Podcasts about elizabeth it

Hello lovelies! Thanks for listening!So, just as my last podcast episode titled "The Year of the Snake"

Hello lovelies! Thank you for listening! So, this year in the Chinese Zodiac is the year of the Snake. There are 12 animals in the Chinese Zodiac and every 12 years they repeat from "1" to "12". Just as snakes shed their skin (when they've 'outgrown' it), a lot of people feel the 'pull' to pivot or to change things up or to 'rebrand' this year, if you're in business.At first I didn't feel any different...until a couple of weeks ago (the week that I recorded this episode actually). Now, I feel the ' to pull change things up and to possibly rebrand. I personally have seen at least a dozen or more peeps in the online business space that are rebranding already this year and I'm sure there will be many, many more.If you haven't noticed it, I'm sure you will start to! ;-)As an upcoming interviewee and new friend has said earlier this year (who is also going through a rebrand), Taylor Elyse Morrison, to "expect the unexpected". Look out for her interview in the coming weeks! ;-)In this episode I talk more about how I'm feeling about this change and what it means for me and this podcast specifically!Are you feeling the pull to also pivot; change things up or to rebrand? Let me know by leaving a comment below!I hope you enjoy this episode.

Hello lovelies! Thanks for listening! So I've recently been thinking

Hello lovelies! Thanks for listening!I've spoken on many previous podcast episodes regarding asking for help.

Hello lovelies! Thanks for listening! Resting Isn't Laziness, y'all. How many of us grew up (and still feel to this day) that if we were to take a nap or God forbid, sit down

Hello lovelies! Thanks for listening! This is a re-lease from November of 2024. My hopes are to help other introverts, Empaths and/or HSP's in coping with everything going on. We need to especially take self-care and self-love right now. I hope you enjoy this episode and that it helps you in some way shape or form. Sincerely, Elizabeth ~~~~~~~~~~~~It's Finally Here!My $1.00 Offer is Ready for Purchase-->My 5 Favorite Energy Saving Tips for Introverts! Buy ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠!Here is the full link if the one above isn't working (for some reason): ⁠https://my-5-favorite-tips-to-conserve-energy-3.teachery.co/...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hello lovelies! Thanks for listening! I was originally gonna have a totally different episode but with a ‘sign of the times' and with Valentine's Day being close to when this episode comes out (and being a self-love advocate) you know that I had to do a Self-love for Valentine's Day ❣️episode! I talk about some of these things in my Summer of Self-love Series on episode 109 Planning ‘Me Time' Dates.Let's take Valentine's Day back y'all! This holiday is “supposed” to only be for romantic relationships and it's a commercialized holiday but let's take it back for ourselves. There is so much hype and patriarchy imbedded ideals that you have to be with someone romantically and that if you're not (especially if you're a woman), that you're essentially a loser.

Hello loves! Thanks for listening!Another saying that's been helping me to cope right now is “this is only temporary”.

Hello lovelies! Thank you for listening!Lately and with coming ‘Back to Self' like my podcast episode a couple of weeks ago, I've been reminding myself of this fact that “I am enough”.It's funny how society and people in general can make you feel otherwise.They put their pressures onto us and (especially women and people of color), like we're not worthy or ‘enough' unless we're perfect and we accomplish a lot of tasks and we're “yes people”.I've never been a “yes person” (sorry not sorry) to say.Like my podcast episode back in the Summer with the same title…“what others think of us is none of our business”, right?

Hello lovelies! Thanks for listening! The following episode is a re-release from 2024. I must say…I am disappointed that in 2025, the Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Holiday in the US (when it is observed), happens to fall on Monday, January 20, 2025, which just so happens to also be the presidential inauguration. Most recently a lot of DEI (diversity, equity, inclusion) programs are being removed; Affirmative Action has been or is being removed. Fun Fact: It mostly helped white women. And there are so many more programs and civil rights that are on the chopping block as we speak.

Adapting to life between jobs, a Christian conversation meeting conversion, One set of footprints, Andy's future beach era dreams being dashed, searching for missing persons as a hobby, and a birthday present ring for Elizabeth… It's all covered on this week's Nobody's Listening Right? Podcast. ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ Support the show via Patron!  https://patreon.com/nobodyslisteningright Buy the Merch!  https://www.nobodyslisteningright.com/ Find us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nobodyslisteningright/ Watch us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@nobodyslisteningright Find us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nobodyslisteningright Shop with us: https://www.amazon.com/shop/nobodyslisteningrigh ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ 00:00 Intro 00:35 Work and SAHM balance 19:07 Midroll: Support Our Patreon 19:37 Elizabeth Learning French 21:25 How To Build Habits 24:32 Domino's Pizza Coma 30:24 Elizabeth Goes Full Christian 39:39 Bible Verse 45:32 Metal Detector Era

Upcoming Event!How Can Mindfulness Help You Reach Financial Independence?Do you want to reduce money anxiety, but don't know who to trust?Would you like to learn how to set up and manage your own retirement plan?Do you want to know how we create a passive income stream you can't outlive?If yes, join us and learn how to answer the 4 critical financial independence questions:Am I on track for financial independence?What do I need to do to get on track?How do I design a mindful investing portfolio?How do I manage that portfolio and my income over time through changing markets?Learn more: https://courses.mindful.money/financial-independence-bootcampElizabeth Ralph is a wealth strategist and intuitive investor who retired at the age of 39 to help others reach financial freedom in non-traditional ways. She was a financial executive and an energy trader until in 2012 she had an epiphany while feeding Cheetos to a kangaroo on a beach in Australia. She realized her purpose was saving unwanted horses and committed to a strategy to achieve financial freedom within ten years.Today, Elizabeth joins the show to discuss her philosophy on money and spirituality, the myth of freedom and the risk of procrastination.

Are you ready to skyrocket your knowledge of Amazon PPC? In this TACoS Tuesday episode, prepare to be amazed as we bring you the secrets of the trade from none other than Elizabeth Greene, the co-founder of Amazon ads agency Junglr. Dive into the world of data analytics and learn why understanding the numbers behind the numbers is crucial. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned seller, we've got insights that are bound to give your Amazon PPC game a boost. We talk about the core strategies for launching new products, from using supplementary keywords to strategic ad placements. We uncover the importance of context when branching into new markets and how to leverage different keyword match types to target specific search terms. Learn about optimizing strategies for Black Friday and Cyber Monday, and how to manage your budget effectively during these peak seasons. Lastly, ignite your understanding of advertising for branded products on Amazon. We debate the significance of tracking the share of search and using Search Query Performance reports, and reveal our strategies for advertising for products with only a few relevant keywords. Tune in and take away valuable strategies and insights that will elevate your Amazon advertising game to new heights.   In episode 511 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Shivali and Elizabeth talk about: 00:00 - It's Time For Another TACoS Tuesday Episode! 05:34 - Evaluating and Auditing PPC Strategy  08:10 - Analyzing Ad Spend Efficiency and Impact 12:34 - Advertising Strategy and Keyword Targeting 17:45 - Advertising Strategy for New Product Launch 25:32 - Keyword Research Using Helium 10 30:51 - Using Keywords and Sales Volume 36:31 - Optimizing Bids for Better Ad Performance 42:22 - Control Ad Spend, Gain Campaign Impressions ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Shivali Patel: Today, on TACoS Tuesday, we answer all of your PPC questions live, as well as discuss what you could be doing in terms of launching and auditing your PPC campaigns during the Q4 season. Bradley Sutton: How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. Want to enter in an Amazon keyword and then within seconds, get up to thousands of potentially related keywords that you could research. Then you need Magnet by Helium 10. For more information, go to h10.me/magnet. Magnet works in most Amazon marketplaces, including USA, Mexico, Australia, Germany, UK, India and much more. Shivali Patel: All right, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Series Dollars podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Shivali Patel, and this is the show that is our monthly TACoS Tuesday presentation, where we talk anything and everything Amazon ads. So today we have a special guest with us, and that is Elizabeth Greene, who is the co-founder of an Amazon ads agency called Junglr. So with that, let's go ahead and bring her up. Hi, Elizabeth, how are you? I'm doing well, how are you? Elizabeth: Very good. Shivali Patel: So, nice to have you on. Thank you for joining us. Elizabeth: Yeah, thanks for having me. These are always, always fun. Shivali Patel: And what an exciting time to be talking about Amazon ads to a fat. It's cute for you. Oh my goodness, you must be slammed. Elizabeth: Life is a little bit crazy right now, but you know it comes with the territory. Shivali Patel: So it does. It is peak season I see we have someone coming, so it's a very exciting time to be in business and I'm looking forward to reading your questions and hopefully having Elizabeth answer them Now. The first question here says what can you suggest for a beginner like me, who is just starting out, and what and where can I learn to grow as much as possible? Elizabeth: I would actually say there's two skills that one, in the beginning, none of us have, and they are skills and they can be learned, even though they're considered more quote, soft skills. Data analytics made it not as much. Shivali Patel: My two things are going to be. Elizabeth: Data analytics and communication skills Community Asian sales are, you're going to find, are quite important when it comes to management of accounts management of accounts that are not your own. So if you are, even if you're a brand manager in a company or, you know, obviously, at an agency seller and a sourcing person, okay then I'm going to go with data analytics. Data analytics are going to be your friend. The things that I've kind of discovered have been, like you know, sort of mind blowing. For me are the numbers behind, the numbers Meaning. So when you're trying to evaluate ACoS, right, a lot of people are like, oh, it costs one up, it costs with down. Great, I know this, I can look at the account. What the heck am I going to do about it? Data analytics really good data analytics not only tell you the what, but the why and then the what next. So you're, if you can get really really good at the why and the what next, that's going to really set you apart and the way that I kind of have come to it. This is my own personal journey. Maybe there's other people who are way smarter than me, have way better journeys, but for me it has been, again understanding the numbers behind the numbers to have, for example, right, you start in a little bit of a way, it's kind of like the matrix. Elizabeth: So when you're breaking down, say ACoS, right, you go, okay, ACoS one up, big, else one down. Why right, what the heck happened? You're like, oh, wait, I can calculate ACoS by ad spend divided by ad sales. Okay, so it's either that ad spend went up and sales remain consistent or went down, or ad sales went down and spend remain consistent. She like, oh, okay, there's those two variables. Okay, now I can say, okay, ad spend increased. And then I can go, okay, ad spend increased. Great, I know that why. And then you're like, okay, so I can calculate my ad spend by my cost per click, by my number of clicks. Elizabeth: So either my cost per click went up or the number of clicks happening in my account went up. And then you can look at those two variables and go, oh, okay, it's the number of clicks. Why? Oh, I just launched a whole bunch of new stuff. Okay, that's why. Or my cost per click went up exponentially. Why? Maybe you know, it's just a natural market change thing. Talking about prime time, peak season, now you're probably going to see cost per clicks going up. It's a market thing. Versus other times you might have aggressively increased a whole bunch of bits in your account and so then you go check back. So data analytics that's the way I view it. I am not classically trained on data analytics, I just have looked at it for over five years now and tried to figure out the what the heck is going on a question and the what to do about it questions, and so those. That's my way of sort of. I've learned to sort of peer into the matrix. So if you can get really good at understanding not just what the data is but what it's telling you, that's really going to get you to the next level. Shivali Patel: Definitely, and I think a lot of people have very different strategies. I think Elizabeth's strategy, you know, is definitely one you should take into consideration. But also, the best way to learn is going to be trial and error and until you're really sifting through your own data, I think it's going to be hard to you know gauge sort of what's happening. I think a lot of things in business are just as they come. Now I want to kind of take the other side of that and go into, let's say, somebody's not a beginner, right, somebody's been selling for a while. They're more established. What do you recommend to somebody who might be evaluating or trying to audit their own PPC strategy? Elizabeth: Next level is going to be evaluating things on a per product level. And let me clarify when I say per product, I mean per listing. The reason why is the data gets kind of funky when you pull it down to a skew level. You definitely can, but there's some nuances that you really want to be aware of that can kind of lead you in the wrong direction if you're looking at a per skewer, per child days and level. But if you can start looking at your ad strategy, your sales growth, everything through the lens of listings, that's really going to take you to the next level. Shivali Patel: So when you see listings, are you talking about maybe like the conversion metrics? Are you looking at the keywords that you're using, sort of what is like the underlying factors? I guess all the above. Elizabeth: Honestly, but to make sense of it all. Because, to your point, like force for the trees, if you look at like everything, then do you walk away being like I have no idea what in the world I'm supposed to focus on? So the way that we've begun looking at it and the reason why we started looking at it like this is because we managed several clothing accounts. Talk about complexity, talk about force for the trees. You're like where in the world do I start? And you want to make impact on these accounts. Right, you can't just like all right, I did my bit, adjustments and call it good. Like you really want to get at our hands dirty and like really start improving the accounts. But you're like where in the world do I focus? So what we've started doing is percentage of total have been a little bit of a game changer. They're not, it's not the newest thing on the block. A lot of people use this percentage of total, but the two things that we look at is the percentage of total sales of each. Again, we're talking about a listing level. Again, reason clothing you have up to hundreds of different SKUs on a per listing level. Like how the heck do you make sense of it. So how do we make sense of it is rolling it up to the parent listing level and then looking at the percentage of total ad spend, again on a per listing. Elizabeth: So this gives you a lot of clarity into what products are driving the most sales for the brand. And then, what products are we spending, are we investing the most ad spend on? And when you look at it this way, it's very common to have these things happen in the account. If you haven't been paying attention to them, you oftentimes will see like oh wow, this product's driving 2% of my total sales volume and I'm spending 10% of my total ad spend here. Like that's probably a discrepancy. Maybe I should go and adjust those ads. So that gives you a lot of clarity. And then to court of gauge because again we're an ad agency, so ads are the thing that we focus on the most to help and drive improvements for the brands is we will look at the impact of the total spend on that per product. So again, percentage of total ad spend, and then we'll look at what we call like quote ad spend efficiencies, meaning ACoS, Total ACoS, ad sale percentage, also the delta between your ad conversion rate and your total conversion rate. Our unit session percentage is actually really helpful gauge. And so we're like, okay, we're investing most of our dollars here. How is our efficiency on that large investment? Elizabeth: And then you can sort of pinpoint like, oh, wow, I'm investing most of my ad spend into this product, to the point of like 5% of total brand sales, 13% of total ad spend investments. And wow, the ad spend investments are really unprofitable. Now, if you're in a launch phase, there might I mean there's context that you need to add to the numbers, to the point of like telling the story with data. And if you're managing the brand, you probably know the context. But at least it goes as okay. So here's two products we should dig into more. Here's two products we need to probably invest more of our ad spend on. And it really starts to clarify things when you really kind of understand how to see the picture in that way. Shivali Patel: To kind of follow up on that how do you really end up deciding which keywords to go after, as well as, maybe, how to really structure them into campaigns in accordance with your budget, because I know that's different for everyone? Elizabeth: Yes, it definitely is. We will always focus on relevancy first in the beginning. Now there are certain times if you're doing like a brand awareness play or you're like, wow, I've really targeted my market and I need to branch out, like what's the next hill? Absolutely go after categories, you know like, go after those brand awareness plays. But if you're in the beginning and you're in a launch, the nuance of Amazon advertising is you're not building, you don't build the audience. Amazon has built the audience for you. Elizabeth: All we're looking to do is use specific keywords or search terms to get in front of the audience that is already existing and that's where relevancy comes in. So you're saying where is my specific shopper? What are they using to search for products like mine? And I need to make sure I'm showing up there. So we're always going to prioritize that. That typically is going to get you better conversions, you know, better clicks, more interactions with your brand and which leads to more sales. And then also on the flip side, and if you're doing this on launch, it is a really good product sort of evaluation, because if you're showing up exactly in front of your target shoppers and your click rate is terrible and your conversion rate is terrible and like nobody's buying, there's probably a signal that maybe there's things to adjust with the listing or other factors that you should look into. Shivali Patel: Do you ever go into, like branch into, I guess, supplementary keywords where maybe it's not exactly for the product but it's maybe like a related product, and where do you really place those sort of ads? Elizabeth: Yeah, so when we'll do it is really dependent on the overall performance and the ads spend or profit goals, right? I mean, it seems so stupid, simple, but if you are advertising more, you're going to be spending more, and if you're struggling to bring down Total ACoS or ACoS again, ad spend divided by ad sales, the one thing you can control with ads is ad spend. So in those cases when we're looking to bring down Total ACoS, we're typically looking at pulling back on ad spend. So if a product or brand is in that phase, I'm not going to be like let's launch all these broad things and we're not quite sure how they're going to convert, right? So context is really key here, but when it comes to branching out, it really is dependent. Elizabeth: You will find certain products on launch where, like, for some reason, it's really difficult to convert on the highly relevant terms but, like adjacent markets or, to your point, like somewhat related keywords or related products, actually work really well. So we're always going to prioritize what's working. So if we're like finding all of these search terms that are popping up through, like, say, broad match or autos or something, wow, we weren't aware that this is actually a really great market for us. But it's very obvious, looking at the data, that's something that we should, that's a direction we should go in. Then obviously we'll push towards that direction. But depending on if we're going to like decide to branch out on our own, it probably is highly dependent on the ad spend and then also sort of the phase of the product, meaning like how we kind of conquered everything and what's our next play. Shivali Patel: And in terms of when you are launching, yes, we're going for the most relevant keywords, right, that are where you can find your target audience. But what about in terms of exact match, like yes, are you going directly into exact match and auto and broad all at the same time? Are you just kind of doing exact first and then branching into auto? Elizabeth: Yeah, so we do like exact first. I'm still a huge fan of like all the above, exact phrase and broad. The one thing that we have found is like within your exact match, you can just be more specific on what search pages you're spending your ad dollars on. So if you, especially if you have limited budgets in the beginning and you're like, hey, I really want to make sure that I hyper target these keywords, exact match makes a lot of sense. Now, if you're talking about you like branching out, we're still going to prioritize putting a higher bids on our exact match keyword. So we're still going to try and have most of. Elizabeth: Let me say this if you're going to be aggressively spending on a specific search page, you're like I've identified this keyword, this is my ranking keyword, I'm going to put a lot of budget behind it. Exact match all the way. Now I don't want anyone to say that clip and be like wow, she hates broad and freight. Like, no, I love all the above. Like we run autos, run multiple autos, category targeting, like all the above, do it. But if you're trying to get really aggressive with something, it's just it's the nature of how the match type works more than like it's quote best, because they don't really think it is. Shivali Patel: Now I do see that we have some new questions, so let me go ahead and pop them up. We have can you give a refresher on how people can do modifiers, since nowadays exact sometimes performs as phrase match and phrase sometimes is like broad. So if someone wants to make sure that an exact is that exact two word phrase is adding plus in the middle self that. Elizabeth: Yes, it does, but caveat, it only officially does in sponsor brand ads. If you look at the document, I mean I gotta go check it because they're like they keep updating the documentation on the slide and like not notifying us. But from my understanding and from the reps I've talked to, and also the search storm reports, I've seen modified broad match I don't believe a hundred percent works all the time in sponsored product ads, which is super annoying. So for those of you listening who are unaware of what a modified broad match is or modified search terms, modified broad match is a thing in sponsor brand ads. So the way that broad match keywords work in sponsored brand ads and they have sense care that over to sponsor product ads is that it cannot only target. You know we do classic broad match, right, you can put keywords in the middle, you can swap stuff around. But like if I had the keyword running shoe, right, both the word running and the word shoe must be present in the search term for your kind of traditional sponsor product broad match. It's not the case anymore. Elizabeth: You can target what's called related keywords. So for example, one would be like sneaker, right, it's kind of related to running shoe. And if you wanna say. I stuck a screenshot out on LinkedIn not that long ago and I was like, how is this relevant? Like one of them, it was like targeting like a bread knife and the search term that it triggered was like ballerina farm, go figure, I don't know, but like, so you can get like this really weird, funky stuff. So what we do to kind of combat that one, just keep up on your negatives these days, like, keep a sharp eye on your search and reports and add those negatives. Elizabeth: But the one thing that you can do is just sort of like to Bradley's point make each those individual words have to show up is if, in front of each of those words that you want to make sure are present in the search term, you can add a little plus symbol. So in the example of like, say running shoes, I would say plus shoes, plus what is our running whatever? Plus running, plus shoes, right, and then that would trigger to the algorithm. Okay, you have to use these things inside of your searches, which again is a factor in sponsored brand ads. If you look at the documentation, they do say that modified broad match is a thing and it's been a thing for a while. I just hasn't been super popular. But I haven't read documentation that they've rolled that over into sponsored product ads. I don't think it's a bad idea to get in the practice of using modified broad match and sponsored product ads though. Shivali Patel: Okay, thank you for answering that question. We also have another one that says I'm going to be launching a brand new store for FBA and Shopify for my own manufactured product. What will you suggest that I do for the first few months? Elizabeth: Well, I'm gonna assume that the question is saying, with ads because that's my area of expertise like new product launches, there's a lot. So definitely follow @HumanTank because they way more than just add advice to offer you. But as far as the advertising, I would prioritize keyword research for the product launches. That actually would be really helpful when you're trying to vet even the space for your particular products. And then I would again, I would hyper focus on relevancy in the beginning. I would run that in exact match, probably high bids. Elizabeth: In the beginning you're looking for two things. You're looking to get eyeballs on your product, ideally those eyeballs conferring to sales that is remain to be seen, based on how appealing your product is to the market and how good your search pages et cetera. But you want to get eyeballs in the product and then you want to use those eyeballs to sort of vet again how much these shoppers like your particular product for purchase. So that's what I do. I would focus on those again for like the first couple weeks is typically what we do, and then you might sort of branch out into phrase match run, auto campaigns et cetera. Now here's a trick is how many keywords you choose in the beginning to launch is actually going to be determined by your budgets. So I have seen so many sellers in the groups like they'll be like oh my gosh, I just launched and launched my ads and I'm spending like $1,000 a day and I can't afford it and I don't know what's going on. Again, it's simple, kind of seems like stupid logic but the more keywords you're advertising on, the more clicks you're gonna get, the more cost per clicks you're gonna pay, the higher ads spent. So you actually want to factor in what you're doing for your launch strategy with your budgets. Elizabeth: Like I just got off a client call and we're like all right, we have these new product launches. Yeah, it's a really competitive space. It's like skincare. We're not gonna have reviews in the beginning. You know what? In the beginning we're gonna keep ad budgets really lean and we have a really good brand recognition. We're just gonna leverage brand recognition because we know the conversion rates are gonna be there. It's gonna help us get the initial products. But we also are understanding that if that's the strategy we're running again a little bit more limited, just leveraging brand lower budgets we're not expecting the sales to be exponential in the beginning. So it's like setting expectations and then kind of understanding what makes sense for you at this stage. Shivali Patel: Okay, and, keeping that in mind, the review portion that you're mentioning, right, yeah, you end up like, let's say, for example I'm not sure if I'll pronounce it right, but in Sweat's example right, his question when he's launching, do you end up waiting for the reviews to file in before you are running those ads or do you end up just kind of going in? And of course, there's many moving components, yeah, there's a lot of moving parts. Elizabeth: It depends on what the brand's wants to do. Typically we will start running stuff out of the gate Again. We just kind of set expectations. The reason why ACoS is so high in the beginning is for two reasons. One, your conversion rate tends to be a little bit lower and then, two, your cost per clicks tend to be a little bit higher because you really are trying to get aggressive to be able to get that visibility on the product and then over time, ideally, conversion rates improve because you get more reviews and then cost per clicks hopefully go down as you optimize. So between those two things, that helps it get better. So we just set expectations with like hey, because conversion rates are low means it takes more clicks to convert, which means ACoS is gonna be a little bit higher and we expect potentially sales not to be still or out of the gate. Sometimes it'll be surprised. Sometimes you launch a product and you're like, wow, this is amazing, this thing just absolutely took off and I hope for all of you listening, that is the case for you and your new products, but it's not always the case. So it's really more setting expectations and then just deciding what makes sense for you. Shivali Patel: Why would someone create like a branded campaign If they've already have their standard stuff? Do you maybe want to talk a little bit about branded campaigns? Elizabeth: Yeah, there's two kinds of branded campaigns. One is considered branded, or maybe brand defense is what you might call it. One of them is you have a whole bunch of products. Which you might do is you would advertise your own products on your other listings. The goal of that is you'd be like, hey, if somebody is going to click off, they might as well click onto my own product. Again, it's called a defensive strategy because you're plugging people off and refer to it. It's like plugging the ad spots. My competition can't get this ad spot on my listing. The other thing that you might do is if you have any branded searches happening so people searching your brand on Amazon then what you can do is you can again advertise your own products. Elizabeth: There's a lot of debate out there. They're like, oh, if I already have people searching for my brand, why in the world would I be spending on it? Because they're going to convert for my brand anyways. Yeah, there's arguments to be made. The things that you can do is you actually track your share of search in using search query performance reports to look at your own branded traffic and be like am I losing out on sales through my branded traffic? That's something you can do if you want to be like, is it worth it for me to run? But the second thing and the one I was referring to when I was talking about that more specific launch that we're doing is if you have great brand recognition meaning there's a lot of people searching for your brand you've already built up a lot of traffic to your current listings and you have a new product that fits very well into that brand. Elizabeth: So example I just gave was we have a brand that has a skincare line. Right, they have their launching complimentary products. They have really good repeat purchase rates. What we can do is for people searching their brand, we can make sure that the new products are then advertised and show up high on their branded search, where they might show up lower before if we weren't leveraging ads for that. And then what happens is someone's typing in the brand like oh, wow, there's a new product from this brand. Awesome, and most likely not always, but of course you know you read the data, but most likely you're going to get people purchasing very similar. You know you can use ads to be able to get visibility again on your own products, but you're using your new offering. So that's kind of a way to like. If you have a good brand, share to be like. Hey, I got a new product. I want to try it out using ads. Shivali Patel: Got it, and I see Sasha has a question here, and it is what's the best way to research Amazon keywords for low competition products? And I'll go ahead and add as well what do you do in the case if, let's say, there is not necessarily a market, maybe it's a brand new product that doesn't end up having any sort of crossover? You're creating a sub niche. Elizabeth: Yes, those are the most difficult. The two most difficult products to advertise for are one to your point of like there really is no relevant traffic for it. Or two, when you only have one keyword that has any search volume and there's like nothing else besides one or two keywords, because every single one of your competitors knows those one or two keywords and there's really not anything else to choose from. So there's not really a way to like play a sophisticated game. You just got to like grin and bear it in those categories, which is like kind of painful sometimes. So reword I mean your keyword research is really going to be exactly the same as for any other product. You're going to be looking at your competitors, seeing what they rank you for. I mean, we use Helium 10, love Helium 10, just did a walkthrough of how we did keyword research using Helium 10. Like it's a really great tool. Elizabeth: The one different way that we have of generating your first keyword. We actually generate two keyword less in the beginning. So what we'll do is we'll use, say, like a commonly searched keyword. So a lot of times people will start with like all right, type in a commonly searched keyword and then like, look at the ranked competitors, choose them, you know, choose the relevant ones and then go through that. What we will do is we will take that first you know pretty general keyword that we're pretty sure is relevant to the products, and what we'll do is we'll type that into. Elizabeth: I'm going to get them mixed up. I'm going to say it's magnet, it's the keyword research tool, so you type it in and then you look at search, so you sort by search volume and what we'll do is we'll actually go down that first list and find what we call our highest search volume, most relevant keyword. So what you're looking for is the intersection between where you actually have good shop or search, and it is also relevant to your product, because the more hyper relevant you get to the product, typically speaking, not always the lower your search volume is going to be. On those keywords You're like all right, what's my top of the mountain? Because oftentimes people will be like, oh, metal cup, that's a great keyword, yes, but it's not highly relevant keyword. So you're looking for, like women's metal cup for running or something like is there a good search volume there? How can I like niche down a set? And then what we'll do is we'll take that search page for a highly relevant keyword and use that as our springboard to find our top competitors. Shivali Patel: So we do also have a question from David where he asks how would you use not sure what that's supposed to say for top competitive keywords when your product have multiple attributes such as gold diamond ring, gold solid hair ring and engagement rings should I run through, bro, on each? I'm assuming that's just supposed to be. How would you search for top competitive keywords? So? Yeah so I would, I would just look for. Elizabeth: I would look for whatever is the highest relevancy, highest search volume, one that's going to give it and you're going to have a lot of applicable keywords. So the walkthrough that I did I think it's just yesterday what we did is we were looking at baby blanket, and what we start doing with our final keyword list when we're looking again we're prioritizing relevancy is you will find what we call buckets of keywords, right. So when I was doing baby blanket, it was like girls receiving blanket, receiving blanket for boys, like some like okay, there's a bunch of girl keywords and their bunch of boy keywords and these are actually a little bit related to specific variations. You can start getting really sophisticated with it. But as you do that keyword research and as you're looking for that relevancy, you're probably going to find a lot of these buckets. So what we'll do on launch is we'll like take our group out and be like okay, so to your point, we have a bunch of diamond keywords. Elizabeth: Oh wait, I have a bunch of solitary keywords, right. So you can actually group those. I can take all my solitary ones and be like hmm, I wonder if the search term solitaire is. I wonder if people like my product in relation to that search. Okay, so let me take that out. Let me put those in their own campaign. I'll label the campaign like solitary keywords or something and then I would advertise the products there or engagement ranks, right, okay, maybe that's applicable to my products. Let me again pull those out and put them in a subgroup and a campaign. The reason why I like doing this is because then I can just scan campaign manager instead of having to like go in and like, look at a campaign with, like the solitaire keywords, engagement ring keywords, gold, diamond keywords. I can be like, oh, these are sub group in campaigns and then when I'm in campaign manager, I can simply look at how each of those three campaigns are performing and be like oh, wow, it seems like gold, diamond ring keywords actually perform best and you still want to analyze at a keyword level. But that makes it a little bit more scalable to like understand shop or search behavior in relation to your product. Shivali Patel: Now I see that David also would like to know about the filter for keyword sales filter, which it is essentially just telling you on average how many sales occur for that particular keyword every single month. So that's really what you're looking at there, but, Elizabeth, maybe you want to expand on whether that's something that you end up looking at when you're doing your keyword research for these different brands that you work with. Elizabeth: I don't really Everything honest. The two things that I look at actually probably three things is I would like to look at. We look at numbers to the count of competitors that are ranking again, because we're doing that whole like find, you know, do the first list to find the second keyword, to find the really really super specific products. So if you can find good super specific products, then you can kind of like use their ranking on the keywords. So actually I love that Helium 10 added in that column because it was one that a lot of us were like calculating. Elizabeth: When I'm like God, I don't have to do the formula, I just already filter for the list, so it's really awesome. So we'll download that list and then you know, we'll just see what's the highly relevant and the kind of cross check that with search volume you can use. I don't think it's a bad idea to use, you know, kind of like the sales volume, because sometimes what you'll find is that even though there's like a high search volume, if the keyword is sort of like a little bit broader keyword, you might actually not have as much sales volume through those keywords as you would think. So it's not a bad idea to analyze it at all. We just find if we're like again, we're super honed in on that relevancy factor, then we tend to come up with the ones that have better sales volume anyways. Shivali Patel: Okay, I think that's really, really insightful. We also have Sergio. Sergio, do you like to use the same keywords for each campaign in broad phrase, and exact campaigns? Elizabeth: I do. I would say the one sort of not qualifier would put on it, the one thing you should be aware of. I would recommend keeping the bids lower in the broad and the phrase match. I don't always agree with Amazon's recommendations, but if you listen to their recommendations on this, they actually recommend that you keep it lower. Shivali Patel: And Sasha has a question. If I was to start selling a product that has a monthly volume of 60,000 units a month, how should I position myself? Should I run out? Elizabeth: I would first want to know how the product performs. That's your first goal. You want to figure out what your average cost per click is and you want to figure out what your actual conversion rate is. Once you have those factors, you can actually start building production models and sales production models and stuff. Actually, it's not hard to build or not search. You want to search traffic production models based on oh, I want to hit $50,000 a month in products, this is my conversion rate. What you need is you need your conversion rates. You really need your conversion rates is the main one, and then you're going to need your cost per clicks in the ads to be like all right, this is what it's going to cost me. Right now, you're going off of nothing. I know I've said it about 20 different times on this live, but I'm going to say it again relevancy, focus on your exact target market, see what your numbers tell you, and then you can build up from there. Shivali Patel: I think that's a good plan, so hopefully that is helpful for you. Sasha, I see we have Sweat's leaving, but he has found the response was informative. Now I wanted to touch on something we talked about at the beginning of this call, which is Q4, right, we've been talking a little bit about auditing your strategy and some general PPC knowledge, but also what about, I'm sure a lot of you guys that are watching? If you're already selling, then you probably aren't full swing. Maybe you've already gone ahead and optimized your listings for Q4. But what happens if maybe somebody is just starting to be like oh no, I completely dropped the ball? Do you have? Hopefully, not Hopefully, none of you guys are in that position, but let's say something like that happens, sort of maybe if you have a take on what somebody can do to make sure that they're still able to tap in on Q4's potential. Elizabeth: Yeah, so we're assuming it's a brand new launch product and we have nothing. Shivali Patel: We can assume that they've been selling for a while, but they haven't changed anything for Q4. Elizabeth: Got it, got it, got it. Ok, no, that's fine. So I would say if you're already selling, most likely you probably have some ad structure. You're not in a bad spot. Ok, q4, right before Black Friday, December and Monday, we're not launching a whole bunch of test campaigns. Don't do it, because what happens is Black Friday, Cyber Mondays Really, what you're doing, you don't get same. Elizabeth: I know there's not really data available, but honestly, nobody's really looking at that. An inside campaign manager. You're not going to be able to say, oh OK, I got 20. My ACOS was so much better this last hour, so let me increase these budgets, right? What you have to do is you have to look back at historical data. So if you want to test anything, do it before this week is out. Get those campaigns up, get that data, because you're going to be completely flying blind If you launched a bunch of stuff a day before. You're completely flying blind on performance metrics and it's so easy because of how many clicks are happening on the platform to really lose your shirt. So I would say, if you're like oh my gosh, I don't have any specific campaign set up for Black Friday, so that's fine, you're actually in a really good spot. So what you want to do these weeks leading up to it you actually still have time you want to go into your account and you want to evaluate what is working now, what is crushing it right now, and then I'm going to make sure, as that traffic comes in, that those have good budgets. I have healthy bids on them. Elizabeth: To be honest, days of for the most part, unless we have a really specific keyword on a very specific brand, they're like we have to be aggressive when we must win top of search for this particular keyword. For the most part, we're adjusting budgets. Day of is our typical optimizations. So what we're doing prior to that is we're like all right, if we're going to be increasing budgets, we want to make sure that all of this is super solid. So you're doing two things. One, you're identifying all the stuff that really works and you're like all right, I need to make sure again, budgets are healthy, bids are healthy, all my optimizations are done. And then the second thing we're doing and this is also very important is what is all the stuff that's not working, meaning Clips with no Sales? Where are all my high costs, low sale keywords going on? Here's a good one. What are all my untested stuff, that I've just been increasing bids. So it's so easy. Elizabeth: If you're like normal optimizations, right, we're going to go in what has no impressions, increase the bids. We do this as well. It is not a bad practice. What often happens, especially if you don't have any caps so we have caps, we're like, all right, we're never going to increase past x amount of dollars or whatever If you don't have any caps. Sometimes what happens is you're like you can end up with like $10 bids. Elizabeth: So what I would recommend doing go into your targeting tab. I would filter for everything with zero orders, or you could just leave it totally blank, sort by the bid what has the highest bid in your account and you might look at it and be like holy crap, I had no idea that was in there. And what you want to do is what we call a bid reset. So you're just looking at all this stuff and you're like, hey, it's not getting any impressions. Anyways, it's not going to hurt me if I lower my bids, but then at least I know when that traffic hits all of a sudden that random keyword that didn't have any search volume, that I had like $10 bid on. It's not going to like pop off and waste all of my ad budgets. Elizabeth: There's another filter that is really helpful to identify the irrelevant stuff. I'm not saying pause all these things. I'm saying use this filter to bring to the top everything that you're like how the heck did that get in there? Because it's super easy. When we're looking in our search term reports we're like, oh, this converted once. Let me go test it Again. Great practice. What happens is sometimes you get these random things in the account so easy for it to happen. So what you do is you go again. Targeting tab is going to be your friend here. You're going to want to filter for anything that has what is it? Zero clicks, zero, maybe once, two clicks. Elizabeth: We're looking for impressions. It has probably at least 1,000 impressions on it and you want to filter the click-through rate by anything that is lower than maybe a 0.2 or 0.15. So this says it's got a lot of impressions, it's not really doing anything in terms of sales volume and it's got really bad click-through rates. And then sort that by either your click-through rates highest or lowest to highest, or you can maybe start by impressions, highest to lowest. So what you're trying to do is what it has a bunch of eyeballs that nobody cares about and what you're doing is that brings up. Elizabeth: So a lot of people saw it. Not. A lot of people clicked on it, which oftentimes means irrelevant stuff, and because it's only got a couple clicks, there's not a lot of data, so it hasn't moved into our optimization sequences. So again, it's just a once over of the account. The first time you do this you'll probably be like what the heck, why is that there? And then, if you find that great pause, it put low bids on it, just kind of. Again, we're doing clean up. If you don't find anything that doesn't make sense for you, conkudos to. You're doing really, really good targeting. But either way, it's a really good thing to give it a once over before again traffic hits and things kind of go crazy. Shivali Patel: Now we do also have your keyword sale filter. Says 89 with low search volume, and another keyword has 20 keyword sales but a higher search volume. Is there one that you would kind of opt for? I know you said you don't typically look at the keyword sales Filter. Elizabeth: Yeah. So the two things I would look for is one I'm gonna say again, relevancy. I believe in it so strongly, I'm gonna say it again. And then the other thing that you would look at is, you know, the Helium sandwich. Again, another thing that I appreciate that you guys have added to the download keyword reports is the Recommended bits. Now, again, you guys are pulling them direct from the API, like Amazon does provide the recommended bits. However, as we all know, like if you go in you launch campaign, you like add different products, the recommended bids change, so their benchmarks don't take them as gospel, but they are really helpful to again kind of help you identify how competitive a particular keyword is over the other. So, like a budget's were concerned, you're like, well, you know, this one has like 20 sale, like the sales volume is pretty good, but like, wow, that one's Really competitive. I got to pay two dollars cost per click versus the other one where I'm like, well, I only have to pay like 50 cents cost per click. That probably would play into my decision. Shivali Patel: Okay, all right, there's. I know I said to, but let's just do this last one and then we'll. We'll call it. And so how do you structure your top keyword campaigns versus your complementary keywords? I know we briefly touched on this earlier. Elizabeth: Yeah, so I will cash with. So I saying I'm not a huge fan of doing everything as a single keyword campaign. I think it's way too overkill. You end up getting way more confused than you do in sight From doing it like that. That being said, if we do, I definitely have like a top keyword. We are going to put that in a single keyword, exact, match, specific campaign. The sort of it depends Questions and answers that I always give is the more the higher amount of Control I need over where I'm going to be directing my ad spend, the less keywords I want to have. Then more important it is for me to gain impressions on this keyword. For, again, for my campaign strategy, the less keywords I'm going to have. So if it is a top keyword, if it's my main ranking keyword, if it's super, super important to me, single keyword campaign right, because that's I need to control ad spend. I need a lot of impressions on this and super, super important versus another keyword set, right. Maybe I don't really have it. So the other, very other end of the spectrum is going to be like a whole bunch of a Campaign that actually works really well. Elizabeth: For us is single word meaning, like you know, cup bowl dish In broad match low bits. Do not put high-pits on these. Even if you have great ACoS, don't put high bits. Not a good idea. But we'll run these all the time. But what happens is because we cap our bids at, say, I think it's from 25 cents, maybe 30 cents, maybe in 15 cents. We never intend to grow our bids past that, right. Elizabeth: So how is it important for me to control ad spend at the campaign level? Not really because I'm controlling it at my bid level, right. How important is it for me to gain impressions? Not really because I'm expecting half of these keywords to not get impressions whatever. So I would be fine with putting, you know, say, 50, 100 keywords in that campaign, right, because for me it makes no sense to create 10 different campaigns that I have to like keep an eye on, versus just one important like oh yeah, that's that strategy and that's kind of like my background thing, right. So I would look at it through that lens again. How important is it for me to control spend at the campaign level? And then, how important is it for me to gain Impressions on these particular keywords? The more infatily you answer yes to those two questions, the less keywords you should have in that campaign. The more you don't really care about those two things, or they don't really matter as much then I would be okay with a lot more keywords. Shivali Patel: Alright, well, wonderful. Thank you so much, Elizabeth, for your time and your information, your knowledge. We appreciate it. I know a lot of people learned quite a bit. Sasha says thank you. We have sweat who says you know he was also waiting on those other questions that you were answering. That was very informative, so we do appreciate it so much. And yeah, that is it for today. You guys will catch you on the next TACoS Tuesday. Thank you! Elizabeth: Awesome! Thanks, I appreciate it.

Barbossa : You don't know what this is, do ye? Elizabeth : It's a pirate medallion... Barbossa : This is Aztec gold. One of 882 identical pieces they delivered in a stone chest to Cortez himself. Blood money paid to stem the slaughter he wreaked upon them with his armies. But the greed of Cortez was insatiable. So the heathen gods placed upon the gold a terrible curse. Any mortal that removes but a piece from that stone chest shall be punished for eternity. - Pirates of the Caribbean The post S36E9 – Dark Psychology: Supernatural Curses appeared first on Writing Roots.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why getting your message across is the most important goal of writing How strong writing skills help people move up in their careers  How to remove filler words from your writing Why proofreading is necessary, even if it's not important to you personally Elizabeth's top three tips for clearer writing About Elizabeth Danziger Elizabeth Danziger, the founder of Worktalk Communications Consulting, is a seasoned written communications expert with over 30 years of experience. She has a longstanding reputation for training people to become compelling, confident writers. Danziger is the author of four books published by major publishers, including Get to the Point!, a text on business writing initially published by Random House. Her work has also appeared in many magazines, including Personnel Journal, Journal of Accountancy, and other national publications. She enables people to wield the power of words to enhance their credibility and catapult ahead in their careers. Additional resources: Facebook is www.facebook.com/upworktalk LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/elizabethdanziger Twitter: www.twitter.com/writaminlady Love it or hate it, writing is a daily part of our lives. And according to author, writing consultant and communications expert Elizabeth Danziger, people who write well are more likely to advance in their careers. That's why she founded Worktalk Communications Consulting, a firm that trains professionals to write clearly and confidently. She joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about the importance of rereading; the power of language; and her tips for stronger writing. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Welcome to The Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Elizabeth Danziger, head of Worktalk Communications. Worktalk prepares teams to write clearly and confidently so they can strengthen their credibility, increase their influence and generate new possibilities. Liz is also the author of the book “Get to the Point! Painless Advice for Writing Memos, Letters and Emails Your Colleagues and Clients Will Understand.” Worktalk also has a very interesting newsletter called “Writamins,” and it's chock full of interesting information you'll want to know. Make sure to sign up for it. We'll have a link at the end of the program. Today, Liz will be talking about how we can make the best use of language. Liz, welcome to the program.   Elizabeth: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.   Sharon: So glad to have you. Every time I read what you've written, I go, “Oh my god, it's so useful.” I have to say, I took a course from Liz years ago and the one thing I always do—Liz, I don't know if you still have my emails, but you did get me to reread my emails before I sent them.   Elizabeth: Great!   Sharon: I still do that. I always remember that, because you're right. You catch things you didn't realize were there.    Elizabeth: Oh, that's wonderful.    Sharon: Tell us about your career path. Were you always into words and grammar? Was that always of interest to you?   Elizabeth: When I was a child, I wanted to be a doctor, actually. I wanted to be a physician, but I also always loved to read. I remember my mother yelling at me, like, “Why don't you go out to play?” and I'd be like, “No, I want to read.” I've always been a great reader. Then, when I got to college and hit organic chemistry and calculus, I thought, “Well, maybe my skills are better suited elsewhere,” and I became a writer.    My first book was published when I was 25, and it did well domestically and internationally. Then I wrote two more books, including “Winning by Letting Go,” published by Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. I wrote for all the women's magazines, and then I decided I wanted to work with people who were doing real things in the real world and making life happen, and not necessarily the editors of Cosmo. I also realized there's a huge need. People suffer over their writing. They suffer personally and internally, and they suffer bad consequences from lost business, lost relationships, lost possibilities. So, I founded Worktalk to support people in making themselves understood.   Sharon: How do you do this? We took a class with you, but do you work with people individually? Is it sessions? How do you do that?   Elizabeth: I work with people however they want to be worked with. Notice that I ended a sentence with a preposition, which is totally O.K. Most of our work takes the form of webinars and training sessions. We customize every one of our webinars to our clients. We get writing samples. It's like sending a blood test to the doctor. You send me your writing sample and I see what's going on. So, it's mostly trainings and webinars.    We also do writing labs, which are much smaller. Each person brings one writing sample and we workshop each other's work in the lab. Of course, I do one-on-one coaching, but mostly it's trainings and webinars. Ultimately, we work with people in whatever way they need.   Sharon: I think there are a lot of people who have a love of reading, but how did your love of reading translate into understanding grammar? It seems like that's a different thing in a sense.   Elizabeth: Truthfully, people think of me as a person associated with grammar. I didn't really study grammar until I started teaching writing. I was a writer, and I was edited by book publishers, by Hartcourt Brace Jovanovich and Random House and by the editors of Cosmo and the editors of Glamour and the editors of all these magazines. They edited me. When I decided to start doing writing training, I think a lot of it came to me intuitively. Then, when I started teaching it, I realized I had to get the rules down. That's why I tell people grammar is extremely important, of course, but getting your message across is the most important thing.   Sharon: I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but when we work with lawyers, they go to school to learn how to write in a certain way. Is there resistance, or is it more difficult to untrain them to write for the normal person?   Elizabeth: It is a little more difficult. With respect, lawyers really think they know a lot about a lot, and they're trained to argue; they're trained to think you're wrong. So, there is a little more resistance, but at the same time, I've worked with law firms. I've worked with associates who are getting dinged for the writing. Their writing's not clear; their writing's not to the point; their writing doesn't catch the issue. When I work with associates, they end up getting that taken off their performance review and they turn into good writers. I've also worked with legal firms on other things, but I love working with lawyers because they're smart. Not that people who aren't smart shouldn't call me—not that anyone would identify themselves at not smart. It's fun to work with people who learn quickly. It's fun.    Sharon: That's interesting, because it seems like if you're working with associates, there are people higher up, perhaps partners, who aren't—and once again, as you say, with respect—aren't as good a writer or as to-the-point, and they're evaluating somebody else.   Elizabeth: I'm not sure about that. My experience in all fields, in accounting, business, finance and law, is that the people at the top, they're almost always good writers, I would say. Good writing and good thinking go hand in hand, and you cannot rise to the top if you're not a really good thinker, hopefully. People who write well tend to get promoted in professional service firms. Very often, the managing partner is an exceptional writer, but the managing partner, believe it or not, has other things to do than to edit the crappy writing of the people who work for them. They need to be managing the firm. That's why they outsource to me if their associates are not up to snuff, but the top people are often good writers.   Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. They have to be persuasive, and they have to get their clients' attention, which means being to the point.   Elizabeth: Right.   Sharon: How is what you do changing today? When people are texting and abbreviating every other word—Liz is rolling her eyes here. I find myself doing that, or I'll make a mistake and think, “Well, nobody's going to notice that or know that's a mistake,” and then I say, “Sharon, you can't do that. It's not right.” How do you deal with that?   Elizabeth: That's an excellent question, and I can look at it in a couple of ways. One is that I am fighting the good fight. Like Winston Churchill said, “Fight the good fight.” Although there is a lot of texting, Slack, Whatsapp, whatever, the thing is that—and this is getting a little philosophical—if we think about it, what is the function of language? I'm sure we all love dolphins and pot-bellied pigs and whales, but they're not building legal systems; they're not building cultures; they're not doing what humans are doing. We are doing it because we have language, really sophisticated, nuanced language that can create a future and a past. It's powerful.    Language conveys meaning, but why bother to get something from my head into your head? How do we get this from my head into your head? Because we have a set of agreements. We agree. The sounds I'm making mean something. The scribbles on the page mean something, and you can make a certain number of errors in those agreements. Grammar is just a set of things we agree on. When I say, “I was,” it means it happened already. We agree on that. But if you break too many of those agreements of grammar, it creates friction in the system, and your meaning starts to fall apart. You literally lose meaning, and that's why I know the work I do is evergreen. In every class, I ask people, “Have you ever gotten an email from someone that had so many grammar and punctuation errors that you literally didn't know what the person was talking about?” and everybody says, “Yes.” It's true that people are more casual about it, and the winners, the people who end up on top, are going to be the people who communicate with a nuance and a correctness and a sophistication.   Sharon: Do you find yourself texting and abbreviating things?   Elizabeth: No, I never do. I dictate my texts, and I usually proofread them. I just don't do that. Maybe it's because I'm a boomer. I also tell people not to do it, so I don't do it.   Sharon: It's interesting to me how the world has changed. I do have to throw this out: I'm flabbergasted that they're not teaching cursive writing in some areas.   Elizabeth: I know. What's sad is that there's a lot of research on the whole process of writing by hand, the neurology and neuroscience, and there is an additional layer of writing in cursive. When you take notes by hand or when you write in cursive, different things are happening inside your brain that are enabling you to process that information at a deeper level. On a simple level, I wonder how those people are going to sign their names when they grow up. If you've never learned cursive, what is your signature going to look like? I don't know. But you're right. Of course, I have to deal with people texting and Slacking and this and that, but in the end, the bottom line of language is the same: get your message across. That's what we aim for.   Sharon: When you're teaching a class of law firm associates or younger people, let's say, do you hear more, “Oh, Liz, that's not important”?   Elizabeth: I do. What's interesting is in my section on proofreading, I always ask people, “When you receive a document that's not carefully proofread, how does it affect your opinion of the person who sent it? Positively, negatively or no impact?” I talk to people all over the country, and in most cases, the majority of people say it has a negative impact on their opinion of the person who sent it. Yet there are certain cultures and certain groups and subgroups where a lot of people will say it makes no impact on them. They don't care if somebody doesn't proofread. What I tell those people is, “O.K., so the person on your team, that person may not care at all if you proofread. Knock yourself out. But I promise you, if you write to a CEO or the government or the executive vice president or the division manager, that person will care.” Many people still do care, and we have to take care of that. We have to write for the top, not to the least common denominator.   Sharon: That's a good way to put it. I think certain professions care more. We were the recipient of this, because a firm that became our client, they switched firms because they said their other firm wasn't proofreading.   Elizabeth: Oh my gosh! I saw this in a client, a regional accounting firm that had been approached by the client of another regional accounting firm. The other firm was a very reputable firm, a good firm, and I asked my client, “Did you ask them why they are talking to you? This is like somebody who already has a girlfriend going on a date. Why are they talking to you if they already have an accounting firm?” He asked them, and what they told him was that their firm consistently misspelled their name.   Sharon: That would be a zinger, let's say.   Elizabeth: Yeah.   Sharon: Tell us some of your top secrets or your words of advice for us to keep in mind.   Elizabeth: There are three things I would suggest. The first is that you think about your reader before you write. It sounds very simple, but it astounds me sometimes how rarely people do that. They sit down and think, “Tap, tap, tap,” and they're not visualizing the living, breathing human being who's on the receiving end of that. What do they care about? What are their hot buttons? What are they wondering? What are their questions? Write for the reader. That's the first thing.    Second, write shorter sentences. Your average sentence range should be around 20 words. That doesn't mean every one should be boom, boom, boom, 20, 20, 20. Maybe some 15, maybe some 25, maybe some 30, but if you have a 30 or 35-word sentence, I want you to put two 10-word sentences around it. Microsoft Word's check readability statistics function will calculate your average sentence. That's the second thing, to write shorter sentences, and a whole cascade of good things will happen.   The third, as you remember from when we talked years ago, Sharon, is to always, always reread. You've got to reread what you wrote and make sure you didn't write something incredibly dumb, especially for attorneys. Attorneys are held to a higher standard. The scary thing about not proofreading is that people generalize. They think if you're careless at this, you're careless at that. If there's a typo in the cover letter you send to your client, “Here's the contract you asked me to draw up,” and you write “contact” instead of “contract,” and it goes straight through spell check because contact is also a word, I promise you they are going to have less confidence in the validity of the contract because there was a typo in the cover letter. That's just how we roll. It's crucial to reread and proofread everything no matter how hurried you are. The time it takes to backtrack and grovel and apologize and try and make it right is so time-consuming that it makes the time that we spend proofreading seem very, very short.   Sharon: That's a good point, what you say about lawyers being held to a higher standard. If I got a cover letter or a document from a lawyer where there was a typo, I would think, “Oh, my god, what kind of work am I going to get from this person, exactly?”    Elizabeth: It's terrifying   Sharon: Yes, it is.   Elizabeth: It's truly terrifying.   Sharon: That's true. If I got a typo in a cover letter, it would reflect poorly on the person, but if it came from the guy who's going to paint my house, I don't think I'd be thinking in the same way.   Elizabeth: Exactly, that's a great point. We have different expectations from different people. People have the highest expectations of lawyers because they associate them with precision and language, and because they rely on them to use language to plead their case.    Sharon: That's true. Rely—that word really hit me. They're advocates.   Elizabeth: Exactly, good point.   Sharon: I want to ask you two things. Are you going to be writing another follow-up to the second edition of your book “Get to the Point”?   Elizabeth: I've already done a second edition. I thought about doing a third edition, but I'm very busy with work right now, and it's a huge time commitment. I think I keep people posted by keeping up the Writamins. If you subscribe to Writamins, you'll get all the latest.   Sharon: Yes, and we'll have the link in the podcast description when we post it. One of the latest versions was talking about filler words. As I was writing something the other day, I thought, “Wait, that's a filler word,” and I took it out.   Elizabeth: Great! It really affects you. I'm so gratified.    Sharon: I never thought about it, but it's something I use all the time. Give us examples on how we get rid of them.   Elizabeth: A lot of it is just thought and self-discipline. I wish I could say, “Give me $29.95 and I'll slice and dice and microwave and cut and reduce filler words.” That would be really nice. I would be a millionaire, a multimillionaire, if I could do that. A lot of it goes back to rereading. We also need to be aware of words like “just.” I'm sorry to say this happens more often with women than with men. Men and women both do it, but women are particularly prey to “just” or “sorry.” I would like to bury these words. In other words, if I say to you, “I'm very, very sorry,” do I sound sorrier than if I said, “I'm sorry?”   Sharon: That's a good point, yeah.   Elizabeth: To my ears, the person who says, “I'm very, very sorry,” I would not necessarily say that person is twice as sorry as the person who says, “I'm sorry.” I wrote a Writamin about this. You probably remember. I was about “I would like to,” and “I wanted to.” Oh my gosh! Please read the Writamin, everyone. It's on the website. It's at Worktalk.com.   Sharon: Great information. It's so much to remember. Liz, thank you very much. Whether it's a certain rule or whether it's knowing that we need to get to the point faster, that's the most important thing you're talking about. Thank you so much for talking with us today. It's really been great. I don't know how many filler words I'm using there.   Elizabeth: No, you're doing great.   Sharon: Really, really great.   Elizabeth: Really, really, really, really, so, so, so great.   Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us.   Elizabeth: You're very, very welcome. Thank you for letting me be on this show. I appreciate it.   Sharon: It's great to talk with you.  

In this episode, we cover: Introduction (00:00) Elizabeth, AppLand, and AppMap (1:00) Why build AppMap (03:34) Being open-source (06:40) Building community  (08:50) Some tips on using AppMap (11:15) Links Referenced: VS Code Marketplace: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=appland.appmap JetBrains Marketplace: https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/16701-appmap AppLand: https://appland.com TranscriptElizabeth: “Whoa.” [laugh]. That's like getting a map of all of the Planet Earth with street directions for every single city, across all of the continents. You don't need that; you just want to know how to get to the nearest 7/11, right? Like, so just start small. [laugh]. Don't try and map your entire universe, galaxy, you know, out of the gate. [laugh].Jason: Welcome to another episode of Build Things on Purpose, part of the Break Things on Purpose podcast. In our build episodes, we chat with the engineers and developers who create tools that help us build and operate modern applications. In this episode, Elizabeth Lawler joins us to chat about the challenges of building modern, complex software, and the tool that she's built to help developers better understand where they are and where they're going.Jason: Today on the show, we have Elizabeth Lawler who's the founder of a company called AppLand, they make a product called AppMap. Welcome to the show, Elizabeth.Elizabeth: Thank you so much for having me, Jason.Jason: Awesome. So, tell us a little bit more about AppLand and this product that you've built. What did you build?Elizabeth: Sure. So, AppMap is a product that we're building in the open. It's a developer tool, so it's free and open-source. And we call it Google Maps for code. You know, I think that there has been a movement in more assistive technologies being developed—or augmenting technologies being developed for developers, and with some of the new tools, we were looking to create a more visual and interactive experience for developers to understand the runtime of their code better when they code.So, it's interesting how a lot of the runtime of an application when you're writing it or you're actually crafting it is sort of in your imagination because it hasn't yet been. [laugh]. And so, you know, we wanted to make that information apparent and push that kind of observability left so that people could see how things were going to work while they're writing them.Jason: I love that idea of seeing how things are working while you're writing it because you're so right. You know, when I write code, I have a vision in mind, and so, like, you mentally kind of scaffold out here are the pieces that I need and how they'll fit together. And then as you write it, you naturally encounter issues, or things don't work quite as you expect, and you tweak those. And sometimes that idea or the concept in your head gets a little fuzzy. So, having a tool that actually shows you in real-time seems like an extremely valuable tool.Elizabeth: Thank you. Yes. And I think you've nailed how it's not always the issue of dependency, it's really the issue of dependent behavior. And that dependent behavior of other services or code you're interacting with is the hardest thing to imagine while you're writing because you're also focusing on feature and functionality. So, it's really a fun space to work in, and crafting out that data, thinking about what you would need to present, and then trying to create an engaging experience around that has been a really fun journey that the team has been on since 2020. We announced the project in 2021 in March—I think almost about this time last year—and we have over 13,000 users of AppMap now.Jason: That's incredible. So, you mentioned two things that I want to dive into. One is that it's open-source, and then the second—and maybe we'll start there—is why did you build this? Is this something that just was organic; you needed a tool for yourself, or… what was the birth of AppMap?Elizabeth: Oh, I think that's such a great question because I think it was—this is the third startup that I've been in, third project of this kind, building developer tooling. My previous company was a cybersecurity company; before that, I helped build applications in the healthcare sector. And before that, I worked in government and healthcare. And—also, again, building platforms and IT systems and applications as part of my work—and creating a common understanding of how software operates—works—understanding and communicating that effectively, and lowering that kind of cognitive load to get everybody on the same page is such a hard problem. I mean, when we didn't all work from home, we had whiteboards [laugh] and we would get in the room and go through sprint review and describe how something was working and seeing if there was anything we could do to improve quality, performance, reliability, scalability, functionality before something shipped, and we did it as a group, in-person. And it's very difficult to do that.And even that method is not particularly effective because you're dealing with whiteboards and people's mental models and so we wanted to, first of all, create something objective that would show you really how things worked, and secondly, we wanted to lower the burden to have those conversations with yourself. Or, you know, kind of rubber ducky debugging when something's not working, and also with the group. So, we created AppMaps as both interactive visualizations you could use to look at runtime, debug something, understand something better, but also something that could travel and help to make communication a lot easier. And that was the impetus, you know, just wanting to improve our own group understanding.Jason: I love that notion of not just having the developer understand more, but that idea of yeah, we work in teams and we often have misalignment simply because people on different sides of the application look at things differently. And so this idea of, can we build a tool that not only helps an individual understand things, but gets everybody on the same page is fantastic.Elizabeth: And also work in different layers of the application. For example, many observability tools are very highly focused on network, right? And sometimes the people who have the view of the problem, aren't able to articulate it clearly or effectively or expeditiously enough to capture the attention of someone who needs to fix the problem. And so, you know, I think also having—we've blended a combination of pieces of information into AppMap, not only code, but also web services, data, I/O, and other elements and so that we can start to talk more effectively as groups.Jason: That's awesome. So, I think that collaboration leads into that second thing that I brought up that I think is really interesting is that this is an open-source project as well. And so—Elizabeth: It is.Jason: Tell me more about that. What's the process? Because that's always, I think, a challenge is this notion of we love open-source, but we're also—we work for companies, we like to get paid. I like to get paid. [laugh]. So, how does that work out and what's that look like as you've gone on this journey?Elizabeth: Yeah. You know, I think we think quietly working are certainly looking for other fellow travelers who are interested in this space. We started by creating an open data framework—which AppMap is actually both the name of a code editor extension you can install and use to see the runtime of your code to understand issues and find a fix them faster, but it also is a data standard. And with that data standard, we're really looking to work with other people. Because, you know, I think this type of information should be widely accessible for people and I think it should be available to understand.I think, you know, awareness about your software environment is just kind of like a basic developer right. And so, [laugh] you know, the reason why we made the tools free, and the reason why we've made the data structure open-source is to be able to encourage people to get the kind of information that they need to do their job better. And by making our agents open-source, by making our clients open-source, it simply allows people to be able to find and adopt this kind of tooling to improve their own job performance. And so, you know, that was really kind of how we started and I think, ultimately, you know, there are opportunities to provide commercial products, and there will be some coming down the road, but at the moment, right now we're really interested in working with the community and, you know, understanding their needs better.Jason: That's awesome. Number one, I love the embrace of, you know, when you're in the startup land, there's the advice, have never tried to monetize too early, right? Build something that's useful that people enjoy and really value, and then it'll naturally come. The other question that I had is, I'm assuming you eat your own dog food, slash drink your own champagne. So, I'm really curious, like, one of the problems that I've had in open-source is the onboarding of new community members, right? Software is complex, and so people often have troubles, and they're like, how do I fix this? They file an issue on GitHub or whatever system you're using, and there's sometimes a notion with open-source of like, that's a good thing that you called out. You can fix that because it's open-source, but people are like, “I don't know how.”Elizabeth: Yeah.Jason: Does AppMap actually help in enabling AppMap open-source contributors? Like, have you seen that?Elizabeth: So, we've had issues filed. I would say that most of the fixes still come from us. If people wanted to run AppMap on AppMap to identify the bug, [laugh] that would be great, but it doesn't really work that way. So, you know, for us at this time, most of it is community filed issues and that we are working to resolve. But I do think—and I will say—that we have actually used AppMap on open-source projects that we use, and we've found [laugh] flaws and bugs using AppMap with those projects, and have filed issues with them. [laugh].Jason: That's awesome. I love that. I mean, that's what it means to be an open-source, right, and to use open-source is that notion of, like—Elizabeth: Right.Jason: Contribute wherever you can.Elizabeth: Yeah. And if that's the way, you know, we can contribute, you know—and I think similarly, I mean, our relationship to open-source is very strong. So, for example, you know, we came from the Ruby community and there's lots of different kinds of open-source projects that are commonly used for things like security and authentication and we've done a lot of work in our own project to tag and label those commonly-used libraries so that they can be—when you pop open an AppMap everything is all beautiful and tagged and, you know, very nicely and neatly organized for you so you can find everything you're looking for. Similarly, we're working with open-source communities in Python and Java and now JavaScript to do the same thing, which is, you know, to make sure that important information, important commonly used libraries and tools are called out clearly.Jason: So, as you're adding more languages, you're going to get more users. So, that brings me to our final question. And that's, as you get all these new users, they probably need some guidance. So, if you were to give some users tips, right? Someone goes out there, like, “I want to use AppMap,” what's some advice that you'd give them related to reliability? How can they get the best experience and build the best code using AppMap?Elizabeth: Yes. So, this has actually been a key piece of feedback, I think, from the community for us, which is, we released this tool out to the world, and we said, “We're going to bring here; we come with gifts of observability in your code editor.” And people have used it for all kinds of different projects: They've used it for refactoring projects, for debugging, for onboarding to code, for all of these different use cases, but one of the things that can be overwhelming is the amount of information that you get. And I think this is true of most kinds of observability tools; you kind of start with this wall of data, and you're like, “Where am I going to start?”And so my recommendation is that AppMap is best used when you have a targeted question in mind, not just kind of like, you know, “I'd like to understand how this new piece of the codebase works. I've shifted from Team A to Team B, and I need to onboard to it.” “I'd like to figure out why I've got a slow—you know, I've been told that we've got a slowdown. Is it my query? Is it my web service? What is it? I'd like to pinpoint, find, and fix the issue fast.”One of the things that we're doing now is starting to leverage the data in a more analytic way to begin to help people focus their attention. And that's a new product that we're going to be bringing out later this spring, and I'm very, very excited about it. But I think that's the key, which is to start small, run a few test cases that are related to the area of code that you're interested in if that's an onboarding case, or look for areas of the code you can record or run test cases around that is related to the bug you have to fix. Because if you just run your whole test suite, you will generate a giant amount of data. Sometimes people generate, like, 10,000 AppMaps on the first pass through. And they're like, “Whoa.” [laugh]. That's like getting a map of all of the Planet Earth with street directions for every single city, across all of the continents. You don't need that; you just want to know how to get to the nearest 7/11, right? Like, so just start small. [laugh]. Don't try and map your entire universe, galaxy, you know, out of the gate. [laugh].Jason: That's fantastic advice, and it sounds very similar to what we advise at Gremlin for Chaos Engineering of starting small, starting very specific, really honing in on sort of a hypothesis, “What do I think will happen?” Or, “How do I think I understand things?” And really going from there?Elizabeth: Yeah. It does, it focuses the mind to have a specific question as opposed to asking the universe what does it all mean?Jason: Yeah. Well, thanks for being a guest on the show today. Before we go, where can people find AppMap if they're interested in the tool, and they want to give it a try?Elizabeth: So, we are located in the VS Code Marketplace if you use the VS Code editor, and we're also located in JetBrains Marketplace if you use any of the JetBrains tools.Jason: Awesome. So yeah, for our VS Code and JetBrains users, go check that out. And if you're interested in more about AppMap or AppLand, where can folks find more info about the company and maybe future announcements on the analysis tooling?Elizabeth: That would be appland.com A-P-P-L-A-N-D dot C-O-M. And our dev docs are there, new tooling is announced there, and our community resources are there, so if anyone would like to participate in either helping us build out our data model, feedback on our language-specific plans or any of the tooling, we welcome contributors.Jason: Awesome. Thanks again for sharing all of that info about AppMap and AppLand and how folks can continue to build more reliable software.Elizabeth: Thank you for having me, Jason.Jason: For links to all the information mentioned, visit our website at gremlin.com/podcast. If you liked this episode, subscribe to the Break Things on Purpose podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform. Our theme song is called “Battle of Pogs” by Komiku, and it's available on loyaltyfreakmusic.com.

Grant Welcome everybody. In this episode, we take a look at the four pitfalls to AI ethics and are they solvable? Okay, hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So glad to have in the house today Plainsight AI. What a privilege. Elizabeth Spears with us here today. Hi, Elizabeth. Elizabeth Hey, Grant. Thanks for having me back. Grant Thanks for coming back. You know, when we were talking last time, you threw out this wonderful topic around pitfalls around AI ethics. And it's such a common sort of drop phrase, everyone's like, oh, there's ethics issues around AI. Let's, let's shy away from it. Therefore, it's got a problem, right? And I loved how you came back. And it was after our episode, it's like he pulled me aside in the hallway. Metaphorically like "Grant, let's have a topic on the pitfalls around these some of these ethical topics here". So I, you hooked me I was like, Oh, perfect. That's, that's a wonderful idea with that. Elizabeth So typically, I think there's, there's so many sort of high level conversations about ethics and AI, but, but I feel like we don't dig into the details very often of kind of when that happens, and how to deal with it. And like you said, it's kind of the common pitfalls. Grant It is. And, you know, it's interesting is the, in the AI world in particular, it seems like so many of the ethical arguments come up around the image, style of AI, right, you know, ways in which people have misused or abused AI, right for either bad use cases or other sort of secret or bad approaches. So this is like you are the perfect person to talk about this and, and cast the dagger in the heart of some of these mythical ethical things, or maybe not right. All right. Oh, yeah. Alright, so let's talk through some of these. So common pitfalls. So there were four areas that you and I sort of bantered about, he came back he said, Okay, let's talk about bias. Let's talk about inaccuracy in models, a bit about fraud, and then perhaps something around legal or ethical consent violations. Those were four that we started with, we don't have to stay on those. But let's tee up bias. Let's talk about ethical problems around bias. All right. Elizabeth So I mean, there's really there's several types of bias. And, and often the biased and inaccuracies can kind of conflate because they can sort of cause each other. But we have I have some examples of of both. And then again, somewhere, some where it's it's really biased and inaccuracies that are happening. But one example or one type is not modeling your problem correctly, and in particular, to simply so I'll start with the example. So you want to detect safety in a crosswalk, right, relatively simple kind of thing. And, and you want to make sure that no one is sitting in this crosswalk. Because that would be now generally be a problem. It's a problem. So, so you do body pose detection, right? And if you aren't thinking about this problem holistically, you say, All right, I'm going to do sitting versus standing. Now the problem with that is what about a person in a wheelchair? So then you would be detecting kind of a perceived problem because you think someone sitting in the middle of a crosswalk but but it's really just about accurately defining that problem. And then and then making sure that's reflected in your labeling process. And and that kind of flows. into another whole set of problems, which is when your test data and your kind of labeling process are a mismatch with your production environment. So one of the things that we really encourage for our customers is, is collecting as much production close as close to possible, or ideally just production data that you'll be running your models on, instead of having sort of these very different test data sets that then you'll then you'll kind of deploy into production. And there can be these mismatches. And sometimes that's a really difficult thing to accomplish. Grant Yeah, so I was gonna ask you on that, you know, in the world of generative AI, where that's becoming more and more of a thing, and in the app, the appetite for sort of generating or producing that test data is the premise that because I've heard some argue, wait, generative AI actually helps me to overcome and avoid some of the bias issues, but it sounds like you might be proposing just the opposite. Elizabeth It actually works both ways. So um, so creating synthetic data can really help when you want to avoid data bias, and you don't have enough production data to, to do that well. And so you can do, you can, you can do that in a number of different ways. data augmentation is one way so taking your original data and say, flipping it, or changing the colors in it, etc. So taking an original dataset and trying to make it more diverse and kind of cover more cases than you maybe would originally to make your model more robust. Another another kind of way of doing that is synthetic data creation. So an example there would be, you have a 3d environment, in one of these, you know, game engine type things like Unreal or blender, you know, there's, there's a few, and you have, say, I want to detect something, and it's usually in a residential setting, right. So you can have a whole environment of different, you know, housing types, and it would be really hard to get that data, you know, without having generated it, right, because you don't have cameras in everybody's houses, right. So in those cases, what we encourage is, pilots, so you before, really, you know, deploying this thing, and, and letting it free in the world, you you use that synthetic data, but then you make sure that you're piloting that in your set in your real world setting as long as possible to, you know, sets out any issues that you might come across. Grant So let's go back to that first example you shared where you got the crosswalk, you have the pedestrians, and now you need to make sure you've got different poses, like you said, someone you know, sitting down on the road or laying on the rug, certainly using generative AI to create different postures of those. But But what about, hey, if the introduction, is something brand new, such as, like you said, the wheelchair or some other sort of foreign object? Is the generative AI going to help you solve for that? Or do you need to you need to lead lead it a bit? Elizabeth It absolutely can. Right? So yeah, it's, it's basically anything that you can model in a 3d environment. And so you can definitely model someone in a wheelchair in a 3d environment. And, and Tesla uses this method really often because it's hard to simulate every kind of crash scenario, right? I mean, sorry, it's hard to have real data from every kind of crash scenario. And so they're trying to model again, they're trying to model their problem as robustly as possible. And so in some of those cases, they are like, you know, all of these types of things could happen, let's get more data around that the most efficient, and kind of most possible way of doing that is with synthetic data. Grant Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So that's a key approach for addressing the this bias problem. Are there any other techniques besides this generative, you know, training data approach? What else could you use to overcome the bias? Elizabeth Yeah, so. So another type kind of is when you have, like I was saying a mismatch in test and production data. So a lot of people even you know, computer vision, people sometimes don't know how much this matters. When it's things like, for example, working with a live video. So in those cases, bitrate matters, FPS matters, your resizing algorithm and your image encoding. And so you'll have, in many cases, you're collecting data in the first place for your test data differently than it's going to run in production. And people can forget about that. And so this is a place where, you know, having a platform like plain sight, can really help because that process is standardized, right? So the way you're pulling in that data, that is the same data that you're labeling, and it's the same data that you're, then you know, inferencing on, because you're pulling live data from those cameras, and it's all it's all managed in one place and to end. So that's, that's another strategy. And another thing that happens is when there are researchers that will be working on a model for like, two years, right, and they have this corpus of test data, but something happens in the meantime, right? So it's like, phone imaging has advanced in those in that time, so then your your input is a little different, or like the factory that they were trying to model, the the floor layout changed, right. And they didn't totally realize that the model had somewhat memorized that floor layout. And so you'll get these problems where you have this, you know, what you think is a really robust model, you drop it into production, and you don't know you have a problem until you drop it into production. So that's another reason that we really emphasize having pilots, and then also having a lot of different perspectives on vetting those pilots, right. So you, ideally, you can find a subject matter expert in the area outside of your company to, you know, take take a look at your data and what's coming out of it. And you have kind of a group of people really thinking deeply about, you know, the consistency of your data, how you're modeling your problem, and making sure that kind of all of those, all of those things are covered? Grant Well, in reducing cycle time from this initial set of training, to, to sort of validation of that pilot is crucial to this because as you're pointing out, even even if you even if you keep that cycle time short, and you do lots of iterations on it, some assumptions may change. How do you help? How to me what's the techniques for, you know, keeping someone looking at those assumptions? Like you said, maybe it's a change in camera phone technology, or it's a change of the layout? Like I said, as technology people, Einsteins we get so focused on oh, we're just pushing towards the solution, we sort of forget that part. How do you how do you get someone? Is that just a cultural thing? Is it a AI engineering thing, that someone's got a, you know, a role in the process? To do that? Elizabeth I think it's both. So I think the first thing is organizations really need to think deeply about their process for computer vision and AI. Right. And, and some of the things that I've already mentioned, need to be part of that process, right? So you want to research your users in advance, or your use cases in advance and try to think through that full Problem Set holistically. You want to you want to be really, really clear about your labeling, right? So you can introduce bias, just through your labeling process if humans themselves are introducing it, right? Exactly. If you have some people labeling something a little bit differently than other people. So like on the edge of an image, if you have a person on the edge, do you count that as a person? Or is it or you know, or as another person? Or is it not counted? How far in the view do they have to be? So there's, there's all a lot of gray area where you really just need to be very familiar with your data. And, and be really clear, as a company on how you're going to process that. Grant So this labeling boundaries, but then backing up, there's the label ontology or taxonomy itself, right, which is, yeah, that itself could just be introducing bias also, right. Elizabeth Yeah. And then back to kind of what we're saying about how to ensure how to really think through some of these problems, is you can also make sure that that as a as a company, you have a process where you, you have multi passes, multiple passes on, on that annotated data, and then multiple passes on the actual inference data, right. So you have a process where you're really checking. Another thing that we've talked about internally, recently is you know, we have a pipeline for deploying your computer vision. And one of the things that can be really, really important in a lot of these cases is making sure that there is a human in the loop that there is some human supervision. To make sure that you're, you're, again, you weren't servicing bias that you didn't under your you didn't anticipate, or your your model hasn't drifted over time, things like that. And so something we've considered is being able to kick off just in that process, have it built in that you can kick off a human, like a task for a person, right? So it's, it's just built in. Grant And so it no matter what you do that thing is this, it's just as a governance function, is that what you're getting? Elizabeth Kind of so it's like, it's like a processing pipeline for your data. And, and so you can have things like, Alright, at this step, I'm gonna augment my data, and at this step, I'm gonna, you know, run an inference on it, or flip it or whatever it is, right? And so, in that you could make sure that you kick off a task for a human to check, right, or, or whatever the case may be. Yep. Yep. So there's several good, so good process maturity, is another technique for how do we help overcome bias as well as inaccurate models? And I'm assuming you're, you're almost bundling both of those into that right? In Yeah, both right. And, and like you said, they're the another way is reducing that time, and also making sure that you're working on production data whenever possible. So reducing the this, this is where the platform can help as well. Because when you you know, you aren't off in research land, without production data for two years, but you have a system where it makes it really easy to connect cameras, and just work on on real production data, then two things, you're, you're reducing the time that it takes to kind of go full circle on on labeling and training and testing. And then also you you have it all in one place. And that's that's one of the problems that we solve, right? Because, in many cases, computer vision engineers or, or data scientists, they're kind of working on the they don't have the full pipeline to work on the problem. So they have this test dataset, and they're working on it somewhat separately from where it will be deployed in production. And so we try to join those two things. Grant Yeah, I think that's one of the real strengths of the platform of your platform, the plain side platform is this reduction of the cycle, so that I can actually be testing and validating against production scenarios, and then take that feedback. And then augmenting that with the great governance processes you talked about. Both of those are critical. Let's let's talk a little bit and talk about fraud is, you know, certainly in this in computer vision, holy smokes, fraud has been probably one of the key areas that, you know, the bad guys have gone after, right? All right, what what can you do to overcome this and deal with this? Elizabeth You know, it can really become a cat and mouse game. And I think the conversation about fraud boils down to, it's not clear, it boils down to is it better than the alternative? Right? So it's not clear that just because there could be some fraud in the computer vision solution, it may or may not be true that there could be more fraud and another solution, right. So so the example is, technically, you used to be able to and I think with some phones, you still can 3d print a face to defraud your facial detection to unlock your phone. Yeah. And there is and so then they've, you know, done a lot of things, advancements, so this is harder to do, which, like there's a liveliness detector, I think they use their eyes, your eyes for that. And then you know, there's a few but you could still use a mask. So again, it's it's this cat and mouse game. And another place is is you know, there are models that can understand text to speech. And then there are models that you can put on top of that, that can make that speech sound like other voices, right? So the the big category here is deep fakes. But it's, you know, you can you can make your voice sound like someone else's voice. And there are banks and other things like that, that use voice as a as a method for authentication. Right, right. Grant I'm sure I'm sure we've all seen the the Google duplex demo or scenarios right. says a few years from now, right? I mean, that technology obviously continues to mature. Elizabeth Exactly. And so, so then the question is Okay, if I can 3d print a face and or a mask and unlock someone's phone, is that is that is that harder than actually someone just finding my, you know, four to six digit phone, you know, numerical code to unlock my phone. So, you know, so I think there it really becomes a balance of which thing is is harder to defraud and in fraud in general, you know, if you think about cybersecurity, and, and everywhere that you're trying to combat this, it's a it's a cat and mouse game, right? People are getting, you know, people are figure out the vulnerabilities in what exists and then and then people have to get better at defending it. So well. So the argument is, if I if I can say back to the argument is, yeah, it exists. But hey, how's this different from so many other technologies or techniques, where again, you got fraudsters trying to break in? This is just part of the business today? Right. That's where it is? Grant Yeah, I think it becomes a, an evaluation of is it? Does it cause more or less of a fraud problem? And then it's, it's really just about evaluating the use of technology on an even plane? Right. So it's not it's not about should you use AI? Because it causes fraud? It's should you use any particular method or technology because there's a fraud issue and what's gonna cause the least fraud? Right, a more specific use case? Elizabeth Yeah. Grant Yep. Okay, so So fraud. So, uh, you and I had talked about some potential techniques out there. Like there's a Facebook Instagram technology algorithm. Right. I think it's called seer. I think it came out not too long ago. It's a it's an ultra large vision model. It takes in more than a billion variables. P believe that. That's, that's a lot. A lot of massive. I mean, I've built some AI models, but not with a billion. That's incredible. So are you familiar with that? Have you looked into that at all SEER itself? Elizabeth Yeah, so So this, basically, this method where you can look, basically to try to address bias through distorting of images? Yeah, yeah. So I can give you a good example of something that actually we've worked on, I'm going to chase change the case a little bit to kind of anonymize it. But so in a lab setting, we were working on some special imaging to detect whether there was a bacteria in, in in samples, or not, right. And in this case, we were collecting samples from many labs across the country. And one thing that could be different in them was the color of kind of the substrate that the sample was just in, it was essentially a preservative. Wow. And so but but those, there are a few different colors. And they were used kind of widely. And so it wasn't generally thought that, you know, this would be a problem. But so the model was built and all the data was processed. And there was a really high accuracy. But what happened, and what they found out was that the, there was a correlation with the color and whether the bacteria was present or not. And it was just a kind of a chance correlation, right. But if you had had something like that, that image distortion, so if you took the color out automatically, or you mess with the color, then that would have taken that bias out of that model. And then as a second thing happened, actually, which was when the, the the people in the lab, were taking the samples out of the freezer, they would take all of them at once. And they were just kind of bordered. And so they would do all of the positives first and all of the negative second. And machine learning is just it's a really amazing pattern detector, right? Like that is that is what it is about. Yeah. And so again, they were finding a correlation just between the weather it was hot, more thawed or not. And that was correlating with whether it was positive or not. So, you know, some of this really comes back to what you learn in science fair and putting together a really Your robust scientific method and making sure you're handling all of your very variables really carefully. And, and, and, and clearly and you know what's going into your model. And you can control for that as much as possible. So, so yeah, that I mean that Facebook method is, can be really valuable in a lot of cases to suss out some of these correlations that you may just not know are there. Grant Yeah, I think what's cool is they open source that right, I think it's called swag SwaaV. Yeah. Which is awesome. The they figured that out and made that open source so that obviously, the larger community needs something like this course help deal with some of this, this bias challenge. Interesting. Okay, that's cool. So all right. I was I was I really wanted to ask you about your thoughts on that approach. So I'm glad to hear you validate that. Elizabeth Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, there really has to be a process, especially in a in a model like that, where you try to break it in any possible way that you can, right, there has to be a whole separate process where you think through any variable that there could be and so if there's a model that's, that has, you know, so many just out of the box, that's a really good, great place to start. Grant Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Okay. And then the last category here, around ethical violations, any thoughts on that? Elizabeth Addressing that overcoming that, you know, I think that really just comes down to when you need permission to be doing something, I need to make sure that you're doing it right, or you're getting it. And that, you know, obviously that happens in cases where there's facial recognition and making sure that people know that that's going on, and that's similar to being kind of videotaped at all right. And so that one's fairly straightforward. But sometimes people need to, you know, when you're putting together your ethics position, you need to make sure that you're really remembering that that's there. And you're checking every single time that you don't have an issue. Grant Yeah, permissions. And there's this notion, I'll come up with a term that feels like permission creep, right. It's called scope, right? It's like, well, you may have gotten permission to do this part of it. But you kind of find yourself also using the data stuff over here right to maybe solve other other problems, and that that's a problem in some some people's minds for sure. I was very good point. Yeah, various articles, people out there talk about that part of it sort of creeping along, and how do you help ensure that what it is I gave you the data for what we're using it for? Is just for its, you know, you know, permitted intended purpose, right? That was a challenge for sure. Okay, so you've been more than fair with your time here today with us, Elizabeth, gay, dry, any conclusions? What's the top secret answer to the overcoming the four pitfalls here of AI ethical? Elizabeth So one thing I have to add, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about data bias without talking about data diversity in data balance, right. And so, you know, obviously, the, the simple example there is fruit. So if you are looking at if you have a dataset with seven apples, one banana, and seven oranges, it's going to be worse at detecting the banana. But the more real world example that happens is in hospitals, right? So they, in the healthcare system, in general, we have a problem with being able to share data, even even anonymized data. So when a hospital is doing is building a model, there have been problems where a can be they, they have bias in their dataset, right. So in in a certain location, you can have something like if you're coming in with a cough in one area, it may be most likely that you have a cold, cold, but in another area, it may be more accurate to start evaluating for asthma, right. Grant So that kind of thing can come up so it if you if you take a model that's done in one hospital and try to apply it elsewhere, then again, that's a place where you can visit, is that kind of like a form of confirmation bias, meaning, you know, you have the same symptom, but you come into two different parts of the hospital and, well, this person's coughing and you know, you're in the respiratory area. So they immediately think it's one thing but now you go to another part of the hospital. Well, yeah, a cough is a symptom for that to suddenly you know, that's what they think you have. Elizabeth That's a great point. It really it's sort of the machine learning version. that? Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's a confirmation bias sort of view. It's like yeah, oh, this is, uh, but it how many variables does it take for you to actually have true confirmation? Right? But with this example from Facebook a billion, but how many do you need to have? Elizabeth I think it's really it's less about the variables. And it's more about your data balance and making sure that you're training on the same data that's going to be used in production. So it you know, it's less of a problem, if you are, you know, only deploying that model at one hospital. But if you want to deploy it elsewhere, you need data from everywhere, right? Or, or wherever you're, you're planning to deploy it. So So again, it really comes back to that data balance and making sure your test data and your production data are kind of in line. Grant Are there any of these ethical biases we've talked about that are not solvable? Elizabeth Um, that's a good question. I think Ah, maybe dancer, are you? Are you running? I think there are definitely some that can be really hard. So, so something that we touched on, you talked about, you know, is there inherently a, are our supervised models more inherently more biased than unsupervised? And like, the answer there is, is probably yes. Because you're T you're a human is explicitly teaching a model what's important in that image? And so you know, that that thing can be exactly what you're looking for. Right? You want to make sure there's not a safety issue or whatever it is. But, but, but just it's a human process. So there can be things there that you don't catch. Grant Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's been a question on my mind for a while, which is the implicit impact of bias on supervised versus non supervisory, or work with another group called Aible, have you run into Aible, they're one of the AutoML providers out there. And more on sort of the predictive analytics side of AI, right. They're not doing anything with with computer vision, they have this capability, where they'll look at, but it's always supervised data, but what they're trying to the problem you're trying to solve is, okay, you got a lot of data. Just give me tone, give me signal. In other words, before I spend too much time, trying to, you know, do some training and guiding the model, just do a quick look into that data set and tell me, is there any toner signal where these particular supervised elements, they can draw early correlation to outcome or predictive capabilities. And the idea is that as the world of data keeps getting larger and larger, our time as humans doesn't keep getting larger and larger. So we need to reduce what's the total set of stuff we're looking at, dismiss these other pieces, they're irrelevant to, you know, being predictive. And then you can focus on the things that are important. Anything like that in the computer vision world? Elizabeth So So I was thinking I was trying so unsupervised learning is less common in, in computer vision. But, but, but one of the things that can happen is just the data that exists in the world is bias. Right? So So an example is say you want to predict what a human might do at any one time. And you want to use an unsupervised method for that. So say you want to scrape the internet of videos. If you look at the videos on YouTube, the videos that people upload are inherently biased. So if you look at security view videos, they're like, almost all fights, right. So your model, because that's what humans think, is interesting. And as you know, uploaded it in a security video. And so I mean, not almost all but a lot of Yeah, yeah, he's inherently what humans think are interesting. And so there are places like that where just inherently your data set is kind of biased because we're human. So So again, it's another place that you have to be pretty careful. Grant Yeah. Okay, so sounds like the problems are I'm gonna say I'm doing Air quotes. These are solvable, but it takes some discipline and rigor. Elizabeth Yeah, okay. And and it's just so important for organizations to kind of sit down and really think through their, their ethical use of of AI and how they're going to approach that and get a policy together and make sure they're really kind of living those policies. Grant Excellent. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Any parting shots? Elizabeth Um, no, I think I appreciate you having me on. That was a really fun conversation. And yeah, I always enjoy chatting with you. Grant Likewise, Elizabeth, thank you for your time. Thank you everyone for joining and this episode. Until next time, get some ethics for your AI. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

