exposed to this Red Bead experiment. So, The Deming Institute has a dedicated webpage, so, if you go to deming.org, or just do a Google search for deming.org Red Bead experiment, it's one of the most popular pages. I think that might be the second most popular, most visited page past the 14 Points. In there you can find short videos. There are longer videos, but there's enough on there to follow along with what I want to explain. So, Dr. Deming and the Red Bead experiment would take from the audience, and it could be four willing workers, six willing workers. He'd be the manager of the White Bead Company, and he would explain to them, he would share with them. He had a bowl, and in the bowl were 5,000 beads, maybe an eighth of an inch in diameter, small plastic beads, and there'd be 5,000 in the bowl, 4,000 white, 1,000 red.   0:29:00.6 Bill: And then there was a paddle, and the paddle could be roughly two inches by four inches, and the paddle had a little handle, and it had holes in it. So, the instructions he would provide to the willing workers, the production workers, is to take this paddle at a given angle, slide it in flat into the bowl, even the back of the beads. The beads are in one container, they get poured into another container.   0:29:27.7 AS: In a pan.   0:29:28.1 Bill: It's a mixing process, and then he pours them back in. So, just pour them from one to the other, and he would be very persnickety on pour at 45 degrees, tip from the corner. You pour back and forth, put the paddle in, and you'd end up with 50 of the beads would fill the paddle, and then you'd go to the inspector number one. And the inspector number one would count how many red beads, which is not what the customer wants. What the customer wants is white beads, but the raw material includes both. So, you go to inspector one, and they may count five beads. You go to inspector number two, and they quietly see five. The numbers get written down. Ideally, they're the same. And then you go to the, I think, the master inspector, and they say, five beads, and then "dismissed." And then write the five on a flip chart, and then the next person comes and does it, and the next person comes and does it. So, all six come up and draw beads, and then we count the number of red ones. The number of red ones go into this big table. Next thing you know we've done this over four different days. I've done this. This could take an hour. And even when you watch the videos, there's a fast forwarding.   0:31:00.1 Bill: I've done the Red Bead experiment, I think, just once, and I did it with a former student, which worked out really well, 'cause there was a lot of dead time, and the audience was watching, and so I was able to get conversation going with her. So, for those wanting to do this, boy, you've got to be pretty good on your feet to keep the audience entertained. To get to the point where you've got a table on the whiteboard, or on the flip chart, and on the table are the six willing workers on the left-hand side, and then day by day the red beads... Looking at the number of red beads. So, what are the red beads? Well, the red beads are not what the customer wants. What the customer wants are white beads, but in the production process, because the raw material includes red, well, then the red ends up in the output. So, I ask people, so, if the white beads are what the customer wants, what are the red beads? And typically, people say those are the defective, defects, scrap.   0:32:03.2 Bill: And, so now you get into this model is based on acceptability. The beads are either good, white, or bad, red. And so I would ask the students in class, in a work setting, what might the red beads be? I, in fact, asked our daughter. She said, is just moving from being a junior high school English teacher to a senior high school English teacher. Her undergraduate degree is from Cal State Long Beach.   0:32:34.3 AS: There you go.   0:32:34.3 Bill: So, her first day of school was today. She's also the varsity swim coach, which is way, way cool. Mom and dad are proud of her. So, I remember asking her a few years ago. So, I said, Allison, what are the red beads in the classroom? She said, well, the stapler doesn't work. The door doesn't close. The projector screen doesn't come down. The computer doesn't work. These are red beads in the classroom. So, I said, okay, Allison. What are the white beads?   0:33:01.1 Bill: Geez. So, we get so used to talking about the red beads are the defects or things that... Well, the white beads, by comparison, are the things that are good. So, I said, Allison, if the computer works, that's a white bead. If the door closes, that's a white bead. If you can close the window, that's a white bead. If you can pull down the screen, that's a white bead. So, the red beads are the things around us that are defects, broken, and the white beads are the others. And so, I wanna throw that out to do some stage setting. And ideally, this is a review for our listeners, and if not, you've gotta go watch as many videos as you can in The Deming Institute website. There's a lot of great content there. Watching Dr. Deming do this is pretty cool.   0:33:49.0 AS: He's a funny guy.   0:33:51.6 Bill: And I was very fortunate to be in Dr. Deming's very last four-day seminar. I did not participate in The Red Bead Experiment. I let somebody else do that, but it was classic. Well, the next thing I wanna get into is, and I would say to audiences many times, so we know... Well, a couple things. It's so easy to look at that data on a spreadsheet and say, Jill's the best performer. She has the minimum number of red beads. So, on the one hand, we can look day by day, and it could be Jill's number started off low. And we gave her an award, and then it went high, and then we started blaming her. So, there's variation in the number of beads, worker to worker and day to day. So, a given worker, their scores go up and down. So, that's called variation.   0:34:43.4 Bill: And so one of the aspects of the System of Profound Knowledge, which we haven't talked about too much, but ideally our listeners know Dr. Deming was really big about the value proposition of understanding variation. So, what Dr. Deming would talk about in his four-day seminars, and ideally anybody presenting this, is you take the data, you draw the usual conclusions. We're looking at data from an acceptability perspective. We look at the spreadsheet, and then voila, we turn it into a run chart and look at that data over time, calculate control limits, and then find that all the data is within the control limits and draw the conclusion that the process is in control. And then you move from in a non-Deming environment, looking at this data point versus this data point and drawing these conclusions that the white... The number of red beads is due to the workers.   0:35:33.7 Bill: So, the punch lines you'll find at Deming Institute webpage is that the workers are trying as best they can, that the red beads are caused not by the workers taken separately, but by the system, which includes the workers. A lot of great learning there. And a very significant piece is, in a Deming environment, where Deming's coming from is, again, this is before we go further in this in future sessions is, he's proposing that the majority of what goes on in the system relative to the performance of anything you measure is coming from the system. And if that is really, really understood, then you're hard pressed to blame people in sales for lousy sales or dips in sales or you look at grades of students in a classroom. So, for people looking at Dr. Deming's ideas, perhaps for the first time, realize that what he's talking about is coming from The Red Bead Experiment is a great eye opener for this is that, let's stop blaming the workers for the production issues and step back and look at our procurement system.   0:36:39.6 Bill: Do we have a procurement system where we're buying on price tag? If you buy on price tag, you end up with buying a lot of red beads. So, one aspect I wanna leave our listeners with today is, as you're studying this, realize there's a psychology aspect to The Red Bead Experiment. Not only the idea that there's variation up and down, but what are the implications of realizing that we can't be blaming the workers for the behavior of the system. The system includes the workers, but it also includes things that are well beyond their control. Well, where I wanna go next with this and then we'll next time get in and go further is, in appreciation of point five, "improve constantly forever the system," what I would ask audience is, so we know the red beads are caused by the system. We know the number of white beads goes up and down. But if we were to improve the system by not buying red beads or pre-sorting them out and get fewer and fewer red beads in there, then we get to the point that all the beads are white, perhaps. We have continuous improvement.   0:37:47.2 Bill: We end up with a 100% yield. Well, then we get into, again, and I've kind of set the stage in prior comments, what I would ask people is, what Dr. Deming's talking about trying to achieve zero red beads everywhere in the organization? Is that what we're striving for with the Deming philosophy, is to go around the organization, I want every single process to produce no red beads to make it to a 100% white beads? And if that's what Dr. Deming is talking about, then what does point five mean about continuously improving? Now we get into what I mentioned earlier is, you can improve the speed of operation to produce more white beads, so, we can do them faster, we can do them cheaper, but can we improve the quality of the white beads under that model? And the answer is no, because acceptability stops at a 100%. So, what we'll look at next time is, if you look at the beads and look closely, you'll see they have different diameters, different weights. They're not exactly the same color white. So, what is that Andrew? That's called variation.   0:39:00.9 Bill: And now it brings us back to desirability. So, what I encourage people to do, most of the times I see people presenting The Red Bead Experiment, they present it from an acceptability perspective. That's the starting point. But what I encourage our listeners to do is go through all that, and this becomes a great opportunity to move your audiences from acceptability focus to desirability by talking about the inherent variation in those beads. Again, we'll talk about the value proposition economically in future sessions, as well as the other paradigms of variation before we get there. So, that's what I wanna cover.   0:39:43.2 AS: Wow. Bill, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for this discussion. And for listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. If you wanna keep in touch with Bill, just find him on LinkedIn, and this is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. It never gets old. "People are entitled to joy in work."

Continuing their discussion from part 3 of this series, Bill Bellows and Andrew Stotz talk more about acceptability versus desirability. In this episode, the discussion focuses on how you might choose between the two. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:00.0 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with Bill Bellows, who has spent 31 years helping people apply Dr. Deming's ideas to become aware of how their thinking is holding them back from their biggest opportunities. Today is Episode 4 of the Misunderstanding Quality Series, and the title is Quality, Mind the Choices. Bill, take it away.   0:00:31.3 Bill Bellows: All right, Andrew, welcome. So podcast three, I think the title was Acceptability and Desirability. And one correction there, when I went back and looked at the transcript the concept of... At least the first person I heard tie together acceptability, desirability, at least in the Deming community, was a professor, Yoshida, Y-O-S-H-I-D-A. He was a PhD student of Dr. Deming, I believe at NYU but I mispronounced or misspelled his first name. I thought I've heard people refer to him as Kauro, perhaps spelled K-A-U-R-O, maybe that's his nickname, and maybe I just didn't remember properly but his proper first name is Kosaku, K-O-S-A-K-U and he at one point in time was in Greater Los Angeles at Cal State Dominguez Hills. And then I think sometime in the mid '90s, early '90s, last I heard he moved to Japan.   0:01:51.1 BB: I've never met him. I've watched videos of him, there's a classic presentation. I don't know if it's got, it might be online someplace of he did a guest lecture. There was a... Dr. Deming was speaking in Southern California and needed an emergency surgery, had a pacemaker put in, so this would've been '92 timeframe. And Professor Yoshida was called in to give a guest lecture. And that ended up being something that I think was sold eventually. The video, the lecture was sold by Claire Crawford Mason and so he is... I don't know how much of that is online, but anyways.   0:02:38.4 AS: Is Kauro, Kauro wasn't that the name of Kauro Ishikawa?   0:02:43.7 BB: That may be where I... Yes that was a Kauro. There's two Ishikawas. There's a father and the son and I... So I'm not sure if Kauro was the father or the son, but anyway correction there. In the first series we did, going back to '23, 2023, I mentioned the name Edgar Schein, but I don't believe I've mentioned his name in this series. So I wanted to throw that, introduce that in this series today and give some background on him for those who have not heard his name or not aware, did not listen to the first series and Edgar Schein, who passed away January of this year. He was an organizational theorist, organizational psychologist, spent the greater part of his career at MIT. And one of the concepts I really like about what he talked about is looking at an organization in terms of its artifacts. So if you walk around an organization, what do you see? What are the artifacts? That could be the colors, it could be the artwork on the wall, but the physical aspect of the organization Schein referred to as the artifacts. And what he also talked about is if you dig beneath the artifacts, they come from a set of beliefs, and then the beliefs come from a set of values.   0:04:23.9 BB: And again, the first series we did, I talked about Red Pen and Blue Pen Companies, and Me and We Organizations, and Last Straw and All Straw organizations. And those titles should make it easy for our listeners who are not aware to go back and find those. And what I talked about is, this imaginary trip report, if you visited a Deming organization, if we could think in terms of two simple organizations, a Deming organization, and a non-Deming organization in this very simple black and white model. And I had people think about the physical aspects of both, if they were to go visit both. What I then followed up on in our conversation is what you see physically comes from a set of beliefs. Now, they may not be articulated beliefs, what Schein would call espoused beliefs. And then you have what they really believe and I forget the term, I use this for that, but it comes from a set... But anyway, the physical comes from the beliefs, the beliefs come from the values.   0:05:39.0 BB: And part of the reason I bring that up for our listeners, and I'm thinking in terms of the people that have a responsibility in their respective organizations. They could be consultants, internal consultants, working in quality likely, given the focus of this series. First of all, you have to start where you are. But even added on, included in start where you are, is you have to start where your management is. So, if your management is tasking you with an improving scrap and rework, then that's what you better be talking about. Now, you don't have to be guiding your actions based on acceptability because the other aspect is scrap and rework are typically associated... Well, not typically, they are associated with acceptability. The lack of acceptability, acceptability is the idea that this is good, it is acceptable, it meets the requirements, defines...the quality requirements that are defined.   0:06:52.0 BB: If it's good, it is acceptable, if it's bad. There's two categories of bad, bad could be I have to throw it away, that's scrap, which means I can't recover it or rework, which means I can do something with it and perhaps salvage it. And so if your management is tasking you with improving scrap and rework, then first of all, where they're coming from, quite naturally, is acceptability. And why do I say that? Because everywhere I've gone, that is the deepest foundation of quality in every organization I've ever met, worked with, I have met people that work from whether it could be... Whether it's clients that I've worked with, whether it's students, my university classes. Acceptability, scrap, and rework, all go together. And, so if that's where your management is, then they're asking you to focus on improving acceptability.   0:08:05.6 BB: But, you may find it invaluable to shift your focus to desirability to improve acceptability. And that will be a focus, well I get into some of that tonight and others or today, and then on a future podcast later. But, I remember once upon a time at Rocketdyne, the executives were, the VP of Quality was task master asking for improvements to scrap and rework and also things called process capability indices, Cp's and Cpk's. And if you've heard of a Cp or a Cpk, great, if you haven't all I could say is I find them dangerous. I find them, well I say they're all about acceptability. And what makes it, reason I would encourage people to stay away from them because they appear to be desirability, but they're really acceptability.   0:09:15.7 BB: We'll save that for later. But anyway you have to start where they are. So if people are asking for improvements in scrap and rework, then, instead of fighting them, you go with it. And then what we'll be talking about tonight is, is it worthwhile to shift? Well, what does it mean to improve acceptability and the difference between acceptability and desirability? And relative to the title tonight, Mind the Choices is being aware that there's a place for acceptability and there's a place for desirability. And going back to Yoshida in episode three, what I was referring to is, in presentations he was doing from the early '90s, maybe even going back to the '80s, he talked about Japanese companies are about desirability. So, he presented this model of acceptability and desirability. And then, his explanation of what makes Japanese companies, again, back in the '80s, Japanese companies were viewed as those setting the quality standards.   0:10:20.5 BB: And, he was trying to say that the way they're doing that is that they don't rely on acceptability as other companies in other countries do. They have a higher standard. And that's what I wanted to introduce in our last episode, Episode 3. And, what I wanted to do tonight in this Episode 4, is to put some, add some more to that. But, also reinforce I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with acceptability, it's a question of what does the organization need at that point of time? And, really it has to do with... Really, it has to do with how big a system you wanna look at. So if you're looking at something in isolation, which is, I mean, when you look at something and saying it's good or bad, that is the epitome of looking at something in isolation.   0:11:17.5 BB: You're looking at a pen and saying it's good. You're looking at the diameter of a hole and saying it's good. That is not looking at what goes in the hole, that is not looking at how the pen is being used. So by definition, that's what Ackoff would call analysis, which is looking inward. It's not what Ackoff would call synthesis, which is looking outward. And how far outward you look is all according... I mean you could look, it comes down to how big is the system. And I wanna introduce the name Shel Rovin, Sheldon was his full name. Shel was his nickname. I met Shel through Russ Ackoff in 2006. Shel was, he was in charge of the Chief Nursing Officer program, which was a two-week immersion program at the University of Pennsylvania.   0:12:14.5 BB: And he was doing that in the, 2003, 4, 5, timeframe when I met him. And Shel was a dentist by background. He was Dean of the School of Dentistry at University of Kentucky and University of Washington. And I met him through Russ and invited him to Rocketdyne on numerous occasions. And Shel spoke about relative to looking at a system, 'cause people talk about, well "Andrew, we've gotta look at the whole system," but how big is the system? And, so people say, well, systems thinkers look at the whole system. Well, how big is that? Is that 1,000 foot view? And people say, oh no, Bill, it's bigger than that. Is it a 10,000 foot view? Is it... How big is the system? Well, Shel's perspective, and the word I wanna introduce from Shel is relative to systems is boundarylessness.   0:13:12.7 BB: Say that a few times fast. 'Cause systems have no boundaries. So I'm sure our listeners... I'm sure you have heard, I don't if our listeners have all heard, Dr. Deming would say to executives, does your system include the future? He used to ask questions such as what business are you in? What business will you be in five years from now, 10 years from now? Well, why not 15 years from now? Why not 25 years from now? Native American Indians, associated with Native American Indians is the idea of looking at the seventh generation after you when you're making choices. And so what I would ask people is, well, why seven? Why not eight? Why not nine? Why not 10? I mean, within an organization, we could be working with our supplier to try to get across these quality ideas to our suppliers.   0:14:05.5 BB: Well, that's looking at the system. Well, wait a minute. Do our suppliers have suppliers? Yes. Do their suppliers have suppliers? And so relative to boundarylessness is this idea is when people start talking about the whole system, I don't know what "whole" means. What I'd rather look at is what size system are we looking at? That's a choice. That's a choice. So we could decide to look at our suppliers. We're gonna go one step, we're gonna look at procurement. Who do we buy from? Now, we may educate them and give them the responsibility of looking at their suppliers on... But that would be a way of managing quality. Likewise, we can look at the impact of our work on our customer and give them heads up as to how to look at the impact of their work on their customers. But that's looking at the system in an X, Y, Z, physical coordinate, add onto that, the time dimension. And so, again, all I wanna throw out there is that when it comes to making choices on acceptability, desirability, a lot of it has to do with how big is the system that we're looking at. Some everyday examples of acceptability.   0:15:23.5 BB: Again and what I wanna get across is, in part the difference to help people make choices. And so when we were on a vacation in Europe recently, I took a number of photos of people making choices. And,` when I travel, anywhere I travel, especially out of the country, I love walking into supermarkets just to see what they sell that perhaps is not sold in the States or in California. I know there are things you can't find in California that you can find on the East Coast. That's one thing. But I like going into supermarkets just to see what products are there. I mean, you can go to England and find in the refrigerator section, hard cider, apple cider, you know, alcoholic cider that I got exposed to going to a Deming conference in 2000. I've become a fan of it ever since. Well, in the States it's pretty hard to find hard cider, period. You go to England and you'll find, a dozen different brands and each brand may have a number of different types.   0:16:44.9 BB: And so that's, but anyway, relative to that when you walk into a supermarket, if you're looking at canned goods, or just look, well, looking at cider, we can look at this cider versus that cider. We treat a can as a can, whether it's buying tomato soup or cider, we treat all those cans as interchangeable, interchangeable parts. But when we go to into the bakery section, that's where I was taking photos in Amsterdam and I was watching people sort through the pastries. And yet what was laid out were a bunch of pastries of the same style. And yet people were, I want this one, I want that one.   0:17:26.0 BB: Well, part of acceptability is treating all those pastries as the same as we would treat all those cans of tomato soup as the same. Now relative to tomato soup I know you live with your mother, and I'm willing to bet your mom, early, early on when she took you to the supermarket, taught you how to buy canned goods, right? And she says "Andrew when you buy a can of something you pick it up, you're looking for dents," right?   0:17:55.1 AS: Mm.   0:17:56.0 BB: Because if it's dented, that's bad. And if it's not dented, that's good. I know my mother taught me that. So I know when it comes to buying canned good we look for dents. If dented, that's bad. If it's not dented, it's acceptable. But I don't see people sorting between cans of tomato soup made by the same manufacturer. They're just, we treat it as they're acceptable. Acceptable implies either one, the differences don't matter or I don't see differences.   0:18:33.0 BB: Desirability is, you wanna see a great example of desirability, go to the produce section and again, either watch people sort through pastries that are all acceptable, and yet they're looking for the biggest one, or... And when it comes to fruit, we're looking for the ripest banana, or maybe we're looking for bananas that are green because we're not gonna use them for a while. So acceptability, again, I'm trying to give everyday examples of acceptability is going in and saying, looking at all the fruit there, and just taking five peppers, whatever it is, and throwing them in the bag and saying, I need five 'cause my spouse said, go get five. And I throw them in the bag. And it could be time-wise, I don't have time to sort through them, or I quite frankly don't care that they're different. That's acceptability. So acceptability is either acknowledging they're different and saying, I don't care. Or...   0:19:29.6 AS: Seeing them as the same.   0:19:32.4 BB: Or pretending they're all the same. And I had a guy in class years ago, and I was asking about buying fruit and I was trying to use the example of we go into the supermarket. We sort through the oranges looking for the ripest one, and this guy says, well, I don't sort through the oranges. I said, well, how do you buy the oranges? I buy them by the bag. I said, do you sort between the bags? He says, no, I don't sort and his arms were crossed. I don't sort, I don't sort. So then I noticed that he had a ring on his left hand, a wedding ring on his left hand. So I said, I see you're wearing a wedding ring. And he said, yep. I said, did you sort?   0:20:15.2 AS: I don't sort.   0:20:15.3 BB: Meaning... I don't sort. And so when you're looking at things that meet all the requirements and saying there is no variation or the variation doesn't matter, that's acceptability, Andrew. When you look at all the things that meet requirements and you see them as being different and saying, I want this one, that's desirability. And so that could be, when it comes to selecting a spouse, when it comes to selecting an orange, when it comes to selecting a parking spot, in a university, you're looking for the, an ideal, the best professor for Thermodynamics II, and there's 10 professors the university says are acceptable. And you talk to classmates and you find out, oh, no, no, no, stay away from that one. What are you doing? You're sorting amongst things that meet requirements, that are acceptable and saying, that's not good enough for me in that situation.   0:21:17.2 BB: Well, what I wanna say then added to that is, this is not to say desirability is better than acceptability. It really comes down to is desirability worth the effort? Because when it comes to desirability, I am looking beyond, I'm looking at a bigger system. So I'm looking at the fruit in terms of how I'm using it. If I'm aware of that, I'm looking at the parking spots in terms of: I'm gonna be in the store for an hour and I want the most shade, or these parking spots have a little bit different distances between cars, and I want a spot with a little bit more width so somebody doesn't ding my car. So what I'm hoping is with these examples, people can appreciate that every day we make choices between acceptability and desirability.   0:22:11.3 BB: Every day we're making a decision based on saying, this is okay, code word for acceptable, or I'll take that one, that's desirability.   0:22:27.6 AS: That's quite a breakdown.   0:22:28.1 BB: Well, and the idea being... The other aspect of it is when you're choosing to say, I want... When you decide that acceptability is not worthwhile, my proposal it's because you're looking at a bigger system. You've got a bigger system in mind. You're not looking at that fruit in isolation. You are somehow saying, there's something about how I plan to use that, which is the reason for this decision. And then it gets into how big is the system that you're looking at? Are you looking at the person downstream of you at work, which that could be an internal customer. People used to use those terms. Are you looking at the person after them, two down from them, three down from them? And that gets into a choice. So what I would tell the folks I was mentoring at Rocketdyne is that they were designing things or going to see how they were used. And I'd say, first of all, nothing requires you to go see how that's used. Your job as a designer, whatever it is in engineering you design it, you give it to manufacturing. But you don't have to go downstairs and see how they're using it.   0:23:47.5 BB: I said, but if you do, you might learn a lot. And then they might say, "well, so I should go talk to the person who's first using it." Well that might be helpful. And then what about the person after that? Well, that might be helpful. And then what about the person after that? Well, that might be helpful. And I was trying to get across to them, we hire really bright people and if we just turn you down to don't look beyond, just deliver the thing, complete those drawings, do whatever it is, pass it to the next person. I said, the system may not require you to go look to see how it's used.   0:24:31.9 BB: But what Dr. Deming is proposing is, the better you understand how it's used, the better you can serve the system. But then you get into the question of how big is the system that you want to be thinking about? And there I would tell them that there's no right answer. I mean, you wanna be and this is what I would tell them is we hire really bright people and then we condition you to believe that it doesn't matter. What I'm proposing guided by Dr. Deming is that there's a possibility that it matters anywhere from a little to a lot, but you won't know unless you go look.   0:25:12.2 AS: Yeah. It's funny.   0:25:12.3 BB: And so what I wanna get... Go ahead Andrew.   0:25:14.4 AS: When I was a supervisor at Pepsi in Los Angeles at our Torrance factory, they asked me to help... Could I figure out how to quicken the pace with which we got 80 trucks or 100 trucks out the gate every morning because it mattered. If you got trucks out an hour late on the LA freeways, now you have overtime and all kinds of trouble. So, what I did is I climbed up... At 4:00 AM I climbed up on top of a building, one of our buildings.   0:25:54.1 BB: Wow.   0:25:54.9 AS: And I had a clipboard, which I always have. I have extra clipboards always with me, here's one right here. And I had paper and then I just observed, and I took a lot of notes. And what I was seeing was all these drivers were, they were checking their trucks and they were spending a lot of time with their trucks. So, after I observed it that morning, the next morning I went down and went around and I asked them, what are you doing? And they said, well I'm checking that the quantity that's on the paper is the quantity that's on the truck. And I said, how could that not be? And they said, the loaders at night don't fill it up right. So, the next night I went and talked to the loaders and I said, drivers are saying that you guys are making errors.   0:26:40.4 AS: No, we're not making any errors. Okay. So, now I gotta dig deeper into the loaders. And then I start to see, okay, the loaders are making errors. So, I went and talked to one loader and said, why are you making this error? He said, well, the production are supposed to put this particular Pepsi item in this spot. But they didn't, they put it in another and I got confused, but it's just 'cause it's normally always there. So, I go to talk to the manufacturer, hey guys come on, why did you put that stuff in the wrong spot? He said, well, sales told us to produce so much that we were overloaded. We didn't have any place to put all of this products. So, we had to basically put it anywhere we could as it's racing off the line and on and on.   0:27:27.9 AS: And then you start to realize like, okay, the system is bigger. Now I went and focused on the loaders and said, how do we make sure that when the loaders load that we can lock the truck and then tell the drivers, you must not open this truck. How do we build the trust between the loaders and the drivers that they're loaded correctly and that they can go, because the drivers don't want to get to San Bernardino or wherever they're going and find out, oh, I don't have what this particular customer wanted and it's supposed to be on here. So that's just a little bit of a picture of kind of a very narrow start that starts to bring in more of the system.   0:28:06.8 BB: Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a brilliant example. And also what you're talking about is a term we used the first series, which is the value of synchronicity. That those handoffs are smooth. And they disrupt...   0:28:26.7 AS: I love that word handoffs, by the way. I was just talking with a client of mine. We were talking about the core processes of the business. And I just now realize that what I was missing and what we were missing in our discussion was how do we make sure that the handoffs work.   0:28:43.6 BB: Well, then the other thing, again a concept you may recall from the first series is, I liken it... I think in terms of two types of handoffs. And, actually, I think in one of the first, maybe in the second episode we talked about this, is associated with acceptability. When I hand off to you something, my report, whatever it is I'm assigned to delivered to Andrew by 5 o'clock tomorrow, you look at it, you inspect it, and you're making sure before you accept it that it is acceptable, that it has all the content. And, if anything's missing a figure, a graph, a label, you send it back to me and then I go through and massage it and then send it off to you. And, part of acceptability is when you say, that's good, then the handoff we're talking about is physical.   0:29:51.6 BB: Right. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a physical handoff. I give it to you physically. And what you may recall me mentioning, I think, again likely episode 2, podcast 2 of this series is I would demonstrate this with people in the class. And I would say, if, if what I give you is not acceptable, what do you do? You give it back to me and you say it's incomplete. And then I go through, massage it. If I now give it to you and all the requirements have been met, it's acceptable. Now what happens? What do you say? And I would kid them and so now you say, thank you. But what I'd also point out is that part of acceptability in a non-Deming organization is the handoff is physical and mental. I mean, physical is: It is yours, not mine.   0:30:38.5 BB: Mental is that if you have trouble with how that fits into what you are doing with it, because that report does not exist in isolation, you're doing something with it. Right. So you're doing your things with it. Now we're looking at the system. And if in the system of you're using it, you have an issue and you come back to me, in non-Deming environment, acceptability is my way of saying "Andrew I'm not sure why we're having this conversation because what I gave you is acceptable." But in a Deming organization, the handoff is physical, but not mental. What does that mean? It means, I'm willing to learn from what you just said and the issues you're having. And now I'm beginning to wonder, there's two possibilities. Either one, what I gave you is not acceptable. There's something wrong with the inspection.   0:31:34.3 BB: Or two, what's missing is desirability, that there's some... What I give you is acceptable, but there's something about how it's, it's um, there's a degree of acceptability, and so instead of viewing it as it's good or it's bad, black and white. Now we're saying there's degrees of good. Desirability is degrees of good. And, so in a Deming environment, when I hand off to you and you have an issue with it, you come back the next day and say, "Bill, somehow this didn't get caught in the control chart." And I said, "well, let me take a look at it," and I may find there was something wrong with the inspection, or I may find that there's a degree of good I'm not giving you that I need to be giving you. So, that can either be an acceptability issue or a desirability issue. I'm willing to have that conversation with you in a Deming environment. So, in a Deming environment, the handoff is physical but not mental. And the learning, as you're demonstrating, the learning that comes from the ability to have those conversations, improves the system. That's a lot more work.   0:32:53.8 AS: So, if you were to sum it up, was that the sum up or would you add anything else to your summation of what you want people to take away from this discussion?   0:33:05.6 BB: Yeah, that's it. I'd like to say one is that there's, acceptability is fine. Choose acceptability, if that's all the situation demands then you've chosen that. But pay attention to how it's used, pay attention to the ramifications of that decision, which may show up an hour from now, may not show up until a year from now. And, the possibility that hiccup a year from now could be either it wasn't acceptable, in which case there's an inspection issue or it was acceptable, which means there's a degree of good, which means it's a desirability issue. And, that gets us into future conversations, talking about degrees of good and the whole idea of variation in things that are good. That's desirability, variation in things that are good.   0:33:57.6 AS: All right. Bill, on behalf of everyone at T      he Deming Institute, I want to thank you again for this discussion. And for listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. And if you wanna keep in touch with Bill, just find him on LinkedIn. He responds. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. "People are entitled to joy in work."

