Podcasts about allender center

This is the second half of Michael's conversation with Dr. Dan Allender, and it's the more personal of the two. Dan opens by talking about his mother, her death earlier that year, the borderline unpredictability, the way she triangulated him into a surrogate role he never asked for and couldn't escape. He shares it not as a confession but as a map: here is where the wound began, here is how long it took to see it clearly, here is what it cost and what it gave.From there, they talk about what the healing process actually looks like — not as a program, but as a decades-long practice of reading your own life with new eyes. Dan's closing answer is one of the most quietly powerful moments in ten years of this show: write your story, read it to someone, and then face the unsaid. The fear, he says, isn't really that we'll discover how broken we are. It's that we'll discover how beautiful we are.Support the showENGAGE THE RESTORING THE SOUL PODCAST:- Follow us on YouTube - Tweet us at @michaeljcusick and @PodcastRTS- Like us on Facebook- Follow us on Instagram & Twitter- Follow Michael on Twitter- Email us at info@restoringthesoul.com Thanks for listening!

What happens when trauma doesn't just wound your heart—but your experience of God? In this deeply thoughtful conversation, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen welcome therapist and author Colleen Ramser to discuss her remarkable new book, The Shattered Soul: Restoring Wholeness and Rebuilding Your Faith After Spiritual Trauma.  Rather than offering another conversation about "church hurt," Colleen invites us to consider something far more profound: spiritual trauma doesn't simply change what we believe. It changes how our bodies experience faith. Through her vision of the "somatic soul," she explores how trauma fragments us, leaving many people feeling disconnected from the God they once knew. Prayer can become frightening. Worship can feel empty. The very practices that once brought life can begin to feel unsafe, not because faith has disappeared, but because trauma has reshaped our relationship to it. Together, they explore why the question isn't whether you've deconstructed your faith. Trauma has already done that work of fragmentation. The invitation is toward reconstruction: patiently tending to the wounds that separate us from ourselves, from others, and from God. Along the way, they discuss the posture beneath spiritual abuse, the role of lament, and why healing begins by caring for the wound rather than debating whether it was "bad enough" to count. This is one of the richest conversations we've had on spiritual abuse and religious trauma, offering language, hope, and a deeply embodied vision of healing for anyone seeking to rebuild trust after their faith has been shattered. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org     

Sexual addiction is often treated as a behavior problem. Stop the behavior. Remove the temptation. Try harder next time. But what if the behavior is not the real issue? What if the patterns that bring shame, secrecy, and self-sabotage are actually revealing something deeper about the story you carry? This week on Win Today, therapist and researcher Jay Stringer joins me to unpack the anatomy of sexual addiction and unwanted sexual behavior. Drawing from research involving more than 3,800 men and women, Jay explains why these patterns are rarely random and how the unresolved parts of our past often shape them. We talk about why shame keeps people trapped in destructive cycles, why curiosity is often the first step toward healing, and why grief has the surprising power to reshape what we desire. Sexual struggles are not simply moral failures to suppress. They can become a roadmap that leads us toward the healing we have avoided. If you are stuck in patterns you cannot explain, if shame has kept you silent, or if you've tried to manage the behavior without understanding the story behind it, this episode will help you see why real freedom begins with honesty. Guest Bio Jay Stringer is a licensed therapist, minister, and researcher who helps men and women understand and outgrow unwanted sexual behaviors. He is the author of the award-winning book Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing, based on a multiyear research study involving more than 3,800 men and women exploring the roots of sexual addiction and compulsive sexual behavior. Jay is also the creator of the Sexual Behavior Self-Assessment and The Journey Course, a five-month program designed to help individuals identify and transform the deeper drivers behind destructive patterns. He holds an MDiv and a master's degree in counseling psychology from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and completed post-graduate training under Dr. Dan Allender while serving as a Senior Fellow at The Allender Center. Show Partner SafeSleeve designs a phone case that blocks up to 99% of harmful EMF radiation—so I'm not carrying that kind of exposure next to my body all day. It's sleek, durable, and most importantly, lab-tested by third parties. The results aren't hidden—they're published right on their site. And that matters because many so-called EMF blockers on the market either don't work or can't prove they do. We protect our hearts and minds—why wouldn't we protect our bodies too? Head to safesleevecases.com and use the code WINTODAY10 for 10% off your order. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my book "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

Dan Allender has spent thirty years doing work most people would rather not look at — and in this first of two conversations, he and Michael go there together. Dan is a psychologist, professor at The Seattle School, and the author of The Wounded Heart, among many others. Michael first encountered his work in 1989, at one of Dan's conferences, in a season when his own double life had just come undone. That history is present in every minute of this conversation.They talk about why sexual brokenness isn't a category that belongs only to people who've experienced abuse — it belongs to all of us. They explore what lust actually means: not just desire, but desire as relief and as revenge. They discuss the ways women bear the image of God differently than men, and what that has to do with misogyny and the #metoo movement. And Dan talks about shame not as the wound, but as the thing that — when we stop running from it — leads us back toward God.Part two continues the conversation.Support the showENGAGE THE RESTORING THE SOUL PODCAST:- Follow us on YouTube - Tweet us at @michaeljcusick and @PodcastRTS- Like us on Facebook- Follow us on Instagram & Twitter- Follow Michael on Twitter- Email us at info@restoringthesoul.com Thanks for listening!

What makes someone a good friend? We often think about showing up well for the people we love. But what if being a good friend also means learning how to receive care—and even extending that same compassion to ourselves? Dan and Rachael begin this conversation with a simple story about a bus ride that never happened. What unfolds is something bigger: Why is it so hard to ask for help? What keeps us pushing through pain instead of letting others care for us?  Together, they explore what faithful friendship looks like: friends who know our stories, tell us the truth with kindness, and lovingly interrupt the patterns that keep us isolated. They also consider how we can begin to offer ourselves that same honesty, tenderness, and care. As you listen, consider: What kind of friend have you become—to the people you love, and to yourself? *This episode contains some explicit language. Listener discretion is advised.   About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.   At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

Some people seem to enter the world with an unusual sensitivity. They notice what others miss. They feel deeply. They ask questions long before they have words for them. And while that can be a profound gift, it can also be an incredibly lonely way to grow up. This week, Dan and Rachael are joined by therapist, writer, and Noble Workshops founder Sam Eldredge for a deeply personal conversation about what it means to be an "old soul." Together, they explore the gifts and burdens of deep sensitivity, the loneliness of feeling "too much," and how our earliest stories continue to shape the way we move through the world. Along the way, Sam shares about his own journey through depression, the healing power of story, and the work that led him to create Noble Workshops—an immersive experience that helps people engage the younger parts of themselves, mind, body, and spirit. Whether you've always felt older than your years, struggled to find where you belong, or simply long for deeper connection, we hope this conversation offers a gentle invitation to become more at home in your own story. *Please note: This episode briefly mentions pregnancy loss and suicide and contains explicit language. Listener discretion is advised. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

Today's episode is dedicated to your questions! Recently, we invited our email subscribers to submit the questions they'd like Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen to explore on the podcast. Thank you to everyone who responded with such honesty, vulnerability, and courage. Hosted by Melissa Dowell from the Allender Center, this conversation explores questions about what healing really looks like, how to care for aging parents while honoring healthy boundaries, what to do when you feel stuck in your story, how to engage others' stories wisely, and how to navigate the complexities of family, faith, and trauma. We're deeply grateful for your questions and for the trust you continue to place in this community. If your question wasn't featured this time, stay tuned—we hope to continue these listener Q&A conversations in future episodes. Not on our email list yet? Sign up to receive podcast updates, resources, and future opportunities to submit your questions: https://theallendercenter.org/subscribe About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

What does true maturity actually look like? Is it age? Experience? Having the right answers? Many of us grew up assuming we would recognize maturity when we saw it. We looked to parents, pastors, leaders, and institutions to show us what it meant to be wise, trustworthy, and faithful. Yet over time, some of those assumptions have been challenged. People we admired have disappointed us. Systems we trusted have fallen short. And if we're honest, we've disappointed ourselves too. So where does that leave us? This week, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen wrestle with a different vision of maturity—one shaped less by certainty and control and more by truth-telling, curiosity, humility, and a growing orientation toward the heart of God. Drawing from Jeremiah's lament, Micah 6:8, and their own stories, they explore why maturity is often forged in the midst of struggle rather than certainty.  They also reflect on the gift of trustworthy companions. These are people who help us ask better questions, tell the truth about our lives, and remind us that growth was never meant to happen alone. After all, one of the clearest signs of maturity may be knowing when it's time to reach out to others. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

This week, Dan and Rachael sit down with survivor, advocate, and Narrative Focused Trauma Care alumni Kate Ouimette-Wedell for a conversation that is both heartbreaking and deeply hopeful. After moving to Los Angeles to pursue a career in music, Kate was trafficked and spent more than a decade in the commercial sex industry. In this episode, she shares part of her story with remarkable courage, offering insight into the realities of exploitation, the long road of recovery, and the resilience that makes healing possible. Together, they explore the power of story, the importance of being seen and believed, and why healing often begins when someone is willing to sit with us in our pain rather than rush to fix it. Through her own healing journey and her work with survivors through Cherished LA, Kate bears witness to a hope rooted in the belief that every person has immeasurable worth and that no story is beyond the reach of compassion, restoration, and delight. Please note: This episode includes discussions of human trafficking, sexual exploitation, abuse, and trauma. Listener discretion is advised. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.   At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

Faith, power, and politics have become deeply intertwined in our culture, leaving many Christians asking hard questions:  Is this what following Jesus is meant to look like? And how do we stay faithful when the way of Jesus seems so different from the voices claiming to speak for him? In this episode, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen welcome Rev. Rob Schenck back to the podcast for an honest conversation about power, discipleship, and the state of American Christianity. Together, they explore the difference between the way of Jesus and the pursuit of control, the cost of discipleship, and why humility, grief, and love matter more than ever. If you've felt confused, discouraged, or unsettled by the intersection of faith and politics, we hope this conversation offers both perspective and hope as we consider what it means to follow Jesus in a complicated time. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/

Is there still more to your story? It's a question that can feel surprising, especially if you've spent years reflecting on your past, pursuing healing, or engaging your story. Yet in this conversation, Dr. Dan Allender, Rachael Clinton Chen, and Wendell Moss explore how story continues to reveal new insights about who we are, how we've been shaped, and how God is meeting us in the present. You'll get a glimpse into what story work actually looks like in a Story Workshop or Narrative Focused Trauma Care® training, and why returning to meaningful moments from our lives can open the door to greater compassion, deeper understanding, and unexpected freedom. Whether you're new to story engagement or have been doing this work for years, you're invited to consider what might still be waiting for you in your story.  Listener Resources: Download our free guide, How to Engage Your Story: http://theallendercenter.org/story  Learn more about Narrative Focused Trauma Care® (NFTC) Training: https://theallendercenter.org/trainings  Engage your story in a Story Workshop with the Allender Center: http://theallendercenter.org/workshops  Work with an individual trained in NFTC: http://theallendercenter.org/directory  About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org     

What happens when shame takes root in a story? And how does contempt become one of the ways we learn to survive it? Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen explore the complicated relationship between shame and contempt, and why understanding these dynamics matters so deeply for healing and human connection. Shame can leave us feeling exposed, powerless, defective, or alone. And contempt often emerges as a strategy of protection: through self-criticism, defensiveness, withdrawal, rage, sarcasm, superiority, or humiliation. You'll hear reflections on: why contempt often forms in response to pain and powerlessness what trauma responses like fight, flight, freeze, and fawn look like in moments of shame how to remain grounded in dignity and belovedness when faced with contempt This conversation invites us into deeper curiosity, compassion, and discernment — especially in a cultural moment increasingly marked by outrage, dehumanization, and contempt. If you'd like to explore these themes more deeply, we invite you to join Rachael Clinton Chen for the upcoming live training, The Art of Story Engagement, on June 13. Together, you'll explore more deeply how contempt shapes our stories — and how learning to recognize these dynamics in ourselves and others can open the door to greater wisdom, healing, and care. You can learn more at theallendercenter.org/events   About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/   If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org  *This episode contains some explicit language. Listener discretion is advised.

Have you ever felt like you were living between worlds? Maybe you've moved across countries or cultures. Maybe your family story carries immigration, missionary work, military life, trauma, loss, or displacement. Or maybe, even surrounded by familiar people and places, you still carry an ache for belonging — a longing to feel fully known, rooted, and at home. Today, Dan and Rachael sit down with Esperansita Bejnarowicz, who is a story coach, an NFTC Certified Facilitator with the Allender Center, and the founder of Far From Home.  Together, they explore the hidden grief, loneliness, and longing that can come from living "far from home" — geographically, emotionally, spiritually, and relationally. Esperansita reflects on the experience of living between identities, cultures, languages, expectations, and communities, and the ways these in-between spaces can leave us carrying forms of grief that often go unseen or unnamed.  The conversation also considers the story of Jesus as someone deeply acquainted with displacement: a child forced to flee, a man who "had no place to lay his head," and someone who understood sorrow, exile, and longing for home. Through her own story and the stories of women she now serves through Far From Home, Esperansita offers language for the ache of leaving home, the complexity of belonging nowhere and everywhere at once, and the loneliness that can exist even when life appears beautiful from the outside. Whether you've crossed borders or simply know what it feels like to search for belonging, this conversation offers language, comfort, and hope for the parts of us still longing to find home. You can learn more about Far From Home at: https://www.womenfarfromhome.org/    About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

How do we live faithfully in a world where stories no longer seem to anchor us to a shared reality? Returning to the Allender Center Podcast, Pastor James A. White joins Dan and Rachael to wrestle with the confusion, distortion that shape our cultural moments, both past and present.  Together, they explore the idea of "story wars"—the deeply human tendency to create narratives that help us survive, but can also estrange us from truth, one another, and the heart of God. At the center of the conversation is the resurrection story itself: a story so disruptive and improbable that even Jesus' closest companions struggled to believe it. And yet, the resurrection is precisely what recalibrates reality. Not because it erases suffering or uncertainty, but because it offers a new way of seeing: that even in places marked by grief, confusion, fear, or loss, hope and transformation are still possible. This conversation invites us to examine the stories shaping us personally and collectively, and to ask difficult but necessary questions about truth, power, fear, belonging, and hope. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org     

Welcome back to the second half of this powerful conversation with Jay Stringer. Building on the foundation of his book, "Desire,"Jay moves us deeper into one of the most provocative ideas of the conversation: Sometimes our desires must disrupt and even destroy something in order to make way for something more true. This isn't destruction for destruction's sake. Iconoclasm is the breaking of false structures, identities, and "provisional selves" that no longer serve us. And as Jay explores, when we don't have wise guides or meaningful rites of passage, that disruption often shows up as self-sabotage—affairs, addictions, burnout, or relational breakdown. But instead of dismissing those moments as failure, Jay invites us to see them as honest signals—clues pointing back to our story, our unmet longings, and the deeper work our soul is trying to initiate. Listen in to a conversation that is rich with story and grounded in research as they also explore: why community is essential for making sense of our desires (and why we can't do this work alone) how to interrogate your desires in a healthy, curious way—not with shame, but with wisdom and how our desires are often shaped by forces we don't even realize, yet can be reshaped over time Desire has the power to both build and break. The question is not whether disruption will come—but whether we'll have the courage, support, and curiosity to let it lead us somewhere good. Order your copy of Jay's new book, "Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow," now at: https://jay-stringer.com/books/ About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org     

