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In this episode of Building Texas Business, I learned valuable lessons from Patrick Terry, founder of the popular Austin-based restaurant chain P Terry's Burger Stand. Patrick explains how the company's success has been centered around its commitment to natural ingredients, competitive pricing, and exceptional customer and employee care. We explored the challenges of maintaining price discipline amidst rising costs and inflation, including during the COVID-19 pandemic. Patrick also shared insights from his origin story, hiring practices that bring on passionate individuals, and the importance of company culture. He also touched on the strategic considerations that underpin P Terry's expansion plans into new markets like Houston and the employee support programs in place. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed the inception of P Terry's Burger Stand in 2005 with founder Patrick Terry, focusing on their strategy of using high-quality, natural ingredients at competitive prices to differentiate from fast food giants like McDonald's and Starbucks. Patrick emphasized the importance of customer feedback and employee well-being in ensuring operational efficiency and customer satisfaction, without relying heavily on marketing or advertising. We explored the challenges of maintaining pricing discipline amidst inflation and supply chain disruptions, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic, and how P Terry's managed to outperform competitors with consistent pricing strategies. Patrick shared the origin story of P Terry's, highlighting their commitment to quality food and a strategic hiring process that prioritizes employees' passion for the restaurant business. The unique approach to food preparation at P Terry's through their own commissary was discussed, showcasing how it helps maintain quality and cost control, along with their plans for expansion into Houston. We delved into the significance of company culture and employee care, including P Terry's innovative non-interest loan program for staff in financial need, as a means to foster loyalty and engagement. Patrick recounted the emotional journey of running the business, his brief hiatus from leadership in 2019, and the decision to reengage with renewed vigor, underscoring the importance of leadership in maintaining company culture. The strategic expansion from Austin to San Antonio and the considerations involved, such as logistical feasibility and location selection based on cost and accessibility, were discussed. We highlighted the balance between choosing affordable locations and ensuring they are accessible to customers, using demographic trends and growth areas to inform business decisions. Patrick shared personal anecdotes, including his early entrepreneurial ventures and the cultural philosophy at P Terry's, emphasizing the importance of setting high standards and leading by example. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About P.Terry's GUESTS Patrick TerryAbout Patrick TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Patrick Terry, founder and owner of P Terry's Burger Stand. Patrick attributes the success of P Terry's to two fundamental strategies First, work hard and listen to your customer. And second, take care of your people and they will take care of your customer. Patrick, I want to thank you for coming on Texas building Texas business and it's just a pleasure to have you on as a guest. Patrick: Well, thanks, I'm honored to be here. I really am. Chris: So I think the first place to start is for you just to tell us, those that don't know of P Terry's, what is P Terry's and kind of. What are you known for? Patrick: Well, so my wife and I started P Terry's 2005. So we'll be celebrating our 20th anniversary next month, next year, and the idea behind it we sell we're a quick service hamburger stand, and the idea behind it was if we were going to compete with, you know, the giants in the industry the McDonald's and the Burger Kings and the Jack in the Boxes and the Chick-fil-A's you know everybody. You know we're going to have to find a way to be different and you know I talk about so often. People want to get into business and they find a retail store or a restaurant or a concept that they like and they go across the street and pretty much do the same thing as the guy that they liked. And when you do that, all you've done in a best case scenario, is you take half his business. It's pretty hard to take all of his business. If you're going to do the same thing, then you're going up against the fact that he's established. Clearly he's doing okay because you liked it and he's there. And so I think that's the biggest mistake new business owners and entrepreneurs make is they like a yogurt stand and they go across the street and they do the same yogurt stand. And so, all that said we were going to be different, and where we were going to be different was that we were going to offer the quality beef and the food that we serve is really that of an upscale restaurant, to be honest and we were going to do it through a drive-thru and a dine-in at a fast food restaurant, but we weren't. Because of that, we weren't, of course, able to charge any more than the fast food guy across the street, so what we were trying to do was make ourselves bulletproof. We were going to offer a quality product that you couldn't get at a fast food restaurant at a price that was the same as the guy across the street that wasn't serving that quality food. And obviously, if you're able to pull that off, it's a huge advantage. And by doing so what we did, we established right away that we were going to look for a fair profit, and that was what it was going to be. And so if I could sell an order of French fries and I might be able to get $2.50 for that order of French fries, I looked at the cost and I'm thinking well, actually, my overall cost of goods, I only have to sell those franchise at $2.15. We have very low overhead. We have a small office with a G&A under 6% and we work hard and we work smart and we don't spend money on marketing or advertising. We don't have that luxury. We don't pay, of course, any franchise fees because we own the business. And so we were able to pull it off. And so we serve a black Angus, all natural beef, and what that means is it's antibiotic free, it's hormone free, it's a vegetarian fed, it's a pure beef. I mean it really is a great product. We serve the same thing with a hormone-free chicken. And you know, our buns don't have high fructose corn syrup. Our potatoes come from Idaho and they're fresh and they're cooked in a canola oil which doesn't have any hydrogenated oils. I mean, we literally just went down the line and said, okay, this is what we're going to do. Now we're going to have to make it work and by keeping our costs down and, frankly, working really hard, really hard with a lot of smart people, we were able to pull it off. We opened up our 34th store two weeks ago in Cibolo, outside of San Antonio, and, as you know, we're on our way to Houston. We have our first Houston location in Richmond I believe it is in October, and we're going to have five. We plan for five Houston locations. One of the other things that we do that makes this unique is that we have our own commissary. We cook we do a lot of cooking and for our restaurants ourselves, so we bake our own banana bread, we bake our own cookies from scratch, we make our own veggie burgers from scratch. We take chicken breast all chicken breast, boneless, skinless breast and we actually grind it into a patty for a chicken burger and for our chicken bites. And all that's done in the commissary by our own staff. We share the offices, share a space with the commissary, and every morning three or four trucks go out and deliver that product to the stands, and so we're able to keep our costs down by doing that as well. We pretty much just take charge of everything we do, yeah and that's what separated us. Chris: Well, it sounds like what I'm hearing is a very focused, you know thought into what you wanted this business to be and I guess what you didn't want it to be. So you know what I heard you talk about is, you know, obviously very cost conscious, so that you could be profitable, but also singular, focused on this. You know premium quality food at a lower price point and you know really it sounds like in the beginning, very focused on what profit margins would look like, what your cost of goods would be. Before you even opened a store it seems like. Patrick: Yeah, and I don't want to make it sound like we're smarter than we are, because a lot of that stuff just you know fortunately just works itself out. Now where it got tricky is when COVID hit and the supply chain issues and the inflation that we've seen and where we've benefited from that is by having always done what we've done in the last 19 years and everyone's read about. You know the McDonald's Big Mac combo meal. It's for $16 in Idaho and you know McDonald's are great operators. So I got nothing bad to say. But every time you take a price increase if you're not looking over your shoulder when you do that if you're not conscious of? am I really doing everything I can before I go up on this price? Patrick: way I can make this a nickel instead of a diamond. Unless you've done that from the start, you find yourself taking price increases to cover up mistakes or issues of the day, and it becomes this band-aid that's very hard to take off, right. Chris: We've seen that in your industry right, where the classic pass it on to the consumer, and then in the fast food wars just over the recent months, the consumers rebelling. Patrick: Absolutely, absolutely. And so when you know Starbucks and McDonald's show, you know negative comp store sales, last quarter, for the first time since you know COVID hit, we were up 8% in our compor sales. And because, frankly, when you take our strategy and you stick with it and the hard part is sticking with it it's really easy to look around and go, man, that guy over there he's getting six bucks for that burger and I'm only getting five. I could probably go up a quarter and that's the illusion, right, you get into that game and there's a mind game and if you're able to keep pushing that off and, trust me, it's a hell of a lot easier going up a quarter. When you're able to pull that off, then you don't go down that rabbit hole and find yourself in a situation where so many of our competitors have found themselves. I mean, I look around and see what similar pricing is, I mean what similar menu items are and what the pricing of our competitors are, and I'm astounded. I mean there are some of our competitors are 20 percent higher than we are on their menu, and you know we're all serving food out of a drive-thru and so it's a dangerous game. It really is. And so I think that I think you've hit on it exactly the way it is, it's a discipline and it's every day. Chris: Yeah, well, that's what Jim Collins talks about in Good to Great. You know, discipline, people with disciplined thought and disciplined action is how you get from good to great. Yeah, so let me, let me take you back, cause I mean I love the thought that went into to the concept from the beginning, but what inspired you to, in 2005, open up a hamburger stand? Patrick: Well, thank you for asking. It's almost embarrassing, I apparently. When I finally did it, a score of my friends contacted me to remind me how much I had been boring them for so many years that I had always wanted to open up a hamburger stand. And do not ask me where that came from. I have no idea, other than to say that I love the idea of serving a hamburger, french fries and a milkshake. I just, I just think that's glorious and I know that's probably way over the top, but there's something so satisfying and it's probably because it's my favorite meal that I just can't get past it. So I had always wanted to do it and I had a particular location that I had in mind and I lost it five years earlier and it sat empty for five years and finally it became available, and so that's when we opened up at Lamar and Barton Springs in Austin. Chris: I love that. Well, I mean. So, like, like any good entrepreneur, in my view, you followed your passion, your favorite meal, something that you have a passion about doing. Patrick: Let me tell you, if you don't love this business, you better not get in it, because it is consuming, it's all consuming. And so you know I look around. When I used to, you know, when I would hire somebody, I would remind them that if they didn't really love the restaurant business or what we do every day, you are not going to be happy, and if you do love it, you're going to be very happy, because we're drinking out of a fire hose here pretty much every day. Chris: Let's talk a little bit about hiring, because I think that's really regardless of the industry, really regardless of the industry. I mean, companies are made of people and you've got to get the right people to help, you know, maybe bring your vision to light, your strategies to life. What have you done over the years to make sure that you are making that right hire decision? I assume it's evolved over time and I think there's at least a couple of pieces. I'd love to maybe hear how it was starting out, but oh, yeah, it was. I know that coming out of COVID it had to be even more challenging, because people wouldn't even come to work. Patrick: Right. Well, when we first opened, the first day we opened, my wife Kathy was there and she had no restaurant experience. I had some and I put her through it. It was. You know, it was very difficult, and she likes to tell the story that she looked around the very first day and realized that there was no way we were going to do this by ourselves. And so the first three years we were in the stands every day. I mean, I worked every day, morning to night, and by doing that I got to know, obviously, everything that it took to run the stand, every position. But I also got to see the people that were there and I was able to separate the ones that were working out and the ones that weren't. And I was not a good hire at first. There is this you know, boy, it's easy to take what you think is the simple route and just put a body in place and, man, if it's the wrong body, everyone's miserable, and so it took me a while. I just had a certain, but I was not going to give in. I had a certain level of employee or stand or team member that I was, that I had envisioned, and so I wasn't going to lower the bar. And so the first three years were really difficult because a lot of people you bring in had other unfortunately had other fast food experience and they brought a lot of bad habits with them. And so you know, it's one of those deals when you hire somebody, frankly, they either have to be scared of you or they have to like you, and I'm not the guy that they're going to be scared of. That's just not the role I want to play. It's not the business I want to run. We're not always going to agree, but my hope is that we like and respect each other and respect each other. The other thing is what we learned being there every day is we learned so? Many of our employees' lives are completely different than mine. You know I've been around for a long time. I had some money in the bank. You know I had a college education, I had a career before this, so it's really easy to live in your bubble and not recognize it, and so I tell this story a lot. We had an employee, vinny and this was 18 years ago and, by the way, I'm proud to say Vinny still works for us, as do a lot of those people in those first few years. They're still with us and Vinny's truck broke down and I had worked all day and I didn't want to do his job that night, so I convinced him just to get in a cab and I would pay for the cab. And then when Vinny got there, I said what's going on with the truck? And he said well, it's going to cost $150 to get fixed and I don't have $150. So I handed him $150 and I said pay me when you can, because I need you here and I need your truck fixed Now if I'm in a corporate office, then he probably loses his job because he didn't show up. Right, right, I don't answer the phone, we don't have that conversation. So then I've lost an employee that I've had for 18 years. But, more importantly, I understand the position they're in, and so the very first thing we did from that is we created a non-interest loan program for all of our employees. So if you walk in to my office right now or you don't even have to do that you tell your manager, and the manager is going to make a phone call and you say I'm behind in my rent or I have a, you know, whatever it is, you're going to get a loan, and if it's under, if it's five hundred dollars or under, we don't even ask, we just you get it. If it's more than that, we want to know what's going on, you know. And so what we did is we made hiring easier. This is a really hard thing to do every day. The last thing I need to do is make it more difficult. So so we started by taking care of our people better than most, and they told their friends, they told their relatives, and so they understood that this is a two-way street and I'm going to take care of you, but you have to take care of me and, of course, the way you take care of me is you take care of the customer. Advert: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyMillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Chris: That's great. I mean the idea and I think it's true in any organization. If the people that work for you think that you genuinely care about them as a person, not just that they get the job done, you're going to create loyalty and engagement with that employee. Naturally, hearing your story leads me to the question about culture. Let's talk about that. How would you describe the culture at P Terry's? Obviously, the fundamental philosophy you just described, I would assume, is some of the foundational elements of the culture that you're trying to build or have built. So what can you share about that? Patrick: Well, I'll tell you the obvious. You and your listeners already know this culture is the most important thing. There's nothing even close to second when it comes to running your business. The culture that you establish speaks for who you are, not only to your employees, but to your customers. Speaks for who you are, not only to your employees, but to your customers. There's nothing more important. I can't even think of number two. I'll tell you an interesting story very quickly. I hope it's real. I had a person call me and want to visit with me about the business, and they had a very successful online clothing company and they were about to open up stores for the first time. Everything they had always sold was online, and he asked me what it took to open the store and take care of the employees for the very first time. Right, this is all of a sudden. It's not a click, it's a conversation, and I probably talked for 15 or 20 minutes about everything we do every day for our employees. I thought I really thought his head was going to explode. I mean, he. It was so beyond the realm for him. And I get it right. This is like, and what I was trying to explain to him was you're, you may be selling the same item, but you've got an entirely different business model now. I mean, now you have, for the very first time, you have a person representing you selling that product to someone. And boy, you better get that right. And so that's really what it boils down to is understanding what we do every day and what our people do, and the culture has to be led by me. You know, I read a great line a couple of weeks ago. Somebody said to the person running the company, what's your job? And he said my job is to be right. And so when you accept that as your job and, by the way, I don't do it by myself, oh my Lord, not even close right, I mean, I've got all. I got these people around me that are just terrific, and but I certainly go to them and we certainly talk about everything. But the first thing that this has to be established is I'm here and I answer my phone and if, if you're in the hospital, I need to be there and make sure everything's okay. If you have a family member that has an issue, if there's something I can do, I got to do it. And then you have to understand everyone has to understand that there's a bar set and no one goes below the bar, and I can never go below the bar, obviously, and so it's really for me and for P Terry's, it's really by example, and if you know, dogs and kids can spot a phony a mile away. And so if you're not sincere in what you're trying to do and what you believe in and I've had some people that work for me that I could tell immediately you know you're faking it and you know you just don't feel the same way the rest of us do, and nobody wants to be in that position. So you're not happy here and I'm not happy with you here, so let's just shake hands and walk away from each other. So there's a lot of that going on, but the culture and what we do every day, the first thing we do is we just take care of our people and then we count on them to take care of the customer. Chris: Yeah, Some of what you're saying there I've heard others speak to. We certainly have that philosophy here in the business we run in this firm and that is we say we hire and fire from culture. Right, you have to know what the culture is. You have to look for the people the best you can through interview processes and hire from culture. More importantly, when you figure out someone's, you know you set the standard and you can't go below it. But if you see someone that's consistently going below it or faking it, then you've got to move fast and they need to be out of the organization. And it doesn't have to be harsh to your point. Chris: They're not happy, no one's happy. They're going to be happier somewhere else that has a different set of standards that connect with them. But you've established your standards. You've tied behavior that you can demonstrate is consistent with that that comes from the top down, and then everyone can be on the same page. Patrick: And it has to be. It's almost like, you know, being in the middle of an orchestra. You know we're all playing the song and we've all got a part to play, and if one of us, you know, drops the violin, it's not going to feel sound the same. Yeah, so true. Chris: So you know, reading up on, you know the goings on at P Terry's. I want to kind of turn the conversation a little bit to the last maybe I guess it's been four or five years you did something that is not easy for a founder to do in 2019. You decided to step down as CEO of you know, your proverbial baby let's talk about that. Obviously not the first time an entrepreneur has done that and kind of handed reins over. What led to that decision and how was it for you to kind of transition out of the CEO role? Patrick: Well, if it's okay, I want to step back a couple more years before that and talk about something that it really doesn't make the papers very often. That, and talk about something that it really doesn't make the papers very often. We had at one point I had just kind of hit a wall. I was exhausted. I was working with a kind of a person that I had next to me that was, you know, my right hand man. It was just it was. We had been going at such a pace for so long. You know, my wife and I have funded, had funded this business all by ourselves. The entire time we borrowed money but we didn't have any other investors, so everything kind of fell on us every day and the idea came up that maybe we should sell because this is just exhausting. And we did a dog and pony show and had a half a dozen legitimate buyers and we got a wonderful offer. You know, as I said to the person when I turned him down, you offered me enough money to go live on an island and I've got two little girls. I don't get to live on an island even if I wanted to. So I appreciate the offer very much and I think what I was doing when I did it, and it was sincere, I wasn't trying to waste anybody's time. But I think after the offer came in and my wife and I both agreed that we didn't want to do that. This is not how we wanted our legacy to end. I think I was looking for validation. I had never been validated for the work I had done, other than you know that the we were allowed to expand. Our business was good, our customers were very appreciative, but from an industry standpoint, I didn't know what we had created. I really didn't. I'm not the guy that I'm terrible at networking. I don't go to. I don't go to meetings, I don't go to conventions, I just I really it's not my deal, I really just work. And so I got that validation and then I made a decision that the next decision we made was do we want to leave Central Texas? You know the Austin area, and I had never done that. And so I thought well, I got some great advice one time that I don't want to learn something that somebody else has already learned, that I don't want to learn something that somebody else has already learned, and so I chose to bring somebody in with the experience of having done that, and Todd came in. Todd Korver came in. He had a great resume, same moral compass that we have here, a really good guy. And what I was finding was that, no matter what, I'm still here, and there are certain things that I'm just comfortable with, that, if I'm going to be alive and still owning the business, that it's important to me that we do every day. And so it wasn't that Todd did a bad job. It's just that I looked around and said, you know, there's stuff going on that I think we can do a little differently. Maybe we can do it better. I don't know, because I don't have all the answers, but I think I'm more comfortable in the front seat than I am in the back. The departure was amicable, he's a good guy. He's got a great job here in Austin. He's going to do very well there. But I just found that if I'm going to be in the office every day, you know I might as well do what I really want to do, and so that led to me coming back, and so, you know, I think it also gave me a new energy that I hadn't had because Todd did some heavy lifting for four years, and so we kind of have come back with the vengeance. We got the idea four days after Christmas that maybe we should really take a serious look at serving chicken bites. We compete against everybody in the business and Chick-fil-A is, you know, the leader, and so a lot of our customers had told us hey, the only fight in our family. You know, my kid wants a chicken bite at Chick-fil-A and I want a hamburger or a chicken burger from P Terry's. And so, you know, the 29th of December we had this conversation and the 16th of March they were for sale in our stores. We made them out of our own kitchen and we created them and, you know, worked on sauces and stuff, and so we've really been going very fast at that. But that you know, and I found that I'm just much more happier if I'm going to, if I'm going to be around, if it's going to still be my company. I'm just happier being the guy that's running it. Chris: I understand. Well, it had to be difficult, especially so it sounds like you stepped out of the CEO seat but stayed, I guess, involved in the company. That had to be challenging, right, it was one thing if you kind of, like you said, go to some Island or just complete a separate business, but and I, you know, I did my best. Patrick: I didn't think it was fair to, you know, be in Todd's office every day pounding the desk, going why aren't we doing this, why can't you do this? I, you know, I let him run the company because that was the only fair thing to do, but I was in the office next door and so you know, you're right, I'm not on an island and so, yeah, at some point it just was like easier for me just to do it. Chris: So let's let's talk a little bit about the expansion. You mentioned that you had expanded beyond kind of the Austin area into kind of San Antonio. You just mentioned a store in that area your plans to come to Houston you mentioned just a minute ago, and ultimately five stores, what? I want to talk about maybe have you share, is kind of what goes into that thinking of the strategy, of when it's right to kind of take those steps which I would assume are, you know, somewhat trepidatious. Patrick: Yo, absolutely, and what we found is that we were interested to see in the challenge. Absolutely, and what we found is that we were interested to see in the challenge. And you know we really had established ourselves in central Texas. We have a lot of stores here, you know we're. I mean I have there's Lamar Boulevard in Austin. I have three stores on Lamar Boulevard, you know, and about three miles apart. So we're pretty inundated and I just wanted to see, I believe that our concept traveled outside of Austin. I believe that our concept really works most places and I wanted to see what we could do. And so San Antonio made the most sense because of our commissary and our delivery, so we can be in San Antonio in just over an hour. And that made it. And, by the way, we just went down, you know, i-35 and we opened a store in Kyle and one in San Marcus and one in New Braunfels and then into San Antonio and so so from a logistics standpoint it made sense, but it was really kind of a challenge. Now, I don't, you know, there is something I truly believe in and you know I have to tell you real quickly, I spoke at a UT, at the MBA program, one time it was a wonderful class, and the professor called me after the class and he said I got to tell you the students loved it and I thank you for coming. And I said well, I appreciate that. And he said but I got to tell you I'm probably not going to be inviting you back. And I said totally fine, can you ask, can you tell me why? And he said well, there's nowhere on the syllabus that just says work hard and listen to your customers. And I said okay, well, I get it, cause that's, frankly, all I know to do, to the God's honest truth is that's all I need, that's all I know what to do. And so you know we take. What I was getting to is, at some point you take a leap of faith and you've listened to the people around you and at some point, obviously, you're the one that has to make the final decision. And then you, just you know, you trust your experience over all these years and you know you make the jump. You just make the jump. Chris: So I guess just you know, since I live in Houston, what was it about Houston that makes you think that you know again the concept travels? Why the first location in Richmond? What are some of the things there that you know, you and your team see and are excited about that you and your team see and are excited about. Patrick: So we picked that part of Houston because we could drive from Austin again for our commissary until at some point we will hopefully have a satellite commissary in Houston. But a lot of it is the loops are of interest. There's a lot of growth there, there's a lot of room for expansion and, frankly, when you get in the middle of all of your fair city it gets very expensive. So you kind of go to the loops because the land is cheaper and the leases are cheaper. So there's definitely some of that. I'm just being very honest about it. I mean, there's some great locations but I can't spend $300,000 a year on a ground lease, you know it doesn't, I think it's a well. Chris: the transparency is what we're after here, and I think, again, kind of for a listener to go look, you may have some great ideas, but be smart about that expansion. It goes back to the first thing you said. You've been mindful in this business of controlling cost, and obviously I can speak to it. You're picking locations where the population's growing, so that's not a bad thing either. Right, your demographics must line up with the things that you know makes a store successful. Patrick: And at the same time and I've got a competitor across the street from me, across the highway from me, in San Marcos, and you know he picked a really bad location and my assumption is he picked it because it was cheap. So you know there's a balance here, right? You know you got the land for $60,000 a year and the reason is because nobody can get to it, so you got to be careful about that. You know, I had a friend of mine come to me. He and his wife came to me years ago and said I think we're going to get into the restaurant business. And I said why? And he said, well, we're going to sell, I think we're going to sell sandwiches. And I said what are you going to do that? And he said, well, people have to eat. And I said yeah, but they don't have to eat at your restaurant. And unfortunately, you know there is. You know, you just have to look at this stuff so realistically. And that balance of, yeah, I'd love to be in that location, but it's a wonderful location, but it costs me so much. All I'm going to do is sell burgers and, you know, not make any money, that's right, I get to pay the landlord to sell burgers, right? Yeah, that's exactly what it is. That boy, that's a tough. That's a tough way to spend your day. Chris: Well, patrick, thank you so much for sharing the story and the ups and downs, but I'm looking forward to having a burger once you get here you said you did it in Austin, obviously, and it is as good as you described. I want to turn a little bit to just a little personal side of things. Obviously, you've said a couple of times you just know how to work hard. What was your first job, even as a kid? Patrick: So I had a lemonade, a Kool-Aid, stand in front of my, in front of our house I was probably five or six and my dad was, and my parents were always there and always had suggestions and my dad came up to me and he said you need to put the because we lived in West Texas. I grew up in Abilene and you think your summers are hot, so my dad said you need to put the temperature on the. On your poster and and I said so I wrote it's 102, kool-aid, five cents. And you know the car stopped and it was such a great idea and so I always had that influence. I said that was my probably my first inroad. I remember in seventh grade I started selling candy bars there was no you know, costco or Walmart or anything back then or Sam's to the grocery store and buy a little six-pack of Hershey's. My mom would go and take me and I started selling so many candy bars at the 10.30 break that I was messing up the senior store at noon and the superintendent called me in and told me to stop. So that's funny, all right. Chris: So this is a question I ask everyone, and I'm incredibly intrigued to get your answer, because you're the self-described hamburger guy. Right, I got to know do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Patrick: Oh, I'll go to Tex-Mex all day, okay. Chris: I'll go to Tex-Mex. Patrick: And I love barbecue, don't get me wrong. But I got to tell you if I can have chicken enchiladas with the verde sauce and a side of rice and beans. I am doing just fine. Chris: Okay, so it's your second favorite meal. Patrick: it sounds like yeah, absolutely, my poor children. I'll tell you this real quick. I know you want to wind it down. My daughter is 16 now and when she was 10, she went on a water ski camp and she spent the day. And she got in the car and she said I said what'd you have for lunch? And she said they served these submarine sandwiches. And I said, oh, what'd you get? And she said a meatball sandwich. And I said, oh, that's great. And I said you don't seem like you're in a good mood. And she said I didn't know those existed because my poor children eat P Terry's every day. So that's, you know, that's it's a family deal. I love it. Chris: It reminds me of the story of you know, it was in a movie a while back right when the parents try to tell convince the kids that yogurt was vanilla ice cream exactly. Patrick, thanks again. Really enjoyed meeting you and hearing your story. Congratulations on the success and best of luck as you expand and move into the Houston market. Patrick: I appreciate it Well. I'd love to meet you one day and grab a burger. Chris: Let's do it, in fact, let's stay in touch on when that Richmond store is open, and I'll be there. Patrick: Absolutely, absolutely, and I'll even buy. Chris: What do you think? That's a heck of a deal. Very good, well, thanks again. Patrick: Thank you, I enjoyed it very much.

St. Patrick's Day is not just about parades, green rivers and pints of Guinness. In this episode, Brian teaches what he has learned from his studies of the life and times of Ireland's patron saint. He details the incredible influence St. Patrick has had around the world and shares the powerful life lessons we can all learn from him. YOU WILL LEARN:· Why your pain can reveal your purpose.· Why you must always be patient and prepare.· Why you have to be relentless.MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: “How the Irish Saved Civilization,” by Thomas Cahill https://www.amazon.com/How-Irish-Saved-Civilization-Irelands/dp/0385418493/ref=sr_1_1?crid=A5AI7FHQARRR&keywords=how+the+irish+saved+civilization&qid=1645979901&s=books&sprefix=how+the+irish+saved+%2Cstripbooks%2C202&sr=1-1 Trinity College Dublinwww.tcd.ie The Book of Kellshttps://www.tcd.ie/visitors/book-of-kells/ INSPIRATIONAL QUOTES FROM THIS EPISODE: “St. Patrick transformed Ireland from what it was to what it would become.” – Brian Buffini “Out of your pain comes your purpose, for all of us in living the good life.” – Brian Buffini “Don't give up. Don't take your eyes off the prize. It's a good life, keep fighting.” – Brian Buffini “Here's to a long life and a merry one.” – St. Patrick “So drink your pints and sing your songs, go to your parades and dye your rivers green. But don't forget what St. Patrick's Day really means.” – Brian Buffini See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

About Patrick McFadinPatrick McFadin is the VP of Developer Relations at DataStax, where he leads a team devoted to making users of Apache Cassandra successful. He has also worked as Chief Evangelist for Apache Cassandra and consultant for DataStax, where he helped build some of the largest and exciting deployments in production. Previous to DataStax, he was Chief Architect at Hobsons and an Oracle DBA/Developer for over 15 years.Twitter: @PatrickMcFadinLinkedIn: Patrick McFadin DataStax website: datastax.comK8ssandra: k8ssandra.ioStargate: stargate.ioDataStax Astra: Cassandra-as-a-ServiceWatch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/-BcIL3VlrjEThis episode sponsored by CBT Nuggets and Fauna.TranscriptJeremy: Hi everyone, I'm Jeremy Daly and this is Serverless Chats. Today I'm chatting with Patrick McFadin. Hey Patrick, thanks for joining me.Patrick: Hi Jeremy. How are you doing today?Jeremy: I am doing really well. So you are the VP of Developer Relations at DataStax, so I'd love it if you could tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what DataStax is all about.Patrick: Sure. Well, I mean mostly I'm just a nerd with a cool job. I get to talk about technology a lot and work with technology. So DataStax, we're a company that was founded around Apache Cassandra, just supporting and making it awesome. And that's really where I came to the company. I've been working with Apache Cassandra for about 10 years now. I've been a part of the project as a contributor.But yeah, I mean mostly data infrastructure has been my life for most of my career. I did this in the dotcom era, back when it was really crazy when we had dozens of users. And when that washed out, I'm like, oh, then real scale started and during that period of time I worked a lot in just trying to scale infrastructure. It seems like that's been what I've been doing for like 30 years it seems like, 20 years, 20 years, I'm not that old. Yeah. But yeah, right now, I spend a lot of my time just working with developers on what's next in Kubernetes and I'm part of CNCF now, so yeah. I just can't to seem to stay in one place.Jeremy: Well, so I'm super interested in the work that DataStax is doing because I have had the pleasure/misfortune of managing a Cassandra ring for a start-up that I was at. And it was a very painful process, but once it was set up and it was running, it wasn't too, too bad. I mean, we always had some issues here and there, but this idea of taking a really good database, because Cassandra's great, it's an excellent data store, but managing it is a nightmare and finding people who can manage it is sort of a nightmare, and all that kind of stuff. And so this idea of taking these services and DataStax isn't the only one to do this, but to take these open-source services and turn them into these hosted solutions is pretty fantastic. So can you tell me a little bit more, though? What this shift is about? This moving away from hosting your own databases to using databases as a service?Patrick: Yeah. Well, you touched on something important. You want to take that power, I mean Cassandra was a database that was built in the scale world. It was built to solve a problem, but it was also built by engineers who really loved distributed computing, like myself, and it's funny you say like, "Oh, once I got it running, it was great," well, that's kind of the experience with most distributed databases, is it's hard to reason around having, "Oh, I have 100 mouths to feed now. And if one of them goes nuts, then I have to figure it out."But it's the power, that power, it's like stealing fire from the gods, right? It's like, "Oh, we could take the technology that Netflix and Apple and Facebook use and use it in our own stuff." But you got to pay the price, the gods demand their payment. And that's something that we've been really trying to tackle at DataStax for a couple of years now, actually three, which is how ... Because the era of running your own database is coming to an end. You should not run your own database. And my philosophy as a technologist is that proper, really important technology like your data layer should just fade into the background and it's just something you use, it's not something you have to reason through very much.There's lots of technology that's like that today. How many times have you ... When was the last time you managed your own memory in your code?Jeremy: Right. Right. Good point. I know.Patrick: Thank god, huh?Jeremy: Exactly.Patrick: Whew.Jeremy: But I think that you make a really good point, because you do have these larger companies like Facebook or whatever that are using these technologies and you mentioned data layers, which I don't think I've worked for a single company, I don't think I actually ... I founded a start-up one time and we built a data layer as well, because it's like, the complexity of understanding the transaction models and the routing, especially if you're doing things like sharding and all kinds of crazy stuff like that, hiding that complexity from your developers so that they can just say, "I need to get this piece of information," or, "I need to set this piece of information," is really powerful.But then you get stuck with these data layers that are bespoke and they're generally fragile and things like that, so how is that you can take data as a service and maybe get rid of some of that, I don't know, some of that liability I guess?Patrick: Yeah. It's funny because you were talking about sharding and things like that. These are things that we force on developers to reason through, and it's just cognitive load. I have an app to get out, and I have some business desire to get this application online, the last thing I need to worry about is my sharding algorithm. Jeremy, friends don't let friends shard.Jeremy: Right. That's right. That's a good point.Patrick: But yeah, I mean I think we actually have all the parts that we need and it's just about, this is closer than you think. Look at where we've already started going, and that is with APIs, using REST. Now GraphQL, which I think is deserving its hotness, is starting to bring together some things that are really important for this kind of world we want to live in. GraphQL is uni-fettering data and collecting and actual queries, it's a QL, and why they call it Graph, I have no idea. But it gives you this ability to have this more abstract layer.I think GraphQL will, here's a prediction is that it's going to be like the SQL of working with data services on the internet and for cloud-native applications. And so what does that mean? Well, that means I just have to know, well, I need some data and I don't really care what's underneath it. I don't care if I have this field indexed or anything like that. And that's pretty exciting to me because then we're writing apps at that point.Jeremy: Right. Yeah. And actually, that's one of the things I really like about GraphQL too is just this idea that it's almost like a universal data access layer in a sense because it does, you still have to know it, you have to know what you're requesting if you're an end developer, but it makes it easier to request the things that you need and have those mutations set and have some of those other things standardized across the company, but in a common format because isn't that another problem? Where it's like, I'm working with company A and I move to company B maybe and now company B is using a different technology and a different bespoke data layer and some of these other things.So, I think data as a service for one, maybe with GraphQL in front of it is a great way to have this alignment across companies, or I guess, just makes it easier for developers to switch and start developing right away when they move into a new company.Patrick: Yeah, and this is a concept I've been trying to push pretty hard and it's driven by some conversations I've had with some friends that they're engineering leaders and they have this common desire. We want to have a zero day dev, which is the first day that someone starts, they should be producing production code. And I don't think that's crazy talk, we can do this, but there's a lot of things that are in front of it. And the database is one of them. I think that's one of the first things you do when you show up at company X is like, "Okay, what database are you using? What flavor of SQL or GRPC or CQL, Cassandra query language? What's the data model? Quick, where's that big diagram on the wall with my ERD? I got to go look at that for a while."Jeremy: How poorly did you structure your Git repositories? Yeah.Patrick: Yeah, exactly. It's like all these things. And no, I would love to see a world where the most troublesome part of your first day is figuring out where the coffee and the bathroom are, and then the rest of it is just total, "Hey, I can do this. This is what I get paid to do."Jeremy: Right. Yeah. So that idea of zero day developer, I love that idea and I know other companies are trying to do that, but what enables that? Is it getting the idea of having to understand something bespoke? Is it getting that off of the table? Or not having to deal with the low-level database aspect of things? I mean because APIs, I had this conversation with Rob Sutter, actually, a couple weeks ago. And we were talking about the API economy and how everything is moving towards APIs. And even data, it was around data as well.So, is that the interface, you think, of the future that just says, "Look, trying to interface directly with a database or trying to work with some other layer of abstraction just doesn't make sense, let's just go straight from code right to the data, with a very simple API interface?"Patrick: Yeah, I think so. And it's this idea of data services because if you think of if you're doing React, or something like a front-end code, I don't want to have a driver. Drivers are a total impediment. It's like, driver hell can be difficult at large organizations, getting the matching right. Oh, we're using this database so you have to use this driver. And if you don't, you are now rejected at the gate. So it's using HTTP protocols, but it's also things like when you're using React or Angular, View, whatever you're using on the front-end, you have direct access.But most times what you're needing is just a collection or an object. And so just do a get, "I need this thing right now. I'm doing a pick list. I need your collection." I don't need a complicated setup and spend the first three days figuring out which driver I'm using and make sure my Gradle file is just perfect. Yeah. So, I think that's it.Jeremy: Yeah. No, I'd be curious how you feel about ORMs, or O-R-Ms, certainly for relational databases, I know a lot of people love them. I can't stand them. I think it adds a layer of abstraction and just more complexity where I just want access to the database. I want to write the query myself, and as soon as you start adding in all this extra stuff on top of it to try to make it easier, I don't know, it just seems to mess it up for me.Patrick: All right. So yeah, I think we have an accord. I am really not a fan of ORMs at all. And I mean this goes back to Hibernate. Everyone's like, "Oh, Hibernate's going to be the end of databases." No, it's not. Oh yeah, it was the end of the database at the other side because it would create these ridiculous queries. It's like, why is every query a full table scan?Jeremy: Exactly.Patrick: Because that's the way Hibernate wanted it. Yeah. I actually banned Hibernate at one company I was working at. I was Chief Architect there and I just said, "Don't ever put Hibernate in our production." Because I had more meetings about what it was doing wrong than what it was doing right.Jeremy: Right. Right. Yeah. No, that's sounds, yeah.Patrick: Is that a long answer? Like, no.Jeremy: No, I've had the same experience where certain ORMs you're just like, no. Certain things, you can't do this because it's going to one, I think it locks you in in a sense, I mean there's all kind of lock-in in the cloud, and if you're using a data service or an API or you're using something native in AWS, or IBM Cloud, you're still going to be locked in in some way, but I do feel like whenever you start going down that path of building custom things, or forcing developers to get really low level, that just builds up all kinds of tech debt, right? That you eventually are going to have to work down.Patrick: Well, it's organizational inertia. When you start getting into this, when you start using annotations in Hibernate where you're just cutting through all the layers and now you're way down in the weeds, try to move that. There's a couple of companies that I've worked with now that are looking at the true reality of portability in their data stores. Like, "Oh, we want to move from one to a different, from a key value to a document without developers knowing." Well, how do you get to that point?Jeremy: Right. Yeah.Patrick: And it's just, that's not giving access to those things, first of all, but this is that tech debt that's going to get in your way. We're really good, technologists, we're really good at just wracking up the charges on our tech debt credit card, especially whenever we're trying to get things out the door quickly. And I think that's actually one of the problems that we all face. I mean, I don't think I've ever talked to a developer who was ahead of schedule and didn't have somebody breathing down their neck.Jeremy: Very true.Patrick: You take shortcuts. You're like, "We've got to shift this code this week. Skip the annotations and go straight into the database and get the data you need." Or something. You start making trade-offs real fast.Jeremy: What can we hard code that will just get us past.Patrick: Yeah. Is it green? Shift it. Yeah.Jeremy: Yeah, no, I totally, totally agree. All right. So let's talk a little bit more about, I guess, skillsets and things like that. Because there are so many different databases out there. Cassandra is just one and if you're a developer working just at the driver level, I guess, with something like Cassandra, it's not horrible to work with. It's relatively easy once a lot of these things are set up for you.Same is true of MongoBD, or I mean, DynamoDB, or any of these other ones where the interface to it isn't overly difficult, but there's always some sort of something you want to build on top of it to make it a little bit easier. But I'm just curious, in terms of learning these different things and switching between organizations and so forth, there is a cognitive load going from saying, "I'm working on Cassandra," to going to saying, "I'm working on DynamoDB," or something like that. There's going to be a shift in understanding of how the data can be brought back, what the limitations are, just a whole bunch of things that you kind of have to think about. And that's not even including managing the actual thing. That's a whole other thing.So, hiring people, I guess, or hiring developers, how much do we want developers to know? Are you on board with me where it's like, I mean I like understanding how Cassandra works and I like understanding how DynamoDB works, and I like knowing the limits, but I also don't want to think about them when I'm writing code.Patrick: Yeah. Well, it's interesting because Cassandra, one of the things I really loved about Cassandra initially was just how it works. As a computer scientist, I was like, "This is really neat." I mean, my degree field is in distributed computing, so of course, I'm going to nerd out.Jeremy: There you go.Patrick: But that doesn't mean that it doesn't have mass appeal because it's doing the thing that people want. And I think that's going to be the challenge of any properly built service layer. I think I've mentioned to you before we started this, I work on a project called Stargate. And Stargate is a project that is meant to build a data layer on top of databases. And right now it's with Cassandra. And it's abstracting away some of the harder to understand or reason things.For instance, with distributed computing, we're trying to reduce the reliance on coordination. There is a great article about this by Pat Helland about how coordination is the last really expensive thing that we have in development. Memory, CPU, super cheap. I can rent that all day long. Coordination is really, really hard, and I don't expect a new programmer to understand, to reason through coordination problems. "Oh, yeah, the just in time race conditions," and things like that.And I think that's where distributed computing, it's super powerful, but then whenever people see what eventual consistency are, they freak out and they're like, "I just want my SQL Lite on my laptop. It's very safe." But that's not going to get you there. That's not a global database, it's not going to be able to take you to a billion users. Come on, don't cut ...Jeremy: Maybe you don't need to be.Patrick: ... your apps short Jeremy. You're going to have a billion users.Jeremy: You should strive for it, at least, is how I feel about it. So that's, I guess, the point I was trying to get to is that if the developers are the ones that you don't want learning some of this stuff, and there's ways to abstract it away again, going like we talked about data as a service and APIs and so forth. And I think that's where I would love to see things shifting. And as you said earlier, that's probably where things are going.But if you did want to run your own database cluster, and you wanted to do this on your own, I mean you have to hire people that know how to do this stuff. And the more I see the market heating up for this type of person, there is very, very few specialists out there that are probably available. So how would you even hire somebody to run your Cassandra ring? They probably all work at DataStax.Patrick: No, not all of them. There's a few that work at Target and FedEx, Apple, the biggest Cassandra users in the world. Huawei. We just found out lately that Huawei now has the biggest cluster on the planet. Yeah. They just showed up at ApacheCon and said, "Oh yeah, hold my beer." But I mean, you're right, it's a specialized skillset and one of the things we're doing at DataStax, we feel, yeah, you should just rent that. And so we have Astra, which is our database as a service.It's fully compatible with open-source Cassandra. If you don't like it, you can just take it over and use open-source. But we agree and we actually can run Cassandra cheaper than you can, and it's just because we can do it at scale. And right now Astra, the way we run it is truly serverless, you only pay for what you need, and that's something that we're bringing to the open-source side of Cassandra as well, but we're getting Cassandra closer to Kubernetes internally.So if you don't want to think about Kubernetes, if you don't want to think about all that stuff, you can just rent it from us, or you could just go use it in open-source, either way. But you're right. I mean, it should not be a 2020s skillset is, "Get better at running Cassandra." I think those days should be, leave it to, if you want to go work at DataStax and run Cassandra, great, we're hiring right now, you will love it. You don't have to. Yeah.Jeremy: So the idea of it being open-source, so again, I'm not a huge fan of this idea of vendor lock-in. I think if you want to run on AWS Lambda, yeah, most of what you can do can only run on AWS Lambda, but changing the compute, switching that over to Azure or switching that over to GCP or something like that, the compute itself is probably not that hard to move, right? I think especially depending on what you're doing, setting up an entire Kubernetes cluster just to run a few functions is probably not worth it. I mean, obviously, if you've got a much bigger implementation, that's a little different.But with data, data is just locked in. No matter where you go, it is very hard to move a lot of data. So even with the open-source flair that you have there, do you still see a worry about lock in from a data side?Patrick: Yeah. And it's becoming more of a concern with larger companies too, because options, #options. There was a pretty famous story a few years ago where the CEO of Target said, "I am not paying Amazon any more money," and they just picked up shop and moved from AWS to Google Cloud. And the CEO made a technical decision. It was like everybody downstream had to deal with that. And I think that luckily Target's a huge Cassandra shop and they were just like, "Okay, we'll just move it over there."But the thing is that you're right, I mean, and I love talking about this because back when cloud was first starting and I was talking about it and thinking about it, just what do the clouds promise you? Oh, you get commodity scale of CPU and network and storage. And that's what they want to sell you because that what they're building. Those big buildings in north Virginia, they are full of compute network and storage, but the thing they know they need to hook you in and the way that they're hooking you in, there's some services that are really handy, they're great, but really the hook is the data.Once you get into the database, the bespoke database for the cloud, one of the features of that database is it will not connect to any other database outside of that cloud, and they know that. I mean, and this is why I really strongly am starting to advocate this idea of this move towards data on Kubernetes is a way where open-source gets to take back the cloud. Because now we're deploying these virtual data centers and using open-source technology to create this portability. So we can use the compute network and storage, a Google, Amazon, Azure, OnPrem wherever, doesn't matter.But you need to think of like, "All right. How is that going to work?" And that's why we're like, "If you rent your Cassandra from DataStax with Astra, you can also use the open-source Cassandra as well." And if we aren't keeping you happy, you should feel totally fine with moving it to an open-source workload. And we're good with that. One way or the other, we would love for you to use a database that works for you.Jeremy: Right. And so this Stargate project that you're working on, is that the one that allows you to basically route to multiple databases?Patrick: That's the dream. Right now it just does Cassandra, but there's been some really interesting ... There's some folks coming out of the woodwork that really want to bring their database technology to Stargate. And that's what I'm encouraged by. It's an open-source project, Stargate.io, and you can contribute any of the connectors for underlying data store, but if we're using GraphQL, if you're using GRPC, if you're using REST, the underlying data store is really somewhat irrelevant in that case. You're just doing gets and puts, or gets and sets. Gets and puts, yeah, that's right. Gets, sets, puts, it's a lot of words.Jeremy: Whatever words. Yeah. Exactly.Patrick: That's what I love about standard, Jeremy, there's so many to pick from.Jeremy: Right, because there are ... Exactly, which standard do you choose? Yeah. So, because that's an interesting thing for me too, is just this idea of, I mean, it would be great to live in a perfect little cloud where you could say like, "Oh, well AWS has all the services I need. And I can just keep all my stuff there, whatever." But best of breed services, or again, the cost of hosting something in AWS maybe if you're hosting a Cassandra cluster there, versus maybe hosting it in GCP or maybe hosting it with you, you said you could host it cheaper than those could, or that we could host it ourselves.And so I do think that there is ... and again, we've had this conversation about multi-cloud and things like that where it's not about agnostic, it's not about being cloud agnostic, it's about using the best of breed for any service that you want to use. And APIs seem to be the way to get you there. So I love this idea of the Stargate project because it just seems like that's the way where it could be that standard across all these different clouds and onto all these different databases, well I mean, right now Cassandra, but eventually these other ones. I don't know, that seems like a pretty powerful project to me.Patrick: Well, the time has come. It's cloud native ... I work a lot with CNCF and cloud-native data is a kind of emerging topic. It's so emerging that I'm actually in the middle of writing a book, an O'Reilly book on it. So, yeah. Surprise. I just dropped it. This just in.Yeah, because I can see that this is going to be the future, but when we build cloud-native, cloud applications, cloud-native applications, we want scale, we want elasticity, and we want self-healing. Those are the three cloud-native things that we want. And that doesn't give us a whole lot ... So if I want to crank out a quick REACT app, that's what I'm going to use. And Netlify's a great example, or Vercel, they're creating this abstraction layer. But Netlify and Vercel are both working, they've been partnering with us on the Stargate project, because they're seeing like, "Okay, we want to have that very light touch, developers just come in and use it," in building cloud-native applications.And whenever you're building your application, you're just paying for what you use. And I think that's really key, not spinning up a bunch of infrastructure that you get a monthly bill for. And that bill can be expensive.Jeremy: It seems crazy. Doesn't it seem crazy nowadays? Actually provisioning an EC2 instance and paying for it to run even if it does nothing. That seems crazy to me.Patrick: There are start-ups around the idea of finding the instance that's running that's causing you money that you're not using.Jeremy: Which is crazy, isn't it? It's crazy. All right. So let's go a little bit more into standards, because you mentioned standards. So there are standards now for a lot of things, and again, GraphQL being a great example, I think. But also from a database perspective, looking at things like TSQL and developers come into an organization and they're familiar with MySQL, or they're familiar with PostgreSQL, whatever it is. Or maybe they're familiar with Cassandra or something like that, but I think most people, at least from what I've seen, have been very, very comfortable with the TSQL approach to getting data. So, how do you bring developers in and start teaching them or getting them to understand more of that NoSQL feel?Patrick: I think it's already happened, it's just the translation hasn't happened in a lot of minds. When you go to build an application, you're designing your application around the workflows your application's going to have. You're always thinking about like, "I click on this. I go there." I mean, this is where we wireframe out the application. At that point, your database is now involved and I don't think a lot of folks know that.It's like, at every point you need to put data or get data. And I think this is where we've taught could be anybody building applications, which makes it really difficult to be like, "No, no, no, start with your data domain first and build out all those models. And then you write your application to go against those models." And I'll tell you, I've been involved in a few of these application boot camps, like JavaScript boot camps and things, they don't go into data modeling. It's just not a part of it.Jeremy: Really?Patrick: And I think this is that thing where we have to acknowledge like, "Yeah, we don't really need that anymore as much, because we're just building applications." If I build a React app, and I have a form and I'm managing the authentication and I click a button and then I get a profile information, I just described every database interaction that I need and the objects that I need. And I'm going to put my user profile at some point, I'm going to click my ID and get that profile back as an object. Those are the interactions that I need. At no point did I say, "And then I'm going to write select from where." No, I just need to get that data.Jeremy: And I love thinking about data as objects anyways. It makes more sense, rather than rows of spreadsheets essentially that you join together, describing an object even if it's got nested data, like a document form or things like that, I think makes a ton of sense. But is SQL, is it still relevant do you think? I mean, in the world we're moving into? Should I be teaching my daughters how to write TSQL? Or would I be wasting my time?Patrick: Yeah. Well, yes and no. Depends on what your kid's doing. I think that SQL will go to where it originally started and where it will eventually end, which is in data engineering and data science. And I mean, I still use SQL every once in a while, Bigtable, that sort of thing, for exploring my data. I mean for an analytics career or reporting data and things like that, SQL is very expressive. I don't see any reason to change that. But this is a guy who's been writing SQL for a million years.But I mean, that world is still really moving. I mean, like a Presto and Snowflake and all these, Redshift, they all use Bigtable, they all use SQL to express the reporting capabilities. But ... And I think this is how you and I got sucked into this is like, well that was the database that we had, so we started using reporting languages to build applications. And how'd that work out?Jeremy: Yeah. Well, it certainly didn't scale very well, I can tell you that, going back to sharding, because that is always something that was very hard to do. So I guess, I get the point that essentially if you're going to be in the data sciences and you actually need to analyze that data and maybe you do need to do joins, or maybe you need to work with big data in a way, that's a specialized aspect of it and I think people could dabble in that if they were just regular developers and they didn't want to go too deep.But it sounds like the bigger, or the end goal here, maybe altruistic, is to just give people access to data. So even if they don't know SQL or they don't know something complex, just make it so that whatever data is there that anybody, with whatever level is, they can consume it.Patrick: Yeah. And move fast with the thing that you're building. Actually, I use a Facebook term, but Facebook does do this. Internally there's a system called Occhio that provides gets and puts for your data, but it abstracts things like geographics and things like that. But the companies that are trying to move quickly, they understood this a long time ago. If you have to reason through, "Am I doing a full table scan? Is that an efficient interjoin?" If you have to reason through that, you're not moving fast anymore.Jeremy: Right. Right. All right. Cool. All right, so let's talk about Astra a little bit more and this whole idea of, because Astra is the serverless version, the hosted version, the serverless version of Cassandra, right? Through DataStax?Patrick: Right. And ...Jeremy: Did I get that right?Patrick: You got it right. And so it gives you full access. You could do Port 9042 if you still want to use a driver, but it gives you access via GraphQL, REST, and there's also a document API. So if you just want to persist your JavaScript API or JavaScript and then pull it back out your JSON, it does full documents. So it emulates what a MongoDB or DocumenDB does. But the important thing, and this is the somewhat revolutionary side of this, and again, this is something that we're looking to put into open-source, is the serverless nature of it.You only pay for what you use. And when you want to create a Cassandra database, we don't even call it a Cassandra database on the Astra panel anymore. We just create a database. You give it a name. You click. And it's ready. And it will scale infinitely. As long as we can find some compute and network for you to use somewhere, it'll just keep scaling and that's kind of that true portion of serverless that we're really trying to make happen. And for me, that's exciting because finally, all that power that I feel like I've been hoarding for a long time is now available for so many more people.And then if you do a million writes per second for 10 minutes and then you turn it off, you only pay for that little short amount of time. And it scales back. You're not paying a persistent charge forever.Jeremy: I'm just curious from a technical implementation, because I'm thinking about PTSD or nightmares back of my days running Cassandra, and so I'm just trying to think how this works. Is it a shared tenancy model? Or is there a way to do single tenancy if you wanted that as a service?Patrick: Under the covers, yes, it is multi-tenant, but the way that we are created ... so we had to do some really interesting engineering inside. So my RCO's going to kill me if I talk about this, but hey, you know what, Jeremy? We're friends, we can do this. He's like, "Don't talk about the underlying architecture." I'm talking about the underlying architecture. The thing that we did was we took Cassandra and we decomposed it into microservices mostly. That's probably, it's still Cassandra, it's just how we run it makes it way more amenable to doing multi-tenant and scale in that fashion where the queries are separated from the storage and things that are running in the background, like if you're familiar with Cassandra because it's a log structure storage, you ask to do compactions and things like that, all that's just kind of on the side. It doesn't impact your query.But it gives us the ability to, if you create a database and all of a sudden you just hammer it with a million writes per second, there's enough infrastructure in total to cover it. And then we'll spin up more in the back to cover everything else. And then whenever you're done, we retract it back. That's how we keep our costs down. But then the storage side is separated and away from the compute side, and the storage side can scale its own way as well.And so whenever you need to store a petabyte of Cassandra data, you're just storing, you're just charged for the petabyte of storage on disk, not the thousandth of a cluster that you just created. Yeah.Jeremy: No. I love that. Thank you for explaining that though, because that is, every time I talk to somebody who's building a database or running some complex thing for a database, there's always magic. Somebody has to build some magic to make it actually work the way everyone hopes it would work. And so if anybody is listening to this and is like, "Ah, I'm just getting ready to spin up our own Cassandra ring," just think about these things because these are the really hard problems that are great to have a team of people working on that can solve this specific problem for you and abstract all of that crap away.Patrick: Yeah. Well, I mean it goes back to the Dynamo paper, and how distributed databases work, but it requires that they have a certain baseline. And they're all working together in some way. And Cassandra is a share-nothing architecture. I mean you don't have a leader note or anything like that. But like I said, because that data is spread out, you could have these little intermittent problems that you don't want to have to think about. Just leave that to somebody else. Somebody else has got a Grafana dashboard that's freaking out. Let them deal with it. But you can route around those problems really easily.Jeremy: Yeah. No, that's amazing. All right. So a couple more technical questions, because I'm always curious how some of these things work. So if somebody signs up and they set up this database and they want to connect to it, you mentioned you could use the driver, you mentioned you can use GraphQL or the REST API, or the Document API. What's the authentication method look like for that?Patrick: Yeah. So, it's a pretty standard thing with tokens. You create your access tokens, so when you create the database, you define the way that you access it with the token, and then whenever you connect to it, if you're using JavaScript, there's a couple of collection libraries that just have that as one of the environment variables.And so it's pretty standard for connecting the cloud databases now where you have your authentication token. And you can revoke that token at any time. So for instance, if you mistakenly commit that into your Git ...Jeremy: Say GitHub. We've never done that before.Patrick: No judging. You can revoke it immediately. But it also gives you our back, the controls over it's a read or write or admin, if you need to create new tables and that sort of thing. You can give that level of access to whatever that token is. So, very simple model, but then at that point, you're just interacting through a REST call or using any of the HTTP protocols or SQL protocol.Jeremy: And now, can you create multiple tokens with different levels of permission or is it all just token gives you full access?Patrick: No, it's multiple levels of protection and actually that's probably the best way to do it, for instance, if your CI/CD system, has the ability to, it should be able to create databases and tear them down, right? That would be a good use for that, but if you have, for instance, a very basic application, you just want it to be able to read and write. You don't want to change any of the underlying data structures.Jeremy: Right. Right.Patrick: That's a good layer of control, and so you can have all these layers going on one single database. But you can even have read-only access too, for ... I think that's something that's becoming more and more common now that there's reporting systems that are on the side.Jeremy: Right. Right. Good.Patrick: No, you can only read from the database.Jeremy: And what about data backups or exporting data or anything like that?Patrick: Yeah, we have a pretty rudimentary backup now, and we will probably, we're working on some more sophisticated versions of it. Data backup in Cassandra is pretty simple because it's all based on snapshots because if you know Cassandra the database, the data you write is immutable and that's a great way to start when you come to backup data. But yeah, we have a rudimentary backup system now where you have to, if you need to restore your data, you need to put in a ticket to have it restored at a certain point.I don't personally like that as much. I like the self-service model, and that's what we're working towards. And with more granularity, because with snapshots you can do things like snapshot, this is one of the things that we're working on, is doing like a snapshot of your production database and restoring it into a QA cluster. So, works for my house, oh, try it again. Yeah.Jeremy: That's awesome. No, so this is amazing. And I love this idea of just taking that pain of managing a database away from you. I love the idea of just make it simple to access the data. Don't create these complex things where people have to build more, and if people want to build a data access layer, the data access layer should maybe just be enforcing a model or something like that, and not having to figure out if you're on this shard, we route you to this particular port, or whatever. All that stuff is just insane, so yeah, I mean maybe go back to kind of the idea of this whole episode here, which is just, stop using databases. Start using these data services because they're so much easier to use. I mean, I'm sure there's concerns for some people, especially when you get to larger companies and you have all the compliance and things like that. I'm sure Astra and DataStax has all the compliance things and things like that. But yeah, just any final words, advice to people who might still be thinking databases are a good idea?Patrick: Well, I have an old 6502 on a breadboard, which I love to play with. It doesn't make it relevant. I'm sorry. That was a little catty, wasn't it?Jeremy: A little bit, but point well taken. I totally get what you're saying.Patrick: I mean, I think that it's, what do we do with the next generation? And this is one of the things, this will be the thought that I leave us with is, it's incumbent on a generation of engineers and programmers to make the next generation's job easier, right? We should always make it easier. So this is our chance. If you're currently working with database technology, this is your chance to not put that pain on the next generation, the people that will go past where you are. And so, this is how we move forward as a group.Jeremy: Yeah. Love it. Okay. Well Patrick, thank you so much for sharing all this and telling us about DataStax and Astra. So if people want to find out more about you or they want to find out more about Astra and DataStax, how do they do that?Patrick: All right. Well, plenty of ways at www.datastax.com and astra.datastax.com if you just want the good stuff. Cut the marketing, go to the good stuff, astra.datastax.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, Patrick McFadin. And I'm everywhere. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn or on Twitter, I love connecting with folks and finding out what you're working on, so please feel free. I get more messages now on LinkedIn than anything, and it's great.Jeremy: Yeah. It's been picking up a lot. I know. It's kind of crazy. Linked in has really picked up. It's ...Patrick: I'm good with it. Yeah.Jeremy: Yeah. It's ...Patrick: I'm really good with it.Jeremy: It's a little bit better format maybe. So you also have, we mentioned the Stargate project, so that's just Stargate.io. We didn't talk about the K8ssandra project. Is that how you say that?Patrick: Yeah, the K8ssandra project.Jeremy: K8ssandra? Is that how you say it?Patrick: K8ssandra. Isn't that a cute name?Jeremy: It's K-8-S-S-A-N-D-R-A.io.Patrick: Right.Jeremy: What's that again? That's the idea of moving Cassandra onto Kubernetes, right?Patrick: Yeah. It's not Cassandra on Kubernetes, it's Cassandra in Kubernetes.Jeremy: In Kubernetes. Oh.Patrick: So it's like in concert and working with how Kubernetes works. Yes. So it's using Cassandra as your default data store for Kubernetes. It's a very, actually it's another one of the projects that's just taking off. KubeCon was last week from where we're recording now, or two weeks ago, and it was just a huge hit because again, it's like, "Kubernetes makes my infrastructure to run easier, and Cassandra is hard, put those together. Hey, I like this idea."Jeremy: Awesome.Patrick: So, yeah.Jeremy: Cool. All right. Well, if anybody wants to find out about that stuff, I will put all of these links in the show notes. Thanks again, Patrick. Really appreciate it.Patrick: Great. Thanks, Jeremy.