"Vous vous sentez épuisé·e dans votre vie professionnelle et vous ne savez plus ce qui vous motive réellement ?"Pour ce nouvel épisode du podcast, nous écoutons Amélie.Elle explore le concept des dynamiques de vie développé par Edgar Schein, pour mieux comprendre nos besoins, motivations et aspirations. Identifier ces dynamiques de vie nous aidera à choisir une vie professionnelle alignée avec nos motivations.Par exemple, une personne valorisant l'autonomie s'épanouira dans un rôle offrant une grande liberté d'action, tandis que quelqu'un priorisant la sécurité cherchera un environnement de travail stable.Et vous, quelles sont vos dynamiques de vie ?

BONUS: Agile Coaching With a Philosophical Twist, Exploring Michel Foucault's Work, The Panopticon, and Other Systems of Control With Michelle Pauk In this episode, with Michelle Pauk - an Agile Coach - we explore what we can learn from philosophy, and Michel Foucault's work on systems of power and discourse. Learn more about the systems we need to adapt to, and even transform. From the Panopticon, to the systems that drive compliance, and remove creative thought! A must listen for those interested in changing the world of work! Michelle's Journey into Agile Coaching "It's not about predicting; it's about responding." Michelle's journey into becoming an Agile coach was as unpredictable as volcanos can be, literally! Inspired initially by Michel Foucault during her studies, she found herself intrigued by the intricacies of thought and its impact on behavior. This intellectual curiosity led her to a company specializing in language learning software, where her role in project management opened her eyes to the stress and unpredictability inherent in the field. The realization that many of her challenges could be mitigated by Agile methodologies was a turning point. Agile, with its emphasis on adaptation over prediction, offered a solution to the guilt and responsibility she felt over uncontrollable factors, like a volcano disrupting her project. This journey not only transformed her approach to work but also challenged inherited industrial revolution-era notions of work processes. Foucault's Influence "The panopticon and Agile: Visibility without the constraint." Michelle's admiration for Michel Foucault's work, particularly his book Discipline and Punish, provides a unique lens through which she views her role as an Agile coach. The book's exploration of the panopticon—a system for observing without being seen—parallels the modern open office plan and contrasts with Agile's emphasis on transparency and collaboration. Foucault's historical analysis of justice systems and control mechanisms resonates with the systemic changes Agile coaching aims to implement in the workplace. Systems of Control and Culture "Pay attention to what is *NOT* being said; it speaks volumes about your team's culture." One of the core aspects of Agile coaching for Michelle is the focus on discourse and culture within teams—what is being talked about, and perhaps more importantly, what isn't. Drawing on Foucault and Wittgenstein, she emphasizes the power of unspoken norms and assumptions in shaping work environments. By encouraging teams to challenge these silent boundaries, Agile coaching not only aims to improve workflow but also to humanize the workplace, making it more receptive to change and innovation. Awareness of Culture in Agile Practices "Can we even think outside our language?" The challenge for Agile coaches and Scrum Masters lies in becoming deeply aware of the surrounding culture and its influence on thought and action. By critically examining workplace norms and practices, Agile professionals can identify and challenge the limitations imposed by current systems of work. This awareness is crucial in fostering an environment where innovation thrives and work is humanized, reflecting the core goals of Agile methodology. Philosophical Inspirations "I'm curious on what I learn from literature. It helps to understand, and develop empathy." Michelle's coaching philosophy is enriched by a broad spectrum of historical and literary insights, demonstrating a deep-seated belief in the value of diverse perspectives. Beyond Foucault, she draws inspiration from literature and other historical accounts of thought, believing that understanding different mental frameworks can enhance empathy and effectiveness in her coaching practice. Books like Edgar Schein's explorations of organizational culture further contribute to her holistic approach. Exploring Systems of Control "Understanding 'coercive persuasion' sheds light on resistance to change." For those interested in delving deeper into the concepts of systems of control and their implications for learning and adaptation, Michelle recommends an article from the Harvard Business Review by Edgar Schein. This resource provides insights into 'coercive persuasion' and the natural resistance to change, topics that are crucial for Agile coaches aiming to navigate and mitigate these challenges in their organizations. About Michelle Pauk Michelle Pauk is the founder of Streamside Coaching, where she helps leaders and organizations thrive with change. She has over 15 years of experience working in diverse agile environments as a Product Owner, Scrum Master, project manager, and Agile coach. She is a Professional Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation and has a master's degree in leadership and organizational development. You can link with Michelle Pauk on LinkedIn.

Lesson 2: Relationships That Stay with You Relationships are key to your professional development. Seek programs with a built-in structure for interaction, a diverse background of participants, and resources for staying connected. Academy Applications Close Friday, March 15th The Academy is an intimate cohort of participant leaders who work personally with me to accelerate their leadership development and organizational results. Discover more and submit your application by Friday, March 15th. Resources How to Win Friends and Influence People* by Dale Carnegie Related Episodes The Path Towards Trusting Relationships, with Edgar Schein and Peter Schein (episode 539) How to Make Smarter Investments in Your Learning, with Jill Schlesinger (episode 624) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic.