Grant Welcome everybody. In this episode, we take a look at the four pitfalls to AI ethics and are they solvable? Okay, hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So glad to have in the house today Plainsight AI. What a privilege. Elizabeth Spears with us here today. Hi, Elizabeth. Elizabeth Hey, Grant. Thanks for having me back. Grant Thanks for coming back. You know, when we were talking last time, you threw out this wonderful topic around pitfalls around AI ethics. And it's such a common sort of drop phrase, everyone's like, oh, there's ethics issues around AI. Let's, let's shy away from it. Therefore, it's got a problem, right? And I loved how you came back. And it was after our episode, it's like he pulled me aside in the hallway. Metaphorically like "Grant, let's have a topic on the pitfalls around these some of these ethical topics here". So I, you hooked me I was like, Oh, perfect. That's, that's a wonderful idea with that. Elizabeth So typically, I think there's, there's so many sort of high level conversations about ethics and AI, but, but I feel like we don't dig into the details very often of kind of when that happens, and how to deal with it. And like you said, it's kind of the common pitfalls. Grant It is. And, you know, it's interesting is the, in the AI world in particular, it seems like so many of the ethical arguments come up around the image, style of AI, right, you know, ways in which people have misused or abused AI, right for either bad use cases or other sort of secret or bad approaches. So this is like you are the perfect person to talk about this and, and cast the dagger in the heart of some of these mythical ethical things, or maybe not right. All right. Oh, yeah. Alright, so let's talk through some of these. So common pitfalls. So there were four areas that you and I sort of bantered about, he came back he said, Okay, let's talk about bias. Let's talk about inaccuracy in models, a bit about fraud, and then perhaps something around legal or ethical consent violations. Those were four that we started with, we don't have to stay on those. But let's tee up bias. Let's talk about ethical problems around bias. All right. Elizabeth So I mean, there's really there's several types of bias. And, and often the biased and inaccuracies can kind of conflate because they can sort of cause each other. But we have I have some examples of of both. And then again, somewhere, some where it's it's really biased and inaccuracies that are happening. But one example or one type is not modeling your problem correctly, and in particular, to simply so I'll start with the example. So you want to detect safety in a crosswalk, right, relatively simple kind of thing. And, and you want to make sure that no one is sitting in this crosswalk. Because that would be now generally be a problem. It's a problem. So, so you do body pose detection, right? And if you aren't thinking about this problem holistically, you say, All right, I'm going to do sitting versus standing. Now the problem with that is what about a person in a wheelchair? So then you would be detecting kind of a perceived problem because you think someone sitting in the middle of a crosswalk but but it's really just about accurately defining that problem. And then and then making sure that's reflected in your labeling process. And and that kind of flows. into another whole set of problems, which is when your test data and your kind of labeling process are a mismatch with your production environment. So one of the things that we really encourage for our customers is, is collecting as much production close as close to possible, or ideally just production data that you'll be running your models on, instead of having sort of these very different test data sets that then you'll then you'll kind of deploy into production. And there can be these mismatches. And sometimes that's a really difficult thing to accomplish. Grant Yeah, so I was gonna ask you on that, you know, in the world of generative AI, where that's becoming more and more of a thing, and in the app, the appetite for sort of generating or producing that test data is the premise that because I've heard some argue, wait, generative AI actually helps me to overcome and avoid some of the bias issues, but it sounds like you might be proposing just the opposite. Elizabeth It actually works both ways. So um, so creating synthetic data can really help when you want to avoid data bias, and you don't have enough production data to, to do that well. And so you can do, you can, you can do that in a number of different ways. data augmentation is one way so taking your original data and say, flipping it, or changing the colors in it, etc. So taking an original dataset and trying to make it more diverse and kind of cover more cases than you maybe would originally to make your model more robust. Another another kind of way of doing that is synthetic data creation. So an example there would be, you have a 3d environment, in one of these, you know, game engine type things like Unreal or blender, you know, there's, there's a few, and you have, say, I want to detect something, and it's usually in a residential setting, right. So you can have a whole environment of different, you know, housing types, and it would be really hard to get that data, you know, without having generated it, right, because you don't have cameras in everybody's houses, right. So in those cases, what we encourage is, pilots, so you before, really, you know, deploying this thing, and, and letting it free in the world, you you use that synthetic data, but then you make sure that you're piloting that in your set in your real world setting as long as possible to, you know, sets out any issues that you might come across. Grant So let's go back to that first example you shared where you got the crosswalk, you have the pedestrians, and now you need to make sure you've got different poses, like you said, someone you know, sitting down on the road or laying on the rug, certainly using generative AI to create different postures of those. But But what about, hey, if the introduction, is something brand new, such as, like you said, the wheelchair or some other sort of foreign object? Is the generative AI going to help you solve for that? Or do you need to you need to lead lead it a bit? Elizabeth It absolutely can. Right? So yeah, it's, it's basically anything that you can model in a 3d environment. And so you can definitely model someone in a wheelchair in a 3d environment. And, and Tesla uses this method really often because it's hard to simulate every kind of crash scenario, right? I mean, sorry, it's hard to have real data from every kind of crash scenario. And so they're trying to model again, they're trying to model their problem as robustly as possible. And so in some of those cases, they are like, you know, all of these types of things could happen, let's get more data around that the most efficient, and kind of most possible way of doing that is with synthetic data. Grant Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So that's a key approach for addressing the this bias problem. Are there any other techniques besides this generative, you know, training data approach? What else could you use to overcome the bias? Elizabeth Yeah, so. So another type kind of is when you have, like I was saying a mismatch in test and production data. So a lot of people even you know, computer vision, people sometimes don't know how much this matters. When it's things like, for example, working with a live video. So in those cases, bitrate matters, FPS matters, your resizing algorithm and your image encoding. And so you'll have, in many cases, you're collecting data in the first place for your test data differently than it's going to run in production. And people can forget about that. And so this is a place where, you know, having a platform like plain sight, can really help because that process is standardized, right? So the way you're pulling in that data, that is the same data that you're labeling, and it's the same data that you're, then you know, inferencing on, because you're pulling live data from those cameras, and it's all it's all managed in one place and to end. So that's, that's another strategy. And another thing that happens is when there are researchers that will be working on a model for like, two years, right, and they have this corpus of test data, but something happens in the meantime, right? So it's like, phone imaging has advanced in those in that time, so then your your input is a little different, or like the factory that they were trying to model, the the floor layout changed, right. And they didn't totally realize that the model had somewhat memorized that floor layout. And so you'll get these problems where you have this, you know, what you think is a really robust model, you drop it into production, and you don't know you have a problem until you drop it into production. So that's another reason that we really emphasize having pilots, and then also having a lot of different perspectives on vetting those pilots, right. So you, ideally, you can find a subject matter expert in the area outside of your company to, you know, take take a look at your data and what's coming out of it. And you have kind of a group of people really thinking deeply about, you know, the consistency of your data, how you're modeling your problem, and making sure that kind of all of those, all of those things are covered? Grant Well, in reducing cycle time from this initial set of training, to, to sort of validation of that pilot is crucial to this because as you're pointing out, even even if you even if you keep that cycle time short, and you do lots of iterations on it, some assumptions may change. How do you help? How to me what's the techniques for, you know, keeping someone looking at those assumptions? Like you said, maybe it's a change in camera phone technology, or it's a change of the layout? Like I said, as technology people, Einsteins we get so focused on oh, we're just pushing towards the solution, we sort of forget that part. How do you how do you get someone? Is that just a cultural thing? Is it a AI engineering thing, that someone's got a, you know, a role in the process? To do that? Elizabeth I think it's both. So I think the first thing is organizations really need to think deeply about their process for computer vision and AI. Right. And, and some of the things that I've already mentioned, need to be part of that process, right? So you want to research your users in advance, or your use cases in advance and try to think through that full Problem Set holistically. You want to you want to be really, really clear about your labeling, right? So you can introduce bias, just through your labeling process if humans themselves are introducing it, right? Exactly. If you have some people labeling something a little bit differently than other people. So like on the edge of an image, if you have a person on the edge, do you count that as a person? Or is it or you know, or as another person? Or is it not counted? How far in the view do they have to be? So there's, there's all a lot of gray area where you really just need to be very familiar with your data. And, and be really clear, as a company on how you're going to process that. Grant So this labeling boundaries, but then backing up, there's the label ontology or taxonomy itself, right, which is, yeah, that itself could just be introducing bias also, right. Elizabeth Yeah. And then back to kind of what we're saying about how to ensure how to really think through some of these problems, is you can also make sure that that as a as a company, you have a process where you, you have multi passes, multiple passes on, on that annotated data, and then multiple passes on the actual inference data, right. So you have a process where you're really checking. Another thing that we've talked about internally, recently is you know, we have a pipeline for deploying your computer vision. And one of the things that can be really, really important in a lot of these cases is making sure that there is a human in the loop that there is some human supervision. To make sure that you're, you're, again, you weren't servicing bias that you didn't under your you didn't anticipate, or your your model hasn't drifted over time, things like that. And so something we've considered is being able to kick off just in that process, have it built in that you can kick off a human, like a task for a person, right? So it's, it's just built in. Grant And so it no matter what you do that thing is this, it's just as a governance function, is that what you're getting? Elizabeth Kind of so it's like, it's like a processing pipeline for your data. And, and so you can have things like, Alright, at this step, I'm gonna augment my data, and at this step, I'm gonna, you know, run an inference on it, or flip it or whatever it is, right? And so, in that you could make sure that you kick off a task for a human to check, right, or, or whatever the case may be. Yep. Yep. So there's several good, so good process maturity, is another technique for how do we help overcome bias as well as inaccurate models? And I'm assuming you're, you're almost bundling both of those into that right? In Yeah, both right. And, and like you said, they're the another way is reducing that time, and also making sure that you're working on production data whenever possible. So reducing the this, this is where the platform can help as well. Because when you you know, you aren't off in research land, without production data for two years, but you have a system where it makes it really easy to connect cameras, and just work on on real production data, then two things, you're, you're reducing the time that it takes to kind of go full circle on on labeling and training and testing. And then also you you have it all in one place. And that's that's one of the problems that we solve, right? Because, in many cases, computer vision engineers or, or data scientists, they're kind of working on the they don't have the full pipeline to work on the problem. So they have this test dataset, and they're working on it somewhat separately from where it will be deployed in production. And so we try to join those two things. Grant Yeah, I think that's one of the real strengths of the platform of your platform, the plain side platform is this reduction of the cycle, so that I can actually be testing and validating against production scenarios, and then take that feedback. And then augmenting that with the great governance processes you talked about. Both of those are critical. Let's let's talk a little bit and talk about fraud is, you know, certainly in this in computer vision, holy smokes, fraud has been probably one of the key areas that, you know, the bad guys have gone after, right? All right, what what can you do to overcome this and deal with this? Elizabeth You know, it can really become a cat and mouse game. And I think the conversation about fraud boils down to, it's not clear, it boils down to is it better than the alternative? Right? So it's not clear that just because there could be some fraud in the computer vision solution, it may or may not be true that there could be more fraud and another solution, right. So so the example is, technically, you used to be able to and I think with some phones, you still can 3d print a face to defraud your facial detection to unlock your phone. Yeah. And there is and so then they've, you know, done a lot of things, advancements, so this is harder to do, which, like there's a liveliness detector, I think they use their eyes, your eyes for that. And then you know, there's a few but you could still use a mask. So again, it's it's this cat and mouse game. And another place is is you know, there are models that can understand text to speech. And then there are models that you can put on top of that, that can make that speech sound like other voices, right? So the the big category here is deep fakes. But it's, you know, you can you can make your voice sound like someone else's voice. And there are banks and other things like that, that use voice as a as a method for authentication. Right, right. Grant I'm sure I'm sure we've all seen the the Google duplex demo or scenarios right. says a few years from now, right? I mean, that technology obviously continues to mature. Elizabeth Exactly. And so, so then the question is Okay, if I can 3d print a face and or a mask and unlock someone's phone, is that is that is that harder than actually someone just finding my, you know, four to six digit phone, you know, numerical code to unlock my phone. So, you know, so I think there it really becomes a balance of which thing is is harder to defraud and in fraud in general, you know, if you think about cybersecurity, and, and everywhere that you're trying to combat this, it's a it's a cat and mouse game, right? People are getting, you know, people are figure out the vulnerabilities in what exists and then and then people have to get better at defending it. So well. So the argument is, if I if I can say back to the argument is, yeah, it exists. But hey, how's this different from so many other technologies or techniques, where again, you got fraudsters trying to break in? This is just part of the business today? Right. That's where it is? Grant Yeah, I think it becomes a, an evaluation of is it? Does it cause more or less of a fraud problem? And then it's, it's really just about evaluating the use of technology on an even plane? Right. So it's not it's not about should you use AI? Because it causes fraud? It's should you use any particular method or technology because there's a fraud issue and what's gonna cause the least fraud? Right, a more specific use case? Elizabeth Yeah. Grant Yep. Okay, so So fraud. So, uh, you and I had talked about some potential techniques out there. Like there's a Facebook Instagram technology algorithm. Right. I think it's called seer. I think it came out not too long ago. It's a it's an ultra large vision model. It takes in more than a billion variables. P believe that. That's, that's a lot. A lot of massive. I mean, I've built some AI models, but not with a billion. That's incredible. So are you familiar with that? Have you looked into that at all SEER itself? Elizabeth Yeah, so So this, basically, this method where you can look, basically to try to address bias through distorting of images? Yeah, yeah. So I can give you a good example of something that actually we've worked on, I'm going to chase change the case a little bit to kind of anonymize it. But so in a lab setting, we were working on some special imaging to detect whether there was a bacteria in, in in samples, or not, right. And in this case, we were collecting samples from many labs across the country. And one thing that could be different in them was the color of kind of the substrate that the sample was just in, it was essentially a preservative. Wow. And so but but those, there are a few different colors. And they were used kind of widely. And so it wasn't generally thought that, you know, this would be a problem. But so the model was built and all the data was processed. And there was a really high accuracy. But what happened, and what they found out was that the, there was a correlation with the color and whether the bacteria was present or not. And it was just a kind of a chance correlation, right. But if you had had something like that, that image distortion, so if you took the color out automatically, or you mess with the color, then that would have taken that bias out of that model. And then as a second thing happened, actually, which was when the, the the people in the lab, were taking the samples out of the freezer, they would take all of them at once. And they were just kind of bordered. And so they would do all of the positives first and all of the negative second. And machine learning is just it's a really amazing pattern detector, right? Like that is that is what it is about. Yeah. And so again, they were finding a correlation just between the weather it was hot, more thawed or not. And that was correlating with whether it was positive or not. So, you know, some of this really comes back to what you learn in science fair and putting together a really Your robust scientific method and making sure you're handling all of your very variables really carefully. And, and, and, and clearly and you know what's going into your model. And you can control for that as much as possible. So, so yeah, that I mean that Facebook method is, can be really valuable in a lot of cases to suss out some of these correlations that you may just not know are there. Grant Yeah, I think what's cool is they open source that right, I think it's called swag SwaaV. Yeah. Which is awesome. The they figured that out and made that open source so that obviously, the larger community needs something like this course help deal with some of this, this bias challenge. Interesting. Okay, that's cool. So all right. I was I was I really wanted to ask you about your thoughts on that approach. So I'm glad to hear you validate that. Elizabeth Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, there really has to be a process, especially in a in a model like that, where you try to break it in any possible way that you can, right, there has to be a whole separate process where you think through any variable that there could be and so if there's a model that's, that has, you know, so many just out of the box, that's a really good, great place to start. Grant Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Okay. And then the last category here, around ethical violations, any thoughts on that? Elizabeth Addressing that overcoming that, you know, I think that really just comes down to when you need permission to be doing something, I need to make sure that you're doing it right, or you're getting it. And that, you know, obviously that happens in cases where there's facial recognition and making sure that people know that that's going on, and that's similar to being kind of videotaped at all right. And so that one's fairly straightforward. But sometimes people need to, you know, when you're putting together your ethics position, you need to make sure that you're really remembering that that's there. And you're checking every single time that you don't have an issue. Grant Yeah, permissions. And there's this notion, I'll come up with a term that feels like permission creep, right. It's called scope, right? It's like, well, you may have gotten permission to do this part of it. But you kind of find yourself also using the data stuff over here right to maybe solve other other problems, and that that's a problem in some some people's minds for sure. I was very good point. Yeah, various articles, people out there talk about that part of it sort of creeping along, and how do you help ensure that what it is I gave you the data for what we're using it for? Is just for its, you know, you know, permitted intended purpose, right? That was a challenge for sure. Okay, so you've been more than fair with your time here today with us, Elizabeth, gay, dry, any conclusions? What's the top secret answer to the overcoming the four pitfalls here of AI ethical? Elizabeth So one thing I have to add, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about data bias without talking about data diversity in data balance, right. And so, you know, obviously, the, the simple example there is fruit. So if you are looking at if you have a dataset with seven apples, one banana, and seven oranges, it's going to be worse at detecting the banana. But the more real world example that happens is in hospitals, right? So they, in the healthcare system, in general, we have a problem with being able to share data, even even anonymized data. So when a hospital is doing is building a model, there have been problems where a can be they, they have bias in their dataset, right. So in in a certain location, you can have something like if you're coming in with a cough in one area, it may be most likely that you have a cold, cold, but in another area, it may be more accurate to start evaluating for asthma, right. Grant So that kind of thing can come up so it if you if you take a model that's done in one hospital and try to apply it elsewhere, then again, that's a place where you can visit, is that kind of like a form of confirmation bias, meaning, you know, you have the same symptom, but you come into two different parts of the hospital and, well, this person's coughing and you know, you're in the respiratory area. So they immediately think it's one thing but now you go to another part of the hospital. Well, yeah, a cough is a symptom for that to suddenly you know, that's what they think you have. Elizabeth That's a great point. It really it's sort of the machine learning version. that? Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's a confirmation bias sort of view. It's like yeah, oh, this is, uh, but it how many variables does it take for you to actually have true confirmation? Right? But with this example from Facebook a billion, but how many do you need to have? Elizabeth I think it's really it's less about the variables. And it's more about your data balance and making sure that you're training on the same data that's going to be used in production. So it you know, it's less of a problem, if you are, you know, only deploying that model at one hospital. But if you want to deploy it elsewhere, you need data from everywhere, right? Or, or wherever you're, you're planning to deploy it. So So again, it really comes back to that data balance and making sure your test data and your production data are kind of in line. Grant Are there any of these ethical biases we've talked about that are not solvable? Elizabeth Um, that's a good question. I think Ah, maybe dancer, are you? Are you running? I think there are definitely some that can be really hard. So, so something that we touched on, you talked about, you know, is there inherently a, are our supervised models more inherently more biased than unsupervised? And like, the answer there is, is probably yes. Because you're T you're a human is explicitly teaching a model what's important in that image? And so you know, that that thing can be exactly what you're looking for. Right? You want to make sure there's not a safety issue or whatever it is. But, but, but just it's a human process. So there can be things there that you don't catch. Grant Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's been a question on my mind for a while, which is the implicit impact of bias on supervised versus non supervisory, or work with another group called Aible, have you run into Aible, they're one of the AutoML providers out there. And more on sort of the predictive analytics side of AI, right. They're not doing anything with with computer vision, they have this capability, where they'll look at, but it's always supervised data, but what they're trying to the problem you're trying to solve is, okay, you got a lot of data. Just give me tone, give me signal. In other words, before I spend too much time, trying to, you know, do some training and guiding the model, just do a quick look into that data set and tell me, is there any toner signal where these particular supervised elements, they can draw early correlation to outcome or predictive capabilities. And the idea is that as the world of data keeps getting larger and larger, our time as humans doesn't keep getting larger and larger. So we need to reduce what's the total set of stuff we're looking at, dismiss these other pieces, they're irrelevant to, you know, being predictive. And then you can focus on the things that are important. Anything like that in the computer vision world? Elizabeth So So I was thinking I was trying so unsupervised learning is less common in, in computer vision. But, but, but one of the things that can happen is just the data that exists in the world is bias. Right? So So an example is say you want to predict what a human might do at any one time. And you want to use an unsupervised method for that. So say you want to scrape the internet of videos. If you look at the videos on YouTube, the videos that people upload are inherently biased. So if you look at security view videos, they're like, almost all fights, right. So your model, because that's what humans think, is interesting. And as you know, uploaded it in a security video. And so I mean, not almost all but a lot of Yeah, yeah, he's inherently what humans think are interesting. And so there are places like that where just inherently your data set is kind of biased because we're human. So So again, it's another place that you have to be pretty careful. Grant Yeah. Okay, so sounds like the problems are I'm gonna say I'm doing Air quotes. These are solvable, but it takes some discipline and rigor. Elizabeth Yeah, okay. And and it's just so important for organizations to kind of sit down and really think through their, their ethical use of of AI and how they're going to approach that and get a policy together and make sure they're really kind of living those policies. Grant Excellent. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Any parting shots? Elizabeth Um, no, I think I appreciate you having me on. That was a really fun conversation. And yeah, I always enjoy chatting with you. Grant Likewise, Elizabeth, thank you for your time. Thank you everyone for joining and this episode. Until next time, get some ethics for your AI. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

We have come to the end of Season 1. After the first eighty episodes interviewing amazing people, it is time for your host, Lindsey, to take a break. Learn more in this episode, and we'll catch you next time!   Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold   Season 1 Finale [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey, and I have some news to share with you. So I have over the last year and a half, had the most amazing opportunities to meet and interview some of the coolest people that I have yet to encounter. They are artists and creatives of all kinds. And whether they consider themselves to be professional or hobbyists or somewhere in between, what has made them all so special is their love and appreciation for art and the way that art brings us together and the stories that emerge from it that just make it so very cool. I have really thoroughly enjoyed this opportunity to chat with people and to hear their stories and to allow them another outlet to be creative by being on a podcast. And it's been an amazing outlet for me personally, especially after COVID shut down most of my other artistic endeavors. [00:01:39] This has been an amazing thing for me to be able to do, but I am going to be taking a bit of a break. I don't have a particular timeline in mind right now. I have some big life changes coming up that are super exciting and they will allow me to actually really expand my horizons, expand and grow as a person and then, you know, even explore other artistic endeavors for myself and, or meet other people with other artistic endeavors too. And I'm really excited about this life change, but it is something that's gonna kind of need me to focus a little bit elsewhere for a while. And so I'm not saying that I won't be back, because my hope and plan is to be back at some point. [00:02:29] But at the moment, what I would encourage you to do is first of all, shoot me an email if you have feedback on any of the episodes I've done so far and let me know, what are the things that you enjoy? What's your favorite part? What's your least favorite part? Good, the bad and the ugly. I'm all here for it. I'd love to hear what you have to say. And then in addition to that, I would love if you would listen to all of the back episodes. Each person that I've interviewed has brought really unique perspective on what the arts mean to them personally, as well as their experiences creating and being creative. And it's just such an inspiring group of people that I've had the opportunity to chat with. And I think you'll enjoy each and every one of them. So I would highly encourage you to take some time and go back through the episodes and really listen and, you know, absorb because that's pretty cool. [00:03:30] And I just want to also say, you know, again, this isn't the end, this is only the beginning and I hope it's the only the beginning of your own artistic journey. What a fun opportunity for me to be able to do this and share this with the world and, and hopefully for you as listeners as well. I have appreciated so much every single one of you who has listened to even one episode, because it's meant that art gets to be explored and talked about and demystified again and again and again, and that is an honor to me, and it's a joy to me and I'm grateful. [00:04:07] And I just want to tell each and every one of you that you are important, you matter, and what you bring to the world is beautiful. So thank you so much for listening to Artfully Told and cheers to the future for you, for me, for Artfully Told and for the world, and we will catch you next time. [00:04:34] I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I welcome Erica Johnson! Erica owns her own business providing hair, skin, and makeup services to customers in the Kansas City area and beyond, and she is a prolific artist, always learning and taking courses in new art forms, including photography, metal-smithing, and more. She shares how she can retain hope even when life has thrown her way too many curveballs at her over the last two years, and the ways that art has played a powerful role in her healing journey.   Get in touch with Erica Johnson: www.ericajohnsonhairandmakeup.com Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold   Episode 080 - Erica Johnson [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so very delighted to have as my guest today, Erica Johnson. Erica is an amazing human being first and foremost, absolutely lovely person with so much to share and offer the world. And I'm so excited that she's here, but she is also an amazing artist and has not just dabbled, but become proficient in, many different art forms. And she just brings a wealth of experience and expertise as well as perspective that is so unique. And so, Erica, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to have you. [00:01:14] Erica Johnson: Thank you for having me. [00:01:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background, maybe how you got involved in art in the first place and, you know, kind of where your career has, has led you, if you don't mind. [00:01:30] Erica Johnson: Sure. So basically I do hair and skin for a living. It's something I've always wanted to do. I've always wanted to just sort of make a woman feel beautiful, not just on the outside though, more or less on the inside as well, because we all know beauty fades. And you know I've been doing it since 2009 and it's what started as just me doing like hair and skin. I kind of dabbled into working with models and traveling. And then, you know, years later, I mean, I became self-employed and my business has turned a little more into like a ministry. So I it's, it's really cool to see how God works in my business and how he sends like-minded people too, whether it's the strength in me or me to strengthen them through encouragement from God or just a word of prayer. [00:02:37] And leading up to that I, since 2020 have had just a really hard, hard circumstances obviously with the COVID situation, but I've had significant amount of losses in my life. From February last year, leading up to currently September, this year I've lost 12 people, family and friends. And so with being in support groups and just in different Bible studies I decided to just sort of get my hands into photography and metal- smithing. And so I've been taking a couple of classes, a way just to sort of express my grief, but also make sure it glorifies God. I, I just sort of use art to express my pain, but also what the elements, whether it be scripture inspired or just whatever God leads me to, but I express it through art, if that makes sense. [00:03:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I know, like you've mentioned, you've had quite a bit of loss over the last couple of years, and I'm sure that has informed a lot of your life, of course, but I think it's really interesting that you've chosen to use art as an outlet to express what you need to, what you need to express, but then also that you have chosen to do it informs that have deep meaning for yourself. But then, I think, also could really maybe help other people as they're struggling maybe as well, or just, you know, maybe they're past the struggling, but they're, they're trying to also go through the emotions. And I know, you know, we have talked a lot about how, if you have faith that there is something more and that there is intentionality, you can at least, at least try to wrap your head around the concept of hope. And you're one of the most hopeful people I've ever met. And I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind speaking to that, especially considering that you could have every right to kind of just throw your hands up and be done, but I'd love if you would share more about, you know, your, your reason for being able to be so hopeful, and then also kind of how that's informed some of your work despite the hurt, if you're willing. [00:05:11] Erica Johnson: Sure. I dunno how to describe it the best way, but I can basically go off of just my daily relationship with God and how God has met me exactly where I am, even in the middle of the pain and just-- perfect example of the metal piece in my metal- smithing class, we had to construct like a commemorative vessel and cast a piece that will go inside it. Well, I kind of struggled with commemorative vessel. And I really kept trying to make it go my way and, you know, put a perfect spin on it and just, you know, just trying to figure out where, where do I fit in or just find my way. And it's really interesting. It was back in June. Earlier this year, I decided to drive to the Weston State Park and I had just lost a dear pastor that I valued. And of course my dad's birthday was this particular day. And then my grandma had also passed away. My uncle passed away within the same timeframe. [00:06:34] So as I'm driving to the Weston Park, I just asked God to give me a sign, give me hope to make it through this day. And you know, I see these three crosses on the side of the road anytime I drive, but this particular day, they literally like jumped out at me and I kinda just pondered. I'm like, "Wow. Okay." So as I get to the park, I'm just sitting there just kind of listening to the wind and watching the birds fly around. And I opened my little book that is from my group support book. And as I open it, I'm reading and it literally is speaking straight to my heart's cry about the cross and how without the cross and Jesus dying on the cross, every person that I have lost, there would be no opportunity for me to ever be able to see them again. But because of Jesus dying on the cross, I will get to see them in eternity and they, they won't be sick. There will be no suffering. There will be, you know, they'll just be made new. And constantly over and over again with this little short grief journey, it's been quite the, I mean, it's just, God has been showing me the cross, the cross. And I guess in a way that's, that's where my hope is, is how God has just met me every step of the way. [00:08:10] And even, even, as I said before, with me trying to construct a commemorative vessel piece, making it perfect or trying to go my own way, God has met me in the middle of that and reminded me that nothing is ever perfect. Only Jesus is perfect, who died on the cross and basically like just really strengthening my faith because by nature, I'm naturally a planner. Things do need to go my way. They need to go a certain way, but this faith walk is not that way. It is, that's truly to me what God is showing me. That's what faith is. And if you're so concerned about your plans, you're never going to be open to God's plans that He has for us in. And for me like to trust in God's character, that God's character, one of his character traits that I always cling to is He is good. [00:09:06] So it helps me to be hopeful that even though this is painful, the beauty that God gave us a savior who suffered so much, but that on the cross and left us with the Holy Spirit to guide us and comfort us, that that to me is more hopeful and reassuring. And the fact that literally it's becoming very essential to my life. And just resting in God's promises. I mean, they, they truly have never returned void. If that makes sense. [00:09:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think your perspective is so helpful and beautiful in that way, that, that you are able to take, you know, difficult situations, but still find beauty and hope despite them, or, or even through them, kind of like you said, getting met where you are is really a powerful concept. You don't have to try to be anybody else or be in a different emotional state or anything, you're just --you're you. And that's, that's a beautiful thing too. And so I'm curious, obviously you have had multiple different art forms that you've pursued over the years, which is super cool. Was photography and also metalworking-- where those always interests of yours or did they kind of develop later on, or how did all that come about for you? [00:10:37] Erica Johnson: Well, I let's see. I've always loved to take pictures. I always kind of had like an interest in taking pictures, but I didn't really know how, or like, I don't know. Hair and makeup was the main focus. So I, I just, it was always just kind of like, "oh, I'll try one day," but didn't really, you know, happen until the day after my father died. That's the first thing I grabbed. I went in his house downstairs and I picked up his cameras and I don't know, I just clinged to them so tightly. And when COVID happened, I just started practicing. I just started walking around and, you know, I just really was focusing on like, "how can I, as I grieve, this is a very heavy cloud that I'm facing." And I can't really see my way out. Everything is a blur. So I try to remind myself of like, God's creation. And I would go outside and take a picture of like the birds or whatever, just to keep that, even though I'm in this fog, but to keep that reminder that God's creation surrounding me, gives me comfort that God is with me in a way, if that makes sense, because grief is a very lonely road. [00:12:04] And as far as the metal smithing-- I have an associates degree in fashion design and I really, I kind of did the dab, then did alterations for people and this and that, but that really wasn't-- I really wanted to be able to get my hands in like metal, like jewelry or whatever, wherever it would lead me. And so, you know, I, it took a while, but this, I just felt was the perfect time to enroll in a metal smithing class. I was always, if I go to trade shows, I would sit there and talk forever to people who made jewelry and I would just be so fascinated by it. And so, yeah, that's, I would always like sketch little jewelry pieces or cut out clippings of inspirations I liked, but I was just, I guess, waiting for the perfect timing to actually take a class or try it. [00:13:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and like you were talking about earlier, you, you love helping women feel beautiful and confident. And so your business is kind of, you know, centered on that. But it, to me, it seems like that-- well, obviously as a makeup artist, that is an art role through and through, but it seems like even just taking care of, you know, whether that's a haircut or a facial or whatever, that's also kind of an art form in and of itself. I mean, I, I don't do those things, but I feel like that is absolutely the case. Do you, do you feel that way or is it kind of more like a little more routine for you on those kinds of things? [00:13:45] Erica Johnson: No. I, I agree. I feel that it is a form of art. It it's always especially doing hair. Yes, because you don't, you, you're creating something and doing makeup or a facial. It's a, it's a canvas. You don't know what you're going to do until you're in front of the person, you know, and getting to know the person and not everything works on every person, but really taking that time. And I personally, I'm a personable person, so I like that one-on-one personal approach because it really, I can really see where the person's coming from and you can really just be in tune with them and know what may work and what doesn't work. If that makes sense. [00:14:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love that. And, and like you said, it's probably it's it's like improv every single time you get somebody for a haircut. Cause it's, you don't necessarily know until they arrive. How cool. That's kind of fun. Yeah. Maybe intimidating too. I mean, it would be for me. [00:14:55] Erica Johnson: It can be at times. [00:14:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness gracious. Yeah. Well, Yeah, I think that's also cool what you do, and I'd love to dive more into your photography because I know you have a specific sort of series that you've been working on and we can't wait to hear all about that. [00:15:18] Erica Johnson: All right. So my, my final project of the progression of grief-- I basically, my first photo is just shattered, like in anger, just in anguish. It is inspired from back when my father first died. I got into a fight with a relative, my brother, and I was putting a mirror in the car and it cracked. And so I, for some reason, saved the mirror. And so it became my inspiration and I went ahead and just hit it and it just cracked. And I just basically reenacted the anger that I felt from the beginning with my eyeliner smeared, and I'm looking into the mirror, like as a, just a reflection of pain and just how lonely it feels, you know, where to turn because of the family dynamics and almost losing hope, if that makes any sense. [00:16:16] My second image is just like the compounding of like, the tears have nowhere to go. It's, it's very heavy. Every time the phone rings or a text message comes, somebody has died, you know? And it's, it's like, I feel like I'm going to explode. And I'm alone. And the third image is just anxious anxiety. Because I feel like I am in utter despair and I'm at the end of my rope and I cannot take it anymore. And with that third picture, I did write a prayer in my grief journal of asking God to help me because I cannot cling to my own strength and I need support. And I do have a friend who was like a true answer to prayer. She, I managed to capture the photo with me and her walking. And she knows the suffering that I've gone through of loss and just different circumstances in her life. We, our lives seem to parallel. She had no idea what I was going through, but she managed to send me a message on Facebook right at that time when I had asked God about like, to send, like give me strength. [00:17:35] So I was able to lean on her as another believer to kind of like carry me through as well as my support group as well. And with the support group and the support of her friendship, I was able, I'm able to look at my loved ones and look at those pictures as a sign of hope and the promise that I will see them again and really being thankful because they are, they were truly a gift, if that makes sense. And the time that they were here on the earth and just being thankful of my faith and the cross, because without the cross, I would not have the hope to see them again. [00:18:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And I, I'm so excited to see that project eventually. I hope I get to see it eventually, because I just think what you've captured is, is so impactful. And such a, it sounds like just a beautiful representation of, of grief, but yet hope. And I just, one of the things that I have admired so much about you is your unwavering hope. And even when it gets extraordinarily difficult and I can imagine there have been times when you've just felt so overwhelmed, but you continue to cling to truth and you continue to you, you don't give up, you continue to, to grow and learn and inspire. And I just think that that's, you're just amazing. You're so resilient. And I know it comes from your strong faith background. Well, I'm, I'm so excited, you know, for you and for this journey. And I know it's not, not a fun one necessarily, but I think what you're doing is, is so, like I said, inspiring. And, and so I'm just curious, do you-- obviously, obviously we're living in an odd time-- but are there future plans that you have as far as maybe, you know, continuing with the photography and metal work and or with your business? Do you have any sort of things that you're looking forward to? [00:19:44] Erica Johnson: Yes. I, I mean, I, I'm open to wherever God is leading me because this is a new normal. So as I said earlier, I know that this pain is purposeful. I am hoping that it will form into a ministry and that hopefully I can be able to continue to express through arts and maybe it'll open doors. I'm not sure which doors, but open more doors hopefully into a ministry involving others and collaborating, whether it be that or having a online forum for people to, you know, read or see the pictures. Most importantly, my grief project was most real for me that it is okay to be broken. And I feel like in this society, we have to always appear like we have it all together and that's not, that's not really healing or helpful. So I'm hoping in the future that it would get the attention of other people that it is truly okay to be broken because that's where your healing comes. [00:21:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, absolutely. That's that's beautiful. Well, I'm sure that there are some of our listeners who maybe are local, would love to help support your business and, or would just love to connect with you. Is there a way for them to do that? [00:21:15] Erica Johnson: Yes. I, I have a website. That's probably the best way to get ahold of me because Facebook you're never going to, it's kind of hard to find there's so many Erica Johnsons. So my website is www.ericajohnsonhairandmakeup.com. [00:21:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. And then there are a couple of questions that I love to ask my guests if you're up for that. [00:21:43] Erica Johnson: Yes, yes. Sure, sure. [00:21:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. So first of all, what is one change that you would love to see in the art world? I know an extremely broad question, but essentially what's one thing that you've noticed about could be about, you know, an industry that you're currently involved in, or maybe it's about, you know, what you witness as being maybe something to change, or essentially, what is one thing that you really would love to see be different about the art world? [00:22:17] Erica Johnson: I, I think a lot of times you see the beginning of something, the middle of ,something or the end of something, but you don't see all together, like the growth, if that makes sense. So I would have to say maybe like in the arts, like the, the progression of growth and doesn't need to be perfect more or less being open to going with the flow. And being okay with if I started, if I had the idea in my head of this, but it's starting to look like this, being okay-- it being whatever it is supposed to be. Don't try to force it. Don't try to, if it's going like this, then go with the flow. If that makes sense. Because truly we are, I mean, to me, art reminds me of life. You think you're in control, but you're really not. [00:23:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I absolutely agree. And then, is there are any particular art form that you have maybe always wanted to try, but haven't dabbled in yet, what would that art form be? What would you like to try next? [00:23:36] Erica Johnson: I would like to try maybe ceramics. I just, I just think it would be fun and therapeutic-- just really, you know, clay and forming something. So, yeah. [00:23:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that'd be a lot of fun and probably super challenging. Or at least for me it would be. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. And then my final question is at the end of your life, if you were to be able to witness or participate in one art experience for the last time, what would you choose? [00:24:16] Erica Johnson: Hmm, the one art experience-- I would say probably photography. And I say that because the little short journey that I've had with playing with the camera, even before taking a class, the mini travels-- I just love capturing the image and more or less, you really-- it's all about light. And I love how it's all about light, because really when going out searching and taking photos and looking-- whatever you may capture, you're trying to get the light right. But also when you're looking through the lens, you're also seeing the light in others in whatever you're capturing. And I think that is a very beautiful thing because --I don't know --we're just all-- I don't know how to describe it basically, but I would have to say photography. [00:25:18] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I love your description of being able to see the light in people. And that's just beautiful. Well, thank you so very much for being here today. Like I said, you're very inspiring and I really appreciate just the, the light and the joy and the hope that you bring to the world. And you do you do it with so much grace and style, despite, you know, the things that are difficult. And I think you're just a shining example of the light and of truth. And I just want to commend you for that and say thank you and say, you know, again, thank you so much for being here today. I really, really appreciate it. [00:25:57] Erica Johnson: Yes, of course. Thank you. And thank you for being a blessing to others. This is truly beautiful. So thank you. [00:26:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you so much to everybody who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:26:18] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I welcome Hannah Biggs! Hannah is primarily a mosiac artist who also draws coloring pages and has self-published two comic coloring books for kids. She talks about the process of being given the inspiration for her largest mosiac project to date, along with its design and creation, as well as about a really impactful experience she had witnessing art used in an Orthodox church. Part of the profits from all her sold art go towards supporting missions and charity projects around the world. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of the mosaic Hannah talks about in this episode!)   Get in touch with Hannah Biggs: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063717901468 | https://www.facebook.com/wanderlustcedarville  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 079 - Hannah Biggs [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Hannah Biggs. Hannah is a mosaic artist, maybe primarily, but that barely scratches the surface of all the cool things that she is and does. And, full disclosure-- I'm so excited especially to have Hannah here because she is one of my lovely cousins and it's so much fun to see all the art in our family. It's just so cool to see how we all kind of branched out into little different artistic endeavors. So, Hannah, thank you so much for being here today. I'm thrilled to talk to you. [00:01:16] Hannah Biggs: Thanks for having me. [00:01:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would absolutely love if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about your background, maybe what got you interested in art in the first place and sort of how that has changed and evolved over time? Because I know you've had a lot of really cool opportunities, especially, and I just love to hear all about it. [00:01:39] Hannah Biggs: I don't remember a time in my life I've not been interested in art. As a kid, my mom would print out a list of all of the ways you could enter art at the county fair. And she would tell us that we had to do a certain number of them from the different categories in order for us to like pass art for our homeschool. So I tried a lot of different medium and it's just always been a part of my life. [00:02:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, that's great. I did not know that. That's hilarious. Actually, I can picture that. So I'm curious-- I guess I'm not familiar with that-- so, so what kinds of artistic things did you try? I mean, you said you tried a lot, but I'm just curious -- does any of them particularly stand out as being like, you know, "oh, I, I loved that project and you know, it was important to me because." [00:02:29] Hannah Biggs: Probably not. They all happen when I was pretty young. I guess the thing I liked most was just trying all the different things. And as a child, if you're the only person entered in a certain category, you automatically get the blue ribbon. So. [00:02:44] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. That's hilarious. Well, yeah. And of course that's exciting, you know, obviously as a kid, I'm sure it'd be just as exciting as an adult to be like, "yes, I'll take it and run." Oh, awesome. Okay. So you don't really remember a time when art wasn't a part of your life, but I do know that as an adult, you've probably developed further into skillsets. And granted you're a wife and a mother and you have lots going on. So I'd just love to hear about how that your artistic endeavors have changed over the years and like over time, how has that evolved? [00:03:19] Hannah Biggs: Okay. In high school I got into poetry. And then in college I started doing a lot of drawings. And then when I had kids, I did a lot more sewing and, you know, made them like costumes and stuff. And then my pastor's daughter at my church is a stain glass artist and she's phenomenal. And I mean, glass is just so pretty. So I asked her if she would teach me how to do it. And I went over to her house one day and she was showing me some of the basics, but we didn't have time to do the whole project. And as I'm walking out the door, she asked if I was interested in mosaics and I have always loved the look of them, but I've never done them. And so that's what I told her. And she's like, "would you be interested in trying?" Like "yes, of course." So she hands me like a box full of supplies tells me that she has tried it and doesn't want to do it anymore. And since she does stained glass, she always has all these scraps laying around that she doesn't know how to get rid of. And so she just kind of sent me out the door with a list of instructions and didn't show me how to do anything. And I went home and tried it and fell in love and never looked back. [00:04:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's awesome. I love that, you know, one artistic endeavor can inspire a new one. You know, you and her that such a complimentary set of things. That's so cool. And yeah, stained glass is the most beautiful thing ever. That's one of my artistic, you know, would love to try in the future. But okay, so you started doing mosaic work and what kinds of projects have you done with it? I mean, I, I, I have a little bit of a sneak peek, so I get the behind the scenes a little bit, but I'd still love to hear your journey because if I'm not incorrect, you've recently finished a pretty major mosaic project. Is that true? [00:05:15] Hannah Biggs: So the most recent, I should say the largest project I have ever done was a project I did for my church two and a half years in the making. I was actually working on a different project and I was also reading in Revelation at the same time. And I, I swear God spoke to me and gave me the inspiration for this because there's no way I could've come up with it on my own. But in Revelation chapter four, it talks about the throne room of God and how behind the throne there's a rainbow, like an emerald kind of radiating out from the throne. And so the picture is seven arcs of the green rainbow and three worshipers in different poses of adoration, and the bottom there's like the streets of gold. But the really cool part is that each arc of the rainbow represents a character trait of God. And the gold foundation has 12 large stones each surrounded by 12 small stones. And the 12 big ones represent both the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles and the 144 little ones is symbolic of the prophet. There's a verse that talks about our faith being founded on the apostles and the prophets and teaching and stuff. And so there's just a lot of symbology in there and it's now in my church. [00:06:50] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. That's so cool. What a, what a beautiful vision and a representation. I think, I mean, I love art for so many reasons, but I think that is just, it takes it to a new level, right? When you have a very particular inspiration that, you know, is divine. I mean, yeah. Like you said, it's not from you and so, and so you were able to bring this to life and show especially God's character. I liked that idea of, you know, that being incorporated in the mosaic of like, this is that interpretation and you do that through just a really beautiful medium. So, okay. So two and a half years in the making. So how, how big is it actually? Let's start there. [00:07:36] Hannah Biggs: It's, it's two feet by two feet. I wasn't working on the glass part for two years, but the design of it has been in process for two years. But the actual glasswork itself took seven months. [00:07:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Still substantial. And so when you go, yeah, no, I, I mean, for sure. So because I'm not a mosaic artist, so this is, you know, really interesting to me is of course you have to design it first. So when you first got this vision or this, you know, idea, was it like crystal clear exactly what you were supposed to represent or did it take a lot of sort of tweaking of the design over time to, to get it to a point where you thought, "Okay, this is in line with what I had this vision?" [00:08:24] Hannah Biggs: So when I, when I first had the idea and I sketched it out, it was mostly like the people in the colors and that hasn't changed. Like that part itself has looked exactly the same since the beginning. But the arcs and their symbols has taken more tweaking, trying to figure out how best-- like which, which stories have the, the simplest symbology what character traits of God are. So I broke up the arcs into, I guess, three categories. So the center arc has Hebrew in it actually. And it's the name of God. So it says I Am that I Am, and on the three arcs closer to the throne are who God is without us. So God is infinitely sovereign. God is omniscient, all knowing, orderly-- that's one category. [00:09:28] And then I learned a new theological word called aseity, which means that God is complete within himself. He doesn't need anything from anyone. And so I did a braid for that one to represent the Trinity and his aseity, that like who He is all His different parts. Like He is complete and He all works together with himself. And then the three closer to the worshipers is who God is to us. So there's He is creator God, He is faithful. And He is just so trying to figure out how, how to best represent those things has been a lot of, a lot more planning, I guess. [00:10:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That makes sense. And, you know, I would think it's a lot different creating a piece of art, quote-unquote, has a higher purpose then. You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with creating a super whimsical mosaic, right? But there's a totally different level of responsibility, I feel like? [00:10:33] Hannah Biggs: Yes. [00:10:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? That you kind of feel when you're doing something like that. So that's, that's cool. Like, I'm so glad that you spent the time and, you know, and did your research clearly and dug in and weren't just like, "here's the thing." And, you know, I think it's cool what you did, so that's awesome. But I know that you, that's not where you stopped. So can you tell us about, what's kind of exciting next for you in this realm? [00:11:03] Hannah Biggs: So, I joined a shop. There's a little-- I don't know if art collective art shop-- is the right term right here in Cedarville called Wanderlust. And-- a bunch of artists gives the wrong impression, although not on this podcast-- they're, they're makers of things. So there's, I believe there's 10 of us right now. You know, there's, there's a lady who does like honey and homegrown tea and there's me and I have my mosaics, but I also have my comic books and scripture coloring pages there. And there's a lady who does jewelry and the, the whole point of the shop is that all of the things there are unique. They're homemade and they're local to us in Ohio. And it's like, there's, there's all sorts of crazy cool stuff there. And none of the, none of the artists compete. So like I come in bringing all of my following and they bring their following and we all joined together and we are all part owners in the shop. So basically all I have to do every month is pay rent and I can have as much or as little art there as I want. And like me simply being there benefits everyone else and everyone else being their benefits me. It's, it's been really great. [00:12:29] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. And that's such a cool concept too. And like you said, you can, you can all bring your following, so to speak, your fans, but then, then they get the opportunity to see everybody else's work and vice versa. So it's a great way to expand your audience and people you wouldn't ordinarily get in front of necessarily without spending an arm and a leg and advertising or whatever it is. So that's great. And you touched on something that I would absolutely love to delve into more. So you talked about your coloring books, so please share all about that and what it's like to publish something like that. And I mean, what an endeavor. [00:13:05] Hannah Biggs: So they're, they're not, they're not like published, published. They're, they're, self-published. [00:13:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Still! [00:13:10] Hannah Biggs: It's still really cool. [00:13:11] Lindsey Dinneen: It's still real, like you have this physical product you created it in your hands. It's still super cool. [00:13:16] Hannah Biggs: So I've always wanted to do in October where you have the 31 prompts put out by Jake Parker and you draw something every day and then you ink it and it's done. But the first year I tried it, the word list was amazing and it had like dragon and legendary. And I forget what the other one was, but like adventure words. And then it had things like coat and snow and cold, and I'm like, "Well, clearly this is an adventure that happened in winter." Like, there's a story half written, but I'm not very good at writing stories. So I asked my husband, "Okay. We could somehow loosely tie the words together and like make a, make a story and just have like one picture per page and like one sentence per page, no big deal." And he comes back to me with like people talking for the first day and I'm like, " Is this a comic? Am I drawing a comic book?" And he was like, "Sure, why not?" There was not a lot of forethought that went into this, the first one anyway. But it was so much fun and it's a hilarious story. And you basically, what I ended up with was a coloring, a comic book that you can color yourself. So, you know, you can buy a comic book and you also get a coloring book. And when you're done with it, you have a comic book that's all colored in your favorite colors with lots of cute little animals doing crazy things on an adventure with treasure and dragons. [00:14:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. [00:14:55] Hannah Biggs: And then the following year, a good friend of mine-- she writes, she writes short stories and I gave her the prompt list and within four hours she had like a fully written out story for me. [00:15:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. [00:15:09] Hannah Biggs: So that one's, that one's a lot more cohesive-- a little, a little less fanatic, but it's still fun with a lot of great faces. Yeah. [00:15:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I love that too, because you know, one of the things that I personally enjoy so much about the arts is the collaboration aspect, right? So you might not feel that either you're inspired to write something or that it's, you know, that that's maybe not your area of expertise or strength, but, but you have these other people that you know, that that is great for them and, you know, maybe they don't draw. And so to put these things together is always so cool. I just, I love the collaborative nature of arts and how one thing complements the other. So that's super cool. Well, awesome. And so those are also for sale at that shop, if people are interested in purchasing those or any of your work, do you also have a way for them to do so online? Say if they're not local or how to connect with you? [00:16:12] Hannah Biggs: Yes. They can either do it through the Wanderlust Cedarville page or through my Broken and Made New page on Facebook. [00:16:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, I'm curious, are there any particular stories that come to mind of these really impactful moments to remember when it comes to the arts? Either maybe you witnessed an art form or experience that really moved you, or you even witnessed somebody else witnessing your own art. And that it was some moment to remember, like, does, does anything come to mind as far as that goes? [00:16:47] Hannah Biggs: I mean, anytime someone would come in and see the Revelation mosaic in process or afterwards, that's always been really cool to watch, because again, I know it's not me that they're excited about. I know it's that they're seeing a little tiny piece of the beauty of God. But I think the most impactful experience I have ever had with art was actually at an Orthodox church. My sister-in-law and her husband are Greek Orthodox. Let me back up. When I went to college at Spring Arbor University in Michigan, I took a bunch of classes, like Bible classes. And for one of them, we had to experience worship in some other form, other than the traditional like Baptist church. And a group of people wanted to try an Orthodox church. And there was a Russian Orthodox church nearby. And I went with them and it like on the outside, it was this like little white barn in the middle of absolutely nowhere. [00:17:57] And I walked in and it was so beautiful. You could feel, like tangibly feel, the holiness of God and, and how much they revered Him. That's not something you get in a regular church or, I mean, the kind of church that I go to, it's much more practical. But like they had this like lush red carpet and icons on every single wall with like the gold borders and rich colors and detailing the life of Christ and the like notable stories from the Bible. And at the front of the chapel there were these--they have some special name for them-- but they're, they're almost like the dressing curtains like the, the metal ones that you stand up and you get dressed behind. I'm forgetting the name of them, but they're all made out of gold intertwined. And like, it was just gorgeous. [00:19:06] So that was my first experience with an Orthodox church. And that one was a Russian one and they're a little bit more on the conservative side where like all the women wear head coverings and stuff. But it like that in itself made a really big impact on me. And I was talking with my sister-in-law and her husband about Easter in the Orthodox tradition, and they told me that they do the 40 days of Lent. And that their Good Friday service is really important. And so I went to a Good Friday service here in Ohio. And you, you walk in and everyone is dressed in black ,and colors are a really big deal to me. And, you know, so that already sets the tone and the church's kind of dark. And as they're going through the service, at one point the priest and some of the elders or whatever their official titles are, they pick up this shroud that represents the body of Christ and somebody is waving incense and the, the priest is holding the Bible and these people, there's four of them holding the shroud and they start walking down the side aisle of the church and everyone is singing this really solemn hymn. [00:20:34] And we walk out of the church and we're walking around the parking lot and I just suddenly saw, "Wait a minute, everyone's dressed in black and there's like pallbearers and the body of Christ and like, oh my goodness. I'm at a real funeral." Like they're not messing around here. Like Jesus died. And like, it just hit me, like Good Friday has never hit me before. But then they, the pallbearers stand on either side of the doorway to go back into the church. And they hold the shroud above their heads and you have to pass under the body of Christ in order to get back into the church, which was really cool. And then once everyone came back inside and sat down, the pallbearers bring the shroud in and they lay the body of Christ, the shroud, on the alter, like they're putting him in the tomb and then it's done. Like the service ends and you have to go home. And like, I just started weeping. Like He died and I have to leave. Like, I don't want to leave. Like I want to wait for Easter. Yeah. [00:21:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:21:50] Hannah Biggs: Pictures are important. [00:21:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I mean, obviously that spoke to you in a completely different way 'cause it was, it was so immersive that it was almost like you were experiencing it firsthand versus reading about it. And that of course makes an impact, but not as if you were experiencing it. So that's amazing. Oh, wow. Plus, I mean, I, I definitely relate to the churches that are more Orthodox or, you know, in Europe, for instance, there's so many of these gorgeous, just stunning architecture and there is a difference. Like you walk into them and I mean, I suppose your brain could go two ways, right? It could be either like, "Oh my gosh, it's so lavish." Or you could go, "Okay. But this is honoring the majesty of God the way that they have chosen to decorate it and you know who He is." And that's a really cool thing that they do care so much that they put so much into, you know, the beauty and the majesty of the church. So yeah, I can totally relate to that. That's, that's really powerful. That's really cool. Well, thank you for sharing that. That was a fantastic story. I do have a couple questions that I would love to ask you about art. So my first question is, what would change would you like to see in the art world? So that can be super broad or super specific based on your own experience. But if there's one change that you could see happen in the art world, what change would you love to see? [00:23:29] Hannah Biggs: Wow. I have no idea. I guess probably more along the lines of what we were just talking about, where art is in the church, more like all art in all of its forms. [00:23:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then is there something arts related that you've always wanted to try, but haven't yet either because of life circumstances or because maybe it would take another layer of courage, but you want to do it someday? [00:24:06] Hannah Biggs: Does just started to try count? [00:24:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. [00:24:10] Hannah Biggs: I just started learning to play the cello. [00:24:12] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. [00:24:13] Hannah Biggs: I wanted to do that since I was eight. It's going to be a really long process. [00:24:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's awesome. Congrats. I mean, that's, that's so cool that you're picking that up. I love it. And then my final question is, at the end of your life, what's the one art related experience you would want to experience again for the last time? [00:24:35] Hannah Biggs: Wow. I have no idea. I'm hoping to have a lot of art experiences between now and then. As you experience art, you take your own life experience into it with you and so the art that I see now is very different than the art I see as a child, even if it's the same exact piece, because I carry all of my life experience with me into understanding it. And my guess is that as I get older and experience art, I will appreciate it more than I'm currently appreciating art. And I will be more excited to see those pieces again, because they will mean more to me then than anything means to me right now, but I could be wrong. [00:25:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I absolutely love that answer. That was very thoughtful. And I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. The way that we view art from even one year to the next can change radically based on our life in that year. Yeah, I love that. That's such a great perspective. Well, Hannah, this has been an absolute pleasure to have you as my guest. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for what you contribute to the world. I love the fact that you are fully engaging in multiple different art mediums and bring beauty and a little glimpse of divinity into the world. I think that that's really special and impactful. So thanks for doing that. And, and thanks for being here. This has been great. [00:26:20] Hannah Biggs: Oh, thank you. I'm, I had a lot of fun. There, there was one other thing that's part of the shop that you might want to know about. So I have been redoing the third through sixth grade book for Awana. And so I have been doing scripture coloring pages that are geared more towards older people. And that might be getting for real published at some point next year. [00:26:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Sneak peak, everyone! You heard it here first. That is super cool. Well, goodness, I can't wait to learn about that journey and how all that goes, but how cool. Congrats, that's just super exciting. [00:27:00] Hannah Biggs: And some of those are available at the, at the shop. [00:27:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Great. That's very, very cool. Well, thanks again so much for being here and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you are feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:27:24] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I have compiled some of our more recent guests' answers to the question, "What is the most important role of an artist?" This delightful compilation brings a plethora of unique, honest, and inspiring answers to that question, and I'm excited to share part two of this series with you today. Enjoy!    Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 78 - "What's the Most Important Role of an Artist? - Part 2 [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life." [00:00:12] Roman: "All I can do is put my heart in to the world." [00:00:15] Elizabeth: "It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough." [00:00:23] Elna: "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful." [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to be bringing you another special episode today. We are going to explore all of the different answers to the question, "what's the most important role of an artist?" Over the last year and a half I have gotten to ask that question of so many artists and guests that have been on my show. And I absolutely love hearing people's perspective on this question. So I'm excited to bring it all together for you in this special episode that I hope you thoroughly enjoy. [00:01:11] Mike Huerter: Probably just be true to yourself. You know, you, you can't fake art. It's, I mean, yeah, I'm portraying a role in something, and I guess people would maybe think that's fake, but for me, I want to do it to the very best of my ability. I want people to--when they, when they look and see me doing something, they don't see me, they see the person or, you know, that I'm trying to portray. [00:01:38] Gregg Gonzales: I think, I think it's to delight. Truly, I think it's to delight those, whether that delight can be in the form of, "I appreciate it. I think it's garbage. I think it's the greatest thing ever." I think it's to gain, to get a response from the people who are experiencing the art, whether it be music, whether it be a painting, whether it be a book. You want a response. You want, you want them to feel something. So to me as an artist, I want my people to, or I want the people who are experiencing my work to feel something. I know that sounds very general, but to me, it's about feeling. [00:02:23] Jami Robben: I would say the most important role is probably sharing your gifts with others, just to again, make them happy. I think a lot of times are sometimes can be, you know, just kept to yourself if you're scared of showing other people. But the best thing you could do as an artist is share it and inspire others with it. [00:02:44] JaJa Smith: To be honest, because we as people have dealt with enough bologna sandwich that, you know, it doesn't do anything for anyone, if you're just doing something for the sake of the adoration or the sake of a finished product. But if you're true and you're intentional and you're authentic, I mean, that is the product that people can truly get on board with. You know, I think that that is to not just to people, but also to the work itself, and then to the artists, because there have been a few times I may have flubbed or played it safer. And then, you know, I stepped back and the scene is over and, you know, I was just like, "What are you doing?" Like you, you know that you cheated yourself and you're like, "Why did I do that?" So the biggest thing to me is just be honest, be authentic with your work and everything that you do. You know, I don't see any need to talk about things that you don't understand. You know, like if, if you're a music artist, that's like, you know, tell your story. You know, you have a story. And it's beautiful. I mean, it's yours and it deserves to be told. [00:03:49] Darnell Benjamin: I think the number one rule for an artist is to be honest. I think that, to be honest, whatever that means, to be honest. [00:03:59] Emily Moores: I think that there are a lot of different kinds of roles for different kinds of artists. Like some artists have you reflect on, you know, historical events or connect you to maybe an idea or group of people that you wouldn't have a connection with. And I guess in any situation, whether, you know, like if I'm just creating artwork to be playful, I'm still creating a connection to this like physical, tangible object existing in space. And so for me, I would say artists create connections where we maybe haven't thought about them previously. [00:04:39] Harlem Lennox: To be themselves and to be truthful about what it is that they are trying to convey, whatever it is, no matter how dark you might feel that it is, or no matter how light it is, because it just-- I feel like if you can feel something and you can get something, some type of meaning from whatever it is, then it is art. And so if you are making, whether it's a piece of music or painting, if you're dancing, whatever it is, if it has meaning, and it is true to you, then I think that is the response. That is the responsibility of an artist. I don't want an artist who tries to be the next whomever. I don't want an artist who, okay, what is everybody liking right now? Let me try to create that. And I understand that people got to do what they got to do to get where they're trying to go. And so maybe they start off that way because they're still learning. But when you get to a point where you're confident enough and brave enough to be able to produce your own work, your own truth, whatever is in your soul, then I definitely think that that people have a responsibility to bring themselves to the art world, because like I said, we need it. We don't need another Van Gogh. He's here. He did his thing. Thank you Van. But I want to see another whomever it is: Brittany, Sam, you know, Godfrey, whoever. Bring me your art, bring me your truth. Or else it doesn't mean anything. [00:06:23] Christina Stanton: It's to tell their truth, because we all are having such different experiences in this world that what you want is that somebody is expressing your experience somewhere in art, doing something. And you just want to connect with art that's expressing your particular experience that you're having on this planet and is sharing your human experience. And so I just think artists should be telling their truth of how they're viewing the world and their experience, because there's going to be people out there that can relate and want to relate and want that comradery, and wants somebody to quote unquote, "understand them," but I just feel like it's a shared experience. So it's a story that, that can be shared with several people. We're not all having the same experience, but there are people out there who are having, you know, the same struggles, and the same highs and lows and joys. And they're looking at life in the world and God, and in the same way, do you want to connect to art that is speaking to you personally. [00:07:33] Jeffrey Holst: I think that artists bring perspective to everything. If we didn't have artists, our world would be very boring. So I think perspective and entertainment are probably the two things that are most important. [00:07:49] Lucas Zellers: The role of an artist is to tell us what to think about. And I think my experience with monsters and the study of them and sort of the practical use of monster theory is that art gives us a way of saying things that we couldn't say, or feeling things that we couldn't feel or experiencing things that we had no other way to experience. [00:08:13] Kristin Beale: The important role: to entertain and not to entertain others for that is a big plus, but to entertain yourself, to keep yourself happy to stay while you're doing it for it to be a good, you know, way to keep yourself happy. And, you know, it's a major plus if it can bring happiness to other people too. [00:08:34] Doug Motel: Well, I think the, the role of the artist is to lead us in our evolution. I think that you know, Darwin pointed out that we evolved from creatures in the sea, you know, we keep evolving and I think that there's an assumption that evolution is just kind of like on autopilot, but I don't. I believe that we could actually hasten the pace of our evolution. We can you know steer and direct our evolution and the ones that do that are the artists. So the role of the artist is nothing short of saving humanity. [00:09:15] Gloria Grace Rand: Well, the most important role-- I think it's just being true to who you are and to trust yourself to be able to communicate whatever it is that you want to communicate. Because if you're going about doing something in the arts to please someone else, it's not really ultimately going to be successful. I think you've gotta be able to do whatever it is from your heart to really be able to please yourself. And it may not please everybody. And that's okay. But as long as you are conveying what you want to convey from your heart, then it is going to touch someone else's heart. [00:09:58] Donna Kay Yarborough: There are many different roles that people have depending on their abilities and what their focus is. So like I mentioned earlier, some people just want to bring joy into the world. And I think that is lovely. Joy is defined on many different levels and that can be a pure focus in me. I I flavor joy on top of a baseline of perspective. I am ever the educator, even though I am not officially teaching in a classroom, my goal is to always teach in some manner or another. So making this tasty nugget of learning I think is how I function. And a lot of people out there function, there's other things you can do. Sometimes you just want to make a pretty thing, or sometimes you just want to decorate. And that again is very, very valuable in this world, but mine is teaching. [00:10:59] Christopher John Garcia: To make art. I mean, really, that's what it comes down to, I think. Wanting an artist to be a philosopher, a spokesman, any of that? Really not as important as the fact that they just create the work. [00:11:16] Jeff Leisawitz: To authentically create. I mean, that's it. So you create with the truth of their experience, whatever that is. It's not about building skills, although that's great if you do, right? I mean, you look at it again and in music, punk rock, you know, the Ramones and the Sex Pistols and, you know, bands like that, they sucked as musicians, but you could feel it, right? They were putting their heart and truth into the music and that's why it resonated so much. [00:11:50] Shawn Kilgore: To keep it alive, to keep it going. [00:11:53] Natalie Cordone: I think for me, it's to tell the truth, whatever your truth is in that moment, to be vulnerable enough, to be honest, in a way where you are sharing something real, sharing a piece of yourself with people that you might never meet or really get to know. [00:12:13] Corry MacDonald: Oh, artists are the way-showers. Most of us are stuck in our, our brains, myself included. Why do you think I share this? I have to learn what I'm sharing. So the artists seem to know that when they go into that flow state, when they go into that still point inside and bring something into the world that was never seen before, that they're dovetailing with all of life, with consciousness itself. And so they show those who've never gone there before what's possible, and they bring something new to form, which is sheer magic. [00:12:48] Sandy Rodriguez: I think that they're --okay-- it has two types of importance. One would be important for oneself. I think that as an artist, the importance of art to yourself would be allowing you to express feelings and modify them, so it's something that is both a source of expression and also a source of comfort to yourself as an artist, I think. But as to society or more as a whole, I think that, firstly, it can make society better by adding more beauty to everyday lives, but it can also shine a light on things that might be social ills or social problems. So it's simply another way of communicating. As a journalist, as a former newspaper editor, I would say that the role of art is not entirely different from the role of any other form of media. You can either shine a light on problems or spread the word on something that is beautiful, spread the word about something that is fascinating, bring more beauty to the world. [00:13:53] Sabrina Osso: It goes back to freedom to liberate. I like that word that you used during our interview: to, to liberate, liberate all emotions, whether it be happiness, sadness, anger. It could be, yeah, sadness, happiness, joy, liberation of all emotions, because once you release it, then you can get to the next level. So, yeah, liberation, I would say. [00:14:24] Anthony Saldana: Tell the truth. Just tell your own truth and also try to find your own. I know that stories have been told and retold, but try to find your own angle to, to put your own expression on, on a different take on a story. But I, I really believe in, in being honest in your work. [00:14:47] Jason Figueira: I think persistence is also something very important for an artist to have, because when you have a passion to tell a story, you don't give up telling it. There are a lot of obstacles that come up in any different kind-- dancing, whether it's painting, whether it's film or so many things that come up in your way. But as long as you have your passion to tell a story, you will overcome those obstacles. And I'd say, you know, there's an expression: a genius is 90% hard work and 10% ideas. So really it's about how much work you put into it. So I would say persistence is absolutely key for an artist to have, is absolutely a key quality rather, for an artist to have. [00:15:30] Sharon Glassman: I think if you truly believe it, see it, want to share it. That I think is probably what makes art, art. There's something there that's just intrinsically real. [00:15:47] Christopher Boorman: Well, for me, the role of an artist is to share their art. It's to share with other people how they see the world, to share how they feel about the human experience. I hate to sound trite, but I'm reminded of that question, "If a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around, does it make a sound? So if you're creating art and you don't share it, then are you really an artist? You, you might have a hobby and that's just fine. You can make art for yourself. But I think for it to be art in its truest form, to be an artist, art needs to be shared, it needs to be enjoyed. [00:16:31] Bryan Colley: Well, that's a, that's a tricky question. I mean, I think the role of the artist is to, to offer ideas to the world and hopefully they can offer an idea. No one's thought of before. And of course, you know, everyone is born ignorant, so everyone experiences new ideas all the time in the, in the course of their life. It's not like there's this one set of ideas everybody knows. Everyone has a different experience. So, so everyone has a way to experience art and some people gain something from it and other people don't because maybe they've already experienced that or, or they don't understand it, you know? So, so you need a wide field of art out there because there's just different art for each person. [00:17:17] So you go through life learning things. You get an education, you read books, you, you know-- I'm a media junkie. I watch films and I listen to music, you know, it's consume, consume, consume. And I think at some point you want to contribute to that or you want to give back and it's like, "Well, I've learned all this for what reason?" It's like, so that I can take my experience and my knowledge and offer my ideas or my observations on that. So that's where art comes into play, I think. And I think it's something everyone can participate in. It's not just for professionals. Everyone can be an artist and offer something to the world. [00:18:01] Jessie Katz Greenberg: I think that it's just to share your perspective, whatever it is. And, and again, I mean, you'll, this might be very obvious from the way I've answered, I'm answering these questions, but I just feel like, you know, art is for everyone. So I just think the most important role is to share your perspective. And if that perspective is, you know, something deep that people have to think about, or if you're making an important political commentary or you're, you know, making things because it's cute and your perspective as you want to cheer people up and make them happy. And that's the point of it then. All of that is valid. So I think it's just sharing your perspective, whatever that is. [00:18:42] Patricia Karen Gage: I think it's liberation, freedom, total expression, and to help shift the misconceptions of, of reality. And it's an opportunity to interpret whatever it is that you, as a human being are here, are here in your own path to experience. And yeah, it's, it's the artist journey. [00:19:09] Sally Brown: I think to express themselves and make their voices heard because we're, we're documenting life in a creative way for history. So just continuing to do it and using their voice in different ways is just, is the most important role for them. So, yeah, just doing it. [00:19:28] Will Blaine: I know that artists do different things. I think that many artists like to make political statements and, and things like that, but I, I don't think that's the most important rule or role. I think that that artists should do it for themselves primarily. I, I've, I've seen people that are artists that want to become famous. I don't particularly want that myself. I, I mean, I don't, I never desired to be famous. I just like entertaining kids, basically. But I think that a person needs to do it as a, as a way of expressing themselves. That's the most important thing above everything else. [00:20:02] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So my instinctive response to that is leeriness, because I, first of all, I obviously do believe that there is an important role for artists. I'm a professional artist. It's, it's something I've devoted a huge portion of my life to. It's my passion. I am always a little fearful that there's a danger because we've all known that sort of the artist with the sort of messianic complex, you know, the idea that I'm creating something because I believe it's important. And this approach generally creates art that is not that enjoyable. And I'm, I'm resistant to that. That said, I do believe that art is important, but I, I tend to flinch from that as a starting place for making something. But if I had to say, what is the role of art? Again, the first thing that leaps into my mind is, it's to provide a kind of fun house mirror. It's to provide a reflection of reality that distorts it in some way or shifts our focus onto a specific aspect of it. [00:21:14] Aunia Kahn: The most important role of an artist is to not worry about what everybody thinks. The most important role of an artist is to do what they want to do in, in themselves, what feels right for them and to not cater to anybody else. Unless of course they're catering for a reason, like I said you know, a minute ago, like, you know, I want to sell my work and I know this kind of stuff sells, and this is what I'm creating, because I know I can make a dollar and pay my bills. That's great. You know, but I-- the role of an artist is to be who they want to-- I think the role of anybody, I think the role of an artist is the role of anybody, really, to be who you want to be without explaining yourself. Of course, unless you're harming people, that's a whole other thing, but, you know, be who you want to be, express how you want to express, live how you want to live, without the expectations and pressures of society and other people. That's how I feel artists and people not should-- cause I don't like the word should-- but would benefit in living life, being free, free of, free of all of that, to just be what you want to be, do what you want to do. Say what you want to say. [00:22:31] Justin Alcala: The most important part is communicate and inspire. If you have to find a fundamental way to connect to someone through your medium, and once you communicate with them, you inspire them to take what you said and make it their own. And for books, any characters' story, once I get it out in the world, it was no longer my story. It is the reader's story. What they think is far more important about the protagonist /antagonist, the plot than anything that I've dreamed up, it is their world to be inspired and kind of take it into their own lives and contribute. [00:23:05] Natsune Oki: Artists are the key player in terms of creating something new and creating a future of a future. Like it really like, you know, until now it's it was an engineer, but because now we've built some infrastructures for people to be more creative, possibility is unlimited, like with the artists combined with technology, like it's, it's going to be like crazy. Like it's going to be our future. [00:23:33] Rachel Moore: I know it's kind of a, that's been kind of a weird idea lately --the truth, but I think to shine a light on things that maybe for various reasons, society or people have said, you know, we can't look at this to shine a light in a way that is accessible. I think that if we just like, you know, shove things in people's faces like, eh, that's not really doing the job of art in my opinion. To invite people to see things differently, that's what I think the role of an artist. [00:24:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I hope you enjoyed all of the answers to the question. What's the most important role of an artist. As you can tell, we have such a diverse group of guests who have come through the show and it's been so much fun to hear their perspectives on some of these really interesting questions that lead us to think deeper about different aspects of art. So thank you for joining me. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:24:35] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I have compiled some of our more recent guests' answers to the question, "What is the most important role of an artist?" This delightful compilation brings a plethora of unique, honest, and inspiring answers to that question, and I'm excited to share part one of this series with you today. Enjoy!    Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 77 - "What's the Most Important Role of an Artist?" - Part 1 [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life." [00:00:12] Roman: "All I can do is put my heart in to the world." [00:00:15] Elizabeth: "It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough." [00:00:23] Elna: "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful." [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to be bringing you another special episode today. We are going to explore all of the different answers to the question, "what's the most important role of an artist?" Over the last year and a half I have gotten to ask that question of so many artists and guests that have been on my show. And I absolutely love hearing people's perspective on this question. So I'm excited to bring it all together for you in this special episode that I hope you thoroughly enjoy. [00:01:11] Ashley Taylor: I wrote about this one time and I'm going to try to summarize what I said. I believe that the role of an artist is to observe. Observe and express. So observation is a very important part of-- if you're the landscape painter, you have to spend a lot of time looking at the landscape that you're going to paint. And you have to observe the details in ways that you may not ordinarily if you're just looking at this picture, but trying to put it down on paper, you have to consider all of this at great detail. And so a metaphor that I love is -- as an artist drawing or painting or doing something visual like this, you have to always ask, "Where are the shadows in what I'm drawing, where the shadow is falling?" And that tells you: "Where is the light and where's the light coming from to cast these shadows?" and so when I expand that into sort of a metaphor for what the artist is doing, I think, I think that's what we are supposed to be doing personally is like, okay, I'm looking at life or I'm looking at the situation. Where are the shadows? Where are the dark things, the bad things? [00:02:24] Right? But then if, if these are the shadows, okay, there's gotta be light coming from somewhere because shadows don't exist without light. I mean, if there was no light, you'd be looking at a blank black piece of paper. And we all know life is more than that . Anyway, so all that to say, I think the role of the artist is to say, "Where's the darkness, where are the shadows, where's the light? How do I represent both fairly?" And then let you draw your own conclusions. Like I can infuse my conclusions into what I make. But in the end, art is up for interpretation. It's usually subjective. And so, you may look at my story. And say, " well, the darkness is way more important than the light there. The shadows, you know, outweigh the light in this." But somebody else might say, "wow, look at the way the sun is shining." So that's what I would say to be a careful observer of the world and to draw out where the good things are as well as the bad. [00:03:30] Bryant Williams: Artists needs to be truly authentic. You know, in this day and age, you know, whether people like that or not, it's--art is subjective--and be authentically you. [00:03:40] Krista Eyler: I think artists help people in the world, see things in a different way. I think I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. I mean, what would we do without, you know, the great playwrights who have shown us corners of the world that I will never see or make music from different countries that I, I didn't grow up in that tradition, so I would never have heard it. I mean, an artist's job is to enrich life for others. I don't, I mean, I inherently, I think the creation of art is kind of selfish because we have to, it comes from our brain, comes from our hand. [00:04:25] We're very happy or sad with it. But I really think art is, for me--it's so cliche--but art is for everyone, and artists need to create for people out in the world who are non-artists, so they can see a different perspective of the world--they can hear something, see something, do something different that will be better and change, possibly even change your mind and then change how you operate in your daily life. I mean, that is a profoundly important thing that art can do is change how people think. And I mean, that's powerful. It's very powerful. [00:05:02] Rick Wright: You know, I think there's some responsibilities that the artists have. I think honesty and, personal, personal perspectives. I think there's things that happen in this world that we need artists, creatives, performers to react to, to communicate about, guide, challenge. I think that's one of the more important jobs right now. There are brilliant, passionate artists out there that are that are making a difference. And I think that's super important. And I'll be honest that I don't necessarily think my own work is challenging any norms in society, per se, but I think those that are out there doing that really have my, my respect and I, I value that we all have a duty just to be honest with ourselves and you don't have to put up a front, you know, just be, be the person you are, do the work that you want to do and put it out there. You can choose how much of yourself to put out there. I mean maybe you're a little bit conservative by nature and that's fine, but you know, just those, those little, little pieces of truth are, are valuable. [00:06:15] Roman Mykyta: I think the most important role of an artist is to be truthful about reality and how they see it. And along with that, to be honest, that opens up a lot of different doors, whether being truthful and honest is being very joyful and expressing the beauty in life, or it can be expressing the pain that we all feel, and then the way you treat that, whether it's with humor, with seriousness or drama, I feel like there's a place for all of those things. I'm sensitive personally about not overloading audience with what's negative. [00:06:52] It's really important to be honest, to be raw and to express pain, honestly, but in a way, I feel like we are so inundated by bad news, and just other dramas and political things that I almost feel like if we're so out of balance that way, I would encourage artists to-- it gives the audience a bread and life from the other side. 'Cause in my personal life, I feel like in the people who I know we need more of a goodness color and light than we need more anger, but ultimately it's important to just be honest and truthful. [00:07:30] Danielle Guy: Once again, going into the true thing, just tell the truth. I hear this all the time with actors where they're, where they say, "Oh, acting is my escape." And that's, those typically are the actors that are kind of hard to work with because it's not an escape. A lot of these characters are created out of some sense of reality. And I feel like we do them a dishonor by taking someone's potential life or potential situation and putting it on as a mask to escape the reality in our own. So it's just, you know, doing honor to the text doing honor to what has come before us. [00:08:09] Erin Paige: To be authentic. I think it's vital as an artist to be as true to yourself as you possibly can. To be as authentic--oh, I just got covered in goosebumps-- that's, that's how I know I'm speaking from my authentic self, I always tell people. Yeah, just to be as authentic as possible, and that serves others. If you're not showing up in your most soulful or authentic self, you are denying those of us that are looking at your art, watching your art, listening to your art--you're denying us that divine gift. So please, please, please. think it's vital for artists to be responsible in their artwork by being as authentic as possible. And that's, that's what I have to say about that. [00:09:04] Elizabeth Cooper: I would say being true to yourself and your passion. A lot of art is--it's interpretation of what, what you see around you and what inspires you. So you know, I would say that it's really being yourself and letting yourself and what you see shine through. [00:09:27] Jeremiah Kauffman: I can't speak for all artists, but for a lot of us, the role of an artist is to, to move people and to hopefully elicit, inspire some kind of change in others. Some kind of, so, all right, you know, it could be producing positive change in society. So the role of the artist might be, of some artists might be, let's take-- the, the novels that were written about the canneries and the meat packing plants. That was a form of art, but it was designed to move people to make change and make positive change in society. The role of the artist is to entertain. You know, the role of the artist is to help other people love more deeply, to feel more deeply, to elicit joy, to elicit critical thinking too. Encourage people to also become artists. See, if I'm writing and I don't inspire anyone else to write then what was, what's the point? You know, I hope that as a writer, I inspire other people to write. So an artist is also someone who, whose role is to encourage the continuation of art. [00:10:45] Katheryn Krouse: I think an important role for an artist is to just be authentic and true to, true to themselves. And even if that's not always the most likable approach to things, I mean, I think that that's an important role. [00:11:02] Heidi Loubser: So, okay. Maybe this isn't a role but I think I would say--to be telling, or, you know, in dance or other forms we're not telling, but to be sharing the truth. I think of artists in some ways is a huge part of like the global marketing team. I mean, if you think about what people's opinions or worldviews or just what they believe about it, any number of things, art is often a huge part of, of how they got there. You know, we're not creating those ideas obviously, but I think artists are usually the ones expressing them or propagating them or suggesting that this is closer to what it should be, what we should be fighting for. [00:11:47] Or even if it's, as artists are bringing joy and we're just bringing some humor and laughter and, and entertainment, you know, which is totally real as well, that's suggesting that that's valuable in life, right? So in my mind, there's a lot of different things you could be expressing with art, but it's the most important thing for me is just that what you're expressing is, is true. It lines up with reality, which doesn't mean that it's not fictional. I mean, obviously you could do a play about a fictional story, but you're, you're sharing truth through that. Not that it's factually correct, but you're, you're promoting and you're encouraging things in life that are really important and matter. [00:12:33] Grace Strachan: To share their gift. To make sure that everybody is aware of their gift and to be proud of their gift. I think there's too many artists that, you know, I mean, I always remember hearing people say, "Oh, they want to be an artist. What are they going to do to make a living?" I find that sad. I find that very negative. I think what's wonderful about life now is that most people have more than one means of income. So artists have the advantage. Now there's a lot of ways that they can make a living, maybe not making okay, total living, but at least help support their art. And so I think the biggest thing is that people, when you have somebody that shows artistic talent, nurture that and, and have them share that with the world. [00:13:27] Julie Ulstrup: Well, I think it's to connect. To connect with my self as an artist who I am so that I can connect with the people in my art and the people who are looking at my art, experiencing my art for many, many years. [00:13:50] Kevin Dinneen: You know, I'm going to kind of cheat because I think it's up to each individual artist, and I think all of the roles of art are important. So you can think of the role of an artist portraying a social issue to bring about positive change. That's so important, but if you have an artist who is really gifted and really enjoys entertaining, a lighthearted entertainment, then I think that that's where they need to go. Then that is just as important of a role as, you know, bringing a social change or whatever, 'cause that's also a social change actually. And maybe, maybe an artist feels that he or she is is called to educate through art or inform through art. I think that they are all important and I feel like it's important for each artist to embrace his or her passion, and not conform to what they were, what he or she was told is art. [00:14:56] Oh, it's not art if, you know, people can understand it. Or it's not, it's not art unless it's on canvas, or it's not art, unless it's to the point where it gets into a museum, or whatever it is that that people are told is not art. If you're it, whatever it is, I think whatever an artists' passion is, I think it's important for them to play that role. 'Cause they're going to do it better than if they were doing something else and they're going to do it better than someone else who has a different passion as well. So I think they're all important. And the most important thing is to follow your passion. [00:15:34] Elna VanGreuning: I think they give other people a way of escaping. Not everybody, you know, has the talent to be an artist. Or maybe everybody's got the talent. We just don't work on it, maybe. You know, I always think I can't sing or draw. So therefore I want to, you know, stress that art can be different forms. And I think artists brings a form of art to us that maybe we cannot make ourselves or participate in, but can appreciate. And I think it's very important because I think we can't just work all the time. I think it's a stress. It helps with stress and I just think for your own psyche, it's wonderful to enjoy something beautiful. [00:16:27] Liza Lomax: The most important role of an artist... being themselves and being their authentic selves. I think, you know, artists take a risk at everything that they do because you could be easily rejected or easily accepted. And if you show your authenticity through your work in anything that you do, not just art, but I mean, we're talking about art right now, but to show your authenticity through your work, makes it very valuable. [00:16:58] Trenna Reed: think probably connecting to the audience, whether it be the person looking at your painting, or the person watching you perform, or watching the movie you created, just finding some way to connect to the people who are consuming that art. [00:17:27] Kent Rader: I think to bring joy and happiness and a different end, to bring a different perspective, but especially today, we have a lot of difficulty in the world and if we can help someone through that, that's what I think we should be doing. [00:17:42] Meghan Spencer: I think creation, and this is something that I've been thinking about a lot, actually in the last, in the last year. And even in the last six months as we've been dealing with all, all the crazy that is 2020. I think for me, especially, but I think for artists in general, creation is the part that matters. And we have this like funny joke at our studio of saying, "Well, that's a choice." And normally it means like you're doing something silly or weird or whatever. But at its core, it really means that as an artist, your choices are all that matter. And I can have an opinion about your choices, but at the end of the day, they're your choices to make. And making those choices of how you want to make the art that you're making is on you, and whether or not other people like it or agree with it, or even understand it, doesn't really matter. [00:18:52] Lindsey Dinneen: So I believe the most important role of an artist is to share beauty, hope and joy with the world. And I realize that there are so many things that artists can express. And I love that. I love that art can tackle very difficult topics and open up conversations about things that need to be discussed. And I, I so admire that. I think that there's a place for that, but I think ultimately, opening up those conversations and dealing with those difficult topics can lead to hope and optimism that the world can be changed and that things can be improved. And whether that just starts with the one person who was inspired by that, or whether that spreads out through an audience that thinks, "Wow, I've never looked at it that way before. And I am empowered. I am empowered to make a change. " And I think it's so important that artists can take life and give it this gorgeous rich goodness. [00:20:16] Robyn Jameson: Well, the role of the artist is to create and to create authentically from the heart. I think the role of the artist also includes sharing what they've created. [00:20:28] Lantz McDonald: I think honesty is probably the highest up there for me. I think that with a lot of art that is deemed not great or not good, it often has to do with the amount of honesty being portrayed. And if your sole focus is to just make a dollar or trying to, you know, slam an idea in somebody's face, it's not going to come off as well as if you're pulling from your heart and expressing yourself with honesty. There's, there's satire and stuff like that, but at its core, it still has an honest or a truth to it. And I think quality of art is very dependent on that truth-telling. So I'd say for anyone who's wanting to be an artist or who is an artist--let's face it, we all are at some extent-- just be honest with yourself and you will absolutely make something great. [00:21:28] Helen Ransom: I think it's storytelling and it's trying to capture that moment, whatever that moment is. And, and the role of the artist is to tell that story the way they see it. And, you know, so for me, it was like that competition image that I've entered of the mom who was just done with the day and trying to capture that in a way that maybe people who, you know, if some men could see that be like, "Oh, that's why the dishes are still dirty when I come home, because she's done. She's done what she can to keep the kids alive." And I think the role of the artist is just to tell that story and to draw attention to things in the world. [00:22:11] Crystal Tiehen: You know, it's interesting because I wouldn't even call it a role. I believe we are all artists because we are all co-creators. This is a belief system that I, I choose to really lean into is that we are all co-creators. And so having it as a role is something to say, I'm going to prioritize this. I'm going to prioritize the fact that I have the capability to be creative. I have the capability to be an artist and, and really being able to open up those doors for anyone that is willing to embrace it. [00:22:56] Alden Miller: The showing or expression of the art, because it does no good for it to be in your head, in your head alone. [00:23:04] Emerson Mertens: So I think for me, the most important role of an artist is really to share truth, hope, and beauty through my art. And that may look different depending on the type of art or the topic. It might not always be obvious on the surface, but I think that at least one of those things usually lies at the heart of nearly everything we share as artists. So to give an example of what I mean, an artist may create a piece that reflects a very difficult subject. So it might not really be positive or, or joyful in the presentation because of what that subject is, but there might, there may still be that truth that can be learned from that or a spark of hope that's conveyed to the audience. So no matter if we're painting a picture of colorful, pretty butterflies in a field, or I'm choreographing a dance about a really hard struggle like anxiety or loss. I believe that as artists, we should always try to look for those opportunities to bring that truth, hope, or beauty into our art in, in a way that really highlights the meaning and the purpose behind it. [00:24:30] Kim Pierce: Ah, well, from the perspective of a makeup artist, it can be a little different from any other medium because makeup artistry quite often is to serve a client's needs. And once you're not necessarily putting out your own artistic vision, so for headshots or weddings, or even if you're doing like a commercial photo shoot where you have a director and they're telling you what they need or want, you're fulfilling someone else's vision. So, in these instances, my role is to execute that dream, that picture from someone else's head that I've never seen, and adapt that to the client or the model's facial structure and their skin tone and make whatever vision they have come true for that. And so that role is important to my livelihood and it also brings joy. It brings fulfillment when the client is satisfied, but that doesn't always fulfill what I need creative creatively, if that makes sense. I feel like I'm always grappling for an opportunity to serve up my own idea of beauty and my own artistic sense. But I think that part of your job as a makeup artist is to achieve both, you've got to satisfy the paying client every time obviously. And you also have to make sure you're taking time and any opportunity to nurture your own creativity, because I mean, otherwise you're going to burn out if you're just doing the same thing over and over, and you're never stretching yourself, eventually you're going to be over it. So only until you can manage both roles as a makeup artist where you're fulfilling the client's needs, but you're also edifying your creative spirit, I guess just like cultivating that within yourself. We can't really move to the next level of artistry until we've met both of those needs. [00:26:24] Anh Lee: I believe it's really getting their story out there because again, stories can come in so many different forms from sculptures and ceramics and everything that you can imagine. I know a lot of people of color are really trying to get their stories out there in the industry. And definitely there has been much more opportunity for them than there has ever before though. So, in COVID-19 the opportunities now, people can start connecting with each other much more easily, rather than going face-to-face and location that might cost them, might have much more cost to an artist anticipated. So really taking the opportunity now to share these stories, or even put these stories in development. So that way they could bring more awareness to the world or even enhance a beauty of a particular culture. [00:27:18] Maggie Rader: Oh, to connect, I'd say. You know, we were joking before we started rehearsing. It's like, "Oh, why does live theater still exist when movies are around?" And if you mess up, you can just start over and you only have to do it once then. But that's why live theater is still around. It's so much about connection. And I feel like out of all the, and maybe that's why I love the stage. It's, I feel like when you're doing live theater, you get to connect so much more than in other artistic mediums that I love, and enjoy, but it's not my particular passion. So yeah, I think the most important role is, or thing you can do, is to connect. [00:27:59] Tessa Priem: When I first heard you ask this question on the first podcast that I listened to, one of my thoughts was honesty. Just honesty, honestly relating whatever it is that you're trying to create. I suppose I've also heard that art shows us what it means to be human. I mean, but that, well, I guess that kind of goes back to your former question. But, I think, for me personally, as an artist, like it's my big goal to be real and honest with people as I possibly can. I don't want to lie or hide because as you mentioned, it is very scary to reveal what you've made. It's very scary to reveal yourself. So in that it does require a good bit of bravery. And so I guess for me, I really just try to work on being real and honest, but I also want to be like lighthearted and silly at times too, because I can be a little bit serious sometimes. So that bringing that joy and fun, and I listened to your podcast, Lindsey, and I know that's what you've wanted to bring to people through your company, like the sense of joy and happiness and people's lives. [00:29:24] Shari Augustine: I don't know generally speaking, but for me, I enjoy sharing things with people to hopefully make an impact on them or make a difference in their lives. You know, one way or the other, whether it is looking at things from a different perspective or just appreciating the beauty, feeling the music or feeling the movement. When I was doing, I did the liturgical dancing for a while and when I did that--liturgical dancing is dancing in church--and it was always my prayer that the spirit moving in me would move the spirit in the person who was watching. So that's kind of, I like to have an impact on people by sharing my art. [00:30:23] Debbie Dinneen: Keep an open mind and try, just keep trying and try anything. And then, teach if you can, if you have the opportunity. [00:30:34] Joe Pilgram: I believe that as artists, we should hopefully be able to, when people see it, that it reflects whether it's the personal things going on with that person, or maybe it's things going on around them that, that, content shapes context, is it? No, I want to say it's the other way around that context shapes content. And a Rodney Mullen, professional skater that I've told you about several times that that's, what he talks about is when he sees, you're going out and he talks about how the environment, how can the environment change the very nature of what I do. And I think as artists, that's an ebb and flow ever changing. A lot of the times that as artists, I don't think we ever stand still. [00:31:33] And like you, hope to find, you hope to be content. I think that's what we strive for is to be content, you know, or definitely happy with something that we're sharing with the world that you're, you're putting out there. I think, you know, being, being content with it is know, a, a big thing with art. We can always nitpick and tear things, you know, make things better. We feel, but, it never seems like your work is done. You could come back two years later and look at the same piece that you did and feel differently about, you know, your, your concept of what it was based on. And, you and I have probably experienced this with choreographers that set something on you, and then they say, "Oh, so-and-so is coming back to restage this piece on everyone." And in your mind, as an individual artist, as a dancer, you think, "Oh, this'll be easy. I already know this piece inside of the house," and the choreographer comes in, and there's a lot that's changed. [00:32:51] And, you know, to, to maybe finalize on that is, you know, you see different quotes around. And even at my work, one of my work buddies has a thing posted up that says something along the lines of "Perfection is the enemy of the good." Like, you can have something that's really good, but maybe not perfect, but to get something perfect, it's like, you're going to reduce morale. You can tear yourself up terribly, emotionally trying to get something 100% perfect. And finding that contentment and going, "Yeah, I think I'm, I'm okay with that." [00:33:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I hope you enjoyed all of the answers to the question, "what's the most important role of an artist." As you can tell, we have such a diverse group of guests who have come through the show and it's been so much fun to hear their perspectives on some of these really interesting questions that lead us to think deeper about. [00:33:54] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:34:04] Different aspects of art. So thank you for joining me. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I'd love. If you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time.