Brands are facing fierce competition in this ever-evolving ecommerce landscape. More often than not, shoppers do a general product search on Google or Amazon, where hundreds, if not thousands, of brands fight for the sale. It’s a hard arena to win in, and every company is trying to find shortcuts and strategies to give them an edge.You’ve probably seen some of those strategies — for example, the products with a bunch of random SEO words jammed into the title so that the item appears higher in search. There are plenty more wacky Amazon tricks of the trade that brands have tried. Goal Zero is one of those brands trying to figure out the secret sauce but approaching it in a much different manner. Patrick Keller, Head of Marketing and Ecommerce at Goal Zero, may have finally solved the mystery — but the answer is not what you might be expecting.On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Patrick tells us that there are a few key strategies to unlocking more conversions on Amazon, and how they view authenticity and increasing brand awareness.TLDR: it takes great messaging, some big bets, and a lot of long-term thinking. Oh, and some pretty cool products, too. Hear all the details on this episode! Main Takeaways:Always Be Iterating: Producing marketing material is not a cut-and-dry process. Define your target market, set KPIs, and establish a timeline, then create a system that lends itself to AB testing and iteration. Don’t be afraid to create assets and then break them into pieces to test in different ways. You’ll learn more about your customers and the market in general that way, which you can then expand on when you embark on larger campaigns.Dream Big: Taking bigger advertising risks with a long tail is often a good way to get more bang for your buck. By investing in large-scale projects with a cinematic quality, you have more of a chance to use that content for much longer and build brand awareness with a larger audience that might miss a one-off campaign.Consider This: Figuring out a way to bypass the consideration phase on Amazon is one of the big challenges facing brands today. Because of the amount of options Amazon shoppers are presented with, companies that might have converted easily on their own site are losing out on Amazon. Whether through influencers or targeted campaigns, building brand awareness and loyalty is one of the methods brands are using to start bypassing that consideration phase and actually convert more.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO over here at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Patrick Keller, Head of marketing and ecommerce at Goal Zero. Patrick, welcome to the show.Patrick:Hey, thanks for having me. It's fantastic to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you on. I think I needed Goal Zero back in the snowstorm in Austin. So I'm in Austin, I forgot to tell you that. But we did not have power. We were struggling over here, and I did not have any products that I apparently needed. Now I went to Goal Zero's website, and I realized, this is all I needed. I just didn't know about it.Patrick:That's it. That's it.Stephanie:I'd love to start there. What is Goal Zero?Patrick:Yeah, exactly. Goal Zero makes portable power. It ranges from small portable power to use to back up your phone all the way to really massive energy storage that you can use to run key segments of your home for days. We play in that portable power. It's all battery based, so it's clean, renewable and really easy to use. That's it in a nutshell.Stephanie:Yeah. It also looks nice. I mean, I saw in some of the product pictures it's on your counter. You have this huge battery power portable battery station. I'm like, "Okay, I would have that around because it's not a big, huge thing like other energy sources," at least like backup generators and whatnot that I know my parents used to suggest that I get back in the day.Patrick:Yeah, no. It's new technology, but exactly right. I mean, I think that's one of our differentiators, and our industrial design is something we're proud of and we spent a lot of time working on.Stephanie:Yeah. That's great. Before we dive more into Goal Zero, I was hoping we could walk through your background a bit. Because I've seen you have had an interesting ecommerce journey, and I'd love to hear where you started and where you've been.Patrick:Oh, man. I hope we don't take up the whole interview with my background because it wasn't a straight shot, that's for sure. I left college with a marketing degree and became a fly fishing guide and then followed my passions to a company called Orvis based out of Vermont, where my first role was really analyzing the performance of catalogs. Now, do we give pants more square inches? Do we give shirts less? This product needs to be more heavily promoted. This was back in 2005, 2006, when ecom was still in its infancy. It was a lot of educational resource. Yeah, we should have a website, but we don't really know exactly what to do with it.Patrick:My next role really was, well geez, you're doing a good job of building the overall conversion rate on our catalogs. Can you do that with our website? So we started building out the early days of web merchandising. Can we promote products and boost and bury and use common metrics like sales per page view to actually drive a significant improvement in website conversion? Honestly, it was a huge success. That was big.Patrick:That led to eventually me taking a side step into catalog, and I managed the Orvis catalog business for a few years as well as their email. That was really good at understanding customer segmentation, how to go through and parse lists, how to find demographic overlays and psychographic overlays and just really use customer data to make sure your catalog was mailed to the right people and the right message was delivered. That set me up really well for a foray into digital advertising. How can we make sure that our digital ads are as focused as our catalog ads? Ran the digital advertising for Orvis for a few years.Patrick:Then I'm from Utah originally, and I wanted to move back out West to the Wasatch. So I took a job with Sundance catalog. Same thing, grew their whole ecom business and then eventually Goal Zero approached me after about four years at Sundance and said, "You want to come work for this scrappy startup down in Utah?" I said, "Yeah, let's give it a shot." It was absolutely awesome. It's been just a rollercoaster of a ride, and Goal Zero has in the last five years, has 4Xed their revenue, so really explosive growth and really fun.Stephanie:That's really fun. What does your best day in the office look like at Goal Zero? What are you doing these days versus when you first joined this scrappy startup?Patrick:Yeah. Well, I mean we're a lot bigger, so we have more resources and we're doing a lot of different techniques that we're just... We couldn't even imagine these types of techniques four years ago, mass media, television, some of those things that we're stepping into. A good day at Goal Zero we still like to be outside, like to be active people. So a couple of us will go and do a backcountry ski in the morning, come down to the office, have some meetings, talk strategy, talk about how we're going to deliver messages, who we're going to target, what's the best way to convey a message about this somewhat nascent product and category. And then finish it off with maybe a beer after work and call it a day.Stephanie:Man, this is the life. I need to come over and join you guys for-Patrick:It's not bad. I'm telling you, we have a lot of fun.Stephanie:... banging beers.Patrick:Yeah. We have a lot of fun.Stephanie:That's awesome. How does it differ? I mean you're at Orvis. I mean, I think they've been around for like 150 years or something.Patrick:Exactly right.Stephanie:Okay. You're selling a fun, leisurely fly fishing type products and all that, then moving to a utility product where you feel like you don't really need it until you need it, like my Austin experience. Did you have to shift your mindset to selling a product like that?Patrick:You know what that hardest part is, is everyone knows what a fly rod is. Everyone knows what a pair of khaki pants is. There's no explanation. You start at a certain just understanding and then you talk about benefits. With a portable power station, very few people in the US know what a portable power station is, so you actually have to start a step back and say, "Let me introduce you to something you have never heard about, and then let me convince you why you need this anywhere from $400 to $5,000 thing in your home."Patrick:It's a much longer burn and really, it's a lot more complicated in how we educate customers. It doesn't start with oh, do I buy an Apple iPhone or a Google Pixel? It's just not that simple. You have to say, "Hey, let me make you aware of this thing and that this thing exists and then walk you down the funnel for just a long consideration?" A few people will buy who have done research offline or through other various means will buy the day they come to the site. Most of them, it's a 90-plus day transaction.Stephanie:Wow.Patrick:We'll see a slow burn for 90 days and then a lot of conversions.Stephanie:What are you doing in those 90 days to bring them down the funnel? What do those tactics look like behind the scenes? Because I'm even thinking of me, me trying to explain the product at the very beginning. I'm like, I don't even know what you would call it and how do you even explain this, because it's just not something that I'm even used to buying and talking about. So I'd be interested to hear, what does that look like behind the scenes for you?Patrick:Yeah. We break it into two parts. There is the before you've come to the website, and that could be PR. That could be trade shows. That could be television, radio, podcasts, a variety of ways where we're just trying to say, "Here's something that could be really beneficial to you and your family and just all the things you like to do. Come to goalzero.com.Patrick:Once they've come to goalzero.com, then we can open up a whole host of opportunities of how do we get educational messaging? How do we do differentiation between us and our competitors? How do we do differentiation between us and gas generators? We'll spend a lot of time reviewing our website saying, "I'm not sure this is the best way to talk about home energy storage. Let's change that up." We'll put you through and try to get you to sign up for emails. We'll do a bend and browse. We'll do a marketing display. We'll try to find you on Amazon. We'll try to find you in retail stores and say, "Hey, if you want to actually see this thing in person, check out our retail finder."Patrick:We use a company called Locally, which actually does an inventory feed to us so that we know now what do they carry at Goal Zero in a blanket statement, but we know that this product specifically is in stock at this store at this time. So we can drive customers to go see it in person and give them a chance to touch, feel, pick it up, explore it a little bit before they transact.Stephanie:Yeah. That's really interesting. In talking about top of funnel, you're saying you guys are trying everything, like TV, mass media, podcasts. What are you exploring there and how do you view things like TV versus podcasting, which everyone is seeming to try and lean into that now? What are you guys seeing on that front?Patrick:Yeah. It's funny, we're definitely stepping our toes into it. We're not doing anything full scale national wise yet. I think the first one we're doing is probably a national podcast. Last year in 2020 we did a lot of TV commercials. We said, "Let's start with something that seems to have a high level of success, so there was two areas. Number one is California with the power shutdowns, right? Any time the winds get over 20 miles an hour, Northern California shuts the grid down to prevent fires.Stephanie:Oh, I know. I lived through that.Patrick:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:I moved to Austin, and then a snowstorm hit. I'm like, "What the heck?"Patrick:Exactly right, right? We said, "Geez, if it's going to work, it's going to work in California first. Let's try that." So we did a really kind of cool TV commercial. We spent a lot of time walking customers through the versatility and just showcasing this product and saying, "Come to... " Then we hit them up with immediately social media messaging. We had a custom landing page where they could come to and just really say, "Chances are, you've never heard of this. Let me just explain and walk you through all the benefits this product provides."Patrick:We got them to sign up for emails. We were able to hit them with display. Then we mirrored some of that over on Amazon as well saying, "What we're doing at goalzero.com, should people choose to shop on Amazon because it's easy and convenient, let's make sure that a lot of that content is transferred over there as well." We also did the Gulf Coast, so Houston all the way down the Miami. We targeted a lot of TV ads there as well. It was a record year for storms, for things like tropical storms and hurricanes, and so we wanted to make sure that this is the people who are highly aware of power outages. Their power was out for a good portion of weeks on end in some cases for a good portion of the summer.Patrick:We targeted those two areas, and we had very specific metrics all the way through. Some of it was how much traffic are we going to drive to the website? Based on that traffic, what does the conversion rate and the AOV need to be in order for us to hit our sales goals? We worked closely with other agencies to say, "As we're planning this out, do you think we can drive this much traffic? What are the reasons or what do we need to do differently? What is the call to action?" Then we did a lot of AB testing.Patrick:We would have the full 30 second commercial, and then we'd cut that down into 10 and 15 second shorts that we can do a lot of YouTube and digital advertising with. We'd have five different variations that we could just go through and say, "This one seems to be driving the most traffic to the site. This one seems to have a higher conversion rate. Let's blend these two together and target those."Patrick:Long story, I think that it was a really cool experience. We learned a ton and I think the results were promising enough that we're excited to continue to push into broader audiences and more and more mainstream.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a really cool test. How did you think about attribution from TV, whereas YouTube, very easy running your 15 second clips on there, but did you have a certain CTA on the ads on TV to be able to go somewhere, or how did you think about tracking that? And what did that ROI look like versus just something anyone could get into, like a YouTube or yeah, direct advertising?Patrick:Yeah. We did a lot of it in just comparison saying, "Here's the geographic DMAs these things are running in. How does that compare to areas where it's not running? Do we see a lift over time?" And then just measure that. I'll give you an example. We took a look and said, "During the time these ads were running, what was the daily average traffic to goalzero.com from California?" Right? We said, "Oh, we saw a 300% increase." What was it on non-target DMAs? Oh, it was flat. We're down five. We can get some just basic looks at saying, yeah, it appears to have driven high levels of traffic.Patrick:From there, we went through and said, "How many of those people came specifically to our landing page that we had set up," which used power landing page. That was a good indicator of whether they were just randomly coming or were specifically coming because of this. In the case of the Gulf Coast campaign, it was nice because even within a specific state, there were some DMAs that got it and some that didn't. California was all of California. You had to make a few more assumptions about yeah, this appears to have really increased traffic over the control group.Patrick:But with the Gulf Coast we could say, "Well, geez. We hit Houston, but we didn't hit Austin. What are the differences between there?" We hit Houston but not San Antonio. So we could go through these specific DMAs and see lifts. It was a rudimentary kind of AB test that we learned a lot from.Stephanie:Yeah. That's great. What was your favorite campaign that you guys ran? Because I could see some really fun, creative ways to sell Goal Zero. So what kinds of things did you guys experiment with, or any fun campaigns that you're like, this is a good one?Patrick:No. I came from a highly analytical background, so when I took over the creative team, I was always like, "Well, we got to put numbers behind it, and we need to... " And that learning to embrace my creative side has been really cool. We ran a campaign for our 10-year anniversary called Ode to the Road where we went on a two-week road trip and stopped at all these cool places and produced a lot of really cool content. It was this traveling video blog, and we could follow along as you went. It was so much fun. I mean, you have to watch it.Patrick:It's just really cool people, really engaging content, and just again, it goes back to showing the versatility of what we can do and what our products could power. It's things like we set up Dometic fridges full of cold beer and ice cream in the middle of the Pacific Crest Trail. So people would be coming out of the desert after these long, arduous miles and they'd say, "Do you want ice cream? Do you want a cold beer?" It was like, "Oh my God, trail angels!" It was just fun, cool stuff. We had a massive outdoor dinner on the coast in Santa Barbara, and the entire thing, the grills, everything was powered by Goal Zero. Yeah, it's creative, cool, engaging content. It's a lot of fun.Stephanie:Wow. Yeah, that sounds really cool. I mean, that also just makes me think branded content, and it could be full on series, Netflix series is the way of the future. I mean we've heard from so many guests that organic and natural is definitely the way to sell nowadays, but also having your product integrated in a way that doesn't feel salesy. To me, branded content like that seems like the way of the future. Have you guys thought about exploring that even more? I mean, which also goes back to the whole companies turning into media companies and thinking that way now going forward. How are you thinking about that for the next couple years?Patrick:Yeah. Well, I think a lot of it is we're listening closely to the voice of the customer, right? One of the things I really like about Goal Zero and I really like about my job is it's just, there's surprises around every corner. Right? You'll hear these stories about, "Hey, I used Goal Zero to power this obscure, weird thing," that you just never even thought of. Suddenly, you hear that there's a ton of people doing this and you can start building campaigns and start building content around that.Patrick:One of the things we like to do is we'll run periodically a how do you Yeti. Yetis are portable power stations, it's been called. You get these great stories back of people being like, "You know what? I use it to power my insulin pump when I'm outside. Normally, it's prohibited. I can't be more than a couple of hours away from an outlet because I need the power for my insulin pump working. Now I can go backpacking."Patrick:We had a story on that Ode to the Road. A man was powering his prosthetic limb with some of our products to hike the Pacific Crest Trail. So I think you're right. I think there is a ton of stories that we look at and say, "How can we tell a story that aligns with our core values, that aligns with us as a brand, and then softly references some of our products in the background?"Patrick:It's mostly a question of is it authentic and is it engaging? And is it engaging to a mass of people? If we can answer those questions and then we can say, it has a loose tie to a specific product or to a group of Goal Zero products, then yeah, we're looking at producing higher quality content, more cinematic style content that we can then use on TV, we can use in a variety of ways. Then at a larger scale, we always partner with cinematic expeditions. So a lot of our ambassadors will go out and say, "We're climbing Everest. We need to power all of our RED cameras and power our drones and power all of the backup storage." Our stuff does that, and so we'll sponsor that movie or that Nat Geo episode or whatever.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, I think that's also just much longer term thinking than quick hit campaigns and always having to think about adjusting ad units every single day and ad fatigue. I feel like sponsoring or creating content like that will have longer ROIs and could be relevant if you have them shot in an evergreen way for years to come, which I think is why it's such an exciting angle to be thinking that way.Patrick:I think for us, what we always look at is brand and category awareness. It's one of those things going back to what we discussed earlier, which is nobody knows what a portable power station is. It is a really long burn to get somebody to understand it, identify that they need it, and then pull the trigger on a very expensive item. We do, we go back and just realize that part of that brand building, part of that awareness is just, it's critical. We have a product that when people get it and they're like, "I need this," yeah, it clicks. But we have to continually get that word out there through really engaging, authentic content.Stephanie:Yep. Did you have to make any quick pivots when the pandemic hit? Because I could see in person, like you're mentioning, touching it, being able to pick it up, see how light or not light it is would be an important part of the sales process. Did you have to pivot to a different strategy when people could not as easily go in stores and maybe even now are still reluctant to go out and see it in person?Patrick:We saw a massive shift to online, for sure. Our partners were selling predominantly online. Our goalzero.com and Amazon increased dramatically. I think the biggest shift we had to make was just the unexpected surge in business. We didn't plan for 100% growth as a result of COVID, so our inventory was an issue. Kudos to our supply chain team. They were pulling in orders and doing whatever we could to actually get enough inventory to support it, and even then, we still ran out for periods of time, long periods of time.Patrick:I think that was probably the biggest thing we faced was it wasn't a lack of interest or people weren't willing to buy online. It was yeah, they easily transitioned and then we just managing inventory, managing expectations, how do we alert people that we're back in stock? Those are all things that we had to deal with as well as just managing growth internally as an organization.Stephanie:Yep. Did you have to change anything substantially around your inventory management and the logistics and the backend that now are completely different than what they were maybe a year ago?Patrick:Yeah. I think that we set up an allocation meeting between all the departments and just said, "Here's how we're going to look at this and make sure that we're trying to service all of our wholesale partners, make sure we're servicing our utility partners, make sure that when people come to goalzero.com, they can use Locally to find product or hopefully be able to buy it there as well."Patrick:I wouldn't say that it was a massive shift in how we did things, but it was a lot more focused. We would have meetings twice a week with the executive team specifically on that topic of are we servicing our customers to the best of our possible ability? I think that was just the amount of time spent, it used to be a monthly meeting, and now it was two times a week. So really, more than anything it was just the focus was always on, when's our next shipment coming? When will it arrive? When can we start selling it? When can we get this out to our wholesale partner? I mean those were very common conversations.Stephanie:Yeah. That definitely seems hard, especially when you're growing as quickly as you all were, to try and scramble. But I also think that now customers seem to be okay with things, inventory, maybe not having something in stock as long as it says it's going to be in stock this date. And you can buy it now and I'll ship when it's ready. It just seems like that messaging maybe was missing before all this where it's like, if I have clear expectations and I know when I could get it, I'm fine if it's not in stock right now. But a lot of times you would just try and order something a year ago and it just wouldn't be there and you wouldn't know why. And is it coming back? It was just kind of like a black box.Patrick:Yeah. We stubbed our toe a bit on customer service side of things. So Goal Zero, we measure NPS religious. It's just something that we really hold near and dear. We have best-in-class NPS. The last few years we've averaged about 70, which is Costco, Apple, in essence, leading NPS levels. A big portion of that is our solution center. People can call in, ask questions. And just the inundation of calls, it was taking half an hour to answer the phone. So having to rapidly staff up as well as just implement new technology, the ability to have customers leave their number and we would call them back when they finally met their queue.Stephanie:And changing...Patrick:Changing the verbiage on the website saying, hey, our call center's completely swamped. Can we chat with you here? Can we answer you in an email? There was just a whole bunch of things that we had to implement very quickly and very effectively because just the unexpected volume that came through was a bit shocking.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean that's cool to think about how you guys pivoted, though, to just send customer service requests in different directions depending on where the resources were strapped at, which I think a lot of companies still need to do that or even just a simple, "Let me call you back," type thing, as long as you call back.Stephanie:Now that you're out of scramble mode, what are some of your favorite things that you're testing out right now? It can be around the website. It can be around logistics. What are you most excited about where I think this could have big results on conversions on reducing the 90-day sales funnel, but we're not sure yet?Patrick:Oh, totally. Yeah. I think there is endless opportunity. I think it's not a matter of opportunity, it's how we prioritize it. What is the biggest bang for the buck? We're actually in the process of re-platforming right now as we speak. Patrick:I think the thought process there is we have the ability to... We're currently in a lockstep environment, so we have to outsource all of our dev work. It's just, it's slow. I think we want to be a lot faster, a lot more nimble, and the ability to go through our funnel and make sure that we are converting at the best possible rate is a key strategy for 2021. Right now we have a group of executives, my ecom director, and some of my senior staff all focused on how do we explain our home energy storage, right? Because, it's complicated.Patrick:I think, Stephanie, you said, "I was in Austin. I could've used your stuff." But if you would've come to the site, you would've been like, "Geez, there is 40 things I can choose from here. What's the right one for me?"Stephanie:Yep.Patrick:The questions we get all the time are, "What will it power and for how long?" On a singular item, that's easy. Oh, this will charge your cellphone three times. This will run your full-size fridge for a week. But when you start putting in mixes, hey, I want to run my fridge. I want to run my kitchen lights. I want to run my ceiling fan. There's all these circuits you can wire in or hard wire into your home. Now you start complicating things and making a very complex process.Patrick:So we'll go through that process of saying, here's all the things that a conservative user can power for how long and this is the kit for you, all the way to hey, if you want to just live high on the hog with power usage and not conserve at all, yeah, here's the kit for you. There's various myriad of things in between. It's a complex, complicated conversation that is very easy in store. It is very easy at a trade show. It's really hard online, and so we spend a lot of time thinking about how to best say that.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, it brings me back to my Google days trying to think about how to explain how much storage people need on phones or what that looks like and talking more technical terms of how much storage you need. No one knows you need this many gigabytes, this many. Who the heck knows?Patrick:Totally.Stephanie:Versus you could say, "This'll hold 20,000 pictures and all the podcasts you could ever download," or whatever you want. That's when you're like, "Oh, okay. I'll just choose that," or I don't need that much. And putting it in more layman's terms or just pictures, I can imagine you just being like, "Steph, you can power your whole house if it's under this square feet and you have this many appliances and you're good."Patrick:That's it.Stephanie:I'm like, "Okay, great." I just want to just know that and nothing too technical.Patrick:That is absolutely it. On the flip side, there is absolutely people who want to get crazy in the weeds. Some of our engineers, because we bring them into the conversation, they're like, "Oh, this is not enough data. I need to know exactly the watts and the amps and the voltages." They're dissecting everything. Then there's me, who shows up, to your point, I'm like, "Just tell me what to buy. I want it and we're good to go." So we have to find that balance of providing both customer types, both shoppers the experience they're looking for.Stephanie:Yep. You're just like, "Will this run my kegerator?"Patrick:That's it, yeah. After I get done skiing, will my beer be cold?Stephanie:Yeah. That's all I need. That's all I need in life. That's cool. Are there any other big things like that that you're also focusing on other than the messaging? Which I think a lot of brands struggle with that, especially as they approach something more technical or when they're trying to... We've heard a lot of them talk about the difference between selling your mission and selling your product. How do you think about that and all that, so it's definitely a theme that I've heard. But is there anything else that you guys are working on that you're excited about?Patrick:Yeah. We've got a couple big initiatives. I think the next one is looking at how we target potential customers and really getting deep into the not just demographic but psychographic conversation. Our current customers I think we have a really good understanding of. And our ability to target them, to message them, to find out how and where they're shopping, why they buy our products, I think we do a reasonably good job of.Patrick:People who are not in our current sphere but are absolutely looking for our product, we got to get better at saying, how do we speak to these people who may not be on social media? They may not be Amazon customers. How do we find them, engage with them, speak to them? That's a big push for us and something that we're spending a lot of time on. Some of the other things we're looking at is, again, expanding our mass media campaign, doubling down there, continuing to push TV, podcasts, radio, billboards, just getting on a broader level again all through this kind of brand awareness.Patrick:Then lastly, we're coming out with a new content series, to your point. Super high-end cinematographic-type shooting and camera work and really robust, engaging stories that we're excited to share with our customers.Stephanie:How do you think about selling on Amazon? Because to me, people who are on there, they get a much different experience versus going on your website, they can go through all the video series and really get in with your brand and go from start to finish in probably a better way than when you're on Amazon. And you're clicking around and browsing, and you've got competing products all around you. How do you approach those two different platforms?Patrick:Yeah. That's a recent discussion for us. Historically, Amazon is always an afterthought like, hey, we're just going to throw our things up there and people who want to shop on Amazon could shop on Amazon. If they want to buy from Goal Zero, that's where they're going to find the rich content. That's where they're going to find all the great stories and the great videos. We're going to send them to retail stores where they've got experts. So Amazon was like, yeah, we'll put it up there. And for the people who want to just type in Goal Zero, buy our product, we're there.Patrick:We went and did a sizing exercise, and we said, "What is the size of the power station market on Amazon?" It's grown tremendously, significantly. We said, "Well, we got to start playing here meaningfully." So this year, specifically, we're doing a lot of work around top of funnel. Can we look at attracting customers and making them aware who are starting their shopping process on Amazon? Normally, what we're saying is, "Start it via TV, PR, trade shows, goalzero.com, and then eventually come and transact on Amazon."Patrick:We're saying, "We want to actually find people who their very first search for backup power or home resiliency is on Amazon." Attracting those people and then working them down the funnel, I think that we're a premium product. Amazon is a marketplace that really stresses on lower cost value products. So what we've seen is we're really good at driving the traffic and we're really good at converting the traffic. Where we get stuck is in that middle phase, consideration phase, where people are like, "Well, geez. There's 25 different power stations I can look at." And we convert some of them, but some of them get spun off into competitors.Patrick:I think one of the things we're looking at is saying, how do we actually take that middle consideration phase and almost eliminate it? Can we bring people back from Amazon to goalzero.com, where they learn without all the noise of the marketplace, the myriad of ads, and have them really get the full Goal Zero experience, see our differentiators, see why we as a brand have succeeded, and then bring them back to Amazon to convert.Patrick:I think that in conversations with Amazon and just around, I think that's one of the things that premium brands struggle with across the board is geez, we're really good. Our content's good enough to capture them. Then people who see the premium differentiators are going to buy. It's that consideration phase where just you lose a lot in the shuffle. That's our focus is make them Goal Zero diehards before they actually are ready to convert on Amazon.Stephanie:Yep. It does seem like Amazon's also changing when it comes to customer expectations of going there and being ready to buy more expensive products. I mean, I do think back in the day, like you said, you would just go there and just be like, "I just want the cheapest commodity type good. It's probably on Amazon." And now I mean Amazon's selling high-end furniture and live plants that are really expensive.Patrick:Totally.Stephanie:It seems like they're shifting their customers. They're adapting to their needs and being ready to sell higher end things, which to your point, is maybe a great place to start when it comes to getting the people right where they start searching in there and then targeting them afterwards to get them to convert in either place maybe, as long as they just don't lose sight of why they were looking for, potentially, your product to begin with.Patrick:Yeah, no. I agree. I think Amazon is making a concerted effort to not always be the budget brand or the value brand. I think that from my own personal experience and just talking to consumers, sometimes you get burned on Amazon. You'll go and you'll buy a product because it's the cheapest, and it's a knockoff or it doesn't work, or there's no instructions, or there's no customer services. It's just a poor experience.Patrick:I think Amazon is recognizing that and saying, let's make sure that it's not only price that's driving the flywheel, that service and that credibility and that it's going to be right the first time is there. Because they're super focused on customer service, and these bad experiences are bad for them and bad for the other brands on the marketplace. Yeah, we've had that engagement and that conversation with Amazon, and they seem like they're willing to help us as a premium brand reach our goals.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. I think when talking about credibility, to me user-generated content is a big part of that, of being able to go on Amazon or on your website or social, literally wherever you are, seeing someone who looks like yourself maybe or reminds you of your situation. And being able to see them having that product is exactly what is needed, especially for a product that's maybe harder to sell, that's more technical.Stephanie:If I saw someone like me, single mom, three kids, living her best life, but then needs something like that, I'm like, "If it's good enough for her, it's good enough for me." I think that's the way of... Amazon, I think, is trying to head in that direction, but I still think needs more help when it comes to encouraging people to continue to post their organic photos in a way that's going to help your brand sell.Patrick:Yeah, no. I agree. We've just started dabbling into driving traffic to Amazon with influencers, right? Normally, we drive them to goalzero.com, again, going back to the fact that we just have a much better experience on goalzero.com than we do on Amazon. But if we can take people who have big followings of trusting people that say, hey, this is why I use Goal Zero, this is how I use Goal Zero. There's videos, there's content. It's real.Patrick:They're actually using it and then we drive the transaction to Amazon. That seemed to be a good way to bypass that consideration phase, like get them adapted in saying, yep, I'm absolutely buying Goal Zero because it reflects my core values, because it aligns with who I am as an individual, absolutely.Stephanie:Yep. Have you seen higher conversions or did you do any split testing between having an influencer drive to your site versus to Amazon? And did you just see higher conversions on Amazon, I guess, because that's a platform that everyone recognizes, you trust the shipping on there? Is that what you saw, or did you see something different?Patrick:No. The campaign is actually just starting, and so the early read is yes, we are seeing that we can effectively drive consumers at a less expensive rate to Amazon. They're going to convert at a higher level than what we've seen in the past. We're not doing an A/B test per se, but if our conversion was X percent, it's now gone up by three or four or five points.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, okay. Very cool. Then how do you think about interacting with your customer if they came from Amazon versus if they came from your website and they are much more knowledgeable already about your brand and your mission? Do you approach those customers in different ways?Patrick:Yeah. That's a good question. I think that we definitely approach customers in an educational standpoint, meaning if you know exactly what you want, you're a lifelong Goal Zero fan, we're not going to talk to you and force you through this funnel of education and learning about the brand and all our differentiators. We're going to fast track you right to the buy box. But absolutely, we've increased the number of videos. We've increased a lot of our A-plus content, and we're actually going through and just really talking about our differentiators.Patrick:I think one of the things that we got caught up in was trying to play the Amazon game, right? As premium brand, we'd be like, "Well, let's keyword stuff our titles, and let's try to figure out how we're going to drive thousands of reviews," and all these things that you just felt you had to do on Amazon. We took a step back and said, "All of the stuff we do for goalzero.com is going to absolutely work on Amazon. We just have to do it the same way. We have to be ourselves and be authentic to our brand."Patrick:We stopped talking about keyword stuffing and started talking about hey, we're designed in the USA. Our offices are in Salt Lake City. We give back 5% of our profits to humanitarian efforts. Come check out our social impact and what we stand for as good citizens and stewards. We started talking about who we are, why we're premium, what we are and what makes us different from the rest of the competition, specifically on these budget brands on Amazon. And we're starting to see improvements to...Patrick:I think more than anything, I think just we're getting back to doing what we know how to do, which is really good marketing and just applying that really good marketing to Amazon versus trying to be like, "Let's say it completely different and be this whole and weird alter ego on Amazon," and just getting back to our roots. I think I'm proud and I'm happy of where we're heading.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a really good reminder, too. Yeah, get back to your roots and not get caught up in the frenzy of the platform. I mean yeah, I'm thinking about the certain listings on Amazon with the titles of so many keywords, and you're like, "Wait, is this the newest iPhone cover or not? I don't need to see every single iPhone that's ever existed since 2000." Yeah.Patrick:Totally.Stephanie:A good reminder for anyone, large or small companies, to stay grounded and focused on what your goals are and not get caught up in the platform.Patrick:Yeah. And it's easy. You're like, "It's Amazon." It's going to make or break you. What we found is Amazon, fortunately for us, Amazon has always been a small channel for us. It's never been a primary channel. Our wholesale, our utility, our goalzero.com are all significantly larger. The ability to come back to center on that is easier than if you are an Amazon brand and 90% of your revenue is flowing through there. I can imagine it's a very different conversation, but my recommendation is absolutely, stay true to your brand and do the things that got you there in the first place.Stephanie:Yeah, I love that. All right, let's shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you read, Patrick?Patrick:I hope so.Stephanie:All right. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Patrick:The nicest thing anyone ever did to me was early in my career I got a bit of advice that has helped me throughout my entire journey. It was the CEO at Orvis, and he said to me, "Success is easy when people want you to succeed." I've built my entire career around that saying, how do I add value to myself, to the organization, to everyone around me in a way that makes a lot of people's lives easier, makes people lives better? If I can do that, then yeah, success just comes naturally. That bit of advice has stuck with me for 20 years, and I still, I think about it daily.Stephanie:Okay, that's a good one. I like that answer. I'm going to start thinking about that too in my daily walks of life. No, that's great. What's one thing that you believe around ecommerce that many wouldn't agree with you on? It can be a trend. It can be something you're bullish on right now. Maybe you get pushback from your current CEO.Patrick:Yeah. Yeah, no. I don't know if a lot of people disagree with me, but I think there's a tendency to have a hard time differentiating between common practices and best practices. For me, a common practice is something that everybody does and it's just easy to say, "Oh, we should do that too. We should absolutely have an email signup box when the popup the second you come to the homepage." I hate those comments. I always say, "No, let's test it, make sure it's right for us." Sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. I think that making it a best practice means it has to be for you and your business and your company and the ability to differentiate is really critical to success.Patrick:Secondly, I would say there is no magic bullet. Success in ecommerce is a ton of elbow grease. It's a constant hustle and just always working a little bit harder and a little bit better. Because there's no technology, there's no new platform, there's no new nothing that's just going to solve all your financial troubles. It's elbow grease.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah, that's great. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Patrick:If I were to have a podcast, it'd probably be something outdoors, skiing, fishing, whitewater rafting. Let's see. Yeah, I think my very first guest would probably be Steve Rinella, and we would talk about hunting. I think we would go and talk about the nuances of it. Not the harvesting of animals per se, but the higher level just headiness of it, like how you be able to get out there and become a true conservationist, to truly explore nature in a way that's just so much more intimate than going for a hike with your dog. It's a really cool experience, and I would love to just pick his thought on it because he aligns with me.Stephanie:That's great. I know nothing about hunting or any of that, so I would for sure listen to that episode. What's up next on your Netflix queue?Patrick:Oh, geez. I'm probably way late to the game, but we've been watching two shows. I think the first one is Outlander. It's like this woman travels through time in Scotland and it's a cool story. Then the other one is just more comic relief because it reminds me of my big Irish family. It's called Derry Girls.Stephanie:Okay. I have not checked out that one yet. That's great. All right. Then the last one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Patrick:In the next year or long term? I think-Stephanie:In a year.Patrick:In the next year. In the next year, I think just the shift... The aftereffects of COVID are continually forcing customers who were brick and mortar to jump into the ecommerce space. I think that's going to drive competition. It's going to drive awareness. It's going to elevate the whole ecommerce world. I think that it's going to be a big push, and I think that we're going to see people realizing that you have to be on ecommerce. You can no longer be solely a brick and mortar. Now, you can do both, but I think that's going to be the biggest thing we see in 2021 is just the continued rapid growth of ecommerce as a whole.Stephanie:Great. Patrick, thanks so much for hopping on the show with me and spilling all your secrets. It's been really fun. Where can people find out more about you and Goal Zero?Patrick:Yeah. Go to goalzero.com. I have a bio on my management page, and you can also find me on LinkedIn. Yeah, I think that's the best way. Thank you for having me. This has been fantastic, and I really enjoyed the chat. Hopefully, we can, post-COVID, go skiing and have a beer.Stephanie:I hope so. I would be so down for that. I need that in my life right now. Thanks so much.Patrick:All right, thank you.

