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About Patrick McFadinPatrick McFadin is the VP of Developer Relations at DataStax, where he leads a team devoted to making users of Apache Cassandra successful. He has also worked as Chief Evangelist for Apache Cassandra and consultant for DataStax, where he helped build some of the largest and exciting deployments in production. Previous to DataStax, he was Chief Architect at Hobsons and an Oracle DBA/Developer for over 15 years.Twitter: @PatrickMcFadinLinkedIn: Patrick McFadin DataStax website: datastax.comK8ssandra: k8ssandra.ioStargate: stargate.ioDataStax Astra: Cassandra-as-a-ServiceWatch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/-BcIL3VlrjEThis episode sponsored by CBT Nuggets and Fauna.TranscriptJeremy: Hi everyone, I'm Jeremy Daly and this is Serverless Chats. Today I'm chatting with Patrick McFadin. Hey Patrick, thanks for joining me.Patrick: Hi Jeremy. How are you doing today?Jeremy: I am doing really well. So you are the VP of Developer Relations at DataStax, so I'd love it if you could tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what DataStax is all about.Patrick: Sure. Well, I mean mostly I'm just a nerd with a cool job. I get to talk about technology a lot and work with technology. So DataStax, we're a company that was founded around Apache Cassandra, just supporting and making it awesome. And that's really where I came to the company. I've been working with Apache Cassandra for about 10 years now. I've been a part of the project as a contributor.But yeah, I mean mostly data infrastructure has been my life for most of my career. I did this in the dotcom era, back when it was really crazy when we had dozens of users. And when that washed out, I'm like, oh, then real scale started and during that period of time I worked a lot in just trying to scale infrastructure. It seems like that's been what I've been doing for like 30 years it seems like, 20 years, 20 years, I'm not that old. Yeah. But yeah, right now, I spend a lot of my time just working with developers on what's next in Kubernetes and I'm part of CNCF now, so yeah. I just can't to seem to stay in one place.Jeremy: Well, so I'm super interested in the work that DataStax is doing because I have had the pleasure/misfortune of managing a Cassandra ring for a start-up that I was at. And it was a very painful process, but once it was set up and it was running, it wasn't too, too bad. I mean, we always had some issues here and there, but this idea of taking a really good database, because Cassandra's great, it's an excellent data store, but managing it is a nightmare and finding people who can manage it is sort of a nightmare, and all that kind of stuff. And so this idea of taking these services and DataStax isn't the only one to do this, but to take these open-source services and turn them into these hosted solutions is pretty fantastic. So can you tell me a little bit more, though? What this shift is about? This moving away from hosting your own databases to using databases as a service?Patrick: Yeah. Well, you touched on something important. You want to take that power, I mean Cassandra was a database that was built in the scale world. It was built to solve a problem, but it was also built by engineers who really loved distributed computing, like myself, and it's funny you say like, "Oh, once I got it running, it was great," well, that's kind of the experience with most distributed databases, is it's hard to reason around having, "Oh, I have 100 mouths to feed now. And if one of them goes nuts, then I have to figure it out."But it's the power, that power, it's like stealing fire from the gods, right? It's like, "Oh, we could take the technology that Netflix and Apple and Facebook use and use it in our own stuff." But you got to pay the price, the gods demand their payment. And that's something that we've been really trying to tackle at DataStax for a couple of years now, actually three, which is how ... Because the era of running your own database is coming to an end. You should not run your own database. And my philosophy as a technologist is that proper, really important technology like your data layer should just fade into the background and it's just something you use, it's not something you have to reason through very much.There's lots of technology that's like that today. How many times have you ... When was the last time you managed your own memory in your code?Jeremy: Right. Right. Good point. I know.Patrick: Thank god, huh?Jeremy: Exactly.Patrick: Whew.Jeremy: But I think that you make a really good point, because you do have these larger companies like Facebook or whatever that are using these technologies and you mentioned data layers, which I don't think I've worked for a single company, I don't think I actually ... I founded a start-up one time and we built a data layer as well, because it's like, the complexity of understanding the transaction models and the routing, especially if you're doing things like sharding and all kinds of crazy stuff like that, hiding that complexity from your developers so that they can just say, "I need to get this piece of information," or, "I need to set this piece of information," is really powerful.But then you get stuck with these data layers that are bespoke and they're generally fragile and things like that, so how is that you can take data as a service and maybe get rid of some of that, I don't know, some of that liability I guess?Patrick: Yeah. It's funny because you were talking about sharding and things like that. These are things that we force on developers to reason through, and it's just cognitive load. I have an app to get out, and I have some business desire to get this application online, the last thing I need to worry about is my sharding algorithm. Jeremy, friends don't let friends shard.Jeremy: Right. That's right. That's a good point.Patrick: But yeah, I mean I think we actually have all the parts that we need and it's just about, this is closer than you think. Look at where we've already started going, and that is with APIs, using REST. Now GraphQL, which I think is deserving its hotness, is starting to bring together some things that are really important for this kind of world we want to live in. GraphQL is uni-fettering data and collecting and actual queries, it's a QL, and why they call it Graph, I have no idea. But it gives you this ability to have this more abstract layer.I think GraphQL will, here's a prediction is that it's going to be like the SQL of working with data services on the internet and for cloud-native applications. And so what does that mean? Well, that means I just have to know, well, I need some data and I don't really care what's underneath it. I don't care if I have this field indexed or anything like that. And that's pretty exciting to me because then we're writing apps at that point.Jeremy: Right. Yeah. And actually, that's one of the things I really like about GraphQL too is just this idea that it's almost like a universal data access layer in a sense because it does, you still have to know it, you have to know what you're requesting if you're an end developer, but it makes it easier to request the things that you need and have those mutations set and have some of those other things standardized across the company, but in a common format because isn't that another problem? Where it's like, I'm working with company A and I move to company B maybe and now company B is using a different technology and a different bespoke data layer and some of these other things.So, I think data as a service for one, maybe with GraphQL in front of it is a great way to have this alignment across companies, or I guess, just makes it easier for developers to switch and start developing right away when they move into a new company.Patrick: Yeah, and this is a concept I've been trying to push pretty hard and it's driven by some conversations I've had with some friends that they're engineering leaders and they have this common desire. We want to have a zero day dev, which is the first day that someone starts, they should be producing production code. And I don't think that's crazy talk, we can do this, but there's a lot of things that are in front of it. And the database is one of them. I think that's one of the first things you do when you show up at company X is like, "Okay, what database are you using? What flavor of SQL or GRPC or CQL, Cassandra query language? What's the data model? Quick, where's that big diagram on the wall with my ERD? I got to go look at that for a while."Jeremy: How poorly did you structure your Git repositories? Yeah.Patrick: Yeah, exactly. It's like all these things. And no, I would love to see a world where the most troublesome part of your first day is figuring out where the coffee and the bathroom are, and then the rest of it is just total, "Hey, I can do this. This is what I get paid to do."Jeremy: Right. Yeah. So that idea of zero day developer, I love that idea and I know other companies are trying to do that, but what enables that? Is it getting the idea of having to understand something bespoke? Is it getting that off of the table? Or not having to deal with the low-level database aspect of things? I mean because APIs, I had this conversation with Rob Sutter, actually, a couple weeks ago. And we were talking about the API economy and how everything is moving towards APIs. And even data, it was around data as well.So, is that the interface, you think, of the future that just says, "Look, trying to interface directly with a database or trying to work with some other layer of abstraction just doesn't make sense, let's just go straight from code right to the data, with a very simple API interface?"Patrick: Yeah, I think so. And it's this idea of data services because if you think of if you're doing React, or something like a front-end code, I don't want to have a driver. Drivers are a total impediment. It's like, driver hell can be difficult at large organizations, getting the matching right. Oh, we're using this database so you have to use this driver. And if you don't, you are now rejected at the gate. So it's using HTTP protocols, but it's also things like when you're using React or Angular, View, whatever you're using on the front-end, you have direct access.But most times what you're needing is just a collection or an object. And so just do a get, "I need this thing right now. I'm doing a pick list. I need your collection." I don't need a complicated setup and spend the first three days figuring out which driver I'm using and make sure my Gradle file is just perfect. Yeah. So, I think that's it.Jeremy: Yeah. No, I'd be curious how you feel about ORMs, or O-R-Ms, certainly for relational databases, I know a lot of people love them. I can't stand them. I think it adds a layer of abstraction and just more complexity where I just want access to the database. I want to write the query myself, and as soon as you start adding in all this extra stuff on top of it to try to make it easier, I don't know, it just seems to mess it up for me.Patrick: All right. So yeah, I think we have an accord. I am really not a fan of ORMs at all. And I mean this goes back to Hibernate. Everyone's like, "Oh, Hibernate's going to be the end of databases." No, it's not. Oh yeah, it was the end of the database at the other side because it would create these ridiculous queries. It's like, why is every query a full table scan?Jeremy: Exactly.Patrick: Because that's the way Hibernate wanted it. Yeah. I actually banned Hibernate at one company I was working at. I was Chief Architect there and I just said, "Don't ever put Hibernate in our production." Because I had more meetings about what it was doing wrong than what it was doing right.Jeremy: Right. Right. Yeah. No, that's sounds, yeah.Patrick: Is that a long answer? Like, no.Jeremy: No, I've had the same experience where certain ORMs you're just like, no. Certain things, you can't do this because it's going to one, I think it locks you in in a sense, I mean there's all kind of lock-in in the cloud, and if you're using a data service or an API or you're using something native in AWS, or IBM Cloud, you're still going to be locked in in some way, but I do feel like whenever you start going down that path of building custom things, or forcing developers to get really low level, that just builds up all kinds of tech debt, right? That you eventually are going to have to work down.Patrick: Well, it's organizational inertia. When you start getting into this, when you start using annotations in Hibernate where you're just cutting through all the layers and now you're way down in the weeds, try to move that. There's a couple of companies that I've worked with now that are looking at the true reality of portability in their data stores. Like, "Oh, we want to move from one to a different, from a key value to a document without developers knowing." Well, how do you get to that point?Jeremy: Right. Yeah.Patrick: And it's just, that's not giving access to those things, first of all, but this is that tech debt that's going to get in your way. We're really good, technologists, we're really good at just wracking up the charges on our tech debt credit card, especially whenever we're trying to get things out the door quickly. And I think that's actually one of the problems that we all face. I mean, I don't think I've ever talked to a developer who was ahead of schedule and didn't have somebody breathing down their neck.Jeremy: Very true.Patrick: You take shortcuts. You're like, "We've got to shift this code this week. Skip the annotations and go straight into the database and get the data you need." Or something. You start making trade-offs real fast.Jeremy: What can we hard code that will just get us past.Patrick: Yeah. Is it green? Shift it. Yeah.Jeremy: Yeah, no, I totally, totally agree. All right. So let's talk a little bit more about, I guess, skillsets and things like that. Because there are so many different databases out there. Cassandra is just one and if you're a developer working just at the driver level, I guess, with something like Cassandra, it's not horrible to work with. It's relatively easy once a lot of these things are set up for you.Same is true of MongoBD, or I mean, DynamoDB, or any of these other ones where the interface to it isn't overly difficult, but there's always some sort of something you want to build on top of it to make it a little bit easier. But I'm just curious, in terms of learning these different things and switching between organizations and so forth, there is a cognitive load going from saying, "I'm working on Cassandra," to going to saying, "I'm working on DynamoDB," or something like that. There's going to be a shift in understanding of how the data can be brought back, what the limitations are, just a whole bunch of things that you kind of have to think about. And that's not even including managing the actual thing. That's a whole other thing.So, hiring people, I guess, or hiring developers, how much do we want developers to know? Are you on board with me where it's like, I mean I like understanding how Cassandra works and I like understanding how DynamoDB works, and I like knowing the limits, but I also don't want to think about them when I'm writing code.Patrick: Yeah. Well, it's interesting because Cassandra, one of the things I really loved about Cassandra initially was just how it works. As a computer scientist, I was like, "This is really neat." I mean, my degree field is in distributed computing, so of course, I'm going to nerd out.Jeremy: There you go.Patrick: But that doesn't mean that it doesn't have mass appeal because it's doing the thing that people want. And I think that's going to be the challenge of any properly built service layer. I think I've mentioned to you before we started this, I work on a project called Stargate. And Stargate is a project that is meant to build a data layer on top of databases. And right now it's with Cassandra. And it's abstracting away some of the harder to understand or reason things.For instance, with distributed computing, we're trying to reduce the reliance on coordination. There is a great article about this by Pat Helland about how coordination is the last really expensive thing that we have in development. Memory, CPU, super cheap. I can rent that all day long. Coordination is really, really hard, and I don't expect a new programmer to understand, to reason through coordination problems. "Oh, yeah, the just in time race conditions," and things like that.And I think that's where distributed computing, it's super powerful, but then whenever people see what eventual consistency are, they freak out and they're like, "I just want my SQL Lite on my laptop. It's very safe." But that's not going to get you there. That's not a global database, it's not going to be able to take you to a billion users. Come on, don't cut ...Jeremy: Maybe you don't need to be.Patrick: ... your apps short Jeremy. You're going to have a billion users.Jeremy: You should strive for it, at least, is how I feel about it. So that's, I guess, the point I was trying to get to is that if the developers are the ones that you don't want learning some of this stuff, and there's ways to abstract it away again, going like we talked about data as a service and APIs and so forth. And I think that's where I would love to see things shifting. And as you said earlier, that's probably where things are going.But if you did want to run your own database cluster, and you wanted to do this on your own, I mean you have to hire people that know how to do this stuff. And the more I see the market heating up for this type of person, there is very, very few specialists out there that are probably available. So how would you even hire somebody to run your Cassandra ring? They probably all work at DataStax.Patrick: No, not all of them. There's a few that work at Target and FedEx, Apple, the biggest Cassandra users in the world. Huawei. We just found out lately that Huawei now has the biggest cluster on the planet. Yeah. They just showed up at ApacheCon and said, "Oh yeah, hold my beer." But I mean, you're right, it's a specialized skillset and one of the things we're doing at DataStax, we feel, yeah, you should just rent that. And so we have Astra, which is our database as a service.It's fully compatible with open-source Cassandra. If you don't like it, you can just take it over and use open-source. But we agree and we actually can run Cassandra cheaper than you can, and it's just because we can do it at scale. And right now Astra, the way we run it is truly serverless, you only pay for what you need, and that's something that we're bringing to the open-source side of Cassandra as well, but we're getting Cassandra closer to Kubernetes internally.So if you don't want to think about Kubernetes, if you don't want to think about all that stuff, you can just rent it from us, or you could just go use it in open-source, either way. But you're right. I mean, it should not be a 2020s skillset is, "Get better at running Cassandra." I think those days should be, leave it to, if you want to go work at DataStax and run Cassandra, great, we're hiring right now, you will love it. You don't have to. Yeah.Jeremy: So the idea of it being open-source, so again, I'm not a huge fan of this idea of vendor lock-in. I think if you want to run on AWS Lambda, yeah, most of what you can do can only run on AWS Lambda, but changing the compute, switching that over to Azure or switching that over to GCP or something like that, the compute itself is probably not that hard to move, right? I think especially depending on what you're doing, setting up an entire Kubernetes cluster just to run a few functions is probably not worth it. I mean, obviously, if you've got a much bigger implementation, that's a little different.But with data, data is just locked in. No matter where you go, it is very hard to move a lot of data. So even with the open-source flair that you have there, do you still see a worry about lock in from a data side?Patrick: Yeah. And it's becoming more of a concern with larger companies too, because options, #options. There was a pretty famous story a few years ago where the CEO of Target said, "I am not paying Amazon any more money," and they just picked up shop and moved from AWS to Google Cloud. And the CEO made a technical decision. It was like everybody downstream had to deal with that. And I think that luckily Target's a huge Cassandra shop and they were just like, "Okay, we'll just move it over there."But the thing is that you're right, I mean, and I love talking about this because back when cloud was first starting and I was talking about it and thinking about it, just what do the clouds promise you? Oh, you get commodity scale of CPU and network and storage. And that's what they want to sell you because that what they're building. Those big buildings in north Virginia, they are full of compute network and storage, but the thing they know they need to hook you in and the way that they're hooking you in, there's some services that are really handy, they're great, but really the hook is the data.Once you get into the database, the bespoke database for the cloud, one of the features of that database is it will not connect to any other database outside of that cloud, and they know that. I mean, and this is why I really strongly am starting to advocate this idea of this move towards data on Kubernetes is a way where open-source gets to take back the cloud. Because now we're deploying these virtual data centers and using open-source technology to create this portability. So we can use the compute network and storage, a Google, Amazon, Azure, OnPrem wherever, doesn't matter.But you need to think of like, "All right. How is that going to work?" And that's why we're like, "If you rent your Cassandra from DataStax with Astra, you can also use the open-source Cassandra as well." And if we aren't keeping you happy, you should feel totally fine with moving it to an open-source workload. And we're good with that. One way or the other, we would love for you to use a database that works for you.Jeremy: Right. And so this Stargate project that you're working on, is that the one that allows you to basically route to multiple databases?Patrick: That's the dream. Right now it just does Cassandra, but there's been some really interesting ... There's some folks coming out of the woodwork that really want to bring their database technology to Stargate. And that's what I'm encouraged by. It's an open-source project, Stargate.io, and you can contribute any of the connectors for underlying data store, but if we're using GraphQL, if you're using GRPC, if you're using REST, the underlying data store is really somewhat irrelevant in that case. You're just doing gets and puts, or gets and sets. Gets and puts, yeah, that's right. Gets, sets, puts, it's a lot of words.Jeremy: Whatever words. Yeah. Exactly.Patrick: That's what I love about standard, Jeremy, there's so many to pick from.Jeremy: Right, because there are ... Exactly, which standard do you choose? Yeah. So, because that's an interesting thing for me too, is just this idea of, I mean, it would be great to live in a perfect little cloud where you could say like, "Oh, well AWS has all the services I need. And I can just keep all my stuff there, whatever." But best of breed services, or again, the cost of hosting something in AWS maybe if you're hosting a Cassandra cluster there, versus maybe hosting it in GCP or maybe hosting it with you, you said you could host it cheaper than those could, or that we could host it ourselves.And so I do think that there is ... and again, we've had this conversation about multi-cloud and things like that where it's not about agnostic, it's not about being cloud agnostic, it's about using the best of breed for any service that you want to use. And APIs seem to be the way to get you there. So I love this idea of the Stargate project because it just seems like that's the way where it could be that standard across all these different clouds and onto all these different databases, well I mean, right now Cassandra, but eventually these other ones. I don't know, that seems like a pretty powerful project to me.Patrick: Well, the time has come. It's cloud native ... I work a lot with CNCF and cloud-native data is a kind of emerging topic. It's so emerging that I'm actually in the middle of writing a book, an O'Reilly book on it. So, yeah. Surprise. I just dropped it. This just in.Yeah, because I can see that this is going to be the future, but when we build cloud-native, cloud applications, cloud-native applications, we want scale, we want elasticity, and we want self-healing. Those are the three cloud-native things that we want. And that doesn't give us a whole lot ... So if I want to crank out a quick REACT app, that's what I'm going to use. And Netlify's a great example, or Vercel, they're creating this abstraction layer. But Netlify and Vercel are both working, they've been partnering with us on the Stargate project, because they're seeing like, "Okay, we want to have that very light touch, developers just come in and use it," in building cloud-native applications.And whenever you're building your application, you're just paying for what you use. And I think that's really key, not spinning up a bunch of infrastructure that you get a monthly bill for. And that bill can be expensive.Jeremy: It seems crazy. Doesn't it seem crazy nowadays? Actually provisioning an EC2 instance and paying for it to run even if it does nothing. That seems crazy to me.Patrick: There are start-ups around the idea of finding the instance that's running that's causing you money that you're not using.Jeremy: Which is crazy, isn't it? It's crazy. All right. So let's go a little bit more into standards, because you mentioned standards. So there are standards now for a lot of things, and again, GraphQL being a great example, I think. But also from a database perspective, looking at things like TSQL and developers come into an organization and they're familiar with MySQL, or they're familiar with PostgreSQL, whatever it is. Or maybe they're familiar with Cassandra or something like that, but I think most people, at least from what I've seen, have been very, very comfortable with the TSQL approach to getting data. So, how do you bring developers in and start teaching them or getting them to understand more of that NoSQL feel?Patrick: I think it's already happened, it's just the translation hasn't happened in a lot of minds. When you go to build an application, you're designing your application around the workflows your application's going to have. You're always thinking about like, "I click on this. I go there." I mean, this is where we wireframe out the application. At that point, your database is now involved and I don't think a lot of folks know that.It's like, at every point you need to put data or get data. And I think this is where we've taught could be anybody building applications, which makes it really difficult to be like, "No, no, no, start with your data domain first and build out all those models. And then you write your application to go against those models." And I'll tell you, I've been involved in a few of these application boot camps, like JavaScript boot camps and things, they don't go into data modeling. It's just not a part of it.Jeremy: Really?Patrick: And I think this is that thing where we have to acknowledge like, "Yeah, we don't really need that anymore as much, because we're just building applications." If I build a React app, and I have a form and I'm managing the authentication and I click a button and then I get a profile information, I just described every database interaction that I need and the objects that I need. And I'm going to put my user profile at some point, I'm going to click my ID and get that profile back as an object. Those are the interactions that I need. At no point did I say, "And then I'm going to write select from where." No, I just need to get that data.Jeremy: And I love thinking about data as objects anyways. It makes more sense, rather than rows of spreadsheets essentially that you join together, describing an object even if it's got nested data, like a document form or things like that, I think makes a ton of sense. But is SQL, is it still relevant do you think? I mean, in the world we're moving into? Should I be teaching my daughters how to write TSQL? Or would I be wasting my time?Patrick: Yeah. Well, yes and no. Depends on what your kid's doing. I think that SQL will go to where it originally started and where it will eventually end, which is in data engineering and data science. And I mean, I still use SQL every once in a while, Bigtable, that sort of thing, for exploring my data. I mean for an analytics career or reporting data and things like that, SQL is very expressive. I don't see any reason to change that. But this is a guy who's been writing SQL for a million years.But I mean, that world is still really moving. I mean, like a Presto and Snowflake and all these, Redshift, they all use Bigtable, they all use SQL to express the reporting capabilities. But ... And I think this is how you and I got sucked into this is like, well that was the database that we had, so we started using reporting languages to build applications. And how'd that work out?Jeremy: Yeah. Well, it certainly didn't scale very well, I can tell you that, going back to sharding, because that is always something that was very hard to do. So I guess, I get the point that essentially if you're going to be in the data sciences and you actually need to analyze that data and maybe you do need to do joins, or maybe you need to work with big data in a way, that's a specialized aspect of it and I think people could dabble in that if they were just regular developers and they didn't want to go too deep.But it sounds like the bigger, or the end goal here, maybe altruistic, is to just give people access to data. So even if they don't know SQL or they don't know something complex, just make it so that whatever data is there that anybody, with whatever level is, they can consume it.Patrick: Yeah. And move fast with the thing that you're building. Actually, I use a Facebook term, but Facebook does do this. Internally there's a system called Occhio that provides gets and puts for your data, but it abstracts things like geographics and things like that. But the companies that are trying to move quickly, they understood this a long time ago. If you have to reason through, "Am I doing a full table scan? Is that an efficient interjoin?" If you have to reason through that, you're not moving fast anymore.Jeremy: Right. Right. All right. Cool. All right, so let's talk about Astra a little bit more and this whole idea of, because Astra is the serverless version, the hosted version, the serverless version of Cassandra, right? Through DataStax?Patrick: Right. And ...Jeremy: Did I get that right?Patrick: You got it right. And so it gives you full access. You could do Port 9042 if you still want to use a driver, but it gives you access via GraphQL, REST, and there's also a document API. So if you just want to persist your JavaScript API or JavaScript and then pull it back out your JSON, it does full documents. So it emulates what a MongoDB or DocumenDB does. But the important thing, and this is the somewhat revolutionary side of this, and again, this is something that we're looking to put into open-source, is the serverless nature of it.You only pay for what you use. And when you want to create a Cassandra database, we don't even call it a Cassandra database on the Astra panel anymore. We just create a database. You give it a name. You click. And it's ready. And it will scale infinitely. As long as we can find some compute and network for you to use somewhere, it'll just keep scaling and that's kind of that true portion of serverless that we're really trying to make happen. And for me, that's exciting because finally, all that power that I feel like I've been hoarding for a long time is now available for so many more people.And then if you do a million writes per second for 10 minutes and then you turn it off, you only pay for that little short amount of time. And it scales back. You're not paying a persistent charge forever.Jeremy: I'm just curious from a technical implementation, because I'm thinking about PTSD or nightmares back of my days running Cassandra, and so I'm just trying to think how this works. Is it a shared tenancy model? Or is there a way to do single tenancy if you wanted that as a service?Patrick: Under the covers, yes, it is multi-tenant, but the way that we are created ... so we had to do some really interesting engineering inside. So my RCO's going to kill me if I talk about this, but hey, you know what, Jeremy? We're friends, we can do this. He's like, "Don't talk about the underlying architecture." I'm talking about the underlying architecture. The thing that we did was we took Cassandra and we decomposed it into microservices mostly. That's probably, it's still Cassandra, it's just how we run it makes it way more amenable to doing multi-tenant and scale in that fashion where the queries are separated from the storage and things that are running in the background, like if you're familiar with Cassandra because it's a log structure storage, you ask to do compactions and things like that, all that's just kind of on the side. It doesn't impact your query.But it gives us the ability to, if you create a database and all of a sudden you just hammer it with a million writes per second, there's enough infrastructure in total to cover it. And then we'll spin up more in the back to cover everything else. And then whenever you're done, we retract it back. That's how we keep our costs down. But then the storage side is separated and away from the compute side, and the storage side can scale its own way as well.And so whenever you need to store a petabyte of Cassandra data, you're just storing, you're just charged for the petabyte of storage on disk, not the thousandth of a cluster that you just created. Yeah.Jeremy: No. I love that. Thank you for explaining that though, because that is, every time I talk to somebody who's building a database or running some complex thing for a database, there's always magic. Somebody has to build some magic to make it actually work the way everyone hopes it would work. And so if anybody is listening to this and is like, "Ah, I'm just getting ready to spin up our own Cassandra ring," just think about these things because these are the really hard problems that are great to have a team of people working on that can solve this specific problem for you and abstract all of that crap away.Patrick: Yeah. Well, I mean it goes back to the Dynamo paper, and how distributed databases work, but it requires that they have a certain baseline. And they're all working together in some way. And Cassandra is a share-nothing architecture. I mean you don't have a leader note or anything like that. But like I said, because that data is spread out, you could have these little intermittent problems that you don't want to have to think about. Just leave that to somebody else. Somebody else has got a Grafana dashboard that's freaking out. Let them deal with it. But you can route around those problems really easily.Jeremy: Yeah. No, that's amazing. All right. So a couple more technical questions, because I'm always curious how some of these things work. So if somebody signs up and they set up this database and they want to connect to it, you mentioned you could use the driver, you mentioned you can use GraphQL or the REST API, or the Document API. What's the authentication method look like for that?Patrick: Yeah. So, it's a pretty standard thing with tokens. You create your access tokens, so when you create the database, you define the way that you access it with the token, and then whenever you connect to it, if you're using JavaScript, there's a couple of collection libraries that just have that as one of the environment variables.And so it's pretty standard for connecting the cloud databases now where you have your authentication token. And you can revoke that token at any time. So for instance, if you mistakenly commit that into your Git ...Jeremy: Say GitHub. We've never done that before.Patrick: No judging. You can revoke it immediately. But it also gives you our back, the controls over it's a read or write or admin, if you need to create new tables and that sort of thing. You can give that level of access to whatever that token is. So, very simple model, but then at that point, you're just interacting through a REST call or using any of the HTTP protocols or SQL protocol.Jeremy: And now, can you create multiple tokens with different levels of permission or is it all just token gives you full access?Patrick: No, it's multiple levels of protection and actually that's probably the best way to do it, for instance, if your CI/CD system, has the ability to, it should be able to create databases and tear them down, right? That would be a good use for that, but if you have, for instance, a very basic application, you just want it to be able to read and write. You don't want to change any of the underlying data structures.Jeremy: Right. Right.Patrick: That's a good layer of control, and so you can have all these layers going on one single database. But you can even have read-only access too, for ... I think that's something that's becoming more and more common now that there's reporting systems that are on the side.Jeremy: Right. Right. Good.Patrick: No, you can only read from the database.Jeremy: And what about data backups or exporting data or anything like that?Patrick: Yeah, we have a pretty rudimentary backup now, and we will probably, we're working on some more sophisticated versions of it. Data backup in Cassandra is pretty simple because it's all based on snapshots because if you know Cassandra the database, the data you write is immutable and that's a great way to start when you come to backup data. But yeah, we have a rudimentary backup system now where you have to, if you need to restore your data, you need to put in a ticket to have it restored at a certain point.I don't personally like that as much. I like the self-service model, and that's what we're working towards. And with more granularity, because with snapshots you can do things like snapshot, this is one of the things that we're working on, is doing like a snapshot of your production database and restoring it into a QA cluster. So, works for my house, oh, try it again. Yeah.Jeremy: That's awesome. No, so this is amazing. And I love this idea of just taking that pain of managing a database away from you. I love the idea of just make it simple to access the data. Don't create these complex things where people have to build more, and if people want to build a data access layer, the data access layer should maybe just be enforcing a model or something like that, and not having to figure out if you're on this shard, we route you to this particular port, or whatever. All that stuff is just insane, so yeah, I mean maybe go back to kind of the idea of this whole episode here, which is just, stop using databases. Start using these data services because they're so much easier to use. I mean, I'm sure there's concerns for some people, especially when you get to larger companies and you have all the compliance and things like that. I'm sure Astra and DataStax has all the compliance things and things like that. But yeah, just any final words, advice to people who might still be thinking databases are a good idea?Patrick: Well, I have an old 6502 on a breadboard, which I love to play with. It doesn't make it relevant. I'm sorry. That was a little catty, wasn't it?Jeremy: A little bit, but point well taken. I totally get what you're saying.Patrick: I mean, I think that it's, what do we do with the next generation? And this is one of the things, this will be the thought that I leave us with is, it's incumbent on a generation of engineers and programmers to make the next generation's job easier, right? We should always make it easier. So this is our chance. If you're currently working with database technology, this is your chance to not put that pain on the next generation, the people that will go past where you are. And so, this is how we move forward as a group.Jeremy: Yeah. Love it. Okay. Well Patrick, thank you so much for sharing all this and telling us about DataStax and Astra. So if people want to find out more about you or they want to find out more about Astra and DataStax, how do they do that?Patrick: All right. Well, plenty of ways at www.datastax.com and astra.datastax.com if you just want the good stuff. Cut the marketing, go to the good stuff, astra.datastax.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, Patrick McFadin. And I'm everywhere. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn or on Twitter, I love connecting with folks and finding out what you're working on, so please feel free. I get more messages now on LinkedIn than anything, and it's great.Jeremy: Yeah. It's been picking up a lot. I know. It's kind of crazy. Linked in has really picked up. It's ...Patrick: I'm good with it. Yeah.Jeremy: Yeah. It's ...Patrick: I'm really good with it.Jeremy: It's a little bit better format maybe. So you also have, we mentioned the Stargate project, so that's just Stargate.io. We didn't talk about the K8ssandra project. Is that how you say that?Patrick: Yeah, the K8ssandra project.Jeremy: K8ssandra? Is that how you say it?Patrick: K8ssandra. Isn't that a cute name?Jeremy: It's K-8-S-S-A-N-D-R-A.io.Patrick: Right.Jeremy: What's that again? That's the idea of moving Cassandra onto Kubernetes, right?Patrick: Yeah. It's not Cassandra on Kubernetes, it's Cassandra in Kubernetes.Jeremy: In Kubernetes. Oh.Patrick: So it's like in concert and working with how Kubernetes works. Yes. So it's using Cassandra as your default data store for Kubernetes. It's a very, actually it's another one of the projects that's just taking off. KubeCon was last week from where we're recording now, or two weeks ago, and it was just a huge hit because again, it's like, "Kubernetes makes my infrastructure to run easier, and Cassandra is hard, put those together. Hey, I like this idea."Jeremy: Awesome.Patrick: So, yeah.Jeremy: Cool. All right. Well, if anybody wants to find out about that stuff, I will put all of these links in the show notes. Thanks again, Patrick. Really appreciate it.Patrick: Great. Thanks, Jeremy.

