Podcast appearances and mentions of joe keenan

País Reino Unido Dirección David Bowers, Sam Fell Guion Dick Clement, Ian La Frenais, Christopher Lloyd, Joe Keenan, ver 5 más Música Harry Gregson-Williams Sinopsis Roddy es un hámster de la alta sociedad que vive como un rey en un apartamento de Kensington. Pero cuando una vulgar rata de alcantarilla llamada Sid aparece por la pila de la cocina y decide quedarse, a Roddy no le queda más remedio que deshacerse del intruso atrayéndole hacia el “remolino”. Puede que Sid sea vulgar e ignorante, pero no es tonto, y Roddy acaba desapareciendo por el inodoro hacia el mundo subterráneo de Ratónpolis. Allí conoce a la trabajadora y emprendedora Rita, que sobrevive en las alcantarillas en su fiel barco, el “Jammy Dodger”. Roddy sólo tiene una idea, subir, pero antes tendrá que compensar a Rita por los problemas que le ha causado. Y hablando de problemas, el malvado Toad (Sapo), que odia a todos los roedores, quiere congelarlos... literalmente.

Flushed Away is a 2006 computer-animated adventure comedy film directed by Sam Fell and David Bowers, produced by Cecil Kramer, David Sproxton, and Peter Lord, and written by Dick Clement, Ian La Frenais, Chris Lloyd, Joe Keenan and Will Davies. It was the third and final DreamWorks Animation film co-produced with Aardman Features following Chicken Run (2000) and Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit (2005), and was the first Aardman project mostly made in CGI animation as opposed to starting with their usual stop-motion. The film stars the voices of Hugh Jackman, Kate Winslet, Ian McKellen, Shane Richie, Bill Nighy, Andy Serkis and Jean Reno. In the film, a pampered pet rat named Roddy St. James (Jackman) is flushed down the toilet in his Kensington apartment by a sewer rat named Sid (Richie), and befriends a scavenger named Rita Malone (Winslet) in order to get back home while evading a sinister toad (McKellen) and his hench-rats (Nighy and Serkis). -- Audiomorphs is an Animorphs podcast which is actually not so much a podcast as a bootleg Animorphs audiobook. Releases every Friday. Visit https://www.theapodcalypse.com/ Twitter: @audiomorphs

In March 1984 I was shot as I and four friends drove from Belfast Court. We were driving up May St. at the back of the City Hall when our car was fired on from a passing vehicle. Four of us – myself, Sean Keenan, Joe Keenan, and Kevin Rooney - were hit. Bob Murray escaped injury. I was wounded in the neck, shoulder and upper body. We were blessed by incompetent assassins, UDA members and surrogates of the British system. -- May marked the 75th anniversary of the Nakba or Catastrophe – the forcible expulsion of three quarters of a million Palestinians from their homes by Israeli forces in 1948. On 15 May 1948 the Israeli state was formally recognised by the United Nations. The expulsion of Palestinians which had been going on was stepped up. 750,000 Palestinian people were dispossessed and forced to become refugees in their own land. Israel ethnically cleansed over 500 villages and killed 15,000 Palestinians.

In February's episode you'll hear from Jonathan Grix, Professor of Sport Policy, as he discusses the legacy of the FIFA World Cup in Qatar. Dr Katy Jones, Research Fellow from the University's Decent Work and Productivity Research Centre, will be talking about the first major independent study into the universal credit system and Dr Joe Keenan, Senior Lecturer in Psychology, will be sharing some insight into why, come February, many of us have abandoned our new year's resolutions and offers some tips on how we can get back on track.  

It started with an email in 2017 and ends with a March Madness-style ranking of minor Frasier characters! TV writer and “Baby Geniuses” host Emily Heller joins Anita for an epic character showdown. From Maris vs. Bebe Glazer to Baby the cockatoo vs. “Wine Club,” the competition is fierce AND controversial. Following Emily's March Madness rules, a minor character must have appeared in at least 2 episodes and “wine club” counts as a character. She also spills the deets on lunch with Peri Gilpin, buying a chair formerly owned by David Hyde Pierce, Joe Keenan's advice on writing farce, and “Frasier sleepers.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“PIlot” (1993) This unsold pilot, featuring JoBeth Williams as an aging actress in 1930s Hollywood, represents writer Joe Keenan's attempt at selling NBC a TV series with a gay sensibility back in 1993. And while Gloria Vane never made it to air, its legacy lives on in Frasier, as Keenan joined the Frasier writers' room and ended up penning some of the series queerest and most farcical episodes. Even without that Frasier connection, however, Gloria Vane would still merit its own very special episode, because it's very funny and very queer. Watch the Gloria Vane pilot on YouTube. Watch Dear Diary, the unsold Bebe Neuwirth pilot that won an Oscar. Buy the first issue of Drew and Glen's new comic anthology, Beyond Sunset. Go shop at our TeePublic store! Follow: GEE on Facebook • GEE's Facebook Group • GEE on Twitter • GEE on Instagram • Drew on Twitter • Glen on Twitter Listen: iTunes • Spotify • Stitcher • Google Play • Google Podcasts • Himalaya • TuneIn And yes, we do have an official website! We even have episode transcripts courtesy of Sarah Neal. Our logo was designed by Rob Wilson. This episode's art was designed by Ian O'Phelan. This is a TableCakes podcast.

“Out With Dad” (February 10, 2000) It's been far too long since we did a Frasier episode, and so we're returning with a good one, in which Martin (John Mahoney) plays gay and pretends that Niles (David Hyde Pierce) is his boyfriend. It's a great farce, and as special guest Anthony Oliveira points out, it's one of the best Joe Keenan-penned episodes of the show. Beyond Sunset is live! Buy issue one here! Listen to Anthony's Patreon podcast, The Devil's Party. Watch the pilot for Gloria Vane, a Joe Keenan script that didn't go to series but did result in him writing for Frasier and also in Gil Chesterton and Bebe Glazer becoming characters on the show. What the fuck is Einstein on the Beach? Previous Frasier episodes: Frasier's Boss Is Gay Frasier Has a Gay Dream Frasier Dates a Gay Guy Smart Mouth is back! Listen to it! Monday Afternoon Movie is also back! Listen to it! Also Singing Mountain is ending! Listen to it! Watch Drew's video compilation of every LGBT joke ever on the history of The Simpsons. Buy Glen's movie, Being Frank. Support us on Patreon! Go shop at our TeePublic store! Follow: GEE on Facebook • GEE's Facebook Group • GEE on Twitter • GEE on Instagram •  Drew on Twitter • Glen on Twitter Listen: iTunes • Spotify • Stitcher • Google Play • Google Podcasts • Himalaya • TuneIn And yes, we do have an official website! We even have episode transcripts courtesy of Sarah Neal. Our logo was designed by Rob Wilson. This episode's art was designed by Ian O'Phelan. This is a TableCakes podcast.

Keenan was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts into an Irish American Catholic family. He has a twin brother, John, and two other siblings Ronald and Geraldine. He grew up in the blue collar neighborhood of Cambridgeport. Keenan attended Boston College High School and Columbia College.In 1991 Cheers creators James Burrows and Glen and Les Charles, having read Keenan's novel Blue Heaven, invited Keenan to create a new sitcom for their production company. The resulting pilot, Gloria Vane, starring JoBeth Williams, was not picked up by a network, but it led to a writing post on Frasier. In 1992, his first play, The Times, a musical that charts the course of a seventeen-year marriage between Liz, an actress, and Ted, a writer, won the Richard Rodgers Award for Musical Theater, awarded by the American Academy of Arts and Letters. In 1993, the lyrics for The Times won the Edward Kleban Award.He joined the staff of the sitcom Frasier as an executive story editor in 1994 for the series' second year. His first produced script for the series, "The Matchmaker", received an Emmy Award nomination, a GLAAD Media Award, and the 1995 Writers Guild Award for Episodic Comedy. He won a writing Emmy Award in 1996 for being one of eight writers of the classic Season 3 episode, "Moon Dance", and also received Emmy Award nominations for "The Ski Lodge" episode in 1998 and, with Christopher Lloyd, "Something Borrowed, Someone Blue," in 2000, which won the 2001 WGA award for Episodic Comedy.During his six-season tenure on Frasier he rose through the ranks from executive story editor to co-producer, supervising producer, co-executive producer, and finally, executive producer. He was executive producer when the series ended in 2004. He also co-wrote the series finale, "Goodnight, Seattle." Keenan won five Emmy Awards during his tenure on the show. He was nominated for Outstanding Writing in a Comedy Series five times, and won once. He won the Outstanding Comedy Series award four times for his work as the show's producer. He also won two Writers Guild of America Awards for his work on the series.In 2006, Keenan joined Desperate Housewives as a writer and executive producer for the third season of the television show. Although his work received good critical response, and one of his episodes,"Bang", was named the best of the season by many critics, he left the series after one year.Keenan also created two short-lived comedy series with fellow Frasier producer and writer Christopher Lloyd: Bram and Alice in 2002 and Out of Practice in 2005. He also co-wrote the 1994 film Sleep with Me as well as the screenplay for the 2007 Annie Award-winning animated feature Flushed Away.Keenan is also a published author, and is commonly referred to as a "gay P.G. Wodehouse"As of 2007, he has written three novels:Blue Heaven (1988),Putting On the Ritz (1991), andMy Lucky Star (2006).Putting on the Ritz won the Lambda Literary Award for Humor in 1991, and My Lucky Star won the Lambda Literary Award for Humor in 2006. In October 2007, the novel also won the Thurber Prize for American Humor.Putting On The RitzJoe KeenanFollowing the hilarious debacle of Blue Heaven, librettist Philip Cavanaugh has again allowed himself to be drawn into a fiendish money-making plan by his friend and ex-lover Gilbert Selwyn.Gilbert has fallen in with Tommy Parker, a veritable Adonis and a magazine editor employed by media magnate Boyd Larkin. Philip's brief is to spy on Larkin's greatest adversary Peter Champion. To this end Philip enters the Champion entourage - a clan so poisonous they make the Borgias look Amish - with his songwriting partner Claire. Together they are to turn Champion's talentless wife Ilsa (a woman so rich she 'ovulates Fabergé eggs') into a chanteuse.As Philip and Gilbert out-spy each other in vying for Tommy's admiration, plot follows counter-plot in a novel whose comic complications, devastating repartee and cast of high-hat lowlifes is nothing short of dazzling and unforgettable.https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/1035136/putting-on-the-ritz/9781784757083.htmlT: https://twitter.com/MrJoeKeenan?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5EauthorLike to have a ASC cinematographer as a mentor?Have you thought of upgrading your cinematography game? Would you like to have an ASC Cinematographer mentor you for free? Join veteran cinematographer Suki Medencevic, A.S.C. (Disney, Pixar, FX Networks, Netflix, American Horror Story). He teaches you how to create beautiful images using three lighting techniques he has mastered on film sets over his 30+ years in the film industry. Each technique uses basic, low-cost lighting equipment so that anyone can achieve beautiful visuals no matter your projects's budget.Learn film lighting from an ASC cinematographer. If you want to take your cinematography to the next level, this free training will get you there. These videos are available for a limited time, so sign up for instant access. CLICK HERE TO REGISTERhttps://www.ifhacademy.com/a/28632/aLFBXkpNIf you liked this podcast, shoot me an e-mail at filmmakingconversations@mail.comAlso, you can check out my documentary The People of Brixton, on Kwelitv here: https://www.kweli.tv/programs/the-people-of-brixtonDamien Swaby Social Media Links:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/filmmaker_damien_swaby/Twitterhttps://twitter.com/DamienSwaby?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5EauthorWebsite http://filmmakingconversations.com/If you enjoy listening to Filmmaking Conversations with Damien Swaby, I would love a coffee. Podcasting is thirsty work https://ko-fi.com/damienswaby

Sky’s Your Honor sees Bryan Cranston play a judge who is forced into a criminal underworld. Ice cold naval period drama The Terror comes to BBC Two and rock star Ricky Wilson explores his arty side for CBBC. Plus former Frasier writer Joe Keenan stops by the pod to talk about the return of the 90s sitcom.

This week, Will and Kie discuss (and 'narrate') the email interview they conducted with one of Frasier's most beloved writers: Joe Keenan. Discussing his favourite episodes, actors, and behind the scenes trivia, this mini-episode pulls the curtain back on the show we love. 

Will and Kie discuss the seductions of one Tom Durant; the laughter of Martin; and Frasier's fraternity days. NEXT WEEK we'll be discussing our email interview with the writer Joe Keenan, who penned this VERY episode! Make sure you check it out.

Apple introduces its next gen system Acclaim powers up its team and Nintendo wants a piece of the Harry Potter pie These stories and many more on this month's episode of the Video Game Newsroom Time Machine This month we will look back at the biggest stories in and around the video game industry in May of 1980, 1990, 2000. As always, we'll mostly be using magazine cover dates, and those are of course always a bit behind the actual events.. Send comments on twitter @videogamenewsr2 Or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/vgnrtm Or videogamenewsroomtimemachine@gmail.com And if you like what we are doing here at the podcast, don't forget to like us on your podcasting app of choice, YouTube, and/or support us on patreon! https://www.patreon.com/user?u=7594060 1980: Coleco reports record first quarter profits Toy & Hobby World, May 1980 Mattel reports a 22% increase in net sales Playthings, May 1980 French planning to launch terminals https://www.nytimes.com/1980/05/26/archives/french-back-phone-computers-new-terminals-scheduled-for-popular-use.html?searchResultPosition=11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOhK9bgQo8g My apologies, I said it was the Nostalgia Nerd who did this history of the Minitel but it was RetroManCave. Pizza Time Theatre sues Topeka Inn Management Inc Replay May 1980, pg. 10 https://books.google.de/books?id=7-WcKK01H1cC&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=pizza+time+theatre+sues+topeka+inn&source=bl&ots=4IS3fHWgGj&sig=ACfU3U3PK974svmkbhZnXY8q-IHsxPu5uA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihg4zV-MfoAhXQ5KQKHfvxDNQQ6AEwAHoECAwQLw#v=onepage&q=pizza%20time%20theatre%20sues%20topeka%20inn&f=false Midway warns against copying Galaxian Replay May 1980, pg. 35 http://patentarcade.com/2015/12/1982-case-midway-mfg-co-v-bandai.html https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4669&context=penn_law_review Mego's Time Out series to be shown at CES Toy & Hobby World, May 1980 http://www.intheattic.co.uk/time-out.htm https://patents.google.com/patent/US4687200 Apple debuts Apple III https://www.nytimes.com/1980/05/08/archives/new-breed-emerges-in-home-computers-who-makes-them-a-new-breed-of.html?searchResultPosition=4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_III Avalon Hill enters the computer game market Toy & Hobby World, May 1980 https://www.mobygames.com/company/microcomputer-games-inc Katie goes into the computer https://archive.org/details/Katie_and_the_Computer_1979_Creative_Computing_Press/page/n43/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/CreativeComputingbetterScan198005/page/n46/mode/1up 1990: Core Design becomes its own publisher https://archive.org/details/theone-magazine-20/page/n9/mode/1up https://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/core-design-ltd/offset,50/so,1d/list-games/ https://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,19669/ Don Bluth to produce its own games https://archive.org/details/theone-magazine-20/page/n7/mode/1up https://www.mobygames.com/company/sullivan-bluth-interactive-media-inc https://www.facebook.com/donbluthfilms/photos/a.538790976189206/1160072624061035/?type=3&theater http://www.dragons-lair-project.com/games/related/prototype/cinematronics.asp Data East makes Joe Keenan their new president Play Meter May 1990, pg. 3 Acclaim triples previous years revenue Plaything May 1990, pg. 13 Acclaim cuts deal with Williams Play Meter May 1990, pg. 3 https://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/08/business/company-news-acclaim-entertainment-deal-for-comics-publisher-near.html Acclaim builds a power team https://archive.org/details/Video_Games_Computer_Entertainment_Issue_16_May_1990 pg. 18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDbD0216NaU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_Team_(TV_series) F-15 Strike Eagle is heading to arcades https://archive.org/details/computer-video-games-magazine-102/page/n91/mode/2up https://www.mobygames.com/game/arcade/f-15-strike-eagle_ https://videogamenewsroomtimemachine.libsyn.com/wild-bill-stealey-interview https://www.microprose.com/news/ Arcade vs. Home: The debate heats up Play Meter May 1990, pg. 34 https://www.computerspielemuseum.de/ TG16 gets a price cut https://archive.org/details/Video_Games_Computer_Entertainment_Issue_16_May_1990 pg. 22 PC Engine is finally coming to the UK https://archive.org/details/ACEIssue32May90/page/n6/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TurboGrafx-16 https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/george-soros-bank-of-england.asp Atari's Panther is waiting in the wings https://archive.org/details/ACEIssue32May90/page/n93/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Panther#cite_note-theone-2 Sega lines up computer games for the Genesis https://archive.org/details/Video_Games_Computer_Entertainment_Issue_16_May_1990 pg. 22 https://videogamenewsroomtimemachine.libsyn.com/michael-katz-interview-part-2 Electronic Arts becomes an NES licensee https://archive.org/details/Computer_Gaming_World_Issue_71/page/n49/mode/1up https://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/nes/electronic-arts-inc/ https://www.mobygames.com/game/nes/caveman-ugh-lympics Mindscape becomes first third party publisher of NES titles in Europe https://archive.org/details/computer-video-games-magazine-102/page/n9/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindscape_(company) Sierra buys Dynamix https://archive.org/details/Computer_Gaming_World_Issue_71/page/n49/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamix Ultima VI will not be coming to the Apple II https://archive.org/details/Computer_Gaming_World_Issue_71/page/n51/mode/1up https://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/ultima-vii-the-black-gate https://www.mobygames.com/game/ultima-vi-the-false-prophet C-Cube is making digital video affordable Replay May 1990, pg. 176 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Cube https://books.google.de/books?id=117mBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=%22CL4000%22+MPEG+II+encoder&source=bl&ots=HdCCZU_Edl&sig=ACfU3U3W3W8ySDjwJy_a1NT4YswCZi5b6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiY49ufze3oAhUE3KQKHVN8CfUQ6AEwBnoECAsQPA#v=onepage&q=%22CL4000%22%20MPEG%20II%20encoder&f=false Titus has won the right to make a Dick Tracy game... and we've all lost. https://archive.org/details/CommodoreUserIssue801990May/page/n7/mode/1up https://www.mobygames.com/game-group/dick-tracy-licensees 2000: Dreamcast peripherals proliferate https://archive.org/stream/ElectronicGamingMonthly_201902/Electronic%20Gaming%20Monthly%20Issue%20130%20%28May%202000%29#page/n34/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreameye https://web.archive.org/web/20070311083135/http://uk.dreamcast.ign.com/articles/076/076137p1.html https://archive.org/stream/ElectronicGamingMonthly_201902/Electronic%20Gaming%20Monthly%20Issue%20130%20%28May%202000%29#page/n43/mode/1up https://segaretro.org/Swatch_Access_for_Dreamcast Sega forecasts a loss of over $400 million https://www.retromags.com/files/file/3957-gamepro-issue-140-may-2000/ pg. 34 https://web.archive.org/web/20070925210504/http://www.segasammy.co.jp/english/ir/pdf/ir/kako/sega_AR_all_2000.pdf pg. 10 Sega.com is gonna give you a Dreamcast for free! https://archive.org/details/NextGen65May2000/page/n25/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SegaNet https://www.gamespot.com/articles/free-dreamcast-for-segas-new-isp/1100-2542096/ Indrema has a dream... https://archive.org/details/PC-Player-German-Magazine-2000-05/page/n18/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indrema https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gildred Nintendo vies for Harry Potter rights https://www.unseen64.net/2015/02/09/nintendo-harry-potter-games-pitch/ https://archive.org/stream/ElectronicGamingMonthly_201902/Electronic%20Gaming%20Monthly%20Issue%20130%20%28May%202000%29#page/n43/mode/1up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AXq2E_X67g Daikatana releases! https://archive.org/details/NextGen65May2000/page/n22/mode/1up https://www.mobygames.com/game/john-romeros-daikatana/release-info The Sims have arrived https://archive.org/details/Computer_Gaming_World_Issue_190/page/n65/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sims Triforge takes to the web https://archive.org/details/NextGen65May2000/page/n18/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArenaNet Fiendish games revives the budget title https://archive.org/details/NextGen65May2000/page/n22/mode/1up https://www.mobygames.com/company/criterion-software-ltd https://www.mobygames.com/company/fiendish-games-ltd AMD launches the first 1 GHz chip https://archive.org/details/NextGen65May2000/page/n21/mode/1up https://www.zdnet.com/article/its-official-amd-hits-1000mhz-first-5000096067/ Napster gets competition https://archive.org/details/PC-Player-German-Magazine-2000-05/page/n18/mode/1up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnutella Babylon 5 finally dead https://archive.org/details/PC_Zone_Issue_089_2000-05_Dennis_Publishing_GB/page/n30/mode/1up Recommended Links: Gaming Alexandria: https://www.gamingalexandria.com/wp/ They Create Worlds: https://tcwpodcast.podbean.com/ Digital Antiquarian: https://www.filfre.net/ The Arcade Blogger: https://arcadeblogger.com/ The History of How We Play: https://thehistoryofhowweplay.wordpress.com/ Retro Asylum: http://retroasylum.com/category/all-posts/ Retro Game Squad: http://retrogamesquad.libsyn.com/ Sound Effects by Ethan of History of How We Play.