What if desire isn't something to suppress or fear, but something to honor and steward? In this two-part conversation, therapist and author Jay Stringer joins Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen to explore that very question through the lens of his new book, "Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow." From the very beginning, it was clear this topic couldn't be contained in a single episode. Dan arrived with 16 pages of notes—so settle in for a deep, expansive conversation that unfolds across the next two weeks. In Part 1, Jay traces the long personal and clinical journey behind Desire, opening up a deeper question beneath the surface of struggle and behavior: how do we learn to want well? You'll hear: Why desire often feels like a "civil war" within us How your family of origin can shape what you long for (and what you may have denied) The concept of the "provisional self"—and how it can both help and hinder you Why some of the patterns you want to escape may actually be clues to deeper healing Through personal stories, clinical insight, and thoughtful reflection, this conversation invites you to get curious about your desires—not to judge them, but to understand where they come from and where they're leading you. Be sure to come back next week as Jay re-joins us to explore the disruptive role of desire, the courage it takes to engage it, and how to grow it within the context of community. In the meantime, you can order your copy of Jay Stringer's newest book, "Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow" today:  https://jay-stringer.com/books/  About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.   At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.   Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast   To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org

We've all been there. When quickly a "just checking something" moment turns into 20 minutes lost scrolling. How hard it is to stay present with the people right in front of us. And how confusing it can be to guide our kids through a world we didn't grow up in. In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen sit down with Dawn Wible, founder of Talk More. Tech Less., to name what many of us are wrestling with. Technology isn't just a tool; it's shaping our attention, our relationships, and even our capacity for connection. You'll also hear about how to approach some of the harder truths many families are facing today, including online exploitation risks, and why open, shame-free conversations at home matter more than ever. If you've ever felt the pull of your phone, the frustration of setting boundaries, or the ache of disconnection with your loved ones, you're not alone.  We invite you to listen to the full episode to hear practical insights for you and your family. And be sure to check the show notes for resources from Talk More. Tech Less., including their free guides to help you take small, meaningful steps toward healthier tech use. Listener Resources from Talk More. Tech Less.: Pre-Order the TMTL 30-Day Program: https://www.talkmoretechless.com/shop/talk-more-tech-less-30-day-program   Download free educational Prevention One-Pagers: https://fairplayforkids.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/ActionKitCombined.pdf    About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org     

Christa sits down with Dr. Dan Allender and Dr. Steve Call, longtime therapists, professors, relationship theorists and practitioners, and authors of The Deep-Rooted Marriage: Cultivating Intimacy, Healing, and Delight, for a powerful conversation about trauma-informed couples therapy through the lens of The Narrative Focused Trauma Care® (NFTC) Model Dan Allender created. Here in this juicy and deep diving episode, Dan and Steve explain how the stories of our past drift into the present and create friction in our marriages - and why not stuffing the stories, but understanding those stories is the key to transformation. They break down why we fight the way we fight, how to address past trauma with courage and compassion, and how to disrupt cycles of conflict based on shame, judgment, and resentment, even those in place since childhood. With over 70 years of combined therapeutic experience, Dan and Steve offer hope that marriage can be more than just "getting along" - it can be a place of healing, intimacy, and genuine delight - their truest motivation for sharing with us. If you're stuck in repeating patterns, wondering why the same fights keep happening, or looking for a way to write a new story for your marriage, this conversation will meet you exactly where you are. Watch on YouTube!! Find Steve and Dan's work on Narrative Focused Trauma Care at Allender Center here! https://theallendercenter.org/about/nftc/ Find Steve and Lisa's couples intensive work at the Reconnect Institute here! https://www.thereconnectinstitute.com/ Find the book, Deep-Rooted Marriage here! https://online.theallendercenter.org/courses/growing-in-marriage-series?coupon=GROWING30 Find the $99 course mentioned on the pod here! Use the code enneagram30 if the discount does not appear! https://online.theallendercenter.org/courses/growing-in-marriage-series?coupon=GROWING30 Find more about your type, the pod, freebies, and SO much more at our website right here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.EnneagramandMarriage.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Love what you're learning on E + M? Make sure you leave us a podcast review so others can find us, too⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Christa's Best-Selling Book, The Enneagram in Marriage, here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://a.co/d/df8SxVx Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Nearly everyone has a story of medical trauma, whether it's a surgery, a frightening diagnosis, chronic pain, a difficult birth, a long wait for answers, or even the seemingly-subtle experience of being dismissed in a clinical setting.  These moments may not always be labeled as "trauma," but they often leave a mark on our bodies, our relationships, and our sense of safety. In this episode of the Allender Center podcast, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen sit down with Dr. James "Jim" Jackson, a leading expert in neuropsychology, long COVID, and survivorship care, to explore what it means to recognize and heal from medical trauma in all its forms. The conversation opens up the often-overlooked reality that medical experiences don't just end when treatment ends. They can shape anxiety, trust, avoidance of care, and the emotional lives of entire families.  If you found this conversation helpful, we recommend checking out Dr. James Jackson's new book, "Reclaiming Your Life from Medical Trauma." It extends the discussion much further, offering practical guidance for patients, caregivers, and clinicians who want to better understand the emotional and physiological aftermath of medical care and how to move forward with greater care. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.   At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.   Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast   To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/   If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

What if the ways we've learned to live with food and our bodies could begin to make sense—and even soften—when seen through a deeper, more compassionate understanding of our story? In Part 2 of this series, Stasi and Diane Summers continue their conversation on food and the body as they explore the impact of our early years. As shame is named and grace is invited in, a more grounded and accepting way forward begins to unfold. We hope this conversation leaves you feeling encouraged, blessed by mercy, and hopeful for the goodness that is ahead.…..SHOW NOTES:…..If you haven't listened to Part 1 — E118 | Food and Our Bodies: Learning to Live in Kindness — you can do so here: YouTube: https://wahe.art/4clbkB7Wild at Heart App:  https://wahe.art/4cad3ugVERSES: John 8:32 (NIV) – Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free…..DIANE SUMMERSWebsite: HopeNutritionTherapy.comContact: diane@hopenutritiontherapy.com  — If you tried to reach out to Diane after Part 1 and didn't hear back, her contact form was down. Please try again—she doesn't want to miss you. BIODiane Summers, MS, RDN has had the immense privilege of providing nutrition therapy for folks from all walks of life as they heal from the full spectrum of eating concerns and struggles, to include but not limited to severe eating disorders, chronic dieting and weight cycling, and orthorexia. She has a private practice, Hope Nutrition Therapy, and works virtually with clients all over the world. She has done this work for 22 years and absolutely loves it, as it's an incredible joy to show up for her clients and journey alongside them as they seek healing, freedom, and peace. Diane attends a neighborhood based church, serving on the board and occasionally preaching. She is a believer that we heal in the context of relationship and community. In her free time, you will find her exploring the Pacific Northwest beaches during low tide and geeking out on sea creatures, enjoying coffee from a local shop, traveling to see friends and family, leading Story Workshop and Narrative Focused Trauma Care groups with The Allender Center, dining out on delicious food, hosting friends in her home, hitting the ski slopes, or prepping for her soon to arrive golden retriever puppy who will hopefully become a therapy dog in her practice one day.Diane's Podcast Appearances:The Allender Center Podcast — Food & Body Series https://theallendercenter.org/category/podcast/food-and-body/The Allender Center Podcast — Food Insecurity: https://theallendercenter.org/2023/11/food-insecurity/Life Unrestricted: EP 32 – There is hope for healing and achieving a life free from body issues https://open.spotify.com/episode/5Sv77OBYNMiOQnJ8AuiM2mImpossible Beauty Podcast — Lent, Fasting, & Diet Culture: https://www.impossible-beauty.com/podcast/lent-fasting-and-diet-culture…..ADDITIONAL RESOURCESHealth At Every Size: The Surprising Truth About Your Weight by Linda Baconhttps://www.amazon.com/Health-At-Every-Size-Surprising/dp/1935618253/ref=sr_1_1Association for Size Diversity and Health (ASDAH) — An organization promoting Health at Every Size® principles and inclusive, weight-neutral care. https://asdah.orgResearch:  https://www.intuitiveeating.org/studies/Substack: https://weightandhealthcare.substack.com/…..Don't Miss Out on the Next Episode—Subscribe for FreeSubscribe using your favorite podcast app:YouTube – https://wahe.art/4h8DelLSpotify Podcasts – https://wahe.art/496zdfnApple Podcasts – https://apple.co/42E0oZ1 Amazon Music & Audible – https://amzn.to/3M9u6hJ

This week, Dan and Rachael sit down with therapist, trauma care specialist, and NFTC® Alumni Tabitha Westbrook for a tender and important conversation on healthy sexuality after abuse. In a space where many questions remain unspoken, this episode brings language to the shame, confusion, and longing so many carry in silence. With honesty and depth, their conversation offers a grounded invitation toward healing, one that honors the complexity of your story and the goodness of your body. This episode engages the topic of sexual abuse and sexuality, and includes mature language. Listener discretion is advised. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

We all know what it feels like to scapegoat—or to be scapegoated. To shift blame, protect ourselves, and make someone else carry what feels too heavy to hold. So what does that have to do with Good Friday? In this episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Mako Nagasawa helps us see that what we call "scapegoating" today is actually a distortion of its original biblical meaning. Looking at Leviticus 16, he explains that the scapegoat was never about blaming or punishing a substitute, but about removing what didn't belong. A way of naming that the problem isn't who we are, but what has taken hold within us. But over time, we've changed that meaning, looking for others to carry the blame instead of facing what's broken in us. This episode invites us to see the cross differently. Rather than reinforcing blame and punishment, Jesus steps into our cycle of scapegoating to break it, revealing a God who is not looking for someone to punish, but is committed to restoring what's broken. This is the hope of Good Friday: not a story of blame, but the beginning of restoration. Special Offer for our Listeners: "Scapegoating as a Spiritual Formation Problem:" A free, four-week discussion group led by Mako Nagasawa with The Anástasis Center. Explore how Penal Substitutionary Atonement theology encourages people to accept arbitrary authority and deploy harsh retributive justice. Explore how Medical Substitutionary Atonement theology from Early and Eastern Christianity can heal our souls, relationships, and public witness. Enroll for free (with donations) at: https://anastasiscourses.thinkific.com/courses/scapegoating  About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast  To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

Danielle “When it comes to defending my kids, my husband, my community, my family members—even if I don't like you and I thought it was unjust—I could really step in and kick some ass. But when it comes to myself, the shutdown is so strong. I almost want to fall asleep.”   Rebecca “There's a reason why you can be so passionate about justice—because you know what unjust feels like and looks like and sounds like. Whatever we have to do to survive that stays with us. And we can simultaneously say, ‘I won't ever stand by and watch somebody I love feel what I felt.'” Jenny “I think part of it is how I've been socialized as a white woman—you are supposed to be demure and look out for the betterment of other people. And even when women speak up about harm, they say, ‘I didn't want this to happen to another woman.' And that's good—but why isn't it enough to say, ‘This happened to me, and it's not okay?' It's like we need a surrogate to make it permissible to tell the truth.” Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

One in four of us—perhaps even more—have a messy relationship with our bodies as well as with food. What if a struggle with food and our bodies is not a failure, but a place Jesus longs to meet us with mercy? In this tender conversation, deeper stories beneath diet culture are gently uncovered, inviting compassion, healing, and hope. Nothing in our story is beyond His care. Come and begin to receive a kinder way forward. This is Part 1 of a 2-part conversation.…..SHOW NOTES:…..VERSES: Isaiah 61:1 (NIV) – The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners.Luke 4:18 (NIV) – The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free.Song of Songs 2:14 (NIV) – My dove in the clefts of the rock, in the hiding places on the mountainside, show me your face, let me hear your voice; for your voice is sweet, and your face is lovely.Ecclesiastes 1:14 (NIV) – I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.…..DIANE SUMMERSWebsite:⁠HopeNutritionTherapy.com⁠BIODiane Summers, MS, RDN has had the immense privilege of providing nutrition therapy for folks from all walks of life as they heal from the full spectrum of eating concerns and struggles, to include but not limited to severe eating disorders, chronic dieting and weight cycling, and orthorexia. She has a private practice, Hope Nutrition Therapy, and works virtually with clients all over the world. She has done this work for 22 years and absolutely loves it, as it's an incredible joy to show up for her clients and journey alongside them as they seek healing, freedom, and peace. Diane attends a neighborhood based church, serving on the board and occasionally preaching. She is a believer that we heal in the context of relationship and community. In her free time, you will find her exploring the Pacific Northwest beaches during low tide and geeking out on sea creatures, enjoying coffee from a local shop, traveling to see friends and family, leading Story Workshop and Narrative Focused Trauma Care groups with The Allender Center, dining out on delicious food, hosting friends in her home, hitting the ski slopes, or prepping for her soon to arrive golden retriever puppy who will hopefully become a therapy dog in her practice one day.Diane's Podcast Appearances:The Allender Center Podcast — Food & Body Series ⁠https://theallendercenter.org/category/podcast/food-and-body/⁠The Allender Center Podcast — Food Insecurity: ⁠https://theallendercenter.org/2023/11/food-insecurity/⁠Life Unrestricted: EP 32 – There is hope for healing and achieving a life free from body issues ⁠https://open.spotify.com/episode/5Sv77OBYNMiOQnJ8AuiM2m⁠Impossible Beauty Podcast —⁠⁠Lent, Fasting, & Diet Culture: ⁠https://www.impossible-beauty.com/podcast/lent-fasting-and-diet-culture⁠…..ADDITIONAL RESOURCESHealth At Every Size: The Surprising Truth About Your Weight by Linda Bacon⁠https://www.amazon.com/Health-At-Every-Size-Surprising/dp/1935618253/ref=sr_1_1⁠Association for Size Diversity and Health (ASDAH) — An organization promoting Health at Every Size® principles and inclusive, weight-neutral care. ⁠https://asdah.org⁠Research:  ⁠https://www.intuitiveeating.org/studies/⁠Substack:  ⁠https://weightandhealthcare.substack.com/⁠…..Don't Miss Out on the Next Episode—Subscribe for FreeSubscribe using your favorite podcast app:YouTube – ⁠https://wahe.art/4h8DelL⁠Spotify Podcasts – ⁠https://wahe.art/496zdfn⁠Apple Podcasts – ⁠https://apple.co/42E0oZ1⁠ Amazon Music & Audible – ⁠https://amzn.to/3M9u6hJ⁠

For decades, Rev. Rob Schenck was a leading voice in the religious right, shaping policy and influencing power from the halls of Washington, D.C. But over time, he began to see that the gospel he was serving had become entangled with politics, ambition, and illusion. In this episode, Rob reflects on the experiences that cracked his assumptions: moments of human suffering he couldn't ignore, the limits of religious influence, and the moral compromises he witnessed in powerful circles. He shares how these experiences—and encounters with people whose realities he had once dismissed—led him to reimagine faith as a call to truth, compassion, and reality rather than fantasy or control. This conversation isn't really about politics. It's about confronting hard truths, facing the realities of the world and ourselves, and rediscovering the gospel in a society where our imaginations, privileges, and systems often distort it. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org 

Many listeners of the Allender Center Podcast have asked us to explore neurodivergence—especially what it means to parent neurodivergent children or to make sense of a diagnosis in adulthood. We're pleased to welcome therapist Stephanie Isbell, a Narrative Focused Trauma Care®–trained clinician who works with neurodivergent adults and families. In conversation with Dan and Rachael, she leads us through the complex intersection of neurodivergence, trauma, identity, and story. Neurodivergence—which can include autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and more—points to the many ways human brains process the world differently. For many people, these differences have been misunderstood or pathologized, often leading to experiences of shame, isolation, and relational misunderstanding from early childhood.  Stephanie brings both clinical insight and compassionate curiosity to the conversation, helping unpack how neurodivergent people often grow up navigating social miscues, sensory overwhelm, and the pressure to "mask" their natural ways of being in order to fit in. She highlights how considering these experiences as part of a larger story—perhaps our own and perhaps those of the people we love—offers helpful layers of understanding, allowing us to respond with greater compassion. Throughout the conversation, we are invited to cultivate deeper curiosity—about ourselves and about the people we love. For parents, partners, and communities, this means moving beyond forcing conformity and instead learning to ask better questions, listen more carefully, and honor the unique ways each person experiences the world. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org   