Today’s episode features a conversation between Santi Siri - Founder of Democracy Earth Foundation, the Y Combinator-backed non-profit enabling token-based community participation - and Patrick Stanley, Blockstack’s Head of Growth. Together, they explore the concept of democracy, the decline of nation-states, and the potential of open-source protocols and crypto networks to enable free, sovereign, and incorruptible governance. 00:42 Patrick tells the story of how he and Santi met in San Francisco through Balaji Srinivasan. https://twitter.com/balajis https://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Individual-Mastering-Transition-Information/dp/0684832720 02:19 Patrick: "For the folks who don't know you: who are you and what have you been working on?” 02:24 Santi: "For the last six years or so I've been implementing new kinds of democratic experiments... which led to the formation of The Democracy Earth Foundation where we explore this intersection of using blockchain based networks to deploy democracy over the Internet." https://democracy.earth https://twitter.com/democracyearth 04:03 Patrick: "Can you unpack your tweet: 'The Internet is not compatible with the nation state?'" https://twitter.com/santisiri/status/998028341633568769 05:40 Santi: "If not even the US is protected from foreign influence meddling with domestic affairs, then the nation state is no more. We have to acknowledge the fact that we live in the Age of Information.” 06:05 Patrick: "Presuming that's correct, what's next then?" 06:13 Santi: "I think it's the most interesting moment in time to be working on software." 06:55 Santi: "Democracy is simply an idea that can be extremely helpful when you really need it the most: when you face disagreements as a society or organization." 07:25 Patrick: "Where do you believe democracy should be applied in the context of deep disagreements in the crypto protocol space?" 07:36 Santi: "It is challenging in crypto because it's an environment where creating an identity is extremely, extremely cheap." 08:11 Santi: "Most of the governance happening in crypto today is fundamentally proof of stake or coin voting. For private endeavors, it works very well - it's like shareholder voting. Often less than 1% has over 50% of the vote." 08:38 Patrick: "Something about that sounds wrong, doesn't it?" 08:41 Santi: "Governance is tricky because it's not just the elite that understands how the system works. There are other constituents that are the people impacted by an economy. Not everyone is an economist, but everyone is impacted by the decisions they make about the economy." 9:00 Santi: "So if you don't want to have an elite running a society and you really want a society where everyone's input is considered, democracy becomes very useful. The challenge is not just reaching the best decision in a collective way, but reaching a legitimate decision - one that the greater constituency supports, and not just a powerful minority." 9:58 Patrick: "You've been working on quadratic voting. Can you tell folks what this is and what hopes you have for it?" 10:10 Santi: "Quadratic voting is an idea that comes from the Microsoft researcher and founder of the RadicalxChange movement, Glen Weyl..." http://glenweyl.com/research/ https://radicalxchange.org/ 10:27 Santi: "The idea is you can vote on any issue and every voter gets the same amount of credits, but the more votes you put on a specific issue, it will cost you an exponential amount.” 10:58 Santi: "If you really care for one issue, the opportunity cost will be really high for not supporting other issues." 11:11 Santi: "This leads to this outcome where the winning option is something that is the preference of the community, but also - because of this interesting quality of square roots - it's also an option that has the greatest support among the quantity of voters." 11:29 Patrick: "The one catch there that I'm thinking of is Sybil attacks... how do you stop those?" 11:50 Santi: "We're actually researching using quadratic voting to validate identities themselves." 12:32 Santi: "The two requirements of quadratic voting (qv) is that you need to have a strong consensus and identities participating. This is a requirement of any democratic system. And then you have a Universal Basic Income mechanism of some kind." 12:54 Patrick: "You mentioned previously a fear of becoming Facebook in the process of solving this problem. What's the concern there?" 13:21 Santi: "Facebook became a relevant attack vector for legacy democracies because they've become the largest identity registry in the world." 13:36 Santi: "There are two ways to subvert democracy: one is control the identity registry of voters and the other one is gossip - false information that confuses the voters." 13:53 Santi: "If we're going to do any kind of formalization of identity... to help people trust that there's a human behind an address and that that human doesn't hold the keys to any other address within a consensus... we should do it in a way that prevents the formation of a monopoly." 14:20 Santi: "If you end up having a monopoly like Facebook or the People's Republic of China, then you have this Orwellian situation that works against the interests of democracy: free speech, the right to legitimate information...." 14:40 Santi: "The challenge is how do you have a marketplace that does not allow for the formation of monopolies?" 15:29 Santi: "We've been very lucky at Democracy Earth to do the first quadratic voting implementation for the state of Colorado." 15:58 Santi: "It's an incredible precedent. The first official quadratic voting round under the US government." 16:15 Patrick: "Do you feel online voting has more or fewer attack vectors than traditional voting?" 16:46 Santi: "Where there are deep disagreements, the stakes are high, and where the stakes are very high, attacks will happen." 17:21 Santi: "In traditional democracies, I think the best recommendation I've seen is actually from the German Supreme Court in 2009 where they argued... that hybrid models are ultimately best." 17:47 Santi: "The idea of paper is important because in large populations there are still not 100% digital natives. ... Our parents and elders are really digital migrants and we need to respect that reality." 18:12 Santi: "Democracy, at the end of the day, is always a work in progress.... It's really an ideology about how we make decisions." 18:47 Santi: "We cannot surrender this battle in the world of crypto." 18:56 Santi: "If this is the new world that we're creating... a new kind of plutocracy or oligarchy... we deserve better... and we should be daring to think about what democracy means in all of these contexts." 19:12 Santi: "We can really make something better that what the nation state has given us." 19:17 Patrick: "What are you excited about and see as worth pursuing in the next 20 or so years?" 19:48 Santi: "The rise of nations and the idea of nationality was a consequence of information technology. The printing press allowed for people to start writing and publishing books not in the language of power - that was Latin - but in their vernacular local languages. ... that gave this sense of being part of a large imagined community through literature." 20:23 Santi: "With crypto I think we're witnessing a similar phenomenon. In the rise of maximalism and these new protocols are a kind of nationalism." 20:32 Santi: "It's very clear these are nations founded not in a common language, but actually in a common ideology. If you're an Austrian economics money fetishist, you'll be a Bitcoiner." 21:22 Santi: "We troll each other too much, but we're really good, nice idealists." 21:35 Patrick: "The great thing about Twitter is you can lose your mind in public." 21:50 Santi: "The revolution of our generation is in crypto." 22:01 Patrick: "I would classify Bitcoiners as probably more libertarian, conservative leaning, less likely to be liberal - not to say there aren't any liberals in Bitcoin - and very much in the Hayek/Austrian school of economic thinking." 22:38 Patrick: "It does feel like people are splitting up into their own ideologies, but it still does feel like it's very early on and we're kind of in the Germanic nation state building era." 22:51 Santi: "We're discovering where the boundaries and new geographies and frontiers are. But there are frontiers and maximalism as nationalism is a very real thing." 23:06 Patrick: "Definitely. And I also think there will be fights and violence and - at a minimum - cyber warfare and meme warfare and potentially physical warfare between protocols. There's a lot at stake - especially over a long enough timeline, if these things accrue value." 23:33 Patrick: "Crypto is inherently political." 24:10 Santi: "I recently was with an expert on military defense and strategy and the way they approach the idea of how the world is at right now around in terms of cyber attacks and this whole new ground of the battlefield is that we're not in war or peace, but a world of un-peace. Everyone has to assume they've already been attacked." 25:10 Santi: "In China, you have to use a VPN. It's interesting. ... being there really pushes you to think about how you're being observed." 25:38 Patrick: "What changed in your mind about China visiting recently?" 25:43 Santi: "It's the one place where Communism took over and won and it's been the highest growth country on the whole planet for the last three to four decades." 26:08 Santi: "It turns out the Communist elites are the best administrators of modern capitalism." 26:23 Santi: "You feel the authoritarian state everywhere. You see cameras everywhere." 26:46 Santi: "There are some things about the transformation of China that you can really see being there. Of course, they are the worst about free speech - you have to access the Internet through a VPN. But on climate change, the silence coming from every single motor [being electric] in Beijing is really mind blowing." 27:31 Santi: "Communism was this terrible thing in the 20th Century. I watched the horror of Venezuela very closely and went to Cuba for a month when I was very young and it was a heartbreaking environment. It really was a big failure." 27:45 Santi: "But the Chinese experiment - at the same time - had this tremendous potential of bringing 300 - 400 million people into the life of the middle class." 27:58 Santi: "I come from a developing nation and I scratch my head how we can deal with 30% of the people in my country that are below the poverty line." 28:19 Santi: "There are a lot of things going wrong [in China] - I mean they're persecuting Muslims... that's why we need the Internet." 28:32 Santi: "For Democracy Earth, I think there's no bigger, killer use case than a Chinese democracy." 28:43 Patrick: "What do you think China got right that Cuba got wrong?" 28:46 Santi: "Deng Xiaoping allowing private property and capitalism." 29:12 Santi: "It is the labor of the world - the proletariat of the world. All of our iPhones, all of our computers, all of our chips...." 29:35 Santi: "In this age where we do perceive rising inequality, we do perceive the advance of automation. ... I don't think we should be so afraid of these ideas." 30:15 Santi: "All of the revolutions that happened in the 20th century happened in poor countries." 30:47 Santi: "People are talking about taxing AIs and robots - that's kind of what Marx was talking about." 31:02 Santi: "I don't believe much in revolutions because they all have this original sin of violence and I think we have much better tools than guns." 31:26 Santi: "We can definitely use computers to create better societies." 31:34 Patrick: "If some democracy is good, is absolute democracy better? And how do you avoid the Kyklos?" 32:46 Patrick: "It's democracy, aristocracy, and monarchy. And the three degenerate forms of these are ochlocracy, oligarchy, and tyranny." 33:08 Santi: "These thinkers are trying to find the gears of history, which are very hard to find. But if they are somewhere, I think it's looking through the lens information and information theory." 33:27 Santi: "I don't like absolutist ideas in politics. We need to use different tools for different means. It's evident that private endeavors and companies are much better governed by dictators - some people call them CEOs.” 34:04 Santi: "What I'm reading a lot lately is 'An Introduction to the Theory of Mechanism Design’ by Tobin Borgers." https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Theory-Mechanism-Design/dp/019973402X 34:43 Santi: "I began my career as a video game developer and today I find myself reading a lot about game theory as it applies to the context of crypto." 35:10 Patrick: "Any other recommendations for books about game theory?" 35:24 Santi: "George Gilder's 'Knowledge and Power' which applies an information theory lens to understand capitalism." 35:46 Patrick: "There's probably a lot of listeners trying to learn more about how democracy can work online and what are the hard problems being solved... what would you recommend checking out?" 36:04 Santi: "I feel compelled to recommend the work we've been doing at Democracy Earth at democracy.earth and @democracyearth on Twitter." 36:43 Santi: "Everyone I talk to is very confused about things right now." 36:50 Patrick: "What do you mean?" 37:16 Santi: "We lost our compass in terms of what's democracy in modern day America - in the civilization we're creating. So we're all in a state of confusion." 37:31 Patrick: "Any other books or blog posts you'd recommend to listeners on democracy?" 37:37 Santi: "Hélène Landemore's 'Democratic Reason'" https://press.princeton.edu/titles/9907.html 38:07 Goodbyes. 38:19 Credits. Santi Siri: twitter.com/SantiSiri Patrick Stanley: twitter.com/PatrickWStanley Zach Valenti: twitter.com/ZachValenti See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Once upon a time I (Joe) had an AdWords PPC budget that hit $45,000 a month. Over 5 years I learned AdWords on my own, had no training, a half dozen campaigns and a handful of ad groups. I thought I was pretty savvy and successful. This was about 10 years ago and to be frank, I'm older, wiser, more seasoned and would tell my 10-year younger self that I was a novice and wasting a TON of money. Don't be like me. Since 2010 I have heard dozens of entrepreneurs tell me they outsourced their paid advertising unsuccessfully. So when Jason Yelowitz introduced me to Strike Social Founder I was a little skeptical. But success and growth speak for themselves. Patrick McKenna boot strapped Strike Social from his kitchen table in a rented home in LA about 5 years ago. In 2016 Strike Social was named on the Inc. 500 List for the fastest growing companies. Their rank? Number 17! Strike Social helps brands improve their paid advertising campaigns, dramatically. One example Patrick gives is an ecommerce company that had their CPA go from $80 dollars to $16. This created great problems for the client. The first was rapid growth and much better margins. The second was access (or lack thereof) to monies for inventory. As you likely know – running out of inventory is an issue. Rapidly growing brands lack access to capital, run out of inventory and lose ground on the path to growth. Strike Social does a free analysis of a client's paid ad campaigns, a free test, and when the client comes on board and grows so fast they don't have funds for enough inventory, Strike will provide working capital for inventory. If it weren't for the rank of number 17 on the Inc. 500 list and the fact that you don't get there without proving yourself, I'd say it all seems too good to be true. After chatting with Patrick on today's Podcast, I say try them out get a free review. At the very least you'll learn what you are doing right and wrong in your own paid advertising campaigns. Episode Highlights: Instagram's paid advertising platform is the next Facebook. It's working. In Google AdWords you should have 1,000+ campaigns, not 6. Facebook is content driven and ads need constant testing. Video ads in Facebook can be as short as 3-4 seconds. YouTube is great, but not for direct conversations and CPAs. Strike Social developed technology recognized by Techcrunch.com that helped propel them to #17 on the Inc. 500 list. Strike Social will provide working capital to clients so they can ramp up inventory to match growth. Transcription: Mark: So one of the things that I find most difficult and frustrating about running a business in today's internet world is this idea of having these coordinated campaigns across multiple channels and multiple platforms, and the degree to sophistication which you need to run each campaign across each platform. For example with Facebook and Google, it's not so much to do just [inaudible 00:01:25.5] a couple of key words and hoping everything works for Facebook bring up a couple of ads and hoping it works. You really have to delve in and get super detailed. I understand Joe that you talked to somebody today that's doing this for a living. And they started a company and not only have they just started and are doing well but they're ranked really high in the Inc. 500 list specializing in running these cross-platform campaigns that are really highly refined. Joe: Yeah. It's Patrick McKenna from Strike Social and about five years ago he bootstrapped a company, he was literally working from the kitchen table in a rented house in Los Angeles. And he developed software that would analyze paid advertising campaigns and then go way beyond what you normally do in an excel file and so on and so forth. Standard stuff right? Well, that's what I thought when he was introduced to me by our very own Jason Yellowitz, they're neighbors. Patrick's company Strike Social in 2016 was ranked number 16 … no number 17 on the Inc. 500 list. And I think you and I have talked about this that that's impressive, number 17 on Inc. 500 list, you don't get there by accident. You don't get there without being really really good at what you do. Over the years, the last six years that I've been doing what I'm doing I talked to dozens and dozens and I might want to say hundreds that [inaudible 00:02:49.9] of people that started their own Google Ad Account and developed it as their business grew and managed it themselves and then got to a point where they said you know what I should outsource this. And they found somebody online and they outsourced it and what happened? It failed. That cost for acquisition went up, the budget went up and they had to bring it back in-house. Dozens of times I talked to these folks. So when I first connected with Patrick I was skeptical but then we talked, went into detail and he gave me some success stories that are really truly just incredible Mark to the point where I need you to listen to this podcast and consider talking with him about Quiet Light Advertising. They do testing for free. They do an analysis with their software and they'll do a test for free as well. And then they prove themselves and then like every other agency they get paid on a percentage of spend. But here's the kicker they've taken some clients and grown their businesses so dramatically that clients run out of inventory. That's the number one thing we tell folks is don't run out of inventory. It seems so simple but when people bootstrap the company and they grow they don't have enough working capital. And I've listened to other podcast, you know the EcommCrew Mike Jackness podcast where they talk about trying to find sources of working capital for inventory. Well, Strike Social will be that source for their very own clients. Because they've run into it so many times where it was so successful the client ran out of funds to buy more inventory. So they became that working capital source. So really impressive story, I would encourage everyone to listen all the way through to the 31 minute mark where he starts to talk about the working capital aspect of it. But there's a lot of good stuff here. He talks about some basic things that everyone should do. A quick story and then I'll stop talking. But when I ran my own Google AdWords campaign for the company that you brokered for me back in 2010, the most I ever spent was $45,000 in one month on paid advertising. I worked my way up that, up up from that in 2005 to 2010. Of course, after the crash, it was much lower but at the max … at the peak, I had a total of 10 campaigns set up in Google AdWords. And I had it all done with my keywords and I used all the software at the time to find those keywords and develop them; 10 campaigns. So in talking with Patrick, he talks about that their clients have an average of 1,000 to 6,000 campaigns and that's for one product, Mark. And that just makes me think about … again, yet again how much money I lost in two ways, really on wasted advertising spending and on not making it so good that my cost for acquisition came down dramatically. And I just want to encourage everyone that's listening to think about it and listen to what they're saying and have a conversation with them because odds are you're not doing it as well as you could be if you're doing it yourself. Just like what we talked about with book keeping, Excel is not accounting software. The basic pieces that you pull together for managing your campaigns across multiple platforms is not as good as what these guys have either. And it's worth to listen to him, worth a test I think in my opinion and experience. Mark: Yeah and I really have to agree with the fact that if you're doing it in-house and look I'm running some campaigns in-house right now for both companies that I own. That for a variety of reasons … but you have to understand if you're going to run it in-house, if you're not going to have a specialist, chances are you're not going to be doing it as well as it could be done. Because AdWords is an environment that really takes specialization. Facebook is an environment that really takes specialization. Frankly, I'm saying up a good automation sequence falls in the same category as well. So I'll be interested to listen to this. I definitely will be listening to this. I'm always looking to pick up on some information. Joe: Yeah and look Instagram is also in there as well. It's something we talked about. You know when AdWords was it that was the player Facebook came along and started to become the second option. Well, Instagram is now that option to Facebook and it's really starting to work. So those that have not expanded to those channels, listen, take a look, learn. And the other thing look this wasn't a pitch for this guy's services. This was helping people understand what they may or may not be doing right or wrong in their campaigns. And he talks about three things that you can do and focus on. And at the end Mark, I didn't ask him for a contact information like at all. It's in the show notes of course but for those that only listen the company is Strike Social. It's strikesocial.com and you can email them at hello@strikesocial.com that's hello@strikesocial.com it's a … we didn't talk about it at the end so I want to throw it in now. Mark: Awesome well let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks its Joe Valley of Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Patrick McKenna with us from Strike Social. How are you, Patrick? Patrick: I'm good. How are you, Joe? Joe: I'm fantastic. Folks, anybody that knows Jason Yellowitz here at Quiet Light, you should, he's been around for I think longer than everybody except for Mark Daoust the founder of Quiet Light. Jason was my broker when I sold back in 2010 and he happens to live across the street from you right? Patrick: That's right we live in Reno, he's right across the street. Kids are always running in my house. Joe: Jason is a good man and I wouldn't mind having him as a neighbor. I often poke fun at Jason and his Bathrobe Millionaire book but it's a heck of a success story and I still don't have a piece of the bathrobe. Have you ever seen it laying around his house? Did he save it? Seriously is it like behind like a glass case hanging on the wall? Patrick: It's on the mantle sitting up there. He's very proud of that. Joe: Next time you're in I want you to take a selfie in front of it and send it to me okay? Patrick: [inaudible 00:08:47.7] Joe: Look in all seriousness Jason is top notch. He's my mentor. He's mentored to many. He's a terrific guy. And he introduced you to us. And as I mentioned before we started recording we do not do fancy introductions here at Quiet Light on the Quiet Light Podcast so I know it's going to be hard for you but I want you to brag about yourself a little bit because you have a heck of a success story. Tell us about Strike Social and what you do, what the background is and all that good stuff for us. Patrick: Sure, yeah we … you know Jason and I are sort of kindred spirits. We've been through the battle, it sounds like you have too … I mean a business is incredibly challenging. We did it like anyone else does it. We take the plunge, you bootstrap on a kitchen table out of our rental house in LA. And we started that process in March of 2013 and then we launched some technology and we got recognized in TechCrunch for this advertising technology, this analytics platform. By November after that article came out we're selling like crazy and that was some different challenges. You think initially that wow this is great and that my products rate and the market loves it. And then you start to realize that you're putting yourself out of business because you're trying to fund invoices and all those types of things that come up when you're running a business. So we went through all that stuff, raised a little money in 2014, raised a little bit more in 2015 and it's standed globally and by 2016 we're recognized in Forbes Fast 500 fastest growing companies in the US. Joe: What number were you? Patrick: Number 17. Joe: 17 out of 500? Patrick: Yeah. Joe: That's incredible. Patrick: Pretty amazing. That was up 2016 revenue numbers and we're excited to see where we land this year for Fortune List. It will be the 2018 release that will be 2017 numbers so- Joe: Got you. Patrick: It's that it so. Joe: It sounds exciting and painful all the same time. You've literally started on a kitchen table at a rental in LA. and then grew the business, bootstrapped it from there. Probably like many of the listeners who are you know the listeners that are sellers and entrepreneurs and listeners that are hoping to step into the entrepreneurial role that you're playing now. That's pretty incredible. Tell us about what Strike Social does and who your typical customers are. Patrick: Right. So initially we went out to the largest agencies in the world and we sold execution services around advertising. So initially we started with YouTube now we're across all the social platforms and search as well. But we would basically like take on and execute buys for their largest customers. So our customers will be X-box in PNG and pick any Fortune 100 brand, the big guys. And then we started doing that here in the US then we went to Asia and then went to Europe and I don't know if you know who the holding companies are but you know WPP [inaudible 00:12:17.3], the big guys that I mostly don't talk to a smaller company. So it was really nice to have that reign for us to go sell in to and it was a really profitable situation for us. And we kept building technology and investing in technology and people and locations. We have a location here in Chicago where we're headquartered. And then we have a location in Poland and a location in Manila. We've got about a hundred people here now and we've got boots on the ground from Japan, and Korea, and Australia, obviously the US, Singapore, Europe. So it's been a really really fun ride and yes you go through all of the emotional ups and downs of running a business when you're buying one. Joe: Yeah. Good problems with that kind of growth, really good problems. Talk to me about the technology that you developed that originally got you recognized in I think you said TechCrunch and you said analytics platform. Can you talk about the actual service and why someone would use … like why these B2B advertising agencies would use yours versus having an expert in-house do it. What does it do and what's different about it that made you the 17th fastest growing company in 2016? Patrick: Yeah I think when video first came out I think it was really challenging for companies to understand, it is kind of a new medium, how do I be successful here? So our analytics platform so they showed them how to be successful. But what we did is we executed the media guys. So we look like a typical agency, we don't really like that word because we built software solution to help us with that. And then overtime what we've done is we built this incredible artificial intelligence box that allows us to go across platform, plan and execute strategies. And so it's all … it's a human and technology solution combined. And like I talked about advertising now it's a complicated orchestra. And what you need at the end of that is execution so … and we can talk about that more but it's very challenging to stay up to date on these platforms and you need a partner and a technology solution to really execute and do well. Joe: Okay. And you started out with YouTube, so at that time there were not a lot of experts in the field of buying advertising, buying that advertising space on YouTube. Patrick: That's right. Joe: You know when I … when Jason sold my business back in 2010 I was spending a boatload of money on Google AdWords and I learned it from the ground up. I did it myself starting in 2005 and I … at one point I never had any training so I can't imagine how much money I wasted over the years. I mean it was a point where I topped out at spending $45,000 a month. I mean Jason loves to tell the story of how I got mad at American Express because I went above my average so I cut my advertising in half and it's the stupidest thing I've ever done. But I did it because I got mad. It is a ton of money; I blew a ton of money by not being the expert. But you guys learned that expertise in terms of buying ad space on YouTube and then you expanded to the other social media platforms. So are you now doing paid ads on Google AdWords, on Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, things of that nature? Patrick: Absolutely DBM, Amazon, all the ones- Joe: What would DBM mean? You got me right there. Patrick: Sorry … Doubleclick Bid Manager is Google's DSP solution to get the rest of the web that's not … that you can't do in AdWords. Joe: And what's DSP stand for? Patrick: Digital Supply-side Platform, so that's how Google goes and buys display advertising on say the [inaudible 00:16:36.9] within New York Times. Joe: Okay. Patrick: Yeah. So it's another Google product. It's part of their Google Suite and actually it's interesting that you bring that up that's … that they had a tagging solution there that … and we find this a lot in companies that are running small businesses on just AdWords that you can get really good multi variant testing on that platform rebuilt technology to allow you to expand that. I don't know how extensive you got with your test. But one campaign maybe you have 40 different variables, maybe you're really good and you get up to a hundred. We'll do like 6,000 with their technology. Joe: Wow. Patrick: So yeah we're testing age, demo, interest, topic, keywords- Joe: Let's get really down to it. People that are listening, their ears might be perking up and this is why we're talking because you don't get to be number 17 on the Forbes fastest growing companies by screwing up. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Because you wouldn't have the clients that would be referring and helping you grow your business further. Patrick: That's right. Joe: So my initial thought as I said on our first call was more often than not I do valuations and exe-planning for people and see that they were doing fine on their own advertising. Managing it themselves and then outsourced it and it totally blew it up as in bang and their cost for acquisition went up. And usually, in my experience, it's not a great thing. Your success in having people use your services changes my mind. So let's talk about specifically we've got folks that are … was their physical product owners and of course there's content as well but I think you said you don't really do a whole lot of content stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong but let's say we've got physical product owners that are mostly because of the crazy growth on Amazon doing Amazon sponsored ads our advice is always go well beyond Amazon grow your business so it's not one revenue channel. Your value is going to be higher but they are challenged with how to do that. So do you do an analysis on a business and you're looking at Facebook advertising for that physical products, do you take over the Amazon, sponsored ads, do you do Instagram all of these things? Patrick: Yes, all of them. And you know what before we start with any business we start with an audit to get to a genuine conversation. You'd say okay here in the platforms you're on tell us about your objectives, lets pull your data into a dashboard that you'll own and take possession of. And more so you … where we see some quick wins and easy gaps and then we'll go take you know what if you like what we're saying we'll go run a test for free to see if we can improve what you're doing. Joe: How much is the cost of the audit that you do? Patrick: It doesn't cost anything. Joe: Okay the audit is free and the test is free. Patrick: The audit is free, the test is free. That's right and we just rolled out this … the reason I'm talking to you and I'm just talking to Jason about this is you know we just rolled out this Strike Marketing Partnership. You know we have a very large e-commerce company under our belt right now and we are able to take that business and improve their cost per lead from $80 to $16 and it really grow their business. They were able to- Joe: Were they profitable at $80? Patrick: Yes. Yeah, they were. Joe: Okay. Patrick: Dramatically improved their numbers and now they're on a path to being a billion dollar company. Joe: And so you took it from $80 cost per lead … was it cost for lead or cost for acquisition or both? I guess it doesn't matter but you took it from 80 to 16 and then where they able to use the same budget or I mean- Patrick: They were able to increase it. Yeah you see that's the key and I think the one point I want to make Joe is that we are entrepreneurs here and we're in the advertising marketing space and like one of the guys that's on our staff started panatea until he started the March Air Movement and sold it to a very large Japanese company because he doesn't need to work. But he's passionate about entrepreneurs, entrepreneurship and he's an expert in building that brand. And when you said content you know content is critical in … when you start talking about AdWords and multi variant testing you can't apply that same learning over to Facebook. It's a completely different platform. Everything is grouped together. You have to be a little bit patient and let Facebook find that first customer for you. And then it starts to learn who your customer is and it's started in and it's off to the races. But if you're open at that platform and if you're doing it the same way you're doing it on AdWords whether it's YouTube or just AdWords so you're not going to perform there, you're just … you're not doing it right. Joe: Okay. Patrick: So- Joe: What are in that Amazon Seller account? Do you guys handle the sponsor ads as well? Patrick: That's right yeah and we have a seat on Amazon so we have a partnership with them. Seat means that we get a seat. Joe: You know I was going to ask that. Patrick: Yeah sorry. I can see it on your face, what's a seat? Joe: Okay. Patrick: And seat that means that we're in their partner program and we can log into their technology and buy inventory at stale. Joe: Sure. Patrick: So … yeah and that means we also have a rep, and that's the other thing to is that these platforms change all the time. And one of the recent ones was GDPR it's made a … GDPR oh. Joe: Come on now GDPR what's that? This is going to be the acronym show. What is it? Patrick: Yeah the acronym … I'm sorry, I spend a lot of time in advertising so you know neither all … there are all things … GDPR is a … it's a European Union situation where the user is in control of their own data. Joe: Okay. Patrick: And the platforms, you have to basically ask permission or I think you've probably seen on sites you go to now. They're saying a. so do you like content, you need to accept my cookie. And if you're in someone's database right now and you have a European client in your database you needed to e-mail them and say hey by the way I need you to okay the fact that you're in my database. Initially, don't do that, I mean don't be that; you can get fined significantly. Joe: Most of our … the people in the audience, the people that are listening I shouldn't say most I mean it's anywhere from somebody doing a hundred thousand a year in revenue to you know 40 to 50 million in revenue. So it's all over the map there a little bit. Let's give some stuff away for free here that I don't want this to be obviously you do the evaluation and you do the test for free. And then let me just answer that; let's answer the quick question because people are going to say well what happens after that? Do you get paid on a commission basis part of the advertising how does it … part of the advertise you spent? Patrick: Yeah I think that's why we fall in that advertising agent bucket because we get a percentage of the media. Joe: I did the same back in my Media Mind days when I used to buy time on radio; percentage of what you're spending. Patrick: There you go. Joe: And about the job you do on that cost for acquisition the more you're able to spend because the budget goes up. So it is the right- Patrick: Portion. Joe: Way to do it. Yeah. All right so let's talk about that aside do you have any sort of hot tips? What can someone do just on their own looking at their own advertising budget in whatever platform you want to talk about? Patrick: Sure. Joe: Give away some tips or what can somebody do that's using … let's start with Google AdWords. What's the biggest mistake people make and how can they fix it? Patrick: Yeah I think that one of the biggest mistakes, I mean you can kind of take this across all platforms is trying to figure out the audience and the actual attribution and then finding the adjacent audience. So I'll give you an example, and our artificial intelligence does this. The idea is that you need to expand your audience. So you find an audience that gives you a high lifetime value and you recognize that in keywords or interest in Google AdWords. For example, you might be targeting 18 to 54 year olds in AdWords. You need to break each one of those segments up and realize that 18 to 24 year olds aren't interested in the same thing as a 45 and through 54 right? So if you're trying … if you're targeting people who are interested in the NFL, the 18 year olds that also have that same interest are interested in the UFC. And so you have to find those adjacent audiences to lower your cost of acquisition. Does that make sense? Joe: Yeah. Patrick: You expand the reach of the audience size and that's something that our technology does and our big people are doing that. Joe: Okay so it's finding out their like audiences. I always hear something on the Facebook algorithm in the paid advertising part of that similar audience or look alike audience, is that what we're talking about? Patrick: Kind of, on Facebook it's different. So AdWords is a multi-variant test platform. You're basically setting up … hopefully, you're setting up somewhere between 10 and 150 different campaigns. We're going to set up about 1,000 to 6,000. Joe: I think I had five or six and I had multiple things underneath there. So you're talking about 1,000 to 6,000 campaigns? Patrick: What was what was your target audience age range? Joe: From the women 25, 54 but I honestly can't recall if I even know. No, not much. I don't want to talk about that because I lost a whole lot of money the more we talk about it. Patrick: Oh my gosh. Joe: Wasted money. But you're doing a thousand campaigns inside of Google Ad Words? Patrick: You can [inaudible 00:17:10.1]. That's the only way, get out to get that. No, no, no, that's my product. That's the only way to get down to how am I going to expand this audience? What does this audience …. what is this audience also interested in? So it … what you basically said, what you told the platform was I want women 18 to 54 is that what you said, 18 to 54? Joe: 25, 54 but- Patrick: 25 and 54 and you basically said they all have the same interest and they don't. Joe: No they don't. Patrick: And they're not even on the same device. So you've got to break it out by device; tablet, mobile, desktop. And you've got to break it out by each age group. You've got to break it out by each interest. And you got to break it out by each keyword. Because if you don't get that data in there you're science is [inaudible 00:28:04.6] value is. Joe: Okay so someone doing this on their own in an Excel spreadsheet doing … think they're doing fairly well odds are that they could be doing a whole lot better. Patrick: Basically. Joe: Right. Another … okay so the tip there was I keep, I want to call it look alike audiences but it's not. Patrick: Just call it multi-variant testing. In AdWords, you've got to multi-variant test, and you've got to get as granular as possible to get the learnings out of that, out of that platform. Joe: Multi-variant testing, okay. Patrick: Yes. Joe: Second so the tip, the next thing you'll sit down and tell somebody to look at? Patrick: So on Facebook, it's completely different. You can't, you have to bucket everyone together and then as soon as Facebook finds you that acquisition and that's you know obviously Facebook and Instagram then it starts to learn okay now I know who you're looking for and it starts to find all the people that look alike. That's where the look alike part comes in. Facebook's AdWord is working in the background to figure that out. When we first set out it might be looking at your return and saying oh my gosh I'm doing way better on AdWords. You have to stick with it. And one of the things that we see as well is that you have a longer sign up or click to buy solution in your platform. What you'll see is people will start that buy on Facebook and they'll get to your form and realize that they don't have enough time for this and they need to go sign up on the desktop. And they'll go to Google search, look up your brand and you have to be able to do that. And that's where that DCM code comes in to play; from double click. Joe: Okay. Patrick: It actually digi up and see the assist on Facebook to AdWords, give the credit to Facebook that was the person who … that's where they saw the ad. They'll just go in to the desktop to finish filling it out Joe: Okay. Patrick: That makes sense? Joe: I did evaluation maybe three weeks ago for someone that back in the first quarter they reduced tremendous volume in their business by Facebook advertising. And then the algorithm update hit in I think April, you know by May. And they went from let's say a half a million a month in revenue to 40,000 a month in revenue. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Incredibly painful. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: They then jumped to Google AdWords and made adjustments on Facebook. But that type of algorithm update how do you and how does your agency … [inaudible 00:30:34.3] agency, how does your service address that, fix that, take care of that, and make sure that your clients are not going to be suffering from that major algorithm update that Facebook seems to be doing on a regular basis? Patrick: Yeah, it's a good point Joe I mean we're all sort of at the mercy of the changes that happen. That update may have been Facebook's response to Cambridge Analytics which was kind of like on the back end of that GDPR stuff I was talking about. So they have made changes and all these platforms change all the time. What we had is like when I was talking about Amazon with the seat, we're in Facebook's Ad Manager; we have a Facebook rep so we … those changes come to us before. Hey look here's how you're going to have to set these campaigns up in the future to be successful. Be prepared for this, this is going to be our algorithmic change and they'll never tell you what's in the science behind it. But you bring up a valid point about Facebook; it is a very content rich platform. You have to be testing instead of multi variant testing, different light items of campaigns. What you're really doing there is your multi-variant testing creative. So you have to look at an audience and you have to understand is the audience tired of my ad? They're seeing the same ad over and over again. Are they tired of that ad or is the audience exhausted with my product? They don't want it anymore and I have to go somewhere else. But typically what we're doing in Facebook is a lot of creatives popping. So well create a slot, 15 different pieces of creative image a week period [inaudible 00:32:19.0]. Joe: So with AdWords the campaigns you could have a thousand plus potentially. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Maybe at least 6,000 with Facebook it's more about the creative and fifteen different creatives over a two week period. Patrick: Yeah that's right. Joe: And then you'll continue to test that and swap it out to just continually monitoring the click rate and conversion rate. Patrick: That's right. Joe: What about video on Facebook is that something you're doing and recommend? Patrick: Yeah you know [inaudible 00:32:46.1] there are working really well, there's video component in there. But yeah we're seeing great conversion off of short video. And you know you … on that creative side you have to have high quality images and the videos don't have to be very long; two, three … three to six seconds perfectly in there. Joe: I think the quality I think the audience gets because that's the number one thing in terms of their own website and the Amazon seller accounts is top quality photos that should be the first thing. All right so we talked about Google AdWords, we talked about Facebook, any other thoughts in terms of you sitting down with somebody having a drink and what they should look at if they're running an e-commerce paid advertising campaign? Patrick: Yeah I mean actually on the paid advertising side I … you just have to keep exploring the platform's interest, is that really good … if you know how to use that platform it's becoming a very good conversion platform. And it's interesting when you start to see these new platforms come out typically because they're new there's not a lot of complex decision there so if you can … it's kind of a land grab. It's kind of like what Facebook did to Google. Facebook was a new platform, they finally got their Ads Manager to work properly and Power Editor is what they call it. And people have done really really well. Same thing is happening with Pinterest now. They've got their advertising technology and algorithm is starting to do really well in the backend of collecting data and saying oh this person who bought this is also buying this and they look alike kind of thing. Pinterest is becoming a CPA platform. Joe: Okay, so AdWords, Facebook, Pinterest … and when we say AdWords when we say that we are talking about Google content searches plus I assume were talking about YouTube looped in there as well. Patrick: Yeah YouTube is very tough in terms of direct conversing. What you have to do on YouTube is you use YouTube as a mid-funnel driver to your branded keyboard search. So I know that that sounds challenging but your creating an awareness campaign but you're looking at how that's driving cheap CPA in AdWords because it's your brand and that costs less than say some generic term that like clubs or something like that; whatever you're selling. Joe: Okay. So when you work with a client do you work on … obviously, you've got a budget that you work on, goal setting with either cost per lead or cost per acquisition things of that nature. People … my point is that I know that when I was in the audience is just listening thinking about hiring someone that I was worried that they're going to blow up my budget on it. Patrick: Oh yeah. Joe: Do you work with them on all those goals as well? Patrick: Oh absolutely and everybody is logged in. We're typically buying on your account so nothing's getting taken out of there. And again like everything starts with that audit. But back to your point about I think what entrepreneurs do is they need that margin or store ad to be really high to afford the inventory. And what we go about with Dave and some of the other entrepreneurs here is we want to help you with that. So we'll [inaudible 00:36:19.8] with you so that you can take a little bit more risk on the advertising side. And we talked about this a little bit before the show and it's what I talked to Jason about- Joe: Yeah let me just jump in and get to the point so people understand. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Part of the biggest problem that a bootstrapped physical products company has is amazing growth and lack of capital to buy more inventory; they're growing at 100% month over month, year over year. And they're taking all of that working capital and putting it right back in inventory and just trying to keep up. And what I do or anybody at Quiet Light does evaluation for that business we talk about planning. One of the simplest things to be more profitable is just don't run out of inventory. But it's kind of hard because they run out of money and can't keep up with that growth. So what you're talking about is as an agency, as a firm, as a partner- Patrick: As a partner. Joe: You're willing to work with them and lend them money to buy that inventory. Patrick: That's right. When we went from $80 to $16 CPL, we broke our partner's logistics. That … I can sum up what you're talking about in just amazing growth; we have the same problem. So you don't have enough capital, no bank is going to give you a decent loan, your business is too young in the first three years and so we recognize that. We're able to look at your advertising and we'll tell you what we can do on the execution side. But we have to make sure that you have the logistics down in the inventory to go take those risks. And we want to take those risks with you. So overall it's to grow your business as big as you possibly can. So that's the goal. That's how we make money. Joe: It's [inaudible 00:38:11.9] it's not all that different from Quiet Light, we're here to help. We have that … sometimes that stigma of oh you're a broker and that was the hardest thing for me going from entrepreneur owning my own business to entrepreneur that's a broker advisor is that those entrepreneurs they say you know I never want to sell my business. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want you to talk me into something. But we are here to help and help you grow your business and build that relationship so that when you plan to sell you'll exit and you'll exit well. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And what you're doing is the same thing is you're helping more than anything else. Of course, you're a business trying to make a living too and obviously doing it very well. But you're going to do the audit for free, you're going to do the test for free. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: And then you're going to dramatically reduce that cost for acquisition or cost for lead whatever the case might be in what the parameters are that you set with the client. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And they're going to have a problem which is dramatic growth and they're not going to be able to keep up with the inventory. They probably already can't keep up with the inventory purchasing and you're going to be there to help fund the inventory purchases and keep this growing which allows you to spend more money on their behalf and a great cost really a great cost for acquisition and make more money for yourself along the way as well. Patrick: Yeah. When we started our company we did it on American Express and Google AdWords buy in YouTube. It [inaudible 00:39:37.5] credit card every $700, so you know I feel your pain that you were feeling and we get it and it's real. Growth is tough to manage; very tough to manage. So for me, I like to consider myself sort of a scaling expert whether that embodies locations and sales. I'm good at that. I mean there are people here that will just do that … building a brand from scratch and selling it for hundreds of millions of dollars. Joe: That's amazing that you get that kind of talent that is choosing to work with you. It's kind of a great working environment for these folks. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Ok look I never have to work again for the rest of my life but you're making it fun and we're changing people's lives so let's go ahead. Patrick: Yeah and think about Joe, I meant it's exciting. I mean you're in this business because you get to meet really interesting other entrepreneurs. And they all bring something interesting to the table. When they take a nap on we've all been in that battle together and this is a new sort of idea like why are you doing this so- Joe: It's great. Patrick: Yeah it's got to be a part where we're really excited about it and happy to bring it to the market. Joe: Yeah listen, I want to end it here simply because people should be reaching out to you. It's a very least they're going to learn something in the review process. They're going to learn at the very least what they're screwing up on, what they're doing wrong, and what they can do. Choose to do it themselves or- Patrick: Anything works, that's right. Joe: Have you test it and prove that you can do it better than they can. And then they can free themselves up for other things as well like additional product development and clean documentation on their financials. So I say that in every podcast episode hire a good [inaudible 00:41:23.0]. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And one priest, they've heard me preach before. Patrick listen thanks for being on the show. Thanks for taking time out of your day I know you're very busy. We'll go ahead and get this produced get it out to folks and share it with you as well so you can share it with your team. Patrick: Joe thanks for having me. Joe: It's great man, thank you. We'll talk to you soon. Patrick: All right man, take care. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast for more resources from this episode head over to quietlightbrokerage.com. If you're enjoying the show please leave a rating and review on iTunes. This helps share the messages from the show with more business owners like you.   Links: Free review and test: hello@strikesocial.com Inc. 500 Ranking Strike Social

Kat: Okay. Oh. How do I do this? Wait for it. Patrick: Got to do it. Kat: Are you going [crosstalk 00:00:42] through the snow? Patrick: Yeah I'm going through the snow. I got it at like 60 degrees in here right now. It's 60 degrees in my house, I have no idea why. Kat: Is that cold? Patrick: To me it is, yes. Kat: Does that mean cold, I don't understand your language. Patrick: To me it is very cold. To me its subzero temperature, I'm absolutely freezing right now. I'm about to die of a cold or flu. Kat: Your dying? Patrick: Yup. I have not gone [crosstalk 00:01:11] Kat: It's a sad state. I'm going to ... Patrick: Hold on let me [crosstalk 00:01:18] Kat: I'm finding out what temperature that is. I'm Googling it so everybody understands what's happening. Patrick: Oh yeah, it doesn't translate. Doesn't translate in your language. Kat: Oh, it's 15 degrees. Hang on I've got to shut the door, there's window men right outside my door and it's super noisy. One second. Patrick: 15 degrees. Holy shit, what the fuck happened to my computer. So what's up everybody, hello, hello, welcome everybody. I'll go ahead and say that. Hello? Kat: What's up? Patrick: [inaudible 00:01:47] everybody's already said something. I don't know, my computer just took a shit. I've no idea. So did you say 15 degrees, your words? This is retarded. Hold on. I can't hear you. Kat: [inaudible 00:02:04] must be dying. Patrick: I can't, what the [crosstalk 00:02:06] Kat: Am I back? Am I back? Patrick: Yeah you're back. Oh, I forgot we're on my internet connection. Kat: Yeah I had ... No, it's because I put my earplugs in because my house cleaner is upstairs vacuuming. Patrick: Oh well how fancy, how fancy. Kat: I'm very fancy, you know that. Patrick: Very fancy with your extravagance earbuds. Kat: So I said that everybody should send you a love heart shower because you're surviving in only 15.555 degree Celsius right now, for the Australians. Now, if people are from Melbourne though, which is my hometown, they're going to be like, "Harden the fuck up, that's warm," but here where I live that's horrible. Horrible. Nobody should have to endure those sort of ... Patrick: Yeah, these are very horrible circumstances. [crosstalk 00:02:58] Kat: Nobody should have to endure those sort of subzero temperatures. Patrick: Nobody should be asked to endure these subzero temperatures, I'll tell you that. All right. Kat: All right. I might need some assistance. Can you help me out? Patrick: What do you got? Kat: Should I wear my hair like this? Should I wear my hair like that or behind? Or on one side? What's the best livestream hair? Patrick: I kind of like it behind. Kat: Out? Patrick: That looks good. Kat: Behind, all right. There you go everybody. Patrick: There you go. That looks good. Kat: We're going to talk about [crosstalk 00:03:37] Patrick: That's the queen Kat look. Kat: [crosstalk 00:03:39] Cleopatra. Patrick: She says, Angela said, [inaudible 00:03:43] I'm in Texas right now. Texas by way of Bali, very, very soon. In the next month, no, no, this month. This month, I'm going next week, next week. Kat: This week maybe. Maybe even tomorrow. Patrick: No I have to wait till the weekend. Kat: Oh well. Patrick: Have to wait till the weekend because [crosstalk 00:04:04] I have to move my stuff. Kat: Time and space is just, time is just an illusion anyway. The weekend could mean tomorrow. Could mean today. Could all be one day. That's extended into itself. Patrick: Time is an illusion [crosstalk 00:04:18] Kat: I think I'm going to take these out again now. I'm going to take these out again now because they're annoying me. Patrick: What is [inaudible 00:04:25] giving you a delay? I'm going to drop this in my [crosstalk 00:04:30] Kat: No, I just prefer no earbuds and the vacuuming stopped. But check it out, I'm sorry that I keep doing this to you Patrick, but I'm going to do it anyway. Are you ready? Patrick: I'm ready. Kat: I'm just eating my bacon and eggs with my Vegemite while in waiting for us to go live. Patrick: Oh my God. Oh my god. Kat: I was halfway through eating. Patrick: How are you destroying this fucking meal with that shit? That's an all American meal, and you're just going to destroy it with that. Destroy it, it's completely just- Kat: Look, pay attention. You want to put the Vegemite straight onto your eggs. Straight on. Patrick: What's that green thing? I don't want to put that Vegemite anywhere near my eggs. I don't want it anywhere near any of my food. Kat: That's avocado. Patrick: Oh that's an avocado? Kat: That's avocado. Patrick: I thought you all had green eggs and ham over there or something because I don't even know. Kat: You want to eat that with, look, pay attention. Patrick: I have no idea what you all have over there. Kat: You want to put a little bit of Vegemite on the avocado, eat it like that. I don't know why I get so much enjoyment from doing this to you. Patrick: [crosstalk 00:05:29] it's just crazy how different people's taste buds are. Kat: It's so good. Patrick: What you just did- Kat: It's just because- Patrick: What you just did was the equivalent of somebody spraying a cat turd on a fucking piece of toast and eating it to me, that's just what I just saw you do. Kat: I'd love to have some toast. [crosstalk 00:05:52] I'd love to have toast with avocado. You also- Patrick: What's up [crosstalk 00:05:57] on here. Feel like we're getting delayed [crosstalk 00:06:00] again, we're delayed. Kat: We're not delayed. The internet just doesn't know how to keep up with us, but really you should also always dip your bacon straight into the Vegemite. Pay attention. Look. Patrick: I'm not paying attention to that, it's fucking heresy. Kat: Because salt with bacon. The saltiness, it's like extra salt in it. It's great. Patrick: That's the most disgusting thing. Kat: So yesterday- Patrick: You're so beautiful and then you do such disgusting things to yourself. It's just weird. It's like [crosstalk 00:06:37] weird, it's like- Kat: It's part of my mystique. Patrick: Why did this very creative hot chick just do the nastiest thing. It's like watching a shizer video. Know what shizer is, [crosstalk 00:06:44] the German [crosstalk 00:06:45] Kat: I'm sorry, but thanks. No. No. But I appreciate the compliment. Patrick: No. Have no idea [crosstalk 00:06:51] Kat: But I can't help it, it's part of my mystique. Patrick: That's not mystique, that's not. Kat: But it's actually ... Do I need to know? Patrick: What'd you say? We've got a delay, we've got a delay. Kat: Do I need to know? No I was waiting for you, do I need to know or understand? Patrick: Well you're from Germany, so you should know. It's basically German scat porn basically. You know what scat porn is? Have you ever heard of it? Kat: I don't watch any German porn. Currently I don't watch German porn. I watch regular, all American or Australian porn. Patrick: Well I'm saying that you can know of it, you can know of it. There's different types you know, when you're scrolling through you're going to see some different categories. There's grandma, there's all sorts [crosstalk 00:07:38] of different types. Then there's German shizer, there's scat porn, you just happen to be scrolling by it, see it, sometimes. Kat: So basically what's happened here is we came on to do a recoded conversation about art and resistance and flow and we're talking about German porn? Patrick: Yes. Particularly the scat variety. You invited me on here. Kat: I just like to keep- Patrick: You fucking invited me on here. Kat: I think you said we need to record our conversation. You said I believe ... Thank you. You said I believe it's time to record our conversation again or something like that I believe it is. You messaged me yesterday and then you must have rudely just gone to bed straight after messaging me because I needed help, I was stuck in the resistance, I wrote back to you with a happy faced emoji. Then you must have gone to sleep so I just had to live in the resistance all by myself with nobody to kick my ass. Patrick: Yeah, I saw that, I was like man [crosstalk 00:08:38] Kat: And that's how I ended up with [crosstalk 00:08:39] Patrick: That was a weird thing to wake up to, I was like wow, you were in the, you, Kat of all people in the resistance? Now that's the part usually reserved for me. I'm the one that likes to play in the resistance. Kat: I know, it's mind blowing. The truth is maybe I just don't talk about it enough. It's like quicksand, it was dragging me into it. It was probably a Vegemite deficiency in my bloodstream. There was definitely a flow deficiency in my bloodstream. Patrick: It's all coming to a head you know. It's finally attacking your nervous system. Kat: The Vegemite? Or the flow? Patrick: Yes. Kat: So then okay, so this morning I went to Muay Thai and I was doing my rounds in the ring and I couldn't breathe properly. It's fucking annoying because I'm very fit, but my fitness just wasn't there. He's like, "What's going on?" And I said to him, my trainer, "I think I'm just not connected to my body properly yet." Like I haven't connected into my body yet because my mind's thinking about other stuff and we had already done maybe three or four rounds. I was going hard, but I was just like kind of breathing like that, but I wasn't feeling anxious about anything. So then it was just fucking annoying, but as soon as I, like we got to maybe 30 or 40 minutes into the session even, and then you feel that switch click and you connect to flow and you're just like holy shit, it's on and you're in that dance and that super flow. Kat: It's exactly like business. I was saying to my trainer this morning it's like, you're like, ugh, even I get this, I get it every fucking day. Like people maybe think I'm motivated because I do so much content. Well I'm driven by, I hate the fucking feeling of when I don't do my content. I just feel like shit if I don't do my art, but that doesn't mean that when I sit my ass in the chair that it's flowing. It's often exactly the same as at the start of that workout where the first 10 or 20 or 30 or even 40 minutes, you just feel like you're wading through quicksand. You don't feel connected properly and you're not breathing deeply and then you're thinking, this shit, what am I even writing. Even yesterday after I messaged you then I was like fuck you, apparently you're not going to message me back and save me, so I'm going to have to write something myself and figure it out. [crosstalk 00:11:07] Patrick: [inaudible 00:11:10] all the time. Kat: And I write something, I write a blog anyway, but it was so shit. I posted it anyhow on Facebook, it was just the lamest thing I've ever posted in the history of time. It's still there, everyone can see it from yesterday. Even my team are like, "What is this, is this a blog? Are we supposed to put this on the Instagram story? What is this actually, there's no photo, it's not long enough." No, they weren't really ... But my point is you just got to do that damned thing anyway. You don't wait for flow, you get into flow. Sometimes you've got to get in and it's like a tumultuous, whitewater river and you just got to get pounded under the water again and again and knocked back down. Then at some point it's like boom, I'm in the flow zone. Everyone just wants to be in the flow zone, but you don't get there without being willing to go through the quicksand a bit. Patrick: No, it's funny you mention this now and I glad we're on here talking about this because I actually had exactly what you're talking about happened today, but fortunately ... So, did you ever get back into, did you ever reach flow or did you just spend the whole day just not, you didn't get there? Or did you finally get there? Kat: Yesterday, you know what, I wrote the damn post anyway. I published a post, I put a sales call to action on the end because I fucking show up for my art, that's my commitment. I'm very consistent. I'm probably the most consistent person on the internet with content, I believe. And I'm personally doing all my content myself as well, it's not like you know some people put a tonne of content out there, but how much content are they actually doing. Patrick: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kat: I think I'm like the most consistent person out there. So I posted the damn post anyway, I had to cut it short because I was meeting somebody and I knew that he was going to be there any minute. I was like all right, I didn't even have the time to get into my flowzone, I had like 12 minutes. I'm like fuck, I'll write something. I still wrote a damn blog, I still put a sales call to action on the end. I was like, this is bullshit, but, I don't know how many likes or comments are on it, but the people who commented and liked it, the people who commented were like, "This is exactly what I needed." And so it's about getting out of your own way, but then after that I went on a walk for like two hours. Had a good conversation and then came home and I still wasn't quite in that flowzone and I thought I could livestream last night and snap myself into it. But I didn't, resistance got me by the ass. I sat around for a bit, fucked around, pretending to do things on the computer and then I just went to bed. Kat: But, this morning, I don't know if you read my blog this morning. It was so good, it might be one the best posts I've written this year. It's called, "You're not a marketer you're an artist. A tortured one or not, and you'd better start fucking acting like it," or something like that. When I wrote that [crosstalk 00:13:55] blog ... Huh? Patrick: I saw it, I usually read your stuff at night on my time, nighttime you know. At the end of my day I'll read it. So you kind of catch me whenever I haven't read it yet. Kat: You're going to like that one. I'm so happy with that. You know when you write something or you do a livestream and you're just like oh, yeah, I fucking nailed it. Or, I didn't even know what I wrote, but I got what I want from it. I got that release and that connection to soul and then I went straight to training to Muay Thai then I was disconnected for 35 minutes. Then I got in the zone and holy shit, the last 15 or 20 minutes of my workout this morning, I have not brutalised myself like that in a while. It was so good, like I was nearly collapsing onto the floor. It's like that voice in your head that's like oh, are you going to die, are you going to die, you think you're going to fall down and die? You can't keep going? Are you dead yet? No, then keep fucking going bitch. I was just smack talking myself and I was so on the edge of being like I need timeout, I need to stop early. Kat: I just kept going and I kept thinking of, like I always remember Arnold Schwarzenegger saying that your body can go so much further than your mind. Like when you think that your body is done, whether it's in training, but also with the business. Your writing, your art, it's such a load of bullshit. I love nothing better than kicking my own ass and being like oh, you think you're hurting, you think this hurts? Keep fucking going. It's the most empowering feeling in the world. I literally collapsed onto the floor in the ring at the end of the session. Within a second though I had the biggest smile on my face already even though I was in agony. Kat: It's just, I don't know, I don't know how many people relate to that, but I love the pain, the purposeful pain. Otherwise, you just feel like you're not alive. So that resistance got me yesterday, but then today I eliminated it. Patrick: Well I know we were talking, the night before I believe, we were talking about how to say enjoy resistance. We were also talking about some of the things that were going on with your spot and where you were living at and things like that. We were talking about being where you were at and that you might have to create new challenges for yourself. You think this is maybe a product of that? Maybe your mind switched over to that, maybe you wanted some more resistance and you brought that to yourself? Kat: Maybe, that's a good point. Yeah, we had a phone call the other night that went for nearly three hours. At the end we were like fuck, we forgot to record our phone call again, so that we can sell it to everybody. It was so good. So now we- Patrick: It was good. Kat: No we're doing this for everyone. You can send [crosstalk 00:16:38] us a love heart [inaudible 00:16:40] huh? Patrick: Some love hearts to what? Kat: To thank us for being here and speaking. Patrick: Oh yeah, for sure. Check this out though, so we talked about that right and then so now that was happening, this resistance was happening. Now I've been like, the resistance is easing up on me. I've been going through fucking resistance because I'm a glutton for punishment. I don't know what do they call it, sadistic? No, it was masochist, what's the one where you like to get kicked in the balls? Kat: Isn't one of them like means you like to hurt other people and one means you like to hurt yourself? Masochist is you like self punishment I think. Patrick: Yeah, I think that's the one. Kat: And sadist is you like to hurt other people. Patrick: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, one of those two, the one where you get kicked in the balls. Obviously that's what I'm going through right now, I like to kick myself in the balls here. I've been going through that resistance, what we talked about on the phone. Maybe I want to, obviously yes, of course, why the fuck, how could it be any other way? How could it be any other way? Anything