Support us and More Banana Podcasts! On this episode of I’m Listening : A Frasier Podcast with Anita Flores… Writer/executive producer of Frasier Joe Keenan graces the podcast with his presence! He and Anita discuss his favorite episode, his rise to executive producer, the Frasiermusical that never was, and a whole lot more. Follow host Anita @anitajewtina

Joe Keenan shows how to make pretending to be gay actually funny and not offensive. Learn about our school lunch habits and Diana’s intense snack …

TCW Podcast Episode 045 - Atari, Ventures and Acquisitions   In our second of four episodes detailing the rise and fall of the core Atari company we go over the rapid expansion of the company, and its ever increasing need for capital.  Atari had to court venture capital, and got the patronage of Don Valentine.  Later on to secure the funding needed for the VCS launch they had to be acquired by a larger company; that company was Warner Communications.  This acquisition as we start to explore was a blessing and a curse.  It ultimately led to the ouster of Nolen Bushnell, and Joe Keenan from Atari.  Now it would start a new era under the leadership of Ray Kassar.   Atari Arcade Tank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OsBUzYBJgU   Atari Home Pong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqBlrULrbsg   Atari VCS Hardware Tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7n5o5Wq3q4   New episodes on the 1st and 15th of every month!   TCW Email: tcwpodcast@gmail.com  Twitter: @tcwpodcast Alex's Blog: http://videogamehistorian.wordpress.com   Intro Music: Josh Woodward - Airplane Mode -  Music - "Airplane Mode" by Josh Woodward. Free download:http://joshwoodward.com/song/AirplaneMode  Outro Music: RolemMusic - Bacterial Love - http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Rolemusic/Pop_Singles_Compilation_2014/01_rolemusic_-_bacterial_love  Copyright: Attribution: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