Episode Summary Trigger Warning: We should mention that parts of this story might be disturbing for some of our listeners. Dolores Huerta reminds us of the risk still carried in speaking: “I think that women when they do come forward with their stories, that they instead of getting the kind of support that they need, to get attacked, I mean, or they're not believed that we've seen this happen throughout history, and so I think we'll just have to deal with that if it does happen. Hopefully it won't, but if it does, we'll just have to deal with it… have you spoken to the two women who were girls when they were assaulted by Cesar Chavez?” From Latino USA Podcast In this episode, the hosts move from a light, relatable moment—caring for an anxious rescue cat—into a deeply layered conversation about power, harm, and the complexities of accountability in both personal and societal contexts. Prompted by emerging allegations surrounding civil rights leader Cesar Chavez, the conversation explores a painful and recurring question: how do we reconcile meaningful social contributions with personal harm, particularly when those in power abuse their position? The hosts reflect on the exhaustion of witnessing repeated patterns of powerful men causing harm, and consider how systems of power themselves may shape or even encourage these dynamics. Drawing on psychological frameworks like the Stanford Prison Experiment, the discussion examines how dominance, hierarchy, and culturally defined leadership traits may predispose individuals toward harmful behavior. Danielle introduces her theory of “white attachment” as a hierarchical rather than relational system—one that prioritizes proximity to power over mutual connection—resulting in cycles of exclusion, trauma, and disconnection from belonging. The conversation expands into a broader critique of Western constructs of identity and belonging, particularly the idea that access to power and resources defines inclusion. Rebecca frames “whiteness” not as an inherent trait, but as a system organized around who is granted access and who is denied it—often requiring individuals to sacrifice parts of themselves to belong. From there, the hosts explore the instability of belonging in American systems—where invitations (to citizenship, safety, or care) are often paired with betrayal. This tension is linked to intergenerational trauma, migration, and the lived reality that safety is never guaranteed, even when promised. A central theme emerges around accountability: what it is, who enforces it, and whether current systems are capable of holding harm in meaningful ways. The group critiques institutional failures—from government to churches—and wrestles with the limitations of both punitive and individualistic approaches. In contrast, they reflect on community-based models of accountability, including restorative practices observed in Ugandan communities, where harm is understood as collective and healing involves ritual, reintegration, and shared responsibility. This raises a core tension between individual justice and communal repair—especially in cases of sexual violence, where harm is both deeply personal and socially embedded. The episode also highlights: The cost of silence for survivors, particularly when speaking out threatens community stability The lack of accountability for perpetrators, even when evidence is public (e.g., Epstein cases) The need to shift cultural responsibility from protecting victims to shaping the behavior and accountability of men The failure of communities to address early warning signs of harm Throughout, the hosts resist easy answers. Instead, they hold the complexity of these issues—acknowledging the difficulty of balancing justice, safety, belonging, and repair in a world where harm is both systemic and deeply human. The episode closes with a recognition that while no clear solutions were reached, the conversation itself reflects an ongoing search for more honest, collective, and humane ways of addressing harm and accountability. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Today, Christa helps you explore the crucial difference between the family systems concepts of emotional cutoff and healthy boundaries in family relationships. Learn why going completely silent often creates more problems than it solves, how cutoff patterns affect your marriage, and when boundaries might be a better (and even better for your nervous system) solution! Discover a simple repair framework for addressing family conflict without resorting to low blows, but also discern when cutoff might actually be necessary for safety! Listen here to this do-not-miss episode!! Watch on YouTube here! Show notes: CONTEST ALERT: We're doing a St. Patrick's Day week contest, too! Email your fave St. Patrick's day story to melody@enneagramandmarriage.com for a chance to win a FREE copy of The Enneagram in Marriage or another of Christa's books! The Allender Center is offering a whopping 50% discount to our community! Your team can learn more about their Narrative Triaing NFTC Level I training ⁠⁠here⁠⁠ and apply using the code nftcEM by May 31 Find more about your type, the pod, freebies, and SO much more at our website right here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.EnneagramandMarriage.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Love what you're learning on E + M? Make sure you leave us a podcast review so others can find us, too⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Christa's Best-Selling Book, The Enneagram in Marriage, here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://a.co/d/df8SxVx Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listener-favorite and couples therapist Shane Birkel (host of The Couple Therapist Couch podcast) is back! Though last time Shane talked about how men can be strong but soft, this episode tackles the other side of the #1 issue Christa is seeing with couples these days: women who have learned to use their voice but how now she is coming across abrasively in a way that hurts versus helps in their marriage. This is specifically about tone, delivery, and how empowerment can accidentally create new imbalances. Shane shares the techniques he uses with his couples to help wives recalibrate without going back to silence, and husbands re-engage without shutting down. We cover personal anecdotes, family systems dynamics between husband and wife, and practical tools for finding the healthy path between silenced and too strong. If you've been told you're "too much" or if your spouse has shut down since you found your voice, this episode is for you. Watch on YouTube here! Show links: Find Shane on his podcast, the Couples Therapist Couch Podcast here https://www.couplestherapistcouch.com/ The Allender Center is offering a whopping 50% discount to our community! Your team can learn more about their Narrative Triaing NFTC Level I training ⁠here⁠ and apply using the code nftcEM by May 31 Find more about your type, the pod, freebies, and SO much more at our website right here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.EnneagramandMarriage.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Love what you're learning on E + M? Make sure you leave us a podcast review so others can find us, too⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Christa's Best-Selling Book, The Enneagram in Marriage, here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://a.co/d/df8SxVx Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you been living within a role for years—only to wonder if there is more of you still waiting to be known? For decades, Becky Allender stood faithfully behind the scenes, supporting Dan's work, praying as an intercessor, helping build what would become the Allender Center. Yet she also carried the ache of being "in the room" without fully feeling she had a seat at the table. In today's conversation, she names the cost of that tension, and the courage it took to step forward. When Becky chose to participate in Narrative Focused Trauma Care—the very framework her husband helped create—something began to shift. Through the steady presence of skilled facilitators and courageous companions, she encountered grief she hadn't fully named and discovered a growing kindness toward parts of herself long defended or hidden. What followed was not only personal healing, but relational transformation. Through the language she gained and interactions she experienced, her relationship with Dan deepened. Repair with her daughters became possible. Her love for her parents softened and expanded. And from that engagement with her story emerged a clearer sense of calling—expressed in her teaching, leadership, and her memoir, Hidden in Plain Sight. Perhaps most compelling is this: Becky began this work after decades of marriage, motherhood, and ministry. It was not too late. And it is not too late for you. What might you be missing by staying in the role you've always carried? And what new life could unfold if you trusted that your story is still being written? *This episode mentions an incident of rape; listener discretion is advised. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.   Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast   To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/  

Ever wonder why your body still tenses around certain family members even after years of therapy or spiritual formation? Today we explore a topic Christa works on as well, and explore the difference between cognitive safety and somatic safety - why your nervous system keeps reacting even when your mind has moved on. Learn three simple body-based practices you can use before, during, and after family interactions, plus quick nervous system tips specific to your Enneagram type. Discover why proximity affects your nervous system regardless of forgiveness, and get permission to love someone from a healthy distance. Watch on YouTube! Show links: The Allender Center is offering a whopping 50% discount to our community! Your team can learn more about their Narrative Triaing NFTC Level I training here and apply using the code nftcEM by May 31 Find more about your type, the pod, freebies, and SO much more at our website right here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.EnneagramandMarriage.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Love what you're learning on E + M? Make sure you leave us a podcast review so others can find us, too⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Christa's Best-Selling Book, The Enneagram in Marriage, here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://a.co/d/df8SxVx Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What if healing from purity culture requires more than naming how you were hurt? What if it also means asking how you participated? In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen sit down with their colleague Dr. Lauren Sawyer, to explore her new book, Growing Up Pure. Lauren names something many haven't had language for: as teens, we weren't only victims of purity culture; we were also moral agents within it. We made choices. We found belonging. We sometimes resisted in small ways. And at times, we participated in systems that harmed others and ourselves. That tension between vulnerability and agency, harm and complicity can feel destabilizing. Yet Lauren invites us to see accountability not as punishment, but as a sacred, even hopeful, practice.  What if repentance wasn't shame-driven, but a pathway toward integration? What if healing meant not only tending to the wounds purity culture caused, but also examining how we were formed by—and sometimes upheld—it? This episode is honest, nuanced, and tender. It creates space to grieve the damage of purity culture while also imagining a different story. One rooted in the belief that we are made in the image of God as embodied, relational, sexual beings… and that restoration is possible. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast   To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/  

Sexual addiction is often treated as a behavior problem. Stop the behavior. Remove the temptation. Try harder next time. But what if the behavior is not the real issue? What if the patterns that bring shame, secrecy, and self-sabotage are actually revealing something deeper about the story you carry? This week on Win Today, therapist and researcher Jay Stringer joins me to unpack the anatomy of sexual addiction and unwanted sexual behavior. Drawing from research involving more than 3,800 men and women, Jay explains why these patterns are rarely random and how the unresolved parts of our past often shape them. We talk about why shame keeps people trapped in destructive cycles, why curiosity is often the first step toward healing, and why grief has the surprising power to reshape what we desire. Sexual struggles are not simply moral failures to suppress. They can become a roadmap that leads us toward the healing we have avoided. If you are stuck in patterns you cannot explain, if shame has kept you silent, or if you've tried to manage the behavior without understanding the story behind it, this episode will help you see why real freedom begins with honesty. Guest Bio Jay Stringer is a licensed therapist, minister, and researcher who helps men and women understand and outgrow unwanted sexual behaviors. He is the author of the award-winning book Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing, based on a multiyear research study involving more than 3,800 men and women exploring the roots of sexual addiction and compulsive sexual behavior. Jay is also the creator of the Sexual Behavior Self-Assessment and The Journey Course, a five-month program designed to help individuals identify and transform the deeper drivers behind destructive patterns. He holds an MDiv and a master's degree in counseling psychology from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and completed post-graduate training under Dr. Dan Allender while serving as a Senior Fellow at The Allender Center. Show Partner SafeSleeve designs a phone case that blocks up to 99% of harmful EMF radiation—so I'm not carrying that kind of exposure next to my body all day. It's sleek, durable, and most importantly, lab-tested by third parties. The results aren't hidden—they're published right on their site. And that matters because many so-called EMF blockers on the market either don't work or can't prove they do. We protect our hearts and minds—why wouldn't we protect our bodies too? Head to safesleevecases.com and use the code WINTODAY10 for 10% off your order. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my book "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

How often do we think about disgust? Yet it shapes our choices, relationships, and even our faith every day in ways we rarely notice.  In this episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Dr. Paul Hoard and Billie Hoard discuss their new book, "Eucontamination: Disgust Theology and the Christian Life," exploring how this powerful, often overlooked force influences us. Drawing from theology and psychology, they examine how disgust—originally designed to protect us—can become a tool for exclusion when applied to people rather than pathogens. From purity culture to nationalism to everyday relational divides, they consider how "contamination logic" forms the world around us. But the heart of their work is hopeful: Jesus doesn't abolish disgust—he inverts it. In Christ, holiness is not fragile. Love is stronger than sin. What looks contaminating does not defile him; instead, his presence transforms from within. This conversation invites us to reflect on where disgust may be shaping our reactions, relationships, and theology—and to imagine a discipleship formed by more courageous, more transformative love. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/  

In this final episode of the attachment series, Christa sits down with another Enneagram expert, Jeff Cook, Enneagram Type 1, philosopher, former pastor, and co-host of the popular Around the Circle Enneagram podcast, as we talk about attachment and how couples can process conflict. We also talk about his new book Around the Circle: An Enneagram Book (June 2025). Unlike most Enneagram books that profile types individually, Jeff's book explores nine essential questions everyone faces (like "How do I solve my problems?") and answers them for all nine types, creating a richer, more nuanced understanding. Jeff brings a Christian philosophical lens to the Enneagram, reminding us of the fact that relationships are all we bring with us into eternity, so it's important to grow here as an individual, and we try to answer what it means to be our healthiest selves. They discuss the power of naming our motives, why the Enneagram isn't about "putting people in boxes," the Harmonic groups (Positive Outlook: 2, 7, 9 who reframe; Competency: 1, 3, 5 who problem-solve; Reactive: 4, 6, 8 who intensify emotions). Whether you're new to the Enneagram or a seasoned student, this conversation will deepen your understanding and help you see yourself and your spouse more clearly. Watch on YouTube! Important Show Notes from the Allender Center's Marriage Class Marriage class coming up! Get live teaching from The Allender Center 's prolific teachers Dan and Becky Allender across three dates, starting tomorrow (or watch over Zoom) and use the code enneagram30 to get $30 off the course here! Growing in Marriage: A Guided Journey with Dan & Becky Allender. Jeff's Exciting Around the Circle Materials! Get Jeff's book here! https://www.amazon.com/Around-Circle-Enneagram-Jeff-Cook/dp/B0FD46YT16 Listen to the Around the Circle pod here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/around-the-circle-an-enneagram-channel/id1466446583 Visit the entire Around the Circle crew on their website as well! www.AroundtheCircle.org Find more about your type, the pod, freebies, and SO much more at our website right here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.EnneagramandMarriage.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Love what you're learning on E + M? Make sure you leave us a podcast review so others can find us, too⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ here!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get Christa's Best-Selling Book, The Enneagram in Marriage, here! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://a.co/d/df8SxVx Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Who gets to tell the story? This week, Pastor James A. White returns to the Allender Center Podcast to explore why that question sits at the heart of Black History Month. Marking 100 years since Carter G. Woodson launched Negro History Week in February 1926, this episode examines how history has long been shaped by those in power — and how it remains at risk of erasure when we refuse to name the truth. From the creation of racial categories to modern claims of "colorblindness," division has been strategically constructed to preserve power, while silence continues to support a distorted narrative. But this conversation isn't only about what has been. It's about what is unfolding now. The same grasping for power, the same fear-based narratives, the same temptation to flatten difference are still at work today. Black history reveals both the cost of erasure and the brilliance of resilience. And it invites us to ask: What story are we participating in now? About Our Guest: James White is an architect of identity-driven leadership who designs environments where leaders and organizations align values, systems, and culture for lasting impact. As Senior Pastor of Christ Our King Community Church, he integrates strategy, story, and spiritual formation to develop leaders who strengthen both communities and institutions.   James served for more than two decades as an Executive Vice President within large-scale, multi-million-dollar YMCA nonprofit systems—first in the Raleigh–Durham Triangle and later with the YMCA of the North in Minneapolis. In these executive roles, he designed leadership formation systems that developed emerging and senior-level leaders, aligned mission with operational execution, and strengthened organizational culture across complex community-based institutions. He has facilitated cross-sector leadership labs for executive teams in both for-profit and nonprofit sectors, creating learning environments focused on identity clarity, values alignment, governance structure, and systems coherence. Over the course of 40 years, James has engaged audiences across academia, think tanks, business, nonprofit organizations, state and local government, and professional sports organizations throughout the United States and Canada. At the core of his work is a simple conviction: identity shapes leadership, and both individuals and institutions have the opportunity to design a better story. Related Resources: Listen to "The Narratives of Marginalization" with Pastor James A. White and Linda Royster on the Allender Center Podcast. Explore Racial Trauma & Healing offerings from the Allender Center. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/  