In today's unique episode, I have compiled some of our more recent guests' answers to the question, "What is art to you?" This delightful compilation brings a plethora of unique, honest, and inspiring answers to that question, and I'm excited to share part two of this series with you today. Enjoy!    Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 76 - "What is Art to You?" - Part 2 [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life." [00:00:12] Roman: "All I can do is put my heart in to the world." [00:00:15] Elizabeth: "It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough." [00:00:23] Elna: "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful." [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and today I have a very unique episode that I'm really excited to share with you. It is a compilation of the different, amazing answers I've received over the last year and some change to the question, "What is art to you?" I love asking this question, because the answers I get are always so diverse and beautiful and unique and challenging. And I just can't wait to share the insights that I've gathered over the year with you. So enjoy and I'll catch you next time. [00:01:14] Mike Huerter: Well, you know, art takes many forms: dance, acting, obviously drawing, painting. So I mean, for me, I think I probably gravitate more towards the acting, dancing role of art then, but that doesn't take away anything from any other art form, by any means, you know, musicians and all that. My sons and daughters are very musical. I love music. I, I wish I could play it, but I can't. So I'm in total admiration of people who can. I mean, it's such a gift that they can just-- my son's trying to, you know, he was trying to teach us to harmonize some time. They say, "Dad, it's right there in front of you." And it's like, "No, you don't understand. It's not right there in front of me. It might be for you." 'Cause he's got that ability where he can just pick out notes and play them, that kind of thing. So this would be a very sad world that any form of art . I think art-- it saddened me to see you know, some schools, they, it's not very high on their priority list. I think it's a great outlet for people to express their feelings as things that are going on, maybe emotionally in their lives. It's a great outlet for them, for them to, to bring that out without actually, without actually having to sit down and talk to somebody about it. I mean, they can express it in whatever form they want to. And it's, I think art's more for us, you know, the people are performing it than it is for the people that we're actually presenting it to. [00:02:38] Gregg Gonzales: I think art to me is about self-expression in its truest form. That's why I think about the work that I do with my authors. They, they don't think about, about it as writing, but if you're speaking it, you're expressing yourself. You know it, to me, it's no different than if you were to sit at a computer and write, or pull out a pen and write in a journal just as the same way, you know, traditional authors do it. It's no different than someone sculpting a piece of raw clay into something beautiful, or a painter taking a blank canvas and creating something from their own self expression. So to me, art is the ultimate form of self-expression. [00:03:21] Jami Robben: I would say art is just anything that expresses someone and it doesn't take any sort of level of talent or anything like that. It just is something that you express yourself with and it makes you happy. And it's something you're able to share with others and make them happy with it too. [00:03:40] JaJa Smith: Art is expression. Art is a hundred percent expression. You know, whether you are a painter or you are a, a sketch artist or a actor, or whatever your canvas is, it's this release of energy. Some people don't know how to articulate themselves. So for them to be able to have this outlet, it's this beautiful thing. And then when it comes out, sometimes it's angry. Sometimes it's heartbroken. I remember very vividly my dad passed away on the night of an acting class, but I had to go because I didn't know how to handle my emotions outside of that. And you know, my, my acting class is my family, but I just needed that, that outlet, you know, it was just one of those things. It's like air almost. I think for a lot of other artists out there, I think art is their microphone to tell the world how they really feel, and in the way that best articulates it for them. [00:04:44] Darnell Benjamin: I guess the best way I would describe art--art is perspective. Art is when someone shares their perspective through a specific medium whether that be film, theater, dance , visual , music. I mean, the list goes on. It's perspective. I think art is a person's perspective through a medium. I know that sounds very simple, but I think that that's, that's how I would define what art is. [00:05:16] Emily Moores: I know maybe this isn't like the right answer, but I actually don't really worry about defining art because I think there's a lot of people who push, you know, especially when you think about like the past. A hundred years where people are like doing social practices, art, or they're switching into doing installations and all of these norms were broken, but they're still really meaningful ways of engagement. Sometimes I think if we get too caught up in trying to define something, then we can lose our ability to be open. And, and so I'm not-- I guess I'm not as concerned with having a definition. I know for me, I definitely practice within like the realm of installation and within, you know, making wall works. You know, like maybe I'll go back to making paintings or drawings, but like if I were to walk into a gallery and there's like a performance and it's mostly dance, I don't feel like I wouldn't necessarily want to adhere to a definition. [00:06:20] Harlem Lennox: So to me, art can be just about anything. I don't like telling people like, "Oh, that painting -- that's not art. That will never be art." I look at art from a very broad sense where people will probably be like, "Well, then nothing is art if everything is art." But I look at, so for example, my daughter can make something, or my son, or my other son can make something, and I will look at it as art and I will seriously react to it the same way I would react to it if somebody showed me any piece of art. I look at nature as a form of art. The way that each tree is beautifully unique. And I have an obsession with trees and the way each tree is beautifully unique. And the simple fact that there's all these different changes and stuff like that within the universe. [00:07:26] And so, 'cause I was actually thinking to myself last night, like even after-- you know, this is so morbid, but even after we're all gone and maybe, you know, like the dinosaurs, humans are no longer on the earth or whatever-- like the world, the earth is still going to be making art. I look at a lot of different things as art and I define art is anything that gives a person meaning. If you can look at it and feel something within yourself, within your soul deeply. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's a positive or negative feeling, if you can feel something and it makes you think, then I consider it as art. [00:08:12] Christina Stanton: So I think art helps us understand and appreciate and navigate life. I mean, it is life, but art bleeds over into every section of our lives and it just helps us through life. And you know, personally ,the most joy and love and sadness, the strongest emotions I feel, is through art. I'm pretty straight as an arrow and and other places in my life. But nothing makes me feel the human experience more than art does. [00:08:50] Jeffrey Holst: So for me, art is, is any kind of creative endeavor that's that allows the creator to express themselves. [00:09:00] Lucas Zellers: So for a while, I tried to come up with, with my own definition of this and I was sort of laboring under the impression that a definition that I hadn't written wasn't authentic. But I found one that I really liked. Elaine de Baton wrote this in his book," The Pleasures and Sorrows of Work." He said, "art is anything that points our thoughts in important yet neglected directions." [00:09:25] Kristin Beale: Ooh, so I define art as an outlet because that's what it is to me. It started as an outlet. And so now , it's turning into an outlet for me when I got hurt and all this stuff. And now it's an outlet for my creativity and for my humor and for my personality. Whereas before it was an outlet for my frustration. I mean, at times it still is not for my frustration, but an outlet for my frustration and my new experiences and kind of digesting the world around me. So it looks like for me, it looks like, you know, real life experiences are relatable things or just things that will make you laugh or things that's a way to entertain people. Yeah, so an outlet for my creativity. [00:10:05] Doug Motel: I think that art is when you actively step into creation and extend that, whatever, you know, whatever it is that created us has, I believe that whatever it is that created us has endowed us with the very same abilities, which is to create. And whenever you step into that and make a choice to create you are partaking in art. You are making art. [00:10:37] Gloria Grace Rand: Art, art to me is expression. And it, because it can have so many different forms and, and I think it is, it's a way of expressing who you are, what your thoughts and beliefs are and it's a way of being able to just communicate you through whatever different modality you find, whether that's writing, whether it's music, whether it's actual painting and drawing. Cause there's so many different ways to be able to express. So yeah, I think, I mean, that's what it is. It's a way of being able to express, express yourself out there in the world. [00:11:19] Donna Kay Yarborough: I think the best definition I have for it is connection. Like I mentioned earlier, that moment of unity is what makes live performance so much fun. I think any sort of art you've thrived for that point that the person who creates, meets with the person who observes and they share an awareness of some sort of information or perspective. You'll see a lot of people that say, "I do my art for my sake and I don't care what other people think." And quite honestly, I feel like that's a very selfish approach to art. You can be true to yourself and still honor the audience at the same time, because it's a symbiotic relationship. You are not an artist in a vacuum. We all exist because we are in the presence of each other. [00:12:21] Christopher John Garcia: Art is that thing you do that is mostly useless, but ultimately important. It is the shape of the tool, not the use of the tool, I think is the way I, I wrote it in a paper once when I was trying to be smart. It's really about something that brings you an emotional experience of some sort that isn't just because of what it does, but what it is. And so, you know, we have paintings around the house 'cause my wife's mother's a actual painter who paints actual paintings. And every time I see one of them, it makes me feel hungry and it's because there's all sorts of food in it. But, you know, I consider that to be art because it draws an emotion out of me. [00:13:08] Jeff Leisawitz: Art is anything that a human creates with the intention of expression. [00:13:16] Natalie Cordone: I think art to me is self-expression in a way where you're attempting to communicate something that is incommunicable to another person. [00:13:27] Shawn Kilgore: That's good. I think for me, it's the opportunity to escape. [00:13:33] Corry MacDonald: Oh, art to me is pure expression from anybody's soul: on a page, in a meal, it can be the way they garden, the way they put themselves together with their clothes, or sculpture, music. Oh, any pure expression from the soul. [00:13:52] Sandy Rodriguez: Well, I think that the dictionary definition would be simply something like, "the expression of human creativity and imagination to something such as a painting or a sculpture." Normally it's in visual form, but, personally, I think that it doesn't necessarily have to be in visual form. I think, for example, poetry can be a form of art. Certainly music can be a form of art as well. So I think it goes beyond, it goes beyond the visual. It's basically the application of creativity and imagination into something that speaks to others. I believe that would be the definition. [00:14:32] Sabrina Osso: Freedom. Freedom, and freedom is a two way street. I'm free and you're free. So that should be without harm, without anything negative. It is, it is freedom of expression. Just freedom. [00:14:49] Anthony Saldana: Hmm, well, art can be a lot of things. It's something that you can make. You know, you can express yourself in so many different ways and it doesn't matter the material that you use or the sense that you use. You can make something in two dimensional, three dimensional. You can use your body as a dancer, like you, Lindsey, you're an artist, even though you say you can't do a drawing, but you can express yourself with your body. It's really about using your soul to basically express yourself to the world. [00:15:25] Jason Figueira: I think that art in a way is a advanced form of communication. It's trying to communicate something, not just with words, but with sounds, with touch, something that it can appeal to almost all five senses. And I think it's like a window into someone's experience that it goes beyond just saying spoken dialogue we use every day. It's really helps other people. It helps bring them into an environment where an artist would like them to be your image, shaping a whole new reality in a way. And it's amazing what you can do with art. I mean, just from one picture, someone can leave their present day and be transported into a whole new one. So art, yeah, I would say is a very highly advanced form of communication. [00:16:20] Sharon Glassman: I think it's a feeling generated by a selective something. So it could be a painting. It could be a dance. It could be a song, but I think it's that combination of created experience and emotion. [00:16:45] Christopher Boorman: Generally speaking, I would say art is some kind of documented experience or a worldview that is intended to evoke either thought or emotion in the observer. [00:16:58] Bryan Colley: I think art, in the grand scheme, art is, is how we communicate. It's, it's the most advanced form of communication. I mean, there's the obvious, you know, language-- you write a book and, and use words, and that's the obvious communication. But, and, and that works great if someone can speak that language, but not everyone does. And art is a way you can communicate that goes beyond language. And, and even as a playwright, of course I'm using words, but, but theater as a, as a way of communicating, it's, it's, it's, it's not just using words to tell a story. It's, it's putting, putting a scene on stage and communicating that experience. So you can communicate the experience, you can communicate emotions. I mean visual art is the way to communicate, you know, how do I describe the color blue? Well, I can, I can do a lot of words during it to tell you what blue is and never really explain it, but I can show you the color of blue and I can do, you know, a painting that shows you something you haven't seen before and communicates new ideas and thoughts and experiences. And I think that's kind of what art is all about and what, you know, it's what brings us together, humanity together, more than anything else. [00:18:30] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So my answer is very simple and I just feel art is creative expression, and I want to be really clear in saying that it can be any creative expression. Crafting is art. Obviously, as you know, like dancing performance is art. Whether you are creating art in your bedroom or a professional studio, if this art ends up in the trash or hangs in a gallery, it's your creative expression and it's art. [00:18:59] Patricia Karen Gage: I think art is liberating and it is the, probably the most relevant document of history that exists. [00:19:13] Sally Brown: Art is everything. Art is the way to see. I mean, if I was going to get particular, I would say it's something that is, it's expressed. But if you look at things in different ways, anything can be art. [00:19:25] Will Blaine: I think that, that art is tied up in an emotional expression, for me anyway. I think many people do art for different things, but I think it is always tied up with the emotion that you're feeling. It's very, it's very deeply emotional, whatever it is and that's, and that's why I don't think that art has to be anything particular. You don't have to draw a tree or a bush or a person, you know, you can just-- you'll see how the colors blend, and you can see how the shapes go together. You can see what space there is and, you know, whatever you're feeling that day, it affects what you're going to put down on that page. And it that's, that's, that's so fundamental to what art is. I think that defines what it is. [00:20:09] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I'm the broad definitions guy. So I mean the, the cop-out answer would be to just say, I'd accept whatever definition anyone wants to give, but trying to be a little more thoughtful about it. How do I define art? I would say, I would say it takes a, there has to be an element of artifice for me. In, and even saying this as a storyteller who stands on stage telling personal stories, I think there does have to be an element of someone presenting themselves to someone else and presenting something created, something that there is an acknowledgement between the person presenting it and the person receiving it, that there is an element of unreality to this. That's pretty vague, but that's the first thing that's sprang into my head. So I think I'll stick with it. [00:21:01] Aunia Kahn: So, you know, art, art is whatever it wants to be. And I, I'm really in love with all aspects of creativity. There's so many things that I'm sure that even people that are listening to that don't recognize as art or things that are going on that people aren't seeing, performance art being one of them, the collage community. I mean, there's just so many different types of art and it can be whatever it can be, whatever it wants to be, whatever you want to call art. If I want to put a, a rock on my desk and put a little hair clip on top of it, and I want to call it a sculpture, like, that's what I feel art is. I feel art is really anything you want it to be and anybody can be outside and go, yeah, that's a hair clip in a rock. Like that's not art, you know? And that's fine. Like, that's fine. But what we feel is it, how, how are we expressing ourselves? And if that makes me feel something, it's putting that hair clip on that rock does something for me, that's all that it really matters because art is really not about the viewer. It's more about the person doing it. Now, I know there's plenty of people who create art as you know for social justice and political reasons. Like I get that, like, it is more for the viewer. Like I get it. And maybe the people are doing it or having a really great experience around it as well. [00:22:25] But when I think of art, I think about the core aspects of how is the person creating it, feeling about it? What are they getting from it? And that is really all that should matter to an artist. First of course, there could be other layers, like an onion on top of it, of how they want to take that out into the world. And if they want to take it out into the world, because there's a lot of people out there who are doing art that nobody even knows exists. Like my partner is also a gallery artist. And over the last year, he's decided he's not doing public art anymore. He's-- not public art, like, you know, public art in public places, but putting his art into galleries. And he has been doing a really private study of his own work and totally changed his style as well. And there's plenty of artists out there that we'll never see, we'll never get to experience, but it's all about the experience for ourselves while we're creating the work. [00:23:22] Even if we're creating it just for commerce. And that's fine too. If you want to be an artist and you want to create it for commerce and you know what people like, and you know how to sell it, good for you. You know your reason behind it, it doesn't make it any less art than somebody who's creating something for galleries or creating something, you know, just for themselves or maybe even for their parent or their best friend. So that's kind of what art is to me, the experience of creating something. What it does, how, how we experience it, and then the decision of how we're going to take that further if we want to take it further. [00:23:58] Justin Alcala: I think I may have said it before that art is creation through the aptitude and inspiration in order to communicate something amazing. And for me, you know, it's using what's playful, awkward, and a little dorky to tap into the human element and entertain. [00:24:14] Natsune Oki: Since I'm such like so heavy into what I do with it, I thought education may be the only thing that I can think of when I think about art is our possibility and our future. [00:24:26] Rachel Moore: The first thing that comes into my mind for what it's worth is, is, is actually my friend's definition of music. And she says that in order for something to be music, it has to have a rhythm. And I, yeah, I kind of feel like I could apply that to almost all art forms, right? Like I like to do a lot of photography too, you know, just, just like in, you know, amateur photography, whatever. But I like to find like, okay, what's in the front of this photo, what's in the back? What are the patterns of this flower that I'm taking a picture of? Right? Like what's the rhythm of this. There's something in there and I could probably write or talk more about this at some point, but there's something in there about the rhythm of music or visual art or dance or writing, especially I definitely, I, when I was a newspaper copy editor, I always have to check myself because I tended to like the headlines that sounded the best rather than maybe were the best written. So I'm like, okay, wait, it has to be accurate too, not just sound great. So yeah, something about that, that the rhythm and the sound. [00:25:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope you thoroughly enjoyed all of the answers to the question, "What is art to you?" I love hearing those responses. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I have reliving these moments of inspiration and beauty. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:25:58] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I welcome Kelsey Aicher! Kelsey is a trapeze artist and coach, as well as the Artistic Director of Aerheart and the Training Company Program Director for Kansas City Aerial Arts. She shares her experience with mental health issues and why she's so passionate about opening conversations about it. She shares with us her heart behind her latest show "n0rmal" (premiering in Kansas City and on livestream soon!) and some of her exciting future plans. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is part of the show image for "n0rmal"!)   Get in touch with Kelsey Aicher: www.kansascityaerialarts.com | kelsey@kansascityaerialarts.com Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 75 - Kelsey Aicher [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Kelsey Aicher. She is a trapeze artist and coach. She is the Artistic Director of Aerheart and also the training director for Kansas City Aerial Arts for their training company. She's the director for that. And I am just absolutely thrilled that she is joining us here today. Thanks so much for being here, Kelsey. [00:02:43] Kelsey Aicher: Thank you for having me. [00:02:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background, maybe how you got involved in art in general, and then specifically in aerial arts and let us know a little bit about what you're doing now to, if you don't mind. [00:02:58] Kelsey Aicher: Yeah. So I have a very strange accidental journey to where I am right now. I've always been really good at math. And that's honestly what got me into art was, I was just, I skipped a grade in math and in third grade and was always advanced. And I was so bored in all of my math classes in high school because I just felt it was too easy. So I started writing short stories instead of paying attention in class. And that's when I fell in love with writing. I started taking creative writing classes, realized I love writing short stories and wondered if I could make a profit or like make a career out of it. So I started studying screenwriting by reading every book that I could. And when I was a junior in high school, I took a summer screenwriting camp at Drexel University and studied screenwriting intensely with the professors and fell in love, went to NYU at first and then switched to Columbia College to finish my Bachelor's in Screenwriting. [00:04:01] And then my life pulled me into Portland. My ex-husband got a job there and I didn't know what to do. And so I was freelancing as a screenwriter doing commercial scripts. I started taking aerial classes to do something, to feel, to feel productive. It was just a hobby. And then a year later I started performing and coaching. And a year after that, I was hired professionally to perform trapeze and just somehow accidentally became a trapeze artist. I don't think that's most people's journey. And now moving to Kansas City, I moved here four years ago. I've been able to combine my love of writing and my aerial arts by writing circus stage shows for the training company, student company, and the professional company. [00:04:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's amazing. I love that you've been able to incorporate both of your passions into this one cool endeavor that you've been able to undertake. So that's, that's really interesting. So, like you said, sort of the accidental everything coming together, but it sounds like it, it came together pretty, pretty, perfectly, so that's, that's great. So you talked about, you know, starting with the background in, in writing. And so I'm curious how that transition has been, because you were talking about screenplays and whatnot. So, so how have you found that background to be obviously incredibly helpful as you plan out shows, but then also, how has it changed or evolved over the years just because it's necessary to do so with producing a, an aerial show versus let's say a movie? [00:05:45] Kelsey Aicher: So starting at NYU for college, they have your freshman year, you have all the --all dramatic writing students are combined to a class. So it's playwrights, TV writers, and screenwriters. And the first semester, all we did was study plays. And then the second semester we started moving into TV and films. So I actually got a lot of training in playwriting as well as part of my education into screenwriting. When I write a show: one, I think just in general, any type of writer, whether it's short story, novels, whatever, there's still always standard structures of a story. They're generally three acts and character development, multiple plot points. So just understanding story, I think, helps with creating any type of show on stage. Even if it's silent, like ours are-- I shouldn't say silent, but free of dialogue, like ours are-- in a circus show. But having the playwriting understanding actually helps me more. I treat it like I'm writing a musical, so I still outline all my habits and stuff like that like I do for screen writing. I write like my treatment, my outlook. [00:07:01] But then when I think about it, conceptually, I think of it like a musical, because a musical has this narrative story, but then the idea of having a musical number where you're just singing is so removed from reality that it's like a large moment that's just capturing one tiny little feeling. And that's kind of what I do with aerial is like, okay, we're having this story flowing through. And now we have this character locks eyes with this character. And instead of singing a song about it, we're going to have three aerialists on silks doing a whole dance that's showing how these two characters have just fallen in love at first sight. [00:07:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah. I can completely see that. It's so helpful to have that background of understanding the, the building blocks of creating a story in order to translate it to an art form that you really can't do as much with as far as-- well, you could, I suppose with dialogue-- but traditionally you don't. So yeah, I think that's, that's really neat. And I'm curious, has there been one show in particular that you've worked on, perhaps that has been the most difficult to translate from your concept in your head and like, "I know I want to get these messages across" to put it on, you know, an aerial production where they can, they can interact with each other? Yes, you can see those very human moments and these connections, but still to get across your main point, you know, what was, what has been one of the most challenging that you've experienced so far? [00:08:36] Kelsey Aicher: I think the one that has not actually been released yet. I wrote a show for the training company, Kansas City Aerial Arts called "The Spaces Between," and it's very conceptual. I started writing it-- honestly, I think it was the first show I started to write. But it just didn't make sense to have them start with the students, start with like a really highly conceptual show. And so I put it on hold for several years and we finally were doing it to debut on April 3rd, 2020. So we spent six months building up for this show, getting everything ready. And the three weeks before the show, we shut down the whole studio. And so we actually just filmed it in this past April, April 2021, and it's still in the editing process, so I haven't seen it yet. So that's why I'm interested to see if it goes across. [00:09:33] In the past I've written really, really narrative shows. We've did one about the story of Prometheus and the one that we did before "Spaces Between" was called "Masked: A Superhero Love Story." And it was very clear that here's our hero, here's our villain. And they fall in love and like everything that's happening. So generally I go very narrative where like one person is playing a character and it's the whole through line. With "The Spaces Between," there was a narrator that was just telling the story about growing up, dealing with parents' divorce and death of her sister and escaping, using her imagination to escape what was the stress of what was happening in her life and going to your imagination by thinking of like the worlds that are created in the space inside of bubble or the space between two pages of a book. So it's interesting to make things really, really highly conceptual, where people are just like in normal clothes. And it's not really obvious. They're not heavy characters. Even if the narrator is talking about bubbles beforehand, will people be able to tell that these three lyra performers are supposed to be fairies come to life in this magical world between bubbles? [00:10:46] So I, I think that that's the hardest one, but I also don't know yet the end results, since it hasn't been released yet. It's not fully edited. So I'm when we interested to see if the whole concept and idea that comes across. I hope it does, but I know that that's definitely-- it's a lot harder to convey a concept, especially when we're doing everything very conceptual anyway. Like falling in love is easier to do with dialogue than with aerial, but at least we can create a lot of set up with the right music and costuming and movement to convey it, than trying to convey something like-- I'm trying to think of an example. Oh, there's one where it is-- they're portraying the space between notes in music and on trapeze. And whether that's going to come across or not, I don't know. [00:11:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. You know, on some level I think every time I write and produce a show is, you know, I, I have some level of confidence having been able to produce shows that I'm proud of in the past, but there's always that, you know, when you produce something new, is it, is it going to read, is it going to come across to your audience or did you just create this cool thing in your head that everyone's like, "oh yeah, that was interesting," but they don't quite get. So I can certainly relate to that. But I'm excited for that, that show. That sounds really interesting and unique. And I think, I think that will be a really cool concept to watch. Well, a series of concepts to, to watch in a, in an aerial show specifically. Well, I know that you're currently working on a show that is coming up pretty quickly here, just a few weeks away. And I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing that. I know it's a very, you know, personal thing for you. And I don't want to give anything away ahead of time. I want you to speak to it, but I would love if you would share just a little bit about maybe your next upcoming production that is finally live again. So exciting. [00:12:56] Kelsey Aicher: I am very excited to be back to live theater. It is, I don't enjoy filming things that were meant for stage, despite my screenwriting background. Yeah. So I am making, I've directed the student company before. This is my first time directing our professional company, Aerheart. It is also my first time directing a show that I'm performing in since I'm in Aerheart, but the show is called "n0rmal." Doesn't sound so exciting, but I want to spell this out. We're spelling it lowercase n, the number zero, r m a l. I put the zero in because I wanted to show that like no one is free from mental health or no one is untouched by mental health topics. Like everyone is affected. We're not alone. So I put the zero in there, one, to make the spelling a little bit quirkier, but to, to show that like we're all in this together, no one is exempt from dealing with mental illness or mental health issues. And that's the subject of the show we are talking about trying to normalize talking about mental health and suicide prevention. [00:14:07] Yes, you mentioned that it is a more of a personal story or personal project for me. One, in the pandemic, I saw a lot of my friends have more mental health issues. And for me, I went deeper into my depression, which I've been dealing with since I was 14. And more on a very personal level, I had an addiction to self-harm, to cutting specifically when I was in high school, and I struggled a lot with it. I was hospitalized in college for self harm and I have struggled on and off, but I've been pretty good in my adult years. And during the pandemic with everything being as hard as it was and depressing that it was, I picked up the habit again and it was a struggle and it was a thing that I didn't like. And so I resumed therapy and got back out of the, I stopped it before it became an addiction or a habit again. So I was already dealing with like, "okay, I'm having a tough time. And I know I'm not the only person having a tough time, but none of us are talking about it." [00:15:17] And I'm coming from a place of privilege like that I get to create art all the time. I have been in therapy. I am willing to talk about my own struggles with anyone. But not everyone feels that safety because there are so many reasons to feel like talking about having depression or having suicidal thoughts is taboo. It's going to be a sign of weakness or people just don't understand. And people end up feeling isolated and alone for that reason because they feel like they're the only one feeling what they're feeling. So I wanted to create a show that was to say like, "Hey, you aren't alone." We all experienced this thing in different ways, but it's okay to talk about it and there is support out there. So that's kind of how "n0rmal" started. [00:16:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, first of all, I just want to say, you know, for me personally, but just for, for the world, for people in general-- I, I'm so thankful that you are willing to, to address this and to address it in a way that brings people together and says you're not alone, that, that many of us struggle daily with various, you know, mental health concerns. And I think that, you know, I agree with you a lot of times we're led to feel like we're the only ones experiencing something, and that's just not true. And I've noticed for myself that the more honest and open I can be about my own struggles with, you know, with the appropriate people-- not, not everybody-- but with the appropriate people that there's this extremely supportive community in the feeling of, if I can be honest, that allows other people to be honest too. And then we can support each other, but if we don't know what's going on and we can't be honest, then we're stuck in this loop of, of feeling like we're alone because clearly nobody else is going through this. Everybody else has their lives together when that is so not true. So, yeah, I, so I really commend you for, for doing this, and I'm really curious to me, this sounds like one of those concepts that is extremely difficult to translate to an aerial show. So I'm curious how that process has gone for you. And are you sort of tackling different aspects of mental health per piece or is there like a very clear running narrative throughout the whole? [00:17:55] Kelsey Aicher: It is more the former. So I have a description that has some statistics and my, my apologies if this number is wrong. If you come see the show, the correct information is on the program, but it's-- I have a two paragraph description, one paragraph for each act, and the first act talks about some statistics. Like the first piece is called-- and I'm going to get this number wrong, I'm so sorry-- 48,481, I think is the number, which is the number of lives lost to suicide in the year 2020 in the US. Wow. Which is a lot. And so I start with the first act being a lot of statistics and things like psychosis, depression, and substance use disorder are three of the highest risk factors for suicide. Things like being a member of a minority community, especially LGBTQ, or having experienced post-traumatic stress disorder, veterans. There are a lot of risk factors that show signs like that go into complete suicide. And so the first act kind of covers a lot of the different warning signs or common risk factors that can lead to suicide. [00:19:28] And then in what I think is the hardest piece in the show, like not hardest physically, but the hardest piece to watch is an acro number where-- I'm in this piece, of course, my partner and I at the end commit suicide. And then the second act is more about like, okay, so we know that there are these problems that people are facing. There's these mental health issues. There are these risk factors. There are certain groups that are more at risk than others and it's really prevalent. So then the second act is about like, okay, so people might be drawn to suicide because they feel like they're a burden to other people or because they want their pain to end and we can support them. And what you're talking about with the, having the conversation to find out, like, by actually saying like what's going on and you end up finding that you're not alone and that there's a support system. The second to last piece-- which I'm also in-- apparently I'm in the hard pieces emotionally. [00:20:29] It's called "Honest Conversation." And it's performed with my duo partner, Elena Sherman, and my real life best friend. And we are-- our piece is duo lyra, and we're having an honest conversation where in this piece we are through aerial saying like, "Hey, I have been feeling this way." And then all of a sudden hearing, "oh, I've been feeling this way too, and I love you." And we love each other and maybe we can like support each other. So having that honest conversation, just talking about it. So it's very conceptual because there isn't like a strong through line, but I did have these two paragraphs written in the program. And the title of each act is in bold and caps in the paragraph. So if you want to kind of follow along, so you're just like, "I don't even know what's going on right now," you have that safety backup to find out like what we're talking about with psychosis, hopefully like in the piece specifically about psychosis, where we have two people that are kind of like the same sometimes, and then moving further away from each other at other times, hopefully you can kind of get that sense of having -- not multiple personalities-- but having conflicting feelings and manic and depressive states that are sometimes together and sometimes battling each other. Hopefully in the piece about depression, you get the sense of just feeling defeated and depressed. But there is that option of go back and look at the paragraph and you can figure out what we're doing. [00:22:00] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. Yeah. And I know this show is coming up pretty quickly. So do you want to share the details of how we might be able to watch it, whether we're local to Kansas City or not? [00:22:12] Kelsey Aicher: If you are local to Kansas City, we are going to be performing this show live at City Stage at Union Station on November 18th, 19th, 20th, and 21st. You can buy tickets at kansascityaerialarts.com. There'll be a link to our EventBrite page. If you are not local to Kansas City, and you want to check out the show, we are going to do a live stream on the Friday, November 19th show, and you can buy tickets through our same EventBrite page there. And if you do the live stream, you'll be able to not only watch it live on Friday, but you'll have access to watch it at another time after that, that weekend. So I know some of my students that are coming to see the show in person that have family members that are in different states are also gifting a live stream to their family members so that everyone they want to share it with can see this show. [00:23:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's a perfect option. Thank you for sharing all about it and the process and all of that. And I'm wondering how it's been for you personally, and you can go into as little or as much detail as you want, but this is obviously-- like, we've kind of touched on something near and dear to your heart. And I, I, I know from my own personal experience that sometimes taking something that is really, really difficult, and frankly, even just difficult to talk about regardless of your comfort level of it, it's just still hard. I'm, I'm curious how that's been for you to translate that for yourself as a performer and then watching your creation come to life. How has that process been for you? I mean, I can only imagine that you are, you're needing to do a lot of self care on the side to really you know, not go down a rabbit hole of, of, of you know, reliving some of those harder moments, but, but, but still able to portray it. Do you mind speaking to that? [00:24:11] Kelsey Aicher: Yeah, of course. Yeah, I feel like I've been sharing my story more in the last few weeks than I ever have in my life, but I have, I've decided about five years ago that I was going to stop worrying about covering up my scars and not worry about telling people that I have depression, like not trying to hide it. I grew up in a Catholic small town, rural Wisconsin, conservative family. And when the school counselor told my parents that like I had talked about suicide ideation and that I should seek counseling, my parents were really upset that I would need extra help. My mom would drive me to and from therapy in silence and she would always like give me a doctors' note, like that I had a doctor's appointment. Like she would not let the school know that it was for counseling. I was told that I was not allowed to tell anyone, like none of my friends. So I went through my teenage years, dealing with an addiction to cutting, dealing with depression, dealing with starting meds for major depression and anxiety. [00:25:24] And my parents wouldn't talk to me about it. And I couldn't talk to any of my friends. And so I grew up being like, everything that I'm dealing with is something to be ashamed about. And even when I was hospitalized in college, it was only because some one saw --a neighbor in the dorms. I started like bleeding through my shirt and I didn't realize I was bleeding through my shirt from all of my wounds that I had self-inflicted, and they're the ones that took me to the hospital. And then coming back from that break, my parents and I really didn't talk about it. So it's just been like this whole, like life of like, you're supposed to be ashamed of having depression. You're supposed to hide it. You're not supposed to talk about it because like it's improper and it reflects poorly on your family and everyone else around you. [00:26:09] And in Portland, I had a coach who was wearing tank tops all the time and I could see her scars. And I asked her about at one time, like really like hesitantly about like, "Why do you feel comfortable showing your scars?" And she's like, "I get hot easily. I don't want to wear sleeves when I'm training." And it was just like this whole idea of like, "oh, this isn't a big deal." And so I made it a goal for myself that once a week, from them that point on, I was going to wear either shorts or short sleeves or something that revealed at least a scar once, once a week. And it wasn't necessarily around people I knew, or to like my aerial classrooms, and that it would be like to the grocery store, but I was just going to like gradually become okay with like having my scars exposed because I would like literally wear long sleeves and pants. And I like cover absolutely everything. [00:27:02] And so when I started getting comfortable with like my body and people seeing this, and I started like realizing. There's this other person that has this thing. And then we start talking these other people and they have depression. I was like, "oh, I'm not alone." And "Hey, I can start talking about these things." And I've found for me that the best thing for my own mental health and my own control of my problems with self harm has been being honest in talking about it. So I think for me, because I have been now for like, six, seven years been very open. Like if anyone asks me about something that's going on or my past experience, I will tell them. I will be honest. And it's just been something that's been so helpful for me. So I think along this journey, working on this show, even though it is so personal to me and personal to all the performers, I've already-- I don't want to say made my peace but it's the best phrase that's coming to my head right now-- made my peace with that that I don't feel super vulnerable to it. [00:28:00] That said, I am reading something on stage that I wrote. And I have found that when I listened to myself say these words, I have a really tough time. That's when I get triggered. So I have to, there's a piece where I'm reading something I wrote while a contortionist is performing to my words on stage. And anytime she sends me her videos to show me like, "oh, this is what I'm working on," I have to turn the sound off because if I hear myself saying these words, these about having anxiety and feeling stressed out, I get like, I have a physical reaction. So I have found that like, that's my one like trigger in this show, everything else I've been okay with. I've seen a lot of the performers, so many of the performers, if not every performer in this show has started putting their own emotions, their own feelings and their own experiences into this show as well. And so I've seen it more, I've seen more reactions from the other cast members seeing like how their real feelings are getting into the pieces and sometimes disrupting it. [00:29:09] And so I've talked to some of the newer performers. And the way that I keep my, the way I picture it is, you want to be you adjacent. So I think like, there's this character and then there's yourself and you want to have them next to each other so that they're just touching enough that you can pass the emotions and the feelings of your own experiences into your character, but you don't want them to be overlapping and you don't want them to be the same. Because if you are now becoming your reality into this piece, it's going to be so hard as a performer. It's going to be too easy to break down and to not actually separate yourself from the art that you're working on. So I talked to someone else about this and they just decided that they described it as a mask work, where you don't want your mask to be so tight fitting that it's yourself. You want to have a little bit of space between you and your mask that you're presenting. I think of it as being adjacent. Either way, it's this idea that you need to put all of your feelings and your experiences and your person next to your character that you're being. So pull on your experiences of self-harm and depression in this piece about depression, but don't make it actually your real experiences. If that makes sense. [00:30:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, and that's great advice. And I wish I had heard that advice a few years ago. I performed a piece where my character was the subject of some pretty intense bullying and, you know, a lot of gossip swirling around the character and the character had to deal with it. And, and it was very difficult to, to be adjacent to that character, having experienced some, some similar kinds of-- not the same obviously things-- but similar things to have those feelings brought back up, right? And so, yeah, that is such a good piece of advice. Yes, draw on your own experience to be able to portray it, to be able to share with the audience, "this is how this feels to me," but not so much that you get to a point of reliving the difficult, like-- I mean, trauma is a strong word-- but you know, things are traumatic, so don't relive the trauma exactly. But yeah, but, but be willing to sit with the feeling. And stay a little bit separate. I like, I like the way that, that you talked about that. Yeah. That's really important. [00:31:33] Kelsey Aicher: And you don't want to completely remove yourself from it because then your performance is inauthentic. Like you still want to give an honest portrayal, but that's why I always think of it, like as adjacent, like touching but not overlapping. [00:31:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's, that's fantastic. And I'm sorry to hear that you didn't have that support system growing up. I think there-- there's still is-- but there were for many, many years just so much stigma surrounding any sort of mental health difficulty. And I'm so thankful that you have a great support system now, from the sounds of it. And again, we, we are all touched by it. I love what your concept of that is, is nobody has been untouched in some way, whether it's you yourself or, or somebody that you love deeply or whatever. It's, it's there. And so being able to have those honest conversations and draw on the support of others and professionals. And I'm a huge advocate for therapy. I, I think therapy is for absolutely everyone. [00:32:30] Kelsey Aicher: Yes. I think that is something that everyone should experience at least once in their life. Like we go to the dentist twice a year to make sure that our teeth are still okay. We go to the doctor to make sure that everything's okay. Why don't we do this same thing for our emotional and mental wellbeing? Like everyone should be just at least once in their life should get that like tune-up. We do it for our cars. We do it for everything. But we should do it for our brain as well. [00:32:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Amen. Fully on board with that. Yes. So I'm sure that you're a pretty wrapped up in, you know, everything that is "n0rmal" right now, but then what is on the horizon for you? Where do you see yourself heading to next? [00:33:12] Kelsey Aicher: Well, always more things. I'm sure you already know that our training company is doing this production in December with VidaDance, called "Cracked!" So I'm simultaneously working on training and getting everything together and directing "n0rmal" while also doing some choreography and coaching for the training company for "Cracked!" And the training company at KCAA is already starting to work on our spring show which is a pop goth, gender neutral fairytale retelling, called "The Glass Combat Boot." So I'm already doing auditions for that and choreography and getting everything lined up. That will be in May, again at City Stage. And then, because I'm always thinking so far ahead, I'm getting the concept ready for their Fringe show and I'm already working on Aerheart's show for next year, next fall. So I'm constantly, I always like to stay one year ahead when it comes to writing the show that we're going to do. [00:34:17] So I kind of have a system of "alright, idea for next year's show needs to be done at least one year in advance. I need to have an outline at least 10 months in advance. I need to start auditions and choreography" by the time that we have started by the time we're in production of the previous show. So I'm going year-round constantly thinking of like what the next project is. It helps that I always like to create, so I get excited about things and the people I work with, both in Aerheart and in the training company, they're so inspiring. And so sometimes they'll just say something or do something and I see an image and that sparks a whole entire show. [00:35:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I have the privilege of actually knowing you in real life, not just, you know, over the, the podcast. And so, yeah, you are one of the most organized people I've ever met, which obviously you have to be, considering you always have like 15,000 things on your plate, so kudos to you. [00:35:21] Kelsey Aicher: I don't usually feel that way so thank you for the compliment. [00:35:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, yeah, and I understand that the not feeling that way, but clearly, you know, you are very. So good, good for you, but yeah, that, that is awesome. And for those who haven't had the chance to experience Kansas City Aerial Arts yet-- first of all, I just have to say the company, the professional company Aerheart, and then of course the training company, but the students in general are just amazing people first and they're amazing performers second, but they are just-- you have to watch, you have to watch their shows, frankly. Just shameless plug, but like, it just, you have to do it because they're, they're so good. And one of the things that I enjoy so much about watching them perform is how much they enjoy performing together. It's just obvious. [00:36:11] Kelsey Aicher: Yes. Yes. 100%. This is the most supportive community I have ever known. Like, I am constantly baffled by them. We hold auditions and it's almost like people get more excited to find out that they didn't get a solo because they're excited that someone else got the solo. It's, it is so crazy how much they all support each other and love each other. And like you said, it just shows on stage. [00:36:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. It's, it's magical. It's a really special atmosphere that you all have obviously carefully curated and support, but it is awesome the kind of people that you draw in and the way that they interact with each other. It's, it's always a blessing when we get to interact with y'all, but just in general, it's so much fun to watch you. And I would highly also encourage that if anybody is local to Kansas City and has any interest in aerial art, definitely that's the way to go. Like I said, they're extremely supportive people. Even if you've literally never done anything aerial before, they're not going to make you feel goofy or anything. I mean, I did an intro lesson one time and I was so like, I, you know, don't have the upper body strength or anything, and everyone was just so supportive and sweet and you know, that's the way to go. Well Kelsey, you know, thank you so much in general for, for being honest and open with, with us and specifically with the show. I'm really excited that you're doing this and I commend the work. I think it's extremely important that you're doing it. So thank you so much for that. I do have a couple sort of generic questions that I like to ask my guests if you're comfortable with that. [00:37:50] Kelsey Aicher: Yeah, of course. [00:37:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, first of all, what is one change that you would really like to see in the art world? It could be really anything-- could be a very serious sort of change that you feel like needs to be made or something fun. Just what's one thing you would like to see changed about the art world? [00:38:10] Kelsey Aicher: One thing that I really struggle with is I don't feel that artists receive the same respect as someone that works like a standard nine to five. Like we're constantly asked to work for experience or do work for free promotion, but you wouldn't ask an architect to build a design your building for free, just for exposure. And I think that artists frequently thought of as, "oh, you're just doing it because you love it. And so you should just do it for the love and you don't have to worry about getting paid or getting paid equally." And I don't know, I feel like it's kind of like, you know, people that are computer programmers, they don't just write code because they want to make money. They do it also because they enjoy it, and artists do their work because they enjoy it. But why are we expected to just enjoy it and not seek compensation? So I do wish that there was a little bit more respect financially for artists. [00:39:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes. And amen. Yep, absolutely agree. And then is there something arts related that you still want to explore that you haven't yet? So maybe another form of art that has it kind of, you know, prodded you here and there that, "oh, try me!" But you haven't had the opportunity or, or haven't gone for it yet? [00:39:38] Kelsey Aicher: Hmm. That is a really good question. I tend to be a person who-- I don't want to say impulsive, I'm impulsive light. So if there's something that interests me, I usually go for it and I dive in to it. So most things I feel like I have tried. I do still have the goal and it's not new. I, I love writing and I still write regularly. I still have the goal of writing a novel someday. But I'm trying to think of other art forms that I haven't dabbled in that I had just like really would like to try. I can tell you that one of my favorite art forms to watch is, I love watching dance. I love watching all types of dance and I just get mesmerized by it. And when there's an aerialist and a dancer on stage at the same time, the audience is almost always watching the aerialist because that's the thing that they haven't seen so much. And for me, I'm always watching the dancers cause I'm like, "But, but the dancer!" But I, I have tried dancing. I'm not great at dancing. I really respect everything that you guys do. Because I, I'm not a great mover on the ground by any means. [00:40:43] Lindsey Dinneen: But maybe something to further explore someday if you feel like it! [00:40:46] Kelsey Aicher: Possibly. Yeah. I mean, things in the circus arts, I know I want to get better at hand balancing and I've even considered-- it's just like, not professionally-- but like, I'm like when I retire from aerial, I think I might try to get a little bit more into contortion. You know, cause someone just gets into contortion for fun. But yeah, I think that my art, I just like to, I like being creative. I like, I like to move my body a lot, so I think it'd be something along those lines or even in the martial arts, I know. Not everyone considers that to be an art, but there certainly is a movement and an art form to things like Tai Chi or TaeKwonDo. So I think maybe the martial arts would be something I would try out. [00:41:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Great. And then my final question is-- so at the end of your life, what is one arts related experience that you would want to experience one last time for the last time? [00:41:45] Kelsey Aicher: Directing a show with aerialists. It's funny that I have fallen in love with it in the last few years, because I, when I was in film school, I really just wanted to be a writer. I had no ambition to be a director, almost everyone I was in classes with was like director, director, or writer, director. And I was like, no, I really do not want to direct. And the last four years with Kansas City Aerial Arts and working with the student company in particular, like being able to see us, all that team effort put in heart and soul from choreographers and performers and coaches and make a vision come to life. And it's not just like this vision that I have, like, I love seeing their reaction. Like "Masked" was my favorite show that we've done so far on stage. And after "Masked," so many of the students came up to me were just like, "We can do this again, right? Like we should just like, get the, the theater again next week and just keep performing this show." And that joy and that excitement of "we did this together as a team, we got this concept, we were the best artists we could be and we executed a vision." It's just so incredible. And so I imagine that like at the end of my life, I just want to direct one more show with this community again. [00:43:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I can understand that. Certainly relate to that. Yeah. Well, Kelsey, thank you so very much for being here today. I'm just so inspired by what you've been talking about and your courage in speaking out about things that are important, that matter to you, that matter to everyone. So thank you for doing that. And if, if people are interested in connecting with you specifically, is there a way for them to do? [00:43:33] Kelsey Aicher: Yes. You can go to kansascityaerialarts.com and you'll be able to find my bio and my contact information. If you want to email me, it's kelsey@kansascityaerialarts.com. I am not very good about social media, but I do have an Instagram account, which is mindfulaerhead. Airhead is A E R. So M I N D F U L A E R H E A D. So mindfulaerhead because I am really into mindfulness while being in the air. And yep. So you can follow me on Instagram there and message me that way as well. I will do my best to respond. I'm working this year on improving my social media presence, but it has been a thing that I have been removed from for several years. [00:44:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I can relate to that. Well, thanks again so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And if you are feeling as inspired as I am after listening to this episode, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time. [00:44:41] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:44:51] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's unique episode, I have compiled some of our earliest guests' answers to the question, "What is art to you?" This delightful compilation brings a plethora of unique, honest, and inspiring answers to that question, and I'm excited to share part one of this limited series with you today. Enjoy!    Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 74 - "What is Art to You?" - Part 1 [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: "I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life." [00:00:12] Roman: "All I can do is put my heart in to the world." [00:00:15] Elizabeth: "It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever, really. I mean, as long as you, you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough." [00:00:23] Elna: "Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful." [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and today I have a very unique episode that I'm really excited to share with you. It is a compilation of all of the different, amazing answers I've received over the last year and some change to the question, "what is art to you?" I love asking this question, because the answers I get are always so diverse and beautiful and unique and challenging. And I just can't wait to share the insights that I've gathered over the year with you. So enjoy and I'll catch you next time. [00:01:14] Ashley Taylor: To me, art is way for us to make sense of the world that we live in at its most basic level. I think we can do that a number of different ways. For one thing, sometimes when I think of art, I think of still life painting or landscape painting. That's like a very basic example of art. Or even going back to like the cave paintings, which is little stick animals, right? That's a way of humans who are saying, " Here's what I see. I'm going to try to copy it or represent it." [00:01:45] And that's a very simple, almost primitive way of trying to make sense of the world of the world that we live in. So we can start there, or we can go all the way to very abstract paintings or dances or music, which sometimes are so abstract that the audience doesn't even understand what the inspiration was, but that is somebody trying to make sense of the world in their own way. [00:02:08] I'm sure even trying to say, I can't make sense of the world--life is meaningless, so I'm going to make this hard to tell what it means art about it, right, that's still representing something. It's our way of trying to grapple with what we're seeing and experiencing. [00:02:24] Bryant Williams: Art to me is inspiration. Art to me is vital. I think that's the best--where art is vital and art is a form of expression meant for the world to share in a mutual experience. [00:02:39] Krista Eyler: I think it's making something from nothing. And no, there's a song called "Finishing the Hat," and it talks about that creation of, you know--I made a hat where there never was a hat, and art to me is really just that. And I'm glad I rhymed those two lines. It's making something from nothing that hopefully will make somebody else feel something very important or have a very visceral, emotional response. I mean, everything I write musically is to reach someone else, is to entertain someone else, is to give, you know, that pleasure in your ears from some really great music and singing. [00:03:27] That's, that's kind of how I see art. You know what? I'm not a scholar of art. I'm not a scholar of dance. I'm not a scholar of music theory. I'm basically not a scholar of anything except the raising my children, but when it comes to art, I just, I just really feel great satisfaction when you make something that wasn't there before and then it's there, then you've brought it into existence and then you wonder why it was not there before. [00:03:58] Rick Wright: I feel like to me, you know, it, it's an outlet and an exploration first and foremost, and I think if we're lucky it becomes an end product, but I don't know that that is necessarily the most important. I think there is, there is value in the exploration that, that just happens with all things creative, whether it's dance or it's paint or it's clay. It's about communicating, it's, it's communicating with different materials or in different ways than the verbal or auditory that we're used to. I, I think it's, you know, it's a little bit of your, your soul, you know, uncovering your soul, whether you realize it or not. I think it's about just exposing your, your true self. [00:04:52] Danielle Guy: Art is expression of truth done a visual way. So where it is taking some form of reality and putting it in a way that can be physicalized, whether it be by, you know, painting or drawing or by moving, or by speaking--just a different way to look at it--that is different from what our normal reality is, which can be quite boring. [00:05:19] Roman Mykyta: Art is ultimately a worldview. I think art starts with a worldview. It's very intentional and it's very presentational and it's always a form of communication with the creator and the viewer. But where my head is now as well, I kind of feel like art is everywhere around us. Even just looking out the window, the art is within the worldview to be able to see anything and to give it meaning, and it can be good or bad meaning, but I personally always like the good meaning, and to just kind of commune with all of these things in our life, which are indicative of something. [00:06:02] Erin Paige: Art to me is an expression of the soul. And I think that that just comes in many forms, whether it's a street performer that feels the need--even a little kid that is dancing to some music, I consider that art. So really anything that you're inspired to do that your soul is telling you to do? That's how I see art. [00:06:33] Elizabeth Cooper: I would say I would define art as a piece of work that someone is inspired by, like someone sees something around them and they're inspired by it and so they want to then recreate it in a way that means something to them. I feel like art is, you know, it's a very personal thing, you know, everybody sees it differently. And so yeah, I guess I would, I would just define art as anything that, that is inspired by the things around you, that then you create something from that inspiration. [00:07:12] Jeremiah Kauffman: I guess art is any creative process to produce something that's meaningful to the artist and they want it to show up other people. And I don't really, I don't think there are any boundaries to what art is. There are no limitations. And if you produce a sculpture or a performance, choreographic performance, apart, whatever or painting. And someone says, ah, that's not art. If you say it's art, because the creative expression of what you're trying to share with others and it is art. So, I'm not one that looks at a particular, you know, like painting, you know, all right. [00:07:50] So somebody paints hyper-realistic babies or, or kittens. And someone says, yeah, that's art because that's hyper-realistic. But the, the abstract painting that somebody did --that's not art. That is not true. The abstract painting is just as much art is the cute little kittens. It's just the art is the expression of creativity. That's all it is. I don't think we should pigeonhole art. Art's anything that illustrates emotion from both the artist and the viewer. It's something that entertains and teaches, and something that can be used to make our lives better. It can be something that improves our society or just makes us happy or just helps us feel better about ourselves or helps us. It gives us comfort when we need comfort or gives us inspiration when we need to be inspired, and if it affects and produces all range of emotions. And I think that if there's an emotional response, then that's also art. [00:09:02] Katheryn Krouse: So I think I would define art as a thoughtful form of expression. I think it doesn't have to necessarily be creating a painting or writing a song or a poem. I think it can also include how you dress or how, how you cook, how someone cooks can be a form of art. I think that it can be anything or any way that one chooses to carry themselves--how, you know, how they decorate or different, different things. I think all of these are good forms of art. [00:09:40] Heidi Loubser: I think if I'm trying to one sentence to it, I mean, art is the act of creating . You know, we take one resource and we transform it into another. We take a body and we mold it to do certain things on stage. We take clay and we turn it into a sculpture. So maybe, yeah, the act of creating, if I had to boil it down to a phrase. [00:09:58] David Weinraub: I define art as anything that can enhance an emotion. I can go outside and I can see, you know, a turtle on my back deck who somehow found its way, you know, up the stairs to onto the porch. And, I find beauty in that and therefore that is art. To me, it elicits an emotion when it happens. Some people say that's where they see God in the world. And, I think in some ways, God and art are synonymous. [00:10:37] Grace Strachan: Well, I think art is in the eye of the beholder. I really believe that. I consider art nature. I consider art beauty. I consider art feelings. I consider art love. I really believe that art is all around us. I don't think we appreciate art the way we should appreciate art. I get very sad when I hear about them taking art out of the schools. I just think that is the most, I don't know how to say it in a very polite way, but wrong. I'll just say it. It's just, it's totally wrong. One of the biggest reasons I, I got into art as a child was because I happened to have a very good school system where we were taught art. And so I took, and then I ended up taking art on, you know, outside of school as well. So I think art is so important and it makes people creative. It helps children blossom in so many ways . And I think we, we tend to not appreciate the art around us. I grew up in a small city in Canada. So I grew up with art all around me, and I've always been, I felt very blessed by that because to have the theater and having that around me, I think gave me a different aspect and a different look on life. I ended up getting into working in theater and doing makeup and, and doing some backstage stuff when I lived in Canada. And that is, that's something that I could never, ever, ever, be lucky enough to repeat again. So I think art is just everywhere and everything. [00:12:18] Julie Ulstrup: I believe art is an expression and a like a, an interaction between the person who creates it and the person who's looking at it. And it's, it's a shared, it's a shared experience. [00:12:45] Kevin Dinneen: I think art is, is taking some base components, some raw material and forming that raw material into something that a viewer or listener or someone experiencing that in whatever shape or, or vessel medium that might be, and something that enhances their lives. Whereas you take this, there's a piece of paper and this pen and separately, you glance over it, but you take those things and you combine that into a, into a moving-- I don't mean moving physically, but something that moves the person that sees it. And that is what art is. You have these raw materials that you create an experience from, and I think that's art. And doesn't have to be happy, it doesn't have to be sad. It doesn't have to be hard to understand. It doesn't have to be easy to understand. It's just creating something moving from raw materials. [00:13:54] Elna VanGreuning: I think art is anything that's so beautiful for the eye that you either wanted to touch it, hear it, see it, you know, and you could even eat it, if it's like, in cake. So it's something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experience as so beautiful. [00:14:15] Liza Lomax: To me, art is an emotion. it's anger. It's sadness. It's happy. It's frustration. It's irritation. It's gratefulness. It's blessings. When I look at art, I can feel what the artist was portraying at that time because I'm an empath. So looking at art is very impactful for me because I can see it and I can feel what the person was trying to express or trying to convey. You know, there's so many pieces of artwork where people are like, they don't understand it. They don't get it. Like, what is this? It looks just like a bunch of jumbly blobs on a canvas, and I can look at it and I can see what they were feeling and what they were doing and how they were--what they were trying to convey through the art. So to me, it's--art is emotions. [00:15:11] Trenna Reed: I would say art is human expression, because I guess the way that I think about it is, of all the species on this planet, as far as we know, humans are really the only ones who can convey art and understand art. I guess dogs can watch TV, but you know, they don't really comprehend what's going on, so that, I would say, it's a human expression. And, for me it's just, it's art is love and passion, and it's how we express those emotions or any emotions, which is such an important part of being a human being. [00:16:09] Kent Rader: Art, art to me is something that you created that is unique to you. And there's a difference in my mind between art and success. Too many people want to be successful, so they recreate something somebody else has created or they mimic something else that somebody else has created. And that isn't art to me. Success, I mean, how do you define success? You know, it's more important that it's unique and that it's personal to me. And I remember a turning point in my life as an artist was stop making it about your success and make it about bringing joy and happiness to an audience. That was a huge turning point, but also it had to be so personal and so come from me. I want it to be so much about my life that nobody else could make it theirs, but they could relate to it as well. [00:17:18] Meghan Spencer: I think art is communicating to the outside world a feeling emotion or something else you want to say, because it can be tangible. It can be movement. It can be makeup. It can be--there's a lot of, there's a lot of ways that art can take forms, but it's always about communicating something. [00:17:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Art is an expression of creativity that shares someone's life experiences-- whether that's feelings or situation or dreams-- with the world. [00:18:14] Robyn Jameson: I would say that I'm a little bit of an art snob. So I consider art anything that is created with the intention for it to be, for its only function to be, presented and appreciated. For me, art is music, poetry, literature, literature, dance, visual art, film. And for me, originality is important. [00:18:44] Lantz McDonald: To me, I tried to break it down to the simplest terms that I can, 'cause I had thought about this a little bit before we started recording. I would say it's, to me it's an ambiguous expression. And some, some pieces of art are more or less ambiguous, but at the end of the day, you were trying to relay an emotion and there's nothing unambiguous about that. Yeah, I think it's just people trying to express themselves to other people. We all want to be heard and listened to. And this is just one more way to do that. [00:19:23] Helen Ransom: I have learned over the years, having a sister who dances and having my mom who loves nature photography and myself, I prefer the people side of things. Art is a lot of things to me. And art is walking through the Plaza Art Fair and admiring all the different mediums. And art is watching my sister dance and seeing the way that storytelling can happen that way with no words and just movement. And art is the beauty of nature and the majesty of creation. And art is a smiling toddler, or a mom rubbing noses with her sweet baby. It's all art and it's beautiful. And to me it describes humanity and the world we're living in. [00:20:16] Crystal Tiehen: Art is a creative outlet. It's an emotional support. It's, it's a way to give ourselves permission to be a child to bring fun into our life, to not have to be so serious all the time and, and really be able to explore that childlike facet of ourselves. And even if it's not childlike, just being able to, to bring something that only you have created into this world. That's what art is. [00:20:56] Alden Miller: Art is presenting whatever is in your head out to the world. It's like your mind's eye just kind of like showing it, you know, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking about," or "this is what I'm feeling or showing." [00:21:10] Emerson Mertens: Art, I think, it's so many things. It's, it's kind of hard to pinpoint an exact definition, but I think what stands out to me the most is that art is really a form of communication. So it has that ability kind of, like I said earlier, to connect people. And it has a way of touching people that I think a lot of the normal ways of communication can't always do. So it's a form of communication with others. And I think it's also a form of self-expression, which is, in a way, essentially sort of another form of communication because we're communicating what we think or feel ourselves to others. So I think that's really true of any kind of art, whether it's dance or music or painting or, or graphic arts--it's essentially communicating some idea or feeling, or even maybe an entire story. Like in the case of dance, a lot of times it's an entire story. It's communicating that to the viewer or listener in, in that artist's own unique way. And that can be a really powerful thing. [00:22:22] Kim Pierce: Well, to me, art is, it's really any creation or expression that provokes thought or a reaction. Every interaction that you have with art is an opportunity to have a silent conversation between you and the artist. The person experiencing it has a dialogue going in their head and the artist has already put something out into the world to discuss back and forth. I want to be a part of that conversation regardless of the role I'm in, whether I'm the person experiencing the art or I'm the artist. And to me, that's art. Art is just something that makes you think, something that makes you have a reaction. [00:23:03] Anh Le: To me, art is something where for me I can utilize to heal the wounds of society. But it's also a very interesting way of expressing storytelling because I've seen, for example, abstract art, and I'm an artist myself too. So sometimes I see it and I just connected with things maybe, for example, the sun or, or like the womb of someone, every person sees art differently. And, even with one movie, people can say so many things. For example, like, one person can say, "Oh, from this movie, I learned more about domestic abuse and the effects of it." But another person might say, "I've learned about the importance of having a mentor in life." So you can have one movie. It's the same exact story. But so many different takes. And I think art has pursued the same way, because it is a way where we share, we share stories and everyone takes, has different take based on how they were raised, how they were influenced by art and so forth. [00:24:16] Maggie Rader: Oh, to connect, I'd say. You know, we were joking before we started rehearsing. It's like, "Oh, why does live theater still exist when movies are around?" And if you mess up, you can just start over and you only have to do it once then. But that's why live theater is still around. It's so much about connection. And I feel like out of all the, and maybe that's why I love the stage. It's, I feel like when you're doing live theater, you get to connect so much more than in other artistic mediums that I love, and enjoy, but it's not my particular passion. So yeah, I think the most important role is, or thing you can do, is to connect. [00:24:57] Tessa Priem: I actually did a presentation that had a lot to do with what is art. And I ended up looking up the various definitions and like, the Oxford dictionary and Miriam Webster. But one thing that really sticks out to me from what I learned just about sort of the definition is, well, first of all, let me back up just a little bit throughout history. This has been debated and continues to be debated. It's such a interesting question because people always have different answers. So I think even the Greek philosophers from long ago, like really examine this question, what is art? So anyway, from the dictionaries, I thought it was so interesting how they really emphasize that the aspect of skill. So developing a skill. And I, I'm not going to go into, you know, your level of that skill or something, but, but you know, whether it be drawing or whether it be dance or whether it be music of some sort, right? So you have this certain skill or craft that you work on and you end up making something in that skill or craft and that what you make expresses something, right. There's some sort. Of purpose behind that making. And then furthermore, beyond that sort of purpose, whatever it might be, that can be so varied. [00:26:28] It's so varied for each artist, but from that purpose of whatever you've made, usually after that, that work, that creation is often shared with others, usually. Not always, not always, but it's often shared. So those were just some aspects that I thought were really interesting about what is art, you know, it's kind of, it's this skill or craft that people have that people work on and they pour themselves into it and they make whatever it is that they, that they need to create. And often then they share that work. Not always, but, but frequently that's what happens. And then what happens from that is that the audience in some way responds. And so, I guess that's kind of, maybe that's art, it's, it's making something. And then you go on to either just keep it to yourself, which is special, or you go on to, to share that with others to potentially impact others in some kind of way. But it's definitely something that you make -- definitely something that you make. [00:27:41] Shari Augustine: I think it's different for every person. It's a way of using your creativity to allow your feelings to be put out there without--sometimes you can't say what your feelings are. And so it's a way of allowing your feelings to come out for you. Yeah, or it, it can be putting a message out and everyone might take that message in differently, because we all look at art differently and that's okay. [00:28:20] Debbie Dinneen: Oh boy, to me, first thing that I think of is anything visual, but you know, art encompasses so much, you know, music, theater, dance. Art is everywhere. Art is when I look out my back door and I see birds on my bird feeder. We're just surrounded. That's how I feel about it. [00:28:48] Joe Pilgram: Art could be so many different things. you know, for, for me, it's definitely passion. Whether it's, you know, I use art as a way to, to get my emotions out, to be able to dance it out. But other people as an art will sling paint or, you know, do different things. I believe that musician Sting, like the best songs that he wrote when he was with the police, he talked about, it was when it was a really bad time in his life, he and his wife were having problems and some of his best art came out at that moment. And I, I feel that, you know, art is definitely a, a human expression, that, that we all have. I guess I look more at other artists for the guidance in that realm, that it's, you know, it should be something that's explored, that it's something you create. You have people that are, that are machinists that some create some pretty fascinating stuff. 3D printer guys, doing things with that, and I don't know if I know you asked me what, what I think it is. I might throw this little plug in here from Felicia Rashad and it was, she was talking about art and she said, "Children," and she said, "Before they write, they draw. Before they stand, they dance. Art is a human expression. It's a fundamental human expression." And so I, I guess I'd like to hop on her bandwagon with that. [00:30:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope you thoroughly enjoyed all of the answers to the question, "what is art to you?" I love hearing those responses. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I have reliving these moments of inspiration and beauty. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:31:10] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

How often do we trust the technology around us? Should we ever? CEO and founder of EMA Advisory Services, Elizabeth Adams wants to know – especially as it relates to AI surveillance. Smart phones, social media, and facial and voice recognition are commonplace for many. But do we know what, if any, ethical considerations shaped their development? That's why Elizabeth is on a mission to fight for ethical, human-centric AI. Join us as we uncover hard truths about the role civic tech plays in our communities.    Key Takeaways: [1:56] Elizabeth, a long-time technologist, shares how she came to be involved in the ethical use of AI. After being part of the working poor for many years, she made a decision to focus on giving a voice to the voiceless. [4:31] How does bias get coded into facial recognition? Systems are sold and trained by law enforcement that can be biased in a way that shows Black and Brown people as more suspicious. This can do irreversible harm to communities that are traditionally discriminated against. [6:00] It's not just facial recognition technology that can be biased and ultimately harmful, it can be other computer vision technologies as well.  Elizabeth discusses the example of how an infrared thermometer used during COVID picked up a firearm image more in darker-skinned users than lighter-skinned ones. When this type of technology is in the hands of governing bodies, this kind of AI can be dangerous to civilians. [6:20] Elizabeth's work with AI is first and foremost about making tech, especially surveillance tech, safe for citizens. That work took root in the city of Minneapolis, where she zeroed in on civic tech initiatives. Elizabeth explains that civic tech is when the government and the community work together on a shared leadership decision around what technology should be used to help govern society. [7:27] Elizabeth discusses the coalition POSTME (Public Oversight of Surveillance Technology and Military Equipment) that she founded in Minneapolis. The murder of George Floyd by former police officer Derek Chauvin in 2020 sent a shockwave across the world. One that resulted in public demand for greater accountability and oversight of the way citizens, and especially communities of color, are policed. As a technologist focused on civic tech, Elizabeth uses her expertise, coupled with the power of advocacy, to make changes to the kinds of tech that police in Minneapolis can use. [10:41] Often, those doing the surveillance are too removed from those being policed. This is especially dangerous for black and brown communities. Because if the police don't know the people they're supposed to be serving, they often fail to distinguish between who is a threat, and who isn't. [13:49] Clearview AI is a facial recognition technology designed for use by law enforcement. When it was adopted by the city of Minneapolis, Elizabeth's coalition discovered the tech was using data in clearly unethical ways. In February of this year, the Minneapolis City Council banned the use and voted unanimously to ban the use of facial recognition technology. Although challenging, this was a big win for Elizabeth and her team. [16:01] So what business does AI-driven facial recognition have in the hands of the law? Elizabeth explains how it could be used for good including everything from helping recover someone lost with dementia, and to identify the perpetrator of a crime. [19:18] Whether it's an issue of bias coded into the AI itself, or just in those using it, we need more attention to the way we govern it, and that needs to start from the design. [20:11] As consumers, we trust new technologies too easily and forget to think about who may be harmed by them. Elizabeth gives the example of Hello Barbie, which was discontinued in 2015 after the AI was powered in a way that could not only speak to kids but listen to them too. [23:02] Elizabeth and other leading technologists have given so much to society but no one has asked what they have given up. Time, educational goals, and personal moments with family all sometimes get lessened by the time it takes to create new and ethical AI that is safe for everyone. [25:20] With endless opportunities to innovate, we need to ask what is its purpose, and who is it serving? How can it bring us together, and who may it potentially hurt?   Quotes: “I made a decision that I would definitely focus on those who are the voiceless, those who have no seat at the table and have no decision-making power or shared decision-making power at the table.” - [2:23] Elizabeth “It starts in the design session with the data. And if the data is not diverse, then the system output will not be able to identify diverse people.” - [4:50] Elizabeth “Often, those doing the surveillance are too removed from those being policed.” - [10:41] Jo “I don't think that we can live in a world post 9/11 here in the US without some sort of surveillance. However, it needs to be ethical. It needs to be explainable. It needs to be trustworthy and transparent. There needs to be some oversight.” - [19:45] Elizabeth “We aren't going to get away from technology, so why not make it as safe as possible?” - [21:57] Elizabeth “With endless opportunities for tech companies to innovate with AI, we all need to start asking more pointed questions about its purpose, and who exactly it's serving.” - [25:40] Jo “The future of ethical AI is going to be determined by our ability and willingness to ask big questions. So we need people in every corner of every industry asking: Is this technology safe? Do we understand how it uses our data? Does it have our permission to use it? Did it even ask us? And if it does, if we say yes, it needs to be because it serves a purpose. Because it serves us all.” - [27:03] Jo   Continue on your journey: pega.com/podcast   Mentioned: Elizabeth Adams: Twitter | LinkedIn EMA Advisory Services Safety Not Surveillance Coalition Joy Buolamwini Coded Bias