In The New Economics, Deming said “The individual, transformed, will perceive new meaning to his life…” (3rd edition, page 63) But are we ever completely transformed? Discover why Bill Bellows believes that transformation is an ongoing process and how you can keep your learning journey going. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.2 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with Bill Bellows, who has spent 30 years helping people apply Dr. Deming's ideas to become aware of how their thinking is holding them back from their biggest opportunities. And the topic for today is, in this episode 17, Diffusion from a Point Source. Bill, take it away.   0:00:29.6 Bill Bellows: And the title coincidentally, was the focus of my Master's thesis. We'll look at that later.   0:00:37.1 AS: It wasn't a rock and roll song. Yes, correct.   0:00:39.9 BB: No, not a rock and roll. [chuckle] Actually, Diffusion from a Point Source. Was that Mick Jagger or Keith Richards? Maybe it was Taylor. Maybe it was Taylor Swift. Okay. So some opening remarks, and then we'll get to today's feature. And I mentioned in the past, I go back and listen to the podcast, read through the transcripts, and it's very much like “Production Viewed as a System” - is to talk with people that have listened to it, listened to it myself and ask, have I... Are there holes in the explanation? Can I add some more clarity to it? The process I use for these podcasts is, some title comes to mind. I've got a long list that we started with at the very beginning, and then some other topics come up for any of a variety of reasons.   0:01:35.3 BB: And we'll have a title, have an outline, but then as we get involved in the conversation, something I say leads to something that you say leads to something that's not on the list. And sometimes some of those ad-libs, I go back and listen to and say, "Well, I don't know that sounded right. I just wanna add a little bit more clarity". Another thing I wanna say at the outset for those listening, is [chuckle] there is... Somebody posted somewhere on social media that one of the sessions was a total waste of time to listen to which I think is unfortunate. But what I like to say is, where I'm coming from to support The Deming Institute, as your ambition is as well, is to help individuals in respective organizations learn about Dr. Deming's ideas, try to apply them, deepen their understanding, explain them to others, and that's the target audience.   0:02:48.0 BB: So, for those who find that boring, well maybe this is not the podcast for you. And so, and the other thing I wanna say along those lines is, for the majority of my time at Rocketdyne, I had the responsibility of being a transformation agent or transformation person was part of my job. Now, I was brought in, I didn't have that job to begin with. The job I had to begin with was to lead the effort to provide training, facilitation of applications of Dr. Taguchi's ideas. And what I've shared in these podcasts is a lot of what I was doing early on was helping people put out fires.   0:03:38.2 BB: And that's not what Dr. Taguchi's ideas are about. His ideas are about improving the robustness of the performance of a product or service. Whereby what robustness Dr. Taguchi means is "it performs as an athlete incredibly well in spite of differing weather conditions." So the ability of a marathoner to run very consistent fast times in spite of the weather, in spite of the altitude. And so you're getting consistently high, or consistently faster and faster times. That's what Dr. Taguchi meant by, means by, his work means by "robustness."   0:04:16.2 BB: And what I was doing was using tools and techniques associated with his ideas to fight fires. And then, I got frustrated by that. And that led me to Dr. Deming's work, led me to revisit Dr. Deming's work. I had met him in 1990 and The New Economics came out in '93, and I had a couple of years of this frustration. The exciting thing was solving, getting involved, working with some really exciting people, and solving some very high visibility issues. But it wasn't breaking in as much as I would've liked into the, into the robustness piece. And when I came across Deming's work, I started to understand, it gave me a lot of food for thought as to why that might be the case. Now what is meant by transformation? And Dr. Deming uses that term, an individual transformed.   0:05:07.8 BB: And I had asked people that were close to him like, what is his operational definition of transformation? And when I explained it to them, I said, this is what I think he means this. And typically people say that's, they agree with that. And so my simple explanation of what I think Deming meant by transformation is as simple as, me saying to you, the professor to the student, “Andrew, how did you do on the exam?” Whereas I've said in the past, that makes me an observer of your learning to changing the question to how are, how did we do on the exam, where I become a participant? So I look at, so to me, the transformation Deming's talking about is that I no longer look around at things and see myself as separate from them. I look at myself as connected to them, and others being transformed or likewise seeing themselves as integral to what's going on, not watching it go by. Another reason I wanna bring that transformation agent piece up is part of my job, not part of my job, so I went from being mostly about Taguchi's work to mostly about Deming's work because I felt it was far more vital to focus on what Deming's talking about, the transform, how the organization and transform how the individuals operate. Another thing I wanna say there is what I think is interesting, if you look at the forward to Out of the Crisis and The New Economics.   0:06:48.1 BB: In Out of the Crisis, which I think was 1986 or so timeframe, Deming talked about the aim of this book is to help transform organizations. And then in The New Economics, he talks about the aim of this book is to help transform individuals. So he went through, he's shifted his focus from I'm trying to help organizations to I'm trying to help individuals. And that's what I'm hoping to do, interacting with you in these podcasts. So, on the one hand, I'd say to those listening, I don't know what your role is. If you're a transformation agent, that's one role. You may be an individual contributor, a senior software person, a marketing person, which means your job title does not include transforming the organization.   0:07:37.8 BB: So, what does that mean? It means some of what we're talking about may not apply to you. You may be personally excited about the Trip Report and, but it may not be your job to hold seminars within your respective organizations and go off and explain that to people. You may alienate people who think that's their job. So, I just wanna say, ask people, to be careful about what your role is in your organization. I've mentored many people and I'm used to going in and being the transformation person. And, one person I was working with, and she was all excited to wanna go share the Me-We Trip Report with her peers in this company doing software. And I said, "You can't do that". And she's like, "Well, why?" I said, "It's not your job". I said, "One is if you call a meeting to talk about transformation of the organization, or you get into that territory. I said, you're stepping on the toes of people who have that responsibility, perhaps. Or somebody's gonna say, wait, I thought we paid you to be a software engineer. Now you're over here. So, now you sound like you're astray, you're a loose cannon".   0:08:56.8 BB: Now I said, to this person, I said, now if you... There may be a place for you to say, "Hey, I wanna show you this neat solution.” If you think they're interested, ideally they ask you to show you how you did that. So, I think there's a difference when it comes to implementing these ideas, I would just advise some caution to people to not overstep their bounds and what it means to bring these ideas to the organization. So, I just wanted to say that.   0:09:32.4 AS: Yep. I just wanted to highlight the word transformation for a second. And the dictionary definition says, "transformation is a thorough or dramatic change in form or appearance. A transformation is an extreme radical change." And that's interesting, 'cause they say in form or appearance that you could have someone do a facelift that dramatically changes their face and the way they appear. But, has it been an internal transformation? Maybe, maybe not.   0:10:10.9 BB: Well, what's funny is, I mentioned that in previous podcasts, 'cause once a month for 17 years, I hosted an Ongoing Discussion where there'd be... I could have you on as a Thought Leader on a topic near and dear to you. And we send the announcement out and people would call in and it took a few years for Russ to agree to do it. And then, he eventually did, and he did it every January. Typically people would, every month be somebody different. But once I saw Russ's excitement by it, then I said, "Russ, every January we're gonna have you", we did it for four years, and every January I'd fly out to Philadelphia and be with him. So, the last time I did it with him, we were in his apartment. We were sitting pretty close together over the small desk. And in the sessions, the term transformation came up. So, the last session ends, we did four one-hour sessions over two days. The last session ends. And I turned off my recorder. And I said, "Russ, it just dawned on me that you and Deming, you and Dr. Deming both talk about transformation".   0:11:26.8 BB: And I said, "Dr. Deming talks about a personal transformation - I see the world differently.” And Russ looks at transformation as an attribute of a solution. That “we used to do it this way, now we do it this way.” And so, his is not transformation of an individual, but transformation of a solution. And I said, I just... I threw it out as I just, "You both used the word, but you use it differently". And I said something like, now I was waiting to see what he would say with that. And he looks at me and he says, "I see no value in that conversation", which followed by "let's go get lunch."   [laughter]   0:12:22.8 AS: Exactly.   0:12:24.0 BB: And so I thought, oh, I was really looking forward to exploring that space with him. And I shared that conversation with one of his peers later that night. And he said, "He said that?" I said, "Not only did he say that", he said, "You know what? I really wasn't surprised". 'Cause Russ was... It seemed to be a little bit too abstract for him. Anyway, but it's, but he would've put it, "What is this transformation stuff?"   0:12:51.0 AS: That, it's interesting because sometimes we talk about the why isn't Deming more widely accepted and that type of thing. And I think one of the things is that he's driving for transformation versus I think majority of people are providing information and here's how you do Lean, here's how you do this, here's how you do statistics or whatever, and here's all the information. And then you use that to to make better decisions. I think Dr. Deming was never about being better in our decisions but about how do we transform the way we think.   0:13:33.9 BB: Yes.   0:13:34.8 AS: And also the second part is that the idea of shifting from transforming an organization to transforming an individual. I guess an organization doesn't transform unless the leadership has already transformed or is in a process of transformation. So, therefore targeting the individuals for trying to help them get a transformation ended up being the most important or first step, I'm guessing.   0:14:00.2 BB: Oh yeah. No, I thought it was just so neat to see that shift. I don't know if we've talked that much in these podcasts about transformation. I'll have to go back and check. But what we were doing within Rocketdyne to help differentiate, 'cause language is so important. What do we mean by transform? Because it's a very casually used term and I was trying to, you know, with colleagues at Rocketdyne trying to differentiate what Deming's use of that term. 'Cause we liked the term but the challenge became if we used it did it adopt a meaning that he didn't have in mind in which case we're off to the Milky Way.   0:14:48.8 BB: But what we did was try to differentiate physical change from mental, a physical shift from a mental shift. I guess to me a big part of what he is talking about is going from seeing parts to seeing systems to seeing things as being connected to start thinking about as Edgar Schein would as Peter Senge quoted Peter Schein, Peter Senge quoted Edgar Schein, "Culture are the assumptions we cannot see".   0:15:21.5 BB: And, so I was focusing on is we talk about, there's culture, culture comes from the assumptions. The assumptions come from beliefs and that's associated with our thinking. And that's the space that I think has... is the space to be to really believe, to really implement what Dr. Deming's talking about for all those benefits we've been talking about. And so the word, so in the training we were doing in our InThinking Roadmap, we differentiated reforming and we said "reforming is a physical change. Giving things a new name, adding more steps to the process. It's change you can, it's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic." And there's nothing wrong. You can move people together to be closer physically but that doesn't move them together mentally. So, there's a sense of we want everyone to be in the same room physically but they're... But you can hear they're in separate rooms mentally.   0:16:22.7 BB: And we've talked about this in a Me Organization I hand off something which is good to you and if it's not good, you give it back to me. If it is good, you say thank you and I'm separated. I am physically and mentally separated and there's nothing wrong with being physically separated I have to hand off to you. But how about an environment where I am mentally, we are mentally connected because we're thinking together. So if you come back to me and say, "Bill I'm having trouble getting these things together". And I say, "Well, hey I can, I..." not only do I understand that I caused that but I can possibly do something about that. That's the mental transformation piece. So there's... I look at it as there's nothing wrong. I look at it as there's a place for transforming, reforming, moving things to be closer, minimizing number of steps. Nothing wrong with that. But that's not what Deming was talking about. He was talking about transforming which is a change of how we see the world. How we hear the world.   0:17:25.3 AS: Yeah. And when I look at the System of Profound Knowledge and we look at Appreciation for a System, look at Knowledge about Variation and Understanding the Theory of Knowledge and then Psychology, I would say the one you mentioned about Appreciation of a System is the one that brings true transformation because we are taught to look so narrowly. And when we start to look at the bigger system it just blows your mind.   0:17:58.9 BB: Well, it's...it... No, I absolutely agree. I can remember in the early ‘90s I had met Dr. Deming once and I thought that's fascinating. And, I put it aside and got buried in the Taguchi stuff and then began to see the issues as I had mentioned in previous podcasts as well as today. And I started thinking there's, there's something missing. And, in the Taguchi school it was, we need more tools, more advanced tools. That's not about transformation. There's nothing in Taguchi's work that was about the transformation that Deming's talking about. And I'm not aware of that mindset. Well, I've not come across that mindset in many places. I don't see it in all the...a lot of the traditional improvement techniques whether it's Lean or Six Sigma or Operational Excellence. I don't see that, that focus. I agree.   0:19:07.6 AS: And, I bought this book Guide to Quality Control by Kaoru Ishikawa.   0:19:11.2 BB: Yep, yep.   0:19:12.6 AS: I got it in 1990. And, but it's a great example of, the objective wasn't a transformation. The objective was understand these tools and maybe that leads to a transformation, maybe not. That wasn't what he was aiming for. He was saying, "Here's the tools and here's how you can apply them".   0:19:32.2 BB: Well, I used to debate with some co-workers and his, one co-worker in particular. And his mindset was, focus on the tools, and the language, in the conversation we're having, his theory was, "Get people to apply the tools and the transformation will eventually happen". I had the same thought.   0:20:00.1 AS: If that was the case, we'd all be transformed already because we're all applying tools every day.   0:20:04.7 BB: And 'cause we, I had heard a comment, I was at a Taguchi conference and I heard a comment. And as soon as I got back to my office, and this gentleman we're both at work really, really early, we'd go down and get coffee at a quarter to six, go back and sit in his office for a couple hours and just have some great, great, great conversations. And I shared with him, I was at a Taguchi conference and somebody said, the reference was, "You wait for the... " It was something, "The journey begins after the transformation starts". And as soon as I said that, he said, "I think it's the other way around", that the transformation happens after. And I thought to myself, I knew you'd say that, because that was his attitude. Get 'em to use the tools, get 'em to use the tools, get 'em to use the tools. And I kept looking at it as, no, that does not. Yeah. I mean it doesn't mean you don't do it, you don't do something. But I think when you begin to see the world and hear the world differently as we're trying to convey, to me that's when the rubber really begins to hit the road. That's when you move. And again, as we talked, there's nothing wrong with tools and techniques, but tools and techniques are guided by your understanding of the system and the other things. And it's just not enough to be a tool head.   0:21:48.7 BB: Other things I wanted, oh, okay. [laughter] So let's go back the cloud model from number 16. And what I did not reference again, 'cause I went back and looked at it and there's what we shared, but what I wanted to add to it was, one is the idea learned from Barry Bebb that you're an individual contributor trying to get ideas up to the cloud, the cloud being the executives in their meeting space, and the idea of handing off to somebody above you. And then the idea that that transfer is going to take a few times from person to person to get someone in the cloud transformed with an appreciation. And relative to Deming's work, it involved the transformation.   0:22:34.9 BB: If it involves trying to get Dr. Taguchi's up to the cloud, ideas to the cloud, manner involve what we're talking about relative to Deming's work, fine. But the other aspect that I then neglected to mention is what Barry's talking about is, is once it gets to the cloud, then what rains down on the organization is the beginning of, in our case, transforming the organization. That's the raining down. So the cloud is not just that place on high that things get up to, but the idea of a cycle that things then start to flow down. And so, I mentioned, you know, I got back from that very first meeting with Barry and went into my boss's boss's office and that I had had that meeting, and little did I know what I was gonna learn from Barry.   0:23:26.8 BB: And learning from Barry, you either go back to... You have to be in your organization, find somebody higher, and immediately I thought I wanted that person to be Jim for his influence. And so I would meet with him on a regular basis. And, and what I was looking for is, what could he and I do together? Because some things take time and some things can be done tomorrow. So I would go into him once a month with some ideas, give him some status of what's going on. So one time I went in and I had an idea, I'd mentioned to him that after every launch of a rocket with a Rocketdyne engine, there'd be a loud speaker announcement. And the loud speaker announcement might say, "Congratulations to the Space Shuttle Main Engine team for a job well done.” Congratulations to the Delta team for the engines made for the Delta vehicle or to the Atlas program.   0:24:24.3 BB: And what I shared with Jim is that I had mentioned that loud speaker announcement to a friend in facilities who was a manager in facilities. And I said, "How does it feel when you're in facilities and you hear that announcement?" And her comment was, "You get used to it."   [laughter]   0:24:43.9 BB: You get used to being ignored. Well, I mentioned to a friend in HR, and he shared with me every time he would hear that announcement in HR, he said he and the guy on the other side of the cubicle wall would stand up and give each other a high five and say, "Way to go", 'cause they were not in the announcement. So I went in to see Jim and I said, I mentioned the woman's name. I said, she said, "You get used to it." And he looks at me and he says, "I want everyone in this organization to identify with every launch." He said, "I don't care if you're in janitorial services cleaning the restrooms." He said, "I want everyone to identify." Well then I said, "Well, that announcement doesn't." And I said, "Could we change the announcement?" And he was about to write it down and he says, "Well, we can do that right now." I'm thinking, "Oh, baby." [laughter] So he calls up the Director of Communications who sits across the hall from him and says, "Would you mind coming to my office for a minute?" Okay. So the person comes into the office, he says, "Do you know Bill?" And the person said, "Yeah, I know Bill". And Jim says to this person, "Could we change the loudspeaker announcement to say from now on, "Congratulations to Team Rocketdyne?" And she goes, "Sure, Jim, we could do that." [chuckle]   0:26:17.9 BB: And so, I had a Taguchi class later that afternoon, and somehow I mentioned the announcement. I didn't mention what I had done, but I somehow made reference to it. And people were used to that. And I remember saying to them, so what if you aren't on one of those teams? And people just said... This is how we operate. It's part of the culture to celebrate those individual teams. And I remember saying to them something like, "Well, if that announcement ever changes, call me," or something like that. It was something like that. And sure enough, when the announcement was made within a week, but I felt it was something, I was looking for things that I could do to influence the culture. Little things that ideally could be, and you know, I was also appreciative of what could Jim do? Now, several years later, the announcements went back to what they were. I'm not quite sure why, Jim had moved on. For all I know the programs were tired of “Team Rocketdyne” where, Team Rocketdyne, it's Team Space Shuttle Main Engine. And so some of the people complained to me that the announcement had shifted, and I turned to one of them and I said, "You go and fight that battle". I said, "If you want it to change, you go, go let the communications person, you go fight for it". And the thing I'd like to, a couple other things I want to point out before we get into the features is...   0:27:55.9 AS: Just so you know, we only got, we got less than 10 minutes, it's a tight show today.   0:28:00.7 BB: Alright. Let's jump. Let's jump to Diffusion From a Point Source, Andrew.   0:28:04.2 AS: Yep.   0:28:05.4 BB: So my Master's thesis back in the, was right around the time of Three Mile Island, I was writing my Master's thesis. And for those who may not recall, Three Mile Island and somewhere in the hills of Pennsylvania was a nuclear reactor that nearly melted down and diffused. [chuckle] If things had gone worse, it would've diffused a lot of bad radioactivity downstream from a stack, from a point. And so, my Master's thesis was looking at diffusion, how very much like that. And what was funny is I would explain to aunts and uncles and family members, "What is your thesis about?" And I say, "Well, remember Three Mile Island? I said, what I'm trying to do is model how it is, how does that radioactivity spread out downstream? How does it go wider and wider and higher and higher? How does it spread like smoke does if you blow out a match and how does that spread?" That's diffusion from point source. And part of what I had in mind with that topic for the audience is for each of us being a point source on our respective organizations and how are we diffusing what we're aware of within the organization, which in part has to do with being a transformation agent or an agent of, playing a role in the organization.   0:29:32.7 BB: The other thing I wanted to point out is in, in my engineering studies, and the equations that we would use about diffusion, um, has a role here. And if you think of a bathtub, so I imagine you're in the bathtub, you've got hot water coming in and the heat from that water coming in. And I'm trying to think, yeah, imagine the water is lukewarm and you're laying in there and you want it to be warmer, so you crank up the temperature. And then you can begin to feel that hotter water hitting your toes and then spreading it - diffusing. And there are mathematical equations I was studying that have to do with that. And what the equations are about is how does the temperature at any point in the tub change, and how does it change throughout the tub? So there's two aspects of change, at a given point, how is it changing over time? And then how is that change spreading until it starts to fill the entire tub? And so it could be you've got a 100 degree water coming out or 120 degree water, and in time the entire bathtub is 120 degrees, in time, which means the diffusion has stopped because it's all the same.   0:31:04.0 BB: And then, a couple hours later, it's all about the room temperature. Well, the analogy I wanna make is imagine going off to a Deming seminar all excited by what you've learned, and you go into your organization and you try to diffuse these ideas or, or another way of looking at it is, I would be invited into an organization and present Dr. Deming's ideas. It's kind of a point source. And so the ideas come out and people feel that spread across the organization. But what tends to happen is within a week, everything's back to room temperature.   [laughter]   0:31:47.8 BB: And that's, and that's the idea being, Deming's ideas come in or whatever the ideas come in, and then they're spreading in space and in time, and then we're back to where we were before. What I was very excited about, most fortunate about, and what we were doing at Rocketdyne is that what's missing from that equation that I just explained to you is a point source. And so when you're modeling, when you go back to the thermodynamics laws that I was modeling, if in the bathtub, there's a... If you've got a source of heat, you're generating energy in that environment, then the bathtub's going to get hotter and hotter and hotter and hotter and hotter. But without that point source, that source of transformation, which is constantly going on, everything goes back to room temperature. So what we were trying to do at Rocketdyne was, how do we take the ideas we're given, integrate them with Ackoff's ideas and Taguchi's ideas and try to create...   0:33:04.1 BB: Not let things go back to room temperature, but what would it take in conversations amongst ourselves and sharing that with others, that we had a constant source of energy, which gets things hotter and hotter and hotter and hotter and hotter. When it comes to Three Mile Island, the point source was an out-of-control reaction. But what we were trying to do is create a, have an environment where a lot of energy was being created, and that led to rethinking what these ideas are about, bringing others into the room, whether it be Ackoff or others. And I find without that, eventually things just go back to normal. And so what is...   0:33:50.8 AS: And what is that back... The back to normal thing, is that, like if we think about gravity as a law, it's naturally gonna pull things back to Earth.   [chuckle]   0:34:04.7 BB: If you go back to room temperature, you go back to where you were.   0:34:09.3 AS: What is it that brings humans back? Is it the...   0:34:12.2 BB: Well, you end up, you go back to blaming the willing workers for the red beads. You go back to all the things that Dr. Deming's trying to pull us away from, and there's this natural force to pull them back to that, you end up with a change in management. Dr. Deming's 14 points of lack of constancy of purpose. And so what we're talking about with Deming's ideas is a source of ideas, energy to transform. And what we're fighting is, individually that we stop learning, individually we stop sharing, individually we stop doing something with it. And so you just unplug the point source and you'll be back to room temperature pretty quickly.   0:34:55.5 AS: So how would you... What is the main message you wanna get across to the audience about this as we wrap up?   0:35:03.0 BB: Message is, find a peer group that you can discuss these ideas with. And that's what's missing is find people you can discuss, listen to the podcast, pay attention to DemingNEXT, find people to share the ideas with, and out of it will come more energy. And, but the idea is that don't stop learning. Don't stop sharing. I am very fortunate that every day I have conversations with people around the world, and it's causing me to reflect on things that happened. And to me, it's helping me stay engaged, keep rethinking what the ideas we're talking about. And so the idea is that I think without that, then individually we go back to room temperature, we go back to where we were before we started exercising. And, but I think what I would like to think is that people listening to this podcast can find again peers to share it with and on a recurring basis. And so again, I'm talking with people around the world every week, and to me that's, part of this is what we're doing at Rocketdyne with these monthly phone calls is just staying engaged, staying in the game, staying in the game, staying in the game. So that's the diffusion from.   0:36:24.7 AS: And to bring it back to the beginning of our conversation, I think that, I guess transformation is when you don't go back to room temperature.   0:36:36.0 BB: It's an ongoing transformation. And this is... There's very few things Deming said I disagreed with. One of them is, and [chuckle] he said, "An individual transformed will create an example". I don't think there's any such thing as an individual transformed, I would say an individual, once their transformation begins but I don't... But thinking in terms of, "once transformed," and I think I mentioned on the podcast, 'cause I had a student in Northwestern years ago, and they're doing presentations at the end of the course on how the course hass impacted them, taking notes from their daily journals. And there were a group presenting that night. The other group was gonna present the next night. So one was anxious, one was calm, and I went up to one of the calm students and I said, "Yeah, so what's new?" And he turned to me and he said, "I'm fully transformed".   [chuckle]   0:37:34.3 BB: No, what we're talking about Andrew, is there's no such thing as... Because there's, if you understand the point source concept, there's no "fully transformed."   0:37:43.1 AS: Yep, that sounds...   0:37:44.6 BB: So then the question becomes, how do we enter and individually stay in that group?   0:37:51.4 AS: So transformation is an ongoing journey. Bill, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for the discussion. And for listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. And if you want to keep in touch with Bill, just find him on LinkedIn. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming, "People are entitled to joy in work.”

Lucinda delves into the topic of rethinking culture within organisations. Drawing on research and personal experiences, she explores various cultural models and frameworks including Competing Values Framework by Cameron and Quinn, the Culture Onion by Edgar Schein, and The Cultural Web by Gary Johnson and Kevin Scholes, Lucinda provides practical insights and tools for assessing and reshaping organisational culture KEY TAKEAWAYS The Competing Values Framework by Cameron and Quinn, which categorises organisational cultures into four types based on flexibility, stability, internal focus, and external focus, highlights the significance of aligning culture with strategy for organisational success. The Culture Onion model by Edgar Schein, focusing on visible artifacts, espoused values, underlying assumptions, and leadership behaviors underscores the role of leadership in shaping organisational culture. The Cultural Web model by Johnson and Scholes includes seven elements like organisational structures, control systems, power structures, symbols, stories, and rituals. The key steps to drive culture change, include getting leaders on board, involving employees, aligning structures and processes, and embedding the desired culture. BEST MOMENTS "Culture is how we do things around here. It's almost a feeling. It's just what happens." "The bottom line is much as we might want strategy to be the driver, fundamentally culture is going to be stronger." "The visible artefacts are easy to see, but they might not necessarily represent the values and assumptions of the organisation." "Underlying assumptions are the deepest level of the organisational culture, the unconscious beliefs, perceptions, and attitudes shared by people in the organisation." VALUABLE RESOURCES The HR Uprising Podcast | Apple | Spotify | Stitcher   The HR Uprising LinkedIn Group How to Prioritise Self-Care (The HR Uprising) How To Be A Change Superhero - by Lucinda Carney HR Uprising Mastermind - https://hruprising.com/mastermind/   www.changesuperhero.com www.hruprising.com            Get your copy of How To Be A Change Superhero by emailing at info@actus.co.uk ABOUT THE HOST Lucinda Carney is a Business Psychologist with 15 years in Senior Corporate L&D roles and a further 10 as CEO of Actus Software where she worked closely with HR colleagues helping them to solve the same challenges across a huge range of industries. It was this breadth of experience that inspired Lucinda to set up the HR Uprising community to facilitate greater collaboration across HR professionals in different sectors, helping them to ‘rise up' together. “If you look up, you rise up” CONTACT METHOD Join the LinkedIn community - https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13714397/ Email: Lucinda@advancechange.co.uk Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucindacarney/ Twitter: @lucindacarney Instagram: @hruprising Facebook: @hruprising HR podcast, The HR Uprising, Diversity, Equality & Inclusion, Learning and Development, Culture & Change: https://hruprising.com/hr-podcasts/

In our landmark 200th episode, "The Criminologists Podcast" welcomes the esteemed Dr. Dena Hanley, a visionary in the field of correctional services and supervision practices.  Join us as we delve into a thought-provoking discussion that spans the breadth and depth of criminal justice reform, focusing on Dr. Hanley's innovative approach to value staff and enhancing organizational culture in correctional administrations.  Key Episode Highlights:  1. Dr. Hanley's Journey: Learn about Dr. Hanley's 20-year career and how her education and experiences have shaped her approach to correctional services.   2. Transforming Correctional Services. Discover how focusing on staff as the most valuable asset has revolutionized correctional practices.        3. Success stories and Challenges.  Hear about a particularly successful project and the challenges faced in implementing effective supervision practices. 4. Unique Challenges of Domestic Violence.  Dr. Hanley reflects on her time dealing with domestic violence intervention and the unique challenges it presents. Special Announcements:  Program Structure Changes: We discuss the exciting new format changes coming to the podcast, including more debate style discussions and a potential return to the mock caseloads! Upcoming Trainings and Presentations: An announcement of upcoming training of The TIDES program model and our presentation of the model at the 6th World Congress on Probation and Parole!   Contact information for TIDES: Interested in learning more about the TIDES model? Reach out to us at thetidesllc@gmail.com Valuable links below! Link to the referenced Edgar Schein book: Dr. Hanley's contact info The Criminologist You Tube channel  

We are joined on this weeks conversation by one of my favourite thinkers in the safety field Rosa Antonia Carrillo. ROSA ANTONIA CARRILLO, M.S.O.D., president of Carrillo and Associates, is an internationallyrecognized author and safety leadership consultant. Edgar Schein recommended her 2020 book, TheRelationship Factor in Safety Leadership, as required reading for anyone wanting to understand safety culture.She has 25 years of hands-on international experience with clients in utilities, oil & gas, mining, energy, biotech,manufacturing, financial services, education, and government sectors. She has conducted 100's of safety cultureassessments, interviews with managers and employee focus groups, which gives her an unusual depth ofunderstanding of how cultures operate. She knows how employees think about psychological safety, reportinginjuries or near misses. She knows why employees do or don't engage.For her, leaders are individuals who consciously choose to take on the responsibility for providing direction,gathering resources and ensuring that everyone under them feels they can contribute their best self to the goalsof the community. Her core conviction is that effective leadership is focused on creating a culture where thosebeing led can flourish.She is known for her authenticity, which enables her to teach and speak in a way that relates to real lifeexperience. Through face-to-face presentations and conversation, Rosa inspires physical, relational and spiritualdevelopment. She has learned that the leadership journey entails continuous personal growth and alwaysrequires more work than we realize.Her expertise is frequently sought on the topic of how to create and maintain trust. By speaking with 100's ofemployees and managers, Ms. Carrillo has gathered the leadership actions that create trust and the ones thatdestroy it. People must feel included to trust management. They will not speak up to prevent failures anddisasters unless they feel valued and respected.As a former adjunct faculty in the Pepperdine University Presidential Key Executive program, Ms. Carrilloworked in depth to develop leadership capability in high-level managers. Ms. Carrillo's 18 years ofexperience at the operational level with managers, supervisors and union members in North America, LatinAmerica, Central Asia, and Bahrain, brings her credibility with all levels of the organization.Ms. Carrillo holds a Masters of Science degree in Organization Development at Pepperdine University and isa former member of the Faculty in the Presidential Key Executive MBA program at Pepperdine University,specializing in Organizational Behavior.More information can be found at carrilloconsultants.com Thanks for listening. We have some great guests coming up in future pods so get ready to learn. Until next time, enjoy the rest of your week, and stay safe. https://plus.acast.com/s/health-and-safety-conversations. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Download the Baptist Management System, which is the backbone of how Baptist drives change, at our website: https://www.enterpriseexcellenceacademy.com/downloads.Summary KeywordsExcellence, Baptist, principles, management system, patient, flow, called, relationship, process, batching, organisation, enterprise, twi, great, 1000s, conversations, big, podcast.IntroductionWelcome to episode 163 of the Enterprise Excellence Podcast. We've got Skip Steward back on the show today with Part 2 of our show. It's such an amazing show talking about excellence in health, and this is such an important topic right now, moving in the the years ahead.  We are proudly sponsored by S A Partners, a world-leading business transformation consultancy.Episode Links:Youtube, Full episode: https://youtu.be/IHZoDhBk3hUTwo-Minute Tip: https://youtu.be/g4wyFCko4U8?si=g96dR4VsCGpJ1s-WEnterprise Excellence Academy: https://www.enterpriseexcellenceacademy.com/podcast/episode/772d515b/163-excellence-in-health-baptist-memorial-health-care-usa-with-mr-skip-steward-part-2ContactsSkip's Profilelinkedin.com/in/skipstewardhttps://www.baptistonline.org/physician-resources/connecting-the-dots-podcastBrad's ProfileConnect via LinkedIn or call him on 0402 448 445 or email bjeavons@iqi.com.au. What's next?1.     Download the Baptist Management System, which is the backbone of how Baptist drives change, at our website: https://www.enterpriseexcellenceacademy.com/downloads.2.     Listen to another podcast, episode 20, on excellence in healthcare with Mark Graban.a.     listen on our website - https://www.enterpriseexcellenceacademy.com/podcast/episode/495f52ee/20-how-to-achieve-excellence-in-healthcare-with-mark-grabanb.     Watch on Youtube - https://youtu.be/ZxHHR4OAqlg?si=7-vscAiqmt-kutQ63.     Look at the interviews with Edgar Schein and Skip at their Baptist Management System on YouTube. www.youtube.com/@BaptistManagementSystem4.     Delve into Relationship Mapping.5.     The Advice Trap book6.     To learn more about what we do, visit www.enterpriseexcellenceacademy.com.Thanks for your time, and thanks for helping to create a better future.