David Litt is the Creator and Showrunner of the hit TV Series King of Queens. He's written on shows like Aaahh!!! Real Monsters, Out of Practice, Big Bang Theory, and more.Show NotesDavid Litt on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0514439/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptDavid Litt:The lesson I'd like to impart if there is one. It really is fun to be a wise ass and funny and make everybody laugh. But you gotta bring something to the table or you're just gonna get fired. Yeah. Yeah. You've great to be funny and crazy and do bits and hopefully bring up the level of people's spirits in the room because it can get Yeah. It get arduous. Yeah. Yeah. But if that's all you do and you're not contributing, you're gonna be extraction and you're gonna get, so that, that's something that gets earned over time.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam. Hey everybody, it's Michael Jam and welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I have a very, very special guest today. This is my old friend David Lit, who is the creator of perhaps one of the last giant hit multi-camera sitcoms. King of Queens. King of Queens. That's, there really haven't been too many multi-camera hits. There's been a couple, but not many. And so here he is, DavidDavid Litt:And not many that have run 25 years continuously.Michael Jamin:You mean still in syndication? You mean still running somewhere? StillDavid Litt:Never been off the air since 98.Michael Jamin:Wow. Well we're gonna get to all that. I want hear. Let me just give you a little bit of roll up. So, cuz I want people gonna wanna know what else you had done. So you actually wrote on Real Monsters, which is My wife was a voice on that show. I think we talked about that. She was DizzleDavid Litt:Dizzle, Yeah. Now that character may have left. I left to do a sketch show.Michael Jamin:What showDavid Litt:Was that? After? About six months. So I was there, but was I o uh and Crumb.Michael Jamin:Crumb. Interesting now. Okay.David Litt:Great place to work, by the way, for anybody who has the opportunity.Michael Jamin:What in KidsDavid Litt:Classy.Michael Jamin:What's that? Where you cut out?David Litt:I dunno, Classy Cupo. Oh yeah. A great place toMichael Jamin:Work. But they, Are they still making stuff though?David Litt:I don't know. They used to rug wraps. I don't know if they still do, but they're unbelievably opposite and really great to creatives. AndMichael Jamin:So, in other words, if we can build a timeDavid Litt:Machine, My first,Michael Jamin:So your advice,David Litt:My first job I got was on a Real Monsters and the earthquake hit the first day I started. Right. The North Northridge quite there. So to their credit, they paid everybody, even though they were closed for a couple of weeks. They paid everybody.Michael Jamin:Interesting. They were in the studio too. How well did you get that job? Cause okay, let's start from the beginning. You're from Queens. You live that life of King, right? And so we'll get there, but how did you get your first job On writing?David Litt:Yeah. I don't like to brag by telling people I'm from Queens, but Yep. You can't hide. I amMichael Jamin:.David Litt:. Not obvious.How did I get that job? Here's how I fast forwarding a little bit. I moved from New York to LA the first week or two I was there. I made a commitment. I was gonna go to every party I got invited to. Cause I'm not a party guy. I don't like going to these, but I felt like I had to make friends. I needed to meet people. So somebody, a friend of a friend said, Hey, come to this party out in the Palisades. I said, Okay. I meet this kind of diminutive little woman. Little girl. Very sweet. We chatted for an hour and I go home and I get a call the following day from her and my ego. I'm thinking, Oh ha, she's totally into me,Michael Jamin:.David Litt:But she wasn't, as it turned out, she wasn't into me at all. But she had a job for me and wanted to know if I was interested in it or not. And of course, little did she know I was living on my credit cards. I was literally, I had four credit cards maxed. And I was taking cash off the fifth to pay the four. DidMichael Jamin:You have anyDavid Litt:Kinda, And she was going, Are you interested? It was, by the way, I still remember it was 2000. It was 2000 a week. And I was like, Yeah, I'm interested,Michael Jamin:But you wait. She and she worked for Klasky Shpo.David Litt:Her name was Laverne McKinnon. A shout out to her. She made my career, She made my life. I mean, she took a chance. She didn't know me from shit. She just thought, Oh, this guy's buddy.Michael Jamin:And you had a script ready. She must have read your script.David Litt:No, not at that point. She subsequently read something. But at that point it was like she was going on instinct. Like, Oh, this guy made me laugh. Wow. We have a comedy coming up and she, let's bring him in and meet withMichael Jamin:Him. And so she worked with in development at, SheDavid Litt:Was right underneath Arlene and Klasky and gpo. That's the Klasky and the Tupo.Michael Jamin:And they're the producers of that, the show that, But how long had you been in LA at that point? And how were you making a living before that at all?David Litt:Let me think. Yeah, she was okay. I had literally just gotten out here. I was living in New York and I was working in advertising and I was writing sketches sat, I was writing sketches for Saturday Night Live. They didn't know I was writing sketches for them, but I was doing it right. Somebody I knew and a manager named Barry Secunda. Okay. He managed Franken and Davis and another guy I feel like I owe a lot to because he didn't hang up on me. He didn't like, He said, Come in, let me read your stuff. He read all my shitty sketches that were, at the time I thought, this is genius. Now, when I read them now, I'm like, no. Yeah. So he hooked me up with a manager here in LA that he knew. And he was very encouraging.This is Barry . He said, Look, your stuff is great. You have the potential, but you've gotta get out to California. You cannot be a full-time comedy writer from New York. It's very difficult. And that's one thing when people call me for advice, I always ask them, A lot of people, the main thing, they don't wanna move away from their family, their home, their friends. That's the scariest thing you could do , but you've got to be ready to do it because you're very, very likely not gonna get a job if you're not in Los Angeles. I say this all the time, once you get good in Los Angeles, once you get Michael Jamin level, you can live anywhere in the world. Yeah. Not you a different Michael Jam. Yeah. That I have to.So I, at that point, I made the choice, I'm gonna move. And luckily I had supportive parents. They were like, Here's five grand, go move and chase your dream. They didn't make fun of me or tell me not to do it. Or I bought ps. It's not like I had much choice. I had one semester of Queens College . I had no other real alternatives. So you think not like I'm dropping at med school. . So then I got here, and at that first, Let me think. Yeah, pretty much the first week I was here is when I met Laverne and got that job. Maybe it was two weeks.I don't know if I, Did I ever tell you the story of I moved from New York, I give up the most phenomenal studio rent. Anyone who knows New York, it's such incredible thing to get a rent controlled or rent stabilized apartment. I still remember $580 a month for a gorgeous studio. They had just redone it, knew everything. And I had to make a choice. Do I leave this and move? I mean, I would still be living in that apartment. So finally I got the guts to move. Okay. My agent, what happened is, I'll give a little secret, I don't even know if they do this anymore, but there's something they made back then called the Hollywood Created Directory. Right? It was a big green book and it had all the agents in it, their phone numbers, what agencies they were with. So what I would do every day after my day, my shitty day job, which made me wanna hang myself in advertising. I worked at CBS with a couple of very nice people. They were not the problem. I was the problem , just get that outta the way.So I went out to a couple of agents in la, about three or four of 'em said, We really love your material. I was shocked. I didn't think I was going to get any agent. And as it is, I wound up getting my pick of about three or four, Not a level, but d plus level. Some pretty good agents. What we now would probably call boutique agents. The somebody at Broer was interested. Broer Carlin. Yeah. Yeah. So, right. Yeah. I mean, you of what I speak, but listen to this. It gets so great. I decide to load. I've never been to Los Angeles in my life. I load everything up on a truck. My buddy, I know one person in la he goes, Stay on my couch until you find yourself an apartment. It's fine. I said, Okay, great. I appreciate it. I get out here, The agent that decided to take me on, I don't know if I should give her name or not, but she says, I want you to meet me. There was a place called Cafe Fro. Yes. I don't know if you remember it. It was on Melrose. It was a big in West Hollywood. In West Hollywood. And I was, like I said, doing the multiple credit card thing. And I needed a job. So I had just applied there to Cafe Fro and they were about to start me on Monday. . So here I am, meeting with my agent on a Wednesday, Thursday.So I'm right now, picture this, My stuff is still on a moving truck coming across the country with no destination because I haven't found an apartment yet. I'm going to look for an apartment and I'm gonna then call the moving company and say, Here's where you need to deliver to. So in the meantime, over lunch, as we're having lunch, this agent is acting kind of odd. And I'm like, Why is she acting so weird? So finally it comes out, she says, Listen, I need to let you know I'm leaving the agency. It was innovative artists. She goes, I'm leaving the agency. And I'm like, I'm not joking. I just got there. Hadn't been there 24 hours. Right? I'm like, Okay, well I'll go with you. Where are you going? She says, No, I'm leaving the business entirely and I'm suing them for sexual harassment. I, we'll have to get the name afterwards. Cause I think you may have had the same agent. .So she . I'm not joking. . Well, I have to say that we turned out to be good friends as time went on. I don't wanna give too many specifics, but we'll talk after. Yeah, yeah. We'll talk off the air. But the good stuff is off the air. I don't want the four people listening to know . But what happened is, and by the way, tapping this whole thing, when we get outside to get our cars, she goes, Do you have money? I don't have any money and I can't pay the valet part. , I pay for her valet. But here's where the story turns into a positive. So I called all the agents back that I had that had been willing to take me on and that I had passed on. And I told them what happened. I said, I came out da da blah blah. Luckily I had left it on good terms. And I did wind up connecting with a great agent at Premier Artists . Her name was Susan Sussman. Okay. A great one of those agents that knows how to start people on their way to their first job. This is back in the days when people had actual patience with your career and would nurture you along and you know, remember that baby.And she was great. And that was when I fortuitously met this woman from Klasky, Cheapo and I, within two days or something, I called Susan Sussman and I said, Look, I think I may have a job. Can you negotiate this for me? . And the rest was history. She took me on. And that was that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But then why did you leave real monsters so quickly though?David Litt:I left Real monsters because I, It was a real Monsters was a Nickelodeon children show. And that wasn't, while it was writing and a great introductory job, it wasn't my dream. I mean, I didn't come out to write children's comedy and you who know me, that's not really my wheelhouse. Right. IMichael Jamin:Should go.David Litt:Yeah. I left because I had gotten through a friend a contact to do this show called The News. It was a takeoff of Saturday Night Live directed by the son of Don Wilson who direct Saturday Night Live. His name was Michael Wilson. He was the producer of the news. And it was sketch showsAnd we had so much fun. It was such a great gig. It was like everyone off in their offices writing sketches, . And then what would happen is every three weeks we all went down to Florida to Orlando for budget reasons and we shot on whatever that dolly would, or whatever it was. Some sound stages down there. Wow. It was such a great gig. So much fun. Now I would probably be a little snobby about it, but at the time it was just a great job. And we would write all the sketches in LA at Sunset Gour. Right. Some of the writers would write one or two sketches with each other, sell 'em alone. And the best sketches made it down to Florida and gotMichael Jamin:What became of some of those.David Litt:Got writing, got on the air.Michael Jamin:Cause a sketch writing is so specific. Did many of them go onto sitcom writing or are you in touch with any of them?David Litt:I'm in touch with a couple of them. Not many made the transition.Michael Jamin:Yeah.David Litt:I guess. What are they doing now? Trying to think. There's not a lot of sketch work for people. So if you can't do it, you're screwed. I mean, if you can't do something else, what are you gonna do? There's not a lot of work for, Yeah, I mean Sketch is a very, very specific art that you either get it or you don't. How to end the sketch. Right. Sometimes there is no end and you just chop it off in a very douchey, uncomfortable way. Right. I'm sure everyone is seeing those sketches where you're like, Wait, that's the ending . But that said, it was the kind of job where you went in. You did as well as you let yourself do. There was no one looking at theirDavid Litt:watch.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jam.com/watchlist.David Litt:Okay. So were, I'm sorry. So you were saying you were working as a property manager? It was reaching a point though, where I was, it was so tempting to have free rent, but I was getting pulled in two directions. It was like I'm getting my sketches on the air and I'm getting a call. My toilet is Blo . So I'm like running home from a table read to fix a toilet. So finally, again, much New York, I had to make a hard choice and get away from the comfortable, these look pretty good on me and get away from the comfortable. And I quit the job and I wound up getting, moving out, getting an apartment. And that was that. Then from there, let me think from there, Oh yeah, then I wrote an Ellen Spec, Remember Ellen? Of course with Ari Gross. And I love that show.And by the way here, this is a great lesson for anyone who cares enough to listen to what I'm saying. , a lot of times people say, I wrote a lot of specs. I probably wrote about 12 or 15 specs. I wrote a Herman's head. I wrote a lot of just shows I really liked. I didn't worry so much about will it get made, Will it, I just knew it was like sharpening my knife. And I wrote an Ellen, which everybody was like, Why are you writing an Ellen? No one's watching it. It's not, Back then the big ones were mad about you and mm-hmm Seinfeld. And I said, I just love it. I don't know. I mean, I love it so I wanna write it. And so I wrote it. And then Michael Whitehorn, who I co-created King of Queens with, he and I had already worked together on a show called, He had hired me on a show called Ned and Stacy with Tom Church.Michael Jamin:That was another great show.David Litt:Yeah. I loved it. It was a lot of fun. Michael was a great teacher and mentor. He would let me come to the mixes. I, I was still a staff writer at that point and he was bringing me to the mixes to,Michael Jamin:Or just you. Did he take, did he really just,David Litt:He was taking anybody who felt they wanted to go. A lot of people just wanted to go home after a long day. But if you were really dedicated and wanted to learn, he was 100% about including you and explaining how come you're doing that? Why can't you, can't we do it this way? And he would explain and it made some really just dumb questions. I would ask him. And he was great. And I think from Ned and Stacy it became obvious. We worked well together, . So that when King of Queens came along, he was very open to writing something together. Sony had a standup comic on stand or whatever, a holding deal,Which was Kevin James and Michael called me and he said, Look, I found this comic, I think he's pretty special. What do you think? And I watched it and I thought he was incredible too. Now, if I'm being honest, I needed the gig. I probably would've said he was incredible no matter what. But he was, you could just tell Kevin was special. So the next thing, Michael and I are writing this pilot together and that was another great experience. We wrote the whole thing in three weeks, . It took no time at all. It was, you know how it is, even with songwriters at least talk aboutMichael Jamin:David Litt:When they write a great song, it doesn't take it take a month, it takes 10 minutes. Right.Michael Jamin:But what'sDavid Litt:Interesting is, and that's howMichael Jamin:But you like, Sorry, go ahead. Well what's interesting is because was his cloud, he had a good idea, but he also, you needed him, right? Because he had a lot more clout. He wasDavid Litt:Way bigger. Oh yeah.Michael Jamin:Right.David Litt:Yeah, very much so.Michael Jamin:Some of those people think, Well how am I, do I sell my show? But they're like people off the street, you know, have to find someone who's in the position who can sell a show.David Litt:Yeah. I mean, without getting into too many specifics, I will say that after N and Stacy, I was sort of the golden child in the new writers that were out here. I was a little bit sought after and I got on a show that doesn't need to be named, but it was for me, it started out as one show and became another. And I just felt like, hey, this isn't what I signed on to do. . And that made them very angry. Coming from New York thought I'm going to use the honesty approach and I'm just gonna tell it. It is, Well it would've been better for me just to say my uncle died and I gotta leave instead of the truth. Because the truth hurt. The truth was rather they kept asking me, In fact, I remember, what show are you going to? What did you get an offer? I kept saying, I don't have any other offer. It's not about another show. I had the balls even at that point.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You ever do that now, Ever?David Litt:I don't think so.Michael Jamin:Yeah.David Litt:I don't think I would now. But at that time I just was filled with myself enough that I said, So what happened was, in that interim is when Kevin, as, when Michael came to me with KevinMichael Jamin:David Litt:And the studio was the same studio of the show, I just left and they were not having it. They were like, We want you never to work again. We intend on ruining you. We want to squash you like a bug. They were very upset at my hubris that I had said they were done. To Michael's credit, he fought for me. I mean, he didn't have to , but he went to the mat. He was like, Look, if you don't bring David in on this, I I'm not gonna write it.Michael Jamin:Wow. And that show made a ton of your show made a ton of money for the studio.David Litt:It did. It did well, yeah. Yes it did very well. Yeah. It changed my life. He changed my li Michael changed my lifeMichael Jamin:And then, Okay, go on. Do you wanna tell a little more more of that, Creating King Queens or getting it how the pilot shot and I'm sure people want to hear yourDavid Litt:Yeah, sure. Yeah, we wrote the pilot, like I said, it took two or three weeks. It just flowed. It was likeMichael Jamin:Then casting it. Okay, you had Kevin for sure and then you had aDavid Litt:Casting. Well we'd already had Kevin and we knew, well the second we met with Leah, we knew that's our couple.Michael Jamin:WeDavid Litt:Had tried to get Jerry Stiller, but he didn't wanna do it. Initially he was coming off ofMichael Jamin:Seinfeld,David Litt:Seinfeld and he just didn't really wanna do another series. But when he read the script, I guess it clicked. He got it. So once we had those three in place, it came together at that point. HowMichael Jamin:Were the ratings in the beginning when you finally got on the air?David Litt:The ratings in the beginning were solid but not stellar. We built pretty well. The thing that benefited us a lot was being Kevin, being friends with Ray Ram Romano,Michael Jamin:David Litt:Kevin doing guest spots on Ray's show. There was a lot of crossover and a lot of helping hands and it made it a lot easier to stick around a while and do crossovers cuz they were in each other's worlds.Michael Jamin:It's so sad cuz those days are over. Those days. Are those, It just seems like it's, Yeah,David Litt:It is kind of sad. I mean it's unfortunate because it's a great format if you do it right and not a hacky old fashioned wayMichael Jamin:Then okay, so you did that show 200 or so episodes cause that, Okay, I wanna say how I met you. I met you, we on, I was on out of practice, we were both on, and I guess we brought as a consultant, you were full time in out practice, right?David Litt:I had an overall deal at Paramount. Right. And they assigned me to out of practice, I think it was like two days or three days a week.Michael Jamin:And I remember being on that show, that was Chris Lloyd and joking and Chris Lloyd, he later co-created Modern Family. Chris Lloyd, he Rand Frazier. He has more Emmys on. He has a mantle full of Emmys like that.David Litt:Yeah. Chris is aMichael Jamin:Emmys. And so Chris is really one of the most highly regarded writers in Hollywood comedy writers in Hollywood. And I just remember, and I couldn't be remembering that wrong, but in my memory meeting you, this is how you would write a scene if you wanted to have a comedy writer join , a TV show, if you're writing a scene, a comedy writer enters a room. This is how you would've written it. Cause I remember we were working on a story and you were late and you came in your faces, you burst into the door, we're working. So suddenly the door flies open and then your face is kind of red because you're, you're probably running through the parking lot cause you're gonna be late and you're carry couple of boxes of gum gum and the room was false silent. Right. Cause you just in, you're like, Sorry I'm late. And then I think I was the first to break the silence. I was like, Oh, okay. You the gum. Right? And you Yeah. And you without missing. Yeah. Yeah. I got plenty of gum. Don't worry about the gum and you just it down.I, the rumor was that you were brought onto the show because, so some comedy writers are, they're not very funny in real life, but they can write a scene. They know how to be funny on paper. And then some commentaries just are just funny the minute you meet them . Right. And that was you. And you came in and it was really part of it was like this guy David, he's, we want him cuz he's gonna lighten the mood. He's just kind of, he's got . He's gonna lighten the mood in the room. And that's exactly what you did every day. It was always like . I mean, I can't remember. There's so many. WellDavid Litt:It's funny because I loved, I really surprised myself with how much I loved working with Joe Keenan and Chris Lloyd. Yeah. Their reputation was a little bit maybe serious. Yeah. But fra, they weren't like jokes.Michael Jamin:What'dDavid Litt:You say?Michael Jamin:They were the Frazier guys. So they had this reputation of being kind of these very smart and serious writers. And they certainly were both are amazing, amazingly talented writers. Oh yes. Had the seriousness about 'em. And you were brought on almost like the comic relief to the comedy verse .David Litt:Yeah. I think they enjoyed me. I was the fun monkey.Michael Jamin:Right. And it was because that was, you had already had your King of Queens money. , like none of us had that money in our back pocket. ButDavid Litt:Right. Everybody was nervous.Michael Jamin:We were worried about being fired. Right.David Litt:Yeah, you're right. I was a little more relaxed cuz I wasn't sweating it so much. But once I got to know them, I wanted to do a great job for them.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I remember one time, this is one of my favorite stories, is that we're stuck on a story beat. We're stuck on this thing for, I don't know, an hours or whatever, we're struggling this beat. And then you kind of broke the silence. You go, okay, here's the bad version. Let me tell you the bad version of the scene. And then you had spent five minutes laying out what you thought, what's the hackiest worst version of the scene? . And then Chris Lloyd just looks at you. He goes, What's the good version? And you just go, Oh, I don't have that . And you always fucking lost it. Oh my God. It was so funny. Oh my God. WasDavid Litt:That the room where I used to have some funny bits that I would literally take around different rooms in there? Yeah. I'm trying to remember, was that the one where I would do milk and cookies time where I would stop for a minute, just totally, No, I would say to Chris, I'd go, Chris, it's milk and cookies time. And he'd go, Okay, go ahead. And I would literally just shut off and have milk and cookies at my desk while everybody else continued to work. It was so funny.Michael Jamin:, I remember you coming in. I remember you. I mean, I remember you coming in, you were one of the first people to buy an iPhone. And I think you came in with, I think you upgraded to an iPhone too. And you came go like this iPhone too is gonna change my life. It's gonna change my life. And I said, I think I said no. But you said the same thing about the first time you got the first iPhone and the iPhone. You go, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I said that. But I mean it now. I mean , you really the two . I know I said it before, but the two, it's gonna change my life. theDavid Litt:Two is the oneMichael Jamin:. You're writing so much. Oh my God, you just made everyone laugh so much. I remember one time, , maybe I shouldn't even say it, but I'm gonna say it anyway unless you tell me to cut it out. We were on the stage floor watching rehearsal and you lean over to me real quietly and you go, Do you think Chris would mind if I flew to New York now , I think he would. Cause he's, he's paying you, He wants here for the rewrite. And you go, Yeah, yeah, you're probably right. And that was the last I heard of it. And then we go back to the room and you're nowhere to be found . And then you phone rings a couple hours later and I'm like, Hey man, where are you? You go, I'm at the airport. I'm getting on a plane. I can't talk. Tell Chris I'm not gonna make itDavid Litt:.Michael Jamin:It's just so funny. And we were just all just laughing about it. Everyone throws the funniest bossiest thing. Yeah, you're right. You'd get mad.David Litt:I did. I pulled a great one. I was on, according to Jim and the way they work there, each room would take a half of the script and go off. And I remember it was like we had our half and we were all working and one day after, I don't know, we were maybe 10 pages in. I got up and I to go to the ostensibly to go to the bathroom. But instead I couldn't fight the urge to just keep going to my car and go home.Michael Jamin:. I couldn't find it.David Litt:So I get home and there's the greatest messages from the producer of the show going, David, I It's Suzanne, you just left to go to the bathroom and you haven't come back yet. We're just getting concerned. So I guess we'll see in a couple minutes and then another 10 minutes. Another message. David, it's Suzanne, did you let us know what happened? You're not back here and we're getting worried. And then the third message was like, Did you go home? Oh Michael Jamin:Like, wait, did you get in trouble for doing that?David Litt:I did not.Michael Jamin:, I did not. See if you're funny enough you can get away with this stuff. I would. WellDavid Litt:That's what the lesson I'd like to impart. If there is one, it, it's really is fun to be a wise ass and funny and make everybody laugh. But you've gotta bring something to the table or you're just gonna get fired.Michael Jamin:Yeah,David Litt:Yeah. You've great to be funny and crazy and do bits and hopefully bring up the level of people's spirits in the room because it can get arduous.Michael Jamin:Yeah.David Litt:But if that's all you do and you're not contributing, you're gonna be abstracted and you're gonna get So that that's something that gets earned over time.Michael Jamin:Yeah, for sure. Then well what? And so, oh God, that just hurts. It hurts my stomach. Thinking how funny that was .David Litt:Tell 'em the story about the, what do you call it? The drone.Michael Jamin:The drone.David Litt:Was that with you? Where I brought a drone in on Oh no wait, that was Big bang.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You right. I should mention these are you also worked on Big Bang for a little bit. What'd you do? What was that story?David Litt:Yeah, who was that if it wasn't you, Chef? Well I bought a drone . Okay. And at the time they were very new. They go up a hundred feet and over. And so I bring it inAnd I'm like, Hey guys, how neat are these? And it was another writing group. Oh I know who it was. It was, Do you know Peter? Oh God. Shit. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You would know him. But we all went outside to use this brand new technology. So I'm like Guys, check it out. Next thing we know I let it goes up and continues to go up. I couldn't get it to go down and we lost it in the sun. We're looking and we never found it. It just got stuck in the treetop. It's probably still there.Michael Jamin:.David Litt:It was like $120 drone. I used it once to make it go hundred feet in the air. I never saw it again. That was the fun we hadMichael Jamin:. Oh my God. Oh yeah. I mean that's the people don't it really sitcom. Right. Really is a fun job if you're with funny people. But it's not so funny.David Litt:It's a great job. I don't know. People need to understand. I am a dinosaur. I mean the experiences I had you probably wouldn't have anymore.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I think so.David Litt:Which is a real shame because it's comedy and it should be fun.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Funny. Cause we, Jay Cogan did, Do you know Jay? Have you worked with Jay?David Litt:Yeah, of course. I've never, Okay. I worked with Jay on Den Stacy.Michael Jamin:Oh wow. He, because he did this podcast a couple a week or two ago and he kind of said the same thing. Rooms have tend to change that he would do a lot of room bits and you kind of really can't really do so many of those room bids anymore. But for what it's worth better or worse. But the world has changed. And I don't remember, I even remember after out of practice, you really wanted to do, you just wanted to consult. You wanted to come in a couple days a week and consult, which was something you could do a couple years before you could. There was some demand for that. And now there's just no room for that anymore.David Litt:Yeah. The real EM emeritus writers, the writers that were really looked up to, could get a job a day on doing punch up on one show a day on another . And those times right around then went away and there were no more jobs to be had of that Ill, Yeah, I mean that was my complete, my absolute dream was to be able to go to one show two days a week and maybe another show, another two days a week and have fun and have a great time. But the budgets at that time started shrinking. And the allowance for somebody to come in one day a week just wasn't there.Michael Jamin:Part of, I think about that part of the benefit, what we had when we were coming up is that we almost came through in a school. You get on a sitcom, you learn from the people who had a ton of experience before you and everyone kind of came from the school and you learn the craft from people before you.David Litt:Mm-hmmMichael Jamin:, that doesn't really exist anymore cuz those shows don't exist. So you know, you're winging it a little bit, but if you're a young writer, you're kind of winging it.David Litt:There's also a bit of a scary environment now. I think there's a lot of competition. and it, it's putting somebody under your wing and being patient with them is you don't see it as much because you could be costing yourself the job. You could be training somebody to take a job away from you.Michael Jamin:Well also, I don't know mean maybe, I don't know. My experience is that the orders are shorter. You're not gonna be on Aer if you're on a street show. You might be doing 10 weeks out of the year or whatever. You're not doing, you're working weeks or 40 weeks. You're working . So know you're what you got going on in there correctly. gonna nothing. What do you having a pastrami sandwich. . All right. So what do you do now? What? I know you were developing on the side, you're constantly working on stuff. What's going on there?David Litt:Write it down. I'm being a little lazy. I should be better at what I'm doing. But I'm working on a screenplay. I had a screenplay idea, and that was my next step was I wanted to become a script doctor. I really wanted to come in and do and fix screenplays, punch them up, et cetera.Michael Jamin:Right. I dunno how many there is for that either.David Litt:I don't either. Mean, my feeling is like, do what you love and do the best you can at it. And don't worry so much about the money. I have the luxury to be able to do that.Michael Jamin:Right.David Litt:But , I really love, my dream would be to get a call and come in and work a couple of days a week on punching this script up or making that script funny. But for now, I like working on an idea. I had an idea that kind of hit me. That's something I wanna finish. So that's what I'm doing right now. And it's great cuz your time's your own, you know, can work on it in the morning and do whatever you want later in the day. I'm also trying to do some dog rescue stuff.Michael Jamin:You're a dog rescue, so you walk around with a net into alleys.David Litt:. Yes. It's like in the cartoons with the big cargo net. No, I found out this horrifying thing that there are these wet markets in China that eat dogs. Alive. Alive.Michael Jamin:Alive. That's alive. That's too fresh.David Litt:That's too fresh. Yeah. . So I've wanted to start volunteering for dogs for a while. So I'm thinking about, I've been taking care of a cat for the past four months. She has since disappeared as of last week. I can't find her anymore.Michael Jamin:Taking care is not the right word then. . Yeah.David Litt:No taking bad care. But the writing is something I will never stop doing. I mean, I love it. Some days, even a week, I might go and get lazy and drop off, but it keeps me sane. It's a fun way to keep your imagination going and it's really a different thing when you're doing it for yourself as opposed to as a job or to make money or to pay your bills. That's a different set of stress and responsibilities. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Do you have any other advice for new aspiring writers?David Litt:Any advice for what?Michael Jamin:New and a new and upcoming writers.David Litt:It is a great way to make a living. There is nothing more satisfying than making a living as a writer, but just stick with it. Don't treat it like something you do when you feel like it. If you wanna write, give yourself hours. I don't know how you guys write, but I make sure I'm in front of that computer. At least three, four hours a day. 11 till two, 11 till three. And if nothing comes at all fine. But I was there trying to write. Sometimes you're gonna get something great and sometimes you're not, but you gotta put the time in to do it.Michael Jamin:Absolutely right. David led, creator of co-creative, King of Queens, a friend for many years. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with this podcast here with everyone. I really appreciate.David Litt:Thank you for having me. I like,Michael Jamin:Right. That's it everyone. So thank you for listening. If you, again, I'm gonna plug what else we got going on here. If you want to sign up for my free weekly newsletter, it's michaeljamin.com/watchlist to find out what's going on there. And yeah, that's it. Oh, and I dunno when this is gonna drop, but of course I got for my touring schedule to see me see my one man show A Paper Orchestra. You can go to MichaelJamin.com/Live upcoming sign up there. Right. Everyone, thank you so much and thank you again, David Litt.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. One more thing. Come see me perform. I'm going to be in Boston area, actually Amesbury, Massachusetts on November 12th and 13th at the Actor studio performing my show, a paper orchestra. And then I'm gonna be back in Los Angeles on December 10th and 11th again at the Moving Arts Theater Company. So tickets are on sale. Go get 'em at michael jamin.com/live. It's a small, intimate venue. I'm gonna be performing for my collection of personal essays and each one's gonna be followed by like a 20 minute q and a. We get to talk about the work. It's a fun event. So I hope to see you there. Go get them tickets again are at michaeljamin.com/live and of course, sign up to my weekly newsletter. That's called the Watch List at michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhillAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