In today's episode, I welcome Sandy Woodson! Sandy is a filmmaker and photographer who recently quit her 9-5 to be a full-time documentarian. She discusses her experiences helping to share the stories of those whose voices have been historically silenced in Kansas City, including in the LBGTQ communities, and also about her passion for widening the audience for all artists in KC, whether they produce art for major companies or for their own small shows. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode displays a tulip flag from Womontown, which you can read more about in the full episode notes.)   Get in touch with Sandy Woodson: sandywoodson12@gmail.com Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   More about Sandy's project "Womontown:" In the late 1980s, Drea Nedelsky and Maryann Hopper had a vision.  They imagined a neighborhood where they could be themselves without fear,  a place where women could walk hand in hand down the street without the judgments and criticisms normally encountered in the straight world. Drea picked the Longfellow / Dutch Hill neighborhood from 30th to 27th, Harrison to Charlotte, because it was cheap. This was a neighborhood that had once housed Kansas City's elite but had fallen on hard times by the time the 80s rolled around.  Drea saw the economic benefits and security home ownership could provide and wanted to make that available for the people like them who were on the edges of society and faced countless discriminations not only because they were lesbians but because they were women.  In the late 80s and early 90s, a woman in Kansas City could not get a home loan on her own.  She needed a parent or husband to cosign. Being handy, Drea had no fear buying a house with no windows, electricity or plumbing even though it was next to an apartment building that housed drug dealers. Drea could see a future of like-minded women, buying these beat up, cheap houses and helping each other fix them up to make homes.  So Drea and Maryann put the word out and lesbians from all over the United States responded by coming to KC, buying houses and setting up a new community. As an organized effort, it lasted about 5 years, but the ripple it created is something that 30 years later can still be seen and felt.   Episode 73 - Sandy Woodson [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sandy Woodson. She is a documentarian, which I am so excited to hear all about how that journey came about. But thank you so much for being here, Sandy. I'm really excited to talk with you about art. [00:02:35] Sandy Woodson: I'm excited to be here. Thanks for the invite. [00:02:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course, absolutely. Well, Sandy, you know, you and I met through Kansas City Fringe Festival, which I have talked about many, many times on this podcast because I think it's such a special thing. But I would love if you wouldn't mind, maybe we could start there, sharing a little bit about how you've helped the festival over the years and even your own participation and then go from there. [00:03:01] Sandy Woodson: Okay. Yeah, it was somewhere around 2009 or 2010. We haven't really been able to remember between Cheryl and I, but early on, I was in a freelance mode. I was contracting with KCPT or KCPS. But I was just contracting and I had some open time and somehow or another, I think I first talked to Cheryl because I wanted to create an app that all the festivals in Kansas City could be listed on. I knew through the film festival, Kansas City Film Festival, introduced me to Cheryl to talk about that. And then as always, you know, if you talk to Cheryl, you become a volunteer pretty quickly for the Fringe Festival. So that's what happened. And at the time I had extra time, so I got involved with, you know, I jumped in with both feet and also, that was the first time I really started displaying photography. I've always been interested in it. I've always had it as a hobby. And I actually did some photography for Fringe that year. I believe it was that year. And I've pretty much done it every year since then. I haven't been as involved in the last couple of years, but in all the years leading up to that, I was pretty involved in the organization side of it. [00:04:17] Lindsey Dinneen: For sure. Yeah. And, oh my gosh, I know you, you know, basically once, well, even beforehand, but certainly once the festival starts, you're hitting the ground running like literally almost 24/7. [00:04:30] Sandy Woodson: Yeah. For a lot of years, it was like that. And then, like I say, the last couple of years, I kind of stepped back a little bit because my work started to get more intense. And so I didn't have as much time as I used to. [00:04:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, for sure. Well, are you planning to still, you know, participate in some ways and, and continue to exhibit your own work? [00:04:53] Sandy Woodson: Yeah, absolutely. And hoping to get now that I'm not nine to five, full-time somewhere. I'm hoping to get more involved with the festival next year, too. I'm happy that it looks like we're going to be able to meet in person again. That'll be awesome. [00:05:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, hallelujah. I'm so ready for that. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you for sharing a little bit about that. And then, you know, specifically with your artwork, do you want to share what you kind of focus on as far as your photography? [00:05:26] Sandy Woodson: Yeah. So early on, my big thing was kind of spawned by the fact that I've, you know, had the way I put it-- I went to one too many bad photography exhibits where it's nothing but naked women. And I was like, so where all the naked men, you know, so I kind of got started on that path and did that for quite a few years. I was helped by that with not only Fringe where I could literally post, you know, or hang whatever kind of photos I want to do. At the time April McInerney, who I love, had a gallery called Slap and Tickle Gallery. And so she really opened things up for me. There was one time where she let me take over the whole gallery space and I hung, I had probably four or five different themes or years of work that I hung up. And then I set up a little area with rope and stanchion and a TV and a recliner and a cooler. And I said, I had a sign that said the "North American Male in his Native Habitat." And I had different guys show up every half hour to sit in the chair and do whatever they wanted to do. I was like, I don't care what you do. We just kind of want to here's guys. And here's what they do because that kind of went with the theme of all the photography I'd been doing the years leading up to that. [00:06:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and that is an interesting thing. Again, native habitat. I like it. Yeah. And what a cool opportunity to get to take over that gallery, so to speak and that's awesome. [00:06:56] Sandy Woodson: Oh yeah, she was so awesome. I mean, she let the gallery go a few years ago. But you know, with Fringe, I was always able to do two sets of photography every year because they had a blue gallery or the gallery where the naked stuff went and so for Fringe, I'd always have something everybody could see and then something people not everybody could see. And April, her gallery, it was like whatever I wanted to put in there. Yeah, so it was an awesome time. And in the years since then, particularly in the last couple of years, I have been documenting LGBT history in Kansas City or what I'm hoping, you know, history in the making, things that are happening now that in the future, hopefully somebody will want to look back at and see, but so that's mostly what I've been doing with my photography since I haven't. Since Fringe has been virtual-- well I say that-- this last Fringe, I hung ballroom photos, and I can talk about that too. That's one of my documentary, documentary projects that I'm kind of working on. [00:08:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yeah. I'd love to hear about that. [00:08:07] Sandy Woodson: Well, and when you hear ballroom, people think of men and women dancing in a kind of a formal way. This is more the African-American trans community ballroom. And like, if you ever saw the documentary, "Paris is Burning," from the eighties or what really kind of brought it all back up was the "Pose" series that was on FX, I think. And that's really how I got to know the people in Kansas City that are part of that community is I went to that screening. They were screening it at Tapcade, a weekly show for, I don't know, 6, 7, 8 weeks. And so I would go and, and I started to meet the people who do ballroom in Kansas City. And they've been very nice in letting me. There was a ball two years ago that they let me videotape and photograph. And for Fringe this last year is when I hung those ballroom photos. So that's been a big interest of mine over these last couple of years. [00:09:06] And I met Michael Robeson, who was co-creator of "Pose" because he's related in the ballroom community to a guy here in Kansas City named Xavier and Xavier is actually the Grandfather of Ballroom in Kansas City. So anyway, it's been an awesome experience. The people I've met are amazing and very kind and letting me poke my nose in their business. And now that COVID is getting better. I hope to get a couple of more. You know, recordings of balls that I know are coming up. [00:09:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. How exciting and what a cool opportunity. And it's great that you're keeping track of, of history there because, you know, we, we would want to be able to look back on that and really, you know, dive in. So yeah. Yeah. I definitely think so and well, and that's a perfect segue. I know you've had, you know, a really amazing career in a lot of different ways and venues and all sorts of fun stuff. But I know now you're kind of on a, on your own trajectory again, you know, as far as I know, not working for other, for a specific other person anymore or other company. And so, you mind sharing a little bit about your kind of dreams and plans for your future? [00:10:30] Sandy Woodson: There are so many right now. I'm just loving everything right now. So I worked at KCPBS off and on for the last 25 years or so. And there were two other times where I went freelance and contracted with the station and did some other things that I was working on at the time. So this time I, the station had approved me, given me the go-ahead to do a Womontown documentary. And I can explain that topic in a second. And so what I did is I got all of it, everything's shot and kept not being able to spend the time editing it because my full-time job was too crazy for me to be able to do that. So I was going to buy a house. I took some money out of my retirement account, the house didn't come through. And I was like, "Hey, I got enough money in there. I could live for a while off of that." So that's what I'm doing. And I have four documentary projects ahead of me. [00:11:29] Well, and, and if you don't mind, I'd like to explain. I mean, so a couple of years ago for Fringe, I was in San Francisco. I was walking down the street and in the sidewalk, I saw a heart with two men's names in it, and I thought, "Wow, I've never seen that before." And it got me started down a path of trying to document men who'd been together 20 years. And I did that as a photography project. I did audio- recorded interviews with these men as to how they met, their favorite things about each other. I was keeping it short and sweet because when you were at Union Station looking at the photos, you could scan a QR code and it would go to the site where you could listen to their interview. So when I was interviewing them, all of them had had met at the Cabaret Bar. And I started hearing about the Cabaret, which I'd never been to. When the Cabaret was around, I was, you know, living north of the river and having kids. So I didn't really know anything about it and got very interested in that. [00:12:33] And then somewhere down the line, I decided I wanted to talk about HIV aids in the eighties because I didn't, you know, I know people have done documentaries on that for other parts of the country, but not for here in Kansas City. So I got excited about doing that. And then I was talking to Rashaan Gilmore and he's like, "This is not just a history thing in my community. This is happening now." Because in the African-American community, if the rate continues as it is from what he told me, there will come a time where one out of every two African-American men will be HIV positive. So it became the history and the current state of HIV/AIDS in Kansas City. [00:13:16] So because I'm straight and I don't know anything or didn't know anything at that time, a couple of years ago when I first started this, I just started meeting people, talking to people. I'm talking about the Cabaret, talking about what it was like to be gay in Kansas City in the early days, what's it like now. I started documenting Drag Queens and female impersonators and that met the ballroom community, started documenting that. So it's just kind of taken off from there. And I think for me, I'm real passionate about this because I feel like the people in the LGBT community until somewhat recently, it wasn't safe for people to be coming out. So all of this history that's gone on for all of these decades, very little documenting has been done about it, particularly with video. And I started partnering with the Gay and Lesbian Archive of Mid-America with Stewart Heinz and just meeting tons of people. And so that's been, that's how all of that kind of got started. [00:14:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm so glad that you're choosing to tell stories that are, have traditionally not been told and, you know, historically have been sort of, like you said, kind of underground, hidden, whatever. You just didn't talk about it. So I think it's, it's cool that, that your endeavor is to, you know, meet these people and tell their stories. [00:14:43] Sandy Woodson: Well, and it's been really awesome for me. I mean, I'm glad that I was doing all of this on my own and, you know, outside of my full-time job and, you know, because of that, it has been a couple of years since I really began all of this, but you know, still in all it's, you know, there are still people who are afraid to talk about it. There are people who are afraid of talking about HIV/AIDS. There's, I mean, the thing that blew me away when I started thinking about it was every person I spoke to about the HIV/AIDS crisis and about those early days, they started to cry. I mean, it's, it's one of these things that no, it's almost been 40 years and nobody's really talked about it. You know? They, it's not a general topic of conversation and it's just kind of a, such a sad thing that it's not talked about as much. And I think it's, it's almost like opening a wound. And I've asked people when they've gotten teary, whether they regret having agreed to talk to me. And they said, "Actually, it's kind of therapeutic." So 'cause they hadn't thought about it or talked about it in almost 40. [00:15:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Wow. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's, that's great that you're doing that and, and yeah, telling your personal story really does matter to someone who's willing to listen and not just listen, but like, ask questions, and "how was this experience for you and be empathic and that's, that's cool. So, awesome. Well so I'm, I'm curious then-- so going back, what got you involved in art and photography and all of those things, you know, at, at the beginning, what got, what sparked your interest? [00:16:32] Sandy Woodson: Well my dad does photography and so growing up, I was always looking at photography books and museums and artwork and reading. And my grandma, one of my grandmas painted. So there was always a lot of that for me when I was growing up and, but I got, I got pregnant and married very early at 18. And so-- well I was going to say things were put on hold, but they weren't. I got, I went right into theater at that point and got very involved in sets and props and doing tech backstage, sound and lights, and anything and everything really. I just loved being involved in theater and I love the process and the team effort that goes into it. And I just loved everything about it, but at one point 10 years later, I was going through a divorce and I thought, "Oh, I'll never make any money in theater. So I better stop that." [00:17:33] And I went into video and I started in corporate video. But all the things that I had learned in theater, some of those things translated, you know, these still need costumes, you still need props. You still need sets. You still need to organize how this all is going to come about and schedule people and crews and all of that. So that's how I became a video producer. And, but I didn't really do much except, you know, like I say, kind of playing around as a hobby with, with photography or writing or any of that until I got involved with Fringe, which was another 10, 20 years after that. And it's because, you know, as you know, Fringe is so accepting and they're all about, you know, we're not expecting everything to be perfect all the time. I started to understand what it means, what it means to go through the process. I mean, you have to get doing to grow and Fringe is so accepting of all of that, then it made me feel comfortable enough to start trying to do some things a little more seriously when it came to photography. [00:18:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. I'm, I'm such a big proponent of the Fringe Festival concept of, you know, these are unjuried, uncensored projects or shows that are being put forth. And so it is a very welcoming audience of, you know, it's, it doesn't have to be perfect the first time or, you know, you can experiment at Fringe and still have ,yeah, and still have such a great audience. And their feedback is so helpful, but you know, they're, they're there with you cheering you on, I would say. And so it's a really place to produce art. [00:19:24] Sandy Woodson: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And like you say, to experiment. I mean, I've seen people try a lot of different things that they wouldn't have any other place to do that. [00:19:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. I completely agree. Yeah. So I'm curious, I'm sure that there are many moments that might come to mind, but are there any specific stories that you can think of, of times of when either you were witnessing some artwork that really touched you or you witnessed someone witnessing your artwork and, and sort of a story of, of maybe those moments to remember, just because they're really special? [00:20:00] Sandy Woodson: Well, the most recent one that I can remember is, I went with a group of people to Italy and I'm a huge museum freak. I just love museums. I could spend all day in museums, not only because of the artwork, but they're just as a whole, they're very peaceful, beautiful places. So, but we went to-- gosh, what was the guy's name? It was some famous Italian guy, it was his villa. And I saw the Botticellis. They're like 10 foot tall by 10 foot or 20 feet wide. And it was "Spring Primavera," which I think I've always thought of as a Venus in a half shell or something. I saw that and another one and I was just like, "This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen." And, you know, I actually felt the same way one time when I was in Amsterdam and saw Van Gogh. There is --it's called "Apple Blossoms". I think it's "Apple Blossoms" and it was the first time I'd ever seen it. Now, since then, I see it all over the place in posters. I have an iPad that has a cover that has that artwork on it. [00:21:08] But I realized as much as I see this artwork in books, it is nothing to compare to when you get to actually see it in person. And the Van Gogh was one of the first-- well, my first and all of these happened in Europe. I know there are things in Kansas City that I've seen at the Nelson that every time I go, I have to go by and look at it. But the ones that made the biggest impact were the ones in Europe, because I had a whole series of books on art museums. And I would just go through those things over and over again. And to see these things in person just blew me away. So, oh gosh. And "Winged Victory." I love sculpture. "Winged Victory" at the Louvre just stopped me in my tracks to just-- things like that, that you just see them, it's like, "Oh my God. That's beautiful." [00:22:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. I, I agree is it's like, I mean, I can definitely relate to what you're saying about, you know, artwork and seeing it in person and the originals and such versus a photo. And I feel that way about art in general is just, if you can experience it live, there's nothing like that. It's so much better than, you know, it incorporates your senses and you just have these special-- I think it's cool too, because you often have-- I mean, I have many times gone to an art museum by myself and wandered around and, you know, enjoyed it thoroughly. But I think some of my favorite moments are connecting with people with art. I think that's a really special moment, you know? [00:22:43] Sandy Woodson: Yeah. And a lot of that for me is more like when I'm going to a play or going to an art movie or something that, yeah, there's definitely-- you can't compare watching it at home on TV or listening to it by yourself at home then that communal... That's I always love Shakespeare in the Park here in Kansas City. I love that, you know, all of us sitting outside and usually dying of heat, but you know, I, I really liked those experiences too. [00:23:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has really been a lot of fun. I have a couple of questions that I like to ask my guests if you're okay with that. [00:23:24] Sandy Woodson: Sure. [00:23:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, what is one change that you would like to see in the art world? Whether that is, you know, specifically through one of the mediums that you have enjoyed and, and worked on over the years or whether that's like, you know, art in general, just what's one change you'd really love to see? [00:23:48] Sandy Woodson: I don't think-- probably because my experience with Fringe, I get really tired of the fact that we in this community, we seem to focus on what is considered "high art." You know, it's not like I dislike any of these people or anything, but I'm just going to say it, you know, with the Ballet and Opera and Symphony, those people get enough support. I mean, I know they need to raise money every year, but when you're looking at these artists that are part of the Fringe Festival to me, that's real art, you know, and I don't think it gets enough attention and I think people poo poo it. And I think I've seen some of the most amazing things. [00:24:28] There was something I saw that Kyle Hatley did. I think it was called "Head" one of my first few years at Fringe. And I, I was so blown away by it. You see amazing things being done by high-end artists in Kansas City during Fringe, and they're just as amazing there as they are anywhere else. And they're helping to support their friend who's writing a play for the first time or somebody who's doing some choreography for the first time. And, and, and /or people like Kyle Hatley who wanted to experiment with a play idea that he had. So I just, to me, that's where the real art is, and I don't think it gets enough attention. [00:25:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that answer. And yeah, attention and funding, I think are our biggest complaints. [00:25:16] Sandy Woodson: One comes with the other. You get the attention first and then hopefully the funding. [00:25:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, exactly. And then also, is there something arts related that you've wanted to try? Maybe another form of art, but you just haven't yet. Or, you know, it's kind of been intimidating to, to start. What's one other art thing that you'd love to do? [00:25:38] Sandy Woodson: Absolutely. When I saw-- well first I saw it here-- Nick Cave did it during open spaces using multiple projections. And then I saw it when I was in France. That was an experience with-- in fact, right now there's something going on in Kansas City with Van Gogh, that's doing multiple projections in a space. But the one in France was an old hollowed out quarry with 50 foot walls. And I don't even know how many projectors they had in there, but anyway, it was such an amazing-- that kind of an immersive experience. I love projections, Stephen Goldblatt, who does this stuff for quixotic. I love that. I think it adds so much to the performance when, when they use those projections. So video projection is probably something I would like to try at some point. [00:26:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that sounds awesome. I did see an ad for that Van Gogh experience and I was like, "Oh man, I, I, if I can get up there, I'm have to do it." [00:26:38] Sandy Woodson: Yes. [00:26:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then my final question is, at the end of your life, what's one art-related experience that you would want to experience again for the last time? [00:26:52] Sandy Woodson: Gosh, I mean, to me, I almost see art everywhere. I mean, I love architecture. I love fashion. I love jewelry design. There's so many things I love. Probably it would have to be going back to the Louvre, maybe? The last time I went, I dedicated two full days to going top to bottom. That was freaking stunning. So I'd probably try to go there one more time. [00:27:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That's on my a definite bucket list. I haven't, I haven't made it there yet, but it's coming. [00:27:27] Sandy Woodson: You got to go to Napoleon's apartments. I also love furniture and decorative arts, and good lord, that stuff was amazing. [00:27:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Yeah, no, I will definitely have to do that. Well, thank you so much for sharing your stories and know what you're up to and, and all these exciting things, I'm just, I'm so thrilled for you. I'm glad you're in a place where you can really follow these passions of telling people's stories that need to be told. So I think this is really cool and congratulations on this new adventure. And is there a way for people to stay in touch with you or if they have questions or anything like that, is there a way for them to connect with you? [00:28:08] Sandy Woodson: Sure. You can email me at Sandy Woodson, S A N D Y W O O D S O N12@gmail.com. [00:28:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you so very much, Sandy, for everything that you have brought to the world. Thank you so much for continuing to explore art and to share people's stories and to be a voice for those that haven't had that opportunity. And thank you again so much for being here today. And to everyone who has listened to this episode, if you're feeling inspired by it, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:28:52] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:29:01] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Giovanna Salas! Giovanna likes to create, and she has dabbled in and become proficient in multiple medias, including art, literature, and film. She is the founder and owner of Heart of Hollywood Magazine and Motion Pictures, and in this episode, she shares about the importance of making opportunities more accessible for artists along with her heart and passion for helping others' succeed. (Double fun fact: the cover image for this week's episode is not only a recent cover of Giovanna's Heart of Hollywood magazine, but it also featured Sandy Rodriguez, one of our former guests!)    Get in touch with Giovanna Salas: https://www.heartofhollywoodmagazine.com/ | https://www.hohmp.com/ Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 72 - Giovanna Salas [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Giovanna Salas. She likes to create, and she has dabbled in and become proficient in many multiple medias, including art, literature, and film. She also is the founder and owner of Heart of Hollywood Magazine and Motion Pictures. And she also has a streaming platform that is in development, I believe. And I can't wait to dive in and hear all about the different things that you are up to. So thank you so much for being here. I really look forward to our conversation today. [00:02:57] Giovanna Salas: Hi Lindsey! [00:03:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi! Well, I was wondering if you don't mind just starting us off by telling us maybe a little bit about your background, how you got involved in art and kind of go from there. [00:03:11] Giovanna Salas: Absolutely. Well, first of all, I want to thank you for inviting me to your podcast. It's a pleasure for me to be here and well to make a story short, I started as a painter. You know, I, I love art. I use that oil media. That's that's my favorite. And one thing take to the other, I am visual person. And so I dive into learning photography and video. And so I have an interest later on into becoming a filmmaker. And so that's how everything is. [00:03:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Okay. And so then you decided to become a filmmaker, which is a huge endeavor and undertaking. So can you tell us about that and what led you to that interest in that passion to create even your own company? [00:03:59] Giovanna Salas: Well, I wanted to become a film director. And so once I came to Hollywood, I saw there was very difficult. It's a lot of difficulties. And in word, it was not going to be easy. And the best way was to learn the business and learn what happened behind the scenes. So I began working with a couple productions and after that, I decided it was time to open my own company because I wanted to bring opportunities for people, they just started. Artists are underground, I feel. They, also people that were foreigner. Okay. And so for everyone, I just wanted to make it a place they have a door open for everyone that they need. It. [00:04:47] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. And so now with your company, and I realized that there are three sort of branches to it. Can you tell us a little bit about each one and sort of who you, you serve as a result of the different branches and, and how that all works together? [00:05:04] Giovanna Salas: Sure. So, well, the company is called Heart of Hollywood Motion Pictures. And from that we had three different divisions. The first division, that's how we started in post-production. So the services that we offer was like color corrections, you know, edit of scoring. We've put together different individuals working in the industry and sometimes here and there, you know, behind the scenes, maybe a project that was already done, but they needed to do something where we can help with some of those services. And also giving consultations such as like screenplays, you know, like a script doctor, I had different consultants. So sometimes I do consultations, but it's more like a producer restructure. And we have a modern consultant. So it's along, all the kind of what it takes to, to get your, your project or package in a, in a better format. I think that's, that's the first one. [00:06:01] The second one is that the vision for the Heart of Hollywood Magazine. And this has started because we want, we have members within the company and we're gonna, we want it to give more exposure to the members. Well, when we published the first magazine, everybody was very positive about and now that became three years of publications. So we are very happy of what we're going. And I believe that the magazine is like a car for everyone to share the stories, get into the car and get more exposure. But also the purpose of this magazine is for our to get inspiration and motivated. [00:06:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then the third branch is something you're still in development for, or is that also live? [00:06:51] Giovanna Salas: No, we, well, I mean, working the third is a, an a streaming platform of Heart of Hollywood Cinema, and I been working with my engineer team. And it's not easy. It's been for a couple of years, like I say, but we have tested. We created last year. We tested with production. The, I was a producer for a, the Brain 19 Fashion Films. Okay. We did it virtually during COVID and we use the streaming platform to for, for the films. So I think it would take us a little bit longer to, to make it available for all the public, but the finally will be an option for all the filmmakers. They need to put their films in other platform. It's good to have different platforms such as, you know, Amazon and Netflix and all of that other ones that we already know. But it's also good to have another option and where you can put your films as well. [00:07:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's amazing. Well, it sounds like you are making such a difference for so many different people in so many areas, so yeah. Kudos to you for doing that. That's just amazing. And, you know, you mentioned at the beginning that you personally felt like it was, and I'm sure you're not alone, that it was really difficult to to kind of get into that world. Do you mind telling us a little bit more about your own story of how, you know, some of the challenges that you faced as you were starting off in Hollywood? [00:08:27] Giovanna Salas: Well, I will say one of my first challenges was the language because my first language is not English. It's a Spanish. And so I think the not, I didn't grow in the US, like I came here and I start, you know, working here in the entertainment. And one thing that I know is, is if you don't have connections in LA or people working in the industry, it's very difficult. And a lot of those connections are not easy to build. You have to be in the right place, meet the right people that have family members sometimes. And sometimes you don't, you don't have, you know, family members, so you don't have any connection. So, and then you have the problem with an artist trying to showcase but nobody wants to listen. So I think the why, because people pay more attention. I go rather with a person that has 30 more years experience or 20 years experience, or how are they going to get the experience if they don't get the chance to showcase what they can do or what they can bring to the table? [00:09:34] And so my, I don't, I feel there is not many companies that perhaps are really seriously approaching this issue. And at the beginning of my company, my number one priority was to approach this issue, was to make an statement that this company, it was going to be for the artist that needed. Yes, we're welcoming everyone. There is very well-known, you know, celebrity or a producer, but I think that we all, as artists, we have a responsibility and especially with work in the entertainment about helping all of them, it's about bringing that talent. Otherwise, we cannot move forward. [00:10:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I think that's incredible. Thank you for sharing that story. And I love what you're doing because I've not personally been in that particular world, but, you know, as an artist, as well, I certainly understand some of that initial struggle of kind of getting basically getting your, especially your first job, because that can be, you know, the most challenging and because you know, you're new and I understand that. So yeah, no, that's incredible what you all do. And so congratulations on all of your success and the fact that it just keeps growing and growing is, is huge. That's so exciting. [00:11:01] Giovanna Salas: Yes. I feel very happy about what everything that has been developing and working. And I can tell you how many times I, I thought about quitting, closing the company, not pursuing because it was so many challenges. So the beginning, I just was myself and my ideas and my beliefs, and if what's going to work or not, and my personal finances. So it was a lot of the things to take into consideration. Also to make sure the, I, I do not fit all. There are people, you know, you have family members, you have things all around there, and sometimes all those things can work against you. But if you truly have the passion and that desire to see a three-year vision and you want to pursue that. Don't give that, that don't, don't stop. You have to, to make it happen because otherwise I don't think they, eh, we can end up truly happy. And every, every morning when I wake up, I feel very happy or what I'm doing. [00:12:09] I feel happy that through the years I am developing a team, you know, a more people and I had to train them. I had to explain, and I had to, for example, with the magazine, it's a thing behind it. And then I have a graphic designer. Sometimes it's new. Sometimes I had to explain a lot of things. Sometimes I had to train a customer representative that share, you know, who we are, but in a way, not of we are selling our market. And we, I just tried to tell him, you know, we are dealing with relationships with, with people. And, and I think that, that it has to be community. And so I never taught the, I will be sending magazines in another state, so, or even in another countries. And so that to me is incredible because the first time that I decided to make the magazine, I made the first magazine and it took me seven months just to plan, to get to the first draft in order to communicate my ideas to a graphic designer. And then looking for a team is not an easy challenge. You had to see many people strive to see who sees this issue and who just wants a job for a job, you know, who really cares or not. [00:13:27] And so I would say that in my theme, everyone is not this. My magazine editor is amazing. The contributors are, you know what I can say. They have seen something in the magazine. They wanted to be part of it. We just did a cover shoot in the Netherlands with a whole production team. We have the videos behind the scenes. So you guys want to watch it on the website. Is there any, so other, other things coming along. And so I'm constantly working. I think that would be one of the first ones say I would like to get a clone. But anyway. So I think my one thing that is very important to me right now is my time. I believe the time is very precious. You have to be very careful. You have to think about who you were spending your time with, who you are given your time, and make sure that that time is viable because sometimes people think that what we have time and the truth is that we don't, what we don't have is time. [00:14:28] And so every second, and every minute and you know, doing hours. I think we should try to enjoy ourselves. We should try to do those simple things about walking outside, you know, create an art. And when I started in the entertainment, I, I quit painting pretty much. I mean, not completely. I would make a painting once in a while or once every three months and not long ago because of the COVID and everything that has happened. I was feeling, I am very positive person. I always encouraging the people to do things and helping them in the projects, giving consultations. And then not long ago, like three months ago I started feeling depressed. I started feeling, what am I doing, where my life is going, like what I need to do, you know? [00:15:21] And so I started to paint again and I started to write as well, and I felt I gained a life and this is important for me because if I'm okay, and I can be a creative person as well, and then I can be more productive for my clients, I can be more productive for the team and for the company. And so, because I'm a workaholic, so I saw marriage my time, like working all the time and, and just lately I'm also beginning to learn and understand to take some time for me for, I can be more productive for all. [00:15:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And that is such an important realization to come to. I'm so glad that you're prioritizing yourself because you're absolutely right. You can't pour into someone else's life with an empty cup, so you have to start full yourself and, and so I'm so glad that you're doing that and prioritizing. That is so, so important. And again, you are just doing such amazing things for people. And so I'm, I'm curious, do any stories in particular come to mind of maybe people that you've helped, clients that you've helped that, you know, really may not have had a different opportunity had you not been there? [00:16:39] Giovanna Salas: Yes. I, I, I feel very happy with the, with the people that I have work. So one of the, in our, my team members, I think, eh, they sometimes when people come in and work for my company and things like that, I always tell them, you know, you have other opportunities or, or, or job opportunities and they can, you can you know, at that. Yes. So let me know, you know, and some in that happen and I feel very bad, you know, but at the same time, if they can grow better, you know, I I'm happy with that. That's, that's part of the team members. I always feel very sentimental when, you know, someone goes to another company. It is like that. And the reason is perhaps because one day I will be able to have their resources for my team. Right. And sometimes so they're big, big, big companies, you know, they, they do have those resources, but that's all about timing and about we, we maintain very good communication. [00:17:35] I like to, you know, be be in contact with, with everyone that has been part of the company, because I see them as family. For, for my clients, I have helped different people, like all the way from like models, I have helped. Well, one of them that I remember, I I was working with an actress and she wanted to have a manager, and at the time I was working with, with a talent, talent and management company. So I was helping her and, but I was producing something else. And then she got curious about that. And so I trained her to be a casting director. Lately I was working with a client and when he asks for consultations, you know, kind of personal coaching and his personality is great and he can do multiple, multiple things, but sometimes when you do multiple things, it's hard to focus and one thing, right. [00:18:30] Or what it will make you some type of income or how the finances. So he found me on LinkedIn and he approached me. And I go, look, yes, I can, I will do a consultation, but I had to charge a fee because right now my time is very important. So I sent in an email is very, very professional, and oh, my! Well, I was surprised he did took the consultations. We worked for a couple months together and he organized his acting career. He, I helped him to do an structure for a podcast. I thought I helped him to do the structure of the memberships, how to, you know, get the, his packages and all of that and making company. So I'm not, I like to develop structures and business models. And so he was very happy. He's, he really just became a big supporter of my company telling all their people how they, he feels great about, about the consultation. That those were his words. Yeah. Yeah. For the magazine. Yes, this is a producer, eh, they told me that his, that his film, his documentary film, it was getting better and more publicity after he was published in our magazine. [00:19:49] So the local newspaper from his state decided to do an interview with, with him and, you know, sales are going up and things like that. So we hear a lot of good feedback from clients, eh, besides to, you know, get a publication in our magazine. And that makes me very happy because one thing that I want is also the advertisement that we put there. I always suggest, you know, make sure that whatever, even in our own articles there, the information is clear. It's focused, it's inspirational and is useful because if it is not useful, people not going to pay attention. [00:20:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, like you said, you have to choose how to spend your time and you have to be wise about it. I mean, like you said, until you have your clone, you're just one person. I'm so glad that you have a team to, to help support you now, though, that that's such a, what, what a relief. [00:20:42] Giovanna Salas: Oh, and that was very hard. It was very hard to find a theme and it was very hard to find the consultants. It, it just, it took me probably like a year, a year and a half to, to put that together because people comes and goes and, but if someone shares they, and they are, they are good in what they do and they want to pursue what they want to do best as a part of a team is incredible. Magic happens, things happen, and everybody is happy. Yeah. And I, I'm very trying to be very social, fun, you know, I always ask, "how do you feel, how do you feel working with me? What would you suggest? Can you brainstorm?" So I like to have that interaction with, with the thing that I have, because there is not better way to know if you are doing something proper or offering good services to the audience, your own team doesn't like it or like it, right? [00:21:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, that's, that's good. Again, I'm glad you have, you have good people to cheer you on. I am curious-- is, are there any moments that kind of stand out to you, that have an encounter with art, whether it was, you know, you experiencing someone else's art or watching somebody experience something that you've created that really kind of is a moment to remember? [00:22:15] Giovanna Salas: Yes. Yes. Well, several moments to remember. [00:22:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, for sure. [00:22:21] Giovanna Salas: To be honest with you, but the, I have I guess was when someone requests me to paint something for them. That's a very special moment for me because I started as a painter and, I, at that time years ago, my dream was just to become an oil painter, go to France and live like an artist. But all the things change it and I wanted to now being the entertainment and I'm doing this because I know I can do it. I know I can help others. And that's very important in, but I think that going back it, when someone see something and my artwork, that's very special to me, that means something. [00:23:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I I'm sure that there are going to be some of our listeners who would love to reach out to you or get involved with your work or, or at least follow what you do. Is there a way for us to connect with you? [00:23:28] Giovanna Salas: They can go to the Heart of Hollywood Magazine dot com. They can go also to H O H M P, which is our productions for production. One of the, one of the things that I want to mention now that we're talking about art, it's been eight years probably that I have not make a proper, eh, exhibition, art, art exhibition. So, and I'm preparing, I'm painting new artwork is completely different from what I have painted in the past and I'm going to make an art exhibition, in Los Angeles on 2022 in March and the location, we're looking for a location and all of that. But I would like to invite everyone to go to the art show. [00:24:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, how exciting. That is so exciting. And you said in March is when you want to do that? [00:24:19] Giovanna Salas: Yes, I am planning to, well, you will be the first one. I'm going to send you a link for that in a yes, because this it's so much, it's so much that I'm being, I'm keeping for myself during this time. And it has been a very challenges years. And I will like to share not just my mind, but also my heart with people and with the with those ones, they have a love for. [00:24:50] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That's, that's really special. Good. Well, I'm excited about that too. So thank you for all of those links that we can go and check out. And I do have a couple of questions that I like to ask my guests if you're okay with that? [00:25:04] Giovanna Salas: Of course. [00:25:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So my first question is what is a change that you would like to see happen in the art world? Whether that's, you know, about creating art or displaying art or or making it available to people or basically what's, what's one thing that you would love to change about the art world? [00:25:30] Giovanna Salas: Hmm. That's a difficult one. I think there, I would like to see more united platforms of artists where they can come together. I'm trying to, we, we added a section in our magazine for artists they will like to sell their paintings or their sculptures or some sort of art, okay, media in the magazine. And so, but I would like to know. I think it needs to be more opinions for, for artists where they can display their artwork besides being in the galleries. But through that a little bit more with respect, because sometimes when you see our work in restaurants or see artwork in coffee shops, you really don't get an appreciation for the art. Sometimes you really pay attention. But I don't think that the public is, has information. So I, I, one thing that I would change I guess, is if it is a coffee shop, if it is a place or a location where there is not the, the location is not a gallery, but you want to exhibitit artwork, I think that there is a way to do it and it can be helpful for the artist and it can be helpful for the business. [00:26:56] So I believe that that can be something that is possible and to be done, but I think that those businesses that have those artwork in the locations, they should do like kind a spotlight on the, on the artist or make it a little bit more visual for the clients to see that in half of their operation. Because I think the ones that are they so powerful, the ones that you are in that, that they are in the wall of the restaurant, the coffee shop, boutique, or anything like that, it, you think that it's just part of the wall. You think they're just part of that, because it just kind of belongs in. I don't know how to explain it. It just was meant to be there or something like that. [00:27:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:27:44] Giovanna Salas: But it's, but it has a, so that's why another is bad. It's actually very good, but that's why I believe there needs to be more on spotlight of the artwork and say, "Hey, you know, we do have these, you know, feature or something, you know, a newsletter." Because I don't see that much. The other day I enter into a coffee shop. I saw some paintings from a local artist here in Hollywood. He was doing more like an, a street artwork. It was painting people crossing the street, Hollywood signs, things like that. But I thought it was pretty cool. And I didn't see like an expo, like of the artists in that location. And so anyway, I know it took me a while, but I was thinking I have to give you a better response. And I think that, that w that would be the one I think, I think they, the locations can do much better. [00:28:35] Lindsey Dinneen: I think that's a great response and I absolutely agree with you. Okay. And then my second question is, is there a form of art that you have personally not tried yet either just because you haven't had time or you felt intimidated or whatever reason but that you would love to explore at some point? [00:28:57] Giovanna Salas: Yes, it is one form of art that I would like to explore and that would be sculpture. And I think it would be more of that time if I had the time to do it. But that always interests me. [00:29:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Nice. Okay. And then my final question is at the end of your life, what is the one art related experience that you would want to experience for the last time? [00:29:25] Giovanna Salas: The smell of the art supplies, the smell of the paint. [00:29:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I like that. Yeah, it's possibility, right? That's like, what's going to come out today. I love that. That's a great answer. Well, oh my goodness. This has been amazing. I'm so just so amazed by you and what you bring to the world and your, your company and how much impact it has. Thank you so much for doing what you do. I'm really excited that you're still painting and you're going to be exhibiting. I think all of that is just fantastic. So it was amazing to talk with you today. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. [00:30:09] Giovanna Salas: I appreciate your time because without you and you know people they have contacted also somehow, at least in about the Heart of Hollywood Magazine, all the company, without, without you Lindsey, we really cannot go far because, eh, there is so many people, so many company, entertainment companies in LA, you know, so it's it's not easy, but with your help, you know, we are letting people know about Heart of Hollywood motion pictures, Heart of Hollywood Magazine. And I'm very, very thankful they you're taking the time to interview. [00:30:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course it's been an absolute pleasure. Well, and thank you so much again to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:31:04] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:31:13] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In this week's episode, I again welcome Ashley Taylor! Ashley was our very first podcast guest and we're delighted she came back to share about her manifesto to artists about the importance of intentionality in every choice when creating and sharing their work. She offers blunt yet insightful advice about how artists can be meaningful in their works' presentation. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of Ashley & Lindsey when they were promoting the 2019 premiere of "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker.")   Get in touch with Ashley Taylor: https://www.ashleyrebeccataylor.wordpress.com  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 71 - Ashley Taylor [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am extremely delighted to have as my guest today a returnee. She actually had the very, very first episode that I ever released with a guest was with Ashley Taylor. So thank you, Ashley, for being back. I'm just beyond excited. Ashley is a dancer. She is a choreographer, teacher. She is also a writer. In fact, maybe sneak peak. Can I say that you're working on a novel? [00:02:47] Ashley Taylor: Of course you can! [00:02:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Yeah. And then also, goodness gracious. I think your artistic list goes on and on. You can paint, draw, what can't you do? Maybe we should start there. [00:03:02] Ashley Taylor: Well, I'm going to answer that question later. [00:03:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Fair. That's true. Anyway, artist extraordinaire, very creative and very good at what she does. So, Ashley, thank you for being back. [00:03:17] Ashley Taylor: Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to chat with you again about artsy things. [00:03:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, first I'm really curious to know sort of what what you've been up to lately, especially considering, you know, when we did our recording last year, of course it was COVID central and it kind of still is, but things have changed and opened back up. So I'm curious how you've been able to navigate sort of getting back into more artsy things? [00:03:50] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. So I would not say I'm fully back in, in the way that I would like to be, but that's fine. I've had the time to explore a lot of writing and editing and found a community of creative writing people, which is great. So we meet virtually once a week and read each other what we're working on and give feedback, which has been wonderful, highly recommend creative community as a side note. So yeah, I, as you said, I have been working on a novel. I, I am editing it. I think this is my third draft right now. I've got some feedback recently from some readers, so I'm editing it. And the goal is to get it sent to some agents and see what the possibilities are there in the next couple of months. [00:04:44] So that'll be, that'll be an adventure for sure. In addition to that, I am starting to gather ideas for another writing project, which would be my own and other people's stories about being in the professional dance world and the good, the bad and the ugly of that. But focusing on the good hopefully. And so, yeah, writing, lots of writing. As far as dance goes, that's my other main thing. And I am starting to do some auditions and have a performance with you coming up, which I'm super excited about. And yeah, I that's pretty much it for now. I will see if any other opportunities arise, but I am trying to go with the flow. [00:05:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and by going with the flow, obviously you are also very involved in lots of things. So that seems like quite a bit to keep you busy, not to mention, you know, you're a wife and mother and, you know, details. Well, congratulations on finishing or working on draft three of the novel. I mean, first of all, that's a huge undertaking to finish, let alone to get to this next point. So congratulations on that. And obviously I'm wishing you the best in your publishing journey and I'm sure our listeners are as well. And once that happens, you'll have to be on again and talk all about your book. [00:06:15] Ashley Taylor: I would be glad to do that. [00:06:17] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. And then so you mentioned getting back into various forms of art. And then I'm also curious because when we talked last time, you were essentially a brand new mom. And now you-- I mean, I guess you'd maybe consider yourself still kind of a brand new mom, I don't know-- but... [00:06:44] Ashley Taylor: It changes every day pretty much, a little bit. [00:06:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I'm curious how that has impacted your either expression of art or I mean, obviously ability to do art changes a little bit I'm sure. Or a lot, but I'm just curious if it, if you feel that also being a mom or having a little one has, has impacted just the way that you express yourself through art. [00:07:13] Ashley Taylor: Hmm. That's a great question. I think, I think I have two answers to that. So the first thing is now that I'm a mom, I obviously have additional demands on my time and energy. So that's, it can be a difficult thing, but it's also a good thing in the sense that I am a lot pickier now about what artistic endeavors I spend time on. So early on in any artistic person's career or foray into artistic things, just kind of taking whatever opportunities come your way, because you want to get out there and get recognized and build experience. And I've done that. And I've spent a lot of time doing that in the past. And I-- it's not that I have every experience I'd ever want under my belt and you know, I'm an expert now-- certainly not, but I think I am a little less willing to just kind of do whatever at this point. I'm interested in spending time on projects that I find really meaningful, which means I weed things out very quickly if I see audition listings or whatever it may be, and I think that's good. [00:08:25] I think, I think it's good to have that perspective now. Like I'm not, I'm not desperate enough to just do whatever. So that's good. And then as far as how it affects the expression of art, I do think it's not like I'm thinking about my son all the time while I'm making art, but I, I do think you, there's less pressure to throw your entire identity onto your art, because you know that you have other more important things waiting for you at home. Just gives you a different perspective and you realize you are more than, you're more than being a mother. You're also more than being an artist. You are all of those things at once. And you get to use the wholeness of that. You bring the wholeness of that into whatever you're doing at the moment, if that makes sense. [00:09:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it absolutely does make sense. And I think that's really an amazing perspective to have, because it is so easy to get caught up in, you know, I'm, I'm a dancer. I've always been a dancer. I, you know, struggled with that myself quite a bit last year with COVID and not dancing for a year. I mean, not performing for a year and feeling like I've always identified myself, you know. When people meet me and I tell them that I'm a dancer. They're like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense." You know, it's just part of my DNA. And, and so there were many times last year I sort of had these like identity crisis moments of, "Well, who am I without this?" And, you know, and what, what do I need for my soul to, to feel like I can still identify as a dancer? Yeah. So I definitely relate to that, but I love the perspective that you have of sort of there's, there's more to you. Like you have, you have a myriad of sides to you and they're, they're important and they're all valuable, I guess. So, yeah, like that. [00:10:30] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. And I think we, we do ourselves a disservice by identifying as only one thing, honestly. Because we're all so much more than that. [00:10:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. So earlier you had alluded to the fact that you're writing more about dance and people's experiences and things like that. And I know recently you wrote a really intriguing blog post that I kind of wanted to dive into a little bit. It was a manifesto of sorts, if that's fair, about some trends that you've been noticing in, I suppose, the dance world in particular, but in general in the arts world. And I'm curious if you don't mind sharing what you wrote about and sort of your thought process behind all that? [00:11:19] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. So I think the idea for this stemmed from, you know, I haven't performed in a while either, and, but I have seen over the past year or two, I've seen a few companies' virtual performances. And even that prompted me to think back to performances I've been involved in in the past. And I mean, I'll just be blunt. I'm pretty blunt in the blog post. There are times when I'm watching dance and I'm a dancer and I am actually bored. And I was trying to figure out why is that? Because it's not that it's not at all that the dancers aren't talented, they're very talented. And I came to realize it's because the choreography is rather mediocre. And I, you know, I have to couch this by saying everybody sees something different in a piece of art. And some people will find a piece of art meaningful that another person will not, right?. We all know it's, it's very subjective. [00:12:24] However, what I think, what I think people get caught up in sometimes is, you know, somebody who is not familiar with dance, might watch a dance and think, "Wow, they're so talented." Or, "Wow, that looks so hard," or, "Wow, that was beautiful." And those are all good reactions, right? But as a dancer, myself, I might have similar reactions, but I also might ask, "Okay, well, what are you trying to say through this dance?" I'm like, "What's the point of this? Why are we doing this?" And what I kind of argue for in the, in the post is like, I, I'm not always sure that artists are actually asking that question, 'cause especially dancers, we love dancing. We love doing our art. We love it. So we do it because that's what we do and we've trained, we've spent years studying it and we think, well, we have to dance. That's what we worked all this time for. And so then we end up putting out these dances that might be fun to do as performers, they might be meaningful personally as performers, and the audience might be wowed by our talent. [00:13:35] But did they actually get something meaningful out of it? Like, did you communicate through that dance? And I don't know. I guess I've been, I've been thinking lately that we really need to do a better job of being clear about what we're trying to say and what our intent is. So like, if the intent is, I just want to entertain people. So it's like, I don't know if the Radio City Rockettes say, or a fun movie. That's like a goofy chick flick. Okay. Entertainment. Great. No problem with that. But I think what we do is forget that there is a difference in some regard between entertainment, and art or between just like pure creative expression and art. So entertainment is, you know, you walk away and you're like, "Wow, I feel relaxed. I got out of my head for a minute." So it was great. They were talented. That was fun. Creative expression is like, any, anything that you do that's, that's creative, artistic, which is always great. [00:14:32] And it's like, I baked some cookies. I painted a sunset. I, I made a dance, right? That's all great, but I, I feel that a primary-- what's the word-- a primary purpose of art is to communicate something, to express something. And it has to be something from which the viewer can glean meaning, and it doesn't have to be the exact meaning that the artist intended, but there should be something like you should react to a piece of art in my opinion. So I questioned the approach of artists who don't, who are not clear about what they're trying to communicate. And therefore are not even editing it appropriately in order to communicate that more. So an example that I use in the, in the post is just because you know how to write words down and you find some interesting words and then you put them on a page that does not mean that you've actually written a story, right? [00:15:37] There's a lot that goes into writing a story with characters and plot and you know, development and all of this, right? So you can't just put words on a page and say, "I made art now. You know, enjoy it, pay for it." It's like, well, why, why would anybody do that? They could have written the page, the words on the page. So in, in dance, similarly, I feel like we pick some music and we're like, well, we have to dance because we have a show coming up and we gotta make money. So we'll make a dance about something random and put it up, put it on stage. And like here's talented dancers and here's like a couple of interesting moves. And we put it on stage and we call it art and then people don't come and we lament the fact that people just don't get it. It's like, well, was there anything there for them to get? Like, that's really my question. It's like, I don't think with the amount of content there is these days, like I just don't think it's realistic to assume that people will want to come watch you just because you're talented. Like there, the world is full of, the world is full of art and entertainment and all these things. So what makes yours different? Like, why are people gonna want to come and then come back? Are you giving them something transformative or something meaningful? Beyond just a spectacle. Does that make sense? [00:16:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. No, I resonate with everything that you're saying so much. Good gravy. Yeah. I, yes, that definitely makes sense. And I think, you know, gosh, a lot of thoughts were forming in my head as you were talking about it, but working kind of backwards. One thing that I just thought about too, is that with COVID one of the lovely things to come out of it, I suppose, is the fact that the world opened up even more. And so art that may have only been accessible to a certain geographic region is now being live-streamed across the world, you know, or, or it's been recorded and made into a film that's then, you know, again, available literally anywhere. So I think you touched on a really good point. That's even more relevant today. And that is that there's a lot, there's a lot of art. So what makes you different? [00:17:57] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think artists sometimes sort of have this sense of entitlement, of like, well, I have years of training and I spent money and time and energy to do this. So you should come watch me because of that. And it's like, that's not fair. I mean, I don't know. I think that's unrealistic and I would love, I would love it if people came just to watch us because we're talented, but it's unrealistic. And so we need to give them something more than that. Okay. [00:18:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think sort of to that point, I mean, you would hold any other profession to that too, right? So just because a doctor has trained for years and years, super highly educated, if he constantly misdiagnosis and, you know, or treats people terribly, you're not coming back. There's plenty of doctors in the world, or, you know, if a plumber doesn't, you know, again, highly educated probably, you know, years of experience, but if they can't fix the problem, you don't go back. [00:19:03] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. [00:19:04] Lindsey Dinneen: So I think, you know, there's a lot of, I agree that, that there is some entitlement of sort of like, well, I have devoted my life to this, so then you should devote your life to me, you know, or whatever. [00:19:18] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. [00:19:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and I think it's, it's actually something I've thought about before. You also have to be really careful as, as an artist. And as, let's say, you know, a show director, a company director, or whatever that you just recognize the fact that it will always matter more to you than to anyone else. So if you're going to be effective at what you do, you, like you said, you have to have a message that you can, that can be translated that that's not. [00:19:48] Ashley Taylor: And I think in order to do that, you really have to, you have to have an editing eye, and/or you need outside perspectives telling you "I'm not getting it" before it goes out to a wider audience. And like, think of the book publishing industry, you know, your book goes through multiple rounds of edits and proofreads and suggestions before it ever hits the shelves of a bookstore, unless you're self publishing, but you still should go through those steps if you're self publishing. So there have been many outside eyes looking at this project and saying, "I'm not quite getting it" or like "that character needs something more," but with the average dance company, in my personal experience, that doesn't happen. So there's no accountability to make sure that what you're trying to say is coming across. And again, you don't always have to have a message, but, but there needs to be, you need to be clear about the fact that you don't have a message, then you can't try half heartedly to put some kind of message in there. And it just doesn't go anywhere. If that makes sense. [00:20:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So I'm, I'm gathering you're not a fan of the whole Untitled Number One concept. [00:21:03] Ashley Taylor: Oh my gosh. [00:21:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh. Oh man. I think that should be banned in the art world, man. You have to come up with something. [00:21:12] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, good grief. Yeah, that just seems, it seems lazy to me and I, yeah, again, I said this would be blunt. [00:21:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, no, for sure. And, but I think that's, that's actually really interesting. I actually, I think you touched on something that's important and it is blunt, but I think that essentially part of what you're getting at is if you don't do this self editing or outside editing, it is lazy, right? Like you aren't doing your due diligence, you aren't kind of respecting the art form in a way. [00:21:46] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Or you're assuming that the art form is so sacred or something that people will come anyway. I'm trying to think of an example that's not dance, but I don't know. I mean, even, you know, modern art, a lot of people don't get modern art, visual art. So I, and I feel like sometimes modern artists are like, "Well, I painted this, so you should look at it because it's painting and because I'm talented and I'm an artist and here it is. It's art." And, to which I would respond "Fine, but don't expect anybody to feel the same way about it than you do." I mean, I don't know. I think you have to communicate something, even if you're communicating everything is meaningless. Like, okay. That's, that's a message. But anyway. [00:22:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. That's a choice. Yeah. It's interesting that you put it kind of like that, because that is something that-- yeah-- so our friends over at Kansas City Aerial Arts, apparently in their rehearsal process when they're actively choreographing and then sort of doing the edits like you're talking about, their sort of funny catchphrase is, "Well, that's a choice." And, and I love it because it's true. You, you have lots of choices along the process of creating art and editing art. And you know, you can make a choice that ends up needing to be changed in the future. I mean, that's, that's what happens a lot too. I mean, goodness, actually a real world example is in going back and looking at some of the choreography that I've previously done, or right now that I'm resetting on our dancers, is looking back and going, "What was that, you know, you know?" [00:23:39] Ashley Taylor: We all do it. [00:23:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, and perspective. And you go, "That doesn't make sense. Why would I have that person come on from that side of the..." You know, just it's so funny, but it is so important to go back and, and improve every time I think too. [00:23:54] Ashley Taylor: I was going to go off on another little rant-- not a ranch-- just a tangent. Yeah, I, yeah. So back when you were saying, talking about choices, "Well, that's a choice," so I don't have a problem with choices and I, and again, I don't think every piece of art is meant to be loved necessarily. So if you're choosing to communicate everything is meaningless and it's this very dark piece of art about that. You know, I don't have a problem with that as long as everything you do has a reason behind it and it supports your message. And I think a lot of times people miss that part. So I feel like, I think that we should start with the why and then go to the how and the what, and, and I'll explain that in a second, but I think a lot of people start with the what. They're like, "Well, we have to make a ballet." [00:24:42] And then they go into the why sort of, if they even get there, but more or less, it's just, well, we had to make a ballet. So here's a fun little piece of music. And, you know, we'll put people on stage versus, to say, to go back and say why first? Why am I even doing this? Why am I here today? What am I trying to say? And, and once you know that, then you can say, "Okay, now how best do I say that?" So, personal example really quick. I have started writing things before and I thought it would be in prose form. And like, as soon as I started, I thought, "You know what? This wants to be a poem." And I can't explain it other than that, it was like this wants to be poetry, not prose. And I think, you know, in that case, it worked out better to express the idea that way or, you know, I know we're a ballet company. I know we normally dance on pointe, but this piece really needs to be danced barefoot, and that will enhance the vision of what I'm trying to say. So again, it's like your why is informing your what ,or your how versus the other way around, if that makes sense. [00:25:48] So again, it's just, it's just about like every, every choice you make artistically needs to have a reason behind it and you need to be evaluating how that fits into your broader vision for this piece. Everything should support it. I remember in college my professors saying every, every person on stage needs to have a reason to be there. And if they're doing the exact same thing as everybody else, you need to question why they're there. So again, just having a reason. I'll stop there. [00:26:18] Lindsey Dinneen: No, no, that's great advice. I love that. Actually I remember in choreography classes in college, them talking about if you're going to use the prop, you have to use the prep. You can't just have a random bench on stage that you don't interact with except for the beginning, or maybe the end. Like there don't do that. Or, you know, 'cause again, and what I've been trying to actually communicate to my choreography students is intentionality is everything, right? So you have everything has to have intentionality because I agree with you once you start being like, "Oh, whatever," you run into all the issues that emerged from that of, okay, but so there's no thought put into that. And you, I think you do need to constantly be asking yourself and or what you're editing, "well, why?" Like, as a, as an artist, you should be able to answer that very clearly. [00:27:16] Ashley Taylor: Right. And if the answer is, " well, I just wanted to have them dance on a chair or, well, I just needed to use four couples instead of one." It's like, that's not a really good answer, frankly. So basically what you're saying is you had to adjust or water down the art in order to accommodate some limitation. And like, there are times to do that, but if you don't have to then, for heaven's sake, don't like, anyway, that's my thoughts. Or like, or people will say, "well, the music I want to use is 12 minutes. So this is going to be a 12 minute piece." And it's like three minutes in you've said everything you needed to say. I get it. And now I have to sit here and watch the repetition for another nine minutes. And like, I'm bored out of my mind. It's like, again, not that the dancers aren't good, but I don't need to, I didn't need to see that for 12 minutes. So cut the music, you know, make your, make your art or make your artistic choices work for the art. [00:28:17] Lindsey Dinneen: What a brilliant little way to sum that up. [00:28:21] Ashley Taylor: Thanks. [00:28:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yup. I like that. So I am curious when, okay, so we've talked about, you know, obviously you need to be communicating something, you need to be doing it well, which means a lot of editing and evaluation and re-editing again or whatever, but how do you feel about someone who's like, especially in the dance world, somebody who might produce a piece and their whole thing is, " I just want to make this as abstract as possible." Do you still feel that they need to communicate that that is the intention behind it? Or do you just not care for that style? [00:29:07] Ashley Taylor: I-- this is my personal preference-- if you're going to do that and say this has no story, this has no message, it's just movement on stage, personally, if I'm going to watch a piece that has no meaning, I want it to be still moving. And what I mean by that is, I want the music to be interesting. I don't want some soundscape, you know? You know what I mean? It's like the sort of tuneless music during massage. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I don't want that because that's, that doesn't do anything for me. And then, and then, so I want some interesting music and I want the movement to respond to the music or enhance it and I want it to be memorable movement. So if some, so that if a piece is so beautiful or so dynamic or so in your face, whatever it is that I stopped caring if there's a meaning behind it, I think you've still made art because you've, you've managed to say, to use a metaphor, the earlier metaphor-- you've managed to make really amazing sentences, just beautiful sentences with beautiful words. And I don't care what you're saying, if that makes sense, but so, but that's a challenge. Like that's really challenging to make a dance so interesting that like everybody's just mesmerized, right? [00:30:37] So, and what I, so what I feel often happens is people will say, "Well, I'm going to make this abstract dance and then it's like nothing. Not only is it not communicating, but it's not interesting or unique or dynamic enough to, to move somebody." Like I could probably count on one hand the number of abstract, totally abstract dances. I've seen that I didn't care that there was no meeting. So, and like, I'm not even sure that I could make one. So like it's a challenge, but that's kind of how I would respond to that. Like if you're going to make that choice, fine. But then the art has to be like really different or just really moving. I keep using that word "moving." [00:31:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Dynamic moving. Yeah. I agree. I actually think it's probably a harder artistic challenge to go that route well than it is to be communicating a specific message or story and, and that kind of touches back into what we were talking about with intentionality of, I absolutely agree. So I always say that I love tap dancing because you can't do a sad tap dance. And, and that's, that's the thing about tap is it just would be so absurd and ridiculous. Like you wouldn't be communicating well, if you tried to do that, I suppose trying to do a comedically tragic piece, right? But you know, which I think that could be fun. But my point is that, you know, if, if my goal is to communicate happy, then, you know, tap is a good choice. If my goal is to communicate sadness and loneliness, probably tap's not the best choice. So what would best communicate that? So I, I agree with you. I really liked the idea of starting with the why, and then working backwards. It's like Event Planning 101, right? You know, you, what's the, what's the date of the event and what are you trying to do with that event? Why are you hiring you and then you work back, right? [00:32:38] Ashley Taylor: How do you want people to feel when they walk away from this event? [00:32:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What do you want them to have gained or learned or, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Right. Very cool. Well the manifesto is very well written and really worth the time to read as are Ashley's other musings. Do you mind sharing a link to your blog? [00:33:01] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. So I'm at ashleyrebeccataylor.wordpress.com. And that's Ashley with a Y, Rebecca with two C's, ashleyrebeccataylor.wordpress.com. And if anybody is interested, on the contact page on my blog, I also have links to my YouTube channel, which is for dancing and also my Facebook page, which is for basically all the arts that I do. [00:33:29] Lindsey Dinneen: All of the things. [00:33:30] Ashley Taylor: All the things. Yes. [00:33:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Awesome. I love it. Yeah, cool. Well, thank you for sharing about that, that particular post and kind of your, your musings and your feelings about, about, you know, an artist process and, and I really, I, you know, like you said, it's blunt, but I think it is a good gut check for any time that you do sort of want to just make a quick decision rather than a intentional decision or, you know, so I do think there's a lot of value to that. So thank you for kind of also bringing that back to awareness. I think especially maybe during COVID there were many of us who were like, I just need to create something, but you know, and that there's, there can be a lot of value in that and there can be a lot of value in doing so for you, but if you're going to be doing it for an audience of some kind, then, you know, let's, let's put that intentionality in it. Yeah. I really liked that. Exactly. All right. Well, I have three questions that I would love to ask you if you don't mind answering them. [00:34:45] Ashley Taylor: All right. [00:34:46] Lindsey Dinneen: So, first of all, what change would you like to see in the world of creating art or displaying art? Or making it available to people. So it essentially, what's, what's one big change you'd like to see in the art world? [00:35:03] Ashley Taylor: Well, I think I've spent most of our time talking about it. But actually I, so I have a different answer which is more about the artists themselves in a way. So I don't know about other forms of art so much, but in the ones that I'm involved in, I feel like the message that we get as we get more serious about pursuing them is there's kind of one right way to pursue a career in this field, or, you know, even a serious hobby or whatever. So, you know, if you're a dancer, you kind of get the impression-- it's like, well, if you don't dance in a company or you're not appearing in commercial music videos or whatever it may be, then you're not, you haven't really made it, right? And I think so, you know, this is something I've been wrestling with a lot over the past few years because I don't have a regular dancing gig at the moment. [00:36:00] And I feel like that message is harmful because it kind of makes you feel like you've failed if you either can't do that or don't want to do. And not wanting to go that route is totally valid. So how can we find more creative ways to make the art that we that we're passionate about, which may not be that traditional career route, right? So what I would like to see change is more people feeling the freedom if they don't see what they're looking for, the opportunity they're looking for, go make it right. I mean, create what isn't there yet. And give opportunities to other people who might feel the same way as you do about the career path that you've chosen or are up to not to choose. [00:36:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Amen to that. Yeah, no good answer. But I really, obviously, I personally resonate with that because, you know, I had gotten to a point in my career where the opportunities to be apart of a full-time company here locally, we're just not the right fit anymore. And so that's exactly what I did. I, I didn't see something that could continue to work well, so I created a company. And thankfully there were enough people who were like, "Yes, we agree. We, we like this. Let's go that route." And we, we don't dance all the time. We, we do, you know, two big shows a year and then little gigs here and there throughout. But yeah. And I think that's, I think that's great. [00:37:38] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, and it's, it's great because you don't, you know, there isn't one definition of what a dance company is or there shouldn't be so just because yours doesn't look like someone else's doesn't mean it's not a valid way to make art. Maybe might be an even a better atmosphere for making art. So why not try it, you know? [00:37:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I, yes, exactly. Well, and I, I try to especially tell my students this. But I just think in general, so true what you said. I think that there are many avenues to a dream and if you can remain open to it, to them, to the other options, then you're going to be a lot happier and a lot more fulfilled, you know, in the long run, because there are a lot of ways to do it. Yeah. [00:38:34] Ashley Taylor: Yeah. And you might even be more impactful. I mean, you never know. [00:38:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, absolutely. Yes. Well, great answer. And then my second question is, is there something art related that stands out to you as something that you would love to do that is completely outside of your wheelhouse and maybe you've so far felt intimidated to try it and maybe that kind of held you back from trying it? So essentially, is there something that you artistically would like to venture into, but maybe haven't for whatever reason? [00:39:10] Ashley Taylor: Yeah, there are many things. I mean, if I had my way, I would be good at everything, but I'm not. So I feel like the primary one is I would love to play the violin. I'm not really that musical. I mean, I am as a dancer, but not in the sense of playing an instrument. And I've, I have tried with, with disastrous results to play a few notes on other friend's stringed instruments before, so I would need some training, but yeah, but I would, I would love to try that, that instrument. And I think that'd be really fun. I, so that's very outside of my wheelhouse. The other one that comes to mind is musical theater which is more related to dancing and what I have experienced doing, but it's, it also feels very intimidating to be that well-rounded and sort of that showy in a way, but it sounds like a lot of fun. It always looks like they're having fun. So I'd love to try that too. [00:40:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I totally relate to the musical theater thing. I just love watching it so much that I always thought it'd be really fun, but I am so intimidated by the idea of having to be a triple threat and like, yeah, well, maybe we should audition for something together at some point, just, you know, at least for the experience of it. [00:40:31] Ashley Taylor: What? Abject failure? [00:40:34] Lindsey Dinneen: We can pick each other off the floor. It'll be fine. That'll be fine. Awesome. And then my final question is, at the end of your life, what's the one art-related experience you would want to experience again for the last time? [00:40:52] Ashley Taylor: So this is such a hard question because there are so many. So my answer is kind of funny because there's a, there's a piece of music that I have choreographed to. And I think it's probably the most beautiful piece I've ever heard, although that's hard to say, but it just moves me every time I hear it. And so I started telling people, I want this played at my funeral, which sounds like super morbid, and people would always sort of laugh awkwardly and be like, "Okay." Well, I think what I'm trying to get at with that statement is it's, it's so transcendent to me that that's kind of how I want to go on like thinking of, I'm thinking of a higher plane, I suppose, and something bigger than me and like kind of what lies ahead of death or what lies beyond death. So anyway, that's my little manifesto about it, but the piece of music is "Nearer My God to Thee," by The Piano Guys. So it's an arrangement of a hymn done on cello, multiple cellos, harmonizing with each other, and it is gorgeous, highly recommend listening to it. [00:42:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. That is a gorgeous, gorgeous piece of music. I, I agree with you. It's, it's amazing. There are, I mean, there's a lot of beautiful music out in the world, but there are certain ones that stand out as just every time I hear them, I'm like transported, or you said transcended, are you feeling like that? But yeah, that's yeah, you know, in fact it's really interesting. There was, there was somebody recently who was suggesting to do-- so, so I think there's probably a lot of us that find it difficult to just sit still and meditate. You know, come back to your breath, come back to your breath or whatever, you know, it's, it's hard to do that. [00:42:47] But one suggestion that I heard recently was to put on a piece of music like that. And it's, that's just that you just listen to it and you don't do anything else. You close your eyes, you know, let that experience sort of envelop you and that's what you kind of not like necessarily meditate on, but the idea of like clearing your head and not being distracted by other things and things like that. And yeah, I did it once and it was really amazing because it's just, you know, you get sort of distracted if you're alone, even if you love the piece of music, if you're not like solely focused on that, it's easy to sort of let it not wash over you, right? [00:43:29] Ashley Taylor: Oh yeah. But to bring your full focus to it. Yeah, I can, yeah, I can attest to that as meditative. [00:43:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, indeed. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Ashley, this has been amazing as I fully expected. So thank you so much for being here. And I know we have the information for your website and that's probably a good way for people to connect with you or to at least follow your work. [00:44:03] Ashley Taylor: And I have an email on there too, so I'm always happy to chat about artistic things if that's desired. [00:44:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Perfect. Well, again, I really appreciate you. Thank you for sharing your heart and thank you for being blunt, and, and for challenging us to, to be our best and, and do our best. I think that's really important and I am very excited to follow the path of this novel and can't wait to purchase it when it's available for purchase. [00:44:39] Ashley Taylor: And you'll be the first to know. [00:44:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. All right. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode, and if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:44:57] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:45:07] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In this week's episode, I welcome Rachel Moore! Rachel is a licensed marriage and family therapist, specializing in psycotherapy for the creative community of writers, artists, and musicians. As a prolific artist herself--having trained in piano, voice, improv, writing, acting, photography, and more--Rachel brings a unique perspective to her therapy practice in a way that authentically connects with artists. Her episode is full of great stories and sage advice. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is one of Rachel's photos!)   Get in touch with Rachel Moore: https://www.rachelmoorecounseling.com/ Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 70 - Rachel Moore [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Rachel Moore. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist based in San Diego and she works primarily with creative people and artists, which is most of us. So I'm so, so excited that you're here, Rachel, and so excited to chat with you. Thank you for being here too. [00:02:38] Rachel Moore: Thanks so much, Lindsey, I'm really excited about it too. I can't wait to just chat with you about fun, artsy things. [00:02:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Right? It's my favorite. All right. Yeah. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit, maybe about your background, kind of what got you interested in art and then of course, a little bit about what you're up to these days. [00:03:00] Rachel Moore: You bet. Gosh. Yeah. So actually my first intro into the creative world was through music. And so when I was seven, I started taking piano lessons, really liked it, did not like practicing, but that's another thing. And did piano from seven to 14, started playing a saxophone and in, in middle school and then went into high school and continued with that and jazz band and stuff. And then also started playing auxiliary percussion in marching band and met some really great friends there. So lots and lots and lots of music, instrumental music. And meanwhile, I forgot this other track this whole time. I was always a writer. Pretty much been writing since I was like five and I made my first little book or whatever. So writing and music, sort of the more performative arts, have always been something I've been interested in and good at. [00:03:53] I not a great drawer. I tried my best, but this art isn't quite what I do with it. So, you know slap something together. But yeah, for me, music and writing and I actually, my first career was as a newspaper copy editor. So when I was in college, I got a degree in creative writing focused mainly on poetry. And I think it's kind of cool actually that I then went on to a 14 year career in newspapers where I would do editing. I would do design of the news pages. And I also importantly, would write headlines, which required the skills of finding the best words and also looking at line breaks, right? And if you're writing a headline. So that was going on. And then in the meantime, I, I finally went into singing when I was like 30. I lived in LA, I went to this great community college program. They had an applied music program. I was still working and also doing this program where I got private lessons, singing lessons for the first time. And really it was able to kind of develop my voice and learn a lot of technique that was just super helpful. And so that's been really fun. [00:04:57] And so that's kind of all of the basis of the, the fun, creative stuff I like to do. Then when I was about 35, 36, I decided to become a therapist, went back to school, got my master's degree. All that had to do 3000 hours of supervised internship before I could get licensed. And meanwhile, thinking to myself like, well, who am I going? Who are my clients going to be? You know, what, what am I going to focus on? Who am I going to serve? When actually it was kind of right in front of me the whole time, which is people like me, people who were into art. And I can talk more about kind of what that's like from my perspective as a therapist and why I think that's important, but that's, that's kind of the, the quick and dirty version of my life. There you go. [00:05:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Oh my goodness. I love it. So many questions based off of that. I love it, but, but let's, yeah, I would love to hear more about what you just talked about with your practice and working with creatives and things like that. I would love to hear more about that whole thing and how that became your focus as opposed to, I mean, therapists are needed all the time. So I'm just curious how that kind of became your, your niche. [00:06:07] Rachel Moore: Sure. Yeah. I actually had a particular therapy experience with my own therapist when I was trying to explain to her that I went to a friend's house and I sat down at her digital piano. And, you know, I live in San Diego. It's kind of hard to like haul pianos around. I don't really have a lot of access to pianos. With that piano, the piano was my first instrument and it really means a lot to me. And so explaining to my therapist, how I sat down with this digital piano. And I had no idea that they, they've improved them so much now that they really do feel a lot like a piano when you sit at it. And I felt like I was playing a piano and, and what that meant to me, you know, how it felt in my body and how it felt emotionally and, and all this stuff. And my therapist, like, it's, you know, she didn't do anything wrong. There's nothing wrong with her, but she was just kinda like, oh, okay. Like she just didn't get it. You know? [00:06:59] I thought, wow, wouldn't it be cool to just off the bat, be able to have that connection with my clients where I understand, generally speaking-- you know, it's different for everybody, but I understand that for them, art may be like a life or death type thing. Art may be the reason that they are alive and, and the most important thing in their life. I just thought it would be cool to be that type of therapist who could serve people like that. And, you know, the most practical thought there is that it just saves a lot of time. You know, I'm like, okay. Yeah, I get it. Great. You know, I don't have to, they don't have to explain it to me on a deeper level. I think it's just cool to be able to be a person who gets it on some level and when it comes to being a creative. [00:07:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree. And I can even just hearing you tell that story, I can definitely relate to, you know, it, it's totally fine when you, when you're talking to people who don't have the same experiences and, you know, and being able to share like, well, this art means this to me because, and you can sort of explain it, but until you have experienced it yourself, it's just not the same. So I can totally see that. So, and I'm curious too, do you find, or have you found that-- I'm trying to figure out how to word this exactly-- that I guess, like I've said, I, I'm a firm believer in therapy, but I think that I'm just curious, how has it been to attract creatives to your practice? Is it, is it helpful because you're also an artist and that's sort of, again, how they've connected with you? Because I still feel like there's a little bit of stigma, even in the art world of like, "oh, you know, I can't, I can't do that because you know that that's not for me," I guess. [00:08:46] Rachel Moore: Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think that, you know, when it comes to, you know, by the time people are finding me, they know they want to go to therapy, I guess, really, you know? And so it's like, well, who, who do I want to see? I mean, I've had, you know, prospective clients say to me, oh, I saw immediately, for example, that you work with writers and I'm a writer. So I want to work with you. Like, because you just-- I'm shocked actually that I don't see more people working with people in the arts. I mean, maybe they are, and I just don't know where to find them or I'm not looking in the right places. I don't know. But like, I think it's really, and it's, you know, you talk about the stigma, even as I say that out loud, I'm like, am I saying like, artists need more help? It's, it's not so much even that it's just that I think that again, like, and I wish I had better ways to explain it too, but there's something about, you know, somebody who again has that, has that experience with art really gets on a deep level. [00:09:46] I mean, even, I was just thinking also in a practical ways, like, I know what it's like to have stage fright. Like literally I have it all the time because I'm performing a lot or I used to, you know, before the pandemic and, and yeah, there, there's, there's a connection there that I think is, can be really important and really vital in the relationship with my clients. And I will say that it's been, you know, there've been studies showing that the relationship between the therapist and the client is actually the healing part of therapy, which I think is pretty cool, like, or the most healing part. There's other things that are important too, but the relationship and the rapport is the most important part. [00:10:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I can personally relate to that. I absolutely agree. And I think, you having that experience like you, like you were saying, even just the stage fright element. It's huge. So being able to also affirm the way that somebody is feeling, you know, and, and acknowledge the fact just also, you know, how much hard work goes into it. And I feel like there's a lot of misunderstanding about the art, about artists. And I joke about it a lot because people will say to me, "oh, you know, you have such a glamorous job." I'm a professional dancer and I'm like, "well, ninety of the time, not glamorous at all, you know?" [00:10:59] Rachel Moore: Yup. Most of the time, like I was just thinking about it today. I don't, I don't know if I mentioned to you before, but I'm actually been doing an "improv for therapists" class online. I've been participating in that as it as a an improv and it's been so fun, but today we did our dress rehearsal for our show and it reminded me how, you know, oh, I'm like, oh yeah --most of the time in a production, you're just sitting around like waiting. Right. So true. Preparing something. I know I'm just like, okay, all right. This week, not really glamorous. No. [00:11:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. It's all those long days in the theater where you're just like, oh my gosh, how is it midnight? And we're not done. But I think it's just nice to have somebody to be able to talk to, somebody who, who totally gets it, like on a fundamental level. You've been there. You've done that. I love that. I think that's super cool. [00:11:49] Rachel Moore: Well, that's great. Cause that's what I'm going for. Yeah. [00:11:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I just love that. So, you know, you had mentioned starting to sing, you know, a little bit late, well having voice lessons, I'm sure you were singing here your whole life, but having voice lessons and really pursuing it as an adult. And I'm super interested in that. Was that kind of a leap of faith? And I asked partly because like is always been this like thing in the back of my mind, "oh, someday I'll go take voice lessons," but I haven't because I'm like, "oh my gosh. That's so nerve wracking." Tell me about your experience. [00:12:22] Rachel Moore: Okay. Yeah. Well, a friend of mine at the newspaper I was working at told me that he was in this program and how fun it was and, and he's also the person who introduced me to yoga. So I knew that he's like, he's got some good stuff going on. So I was like, "okay, I'll check it out." And the first time I ever performed in my group class, my hands were shaking so hard. I was up on the little stage in the classroom and I could not stop them, just shaking, shaking, shaking. And I'm like, okay, I guess that's what we're doing here. I'm happy to say that it got better, but yeah, it is, it can be scary. I think that the coolest part of that experience was that I learned a lot of technique that I had no idea about and actually made singing easier and made it easier for me to perform in a way where I felt confident. And, and, and even made it easier like on my body. Cause you know, when you're singing, just like when you're dancing, your body is the instrument. So to find a technique that, you know, I know how to sing really loud without hurting my voice, stuff like that, you know, was really cool. [00:13:22] And I will say I had a really interesting experience when I was kind of wrapping up my, my time with that. And I will admit to you-- to admit, I know there's an interesting word. My therapist brain just caught that. I stopped pursuing it because I didn't want to do it as a career. And my, my teacher at the time was encouraging me to continue and I didn't want to have the life of a singer, whatever I imagined that would be. And I have never gotten paid for singing, and I don't want to get paid for singing. It's too close to me as a human. I don't know how to explain it, but I had this experience where I was working on an aria from "Samson and Delilah" and the mezzo soprano. And I was, I was working on this aria for, for like a few months you know, really, really working really hard, like you said, because that's what we do as artists. We work really hard and finally sang it for my teacher and I, she was on the piano accompanying me. And I'm just getting chills thinking about it right now. Cause we got to the end of the aria. I got to the end and she looked at me and she said, "you could sing that on any stage in the world." And I looked at her and said and said, "I know." [00:14:40] And you know, what's so funny about that. I was, I was done. I was good. I didn't have to-- I was like, "okay, I've, I've done it. I've reached my potential and now go try something else." It was really cool. [00:14:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Surreal! What a moment! And I just, you know, and I actually think that is so important too, because I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't, who would discount being an artist on some level, because they don't make money off of it, or they-- that's not for other people, it's for themselves. And that doesn't discount anything. I mean, it's, it's okay. Like if that's not what you want to pursue, then that's fine. You know, so even having that perspective too. Yeah, I think there's a lot of discreditation that happens with... [00:15:27] Rachel Moore: I think you're right. Like, there's that word? And I, I don't know that I pronounce it right. But dilettante, I think is the word, like, you know, it's sort of a derogatory word saying like, oh, you're just a person who dabbles in things. And you know, I've tried to really embrace that. And I'm like, yeah, I do, because I, I have one life and I want to do a lot of stuff. I want to do a lot of different stuff. I want to do a lot of different art now. And I mean, I've had two different careers, you know, so I don't know. I mean, I, that's not to say on the other hand too, I really do admire people who dedicate their lives to one form of art and, and perfect it in, you know, in the ways that they do. And that's what they want to do. That's great too. I, you know, I think you're right. That it's like, it's different for everybody. And it doesn't, we don't have to discredit people just because they're not like an expert. That's a very, Hmm. It makes me wonder, you know, it's just kind of a very Western, so to speak, way of looking at things, you know, just like it's a little patriarchal, to be honest with you, just like, well, if you're going to do this, you better get paid for it. That type of thing. [00:16:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. No, I agree. Yeah. And, and I do love that perspective and yeah. Well, thank you for sharing about that experience. It was actually really encouraging. [00:16:33] Rachel Moore: Oh good. [00:16:33] Lindsey Dinneen: I was like, maybe I could do it, and my hands could be shaking the whole time, but I still tried. [00:16:39] Rachel Moore: Yes. Well, that's the thing. The more you do it, just like it's true, you know, the more you do it, the more confident you get, the less your body rebels and thinks you're going to die. So it'll be, it'll be fine. Yes. [00:16:49] Lindsey Dinneen: It's so funny too, because it depends on the performance that for myself, even when I go out into stage and I've been doing this for years, I'm a very confident performer. I love it, but I'll go out on stage for that first like opening thing. And I'm like, what? My legs are jelly now. Like... [00:17:07] Rachel Moore: Yeah. That adrenaline always gets you, right? Yeah. The adrenaline rush right at the beginning. Right. Like, okay. Then we settle in. Yeah. [00:17:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yup. Oh man. Oh, that's fantastic. Okay. And you kind of briefly mentioned this improv project that you're a part of. So first of all, I love the concept --improv for therapists or therapists improving or whatever. That's super fun, but yeah, tell me a little bit about, oh my gosh. How did you get into improv? [00:17:35] Rachel Moore: Well, I actually got into improv in the real world. I don't know how to, we're talking about it these days, but before the pandemic-- oh, I actually got into it through music because I had always been wanting to try improv. I thought it'd probably be okay at it and have fun with it. But it always kind of felt really intimate. And so the first improv class I took in person was musical improv. And it's great. You just go on stage and you make up songs and you sing and it's awesome. I don't know how awesome it might feel for you at this point. But for me it was like, right, if you told me to get up and dance, I don't know how I do-- but the singing, I was like, yeah, I can do this. And it was so fascinating to me because I can tell when I'm doing musical improv or like regular talking improv, I can honestly like literally feel the different parts of my brain being activated. [00:18:22] And for some reason, for me, it's a lot easier to make up stuff as I'm singing than to make up stuff as I'm talking. It must be just literally different parts of the brain. So anyway, that's how I got into it was through musical improv. And then I decided to take like the whole series of improv classes locally here. We had a a show a December 2019. And that was just like the most fun thing ever. And yeah, and then later I think on a Facebook ad or something, I, I found this improv for therapists group. It's actually run by some folks out of Second City in Chicago. One of the cool things about the pandemic is now we can do things on Zoom and have a lot more access that way. And so it's a zoom class and it's been really fun. [00:19:04] Lindsey Dinneen: That sounds like so much fun. I love that you're doing that. Yeah. Well, and you know, your background has been so diverse and I just love the fact that you are not stopping. Like you said, you have one life, but you're, you're choosing to dabble in a lot of different things, I think. Yeah. So much value to that. You're, you're constantly learning and growing and, and just, I know it's funny to say this as an outsider, but I just keep thinking like, "oh man, kudos to you for just continuing to like push yourself." Cause it's easy to get comfortable, you know? [00:19:35] Rachel Moore: No, I don't know what that feels like. I don't know. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Like, yeah. I, I can't imagine what it would be like to stop creating and performing. And I mean, I don't know about you. Like, it's just where, Hmm. How do I put this? Like, this is where I feel like life is. That's where I find that, you know, life, spirit or whatever you want to call it. There's probably so many words for it, but you know, to me, that's what life is about. I remember watching this documentary on a plane randomly, but I'm watching this documentary about-- oh my gosh. Her name is escaping me. " Take a Little Piece of My Heart." That singer. What's her name? [00:20:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh no. Oh man. You're asking the wrong person. Everyone knows that song. And I'm like, probably! I have no idea. [00:20:22] Rachel Moore: I'm refraining, I'm refraining from breaking out. It's a song, but I will not do that right now. There was this documentary about her and she was a very troubled person. And one of those people who died at 27, like in the sixties, you know, there's like a lot of people who died of overdoses and things like that. I can't remember exactly how she died and I can't remember her name. Anyway, I'm watching it. The important part is I'm watching this documentary and they said, yeah, the, the trouble, the trouble she had in her life was that when she was on stage, she thought that was, you know, the real life in the real world. And I remember sitting there, oh, it's not. I was like, oh no. I didn't realize that stage was not like the actual real world and everything else was something else in between times you're onstage. But anyway, that's kind of how I see life sometimes. [00:21:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I love it. When you, when you said that line, something about, yeah, life, life is not unsafe, but I'm like, but it is. [00:21:14] Rachel Moore: I felt so strange. Cause they were like, you know, for her, for this person, this analysis was saying like, "oh, well she got so many accolades and people loving her" and I could see how, you know, it might be a problem in life if you're not understanding the difference between like people liking your art, as opposed to people responding to you as a human. I mean, you know, that's something that can get a little weird. I think sometimes for us creative folks too, having that healthy separation. But, but yeah, but just that general idea of life, real life is onstage. I'm like, "ah, I don't think I, I don't think that's true for me." Nope. [00:21:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Nope. I would agree with you. And I definitely resonate too with, with what you were talking about of like, yeah. I don't, I, I can't relate to the idea of not continuing to learn and grow and try new things. Yeah. Literally somebody the other day in social media was talking about being bored. And I was like, man, I have no concept of bored. Like I don't remember being bored since I was maybe five. You know, I just there's so much to explore. There's so much to learn. How can you be bored? [00:22:19] Rachel Moore: I know. Sometimes I think it's so funny, and it's funny to me because I don't think it's true and I don't think it'll happen, but my husband will say like, "what if we run out of things to talk about?" and I'm like, "what are you talking about? Like, do you know how many things there are in the world that we could talk about?" [00:22:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. I love that. Yeah. Well, I know a few specific stories had kind of come to mind when you were contemplating how art has impacted you and I'd love if you wouldn't mind sharing some of those? [00:22:50] Rachel Moore: You bet. Yeah. I mean, I did have on my list singing my art, that aria, for my teachers and other performance things, which maybe we'll have time for, maybe not. But I think there were a couple of things that like, yeah, I really wanted to, to talk about, and I guess talking about visual art, like I remember the first time I got to go to a real art museum. So I grew up in Idaho and when I was growing up, like especially then, you know, now there's more stuff there to do, but when I was growing up, one of the bummer things was, you know, nobody would come to our town to perform. Like no big names or anything like that. That wasn't even a thing. And like the closest city to us was Salt Lake City, which is five hours away. [00:23:30] So it's like, I didn't have access to a lot of, you know, First-class high quality art or whatever. That was the bummer part. The good part was that, that meant that kind of like we're talking about like, my friends, my siblings, like we would make stuff ourselves. You know, we were, I would, they just encouraged me to like, make my own little videos and shows and stuff. So that was cool. The first time that I went to a real art museum, I had a layover in Chicago and I had time to hang out with a friend. That was in 1995. And we went to the Art Institute and I saw paintings who I love and I, and I saw like, like all these people and that's actually reminded me of another memory that I hadn't written down, but I thought about. So I told you I studied poetry in school and creative writing and stuff. A few years after this, I went to London and I went to Westminster Abbey and, you know, saw the people buried there. [00:24:22] And then, you know, Geoffrey Chaucer, I think is buried there, but then they also have memorials to like Shakespeare and Keats and Shelley. And I was just in tears, like realizing that these people actually existed. You know, I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, it's real. You know, the, they did live, you know, these, these things that they created, like are from actual people. And here's the proof, I don't know. It just hit me. Yeah. Like I said, it was just crying and happy. And so anyway, that's just a couple of little stories yet. [00:24:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I love that. I've also been to Westminster Abbey and it is a very surreal experience when you're, you're reading these names and you go, oh, my word, like it is, it's like a transformative experience. You're like, there's hundreds of, thousands of years of history, like here, right here. It's the most crazy experience. I relate to that. Yeah. Those stories are powerful. And you know, I'm also curious and obviously you don't have to be specific at all, but I'm wondering if you've experienced-- I'm sure you have some really like interesting breakthrough moments from some of your clients that you've worked with, where it was sort of like, "oh wow. I needed that today." You know? [00:25:41] Rachel Moore: Yeah. You know, I think I actually, this kind of ties into what we were talking about earlier about, you know, maybe being a dabbler in different things or, you know, or do you have to be an expert or blah, blah, blah. I have had with a couple of clients who have, have come in and they've told me, like, I need to do this particular, you know, I need to reach this particular artistic pinnacle. And if I don't, it means I'm not an artist. And I remember, you know, early on when I say things to them, like, you know, if self-expression is something that's important to you. If, if that's, you know, what you are really going for here? Which, which it sounds like it is as opposed to sort of the ego idea, right, of being a, a whatever artist. I said, you know what, there's lots and lots of different ways that you can do that. That means that look nothing like that. You know, maybe, I don't know. I'm just going to throw this out there. Like, you know, being a symphony musician for, you know, for example, some that you may even like better. And when I, when I say that early on to some of my clients, they just look at me like, so pitifully, like I have no idea. [00:26:43] And then eventually, sometimes there'll be like, "Oh, yeah. Okay. Maybe I can do my own thing and create my own artistic life and do the things that I want to do that really speak to me that maybe other people may look at and say like, oh, that's not real art or, oh, that's, you know, I don't see that as legitimate." It's like, you know, "Hey, in my opinion, I'm like, who cares about them? This is not about them. This is about you and your life and what again, what you want to do with your one life." Right? So yeah, that's always an interesting experience. I just love it. You know, with, I know what they're thinking. They're like, "oh, poor Rachel. She just has no idea what it's really like," which that may be also be true. I wouldn't say that's not true, but yeah, it's, it's always a good discussion at least. [00:27:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. I'm so glad that you bring that into your practice because I think there's-- that something that I've talked about a lot with my students, because I also teach is, you know, sometimes they'll come to me and yeah, "I have this starry-eyed vision of like, oh, I just want to dance with X company or whatever." And you know, a lot of times I talk about how there are a lot of avenues to your dreams, to reaching your dreams. [00:27:57] Rachel Moore: Oh, I like how you say that. Like I'm gonna borrow that. [00:28:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Cause there's not one straight path. And even if you would like there to be, it just doesn't exist. So I think that having the idea in your mind of, there are lots of ways to accomplish your dreams if you're open to different opportunities, because, you know, if you're so stuck on one avenue, you're going to miss all the different spikes out that that are all of these other options too. So I love that you do that because I think that's just so important. I mean, I'm maybe not exactly exhibit A, but I have to say that, like, you know, I had the privilege of getting to dance for other companies, but it wasn't really until I branched out and started my own, that I finally was fulfilled. And that's a very risky thing to do in the dance world, just because it's like starting something from scratch, and nobody knows who I am and why should they come to see my shows and all that? And it's a lot of hard work, but oh my gosh, I've never felt more fulfilled, you know? And, and so sometimes just being open to like a different avenue, you know. [00:29:08] Rachel Moore: That's being creative, right? You know what I mean? Yeah. That's the spirit of the soul of creativity right there. Right. It's like, oh, maybe I don't have to do it like everybody else does. Or like people say I have to. [00:29:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Exactly. And I just love that. Yeah. So I'm curious, I'm sure you have a lot of, well, I'm totally extrapolating so let me start over. I imagine that you have people that come to you who are maybe more in the beginning stages of their careers. And, and what advice would you have for somebody who's either kind of trying to make this happen? And it's like super nervous or whatever, or maybe they're at a point, maybe they're at a turning point in their career or they're ready to do something else. I mean, what kind of advice do you have for people who are kind of on that path. [00:30:03] Rachel Moore: Hm. Wow. You know, I'm not sure. And this, this actually might kind of open up another can of worms, which is to talk about kind of the type of therapy that I do. Because it's true that I work with therapists. A lot of people think I'm an art therapist by the way, which I'm not that's a whole nother thing, but I actually do a type of therapy called EMDR, which is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, which is such a mouthful. But honestly what I, what I would actually do is we would start a treatment plan on that issue. So I would ask like, "okay, what's the issue you want to work with, work on? Tell me more about it." They would explain to me like, like you're saying, you know, like maybe like, "I'm not sure what I want to do. Do I want to keep pursuing this? I've got this and this issue, you know, about it." And then we would look at maybe some memories, some past history that might be affecting how they feel right now. We would talk about some present triggers that are affecting them. And then we would talk about how they want to deal with it in the future. [00:31:00] So I've just kind of given you like a little brief summary of what EMDR is like, but the idea of EMDR-- we may have traumas in the past that are affecting us now. And what happens with trauma is that it just doesn't get processed in our brain. So, I mean, I have some early artistic traumas. One of them, you know, caused me to not write a song for like 30 years after it happened. You know, I wrote a song when I was eight, got this great response from my family and then wrote another song and they kind of ignored it and said they didn't like it as much. And that caused me to not write again for like 25, 30 years. That for example, would be a good memory for me to try to reprocess. And I can tell you about what that reprocessing is like, if you want to know, but that's a whole nother thing. [00:31:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah! [00:31:45] Rachel Moore: But. Well, yeah, well, okay. So here's the idea is that they think that they're not sure why EMDR works, but they think that perhaps when we're sleeping and our eyes are moving back and forth in REM sleep, that that is actually the brain processing memories, you know? So like, oh, let's see. I had a sandwich for lunch today. I think I can put that long-term storage. We won't need to grab that anytime soon, you know, that type. But when there's trauma, like, oh, I had a sandwich for lunch today and like it had a cockroach in it or something, if there was a lot of trauma around that, what can happen is that that memory will just kind of be floating around and not really have a place to land and not be processed. And then later you might find you get triggered and it's almost like you're back in that old memory and you can see, hear, feel, see the things as if it's happening right now. That's kind of the way that trauma works in our minds and our bodies. [00:32:35] And so we literally will, you know, sort of bring it, the memory and then literally do eye movements. And so I've been doing this online, but you could do it in the office too, you know, kind of with different ways to have people move their eyes back and forth to reprocess that memory. And then I'll ask them, "okay, what do you notice?" They'll tell me. I say, "okay, go with that." So we reprocess, we bring down-- that's the desensitization or part, we bring down the distress of that memory so that they can just think of it like any other memory. You don't forget it, but you're not totally freaked out about it anymore. And then the next part is like, they may have some negative connotations that come with that memory. [00:33:12] So like, you know, "I'm not good enough or I'm unsafe," things like that. We work with that, reprocess that, do the eye movements with like a more true statement, like "I'm safe now," or, you know, "I'm, I am a good person." And then the last part, which you may like this part too, being a dancer, the last part is that we pay attention to the body. So I'll ask, "okay. When you think of this memory and maybe the words, I'm a good person, where do you feel in your body?" They'll tell me, "well, I feel some tightness in my throat or my chest," something like that. And then we'll do eye movements on that. Reprocess that until the body is clear. And then we move on to the next memory. [00:33:49] So once we're done with the memories, again, you know, we talk about present situations and then we talk about how you want to deal with it in the future. So in this case, dealing with it in the future, it might be like, "okay, how do you want to approach your next your next audition," for example, and "let's talk about the positive belief you want to have about yourself in that moment." And then we work through that. So that's kind of what it's like, that's what I do. [00:34:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Well, and that's the perfect segue because I know that you are fully booked. You are obviously a very effective therapist, which is fantastic. But I know that you are now kind of in the process of creating sort of an online opportunity. So I would love if you would tell us more about that. [00:34:33] Rachel Moore: Sure. Sure. Thanks for asking. Yeah. I have done for like 10 or 12 years groups based on the book, "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron. We just go through like each chapter. There's 12 chapters, so it would take 12 weeks and go through each chapter. Up to this point, all the groups have been in person. Now, you know, after the pandemic or during, or wherever we are when we're recording this, I feel ready to do a program or workshop, 12 week workshop based on "The Artist's Way" online, feel comfortable enough in that venue now to do that. So I'm super excited about it and it's always, it's honestly, like one of my very favorite things to do in life is to run these. [00:35:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. And where could we maybe find out about that or, or connect with you so that when it is live, we could jump on board with that? [00:35:19] Rachel Moore: Sure. You can go to my website at rachelmoorecounseling.com. And there is the, you'll find a link to "The Artist's Way" group. You'll also find a button where you could set up a time to chat with me and I'll talk with anybody, you know, about it. We'll do a free 15 minute chat about whatever I can help you with. So if you've got questions about "The Artist's Way" group, if you need to find a therapist in California to work with, I love helping people with referrals because it can be really hard to find a therapist for various reasons. So I'm super happy to help out. [00:35:49] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. Thank you. And then I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that. [00:35:56] Rachel Moore: Ah, yeah. Sounds great. [00:35:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:36:04] Rachel Moore: Oh, that's a great question. Wow. The first thing that comes into my mind for what it's worth is, is, is actually my friend's definition of music. And she says that in order for something to be music, it has to have a rhythm. And I, yeah, I kind of feel like I could apply that to almost all art forms, right? Like I like to do a lot of photography too, you know, just, just like in, you know, amateur photography, whatever. But I like to find like, okay, what's in the front of this photo, what's in the back? What are the patterns of this flower that I'm taking a picture of? Right? Like what's the rhythm of this. There's something in there and I could probably write or talk more about this at some point, but there's something in there about the rhythm of music or visual art or dance or writing, especially I definitely, I, when I was a newspaper copy editor, I always have to check myself because I tended to like the headlines that sounded the best rather than maybe were the best written. So I'm like, okay, wait, it has to be accurate too, not just sound great. So yeah, something about that, that the rhythm and the sound. Yeah. That's the best I can do for an answer to that question. [00:37:14] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:37:21] Rachel Moore: I know it's kind of a, that's been kind of a weird idea lately --the truth, but I think to shine a light on things that maybe for various reasons, society or people have said, you know, we can't look at this to shine a light in a way that is accessible. I think that if we just like, you know, shove things in people's faces like, eh, that's not really doing the job of art in my opinion. To invite people to see things differently, that's what I think the role of an artist. [00:37:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left solely up to the viewer to determine what they will. [00:38:22] Rachel Moore: Right. So I used to be a journalist. You might be able to guess where I would fall on this. I love learning about things. So for me personally, yeah, I think I'd have to go with inclusive because then I thought about this, of course just like every, I guess creative person does, you know, do we need to know the story, but like, I always want to know the story. I always want to know more about where it came from, what the context was, what it means. And I love how that can always change too. When we find out different things or we have different perspectives as a culture, like, yeah, I don't, I don't think that art ever exists in a vacuum nor do I think it should. So I'd have to land on inclusive for that, that answer. [00:39:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Very good. That makes sense. Yes. I guess I would have probably been surprised having talked to you if you went the other way, but yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, oh my goodness. Rachel, you are just so amazing and inspiring and I just really just want to commend the work that you do and not just for yourself. And you know, like I know even a lot of your art has been a little bit, maybe more for yourself, but you're just constantly-- I just love that you're kind of still learning and growing and you're still performing and you're doing all these cool things, but then you also have this practice and that is seriously helps other people. And obviously, you know, as an artist, I'm, I'm partial. So thank you for focusing on artists. I think that's just a gap in the market and I appreciate that. So thank you so much for what you bring to the world. I, I just want to say that I know you're making a difference and it's so obvious just even talking to you. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks for being here. [00:40:07] Rachel Moore: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Lindsey, for saying that. I really, really appreciate it. And it means a lot to me that, that you can see the value of having a therapist for artists, because I really think there is a lot of value in that. And thank you for doing this podcast, it's so much fun and I'm so glad that you're doing it and, and bringing artsy things into the world. It's great. Love it. [00:40:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Yes. Oh yeah. It's, it's my happy place. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. Please definitely check out Rachel's website and if you're so inclined, like she said, she offers these awesome 15 minute calls that you can take advantage of and really, you know, get some advice or learn more about this upcoming group that she's going to be hosting and jump on board with that too. Obviously, like I said, Rachel brings a lot of value and inspiration to the world. So definitely want to hop on with that. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:41:07] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:41:16] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In this week's episode, I welcome Natsune Oki! Hailing from Japan, Natsune is an author, speaker, and entreprenuer, who has reimagined herself and her career multiple times. Her unique perspective about creativity and art allow her to inspire others with a positive mindset coupled with business acumen. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is of Natsune and the book she wrote!)   Get in touch with Natsune Oki: https://www.lifeupeducationtv.com/ Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 69 - Natsune Oki [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of artfully told I'm your host Lindsay. And I am so excited to have as my guest today, Natsune Oki, who is an author, speaker and entrepreneur. And she actually is coming to us from Tokyo, which is awesome. I'm super excited to chat with you about art. Thank you so much for being here. [00:02:36] Natsune Oki: Hi, Lindsay, thank you so much for having me today. I'm also very excited as well. [00:02:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I know you have a super interesting background. I mean, obviously what you're up to nowadays is amazing. So of course I'd love to hear maybe how you got started and, and how it led to what you're doing now if you don't mind sharing. [00:02:59] Natsune Oki: Yes. My name is Natsune Oki. I, I was born and raised in Japan and so well, not Tokyo, but Japan and I decided to study abroad when I was 18. And then I went to the United States and I finished my business degree. Well, I would say I didn't finish my business degree, but basically I did like halfway on my college and I decided to work like getting work experience in America. And at that time, like my English was broken. I didn't even have a degree. I didn't have enough money, like nothing, but I just decided to just put myself out there, right? And then see what I go to get. And then very fortunately this time turned out to be one of the best time that I had in the States where I, I was able to work in like startup, entrepreneur- heavy like community. Because back then I lived in Seattle and Seattle was such like a hippie community for tech startups. [00:03:59] So during that time I was able to network with lots of entrepreneurs and investors who were working around technology and then who were really being in the possibility of with technology and expanding that possibility further. And I was really intrigued by it. I was really inspired by the vision that they had and that story kind of delays to later what I'm doing today, but I'm going to come back to it later. And then after that time kind of ended, I decided to go back to school to get my economics degree. And then I finished economic study and once again without like no plan, I didn't even have money or job lined up or anything, but I just decided to move to Florida and you know, without having anything really like no connection, no place to live, like it was really tough, but I just wanted something different. [00:04:57] So I moved and, yeah, some like really hard things happen because it was just really random, right? But I did it anyway and I was able to get like a consulting job. And then I worked as like a consultant, like digital marketer, marketer kind of role, the business agency. And then after that, I, after a while, I decided to come back to Japan for a little bit, because, there was opportunity with Olympics that was supposed to happen last year. So I came back and then I was still working with the same company, but then I always had this like tremendous interest in entrepreneurship. And I knew that I was going to have that like entrepreneurship experience at some point. And I think it was going to be actually, I was going to, I knew that I was going to be entrepreneur for like a very long time. I don't say I just needed to like time, like when that was going to happen. And that was the perfect timing. [00:05:56] So I decided to go like individually, like I just stopped the contract with the previous company and basically I'm doing what I was doing at my previous company. I do it like individually now. And that's how Foreign Connect to basically started. And I explain Foreign Connect as a business service that helps Japanese companies to expand their business launch and expand their businesses in America, and also Latin America because I have some connections in Florida. And Florida is like full of like, like Spanish speaking people. But basically that's what I do with Foreign Connect. And then I also have another very, very exciting media channel, which is the platform that I reached out to you from. It's called the LifeUp Education TV. And coming back to the earlier story, the reason I started that I started LifeUp Education TV is because I was really inspired by all of these tech entrepreneurs, their ambition toward like expanding the possibility of humanity. [00:07:02] And I mean, of course it's a business, so they do have this like money mentality and business mindset behind it. But I was more intrigued about it how they were so visionary and excited about the possibility of a technology, how that can make impacting people's lives more than like making money necessarily. That's why, like I made this tonight, the shift from studying business to economics, because economics, you have more space for broader thing than just money, but you know, it has consideration for economics. It has constellation for education, political science, and more things that has to do with people element of the society. So I, I made that size shift. And then, so today how that relates to like LifeUp Education TV. So like I said, I was really fascinated by how people were so excited about the future. [00:07:57] And when I think about future, I think of it as possibility and creativity, something that we haven't seen yet, right? And then in the same token, I guess in the opposite side of it is a past. There's a past. What is past? The past is what we already know what we already know as, for example, data, knowledge, or the history we already recorded it. And with having that, to being the opposite side of the spectrum, I believe that future is existing already inside of us. We tend to look at future as like external thing that we were searching for, right? Like the humanity is searching for the future, but I think vice versa. Like we already have the potential, we already contain the potential for the future. We just need to dig into it. And we just need to find the possibility and the future inside of us from our creativity we already have and what prevents us to do. So it's sometimes it's data and knowledge and experiences and the limits, so to speak. And how, because, you know, the limits tells us something is impossible, right? [00:09:16] Because, and then by the data we've already done it. It's impossible. Like that's the forest that we are against. So that's why, like, that is why I'm so excited about the future and really talking about pushing the limit. And when I talk about pushing the limit, I think like great connection between creativity has to do with like creativity and like art, our ability with like creating something from nothing, right? And I call that as a form of art. So this is why, like my channel LifeUp Education TV heavily promotes the idea that the potential that put the full potential of humanity really lays on our art capability. And that's what we like to talk about in this show is how can we unlock it? How can we stimulate it? How can we take the most advantage? [00:10:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That sounds amazing. Well, first of all, oh my goodness. So much of your story is so incredibly inspiring. I, I'm so impressed with you for coming, you know, all this way. And then starting kind of from scratch a couple of times just trying to, yeah, kind of discover what fits you, where you're meant to be kind of thing. And working with all these different people, I mean, kudos to you. That, that could not have been easy on any level. So I'm just really impressed with you for, for just being so brave and bold and going for your, your dreams and your goals. [00:10:50] Natsune Oki: Thank you so much. That is a very kind thing to say. Thank you so much. [00:10:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course, of course. [00:10:55] Natsune Oki: Yeah. I think one thing I learned that definitely helps me to go through this, you know, bold journey is because at the core I understand, like that's probably why the top of these and why I'm so like out there is because I know that fundamentally my success doesn't mean anything to anyone but for me, and the same token, like my failure doesn't mean anything to anyone as much as it does to me, you know? And when I start believing in that thought, when I started subscribing in the thought, like all the sudden I'm not so afraid of what people think about me. And I have the courage to try everything that just makes me happy and other than makes me look like I'm successful. And I figured everything out, you know? [00:11:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that perspective too, because that gives you so much more freedom to explore and try things and not, yeah, not worry about the outward facing appearance of anything. It's, it's for you. So I love that outlook. Oh my goodness. So yeah, so obviously, you know, you've gotten to do you-- well, you've gotten to because you've created these, these amazing opportunities for yourself-- but you've gotten to do some pretty amazing things. So I liked what you were talking about in that you feel like creativity is the future. I mean, that's what makes you excited is there's so much potential for the future when we allow ourselves to be creative. So I wonder if you don't mind elaborating a little bit about that and talking about how your platform allows people to, to explore their creativity. [00:12:41] Natsune Oki: And I think just like, just like arts themselves, what's so interesting about arts is that there's no one answer, you know, like arts are, is like so subjective. It's so different to one person to another, like what's valuable, it's so different. Like so absolute different people. And then I think it doesn't have to have only one fit it, like one size-fit-all kind of answer. But to me, what works for me or what, what speaks to me now, they're the loudest. And also the gift that I have is definitely and like the mindset, managing the mindset and also helping others to do that. So with my channel, we focus a lot on psychology. We focus a lot on like managing the mindset part, which really has to do a lot with emotion, which is once again, it's very subjective matter and we don't have to have like one size fits all answer to what is happiness, for example, right? [00:13:51] So we can discover different perspectives. And then we can encourage people to also explore different concepts with us. And then I'm hoping like that can lead it to some sort of realization that can like fertilize your creativity in your way. And that's something that I can't decide for the audience, you know? So I'm just creating everything of like what I think is helpful for people to have a good mindset, to have a good psychology for them to feel quote unquote motivated or I guess willing, willing to pursue whatever they want to pursue. And then the rest is up to them because I can't teach them how they should grow, but it's up to them, you know? So, yeah, that would be my answer is my way of contributing to that conversation is talking about mindset, which is something that speaks to me. The nowadays for me, like that's how I learn in terms of even creativity, but also that's the gift that I have for other people, like how I can contribute to others. So that's what I would say. [00:15:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And I love that because I think you're absolutely right. The mindset. I mean, you can, in theory, be as creative as you wanted to, but if you don't have the right mindset, it's just so much harder to, to, to really be successful in the long term. And, and like you mentioned, you mean success kind of looks different to different people as it should, but, but even just to maintain a low level of creativity, yeah, having, having your mind in a good, healthy place is definitely a big, big component of that. So, yeah. I love that. [00:15:41] Natsune Oki: I, I think when I look at, I guess, creativity or like creating something from nothing. That's something that I'm good at. And that's something as an industry wise that I have been involved with, with my business posts also with my experiences, like a lot of those businesses have been startups, like starting from scratch is my spirituality. And when it comes to that, I think there's no much difference between like creating art, to like creating a new business for instance, or creating a new venture. And creating something from nothing is very exciting, but at the same time, it takes tremendous amount of like a mental management, like a mental focus. Because things happen that disappoint you. And I'm not talking about like creating one piece of art, but for instance, like if you're artist, maybe you are in the stump of like, you can't come up with some creative idea, you're feeling down, like you're even doubting yourself as an artist. What can you do? I think it really comes down to managing your mind, to bring yourself to like never give up during those times. And that's kind of how I see, see it when it comes to creating something from nothing. Because it's not going to be like easy all the time, you know, like whatever you're working on, whether that's art, whether that's like starting a business from nothing, or really like just creating a family, like starting from nothing, I'm talking about, I think it takes mental strengths and that's, that's something that I'm good at talking about. So that's how I contribute. [00:17:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. I love that a lot. And I know that you have also written a book and I would love to hear about the book. Yeah. And also just sort of your journey to create that, because I know that that's a really big undertaking and, and another kind of step in the creative direction. So yeah, I'd love to hear about that. [00:17:49] Natsune Oki: Yeah. So it started from me being a business. Mine is how the book started. Like I never really thought like one day I'm going to be an author. Like I didn't plan for it. I just thought what made sense was like, I, I little bit earlier, I said, you know, I have the humility to not assume how I can impact other people's life because that's like up to them. And then, you know, even if I have my mission and I have my hope or the romance of how my channels should have speak to others, at the end of the day, I can't control what people think of it, or I can't control what people think of my art or I can't, right? So the same way I, I have the humility to understand that the judger is my audience. And when I have that mindset behind how I create LifeUp Education TV, the practicality understanding of how I should my marketing, it just made sense for me that I have a many, as many outlets as I can because some people learn the different contents through video, but some people also like to learn it from through readings. [00:19:10] Some people also like to learn it from audio listening, like how we are doing today. So in terms of like, why I may come up with the idea of big was mostly because of the strategy, but I'll also, I wanted to write it because I shared my method that I had, that I talked about in my book to my friends. And yeah ,they implemented it and they really liked it. And I never really talk about the method, like the method part that I talk about in my book seems to be very, very interesting to many readers that read my book, but that, that wasn't like something that I pushed with my marketing, for example, like that, wasn't the main point that I wanted to push. It just happened and a lot of people liked it, but basically that really the main, main point that I want to with a book is really the message I'm pushing with LifeUp Education TV to be with, just to tell people like it, it can be scary, but you know, as long as you manage your mind, you can literally achieve anything, right? I mean, it sounds kind of not allowed to talk right here, but I talk about it in a perspective of like how one person, how someone can create mental transformation in three different phases in my book. [00:20:27] So in this book, I talk about phases, as I mentioned. How can you make that mental transformation? The first phase I talk about. Commitment. The first phase is all about building up emotion. So in this space you don't need anything logical, like, because when you think everything logical, you will never try anything. So in this phase, I really want you to focus on finding what it is that gives you the burning desire. Like something that really excites you. And then I give you a different questions to consider and then really understand what it is. And then one full meter that I talk about in this chapter is you have to have two things. One is inspiration, like something that you are so excited about once again, and then you also need to have desperation. What does that mean? That this desperation in essence, that you have to be sick of whatever you are right now. Like you have to have organized that frustration you have for the fact that you're not achieving something that you truly wanted to, and then you need to organize it and then you need for, for you to come to the commitment phase, you have to have inspiration that's exceeding that inspiration because if the inspiration is bigger than the inspiration, you don't feel like, like, if you don't believe that whatever you are dreaming of right now is possible to achieve, you're not going to try it, right? So that's the first phase I talk about. This is a very short description. [00:22:04] And then in the second phase, I talk about perseverance and more specifically, I also talk about, I call it identity circle, but what it is is really talk of, talk of self-awareness. Like, what do you really want? Like we talked about what you want to achieve in a first chapter, but now let's face it with some logical thinking. Like let's, let's change our perspective. In the first phase, we inspire you to think of the leavers that you're getting from the dream, whatever you created. But in a second phase with the logical thinking, now I'm going to say to change the perspective and ask you, you're not really working toward the new world that you thought about in the first phase, but in reality, you're working for those journey. Like you're working for that you had to go through for you to get to wherever you are. So think about all the possible failures you're going to have. And can you have like going through that failure, like let's align who you are, what you want with like what you want to achieve. So we really dig deep into like, identity of like what you think you want and if who you are sort of going through different questions. [00:23:24] And you also talk about how to manage our mind when we go through hardships, rejections, because things like that happen. And then finally, on the third phase, we speak about what is happiness and what is success? And because in the second we talked about the most important thing, which is let's need to find failure. So regardless of the hardships and rejections, you might go through like, here's how you think of them, right? So that I can keep track of like, you know, it doesn't matter. Like even if these things happen, like it doesn't matter, I'm going to do my thing and I can keep going. Like, that's, that's my goal of like how I want your mind to be. But because I want this whole journey to be like really thoughtful and reading like a deep journey that I guess I, I want people to think about what they want, and then what they want in their life in a very, very deep sense. In the third phase, we talk about the definition of success and happiness this time. Because we already done that for the failures. [00:24:29] And actually this is what a lot of people miss and a lot of people, a lot of people by that, I mean like a lot of books also, we don't talk much about the definition of happiness and success, but in, in reality, this is very important topic that no one, like people often forget to talk about. And we just assume that this is something that, that's common among many people, and we don't really have. We don't really take the time to think about them in a customized manner to what feels right for us to each one of us, right? And it can be completely different answer to person to person. So in a third phase, we really talk about it and that basically summarize the whole bit. [00:25:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I, I really love what your book addresses, because I think it's so important. I love the way that you were describing it. I definitely want to read it because, you know, just like you were talking about going through those three stages and they're each so important and how mindset is kind of woven through each and deciding what success is, deciding what happiness is for you. I think that's such a key component that a lot times is overlooked ' cause we're so eager to sort of define it by other people's standards. So yeah, I love, I love the way that you're going about all of that encouraging creative people to, to be creative and to, to be brave and to go for it. But, but that, you're also giving them that framework. And like you were talking about with the second section, you know, like you said, disappointments that are going to happen, failures are going to happen. So how do you deal with that. And I, I think that that is so great because it sounds so practical. That's very cool. Well, so I know, again, that sort of, that creativity has always been kind of a part of your life. Is there, are there particular art forms that you practice regularly now? I mean, what you're doing is an art form too. I mean, speaking, writing, but also, are there other things that you also like to do yourself? [00:26:37] Natsune Oki: Yeah. Actually everything I do is kind of creative because even Foreign Connect, my services more marketing and it has a lot of art elements to it. And with that, I LifeUp Education TV, obviously, like you said, like it's a speaking and that's a form of art. I like to speak and recently I started doing this thing called NFT. So I decided to talk, I decided to build some media around it as well, as well as publishing some arts myself. And I also like in LifeUp EducationTV, really the purpose of it is I want to talk about culture, arts, marketing, business. So a little bit of business side, like practical, like a business insight, but I definitely heavily, heavily like interested in talking about culture and arts. And one of the thing actually I started doing is I am putting out BDOs that has nothing to do with business, actually, something that just feels fun for me. [00:27:40] And I eventually want to turn this into like entertainment platform as well. So a little bit of business education for that matter. But also I want to have some sort of like art, like music elements to it. So now if you go to my website, for example, you do see different channels talking about different things, but one channel, I have a committee plus life and they're there. And in that channel I sing. And I just talk about life because life is not one dimensional, you know, like you, you have different, you can have different interests and that's what makes you more interesting than just having one dimension of things to talk about. So, you know, as much as I'd like to talk about NFT stuff, which is like my mindset and somewhat serious stuff, I also put out some fun contents in there as well. [00:28:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. That is so fun. And that must be kind of a nice balance too, because obviously you're, you're super into the entrepreneurial world. So having kind of an outlet that's just much more, maybe a little light, more lighthearted and fun is, is wonderful. I love that. [00:28:53] Natsune Oki: You know, the thing is like my, my, another intention here is like, I think it's actually super, super smart move too in terms of PR and marketing as well in terms of business. You don't want to beat it out of them, you know? Being relevant to the current society is very important to me. And I needed to take out a advantage of the fact that I'm woman and young, like I'm in the best position in terms of being relevant to the current society, you know? Yeah. I can't let that opportunity slide for the sake of my ego of like how I should have looked, because in the end, like market is what decides and just like Kardashians, like they understood, like people make fun of them and stuff like that, but like they understood, you know. So for me, it's kind of like what works in a business is more important than my ego. And I think so, given that being said, I think being relevant to the current society is essentially currency, but in a different form. [00:30:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That makes complete sense to me. So yeah. So, well, you have an amazing story that kind of has led you to where you are, and obviously I'm sure there are so many more twists and turns, but I just, yeah, I'm so impressed with how brave you've been and bold you've been. And then, and, and then how you've just sort of, you know, dived headfirst into these, these adventures and these opportunities and, and really made them your own and then have now shared. Now you're sharing what you've been learning with others, and that's just really cool. So thank you for, you know, doing all of that, 'cause I know it makes a difference in people's lives. And I'm just curious, I'm sure that there are some of our listeners who are gonna want to connect with you and read your book and things like that. Is there a way for us to do that? [00:30:53] Natsune Oki: Yes. So my name is once again, it's Natsune Oki, and that is a nice setup because if you search Natsune Oki, you're going to pretty much find everything about me. And my media channel is called the LifeUp Education TV. And in that a website, lifeupeducationtv.com. You can find all my social media, which I'm active on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and my book as well in there. So, and then my book is called "The Game of Self-Domination." I want to start hosting this show, like a Q and A show and I, I have this Facebook group that people can join to ask me questions and I, I can ask literally, any, any question people want to ask for, I just want to have like a real, more real, like interaction, like one-on-one level interaction, because I feel like that can help people more like a real question then, you know, me coming up with topics. So that's something that I, I'm starting to do so if anyone is interested, you can definitely join up the LifeUp Tribe, which is the name of the group. And then ask me any question you have about mindset and business and marketing like anything. [00:32:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's great. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm sure that, yeah, that sounds great for me personally, but I'm sure that there are definitely some of our listeners who are going to be interested in all of that. So thank you for sharing. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that. [00:32:28] Natsune Oki: Yes. Yes. I mean, yeah, please. [00:32:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:32:37] Natsune Oki: Yes. And I think I would have to go with, so we already talked about, but since I'm such like so heavy into what I do with it, I thought education may be the only thing that I can think of when I think about art is our possibility and our future. [00:32:56] Lindsey Dinneen: I like it. That's, that's so unique, but I, and I just really like that answer. Okay. Second of all, what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:33:09] Natsune Oki: I don't want to start sounding boring, but I really think that there's a key. Artists are the key player in terms of creating something new and creating a future of a future. Like it really like, you know, until now it's it was an engineer, but because now we've built some infrastructures for people to be more creative, possibility is unlimited, like with the artists combined with technology, like it's, it's going to be like crazy. Like it's going to be our future. [00:33:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I love that. And then finally, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's program notes, title, the inspiration, whatever, just to give a little bit more context, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context so it's left solely up to the viewer to determine what they will? [00:34:16] Natsune Oki: Hmm. I think if I answer this, according to what I believe in business, I say exclusive because, you know, there's a one story that I share often, which I learned because I studied economics. There's this concept in economy that was created by the father of economics, Adam Smith. He talks about invisible hand, which is really to say like, economy is at the optimal state when there's no government intervention. And which means that the economy is the healthiest when there's a fully, truly free competition in the economy like that, that was his, one of the theory that he had. And I often talk about that, like, you know, in terms of mindset, I think accountability is such an important thing. Like we can come up with all the reasons of like, why you fail, why you like, why you are not feeding it, whatever, like, whatever it is like, but in the end of the day, like the result is the results. Like if you fail, it's your fault that you didn't catch that the failure was coming. Like I'm not necessarily stating it as a fact, but I'm stating it as like, that's how the mindset should it be, you know? And so how does this relate to your question is that I was just looking at it from the different context here, right? Like I, I looked at your question from the, what I believe in business context, but I think we can to decide how people see. Like it's a free competition and it's up to consumer. Like, I don't assume that my content is good for everyone, you know? And I can't tell you like, like my contents, you know? So that's kind of how I see it. [00:36:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I like that. Well, and that's a really unique perspective that you bring and I, I appreciate that. I appreciate you coming at it from more of a business, like you said, economics background and talking about it that way, because I agree with you. That makes a lot of sense to me. It's just a different way of looking at it. So thank you for that. I really, really liked that answer. Well you, like I said, are just so incredibly inspiring. Your story is amazing. What you've been able to accomplish is fantastic. I'm super excited to check out some of your work myself. I'm sure our listeners will be as well. You're just, just such a inspiring person. So thank you so much for what you are bringing to the world and I know you are just very humble in your approach. You, you want to put it out there and you want to hopefully, you know, make an impact, but you're, I just am so impressed with the way that you do that and the way that you just let it speak for itself. So thank you so much for what you do. Thank you so much for being here today. I really, really appreciate it. [00:37:26] Natsune Oki: Awesome. Thank you so much, Lindsey, for doing such an amazing job so also as a host, like thank you so much. [00:37:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I appreciate that. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:37:49] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:37:58] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In this week's episode, I welcome Justin Alcala! Justin is an author and tabletop gamer and his episode is packed with crazy, amazing stories, including about growing up in a house that was built on behalf of the South Side Mafia in Chicago with a tunnel to the house across the street. He shares about how his daughter has informed his work, along with his advice for aspiring artists. (Fun fact: the cover image is Justin's personal logo artwork!)   Get in touch with Justin Alcala: https://www.justinalcala.com Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 68 - Justin Alcala [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello. Welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am excited to have as my guest today, Justin Alcala, who is an author, tabletop gamer, self-proclaimed nerd ninja from Chicago. And I am just so excited to hear exactly what that means, because I know there's a rich history I can already tell that goes into, to becoming who that person is. So thank you so much for being here, Justin. I appreciate you. [00:02:46] Justin Alcala: Thank you. Thank you. You can add literary misfit too. [00:02:50] Lindsey Dinneen: I like it. I like it. Fantastic. [00:02:53] Justin Alcala: And dork. [00:02:54] Lindsey Dinneen: But now, oh, I can't wait to hear all about all of it. So I will just love if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about, you know, your background, maybe how you got started into art in the first place, and then what's occupying your life now. [00:03:10] Justin Alcala: Ooh. All right. We'll start off with a doozy. So I was, I'm a, I'm a novelist, short story writer. And I was sort of my background I was raised in the sootier part of the south side of Chicago. By no means that I have it bad, but, you know, observed some colorful events here and there that everyday people might not be witness to. But that plus I went to a little more stringent Catholic school and, and sort of union of the two taught me "Be quiet, comply. Don't be weird." And what I realized though is, you know, life is weird. And so those, you know, those curious thoughts, the innocently, spooky, funny, kinky ones, you know, that's really what makes a human who they are that's hard to ignore. So once I figured that out and I figured out that I wanted to get into writing during college I just sort of combined it all sort to start my writing career. [00:04:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Okay. Yeah. And so having the experience of feeling like you had to conform and fit a certain mold, how did that inform what do you do now? [00:04:15] Justin Alcala: Yeah, so long story. You know, my parents were blue collar artists. My mom was a painter, my dad, he did glassblowing metal work. He did all sorts of things, but, you know, to, to make ends meet. They, they both worked very hard. And I was in Catholic school and there were many rules. And, you know, so you have these interesting things where you're you're in the-- we'll call it industrial world-- growing up in, and long story short, after a while it started feeling wrong to always stay quiet. Always I was the little pipsqueak nerd by the way. And so opening my mouth either could get me beat up. It could get me in trouble with the nuns' ruler. Or just get me funny looks. So I stayed quiet for a long time, but then there's just one day where, when I was going to college believe it or not, I started off, I was going to be a police officer. And thank God I didn't go down that one because I probably couldn't fight, fight my way out of a wet paper bag. [00:05:11] I had always been writing since I was as a kid, my poor buddies, John and Dave, and all of them. Johnny, I would write them comics and notice sort of graphic novels and other small pieces and forced them to read them. But one day I was in college. I was taking an English class and I had that Eureka moment where I'm like, I'm already always writing. I had been tabletop writing for a while as well, just you know, my friends playing Dungeons and Dragons, all those great stuff. And I realized that I loved it. And so I started indulging into it and kind of talking to professors, and as well I knew a couple people who knew editors for publishers and it kind of just sparked off from there. And you know, eventually you get some good encouragement, you get bad encouragement too, but you're getting good encouragement and people saying, "Hey, you know, you're really good at this." And you know, that was, holy smokes, 15-16 years ago. And now, poof, what do you know? You know, we have four novels out, about 30 publications and still going strong and it's just been, it's been fantastic. [00:06:16] Lindsey Dinneen: That's awesome. Yeah. I know sometimes it can be hard too to finally let your voice be heard if you're not used to doing so, but kudos to you for getting to that place and, and, and, you know, recognizing that it, it's not only okay to be different, it's great to be different. I mean, people are unique and there are lots of different types of people who sort of end up liking the same things. Like, you know, I'm sure you met a whole group of people who were all tabletop gamers that just got along super well. And it's not like you by yourself anymore, you know, it's this group of people. [00:06:54] Justin Alcala: You unionize, right? [00:06:55] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. I like it. I like it a lot. So, you know, as somebody who is not as familiar with that world, you had mentioned writing, tabletop writing, and I'm curious, because again, this is I, I'm not super familiar. So I'm just curious when you play these games, can you describe for those of us who don't know what it's like when you're playing them? So are you simultaneously writing it as you go? [00:07:21] Justin Alcala: Oh yeah, I'm gonna warn you right here. This is about to get as nerdy as you can. This is going to sound painfully geeky, but let's, let's walk you through the process. So long story short you, and a couple of other people, you get together, you pick your game you want to play that's kind of your environment. That's your world. You know, you can think of fan fiction. It's, it's, it's what you want your protagonist to stay in. Your friends they go ahead. If you're going to be the storyteller. They pick their protagonist and they create them. And there's all sorts of rules that takes a couple of years of advanced math to figure out. But once you do all that, you are, you are their enabler. You tell their story, you move them through the story arc based off of this world that you've sort of created. And through rules of dice and stuff, you find out actually what the answers are. But what I found out was as I was going along, you know, everyone starts off pretty painful. That's the fun thing about the beginning is there are so many parallels with just writing a book, writing a graphic novel writing whatever, your novella, coincide completely with you just sitting around eating Doritos and drinking Mountain Dew with your nerdy friends while you play elves and wizards. So yeah, that's, that's in a nutshell and I promise it would be nerdy and holy smokes probably nerdier that I thought it would be. [00:08:42] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I love it. And I do appreciate it. It is something that's really interesting to me, but I haven't dabbled in it yet. So I'm, I'm always curious to know, okay, these art forms that I haven't learned about yet to like, just tell me all the details. I, I love the nerdy nitty gritty. [00:08:58] Justin Alcala: You put your, you had to put your, your guard down in order to enjoy, but once you do, holy smokes, I've, I've had some of the most serious uptight people play these games and afterwards, "Why can't we do this again?" It's a lot of fun, I promise. [00:09:14] Lindsey Dinneen: It sounds like, it sounds like a great blend of creativity and storytelling combined with the element of a certain level of chance, I guess, based on the dice and things like that. So you kind of have your story going, but then you also get the elements. I don't know, sounds like real life to me. You, you plan ahead. You have this idea for your protagonist and then life throws you a couple dice that you wouldn't have chosen. [00:09:43] Justin Alcala: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then to add to that, to piggyback to that, and then you're doing it all with your buddies and friends. So it's a relaxed environment. It's a lot of fun. You get to sort of just play chalkboard with your own brain. It's a great, yeah. [00:09:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and then, so I'm, I'm interested. Is it, how long do these games typically last? [00:10:05] Justin Alcala: Oh, goodness. These days, so now that I have, now that I have children, I've had to taper it down a bit. So I you'll meet maybe once a week or so if all schedules workout and you'll do it for three or four hours long ago before my friends and I, the basement trolls, we had our responsibilities. You could do it all day, 13, 14 hours, show up to someone's house before lunch. Midnight, one in the morning, you're heading home and finally calling it quits for the day. So it all depends on your group, but they can go for a very long time and then they can go their campaigns themselves goes for years. [00:10:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. That's amazing. [00:10:48] Justin Alcala: I told you. [00:10:49] Lindsey Dinneen: It's commitment for you. I mean, I used to think that one game of Monopoly was commitment, but no. [00:10:56] Justin Alcala: Oh no. This is a whole 'nother league. [00:10:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, man. That's fantastic. Okay. And so obviously that, you know, sparked this interest in and realization that like, "Oh, if I can do this here, then I can also, I can write my own books." So tell me about the process of, of maybe your very first book. 'Cause I would imagine, and you can tell me if I'm incorrect, but I would imagine that might've been the hardest one just because the whole process was newer to you. But tell me about that. [00:11:26] Justin Alcala: The first hurdle is always the worst hurdle, right? And I think I was, what I was doing if I can jump back into the way back machine, I was already writing, but I just didn't have the courage to really take it seriously. And so, because, you know, writing something for yourself is fun, but I'm actually creating something and sending it out to the world. That takes a great amount of courage and bravery. And most people, you know, they know they never want to do that. They never want to press that send button. And I think all that gaming actually really did was show me here's some of the other tools for, you know, creating yourself a plot and also gave me the courage to say, it's not that big of a deal. Just try it, do it. But my first book consumed-- which is, I think it came out in 2011 or 2012, its first edition-- was something that I had been brewing on for a long time. I, I grew up in a interesting house on the south side. It was the, some people call it the haunted house. There was, I could go into a whole 'nother story about. There was tunnels from the prohibition under our house and the house across the street from us that connected, but that's a whole 'nother thing, but there was a, it was a kind of a creepy house. And I always liked ghost stories as well. [00:12:37] And when we'd go to the libraries, I would always pick up The Goosebumps. I'd pick up the scary stories to tell in the dark. And so I had been sitting on those and then along with borrowing my mom's "Interview with the Vampire" book and "Dracula" books, I sort of had all these stored up ideas. And so finally when I had the bravery to create something it was a mismatch, a mishmash of pretty much all of writer's first books are, holy smokes, borrowed his hack. It was a mishmash of everything from Sherlock Holmes, Bram Stoker's" Dracula" and Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein." And it was all put together in this Victorian London mystery. And I put it together. And when I finally said, "Oh, I think this is great," I sent it out to the world. And then I got rejection and then yeah, I got two rejections, three, four or five. And the only thing that I think really helped me to get that first book published, which if anyone's listening and you're thinking about publishing a book, your first one is by far the hardest one. The only thing that kept me going was that, you know, I, I, I just knew that if you continue, someone's got to be drunk enough or high enough to put it somewhere, right? So eventually I, I did get that all mighty heavenly choir email from publishing, which since unfortunately his closed up, but said, "Hey, we love it. Let's work with it." And it, they assigned me some editors, et cetera, et cetera. And it was a tough process. [00:14:02] You have to, have to, have to be ready to take very raw, very straightforward opinions and not be afraid. A lot of people can't do that. And I will, I will say early on, I really did struggle with that nowadays. I, I, I ask people to rip me apart. Publisher Parliament House, I was talking to the editors during a production meeting, and I said, "Please, whoever, whichever editor you signed to. I want it extra ripped apart." I needed it. I need this to be torn apart, but early on, it was very difficult, but you go through that process. It's a year or two process of getting it on the pages and making it fit, right? And then you get out and there's no more special feeling than that first book getting out. Nowadays, I look at that first edition. I think I have an old, you know, dog-eared version somewhere in my office and it is cringe worthy, but, but at the time it was, it was amazing. It was a miracle. [00:15:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And that is, that is so cool, just that moment of holding it in your hands. I bet after all that hard work and the rejections and all the things, and then you just get to hold it and you're like. [00:15:15] Justin Alcala: Oh my goodness. Please, please, please. There's no-- it doesn't have to be me, but if you have any anybody you follow that's a writer or whatnot, even the big, the biggest of big dogs, even the, you know, Andrew Smith's and Christopher Moore's, every, every purchase counts. Might just be 15 bucks works for you, but every purchase counts towards things and every review is, is a little bit of saying thank you and I love you to those people for the crazy amount of work that you sometimes have to put in the books and authors love doing it. Don't get me wrong, but it does. It's a nice pat on the back. [00:15:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that probably goes for all art forms. Anytime that you have a chance. I'll just get on my soap box for a second here. But anytime you have a chance to show an artist, a little love, even it doesn't even like money is obviously very important. So we have all have bills to pay, but even if it's just like, "Hey, I, I see you. I see what you're doing. Good job." Those kinds of things matter so much. I don't know if you're the same way, Justin, but just those kind of little affirmations --it doesn't have to be anything huge, but it makes a big difference for sure. [00:16:23] Justin Alcala: For sure. Right. And you know, I've, I've kind of to this day, I, I've, you can say grown thick skin to where I don't need the confirmations, but when I get-- I'm not going to lie-- it kind of gives a little, you know, Thumper from "Bambi" look, my eyes get big. And I think it's, yeah. You know, it does feel nice, but yeah, for sure. [00:16:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I relate to that. I think especially early on in your career, the more encouragement you can get and constructive criticism, I mean, you have to have both, but the more that you can get feedback the better. But then I do agree that, you know, later on as you're an established professional, and you're like, "Well, I, I do kind of understand how to do this" then, but it is still nice every time. I'll just throw that out there. So. Yep. Absolutely. Well, okay. So we're just, we're going to have to, we're going to have to talk about those prohibition tunnels. I just, I can't let that. [00:17:19] Justin Alcala: It's a itch that must be scratched, huh? [00:17:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Tell me about this whole thing. [00:17:26] Justin Alcala: Not a problem. So I grew up in a house where, you know, some spooky, interesting things happen. I, we, we could go on the debate of what it was if it was explainable or not. But the legend behind the house we had like an old school, you know, that guy in the corner, who's, you know, 70, 80, and he's seen it all in this town. You know, there's always a legend that there's tunnels under our house and he would tell us how you'd see gangsters back in the day go in there into our house and then come out the other house with bags. Or there's a golf course across the street from us as well that, that allegedly the tunnels went through too. And they'd see them coming out. But long story short, the rumor is that Al Capone's south side school squad pretty much, they, they financed those houses for the builders and the catch was that when we need to pretty much run booze, you just comply and you get the house for free, right? When you went into our basement, there was all, it's a creepiest, as creepy as it could be the set of a horror film, cobwebs and cement floors and rafters, but on the walls, it was all just solid and blank except for one little section where it was bricked up, and if you went into the house across the street, which a buddy of mine lived there, same exact thing facing each other and everything. If you went down there, you'd feel cold breezes. [00:18:48] And we never wanted to open it up. So because obviously that would, you know, it could destroy the structure, but later on in life it was very strange. Later on in life though, you know, it was always myth and legend. I was working the corporate world and this manager came in out of nowhere and said, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I, I used to live on the south side of Chicago." Yeah, well, I lived on the south side. We were both working downtown at the moment and we started comparing notes, turns out his great uncle was the guy who helped build those tunnels in between. And he said that they were paid triple. And this was during a time when jobs were really at an all time low. So they had to take the job, but they were sworn to secrecy. And the only time he said anything was on his death bed, that there were tunnels under there. And I was like, "You've gotta be kidding me. I lived in that house!" You know, he was just trying to tell a fun story. And I was like, "No, no, no, that was my house. That was my house." So turns out to this day, it was true, but also a lot of schools, interesting things happen in between sounds and some weird sightings that we just can't explain. And we think it's maybe the builder of the house or the gangsters that are. [00:20:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my goodness. That story is fantastic. I think I was just sitting here smiling, but with my mouth open the whole time of like, what? [00:20:12] Justin Alcala: And obviously these have been, you know, helped me inspire some of my some of the horror stories that I've had in anthologies, because you don't grow up for 18 years in a house like that, not tell any of those stories in other ways. [00:20:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Oh my goodness. That is wow. Well, that is a very unique like background to draw from. So, I mean, obviously it gave you lots of material if that's any. [00:20:40] Justin Alcala: Oh yeah. So yeah. You know, and to this day, once again, I mean, these days I'm fearless about it, but you know, you can bring it up to some people and they look at you like, "Okay, this guy is not dealing with a full deck here," but it's a, it's true, weird things that happen in our house. But there were definitely some tunnels in between our houses that the south side mafia used during the prohibition to flip, to flip booze, and funny add on to that story: when I was moving out, my father passed away when I was 18 and I decided I wanted to go and do the, you know, the, the head on out and live my own life story. But my friend and I just out of curiosity said, "Dude, let's see if we could break a breakdown in that wall." We did. And there was another brick wall, clay bricks after that, but the installation there was crumpled up newspapers in between and sure enough, they were from the twenties. They were barely faded and you could barely read some of them, but yeah, they were dated from the 20th, et cetera. It was, it was pretty neat. We didn't go any further. We, we chickened out after that though. [00:21:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, my word. That is amazing. And also I am so curious. Do you know if anything has ever come of those houses? Like, has anyone decided to be like, "Okay, this is historic. We're going to figure out what actually happened. Is there anything like that?" [00:21:56] Justin Alcala: So regrettably it's quite the opposite. The house across the street, a lawyer bought it and turned it into a business where he just works out of his house. It was a beautiful house too, across the street and our house, unfortunately it had always had, even growing up, so some mild issues with, with it. And then we had a fire that is a whole 'nother story. I had to jump out of a window of my, in my underwear when I was 17 to survive. But after it was repaired from the fire, it was not repaired correctly and the entire walls and everything from the water damage to the firefighters, molded everything up. And I hear it is unfortunately in ruins now. [00:22:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, sorry to hear. [00:22:39] Justin Alcala: Yeah, I know. I know, but no, that's okay. But so I, you know what we should probably do is go in on it and buy it. And then finally go break out that basement and see if there's any money in there. [00:22:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Huh? Right, right. Or anything. I'm just like, there could be so much. It's killing me a little bit. There could be so much historical, you know, anything there. It's just fantastic. What a story. Oh, my word. [00:23:06] Justin Alcala: Yeah. When I was a kid, I was afraid and, you know, that I would tell stories about that. That was going to turn to a Goonies episode where there was skeletons and slides with spikes. And, but now, nowadays I'm thinking, "Ah, there's probably just old garbage in there in between. Who knows?" [00:23:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, probably, but still that's the fun thing, I guess, about being an author is you can create your own ending to it and you don't have to go with what it actually is. [00:23:32] Justin Alcala: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. [00:23:35] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that is so fun. Well, I'm curious, I know you're a dad now and congrats on that and I'm. [00:23:43] Justin Alcala: Thank you so much. [00:23:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I'm curious how that has informed your work or has it changed? Obviously it's changed your time availability, but has it changed other elements about the way that you produce arts? [00:23:57] Justin Alcala: Absolutely so, but in a good way. So as far as the schedule goes now, it just means I have to wake up super early. I wake up at 6:00 AM and try to get as much in before I hear the first "Oh, Daddy!"S from my daughter, Lily. But you do have to wake up a little bit earlier, but I think what it's also done is that children are fantastically innocent and they can say these amazingly prolific things to you that is just raw thoughts to them that gets you thinking again, it gets you questioning things, pieces that you might have thought back in the day were overused or just hack as far as stories and ideas. Your kids can really inspire you to do something with them, but it doesn't change your DNA as a writer whatsoever. I mean, I am working on a story right now that will be out 2022, "The Last Stop," which is pretty much a kid's horror book. Think of, you know, the things that probably growing up, you had The Goosebumps, and, and whatnot. [00:24:52] But in my opinion, and you know, people have scoffed at me before, is like those books for me as a child really helped me out. They were great tools for me. Because if you deny a child, the, the chance to understand that there are things out there that are bad-- you know, there are dark and spooky things out there-- you're also denying them the tools to deal with those things. So for me and my kids, I mean my kids and I, so Halloween spooky stories, it's all fun for them. They are very much acclimated to it. They know scary stories. We do it. We were not The Adams Family about it. We do it in small increments and we have fun with it, but they understand that we do not keep that from them. And it's gone so much as to inspire me to try to go ahead and indulge middle grade writing and see where it takes me as far as writing spooky stories for kids. [00:25:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I really like that. And I think that you're spot on. I think that sometimes in an effort to want to protect innocence-- and that is noble too-- but in an effort to do so, we sort of veer a little too much on the other side and protect too much instead of giving kiddos an opportunity, especially through stories 'cause what a powerful way too. It's fiction. It's not real. So what a powerful way to share truths about life and get them, you know, to a point where they can learn how to overcome some things that happened that are scary. So, yeah. Kudos to you. [00:26:27] Justin Alcala: And art. It's so interesting. Because kids get art, you know. Art is creation through aptitudes and inspiration, you know, in order to communicate something wonderful. And you know, and for me, it's using also what's playful, awkward, maybe a little spooky, little dorky to tap into the human element and entertain. And I'll tell you what, kids, I feel like far better than adults, you know, there's a lot of complications that come with adults when it comes to taking in art of any form from painting to writing. It'd be just because you have your, a lot of your own experiences that you filter it through, but kids, they take it, they take the lessons of it. They take the, the metaphors, all of it, and they put it to great use. So, you know, we, I don't think sometimes we give them enough credit when it comes to art and the translation of it, but they're fantastic at it. [00:27:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And it's such a fun, different perspective when you talk to a, a kid about their experience with art versus an adult. And I think, yeah, well, they just have a more, like you said, kind of filtered view because of things that they've gone through or just their perception and things like that. And kids are just like, "Well, it's a butterfly clearly." Like. [00:27:41] Justin Alcala: Right. Oh my God. And my daughter, it's funny, you know, she can say the most prolific things to me, you know, about, about "Why did you do that, Lily?" And, well, "My heart told me to, it feels right." And I think that's something that everyone should do. And you hear that you sit and you go, wow. And then her next sentence is, " Let's go get some Cheetos." It's the, it's the best of, it's the yin and the yang of life. [00:28:07] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And that's, it kind of sounds like something I would say now though, like. [00:28:15] Justin Alcala: Right, exactly. Exactly. Right. It's just, it's just a filter. [00:28:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's awesome. Oh my goodness. Well, this is fantastic. And I know that, you know, a big thing that you're passionate about sharing with people is to embrace your, embrace your inner dork or your nerdy side, or what makes you unique. Do you want to share a little bit about maybe some advice you have for somebody who's afraid to put their work out there because they just don't feel like they go along with the majority or, or what's normal, whatever that means. [00:28:52] Justin Alcala: Yeah, absolutely. The problem is a lot of times, you know, and, and hopefully my contribution to life someday is, is inviting people to embrace what makes them unique, you know, and I do it through stories obviously, but it's just life in general. You know, we have these unique situations in life, strange characters, and people like to suffocate that within themselves. They like to tell themselves, you know, this is nothing society wants me to act this way. I am supposed to interpret how I feel, not by my own, you know, in the words of my daughter, not by my own heart, but by the way people tell me to do things, and we invest far too much in what people think. I will tell you now, the most liberating thing I ever did was, it was just right. Because I'm nerdy and yeah, weird. And I'm a little strange and I just, I wrote it. I got it out. And let me tell you, at first, when I was writing and suffocating all these ideas, people would tell me my writing was just meh. Stepped up and just let it be free. And, and put myself on the pages. People are like, this is fantastic. I could feel the human element of this. The dialogue is great. I, this is, this seems real to me, it's this tangible, even when I write some of the goofiest of things. And so I would encourage anyone to just, you know, metaphorically walk down the street naked, and I'll tell you what. [00:30:12] People, people you don't need in your lives, they're going to go away. And so people who stick around after they hear your true voice not only will it be liberating for you, but those are the greatest people that will encourage you to the future. And that's not just writing. Obviously for me, the, the lesson is to do with writing, but that's just life in general be you. And I guarantee you, for me, I was me and it really helped me kick off my writing career, but it also just helped me be a happy person. People who know me, where they know what they're going to get. They're going to get some weird, weird, strange talk from me some ideas on what would happen if we could fly through space, goofy, goofy ideas about everything from consumer Lou to Tony, the tiger. But if they're laughing about it, fantastic, that's what you get with me. But you should do the same. You should just stop being who people want you to be and be yourself. It's very rewarding. [00:31:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Thank you for that. I love that advice and I agree something that you said kind of stood out to me too. You know, you're talking about the people who don't need to be in your life will leave. And the people who do need to be in your life will, will stay in the, and there'll be supportive. And I think one element to that too, is the more that we are able to liberate ourselves, the more liberating that can be to other people. And so the more that we're willing to be vulnerable in a sense, and put our true selves out there, I think that opens up opportunities for other people to do the same, where they might feel otherwise nervous or scared too. But then in the context of you being willing to be honest and talk about your failures, talk about your successes, talk about the bumps and the good points, I think it makes a big difference for other people. [00:32:04] Justin Alcala: Absolutely, absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head. Once you start seeing other people do it, or once you do it yourself, the other people will inspire you, but and once you start doing it, you will inspire others. And I think it's all very good for the world. We are such a-- I don't want to, I don't want to go on too long-- but we are such a society who just needs approval of others. And I tell you what, that's probably the biggest cancer of my life was when I did do that. And, you know, there are things that dictate it. You know, obviously if you're working a corporate world, you have to have managers' approvals and et cetera. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about letting other people affect your life. And I think hopefully someday, you know, with, with the, if you pick up one of my books, you, you will get that there will be examples left and right tell you to be yourself. [00:32:55] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And speaking of that, where can we find your work and follow it and be a part of your journey and, and support you? [00:33:05] Justin Alcala: Oh, yeah, well, you can go to www.justinalcala.com that sort of has a portal to everything. But I'm on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo, anything, anywhere where great books are written and, and sold and currently I am-- October 6th, I believe, Parliament House Publishing and I are working on "A Dead End Job." And that will be out. You can pre-order that. Please do, if you can, it's-- you get a little discount if you do it now, but it's a fantastically weird story. And I think I, I'm really proud of it. I think we've really worked hard, the editors and I, in getting it out for readers. [00:33:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. And I just want to make a quick note and I hope I'm speaking correctly. But pre-orders are really important for book sales. They're really important for the author and for, yeah. So as much as you can support the authors ahead of time and go ahead and pre-order your book, the is just, it, it It helps those books once they are actually published to rank higher on the list and more people can see them. So if you're interested in supporting authors, please do so that way. [00:34:13] Justin Alcala: The more pre-orders you get, the higher in the rankings and the free advertisements and the recommendations other people receive. So literally people pre-ordering, you know, a lot of people say, "Well, I'll just get it when it comes out," literally pre-ordering is going to an artist, a writer on another tier as far as their sales go and it literally helps them once the book comes out start going shoulder to shoulder with the big dogs, instead of possibly just going with a, you know, as something that is someone's, you know, possible fun fan fiction that they went ahead and published and it's just for fun. And they're, it's more of a good hobby for them. Not to say that's not important, but it, it helps, it helps the artist all the work that they've put into it, go shoulder to shoulder with other people who deserve it. [00:35:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yes. Awesome. Okay. Well, this has all been fantastic. I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that. [00:35:12] Justin Alcala: Sure. [00:35:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Okay. Fantastic. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:35:21] Justin Alcala: Yes, I think I may have said it before that art is creation through the aptitude and inspiration in order to communicate something amazing. And for me, you know, it's using what's playful, awkward, and a little dorky to tap into the human element and entertain. [00:35:38] Lindsey Dinneen: I love it. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:35:43] Justin Alcala: The most important part is communicate and inspire. If you have to find a fundamental way to connect to someone through your medium, and once you communicate with them, you inspire them to take what you said and make it their own. And for books, any characters' story, once I get it out in the world, it was no longer my story. It is the reader's story. What they think is far more important about the protagonist /antagonist, the plot than anything that I've dreamed up, it is their world to be inspired and kind of take it into their own lives and contribute. [00:36:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. And then my final question, and you sort of maybe touched on your answer for this. So I'll be curious to know where you go with it, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And I will define my terms. So by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind that, whether it's program notes or title or something, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context. And so it's left entirely up to the viewer or the participant to decide what they do. [00:36:53] Justin Alcala: I am 100%-- I'll fight people through the end of the earth-- exclusive. I think that once you create something and get it out to the world, what do you hang up a painting or write a book, it is no longer yours. You don't need to describe it. I think when you do the only thing that you really do-- for me writing, I'm taking the best medium that I have in order to create something for enjoyment. Why would I take something like my clumsy tongue and then try to explain what I've already created for the person to enjoy? It is theirs. It is exclusive to them. And over-explaining, it just really is always a bad idea. [00:37:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. So do you, so then out of curiosity, as my follow-up question, do you ever personally do like author talks where people can ask you specific questions? [00:37:47] Justin Alcala: Absolutely. But I always, I always make sure to, to let them know this is just one idiot's opinion. This is, this is just my opinion. And hopefully you could take whatever's in my books and come up with a better answer for it. But I am more than happy to take talks and I, and I've done. So I, I'm probably rubbish at them, but I do do it, but I always warn people that you're probably best just reading the book to get that answer out of me. Sure, of course, I'll always answer. [00:38:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Very good. Well, Justin, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. Your stories are, your stories are fantastic. I can't wait to read your books and just yeah, thank you for just embracing who you are and sharing that with the world. Obviously it's resonated and it's going to continue to resonate. It's going to continue to inspire people who might feel like they can't do that. So thank you for, for leading the way in that. And yeah, this has been so much fun. I really appreciate your time together. Thank you. [00:38:56] Justin Alcala: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I had a great time. [00:38:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Good, good. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I highly encourage you to check out Justin's work, pre-order his latest book, help support his artistic journey. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:39:21] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:39:31] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In this week's episode, I welcome Aunia Kahn! Aunia is a true jack-of-all-trade artist. She has excelled in many different art forms, from a painter, graphic designer, and website developer, to podcast host, speaker, and writer--with a brief stint as a one-woman band. She shares her artistic journey and lots of sage advice in her delightful episode. (Fun fact: the cover image for this podcast is one of Aunia's original paintings!)   Get in touch with Aunia Kahn: https://auxiliumhaus.com/ | https://auniakahn.com/ Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 67 - Aunia Kahn [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Aunia Kahn. She is a creative entrepreneur extraordinaire. I feel like that's maybe a good summary there. So many different things that she has dabbled in and obviously is an expert in, so everything from podcasting to graphic design to writing, I believe, and I would say probably a whole smattering of things in between. So thank you so much for joining us today on your I'm so excited to have you here. [00:02:53] Aunia Kahn: Thank you. And yes, I do. [00:02:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Okay, good. I thought so. All right. Well, I would love if you would just share with us a little bit about your background, kind of maybe how you got started, if you're okay with that. [00:03:06] Aunia Kahn: Yeah, totally. So I kind of came into art in a very strange way. A lot of people come into art because that's what they just want to do. And I didn't come on to art that way. I grew up in a family where I wasn't really supported artistically and I was really encouraged to do like, quote unquote, normal job. And so that's the direction that I went with. My life is studying psychology and other things completely outside of art, but I had always been somebody who just loved art and enjoyed it, but never thought it could be a career. And then I got really sick around the age of 19 and started to have some pretty extensive health crisises, crisis's crazy. Anyway, it's a weird word. Health, health concerns, health issues. And I ended up turning to art as a way to work through those challenges. And because I was always a really driven individual, I've always been very goal oriented and like check off the boxes kind of person in my life that in doing so I felt like I needed to do something with it, not just make the art, but maybe do something with it. [00:04:27] And one day I was out of my house, which I didn't go out very much. I mean, I was very housebound. I went out to this little park and it was this art thing for kids, and I was there and I was at a little table and I was doing some watercolor pencils. And some gentleman walked up to me and said, "Can I take a picture of you?" And I was like, "Mm. Yeah, no, like who are you?" And he said, "Well, I'm a local, you know, photographer for the local newspaper and we're doing a little thing." And we ended up talking, becoming friends and down the road, he is the person that talked me into first exhibiting my art and putting it out there publicly. And that's how it all started. I started to submit to exhibitions. I started to win awards. I started to get into ,shows but that's kind of how I got started in the world of exhibiting art. [00:05:25] Graphic and web design I was doing prior to 'cause I was really interested in music and doing music covers and websites well before the art stuff, just for fun. But that's kind of how I got into art and how I got kind of pushed into a place that I really didn't think that could ever support me or that I'd ever be good at, or I'd ever really have success. I just, I was like, oh, okay. This is kind of weird, but I felt connected, Lindsey. I felt really connected with people because I would put my artwork and shows and I would have people make really intense reactions to the work because the work back then was a lot more dark. It had a lot to do with childhood trauma and other really difficult situations. So it was hard for me to even put that stuff on a wall, let alone deal with people's reactions to my work from a distance, but I realized that it was cathartic. [00:06:23] And since I'd always been somebody who is interested in psychology, I kind of learned that I couldn't be a therapist because of my illness and because I'm too empathetic, but in a way I'm inadvertently helping people by working with trauma and challenging situations through my art, where other people can relate to them and be able to work through it on their own as well. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. And of course it goes on from there, but that's, that's the nutshell over the last 15 years. [00:06:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. So, well, I love the nutshell. That definitely that is so cool. It encapsulates so many different experiences and wow, what an amazing story to go from this like random chance encounter to then that's what kind of sparked your, your creative journey to a different level. Like you said, you were already a graphic designer and so you had that artistic bent, but then too, Oh, my word. Just take it and run through meeting this stranger who asks you this awkward question? I really love that story. [00:07:32] Aunia Kahn: And I was just going to say it was the same with the graphic design element. I ended up having a friend who had an extra computer and he was just like, "do you, do you want it? It has Photoshop and all this stuff on it. And I know you were interested in web stuff for the band that you were doing." And I said, "yes." And now we're 15 years later and I'm, I do web design, websites and graphic stuff and all that kind of stuff, you know, for a living alongside my art. So two chance encounters, really two, two very different situations and two very different people who I've definitely let them know, like, "thank you." I wouldn't be here today without you, kind of changed my life. [00:08:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's, that's awesome. Sometimes I think it only takes, you know, one person, whether it's a chance encounter or someone you happen to know or whatever, but they just say the right thing at the right moment. And then it like launches something you, you wouldn't have ever expected. I mean, I've had that experience too. It's special. It's, it's-- you never know when you're going to be that person to somebody else too. So always, you know, pointing people in an encouraging direction, and I'm going off on a tangent here. I'm just recognizing the fact that sometimes those individuals don't realize how much of a difference they're making in the moment. So, yeah, I think it's cool that you go back in and say thanks. [00:08:51] Aunia Kahn: Yeah. People don't know. I mean, how many times has people's lives been changed by one person and that one person doesn't ever have any clue. [00:08:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So you had mentioned graphic design and website design, but then you had sort of snuck in this thing about having a band. What was that? [00:09:11] Aunia Kahn: I don't anymore. This was, this was a long time ago. I did, I did music. I had my own, like a project that was the best way that I could explain it for like the layman, is I was kind of like a female Nine Inch. So I did all the percussion. I did all of the vocals. I did all the mastering of the tracks. I did all the work. I am not at all successful like Nine Inch Nails. So I'm not comparing it like that, like I was amazing. Just kind of like the similar, how, you know, music is constructed. I really didn't have other people with me. It was really just my own thing. And I also ran a small record label along with it, with other bands in the same genre. So it was Gothic industrial synth pop kind of music. Had to quit that because of my illness, unfortunately, but that's kind of where I started to, you know, create album covers and all that. That's kind of where it started. So it was a lot of fun and I miss it. I really do. I've been thinking about revisiting that part of my creativity again, but I haven't sure. [00:10:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, how fun. Well, and I know you also are a podcast host. I'd love to hear about what, what is your podcast about and all of that. [00:10:23] Aunia Kahn: Sure. So I do two different podcasts. I have one called the Auxilium House podcast, which is my graphic and web design business. So I give businesses tips and tricks about web design, marketing cause I do a lot of marketing and branding as well. So I run that and then, and that's just kind of like here and there. And then I've had the Creighton Inspire podcast since 2013, 14-- I think 14 and that's been kind of an on and off thing where it's just really about helping artists, giving, giving them ideas about, you know, same thing, kind of like crossover-- marketing, websites how to navigate social media, how to deal with challenging times, how to get into art galleries. Just basically like how to, and then it's kinda coupled like with my blog now where I have blogs and I have videos that I do on YouTube with like the same content. So I'm doing the podcast from time to time, probably like once or twice a month, videos about once a week. And so there's probably like two or three blogs being posted a month with information with, like I said, tutorials, helpful information to really just help inspire artists, and then also dealing with artists in the challenging aspects of a career, feeling really bad about yourself, you know, feeling challenged by other artists that are better than you, feeling like you're worthless. [00:11:50] I mean, there's just so many things that artists go through because art is such intrinsic-- what's the other word I want to say like, oh, just like deep experience for a lot of people, you know, when people are creating things, whether it's music, art, Anything that they're creating. I mean, you could just be like, you know, I don't know, remodeling a car when you put your energy into something that you're creating. There's a lot of soul that goes into it. And there's a lot of feeling of uncomfortability. Is there going to be social validation? Am I going to be supported? Are people going to make fun of me? So I really try to help artists work through that. [00:12:25] Lindsey Dinneen: I, I love that. And that is so important because I think that happens so often where it's not just the actual work that you're creating. It's all of the mental work that goes into it as well. And it is, it's an undertaking and it is something where, you know, you, you, you put your best out there and you hope that it's good. You hope that it resonates with someone and a lot of it is just like, well, we'll see. So learning to be comfortable with that is is challenging, but can be really, really cool too, to see the end result of that. So, yeah. That's great that you do that. I love that. Your podcasts sound fantastic. Yeah. I'm super excited to check them out. [00:13:09] Aunia Kahn: Thanks. [00:13:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And so then, okay. So I guess what all keeps you busy these days? Cause I obviously feel like you're so multi-talented, so what are all the different things that you're, that you're doing like regularly today? [00:13:27] Aunia Kahn: Oh, boy. [00:13:30] Lindsey Dinneen: I know. [00:13:30] Aunia Kahn: There's, there's, you know, it's one of those things I think, I think there's just different types of creators and I'm just somebody who just really has a hard time not doing things. And being kind of still, I think partially because I lost so many years with my illness, that I'm still trying to catch up with time and I'm also fast anyway. So I've always, and I'm always doing something. Like I like, I like to expand. And I, I think the biggest thing that I'm doing right now is challenging myself to not be in a box because over the last 15 years, I've had a career as an artist that does a specific type of art. And people know me for that art. They just do. That's my name is connected with that and, and I want to bring up my illness cause this is really challenged and change those last few months for me is, over the last couple of years, I finally got a diagnosis after almost 20 years. And I finally got medication, which has helped support my system, and I'm allergic to everything. So that's what my disease is. I'm basically like allergic to things like most foods, even water at times. [00:14:39] So it has meant for me as an artist that I couldn't touch physical mediums, so I couldn't paint. I had to do everything digitally. I couldn't work in colored pencil because I could have a life-threatening allergic reaction touching something. So over the last numerous years of my career, since 2005, I have primarily been a digital artist. I could deal with graphite from time to time. So I did do that. But other than that, I haven't been able to, and with the pandemic happening in May of last year, not this year. So we're coming up on a year anniversary of this. I was able to work in color pencil for the first time and I didn't have any reaction. And then I slowly in November moved into watercolor. And so I'm exploring all of these new mediums. I have some projects as well, but I'm exploring new mediums and they're not as refined as my other work. And it's very scary to put it out there and know that people are going to hate and they're going to judge it because like anything, when we are used to it. [00:15:40] I mean, think of bands, Lindsey, like, oh yeah, this band, we know it for this music. And then if they change their style, people are like, "This is stupid. I hate it. This is not what I'm used to." And I understand that we enjoy the feeling of knowing what we're going to get from somebody, because that's why we followed them, right? Like we know the kind of music they're going to. If a band is playing metal music, and then all of a sudden they become country singers, it's like, well, that's not my kind of music I like. I mean, you know, but I, but I want to encourage that that's great. Like do what you want to do. Like, I think it's amazing when bands and artists shift themselves completely, I think it's, it's prolific, but for me as a person who's done it, it's been very hard. I, I kind of knew who I was. I knew where I stood. I kind of understood my career. And now I'm like, "Who am I? I don't know who I am," you know, putting out art that's completely different. [00:16:33] So one of the ways to remedy this was to create a project called the Portrait Project, which I know is just a general name, but I didn't have anything special. And the idea is people were able to submit pictures of themselves to me. And I was going to randomly pick people through this pool to paint them so that I could master --not really master, cause I don't believe anybody's a master-- but get better, improve in the mediums that I'm working in using realistic faces of people who perhaps couldn't pay me for our commission or maybe wouldn't have had the opportunity to, to be in an, a piece of artwork. So we're talking, you know, different sexes, different races, different ages. So I'm using all people of the world. And this gives me the ability to grow and all artwork once completed is donated to the subject and they have an opportunity to pay me with a donation or if they are unable to do so they don't have. But they can, or people who are not a part of the project can donate to the project. And I also have an Amazon wishlist that has products like tape and, you know, paper and things that I use to ship the artwork. So that's one of the ways that I'm, I'm remedy, remedying it by creating a community connection. I'm healing and I want the community to be a part of it. So that's the real big focus and project that I'm currently working in. [00:17:59] And then I'm working on commissions on a regular basis. I'm doing some book covers. I'm obviously have graphic and web design clients that I work with on a regular basis that are primarily in numerous industries. So I, you know, have had people in HR and I have artists and I have all these wonderful clients that I'm working with. I'm working on a bird book. So I love birds and I started to paint birds in these mediums. And so I'm creating a bird book with these really cool stories about each of them birds. There's probably like 20 different things that are going, but I think those are the biggest things that are happening. And then of course my exhibition schedule, working with different galleries that I work with yearly for different shows. And podcasting and popping on podcasts and writing blogs and doing videos and just doing the thing. [00:18:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Just doing lots of things. Do you sleep? [00:18:56] Aunia Kahn: No. And then people often ask, do I drink coffee or do drugs? And neither, like, I can't do anything. Like, you know, like I'm allergic to everything. I just, I run on, I run on passion for life, really. Like, I'm glad to be here. I think that's why I have so much energy because I didn't think I was going to make it here and to this part of my life. I really didn't. And I'm, I'm glad to be alive. And so I think that there there's just a lot of passion behind that. Like I saw, I have gray hair now, like a good streak in my hair. Good witchy streak on both sides of my temples. And most people would be like, "ew yeah." And I'm like, I love it. I'm alive, I'm here. And so that's where the energy comes from. Just the passion of losing a large chunk of my life, but also just, I'm really glad to be alive. [00:19:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, thank you for sharing that story because that's incredibly powerful and it is so interesting to hear how you've adapted and just, you know, gone with what you did have. And, and it sounds-- I don't mean to diminish anything that you've been through, but I, I also commend you for, for looking for the positive and looking for what you can do. I think that's would be a very challenging thing to do when you feel like you've lost a lot. And so I think it's so amazing what you're producing and just, you know, your, your passion, your energy, your drive for life, and then what you've been able to do as a result of, of that, and bring a very unique viewpoint to the world. So, man, kudos to you. My word! [00:20:30] Aunia Kahn: I appreciate that. I think that's one of the things I love to encourage in other people is finding what you can do. It's hard-- I mean, especially now with the pandemic, it's hard for us not to, you know, think about, "oh, I can't do that. I can't do that." And when we realized the things that we can do, it really does help lift our spirits. I think it's an important refrain for almost anybody who's dealing with anything challenging. It's like, what, what can you do? I mean, I did that when I became allergic to all of my jewelry. Like I couldn't wear any of my jewelry anymore because I'm a highly allergic to metals. And I used to just look at my jewelry and I used to be somebody who wore rings on every finger. I mean, I was just very much into jewelry. I remember the day that I was like, I can't do this. I can't look at it anymore. It just reminds me of the can'ts. So I put it all away. And then I remember going online and finding acrylic jewelry and beaded jewelry and doing all that. And it really just shifted that feeling. And so I'd love to encourage other people because everybody's going through something right now, everybody who's listening I'm sure is, has gone through something or is going through something and just kind of, it's not always that feeling of-- people say, "oh, find the good in it." It's like, sometimes you can't find the good in it sometimes really you can't, you need to sit with those feelings, but what can you do? What, what can you do to adapt to the current situation? [00:21:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I love that perspective. Thank you for sharing that. I think that is just so inspiring, but so incredibly important and you're right. People can relate to that and, and I, I've been more recently sort of tuned into the whole, you know, it's okay to sit with those feelings. I think for a long time, I sort of had a, oh, you know, just trying to find the bright side. And sometimes, like you said, there's not a bright side or it's not immediately known, you know? And so it's hard if you don't let yourself just process, like, yes, this is, this is not fun. This is not ideal. But what can I do? Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So, okay. Well, good gravy. You are amazing and inspiring and I-- no, I mean it, I, I, you know, and I think especially your idea of the, you talked about sort of switching gears and, and going to this, this new way of doing art and, and, and so also kudos to you for being brave, because I also know what that's like is when you've like kind of established who you are and then you veer in a different direction. And sometimes people don't like it, but being true to yourself is really important. So kudos to you for that. So this community project is, do you-- is part of it that you are putting your finished artwork in some kind of a, I know you said you, you'll give it to the subject themselves. But do you also, is this like a gallery project that you've been working on or putting it towards like a portfolio, or is there like a public facing version of this? [00:23:34] Aunia Kahn: You know, the one thing that I was thinking about doing, because doing, I thought about doing a gallery show, but since the final products aren't currently with me, I mean, I could do digital versions, but one of the things I definitely wanted to focus on is to create a book about it. And to put these portraits of these different people. Of course, some of them have different stories. So I mean, not everybody does, right? Like, or maybe nobody, or maybe some of the people don't want to share their story. But sometimes I have in random picked people who have had stories, like I had a submission where one of the people lost their sister and I actually didn't understand that the person had passed away. I actually thought it was a submission of herself because there was no information and she was randomly chosen and come to find out she had passed away, I believe in 2019, by falling asleep at the wheel of a car. And so when I posted that portrait, we tried to focus on the advocacy aspects of it. [00:24:36] So that's one of the things I'm really trying to focus on and trying to figure out, like how can I incorporate that into a book or into something in the end that people can acquire, but also recognize that, you know, some people's stories don't want to be told, but maybe their faces are important like for us to look at that person, recognize that there are human beings. They're a part of our world and you know, maybe their story is their story, but other people have stories that are, that are public. So that's kind of what I'm thinking. I'm not sure about, I'm always have something that, you know, I want to do like big, like no, do something huge, but I also want to make sure that there's a lot of integrity to it. And that there's a lot of, like, it's not about fanning who I am or, or promotion of myself. It's really for me to like heal and connect. So how can I do that? How could I offer something to the community where it is affordable or, you know, those, all those kinds of things that you, you think about in that aspect? Cause it's just different, you know, it's a different kind of situation and it humbles me. It really humbles me to meet so many different people across the world and all different walks of life. [00:25:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really powerful. So I know before we started recording, you had mentioned also having opportunities to speak at colleges and universities. So I'm guessing that being a public speaker is part of your repertoire of extensive skills. So I'd love to hear more about that. [00:26:11] Aunia Kahn: Oh, for sure. I absolutely adore public speaking and in the same breath, I absolutely hate it because everybody does. I don't care if you're good at it or not. There is this level of fear that comes with it. " Am I going to mess up, you know, am I going to stumble over my words? Do I have, you know, a fly on my head?" I don't know that that feeling of strangeness to it. And it's the biggest fear. Like people would, people would rather die. Like there's like psychology that says people would rather die than public speak. Like that's how big the fear is for public speaking. So I thought I'd share that if anybody thinks about it and has nervous nervousness around it, I absolutely love going out and doing it. And I talk about various different topic matters, which is a lot of fun. So over the years I have done things like at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, where I have been a part of their mental health outreach project. So creating art and speaking on a panel there. I do things to encourage artists. So, you know, do community support like in Eugene, Oregon, working with Lane Arts Council, where I've been on panels as well. I have gone to numerous places to talk about my background in challenging things in my, in my younger years like bullying and challenging upbringing. So I've talked in various psychology classes, like abnormal psychology and general psychology classes about those kinds of things and, you know, discussing bullying and what it does to people and, and discussing what childhood trauma can do and how it actually affects your immune system. So, those kinds of things. [00:27:55] And then of course, like mentorship. So I'm working on a local mentorship right now with Lane Arts Council, where I'm working with high school students and we're doing projects in graphic design to see if they might be interested in doing that for future. So that's really fun. So it's just, it's really I think the, the overall arching aspect of what I like to do is really just inspire people and help them to work through challenges or work through kind of where they want to go with it. I think that's really just what I love doing and I wish I could do it more. Of course COVID has changed that for me, but also has brought different opportunities with Zoom, especially since it is hard for me with my disease to go places. Prior to COVID, it was very challenging, but I would, I would push myself because I really loved it so much. It's just something, it's just something that feels really natural to me. And I think the feedback that I get afterwards always feels like it gives me confirmation that I'm in the right space. And I think that's kind of where I, I sit with it, but it's always about inspiration of some sort and I like to talk. So that's the other thing. I just do. Ever since I was little it's like my, my report cards used to say she's an A student, but she won't shut up. Stop talking to her. Then the kids next to her, I'm like, I'm just helping them with their homework. Stop it. Oh. [00:29:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. It's fantastic. [00:29:24] Aunia Kahn: It's inbred. It's inbred in me. [00:29:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Right, right. No, that is wonderful. I love that. Well, I'm sure that you have moments that kind of stick out in your memory, but I always love to hear about, you know, things that just really made an impact on you, whether you were viewing or participating in someone else's art or whether you watched them witness something of yours, but just this like thing that you go, man, I have to tuck this away because this is important. This is something to remember about this encounter with art. [00:29:57] Aunia Kahn: I think, I think encounters with art for me, I, it really, you know, I think because I've, I was a gallerist. At one point I ran a gallery and also being an artist myself, where I've shown in museums and galleries and things like that, where I've been in the professional aspects of art. The one thing that always sticks to me is when somebody says to me like, "who's your favorite artist?" I think we always kind of want to go to these specific people. And I always say "children" because they're just not-- they don't have any reservation about their creativity. They just do the thing. And obviously being a gallerist for a period of time, it was important for me to judge artwork that was high quality that would keep my business open that I could sell. I would always integrate other people into it though, that I knew that couldn't, or didn't have opportunities, marginalized groups of people I would always invite that are people who've never shown or whatever. But the reason I bring that up is I think really the experience of art for me is just being able to be open and non-judgmental. [00:31:04] Like there's so many people that are like, "that's ugly" or "you, you don't know how to draw this," or there's so much hate around what's good and what's bad art. And I understand that there's a professional aspect of it where we can judge it on its merit. We can judge it on its quality. But I also feel from a guttural experience where I'm not somebody who ever came into this because I wanted to be where I am today. I was not like, I'm going to be an artist. You know, I'm going to have 350,000 people follow me on Facebook and I'm going to be amazing. Like, no, like that's not at all why I did it. I did it because I needed to survive. I did it because it felt good to. And that was even when I was a kid, I did it as a survival technique. Creativity was this way for me to stay connected, to stay grounded, to stay healthy, to work through challenges. And I really feel that art is like that and that we need to lose judgment of it. [00:31:59] And you can roll your eyes at, you know, Rothko and go "that's not art," but really, I know people who've cried in front of a Rothko. And if people don't know what Rothko is, it's just, go look it up. I'm not going to explain it. And you'll understand what I'm saying. It's, it's just really simple. And people are like, "oh, that's not art." It's like, art is art. Art is a form of creativity. It doesn't matter what it is. I don't care if you're sewing buttons on shirts. I don't, I don't care what you're doing, if you're gardening. The idea of creating something or doing something with our hands, the idea of being a maker, the idea of all of that is just, I just feel like it's so-- and I have a hard time with judgment and I'm really big about like, let's not judge, let's just be, let's just enjoy, let people, let people do what they want to do. Like why do we always have to be so judgmental? You know, I get it in the industry. There's a reason to be judgmental because there is a professionalism in certain aspects of showing in a gallery. I get that galleries can't just go, "well, we're just going to show whoever, because we're not going to get our bills paid then." [00:33:04] But overall the general aspect of creativity, the general aspect of human, the human condition to create from, you know, centuries ago is just a soul. And that's the thing I always try to remember in every aspect. And that's why I'm able to kind of like move into some other thing, because it's like, I don't want to just be known for one thing, because that makes me feel good about myself. I was like, no, I want to be known for somebody who's willing to take risks, who's willing to try and actually almost destroy my career because I'm willing to be vulnerable and actually show my face. You know, I do that a lot on my Facebook page where I show things I totally screwed up because I want people to not see a curated version of me. I want us to realize we're all human and creativity is his soul. And so I'm preaching, but it's so important to me. Like it's so important for me to nurture that. And, and everybody that I know. [00:34:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I love that. And yes, I think you went into professor mode and I adore it. No, that was perfect and so inspirational. And, fully, fully agree with you. And I love how you kind of, you know-- I think this is an important distinction-- I love the way that you, you talked about it in that, you know, art can be so many different things. There's so many different people and it doesn't have to be judged. I mean, it's just, there's a place, there's a lot of place for that. And there is a place when you're paying bills based off of the art where, you know, a certain level of professionalism needs to come into play, but I like the fact that you separated them and they're both valid. I think that's such an important thing is, you know, sometimes we talk about how, "oh, you can't call yourself an artist unless you've sold your work" or something like that. And it's like, "well, no, you know, you are an artist." I think humans are inherently creative and it just depends on the outlet you choose to express that. [00:35:06] Aunia Kahn: Absolutely. [00:35:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And you kind of already answered my first question, but I'll let you elaborate it anyway just in case that you want to add to it, because a lot of what you had just said was sort of answering it, but do you mind if I ask you a couple of my favorite questions? [00:35:23] Aunia Kahn: Yeah, of course. [00:35:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. [00:35:24] Aunia Kahn: I told you I like to talk! [00:35:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Very true. Okay. So, and again, you can choose to elaborate it or just say, you know what, I think I've covered it, but the first one is how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:35:38] Aunia Kahn: I love it. So, you know, art, art is whatever it wants to be. And I, I'm really in love with all aspects of creativity. There's so many things that I'm sure that even people that are listening to that don't recognize as art or things that are going on that people aren't seeing, performance art being one of them, the collage community. I mean, there's just so many different types of art and it can be whatever it can be, whatever it wants to be, whatever you want to call art. If I want to put a, a rock on my desk and put a little hair clip on top of it, and I want to call it a sculpture, like, that's what I feel art is. I feel art is really anything you want it to be and anybody can be outside and go, yeah, that's a hair clip in a rock. Like that's not art, you know? And that's fine. Like, that's fine. But what we feel is it, how, how are we expressing ourselves? And if that makes me feel something, it's putting that hair clip on that rock does something for me, that's all that it really matters because art is really not about the viewer. It's more about the person doing it. Now, I know there's plenty of people who create art as you know for social justice and political reasons. Like I get that, like, it is more for the viewer. Like I get it. And maybe the people are doing it or having a really great experience around it as well. [00:37:04] But when I think of art, I think about the core aspects of how is the person creating it, feeling about it? What are they getting from it? And that is really all that should matter to an artist. First of course, there could be other layers, like an onion on top of it, of how they want to take that out into the world. And if they want to take it out into the world, because there's a lot of people out there who are doing art that nobody even knows exists. Like my partner is also a gallery artist. And over the last year, he's decided he's not doing public art anymore. He's-- not public art, like, you know, public art in public places, but putting his art into galleries. And he has been doing a really private study of his own work and totally changed his style as well. And there's plenty of artists out there that we'll never see, we'll never get to experience, but it's all about the experience for ourselves while we're creating the work. [00:38:00] Even if we're creating it just for commerce. And that's fine too. If you want to be an artist and you want to create it for commerce and you know what people like, and you know how to sell it, good for you. You know your reason behind it, it doesn't make it any less art than somebody who's creating something for galleries or creating something, you know, just for themselves or maybe even for their parent or their best friend. So that's kind of what art is to me, the experience of creating something. What it does, how, how we experience it, and then the decision of how we're going to take that further if we want to take it further. [00:38:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that definition. Perfect. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:38:45] Aunia Kahn: The most important role of an artist is to not worry about what everybody thinks. The most important role of an artist is to do what they want to do in, in themselves, what feels right for them and to not cater to anybody else. Unless of course they're catering for a reason, like I said you know, a minute ago, like, you know, I want to sell my work and I know this kind of stuff sells, and this is what I'm creating, because I know I can make a dollar and pay my bills. That's great. You know, but I-- the role of an artist is to be who they want to-- I think the role of anybody, I think the role of an artist is the role of anybody, really, to be who you want to be without explaining yourself. Of course, unless you're harming people, that's a whole other thing, but, you know, be who you want to be, express how you want to express, live how you want to live, without the expectations and pressures of society and other people. That's how I feel artists and people not should-- cause I don't like the word should-- but would benefit in living life, being free, free of, free of all of that, to just be what you want to be, do what you want to do. Say what you want to say. [00:40:02] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah. That's so important. That's absolutely so important. Okay. [00:40:08] Aunia Kahn: Yeah. You know, we're pack animals. When we get rejected, there is a, there a, a visceral deep primal feeling that we're going to die. You know, when we are not accepted by the group and people feel bad, you know, feel bad about that. Like, oh, well I feel rejected. I shouldn't feel this way. It's like, no, there's actually a primal reason that we stay in packs or we stay in groups or we need community. So it's really hard for people to step against that, push against that and being willing to risk being rejected. Cause there's a lot more, there's a lot, it's a lot deeper than people believe it to be, right? [00:40:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. No, that makes sense. And I think that, that, that's nice to think about because it allows you to give yourself some grace too, when you're like, oh, I shouldn't feel this way. Well, there's a very natural reason you feel this way and that's okay. And you know, we can also choose to move beyond it, but it is okay. Yeah. Okay. And my third question, my final question is, and I'll kind of define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's program notes or a title, or the inspiration, just something to give people a little bit of background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context so it's left solely up to the viewer to decide what they will. [00:41:40] Aunia Kahn: I think that's a really great question. I really do. I think that-- kind of backing onto what I said, I think it's whatever. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like it's just like, whatever the artist wants to do. And however they want it to be. I mean, there's so many artists out there who will put stuff out there and people are like, "what does that mean?" And they're like, "I don't know. You tell me what it means. Like it's not for me to tell you." And then there's other artists out there who are willing to write elaborate stories about why they created a piece. And I think it's really left to the artists to decide how they want to present that because really in a world of putting art out there, it doesn't matter if you put context behind it or you do not put context behind it. People are going to digest that work in their own way. We look through life in our own lens, from our own experiences, our own cultural biases are, how our family structure is, where we live. All of these things give us a lens to view things through and doesn't matter if somebody puts context to something or not. The people who are going to consume it are going to consume it the way they're going to consume it. So there's almost no way to really guarantee it by putting context to something that it's going to land the way that you want it to. So it's, I think it's just being open as an artist to go, like, "do I want to add context and do I not want to add context, but I have to understand if I don't add context that people can feel into it and pretty much add anything to it." But on the other side, if I do add context, the same thing's going to happen. You know, it's the same thing. People are going to judge it. So I think it's really up to them. [00:43:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Great. I agree. I love that answer. Well, my goodness, you are so incredibly inspiring and I just love hearing your stories and, and just all the wonderful things that you bring to the world. I think the way that you have chosen to produce art, the way that you've chosen to live your life and to bring this beauty and inspiration to the world is just fantastic. And I feel like I'm just kind of repeating myself cause I'm really inspired. [00:43:54] Aunia Kahn: I love that, though. That's really sweet and I feel the same about you. I feel, you know, that your questions and, and the way that you conduct what you do is very genuine and inspiring as well. It's, it's very helpful. And I think a lot of people get value from what you do. [00:44:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Well, and I know there are going to be lots of our listeners who are super interested in what you do. And I'm curious if there's a way that they can connect with you, either through websites, social media, whatever you're comfortable sharing. I know that we'd love to follow your journey, maybe listen to your podcast. [00:44:29] Aunia Kahn: Great. So you can find me with my art on auniakahn.com, A U N I A K H A N.com. I am on all social media, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, I'm very active there with the people that I engage with. I love engaging with my followers and supporters. If you guys are interested in my graphic design work, it's Auxilium. A U X I L I U M house spelled in German, H A U S.com. And that's pretty much, you can find me anywhere just by putting my name in. [00:45:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Thank you. Well, again, of course thank you so very much for being here. I really appreciate your time today and just excited to share your artwork and your love and passion for life with the world. So thank you so much for that. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you'd share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:45:39] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:45:49] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Phillip Andrew Bennett Low! Phil is a writer, storyteller, and playwright, who actively participates in Fringe Festivals across the United States. He shares stories from his artistic journey, including sage advice for those who don't feel ready to dive in, along with memories that really stand out to him as moments that matter. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is of Phil!)    