After this podcast recording, I wrote Technical Community Builder is the Hottest New Job in Tech which went into further detail on my thoughts on Community! Audio source: https://www.heavybit.com/library/podcasts/developer-love/ep-15-learning-in-public-with-shawn-swyx-wangSHOW NOTES Geoffrey Moore's Crossing the Chasm /r/ReactJS Taming the Meta Language by Cheng Lou Avis is No. 2. We Try Harder Metcalfe's Law Reed's Law Clubhouse CMX Udemy The Community Fund Working in Public by Nadia Eghbal Hacking Communities by Laís de Oliveira Prettier Transistor.fm Stripe TRANSCRIPTPatrick Woods: Awesome. Swyx, thanks so much for coming on the show today.I'm really excited to have this conversation.I'm sure lots of folks are aware of who you are and probably follow you on Twitter, but for those that don't, would you mind giving us a little bit of an overview about who you are and what you're working on?Shawn "Swyx" Wang: Sure. Thanks for having me on.Been enjoying the podcast, and this is my second Heavybit podcast alongside JAMstack radio.So I'm Shawn, I also go by Swyx, that's my English and Chinese initials.It's a complicated history, but I was at Netlify, passed through AWS and most recently just left AWS to join Temporal.And have been primarily active in the front-end/ serverless space.And I've been very interested in this whole idea of developer experience.I did not know to call it developer love until I came across Orbit.And I think Orbit's model is fascinating and really nails it.But to me, the way I've been breaking down developer experience is developer tooling and developer communities.So kind of straddling both.I was a moderator of r/ReactJS subreddit, going from about 40,000 members to over 200,000.Recently stepped down from that to help run the Svelte society, which is the community organization for the Svelte framework. And I think it's just a magical thing to be able to enable a community around a certain technical topic. Patrick: Yeah. Thanks for the overview.So you mentioned developer experience as a concept and a practice that you're very interested in.What do you think led to that point for you?Swyx: Honestly, it was Netlify branding their developer relations people as developer experience engineers, which I was pretty skeptical about, because if you are devrel, just say your devrel, don't try to put some unique spin on it.But then I think they really envisioned something bigger than traditional devrel, which was building our integrations and also working on community building, which is not like me talking to everyone, but also enabling others to talk to everyone else.And so I think many to many is a really noble goal.It's very challenging obviously, because you have to influence without any formal authority, but it's also a very appealing goal economically, because then you don't have to scale their number of employees linearly with your number of users, which I think makes a lot of sense.Patrick: So you mentioned developer experience for you is really comprised of tooling and communities.Can you talk a little bit about the relationship between those two pillars?Swyx: I don't know if I have a formal relationship in my head.The framework that I come from is actually from Cheng Lou, who used to be on the React Core team.I think he's on the Reason or ReScript core team now. And he gave a talk at Facebook's internal conference called Taming The Meta Language, and the argument of that--And it's a very good talk. I recommend people check it out.The argument on that talk was essentially that every programming language or every framework has a core and a periphery, and the more developed it gets, the core which is kind of like the code that runs, is a smaller and smaller part of it.And really the middle language starts to go around it, which involves tutorials, docs, workshops, community, jobs, third party libraries, yada yada.And so in his original slides, he had a long list of these things that are wrapping around a very popular framework, which for him was reacts, but you can extend this to basically anything.But for me, I think it essentially just breaks down to, okay, the code that is not core but makes all the developer experience much better, so that's the developer tooling, and then developer communities, which is all the people around the code, which isn't core to the code, but makes using that code a lot better.So it's just code and people.Patrick: Yeah. I love that.So as a project or a framework grows the core, maybe it becomes smaller as a percentage of the overall footprint with the periphery, the middle language increasing.What's that tipping point look like, do you think, when it switches from code to community being the bigger part?Swyx: Yeah. This is something you can tie in to Geoffrey Moore's idea of Crossing the Chasm.So for people who haven't heard about this, it's like a five stage adoption process going from 0% of the total population to 100% of the total population.And then it's a bell curve from 0% to a 100%.So the early stage is kind of the hobbyists, like super early adopter types.The only thing that they care about is this is cool.I can hack on this in the weekends, and this is technically better on some basis, right?Like in theory, I really want this thing to exist. I look at all the existing solutions out there and none of them fit me, because I have very specific needs.And they don't need a lot of documentation.They don't look for other people like, is this used in production by some big company that I recognize.They don't think about stuff like that. They're just like, does this fit a very specific need that I have?That's it. If it does, good. That's enough for them.But the majority of people don't work like that. Right?They do want to see documentation. They want to see a thriving job market.They want to see that like whatever, Netflix has used this in production.All that stuff that's not core to the code, but does provide some measure of faith that this is tested at scale, that this is reliable and dependable and a good technical bet. As you go from early adopters, you cross the chasm into the early majority and the late majority. The requirements of the early adopters versus the majority are very different. The earlier adopters require a lot less essentially handholding. I'm not trying to demean the people in the majority.They just have different needs for that specific domain.And the people in the majority are more conservative, probably as a good measure of technological conservatism.You don't bet early on everything because you're going to get burned.So I think it just makes sense to bet early on some things where it really, really counts, and then just be conservative, use boring technology on everything else.But it does make a lot of sense that the crossover is a very challenging thing.Because when you start a framework, when you start a programming language, you're just like one person or like a small team just hacking away, right?You just care about the code and making it run fast or more securely, or have special features that nothing else in the world has.That's great. And then suddenly a community grows around you and then they're asking for things like, "Can you make better docs? Can you integrate with my thing? This doesn't work well with my existing worlds."And you're like, "Okay, sure. I want you to be happy."But that takes you further and further away from just working on the thing itself.So I think as a project grows in importance and adoption by the majority of the community, you start to embrace different parts of the population with different needs.And I think that that's the crossover point. I don't have a number for you, but people typically peg it at--I don't know, 5% or 10% of the population where it really starts just crossing over already.Because there are a lot of people in the middle.Patrick: Thinking about your experience with the React subreddit, what were some of the learnings or observations you had as that community scaled through those different phases?Swyx: It's a challenging one because Reddit is a constraint format.It's essentially a link aggregator with a voting and some comments.So, JavaScript is the largest programming language and React is the largest framework within JavaScript.Arguably there's some other measures.But when you have such a large community like this in a constraint format where basically only one link or one question can be in the top position when you sort by up votes, then there's a matter of what target audience do we want to target?Because there are a lot more beginners than there are advanced people, but people come for engaging events, knowledgeable conversations.So there's always this tension between, there's a lot of beginners who don't know any better and we should be welcoming to them, of course.But at the same time, if we make it too beginner-focus, the events will go away, and it will lose its quality.So there's a very challenging tension.One of the ways in which we solve that is to basically contain the beginning of questions to a dedicated thread.And that's something that I did when I was starting out.Basically the promise you make is that you will answer every single question that goes in there, which is a step up from stack overflow, where you can ask a question and it just gets crickets.Patrick: All right.Swyx: And so that contains the beginner questions and allows other types of contents to come up, which can be more advanced.And you try to make the two extremes happy, even though you can never really do a fantastic job.So there are other ways, for example, you can forge the community and create as specifically beginner focused one.But then you get what you get, which is that there won't be that many experienced people frequenting that subreddit, therefore the answers may not be as good, or you just have a glut of people asking questions and nobody's around to answer them.Patrick: Yeah. In terms of tactics, were you the one answering the questions in the beginner thread or were there other moderators that jumped in or did the community help out?Swyx: I started doing that. So there were some months where it was like 500 pushes and answers, and the vast majority of them were me.Patrick: Wow.Swyx: And it's not so bad, once you find repeats, then you can just copy and paste.But I think when you're leading the community, you do have to lead by example, and then people who see what you're doing in the service of the community, start to jump in and help out.That's where I recruited a couple of my other fellow moderators, because I saw that they took the initiative and joined in with no expectation of any personal benefit.They're just serving the community.I think there is some personal benefit in the sense of, you get to answer all these questions and you strengthen your own knowledge, which is really good.And you also understand the pain points.So you can go write blog posts and articles and even libraries to solve those pain points.So having a very close ear to the ground for what people are facing helps you just be relevant to everyone else.So I think there's a lot of benefits for doing that.But yeah, it's actually a pretty good recruiting ground.Basically, if you want to be a leader of the community, just act like it and people will see what you're doing, and then they'll formally give you that position.Patrick: You mentioned that by being heavily involved with these beginner questions, things like that, it leads to inspiration for blog posts, tutorials code, things like that.We think a lot about the second order of effects of an active community.And one of those is content like that, where if you have a thriving community, one second order effect is you probably have ideas for blog posts, guides, tutorials, things like that.And I'm not sure everyone realizes the sort of power of that type of output.Swyx: Oh yeah. We have people who teach React for a living.They actually go through the Reddit to browse for people's pain points so that they can write articles. It's pretty effective.Patrick: Yeah. That's awesome. So you're working today with Svelte Society.Can you tell us a little bit about what you're working on there, and the nature of the community that's around that?Swyx: Yeah. So, Svelte Society started off as a meetup in New York, because I was friends with Rich Harris, who created Svelte.And I had basically ignored him for a full year because I was so deep into React, that I was just like, I don't need a new framework in my life.And I think we were both speaking at a conference and he gave a really convincing talk where I reached a point where I was just like, "Okay, I got to try this thing out."And of course I was impressed.Of course it solves major pain points that I had with React.And I just ignored him for a year, because I'm one of those not early adopter types.So there was a meetup that was going to happen in London, which is going to be this first Svelte meetup in the world.And I was like, "We can't have that. We're in New York. We have Rich Harris in New York. We need to meet up as well."So I just decided to tweet that. I wanted to launch a meetup. I had no speakers, no guest list, no venue. I just set a date, that was it. And then people got together and within a week we actually organized a met up with 50 people, someone from Microsoft stepped up and offered their location.And we did the very first Svelte meet up just scooping London, and eventually Stockholm also did one.So eventually the three of us got together when COVID hit.The three organizers from New York, London and Stockholm got together, and then we created Svelte Society as a global online community. We've done two conferences, we're about to have our third in April. And a few thousand developers, I think we're at 7,000 and something. And it's a small, tiny community, but it's actually a lot of fun growing something from scratch, rather than taking over something halfway and growing into something already huge. So I'm enjoying that difference in vibe. I think that developer communities where you are not the default, so everyone comes to you as the second framework or the second tooling, is a very nice position to be in because you get people who know what they're coming to you for.For example, when people choose React, they just choose React because they're told to do it, right?They don't actually know the difference between JavaScript and React, or they don't know anything else apart from React.And so some of their questions might be very off topic or just kind of not discerning.They don't actually know what they want.I kind of call this second framework syndrome, which is just actually like a positive.So I need a different word than syndrome.But essentially, once you've picked one tool in some domain, and you've gone onto the second tool, you're much more discerning and you're less likely to identify so strongly with one tool, because if you've left a tool before, you're never going to say like, "Okay, this is the solution for everything."Because you might leave the tool for something else again.Whereas I think people who are first time to a framework or to a tool might be too loyal to it and try to solve everything with it. And that's a recipe for pain.Patrick: It reminds me of the classic advertising campaign from Avis.They were number two in the market.And so this is like 1950s, 1960s mad men era, and their whole campaign was, "Hey, we're number two. So we'll try harder for your business."Swyx: Yeah. This is great. Acknowledge that you don't have the top spot, but there are things that you can still bring that people still really value.And if you just say that, I think people recognize it and respect that.I do a lot of marketing types in my line of work, and I don't like marketing that just denies reality.I think it's way better to just accept it head on, call it out.The other famous example is Domino's, right?They're just like, "Hey everyone, we know our pizza sucks. We revamped it. Come try us out." And it worked.Patrick: Big time. Yeah. Well this reminds me of a tweet you shared recently of talking about the advice, to talk about benefits versus features, but your view is that the opposite is true for developers.Swyx: For developers.Patrick: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about features and benefits when it comes to communicating with developers?Swyx: Yeah.This is one they struggle with back and forth, and specifically the tweet is about me relearning it.So the advice in traditional marketing is to sell benefits over features, right?Sell people on the vision of what they will be with you rather than without you.Instead of, you're specific how you get there.And that's why, I guess when people sell perfume or clothes or whatever they show you someone in a fancy dress or some dude with a fancy watch on a yard or something.It's association and that's how you do marketing in a traditional sense.But I think developers have been lied to too much, where we just stopped believing in people in marketing.So if you tell me your library's blazing fast, I don't know what that means.So tell me why it's fast, show me why it's fast, don't just tell me that it's fast. Because, sure, that's a benefit.Obviously that's an improvement to my workflow.But if I don't know why it's fast, then I'm not going to accept it on faith, because I've been burned too much or I'm not going to be able to explain it to the rest of my team or my boss when I try to adopt it at work.You have to have a logical reason, because there's also going to be a trade-off right?There are some free lunches, but usually there's no free lunch.You have to be able to answer the question of like, "What am I giving up in order to get this benefit?"And usually, marketing you only talk about the benefits, and you don't talk about the sacrifices.And I think that the most concise way to do all of that is to tell you how it works.Show you under hood and give you the logical explanation for, okay, all these alternative solutions that you're used to, they all use this legacy format, and we use a different format that is just way optimized without those legacy assumptions.In exchange for all these benefits, it will not be compatible with some legacy features that you now no longer care about.And you're like, "Ah, okay, that is me and I'm sold."But if you skip all of that and just go like, "This will be faster." I can't get behind that.So I think that's my insight on developer marketing that we want to know how it works.And I think that's which is partially why open source is something that's so appealing as well. We are able to see the code.Patrick: Yeah. Do you think that the continuum from features to benefits, do you think where the messaging lands at the timeline maps to where a potential user is on the chasm?Maybe early adopters care more about how it works and late majority we're about?Swyx: Exactly.Patrick: Yeah.Swyx: Yeah. So I got some pushback on my tweet saying people don't understand how React works, and it's a black box to most people.And that's true, but because React has already crossed the chasm, it doesn't have to.So I definitely am focused more towards early adopters, because I guess I work on earlier stage companies.If you're IBM, nobody knows how Watson fricking-- What is Watson?I don't know, but it does Jeopardy.I don't talk to the type of developers that buy IBM.And no shade on them, it's just really, I think when you're dealing on cutting edge stuff you really have to open the hood.Patrick: Yeah. Agreed. Shifting gears a bit, you champion the idea of learning in public.And you described your writing on this topic as your most impactful essay.So I'm really curious, how did the concept of learning in public become so central for you and your work?Swyx: I think that it was a reflection of when you look back on your work for the past year, for me, it was like the past six months, and try to understand what parts of my work was the most impactful, and what parts of my work didn't matter at all.I realized that it was the stuff that I did in public.And sometimes got wrong in public that contributed most to my learning.And I think this idea, there's a name for it. I actually got from Kelsey Hightower, who is sort of Mr. Kubernetes now.But he's very much someone who learns in public.Something that he just learned, he'll share it because it's was valuable to him from three to six months ago.Therefore it will probably be valuable to a lot of other people. It may not be the most insightful thing in the world.He's not presenting himself as the expert in something, but that's not going to stop him from sharing something fundamental that he learned, which is useful.And if you do that, you'll not only learn faster, because you get feedback from other people.Both from people who know more than you, and also people who are with you in your journey.But also you get to demonstrate your interests, which is very good for your career. It's a two-way street.It turns your network from outbound network, you reach out whenever you need a job, to an inbound network, people understand what you're into and they reach out to you for stuff that you are interested in.And I think that's a fundamentally different way mode of operation that most developers are used to.And they don't even realize that this is possible.They're like, "Oh, you got to be internet famous to do this."And surely you can get internet famous by doing this.But to me, that's not the goal. The goal is to just have a record of what you learned.Because when we do interviews, for example, we try to have this really lossy compression algorithm.We compress all that we are, all that we can do and that we've done, into one piece of paper and hope that the other side has the right decompression algorithm to unpack that.And then we complain about how broken the hiring processes, because we stick to this completely useless thing.It's much better to have a, let's say like a site or a GitHub that just shows that I've been interested in this.I've been hacking on this for three years and here's all the things I've done. It's instantly verifiable.It's like a cryptographic proof of work. And you don't need some massive following for that.All you need to do is actually do good work.Patrick: What's a tangible example of learning in public?What does that look like in practice?Swyx: So one of my talks was about how React Hooks work under the hood, because Hooks were a major feature of React that were launched.And those launched in 2018, and a lot of people were talking about it and not trusting it, because it was a little bit magical.So I thought about this question and then I tried to make a small clone of it.And it was just a very simple, like 29 line proof of concept. And I tweeted it out. This is a career hack as well. Whenever you tweet about a company's products or a framework's features, probably the people who wrote that feature will see it. Especially if there's a company involved, they will have a Slack channel hooked up to their company's Twitter account. That's how it works, right? And so, Dan Abramov and the React core team actually saw it.And it was like almost there. There's some flaws.So he actually gave me suggestions to correct it, and I just went and did it.And then that actually got a lot of traction.So that actually led to a blog post, then actually led to a workshop that was conducted with egghead.io.And then eventually a conference talk at GS conf, that was my biggest talk to date.And all that just because I tweeted out a tiny thing that I was trying to work on myself.And I could not have got there without help, without feedback from other people.And the other thing is I would never have thought that this was something that I could do, like do a completely live coded presentation on stage without all this validation and support and help.And it's one of those things where you don't know what you have until people sometimes pull it out of you when you share it.It just wouldn't have happened if I didn't share it.Patrick: Have you seen this concept work for non-technical people as well?Swyx: I think so. So I used to be in finance and I still follow a lot of investing people in the investing sphere.So, Patrick O'Shaughnessy is, I guess, a well-known investor by now.His approach is very much in the learning public phrase as well.So he also uses that term. But he uses it to just talk about the industries that he invest in, right?He can be much more in-depth in, let's say, minerals or energy, but let's say if he wants to learn about tech or consumer retail or shipping, he can just invite a guest to go on his podcast and he'll talk about it.And that's a form of learning in public as well.You're putting a beacon out there and having real conversations.You're never presenting yourself as an expert, but you become an expert if you do it this enough.And the rate of learning is way faster than if you just did everything in private.So the argument is very much like you're not putting everything in public, but if you put it just a little bit, you actually get a lot of benefits, because there's such a great network effect to learning in public.Patrick: Yeah. It's interesting to think about the gradient of self editing that has to happen when you're deciding what to put in public versus what not to share.Swyx: Yeah. And some people, especially women, have to do more editing, just because they get attacked more.And that's really unfortunate, but it happens.And I think you have to have a thick skin, actually my preferred way of saying that you should have a thick skin is that you should divorce your identity from your work. When people criticize your work, they're not criticizing you, they're criticizing the work that was produced by some past version of you. And if you're growing at all, you should look back on your work like a year from now, and just say, that was totally horrible.So you should agree with the people who are criticizing you.And in fact, if you build a reputation of someone who takes criticism well, then they'll criticize you more and you'll learn more.And if you just don't take it personally, and as long as they don't make personal attacks at you, of course that's not acceptable, but if you don't take it personally, then yeah, you're totally fine. So the way I phrased it is that you can learn so much on the internet for the low, low price of your ego, and just get you out of the way. Are you here to be good or are you here to feel good?Patrick: That's a pretty fundamental distinction that not many people may draw.So you've mentioned before the idea of learning in public and the phrase you use is building a habit of critical learning exhaust, which I think is very poetic.What do you think the relationship is between learning in public and the communities you're a part of?How do those two aspects interplay for you, do you think?Swyx: So there's a selfish reason. And then there's a selfless reason.The selfless reason is that I think we need to make it easier for people to learn in public, to create receptive and welcoming communities that recognize that you're just trying to improve yourself just like everyone else is improving themselves.And sometimes we don't have a space for that. And when we don't have a space for that we just clam up and just not try.So if we just foster a community of people who are all improving and working on things, I think that's just a better net positive for the world and net positive for everyone in that community.The selfish reason for that is that there's a scaling law that scales beyond me.So the way I think about this is that, there are few scaling laws.Some people are very familiar with Metcalfe's law in tech, which is that, the value of a network scales according to a square of its number of nodes.And that's analogous to me having a very big "Rolodex" which is like, my friend's list is very long, then I can call upon these as experts or friends or mentors whenever I want.That's really good. But it could be better, which is what's better than Metcalfe's law?Metcalfe's law is great. But what's really explosive is Reed's law.So Reed's law is sort of an exponential growth of the number of nodes.Because each of the number of nodes can form subgroups independently of the central node, which is the reason why Facebook, when it grows, the value of Facebook grows not as number of the members, it also grows by the number of interest groups within Facebook, right?That's why Facebook groups is so powerful as a value added to Facebook, to the point where most people would just use Facebook today for Facebook groups.And Facebook just doesn't care. Doesn't have to know.And you can be in a thousand different groups and it doesn't matter.But they're all valuable to you. Okay. How does that tie back to the community?A community is a many to many ongoing sustaining relationship between all of them, and me being able to grow them.I grow at that accelerated pace faster than Metcalfe's law, because Metcalfe's law is limited by Dunbar's number like--Sorry, I'm pulling in so many concepts, but there's a limit to the number of people that I could possibly know.But if I enable each of them to talk to each other and collaborate with each other, then I benefit as well, partially because I help to be a central member of that community.But then also when I find them, they will be innovating without me there.And that's a benefit to me as well, whether I've realized it or not.Patrick: Yeah. The distinction between Reed's and Metcalfe's law is really quite fascinating.Swyx: That's community. It really is, Metcalfe's law scales, but it's so much effort to add each node, because you have this central dependency, right?Which is, let's say the company or the core team of a framework, but once you have a community, then they're just all interacting on their own basis.And you don't really have a say, which is a little bit worrying, because it's out of your control.It's adding value to your network, whether you've realized it or not.Patrick: So a lot of Orbit's customers and folks in our own community have this question where they're early on their journey.Many of their early community members are just users of their product--t he early adopters, we would call that, or the Orbit one.And they're starting to ask this question of, what's the tipping point when a community goes from mostly people talking to the company about the product or the project to talking to each other about the project, about ideas and their job and broader concepts.Can you talk a little bit about when you've seen that occur, and if there are any tools or tactics or frameworks that the project maintainers or the company founders can implement to accelerate that tipping point.Swyx: Yeah. I think I definitely am not the authority on this, because I haven't seen this occur too much.I've seen instances of it. And I just don't know if I have the authoritative story.If said like, this is the general theory of how to make networks, I think I'd be a millionaire.That's a very valuable information. But I'm actively researching this.So with all that said, I think that what can be very helpful is that you make the identities and the interest graphs of your members of your network discoverable to each other.So a lot of the times when you hire a community manager, their job is to know the community members very well, and they typically store it in their heads.But if you have a listing of them, where people can actually independently search and discover, then you really find that independent connections start taking shape.But you as someone who manages that community needs to make that happen.Because that's not going to happen in any organized fashion on its own.So one of the ways in which I do see it happening very effectively for a company or a framework is sort of an official partner designation.So you do have the ability to bless some people as the recognized experts.So at AWS, we have AWS Heroes, like we'll anoint like external parties as serverless heroes or data heroes or machine learning heroes.These will be recognized experts. I just saw that Webflow actually, and Vercel have Webflow experts or like a Vercel partners program, where these are sort of the key system integrators, I think they're called, or like agencies or whatever you call it, that are very keen on working with Webflow.So then they get a lot of benefit from associating themselves with you as experts, or just as long as they derive significant value from hiring or finding business off of you, then they're a very engaged community members, and they're very incentivized to contribute to the value of your community.And it's just like a reinforcing loop, because as you build that then more people know to come to your community to find these people.And because more people come to find these people then more people on the supply side sign up and it's like a demand and supply side marketplace type of thing. So I do think that a marketplace is like the ultimate business model. I am a huge fan of marketplaces, but it can be hard to start. And sometimes you have to bootstrap one side versus the other. But essentially what you're doing is a marketplace, where you set the rules, you make it easy for people to transact and you establish reputation systems, you establish trust, you establish like this conflict or dispute resolution mechanisms.These are all traditional forms of a marketplace, but you can actually bring all those lessons, all of it, to communities.Patrick: I love marketplace as a metaphor for community.Swyx: The other thing that you can do as well is to organize events.Because I think we as humans, we like-- Okay, most of the time we like async, we like to do things on our own.We like to build our own networks independently, but every few months we love special occasions to announce some things and to gather to celebrate something you, like a woodstock, or I don't know, basically a conference.But the definition of a conference is changing in the COVID world.And another thing that you can do is definitely organize events where people would just get together.And sometimes it can just be a small dinner, let's say we can all meet up again in person.You can just have a day when everyone just gets together and just talks, and you as a community organizer, that's a minimum viable market place, which is just like, "Hey everyone, we're all going to get to get together in this room at this time and day."Which is what I did for my meetup, right?There's no economic transaction, you're not taking a fee or anything, but you're just making it possible for people to find each other.That's a marketplace.Patrick: Thinking more broadly about communities in general.What are some trends that you've been seeing in the way communities are being built or platforms are using or methods you're seeing as we go into 2021, and what are some of the community building concepts that you're excited about?Swyx: Oh, I'm so into this. Yeah.To a point where I do have an ongoing research collection about dev communities and people who are innovating in community space.I always thought that things were sort of going online, things are going asynchronous, and then Clubhouse changed everything for me.I realized that people actually like real-time connection and the ability to ask questions and participate in chat, and sometimes video and anti-feature, which is another interesting concept, right?Because Zoom was the darling, and now Clubhouse is. A nd Clubhouse is like Zoom, but worse.So yeah. I think people are realizing that connection is real.Having events like a clear before and after is a real thing, which I think is a reversal of some of the trends that we were seeing.We were moving towards more async online chat-based communities.And I think now we're seeing some revival in live events and live ongoing discussions in spontaneity and imperfection.Beyond that, I'm not really sure I have-- Okay, so the other thing that's also happening is cohorts, right?Which Wes Kao and Gagan Biyani from Udemy are championing.Which is basically communities gated by when people join. So most communities they're just open at all times.So you just come on in whenever, and whenever someone says hi, they're just like, "Okay, it's another person it's not something special."But when you make something into a cohort, suddenly groups have identities like, Oh, I'm sort of class of spring 2019.That's Y Combinator, right? But that's also college, and that's also a cohort of communities.And those cohorts are prebuilt, it's an event.Everyone is new and everyone knows that there's a group that's going through the same experience as they are.But then there's also broader group with more experience than they are. And they can access that as well.I think cohorts are an interesting twist on how people run communities.None of this is new, right? But we're just taking lessons from maybe other domains and applying it to online communities that may not have been applied before.And I wish I could go back in time and tell myself from three years ago all this stuff, because I didn't know any of this, but now it's obvious.It's obvious to me because I watch all these people closely, maybe people who are listening, if it's not obvious to you sit up and listen, because this is real.This is very valuable. And this is happening at a very, very fast pace.Patrick: Where would you suggest people tune in or the resources or people that you follow that are particularly insightful when it comes to these topics?Swyx: Yeah. Wes Kao is pretty much leading the core based course league.Rosie Sherry, from Indie Hackers is definitely collating a lot of community news.There's also Greg Eisenberg, he runs a consultancy that starts communities for people.The only problem I have with him is that he thinks of himself very highly.So he rubs people the wrong way, I think. But he does have valuable insights, which is very frustrating.Sometimes arrogant people are worth it.Patrick: Yeah. I think it's complete opposite of someone like Rosie, who is such an intellectual heavy hitter, but also so humble.Swyx: Yeah. I got more resources for you.So by the way I collect all this in my circle community.So, codingcareer.circle.so is where I collect all this information.So there's Get Together, which is a book and podcast for people who form communities.There is CMX Hub, which is, David Spinks, who has been doing this awhile as well.There's a bunch of people in this community space.Oh, Lolita Taub is a VC who just launched the community fund.So they're specifically a venture capital firm that is focused on companies building communities and companies building tools for companies building communities there's a whole circle of that.Patrick: Yeah.Swyx: There's a lot of stuff. And then there's also a couple of books that people really like.So Nadia Eghbal, Working in Public has some sense of community building in her stadiums and whatever and village metaphors.And Laís de Oliveira, has a book on hacking communities, which I haven't read, but I've definitely singled that out for reading up.Anyway that's just my resource dump.And I'm keeping this list because I think it's a growing knowledge base of what it means to run a community, and what are all the different ideas that people are bringing to their communities.Patrick: Awesome. Thanks for sharing that.So zooming out a bit to a question that I ask pretty much every guest on the show, what do you think is the secret to building things developers love?Swyx: So in that tweet about development marketing, I actually also mentioned another concept, which is a wow moment, right?And I actually expanded upon that by saying a wow moment should be something that inspires you to talk to your friends, tell your friends about it.It makes your jaw literally dropped. And it makes you never want to go back to the old way of doing things again.It creates a clear before and after. There was you before seeing this demo or seeing this tool, and then there's you after. And it creates a gap, because it makes everything that you used to do before the old way, you didn't even use to call it the old way. It just became the old way once you saw this new thing. And I think developers love something that takes away some pain that they might feel at their core, but maybe sometimes they don't even know that they have it.So I'll give you one example, which is Prettier in the JavaScript ecosystem.Anyone could have built Prettier in any of JavaScript's 25 years of existence, but nobody did.Until it was some-- It's Christopher Chedeau, but someone just went like, "Hey, Go has this really nice formatting tool. What if we just had that in JavaScript? And what if it was just standard."And he built it, and now it is standard in the span of two to three years in JavaScript, which is massive.And people love Prettier for what it does. Which is pretty funny.The thing is you'll never make everyone happy.There's a very strong band of people in JavaScript who don't like Prettier for their own reasons.But you make a lot of people happy and they do say that they love Prettier.So I think that's one of those examples where, there was an old way, which is you manually formatted your code and you had code review stand up meetings, where you argued over the spacing.I've been in those meetings, okay?And then there's an after, with this tool, where you no longer spend any time on that, because you just have a standardized tool that just does all that for you.So I like that. And I think that's one example of making things that developers love.Patrick: Aside from beautiful code.I always ask people, what's one thing you're loving right now?Swyx: I'm loving Transistor.fm for hosting my podcasts.I do run a couple of small podcasts, nothing like yours.But it makes it very easy to host stuff and generates a website for you.And it just takes away all the pain for me that I don't want to do.So I will pick Transistor.I guess I also pick Stripe, because it's such an easy--I wrote a book and I run the entire fulfillment from beginning to end, and Stripe checkout was so such an easy thing to integrate that I happily paid them their 3% or whatever it is.Patrick: Yeah.Swyx: Not a very non-consensus pick. I have to pick Stripe. But I do have to give them credit.Patrick: Well, you've been super generous with your time today.We've covered a lot of really fascinating topics.If people want to learn more about you and what you're working on, where online would you send them to go do that?Swyx: Yeah. Thanks for having me. My Twitter is where I'm most active.So twitter.com/swyx. And you can find my blog at swyx.io to get all my talks and book and whatever else you want to find out about these ideas.Patrick: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show.Swyx: Thanks for having me.

A discussion with international speaker, author, comedic entertainer, partner of Bliss Champions and co-author of "Unlocking Your Purpose" found on Purpose Code.com. Patrick has become one of my all-time favorite people because he lives in a state of bliss. He has found his purpose and he's filled with unlimited peace, joy and love. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. This one is definitely a highlight for me and hits home as I continue my own journey to find my ultimate bliss. Enjoy! Joe Patrick Combs: Connection with Patrick: https://www.facebook.com/patrick.combs "Unlocking You Purpose": purposecode.com Bliss Champions: blisschampions.com Patrick's website: patrickcombs.com/ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: All right. Hey, Patrick Combs, welcome to the podcast. So glad to have you here. Man, I've been waiting for this, as you know, for quite a long time, a few few months now. I think. So I'm   Patrick: Yeah,   Joe: Really excited   Patrick: Thanks,   Joe: To do   Patrick: Joe.   Joe: This. Yeah.   Patrick: As as I have been too excited to be here with you.   Joe: Well, thank you, I appreciate it and I do appreciate your time. I know you're busy, guy. So so what I like to do is, you know, I was very intrigued by us meeting, even though it was all, you know, via the Web. But, you know, I had this opportunity to see you talk to the group that I was in and, you know, learn a little bit more about you. But what's amazing, and you already know this about yourself is your storytelling and all of that. But before we get into all that, I want to kind of give the audience the back story of who you are and where you know your progression, where you came from. And then we're going to talk about all the cool things that are happening today, because I know you have, like me, a lot of irons in the fire, but you have some really unique things. You're working on things that actually, you know, that resonate deeply with me. And that's the connection I have with you. And so I'd like for you to kind of explain, you know, who where you came from, who you are. And then we'll get into the nitty gritty of everything.   Patrick: Ok, that's nice, Joe. Well, I am, I am I was raised by a single mother. In Bend, Oregon, which a lot of people are familiar with these days, because I guess been super big and super nice, but when I was in Bend, it was super nice, but not super big was sixteen thousand people. And I was my mother, a licensed practical nurse, raised my brother and I on a very small salary in high school. We were living in a trailer house, which was no problem. But, you know, let me just sort of sketch and nobody from our family had ever gone to college. But my mom was a pioneer. She was the one from our family tree that was reaching for Moore, and her primary way of doing that was to encourage my brother and I with phrases like Do what you love. Learn to work with your mind. Don't worry about your mistakes, look it up for yourself in the encyclopedias. That's what I bought those damn things for. And so I was the first person from my family to go to college and. In college, it's first at Lewis and Clark College in Portland, Oregon, and then at San Francisco State, I began to really realize that my purpose had something to do with uplifting and performing.   Patrick: And today, I know I'm fifty four and I know my purpose very clearly, it is through performance and story to uplift. And so but but, you know, you're in your 20s, you're trying to figure out what to do with your life. I felt all the calls, all the tugs in the direction of my purpose. And I could not be more grateful that just by by God's grace, I feel so I don't feel very responsible. The older I get, the less responsible I feel for my choices. I just feel grateful for them. But the greatest choice I ever made in my life and I think the first greatest choice I ever made in my life was that I was going to be an inspirational speaker. Come hell or high water is starting at twenty six years old and an author. And so without any connections, without, quote, the appropriate background or credentials or accomplishments, I did that. I became a paid professional, inspirational speaker, and it's twenty five years later and I've spoken all over the place, but there's been a million people that have that have been in front of me and my audience is listening to me waxen. And then along the way, I expect, you know, I took that purpose and and I expanded into other joyful callings, this the the second that I'm the second sort of biggest imprint that I'm known for, I think, is that I created a comedic.   Patrick: Solo comedy show for and I performed it all around the world in theaters. So if you look in broad strokes at me, if you go Patrick Combs, who is this guy and you read my bio and stuff, you you read Hall of Fame, inspirational speaker. You read comedic performer with the smash hit show and an author of five or six time author. So that's what I look like on paper. And behind the scenes, you know, I have just I have I just live doing what I love. That's been the great game of my life to live doing what I love. To place my joy. Even above my my above money, because somehow I knew early on that if I placed money above Joy, I would not end up joyful and probably not even end up healthy. So so today I have a third company and it's called Bliss Champions, and I and my business partner and I help people really lock into that great truth, unlock their purpose and maximize their joy.   Joe: So I have so many questions. OK, first question this is going to speak to well, no, actually, I want to go back to the early part of this, which is you were lucky enough to have a mother that instilled what she did in you with, you know, that positive reinforcement. I think if when I listen to other people talk who had struggles creating the life that they would ultimately wanted, it seems that we trace a lot of that. Back to how you were brought up and what was said to you by your parents. That's the ultimate it seems to be the ultimate catalyst of what you end up becoming. And the people that had an incredible reinforcement and, you know, go ahead, make mistakes, whatever. Follow your dream, follow what you love. All of that stuff. They end up becoming these incredible people and the ones that didn't have that struggle through ridding that from their brains and flushing all of that garbage out and then having to kind of rebuild themselves at a at a, you know, somewhere in the middle, at an older age. And then eventually the hope is that that that   Patrick: Yes,   Joe: Leaves them so   Patrick: Yes and no,   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: Right? So for me, one hundred percent, yes. My mother my mother gave me the foundation. The schemata and the foundation, both the both the sort of the loving, the loving, positive self reinforcement of positive self-esteem. Combined with really great directives, I mean, she was my first Joseph Campbell, right? He   Joe: Hmm   Patrick: Said, follow your   Joe: Hmm,   Patrick: Bliss. And   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: She said, do what you love. But when you when you counter correctly and you don't want to add something to it, when you say, well, and then what if you got negative messages from your parents? Well, you know, that's Howard Stern and that's Bono and that's Oprah. So what I know is the difference between, though, is that because I'm really fascinated with how Howard, this conversation Howard Stern and Bono had once both sharing that. So it seems like if you if you got no love speaking for men specifically, you got no love from your if you're trying to somehow live up to a father that beat you down, seems like tremendous successes often created. But then you have to reckon with why you created it, what foundation it was created upon emotional, psychological foundation. It was created on some point. I think there's a reckoning for all of us in our childhood, you know, to say, hey, no one gets out of their childhood unscathed by the by the inadvertent or accidental mistakes of their parenting or perceived mistakes. No one gets out of that. You know, I came out of my childhood heavily damaged by my mother's suicidal nature. You know, so. I just wanted to sort of add that footnote, Joe.   Joe: Yeah, no, I and I and I look at this sometimes through my own lens, that my mother struggled, you know, her family struggled financially. Her father was an alcoholic, left them her mother had to, you know, take care of them all. And so when she when she was raising us, it was always a very cautious sort of raising. It's like, you know, do something that that makes a living. You know, you get health insurance like a very sort of secure, protective sort of thing. And I think that in my own brain caused me to not necessarily do all that I thought I could do, because I just always felt this this limitation of, you know, you shouldn't do that, you know? And I was pursuing a music career. So I you know, that's very, very hard career path like acting and other things like that. Right. And so so when I when I think about this and we have this conversation, my father was very much would push me to say, go, do you know, do that. But it would be more quiet like my mother took care of us. Right. He was working. So she got the say. And it was like, you can't you just can't go do something like that. You have to take the safer route.   Patrick: Now,   Joe: Right.   Patrick: That's   Joe: So.   Patrick: That's impactful, right,   Joe: Right.   Patrick: That that's your first introduction to the rule book for how to proceed   Joe: Yep.   Patrick: In your life, and you were given the one that said proceed with caution.   Joe: Correct.   Patrick: Boy, that I mean, yeah, I was given the opposite rule book.   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: I really was I was given a very different rulebook, and it that matters, doesn't it?   Joe: Yeah, totally,   Patrick: It matters   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: Until it doesn't matter, as Secretary says, about suffering. Suffering matters and is helpful until it doesn't matter and it's no longer helpful,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Right? So as soon as we wake up to oh shit, that's the rule book I had. Now we're free to grab a different one off the   Joe: Yeah,   Patrick: Shelf.   Joe: Yeah, and it's just whatever that triggers that, you know, and whether that's, you know, reading different things and being around people that, you know, like yourself, that create this this aura of like, no, this there's another way. You know, it's just it's this is one life. Go do it.   Patrick: Right.   Joe: You know, one's around anymore to tell you what to do, especially people that are older. Right. Is just   Patrick: Yeah,   Joe: Go.   Patrick: And there's no safety in playing it safe.   Joe: Right.   Patrick: It would be the rulebook, no safety in playing   Joe: That's   Patrick: It safe. That's   Joe: Hey,   Patrick: The greatest   Joe: That's   Patrick: Risk of all.   Joe: That could be the next title of your next book.   Patrick: Yeah.   Joe: All right, before we get to all that other stuff, so then the next thing that you talked about was the speaking part of it. And I know there's so many people out there and and, you know, they'll definitely be people in my audience that listen to this and and eventually watch the YouTube version of this that look there. They would love to do that sort of thing. And and it's hard to get someone that has had such great success at it like you to where I have you one on one at this moment, say, well, how did you do that? What was the first step? And then what was the part that finally went to something much bigger? And then where you are now, where, you know, the audiences are huge, you're speaking fees. You know, they could be I don't know   Patrick: They're   Joe: What they   Patrick: Big,   Joe: Are, but they're big,   Patrick: They're   Joe: So.   Patrick: Big,   Joe: Right. So   Patrick: Joyfully big.   Joe: Good. So what was the first how did you get into it?   Patrick: So let's I'm going to go fast and I'm going to speak to two different directions, because I heard you very specifically. First, I'm going to go fast on how I got into it. But   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Second, I'm going to couple that, if you don't mind, with what I would do today if I was starving,   Joe: Perfect.   Patrick: Because there are different worlds.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: But what they both have in common is the psychology that's necessary. OK, so let me address the psychology last year, OK? What I did is it twenty six years old, I naively said naively and powerfully, impotently said I want to be a speaker, so I want to be paid at it. So how do I get a paid speaking engagement? And it didn't take much looking to say I have to tell people I'm a paid speaker. So I made I bought a mailing list of every college in the United States, half of half of all colleges in the United States of America, those that were part of an association looking for all kinds of talent. And and then I made an ugly ass flyer and I licked and stamped one thousand two hundred and fifty envelopes and I put them all in the mailbox. And and then I and then I waited for the incoming interest, interested prospects, and I cold called and and failed 40 incoming prospective cold calls, a failed 40 out of 40 of them. And then the universe's magic that is always present will always show up, kicked in. And another lead came in and I followed it up. And after four months of failed, failed calls, I got a yes from black out Black Hawk. Technical college in Wausau, Wisconsin, for one thousand two hundred dollars, total airfare included,   Joe: Wow.   Patrick: And I was off and running.   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: You know, so you can hear both, but you can hear them, you know, the challenge of it and the mechanics of how simple. I somehow intuited. The path to be and I see people overcomplicate marketing all the time, especially in today's world where marketing super sophisticated and you know your call, it looks like you have to be you have a billion followers and all this stuff and none of it's it's rarely ever true.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: So anyhow, if but but I was launching myself as a speaker in 1992 when if you wanted to have a voice in the world and you wanted to be paid for it, there was, you know, a keynote speaking. Was it? You know, I was looking up to the Tom Peters of the world   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: Who are being paid 50000 dollars in and they were like, oh, Jesus, Tom Peters has a job where he gets up in front of people. They pay him to give his opinion and his advice. Jesus, I wanted that so badly. I wanted that so freaking bad. So I went after very directly who would pay me to speak to them and give them advice? Who could I command their attention of and be 100 percent confident? I can tell you something that's beneficial.