What if the freedom you long for is hidden in that final 3% of the truth you're afraid to share? This week, Dan and Rachael are joined by therapists Blake Roberts and Jamie Haigh of the Three Percent Podcast for a thoughtful conversation about holistic masculinity, loneliness, and the risk of real vulnerability. Blake and Jamie share the meaning behind the "three percent", which references the small but powerful parts of our story we hide in shame, and how naming them opens the door to deeper connection and freedom. Together, they explore why so many men feel alone, the difference between conquering and connecting, and how redemptive risk invites us into a fuller, more honest life. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.   At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.   Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast   To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/

Talking with kids about sex, pornography, and sexuality can stir up fear, shame, and a deep sense of inadequacy for many parents. In this episode, Dan and Rachael sit down with author and parent-educator Laurie Krieg to think through a steadier, wiser way forward—one rooted in the gospel, attunement, and ongoing relationship rather than one-time "big talks." Drawing from her new book "Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World," Laurie shares her own journey as she offers parents help to move from reactivity to intentionality. She names why these conversations feel so overwhelming—often because of our own unresolved stories—and invites parents to do their own work so they can show up with courage and calm.  Rather than avoiding hard topics or responding with fear and control, Laurie offers concrete, age-appropriate ways to engage kids through many small conversations over time, helping parents become the trusted "anchor" their children return to when confusion, curiosity, or exposure inevitably arises. This conversation is especially helpful for parents navigating early exposure to pornography, online content, and rapidly changing technology. Laurie shares practical language parents can use, how to reduce shame when kids encounter inappropriate material, and how to frame boundaries not around fear, but around God's beautiful design for bodies, intimacy, and care.  Throughout, the emphasis is clear: it's never too late to begin, repair matters more than perfection, and wisdom is something parents can grow into—step by step—as they walk alongside their children in a complex world. ===== About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. You can find transcripts, show notes, and more for each episode at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/

In a country that is hurting and fractured by deep division, many of us are wondering how to remain rooted in love. As followers of Jesus, the question before us is not simply what do we think, but how do we stay human, attentive, and faithful in such a time as this? In this thoughtful and spacious conversation, Rachael Clinton Chen welcomes theologian and author Kat Armas into a much-needed dialogue about power, imagination, and what it means to remain grounded and joined together in the way of Jesus. Drawing from her newest book, "Liturgies for Resisting Empire: Seeking Community, Belonging, and Peace in a Dehumanizing World," Kat invites listeners beyond political binaries and party lines into a deeper reckoning with how power has shaped our stories.  Here, empire names more than a political system. It refers to any way of organizing life—political, theological, cultural, or personal—that relies on power and fear to preserve itself, rather than love, humility, and mutual care. Often, its influence goes unnamed, shaping our imaginations, our bodies, our relationships, and even our spirituality. Against this backdrop, Kat offers liturgies as embodied practices that can steady us, give us language when words feel thin, and help us resist dehumanization together. This episode is not about debating political parties or policies. Instead, it invites us to slow down, to notice what's been "in the water" all along, and to return our attention to Jesus. We hope this conversation offers something more sustaining than easy answers—a holy resistance shaped by presence, community, and love. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.   At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast   To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/  

Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, is a formative voice in the movement toward healing from spiritual abuse. As a trauma care practitioner and pastoral leader, she weaves together theology, psychology, and story to accompany individuals and communities toward a kind of wholeness and resilient faith that tells the truth and pursues repair. She serves as a lead instructor for the Allender Center at The Seattle School and is co-host of the Allender Center Podcast with Dr. Dan Allender. Rachael is a stormborn woman of the Oklahoma plains and received a Bachelor of Arts in Religion from Oklahoma Baptist University. She holds a Master of Divinity from The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology and recently had the honor of being named by Sojourners as one of "9 Christian Women Shaping the Church in 2024." Rachael is devoted to addressing the harm of abuse – especially spiritual abuse – at the intersection of trauma, healing, embodiment and spiritual formation. She leads the Story Workshop for Spiritual Abuse & Healing and recently developed the Allender Center's Spiritual Abuse & Healing Online Course, inviting survivors of spiritual abuse to journey together towards healing and reclamation.

Faith, hope, and love are beautiful words—but for many of us, they don't feel simple or safe. When they've been wielded to control, silence, or shame, these core concepts can carry weight, confusion, and even fear. In the wake of spiritual abuse, what once promised life can feel distorted or out of reach. Today, Dan and Rachael step tenderly and courageously into what it means to reclaim faith, hope, and love after harm.  Rather than treating faith as certainty, hope as optimism, or love as obedience, they reframe these virtues as deeply human, relational realities: faith as trust, hope as imagination for a future shaped by goodness, and love as a force grounded in honor, freedom, and delight.  Together, they name how spiritual abuse exploits fear and shame to protect power—fracturing our ability to trust ourselves, others, and even God.  Healing doesn't begin with forcing a set of dogmatic beliefs, but with safety: learning to listen to our bodies, recover discernment, and engage relationships where difference and nuance are welcomed. This conversation is for anyone longing to rediscover a faith that makes room for personhood, courage, and love that does not demand fear in return. ===== About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/  