In September, I hosted a webinar called "How To Write A Great Story" where I talked about what a "story" really is, as well as how to use personal stories to help your writing. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:It's not that The stakes of rocky areas are not about will Rocky win the fight? Who caress? Will Rocky win the competition? The contest who caress? No one cares if he wins. The stakes are, will Rocky finally feel like he's not a loser? Will he finally feel like he's not a bum? And that's something something all of us can relate to. You're listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about, I'm answering questions. Phil, I'm back here with Phil Hudson. Hey Phil. What up? So why do these webinars every three weeks? And I try to answer questions during them and we don't have time to get to all of them. So I'm going to be answering them right now and Phil's going to feed 'em to me.Phil Hudson:That's right. He'sMichael Jamin:Going to baby bird them to me. He's going to chew them up and dip 'em into my mouth.Phil Hudson:I'm going to spit 'em into your mouth. Regurgitate 'em. Love it. Yeah. You guys know the thing. We've been doing this for two years now, so we've got plenty of these episodes in the Can questions came up. We're going to dive into 'em Again, some of these things that were asked, we're not going to go over Michael because we've talked about 'em a thousand times,Michael Jamin:ButPhil Hudson:There are always some of those things that are still being asked that worth talking about a bit. So we'll go through 'em. I've broken 'em up into kind of categories just to make sure that it's easy to get through. Just be more, there are a couple of questions about your course in this I thought were worth bringing up because that was a lot of the questions that came up in September.Michael Jamin:Let's do it.Phil Hudson:Alright, let's dive into craftMichael Jamin:Michael.Phil Hudson:Dr. Adam wants to know, and these are YouTube. YouTube usernames forMichael Jamin:Anybody interested? Yes. Doctor IPhil Hudson:Help you with Dr. Adam wants to know how important is it for someone else to edit your writing,Michael Jamin:Edit? Well, when we work in television, it's very collaborative, so your work will be rewritten often heavily by the showrunners or the writing staff. But it's a very collaborative process from the beginning. We all work together to break the story, meaning figuring out what the story is, and I teach this in the course, how to break a story, and then you get notes in the outline, the first draft, the second draft, and the table draft, blah, blah, blah. So it's very collaborative. But if you're talking about, I dunno if the doctor's talking about some other kind of work other than television writingPhil Hudson:The Good Doctor.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I don't know, doctor, I'm not really sure what you mean other than I hope I answered your questionPhil Hudson:To me. Either way.Michael Jamin:You're getting my bill.Phil Hudson:Yeah, if you're billing the doctor, I love it. For me, this is a question more about, it's a common question I've seen with people starting out, which is getting feedback or peer review, if you will on things. I had a couple of friends over Mike Rap who's a writer on Tacoma d and Kevin who will feature the podcast soon and is in the screenwriting course. There were football and we talked a lot about this kind of stuff in writer's room stuff. They both work in writer writer's rooms and getting notes from peers even outside of the writer's room at our level, Kevin and I have probably spent 40 or 50 hours on Zoom now giving each other notes onMichael Jamin:Writing.Phil Hudson:That's incredibly helpful, but it's not so much that they're editing my writing, it's more of them talking about This didn't work for me, or Hey, I got confused here. And that's the feedback that you always talk about, which is the valid feedback is someone gets lost, they don't understand. It's not compelling. It's not really on page three. You have this ticky tack note where you overcapitalize a word or something like that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, editing could be not so much getting answers from someone, but just getting questions. And the questions could be, if someone's reading your work, they could say, I, what were you going for here? I didn't get what you were going for. And then you get to decide whether you want to clarify or keep it muddy. And probably keeping it muddy is probably not the greatest choice. So you just want to make sure that your audience is along for the ride. And I was going to do a post about this soon where I think part of your responsibility as a writer is to make sure you're holding your audience's hand and taking them along for the ride and not letting go because you don't want them to get lost. If they get lost, they're going to find something else to do.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, it's an interesting too, when you work with people who know story structure and they've been in writer rooms and they're giving you these notes. There are times where this thing didn't make sense to me, but I understand what you're going for there. Or I would consider this doing a different way. But then you get a note from the other guy and they're like, I loved this part. And so that conflicting thing is like, okay, I can keep this one. That's a choice. But when they're both like, Hey, I got really bogged down in this piece, that's a clear sign. You've got to fix something.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. Thank you DoctorPhil Hudson:Alex Kier, any tips on writing a story with multiple characters and stories like love? Actually?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, first of all, stories have multiple characters, but you're talking about multiple storylines. And so love actually is not that uncommon. It's a fun movie, but it's not that uncommon. You're basically just having multiple storylines and all the storylines are united by this one thread, which is love during Christmas. That's it. And there's different types of love. There's Brotherly Love. The way the Rock Star character had for his manager, what was that guy's name? But there's brand new love the way the two characters who met on the porn set. That's like an awkward way of meeting. And there's other romantic love between a couple that's been married for a long time, and that was Emmett Thompson's character with Alan Rickman's character. Then there's Love, new Love Upstairs, downstairs, love, which was, what's his name? Hugh? Hugh Grant, come on. Hugh Grant, thank Hugh Grant's character.I don't remember her name, but he was the prime minister and she was the lowly chambermaid or whatever she was supposed to be. And then you have another Love one character was a love where they can't communicate. So it was Colin Firth's character and I don't remember her name, but she didn't speak. She was the Portuguese maid and she didn't speak English. So you're just examining love over Christmas between different types of love and that's how they're all united. So that was the theme. And every story has to tell a version of that. Oh, then there's one of the love there was brand new love, like puppy love, right? There was a storyline between the kid and what's his name? He was like the young kid and his stepfather, Liam Neeson. And he's trying to coach him into, wasn't that in love actually, or is that somethingPhil Hudson:Else? I have never seen love actually.Michael Jamin:Oh, you got to watch it. So yeah. So those are my tips. So that's it. And you're just kind of integrating these very stories so each one can stand on its own. Each story can stand on its own. And you're probably, if I had to time it, I would imagine that most stories, so there was one other, there was unrequited love where the guy had a crush on his best friend's, new wife, Kira Knightly, and so all different kinds of love. And I imagine if you took a stopwatch and you timed out each storyline you'd get to, they, they're all approximately the same amount of weight in terms of screen time and that's it. And if they weren't, I imagine it's because some of the stories got cut down because we weren't quite as compelling on camera as they were in the script. But I talk about this a lot. Maybe I should do a breakdown in the course of love. Actually, I talk aboutPhil Hudson:This. People love that. And you brought love actually up in stuff in the courseMichael Jamin:I did. Okay. We already talked about it.Phil Hudson:Well, I don't think you've done a case study. And for those who are unfamiliar, Michael has these awesome case studies in where you'll talk about movies you love Amle, and you'll talk about, I think, did you do Rocky Ferris Bueller's Day Off Castaway, just looking at films and TV shows and kind of breaking 'em down for story structure and talking about what works, what doesn't. And then you also hypothesized this, I imagine got cut in editing becauseMichael Jamin:AsPhil Hudson:A writer, there's a thing here that could be here or was missing, that kindMichael Jamin:Of thing. Yeah, there was a scene that I think that was missing from love actually, that I imagine they shot, but they just cut it for the sake of time.Phil Hudson:But I think it would be worth doing that. I think the members in the course would be pumped to get another case study,Michael Jamin:But there you go. Take the course if you want to learn more. But that, it's a good question.Phil Hudson:You hit on something that you talk about in one of your webinars that we're going to be putting back into the cycle because people really liked it, which is how do professional writers create great characters? And there's this nuance you talked about in the September webinar thatMichael Jamin:BecamePhil Hudson:A full webinar, and it's about how you pick your characters. So I'll leave that a bit nebulous. So anybody's interested in that, come attend the nextMichael Jamin:Webinar. Yeah, please do. Because free in the next one, I'm talking about either character or story structure.Phil Hudson:So when this podcast drops, it'll be like tomorrow, literally tomorrow, that's going to be the podcast that we're talking, the webinar we're talking about. And you can sign up at michaeljamin.com/webinar to get notified.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Cool. Leanne Allen, how important is it for the goal to be broadly relatable?Michael Jamin:Well, it's very important. I mean, the goals should be hugely important to the character, and it should be something that we could all hopefully relate to. I mean, if the goal is redeeming yourself in your mother's eyes, that's very relatable. If the goal is, I know if the goal is winning first prize, first place in a contest, who caress, it has to be more than that. It has to be more relatable than that. To be honest, I don't really care about winning contests, so I don't really care if your character wins a contest, but if winning the contest is a way for this person to finally feel good about themselves and their lives because it's validation, because they're a loner and because no one's ever looked at them twice and win this contest as a way of them being able to hang their head up high publicly, that's a relatable goal. Understand. But winning a contest in itself, who cares?Phil Hudson:And that's the value of what you teach in these webinars and in the course is the difference between plot and story. Plot point would be they have to win this contest. The story is like, why does this matter? ToMichael Jamin:Why?Phil Hudson:How is this going to affect them? It's the internal need versus the external need. Winning the contest is the external, but the internal is the reason we watch it. And that's the relatable piece.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Desmond Bailey, how do you not front load the pipe?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, boy, I talked about this a lot. I wonder why they're askingPhil Hudson:This. And just to clarify for people, this will be helpful. These are questions directly coming from the chat in the webinar when people are asking questions and they're questions we didn't get to in the q and a portion of the webinar, so this is something you had related to, or they're setting something you set in the webinar, which was don't front load your pipe or don't be pipe. And so maybe explain pipe and expedition to people.Michael Jamin:So pipe is what we call in the business, we call it exposition. So it's all the stuff that you need to know. It's the background story. It's the story before the story begins. And generally it's boring. Pipe is just like something you need to hear, not you don't want to hear it. You need to know to the characters. And so generally, the faster you can get to the pipe, the better, or you have to be artful about the pipe. So here's a bad version. You'll watch a show and you'll say, Susie, you're my sister. Why would I ever do that with you? My sister? A character would never tell another character, you're my sister. That's pipe. Because that character, she knows her sisters, Frankie, we've been best friends for 18 years, Frankie knows this. And so there are ways to get through the pipe artfully so that your audience doesn't feel like, Ugh, why people don't talk like that. Often a way to do this is by introducing a third character. So when a third character comes on the screen, the person who are you just talking to? Ugh, I was just talking to my sister. Now we know who that person is. Right? Sis, anytime you hear someone, a character calling the character sis, you roll your eyes. I've never met anyone who called her sister Sis.Yeah, and I talk more about that in the course, but I just happened to watch, I was sent a short to potentially work with someone and they shot a miniature TV show. I guess it was sent to my agent or somebody. There was a lot of pipe in it. It was a lot of clunky pipe because they just didn't know how to do it Every time it just stops the story cold.Phil Hudson:So the question is, how do you not front load the pipe? Do you have any tips for how to do that? I mean,Michael Jamin:ObviouslyPhil Hudson:The character, but if I've got to get this stuff out, and maybe you don't need to get it out at the front, because I saw someone do this masterfully where a character was introduced very late in the film, and it added this beautiful plot point that tied back to something at the beginning and explained something. But it was intriguing enough that I got through two thirds of the film before this part mattered. But it's rare to see that. It seems like people are just, act one is laying down the pipe and getting you set in your wall.Michael Jamin:YouPhil Hudson:Understand? And I don'tMichael Jamin:ThinkPhil Hudson:What you teach us is that that's the wrong way to do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, because pipe is so boring. All that exposition is boring and you think it's important. You think you need it, and I'm telling you, you better figure another way around it. No one wants to hear it. So you could drip it out slowly as the audience needs it, or you could burn through it fast or you could, there's just a number of ways of doing it, but giving me entire scenes of pipe is not the way to do it. That's going to bore the hell out of everybody. No one wants to watch pipe.Phil Hudson:Yeah, makes sense.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome. So those are our craft questions for this episode or for this, but we've got breaking in one question on this, Kelli Art, what's the best way to get paid to learn writer's assistant? How do you get such a competitive job?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, so writer's assistant is a fantastic way, but it's not an entry level job because you have to know how to do it. I've talked about this before. I'm not qualified to be a writer's assistant. I don't really know the ins and outs of the job, even though I've been a showrunner several times. So the way you learn how to be a writer's assistant is you start off often as a production assistant and you hang out with the writer's assistant. You ingratiate yourself and you ask, Hey, can I watch you work? And then you learn how they do it. Then hopefully that writer's assistant falls deathly ill, and you take their job away from them, and that's how you do it. Then once you're in the writer's room, that's the best way to get paid to learn. You will learn so much that you'll get lost. And so it's a long process. But yeah, that's a wonderful way to do it.Phil Hudson:And if you're a writer's pa, we've talked about it on the podcast many times, you still get to learn. You're sitting outside of the room within ear, so if they need something, they call you. So you're sitting outside the room listening to them, break the story and tell jokes. And I had this moment where Kevin Heffernan walked in one time and he's just like, and I still really knew it was maybe a month into me being a writer's assistant. This is the showrunner for people who don't know. And he's like, how's it going? You watching a lot of shows? And I was like, Nope. He's like, man, why not? You're sitting here all day. And I was like, I'm just riding. He's good for you. And he just walked away because that's what most people do is they get in that room and they sit there and they just watch Netflix or they do something. But I treated it, and this is probably because of advice you gave me from what you did, is that is craft time. You're sittingMichael Jamin:Down,Phil Hudson:You are riding. So when they're breaking stories, I'm listening to how they're breaking stories. I'm listening to pitch things when they're not in or somebody's out, then I'm working on my stuff. It's just taking advantage of every moment.Michael Jamin:I learned this from my first roommate when I moved out here. I had one of these PA jobs and I was not happy with it. And he's said, just think of it like you're getting paid a lot of downtime. Think of it. You're getting paid to learn how to write. And I was like, okay, you're right. You're right about that. So in that downtime, I just started. And then of course you could read scripts, you could talk to writers, you could ask them, why did you make this change? You get to talk to people and they'll give you little tips hopefully.Phil Hudson:And by the way, Michael, this is advice. You kind of gave me the preamble to this advice really before I even got to la. But then there was a moment where you kind saw, it was two years in three years into doing this stuff, and you gave me that same advice. Just look at it as you're getting paid to learn. I dunno if you could see it in my face or something, but it was like,Michael Jamin:Well, it's hard. I know what it was. It's a souls. It can be so frustrating. You're so close to the job you want. Literally, you are three feet away from the job you want and you're there for years. And it's like, when do I get to move up to that other seat that I want to sit in? So it's very, how is it not frustrating? But it's just how it is.Phil Hudson:But it's not individual either. Like I said, I was just here with Mike Rapp and Kevin, and they're both worst. One has been a script coordinator. The other was a script coordinator who bumped and broken as a staff writer,Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:They were talking, they'd never met each other, so they're just kind of giving each other the resume. And it's like, yeah, I moved here and I was at Disney working in the parks for four years, and then I met someone whose husband was an executive and AB, C, and he brought me in for the pilot season. And then I got hired as a writer's PA on the Muppets. And I was like, this is it. I'm in, because it's the Muppets, it'll never get canceled. And then it got canceled, and then it was hopping between show to show from different job to different job for seven years until he finally got the bump. And Mike rep was not really any different. He moved here and he was in a production company and always dangling the carrot of, we ever get a show, we'll get you into, be in the writer's room. And six years finally got a show and got the job.Michael Jamin:But you know what though? I've been on shows where PA has worked on the show and the PAs have gone to some of the PAs who worked for me. One is big in Chuck Laurie's world, so he's like a exec or, and he's directed several episodes of Sheldon or Big Bang, one or the other. And the other one has done a lot of, it's always Sunny in Philadelphia. And another one is co-executive producer of Bob's Burgers. And these are all people who started off as PAs underneath me. And so that's where they are. So it's like it'sPhil Hudson:Just a process.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a process. You got to hang in there.Phil Hudson:I was thinking on my drive today, I went out and had to get some stuff and I drove around and I was like, yeah, I think people just think that this stuff is beneath them, and you can't have that attitude. I came at it thinking, look, this is just the path. This is the apprenticeship model. I want to learn from these people. And you talk about this, people always want to jump further ahead in their careers and become a showrunner and sell their first thing and do that. And we all want that because the dream, but you're kind like, you kind of don't want that. What you want is to learn how to do the jobMichael Jamin:Because you'll get fired so fast if you don't have to do the job. I was going to answer a post like that on social media soon, but someone had a showrunner question. So I'll do a post about that soon.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Cool. Couple of questions about the course here. Tank a Soar. Do you have a lesson on how to write a French farce? And this is a topic that came up in theMichael Jamin:Webinar? Yes, goodPhil Hudson:Question. So maybe define what that is for people. I don't think that's a term many people know.Michael Jamin:A farce is three's company did a lot of Farces, Frazier did a lot of farces. So it's a lot of slamming doors, people overhearing things, misinterpreting things, and only hearing the conversation and assuming that this person wants this thing. And it's a lot of doors slamming and just people crossing and misinformation. It's a lot of fun. And I said in the webinar that I wrote for Joe Keenan, who was one of the Frazier writers, and he created with Chris Lloyd, a show called Out of Practice that I wrote on for a year. And Joe is brilliant, brilliant at writing FARs. I don't know anybody better. I watched a show, a famous episode of Frazier, just to study for this. What could I talk about FARs? I watched an episode, I think it was, I dunno what it's called, the Ski Cabin episode or something. It was very funny. In my opinion, FARs is a really, they're hard to do well and they're hard to sustain. The stakes are always, to me, they're hard to sustain because the stakes are always, it's always about a misunderstanding. And so it's always silly. And so very, very hard in my opinion, to really write a really good farce. And I wouldn't necessarily start there if that was what your goal is, I'd start writing something a little easier. I don't know.It is hard. And they're a little tortured, and that's okay. But yeah, I don't know. You're asking me how do I hit a grand slam? Well, let's talk about how they get on base first.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And the question was, do you have a lesson on how to write a French forest in the course?Michael Jamin:Yeah, there is no, and I thought about after I watched that episode of Frazier, I go, maybe I should do a lesson on that. And then I watched, I go, nah,Phil Hudson:I don't think I should. I think it personally, I just think it would be a mistake. You're going to send all the hundreds of people in your course down a rabbit hole of riding French farces, and they're going to get lost in that, I think.Michael Jamin:And there's no demand for it. Like I said, I think it's just don't start there. Don't start there.Phil Hudson:Shiny object syndrome. We find something new and that's what we want to do. And then the reality is you got to focus on the fundamentals. That'sMichael Jamin:All thatPhil Hudson:Matters.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Keith Shaw wants to know is the beat board, the unpacking of the crate? And for context, everybody, Michael has this story he's talked about on the podcast and brings up in the webinar occasionally about how to unpack a story. And there's this crate of parts, and then it's how you unpack that, and that's what a story is. I don't want to give too much away, but whatever you want to give away, Michael.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, so every writer room I've ever been in has a big whiteboard, and the s showrunner will send the whiteboard and we'll start pitching the idea and then we'll figure out how to break it on the board, figuring out what the act break is. First act break is second, act break middle to two top, you lay it out all the parts, and you look at it as a whole and does it hold together? And then that could take a week, and then you start writing an outline off of the board. So when they say the analogy, I talked about unpacking a crate. Yeah. It's similar to what a board is. The whiteboard is. It's like what's the order in which we're going to unfold all the, unpack the elements of the crate to tell an engaging story.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. James Moore, what's the difference between a log line and an outline?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, a log line is one or two sentences. And outline could be 10 pages if you're talking about a half hour TV show. So that's the difference.Phil Hudson:And line is you've alluded to, everyone needs a log line. If you don't understand it, you don't know what you're writing. And an outline is a step in the writing process. And it typically, it's a couple steps after you break a story.Michael Jamin:And the log line, a lot of people don't know if I ask you, what's your story about? And they go, well, it's about this and also about this, and also about this. It's like, okay, if you can't explain what your story is in one or two clear, succinct sentences, if you can't explain your story, then you don't understand your own story. And if you don't understand it, the audience isn't going to understand it. So it's really important to have a clear log line about what your story is about one or two sentences. That's it. Simple. Einstein said it. If you can't explain something simply, chances are you don't understand it.Phil Hudson:Yep. David Campbell asked a very similar question about the order. I think we answered that. So David, that should answer that question for you. JY Tau, does the course teach you how to get your work produced?Michael Jamin:Oh, no. And a matter of fact, that shouldn't be the goal. The goal, that course teaches you how to write a great script. And that's the only thing you have control over here. Most people want to skip that step. This guy's asking me, will the course teach me how to become a millionaire? No, the course doesn't teach you that. Does the course teach you how to give an acceptance speech at the Oscars? No. It won't teach you that. The course, all that is look, that comes later. Hopefully the course will teach you how to write a good script or hopefully a grade script. And everyone skips that step. They assume they already have it. And I'm here to tell you, you don't. And maybe you're the 1% that does great, but 99% of the people think they're in that 1%. And most people who go through the course say, oh, thank God, I wish I know. Now I have to go back and rewrite that script because I thought it was great. And now I'd realize it's not so.Phil Hudson:Amen. I'm one of those people. And this is a bit of the Dunning Kruger effect, which is this moment where you learn a little bit of something and you think you're an expert in it.