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: In Wisconsin, as I said, oh, I know what to say to college students because I was there just three years ago and they're not getting the truth about what it takes to to to grab that job you're passionate about and go for it. So and therein lies the the deep psychology of what it takes. It's it's answering a tug on your sleeve from your soul that says you have something to say, you want this and you've and you've got something to say. But the hardest choice. The first three steps are the hardest one is to recognize you got a tug on your sleeve. Your soul is saying, that would be incredible and something is there for us. I believe in that more than I believe in anything in the world. Something in Steven Jobs said it's something inside you intuitively knows what you already want to be. Something inside me intuitively knew I wanted to be on stages, inspiring people, uplifting people to answer that call is difficult. It's hard as hell, only the most courageous. No, only those who find them. Their moment of courage will do it. So you don't there's no such thing as being courageous, there's just being courageous in the right moments. So once you answer that, then the second giant hurdle you got to get over, even in today's world, is what's my message? Because the number one thing, the Powers's speaking career is confidence.   Patrick: That you deserve to be on that stage. And it's hard it's hard to find if you don't know where to look. And so that confidence has to be built on who can I confidently be certain I could make a difference with because of what I know and I've experienced and I've overcome. Twenty six years old, I could not have built a successful speaking career speaking to corporate audiences. Why? I had fantasies about it because Tom Peters was the guy I was looking up to, but I could not find. A firm grant firm ground to stand on, say, I can walk into a corporate audience and tell them what's up. At twenty six now, I haven't worked at a corporation. So so the deepest the second deepest question, the answer for yourself is who come on, just tell me who in front of you. Who do I put in front of you that you go, Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, I can do this. And when you nail that boy, you're like nuclear powered. Now all you've got to do is say, great, how do I tell them I'm available for hire? How do I tell the right people I'm available for hire? But so far in today's world, though, so here's the nuance in today's world, though, Joe, I wouldn't start a keynote speaking career in today's world if I was if I was saying I want to be a speaker,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Because now social media exists because a messenger, I'm a messenger and a messenger. And that just means you got the messages you want to share. So so the messenger and me saw. Oh, well, in 1992, that was stages. If you were the keynote speaker in 2000 and 2001, it's every day on social media.   Joe: Right.   Patrick: And that's where so anybody that, quote, wanted to be a speaker said, no, no, you don't want to be a speaker, you want to be a messenger, constantly sharing your messages and often getting invited to stages in stages. Now look like Zoom's. They look like webinars. They look like 20 minute Ted Ted talks.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: They look like anywhere where you are the authority getting to share your message.   Joe: So let me ask you this, I don't mean to interrupt, but I want to know why, when you first did that speaking when you started on this path, what made you think only three years out of college that you had something to then go back and teach the college kids? What light bulb went off and said, I can go back and explain to them that I'm doing what I love?   Patrick: None of none of my peers, I looked around and none of my peers, all of them that were smarter than me, all of them had better grades than me, even my peers that went to better schools than me, UC Berkeley and Stanford, they all seemed to lack a fundamental understanding that I was benefiting from, which is you should do what you love. Isn't that wild?   Joe: Yeah, it's it's I mean, you're lucky   Patrick: Yeah,   Joe: It's.   Patrick: They they they all seem to have bought into the giant myth or lie or distortion that says you should do what's hot. You should do what you can get. You should do what pays you good money,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: All of which to   Joe: Mm   Patrick: Me   Joe: Hmm.   Patrick: Look like I'm in a casino. Astonishing bullshit. Like, I think one of the greatest blessings God ever gave me was a radar that said, that's inferior bullshit.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: That's not what a great, meaningful life of purpose is built on, it's not built on what's hot on what makes money, you know, on what other people will think is cool. It's built on what your soul thirst to do.   Joe: Yeah, it's it's powerful, it's just, you know, and I just had this conversation with our our friend Chris hey, where I feel like there's I don't I don't know how to even say this, but it feels like we're fixing ourselves later in life. And I wish what you did on that first stage for that, those college kids, we could even go a little earlier in life and and, you know, talk to kids that are I don't know what the age, what the mentality is and what the age group and what they can absorb at a certain age. I don't know that scientific research that's been done, but it would be nice, you know, how sometimes a young kid will see something they'll see   Patrick: It's   Joe: On Michael   Patrick: Happening.   Joe: Jordan?   Patrick: It's   Joe: Yeah,   Patrick: Happening,   Joe: I   Patrick: You   Joe: Just   Patrick: Know.   Joe: Wish we could move it. I feel like we're all trying to fix it now   Patrick: Right,   Joe: In   Patrick: But.   Joe: Midlife where I wish we could move it earlier.   Patrick: What you know, I mean, the role models for today's kids that that are young, that are below 10, they're tremendous   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: Because I have a 12 year old son. And if you've never seen Mr. Beast in, my son loves   Joe: Oh,   Patrick: Mr.   Joe: Yeah, I   Patrick: Beast   Joe: Have   Patrick: And I love Mr. Beast. That's an that's a messenger. That's   Joe: A.   Patrick: An inspirational messenger. Who is role modeling. Hey, you can not only do what's wildly joyful and fun, but you can give your that guy understands giving it a level   Joe: Yeah,   Patrick: That I dream of learning that   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: I dream of embodying. So, you know, every jet I view this next generation as Savea as more enlightened and it's so awesome to see.   Joe: Yeah, I.   Patrick: But Mr. Resum role modeling for my son, you know, I thought I think I'm a role model for my son, that you can do what you love and have an abundant life. And Mr. Beest is better role model. You know, Mr. B gets it earlier and at a level that's in almost incomprehensible,   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: You know.   Joe: Yeah, well, OK, so you've talked about the speaking part of it, and then how about a little bit about the one man show, because that was a really interesting story to me about   Patrick: Ask me   Joe: How   Patrick: A question,   Joe: That came about.   Patrick: Would you benefit me with a question?   Joe: Well, I want to know, like what I remember the story, how you saw it on TV and a trigger, you were like, I want to do that. Like when you said, I want to create this show. And just that one night in that hotel room that triggered it all for you, just like that, you're still on stage, but it's a step in a completely different direction.   Patrick: Yeah, thank you, Joe. OK, so then let me think about. Making the super relevant for anybody listening. OK, so what's really remarkable to me is that we can be successful. So maybe someone's listening to say, I love my life. I like my life. I'm Ahmad, I'm successful, and you're just clapping along and you're saying, oh, yeah, I got this. I couldn't be happier for you, but I want to I want to tell you a true story from my life about when I felt that way, but I wasn't. But I wasn't. But there was something much bigger that was tugging at my sleeve that was very hard to acknowledge. So I was this quote, by my standards, very successful speaker all over the country, whatever. And then but. There was this secret unrealized ambition, Joe, and you haven't you haven't heard this sort thing, and the secret unrealized ambition was to be a story teller in the theater, just the only guy on stage, enthralling and entertaining an audience and making them laugh with just a personal story from my life. This and this was a dream that came to me that was inspired. It's not a dream. It's this was a. A soul calling. That I felt when I was about, oh, twenty two or twenty three years old, because it even before I became a speaker, my girlfriend took me to a theater, not a movie theater. And we watched Spalding Gray, a legendary theater performer, just tell us a story for an hour and a half from behind his desk. And I walked out of that theater, Joe, and I turned to my girlfriend in her old 1964 Rambler. And I said, thank you for bringing to me that that was amazing. And she said, Oh, yeah, he's so great, isn't he? I said, I looked her in the eyes. I said. Now, that was unbelievable,   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: I said what I would give to do that. Because I thought I just seen the best thing a human being could ever do with their life and, you know, and this woman who loved me very much and meant nothing harmful by it responded. Yeah, but you'd have to be funny. Bakersfield was super funny, and what she didn't know is, is that was like shooting an arrow accidentally right through the chink in my armor because I heard it and said, oh, yeah, what was I thinking? I just sat in there with a master. And I'm not funny and I'm not even good storyteller, so I'm just sitting here in this 1964 Rambler having myself a pipe dream. I can't do that what he just did, he made it look effortless because he's a master and so I built a speaking career, which I very, very, very much love, but I still had this secret, unrealized ambition in it. 30, what you were referring to is at 33 years old. Well, another theatre performer had come on the scene, a named John Leguizamo. And John Leguizamo was in my book was Spalding Gray Times 10. And no disrespect to Spalding Gray, the creator of the medium. But but where Spalding Gray sat behind a desk, John Leguizamo tore up use the entire stage became 18 different characters, male, female, young or old, and was 10 times funnier in my book. So he came on.   Patrick: I was there in a hotel room and he has his HBO special came on. And I've never felt worse about my. In some way about my sort of career self and, well, this really I got this horrible, horrible ache pain in my solar plexus, and it was the pain of fear, of paralysis, of envy, of self-loathing. Because what? Because it was this swirling ball of hell in my stomach that said, I love what this man is doing and I want it so bad for myself, but it's impossible for me to get to because it's it's. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to ever do what I dream of doing. And and that was that was the that was my fear of not doing it. You know, built up for 10 years is, as we like to say in my business, Bliss Champions. Your purpose left on, attended to becomes a purpose, curse becomes a curse. And so on that hotel room bed, I felt the curse and the pain. And fortunately, I grabbed for a pad of paper and I wrote at the top, what are you so afraid of? And I started freeriding. And I wrote all these fears, you'd expect them looking bad, looking stupid, being awful, wasting my time, you know, wasting money, taking away from my really good speaking career. And then in the end, I wrote something that really surprised me. I'm afraid I won't be as great as John Leguizamo or Spalding Gray.   Patrick: And when I wrote that sentence. It like took the lid off of something super dark and evil in me, because when I saw that sentence in the light of day, I never realized that was one of my fears. It looked absurd. I laughed out loud at the absurdity of I have never told and I've never even attempted what they've done and yet. And yet the reason why I'm not going for it is because I not I might I'm comparing myself to the greatest human beings on planet Earth at this craft. And it just struck me as ridiculous, and then a voice came into my mind, a thought that I never had before, couldn't you just do it for fun? And the weight of the world was lifted off that secret, unrealized ambition, me, who's so success minded, had never thought of just doing it for the sake of fun, the pleasure of I should try that. Who cares if I fail? And that was my ginormous breakthrough on my greatest bliss ever. And so I so I started doing it for fun shortly after that. And to make a long story short, for 15 years, I toured with my one person solo show. I and this is a metric I care about, but is not why I did the show. I did the show for the love of doing the show, for   Joe: Hmm.   Patrick: The love of learning to do the show, for the love of hearing audiences laugh. But in the end, what blows my mind is a hundred thousand people bought tickets to see my show. Hundred thousand people sat in my audience for 15 years. I had a red carpet tour of the theater world and today it's being made into a Hollywood movie.   Joe: It's amazing.   Patrick: Right.   Joe: And it's incredible.   Patrick: So.   Joe: So what you said or you said, why not just do it for fun if someone's in the same spot that you are in that hotel room, when you were watching him perform on that HBO special, would you say that that's a good starting point for some people who just can't seem to to to do that thing that they so want to do as it just. Is that a good trigger? I don't know if that's the right thing,   Patrick: It   Joe: But   Patrick: Is.   Joe: Is that OK?   Patrick: In Bliss Champions, we've learned we've got a real extraordinary map for for these for these kind of we call them bliss journeys, going into speaking was a blitz journey for me. A journey to follow my bliss. Going into the theater was a journey to follow my bliss. Writing a book was a journey to follow my bliss. So we've got a really detailed map. And what's surprising is the biggest pitfall we know of on the map is the desire to monetize what's possible to use to Zoom to early. So   Joe: Interesting.   Patrick: You think of your bliss, right, and then immediately society is trained us to think, but how will you make money at that?   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: And that kills more bliss journeys. The two biggest killers of all blessed journeys is not getting started and trying to monetize to even think about monetizing too soon. So they're the antidote to monetizing too soon is forget about monetizing. Do it for fun. Do it for fun. The benefit is Joy.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: The benefit is fun fund, the benefit is aliveness, then the benefit is ball in motion, and momentum has to be included in anybody's realistic formula of great success. Momentum is one of the major ingredients of great success. So as long as you're sitting around not doing something, trying to figure out how you how you can guarantee success on it, you got no momentum. You got nothing.   Joe: Yeah, yeah, that's   Patrick: So, yeah, just do it for fun.   Joe: I love it,   Patrick: That's my mantra now, Joe, is   Joe: I love it.   Patrick: Is I don't wake up my career and figure out how to do things for money, I wake up and I figure out how to do things for joy and the money. I mean, you know, I care about money. I make good money. But the money is and is a secondary thought. It is the longest money has that rightful positioning in my life, it's secondary,   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Like once I once I figured out what's joyful to me and I've got emotion in it, we can figure out how to monetize it. No problem. You know what we teach English champions. If you can't monetize your your most blissful activity, don't blame it on your bliss. Blame it on your on your business skills. And you don't have to blame it on your business skills, you just have to know it's not my bliss that I can't monetize. I don't have to change my bliss or forgo my bliss. I have to learn to monetize.   Joe: Yeah, it's you hit it on the head and it's a it's amazing how many people have such great talents, great ideas, great aspirations, and it's just that putting that one foot in front of the next one. And the one thing I think you hit it right on the head is just how I can make a living at that. How can I do that? And it's it's it would be so cool if people just did it for the fun of it and then the joy and what they bring to other people, all of that other stuff the universe delivers because it just realizes that's what you were meant to do. Right. It's just.   Patrick: Yeah.   Joe: Well, so you mentioned Bliss Champions, you know, throughout this conversation. And I think this is the appropriate time now to sort of clue in because, again, we're we're limited on time and I have a million things. So let's talk about this champions. So I would like to know I ran across it just because once we got off that call where you were teaching us how to tell the story, you know, tell our story and a very creative way, I then was doing all my own research and I said, who is this guy? Man, I love the way he talks. And I can tell that there's just something about him in his soul that's on fire. And I want to know more about it. And then it took me to Blessed Champion. So I'd like for you to explain to the audience what this champion is, what it does, what you know, how, and then we'll put in the show links all of the other stuff to get in touch with you. But I you know, to explain what it what its purpose is would be awesome.   Patrick: Ok, well, I'll give you I'll give you us a scoop, Joe Torre, I don't know when you're going to publish this. I actually should ask you, when are you going to publish this? Probably.   Joe: I can do it whenever.   Patrick: Ok, well, you   Joe: I do   Patrick: Know.   Joe: What a week, normally I can postpone this, I can I can   Patrick: Ok, well, look, in   Joe: Do   Patrick: About   Joe: It tomorrow.   Patrick: In about one in about one week, two weeks tops, we're going to announce our brand new book   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: And I'm so excited about it. It is the conversation we're having. So I'm going to tell you the first person I'm going to tell, it's called "Purpose Code", How to "Unlock Your Purpose", maximize your joy, astound yourself and if someone says, oh, jeez, I am interested in this free report we made about it, which is the 10 reasons why people don't unlock their purpose and go to purposecode.com. So no one knows that website exists yet. So.   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: So but they're going to find out first through going to purposecode.com.   Joe: I love   Patrick: So   Joe: It.   Patrick: Bliss Champions. Bliss Champions, so the surprising thing, Joe, is in, you tell me how much you've seen as I can't believe how much I've seen, it's shocking to me is how many successful business owners there are. Who are lacking joy. These are people I'm telling you, like Mega Millions dream home, not one dream car in the driveway, as many as they desire looked up to by all their peers and all their employees. Happy that they built the business, happy they overcame all this stuff and made it to the top, but their deepest secret. Is something's missing. And so my business partner was one of those guys, you know, he cashed out for 50 million bucks. And still, something was missing. So his story is quite remarkable. He's not here, so we won't tell it, but but. As you saw, so he both knew it through personal experience and sitting in on groups like on the IS. Know, as the entrepreneurs organization, you got to be a successful entrepreneur to qualify to get in. Well, one of the first things that my business partner saw up close and personal through that organizations, wow, so many people here have secret unrealized ambitions that they're not going for because somehow they're successful business.   Patrick: Has it been a little bit of a bind? And somehow along the way, while they were flexing their entrepreneurial muscles. They their their muscles for joy and bliss atrophied or were never developed, and so we both inherently understood how much impact if you can shift a person at the top of an organization to be joyful, they will spread. They will spread that message through the entire organization. Leaders that lead from Joy and that follow their bliss want everybody to follow their bliss and maximize their joy. That is the you can't be living joyfully and blissfully, truly without wanting to spread joy and bliss. It's impossible. Love, it's impossible for love to not desire to spread love. So. So. Bliss Champions is our remedy, it's we're four years into into seeking out and accepting individuals who who are successful but know something is missing. They don't know how to figure out what what is missing in what would be in their lexicon, a smart move, because they're used to everything being, quote, smart, right. What would be a good, smart, legitimate move that would bring them more joy? And we're experts at that. We help them unlock their purpose, because once you know exactly what your purpose is and you can put it in words, you have a true north and you not now you don't make missteps.   Patrick: And then but once you unlock your purpose, then then the great opportunity is to feel great, you know what your purpose is, what bliss journey should you take up? And there's a lot of choices. So you have to have good decision making structure. So we call ourselves Bliss Sherpa's because we've been up and down the on our own bliss journeys through our whole lives. That's that's been the blessing of our lives. We know the territory. We know the mistakes. We know the pitfalls. We know where where people quit and why they quit. So we Sherpa people up on blissful journeys and all of our secrets to doing that, that we've you know, I've been on I've been Sherpa and I've been a Sherpa for people following their passion and living their dreams and following their bliss for twenty five years. And Eric has been doing it for an equal amount of time as a CEO of large organizations. So this is why I'm so thrilled that we wrote a book together on it and the book's called "Purpose Code". And all of our secrets are in that book.   Joe: That's great, it is was there some momentous occasion that how are you and Eric connected?   Patrick: Yeah, Eric cashed out for millions of dollars, and he and the day after he cashed out and he went to lay in by his pool, just view overlooking his wine estate. He was rushed to the hospital and almost died from   Joe: Uh.   Patrick: Poor health while he was laying in that hospital bed contemplating his mortality. He realized I didn't finish the job of my purpose. And he knew that Eric's always known I've known Eric twenty five years, Eric has always known his purpose is to help other people, is to help is to inspire himself to live joyfully and to take that inspiration and spread it to other people. This is the thing about purpose. Here's a lesson and purpose. Your purpose is, first and foremost, what selfishly brings you joy. And you can't support your purpose if you're looking for if you're looking outside of yourself for where to save the world, you will you'll you won't see it when you say, look, it's just selfish. Something inside me always, you know, is always finds joy when I'm in this direction, when I'm doing this kind of activity, I'm my best self. Once you identify where your best self, what you'll see is then that when you give yourself that gift, you automatically give it to others and desire to give it to others. And that's where your purpose becomes a service to the world. So so, Eric, figure it out, man, you know, I I've always been living my purpose, but I slipped off track. While I was going on flexing his entrepreneurial muscles and going on this incredible monetary tear.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: And so he got out of the hospital, began working on his health and called me up and said, let's start list champions. There's a there's a he said there's you know, the one thing you and I have always been united on is wanting to help people follow their bliss.   Joe: Now, that's really crazy. That's.   Patrick: And the reason why I said yes is because I had hidden from my bliss for 10 years in in fear, right, my secret ambition seemed   Joe: Yeah.   Patrick: Impossible. And so I knew the cost of doing that. I knew the falsehood of doing that. And I and I knew that I knew the tremendous pressures that await anybody on the other side of finally finding the wherewithal to   Joe: But.   Patrick: Do it. And so, as I said, once you've experienced that kind of joy and bliss and truth, you want to share it with others. You want to say, like, I'll show you where your greatest life is and society just doesn't it just doesn't have enough messages. You know, it's societies has too many messages about smart, about practical, about money, about status. And all that stuff comes with following your bliss. But it can't be it can't be the deciding factors or you won't know where your bliss is calling you to.   Joe: Yeah, it's like we have it backwards, it's like the cart before the horse, right. And if we can just flip it, it's everything just sort of opens up and through Bliss Champions, you help people to work through this. And then ultimately the goal would be is is it a week long?   Patrick: It's a six it's a six month program.   Joe: Six month program, so.   Patrick: Yes, it's a month program, people apply to get in.   Joe: A.   Patrick: We we we work with seven people at a time, cohorts of super small seven. So it's super individual. And and then it culminates after six months of coaching and masterminding, it culminates in our super, super specialty. We take you to Bliss Island, which is in Hawaii where we own the property and we run an extraordinary five day retreat to try to really launch our our participants and into their bliss.   Joe: Yeah, it's incredible. I   Patrick: It's   Joe: Love   Patrick: Fun,   Joe: It.   Patrick: It's   Joe: You   Patrick: Super   Joe: Know you   Patrick: Fun.   Joe: Know that I love it. I just   Patrick: Yeah.   Joe: One of these days I'm going to be a blessed champion and I'll have to figure that out. But sooner than later,   Patrick: Now, we've   Joe: I'm   Patrick: Launched   Joe: Not.   Patrick: We launched Authors', we've launched we've taken people that that thought this isn't a this isn't worth a book. And now they're published on the best publishers on Earth and they've got a multi thing deal with one guy has only he said his bliss was motorcycle's writing Harlesden. He thought, what can I do with that, that you can't monetize that? And and now he has one of the only dealership licenses in the country to rent Harley's and take people on Harley tours, Harley Bike Tours.   Joe: Mm   Patrick: He   Joe: Hmm.   Patrick: Has his own Harley bike tour dealership. We've taken CEOs who had giant companies but weren't happy and now they're super joyful, super happy. Their marriages are better. And they're and in addition to running their company, they're joyfully doing this thing they always dreamed of doing. They're they're more amplified, express self. So our stories sound like that, you know.   Joe: Yeah, that's great. So how can someone find out about this champions and how do they go about doing what they need to to become a part of that program?   Patrick: Well, let's I'm going to answer that really quickly and then let's go to a different territory, if   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: You don't mind, OK, because I don't want someone listening to this. I'm looking at the clock here and I think that we have about 12 minutes. And I   Joe: I   Patrick: Like   Joe: Just   Patrick: To maximum   Joe: Want to I think   Patrick: My.   Joe: It's amazing. I wanted to   Patrick: Thanks.   Joe: Give it its time because I   Patrick: Well,   Joe: Think   Patrick: Everybody   Joe: It's, you know.   Patrick: Everybody should start "Purpose Code", because the biggest value that they can get right away is truly to read this report that I wrote. And it's called "The Ten Things That Stop People From Unlocking Their Purpose". You got to know, how come I don't know my purpose? What am I missing here? So go to purposecode.com and just grab that free report.   Joe: Perfect.   Patrick: And then and then it'll it'll lead you to learning about Bliss Champions. It's an application process. I would love people to apply. It's free to apply, you know, and then we individually interview you get to know you and and we have all kinds of ways to serve. And   Joe: Perfect.   Patrick: You can get the book in your hands.   Joe: Ok,   Patrick: But   Joe: Cool.   Patrick: But let's let's let's see how many more how much more insider. Something super helpful we can pack into the last ten minutes here.   Joe: Perfect. So I have something that I totally wanted to ask you that if you can put it in an understandable layman's terms where it doesn't come across as being overly spiritual and fufu. But you talk about being present in so many people these days are talking about that. But I love watching your talks. When you you know, you're out doors taking a walk and you have your phone and you talk about it. But how do you put it in and like everyday   Patrick: Layman's   Joe: Terms   Patrick: Terms,   Joe: For it? Yeah,   Patrick: Yeah,   Joe: Because, you   Patrick: Yeah.   Joe: Know, everybody looks at and go, wait a second, you want me to sit in silence for ten minutes, meditate, or you want me   Patrick: I   Joe: To   Patrick: Don't write.   Joe: All of those things to pull yourself back in, to be centered, to have, you know, hold space for yourself, all these things. And it's just so hard these days. We're getting bombarded from all sides. So because of you and how you can communicate these things, I want to know from you what being president means and how someone could practice it on a daily basis   Patrick: Ok.   Joe: Where it's not this.   Patrick: You're   Joe: This.   Patrick: Making me. You're making me super happy because now you're bringing up my next favorite subject.   Joe: Perfect.   Patrick: So   Joe: Awesome.   Patrick: So I. I am both deeply spiritual about this, but but there's no need to talk about it in that way because I didn't approach it that way. I just approached it from man, I need I need a different way to do my life. And I found that different way to do my life. And it was the most revolutionary, impactful, beneficial thing I've ever learned or done in my life. And so you'll see me spend the majority of the rest of my life has boiled down to two two things. Two things on one hand, follow your bliss. And we've been talking about why, why, because it's your bliss, it will bring you bliss and, you know, as we say in Bliss Champions sometimes. Is there something better than BLIS because BLIS means perfect happiness? So what are you looking for if you're not looking for perfect happiness? So but in follow your bliss, there's a doing this to it, right? It's it's OK. We don't similar, but there is another path to bliss. And so I have a right hand and a left hand strategy to life in my right hand because I love having a career. I love to have something to do every day. I love making, you know, while having a career. I follow my bliss and in my left hand, I, I. Nowhere Bliss's without doing anything, I know how to find BLIS every single day of my life, no matter.   Patrick: What happens, no matter the circumstances, no matter the hardships, no matter the challenges, I know where bliss is, even in storms. So my career could not be going well, but in my left hand, I still know where Joy is every single day and how to get there in a concrete fashion. So that to me, my this left hand strategy I'm talking about that you brought up that I call a presence practice. That's where it sits in my life. So. Let's see, it's a good window into this. I'm taking a little quiet space for it to find me. Why would someone want to practice presence? Because what I didn't know I was well into my 40s, Joe, and I had never once wielded the word ego. And and up until the point when I got a new definition and it became very meaningful to me, Igoe to me meant don't be egotistical. It meant, oh, or you have a healthy ego. It takes a healthy ego. That's all I thought of ego when I was in. And then, to be honest with you, I hit a rock bottom in my life sometime in my 40s, my ego, the my shadow self, my bad behavior, the worst of me. The worst of me put me in a position where I were where I was at my rock bottom, and I thought to myself, there's got to be a better way.   Patrick: And I reached for there had been a book sitting on my cell for a long time that I had no interest in. It was called.    "The Power of Now", Eckard Tolle. And I grabbed this book and it re educated me and it re informed me and it completely transformed my life. The book didn't transform my life as much as my adherence to what the book said for the next seven years on a daily basis transformed my life. It did it very quickly, but I was so in love with what I was discovering that that I just kept being a diligent student of what Eckhart Tolle calls presence. OK, so in a very short amount of time, here's what I would love somebody to experiment with on this call that is non-spiritual. The only thing that is ever causing you a bad feeling. Is your thoughts? Now, so I had to wrap my mind around that first experiment with that, because I used to believe, no, I'm having a bad feeling because this shitty thing happened. And I was positive that was true. Until I wasn't until I began to say, wait a minute, is there a buffer in me that's causing the pain, not the situation, this is easily answered, but you should but everybody should try it on. That's life changing, because what if situations and bad circumstances are not causing you bad feelings? What if it's what you think about those bad circumstances, how often you think about those bad circumstances that are causing you a bad feeling? OK, for instance.   Patrick: I want to talk about the pandemic and then I'll talk about the pandemic, for instance, the day that it's announced that we're going to be in quarantine for however long, an indeterminate amount and 20, 20 people in the world had multiple possibilities for a thought about it. Somebody sitting in their home could have taken that news and began thinking all kinds of really bad thoughts that, hey, are well justified. I'm not here to argue with the with the with whether that thought is justified. But somebody could have been sitting there thinking, this is awful. I might lose my job. I like going outside now. I can't going outside. What are the implications of not going outside? What if I'm in my house forever? What if I get covid-19? What if my friends get covered and I die? What if they never leave? The governor is terrible. The president is terrible. The vaccine is terrible. Was it made in the lab? Those thoughts are causing in a bad and negative emotions in the body. And what if and some people thought those every hour of every day. Not not by choice, but by by habituated pattern of their mind, getting to think without ever being safety, without ever any but any other force saying hold on.   Joe: Mm hmm.   Patrick: Do we want to think like this 24/7? Is it serving us? OK, but equally to lots of people did that. So lots of people had horrible emotions. And I'm not saying don't do that, I'm just saying be aware that's why you had horrible emotions. What didn't happen is the pandemic is the the announcement the pandemic did not reach into anybody's body invisibly and say you now feel bad. Outside circumstances cannot reach in your body and and flip switches and say you feel bad. They cannot be the cause. If only a fox can be the cause, equally so and wildly true, unbeknownst to me just six years ago, but now perfectly known to me and the most exciting thing I've ever learned is some people heard the news of the pandemic. And fought and fought like this. Oh. We're going to go into quarantine. Now with to wash the dishes. And didn't have further thoughts about it until there was more news or until those thoughts were necessary. And didn't feel negative emotions, or if they did feel the negative emotions, only felt them for as long as that emotion lasted, while it wasn't being sustained by unchecked, unreasonable, insane, incessant thinking. So a president's practice is simply, well, on one hand, a presence practices the deep recognition that circum negative circumstance circumstances don't cause you upset your thoughts about them do and your ego. Ego should be defined as when when you're not thinking your thoughts, they're thinking you. And you don't even know it. So I learned to not be the crazy guy, the insane guy who is washing dishes, who is physically washing dishes, but who mentally in my mind for 15, 20, 30 minutes is having an imaginary argument that I'm winning with somebody else.   Patrick: I learned to not be that guy, I learned that I that I was concerned that we're all constantly that guy. And that you don't have to be that you can wash dishes while you wash dishes. And that if you do so, here's what I promise you, because I know from experience, if you learn to quiet, to say presence means I'm not going to be in the future, I'm not going to be in hallucinatory future scenarios. I'm not going to let my mind run off to hallucinatory past scenarios. I'm not going to hallucinate about the future. I'm not going to hallucinate about the past because those can only be hallucinations or call them imaginations. You cannot make the future real. You cannot make the past real. The only real is ever. But you can find through your five senses. So presidents practice means live in the real more often. Want to think about something, think about what you're doing. Be what you're doing. Washing dishes, wash the dishes. If you're working on your book, work on your book, if you're talking to another person, talk to another person. If you're watching the birds in your yard, watch the birds in your yard. So here's the let me give this for me, the big wild finish, first of all, if that's all I ever knew and I figured out how to do that six years ago without any other further teachings, I would be right where I am today.   Patrick: I and these are not light sentences to me, these are the greatest revelations of my life piece. A profound sense of constant peace, a profound sense of joy for no reason and a loving feeling. You know, that filled what I used to have this black hole of, gee, I wish I could get more love. And now I have a fountain of love that just comes from inside me for no reason, peace, love and joy for no reason are what automatically and guaranteed come from being present doesn't require meditation. It requires noticing that your thoughts are running rampantly out of your control and you can distance yourself from them. And then once you distance yourself from them, you can I I like to call them the roommate, you can notice your thoughts are not you? They are a crazy roommate that's always stirring up shit in your head and never stops talking. And you are not that roommate. And you can move that roommate to the garage in the day you move. And it doesn't happen in a day the more you put that roommate in the garage. One hundred percent, peace, joy, love, for no reason other than you moved your roommate to the garage and. Miracles will begin manifesting in your life. For some reason, the entire universe is more capable then of coming to support your happiness.   Joe: It's incredible. I just I can sit and talk with you all day, and we've already gone over our man. I could just I literally could sit here and then do this. So before we leave this one subject, I think it's important. Is there is there any sort of when you talk about the practice, is there any little tidbit of how someone can do that in the simplest way? Because I think everyone gets bogged down with all of the things that are just, you know, for example, we talk about meditation. Is this hard? I mean, I used to get up every day that I made it a promise that I wouldn't do anything until I just put my headphones on, put the app on on my iPhone, turn. Everything else also wouldn't be interrupted and just did it. And I felt like that was my most productive. Let's say it was a year that I did it straight. I haven't done it in so long. I feel like I got to get back to it. I can do it like I don't mind meditating. But first there are people that will never do that. So what is of super   Patrick: I'm   Joe: Super   Patrick: One of those   Joe: Simple.   Patrick: People that doesn't matter to me.   Joe: Ok,   Patrick: I was one of those people that will never meditate,   Joe: Ok.   Patrick: And I'm really happy to say that that both are fantastic choices, whichever you feel called to clearly. And they both lead to the same way. But if someone if if in some crazy really hypothetical, I can tell when I'm saying something stupid, I'm saying something stupid. But in some crazy, stupid hypothetical situation, it's a pattern. You have to choose one for the world meditation or presence practice. I would say we got to go with presence practice. It's easier. OK, so, yes, I have two things that are really simple and super practical and bless you for asking Joe the number one thing and and wildly enough this what I'm about to say is the prescription and the advice of seemingly every great. Teacher, you know, on the planet, that's that is spiritual and it's it's to be conscious of of one single breath. So at any point in time you go, Oh, I want to do it. I want to try this president's practice. You would simply take a one breath and be aware of that of your breathing for one breath. And your awareness, you can shift around, you just say, look, my job is to be aware that I'm having this breath so that for you that might mean, oh, I'm going to focus on the feeling of the air. Coming into my body and exhaling from my body. Or you might say, I'm going to become aware of the feeling of my body expanding and contracting, or you might you're awareness might say I'm going to be aware of the sound of my breath. Doesn't matter one conscious breath because it is impossible to be conscious of your breathing and think a thought at the same time. But conscious breath is both a great it's a great present to practice because it will be difficult for most people at the beginning of their journey to complete one conscious breath without becoming aware. Fuck, I   Joe: No,   Patrick: Started   Joe: That's right.   Patrick: Thinking. I started thinking during I, my mind got off the leash and started thinking something halfway into that breath. And so that's the great teacher one because that's OK. That's a president's practice of presidents. Practice isn't isn't stopping all thoughts. It's becoming aware. Are of the thoughts of the roommate. It's becoming you're you're you're winning when you go to the roommate came in and started talking shit while I was trying to take a breath. So that's called a wake, that's a state of a weakness that in as long as you're awake to your thoughts, peace, love, joy and miracles will begin pouring into your life. Mark my words. So but as you will practice that, too, you can take a conscious breath without thinking on most given days. Wonderful. OK, the second practice, right, is that built my life on this. Is. Step number one, notice when you're feeling anything that's bad. The only thing this doesn't apply to is physical pain. OK, so I want disabled people to eliminate physical pain. It can be applied to physical plant pain, but let's just say that's an advanced course. OK, but the step number one, the most important step is to notice, oh, I'm feeling upset in any way. And there should only be one word. It would be helpful if if people change and said there's only one word now we're going to throw out all these different various words hate, depression, loneliness, sadness, grief, worry, overwhelm, stress, anxiety, who cares? Fear.   Patrick: They all deserve really one word. Suffering. They're all a form of suffering, so notice the next time that you're suffering a negative emotion. Boom. Now there's a great opportunity for step number two, OK? And usually when you notice this, what's fascinating is you'll have been feeling it for a long time. That's how long it takes for awareness to come in and say, well, I'm feeling something bad here, but I did this very for at least a year and I got to choose my life. So first, I know I have a bad feeling. Step number two is built on the awareness we already learned. Every bad feeling began with a thought that was against something happening. Every bad feeling is caused by a thought that always follows the same structure. This shouldn't be happening to me. This shouldn't be happening. OK, so when you have a bad feeling, like you're like a person trying to defuse a bomb before it really blows up, and so you trace the wires knowing at the other end of the wire there will be a fire. You had a thought at the other end of those wires that was something about you thought it shouldn't be happening. Let me give you some examples. He or she should have spoken to me like that. I should have gotten that job. I shouldn't have gotten that. There should be more money in my bank account. There should be a different president there. There. That guy shouldn't be president.   Patrick: That shouldn't have happened through my television screen. I shouldn't be in this condition. I shouldn't have that ailment. I shouldn't have this pressure. I shouldn't have been raised that way. I shouldn't. So all you're doing is tracing those wires to what did I think shouldn't be? As it is. That was the source of your pain. Now, once you have that, the third step is to take that shouldn't it shouldn't have. And. See if you can find any part of yourself and you always can. It's harder at first that says. I can allow that it. That it is that way and you're why your justification, why can you allow that it is that way can always be. Sanity because. It is. That way. And as soon as you accomplish any ability to allow that, what you are against, to just allow that, it is it's even if it's temporary allowance, it's not saying I'm OK with that person being president forever. It's not an allowance of forever. It's I'm OK. I can allow that. That person is president. Currently, because they are. So you just looking for this momentary allowance of what all spiritual teachers say of what is to be against and I love it when they point out to be against what is is insanity. Because. I'm against that this can exist really, because it exists. Could you allow that it exists? I can allow that exist, why? Because it does exist, right?   Joe: So, so far   Patrick: Right   Joe: Of.   Patrick: Now, it's not a total acceptance of and I and I can I'm and I'm allowing that these cans will exist for forever. It's not saying that. Can you allow that exist right now? At first, you'll hear your ego go, no, I hate that can. But can you allow that it exists right now is anything. Yeah, why does it exist right now? And   Joe: The.   Patrick: And all all the it shouldn't exist or they shouldn't exist. It shouldn't exist. You can do that for 12 years. Twenty four, seven years can will still exist.   Joe: It's just.   Patrick: So if you can allow that, it exists. You have accomplished. A presence practice, because presence will what will happen next will always happen, you will feel better and you'll notice how I feel. I'm returning to peace. And once you accomplish returning to peace, you'll notice or I just feel in general more love, and then after a while you'll notice, someday you'll take a measure of your life, you'll say, is my lecture. If I say my life's joyful all the time everywhere. Why? Because you moved your roommate, your ego to the ground.   Joe: Oh, it's awesome.   Patrick: Now, there's a fourth final step to that, and I think of it as advanced, but so sometimes it's hard and sometimes it's easy, but it's super fun. The fourth step, the third step was, can you allow that? Something is what it is. And the fourth possibility is can you embrace. That it is what it is. Is there anything in you that could embrace that could say not only can I allow the can is there, but I can embrace that the can is there and you can see why that's a harder step because something you were previously just totally against, could you embrace it? Now, it's a that's a different sort of class, it's not complicated, but it takes more words, my journey towards learning to embrace things I was previously against. But I'll tell you, like some of the greatest revelations of your life come when you learn to embrace everything. Everything's.   Joe: It's really powerful, man

How does a guy who used to sell fighter jets move on to build an Ecommerce company that sells single-blade razors? It’s an interesting question with an even more interesting answer, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Patrick Coddou tells the tale, and gives some insights into the world of Ecommerce along the way. Patrick is the founder and CEO of Supply, and even though the company has been in business since 2015, has seen 80% of its total profits have come in over just the last several months. So what’s Patrick’s secret? In today’s interview, Patrick dives into the nitty-gritty of what changed, including how he finally discovered exactly what profit margins he — and most companies — need to hit in order to achieve sustained success. Learn what that number is and more, on this episode.  Main Takeaways: Always Be Testing: To achieve the best user experience and optimize sales, you need to constantly test new ideas. Whether it’s pop-ups to showcase new items, implementing a legacy program, or experimenting with video, you learn something new every time you test. Plus, sometimes the failed tests are even more valuable than the successful ones.    It’s All About the Margins: Businesses live and die based on their gross margins. If you are not charging enough and/or pay too much to have your products made, you’re putting an unnecessary financial strain on your business that could break it. Riding the Ecommerce Waves: There is a ton of volatility in the Ecommerce industry. In order to achieve sustained success, companies need to be nimble and able to adapt to the changing tides. Keep overhead low, focus on your P&L and build processes that allow you to make quick shifts when needed. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome to another episode of Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles and today on the show, we have the founder of Supply, Patrick Coddou. Patrick, welcome. Patrick: Thank you for having me. Stephanie: Yeah, we're excited to have you on. I was doing a little bit of LinkedIn stalking and your background... At first, when I stumbled on your LinkedIn, I'm like, "Is this the right guy?" I saw a background in selling fighter jets and I wanted to start there with you of kind of like a little bit of your background before you founded Supply. Patrick: Sure. So I spent my education as a mechanical engineering and before starting this company, I spent eight and a half years in the corporate world. I worked in the aerospace industry and in particular I worked on military aircraft. We make some fighter aircraft here in Fort Worth, Texas where I'm from. Stephanie: Very cool. And what does that look like behind the scenes of working on aircraft? I saw that you did, I think an $8 billion deal. So I want to hear a little bit more details around that. Patrick: Yes. I worked on it. It would be very, very arrogant of me to claim that I was responsible for that deal. Yeah. So in general, and I'm happy to go deeper if you want to, but in general, the US government works with foreign militaries to arm and equip them with certain pieces of equipment that we think that are necessary for them to have and to support interoperability between allies. So one of those aircraft was called the F-35. And I think the deal you're talking about was maybe the deal with South Korea we did probably five or six years ago where the US government sold, I don't remember how many, 60, 70 aircraft to South Korea. Patrick: So that was a really phenomenal experience getting to fly there and negotiate with our partners over in South Korea and spent a lot of time kind of immersing myself in their culture. Just a cool, cool thing to be a part of. So I learned a lot there, but at the same time was ready to get out when I left. Stephanie: Yeah. So let's hear a little bit about you're almost a decade at, I think Lockheed Martin and you're starting to get the entrepreneurial itch. So what was happening while you were there and what had you make the jump. Patrick: Yeah. So as outrageously cool as the subject matter was of what I worked on in my previous life, it was... As awesome as the subject was, it was as equally terrible to work in a corporate environment like that one for me personally. Not for everybody, but for me. And especially working with the US government. Just procedures and processes and just layers of bureaucracy. It just led to boredom and frankly anxiety and depression personally. Just wanting to be fulfilled in my work and not finding the ability to be so in what I was doing. Patrick: I tend to plan and think ahead a lot. When I visualize the future of my life there, it was like I could literally see myself sitting at the same desk like doing the same things that I had been doing for like the next 30 years of my life. For years, I wasn't raised as an entrepreneur. I don't really have that in my family. I didn't know the first thing about starting a business, but for years I was always thinking about kind of what is kind of my path out of this life and kind of into the next one. Patrick: I always had ideas and never really kind of jumped on them because I wasn't a risk taker, I was an engineer. Taking risk was the furthest thing from what I was used to. And I finally have this idea for a razor that I wanted to invent, and we can kind of get into that if we want to, but in general I've always kind of struggled with irritation and ingrown hairs with shaving since the first day I started shaving. I came across this old style of shaving, shaving with a single blade safety razor and just fell in love with it and decided I wanted to try to kind of make a modern version of this old razor that I found. Patrick: Then in addition to that just decided like this is kind of... It's kind of now or never to make the leap from this job to doing something on my own. So it was kind of a perfect storm of the idea came and the necessity came and the opportunity came at the same time and just decided to go for it. Stephanie: Yeah, that's awesome. I think a lot of people probably have those same feelings of getting stuck somewhere. I know I have in the past. There was a point in my previous life when I was working at Fannie Mae and I had the same kind of thing. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Do I want to end up in a semi-government job or corporate job?" And even at Google, it's like, "Oh, things feel so great right now. Should I leave? I feel like I'll stay here for a long time because it's so comfy." So I think a lot of people have the same kind of feeling of now or never. I better jump before I get stuck here for the rest of my life. Patrick: And the further you go in those career paths like the harder it is to leave. What can an aerospace engineer that has worked as an aerospace engineer for 20 years do other than that after they've been there so long? Stephanie: Yeah. I had the same feeling. What year did you start Supply or did you start something before then or was Supply your first company? Patrick: Yes, Supply is my first kind of real company. Prior to starting Supply which we started in... The company started in January of 2015, but we launched publicly in August of 2015 with our first Kickstarter campaign. And prior to that, I started a website with one of my best buddies called razorpedia.com and that was like, I think, we started in 2012 or 2013. Long story short, it was a kind of razor review website that really was kind of a... Just kind of a stupid fun thing to do with a buddy on weekends where we wanted to kind of test razors and try to find the best razor on the market. Actually, the website ended up getting pretty popular and we ended up selling it later. But that's really where the razor kind of story began with shaving. Stephanie: Yeah. I mean, I read that the Razorpedia was like the number one google search result and it had like 1 million organic page views over 30 months. So it sounds like it was actually a pretty big deal. Patrick: Yeah, it was pretty successful. We were fortunate enough to like... We literally launched I think the same week that Harry's launched. Stephanie: Good timing. Patrick: Yeah. It was good timing and we wrote a blog like the same week about Harry's. We ended up like kind of being... If you searched razor reviews online or Harry's razor review, we were right at the top of the search results. So it was kind of dumb luck. So we started to kind of monetize it with ads. We didn't know what we were doing. We were making it up as we went. The best thing that came out of that was the realization that all these multi-blade razors that we tested were all... In my opinion, were all trash and just not good razors. It was that website that actually led me down the path to find this old style of shaving, which is this single blade style shave. Stephanie: It's really interesting how marketing can really train us like "Oh, the more blades the better, and this one has two. Oh, this one has three." You wouldn't even think like getting back to the roots of like you're talking about a single blade is maybe actually the best way of doing things. Patrick: Yeah. There's an old Onion article from like 2002 and I think the most blades in a razor was maybe three or four at that time, and the title of the article was Screw It, We're Doing Five Blades. So they actually foresaw the five blade razor. I think you can actually buy a seven blade razor today. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. So you have this idea of Supply. What did the early days look like? I mean you have this old-time razor where you're like, "Oh, this actually works really well." What was it like to actually start the company and find a way to create and manufacture this razor? Patrick: It was very challenging to say the least. So I had the good fortune of one of my friends. I wanted to just make the leap and just go cold turkey and go all in on the company and the idea from day one. I had the good fortune of having some friends in my life that I listened to that said, "Why don't you try to figure out how to make this product work before you just leave your paycheck behind?" That turned out to be really good advice because it took me about a year and a half if not two years to go from Kickstarter campaign, which was kind of the initial rough prototype to no kidding supply chain or product that I could actually sell at scale. Patrick: I have no background in consumer products at all, whatsoever. So a lot of that kind of two-ish years was just me making it up. I had no investors. I had no real network or people to rely on to help me figure out how to kind of make this product. So a lot of it was just kind of figuring it out as I went and making a lot of mistakes and fixing those mistakes when they happened. Stephanie: So how were you finding ways to... I mean, you get a really well-funded Kickstarter. What was the next steps after that? Did you go and start meeting with people who manufacture razors already and you're like, "Here's my new design idea?" Or since you're an engineer, were you actually like trying to make your own? Patrick: Yeah. No, I did not make my own. We've always done outsourced supply chain and production since day one. We're currently actually not working with any of our early manufacturing partners. We've got a really phenomenal network of manufacturers that we work with today. But in the early days, it was a lot of googling although that doesn't really get you too far when it comes to manufacturing. Patrick: And then just a lot of calling and cold outreach to anybody that I could get to pick up the phone. So I think I probably called somewhere around 50 or 60 different suppliers that I just found through Google or recommendation from somebody who would talk to me, but didn't want to do the work for me or something like that. I eventually settled on... And this is a very common practice in the consumer products space. I eventually settled on... I never really know what to call them, but kind of an outsourcing kind of middleman sort of company where they're a... This is what they do is they go find factories to make you your product. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. Patrick: Yeah, I found a guy local to me. I don't remember how I found him. I think he was on Upwork maybe and he managed the manufacturing of our first batch for me. Stephanie: Very cool. So what led you to change manufacturers? You said in the early days, you had one manufacturer two and then you don't use them now. What happened and what kind of lessons did you learn through switching manufacturers? Patrick: So we launched our campaign August of 2015. I promised delivery by March of 2015, and that was in my mind plenty... That was more than enough time. That was like I was being generous with that timeline. And the manufacturer knew that. They were on track with that. March came and went. No products. April came and went no products. May. And then June I finally... I'll never forget, he literally shows up on my doorstep with a big old dolly of... I think we had ordered maybe 2,000 razors or something like that and he drops him off inside my house. Then as he's walking out the door, he says, "Oh, by the way, there's a problem within." Patrick: I'm like, "Oh, now, you're going to tell me there's a problem." Anyways, it turned out there was an issue with the razor to where if it wasn't used properly, it actually wouldn't even really shave at all and you couldn't load a blade. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Patrick: Yeah, just a little problem, which was just devastating because I had already spent all my money that I had raised, I think about $8,000 on that production batch. Essentially what we did over the next kind of two to three months is I set up a little shop in my garage to try to kind of adjust the razors to make them work and we did the best we could with that. We were very open with our backers and that's always like number one thing. I always tell young founders or operators is like when things go wrong trying to cover it up or not being honest about it with your customers is just going to make it worse. Patrick: You need to kind of be honest. We were telling our customers what's up like here's what happened, here's what we're trying to make right about it. Oh by the way, if you want to wait, we're going to start up a second batch with a new manufacturer, but it's just going to take some time. Patrick: Anyways, we ended up kind of salvaging some of that initial bash. We ended up having to scrap a lot of it, lost a lot of money on that first batch and then we started up a second production line and eventually made it right with our backers and delivered everything we promised, but it took... I think it was the following March before we finished delivering what we had promised. So it took a year longer than what we had told people it would take. The lesson for me is and has always been at the end of the day, all I have personally that's keeping my business alive is the relationships with the people that I work with. Patrick: Those relationships and that trust is everything. It's extremely difficult to, on the front end, determine if you can trust somebody. But I always highly leverage towards trust when I'm evaluating a new partner rather than capability, right? Because capability is just kind of table stakes for us to even have a conversation. Something is going to go wrong and what happens when it goes wrong is what makes all the difference. Patrick: So that first vendor, his true colors were showed when something went wrong. The vendors, I'm with now, things go wrong all the time, but what happens is they make it right. So that's kind of the biggest learning lesson for me and the biggest advice I can give people is going into business with people that you not only enjoy working with, but can trust to make things right when things go wrong because that's literally all you have. What's written on the contract doesn't even really matter when you're as small as me, right? Because I can't sue somebody. It's just... Anyway. Stephanie: Too much time, too much money to even try and do that to begin with. Patrick: Yeah, exactly. So it's all about relationships. Stephanie: Yeah, that's a really good point. So on your Twitter I think I saw that... I mean, you guys have been in business for a few years, but 80% of your lifetime profit has come in the last six months and I was wondering what's the catalyst behind that? Why are all the profits coming in now? Is it better marketing? What's behind the scenes to drive that profit now? Patrick: Two things, supply and demand. So on the supply side, I worked all last year. This is another kind of big learning point. I've gathered over the years. I worked all last year to significantly improve our gross margins or essentially how much our products cost to make versus what we sell them. The first four basically years of my company, I wasn't charging enough for my products and they were costing me too much to make. So 2019 was a big kind of cost cutting year for us. Patrick: Then in addition to that... So those cost cutting initiatives went into effect on November 1st. So that's the supply side and then the demand side is November 3rd we aired on Shark Tank. So that was the beginning of a big tidal wave of orders. So those two things coincided very nicely to bring us to a place to where we're significantly profitable in the way that we've never been before and that really changes a lot of things for us. Stephanie: That's awesome. So how did you go about figuring out what areas needed to have cost cut down? What does that process look like? Patrick: Yeah, for us, I mean it's less about... We've always had very low overhead. Started the business with my wife. We've barely ever paid ourselves much... We've had a very small team always. We worked out of our house for the first three years. So overhead has always been very low for us. I always, always, always urge young businesses and founders to keep overhead as low as possible. I think a lot of the reason you're seeing a lot of companies go out of business or have issues this year since COVID hit is they don't have the flexibility in their overhead to withstand volatility in the marketplace which is what's going on right now. Patrick: So that's always been low for us. It's always been a thing that I've held important. What it costs us to make our products versus what we charge for them, I had what I'd consider a friend/mentor get on a phone with me. He runs a very successful men's clothing business that's probably 10 times larger than mine. He shared with me, "If you're not charging at least 4X for your products what you make them for, you're never going to be able to scale in a meaningful way because customer acquisition costs are just too high to let you be able to scale with any less margin than that." And he's right. Stephanie: Did you take his advice exactly and do 4X of how much it costed you? Patrick: Yes, I did. Stephanie: Cool. And what was the price before for a razor and what did that jump to? Patrick: Without getting into the engineering side which is maybe a little boring, but we didn't really necessarily change the price of the razor. We have two versions. We have what we call an alloy version and a steel version. The steel version we increased the price probably about 20 to 30% and we introduced an alloy version which is a lot less expensive to manufacture and we actually kept and almost kind of lowered the price on that one because we were able to bring our production costs down so much. Stephanie: Got it. When you're lowering your production costs, I know you mentioned overhead is a big thing, but was there anything with your production costs or the materials that you also looked at decreasing the prices for? Patrick: No. I mean, we kind of kept the packaging the same. Another thing that you'll probably hear a lot of people, supply chain guys talk about is we're always trying to get like ahead of the curve when it comes to ordering because historically we've always had to rush shipments via air. Not all of our stuff, but a lot of our stuff is made overseas and air shipments cost anywhere from five to 10X more than ocean shipments. So that's always really painful when you got to spend 20 to 30 grand just to ship something versus two to three grand. Patrick: So getting better forecasting so that we can order far enough ahead of time to put something on the ocean instead of the air is another big thing we're doing. Otherwise, it's just like constant... I live in my profit and loss statement where I'm just counting every single penny that goes into my cost of goods sold whether it's the cost to ship to me, whether it's cost to ship to my customer, the fees I'm getting charged by my credit card companies, cost of my boxes. Patrick: I mean, it just requires relentless dedication to constantly being in the numbers to make sure that... It's just like... It's like entropy. All things tend towards chaos. Well, everything in your P&L tends towards higher costs if you don't stay on top of it because you're just going to spend more and more money. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. I think a lot of founders oftentimes avoid looking at it because, one, it's kind of hard to read a P&L or a balance sheet or something like that if you haven't taken the time to figure out what all the line items mean. But then also like you said like a lot of things start adding up behind the scenes whether it's subscriptions or just stuff where you're like, "Whoa, I didn't realize my credit card fee is this." Maybe it's actually cheaper just to you know get a loan or do this and start thinking differently about how you're spending your money. Because a lot of those costs do add up especially in the early days. Patrick: They do, and software too. Stephanie: Oh, yeah. Software is a big one. And forecasting. I thought that's a really good point about forecasting in a way that you don't have to airship things. We actually haven't had someone on the show talk about air versus ocean, so I found that very interesting. Patrick: Yep. Stephanie: So the other thing I was wondering I would love to hear more about is your Shark Tank experience. We've had quite a few Shark Tankers on here and everyone's had a slightly different experience. I want to hear a little bit about what that looked like. Patrick: Awesome. I mean, it was a once-in-a-lifetime sort of deal. Never will forget it. We had a blast. I went on with my wife. We both pitched. We filmed in June of last year, so June of 2019 and then we aired in November of 2019. Just all the way through from the very... I applied three years in a row. It took me three years to get on the show and from the first day I applied the first time all the way through the last interaction I had with them after filming, it's just a really class act. Up and down, just phenomenal people. Patrick: I'm not talking necessarily about the sharks, although they're all great. You work with them for literally 30 minutes to an hour. You never see them again, but all the people behind the scenes are just a class act. Just the experience of standing in front of these people that you've watched for close to a decade, if not more than a decade on TV and actually talking to them and them talking back to you and saying your name. It's just like this very kind of out of body experience to where you kind of like in a sense like black out a little bit. Like don't even really remember what happened, at least personally. But we had an absolute blast. We ended up getting an offer from Robert and accepted his offer. We actually didn't end up closing that deal, but just had an absolute blast. Stephanie: Oh, and you said you didn't end up closing it?   Patrick: No, we did not. Stephanie: I think that's also interesting to know that not all the deals close and there's things that maybe happen afterwards that could impact that on both sides. Patrick: Yeah. About half of them don't close. Stephanie: Yeah. So what was it like after you went on the show? I'm sure you had a large increase in demand? Did you guys have any website issues or inventory issues or what did that look like? Patrick: Yeah, a huge increase in demand. I think in November, we did you know 4X our previous monthly record. So big increase in demand. It really strained our customer service. It strained our supply... Not our supply chain, our warehouse a bit although we had just onboarded with Shopify Fulfillment Network. They were doing a phenomenal job of keeping up with things. It was more of what was straining was getting stuff in stock from our vendors on time. Patrick: So we had some orders that took us like three to four weeks to ship and that made some customers pretty upset since they were Christmas presents. We did get everybody everything they needed before Christmas which was like my one thing that I wasn't going to sacrifice on. We ended up getting it done. But between November 3rd and Christmas, it was pretty painful, in a good way. But the response was pretty phenomenal. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. And are you seeing continued demand from that or did you start leveraging other maybe customer acquisition strategies or marketing tactics to kind of build on that demand? Patrick: Yeah, so it really put a ton of wind in our sales. It's really helped us kind of upgrade a lot of our business kind of to the next level. But in terms of like sustained demand, no, you're not getting a ton of like post Shark tank people streaming it and coming to your website. Although, I'm sure that happens. What it has done for us is it's given us kind of a social proof of being on this national platform. Patrick: So we've used a lot of footage and assets from the airing in our advertising. So if you go to our website, you'll probably get retargeted with some Shark Tank style ads. And just in general, it's given us the ability to taking us from this quiet kind of nobody brand to... I won't call us a household name, because we're certainly not, but a lot more people recognize us like, "Oh yeah, I've seen that before." Patrick: So it helps with everything. I mean, it helps with not only the company but your partners and your vendors are now even more excited to work with you. Press finds you that hasn't found you in the past. We'll be in The Wall Street Journal this weekend. Stephanie: Oh, cool. Patrick: We are in GQ's best single blade razor of 2020. These things just kind of slowly snowball. It's been a really phenomenal experience. We're very grateful for it. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. It's such a good reminder of how PR can work if it's done the right way because there's all these PR companies who always say that they can help you, but it depends and that's just a good reminder that it can work well if you get the right outlet and getting featured in like Wall Street Journal or places like that. Very beneficial. Stephanie: So what kind of digital channels are you finding the most success in right now when you're going about... You're talking about retargeting and different marketing tactics. What kind of channels are you finding success in? Patrick: Sure. I mean, no surprise Facebook, Instagram and Google in that order for volume. We've always wanted to test these other channels like Snapchat and Tik-Tok and whatever and we probably will sooner or later. But there are some other things we want to spend some more time on building before then. We do a little bit of affiliate. We do a tiny bit of influencer, and that's really kind of I think what we're going to start turning our eye to for maybe the next phase of our growth. But yeah, those are really the big channels for us. Stephanie: Yeah, cool. So when you were building up supply and you mentioned Harry's earlier. The razor market feels like it's been pretty popular for people to start companies in. You've got Dollar Shave Club, you've got Harry's. How did you think about that competition and making sure that you stood out among the other brands that were launching? Patrick: Yeah. So our value proposition is very much kind of anti-Harry's and anti-Dollar Shave Club. Then our positioning and our pricing is similarly the complete opposite. So they're clearly competitors of ours, but I don't really consider them necessarily direct competitors. What I do consider them is people that I can steal my customers from. So it's a single blade. I haven't really talked much about the product. It's a single blade. Stephanie: Yeah, let's hear about that. Patrick: Yeah. It's a premium single blade razor and the value propositions are there's a few. Number one, it's not a cheap product. It's a $75 handle, but the value prop is you invest a lot up front, but then you save tons of money over time. So our blades are 75 cents a piece and they last somewhere between eight to 10 shaves. So after you buy the handle, you're spending... If you're shaving every day, you're spending maybe 24 bucks on blades a year. Then you've got this handle that lasts forever. We actually guarantee it for life. Patrick: So you never have to buy the handle again. But then aside from that, the value prop is a single blade gives you just as close of a shave as a multi-blade razor. But for roughly 30% of guys, they experience like myself a really severe razor burn and or bumps typically on the neck or in the sensitive parts of the face. And a lot of that is caused by multi-blade razors. We don't have to go that deep into it, but the way they're designed is works for some guys in terms of giving you a close shave, but for guys like me who have sensitive skin, it actually does the opposite. It makes things worse for you. Patrick: Anyways, so going back to Harry's and Dollar Shave Club. So a lot of guys, they just use these razors and they just think like this is the way everybody shaves and they just have to deal with this issue and just deal with the razor burn or just not shave. So what we're telling them is no, it's not the case. You can actually shave and enjoy it and not have your face be a train wreck after you shave. Patrick: So we're slowly helping guys kind of wake up from this myth that multi-blades are better and that's like the only way to shave. If it doesn't work for you, then too bad. Just keep shaving and tearing up your face. Stephanie: Yeah. How are you going about that education process because I was going to say that it does seem like there's quite a bit of education required for that and just for like... I mean, you mentioned shaving eight to 10 times. I'm like, "Oh, I think a lot of people probably shave with the same blade for long time." I'm thinking about myself, I'm like, "Oh, man. I'm pretty bad at that." So how do you go about getting people to change their behavior? Patrick: Yeah. Honestly, it's tough. I mean, I'll give you an example. We present in our ads like why multi-blade razors are bad for your skin and we literally present it the same... We present the same data that Gillette presents. It's on their website. Multi-blade razors are literally designed to lift... The first blade tugs the hair out of the skin and like the second and third blade kind of cuts it below the surface of the skin. That's literally how Gillette has designed them to work. Patrick: People accuse of us of lying and making that up. And it's like, "No, just google it." You'll see it straight out of the horse's mouth. So the point is like it takes a lot of education. When they don't even believe that you're just saying what your competitor says, clearly they they need a lot of education. Patrick: So we do it through video. For example, if you buy the razor, you get four emails from me, the first four days after you buy it and each one is a short 60-second training video. It's not like this outrageously complex course of learning how to shave with our razor. It's 60-second videos. But guys, we've learned are very prone to throw instructions out so they don't read anything that we include with the product. Stephanie: You think they fancy videos like you call them, "Hey, come look at this." Patrick: Exactly. It continues to be a challenge, but in general video seems to work the best in terms of teaching guys how to do. And actually, we're starting up our YouTube channel next week to kind of help that process as well. Stephanie: That's really interesting. Another thing I read. I don't even know why I know anything about razors because I did read an article about the marketing behind them, how a lot of the traditional companies show the razor getting like water all over it and sitting in the shower and that actually degrades the blades and then you have to change it more frequently and that was like their whole plan. Do you think that's true or am I just reading conspiracy theories behind razor blades? Patrick: Yeah, I don't know exactly what you've read, but I mean it is true that water, what it does, I mean, if it sits on a blade it causes it to rust which degrades the edge. I mean, we tell our customers don't leave your razor in the shower in a damp environment. We tell our customers not to do that because that's very... That's true. Stephanie: Yeah. I mean, all these things I think most people probably are doing right now, I'm thinking of myself and our producers typing in there that how long she goes from changing her blades. So I think there's a lot of education to do in the market in general. How are you guys also thinking about new products because these are designed for men, but I'm like women definitely have a lot of the same issues. Are you thinking about launching new products geared towards women as well or are you just strictly focused on men's products? Patrick: The short term, we're focused on men's products. We do have women as customers. My wife and my co-founder is a user of our product. So we're more than happy to have the ladies buy from us. But what's really, really difficult or at least I've found is to position our product as both a men's and women's product at the same time. I don't know the best. I'm sure there's a good way to do it, but I don't know what it is because shaving your face and shaving your legs are too... They seem similar, but they're very, very different things. Patrick: I'd love to do like maybe different landing pages or product pages because the value props are basically different, right? So I don't know, man. Maybe I could use some advice for how to sell... Maybe the problem is I just don't know yet how to sell razors to women. Stephanie: It sounds like my team. We've got ideas and we'll team up with your wife and we can all figure it out together. Patrick: Yeah, yeah exactly. It is on the to-do list. It's just something we haven't been able to get to yet. Stephanie: Very cool. So tell me a little bit about how you developed your website like the experience... I mean, when you're selling something that kind of needs to be tried out or you need to hold like the handle to see like wow, this is a good quality like piece of steel here, how do you convey that to the customers who are coming on and how did you develop your website experience. Patrick: Yeah. It's tough, it's really tough. I don't think we've arrived by any stretch, but certainly, certainly made a lot of progress. We have a very, very talented development company. We work with agency called Fuel Made. Good friends, just good people and they do amazing work. So they handle just from the front end and the back end design. They're handling most of that for me. Patrick: Prior to that when we were smaller, I think it's a complete, complete waste of money to spend any money on complex web design. There are so many free or very cheap templates out there that work so well. I would encourage people to not spend any money on development and take any money you have and invest it all in creative and start with just phenomenal photography. Patrick: Find a very, very talented photographer and spend your money there if you're going to spend your money anywhere. So I have a very good friend of mine who is that person and he takes all of our photographs. And so we over index on beautiful photography. We're now at a point to where we can afford kind of an expensive agency to develop our site and otherwise, we do just tons of AB testing. Every month, we're testing something new or we're launching a new feature. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails miserably. Each month is just an opportunity to get better. Stephanie: What kind of tests have you seen work versus fail because I think a lot of people may be thinking about trying out some of the same kind of features or tests that you're thinking about. So is there anything that comes to mind where you're like this really worked well with conversions or increase cart value versus this one did not work at all and it seems like it would have. Patrick: Yeah. I probably have more this didn't work than this does work. Stephanie: Let's hear it. I like those stories just as much. Patrick: Well, man, I'm really sad about this one. We just did one where once you add the razor to the cart, there's a pop-up that immediately shows up that says, "Hey, do you want to upgrade this to our starter set which is our second best seller aside from our razor?" We tested different variations of that pop-up. We tested it against no pop-up and there was like no clear winner after, I think it was two weeks and a very significant amount of traffic. No clear winner. Patrick: So we decided not to go with that pop-up. I launched a membership/loyalty program in April. The way I designed it was outrageously complex and I put a lot of development work and dollars into it, let it run for eight weeks and then I canned it. That was painful to do because it was just too complex. Stephanie: What made it complex? Because I've actually heard similar themes from a few other people who've been on the show who said that they thought that a loyalty program would work for them, but it ended up not working like they thought. So what do you think made it too complex or would you have done it differently or are you just like, "We're not trying that again?" Patrick: Yeah. Two things on the front end and on the back end. So on the back end, the code, it was completely custom designed from a code using scripts on Shopify and it just got really complicated. But on the front end, it was kind of confusing to the customer. So the program was essentially like it was kind of like buy a razor and get a free lifetime of blades offer which sounds like a really compelling offer, but there's always kind of... There's got to be a caveat to that statement. Patrick: So it was like you could get a shipment every quarter of blades, just pay for shipping or you could buy our premium membership, which was like 20 bucks a year and then get the blade shipped to you once a quarter, which is a great deal, but offering them those two options was really confusing and then just the way we made them sign up for it was confusing. Patrick: In general, we're going to try to launch another program in the future, but it will be far less complicated. If you can't explain it in a sentence or less and have people get it immediately, then you've set yourself up for failure. And that's what we did. I've explained the program to people and they'd be like, "Okay, wait. But if I buy this, what happens?" Stephanie: I need my Google spreadsheet out like which way will I save an extra dollar? Patrick: Yeah. So anyways, things that have worked. We actually launched international currency on our website because we do a pretty big chunk of business overseas and that actually increases conversion rates quite a bit for us. I'm blanking right now. We've had other wins, but I'm blanking on it right now. Stephanie: That's all right. If you think of any more, we can circle back because I actually think it's very interesting diving into some of these tests like this because I'm sure other founders are thinking about similar tests. Patrick: For sure. Stephanie: Very cool. So a couple general Ecommerce questions. Now, that you've been in the world for a while and kind of doing a bunch of tests and you launched your company, what kind of trends or patterns do you see coming down the pipe right now especially with everything with the pandemic. Are there any changes that you see coming in the future around Ecommerce? Patrick: I guess this is probably cliché, but the only thing I know is that I have no idea what's coming next. I think there's a ton of opportunity in the future and a ton of volatility in the future for Ecommerce. I'm very, very grateful, number one to be in the industry I'm in to continue to operate and be healthy and growing. I have friends in the restaurant business that cannot say that. Patrick: So I'm very bullish and grateful for the industry I'm in. I'm not planning on changing anytime soon, but at the same time, I think consumer behavior is going to continue to be like challenging to kind of forecast. People say this all the time on Twitter, but I just don't get the fact that our stock market is so high and our GDP is so low and so many people are out of business. Patrick: To me, it's like, okay, when is this... Part of me is waiting for the other shoe to drop and when is this all going to come crashing down and the other part of me is like eCommerce is 30% of retail now and like that's not showing any sign of stopping anytime soon. So I don't know if that's a direct answer, but in general what I'm doing is I'm doubling down. I'm building processes and teams for growth. Patrick: So we actually just left our long time marketing agency that I had a great relationship and love and really enjoyed working with and it was really difficult to leave them. But the main reason I left is like I'm convinced the brands that are super nimble and able to react and adapt really quickly are going to be the ones that survive and thrive in this environment, in this volatile environment. Patrick: So whether Facebook CPMs are up or down or what's going on, I think we're just going to be really flexible and part of what I'm doing to be flexible is building more internal teams to move quickly rather than just being a bit slower. Stephanie: Yeah. That's such a great point and I think a lot of other companies are probably starting to think about that too especially around like being able to move quickly and not having costs that are recurring for like the next three years that you can't get out of or long-term contracts and even around like not relying on just a single manufacturer and being able to kind of like move around if needed. So definitely being more nimble will probably be how a lot of companies are thinking about this going forward. Patrick: Yeah, and it's tough because at the same time you also, I think... We started the call off kind of like this, it's like you have to keep overhead low at the same time. So you've got these competing priorities to be able to move fast and have an internal team, but then also not have a bloated internal team that you just can't respond. Your overhead can't respond quick enough to any kind of unforeseen events. Stephanie: Yep. Completely agree. So is there anything that you wish I would have asked you that I did not bring up? Patrick: Let me see. I don't think so. No, nothing I can think of. Stephanie: Man, I'm just the best. All right. Cool. Then we can move on to a quick lightning round, if that sounds good. Patrick: That works for me. Stephanie: All right. So the lightning round brought to you by SalesForce Commerce Cloud. This is where I will ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Patrick? Patrick: I am ready. Stephanie: Cool. So if you were to start a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Patrick: Okay. I know the answer to this one. Stephanie: You're prepared. Patrick: This is no offense to you at all. Stephanie: All right. I'll try not to be offended. Patrick: I would start not like a one-on-one podcast, but like a round table debate style podcast with roughly three to five people. I want vigorous like vitriolic... I don't know if that's a word, but debate. I want people that are so ingrained in their opinion that they're willing to fight other people to the death about what they have to say. The topics would be all Ecommerce or retail related. Stephanie: Okay. Patrick: So anyways. Stephanie: I feel like I see that happening on Twitter right now though. Patrick: Yes, it's Twitter and podcast form. That's exactly what it is. Stephanie: Yeah. I see all these people getting very angry about stuff with certain Ecommerce or someone calls something like D2C and they're like, "That's not data saved." I'm like oh my gosh. Patrick: That's exactly what I'm talking about. Stephanie: That's funny. We at Mission have done roundtables before, but they're usually with like three CMOs and then one of us hosting it. So it does not get that heated. So I'd be very interested to see how your podcast goes. Patrick: Yeah, it would be a requirement for yelling to happen. Stephanie: That sounds great. What's up next on your reading list? Patrick: Let's see. I just downloaded been a book by Ben Horowitz. I don't remember the name of it but it's about building culture. Stephanie: Oh, yeah. What is that new one? Patrick: I don't remember. But it's all related to this kind of transition I'm going through right now is what I call a transition from founder to CEO and focusing less on doing things myself and focusing more about delegating and building a team that can accomplish things without me involved. So a huge, huge, huge part of that is culture and I have no clue how to build good culture. So I want to learn from the best. Stephanie: What You Do Is Who You Are? Patrick: Yes, that's it. Is that new or is that old? Stephanie: Yeah. That one is his newer book. I was listening to it on Audible and I like it because it ties in history along with building a culture, but it's like here's what happened a long time ago and why these themes are still relevant. So I'd recommend that one as well. Patrick: So you liked it? That's good. Stephanie: Yeah. I thought it was great. Patrick: Okay, good. Stephanie: What's up next on your Netflix queue? Patrick: I don't really watch a whole lot of Netflix. Stephanie: No? Nothing? Everyone always starts by saying that and they're like, "Oh, wait. I just did this. I just watched this whole series." Patrick: It's funny. Me and Jennifer will turn on Netflix to watch something new and we always default to just watching The Office. Stephanie: That's a good one. That's a good go to, to Keep you smiling. Patrick: I will say we did just start. We dug up an old DVD set of Seinfeld and now we're watching Seinfeld right now. Stephanie: Oh, nice. Pulling out the DVDs. That's awesome. Patrick: Yeah, the DVD. Blu-Ray though, yeah. Stephanie: Yeah, got to be. What app do you enjoy most on your phone? Patrick: What app? I use twitter probably too much. It's a good thing and a bad thing. A lot of the good things that have happened to me over the past year have been through connections on Twitter, but it can also be a time suck. Stephanie: Yes, I agree. All right. And then the last one, what is a favorite piece of tech that you use or a trying out that's making you or your team more efficient right now? Patrick: More efficient. Well, we're trying out a productivity app called ClickUp? Have you ever heard of it? Stephanie: I think I have. Tell me a little bit more about it. Patrick: It's kind of like a monday.com or an Asana. So like project management, task management. I've never found one I like or that works. We've tried doing it in Notion before, although I love Notion. So we're trying that in ClickUp. I don't know. We'll see. I like it so far. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah, we'll have to check that out. We use Basecamp for almost everything, but I'm open to other things. Patrick: Go ahead. Stephanie: Oh, go ahead. Patrick: I was just going to say, I don't know that I'm a huge fan of Basecamp. I could never get it to work for some reason. Stephanie: Yeah. It is a little high when it comes to like starting up and teaching the team and everyone learning from it, but it gets better. Patrick: Yeah. Stephanie: All right. Well, this has been such a fun interview, Patrick. Thank you for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and Supply? Patrick: You can find me on Twitter where I spend most of my time. My handle sounds like canoe. Because my last name sounds like canoe, it's Patrick Coddou. So you can find me there and that's really where I spend all my time. And then our website is supply.co. You can see our company and all of our products there. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks so much and have a great day. Patrick: Thank you.  

 Discover the biggest mistakes businesses make when building their app Learn the valuable free action you can take today to get closer to putting your app in the hands of users and get closer to making money Discover how to build a sustainable business around your application using Launchtrail system to answer the most important questions about how to serve your customers and make revenue Resources/Links: Checkout Patrick's Idea Validation Workbook: Learn 4 Steps You Can Take Today to get Closer to Revenue from Your App:https://launchtrail.tech/ Summary Patrick Bentley is a software developer and Founder of the Launchtrail system. He works with non-technical businesses to use tech to accelerate their business growth. In this episode, Patrick shares how he helps non-technical entrepreneurs validate their app ideas and get to market fast and get closer to making money. Check out these episode highlights: 01:00 – Patrick's ideal client: "My ideal client is largely going to be any entrepreneurs who are non-technical, who have app ideas. So that can be a solopreneur. It can also be an organization that's already in business and just looking to automate their processes or maybe create a new product." 01:42 – Problem Patrick helps solve: "So, the problem that we solve is that we actually help with everything before the application." 02:33 – Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Patrick: "So, the symptoms that people usually have are that they have no idea how to actually go about the app development, or they've already maybe tried to get their app developed and it hasn't turned out the way that they've expected it to. Or they just have no idea how to actually launch or solve any of the technical problems that come along with launching an application." 03:29 – Common mistakes that people make before they find Patrick's solution: "The common mistakes are usually having an app idea and then they say, "Okay, well, I'm going to go out and I'm going to shop for a software development firm," but they really don't have any idea how to deliver that product." 04:34 – Patrick's Valuable Free Action(VFA): "Just to start validating their ideas early as possible." 06:04 – Patrick's Valuable Free Resource (VFR): Checkout 4 Steps to Mapping your Business Structure:http://bit.ly/4StepsBusinessStructure 06:26 – Q: How to build a 'no-code' viable app? A: No code solutions is that there's still a lot of programmatic thinking that goes into figuring out how the applications that work. So even if you're using no-code and you're using drag and drop, if you're not thinking about the data model, and what types of data need to be collected and how that data needs to be manipulated, and then even how you need to host it, those are still very technical leaning questions that need to be answered. And so even though there are drag and drop solutions, there's still a lot of thinking and forethought that needs to happen before you start building. Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: “Start validating your app idea as early as possible.'” -@PI_BentleyClick To Tweet Transcript (Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast) Tom Poland: 0:09 Hello everyone, and a very warm welcome to another edition of Marketing The Invisible. My name is Tom Poland, joined today by Patrick Bentley. Patrick, good day, sir, welcome. Where are you hanging out?

PJ Bruno sits down with Enterprise AE Patrick Forquer and VP of Growth Spencer Burke to discuss online grocery shopping, Reddit raising a huge Series D round with a near $3 billion valuation, and Warby Parker's new augmented reality shopping tool.          TRANSCRIPT: [0:00:18] P.J: Hi everyone and welcome to Braze for Impact. Your weekly tech industry discuss digest. So this is a place where we get together each week and just talk about what's happening in tech. This week I'm lucky to have with me my pal Patrick Forquer who is on the sales organization here at Braze. Next week we'll hear from someone from a different department, probably Customer Success, something like that and then the following week maybe someone from product and then so on and so forth. So we can get multiple different angles at what's happening in the tech industry. Like I said today, I'm lucky to have Patrick Forquer and also Spencer Burke. I'll have them introduce themselves.   [0:00:51] Patrick: Hey, I'm Patrick [inaudible]. I'm a strategic account exec here at Braze.   [0:00:55] Spencer: Thanks PJ. I'm Spencer Burke, the VP of growth.   [0:00:58] P.J: How are you guys doing? How's the week trucking on?   [0:01:01] Patrick: It's going okay. No, it's going great. It's great to be here with you P.J. Looking great in your Heather Gray shirt and as always.   [0:01:09] P.J: It's a good color. Spence, how are we doing?   [0:01:11] Spencer: Going well. Got a ski trip planned for this weekend driving up to Vermont, so can't complain.   [0:01:16] P.J: Always at the skiing Spencer Burke.   [0:01:19] Spencer: It's a winter. I got to get it in.   [0:01:20] P.J: Got to get it in guys. You know what, without further ado, why don't we jump on to what's happening this week? This first article, 'Why people still don't buy groceries online'. This is a very interesting thing to me. Actually, let me set up the story because I think they did a really good way of setting this up in the article. Nearly 30 years ago when just 15% of Americans had a computer and even fewer had Internet access, Thomas Parkinson set up a rack of modems on a crate and barrel wine rack and started accepting orders for the Internet's first grocery delivery company, Peapod, which he founded with his brother Andrew. Back then, ordering groceries online was complicated. Most customers had dial-up still and Peapod's web graphics were so rudimentary that customers couldn't even see image of what images of what they were buying. Delivery was complicated too. So the Parkinson's drove to grocery stores in the Chicago area. They actually did this and bought what customers had ordered and then delivered the goods from the backseat of their beat up Honda Civic. When people wanted to stock up on certain goods, strawberry yogurt or bottles of diet coke, the Parkinson's would deplete whole sections of grocery stores. This is, this is wild. I mean it's interesting because we were all constantly talking about convenience and delivery of all sorts of things. Why not groceries? What's the deal?   [0:02:41] Patrick: Yeah. So when I was reading this article, the first thing that came to mind was if, if we rewind 10 years from today and we took a poll of everyone at braise about, which would be more successful grocery delivery or an app on your phone where you tap on one button and a stranger in a Honda Civic pulls up and drives you somewhere. I think we all would have bet on the grocery delivery piece of that. Right?   [0:03:07] Spencer: Every time.   [0:03:08] Patrick: So it is crazy to me and the numbers are super low. I mean 3% of people getting grocery delivery. Spencer, what was your initial take?   [0:03:18] Spencer: I'm curious, have you guys used the grocery delivery service?   [0:03:22] Patrick: So I have, I had a really bad experience actually, so I haven't done it since. And I think that's part of the challenge in this article where-   [0:03:31] Spencer: Can you get into that bad experience or is that...   [0:03:35] Patrick: So we tried to use the grocery ordering off of Amazon Alexa and my wife ordered paper towels and-   [0:03:46] Spencer: Just paper towels?   [0:03:47] Patrick: Yes. And a couple of other things, but I kid you not, they delivered us what must have been the majority of the warehouses paper towels to the point where-   [0:03:58] P.J: Jesus!   [0:03:59] Patrick: ...for two and a half years, we were using paper towels off of that one order. So obviously that's an outlier. But yeah.   [0:04:08] P.J: It seems like it's also, apparently America is really not adopting it as much as other countries like it seems like in Europe. Also in Asia it's like up to 20% or something like that of consumers are using online and it's only 3% here in America. Does that speak to anything that we're doing or what do you guys think?   [0:04:27] Spencer: Well, I mean I think part of it is most people... Most people have cars. Most people live in an area where they have some kind of large grocery store chain and so if you're driving to work, stopping at the grocery store on the way home, it's not changing the convenience kind of function for everyone in the same way that like Lyft or Postmates or Seamless might for your average consumer. Personally, I've tried it here in New York. I recently moved to somewhere that just doesn't have as many large stores as close to me. I just thought, sure, why not? Let's try Amazon Prime. Amazon just bought whole foods recently and let's see how it goes. I think there's a lot of challenges with it. You don't see exactly what you're getting. If something's out of stock, you're relying on them making replacement or not providing it at all. So, if you're planning on using one of these services to plan a dinner you might not actually be able to cook what you intended to or you might not be able to put that meal together because the delivery service wasn't 100% versus if you're in the store, you can kind of course correct as you go.   [0:05:32] P.J: Right. I feel like a lot of us order all sorts of things through the Internet. I'm sure that list goes on, but as far as grocery shopping something that...it's ordering Seamless as one thing, right? It's prepared and sent right over to you as opposed to groceries. People probably a little concerned like you want to feel your fruit, you want to see your meat, you got all these things. I feel like there's a little fear around that probably. For me anyways.   [0:05:59] Patrick: Well definitely. And then you know, they talk about the challenges that these companies have. It's a lot more complex and it would look to me that on the surface with things like some items you have to keep warm. Some items you have to keep cool, you have to do it all really quickly. And so the people put, you know, preparing the packaging, have to know where everything is and then there's delivery and it's mostly in urban areas. So then there's parking challenges and all these things that I didn't necessarily.   [0:06:25] P.J: There's tons of complications that go along with it. Apparently surveys have shown that shoppers are still concerned that they're being charged higher prices when it comes to online delivery and also complain about delivery drivers being late. Those are the two biggest complaints apparently.   [0:06:39] Patrick: Yeah. And the last thing I noticed was in the second article that we were looking at on grocery delivery, there's the casual drop of Google in partnership with Bain, with Bain commissioned a research study, which as we know working in tech means that Google paid Bain to run this survey for them likely with a hypothesis that grocery delivery was about to explode.   [0:07:03] P.J: I feel like they had an a hypothesis in mind. Yes. Something tells me, yeah.   [0:07:07] Spencer: So I don't know if this was entirely altruistic on behalf of a like, yeah, let's do it. Let's go for it. We'd like you guys.   [0:07:13] Patrick: And you know, I noticed Walmart recently pulled their products from Google Express, which is Google's grocery delivery service. So I think there's increasing competition around this for an incredibly small market at the moment. And I guess we'll see where it goes.   [0:07:31] Spencer: Yeah. Before we move on. I, despite our skepticism, I think there clearly is something here and you know, whether it's Instacart or Postmates or Amazon or anything Walmart or Jet tries to do, there's clearly value to having a hall. You're grocery shopping, just show up at your door essentially. And I think like a lot of things on the Internet, whether it was a couple of years ago when everyone's like no one's going to put their credit card into their phone to buy something online. It's like there's all these articles about how many people abandon their carts because it's on mobile and they need to go back to their desktop. No one talks about that anymore. You just do it. I think we're not that far from whole foods being a warehouse of food for Amazon delivery rather than a grocery store. Right.   [0:08:18] Patrick: Delivered by robots.   [0:08:20] Spencer: Yeah, exactly.   [0:08:21] P.J: And that's what the future looks like. Groceries delivered by robots.   [0:08:24] Spencer: You heard it here first.   [0:08:25] P.J: Yeah, we'll leave it to you guys. Next article of the day. Reddit is raising a huge round near $3 billion valuation. So Reddit is raising one. Sorry, $150 million to $300 million to keep the front page of the Internet running. Multiple sources tell TechCrunch. The forthcoming series D round is said to be led by Chinese tech giant, Tencent at a $2.7 billion pre-money valuation. And now depending on how much follow on cash Reddit drums up from Silicon Valley investors and beyond, it's post money valuation could reach an epic $3 billion. Yikes. And now my first concern that comes up immediately for this, and I feel like maybe you guys felt the same way. Censorship, right? I mean, maybe it doesn't matter, but Reddit remains a relatively safe space for trailers and conspiracy theorists alike. The currently banned apps and websites in China though, like massive lists just to shortlist as Google, Netflix, Facebook, Twitter, Snap, Insta, Youtube, flickr, Tinder, and Reddit of course. And that doesn't even include news publications, cloud storage products and email. So I don't know, there's something feels weird about this, right? Also like Tencent is also one of the most important architects of the great firewall of China. This is serious. There's a lot going on. There's a lot of meat here.   [0:09:53] Spencer: It's like this is a different than I expected.   [0:09:54] P.J: Oh really? It just seems like there's strange things at play.   [0:10:00] Patrick: Spencer, I know you had some hot takes on this.   [0:10:02] Spencer: No, go ahead.   [0:10:03] Patrick: Well, yeah, I think it's interesting that Reddit has had a lot of challenges over the past couple of years. And PJ, you alluded to some of that where they've had some really bad homophobic, misogynistic, racist, threads that have propagated conspiracy theories and hate speech and they've dealt with it in different ways. Some of the ways that they've dealt with it has been good. Some of it's been not so good. I know their CEO was editing comments and specific threads to make them look a certain way. And then he got caught doing that and had to apologize. If they had been a bigger company, can you imagine if Facebook did something like that? He'd be hauled in front of Congress immediately. So, and I was thinking about the valuation piece of this too, where if you took all the bad stuff out, and you're looking at their monetization model, it's through ads, right? Like most companies. They're like most social companies but they've really only recently started monetizing through ads and their real strength has been a very supportive and loyal community of Reddit users. I don't use Reddit, but I know people who do and the people that use Reddit, love Reddit. They love it. They're like in the community, they're posting and commenting and all that stuff. And the challenge as we know scaling a business model where ads are the primary revenue driver is that you can lose some of that early days, communal feel when you start layering in promoted posts and different types of advertisements and it kind of loses its initial bespoke early day feeling those.   [0:11:54] Spencer: Yeah. I think the flip side of the darker elements of Reddit is that Reddit, can be a place for really specific groups of people and that can be people in a city, someone with a certain medical condition, people who play a sport. Like recently I've been looking and there's a subreddit for woodworking and it's like, oh, this is maybe a hobby that I'd be interested in. And there's just a ton of resources and people who are helpful. So for everyone who's out there trying to make a joke, well, if there's a lot more of these people, but for everyone out there who's, who's kind of trolling and you're trying to be a little bit silly, there's a lot of people who are just passionate about something and go to Reddit to share it. And I think it's kind of inspiring actually, that those communities exist on the Internet in a place that it's not just a website for those people. It's a website that can serve any community and it happens to be Reddit for a lot of people.   [0:12:50] Patrick: Right? Do you think that this changes anything for Reddit potentially down the road?   [0:12:58] Spencer: Well, they stay in business for a little bit longer. I don't think so. I think you're probably reading too much into the the Chinese[crosstalk]   [0:13:07] Patrick: have you been spending some time on Reddit recently PJ?   [0:13:09] P.J: Actually, I've only been on Reddit maybe once in my whole life. I'm not a big ... My roommate is like obsessed. Anytime we're doing anything like watching a movie, he just is looking at his phone the whole time and he's in Reddit constantly living in the comments. Right?   [0:13:23] Patrick: Nba Reddit as a really good, yeah. Community. Right. Community.   [0:13:27] Spencer: I feel singled out now because I actually do spend a decent amount of time on Reddit   [0:13:32] Patrick: That's all we need to hear from somebody.   [0:13:32] Spencer: Don't use Facebook, don't use Twitter. Casually though love reading Reddit. The comments can be hilarious. But like I said, just moved recently. So looking for cool areas, restaurants, bars in my neighborhood and there's a subreddit for it. So just reading through it on a couple of times a week can pick out spots, find somewhere to go check out, and it's actually really interesting to see and it's like having a good neighbor or a friend recommend some places to you. You just there and it's a different feel than just going on Yelp and looking at aggregate and total summation.   [0:14:08] Patrick: Are you getting into woodworking? Is that what this is?   [0:14:11] P.J: Yeah. What do you, tell me more about that.   [0:14:13] Spencer: I won't go down the rabbit hole of the hobbies that Reddit has inspired or there's some really, I'll just ... There's some really specifics. I'll read it. That's all. That's all I'll say.   [0:14:23] Patrick: I mean, but what you're describing though, Spencer, is the kind of dual nature of all of these social media sites. On one hand, they can connect people who feel lonely or who are passionate about a certain topic that maybe others around them aren't passionate about and find that community that they'd been looking for. On the other hand, there's Jonses with hate speech and things like that and who knows, maybe Reddit Will start handling this really well and it'd be a success story, so I'll be interested to what they do with all this capital and it's a huge inflection point for their business and kind of their all or nothing shot I feel like so.   [0:15:00] Spencer: Just as an example, they're on the weeds podcast of ox podcasts. They're talking about a study of where they paid people to give up Facebook who are on the platform. They weren't planning to give it up. And those people who are basically just happier, they socialize more, they watch a little more TV, which is maybe the one question one thing.   [0:15:19] Patrick: And they have some money now, which is nice.   [0:15:22] Spencer: But they were less politically divisive. They were a little less informed on some things, but just like genuinely happier. I think one of the interesting things that happens in Reddit versus Facebook, that the communities are moderated by people from the community. So there are subreddits to help people quit smoking, to quit drinking. And when those people will talk about their success, there's so much positive in encouragement and positive feedback and the negative elements of that. Unlike Facebook where anyone from high school that you don't really know anymore can come in and comment and make you feel pretty bad about something or give you that kind of fomo feeling. There's a community of people supporting you trying to do whatever it is. Whether it's something you know, trying to get rid of some addiction or learn some new hobby, which I think so that moderating the fact is it makes it a little bit different than other types of social networks.   [0:16:14] P.J: A little more like true democracy going on over there.   [0:16:18] Spencer: Or a benevolent dictatorship. In the case of moderation.   [0:16:22] Patrick: If Reddit is the front page of the Internet, does that make Facebook like the national enquirer? Who's to say, hi,   [0:16:33] P.J: Let's move on. We got a little of time left. Last article of the day. Warby Parker's new shopping tool lets you try on and buy glasses virtually using your iPhone's camera. So now this article is Warby Parker announced new shopping tool and it's more convenient for iPhone owners, Virtual Try-on. The tool, which lives inside the glasses by mail companies app is available on February 4th. So this Monday it just launched. The caveat is you'll need an iPhone X, iPhone XR or iPhone XS to take advantage. So not just for iPhone users. If you have an old school iPhone, you're not going to be able to use this thing either. Spencer, you wear glasses sometimes, right?   [0:17:13] Spencer: Yep. You got me.   [0:17:15] P.J: You guys can't see. But sometimes he wears glasses. Do you have feelings on this? Do you get ex ... Does this get you excited?   [0:17:22] Spencer: [inaudible]radio? Yeah. Not really. I'm pretty straight forward. When I went to go buy my most recent pair of glasses, went to a store in New York, asked the guy for some help. He picked out two pairs, tried them on, chose one, locked out. And I might be an anomaly there, but I think from-   [0:17:41] P.J: Boom! I love that.   [0:17:42] Spencer: But I think this is really interesting to me because it sort of solves two problems. One is it's helping people try glasses. It's lowering friction to make a purchase. The second is it's giving people a better sense of what they're going to look like without going in the store. So it's going to reduce the likelihood that they need to go in and make a return or [inaudible] me back in, which of course has a cost to Warby. So hopefully for for them the business outcome is it's increasing revenue, making the purchase easier and they're reducing their operating costs by reducing the number of returns.   [0:18:16] Patrick: Yeah. To me, reading the article and there was a lot of buzz about this. This story appeared multiple of the new sources that I read on a regular basis and while it's cool and definitely the benefits that Spencer's talking about are real. I also didn't understand necessarily the getting as much buzz as it did because to me it just feels like they took Snapchat filters and turn them into [crosstalk] Whoa, we can do now what Snapchat could do two years ago and it's just Warby Parker glasses instead of like Elton John glasses. I mean it's cool, but I want the Elton John one.   [0:18:55] Spencer: Yeah.   [0:18:56] Patrick: So it's just definitely cool and I think there's obviously a business case to be made from a technology perspective. It wasn't super exciting. I think there's other use cases for AR for things like the way that Wayfair and other furniture stores are doing it where you can see, you can overlay a couch in a living room type of thing that would be more valuable than, productize smart Snapchat filter.   [0:19:21] Spencer: So you don't wear glasses do you?   [0:19:22] Patrick: I do not.   [0:19:29] P.J: 20-20 vision. I honestly just don't trust that augmented reality fit. I don't think it'll necessarily match real life. And I guess it's for two reasons. One, I just don't trust that just looking at yourself with this augmented pair of glasses on will necessarily look the way to look in real life. Also, we're not even considering the feel. the feel of a pair of glasses has to feel right. You know, so until they have augmented feeling technology out, I'm not buying.   [0:19:57] Patrick: Well, the other thing I was thinking about too, along those lines, PJ is 97% of Americans won't freaking order groceries, but there's going to be some huge wave of people putting something on their face every day that they saw on an app.   [0:20:11] P.J: That's what I'm talking about.   [0:20:13] Patrick: Hot tech Spencer. I don't know.   [0:20:14] P.J: There it is. It's called augmented reality. It's inherently different. It's like if you think about catching a charter as art in Pokemon go is so different from trying to catch on in real life. Have you ever tried, it's entirely different. Wait, one more question for you guys. What I want to hear, what's an augmented reality app that you're just hankering for that you just really want? And I'll give you a second to think. Well, I'll tell you mine and you know, growing up I was very into a Tamagotchi if you guys remember those little pet on your key chain, but just like a cool little Tamagotchi that only I can see my pet. No one can see them. I look around where is he? Okay. There he is on the ground. You've got to feed them. You got to take care of them. And then you know when it comes to having to really take care of him, like you just close the app, close the phone. I don't need to worry about buying pet food or any of that stuff. Something that makes me feel like I have a little buddy.   [0:21:08] Patrick: So an AR Tamagotchi   [0:21:09] P.J: An AR Tamagotchi you heard it here first.   [0:21:12] Patrick: Wow. Here's all my money. [inaudible]   [0:21:17] Spencer: You don't use Reddit. You don't order groceries online, you don't think that trying glasses on with your phone is a good idea. But they are Tamagotchi.   [0:21:26] P.J: I am on Facebook so you can find just about out of time here. You guys, thanks so much for being on here with me. This is PJ Bruno.   [0:21:35] Patrick: Patrick [inaudible]   [0:21:36] Spencer: And Spencer Burke.   [0:21:37] P.J: signing off. You guys take care. [0:21:39]