 Season 6 episode 18 rebecca  j...and therapy - 1_8_26, 10.27 AMThu, Jan 08, 2026 10:40AM • 57:28SUMMARY KEYWORDSemotional metabolization, existential threat, destabilizing changes, social media, information overload, Venezuela crisis, racial identity, colonization, anti-blackness, white privilege, immigration policies, historical context, white supremacy, interdependence, narrative controlSPEAKERSSpeaker 3, Speaker 1, Speaker 2 Jenny  00:30I think something I'm sitting with is the impossibility and the necessity of trying to metabolize what's going on in our bodies. Yeah, and it feels like this double bind where I feel like we need to do it. We need to feel rage and grief and fear and everything else that we feel, and I don't think our nervous systems have evolved to deal with this level of overwhelm and existential threat that we're experiencing, but I do believe our bodies, Yeah, need space to try to do that, yeah,yesterday, I was sitting at, I don't know what's gonna happen to people anyway, Rebecca  01:45Pretty good. I'm okay. It like everyone. I think there's just a lot of crazy like and a lot of shifting to like, things that we could normally depend on as consistent and constant are not constant anymore. And that is like, it's very, 02:11I don't even have a word I want to say, disconcerting, but that's too light. There's, it's very destabilizing to to watch things that were constants and norms just be ripped out from underneath. People on like, every day there's something new that used to be illegal and now it's legal, or vice versa. Every day there's like, this new thing, and then you're having to think, like, how is that going to impact me? Is it going to impact me? How is it going to impact the people that I care about and love? Yeah, Danielle  02:52Jenny and I were just saying, like, maybe we could talk about just what's going on in the world right now, in this moment. And Jenny, I forgot how you were saying it like you were saying that we need to give our bodies space, but we also need to find a way to metabolize it so we can take action. I'm paraphrasing, but yeah, Rebecca  03:30And I would agree, and something else that I was thinking about too is like, what do you metabolize? And how do you metabolize it? Right? Like, in terms of what's happening in Venezuela, I have people that I count very dear to me who feel like it was a very appropriate action, and and people who are very dear to me who feel like absolutely not. That's ridiculous, right? And so, and I'm aware on that particular conversation, I'm not Venezuelan. I'm not I'm very aware that I stand on the outside of that community and I'm looking in on it, going, what do I need to know in order to metabolize this? What do I not know or not understand about the people who are directly impacted by this. And so I, like, I have questions even you know about some of the stuff that I'm watching. Like, what do you metabolize and how do you come to understand it? And in a place where it's very difficult to trust your information sources and know if the source that you're you're have is reliable or accurate or or complete in it, in its detail, it feels those are reasons why, to me, it feels really hard to metabolize things i. Jenny  05:06There's this like rule or like theory thing. I wish I could remember the name of it, but it's essentially like this, this graph that falls off, and it's like, the less you know about something, the more you think you know about it, and the more confident you are. And the more you know, the less confident you are. And it just explains so well our social media moment, and people that read like one headline and then put all these reels together and things talking about it. And on one hand, I'm grateful that we live in an age where we can get information about what's going on. And at the other end, like, you know, I know there, there's somewhere, some professor that's spent 15 years researching this and being like it is. There's so much here that people don't know and understand. And yeah, it feels like the sense of urgency is on purpose. Like that we just have to like it feels like people almost need to stay up to date with everything. But then I also wonder how much of that is whiteness and this idea of like, saviorism and like, if I'm just informed, then I'm doing my duty and like what I need to do and and what does it look like to slow down and be with things that are right in front of US and immediate, without ignoring these larger, transnational and global issues. Yeah, it feels so complicated. Rebecca  06:55I do think the sense of urgency is on purpose. I think that the overwhelming flood of information at this time is not just a function of like social media, but I think, I think the release of things and the timing of things is intentional, I think, and so I think there's a lot of Let's throw this one thing in front of you, and while you everybody's paying attention to that, let's do 10 other things behind closed doors that are equally, if not more, dangerous and harmful than the thing that we're letting You see up front. And so I think some of that is intentional. So I think that that sense of almost flooding is both about social media, yes, but it's also about, I think some of this is intentional, on purpose, flooding Jenny  08:01I think it's wise to ask those questions and try to sort of be paying attention to both what is being said and what is not being said. Rebecca  08:16Yeah, it may makes me think, even as you named Venezuela like my understanding is that that happened either the day of or the day before Congress was supposed to explain why they had redacted the Epstein files, and it just the lengths that they will go to to distract from actually releasing the files and showing the truth about Trump and Epstein and everyone else that was involved is, Speaker 2  08:52well, yeah, yeah, yes. And there's something in me that also wants to say, like it what happened around Venezuela might be 09:32and its natural resources is not a small thing. And then I was reminded today by someone else, this is also not the first time this country has done that. It might be the first time it was televised to the world, but so I don't Yes on the distraction. And I agree with you times 1000 10:09hard about this moment, is that there's all this stuff that's happening that's like absolutely we would be looking at, how do you possibly put any of that in any sense of order that it makes any sense? Because, yes, the FC, I mean, it's horrific. What we're talking about is likely in those files, and if they are that intent on them not coming out, if it's worse than what we already know, that's actually scary. Danielle  10:44Yeah, I agree that this isn't new, because this is it feels like, you know, Ibram X kendi was like, talking about, hey, like, this is what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about. And it feels as though, when we talk, I'm just going to back up, there's been this fight over what history are we teaching, you know, like, this is dei history, or this is, you know, critical race history. But in the end, I think we actually agree on the history more than we think. We just don't disagree on where we should take it. Now, what I think is happening is that, and you hear Donald J Trump talk about the Monroe Doctrine, or Vance talk about Manifest Destiny, or Stephen Miller, these guys talk about these historical things. They're talking about the history of colonization, but from a lens of like, this was good, this was not a mistake. Quote, slavery was not necessarily a bad thing. You have like Doug Wilson and these other Christian nationalists like unapologetically saying there was slavery. It's been throughout all time. This was, quote, a benefit people, you know, you have Charlie Kirk saying, you know, in the 1940s like pre civil rights movement, quote, I think he said, quote, black people were happier. He has said these things. So in my, in my mind, yes, they, they're they're saying, like, we don't want X taught in schools. But at the same time, they actually, we actually kind of agree on history. What we don't agree on is what we should do with it, or or who's in com, who's in control. Now, I think what they're saying is, this was history. We liked it, and we don't like the change in it, and we're just gonna keep doing it. I mean, they literally have reinstated the Monroe Doctrine, which is so racist, it's like, and manifest destiny is like, so fucked up to, like, put that back in place, like Rebecca said, I'm not, I'm not negating the murder that just happened in Minneapolis, but this concept that you you can tell who's human and that these resources belong to us, the only person human in the room, then, is the White man. I don't know. Does that make sense? It Rebecca  13:24makes me think of you know, when you talk about sort of identity formation, or racial identity formation, when you are talking about members of the majority culture and their story is, is this manifest destiny? Is this colonization and and the havoc and the harm that that they engaged in against whole people groups in order to gain the power? Do they, sort of, on a human level, metabolize the their membership in that group, and what that group has done the heart the and that it's come by its power by harming other people, right? And so in order to sort of metabolize that you can minimize it and dismiss it as not harmful. So that's the story, that slavery is not a bad thing, and that black people are happier under slavery, right? You can deny it and say that it didn't happen, or if it did, it wasn't me. That's Holocaust deniers, right? That didn't happen. I think what we're looking at now is the choice that some of the powers that be are making in order to metabolize this is to just call what is evil good, to just rewrite. Not the facts, but the meaning that that we draw from those facts. And then to declare, I have the right to do this, and when I do this, it makes me more powerful, it makes me a better leader, and it establishes rules and norms about right versus wrong. I think they're rewriting the meaning making as a way to kind of come to terms with what what they've done. And so I think that statement by the Vice President about you no longer have to apologize for being white in this country is actually about more than an apology. That was that is now, a couple of weeks later, after watching what happened in Venezuela, watching what happened in Minneapolis, watching what they're doing about Greenland, you go like, that's just a statement that we're going to do whatever the heck we want, and you cannot stop us, and we will do it without apology, and we will make you believe. We will craft a narrative that what is wrong is actually right, Jenny  16:43it just, it's, it's wild to me that our last time, or two times ago that we were talking, I was talking about Viola liozo, who was the white woman who drove black people during the bus boycott and was murdered, and the what feels like is being exposed is the precarity of white privilege, like it is Real. It exists, and so long as white people stay within the bounds of what is expected of them, and Renee good did not and I think that that is it Rebecca  17:36exposes what's already true, that I think racism and race are constructs to protect the system, and so if, no matter what your melanin is, if you start to move against the system, you immediately are at risk in a different way, and yet still not in the same way. You know, like there are already plenty of people who have died and been disappeared at the hands of ice. What happened is not new. What is new is that it did happen to a white woman, and it reveals something about where we are in the fulcrum, tip, I think, of of power and what's happening? 18:30because I think the same, like you said, is true during the Civil Rights Movement, right that in there, they're really they're most of their stories we don't know. There's a handful of them that we know about these, these white the people who believe themselves to be white, to quote on history codes, who were allies and who acted on behalf of the Civil Rights Movement and who lost their life because of it. There's probably way more than we know, because, again, those are stories that are not allowed to be told. But it makes me wonder if, if the exposure that you're talking about Jenny is because we were at some sort of tipping point right, in a certain sense, by the time you elect Obama in oh eight, you could make the argument that something of racial equality is beginning to be institutionalized in the country, right? I'm not saying that he solved everything and he was this panacea, but I'm saying when the system, when the people in the system, find a way to bring equilibrium. That's the beginning of something being institutionalized, right? And, and, and did that set off this sort of mass panic in the majority culture to say that that cannot happen? Mm. Yeah, and and, so there is this backlash to make sure that it doesn't happen, right? And to the extent that it's beginning to be institutionalized, that means that some members of the majority culture have begun to agree with the institutionalism of some kind of equilibrium, some type of equity, otherwise you wouldn't see it start to seep into the system itself, right? And it means that there are people who open doors, there are people who left Windows cracked open there, you know, there are, right? I mean, somebody somewhere that had the key to the door, left it unlocked, so, so that, so that a marginalized community could find an entrance, right? And and so it does make me think about, are we? Are we looking at this sort of historical tipping point? And what's being exposed is all these people are the majority culture who are on the wrong side of this argument. We need you to get back in line. I mean, if you read ta nehisi Coates book, eight years in power, he makes a sort of similar argument that that's what happened around reconstruction, right? You have the Emancipation Proclamation being signed, slavery is now illegal in the United States, and there's this period during reconstruction where there's mass sort of accomplishment that happens in the newly freed slave community. And then you see the rise of the Ku Klux Klan and the very violent backlash. This is not going to happen. We're not. We're not. And when, when I say what happened during Reconstruction, is like again, the beginning of the institutionalizing of that kind of equilibrium and equity that came out of the Emancipation Proclamation. Right? My kids were part of a genealogy project a few years back, and one of the things that they uncovered is they have a ancestor who was elected to this 22:27and while he was in office, he was instrumental in some of the initial funding that went to Hampton to establish Hampton University, right? And so that's the kind of institutionalized equity that starts to happen in this moment, and then this massive violent backlash, the rise of the Ku Klux, Klan, the black codes. We this is not going to happen. We're not doing this right. And so it does make me wonder if what we're actually looking at the exposure that you're talking about, Jenny is like the beginning of the this sort of equilibrium that could happen when you when things start to get institutionalized and and the powers that be going No way, no How, no dice, not doing that. Danielle  23:21I think that's true, and especially among immigrant communities. I don't know if you know, at the beginning, they were saying, like, we're just going after the violent criminals, right? And this morning, I watched on a news source I really trust, a video of a Somali citizen, a US citizen, but as a Somali background, man pulled over by ice like he's an Uber driver in Minneapolis. And they like, surrounded him, and he's like, wait a minute, I thought you were going after the violent criminals. And they're like, Well, you know, like, Are you a US citizen? He's like, Well, where's your warrant? And they're like, we're checking your license plate. He's like, well, then you know who I am. And then they want him to answer, and they keep provoking and they're like, Oh, you have a video on us. And he's like, Oh, you have a GoPro. He's like, I thought you were just going after violent criminals, you know? And they're like, no, we want to know if you're a US citizen. So in a sense, you know, there was all this rhetoric at the beginning that said, we you have to do it the right way. And I remember at the very beginning feeling afraid for Luis like, oh, man, shit, we did this the right way. I don't know if that's really guarantee. I don't think that's a guarantee of any guarantee of anything. And it's not doing well paying all the bills like it's expensive to become a citizen. It is not easy. Paying all the bills, going to the fingerprints, get in the test, hiring a lawyer, making sure you did it. Like cross, all your T's dot, all your eyes, just to get there and do it. And then they're saying, you know, and then they're saying, Well, prove it. Well, what do you have on your record? Or people showing up after having done all that work? They're showing up to their swearing in to be US citizens. And they're saying, Sorry, nope. And they're like, taken by ice. So you can see what you're saying. Rebecca first, it says violent criminals. Yeah, and you know, you have to have like, an FBI fingerprint background check. You had to do this, like, 10 years ago. Whenever Luis became a citizen, that's like, serious shit, you get your background check. So by the time you're into that swearing in, they know who you are, like you're on record, they know who you are, so they've done all that work. So this is not about being a criminal. This is about there's somebody successful that's possibly not white, that has done all the right things, paid all the fees, has the paperwork, and you don't like them because they're not white. And I think that's directly related to anti blackness. Rebecca  25:40Yeah. Say more about the anti blackness, because we started this conversation talking about Somalis and and Somalis are only the latest target of ice, right? It started with people of Latino descent. So how does that for you come down to anti blackness? Oh, for me, Danielle  26:02I see it as a as a projection. I can't tolerate my feelings about, quote, people of color, but let's be more specific about black people, and I can't tolerate those feelings. And for a time, I think we were in this sliver of time where it was not quite it was still like gaining social momentum to target black folks, but it was still a little bit off limits, like we were still like, oh, it's the criminals. Oh, it's these bad, bad guys. I know it's just the Latinos or, Oh, it's just this, this and this and this. But then if you notice, you start watching these videos, you start noticing they're like, they're grabbing, like, Afro Latinos. They're like, they're like, pushing into that limit, right? Or Puerto Rican folks they've grabbed, who are US citizens? So now you see the hate very clearly moving towards black folks. Like, how does an untrained $50,000 bonus ice agent know if, quote, a black person, quote, you know, if we're talking in the racial construct, has a Somali background or not, right? Right? It actually feels a little bit to me like grooming, right? Rebecca  27:24I I've asked myself this question several times in the past couple of years, like, and if, and I think some of the stuff that I've read like about the Holocaust, similar question, right? Was like, is racism really the thing that is that is driving this or is it something else, like at the at the heart of it, at the end of the day, are you really driven by racialized hate of someone that is different than you? Or is that just the smoke screen that the architects of this moment are using because you'll fall for it, right? And so I do think like you start with the criminals, because that's socially acceptable, and then you move very quickly from the criminals to everybody in that ethnic group, right? And so you see the supreme court now saying that you can stop and frisk somebody on the basis of a surname 28:22or an accent, Rebecca  28:26right? And it feels very much like grooming, because what was socially acceptable was first this very small subset, and now we've expanded to a whole people group, and now we've jumped from one country to another, which is why I think you know MLK is quote about injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. If you're going to come for one subset, you will eventually come for everyone, until the only subset is those in power versus those that aren't. Danielle  29:05Or just, let me just ask you this question then, so you got he's enforcing immigration bans on certain countries. Guess who the where the majority of those countries are located, Africa. Now, why didn't he do that with Latin the Latin America? It's very interesting, Rebecca  29:29and my fear is that it's coming right again. It's socially acceptable in this country to be anti black. Everyone understands that, and then you move from anti black to anti everybody else. And what you say is this, this people group is closer to black than white, and for that reason, they're out too, which is also not a new argument in this country. Jenny  29:58It makes me think of someone you. To this illustration, then I will not get it probably exactly how it is, but it was basically like if I have a room of 10 people, and I need to control those 10 people, I don't need to control those 10 people. I need to make a scapegoat out of three of them, and then the other seven will be afraid to be that scapegoat. And I feel like that is a part of what's going on, where, viscerally, I think that, again, like white bodies know, like it is about race and it's not about race, like race is the justification of hatred and tyrannical control. And I really love the book by Walter Rodney, how Europe underdeveloped Africa. And he traces like what Europe, and I would include the US now has done to the continent of what is so called Africa, and it didn't in the end, that it was used to create race and racism in order to justify exploitation and of people and resources. And so it's like, yeah, I think at the end of the day, it's really not about race, and it is because of the way in which that's been used to marginalize and separate even from the construction of whiteness, was to try to keep lower socioeconomic whites from joining with formerly enslaved black people and indigenous people to revolt against the very few people that actually hold power, like there are way more people that lack power. But if, if those in power can keep everyone siloed and divided and afraid, then they get to stay in power. Danielle  32:01That's where I come back to history. And I feel like, I feel like these guys like JD Vance and Stephen Miller love our history and hate the parts of it that are leading towards liberation. For people, they love that they love the colonization. They talk about it. They've there's a fantasy. They're living in, this fantasy of what could be, of what was for one set of people, and that was white men. And they're enacting their fantasy on us in some ways, you know, I think the question of, you know, Jenny, you always deal with bodies, and, you know, you're kind of known for that shit, I think, I think, just like, but the question of, like, who has a body when, when? Like, when does the body count? You know, like, when does it matter? And it feels like that's where race becomes really useful, 33:09because it gets to say, like, you know, like, that white lady, that's not really, that's not really a murder, you know. Or, you know, George Floyd, like, Nah, that's not really it, you know, just com, and they knew there's so many other lynchings and murders. Like, we can't cover them all. I just think it's just speaks to, like, who, you know, another way to say it'd be like, who's human and who's not. Jenny  33:42And like I sent you. Danielle, there was a post yesterday that someone said, those white lives matter. People seem to be really silent right now. And it just exposes, like the the hypocrisy, even in that and the, I think, the end of not the end, because racial privilege is still there, but, but this moment is exposing something, I think, as you're naming Rebecca, like it feels like this really scary tipping, and maybe hopeful tipping, where it's like there's enough, maybe fear or grasping of power, that there's enough desperation to execute a white woman, which historically and now, I think it says something about where we are in this moment. And I don't know exactly what yet, but I think it's, it's very exposing. Rebecca  34:43Yeah, but my what floats across my mind when you say that is really what has been the narrative or trajectory for white women? Because I think if you start to pull on stories like Emmett Till. 35:01Soul, and you realize what has been done in the name of protecting white women that doesn't actually feel like protection, right, right? And so, so again, you almost have this sense of like white femininity being this pawn, right? And you and you can have this narrative that that sounds like it's protection, sounds like it's value, but really it's not right. I only pull that out and use it when it when it gives me permission to do what I really want to do, right? 35:43And so in this moment. Now, you know, I mean, Emmett Till died because he was accused of looking inappropriately at a white woman, right? More recently, that incident with the the bird watcher in Central Park, right? I mean, his freedom is is under threat because of a white woman and, and then how do we go from that to ice killing a white woman and, and what like you said? What does that actually say about the value of white women, Was it, was it ever really recognized by the powers that be, right? Or is that like a straw man that I put up so I can have permission to do whatever I want? Jenny  36:36Absolutely, yeah, I think the trope of protecting white womanhood. It's it's always given women privilege and power, but that is only in proximity to white men and performing white womanhood. And you know, as you were talking about, the rise of lynchings, it did begin after reconstruction, and it really coincided with the first movie ever shown in theaters, which was Birth of a Nation they showed, yeah, white men in blackface, sexually assaulting a white woman, and the absolute frenzy and justification that that evoked was, we're protecting our white women, which was really always about protecting racial and class privilege, not the sovereignty of the bodies of white women, Rebecca  37:33right, right? And so we're back to your original thought, that what now is exposed, you know, with what happened in Minnesota is it's not really about protecting her and she's expendable. She is, quote, a domestic terrorist 37:56now so that we can justify what we're doing, Jenny  38:15which I think subconsciously at least white bodies have always known like there is something of I am safe and I am protected and I am privileged, so long as I keep performing whiteness. Rebecca  38:39I mean, the thing that scares me about that moment is that now we've gone Danielle from the criminals to the brown skinned citizens to white women who can be reclassified and recast as Domestic Terrorists if you don't toe the line, right? They're coming for everybody, because, because now we have a new category of people that ice has permission to go after, right? And again, it reminds me, if you look back at the black codes, which, again, got established during that same time period as you're talking about Birth of a Nation, Jenny, it became illegal for black people to do a whole host of things, to congregate, to read all kinds of things, right to vote, and in some states, it became illegal for white people to assist them in accomplishing any of those tasks. I Yeah, Danielle  39:53I mean, it's just the obliteration of humanity like the. Literal like, let me any humanity that can you can connect with your neighbor on let me take that away. Let me make it illegal for you to have that human share point with your neighbor. I really, that really struck me. I think it was talking about the the Minnesota mayor saying they're trying to get you to see your neighbor as like, less than human. He's like, don't fall for it. Don't fall for it. And I agree, like, we can't fall for it. I'm mean, it's like that. I Jenny  40:45don't know if you know that famous quote from Nazi Germany that was, like, they came for the Jews. And I didn't say anything because I wasn't a Jew. They, you know? And we've seen this, and we've all grown up with this, and the fact that so many people collectively have been like, well, you know, I'm not a criminal, well, I'm not an immigrant, well, I'm not, and it's like it this beast is coming for everybody, Rebecca  41:13yeah, well, and I, you know, I think That as long as we have this notion of individualism that I only have to look out for me and mine, and it doesn't matter what happens to anyone else. That is allowed the dynamic that you're talking about Jenny is allowed to flourish and until we come to some sense of interdependence until we come to some sense of the value of the person sitting next to me, and until we come to some sense of, if it isn't well with them, it cannot possibly be well with me. That sort of sense of, Well, I'm not a criminal, I'm not a Jew, so I don't have to worry about it is gonna flourish. 42:09Yesterday, I jumped42:12on Facebook for a second, and somebody that I would consider a dear friend had a lengthy Facebook post about how in favor he was of the President's actions in Venezuela, and most of his rationale was how this person, this dictator, was such a horrible person and did all of these horrible things. And my first reaction was, like, very visceral. I don't, I can't even finish this post like, I just, I mean, this is very visceral, like, and, and I don't want to talk to you anymore, and I'm not sure that our 20 plus years of friendship is sufficient to overcome how, how viscerally I am against the viewpoint that you just articulated, and I find myself, you know, a day later, beginning to wonder, Where is there some value in his perspective as a Latino man, what, what is his experience like that, that he feels so strongly about the viewpoint that he feels? And I'm not saying that he's right. I'm saying that if we don't learn to pause for a second and try to sit in the shoes of the other person before dismissing their value as a human. We will forever be stuck in the loop that we're in, right? I don't you know, I don't know that I will change my opinion about how much as an American, I have problems with the US president, snatching another leader and stealing the resources of their country. But I'm trying to find the capacity to hear from a man of Latino descent the harm that has been done to the people of Venezuela under this dictator, right? And I have to make myself push past that visceral reaction and try to hear something of what he's saying. And I would hope that he would do the same. I. Danielle  45:06I don't have words for it. You know, it just feels so deep, like it feels like somewhere deep inside the dissonance and also the want to understand, I think we're all being called, you know, Rebecca, this moment is, you know, this government, this moment, the violence, it's, it's, it's extracting our ability to stay with people like and it's such a high cost to stay with people. And I get that, I'm not saying it isn't, but I think what you're talking about is really important. Rebecca  45:57like you said, Jenny earlier, when you were talking about like, the more you know about something, the less confident you are, right? It's like, I can name, I am not Venezuelan, right? I can name I don't even think I know anybody who's from Venezuela, and if I do, I haven't taken the time to learn that you're actually from Venezuela, right, right? And I don't know anything about the history or culture of that country or the dictator that that was taken out of power. But I have seen, I can see in my friend's Facebook post that that's, it's a very painful history that he feels very strongly about. I so mostly that makes me as a black American, pause on how, on how much I want To dismiss his perspective because it's different than mine. Jenny  47:22I yeah, it also makes me think of how we're so conditioned to think in binaries and like, can there be space to hold the impossible both and where it's like, who am I to say whether or not people feel and are liberated or not in another country? I guess time will tell to see what happens. But for those that are Venezuelan and that are celebrating the removal of Maduro like can that coexist with the dangerous precedent of kidnapping a leader of a foreign country and starting immediately to steal their resources and and how do we Do this impossible dance of holding how complex these these experiences are that we're trying to navigate Rebecca  48:29and to self declare on national TV that like you're the self appointed leader of the country until, until whenever right some arbitrary line that you have drawn that you will undoubtedly change six times. I mean the danger of that precedent. It is I don't have vocabulary for how problematic that is. Danielle  48:57I don't mean to laugh, but if you didn't believe in white supremacy before, I would be giving you a lesson, and this is how it works, and it's awesome. Jenny  49:10And like you're saying, Rebecca, like I love books are coming to me today. There's another one called How to hide an empire and it Chase. It tracks from western expansion in what is now known as the United States to imperialism in the Philippines, in Puerto Rico, like in all of these places where we have established Dominion as a nation, as an empire, and what feels new is how televised and public this is, that people are being forced to confront it, hopefully in a different way, and maybe there can be more of this collective like way to psych it. This isn't what I'm supporting, because. I think for so long, this two party system that we've been force fed has a lot of difference when it comes to internal politics in the United States, but when it comes to transnational and international politics, it's been pretty much very similar for Democrats and Republicans in terms of what our nation is willing to do to other nations that we are conditioned not to think about. And so I think there's a hope. There's a desire for a hope for me to be like, Okay, can we see these other nations as humans and what the US has always done since the beginning. Rebecca  50:45you know, there's what actually happened, and then there's the history book story that we tell about what happened, right? And it like, it like what Danielle said. It appears to me that white supremacy is just blatantly at play, right? Like they're not hiding it at all. They're literally telling you, I can walk I can walk into another country, kidnap its leader and steal its resources. And I will tell you, that's what I'm doing. I will show you video footage of me intercepting oil tankers. I right like, and I will televise the time, place and location of my meeting with all the oil executives to get the oil um and and I'd like to be able to say that that is a new moment in history, and that what feels different is that we've never been so blatant about it, but I'm not sure that's true, right? I would love to have a time machine and be able to go back in some other point in time in American history and find out what they printed on the front page of the newspaper while they were stealing Africans from Africa or all the other while they were committing genocide against all the Native American tribes and all the other places and countries and people groups that the United States has basically taken their people and their resources. And so I don't know if this is different. I don't because, because the history books that I read would suggest that it is that right, but I don't. You can't always trust the narrative that we've been taught. Right? When I think there's an African proverb but as long as history is told by the lion, it will always favor the lion. Jenny  52:55I love you. Really good to be with you. Love you. Bye. Bye. See You Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias' and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me…Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me… Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Adam Young is a trauma therapist and the host of The Place We Find Ourselves podcast. He is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) with master's degrees in social work (Virginia Commonwealth University) and divinity (Emory University). Adam regularly speaks at conferences and currently serves as a fellow with The Allender Center. He lives in Fort Collins, Colorado, with his wife and two children.