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Then the more you learn, you realize there's a lot to learn. And then there's a certain point where you know more than you think. And Michael, even at your level, I hear you say this, sometimes I'm not as good as that guy, or I'm not that. And that may be factually true in terms of talent, but it's also, that's the humility of being an expert is knowing how little in this space,Michael Jamin:That's another thing is if you were to ask almost any showrunner I've worked with or worked for, they'll all tell you, oh, writing is so hard. It's the people who are just starting out who will tell you, Hey, I'm good at this. And you don't know what you don't know yet. And the more you do it, and now I'm at the point where I'll look at something, I'm like, oh God, I'm starting to unravel and I have to trust myself because it's like, is this the best way to tell the story? Maybe there's a better way.Phil Hudson:That's no different than my career in digital marketing though. I'm at the point where I can say I'm an expert. I've been doing it for how many years? Over a decade. But there's plenty of time still where I'm like, oh man, I don't know. Is this going to work? And then you have toMichael Jamin:JustPhil Hudson:Go back and say, there is a pattern and a history here of results that back up what I think I need to do. And I just have to go with that because million different caveats and details you got to pay attention to in all of this. And Michael, by the way, this is a big thing you helped me with was just focusing on the detail. Stop being so, I don't want to call it lazy writing, so much time and energy that goes into it, but it's the passing over the detail and the detail is the devil. It's in theMichael Jamin:Detail. Yeah, the little things stand out.Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content And I know you do because You're listening to me, I will Email it to you for Free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, Actors, Creative types, people like you can Unsubscribe Whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com/and now back to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about Mishu Pizza.Phil Hudson:So if we take the course, do we get certified?Michael Jamin:Phil has tried to convince me to offer certification.Phil Hudson:I think there's a good certification. I want to be clear.Michael Jamin:Its thePhil Hudson:Type of certification we'll explain after yours. SoMichael Jamin:Here's the thing, if I were, I have said over and over again that if you got a degree in screenwriting and MFA in screenwriting or certificate, whatever, the degree itself is worthless. You're not going to go into a meeting, you flash your degree. When I go into a meeting, I don't even talk about my college education. No one caress. No one caress where I went to college. It doesn't come up. All they care is, can I put words on the page that compel people to turn the pagePhil Hudson:And the fight you got into with your wife the previous day? That's the story.Michael Jamin:Oh, we'll talk about that. Yeah, the degree, if I offered a degree, I think I'd be hypocritical. Hey, I have a degree from Michael Jamin University, or whatever the hell it is. I know some people want that, but I feel like, again, it's that's not going to open doors. Your script's going to open doors. And if I can teach you how to write a great script, that's more important than a gold star for me,Phil Hudson:My pitch for everybody was that Michael put out a certificate. So when you complete the course, you get that says, congrats, here's your fancy certificate, it's worthless. Go write something good. You goMichael Jamin:Write something. Yeah, we could do something like thatPhil Hudson:That I thought would be kind of just chef'sMichael Jamin:OnPhil Hudson:The whole thing. Desmond Bailey question, do you build this story? I wonder if his name's Desmond Bailey question or if this is just Desmond Bailey has aMichael Jamin:Question.Phil Hudson:Do you build the story world first and then inject the characters or focus on characters and let the world procedurally generate as they navigate it?Michael Jamin:So I spoke about this though in the webinar, so I feel like he probably was jumping the gun. IPhil Hudson:Think it's a good question. I think it'sMichael Jamin:Worth, yeah. Well, I answered it and I basically say you do it at the same time. And I think about what the world is first and who are the best characters to put in this world, or as I've said in the webinar, who's the worst character to put in this situation? And if you want to know what I mean by that, you're going to have to come to the next webinar where I talk about character. But that's the way I look at it. Who's the worst person to put in this situation?Phil Hudson:Yeah, there you go. Alec Cuddle back. My stuff is usually story driven and people criticize preferring character driven. Why is that?Michael Jamin:Oh, because plot is boring. Okay, what's this person's name?Phil Hudson:Alec Cuttle.Michael Jamin:Alec, alright, Alec. Okay. So I dunno if you're young or old, but there's a movie called Rocky, starring Sylvester Stallone. The first Rocky was fantastic. It won the Oscar put Sylvester Stallone on the map after they did Rocky, they did eight more Rocky, eight more. I don't know how many Rockies they did, including Creed and Creed One and Creed two or whatever. They've made countless sequels to Rocky. Every single rocky has the same exact plot. You put someone in a boxing ring and they get the shit kicked out of them, and then maybe at the end they're alive. So the plot itself for Rocky and most of the Rockies are not considered great. Only one won the Oscar, and that was the first one, even though the plot is virtually identical. So the difference between Rocky won and Rocky a hundred is the story. One had a just amazingly compelling small story, and the other ones lacked that. And so what this guy's Alec is talking about is it sounds like he's just got, I got a lot of plot. Well, who caress the plot is not the good stuff. You got to have a good plot. But it's, the story is what makes people cry. And if you want to know the difference between plot and story, you have to come to my next free webinar because I talk. It's an hour long discussion.Phil Hudson:Excellent. Cameron Billingsley, how do you know you have drawn out the anticipation enough when you're building anticipation in yourMichael Jamin:Storytelling? Yeah. Well, I wonder if the person's talking about any kind of reveal or I guess we don't really know.Phil Hudson:I think this was specifically tying back to the crate, unpacking the crate.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Well, how do you know? It's like these moments have to be built to anytime you have a big reveal or a moment in Act three, whatever it is, the big fight scene, the fight scene in Rocky or whatever, you have to build to it. And it's literally putting the steps on a pyramid and then you get to the top. And then if you skip a step or if each step doesn't build, you're not going to get to the top of that pyramid. And the top is the view, the top is everything. And so how do you know? Well, that's the process of writing is taking your, how do you know when you've built the anticipation? That's all of it. So if I were to write Rocky, I'm thinking in my mind, I'm building to the moment when Rocky, at the end, when Rocky's getting the shit kicked out of him, boom, time after time again by Apollo.And he keeps getting up and he keeps getting up. And I want to build that last moment where they're both down on the mat, or I don't even remember which Rocky it was. But when Rocky, the fight's almost over and Rocky's on the mat and he stands up again, just this guy won't go down. And that is even thinking about it, I get chills, but you have to build to that. That's what you're building to, which is a guy who will not quit. And why is it so important? When we talked about earlier in this podcast, it's not that the stakes of Rocky are not about will Rocky win the fight? Who cares? Will Rocky win the competition? The contest? Who cares? No one caress. If he wins, the stakes are, will Rocky finally feel like he's not a loser? Will he finally feel like he's not a bum? And that's something all of us can relate to, is that feeling, that self-worth. And so you have to build to that. How do you know? Well, that's everything. That's what you focus on. And if does help, if you're seen does not add one step on that pyramid, then to build to that final moment, then why are you have it in there? Why is it in the script?Phil Hudson:The next question from Willow is how do you know the difference between true story that should be included versus minutia and unnecessary information? I think you just answered that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Because if you don't need it, why is it in it? Why is it in there?Phil Hudson:So tying all this together for people who are newer, and good recap for me, because again, you got to remind yourself of the fundamentals every day. You even talk about how you have to remind yourself, oh yeah, this is hero, obstacle, goal, kind of that stuff. So we have a log line, and the log line helps me understand what I'm trying to accomplish with this story. But that's typically based off of a theme and that theme, my opinion generally included inside of that log line, so that I understand this is what I'm trying to accomplish with this. So the log line for Rocky is, can a bum from Philly go the distance with the champ? It's not even, can he beat the champ? It's can he go the distance? And so everyone tells him he can't think he can, and then at the end, there's that moment when he gets up, you're talking about, and Apollo creed's like, soul is taken. Are you kidding me? He'sMichael Jamin:StillPhil Hudson:Getting up. This guyMichael Jamin:Won't get down.Phil Hudson:And that's the moment where it's like, that's him getting up. And then he, Apollo wins and he's like, I did it. And it's like a victory for him because this guy won't stop and everyone's celebrating Rocky. And Rocky goes, Adrian, I did it. Right? Yeah.Michael Jamin:And I think the last line, Apollo says, there ain't going to be no rematch. And Rocky goes, don't want one. He doesn't want, he got what he wanted, and of course they made 10 more. But yeah, a beautifulPhil Hudson:Story. But they all stack and build all of these details build, like you said, you're building them to this and all of them play off the theme and the log line. And that's why all of these details, breaking the story, outlining the story, they all have to be there. Because if you're just, and we talk about how all these writers have different styles, and for some people it's making it up as you go. But professional writers, there's a process. You break the story and you do your thing, and then you do your outline, you do all these things, and then you do your rewrites and many rewrites because you're still figuring out those tiny details. But it's not like I'm going to make it up as I go because you need plant and payoff. You need these things and these symbols almost that allude to the theme and the theme plays throughout the whole thing. And if you're not structuring that like an architect, it's going to feel very hodgepodge Frankenstein. And that's a note you gave me Frankenstein together.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Phil Hudson:So there you go. People are going to be pissed. I talked to you not long on your podcast, Michael,Michael Jamin:I'll tell you. No, no, no,Phil Hudson:No, no,Michael Jamin:No.Phil Hudson:Couple more questions here.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Justin had another question for short comedy films on YouTube. Max lengths is one minute. That's shorts.Michael Jamin:That's for shorts. Clarify.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Does short structure still apply to any length film? Curious how you would approach writing a story for a one minute film? This is a format question for people who are not in the know. YouTube stories are the equivalent of Instagram reels or Facebook reels,Michael Jamin:YouTube shorts.Phil Hudson:YouTube shorts,Michael Jamin:Right?Phil Hudson:And they are, excuse me. Yeah, so they're 60 seconds, and then IMichael Jamin:Think there's 90. You're saying there's 60,Phil Hudson:That's Instagram. Instagram is expanded to 90, but YouTube is 60. And that's what this is referring to, which is a medium on YouTube, not necessarily a cap on what you can put on YouTube.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So I would say it's really hard to tell a complete story in 60 seconds, but you could tell one part of a story in 60 seconds and then another part, another 60 seconds. You could stretch it out. You might be able to tell a compelling scene in 60 seconds and a scene should have a shape to it, but don't think, can it be done? Yeah. I don't think it could be done that well. I don't think anyone's going to be that satisfied. I think you need more time to get that plane up in the air and land it. But think a bit of it like this, if a story is a journey, how far can you go in 60 seconds on a journey? Not very far at all. You can go to the end of the block. The view at the end of the block is pretty much the same, the view from my house. So I think you need more time. That's just my opinion now.Phil Hudson:Yeah. To see good shorts that you've recommended to me was go back and watch the Broad City original shorts that were put on YouTube.Michael Jamin:Okay. How long are they?Phil Hudson:They can be 90 seconds to three minutes, but they're not full stories necessarily. They're more kind of skits and you introduce your characters and we learn more about them and more interactions in different episodes of,Michael Jamin:That's just really, I never saw those. I saw the TV show Broad, which I love, but I didn't watch the shorts. Got it.Phil Hudson:Someone had a question. Again, these are miscellaneous. Someone wanted to know when they could see your CNN interview. So the day we did this webinar, you had just gotten off with CNN and joined the thing. But yeah, you've been on CNNA couple times now, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. I think you can go to my website, Phil, right? Isn't it upPhil Hudson:There? Yep. It'll be live is MichaelJamin.com And then you can just go to the About tab and you'll see it.Michael Jamin:Is it on the bound? I thought it was going to be on the pressPhil Hudson:Or something. It's press tab. Yeah, but we don't have the URL final right now, but by the time this comes out, it'll be out because we're doing some cleanup. We redesign on michaeljamin.com.Michael Jamin:Oh, it's Jill's doing a great job. It's going to be exciting. Appreciate that.Phil Hudson:AppreciateMichael Jamin:That.Phil Hudson:Jill Hargrave, she inMichael Jamin:The, oh, wait, hold on. If anybody wants their website redesigned, go check out Rook Digital, which is Phil's company. This is what he does.Phil Hudson:Yeah, Shannon was plugged. Thank you, Michael. Appreciate that. Jill Hargrave, she's in the course, right? Jill?Michael Jamin:I don't know.Phil Hudson:I believe she is. Yeah. If you're writing a biopic, does the story definition apply as the story is at least one event in the person's life and sometimes many more events than just one?Michael Jamin:So ifPhil Hudson:You're writing a biopic, does the story definition apply? I'm guessing is a biopic, is it the whole person's life, or is it a moment in this person's life?Michael Jamin:I don't know. It's kind of what you decide to write it about, I would assume. Yeah, it is what you want to decide. I've seen it both ways. You might write about JFK the early years, and maybe you're following his life in college in Harvard, I think, and that could be a whole thing. Or you could tell JFK's entire life story up until the moment he died. I mean, you could do that as well. But either way, you have to know how, and I talked about this as well. I spoke about, I really hope people come to this next webinar. I use an example of Amadeus, which is, in my opinion, the best biopic ever made. It's a beautiful movie. It's probably three hours long. There's an intermission. There's an intermission fucking movie. That's how long it is. It's myPhil Hudson:Amazing, my wife's favorite movie, by the way,Michael Jamin:Is it, isPhil Hudson:She wants me to name one of our children, Wolfgang. And I was like, come on, man. Wolfgang Hudson.Michael Jamin:I don't know Wolf. I don't know. I don't know. I'm Amm on her side.Phil Hudson:I'll let her know. She'll be pumped.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. So I spoke about that, about come listen to, I hope they come to the webinar. Well, she did. She heard it where I spoke about You're still just telling one aspect of his life of Wolfgang Mozart's life. You're not, there's a lot. They left out, the guy lived, I dunno how long he lived, but the movie's three hours and the guy lived longer than three hours. So there's a lot they left out. They only just filed this one thread of his life. And that's how you tell the story. So don't tell. In other words, don't tell. I feel like you don't want to tell the story. Someone's life story. You want to tell one story from their life.Phil Hudson:And Oppenheimer, I think is the very current version of that that did a great job. It is building up to help us understand why this person was uniquely put in this position, why it was taken from him, and then how ultimately he got justice with having to, because of his character.Michael Jamin:And there's a lot they left out, and I'm sure, I think it got some criticism for that, but what are you going to do? You can't tell everything. You have to pick a story.Phil Hudson:Yep. Yeah, adaptation. Right? It's a whole different segment of screenwriting. That is brutal. Absolutely brutal. Because you're just cutting things and combining things, and it's just a different part of the world. Helga G. How do you deal with the other characters in your life that might not be comfortable being in your story?Michael Jamin:You don't put 'em in. You don't put 'em in it. It's not your story to tell. I'm actually reading, I'm just about to finish a wonderful book by this Canadian author, Sheila Hetty, and it's called How Should a Person Be? And in this book, which is an auto fiction, so it's a true story. She uses some of her friends as characters in the story, and she talks about the blowback she got from that, which is so interesting. And I'm going to have her on my podcast soon, but I don't do it for that reason. I don't do it exactly for that reason, but I'll talk to her about it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. Last question, Rob Kao, CAO might be C Chao, I don't know. Is that Italian? CAO? It's like CI. AoMichael Jamin:Would C-C-I-A-O.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Sorry, Rob, ruin in your name. Within the last year, I've had an idea of writing a script with two specific actresses in mind. What do you recommend that I do?Michael Jamin:Well, they're not going to do it. Just know that, right? I mean, I write for actors all the time. It's just for them having someone in my mind as a placeholder. But I don't think if they're famous, unless they're the people actors in your apartment complex, then that's fine. And they're going to be in your movie, that's fine. But if you think if it's a star, they're not going to do it. So use them as a placeholder, as a template to give you as a muse. I do that as well, but I don't think I've ever written a role for someone. And they actually wound up taking itPhil Hudson:In the Tacoma FD spec that I wrote. I alluded to a famous actor who plays this type of person. I was like, just think this person. And the comment I got back, I was, oh, that was so helpful. And I know you have to be a bit careful with that because you don't want to, it can derail your script a bit.Michael Jamin:Actually, I want to take that back. We wrote an episode of Marin that we wrote it with Chet Hanks in mind, who's Tom Hanks' son. And we reached out to him and he took it. I got to say the guy killed it. He killed it. He was perfect and a really good actor.Phil Hudson:That's awesome. If you guys haven't seen Marin, go watch Marin. That show's incredible.Michael Jamin:That show's fun. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Is there anywhere to go see The Hidden? Because they were two pilots, right? There was the first pilot and thenMichael Jamin:It was a presentation, so it was only a few scenes. Got it. I don't know if I have it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I thought it was on Prime. I think I got it on Prime originally.Michael Jamin:Wow. Was part of what theyPhil Hudson:Were doing. I'll go check. I'll see if I still have it. But yeah, it was, it's just a great show. Just massive show. And I was at an influential time when I was just really learning this stuff at a deeper level. So just seeing it play out in really tight scenes with limited characters and justMichael Jamin:Amazing, amazing. That's what was so fun about that. And I tried, we wrote some one episode where there wasn't enough of a stakes, and it was the one on dead possum where he finds a dead possum.Phil Hudson:I love that episode. That's the one I think of every time.Michael Jamin:That was a good one. But the original draft didn't have the storyline of him apologizing to his dying stepfather, not stepfather, his dying. It was missing from that. And we turned that draft into the network, and they thought, she was like, there's nothing here. There's nothing. The story's not about anything. And I'm like, don't you get it? That's the whole thing. I was trying to pull a fast one on her. I was like, but it's like waiting for Gau. She's like, no, I'm not buying it. The studio exec. And she was right. And so we wound up talking, Seaver and I, pardon? We ended up talking about it. We came up with this storyline where when Mark was afraid to go under the house to get a dead possum, that's just enough. There's not enough there. There's not enough debate for a story. And so instead, we had a concurrent storyline where he was afraid to confront his dying Father-in-Law because Mark broke up with his daughter. And in so doing, he kind of destroyed, he, mark was a coward. He didn't want to apologize to his father-in-Law for that. And so it was really a symbol. So when Mark was afraid to go under the house to get the dead possum, but he was really afraid of, was apologizing to his father-in-Law, those stakes are much higher.And so those stories kind of work really nicely together, but that was not in the original draft. Yeah,Phil Hudson:That's a great episode. There's one of the biggest laughs I've ever had. I think it was like your, might've been your end of act two, your act two, bottom of Act two with the kid fromMichael Jamin:When he says,Phil Hudson:Yeah, I was molested himMichael Jamin:Some. I think that was Seavers line.Phil Hudson:It's just like,Michael Jamin:What?Phil Hudson:Not making light of that degree. It's just theMichael Jamin:Context ofPhil Hudson:It, the setting.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It was like, you shouldn't have said that. That'sPhil Hudson:Funny. Alright, Michael, there you go. There's a bonus episode for everybody.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we're not making light of it. It was just that the guy confessed to having been molested as good, but it was like, no, we weren't talking about any of this.Phil Hudson:And then they have to talk and he's having this breakdown where this realization of he's a coward, and then now he has to be a surrogate father and listen to this kid. He's talking about his assistant and it's just like, the timing is just excellent. You guys handled it well. It's not disparaging or mean-spirited at all. It's just great. That was aMichael Jamin:Funny one. Alright, everyone. Yeah. Come to my webinar. Go watch that episode of Marin Dead Possum.Phil Hudson:Awesome.Michael Jamin:If you can find it somewhere,Phil Hudson:Michael, anything you want these guys to do other than come to the webinar,Michael Jamin:There's that. I'll be dropping my book soon. A paper orchestra, if you want to know more about that, that'sPhil Hudson:Michaeljamin.com/book.Michael Jamin:Oh, is that what it is? It'll be book. Book. Okay. TherePhil Hudson:Are a couple pages. You got AP Orchestra touring, you've got an events page, you got this. So I figured that was the easiest way to get people to the page is michaelJamin.com/book.Michael Jamin:And so the book is a collection of personal essays. If you want to learn more about what it's like to actually be a writer in Hollywood, but that's not what it's about. It's really about the premise is what if the smallest, almost forgotten moments were the ones that shaped us most. And so in the end, I have a little bonus section of the book where I talk about, so I perform the book as well. And if you want to come see that seem, be on the road, go to michael jamin.com/upcoming. And at the end of every performance, I do a talk back where I talk to the audience and they ask questions. And so I decided at the end of the book, there should be something like that where I talk about, it's basically a virtual talk back, right? I'm preemptively answering questions that people have asked me that I think people found interesting about the writing process. So that'll be in the book as well. So a little bonus for those of you who are interested in learning about writing, that'll be the last chapter. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Great. And the live performance still great. It almost a year. I can't believe it was almost a year ago. And it still sits with me as a father. It still sits with me.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Thank you. I want to start performing again. That'll hopefully start in February or March or whatever. Once that book is out, we'll start performing again.Phil Hudson:Great. Cool. All right, Michael, anything else? Thank you.Michael Jamin:I think that's it. Get on the newsletter. We're rev revamping the newsletter. We've revamped the podcast so there's more stuff, but better,Phil Hudson:More better, better streamlined, a little bit easy to get around. It kind of outgrew itself. So we talked about that on episode 1 0 4. But yeah,Michael Jamin:We didn't know what this was going to turn into, so we had to evolve it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's a good spot. Great to be back on the podcast, Michael. Thanks for having me.Michael Jamin:Yeah, thank you Phil. Alright, until next time, keep writing everyone.So now we all know what The hell Michael Jamin's talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars@michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast Helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving Us a five star Review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of This, whatever the hell this is for Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And You can follow Phil Hudson on Social media @PhilAHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It Was Edited by Dallas Crane and music Was composed By Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have Excuses or you can have a Creative life, But you Can't have both. See you next Week.