that you're going through, any resistance that you have in your life is because you want it to be there. Plain and simple. There's no other way around it, if you take responsibility for everything in your life as you should, as you should. If you believe in manifestation, if you believe it's all in your control. If you fucking believe in manifestation, [inaudible 00:18:03] you can alter your body by eating donuts or ramen noodle soups and still lose weight. If you believe that you have that [crosstalk 00:18:12] kind of control- Kat: Who said anything about donuts? Patrick: If you believe that you have that kind of control over the universe, then you better damn fucking well believe that you're making this shit up. That you're making up the resistance, you're creating the resistance. You're creating the despair, the feeling, the thoughts or the anguish. All that shit you want to, you fucking masochist you. You want the kick in the balls for some reason. Patrick: Okay, well I'm tired of the kick in the balls I guess. I must be done with it because today, so and then we're talking about now we're talking about my day. What's up Johnny? What's up Pistol Pete. Then we're talking about, now it's kind of easing up on me right. I woke up this morning and I saw your message, I'm like damn, I left her in the cooker last night. She's just, it's like I can't believe I saw this message of resistance here. I'm like, I was blown away by it you know, but I knew you were asleep, so obviously went about my day. Patrick: I started out my day just like you're talking about. I couldn't get into where I was trying to go. I was getting wrapped up and started right out the gate getting into shit that's not my art. Started getting into stuff pertaining to my other business, which I had put a cutoff date. We had just got done talking about that, saying fuck everything until noon or whatever, you know, until we get going. Right off the bat I start getting things happening though that were saying to me that some resistance was being overcome in the other business. So I was like huh, so I took the bait you know. I took the bait. Patrick: Not only that, last night I had found a blog post that I had written and I had never posted it. I got scared about it and I didn't post it. I was acting like a little bitch and I left it there. And so I discovered it and I was like fuck, I had already wrote a blog post that night. So, I had two blog posts and so I was happy about that, I'm like okay, I've got two. I'm going to drop those tomorrow. So I'm feeling good about that. I went to sleep and I woke up and immediately some things started happening at the other business, some resistance was overcoming the other business. I'm like fuck, okay, okay we're making some headway here so this is good. I jump right in this, it's like 8:00 in the morning, I jump right into that and start going to mess with my other business. Patrick: I get caught up with all that and next thing you know 12:00 comes around. I'm slugging, but I had been throughout the day doing tiny things because I'd been, I'm going to post content all day. Today, I'm just going to have a day where I post all content. You know on my Instagram, I'm going to post content throughout the day on my Facebook, I'm going to post whatever. I had just been starting to feel it again. Started to post things and they were getting a lot of engagement on them you know, just things that I would think, I'd post it and just small things you know, not real boring blog posts. Patrick: Then I drop my blog post on there, sprinkle that because I had that ace up my sleeve, so I drop the blog post, bam. I drop the other blog post, bam. Then it just started to come together, right. Then we rolled right into, right about 12:00 noon or so I took a little nap and then 1:00 PM and then the resistance just started to go down. All just starts to crumble right? Kat: Yeah. Patrick: Everything starts going right. I just start banging out all sorts of stuff. Me and Travis ended up doing, we just got done off of a livestream, which generated a lot of new people into our circle and to his audience. I'm jumping on here with you and now this is going, this is a great one right, so just like all the ones that we do. And so, it just started rolling, that's been my day. It just started rolling, and it started out just like you talked about though. It's very sluggish, but it took me till about 1:00 PM till it just started to roll really good, but I stuck with it. I stuck with it, I just kept on thinking I've posted, but it was like bite sized pieces of content that I kept dropping that led up to it. Kat: Yup. Exactly. Exactly and we talked about this when we were on the phone the other night that was like until 2:00 AM my time, that massive phone call. I said the same thing about when you're working out and it's like the first 10 or 20 minutes or however long, you just feel like fuck this shit. I don't really want to be here, I'm not feeling it. That was me this morning in the ring, I was like oh, fuck. Okay, yeah, I'm here, I'm doing what I need to be doing, but my mind was like why am I here. I'm not really vibing with this and I wish I didn't come today or whatever. You just fucking learn over the years, you figure it out finally when time is passing you by in your life and then you still didn't do the damn shit that you said you were going to do. At some point you just figure the shit out where you're like, oh fuck. Kat: I can remember, probably five years ago I can remember feeling like I think I was waiting, I thought there would be a point in my life where I would evolve to being a person whose always motivated and always ready, always has the inspired ideas and wants to do the damn thing. I remember one day it just kind of smacked me in the face like a wake-up call where I was like, oh shit, I just realised that for the rest of my life I will still battle resistance because it's part of the human condition. Particularly as an artist, resistance is inherent to being an artist, that's why I wrote this morning about the tortured soul. Probably your blog influenced my post this morning a little bit because you know, like I told you, when I got up in the morning before I journal I always read something. There's only like five people whose shit I'll read and I checked if you posted something new. I checked, you had posted something new so I read your blog and it was full-on. For me I found that full-on to read to hear the voices inside of your head. I was like holy shit that was so raw, it was like everybody should go read that blog. It's on your personal profile right? Patrick: Appreciate it. Kat: Go read it. But it was kind of painful to read, I found it kind of painful to read. Patrick: That's so funny you said that, [crosstalk 00:24:31] somebody messaged me, two people messaged me and they said the exact fucking same thing. They said, "I can't believe that shit. I did not know you wrote like that," and they said that it was painful. I said, "Well, what's painful about it?" It was like, "Well, it's painful to read." Two women you know, so I was wondering why is it painful for you to read it, you know what I mean? That's what I was wondering because I really was thinking about connecting with guys for it you know, more along the lines with the guys. Kat: Well, for me personally I found it painful to read because I care about you. I was like, that's like hearing somebody that you care about saying that shit about themselves, it's like fuck, it just felt painful for me for that reason. I don't know about what other people's reasons are, but also because I could relate to it. At first, I was thinking this so fucking full-on I can't believe you say that shit inside of your head, I found it shocking. Kat: Then I was like wait, why do I find it shocking, it's only shocking because you're writing it down because I've said all that same sort of shit to myself many times over as well. In my way, about my own stuff and if people heard the voices inside my head I'm sure they'd be shocked. Like you were taken aback even by me just simply saying that I'm in resistance, right? Now think about the shit that you put in that blog, it was extreme. Well I think that's why at first I was like, this is so full-on, like I felt shocked or upset about it just relevant to you personally, not in a general sense. Then I was like wait, no, it's just because this is a very raw, extreme thing for somebody to write down. I definitely have said so much to inside of my own head. Kat: Then I loved the way you finished the post like where basically you choose each day, every day you have those voices in your head and then you have the voice that's saying that you can and that you will. Then that is now what you do, you do your damn journaling, you do your content, you're showing up for your business and for your art. That's exactly the same as me and that's what I've always done and that's what I've done to get to this point. Now, for sure I don't have as much of those voices as I used to, it is less because I guess I've proven myself, to myself to whatever degree. Kat: But it's still here and that's what I think so many people don't understand about me. I'm not, or about anyone, about you as well, you do your livestreams every day, I do my content every day. People then go, oh no well I couldn't be like Patrick or I couldn't be like Kat. They're motivated, they're good on camera or whatever it is, but then go and read what you wrote about how you feel about yourself some of the time. Or if somebody could hear inside of my head and the smack talk that goes on in there. It's about realising that yeah, as you keep going and as time passes it will get easier, and I think you said this in your post, it gets easier because you learn how to deal with it. I feel like I learned how to dance with resistance and I can see it for the bullshit that it is, whereas maybe earlier on in my life I tended to believe it more. Kat: Now even if I feel like I'm believing it a little bit, I'll be like, yeah, no, I know exactly what's going on here. I do know what the answer is because fucking 20 years of training, of fitness training, has taught me how to get into flow and how to breakthrough resistance and discipline my ass and if you're not dead yet you keep going. Then many, many years in business as well has taught me the same thing, so I always know that the answer is too fucking bad, sit your ass down and do the damn thing. Sometimes it will feel fucking incredible, like today when I wrote my blog I was on the biggest high. I got in the car and I was just slamming my best tunes and then driving down to the fight gym. I was like, this is the best day ever, I'm so in the zone and that's an amazing feeling. Kat: I wish I could have that feeling every day, but yesterday felt like quicksand day. It doesn't matter right, like some days you'll feel superflow, some days you won't, so the fuck what. Either way you keep going, but for sure because I read your blog first and then normally I read a piece, I read if you write something or [inaudible 00:28:44] or whoever else I read, like such a small handful of people. Then I go into my journaling and then usually I write my blog after that. Today I read your blog first and then it really did impact me a lot, then I went straight into writing my blog, I didn't even do anything on [crosstalk 00:29:00] yet today, which is [crosstalk 00:29:01] Patrick: Damn, did my blog fuck your day up? Did my blog fuck your day up? Kat: No, no, it's the opposite because I had to write straight after that. Patrick: Oh, that's good. Kat: I went straight into writing that piece, but I was partly responding to you and partly I was thinking about one of my inner circle clients and partly it was for myself. Okay wait, we're going to need to start again because Brandon just jumped on and he asked that we start again. So where we started [crosstalk 00:29:26]- Patrick: I believe we started without him. Kat: Was with me dipping the bacon into the Vegemite. We got to start with the bacon and the Vegemite if we're starting from the top. Patrick: Can we please not? Kat: Anyway- Patrick: Brandon dammit, this was a bad day for that. Even though you're eating [crosstalk 00:29:39] Kat: Yeah, no, [crosstalk 00:29:40] read my blog later you'll see my blog was partly like it's speaking to you and like I was talking to you, but then I was talking to myself, but then I was talking to one of my clients and I told her that. It was just, I kind of love that because something you wrote definitely impacted what I created and what I created will be impacting other people. It's just amazing, it's the collective unconscious. Patrick: Well I saw your blog post and it jumped out at me. I was like this is something that I have to read, I just saw the title and I can't remember exactly what it said. I just saw it and I was like, I'm going to have to read that later on because I immediately saw it and I was feeling like, I don't know it was kind of geared towards me or something. The words weren't like that, but I just felt that, you know what I mean? Kat: Yeah, and I knew, usually I don't tell somebody if I write a blog that's skewed towards them because I know you're going to feel it anyway. It's not always, but often I'll be thinking of a particular person when I'm writing. It started off towards you and then it became about me. I thought it was going to be, I thought the post was going to be about honouring and respecting the artist, being like my soul recognises the artist in your soul, that sort of thing. Like the respect that I have for that and then it turned into kind of like a smack down post where I was kicking ass and I think that was at myself. Then at the end I was like fuck, this was not supposed to be about me. Then I brought it back around again and it just came out however it came out. Patrick: Oh see everything that I read, I'm like thinking, everything I read from you I'm thinking this is to me right. Kat: Everybody does, especially when I do, I don't know do you get this sometimes or have you had this happen, but if I do a post that's really quite brutal I'll tend to get like 20 people message me and they'll be like, "I know you were talking about me." And I'm like, "Well, if you think that I was, then maybe I was." Patrick: That could be the case, but I used to think that all the time when I worked for Ryan. I would always say and he'd said if you think, he said the same thing. If you think it is, it is. So, you're right, it's right, in the case if you think it is, it is, right. It's for you, it's for you if you are triggered by the wording. But I wrote mine like a while back and then I didn't feel anything about posting it. When I found it I was like, yes, I found it. I was like I'm going to post this now, no problem. I remember what you told me, it was like you should just not even think about it and just post it. So I posted it and it was apparently like real full-on, people said that. Patrick: I think that you do, like what I did was I was sitting there facing resistance big time whenever I started to write that. I was facing one of the biggest challenges of my life, which was making our first sale since we went out on our own, and it wasn't happening. It was taking like two weeks, I mean we were in this thing for like two weeks, damn near a month. I was sitting there, and I'm sure I had probably talked to you the night before, something like that. I was writing, I started to write the beginning of it you know, just to start thinking about what kind of shit you say to yourself whenever, or the kind of shit that people say to themselves whenever they're facing that. I really wanted to know, I started thinking about the things that I was thinking at the time. Patrick: Then I was like, well this is bullshit because this is right around when the shit broke and we made ourselves and everything started to work out for the better. That was when I was really, really getting into it and getting into manifesting and writing and controlling it you know. Right before it happened I just said, I'm just going to take all these things that are being said and I'm just going to go with it. As much as I can I'm just going to just get it all out there. Everything that I hear on the stream of thought, I'm going to just write it down as I go. Patrick: And so, I did, I just started fucking like turned on some music and I just started. Every one of the resistant thoughts that came through, I just typed as it was coming. I was like this is some fucking creative ass ways to talk shit to myself, you know, of this voice in my head that's talking this shit. Just so creative and the ways it says, the lies it says about you. I just put it down and it was just endless and relentless and didn't stop. I just had to stop it myself you know. It would have just kept going. Kat: It was relentless. That's how, like I was reading it, I was sitting down at the coffee shop. I was like how fucking long is this going for? It's just getting worse and worse, but that's why it was painful, I was like fuck me, I thought it would be finished now, it's still going? Then I was thinking, I hope there's going to be a reframe at the end of this and it's not just going to finish. And then there was. Patrick: The end. Your life is horrible. But I got it [crosstalk 00:35:01] it was like an experiment to just fucking just see if it would stop you know, but it wouldn't. I had to stop it myself which I guess you could say something about that. You have to stop that fucking voice yourself. It's not going to stop on its own. You have to stop it because [crosstalk 00:35:21] it's there if you want- Kat: You have to see it for what it is. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: You've got [crosstalk 00:35:25] to see it for what it is. Yeah, it's the devil. We were talking about this on the phone the other night. It's a seduction right? Patrick: Yes it is. Kat: Did you read Patrick's post Maria? It's like be prepared to be upset. If anyone reads that post, just be prepared to be upset, but it will be powerful for you. I think that we all think that we're the only ones who have those thoughts. It's natural to feel like if people knew the truth about me, or if people, like I should feel ashamed of myself or whatever. Everybody has those thoughts and then everyone looks at ... Yes, so Maria read your post, she's one of my inner circle clients, she said she was in tears. Exactly, I think for women in particular it's going to upset them. I thought it upset me because I had a personal interest, but I think it probably upsets everyone. Kat: It was very upsetting because it was so raw, but it's also incredibly healing. That's the sort of blog post that will heal people and probably healed you maybe when you wrote it or maybe by publishing it because it's so raw. That's the point I was trying to make in my blog this morning ... Where can you find this post, just click on, I'll get the link. I'm so helpful. I'll put the link here in the comments. Like I'm fucking up all my shit now. Kat: It's [crosstalk 00:36:45] like I wrote about this a little bit in my post that you've got to, to impact people, like yesterday I was talking to somebody new who I met about my business. I was explaining how I market, and he's an entrepreneurs as well with four amazing businesses, but a totally opposite sort of entrepreneur to me. We were talking about how the way that I show up on social media is the exact opposite of him. I put as much of myself out there as possible, and he's got as little of himself out there as possible. I was saying my system basically, my marketing is essentially I'll write these three thousand word blog posts every single day. The people who can get to the end of that and watch all my content are clearly, they're my soulmate clients or they wouldn't be sticking around that much. He was like- Patrick: I like that system. Kat: Holy shit, big long posts [inaudible 00:37:34] right, but he goes ... Oh yeah there's the blog. He goes, "Yeah, but that wouldn't work anymore would it," or something, or, "That's because you already built that up or something like that?" I'm was like, "No, no, it doesn't matter how crowded the internet is or how crowded Facebook is there is always going to be a space for the true artist to bear their soul." Like since the dawn of time, those of us who are storytellers, messengers and who actually reveal the raw shit inside of us, like what you wrote, was the painful, gritty, even ugly parts of the soul. It's almost like you don't want to look at it directly, it's like staring into the sun. It's too much, it's too intense, it feels too painful. Then at the same time it's magnetising and you can't look away. Kat: So somebody who can share a piece of their soul like that, like you do and like I do and like many people here do, really are very few people though in the total of the internet marketing world. That person doesn't fucking need to buy their followers like you livestreamed about yesterday and we talked about the other night. Or to worry about a fucking funnel or what's the best strategy or Facebook ads. Nothing wrong with doing your funnels and your whatever right, but it's the cherry on top. Anybody who can release a piece of their soul and is brave enough or willing to do that, will always have people that want to listen because it is a magnet. Kat: It's just mind blowing to me how so many amazing artists and messengers are out there wasting their lives thinking that the way to build a following or to make money is let me get my fucking funnel right or my strategy or my marketing for whatever bullshit. And let me have a pretty website on the internet and make sure that I have good head shots. Are you kidding me? Why don't you just strip yourself naked and show it to everybody? Your soul, right? That's all it takes. Patrick: Anybody [crosstalk 00:39:38] can have- Kat: Being willing to do that even in your own resistance. Patrick: And there's a lot of ego out there too. It's like everybody's got one of those, so how do you really separate yourself from everybody else. You know what I mean, everybody's got a marketing strategy, everybody's got a marketing plan. Everybody's got an ego, so how do you get that ... I get to talk to people today, I got to talk to somebody because of my blog post. One of my people, one of my people, as I call them true believers. He was going through some serious shit in his life, like some real, real horrifying shit that he told me about that I got to help him through, today. So to me to be able to help in such a way to change somebody's life, to save a life is, fuck, that's more important to me than the other shit. Patrick: The other shit's stupid and I wouldn't get that far with somebody if I didn't post something like I did, if I didn't say what I was really feeling I wouldn't get to say that. It wouldn't probably connect like that on that level with him. That to me is more rewarding than anything else I could be doing. Even if I have to take, for a while, you know it's going to be a while. I could go out here and make a marketing webinar and be very successful with it and make money off of it you know. I could do that. Kat: Successful. Patrick: Yeah, successful. Run traffic to it and do all ... I know how to do all that, I've done it. Or a book funnel or whatever you want to do. Whatever you want to do to make money. Give somebody an irresistible offer, tell them how to double or triple their income, whatever you want to do. That's fine, but understand that anybody can fucking do that. Anybody can do that. If you hold back, if you don't say what's on your mind, if you don't actually share a piece of yourself, then you're not really like an artist I don't think. You know? Then you're just giving people- Kat: You're not and you have to decide [crosstalk 00:41:46] if you want to be an artist first or a marketer first. Like, you're an amazing marketer, I know a lot about marketing as well. We can both do all that shit. I don't even think anybody can do it, it is still a skillset because plenty of people are trying to fucking do it and they're not doing anything, they're not getting anywhere with it. Kat: I did read a blog post one time by a mentor of mine from years back and she was like you got to choose, you're either an artist of an entrepreneur, who are you? I was like holy shit, she's right, I'm an artist first. I am an entrepreneur, I am a marketer, I where those hats and I've been an entrepreneur, like it's in my blood, I've been selling shit since I was three years old. But first and foremost I'm an artist. You've got to choose, you can't be in both camps. You can't be like, oh I'm an artist and I share from my soul and I do my soul purpose, but first let me build this pretty little funnel over here and then I'll be ready. It's bullshit. Kat: Nobody said you need that you needed the internet to get your message out there and to make money. Amazingly enough artist through the history of time have managed to have people fall in love with them without a Facebook page. I know it's mind blowing for everybody and you might need therapy [inaudible 00:42:57] and some sexual healing in order to come to terms with that, but you don't need any of that shit in order to get your message out there. What you do need is to be courageous enough to put the blinders on and just art, art, art, art, art because like we said, you have a true believer client as you call them, I call them my soulmate clients, who comes to you as a result of that post. That person is so connected to you now, there's instant trust, instant deep rapport, they become a longterm client who refer their friends and just be so in love with you and your message because they see themselves in you. Kat: Most people, you could do an automated webinar and get leads from that, like you said. You could become successful and I say successful like that because even if you were making great money doing that, which of course you could do and you know how to do. You would be, and we've talked about this many times, you would be miserable. You would be hating it, your soul would be dying because it wouldn't be doing your purpose work and you're essentially selling your soul to the wrong clients, the wrong people doing the shit that doesn't light you up. Kat: Whereas, when you go all in with your art yeah, like most people are going to be horrified at the idea of reading a daily two or three thousand word blog post or listening to a one hour livestream that you do. They're going to think that's crazy, who wants to listen to that. I've had people make fun of me so many times when I've had hater-ship online. Like, "Oh ha ha, who would read all that shit?" I'm like, "Well firstly I don't fucking care if anybody reads it because I'm writing it for me bitch, not for you. Secondly, clearly a few people are fricking reading it if you look at the business that I've created." Kat: So if somebody is going to read that or watch your webstream or read your post, then they come to you and talk to you, that person is a soulmate client for life. I'd rather 10 people like that than a 100,000 people that are fucking bored on Instagram or got off a webinar. Patrick: Well there going to fall off, those people are going to like, what people realise is how much of this bullshit that's out there that's the same. People don't show you their refunds, people don't show you their attrition rates. People are dropping off. They don't show you that shit. They don't show you that shit. All they'll show you is- Kat: Yeah, so true. So true and we talked about that the other night as well. Like my refund rate is like 0.000001%. I'll get like three refunds a year and two of them is because the person accidentally bought the same product twice. They're like shit, I didn't realise I already have it, can you refund me? Patrick: And I haven't had that one- Kat: That's not normal, what's the industry rate even? It's like- Patrick: It's crazy, it's like 30. Kat: 40 or 50% some of the time. Patrick: Yeah. Yeah, it's insane. Then people don't say that and then they don't say, they don't talk about you know, affiliates and things like that that they're doing. So numbers are fucking crazy you know what I mean? You can't even get into numbers there's so much bullshit out there. There's so much bullshit out there that you might as well just be truthful and honest and just put yourself out there. I get on here and I've got now these few people that come on, I mean anything that I do, they follow me around for whatever it is that I do. I did something with Travis today, which we did marketing and I dropped a link out there for our funnels and everything. I thought we're going to pull in these new prospects right and these clients for his side of things, you know his new audience and everybody who showed up was my people. They hopped on to see that we were talking marketing, they showed up, popped up. Kat: They watch you, or my people watch me instead of Netflix. My people say that all the time, they're like, "I can't believe what time it is and I'm still watching your content." That's all you want, but it's also like what we're saying here is your going to get a better result just following your art and making your marketing strategy should be your art. Then let's not forget also the selling of the soul side of it because even if it was true that you could make more money, which I do not believe, by following straight up internet marketing Stepford-preneurship you would be miserable, in sabotage, addicted to whatever shit that's not good instead of addicted to flow. And just not happy right? Kat: I did it that way, I built my business at first to where it was nearly at a million dollars a year because I did the fucking work and I did the marketing. I was right on the cusp of a million dollars a year in my business. This was in 2012, and I walked away. I shut the whole thing down, I walked away from all of it. I remember saying to my partner at the time, if this is the path to a million dollar business, I don't want it. I cannot do this anymore, I would rather go back to being a personal trainer. I said to him, "I'm going to give myself three months, give me three months. I'm going to prove that I can make money doing what I love, but fuck all that shit, I'm going all in doing what I want. If I don't do it in three months then I'll just go back to the gym and I'll be a trainer again because I know how to make a lot of money doing that." Kat: Well, I didn't do it in three months anyway, I ended up over $100,000 in debt and blew the whole thing up. Then eventually, eventually, I stayed though, I stuck to it and now look where I am because I've experienced what it's like to make good money by selling my soul. I mean, it's your life right, you want to be, this is like right now we're not really selling anything, but this is content. This is us filling ourselves up with our art and our craft. Even though we're not directly making an offer, how many people are becoming soulmate clients or true believer clients of each of us right now because of this content. Then we drop a link or we keep saying we're going to start recoding our personal phone calls and sell them. People are going to fucking buy that shit, like who wants to buy the recorded phone calls of when we talk to two or three hours- Patrick: I do. Kat: Because that shits gold, but sometimes we've got to keep it private. But, we'll figure it out. Patrick: Yeah, we got to keep some things private, a little bit, a little bit. Those are like extreme, super, super VIP shit. But Helen makes a good point, Helen's asking a good question here though, she says, "I get what you're saying," but she's surrounded by true artists putting themselves out there every day and never make any money, what would you say about that? Kat: Okay. Okay. Good, I'm so glad I asked this. Patrick: I like that one, yeah. Kat: I was ready to preach on this. I'm going to need a love heart shout-out first, send me the love hearts. Then I'll bring the [crosstalk 00:49:37] Kat show. Patrick: Can I do it to? [crosstalk 00:49:37] Kat: Can you do it too? Everybody shower me with the love heart. Oh there they come, thank you. Patrick: Shower. Kat: All right. I already answered these same questions to two or three clients earlier today when I was answering my client audios, so I'm prepared and I'm ready. Here's the thing right, money, money is just a decision and a choice right? Like yesterday I bought a new car, I'm also getting a new house and a few other things all at once. It is a big deal, I'm excited to get the car, I feel good about it. Yeah, there's some ego attached to it for sure because I feel like yeah, look at my badass car, but at the same time I don't need that in order to be happy or fulfilled right, I'm detached from it. When they didn't give me exactly what I wanted at the dealership I just left. I wasn't doing that as a strategy, I was like okay, I'm not attached, this is what I want, if you can't give it to me I'm leaving. I got in the car and drove away and of course, they called me eight minutes later and gave me what I wanted. Patrick: Sorry guys. Kat: Either way I [crosstalk 00:50:40] Patrick: I used to be one. Kat: But, yeah, you know how it works. I [inaudible 00:50:45] I'm leaving. And I literally was about to sign and then I just put the pen down, I'm like look I've got to go. I'm going to go see the house, I left. What I'm trying to say though is, I don't need the car, I'm not emotionally attached to the car in order to feel good enough, in order to feel worthy, in order to feel like I'm now complete and whole. The thing that fills you up and lights you up and gives you your sense of freedom and completeness and your happiness, your source of all things is being true to yourself and doing your art right? So then for the money, to me the car is the same sort of thing, whether it's a car, whether it's do I want to buy the fancy Voss water, whatever it is. It's just a decision, so I can choose the car or not choose the car, either way I'm whole and I'm complete, but am I going to choose the car, yeah it's fucking badass, it's a hot, sexy car. I'm going to choose the car because I like it and I can have it. Kat: Same as with money. Get out of the idea that there needs to be an emotional attachment around money, it's only money. Choose it or don't choose it, it's infinitely available. Like you can choose am I going to wear pants or a skirt today, it doesn't matter, why get emotionally attached to it, but it's always available. That's how I feel about money. One of the courses a I made in 2014 when I first figured this out for myself was called, "It's only money honey." I called the course, "It's only money honey," one of the best courses I've ever made, because it was like a slap in the face wake up call where I suddenly realised, fuck, I've been making it this really emotional thing. Like am I good enough for money, am I worthy for money. Imagine we did this right, like am I good enough for the Voss water, am I worthy of this, what are people going to think of me? Does this add to my value if I have this amazing water? Either just pick it up off the shelf or don't. It doesn't matter. Kat: And so that was like a breakthrough for me to go oh shit, money is just a decision, decide how much you want. Expect it the same way if you're in a restaurant and you put your order in, you know I'll have a steak and broccoli, you expect it, you assume it's going to turn up. You don't go into the kitchen and be like, am I good enough for this? Do you guys think I'm worthy of the steak, can I really have that? Is it being prepared and will I get it? You just order your fucking meal and then you sit down and you wait for it and you expect that it's going to show up. Then meanwhile you're in the now, being present with whoever you're with. Kat: Same with money, decide it. It's a decision. When you get out of the emotional attachment around money being a reflection of your worth or being something that's going to save you, then you'll realise that it's just something you decide. But you fret now, you think that money would make you more worthy or it's going to save you or it will fill you up or it will make you happy. Or you'll be, yeah, safer in some way or a better person in some way. Then you'll continue to keep it at arm's