Guest Bios Show Transcript How can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? In this podcast, theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer, join me to discuss their latest book, Pivot, a sequel to their earlier best-selling book, A Church Called Tov. While their first book explained the characteristics of a “tov,” or good, culture, Pivot tackles the next challenge—transforming ingrained toxic cultures into tov ones. As Scot and Laura discuss, transformation can be a grueling and painful process. And their research shows transformation takes an average of seven years! But it is possible. And cultures led by narcissist leaders that create consumers can transform into ones led by servant-leaders that make disciples.  In their characteristic relatable and warm style, Scot and Laura explain the practical steps required to do that. Specifically, they discuss the priorities, practices, and powers necessary to pivot, or transform, toxic cultures. And they give real-life examples of churches that have undergone this transformation and lived to tell about it! Scot and Laura draw from their own experiences in churches, conversations with leaders seeing transformation happen, and a deep well of research to provide actionable insights for churches and ministries. Guests Scot McKnight Scot McKnight is a professor of New Testament and has been teaching for more than four decades. His specialty is in the fields of Gospels and Jesus studies, but his passions are in the intersection of New Testament in its context as it speaks to the church today. Along with his daughter, Laura Barringer, they have published A Church Called Tov and a follow-up book, Pivot, which discusses what churches can do to help transform themselves from toxic cultures into tov (goodness) cultures. Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles.  Show Transcript SPEAKERS SCOT McKNIGHT, LAURA BARRINGER, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS  00:00 So how can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And joining me today are theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer. They're the authors of the bestselling book A Church Called TOV. TOV is the Hebrew word for good or goodness. And the book explained how to create a church culture that's truly good–one that resists abuse promotes healing and spiritual growth. But what if your church or Christian workplace already has an ingrained toxic culture? Well, that's what Scot and Laura's new book PIVOT is all about. It explains the priorities, practices and powers that can help you pivot or transform your toxic culture into a TOV culture. But it's not easy and it's not for the faint of heart, but it is God honoring and it is possible. So I'm very excited to delve into this topic was gotten Laura But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to JudsonU.edu. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That's because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.com.  Well again, joining me is New Testament scholar Scot McKnight, who has authored more than 50 books. He's currently professor of New Testament at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lisle, Illinois. And he's an ordained Anglican and maintains a blog with Christianity today called Jesus Creed. So Scott, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you join me. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:25 Thanks, Julie. Good to be with you again. JULIE ROYS  02:27 Yeah, second time. So I always like when I have a repeat guest. It means it must have gone okay the first time. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:33 I used to be with you sometimes on the radio, in the old days. JULIE ROYS  02:37 On Moody. Yeah. Yes, old days. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is going to be fun. I love the book. And Laura, thank you also for joining me again, Scot's daughter Laura Barringer, who's co authored Scott's last two books, A Church Called TOV and PIVOT. Laura also is a children's ministry curriculum writer for Grow Kids. And her day job is teaching kindergarteners in suburban Chicago and Laura, I know you've had a full day teaching them today. So thank you so much for for joining us and for being willing to come on. LAURA BARRINGER  03:09 Yeah, thank you for having me again. It's nice to be with you guys. JULIE ROYS  03:13 And you were just with us at RESTORE, and did a phenomenal job. And we've been rolling out the videos on that and yours will be rolling out in the next few weeks. But that was just delightful to have you. So thank you for joining us at that. LAURA BARRINGER  03:27 I had a great time. It was such an honor to speak at the event and meet so many of the people that I've interacted with online over the last few times. I was just blown away by how special. I was anticipating it. But I was blown away by how special that was to see actual faces. And I came away just realizing this is so much more. It's not just a conference. It's so much more than that. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:51 That's what we experienced the year before. LAURA BARRINGER  03:53 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:54 Same thing like these are the people. LAURA BARRINGER  03:56 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:56 These are the people. Yeah, that's good. JULIE ROYS  03:58 Yeah, I think you called it a restorative community. LAURA BARRINGER  03:58 That's what it is. JULIE ROYS  04:00 I love that. I was like, yes, that's exactly what RESTORE is. And Scot, you joined us last year for the RESTORE conference. And your video is up on our YouTube site as well. And I believe it was on How To Be TOV, Not Toxic. So a lot of that stuff that we're talking about today, although today, we're talking more about your second book, which is kind of making that pivot when you realize you already are toxic, right? And you've got this culture ingrained that's not so good. And Laura, I loved in the book where you said, at one point you're like, I teach kindergarteners and now I'm doing all these interviews on how to make a church culture TOV and how to make it good and you're like, how did I get here? And then a pastor said to you, “you know what you nurture little people all day you children all day long, and that skill, even though it's often not valued by pastors is probably more appropriate than a lot of them realize.” And I just I love that. And I'm sure you're finding that as you're speaking to people. LAURA BARRINGER  05:05 Yeah, that was very meaningful interview that was Jared McKenna. He has a podcast that he had invited me on. And for whatever reason, my dad wasn't there. I don't know, usually, they want my dad, and then I tag along. And so initially, those interviews could feel really uncomfortable, because every now and then I would stop and think, do these people, you know, they'd asked me about, like, the church abuse crisis. And I'd think, “do these people not realize that I was making kindergarten ready for school confetti earlier today?” How have I landed in this spot? But that was a very encouraging conversation for me when Jared said, you know, you have some of the qualities as a teacher that we want to see in our pastors. And I stopped, I thought, I suppose that's what we do all day long as teachers we nurture and encourage and shepherd. So yeah, that meant a lot to me, as you read in the book, JULIE ROYS  06:05 And Scott, you teach at a seminary, but a lot of seminaries aren't teaching about this kind of stuff. Like you're you learn a lot of Bible knowledge. But as far as how to create cultures and how to nurture goodness within churches? I mean, are we teaching this in enough seminaries? Or are we maybe a little heavy on the head knowledge and not enough on the cultivating of the heart? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:30 The answer to that is no. There are really no seminaries that are focused on spiritual formation or character development, LAURA BARRINGER  06:41 Really? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:42 None. The curriculum for all the courses is Bible theology, church history, and skill development. And skill development is what is measured, as a general rule for what constitutes a good pastor. In other words, they can preach they can lead, you know, we talked about leadership, I don't, but the evangelical world does. And we read books and from the business world, and we read, what is it, Jack Welch? We read all these people. And these are the people that are formational, for people's perception of what is success, and what constitutes a pastor. One of the curricular changes that took place in seminaries about 15 years ago, 10 years ago, was to bring spiritual formation into every class, rather than located in one class, a class on spiritual formation. And so we do it that way. But Julie, I think character formation for church leaders, is caught more than taught, it's embodied more than it's instructed. And it requires time with someone who has that kind of character. So if you can be an assistant, in a church with Mr. Rogers, for five years, you'll never be the same. If you are in a church with, we won't name any names don't need to in this context, for five years, you will be harmed in character formation. JULIE ROYS  08:12 And that's what's so sad is that so much of my reporting is on churches where that's happening, where you have pastors who can preach the Bible, and can teach it–sometimes with really good doctrine–and yet, the life does not match the teaching. And so that is so much of the problem. So I'm so glad that you that both of you have done these two books, which go hand in hand, and I loved your first book, A Church Called TOV, and I love this book PIVOT, because it's, it really is sort of the sequel, and I think helps an awful lot. And we've been using this phrase church culture. Scott, let me just start there. What is a church culture? Because this is something we often don't think about yet we often swim in it, and we're shaped by it. But what is it exactly? And how is it formed? SCOT McKNIGHT  09:00 A culture is a living agent that conforms people, whether they understand it, or not, unconsciously, unintentionally, to become people who fit in that culture. Now, that's the impact understanding, but culture is a living agent. That is the result of people decisions, policies, over time, that result in a given set of assumptions that are mostly invisible, that shape what's going on in a given institution, or church, whatever, without even being aware of it. That's the culture. JULIE ROYS  09:44 And so often what we see I know when I report on a church or a leader, and in several circumstances that's led to the leader being removed, and then they bring in a new leader, and you think, oh, everything's different now. SCOT McKNIGHT  09:58 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  09:59 But it's really not. Right? Because  Nothing. You've got a culture that's ingrained, you have people that have been formed by this culture. And they don't know any different than how to run a toxic church, because that's how they've been discipled. That's the culture that they're familiar with. So you use this metaphor in your book of a peach tree, to help us understand culture. So Laura, let me throw that to you. What is this peach tree metaphor? And how does it apply to helping us understand the church? SCOT McKNIGHT  10:01 Nothing, LAURA BARRINGER  10:30 So the peach tree metaphor, it's, it is a cute, if you will metaphor, but it actually is research based and we based it on the research of Edgar Schein, he's one of the, to my knowledge, most important researchers on organizational culture. And also to our knowledge, we were not able to find research or books on church culture or Christian organization culture. So we took what we learned from him and adapted it and made our model a peach tree, mostly because I have a peach tree in my backyard. Mark, and I planted it when we moved in our home about 10 years ago. And it ended up being perfect for this metaphor, because it's very unhealthy. We've never even eaten one peach off the tree. So like, Oh, that's perfect, because it was a very small because I called her tree. But at any rate, so we talked about peaches as the visible elements of your culture. And it's what people see and experience when they walk in the door. So they might feel like, Oh, those graders were friendly, or who's singing on stage or, when the Anglican tradition, they pass the peace, that's part of the culture. And when they leave, they can probably explain what they felt, what they saw. So what we have learned, and again, this is research based, is that what is underneath the soil is what feeds the living elements of the tree. And most of that is like what my dad was saying that you can't see it, you don't even know it's there. And like our peach tree in our backyard, the fact that it's not growing peaches is not the problem. The problem is that is probably the soil or that we're not caring for the tree, we're supposed to add nutrients every year–we never do. So that's how we develop the model is that the soil and what's underneath the soil, what goes into the roots is what feeds the culture of your organization. And so you really need to look at, we learned, is “what's feeding the soil?” If the tree is being fed by the fruits of the Spirit are by spiritual formation practices, the culture is likely healthy and thriving. If it's being fed by ambition, or power abuse, then the culture is going to be toxic. And so you might get some healthy, like looking peaches, but underneath that's very sick. SCOT McKNIGHT  13:04 This is a good question. And Laura's got a good answer there. But I was in a conversation the other day was a seminary professor who talked about the last three presidents of that institution. And the seminary professor said they were all narcissists. And I said, I think we have to look at why narcissists rose to the top in that organization. There's a culture that gives rise to “that's the kind of person that seems to fit the job description.” Why is that the case? JULIE ROYS  13:39 And that is an important point to make. Because I think so often we do point at the narcissist, and oh, this horrible person that was there and did such horrible things. And we don't look at what's our responsibility for putting that person in and for following that person for not noticing the characteristics that we should have. And you've named some of the toxins that go into these soils of these toxic churches. You give, and I love this because you don't hear the stories very often. And I'd love to report on a lot more of them. I wish there were a lot to report on. But it's of a church that discovers that it's toxic, and goes through this transformation process. And one of them that you talked about is is Oak Hills church in Folsom, California. Explain why Oak Hills felt like it had to transform and then how it began to do so. LAURA BARRINGER  14:33 Yeah, this is one of my favorite parts of our work on PIVOT, I think. I had never heard of Oak Hills. Just one day a book arrived on my doorstep, sent by Scot McKnight. And he said you need to read about this, and then write about it as a case study for PIVOT. It's such a beautiful story, but essentially, the pastors Mike Lueken and Ken Carlson founded a church in California called Oak Hills. And they had come out here to Willow Creek to learn as much as they could about doing church. And they don't criticize Willow at all. They said, in fact, everything that we tried worked. Their attendance exploded, they became a mega church. But they started to feel I would describe it just like an unease like in their soul. And they felt like the exact quote is so striking. It says, “the way that we were doing church was actually working against the invitation of Christ to experience his transformation.” And they had been reading Eugene Peterson, and Dallas Willard and more. And they felt like our attractional model is working against transformation. And so they took the whole church through a very tumultuous process. Their attendance declined, like it was cut in half or more. But they ended up transforming their church from an attractional model to a spiritual formation model. They said the people in the church had become consumers. So like, they would sit there and want a really good show. And then the next week, they would come back and they wanted an even better show. And they said, it felt like we were feeding a monster, and they were drained. They were worn out. And they just felt that stirring in the spirit that they had to transform it. JULIE ROYS  16:28 Yeah, somebody asked me once, whether I thought a mega church could ever be healthy. And my answer was, perhaps, but it just seems to me that all the pressures are in the wrong direction. And it's awful hard to withstand the pressures that keep pushing you in that direction. And I'm curious, Scot, have you ever seen a mega church that, really, you're seeing a real emphasis on spiritual formation? And it seems really healthy? SCOT McKNIGHT  16:59 This is a really interesting question because it feeds into what we researched in this book. And Edgar Schein, I've seen a lot of them, because I've only been there for a day or two. Okay, so this is what they are masters of, is the weekend service is extremely impressive and they have talented, charismatic, winsome, affable people that welcome you at the airport, take you to nice hotels, feed you nice meals, provide a green room in the back with all the amenities that you need, and a wonderful platform where they stand up and even clap for you. Great music. So here's the point, I do believe there are mega churches that are healthy. But the only way to know this is to have someone investigate them, not for the purpose of exposing anything, but for the sole purpose of finding out what's really going on. And it would take three to six months of someone who's skilled at knowing how to find a culture. This is what Edgar Schein does, he'll go to places like let's just say IBM, and work there for nine months. And it takes that long to find what is actually in the soil feeding the place. So there's no megachurch pastor, or leaders, or any church is going to tell you that what's driving them is ambition, and competition. They want to win the battle of the best church in the neighborhood or in the city or in the state or in the United States. They will never say that, but that is one of the drivers. And it takes a long time to figure out that that's what's actually at work when fundamental decisions are made in the church. So I would say I've never had the opportunity to actually examine a mega church at that level. I do know, a mega church model that the theory is that it's small groups that meet on Sunday. That's the kind of mega church model has the capacity to be working at character formation. But I can't say that I looked at the people I've met there have been very impressive, but that's what a famous pastor in Canada that was his model as well. JULIE ROYS  19:26 Bruxy Cavey. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:27 Yeah, that's a lot of problems. JULIE ROYS  19:29 Yeah. And he comes from Brethren In Christ Anabaptist background which is my background. I grew up in that so at that was very sad for me to see that happen. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:39 Well, I endorsed a lot of his books so not that long before this story. Yeah, I've known Bruxy a long time. Sad story. JULIE ROYS  19:47 Yeah, it is and Brethren in Christ churches from my at least from my growing up, I haven't been in one for many years because we don't really have them in the Midwest, but I felt like they were phenomenal at character formation, spiritual formation. You talk about three pivotal priorities–and one you've touched on–but I want to do a little bit of a deep dive because we're talking about emphasis on character, not ability. I mean, that seems like one of those like, Duh, this is basic, right? I mean, we should be all about character. But why is it that this is such a misplaced priority? Like we really are not looking at character in our churches, and we find, pastor after pastor after pastor falling into scandal and into disrepute, because of character flaws? Why is this? SCOT McKNIGHT  20:39 I think, let's say the pastor on the platform is a different beast altogether than ordinary people in the church. But those aren't the same things. The character issues, you're expecting people to hire a pastor to be able to perform on that platform every Sunday, and put butts in the seats and bills in the plate, and baptisms in the pool. And buildings on the campus. That's what they hire him for. But I would say there's a couple things. Number one is our church is, let's say, measurement devices, or success measurements are not shaped by that at all. A second thing is, it's extremely difficult to measure spiritual growth in a true character formation. And I think I said two, but I got a third one. And it takes a lot of pastors. A lot. You can't have one pastor working with the transformation of 50 people. They can't do that. They don't have that kind of time. That's why the small group model has the capacity. If you don't have pinheads running the small group. If you have people who are Mr. Rogers, like who get to work with people in that small group. We just have a lot of things distorted in the wrong direction. And they start in the wrong location. JULIE ROYS  22:06 And this is the challenge, isn't it? Like you said in the book, if you're going to transform from a toxic culture to a TOV one, what you've seen is that it takes minimum seven years, probably three years before you see this change start to happen. And often the church will shrink. In Oak Hills, they lost what 1000 people? LAURA BARRINGER  22:28 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  22:28 Yeah. And I said this at the beginning of the RESTORE conference, to the pastors who were there, because we talked about, you know, a lot of church hurt at these conferences. And I did hear from one pastor who came and this was at the previous year, and he said, “Yeah, it was really, really powerful conference, but I kind of got the feeling as a pastor that maybe we're the bad guys.” And so I wanted to make sure this one to say, “No, we love you. We're so glad you're here. And the fact that you as a pastor, invested in coming to hear from wounded souls, about the way that they've been hurting the Church says something about you and your character and why you're here. And you're exactly the kind of pastors that we need in our churches.” Yet. I think if I were doing a conference on how you can grow your church overnight, I wouldn't have enough seats, if I had a proven method of making your church double overnight. But what you're talking about here is, here's a path to making your church maybe smaller, maybe less successful in the world's eyes, and trying to get people to buy into this model. But in the end, there's greater fulfillment isn't there in knowing that you're actually producing people who are furthering the kingdom of God? Because you're actually modeling Christ to people. It's a powerful thing. But how do you get people to buy into that? SCOT McKNIGHT  23:48 Well, when you were talking, I'm sitting here thinking of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with his renegade subversive hideout seminaries in northern Germany and Prussia, and the impact of Dallas Willard on someone like James Smith, where it was over time, with one person working with another person. And that's a different calling. And it's not like that's what we hire people in churches to do. You know, the last Barna book I read by David Kinnaman, was on pastors. And I think the number was 12% of pastors enjoy discipleship. LAURA BARRINGER  24:34 That low? SCOT McKNIGHT  24:35 Yeah, it may be lower than that, but I think it was in the book, Pastor Paul. But that is not what they see themselves doing. They see themselves preaching and leading and administrating and organizing. And some of them writing books, and traveling around speaking at conferences. That's what they see themselves doing. But if you work in Navigators or you work in Campus Crusade or InterVarsity on a campus and colleges, which are some of the most effective TOV institutions in the world. They are all about working with young college students and helping them deal with the fact that they got drunk last night, and we got to find out what's going on. And they disciple people. And it takes a lot of time. And in four years, those students, a lot of them want to come back and do the same to other college students. That's the multiplication principle of Navigators. And Navigators is all about one on one, JULIE ROYS  25:37 And what virtues should we be looking for? And should we be cultivating? LAURA BARRINGER  25:42 Theologian. SCOT McKNIGHT  25:43 (laughter) There's a couple of ways to look at this. And I think we need to take the major virtue passages in the Bible. So look at the 10 commandments. Alright, look at the book of Psalms, pick a couple of prophets and say, What are they trying to inculcate in people? And how they should live? Then look at the Sermon on the Mount. Look at Paul's list of the fruit of the Spirit. Look at what Paul says about love in First Corinthians 13. Look at First John's teachings. Avoid Jude because he's too hot, a little angry all the time. So and just realize that there are different ways to package this over time to frame what virtues we want to talk about. Now, there's ways of summarizing, let's say, we want to be followers of Jesus. That's a summary statement. Or we want to be characterized by love. Or if you're in the Puritan movement, you want to be characterized by godliness. And that means you read the Puritans, and you subscribe to Banner of Truth  Trust, and all this, and these become your heroes. Jonathan Edwards is the guy. But all these terms are summary statements that need to be unfolded. And so the virtues, the character that forms these virtues, so that they become sort of instincts can be framed in different ways. But all those passages can help us shape the kinds of virtues we're looking for. JULIE ROYS  27:23 So we have character is one of our priorities. Another one is TOV power. And I have to say, when you hear that word power, and you've experienced abuse of power, just that word power, can be scary. So how can we tell if power is being harnessed and used in a good way, as opposed to a toxic way? LAURA BARRINGER  27:49 Yeah, this is a big one for us. After A Church Called TOV was published, we received letter after letter after letter, we wrote a lot about sexual abuse, we heard mostly from victims of power abuse, we would get these letters every week, my dad would get some I would get some. And it was story after story of people who had been wounded, mostly by pastors who had misused their power. And the people had tried to stand up for themselves or those who found the courage to maybe try to talk to elders. It was like they didn't get very far because people didn't believe them, or it was done behind closed doors. So people say, Well, I haven't seen him do that. That's not how he is. That's not my experience. And that was so painful, because it discounts the reality of what another person endured. So this was a really big one for us when we went to write PIVOT. All of us have power, right? Like, I have power, I'm a teacher, so I have the power to influence those under me and how people use their power is a measure of their character of who they are as a person. SCOT McKNIGHT  29:09 People have power. And anybody who exercises a decision, who is a leader, has a right to make those decisions. And people underneath them, I guess, have a right to bellyache about them as well. I mean, that's part of the complaint culture that workplaces develop. But to me, one of the signs of power desire is when someone who is your leader makes a decision that you don't like how do you respond? Do you manipulate? Do you gossip? Do you attack? Do you get other people in your corner so that you can eventually destroy that person's reputation and character? That's a very important element of power, in institutions, is a complaint culture that forms. All narcissists have no self awareness of the power that they have, and what they are doing to people around them. They have lack of self awareness. So they think what they're doing is right all the time. And when they're criticized, they DARVO. “That's not what I was doing.” Well, yes, you did. That's the impact you made on it. So they lacked that awareness.  So it needs to be revealed by people being able to have a safe place to be able to express what they've experienced from a person. I've been in institutions where presidents were removed. I'm at one right now. And the former president, there were too many people who were released, and then stories were released about that person. And The Roys Report reported about it. JULIE ROYS  30:53 Yes we did. SCOT McKNIGHT  30:54 Not very good news for our seminary. But those were symptoms, signs that something's going on. And it was not a safe place for people to be able to register their complaints. And it didn't seem to be achieving anything, I think power is going to happen. People get to do this, who are leaders. They have power. So they exercise their power, and not everybody's going to agree with it, and people get to interpret it. And they can be dead wrong, and be very convincing, even though they're wrong. But at the same time, there has to be some sort of device mechanism, TOV tool, that gives people some indications of how that person is using power. And I think it's possible to reveal some of this stuff. But I think it's impossible to change a narcissist. JULIE ROYS  31:52 So you have to have somebody in positions of leadership, who obviously have the character and wants to use their power in a right way. And one of the things that that you do in this book, which I think is really helpful, is you not only have questions at the end of each chapter, but you do have assessment tools, where you can begin to assess some of these things to say, Okay, this is a toxic culture, this is a TOV culture, this is a good way of using power. And maybe not so good way of using power. It's a beautiful thing, when you see somebody in power, use that power to protect others to draw out someone who's quiet, who wouldn't normally speak, to be able to notice the weak and the vulnerable and to use the power to protect and to help. SCOT McKNIGHT  32:39 I think people who use power well, are not recognized as using power. Because something happens and you go, Oh, that was really nice. And you didn't realize that that leader decided to elevate somebody in a way that empowered them. So when they're empowering others, you usually don't recognize that they're using power. It's when they violate the power. A good umpire in a baseball game is unrecognized. And when you're talking about the umpires, it's because they screwed up. They messed up stuff. You notice it. “That was terrible!” And I think that's the same way with leaders. If you don't recognize their leadership, and things are functioning pretty well, you probably got a pretty good leader. JULIE ROYS  33:33 That's good. Yeah, I would say the number one problem of most of the bad leaders that I report on, obviously, the character issues there and everything, but the way it often comes out is in hypocrisy. They're just not living, what they say they believe. And you make a big point of one of the priorities is you got to model. You got to be the example of what you want your culture to be. And I love this, one of the people that you talk about modeling this goodness is, as you said, Mr. Rogers. Explain how Mr. Rogers is modeling exactly what he's teaching. LAURA BARRINGER  34:14 Well, when we went to write A Church Called TOV, I kept sending my dad examples like, what about this pastor or this one? And he kept saying, no, no, no. And he said, We need somebody that's dead. (laguhter) Because–that's exactly what he said–they have to be dead. Because there's too many scandals that erupt. And sure enough, we have a story in A Church Called TOV, that when it went to the next printing, we had to remove because the pastor, allegations etc. So we use Mr. Rogers as our example. Mr. Rogers, from everything we have read about him, the man that you saw on TV was the man that everybody knew. He was patient. He was gentle. He was just as kind in person as he was on the television screen. He would get distracted by children, he would tell Oprah, I'll come on your show, but you can't have children in the audience because I will be distracted, I will be I know that I will be, all of my attention will go to them the vulnerable. That's what my heart and soul is, is for. And so when you said hypocrisy, that's the opposite of Mr. Rogers, there are some beautiful stories that we recited in the book about him that he is as good a man as he appeared to be. JULIE ROYS  35:35 Hmm. And there was one in the book, I thought was so touching about a man whose wife . . . was the wife, the employee, I believe, or was LAURA BARRINGER  35:44 The wife was the employee. JULIE ROYS  35:46 Yeah. So the wife was the employee, and she died. It sounds like young, got cancer and, and Mr. Rogers would show up and visit, you know, visited on a regular basis. And the day she died, he he knocked on the door and said, I just had a sense that, that you needed me today, or you needed to be visited today. And here, she was dying. And he came in and cried with him, you know, as his wife was dying and prayed with him. And the husband said, he never talked about it. Nobody ever heard that story about Mr. Rogers. LAURA BARRINGER  36:21 He didn't get up and talk about the ways that he volunteered or helped people. I also love the story about the reporter who maybe this is in A Church Called TOV. No. I remember I don't remember no. He said, “Do you know, who is the most important person in the world to me right now?” And the reporter was like, Who who is the most important person? Mr. Rogers said, “You, I'm talking to you, you have my full attention. You're the most important person in the world to me right now.” And the reporter was, like, stunned that a celebrity would spend that much time and give him that much attention for I think he said an hour which was unheard of with celebrities, interviews. JULIE ROYS  37:05 Well, and as a reporter, you're just happy when somebody wants to talk to you because most of the people I talk to, they don't want to talk to me. SCOT McKNIGHT  37:13 But Julie, you know the issues of the people that that we want to find out more about, that have become celebrities that Katelyn Beaty has written about. They're there. And you just think they're just amazing because of the platform persona, that they've presented in their pastoral sermons. You just go, “I want to be like that person.” Okay, so the tendency is to make those the examples. And all you see about them is the presentation on the platform. And that's why I said to Laura, we can't take living examples now. I mean, yes, I understood what she was doing. And she had some wonderful stories, and they they truly are probably good people. But because I'm older, you know, I think when when I wrote when we wrote TOV I was probably 65. JULIE ROYS  38:10 A whippersnapper. SCOT McKNIGHT  38:11 Yeah, I was young compared to the day.  here were people that we wanted, you know, that I could easily say they were fantastic people that in the last five years, I would say, Well, maybe that's not so true. So it was important for me I finally said, Laura, we got to find dead people whose whose stories are unimpeachable. But I have found stories of people that I have exalted in my years as a professor. I've written I've used their names. And I discovered later that they were horrific people. And nobody knew. Nobody was talking. Because even in those days, you didn't talk about things like that. We, I mean, when Kennedy was a president, we didn't talk about what was going on in the White House, behind closed doors. Now we know these things. So that's why we went with dead people. But but nobody questions Mr. Rogers. And so we used him in both books. LAURA BARRINGER  39:09 I remember that–my dad's texts, “Nope, only dead people.” JULIE ROYS  39:13 Problem is even dead people, Ravi Zacharias that didn't come out, you know, until after he was dead. But I mean, obviously, a little better if they've had a little bit of time, between their life and some study of the kind of person they were, SCOT McKNIGHT  39:30 I would also say that nobody's perfect. Not many people are like Mr. Rogers. So people with warts and all is not the worst thing. David is hardly a beautiful character in all the pages of the Bible. The apostle Paul can lash out at people. I don't know about Peter. Mary seems to be a good person, other than the fact that she's trying to tell Jesus what to do and how to be a messiah. So we just we can't expect perfection but we expect a certain level of maturity that we can count on. And we may find out that Pastor got really mad one day and said something he shouldn't have, but he admitted it. JULIE ROYS  40:11 That's a big one to me is Do you hear the pastor admitting wrong, asking for forgiveness, because that needs to be a regular practice. Let's talk about some of these practices of transforming cultures. And you talk about there being a transformational agent. Normally, when you see these kinds of transformations happening, and as well, a transformational coalition. SCOT McKNIGHT  40:35 Julie, let's just say you realize your church has got some stuff in the soil that needs to be healed. Alright. And you go through a process of discovery. And you come up with five things that we need to work on in the next five years. All right, I think that's a pretty normal process. I don't believe that the pastor should be in charge of all this. Now, in most churches, I believe the pastor will be in charge of this because the pastor is in charge of everything. But I think it should be handed off to a transformation agent, who is independent, and can get more honest responses from people than the pastor can, unless the transformation agent is just a flying monkey, as the as the words are used, or a mole for the pastor. If it's a person of character, they're going to be trusted, and the pastor is going to have to listen to the results. But I think it's good to have a transformation agent whose responsibility it is to organize administrate, to evaluate, and to pass the information on so that it can be implemented in a really good way to the leadership of the church. But it can't just be one person or two people. And it's not based on it's not a bunch of sermons, LAURA BARRINGER  41:52 I don't want to skip over something really important that we learned from Edgar Schein, again, the major researcher on this topic of transforming culture, is he said, You can't transform anything until your problem is clearly defined and crystal clear. That's what led us to write the TOV tool so that it can help groups or whomever is taking it churches, groups, teams, clearly identify areas of strength, and then areas where growth is important. And Edgar Schein said, that's like the most important step of all is listening. And that might take a lot of conversation and a lot of authenticity and hearing maybe things about yourself, you don't want to hear. But that's like one of the most important steps is identifying, “we are not putting people above the reputation of our institution.” Or, “it seems like we're really good at truth telling, but we're not offering a lot of justice to the wounded.” So every organization is different. But those conversations where you unearth, what are the strengths, and where do we need to grow in these areas of like that we created the TOV tool out of our circle of TOV from the first book. It just cannot be skipped over. And then that can be used by the transformation agent and the coalition to have some data and listening as they move forward or attempt to move forward. SCOT McKNIGHT  43:28 And I would add to the coalition is you can't transform a culture because you're a persuasive speaker, with a couple of friends in your church that are all doing this. It takes a culture's ownership to get there. So our theory is okay, we got a transformation agent and a couple people, they studied the Bible, I won't get into all that, then it grows to a group of five. And then it grows to a group of 10. And then it splits into a couple more groups that grow to a group of 30 or 40. And you're starting to build a critical mass of people who are committed to this idea and working it out. But they're contributing to the idea. So it's not like I got a great idea. Now we're gonna go implement it. It is, I have an idea. Let's work on this together. And before long once you get 50 to 75 people involved in it, there's ownership but the idea has now grown into something that is healthier, stronger, deeper, wider. It starts to get ownership, if you have a fairly sizable church, before you go to the church. JULIE ROYS  44:36 And I think what's to me exciting about listening about some churches that did this. And even hearing you talk about it, this is a very organic thing that happens as people are discussing this and something starts to grow. I mean, basically, this culture begins to reform as people are reforming. Right? And they're beginning to model it, and they're beginning to change, and so then you begin to see this transformation happen. And then hopefully you're moving into a different culture. Right? And the congregation becomes a different kind of culture.  And those who quite frankly, don't buy into it, leave. I mean, I remember the power of that when we did youth ministry, like we just said, from the beginning, we don't do entertainment, the world does that better than us. But if you want to come and worship and pray, like, we're really going to be a part of that, and studying the Bible, and the ones that weren't interested in that would just fall off. And then we would gather a group of people who really wanted to do that, and it became our culture. But it takes that kind of time. But you talk about then the last part of your book about the powers and the congregational culture powers, I thought it was really interesting, especially Laura, when you were talking about kind of the practices that led to a culture at Willow Creek when you were there. And then you contrasted that with these practices that led to a culture at this Quaker church that was completely different. Talk about that, because I thought, it's such a great example and a contrast, because we often don't think about what we're doing when we're doing it, and how this is creating a culture. But I think, as I was reading it, it made me think about things that I'm doing, and what kind of culture does that create? So yeah, talk about that. LAURA BARRINGER  46:29 So I didn't really realize what the culture of Willow Creek was, until I left Willow Creek. And being out of it allowed me to see and I'm not criticizing it, I'm just saying like, factually, there are a lot of people that attend, they put people up on stage, that walk through the campus with bodyguards. And there's sort of a feel of like haves have nots, or the whole service leads up to what the speaker is going to say. And you know, weeks ahead of time, who's going to be speaking and like Mark, and I'd be the first to tell you, like, we got into a terrible rut at Willow, we were like, Oh, we don't really like that speaker. So we're not going to go this week, you know, our neighbors would be like, come for a bike ride. Okay, we'll do that instead, like, we were just consumers of a show. So we left Willow Creek and experienced the Anglican tradition, which is very different. But then what I wrote about in the book, I tried to get into less Twitter fights or whatever X fights? JULIE ROYS  47:37 It's weird. It's just weird. LAURA BARRINGER  47:39 I know. One day, I just wandered into this, like delightful conversation with a Quaker pastor. And I remember his name, because we have a family friend of the same name, Scott Wagner, and he posted pictures, and I don't know anything about the Quakers other than what I've read, you know, just a little bit. So I'm not I don't know where they stand theologically at all. But his pictures were so startling to me. They were getting ready for a meeting. And the chairs were set up in a circle. And it was just in this like, small room with wooden floors. And after coming out of the Willow Creek tradition was like, well, where's the speaker gonna stand? But that wasn't what the goal was at all. It was like a meeting where everybody was seen as equals. And I don't know, it seems like is that how the early church was? That's how I picture people in my head, like, sitting in a circle together. Not like all of us staring at a person on stage. JULIE ROYS  48:44 I have to say, being in a house church now and experiencing meeting in homes, and we haven't had a sermon. You know, in the past 18 months since I've been going to our house church. There's no sermon. We're opening the Bible. And there's a facilitator and we dig in together, and we study the Bible together. And I just love it. I mean, I come away every Sunday, it's like, wow, that was rich, that was really good. And I've gone to a church too where we were in the round, in fact, is one of your colleagues there, Dave Fitch, his church that we attended, where we would have the chairs all in a circle, I love that, I think in the Anglican tradition, instead of the sermon being the highlight, really, the table is. Eucharist. That's the highlight, and that communicates a value. So I think looking at what are we doing in the service, and I have wondered about this. And to me, the fact that we make a man on stage preaching, which is very heavy head knowledge. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but I'm, I often wonder if that's sort of a post enlightenment way of thinking that the pinnacle of the service is the sermon? SCOT McKNIGHT  49:56 It happened at the reformation that turned the sermon into a major, the major focus. The early church didn't have sermons. LAURA BARRINGER  50:04 They had letters, right? They would hear, read letters? JULIE ROYS  50:07 And at that one sermon where, what is it Eutychus?  Fell out the window and died. You know, SCOT McKNIGHT  50:12 Paul was talking, he was talking. But I mean, it was a it was a house church, you're talking about a normal sized living room with maybe an atrium with some water in the middle. And people around it talking and someone instructors instruction. There'd be the reading of a letter. There'd be the exposition of a psalm or something. And eventually, they would read scriptures and then preach about or teach about it. But it was a fellowship, where there was instruction, there was prayer, there was worship, there was caring for one another. And that's where the church got started. Jesus didn't preach sermons in the houses, he told stories, parables, it's where the parables came from. JULIE ROYS  50:59 Well, obviously, there's a lot of things that we can do to sort of jumpstart transformation. We've talked about some of those. But I love that you kind of land this book with where the power really comes from. And it's from the Holy Spirit, and it's from God's grace. So talk about the importance of relying on the Spirit, and grace, so that we're not manufacturing something but we're actually being led by God. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:31 When we were writing this book, I told Laura, probably 10 times, every chapter could be the first chapter. They were all interlocking. LAURA BARRINGER  51:39 We had trouble ordering the chapters. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:42 And theologically, I wanted to begin with that theological ending, but I know that just sounds like I'm a seminary professor. And we've got to get people interested in the topic first. So the neuralgics is what it's called sometimes. So yeah, I think the example of Christ, the significance of the Holy Spirit being open to the Spirit, the power of God's grace, which is operative, in the example of Christ, and in the power of the Spirit, all those things are what ultimately is responsible for transformation of an individual person, and of a community, a church. If we think it's just mechanics, and structure, and system and program, it's gonna go dry. But when it is the dynamic of the Spirit of God, leading us, prompting us, directing us, making us change, making us think of new things, we're in the right place. LAURA BARRINGER  52:39 That's what I love about the story of Oak Hills is that they say we felt this sense of dis equilibrium in our soul. And they surrendered to what they felt the Spirit was telling them and leading them. And they followed. And I think they would say, the transformation was worth it. Rather than having consumers, they were discipling people to grow in Christ. And they were like, we just steadily pushed against the culture, and taught people how to live like Jesus. That was it. JULIE ROYS  53:12 And I believe that Jesus said, his last words were not to go and make big churches or converts. But yeah, to make disciples, that is, what the church should be doing. And so I just really appreciate what you guys have put together here in this book, and that you're really moving people, I think, towards something beautiful and something good. Any last thoughts or final encouragement for those who might be thinking of embarking on this journey of trying to transform or are in the midst of it. And I mean, as I said, at the beginning, it's not for the faint of heart, it's not going to be easy. It could be a seven year or even longer process, any encouragement for them right now. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:00 I would say go with it. There's going to be many times when you'd like to return back to where you started and say, we'll just go back to where it was working. Roll with it. Because it's going to be different for every group. But it's worth it to pursue this direction, to see what God can do in your church and in your institution, over time, as you begin to focus on, let's say, the power of God's grace to transform us into being people who are like Jesus Christ. JULIE ROYS  54:34 And that's pretty exciting. LAURA BARRINGER  54:36 Amen. JULIE ROYS  54:37 Well, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you and appreciate the ministry that you're having and the impact that you're having. This has been extremely helpful. So thank you. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:48 Thank you, Julie. LAURA BARRINGER  54:49 Thank you for having us. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:51 Thanks, Laura. LAURA BARRINGER  54:52 Thanks, Dad. JULIE ROYS  54:54 Scot and Laura, thank you so much for the gift of this book—and the gift of your time today. This has been so helpful . . . And if you'd like a copy of Scot & Laura's new book, Pivot, we would be happy to send you one for a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report. Again, we don't have any large donors or advertising. We simply have you—the people who care about exposing toxic churches and leaders, and then encouraging them to transform into TOV ones. So, if you'd like to support our work and get the book Pivot, just go to JulieRoys.com/donate. Also, I want to let you know that next week, I'll be releasing another talk from Restore by Carson Weitnauer on Disillusionment and Hope. This is an extremely vulnerable and moving talk where Carson tells his profound disillusionment when he discovered the truth about Ravi Zacharias. At the time, Carson was a director at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries—and Ravi had been his hero. This is such a painfully honest, yet hopeful, talk—and one you won't want to miss. So, be watching for that. We'll release the talk as both an audio podcast and a video at my YouTube channel. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you won't miss any of these episodes! And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then, please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today! Hope you were blessed and encouraged!   Read more