This show originally aired on the Big Seance Podcast - Ep 132 "Straight Dudes! Get Thyself to a Spirit Triangle!" and was produced by Patrick Keller. Where are all the straight men in the metaphysical and spiritual communities? Patrick Keller of the Big Seance podcast hosted a "triangle table" chat with Ash Riley of In My Sacred Space and Slade Roberson of Shift Your Spirits. We talk about ... the divine feminine, LGBTQ spirituality, coming out of the (spiritual) closet, and how to make spirituality more accessible to the elusive straight male. A fun, lively, original discussion of some rarely approached topics! GUEST LINKS - ASH RILEY InMySacredSpace.com In My Sacred Space Discussion Group on Facebook In My Sacred Space on Instagram GUEST LINKS - PATRICK KELLER BigSeance.com Big Seance Podcast HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition FACEBOOK GROUP Shift Your Spirits Community BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Ash: I've decided that I am a connector. Slade: Yes. Patrick: Yes. Ash: That's what I do. I reach out to people, and I meet people and I connect them with other people, because, I don't know. I just feel like, oh! You guys should know each other because I like you and I like you. You should like each other. Slade: I feel very much the same way. I consider myself a matchmaker, and I used to do it even when I was in corporate. I would hire people and put them in certain places to work with other people. I have six marriages that resulted from that and... Ash: Holy -----! Slade: And there are at least three children that I can claim. Ash: You can start a business on that! Patrick: I remember you saying that, yeah. Slade: I don't know that I could do it if I did it intentionally with a romantic intention involved. But if I do it in the context of maybe work or, yeah, like you said, just recognizing, you guys should know each other. Like, my Automatic Intuition program has become this party that I host. And whenever I add someone to it, it becomes increasingly more difficult to screen people to become a part of that. You know what I'm saying? It gets to be more and more kind of delicate and intricate. And that's what I think about when somebody's like, I want to take your program! I'm thinking, okay, what's the seating chart here, at the dinner table? You know what I mean? Ash: I feel like when I meet people that I want to introduce to other people, it's because I feel like they're gonna vibe and it's like a certain energy that I get from them. I feel they're similar. Slade: Yeah, I mean I would love it if people would do that to me. I mean, it does happen. People do introduce me to people, but I have become, especially with all this podcasting stuff, really kind of aware of the fact that, it's interesting that you say that, because I feel like my power is in introducing people to other people, also on a scale of like, discovering someone, or finding this person and being like, why aren't thousands of people listening to this woman? Ash: Yeah, yeah! Slade: You know? And interviewing them and I'm not interested in interviewing people who are already famous, or have more followers than I do, or whatever. Even though Patrick does. Patrick: Do you know how many people I've had the opportunity to, and I just go, and I either drop the ball and don't do it, or it just doesn't feel right. And the ones that I have interviewed that have been, you know, bigger names, just like landed in my lap. Ash: I've always wanted to... I mean, I have a decent following for what I do and the amount of effort that I put into it. It's not spectacular, but I recognize that I have a much bigger platform than a lot of other people. When I do meet those people who I think, Gawd, people should know who this person is! That's why I always want to give them an opportunity to be exposed to my audience at least, because I'm like, if I meet somebody and I believe in them and what they're talking about, I think that that's really valuable for other people. Slade: Well you're also displaying your talent for recognizing that in other people. And people come to associate you with someone who has cool people on their platform. You know what I mean? I don't want people to feel like I have a bunch of canned interviews, or.. Ash: Right! Slade: I want them to think, Wow! He always finds these people that I would've never known about otherwise but I'm so glad that I do. That's the feeling that I want them to have. And I also want the people who are on the show to feel like it's a big deal for them. To feel like, either they love the show already so it's really cool for them to get to be on it, or they feel like, Wow, I went on the show and now I have so many more people listening to me. Or I've got so many new clients from that or whatever, and to be really excited about it. Because we do this stuff so much more frequently now than the average person that we might put on. There's just an energy about having someone be excited about being a part of what you're doing. And being excited about being a collaborator and it comes through. You can feel it. You know what I mean? When you listen to a show with somebody who's really excited and happy to be there, even if they're kind of nervous or something. Ash: Absolutely. Patrick: So, I'm just considering this thing started. Slade: Well why don't you tell everybody how we met, because I'd love to know what your perspective is on how we all three know each other. Patrick: I think I talked a little about it when I had each of you on the show, but I think I talked about it the most when Ash was on the show, and in my... it's not really a previous blogging life, because a podcast is just kind of an extension of what I started doing with the blog. I met Ash through her blog, and I think when I realized she was from my area, that's when we started talking. I think I had, you might remember this, Ash, I don't know exactly how... If like, I messaged you or you messaged me. Or maybe you commented on my blog or something, but we started communicating pretty regularly. I had lots of questions for her about my website. She had already been in the blogging world and I was still learning about it. I think we were talking about how I was experiencing the intense early part of my spiritual shift. We've all talked about this, where I couldn't get enough books about it. And I couldn't stop reading about it and... Ash: The information-gathering phase. Patrick: Yes! Yes. And I was overwhelmed and I think Ash was like, You know, there's this dude that I need to connect you with because he's real. That's how I got connected with your blog. I don't think I actually communicated with you until quite a bit later, Slade, but I was following you and learning from you at that time. Slade: Cool. Patrick: Then I think you reached out to me, Slade, before you started your fabulous podcast and Ash always pops up in topics, like, Ash said this, or Ash is so... Ash: SURPRISE! Here I am! Slade: From the closet. Ash: Like a jack-in-the-box. Patrick: By the way everybody, I made Ash sit in her closet because that's the greatest place for someone with a mobile laptop to record for acoustics, and it turns out her closet is basically a spiritual oasis and is beautiful. Slade: There's fashion in there too. Patrick: Yes! Ash: When I come out of the broom closet, it's like literally the spiritual broom closet here. Slade: It really is what I would expect your closet to be in the best kind of way. My closets are very suburban and not exciting at all. They are arranged by ROYGBIV and they all have the same exact hanger on every item of clothing, I will say that. Those are my two. Ash: You're not OCD either. Slade: No, not at all. I have a south node in Virgo, I've discovered, which is where I get all my perfectionism in this lifetime from. Ash: I have a south node in Sagittarius, which is where I get all of my bluntness. Slade: Oh good! I like Sagittarius energy. We can trust it. That we're getting the exact, undistilled, unvarnished... Ash: The unvarnished truth. Slade: Yes. I like that. I like that quality. Patrick: I just wanted to tell people that we were, when we decided to do this, I don't know whose idea it was first, but it just... Ash: It was me! I said we should do this. It would be like the Avengers except with a better ending than Age of Ultron. Patrick: It just makes sense that it happened, because... Slade: We end up talking about each other anyway. If any two of us are together, the other person's name gets invoked, so... Patrick: Yes. Ash: We're like the Holy Trinity. Patrick: Yes! And by way of joking, it's funny. We discussed what we were going to talk about and I don't know if you guys ended up being serious, but I was just joking and coming up with all these funny, ha ha things just to entertain people. And it ended up that we came up with the curious thing that there are more women and gay men in our spiritual, psychic, metaphysical world, and not a lot of straight men. Like, what's up with straight men? Where are the straight men? And I think Ash said something like, I think I copied and pasted it here, she said something like... Hang on... Slade: He's got receipts, Ash. Patrick: I apparently didn't copy. But you said something funny about, "Where are the straight men at, yo?" Or...Oh! I know! "When are straight men gonna get their sh*t together??" is what you said. Something like that. Ash: Yeah! Slade: Mmm... I have some theories about why it is a women-gay-men alliance predominantly. That's pretty easy to speak to. And it's so weird because when we were joking about this topic, we're kind of joking about it but then I was like, That's actually kind of a real thing that I observe all the time. It came up in conversation with so many people over the next few days. Ash: Oh, really? Slade: There were other people who commented on it as well. It came up in a really super woo-woo way when someone told me, at the teahouse I go to, the next day, she brought up the fact that a lot of women were murdered for witchcraft during the Inquisition are reincarnating at this time. And that there were a lot of gay men that were crucified along with them. That is a very common lore, or whatever. It's where the term 'faggot' literally comes from. Patrick: Ooo explain that more. How does that...? Slade: Well, they burned them along with the witches but in the context of like, Okay, we're going to have this big grand inquisition inquiry public burning to kill 1 or 2 or 3 women at a time, but then they just take a handful of queers and throw them in just as kindling, just to dispose of them. It wasn't even like, they didn't even waste a lot of energy on having a specific murder event for us, you know? So the term 'faggot' refers to kindling, sticks that you throw in the fire to help it start burning. And that's kind of one of the origins of that disparaging term, or whatever. So I was talking to this woman the day after you and I, the three of us, were kind of tossing that concept around. Where are all the straight dudes?? She just came out of nowhere with this idea that those souls are reincarnating right now. And I'm not a huge past-life, reincarnation, that's not a rabbit hole that I go down really often. But I will always engage anyone in a conversation about it that wants to talk about it. Yeah, she was like, "There's all these witches, the souls of all these women, who have chosen to reincarnate at this time." It's, you know, I'm just passing it on. Ash: You just recently did an interview with Susan Grace, which is a long-time friend of mine as well. One of the things that she talks about pretty regularly is how... I would need to go back and... I think she's mentioned it in every single reading she's done for me in the last year. Astrologically, we're coming back around through a cycle, and I can't remember which planet it is, but... Patrick: I can read your comment. Or actually it's Slade's comment. Slade said that she said something about the planetoid Regulus causing a 2,000 reign of men. That is over in 2020. Ash: So I think that might be what she's talking about, is the last time this happened was, it put us into the Dark Ages, which was the time when women were being burned at the stake for being witches. It was a suppression of the feminine. That cycle is ending in the next five years. And it's kind of coming on right now. So you're seeing a lot of that collective pain and energy from that time coming up from beneath the surface for healing. Patrick: Mmm... Slade: I like the thought of it being kind of a cultural zeitgeist, or like an ancestral DNA kind of thing where it's just in our collective psyche to deal with that again. So I don't even think it has to be as literal a story as 'those souls are reincarnating', like they're all hanging out, going, "Okay, now's the time. Let's go y'all!" Like it's a suffragette march. I like to back out of those things, you know what I mean? I like to zoom out a couple of notches when talking about those things and imagine it in more of a, I don't know, mystical, collective consciousness kind of archetypal thing. Ash: Mmhmm. Slade: Like for some reason, I'm more happy and more comfortable getting onboard with that. In the way that you described it, as being like, that, whatever it was that's been repressed, we're not standing on its throat anymore. Of course it's gonna get up and wake back up again. Or, if nothing else, it's gonna have to be processed and dealt with differently than it has been. Another way that this has come up, which isn't as specific as, 'Where are straight men?' and 'Why are women and gay men the allies in new age spiritual movements?' But in my Shift Your Spirits community, someone was posting about how Wicca and pagan-identified religion was really on the rise in the United States. And I told her in a comment, I said, I've actually been hearing that since the 1980s. It started in the 1970s actually, that identification as a witch is one of the fastest growing religious identities in the United States and has been our entire lifetimes. Like it's not just happening. It's something that's BEEN happening for awhile, so I'm down with that. Patrick: Well if I may come down to Earth for a second and let's just talk about, like Ash said, I can't even think of more than a handful of straight psychics, for example. Ash: Straight, male psychics. Patrick: Straight male psychics, thank you. What is it about... Is there something about the feminine, or, you know, there probably are a lot of gay men who want to smack me when I refer to them as feminine, but is there something about the brain of the feminine side or what makes... Is it more capable of getting into the spiritual and all of that...? Ash is raising her hand. Ash: So, just to back up, everybody has masculine and feminine energy in them. I think that we have genderized that concept and that's not necessarily the case. It's just a way to refer to an archetype. Think of it more in terms of yin and yang, where yin is the feminine aspect. It's the receptive. It's what's connected to the "Divine". So I think that the reason why we see more gay male psychics than we do straight male psychics is because they are more in tune with that energy. And that is the gateway through which we pull in psychic information, archetypally speaking. I'm a tarot nerd and I love going through tarot archetypes but the archetype of the card, of the Lovers in the Major Arcana, it shows that. The traditional depiction of it is a man looking at a woman and the woman is looking up at a god-like angelic figure. The message within that card is that it's through the feminine that we reach that sort of enlightenment. Divine energy. Slade: I also want to throw in the fact that I think that whenever you exclude people from a social order where they're not in power, by virtue of survival or being able to make things happen for themselves, they have to become more resourceful and they have to learn how to do things in ways that people who, let's say you're heteronormative, white male in this culture. Sometimes there's a lot of things that happen for you that you don't have to think about, in the same way that someone who is excluded from that, whether they're a woman, or they're a minority, ethnically, or they're a gay man, we have to go around and find windows, unlock doors and sometimes tunnel our way in if we can't go through the front door. So I have a theory that that's also one of the reasons why gay people are considered more creative. Patrick: That's interesting. Slade: Or that women have an eye for the way that energies are interacting in a space in a different kind of way. I don't think it's about the fact that we are... I do agree with everything you said about being more in touch with receptive energy. And also being released socially to experience that, you know? Women actually have it shoved down their throat. Gay men come to it by exclusion, well I might as well! But I think that there's something that happened with the programming of straight men that is a little bit more on autopilot sometimes. And one thing that I will say for the straight dudes, because we've got a couple out there, and I can name them, but I won't embarrass them, but something that I've noticed about the straight men who ARE our allies, who we do find at our party, is that they're the real deal. They're the coolest of the guys. They're the ones that we all want to marry and they're the ones that probably need to be procreating more than the rest. Ash: And unfortunately, there's like two of them and all the rest of us are flinging ourselves at them. Slade: Oh, they're already married. And we meet their wives and of course she's adorable too and we hate her. Ash: That bitch. Slade: Yeah, exactly. You know, I do know these men in my life. And I think, gosh, what special kind of guys they are that they're able to shake out of that matrix, right? They are able to see through the matrix a little bit and see past that. So they are more awake. So when you do find them, they are truly empowered and powerful guys. And they do exist. But we can't ignore the fact that there's not a lot of them. And they don't tend to be working in this field the same way that we do, right? Ash: Yeah. One guy comes to mind that I discovered very recently and I completely, totally, just bought into everything. His name is John Wineland, and he's technically a relationship coach but he basically teaches yogic sexuality, and he just radiates this sacred masculine energy and it's so palpable. And you don't, I don't come across a lot of people that have that kind of presence, and who are able to talk about spirituality in a way that comes from that very masculine perspective. I think he's fantastic. If you've never read any of his work or anything, I definitely recommend checking it out. Slade: Patrick, do you have any theories? Patrick: Like in college I can think of... and I'm not a psychic or a medium, or anything like that, so I'm not going to comment on it from that angle, but for example, after coming out, or being completely honest with some of the male friends that were straight that I had in college, I think were all these people that we're talking about. Because those are the ones I connected with. They were very accepting and cool. They're not, I'm sure, psychics or mystics or anything like that. But I guess that's what I was thinking of. I also think of the future of our world, my students, when I made the decision last year to officially kind of come out to my school community, meaning parents and students and no longer worried about that. Previously, I had only been out to my staff. When I came out to my school community, I had some of the, and I'll use boys as examples, high school boys who I'd had as students in middle school, either came up and gave me a hug or told me how proud of me they were. One of them came up to me crying. And I thought, those are the cool peeps. Slade: Mmhmm. Patrick: Those are the cool kids. And, you know, I have some students now, currently, they'll say, "Hey, Mr. Keller, how's your husband?" And I'm like, that's cool. They're not afraid to be seen as 'I'm accepting this' or whatever. So I think in that way, the future is very promising. Slade: I think that that's an amazing form of activism that gets overlooked, and it a cumulative thing and it's one of the reasons why being out is important. Because it's so hard to de-humanize people when you know an actual face and name of an individual person. It makes it a little harder for people to put messages out there that are bigoted in some way because if you're someone who says, "Wait a minute, you know, they're talking about my teacher and that's not true." Therefore their whole theory is bunk. I do believe that being the person who maybe you're the first out gay person that this straight guy has been friends with before, has an impact on how he raises his son down the road. That guy that you knew in college who's like, I never knew a gay dude before, but you're cool. You just inoculated an entire potential family from future homophobia and probably misogyny as well. Because the issue with all those things are about people who are fearful and abusing people that they believe are beneath them. And one of my friends who I work out with a lot that's a straight guy who's an ally said to me, he was like, "I'm not insecure about my masculinity." The only way that you could be a misogynist or a homophobe is if you are. Ash: You know, I think that's an interesting conversation too. I always share this article in my Facebook group. It's called 'Healing the Mother Wound', and the name of the woman who's worked this is... I'm trying to find it... Bethany Webster. She also has a really great article on how that sort of mother wound plays into toxic masculinity. I think I shared a link to it in one of my more recent blog posts. Women talk a lot about men needing to take responsibility for how women have been treated for centuries and centuries and centuries. But also, there's a very important aspect here of, women also have to take responsibility for how we've raised our boys to be a part of that culture as well, and how toxic femininity has fed into toxic masculinity. So I think, you know, in the midst of the #MeToo movement and how feminism is kind of gaining this momentum right now. We also have to, at some point, stop and also accept our role as women in what we've also helped to perpetuate in some ways by being unconscious. Just as unconscious as the unconscious masculine. Slade: You're right. This polarity that's introduced by genderifying it, genderizing it, I can't remember what term you use, but by making it about masculine and feminine instead of making it about receptive versus projective energy, or dominant versus receiving, or all those different kind of terms, there's a lot of ways to talk about that stuff where it's not gender. And this gender thing is kind of like the first basic form of social division, you know? We keep talking about how our culture's still so divided. That's like a basic division that has been going on for who knows how long, right? The idea there, for a little while, that, before the #MeToo movement, there was kind of a meme within feminism about how feminism was humanism. Like, to be a feminist was essentially to be a humanist. And I know Justin Trudeau even brought that up recently when asked in an interview if he considered himself a feminist. And he said yes and that's why. So I think that there are a lot of reasons why women would perpetuate a system that is misogynistic, because there are some women who would perceive themselves to be still elevated enough within that system that they wouldn't rock the boat. They'd rather indoctrinate their daughters in order to inhabit those positions of influence, however small they may be, as opposed to the real work of what Susan talked about. Susan Grace said everything is going to be re-built. And part of what's happening is, everything's gonna fall apart first, you know? In order to renovate stuff, you have to blow it up. And I think that, you know, my feeling politically, culturally and humanistically is that we are watching a lot of stuff unravel. And one of the things about her message that was so meaningful to me is: You want it to break apart. Because we can't put it back together in a different way until it comes apart. So... that may have been a tangent... Patrick: I would love to bring something up, and that is, I mean, it goes along with everything we've talked about. But I've had a few guests on my show discuss how this women's suffrage movement happened... I mean, it's hand-in-hand with the spiritualist movement. And that was maybe kind of the first #MeToo era. And so I would just be curious to know what we think, now that we are having this #MeToo movement and many people have referred to it as Another Year of the Woman, or The Year of the Woman. What's that mean for spiritual peeps? Like us? What's it going to do to, if it was connected with the spiritual movement before, what's that do now? Ash: I think you see them kind of rising in parallel. And I think that's because, again, it goes back to that connection with the Divine Feminine and spirituality and that's how we're rising right now. Slade: I think women also are more receptive and use the principles that we teach and speak and talk about. Women have already mainstreamed a lot of new age culture to be tools in their tool box. The average woman is much more likely, in the United States, and I don't know, I can't speak to other cultures but here it feels like even people that, 10 or 20 years ago, we would feel like would never be seen chanting or burning incense or in a yoga class or something like that. A lot of that stuff has just become a regular part of women's toolbox of self-care, right? Women don't hesitate to seek things like readings, as one of their sources of information. And they're much more likely to pass along a lot of their information to their spouses. Like, I know a lot of guys whose partners and wives are getting readings from me. But I've even had situations where the husband is on the phone, or the information is clearly intended to be for the couple, but it's kind of like, it seems to be women who are just really comfortable with dialing that in. So I feel like if women are in a position of power and are in a position to make more decisions, they're going to include those kind of tools and making it more available. And it will just be like, not as big of a deal to say, have something like that taught in a classroom, right? Do you understand what I'm trying to get at? Ash: I have a question for you guys, and this is something that I've kind of pondered from time to time. And this could go off on a tangent as well. I talk about coming out of the spiritual closet, and I think that there's a lot of similarities in being a spiritual person and sort of being discriminated against in certain ways for your personal beliefs. In that regard, I think a lot of that parallels being gay and having to hide who you are from the world too. So I'm curious, especially with you guys, you're real spiritual and homosexual, so how does that... I don't know, let's talk about that. Slade: Hmm... Well, I will say this. It's easier to be out of your closet as part of your sexual identity than it was for me as a spiritual identity. I withheld THAT for much, much longer. Even though they both were happening in parallel in my awareness, I was actually more sensitive to the idea that I could be victimized for talking about hearing voices, being intuitive, being sensitive to spirits, knowing things about people. I was MUCH more afraid somebody was going to throw my ass in a sanitarium over that stuff than I was that I might be victimized for my sexual orientation. That has been my experience is that, it actually might be harder to come out of the spiritual closet. Ash: I mean, I know for a fact, over the last 5, 6, 7 years that I've been doing this and have been administrating Facebook groups that many, many, many people are still afraid to be out about their spirituality. Because they are terrified of what friends and family are going to think, about how people are going to react, they're afraid of losing their jobs, their credibility, and I kind of agree with what you're saying. I've never experienced having to come out about my sexuality, but I know that in terms of spirituality, that's been a really... It wasn't something that I just, you know, threw the door open and said, "Here I am!", dressed like Miss Cleo. It was sort of slow bits and pieces. I kind of just pushed it out there and I think maybe people just kind of saw it as an evolution. Slade: Like first you're bisexual for men, women... Ash: Right. Slade: You're really gay and everybody knows you're on your way to gay, but maybe you test the waters with the bi. Ash: Psy-curious. Slade: Psy-curious. There's your title for this show, Patrick. Patrick: Well I joked around about how it's a triangle-table discussion instead of a round-table discussion and that works too. Triangle, gay, bi-curious. Slade: Gosh, right?? So many layers... Patrick: Well I can tell you that I don't know that I relate it to coming out or being gay as much because I have considered myself very lucky. I had a very smooth coming out process and I haven't really had a lot of, at least that my eyes are open to, a lot of discrimination thrown against me since coming out in my senior year of high school. But I can tell you that I think part of my fear, like Slade is saying, of coming out of the spiritual closet, which I do, like Slade, that's more of a fear for me. It's harder when you have a podcast about it because everybody's like, "Yeah, he's a weirdo." Ash: What about blog?? I didn't even want to put my face on my own blog for three years. Patrick: Yeah? Ash: You know? Slade: Okay, you're a weirdo. Patrick: But what I was going to say is that I really have been also running away from organized religion my whole life and growing up Southern Baptist. And so, also, part of even though I'm so done with that and have left it behind, and I'm still running far away from it, worried about what people think, I guess, if you start talking about certain subjects. And I do have people give me weird looks because I don't have a lot of people in my community that are just kind of open to, "Hey, so let's talk SPIRITUALISM!" That type of thing. I do remember being more concerned about it when I was early on in the spiritual shift, that time period we were talking about earlier, when I was obsessed with EVP for example, and talking about spirit voices and people are like, "Uh........... I'm gonna go now........." Ash: I remember having a conversation with... I had several of these conversations actually, in a short period of time. I talked to my mom about it. I talked to some friends about it. And I had people, my best friend, ask me if she needed to call me an ambulance. I had people basically tell me I was delusional. My mom just kind of laughed it off and was like, "Oh, that's great. That's funny." And changed the subject. Really quickly. I had a lot of people change the subject very quickly. Slade: What was the ambulance gonna be for? Ash: Because I'm crazy, apparently. Slade: To bring the straitjacket. They need an ambulance to deliver the straitjacket. Ash: Do you have a head injury? But what IS funny is that since those conversations, a lot of those people have actually shifted on over with me. Slade: Oh, cool! Can I say something about my observations with this? Because this is something that I get asked a lot, and I work with a lot of people who are smackdab right there on the cliff. A lot of people are emerging and putting themselves out, not only as a spiritual person, but identifying themselves as a psychic, right? Or an intuitive, or whatever the case may be. And so, I hear these questions a lot. And I will say this, who you're imagining.... First of all, if you're in that space where you're like thinking, Ohmygosh, all these people are gonna think I'm nuts. I want you to sit down and see if you can make an actual list of who those people are. Are there actual people who think that? And is there more than three? Because sometimes you feel like, Oh there's all these people, and it's like, Okay, who are they? Well, my mom and this person over there, I don't really know, but I bet they would. It kind of falls apart a little bit and you start to realize how much you're pumping a lot of that up to be maybe more than it really is. And I'm not discounting the people who do say beep to you like you're delusional. But they are a minority. So what happens when you do just say, "You know what? I'm not going to convince anyone of anything. But I'm going to put what I think out there." It's like you're running a flag up a flag pole and all the people who agree with you, there's actually more of them in the closet than you ever realize, and they start approaching you and whispering, "Hey, by the way, I love your podcast." Ash: Exactly! Slade: That happens to me at the gym! Like it's a secret. Like I'm a drug dealer or something. You know what I mean? Ash: I had the same experience though. Like I would also meet people who, you know, I would tell them about some kind of weird paranormal experience that I've had and they'd be like, "You know what? This also happened to me one time." And it seems like everybody HAS had at least one of those stories that they've always been reticent to share with someone because they don't know how that person's gonna react, and they don't know if that's a safe space. Slade: Right. Ash: Just by you being yourself and being open, you give them permission to also do that. Patrick: It's like a very therapeutic moment for them too. In those situations. I've had a few of those. They've been like, at the xerox machine. Those have been a lot of where these conversations have happened for me. Where they're like, "Oh, you know, I know you're into this stuff so I have this, the other night I had this blahblahblah..." Just them getting it out of their system is, you know, I feel like I was their therapist or something. Slade: Feeling somebody that could witness them. And just to tie up what I was trying to get at with, can you list the people who are supposedly going to think you're nuts? You might. You might get a handful. But now when you start to list all the people who've emailed you and said, "Ohmygod, I love your podcast", or who have emailed you with their stories, and I know both of you get emails from people who tell you their life story and it's so vulnerable and so personal, and they've chosen YOU to be the person to tell, right? And if we start to make a list of those people, the point that I'm trying to make for everyone out there who's feeling fearful of what the people who are gonna judge you negatively are going to think, when you start to really pool and list and add up all the people who are going to be connected to you because of it, or are gonna identify you as a safe person to talk to, or gonna agree with you or be interested in what you have to say, that population is so overwhelmingly larger, don't you think? Patrick: Yeah. It's just fear that keeps us assuming that we wouldn't be accepted. Slade: Yeah. We're afraid of what those 10 people are gonna think, that we don't even really like anyway. Meanwhile, there's a football stadium full of people who are like, "Bring it on!" And what you realize when you walk through that portal, that vortex, and go through to the other side, you go, "Ohmygod, there's tons of people here." That's the first thing that really happens, is people flock to you because you have run a flag up and said, "I'm someone you can talk to about this." That is a courageous act. Those of you who do put yourselves out there and do that are creating an opening for all those other people who can't. And creating a moment for them at this xerox machine, that they wouldn't have had otherwise. So I think that that's the way it happens. And I understand why it's scary, and also understand that once you're on the other side of it, you'll think, What the hell was I waiting on?? Ash: Yeah. Patrick: Kinda like when I came out this last year. I was like, why couldn't this have happened years ago? Because honestly when I started teaching 17 years ago, I always assumed that there would never be that moment. That I would be, I would have to wait until I was retired, to live that 100% out of the closet experience again. Why couldn't it have happened at least five years ago? I don't know about 17 years ago, but... Slade: Well, I mean, the reason why it doesn't happen is because there is a very real danger that something really bad could happen to you. You could be targetted in some way. I mean, I don't want to say that, just by being brave and doing it, that that will make all of that stuff go away. Ash: Your dad could try to give you an exorcism in a public parking lot. Patrick: Or your parents could throw you out of the house as a teenager. Slade: Yeah. Patrick: And those things happen. There are very real dangers of, well, I'm sure coming out of the spiritualist closet for some, there might be a very real danger of someone, depending on where you live, or what your family situation is... Slade: I live in the Bible belt. I know what it's like to be surrounded by fundamentalists all the time. To the point where sometimes I feel like, maybe I actually have some kind of programming that I'm numb to it now. Because when I travel to other parts of the country that are different in some way, I think, Wow! Even the average redneck on the street is liberal! It feels like I'm in Oz or something and it makes me aware of the fact that I do live in a place that is so conservative. But I will say this. The bigotry is on both sides a little bit because I have such an expectation of these people around me, who maybe identifies as Christian or whatever, being unable to process what I do or connect with it in some way. I'm often finding that I'm the one who's being narrow-minded. They do come up to me and approach me and sometimes people who are mystical people in a religious way are actually much more able to talk about mysticism period. I've found that little old ladies who identify really strongly with Jesus are MUCH more open to the idea that your grandfather visits you at night. They don't bat an eye about spirit visitation at all. Or the existence of angels, some of these things that are part of the new age... Ash: In some cases, I feel like they've just lived long enough to have those experiences. Slade: Right. And it's a matter of vocabulary. At some point you have to ask yourself, she's using the term she's using because of the time period that she grew up in, and the education and spiritual system she was indoctrinated into. That's her vocabulary and that's her words for it. I often find myself putting it on myself to do the translating. The angry, younger version of myself was like, "Nah! This is BULLsh*t!" Like, in your face about it. Now I'm much more compassionate and empathetic to the fact that, you know what, I'll do the translating. I'm not gonna force them to accept my goddess vocabulary because sometimes that shuts people down just because they can't process what it is that... You're using a word that they've never heard before and their mind shuts off at, "What? Did he just refer to God as a woman..?" or whatever. And then they don't hear everything you say afterwards. And so I have learned to do the translating myself. And even though it wears me out sometimes, and I wish everybody was a little bit more fluid with their vocabulary, sometimes I have to look through the words that they're using and look at the energy of what they're trying to communicate. And say, "Okay, I get what she's saying. She's talking about empathy. She's talking about psychic receptivity. And she's just couching it in, a more conservative way of talking about it." So it does go both ways a little bit. I'm just owning that for myself. Patrick: Word. If I try to bring us back to the initial question, keeping in mind that we know that there are straight men, for example, who are our buds and who are completely down with all of this. And they're probably the ones throwing their phone across the room right now as they're listening. Because they're like, "Why can't you see me and hear me?" And just as there might be women who are completely lost on what we're talking about, and aren't down with it. Keeping that in mind, how do we bring straight men in, or is it possible to bring straight men in? Do they have to do it themselves? Ash: Ooo good question. Patrick: Well I am a genius! Ash: There is no off position on the genius switch. Slade: For myself, I will say this. The same thing I was kind of talking about stepping out there and running a flag up the flag pole and letting people identify with you. So I think you live your example and you gather the other people along with you and you create those spaces. And you make sure that guys feel welcome when they do show up. As far as recruiting them, that seems like a different kind of situation. I don't know that we can do that. I think that we need to make sure that we're not excluding the men that want to participate. The straight guys that wander into our meditation circle or whatever it might be. And I do think that one of the things that could be different for Ash, for example, with the community she runs from mine, I do get a lot of male clients. And I get a lot of younger guys that come to me for readings, and I think that they do feel more comfortable just because there is a man present in the room, gives them a kind of permission to participate. Even though I'm very out about my sexual identity, I do feel like sometimes the guys who show up to participate with us, it helps to see a couple of dudes in the room. Ash: I totally concur with that. I was having a conversation with a friend just a couple of weeks ago about how there's not a lot of masculine voices when it comes to spirituality, particularly not straight male masculine voices. And I feel like there's a really big... Everybody wants to be able to see someone in a space that looks like them. And we always talk about how it's always a white male everywhere you go, EXCEPT where we are, you know? Straight, white male. So I think that's also a big barrier for those guys, is that they don't see a lot of people like themselves in our communities. So I think it's hard for them to be able to identify in some ways. Slade: I send a lot of men who are looking for relationships into those environments, particularly when straight guys who are in their late 20s and they come and have readings about their love life and where they can go to meet people. I do send them into those environments because I know... Patrick: You have match-making services also? Slade: Right! Just to bring that back in. The fact of the matter is, if you are one of those men and you're really a special, unique, you know, maybe minority. But listen, if you want to be like the coolest person that ever walked through the room at yoga class, go to a yoga class as a straight man, as a place of putting yourself out there and saying, I'm a different kind of man. I can't imagine that you wouldn't have lots more opportunities to meet the kind of women that you want to meet. Ash: Exactly. Slade: You know, like those environments for the right kind of mindset, like if you're the kind of guy that thinks, You know what, I'm comfortable enough with myself. I don't mind being the only guy in the room. You get a kind of attention for being the only man in the room with a bunch of women. Even when I was in college, I would take these women's studies classes (I have a Women's Studies certificate), and back then, they would give you a certificate if you took certain classes that were within other disciplines and fields and but they didn't have a major for it yet. So if you took history classes that were designated as a women's studies history class, eventually if you had enough of those credits, they would give you a certificate. So I would often take, say, for instance, a literature class or history class or politics class that was a women's studies class, because it was more interesting. The topic was more specific and granular and meaty in some way. And I would find myself in these classrooms where I was the only man. And even though I was a gay man, I still was the only MAN. And there is an attention that you get from women when you're the only dude in the room. And so I would think, that for a straight dude, that sounds like a great spot to be in. Ash: Just walk into the room, turn to the women and go, "Oh heeeeey!" Slade: So we are recommending that for your spiritual growth and edification, as well as your dating life, straight dudes, get thyself to a... Ash: Spiritual circle! Slade: Spiritual circle. Patrick: Right away. So Ashley, what do I call this episode? Ash: Mmm... I don't know... Good Times in the Spiritual Closet? Patrick: Actually, I kind of like, Get Thee to a Spiritual Circle. Ash: Or triangle? Patrick: Or triangle! Slade: Ohmygosh. Patrick: Ash. Tell us what's going on in your sacred space, besides the closet that you're sitting in now? That could look like anyone's living room or bedroom, and it's your closet. So tell us what's going on in your world. Ash: Oh... my world is quickly shifting and changing and I'm honestly not 100% certain where it's going right now. I just kind of started a re-brand over the summer, and I'm actually getting away from doing readings and being so focused on metaphysics and I'm kind of branching more into personal development and I'm on this big authenticity kick right now. A lot of my writing has shifted quite a bit over the last year. It's kind of taken more of a creative, emotional direction. I'm not selling anything, I'm not pedaling any wares, I have nothing to tell you other than if you just like to read my daily thoughts, you can follow me on Instagram and also subscribe to my blog. Patrick: I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That's awesome. Just BE. Ash: Yeah. I kind of decided that I'm doing this for pure enjoyment at this point, and I think that that's the best way to approach it. Especially if you want to grow something, do it because you're passionate about it, not because you need to make it happen. It's my passion project. Patrick: So you've made this cool move that a lot of people would be very jealous of. This chance to just kind of jump out there and be brave and start something and move somewhere. How many years now have you, you're in Brooklyn, right? Ash: I'm actually Jersey City. Patrick: Oh, okay. So how long have you now been an East coast nerd? Ash: It was a year in July, so almost a year and a half December. Patrick: Wow. I had thought that it'd have been longer by now. Ash: Still pretty fresh over here! Patrick: Tell everyone... It's InMySacredSpace.com, right? Ash: Yes. Patrick: And you said your Instagram is where it's at? Ash: Yup. And InMySacredSpace.com. I'm also on Facebook too, but I seem to be gravitating more towards Instagram these days. Patrick: Slade! Just recently, I see that you kind of revisited some stranger angel stuff going on at sladeroberson.com. Slade: I did! It was my most recent episode. Just talking about the phenomenon of stranger angels, which is something that I read about and podcasted about in the past, but I had a whole different take on it while travelling, really around the concept of how you can be one of these people. Like my past experiences have been all about receiving those experiences as opposed to, this time I was travelling with someone who is very actively likes to be a stranger angel. So it activated a different awareness about what it means to move through the world and interact with people that way. Patrick: What else is going on? Slade: You know, like Ash said, it's really not, for me, about pedaling anything in particular. I also believe in authenticity and I believe that putting yourself out there and talking about things that you're interested in and hosting a space where other people can do the same is a really powerful form of marketing, and you don't have to jump up and down and sell things in order to connect with people. I really do believe in the concept of marketing yourself as being... Find a group of people that you share something in common with and go be relentlessly helpful to them. Ash: I love that. I love that! Be relentlessly helpful. Slade: I have to give credit to Tim Grahl. He's something of a business mentor to me and he comes from the independent publishing community. That's his definition and it's one I've taken and borrowed. My interpretation of that has been to create space with my platform for other people to come and... It's not only about me making this content and putting it out there. That's one part of it. The authenticity. But also using my social media platform as a big keg party basically. I don't have control over it. It's not a... The Shift Your Spirits community on Facebook has been a surprising revelation in how... you know when you are in these groups where there are tens and thousands of people and no one is talking or commenting on anything, and the moderators and admin people are trying to get a discussion going and it's just fallen flat... Ash: I feel like that's how my group has become, but only because I've neglected it. Slade: Well, you know, it was one of my biggest fears, honestly, and starting a community like that was like, Ohmygod, how do I pump these people up? I thought I needed to be some kind of cheerleader or something and that's not my personality. And what I have found... Ash: No! Slade: What I've found is that by inviting all these people and just creating a space for them to talk about all the things that they want to talk about, they all have their own paranormal experiences. They all have their own spiritual modalities that they study and so I have been very hands off with the community. I'm hosting this community and that's my role. The people who participate, the members are the ones generating the discussion. I often don't even comment on the discussions because there are so many of them, and I love just kind of drifting through, quasi-invisibly, and seeing all the things that are going on. And I have to tell you, I'm really proud to have my name on something that I didn't make but that nevertheless I feel like I invited to happen. And it's really about other people. It's not about me. And when you're an author, you're an online personality or podcast host like we are, it's very easy to come from this ego space of being a performer and being like, the one who's the centre of attention. I have found that I'm moving into that. Weirdly I've become more collaborative, less about it being about me, and more about it being about everyone else. So for me right now, the growth in Shift Your Spirits is all about the people who listen to the show and interact on Facebook and create this cool space where they talk about cooler stuff than I might even think to bring up. If you'd like to check that out, by all means, we'd love to have you. Patrick: And I'll put all of the links that we mentioned two groups and Instagram and websites. And we'll put all of those in the show notes. Great idea, Ash! Ash: Thank you! Slade: That was fun! Patrick: You are a genius. Ash: I know. I'm also humble. Patrick: And I'm, right now, just so you know, I'm gonna take a screenshot selfie of all three of us on the screen. Are you ready for the countdown? Here's my classic smile. You ready? One.. Two.. Three..... Wait, did I do it right? OH NO I didn't do it right! I did it wrong! It's Command-Shift-3. One. Two. Three. YAAAAAAAY! Thank you. Slade: Fun.