length because you're trying to validate yourself and you're trying to find your safety and security from something outside of you, which is not possible. Kat: The lesson is you need to decide ... Did I just get invited to go to a cruise? Somebody's just invited me to go on their birthday cruise and I don't even know this person. I'm just magnetic as fuck. Patrick: It's your most active follower it looks like. Kat: I don't even know who that is. Hi, [Taveda 00:54:01] I can't, I can't go. I've got something on, but thank you. Kat: So, yeah, it's about realising it's a decision. If artists are out there and they're broke, maybe they're buying into the broke artist story, but maybe, maybe, and probably, they're in some way basing their self-worth on their financial situation and/or thinking to themselves that if I just had that money, then I'd be safe. Then I'd be good enough, then I'd be a worthy or a valid person. It's the same as love. You'll never find love when you think oh that person is going to make me feel like then I'm good enough, then I'm worthy, then I'm attractive, then I'm whatever. Kat: You got to figure that shit out right, like otherwise you'll just continue to hold that deep connection at arm's bay. When you realise you've already got everything inside of you and of course you can choose the money because abundance is infinite. Or of course you can choose to receive love because it is available. Or of course you can choose to have the body you want or whatever and you don't need it, well like you can need it and not need it at the same time, we've talked about that. But either way, you already get your completeness inside of yourself. Kat: Does that make sense? Did I just ramble in 49 different directions at once? Patrick: Pretty much, but I'm feeling it, I'm catching it. So, you're saying then somebody who is a starving artist, they're buying into it, which that makes sense to me. There's a lot of things that people out here buy into because that's just what people say. You know, oh you're a starving artist. Oh, you're not going to make any money. That's what they say, but how much of this shit is rooted in fact, it's just something that somebody said. You know, there's a lot of shit like that that's out there, but you have to, you know, you can't cuss if you want to make money online. You know, there's a huge one right- Kat: Really? Fuck, that's rude. Patrick: Yeah, how rude. There's all these things that they say. You have to, what else do they say, you know, you already have to have made this much amount of money before you can make any money online. You can't help anybody unless you've hit this, unless you've achieved these goals. You know, you have to have a book. All sorts of crazy shit that's just not true, but people will buy into. There's so many limitations being sold to everybody out here and they're constantly buying into them. I see what you're saying about that, it makes sense because if they're thinking that I'm an artist and I'm not making money or that I'm just going to be an artist, I'm not making money that's fine because that's just what it is. Patrick: Yet, you're on here, I'm on here and we're doing it. There, you in the back. Kat: I have a question. My question is do you think that sometimes artists/entrepreneurs, that there's ego attached to being the starving artist? Like there's an element of look at me suffer? It's almost like a badge of honour that I'm the starving artist, do you think that sometimes people are toting themselves back to that? Patrick: I'm doing it. I'm doing it. You know you get in this thing where you're like, I mean I've seen people do this too, and I do this, I'm guilty. I like the story okay, I like the story. I could have, I mean I'm sure if I opened myself up for it more and just said that it's going to be super easy and that it's just going to happen and everything's going to come to me. I'm just going to go in the superflow and do what you said and just go all in on this thing and have it happen. It's just going to boom, the doors are wide open. Patrick: When I did my first programme I sold a bunch of my first programme right. For me that was a lot to sell as much as I did. That was not even fully half assing it, that was like 10% of what I could have really done, of me going all in because I'm running like two businesses right now. There's the story that if I just got away from this one thing, it would just go so much fucking easier and everything would just happen you know. Instead, I'm choosing to build the story and now I'm going to be able to have the little ego and look back on this thing and be like, I struggled so hard when is first started out and you can go track it. Patrick: I've got that in my head, that's programmed in my head from something I've learned from somebody else. You know that you got to step your way up. You work your way up if you want to get there, you can't just [inaudible 00:58:29] you got to work your way up. So, I feel [crosstalk 00:58:33] that same way, I get- Kat: It's so interesting because ... Patrick: Go ahead. Kat: No you go ahead. Patrick: No, my train of thought just ... Just took a shit. Kat: Well, here's the truth right. I am proud of myself, I have ego and pride, not, I don't mean I shouldn't have, but there is, for me there is ego attached to I know what I fucking went through to build this business. I do feel maybe a bit superior about the fact that I know full well that most people would not do what I did and that they will not choose to be tough enough. I like feeling like I'm the one who can get knocked down again and again and again and look at me bitches, I'm still getting back up again. It relates a lot to all my fitness stuff and like I always wanted to be the most badass hardcore chick in the gym and I would definitely get triggered if I saw another chick who was training harder than me. Then it would bring me up to speed right, I would then become friends with them. Then it would be like it's on. Kat: In business, I definitely have pride that comes from yeah, I did go through so much fucking shit and I just kept getting up and every time I felt like I was on the floor and I couldn't get up again, it was that thing of are you dead yet though? No, then keep going. I do like it, I get off on it. Patrick: There you go. Kat: You know, you said this earlier on in the call, you said to me what we had spoken about on the phone the other night, about how I said to you I've gotten a little bored because the truth is I had my, I think I told you this, I told my private clients. I'm sure I told you this on the phone, I had my biggest income month ever last month in May. I haven't even published it or anything, well I told my private clients about it and I did a livestream talking about the mindset of that. But it was my biggest income month ever and it was like I feel proud of it. I feel likes that's cool, but did I get a rush from it, did I get an adrenaline kick, no. To be honest, and I know what I'm going to say now is going to make a lot of people want to throw shit at me, if you're going to throw shit I like Guylian Seashell Chocolates or Chanel, you can throw Chanel. Patrick: Or Vegemite. Throw [crosstalk 01:00:52] poo. Kat: But, it's very [crosstalk 01:00:52]. I got that all sorted already. Patrick: Fling a little poo. Kat: I just, it's easy for me to make money online and I mean look, it doesn't mean I can't relate to and resonate with where people are at in their journey and their struggle. It hasn't been that long ago where was over 100K debt, struggling and that went on for a long time. I know how to break through that and that's how I support my clients, but it's not a rush for me to, like even if I do a launch that would make an insane amount of money, I would be like that's awesome, but also, I just expect it. I'm not doing to get an adrenaline rush from it in the same way that if I cook an amazing steak, and I do cook an amazing steak, I'm not going to be like oh my God, I can't believe it, this is the biggest rush ever. I mean of course it tastes fucking amazing, I know how to cook steak. Of course the launch made that much money, I know how to make money online. Kat: What we had spoken about and this relates to what I'm saying here is, well where do I get my rush from now. Where do I get my adrenaline from because I am that person. It wasn't just that I was proud of myself for getting up again and again every time I got knocked down, it's that I do get off on it. I enjoy it, I like being like, you know, put through, I like the pain. I like purposeful pain and I feel so alive. Like the training session which I spoke about, which I did this morning was the hardest I've gone. I had to ease back into it obviously with my training after my surgery, but so today was the hardest that I've gone since then. I was dying and then within a second of it being over, or anytime I felt more knocked around, I'm smiling at the same time. I'm like this is so fucking good, it's fucking amazing. I crave that, I want it. Patrick: And you desire it because at this stage in the game you know that all these rules are bullshit. The fact that you have to, I had only $30 in my account when I started out, to get customers, to get clients, to get your soulmate clients is bullshit. You would be able to attract them without that fucking story. You know? You don't need, that story doesn't [crosstalk 01:03:05] Kat: Totally. Patrick: I don't think it brings people, I don't [crosstalk 01:03:07]- Kat: Right. And I don't even tell my [crosstalk 01:03:09] yeah. Even I told you parts of my story like when we were on the phone the other night and you didn't even know some of it because I just don't talk about it that much. I have and I do if I get interviewed and stuff, but I don't use that for my marketing. I use my art for my marketing. I just use self-expression for my marketing. Like you said, I don't need the fucking story, but what I do need is, I need to feel lit up, alive. Maybe you're right that yesterday I created resistance to knock me around and make me feel shitty so that today I could then create the contrast and today I'm on fire. Kat: There's more to it than that, like I think, yeah, I do think sometimes for people who haven't broken through on money yet. Or if you've experienced this, if you're a person who can make a little money and then you're like, yeah I'm riding high. Then it just disappears again and you crash up and down, I know a lot of people do that. I did that for years, I would make quite a lot of money and then I'd be like, where is it? Why am I broke again? What's happening? I did that roller coaster for years. Kat: I finally cracked that quota, I figured it out and I teach my clients this all the time. Because I was addicted to the ego and the adrenaline of when your back's against the wall and you don't know if you're even going to be able to buy food that day or God forbid even coffee. Then you just, like a magician, you pull a rabbit out of a hat because you're forced to, you're so back against the wall and you're going to lose, then you just make magic. You're smashing through and you create and you save yourself, but actually w

Katrina: Oh. Okay ... That's what I've gotta do ... Invite. Invite, invite, invite, invite ... Do that ... Okay. All right. How do I add you? I'm blind. I can't see anything. It says I can't bring you on the broadcast at this time ... Why? ... Invite friends ... Okay. That's odd. Do you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna restart this, because usually when I do this ... Oh no, hang on. Now it's letting me ... bring ... Katrina: Adding. Hello, everybody. Patrick: What's up? Katrina: What's up? Patrick: I don't know why I've got this thing hanging up here. A devil horn, demonic. What's up? I had to share in my group and on my wall so, rock and roll. Katrina: Okay. Let me turn this up. My sound is super quiet. Katrina: Welcome everybody. We have no idea what we're going to talk about but it's going to be amazing. Patrick: It is always gonna be amazing, always amazing stuff when me and you get on here. Always amazing stuff when you're here, I'm like, damn! Everything I watch I always send people to you and everybody I meet I'm like, "Dude you have not idea. Cat's shit ... it's changed my life more than just anything I've watched, anything I've listened to." Katrina: Thank you. Patrick: I believe in it. I believe in it though. Katrina: It goes both ways. I nearly tagged you in as my favourite live streamer apart from myself. I think you're the only person whose livestream I consistently watch, I'm very sorry to everybody else who's on here who livestream but I'm just going to admit that I'm not a huge content consumer, I have four or five people whose content I'll consistently consume but you're my favourite live streamer. Patrick: Wow, wow. Katrina: There you go. Patrick: Well I'm honoured to hear that and you know what? Are you still in Baldi? Katrina: No, it just looks like I'm in the jungle. Guess where I am? Patrick: Yeah. Katrina: I'm actually at my local shopping mall. I'm a mall rat, I work from the mall. This is just a cool little area. Whoa, shit. I just did my workout. I just got my sweat on, the gym's right there and I just hang out at the mall all day. Patrick: Let me close this door for just a second before it gets too loud. Katrina: Oh where are our comments? Who's saying hello to us? I just realised we're ignoring you guys and we're only talking to ourselves. I haven't said hello to anybody yet. Patrick: Yeah, Ryan in the house. What's up Ryan, what's up Sage, Cody ... Katrina: Hey everybody. I'm dropping all my shit. Brandon you must have not only see first notifications but you must have some kind of alarm that goes off in your house 'cause you're always instantly there supporting and representing. Patrick: He does. I guarantee he does. He's ready to roll too as well. Katrina: He's always ready to go. Patrick: I have some good news as well today, again. I sold my second programme today. Number two. Katrina: Of course you did. Congratulations. That's a virtual hug. Patrick: Yeah, virtual hug. Get that out the way quickly. Katrina: There's one for everybody as well. Hugs all around. Hey Mandy, Hey Theo, hey everybody just in. That's awesome. You're just owning that energy space that you need to be in, right? Katrina: I saw something you said the other day. Oh, it was in the post that you did about your first sale and you said how you haven't done any funnels yet or any advertising yet or anything like that. It's all been mindset, you went all in on mindset which obviously is something that I was really excited to read. Patrick: Yeah I did and it's one of those things you know? It's something I just want to stick to 'cause I got all the other things down. I can do all the other things. I can do funnel. I already know that that's something easy. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: But I wanted to do my take, cause I know that's just a winner. I can help people out. Much more so with that, it's a bigger fundamental change they can make in their life. Anybody can run Facebook Ads. You can get on YouTube and learn how to build a funnel. Doesn't matter. Build your shit with work press and work with word press everyday, no problem. Katrina: So [crosstalk 00:05:24]. Me? Patrick: What's that? Katrina: Did you say I know nothing about funnels? Patrick: Well I mean ... when I talk to you, you don't really concern yourself with funnels, I like that. It's such a fad type deal. Katrina: I do. I run a programme for my community of funnels cause I was like I know everyone wants to know about it. And yes there are some things we could say about it, but largely my team taught the programme for me. And I just came on like a rock star and did the mind set side of funnels. Cause even when I talk about what should be in a funnel. What I talked about was creating the experience. When people come in to your community. Think about the first seven days and what is the experience you want people to have being apart of your community. You don't want them to fee like they joined another email list. Yay. It should be like, holy shit, what is this bad ass community? Katrina: What's up John? What's up Linda? Linda. Hello. Patrick: Who can you be apart of? Which can segway into my community and what we're talking about today ... cause mine is ... obviously yours is, yours is daily kick ass read for fucken leaders, but you have mostly women. By the way, the person who bought the programme today is a woman. I think she's one of your tribe actually. Katrina: Oh cool. Patrick: Yeah it'd be kind of wild to see how it plays out. But my view is Entrepreneurs Player Club. So it's for men. It's a men's community for men who wanted it all. Who want to take it to the next level no matter what it is in life. They wanna level all the way up. And so it's ... that's the experience I'm providing. You know what I mean? Katrina: Yeah. Patrick: Both have that aspect. So talking relationships I'm sure y'all do that. They were talking about relationships. They were asking about men and women communications on your streams? Katrina: It's ... not on the live stream more on the client groups and then friendships conversations as well. In fact, Linda and I were talking about this last night. Linda's one of my besties on the live stream, she's staying at my house at the moment, she might even be at my house right now. And we were talking about it and we were having some laughs about a few things ... just common thins women do that should be made into viral videos. Ways that women analyse and obsess things that men say, for example. So we were cracking up laughing at things we know we do that are really silly. Katrina: But yet, we still feel like it's a real true thing. But I have this conversation with clients all the time. Not ... I'm gonna say it doesn't happen ... Linda is my wife this week. I already had two marriage offers this week, no this is the third one. Callie Remy's offered to marry me, she's always offering to marry me. She gets very upset when she thinks that anybody else might get in there. Now Linda's offered as well ... it's fine ... I'm fine with what's the word? Polyamory. Katrina: I don't think the relationship conversation happen as much in the daily asking crew as they might. Because it is men and women in there.- Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: So maybe people don't put themselves out there quit as much. But it happens more in my inner circle client group. We do a weekly hot seat masterminds live stream. So for all my private clients, and I would say ... 30 to 40 percent of the conversation is to do with relationships. Then also on my private clients box me everyday and they just audio update me with their questions or what's going on. Probably 30 to 40 percent what my clients ask me about is their relationship stuff. And only 30 percent is business and the rest is whatever to do with labs. Katrina: So, I noticed how when you talk about Entrepreneur Club, you say it's for male entrepreneurs but you say it's about up levelling in every are of life. How relationship all of that. And that's definitely what I feel like I do with my clients as well. That they are all entrepreneurs of some kind. They're coming wanting to up level their business, make more money. But it's actually about creating your whole life purposely. So that's where a lot of the conversations come from. Katrina: But I thought it would be a good topic because I'm not ... firstly I find it a little bit funny that my clients continually ask me for relationship advice cause I'm not an expert on this. Like I can read your ... if they tell me something they said or did or this happened with a guy and what do you think? I'm like ... I'm still learning and growing in this area as well as all areas ... but probably this area more than others I would say, at the moment. So it's not like I'm a certified expert. But, here's my thoughts so here's my feelings. But then when I try and give clients supportive feedback ... and same when I have conversations with friends about something that's happened with a guy in their life. I'm like but I don't really know the male perspective. I only know certain things that I've learned and studied. Katrina: You and I were talking about this last week on the phone. About how I've spent a lot of time over the last year or year and a half trying to understand male/female dynamics. And learning and up levelling in that, so I feel like I understand so much more than I would have 18 months ago. But still I'm like I don't know. I keep forgetting ... and this is what I wanted to talk about with you ... I keep forgetting that men don't think like women do right? Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: There's a certain way that women think and that we approach things. And rules of behaviour that are just automatic for women. And I think that we as women, are prayed in the same way. So then if a man doesn't communicate in a way that we would, we instantly assume they're upset at us or they're annoyed at us, or that they're not interested or whatever it might be. Instead of just being like, men think this way in this situation and women think this way. Does that make any sense? Patrick: Yeah for sure. It's a communication thing. It's like, I know several people that are trying to figure this out. One of the main things is people wanna know is how they communicate better across the genders ... male and female ... try to figure that out and crack the code. I know a guy who's working on it. It's actually his life goal is to figure this out and he thinks that whenever he has figured this out, he'll have solved it and be rich beyond his wildest dreams. Patrick: Everybody, I think, is actively trying to figure it out. I hear this sometimes in my group. I asked the group to find out what they're looking for and what they want in the next ... what they want ... need frame or value on for the next thing that I drop. Patrick: They do quite frequently ask about relationship issues, it's like all across the board. But what I've figured out is that it is always a communication issue. On the aspect is, they always have a communication issue or problem. And so, what I've actually learned recently and through training ... cause I actually looked in to this stuff ... and I've always been trying to figure this out better. It hasn't been always at the top of the list of what I wanted to do. Like I was more concerned about business and opportunities. Patrick: Now later I'm trying to learn more about this. So the best thing that I've learned to do. And I've learned that works the best ... this is so cliché ... but it's just so fucken simple right? It's just being 100 percent honest about every fucekn thing. Like no matter what people just fear rejection.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: That's one of the most basic things, humans don't want to deal with. They don't want to deal with rejection. So they're going to put a mask on, they're going to alter the things that they say and change the things they say. And not be generally honest person. But I think it works out ... this thing is shaking like crazy ... you gave me this thing, I don't know what the hell is going wrong with it.- Katrina: The tri-pod. Sometimes of gets loose and the top and you've got to tighten that little wheel. Patrick: Yeah, how the hell do you tighten the wheel? Oh there we go. Katrina: You hold the other and then you move just the wheel bit. Patrick: There it goes. Katrina: That took me like six months to master. It used to drive me insane. Patrick: It was just bobbing around. Katrina: Hello. Patrick: Hey there we go. Being 100 percent honest, so cliché, but its what people don't fucken do. Katrina: But what if we just said what we think right? What if every time we communicated what I'm actually thinking or feeling, and maybe it is actually scary sometimes to say that or confront it. Okay. Fricken take a deep breathe and give yourself a slap on the cheek and say it anyway. Because it's never gonna serve you to hide your truth. Not in this era, not gonna serve you in this obviously. Patrick: By you saying this, and what you do and what you talk about in every other business and aspect is the key. So should come to you with relationship advice, they should come to your with communication advice. This is the thing that works the best. Katrina: Okay. Can everybody just note that Patrick said I'm an expert on relationship and now I'm gonna do a course on it. You heard it here. Patrick: There you go. You've been dubbed. Katrina: Of course I'm going the to do a course on it at some point. There's gonna be a course on everything. Your ideas of ... you said the things they want most from you is relationship stuff. It's funny cause I asked that same question yesterday in my group. And the thing that most people said they either want me to talk about backwards ageing or about sex. But then when they gave more detail about what they want about sex. I was like okay I'm not gonna do a tantra course or something. I thought they meant sex, the act of having sex. They meant the sexual energy and manifestation I think through sexual energy is what they meant. So a little bit different but still related. Patrick: Yeah they are. I'd like to get in to see what you have to say about that as well too. You know just now getting into that male to female energy. Because males ... A especially ones that are good at communicating with women. They have a certain amount of female energy. It's a yin and a yang. Katrina: Of course.- Patrick: They have that inside of them. That's me to a certain degree. A lot more male ... a lot more on the male side. But when people notice I have this, they have more female in them. They can communicate better that way. And- Katrina: Were they accessing it? Because they already have the male, they already have the feminine in you. It's whether you're allowing it through or accessing it. Patrick: Right, exactly. So another thing I've also learned as well ... everybody's got problems right? I've got a problem too about myself but, I've got a forward free attitude about things. I'm not scared to die. So some people who communicate better with women, better across the sexes. Some men who do this, are men who are concerned with security. For example, men who don't like to fly or put themselves in positions where they could potentially die. They understand security and that is more attractive to women. And that allows them to communicate better with women. Katrina: Why is that more attractive to women? Explain that. Patrick: Because women are more interested in security, for the most part. I know you're gonna say, "Well I have my own philosophy."- Katrina: Is that your impression of ... Katrina: No, no, no. Was that Katrina right then? Cause it was appalling. It was worse than when you did the accent. Which was a British. Patrick: I was gonna say, I saw the look in your eyes. Katrina: No, no. Calm down. I was confused. If you think back to when we were on the phone last week, I know that I directly said to you was women want to feel stability and security but that has to do with ... to me that has to do with full authenticity with what each person wants and knowing where you stand and knowing what the other persons true desires and hopes are. You know? And what their boundaries or standards are, right? Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: I feel stable and secure ... as best as you can know what somebody else is thinking ... but if I know what that persons really thinking and wanting. As opposed to marriage doesn't give security, living together doesn't give security, all these things that people think, when I get that in my relationship then I'm safe, then I'm secure. Then I'm set up. Well I've certainly learned that those things are, that's smoke and mirrors. Katrina: I'm not saying you shouldn't have those things if you want those things, but that is not where security or stability is found in a relationship. And there can't be any security or stability if there's not honesty, right? Patrick: Absolutely. Katrina: And real honesty because I feel like most couples out there would say that they're honest with each other. But it's like to a point maybe. Because there's certain areas that are just taboo or consider acceptable. Or if my partner knew that I thought that, or wanted to do that then they would reject me. So it comes back to what you said before, that fear of rejection. Which is just fear of not being accepted for who you are. Patrick: Yeah, exactly.- Katrina: I was confused when you said about the thing about dying, that confused me. Patrick: Well I was pulling something up. I had a conversation and I was talking about this too and it was more of an attraction thing to have ... I do believe the sexes are different on a DNA level, they're different. Patrick: There's things that you guys find attractive about us that are totally fucking different ... totally fucking different than what we find attractive about y'all. You know? And what draws us to you and what we have to maintain. We have to maintain certain things with women to keep a relationship going. If we start acting a certain way, your DNA is gonna tell you, you gotta get the fuck rid of us. If we start changing our behaviour? Katrina: Like what? Patrick: Well for example if we went from attracting you with being more of an alpha male and we got into the relationship we start being more of a beta male. We started letting ourself go, becoming a fat fuck. And not maintaining that same energy and vibe. We weren't congruent with who you're originally interested in. And we started changing our habits and letting things go. Not only would you see not attracted, you would feel a certain thing inside you that I gotta get rid of this mother fucker or just tear him down to get him out of my life. Or a lot of women ...- Katrina: You wouldn't feel safe. If I was in that situation I would feel emotionally unsafe. I would feel like this guys can't decide if he's going right or left in his life, and on a fundamental ... I think you might need to turn your lighting on ... your in the dark. On a fundamental level, from a survival point of view ... some women might be angry at me for saying this but women want men to protect them and take care of them.- Patrick: That's right. Katrina: On some level if come guy can't decide where he's going in the course of this day, then how the fuck is he gonna take care of me or protect me or have my back. That's what I would feel. Even if I didn't assess that in my conscious mind. On a subconscious level that's what I would be feeling. Then you'd feel unsettled, you'd feel destabilised. Then that would turn to resentment and anger at the guy because it would feel like what the fuck I thought that you were there for and I could depend upon you emotionally, if not in other ways. Then all of the sudden the floor just fell out from under me. So at first I'm gonna feel scared and I'm gonna feel upset. And then if it doesn't correct I'm gonna get angry. And then I think men ... women start to get angry and they turn hard and they turn into bitches and they activate their masculine. Katrina: Then if you add to the fact that right now we're largely speaking to of audience of women who are driven, successful women or are already in their masculine in business. So then if you've got a relationship if the man's not being a man and not leading. Then the woman is gonna be so far in her masculine, which is gonna result in all sorts of whacked up shit, weight gain, angry bitch syndrome, or whatever you wanna call it. Katrina: And it becomes this vicious cycle where the guys not becoming more and more in his power and the women is feeling like she's gotta be in the power and be in charge. But she doesn't want to do that ... maybe some women say they want to be the boos in the relationship ... not the women I know though ... I know women are out there who are like fuck men, but I feel like those women don't feel that at their core. It's just how they've learned to protect themselves.- Patrick: Yeah. Katrina: I know for me and my clients, we're all very driven, high achieving women ... but we talk about this all the time so I'm speaking from my heart ... we want the man to be the man. We want the man to lead, we don't wanna be in charge in the relationship. But if the guy ... like you said ... if the guys not being in his power and not being a leader and not being a "man", then the woman's gonna feel in order to feel safe and for survival reasons she gonna be like, I've gotta fricken run this game. And then be angry at you for not doing it. Patrick: Exactly. And that's the communication thing that we're talking about. People need to know this ... like you have a great beat on this thing ... but most people are like what are you saying the DNA has nothing to do with it. It is, it's very much genetic survival level shot right here. Katrina: For sure.- Patrick: Doesn't matter if you're a woman or not. You're still gonna feel the same thing. If a dudes acting like this, you're still gonna have problems.- Katrina: Yep.- Patrick: You might not know where it's coming from. But if you trace it back to this, that's where it's coming from. It's coming from cave man shit. Cave man days.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: If he's starting to act out like that and you're starting to have problems and you're wondering where these communication issues are coming from. You can trace it back to this. Katrina: On a level were still cave women and cave men and our hormonal systems and our nervous systems operate the same way. And even if a women doesn't have children, psychological, hormonally, and from the nervous system she's wired to want to protect her young. Even if she doesn't have any kids, so that will come up as well, right? Even if it's a relationship with no kids, if the guys starts not being a guy, the women's gonna be worried about that for her own sake but there's also wiring in there hormonally that's like, shit you can't protect my babies, even if they don't exist.- Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: So that brings up even more anger and hormonal responses. So it's just ... I feel grateful that I understand this from when I was in the fitness industry for years. Cause for eight years I actively studies hormonal patterns and advanced hormonal science, it wasn't just physical training that I did. So I get it all from that. So I've learned it all from business as well as my own relationships previously ending. And then watching so many clients end up in broken marriages or broken relationships. And then just looking at these patterns and it's like strong women need and actually want strong men, right? Katrina: They don't wanna be the one who's acting like the men in the relationship. Patrick: But they also need better men too. Because this is the thing ... all that stuff is true and you've got all the underlying communication going on right here. You've got the ... now we understand we've got to be this type of dude. I've gotta make sure I maintain that as well. But I've also gotta be an honest dude. I have to be congruent and say exactly what the fuck is on my mind. Exactly what the fuck is going on. Cause all this other bullshit, this hiding thinking I'm just gonna leave or whatever. That's not what a man does. A man doesn't have a problem with that. A man's not worried if she leaves her or not. That's not how she should be. It should be all of free, she should be free to do what she wants to do. If she wants to leave she can leave. Patrick: But if she wants to be with you she should stick with you. All that stuff should be lined out and laid out honestly, from the get go. From the ... if you lay it out and have a clear map of what's going on. Otherwise you're gonna have these hairline issues, but your whole shits gonna be based on this milky murky service.- Katrina: It's not stable. Patrick: It's gonna be very unstable, yeah. That's why the one key that opens everything up ... and there's never really a problem when you're honest. If you already built something based on fucking lies and stuff already and it's got so far, then you're probably gonna have a problem. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: People are probably are married and shits already set up like this. So in that aspect ...- Katrina: They didn't just set it at the start. Patrick: Huh? Katrina: Yeah, you're right. They didn't discuss it at the start. And I ... that's a hard one cause I'm no longer in the relationship that wasn't working, right? But imagine that you're in a relationship and you loved that person ... and I know quite a few people who are in this situation, right? They're in a really fucked up, toxic relationship. They're both being assholes. They're both hating on each other. The male/female dynamics are all screwed up. But what if they're still in love. What if they still love each and they want to make it work. Katrina: Well then it's like anything ... it's like if someone ends up 50 pounds overweight ... if I remember one time I helped a client lose it would have been near 100 pounds. She went from being chronically obese to being a fitness bikini model, winning world titles, unbelievable, fucking amazing. But it took 18 months ... it was even a bit more than that. And in that time, she really fricken showed up, every single day. She did what I said to do, she gave her all to it, she completely changed her life. She wasn't just like, I want to lose weight so I'll go to the gym three days a week. She committed to her health and fitness 100 percent. And she ended with a result that is so rare for someone to go from being chronically obese to a bikini fitness model ... and by the way she was 44 as well when we did this. It was phenomenal. And to this day I think she's one of the most impressive things I've seen. Katrina: And I think it's the same thing. If somebody's in a really toxic relationship but they do love that person, they wanna stay with that person. Well both can change but you'd really have to fucken be committed to that. It's not gonna happen if you go to a therapy session every weeks. Or if you do a date. Everyone's like we do date. Okay, I'm sure going to the movies once a week is gonna fix all your problems. Katrina: What about ... how many people are communicating and actually being brave enough to share what they're really thinking. That's what it would take. I'm not an expert on it, I have done that, turning a relationship around like that. And I believe fully that of course it can be done. But it would require both parties to be committed and it would require that all in attitude, like my client had when she lost all that weight. Katrina: There was something I was gonna say there. Patrick: Well that ... look what Brandon said, he's actually saying something, he's not trolling today ... he says being able to express emotions is not from a place of weakness. That's good too. Patrick: If you're doing the date night and stuff life that. You're on that and everything trying to make it work. But the guy has to be vulnerable with still maintaining all the other shit that we're talking right? All the other vibes the alpha vibes and things like that.- Katrina: Still being a man.- Patrick: All that same stuff. Free too. I don't give a fuck. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna continue to be social, I'm gonna go out and do what I do and have a good time. And whatever still be that way, no matter how mad you get, that's still going to happen. Patrick: But also vulnerable. Saying how you really feel about it. I don't want you to fucken leave. I don't want you to go anywhere. You're a huge part of my life and I don't want you to leave or do anything like that. To say something like that but still maintaining the other stuff, that is not said. That you just do, the behaviour that you have.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: That's the way to keep it going the right way. So you're maintaining on the subconscious level but also with being vulnerable to a point. You still have to have that female come out.- Katrina: Well that's huge for women for sure. I know I've heard this so many times in different relationships in my life. And I hear this a lot through client and friend conversations too. I think men will tend to assume that we already know how you feel. And they'll be like she knows I feel this way about her. She knows that I don't want her to go or she knows I love her. But you know what? We want you to say it, a lot. That's just what women want. Katrina: And this is exactly something I wanted to ask you. I was gonna get your opinion on this. My female friends for example ... my best friends, so like Linda who was on the live earlier ... Kelly, whoever my friends are. We communicate with each other every single day ... I don't know if all women do this but my friends and I do pretty much daily ... we'll update each other pretty much about everything that's going on in our days. Almost like, it's a form of journaling. I'll be driving and walking and I'll be sending audio messages to my friends. All my friends, this happened and then I thought this, and then I'm analysing my shit or giving them feedback on this maybe. Katrina: But then it's kind of like a continual communication there. Even if one of us is doing an event or really busy with something, there might be less communication but we still check in. And women check in with each other all the time. We have a continual communication. My point is that we do that even if there's nothing to talk about. Where what I've observed with men, it seems to be like, there'll be communication there is there's something to say or if there's something specific to discuss. Or if you end up talking to someone then you end up talking and communicating. But men don't do the check in communication thing.- Patrick: Yes.- Katrina: And I think women kind of want that ... well we do want that. And then when men don't stay in contact we feel like like maybe they're annoyed at us or they've forgotten about us or they're not really into us or something like that. Because we wouldn't do that. We always communicate with other women. But we expect to communicate with men and then I think it's like where's the line. I know when I was journaling last year, what's my ideal relationship I remember specifically writing down, I don't wanna feel like we have to check in with each other everyday. Like I don't want to feel like you've got to check in with me each day, I also don't wanna feel like I've gotta report back on my fucking actions or something like that. Katrina: But then I want that communication. So what's your take on that, what do men feel about communication, if there's nothing really to communicate about. Communication for the sake of communication. Patrick: That's definitely 100 percent. It just depends on the guy and how he communicates. The more he sends you messages the better, cause that's sign of good communication. He understand that a women wants to hear that. That y'all want to hear that. That you need back ... not even like check in ... but I understand like saying what's up? Just to let you know you're on my mind. That type of stuff.- Katrina: Yeah, yeah, yeah.- Patrick: If the dude doesn't do that very well then he's not communicating very well at all. I can understand how people get that way, especially entrepreneurs. Because they get so busy ... especially with social media, the computer age, your so inundated with information and your so inundated with things going and your life gets so busy that you skip past that sometimes. Patrick: Or your just constantly ... we're constantly in from of the phone talking to tonnes of clients. It can get really hectic. That's the way it is in my life at least. That's the way that I'll find myself slipping up on my own communication. And not really doing the right thing on that end. Patrick: Any guy ... every guy needs to know that you should do that. Women need to hear that, that they need to feel that. That you have to have a constant string of communication like that. If you don't then you need to find a chick .. you haven't really found the one that's worth it for you. You need to find someone that's worth it for you to do that for. Patrick: If you've got somebody then you don't need to be with them. You need to go let them find somebody that will give them that. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: Any guy that knows what he's doing will communicate every day. At least that's from my experience. Patrick: What do you think? Katrina: Yeah, for sure. For sure. But I think sometimes also men just don't know this. I think they legitimately ... this is what I've heard or read or figured out from observing ... sometimes I think men think, what I said before. You said men need to be vulnerable and say what they're thinking and feeling. And a lot of times men think, oh she already knows that I feel that. But it's like even if we know, we still want to hear it. Kind of repeatedly. Patrick: Yeah, yeah. Still say it even if you don't get a response from it. Keep on saying it. Keep on saying it. Just keep on going. Same thing with their life. Y'all can get busy too. Katrina: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Patrick: It's the same way though. That's where the miscommunication comes in. But do never stop telling a woman the stuff that you feel about them. Should never stop doing that. It should be consistent. Consistent thing. Patrick: As far as guys go, how we communicate. Me and my best friends we just send meme's back and forth I work with my friend. So we'll pick up the phone and talk business. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: Calling ... people don't fucking call anymore, you gotta call. And talk too. Pick up the phone and call.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: Meaningful talking, tell them what's on your mind. Tell them how you feel, that's what all of this is all about feelings. All feels. Katrina: It goes both ways cause I know we get really scared to say what we're feeling, cause it's just that constant vulnerability. Fear of being exposed or fear of feeling that you've opened yourself up. Vulnerability that you might get rejected or hurt. So if men what to say what they're feeling more, women need to be brave enough to do that as well. And ultimately realise that if you tell a guy how you feel and you share your truth. And then that scares them away or they don't agree or don't like it or they don't align to it. Then that's fantastic then you figured out not to waste your time. Better to say what you really think and you really want and having a discussion about or feel like, nope that's never gonna happen, that doesn't move it for me, I don't like it, I don't align to that. Well maybe you got hurt or you feel hurt but actually you saved yourself a fuck load of effort and time, rather than dancing around hoping you can ... what? Trick some body into wanting to be with you or something? Patrick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You also got ... sorry I was just reading some of these comments ... but you also got ... fuck I was thinking of something ... fuck ... my brain, I just had an aneurism ...- Katrina: Just a minor little one. You look fine. You seemed to have survived. Marsha says you love the accent. I don't know if you means your accent or my accent. Patrick: What I was going to say is if the guy also has issues in the past ... as I do .. I have issues in the past, that I've been fucked over before, plenty of times. All you have to fucken do is say it. Very fucken simple. Just fucken tell the situation.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: You've been fucked over. Who gives a fuck, the same way as there are as many clients in the world. There's as many women in the world. So why don't you just be honest, you're gonna run into somebody. Just be fucking honest, say what the fuck ... say what is really going on.- Katrina: Yeah, for sure.- Patrick: What think she's gonna tell her friends and you're never gonna get laid again? Don't be stupid, and turn away getting laid. Say what you really ... don't lead people down this death trap. If you've got issues, if you got shit you need to work out. Bring that shit up to the front. Let em know, boom what you get yourselves into, that way they know. That way from there it's so easy to be honest. ' Katrina: Right. Totally. Women appreciate that. I don't know if men wanna hear all that. Actually I wanna hear your answer to this cause I saw guy the other day say ... I can't remember where this was maybe a post on Facebook or something ... I saw a guy say, I don't wanna hear all your issues, I don't wanna hear your shit that happened with your ex or something. And I was kind of triggered by it when I saw this post. Katrina: Okay, I wouldn't want to be going on and on about my previous relationships all the time. But it does feel like to me it's relevant or important to talk about cause that's part of who I am in as a person and part of my growth that I'm currently doing ... for me personally for example ... is a lot of it is what I learned from previous relationships that I didn't want. Katrina: So to me it makes sense that I would speak about that to some degree, with the person who's in my life. I saw this guy put a post up like, you know, men don't wanna hear that, we don't want to hear your stories about what happened to you before or what your feeling. It was maybe kind of an asshole post but I was like, is that true? Cause women do ... we do actually wanna hear those stories. We really wanna hear where somebody's at and what they're thinking or feeling. Cause then it comes back to civility and we feel safe. Okay now I understand it. Patrick: Like if she's worth it. If she's worth it. Bad communication if she's worth it and you don't wanna hear her fucking past because that's all good shit right there. You want to know her demons are up, you want to know who her fucking enemies are because you want to go, her enemies are your fucking enemies, right? That's your job as a man. So you gotta ... this is all information you should wanna hear ... like I said, if she's worth it. If she's not then bounce down the road.- Katrina: Yep.- Patrick: But if she is, if she's worth it to you then that would be the lamest thing I ever heard. I bet she's probably not getting much ... like you said you were getting turned off ...- Katrina: Yeah I unfriended him.- Patrick: There you go.- Katrina: I only keep how bad people and I was like ... okay thank you for showing me who you are. But I was curious ... then I felt insecure by it ... because then I was thinking that I've shared things that have to do with my past relationships even with you and then I was like, shit is that an annoying thing to do. Should I not be doing that? Then I kind of questioned myself on it. And then I moved on. But I was curious if other men think that or this guy was just random dude on my newsfeed that somehow snuck.- Patrick: That's a random dude. You wanna know as a man who wants to be better man who wants his relationships to last, you should be more than interested, more than happy. And those people be like, oh my gosh I can't hear this. I know some dudes thinking this way. But fuck man you probably suck at communication. Look at your relationships. Look at what you got going on in your life. Look at the woman of your dreams, is she still there? Probably fucking not. Patrick: You should wanna hear that shit. You should want to listen to that and hear it. You wanna know what her crazy is. You wanna take her crazy. You wanna be able to handle ... just drop it on me. Drop all the bad, drop all the negative, bring it to me. I'll take it for you. We'll play these games together. Katrina: Yeah, yeah. Patrick: That's the best ...- Katrina: That's pretty cool. I think that's definitely what makes us feel safe. That's what we want. We want to feel that way, safe to express. And it's also because relationship are constant growth. There constantly giving you an opportunity to see your shit. Sometimes your shit comes up. I think the more a relationship is a soul alliance relationship the more that it actually can show you your shit and bring your shit to the surface, so sometimes it can feel a bit relentless or a bit fuck I don't wanna be faced with all my shit every fricken day. And it's kind of life with mentoring as well. With a solo mentoring, I know I'm such a mirror for my clients, that sometimes they don't want to hear it. They're like fuck off Kat. Get up, go away, I don't wanna be in that space. And it's well okay, they're gonna come back anyway cause this the growth that I know I need. Right?- Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: This is what I need to step into. And I think with a soul alliance relationship it's the same thing. The more that there's a true connection there the more it's actually for your growth for both of you. For your growth and healing so it may or may not last forever, whatever that is, but either way when there's that connection and that time together, you're both going to continually get confronted with your shit and then it's, okay, yes it feels uncomfortable or I feel scared or I feel triggered or now I'm feeling insecure. Katrina: So the two things I've really learned from that is, like what we've just been saying, tell the other person this is what I'm feeling. I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling this. But secondly also look at, what can I learn from that? How can I grow from that? Because is that real and true or is this my reactive story. Maybe something happens and then it reminds you of a previous relationship, where that meant something bad or scary so then you automatically assume something bad or scary's gonna happen and you get into this reactive state and this reactive story rather than actually seeing for what it is. And being like ah ... like a huge one for girls is if they message a guy and then the guy doesn't reply, right? Or doesn't reply for a few days or whatever. Katrina: We'll go into a massive tail spin drama, like clearly he hates me now. He doesn't like me at all, he's not interested and then ... my friends and I were talking ... I think Linda and I were talking about this ... and it was like or maybe he just didn't reply and that's the whole end of the story and there's actually no additional meaning to it at all. And you just created all this stuff in your head. Like maybe you did this, maybe he wasn't checking messages, maybe he didn't feel like replying. But it doesn't have to be, oh my God it was this and this and this and this and this. Katrina: So for me when I notice myself having those reactions, like oh my God it means this this this and this and then I laugh at it. I'm like okay or it could mean nothing at all. I've got all my own stories and drama coming up so this is a great opportunity for me to process that, detoxify it and see where I'm living actively in, as opposed to casting in myself. Patrick: Yeah. But he could also say something to to fix that. Like if you don't hear from me, and say like an hour or two hours after you message me just hit me back, you've probably got lost in the sauce. Probably got lost in the mix. Katrina: Yeah, yeah.- Patrick: Something he could fix right there. Katrina: But without ...- Patrick: If you're a man.- Katrina: That's a good thing to say cause what women will think though. They would think that would make me look needy or insecure, if I followed up the message. Then he's gonna think I'm hassling him or I'm needy. So that's the female mindset. Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: Right? Rather than being more ... go ahead.- Patrick: What's that? Patrick: Hello? Patrick: We got a bad connection? Katrina: No, I think I just cut you off. We're you still talking? Patrick: I was just saying if you say something like that, then that kind of opens ... that lets you do know that that's cool to do, you know? Katrina: Right. Yeah.- Patrick: It opens it up.- Katrina: Yeah. Alright I feel like we talked a lot about what women want from men but what do men want from women then? Patrick: Well, it's pretty basic. Obviously if your a deeper thinking guy you want good conversation, good company, hanging out. But then there's always sex, the basic needs, sex ... I mean just want to ... you have to have something you really want to go for. It's like a [inaudible 00:49:22]. It has to be something you're really trying to achieve. And this could something more than, it's something you're trying to get over yourself. Something you're trying to level up yourself. You definitely want somebody you can speak with, that you can communicate with and just share stuff back and forth with. A companion is what a good girlfriend is, you know? Patrick: That's pretty basic. Guys we don't really require that much. As long as those things are there that's fine. Also, and this just ... there's a lot of different flavours of what people are looking for out there. I can't tell a guy what he's looking for in a woman or anything like that, you know? But as far as my own wife. Being open, being honest, say what I wanna say and have somebody that's down with that ...- Katrina: Shit.- Patrick: Like I said, as long as I'm being honest then I don't have to worry about ...- Katrina: Oh my God.- Patrick: I don't have to worry about the other shit. That other persons gonna bounce off, that's gonna be my flavour. It's like the perfect client or the perfect customer.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: As long as I keep on being myself and keep on saying what's on my mind out here, then they're gonna come. Katrina: Be fully you.- Patrick: My right person. I can't speak for all men on what they're looking for, all I know is that I keep doing this. Keep saying what's on my mind then the right person or right people are gonna come into my life no matter what. That's not a problem. I just manifest that.- Katrina: Yeah. Katrina: [crosstalk 00:51:13] Katrina: It's the same as your friends, right? We don't worry about all this stuff in order to find any amazing friends that we've got in our lives. It didn't come about through some process surveying people, trying to be cool, trying to be whatever. You become friends with someone because it just happens somehow. Wherever you met them. There's a resonance there and you become best friends. And that's exactly how I've attracted all my friends. It just kind of happens. I just be who I am and they come along. It definitely had gotta be the same with relationship ... I think there's probably exceptions to this ... I think it can be super casual or whatever, doesn't really matter as much, it's just in the moment. Katrina: But for anyone who you're gonna see ... for me at least ... anyone that I'm gonna see more than a few times, I've gotta have that connection, I've gotta have that resonance there. Or I'm gonna get really bored. But it's just not, it doesn't feel like a good use of my time. It would kind of feel like I would try and be friends with somebody just because they were my neighbour or lived on my street. I'm sure we could get a long and have a conversation but I'm really gonna not do that unless I absolutely have to. Patrick: Yeah, exactly. Or just in a particular situation, you're out having fun or whatever and it's just something happens. That's natural. If you're a person who's congruent, people are gonna find that attractive about you. People are gonna find you attractive just cause you're a nice woman, you got nice hair and everything like that. So they're gonna find you attractive. I don't discount anybody out here having fun and doing all that. But for fun if you're talking about a soul connection and things like that, that just comes ... you feel that back and forth. It's just somebody who's easy for you to talk to.- Katrina: Right.- Patrick: It's so easy for you to pick up the phone and talk to them. Or so easy for you to text back and forth and speak to them and you can speak to them for a long time and you can speak to them for a long time, it's good conversation. If you don't have that and you've just got this shit pieced together because of the persons looks or you're feeling rejecting of that person to leave. If you don't have this back and forth then why the fuck ...- Katrina: There's no connection ...- Patrick: Go ...- Katrina: Right ...- Patrick: Just figure something else out, stope having a scared fish mentality about your life.- Katrina: Totally.- Patrick: You're scared this persons gonna leave. Or your scared this persons gonna think of you or whatever. And you just so forgetting that there's seven billion people on this planet. Katrina: Yeah. It should only be soulful. The friend thing again. There's plenty of friends that I've faded out over my life in the past five to ten years as I've become more and more who I am, I guess. In business and life. There's been friendships lost along the way. It's not like I ever broke up with any friends or socked anybody as my friend. But it just faded away, like you would meet up and it would be like, so this is really hard going to have a conversation. Katrina: So to me I have the level that I expect from all my relationships. Whether it's friends, clients, or romantically, where I'm just not gonna be in that if I don't have that conversation. And with men in particular, it wouldn't even progress beyond a certain point of that connections not there. You might have somebody and go out once or twice, but for me and my client as well ... I speak for my clients. I don't think it would get past two or three times meeting up with someone where your like, well if that conversation isn't there I can't do that. This is draining my soul and my mind. It doesn't mean I can't laugh and have fun and be social in different situations. But to spend time one on one with somebody, sex alone is not enough to keep you going, to meet up with somebody. At a certain point it's like I actually have to talk to this person as well. Patrick: Yep. It's one that leads to deeper conversations. It just is. But with the internet now, with social media the way it is ... you're really wasting time ... I can understand back in the day with horse and buggy shit and they had to settle, settle for something out there. But you're an enlightened person, you're thinking higher level than you would be so wasting your time. And why would you do such a fucking thing? Why would you settle and trap yourself and be living in a prison the rest of your life? I could not imagine what that must feel like for some people, you know? Katrina: Well people accept it as normal. They accept that that's just how it is. That relationships are a drain and that they're not something that I value to you. It's like something that cost you and I felt that way for a period as well, as you know. It was just where I was at in my journey that I bought into that belief. But fundamentally I didn't believe it and I wonder ... I see so many people who are so unhappy in their relationships and they just think that's how it is. But typically the people who I observe that are like that are the people who are not creating their life purposefully in other areas also. They're just accepting the status quo in everything. Where as for people like us, and people watching this. You don't accept the status quo in business or in lifestyle or in health. So why the fuck would we accept it in relationships? Katrina: Even for me, even when I was settling. I was so out of alignment and I knew it. I knew that fundamentally I don't believe this is how it has to be, of course I can have it all, cause I create my reality in business, in fitness , with my money, with my travel, with my lifestyle. Why would I not believe I can have a standard of excellence and amazingness in that area as well ...- Patrick: That's ...- Katrina: You can believe that ...- Patrick: That's a self love thing though. I think we've talked about this too. A big thing is self love. I started looking at this shit and I used to drink quite a bit and I started getting into these bad relationships. I started thinking about, I'd get into these bad relationships and I'd drink. When I wake up the next morning I would always think these things, I can't believe what you did, you fucken, I can't believe you acted like that, you drank, you piece of shit, you're fucken worthless. You're like garbage and I fucken hate myself. Patrick: So I thought this was something that happened after I got drunk. After I would get drunk and wake up the next morning just have these thoughts. But then I really started getting into loving myself. Love myself, loving the way I talk, loving the way I speak, loving the way I do things, loving the way I write and do things in general. And thinking that no matter what, even if I'm out there fucking up, I got my meme, I love the way I fuck things up. I love the way I fuck shit up ...- Katrina: Yeah, yeah, yeah.- Patrick: Even if I fuck shit up, it's part of my journey and I'm having a good time right? Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: I love the way that I do that. I love the way I get into shit. I get into some fucken trouble in the club, whatever, you know what I'm saying? I'm having a good time, it's fun. So then I start living like that, I started waking up and started feeling like, I would even get drunk and wake up the next morning and be like, fuck ... I wasn't having these thoughts anymore, you know? Katrina: Yep.- Patrick: I'm like I love myself.- Katrina: That self acceptance, yeah.- Patrick: It's not the ...- Katrina: Totally ...- Patrick: I'm not telling anybody just go be an alcoholic, I have a few drinks right? I've gotta control myself still. But, everything's in order. I'm not doing totally crazy shit like driving. I'll take an Uber as where I go. I just go have a good time. And even if I did, it's still self love. No matter what you do, still love yourself cause it's part of the fucken journey. That person that really, that person that needs to be in your life can come into your life, you know? And be part of your life, cause other wise you're gonna be building this prison cell for yourself. Katrina: Right.- Patrick: Around these people that you don't fucken life, cause you don't like yourself.- Katrina: Right, it's gotta be total love and acceptance. Brandon said love yourself even if you eat those fries. That's a really relevant analogy for a lot of women in particular. Katrina: Like I spent 15 years of my life if I would eat a fricken cookie I would hate myself for it and then I would do hours in the gym the next day. Now I'm like, if I eat something that doesn't feel good to me I'm like, okay whatever, either way I love and accept myself and from a place of love and acceptance I'm probably gonna make good choices. Katrina: Like there's many times where I might say something ... in relationships ... where I then feel self conscious or I feel like oh my God that was stupid or maybe I said it the wrong way. But I let go of it instantly now, because I'm like, it's whatever because I'm safe to be me. I love and accept myself regardless. And either this connection is real and will go on or it's not. And either way is fine. Cause like you were saying before, there's so many people in the world. The soul mate people are out there. The cookies. They want cookies ...- Patrick: They all sound good to me right now, I wish I had some ...- Katrina: Cookies. I just think you're so grounded when you learn how to love yourself. I know I fully love and accept myself now and that's probably really been in the past six to nine months. I think we were talking about this last week. I had to actively learn to do that though. I noticed that I finally admitted and acknowledged that I didn't love myself. That I wasn't treating myself as a person who loves themselves. And I embarked upon a bit of a journey to do that. Really, through my inner work and set work but mainly through choosing it. And also it's a helpful thing to use as kind of like, in order to figure shit out, whenever you feel unsure how to interact with somebody ... in a relationship or this is true in business also ... then you can say to yourself, if I did fully accept and love myself, what would I say in this moment? Right? - Patrick: Right.- Katrina: Or what would I act like? Is it something I need or want. I feel like that person doesn't know that or maybe they don't wanna give that. Well if I loved and accepted myself I would say what want. I would be okay with saying this is what I want, this is what I need. And I'd also be okay with the answer regardless, right? Katrina: Why would I need to be scared to say what I want if I love and accept myself? Patrick: Exactly. Same thing with guys too. - Katrina: So it's a practise.- Patrick: I could see myself though, before this, cause I've heard this plenty of times before and when I was younger. So it's very hard for somebody that doesn't love themselves to hear this kind of stuff. I don't know what you're talking about loving yourself, what the fuck are you talking about? Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: That shit. Life sucks, this kind of stuff. It's very hard, maybe this will change somebody that's right on the edge of that and get it started ...- Katrina: Well people have to be ... Katrina: [inaudible 01:02:49] Patrick: What is that? You said ... a guy still needs to hear this stuff to as well. Cause you've got two voices going on in your head. You got this one that's saying, yeah you got this pump up voice that's saying let's go dominate the world, let's go crush it, let's go make this money. But you also got this one that say, you fucken piece of shit, I can't believe you fucken did this, I can't believe that you fucked up again. People do this all the time, you'll say stuff, like you just fuck up, I can't believe you fucken lost your keys again, when you gonna stop fucken losing your keys. Where if you've heard somebody talk to you like this, if you heard somebody saying things to you like this, you would tell him to go fuck himself you know? If they told you, if they said things like this in real life ...- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: You'd tell em to go fuck themselves. So it's like another, it's about self love right? That's a big ... that's a disconnect right there. You have to get rid of that voice, you have to love the stupid shit that you do ...- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: You have to love all the shit that you do no matter what, cause it's just your journey. You have to flip that, so I'm telling you, that's part of it. So if you cath yourself saying things like that to yourself then that's a problem. That's something you need to ... when you do, your life's gonna be better, your relationships gonna be better. Things are just gonna fall into place.- Katrina: And it just makes it so easy well. You realise that you can't screw up. It's not possible to screw anything up. And then the other thing I like to use as a guiding question aside from love and acceptance is, reminding myself that everything's perfect and everything's as it's meant the be. So sometime when something happens where at first you're like fuck, that's not good, or that's scary or bad or whatever. To then go, oh but wait, if I fundamentally believe that everything's perfect then that means this actually meant to be what's happened. So even though I don't understand it right now or it feels confronting or it's just annoying or whatever it is. If everything's perfect, than that means this is perfect, that means I'm safe. That means everything's as it's meant to be, I'm on path, even if I can't see the fucking path. So therefore, I'm free. So what do I actually choose to do. What is my action that I'm gonna take in this moment. What do I want to say. Katrina: I just think relationship in particular are built ... commonly built on so much fear ... like so much masking and ding and trying to say the right thing or trying to show not too much of yourself, cause then you might end up unsafe. But really you get that safety from inside of you and it starts with love and acceptance. And it starts with having powerful, fundamental beliefs in place. Such as I believe I always make the right decision. I fully believe that about myself, but I had to process that belief, I had to cultivate that belief and even when I didn't believe it. Cause at first my mind would have been like, uh no you don't you screw up all the time. Katrina: So then I started practising that belief. No, I always make the right decision, everything is always as it's meant to be. It is impossible for me to screw up. Even if I say something and afterwards I'm like, why did I say that? Then I'll smile and go, well maybe I can't see the reason right now but I know that I always make the right decision. - Patrick: There you go. - Katrina: So therefore I was meant to say that in order to learn something. Patrick: Yep, exactly. I know I'm doing the right thing. No matter what. Not only that you have better conversations when you're honest. You'll start seeing these conversations, you'll start having these conversations, like holy fuck this is a real conversation.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: What the fuck are these mother fucker talking about? You listen to them. I heard one like, can we skip TGI Fridays today and go to this other place? TG what the fuck? Shit that you're talking about when you're having an honest conversation, like this is a different fucking conversation. It's a totally different thing. - Katrina: It's a whole new level. It's a level that most people will never operate on the truth of the matter. And like you said, maybe some people watch this and they're like what the fuck are these people on about. They're just full of shit or whatever. But I think people have to be understood and pointed on their journey. Even if they don't understand this to be curious and be like, yeah I feel like there's something there that I can explore and want to explore. And I wanna open myself up to that. Katrina: Why would you not open yourself up to complete freedom? Right? Patrick: You should. And that's why, the thing about marriage, I just don't see ... there's so much fucking different, different problems along the way. If these people have built something and they've signed a contract. If they've built it on something and they've signed a contract on something that's not like this. That's not 100 percent completely honest, which most of it isn't, let's be honest. Then I feel fucken sorry for these people. I really do. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: It's just fucked up. Cause that's society, like we saying that's hypnotising, that's brain washing, that's why people wear these masks in the first place. That why people shut themselves down, and then they get in these fucken situations and then you know, next thing you know, get date nights and all this weird shit going on. Katrina: Yeah, but I think. I know for me, back when I got married, I'd never heard of all this stuff. It never occurred to me to share my deepest fears. I know we did speak very openly and vulnerably about a lot of stuff I guess but there were certain things where you didn't or you wouldn't or I didn't have the level of communicating or understanding that I do now have. And most people don't ... like you and I and people here, we're doing growth work every single day.- Patrick: Every day.- Katrina: In multiple areas of our lives and we're unbelieving all the time. Where as most people when they enter a relationship or get married have not even fricken heard of growth work so they might try and have an honest conversation but they don't even understand what that would mean to have a really honest conversation. So it's kind of an interesting one. I think even if you had a massive awesome level of open honest communication and then you got married ... but with or without you have this relationship, an official relationship. Well the only way that that's gonna thrive is if people are continuing their own individual growth and continuing to have those open discussions together as well. Katrina: It's just ... the reality is, there's just a few amount of people in the world, percentage wise, who do that. It still adds up to millions of people obviously but, it's not the norm. Katrina: I hear people talk about their relationships all the time or you'll observe it or you listen in. I travel so much and usually I'm by myself when I'm travelling so I really commonly will go to restaurants by myself and I'll just work on my laptop. And it's so interesting to just observe couple togeth