Get in touch with Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: https://www.maximumverbosityonline.org/ Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 66 - Phillip Andrew Bennett Low [00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12] Roman: All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful. [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And Artfully Told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, a fellow Fringe Festival producer. I'm always so thrilled to meet and chat with fellow Fringe producers, because there's just such this cool community and comradery. And I just, I'm so thrilled that you're here. So today I have Phillip Andrew Bennett Low as my guest. He is a writer, storyteller and playwright. And thank you so much for joining me, Phil. I'm so excited to have you here. [00:02:48] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Hey, thanks so much for having me. [00:02:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I would love it. If you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started in your artistic pursuits and go from there. [00:03:01] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, sure, absolutely. I'm, I'm one of those guys in show business who's done a little bit of everything at some point or another, but I'm probably best known as a storyteller, as one of those guys who tours the Fringe circuit and does one- man shows. I've been doing this for a pretty long time. I'm, I was one of those kids, I was one of those kids who sort of knew he wanted to be a writer right away. I didn't have the, the soul seeking, hand ringing angst about that, that a lot of people in our generation did, but the form of that has changed a lot. And frequently over the years, but I always sort of knew I wanted to put words together in front of an audience. [00:03:45] And then as a teenager, I fell into the world of community theater and I was one of the people who wasn't smart enough to quit. So I just, you know, kept going and going and and yeah, eventually I ended up on the Fringe circuit. I was writing plays for a while. I fell backwards into doing a storytelling show, which took off and then I did more. And then I toured and you know, I, I wish I had some sort of like, you know, conversion story, some like Damascian revelation where like I hated art, and then one day I, I, I learned that it was great. I've been a convert from early on. [00:04:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. I love it. Well, okay. So, so many questions popped into my mind immediately when you're just doing the intro. So I love it. The first thing is, can you explain the difference to our audience that might not know actually, including myself, kind of how you differentiate between sort of a one- man show versus a storytelling show? Is it-- because they're kind of separate, it sounded like the way that you were describing it and I may have misinterpreted, but. [00:04:51] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So I I can not answer that question without making a lot of people angry, but I'm game to give it a try anyway. [00:04:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Great. [00:05:00] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: That storytelling is one of those disciplines where people are very protective of the definitions that they form of it. I favor a very broad one. I sort of feel like if you walk onto a stage by yourself and use words to tell a story, I'm comfortable calling you a storyteller. And I get that that encompasses some standup comics and slam poets. And I'm totally okay with that. I'm, I'm happy with that door being wide open, but yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's a lot of different ways to draw circles around that. I mean, people who do monologues as a specific character. There's people who jump out and act out a bunch of different characters. There's the people who tell a story in a more traditional way from sort of a third- person omniscient point of view. And I am, I am just wholly uninterested in building walls up between those things and creating a definition that's going to block people out of it. I think if you call yourself a storyteller, and if your audience would call you a storyteller, I am, I am perfectly comfortable with that being flung towards anyone who finds it useful. [00:06:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's helpful. Cause it's, it's just, you know, one of those, one of those things-- not being a theater person, super appreciative, love it, but not being in that genre myself-- I've noticed that, you know, it there often is it sort of a distinction, like storytellers talk about being a storyteller and this is a storytelling show or whatever, versus like I'm doing a one man production and it's, and it almost seems like they're two separate things, right? Yeah. Okay. That's helpful. Thanks. I like, I like it. I like the idea of it being more inclusive of a more broad range of people. [00:06:47] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah. You've, you've, you've mentioned you have a dance background, right? [00:06:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. [00:06:51] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So you're, you're, you're perfectly familiar with people getting sort of weirdly dogmatic about where to, where to build those barriers and definitions over what they do. [00:07:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. I think the safest thing is probably to label yourself as a dancer, but, you know, so that you don't get into too many of the genre wars, but yeah. Yeah, and then, okay, so you mentioned doing Fringe quite a bit. How did you first learn about Fringe as a, as an organization, as a whole and what made you dive in? [00:07:25] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh man. It's, it's a sad story. I was, you know, I was one of those, those guys where I was just writing plays and writing plays and just blind submitting them to theater after theater, you know, going through the drama, the source book with a red pen and, you know, building up a big stack of rejection letters. And I, it was back in the days when news groups were a thing. You know, for the young ins listening, that's like Reddit before there was Reddit, but it was me just throwing out this pleading, "I'm writing all this stuff and I just want to get it in front of an audience. How can I do it?" And someone responding, "Well, there's this thing called the Fringe." And you know, me doing lots of Google because Google was a thing. And yeah, and me just sort of diving into and falling down that rabbit hole. The 2004 Minnesota Fringe was my first Fringe Festival. [00:08:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Okay, perfect. And then are, is this something that you do on a more full-time basis as, you know, they do the Fringe circuit or is this like a seasonal kind of thing for you to do Fringe Festivals? And I know everything looks a little different these days, but let's say, back in the day when it was in person in the, in the before times. [00:08:40] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yes, I was one of those guys doing the circuit, although that's slowed down recently .I'm a stay at home dad. So traveling has new challenges reached in that for me, but I definitely still try to get out to a couple of festivals a year when those festivals happen. Although now I'm, I'm streaming to a bunch of different festivals. So in a way that door's weirdly half open again. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, I am totally a circuit guy. If I could afford to live on the circuit full-time I 100%. [00:09:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I've met a few of those people who do it literally full-time, although I'd have to catch up with them now, but it's just so amazing to me. They'll just live out of this cool camper like thing and just travel around and Fringe, Fringe Festival it up. So that's fun. Well, very cool. Well, okay. So you've mentioned being a dad. What, how has that informed your work? Has that changed anything about the way that you create? [00:09:39] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I have a lot less time for it. It's definitely-- I dunno. I think I, I think it's made me a lot more efficient. I have a lot less time to work, but I also, I waste a lot less time than I used to. When I have time, I use it. And yeah, I've definitely had to get used to having a toddler running under foot while I'm rehearsing for things. He's grown used to it. There was one time I was doing a, you know, a comedy monologue that involved me shrieking a lot into a microphone and he burst into tears when I rehearsed it. So we've had to have some conversations about like what it means when Daddy's doing a shows. [00:10:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh yes. Oh my word. Yeah. Wouldn't have thought about that, but that makes complete sense. So yeah, so now you are-- have you finished the production portion of your upcoming show that I know is at least, well, it is not only debuting at the Kansas City Fringe Festival, but other Fringe Festivals as well. But have you finished that production? Are you still in the works? [00:10:45] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I, I have a complete recording of it. I have lots of post-production to do in terms of editing and, you know, making it make sense and be relevant for the festival I'm doing it at, but you know, the fun creative stuff is done now. It's, you know, slugging towards the finish. [00:11:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Do you do all your own editing yourself? [00:11:06] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Again I, I would love to have the kind of expendable income to hire someone else to do all that at the less fun parts of the job. But it's still a one man band right now. [00:11:19] Lindsey Dinneen: I understand. I understand. Well, we can only keep keep dreaming and shooting for those goals, yeah? One day I'll have my own editor. And until then, it's me doing it all. I, I get that. It's all good, though. Well, that's exciting. So yeah, so this year you're going to be premiering-- this is, this a brand, this is a brand new show for you. Is that correct? [00:11:43] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I've done it once before. I did it for ,I did it online for the Minnesota Fringe back in 2020 as a, as a live stream. [00:11:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow. Okay. Nice. And so can you tell us a little bit, maybe more about what the show is about and maybe even your creative process in developing it? [00:12:03] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, yeah, totally. It's, the title is "On the Concept of Irony with No Reference to Socrates." And it's a, it's sort of a comic horror anthology. It's a collection of different stories that are, you know, about dark and terrible things happening to people in a way that is hopefully funny is the best way I can think of describing. This is the perfect time for it, right? But yeah, it's, I mean, generally the way these anthology shows come together for me as I sit down with a binder full of, well, what's everything I've written in the past year and what's the connecting theme and there always is one. And it, it was a very dark show because it's been a very dark year. So I think that's how that emerged. [00:12:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I mean, I can understand that. And so this has a political bent as well, I would, if that's, is that correct? Based on what I know from you describing it earlier? [00:13:03] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, I I'd say that's fair. Yeah. It's yeah. There's usually a little bit of a political bent to everything I do, although a little bit more to this one. Like there's some, you know, it's yeah. It's, it's really hard to describe --part of this is because these are all sort of short horror stories that revolve around a twist. So it's hard to talk about them without revealing, you know, and here's the punchline, but like it is stuff --like one of the stories is about a comedian waking up in this post-apocalyptic dystopian future and trying to pick up his career where he left off and, you know, one of them is about the sort of a Lovecraft parody about a scholar being driven mad by his new Bischon puppy, you know, it's, it's stuff like that. [00:13:51] Lindsey Dinneen: That's fantastic. Okay. Yeah. I know you can't give us, you know, the full synopsis, which is fair. Yeah. Okay. So sort of, yeah, gathering what you've kind of created throughout the year and then, and then coming together and with this theme, I think that's really cool. So what are some other themes that you've tackled in the past that have sort of just, again, emerged based on what was happening in the world or what was happening in your life? I'm just curious about some of your former work as well. [00:14:20] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh yeah. That's a really good question. There's a, I'm trying to think of my previous anthology shows. I, I hadn't. Probably my first was a horror collection called "Fear and Trembling" that-- another very bleak one. I don't have a lot of super uplifting shows. I, I wish I was one of those guys. I wish I can count the number of shows I've written with like a quote unquote happy ending, probably on one hand. It's, I did one called" Concept of Anxiety" that was largely SciFi and largely sort of an examination of time and memory and mortality will be the biggest thing of just you know, I think, I think I'm the first writer to really ever tackle the question of dealing with their own mortalities. I'm, I'm quipping. I'm pretty sure I'm not. [00:15:08] Lindsey Dinneen: So you mentioned these as anthology shows specifically. So you would create that as, as say a separate category then. It's just like, what else would be, what else have you done, I suppose, that would be a different? Just because again, this is, this is new to me, I'm sure it's new to some of our listeners-- as far as like, sort of within theater, you have these different, you know what I mean, different kinds of genres or different styles or whatever. I just, I'm just very curious to learn. [00:15:36] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Totally, totally. I mean-- I, and yeah, I've definitely done one man shows that revolve around a single story. The last show that I took to Kansas City in the before times was called " Get Thee Behind Me, Santa: An Inexcusably, Filthy Children's Time-travel Farce for Adults Only." [00:15:53] Lindsey Dinneen: You believe in long titles [00:15:54] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: And cumbersome language, funny. So if you don't, my shows will probably be a slog. [00:16:01] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I love it. I just have to tease you because I'm like your title this year is long and that's even longer. I love it. [00:16:08] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: But yeah, the premise of that one, it was, it was a time travel farce in which Jesus and Santa which places and create a new timeline. And it's the efforts of various characters to try to restore the original timeline. And yeah, so that's certainly one of the silliest things I've ever written. That's probably one of the five happy endings. [00:16:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Very good. Okay. Awesome. That, that is, that sounds fantastic. I I feel like I need to see that. Oh man. Okay. So now, I'm also curious because I, I would imagine that the genre, so to speak, of horror is quite broad in that it could be everything from, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but everything from like scary stories, but that are like scary, you know, like, you know, campfire stories that aren't bad- bad versus like, you know, so like to the extreme, and I wouldn't even know that because I don't watch it. It's like, where do you kind of fall in the spectrum of what horror could be as far as your stories? Like would I be terrified is really what I'm asking? [00:17:17] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, I, I, I definitely write a pretty wide range of stuff. This particular show is definitely going for the blackly comic vein. So I don't know that there's anything particularly terrifying in them so much as unsettling or sickening, in again, hopefully funny ways. Like I have definitely written some stuff, stories that reach for the-- hopefully this year I will be releasing a written my third book, a horror collection, that has a wider range of stuff in it. In this one, yeah, I'm definitely hoping-- it, it's always tough with something like horror to say, " I'm hoping people have a good time." But like, it's, this is not, this is not a show that's about giving you nightmares. This is a show about making an audience uncomfortable in hopefully different ways. [00:18:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so, okay. Well that, that helps because I can deal with that. I just don't like to be terrified. So is it uncomfortable is, is doable, but I'm curious, is it so that you can inspire your audience to think differently about a subject or to act differently, or is it simply uncomfort, discomfort for discomfort's sake? [00:18:36] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So I'm, I'm definitely not a missionary writer. I'm the, I know I write a lot of political material, but I'm not a guy who really believes in audiences going to come see one of my shows and scream, "The scales have fallen from my eyes," and convert to my ideology. But I, I do think if what I write serves the function, I'd probably call it something like reverse gaslighting in terms of, I want people to come to see one of my shows and go, "Oh, okay. I'm not crazy. Someone else does think everything else is crazy too." [00:19:12] Lindsey Dinneen: So also kind of hoping then to-- well, and I'm extrapolating, so correct me if I'm wrong-- but sort of bringing awareness to maybe the darker side of, of experiences that we've all sort of had, but we think are like solely unique to us of sort of, "Oh, nobody else thinks this way or something like that." Okay. [00:19:35] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I think that's totally fair. [00:19:38] Lindsey Dinneen: All right. Deal. Very good. Well, you know, you, you mentioned not that having this like huge transformative story, but you've obviously been very brave in going after, you know, your passions and your dreams. I mean that, that's not easy and that shouldn't be like glossed over, right? I, I feel so I'm, I'm curious what kind of advice you might have for somebody who is interested in trying to get their work out there, but maybe feels super intimidated or isn't quite as like, "I'm just going to go for it and see what happens." You know what I mean? Like somebody who's a little more hesitant, what would your advice be. [00:20:17] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, I, I wish I had something more encouraging to say then, you know, stop procrastinating. Like there, there really is a point at which you can, you can think about this all you want. You can deconstruct this all you want. You can rewrite this all you want, but sooner or later, you've, you've just got to get something in front of other people even if, even if it's at an open mic or a reading or, or a live streaming on Twitch or anything. You've, you've, you have to take that step to getting in front, getting it in front of another human being. I think that's-- because that's, that's really the first step. That's when you're going to learn very quickly, whether what you're doing is working or not, and what's not working about it. [00:21:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think I love that advice. I think you're absolutely correct. You know, just if anyone's listening to this and interested in an opportunity to get their work out there, you know, Fringe Festivals are the perfect way to do that, I think. I don't know how you feel, Phil, but what's great about them is that they are unjuried and uncensored. And so, you know, for developing an audience and getting real honest feedback, it's a really good way to do it at an affordable rate, I think. What do you think? [00:21:35] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm obviously I'm a convert. I've, I've devoted a not insignificant portion of my adult life to Fringe Festivals. So I'm, I'm not going to take any sort of counterpoint to Fringe Festivals being a great, fantastic thing. But yeah, I, I just, I also feel like this advice is so much more discouraging in the middle of our current situation. Just go out, go to a show, get in front of an audience, or it's like, no, nobody can do that right now. [00:22:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. But like you said, there are virtual ways to do so. And you know, you can really start small and just get a few people's feedback. I mean, it doesn't have to be like, you know, a worldwide debut, it can be literally just a couple of people who are willing to give you that feedback. So, yeah, no, I think, I think you're spot on and I, I would like to imagine that we'll get back to live performances soon. [00:22:26] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I'm hopeful. I think I'm more, I'm more pessimistic then a lot of our colleagues. I think, I think we've still got a ways to go, but I'm, I do see light at the end of the tunnel. So I'm enthusiastic about that. [00:22:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. And that's, that's fair for sure. Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, your life has looked different recently. You talked about, you know, having a toddler and obviously that changes the way that you work a little bit, well, a lot, I'm sure. And then also there's COVID, which messed everybody up. But do you think that, you know, over the last year obviously wrote a show that was darker in nature, but like, what were the things that stood out to you that, that were productive, that were interesting developments in the art world or the theater world? [00:23:18] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, for me. This has been sort of a boon for me in the way, 'cause it threw me out of my comfort zone in terms of I'm one of those guys that really dove onto the grenade of live streaming. I've been trying to produce a couple of shows a month and I've really been challenging myself to find ways to use the medium, like to not just stand up and, and perform one of my one- man shows to a webcam, but trying to figure out ways, okay, this is, this is a legit new, medium. What are, what are things I can do? I'm working on commissioning new music for a couple of different shows. I have, the show I'm doing for Kansas City Fringe, it involves me performing against like animated backgrounds and things like that that changed behind me as the scenes change and as I'm talking about different events in the story. So I've, yeah, I've really been pushing myself to try to find new ways to use new media. [00:24:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And I totally relate to you going out of your comfort zone. But yeah, it's, it's been an interesting not to overuse the word, pivoting, but you know, it's been an interesting, pivoting year. I'll put it that way. [00:24:31] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So I did a show on election night that was just me. It was me reading favorite historical texts from about a 5,000 year period around different sort of political movements. And, but yeah, it was, it was me reading for five hours straight, and there is no way in a million years I would do this in a live theater and expect an audience to stick around for it. But like via a live stream system, like I'm basically a radio station, you know, people can tune in and out. They can play me in the background while they do something else. It's, you know, it's, it's not something I would ever do in an in-person performance, but it's something I was really excited about doing online. So I've been trying to change my thinking in that way. [00:25:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's super cool. What a unique idea, I love it. Yeah. And that makes total sense. Yeah, you're right. No audience would probably stay for five hours. I don't even know if we can get them to stay for two sometimes, but you know, that's awesome. I love it. Well, I'm sure that there are many moments that probably stand out to you, you know, impactful when it comes to the arts, but I'm curious. Do you have any specific stories that come to mind either witnessing somebody witness your art or you witnessing somebody else's art that was like, "I've got to remember this moment. This is important." [00:25:58] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh man. There's so many. And oh, I feel like so few of them are stories like, there was a, I was a huge fan of a theater in Minneapolis. They were this Leacock based company that chose to set the stakes in Minneapolis, for whatever reason. They just had lots of really brilliant movement, clowning, poetic stuff. Or I really like nothing I've seen before or since. But again, if I try to describe a single moment, it's, it's tricky to do, and I've certainly, I've had those moments in my own work, you know, where you, 'cause again, it's, it's very easy in our profession to sort of fall into our own heads and to find ourselves floundering with a sense of, "Well, am I just screaming into a void? Does anyone responding to this at all?" And then you, you do get those moments of you know, people who come out. And you know, I, I had a 10 minute preview I did as part of a showcase in a small town in Minnesota, where someone just came up to me afterwards with tears streaming down their face. And I mean, that's something you remember as a performer, because that is not a performance that I was even particularly invested in. You know, it was sort of annoying and something I had to do, but you know, it, the work did the work. [00:27:20] And you know, I, I, I can think of a couple of things, like there was a time in Indianapolis. I do a fair amount of political comedy, which is often challenging, has grown more challenging in recent years. But I remember one show I did in Indianapolis, where there was a group of hecklers who came with the intention of sabotaging the show. But about 15 minutes into it, I won them over and then they invited me out for drinks afterwards. So like, that's definitely something I hold as a badge of honor. [00:27:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. That's huge. Congrats. I love that story. I think that must be one of the rarest occurrences of something like that happening. Kudos to you. , [00:28:04] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: But I also think a lot of it with political comedy is people expect you, and, and certainly my stage persona is more sort of brash and confrontational than I am in real life. I'm a very conflict averse person in real life. But also that in most of these shows, I really, really make an effort to make myself vulnerable that I'm not presenting myself as a, you know, I don't lurch onto the stage as a guy who has all the answers. I'm, I'm awkward and clumsy and a screw up and I, I talk about my experiences in the world of politics and activism, and and I think that self-deprecation tends to disarm people. But it's, it's, it's totally opposed to our instinct because of this, you know, this is a world that's so venomous that our instinct is defensiveness and it's very hard to, to switch that off, you know? [00:29:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I do. And I, yes, I agree with you. But I, I really liked that approach and I think that that's so helpful. It's so interesting. I'm actually, I just finished reading a book called "Dare to Lead" by Brene Brown, which is fantastic if anyone needs a good read, but she talks so much about vulnerability and, and when you're vulnerable and willing to be, yeah use self deprecating humor or whatever, then it opens up conversations that wouldn't either take place or would be awkward or controversial or whatever, but like, if you can start from a place of vulnerability and be like, "This is me, this is where I'm coming from." Then all of a sudden you can open up these doors. So I love that. I love that that's what you do. [00:29:49] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, I should also throw out the caution to anyone hoping to follow in these footsteps that it does not work a hundred percent of the time. There are definitely times I walk out and say, "I'm a terrible person." And the audience's fully prepared to agree with me. [00:30:01] Lindsey Dinneen: And you're like, "Okay, here we go." Oh, no, that's funny. Well, to be an artist is to be brave, yeah? It's part of the deal. Oh my goodness. Well, this is awesome. So I'm sure that there are listeners who will want to connect with you and, you know, watch your shows and follow what you're doing. So is there a way for them to do that and how can we stay in touch? [00:30:28] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, there, there totally is. Easiest way is my website, which is maximumverbosityonline.org. You mentioned that I had a thing for a unwieldy titles and there it is. That's my website. Yeah. We also have a Facebook page, which is updated significantly less. That website is your best hope if you want to know what's going on. [00:30:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I can relate. Social media is one of those things I'm like, okay, here we go. Got to remember to keep up with it. [00:30:58] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh yeah. And if, if you're trying to avoid the venom social media is not a place you want to spend a lot of your time. [00:31:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Fair, totally fair. Well, that's awesome. Thank you for that. Yes. You know, I, I just had to tease you about those titles, but I, I do love a good, long title. So anyway. Perfect. Well, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you sharing your stories and your insights. And I do have a couple of questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that. [00:31:26] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Yeah, of course. Has anyone ever said no? Have you ever? [00:31:30] Lindsey Dinneen: No one has ever said no. I did have a guy one time who was like, "What happens if I do say no?" And I was like, "Well, I, I, you know, if you did I'd respect that, I would find it ironic, but yes, you can say no." Okay. Well, anyway, the first question is how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:31:52] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Oh, man. Okay. Again, I'm I'm the broad definitions guy. So I mean the, the cop-out answer would be to just say, I'd accept whatever definition anyone wants to give, but trying to be a little more thoughtful about it. How do I define art? I would say, I would say it takes a, there has to be an element of artifice for me. In, and even saying this as a storyteller who stands on stage telling personal stories, I think there does have to be an element of someone presenting themselves to someone else and presenting something created, something that there is an acknowledgement between the person presenting it and the person receiving it, that there is an element of unreality to this. That's pretty vague, but that's the first thing that's sprang into my head. So I think I'll stick with it. [00:32:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I like it. Okay, perfect. And then my second question is what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:32:58] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: So my instinctive response to that is leeriness, because I, first of all, I obviously do believe that there is an important role for artists. I'm a professional artist. It's, it's something I've devoted a huge portion of my life to. It's my passion. I am always a little fearful that there's a danger because we've all known that sort of the artist with the sort of messianic complex, you know, the idea that I'm creating something because I believe it's important. And this approach generally creates art that is not that enjoyable. And I'm, I'm resistant to that. That said, I do believe that art is important, but I, I tend to flinch from that as a starting place for making something. But if I had to say, what is the role of art? Again, the first thing that leaps into my mind is, it's to provide a kind of fun house mirror. It's to provide a reflection of reality that distorts it in some way or shifts our focus onto a specific aspect of it. Does that, does that work? [00:34:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, that definitely works. I love that description. Absolutely. Never heard it put quite like that. And I think it's fabulous. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title, show notes, just the inspiration behind it. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context so it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will. [00:34:53] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Cool. So the question is basically, how do I feel about sort of letting people backstage of the process? Is that, am I reading that correctly? [00:35:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. I, yes. I think so. Yeah. Context versus not having contexts. So either yeah knowing a little bit about what the artist was intending or experiencing during the creation versus like none of that. [00:35:18] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Right, right. So it's sort of like a, does a magician explaining his trick, ruin the trick? [00:35:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. [00:35:24] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Sort of thing. Or, or, or it's also like a death of the author thing, right? Where should we just, once something is created, should we ignore the intention behind it because it's sort of out there in the world? Or, yeah. Okay. That's actually a really heady question. I can, my instinct, so I have two totally conflicting instincts about this. My first is that as a writer, I have sort of a caution about exposing too much about the process if only because I think, first of all, it's, it's very easy to romanticize the process. And I think so much of it is, is really kind of tedious. It's, you know, I, I mean, it's, you know, there's a huge portion of it that's just work, that's just problem solving. That's just looking at a problem and rewriting any sort of worry that exposing people too much to that process causes it to lose some of the romance. That said I am also one of those guys who totally digs into, if I find a writer or an artist or a work of art I like, I will dig into as much information I can possibly find about who the artist was, how it was created, what might've been going on in their head. [00:36:45] So there's, there is definitely an element of hypocrisy in me wanting to be very guarded about my own process, but being very deeply interested in others. My, my cop-out answer is that I think it's up to the individual art. No, no, no, no. I'm going to push myself a little harder, 'cause my thing, like, I've just been going down my whole Kafka obsession again, where like half of his words he explicitly asked to be destroyed upon his death and his executor refused to do this and published it anyway. And I feel a great sense of debt to his executor for not following his last wishes. The, if I have to give an answer, I think more information is not bad. Believing that you have all the information is bad. I think that's my, my statement on the matter. [00:37:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Final answer. [00:37:47] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: I think so. [00:37:48] Lindsey Dinneen: You know what? I really liked that. I like that you, yeah, push yourself to explore a little bit further, but, and I think, I think that's a good way to put it too, because sure, you like to have that information available to you, but you still have the choice, whether or not you really want to explore it or not. I mean, you could totally just view the work on its own and not care, like not read the program, not whatever, but having it there is nice for those of us who might want to know, learn a little bit more. So I kind of like where you went with that. Yeah, very good. 10 out of 10. Okay. Well, you know, first of all, again, Phil, thank you so very much for joining me tonight. This has been so much fun. I really appreciate it. And I, I love your unique perspective on storytelling in the arts and well in your, in your approach to making it broader, I think that's really important and, you know, kudos to you for doing what you do. But I would highly encourage those of you who are listening to also check out Phil's website and this upcoming show, because obviously it's going to be exciting, maybe uncomfortable, but in a good way. So yes, highly encourage you to do that. And just thank you so much, Phil, again. This has been a really fantastic chat and I really appreciate it. So thanks. [00:39:12] Phillip Andrew Bennett Low: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun. [00:39:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. Yes. All right. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:39:30] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:39:38] Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Will Blaine! He is an artist as well as the author and illustrator of the short story series, "Wildly Inappropriate Stories for Children," which feature common scenarios of adventures kids get themselves in, such a getting lost at a beach, or getting covered in jam while making themselves breakfast. Will's interview is funny, inspirational, and insightful, and he shares about all the twists and turns his artistic journey has taken him so far. (Fun fact: the cover image to this episode is Will's company's logo!)   Get in touch with Will Blaine: www.instagram.com/curiousmindofwill  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 65 - Will Blaine Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Will Blaine. He is an artist as well as the author and illustrator of the short story series, "Wildly Inappropriate Stories for Children," which I am so excited to find out what that means. So I am just delighted to have you here. Will, thank you so much for being here. I definitely appreciate it. Can't wait to chat with you about arts. [00:02:42] Will Blaine: Thank you. It's a pleasure. [00:02:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about your background, maybe what got you involved in art in the first place? A little bit about your life journey, if you're okay with that. [00:02:55] Will Blaine: Yeah, of course. I, I've always been kind of an, an artist and an author. I have always done that since I was a kid and I don't know why, after I break out in my twenties and everything like that, I I don't know. I didn't do it as much, but I always told stories to my, to my daughter. And, and I think this is kind of my-- if anybody knows me, they know this is true about it-- when I read my daughter books. When she was younger, I never actually read the words. I just  made up stories as it went along. And the same went for like games, my daughter to this day, she still gets on me because she goes, "You used to cheat at Candy Land." When she was little, she didn't understand what the rules were, so I just made them up as I went along because she didn't know them anyway. So I was just kind of having fun with her, just time, you know, spending time with my daughter and everything. And she, she was about five years old and she realized that I was not following the rules, when she learned to read and understood how the game works. She's like, "Hey, that's cheating!" And I've never lived it down. So I've always just kind of made up stories and, and liked drawing and, and things like that, pretty much all my life. My grandfather was an artist. And he was mostly doing landscapes and he would draw people's farms and things like that. And I think it probably had a little bit of an influence on me as to what I would like to do when I grew up as, as far as my art is concerned. [00:04:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So kind of having had the opportunity to grow up around it sounds like it was inspiring to you because you liked what you saw and you were like, "Oh, maybe I could do this too." Did he ever have a hand in helping teach you any of, of what he had learned himself? Or did you learn through others? [00:04:26] Will Blaine: Yeah, he didn't really have that much of an influence on me. Though he did, he did give me lessons a few times, but it was mostly, mostly on my own that, that I've been doing this, the artwork. And I think that I, I need a lot more practice for sure that. Very happy with doing what I'm doing. It's just turned out pretty, pretty well. And I, I like it myself, if nobody else does, at least I do. [00:04:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and there's a lot of value to that, for sure. I was talking recently with somebody on the show who was talking about just creating art for art's sake for yourself. And it doesn't have to be shown to anyone. I mean, if it is, that's great, but if it's not, that's fine too. It's just about the process of creating and allowing yourself that outlet and you know, it, it just in the end it's, it's that. That's what matters. [00:05:10] Will Blaine: Yeah. And it's been, it's very therapeutic in many ways too. I mean, it's just, it has a calming effect and, it's a form of expression an outlet that most people don't take advantage of. I think anybody can become an artist really. I mean, just because you don't think that you can draw up a particular thing doesn't mean that you can't draw. You know, I think with a little like practice and some lessons, I think anyone can be a pretty decent artist. [00:05:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I agree. And I think like, I really like what you said about it. It's maybe not so much about that particular thing. So me, for instance, if I were to sit down at a table and look at this bowl of fruit and try to recreate it through a painting, I would fail miserably. And I know that because I've tried and I'm so bad. But if I just sit down and create like whimsical, sort of fun art work that I do paint that's just like my imagination coming to life, I can totally do that, but yeah. Yeah. All about finding the right medium for you, I think. Or the right expression. Yeah. I love that. [00:06:09] Will Blaine: Right. [00:06:10]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. So, okay. I have to find out all the things about your, your book series, because that just sounds like so much fun. So tell me about that. [00:06:19] Will Blaine: Yeah. So the wildly "Wildly Inappropriate Stories for Children" book series is about all of the things that parents do not want their children to do, but all children do invariably. So my first book is called "Vlad and the Vast Beach" is a little boy, about a little boy that runs wanders away from his mother during the day at the beach. The second story of my series is called "Sticky Fingers from Jam." It's about a little boy that wakes up early in the morning and decides to make himself breakfast, and all these are based kind of loosely on my own experiences in life. So "Vlad and the Vast Beach" is based on my experiences going to New York City in the Brighton Beach area. [00:06:56] I don't know if you know anything about Brighton Beach, but Brighton Beach is an area of New York where everything is Russian. All the people are Russian. All the signs are Russian, the restaurants are Russian, the stores are Russian. Everything's Russian.  So my wife and I speak Russian incidentally, so we would, we would go there a few times a year, take a walk along the boardwalk and walk to Coney Island in the evenings. And there would always be people out on the beach, you know, you know, having a good time. And that's where I got the idea for " Vlad and the Vast Beach," having that urban beach setting and having, having Vlad wander off and have a little adventure on his own. [00:07:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Okay. So how many books have you published so far? [00:07:32]Will Blaine:  I've only published two, I've written probably 10 or 12, but I haven't published them. And my first two books are not illustrated. I just put them out there just because most people were, a lot of people were saying, "Hey, I want a copy of this." And I got tired, tired of emailing people. So I put it on Amazon and you know, it's just selling decently, but yeah,  my next story that's coming out is called "The Glorious Gizzard of Roz." It's about a little chicken and it will be fully illustrated. So I look forward to that. That's going to be the first time that I've had a fully illustrated book. [00:08:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Great! That's exciting. And so I'm curious to know, so your background in creating art and drawing and all those kinds of things obviously has prepared you for this now, but you know, it's interesting to me that that has been something that you've kind of developed into an illustrator role. How is, you know, creating just art for you different than creating art for your own story? Do you find yourself just thoroughly enjoying the process? Are you more critical or? [00:08:37] Will Blaine: I think it's, it's more restrictive. Once you write the story and you're writing illustration or drawing illustrations for it, you're limited in scope as to what you're going to draw to some extent, because of the story. You have to follow the storyline. If you're just, you know, get my digital notebook out or something like that and start drawing something, I can draw anything I want to. That's one thing that I really appreciate about art. Anything can be art, it doesn't have to be fancy, or it doesn't have to be a particular thing necessarily. It could just be a series of shapes or colors. And, you know, I mean, not that it is all the time, it's usually I do draw something, but it doesn't have to be. You know, just to have a good balance of light and dark and color and, and, and space is-- there's a lot of beauty in that. [00:09:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I was, oh gosh, I think I was reading something. Oh, what was it? Anyway, the author was talking about how shadows bring out the light and you need the shadows in order to express the light that's that's there too. And how that's just can be such a beautiful metaphor for life. You know, it's not-- yeah, the darkness maybe isn't what we would choose, but it is what gives light it's radiance. And there's, there's beauty in that contrast too. That's cool. [00:09:53]Will Blaine: Something that I noticed lately in some of my art is the use of blank space. What you don't draw, it says a lot more than what you do draw. I've just come to that conclusion more recently in that I've always thought it was kind of ridiculous when people, people said, "Oh, it's on the page already. And it just, it just came to me." That I always thought that was kind of ridiculous. But if you, if you think about it in a way that you look at where the blank spots are as opposed to what is drawn on the page, I liked that, I liked that concept. It's, it seems more valid than anything that I've actually put down with my pen or a stylus or whatever. And I'm, I'm learning to appreciate not having to fill up every little area of the, of the canvas. [00:10:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, I, I am right there with you, I think, especially... So you know, as a, as a dancer and choreographer-- so I've come at it from a little bit of a different artistic perspective-- but I've always believed in the power of stillness, because I think when used well, sort of like your blank space idea, it actually gives a lot more meaning and credence to what's happening in the movement or in the painting or whatever it is because it allows the audience or the, the viewer to take a little bit of a breather and to absorb better. Yeah. [00:11:13] Will Blaine: Yeah. And I think that applies to music also. I don't think we appreciate times in songs where there's nothing happening. You know, not that you want us to listen to total silence obviously, but there has to be an intermittent to the note. There's, there's notes and then there's, there's times in which there aren't many notes. So, you know, those are just as important as the spaces or is it just as important as the sound? [00:11:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, okay. So I know you are also now illustrating coloring books. I'd love to hear more about that too. [00:11:45] Will Blaine: Yeah, I was, it was kind of a shock to me. I didn't know that, that I didn't really plan on doing this, but I was illustrating my second, er, no, it was my first book. I'm going back to "Vlad and the Vast Beach" and I'm going to illustrate it for a future edition. It's going to be fully illustrated, but I was, I was doing some of the drawings and I was developing one of the characters. His name is Carl. He's a seagull. And I had posted it on my Instagram account and I was using this app that allows you to do like a whiteboard animation so people can follow what you're drawing. And, and I got a lot of positive feedback about that. You know, people, people seem to like it. So I started putting a few things on there. So I did a few of those drawings. And then I, I was just doodling one day and in the application and it looked to me like one of those adult coloring books. You see them at the store all the time, you know, for people that they are adults. [00:12:38] And they're a little more complex than just a basic cartoon that you would color as a kid. And this, this art started looking like that. And I was like, you know what? I bet I could write and, and draw an entire coloring book. So I started just tinkering around with different things and, and now I've got 27 drawings toward a coloring book and they're just rich, random shapes. And I don't know what the representations of different things that I think using shapes and, and I don't know. I think it's artistic and, and fun. And I've, I've had people tell me that it's just therapeutic just to watch the whiteboard animations on, on my Instagram account. You know, people just like watching things appear from blank space. You know, it's enjoyable for me. It's something that I think is pretty easy. It allows me to express myself. It's, it is kind of therapeutic for the artist as well as the person that's enjoying. [00:13:34]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. Well, and I know, especially, I think coloring books have gained more popularity lately because, like we were talking about briefly before we even started recording, it's kind of a trend now, even for adults to have coloring books, but you know, it's, it's so fun. It's, it's fun, especially if you don't consider yourself to be a fine artist and you just enjoy kind of coloring in the already  established lines. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm that way. So I mean, I'm curious, from your own experience or your own opinion, why do you think coloring books resonate so well with people as a, as a hobby? [00:14:16] Will Blaine: I think it's, it's kind of like a mindless activity. It doesn't take a lot of effort. And I think, I think it's a way of relaxing. I think it's the same reason why people watch television. You sit there and it just, it takes minimal effort. You don't have to think about anything particularly. And, you know, I, I think when you have, you know, if you use markers or crayons, it doesn't matter. I think that the colors are impactful on your psyche, I think. I work on my, in my day job, I'm a process engineer for a large company. We will build the big trucks and some areas of the factory are very dark and there's not much color. And in other areas of the factory are bright and lit and shiny. And, and I think people are in much better moods typically in the areas that have color, that have light. And I think that's the same with coloring. You have those colors, you have those brightness, it allows you to express yourself if by no other reason or way, by what colors you choose. You can, you can make a coloring sheet a gray dismal mess, or you can make it flourish. [00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you brought up an interesting thing that I'm curious to ask you more about. You know, you mentioned having a day job, and I think there are a lot of us out there that have their day jobs in addition to pursuing their art. What advice do you have for somebody who maybe either feels like they don't have enough time to devote to their art or how, how do you balance that? And what advice do you have for someone who's interested in that? [00:15:50]Will Blaine: I think whatever you choose to do, you have to buy out the time from something else. You know, I I've, I'm basically an efficiency expert at my job, my day job. So I am very much into efficiency type things. So I do, I did a time study on my life and I was looking at things, like how much time do I spend watching television each week? How much time do I spend checking email? How much time do I spend playing a game on my phone? Or how much time do I spend exercising? And I started looking at all these things and I was like, "Wow, is that how I want to spend, spend my life?" You know, if I'm, if I'm sitting down and literally, it's not uncommon for people to watch, you know, five or six hours of television every day. You know, you multiply that times a week and there's your time. You have, you have plenty of time. Yeah, it's just that you have to buy the time out from something else. If you want to spend your life watching television, that's your choice. But if you think that you might want to be an artist, that's, that's your practice time right there too, you know? [00:16:52] And, and anymore, I, for several years now, I don't think I've watched very much television at all. In fact, I don't have, I don't have cable or anything like that. We have like a regular antenna that picks up several stations, but even then I don't watch it that much. I just, for the most part, I think it's kind of boring. I don't really, I couldn't even tell you who is a famous person on television right now. I don't, I just don't know their names. I haven't watched television in that long. So it's a choice. I think people can choose to do what they want to. And I think many people just get sucked into a routine or a rut and you know, they don't make the choice to be an artist or to be an author or to be a musician or a, or a choreographer or whatever. Yeah. We choose how to spend our life and you just have to really do a a gut check and just take a look at your life. Go around with a stopwatch and see how much time you spend doing different activities in your life. You'd be surprised. [00:17:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think that's fantastic advice and really resonates, I'm sure, with a lot of people, because you're right-- it's, it's not that you don't have the time. You just spend it in a different way. So it's just a matter of prioritizing. I mean, what do you want to do with your life? Like you said, do you, do you want to just watch TV? And if so, you know, that's, that's your choice, but if you're trying to carve out time, that's a great place to start. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you talked earlier about, you know, storytelling and making up rules as you go along with your daughter and I'm, I'm curious, how much has your daughter influenced the work that you do as an artist? [00:18:30]Will Blaine: I think that we're very much an influence on each other. In fact, she, she tells me that I resonate in her head all the time, just from different things that I told her growing up and advice that I'd given and things like that. But she also influenced me a great deal as well. You know, it instilled in me a love for reading, for instance. Read her, read her a story every night before she went to bed and I instilled in her a love of reading and really helped along with her education as well. But it also helps you. The more you read, the more you will be able to write. I, I really believe that. And it's the same, same way with art. I think the more that you're involved in activities and, and drawing and, and other artistic expression, I think the more likely the more inspired you'll be, and the more likely you will be. [00:19:19]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So what is the-- and I know this is kind of a far reaching question-- but what does the future look like to you? Are you planning to continue publishing and, you know, creating new books and illustrations and maybe coloring books? Or do you, do you have other things on the horizon as well? [00:19:40] Will Blaine: I, I do. I have, I have so many ideas. It's just, it's not enough life left to accomplish everything, all the ideas that I already have. So yes, I will continue writing. I've, I've got lots of ideas for books. I've I would like to write a book of memoirs of my travels. Like right before the pandemic, I spent a month in Europe, we went to Germany and Switzerland, Italy and Croatia, and really enjoyed ourselves. There's lots of experiences that I've, I'd love to write about, lots of situations I've found myself in, in life that were kind of unique that would, each of those would make a story themselves. And of course, I've got a lot more kid stories that I've already written that I just haven't published yet. And then I've got a lot more to that. I'm currently writing, I think, every, every day that I walk around and I see something, I write a story about it. It's, it's seems like something that I don't know if it comes naturally to me, but it's, it's pretty easy for me and I like doing it. So I think it's something that I'm probably going to continue to, to to write. [00:20:35] My wife and I were at, went to a park several months ago, and we were taking a walk due to the COVID, you know, was trying to keep isolated from, and as well as get our exercise. And we saw this large oak tree that had tipped over and she's, my wife was kind of telling me, I don't know, teasing me a little bit. And she was like, "Do you think you can write a story about that?" You know, 'cause it just says this old oak tree that's leaning over. And I actually did write a story about it. It was called "Gary the Great." It's about a little woodpecker that thinks that he has knocked this tree down and he gets a little bit of arrogance in his, in his life, because he thinks that he's done this great thing, but it's a fun story. And all of my stories always have a lesson at the end of it, too, for kids as well. [00:21:15]Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. That sounds so, so fun. I really-- yes, that, that, that resonates with me. Like those kinds of things. Oh, fantastic. Well, yeah, so I'm sure that, you know, you have tons and tons of stories to share, but I wonder if there are a couple that really stand out to you as either maybe witnessing someone interact with your own art that was really impactful, or you participating in somebody else's art, and it was just this moment to remember because it was impactful? [00:21:51] Will Blaine: I think life experiences are very impactful. And sometimes you don't know how to express them at the time. And I, and I'll, I'll give an example. And my second story is called "Sticky Fingers from Jam." And it's about a little boy that gets up early in the morning and makes himself breakfast. And that was actually inspired by my cousin. So I was raised on a 120 acre farm in, in rural West Virginia. And my chores involve getting up at six o'clock in the morning, going out to the barn and feeding the animals, which involve me walking past my uncle's house. So it was six o'clock in the morning. And my cousin emerged from a cornfield and he was probably three years old at the time, which would have made me around eight or nine years old at the time. And he was completely naked. And he was covered in butter and sugar from head to toe, absolutely covered. And I didn't think anything of it at the time, I thought nothing of it. And he proceeds to tell me that he's made himself breakfast. [00:22:50] And you know, I'm looking back, you know, when I turned like 40 years old, I was thinking to myself about that situation, you know, how you reflect on your life sometimes. And I was thinking to myself, his house must have been covered in sugar, that his parents probably had ants for years. I mean, if you had that much sugar on you, how much did you get all over the kitchen and your bedroom and where, wherever else you walked before you made your way out of the house completely. But, but those, those things are impactful, you know? And sometimes, sometimes you just take, it takes you a while to be able to express those things. So I wasn't, you know, I was, I was well into adulthood before I even thought about that again, those experiences. And at that point, you know, I could look back with the experiences that I've had in my life and what would have happened if it was my child in that situation. And I was able to make a story of, formulate the story out of it and that, that's what creates the art. And not only the, you know, the visions that you have for the work that you're going to do as an artistically, but also the, and the authorship, how you're going to write about it and, and how you're emotionally going to interact with the situation. [00:23:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. Well, I'm sure that there are some of our listeners who are going to be super curious to read those awesome books that you're writing and, you know, follow your artistic journey. Is there a way for them to do that? [00:24:14] Will Blaine: They certainly can. If you want to see what I'm doing just day to day, I typically will post at least once a week on Instagram. It's Curious Mind of Will. That's my company's name. C U R I O U S M I N D. And you can also look for me on Facebook. I just use my personal account as Will Blaine, and I think I have the Curious Mind of Will there as well. I don't post to that as much, but if you want to, if you want to take a look at my books and stuff like that, they're on Amazon. You can, you can look me up. Will Blaine. Just type that in there. And you can type the titles of my two books that I have published so far. That's "Vlad and the Vast Beach," " Sticky Fingers from Jam." Those are the two that are published so far. Coming soon is going to be "The Glorious Gizzard of Roz." [00:24:52] I think that's, this is my favorite book by far, this far. I guarantee you that you won't understand what the story's about until the very last word, even adults. And it's, it makes everything tied together. Yeah. So that's one of the, one of my favorite stories that I've written. And I really, really enjoy reading that to kids. I, I read at story times and different things like that too for, you know, like libraries and things like that. And I really enjoy the reaction when I want to have a, you know, like a Facebook live or a story time or anything like that. The kids, kids love that story. [00:25:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that. Yeah. I'm personally excited to read those books because they sound awesome and I can't wait to continue following what you do 'cause that's right up my alley too. So yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay that. [00:25:46] Will Blaine: Absolutely, let's go.. [00:25:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:25:52]Will Blaine: I think that, that art is tied up in an emotional expression, for me anyway. I think many people do art for different things, but I think it is always tied up with the emotion that you're feeling. It's very, it's very deeply emotional, whatever it is and that's, and that's why I don't think that art has to be anything particular. You don't have to draw a tree or a bush or a person, you know, you can just-- you'll see how the colors blend, and you can see how the shapes go together. You can see what space there is and, you know, whatever you're feeling that day, it affects what you're going to put down on that page. And it that's, that's, that's so fundamental to what art is. I think that defines what it is. [00:26:36]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:26:41]Will Blaine: I know that artists do different things. I think that many artists like to make political statements and, and things like that, but I, I don't think that's the most important rule or role. I think that that artists should do it for themselves primarily. I, I've, I've seen people that are artists that want to become famous. I don't particularly want that myself. I, I mean, I don't, I never desired to be famous. I just like entertaining kids, basically. But I think that a person needs to do it as a, as a way of expressing themselves. That's the most important thing above everything else. [00:27:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then my final question, and I will define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether that's a title or program notes or the inspiration. Versus an artist who does not, who puts their work out into the world and doesn't provide context so it's left solely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they will. [00:27:48] Will Blaine: Well, I going to say that depends. And the reason I say that primarily I liked the, to know what is beyond behind the artist and what they've done. But I've seen a lot of art that I had no idea what it was or who drew it or, or whatever, and I've still liked it. So I think there's room for both, but at personally, I, I prefer to get some background. It helps me to understand what's going on in your mind, and it helps you to help me to understand the emotions behind the art. That's really the fundamental part of it. [00:28:23]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. Well, thank you so very much for being here and chatting art with me, Will, I really appreciate it. I'm very excited about what you're doing and what you're bringing to the world. I think that obviously you bring a lot of fun and joy to kiddos, but also to adults, I'm sure, who are enjoying these stories as well. And I'm excited for the, this new coloring book to emerge and all those different things. So just thank you for sharing your art with the world. I think that's really important and I'm glad you're doing it. And, seriously, thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. [00:29:02] Will Blaine: Yeah. And I enjoy your format too. And I like getting out there and being able to be on, on shows like this, and you're doing a great service for the community and for the world. I, I really appreciate being on here and you're doing a great job. [00:29:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you! I really appreciate that. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I highly encourage you to check out Will's , go onto Amazon, buy those books, follow him on Instagram so you can kind of keep updated with all these new, exciting endeavors that he's embarking on. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this episode with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time. [00:29:43] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:29:53]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Sally Brown! Sally is a feminist, artist, curator, and writer, who strives to always elevate and amplify women artists and their work. She shares about her journey from art reviewer and museum curator to embracing her own unique body print artwork, and what that has taught her about being a mother, and about women in general. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is a photo of Sally!)   Get in touch with Sally Brown: www.instagram.com/sallery_art | https://linktr.ee/sallery_art Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 64 - Sally Brown Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of our Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sally Brown. She is a feminist, artist, curator and writer, and I'm so excited to dive into all the different things that she does and has dabbled in and is proficient in. And I just can't wait to have a conversation about art with you, Sally. So thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it. [00:02:40] Sally Brown: Well, thanks for having me. It's an honor. I'm excited. [00:02:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I would love if you would share maybe a little bit about your background, what got you into all the different, cool things that you're doing and maybe what you're up to these days. [00:02:55] Sally Brown: Yeah. Thank you. Well, it's like, how far back do I go? I was a fashion design major in undergrad before I took a drawing class and fell in love with it and just decided to be an art major. And when I graduated from undergrad though, I thought, "Oh, there's too many artists. I, I don't need to put my, my art out there." So I went into working for the galleries and museums doing fundraising and administration. And I kind of got burnt out. Then I had my babies and I kinda missed, you know, missed making art, missed being in the arts. So I started writing arts reviews for the local paper, and I also started modeling for art classes. Kind of an interesting way to get back into the arts, but that kind of led me to get more confidence to use my voice in an artistic way. And you know, if people don't buy it or see it, it doesn't matter, but I still, I had to create, so I got back into drawing and painting that way around, I dunno, 30. [00:03:53] And I also kind of noticed I felt bad as a mom. Like I felt selfish for taking time to make art and, and in that weird art and I mean, self portraits, you know, some, some nude work and some body prints. And I was feeling like I had to have a reason for that. So I started interviewing women artists about their work and their background. And I found several local in Omaha. This is in Omaha where I'm mostly from, who are making this like unabashedly amazing figurative feminist work. And they were moms or they weren't moms, but they were doing it and they weren't afraid. And that is how I started my blog Les Femmes Folles, which means wild women in French, and I also started curating a series of exhibitions featuring women artists around the body, and in Omaha, and they're very popular. They're still popular. People could hardly get to the door. It was so exciting. So it really kind of boosted my confidence, not only to make my own work and share my voice and, and be okay with that as a mom and as a, as a woman. [00:04:59] And also just looking to other artists, supporting other women artists, and seeing, respecting their voice in all the different ways via curating and my blog and revealing. I ended up having a a local weekly column in the paper about the arts which I greatly enjoyed. And so yeah, I started doing these body prints. I saw Yves Klein's body prints. He's modernist, mid 20th century, who did performances with women. He wore a full black suit and he directed nude women to paint on their bodies and do these body prints. And I knew of his work, but when I saw his work in DC a couple of years ago, maybe like 10 years ago, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I love this, but I have to do it." I have to be the director of the model of the artists. And I want to do it in all colors. Yves Klein did blue. I wanted to do all the colors. So that's when I started my series of body prints, and I integrated my interviews with women artists. And then my body prints. [00:05:58] So I took like excerpts about being a woman artist or being mother artists, and I scripted them on my body prints. And so I did a series of-- my first series was "A Voice" and that was from my first series of interviews. My second series, after my first show, I noticed a lot of people asked me about being a mother and doing it, nude work. And I thought it was interesting because nobody was asking me about the work. They're asking me what my kids think, what, what are their friends think? And they see me nude and all these questions about being a mom, rather than like asking me about the work and my interviews. So my next series was about that. It was called "What Will Her Kids Think?" and I did a lot of research on mother artists and pulled quotes from both mother artists and artists about their moms, and I integrated them into my body prints. [00:06:48] And I also started a collaborative series of drawings with my kids. When they were 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, they would make hundreds of drawings and paintings every week. And I would give some to relatives and I would keep some for keepsakes and I would recycle some. And then I thought, "Well, why don't I just play with it?" So I started doing a series of some portraits on their childhood paintings and drawings, abstract, which I continue today. I still, I use some of their homework and my body prints today are a series inspired by my master's study. My second master's degree is in art history and I focused on feminist artists. So part of the reason that I feature, I attribute feminist artists is so that I can learn about, I'm forcing myself to learn about them 'cause you don't really learn about them in main art history courses. So I've been doing my own research. I'm learning about them and then also put their names in the titles. [00:07:45] So if somebody sees my work and they're like, "Oh, tribute to Hannah Hawkes. Who's that?" they might go look and find out about her. So right now I'm continuing my feminist tribute body prints. I'm also doing some feminist tribute drawings where I have a self portrait and a mini reproduction of a feminist artwork in the background. And I'm also, I just curated a show, Feminist Connect, with 42 international artists work co-curated with Leslie Sotomayer and all of the artwork is inspired by another feminist artist. So that's really kind of a grounding theme throughout all of my writing and curating and artwork. Yeah. So that was a long answer to your question. [00:08:24] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I love it. No, it's great. It's really helpful to, to get some background and, and explore a little bit more about, you know yeah, what led you to what you're doing right now. So I really appreciate that. And I'm, I'm curious because, you know, feminists can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. So I'm wondering how you like to interpret that in terms of yourself being an artist and in terms of the women that you are highlighting and trying to to honor through your work. What, what do you, what does feminist mean to you in that context? [00:08:59] Sally Brown: It means supporting other women. I mean equality, you know, someday at the very base. But to me, feminist artwork is supporting other women and youth and exploring our experiences as women, because we have been marginalized and obliterated from history and art history and our perspectives just haven't been known. So it's so important for women's stories and perspectives to be told. So even like I'll feature artists on my website and in my exhibitions that, you know, consider themselves not a feminist or like, you know, Louise Bourgeois said she never wanted to be looked at as you know a feminist artist. That's okay. I still love Louise Bourgeois. I still-- artists that consider themselves not a feminist 'cause that's, you know, that's their perspective. That's-- but mine is very broad. [00:09:45]When I was in graduate school, I, from my art history degree, I also got a degree in feminist studies and it was so interesting.  The high element of what feminism can mean? It can mean some very extreme things, but I look at it very broadly. I see them, the word "woman" very broadly. People will ask me, you know, for my blog, "Well, I'm nonbinary, can I be on your blog?" And I'm like, oh, I consider women to be very broad. I like to use the word woman, not a lot of people do in feminist theory, but I think that it's an important word because I don't want us to go back to anonymous. And so yeah, I see it very broadly. I see it as lifting women's perspectives up and positively. I'm not a deconstructionist. I'm not a critic. Those, that's great, those feminists who do that. That's, I'm appreciative of that, but that's not, that's not what I do. [00:10:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure! [00:10:42] Sally Brown: If that makes sense. [00:10:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It's, it's helpful to just-- because it's such a broad term, like you were saying, it's, it's nice to have a little bit of context for the work that you're trying to do. And I think that's really cool what you're trying to do in, in elevating women's work, whether or not they consider themselves to be a feminist. I think that's a really admirable thing. It's not, it's not that you're ignoring what they're saying or anything like that. It's just saying that they have a place at the table too. And that's important too. Yeah. Which I really like. So I'm curious because I, I'm not a hundred percent particularly familiar with the work of sort of body prints, I think is what you were referring to. So do you mind explaining a little bit more of sort of the process of that and how that kind of comes together? [00:11:30] Sally Brown: Sure. Yeah, it's, it's a very personal intimate process, but I do document it. I do record it and take pictures. Yeah, so it's as simple as that. I put down a big sheet in my living room and I pick out my paper and I pick out what kind of mood I'm in for the colors. The other day I did pinks and purples and yellows and reds. I was feeling very springy. And I will just paint either with a paint brush or with my hands, paint brush usually, just onto my torso. Most of mine are my torso or my side. And then I'll do just like a pushup, like on the canvas. And it's just more about the abstract image and the, the moment, you know rather than the composition.  The, one of the points is that, you know, women's bodies are so scrutinized and like we're supposed to be a certain way and like all these things and, you know, in society and media. And so one of the ways that I kind of work through that is by abstracting my body. So this is what it looks like, but then you put it, use it as a brush. You put it on paper and it's just this kind of beautiful abstract image. So it's, it's kind of objectifying the body in like a-- I don't know-- an expressive and backwards objectifying way, if that makes any sense. [00:12:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, really cool. Okay. And so, you know, you talked a lot about it, the sort of aspect of motherhood, and it was really intriguing to me and I really think it speaks to our culture. But you know, you, you mentioned that a lot of people were asking you about being a mother and not about the work itself. And I think, again, that that's very indicative of the way our culture sort of is in general towards women. So I'm, I'm curious, you had mentioned, you know, you were, you did a lot of research on, on mothers who were also artists, and I'm wondering what the common themes that emerged were. I mean, what, how did they, how did they interpret it and how did you end up interpreting it? I don't mean it to say it in in terms of reconciling, so to speak, but, but because culture has sort of asked you to reconcile it, I'm curious how you've sort of developed that for yourself. [00:13:49]Sally Brown: Yeah, you kind of just do it. There was a poem that I came across and ah, I think her name was Amy Shanto? It was "mothers cannot become artists because they already are." And that just like totally hit home. Like, that's what it felt like people were saying. That's what I felt like before I was even making art. I'm like, I can't make art, like the kids are my art. And then that's how people responded. So, I mean, Sally Mann, same thing, Alice Neel, like it's just the same story throughout the times. People just did not want mothers to be artists. And I remember in an undergrad, my, my, one of my professors, my favorite professor in fact said, "You cannot be a mother who'd be an artist." This was 1999. So, I mean, it's just all over. You just have to do it. My mentor, Wanda Ewing, was just, she was not a mother, but she was very familiar with people putting her work down or thinking that, you know, you don't have to do art. [00:14:48] I mean, mother artists, yes. But also women artists and women, artists of color in general, like our perspectives are just not out there and it's sometimes surprising and shocking to see them because of the history of our perspectives not being out there. So she just said, "You got to just do it, even if it sits in your basement, even if nobody sees it, you just got to do it." And so that's kind of what I do. I'll get bad comments. Some people don't like it, some don't approve and even in my family and, but it's just like, if I don't do it and then I feel like something's missing. And I think expressing myself is an important thing. I think that everybody needs to express themselves. And I think what I'm, what I'm doing is actually a beautiful. I think the woman's body is, is beautiful. I don't think that's part of my statement and people shouldn't be afraid of it. So I think that what I'm doing, even if it's really small and nobody sees it is important. [00:15:45] I think my kids will see that someday. And what I love is that they're not afraid of it. They have seen my art like forever. They don't question it. I remember one of my kids' friends was over once and they were like, "Why do you, why is there like a painting of a nude woman on your wall?" And like my kid's just like, "I don't know, it's just normal, you know?" So, so yeah, I think it's a good thing and throughout all my research, I pretty much found that it was just the same story. So we just got to keep doing it and people will appreciate it or not just like any other art. But I do think that the, the motherhood perspective is, is so important. And so yeah. [00:16:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And I, and I think that that's just such a, I'm glad that you address it because I think that that is important. And I really do like what you were saying of, you know, it's, it's important to create and even if it just sits in your basement, it's, you've, you've still gotten to participate in that art creation process, which is healing and it's beneficial and it's inspiring. So yeah, kudos to you for, for doing that and, and including your kids too. And, and speaking of that, you had sort of mentioned, you know, including your kids in various artwork projects. And so I'm curious what that has kind of looked like for you and for them and sort of, how has their work influenced your own, maybe? [00:17:07]Sally Brown: Oh yeah. Well, you know, when you're 2, 3, 4, 5, you don't think about what, you know, like, "Oh, it doesn't look like a vase, or it doesn't look like a tree." It's just, you just create, you know? And so that's part of what I love about my body, but it's just about creating, it's just about the process. So that, and then that way it definitely has inspired me not to think so much about, you know, when I make my drawings, "Oh, this doesn't look like whatever," what it really looks, whatever, supposedly it, you know, it looks like. It's just, I'm making it. And that's, that's the important part about it is the expressive point about it. And then also as they've grown, my son loves to draw and he just draws line drawings. They're just like so intricate of these game, these gaming characters, but they're just line drawings and I just love his freedom and his cute little like awkward lines.  [00:18:08] And so it just inspires me to just draw the way I draw and not-- again, not think about whether it, the depiction looks like the photograph or whatever, like it's supposed to quote, quote, supposed to And so yeah, they've inspired me in that way. And they've also helped me with my process. Like they've painted some backgrounds, they've done some like leaf prints with me. You know, they do some hand and feet prints, you know, inspired by my body prints and they'll tell me what they think they look like, which is interesting. So they'll see my body prints and they'll see something completely like, they'll see Mickey Mouse or something, and I'm like, that's so cool. Like, that's just the point. Like, I, I, I want you to see whatever you see. And so, yeah, they've, they've gotten really excited, yeah, about art. But sadly now they've almost gotten, art museum-ed out. Now it's like, "Oh, another art museum." That's okay. That's how I was too. [00:19:06] Lindsey Dinneen: They'll come back around. It's all right. Yeah, I was the same way as a kid too. I mean, you could only take in so much, but then as an adult, it's fun to come back and see those things again and go, "Oh, okay." Yeah. I have a lot more-- I can, I can stand still for longer periods of time. We'll put it that way back. Oh, well, I love that. I love that, you know, it's freedom of expression. It's freedom of interpretation that you're gleaning from your kiddos and how that's, you know, helped you to maybe be a little bit freer in your own expression and interpretation. That's cool. That's really cool. And so, you know, I know that you also have, like, you mentioned having a column for a while, and so I'm curious, what all were you, were you critiquing, were you just talking about different art around the city or whatever? Or what, what was that column for you? [00:19:58]Sally Brown: Yeah, it was all of that. I had mixed media, which was just kind of like, I don't know --the gossip art column, which was really fun. So I would say like, who's doing what or whatever. And then I also did critical reviews, which I continue to do. But yeah, I, The Reader was the name of the, the newspaper and that really launched me into interest, deeper interests which got me into my graduate studies and art history. And now I continue to do reviews, just freelance or independently, mostly of women, artists, or feminists art exhibits, or books of art by women. And so I really enjoy that. I enjoy the newspaper. The newspaper is my favorite because it's more loose and like kitschy and, you know, it's fast, so you gotta be fast. But when I do my academic critical reviews, it's a lot slower and more serious, but it's important. So important. So I do both. [00:20:54] Then I do a little bit for my blog too. I started this series of, I turned 40 this year-- last year now-- but so I've been looking at feminist artists and what they did during their 40th year. So I've done a few blog posts on that. That's kind of fun. But yeah, I love, I love all aspects of art, like curating, writing and, and making. So my day job is, it's curating for the university here. So it's, it's a lot, but yet I love, I love it all. Like it all keeps me balanced. I can do one thing for a few minutes or whatever, and then switch to the other mode. [00:21:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I love it too, because I think that speaks to a lot of artists' lives of sort of having their, their hands in a lot of different areas and sort of yeah, being immersed in art in many different ways and kind of switching from mode to mode to mode, but it's, it's all great because you're doing what you love, which is exciting. So, yeah. Excellent. Well, I'm curious if there are any stories in particular that kind of stand out to you as either somebody witnessing artwork that you created, or you witnessing somebody else's art, and you just had this moment that was inspirational or, or defining or something. It was just like a moment to remember. [00:22:16]Sally Brown: Yeah, for sure. I feel like a lot of people would say this, but so one of the focuses of my master's thesis was Judy Chicago's "The Dinner Party." And it actually wasn't going to be. My focus was just going to be on feminist artists in general. But my one of my professors was like, "Well, you're going to New York to see "The Dinner Party," you know, this monumental feminist art. And I'm like, "Oh, but everybody knows 'The Dinner Party.'" Like whatever. When I went to see it the first time though, it was, it was amazing. When you go through art museums and history museums your whole life and much, my parents drove me to, and I've always gotten to do, and you see art by men, and then you see history of wars and political figures who are men. It's just so amazing to walk into an exhibit that is fully dedicated to women throughout Western history. [00:23:13] And so it's this big dinner table triangle. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's in the Brooklyn museum now. It was made '76 to '79 by 400 volunteers. Judy Chicago led it and there's 39 place settings each dedicated to a woman in Western history and they're themed. There's ceramic plates and then there's a runner underneath each one. And then along with them, there is the floor, which has 999 more names of women in Western history. And then outside of there-- I could go on about this-- but basically there's the history of these women on panels and this history I did not know. Like it was amazing. I was, I was whatever, 30-- I'm 40 now-- and first time seeing this, I was like, "How do I not know this history?" And it was just mind blowing and it was beautiful and it was, it's all darkly lit. She hasn't darkly lit and the, the background of the table is mirrors. So you can see yourself to infinity and it's just, it's really inspiring. And of course there's critical feminist issues with it, but, but I, what I take away is the impact of women and how we need to recognize it and how it hasn't been recognized. So that was a huge part of inspiration moment of my artistic life. [00:24:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, how cool. And yeah, that is something that I definitely would love to see in person, because I'm sure that the pictures do not do it justice as to the impact, you know, like most artwork, I suppose, but something like that-- that, and just the magnitude and, yeah, so much that we don't know that we're not taught that it's important. So. Very, very cool. Well, this has been awesome. And I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you, maybe view some of your own artwork, follow your journey, read your blog. Is there a way for them to do that? [00:25:15]Sally Brown: Yeah, I would say the easiest is my Instagram, which is @sallery_art. So it's S A L L E R Y underscore art. So that's the best way. And then it has my link tree with all of my different, you know, websites and whatnot. So thank you so much. This has been really fun. [00:25:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course! Good. Yes. And I do encourage everyone to check out her artwork. It's, it's exciting. It's unique. And it's also really inspiring and, and elevating, and I liked that, so, yes, absolutely. And I do like to ask my guests the same three questions if you're up for that. [00:25:53] Sally Brown: Sure. [00:25:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. Well, first of all how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:25:59]Sally Brown: My kids would be so annoyed. Art is everything. Art is the way to see.  I mean, if I was going to get particular, I would say it's something that is, it's expressed. But if you look at things in different ways, anything can be art. I don't know. [00:26:14]Lindsey Dinneen: No, no, of course. Okay. And then, what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:26:21]Sally Brown: I think to express themselves and make their voices heard because we're, we're documenting life in a creative way for history. So just continuing to do it and using their voice in different ways is just, is the most important role for them. So, yeah, just doing it. [00:26:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. It kind of ties into your earlier theme of creating even just for your own sake. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and includes some context behind it, whether that's a title or show notes, or the inspiration, just something to give the audience a little bit of that context. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide the context. So it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will. [00:27:20]Sally Brown: Oh, I'm totally all about inclusive, because that's what brings people who aren't knowledgeable. That's what makes them scared is if they go into this white cube gallery and there's no context, they're like, "I don't get this. I don't, what is this? Like this isn't for me." But if you include like your title, like a little context, a little story, and that's what's very important about women artists as well, and documenting their, their story and their life to go along with their art. So I'm all about inclusive art, very much so. Accessibility to the max. [00:27:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I appreciate that, you know, because I, I agree too, because I think sometimes it can be super intimidating, especially if you haven't had the chance to experience a lot of art or you hadn't grown up around art. So I, I appreciate that you're wanting to include people who might not otherwise know how to appreciate it, or even try, you know? Well, again, thank you so very much, Sally, for being here today and for sharing your own journey and what you're up to these days and the way that you're empowering women and, and your own kiddos and, and all these different avenues that you express yourself through your art. I know you're making the world a better place, and I appreciate that. Thank you. [00:28:39] Sally Brown: Aw, you are! Thank you for your wonderful work. Thank you, Lindsey. [00:28:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. No, this is, this is my happy place. I love chatting art with people, so. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, definitely check out Sally's work, and we will catch you next time. [00:29:05] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:29:14]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Patricia Karen Gagic! Patricia has had an absolutely amazing journey, getting to learn from some of the most highly-acclaimed artists in the world, including Monsieur Dragic, who mentored her in France for years. Now, she combines her love of fine arts and education in mindfulness to create Karmic Art Experiences for her clients. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is a photo of Karen herself!)   Get in touch with Patricia Karen Gagic: www.patriciakarengagic.com | www.inspiredtoberewired.com | patgagic@gmail.com  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview     Episode 63 - Patricia Karen Gagic Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, Patricia Karen Gagic. She is an international contemporary artist, an author, and the chief visionary officer of a nonprofit charity. And she has such an amazing background and wealth of experience in the arts. So I'm just so thrilled to be able to talk art with her today. Thank you so much for being here, Patricia. [00:02:43] Patricia Karen Gagic: Oh, hi Lindsey. Oh my goodness. I'm thrilled to be here with you as well. Thank you so much. Amazing opportunity to talk art. [00:02:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! And I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about yourself, maybe how you got started and, and take us from there. [00:03:00]Patricia Karen Gagic: Sure. So I've been a always curious person and when I was very young, I thought, "Well, I want to be a fashion designer." And I think I was probably about three years old when I started actually drawing Elizabethan ball gowns. I had never seen one. I have no idea. My family could never figure out how I was drawing these, but there was something inside of me, just this intuitiveness that I just love drawing. And then that catapulted into, you know, me pen in hand wanting to do something different. But as I went through school, I realized I needed to have a career and my family really wanted me to do something more astounding with my life, even though I thought, "You know, having being an artist would be amazing." But you remember the old saying, "artists are poor," so it's not really going to be the way you're going to manage your life. [00:03:58] So I, I did actually become involved in finance and I joined the bank and by the ripe old age of 25, I was probably one of the first female bank managers here in Canada. And I ruled with, you know, 92 employees and I sort of was climbing the ivory tower, but at the same time, I was still doing these more surrealistic ink drawings, sort of the Salvador Dali style. And, and then my world just, you know, kept going and going until I finally said, "You know, I want to be a painter." And that's the moment that I really fell in love with art, with actually with painting. So that, that's sort of the beginning of the journey. [00:04:46]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Yeah. And so then you, so you had your career in finance, but you obviously still had this passion and wanting to continue doing art. So what led you to your next step in the journey? [00:05:00] Patricia Karen Gagic: Well, I thought, you know, not having any lessons in art, you know, in painting, that I should probably, yeah-- get myself involved in, you know, an art school. So there, we do have something here. It was McMaster University, and I enrolled myself in a program. And then the, there was the Burlington Cultural Center. And I had an opportunity to be actually taught a master program with an artist who is quite revered in Canada. His name is Tony Urquhart, and he was also teaching at the University of Guelph. So he had invited me one summer to come out, and as they were doing different tutorials and what, I was really feeling, you know, this, this place that I felt very comfortable in. [00:05:48] And then it was not until 1999 when my husband decided that we should take a trip to France, and that was really the beginning of my, my most synchronistic part of my life. In order, there was a little apartment called the Sunflower Apartment and they always had an ad in the newspaper and my husband called the ad and he said, "You know, we'd like to go and stay." The gentleman who owned the home said, "Sure. Have your wife come and see me, pick up the keys, I'll share everything about it." So we did. And I, I went to his home and, "Oh my goodness." It was an art gallery basically. He had three floors of amazing paintings and said, "Would you like a tour?" I said, "Yes!" [00:06:32] I see this painting up on the wall. And it's this very abstract white horse, which would've never really, you know, attracted me because my brain was more in the Jackson Pollock style. And but I looked at the name on the painting and it said, D R A G I C. And that's and I said, "Oh, Dragic," because it's a Serbian name, and this gentleman looked at me and he said, "No, no, no, no, no, this is Dragic, and he's in the top 10 percentile and a wonderful artist." And in that moment, I don't know why, but he said, "You know, and it's about three or four hours away from where you will be." and I went, "Okay, I want to meet this guy." Why I even thought that I have no idea, but it was just that auspicious moment. [00:07:18] So we managed to get ourselves to France and made the phone call to le Monsieur Dragic, and he said no. He said, "No, I'm not seeing anybody. I'm not interested." And I was devastated and I went, "Oh my goodness. I've come all the way here. Now I'm on a mission. I definitely want to meet this, this man, this artist." And then finally we called back and he agreed. And we went to a little fifth century village in Provence. And when we met him, I sat in complete, absolute disbelief because when we got up into his Italia, he was showing me pictures of himself with, you know, very famous artists. And he had also exhibited in some of the most beautiful galleries in in the south of France in Avignon, as well as Grenoble and with Christo and Picasso. And he knew all of these people and he, he was part of that top 10%. [00:08:22]So I, I was realizing that this man had made an entire life, his whole entire career to flawlessly dedicated, you know, to art and the study of art. And that inspired me. So as we were leaving back to our car, he said, and he does not speak English, only French and Serbian. So thank goodness I had some high school French, but my husband speaks Serbian, so we were able to communicate quite easily. And he said, he said three things. He said, "What does she want? Does she want fame? Does she want money? Or does she want the truth?" And you know, in that moment, the response of course was, "The truth." And he invited me to come back six months later for a week, and this is back in 1999. [00:09:10] And he said, "But you're going to have to learn to speak some better French so we can really communicate and talk about the art." So I spent 38 hours over the course of those few months with a tutor trying to upgrade my French. And and then we arrived and that was the beginning of a long, 20 plus year relationship. I've been back and forth to France many, many, many, many times each year studying with him. And just could not even begin to tell you how precious that decision was and how, you know, accepting he was of me. [00:09:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. What an amazing story. I love the way that, oh my goodness, all came together, but I just-- kudos to you for being so bold and brave and really putting yourself out there. I mean, that's, that's fantastic, but I, you know, my goodness just to see that painting and then go, I need to meet this person and, and be persistent about it and then. Wow. Good for you. And then what an amazing opportunity to learn from somebody like that. I mean, my jaw just sort of dropped when I, you were talking about, you know, all of the, basically his circle of influence and friends. I mean, you're learning from masters. Like how cool is that? [00:10:36] Patricia Karen Gagic: Well, the, the shock for me was that he, who he was, you know, at that time, you know, very revered and I thought to myself, there's just no way that I even, why should I fit in? And yet, you know, it's that very precise feeling that we just have, that intuition, and it sits in our gut that if I'm here, I meant to be here. And that's for me that karmic piece. And I also realized after, you know, the first week I was with him, he had never actually taken anyone under his wing. Bozart had invited him in Paris and other schools to teach and he had refused. He's actually quite an eccentric person. Of course he would have to be. [00:11:23] And in that period of time, I was so humbled, but he really took me to a place of like tabula rasa, where it was like the blank slate. He basically said to me, "Patricia, you know, you might think you know what you know about art," but he said, "in order for me to actually give you the truth," he said, "and, and, and share all of this with you, you have to go to zero. And if you can't do that, if you're going to fight me along the way, it's not going to work." So I, no matter what anyone can say, when you are in front of a master at this level, you close your eyes and you say, "You got it." And I did that. I, I really forgot everything I knew. And what he did was he started teaching with the Matisse palette, which he had been taught himself. And this Mattise pallet, he had manipulated. So basically he had created his own version of it. [00:12:27] But in order-- this is sort of interesting-- it was always Rembrandt paint oil is how we started and we never spoke about the colors. Everything was done by the number. So for example, if he wanted me to combine two particular colors, we would always say just the name, the number. So it'd be 231 and 156, or 568 and 231 and 107. So I, I had to really memorize the pallet by virtue of the numbers. And then we were able to, you know, to work. So it was, it was quite a challenge. I do recall going there one particular time, and he had an opening at one of the galleries and we went to the opening and then I spent a few days in the Italia with him and he had given me pastels. And I had never used pastels before. And he gave me a book where it was one of his books that was filled with his own, his own work. [00:13:24] And he pointed to one of the paintings and he said, "Here are six crayons, I'm going to show you quickly how to use them with a razor blade and, and whatnot." And he said, "and here's the paper. And tomorrow I want you to bring me your version of this particular piece." I thought I was going to die. I mean, he gave me six crayons and I looked at all the colors and I thought there's no way under the sun. So I, we finished our work with him that day. And I started working and it was probably four or four-thirty in the morning when I finished the piece. [00:13:59] I had pastels all over the table, the floor, it was a mess and we rolled it up and that morning went back to the Itali around nine o'clock and he opened it and looked at it and he closed it and put it aside. And I thought, "Oh my goodness," like I've done a terrible job. And I was really, really kind of upset because he didn't say anything. And at the end of the week, he actually gave it back to me and he handed it to me with basically saying he was so shocked that he couldn't tell the difference between his and mine. And, and that's when he made the decision that he wanted to continue teaching me. And then he asked me, that was probably the next trip there to write a --was either-- I can't remember how many thousand words or 2000 words could have been more-- in French. [00:14:55] And he wanted me to write exactly what I felt art was about to give my own dissertation and, but I had to do it in French. And again, I stayed up the whole time. And I wrote every conceivable thing. I had dictionaries, I had whatever translation like couldn't think of in French, I was making up words and then I took it into him and of course he read it. And, but we, we are the very, very best of friends. And I just, you know, I just feel this beyond, just beyond a blessing in life. And I think about in 2012 or 13, he invited me to have an exhibition with him. The two of us, it was the only time I've exhibited with him in Seoul. And we had yeah, it was just one of those, you know, perfect moments in your life when you have exhibited with the master. [00:15:52]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Those are incredible stories. Ah, I'm just enthralled. Oh my goodness. Okay. So I'm just really interested because you mentioned that, you know, he's never done this before and conceivably, maybe not since either. So I'm wondering, what about it, what about you was, do you think, was that he saw this spark that he was like, "yes, she has what it takes. Or she has the dedication." I mean, obviously you had already gone out of your way to meet him, but I'm just so curious because, you know, and obviously you have, you had talent, but I'm just wondering, like what spark was it that he saw, do you think? [00:16:37] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. [00:16:38]Lindsey Dinneen:  I need to teach her. [00:16:40] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. In fact, that's a really great question because about two years ago, of course, you know, I've, I have, I have won many awards for my work, and I've been recognized by different organizations and, and one of them had asked me to provide do I have anything like a, you know, a curation or anything from Monsieur Dragic? And I said, "No, I don't." So I called him and I said, "Would you mind writing something about, about me, about my work?" And he said, "Of course." So he did. And I, it, it, it was quite long. And the translation was basically that he had never met anybody who was, as they said, first of all, humble, but that had such a desire. And my passion exceeded everything around me. And he said just the way I, my temperament was one thing. He said, "you're, you're very wise and calm," but mostly he said "you were, you were so in love with the knowledge, just wanting to know what all the, you know, the bits and pieces of, of life are actually about that." [00:17:51] He said it was a trigger for him in his own life. He changed his style once or twice while over the past few years. And he said he was, he was actually influenced by my career. And he also said, because I was female, believe it or not, he did have a, a group of psychiatrists that were also painters from Germany that used to come every year, every two years that he would host a few days and give them some support and lessons, but he'd never taken on one individual at any point in time for the full length. Pretty much half my life. So I think I was pretty humbled by, by his words, but more than anything, it was this passion. He said he, he felt it. And he, as the first trip and the second trip and the third trip and the fourth trip went by, I didn't provoke him. I, I didn't push any buttons. I was a sponge and that's what really, I think, fueled even more because then he started to introduce me-- oh, this is a good story. You'll like this, Lindsey. [00:18:56] One, one of the visits he wanted me to meet Pierre Humbert. So in the south of France, of course, there's this click of, you know, the, the older artists now, many of them were famous at that time, but as history has gone on, they lose the profound. They don't always stay in that highest rank because there's new artists. There's gallery changes, you know, the history and the south of France changed in the art world, but certain people make certain choices. And he invited me to meet Pierre Humbert. Pierre Humbert was actually one of the gentlemen who, who entertained some of the other artists there, including Picasso. [00:19:40] So when we went to his home, which was out in the, you know, in the beautiful Passage, we had a lunch and he said, "I want you to sit in this particular chair." And I did. And they were, he had another couple of artists with him that came to meet me as well. I was a bit of a novelty to everybody. And I remember sitting in the chair and the first thing Pierre Humbert says to me, he goes-- and they do not speak English. And he said, "Ah, Patricia," he said, "You know, this is  Picasso's chair. This is where his bum would sit and no one sits in this chair and you can sit now and you can feel all of the energy from Monsieur Picasso, but also open your eyes and look at the land." And it's, I mean, it is the Passage, it's rolling hills. And he said, "Do you see this particular, you know, area?" And I said, "Yes." And he goes, "This is wherePicasso those saw the blue nude, it was the rolling hills of this, this land that was the impetus for him. He, the inspiration." [00:20:50] And so they sat and shared many stories that, you know, I can't repeat them because I don't remember them. And I, you know, they were just of the moment, a lot of jokes and songs and things that they would do. And then I went into the Italia of Pierre Humbert. And again, you're standing in it, you're standing in the source of history where A) it's a privilege, because I know there are probably, if there's a handful of people on the planet who have ever been stepped into those rare, iconic, you know, caves where all the genius exists, it's like I was in the most perfect think tank. I, I couldn't, I had to pinch myself to even imagine I was the person standing here. And that, you know, sharing that story just kind of makes me again, think about the influences. [00:21:39] And I became really interested through Dragic's eyes with an artist by the name of Xiao Qi. And Xiao Qi passed away in 2013. He was born in Beijing and decided that he wanted to become an artist probably by the age of 10, but he went to Paris. And he studied in Paris and he actually traveled with some of the more, very, very like Pierre Soulages. He was friends with Pierre Soulages and he traveled to New York with him in the fifties or sixties. And that's when he changed from sort of a calligraphy to this abstract calligraphic work, and I, for the very first time that I ever saw his work, I was insanely smitten. I mean, I it's like you walked into, I could walk into his, his painting into the, into the words. So I've spent the last 20 years studying most of  work and trying myself to develop my style based on that influence. And that's where I'm at right now. [00:22:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is just the coolest thing. I, I'm just so inspired and in love with these stories that just, wow. Wow. What amazing opportunities.  I'm so intrigued and, by sort of his methods and how he was teaching you and sort of, you know, even the stories, like 24 hour challenges or whatever you want to call them. But you know, like here's this, this somewhat impossible task, go do it. And you figured out a way to do that. And it's interesting to me, you know, you were, you were talking about in his own words, he was talking about, he appreciated your passion, your humility and everything. I'm sure so much of that is so, so much of that is the willingness on your part to also be a blank slate, because I think on some level that could have been challenging. You know, you, you've come in with a certain set of experience, but you were so willing to-- you put that aside just to learn from a master. And so, you know, also kudos to you because that, I mean, I guess that is humility, but, you know, but that could be hard. So I think that that's really commendable that you were just like... [00:24:00] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. You know, Lindsey, we, we all have ego. I mean, that's, that's who we are. And unless, you know, you, you come to this world ego-less, which I don't think that's the case for, for us as humans. When you're dealing with somebody who has such a high IQ and his, his ability, I mean, he's a master chess player that he's, he's beyond well-read, speaks many languages, has studied every single artist living, dead. And, you know, just as an example, one day we were in the Italia, and he said, "Let's just do something a little bit different." And he, he opened up a book and I don't remember whose painting it was.  And he chose one portion of the painting that was sort of like a white area, like a white creamy area. [00:24:54] And he said, "You know, you know how simple things look when you, when you examine them?" I said, "Yes." And he goes, "Let's try and create that color." And I said, "Like off the painting?" And he goes, "Yeah," he says, "You have the palette." He said, "Go to it." Lindsey, if you ever wanted to shoot your self sometimes... I spent from nine o'clock until noon. And I, he came in once or twice and it was "Zero," you know? And that's how he would speak to me. "Zero. No, Patricia." I was like, "Are you kidding me?" I've got titanium white. I've got to think white. I'm adding 568. I've got this. And I'm, I'm just going out of my mind, could not, I could not figure out how to create that particular color in that painting. We went to lunch, came back after two o'clock because we always take two hour lunches, and said, "Keep going." [00:25:50] So I did. And it had to have been like from two to five o'clock. And I could not, I could not make that color. And I was every combination, a little bit more of this, a little bit more of that, a little less of this, a drop of black. It did not matter. I was, I was caught. And then at the end of that, he said to me, he goes, "You know," he said the greatest lesson that one has to learn is the true appreciation for the palette and the depth by which any, any artist chooses to make it their life effort. And we became, you know, the appreciation for every painting, for every aspect of every painting for the colors. You know, when you look at some of the paintings, you know, again, I'm in, this is the simple part of this. Like you look at Roscoe or you look at, you know, where there's only one or two, it appears that there are just a very, you know, one color painting. And yet in order for them to have created that particular color, the complexity, the combination, or the recipe of, of that is it's, it is genius. [00:27:03] And knowing what belongs to what. So I think, you know, the frustrations that I-- and I have had many frustrations, of course you'd have to over the course of all these years. But the appreciation I have, I think is what endured and the challenges that were put in front of me opened my eyes, I think, to, to really appreciating every single person who makes the attempt or, or decides that they want to examine, study, become historians of art. It's just a passion beyond a passion for those that do it. And, you know, I guess, yes, I, I feel I have an extraordinary heritage, you know, lineage by being part of a Dragic's world. [00:27:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's just so cool. And goodness gracious. Yes. I can imagine wanting to rip your hair out in that moment of trying to figure out, oh my gosh, this magic combination. Oh jeez. [00:28:11] Patricia Karen Gagic: The craziness about it is that it's it's in every single painting that you look at. There's always going to be from, from any-- it does not matter-- there will always be a color that, you know, you think you can just repeat that. And he proved to me, you know, your, until you become a true master, your eyes will trick you. [00:28:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's powerful. Oh my goodness. Okay. So your, your, background is just amazingly rich and, and just fantastic. And I'm sure your future trajectory is going to be exactly the same, as far as their richness of it. So I'm just curious, what are you up to now and sort of, where do you envision your art going next? [00:28:57] Patricia Karen Gagic: Well, we probably could have another hour conversation. I have this very unique past. I became extremely interested over the course of, you know, the last 30 or 40 years with studying different things. And that includes, oh, everything from physics, from different religions, from Buddhism. Just looking at the iconography of, of different things and I studied at the University of Toronto Applied Mindfulness and Transformative Mindfulness while I was still doing all of this with my art and, and business. And I felt that the mindfulness piece in the meditation was, was really, really important and vital to the methodology of my work. And then I, I decided to create something that I could offer people, sort of like a program, and I'm only doing sort of beta testing right now. I, I've done a few and they've turned out quite lovely. [00:30:00] It's not really art as healing, but there is a, a refined inspiration. So I basically take people through a two to three hour session where we do a bit of meditation and at the same time, then depending upon the group that I have, I will then tailor it to that. So for example, I did the Can150, which is mostly the female Canadian Olympians and sports, sports women. And I did the "Finding Your Inner Hero" basically. And I took them through a two to three hour session where they all had paint and, you know, we put the layers on the paint and then I, I walked them through questions to inspire them to, to dig deep inside as to how they feel, where there are no mistakes. But I like to think that people don't give themselves permission to experience their own wisdom and that when they do the results are life-changing. So everyone so far who I've done this with has, has really pushed me and encouraged me to, to offer it. So it's the Karmic Art Experiences what I'm calling it. [00:31:12] And I was, I've been very fortunate also in my life having an opportunity to help people and serve people. And I was recognized by the it's the WXN, the Women's Executive Network in Canada, the Top 100 Most Powerful Women in Canada. It's the organization that I have actually been nominated to and I've won four times. So I've been a three, three time, four time nominated and winner of the Top 100 Most Powerful Women in Canada. And then in 2018, I was inducted into the hall of fame. And when I, when I got that, thank you. When that happened, Sherry Stevens, who was the owner of, of WXN, she said to me, "Patricia, do you think you would do a WXN art experience for us?" [00:31:55] So I did. So I had, you know, quite a few of the top 100 women in Canada on the, on the Zoom call. And I took them through the Karmic Art Experience, and I cannot even explain how, how deeply profound I recognize that self-care is really needed, especially with women who are in high profile positions. You yourself would know this and that you sometimes work yourself really hard and you don't, you don't stop long enough to actually give yourself permission to, to have a play date with yourself. So by doing the Karmic Art Experience, I'm encouraging people that once they've done it, they, if they want it to continue with my program, which I'll probably create maybe a six week program. But if not that they should still endeavor and push and give themselves that time to find what makes them happy, how they can be happier. And it is as, as complicated as, you know, our minds and our lives can be. It's that complex simplicity that is really needed. [00:33:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. That's that's so cool. Well, and congratulations on that. That is a huge accomplishment and obviously you've super deserve it, but just congratulations on that. Awesome. Yeah. And what a cool real experience. I love, I love what you're doing. I love that you're helping women, especially, but I'm sure people in general, just, yeah, like you said, have that play date, have that self-care that's like you said, it's, it's vital. And so thank you for, for doing that. And I'm excited to see, you know, if that does end up becoming a course or how that sort of plays out in the future, but speaking of that --while I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to see some of your artwork, maybe hear more about this new experience-- is there a way for them to connect with you or to see some of your work? [00:33:58] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yes, I, I'm very approachable and I always like to give my email out to people because I, I feel that's a communication tool that, you know, sometimes you have, you do have more control over. So patgagic@gmail.com. So patgagic@gmail.com. And then my work is, I'm represented by a couple of galleries. 13th Street Gallery is in St. Catherine's and there's also my website, which is patriciakarengagic.com. And I also have inspiredtoberewired.com. And that talks a little bit, I have a project in Cambodia that I started in 2006, and there's some information on that as well. [00:34:49]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. [00:34:51] Patricia Karen Gagic: Thank you. [00:34:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, I, yeah, well, I am just incredibly inspired by your stories and I just think what an amazing, oh my goodness, what an amazing life that you've had so far, and it's just only going to continue to be, I'm sure, wonderful. And I appreciate how much you are, are open and, you know, willing to share with everyone and that. Thank you for that. And thank you also for what you're doing now, because I know that's making a difference in people's lives. And so I think it's really special that you're using a passion and a skill that you have to, to help others. So thank you for that. I commend you for that. [00:35:31] Patricia Karen Gagic: Thank you. [00:35:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, and I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with it. [00:35:37] Patricia Karen Gagic: Okay, sure. I'll try it. [00:35:39]Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. You'll be great. First of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:35:45]Patricia Karen Gagic:  Oh, okay. I think art is liberating and it is the, probably the most relevant document of history that exists. [00:36:01]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Okay. Love it. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:36:09] Patricia Karen Gagic: I think it's liberation, freedom, total expression, and to help shift the misconceptions of, of reality. And it's an opportunity to interpret whatever it is that you, as a human being are here, are here in your own path to experience. And yeah, it's, it's the artist journey. [00:36:36]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, absolutely. And my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that, inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether it's a title or show notes or just context somehow, it's the inspiration. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide context behind it and basically leaves it solely up to the viewer to determine what they will. [00:37:13] Patricia Karen Gagic: Wow. That's a powerful question because that's like chicken and the egg. [00:37:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed. [00:37:19] Patricia Karen Gagic: Yeah. I I'm in, I'm in both of those mindsets. So first of all, I, I oftentimes think that a piece of work that I've completed deserves a title because yeah, I want to express and acknowledge the, that moment so I will do it, but I'm also in the, in the family of, it's my expression. I, if I wanted to write a book about something, I should write the book. The art should stand alone. It is its own word document, and it's for the person to choose, see with their eyes and interpret. So again, that's yeah. I said, I'm sorry, I can't give you one or the other. Both. [00:38:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that's completely fair. I love it. Okay. Well, thank you so much again, Patricia, for being here today and just for sharing all of your stories and I I'm just really blown away. I loved listening to everything that you've done, and I'm just so excited for, for this new venture that you're, you know, really embarking on now. And I just think that, you know, you bring so much beauty to the world and I just appreciate it. And I really appreciate you being here today. So thank you so much. [00:38:41] Patricia Karen Gagic: Thank you, Lindsey. No, I've, I've loved our, I've loved this so much. It's nice to be able to share, you know, my past, some of that. So thank you for this opportunity. You're great. Thank you. [00:38:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Aww, thank you. Yes. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and definitely check out Patricia's work, and we will catch you next time. [00:39:11]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:39:20]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Jessie Katz Greenberg! Jessie has had an amazing journey of being a graphic designer, a podcast co-host, an arts and crafts teacher, a freelance artist, and the DIY Content Creator for Jumprope. She shares about how teaching and encouraging others to create has led to a very fulfilling career, and how being open to possibilities has allowed her to experience art in so many different ways. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is the logo of her co-hosted podcast, Craft Hangout.)    Get in touch with Jessie Katz Greenberg: https://www.crafthangout.com/ | https://www.jumprope.com/ | www.instagram.com/jessiekatzgreenberg |  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 62 - Jessie Katz Greenberg Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited to have as my guest today, Jessie Katz Greenberg, who is a craft content creator, podcast cohost and a DIY content director at Jump Rope, which all of those things sound super cool. So altogether, I'm just so thrilled that you're here, Jessie, and can't wait to chat art with you. [00:02:40] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me on. [00:02:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind starting out by sharing a little bit about your background, sort of what got you into art and crafting and podcasting, and all the things. I'm just so excited to hear about you. [00:02:58]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Sure. So it is, you know, quite the journey from art to sort of where  I am now. So I'll kind of give-- I'll try to give a brief rundown. I have always just been creative and obsessed with crafting and making. I went to art school and fell in love with graphic design and typography there. So that's what I ended up majoring in, and after college worked as a graphic designer, but I really missed, you know, being more hands-on with my art and making things with my hands now that everything I was doing was on the computer. So that really set me off on this journey of just experimenting with my own craft, my own work, and networking within the maker community. [00:03:41] So I did. I started by doing just a lot of hand lettering illustrations. I really started doing hand drawn Facebook statuses. Like before Instagram was a thing, I would post, I would draw my Facebook status and post a picture of it to Facebook and sort of got into hand lettering illustration that way. So I had the opportunity to show some of my lettering in galleries and in cafes and through that, sort of morphed into --I had two handmade businesses, selling handmade jewelry and selling stationary. I sold online on Etsy, at local boutiques and craft fairs. I was lucky enough to have some fun opportunities through those businesses. [00:04:20] My jewelry was made out of recycled materials, so I got some cool local magazine write-ups and actually had it featured on The Today Show. And this whole time I was still working full-time as a graphic designer. That was always the constant. And I was just kind of finding all of these other creative outlets along the way. So eventually I decided I needed to kind of run with these creative side businesses full-time so I left a really secure graphic design job in order to freelance full-time. So I could have more time to spend on my stationary business, specifically doing greeting cards and wedding stationary. And even through that, through running my own creative business, I was still outside of that, looking for like this creative community. And that's when I started hosting a craft nights with my friends. The art making part of my creative businesses was really fulfilling, but the actual business side of it, I realized I didn't love. [00:05:21] And I feel like that was a difficult realization to come to as an artist, like this entrepreneur side of it is so tied to being an artist. And I kind of realized that I didn't, you know, love the business side of it as much. So we ended up moving, going to New York City. I got a job as a packaging graphic designer at a textile company. And this whole time, the constant was always striving to find and be more dedicated in this creative maker community. So I started teaching workshops, a lot of craft workshops, everything from hand lettering to floral monogram wall hangings, to embroidery, to glass etching. I was teaching sometimes three nights a week after work and on weekends. [00:06:05] And that is what I was loving was sharing my art with others. And that's how-- so through all of this, through really just like pouring myself into this aspect of the creation community that I loved. That's how I ended up meeting Eliza Kapitan, who is the creator and host of Craft Hangout. I guested on that podcast and then ended up joining as a cohost a few years ago. And through that I met Jake, the CEO of Jumprope and, you know, a couple months after meeting him joined Jumprope full-time as their DIY Content Director. So sort of made this major shift from being a graphic designer to now joining a tech startup and being able to be sort of like their liaison from the tech side of the company, to the DIY art craft content creators that are creating on the app. So it was a long journey to end up where I am today, but it was one where I just kept sort of following my passions and following what I liked about crafting and art and landed at this job now that I totally love. [00:07:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Well, first of all, I'm so glad you found something that just touches on all the things that you love and are passionate about. I think that just sounds like such a synergistic opportunity, essentially. So very-- like it was hand tailored for you is what it sounds like. [00:07:27] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. It was one of those things where I, I was like, I knew the full-time job I was at wasn't for me anymore, but I didn't know what I wanted. And it was just, just keep doing what you love and something has to show up. It just has to, and luckily it did. [00:07:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I think that's inspirational also in the sense of, you know, keep doing what, you know, you need to do and keep doing what you're passionate about. And even if it's on the side for a while, you just never know where one opportunity will beget another opportunity if you're just open. So how cool. [00:08:02] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I've-- this whole time I've just loved especially when I was teaching workshops, I loved connecting with artists like who are on all different levels of their artistic journey. And then now at Jumprope, like that's what I get to do even more so since we're, you know, an, an app specifically for creators sharing their skills and creating content. So it's, it's been really great. [00:08:25]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Awesome. Well, and I, I was just so struck by, you know... You know, looking back, it might seem like, "Oh, of course this thing led to this thing led to this thing," but of course when you're in it you're, you don't necessarily see how it's all going to eventually get woven together. But I, I really loved how you were talking about, you know, you got to this guest on this podcast and then a couple of years, or a couple, a little while after that, then you've got to, you know, have this opportunity to be co-host and how that meant something else. And it's just such like the perfect example of things coming together because you didn't stop creating, you just created and you've allowed your creativity to kind of evolve. [00:09:04]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. Yeah. And just sort of followed, like what I, I feel like I spent a lot of time at the beginning, especially when I was starting my businesses, spending a lot of time at the beginning, like thinking about, okay, this is what my mission is, and this is what I want to do with it. And like doing all of this planning before things happened. And then I got into this phase letting things happen organically. And that's when, you know, that ended up being a better process for me. I know for some people, planning is what gets them to where they need to be. But for me, just sort of being in this organic process was what worked better for sure. [00:09:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that sounds perfect. Well, okay. So definitely some things really popped out at me of your story and one of the biggest things-- oh, my gosh, you were on The Today Show. How cool of an opportunity. Tell me about that. [00:09:53] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So I know it, and it was so long ago. I almost like, I almost never bring that part up, but it's like, I feel like it's just a fun highlight in this journey. And the thing is like I personally was not on it. Just my jewelry was, and it was part of this Earth Week celebration and I made jewelry out of, most of them recycled plastics, like recycled gift cards and credit cards, and also like disassembling and reassembling some vintage jewelry and things like that. So it ended up being featured on The Today Show as part of this Earth Week thing where they featured, I think, 10 other artists creating, creating art out of repurposed materials. So it was really cool to be in that collection of artists. [00:10:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, definitely congrats on that. And I'm just curious, are you still doing any of those kinds of things on the side as well? Or do you find that your time is so-- you got a lot going on? [00:10:51] Jessie Katz Greenberg: So yeah, I realized along the way that creating physical products and selling them was not-- like I had in my head that's like, that's what you do as an artist. You create these physical items and you sell them. And I realized that's not what was super fulfilling to me. So I stopped doing that when I started teaching 'cause that's when I sort of realized that like teaching was what I enjoyed more. Having someone come from their job that they didn't see as creative and then have them come after work to my class and say, "Oh, I'm not going to make anything very creative because I just work in Excel spreadsheets all day." And then having them leave two hours later, having felt fulfilled and creative, that is where I was, you know, feeling more passionate about art and crafting. So I sort of switched from selling products to fostering creativity in others. And that's what I do with my own content creation. Now I still teach workshops. And I share my own content on Instagram and TikTok and all of that and share a lot of craft tutorials. And so that's what I'm doing now is really fostering that creativity in others. [00:12:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I think that's so cool too. I mean, you, you discovered that teaching is what you really loved and like, like you said, sort of inspiring other people to, to embrace their creativity or to feel like it's, it's okay-- not just okay-- like it's, it's good. I'm wondering if there are any moments when you've been teaching that really stand out as, "Oh my goodness. I got to witness that. That was such a cool moment." Or something like that. [00:12:34] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. Oh, there were a few good ones. So really that one, like that's an actual story of a woman came to my class and was like, "My thing is not going to look good. I just work in Excel all day." And that was like her disclaimer, of like, she can't be creative because she works with spreadsheets. And so to have her at the end of the class, feel like, "Oh my God, look at this thing I made." Like as her instructor felt really awesome. Some other fun moments from classes: I had someone, I was teaching a three week lettering workshop and I had someone at the end of the workshop-- we kind of like work, we start with very beginner skills and then we work towards creating this like final lettering piece. And she created her final piece. And then during the third class, when she was finishing it, she sort of photographed it, posted it on her social media and sold it while we were sitting there in class, like sold her original artwork. And I was like, "Well, that's incredible, but you just did that." [00:13:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow! [00:13:31] Jessie Katz Greenberg: It was like we-- Right? It was amazing that she went from, you know, beginner hand letterer to now I mean, she could call herself a professional letterer, just sold lettering artwork. Wow, what else? I think it's just the moments like that, that, that stand out. And then obviously the moment, just because it sort of set off this whole creative journey was getting to network with people like Eliza from Craft Hangout, and, you know, getting other opportunities outside of workshops as well was, you know, ended up being great. [00:14:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you had also mentioned, I think, previous to starting to teach in a more structured way, that you had hosted craft nights, which just sounds like exactly my cup of tea. So I'm curious as to what those used to look like. [00:14:18] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So I'll be real honest. For a while, they were just sort of a facade for having like girls nights and watching The Bachelor. Like we got a bunch of cheese, turned on The Bachelor, and we brought craft projects and I'd say like 50% of the time we crafted and 50% of the time we didn't, but it was just a good time to like get together with people and  make something, see what everyone else was making. Sometimes one of us would bring something and like teach the others how to do it, or, you know, teach a new embroidery stitch. Or we would do craft supply swaps and, you know, swap stuff that we had, get rid of our yarn stash and trade with each other. So it was just a good time to foster this creativity, like within our own group of friends and learn from each other. And I, there's something so unique about crafting with people. [00:15:14] Like whether they're your friends in a, in an environment like that, or whether it's in a workshop where I don't necessarily know the students, but we're all crafting together. Or even if it's sharing a tutorial online and having people respond to it where people are just so open while they're being creative. So in those time's crafting with friends, it was just a great time to like, get into deeper conversation with each other because you kind of just go there when you're meditating, like meditatively crafting, you just kind of get in to these more open spaces. So it was nice to kind of foster deeper friendships with people that way. [00:15:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And I was chuckling when you were talking about it being sort of a facade for girls nights, but I feel like that's the case with other things too, like book club. I mean, let's be real. That's, it's a fun thing. I love it, but I mean, the, the food and drinks don't hurt anything. [00:16:12] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. It was like, people won't make fun of us for wanting to watch The Bachelor every week if we just say it's a craft night. [00:16:20] Lindsey Dinneen: There you go. I love it. I love it. Well, like you said, how, how cool, because it fostered conversations that, you know, it's not like you might never have had, but to be able to have them on a more regular basis and keep up with each other's lives. I mean, that's, that's pretty special to get to do that, so, yeah. [00:16:37] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just think, I mean, I'm always amazed how crafting does that to, like I said, even perfect strangers. Like I was teaching a class once and one of my students told our class that she was pregnant before she had told like half of her family. And it's just cause you're in this like mode and you feel close to people and it's, it just happens. And I just think that's a beautiful thing about making art and crafting with people. [00:17:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I can relate to that a little bit. I was teaching dance classes and when I got engaged, it was, it was like, it was so exciting. I was, I was just thrilled, over the moon, of course. And so, so the next day when I was teaching the students, finally, like, I just, I couldn't help it. Right? I had told, I had told my family by then, but I hadn't, we hadn't like officially announced it. And I was just like, "Guys." Like, you just can't contain it. You know? And that small class environment and stuff, it was, yeah, it was really special. They were awesome. They were happy for me, but they were cracking up because, yeah, I was just over the top. Oh, goodness. Well, that is, that sounds lovely. So do you still do craft nights at all or is it kind of a thing that maybe eventually you can resurrect after all this crazy goes away? [00:17:57] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, we've done some virtual craft nights. I, so since I, it was several years ago when I started doing them with that group of friends and I since then moved to New York City. I was not living far outside the city. Before I was living in like, you know, maybe half hour, 45 minutes outside the city, but it's very different when you move into New York and then you don't have a car and you can't get out there all the time. So and also just with then turning to teaching crafts and like basically professionally having craft nights, I didn't have as much time to do these other craft nights, but over the last year we have resurrected them with some Zoom craft nights we did. Let's see. I think we all forced our husbands to do a, to do, like a paint night together and like Bob Ross painting paint along. And so we've been doing some, some stuff like that, but not as, not weekly, like we used to. [00:18:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. Well, that's still fun. I'm glad you get to, to keep up on it a little bit. Well, yeah. Yeah. I know, I know this question is going to probably on some level be a little bit impossible to answer, but I'm just curious. Do you have a favorite craft? Like something that you just gravitate towards if you're just like, "I just need some art right now." [00:19:17]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, it really changes a lot, it goes back and forth between a couple specific things. So one is definitely hand lettering just because I, I still love topography as much as I did when I studied it in school for graphic design. I just didn't like being stuck on the computer all the time. So hand lettering is definitely one of those things, and when I like to be a little bit more free and less planned, it's usually embroidery or any type of upcycling. So like, you know, turning cardboard into something or repurposing something around the apartment, anything like that. [00:19:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. That's awesome. Well, obviously, you know, you've-- like we talked about at the beginning, you've kind of really allowed opportunities into your life and not shut them down as like, "Well, I had one vision and that's not the vision, so I'm not going for it." And I think that there's, that that's such a great skill to have or mindset to have. And so I'm kind of curious, do you have advice for somebody who might be interested in starting on the path to crafting, or to be an artist, but is maybe a little hesitant or nervous or anything like that? [00:20:27] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. I, and I feel like this is the advice everyone gives, but I like-- honestly, just start. Like, don't think that you have to do all of this planning ahead of time, just start. And this is even the same advice like I give at work at Jumprope to creators who are nervous about starting video. It's the same thing. It's just start creating video content because the thing is, you are not going to find out what you love and what fits your skill set and what you need. Like, you're not going to find this out until you just start making. So the advice is just start and kind of learn from your own process. Learn what is fulfilling. You learn the aspects that aren't and then kind of develop from there. [00:21:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. I really liked that and yes, you're completely right. I think diving in, just, just doing something. I think even if you're just start by writing a sentence, if you want to be an author or, you know, paint one little bird or something if you want to be a fine artist. You know, it's just, it's, it's being courageous enough to, to take that first step, which is-- it's challenging. I mean, I, yeah, but who knows where those adventures will lead to. [00:21:42] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. And especially now, I feel like it's so challenging to take those first steps because everybody has this idea that things have to be perfect. And like, honestly, because of social media, people think that, especially for visual art, if they're going to create something, it has to be perfect so they can post it, and it looks great next to all of these other professional artists and crafters posting stuff on social media. And the reality is your first one is not going to be perfect. So once you just take away that fear of the first time not being perfect, then everything can flow a little bit. [00:22:17] Lindsey Dinneen: For sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. And giving yourself grace too. No beginner is perfect on day one. I mean, and, and even as you, you know, you journey through being an artist and becoming better and better. There are still ebbs and flows. I mean, there are some days you're like, "Wow, I have zero inspiration and apparently can't draw" or whatever, you know, whatever it is. And that's true. It's just ebbs and flows in the growth process. So. [00:22:48] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. [00:22:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, tell me a little bit more, if you don't mind, about this dream job that you have. That sounds super cool. And obviously you're helping creatives and I'm very curious, because I know, you know, some of our listeners are crafters and creatives and would be interested potentially in what you all have to offer. [00:23:08] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. Awesome. So Jumprope is an app. It's a platform to learn how to do anything. So we make it super easy for creators to share helpful DIYs, art tutorials, even music lessons, recipes, fitness routines, whatever it is you'd like to. You can share your skills on Jumprope. So you're creating these step-by-step videos. They live on the Jumprope platform. Once you publish them, it's a public platform and it's a free app. And then you can also download those videos to share them across all of your other platforms. So the app automatically formats say horizontal version that you can put on your YouTube channel and a vertical version you can put on IGTV, and a sped up vertical version you can use on TikTok, and several versions you can use on Pinterest to drive traffic to your Etsy shop or your blog or whatever it is. So we really try and make it super easy for creators to create video, even if you've never done it before, and then share it to all of the platforms, all the places you have to be. [00:24:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that sounds amazing. What a great resource. Awesome. Well, yeah. If, if anyone wants to kind of check more into that, do you have a good way for them to do that? [00:24:31] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah, absolutely. So Jumprope is available in the Apple App store and the Google Play store. So we're available on iPhone and Android. And we can also, once you actually, you can also just visit, jumprope.com and view the content there as well to kind of get a feel of it. And then if you are getting started in the app, if you're downloading the app now while you're listening, and want some tutorials to get started, you'll see there's a Jumprope tips section in the app, and we've created a ton of tutorials to help get started, share your content. We give you best practices, mistakes to avoid, all of that stuff that you need to know to get started on a new platform. [00:25:12] Lindsey Dinneen: That's perfect. Yeah. Especially if, if the content creator isn't particularly necessarily comfortable with video just yet or that kind of thing, that's, that's very helpful. I'm glad you guys do that. [00:25:24] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. And we actually, like, we know that video is such a barrier for people. So the way that you create on Jumprope, it's actually, it's sort of more similar, honestly, to creating an Instagram story than it is to creating a long form video. It, the platform has all this step-by-step content that you can tap through at your own pace. So you're creating like one card at a time in your tutorial instead of creating this long form video. Even if you're brand new to video, you can actually just put in like process photos of your art process or your craft process and create Jumprope content just from photos to get started. [00:26:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, even better. Very cool. Well, yeah, definitely I would encourage anyone who's interested in taking advantage of an incredible platform to go and check out Jumprope and see if it might be a good fit for you, because that sounds exactly like a fantastic way to grow your business and your following. So I definitely encourage anyone who's interested to definitely do that. [00:26:25] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. And even I do want to say too, like as artists, 'cause this is something that I feel like super, you know, encouraged by as a creator myself, and working on this side of Jumprope, like seeing the type of content that succeeds on this platform just makes me so happy because it does not matter if you have an existing large audience, which I know for people trying to get started, like for, for crafters, especially in artists and content creators, trying to get started on Instagram or TikTok-- there's all of this pressure on what size your following is and since Jumprope is a newer platform, it is not about the size of your following. It is not about the size of your audience. It's really about if your content is valuable. So is your content helpful? Is it detailed so people can follow along? Are you teaching something interesting? Like that's the content that's going to really succeed on Jumprope, whether or not you have a following anywhere else. So it's really encouraging for me to see creators, all different status, like all different stages in their career, sort of succeed on Jumprope just because their content is just plain good. [00:27:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Yeah, no, that is fantastic. And oh, very cool. Yeah, I'm excited to go check it out myself as well, so awesome. Well, and yeah, and so you also co-host this podcast, so yeah. Tell us a little bit, maybe more about the podcast and, and what y'all do. [00:27:51]Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So Craft Hangout is --we call it an inspiration destination podcast. So it actually, you know, fits, I think seamlessly right in with the style of podcast that you have, Lindsey. We at Craft Hangout, we are three co-hosts. So Eliza is the creator and host and then myself and Leeloo Thatcher are the co-hosts and we interview a different guest or guests each week and really try and tell their story. And, you know, narrow it down to some really interesting takeaways for our audience as well. So if you are a professional crafter, blogger, craft hobbyist, entrepreneur, there will be some sort of takeaways for you from, from each episode. [00:28:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, very cool. Yeah, that sounds incredible. Yeah. And then and how can we listen to that? Is it sort of available everywhere podcasts are? [00:28:47] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yes, it is. We are also, we also release through Podbean and, you know, you can find us at just crafthangout.com or we're available wherever you get your podcasts. [00:28:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. Well, this has been very inspirational. I just loved hearing all your stories and yeah, I'm just always so interested in how opportunities can create other opportunities when you're open. And so I just think your, your life story so far has been such a perfect example of that in your openness and your willingness to, to explore so many different styles of creativity even. So awesome. Thank you for that. I, that was great. And I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with it. [00:29:30] Jessie Katz Greenberg: I'm ready for it. [00:29:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:29:37]Jessie Katz Greenberg: So my answer is very simple and I just feel art is creative expression, and I want to be really clear in saying that it can be any creative expression. Crafting is art. Obviously, as you know, like dancing performance is art. Whether you are creating art in your bedroom or a professional studio, if this art ends up in the trash or hangs in a gallery, it's your creative expression and it's art. [00:30:07] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:30:13]Jessie Katz Greenberg: This one is hard. I think that it's just to share your perspective, whatever it is. And, and again, I mean, you'll, this might be very obvious from the way I've answered, I'm answering these questions, but I just feel like, you know, art is for everyone. So I just think the most important role is to share your perspective. And if that perspective is, you know, something deep that people have to think about, or if you're making an important political commentary or you're, you know, making things because it's cute and your perspective as you want to cheer people up and make them happy. And that's the point of it then. All of that is valid. So I think it's just sharing your perspective, whatever that is. [00:30:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then my final question and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, with inclusive and artists putting their work out into the world and providing some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration, basically just having a little bit of background for the viewer. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide what they will. [00:31:32]Jessie Katz Greenberg: I definitely feel like there are, there's a place for both. As a consumer of art, there are times when I enjoy both of these and obviously like having, having gone to art school, I totally appreciate the exclusive type of art, I think, if we're talking about it in these terms, but I personally lean more towards inclusive. I, especially, I think that maybe that just comes too from like me being so drawn to crafts and handicrafts and like folk art type of work is, it's just so tied to the story behind it that I, I like having that context. And even like, if I'm thinking about, you know, crafty artsy content creators that I follow or that we have creating on Jumprope. Like I, like when they share a little bit of a personal story about something, whether it's why they created this piece of art, or they're creating it to celebrate a season or entertain their kids or simplify something where they're an expert. So it's more accessible for beginners. Like I just like hearing the story behind it. So I think I lean a little bit more inclusive. [00:32:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense. And especially because of the way you were talking about how much you found that you enjoy sharing now. Teaching, I would say, is a little bit different, but it's still, that's sort of your nature it sounds like, is to, to share and provide, you know, some background. [00:33:03] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. [00:33:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:33:05] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Exactly. [00:33:07]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. I love it. Well. Okay, great. And I know how we can get in touch with the podcast or kind of follow the podcast and the app. Is there any other way that we can get in contact with you if we want to learn more, just want to follow your journey. Is there a way for us to do that? [00:33:24] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Yeah. So I share all of my work on, on Jumprope, obviously, and on Instagram and some on TikTok and my username across all of these platforms is Jessie Katz Greenberg, all one word. [00:33:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Awesome. And I'll definitely be posting links to that too. So that if you're curious, you can just go to the show notes and easily click on all of that. Well, awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here today, Jessie. I really appreciate you. I love your stories. And I really appreciate how inspiring you are and how much you inspire others to be creative and encourage that, you know, even if it's just starting on the smallest little step, you know, you're right there supporting that. So that's special. And what you bring to the world adds a lot of value and beauty. So thank you. And thanks for being here. [00:34:17] Jessie Katz Greenberg: Thank you so much. This was awesome. I loved getting a chance to talk to you and kind of dig deeper in those, into those questions of what art is. And it was just really a great time. So thank you so much. [00:34:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And thank you also so much to everyone who's listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:34:43]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:34:53]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Bryan Colley! Bryan is a playwright and director, and is premiering his latest work about the 19th amendment, "On Account of Sex," at this year's Kansas City Fringe Festival, running July 18th through August 1st. Learn about his unique approach to naming his theater companies, his writing process, and how he keeps his productions lean and impactful. (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is a cut-out version of his Fringe show's promotional image.)   Watch Bryan Colley's KC Fringe Festival Show, "On Account of Sex": https://kcfringe.org/2021-shows/on-account-of-sex/  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 61 - Bryan Colley Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host, Lindsey and I am absolutely delighted to have as my guest today, Bryan Colley. He is a playwright and producer, and I actually had the opportunity to get to know him just, just a little bit, but through Kansas City Fringe Festival. That's  sort of where we initially got connected. And I am just so delighted. Bryan has such a rich background, and has been involved in the Fringe Festival and as a playwright for years and years, and just brings so much just interesting experience to the table today. So thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it, Bryan. [00:02:54] Bryan Colley: Hello. Thank you for having me. [00:02:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Well, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing just a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started in art in general, writing specifically and, and take it from there, if you don't mind. [00:03:09]Bryan Colley: Okay. I'm not sure how far you want to go back. But I think I've wanted to be a writer since I was a teenager or at least to do something creative. I do art as well. I went to The Art Institute for a year. My college years were kind of scattered, trying to figure out where I wanted to be, because I didn't know if I wanted to do art or if I wanted to make movies. And somehow I ended up doing theater and didn't think I wanted to write plays until I wrote my first play. And it was such a good experience that I said, "Hey, this is something I can do." So after college, I started writing plays and also spent a long time writing screenplays. I'm one of the founding members of the Kansas City Screenwriters that's still meeting. I think we started in 1992 and we're still meeting today, just a very small group of people who wanna write screenplays. And I haven't really written a screenplay in a long time, but I did spend a long time writing them before Fringe came along, and then I kind of committed myself to writing plays after that, just at, at the very minimum, at least doing one show a year. Every year for Fringe was a goal, which I have done every year since 2008. [00:04:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. And so I know that Fringe probably helped narrow down your trajectory, but I-- it seems like you, how should we say ,you got "volunteered" into a broader role with Fringe. And so, your role kind of has expanded from not only being on the producing side, but then also being on the whole administrative/ marketing genius side. Is that correct? [00:04:57] Bryan Colley: That is correct. My wife, Tara, and I went to Fringe its first year and went and saw the shows there and came away from it thinking, "Hey, we can do this." And so the next year we wrote our first show for the Fringe, which was called "Jesus Christ, King of Comedy." And it was supposed to be a sketch show basically around a theme of, of basically Jesus is an entertainer and it's actually more about showbiz life than it is about the Bible or anything. But it was supposed to be like a group show. We had invited a whole bunch of people we knew to write a sketch and a one guy wrote a sketch about Jesus's birthday, where Joseph is there trying to have a happy birthday with, with a young Jesus, and then God shows up and kind of steals all the thunder, as gods will do. And, and then, so that gave us the idea to make the show about Joseph, as this put-upon father, who's raising this kid that isn't his and kind of life the life of Joseph, which we never get to see. [00:06:06] So we took all these different sketches and kind of built a story out of it. And that was our very first Fringe show. But I'm also a graphic designer and had been doing graphic graphic design work. And I was friends with Cheryl Kimmi who runs the Fringe and, I guess I was complaining a lot about their printed program, which was basically just an Excel Sheet dumped onto a piece of paper for people to try to figure out what show they wanted to go see. And so I offered to help the next year after that, to do their program for them and have been doing it ever since. I've been at it every year, honing it down and trying to get better and better programs so that people can find the shows they want to go. And so, and that led to other administrative roles with Fringe. I basically volunteer and help out what they need to do and work behind the scenes that way. [00:06:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. And every fringe producer who comes through Kansas City is super grateful  to have Bryan because Bryan, you are very good at articulating exactly what helps to capture someone's attention. If you're not familiar with the Fringe Festival, anyone who's listening, there are hundreds of shows to choose from every year traditionally. And so Bryan is always really good at helping producers who might not have the graphic design or writing background to sort of say, "Hey, here are some best practices to get people's attention and, you know, do this, don't do this." So anyway, we're all super thankful to have Bryan on board, to say that as a blanket statement, because it is true. So thank you for taking a spreadsheet and making it beautiful. That's such a great story. Go ahead. [00:07:49]Bryan Colley: What happens is Tara and I-- usually most of the shows we've done at Fringe Tara and I write together, and so after the playwriting is done, she will, she directs all the plays. So she would go off with the actors and she will direct a play. So I'm, as a playwright, I've got nothing left to do. So I put a lot of my attention to marketing. So I apply my graphic design skills and I do the marketing. And I guess I had a few successful shows, so Fringe thought I was some kind of a marketing guru. So they kind of have me work with marketing for Fringe as well and help all the other producers market their show. And I help as much as I can, so. [00:08:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes and we appreciate it. So definitely. And yeah, I love the story especially of your first show and how that came together. And that sounds so fascinating to come from a perspective that, like you said, we don't get to hear. So I like the imagination behind that. And so that was 2008? Or is that when you first saw the Fringe. [00:08:54] Bryan Colley: No, that was 2008 was our first show. [00:08:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. And then after that, you've literally produced at least one per year. Do you ever run out of ideas? I mean, obviously you don't, but how does that writing process work for you? [00:09:06]Bryan Colley: It varies, of course, with each show. Sometimes we plan way ahead and have ideas going in to the show. We usually don't start talking about the next year's Fringe until after, you know, until that that show is done. And then we start talking about, what are we going to do next year? And so it usually takes about a year to write a show. Sometimes we'll have an idea in advance, but usually not. So it's just kind of looking for that thing that we have not done before, is basically looking for an idea or a concept or a style or something that we haven't done yet, because it's really easy to just... Well, well, you might notice is most theater companies are a company and they have a name and they produce shows and there's some at Fringe, theater companies that come back every year and produce shows [00:09:54]But you'll notice with our shows practically every year, it's a different theater company name that we use on the idea that once you established a theater company as a name, you're pretty much locking yourself into doing a certain kind of show. So this theater company will do this kind of show and you know what to expect from them. And we didn't want that. We didn't want to be a theater company and we didn't want to be locked down into saying, this is what we do. We wanted to... actually people not know what's going to come next and not know what to expect. And so we changed. We make up a theater company every year and this theater company we make up would produce that kind of show. [00:10:35]But it's been interesting because sometimes we will go back and reuse the theater company name, like for our show this year. Our second show we did at Fringe was called The Lingerie Shop, which was sort of like this kind of feminist fantasy kind of thing, comedy, and the theater company we, we used was called the Fourth Wave Theater, which is like a feminist reference and, and that was all well and good, but now we're doing a new show that also has this kind of feminist theme. So we're using the Fourth Wave Theater Company has come back and is producing their second show. So that's kind of how it was. And then on years where we don't know or where, what we're planning to do falls through, and we have to do something else, then we call it Plan B Production. [00:11:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Perfect. [00:11:28] Bryan Colley: And it's happened twice, I think. Yeah. It's twice that we've had to fall back on the Plan B Productions. [00:11:33]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's brilliant. [00:11:36] Bryan Colley: Sometimes things don't work out. [00:11:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Indeed, especially in the art world, especially with live theater. Yup. Well, that's awesome. I, I don't think I realized that, but that makes more sense, 'cause I'll, you know-- once you start participating in Fringe shows or the festivals long enough, then you know, you sort of start to get to know each other. And it's really fun. There's like a lot of comradery with Fringe and, and it makes so much more sense that you're under a different title every time. 'Cause there would be times where I'd be like, "Yeah, which one is his this year?" And that makes sense. It's because you use different theater companies. That's funny. I love it. And that's smart! 'Cause like you said, it doesn't tie you down to anyone genre or topic or style. Like I just, yeah. Interesting. I like that approach. [00:12:26] Bryan Colley: I mean the most common thing we have in our shows is that we wrote, wrote them, but there've been two shows that we didn't write that we've done. So even that doesn't hold true, and I guess you could say Tara directs them all, except the one we did last year where she was the star. So we had other directors. [00:12:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. She has a background obviously in directing and acting as well. Did you guys meet through theater or through different means? [00:12:54]Bryan Colley: Yeah. After college I started working with the Gorilla Theater, and basically I got out of college. I was looking for stuff to do. One of my other college friends was doing Gorilla Theater and invited me in and I just started doing it, whatever they needed to be done. A lot of it was sound design or running the sound, soundboard. They didn't have anyone to do that. And eventually it was like, well, we need to market our shows better. So I started doing marketing. I eventually ended up on the Board of Directors and doing like the financial stuff and writing a grant. And basically it was just, this is what they need. So I'll step in and help out. But anyway, one of the last Gorilla Theater shows I did was directed by Tara. And, and we'd met on a Gorilla Theater show right before, or maybe it wasn't Gorilla. [00:13:42] We met. She'd done some Gorilla shows. She did some other shows. We met back in the nineties doing theater. And then we, but she was just an actress then, and I kind of pushed her into her directing in going into Fringe as a director. And partly because she wasn't happy with how theater was done where she wants more of a process kind of thing, where she wants to work with the actors more. And she never got that as an actor. It was always just kind of like, "here's your blocking, you know, your lines, let's do a show" kind of thing, and there's not really a process to it. So she brings that process when she does the Fringe shows. I suppose we probably have more rehearsals than normal, but, but we always give actors a lot of input into the final process. [00:14:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, that's nice. I think it's nice 'cause it sounds like it's much more up her alley, much more her style of interacting and producing these plays. So that's, that's great. I mean, that's such the, the nice benefit about being able to have your own productions that you produce and, you know, she's working with you as the writer. So, you know, if there are any differences in interpretation, y'all can work that out. And I mean, that sounds like a pretty good, good partnership right there. [00:15:00]Bryan Colley: Yeah. That's what I mean. I'm, I'm more open probably than anyone to changing the script and improving it and doing whatever. And because she's a co-writer, she feels complete freedom to just change whatever she wants to change. She doesn't have to even ask me if it's a good idea. So, yeah, it helps that way if you want to do a process, if you want to have more of a process in developing a show. Like that it helps to have the playwright there and to be able to just change whatever you want. [00:15:34] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Absolutely. Well, and then, so I know that you guys have a show that you're obviously producing for this year's Fringe Festival, how are you at the filming stage of it yet? Or are you guys still kind of rehearsing and getting, getting it up to where it's ready to film? Where are you in that whole process? And maybe just a little bit about your show-- a little teaser. [00:15:56] Bryan Colley: A little teaser... it's already recorded. It's actually the show we wrote for last year's Fringe before COVID happened. And we were all ready to produce it. It's called "On Account of Sex" and it's about the, the long process to get, to pass the 19th amendment, where the women won the right to vote, and in 1920. And of course, 2020 was the hundred year anniversary of the amendment. And so that's kind of why we plan to do the show for 2020. And it's the only time we've ever written a show that was timely in any way. And so of course, all of our plans went awry with COVID and we weren't able to produce the show. We were just getting to the point of starting rehearsals when, when COVID happened and we decided we didn't want to do the show in any kind of virtual way, any kind of like a Zoom kind of thing. So we just said, "Well, we'll do it next year." [00:16:56] And now here we are a year later, and we're still not having a live Fringe, so we still aren't able to do the show. But back in August on the anniversary of the 19th amendment, we did a, like a reading of the play using Zoom. And so we just had a one night only, this is the anniversary, so we're going to do and we put together a reading of the show. And so we still have that recording and we're going to use that for our show for Fringe next year, or this year. And then hopefully next year we can actually produce the show. [00:17:29] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh yeah. I definitely miss in-person theater. I'm so grateful that there are ways to adapt to the times, but yes, I, I miss I miss in-person theater. Well, that shows sounds fantastic. I can't wait to watch it. I'm obviously super interested in that subject. And I just think that it's such a great thing that you're addressing and talking about. So that's, that's awesome. Thank you for doing that. And typically find out ticket links and things like that what, early July? I'm trying to remember. [00:18:04] Bryan Colley: I think tickets go on sale July 1st. [00:18:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Okay, perfect. So yes. So Brian, if there's people who want to watch the show and, and/ or connect with you, is there a good way for them to be on the lookout for that? [00:18:17]Bryan Colley: They should just go to kcfringe.org and they can sign up for the mailing list and be informed of everything that's going on. [00:18:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Cool. And then your theater company this year, plus the title just one more time. So we're, we're squared away, ready to watch it. [00:18:34] Bryan Colley: Right. Our show is called "On Account of Sex" and the theater company is Fourth Wave Theater. [00:18:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Yes, we'll definitely be on the lookout for that. Thankfully with the virtual format, now it's so accessible, so you don't even have to be local to Kansas City anymore. You can literally watch this from the comfort of your home anywhere. So yeah, definitely be able to look out for that. Bryan, I'm curious, you know, you've kind of led a very artistic life with your different ventures. And I'm, I'm curious if you have any advice for someone who might be interested in doing something maybe a little bit on the side. I mean, you have your graphic design as well, but maybe for somebody who is thinking about producing a show at some point, but just hesitant. What advice would you have for somebody like you? [00:19:21]Bryan Colley: I would say you just have to go there. Don't don't hesitate to go and make a fool of yourself. When we did the Jesus Christ, our motto was "forgive us for, we know not what we do." So and that model still applies to everything we do, because we always try to do, we try to do stuff that we don't know what we're doing. We, we try to do something we haven't done before. So almost every show is like, "Well, I don't, I don't know what we're doing this time, but we're doing it." And whether, you know, 'cause we have done musicals, we have done an opera, we have done a variety of different shows. We did a show in a planetarium. So every time it's, it's a new experience for us. So we're learning every time and it's, and it's basically like doing it all over for the first time. [00:20:07]Fringe is great for that. I mean, that's the best thing about Fringe is anybody can just go in and do something and, and not only is it a welcome environment for that, the, the audience is welcoming to that too. They're not, they're not paying $50, $60 tickets and expecting a big professional show. They know what they're getting into. They're very forgiving of mistakes. They know the format, they know what Fringe is and, and they know it's experimental and a lot of people doing it for the first time. So it's just kind of, that's it just a place to go and do something, do whatever, whatever, whatever you fancy and, and, and the, that it's, it's wide open to whatever you want to do. It's like any, any crazy idea will, will fly there. So. [00:21:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, definitely. Yes. Love it. Yep. Just go do it. I like it. And I, I do agree. I think Fringe is one of the the best outlets that I've found. And it's, it's not very cost-prohibitive to produce a show through Fringe too. And I know a lot of times that's a concern when you're first starting out. So yeah. Fringe is a great connection. There are Fringes literally all across the world, so definitely try to find whatever's local to you and see what the process is like, because I think you'll find it a lot-- I mean, it's a lot of work-- but it's a lot more accessible than you think it is. So. [00:21:36] Bryan Colley: And the hardest part, I think, for people doing new-- for people just getting out there for the first time, especially if you're producing something for the first time, the hardest part is finding an audience and finding people to come see your show, because nobody knows who you are and you don't have this loyal following. So that's another thing Fringe is great for because there's already an audience there. There's people going to shows and looking for something to go see. So it's a lot easier just to find an audience and get people to see your show. [00:22:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I'm just curious, I'm sure that there are moments that stand out to you, either witnessing someone watch your art, or you participating in someone else's art, but that just sort of stand out as this moment that mattered. And I'm just curious what that might look like for you if you have any examples that come to mind. [00:22:27]Bryan Colley: Oh, well, there's probably a lot of those moments. I mean, I've, I've seen a lot of shows that have blown me away and just really impressed me. And they're not always the biggest, the best. In fact, they're very rarely the big, biggest, and best show. It's usually the little scrappy productions and kind of stuff you have to seek out that have really impressed me. It was just creativity and, and theatricality and kind of stuff because they don't have, you know, a full staff and a full shop and can build sets and do all the traditional stagecraft. They have to be creative and come up with different ways to do things. So there's been a lot of stuff over the years that's really blown me away and I try to incorporate. You know, as a playwright, you, you typically think of the playwright is like, well, they have these words and they write the dialogue. And, but as a playwright, you have a lot more tools available to you to do that because you can say, "I want this character to dance. I want this, I want there to be music here. I want, you know, this should be poetry." [00:23:36] You have all the theatrical tools at your disposal that you can pull in and use in your play. So, so I try to be aware of that. If I want to use mime, if I want to use masks, if I want to do this or that you, you want to be aware of what's out there and be able to use, utilize all of that and make something that's theatrical. You don't need a huge budget to produce theater. You just need to be creative about how you approach it so that you can, you can tack tackle big subjects. You know, I keep telling myself someday, I'm going to write a play that requires a set. And it hasn't happened yet. So, you know, you just, you find other ways to do things when you're, when you're-- and, and audiences, I think audiences like that. I think, I think there have been people that reacted to our shows and it just like, they, they liked the creative approach and, and I know some of the shows, a few of the shows I think have reached a higher level, what you typically expect from a Fringe. So I wouldn't say all of them do, but I think a couple of them have. [00:24:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, and I like what you're saying about the sets. And I think that that is such a, an interesting dynamic of, you know, like, you'll go and see a Broadway production or like a Cirque du Soleil show or something like that. And the sets are integral to the choreography and, and all of it, and it's amazing. Like, it, it blows you away just because you think, "Oh my gosh, the creativity in that." But then, like you said, you'll go this local theater company or a dance company or whatever, and it's kind of art speaking for itself and doesn't have all the glitz behind it. And sometimes that's really impactful just that way. 'Cause you're, you're not necessarily distracted by the sets or the props or things like that. You're really kind of more focused on the art itself and that's where some of that brilliance can shine through. So I actually like your, you know, your challenge for yourself of "how do I create this and not use sets? How can I be creative and think about this in a different way? And what would that look like if I do that?" So kudos to you. That's awesome. [00:25:46]Bryan Colley: Well, yeah. I mean, it's partly because, I mean, my plays are not getting produced by big theaters, so I don't have that experience, you know, to draw from. But, you know, I always, when I'm writing, I'm always thinking, how could this, how can this be produced as cheaply as possible? I'm not writing something that requires a huge budget, you know? [00:26:09]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. Yep, absolutely. [00:26:13]Bryan Colley: My probably worst sin is, is-- it's hard. I find it hard to write anything with fewer than five actors. So it always seems to end up at about five actors or so, five or more. So, you know, if you really want to write cheap theater, you can't have that many actors, you know, and especially if you're doing Fringe shows and there's artists out there who are professional, and this is all they do is Fringe and they travel around the country or around the world and do, do their Fringe shows. And usually these shows are one or two people, you know, because they have to be able to travel and travel cheaply, you know, and be able to produce it as cheaply as possible. So, so people have always told us we should take our shows to other Fringe festivals, but logistically it's just really hard when you have five actors who all have their own schedules and trying to pack a show up and, yeah, it's just makes it really tough. [00:27:12]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah, I can, I can relate to that. It's, it is challenging when you have a little bit of a bigger group of people and you're like, "Yes, we're going to travel." And then you think about all the logistics and you're like, "Well, maybe not, maybe not right now." But yeah, no, that is that's really cool. I really like learning more about your process. It was so interesting to hear about, you know, the fact that you use different theater companies and why, and you know, your stance on all of the different things. So thank you for sharing all of that. And I do have three questions that I always like to ask my guests, if you're okay with that. [00:27:48] Bryan Colley: Okay. Three questions. [00:27:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Three questions. Okay. So the first is, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:27:58]Bryan Colley: Okay, well, I think art, in the grand scheme, art is, is how we communicate. It's, it's the most advanced form of communication. I mean, there's the obvious, you know, language-- you write a book and, and use words, and that's the obvious communication. But, and, and that works great if someone can speak that language, but not everyone does. And art is a way you can communicate that goes beyond language. And, and even as a playwright, of course I'm using words, but, but theater as a, as a way of communicating, it's, it's, it's, it's not just using words to tell a story. It's, it's putting, putting a scene on stage and communicating that experience. So you can communicate the experience, you can communicate emotions. I mean visual art is the way to communicate, you know, how do I describe the color blue? Well, I can, I can do a lot of words during it to tell you what blue is and never really explain it, but I can show you the color of blue and I can do, you know, a painting that shows you something you haven't seen before and communicates new ideas and thoughts and experiences. And I think that's kind of what art is all about and what, you know, it's what brings us together, humanity together, more than anything else. [00:29:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I love that. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:29:37]Bryan Colley: Well, that's a, that's a tricky question. I mean, I think the role of the artist is to, to offer ideas to the world and hopefully they can offer an idea. No one's thought of before. And of course, you know, everyone is born ignorant, so everyone experiences new ideas all the time in the, in the course of their life. It's not like there's this one set of ideas everybody knows. Everyone has a different experience. So, so everyone has a way to experience art and some people gain something from it and other people don't because maybe they've already experienced that or, or they don't understand it, you know? So, so you need a wide field of art out there because there's just different art for each person. [00:30:23]So but you know, it's, you go through life learning things, you get an education, you read books, you, you know, I'm a media junkie. I watch films and I listen to music, you know, it's consume, consume, consume. And I think at some point you want to contribute to that or you want to give back and it's like, well, I've learned all this for what reason? It's like, so that I can take my experience and my knowledge and offer my ideas or my observations on that. So that's where art comes into play, I think. And I think it's something everyone can participate in. It's not just for professionals. Everyone can be an artist and offer something to the world. [00:31:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely agree. Yeah. And then my final question, and I'll explain my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and provides some context behind it, whether it's title, show notes, the inspiration, just something to give the viewer a little bit of context as to what was going on in the artist's mind. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but it doesn't provide the context. And so it's left solely to the viewer to decide what they will. [00:31:47]Bryan Colley: Well, I think it depends on the art, I think, but I generally think exclusive. I think art should stand on its own and speak for itself and not require context. But as I just said, everyone has a different experience. So if you don't provide context, somebody may not understand it or may not be interested, but that's fine because you're, you know, art's, art's not for everyone. It's for those who need it and what you're offering somebody out there might need and might react to. And that's what you're going for. But so, but I think the art should stand on its own, but I see no problem with providing context, if you want. And some things are better with context and some, some the context doesn't matter, but if you provide the context, it's only for those people who are really wanting that context, or really want to know more. I don't think it should be a prerequisite. I think people should experience the art and say, "Wow, that's really interesting. I want to know more." And then go after the context. I mean, that's how I approach it anyway. It's just like, I find something that interests me and then I want to know more about it and do the research. But, but if I do the research first, it just kind of... [00:33:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it impacts the way you view it, for sure, no matter what. I mean, it couldn't not, there's your double negative for the day. Yeah. And I, yeah, that makes complete sense to me, the way that you were talking about it. I'm curious, when you produce your plays, do you guys provide any sort of program or is it, or, or if it's a program, is that just sort of like, Lisa was played by so-and-so and Daniel was played-- you know what I mean? Is it, do you provide context when you do stuff or not? [00:33:32] Bryan Colley: We always do a program, of course, ' cause actors love to have their bios and like to think and sometimes the program is more fun than others. I wouldn't say they really provide context. And I know when we did the opera, we provided the libretto so people could read what was being sung because, you know, it can be hard to follow. Not that they could read during the show, cause it was dark in the theater anyway, but at least they can go out afterwards and read what they were singing if they want to. So yeah, it depends on the show, what, what we think the show needs. Sometimes it needs more. I know Tara has a real disdain for director's notes. So we don't really do that. We might provide just some background, but mostly we just put the actors' bios in and maybe add some fun stuff if we can think of it. So. [00:34:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, that's totally great. And, and like you said, it's, it's completely up to each individual artist. So again, no wrong answer. It's just really interesting to me to hear different people's approaches and their reasoning behind it 'cause I think, you know, it's, it is subjective to the artist. It's subjective to the art itself. And so I just, I'm always just fascinated by, by what people say about that. So great answer. I loved it. Yeah. Well, thank you again, so very much for being here today, Bryan. I really, really appreciate it. And I do highly encourage anyone who is interested in Bryan's work to definitely check out this year's Fringe Festival. Again, tickets are supposed to go live in-- we'll just say early July, just in case anything, but just keep your eyes open for that kcfringe.org. And then yeah, definitely take a look at that.  Well, thanks again, Brian, that was so much fun to chat with you today. I'm looking forward to seeing this production, of course. And I appreciate you. Thanks. [00:35:23] Bryan Colley: I guess we should mention that the Fringe Festival itself will be July 18th through August 1st. Those are the actual dates you can actually watch the show. [00:35:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you for that. Yes. Yes, exactly. So that will give you your timeline for how long you can watch it. So you'll, you'll have plenty of opportunities to grab those tickets and watch the production. And if you are feeling as inspired as I am right now, I'd love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:35:53]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:36:03]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Christopher Boorman! Christopher shares his most meaningful art-related story about learning to appreciate Bob Dylan and his music, and what that journey has led to, along with his own experience becoming a professional speaker. (Fun fact: the cover image for this episode is the logo for Christopher's speaking business!)   Get in touch with Christopher Boorman: https://www.facebook.com/BoormanSpeaks | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwiz0LWnWsYxyhy671sdmmg  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 60 - Christopher Boorman Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11] Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am excited to have as my guest today, Christopher Boorman. He is a Christian speaker originally from Queens, but has been spending a lot of time in Connecticut. And I'm just so excited to hear from him and learn from him. So thank you so much for being here today, Christopher. [00:02:34] Christopher Boorman: Thank you, Lindsay. It's a great honor to be here. Thank you for that. [00:02:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of course. Well, I would absolutely love if you would share just a little bit maybe about your background, how you got involved with art. I know you have a very particular story to share, which I'm excited to hear about later, but also maybe just start with a little bit about you. [00:02:52]Christopher Boorman: Sure. Well, as you mentioned, I was born in Queens and when I was nine years old, my parents moved to the suburbs of Connecticut. Thankfully they took me with them. I still consider myself a native New Yorker though. As you can hear, I don't have the New York accent. But I like to say that I still have that New York attitude, and over the last 20 or so years I've spent in the financial services IT world testing computer systems for upgrades and bug fixes. And over the last five years, writing specs for system improvements. And while I'm looking for my next gig in the gig economy, I'm starting a side hustle as a Christian speaker, and I am a huge fan of music, always have been. In particular, I have been a Bob Dylan fan for well over 30 years. [00:03:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Very nice. Okay. So I'm sure that there is quite a bit to unpack there, but yeah. So I'm curious what, since, since you didn't spend-- well, obviously you spent, you know, your first little bit of life in New York,-- but so you, you consider yourself still having that sort of mindset. So I'm curious what you mean. [00:04:06]Christopher Boorman:  I... New York is probably considered, but at least by some the the capital of the universe. It is, you know, it's one of the largest cities in America. It is home to, cultural institutions, you know, like Radio City Music Hall, the, the Museum of Art and, it, it just feels like almost like being part of royalty. Being from New York, I always had such an awe of the city, even as a young kid, going with my father to work around Christmas time there. They would have a special treat. You could bring your kids into work. Going into downtown Manhattan and seeing those skyscrapers, everything just seemed larger than life. I mean, it was New York. I mean, it was the place to be. It's the place where everyone wants to go to strike out on their own, find fame and fortune, especially in the arts. Christina Stanton, she moved to New York to start a career in theater. [00:05:07]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It is such a cool place to be. I have only ever-- well, the longest I've been there has been three weeks-- but it was very cool to just be a part of that incredible community. Yeah. [00:05:23] Christopher Boorman: I think part of it has to do with-- I always like to say-- context is everything. Growing up in the suburbs of Connecticut proved to be very difficult. I got along with my classmates fine in Queens, New York. There was never any problems, but it wasn't until I moved to the Connecticut suburbs that I started being bullied in school for whatever reason. And as you probably know, children don't need a reason to bully each other. They just, maybe it's because that was the new thing. Maybe because I was scrawny. And those first few years were extremely tough for me. And sometimes we tend to look to the past with rose colored glasses. And maybe that's why I appreciate New York so much is because my first few years in Connecticut were very different. [00:06:12]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, sure. Ugh. Yeah. Sorry to hear that. But yes, I, I-- that makes sense to me, at least the stark contrast from the-- from Queens to Connecticut. That makes sense. Well, yeah, so I know you have been a Bob Dylan fan forever. I would love if you would share a little bit more about maybe how you got connected with his music and sort of what inspires you. [00:06:35]Christopher Boorman: Sure. Ever since I was a young kid, even in Queens, I loved music. I loved singing songs in church, singing songs in school. I loved listening to the radio when I was in the car with my parents or when my mom had the radio on in the kitchen as I was preparing for school. So I was, I was a young child in the late seventies. So I grew up on the Mellow Gold singer/songwriter, soft rock kind of music, because that was popular at the time. Well, that and disco, but when my family moved to Connecticut in the early eighties, we got cable TV for the first time. And from my nine year old self, that meant MTV. And I loved it. Years ago, I read an article that described MTV as the original iPod shuffle, because part of the enjoyment of MTV was wondering what they were going to play next. [00:07:38]And so between MTV and the local pop radio stations, I was exposed to a bunch of different newer artists. This was not the late seventies music that my parents enjoyed. This was early eighties music. This was music for my generation and it was a stark contrast to what I had grown up. So I spent hours and hours and hours-- I mean, basically every free moment --watching MTV. You know, even if I had it on in the background, doing my homework, and I just loved watching the videos and the creativity that went along with the music. It was a perfect pairing. And one music video that particularly captivated me was "We Are the World." [00:08:26] Now for your younger listeners, "We Are the World" was a song written as a fundraiser for relief for a famine in Ethiopia at the time and it was created in one all night recording session. I believe it was in February of 1984. So this was right after the Grammy Awards and it included a who's who of pop and rock artists past and present, or present at the time. Think of Billy Joel, Hall and Oates, Huey Lewis, Tina Turner, Willie Nelson, and the music-- the list just goes on. And beyond the purpose of it-- which was noble, it was charitable-- it was also a great song. Yeah, it was co-written by Michael Jackson who in the early eighties was kind of on a winning streak, and being a music fan, even as young as I was at the time, I could identify just about every singer that was featured in that song, except for a few. [00:09:30]And one of the few singers that I didn't know at the time was this guy who didn't appear to be singing at all. I mean, he looked like he was talking his way through the lyrics and you know, everybody's heard that the parodies of the Bob Dylan voice, you know. "This is a choice we're making." Now keep in mind, I'm nine years old at the time. And I think "Who is this?" I mean, he's got to be somebody. I mean, he, he didn't just wander into the recording studio off of the street-- and I mean, well, maybe he did, I, I have no idea-- and I was just so confused and curious. Well, being nine years old, you're, you're at that age, and you're taking piano lessons and eventually I got the sheet music to "We Are the World." I thought, "All right, let me go through all the list of names on the sheet music and whatever name I don't recognize, well, that must be him." [00:10:24]So I go through the names and I say, all right, this guy is either Harry Belafonte or Bob "Dye-lin." Well, later on I, later on, I find out it is pronounced Dylan, and I later learned that he's the guy who wrote "Blowing in the Wind," the Peter, Paul, and Mary song. Oh, okay. Fine. That's a good enough song. I still don't see why I should care about this guy or why anyone else does? Well, the following summer "Live Aid" happens July 13th, 1985. I didn't have to Google it 'cause I remember it. It was the biggest concert in history, benefit concert or otherwise there, there will never be a show like it. You can't do a show like that today and you never will. [00:11:16] And I remember the whole thing like it was yesterday, it was a nearly 24 hour concert on three continents and MTV carried the whole thing. And I was glued to that TV all day long. I got up early on a Saturday to watch the show 'cause I didn't want to miss it. One of the locations was Philadelphia. I believe it was, I think it was the JFK Stadium, and the grand finale of the show was everybody was going to get on stage and sing "We Are the World," but just before that, the penultimate act was Bob Dylan. I remember watching and he kicked off his set with a song I didn't recognize. And then he followed it up with another song. I didn't recognize. And finally he concluded his short set with "Blowing in the Wind." Okay. I recognize that one, but he sang it in that same talking voice of his, you know, "The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind." Yeah, I still didn't get it. I still didn't get why this guy was so popular, but I saw the way the crowd was reacting to him. There was an entire stadium full of people, 50,000, 55,000, everybody in a hushed reverence. [00:12:45] And I saw who was backing him up. It was Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood from The Rolling Stones. Now I certainly knew who they were and I know that they don't, they're not going to back up just anybody just 'cause they ask. I mean, Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood all at the top of the music pyramid, at the top of the food chain. And then I noticed Dylan's placement in the line. He went on just before the grand finale. It wasn't Madonna. She played earlier. It wasn't Duran Duran, wasn't even the reunited Led Zepplin. I understood who Led Zeppelin was. I understood them getting back together was a big deal, but they, none of them went on before the finale and each of them was arguably more popular than Dylan was at the time. [00:13:35]And so based on all of this, my 11 year old brain just came to the conclusion, "All right. I don't get it, but this guy has to be important in some way." And so I filed it away in my head and fast forward a few years later, I'm in high school and a classmate lends me their cassette copy of Bob Dylan's "Greatest Hits" and I listened to it. And I, then I said, "Oh, yeah, I get it now". " Like a rolling stone, the times they are a' changing. It ain't me, babe." Subterranean, homesick blues, and I thought, "How does this guy write so many great songs?" And maybe it's because I was a little bit older, a little bit more cynical, a little bit more world weary as world-weary as you can get it at 14 years old. I understood Dylan's voice better. It was the exact opposite of something that was polished, something that was fancy and perfect. Dylan's voice is very much imperfect and flawed. Just like me. And that's probably when I became a big fan. And so I started to read everything I could about him. [00:15:05] And of course I started buying the albums and eventually I owned them all and then some. I haven't listened to them all, but I own them. And of course it becomes a full-blown obsession. And now I can't understand why everyone doesn't like Bob Dylan, as much as I did. And actually my appreciation for Bob Dylan inspired me to pick up a guitar again. And for about 10 years, I was in a local band called Red Embers. We actually have an, an album on iTunes, and I'm very, very proud of that. And of course, I started going to the shows whenever Bob Dylan would come into town. My first Bob Dylan show was at The University of Hartford in 1997. And since then I've seen him about 65 times give or take. I stopped counting. And I've seen him in five different states. I've seen him in clubs, arenas, even baseball park. [00:16:12] And I remember one particular show in November of 2000. It was in Kingston, Rhode Island at The University of Rhode Island. Bob played a song called "10,000 Men." And, you know, you could be forgiven for not knowing that song. It was released on an album called "Under the Red Sky," released about nine years prior, in 1991-- an average song from a below average album, but he had never played it before and he hasn't played it since. He only played it that one time. And I was there and that is my claim to fame. [00:16:55]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. Well, first of all, I love that song, "We Are the World." I think it's just such a beautiful song that just unifies and brings people together. And I just have always appreciated the story behind it and what it was intended for, and then just watching the video is just so cool. And, you know, it's since been remade, you know, of course, but it's just so good. It, there, there's nothing quite like that song. I think it is really powerful. So I could totally see why that was sort of the catalyst for your quest to know who Bob Dylan was and, and go from there. But oh my word, you have seen him-- so I'm so impressed with how many times you've been able to go and see him and yeah, how cool, so unique. And I also love it. [00:17:53] Christopher Boorman: I personally funded Bob Dylan's 401k plan. [00:17:56]Lindsey Dinneen: Fair enough. Well, you know, everyone needs one, so there you go. But also cool to have gotten that, that pretty unique opportunity to hear that one song live and, like you said, your claim to fame. But oh my goodness, so interesting. So I'm, I'm curious, are you-- obviously you've gotten a chance to really follow what he does, but have you also found out more about his life? Is it part of-- like is your respect for him, is it solely based on him being a really fantastic artist? Or is it also like who he is as a person? Or I'm just kinda curious, you know, all of that, about all of that. [00:18:42] Christopher Boorman: That's a great question for me. And I think it comes down to a personal decision for everyone is, "Do you separate the artist from the art?" And, and for me, I don't. I take it as a full package, because the arts for me is an expression of the artist. It comes from the artists, it is a part of them. And so for me, that can influence either positive or negative, depending on what the artist is like as a person. I, I remember reading that Bob had actually become a Christian in 1979 and he was ministered to, or discipled by, one of my favorite Christian artists named Keith Green, who is probably the only Christian artist that I really listened to. And Bob actually recorded three gospel albums, and being a Christian myself, those-- while not being his best-- I think it resonates with me in, in a very unique way. Then I would say " Shot of Love," the third and final gospel album, is my favorite of the three and probably one of my favorite Bob Dylan albums. I, my mom-- she, who was just wonderful-- I, she said, "Oh, wouldn't it be great if you could meet Bob Dylan." [00:19:56] And I explained to my mom, if you're the kind of person that goes and sees Bob Dylan 50 or more times, you're the last person that Bob Dylan wants to meet. His security team might want to meet me. Bob does not. Insane. He was asked in an interview, you know, "What do you think about the fans who, who follow you around and see you multiple times every tour?" And he said, "I think they need to get a life." And I don't take that too seriously. And I can understand why Bob would say that. But there's an old saying, "never meet your heroes." And we, we see that quite a bit. I was kind of shocked to hear that Ravi Zacharias, who was a great Christian apologist, who passed away a few months ago, came out after his death that there was some sexual harassment in his past. And it certainly surprised and saddened me, but you know, artists are flawed human beings just like their fans. But I do, if there's a long, drawn-out way to answer your question, but yes, I do consider the artists as part of the art and it does contribute to my appreciation for them. [00:21:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, that makes complete sense. So, yeah. And so I, you know, speaking itself is an art form, I think. And so I'm, I'm interested to hear more about what you're talking, what will, what you're doing now, and that is trying to build up this maybe --currently side gig-- but maybe it could be full time of being a speaker. And so I'm curious. What kind of speaking are you doing? Is it motivational? Is it funny? Is it, yeah, I'm just kinda curious about what your next step is. [00:21:41] Christopher Boorman: I would say that my specialty is teaching, which is not necessary thoroughly motivational. Others are much better than I. I prefer expository speaking, teaching particularly, you know, maybe Christian apologetics or history news, which is not to exclude motivation. I think the more I learned about Jesus, the more motivated I am to follow him. I attend a Thursday night a Bible study at a local church and occasionally I will do a lesson, and whenever I do, you know, people always seem to get a lot out of it. They always seem to appreciate it. And I've been told that, that I have a gift and I'm the kind of person who doesn't believe in himself until someone else does. I have to hear it from somebody else. And I have to probably have to hear it a couple of times before we actually start to believe them. Yeah. Anything that's complimentary about me and so I said, "Okay, you know, maybe I can do something with this gift of speaking and do something other than just go around telling people how they can double their sales in six months, you know, to do something of real value to people, something that would -- I hate to say change people's lives, 'cause I'm not the one changing their lives. God's the one that changes their lives-- when maybe I can reach people in a way that maybe somebody else could not". [00:23:08]And so that's where I'm at right now. And I, and I took a chance. I said, "All right, I'll, I'll start a YouTube channel, you know, and just upload short little sermons to it and see if anyone, to see if anyone cares." Yeah, it's it's taking a step, you know, it's trying, you know, if this is meant to be, then I've got to make the first move, however small. It's not just going to be dumped into my lap. I got to start something, take that first step. And, and even just taking that first step, even just in the trying is a victory of sorts. [00:23:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, absolutely. Yes. Every step towards your next goal is definitely a victory. So, yeah. Kudos to you. And so I'm curious, are you, are you hoping to do this professionally in a sense of becoming like a pastor, or are you thinking more sort of-- I'm just curious to know where, where you would ideally like this to take you, if, if it's meant to be. [00:24:14]Christopher Boorman: Yeah. If it's meant to be, a friend of mine at the Bible study, he kind of jokes. He says, "You know, maybe someday, you know, Pastor Chris." And that just sounds at this point in my life, at this point of me trying to make something out of this speaking career, that is just so overwhelming. Just hearing those two words next to each other, Pastor Chris it's, it's overwhelming. Who knows? Maybe someday. I, I certainly would not say no to it. Obviously. That's not something that you can just send in an application and get an interview, and great, you're hired. I mean, there's, there's some school involved and it takes a couple of years and it takes a couple bucks to get there, to be appropriately educated. [00:24:58] That's not to say I would shut the door on that. But if it does happen, it's not going to happen tomorrow. Maybe in the meantime, I can just be a guest speaker on maybe, maybe if the pastor goes on vacation and they need somebody to sub in and give a sermon in a local church for one week, or maybe at a religious group. You know, like the, I dunno, the rotary club or something like that, and just be a traveling itinerant pastor for a few years while I'm going through that education to become a full-time pastor. That's, that's one path that I see. [00:25:36]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. [00:25:37]Christopher Boorman: Ultimately it's up to God and then he's going to direct my path, and I've learned that it's best that I just get out of God's way. When I try to do things myself, I generally screw it up and royally. [00:25:50]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, don't we all? I mean, it's helpful to have a guiding hand, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, well, I'm sure there are some of our listeners who would love to connect with you and, and yeah, watch some of these YouTube videos that you've created. How could they connect with you? [00:26:11] Christopher Boorman: Sure. Just go on YouTube and type in Christopher Boorman Speaks and that's Boorman with two O's, and they can find my YouTube channel and enjoy some videos. And I'd love to, for people to stop by leave a comment, say "Hi." [00:26:27] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Excellent. Well, great. I absolutely love your story. It's so unique, just the way that, you know, you explored this artist's work in such an interesting way, like how you were inspired and then, you know, where it kind of led to, and just being a lifelong fan of Bob Dylan. That's pretty cool. So thank you for sharing that really interesting story. I just, I'm so-- I love that. I just love the fact that you were inspired and then you continued to pursue sorta that passion. So thank you for that. And I'm excited for you in this new endeavor too, and speaking, and you know, of course wish you the very best. I'm, I'm rooting for you, but I would love if it's okay with you to ask you the same quick three questions that I ask all of my guests. [00:27:19] Christopher Boorman: Absolutely. [00:27:20] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, perfect. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:27:26]Christopher Boorman: Generally speaking, I would say art is some kind of documented experience or a worldview that is intended to evoke either thought or emotion in the observer. [00:27:40]Lindsey Dinneen: Ooh, I like it. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:27:46]Christopher Boorman: Well, for me, the role of an artist is to share their art. It's to share with other people how they see the world, to share how they feel about the human experience. I hate to sound trite, but I'm reminded of that question, "If a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around, does it make a sound? So if you're creating art and you don't share it, then are you really an artist? You, you might have a hobby and that's just fine. You can make art for yourself. But I think for it to be art in its truest form, to be an artist, art needs to be shared, it needs to be enjoyed. [00:28:30]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, is-- do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, referring to inclusive as an artist who puts their art out into the world and provides  some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, just something to kind of help the viewer along. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to decide what they will. [00:29:07]Christopher Boorman: Sure. Well, of course either is acceptable. But based on my personality type, I'm more of a right brained, logical kind of person. So I prefer inclusive. I would say one of the goals of a work of art is to provide some kind of understanding of the artist and what they're trying to say. So if a, if a work of art is particularly bleak or complex, then I think some context is very helpful. It's certainly helpful for me. If I'm being asked to make up my own meaning for a work of art, well, then, "Who's the artist here," you know? What's the difference between this work of art and a bunch of random words and shapes and colors or sounds. Yeah. Either way. I'm the one ascribing meaning to it. So I prefer some context, especially for more complex works. [00:30:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah. That makes complete sense. Okay, well, thank you so very much for being here today, Christopher, I really enjoyed your stories and our conversation, and I wish you only the best in your future speaking career, whether that be as a pastor or like you said, sort of like an interim sort of role, but, but good for you for, for starting it and, and for your YouTube channel and all of that. And I'm just excited to see where that goes. So yeah, kudos to you and thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. [00:30:43] Christopher Boorman: Well, thank you, Lindsey. This has been a great honor and a pleasure for me. Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time, and success for your podcast. [00:30:52] Lindsey Dinneen: I appreciate that so much. And thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:31:07]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:31:17]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Sharon Glassman! Sharon is the creator, designer, and singer/songwriter of Smile Cards, and has a rich career history as a journalist, voiceover artist, podcast host, storyteller, and author. Her belief in serendipity, where "preparation meets opportunity," has led her along an amazing creative journey. Hear her share about the highs and lows of her life, and how she brings joy to the world through her homemade cards now. (Fun fact: the cover image is a photo of one of Sharon's cards!)   Get in touch with Sharon Glassman: www.smilesongs.com/vip | www.instagram.com/smile_songs  Enroll in Lindsey's dance and wellness courses: www.elevateart.thinkific.com  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 59 - Sharon Glassman Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi friends, whether you are just getting started or you're a seasoned professional looking to up your game, I have an exciting opportunity for you. Did you know that I am actually the creator of 10 different courses online that range from ballet, jazz, tap. They also include a mindset detox course and two Stretch and Tone courses. So if you're looking to start a new hobby or get a little bit fitter, or you're looking to do a deep dive into your mindset, really perform a true detox, I have the course for you, and I would love to help you out with that. So if you go to elevateart.thinkific.com, you will see all of the different courses I've created. [00:01:26] You don't have to step in a classroom to take your first dance class. I teach a signature 20 Moves in 20 Days course that allows you to learn 20 steps in just 20 days. It's a lot of fun. We have a great time together. And I think you're going to absolutely love the different courses. And artfully told listeners get a little something from me. So if you go, you'll sign up and use the promo code "artfullytold," all one word, and when you do so you'll get 15% off the purchase of any and all your favorite courses. All right, listeners, enjoy that. Again, it's elevateart.thinkific.com. See you there. [00:02:11]Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sharon Glassman. She is a multimedia artist and she is also the designer and songwriter of smiles, songs, cards, and gifts that sing, which I am just so excited about. So excited to hear her stories. So thank you so much for being here today. [00:02:41] Sharon Glassman: Thanks so much for chatting with me, Lindsey, I'm really excited to chat with you. [00:02:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yay! Well, I would love it if you would share just a little bit about your background, maybe what got you started. And I know you have had such a very cool career, so many different unique opportunities. So I just can't wait to dive in and hear all about them. [00:03:00] Sharon Glassman: Sure. Well, the first image that comes to mind that I feel like started me on the path here, creating cards and gifts that are designed to make folks really feel loved and seen and appreciated and happy, is sitting at my parents' kitchen table around the age of 10 and doing an illustrated book of an original poem. And I was cutting up pieces of paper and covering some of them in tinfoil to make this sort of like multi-layered 3D illustration thing. And I think that was the first step to getting here was sort of breaking the rules. But finding ways to make things combining different things, kind of like peanut butter and chocolate in an arty way to make folks feel good. [00:03:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Nice. Okay. And then I know you've done a vast number of things and I can't wait to hear about them, but do you want to speak more to what you're doing right now to start? [00:03:53] Sharon Glassman: Sure. So right now, I have a line of greeting cards for just because reasons about reaching out to a friend, plus the usual stuff like birthdays. I'm working on a new baby card right now. I'm super excited, holiday stuff, moms', dads' day, that kind of stuff. And the way that they sing is that I design a QR code and I link it back to an original song that I write to amplify the colors and the design and the message, because you know, when you're out in the world and something makes you feel happy, it usually doesn't just touch one of your senses with art. It usually engages several of them. So if you see a sunny day and there's a blue sky, and then the breeze blows and you smell a flower, that's a whole bunch of senses combining. And my challenge and a commitment has been, how do I create that feeling for folks? [00:04:51]Lindsey Dinneen: Neat! And I love the idea of including multiple senses in this experience, because I think, oh, that just makes it so much richer. Oh, neat. What a unique idea. Okay. How did you come up with that? [00:05:04]Sharon Glassman: It was an invitation. It was a creative challenge. Very briefly, because my career is a little non-linear, I started out being a terrified style writer in New York City. I'm an introvert by nature. So I function well when I'm listening, when I'm observing, and I really do want the answers to questions, but at that point in my life, I was just way too scared to go to a fashion designer and say, "Hey, let's talk." I was so scared about asking the wrong question. And that led me to hack my career for the first time. And what I began to do was tell stories on stage. I would ask people about their love life. I would ask people their love stories. I would ask questions, but I somehow wasn't scared when it wasn't journalism. [00:05:49] And then I would go share them to make people again, feel loved and appreciated for who they were. I traveled around the country doing this, and that led me to move to Colorado where I became a performing songwriter. And at that point, what had happened was folks in the audience, a lot of them introverts and kindhearted, highly sensitive people would say to me, "That song makes me feel really like you're talking to me and telling me about my best self. If only I could take you home and put you on my wall or have you around, because what I'm seeing when I hear you is so inspiring too." And I thought, "Yeah, let me think about that for a second, because I think I can make that dream come true." [00:06:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. How cool. Well, and I, I'm so intrigued. Okay. So you went from just feeling like you said, kind of fearful and introverted, and so, so was that kind of a discovery of that maybe journalism isn't for you? Or do you still dabble in that at all? Or what kind of happened with that component? [00:07:00] Sharon Glassman: Well, I think it's continued in a number of different ways. I feel like the words that I'm using on my card are a form of journalism because they come from really hearing what folks hear about and need. It's a little bit of copywriting too, which is something else I've done. But what happened for me was the minute that I found my comfort zone, which is an introverted comfort zone, I do things differently. I would never be the kind of journalist that you could send out to cover a five alarm fire or that kind of thing. But I am still a journalist who, on occasion, will do a feature about somebody. I just was doing a column in our local paper called "Ask the Introvert," where I was exploring lifestyle issues for introverts. It comes and goes-- the journalism part-- but really what I think it did was to train me to be observant, to take notes, to recognize a soundbite when I hear one, which again, leads to the lyrics in my songs and the messages on the audio. [00:08:03]Lindsey Dinneen: Right. Yeah. So it just has continued to impact you. And of course, those skills that you developed have obviously been useful throughout, you know, your career, even now. And that's, I think really cool how sometimes, you know, a path that we discover isn't for us can still-- those skills and those, those learning experiences that you had can be brought forward into something else. And I think that that's such a magical thing about recognizing that maybe the circumstance wasn't ideal, but this is still pretty cool what you get to do as a result, you know. Yeah, that's just special. All right. I have so many things to ask you about. Okay, so I know that you've also been a voiceover artists for cable TV. Can you share a little bit about that? How cool. [00:08:51]Sharon Glassman:  Sure. And that was a case of serendipity-- What is it? Preparation meeting opportunity. I had gone from being a journalist. I was a copywriter for a cable, big cable TV company. And again, it wasn't my happy place. There were moments that were really exciting that again, would train me about graphic design that I would use later, but I was pretty unhappy and I decided to get some training doing voiceover work and I'd put together my demo tape, my little cassette at that time. And I was down in the subway and I bumped into a guy from the cable company I worked for and he said, "You don't happen to do voiceover, do you? 'Cause I've got this thing that I think would be great for you." And I said, "As a matter of fact, here's my brand new demo tape." And he said, "Okay!" And he called me back and he said, "You're hired for this job." And at the same time, I went to a meet and greet opportunity and got signed by an agent. So I had an agent and a job and that let me transition away from my last corporate job and start sort of creating a career. That's a bit of a mosaic. So there are things that I focus on or I'm doing more at one time. And then there are kind of the backup singers of my career that then let me do things like voiceover, or maybe write an article while I focus on, you know, the business that I'm working on. [00:10:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, so cool. I love those stories of just that sort of serendipity, you know, things coming together, but it's not just random chance you had to do the work too, you know, like you had this demo tape, but that was something that you wanted to pursue and then opportunity intersected. And it was just cool. I love those stories. Awesome. And then I also know that you have been a podcaster yourself or co-host of a podcast and have a pretty cool connection there. Do you want to chat about that too? [00:10:45] Sharon Glassman: Sure. So after I moved to Colorado-- again, something that looked like a door closing or possibly burning down happened-- I was living out kind of in the suberbs. And there was a fire in the house next door that convinced me it was time to move. And I ended up moving up into the Hills to house sit and when I was doing that, somebody said, "Oh, you know, one of your neighbors is a writer for the "Golden Girls."" And I said, "I didn't know that," but I actually announced the Golden Girls on lifetime television back in New York on cable.  It's kind of like that one degree of separation. So they introduced us and we were talking. Yeah. And, he said, "Yeah, I'm going to be working on this podcast for an insurance company. It's branded, branded content as they call it in the business for baby boomers. Would you have any interest in helping me?" and I was like, "That would be awesome." And before you knew it, I was co-hosting it. And we ran for a year on terrestrial radio, both in LA and Colorado. And then of course, as you know, with podcasts, around the globe and perhaps beyond into the universe, that was pretty cool. [00:11:52] Lindsey Dinneen: That is super cool. Yeah. And, oh my goodness. Yes. I just love all these different, cool little things that you've gotten to do. And I know you've been an author as well. And you know, obviously as a journalist-- that, I mean, is obviously a form of writing-- but have you written your own book or what kind of authoring have you done? [00:12:13] Sharon Glassman: Sure. Again, the, the, the winding road that is my career led to some pretty nifty things. And I think we had talked just a little bit earlier that after I left journalism, I sort of hacked it and began telling reported stories on stage. And one story that really caught my attention --we're back in New York now-- was something at the time called Operation Santa Claus that had an amazing history. In New York City, there's a very large central post office. And it's a very dramatic building. It's a stunningly beautiful Beaux Arts building. And what I found out was that every year around Christmas time, they would take letters to Santa written by kids and families who needed help with gifts for themselves or gifts for each other, and they would make them available to the general public to answer. And this had been going on since the Great Depression. It started when people at that time needed help and postal workers would actually fulfill those letters. And then over the years, it grew into something just spectacular. And my joke about it was that the person who would just steal your cab a second earlier was stealing it to get to the post office to answer a letter. So it kind of brought out the best in New Yorkers. [00:13:22] And there were more letters than there were Santa's Secret Santas at that time. And I thought that that was-- I could help. So it's a combination of reporting on the story, but then also I had had an experience that I-- I tend to like to use my personal experiences, to show my foibles in a way to invite people, to not be scared of making a mistake, but to get involved and to help. I had gone to the post office and I come from a Jewish family, not a religious family, but a culturally Jewish family. So we weren't allowed to have Christmas. It was like the great forbidden guest. And this was a way for me to sneak in and be an anonymous Santa and get my Christmas fix at the same time. [00:14:01] And so I answered three letters and I made a ginormous mistake. I was just old enough to not know what the kids were wanting. And one of my letters asked for something, asked me for a First Down jacket. And I got very emotional. I was like, "This child has never had a down jacket. They want their first down jacket." I'm going to go get this the puffiest, warmest, dorkiest, you know, jacket that I can find. And the story that I would tell to invite other people to participate would be after running around town and getting this really-- as I said-- big puffy jacket, I managed to get it into the deadline and get it to the post office, mail it just in time, only to walk outside and see a really cool- looking little kid wearing a very thin down jacket with a big label on it that said First Down. [00:14:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh! Oh, no. So it was a brand. It wasn't a style. [00:14:55] Sharon Glassman: Right, right. [00:14:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, jeez Louise. That's hilarious. Oh my gosh. [00:14:59] Sharon Glassman: Right? And it took me back to a Christmas experience I had had as a kid when we, you know, when I was still a believer in Santa, when I wanted a Easy-Bake Oven. And Santa brought me a Suzy Homemaker Oven, and I was like, "What's wrong with Santa? Why doesn't Santa get that there's an enormous difference? One of these things is really cool and one of them is super dorky. I'll never be like that when I grow up." Oh yes, you will. [00:15:20]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my goodness. I love that story. And what a cool organization. I didn't, I wasn't aware of that. Is that in more cities than just New York or, you know, is that like more of a-- because it should be a national thing. That's really cool. [00:15:35] Sharon Glassman: It should be. Well, and I traveled around the country, I, that was the book that I published. It was called "Love, Santa." I got a book deal with Warner Books, which is now I think Grand Central Publishing. And we turned it into kind of a holiday gift book with a how-to at the end. So you can have your own "Love, Santa" party. I traveled around to companies and you know, how folks in companies would be like, "Oh, it's Secret Santa time. Great. I'm going to get you a soap and you'll get me a lip balm. And we'll both be like, what else? "But this, instead I would come in and say, "Let's maybe not do that.  You can answer letters to kids and families together and buy food and clothing and beds." And so that was remarkable. And I traveled around the country with those letters from New York, but I believe that there must be, or were other programs like that throughout the country. It's just people are so good at heart, and this was a great way for everyone to come together and make a difference. And it was, it was a pretty great experience. [00:16:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is so good. And I'm totally gonna read that book because I just, I was so inspired by that story and yeah, that, that is cool. I, I hope that it is something that I can participate too locally or start or something I'm like, "Oh my goodness, this is just fantastic." Well, yeah, I'm sure that you have, you know,  obviously such an amazing career and, and all of that. And where do you see yourself kind of going from here? Obviously you're building your business, which is fantastic and a huge time-taking endeavor, but are there other things that you're continuing to kind of dabble in on the side, or things like in the future you want to kind of pursue too? [00:17:11] Sharon Glassman: Well, I have a musical duo with the man I call my fiddle beau, which is a little bit of a pun, the  B E A U . I am a nerd. I'm a nerdy punster. And we're called the Jamison's Duo and we play jazz-inspired or jazz-influenced bluegrass. He comes from Kentucky, he comes from the bluegrass state. So we continue to do that. And that's fun on the side. Yeah. And right now I'm moving into wholesaling for my business. And so it's interesting because, because I'm writing music as well as designing products. I've learned how to record at home. And so I'm working on the next set of songs for the next set of designs for the next, you know, working on Christmas 2021 right now, and looking ahead to 2022. So I'm really in a learning phase as I expand from retail into wholesale. And that is really where my time and focus is now. But you know, there's always the creative pursuits of like baking stuff and cooking stuff, 'cause you got to eat while you do all this art stuff. [00:18:13] Lindsey Dinneen: That is so true. And if you make it fun, you know, by being creative, then it's, it's a lot more enjoyable of a process and doesn't feel like a chore. [00:18:21]Sharon Glassman: Yeah, and I think that these things inspire each other too. I just, I just did a new greeting card that I'm really excited about and it says, "Season your life with love." And it has a bowl with hearts in it, and you know, the salt shaker putting love into your food, which then puts love into your life. And I think all these things are really tied together. It's that sensory, cross sensory concept again. [00:18:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I absolutely agree. And so I'm curious --I'm sure that you've had so many moments during your career so far, during your life so far, that kind of stand out, but I'm, I'm wondering if there are specific ones that stand out in your memory either when you witnessed somebody experience your own art, or when you experienced somebody else's art, where it was just sort of this like moment that mattered. I need to file this away and remember. [00:19:10]Sharon Glassman: Wow. Such a great question. There are a couple, I have a couple of both, I guess. There was a moment-- there was a stage storyteller whose name was Spalding Gray, and he really defined the genre of standing up on a stage and telling a story, his were usually from his life, as opposed to reported usually, but he was just a master of that genre and seeing him definitely changed my life, both creatively and just inspired me. And I had a big art crush on him and actually got to almost meet him after a show. He performed at someone's home in Philadelphia, but introvert was too scared to talk to him, which then of course became a story about not talking about the person that you're talking to, the person that you want to talk to you.  Seeing him was life-changing. Hearing a lot of the music that I hear here in Colorado, we're very close to a town that I call the Nashville of Colorado and the musicians around here that we just get to hear and play with on a daily basis-- that's been a life-changing experience. Yeah. I mean, and seeing them like in the grocery store, I mean, you're like, "Oh, hello, music person." And now with pandemic zooming, we're able to see shows coming in from Nashville on a weekly basis. So we have our little Chinese food/ Nashville, bluegrass situation going on in our house on Friday nights, where we bring in Chinese food and then sit on the side of the table that faces the TV, down in the TV room, and dial up insanely talented, like world-class musicians and it's kind of like we have a front row to these concerts, so that's pretty exciting. [00:20:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that is super exciting. And it's so fun too, because you know, okay. So obviously the pandemic has been very challenging for many, many, many people. And there, there are a lot of difficult things as a result, but at the same time, to hear from artists who've kind of learned to adapt and pivot and, and now like the world opened up, you know, and we have these super cool opportunities to see a concert that we might not have been able to before, or would have been very challenging to try to get there or something. And so it's, you know, on one hand, it's maybe not the way that we would have wished that it came about, but it's pretty cool what we get to do and who we get to see and experience that maybe otherwise we wouldn't have. [00:21:49]Sharon Glassman: I do think the digital aspect of the arts right now was probably trending to this place but was definitely jump-started by the situation that we find ourselves in. I think more and more, and especially as an introvert, again, getting back to this, so things that other people find fun, for me personally, it can be just exhausting. I need to go to bed for a day afterwards, just because I've had all the feels, and all the feels like kind of exhausted all the energies. The digital world for me is a very comfortable place. And again, going back to the QR codes that make my card sing, finding that digital piece. And before that, I had done a podcast that I published on bottles of wine with a local winery here, again, using QR codes. [00:22:37] And so I had an entire cast of local people who are actors and non-actors performing this novel that I wrote with, which I wrote songs for ,and the way that we were able to deliver it was-- and I'll do a little parenthetical-- I think being in the same place at the same time increasingly is not a thing that's viable for lots of people at lots of situations. So where you used to try and get the largest live audience you could to see what you were doing, and that meant that you, it was working. I think now we're kind of pixelated and each of us has a desire to see something when we want to see it or here to experience it. And that may be where art is going is more of a one-on-one albeit digital connection. [00:23:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I like that. Well, and I think there's value to that too, because it makes it feel more personal and yeah, just a little bit more of an accessible, sort of intimate way of experiencing art, and that is special. Yeah. And you're right, because, you know-- so I'm a dancer and I have a professional dance company and we would define success on some level, just on a practical level, I would say-- but yeah, the number of tickets that we sold to our shows-- and it's interesting because, you know, on a more fundamental level, our whole goal is to bring joy and inspiration to people. And so that can happen in a lot of different ways, even more so now with us, you know, kind of pivoting even our own direction and filming and doing that kind of thing. And it doesn't, yeah, the  reach is, is different, but it, it's exciting. [00:24:20]Sharon Glassman: Well, I can't wait to watch you guys dance online. You have to send me a link. So this is really exciting to me because now I love watching dance and yeah, I would love to see that now. And I know you, and now I'm like super excited. Like I can't wait to see you. But this is, this is how this happens through a podcast, which is a digital medium. And if it didn't exist, we might not have connected. 'Cause I don't know the next time I'm going-- I've never been to Kansas City and I don't know that you've been to Longmont, Colorado-- but we're connected and now I can see your stuff and you can hear my stuff. And who knows, maybe there's a collaboration down the road that comes from that or some other things. So I think that is a really exciting 21st century arts creation and progress that has so many ramifications. I don't think we know them all yet, but we are exploring them, which is pretty cool. [00:25:07] Lindsey Dinneen: It is. Yes. I couldn't agree more. I'm so excited about yes, all of these artistic collisions. I'll put it, put it that way. And, the opportunities that can kind of come from a more open world, in a sense, and it's, it's exciting, good things are coming. Well, I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you and, you know, support and follow your work. Is there a way for them to do that? [00:25:34]Sharon Glassman: Absolutely. In terms of social media, I tend to be more of an Instagram person, and on Instagram I am smile underscore songs, but yeah, you can always get to me and find the Insta link and all that good stuff on my website, which is just smilesongs.com. And for your listeners, if they would like a little discount on cards and gifts that sing, you can sign up at smilesongs.com/vip, and then you'll get my news and find out what's going on and get the 20% off coupon and all that groovy stuff. So I think those are probably the two places and you can always reach me. There's a contact button there. So you can say hi, or ask me a question. I'm always excited to hear from people and find out maybe what they want. Like maybe there's a, a card or a message that they need in their life. And I'm always excited to hear about that. [00:26:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's super cool. Well, yeah. Thank you also for being so generous. I am so excited that you shared that with us and we can go and support your work. So thank you for that. I love it. Well, I always ask my guests the same three questions if you're okay with that. [00:26:55] Sharon Glassman: Oh, yes. [00:26:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, good. Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:27:04] Sharon Glassman: Wowza! That's sounds like one of those great, like questions of all time, like, you know, what is the meaning of life kind of thing? How do you define art? Wow. I think it's a feeling generated by a selective something. So it could be a painting. It could be a dance. It could be a song, but I think it's that combination of created experience and emotion. [00:27:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Love it. Excellent. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:27:46]Sharon Glassman: I think if you truly believe it, see it, want to share it. That I think is probably what makes art, art. There's something there that's just intrinsically real. [00:28:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit. Is do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And what I mean by that is inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration versus an artist who puts their work out into the world, but doesn't provide context behind it. So it's exclusive in the sense that it's left entirely up to the viewer or the participant to see what they will. [00:28:43] Sharon Glassman: Wow. That's really interesting. Okay. I think both of those things. I'm going to go for both of, both of the, all of the above, because I can imagine-- I'm just picturing an art gallery. For some reason, I can picture walking in an art gallery and actually the exhibit being a series of paintings that have no title cards whatsoever, followed by a room where we see the same paintings with the title cards. And that experience would be super cool. Somebody do that and then let us know where it is so we can go. 'Cause that would be really cool. 'Cause you would be looking at the art and making up your own story and then you would be going into the other room and seeing either a curated version of that or the artist version of that. [00:29:27] But you know, so many paintings are called "Untitled." And I know that that gives us some information about like, you kind of go, "Oh, that's super cool. That person called their thing "Untitled." They're really pretty. Let me look at that. Well, it's a white, all white canvas called "Untitled." Dude, that's so deep." It's interesting. I think they're both interesting experiences, so I'm yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to stick with my, all of the above. [00:29:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Perfect. Love it. Okay. Well, Sharon, thank you so very much for being here today. I really appreciate it. And I loved hearing your stories, career, your, your life has been so interesting. And I just love hearing how all the different things have sort of intersected and collided a little bit into what you're doing right now, and how it's all kind of, you know, the writing, the singing, the storytelling, just all of those things are sort of woven into what you're doing now, and I just think that's really cool and special. So thank you for sharing your art with the world. I think it, I know it matters. I know it makes a difference in people's lives. And I, I know that I just appreciate that you do that. So thank you. And thank you again for being here today. This has been so fun. [00:30:36] Sharon Glassman: Lindsey, it's been delightful chatting with you, and I cannot wait to see you dance. This is really exciting. New friends, new friends, new art, or like I'm excited. It's going to make my day happier. I love this idea of spreading the joy through art and conversation. [00:30:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yay. Yes, absolutely. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two and we will catch you next time. [00:31:07]If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told. [00:31:17]Hi friends. I wanted to share with you another podcast that I think you're going to fall in love with just as I have. It's called Harlem with a View, and it is hosted by Harlem Lennox, who was a previous guest of mine on Artfully Told and a dear friend. Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. There is so much that goes into the work of your creative. She wants to know how the artists got into their line of work, what inspires them, but most importantly, what keeps them going? She'd asked them about how they make it through the blood, sweat, and tears. She wants to know what it's like to live this creative life: the good, the bad, the ugly, and even the magical. So she goes behind the scenes with creatives, from different genres and she explores their history, their take on life and talks about the business of art and the dedication of making art. She has a brilliant, brilliant platform. I think you will fall in love. I highly recommend that you search for Harlem with a View. Thanks!