Once upon a time I (Joe) had an AdWords PPC budget that hit $45,000 a month. Over 5 years I learned AdWords on my own, had no training, a half dozen campaigns and a handful of ad groups. I thought I was pretty savvy and successful. This was about 10 years ago and to be frank, I'm older, wiser, more seasoned and would tell my 10-year younger self that I was a novice and wasting a TON of money. Don't be like me. Since 2010 I have heard dozens of entrepreneurs tell me they outsourced their paid advertising unsuccessfully. So when Jason Yelowitz introduced me to Strike Social Founder I was a little skeptical. But success and growth speak for themselves. Patrick McKenna boot strapped Strike Social from his kitchen table in a rented home in LA about 5 years ago. In 2016 Strike Social was named on the Inc. 500 List for the fastest growing companies. Their rank? Number 17! Strike Social helps brands improve their paid advertising campaigns, dramatically. One example Patrick gives is an ecommerce company that had their CPA go from $80 dollars to $16. This created great problems for the client. The first was rapid growth and much better margins. The second was access (or lack thereof) to monies for inventory. As you likely know – running out of inventory is an issue. Rapidly growing brands lack access to capital, run out of inventory and lose ground on the path to growth. Strike Social does a free analysis of a client's paid ad campaigns, a free test, and when the client comes on board and grows so fast they don't have funds for enough inventory, Strike will provide working capital for inventory. If it weren't for the rank of number 17 on the Inc. 500 list and the fact that you don't get there without proving yourself, I'd say it all seems too good to be true. After chatting with Patrick on today's Podcast, I say try them out get a free review. At the very least you'll learn what you are doing right and wrong in your own paid advertising campaigns. Episode Highlights: Instagram's paid advertising platform is the next Facebook. It's working. In Google AdWords you should have 1,000+ campaigns, not 6. Facebook is content driven and ads need constant testing. Video ads in Facebook can be as short as 3-4 seconds. YouTube is great, but not for direct conversations and CPAs. Strike Social developed technology recognized by Techcrunch.com that helped propel them to #17 on the Inc. 500 list. Strike Social will provide working capital to clients so they can ramp up inventory to match growth. Transcription: Mark: So one of the things that I find most difficult and frustrating about running a business in today's internet world is this idea of having these coordinated campaigns across multiple channels and multiple platforms, and the degree to sophistication which you need to run each campaign across each platform. For example with Facebook and Google, it's not so much to do just [inaudible 00:01:25.5] a couple of key words and hoping everything works for Facebook bring up a couple of ads and hoping it works. You really have to delve in and get super detailed. I understand Joe that you talked to somebody today that's doing this for a living. And they started a company and not only have they just started and are doing well but they're ranked really high in the Inc. 500 list specializing in running these cross-platform campaigns that are really highly refined. Joe: Yeah. It's Patrick McKenna from Strike Social and about five years ago he bootstrapped a company, he was literally working from the kitchen table in a rented house in Los Angeles. And he developed software that would analyze paid advertising campaigns and then go way beyond what you normally do in an excel file and so on and so forth. Standard stuff right? Well, that's what I thought when he was introduced to me by our very own Jason Yellowitz, they're neighbors. Patrick's company Strike Social in 2016 was ranked number 16 … no number 17 on the Inc. 500 list. And I think you and I have talked about this that that's impressive, number 17 on Inc. 500 list, you don't get there by accident. You don't get there without being really really good at what you do. Over the years, the last six years that I've been doing what I'm doing I talked to dozens and dozens and I might want to say hundreds that [inaudible 00:02:49.9] of people that started their own Google Ad Account and developed it as their business grew and managed it themselves and then got to a point where they said you know what I should outsource this. And they found somebody online and they outsourced it and what happened? It failed. That cost for acquisition went up, the budget went up and they had to bring it back in-house. Dozens of times I talked to these folks. So when I first connected with Patrick I was skeptical but then we talked, went into detail and he gave me some success stories that are really truly just incredible Mark to the point where I need you to listen to this podcast and consider talking with him about Quiet Light Advertising. They do testing for free. They do an analysis with their software and they'll do a test for free as well. And then they prove themselves and then like every other agency they get paid on a percentage of spend. But here's the kicker they've taken some clients and grown their businesses so dramatically that clients run out of inventory. That's the number one thing we tell folks is don't run out of inventory. It seems so simple but when people bootstrap the company and they grow they don't have enough working capital. And I've listened to other podcast, you know the EcommCrew Mike Jackness podcast where they talk about trying to find sources of working capital for inventory. Well, Strike Social will be that source for their very own clients. Because they've run into it so many times where it was so successful the client ran out of funds to buy more inventory. So they became that working capital source. So really impressive story, I would encourage everyone to listen all the way through to the 31 minute mark where he starts to talk about the working capital aspect of it. But there's a lot of good stuff here. He talks about some basic things that everyone should do. A quick story and then I'll stop talking. But when I ran my own Google AdWords campaign for the company that you brokered for me back in 2010, the most I ever spent was $45,000 in one month on paid advertising. I worked my way up that, up up from that in 2005 to 2010. Of course, after the crash, it was much lower but at the max … at the peak, I had a total of 10 campaigns set up in Google AdWords. And I had it all done with my keywords and I used all the software at the time to find those keywords and develop them; 10 campaigns. So in talking with Patrick, he talks about that their clients have an average of 1,000 to 6,000 campaigns and that's for one product, Mark. And that just makes me think about … again, yet again how much money I lost in two ways, really on wasted advertising spending and on not making it so good that my cost for acquisition came down dramatically. And I just want to encourage everyone that's listening to think about it and listen to what they're saying and have a conversation with them because odds are you're not doing it as well as you could be if you're doing it yourself. Just like what we talked about with book keeping, Excel is not accounting software. The basic pieces that you pull together for managing your campaigns across multiple platforms is not as good as what these guys have either. And it's worth to listen to him, worth a test I think in my opinion and experience. Mark: Yeah and I really have to agree with the fact that if you're doing it in-house and look I'm running some campaigns in-house right now for both companies that I own. That for a variety of reasons … but you have to understand if you're going to run it in-house, if you're not going to have a specialist, chances are you're not going to be doing it as well as it could be done. Because AdWords is an environment that really takes specialization. Facebook is an environment that really takes specialization. Frankly, I'm saying up a good automation sequence falls in the same category as well. So I'll be interested to listen to this. I definitely will be listening to this. I'm always looking to pick up on some information. Joe: Yeah and look Instagram is also in there as well. It's something we talked about. You know when AdWords was it that was the player Facebook came along and started to become the second option. Well, Instagram is now that option to Facebook and it's really starting to work. So those that have not expanded to those channels, listen, take a look, learn. And the other thing look this wasn't a pitch for this guy's services. This was helping people understand what they may or may not be doing right or wrong in their campaigns. And he talks about three things that you can do and focus on. And at the end Mark, I didn't ask him for a contact information like at all. It's in the show notes of course but for those that only listen the company is Strike Social. It's strikesocial.com and you can email them at hello@strikesocial.com that's hello@strikesocial.com it's a … we didn't talk about it at the end so I want to throw it in now. Mark: Awesome well let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks its Joe Valley of Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Patrick McKenna with us from Strike Social. How are you, Patrick? Patrick: I'm good. How are you, Joe? Joe: I'm fantastic. Folks, anybody that knows Jason Yellowitz here at Quiet Light, you should, he's been around for I think longer than everybody except for Mark Daoust the founder of Quiet Light. Jason was my broker when I sold back in 2010 and he happens to live across the street from you right? Patrick: That's right we live in Reno, he's right across the street. Kids are always running in my house. Joe: Jason is a good man and I wouldn't mind having him as a neighbor. I often poke fun at Jason and his Bathrobe Millionaire book but it's a heck of a success story and I still don't have a piece of the bathrobe. Have you ever seen it laying around his house? Did he save it? Seriously is it like behind like a glass case hanging on the wall? Patrick: It's on the mantle sitting up there. He's very proud of that. Joe: Next time you're in I want you to take a selfie in front of it and send it to me okay? Patrick: [inaudible 00:08:47.7] Joe: Look in all seriousness Jason is top notch. He's my mentor. He's mentored to many. He's a terrific guy. And he introduced you to us. And as I mentioned before we started recording we do not do fancy introductions here at Quiet Light on the Quiet Light Podcast so I know it's going to be hard for you but I want you to brag about yourself a little bit because you have a heck of a success story. Tell us about Strike Social and what you do, what the background is and all that good stuff for us. Patrick: Sure, yeah we … you know Jason and I are sort of kindred spirits. We've been through the battle, it sounds like you have too … I mean a business is incredibly challenging. We did it like anyone else does it. We take the plunge, you bootstrap on a kitchen table out of our rental house in LA. And we started that process in March of 2013 and then we launched some technology and we got recognized in TechCrunch for this advertising technology, this analytics platform. By November after that article came out we're selling like crazy and that was some different challenges. You think initially that wow this is great and that my products rate and the market loves it. And then you start to realize that you're putting yourself out of business because you're trying to fund invoices and all those types of things that come up when you're running a business. So we went through all that stuff, raised a little money in 2014, raised a little bit more in 2015 and it's standed globally and by 2016 we're recognized in Forbes Fast 500 fastest growing companies in the US. Joe: What number were you? Patrick: Number 17. Joe: 17 out of 500? Patrick: Yeah. Joe: That's incredible. Patrick: Pretty amazing. That was up 2016 revenue numbers and we're excited to see where we land this year for Fortune List. It will be the 2018 release that will be 2017 numbers so- Joe: Got you. Patrick: It's that it so. Joe: It sounds exciting and painful all the same time. You've literally started on a kitchen table at a rental in LA. and then grew the business, bootstrapped it from there. Probably like many of the listeners who are you know the listeners that are sellers and entrepreneurs and listeners that are hoping to step into the entrepreneurial role that you're playing now. That's pretty incredible. Tell us about what Strike Social does and who your typical customers are. Patrick: Right. So initially we went out to the largest agencies in the world and we sold execution services around advertising. So initially we started with YouTube now we're across all the social platforms and search as well. But we would basically like take on and execute buys for their largest customers. So our customers will be X-box in PNG and pick any Fortune 100 brand, the big guys. And then we started doing that here in the US then we went to Asia and then went to Europe and I don't know if you know who the holding companies are but you know WPP [inaudible 00:12:17.3], the big guys that I mostly don't talk to a smaller company. So it was really nice to have that reign for us to go sell in to and it was a really profitable situation for us. And we kept building technology and investing in technology and people and locations. We have a location here in Chicago where we're headquartered. And then we have a location in Poland and a location in Manila. We've got about a hundred people here now and we've got boots on the ground from Japan, and Korea, and Australia, obviously the US, Singapore, Europe. So it's been a really really fun ride and yes you go through all of the emotional ups and downs of running a business when you're buying one. Joe: Yeah. Good problems with that kind of growth, really good problems. Talk to me about the technology that you developed that originally got you recognized in I think you said TechCrunch and you said analytics platform. Can you talk about the actual service and why someone would use … like why these B2B advertising agencies would use yours versus having an expert in-house do it. What does it do and what's different about it that made you the 17th fastest growing company in 2016? Patrick: Yeah I think when video first came out I think it was really challenging for companies to understand, it is kind of a new medium, how do I be successful here? So our analytics platform so they showed them how to be successful. But what we did is we executed the media guys. So we look like a typical agency, we don't really like that word because we built software solution to help us with that. And then overtime what we've done is we built this incredible artificial intelligence box that allows us to go across platform, plan and execute strategies. And so it's all … it's a human and technology solution combined. And like I talked about advertising now it's a complicated orchestra. And what you need at the end of that is execution so … and we can talk about that more but it's very challenging to stay up to date on these platforms and you need a partner and a technology solution to really execute and do well. Joe: Okay. And you started out with YouTube, so at that time there were not a lot of experts in the field of buying advertising, buying that advertising space on YouTube. Patrick: That's right. Joe: You know when I … when Jason sold my business back in 2010 I was spending a boatload of money on Google AdWords and I learned it from the ground up. I did it myself starting in 2005 and I … at one point I never had any training so I can't imagine how much money I wasted over the years. I mean it was a point where I topped out at spending $45,000 a month. I mean Jason loves to tell the story of how I got mad at American Express because I went above my average so I cut my advertising in half and it's the stupidest thing I've ever done. But I did it because I got mad. It is a ton of money; I blew a ton of money by not being the expert. But you guys learned that expertise in terms of buying ad space on YouTube and then you expanded to the other social media platforms. So are you now doing paid ads on Google AdWords, on Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, things of that nature? Patrick: Absolutely DBM, Amazon, all the ones- Joe: What would DBM mean? You got me right there. Patrick: Sorry … Doubleclick Bid Manager is Google's DSP solution to get the rest of the web that's not … that you can't do in AdWords. Joe: And what's DSP stand for? Patrick: Digital Supply-side Platform, so that's how Google goes and buys display advertising on say the [inaudible 00:16:36.9] within New York Times. Joe: Okay. Patrick: Yeah. So it's another Google product. It's part of their Google Suite and actually it's interesting that you bring that up that's … that they had a tagging solution there that … and we find this a lot in companies that are running small businesses on just AdWords that you can get really good multi variant testing on that platform rebuilt technology to allow you to expand that. I don't know how extensive you got with your test. But one campaign maybe you have 40 different variables, maybe you're really good and you get up to a hundred. We'll do like 6,000 with their technology. Joe: Wow. Patrick: So yeah we're testing age, demo, interest, topic, keywords- Joe: Let's get really down to it. People that are listening, their ears might be perking up and this is why we're talking because you don't get to be number 17 on the Forbes fastest growing companies by screwing up. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Because you wouldn't have the clients that would be referring and helping you grow your business further. Patrick: That's right. Joe: So my initial thought as I said on our first call was more often than not I do valuations and exe-planning for people and see that they were doing fine on their own advertising. Managing it themselves and then outsourced it and it totally blew it up as in bang and their cost for acquisition went up. And usually, in my experience, it's not a great thing. Your success in having people use your services changes my mind. So let's talk about specifically we've got folks that are … was their physical product owners and of course there's content as well but I think you said you don't really do a whole lot of content stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong but let's say we've got physical product owners that are mostly because of the crazy growth on Amazon doing Amazon sponsored ads our advice is always go well beyond Amazon grow your business so it's not one revenue channel. Your value is going to be higher but they are challenged with how to do that. So do you do an analysis on a business and you're looking at Facebook advertising for that physical products, do you take over the Amazon, sponsored ads, do you do Instagram all of these things? Patrick: Yes, all of them. And you know what before we start with any business we start with an audit to get to a genuine conversation. You'd say okay here in the platforms you're on tell us about your objectives, lets pull your data into a dashboard that you'll own and take possession of. And more so you … where we see some quick wins and easy gaps and then we'll go take you know what if you like what we're saying we'll go run a test for free to see if we can improve what you're doing. Joe: How much is the cost of the audit that you do? Patrick: It doesn't cost anything. Joe: Okay the audit is free and the test is free. Patrick: The audit is free, the test is free. That's right and we just rolled out this … the reason I'm talking to you and I'm just talking to Jason about this is you know we just rolled out this Strike Marketing Partnership. You know we have a very large e-commerce company under our belt right now and we are able to take that business and improve their cost per lead from $80 to $16 and it really grow their business. They were able to- Joe: Were they profitable at $80? Patrick: Yes. Yeah, they were. Joe: Okay. Patrick: Dramatically improved their numbers and now they're on a path to being a billion dollar company. Joe: And so you took it from $80 cost per lead … was it cost for lead or cost for acquisition or both? I guess it doesn't matter but you took it from 80 to 16 and then where they able to use the same budget or I mean- Patrick: They were able to increase it. Yeah you see that's the key and I think the one point I want to make Joe is that we are entrepreneurs here and we're in the advertising marketing space and like one of the guys that's on our staff started panatea until he started the March Air Movement and sold it to a very large Japanese company because he doesn't need to work. But he's passionate about entrepreneurs, entrepreneurship and he's an expert in building that brand. And when you said content you know content is critical in … when you start talking about AdWords and multi variant testing you can't apply that same learning over to Facebook. It's a completely different platform. Everything is grouped together. You have to be a little bit patient and let Facebook find that first customer for you. And then it starts to learn who your customer is and it's started in and it's off to the races. But if you're open at that platform and if you're doing it the same way you're doing it on AdWords whether it's YouTube or just AdWords so you're not going to perform there, you're just … you're not doing it right. Joe: Okay. Patrick: So- Joe: What are in that Amazon Seller account? Do you guys handle the sponsor ads as well? Patrick: That's right yeah and we have a seat on Amazon so we have a partnership with them. Seat means that we get a seat. Joe: You know I was going to ask that. Patrick: Yeah sorry. I can see it on your face, what's a seat? Joe: Okay. Patrick: And seat that means that we're in their partner program and we can log into their technology and buy inventory at stale. Joe: Sure. Patrick: So … yeah and that means we also have a rep, and that's the other thing to is that these platforms change all the time. And one of the recent ones was GDPR it's made a … GDPR oh. Joe: Come on now GDPR what's that? This is going to be the acronym show. What is it? Patrick: Yeah the acronym … I'm sorry, I spend a lot of time in advertising so you know neither all … there are all things … GDPR is a … it's a European Union situation where the user is in control of their own data. Joe: Okay. Patrick: And the platforms, you have to basically ask permission or I think you've probably seen on sites you go to now. They're saying a. so do you like content, you need to accept my cookie. And if you're in someone's database right now and you have a European client in your database you needed to e-mail them and say hey by the way I need you to okay the fact that you're in my database. Initially, don't do that, I mean don't be that; you can get fined significantly. Joe: Most of our … the people in the audience, the people that are listening I shouldn't say most I mean it's anywhere from somebody doing a hundred thousand a year in revenue to you know 40 to 50 million in revenue. So it's all over the map there a little bit. Let's give some stuff away for free here that I don't want this to be obviously you do the evaluation and you do the test for free. And then let me just answer that; let's answer the quick question because people are going to say well what happens after that? Do you get paid on a commission basis part of the advertising how does it … part of the advertise you spent? Patrick: Yeah I think that's why we fall in that advertising agent bucket because we get a percentage of the media. Joe: I did the same back in my Media Mind days when I used to buy time on radio; percentage of what you're spending. Patrick: There you go. Joe: And about the job you do on that cost for acquisition the more you're able to spend because the budget goes up. So it is the right- Patrick: Portion. Joe: Way to do it. Yeah. All right so let's talk about that aside do you have any sort of hot tips? What can someone do just on their own looking at their own advertising budget in whatever platform you want to talk about? Patrick: Sure. Joe: Give away some tips or what can somebody do that's using … let's start with Google AdWords. What's the biggest mistake people make and how can they fix it? Patrick: Yeah I think that one of the biggest mistakes, I mean you can kind of take this across all platforms is trying to figure out the audience and the actual attribution and then finding the adjacent audience. So I'll give you an example, and our artificial intelligence does this. The idea is that you need to expand your audience. So you find an audience that gives you a high lifetime value and you recognize that in keywords or interest in Google AdWords. For example, you might be targeting 18 to 54 year olds in AdWords. You need to break each one of those segments up and realize that 18 to 24 year olds aren't interested in the same thing as a 45 and through 54 right? So if you're trying … if you're targeting people who are interested in the NFL, the 18 year olds that also have that same interest are interested in the UFC. And so you have to find those adjacent audiences to lower your cost of acquisition. Does that make sense? Joe: Yeah. Patrick: You expand the reach of the audience size and that's something that our technology does and our big people are doing that. Joe: Okay so it's finding out their like audiences. I always hear something on the Facebook algorithm in the paid advertising part of that similar audience or look alike audience, is that what we're talking about? Patrick: Kind of, on Facebook it's different. So AdWords is a multi-variant test platform. You're basically setting up … hopefully, you're setting up somewhere between 10 and 150 different campaigns. We're going to set up about 1,000 to 6,000. Joe: I think I had five or six and I had multiple things underneath there. So you're talking about 1,000 to 6,000 campaigns? Patrick: What was what was your target audience age range? Joe: From the women 25, 54 but I honestly can't recall if I even know. No, not much. I don't want to talk about that because I lost a whole lot of money the more we talk about it. Patrick: Oh my gosh. Joe: Wasted money. But you're doing a thousand campaigns inside of Google Ad Words? Patrick: You can [inaudible 00:17:10.1]. That's the only way, get out to get that. No, no, no, that's my product. That's the only way to get down to how am I going to expand this audience? What does this audience …. what is this audience also interested in? So it … what you basically said, what you told the platform was I want women 18 to 54 is that what you said, 18 to 54? Joe: 25, 54 but- Patrick: 25 and 54 and you basically said they all have the same interest and they don't. Joe: No they don't. Patrick: And they're not even on the same device. So you've got to break it out by device; tablet, mobile, desktop. And you've got to break it out by each age group. You've got to break it out by each interest. And you got to break it out by each keyword. Because if you don't get that data in there you're science is [inaudible 00:28:04.6] value is. Joe: Okay so someone doing this on their own in an Excel spreadsheet doing … think they're doing fairly well odds are that they could be doing a whole lot better. Patrick: Basically. Joe: Right. Another … okay so the tip there was I keep, I want to call it look alike audiences but it's not. Patrick: Just call it multi-variant testing. In AdWords, you've got to multi-variant test, and you've got to get as granular as possible to get the learnings out of that, out of that platform. Joe: Multi-variant testing, okay. Patrick: Yes. Joe: Second so the tip, the next thing you'll sit down and tell somebody to look at? Patrick: So on Facebook, it's completely different. You can't, you have to bucket everyone together and then as soon as Facebook finds you that acquisition and that's you know obviously Facebook and Instagram then it starts to learn okay now I know who you're looking for and it starts to find all the people that look alike. That's where the look alike part comes in. Facebook's AdWord is working in the background to figure that out. When we first set out it might be looking at your return and saying oh my gosh I'm doing way better on AdWords. You have to stick with it. And one of the things that we see as well is that you have a longer sign up or click to buy solution in your platform. What you'll see is people will start that buy on Facebook and they'll get to your form and realize that they don't have enough time for this and they need to go sign up on the desktop. And they'll go to Google search, look up your brand and you have to be able to do that. And that's where that DCM code comes in to play; from double click. Joe: Okay. Patrick: It actually digi up and see the assist on Facebook to AdWords, give the credit to Facebook that was the person who … that's where they saw the ad. They'll just go in to the desktop to finish filling it out Joe: Okay. Patrick: That makes sense? Joe: I did evaluation maybe three weeks ago for someone that back in the first quarter they reduced tremendous volume in their business by Facebook advertising. And then the algorithm update hit in I think April, you know by May. And they went from let's say a half a million a month in revenue to 40,000 a month in revenue. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Incredibly painful. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: They then jumped to Google AdWords and made adjustments on Facebook. But that type of algorithm update how do you and how does your agency … [inaudible 00:30:34.3] agency, how does your service address that, fix that, take care of that, and make sure that your clients are not going to be suffering from that major algorithm update that Facebook seems to be doing on a regular basis? Patrick: Yeah, it's a good point Joe I mean we're all sort of at the mercy of the changes that happen. That update may have been Facebook's response to Cambridge Analytics which was kind of like on the back end of that GDPR stuff I was talking about. So they have made changes and all these platforms change all the time. What we had is like when I was talking about Amazon with the seat, we're in Facebook's Ad Manager; we have a Facebook rep so we … those changes come to us before. Hey look here's how you're going to have to set these campaigns up in the future to be successful. Be prepared for this, this is going to be our algorithmic change and they'll never tell you what's in the science behind it. But you bring up a valid point about Facebook; it is a very content rich platform. You have to be testing instead of multi variant testing, different light items of campaigns. What you're really doing there is your multi-variant testing creative. So you have to look at an audience and you have to understand is the audience tired of my ad? They're seeing the same ad over and over again. Are they tired of that ad or is the audience exhausted with my product? They don't want it anymore and I have to go somewhere else. But typically what we're doing in Facebook is a lot of creatives popping. So well create a slot, 15 different pieces of creative image a week period [inaudible 00:32:19.0]. Joe: So with AdWords the campaigns you could have a thousand plus potentially. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Maybe at least 6,000 with Facebook it's more about the creative and fifteen different creatives over a two week period. Patrick: Yeah that's right. Joe: And then you'll continue to test that and swap it out to just continually monitoring the click rate and conversion rate. Patrick: That's right. Joe: What about video on Facebook is that something you're doing and recommend? Patrick: Yeah you know [inaudible 00:32:46.1] there are working really well, there's video component in there. But yeah we're seeing great conversion off of short video. And you know you … on that creative side you have to have high quality images and the videos don't have to be very long; two, three … three to six seconds perfectly in there. Joe: I think the quality I think the audience gets because that's the number one thing in terms of their own website and the Amazon seller accounts is top quality photos that should be the first thing. All right so we talked about Google AdWords, we talked about Facebook, any other thoughts in terms of you sitting down with somebody having a drink and what they should look at if they're running an e-commerce paid advertising campaign? Patrick: Yeah I mean actually on the paid advertising side I … you just have to keep exploring the platform's interest, is that really good … if you know how to use that platform it's becoming a very good conversion platform. And it's interesting when you start to see these new platforms come out typically because they're new there's not a lot of complex decision there so if you can … it's kind of a land grab. It's kind of like what Facebook did to Google. Facebook was a new platform, they finally got their Ads Manager to work properly and Power Editor is what they call it. And people have done really really well. Same thing is happening with Pinterest now. They've got their advertising technology and algorithm is starting to do really well in the backend of collecting data and saying oh this person who bought this is also buying this and they look alike kind of thing. Pinterest is becoming a CPA platform. Joe: Okay, so AdWords, Facebook, Pinterest … and when we say AdWords when we say that we are talking about Google content searches plus I assume were talking about YouTube looped in there as well. Patrick: Yeah YouTube is very tough in terms of direct conversing. What you have to do on YouTube is you use YouTube as a mid-funnel driver to your branded keyboard search. So I know that that sounds challenging but your creating an awareness campaign but you're looking at how that's driving cheap CPA in AdWords because it's your brand and that costs less than say some generic term that like clubs or something like that; whatever you're selling. Joe: Okay. So when you work with a client do you work on … obviously, you've got a budget that you work on, goal setting with either cost per lead or cost per acquisition things of that nature. People … my point is that I know that when I was in the audience is just listening thinking about hiring someone that I was worried that they're going to blow up my budget on it. Patrick: Oh yeah. Joe: Do you work with them on all those goals as well? Patrick: Oh absolutely and everybody is logged in. We're typically buying on your account so nothing's getting taken out of there. And again like everything starts with that audit. But back to your point about I think what entrepreneurs do is they need that margin or store ad to be really high to afford the inventory. And what we go about with Dave and some of the other entrepreneurs here is we want to help you with that. So we'll [inaudible 00:36:19.8] with you so that you can take a little bit more risk on the advertising side. And we talked about this a little bit before the show and it's what I talked to Jason about- Joe: Yeah let me just jump in and get to the point so people understand. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Part of the biggest problem that a bootstrapped physical products company has is amazing growth and lack of capital to buy more inventory; they're growing at 100% month over month, year over year. And they're taking all of that working capital and putting it right back in inventory and just trying to keep up. And what I do or anybody at Quiet Light does evaluation for that business we talk about planning. One of the simplest things to be more profitable is just don't run out of inventory. But it's kind of hard because they run out of money and can't keep up with that growth. So what you're talking about is as an agency, as a firm, as a partner- Patrick: As a partner. Joe: You're willing to work with them and lend them money to buy that inventory. Patrick: That's right. When we went from $80 to $16 CPL, we broke our partner's logistics. That … I can sum up what you're talking about in just amazing growth; we have the same problem. So you don't have enough capital, no bank is going to give you a decent loan, your business is too young in the first three years and so we recognize that. We're able to look at your advertising and we'll tell you what we can do on the execution side. But we have to make sure that you have the logistics down in the inventory to go take those risks. And we want to take those risks with you. So overall it's to grow your business as big as you possibly can. So that's the goal. That's how we make money. Joe: It's [inaudible 00:38:11.9] it's not all that different from Quiet Light, we're here to help. We have that … sometimes that stigma of oh you're a broker and that was the hardest thing for me going from entrepreneur owning my own business to entrepreneur that's a broker advisor is that those entrepreneurs they say you know I never want to sell my business. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want you to talk me into something. But we are here to help and help you grow your business and build that relationship so that when you plan to sell you'll exit and you'll exit well. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And what you're doing is the same thing is you're helping more than anything else. Of course, you're a business trying to make a living too and obviously doing it very well. But you're going to do the audit for free, you're going to do the test for free. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: And then you're going to dramatically reduce that cost for acquisition or cost for lead whatever the case might be in what the parameters are that you set with the client. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And they're going to have a problem which is dramatic growth and they're not going to be able to keep up with the inventory. They probably already can't keep up with the inventory purchasing and you're going to be there to help fund the inventory purchases and keep this growing which allows you to spend more money on their behalf and a great cost really a great cost for acquisition and make more money for yourself along the way as well. Patrick: Yeah. When we started our company we did it on American Express and Google AdWords buy in YouTube. It [inaudible 00:39:37.5] credit card every $700, so you know I feel your pain that you were feeling and we get it and it's real. Growth is tough to manage; very tough to manage. So for me, I like to consider myself sort of a scaling expert whether that embodies locations and sales. I'm good at that. I mean there are people here that will just do that … building a brand from scratch and selling it for hundreds of millions of dollars. Joe: That's amazing that you get that kind of talent that is choosing to work with you. It's kind of a great working environment for these folks. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Ok look I never have to work again for the rest of my life but you're making it fun and we're changing people's lives so let's go ahead. Patrick: Yeah and think about Joe, I meant it's exciting. I mean you're in this business because you get to meet really interesting other entrepreneurs. And they all bring something interesting to the table. When they take a nap on we've all been in that battle together and this is a new sort of idea like why are you doing this so- Joe: It's great. Patrick: Yeah it's got to be a part where we're really excited about it and happy to bring it to the market. Joe: Yeah listen, I want to end it here simply because people should be reaching out to you. It's a very least they're going to learn something in the review process. They're going to learn at the very least what they're screwing up on, what they're doing wrong, and what they can do. Choose to do it themselves or- Patrick: Anything works, that's right. Joe: Have you test it and prove that you can do it better than they can. And then they can free themselves up for other things as well like additional product development and clean documentation on their financials. So I say that in every podcast episode hire a good [inaudible 00:41:23.0]. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And one priest, they've heard me preach before. Patrick listen thanks for being on the show. Thanks for taking time out of your day I know you're very busy. We'll go ahead and get this produced get it out to folks and share it with you as well so you can share it with your team. Patrick: Joe thanks for having me. Joe: It's great man, thank you. We'll talk to you soon. Patrick: All right man, take care. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast for more resources from this episode head over to quietlightbrokerage.com. If you're enjoying the show please leave a rating and review on iTunes. This helps share the messages from the show with more business owners like you.   Links: Free review and test: hello@strikesocial.com Inc. 500 Ranking Strike Social

Kat: Alright. We cannot begin yet. Okay, one second. Hmm, approve. Kat: I feel like I'm brand new to the internet when I do these sorts of things. Patrick: Hey! Kat: I feel like such a magician. Patrick: We can begin. Kat: To me it's like a greater accomplishment to successfully do a split screen broadcast then it is to launch some massive new programme. Patrick: It's pretty badass. Kat: Yeah, I was very scared about how that would work. I felt technologically challenged. Patrick: I'm trying to get used to it. But I ... Kat: Is somebody seriously sending angry faces? Patrick: Yeah. Probably Brandon. Kat: Brandon's angry that he's not on the live stream. Patrick: Yup. Sorry Brandon, not today. Not today. Kat: Not today. I've got to say that my lighting looks better than your lighting. Patrick: Not right now. I put in my room so I can get way better lighting. Actually I'm gonna do you even ... Kat: You're view is way better. Patrick: I'm gonna do even dirtier than this. Kat: Dirtier? We're going dirty already? Patrick: Real dirty style. There we go. Okay. Actually I'll get in that bed. Kat: Is that an accent? Whose got an accent? I don't have an accent, obviously. Everybody knows that. Patrick: No way. Kat: My accent is ... Patrick: It's purely for shits and gigs. Kat: One day, maybe when you've known me for a hundred years, you'll figure out that I'm not British. Patrick: British, Australian, it's the same thing. I'm sorry to let you know it. Kat: Oh, it's so not. Patrick: Alright, so I'm all set up now. So my lighting is good. Let's see where you told me about the ... To turn the lighting on. I can't really do it. That's one thing that's missing here, is that little button you showed me to brighten it up. You know, to brighten the ... Kat: You look bright. Patrick: Yeah, let me see if I can switch that on. Kat: You look like you've got a tanning line [inaudible 00:02:26] on your face. Patrick: That's good. 'Cause I definitely do not. But let me get some more. Put that down. Boom. Kat: Alright. Now we're gonna go into it. Patrick: I don't know how you want to start this off, but I'm ready. I am in the zone. Kat: Firstly I think we need to set the tone, and let people know that this will only be serious and professional content. No laughing emojis are allowed. Patrick: Hey let me share this. I wonder if I can share this with my group? Let's see if that works on this thing. Kat: Yup. Patrick: Okay, share to group. Awesome. Players club, there we go. Kat: Hey. Patrick: Boom, it's done. Kat: I just said no laughing emojis you guys. Don't send laughing emojis automatically when I say "no laughing emojis". That wasn't funny at all. It was completely non-funny. We've actually had a serious discussion about this live stream before. We went live, it's actually taken all day, neither of us have accomplished anything. Except discussing the fact that this live stream will be only serious and professional business. Patrick: Straight professional. Only professional business. Strictly business. Kat: Purely professional. Strictly business. People wanted me to introduce you again. How did every ... how did ... You gotta go ... Sorry can't do intros again. We did intros last week. You're gonna have to go to his profile, follow his profile. You'll very quickly figure it out. You'll either be deeply drawn in, or potentially shocked and appalled and you'll leave. Patrick: Gonna be horri ... Kat: Much the same as when people [inaudible 00:03:55] my profile. Patrick: You'll be horrified. Yeah I'm on a camp chair, Meg. Meg just asked me if I'm on a camp chair. This is a camp chair in my house. Kat: Yes. Patrick: That's a quick ... But that's a good segue right there. Why am I on this camp chair? I'll tell you why. You know, I'm just recently starting new, you can go check out my stuff. You see all the stuff that has been going wrong since I actually finished my offer, and put my offer out there. Right? Patrick: So, I had quit my job to go start doing all this crazy cool shit that Cat told me about. Convinced me to go be myself and just say whatever the fuck is on my mind. Just have ... Kat: I didn't convince anybody of anything. Patrick: You convinced me. She convinced me to do it, so I just quit my job. If this fails, I'm blaming it all on you Cat. I'm blaming it all on you. And uh ... Yes you. Kat: I did nothing. I just lead my damn life and then people do whatever they want in response to it. Patrick: What I heard was "Quit your job, Patrick, quit your job." So over and over again I'm hearing this, and I left. And so ... Kat: Question. Patrick: What's that? Kat: Can we block Ryan's [inaudible 00:05:07] from being on this live stream? Patrick: Yeah he's [inaudible 00:05:09]. Very, very mad. But I think he knows that you had some kind of part in this whole thing. So, of course. Patrick: But anyways, so I just jumped off cold turkey. Needless to say, I still had a shit tonne of bills, 'cause I live a pretty expensive lifestyle. And so, yeah I just said "Fuck it". I just had a couple of skills. Patrick: Now I do have a few skills. I do build marketing automation systems. I do build for people like Cat, coaches. You know I can take your shit and boost that shit up. You know what I mean? Get you some automation going, make you some money. But, that's a skill that I'm not really trying to use. Why? Because somebody else is trying to do this shit for myself. Patrick: the first time in my life, I'm making my own bed, I'm doing my own thing. I'm doing it for myself. What's on my mind is going to come out. Putting it out there, and just to bring this all back home. The fucking deal is, ever since I started doing this, every fucking thing I can possibly think of, that could possibly go wrong, is going wrong. Patrick: As a matter of fact I'm on a cell phone right now. Because my laptop screen, my mac screen burnt the fuck out. TV burnt out. I can't even, the list goes on and on. It's just. Kat: What? The TV burnt out now? Patrick: The TV burnt out, the laptop screen burnt out. First the laptop screen burnt out. On my mac that I bought, like probably two years ago, all of sudden that shit burnt out. On the day that I dropped my offer, mind. On the day that I finally, finally stayed up all night, and crafted this thing out and wrote it all up. Kat: Tried to go to bed halfway through. Patrick: Tried to go to bed halfway through. Not being able to. And staying up and finishing it. Then waking up early in the morning and even more finishing it. And then even halfway through the day, till one o'clock today, finally finishing it. Off of a MacBook, which had a burnt out screen. That I hooked up to a big ass TV, in the living room. Kat: Which looked amazing. Patrick: It looked pretty good. Yeah it looked amazing. I was gonna do what you told me. Which was present my offer. Instead of just writing it out, I was gonna present my offer on TV. It was gonna be all crazy, badass, a great idea. I thought it would have been fucking wonderful. Had it worked. Patrick: So, you know, TV burnt out. Brand new TV mind you. Don't buy Zenio. The MacBook burnt out, and now won't connect to that TV. I took it in here to the other TV. It won't connect to that one either. And every possible thing to prevent me from doing this, has been happening. Patrick: So now, I have a little phone, and a camp chair. Because I'm not gonna sit in there, I'm gonna sit right here and actually have something go right. I'm having a good backdrop, right? Patrick: I have a good backdrop, and just ... I don't know. This is going pretty well I think. Kat: It's going exactly as it's meant to. Are you reading the comments? Patrick: I am kind of, yeah. I was just talking. I get ADD so I can't really, I'm gonna have to go back. Kat: Well, everybody's like "Your whole life is blowing up". I think Katie said, this is pretty much ... You know this, this happens. I hear this every single time somebody actually full backs themselves. Kat: Yeah exactly what Kristin said. It's an "are you sure" from the Universe. Patrick: Yeah, it's double check on it right? I don't fucking know. I don't know, but it's crazy. It's like a poltergeist, or something is ... Kat: It actually means ... Do you know what it means? It means, like all that shit happens. The more that shit like that happens, the answer is you just gotta be like "bring it the fuck on then, I'm ready". And let it go faster. And then it's a level up after that. It's the breakdown, before the breakthrough. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: Like for sure, if shit starts blowing up it's means that I'm about to go to a super high next level. And I've seen it a million times with my clients, and friends. Patrick: It's gotta be right there. You know, that's the one thing too. I'm totally, so all in with it and every single day I get even more all in on it. And just finishing that up, and just putting it out there and seeing all shit happen. It just makes me want to go even more all in, you know? So I'm like, let's just keep seeing how far this goes. And maybe, maybe you know, six months down the road I'm gonna be fucking living in a shoe box somewhere. Maybe. Patrick: But then I still have faith, and I still know that there's going to be that sales that gonna come in there. Eventually. It's gonna come. Kat: I think it's about, like everything that you would lean on outside of yourself gets striped away, and you learn how to fully lean on yourself. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: Yeah, "Arrow is drawn back before being shot forward" says Stephen. Patrick: He's in my ... Kat: Exactly. Patrick: He's in my entrepreneur players club. What's up Stephen? I dropped the link back there. Kat: Yeah, you gotta put that link for the club in here. Patrick: I gotta be marketing myself now. You know what I mean? I gotta be doing this. Kat: It's exactly how it goes for everyone. It's like, it's the test. And it's the "are you sure", and it's when you start laughing at it and be like "okay, I see what's happening here. Surrender." Then it all just starts to wash over you. Kat: But it makes you stronger anyway. Like, you're already getting stronger through it everyday. Patrick: It's tough. Some crazy stuff happened today too, though. Like just goes beyond that. Just to let me kind of know I'm going on the right path. Like, you know Travis Plum, he's on here right now. He's all in. He says "all in". Kat: [inaudible 00:10:49] Patrick: Yeah T Plum was over here today, and he is just all in. We have another sales guy that's gonna be coming on. He's doing his thing, and he just kind of popped up. So it just kind of feels like there's support now, on that. It's cool to see there's some other shit going on. It doesn't totally feel like I'm out here by myself, even though shit's still fucking up. Patrick: Shit's still fucking up for them. They're in the same boat, but now there's us. We're pouring the water out of the boat. And we're motivating each other. And it's kind of difficult when you're just by yourself doing it, but you kind of get those thoughts. You know what I mean? Patrick: The thoughts ... I don't know if you know what I mean, but you get the thoughts that ... You probably haven't had these thoughts in a long time. Kat: I don't know. Yeah, well I still remember though. It doesn't seem like that long ago for me really, since I was in that place. It's not actually that many years ago. Kat: But you know what I think is really cool? Basically nobody would talk about it, like you're talking about it right now, while they're going through it. Everybody waits till afterwards. Like even I fully talk about it as transparently as what you're talking about it right now. Kat: Nobody does that. Everybody waits till later on, and they can tell story. Or they might tell a little bit of it. [inaudible 00:12:17] your just like, "There it all is." Patrick: Hey I thought about that too, but I'm like, you know what if I'm going down through it, if I'm going to go through it, I'm like, might as well fucking do it. Just do it. Patrick: I was thinking though, and this is something I want to talk about. 'Cause I had wrote like a pretty long post earlier today, to go in company with my thing. You know. And it's like talking about how, you know I'm just gonna fucking do it. And I'm just gonna drop the parachute out and just fucking, just go and do it. Patrick: Not only that, I'm gonna show you guys ... I'm gonna let you all in to see it, and you know. I promise you that I'll take everybody through this whole thing and you'll be there, and everything like that. And there's all sorts of different options that could happen for me. Patrick: In the next month, or two months that if I don't put up, if things don't happen then there's very low levels that I can go to. But I'm totally comfortable with that. I've been there before. Kat: Right. Patrick: Be fun if ... I didn't think about that, you're right. But I have seen a couple of people do this before though. I saw one sell his, I saw one guy with line sell all of his shit and just start from scratch, you know. But I don't know how far he made it. I haven't seen him or heard from him in a long time. Patrick: You have the Demio webinar kids that created their own webinar software, and they did the same thing, and haven't heard from them in a while. So typically it hasn't worked out well for people that have, maybe like ... I guess what I'm saying I'm doing here is like how to just ... And I have been talking about it and walking it through the process of being honest about it, and saying that shit's getting fucked up. Patrick: I just gave Ryan back my car. You know what I'm saying? Like he had, when I worked for him, I'd had a fucking badass Maserati and everything like that. He'd let me use like a company car or whatever and I'd pay him the note on it and everything like that. It was nice and made me feel good. But I just went and gave it back to him. You know, so no car. Patrick: So, but I don't really need too much, where I really need a car anyway. I got my mind on, you know, bally at in about two months when my lease is up here. So you know, shit's going down. It is what it is. Fuck though. Kat: It's the all in thing. Patrick: Yeah, what's more important to me is the end treasure that's there. That I know is there, and that is there. I mean honestly, I'd rather have some different shit anyways. Kat: Exactly. It's just exactly like that meme you made with the plane flying off the cliff. Like, most people wouldn't be willing to go through it. Kat: Like the crazy thing, I used to wonder what is the worst thing that could possibly happen if I would run out of money, and if things didn't turn around, and it got down to where I had like, eight, nine cents in the bank. Then I would always end up making a few dollars to just, kind of keep my head above water. But sometimes I couldn't buy food, or anything like that. And it was always like, just can you get through that one day? And sometimes it was like, I think I'm gonna be done after this day. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: But I remember, I thought "Okay but what's the absolute worse case outcome?" And for me, it was move back in with my mom and dad. And I'm like, alright well that's not actually like the worst fucking thing in the world. I'm sure I'll start acting like a bratty teenager after like three days, 'cause that's what happens when I stay with my parents. But it's not gonna kill me. Kat: So then, it was kind of like acknowledging that I'm not gonna ... Like you're subconscious mind, or your nervous system is screaming at you that you're gonna die. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: And so that's why most entrepreneurs flake out. Because they can't handle the emotional pressure, and they can't handle the nervous system pressure. Having this nervous system response that says you're about to get eaten by a lion and a tiger. Like that's a hormonal response. Kat: When really, it's like if I totally hit rock bottom it would mean living with my mom. And then I would just get pissed about that and then I would go sell some shit. And either way, I'm gonna make it. Right? Patrick: Yeah. Kat: So then kind of go, oh why am I letting that shit get to me then? Like, can I get through today? Yes. Do I believe that I'm ultimately gonna make it? Yes. So, keep fucking going. But most people? Kat: That's why we say one percent within the one percent. Like I know for a fact, like only 0.001 percent would put themselves through what I went through emotionally. Patrick: Yeah. Kat: Or what you're going through now. Patrick: True. Yeah, and then you get stuff and you get so attached to the stuff that you're, that people get scared. And they're so secure, and they get scared to let it go. You know, and in order to get back to the big picture or to get to that next level. Patrick: But I think about the same thing you think too. I've been thinking of like options too. What's the worst that could happen to me? I'd have to go back down, 'cause I'm from the trailer park. So I have to go back down, and live with my dad. Patrick: You know, I'd have to go live with my dad. Which I also think, what's something that I would do as a very high level, once I make it? Once I'm living this fucking life of my dreams. You know what I'm saying? Once I'm like able to go and do anything, and live anywhere, and travel the world like I want to. Which is exactly what I'm gonna do no matter what, in three months when my lease is up. Patrick: I'm really just here because my lease, I have to stay here till this lease is out. You know, then I'm gonna get. Who knows, my lease might be fucked up. Sorry Travis, but he's on the lease with me. Patrick: But me and him are kind of like going hard together. He's on the same journey. And he's just pretty much like "fuck it". He's got into this as well. Riding on him doing well as well. So it's all good, it's not like I'm totally alone on this thing. It's always good to have a friend, but I think like "What's the worst thing that could happen?" Patrick: Right? And then it's just something like, if I went down to my dad's and had to stay down there for like a month. This is something that I would most likely, my higher version of myself. My higher level self who's achieved this, this is something that he would probably do. Anyways. Patrick: Maybe I'm having a good time overseas, and stuff like that. And I'm kinda like, missing the states a little bit, I'm want to just come back and chill with him for like a month. You know? Just post up and just see him for a month. It's probably just something I would do. Patrick: You know? Kat: Yeah right. Patrick: It's just something you would fucking do. Kat: I mean all the fear, reactions, and emotions it's all based on real shit. Like when money's not coming in, that's a true and real thing. But if you put that aside and you come back to what you know is true inside of you, like you fucking know who you are and that you're going wherever you want to go. And anything that you've ever decided to do in your life and you actually meant it, you have already achieved. Kat: And even like, what I said on that video today. Like you've literally helped people make millions of dollars? Patrick: Yup. Kat: And it's just continually putting aside your own ... Like for those who don't know, 'cause you might see this if you go to Patrick's sales page anyway, but it was Patrick's, not idea, but he helped me get out my idea. And actually express it properly, to launch my inner circle. Kat: And my inner circle clients know this. But that's like my highest level thing. I actually said in that video, that it makes hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then when I awoke I was like, hold on. It's on track for a million dollars per year, from one stream of income. Kat: And that was something I'd been trying to bring to fruition, actually since 2013. And I've had a few iterations of it, which just weren't right. And then I got gun shy because I felt like, I just don't fully know how to ... Like I know the vision of what I want, but I couldn't actually get it out of me. And we were sitting on the couch one time and I just was like "Man this is ... I kind of want this, but I don't know." Kat: And he's like typing away doing his thing, and he's like "Oh well you should just ..." I don't know, I wish I could remember what he said. But, blah blah blah blah blah, something something something. And I just remember sitting there going, "How the ... What? Yes, that's exactly it." Kat: It was like you read my thought. Like that's ... You've got the skills is what I'm saying. Right? Like you've helped make or build a business that makes five million dollars a year. These are, like I'm not just sitting here trying to talk you up. Kat: But it's more like, when you feel like "Well what if the worst happened?" Or "What if this or that?" It's like, wait. Look how much I'm already helping people and can help people. It's a done fucking deal. And you'll go through whatever you've got to go through. If you go through some short term period, alright you get rid of all your stuff and it's just you and the camp chair left, you'll probably be happier anyway. Kat: You'll have the freedom you want to move around the world. And like, it doesn't matter. None of it fucking matters. Whatever's going on right now. Like a year from now, you're gonna look back and be like "It was all worth it". Patrick: Yeah. Kat: And it'll be so worth it, because then you can help the people you were meant to help, because you can actually understand it. Like I can understand all that my clients are going through, 'cause I actually went through it. And I was prepared to go through it. Same thing. Patrick: I'm trying to like, enjoy it right now. That's my big goal. You know? Kat: Right. Patrick: I want to enjoy it right now. I want to savour this, and hold onto the moment. And hold onto these moments that I'm here, and learn as much as I can while I'm in these moments. You know? Patrick: Learn as possibly, as much as I possibly can. Experience and feel, and remember as much as I possibly can from these moments. 'Cause once I cross over the line, and it breaks open for me and you know people start buying my stuff then, you know. My big thing is like, how am I gonna feel after that happens? Patrick: You know, I'm gonna feel great. I'm gonna feel great, but I'm also gonna be transforming, I'm gonna also have transformed into something else. You know, and it's gonna be just ... I don't know. I don't know how I'm gonna deal with that. Patrick: That's one of my deep thoughts right there for you, if you will. So. Kat: I don't think you change. I don't know, like I don't think I've changed. Like my surroundings have changed. I don't think I'm any different to who I was years ago. I think you remember. Kat: But also because you are actually talking about it openly now you'll just be able to watch your own video advice. Patrick: Say again? Kat: Because you're actually talking about it while you're going through it, you're documenting it. So you're not gonna forget because you're gonna have the videos. Kat: But I don't think you forget. I don't forget any of that stuff. I can remember all the feelings and the emotions of it. And sometimes I think maybe I take having money for granted, or like the kind of [inaudible 00:23:00]. Kat: Like that I never look at prices anymore. Sometimes maybe I take it for granted, but not really. Because I do still, very frequently have moments where I'm like "holy shit", like is this even real? Like how is this possible, it's really only been, you know, a small handful of years since it seems like an impossible dream. But then I always .. Patrick: You've been doing this fucking shit for like 20 years. Kat: 20 years, how old do you think I am? Patrick: No, I'm saying like you been doing this since you were like 10. Since you were like one year old. Kat: One year old? Actually it was three. But, thank you. Patrick: There you go. Yeah. Rounding up. Kat: But I was making money, but I was not holding onto the money. I was in debt, and you know. I was bottoming out. I sold my house that I owned. And that like, make like 30 grand profit on that, and that just disappeared. And then I sold my Audi, which was like my first nice car, an Audi '04. And I loved that car so much, and that money disappeared. And then I sold my little Chinese share portfolio, that I had from my 20s when I was trying to get serious about wealth, and then that money disappeared. Kat: And then I was even trying to sell shit on Ebay, but back then I didn't have like Channel purses to sell on Ebay. I had things that I was selling for five dollars. But it was really like, every little dollar counted. And then I would go and buy groceries, and I'd get like 30 dollars worth of groceries and I would go through the checkout. And I would never just like, check my bank account because I couldn't handle the fear. Kat: So I'd just go through the checkout, and basically pray that the card would go through. And sometimes it would, and sometimes it wouldn't. And you just keep going one day at a time, but even though you'd feel like "what if it never works, and what if I'm crazy?" And what if, all the stuff that you think, that everyone thinks. Kat: But then when you put all that emotion aside, you go back into your core and you go "but I do fucking know though." Patrick: Right. Kat: Like when I get out of the drama, I know. Like I just fucking know. It's not up for discussion. I will keep picking myself back up again, until I get there. And then ... Kat: Now I'm so fucking grateful for all that. And I do remember so much of it. I'm so fucking grateful that it's over. But I'm so fucking grateful I went through it. Because it made me so strong. Like I feel like, I have such high levels of resilience and tenacity and those are some of the most important characteristics for us. For entrepreneurs. Patrick: Absolutely. And you know I think ... Kat: It is what you said. Like embracing it now. Patrick: Well, you know, the think is too, is that I say all this stuff to you and then you just make me think too, that like I've already been here before. And I already overcame. And I'm already pretty much hacked this stuff, you know. Just by being able ... Just like I remember the first time that I actually sold something. Because whenever I first started working with Ryan, it was like he found me. Patrick: 'Cause I quit my job at the car dealership right? Went through a bad breakup, and it just made me realise, fucking life isn't for me to be putting all my happiness ... It isn't meant for me putting all my happiness into somebody else. That's kind of what kick started, and had me first say "fuck it all". You know? Patrick: And so I quit my job at the car dealership. I just walked in and it ... This was such a big moment in my life. That I didn't even like, have the questioning or anything like that about that. There was nothing that would've made me stay there. You know? Kat: Yeah. Patrick: This is like such a earth shattering thing to happen to me. I guess I was like, I guess I must been about 26 or 27. And it was just, I had put all my chips into this thing, you know? And thought I was getting engaged and this stuff, and like that you know? And then it came crashing down. Patrick: And I found out she was married to some dude in prison. Long story short. But it was, I just put so much stock into this thing you know? And then it just fucking like, came crashing down. And that was when I first saw the reality, kind of like shift. You know? Patrick: And I saw this for what it is. And once I started like picking back up the pieces of everything, I just realised like, it's not supposed to be like this. You know? It's not supposed to be, to where I give other things power and control of me. Patrick: For example, job, security, things like that. And I really just, really, really saw that. Like about a week or two afterwards, you know, after we had called everything off, and everything like that. And I just remember it clear as day. I was just like, immediately started selling all my shit off. And started to trim up. And I started to figure out ways to get out of there. Patrick: I mean I was not gonna stay there very long, but I eventually, it just... fuck it ...

[Introduction] Welcome to the LD State of Mind, a podcast about learning together and making a difference for college students. Join us as we discuss tips and useful information with our peers and experts in the area of learning variability’s. [Patrick] Good morning and welcome to this episode of LD State of Mind. Our guest speaker today is Mrs. James, of the East Carolina University STEPP Program. Over the next few episodes we will be exploring a topic no one likes, but everyone needs help on, test taking. And the tips and tricks you might have been missing out on. In today’s episode we will be discussing multiple-choice tests. What to look for, and how to prepare yourself to do the best you can. So Morgan, if you could give a little bit of background/personal information of why you are our guest today. [Morgan] Sure, first, thanks for having me. I am the instructional specialist for the STEPP Program at East Carolina University and I work with students that have learning differences in either reading, writing, or math. I teach them learning strategies and academic routines to help them be successful in their college classes. [Patrick] Awesome, and I know from experience she is amazing at it. She was my teacher for two year and has helped me so much today in all my test taking skills. So, Morgan, today we’re talking about multiple-choice test and the good and bad about them. Do you think you could give us a little reflection back from when you were taking multiple-choice tests? What you liked and didn’t really like about the topic? [Morgan] Sure, well I’m still a grad student or I’m a grad student again since I’m working on my doctorate. So, I’m still taking tests. There’s a lot of anxiety, I think, going into a test. And I think it’s actually totally normal for myself, and actually any student to have test anxiety. But I even in the past, thinking back to undergrad. I remember I was always thinking in my mind, “Take your time, don’t rush”. As I was going through the test I would say that in my head. I never cared if I was the last one to finish a test. You know I guess I didn’t really have that competitive… [Patrick] Yea, I understand that… [Morgan] That competitive spirit maybe died with me when I was in there taking the test. And I know that some students do care about things like that. I tried to use positive self talk to amp my self up for the test, before hand. Ultimately when I’m actively taking the test, I go with my gut. I try to advice students to do that, too. And I know that doesn’t sound real scientific, but I learned early on that your first instinct is usually the right one. [Patrick] So, should I not go back and read over the test again? [Morgan] Well, of course you should go back and read over the test. But only change your answer if you are absolutely sure. You know, that you’ve either seen the answer somewhere else on the test or you’re absolutely sure that you got it wrong. [Patrick] Or you’re getting a gut feeling that it’s wrong, so you’ve got to change it. [Morgan] (Laughter) Sure, I guess, yea. [Patrick] Awesome. So, in multiple-choice testing by the sound of it, you’re not writing any essays. You have in front of you, the answers and the question; what are some advantages to this type of testing, compared to the other forms? [Morgan] Sure, well you kind of mentioned one. You have all the answers in front of you; you just have to pick the right one, ultimately. But, multiple-choice tests give you an opportunity to guess and/or eliminate answer choices that you know are wrong. Which gives you more of a chance to pick the right answer. Also, sometimes you’re able to sift through the test and find similar questions and answers somewhere else on the test. Whether it’s been rephrased or restated somewhere and in doing that you can narrow down your choices again to see you know if the questions been repeated somewhere to, you know, help you answer the questions.