This podcast is dedicated to the memory of Edgar Schein, a former professor at the MIT Sloan School of Management and author of ‘Process Consultation' who sadly died four days before this podcast was recorded.  He made notable contributions in the field of organizational development in many areas, including career development, group process consultation, and organizational culture.  Professor Schein's influence has extended into many other ‘helping' domains, including Educational Psychology and Coaching Psychology.  His valued legacy will live on, while we send condolences to his family and loved ones. In this episode, Dr Natalie Lancer discusses with Mark Adams, Prof. Christian van Nieuwerburgh and Dr. Manfusa Shams how coaching benefits students and staff alike. We highlight the two streams of practice in coaching in education, one involving educators using coaching tools and models from an educational perspective, and the other involving coaching psychologists using psychological knowledge to support individuals. We discuss the specific ways in which coaching psychology can make a positive difference in schools and education. We explore: Why is coaching psychology in education important? What do we know about coaching in education today? What impact can coaching have on students and teachers? How does coaching psychology interface with educational psychology? To what extent is grounding coaching practice in appropriate theories and models important? What are the key considerations in making coaching initiatives successful in schools? How do the different methods of delivery (external/internal coaches, peer-to-peer) affect coaching outcomes? How can coaching psychology help build capacity within school communities? What is the value of reflective coaching spaces for leaders in schools? What are some key current priorities for research and the application of coaching psychology in education? There are a growing number of pathways into coaching in education and a variety of ways that coaching initiatives can be implements in schools. Coaching in education can also be used to help address mental health and well-being issues in schools and we discuss its future potential uses in this context. Our guests today are: Mark Adams is a Chartered Educational Psychologist and a Chartered Coaching Psychologist with over 25 years' experience. Mark is the Director of Aspen Psychology Services, an independent psychology service, based in Bristol. He was a teacher and has worked as an Educational Psychologist since 2003, supporting schools and families with individual children's needs. He is the author of Coaching Psychology in Schools (2015), a collection of case studies demonstrating how psychology-informed coaching can support enhanced performance, development and wellbeing in schools. Mark recently co-authored a book chapter on how coaching can support staff and pupil mental health, and wellbeing in education (Watts & Florance, 2021).  Prof. Christian van Nieuwerburgh is an academic, consultant and executive coach. He is Professor of Coaching and Positive Psychology at the Centre for Positive Health Sciences at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland and Global Director for Growth Coaching International, a provider of coach training and consultancy for the education sector.  Christian has written extensively in the fields of coaching and positive psychology and is the author of An Introduction to Coaching Skills: A Practical Guide and co-author of From Surviving to Thriving: A Student's Guide to Feeling and Doing Well at University. Dr. Manfusa Shams is a Senior Fellow of the UK Advance Higher Education Academy and a Chartered Psychologist, coach, mentor, and supervisor. She is the series editor for 'Coaching Psychology for Professional Practice' and consultant editor for ‘The Coaching Psychologist' and has recently published ‘Psychology in coaching practice (2022)'. She was the guest editor for the Special Issue: Coaching in education of International Coaching Psychology Review. She holds academic positions at the Open University and Reading University. Your host, Dr Natalie Lancer, is a Chartered Coaching Psychologist, and British Psychological Society (BPS) Registered Supervisor. She is the Chair of the BPS's Division of Coaching Psychology and an accredited member of the Association for Coaching. She is the host of this podcast series and invites you to email any comments to docp-tcppod@bps.org.uk https://www.bps.org.uk/member-networks/division-coaching-psychology © British Psychological Society 2023

Although well-intentioned, and possibly even helpful, giving advice is more about us than the recipient. Resources Parker Palmer on Advice Advice on Advice Humble Inquiry by Edgar Schein The post BOO389 – Giving Advice to Feel Good appeared first on Marcia Hyatt.