In today's episode, I welcome Anthony Saldana & Jason Figueira! Anthony and Justin have been collaborating ever since they met in college, and are the writers, filmmakers, and producers of two documentaries to far: "Straight Off the Canvas" and "We're Ordinary People." Their work showcases blind artists and the way that they perceive and create beautiful artwork. (Fun fact: the cover image is a little behind-the-scenes of fliming "Straight Off the Canvas!")   Get in touch with Anthony Saldana & Justin Figueira: www.facebook.com/staightcanvas | www.twitter.com/straightcanvas  Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 58 - Anthony Saldana & Jason Figueira Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am just so excited to have as my guests today, two wonderful people. They are the producers and creators of the documentary, Straight Off the Canvas," and they are Anthony Saldana and Jason Figueira and I'm just so happy that you all are here. Thank you so much for being here, guys. And I can't wait to dive in. [00:01:00] Anthony Saldana: It's good to be here. [00:01:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. [00:01:03] Jason Figueira: It's wonderful to be here. [00:01:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Awesome. Well, I would love if you would just share a little bit maybe about your background and your story and what got you involved and in art in general, but then I know you guys have this powerful documentary that you've recently produced.  I would just love to hear all about that. [00:01:25] Anthony Saldana: Sure. We are two guys from Queens, New York. My name is Anthony and I was born in Queens, New York, and really was always interested in being a creative person, and really didn't find the right outlet until college. I was in, in high school. I had a lot of creative energy, but didn't have the right outlet. And then in college I met Jason. And we just formed such a great friendship. We really didn't do much like television or class, too many production classes together. We went to Queens College together and really formed a great friendship during that time. And we both graduated in 2008 and from there, you know, I started a career in customer service in New York City, but never left my, my love and passion for video and television. And I would always have an idea working in my head, and I share ideas with Jason, and we've been kind of collaborating together over the last has it been like 12 years, 13 years, Jason? [00:02:36] Jason Figueira: Yeah, I would say about 12 years, actually. [00:02:38]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That's incredible.   You met in college and then went from there, and wow, so this friendship has just evolved and grown over the years and, and now you guys make really cool things together. That's awesome. So I'm so curious. I know, you know, Anthony, you talked a little bit about dabbling in art and how art has been a part of your life. And Jason, I'm curious, how has art been a part of your life as well? Or what's your background and story too? [00:03:09] Jason Figueira: Well ,in high school I had a different story. I wanted to work in animation.  I wouldn't say I was bad at drawing, but I didn't have enough patience to sit down and learn how to draw professionally. And I had all these great ideas in my head of what I wanted something to look like, but just getting it down on paper was so difficult. And I'd see kids who, it seemed like they had a natural gift for drawing. And I was like, "Aw, man, I'd like to do that." But when I went to college, I was just going to major in computer science and just do creative work on the side. And I decided, you know what? If I'm going to do computer science, I'm going to end up being here for a long time, because I'm not good at math either. So I went through my careers handbook and I saw Media Studies, and I said, you know what? I have, I wanted to do something creative. Maybe it should be my career first and foremost. Because my heart wasn't really in computer science. I love technology. I loved working with computers, but that wasn't really going to be what I wanted to do as a main career. [00:04:17] And so I joined Media Studies and I just went in, took some of the beginning classes and from there on out, everything about the field just interested me. And when I met Anthony, it was in one of, one of the computer science classes. And,  when I talked to him, I was like, "Oh, we're going to get along. It really seems like we're going to get along here." And from there on out, we've just been, you know, doing creative work because it's, it's what we love to do, you know, plain and simple. That's just really what it is. So, yeah. That's how I got started in here and I'm still looking to write for animation and I just, you know, do it in my spare time too. But thanks to media, I'm able to develop my creative energy even more so. That's where I fall in this story. [00:05:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's fantastic. Well, and I love your-- I can relate to this so much because I'm sort of, one of those want to be really good fine artist, but I... nope. Nope. It's just not in my wheelhouse. It's like I see-- I remember my art teacher back in-- oh, gosh, I think of middle school-- just, I mean, bless his heart. He tried so hard with me and I just could not translate what I was looking at on to a paper. Just never made sense. [00:05:41]Anthony Saldana:  I think I can relate. [00:05:43] Jason Figueira: I completely understand. [00:05:45]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. It's so funny. And I just have so much respect for fine artists who can just look at something and go, "Oh yeah, I can totally see where all the shadows are and how you need to, you know..." I, anyway, just that's an aside, but yes I can relate is really what I'm boiling this down to. So. Okay. So then you guys obviously hit it off and, you know, started collaborating. So have you guys done more than the documentary? And I can't wait to hear more about that specifically, but also before that, have you worked on other projects together as well? [00:06:21] Anthony Saldana: Yes. Our, our first documentary that we did was a documentary about visually impaired activists here in New York City called, "We're Ordinary People." I don't have a visual impairment, but I was just interested in how blind people perceive art. And I picked up a book one day and it was "Ordinary Daylight" by Andrew Potok. And he is basically an artist who is going blind and is, is so affected by that. That traumatic turning point in his life that he does a, a therapy of where bees sting his eyes for him to gain some recovery. And reading that book really affected me. So I told Jason that I wanted to do a documentary about blind people and knowing that there's not too many films or TV shows about that show blind people in such a positive way or at all on television. So I felt that it was important to do a documentary about, about blind activists and what, what blind people need here, you know, in the community. And then I can have a right to do a documentary about blind painters. So I'd kind of pitched that idea to Jason and he was excited. He was actually attending grad school at the time. So. It gave him an opportunity to get out there in the field. [00:07:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. That's such a cool story. And also I'm cringing so much about the bee stings. Oh man. [00:08:01] Anthony Saldana: Right, right. And I was too, and that's why it just affected me so much. Do you know, you think about like, yeah, I just picked up the book thinking, "I want to know how a blind person perceives art," and that's that, you know, I got to find his story. So. [00:08:18] Lindsey Dinneen: That's so cool. And so Jason, can you share more about your reaction when Anthony shared this vision with you and sort of how that spoke to you and what that kind of led to? [00:08:31] Jason Figueira: Sure. So when Anthony called me one night and he was telling me about his idea that he wanted to film, I was looking for way to start practicing what I had learned in grad school. I think I'd been there for about a year, a year and a half. And I was going to Hofstra at the time and they had just started their documentary program and I was very eager to really test out my skills and, you know, really see what I was capable of. And when he told me about this story, I was very intrigued because I never really stopped to think about how would a blind person perceive art. And I said, you know what? This is, this is something I'd like to learn about too. So it wasn't just a way for me to practice my skills. It was a way for me to learn about an aspect of a community I had rarely ever interacted with. [00:09:28] And I said, you know, this is, this is one aspect of documentary is-- you're kind of like an anthropologist and you're going to a new culture you've never interacted with before. And you're learning about everything about them and, you know, their different characteristics, personalities. And I think when we went on this adventure, I think we came out with a new appreciation for the blind community, especially in the art field. And especially after this, doing this film, I got to say that even some of the work I've seen from blind artists, it reminded me of high school. They were like those kids who could draw. It was amazing watching someone like Elizabeth Castellano make a painting. It was absolutely beautiful. I just said, you know what? I had never stopped to think about this, you know, and this film was like a window into learning about how art was not just a visual medium, but really a medium for our other senses. And I, I gotta say I'm really glad I went with Anthony on, on this film and supported him because it's been an excellent adventure to say the least. [00:10:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I can imagine. That is so cool. And see, that's one of the things that I just love the most about art is the fact that it does open our eyes to other perspectives and other experiences that maybe we haven't gone through or don't have a lot of knowledge of or whatever. But when you are able to bring art into the mix and share your stories through it, it's so cool how it can connect people and make you think about things in ways that you wouldn't have otherwise, maybe. That's really cool. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So then you also have done "Straight Off the Canvas." Can you tell us more about that? [00:11:35] Anthony Saldana: Yes.  So once I completed the "We're Ordinary People" documentary about the blind activist, you know, I was really excited because that documentary itself won a number of awards. And I felt like it was, it was time be able to tell a story about visually impaired artists. So  I was trying to research about artists who had visual impairments here in New York City. And I, I found a news article for the New York Times about an artist who was legally blind and teaching art in the New York City Public School System. And she had a website, so I contacted her and her name was, is Elizabeth Castillano. And so in the moment I sent the email to her, she was so excited. And the funny thing is that, that I never knew that. You know, I thought it was going to-- I didn't think that that journey was going to take 10 years-- but that process of, you know, calling her and say, "Hey, can I interview" that that happened in 2011.  So the documentary itself is really about not only Elizabeth, but we went out to Lavelle School for the Blind, which is in the Bronx, New York. [00:12:50] And we interviewed the art teacher, Jessica Jones, who was also blind, teaching her blind students preparing them for an art show. And I also felt that it was important to have the Art Beyond Sight, which is in Oregon, a nonprofit organization that helps make art museums accessible for visually impaired. I really felt that it was very important for them to be them to be included in the film because, you know, it's not just about any classroom-- art should be accessible in the museums. And so we, we focused a lot on that and how art can be healing and a therapy for not just for, for blind people, but everyone. Art is a therapy and, and can really help us through some dark times, especially during the pandemic. [00:13:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Jason, do you have anything to add to that experience from your own perspective? [00:13:56]Jason Figueira: I have to say when I, I think-- one of my favorite parts of the film, one of my favorite parts of production rather-- was filming the art show because watching some of their creations-- it, it was truly beautiful. I know we were filming two of their students who created Maleficent from Disney's, "Snow White." And it was, it was absolutely beautiful. And a lot of the art there wasn't just a project. A lot of the art was personal to them. They were, some of them had mentors, parents, friends that had motivated them to, to basically keep going. And it was wonderful to see not only how beautiful their art was, but how connected they were with it. [00:14:44]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Wow. Oh my goodness. I cannot wait to see this. I've I've got to hop on this, clearly. That's that sounds... [00:14:52] Anthony Saldana: We've got a VIP link just for you. [00:14:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Fantastic. Oh, so cool and special. You know, it's so interesting that you, that that was the subject of your documentary. I have a friend here in Kansas City who is a fine artist, and she's brilliant. I mean, I think her work is just incredible, and her name is Katheryn Krouse and she's actually one of the guests that I've interviewed before, but she is kind of in a similar situation, where she is in the process of losing her eyesight and it makes her art so much more vibrant. I mean, the colors that she chooses are just bright and splashy, and she chooses like very joyful sort of, you know, gorgeous settings. And it's just so cool to hear her story, and I think that sometimes, you know, when you don't have the ability to experience life with all of your senses in the way that you might prefer, it's so interesting to hear the perspective or see the art that comes out because it's beautiful and special. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. [00:16:08] Anthony Saldana: I definitely wanted to interview, you know, different women with different stories. So, Elizabeth who's a, the main subject of our film, she was born legally blind, and then at the age of 13, had surgery so she would gain some sight, but still is legally blind and has a dog. And I also interviewed Jessica Jones, who lost her sight as an adult due to diabetes. So, you know, everyone has their own different story, but it's really the, I think the point really is that, you know, they, they found a way to continue making the work that they're passionate about. And really that motivated, that motivated us in ways that I never expected when we started. [00:16:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, I'm sure there are some moments either from the film or through your own life experiences, whether it was, you know, watching someone experience your own art or whether you experienced art that kind of stick out to you in your memory as, "Hey, I've got to file this away. This is, this is a moment to remember." Do you two have those stories to share? [00:17:20]Anthony Saldana: Jason, you want to start? [00:17:22]Jason Figueira: Yeah. I mean, we have a lot of stories between all of the films we've done. We've been on incredible journeys. I've got to say that the most unforgettable story was when we did our first film "We're Ordinary People," and we had to go to New Jersey to film a blind rabbi, and I remember so well because it was a day that was so beautiful, but getting home was so tragic because we basically took a bus to Jersey and then we had a cab take us to where that rabbi had lived. I think it was in the Demarest and we tried to get home the same way. We were going to take a cab to the bus stop. The bus stop was probably three or four miles away. So we said, "Okay, we're going to take a cab back." We call the cab company and they're like, "Oh no, we're done for the day." [00:18:20]Anthony Saldana: This, this is before Uber. [00:18:23] Jason Figueira: This is before Uber, mind you. So we now have--  we looked at each other and we said, "All right, we have no choice but to walk it. We turned on our camera and we just documented our terrible three to four mile hike in the summer, in blazing summer weather and just literally telling jokes as much as we can to get our minds off the fact that we're walking three to four miles to get to a bus stop, and pray to God we can reach there before sundown.  [00:19:01] Anthony Saldana: We passed a Dunkin Donuts and I thought that I had seen heaven because I had never been so excited to see Dunkin Donuts. And then, and then I pass right by it. And there was a pizzeria. I'm like, "Ahhhh! Water!" I felt like I was in the desert... [00:19:20] Jason Figueira: It's like in Loony Tunes films when they see a mirage. [00:19:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Oh my goodness. Yes. You know what I love about that story too, is, you know, I talk about this quite a bit and, you know, my guests who, who are involved in the arts, which I suppose on some level is everyone. Right? They, we talk a lot about how there's so much work behind the arts and it's so worth it, but the glamour happens 1% of the time and the other 99% of the time is, yeah, you guys having to walk the three to four miles. [00:19:59] Anthony Saldana: Right? I mean, it's true. And it's on YouTube, the entire walk, we filmed it all. As for me, I have a, more of a... so in 2012, I was in the beginning of production for a documentary and I had a, a really traumatic workplace accident. It was an accident that affected my back and my neck. And it, I was supposed to do an interview with Elizabeth, you know, very, very soon. And I had then tell her that I was, you know, dealing with a medical issue that, you know, I still deal with to this day. And when I called her, she told me that she herself was having personal issues with, with physical issues, you know, with her back. And so we were just like committed. I found a therapy buddy in the person that was supposed to interview, who I really didn't know. And I just said, "Look, I know that this horrible thing has just happened to me. But I really want to tell your story." And in, in her head, she had something really, really traumatic happened to her. And she said to me that she wanted me to tell her story and we really bonded in that moment. And at the same time, Jason was having his physical issue, which we found inspiration from, and is going to be a future film of ours. You want to take that, Jason? [00:21:31] Jason Figueira: Oh, well, sure. So in 2012 while Anthony was planning his next film and I was, you know, helping out with some suggestions or so, I began to experience early symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder. And I had not known I was obsessive compulsive. I knew what it was, but I didn't know I was obsessive compulsive until I turned 26, and pretty much it exploded out of control and I couldn't stop fixing things. I couldn't do basic functions for myself anymore. I became completely shut in and I couldn't leave my house.  I lived with my parents and I could not leave my house. I couldn't even leave the corner of my house. It was so bad. And I one day went to a priest that we had known, me and Anthony had known, and he recommended I see a therapist. And that therapist said you have OCD. I don't know how to do behavioral therapy. So I recommend you go to Mount Sinai which is a hospital here in New York. It's a pretty well-known hospital and they have a center strictly for helping OCD patients. And I went there and I found out, well, they have a scale from one to 40 of how obsessive compulsive someone is. And on that scale out of 40, I rated about a 39. So I was really bad. I needed take medication and I needed behavioral therapy. So I spent about a good year and a half in behavioral therapy even before I could resume helping Anthony film "Straight Off the Canvas." So it was pretty tough when I was filming with him. I was in the throws of just recovering from my mental illness and it was a very dark period. It was, it really was tough, but thanks to friends like Anthony, you know, I was able to fight it. I chose not to give up and here I am today talking about film on your podcast, right? [00:23:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Oh my goodness. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you so much for sharing that and being, you know, honest and vulnerable.  I'm sure that's not a particularly easy thing to share, but I really appreciate it. And, and thank you for that, because I'm know that your story is going to impact so many people and I'm so excited that you all are going to be producing another documentary. That is really cool. Both of you, thank you. I'm just, I'm so inspired by what you all are doing. And I think, you know, documentaries are such a powerful way to share stories and to bring about just a conversation that might be otherwise difficult to have or uncomfortable to have. And it's really cool that what your work does brings art to lots of people in a very unique way. So thank you for doing what you're doing. [00:24:40] Anthony Saldana: I appreciate that. And, you know, I felt like I had to share our story because the set was misty-eyed like, if you would ask me, like, "What's your dream project?" This is my dream project. And, and there, there was something very emotional about, about being able to film her painting, because  Elizabeth talks about painting as her therapy and that's what gets her through the dark days and, you know, being able to film her painting was that therapy for us. So it's just a, really a beautiful story. [00:25:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it really is. And again, that's the power of the arts is it doesn't just affect the person who's doing it, but it affects the viewer or the participant. And then those effects just can have a snowball effect for other people. And then that's why, if you feel inspired to create on any level in any medium, please do so, because you just don't know what kind of impact you're going to have on yourself and on the world. You just don't know. Yeah, that is so cool, guys. Well, this is amazing and I'm sure that our listeners would love to, you know, interact with you, connect with you, and also support your work. So is there a way for us to connect with you and where can we watch your documentaries? [00:26:08] Anthony Saldana: Sure. We're on Twitter. You can find us at, @straightcanvas, on Facebook is facebook.com/straightcanvas. We'll have all our information up on those social media sites. I'm trying to develop a, a website. When it does come up, we already purchased the domain of straightoffthecanvas.com. But right now you can find us on Twitter and we'll be able to update you guys on when the site will be up and ready and when our documentary will be in, in your area, because I want to definitely get it out to Kansas City. [00:26:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Good. And you have a very  willing and excited audience in Kansas City. I'm not actually from here originally. And when I moved here, I just had this amazing recognition of how supportive of the arts Kansas City is. So you found your people, they will be receptive for sure. [00:27:05] Anthony Saldana: Now I have a question for you though. So, so you're a dancer, right? Okay. So I'm a single guy. Like what, what's a good dance move I should learn as a single guy? [00:27:21] Jason Figueira: Just don't fall! [00:27:23] Anthony Saldana: Cause I got two legs, you know? [00:27:26] Jason Figueira: But you still, you would still manage to fall with two legs. [00:27:31] Anthony Saldana: I would! I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to help the single male audience that are trying to get some help! [00:27:39] Jason Figueira: Precisely. [00:27:41] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. Well, have you seen the movie "Hitch?" [00:27:44] Anthony Saldana: Yes, yeah. [00:27:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. You know the scene where Will Smith is teaching-- gosh, what's his name? The other main character-- anyway, how to dance? And he's like, "You live right here," and it's like a step touch, which is basically like a step to the side. And then you like put your other foot in. Yeah. I mean that, you just got to start somewhere, but honestly my husband's also not a dancer. He wouldn't consider himself to be, I think, in any way. But I think what worked for him was his willingness to try and just put himself out there. And if he looked a little silly, it didn't matter because I was just so impressed that he was trying. [00:28:26] Anthony Saldana: Okay. [00:28:27] Lindsey Dinneen: That's my advice. Just be you. [00:28:31]Jason Figueira:  So will Carlton's dance work too from "The Prince of Bel-Aire?" [00:28:36] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh man. [00:28:36]Anthony Saldana: He's been perfecting that for years. [00:28:41] Jason Figueira: Look, you got to try somewhere. [00:28:43] Lindsey Dinneen: You do. And honestly, I think it's the effort that matters more than the results. Let's be real. Yup. Yup. Oh my word. That was fantastic. Yes. And if I come up with any other life advice, I'll I'll pass it along, but that's, that's my initial thoughts. Oh my gosh. Well this has been so much fun. I would love to ask you to the same three questions that I ask all my guests, if you're okay with that. [00:29:15] Anthony Saldana: Sure. [00:29:16] Jason Figueira: Sure. [00:29:19]Lindsey Dinneen:  All right, here we go. So, first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:29:27] Anthony Saldana: Hmm, well, art can be a lot of things. It's something that you can make. You know,  you can express yourself in so many different ways and it doesn't matter the material that you use or the sense that you use. You can make something in two dimensional, three dimensional.  You can use your body as a dancer, like you, Lindsey, you're an artist, even though you say you can't do a drawing, but you can express yourself with your body. It's really about using your soul to basically express yourself to the world. [00:30:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I love that.  And I, I love your use of the word "soul" and just the way that you described it, because I always tell people that I dance because it inspires my soul. And I think that that is what's so special about art and, you know, that's why I dance. But other people paint or sing, or, or, yeah. Oh, I love that. Jason, how about you? [00:30:31] Jason Figueira: I would say I would, I, I remember someone from one of our Queens College courses, he was a Chinese film historian, and he had said that about films that they were kind of like a window into a director's mind. And I think that art in a way is a advanced form of communication. It's trying to communicate something, not just with words, but with sounds, with touch, something that it can appeal to almost all five senses. And I think it's like a window into someone's experience that it goes beyond just saying spoken dialogue we use every day. It's really helps other people. It helps bring them into an environment where an artist would like them to be your image, shaping a whole new reality in a way. And it's amazing what you can do with art. I mean, just from one picture, someone can leave their present day and be transported into a whole new one. So art, yeah, I would say is a very highly advanced form of communication. [00:31:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:31:52] Anthony Saldana: Tell the truth. Just tell your own truth and also try to find your own. I know that stories have been told and retold, but try to find your own angle to, to put your own expression on, on a different take on a story. But I, I really believe in, in being honest in your work. [00:32:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I agree. Jason? [00:32:20] Jason Figueira: I think persistence is also something very important for an artist to have, because when you have a passion to tell a story, you don't give up telling it. There are a lot of obstacles that come up in any different kind-- dancing, whether it's painting, whether it's film or so many things that come up in your way. But as long as you have your passion to tell a story, you will overcome those obstacles. And I'd say, you know, there's an expression: a genius is 90% hard work and 10% ideas. So really it's about how much work you put into it. So I would say persistence is absolutely key for an artist to have, is absolutely a key quality rather, for an artist to have. [00:33:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, I absolutely agree. It's all about the grit behind the passion. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I remember hearing one time somebody said that ideas without action are worthless. And I was kind of taken aback and I thought, "Oh, ouch, that hurts." Like, "Excuse you." But the reality is he was right. You know, you have to have both. So awesome. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive. And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether it's a title or show notes or the inspiration. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who does put their work out there, but doesn't provide the context, so it's left solely up to the viewer to determine what they will. [00:34:07]Anthony Saldana: I like metaphors.  I love putting in my documentaries open-ended metaphors so that people can-- I don't like to have voiceovers to tell the audience what they should feel. And that's something that Jason and I, we've argued about many times over the last couple of years where he likes to just, Jason will say, "I want to tell them how, you know this..." and a great voiceover. And I said, "Nope, not me." So I hope that answers your question, Lindsey. [00:34:40]Lindsey Dinneen:  I like that. And, but Jason, how about you? It sounds like you might have a slightly different perspective too. [00:34:45]Jason Figueira: I think it depends on what kind of work an artist is doing. Some artwork is best left exclusive, you know, that's where their strength comes from. I think it mostly depends on what kind of art that artist is producing. From my style, I like to explain everything because I like to hear myself talk, but the point is, it depends on the project, really, for some projects being inclusive makes it stronger. So it works being an inclusive piece, but there are some pieces that are best left exclusive. So I think it really depends on what kind of project and artist is working on. [00:35:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you both again, so very much for being here today. I'm so excited to learn about what you all do and also then to, you know, get to experience your art and the way that you're supporting other artists. I think that's really important and I commend you and thank you for what you're doing, and I'm just so excited to continue to follow your work, because obviously this is a awesome partnership that's just going to continue to produce wonderful things. So thank you for bringing art to the world. I appreciate it. [00:36:08] Anthony Saldana: Thank you for having us. We will definitely send you that movie. [00:36:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Well, and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and I highly encourage you to check out their work, and we will catch you next time. [00:36:33] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I welcome Sabrina Osso! Sabrina is the founder of Osso Safe and she offers educational workshops about home violence and how to see the warning signs. She is also a dancer, dance teacher, choreographer, and a TEDx speaker. In this episode, she shares about learning to dance as an adult in NYC, the hundreds of auditions she attended, and her own healing journey. (Fun fact: the cover image is of a photo of Sabrina in her own-woman show, "Home Sweet Home?")   Get in touch with Sabrina Osso: https://www.ossosafe.com Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 57 - Sabrina Osso Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sabrina Osso, who is the founder of Osso Safe, which I absolutely love the name of her company. And I can't wait to dive in and explore more about how all that came to be. She is also a professional dancer and has had lots of experience in the professional dance world. And so it's just my absolute delight to have you here today, Sabrina. So thanks for joining us. [00:01:05] Sabrina Osso: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm so excited to be on your show, on this podcast, and I'm looking forward to our interview. [00:01:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. Well, I would love if you would start by maybe sharing a little bit more about yourself, how you got started, maybe a little bit about your background and what you're up to these days. [00:01:25] Sabrina Osso: Sure, sure. I've had years of on and off therapy to just open the conversation and it's just healing, especially when it comes to what I do  and relating it to dance. But I am a survivor of violence. My father beat my mother on a regular basis and I could not even think about dance growing up.  I had no one to take me and I loved it. I, I had it in my heart and my soul, but I had to put it on the back burner the way, way back burner. So, but I always had it in me and it wasn't until I moved out, actually that I kind of caught up on my life, if you will. And I, I moved out, I, I graduated from college. I did what I was supposed to do, quote unquote.  But I found it very unsatisfactory. I have a computer science degree. And I, I did the corporate thing and, and then my therapist said, "You need to read a book." And that book is called, "Do What You Love, the Money Will Follow." And I, when I read that book, I said, "I love to dance. I'm a dancer. I have to get myself into class." [00:02:37]So that's what I did. I totally immersed and submerged myself in the dance world in New York City. I was shuffling between Alvin Ailey, Steps, and Broadway Dance Center taking 12 classes a week, auditioning heavily. And then the gigs started happening. I was starting to get gigs and it was very exciting, a lot of rejection, a lot of rejection. And, but I was in the city and it was so exciting and I met so many people along the way. And the teachers that I was taking were very well-established, to say the least. So, and then I began writing my one-woman show called "Home Sweet Home, Question Mark" and I, and basically I play different women being abused. She goes to her good place. That's where the dancing comes in, but then she's pulled back into the terror of violence, but the show ends very strong, very empowering. And I did a lot of research for that show because I wanted it to be entertaining as well as educational. And I could not believe the statistics that I was finding about violence abuse. And I said to myself, "I have to make this into a business. I have to make this into a bonafide business with paid services and products that will really help people, whether you're going through violence or not." So Osso Safe was born from really my one-woman show. [00:04:10] And I did my one woman show. I was dance. I was teaching dance, actually also I taught dance for 10 years from Pre-K all the way up to high school through adult level ballet, jazz, tap, theater, Latin, lyrical, hip hop. And I, I performed the show with my dance students. I had one or two dance studio owners that allowed me to do that, which I'm very grateful for. The synopsis of the birth of Osso Safe and my dance background, how I started, and I bring dance into schools whenever I do my workshops at university, schools, I find that this taboo subject-- make it un-taboo by introducing the performance element to it because students will digest it better and it's more palatable if you will. [00:05:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That makes complete sense to me. I, I think that one of the things that I value the most about arts is the fact that it opens conversations that might otherwise either not take place or be extremely uncomfortable to bring up. But when you introduce it through the arts, it has a much more natural conversation that can follow after that. I really like that. I think that's, that's great, what you're doing is so fantastic and it's so needed. And I really appreciate the fact that you're, you're using something that obviously was extraordinarily difficult-- I mean, to put it mildly in your own life-- and then taking that and transforming it into something, just so needed and helpful. So thank you for, for doing that. That's, that's huge. And I I'm, I'm very grateful that you do that. [00:05:56] Sabrina Osso: Thank you, Lindsey. Thank you. I appreciate that. [00:06:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, well, you've obviously had, there are so many parts of your story I'm so excited to dig into, but you know, you were talking about the dance aspect and so it's, it sounds like-- and please correct me if I'm wrong-- that really the majority of your training came as an adult rather than as a child growing up. Is that correct? [00:06:22] Sabrina Osso: Correct, correct. Yes. I, I wish I was one of those people that started at five years old, three years old, even, or 10 years old. And I just was not one of those people. Like I said, I, I had to put it on the back burner and really-- oh, it was very painful. I just, I couldn't even think about it. It wasn't allowed in my household. And, and then when I, I started training, I started taking classes. I was so free, you know, and I was also heavily clubbing in the city, to say the least. So because my, my favorite, favorite music to dance to was techno, techno, house, tribal, and in the city at the time all the clubs were, they were huge, huge. They were a big, big following. I mean, thousands of people would go to these clubs from Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and the biggest night, Saturday, and even the raves. [00:07:23] And so I was dancing after class and I was dancing in class. I was catching up on my life, like I said, and I was so free, and dancing is just such a beautiful, expressive form of movement. And it's so freeing and, and I would see the students that I would teach, you know, we would do the recitals and order the costumes and, and do the rehearsals. And I'm like, "Wow, I'm their teacher and I'm doing for them what I wish I had for myself," you know?  And then the different styles and being on a stage and teaching them backstage and, you know, calming them if they were nervous. And so even though I didn't have it when I was young, I kind of caught up with it later on. [00:08:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it sounds like you really just dove in headfirst, totally immersed yourself and did a, basically a deep dive, intense study into all things dance. So kudos to you for that. That's, that takes some guts. I mean, I think any new endeavor takes guts, but you know, especially in a very competitive city, like New York City, yeah, I just, I commend your, your bravery for just diving in and going for it and seeing what happens. That's great. And then I'm curious, you know, you said that you started auditioning and started getting some, you know, really cool opportunities. What is your most memorable gig that you did? [00:09:00]Sabrina Osso: I mean, I would have to say I did matinee theater. I did a small tour with a Latin pop artist, similar to, not nearly as big as Ricky Martin, but he kind of really emulated him. And so he did same style, you know, Latin mixing Latin with English and his songs, and the Latin choreography I performed in Lamb's Theater in New York City. And I was told-- or we were told, I should say-- Mark Twain performed there. He did readings there as well as a few other famous people perform there. And, and so that was very memorable. It was a Greek play called "Epimenides.". And I did, I think I did-- if not all of the choreography-- most of the choreography for the show. [00:09:49] And you know, when you know that famous people have been at that theater, it, it kind of just is-- it's extra inspiration, you know, like you were on stage with these people that had a lot of influence, you know, in the world, performing, acting, singing, dancing. So, so that, that's one of my memorable performances. And I performed the most with my show, "Home Sweet Home," because when I performed it, I was asked, "Oh, wow, that was so great." And I've had to do that like around different venues where I would pull different styles depending upon what the person wanted. I would say, "Sure, I have that. I have a musical theater piece or I have a flamenco piece." Oh. And I did a Latin piece as well, partnering with my, my partner and that, that was the music that I chose and very salsa, very Mambo music as far as the theme. [00:10:51] And just all the auditioning that I did, Lindsey, I mean-- holy cow, no exaggeration-- I think I went on at least 750 auditions. I'm not even exaggerating. It was between 750 and a thousand auditions. And that includes sending out the headshots, sometimes having to do just appearing and being cut, like, just because you're not the right type, quote unquote. And, and that just really thickens your skin, like nothing else, especially in New York City, you know? I mean, I was everywhere. I was everywhere-- the five boroughs, I think I went as far as Connecticut-- definitely Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, Manhattan, certainly and being on all those stages just to audition. I mean, holy cow. It was grueling. I mean, all sorts of weather, waiting outside, to just have a chance to be seen, to be heard to, to perform improv. I think I even tried out for SNL at the time, hundreds and hundreds of people lined up outside. And, and you had to do skits on the, on the spot or some kind of monologue, according to the theme that it was and, or the theme that they asked for. And so like I said, I totally submerged and immerse myself in, in that world. And, but yeah, I hope I answered your question. [00:12:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, no, for sure. Lots of memorable things, of course, as, as I'm sure any artist would agree with. And so, I'm curious, so to write your one-woman show, of course, I would imagine that that was kind of a, probably a really difficult challenge in some ways, because not only are you writing something that's really meaningful to you and important to you, but it's something that happened to you. So how was that writing process? Was it difficult? Was it liberating? Was it, what was it like? [00:12:59]Sabrina Osso: Yes. A good word. Liberating and healing, I would say. And, and, hmm. Yeah, liberating and healing. It, it was automatic, really. It was automatic. I, I mean, after auditioning and getting gigs and, and I have to say, I found the choreography that I was doing-- not that it wasn't satisfying me-- but I said to myself, I want to do my own choreography. I want to do what feels good to me, you know, because when you're doing choreography, other people's choreography, it's other people's choreography. So, I just said to myself, "I just want to write, I just want to see what happens." So I kind of just, I didn't have any expectations, really. [00:13:44] I just said, "Let me just write my one woman show." And I knew quite a few people that did that also, you know, auditioning and performing in gigs. And I would meet this one and that one saying, "Oh yeah, I'm working on my one man show or my one woman show," when it's mainly singing and acting, some dancing or, or mainly acting, or, and I said, "You know what? Let me, let me try that. Let me just try that." So I just started writing, I just started writing and I knew it had to be very personal and, and something different, you know? I didn't want it to be what typically was done out there as far as you know like "Brigadoon" or "Carousel" or "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers," or I wanted it to be more raw and, and very personal. [00:14:39] So I just started writing and it came naturally actually once I started writing one scene and, and, and doing the choreography, which I enjoyed a lot and acting comes naturally to me when it's my own stuff, if you will. Like I said, I played different women being abused, so that came, I scripted it all.  I knew what I wanted to, that what I wanted the ending to be. I wanted it to be strong and empowering and to actually say that we have to do things differently. And, and to show that this steals your life, you know, that the abuse and violence steals your life. And I think I was effective in doing that in the show. And, and I love doing the choreography but I knew I had to catch up. You know, I wasn't one of those people that started dancing, like I said, at four or five years old, 10 years old, even. So I had to take teachers that I-- I needed for them to pay attention to me. And that would catapult me to kind of save on the years that I lost not dancing. [00:15:56] So there was two particular teachers: Phil Black and Kat Wildish. Phil Black was a master dancer, master dance teacher at the time he passed away in 2015, but he, he could take anyone off the street and make them into a dancer in a year. And, but he expected not a hundred percent. He expected a thousand percent in class, and he was great. He taught you-- you really got your money's worth in class with him-- because he taught lyrical jazz, theater jazz, Latin jazz, swing jazz. He saw it as all jazz. So he put all the different styles and made it into one class and every day was a different theme. So you learned all of these styles in his class and so I took him religiously. I mean, I was in his class all the time and, and then Kat Wildish. She was one of my main ballet teachers and, and she's amazing. She paid a lot of, a lot of attention to me. And so with the show, I was able to do the choreography cause I knew all the styles.  I learned them and I put them in my show and it just kind of flowed and I, at the end of it, I felt, as you said, liberated, healed. The healing is always a process. You're not a hundred percent healed, but you are continuously healing if you allow it, if you do your homework. So, and, and like I said, dancing is just-- it's my essence. It's my essence, truly. And I'm grateful for that. Yeah. So, so thank you for asking that too. I appreciate that question. [00:17:52] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Well, and so now you have this one woman show and also now you have your business. And so that includes you actually speaking, right? You're going to different locations and speaking with people or groups. Are you still actively doing that now? Has it had to pivot a little bit with the times and more virtual or how is that all going for you? [00:18:16] Sabrina Osso: Yes. Ever since COVID hit, things are really-- and still--actually kind of like at a standstill right now. So I've had to just readjust and see. I know it'll be picking up soon because as I understand it in September, I think the schools are going to be fully reopened, especially with more and more vaccinations being done. People are feeling safer. And so we are working on that to, to get things rescheduled. I have proposals out there and, and the feedback that I've been getting is that we should be up and running again towards the end of the summer into September, October, and yes, I've done some virtual performances, if you will, or virtual workshops. But like I said, it's been, it's been sporadic due to COVID. And with COVID, in a way-- and I'm, and I'm not trying to be offensive by, by any means-- it has kind of opened the eyes. [00:19:23] I'm kind of grateful for COVID to a certain degree because homes must be safe. Your place of residence must be safe and COVID has highlighted that in a very big way. Home violence-- I, I prefer to say home violence versus domestic violence-- home violence has spiked across the globe ever since COVID hit on an enormous levels and your home should be your sanctuary.  It shouldn't be a war zone. It shouldn't be hell. It should be your, your comfort, your, your most safe place. And unfortunately for so many of us, it isn't, and COVID has definitely highlighted that. And I, I just want to reiterate that violence steals your life. Like I said, violence, any abuse, chaos, disfunction. And, and what a misfortune, what a misfortune I have to say. Like for myself with dance. I should have been dancing at three, four years old, you know, and and I'm not blaming my parents.  I had to let go of that because I made the best of it. [00:20:40] You know, I, I didn't start dancing till much later in my early, early twenties and I had to catch up and I, I actually have had people say, "Holy cow, Sabrina,  I did start dancing at five years old and I haven't auditioned as much as you have." And I say to them, "Really? You, you started dancing at five years old?" And they were afraid to audition. I found that surprising from some people that stay in that cocoon of being in your dance school when, you know, cause it's kind of like a second home, right, being in that dance studio and you grow up there. Cause I taught in a good seven of them and, and it's true. That's like your second home. You go home, but your dance studio-- if you start from three, four years old and you're there through high school-- it's literally a second home and your second family. And, and I guess for, for some, it's your true family because of home is not a good place. It's your getaway. [00:21:47]We try to, as far as the education and what we teach in our workshops, is to be preventative. And whatever we teach on to a high school student, obviously we're not going to teach the same things or the same way to someone, a student in the sixth grade or fifth grade. It's modified, but the message is there. We teach on warning signs, what constitutes abuse, to give students tools to practice safety, that when they are of dating age, you do not do what mom and dad are doing. You do different if you are in a abusive environment.  We're very positive though. And that's where dance, we bring dance and acting and encouraging the performance aspect of it. So. Yeah, so with, well, so all of these components come into play. It's kind of like what I did with my show. I do in my workshops to make it entertaining and empowering and educational at schools and universities. [00:22:55]Lindsey Dinneen:  Perfect. And for any of our listeners who might want to connect with you and even book a workshop or something like that, is there a way for them to do that? [00:23:06] Sabrina Osso: Yes, absolutely. My website is ossosafe.com. That's OSSO, and then the word safe, S A F E.com. My direct email is sabrina@ossosafe.com. I am on all the major social media platforms of Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Alignable, Instagram. I did do a TEDx Talk and that is broadcast on the internet. It's under Sabrina Osso. So that's also on the website. But yeah, those are the major components of, of how to contact us. [00:23:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Well, first of all, thank you for sharing your stories and all of the ways that you've taken difficult things and, and transform them, and the liberation that can come from that. Thank you so much for doing that. I so appreciate what you do and the way that you bring hope to other people. And I always ask my guests the same three questions, if you're okay with that. [00:24:05] Sabrina Osso: Sure. Sure. Absolutely. [00:24:07] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:24:14]Sabrina Osso: Freedom. Freedom, and freedom is a two way street.  I'm free and you're free. So that should be without harm, without anything negative. It is, it is freedom of expression. Just freedom. [00:24:31]Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. I love it. Okay. And what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:24:37]Sabrina Osso: It goes back to freedom to liberate. I like that word that you used during our interview: to, to liberate, liberate all emotions, whether it be happiness, sadness, anger. It could be, yeah, sadness, happiness, joy, liberation of all emotions, because once you release it, then you can get to the next level. So, yeah, liberation, I would say. [00:25:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Perfect. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by that, I mean, inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there, but doesn't provide context behind it, so it's left entirely up to the viewer to determine what they will. [00:25:42]Sabrina Osso: Hmm. Huh. Good question, Lindsey! I've never been asked that and in that way, I would say, well, maybe both. I would say, can I answer both are fine. I'm a proponent of both, really inclusive and exclusive because like even with my own show, I titled it, there was a description. And, and if I didn't do that, then yes, I guess the audience would have a different experience, which is correct also. So  I would say I would be for both. If I could say that. [00:26:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. Perfect. Well, thank you again so much for joining me this morning, Sabrina. I really appreciate it. And I just commend you for the work you're doing. I think it's incredibly important and inspiring, and I would highly encourage our listeners to check out her website and social media and follow what she's doing and yeah, watch that TEDx Talk, which is super cool as well, and definitely support what she's doing because it's, it's important and valuable. And I appreciate it. So thanks again, Sabrina. [00:27:00] Sabrina Osso: Oh, Lindsey, thank you so much for this opportunity. I really enjoyed talking dance and performing in the arts with you. It's not very often that I'm on a podcast where I'm speaking about that. So I appreciate our time together and to talk art and dance and performing. And this was truly wonderful. [00:27:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, good. Yeah. Well, I, yes, thank you again so much. And thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two ,and we will catch you next time. [00:27:38] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I welcome Sandy Rodriguez! Sandy's day job is as a court interpreter, but her artistic experience goes way beyond one job title. She is also a painter, author, amatuer winemaker, and more, and she shares about the power of the arts in her own life and in the lives of those she's witnessed experience art. (Fun fact: the cover image is of Sandy's award-winning acrylic pour painting, "Lavender Fields.")   Get in touch with Sandy Rodriguez: https://www.instagram.com/choosetoprevail/ Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview     Episode 56 - Sandy Rodriguez Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so excited to have as my guest today, Sandy Rodriguez. She is a communications expert and an artist, and has a really cool story to share with us today-- probably many stories to share with us today. So thank you so very much for being here, Sandy. I really appreciate it. [00:00:54] Sandy Rodriguez: Thank you so much, Lindsey. I'm a big fan of your show and it's such an honor to be here. [00:01:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, thank you. Well, I would just love if you would share just maybe a little bit about your background and how you got involved with art and also, just a little bit more about you and what you're up to. [00:01:14] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. Well, I think that I have always, always been very much drawn to arts. But I got into it a little bit more seriously in very recent years that was a function, I think, of having made a big career because for many years, I used to work as an editorial coordinator for one of the formal newspapers in Latin America. I was living in Mexico City at the time. And while that career is very fascinating and I was very passionate about that, it's also all consuming. You're really never off the clock. So at a certain point in time, I decided to make a shift, and I moved to Los Angeles where I currently live. And here I began working in a totally different field, which is court interpreting. [00:02:04] And although there's, you know, a very high barrier to entry and it's, it's, to be honest, a very grueling job. It is a situation where you're home by six, it's a normal eight to five job. So that gives me time to engage in other activities. So I was able to become an amateur winemaker, I would say. Well, to do a little bit more writing, I wrote a book of my own, recently published, and I got into art a little bit more seriously, and that was fabulous. It's been a very life-changing. So something that used to be a hobby somehow has become more of a-- well, without saying that I'm fully professional, that's not necessarily the case because I'm not necessarily, you know, marketing my, my paintings and such, but I'm doing it in a, in a much more-- let's say structured --way. And I'm very happy about that, Lindsey. [00:02:58] Lindsey Dinneen: That's fantastic. Yeah. And, oh my goodness, what an interesting career you've had. I mean, just both, you know, positions are so interesting and yeah, it does sound like, like you mentioned, it might be grueling at times, but again, at least it allows you to do other things on the side. And I, I love your realness with that because I think there are a lot of artists who might feel like, "Oh, I'm not legitimate or something if it's not my full-time gig." And I think, I don't think there's any truth behind that. And so I really like that you've done both! [00:03:33] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. And I think there's something interesting. I do agree with what you're saying that some people feel that unless it is your, your absolute only activity, you might not be like you say "legit" in, in some way. But on the other hand, I do find that many creative people in many creative fields-- and by that, I mean, acting, music, art, all kinds of things, filmmaking-- normally they have these titles that include a lot of hyphens or slashes because people actually do... Creative people sometimes do a lot of things. For instance, I remember one of your recent guests that was a writer and a Broadway actress, and she was also a tour guide. I also remember another person you had on the show that did podcasts and they were also into acting and writing. So a lot of people do a lot of things, and I think that that is also something that, that can happen. It's not only the person that says "I only am in school, so we need to devote myself to this." There's this other style of person that is interested in a lot of things. And they have, we have, our hands up in a lot of different projects and fields. [00:04:44] And I think that is on the one hand-- it's, it's very interesting people that are into many fields. Some that do many things. Firstly, they have more places or sources to draw from when they actually do engage in a creative process, by which I mean maybe if you're a painter, but you're also a doctor and you're also a dancer, you might have more sources of inspiration than if you're not. So that's, it's interesting like that. And also the thing is that creative people bring their creativity into whatever line of work they're in, no matter what it is, even if you think well, "That doesn't really make sense. It doesn't sound, you know, within the realm of art or creativity to me." Maybe the person is, I don't know-- well, for instance, a tour guide-- maybe you might say, "Well, that's something that you need to, you know, base yourself on, on history. And there's not much margin for creativity." But you know, they're kind of fazed because a person might have a, a gift for storytelling or it's interesting, I think that, that you have both types of personality in the art community: the one, the person that wants to be  only focused on art, and the person that is, that spreads their creativity across a number of different fields. So there's a little bit of both, I think. [00:06:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think you're absolutely right. Sort of I've noticed that creativity seems to beget creativity, in a way. So when you are exercising that muscle, then it, it becomes stronger and might go into many different avenues, like you were saying, instead of necessarily --you know, I think there are times when it's important to focus on one path, you know, and really go after that one thing, hone those skills-- but like you said, it's so much fun because you can dabble in all sorts of things and learn the joy from each one, you know? So I love that. Yeah. Well, okay. Something you said earlier totally caught my attention and I was like, "Wait a second. We can't just skim over that." Okay. So you make wine? [00:06:48] Sandy Rodriguez: Yeah. Well, I think that's also a creative thing. Yes. So a couple of years ago, I started making wine and let's say in a serious matter, although it's an amateur only, I made a good Merlot, and then I made an excellent Zinfandel deal the following year. And when I say excellent, I'm not even making it up. I actually won a bronze medal for, for the Zinfandel, which I made alongside of a former boyfriend. We got into that and it was fantastic. I bought grapes from vineyard in the Paso Robles region. And we just went for it and we, we made a very, very good wine. It's also a very interesting field for, for creative people and just in general. So it's a hobby that very few people might engage in because you might think, "Oh, you need to own your own vineyard. Or it might be extremely expensive or very difficult." And, well, that's not really the case. I mean, you can actually source the grapes from existing vineyards. You don't really need to own one. [00:07:49]And as for the process, interestingly enough, the winemaking community is very welcoming, even to newcomers or people that are just hobbyists, they're, they're very nice people overall, and they're very open to giving you tips and, and their secret techniques. So it's a lot of fun. And in more recent months, I've been trying to do something that I don't know if you could even call it wine. But I've been using wine-making techniques, not with grapes, but with just random fruit juices. I've tried it with a cherry juice, cranberry, apple. And the result is, well, I don't know if you could call it wine per se, but it's, it's just a very fun activity. And once you're, you're done, I don't have a commercial permit, but I can give samples out to friends or I can drink it myself. So it's, it's just very fun. Very, very fun. [00:08:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that is so cool. Well, and I love the fact that you were talking about how sometimes it might seem like something, an activity, that has some barriers to it, but-- and I would have thought the same thing honestly, it would never have crossed my mind to, to try it-- but now I'm kinda like, "Ooh, maybe I will." [00:08:59] Sandy Rodriguez: I think you should! And well, let me tell you, here's the thing-- it's very hard to scale up, but it's very easy to just start small. For example, the smallest you can go is making wine from a kit, which is still wine. I mean, it's not really like making brownies from a brownie mix. It's more like, like making a meal from a meal kit. You really do have to put in some labor and it's, it's interesting. And you can buy a kit from many wine-making sources online or in person, and you can make maybe like, five bottles of wine. I think that's the smallest amount that you can make. Now, if you want to scale up a little, the next possible step is what I did with the Zinfandel. You can purchase at least a hundred pounds of grapes from existing vineyards and that will yield about 30 bottles of wine. So it's a big leap and I wouldn't necessarily recommend scaling up once you've done that, because then you would probably need to go commercial and invest way more time and money into, you know, getting a license and such. But I think the 100 pound amount is, is great. I mean, that's, that's impressive enough to dazzle your friends.  It's just very fun. I would recommend that to anybody that's interested in, in an unusual hobby. [00:10:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, how fun and also, oh my goodness, congratulations on the bronze metal or a bronze award. How cool is that? Did you submit it to like a... I don't even know how that process works. That's so cool. [00:10:36]Sandy Rodriguez:  It was actually a little surprise for me. I was-- so most of the bottles from that particular batch, my ex-boyfriend kept them and he kindly entered the, the wine into this contest, but I wasn't even aware until we won. So that was a very pleasant surprise. Yeah. But I wasn't really all that surprised because I mean, modesty aside, it was really great quality and that's not only because-- I mean, the technique we followed was, was fantastic-- but because the grapes themselves lend themselves to making a wonderful wine. Wine, for the most part, is dependent on, on the grapes you select initially. And these were great. So, I mean, it was, it was surely going to come out very well in the end. [00:11:21]Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's so cool. Okay. Well, I know you've recently written a book, and I would love to hear more about the process of that, because I know that's an undertaking, but also just maybe more about what it's about and, and that's a whole art form in itself. [00:11:37] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. Well, this is a book that is described by many as a conversation between the reader and the very supportive friend, and the conversation leads to the reader feeling more at peace and more confident. So it's a book that really has those two goals in mind. It's a book that is meant to leave the reader feeling more at peace and more confident in many ways, self confident and confident in the fact that things will always turn out alright. And this is a book that I wrote, it's called "Choose to Prevail," subtitle is "Unexpected Insights to Help You Overcome Challenges," and it's meant to help the reader overcome challenges big and small. When I say big, I mean, things such as, for instance, the death of a loved one, for example, or smaller things, which could be a difficulty when expressing oneself in public or maybe physical insecurities, that kind of thing. [00:12:35] And in fact, it's a book that has been it's being gifted to people that join this company called Heart of Hollywood as members. This is a company that encompasses actors, dancers, models, et cetera. And the CEO and owner felt that the book offered value to people in the creative fields, in an entertainment, because I mean, this is a field where rejection is, you know, it's part of the very nature. So people do need to develop more confidence, rock-solid confidence, more faith in the fact that things can and will turn out fine. So it was very flattering for me to see that this company that deals with people in entertainment and the arts is now kindly giving its, its members this school. So that was, that was something that was very, very nice for me. And also I think that the  book allowed me to express myself in, in ways that go beyond writing. [00:13:39]I was mentioning to you that recently I got a little bit more serious into, into arts. Let me backtrack a little. When I was a little girl, I had a tremendous passion for drawing, sketching. I would always have scrap paper at the ready and the pen or pencils or colored pencils or anything, markers, anything, because it was a tremendous compulsion that I had. So much so, Lindsey, that there was a time that I broke my right arm-- and I'm right-handed-- and instead of saying, "Okay, I'll just wait until I heal so that I can continue." No, I trained myself to draw with my left hand because I simply could not go a day without drawing or sketching. It was just a passion for me. I simply could not stop. So strangely, even though I was so, so passionate about this, I think when I became like maybe a, an older teenager and then a young adult, that kind of stopped being as interesting or important to me. I don't know why. [00:14:41] I don't think that there was a specific incident. Maybe I just got too busy with life. I don't know, but it was something that I kind of stopped doing. And then in recent years, I would say maybe three years ago, I kind of got back into it, but this time around, it was not only drawing that I was interested in, but I wanted to explore painting. My mom is an architect and also an artist, much more serious and rigorous than me. And I think seeing her recent paintings was really something that inspired me. So I started experimenting with acrylics and I started painting, and the same compulsion that, that I had felt-- this little girl-- when it came to drawing, I felt the same thing. I had to go out and buy just a bunch of canvases and paintbrushes and paint and everything had to be ready because maybe I was in bed, and I was like, "Nope, I need to get up. I need to paint this thing that I'm thinking of." And that's, that's something that happened to me recently. [00:15:41] And because it was kind of new to me, I was not used to acrylics or painting per se, drawing and painting are not-- not at least in my mind-- not quite the same thing. They don't even use the same part of the brain, is what I feel. But the compulsion was very similar and I did want to experiment as much as I could. And I also discovered this technique or style called acrylic pouring, which is a fluid, fluid style of painting that has its roots in something called "accidental painting" or "fluid arch" that was developed by a Mexican muralist by the name of David Alfaro Siqueiros who actually taught and also influenced Jackson Pollock at some point. Now modern day, acrylic  pouring is mostly considered a craft rather than art, because there are very specific techniques that people can pick up on, on YouTube and whatnot. Not to say that that doesn't have value because it does. I mean, of course, it's interesting that people can, can just start off their journey through tutorials, of course. But I wanted to, to explore that technique in ways that were not like accidental but rather more planned, and I also wanted to do it in ways that were not in line with existing techniques, but rather just experiment. And I did, and one of my acrylic pours actually ended up being the cover for the book, so that it was very cool. [00:17:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. Yeah. Well, and I love the fact that this was such a passion for you that-- oh, well, first of all, that you taught yourself to do that with your left hand, I mean, that is so impressive, I can't even draw with my right hand.  I mean, I can, but I can't do what you do. It's not like a fine art thing. I can, you know, play around. But anyway, so that is super impressive. But also I just love that you've picked it back up, and it was fun to hear you talk about how you just want to be at the ready so that, you know, when inspiration strikes per se, you can respond. And that's so cool. Well, I, you know, I have a little bit of an advantage here at knowing you had mentioned before, about a specific thing that happened where you entered a contest as a kid. Do you want to tell that story? [00:18:06] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. Yes. So when I was little, I mean, it was an obsession. I would say that maybe it was a little bit crazy, but I also like to, to draw not only things that came from my imagination or for watching the world around me. But I also like to draw or try to replicate characters. Like for instance, I would like to read, say Archie comics and I would draw the Archie characters or people that looked vaguely like the Archie characters, but in different situations with different clothing, different storylines. I made my own comments. And I think that that's also something that maybe some parents will say, "No, I don't want my kids to, to be reading comic books and let alone, you know, copying things that they might see elsewhere," because that doesn't sound glamorous or, or, you know. But in reality, it's a, it's a good segue. I think it doesn't matter what the entry way into art or reading is, I mean, I think that's, it also has value. [00:19:06] In any case, I was very used to doing that and I heard about this contest that was going to be sponsored by Kellogg's where you had to draw you know, the Kellogg's characters doing different things for different situations. And I submitted a couple of, of drawings of Tony the Tiger and Snap, Crackle, and Pop making cereal or, you know, just doing the things of that, of that sort. And I actually won this gigantic adult sized 10 speed bicycle. So that was fantastic. That was so, so cool. And I do love entering contests. In fact, last year I also entered an acrylic paint pouring contest. This was online. And I also won a first place. This was not something that was selected by judges, but rather through votes. And a lot of people voted for it, for my painting. It was something called "Lavender Fields" where I tried to use a cooling techniques to replicate a lavender field in France that I had once visited. So it's, it's really very interesting. I would encourage people of all ages to enter contests because it's just very motivating. It's fun. It's a fun activity. I think it's, it's, it's something that-- I mean, if you don't win, that's fine-- but if you do win, it's just like a fun story. [00:20:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, it is. Well, congratulations for both of those things, because that's so fun. [00:20:30] Sandy Rodriguez: Thank you. [00:20:30] Lindsey Dinneen: And I'll definitely have to see a picture of that painting as it sounds gorgeous. [00:20:36] Sandy Rodriguez: Well, thank you so much. Well, it's actually interesting because again, as I was telling you, acrylic pouring normally as taught in tutorials or in classes is really very techniquey, but I didn't want to go with things that everybody does, and everybody knows how to do, when everybody knows how, how to replicate. I wanted to do something that was more-- not, not a hundred percent accidental, but rather with a certain degree of planning. So I thought, "Okay, what do I need to do? How do I need to tilt the canvas?" The way this is done is pretty interesting. You use acrylic paints that are either pre-liquified or that you yourself make more liquid by the use of something called the pouring medium. So you have these-- let's say sort of liquid acrylic paints that you place on a canvas, and you tilt the canvas to and fro to the sides, et cetera, in order to make the paint move, and you can achieve very specific effects. It can look like marble. It can look abstract. You can look like a seascape depending on the color zone and the way you're moving the canvas or how you're tilting it, or certain other factors you might add to the paint. [00:21:48] But I wanted to do something a little bit different. So I really gave it a lot of thought, like, "What would happen if I do this? If I do that?" And I ended up using a liquid acrylic paint. And even though the technique I used was that tilting the canvas, moving the canvas, I was able to guide the painting into looking the way that I had previously planned it to go. So it was, it was pretty fun. It was, it was an interesting experiment and I'm really glad that people liked it. I also think that this pouring technique is very satisfying. I mean, it feels so relaxing when you're doing that. And that's also something that I mentioned in the book. I mentioned how art can truly modify your moods in, in very dramatic ways. [00:22:36] For example, if you're feeling a dip in your self-confidence or you're feeling a lack of energy, I can certainly say, and I've proven it myself, bring out your canvas and you provide yourself with paints in reds and burgundies and all of these exciting colors. And you turn up, you know, very intense music and you start painting. I mean, you feel very replenished and very confident by the time you're done. And by the same token, if you're feeling a little bit stressed or frazzled, and that happened to many people during the beginnings of COVID, and actually when COVID started, I went out and I got myself all the supplies that I needed. I started painting seascapes, another very tranquility- inducing landscapes, and blues and teals and grays. And, and it really is very soothing. I mean, just the type of brushstroke soft and it's, it's very therapeutic, I think. [00:23:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, that is really inspiring. And I, I love the fact that you have taken this opportunity, you know, taking something that is a challenging time, but used it for creativity and as an outlet. And I couldn't agree with you more about how art has the power to really impact your mood in a great way, and your outlook on life, and like you said, even self-confidence through it. So it's a powerful thing. And yeah, I, yes. I always encourage everyone, I know everyone has creativity in them and it's just a matter of finding the type of art that speaks to you, you know? Well, I would love, I'm sure you have probably many of these thoughts, but is there any particular memories that sort of stand out as moments that matter when either you watched somebody experience your art, or you experienced somebody else's art, and you just thought, "I've got to remember this moment." [00:24:36] Sandy Rodriguez: I think there are several. I mean, as I was telling you, my mom is, is an artist, far more accomplished than, than myself. And sometimes I see things that she has made, or I see things during the process of them being completed. And it's just very exciting. I mean, it's, you know how  Tom Sawyer, when he's white washing a fence and all of his friends think, "Oh, that looks super fun!" And it's really not. But the friends think that, well, in this case, I feel it's the same compulsion. You see somebody wielding a paintbrush and you say, "Oh, I want to do that." Luckily, unlike in the Tom Sawyer story, it really is fun. It's not unpleasant. It's really fascinating. But that's the thing. Just seeing somebody as they're painting, at least to me, it feels like I want to do that myself. It's just very tempting. It's one of those things that, that really speak to me. So I think whenever I see her or other artists in front of their easel or doing the things that they're doing when they're in the middle of adding a little tree or painting a, an eye or adding something to the sky, you know, I really want to do it myself. [00:25:45] It's just something that's, that's very tempting to me. And also, as to the other situation, moments that I feel that I've remembered very clearly where people have liked what I've done. Yeah. Like for instance, I started painting this series of wine bottles recently, I guess also inspired by my wine taking things. But I, I think that wine bottles are very fun to paint because firstly, depending on the colors you choose on the placement, they can look very festive or very depressing, and both are interesting things to express. You can, you can express despair and anguish through a wine bottle, an empty wine bottle or half full one. And likewise, you can express a feeling of celebration. So they're, they're interesting. It's the same object, but it can give off two very different vibes depending on how you choose to paint them. And I made that series. And surprisingly, I think it's one, one of the series that I've made that people respond to the most. [00:26:47]I've sold a few, and a lot of people have reached out in regards to those. I think that's interesting. I think that's something that, for whatever reason, spoke to people, so that was nice. And also there was another thing that, that happened.  So during COVID, the very first day that I heard the expression, "social distancing," I thought, "That is so interesting." And that very day, I came home. Because of my type of work, I really didn't have, you know, much time to, to spend at home. I was not in lockdown myself for, I mean, maybe just a couple of months, but not, not throughout the year, like many other people. But those months, the very first day that I was, let's say "sent home" and that I also heard the expression, "social distancing," I thought that would make a fascinating painting or drawing. So what I did is I made a set. It was two separate small illustrations. One of them showed a woman seen from behind at home. She's reading. And she's just in her home. She has a little dog, and it's like a scene where she's home basically. [00:27:57] And then there's a separate illustration where there's a guy also seen from behind. And he's also you know, at home, also kind of doing his own thing, but he's thinking. There's a thought bubble where he's thinking about the woman, and what the thought bubble shows is the exact same image that you see in painting number one. So this set is called "Social Distancing" because I felt that that was a good reflection of what was going on, that people were going to have to be separate, each one in their own homes, but they might be missing or longing for being with somebody else, being with the other person that they were missing-- a partner or a girlfriend or a friend, maybe a sister. So I thought that that was an interesting thing. And what I found fantastic was that the Los Angeles Public Library agreed that it was interesting. And now those two paintings are part of its digital collection as part of the COVID archive. [00:28:54]Lindsey Dinneen: Sandy, you are so amazing. You've done so many cool things. I love that. Congratulations for that too. Oh, that's yeah, just, that is really cool. And I love the fact that you were able to express that so beautifully through art and, and capture a moment in time that does matter. That's really neat. So yeah. Kudos to you. Well, I'm sure that there are listeners who would love to connect with you, maybe see some of your artwork if it's available online, just maybe purchase your book, follow you in your future endeavors. Is there a way for them to? [00:29:33] Sandy Rodriguez: Yes, absolutely. I have an Instagram that is at @chooseprevail. That is an Instagram through which I share my, my journey as a writer. And occasionally I also share art, new things that I've been painting, new things that I'm doing. It's more focused on the book than on the art part, but you do find a little bit of both, and I think that's the easiest way to, to connect. If anybody cares to send me a direct message, that's also possible through Instagram, and as for the book, it's available pretty much everywhere. It's on Amazon. That might be the easiest venue, but it's also on personable.com, target.com, or Walmart e-books. I've even seen it on E-bay Australia. So I think that if somebody cares to get the book, they should be able to get the book. And I would be very happy if they did. [00:30:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. Perfect. Well, fantastic. I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests if you're okay with that. [00:30:35] Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. [00:30:37]Lindsey Dinneen:  Okay, good. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:30:43] Sandy Rodriguez: Well, I think that the dictionary definition would be simply something like, "the expression of human creativity and imagination to something such as a painting or a sculpture." Normally it's in visual form, but, personally, I think that it doesn't necessarily have to be in visual form. I think, for example, poetry can be a form of art. Certainly music can be a form of art as well. So I think it goes beyond, it goes beyond the visual. It's basically the application of creativity and imagination into something that speaks to others. I believe that would be the definition. [00:31:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:31:30] Sandy Rodriguez: I think that they're --okay-- it has two types of importance. One would be important for oneself. I think that as an artist, the importance of art to yourself would be allowing you to express feelings and modify them, so it's something that is both a source of expression and also a source of comfort to yourself as an artist, I think. But as to society or more as a whole, I think that, firstly, it can make society better by adding more beauty to everyday lives, but it can also shine a light on things that might be social ills or social problems. So it's simply another way of communicating. As a journalist, as a former newspaper editor, I would say that the role of art is not entirely different from the role of any other form of media. You can either shine a light on problems or spread the word on something that is beautiful, spread the word about something that is fascinating, bring more beauty to the world. [00:32:37] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. That's fantastic. Okay. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And inclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and include some context behind that, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out but doesn't include context behind it. So it's kind of left entirely up to the viewer to interpret it the way that they will? [00:33:12] Sandy Rodriguez: Ah, that's a very intriguing question. And I will always question that. Myself, for example, when going to museums that are not art museums, but rather museums of history. Sometimes you see artifacts from cultures that are long gone and you see the interpretation of modern day historians like saying, "Okay, this was a ceremonial goblet." How do we know it was a ceremonial goblet? Maybe it was somebody's everyday coffee mug. I mean, you don't know for sure. And it's kind of difficult also when it comes to, to arts, because I think for my fun and entertainment, I might choose not to give an explanation and just see how people respond to it, seeing what it triggers in other people, what a piece that I've made my may, you know, inspire or trigger within the viewer. [00:34:04] But in reality, I think I'm more of a person that doesn't like to give explanations. So normally when I, when I create something, I do normally either give it a title or give a little backstory. I like to do that. I personally, I see value in both. In the way I do it, obviously the value is that there's no misinterpreting first for sure. But I think that the other style would have a lot of value and I would be curious to try it someday, see what happens if I give no explanation and just wait and see what people might say. So that's a fascinating question. I hadn't thought about that, but yes, definitely. I do the explaining part, but I'm going to try not doing these explanations, and see what, what what happens. [00:34:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. "Do I like that?" It'll be an interesting social experiment. [00:34:57]Sandy Rodriguez: Absolutely. [00:34:57]Lindsey Dinneen: Well, that's fantastic. Well, Sandy, I have enjoyed our conversation so much. You are so multitalented and I love how much you like to dabble in all sorts of different things, and still enter contests, and are actively creating. Thank you for sharing your art with the world and with me this morning, I just really appreciate it. So, thank you. [00:35:21] Sandy Rodriguez: Thank you, Lindsey. I had so much fun. You're wonderful. [00:35:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, you're so sweet. Well, and thank you so much to everyone who has listened to this episode. I would highly encourage you to connect with Sandy on Instagram and follow her journey because obviously she is continuing to make incredible things, and that is her trajectory and it will just continue and it's going to be exciting. So go ahead and, and follow her. And we will catch you next time. [00:35:50] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