Kat: Alright. We cannot begin yet. Okay, one second. Hmm, approve. Kat: I feel like I'm brand new to the internet when I do these sorts of things. Patrick: Hey! Kat: I feel like such a magician. Patrick: We can begin. Kat: To me it's like a greater accomplishment to successfully do a split screen broadcast then it is to launch some massive new programme. Patrick: It's pretty badass. Kat: Yeah, I was very scared about how that would work. I felt technologically challenged. Patrick: I'm trying to get used to it. But I ... Kat: Is somebody seriously sending angry faces? Patrick: Yeah. Probably Brandon. Kat: Brandon's angry that he's not on the live stream. Patrick: Yup. Sorry Brandon, not today. Not today. Kat: Not today. I've got to say that my lighting looks better than your lighting. Patrick: Not right now. I put in my room so I can get way better lighting. Actually I'm gonna do you even ... Kat: You're view is way better. Patrick: I'm gonna do even dirtier than this. Kat: Dirtier? We're going dirty already? Patrick: Real dirty style. There we go. Okay. Actually I'll get in that bed. Kat: Is that an accent? Whose got an accent? I don't have an accent, obviously. Everybody knows that. Patrick: No way. Kat: My accent is ... Patrick: It's purely for shits and gigs. Kat: One day, maybe when you've known me for a hundred years, you'll figure out that I'm not British. Patrick: British, Australian, it's the same thing. I'm sorry to let you know it. Kat: Oh, it's so not. Patrick: Alright, so I'm all set up now. So my lighting is good. Let's see where you told me about the ... To turn the lighting on. I can't really do it. That's one thing that's missing here, is that little button you showed me to brighten it up. You know, to brighten the ... Kat: You look bright. Patrick: Yeah, let me see if I can switch that on. Kat: You look like you've got a tanning line [inaudible 00:02:26] on your face. Patrick: That's good. 'Cause I definitely do not. But let me get some more. Put that down. Boom. Kat: Alright. Now we're gonna go into it. Patrick: I don't know how you want to start this off, but I'm ready. I am in the zone. Kat: Firstly I think we need to set the tone, and let people know that this will only be serious and professional content. No laughing emojis are allowed. Patrick: Hey let me share this. I wonder if I can share this with my group? Let's see if that works on this thing. Kat: Yup. Patrick: Okay, share to group. Awesome. Players club, there we go. Kat: Hey. Patrick: Boom, it's done. Kat: I just said no laughing emojis you guys. Don't send laughing emojis automatically when I say "no laughing emojis". That wasn't funny at all. It was completely non-funny. We've actually had a serious discussion about this live stream before. We went live, it's actually taken all day, neither of us have accomplished anything. Except discussing the fact that this live stream will be only serious and professional business. Patrick: Straight professional. Only professional business. Strictly business. Kat: Purely professional. Strictly business. People wanted me to introduce you again. How did every ... how did ... You gotta go ... Sorry can't do intros again. We did intros last week. You're gonna have to go to his profile, follow his profile. You'll very quickly figure it out. You'll either be deeply drawn in, or potentially shocked and appalled and you'll leave. Patrick: Gonna be horri ... Kat: Much the same as when people [inaudible 00:03:55] my profile. Patrick: You'll be horrified. Yeah I'm on a camp chair, Meg. Meg just asked me if I'm on a camp chair. This is a camp chair in my house. Kat: Yes. Patrick: That's a quick ... But that's a good segue right there. Why am I on this camp chair? I'll tell you why. You know, I'm just recently starting new, you can go check out my stuff. You see all the stuff that has been going wrong since I actually finished my offer, and put my offer out there. Right? Patrick: So, I had quit my job to go start doing all this crazy cool shit that Cat told me about. Convinced me to go be myself and just say whatever the fuck is on my mind. Just have ... Kat: I didn't convince anybody of anything. Patrick: You convinced me. She convinced me to do it, so I just quit my job. If this fails, I'm blaming it all on you Cat. I'm blaming it all on you. And uh ... Yes you. Kat: I did nothing. I just lead my damn life and then people do whatever they want in response to it. Patrick: What I heard was "Quit your job, Patrick, quit your job." So over and over again I'm hearing this, and I left. And so ... Kat: Question. Patrick: What's that? Kat: Can we block Ryan's [inaudible 00:05:07] from being on this live stream? Patrick: Yeah he's [inaudible 00:05:09]. Very, very mad. But I think he knows that you had some kind of part in this whole thing. So, of course. Patrick: But anyways, so I just jumped off cold turkey. Needless to say, I still had a shit tonne of bills, 'cause I live a pretty expensive lifestyle. And so, yeah I just said "Fuck it". I just had a couple of skills. Patrick: Now I do have a few skills. I do build marketing automation systems. I do build for people like Cat, coaches. You know I can take your shit and boost that shit up. You know what I mean? Get you some automation going, make you some money. But, that's a skill that I'm not really trying to use. Why? Because somebody else is trying to do this shit for myself. Patrick: the first time in my life, I'm making my own bed, I'm doing my own thing. I'm doing it for myself. What's on my mind is going to come out. Putting it out there, and just to bring this all back home. The fucking deal is, ever since I started doing this, every fucking thing I can possibly think of, that could possibly go wrong, is going wrong. Patrick: As a matter of fact I'm on a cell phone right now. Because my laptop screen, my mac screen burnt the fuck out. TV burnt out. I can't even, the list goes on and on. It's just. Kat: What? The TV burnt out now? Patrick: The TV burnt out, the laptop screen burnt out. First the laptop screen burnt out. On my mac that I bought, like probably two years ago, all of sudden that shit burnt out. On the day that I dropped my offer, mind. On the day that I finally, finally stayed up all night, and crafted this thing out and wrote it all up. Kat: Tried to go to bed halfway through. Patrick: Tried to go to bed halfway through. Not being able to. And staying up and finishing it. Then waking up early in the morning and even more finishing it. And then even halfway through the day, till one o'clock today, finally finishing it. Off of a MacBook, which had a burnt out screen. That I hooked up to a big ass TV, in the living room. Kat: Which looked amazing. Patrick: It looked pretty good. Yeah it looked amazing. I was gonna do what you told me. Which was present my offer. Instead of just writing it out, I was gonna present my offer on TV. It was gonna be all crazy, badass, a great idea. I thought it would have been fucking wonderful. Had it worked. Patrick: So, you know, TV burnt out. Brand new TV mind you. Don't buy Zenio. The MacBook burnt out, and now won't connect to that TV. I took it in here to the other TV. It won't connect to that one either. And every possible thing to prevent me from doing this, has been happening. Patrick: So now, I have a little phone, and a camp chair. Because I'm not gonna sit in there, I'm gonna sit right here and actually have something go right. I'm having a good backdrop, right? Patrick: I have a good backdrop, and just ... I don't know. This is going pretty well I think. Kat: It's going exactly as it's meant to. Are you reading the comments? Patrick: I am kind of, yeah. I was just talking. I get ADD so I can't really, I'm gonna have to go back. Kat: Well, everybody's like "Your whole life is blowing up". I think Katie said, this is pretty much ... You know this, this happens. I hear this every single time somebody actually full backs themselves. Kat: Yeah exactly what Kristin said. It's an "are you sure" from the Universe. Patrick: Yeah, it's double check on it right? I don't fucking know. I don't know, but it's crazy. It's like a poltergeist, or something is ... Kat: It actually means ... Do you know what it means? It means, like all that shit happens. The more that shit like that happens, the answer is you just gotta be like "bring it the fuck on then, I'm ready". And let it go faster. And then it's a level up after that. It's the breakdown, before the breakthrough. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: Like for sure, if shit starts blowing up it's means that I'm about to go to a super high next level. And I've seen it a million times with my clients, and friends. Patrick: It's gotta be right there. You know, that's the one thing too. I'm totally, so all in with it and every single day I get even more all in on it. And just finishing that up, and just putting it out there and seeing all shit happen. It just makes me want to go even more all in, you know? So I'm like, let's just keep seeing how far this goes. And maybe, maybe you know, six months down the road I'm gonna be fucking living in a shoe box somewhere. Maybe. Patrick: But then I still have faith, and I still know that there's going to be that sales that gonna come in there. Eventually. It's gonna come. Kat: I think it's about, like everything that you would lean on outside of yourself gets striped away, and you learn how to fully lean on yourself. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: Yeah, "Arrow is drawn back before being shot forward" says Stephen. Patrick: He's in my ... Kat: Exactly. Patrick: He's in my entrepreneur players club. What's up Stephen? I dropped the link back there. Kat: Yeah, you gotta put that link for the club in here. Patrick: I gotta be marketing myself now. You know what I mean? I gotta be doing this. Kat: It's exactly how it goes for everyone. It's like, it's the test. And it's the "are you sure", and it's when you start laughing at it and be like "okay, I see what's happening here. Surrender." Then it all just starts to wash over you. Kat: But it makes you stronger anyway. Like, you're already getting stronger through it everyday. Patrick: It's tough. Some crazy stuff happened today too, though. Like just goes beyond that. Just to let me kind of know I'm going on the right path. Like, you know Travis Plum, he's on here right now. He's all in. He says "all in". Kat: [inaudible 00:10:49] Patrick: Yeah T Plum was over here today, and he is just all in. We have another sales guy that's gonna be coming on. He's doing his thing, and he just kind of popped up. So it just kind of feels like there's support now, on that. It's cool to see there's some other shit going on. It doesn't totally feel like I'm out here by myself, even though shit's still fucking up. Patrick: Shit's still fucking up for them. They're in the same boat, but now there's us. We're pouring the water out of the boat. And we're motivating each other. And it's kind of difficult when you're just by yourself doing it, but you kind of get those thoughts. You know what I mean? Patrick: The thoughts ... I don't know if you know what I mean, but you get the thoughts that ... You probably haven't had these thoughts in a long time. Kat: I don't know. Yeah, well I still remember though. It doesn't seem like that long ago for me really, since I was in that place. It's not actually that many years ago. Kat: But you know what I think is really cool? Basically nobody would talk about it, like you're talking about it right now, while they're going through it. Everybody waits till afterwards. Like even I fully talk about it as transparently as what you're talking about it right now. Kat: Nobody does that. Everybody waits till later on, and they can tell story. Or they might tell a little bit of it. [inaudible 00:12:17] your just like, "There it all is." Patrick: Hey I thought about that too, but I'm like, you know what if I'm going down through it, if I'm going to go through it, I'm like, might as well fucking do it. Just do it. Patrick: I was thinking though, and this is something I want to talk about. 'Cause I had wrote like a pretty long post earlier today, to go in company with my thing. You know. And it's like talking about how, you know I'm just gonna fucking do it. And I'm just gonna drop the parachute out and just fucking, just go and do it. Patrick: Not only that, I'm gonna show you guys ... I'm gonna let you all in to see it, and you know. I promise you that I'll take everybody through this whole thing and you'll be there, and everything like that. And there's all sorts of different options that could happen for me. Patrick: In the next month, or two months that if I don't put up, if things don't happen then there's very low levels that I can go to. But I'm totally comfortable with that. I've been there before. Kat: Right. Patrick: Be fun if ... I didn't think about that, you're right. But I have seen a couple of people do this before though. I saw one sell his, I saw one guy with line sell all of his shit and just start from scratch, you know. But I don't know how far he made it. I haven't seen him or heard from him in a long time. Patrick: You have the Demio webinar kids that created their own webinar software, and they did the same thing, and haven't heard from them in a while. So typically it hasn't worked out well for people that have, maybe like ... I guess what I'm saying I'm doing here is like how to just ... And I have been talking about it and walking it through the process of being honest about it, and saying that shit's getting fucked up. Patrick: I just gave Ryan back my car. You know what I'm saying? Like he had, when I worked for him, I'd had a fucking badass Maserati and everything like that. He'd let me use like a company car or whatever and I'd pay him the note on it and everything like that. It was nice and made me feel good. But I just went and gave it back to him. You know, so no car. Patrick: So, but I don't really need too much, where I really need a car anyway. I got my mind on, you know, bally at in about two months when my lease is up here. So you know, shit's going down. It is what it is. Fuck though. Kat: It's the all in thing. Patrick: Yeah, what's more important to me is the end treasure that's there. That I know is there, and that is there. I mean honestly, I'd rather have some different shit anyways. Kat: Exactly. It's just exactly like that meme you made with the plane flying off the cliff. Like, most people wouldn't be willing to go through it. Kat: Like the crazy thing, I used to wonder what is the worst thing that could possibly happen if I would run out of money, and if things didn't turn around, and it got down to where I had like, eight, nine cents in the bank. Then I would always end up making a few dollars to just, kind of keep my head above water. But sometimes I couldn't buy food, or anything like that. And it was always like, just can you get through that one day? And sometimes it was like, I think I'm gonna be done after this day. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: But I remember, I thought "Okay but what's the absolute worse case outcome?" And for me, it was move back in with my mom and dad. And I'm like, alright well that's not actually like the worst fucking thing in the world. I'm sure I'll start acting like a bratty teenager after like three days, 'cause that's what happens when I stay with my parents. But it's not gonna kill me. Kat: So then, it was kind of like acknowledging that I'm not gonna ... Like you're subconscious mind, or your nervous system is screaming at you that you're gonna die. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: And so that's why most entrepreneurs flake out. Because they can't handle the emotional pressure, and they can't handle the nervous system pressure. Having this nervous system response that says you're about to get eaten by a lion and a tiger. Like that's a hormonal response. Kat: When really, it's like if I totally hit rock bottom it would mean living with my mom. And then I would just get pissed about that and then I would go sell some shit. And either way, I'm gonna make it. Right? Patrick: Yeah. Kat: So then kind of go, oh why am I letting that shit get to me then? Like, can I get through today? Yes. Do I believe that I'm ultimately gonna make it? Yes. So, keep fucking going. But most people? Kat: That's why we say one percent within the one percent. Like I know for a fact, like only 0.001 percent would put themselves through what I went through emotionally. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: Or what you're going through now. Patrick: True. Yeah, and then you get stuff and you get so attached to the stuff that you're, that people get scared. And they're so secure, and they get scared to let it go. You know, and in order to get back to the big picture or to get to that next level. Patrick: But I think about the same thing you think too. I've been thinking of like options too. What's the worst that could happen to me? I'd have to go back down, 'cause I'm from the trailer park. So I have to go back down, and live with my dad. Patrick: You know, I'd have to go live with my dad. Which I also think, what's something that I would do as a very high level, once I make it? Once I'm living this fucking life of my dreams. You know what I'm saying? Once I'm like able to go and do anything, and live anywhere, and travel the world like I want to. Which is exactly what I'm gonna do no matter what, in three months when my lease is up. Patrick: I'm really just here because my lease, I have to stay here till this lease is out. You know, then I'm gonna get. Who knows, my lease might be fucked up. Sorry Travis, but he's on the lease with me. Patrick: But me and him are kind of like going hard together. He's on the same journey. And he's just pretty much like "fuck it". He's got into this as well. Riding on him doing well as well. So it's all good, it's not like I'm totally alone on this thing. It's always good to have a friend, but I think like "What's the worst thing that could happen?" Patrick: Right? And then it's just something like, if I went down to my dad's and had to stay down there for like a month. This is something that I would most likely, my higher version of myself. My higher level self who's achieved this, this is something that he would probably do. Anyways. Patrick: Maybe I'm having a good time overseas, and stuff like that. And I'm kinda like, missing the states a little bit, I'm want to just come back and chill with him for like a month. You know? Just post up and just see him for a month. It's probably just something I would do. Patrick: You know? Kat: Yeah right. Patrick: It's just something you would fucking do. Kat: I mean all the fear, reactions, and emotions it's all based on real shit. Like when money's not coming in, that's a true and real thing. But if you put that aside and you come back to what you know is true inside of you, like you fucking know who you are and that you're going wherever you want to go. And anything that you've ever decided to do in your life and you actually meant it, you have already achieved. Kat: And even like, what I said on that video today. Like you've literally helped people make millions of dollars? Patrick: Yup. Kat: And it's just continually putting aside your own ... Like for those who don't know, 'cause you might see this if you go to Patrick's sales page anyway, but it was Patrick's, not idea, but he helped me get out my idea. And actually express it properly, to launch my inner circle. Kat: And my inner circle clients know this. But that's like my highest level thing. I actually said in that video, that it makes hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then when I awoke I was like, hold on. It's on track for a million dollars per year, from one stream of income. Kat: And that was something I'd been trying to bring to fruition, actually since 2013. And I've had a few iterations of it, which just weren't right. And then I got gun shy because I felt like, I just don't fully know how to ... Like I know the vision of what I want, but I couldn't actually get it out of me. And we were sitting on the couch one time and I just was like "Man this is ... I kind of want this, but I don't know." Kat: And he's like typing away doing his thing, and he's like "Oh well you should just ..." I don't know, I wish I could remember what he said. But, blah blah blah blah blah, something something something. And I just remember sitting there going, "How the ... What? Yes, that's exactly it." Kat: It was like you read my thought. Like that's ... You've got the skills is what I'm saying. Right? Like you've helped make or build a business that makes five million dollars a year. These are, like I'm not just sitting here trying to talk you up. Kat: But it's more like, when you feel like "Well what if the worst happened?" Or "What if this or that?" It's like, wait. Look how much I'm already helping people and can help people. It's a done fucking deal. And you'll go through whatever you've got to go through. If you go through some short term period, alright you get rid of all your stuff and it's just you and the camp chair left, you'll probably be happier anyway. Kat: You'll have the freedom you want to move around the world. And like, it doesn't matter. None of it fucking matters. Whatever's going on right now. Like a year from now, you're gonna look back and be like "It was all worth it". Patrick: Yeah. Kat: And it'll be so worth it, because then you can help the people you were meant to help, because you can actually understand it. Like I can understand all that my clients are going through, 'cause I actually went through it. And I was prepared to go through it. Same thing. Patrick: I'm trying to like, enjoy it right now. That's my big goal. You know? Kat: Right. Patrick: I want to enjoy it right now. I want to savour this, and hold onto the moment. And hold onto these moments that I'm here, and learn as much as I can while I'm in these moments. You know? Patrick: Learn as possibly, as much as I possibly can. Experience and feel, and remember as much as I possibly can from these moments. 'Cause once I cross over the line, and it breaks open for me and you know people start buying my stuff then, you know. My big thing is like, how am I gonna feel after that happens? Patrick: You know, I'm gonna feel great. I'm gonna feel great, but I'm also gonna be transforming, I'm gonna also have transformed into something else. You know, and it's gonna be just ... I don't know. I don't know how I'm gonna deal with that. Patrick: That's one of my deep thoughts right there for you, if you will. So. Kat: I don't think you change. I don't know, like I don't think I've changed. Like my surroundings have changed. I don't think I'm any different to who I was years ago. I think you remember. Kat: But also because you are actually talking about it openly now you'll just be able to watch your own video advice. Patrick: Say again? Kat: Because you're actually talking about it while you're going through it, you're documenting it. So you're not gonna forget because you're gonna have the videos. Kat: But I don't think you forget. I don't forget any of that stuff. I can remember all the feelings and the emotions of it. And sometimes I think maybe I take having money for granted, or like the kind of [inaudible 00:23:00]. Kat: Like that I never look at prices anymore. Sometimes maybe I take it for granted, but not really. Because I do still, very frequently have moments where I'm like "holy shit", like is this even real? Like how is this possible, it's really only been, you know, a small handful of years since it seems like an impossible dream. But then I always .. Patrick: You've been doing this fucking shit for like 20 years. Kat: 20 years, how old do you think I am? Patrick: No, I'm saying like you been doing this since you were like 10. Since you were like one year old. Kat: One year old? Actually it was three. But, thank you. Patrick: There you go. Yeah. Rounding up. Kat: But I was making money, but I was not holding onto the money. I was in debt, and you know. I was bottoming out. I sold my house that I owned. And that like, make like 30 grand profit on that, and that just disappeared. And then I sold my Audi, which was like my first nice car, an Audi '04. And I loved that car so much, and that money disappeared. And then I sold my little Chinese share portfolio, that I had from my 20s when I was trying to get serious about wealth, and then that money disappeared. Kat: And then I was even trying to sell shit on Ebay, but back then I didn't have like Channel purses to sell on Ebay. I had things that I was selling for five dollars. But it was really like, every little dollar counted. And then I would go and buy groceries, and I'd get like 30 dollars worth of groceries and I would go through the checkout. And I would never just like, check my bank account because I couldn't handle the fear. Kat: So I'd just go through the checkout, and basically pray that the card would go through. And sometimes it would, and sometimes it wouldn't. And you just keep going one day at a time, but even though you'd feel like "what if it never works, and what if I'm crazy?" And what if, all the stuff that you think, that everyone thinks. Kat: But then when you put all that emotion aside, you go back into your core and you go "but I do fucking know though." Patrick: Right. Kat: Like when I get out of the drama, I know. Like I just fucking know. It's not up for discussion. I will keep picking myself back up again, until I get there. And then ... Kat: Now I'm so fucking grateful for all that. And I do remember so much of it. I'm so fucking grateful that it's over. But I'm so fucking grateful I went through it. Because it made me so strong. Like I feel like, I have such high levels of resilience and tenacity and those are some of the most important characteristics for us. For entrepreneurs. Patrick: Absolutely. And you know I think ... Kat: It is what you said. Like embracing it now. Patrick: Well, you know, the think is too, is that I say all this stuff to you and then you just make me think too, that like I've already been here before. And I already overcame. And I'm already pretty much hacked this stuff, you know. Just by being able ... Just like I remember the first time that I actually sold something. Because whenever I first started working with Ryan, it was like he found me. Patrick: 'Cause I quit my job at the car dealership right? Went through a bad breakup, and it just made me realise, fucking life isn't for me to be putting all my happiness ... It isn't meant for me putting all my happiness into somebody else. That's kind of what kick started, and had me first say "fuck it all". You know? Patrick: And so I quit my job at the car dealership. I just walked in and it ... This was such a big moment in my life. That I didn't even like, have the questioning or anything like that about that. There was nothing that would've made me stay there. You know? Kat: Yeah. Patrick: This is like such a earth shattering thing to happen to me. I guess I was like, I guess I must been about 26 or 27. And it was just, I had put all my chips into this thing, you know? And thought I was getting engaged and this stuff, and like that you know? And then it came crashing down. Patrick: And I found out she was married to some dude in prison. Long story short. But it was, I just put so much stock into this thing you know? And then it just fucking like, came crashing down. And that was when I first saw the reality, kind of like shift. You know? Patrick: And I saw this for what it is. And once I started like picking back up the pieces of everything, I just realised like, it's not supposed to be like this. You know? It's not supposed to be, to where I give other things power and control of me. Patrick: For example, job, security, things like that. And I really just, really, really saw that. Like about a week or two afterwards, you know, after we had called everything off, and everything like that. And I just remember it clear as day. I was just like, immediately started selling all my shit off. And started to trim up. And I started to figure out ways to get out of there. Patrick: I mean I was not gonna stay there very long, but I eventually, it just... fuck it ...

Drew is joined by Patrick Shanahan for another round of Tradecraft - this time featuring a tool for postcard marketing, and a chat app that reveals what your customers really want.Subscribe: iTunes | StitcherEXCLUSIVE RESOURCE: Prefer to read rather than listen? the text transcribe from this episode.HighlightsDrew is off to travel the world with family in tow, expect new episodes from sandy beaches and other exotic locales.A new emphasis on video contentA shopify app to trigger the sending of physical postcards to people in your databaseWho to make the target of your postcard marketingA chat app Patrick uses to get in touch with what his customers really wantHow to collect customer feedback into something actionableLinks / ResourcesMore Tradecraft in Episode 28 and Episode 30.PostPilot.comDriftTranscriptPrefer to read rather than listen to the podcast episode? No problem, you can and I will send it to you as a PDF. → Read the Transcript Drew: Everybody, welcome to the Nerd Marketing podcast. This is Drew Sanocki and I am joined today by Patrick Shanahan, my trade craft partner. How're you doing, Patrick? Patrick: Good, Drew. Nice to talk to you again.Drew: Today we're going to go over some tips and tricks, what we see working out there, what's helping us do our jobs better as online marketers. You've got a couple things, Patrick? Patrick: I do, I do. I've got one I'm quite pleased with, so I'm fired up to talk about it.Drew: I think people like these episodes. They like hearing what's working.Patrick: Yeah, they do. I mean, I've looked at your stats, they're the most downloaded so obviously it's working. So, you just come off your big talking circuit, I know you talked about that in the last episode, but you're about to go full vagabond. Hit the road. Want to tell us about that?Drew: Yeah, it's something really exciting my wife and I've wanted to do for a long time so next Saturday we're packing up, and we're going to the Caribbean, and we're not coming back to New York for probably six months. I think that we're not going to be in the Caribbean the entire time, but we'll do Central America, and Europe. We're taking the kids, obviously. We're really looking forward to it.I mean, we're stressed about the packing and getting everything done and we're trying to liquidate a lot of our personal belongings that we really don't care about or want to store, but with any luck it'll all come together by next Saturday when we're on that flight.Patrick: Amazing, amazing. I can't believe you're taking the kids. That's going to be an adventure, buddy.Drew: Yeah, we debated leaving them at home for six months, but we thought we should... we thought they'd miss us so we're going to take them with us.Patrick: Well, congratulations, that's amazing. And are you going to stay podcasting? Drew: No, I'm shutting down the podcast for six months. No, I'm going to... I'm going to keep podcasting, I'm going to do some video. A lot more video. Maybe not quite as much writing, the long form emails, they take up a lot of time, so I think I can try to move a little more into video and audio for the next six months.Patrick: There we go, so the future dispatches will be from sandy beaches and other places hither, and thither, and yon.Drew: Yeah, you know, I feel like I've got a lot of things I want to cover. We've been talking a lot about this concept of a cash flow business, or a lifestyle business, and we're just scratching the surface. We're talking about customer problems and brand, and there's a lot more I want to talk about on that and what I see working for you, Patrick, for me, at Nerd, and through my own consulting. So I want to share that on the podcast.And, really, I think video's going to be a great medium for that. So, maybe you'll see a lot more of me now that I'm leaving the country.Patrick: Maybe the best thing that every happened to the podcast, you actually have the time to focus on it and [inaudible 00:03:23].