Emily Cutler is a writer/producer known for Community, A.P. Bio, Fresh off the Boat, and The Michael J. Fox Show. Join Michael Jamin and Emily Cutler as they dive into her history as a stand-up comedian, improv actor, writer, and Co-Executive Producer.Show NotesEmily Cutler on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0193915/Emily Cutler on Twitter - https://twitter.com/cutleremilyFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TranscriptsEmily Cutler (00:00:00):You have to start from a place of, I'm really passionate about this. You know, a lot of times before a season when you go to sell something, you'll say, what are they looking for? Well, this network is looking for family, and this one wants workplace, and this one wants, you know, and so you try to go, okay, well, what do I ha? But you still have to come from some seed of something that makes you giggle or something that inspires you, or it's just gonna be flat, it's not gonna be good or original.Michael Jamin (00:00:25):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Michael Jamin (00:00:33):Hello everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another fantastic guest today. I'm starting to think that my listeners don't deserve me because I have so many great people on this podcast. And my next guest is no exception. Emily Cutler, all Bribery. Welcome. So let me go through your,Emily Cutler (00:00:52):Hello,Michael Jamin (00:00:53):Let me go through you from your credit so people know who you are. Just to refresh their me my memory. Okay. As well as you know, the people listening. So Emily has written for, I'm gonna just blow through some of your credits. They're really pretty impressive. Zoe. we we're gonna start with the start with the beginning. Zoe Duncan, Jack and Jane. Rude Awakening. Good Girls. Don't, I don't know how you got that one. Less than Perfect. That's a pretty good, pretty good show. Love Inc. Blue Collar tv, far Poolers, community Free Agents, atory, how to Live with Your Parents. The Michael J. Fox Show growing up, Fisher The Odd Couple. This is the one with Jack Klugman. No, not that one.Emily Cutler (00:01:35):? No. Tony Randall. It was, yeah. Yes, it wasMichael Jamin (00:01:39):AP Bio Bio and Fresh Off the Boat. You have a lot of, do you take your jobs based on the location of, you have a lot of jobs at with locations in them?Emily Cutler (00:01:49):No. And Oh, I thought you meant the location of where you're actually doing the writing in thatMichael Jamin (00:01:54):Case. Oh, no, we all do that. Emily Cutler (00:01:56):Closer to my house. Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:01:58):Yeah. Close to your house. So, man, thank you so much, Emily. Let's just start at the beginning, because you started as actually as an actor and you were, you were a local celebrity in la That's when I first found out about you. You were the host of Nine LineEmily Cutler (00:02:12):.Michael Jamin (00:02:13):You were started as aEmily Cutler (00:02:14):Comic Nine Line, which was a, a tiny ridiculous little show, interstitial show that came on between the Mory PO Show and the Jerry Springer show. I popped in and did a little terrible comedy,Michael Jamin (00:02:25):But we all knew about you. And you, so you started as a standup, right?Emily Cutler (00:02:29):A little bit. I was a very, I dated a lot of standups, so I did a tiny bit of standup, but I spent a lot of time in the clubs watching standups. Yes.Michael Jamin (00:02:38):But then how would you,Emily Cutler (00:02:39):About myself,Michael Jamin (00:02:40):So that, what was your goal then? Like when you moved out to la what was your goal? Did be a writer, an actor, or what? Standup No,Emily Cutler (00:02:46):Acting. Acting. I was an actor. I was on a, you may have seen me as the driving instructor on Beverly Hills. 9 0 2 10, the firstMichael Jamin (00:02:54):One. Now I, now I know the first one of those. The first one, . And then what made you decide to transition to, to writing?Emily Cutler (00:03:02):Well, it was really one of those things where I've, I've written all my life, I've written little books and songs and movies, just constantly writing. And so I decided I'll just write in my downtime from acting mm-hmm. . And as you know, you have an enormous amount of downtime from acting. So it, it, the writing just sort of took off and the acting was kind of, you know, it was not as fun. So I kept with the writing. Oh,Michael Jamin (00:03:26):Because the, the acting wasn't as fun in terms of waiting to get a job, you mean, or no. Did you Yes. What was notEmily Cutler (00:03:32):Fun? Going years without a job? Yes.Michael Jamin (00:03:34):Or, or was it just like being, like, is, was the acting not fun or like, the process of getting jobs not fun?Emily Cutler (00:03:41):The process of getting jobs. Right. The acting is great. I mean, it's just the, the business of acting is, you know, not for the faint of heart. And I was writing and it seemed to be taking off, and I enjoyed it so much. I figured why not do that? And then I don't have to lose, you know, 30 pounds and go to auditions in horrible heat andMichael Jamin (00:04:03):All that kinda stuff. Yeah. Came the ass. And then how did you, so how did you transition to getting your first gig? Like how did that work?Emily Cutler (00:04:09):I was doing a show, an improv show called The Dysfunctional Show at a little theater in Hollywood. AndMichael Jamin (00:04:17):Producers with aEmily Cutler (00:04:17):Comedy show and asked me and one other person Yeah. Okay. In, in in Hollywood and, and produced a lot of people came to see it. It was a very funny show. And they, they said, would you and one other guy who was the friend of mine in the show, like to write a pilot Oh, wow. For Brandon Tartikoff. Years and years ago, it was a, a funny pilot spoofing spoofing. It, it's about a, a network news host that, like a, a Ted Bull who falls on hard times and winds up getting a job in a small town. It's the only job he can get. And so and, and the lead in that actually was Matthew Perry's father, John Bennett Perry.Michael Jamin (00:04:59):Wait, so a little bit, I'm sorry. So they actually produced thisEmily Cutler (00:05:01):Pilot? Yeah, they made the pilot. It was a lot of comedians. It was very it wasn't like a, like a, it was more, it was a comedy sketch sort of show. It wasn't a sitcom or anything like that. And then from there, I wrote a movie for Jason Alexander, who I had met in the Dysfunctional show, which didn't end up getting made, but I got an agent from that. So it was a lot of sort of acting moments. This is pretty impressive. That led me into,Michael Jamin (00:05:34):So even, how did you get these industry types to sh I think so to show up to your, to your, you know, show your little, what was like a, it was like a 99 se seaEmily Cutler (00:05:41):Theater. It was a, it was a really tiny show, but all the people in it, it was Improvd, it was basically on a huge show. But Improvd and we were making fun of talk shows. And so a lot of comedians who were in the clubs would just stop by because it's, you know, for an hour and play a character on a panel. And you know, let's see. It was Bob Odenkirk, David Cross, Warren Hutcherson, Brian Regan. I mean, there was a, just a ton of comics who showed up to do this. Wow. And I think Jason Alexander knew someone in the show, and he was, he was a guest in the show. It was different every week cuz it was like a talk show. So different subject every week. And then you'd kind of get a character and then it was just improvd from there.Michael Jamin (00:06:22):See, you just made a really good case.Emily Cutler (00:06:24):It was just good exposure.Michael Jamin (00:06:26):It's because people ask me all the time, all, and I mean this, I know it sounds like I'm saying this, but like, like, do I have to move to Hollywood to make it in Hollywood? And like, you just made a really good case for like Yeah. Because this is where it is. You know, you have to put yourself out there. Or do you disagree now?Emily Cutler (00:06:42):And I think that as a, as a writer, no, I completely agree. I think you have to be, it doesn't mean if you're a film writer and you wanna write a film in some other part of the country, eventually you will have to come here to have meetings or, I mean, now with Zoom, maybe it's not as difficult, but you just wanna be around people. You wanna meet people that can either help you or advise you or influence you in some positive way. And so I would say if you're really serious about writing for TV and film, you should think about coming to LA for a while. Maybe not forever, but for a while.Michael Jamin (00:07:15):Right. For sure. And yeah. And you, now you, so you've been here, you've been here, what, when you right after college, you moved, you moved here, right? Or did you do something before?Emily Cutler (00:07:22):Oh my God, I, no, I went to New York first. I went to New York cuz I was gonna be a serious theater actress. Really? And then I quickly gave that up and, and came toMichael Jamin (00:07:30):LA Yeah. But why, what was that like?Emily Cutler (00:07:32):Well, I came to act, I was kind of like theaters, tons of people in LA and I wound up getting an agent, a musical agent. I had to sting for them. And they said, come out to la we need funny women. Yeah. And so I came out and then just never left.Michael Jamin (00:07:50):And funny women are in demand. I'mEmily Cutler (00:07:51):Contemplating leaving there, there are funny women. I heard there weren't any Yes.Michael Jamin (00:07:57):No, but I'm saying they're, they're in demand. Sar I mean, like, if you're a funny woman, you'll work, you'll, you know, show yourself.Emily Cutler (00:08:03):There are a lot of fu funny women. There are a lot of funny women who don't work. They're funny women who do work, but they're an enormous amount of funny women. Yes.Michael Jamin (00:08:11):Yeah. And so, wait, did you, at some point, were you joking? Did you want to turn around and and leave LAEmily Cutler (00:08:16):No, I'm, I'm thinking about that now because A, we have a strike coming and b I wanna live in an enormous house with just a staff of people to wait on me hand in foot. So I figure I'll go to a small town and just buy a small town. AndMichael Jamin (00:08:31):Where would you go, how that goes? I know you're, I know you're, I know you're being facetious, but where, I don'tEmily Cutler (00:08:36):Know. That's why I never go anywhere. I, you don't, I do, I think, you know, after my kids to college, where could I settle down that wouldn't be as, you know, wouldn't be a big city. And I'd have my neighbors and I would be close friends and we'd all get together at barbecue and walk down to a beach and there'd be no crime and all of this. And then I realized there isn't that place. Or if there is, I don't know what it is.Michael Jamin (00:09:03):So that's lazy. You're not going any further than that. You're not really isEmily Cutler (00:09:06):Too lazy. Cause then I'd have to move. I'd have to call people.Michael Jamin (00:09:09):I'm, I'm trying to figure out. No,Emily Cutler (00:09:11):I, I I, I, I, I don't need, I don't think I'm leaving my house. Oh, okay. No, I'm not serious. I, I, I could leave Uhhuh , but it would require paperwork and phone calls and faxing and, you know, does your husband,Michael Jamin (00:09:25):Does your husband feel the sameEmily Cutler (00:09:26):Way talking to others? And I just can't do any of that.Michael Jamin (00:09:29):Does your husband feel the same way? MyEmily Cutler (00:09:30):Husband was born and Ray will never, never leave.Michael Jamin (00:09:35):He'll never leave forever. Right. So he loves it here. Okay. Okay. Now, but you're in Angelo now you're saying I,Emily Cutler (00:09:40):I'm seriously doubting itMichael Jamin (00:09:42):Now. I wanna know I guess of all your credits, maybe the, maybe the highest, you've had some high profile shows, but maybe the most beloved one is community. What do you think is that the one people wanna know about?Emily Cutler (00:09:52):Probably tell us. People are obsessed with that show and they're still obsessed much. I mean, I know it's airing now. It was on Netflix for a while. I wonder if it's still on Netflix. I and it's on the planes. It's on people are, are very we have great fans for community. Yeah. AndMichael Jamin (00:10:09):What was it like working on that show? Because it seems really hard. So it's a hard show to write for. It seems.Emily Cutler (00:10:14):It was a wonderful and nightmarish pool of madness and joy. It was Why the best of times and the worst of times. Well, the show creatively was absolutely wonderful. There was a lot of freedom. The characters were great, the actors were great. The writers were great. Dan Harmon, who was running the show was incredibly brilliant and interesting and strange. The hours were insane. And I had two young, young children at the time, and I was often there overnight. You know, I had my toothbrush and blankets in an office. So that wasn't ideal. if you're a parent or if you have a, a life outside of the show.Michael Jamin (00:10:58):But why was it, what, what was, was he taught? Who was someone tossing on scripts? Were they, what was, why was it so late?Emily Cutler (00:11:05):Have you been on, have you not been on a show where you've had hours like that?Michael Jamin (00:11:09):It's notEmily Cutler (00:11:10):YourMichael Jamin (00:11:11):Not real, like just shoot me. We would work. We had a couple nights where we worked till four in the morning. But that's only cuz like, there was something blew up. There was a script was, you know, thrown out. Right? OfEmily Cutler (00:11:19):Course. OfMichael Jamin (00:11:20):Course. But it wasn't a regular day and it'sEmily Cutler (00:11:21):Normal to stay late sometimes. This was, I think that not all artists are good at running a show are good at time management and managing. I think that's a different skillset. And Dan Harmon was really brilliant at writing and creating and everything except time management and not overthinking things and really understanding to respect other people's time. I think you would say that as well. Yes. SeeMichael Jamin (00:11:55):That's the thing.Emily Cutler (00:11:56):You're kinda in his mind. You're in the showrunner's mind when you're on a show. And if it's really messy in there and disorganized Yeah. The show will be too.Michael Jamin (00:12:05):People don't realize that is that no one becomes a, a commentator cuz they want go into management. They become comment commenters so they don't have to go into management. Yes. Then they get a job where they're running, they're managing people and it's a different skillset. AndEmily Cutler (00:12:18):Yes. And a lot of people, I have talked to writers when I say, do you want your own show? They say, I wanna write my own show and I wanna see it happen. But the thought of having to do that massive amount of work mm-hmm. in meetings and executives and storyboards. It's just, it's can be really overwhelming. It's not the writing part that you signed up for. It's a whole different thing.Michael Jamin (00:12:39):Even the writing part is a i people say I wanna be a show winner. You're saying that only cuz you don't know what a show winner does. Right. You know? Yeah. It's it's funny, I had Steven Kel on a while ago. He kind of said the same thing. He was like, you know, it's, you're, it's tankless comes the show. It's, and yeah. Yeah. I we were, same thing when we were running shows before we started running shows. It's like, I could do this and then you do it like, oh my god, what did I sign up for?Emily Cutler (00:13:04):And why do I want to do this? The fun part is being in the writer's room and creating things. And I don't wanna be, you knowMichael Jamin (00:13:10):Yeah. FiguringEmily Cutler (00:13:10):Out what type of ice cube you're gonna use in this scene. I mean, there's, you know, some people love that, but it is a different, I wouldn't say that writers necessarily naturally have that skillset.Michael Jamin (00:13:22):Yeah. And, and so, okay. So that's a good enough reason to be, that's bad for morale too. Yes. Especially when you got two kids. You wanna be home, you don't wanna live there.Emily Cutler (00:13:32):But also, if it's a show I created, I'm much more likely to wanna get into the minutiae of things and do that job. I, I never understand what a showrunner takes over a show that they didn't create. Mm-Hmm. , maybe they don't even love the show, but they take the job and just do such a massive amount of work for something that's not reallyMichael Jamin (00:13:50):Yeah.Emily Cutler (00:13:51):Giving them the joy or satisfaction of their own creation.Michael Jamin (00:13:55):And then what then was like maybe your favorite show that you just loved every second of being on and often it's not the most often, it's not the show, the people we even heard of.Emily Cutler (00:14:05):No, I I had a phenomenal time writing for Blue Collar tv, which was a sketch comedy show for Jeff Foxworthy and Bill Engal and Larry the cable guy. Right. all whose politics I do not agree with. However writing for it, it was just hilarious. I mean, it's wonderful if you, if you enjoy writing sketches, greatest group of people. We were all starting out and never done anything before. And we, we got to go down to Atlanta and produce it and see what people responded to and what they didn't. Different kinds of comedy. And it was just fun and silly. It was silly. We got to be silly, you know, all day.Michael Jamin (00:14:44):But then tell me about writing than sketches because you need a whole separate packet you didn't make. Yes. It's a whole different skillset. Like,Emily Cutler (00:14:51):It's completely different. But I came up doing that as an actor with friends. We did a lot of sketch comedy and we wrote for sketch comedy groups. So that was in my wheelhouse. And also, it's not as, it's not as daunting. It's not 30 pages, it's not 50 pages. It's like, Hey, I just have to write three funny pages that have a beginning, middle, and an end. I can do that. You know, but it's,Michael Jamin (00:15:13):When you're, it's all premise. You have to come up with a premise that's funny on its own. The, the one liner has to be, and, and then you have to establish these characters in 30, not even, whatever, 15 seconds and then go, you know. And alsoEmily Cutler (00:15:26):I'm kind of picky. Like, I don't like sketches that just ramble. Like when you have a funny character that has some kind of catchphrase mm-hmm. , it's not enough of a sketch for me to just have that funny character say that catchphrase over and over and everyone like, like I really do believe in building a little story and having it end in a satisfying way. So that, that is challenging. DoMichael Jamin (00:15:45):You do any sketch writing still?Emily Cutler (00:15:48):Oh God, I haven't done it in years.Michael Jamin (00:15:50):No, I haven't done it in years. So what is, is it your main Yeah. Narrative sitcoms. Are you, are you doing dramas as well? What are you doing?Emily Cutler (00:15:57):No, mostly sitcoms. A lot of single camera half hours. Mm-Hmm. .Michael Jamin (00:16:03):Do you prefer that for any reason?Emily Cutler (00:16:06):I always multi camera. I, I always prefer the one. I'm not doing . Yes. Whichever one I'm doing. I say, well, it's just cuz I'm doing this kind. I should go back to multi cams cuz I love them. And then I work on Multicam and go, why am I doing this? I should be writing a single cam.Michael Jamin (00:16:18):Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so funny. I mean, I feel the same exact way and I think we all do. I think it's like, eh, you know, when I, same thing with animation, I'd rather do live action. Whatever you're not doing is what you .Emily Cutler (00:16:29):I've never done animation though. I'm almost scared of it because it's so you can do so much. There's no, not as much structure. You can kind of just think outside the box, which I think is wonderful. But I'm also terrified.Michael Jamin (00:16:41):Take comfort knowing that it's not Writer's Guild. So , it's never covered by the Writer's Guild. So you'll make less money.Emily Cutler (00:16:48):So, so Simpsons and Family Guy, those shows must be, wellMichael Jamin (00:16:52):Simpsons and King of the Hill are, but the King of Hill didn't start as an writer's guild. But now whenever you sign, we've sold a bunch of animated shows and it's never writer. They, it's like it's a deal breaker. Nope. It's Aii. And so that'sEmily Cutler (00:17:07):So crazy because it's so much writing and so much work mm-hmm. Michael Jamin (00:17:10):Because,Emily Cutler (00:17:11):And so much thought goes into itMichael Jamin (00:17:12):Seems illegal to me because they can, the studios get to choose which guild, which you can be covered by Aii or Writers Guild. And you always choose writers guild, but they say II cuz you, they can pay you left. It's like, well how is that legal? I don't understand what,Emily Cutler (00:17:24):That doesn't seem fair. Yeah. You know what we should do Michael? We should go on strike.Michael Jamin (00:17:28):When, how about May 1st? What when you are you, I guess you're doing a lot of development now. Is that what you're, is that what your focus is on? What are you Yes. What are you up to? Yeah,Emily Cutler (00:17:37):I'm doing a some pilots. I have a pilot that I wrote with another person that's floating around. I have a pilot I just finished that's floating around. I have a pilot I'm supposed to do for that I haven't even pitched yet. And we're supposed to go on strike soon, soMichael Jamin (00:17:53):Sit backwards. Really. But when you say floating around, you mean you've written the script first and you're trying to sell it or what?Emily Cutler (00:17:58):Yes.Michael Jamin (00:17:59):Yes. And you like, you like doing that because usually we don'tEmily Cutler (00:18:01):Do that. Oh, the two that are floating around, then I have some that I'm supervising. No, I don't like doing that. It depends on if I have a, an idea that I feel I need to execute for someone to really get what it is, then I'll write it myself. But I'd much rather gee, I don't know, be paid to write it.Michael Jamin (00:18:20):So write to pitch it. Yes. And then you're supervis cuz even supervising. I'm not crazy about doing, but you're doing. ItEmily Cutler (00:18:25):Depends. I only supervise if it's a project that comes to me that I really, really love and can't say no to. Other than that I don't, I get offered a lot of jobs of, well you supervise this show about a young, you know, Chinese woman who has a dumpling factory and whatever crazy thing I get. Unless it's something that I go, that's hilarious, I wanna be a part of it. I just don't do it.Michael Jamin (00:18:51):And who, how are these coming to you through your agent?Emily Cutler (00:18:54):Random ways. Yeah. They kind of float to me through my agent or, or a writer will call me and say, I'm working on something. Would you be willing to supervise? You know, stuff like that.Michael Jamin (00:19:02):Oh, like a writer that you've, a young writer you've worked with in the past, you mean? Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Interesting, interesting. Yeah, because yeah, that's the thing. Go taking an idea out rather take the idea out than than, yeah. It's hard. It's hard out there.Emily Cutler (00:19:17):It is hard. And the thing is, and I it's, it's hard for writers who are, you know, a a lot are very introverted, is you have to sell something in a room to people mm-hmm. , which means you have to kind of come out of your shell a little bit and do a performance, a stale. And again, that's another skillset that I imagine as a lot of writers have to learn, you know. ButMichael Jamin (00:19:43):I imagine as an actor, that part probably comes easy to you.Emily Cutler (00:19:45):That is easy to me. And it's fun. I I like doing it. I don't mind doing it. Even when you get a very bad audience of people just not laughing and staring at you as if you've offended them and they hate you. Uhhuh I don't mind doing that. But there are a lot of writers who just, it's terrifying and they don't like it. And it's a whole new skill they have to learn, you know? Yeah. And be be warned before you move out to LA that if you wanna sell ideas to people, you will become a, a bit of a salesman and have to do a sales pitch. Mm-Hmm. .Michael Jamin (00:20:16):Now I'm skipping around here a little bit cause I have a lot of questions when I ask you, but when you, when you did the odd couple, you were briefing, is that the right word? A a show that's been on, there's been multiple variations of that show. Yes. And so what was that like? You know, actually he worked with yeah. What was that? Gary Marshall with Gary Marshall. He was in the room a lot, a little,Emily Cutler (00:20:36):He came to every taping. He came to the room for a while and then, I mean, he would just show up whenever he felt like it. But I think he came to every taping. He was wonderful. It was fascinating to sit with him and, and hear about his experiences because he's, well, so he would sit Hollywood, he would sitMichael Jamin (00:20:53):In the writer'sEmily Cutler (00:20:53):Room. Yeah. Yeah. And every time I saw him I would give him a kiss on the cheek. But I gave him a kiss every time I felt it was something I had to do.Michael Jamin (00:21:01):I mean, we grew up with all those shows. I mean, yes. I mean, was that, I mean, that's just such an honor, but did he give notes or was he just like, ah, holding courtEmily Cutler (00:21:10):A little bit of giving? No, he took it seriously. He wasn't there just for the hell of it. He, he took it seriously and he listened to all the jokes and he commented on things. But he didn't he didn't get in the way of anything. He wasn't in the writer's room that much. But he would send in jokes sometimes for scripts that he'd read, he'd sendMichael Jamin (00:21:29):In his pictures. Oh, really? Yeah. What's, what kind of story do you remember? Like what kind of stories? What was it like when he was in the room?Emily Cutler (00:21:36):His stories were a little more broad. They were of a different time. Sometimes it would be like a monkey gets loose in the apartment and both guys have to go and find who's gonna take the monkey. And you're like, well, maybe not that.Michael Jamin (00:21:49):But how do you say no to him? How do you say no to Gary Marshall? When did he,Emily Cutler (00:21:52):I don't think you do. I think you just say That's interesting. Yeah. We were thinking about this and he was very collaborative. Uhhuh . I mean, he didn't, there was no ego there that I saw. He was just happy to be there and be around writers and have the odd couple coming alive yet again.Michael Jamin (00:22:07):But, but I actually, what I really meant was like, did he, he must have told stories from his past, like, you know, working with I dunno, the Fonz or whatever.Emily Cutler (00:22:15):. Yes. And he also gave, this was a lesson I took from him that I will never forget. He said, don't make your work your life. Have a life uhhuh and work. And don't just work. Don't just, did you read,Michael Jamin (00:22:29):Did you read his book? Wake Me When It's funny.Emily Cutler (00:22:32):I remember. No, I never did. I never did. Oh,Michael Jamin (00:22:34):I remember reading that just before I was breaking into the business and it was just so, it was like, ah, I wanna work in that business. Like, it makes you wanna work in Hollywood. So, so it's like lovely. Yeah. But he tells a story, I think it was on the, the odd couple. They couldn't make a scene funny. Like he was like, it is missing something. So like, they give, like, I think the solution I'm getting, I'm sure I'm getting this, the character wrong, but it was like they, they gave Felix a big spoon or something, . He was like, give him a big spoon. And then it was funny.Emily Cutler (00:23:01):And, and also well yes, I think he told that story in the room too. give someone a prop. And often I think we did maybe give Matthew Perry a prop here and there to Uhhuh give him something to do. , didMichael Jamin (00:23:13):You guys watch, I mean we all saw the odd couple, but did you go back through old episodes and go, you know what, we can,Emily Cutler (00:23:19):We can do this again. I'd seen a lot of them. I'd seen a lot of them. I mean the premise is really about the two guys. About two mis mismatched roommates and how they get along in the world. So yeah, you can do that a variety of different ways. I was surprised, you know, when Matthew Perry wanted to play Oscar because I had sort of seen him in ay way. Yeah. But he wanted to playMichael Jamin (00:23:40):Oscar. Maybe that's why. And so what was it like working with him off of friends when he was at this biggest star in the, in the world?Emily Cutler (00:23:46):No, he wasn't right off of friends. Many, many years had gone by.Michael Jamin (00:23:50):Oh, was it?Emily Cutler (00:23:51):It was a learning experience. Oh. you know I've also worked with Chevy Chase. Yes. And these wereMichael Jamin (00:24:03):Difficult to have actors, , what were the subjects?Emily Cutler (00:24:07):These are guys who have super, super talented, amazing comic timing. Mm-Hmm. But maybe have not taken the best care of themselves so they're not able to do what they once were able to do. So that is always sad when you see that happen. And it was just challenging to work with Matthew cuz he was not in the best at his best. He, I mean at hisMichael Jamin (00:24:30):Best he would probably, he's probably come out and said that a million times over since then. He saidEmily Cutler (00:24:34):That in his book. He apologized to the odd couple writers in his book.Michael Jamin (00:24:37):Oh, did he? HeEmily Cutler (00:24:38):Did interest. Wow. Because it was kind of, it was a little bit weekend at Bernie's.Michael Jamin (00:24:42):Yeah.Emily Cutler (00:24:43):So .Michael Jamin (00:24:44):Oh wow. JustEmily Cutler (00:24:45):Keeping him, him going.Michael Jamin (00:24:47):And he was an executive producer on the show.Emily Cutler (00:24:49):He was.Michael Jamin (00:24:50):Yes. A lot of people don't understand and that, and I, and I think you can count me as one of them. Like what more control, when an actor is an executive producer, they have more control, but to be honest, they have the same amount of control. Even when they're not, you can't force them to say something.Emily Cutler (00:25:05):Right.Michael Jamin (00:25:07):So you, you explain it to me.Emily Cutler (00:25:09):I also don't, when a, when an actor is an executive producer, it means they can see the cuts. Right. And they can say, cut, cut this joke or put this in and Right. Again, I don't know. That's that their strongest skillset. Right. Their, so I never think it's super helpful. There are some that are very smart and that mm-hmm. But I generally would leave that to the people who know more about that and leave the acting to the actors. Yeah. Generally would be my preference.Michael Jamin (00:25:35):Have you done, have you directed or have you, do you aspire to direct at all?Emily Cutler (00:25:39):Not at all. It's the strangest thing. Cuz I think I'm a bossy person. Uhhuh. . And I do, when I'm on set, know exactly what I want, but I'm not I don't think I'm visual enough to know exactly what a shot should look like. And then this, I just like the acting. I like working with the actors. That's what I like to do. So camera stuff is not myMichael Jamin (00:26:01):So you do that a lot. Are you often the writer on set?Emily Cutler (00:26:04):Yes. I enjoy being the writer on set. I feel like I can speak the language of an actor. So it's yes, and it's fun. And there's just a great sense of camaraderie and it's nice to get out of the writer's room and be on a set.Michael Jamin (00:26:18):But are you doing that for shows that that, are you doing that for shows that even that you don't write, you know, you're not the, the writer of that show? Or are you usually assigned? No,Emily Cutler (00:26:26):No, no. I have been assigned to set and I have mentored younger writers who've never been on a set before mm-hmm. . which is a really good thing to do because you don't wanna throw a younger writer on a set when they have no idea what they're doing. But you also wanna make sure that that younger writer is on a set so that they are learning and can move up the ladder really knowing what they'reMichael Jamin (00:26:44):Doing. And that brings us to the writer's strike, because that's not really happening. It's from where I'm sitting, it's not really happening anymore because these ri young writers for the mo well, I don't know, I haven't done a network show in so long, but on, on these cable, these low budget shows that I'm on, often you're just working on pre-production and then you, you're done. And so the writers aren't coming to set at all. There's, you know, no one's.Emily Cutler (00:27:06):And what's happening is writers are moving up. In my day you had to be a staff writer for a very long time. Mm-Hmm. before you got bumped up. I don't know if people know, but on a staff there are different levels. And each level has different job requirements. And what's happening is a staff writer will come in and write for a season and then move up so quickly. Mm-Hmm. maybe bump up a few levels to a producer, and then they're put on a set without having any idea what to do or what each person on the set does or what their role is. Yeah. and it's really important to teach people at the early stages every aspect of a television show. And no, that is not happening very often.Michael Jamin (00:27:50):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Michael Jamin (00:28:14):I see that as being really bad. Maybe you'll feel, I wonder how you feel for, for like, I don't know if there'll be multi-camera shows in the future because you, there's so much learning that you have to do and like, who, who's gonna be, there's no, you know, who, how are they learning this? There are no multi-camera shows anymore. Where, where's the, the pool of talent, you know? Yeah.Emily Cutler (00:28:35):I, I don't, I mean, I do a lot of mentoring through the Guild. You might do that too, where you work with writers. It's a good thing to do. You should do it. Yeah. you mentor younger writers who are new in the Guild, maybe they've had their first job, but that's about it. And you, they can ask you questions. Like, when I started, I didn't have anybody really to ask, what does this mean? Should, what, what does this person do on set? Where am I supposed to be? What, you know, what is the blow to a scene? I didn't know any of that stuff. Yeah. So I, I I kind of help them and give them a safe place to ask these questions, which is a, a it's great. It reminds me of all this stuff. Yeah. And and I get to be around fresh young hopefuls. So it's, it's a great thing to do. You know,Michael Jamin (00:29:21):You know, I remember one of the first times on set, you know, they give you the big director chair to sit and your name's in it. And then I remember like dragging it to the next shot and I got such dirty looks. Yes. Like, you don't touch that chair. That's a union job. . Yes. Like, that's a, all you do isEmily Cutler (00:29:36):To think, you feel like I don't belong here. What am I doing? I don't understand anything. You just nod lot and hope that no one will ask anything of you. But yeah, it's much kinder to send people to set feeling prepared and feeling like they have something to contribute instead of them just being terrified the entire time.Michael Jamin (00:29:52):So you may have already answered this question then. Like, how do you see the, how has the industry changed from your point of view since you've been in it?Emily Cutler (00:30:02):Well, it's changed a lot in, I mean, we're striking for certain reasons. Rooms are getting much smaller mm-hmm. it seems like there's more product out there, but for some reason jobs are hard to get mm-hmm. and there are sort of mandates on shows and mm-hmm. and there are fewer writers and there's shorter production time. Writers move up faster. That is something that happens. You don't have to be a staff writer for a long time before you move up the ladder. And I think that's, butMichael Jamin (00:30:33):I don't think that's a good thing, to be honest.Emily Cutler (00:30:34):I don't think that's a good thing. Okay. I, I don't, I don't know that you ha I don't believe in staff writers not getting paid for a script. Right. I think that's silly because they are writing and creating a product. They should be paid for it. Mm-Hmm. . But I do think that before you're bumped up another level, you should really have a lot of experience and know what's gonna be required at that second level and be able to deliver that.Michael Jamin (00:30:56):I actually think that that writers, I believe that was the guild's idea to protect young writers. And I think it failed actually. Like, I think the intention was if you don't have to pay 'em that way, that way they get to write a script and they learn. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And soEmily Cutler (00:31:11):That was, but they are still writing and some staff writers are just fantastic and write a perfectly terrific script and don't get paid for it. And I always found that. Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:31:19):Odd. Yeah. I I think that was like one of those things that backfired well meaning I could be wrong about that, but anyway, but, so yeah. That's how it's, that's how it's changed. What about selling shows, do you think? How's that changed for you?Emily Cutler (00:31:31):Well now they have, and I've never used one pitch decks where you're doing a whole visual presentation with your pitch. And I don't, I, I don't feel that's necessary. But a lot of studios like that mm-hmm. , it gives them an image in, in their mind of what you're going for. That's not,Michael Jamin (00:31:51):I always felt that was more for drama than spend comedy.Emily Cutler (00:31:56):I I think nowadays people will do it. They'll do it for comedy, they'll do it for drama. They'll, you know, show pictures of actors that they think would be good in the roles. And I don't find it necessary. But,Michael Jamin (00:32:10):And certainly whatever works, working with pods is probably a bigger thing now. Do you than it was like, there was a time you as a writer, you could just sell a TV show. You didn't have to have all these people attached to it to sell a show.Emily Cutler (00:32:22):Yes. And a lot of times when you do that, you, you get a lot of cooks in the kitchen. Mm-Hmm. . So the work that you start out with just starts to morph into something completely different than when you started. And I like, you know, for better or worse, I like a clear vision to a show. Mm-Hmm. where, you know, and I'm sure you've been working a lot in streaming and stuff like that, where it's someone's voice like a Mark Marinn or something, and it actually comes through onto the screen. You don't have to like it. Maybe it's terrible, but it's a clear perspective. And what happens when you have so many cooks in the kitchen is the perspective starts to get watered down. That's one thing that Dan Harmon simply didn't allow on community. He was very ballsy and was just like, this is what we're going to do. And the studio would say, no, no, you can't do that. And he would be like, yeah, okay. This is what we're going to do. So like it or hate it, it made it onto the screen as a singular vision of what that show shouldMichael Jamin (00:33:13):Be. And it shows. But that's so ballsy because there's two things. I think you kind of have to be kind of like a genius level to pull that off,Emily Cutler (00:33:22):Which I think Yes. Which he, which he is,Michael Jamin (00:33:23):He was, but also you have to have this no fucks given. Like, I I, I don't know many writers who would do that. YouEmily Cutler (00:33:29):Have to be a little crazy. Yeah. And he's a lot crazy. So it worked out well for him. He must also kind of, you know, felt like he was smarter than everyone in the room and probably was. Right. Which there are, there are many who think that, who aren't. And he just would talk them in circles and finally they just couldn't take talking anymore. So they let him do his thing. Then they fired him . Right. And they brought him back, which was absolutely insane. I've rarely heard of that happening. Yeah. And, and he just really held firm because he knew what the show was and said, this is what we wanna do, and if you don't wanna do it, let's just not do it. But this is how it's gonna go. And he just doubled down and did it.Michael Jamin (00:34:12):Where did he, what would you, you must know, what was his first job in the business that he, where did he learn from?Emily