What if the key to a stronger marriage isn't another technique—but a deeper understanding of your story?Dan and Becky Allender of the Allender Center join Lead Pastor Kris McDaniel and Care Pastor Jason Faulkner to discuss how understanding our personal and shared stories can transform the way we love, repair, and grow together in marriage. Drawing from decades of clinical wisdom, spiritual insight, and lived experience, Dan and Becky share the courage it takes to face conflict, the power of kindness in moments of rupture, and the art of repair that leads to deeper intimacy.This episode also offers a glimpse into the heart of the upcoming Allender Center Marriage Conference, where couples will be invited to move beyond techniques and “how-to's” and instead journey into the stories that shape their relationship. If you long for a marriage marked by care, honesty, and hope—even in the midst of complexity—this conversation will invite you to imagine what's possible.Learn more about the Allender Center Marriage Conference and reserve your spot at atltrinity.org/events.

   “It's not enough to build a system and then exit stage left when you realize it's broken. The ‘I'm sorry' is not the work — it's only the acknowledgment that work needs to be done. After the apology, you must actually do the repair. And what I see from her is the language of accountability without the actions that would demonstrate it. That's insufficient for real change.” Danielle (01:03):Well, I mean, what's not going on? Just, I don't know. I think the government feels more and more extreme. So that's one thing I feel people are like, why is your practice so busy? I'm like, have you seen the government? It's traumatizing all my clients. Hey Jeremy. Hey Jenny.Jenny (01:33):I'm in Charlottesville, Virginia. So close to Rebecca. We're going to soon.Rebecca (01:48):Yeah, she is. Yeah, she is. And before you pull up in my driveway, I need you to doorbell dish everybody with the Trump flag and then you can come. I'm so readyThat's a good question. That's a good question. I think that, I don't know that I know anybody that's ready to just say out loud. I am not a Trump supporter anymore, but I do know there's a lot of dissonance with individual policies or practices that impact somebody specifically. There's a lot of conversation about either he doesn't know what he's doing or somebody in his cabinet is incompetent in their job and their incompetency is making other people's lives harder and more difficult. Yeah, I think there's a lot of that.(03:08):Would she had my attention for about two minutes in the space where she was saying, okay, I need to rethink some of this. But then as soon as she says she was quitting Congress, I have a problem with that because you are part of the reason why we have the infrastructure that we have. You help build it and it isn't enough to me for you to build it and then say there's something wrong with it and then exit the building. You're not equally responsible for dismantling what you helped to put in place. So after that I was like, yeah, I don't know that there's any authenticity to your current set of objections,I'm not a fan of particularly when you are a person that in your public platform built something that is problematic and then you figure out that it's problematic and then you just leave. That's not sufficient for me, for you to just put on Twitter or Facebook. Oh yeah, sorry. That was a mistake. And then exit stage leftJenny (04:25):And I watched just a portion of an interview she was on recently and she was essentially called in to accountability and you are part of creating this. And she immediately lashed out at the interviewer and was like, you do this too. You're accusing me. And just went straight into defensive white lady mode and I'm just like, oh, you haven't actually learned anything from this. You're just trying to optically still look pure. That's what it seems like to me that she's wanting to do without actually admitting she has been. And she is complicit in the system that she was a really powerful force in building.Rebecca (05:12):Yeah, it reminds me of, remember that story, excuse me, a few years ago about that black guy that was birdwatching in Central Park and this white woman called the cops on him. And I watched a political analyst do some analysis of that whole engagement. And one of the things that he said, and I hate, I don't know the person name, whoever you are, if you said this and you hear this, I'm giving you credit for having said it, but one of the things that he was talking about is nobody wants you to actually give away your privilege. You actually couldn't if you tried. What I want you to do is learn how to leverage the privilege that you have for something that is good. And I think that example of that bird watching thing was like you could see, if you see the clip, you can see this woman, think about the fact that she has power in this moment and think about what she's going to do with that power.(06:20):And so she picks up her phone and calls the cops, and she's standing in front of this black guy lying, saying like, I'm in fear for my life. And as if they're doing anything except standing several feet apart, he is not yelling at you. He hasn't taken a step towards you, he doesn't have a weapon, any of that. And so you can see her figure out what her privilege looks like and feels like and sounds like in that moment. And you can see her use it to her own advantage. And so I've never forgotten that analysis of we're not trying to take that from you. We couldn't if we tried, we're not asking you to surrender it because you, if you tried, if you are in a place of privilege in a system, you can't actually give it up because you're not the person that granted it to yourself. The system gave it to you. We just want you to learn how to leverage it. So I would love to see Marjorie Taylor Greene actually leverage the platform that she has to do something good with it. And just exiting stays left is not helpful.Danielle (07:33):And to that point, even at that though, I've been struck by even she seems to have more, there's on the continuum of moral awareness, she seems to have inch her way in one direction, but I'm always flabbergasted by people close to me that can't even get there. They can't even move a millimeter. To me, it's wild.Well, I think about it. If I become aware of a certain part of my ignorance and I realize that in my ignorance I've been harming someone or something, I believe we all function on some kind of continuum. It's not that I don't think we all wake up and know right and wrong all the time. I think there's a lot of nuance to the wrongs we do to people, honestly. And some things feel really obvious to me, and I've observed that they don't feel obvious to other people. And if you're in any kind of human relationship, sometimes what you feel is someone feels as obvious to them, you're stepping all over them.(08:59):And I'm not talking about just hurting someone's feelings. I'm talking about, yeah, maybe you hurt their feelings, but maybe you violated them in that ignorance or I am talking about violations. So it seems to me that when Marjorie Taylor Green got on CN and said, I've been a part of this system kind of like Rebecca you're talking about. And I realized that ignoring chomp hyping up this rhetoric, it gets people out there that I can't see highly activated. And there's a group of those people that want to go to concrete action and inflict physical pain based on what's being said on another human being. And we see that, right? So whatever you got Charlie Kirk's murderer, you got assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King all throughout history we've seen these, the rhetoric and the violence turns into these physical actions. And so it seems to me like she had some awareness of what her contributing to that, along with the good old orange guy was doing contributes to violence. It seems to me like she inched in that direction.Rebecca (10:27):Yeah, like I said, I think you're right in that inching, she had my attention. And so then I'm waiting for her to actually do something substantive more than just the acknowledgement that I have been in error. And and I think part of that is that I think we have a way of thinking that the acknowledgement or the, I'm sorry, is the work, and it is not the, I'm sorry, is the acknowledgement that work needs to be done. So after you say, I'm sorry, now let's go do the work.Danielle (11:10):I mean our own therapeutic thing that we all went through that we have in common didn't have a concept for repair. So people are coming to therapy looking for a way to understand. And what I like to say is there's a theory of something, but there's no practical application of it that makes your theory useless in some sense to me or your theology, even if your ology has a theology of X, Y, Z, but you can't actually apply that. What is the use of it?Jenny (11:43):And I think that's best case scenario, and I think I'm a more cynical person than you are Danielle, but I see what's happening with Taylor Green and I'm like, this actually feels like when a very toxic, dangerous man goes to therapy and learns the therapy language and then is like it's my boundaries that you can't wear that dress. And it's like, no, no, that's not what we're doing. It's just it's my boundary that when there isn't that actual sense of, okay, I'm going to be a part of the work, to me it actually somehow feels potentially more dangerous because it's like I'm using the language and the optics of what will keep me innocent right now without actually putting any skin in the game.(12:51):Yeah, I would say it's an enactment of white womanhood. I would say it's intentional, but probably not fully conscious that it is her body moving in the way that she's been racially and gendered(13:07):Tradition to move. That goes in some ways maybe I can see that I've enacted harm, but I'm actually going to replicate the same thing in stepping into now a new position of performing white womanhood and saying the right things and doing the right things. But then the second an interviewee calls me out into accountability, I'm going to go into potentially white psychosis moment because I don't actually know how to metabolize the ways in which I am still complicit in the system. And to me, I think that's the impossibility of how do we work through the ways that these systems live in our bodies that isn't clean. It isn't pure, but I think the simplicity of I was blind now I see. I am very skeptical of,Rebecca (14:03):Yeah, I think it's interesting the notion that, and I'm going to misquote you so then you fix it. But something of like, I don't actually know how to metabolize these things and work them through. I only know this kind of performative space where I say what I'm expected to say.Jenny (14:33):Yeah, I think I see it as a both, and I don't totally disagree with the fact of there's not something you can do to get rid of your privilege. And I do think that we have examples of, oh goodness, I wish I could remember her name. Viola Davis. No, she was a white woman who drove, I was just at the African-American History Museum yesterday and was reminded of her face, but it's like Viola ela, I want to say she's a white woman from Detroit who drove down to the south during the bus boycotts to carpool black folks, and she was shot in the head and killed in her car because she stepped out of the bounds of performing white womanhood. And I do think that white bodies know at a certain level we can maintain our privilege and there is a real threat and a real cost to actually doing what needs to be done to not that we totally can abdicate our privilege. I think it is there, and I do think there are ways of stepping out of the bondage of our racial and gendered positions that then come with a very real threat.Rebecca (16:03):Yes. But I think I would say that this person that you're referring to, and again, I feel some kind of way about the fact that we can't name her name accurately. And there's probably something to that, right? She's not the only one. She's not the first one. She's not the last one who stepped outside of the bounds of what was expected of her on behalf of the Civil Rights Movement, on behalf of justice. And those are stories that we don't know and faces and names we cannot, that don't roll off the tip of our tongue like a Rosa Parks or a Medgar Evers or a Merley Evers or whoever. So that being said, I would say that her driving down to the South, that she had a car that she could drive, that she had the resources to do that is a leveraging of some of her privilege in a very real way, a very substantive way. And so I do think that I hear what you're saying that she gave up something of her privilege to do that, and she did so with a threat that for her was realizing a very violent way. And I would also say she leveraged what privilege she had in a way that for her felt like I want to offer something of the privilege that I have and the power that I have on behalf of someone who doesn't have it.(17:44):It kind of reminds me this question of is the apology enough or is the acknowledgement enough? It reminds me of what we did in the eighties and nineties around the racial reconciliation movement and the Promise Keepers thing and all those big conferences where the notion that the work of reconciliation was to stand on the stage and say, I realize I'm white and you're black, and I'm sorry. And we really thought that that was the work and that was sufficient to clear everything that needed to be cleared, and that was enough to allow people to move forward in proximity and connection to each other. And I think some of what we're living through 40, 45 years later is because that was not enough.(18:53):It barely scratched the surface to the extent that you can say that Donald Trump is not the problem. He is a symptom of the problem. To the extent that you could say that his success is about him stoking the fires that lie just beneath the surface in the realization that what happened with reconciliation in the nineties was not actually repair, it was not actually reconciliation. It was, I think what you're saying, Jenny, the sort of performative space where I'm speaking the language of repair and reconciliation, but I haven't actually done the work or paid the cost that is there in order to be reconciled.Danielle (19:40):That's in my line though. That's the continuum of moral awareness. You arrive to a spot, you address it to a certain point. And in that realm of awareness, what we've been told we can manage to think about, which is also goes back to Jenny's point of what the system has said. It's almost like under our system we have to push the system. It's so slow. And as we push the system out and we gain more awareness, then I think we realize we're not okay. I mean, clearly Latinos are not okay. They're a freaking mess. I think Mother Fers, half of us voted for Trump. The men, the women are pissed. You have some people that are like, you have to stay quiet right now, go hide. Other people are like, you got to be in the streets. It's a clear mess. But I don't necessarily think that's bad because we need to have, as a large group of people, a push of our own moral awareness.(20:52):What did we do that hurt ourselves? What were we willing to put up with to recolonize ourselves to agree to it, to agree to the fact that you could recolonize yourself. So I mean, just as a people group, if you can lump us all in together, and then the fact that he's going after countries of origin, destabilizing Honduras telling Mexico to release water, there is no water to release into Texas and California. There isn't the water to do it, but he can rant and rave or flying drones over Venezuela or shooting down all these ships. How far have we allowed ourselves in the system you're describing Rebecca, to actually say our moral awareness was actually very low. I would say that for my people group, very, very low, at least my experience in the states,Rebecca (21:53):I think, and this is a working theory of mine, I think like what you're talking about, Danielle, specifically in Latino cultures, my question has been when I look at that, what I see as someone who's not part of Latino culture is that the invitation from whiteness to Latino cultures is to be complicit in their own erasure in order to have access to America. So you have to voluntarily drop your language, drop your accent, change your name, whatever that long list is. And I think when whiteness shows up in a culture in that way where the request or the demand is that you join in your own eraser, I think it leads to a certain kind of moral ignorance, if you will.(23:10):And I say that as somebody coming from a black American experience where I think the demand from whiteness was actually different. We weren't actually asked to participate in our own eraser. We were simply told that there's no version of your existence where you will have access to what whiteness offers to the extent that a drop is a drop is a drop. And by that I mean you could be one 16th black and be enslaved in the United States, whereas, so I think I have lots of questions and curiosities around that, about how whiteness shows up in a particular culture, what does it demand or require, and then what's the trajectory that it puts that culture on? And I'm not suggesting that we don't have ways of self-sabotage in black America. Of course we do. I just think our ways of self-sabotage are nuanced or different from what you're talking about because the way that whiteness has showed up in our culture has required something different of us. And so our sabotage shows up in a different way.(24:40):To me. I don't know. I still don't know what to do with the 20% of black men that voted for Trump. I haven't figured that one out yet. Perhaps I don't have enough moral awareness about that space. But when I look at what happened in Latino culture, at least my theory as someone from the outside looking in is like there's always been this demand or this temptation that you buy the narrative that if you assimilate, then you can have access to power. And so I get it. It's not that far of a leap from that to course I'll vote for you because if I vote for you, then you'll take care of us. You'll be good and kind and generous to me and mine. I get that that's not the deal that was made with black Americans. And so we do something different. Yeah, I don't know. So I'm open to thoughts, rebuttals, rebukes,Jenny (25:54):My mind is going to someone I quote often, Rosa Luxembourg, who was a democratic socialist revolutionary who was assassinated over a hundred years ago, and she wrote a book called Reform or Revolution arguing that the more capitalism is a system built on collapse because every time the system collapse, those who are at the top get to sweep the monopoly board and collect more houses, more land, more people. And so her argument was actually against things like unions and reforms to capitalism because it would only prolong the collapse, which would make the collapse that much more devastating. And her argument was, we actually have to have a revolution because that's the only way we're going to be able to redo this system. And I think that for the folks that I knew that voted for Trump, in my opinion, against their own wellness and what it would bring, it was the sense of, well, hopefully he'll help the economy.