Patrick Guest is an Australian children's author, Olympic physiotherapist, and father of three. He is most noted for his children's books That's What Wings Are For - dedicated to children with Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, and their parents, and The Ricker Racker Club, written for his boys when their baby sister joined the family. Find out more about Patrick's work at PatrickGuest.com.au. What you'll learn: 1. What Patrick's first career was, and why he gave it up for writing.2. The true story that inspired Patrick to write That's What Wings Are For.3. How The Ricker Racker Club is being used to touch and inspire school children in Melbourne, Australia. 4. What success means to him. FULL TRANSCRIPT Elizabeth: Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects authors, songwriters and poets with a global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-calibre guests, I invite you to go to iTunes, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. I’m delighted to introduce children’s author Patrick Guest (PG) – father of three, Olympic physiotherapist, children’s author. Patrick Guest – born into an ever loving, ever growing family, 7 siblings, in the beachside suburb of Seaford, Melbourne, Australia. Patrick was blessed with all the things that make a childhood magical – plenty of family, friends and freedom to explore this wonderful world. An assortment of careers along the way – cobbler, elephant washer, failed accountant, anatomy demonstrator at Monash Uni, national team physio for Mozambique. Little wonder he’s been dubbed the Forrest Gump of Frankston. Adventures and stories seem to follow him around and now he’s writing them down. 5 books, (signed with a little hair) in the past 2 years, many more in the pipeline. Patrick Guest, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Patrick: Great to be here, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Great to have you here, Patrick, on this lovely sunny day in Melbourne, believe it or not, we’ve got the sun. Patrick, we recently discovered we attended the same secondary college.  Patrick: We did. Elizabeth: I had to smile when I read you initially became an accountant. Please tell my listeners about that transgression - and how you escaped. Patrick: Ah, the transgression. Let’s start with that. Look. Fear, insecurity, there was a recession kicking in. But really I think, as a 17-year-old, having to work out what subjects to choose, I didn’t know how to make that decision at 17. Elizabeth: So you did Economics … is that right? Patrick: Economics, Accounting, Legal Studies, Maths. I was really probably inspired at that time by my favourite TV show, Family Ties – Michael J. Fox. Elizabeth: Wasn’t he great? He’s great. Still. Patrick: At the time, I think back now – what a dork he was – it probably says a lot about what a dork I was and still am. I thought he was cool. Elizabeth: He was funny, and you’re funny. Patrick: He was cool, and I thought “Who do I want to be like?”, and I thought “Michael J. Fox”. I went down the corporate path, which was a terrible decision. I don’t regret it – I made some friends for life, and I realized early on that money doesn’t make you happy. Elizabeth: It’s such an important lesson at that age, isn’t it, cause many people learn that quite late, if at all. Patrick: Yeah, so that’s something that has stayed with me, and I’m really grateful. Elizabeth: Was there a pivotal moment when you realized “This accounting thing is just not me”? Was there an incident? Patrick: There was. Elizabeth: Can you share that, or is that private? Patrick: No, no, let’s share this. It’s all about sharing in this session. So I’m walking down Flinders St Station, and I’m walking down in my suit and tie, down the ramp… Elizabeth: How old were you at the time? Patrick: It would have been in my first year out of graduation, maybe 22 or something. 21, 22. Walking down the ramp, with cattle class, just walking down, we were all off to work. Against the flow, this lady came through the crowd and just gently put her hand on me and said, “Smile!” Elizabeth: (Laughter) I promise you it wasn’t me. Patrick: She just said “Smile” and I’m walking down – I must have looked so miserable. Elizabeth: Was she an angel or a real person? Patrick: I don’t know. But I hear where you’re coming from there, because from that moment – and I blame Banjo Patterson – and maybe my dad for putting me onto Banjo. Elizabeth: Why? It’s good to blame other people, isn’t it? Patrick: My favourite Australian poem would be The Great Clancy of the Great Overflow… Elizabeth: Oh wonderful. Patrick: …And where Banjo writes: And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt me   As they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste, With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy,    For townsfolk have no time to grow, they have no time to waste.   So that poem was just ringing in my ears as I was off to the office sitting there, and from that moment I had come to the end of my fancy – I had a lot to change with Clancy. But I doubt he’d suit the office, Clancy of the Overflow. And for someone who had had that instilled in him, the spirit of adventure at a very young age, and parents – wonderful parents that had fostered that– and here I am in this shoebox, little partitioned office thing, and it just wasn’t for me. Elizabeth: Soul-destroying. Patrick: Soul-destroying. For some people it isn’t, and some of my best friends have continued along that path, and it’s a great path for them, but for me it wasn’t. Elizabeth: We need everybody, don’t we, the array of professions and tradespeople, everybody to do their bit. But you had much more important things in store, Patrick. Which brings me to – our school was really quite traditional in lots of ways, being a Catholic coed college, with all the gender bias that goes with that. And I remember going back to Economics, and I remember being one of the few girls in Chemistry and Economics, because it was always the boys who were going to be the accountants, and the girls were going to be teachers or nurses. And in fact I did go on to be a nurse, but I was very happy to do that. So to me in our school, there was a real gender bias. And you address this in your fantastic book, The Ricker Racker Club. Can you tell us more about this great book please? Patrick: The Ricker Racker Club is based on a real club, invented by real people: my two boys, Noah and Reuben. So Noah and Reuben were roughly 4 and 3 at the time when the Ricker Racker Club was formed. And there was one hard and fast rule: No Girls. (Laughter) There were a few other rules: do something incredibly brave, do something incredibly kind, but the real rock-solid rule was No Girls. And then what happened… Elizabeth: I’m sure that’s changed now. Patrick: …They had themselves a sister, little Gracie. Gracie was born, and really the story of The Ricker Racker Club is what happened next after Gracie. Now Gracie is perfectly named. She is pure grace, she is pure joy. She does have an intellectual disability, and her capacity for joy is extraordinary. And she would – as happens in the book – walk up to the wolf next door and give the wolf a big hug. Her courage, her kindness, her unique joy, won the boys over very quickly. They won us all over, and the story sprung from there. Really, it’s a celebration of the joys of being a kid, and the innocence of these rules. They’re not coming from a nasty place, these rules – just boys being boys. But then, just the power of kindness, if there’s one thing that runs through all my books, it’s the power of kindness… Elizabeth: Yes, definitely. Patrick: …to change hearts. So that’s how that happened. And really The Ricker Racker Club is about a father saying to his two sons, “Be good to your sister.” Elizabeth: And you do it so well, Patrick. Patrick: And so it’s done really well. Elizabeth: When did you know you wanted to be a writer? Patrick: From the moment I could write. So I started very young. I do remember a series, ‘Powerful Patrick’. And I must have been about 5 or 6. I was doing the pictures back then and I was stapling them together, making these little books. And I’m sure Mum and Dad delighted in them. But I’m not sure anyone else did. Elizabeth: Have you still got them? Patrick: I haven’t been able to find them. Elizabeth: Oh no. Patrick: I hope I can find them one day. Mum was always a little bit of a hoarder, so it’ll be somewhere in the house. They’re still in the same place I grew up in, so they’ll be somewhere in that house. So I’ve been a natural storyteller my whole life. The vehicle for that telling a story was just verbal stories and emails and love letters to Lisa my wife … I’ve always found a way to put things on paper. But certainly through the barren accounting years, then really trying to work out where my lane was that had been lying dormant, and then the birth of Noah – my first son, Noah – came a flood of stories and the desire to get these things down on paper. The rest is history. Elizabeth: What was it particularly about that event - the birth of Noah – that opened the floodgates, so to speak? Patrick: Well the birth itself…even before the birth I was starting to work on a book. But it’s, I think it’s just this natural, just as we have a desire to breathe, have food and water, a desire to be heard and understood, and then as a parent, it’s just this innate desire to share stories and to bond through stories. Elizabeth: Legacy. Patrick: Legacy. What my dad did was the same with me. My grandfather – I vividly remember my grandfather declaring over me that “You’re going to be an author one day.” Elizabeth: Oh wow. Did he write? Patrick: My grandfather, no. It was more my grandmother – she was a gifted storyteller. She kissed the Blarney Stone a few times, Ma, and... So it’s flowed through, that Blarney Stone – the kissing of the Blarney Stone gift has been passed through, through Grandmother to my dad. Elizabeth: We have a similar heritage then. Patrick There you go. And I can see it in my kids as well. Noah and Reuben, they love telling stories and they love hearing stories. So it’s been passed on for sure. Elizabeth: That’s fantastic. Can you advise all the aspiring writers out there how to get started, and more importantly, how to keep going? Patrick: How to get started… I can only speak, maybe quote Oscar Wilde: “Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.” So I can only speak from the authority of my own experience. I don’t have a technique or a tactic or a ritual that I go through. I pray. I pray, and one thing that I’ll say to people when asked this question – again I don’t want to get too preachy here – but if you want to get creative, it helps to get in touch with your Creator. That’s all I can say. That might be a bit controversial but for some ears, but that’s what works for me. I don’t get on my knees and say “God, give me another book!” Elizabeth: “Give me a bestseller or a …” Patrick: “Give me a bestseller!” What I actually do is I surrender my agenda. Elizabeth: So ego is left aside. Patrick: Ego is left aside, and any preconceived ideas are left aside. So I’m not sitting there going “Give me inspiration”. I’m giving myself out, and saying “Take away”. Elizabeth: Use me, as a conduit. Patrick: “Use me”, and if that’s to be the best barista in Mornington, or go back to my cobbling beginnings, or elephant-washing beginnings, so be it. So most of – no, really all of – my flashes of inspiration you could say… There’s that great poem by Rumi, Listening, where he says, “When that voice speaks, may I sell my tongue and buy a thousand ears.” So when I’m hearing that voice, that is always followed by a period of prayerfulness or meditation which just opens up that creativity. Sounds easy. I know when I hear that voice, and I sell my tongue, I know that there’s a double emotion. Joy, and dread. Because I know that I’m in for some hard work. Elizabeth: ‘Cause writing can be hard work, can’t it. And the discipline that’s required – and you know you may not particularly feel like writing that day – but you have to put one foot in front of the other and keep going. Patrick: Yes, so back to the question, which was “How do we keep going?” How do we start? For me, I don’t really start until I’ve heard the voice, I’ve heard that voice, I’ve heard that spark of inspiration. How do I keep going? I know that I won’t have peace until it’s done. So I’m listening to that voice but I also know that it’s a collaboration after that. So I’m seeking opportunities to get it on paper or get it onto the computer. And they are taken in the busyness of my life with 3 young kids and a fulltime job as a physio. I have to be creative just to find that time. So often it’s my wonderful patients – patient patients – lying on the physio plinth – and I’ll just seek an opportunity to say, “Now that you’ve got all those needles all over you, there’s no way to run out of here. Would you mind listening to my latest? What do you think of it?” Elizabeth: Do they come back for another appointment after that, Patrick? Patrick: Normally they do. I don’t think I’ve managed to scare anyone off yet. Elizabeth: I might need to book for a session. Do I have to have a needle? Patrick: Not always, but it does – has that influence on my clinical judgment. Might be, if I’m honest. But I call it ‘bibliotherapy’. That works well, so I’m looking for opportunity. Sometimes I’ll pull the car over and send myself a text message for a sentence. Or middle of the night, off to the computer, or scribbling in bed on a bit of paper. I don’t have a routine about how to get these things down. Elizabeth: 2 a.m. is a common time for me to receive a sentence too. Patrick: In the shower can be a good place – you can scratch it into the wall, into the mist, write it down, whatever it is. But I’m in the posture of seeking the opportunity to find that time to write that down once I’ve heard that voice. Elizabeth: Can we talk about your work – who you work with, the wonderful men and women that you care for? Can we talk about that? Patrick: Yes, so 2 days a week, I work at the medical centre at Victoria Barracks, which is a service based in Melbourne. They are wonderful, so when I first started working for the military, I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder about war and the work of the military. Elizabeth: In what way? Patrick: I’d been a bit of a hippie, a bit of a peace lover, a bit biased against the war machine, or whether it’s a valuable service that the Army and Navy and Air Force offer. And then you get to meet these people and hear their stories. Elizabeth: Amazing. Patrick: Amazing, the sacrifice made. I see the plague of PTSD is becoming more public or known as an extension of the epidemic of general mental health problems in the world. As a physio you get a front row seat really, and you get the rare – it’s a real privilege to offer probably two of the greatest needs of the human being: to be heard and understood, and to be touched. Elizabeth: Yes. Beautiful. Patrick: To be touched. There aren’t many mainstream medical professionals that offer both. So as a physio you’re in a really good place and space to offer that service and in that way to gather stories. So in that way it does feed into the other half of my career, which is becoming more than half really, the writing side of things, and the gathering of stories from the confessional plinth is part of that, and the sharing of stories is part of that. Elizabeth: They’re exceptionally lucky to have you. Patrick: Goes both ways. Elizabeth: You’ve had wonderful success with your book sales. What does success mean to you? Patrick: About three bucks fifty? (Laughter) So I remember when my amazing editor and publisher Margrete Lamond sat me down – we met face to face for the first time – she’s based in New South Wales – one of her first pieces of advice was “Don’t give up your day job!” Elizabeth: I’ve had the same advice before. Patrick: So in terms of success it’s been humbling and mind-blowing to think that That’s What Wings Are For – my first book – has cracked the magical 10,000 books sold in Australia within 6 months. Elizabeth: Wow. Congratulations. That’s wonderful. Patrick: So now we’re into our second year of sales. I’m not sure where we’re up to now, but has been picked up internationally and translated internationally to Chinese and Korean and several other languages. What does it mean to me? It means that – it gives me a voice, a chance to talk to your lovely self, and to visit schools. I love that side of being a writer. Most writers are more comfortable in a darkened room tapping away. To my surprise, I was a very reluctant public speaker but I absolutely love going out to the schools. On Wednesday, I had a full school assembly, hundreds of kids there, and the audience and ability to speak and share… Elizabeth: ‘Cause you make that fun, don’t you. We’re just going back to The Ricker Racker Club for a moment, and can we know how you make that fun for the kids? ‘Cause the parents listening there would be really interested – we know we’re there to do hard work but school can be fun as well. So how do you make it fun for them, Patrick? Patrick: Well, The Ricker Racker Club – I invite everyone to join this very exclusive club, The Ricker Racker Club, IF they pass the test. So I read the story, but along the way we pause and issue challenges to the members of the audience to come up on behalf of the whole school, see if they can pass this test. So we follow the story. And one of the characters is Max, and in the first week he sticks his head into the fox’s hole. So I make up a little fox’s hole, and find a willing kid to stick his head into this fox’s hole. The whole school are counting 20 seconds and I bring out this little stuffed fox. So the poor kid doesn’t know I’m tiptoeing up behind him and “Raaaahhh!” Elizabeth: (Laughter) Do you get a lot of screams? Patrick: We get a few of those, and then the villain of the book is this wolf next door, which is based on a great German Shepherd that lived next door to me, and I have the scar to prove, the moment the basketball flew over the fence. I rescued the basketball – and Chance (the dog’s name was Chance) – got me. And so the wolf next door – it would normally have a wolf suit – and it’s normally the PE teacher who dresses up as a wolf. Elizabeth: Would you go to our school? They’d love you. Patrick: I’d love to. Elizabeth: Ours is a service school, so you’ll like it. Ours is a service school, so we have a lot of service families that go to... Nice connection for you. Patrick: I’d love to come out. Absolutely. So the kids build up and up and at the end, “Who wants to join this club?” “Yeah!” “Who wants to learn the secret password?” “Yeah!” So I force it down a little and say, “Unfortunately you haven’t done quite enough yet.” Elizabeth: (Laughter) Oh my, the kids will go “Oh what?” Patrick: So it’s a case of “Do not put up your hand, do not raise your hand, unless you are extremely brave.” All the hands go up. “I mean it, I’m warning you now – extremely brave.” Elizabeth: What age group are we looking at, with the hands going up? Patrick: Prep, all the way to 6. Elizabeth: The whole school, wow. Patrick: At this point, some of the Grade 6s I can tell – folded their arms; it’s a bit babyish for them. So picture it: I do target them a bit at this point. So I’ll normally look for the guy who’s lost interest – the kid can be too cool for school here. And I’ll grab this fellow and bring him up. “So on behalf of the school, let’s talk about Courage. Courage comes in many forms. You’ve already demonstrated Courage by standing up in front of the whole school. But Courage comes in many forms. The courage to make a mistake when you know it’s going to get you in trouble. You’re scared of something. And then there’s taste buds. So we go back to Week 3, if you were listening, what did Zack do in Week 3?” And he’ll say “I’m sorry, I can’t remember.” Again in a loud voice, “What did Zack do in Week 3?” And you get the book out again: Zack drank a tomato sauce milkshake. At this point I’m standing behind him with milk, and then I bring out the tomato sauce. And what’s he do now? At this point he’s shaking his head ‘no’. And the school have already started the chant without encouragement: “Drink! Drink! Drink! Drink!” So I make this milkshake, this foaming tomato sauce milkshake… Elizabeth: Oh no. Patrick: And I pause again and say “Unfortunately my friend, Zack did that for one person. You’re doing it for 700 people right now. That’s not enough. So I look around – I shop for the largest Brussel sprout I can find. And I bring out this Brussel sprout, drop it into the tomato sauce milkshake, and present it to this fellow. Elizabeth: Poor kid. Patrick: The poor kid. Originally, I used this – it occurred to me that this is peer group pressure of the highest order. So I now use this as an opportunity for this poor unfortunate kid to – they’re saying no at this point – I really esteem that courage. I say “Look, you have done something extraordinarily brave. Everyone here at some point is going to face a baying crowd of people saying ‘Drink! Drink!’ or whatever. Elizabeth: That’s so clever, Patrick. Patrick: And to say no in the face of that, is true Courage. So I give him a round of applause and he sits down. “Now who wants to be a legend?” (Laughter) So someone else comes up. Or I’ll turn it into the “What would the kind person do now?” Or even better. “Maybe there’s a teacher in the audience…” Elizabeth: So what I’ll do is I’ll leave it there, because if the school listens to that one they won’t book you. I will leave them in suspense. When I first read That’s What Wings Are For, I was sitting in a coffee shop, with tears rolling down my cheeks. The other patrons respectfully averted their eyes. And you know you’ve found a great book when so much emotion is ... Can you please tell us about your inspiration for That’s What Wings Are For? Patrick: So That’s What Wings Are For … Maybe I can mention one of my favourite poems of all time, which is The Hound of Heaven. The Hound of Heaven, for those who don’t know, written more than a hundred years ago by a homeless opium addict in London, Francis Thompson. So he was asking the big question: how could a loving God allow such suffering in the world, and particularly in his own life? And the penny starts to drop about halfway through. He says maybe, just maybe, You allow us in Your love to burn and burn until we become charcoal, and You pick us up and You create Your masterpiece. So That’s What Wings Are For – I’m not calling it a masterpiece – it certainly came from a burning charcoal in process. And that process was the great sadness in my life. My son Noah has Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, which is a devastating condition that involves the wasting of muscles. And the heart’s a muscle, and it’s a devastating disease. So in light of that I was asked to write a book about a certain blue dragon Bluey, who is the mascot for all the families affected by this devastating disease. So I was working on another book at the time, and I was asked to write this book. And I jumped at the chance, but I also knew there was a heavy responsibility writing that. So really you can look globally at that and look at the whole community impacted by that, but really it was a love letter from a father to a son. Elizabeth: Beautiful. Patrick: And that’s how it was written, and that is something I do say when I go out to the schools. You’ve heard Ricker Racker – it’s quite a boisterous, joyous occasion. When I go out to talk about That’s What Wings Are For, I basically start off in a fun way, and then I bring it back sharply and I say, I bring out Bluey, the actual mascot, a blue plush teddy, and I say “I actually met Bluey on the worst day of my life.” And to have a school go from being quite boisterous, and the teachers go “Shh! Shh! Shh!” to your pin drop in one sentence… Elizabeth: Wow, that’s powerful. Patrick: They get it. They get it. From the preppies all the way up to the Grade 6s, they get it, and there’s a real reverence suddenly about the book and why it was written. And then I explain what’s happened from there and we go from there. I still struggle to read it without crying, but they are tears of – what will I say - I heard this line yesterday – “what we sow with tears, we reap with shouts of joy”. And there’s something joyous – it’s bigger than me, this thing. It’s bigger than me. Elizabeth: What you’ve created is magnificent. Patrick: Thank you. Elizabeth: You’re welcome. You mentioned in an interview that 80% of That’s What Wings Are For was written over breakfast with your family, and then one sentence that brought tears to your eyes took you 3 months to write. Can you please share that sentence with my listeners and what it was that finally led you to discover the sentence that made you cry? Patrick: What it was was my incredible ego. I just – it went to my head. The idea of being a published author and all this went absolutely to my head. Elizabeth: Well you are only human after all. (Laughter) Patrick: Well, I’m sitting back there, I’m imagining red carpets, imagining walking up the stairs. It was shocking! And here I am, I’ve written a book for my sick kid, and my ego’s having a field day. At this point I hadn’t even had the manuscript finished… Elizabeth: You were strutting around… Patrick: It was appalling. I’m embarrassed about it, at the way I was carrying on in my head anyway. So we needed – Bluey needed a reason to be doing what he did ultimately, which is find a reason for his wings. And I was trying all these sentences about sending him off to Margrete, and very gently and respectfully she would be saying “That is rubbish.” (Laughter) Elizabeth: Thanks Margrete. She just knew there was more to you – she knows how deep you are. Patrick: She knew how to push the buttons and what’s right. And equally my wife Lisa as well. And more so my wife Lisa, she has a great ability to tell me when I’m writing something that’s rubbish - and good as well. Elizabeth: Good. Patrick: So the to-ing and fro-ing went on for months. And then I had this moment of “You complete goose! What are you doing?” And certainly at that moment I decided that every cent from this book would be given to charity, which it always should have been anyway, and I made that decision, and entered some prayer and reflection, and within really minutes of making that decision – within minutes – I was given this sentence. And I have to set the context of that time. And at the time we had a crudely termed … we called it a ‘year of adventure’ – you could call it a bucket list, and we were doing all sorts of things around the world. So the sentence – Bluey was coming back from the Royal Children’s Hospital. It was broadened to be a magical building filled with magical creatures with all sorts of ailments. So at that moment when Bluey looks out, and when I’m reading the story to the school, I’ll have people close their eyes and put their hands on their hearts, and feel. Elizabeth: Which I’m going to do now. Patrick: And if you keep feeling, you’ll feel something. You may not feel it straightaway, but if you keep trying, you’ll get there. You’ll feel something warm and fuzzy. And that feeling has a name; it has lots of names. Kindness, and hope, and love, and what happens – and at this moment, Bluey looks across, and I share this sentence: “Bluey saw the boy’s soft, floppy legs, and at that moment, something happened in Bluey’s heart. He stopped for that moment thinking so much about his own situation, and he looked inward. He looked out, and saw this boy sharing a similar path. That word ‘empathy’. That changed everything for Bluey; it helped him work out what his wings were for.” So we go on from there. Elizabeth: Beautiful. That compassion for another person. The author-illustrator relationship is such a pivotal one. Can you describe what is important to you in such a relationship? Patrick: Respect, and trust, and space. So ‘let there be space in your togetherness’. Certainly for the first two books – the first one, Daniella Germain, extraordinary talent. And then the same with Nathanial Eckstrom, rising superstar of the illustration world. So first book, I had no contact at all with Daniella until after all the illustrations were done. Had no input into the illustrations at all. So in terms of relationship, it’s one of trust. Slightly different with the second book – some feedback. Poor Nathanial, I saw his amazing illustrations, but – and it was amazing that he managed to draw my 3 kids without having seen a photo of them, quite accurately – except for Gracie wears glasses. And I just politely asked whether he might pop glasses on Poppy (Gracie is named Poppy in the book). So he went back and put glasses on. Then I had a look at that and thought, “No. Makes her look too old now. Can you take the glasses off?” So that was a bit of a diva moment for me, I suppose. But other than that it really is letting go and not being too precious and trusting in the selection of the illustrator – that’s up to the publisher – and I trust Margrete to make that decision, and she hasn’t failed me yet. I know how she is with me with the words, and she’s that way again with the illustrator. Elizabeth: What a wonderful person to find! Patrick: She is great, she’s fantastic. Elizabeth: What are you working on at the moment? Patrick: Well, the undercurrent to all the picture books that have been picked up in the last couple of years has been a novel for children called The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle, and I’ve been working on the story for more than 10 years. And it comes and goes, and then another idea overrides that. But I keep coming back to The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle. That is lying dormant again, but I know I will go back to that, so there’s always that in the background. That story is the story of an old man who loves to tell stories. And he has this great secret. Great secret, that he's burning with this secret, to share it with his grandson Arthur. Long story short, he gets invited to the World Storytelling Competition in Marrakesh, Morocco, up against the greats of storytelling. Professor Chinwag from China, Lord Blabbermouth from England. I won’t give too much away, but he makes it to the final and he tells this great secret, but the secret is revealed slowly as the story goes along. Elizabeth: Suspense right through… Patrick: Right through. It has been a lot of hard work, also joy, and I have a sense that one day it will happen. I’ve also recently finished another picture book manuscript that is very, very dear to my heart, called Tiny Dancer. Elizabeth: The Elton John song. Patrick: The Elton John song, so hopefully Sir Elton will approve, and that’s really dear to my heart, and I’m in an acquisitions meeting on that one. And we’re in the process of illustrating and that process does involve some word changes. My next release which will be next year, I thought that was going to be a book called The Second Sky. It sounds like – based on this week’s emails – it sounds like it will be called Rabby the Brave. Elizabeth: You’re just prolific – you’re pounding on aren’t you, one after the other. Patrick: Look, it’s been a blessed couple of years. There’s been a very rich vein of inspiration and creativity that’s happening at the moment. Really grateful. Elizabeth: We’re very, very pleased too, I must say. Can’t wait to read them. What do you like to do in your spare time to unwind from all this work you’re doing – the physio work with the military, your family, and all this wonderful writing you’re doing? What do you do to unwind? Patrick: I’m clinging to my childhood in terms of chasing a bouncy ball around. I still play basketball. There’s a competition going on in Victoria Barracks actually, so at the ripe old age of 45, I’m taking on the burly soldiers, I’m taking on the burly soldiers in this basketball competition. Elizabeth: Well you have to keep up on being brave. (Laughter) Patrick: I love it. I must say I’m shamelessly, every goal I score – there aren’t many of them – I’m celebrating them like they could be my last. So there’s the fist pump and the whooping after every goal I score. And would you believe I’m still sort of – don’t let Lisa know but I’m still playing football. Full contact. There’s a wonderful competition – Reclink, midweek, battlers’ competition. You may have heard of the Choir of Hard Knocks – Reclink was spawned from it and there’s a football league for battlers, whether it be homeless refugees or people battling addiction. So we’ve set up a team in Frankston, and I’ve been the … Elizabeth: You are brave. (Laughter) Patrick: Madness, absolute madness. And so I’ve been the physio, the chaplain, the halfback flank and the water boy, whatever goes on, whatever’s needed for that team. And there’s just something primal about playing Australian Rules football that I just can’t let go of. And if I ever get the chance, I’ll go out surfing as well. Elizabeth: Isn’t it great to tap into that raw energy and just let yourself go? Patrick: It is. With surfing, it’s one of the few pastimes or sports where you spend 95% of the time staring at the horizon. So you get a chance to unwind – then it goes from the serenity to scrambling for your life. It’s great. Elizabeth: It’s a bit of a metaphor, isn’t it? Patrick: It’s great. Yes, so those are the 3 main things. Elizabeth: Do you want to remain in the children’s book genre? Patrick: Absolutely. Maybe one day a book for grownups, but certainly at the moment I’m loving – when you write a picture book, you are writing for grownups – you’re writing for two generations. Elizabeth: It’s that connection, I think, with parent-child. It’s so special. And you both learn so much when you’re reading together. Patrick: Absolutely. And I’ve been trying to make the transition from picture books into early readers, and I’ve found that quite hard. I might have to leapfrog that and go into older early readers. Because to go from a picture book to an early reader is – you got to dumb it down. You really have to dumb it down. That’s a crude way of saying it, but you do. There are certain concepts you have to avoid, and using poetry or metaphors is a bit more tricky. So maybe that’s not for me, that niche. So certainly The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle is for an older reader, an older young reader. And then the picture books as well. I might stick to those, to genres within the broader children’s book genre for now. We’ll see what happens after. Elizabeth: You’re so insightful. Because you haven’t actually studied Creative Writing or completed a formal uni degree in writing, and yet your knowledge is so vast. Is you’re your intuition at play again, do you think? Patrick: Not sure. I think it’s a blessing. Don’t want to use the word ‘gift’, but I think it’s nothing to be proud of if it’s a gift. Elizabeth: I really have to disagree, because so many people are given, receive gifts, it’s then what you do with that gift. And so many people do not do anything with what they’ve been blessed with. I do think you can claim that proudly and whoop, like on a footy field. (Laughter) Patrick: Maybe. I do love whooping when there’s a sense of victory, a sense of accomplishment – once you finish that manuscript, submit to send, and you know it’s off, and have such a beautiful relationship with Margrete. I should mention Alyson O’Brien, who is also with Little Hare – I’m increasingly involved with her. I know that they will read it and give it the full attention and get back to me quite quickly, so that agonizing wait has been reduced to, in some cases, a few hours now, which is great. Elizabeth: It’s cause you’re so clever, and they know it. Do you have a website or blog, Patrick, that my listeners can go to find out more about your wonderful work? Patrick: Yes, there’s a shiny new website, “Patrick Guest dot com dot au”. I know nothing about the technical side of websites, and a great friend of mine, Jeffrey County, has helped set that up, and it’s sparkling. Elizabeth: Aren’t tech people great? I’m not one of those. Patrick: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. There’s no way I could do that. So that’s up and running now, so there’s opportunity to email me and contact me through that. Happy to do that. Elizabeth: Patrick, this is a signature question that I ask all my guests. What do you wish for, for the world, and most importantly, for yourself? Patrick: That’s a big one. Look, the first thing that springs to mind is a cure for Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy. Elizabeth: I’m with you. Patrick: That would be the first thing. But if I thought more about it, more broadly… Maybe I could go back to Ernie Pigwinkle, The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle. So I’ll give away a little bit, so we get to the end of the story. We’re at the World Storytelling Championships, so Ernie, this old man from Ballarat, has made the final and won, thanks to his grandson. So the secret starts off as “Do you know why dogs wag their tails?” We move on from there to “Why dogs and cats fight – the origins of war”. Then he finishes with a little song, a little poem he says to the world: It’s a war that’s continued to this very day. It’s a shame that Dog and Cat couldn’t think of a way To listen and learn and be understood, And love one another as all of us could. You don’t have to carry on like a dog or a cat. You’re not a baboon or as blind as a bat. There’s a heart in your chest and a brain in your head. So before you lose faith, hold on instead. Hold on to your faith in the goodness of others. Never give up on your sisters and brothers. You’ll see for yourself, as sure as the sun, That there’s something worth loving in everyone. He says that. Elizabeth: I need a box of tissues. [Laughter] Oh Patrick, my goodness, that’s so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Patrick: That’s the world premiere of The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle and… Elizabeth: What a coup on Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Wow, Patrick! Superb. Patrick Guest, thank you so much for joining me on “Writers Tete-a-Tete with Elizabeth Harris”. We look forward to more of your stunning work. I totally agree with you: hugging is what wings are for. Thanks for tuning in everyone, and may your wishes come true. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Episode 126: Middle School Theatre in a Rural Community Patrick Derksen works in a school with 200 students. In total. He's a grade eight classroom teacher and playwright who decided five years ago to make theatre with his students. Find out how he does it, why he thinks theatre is important in middle school and his advice for other rural teachers wanting to do the same. Show Notes A Lighter Shade of Noir   Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP – The Theatrefolk Podcast – the place to be for Drama teachers, Drama students, and theatre educators everywhere. I'm Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello! I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. You have reached Episode 126 and you can find any links for this episode in the show notes at theatrefolk.com/episode126. Okay. So, Patrick Derksen, he works in a school – a rural school that has 200 total students. So, that's it; that's from kindergarten all the way up to Grade 8. He's a Grade 8 classroom teacher and he's also a playwright. We have his play, A Lighter Shade of Noir. Five years ago, he started putting up plays with his students. Just like that, he made a choice to include theatre at the middle school level, and I just think that it's always a fascinating choice when something didn't exist before and now it does, and let's hear why he made that choice and how he has developed it. LINDSAY: All right. Hello everybody! I am sitting here today with author and teacher, Patrick Derksen. Hello, Patrick! PATRICK: Hello! LINDSAY: Hi! So, Patrick is one of our Theatrefolk playwrights. He has a play with us called A Lighter Shade of Noir which I absolutely adore. It makes me laugh. The sign of a good comedy for me – because, when we read these plays, Patrick, there's so many times we have to read them from the first initial read to going through numerous proofs to seeing it published and the sign of a good comedy for me is I just giggle every time I look at this play. You are also a middle school teacher. PATRICK: Yes, primarily. LINDSAY: Primarily. That's the main gig. PATRICK: That's the main gig. LINDSAY: And how long have you been a middle school teacher? PATRICK: This is about ten years now, I guess, yeah. I had the ten-year award. LINDSAY: You got the pin. PATRICK: I'm like, “Really? Ten years already?” Time flies! LINDSAY: Absolutely! And so, why middle school? Why is that where you sort of hang your hat? PATRICK: Originally, I'd planned to be a high school teacher, I guess. But then, things took me to a middle school and I found out that I loved it. I love the kids and I love the staff. It's kind of a whole different ballgame. In middle school, you've got to think on your feet a little bit more and go with the flow and it's great. LINDSAY: It's really funny because I think you have to have that very specific mentality to relate to middle school students. PATRICK: Yes. LINDSAY: What about them is the most fun to teach? PATRICK: Yeah, like I said, I think just the fact that they're coming out of the learning ABC's kind of thing and then you can really start to work with them and take them into territory that is new for them and, yeah, it's just a fun, fun age to see them coming in that and they're still eager – unlike maybe some high school students. LINDSAY: And what do you think is the most frustrating? PATRICK: Well, when it comes to drama, they're starting at ground zero, right? LINDSAY: Ah. PATRICK: There's no knowledge at all and how it all works. So, like, probably three-quarters of the kids that I have in my plays are starting with no experience whatsoever, and then the rest start coming with a little bit of stuff from church and community theatre, but it's learning the very basics. So, those kinds of things like, you know, face the audience, speak louder, all those things I guess would be the frustrating part of it,

Patrick and Anthony sit down for what seems like AGES! Patrick shows his nephew how to start fire with a magnifying glass and Anthony discusses his adventures into starting a […] The post #159 – Tech with Patrick – There's No Bigfoot appeared first on A Shanty No Lemon / Gay Comedy Podcast / This Week In Gay.