Cutler (00:34:18):He did a streaming, I think he had a channel, I can't remember what it, what it's called. Oh, people will know. Like Channel 24 or channel something that did a lot of a lot of internet stuff. And then I think his first job was on the Sarah Silverman show back when she, I think it was Comedy Central. I could be more about allMichael Jamin (00:34:37):Of this. Yeah. Sam Sterling did that.Emily Cutler (00:34:39):And they had, they did not get along. I don't think they were the right fit.Michael Jamin (00:34:43):Oh my God.Emily Cutler (00:34:44):And then I, he, I don't know, I think he went, actually went to community college and that community was based on his experienceMichael Jamin (00:34:52):Because I, I think that showrunners kind of, they, they learn how they're gonna do this kind of, they, from the first job they take, their first showrunner is the kind of the person they emulate, you know, and mm-hmm. , that's kinda the school you come out of. And if your first boss was organized, you'll be organized. And, you know,Emily Cutler (00:35:09):Not for me, my first real boss on a sitcom was absolutely out of his mind. And an just, just a, a, a monster human who did everything. I, I just sat there going, this can't be right. This can't be Hollywood. All writers cannot be doing what we were doing, which is sitting on the floor and being screamed out about paint colors for his bathroom. And he was just insane. So I was like, this can't, if this is how everything is run Hollywood, it was on a show called Movie Stars, which was Harry Hamlin's comedic opus and,Michael Jamin (00:35:47):And Wait, do you wanna say who the, who the writer is?Emily Cutler (00:35:49):Yes, I do. His name was We, Wayne Lemon, which already sounds kind of like a serial killer name. It's like a great character name Wayne Lemon. And he, I think he was the son of a Baptist preacher and had no sense of humor and told us that on the first day. He's like, I'm not funny. That's not what I do. I'm not funny. I was like, well, it's great that you're running a comedy then. Oh my God. And we, there were only two writers. He, he didn't want a staff, he wanted two baby writers. We and another writer named Bick Scahill, we had never done it before. And so we sat on the floor and we listened to him fight with his wife. He was really abusive. It was, it was a hilariously weird experience. But I remember thinking, this can't be how every show in Hollywood is run. So I did not learn how to run a show from him. I learned very much what I don't wanna do, which you can also learn from your showrunner.Michael Jamin (00:36:38):But I would've, I'm not joking, I probably would've thought this must be Hollywood. Like, I, I, I, I probably would've felt differently from you. Like, that might've scared me from ever working in Hollywood continuing. Well,Emily Cutler (00:36:49):I was terrified to say anything or ask anyone because you're always afraid when you start out that you're gonna be either discovered as a phony and fired. Yeah. Or you're, you just don't make waves. You don't stand up for yourself at all. Cuz you're like, if I say anything, I'll never work again. So we just sucked it up. But it wasn't until later when I got on a normal staff where people were saying that, I went, oh, okay. . That was not a normal experience.Michael Jamin (00:37:18):At what point, and I really mean this, like at what point in your career did you finally feel like, all right, I know how to do this job because it's not on day one. It's not.Emily Cutler (00:37:28):I'm not, I'm not sure. I I'm not sure I feel that way now. It it, it depends. There are shows that I go in and I feel like I got this. I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm fantastic. And then on the very next show, I feel the complete opposite. Why am I doing this? There's no point. I have no talent I should give up. I think all creative people maybe ride that rollercoaster a little bit of feeling like I've got something to offer. I have nothing to offer really. I mean, I, I bounce back. It depends on the show and it depends on if I really think I can capture the voice of something and do it justice. Like if I went to write on succession tomorrow, I'd probably be a little nervous. I'd be excited to do it. But I might go, God, I hope I live up to this thing. Or I hope I can get into the voices of these characters. And then there are some that it's just natural toMichael Jamin (00:38:18):You, but even in terms of like knowing how to break a story or when you go off on script and you look at that blank page, like, or you're turning in your writing your outline. Like there, there must have been a moment where you're like, okay, I think I know how to do this. Right. I mean, cuz like in the, honestly, it took me, it took years and years for me to have, okay, I think I know how to do that.Emily Cutler (00:38:37): Yes. I, I think it took years and years and I think I knew certain things. Well, I can craft a joke, but I don't know, can I, am I really good at story? You know, in meetings people always ask and people ask your agents, are you good at story? Right. Or are you good at jokes and you seem to have to be in one camp or the other. Right. I think is absolutely stupid. But I go back and forth. I mean, I still look at a blank page and, and feel a sense of, you know, excitement and fear at the same time. And am I gonna do this? Am I gonna blow this? And I do a little of both. Right. I've written some scripts and I'm like, wow, this really, I crapped the bed on this one. And Right. Some that I'm like, all right, this is pretty good.Michael Jamin (00:39:21):Do you do any writing that is not for for sale? Like just for yourself or a book or something on the side or anything?Emily Cutler (00:39:28):I draw a lot. So I do that on the side. I used to write songs. I've written some poems. Uhhuh . I'm trying to think of what else I've written. You know, I have a friend who does game shows and I, I help him with game shows a lot cuz that's super fun. And I have no, it's not my job so I don't have to panic and interesting worry about it. Right. Because that's a whole other that's a whole other, you know, crazy world. But that's really fun to doMichael Jamin (00:39:58):Because the minute you put, the minute you're doing it, it's your profession. Things change, you know, likeEmily Cutler (00:40:04):Absolutely.Michael Jamin (00:40:05):Right. Well what's your take on that?Emily Cutler (00:40:06):Well, I mean that's why I write some pilots myself that I'm not gonna sell is cuz I come up with an idea that brings me some level of joy or that I feel I have a handle on. Mm-Hmm. and have that feeling like you're talking about I can do this. Well if I can really do this, I should sit down and do it. And you know, it, it turns out well or it doesn't. But I do that for myself. Yes. Do I hope I'll sell it. Sure. Why, why wouldn't I? But I just get it out of myself. Right. Because it's a, an idea in my head. Just get it on paper if youMichael Jamin (00:40:36):Can, just to remind yourself why you like writing.Emily Cutler (00:40:40):Yes.Michael Jamin (00:40:40):Right. Have you saw Adam? Don't, I'm trying to remember. We've, we've written a, a handful of pilots on spec. I don't think we've sold any. I think the ones we've sold are always saw on pitches. Are you able to sell specs or are they just writing samples?Emily Cutler (00:40:55):No, it's always, it's always been really pitches. I can't think of a script I've sold, I sold a movie but never never on spec. On spec. Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:41:06):Sold them. How'd that go? What was that?Emily Cutler (00:41:09):, it was called Suddenly Yours. It was a test to see if I could write a romantic, a cheesy romantic comedy back when they made them like those great kind of formulaic mm-hmm romantic comedies that you see, you know, two of a year. And it got bought and then just nothing happened to it. It died because then Jennifer Lopez had a movie called Maiden Manhattan that was basically the same thing. And so, so funny that got made.Michael Jamin (00:41:32):That's so, cuz we did, we sold a movie on spec though. It was called Only Child. And then that got killed because they had a movie in development called Middle Child . And I dunnoEmily Cutler (00:41:43):If they had anything, that's all it changed. OfMichael Jamin (00:41:44):Course not. Other than the word child.Emily Cutler (00:41:46):Yes. My god. It's a, another movie with child in the title. We must only have one.Michael Jamin (00:41:51):But you must have had to do some rewrites on, but after you sold it, they probably wanted rewrites from you now.Emily Cutler (00:41:56):Yes. And I got rewritten by another writer too, Uhhuh, who changed it into something totally different. It was, it was like a fascinating thing to see. It became this different creature, this completely different entity with like little bits of my script in it.Michael Jamin (00:42:10):But because sometimes I hear more often than that people are like, I wanna, I wanna write movies. I'm like, what you YouTube superhero movies? Yeah. What what? Yeah. TvEmily Cutler (00:42:19):TV is movies now. There are no more movies for the most part. It's, you know, big blockbuster superhero movies. There are few little ones and a few ones like, you know, maybe a Matt Damon movie that will squeeze in, but really television's where it, where it's at. Right. With streaming and everything.Michael Jamin (00:42:36):Did you, but did you even, did you even enjoy the process of writing movies?Emily Cutler (00:42:41):I did.Michael Jamin (00:42:42):You did? I did. I did.Emily Cutler (00:42:43):But I was, I was younger and didn't know anything. It's great when you don't know anything and when you don't know what, how the business is structured and you just come from a creative place and put something on paper that brings you joy. Right. That's great. And as soon as you start getting paid for it and other people get involved, you can still have joy but it's a different kind. It's, it's not pure, you know, it's,Michael Jamin (00:43:08):Well the reason why I see it, cuz like when you, when you get a note on a TV script, all right. Even if it's a giant rewrite, it's still, it's, it's 30 minutes of television or whatever. 22 minutes of television. Yeah. If you could do a note on a, on a movie and maybe it's a free rewrite that you have to do, talk about 90 minute movie. That's a, like that that's a lot ofEmily Cutler (00:43:25):Work. Yes. That's a lot. And a string will, a string will get pulled. That seems like nothing to the person giving the note. But that to you completely unravels theMichael Jamin (00:43:33):Entire thing. Everything right? Yes. I was like, I don't know why, I don't know. I dunno why people wanna write movies so badly. I think it like be just an ego thing.Emily Cutler (00:43:41):Yes. There are a lot of pages to a movie so it is daunting. But again, if you have an idea inside of you and you can see where it's going and it just sort of comes out of you, it doesn't feel like work. It just feels great.Michael Jamin (00:43:54):No, obviously you mentor people, writers and the writers, young writers in the guild. So that means they've already sold something. They've already steered a a hurdle. Yeah.Emily Cutler (00:44:02):Some of them are doing much better than I am. .Michael Jamin (00:44:04):Oh really? They'reEmily Cutler (00:44:06):Skyrocketing. I'm like, I hope you gimme a job.Michael Jamin (00:44:08):Wow. but so what advice do you have for people who haven't even done gotten into the guild yet?Emily Cutler (00:44:15):Just keep, keep writing and keep, have an original voice and put stuff on paper.Michael Jamin (00:44:20):And where are you getting, where are you looking for your ideas? Where are you getting your ideas from?Emily Cutler (00:44:24):I try and get my ideas from my life or you know, a great way to get ideas. If you have a funny group of friends or a group of friends you hang out with and you're just sitting and shooting the shit with them and making each other laugh. A lot of ideas, great ideas come out of that. A lot of ideas come outta my marriage. I get a lot of ideas from my marriage, from my kids. I never wrote family shows. I was never interested in that kind of stuff. And now that I have a family that sort of inspires me. So look to your life. Look to your extended family. Look to your friends. I have a friend, my current pilot is about an open marriage cuz I have friends who are having an open marriage and I think it's just so hilarious and, and mortifying and ridiculous. And so I'm, I wrote a pilot about it,Michael Jamin (00:45:08):But no, but selling it, they always want to hear like, how are you the only writer who can write this? And so I see that's why I understand you're stealing from your family, but from your friends with the open marriage, even though it'd be fi are you at the mean, are you, are you prepared to answer that question? How are youEmily Cutler (00:45:23):Gonna answer? Yes, I am. How? Well I think you do have to personalize it because I think them having the open marriage caused my husband and I to have a discussion about could we ever, what would it look like? Were this just, you know, middle-aged suburban couple, like what is that gonna look like? So that pilot became about this really unlikely like coupled to do this kind of thing and what transpires because they choose to do it. So it would kind of be like, my husband and I made this decision to do this thing. Here's what happened and how it went wrong.Michael Jamin (00:45:56):Where, so that's interesting because you're prepared. So that's, you're smart. Cuz you knew going into a meeting, that's the question they're gonna ans ask you. And so Yeah. Yes.Emily Cutler (00:46:04):They want something from your personal experience. And the truth is, you can make it from your personal experience however you like. You can, it doesn't have to be, this is exactly my experience. I lived it, it can be, this is how watching somebody else experience else's experience affected me and made me think of this. And I, you can kind of weave your own tail.Michael Jamin (00:46:30):But are you, are you going into, when you come up with your ideas to pitch, are you, is your target to sell it? Are you always thinking like, well what are they buying? What's, what's my version? Or are you just like, this is what I got in the tank.Emily Cutler (00:46:41):I used to be, that's why I wrote that romantic comedy. I wanted to see if I can just, you know, churn out a pile of crap for someone who says we want a pile of crap. Right. And I could, but nothing great comes out of that. And I, I do do that because I panic about money and go, I have to sell this. And they wanna show about a, a flying dog, so I'll stick a flying dog in there. You do sometimes compromise, but nothing great is ever gonna come out of that. You have to start from a place of, I'm really passionate about this. You know, a lot of times before a season when you go to sell something, you'll say, what are they looking for? Mm-Hmm. , well, this network is looking for family and this one wants workplace, and this one wants, you know, and so you try to go, okay, well, what do I ha? But you still have to come from some seed of something that makes you giggle or something that inspires you, or it's just gonna be flat. It's gonna be good or original, IMichael Jamin (00:47:31):Think. And, and how much, when you're not on staff of a show, how, what is your, what does your writing schedule look like?Emily Cutler (00:47:37):Oh, you said writing schedule? Yeah. that, that implies that I'm an organizedMichael Jamin (00:47:43):Or So you don't have one healthyEmily Cutler (00:47:44):Human? No, I'm the worst I'm supposed to be writing. You'll always know when I'm supposed to be writing. My house will be clean. Yeah. I'll be cook cooking something. Maybe I learned to bake bread, you know, I buy a new mascara and I put it like, I just procrastinate. Yeah. Forever. I'm the least organized writer. Again. That is another skillset. Like my friends who went to really tough colleges who are writers, learned how to study, and in learning how to study, they also know how to write and budget their time. I think you're one of them. Didn't you go to some didn't. I went to some fancy some. You went to a fancy school. Okay. Well, I assume if you go to a fancy school like that, or, or grow up learning those skills from your parents or something, you know, how to manage time. I'm the worst at it, so don't be me. Right. Learn how to give yourself a schedule. Be the kind of person who does that. You know, I guess it's like going to the gym. I'm also the person who's like, what's your schedule for working out? Well, sometimes I go for a walk. Sometimes I sit on my ass. I just don't, I'm not as disciplined as I should be.Michael Jamin (00:48:50):Well, it's, I mean, it's easier for me. I have a writing partner, so it's like, we agree, you know? All right. We're, we're agreeing to meet today at 10 o'clock, but, so, andEmily Cutler (00:48:57):You and one pushes the other and goes, come on, we gotta, yeah. No, that would be great. I need to get, I need to get me one of those.Michael Jamin (00:49:04):Well have you written, but you've written projects with people. You have one right now? IEmily Cutler (00:49:06):Have. I've written, yes. And the one that I wrote the right now, one, she was great. She was super disciplined and would let me kind of, you know, I could just be funny and amusing and she'd be the workhorse. Mm-Hmm. . But then I had a partner we wrote some movies together where he was more dysfunctional than I was. Uhhuh . So we just, I'd say, let's not work. Let's go to Starbucks and get lattes instead. And he'd go, great. , . Instead of saying, no, we need to work. We need to, yeah. We were, we were not a good influence.Michael Jamin (00:49:36):And do you have a, what, what's your spot? Do you have a spot that you like to work in? Or are you wherever you take your laptop, wherever.Emily Cutler (00:49:43):It's much better. It's great. When I'm staffed on a show, when I'm staffed on a show, when I'm in the mindset, I like to work in my office there. Even if it's on something else. Cuz it just gets me in the mindset. My house where I have two children who are now teenagers, is like a war zone. It's really hard. I have an open house. There's, it's almost lofty in a way. So there's nowhere to go to hide. Oh. Or, or to work. So I really try and go out or I wait till they're at school and, you know, sneak in a room somewhere. But it's, it's, again, it's not, it's not orderly. I'm not in one place. I'm moving around andMichael Jamin (00:50:20):Interesting.Emily Cutler (00:50:21):Yes. Discipline. Discipline. Disciplined. Get some discipline.Michael Jamin (00:50:26):Then let me ask you one final question. I don't know if, I don't know if you can have an answer to this, but like, what gets you outta bed then? What, what is makes you excited to, for your, I don't know, toEmily Cutler (00:50:35):Run career or in life? Well,Michael Jamin (00:50:37):Let's, let's do both. Let's do both.Emily Cutler (00:50:41):What gets me outta my bed is my children. Mm-Hmm. , because they need to be taken places andMichael Jamin (00:50:48):You're the Uber driver.Emily Cutler (00:50:50):What makes me excited to write again is, and I mean this might just be me because I know a lot of writers like to sit alone in a cabin and write a book. To me that's deathly. For comedy, it's to be around people. Like even just talking to you now, it will spark something and, or make me feel like, you know, it's why people go to the gym because you're surrounded by other people doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing. Mm-Hmm. . And it helps you. So when I'm not on a staff, which is a very collaborative thing where you're in a room with a lot of funny people and I'm on my own, it's not as much fun. It's much harder to get out of bed and motivate. So talking to you is helpful. My husband's really funny, so I'll run ideas around with him. I'll call friends. For me, it helps me to be around other people who are doing what I'm doing, who are funny people. That's what helps me.Michael Jamin (00:51:44):DidEmily Cutler (00:51:44):That get inspired?Michael Jamin (00:51:45):So now that you mentioned it, did, did you find that intimidating in the, in your beginning of your c