We're joined this week by father-daughter team, Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, co-authors of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.   Their book was inspired by the events at Willow Creek Church, prompting them to explore toxic church cultures and the need for change. They contrast toxic church cultures with tov cultures (tov meaning "good" in Hebrew).   In toxic church cultures such as Mars Hill or Willow Creek, the marks include narcissism, fear, institution creep, false narratives, loyalty culture, celebrity culture, and a focus on leadership culture. On the other hand, tov cultures are characterized by empathy, grace, people-first approach, telling the truth, justice, service culture, and Christlikeness culture.   Their book has provided language and hope for those who have experienced toxicity in churches, giving a voice to the wounded resistors. In their upcoming book, Pivot, Scot and Laura focus on the "how" of building tov cultures.   We hope you'll find that this conversation continues our goal of not only exposing the characteristics of toxic church culture but also offering hope for restoration and the rebuilding of a different and healthier community of believers.   Listener resources: Check out A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer Pre-order Scot and Laura's follow up book, Pivot: the Priorities, Practices and Powers that Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture , coming in September 2023 Read Laura Barringer's article, “Willow Creek's Core Meeting: A Response” in Christianity Today. More works referenced in this episode: Lectures on Calvinism by Abraham Kuyper; H. Richard Niebuhr; David Brooks; Organizational Culture and Leadership by Edgar Schein. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

Learning Deming is like seeing the world through a different lens. In this episode, Bill Bellows uses various examples to show us how powerful that new vision can be.  TRANSCRIPT 0:00:03.4 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with Bill Bellows, who has spent 30 years helping people apply Dr. Deming's ideas to become aware of how their thinking is holding them back from their biggest opportunities. The topic for today is Vision Therapy. Bill, take it away. 0:00:29.9 BB: Welcome back, Andrew. Yes, I wrote an article, gosh, maybe 10 years ago now for the Lean Management Journal under the title Vision Therapy: Shift from Big Problems to Great Opportunities. And in the article, I talk about vision therapy - as getting glasses is one form of vision therapy or perhaps you need surgery on your eyes. I also talked about therapy our son once went through which is hand-eye coordination. And all of that is leading up to a vision exercise I put together 1998 timeframe and was inspired by a number of things. One is I had read a book written by David Kerns, former CEO of Xerox, and it's called 'Prophets in the Dark.' And he shared a story in there of a senior executive who had come from Ford. And he said, this guy named Frank Pip, who went on to become an outstanding leader within Xerox. If there was... I get the feeling if there was a hall of fame within Xerox, David Kearns would be in it. Frank Pip would be in it. 0:02:02.0 BB: And quite likely Barry Bebb, who's a mentor of mine, would be in it. And others, and... Anyway, relative to Frank Pip: Pip started his career at Ford and he got to the point of being a plant manager for the Ford final assembly plant. And there was an account he gave to Kearns of whenever they did final assembly of automobiles, rubber mallets were used to bang the mating parts together. They didn't quite fit. And every now and then, two parts would go together without a mallet. And the Ford, at Pip's plant, they called the parts that assembled without a mallet Snap-fit - everything else required mallets and mostly it was mallets. But every now and then there'd be Snap-fit. And then he explains how they, Pip was inspired to go off and buy competitor's cars for the purpose of buying them, taking them apart, putting 'em back together. And unfortunately, Pip died a few years ago, and I... And it never dawned on me to reach out to him. I thought by the time I heard of him, it was maybe too late then, it turns out I had plenty of time to reach out to him. So I don't know what inspired him, but I get the feeling he was routinely buying competitors' cars, taking 'em apart, putting 'em together, just alike, and they assembled just like theirs, just like theirs, just like theirs. 0:03:26.7 BB: And then there was a pickup truck they took apart, put together, and never used a mallet. It was, in Ford's language, 100% Snap-fit. And Pip was so astounded by the results he had the assembly team take it apart again and put it back together again 'cause he couldn't believe it was a 100% Snap-fit. Well, when he found that it was 100% Snap-fit twice, now he thought, "Holy cow," he calls up corporate, had someone come out from Dearborn, which was Ford's corporate headquarters, and I don't know if it was his boss, whoever the person was, came out very, very senior. And he says, they met with the team. The team's answering his questions. And as I explain it to people, you can imagine what it's like when somebody from corporate comes out. That's typically in my experience, somebody coming from corporate that's either, they're there to celebrate something or it's a bad day or it's a routine, but it... Anyway, it's a big deal for him. And as Pip's account was when the plant manager, when this executive came out from Dearborn and heard this account first hand, blah, blah, blah, his comment to the team was "The customer will never notice the difference." 0:04:38.1 BB: And in the book it said Pip was so frustrated with that attitude that he quit 'cause he thought, "We have uncovered something and this guy is treating it as no big deal.” Well, then I point out to people that was the late '60s and which was at the beginning of Ford, I'm sorry, of Toyota selling cars in the States. It was a Toyota pickup truck. So I just... I shared this story in part for this term, Snap-fit. Well, then in the late '90s I was teaching a graduate class in quality management at the Kellogg School of Management, Kellogg Business School, Northwestern University, which I checked very recently. It's the number two business school in the United States. And I'm teaching a class there. Through some interesting occurrences, I was invited to teach this class there. And I wrote up this contrast between the very simple black and white model. And we've been talking black and white models and I was using a black and white model of organizations which were about continuous improvement versus black and white thinking in that kind of contrast. And I gave them pairs of words and I said... 0:06:16.5 BB: You could have "good versus bad" - is one model. What I was showing 'em is, is black and white words versus continuum words versus relative words. I said, there's, let's see the good versus bad, and then that would be a black and white. And I said, "If you take the good versus bad and put it into a continuum, what would it be? And people would joke, "Gooder." And I said, "Well, faster, it could be tall versus short - taller, cheap versus expensive - cheaper." And I was using those pairs, getting them a sense of relative thinking versus black and white thinking. And I put out the word Lean, L-E-A-N and I said, "Let's say you don't know anything about the word. In which category does this word apply? Does it fit into the black and white mold or the continuum mold?" And a first of them would say it's shades-of-gray thinking. And I said, "Well, why?" And they come up with explanations and finally one guy says, he says, "It's black and white thinking." And I said, "Why?" He says, "There's no 'er' in the end." 0:07:36.4 BB: Lean, Lean. It's right? And then there's a woman who pushed back on that. And she said, "No, I disagree." She said, "You can continuously eliminate waste." And I said, "How far are you gonna go with that?" And she said, "Until there's no waste." And I said, and I was trying to point out is, well then we're done. I said, "Where is the continuous improvement, the continuum thinking behind being done?" And I said, [laughter] what'd I tell her, saying to her, I said, "So if you're done, well then what do you do?" She said, "Well, you continuously eliminate waste until you're done." Well, then I said, "Well, describe to me what an organization looks like that has no waste. Is what does it look like?" She says, "I don't know." Well, I think those two things inspired me in a class later that year, this is 1998, to throw out as an exercise, a vision, and I call it vision therapy exercise. 0:08:38.0 BB: And I said to them, "Yeah, I want you to take a piece of paper, divide it into half, into half, left and right, and then top and bottom. So there's four quadrants." And I said, "Label on the left hand side Blue Pen for Blue Pen Company. The right hand side for Red Pen as in Red Pen Company." And I held up, I would have these transparency markers. I had eight different colors. And I pulled out one, which is blue. And I said, "Imagine each of you have recently visited a company which makes blue pens, only Blue Pens. And every week I'd buy one that costs a dollar." And, I pulled out a Red Pen. Why red? 'cause I wanted something the other end of the spectrum. So I had eight different colors to choose from. So one was blue, one was red. Later somebody said to me, "Why did you pick blue versus red?" 0:09:31.2 BB: And I said, "Well, Rocketdyne was owned by Boeing at the time." And when I looked at the colors, you know a lot of the, advertising the logos of Boeing were blue and white. And I thought, blue is the company I have in mind for one side, and then something not blue, not green, not brown, red is the other side. So I said, "So imagine you've recently visited a Blue Pen Company, that only makes blue pens. You buy one every week, it costs a dollar. When you need a Red Pen, you buy that from the Red Pen Company, and they only make red, you buy it, it cost a dollar." So I had them create this - left and right. Imagine you've recently visited both organizations for two weeks each. All right? And then I said on the, you've got a left side and a right side, one's red, one's blue, top versus bottom. 0:10:24.1 BB: I said, "So imagine for the first week as you're visiting these two companies, nobody's there. So give us some additional information. What I want you to do is describe the physical layout of both organizations." And this ties in really well with... So my idea, as I shared in a recent session from Edgar Schein who had passed away back in January. He was an organizational therapist for most of his career at MIT. And in his book, 'Organizational Culture and Leadership,' he talked about organizational culture can be analyzed at three levels. And I didn't know about these levels back in '98 and found about them later. And I found it fits really well. And he said the first level is artifacts. And he says, I just wanna read, he says, "The constructed environment of an organization, including its architecture, technology, office layout, dress code, visible or audible behavior patterns, public documents like employee orientation, handbooks." 0:11:27.8 BB: And, what Schein says is that those artifacts come from values, the reasons and/or rationalizations of why members behave the way they do. And values come from assumptions. And again, I'm quoting from Schein, "Typically an unconscious pattern that determines how group members perceive, think and feel." And again, I didn't know about those at the time, but going back to the exercise, there's a left side and a right side. One is Blue Pen Company, one is Red Pen Company. The top two cells are, what would you see physically as Schein would say: what are the artifacts of these two organizations? And all you know so far is that one makes blue, one makes red, they both cost a dollar. And I buy one from each. Well then in the bottom two cells, what I want you to imagine is, so for the first two weeks, you visit both organizations, write down what are the physical characteristics of both organizations for the bottom two cells. 0:12:25.5 BB: And I apologize for coming back to this. In the first week you visit, there's no one there but you, no one there but you. So you're walking around both organizations, you're the only person around. You've got a clipboard. All you can talk about are the artifacts. What do you see? And the bottom two cells, imagine the second week in both organizations, there are people there. So for the bottom two cells, describe the people in both organizations. So all of this is artifacts and they come from values, they come from assumptions. But all you're doing is saying...but what I specifically wanted to differentiate is, what does the place look like different from what are the people like? And so everybody's ready to go. I'm gonna give you five minutes to put something in each cell. And here's the additional information. Andrew, you're ready? 0:13:12.7 BB: When I go to use the Blue Pen. So I would take the Blue Pen out and I would say, "When I use the Blue Pen, the cap goes off, the cap goes on, it goes off and it goes on nice and easy." And at the time I'm explaining this, they don't know anything about the prior story of Toyota, the pickup truck, 100% Snap-fit, Frank Pip. I usually... I save that for later. I said, all you know is the cap goes on, goes off nice and easy. Now the Red Pen, when I go to use the Red Pen, I need pliers to get the cap off. And there were times I had a little pair of pliers and I would use the pliers to pull it off and I need a hammer to get it back on. And I would have a little hammer and I boom, boom, boom. Now however, the Blue Pen... The cap is said to be Snap-fit. Then I would say just like snap your fingers, it comes off nice and easy goes on nice and easy, it doesn't fall off. That's all the information I have. Spend the next five minutes putting something in each cell. 0:14:14.3 BB: I've done that exercise around the world over 500 times of all different audiences, as young as college students, people working in the fishing industry, all over. And what's really cool is what shows up in those four cells is nearly identical. There may be some caveats due to language and whatnot. 0:14:40.8 AS: Identical across the 500, or again, identical... 0:14:44.1 BB: Yes. 0:14:44.5 AS: Across the red and blue. 0:14:46.5 BB: Yes, I... Well... What shows up in those four cells is nearly identical. So I would give people five minutes. And the other thing for those who are listening, my advice when you're doing this, that it took me a while to figure out the additional benefit is, what I would do is go around the room in each cell, the Blue Pen physical and ask if anyone has an example. So for the Blue Pen physical, someone will say: an open environment, bright lights, windows. All right. Then I'd go to the Red Pen Company, physical, "Okay, what do you see over here?" People might say, "Closed doors." Then I'd go to the Red Pen people, what about the people? And the... There might be "rigid,” “looking over their shoulder,” “on a time clock." Blue Pen Company, people might be happy and smiling. So I would go around the room before I give 'em five minutes just to make sure most of us are on the same page 'cause now, and then there'd be some people who are lost. And... But in general, people are pretty good. So then I give 'em five minutes and then depending on the size of the room, I might go around the room, table by table, look over your shoulder, see how you're doing, onto the next one, onto the next one and I get a feeling that they're doing pretty good. So then when I have them stop and there's different things I do at this point. I've had people at this point after five minutes stand up. Okay, there's a couple hundred people in the room at a conference. 0:16:31.0 BB: And I'll say: okay what I'd like you to do is find someone you've not met today and go introduce yourself and spend five minutes comparing trip reports. What's in your trip reports? And the room will very quickly erupt in laughter, whether I do it having you stand up, go find somebody or whether you are sitting at a table of four or five and I say across the table share. And then after they're done with that I'll say, "Okay, what did you find when you share your answers with others at the table?" And again and again, they'll say, "Their answers are just like mine." And I'll say, "Did anything come up in any of those quadrants that you were lost? That you said, Andrew, I... What do you mean by this? I don't know where you're coming from." And that's never happened. Every single time, they may have... They're looking at a factory and somebody may be looking in the kitchen, someone's looking in the lobby area. So they may be looking at different places, but it always fits together well. In the very beginning, what I would do, is I would give them five minutes. I wouldn't have 'em share anything yet. And I would go around the room and I'd say, get in the front of the room and the very first person, and I'd say if it was you say, "Andrew, what's the first thing you have for Blue Pen Physical?" And you'd say, "Clean." In fact, what's really cool is "neat, clean and organized" came up in order again and again. 0:18:13.6 BB: So I would ask you, "Andrew, what do you see?" You would say, "Neat," next person "Clean," next person "Organized." And I go all the way around and just fill up one cell with the very first... One thing you have that you haven't heard yet. Then I would jump over to the Red Pen, fill it out, then I'd go to the Red Pen people. So I would fill up a given cell and in the beginning I would write these on flip charts. And again, I don't know exactly what I was... I had in mind, "It's gonna be interesting," but I didn't appreciate how powerful this has become. And in the beginning I would write these on flip charts and then at the end of the class, I would throw them away. Then as I began to see how common the patterns were, then I would write them onto transparency and save them and I would date them. And at one point of time I've a colleague who's working on a PhD thesis, University of Texas and his PhD research, Andrew, [laughter] came from 200 trip reports that I still had in my files that I hadn't thrown out. And he and his brother took the data 'cause we knew exactly who was in each class. And so he had... He and his brother had some methodology in his... So his research data for his PhD thesis, looking at the leadership styles of these two organizations. And so let me... 0:19:52.3 BB: So in the Blue Pen physical, it's: an open layout neat, clean, organized, what else? Harmonious and as needed, if you were to say harmonious, then I might say, "Andrew, what do you mean by that? What do you mean? What do you mean clean? What do you mean this? What do you mean?" And so there's nothing wrong for our listeners who are trying this out with people. It's just keep asking them: "What do you mean by, what do you mean by." What's most critical is write down exactly what people say. Don't interpret. Don't yeah I would just say don't interpret. So I go all the way around and people would be astounded. 0:20:40.9 BB: I mean, I'd say a couple of things. One is quite often what people see in the contrast is where they work [laughter] versus where they would love to work. [chuckle] Now let me also say, in the very beginning when I did it, I did not explain to them what Snap-fit meant. So I did not say Snap-fit is good. I just said Snap-fit. Now, there would be people who would say, "Well, does it mean because it's Snap-fit, that it's good." And I would just say, "I didn't say one is good, one is bad. All I'm saying is one goes together with the hammers, one doesn't," and then I would eventually explain to them the a 100% Snap-fit Toyota pickup truck, and it would come together nice for them. Well, when I found the uses of this are one, people can, but Dr. Deming talked about prevailing style of management, but talking about it and having conversations about it is, what I found is this exercise... 0:22:00.1 BB: I think helps people in their own words, explain to them. It allows them to create a sense of: what is the prevailing system of management? And it's the Red Pen Company's side in many ways, and then: what is a Deming organization? It's the opposite. Now this is a very simple black and white model. And as George Box's quoted saying "All models are right. Some models are useful." I have found it enormously useful to look at the two organizations and ask people, what are the conversations like in both organizations? And I would say, "Okay, you're walking around a Red Pen Company, you come across two people in the hallway, what are they talking about?" 0:22:48.4 BB: And what you'll get is: it's second-shift people complaining about first-shift people, or it's engineering complaining about manufacturing. And then people would say, there's a lot of "us and them" and I said, okay. What I've also heard people say, is they'll say, "Well, on second shift where they work, we're a Blue Pen Company." "Also on second shift we're a Blue Pen, but those first-shift people, those are Red Pen." And you know, I said, what's a conversation like in a Blue Pen Company? "I've got an idea. Hey, let me hear about it, blah, blah, blah. Tell me more. Tell me more." I'll ask them, what are survival skills in both organizations, survival skill in a Red Pen Company? What'd you find there? And people would say you know, being able to finger-point, not being blamed, protecting yourself, you know, the CYA mentality. Mentality. Don't ever... 0:23:52.8 AS: Surviving the occasional backstabbing. 0:23:55.9 BB: Oh yeah. Don't ever try anything new. You know, what will also come out is, you know, "stodgy, stiff, inflexible." Whereas I said, what about people in the Blue Pen Company? And they'll present this. And I'll ask them, "Which organization would you call a learning organization?" And people will always say, the Blue Pen Company. And I say, why? And they say, "Well, you know, they're always trying to figure out, you know, they're doing PDSA cycles, trying to figure out improvement, improvement." And I'll say, you don't think people in a Red Pen Company have learned how to survive [laughter]? You don't think they've learned how to finger-point, you don't think they've learned how to duck and cover? 0:24:39.9 AS: In a Red Pen. You were saying in a Red Pen Company or in a Blue Pen? 0:24:40.7 BB: Oh yeah I meant Blue Pen, I meant red I mean Red Pen. I said, what I was trying to point out is people will say a Blue Pen is a learning environment. What I'm trying to point out is, don't underestimate the ability of people in a Red Pen Company to also learn, but that learning is about self-protection. And, you know, so the survival skills in that environment are protecting oneself, hoarding information, not allowing others to know how to, you know, do things. So they have secret tools, secret analysis methods, and I say, what are survival skills in a Blue Pen Company? And people will say, "Sharing knowledge is power in a Blue Pen Company." And so I constantly wanna make sure that I'm sharing. And, but it's not that I inundate everyone with everything, but a week later after Andrew, you've asked me for something, a week later I come to you and I say, "Hey, I've been thinking about it. 0:25:34.3 BB: And something else occurred to me that I thought you might value." What I would also add to the conversation is, "What percent of organizations are Red Pen companies?" And I just say, just, you know, in your experience. And then I would say in this unscientific survey, people would say the majority, 80% to 90% of companies, they would say, are Red Pen companies. And I would say, "Well, what keeps them in business? I mean, how could, what is, if 80% of them are Red Pen companies? What keeps all of these companies in what Deming would call the prevailing style of management and business?" People are like, "I don't know." 0:26:17.0 BB: In my response, I shared with my boss who was once President of Rocketdyne. I said, "What keeps us in business?" He said, "What?" I said, "Lousy competition." [laughter] 0:26:27.1 AS: Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. What keeps us in business is the other 80, 90 percent that's in the same boat as us. 0:26:32.7 BB: Exactly. Because they blame their people. Their people become dejected, withdrawn, only do as they're told, hide mistakes, which caused others to make the same mistakes. How can you keep in business focusing on the past to get back to the present when you're in this constant firefighting mode? How do you stay in business other than: others run the same way. And Deming somewhere in The New Economics, I believe in The New Economics. He says, "Be thankful for a good competitor." So that's what I mean by the vision therapy. This Blue Pen Company, Red Pen Company. I've done variants of it. The very first one was blue and red Snap-fit versus not snap-fit. I've, in the last few years, we'll get exactly the same results with a different starting point. 0:27:30.2 BB: And the starting point I use is, I tell the story of the executive sitting next to me that I think I've shared about the last straw. The straw that, what if you're in an organization where you believe the last straw broke the camel's back, what would it be like to work there? And people would say, "Oh, I wouldn't wanna work there is a culture of blame." So I would explain, imagine you recently visited an organization where everyone believes that the last straw did it, and that's called the Last Straw organization. And then there's also this All Straw organization where you understand the systemic aspect of all the straws getting together. And so if I was to start this exercise and explain this belief in the last straw that we have in society, that the basketball game has won on that last shot, or lost in that last shot, versus an all straw, I can use that starting point, Andrew, and have people go through and compare the physical aspects of both organizations and people and get exactly the same results and if it's, 'cause what I found with people, they'll say that... 0:28:31.9 AS: When you say exactly the same, you're saying exactly the same as the Red Pen Blue Pen? 0:28:36.1 BB: Yes. If you were to look at the... If you had a group of 30 people and get a composite score in those four quadrants, you wouldn't necessarily know if it was started with Red Pen, Blue Pen, or All Straw, Last Straw. And I've also done it when I worked for the Deming Institute in that timeframe when I left Rocketdyne, I started explaining it as what if there was one organization where there's a sense of "we," look what we did, how did we do on the exam? Andrew, you're the student, I'm the professor. A collective sense of all for one and one for all versus a "me" organization. Where the question I ask you, Andrew, is "How did you do on the exam?" And inferring that your ability to learn from the exam is separate from my ability to teach. 0:29:28.6 BB: Like I could be saying, "How are you doing in sales" versus "How are we doing in sales?" So if I was to describe it as a "me" organization, everything I do, everything is accomplished by me alone breaking things into parts. My task is done. A lot of this question one stuff that we've been talking about in terms of quality versus a "we" organization, if I explain the "me" and the "we," and there's ways to do that and then get into the trip report, me, we, and the four quadrants, very, very similar. And so I found is in terms of a vision exercise, first of all, depending on who the audience is, I'll get a... I'll figure out do I wanna use Red Pen, Blue Pen, All Straw and Last Straw, me versus we. And there's a couple others that I've used, but I know that once I get them thinking about, I just have to come up with what is the differentiator. 0:30:26.7 BB: And then I get them thinking about the artifacts. And then from the artifacts, once that is done, then I can talk about the conversations in both, the survival skills in both, the what if an... What is an ethics issue in both organizations? And I'll just say a little more about that. And I've worked in large corporations and ethics training. Really, what does it come down to the end of the day is that I didn't misuse company resources, that I didn't charge Project A using the Project B charge number [laughter], right? And I didn't fill out my timecard deliberately wrong. I didn't try to cheat the company on a trip report kind of thing. Well, then what I start thinking about is what's an ethics issue in a Blue Pen Company? 0:31:23.5 BB: And I believe, I think this comes from Dr. Deming, he would say, if, I'm pretty sure it was Deming, Deming would talk about a salesperson for a copying machine. And so Andrew, I'm the salesman and I come to your company and wanna sell, you're in need of a copier. And Deming would say, if I tried to sell you a copier that was bigger than you needed, because there's a bonus for me, Andrew, or a copier that was smaller. If I sold you a copier that I knew was much less than what you needed or much more than what you needed, then Deming would say, that would be unethical. He'd say, "My job is to sell you exactly what you need." And I view that, and I thought, "Well, that's a Blue Pen phenomenon where ethics is about how am I treating others with a sense of sharing or hoarding or whatnot?" So what I found is... 0:32:21.3 AS: Well, also ethics is how am I treating the customer? 0:32:24.4 BB: All of that. Well, how am I treating my coworkers? There's a poem I use with a great quote from Robert Frost and he said "What's the secret to selling a horse?" Have I ever shared this with you? 0:32:35.0 AS: No. 0:32:36.1 BB: The secret to selling a horse. Are you ready? 0:32:36.8 AS: Yep. 0:32:39.5 BB: Just sell it before it dies. [laughter] 0:32:41.7 AS: There you go. 0:32:44.3 BB: And so, and what Frost says in the poem is that we go through life handing off our problems to others. And I've written about this and I said, well, you mean like selling a coworker a horse? And then you come back the next day and you say, "Bill, you know this horse is dead." And I say, "Andrew, it was alive when I gave it to you." What? So I look at it as whether you're a coworker or a customer, what's that all about? And so I throw that out because... 0:33:12.2 BB: I find that that simple model is an incredible mechanism. Earlier today I was in a conversation with a coworker and the word that came up in conversation was you're "driving change." Driving change. And I said, "Driving change is what happens in a Red Pen Company." And the explanation I gave, in the Red Pen Company, I come to you Andrew, and I said, "I want this by tomorrow." And driving change is: I've got a gun to your head. And I say, "Do you understand what I'm looking for?" And you're like, "Right, 'cause I can find somebody else to do this, Andrew. I need this by tomorrow." That's driving change. And so what I'll say to people is, if driving change is a Red Pen Company, then what's the word we use in a Blue Pen Company? 0:34:05.2 AS: Coaxing. 0:34:07.4 BB: And people will say, "I don't know, what's that word?" And I'll say, "Lead, lead!" [laughter] That's what leadership's all about. You want to follow. And so, what I find is this model has allowed me to get a great number of people to explain in their own way, envision the two different organizations. And there's no doubt where they wanna work. They'd much rather be in the Blue Pen, "we" organization, an All-Straw organization. And then we can talk about, how does... The next thing I look at is with an understanding of the System of Profound Knowledge. Can you understand how a Red Pen Company might become a Blue Pen Company? Or my other proposal is that all organizations start off as a Blue Pen Company. So I started off an organization in my garage. I'm the only employee, I have customers, I have suppliers, but I know where everything goes and everything is Snap-fit because it's all about me and I wanna make sure these things integrate really well. And so how does that become a Red Pen Company? 0:35:19.7 BB: Well, here's what happens Andrew is, I hire you right outta school. You're all excited and you come in, you wanna join this organization, and I need help. Andrew, I need help. And I like your attitude. But then what happens is, I go to you and I say, "Andrew, here's what I want you to do. Your job is to answer the phone. Your job is when people call in, here's an instruction sheet, here's the order sheet. I want you to take the order. Here's what we do. We offer different sizes, different colors. You're gonna sell them what they need, not more, not less. You're gonna take their credit card information, you're gonna repeat it back to them, blah, blah, blah." 0:35:54.0 BB: And what I point out is that what I'm slowly doing, once I hire you, is putting people in separate roles. And next thing I know, I've got a baseball team where everybody's covering their own base instead of being incredibly flexible. And so I use that to point out that with the best of intentions, you could go in that direction. And, but what I've seen is I can use the four elements of Profound Knowledge to explain how one becomes the other. I can also use the System of Profound Knowledge to explain why the behaviors are the way they are. Which goes back to: what are the value systems in both organizations? What are the fundamental assumptions? Now relative to what is meant by big problems? Well, Red Pen companies, again, going for those listeners who have heard the earlier podcast. Well, Red Pen companies, all straw, I'm sorry, Last Straw organizations. 0:36:57.7 BB: They're focusing on parts in isolation. They don't work on things that are good. They focus on the things that are bad. So it's always big problems. They're focusing on the past to get back to the present, kept in business by competitors who waste their resources exactly the same way. And it's not to say you never have a problem, but it's to say instead of having a full-time fire department where that's all we're doing, all the doing all the time with a significant portion of our resources, we're using control charts in places where it makes sense. Run charts when a control chart doesn't matter as much. Or we are not even collecting data 'cause intuitively we have a sense of how things are going and where we get blinded, we have problems, but we're also in that environment. We know where can we be spending time to save a lot of time. That's the great opportunity. 0:37:49.7 BB: Things are, so I'm saving time by not having things break. I am managing variation in my resources accordingly, just to allocate my resources for the greater good. A stitch in time saves time. And that's the great opportunity focus that Red Pen companies don't know anything about 'cause they're so focused on the firefighting. And to me, what allows the shift from the Blue Pen to the Red Pen. I mean, what, either if you're unaware of these dynamics, then my Blue Pen Company will gradually become this Red Pen Company nightmare. Because I'm not paying attention to what Deming's talking about. I'm unaware of the System of Profound Knowledge. And I just lapse into that unknowingly. It's not intentional. I just don't know that addition doesn't work, you know, only works when the activities are independent. I think things that are good are equally good. 0:38:47.1 BB: And so to me, I can explain with the System of Profound Knowledge how red becomes blue, how blue becomes red. I can explain the conversations. And the last thing I wanna mention is, is when people come to me with, "Hey, how can I handle an X, Y, Z situation, something we've never talked about in the class or in a seminar?" And people will bring this to my attention and say, "Here's the issue I'm dealing with. Here's that problem I'm dealing with. How can I solve that?" And what I find is, is what I tell people is, here's my advice. 0:39:24.0 BB: And you can do it on your own, or ideally if you can explain this to others and have some others understanding this contrast, then you can - with a group - do what I'm about to explain. And that is first ask yourselves, "How would a Red Pen Company address that issue?" "We're gonna do a root cause investigation. We're gonna find the person who screwed up, we're gonna replace him, blah, blah, blah. We're gonna go that way." And then I would say, "Okay, after you've exhausted that, now ask yourself, what would a Blue Pen Company do by comparison?" 0:40:51.0 BB: And I'm not saying one of those is right, one is wrong, but my belief is that as a starting point, no matter where you are in your Deming journey, I believe, again, and the more people are involved in this, the better - I think the better we can get our minds around how a Red Pen Company handles it. And then say, "Okay, what if we become aware that the ability to learn together and work together is based on the our ability to think together?" Now you go the other way and I have individually done that when someone has asked me. And so I just want to throw that out that I find the model, this vision therapy model to be immensely valuable in brand new situations as a starting point. 0:40:51.1 AS: And in wrapping up, how would you describe kind of the number one takeaway without talking about Blue Pen, Red Pen and the exercise, how would you describe the takeaway that you want our listeners and our viewers to get from this? 0:41:07.6 BB: The number one takeaway is: don't underestimate the value proposition of a shared mental model. And this is what I find is, I can within a half hour have people imagining both organizations, imagining the conversations and that for the, and this is what is so cool that I wasn't anticipating in the beginning, is how quickly people can, without reading The New Economics, just by, 'cause essentially what you're getting them to do without talking about assumptions, they are focusing on assumptions and values. So we're not talking about the artifacts, but we're taking the artifacts and without getting... This is what's so cool is without reading Edgar Schein's work, we're really doing what he's talking about is going from the artifacts down to the values, and then we can talk about the values within organizations. And I find, and another thing I would say is, I've never met anyone that thrives to work in a non-Deming organization. 0:42:15.6 BB: They wanna work in a Blue Pen Company. And so I would, that's what I also find is without mentioning Deming's work, which is also pretty cool about this, I don't have to mention Deming, Taguchi or Ackoff. I could very simply get them and they will self-identify, reveal things. And another essential aspect of this is, this is not me telling you where you wanna work. This is me not telling you what you see. This is you sharing with others. And I learned from a colleague years ago that you can't tell anybody anything. So another immense value proposition here is that people are telling you, and then all you have to do is guide them. And that's what I find is immensely valuable. 0:43:02.6 AS: It's like you're teasing out the intrinsic desires, values and all that. 0:43:08.1 BB: All of that is coming out... 0:43:10.5 AS: Without... 0:43:10.5 BB: They're sharing frustrations. They're articulating frustrations in areas that they've not thought about. And then when they share and realize... In fact, I had a guy in a class once going through this exercise and he came up to me actually, we went through...I did this with a bunch of co-workers at an offsite location where all of them knew each other. And we went through the exercise and then took a break. As we're going to a break, one of them come up to me and he saw all the things on the whiteboard and the four quadrants. 0:43:50.3 BB: And he says to me, "These people, my co-workers," this is one-on-one. He's looking, and he says, "My co-workers got all of that over the cap fits or it doesn't." [laughter] 0:44:09.6 BB: And he wasn't denying, but he's like, "I don't get it." He came up to me two hours later when the class is over and he said, "I can't believe what I couldn't see." [laughter] And that's when I realized this is a really exciting exercise that I've written about and helped others present literally around the world. And I find it works amazingly well to create a framework that people aren't realizing is helping them achieve what they really all want. I believe. I believe. 0:44:46.2 AS: Yap. Well, Bill, on behalf of everyone at the Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for this discussion. For listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. This is your host, Andrew Stotz. And I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. "People are entitled to joy in work."