Patrick Guest is an Australian children's author, Olympic physiotherapist, and father of three. He is most noted for his children's books That's What Wings Are For - dedicated to children with Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, and their parents, and The Ricker Racker Club, written for his boys when their baby sister joined the family. Find out more about Patrick's work at PatrickGuest.com.au. What you'll learn: 1. What Patrick's first career was, and why he gave it up for writing.2. The true story that inspired Patrick to write That's What Wings Are For.3. How The Ricker Racker Club is being used to touch and inspire school children in Melbourne, Australia. 4. What success means to him. FULL TRANSCRIPT Elizabeth: Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects authors, songwriters and poets with a global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-calibre guests, I invite you to go to iTunes, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. I’m delighted to introduce children’s author Patrick Guest (PG) – father of three, Olympic physiotherapist, children’s author. Patrick Guest – born into an ever loving, ever growing family, 7 siblings, in the beachside suburb of Seaford, Melbourne, Australia. Patrick was blessed with all the things that make a childhood magical – plenty of family, friends and freedom to explore this wonderful world. An assortment of careers along the way – cobbler, elephant washer, failed accountant, anatomy demonstrator at Monash Uni, national team physio for Mozambique. Little wonder he’s been dubbed the Forrest Gump of Frankston. Adventures and stories seem to follow him around and now he’s writing them down. 5 books, (signed with a little hair) in the past 2 years, many more in the pipeline. Patrick Guest, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Patrick: Great to be here, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Great to have you here, Patrick, on this lovely sunny day in Melbourne, believe it or not, we’ve got the sun. Patrick, we recently discovered we attended the same secondary college.  Patrick: We did. Elizabeth: I had to smile when I read you initially became an accountant. Please tell my listeners about that transgression - and how you escaped. Patrick: Ah, the transgression. Let’s start with that. Look. Fear, insecurity, there was a recession kicking in. But really I think, as a 17-year-old, having to work out what subjects to choose, I didn’t know how to make that decision at 17. Elizabeth: So you did Economics … is that right? Patrick: Economics, Accounting, Legal Studies, Maths. I was really probably inspired at that time by my favourite TV show, Family Ties – Michael J. Fox. Elizabeth: Wasn’t he great? He’s great. Still. Patrick: At the time, I think back now – what a dork he was – it probably says a lot about what a dork I was and still am. I thought he was cool. Elizabeth: He was funny, and you’re funny. Patrick: He was cool, and I thought “Who do I want to be like?”, and I thought “Michael J. Fox”. I went down the corporate path, which was a terrible decision. I don’t regret it – I made some friends for life, and I realized early on that money doesn’t make you happy. Elizabeth: It’s such an important lesson at that age, isn’t it, cause many people learn that quite late, if at all. Patrick: Yeah, so that’s something that has stayed with me, and I’m really grateful. Elizabeth: Was there a pivotal moment when you realized “This accounting thing is just not me”? Was there an incident? Patrick: There was. Elizabeth: Can you share that, or is that private? Patrick: No, no, let’s share this. It’s all about sharing in this session. So I’m walking down Flinders St Station, and I’m walking down in my suit and tie, down the ramp… Elizabeth: How old were you at the time? Patrick: It would have been in my first year out of graduation, maybe 22 or something. 21, 22. Walking down the ramp, with cattle class, just walking down, we were all off to work. Against the flow, this lady came through the crowd and just gently put her hand on me and said, “Smile!” Elizabeth: (Laughter) I promise you it wasn’t me. Patrick: She just said “Smile” and I’m walking down – I must have looked so miserable. Elizabeth: Was she an angel or a real person? Patrick: I don’t know. But I hear where you’re coming from there, because from that moment – and I blame Banjo Patterson – and maybe my dad for putting me onto Banjo. Elizabeth: Why? It’s good to blame other people, isn’t it? Patrick: My favourite Australian poem would be The Great Clancy of the Great Overflow… Elizabeth: Oh wonderful. Patrick: …And where Banjo writes: And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt me   As they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste, With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy,    For townsfolk have no time to grow, they have no time to waste.   So that poem was just ringing in my ears as I was off to the office sitting there, and from that moment I had come to the end of my fancy – I had a lot to change with Clancy. But I doubt he’d suit the office, Clancy of the Overflow. And for someone who had had that instilled in him, the spirit of adventure at a very young age, and parents – wonderful parents that had fostered that– and here I am in this shoebox, little partitioned office thing, and it just wasn’t for me. Elizabeth: Soul-destroying. Patrick: Soul-destroying. For some people it isn’t, and some of my best friends have continued along that path, and it’s a great path for them, but for me it wasn’t. Elizabeth: We need everybody, don’t we, the array of professions and tradespeople, everybody to do their bit. But you had much more important things in store, Patrick. Which brings me to – our school was really quite traditional in lots of ways, being a Catholic coed college, with all the gender bias that goes with that. And I remember going back to Economics, and I remember being one of the few girls in Chemistry and Economics, because it was always the boys who were going to be the accountants, and the girls were going to be teachers or nurses. And in fact I did go on to be a nurse, but I was very happy to do that. So to me in our school, there was a real gender bias. And you address this in your fantastic book, The Ricker Racker Club. Can you tell us more about this great book please? Patrick: The Ricker Racker Club is based on a real club, invented by real people: my two boys, Noah and Reuben. So Noah and Reuben were roughly 4 and 3 at the time when the Ricker Racker Club was formed. And there was one hard and fast rule: No Girls. (Laughter) There were a few other rules: do something incredibly brave, do something incredibly kind, but the real rock-solid rule was No Girls. And then what happened… Elizabeth: I’m sure that’s changed now. Patrick: …They had themselves a sister, little Gracie. Gracie was born, and really the story of The Ricker Racker Club is what happened next after Gracie. Now Gracie is perfectly named. She is pure grace, she is pure joy. She does have an intellectual disability, and her capacity for joy is extraordinary. And she would – as happens in the book – walk up to the wolf next door and give the wolf a big hug. Her courage, her kindness, her unique joy, won the boys over very quickly. They won us all over, and the story sprung from there. Really, it’s a celebration of the joys of being a kid, and the innocence of these rules. They’re not coming from a nasty place, these rules – just boys being boys. But then, just the power of kindness, if there’s one thing that runs through all my books, it’s the power of kindness… Elizabeth: Yes, definitely. Patrick: …to change hearts. So that’s how that happened. And really The Ricker Racker Club is about a father saying to his two sons, “Be good to your sister.” Elizabeth: And you do it so well, Patrick. Patrick: And so it’s done really well. Elizabeth: When did you know you wanted to be a writer? Patrick: From the moment I could write. So I started very young. I do remember a series, ‘Powerful Patrick’. And I must have been about 5 or 6. I was doing the pictures back then and I was stapling them together, making these little books. And I’m sure Mum and Dad delighted in them. But I’m not sure anyone else did. Elizabeth: Have you still got them? Patrick: I haven’t been able to find them. Elizabeth: Oh no. Patrick: I hope I can find them one day. Mum was always a little bit of a hoarder, so it’ll be somewhere in the house. They’re still in the same place I grew up in, so they’ll be somewhere in that house. So I’ve been a natural storyteller my whole life. The vehicle for that telling a story was just verbal stories and emails and love letters to Lisa my wife … I’ve always found a way to put things on paper. But certainly through the barren accounting years, then really trying to work out where my lane was that had been lying dormant, and then the birth of Noah – my first son, Noah – came a flood of stories and the desire to get these things down on paper. The rest is history. Elizabeth: What was it particularly about that event - the birth of Noah – that opened the floodgates, so to speak? Patrick: Well the birth itself…even before the birth I was starting to work on a book. But it’s, I think it’s just this natural, just as we have a desire to breathe, have food and water, a desire to be heard and understood, and then as a parent, it’s just this innate desire to share stories and to bond through stories. Elizabeth: Legacy. Patrick: Legacy. What my dad did was the same with me. My grandfather – I vividly remember my grandfather declaring over me that “You’re going to be an author one day.” Elizabeth: Oh wow. Did he write? Patrick: My grandfather, no. It was more my grandmother – she was a gifted storyteller. She kissed the Blarney Stone a few times, Ma, and... So it’s flowed through, that Blarney Stone – the kissing of the Blarney Stone gift has been passed through, through Grandmother to my dad. Elizabeth: We have a similar heritage then. Patrick There you go. And I can see it in my kids as well. Noah and Reuben, they love telling stories and they love hearing stories. So it’s been passed on for sure. Elizabeth: That’s fantastic. Can you advise all the aspiring writers out there how to get started, and more importantly, how to keep going? Patrick: How to get started… I can only speak, maybe quote Oscar Wilde: “Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.” So I can only speak from the authority of my own experience. I don’t have a technique or a tactic or a ritual that I go through. I pray. I pray, and one thing that I’ll say to people when asked this question – again I don’t want to get too preachy here – but if you want to get creative, it helps to get in touch with your Creator. That’s all I can say. That might be a bit controversial but for some ears, but that’s what works for me. I don’t get on my knees and say “God, give me another book!” Elizabeth: “Give me a bestseller or a …” Patrick: “Give me a bestseller!” What I actually do is I surrender my agenda. Elizabeth: So ego is left aside. Patrick: Ego is left aside, and any preconceived ideas are left aside. So I’m not sitting there going “Give me inspiration”. I’m giving myself out, and saying “Take away”. Elizabeth: Use me, as a conduit. Patrick: “Use me”, and if that’s to be the best barista in Mornington, or go back to my cobbling beginnings, or elephant-washing beginnings, so be it. So most of – no, really all of – my flashes of inspiration you could say… There’s that great poem by Rumi, Listening, where he says, “When that voice speaks, may I sell my tongue and buy a thousand ears.” So when I’m hearing that voice, that is always followed by a period of prayerfulness or meditation which just opens up that creativity. Sounds easy. I know when I hear that voice, and I sell my tongue, I know that there’s a double emotion. Joy, and dread. Because I know that I’m in for some hard work. Elizabeth: ‘Cause writing can be hard work, can’t it. And the discipline that’s required – and you know you may not particularly feel like writing that day – but you have to put one foot in front of the other and keep going. Patrick: Yes, so back to the question, which was “How do we keep going?” How do we start? For me, I don’t really start until I’ve heard the voice, I’ve heard that voice, I’ve heard that spark of inspiration. How do I keep going? I know that I won’t have peace until it’s done. So I’m listening to that voice but I also know that it’s a collaboration after that. So I’m seeking opportunities to get it on paper or get it onto the computer. And they are taken in the busyness of my life with 3 young kids and a fulltime job as a physio. I have to be creative just to find that time. So often it’s my wonderful patients – patient patients – lying on the physio plinth – and I’ll just seek an opportunity to say, “Now that you’ve got all those needles all over you, there’s no way to run out of here. Would you mind listening to my latest? What do you think of it?” Elizabeth: Do they come back for another appointment after that, Patrick? Patrick: Normally they do. I don’t think I’ve managed to scare anyone off yet. Elizabeth: I might need to book for a session. Do I have to have a needle? Patrick: Not always, but it does – has that influence on my clinical judgment. Might be, if I’m honest. But I call it ‘bibliotherapy’. That works well, so I’m looking for opportunity. Sometimes I’ll pull the car over and send myself a text message for a sentence. Or middle of the night, off to the computer, or scribbling in bed on a bit of paper. I don’t have a routine about how to get these things down. Elizabeth: 2 a.m. is a common time for me to receive a sentence too. Patrick: In the shower can be a good place – you can scratch it into the wall, into the mist, write it down, whatever it is. But I’m in the posture of seeking the opportunity to find that time to write that down once I’ve heard that voice. Elizabeth: Can we talk about your work – who you work with, the wonderful men and women that you care for? Can we talk about that? Patrick: Yes, so 2 days a week, I work at the medical centre at Victoria Barracks, which is a service based in Melbourne. They are wonderful, so when I first started working for the military, I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder about war and the work of the military. Elizabeth: In what way? Patrick: I’d been a bit of a hippie, a bit of a peace lover, a bit biased against the war machine, or whether it’s a valuable service that the Army and Navy and Air Force offer. And then you get to meet these people and hear their stories. Elizabeth: Amazing. Patrick: Amazing, the sacrifice made. I see the plague of PTSD is becoming more public or known as an extension of the epidemic of general mental health problems in the world. As a physio you get a front row seat really, and you get the rare – it’s a real privilege to offer probably two of the greatest needs of the human being: to be heard and understood, and to be touched. Elizabeth: Yes. Beautiful. Patrick: To be touched. There aren’t many mainstream medical professionals that offer both. So as a physio you’re in a really good place and space to offer that service and in that way to gather stories. So in that way it does feed into the other half of my career, which is becoming more than half really, the writing side of things, and the gathering of stories from the confessional plinth is part of that, and the sharing of stories is part of that. Elizabeth: They’re exceptionally lucky to have you. Patrick: Goes both ways. Elizabeth: You’ve had wonderful success with your book sales. What does success mean to you? Patrick: About three bucks fifty? (Laughter) So I remember when my amazing editor and publisher Margrete Lamond sat me down – we met face to face for the first time – she’s based in New South Wales – one of her first pieces of advice was “Don’t give up your day job!” Elizabeth: I’ve had the same advice before. Patrick: So in terms of success it’s been humbling and mind-blowing to think that That’s What Wings Are For – my first book – has cracked the magical 10,000 books sold in Australia within 6 months. Elizabeth: Wow. Congratulations. That’s wonderful. Patrick: So now we’re into our second year of sales. I’m not sure where we’re up to now, but has been picked up internationally and translated internationally to Chinese and Korean and several other languages. What does it mean to me? It means that – it gives me a voice, a chance to talk to your lovely self, and to visit schools. I love that side of being a writer. Most writers are more comfortable in a darkened room tapping away. To my surprise, I was a very reluctant public speaker but I absolutely love going out to the schools. On Wednesday, I had a full school assembly, hundreds of kids there, and the audience and ability to speak and share… Elizabeth: ‘Cause you make that fun, don’t you. We’re just going back to The Ricker Racker Club for a moment, and can we know how you make that fun for the kids? ‘Cause the parents listening there would be really interested – we know we’re there to do hard work but school can be fun as well. So how do you make it fun for them, Patrick? Patrick: Well, The Ricker Racker Club – I invite everyone to join this very exclusive club, The Ricker Racker Club, IF they pass the test. So I read the story, but along the way we pause and issue challenges to the members of the audience to come up on behalf of the whole school, see if they can pass this test. So we follow the story. And one of the characters is Max, and in the first week he sticks his head into the fox’s hole. So I make up a little fox’s hole, and find a willing kid to stick his head into this fox’s hole. The whole school are counting 20 seconds and I bring out this little stuffed fox. So the poor kid doesn’t know I’m tiptoeing up behind him and “Raaaahhh!” Elizabeth: (Laughter) Do you get a lot of screams? Patrick: We get a few of those, and then the villain of the book is this wolf next door, which is based on a great German Shepherd that lived next door to me, and I have the scar to prove, the moment the basketball flew over the fence. I rescued the basketball – and Chance (the dog’s name was Chance) – got me. And so the wolf next door – it would normally have a wolf suit – and it’s normally the PE teacher who dresses up as a wolf. Elizabeth: Would you go to our school? They’d love you. Patrick: I’d love to. Elizabeth: Ours is a service school, so you’ll like it. Ours is a service school, so we have a lot of service families that go to... Nice connection for you. Patrick: I’d love to come out. Absolutely. So the kids build up and up and at the end, “Who wants to join this club?” “Yeah!” “Who wants to learn the secret password?” “Yeah!” So I force it down a little and say, “Unfortunately you haven’t done quite enough yet.” Elizabeth: (Laughter) Oh my, the kids will go “Oh what?” Patrick: So it’s a case of “Do not put up your hand, do not raise your hand, unless you are extremely brave.” All the hands go up. “I mean it, I’m warning you now – extremely brave.” Elizabeth: What age group are we looking at, with the hands going up? Patrick: Prep, all the way to 6. Elizabeth: The whole school, wow. Patrick: At this point, some of the Grade 6s I can tell – folded their arms; it’s a bit babyish for them. So picture it: I do target them a bit at this point. So I’ll normally look for the guy who’s lost interest – the kid can be too cool for school here. And I’ll grab this fellow and bring him up. “So on behalf of the school, let’s talk about Courage. Courage comes in many forms. You’ve already demonstrated Courage by standing up in front of the whole school. But Courage comes in many forms. The courage to make a mistake when you know it’s going to get you in trouble. You’re scared of something. And then there’s taste buds. So we go back to Week 3, if you were listening, what did Zack do in Week 3?” And he’ll say “I’m sorry, I can’t remember.” Again in a loud voice, “What did Zack do in Week 3?” And you get the book out again: Zack drank a tomato sauce milkshake. At this point I’m standing behind him with milk, and then I bring out the tomato sauce. And what’s he do now? At this point he’s shaking his head ‘no’. And the school have already started the chant without encouragement: “Drink! Drink! Drink! Drink!” So I make this milkshake, this foaming tomato sauce milkshake… Elizabeth: Oh no. Patrick: And I pause again and say “Unfortunately my friend, Zack did that for one person. You’re doing it for 700 people right now. That’s not enough. So I look around – I shop for the largest Brussel sprout I can find. And I bring out this Brussel sprout, drop it into the tomato sauce milkshake, and present it to this fellow. Elizabeth: Poor kid. Patrick: The poor kid. Originally, I used this – it occurred to me that this is peer group pressure of the highest order. So I now use this as an opportunity for this poor unfortunate kid to – they’re saying no at this point – I really esteem that courage. I say “Look, you have done something extraordinarily brave. Everyone here at some point is going to face a baying crowd of people saying ‘Drink! Drink!’ or whatever. Elizabeth: That’s so clever, Patrick. Patrick: And to say no in the face of that, is true Courage. So I give him a round of applause and he sits down. “Now who wants to be a legend?” (Laughter) So someone else comes up. Or I’ll turn it into the “What would the kind person do now?” Or even better. “Maybe there’s a teacher in the audience…” Elizabeth: So what I’ll do is I’ll leave it there, because if the school listens to that one they won’t book you. I will leave them in suspense. When I first read That’s What Wings Are For, I was sitting in a coffee shop, with tears rolling down my cheeks. The other patrons respectfully averted their eyes. And you know you’ve found a great book when so much emotion is ... Can you please tell us about your inspiration for That’s What Wings Are For? Patrick: So That’s What Wings Are For … Maybe I can mention one of my favourite poems of all time, which is The Hound of Heaven. The Hound of Heaven, for those who don’t know, written more than a hundred years ago by a homeless opium addict in London, Francis Thompson. So he was asking the big question: how could a loving God allow such suffering in the world, and particularly in his own life? And the penny starts to drop about halfway through. He says maybe, just maybe, You allow us in Your love to burn and burn until we become charcoal, and You pick us up and You create Your masterpiece. So That’s What Wings Are For – I’m not calling it a masterpiece – it certainly came from a burning charcoal in process. And that process was the great sadness in my life. My son Noah has Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, which is a devastating condition that involves the wasting of muscles. And the heart’s a muscle, and it’s a devastating disease. So in light of that I was asked to write a book about a certain blue dragon Bluey, who is the mascot for all the families affected by this devastating disease. So I was working on another book at the time, and I was asked to write this book. And I jumped at the chance, but I also knew there was a heavy responsibility writing that. So really you can look globally at that and look at the whole community impacted by that, but really it was a love letter from a father to a son. Elizabeth: Beautiful. Patrick: And that’s how it was written, and that is something I do say when I go out to the schools. You’ve heard Ricker Racker – it’s quite a boisterous, joyous occasion. When I go out to talk about That’s What Wings Are For, I basically start off in a fun way, and then I bring it back sharply and I say, I bring out Bluey, the actual mascot, a blue plush teddy, and I say “I actually met Bluey on the worst day of my life.” And to have a school go from being quite boisterous, and the teachers go “Shh! Shh! Shh!” to your pin drop in one sentence… Elizabeth: Wow, that’s powerful. Patrick: They get it. They get it. From the preppies all the way up to the Grade 6s, they get it, and there’s a real reverence suddenly about the book and why it was written. And then I explain what’s happened from there and we go from there. I still struggle to read it without crying, but they are tears of – what will I say - I heard this line yesterday – “what we sow with tears, we reap with shouts of joy”. And there’s something joyous – it’s bigger than me, this thing. It’s bigger than me. Elizabeth: What you’ve created is magnificent. Patrick: Thank you. Elizabeth: You’re welcome. You mentioned in an interview that 80% of That’s What Wings Are For was written over breakfast with your family, and then one sentence that brought tears to your eyes took you 3 months to write. Can you please share that sentence with my listeners and what it was that finally led you to discover the sentence that made you cry? Patrick: What it was was my incredible ego. I just – it went to my head. The idea of being a published author and all this went absolutely to my head. Elizabeth: Well you are only human after all. (Laughter) Patrick: Well, I’m sitting back there, I’m imagining red carpets, imagining walking up the stairs. It was shocking! And here I am, I’ve written a book for my sick kid, and my ego’s having a field day. At this point I hadn’t even had the manuscript finished… Elizabeth: You were strutting around… Patrick: It was appalling. I’m embarrassed about it, at the way I was carrying on in my head anyway. So we needed – Bluey needed a reason to be doing what he did ultimately, which is find a reason for his wings. And I was trying all these sentences about sending him off to Margrete, and very gently and respectfully she would be saying “That is rubbish.” (Laughter) Elizabeth: Thanks Margrete. She just knew there was more to you – she knows how deep you are. Patrick: She knew how to push the buttons and what’s right. And equally my wife Lisa as well. And more so my wife Lisa, she has a great ability to tell me when I’m writing something that’s rubbish - and good as well. Elizabeth: Good. Patrick: So the to-ing and fro-ing went on for months. And then I had this moment of “You complete goose! What are you doing?” And certainly at that moment I decided that every cent from this book would be given to charity, which it always should have been anyway, and I made that decision, and entered some prayer and reflection, and within really minutes of making that decision – within minutes – I was given this sentence. And I have to set the context of that time. And at the time we had a crudely termed … we called it a ‘year of adventure’ – you could call it a bucket list, and we were doing all sorts of things around the world. So the sentence – Bluey was coming back from the Royal Children’s Hospital. It was broadened to be a magical building filled with magical creatures with all sorts of ailments. So at that moment when Bluey looks out, and when I’m reading the story to the school, I’ll have people close their eyes and put their hands on their hearts, and feel. Elizabeth: Which I’m going to do now. Patrick: And if you keep feeling, you’ll feel something. You may not feel it straightaway, but if you keep trying, you’ll get there. You’ll feel something warm and fuzzy. And that feeling has a name; it has lots of names. Kindness, and hope, and love, and what happens – and at this moment, Bluey looks across, and I share this sentence: “Bluey saw the boy’s soft, floppy legs, and at that moment, something happened in Bluey’s heart. He stopped for that moment thinking so much about his own situation, and he looked inward. He looked out, and saw this boy sharing a similar path. That word ‘empathy’. That changed everything for Bluey; it helped him work out what his wings were for.” So we go on from there. Elizabeth: Beautiful. That compassion for another person. The author-illustrator relationship is such a pivotal one. Can you describe what is important to you in such a relationship? Patrick: Respect, and trust, and space. So ‘let there be space in your togetherness’. Certainly for the first two books – the first one, Daniella Germain, extraordinary talent. And then the same with Nathanial Eckstrom, rising superstar of the illustration world. So first book, I had no contact at all with Daniella until after all the illustrations were done. Had no input into the illustrations at all. So in terms of relationship, it’s one of trust. Slightly different with the second book – some feedback. Poor Nathanial, I saw his amazing illustrations, but – and it was amazing that he managed to draw my 3 kids without having seen a photo of them, quite accurately – except for Gracie wears glasses. And I just politely asked whether he might pop glasses on Poppy (Gracie is named Poppy in the book). So he went back and put glasses on. Then I had a look at that and thought, “No. Makes her look too old now. Can you take the glasses off?” So that was a bit of a diva moment for me, I suppose. But other than that it really is letting go and not being too precious and trusting in the selection of the illustrator – that’s up to the publisher – and I trust Margrete to make that decision, and she hasn’t failed me yet. I know how she is with me with the words, and she’s that way again with the illustrator. Elizabeth: What a wonderful person to find! Patrick: She is great, she’s fantastic. Elizabeth: What are you working on at the moment? Patrick: Well, the undercurrent to all the picture books that have been picked up in the last couple of years has been a novel for children called The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle, and I’ve been working on the story for more than 10 years. And it comes and goes, and then another idea overrides that. But I keep coming back to The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle. That is lying dormant again, but I know I will go back to that, so there’s always that in the background. That story is the story of an old man who loves to tell stories. And he has this great secret. Great secret, that he's burning with this secret, to share it with his grandson Arthur. Long story short, he gets invited to the World Storytelling Competition in Marrakesh, Morocco, up against the greats of storytelling. Professor Chinwag from China, Lord Blabbermouth from England. I won’t give too much away, but he makes it to the final and he tells this great secret, but the secret is revealed slowly as the story goes along. Elizabeth: Suspense right through… Patrick: Right through. It has been a lot of hard work, also joy, and I have a sense that one day it will happen. I’ve also recently finished another picture book manuscript that is very, very dear to my heart, called Tiny Dancer. Elizabeth: The Elton John song. Patrick: The Elton John song, so hopefully Sir Elton will approve, and that’s really dear to my heart, and I’m in an acquisitions meeting on that one. And we’re in the process of illustrating and that process does involve some word changes. My next release which will be next year, I thought that was going to be a book called The Second Sky. It sounds like – based on this week’s emails – it sounds like it will be called Rabby the Brave. Elizabeth: You’re just prolific – you’re pounding on aren’t you, one after the other. Patrick: Look, it’s been a blessed couple of years. There’s been a very rich vein of inspiration and creativity that’s happening at the moment. Really grateful. Elizabeth: We’re very, very pleased too, I must say. Can’t wait to read them. What do you like to do in your spare time to unwind from all this work you’re doing – the physio work with the military, your family, and all this wonderful writing you’re doing? What do you do to unwind? Patrick: I’m clinging to my childhood in terms of chasing a bouncy ball around. I still play basketball. There’s a competition going on in Victoria Barracks actually, so at the ripe old age of 45, I’m taking on the burly soldiers, I’m taking on the burly soldiers in this basketball competition. Elizabeth: Well you have to keep up on being brave. (Laughter) Patrick: I love it. I must say I’m shamelessly, every goal I score – there aren’t many of them – I’m celebrating them like they could be my last. So there’s the fist pump and the whooping after every goal I score. And would you believe I’m still sort of – don’t let Lisa know but I’m still playing football. Full contact. There’s a wonderful competition – Reclink, midweek, battlers’ competition. You may have heard of the Choir of Hard Knocks – Reclink was spawned from it and there’s a football league for battlers, whether it be homeless refugees or people battling addiction. So we’ve set up a team in Frankston, and I’ve been the … Elizabeth: You are brave. (Laughter) Patrick: Madness, absolute madness. And so I’ve been the physio, the chaplain, the halfback flank and the water boy, whatever goes on, whatever’s needed for that team. And there’s just something primal about playing Australian Rules football that I just can’t let go of. And if I ever get the chance, I’ll go out surfing as well. Elizabeth: Isn’t it great to tap into that raw energy and just let yourself go? Patrick: It is. With surfing, it’s one of the few pastimes or sports where you spend 95% of the time staring at the horizon. So you get a chance to unwind – then it goes from the serenity to scrambling for your life. It’s great. Elizabeth: It’s a bit of a metaphor, isn’t it? Patrick: It’s great. Yes, so those are the 3 main things. Elizabeth: Do you want to remain in the children’s book genre? Patrick: Absolutely. Maybe one day a book for grownups, but certainly at the moment I’m loving – when you write a picture book, you are writing for grownups – you’re writing for two generations. Elizabeth: It’s that connection, I think, with parent-child. It’s so special. And you both learn so much when you’re reading together. Patrick: Absolutely. And I’ve been trying to make the transition from picture books into early readers, and I’ve found that quite hard. I might have to leapfrog that and go into older early readers. Because to go from a picture book to an early reader is – you got to dumb it down. You really have to dumb it down. That’s a crude way of saying it, but you do. There are certain concepts you have to avoid, and using poetry or metaphors is a bit more tricky. So maybe that’s not for me, that niche. So certainly The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle is for an older reader, an older young reader. And then the picture books as well. I might stick to those, to genres within the broader children’s book genre for now. We’ll see what happens after. Elizabeth: You’re so insightful. Because you haven’t actually studied Creative Writing or completed a formal uni degree in writing, and yet your knowledge is so vast. Is you’re your intuition at play again, do you think? Patrick: Not sure. I think it’s a blessing. Don’t want to use the word ‘gift’, but I think it’s nothing to be proud of if it’s a gift. Elizabeth: I really have to disagree, because so many people are given, receive gifts, it’s then what you do with that gift. And so many people do not do anything with what they’ve been blessed with. I do think you can claim that proudly and whoop, like on a footy field. (Laughter) Patrick: Maybe. I do love whooping when there’s a sense of victory, a sense of accomplishment – once you finish that manuscript, submit to send, and you know it’s off, and have such a beautiful relationship with Margrete. I should mention Alyson O’Brien, who is also with Little Hare – I’m increasingly involved with her. I know that they will read it and give it the full attention and get back to me quite quickly, so that agonizing wait has been reduced to, in some cases, a few hours now, which is great. Elizabeth: It’s cause you’re so clever, and they know it. Do you have a website or blog, Patrick, that my listeners can go to find out more about your wonderful work? Patrick: Yes, there’s a shiny new website, “Patrick Guest dot com dot au”. I know nothing about the technical side of websites, and a great friend of mine, Jeffrey County, has helped set that up, and it’s sparkling. Elizabeth: Aren’t tech people great? I’m not one of those. Patrick: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. There’s no way I could do that. So that’s up and running now, so there’s opportunity to email me and contact me through that. Happy to do that. Elizabeth: Patrick, this is a signature question that I ask all my guests. What do you wish for, for the world, and most importantly, for yourself? Patrick: That’s a big one. Look, the first thing that springs to mind is a cure for Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy. Elizabeth: I’m with you. Patrick: That would be the first thing. But if I thought more about it, more broadly… Maybe I could go back to Ernie Pigwinkle, The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle. So I’ll give away a little bit, so we get to the end of the story. We’re at the World Storytelling Championships, so Ernie, this old man from Ballarat, has made the final and won, thanks to his grandson. So the secret starts off as “Do you know why dogs wag their tails?” We move on from there to “Why dogs and cats fight – the origins of war”. Then he finishes with a little song, a little poem he says to the world: It’s a war that’s continued to this very day. It’s a shame that Dog and Cat couldn’t think of a way To listen and learn and be understood, And love one another as all of us could. You don’t have to carry on like a dog or a cat. You’re not a baboon or as blind as a bat. There’s a heart in your chest and a brain in your head. So before you lose faith, hold on instead. Hold on to your faith in the goodness of others. Never give up on your sisters and brothers. You’ll see for yourself, as sure as the sun, That there’s something worth loving in everyone. He says that. Elizabeth: I need a box of tissues. [Laughter] Oh Patrick, my goodness, that’s so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Patrick: That’s the world premiere of The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle and… Elizabeth: What a coup on Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Wow, Patrick! Superb. Patrick Guest, thank you so much for joining me on “Writers Tete-a-Tete with Elizabeth Harris”. We look forward to more of your stunning work. I totally agree with you: hugging is what wings are for. Thanks for tuning in everyone, and may your wishes come true. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Im Jahre 2015 begab es sich, dass zwei Mac User die Keyboard Maestro, LaunchBar und manch andere App sehr schätzen einen Podcast aufzeichneten indem sie ihre Lieblingsautomationen besprochen haben. Lieber Fluggast, wenn dir das Gehörte gefällt oder dir Sorgenfalten auf die edle Stirn fabriziert, dann haben wir etwas für dich: iTunes Bewertungen. Die heutige Episode von Der Übercast wird unterstützt von: Marked 2 - für den Mac zeigt euch eine Vorschau von eurem Markdown Dokument während ihr schreibt in eurem Texteditor. Markeds weite Bandbreite an Hilfsmitteln für Schreiber, Exportoptionen und Navigationsfunktionen macht es zum perfekten Begleiter für jeden Autor, Blogger oder Coder. Nutzt den Coupon Code DERUBERCAST um 30% Rabatt auf die Direktversion zu bekommen. Überbleibsel Urlaub & Seniorensport Frisch aus dem Wanderurlaub ist bei Patrick alles paletti, nur der Schrittzähler steht angesichts der ungewohnten Beanspruchung noch leicht unter Schock. Damit Arbeits-Urlauber Sven das erst gar nicht passiert, hält er sich fit mit etwas Seniorensport Hip-Hop… eine wirklich außergewöhnliche Demonstration seiner menschlichen Energie und Kraft hat er der Redaktion noch für die Show Notes zugesandt. Das MacBook Apples 12″ MacBook wurde im Berliner Apple Store von Patrick für 40 Minuten tippend getestet. Sein Resümee ist, dass die Tastatur ihm wirklich nicht zusagt. Wäre dort die normale Tastatur drinnen, so wäre der kleine Mac wirklich ein toller Computer. So ist er nur solala. Feedback von Dauernutzern willkommen. Mail Act-On Gewinnspiel Zwei bis drei Mal gibt es von Indev Software ein Bundle bei uns zu gewinnen. Wer MailTags, Mail Act-On und Mail Perspectives gewinnen möchte der vollführt diesen Klick ↓ »Lieber @derubercast. Ich würde euch persönlich umarmen, wenn ich @indev’s MailTags, Mail Act-On und Mail Perspectives gewinnen würde.« Überschallneuigkeiten Grim Fandango Remastered Der 1998 von LucasArts veröffentliche Adventure Klassiker Grim Fandango ist nun auch auf allen -Plattformen spielbar. Das ganze Spaßgebilde ist zudem noch “remastered”, ob ihr das nun gut oder schlecht findet… es ist immer wieder schön Adventures zu sehen und zu supporten, da so viele von uns damit aufgewachsen sind. Deshalb habt ihr hier auch einen hübschen Affiliate Link für die Mac-Version und für iOS. Final Fantasy VII für iOS Apropos Klassiker. Das legendäre Final Fantasy VII gibt es ebenfalls für iOS nun. Viel Spaß beim Zocken. GIPHY CAM Wer GIF’s im Handumdrehen mit einer App von Giphy erstellen will, der darf die mehr oder minder, gut bis schlechte GIPHY CAM App aus dem Apples Digitalfachhandel ziehen. Podcast-Academy Es ist soweit. Die Großkonzerne dieser Welt atmen auf, denn nun können sie sich vertrauensvoll an die Police Podcast Academy wenden, wenn sie mal so richtig auf Vollkontakt mit den eigenen Kunden gehen wollen. Wie man richtig und sanft das Mikrofon streichelt und warum das Sinn macht, bekommt ihr von Andreas und Markus beigebracht. Karabiner Patrick hat ein Full-size-Apple-Keyboard mit Nummer-Block mit einem International-Englischem Layout. Das heißt zum coden sind alle Klammervariationen einfacher zu erreichen und die wichtige Return-Taste ist noch genauso wie beim deutschen Keyboards. Ami-Tastaturen haben ja so eine Return-Taste die aussieht wie eine längere Rechts-Shift-Taste. Karabiner ist echt eine coole Hütte. Manchmal Bedarf es einer Rüge, um die App gescheit zu nutzen. Nachdem Konfluenzpunkt auf Twitter Patrick gesagt hat, dass er es für dies und das nutzt, hat sich Patrick mal die Dokumentation auf der Webseite durchgelesen, seine läppischen Mini-Shortcuts gelöscht und die ersten Schritte unternommen die App richtig zu nutzen. Was geblieben ist… ↓ Der Hyper-Key aka ⌃⌥⇧⌘ BrettTerpstra.com: A useful Caps Lock key BrettTerpstra.com: A guided tour of my Hyper key shortcuts Da nun der Hyper-Key existiert, kann es losgehen und man kann sich mit Keyboard Maestro oder der App seiner Wahl (BetterTouchTool, FastScripts, etc.) mehr zusammenschrauben. Bei Patrick öffnet Hyper-T somit den iTerm visor (Global Hotkey, bei ihm ein bildschirmfüllendes slideout Fenster für alles was nebenher und im Hintergrund getan werden kann). Launcher Mode v2 Die App Launcher Group kann mittels O gedrückt lassen und… D,D: Due.app K: Karabiner M: MailMate N: nvALT P: Path Finder S: Sublime Text S,S: Safari T: iTerm Fenster SPACE: Trigger (Keyboard Maestro) Macro by Name … Anwendungen öffnen. Das ist schick, toll und wirklich schneller als LaunchBar oder Alfred. Wer daneben noch seine meistgenutzten Ordner schnell öffnen will, ist mit hier auch richtig. So zum Beispiel: O+F+S: Skripte Ordner O+F+B: Blog Ordner O+F+U: Ubercast Ordner etc. Sonstiges Eject: Ctrl+Backtick – was bei mir eine anwendungsspezifische Keyboard Maestro Palette aufruft. FN+Eject ist dann ein normales auswerfen des CD-Schachts. Ctrl-Backtick Beispiel von Patrick: So sieht die Google Chrome Palette aus. Shifts to Parentheses hat Patrick von Steve Losh übernommen. Der nutzt jede Menge schlaue Hacks mit Karabiner und hat sich damit z.B. auch beigebracht richtig zu tippen indem er gewisse Tastenkombinationen wie Rechts-Shift+W unterbindet. 2x Rechts-Shift mutet in Skype das Mikrofon über einen Automator Workflow. Karabiner: 2x right-shift to mute Skype private.remap_2x-shift-l Mutes Skype via the command-line (triggers an AppleScript based Automator workflow) __DoublePressModifier__ KeyCode::SHIFT_R, KeyCode::SHIFT_R, KeyCode::VK_OPEN_URL_SHELL_SkypeMuteToggle, KeyCode::VK_OPEN_URL_SHELL_SkypeMuteToggle Automator AppleScript: tell application "Skype" if (send command "GET MUTE" script name "MuteToggler") is equal to "MUTE ON" then send command "SET MUTE OFF" script name "MuteToggler" else send command "SET MUTE ON" script name "MuteToggler" end if end tell Ansonsten hat Karabiner noch tolle Beispiele dabei wie den “Browsing Mode” um Webseite angenehm per Tastatur abzulesen oder beispielsweise cmd+Q,Q um Apps zu beenden – somit schließt ihr nie wieder ausversehen eine App, obwohl ihr nur mit cmd+W das Fenster zumachen wolltet. Wem das zu viel Einschränkung auf einmal ist, der kann dieses Verhalten auch auf spezifische Apps begrenzen. Patrick nutzt es nur für den Browser, weil es dort ein schwerer Schicksalsschlag ist, wenn beim Neustart alle Tabs erst einmal geladen werden müssen. Auf GitHub (oder eurem Mac in den tiefen der Karabiner Installation) findet ihr alle Standardkonfigurationen, so auch die des Launcher Modes. Diese erleichtern es einem Anpassungen vorzunehmen. Um zum Beispiel den Browser cmd+Q,Q Shortcut zu nutzen, sucht man sich die passende Seite raus und modifiziert diese leicht, damit nur Safari und Google Chrome eine Extra-Einladung zum beenden benötigen: Press Command+Q twice to Quit Browser private.doublepresscommandQinBrowsers SAFARI, GOOGLE_CHROME ModifierFlag::CONTROL_L, ModifierFlag::CONTROL_R, ModifierFlag::OPTION_L, ModifierFlag::OPTION_R, ModifierFlag::SHIFT_L, ModifierFlag::SHIFT_R, __DoublePressModifier__ KeyCode::Q, MODIFIERFLAG_EITHER_LEFT_OR_RIGHT_COMMAND, KeyCode::VK_NONE, KeyCode::Q, MODIFIERFLAG_EITHER_LEFT_OR_RIGHT_COMMAND Wer die komplette private.xml von Patrick sehen will, kann sich dieses Gist anschauen. Lieblings Server App? Was so im Internet cool ist pickt Andreas. Wallabag erlaubt euch ein selbstgehostetes “Pocket” aufzusetzen. Es gibt sogar ein Extensions, eine iOS und Android App. Ansonsten wäre da noch die selbstgehostete ownCloud mit der man grundsätzlich schon einmal (fast) alles machen kann dank der App-Schnittstelle. Konvertieren auf der Kommandozeile Ein Hoch auf afconvert, ffmpeg, textutil und pandoc stimmt Andreas an. Völlig zurecht, den afconvert und textutil sind schon bei den Bordmittel auf eurem Mac mit dabei. Das eine kümmert sich darum die typischen Apple Audioformate zu konvertieren, z.B. afconvert -f m4af -d alac Sven.aifc -o Sven.m4a und das andere kann eine breite Palette von Textformaten konvertieren. Wer öfters mal nach Powerhausen fährt in Sachen Audio/Video ist jedoch mit dem Tausendsassa ffmpeg gut bedient. Die Schwergewicht-Keyboard-Heber unter euch dürfen pandoc nutzen um das gleiche Wunderwerk mit Text zu vollbringen. pandoc kann beispielsweise auch das ePub-Format generieren. Deine 5 liebsten Keyboard Maestro Macros Andreas: Tag: Quote in Day One Work Macro Fenster Management ⌘⌥F in FCPX und Motion Print Mail und die Hazel-Regel Patrick: Images Macro Image Manipulation Series - Keyboard Maestro Image Editing Suite — RocketINK URL Macro Screenshot Palette Taking Screen Shots And Automating Image Manipulation Trello Macro Trello this with Keyboard Maestro — RocketINK Trello Markdown Export — RocketINK Notes Macro Updated Notes Palette Filing Macro — RocketINK Mehr Text-Macros von Zettt gibt’s hier und Patrick hat seine Sammlung hier. PS: Der Keyboard Maestro Macro Launcher den Patrick gemeint hat in der Sendung ist tatsächlich von der App selbst. Die Action heißt “Trigger Macro by Name”. Die 5 häufigsten Launcher Actions Patrick: Instant Send (meist zu irgendeinem Ordner) DDG Search Google Images Leo Dictionary Timer - byteDash 2014 Andreas: Instant Send Keyboard Maestro macros Google Amazon Quit/Force Quit/Open Anyway Unsere Picks Patrick: Rego Andreas: BetterSnapTool Die Flugmannschaft dieser Woche. In Spenderlaune? Wir haben Flattr und PayPal am Start und würden uns freuen.

(Patrick) So, nach weiteren Schwierigkeiten gibt es nun wirklich die 2. Staffel vom RPG-Cast. Viel neues wird euch erwarten. Neben den Newsflash wird ab sofort Jan an meiner Seite sein und mit mir durch die Sendung führen. Dazu gibt es neue tolle Features! Neben der bereits beliebten Toolbar gibt es schon ganz bald den neuen RPG-Cast Handyservice und auch eine Grußbox - Wir lesen eure Grüße On-Air vor! Es sind noch weitere Features geplant! Z.B. gibt es ab dem 1. Dezember wieder einen Adventskalender, das RPG-Casting geht in eine neue Runde und im Dezember erwartet euch ein 24-Stunden Marathon. Jede Stunde eine neue Ausgabe vom RPG-Cast! - Dazu schon bald mehr! Aber nun erstmal die Themen für Sendung #54: Schlag den Raab - Seine Dritte Niederlage verhindert! (Jan) Gut 2 Wochen nach der großen TV Total Stock Car Crash Challenge, ging es für Stefan Raab in das nächste Große Event. Schlag den Raab war mal wieder dran. Es standen wie immer 5 Kandidaten zur Verfügung. Der Kandidat der gegen Stefan Raab Spielen durfte wurde wie immer durch ein Telefonvoting bestimmt. Nach kurzer Zeit stand Fest dass die 33 Jährige Sonja Bartelt gegen Stefan antreten durfte. Mit dabei waren Disziplinen wie Schreien, Autoball, Reaktion, und Pfahl klettern. Natürlich waren auch ältere Disziplinen wie Stimmt´s, und Wer ist das dabei Anfangs sah es auch noch ganz gut für sie aus, was sich gegen Mitte der Sendung schnell änderte. Am Ende verlor die Kandidatin mit 72:19 Die nächste Schlag den Raab Ausgabe findet am 15.Dezember.2007 statt. Das nächste TV Total Event steht auch schon wieder an und zwar am 24.11.2007, Das große TV Total Turmspringen. MTV European Music Awards 2007 (Patrick) Eine Show der Superlative. Am vergangenden Donnerstag wurden die MTV European Music Awards in der Olypia-Halle in München vergeben. Moderiert wurde die Show von Rapper Snoop Dogg. Neben zahlreichen deutschen Bands und Promis wie z.B. Tokio Hotel, No Angels, Jan Deelay, Jens Lehmann, Boris Becker, etc. gläzten auch Bands aus ganz Europa auf dem roten Teppich. Mit dabei unter anderem: Nelly Furtado, Avril Lavigne, Pussycat Doll Nicole Scherzinger, Will-I-Am von den Black Eyed Peas und viele weitere mehr! Doch zum Schluss war die kleinste die größte. Gleich zwei MTV-EMA's konnte Avril Lavigne mit nach Hause nehmen. Einmal für den Besten Song "Girlfriend" und für den besten Solo Artist. Doch es gab auch Auftritte von Stars wo man nur den Kopfschütteln konnte. Amy Winehouse, die zuletzt nicht gerade positive Meldung brachte, gewann ebenfalls den begehrten Preis. Doch schon bei ihrem Auftritt zuvor konnte sie kaum gerade stehen und brachte nur schiefe Töne raus. Ihre Dankesrede dauerte sehr lange. Doch sie hatte dabei vergessen zu sprechen. Auch Tokio Hotel gewannen einen Award, zwar nur für den besten Webauftritt, aber sie haben auf jeden Fall nun den Award. Auch Tokio Hotel performten auf der Bühne. Sie spielten den Song "Monsoon" im "Strömenden Regen". Meiner Meinung ein guter Auftritt, auch wenn das meiste Publikum zum anfang mal wieder anderer Meinung waren. Hier die Gewinner: Solo Artist 2007: Avril Lavigne Most Addictive Track (Bester Song) Avril Lavigne "Girlfriend" Best Inter Act (Webauftritt, Fanaktionen): Tokio Hotel Best German Act: Bushido Rock out: 30 Seconds to Mars Ultimate Urban (R'n'B): Rihanna Band 2007: Linkin Park Album of the Year: Nelly Furtado "Loose" Headline (Live-Band): Muse Video Star (Bestes Video): Justice "D.A.N.C.E." Artists Voice: Amy Winehouse Übrigens: Die Tickets für die Show lagen auf dem Schwarzmarkt bei 3.000 Euro!!! Wer das Spektakel verpasst hat hat noch die Chance eine von mehreren Wiederholungen auf MTV zu sehen! Der RPG-Newsflash - Neue Access Prime bei GIGA! - RPG-Cast@Podcast Award 2008 - Das große RPG-Casting 2007! Kinotipp: "Lissi und der Wilde Kaiser" "Lissi und der wilde Kaiser" ist - nach den Blockbustern "Der Schuh des Manitu" und "(T)Raumschiff Surprise - Periode 1" - das neueste Filmprojekt von Michael 'Bully' Herbig: Eine "Sissi"-Parodie als 3D-Animationsfilm. Die heile Welt des überglücklichen Kaiserpaares Lissi und Franz, gerät eines Tages völlig aus der Bahn... Unfreiwillig stürzen sie in ein turbulentes Abenteuer, auf das selbst ihr treuer Freund, der Feldmarschall nicht vorbereitet war... Fazit: 9 von 10 Punkten - lustiger Kaiserschmarn ACHTUNG! Leider ist uns ein Tonproblem unterlaufen. Wir entschuldigen das Rauschen und die leise Stimme von Jan. Wir versuchen dies bis nächste Woche zu verbessern! Zur Zeit funktioniert der Online-Player nicht. Bitte klicke einmal auf Download. Dann kannst du dir die aktuelle Sendung anhören! Wir arbeiten an dem Problem!