In today's episode, I welcome Corry MacDonald! Corry is a creative healer and first-time author, and she uses her love of the arts and her background in art therapy to help people overcome obstacles and move forward. She shares about her book-writing process and the stories of clients she's helped that have touched her heart as much as she touched theirs. (Fun fact: the cover image is a picture of Corry!)   Get in touch with Corry MacDonald: https://www.creatinghealingwithcorry.com/ | https://www.facebook.com/CorryMacDonaldPage/ | https://www.instagram.com/corrymacdonald/ Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 56 - Corry MacDonald Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am delighted to have as my guest today, Corry McDonald, she is a creative healer and first time author, which is so exciting. Can't wait to hear all about it. So, Corry, thank you so much for being here today. [00:00:51] Corry MacDonald: Oh, I'm so happy to be here, Lindsey. Thanks for having me. [00:00:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. I'd love to hear more about your background, sort of what got you into the work that you do now maybe, and just art and you and, and how all that intersect. So I'd love to hear all of that. [00:01:08] Corry MacDonald: Yeah.  It's why I'm so excited to be on your podcast because there are so many pieces to what I'm doing as a creative healer, but the thread that joins them all is creative power and creative intelligence and art. So in a nutshell, what drives me is I believe each one of us is meant to really just flow as the creative intelligence we are so that we can leverage life's challenges. Like whatever comes at us with stress, pain, triggers, heavy emotions, all whether body, mind, spirit, and we can learn to leverage them. And in real time, because underneath those things, there's wisdom and new potentials to access rather than just getting derailed by them. So think of it as artists who upcycled broken or discarded pieces to transform them into these masterpieces. You know, we also can learn to do this with our heaviest life pieces. [00:02:06] So how that all came about is a lot of broken pieces in my life early, in my earlier years, I'm coming into 50 now. And so I learned a lot of incredible, creative power tools that help take me from a downward spiral up into a much lighter way of being. So those kind of weave together now. So whether it's like transpersonal art therapy. I started in art and design and then I started to learn after the art therapist or to learn about energy healing, learning that we're all energy and how we can learn to move from less of our overactive beta thinking mind into our heart, feeling mind. So I became a heart speaker, advanced cognitive coach, all these things that I do to help me. I started to get trained in them and smash them all together to become a creative healer, which is what I do now. [00:03:04] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. And I love the idea that you were talking about of upcycling.  But I just love that. What a great illustration. And it's just a perfect way of thinking about how, you know, nothing that happens in our life needs to be wasted. It can all be replanted, you know? [00:03:24] Corry MacDonald: Oh my gosh, I just got complete goosebumps when you said that. Cause it's, that's it! Like nobody taught us this in school, right? Like we learned lots of great stuff in school. Don't get me wrong. But I, this is stuff that-- this is life. And there are things that come into our life and it's actually, I'm learning, I call it creative intelligence. Some people, whatever your higher power is, you know, a source, great spirit, Allah, God, you know, there is a big energy, a creative force that is on the macro in, in, you can see it. I mean, just look into the universe, look into the stars at night, but that universal intelligence, the creative intelligence, I call it, is running and humming through us too. So it is ready to transform whatever stuff is coming at us, but we, we need to learn how to do that. [00:04:18] Because most of the time we just react, which-- it's our wiring. We go into fight/flight/freeze, but we can override these systems and find new and better ways of being, and create different realities. And I I'm so grateful actually for all of the life that I've lived because I had to go through some --I call it off-roading, like four by four-- I had to go through some rough waters and rough roads to kind of have my self look deeper and go, "Wait a minute. I want to approach this different." And the minute we start looking for a higher or a, a better, vaster solution. Again, we're co-creating with the universe. So it dovetails and the helpers will come, like whether the right book or the right course or the right conversation with the person at the checkout. It doesn't matter. Something will help to upshift and upcycle, whatever you're wanting to. So it's a beautiful, natural process of life. We're meant to grow. [00:05:20] Lindsey Dinneen: I love that. Yeah. And that's so encouraging to realize exactly what you're saying, that there's so much more. And if you can help yourself and just be more aligned with truth, then that makes such a difference in your life, which is, you know, obviously transformative. Well, I would love to hear about how art specifically has kind of impacted and influenced your work, because I know that's a big component for you of what you do and sort of your own processing. [00:05:55]Corry MacDonald: Yeah. Fantastic. I mean, even-- I love that question because even when I went to art school, I just kind of did it, Lindsey, 'cause it was the only thing that kind of lit me up, not even I, I was in university and I was one of these people --I did kind of do everything pretty well and easily. I had a good memory. I could study stuff, but it didn't excite me. And I was thinking, I'm going to just fail, go travel. And I remember how it was. I grew up in Canada. So I remember at the university, I had to take an arts elective, you know, so I just thought, "Well, I love to paint. I'll just take the fine arts." And I, the prof was almost failing me. I thought, "I'm not even good. I'm not good at this. I'm not going to continue." Even though it was the one thing I really loved, I love to express more of myself. [00:06:46] And I remember him saying, "You know, Corry, I'm sad to hear, you're not going to try to get into art school." And I said, "Well, you're my lowest mark in my average," because I was all about the marks then, you know, and he said, "I'm doing that 'cause I'm pushing you. I think you should apply." So we ended up becoming partners. And he kind of helped me to create a portfolio and I got into art school. And when I got in there, I realized very quickly that I was wired-- I could do all this stuff that I was learning-- but I was wired for the emotive stuff. Like I could feel people's energy in their art and not in critiques. I was noticing that, and the profs were noticing I was much more interested to talk about what's going on internally with people, not about the arts, separate from the, the emotions and the feelings. [00:07:38] So a few of the profs pulled me aside and said, "You know, have you ever heard of art therapy? You might consider that, Corry, you're really leaning that way." And I had no idea that that existed. So then it just enfolded in life, you know, that I went that path, but that is so exciting to me because that tells me that this path was there before I even knew I was going to go. And for a while, I even resisted it because I kind of thought, "Who am I to be a therapist?" My life was such a mess at the time. I just ran away from it, but it kept coming. You know, I kept taking psychology courses or we'd move to a new country. And I met a new lady, a new friend today, and she's an art therapist. Like I kept attracting it into my life, you know, so eventually I went there, I went to that direction. [00:08:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course. And so in your work as an art therapist, what are some stories that stand out where you got to witness, or was your own experience of witnessing art, having a really big impact on someone's life, like a moment to remember? [00:08:50] Corry MacDonald: Oh, I'm so excited to share that, Lindsey, in the book that just came through me. And that's another exciting thing that, you know, we don't even see where we put limits on ourselves. And I just never thought I would write a book. I just thought I was all about creating with a paintbrush or, and hammer and nails. I like sculpting too, but all of a sudden during the lockdown, this book came through and it was-- so many stories came through of what you just asked for. And that was, as the stories came through, I then reconnected with past clients and said, you know, this book, "Life in Full Colors," is coming through. It's called "Unlock your Childlike Curiosity to Uncover and Activate the Creative Intelligence You Are." [00:09:32] So I was starting to write and all these past clients, I said, "Can I use your story?" And there are two that really stand out. But as we're talking, I wonder if I could just read-- it's a few paragraphs-- the story of Talia, because it was powerful what happened in her art, and I think we can all relate. So Talia came when I was just in new to being a creative healer. So this is a section in the book called Facing Fear to Find a New Focus. It's about going to that stuff that is painful, but we can upcycle it. I saw this happen for Talia, a soft-spoken woman who joined one of my workshops to discover that she took up very little space in her own life. While she had a sense that her vibrancy had been swallowed by her new role as a practical-minded, at-home mother, it wasn't until she saw it reflecting right back at her from her artwork that she realized how small her self-worth had become. Amid a chatty group busily creating magazine collages to express who they perceive themselves to be, Talia sat pensively. [00:10:42] The emptiness of her large white paper engulfed the only image she managed to set into her collage: a lone peering eye. For Talia, I could see this eye felt almost unbearable to own. And yet that is exactly what she did. As she looked into the eye, surrounded by all the white space, it looked straight back at her. At first, she gazed back disturbingly as the expanse of emptiness echoed back the emptiness she felt inside. And then something happened. She just started to grow easier with it, that lone eye-- initially piercing and judgmental --transformed for Talia. Now she had a focus partner to help her to look below the surface of her life. Her artwork became an invitation to honor the silent space within her life is in the collage, allowing Talia to be intentional with what she chose to fill that space. As she listened inwardly to her creative intelligence, she recognized she could now consider her happiness and explore her life as a blank page, waiting to be filled. [00:11:57] What followed that powerful pivot point were many more moments for her using art to express her innermost self, and to her delight, her color-filled creations became more and more vibrant and radiant, as did her life, recognizing she'd uncovered her passion. She took up the series of art classes, until one day, she began to introduce herself as an artist. She discovered a whole dimension of herself by literally moving through the eye of her personal storm to allow the fullest expression of herself. [00:12:32]Lindsey Dinneen: Wow. That's really beautiful. [00:12:37] Corry MacDonald: That's all of us. That's all of our story. That's why I share it today. You know, we don't even know what's inside of us until we go there, but that can be the scariest thing in our mind. And yet when we jump in, our heart joins us and we start to get coherence and we get a new rhythm and find things that want it to be expressed just start to flow out. But it takes the fit of courage, doesn't it? [00:13:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, yes, it does. Yeah. That's a beautiful story. I'm so glad she was willing to share that because what a, what a perfect illustration of the way that, you know, one seemingly-- maybe it could have been insignificant, so to speak-- encounter with art, literally transformed her life. I love that. [00:13:30] Corry MacDonald: Yeah, it really did. Yeah. And it's, it was such a joy, Lindsey, because you know, that was seven years ago when I had-- maybe eight now-- and so to go back to Talia and to all the others and say, "Guys, this book is coming through me like a download, and I'm having all these moments pop into my consciousness and they're streaming into these pages. Can I share? And how are you? And I miss you." And then they, all of them said yes, which was really cool, 'cause I met them at a time where they wouldn't want to share, but it was like unanimous. They said, "People need to know that it's that, especially people who think 'I don't have a creative bone in my body' like this, it's not about art, the stuff we're making." You heard, she stuck an eye on a piece of paper and that did something. [00:14:23] And also with, with the art therapy, you know, it's not even about the arts so much. It's about the process. Much of what we do is like just doodles on a page. We're moving energy out onto the page. So it's our emotions are essentially energy in motion. So then we get to actually see them and look at ourselves outside of ourselves. So all of the people who shared their stories, they were in such a different place in their lives, such a more open and more rich place, that it was really amazing, Lindsey, to think, "Wow." That one moment you had on that, in that workshop, you know, you think about the butterfly affect and how that impacts so many pieces down the road and their relationships, their marriages. So it's, you mentioned earlier, like when we take care of ourself, like how powerful that is, and it's true. It has a big resonance, because then those around us in our immediate world feel that it's felt and it's experienced by them. But then it also goes out with, they can measure this now energetically, but what's out to our communities. It goes out to that, even the trees and plants around us, like it's all connected. So it's quite phenomenal when we start to upshift and upcycle ourenergy, the impact we do have on our world. [00:15:49] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, congratulations on your book. This is super exciting. Do you want to share more about how that all came to be? [00:15:59] Corry MacDonald: Yeah. Yeah, because like, as I mentioned, I did not see it coming and yet it's one of those things when you look back, you think, " Come on, Corry, how did you miss that? It's coming." Do you ever have that in your life where you look back and you think, "Oh, there were hints along the way?" [00:16:15] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, yes. [00:16:18] Corry MacDonald: Yeah. And that's how it was with this book because I, I am one of these people that when I go into something, I just dive in so that I kind of forget everything else around me. It's like part of that creative process, right when you're in flow. And so actually the book kind of happened like that, that it was suddenly locked down, and now I'm in Belgium, but at the time we were living in Dubai in the Middle East and it was very strict there and they can be because, you know, they have  cameras and drones everywhere. So it was really locked.  And, but I just really kind of dove into that and thought, "Oh, I'm going to kind of treat this as my own time, like a silent retreat in a sense." And so in the house there, there was a-- we have three teenagers and then the dog and everyone was in the house, my husband, and then there's a little house off to the side, like a little extra room and I just kind of delve in there cause I could get into my own space and I call it in the-- in my book-- the creative space called The Cloud. And I was thinking to get away and have some kind of meditation time, maybe paint a bit. [00:17:29] All of a sudden, I got a kind of message. It's like a whisper in my ear. It said, "Grab your laptop." So I grabbed my laptop. Then after I would meditate all of a sudden, boom, I would just receive like a download of a chapter. It would just come out. And I realized, I think this is a book that I tried to start writing like five years ago, but  I was doing it so much from my mind, my kind of mind and the ego. Like this is my book. I'm going to write my book. And it wasn't flowing. And then life happened that I was really doing a lot of inner work, where it was really getting my heart and mind aligned, which is creating heart coherence and heart math tells us. And when we start using our whole mind-- and of course I share this in the book too-- there's our thinking mind and our feeling mind, and that feeling is located in the heart. And often it's not-- in Western culture-- not really tapped into so much because it looks messy and childlike and it looks like a kid. Think of a kid in preschool, going nuts on a painting.  There's no sense of time. There's no-- it's, it's imaginable, but it's essential because it's our intuition and all of these things. Whereas our thinking mind, it's also essential. It's keeps track of time.  It organizes. It's very, you know, methodical, but if we get too much in that thinking mind, we lose the wonder and magic of life and we lose the creative power. [00:19:00] So I had been doing all this work to integrate the two, and like hard math tells us that there's a magnetic pull to the heart, that feeling mind of 5,000 times stronger than when you're in your, just your thinking mind alone. So all of the sudden I'm within this great alignment that, yeah, I'm sure that's why a book could flow in so quickly. And so all the skeletal structure of the book I had created with my thinking mind five years before, it still was there, it was in my memory. So I had a framework for it, but all those little spontaneous hits of, yeah--Talia's moment, that should go there!  And all of those downloads of memories and ideas and teaching, breaking these seven steps, because it suddenly formed seven transformative tools that leveraged life's challenges is  your ultimate art material. These seven steps showed up. And that was gorgeous because it became like doing a painting to me where you're blending ideas and you're, you know, having kind of a rhythm of things going and I realized, "Well, maybe writing could be another art form that I've never considered for myself, you know?" So it was a fun process for sure. [00:20:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. That sounds so fun. I love that you were sort of in that flow state of just "here it is." It's just coming for you. What a wonderful way to write a book. [00:20:29] Corry MacDonald: Oh my gosh. Yeah, because when I, like I said, five years before I was trying to write a book. And when you're trying, or you're saying, "I should sit down to write," you're not in flow, you're just forcing something. So it was a different feeling. It was power versus force, which I loved. And, and now people feel that when they're, when I'm getting the reviews and people say, "Wow, I feel like I'm..." My husband said, "Corry, this feels like you're right beside me, like your voice. And it feels like I'm in a workshop with you." And that's what I wanted, especially with COVID. Now I want to, to give people the power tools that they could, if they're stuck somewhere, all they need is a pack of crayons and a personal problem or challenge-- well, we all got those-- and to see, to learn, "Oh my gosh, I can take this relationship that seems to be falling apart because I'm stuck at home with my whatever-- grandma or my daughter or my, my spouse-- or I can take this backache that just doesn't go away and I can use it and get information from it through this process." So that's been really exciting because I think that's it. We need to help each other and give each other tools. [00:21:44] And the most beautiful thing is there's a non-for-profit I support in Canada who are bringing art therapy to immigrants and refugees who come and I feel this affinity to them. I've just such a kinship to them because I've lived overseas for almost twenty-five years, willingly. And even then it's been challenging at times, but a lot of people are coming from like war-torn areas or they're just, they're struggling. They leave a traumatized area so often to be retraumatized when they enter into a culture that maybe doesn't accept them or doesn't like the religion or what have you, you know? And so I'm partnered up with this Vancouver Island counseling center for immigrants and refugees. So all the net proceeds of the book go to them. And so not only is the reader uplifted, but they know they're lifting another just by getting the book. So I'm grateful that it all flowed in the way it did. And it's still flowing out and lifting others energetically. [00:22:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, that's beautiful. Oh my goodness. What a cool organization too.  That sounds like such a needed thing. And I just love that that's what they're doing. Oh, very cool. Well, so I'm, I'm curious you know, if there's a listener who is thinking, "Oh, you know, maybe I should try this," do you have like a very, maybe simple exercise for someone to just start with? [00:23:13] Corry MacDonald: Oh, yes, let's share that. That's great. And actually, I put a bunch on my website, which is got an area called like Resources and then under-- well, it's in the dropdown under my book-- and like listeners, definitely, if you're interested, go there 'cause there's some PDFs where I teach you playfully how you can-- for example, there's a "How to Do a Massage". I was missing massages so much. How to create an  massage from the inside out as you use your imaginal world and colors. So there's that. And there's "Create Calm and Colors with Your Breath" and "Creating Direct Path Home to Yourself." There's different fun little exercises you can do that, you can go right inside, but right now you could even do this energetically. And when I say that, I mean, just with your imagination. [00:24:03] Lindsey Dinneen:  Thank you for that. And you know, I'm sure that our listeners are going to want to connect with you and follow your work and hopefully purchase a copy of your book. Is there a way for us to do that? [00:24:16] Corry MacDonald: Yeah, thanks for asking. You can definitely, you're always welcome to tuck into my website, which is creatinghealingwithcorry-- and Corry is spelled C O R R Y .com, creatinghealingwithcorry.com, and that website is just a colorful schmozzle of, of stuff for ya. There's the, like I said, the resources. There, there's all the little links to my social media. So I've just started a new YouTube channel,  just learning all this stuff. And I've put a lot of these kind of playful processes in there in time-lapse. So they're quick. You can just think, "I'm really angry. What do I do?" Tuck in: I've got one on anger. I, just all different trapped emotions that get stuck and make us feel off you can find there, but there's all sorts of stuff. And the information about my book is there as well and how you can find it on Amazon and the, if, if you want to try it out, test it out. There's a little place you can sign in for a free chapter. And I also share a free creative exercise from the book in there, so you can test drive it, but it's on Amazon in ebook and paperback too. And it's called "Life in Full Colors." [00:25:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Perfect. Thank you. Well, I always like to ask my guests the same three questions if you're okay with that. [00:25:40] Corry MacDonald: I love this idea. [00:25:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay. So first of all, how do you personally define art or what is art to you? [00:25:50] Corry MacDonald: Oh, art to me is pure expression from anybody's soul: on a page, in a meal, it can be the way they garden, the way they put themselves together with their clothes, or sculpture, music. Oh, any pure expression from the soul. [00:26:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, I love that. Okay. And then what do you think is the most important role of an artist? [00:26:17]Corry MacDonald: Oh, artists are the way-showers.  Most of us are stuck in our, our brains, myself included. Why do you think I share this? I have to learn what I'm sharing. So the artists seem to know that when they go into that flow state, when they go into that still point inside and bring something into the world that was never seen before, that they're dovetailing with all of life, with consciousness itself. And so  they show those who've never gone there before what's possible, and they bring something new to form, which is sheer magic. [00:26:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, wow. That's a really unique perspective. Thank you for that. I love that. And then my final question, and I'll define my terms a little bit, but do you think that art should be inclusive or exclusive? And by inclusive, I'm referring to an artist who puts their work out into the world and provide some context behind it, whether it's a title or program notes or the inspiration, something to give a little bit of background. Versus exclusive referring to an artist who puts their work out there and doesn't provide context so it's solely up to the viewer to determine what they will. [00:27:32] Corry MacDonald: Oh my gosh, lindsey. Oh, that question just got me so excited because, what a question, right? Because both of them have such a different experience. They offer a different experience. I guess I'm going to answer the latter, in that because of who I am and what I do-- because why I say that is-- so often when someone is new working with me and they decide to express themselves from their heart, they'll be timid the first time. And they'll say, "Well, I feel this is what's coming out of me. Maybe this image is about me wanting to discover myself." And then they'll look at me and say, "But what do you see, Corry?" And then I laugh because I say, "Well, everything I see is going to be about Corry's story." Just about the same in the workshop group. Like if Lindsey looked at it, you would bring your interpretation for it. [00:28:31] So I feel that it's quite gorgeous when someone just doesn't explain what it's about. And then all of us can, our souls will make meaning from whatever medicine we need from it, you know? And that's quite powerful to know that, wow, we are able to walk up to something-- I'll even do workshops where I'll say, "Go out in the woods and see what's calling you, bring it back and let's make a group sculpture of it." But each person comes back with a stone or something that has a message for them. So  we're meaning makers. So I like the idea of keeping it kind of open, but letting everybody take responsibility for their own meaning and not, you know, and not me saying, "Well, I see this, so it's that." yeah, that's a great question. Those are great questions, Lindsey. Oh my gosh. Thank you for that. [00:29:24] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course! Thank you. Well, I love hearing people's perspective and their answers on those questions because, you know, like art, it's completely subjective and it's so much fun to hear people's different interpretations. And like you were saying, sort of you bring your own story into it too, which is fun. [00:29:42] Corry MacDonald: So it is, but on the flip side of that, I have done that where I had a show and then I invited actually a lot of people who were creating in workshops. And I said, "You guys, now you see, you are creative powerhouses, like join me in the show." And then when we started to hang it,  so many people requested, "Please share some information behind these paintings because we're so curious." So I see the validity of both, you know, and in the end, it was chosen that, okay, we'll share a little bit about these pieces. So it's kind of cool. Like there's, there's, you can have it all and it can all benefit the, the universe because we're always curious ones, aren't we? [00:30:25] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so very much for being here today, Corry, I really appreciate it. I love your insight into art. I love your illustration about upcycling, and I just keep thinking, keep picturing a mosaic, you know, how those are historically created with broken tiles, and they're made into something new and beautiful. And I just keep thinking about your, your artwork and your perspective on that. And I just love it. So thank you so much for sharing today. I just really appreciate you. [00:31:00] Corry MacDonald: Well, I received that in full and I flew it right back to you for creating this space where these sorts of things can be shared because art matters. Beauty matters. If ever we knew that more than ever is now when so much has shut down, we need to share the things that bring our souls alive. So thank you so much for having me. It's been so much fun. [00:31:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, of course, of course. Well, and thank you so much, everyone who has listened to this episode, and I hope you do check out Corry's work. And I, I just appreciate you listening to this episode. And if you're feeling as inspired as I am right now, I would love if you would share this with a friend or two, and we will catch you next time. [00:31:48] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Tuesday, June 1st marks Artfully Told's one year anniversary, so Lindsey & Kevin Dinneen share about lessons learned and behind-the-scenes stories from one year of podcasting, the most recent dance-for-film production that they produced, and the exciting news for VidaDance Company's first live performance since 2019! (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is VidaDance's KC Fringe promo image for our filmed production, "When.")   Get the latest news from VidaDance Company: www.vidadancecompany.com Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 55 – Lindsey & Kevin Dinneen Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited about today because this is a pretty special episode. Tomorrow, June 1st, marks Artfully Told's one year anniversary. And so today I invited my husband, Kevin, to come back to the show. Thank you for being here today, Kevin. [00:00:55] Kevin Dinneen: Thank you for having me. [00:00:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I thought we would just talk about, you know, one year of Artfully Told and sort of maybe what we've been up to art wise over the last year, or what's coming up just to celebrate all things art. Yeah. So Yeah. So, gosh, do you have any questions for me right off the bat? Because I feel like this is... [00:01:17] Kevin Dinneen: yeah, I do. So, so one year in how many, how many episodes is that? How many interviews? [00:01:23] Lindsey Dinneen: So I have, at this point, this will be my 55th episode published because I did start with a few at the launch. [00:01:32] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So in those 55 episodes, what is something that you've learned? Sort of, is there a general sense of something that you've learned or something that you've kind of appreciated in general that you didn't expect, or? [00:01:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, I think a lot of interesting things have emerged from the process. Of course, you know, this is my first time hosting a podcast and being part of it from start to finish. So I've, I've learned a lot about the process of actually producing a podcast and what all goes into that... [00:02:07] Kevin Dinneen: The technical aspects. [00:02:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. [00:02:10]Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, so you learned all the technical aspects of it. [00:02:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And then the, I think one of the most interesting prevailing themes-- that was a little surprising to me only because I hadn't thought about it this way was-- you know, I asked my guests the same three questions every time. And one of them is, "what do you think is the most important role of an artist?" And I've gotten a lot of amazing answers, but one of the most commonly expressed answers is a form of, "to be true to yourself" or "to be honest," or, you know, those kinds of answers. And what's interesting to me about that is, you know, as a, as an artist, who's always taken on a different persona, like as a character or, you know, I'm portraying a certain emotion or something like that, it's not necessarily-- it's not like I'm being dishonest in the portrayal-- but my version of art... [00:03:07] Like to me, it was interesting because for somebody who is just, is maybe a visual artist expressing themselves through painting or something like that, then to be true to themselves or honest is like them taking their truth and putting it onto like a canvas or something like that. Well, it was interesting about being an artist who takes on somebody else's persona, is that I want to do that character justice for that. At the same time, it's not me being myself honest, if that makes sense? And so that was always kind of an interesting answer that I've really enjoyed kind of delving into in a different way, because my answer to that question is different, but it's only because of the way that my art has come out so far, if that makes any sense. [00:03:55]Kevin Dinneen: Could you say that, that you're being true to your character? [00:03:58]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. [00:03:59] Kevin Dinneen: For portrayal? [00:04:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, sure. I mean, I would always want to do that, but I think, I think I just hadn't, I hadn't labeled it as the most important thing for an artist because of the kind of work that I do. So I just really liked that perspective and thinking about how important that is to so many artists. [00:04:20] Kevin Dinneen: So is there anything, can you think of a particular moment or two that surprised you? [00:04:27]Lindsey Dinneen:  I have definitely had some guests, you know, with varied backgrounds where... well, I think, you know what, okay. Here's one thing that has been really important for me to learn and understand would be, especially people who've had different experiences with art based on, you know, their race or gender or whatever else . And, and it's so specific because the way that artists are treated, just, I guess like every human being-- unfortunately or fortunately-- has been treated, is different in the arts world. And so I think what has been interesting to me is learning the, the stories about people overcoming challenges that were kind of put in their way because of these different aspects of who they are, where it should, I think, just be about, you know, the right person for the right role or, you know, you're, you're a talented artist, regardless of what you look like or who you are. Everyone's experience is so different based on kind of who they are, what they look like, and stuff like that. So that's been really important for me, I think, to, to listen to these stories and to share them, because it provides a different perspective than maybe I would have had myself, and that's what I love about the podcast too. [00:05:48] Kevin Dinneen: You get to maybe not experience what they experienced, but you get an idea of that experience. [00:05:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:05:55] Kevin Dinneen: It broadens your own kind of vision of art. [00:05:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. It broadens the vision. And I don't force this conversation but it does open up conversations that might otherwise be difficult to have, or wouldn't come up necessarily, 'cause they're not always fun to talk about per se, but when you create a space where you can share about the good, the bad and the ugly, I think that that's been one of the most wonderful things is having people share honestly about their experiences. [00:06:26]Kevin Dinneen: Looking forward, for the next year, the next 55 podcasts, is there-- or episodes I should say. [00:06:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Woo. [00:06:35] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. I have big dreams for you. [00:06:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh boy. I won't be sleeping ever. [00:06:41]Kevin Dinneen: So in the next 55 episodes, is there something that you would like to be intentional about and, and kind of focus on or? I know this year has just kind of been... [00:06:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Exploration? [00:06:55] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. You know, you've been kind of learning and experiencing. And, and are there any changes you'd like to make or in your, in your approach or anything like that? [00:07:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I really like the conversations that have emerged naturally through these episodes. And I would like to keep it that sort of organic, like it's just the two of us having a conversation about art. So it doesn't feel as... [00:07:20] Kevin Dinneen: That's the only agenda. [00:07:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:07:22] Kevin Dinneen: Talk about art. [00:07:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Talk about art and, and there's, that can go in so many different directions, but as long as we kind of keep the central theme of art and, and, and the stories that connect us. I think that that's really important to me. I particularly love hearing about certain moments that really stand out to people. So I think emphasizing that, yes, it's important to share about our creative processes and things like that. And I think that's very interesting, especially if like, I'm not a writer. So listening to a writer talk about their process is really cool to me, but I also really love the moments when people say, "You know, I went to this art gallery and I saw this one painting, and this one painting for whatever reason, spoke to me that day. And it changed my perspective on my relationship with my dad." Or something like that, where, you know, those moments are so cool and they happen. [00:08:15] And I think we just need to talk about them more. So I think I'm looking forward to hearing more and more stories about the power of, of art. And then I think the other thing that I'm gonna mix up and play with a little bit is, now you've all had the opportunity to hear from a lot of different people about their perspectives on my final three questions. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be mixing those up. I'm kind of excited about that. I don't have them in stone yet. [00:08:43] Kevin Dinneen: That was my next, my next question. Do we get a preview of what any of those questions are? [00:08:49] Lindsey Dinneen: I'll give you one, 'cause it's a good one to probably ponder before coming on the show, although maybe, you know, again-- sometimes the spur of the moment answers are, are particularly delightful too. But I think one of the questions I want to ask is something along the lines of what you asked me at one of our episodes of,  you know, "Say this is your last day to live and you only get to experience one thing of art-- one show, one piece, one book, whatever-- one last time, what would that be and why?" And I just think that's such an interesting question to ask, because I think it'll, it'll tell us a lot about the individuals and sort of what means the most, you know, thinking about those last few moments. I think that will be really cool. [00:09:33] Kevin Dinneen: Are you going to keep any of the others or completely switch it up? [00:09:36] Lindsey Dinneen: I don't know. I don't know. I think probably that new question will become the new third question. I do like, I like all the questions. This is the problem, but I also think it's maybe time to do some new ones, so I don't know. TBD. [00:09:53] Kevin Dinneen: All right. So outside of the, the podcast, anything interesting in this past year related to art that stands out for you? [00:10:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think this has been a really wonky season for a lot of artists, but so there wasn't as much, there wasn't as much creative art stuff that I got to do last year. But as we're starting to kind of see things open back up, I'm really excited. Actually, yesterday we just finished wrapping up filming for  my professional company's very first dance for film production. We're fondly referring to it as your term, which is a dancical. In fact, you want to talk about why we're calling it a dancicle. [00:10:40] Kevin Dinneen: So this year was so unique. And you know, we had the opportunity for your, your company to perform, but not live. We could perform on a stage and film it. [00:10:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:10:56]Kevin Dinneen: But you know, that, that really poses an interesting challenge because it's not very immersive. [00:11:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:11:03]Kevin Dinneen: You're just sitting there watching a video of something that happened live. And you know, I think that's one thing that "Hamilton" did well. It was, it was well-produced when they did it on stage very much and showed it in video. [00:11:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yep. [00:11:20]Kevin Dinneen: But I think it's really hard to do well, and we have a little bit smaller of a budget. [00:11:31] Lindsey Dinneen: A hundred or two bucks maybe. Right. [00:11:34]Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, so we had to be creative and, and had the idea to film a dance, but movie style, on locations. And so basically it's like a musical because it is a video, a movie, but there's no dialogue, it's all, it's dance. But it is, you know, in, on set and in locations and things like that with a soundtrack. So, so not all of it is dancing. So that's why it's a dancical. Just like in a musical, it's not all singing. So that's where, that's where the term dancical came from. [00:12:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, exactly. I love it. Yeah. I'm super excited for so many reasons, but I think that that particular adventure is going to be really cool to see it come together. I mean, it was such an interesting process because, you know, I've never-- obviously we've had things filmed before, but it, it's kind of like what Kevin was saying in the sense of like, we do this stage production. There's this one, maybe two camera angles, but it's, it's mostly just to have like a memory of it. And so to then go and work with a filmmaker-- and we have the great privilege of working with Alden Miller, who was actually a previous guest on Artfully Told. So definitely go check out his episode. He has a lot of great insight and wisdom to share and, but, yeah. So we've been working with him and, you know, he's fantastic. He's an award winning documentary filmmaker. So he knows exactly what he's doing. And he was so gracious to work with a company that is super enthusiastic, but doesn't know the ropes behind creating a film, right? So, you know, from the get go, it was a collaborative process. Kevin was the person who came up with the storyline. I was frankly, not feeling very inspired. I, I had these ideas. I just didn't feel like any of them would work. And then one day, Kevin had this-- well, I'll let you tell this part of the story if you're okay with it. [00:13:36]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, so I, I was, I dunno what you would say, fulfilling a challenge. The challenge was to memorize something and I had a week to memorize something, some sort of text, and I chose Rudyard Kipling's poem, "If," and it was a poem that he wrote for his son. And I was pretty inspired by it because it, it talks about being a man, but you know, really it's just about being a legitimate, good person and basically how to act. And I was inspired by it and felt like we could come up with a story that embodies, and, you know, makes it into a visual source to tell this story. So that was, that was my inspiration. So then you read it and you're like," Yeah. That's okay." And... [00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I loved the poem. I just also couldn't picture, right.... [00:14:38] Kevin Dinneen: I mean, like that's an okay inspiration for a thing, but it didn't quite... [00:14:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Where could this lead to in a dance production kind of thing. [00:14:45] Kevin Dinneen: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So then we kind of hashed it out, what it might look like, some storyline ideas. And then, yeah, it was at one point, probably one of my prouder moments when you're like, "Okay, this could probably work." [00:14:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, what's cool about the poem and maybe we can post a copy or at least a link to, to view it. We'll do that in our show notes, but it's, it's a fantastic poem. It's really inspiring. And, it's kind of just sort of naturally broken into four sections. And so Kevin took the four sections and put a storyline. So there's sort of four storylines that follow, you know, in our case, women, mostly. But, but follow women through their individual storylines, but what's kind of cool about the way that it's turned out, is they're interwoven in interesting ways. So you, you sort of see the characters woven into the different scenes, and I think that's going to be a really cool aspect of it. [00:15:40] Like, you know, you'll see, for example, the lead characters from the first scene, you'll see them visiting the restaurant in the second scene, you know, and, and so sort of it kind of weaves through. So I think it's actually going to turn out really cool. But yeah, and so once, once Kevin had sort of narrowed it down, we had sort of hashed it out a little bit, we then met with Alden and really kind of had like a brainstorming, "here's what we're thinking." But he's essentially a professional storyteller, so like, this is his area. So like, "What do you see in and how can we make this all work together?" And so once that process got done, then it was a matter of, well, I think you had already picked out music by that time too. [00:16:20]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, we had had all the music ready. And what's interesting about that is when we're coming up with our storyline and he's saying, "Okay, where, where is this going to be?" Oh, I don't know. You know, we're just used to always having a stage. That's where it's going to be. So that was another interesting element and, and sort of challenge is finding locations to shoot and getting permission and jumping through all the hoops and, there's all sorts of things that we had to do. All sorts of things that we're not used to doing that it was a learning process. [00:16:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and honestly, I'll just-- to be totally frank, you know, normally when we're doing this process, I'm very used to the process of coordinating people with rehearsal time, and we usually have one space that we're rehearsing in. So it's, it's a very easy process in the sense of, yeah, we're trying to figure out overlapping schedules of availability, but it's that compared to time slots and what we need? It's not that bad, and I've done it a lot, so I'm very comfortable with it. But this was this whole other layer of not only are we coordinating people's availability, but we're also coordinating Alden's availability with that, and on top of that venue availability, and on top of that weather conditions. So frankly it was one of the most stressful periods of my life, probably since awhile, because there was just so much to coordinate and I just wasn't, I also wasn't aware of the length of time it takes to coordinate things like that. 'Cause you know, I'm kind of used to-- all right, this studio is available then. Perfect. So this is how we'll fit it in, versus, you know, like filming at a college. There's this entire process that you have to go through of getting approved and where exactly are you going to film and then filling out all the paperwork and stuff like that. And so the lead time is so much longer. [00:18:16] Kevin Dinneen: And then finding a time where students and teachers aren't going to be interrupted with the filming and. [00:18:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:18:23] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. All sorts of things. [00:18:24] Lindsey Dinneen: All sorts of things. So yeah, it was just a totally different process. But then, so there was that learning curve, but then there was a learning curve of actually like being in the process of the actual filming taking place and not realizing certain things, which has been really cool, actually. Like, you know, when you're filming a movie, for instance, you're going to have the characters change costumes, change clothes between different days or different scenes. That makes complete sense to me. But as a dancer who usually sticks with, you know, dance kind of choreography, usually if you're establishing a character, you keep their costume the same throughout, 'cause that way it's easy to identify as an audience like, "Oh, you know, Jane always wears her blue gingham dress. "So you know that's Jane, if that makes sense, partly because we don't have the advantage of getting to see people's faces all that close. And so it is important to kind of establish, but now it was like, "Oh right, we should change hairstyles. We should change maybe even a little bit different makeup. We need to change the clothes from day to day." So it looks like not just one long one day, you know, but different days. And this is a progressive storyline. That was funny, but you know, not something I would have thought of. [00:19:45] Kevin Dinneen: And the thing that stood out for me that was probably the most different that I noticed was for dance, you rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, and then boom, you have one shot and you get it perfect. And then in this, rehearsing is almost worthless because if you go to a space that is not the film set and rehearse, it's not going to be the same. And so then when you get on to set, you have, you have different things that get in the way or it's carpet and you didn't rehearse on carpet. So this turn is not gonna work. So you just get there and you do a bunch of takes. [00:20:30] Lindsey Dinneen: You're absolutely right. And certain things too, you know, there were, there were certain spaces that we didn't even have access to before the day of the filming. Well, I guess all of them where we had kind of, we had an idea of the space and what, what we could use of it, but it's still different, you know? 'Cause you take away the certain image and you kind of say, "Okay, this is, I think, choreography that's gonna fit in right here." But then you get there and you realize that either things have moved or they actually don't want you to touch this one thing that you thought it would be okay if, you know, you use the counter as like a barre or, you know, stuff like that, where it-- that's all fine, well, and good. It's just, it was really interesting 'cause it was like, okay, set the choreography. Try to be as prepared as you can be. And then the day of is like completely flexible and things changed like that, you know? And it was, I'm so grateful. I work with such amazing dancers who are totally fine with that. There were no complaints, there were no issues whatsoever. They were like, "Sure. Okay. Yeah." And then, you know, you're doing your fourth, fifth take of the exact same moment. And we're just not used to that, but you know, everyone was like, "This is fun," you know? [00:21:42] Kevin Dinneen: And the feedback from the dancers, they're like, "Oh, would it work if I did this, or maybe I could do this?" just like on film day. [00:21:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:21:51] Kevin Dinneen: That doesn't happen in productions. [00:21:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. "Let's change this!". [00:21:55] Kevin Dinneen: You're not rehearsing for month, and then like, "You know, I was thinking!" [00:21:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Let's do it this way instead. [00:22:00] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. [00:22:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:22:02] Kevin Dinneen: And so that was fun. [00:22:03] Lindsey Dinneen: It was fun. [00:22:03] Kevin Dinneen: It was fun. And, and worked really well. [00:22:08] Lindsey Dinneen: I think so too.  And I think, you know, and it seems so obvious when I think about it in context, but without having someone to say, "You know, you're going to have to be loose with your musical interpretation of some of these movements so that it can be adopted for film." It just, it wasn't something that I had really thought about. So I think the learning curve has been a lot of fun too. There would be moments when, you know, Alden would say, "Okay, so from my perspective as a filmmaker, I'm seeing this. Now I know this is different than a normal dance production."  And so, you know, funny things like that, where all of a sudden be like, "Oh, okay, actually, can you start from the other side and do your thing the reverse way?" And, and, you know, just things I just didn't think about. It was great. [00:22:52] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And now, it's kind of out of your hands... [00:22:55] Lindsey Dinneen: It is! [00:22:55] Kevin Dinneen: It's up to Alden and his superpower... [00:22:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Magical genius... [00:23:00] Kevin Dinneen: Of editing. [00:23:03] Lindsey Dinneen: So we'll see, but we're really excited. It's going to premiere at the Kansas City Fringe Festival in July. We will definitely be talking about that closer to the time, but keep your eyes open on our company website, which is www.vidadancecompany.com and also www.kcfringe.org, because that's where you'll be able to take advantage of seeing us dance and seeing this brand new production. [00:23:33] Kevin Dinneen: And I think, I don't know of another movie like this. I think this might be pretty close to the first of its kind. There's probably very few people that have tried this. [00:23:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, 'cause it's, it's not like you see a lot of really good like dance movies or dance inspired movies where it's about a group of dancers, but there's always dialogue. [00:24:01]Kevin Dinneen: And it's about dance. It's not using dance as the medium. [00:24:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of the way... [00:24:07] Kevin Dinneen: To tell the story. [00:24:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:10] Kevin Dinneen: 'Cause this isn't about dance. [00:24:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. It's using... [00:24:13] Kevin Dinneen: It is dance. [00:24:14] Lindsey Dinneen: It is dance. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I like it. And I think that's why dancical is so appropriate, because it's a good way of describing it. So yeah. So our production is called "When," so, you know the idea behind that was, Kipling's poem, "If," and then we sort of interpreted that to be, when you are these things, then this is what/ who you can become or who you can be and how you can navigate life. So it's really exciting. [00:24:40] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. [00:24:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So that was the latest project that we were working on. [00:24:48]Kevin Dinneen: So you got some good news yesterday, I think it was, and it's art related. [00:24:55] Lindsey Dinneen: It is art-related. So we booked the theater at Union Station in Kansas City for a reprise of our unique Nutcracker called "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker." And on top of that, we got word from the aerial dance company, Kansas City Aerial Arts, that we have partnered with in the past. And they are going to be joining us for this production again, which is so exciting. I'm so thrilled because they're wonderful people, just so great to work with and bring such a cool, unique element. So that's going to be the first weekend of December and I am so excited. Live performances are going to be back! [00:25:44] Kevin Dinneen: All right. Yeah. Cool. Well,. I do want to say congratulations on the one year anniversary you made it a year. [00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: I did! Successfully. We're still going! [00:25:59] Kevin Dinneen: And, and learned everything from scratch. Taught yourself. You've got your setup. It's a one-woman show. You've, you've rocked it, and people love it. So, good job. Congratulations. [00:26:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Awesome. Thanks. Well, so I'm just curious since I'm now experimenting with different questions. Do you have any different questions that you would like to ask me? We can test them out in real time. [00:26:23] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. [00:26:23] Lindsey Dinneen: This is off the cuff, guys. [00:26:24] Kevin Dinneen: Well, this whole episode is. We didn't talk about this. [00:26:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, this is very true. [00:26:28] Kevin Dinneen: Gosh. Is there something that stands out to you as, as something that is art related that you would love to do that is completely outside of your wheelhouse and maybe you've so far felt a little intimidated, and that just kind of held you back? Or "I've never even, I wouldn't know where to start?" Or is there something like that that you would love to do? It's just kind of been outside your wheelhouse, but you would love to try. [00:26:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I have two pipe dreams. One is to act. I really think I would enjoy acting. I, I love that element that I get to do in dance productions. So I actually think that having a speaking role in like a play or something else would be really cool, but it's so intimidating to me. I can memorize choreography. I'm sure I could figure out how to memorize lines, but it feels different. I'll put it that way. And a different kind of vulnerable.  I've kind of gotten used to the way dance is vulnerable, but that would be like a whole 'nother level. So that's, that's one pipe dream. And the other one would be singing. I love singing, but I don't have any formal training, and I would absolutely need it if I ever try to pursue anything, I don't think anyone would be super thrilled to hear me without it. But yeah,  those are the two things that are kind of hanging out there that I'd love to do at some point. [00:27:51] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Okay. So, so in the world of art, just in general, which is the whole world, right? [00:27:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. The world is art. [00:28:00]Kevin Dinneen: So let's, let's see. Maybe we can narrow that down. What, what would you like to see in the world of creating art or displaying art or making it available to people, what change would you like to see  in how art works basically? In general, what's, what's a change you'd like to see? [00:28:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's a great question. I really like it. I think, I think one change I would really like to see is more of an exposure to arts from a young age, more of a chance to participate in arts from a young age.  It's difficult because arts tend to be the first thing that get cut in a school's budget, right? And, you know, study after study has proven that kiddos who are involved in arts usually do better academically and socially and things like that, build really good life skills, but it is, you know, I also can understand how from just a fiscal responsibility perspective, people would cut that, because there are other things that are important too. But when that happens, there's just such a gap in a child's education and even a way of positively expressing themselves and learning that  there's a lot of emotion that doesn't necessarily need to be expressed in words, or in behavioral changes. You could take that emotion and whatever is coming up and put it onto a canvas or into a dance or into a song. And I think that if we could do that at a younger age to nurture this art appreciation, I think that that would actually have a really positive impact on the world, because there'd be so many more people able to express themselves.  And like I said, it doesn't have to be words. It could be. Maybe that's the way you choose to, but it could be these grand masterpieces that we would never get otherwise, because a child was one time told, "Oh, that's a silly drawing" or something like that. So I think if we could encourage the arts and participation in the arts from a younger age, that would be my dream. [00:30:08] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So it's no surprise then that you teach young students. [00:30:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I suppose so! [00:30:15] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. And, and that's been important to you, so that makes sense. [00:30:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:30:19]Kevin Dinneen: So do I have to come up with a third one? [00:30:21] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I don't think so. I think those are two really good ones. Yeah. [00:30:25] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Okay. I'll do a third one in another episode. [00:30:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, that's fair! Alright. Well, thank you, Kevin, for being my guest host today and asking good questions and then, you know, helping me tell our stories. I appreciate it. And I, I really have to say this has been such a cool opportunity for me. I have loved getting to talk to people who are doing just amazing things with their lives. And, you know, art plays a big role in that for these people, but just who they are and how they're contributing is so cool. And the power of the arts, and just being able to have these honest conversations about the good, the bad and the ugly in the art world, I think has been outstanding for me personally. Every time I get to record an episode, it just sort of fills my soul back up and, and, you know, it reminds me that there is a lot of good in the world and people are doing really good things. And I think that's so important to remember. [00:31:29]So, so I guess I have a twofold thanks. One part of that thanks is to everyone who's been a guest so far on Artfully Told and has been willing to be honest and transparent and willing for me to ask you questions that might kind of throw you for a second, but that you're willing to dive a little deeper into some of the concepts, and I really appreciate that. And so thank you to everyone who's been a guest, but also a huge thank you to everyone who has been a supporter by listening to the episodes and whether you let me know you're listening or not, I just appreciate each and every one of you because you are what keeps us going. So thank you. Happy one year! This is really exciting. I'm super stoked. I don't ever say the word stoked, but here we are. I'm just that excited and I can't wait to share art with the world. And I hope you're feeling inspired. I hope you share this episode, or one of the many that are available and many more to come, with a friend and we will catch you next time. [00:32:38] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Please Note:  This was recorded as a Facebook Live earlier this year prior to the recent ruling to overturn the California End of Life Options Act 2015 by Riverside County Superior Court Judge. In response, California Attorney General Xavier Becerra filed an emergency appeal seeking a stay of Superior Court Judge Daniel Ottolia's ruling that invalidated the less than two-year-old medical aid-in-dying law.  "It is important to note the ruling did not invalidate the law or the court would have said so explicitly in its order, so the law remains in effect until further notice," said John C. Kappos, a partner in the O'Melveny law firm representing Compassion & Choices. If this law and the right to die with dignity is important to you, we urge you to learn more from Compassion and Choices the organization that helped get the law passed.  Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Need more information? Contact Dr. Bob for a free consultation. Transcript Dr. Bob: On this episode, Elizabeth Semenova and I speak very frankly about what it's like to support people through Medical Aid and Dying. We explain the process; we discuss who asks for this kind of support and why there are still so many barriers. This was originally captured as a Facebook Live and repurposed as a podcast because this information is so vitally important. Please share the podcast with everyone and anyone you feel would benefit from listening. Thank you. Dr. Bob: I'm going to do a little bit of introduction for myself, if you're watching this and you have been on the integrated MD Care site, you probably know a bit about me. I've been a physician for 25/ 30 years, somewhere in that range. Over the past several years I've been focusing on providing care for people who are dealing with complex illnesses, the challenges of aging, the challenges of dying. During these few years, I've discovered a lot of gaps in the health care system that cause a lot of challenges for people. Dr. Bob: We developed a medical practice to try to address those big challenges in those big gaps that we've encountered. It's been really remarkable to be able to do medical care in a way that is truly sensitive to what people are really looking for and what their families are looking for that is not constrained and limited to what the medical system will allow. It's not constrained by what Medicare will pay, what insurance will pay. We allow people to access us completely and fully and we are there to support them in a very holistic way with medical physician care, nursing care, social working care and then a whole team of therapists. Massage therapists, music therapists, acupuncturists, nutritionists. Dr. Bob: So that has been really fascinating and phenomenal. Elizabeth came along in the last several months. Really, she was drawn primarily to the true end of life care that we deliver and has been truly surprised how beautifully we are able to care for people who aren't necessarily dying as well. Elizabeth: Absolutely, yeah. Dr. Bob: So we can talk about all the different aspects of that, but we are here today to really talk about Medical Aid and Dying. Because, shortly after we started this practice, back in January 2016 California became one of the few states in the United States that does allow physician-assisted death. Dr. Bob: It allows what is also known as Death with Dignity, Medical Aid in Dying. The California End of Life Option Act passed in June 2016. At that point, a person with a terminal illness, an adult who is competent, had the ability to request a prescription of medicine from their physician, from a physician. That if taken, would allow them to have a very peaceful, dignified death at a place and time of their choosing. Since June 2016 we have become essentially experts and kind of the go-to team in San Diego for sure and actually throughout a good portion of Southern California because other physicians are reluctant to participate or because the systems that the patients are in make it very difficult or impossible for them to take advantage of this law. There is a lot of confusion about it. It's a very complex, emotionally charged issue. We as a team, Elizabeth and I, along with other members of our team have taken it upon ourselves to become true experts and guides so that people can get taken care of in a way that is most meaningful and sensitive. In a way that allows them to be in control and determine the course of their life leading up to their death and how they are going to die. That's why we are here. We want to educate; we want to inform, we want people to not be afraid of the unknowns. We want to dispel the myths. I'm passionate about that. We work together, and I think we do a very good job as a team, of supporting patients and families. I'd like to have Elizabeth share a little about why this is so important to her and then we are going to get into some more of the specifics about what's actually taking place, the requirements, how the process works and if there are questions people have we are going to answer those as well. We are going to go for about 20/ 25 minutes, and if it turns out that we don't get through enough of our material then we will have another session, but we don't want to make this too long. We want to make it concise, meaningful and impactful. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. Elizabeth: Okay. I started as a hospice social worker, and I became an advocate for Aid and Dying because I learned about the law. Learned that there were not a lot of options, policies, procedures in place, in Southern California when I started working in hospice for people to take advantage of and participate in the End of Life Option Act. Elizabeth: There were very, very, very few resources. There were no phone numbers to call of people who would answer questions. There were no experts who, well not no experts, who thoroughly understood the law but it was very hard to access that information. Elizabeth: I did my best to find it and became connected with some groups and some individuals who were experienced with and understood the law and became really passionate about pursuing advocacy and allowing as many people to have access to that information as possible. I started working on sharing that information and being a resource and learning everything that I could so that other people could have that. How I became connected with Integrated MD care and with you, I found you as a resource for another client, and we started having conversations, and I learned that it was possible to be supportive of people through this process through the work you were doing and I took the opportunity to become a part of it. We have done a lot to support a lot of people, and it's become a really special part of our work and my life. Dr. Bob: Why is it so important to you? Why is it so important to you for people to have access and the information? Elizabeth: I really believe that every life can only be best lived if you know all of the options that you have available to you. So how can you make choices without information? Right? So when it comes to something like this which is a life and death situation, quite literally, there are limited resources for people to make informed choices. What could possibly be more important than having access to information about what your legal rights are to how you live and die? With California only having begun this process of Aid and Dying. Exploring different perspectives and legal options and philosophical positions on the subject, I think it's really important to open that conversation and to allow people who support it as well as people who are against it to have those conversations and to explore how they feel about it and why. Then of course for the people who want to participate, who want information, resources, support in the process they have every legal right to it, in my opinion, they have every moral right to it and if there are no other people who are willing to support them I feel it is my duty to do that. Dr. Bob: Awesome. And you do it well. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah it's kind of crazy to think we have this legal process in place. People have spoken up and said, we want to have access to this, and we believe it's the right thing. Despite the fact that we have a law in place that allows it, it was so difficult, and it's still is to some degree, but especially in the beginning, it was like a vast wasteland. If somebody wanted to find out how to access this process, no one could really give them adequate information. There were organizations that would tell them what the process is and how it happens but there was no one stepping up to say 'I'll support you.' There were no physicians, and there was no one who was willing to give the name of a physician who was willing. It was very frustrating in the beginning of this process, in the first, I would say, the first year and a half. Still, to some degree, getting the right information, getting put in touch with those who will support it is difficult or impossible. Even some of the hospital systems that do support Medical Aid and Dying their process is very laborious, and there are so many steps that people have to go through that in many cases they can't get through it all. Our practice we are filling a need. Our whole purpose in being is to fill the gaps in health care that cause people to struggle. One of my mantras is 'Death is inevitable, suffering is not.' Right. We are all going to die, but death does not have to be terribly painful or a struggle. It can be a beautiful, peaceful, transformative process. We've been involved in enough End of Life scenarios that I can say that with great confidence that given the right approach, the right information, the right guidance, the right support it can always be a comfortable and essentially beautiful process. Elizabeth: Something that is important too also is to have people who have experience with these processes these struggles that people have. Not just anyone can make it an easy process. Not just anyone can make it a smooth process. You have to have it those obstacles you have experienced what the difficulties are and where the glitches are and in order to be able to fill those gaps you have to know where they are. Dr. Bob: Right. Elizabeth: Sometimes that comes from just falling into the hole and climbing out which is something we have experienced a few times. Dr. Bob: Having been through it enough times to... and of course we will come across- Elizabeth: More... Dr. Bob: Additional obstacles but we'll help...and that doesn't just apply to the Medical Aid and Dying it applies to every aspect of health care, which of course, becomes more complex and treacherous as people's health becomes more complicated and their conditions become more dire, and their needs increase. Hospice, yes it's a wonderful concept, and it's a wonderful benefit, but in many cases, it's not enough. Palliative Care, in theory, great concept, we need more Palliative Care physicians and teams and that kind of an approach, but in many cases, it's not enough. What we are trying to do is figure out how to be enough. How people can get enough in every scenario. We are specifically here talking about Medical Aid and Dying. In California, the actual law is called The End of Life Option Act. It was actually signed into law by Governor Brown in October 2015, and it became effective June 9th, 2016. I'll note that just yesterday the Governor of Hawaii signed the bill to make Medical Aid and Dying legal in Hawaii. The actual process will begin January 1st, 2019. There is a period of time, like there was in California, a waiting period, while they're getting all the processes in place and the legal issues dealt with. Elizabeth: Which you would think, that would be the time frame that health care intuitions would establish policies, would determine what they were going to do and how they were going to help. Dr. Bob: One would think. Elizabeth: You would think. Dr. Bob: Didn't happen here. Elizabeth: That didn't happen here. Dr. Bob: So maybe Hawaii will learn from what happened in California recently when all of a sudden June 9th comes, and still nobody knows what to do. What we are becoming actually, is a resource for people throughout California. Because we have been through this so many times now and we have such experience, we know where the obstacles are, we know where this landscape can be a bit treacherous. But, if you understand how to navigate it doesn't have to be. Elizabeth: We have become a resource not just for individuals who are interested in participating or who want to find out if they qualify but for other healthcare institutions who are trying to figure out how best to support their patients and their loved ones. TO give them without the experience that they need without having the experience of knowing what this looks like. Dr. Bob: Yup. Training hospice agencies. Training medical groups. At the heart of it, we just want to make sure that people get what they deserve, what they need and what they deserve and what is their legal right. If we know that there is somebody who can have an easier more supported, more peaceful death, we understand how incredibly valuable that is, not just for the patient but for the family. For the loved ones that are going to go on. So let's get into some of the meat of this. I'm going to ask you; we can kind of trade-off. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: I'll ask you a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: You ask me a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. If you don't know the answer, I'd be very surprised. In general who requests General Aid and Dying? Elizabeth: A lot of the calls we get are from people who qualify. So I don't know if you wanna go over the qualifications... Dr. Bob: We will. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: That's the next question. Who is eligible. Elizabeth: Sorry. A lot of the people who call are individuals who are looking to see if they qualify and want to know what the process is. There are people who are family members of ill and struggling individuals, who wanna support them in getting the resources they might need. There are some people who just want the information. There are some people who desperately need immediate support and attention. Dr. Bob: Do you find, cause you get a lot of these calls initially, do you find that it's more often the patient looking for the information or is it usually a family member? Elizabeth: It's 50/50. Dr. Bob: Oh 50/50. Elizabeth: I think it depends a lot on where the patient is in the process and how supportive the family members are. Some people have extremely supportive family members who are willing to make all the phone calls and find all the resources and put in all the legwork. Some people don't, and they end up on their own trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. There are some people who are too sick to put in the energy to make 15 phone calls and talk to 15 different doctor's offices to find out what the process is. A lot of people start looking for information and hit wall, after wall, after wall. They don't even get to have a conversation about what this could look like, much less find someone who is willing to support them in it. Dr. Bob: Great, thank you. So who is eligible? Who does this law apply to? That's pretty straightforward, at least in appearance. An adult 18 or older. A resident of California. Who is competent to make decisions. Has a terminal illness. Is able to request, from an attending physician, the medication that if taken, will end their life. Pretty much 100% of the time. The individual has to make two requests, face to face with the attending physician and those requests need to be at least 15 days apart. If somebody makes an initial request to meet and I determine that they are a resident of California, they are an adult, they are competent, and they have a medical condition that is deemed terminal (I'll talk more about what that means) if I see them on the 1st, the 2nd request can happen on the 16th. It can't happen any sooner. The law requires a 15 day waiting period. That can be a challenge for some people, and we will talk a bit about that as well. In addition to the two requests of the attending physician, the person needs to have a consulting physician who concurs that they have a terminal illness and that they are competent to make decisions and the consulting physician meets with them, makes a determination and signs a form. The patient also signs a written request form that is essentially a written version of the verbal request and they sign that and have two people witness it. That's the process. Once that's completed, the attending physician can submit a prescription if the patient requests it at that time to the pharmacy. Certain pharmacies are willing to provide these medications, and many aren't. But, the physician submits the prescription to the pharmacy, and when the patient wants to have the prescription filled, they request that the pharmacy fill it and the pharmacy will make arrangements to have it delivered to the patient. The prescription can stay at the pharmacy for a period of time without getting filled, or it can be filled and be brought to the patient, and at that point, the patient can choose to take it or not. The patient needs to be able to ingest it on their own. They have to be able to drink the medication, it's mixed into a liquid form. They need to be able to drink five to six ounces of liquid, and it can be through a glass or through a straw. If the patient can't swallow, but they have a tube-like either a gastric tube or a feeding tube as long as they can push the medication through the tube, then they are eligible. The law states that no one can forcibly make the patient take it. They have to be doing it on their own volition, willingly. Okay. So, that's pretty much the process. Is there anything that I left out? What is a terminal illness? That is a question that is often asked. For this purpose, a terminal illness is a condition that is likely or will likely end that person's life in six months if the condition runs its natural course. Most of the patients that we see requesting Medical Aid and Dying have cancer. They have cancer that is considered terminal. Meaning there is no cure any longer. It's either metastasized, or it involves structures that are so critical that will cure them. In most cases, there is no treatment that will allow them to live with a meaningful quality of life, past six months. Of course, it's difficult to say to the day, when somebody is going to die, but there has to be a reasonable expectation that condition can end their life within six months. We also see a number of people with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. That's a particularly sensitive scenario because those people lose their ability to function, they lose their motor function, and as it gets progressively, further along, they lose their ability to swallow. They can lose their ability to speak and breathe. The time frame of that condition can be highly variable. We see people with advanced heart disease, congestive heart failure, advanced lung disease other neurologic diseases. Elizabeth: The gamut. Dr. Bob: We see the gamut, but those are the majority. We've talked about who's requesting this for the most part, who's eligible? A patient who is competent has a terminal diagnosis and is an adult resident of California. We talked about the requirements, what's the process. Let's talk a little bit about the challenges that we've identified or that other people have identified. At the very beginning of this process, I became aware that the law was going to begin taking effect just a few months after I started my medical practice at Integrated MD Care and I figured great this is progressive. We are kind of like Oregon, we are going to have this option available, and I felt like it was the right thing. I've always felt like people should have more control and be able to be more self-determining. Especially at end of life. Who's life is it? Right? Who are we to tell somebody that they have to stay alive longer than they want to. That never made sense to me. I think if you're not in this world of caring for people at end of life or you haven't had an experience with your family. Most people figure when people are dying they get taken care of adequately. Hospice comes in, and they take care of things. IN some cases that's true. In many cases, it is the furthest thing from the truth. People struggle and suffer. Patients struggle and suffer, families suffer and if we have another option, if we have other options available wouldn't we be giving them credence? My answer is yes, we should. So when the law was coming into effect, I figured physicians would be willing to support patients because it's the right thing. I just assumed people would go to their doctors and say 'we now have this law, can you help me' and the doctors would say 'of course.' It didn't quite work out that way. Now I understand why I see it more clearly. People started calling me to ask for my support, and I started meeting with them and learning about what they were going through and learning about all of the struggles they've had through their illness and trying to get support with what is now their legal right and they were getting turned away by doctor, after doctor, after doctor. I learned what I needed to learn about the process and I started supporting a few patients here and there. As time went on, I saw A)what an incredibly beautiful, beautiful process it is. What an extraordinary peaceful end of life we could help people achieve and the impact that it has on the families was so incredibly profound that I know that this was something that I needed to continue supporting. With the hope that other physicians would come on board and there wouldn't be such a wasteland and so much struggle because I can only take care of some many people. Well, it's a year and a half later, and I do think things have- Elizabeth: Improved. Improved some. Some of the hospital systems in San Diego certainly, have developed policies and process to support patients through the Aid and Dying, sometimes it can still be laborious and cumbersome, and hiccups occur that create great challenges and struggles. But what we've developed is a process that is so streamlined. Like Elizabeth mentions, we've come across so many of these obstacles and these issues that couldn't have really been anticipated. That have to do with hospice agencies not wanting to be supportive. Of not being able o find a consulting physician for various reasons. Coroners and medical examiners not understanding anything about this process. So we've had to be educating them to make sure that the police don't show up at somebodies house in the middle of the night. It's become a real passion for both of us and our whole team. To be able to do this and to be able to do this really well, as well as it could possibly be done. More doctors are coming on board and being open to this. I'll tell yeah, I'm not so sure that's the right thing, and we have thoughts about that. I've been talking a lot, so I wanna sit back and let you talk, take a sip of my coffee and I wanna hear your thoughts on- Elizabeth: Other doctors. Dr. Bob: Other doctors and how they perceive this. Why we may not just want every doctor- Elizabeth: Doing it. Dr. Bob: Doing it. Elizabeth: I think it's really important that other doctors be open to it. Especially open to the conversations. I think one of the things that has been the most important for me is to help people start those conversations with their doctors, with their families, with other healthcare providers. A lot of the doctors are restricted by policies where they work or by moral objections or just by not really being familiar and being concerned that they might misstep. I think that having doctors come on board first in terms of conversations is fantastic. Then also learning the process is important. As simple as it is in the way that you described it it's more complex than that. There are a lot of small details, paperwork, and requirements. Things have to be done a certain way in order to be compliant with the law. There are aspects of supporting the family. This is a very unique experience. If you as a physician don't have time to have longer conversations with patients and families, if you don't have time to provide anticipatory support and relief for the grieving process or for the dying process, it can be a struggle for the patients and families to go through this even if they have the legal support that they need. I think that that's one of the things you were referring to in terms of why it's not necessarily good for everybody to come on board. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Because if they say that they will support a patient and be their attending physician through this process, they could start the process and then come across some of these hurdles that they don't know what to do with and it could completely derail the process. It's too critical when patients finally feel that they now have this option available to them, that they see the light at the end of the tunnel, every little misstep and every little delay, is- Elizabeth: Excruciating. Dr. Bob: Excruciating. We see that happening over and over again. So when people find us and we assure them, we will help you get through this without any more hiccups, without anything getting derailed, they are very cynical. We tell them- Elizabeth: They've been so many doctors, they've been to doctors who've said... Dr. Bob: They've been screwed, they've... Elizabeth: We will help you, and they haven't gotten the help that they need. Dr. Bob: There is nothing that's more painful for somebody, an individual or a family member who's finally come around to wanting to support mom or dad or husband or a wife or a child and then to have it be taken away from them or threatened. We make ourselves available. There are times when we say we are available for you anytime, day or night; you can contact us. They start calling us; I've gotten calls at 2 in the morning from somebody just to say I just wanted to make sure you were really there. That you really would respond. They can't wait to get to the endpoint. Not even because they are ready to take the medication but because they are ready to have the peace of mind and the security of knowing that they have an easy out, rather than have to struggle to the bitter end. Elizabeth: This is really about empowering the patient and the family. This is all about providing them with the opportunity to do what they want to do with their life. To live it the way they want to live it and to end it the way they want to end it. Not in a way that is incongruent with their moral, ethical, spiritual life choices. In a way that supports the way that they've lived, the principals they've lived by and the things that matter to them. I would also say that the difficulties that doctors have had and the struggles that we've had in working with other physicians it's not because they don't care about their patients. It's not because they don't want the best thing for them. Maybe they disagree with what the best thing is, or maybe they feel that they are not able to provide sufficient support. There are a lot of really good doctors who aren't able, for whatever reason, to do this. Dr. Bob: That's a great point. I think a part of it is that sometimes they work for organizations that won't allow them to, and that happens often. Then they don't understand the process; they are intimidated by it. They don't want to mess it up. And, they are so busy that they feel like it's going to require too much time out of their day. Elizabeth: Which it does. Dr. Bob: Which it can, and they don't have any way to bill for that. They feel like they are going to be doing everybody a disservice. But unfortunately, that often leads to the patients being in this state of limbo and not knowing where to turn. Elizabeth: Thinking that they maybe they have started in the process and Dr. Bob: Not, we have certainly seen that. Elizabeth: Discovering later that they haven't. Dr. Bob: So we are going to close it down here shortly. One of the things, and you spoke about empowerment, and how really important that is, both for the patients and for the families. One thing that I've recognized, so now I've assessed and supported well over a hundred patients through this process. I've been with many of these people when they've taken the medication and died. So, I've seen how beautiful and peaceful it is. It literally in most cases, a lot of times there's laughter and just a feeling of incredible love and connection that occurs with the patient and the family in the moments leading up to that. Even after they have ingest the medication we have people who are expressing such deep gratitude and love and even laughing during the time because they are getting freed. They are not afraid, they are almost rushing towards this because it's going to free them. Most of the time they fall asleep within a matter of minutes and die peacefully within 20 to 30 minutes. Sometimes sooner. Occasionally a bit longer. But, if anyone is wondering if there is struggle or pain or flopping around in the death throws. None of that. This is truly...this is how I want to go when it's my time. The one thing that seems very consistent with the patients that I've care for through this process is, they have a physical condition that is ravaging their bodies. Their bodies are decaying, they are declining, they are not functioning. Their bodies are no longer serving them. But their spirit, is still strong. They have to be competent to be able to make this decision. Most of the time they are so determined to be in control of what happens to them, their spirit has always been strong. They have lost control because their bodies no longer function and that is irreconcilable for them. They cannot reconcile this strong spirit in a body that is no longer serving them and that is only going to continue getting worse. That's the other important part of this. These are people who are dying, they are not taking this medication because they are tired of living. They are taking this medication because they are dying and they don't see any reason to allow their death to be more prolonged and more painful, than it needs to be. They are empowered, and we are empowering people to live fully until their last moments and to die peacefully. My last little note here is, why do we do this? Well, that's why we do this. Elizabeth: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Because people deserve the absolute best most peaceful, most loving, death. This is in many cases, the only way to achieve that. I think we are going kinda wrap it up. We obviously are passionate about this topic. We are passionate about wanting to share the realities of it. We don't want there to be confusion, misconceptions, misunderstandings. Aid and Dying is here; it's not going away. It's going to continue to expand throughout our country. We are going to get to a place where everybody has the right to determine when their life should end peacefully when they're dying. I'm very happy and proud to be on the forefront of this. I know it's controversial, I imagine there are people who think that I'm evil and I'm okay with that because I know. I see the gratitude that we get from so many patients and families. When we go out and speak to groups about this the vast majority of people are so supportive and Elizabeth: Sort of relieved, even the professionals are so relieved. We have a patient, we have been helping another doctor support that patient, and he's so relieved and so friendly and so grateful just to be able to provide the support that he wouldn't otherwise be able to provide. It's not just the patients; it's everybody we engage on this, it's really amazing. Dr. Bob: Thank you. It really is an honor to watch you engage with the patients and families and to be as supportive of what we're doing. It's remarkable. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: We will talk about some of the options that people have when they don't qualify for Aid and Dying because there are other options. We wanted to address some of those options as well but not on this live; we'll do that maybe next time. Thanks for tuning in, have an awesome day, and we will see you soon, take care. Photo Credit:  CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION/WIKIMEDIA COMMONS PUBLIC DOMAIN  