David talks with Margie Hagene about the work and legacy of Edgar Schein.  Industrial psychologist and author, Schein wrote Humble Inquiry and Humble Leadership.  He died earlier this year at the age of 94. Margie had the honor of working with him and reflects here on his lasting legacy

Are you often quick to give advice? You're not alone, but sometimes our advice may not be as helpful as we think. In this podcast episode, we explore the concepts of the advice trap and humble inquiry, which shift communication from telling to asking and encourage us to stay curious a little longer.   For complete show notes with way more detail than you see on this podcatcher summary, click here. If you're not into that kind of detail, have an aversion to websites, don't really care about show notes, or are contrarian in nature, by all means, do not click here.    Guest Bio: The late Edgar Schein, PhD. was a renowned figure in the field of organizational psychology, with significant contributions to the understanding of organizational culture and leadership. As a Professor Emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management, his academic work spanned several decades, educating countless leaders and thinkers. Holding a Ph.D. in Social Psychology from Harvard University, Dr. Schein was widely recognized for his groundbreaking theories on corporate culture and process consultation. His seminal works, including “Humble Inquiry”, "Organizational Culture and Leadership" and "The Corporate Culture Survival Guide", continue to be pillars of study in the field. Dr. Schein's dedication and influence earned him prestigious accolades, including the Lifetime Achievement Award in Workplace Learning and Performance from the American Society for Training and Development. His insights continue to shape modern approaches to organizational development and leadership. Kickassery: Want to re-spark the joy in your practice, get home on time, or just unstick what's feeling stuck? Start here to learn more about 1 on 1 coaching.    Mentioned in this episode:  Our recent newsletter on communicating with patients  Newsletter Signup Here Freebies with documentation phrases and tips on calling consults Here The Advice Trap Link Humble Inquiry Link   Registration is open for the FlameProof Course This is a small cohort six-month course specifically for emergency and acute care clinicians that will build and strengthen tools for career longevity, strategies for well-being, life balance, and so much more. Learn more here.    In this pod, we discuss… We love to solve problems, and that can be a problem The Advice Trap Why even good advice can be bad The paradoxical pitfall of how we see our value The demotivator Where this comes up in coaching You are in the coffee shop with your best friend Hearing yourself think Humble inquiry It's not just to fill the awkward silence Asking questions is not straightforward  Critical skills for implementing humble inquiry The take-home challenge Ed Schein quotes from this episode  

Are you often quick to give advice? You're not alone, but sometimes our advice may not be as helpful as we think. In this podcast episode, we explore the concepts of the advice trap and humble inquiry, which shift communication from telling to asking and encourage us to stay curious a little longer.   For complete show notes with way more detail than you see on this podcatcher summary, click here. If you're not into that kind of detail, have an aversion to websites, don't really care about show notes, or are contrarian in nature, by all means, do not click here.    Guest Bio: The late Edgar Schein, PhD. was a renowned figure in the field of organizational psychology, with significant contributions to the understanding of organizational culture and leadership. As a Professor Emeritus at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management, his academic work spanned several decades, educating countless leaders and thinkers. Holding a Ph.D. in Social Psychology from Harvard University, Dr. Schein was widely recognized for his groundbreaking theories on corporate culture and process consultation. His seminal works, including “Humble Inquiry”, "Organizational Culture and Leadership" and "The Corporate Culture Survival Guide", continue to be pillars of study in the field. Dr. Schein's dedication and influence earned him prestigious accolades, including the Lifetime Achievement Award in Workplace Learning and Performance from the American Society for Training and Development. His insights continue to shape modern approaches to organizational development and leadership. Kickassery: Want to re-spark the joy in your practice, get home on time, or just unstick what's feeling stuck? Start here to learn more about 1 on 1 coaching.    Mentioned in this episode:  Our recent newsletter on communicating with patients  Newsletter Signup Here Freebies with documentation phrases and tips on calling consults Here The Advice Trap Link Humble Inquiry Link   Registration is open for the FlameProof Course This is a small cohort six-month course specifically for emergency and acute care clinicians that will build and strengthen tools for career longevity, strategies for well-being, life balance, and so much more. Learn more here.    In this pod, we discuss… We love to solve problems, and that can be a problem The Advice Trap Why even good advice can be bad The paradoxical pitfall of how we see our value The demotivator Where this comes up in coaching You are in the coffee shop with your best friend Hearing yourself think Humble inquiry It's not just to fill the awkward silence Asking questions is not straightforward  Critical skills for implementing humble inquiry The take-home challenge Ed Schein quotes from this episode  

Edgar Schein, one of the most brilliant consultants, researchers, authors, and academics, sadly passed away in January 2023. I was so fortunate to be the recipient of his coaching in the year leading up to that, and I had the bright idea of honouring Ed for the 100th episode of the Greatness podcast. I'm deeply grateful to my good friend and former colleague Kelcey Henderson, President of Continuum Advisory Group, for facilitating what was a deeply meaningful and emotional conversation about Ed and the lessons I learned from him. Ed will live on in my heart as his wise words of advice will continue to guide me. As I say in the podcast, we can only hope to have that kind of impact on another human being during our journey on this planet.

"Life is messy"! Brilliant author and CEO coach Sabina Nawaz joined the Greatness podcast to share her insights on leadership after my LinkedIn post mentioning her HBR article on failure months ago received a record response. "If you're not failing enough, you're not experimenting enough, you're too much in your comfort zone".  As leaders, our failures help others have the courage to take risks and fail small instead of failing big. Sabina offers up concrete suggestions on how to create a learning organization, how to lead without having all the answers but instead asking the great questions. Blocking "white space" each week is one of her great tips, being intentional with your time versus "hiding behind busy". ***NOTE: I want to acknowledge that this podcast was recorded back in February 2023 and I had not yet heard of my coach Edgar Schein's passing a few days earlier when I mentioned Ed during the recording. After our recording, Sabina compassionately shared the news of his passing with me, and sat in empathy with my sorrow. I will always be grateful for her compassion.

We are speaking with Rosa Antonia Carrillo and Gary Wong discussing Rosa's new book discussing Health and Safety Leadership Strategy: How Authentically Inclusive Leaders Inspire Employees to Achieve Extraordinary ResultsThe book builds on ideas to further understand why relationships are the venue through which leaders bring about change in organizations. On our show we'll discuss:- Why employers must pay attention to their organization's mental, physical and psychological well-being data to keep their top talent and essential workers- Why challenges presented by the data will not be resolved by technology nor traditional change management practices- How “authentically inclusive” leadership can embed Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, Belonging (DEIB) into everyday work of the organizationView book: https://amzn.to/3GLWnsJJoin us for our next live session by registering here: https://lnkd.in/gJ_jSXDOur Guest:Rosa Antonia Carrillo, MSOD is an author and leadership and culture expert with an emphasis in environment. Her new book, The Relationship Factor in Safety Leadership, published by Routledge has been called required reading to understand the foundations of "safety culture" by Edgar Schein. Her ground breaking articles on relationship centered leadership, safety culture, mindful conversations, trust and open communication have gained the attention of of leaders world-wide. In recognition of her contributions, the Safety Institute of Australia invited her as the Wigglesworth Memorial Lecturer in 2015.She is president of Carrillo & Associates, Inc. a provider for employee engagement, leadership development, and coaching services for leaders of companies that want to achieve high performance in EHS while delivering business results. The C&A team delivers engaging leadership development workshops to executives, managers, supervisors and employees to help them transform into leaders who build collaborative, trusting, and motivating work environments. At the same time, given the unique challenges of operating a high- hazard facility, the training focuses on managing and enhancing employee performance as well as effective decision-making.Ms. Carrillo holds a Masters of Science in Organizational Development and is former adjunct faculty for the Presidential Key Executive MBA program at Pepperdine University.

Henry Cloud: Trust Henry Cloud is an acclaimed leadership expert, clinical psychologist and a New York Times bestselling author. His 45 books, including the iconic Boundaries, have sold nearly 20 million copies worldwide. He has an extensive executive coaching background and experience as a leadership consultant, devoting the majority of his time working with CEOs, leadership teams, and executives to improve performance, leadership skills, and culture. Henry's work has been featured and reviewed by The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, Publisher's Weekly, Los Angeles Times, and many other publications. Success Magazine named him in the top 25 most influential leaders in personal growth and development, alongside Oprah, Brené Brown, Seth Godin and others. He is a frequent contributor to CNN, Fox News Channel, and other national media outlets. Henry is the author of Trust: Knowing When to Give It, When to Withhold It, How to Earn It, and How to Fix It When It Gets Broken*. When someone betrays your trust, what do you do next? In this conversation, Henry and I explore the five factors of trust and the importance of each one of them in our relationships. Then, we look at the starting point for rebuilding trust after a betrayal, beginning with you and your own support network. Key Points Five factors are key for trust: understanding, motive, ability, character, and track record. Repairing trust is not clean or orderly. The first step is about you, not the person who betrayed you. Leaders who have a support network already in place are better able to take a pause and work through emotion and anger. An authentic apology from someone should articulate the event itself, demonstrate their empathy for how the event felt to you, and appreciate the consequences of their actions. Forgiving someone does not mean you trust them. Resources Mentioned Trust: Knowing When to Give It, When to Withhold It, How to Earn It, and How to Fix It When It Gets Broken* by Henry Cloud Interview Notes Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required). Related Episodes The Art of Constructing Apologies, with Sandra Sucher (episode 535) The Path Towards Trusting Relationships, with Edgar Schein and Peter Schein (episode 539) How to Approach a Reorg, with Claire Hughes Johnson (episode 621) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic. To accelerate your learning, uncover more inside Coaching for Leaders Plus.

In this episode, Mary Conquest speaks with Rosa Carrillo, a safety leadership and culture expert who's also a highly acclaimed author. Her book, ‘The Relationship Factor in Safety Leadership', is hailed by Edgar Schein as required reading to understand the foundations of "safety culture".After explaining why she wrote this book, Rosa shares her 8 principles of Relationship-Centered Safety Leadership. Psychological safety underpins everything, and we learn how to achieve ‘true communication' and why inclusion must precede workplace accountability.Rosa focuses on the importance and interdependence of innovation, resilience, inclusion, and accountability and discusses how leaders' expectations impact workers' contributions.Trust is a constant theme throughout this compassionate discussion, and Rosa explains why this quality will help Safety professionals more than policies.Rosa also introduces the concept of drift and its implications for safety management before highlighting the importance of continuously checking your beliefs, assumptions and biases.One of the key messages is everything starts with relationships. Rosa elegantly shows us that relationships influence emotions, feelings, and beliefs - which determine safety decisions and ultimately, culture.To find out more about Rosa's work, visit:https://carrilloconsultants.com/Rosa's recommended reading:Pre-accident investigations by Todd Conklinhttps://www.amazon.com/Pre-Accident-Investigations-Todd-Conklin/dp/1409447820The Field Guide to Understanding 'Human Error' by Sidney Dekker:https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Understanding-Human-Error/dp/1472439058Next Generation Safety Leadership by Clive Lloyd:https://www.amazon.com/Generation-Safety-Leadership-Clive-Lloyd/dp/0367509563/Rosa Carrillo on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosaantoniacarrillo/Safety Labs is created by Slice, the only safety knife on the market with a finger-friendly® blade. Find us at www.sliceproducts.comIf you have any questions, please email us at safetylabs@sliceproducts.com

Get Caught Trying to Make the World Better! Best Safety Podcast, Safety Program, Safety Storytelling, Investigations, Human Performance, Safety Differently, Operational Excellence, Resilience Engineering, Safety and Resilience Incentives... Give this a listen. Thanks for listening and tell your friends. See you on Audible...all my books are up on there. One of them is read by a British dude - it is like a Harry Potter book! Have a great day as well.

We're kicking  the new year off with a five part series on "What's Driving Demand for Psychological Safety." Today's episode will kick off the series and give us an overview of where we've been, where we are, and introduce the key drivers. In the following episodes of this series, Tim and Junior discuss exclusion and social injustice, and innovation, engagement and retention, mental health and wellness. Each of these paths lead back to the need and the demand for higher levels of psychological safety. (0:02:16) The way we work has changed. The 2020s are the decade of culture and we are able to hold conversations about psychological safety that can be productive and actionable. (03:35) The concept of psychological safety has been around since 1965 when Warren Bennis and Edgar Schein at MIT coined the term in their academic research.  (18:41) A global survey conducted by SHRM shows that workplace culture is the difference between success and failure in a post pandemic world. A good workplace culture was more important than salary for job satisfaction. Wellbeing is up 147% in mentions in the share of job posts and the number one reason for attrition was toxic corporate culture. (36:10) Introducing the drivers of psychological safety such as employee engagement, physical safety, growth and development, mental health and wellness, innovation and competitiveness.  (40:24) Younger generations like GenZ are more sensitive to workplace culture than the generations before them. You cannot treat workplace culture the same as we have treated in the past and expect to succeed as a business in 2023. Important LinksLinkedIn Global Talent Trends 2022 Report Key Findings LinkedIn Global Talent Trends 2022 ReportMIT Sloan Management Review "Toxic Culture is Driving the Great Resignation"Glassdoor "Culture over Cash? Multi-Country Survey Finds More Than Half of Employees Prioritize Workplace Culture Over Salary"SHRM "Healthy Workplace Culture: The Cornerstone of All Business Objectives"What is Psychological Safety?The 4 Stages of Psychological Safety by Timothy R. Clark 

My guest today is David Achata.David is an author, coach, trainer, facilitator, and speaker. He brings over twenty years of leadership experience to organizations, team development, and training. He holds a master's degree in Spiritual Development and is an ICF Certified Executive Coach at the PCC level.Over the years, David has worked in a wide array of capacities from high school teacher, to pastor, to organizational health consultant. His coaching firm, Achata Coaching Inc. was founded in 2011 to make space for leaders to find vision.He lives in the mountains of east Tennessee with his wife and two children. David and I first crossed paths when we were both working as pastors.  Then later we reconnected as coaching colleagues and over the years have enjoyed connected rather randomly, hearing about each others journeys, and cheering each other on.I'm delighted to share this conversation with you today as David shared pieces of his story, the reflections of how he's made sense out of the chaos of life, and how he's continuing to choose growth and expansion both in his personal and professional life.David, thank you so much for sharing, for your candid reflections, for inviting us into your journey and processing.  Your deep questioning and curiosity is inspirational!Throughout the conversation David references a number of books and there are links to these in the show notes.  David also has two upcoming books, and we link to his author page on Amazon so you can find all his publications there!Links:WebsiteAuthor PageBooks referenced:Edgar Schein, Humble InquiryParker Palmer, A Hidden WholenessRunde & Flanagan's Conflict Competent seriesNT Wright, After You Believe  Curt Thompson, Anatomy of the SoulDavid's two upcoming books:Embrace What You Don't Know: A Stupid Guide to Smart Leadership Executive Retreat: Leaders, Please Go AwayMake Life Less Difficult

Most leaders know that a strong team culture leads to positive results across the board, including higher satisfaction and retention among team members, increased innovation, and higher performance. Developing a great culture is crucial for a team or organization to perform at its best, but defining and embedding culture is often more elusive and difficult to put into practice. To help with this process, Drs Cory Shaffer and Katie Nichols break down Edgar Schein's six cultural embedding mechanisms.

https://upmyinfluence.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Wiefling-Wide.png () In this episode of the Thoughtful Entrepreneur, your host Josh Elledge speaks with the President and Founder of https://wiefling.com/ (Wiefling Consulting), Kimberly Wiefling. Kimberly works to make the world better by helping Japanese companies globalize. Business being done across borders helps strengthen international business relationships. Silicon Valley Alliances made its first connections through doing workshops with individuals from Japan in Silicon Valley. This connection allowed Kimberly to be introduced to a multitude of Japanese agencies. A typical engagement involves workshops for mid-level businesses to help with leadership, team effectiveness, and organizational culture. Kimberly explains that qualities of good leadership are honesty, inspiration, and forward-looking which are all behavioral qualities. There is a disconnect when the values are placed on the wall rather than actually done. Kimberly explains that transparency needs to be worked on through conversation among individuals. Kimberly's advice for companies struggling with leadership is to understand employees need purpose over profit or to feel a sense of belonging. Key Points from the Episode: The impact Kimberly has in the world How Silicon Valley Alliances makes connections Engagement with clients Global Leadership Transparency Kimberly's advice for companies struggling with leadership About Kimberly Wiefling: Kimberly is known for her authentically scrappy style. At Hewlett Packard, she felt like a hired assassin where she prioritized projects over people. After 10 years of working in technology, she realized that technology fails far less frequently than people do. She uses her experience as a scientist and technologist to navigate and transform the messy world of organizational culture. Her superpower is helping companies achieve what seems impossible by converting common sense into common practice and bringing people with diverse backgrounds together to achieve what couldn't be done alone. Kimberly has worked with over a hundred major corporations including Yamaha Motors, Suntory, Mitsubishi, NASA, and Indeed. She has produced 6 books in her "Scrappy" brand series, including the international bestseller 'Scrappy Project Management, which continues to sell well 14 years after the original publication, was translated into Japanese, and is used as a textbook in project management courses. Kimberly is a highly sought-after speaker, and has presented in more than a dozen countries and worked with people from over 50 countries ( Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Japan, Singapore, Australia, Germany, USA, China, Thailand, Zambia, UK, France, Armenia, etc.) Her personal mentor is the Lifetime Achievement Award-winning thought leader of organizational development, Dr. Edgar Schein. Her mission is to wipe out the pandemic of soul-sucking, toxic organizations so that people can be fully engaged, and contribute the highest and best versions of themselves to their work. Tweetable Moments: 02:04 - "You don't read a book about exercise. You go to the gym and you work out. That's how you build strong muscles." 06:42 - "The leadership challenge gives us five areas of leadership that are crucial if you want to be perceived as a great leader. And they're all behavioral. You model the way, do what you say people should do, and you inspire shared vision." Apply to be a Guest on The Thoughtful Entrepreneur: https://go.upmyinfluence.com/podcast-guest (https://go.upmyinfluence.com/podcast-guest) Links Mentioned in this Episode: Want to learn more? Check out the  Wiefling Consulting website at https://wiefling.com/ (https://wiefling.com/) Check out the Silicon Valley Alliances website at https://siliconvalleyalliances.com/ (https://siliconvalleyalliances.com/) Check out Wiefling Consulting on LinkedIn at...