(27:09):And it was this idea that he was just running on and telling people he was going to fix the economy. And that's a very real thing for a lot of people that are really struggling. And I think it's easier for us to imagine this paternalistic force that's going to come in and make capitalism better. And yet I think capitalism will only continue to get worse on purpose. If we look at literally yesterday we were at the Department of Environmental Protections and we saw that there was black bags over it and the building was empty. And the things that are happening to our country that the richest of the ridge don't care that people's water and food and land is going to be poisoned in exponential rates because they will not be affected. And until we can get, I think the mass amount of people that are disproportionately impacted to recognize this system will never work for us, I don't know. I don't know what it will take. I know we've used this word coalition. What will it take for us to have a coalition strong enough to actually bring about the type of revolution that would be necessary? IRebecca (28:33):Think it's in part in something that you said, Jenny, the premise that if this doesn't affect me, then I don't have any skin in this game and I don't really care. I think that is what will have to change. I think we have to come to a sense of if it is not well with the person sitting next to me, then it isn't well with me because as long as we have this mindset that if it doesn't directly affect me that it doesn't matter, then I think we're always sort of crabs in a barrel. And so maybe that's idealistic. Maybe that sounds a little pollyannaish, but I do think we have to come to this sense of, and this maybe goes along with what Danielle was saying about the continuum of moral awareness. Can I do the work of becoming aware of people whose existence and life is different than mine? And can that awareness come from this place of compassion and care for things that are harmful and hurtful and difficult and painful for them, even if it's not that way? For me, I think if we can get there with this sense of we rise and fall together, then maybe we have a shot at doing something better.(30:14):I think I just heard on the news the other day that I think it used to be a policy that on MLK Day, certain federal parks and things were free admission, and I think the president signed an executive order that's no longer true, but you could go free if you go on Trump's birthday. The invitation and the demand that is there to care only about yourself and be utterly dismissive of anyone and everyone else is sickening.Jenny (30:51):And it's one of the things that just makes me go insane around Christian nationalism and the rhetoric that people are living biblically just because they don't want gay marriage. But then we'll say literally, I'm just voting for my bank account, or I'm voting so that my taxes don't go to feed people. And I had someone say that to me and they're like, do you really want to vote for your taxes to feed people? I said, absolutely. I would much rather my tax money go to feed people than to go to bombs for other countries. I would do that any day. And as a Christian, should you not vote for the least of these, should you not vote for the people that are going to be most affected? And that dissonance that's there is so crazy making to me because it's really the antithesis of, I think the message of Jesus that's like whatever you do to the least of these, you are doing to me. And instead it's somehow flipped where it's like, I just need to get mine. And that's biblical,Rebecca (31:58):Which I think I agree wholeheartedly as somebody who identifies as a Christian who seeks to live my life as someone that follows the tenets of scripture. I think part of that problem is the introduction of this idea that there are hierarchies to sin or hierarchies to sort of biblical priorities. And so this notion that somehow the question of abortion or gay rights, transgendered rights is somehow more offensive to scripture than not taking care of the least of these, the notion that there's such a thing as a hierarchy there that would give me permission to value one over the other in a way that is completely dismissive of everything except the one or two things that I have deemed the most important is deeply problematic to me.Danielle (33:12):I think just coming back to this concept of I do think there was a sense among the larger community, especially among Latino men, Hispanic men, that range of people that there's high percentage join the military, high percentage have tried to engage in law enforcement and a sense of, well, that made me belong or that gave my family an inn. Or for instance, my grandfather served in World War II and the Korean War and the other side of my family, the German side, were conscientious objectors. They didn't want to fight the Nazis, but then this side worked so hard to assimilate lost language, didn't teach my mom's generation the language. And then we're reintroducing all of that in our generation. And what I noticed is there was a lot of buy-in of we got it, we made it, we made it. And so I think when homeboy was like, Hey, I'm going to do this. They're like, not to me,To me, not to me. It's not going to happen to me. I want my taxes lowered. And the thing is, it is happening to us now. It was always going to, and I think those of us that spoke out or there was a loss of the memory of the old school guys that were advocating for justice. There was a loss there, but I think it's come back with fury and a lot of communities and they're like, oh, crap, this is true. We're not in, you see the videos, people are screaming, I'm an American citizen. They're like, we don't care. Let me just break your arm. Let me run over your legs. Let me take, you're a US service member with a naval id. That's not real. Just pure absurdity is insane. And I think he said he was going to do it, he's doing it. And then a lot of people in our community were speaking out and saying, this is going to happen. And people were like, no, no, no, no, no. Well, guess what?Rebecca (35:37):Right? Which goes back to Martin Luther King's words about injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. The notion that if you're willing to take rights and opportunities and privileges from one, you are willing to take them from all. And so again, back to what Jenny said earlier, this notion that we rise our fall together, and as long as we have this mindset that I can get mine, and it doesn't matter if you don't get yours, there will always be a vulnerability there. And what you're saying is interesting to me, Danielle, talking about the military service in Latino communities or other whatever it is that we believed was the ticket in. And I don't think it's an accident or a coincidence that just around the time that black women are named the most educated and the fastest rising group for graduate and doctoral degrees, you see the dismantling of affirmative action by the Supreme Court.(36:49):You see now, the latest thing is that the Department of Education has come out and declassified a list of degrees as professional degrees. And overwhelmingly the degrees that are named on that list that are no longer considered professional are ones that are inhabited primarily by women and people of color. And I don't think that that is a coincidence, nor do I think it's a coincidence that in the mass firings of the federal government, 300,000 black women lost their jobs. And a lot of that is because in the nineties when we were graduated from college and getting our degrees, corporate America was not a welcome place for people of color, for black people, for black women. So we went into the government sector because that was the place where there was a bit more of a playing field that would allow you to succeed. And I don't think it is a coincidence that the dismantling intentionally of the on-ramps that we thought were there, that would give us a sense of belonging. Like you're in now, right? You have arrived, so to speak. And I am only naming the ones that I see from my vantage point. I hear you naming some things that you see from your vantage point, right? I'm sure, Jenny, you have thoughts about how those things have impacted white women.Jenny (38:20):Yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking about, we also went yesterday to the Native American Museum and I learned, I did not realize this, that there was something called, I want to say, the Pocahontas exception. And if a native person claimed up to one 14th of Pocahontas, DNA, they were then deemed white. What? And it just flabbergasted to me, and it was so evident just this, I was thinking about that when you were talking, Danielle, just like this moving target and this false promise of if you just do enough, if you just, you'll get two. But it's always a lie. It's always been a lie from literally the very first settlers in Jamestown. It has been a lie,Rebecca (39:27):Which is why it's sort of narcissistic and its sort of energy and movement, right? Because narcissism always moves the goalpost. It always changes the roles of the game to advantage the narcissist. And whiteness is good for that. This is where the goalpost is. You step up and meet it, and whiteness moves the goalpost.Danielle (40:00):I think it's funny that Texas redistricted based on how Latinos thought pre pre-migration crackdown, and they did it in Miami and Miami, Miami's democratic mayor won in a landslide just flipped. And I think they're like, oh, shit, what are we going to do? I think it's also interesting. I didn't realize that Steven Miller, who's the architect of this crap, did you know his wife is brownHell. That's creepy shit,Rebecca (40:41):Right? I mean headset. No, no. Vance is married to a brown woman. I'm sure in Trump's mind. Melania is from some Norwegian country, but she's an immigrant. She's not a US citizen. And the Supreme Court just granted cert on the birthright citizenship case, which means we're in trouble.(41:12):Well, I'm worried about everybody because once you start messing with that definition of citizenship, they can massage it any kind of way they want to. And so I don't think anybody's safe. I really don't. I think the low hanging fruit to speak, and I apologize for that language, is going to be people who are deemed undocumented, but they're not going to stop there. They're coming for everybody and anybody they can find any reason whatsoever to decide that you're not, if being born on US soil is not sufficient, then the sky's the limit. And just like they did at the turn of the century when they decided who was white and who wasn't and therefore who could vote and who could own property or who couldn't, we're going to watch the total and reimagining of who has access to power.Danielle (42:14):I just am worried because when you go back and you read stories about the Nazis or you read about genocide and other places in the world, you get inklings or World War I or even more ancient wars, you see these leads up in these telltale signs or you see a lead up to a complete ethnic cleansing, which is what it feels like we're gearing up for.I mean, and now with the requirement to come into the United States, even as a tourist, when you enter the border, you have to give access to five years of your social media history. I don't know. I think some people think, oh, you're futurizing too much. You're catastrophizing too much. But I'm like, wait a minute. That's why we studied history, so we didn't do this again. Right?Jenny (43:13):Yeah. I saw this really moving interview with this man who was 74 years old protesting outside of an nice facility, and they were talking to him and one of the things he said was like, Trump knows immigrants are not an issue. He's not concerned about that at all. He is using this most vulnerable population to desensitize us to masked men, stealing people off the streets.Rebecca (43:46):I agree. I agree. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think it's desensitizing us. And I don't actually think that that is Trump. I don't know that he is cunning enough to get that whoever's masterminding, project 2025 and all that, you can ask the question in some ways, was Hitler actually antisemitic or did he just utilize the language of antisemitism to mask what he was really doing? And I don't mean that to sort of sound flippant or deny what happened in the Holocaust. I'm suggesting that same thing. In some ways it's like because America is vulnerable to racialized language and because racialized rhetoric moves masses of people, there's a sense in which, let me use that. So you won't be paying attention to the fact that I just stole billions of dollars out of the US economy so that you won't notice the massive redistribution of wealth and the shutting off of avenues to upward social mobility.(45:12):And the masses will follow you because they think it's about race, when in actuality it's not. Because if they're successful in undoing birthright citizenship, you can come after anybody you want because all of our citizenship is based on the fact that we were born on US soil. I don't care what color you are, I do not care what lineage you have. Every person in this country or every person that claims to be a US citizen, it's largely based on the fact that you were born on US soil. And it's easy to say, oh, we're only talking about the immigrants. But so far since he took office, we've worked our way through various Latin cultures, Somali people, he's gone after Asian people. I mean, so if you go after birthright citizenship and you tell everyone, we're only talking about people from brown countries, no, he's not, and it isn't going to matter. They will find some arbitrary line to decide you have power to vote to own property. And they will decide, and this is not new in US history. They took whole businesses, land property, they've seized property and wealth from so many different cultures in US history during Japanese internment during the Tulsa massacre. And those are only the couple that I could name. I'm sure Jenny and Danielle, you guys could name several, right? So it's coming and it's coming for everybody.Jenny (47:17):So what are you guys doing to, I know that you're both doing a lot to resist, and we talk a lot about that. What are you doing to care for yourself in the resistance knowing that things will get worse and this is going to be a long battle? What does helping take care of yourself look like in that for you?Danielle (47:55):I dunno, I thought about this a lot actually, because I got a notification from my health insurance that they're no longer covering thyroid medication that I take. So I have to go back to my doctor and find an alternative brand, hopefully one they would cover or provide more blood work to prove that that thyroid medication is necessary. And if you know anything about thyroids, it doesn't get better. You just take that medicine to balance yourself. So for me, my commitment and part of me would just want to let that go whenever it runs out at the end of December. But for me, one way I'm trying to take care of myself is one, stocking up on it, and two, I've made an appointment to go see my doctor. So I think just trying to do regular things because I could feel myself say, you know what?(48:53):Just screw it. I could live with this. I know I can't. I know I can technically maybe live, but it will cause a lot of trouble for me. So I think there's going to be probably not just for me, but for a lot of people, like invitations as care changes, like actual healthcare or whatever. And sometimes those decisions financially will dictate what we can do for ourselves, but I think as much as I can, I want to pursue staying healthy. And it's not just that just eating and exercising. So that's one way I'm thinking about it.Rebecca (49:37):I think I'm still in the phase of really curating my access to information and data. There's so much that happens every day and I cannot take it all in. And so I still largely don't watch the news. I may scan a headline once every couple days just to kind of get the general gist of what is happening because I can't, I just cannot take all of that in. Yeah, it will be way too overwhelming, I think. So that still has been a place of that feels like care. And I also think trying to move a little bit more, get a little bit of, and I actually wrote a blog post this month about chocolate because when I grew up in California seas, chocolate was a whole thing, and you cannot get it on the east coast. And so I actually ordered myself a box of seas chocolate, and I'm waiting for it to arrive at my house costs way too much money. But for me, that piece of chocolate represents something that makes me smile about my childhood. And plus, who doesn't think chocolate is care? And if you live a life where chocolate does not care, I humbly implore you to change your definition of care. But yeah, so I mean it is something small, but these days, small things that feel like there's something to smile about or actually big things.Jenny (51:30):I have been trying to allow myself to take dance classes. It's my therapy and it just helps me. A lot of the things that we're talking about, I don't have words for, I can only express through movement now. And so being able to be in a space where my body is held and I don't have to think about how to move my body and I can just have someone be like, put your hand here. That has been really supportive for me. And just feeling my body move with other bodies has been really supportive for me.Rebecca (52:17):Yeah. The other thing I would just add is that we started this conversation talking about Marjorie Taylor Green and the ways in which I feel like her response is insufficient, but there is a part of me that feels like it is a response, it however small it is, an acknowledgement that something isn't right. And I do think you're starting to see a little bit of that seep through. And I saw an interview recently where someone suggested it's going to take more than just Trump out of office to actually repair what has been broken over the last several years. I think that's true. So I want to say that putting a little bit of weight in the cracks in the surface feels a little bit like care to me, but it still feels risky. I don't know. I'm hopeful that something good will come of the cracks that are starting to surface the people that are starting to say, actually, this isn't what I meant when I voted. This isn't what I wanted when I voted. That cities like Miami are electing democratic mayors for the first time in 30 years, but I feel that it's a little bit risky. I am a little nervous about how far it will go and what will that mean. But I think that I can feel the beginnings of a seedling of hope that maybe this won't be as bad as maybe we'll stop it before we go off the edge of a cliff. We'll see.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me…  Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Donations Resources (feminine hygiene products, and diapers, etc.)https://my.liberaforms.org/solidarity-kitchen-2Cash Pledges (100 percent goes to families)https://my.liberaforms.org/solidarity-kitchen-3Here is our plan: December 2, 2025 (Tuesday), 2:30 p.m. - 7 p.m., North Point ChurchServe up to 400 to go meals for students, parents and/or family members in our school district who have experienced the government shut down, food insecurity, or just plain tight times, with inflation and the job market.We will cook and pack to-go containers of meals, and be ready to send those off with students and/or families and/or caregivers. We will also have cash donations to put into envelopes, gift card donations to give away to those families that need additional support recovering from the shutdown or SNAP break. If folks would like to give to this, we are in process of setting up a secure format for it, in collaboration.TRANSCRIPTSDanielle (00:00):Cut it off. I just is so swamped with trying to respond to people's texts and calls. We have the whole system going, but I can explain more when we talk. It's justJenny (00:12):Okay. Oh my gosh. Yeah. We can do kind of a short one if that helps, or whatever feels supportive for you.I'm doing good. I'm thinking about the American Academy of Religions Conference this weekend. It kicks off tonight and I'll be presenting on my panel tomorrow, so I've been thinking about that.Yeah, I feel nervous, but I feel good. I feel really supported by the Purity Culture Research Collective and the colleagues and friends that I have there. So I mostly excited just to see folks coming in from all over, so I think it'll be a fun time.Danielle (01:02):Do you feel like you're going to be able to say what you want to say in the way you want to say it?Jenny (01:08):I think so. I keep reading over it again and again and tweaking it. It's hard to say what you want to say in five minutes, but,Oh goodness. I think there's eight of us. Eight or nine, I can't remember exactly. So we each get five minutes, but then it opens up into a q and a and sort of a discussion, so I'll have more time to expand on what I'm trying to say and it'll be fun to weave it together with other people.Danielle (01:42):It's interesting. I feel like we're all in these different places. We are physically sometimes, but even if we're in the same city and we're doing different things towards similar goals, that really strikes me. It's one reason I get excited about what you're doing.Oh, yeah, that's right. Well, I think I wrote in an email to friends to get it started. Basically what happened is we were at a band concert a month ago and it was the government shutdown, and my kids were talking about it and some of their classmates not having paychecks, their parents not having paychecks because we live in Kitsap County, and so there are two military, well, maybe there's three military bases in the area, so a lot of government funded work employees, the military obviously. And then also in our school district, I became aware that almost 30% of our students are either on SNAP or free and reduced lunch. So if you add that plus the level of the population of kids in our schools, either with parents in the military or in government position jobs, that's a lot of kids. And so I was like, oh, shit, what are we going to do? And I thought to myself, I was like, how can you not get on board with feeding kids? Really? They're innocent, they're young. I mean, we have plenty of riches in our county, in our country actually to do this should not be a thing. So that's kind of how it got started.Well, now it's called the Solidarity Kitchen. I'm like one member. There's many members of the Solidarity Kitchen, and we try to make decisions collaboratively. Some of us are better at some things like I'm not going to, I did take my food handlers permit test and passed it, by the way, today. Good job. I'm not going to be in charge. I'm not the expert at that. I like cooking for masses. So although I give input, there's other people that know more than me. There's also other people that know more about organizing volunteers or creating forms, and I dabbled a little bit in the art, but there's people that know more about how art should look and the words that need to go on art. I'm out here telling people, Hey, this is what we're about.