Elizabeth Tulasi, who brings 15 years of political and non-profit management experience to her Board role for California Women's List, a political action committee that supports Democratic women running for state office in California. She started her career as a Capitol Hill staffer in Washington DC. Upon returning to California, Elizabeth worked at a Food Bank, advocating to make healthy food more accessible and other programs that serve families living in poverty. Most recently she managed issue campaigns at California's largest business advocacy alliance as COO. More about California Women's List. Learn more about The Passionistas Project.   FULL TRANSCRIPT: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. Today we're talking with Elizabeth Tulasi who brings 15 years of political and nonprofit management experience to her board role for California Women's List a political action committee that supports democratic women running for state office in California. She started her career as a Capitol Hill staffer in Washington, DC. Upon returning to California, Elizabeth worked at a food bank advocating to make healthy food more accessible and other programs that serve families living in poverty. Most recently, she managed issue campaigns at California's largest business advocacy alliance as COO. So please welcome to the show Elizabeth Tulasi. Elizabeth Tulasi: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Passionistas: Thanks for being here. What are you most passionate about? Elizabeth: I'm most passionate about, I think finding the truth and everybody recognizing what is the truth and what is real. And I think that if people have information and people recognize what's going on, then we can all make better decisions. I think a lot of things in our economy and our society and our political processes are hidden and obfuscated often on purpose. So if those things come to light and people have that information, then we can all make better choices that I think are better for everyone better for our clinic. Passionistas: How does that relate to the activism that you do? Elizabeth: Well, I think a lot of people don't know what decisions are made at all various levels of government. I think a lot of people don't even know what the various levels of government are. The presidential campaigns take up a lot of space in people's minds and they are of course, very important, but the decisions that affect your and my everyday life are usually made much closer to home. And we also have more control over those things. So, you know, thinking about schools, if we want good schools in our communities, those decisions are made by local school boards. The funding that schools have are determined because of state and local taxes that are also determined by state and local representatives. If you have good parks in your neighborhood or in your state, those again are determined by local and state elected officials. So a lot of power resides much closer to wherever you live. And I really want people to know about that and to insert their voices into those conversations. You know, Nancy and I were talking just a minute ago about the passing of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and she has so many quotable nuggets of wisdom. But I think that I think a lot about is one where she said women belong in all places where decisions are being made and decisions are being made all around us. And we need to know what decisions those are, who's making them. And how do we be part of that? Let's go back. Passionistas: When did you get interested in politics and activism? Elizabeth: I remember as a kid, I was even in girl Scouts, which wasn't necessarily political, but it was public service. And a lot of the things that we were working on, it became a question of why is this problem? You know, like when we would go make sandwiches and give them out to homeless folks, living in our area as a kid, you're always asking why are there so many homeless people, why do we need to clean up the parks? You know, like all of the little service projects that we did, it was kind of, the question is always like, well, why is it this way? So I think that that really leads to understanding what factors govern our lives. And then in high school, I was in the, I think 10th grade or 11th grade when nine 11 happened. And so there was a lot of political choices that led to that and were coming out of that. And so I became more active at that point. And then I think also, you know, even things like LGBT rights, I mean, in high school, I was involved in drama in a theater. So I had a lot of gay friends. And at the time, I don't know that I knew that much about the politics of that, but, you know, you become kind of an activist in defending people's rights to just exist.   Passionistas: You actually worked in DC early in your career. So what did you do there? Elizabeth: I went to DC to do AmeriCorps. So AmeriCorps is like our domestic peace Corps program. So I gave a year to work for a foundation that promoted public service and volunteerism. So I did that for a year. And then I worked for a member of Congress who is actually from Los Angeles, Grace Napoitano. So I worked there as her scheduler. What did that entail? I definitely had a lot more power than I knew I had at that time. I did not capitalize on that as well as I should have a member of Congress is just constantly in demand by their constituents by special interest groups by lobbyists. They're always, time is just of the essence. And so my job was to manage her time and to assess all of those requests that were coming in all the time and assign them to other staff members or make the time on the congressman's calendar. There's just a lot of balancing of priorities. Passionistas: Did you like being in the DC system? Elizabeth: No, I did not like it there. I left after that second year. So a few reasons why I don't like D C one, weather it's terrible, there's like three nice weeks in the spring and three nice weeks in the fall. And then the rest of the time it's either like sweating, like anything you've ever experienced. You're trudging through sleet. And it's not like pretty glistening white snow and I'm from LA. So I, you know, you can't hang with that for a long.  Then two is the, I felt just professionally. The first question anybody asks you in any setting is who do you work for? And it's very much about assessing how valuable you are to them in that moment. And I just felt like people just talked about work all the time. And when I came back to California and I remember my lunch break at my, my first day at work and, you know, there's people in the kitchen, you know, microwaving their lunches or whatever. And people were talking about what they did on the weekends. People were talking about their, you know, how they went, kayaking. People talked about a meeting they were going to after work. I mean, I just realized like, Oh my God, you people talk about other things besides just what happens in this building. And I thought that was very impressive.   Passionistas: During your time in DC. was there something you learned there that you've sort of taken through your career? Elizabeth: I mean, it was also the very beginning of my career. So I think there's a lot that you just learn from being new in a professional workplace. One thing which may or may not be specific to politics, but is, you know, know your audience and understand what does this person, or what does this group want and how can I address that with whatever I have. And sometimes that doesn't necessarily mean giving them what they want, but it means like making them feel heard. And I think that that is applicable in a lot of different industries. I guess, making people feel heard without actually giving them anything or committing to anything is a skill that is useful. Passionistas: Did you come straight back to LA or did you go to San Francisco first? Elizabeth: I went to San Francisco after DC. I wasn't quite ready to move back home or move back to my home area. And I lived there for five years. What did you do there? I worked for a food bank there. So actually I lived in the East Bay. I lived in Oakland and Berkeley for some time, but I worked in San Francisco for the San Francisco Marin food bank. And I started out as an executive assistant, which was a good kind of transition from a scheduler type of role and also great for being able to see all the different parts of the organization and the business, how things run. And also at that organization, deep policy and advocacy stuff really happened with the CEO and in his office, out of his office directly. So I was useful in that space. Then I transitioned to become a major gifts officer, which is basically you talk to high net worth individuals and try to give them money for things that you're trying to do for the community. Passionistas: Was there a part of being of service in that job that you connected to? Elizabeth: I think what was really cool about that job is that I was basically Robin hooding, you know, like I was taking money from rich people and using it to buy food for poor people. And that, you know, just in a very simplistic way, it feels like a good use of time, energy. And we were really making a huge impact, even in a place as wealthy as San Francisco. One in four people are at risk of hunger and don't know where their food is. Next meal is going to come from. Most of those are children and the elderly, and that's true for a lot of places across the country. So we did, I think, really good work also on the policy front, there's a ton of policy that affects whether or not people have enough money for food and can afford to pay rent and pay for medical bills and pay for food. So I did some cool stuff there. I think that ultimately as a service organization, the amount of time that they could spend on advocacy is smaller than what I was interested. And so eventually I left because I wanted to get more into politics. Passionistas: So then you moved back to LA at that point, you worked for the Los Angeles County business Federation. Talk about that job and what you did there. Elizabeth: So the LA County business Federation is an Alliance of a bunch of different business groups. So if you think about every industry has an association, every ethnic or minority group basically has a chamber of commerce. Every city has a chamber of commerce. So you think about the national association of women business owners or the bicycle coalition or the Long Beach Chamber of Commerce or any of these kinds of groups that are operating in California. We kind of organized all of them together so that we could be advocating for economic policies. When, when we all agreed on them, we represented 400,000 business owners across California. And we're the largest association of associations basically in the country. Passionistas: While you were doing that, were you also volunteering at nonprofit org? Elizabeth: Yeah. I had all of these volunteer roles while I was working. So over the course of my time at that job, I also served on the board of the United left, the next fund. I also served on the local democratic club, our Stonewall young Democrats here in LA, and I'm started on the board of California women's list. Passionistas: Tell us about the California Women's List and what they do and what you do for them. Elizabeth: California Women's list is a political action committee. So we raise money for and support democratic women running for office here in California. And we're very focused on state level offices. So the state legislature, and also there's a lot of constitutional offices. So think about things like the treasurer, the controller, the secretary of state, the governor, those kinds of directly elected positions.  We are a fully volunteer run board and organization. So I'm the external relations chair. And I help to create partnerships with other organizations and to work on a lot of our kind of more public facing campaigns right now, for example, we are starting selling merchandise that sends electrical women. And so if you go to CaliforniaWomenPlus.org, you can shop our store and buy cool merch that is professionally designed by an awesome graphic designer that we have on our board. I mean, it's unique and very different from a lot of the other kind of political t-shirts that I've seen around there and hats and whatnot. So, you know, we had to get that store up and running. So that was a project I worked on. Passionistas: What is California Women's List most focused on as we get into crunch time leading up to the election? Elizabeth: We have endorsed 24 candidates for state office this cycle. So we are very focused on raising money for them and giving it to them right away so that they can spend that on mail on the technology that they need to, you know, transition and have transitioned from a lot of door knocking and in person events to now everything is digital. So those digital tools cost money, some cases, depending on their market, they might be doing radio or TV ads. So they need money for all of that kind of thing. Also in California, especially important for women running for office in California is now finally you can use campaign funds to pay for childcare. There are only 17 States that allow candidates to pay for childcare campaign funds and California just became one of those States last year. So if there are, you know, some, a lot of our candidates are moms and childcare is really important to make sure that more women who have kids are able to run for office and be successful. Passionistas: Tell us about The Grace Society and what that is. Elizabeth: Grace Society is the donor circle for California Women's List. So if you want to help elect more women in California, then you can be a member of our Grace Society. It's only $50 for a year. And so you can pay that all at once or you can do $5 a month or whatever you need to do, and it helps you be a part of the fabric of our organization and a more consistent way. We have a little lapel pin that we send. That's nice. You get early access to our merch when we launch new products and also to our events that we have, you get early access and discounted tickets and all that sort of thing. So it's just a way for folks who want to support our work to help us sustain this effort, because it is a lot of fundraising around campaign cycles, but the work is ongoing and particularly for a lot of local and state races, those are not always happening at the same time as kind of these more well known races like the presidential. So that organizing work is happening all year. Passionistas: Why is it so important to have more women in politics? Elizabeth: When we see more women in elected bodies, those elected bodies have more transparency and they aren't, they tend to be more effective. So it's really important that everybody is represented at the level that they are in the society. You know, so not just women, but also people with disabilities, people who are immigrants, people with different kinds of work experience, people of different ethnic and language backgrounds. All of these folks are part of our society, but they are not all represented commensurate to their numbers and society. So that is a symptom of a problem. You know, if all things were equal, then everybody would just be part of the process. But because they're not in California, only 33% of our legislature is women. And that's basically an all-time high in the early two thousands, California ranked sixth in the nation for the percentage of women in the legislature. But by 2013, we fell to the 32nd place. And that's not because other States made a ton of progress. It's because the number of women in California state legislature went down. So it's really important that we have equal representation. And it's important that we are all fighting for it all the time because the number went down because we took our eye off. The ball progress is not linear. You know, I think we see that, especially that has become very clear as people over the last four years, we can't just count on it happening.  Passionistas: Why don't more women run for office? Elizabeth: Women do win their races basically as often as men do, it's just that they don't self-select and run that much. Women have to be asked to run for office multiple times before they start. So I really want women to know that you have just as good of an opportunity to run. And I also want women and men to know, and everybody to know that a big challenge that women candidates face is raising money. And that is because women can also raise as much as men do. We just tend to do it in smaller chunks. So men generally have access to wealthier donors and business circles and things like that. And so they are often able to raise more money faster. Whereas women have to spend longer cultivating more donors who are giving at smaller or lower amounts. And so I say that because I want everybody who's listening to, this can be a donor, not everyone's going to run for office and that's fine, but everybody can be a donor. Everybody can be a volunteer. And so really think about how you can give as much as possible, how you can encourage other people to give to political candidates. Women give a ton to charity, but we do not give as much to political campaigns and investing in a political campaign is investing in the future that you want to see your list. Passionistas: You're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Elizabeth Tulasi. Visit californiawomenslist.org to find out more about the organization. And join The Grace Society to receive an exclusive annual pin, a members only quarterly newsletter discount to tickets, to CWL programs and access to special members only events. Now here's more of our interview with Elizabeth. If there was a woman that wanted to get into the political arena, what would you want her to know? Elizabeth: I want women who are interested in politics to know that there are organizations out there to help support you to get you involved. So you don't have to feel intimidated. I think so many women feel like they don't know enough. And frankly, I wish more men recognize that they don't know enough because they don't know more than we do. They just don't care that they don't know more than we do now. And so I wish women would recognize that just because you don't know everything doesn't mean that you cannot be an effective leader in your community. It doesn't mean that you don't know good solutions. There are organizations out there of other women who can help support you as you learn more and figure out how to make change in your community. Passionistas: Why is it so important for women to get involved in all levels of government? Elizabeth: It's important to have women in all elected offices, but a thing that I want people to know about, you know, state and local is that those are the pipelines for higher office. So you look at somebody like Kamala Harris who ran for president. She's now the vice presidential nominee, but right now she's a Senator or US Senator. Prior to that, she was serving at the state level. She was California's Attorney General. And before that she was serving at, in her city. And a lot of the women that we heard of that were vice presidential contenders worked at various levels of government before they get up to that level. So it was great because of this democratic primary. There were a bunch of women who were running and had very viable campaigns, but obviously in the past, there was always hope putting all of our hopes and dreams on one woman. And that's because the pipeline to get to that level was so sweet. So if we have more women serving at various levels, then we have more opportunity for them to go higher. There are great women serving in state legislatures all across the country. So a couple of that, I just wanted to shout out Sarah Innamorato is elected in Pennsylvania. She's been serving since 2018 and she's from the Pittsburgh area. She's 34. And she beat an incumbent in a landslide by fighting for progressive values in a state that is very ideologically diverse. So she started her own marketing firm previously. And then she decided to run for office in Texas. There's a woman named Gina Calanni. She was a paralegal and a mom of three boys, and she ran. She's the first woman to represent her area in the state, Texas state legislature. She beat an incumbent Republican, and she's already passed 11 bills. And she's only been in the state legislature for a year. She's focused on the minutia of processes that slow things down like forensic testing or allowing school funding to go towards these big separate packages for fired administrators. So these are kind of unsexy details that really matter to how well your government works in Virginia. There was a woman named Masha Rex Baird, and she was the youngest woman ever elected to the Virginia House of delegates. When she won in 2015, she was 28 years old at the time. She's so active in her community. When you read her bio she's on so many different, you know, volunteering and serving on so many different boards and commissions, and she's focused on her service on economic development and education so that her community has good jobs in it. And then the folks in the community have the skills to be able to get into those jobs. And just this week, she passed a bill banning, no knock warrants in Virginia, which is the kind of warrant that police officers used when they murdered Brianna Taylor. So all of these women in different parts of the country are breaking barriers in their own ways and making really important change. You can see how important that is to their state. And so I share all of these examples because if you started looking at some of the women that are serving in your community in leadership roles, you will see that they're women just like you and your experience is important to bring to bear in California. Somebody who's now become a national figure is Katie Porter and in her first term in Congress. And she's the only single mom serving in Congress right now. And so she brings a lived experience that is really important because obviously there's so many single moms across America and the people who are making the rules and govern their lives, have no idea what they're doing. And so whatever you have, if you know anybody else who has that same kind of experience, then that voice deserves to be heard. Passionistas: Why are state and local governments so important? Elizabeth: That is keeping you up at night these days, or that's, you know, you're really stressed out about and state and local government have a huge impact on that. So COVID obviously is really on the top of everyone's mind. And the hospital capacity in your area is a function of probably your County government or, you know, what the kinds of facilities and specialties that they have in your area are also determined by state policy. Every community has a public health official and how much the politicians listen to that public health official. That's all determined. I mean, that's all happening at the local level. I think another thing people are really stressed out about right now is money. So how much you earn and how much it costs to live, where you live, that's all determined by local factors. A lot of money stuff is happening in your area.   And it's very specific to where you live national policies affect these things, of course, but the bulk of the economic policies that affect your day to day life are happening in your city or in your County or your state. I think a lot of folks right now also are paying more attention to family policies and also to unemployment. And that is handled at the state level. And so if have not yet received your unemployment check or you had the system was down when you tried to apply, that's because of stuff that's happening at the state level education and childcare education is handled by your local school board. How much money they have is determined by state and local taxes. Policing and prisons are really top of mind for folks right now, your city council and your mayor determine how much money the police are going to get in your city.   If you are in a place where you, you don't have municipal police, you might have a County sheriff. The sheriff is usually in elected position all across the country. So that's a directly elected person who's handling those policies and jails. I just learned in California that there's a bill going through the state legislature right now that is focused on how we in California treat people who are in jail and prison who are pregnant and whether or not they can be handcuffed to their hospital bed during childbirth, whether or not they get preference for the bottom bunk in, in their jail, you know, or have to climb up to the top bunk, whether they can be put in solitary confinement while you're pregnant. So there's a lot of policies that have to do with how we treat prisoners in our States that really matter and voting is another big one.   There's a lot of concern with the integrity of our various voting systems. And every one of those voting systems is controlled by your state government and your local elections. Or so if you're concerned about who has access to voting or who doesn't have access to voting, or how easy or hard it is to vote in your area that is completely determined by your state government, why is voting important to you? Really broadly voting is important to me because so many people have died for this, right, and have died, or, you know, really put their wives at risk for this democracy. And this democracy only works if people participate in it. So that is very motivating to me. And then I think specifically right now, why it's important that everybody vote is because I think we think of ourselves as very polarized right now as a country.   And that is certainly true, but there are so many more people that are not participating in that at all, that I think their voices don't matter, but they do. We often hear people saying that it doesn't matter. Who's elected all the politicians are the same. And I think we can see now that that is not true, that people who are elected have power over our lives. And we need to make sure that those people have values and lived experiences that are similar to ours. And I think that government is created to be hard for people to get engaged. A lot of our systems right now are, are designed that way. And similar forces want us to believe that our votes don't matter, that our voices don't matter. And that again, is to achieve certain goals that I don't agree with. And I don't want, I think we've also seen how much, particularly for women, the power and the status that we have as women now that certainly my mother's generation didn't have. My grandmother's generation did not have. That was hard fought recently won and backsliding. As we speak, women are still mostly responsible for what happens at home. So when we are all home all the time, now that means we're responsible for everything all the time. And a lot of women who are also trying to work, but then they're not able to spend as much time at work or working because of all of this kind of unpaid domestic labor that we're involved in. And it's going to have long-term effects on women's economic mobility. And then I think there's also, you think about maternal mortality, maternal mortality is going up in America. We're one of the only countries where maternal mortality is increasing and it's particularly a problem with black and indigenous and women of color. If our government is worth anything, it should be that it doesn't let women die while they're giving birth. We see like the number of elected women is going up right now, partly because of the rates that women feel. So we're taking to running and supporting each other. But again, that is not guaranteed, that kind of progress. And we need women in all rooms where decisions are being made. So in state legislatures at your city hall, in board rooms and CEO's offices in the white house, we need women's voices and all of these places. And that again is not guaranteed. And when people say things like make America great, again, this kind of backsliding is exactly what that means to them. And that is very motivating to me to not let that happen. Passionistas: How can the average person have an impact on the upcoming election? Elizabeth: All of us have spheres of influence and all of us have people that listen to us and care about what we're saying. A lot of people feel like helpless right now, or they don't know where to start. And like I said, it is confusing on purpose, but you can vote and you can get three other people to vote. You can check your voter registration today. You can encourage three other people to check their voter registration. You can call your friends. Everybody who is getting a Christmas card from me is also getting a phone call from me, asking them, what is your voting plan? Because asking somebody, what is your plan? And having them just verbalize that to you is actually a really proven, effective way to get people to actually vote. And so in that scenario, you're not even telling them like, Hey, you should vote for this person that I care about. Cause sometimes those are awkward conversations or, you know, whatever, even though that's what's necessary right now is have those conversations with people in your life. But at the minimum, what you can do is just ask people to vote and encourage them and make sure that they have the information. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Elizabeth Tulasi, visit californiawomenslist.org to find out more about the organization. And join The Grace Society to receive an exclusive annual pin, a members only quarterly newsletter, discounted tickets to CWL programs and access to special members only events. Please visit thepassionistasproject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women-owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list, to get 10% off your first purchase. And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast. So you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.  

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