My guests for this episode are Kristin and Ted Skantze, joining me from shores of Lake Michigan.  Ted is the former director of the non-profit organization Re-Member and former director of their board, and Kristin is a Nurse Practitioner who has worked for the past 20 years with Pine Ridge Indian Health Service on the Pine Ridge Reservation, in South Dakota.  They share their personal story of their involvement on the reservation, and discuss the impact around cultural understanding, and the importance of listening in helping to heal broken relationships and build connections and bring to attention to the truly resilient spirit of the indigenous people.  The term, Re-Member, refers to the idea of putting back together that which is broken, to re-member.  What has been broken is a trust, and the treatment and relationship with the Oglala Lakota people.  Through the work of Re-Member, volunteers have the opportunity to learn, and listen, and offer hope to those who have been marginalized, through relationship building and cultural understanding.  Rather than attempting to fix or change what those from outside the culture perceive needs to be changed, the focus is on understanding and appreciating the diversity of cultures.  I am reminded of the work of Edgar Schein, who developed the concept of Process Consultancy, which is built upon the foundation that assumes that “one can only help a human system to help itself”.  To learn more about volunteer opportunities with Re-Member, check out this link:  https://www.re-member.org/volunteering 

In dieser Folge stellen wir das Konzept des Karriereankers vor, das durch Edgar Schein geprägt wurde. In seiner Langzeitstudie hat er die tatsächliche berufliche Entwicklung von Absolventen der Sloan School of Management des Massachusetts Institute of Technology erforscht und dabei acht Karrieremöglichkeiten (Karriereanker) gefunden. Diese persönlichen „Karriereanker“ können dabei helfen, berufliche Entscheidungen besser zu treffen und geben Orientierung hinsichtlich individueller Kompetenzen, Motive und Wertvorstellungen. Wenn dir unser Podcast gefallen hat, ist das größte Kompliment, das du uns machen kannst, dass du uns deinen Freunden weiterempfiehlst. Selbstverständlich freuen wir uns auch über Feedback, Anregungen, Themenvorschläge oder deine Geschichte. Schreib uns dazu eine E-Mail an chancenderzuversicht@gmail.com

Ari Weinzweig: A Lapsed Anarchist's Approach to The Power of Beliefs in Business In 1982, Ari, along with his partner Paul Saginaw, founded Zingerman's Delicatessen with a $20,000 bank loan, a Russian History degree from the University of Michigan, 4 years of experience washing dishes, cooking, and managing in restaurant kitchens and chutzpah from his hometown of Chicago. Today, Zingerman's Delicatessen is a nationally renowned food icon and the Zingerman's Community of Businesses has grown to 10 businesses with over 750 employees and over $55 million in annual revenue. Besides being the Co-Founding Partner and being actively engaged in some aspect of the day-to-day operations and governance of nearly every business in the Zingerman's Community, Ari is also a prolific writer. His most recent publications are the first 4 of his 6 book series Zingerman's Guide to Good Leading, including A Lapsed Anarchist's Approach to The Power of Beliefs in Business. In this conversation, Ari and I explore how the power of our beliefs show up in virtually every one of our daily actions. We examine how to begin looking at what isn't working and how to start examining our beliefs. When those beliefs aren't working, Ari shares several, critical steps we can take to begin to change our thinking. Key Points Our beliefs, many of which we may not be consciously aware of, are often calling the shots in our daily actions and behaviors. Start examining a belief by picking a current problem to address. Listen carefully to your internal voices to identify the language showing up. Notice places especially where you frame things as facts, certitudes, thoughts, theories, norms, shoulds, and should nots. Examine how you came to the beliefs that you uncover. Then, confront your cannons. Change now, find facts later. Most people do that the opposite way. Resources Mentioned A Lapsed Anarchist's Approach to the Power of Beliefs in Business by Ari Weinzweig Humility: A Humble, Anarchistic Inquiry by Ari Weinzweig Schein On, You Crazy Diamond by Ari Weinzweig Interview Notes Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required). Related Episodes The Path of Humble Leadership, with Edgar Schein and Peter Schein (episode 363) How to Help People Engage in Growth, with Whitney Johnson (episode 576) Help People Show Up as Themselves, with Frederic Laloux (episode 580) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic.

Culture is a huge factor in the success or failure of a team. There are cultures so focused on performance and talent that they leave everyone drained. And then there are cultures where individual members, no matter how talented, put the needs of the team over their needs and, as a result, everyone wins. But there's a lot we misunderstand about culture. When you hear many people describe their culture, they point to easily observable elements like symbols, slogans, dress code, foosball tables, or free food. But going all the way back to Edgar Schein's initial research on culture, we find that those observable elements don't matter as much as we think. It's what's below the surface that matters. Culture on a team isn't anything you can see or hear; it's what those observable things point to that matters. The foundational elements of culture are values and beliefs, and observable elements like rituals, rallying cries, and symbols flow from there. In this episode, we'll outline how to build a team culture starting below the surface with what matters and build upon that foundation. 0:00 Introduction 2:16 Values 3:45 Beliefs 5:05 Rituals 6:29 Rallying Cries 7:46 Symbols 9:25 Conclusion It starts with values and beliefs. And leaders of teams with a strong and positive culture put in the work to clarify values and beliefs. The know that putting values first makes culture building happen faster and makes it more likely they'll build a culture that helps everyone do their best work ever. //DO YOUR BEST WORK EVER If you liked this video and you want to help your team do their best work ever, check out the free resources we've compiled at https://davidburkus.com/resources //LIKE THE SHIRT? Get yours at https://shopdavidburkus.com //ABOUT DAVID One of the world's leading business thinkers, David Burkus' forward-thinking ideas and bestselling books are helping leaders and teams do their best work ever. He is the best-selling author of four books about business and leadership. His books have won multiple awards and have been translated into dozens of languages. His insights on leadership and teamwork have been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, USAToday, Fast Company, the Financial Times, Bloomberg BusinessWeek, CNN, the BBC, NPR, and CBS This Morning. Since 2017, Burkus has been ranked as one of the world's top business thought leaders by Thinkers50. As a sought-after international speaker, his TED Talk has been viewed over 2 million times. He's worked with leaders from organizations across all industries including Google, Stryker, Fidelity, Viacom, and even the US Naval Academy. A former business school professor, Burkus holds a master's degree in organizational psychology from the University of Oklahoma, and a doctorate in strategic leadership from Regent University. //SPEAKING Like what you heard? Find more on David's speaking page (and find out about bringing him to your company or event) at https://davidburkus.com/keynote-speaker/ //CONNECT + LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidburkus/ + Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/davidburkus + Facebook: http://www.FB.com/DrDavidBurkus + Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/DavidBurkus //MUSIC "Appreciate That" by David Cutter https://www.davidcuttermusic.com

Joining me this week is Paul Millerd.Paul is the author of a new book called the Pathless Path, as well as a freelance consultant and a Content Advisor to Curious Lion. He has been an indispensable help on a few client projects, assisting in assessing client's existing Learning Cultures. This is the topic of today's episode.Paul spent more than a decade at companies like GE, McKinsey, and BCG as an organizational consultant, assessing, shaping, and cultivating strong organizational cultures.Much of our conversation in this episode draws upon the work of Edgar Schein, one of the most impressive thinkers on organizational culture from the late 80s and early 90s.You'll leave this episode knowing what role you can play in establishing and cultivating the culture you want to see at your company.So please sit back and enjoy my episode with Paul Millerd.

Frederic Laloux: Reinventing Organizations Frederic is the author of Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness*. The book is a global word-of-mouth bestseller with over 850,000 copies sold in 20 languages. Frederic's work has inspired the founders of Extinction Rebellion, the Sunrise Movement, and Project Drawdown, as well as countless corporate leaders and faith movements. In a past life, he was an associate principal with McKinsey & Company. He's also the creator of the Insights for the Journey video series. In this conversation, Frederic and I explore a place where almost every leader can have a meaningful impact: helping people show up as their whole selves. We discuss how critical it is for leaders to lead the way in doing this — and how storytelling can be an important entry point. We look at some of practical actions leaders can take to enter into a place of wholeness, including elevating beyond content, using everyday language, and integrating with the work at hand. Key Points As a leader, wholeness begins with you. Exploring wholeness yourself sets the stage for everyone else to be able to engage more fully. Rather than talking lots about wholeness, it's often helpful just to begin modeling it. When you do, everyday language us useful to help others engage. Your personal history, the history of the organization, and the organization's purpose are often helpful stories to share that open up a space for wholeness. You can turn any conversation into a moment of wholeness. One invitation for leaders is to stop talking about content and elevate the dialogue to “what's happening” overall. Resist any temptation to disconnect wholeness from the work at hand. Bringing these together helps people to show up at work more authentically. Resources Mentioned Reinventing Organizations: A Guide to Creating Organizations Inspired by the Next Stage of Human Consciousness* by Frederic Laloux Reinventing Organizations: An Illustrated Invitation to Join the Conversation on Next-Stage Organizations* by Frederic Laloux Insights for the Journey video series by Frederic Laloux Interview Notes Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required). Related Episodes The Way to Stay Grounded, with Parker Palmer (episode 378) How to Be More Inclusive, with Stefanie Johnson (episode 508) The Path Towards Trusting Relationships, with Edgar Schein and Peter Schein (episode 539) End Imposter Syndrome in Your Organization, with Jodi-Ann Burey (episode 556) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic.

Bonni Stachowiak: Teaching in Higher Ed Bonni is the host of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Dean of Teaching and Learning and Professor of Business and Management at Vanguard University, and my life partner. Prior to her academic career, she was a human resources consultant and executive officer for a publicly traded company. Bonni is the author of The Productive Online and Offline Professor: A Practical Guide*. Listener Questions Allison asked for resources on how to lead others who are more knowledgeable than you in the field of work. Everett wondered how he can navigate a situation where accents make it difficult to understand interview candidates. Stephen asked about motivating people independent of incentives. Resources Mentioned The Empowered Manager: Positive Political Skills at Work* by Peter Block Drive* by Daniel Pink Effective Delegation of Authority: A (Really) Short Book for New Managers About How to Delegate Work Using a Simple Delegation Process* by Hassan Osman The Coaching Habit* by Michael Bungay Stanier Humble Leadership* by Edgar Schein and Peter Schein HBO Max Presents Brené Brown: Atlas of the Heart Leading with Dignity: How to Create a Culture That Brings Out the Best in People* by Donna Hicks On the folly of rewarding A while hoping for B by Steven Kerr Related Episodes How to Improve Your Coaching Skills, with Tom Henschel (episode 190) How to Motivate People, with Dan Ariely (episode 282) The Path of Humble Leadership, with Edgar Schein and Peter Schein (episode 363) Effective Delegation of Authority, with Hassan Osman (episode 413) Start Finding Overlooked Talent, with Johnny Taylor, Jr. (episode 544) Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic.

Welcome back to the Mission First People Always Podcast! Any organization that wants to upgrade its workplace environment is familiar with the terms diversity, equity, and inclusion. That's because they are essential when it comes to bringing out the best in people and elevating performance.  Let's begin with some simple definitions, so we're all on the same page: Diversity means that differences are present. In the workplace, the differences we refer to are largely related to aspects of our humanity that are legally protected against discrimination like race, gender, ethnicity, disability, and sexual orientation. Other aspects of diversity include religion, religious commitment, political perspective, nationality, and even personality type. In fact, anything that makes us unique can be considered an element of diversity. Many scholarly studies have proven that more diverse teams tend to perform at a higher level than those teams that lack a diverse membership. Equity involves the fair distribution of resources, along with fairness and justice in all policies and decisions. Many present inequities are historically rooted and must be recognized to create more equitable organizations today.  Inclusion is when everyone feels welcome. One famous metaphor to explain inclusion goes something like this. "Diversity is being invited to the party. Inclusion is being asked to dance.” It's giving everyone a voice, inviting them to fully participate in organizational life, and helping them feel comfortable doing so.  Of the three, inclusion may be the most difficult to achieve because it focuses on people and how they feel. It's more subtle and nuanced and, therefore, more challenging to develop fully. Because teams are always shifting, and people are coming and going, the work of creating an inclusive environment is ongoing. Our guest today has the insight you need to make this process smooth for everyone.  Join our conversation as I talk with guest Ray Linder! Ray helps government agencies, Fortune 100 companies, and major universities develop leaders, strengthen teamwork, and navigate change. Hit play to learn about what Ray likes to call “Inclusioning” and how you can take your team to the next level.   This episode is rich in useful content, so grab a notebook, listen carefully, and take away several ideas that will help you build a more inclusive team. For more resources or to connect with us, check out the links below!  In this episode, you'll learn: Why "inclusioning" is the right word to use in describing the ongoing process of helping people to feel included and welcome The business case for being inclusive Why creating an inclusive team is difficult How the "fruit" of inclusion is a better sign that you have an inclusive team or organization than simply talking about how inclusive you are The two critical ingredients needed for inclusion: empathic capacity and curiosity.  Episode Resources:  The Empathy Effect, Helen Riess, MD https://www.amazon.com/Empathy-Effect-Neuroscience-Based-Transforming-Differences/dp/1683640284/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1646764861&sr=1-1 Humble Inquiry, Edgar Schein https://www.amazon.com/Humble-Inquiry-Second-Instead-Leadership/dp/1523092629/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1646764825&sr=1-1 Connect with Ray: LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/ray-linder-3b28241 Twitter: @personalityguru Website: raylinder.net More About Ray:  Ray Linder helps government agencies, Fortune 100 companies, and major universities develop leaders, strengthen teamwork, and navigate change. He has taught thousands “how to be themselves with more skill” at places like Harvard Business School, Chicago Mercantile Exchange, Office of Personnel Management, the Department of Health and Human Services, and Johns Hopkins University.  Ray is the author of three books, one of which is about personal finance and personality type, where he was able to combine his interest in psychology and psychometric assessments with his formal education in finance and economics. As a result, he was featured on CNBC, and in USA Today, the Boston Herald, the Washington Post, and Men's Health Magazine.  He is associated with several firms that focus on talent development and has served as an adjunct faculty member at the Federal Executive.  Connect with Dr. Mike:  Website: https://www.drmikepatterson.com/ Book: https://www.missionfirstpeoplealwaysbook.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmichaellpatterson/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therealdrmikepatterson/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/drmikepatterson Buy The Book!: Mission First People Always Minute By Minute: 0:25 The heart behind this podcast 3:09 Get to know Ray Linder 6:37 Inclusion is a verb: Inclusioning 8:02 The ROI on inclusion 10:13 How being inclusive can mitigate risk 13:26 The markers of Psychological safety  16:47 How being inclusive impacts team culture 22:10 A healthy perspective on the word “biased” 24:43 The two tools for inclusion 28:48 What empathy really looks like 39:36 One thing every leader can take action on today

On today's episode of UnRuly Leadership, I share a recording of my recent Facebook Live video where I walked through the eight career anchors, which are tools that you can use to boost your career growth. When you're battling imposter syndrome or a toxic work environment, it can be hard to take a step back and think about what you really want from your career. Identifying your top career anchor is an essential step towards prioritising yourself and your wellbeing. It's also one of the foundational leadership skills because if you're not learning how to direct your career, how can you lead others? Career anchors were a theory developed by Edgar Schein, a former MIT professor. I explain each of his eight anchors, helping you to differentiate between the anchors of independence and management, and a challenge or a spirit of entrepreneurship. Listen to the end to hear my framework to identify your top career anchors and why you should still pick your top anchor, even if you have several anchors that are closely tied. If you enjoyed this episode of UnRuly Leadership, please subscribe to the podcast and share it with a friend or on your LinkedIn feed to help other like-minded people to discover the show. Timestamps [0:11] Today's Topic: How to identify which anchors are the most important for your career growth [3:10] I introduce my background and my expertise in imposter syndrome [4:58] Where does the career anchors framework come from? [6:20] Why you should find your dominant career anchor [7:15] The first career anchor: General management [8:34] The second career anchor: Specialist skill set [9:27] The third career anchor: Entrepreneurship (and Intrepreneurship) [10:46] The fourth career anchor: Independence [11:44] The fifth career anchor: Stability [13:10] The sixth career anchor: Service to society [14:53] The seventh career anchor: Challenge [15:35] The eighth career anchor: Lifestyle [16:13] My step-by-step guide to identifying your top career anchor [17:24] The first ever winner of the engagement challenge! [18:22] Answering listener questions: Can I have multiple anchors? [18:54] Why you should still identify your top anchor [21:02] Thanks so much for tuning in! To join our vision board workshop on 26th March themintambition.com/vision/ Free community for sensitive professionals to rise together -> themintambition.com/community Ready to advance your career without changing your personality or drowning in an overflowing to-do list? Get my Monday morning emails, and I'll help you overcome impostor thoughts, be seen as a leader and advance your career. All while showing up with an authentic, positive presence. Instant access at -> themintambition.com Want to cleanse out all those tricky impostor thoughts? Grab my Impostor Cleanse Kit for a set of four goodies that'll increase your confidence at work -> themintambition.com/impostor-cleanse-kit Need a step-by-step blueprint on how to confidently advance your career (even if you're not 100% sure you're ready)? Get my 3-month career advancement Blueprint -> themintambition.com/blueprint Looking for your next leadership book to read? Get my Ultimate Guide to Leadership Books for a curated and organized list of over 200 of the best leadership books out there -> themintambition.com/ultimate-guide Want to go deeper and work together? Step 1: Get on the wait list for the ~FREE~ Self-Advocacy Made Easy Summit: Learn from 12 industry experts on how to feel confident speaking up for yourself, your ideas and your career -> themintambition.com/summit Step 2: Figure out the strategic next step for your career (even if you feel totally stuck in indecision) so you can STOP feeling stagnant at work and START advancing your career -> themintambition.com/ignite Step 3: Grow key leadership skills to confidently advance to your next career level. Not only will you feel confident advocating for yourself, you'll be seen as a leader by your peers and senior management. Get on the wait list for the next cohort of the Powerful Presence Society Bootcamp experience -> themintambition.com/pps Connect with me on Linked in -> www.linkedin.com/in/lizstjean Contact me > hello@themintambition.com

Season 4 Episode 19 Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 4 Episode 19 of People Soup. Yes I'm back - after an unexpected break due to catching Covid, which knocked me out for a few weeks. This episode a new type of episode - one aimed more at those who are workplace trainers or facilitators support adults in the development of new skills. It's a short cup/a/soup called Helping. Equally, it could be useful for anyone contemplating the helping relationship. Have you ever had the misfortune to fall over in public or witness somebody else taking a tumble. It's yes to both of those scenarios for me and in my experience - there's a common theme which relates to the helping relationship. It's inspired by one of my cycling adventures, the work of Edgar Schein and a reflection from my friend and colleague, Rich Bennett. Facilitators and trainers - I'd love to get your feedback on this episode - does this resonate with you and your experience? Would you like to see more episodes like this? Shownotes are at - www.rossmcintosh.co.uk Twitter https://twitter.com/PeopleSoupPod https://twitter.com/RossMcCOACH Instagram https://www.instagram.com/people.soup/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/peoplesouppod/ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ross-mcintosh-261a2a22/ Linktree - for links to many other podcast platforms and apps - linktr.ee/PeopleSoup And you can support the podcast by buying me a coffee! https://ko-fi.com/peoplesoup

***Get Your FREE GUIDE to Build Your Church Website in 30 Days here: https://brandonpardekooper.com/30daywebsite/ Your staff has a culture, the question is, are you intentionally designing it or passively letting it grow on its own. In this episode, I am going to give you 6 levers you can use at your disposal to purposefully, intentionally, and missionally develop your staff culture so that everyone is productive, effective, and contributing to the advancement of God's Kingdom. At the same time, it is a staff culture that you are proud of as the pastor, excited to engage with, and proud to serve in ministry alongside. The levers mentioned in this episode are pulled from "Organizational Culture and Leadership" by Edgar Schein. https://amzn.to/35FHPeU --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/ministryhackers/message