(04:07):Would you like to join us? And trying to make space that's big enough for a lot of people to join in. It really felt like this collective consciousness movement. I go and I talk to someone, they're like, oh, we would love to do that. And it's like they've already thought of it. So it's not me trying to convince anybody to do anything or any of us, it's just like, oh, this is a need. This is something we can do. And we don't have to agree on a thousand things to get it done because I don't know. I know there are people in our government right now that are just wicked enough not to feed kids. We saw that as evidence, and I won't say any names. And also the new budget that's coming out in the big bill is going to cut snap benefits massively. So this is probably going to be an ongoing issue for kids, but it seems like a slam dunk to me. If you don't have food, if you don't have water, if you don't have shelter, if you don't have safety, how are you supposed to learn?Jenny (05:09):Yeah, right. I'm thinking about kids too and just how much their brains, their bodies are just burning through calories as they're growing, as they're learning, as they're developing. And of course every body needs food, but I think especially kids need a lot of food because their bodies are going through a lot of metabolism and a lot of change.Danielle (05:35):I think the collective messaging of the government saying basically, I've heard a lot of political pundits say, if you're on snap, if you're on free and reduced lunch, you're lazy. Your parents are lazy. Well, that's just not true. My kids have been on free and reduced lunch, and I remember the times when I was in grad school and we were living on one check, and I'm trying to go back to school to get paid, and you're literally short on money. Making lunches is expensive. And so to have that as an option increases capacity in other areas of your life. It's not that parents are lazy. It's not that parents aren't working jobs. So if that's the collective message, but what it does is it takes food out of the mouths of kids and kids, no matter what we say or think or believe, they are receiving that messaging that your parent might be lazy or your parent is leaching off the government or whatever these horrible tropes are that are spread by certain politicians. I won't say their names. I mean, do we think kids are really that dumb that they don't understand that, right? I mean, they get it. Yeah.Jenny (06:47):Right. When really the issue is hoarding, and I was thinking it's really actually pretty recent in human history that most people have even had to buy food. Food comes from the land, from the earth, from animals, from all of these things. And yet we have privatized and subsidized and commodified everything to make it so that you have to be able to have money to be able to afford food, which is just to me, I made this post recently where I just said, I cannot think of anything more opposite than Jesus' message of don't worry about what you'll eat, what you'll wear. Even the sparrows don't fret and the flowers bloom. And then this message from the government and from honestly, a lot of Christians is you should pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And Martin Luther King Jr. Said, if someone does not have boots, what a cruel thing to tell them. And if we live in a system that is intentionally hamstringing people's ability by not paying them what their labor is worth, by not providing childcare, by giving them crippling medical bills, of course something as simple as food should be becomes so complicated.Danielle (08:20):When I was in this theological and also, sorry, political discussion with family members, and I actually heard this verse preached in a sermon referenced Second Thessalonians three 10, which says, if anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. And in the context I heard it in was interpreted to mean, if you're not working tough, go get a job. So that's kind of the context and some of the theological foundation of what I've heard for why let's not do Snap, let's not do free and reduced lunch, et cetera, et cetera. But I think a more holistic approach would be to focus on what was the historical impression of that time? What did community accountability mean? What did it mean to do resource sharing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I think what I would call today, or not me friends and more wise people than me, and I'm using the term of mutual aid, and I don't know if they use mutual aid back then, but that's kind of what I think they're talking about. I don't know that it means showing up at a job and doing nine to five work, is what they were saying in that verse. I think it's contributing to your community.(09:41):And a lot of people that don't make hundred, 200 million, like a million dollars a year, they're contributing to our society and they don't get paid what they need to eat. That is also a sin.Jenny (09:58):Yes. Yeah. Sorry. It sure seems to me that Jesus spent a lot of time walking around talking and not a lot of time working. From what I read, gospelDanielle (10:10):Bro, Jesus relied on mutual aid too. He went fishing, he showed up people's houses, they fed him. There was a lot of trading going on.Jenny (10:20):Absolutely. Absolutely. So if someone wants to get involved in what you're doing and provide what they have towards a mutual aid and in service of what you're already doing, is that possible? Should they just go start their own thing? Is there a way they can get involved with what you're doing? What would you tell someone who's listening and is like, yeah, I want to get involved and help?Danielle (10:48):They definitely could give cash or a donation. We partnered with the Kitsap Immigrant Assistance Center Kayak here in Kitsap County, and they're like a fiscal partner. They're not a sponsor, but they're like adjacent to us help with Mutual aid. So there is the opportunity to donate through them and market for Solidarity Kitchen December 2nd. And I can put the link in the notes, but I think more importantly, if you're not here, yeah, please, I am not going to say, no, don't give us some cash or don't send us some menstrual supplies or whatnot. You can't donate food from that far away because we have to follow, be compliant with Washington Food law and standards. See, I know this now I took my test, but who in your community needs a gas card? Who needs a grocery card? Who could just use an envelope with a hundred bucks, a hundred bucks? What does that get you? Two bags of groceries or a hundred bucks to just shoot the breeze somewhere, sit down and have a coffee and a drink and go buy your groceries. I think there's this misconception if you give out cash, oh, they're just going to use it on booze and drugs. That's what I heard as a kid.(12:00):And now as an adult, I know that's rarely true. And why would we begrudge someone a little bit of cash to go out and have a coffee or have a drink or maybe get a date with their partner or enjoy a little bit better meat at the grocery store? That just seems so selfish and judgmental,Jenny (12:24):Totally. No, it makes me think of Tema, O K's, white supremacy, cultural norms, and it's so paternalistic that's like, I should decide how this other person spends their money when it's like that other person is a sovereign being living in their own body. And what if they get to decide what they eat and what they do with their body? What a concept that might be.Danielle (12:50):How do you see that kind of, I talk about this here and I know you're very supportive of me too, but how do you see that playing out in your day-to-day life? What does mutual aid look like for you?Jenny (13:01):Yeah, it does feel a little more complicated because my community is so broad right now. We're rarely in a place more than a week. And so it really is trying to be open to what's right in front of us. So a week ago, we were at this beautiful cafe in northern Maine that was doing a food drive and was collecting food, but the cafe was going to open itself up to make meals for everyone that was houseless for the holidays. And so we just gave them some cash and we're like, we're not going to be around anymore, but can you use this for the meals that you're going to be making? And they were like, absolutely.(13:50):We also look around, we end up picking up a fair amount of hitchhikers when we see someone along the road. And a ride is something we can try to do. So we look out for that. I consider you part of my community, even though you're literally on the other part of the country right now. And so those are some things I like to do. And I like what you said, there's some people that know how to cook. There's some people that know how to do art. I consider one of my gifts is networking and connecting people and saying, Hey, you need this other person has this. Let me connect you. And then also just trying to educate folks, because I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there about, since Reagan and the quote welfare queen and these racialized stereotypes and tropes of who needs money and who needs assistance.(14:53):One, white people need snap and assistance as well. And two, it doesn't do justice to the wealth disparity that exists because of hundreds of years of systemic racism and xenophobic rhetoric in our country, that there is a reality to the necessity of these systems right now to support bodies. And so I find myself trying to have difficult, frustrating conversations with family members or people I know that have maybe seen different news sources or things like that, that I have or have a very homogenous community where they don't often understand some of the source of suffering.Danielle (15:45):So if you could summarize for someone saying, well, I don't know anybody. I don't have anything. What I kind of hear you saying is that's okay. One, you can continue to reach out for that community and try to make efforts, but you can also, oh, no, are you paused? Oh, no. You can also reach out for those people and you can get started with what's present right in front of you. You can donate some cash to a friend. You can pick up what's safe for you, for you and Sean, you've decided it's actually safe to pick up a hitchhiker and you can get involved locally when you're around something. It doesn't have to be limited to what I'm talking about. The importance is to jump in and communicate love to people through different ways of giving. Where do we go from here? It feels like every day there's something hopeless happening. Yeah,Well, I think this is one way working and organizing and finding solidarity with friends in my area, but also just I have a family. I'm blessed with a family and just enjoying them, not trying to change anything about them, sitting with them, trying to meet them where they're at, reaching out to friends, calling, texting, saying, Hey. I mean, those are little ways. What about you?Jenny (17:33):Yeah, very similar. This conference feels hopeful to me that people are still trying to get together and understand how we can navigate hopefully a more ethical, equitable world. I've had the opportunity to just have some really sweet times connecting with friends who live around here recently and just sharing meals and catching up and just remembering how most people I think are really good and are really trying to do their best. And I need to be able to see that because I think the algorithm wants us to believe that people are mostly scary and bad and dangerous, and certainly there are scary and bad and dangerous people in the world. And I would say the majority of people that I tend to come into contact with in the flesh give me hope for the type of world that is possible.It is been mostly cold because we're in Boston and it's real cold, but it's also made me appreciate moments of sweet warmth even more. If we go to the YMCA and take a hot shower once every few days or sit in the sauna, it feels like it's a tiny little example of what we're talking about where it's like there are moments of goodness and hope breaking through even when things feel like they're really difficult. And in some ways that actually makes me savor those moments even more because I have honestly lived a very privileged life where most of my life, I didn't have to acknowledge a sense of hopelessness that I'm finding myself reckoning with now in a different way.Yeah. I'm giving my dog lots of snuggles. She sprained her paw on the beach the other day, and it's been very sad. She did limp around.Danielle (20:19):Well, how do you see yourself moving through then a time of Thanksgiving and a time when we, technically this is a time of being together and dah, dah, dah, and I know Thanksgiving has a lot of different meanings for a lot of different people, but just curious how you're thinking of that for yourself this year.Jenny (20:44):Yeah, I think I'm thinking about nuance and complexity and knowing that I will be sharing time with people who see the world very differently than I do and who are some of the most generous people I know. And it's not in my opinion, because they're terrible people that they see the world they do. It's because they've had certain influences. And I really appreciate the attempt to not split the world into all or nothing good or bad. That's very hard for me. I have a very strong tendency to just go, Nope, you're in the bad bucket now. And I would say in the last couple years, living in the van has taught me more about nuance and complexity and that you can never really pin someone down. I think people will always surprise you. And so I'm trying to go into the holiday and being open to hold nuance and also trying to grow my ability to not stay silent when I witness violence spoken.Danielle(22:19):Like I said, my family's everything to me. So we have some traditions that were started when the kids were little. One is making the favorite pie of everyone in the family. And so I'm in pie phase today. I wrote up a list of the pies I want to make, and really this week is an excuse to do it.So I'm looking forward to that. I'm also looking forward to being with one of my dear friends, one of my forever people, and it's an excuse for us to be together, and we're just going to sit likely and laugh and do nothing and take advantage of the time off. So I think those two things like connection and food feel good to me often, and they feel really good to me right now.Jenny (23:05):Yes. And connection and food sounds like so much a part of this day that you're organizing and that you're planning. What are your hopes for December 2nd?Danielle (23:18):Is it Yeah, December 2nd, just a Tuesday. Yeah. My hopes is that one that some people were, and this is a valid question, why not just get meal packages ready and then people can cook them and take them home? And I think one of the things was is there's so much love that goes into preparing a meal, and that felt like a ritual for me when I was thinking about doing it that I didn't want to forego. So one, I want to feel like this was cooked, this had intention, this had thought behind it, and it was a lot of work, and that's okay. It's because they love you. And I know that kids go around and often feel like can feel lonely or outcast, and I know adults are feeling that way too. And I just wanted this to be, this is one moment where you can bet someone thought of you and loved you.(24:09):That was one thing. So love is a main thing. Second, I wanted it to taste good. That's what I hope it tastes good to people. And third is that there's an imagination in our community that there's so many things against us forming and working and collaborating together, but I hope it gives imagination. There's the political world out there, and there's the practical way of it affects us in one way. I think it affects us, is separating us from our bodies and from each other. And I think to combat that or for any change to happen, we have to find common themes to gather around. And I mean, like I said, there's very few people that can say no to feeding kids, and I just think it's an easy Yes. Let's do it. Yeah. Sorry to talk so much. I have so much to say about it.Jenny (24:59):No, I think it's important, and honestly, it's inspiring and challenging in a good way of, I think it's almost easier sometimes to be like, oh, there's so much I don't know what I can do. And you're just like, yeah, you can make food for someone. It doesn't have to be as complicated as we tend to make it. And I have witnessed that be a part of who you are for many, many years now, and I always am inspired to do better in my own way when I see you living into that.What's your favorite pie?Danielle (25:43):It was my favorite pie. Well, I started making homemade pumpkin, and that's when I realized I really like pumpkin pie. You bake the pumpkins. Have you done this? You cutDude, you got to do it. You cut them in half, you clean out the seeds, you save that for later, and you don't want the hair in there. I don't know what it's called in English, that string stuff, and then you salt it with the big salts and you bake it. That to me, that is like, oh, it's so good. So I like homemade pumpkin pie, but I also like chocolate pecan pie. I do like pecan pie. I like pie.What about you? What's your favorite?Jenny (26:27):I love so many pies too. I like strawberry rhubarb pie. That's probably my favorite.Danielle (26:34):Oh, I didn't know that about you.Jenny (26:36):Yeah. I do love pumpkin pie. I do love a really cinnamony apple pie. I had a Mexican chocolate pie once that was spicy. It was so good. Yeah, we actually had it at our wedding. We don't really like cake, so we did just a bunch of pies and it was so good. ThatMan. Okay. Okay. Now I really want some pie. Our oven in doesn't work, sadly, so we can't make pie.Danielle (27:08):You need to get another way of doing that, then you cannot not have pie.Jenny (27:14):I know. We'll be at some families next week, so I'm going to make them make a pie. Well,     Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Cathy Loerzel is the co-founder and Executive Vice President of The Allender Center, an organization focused on healing trauma through the power of story, psychology, and theology. She works closely with Dr. Dan Allender to train therapists, pastors, and leaders in narrative-focused care. Cathy is also the co-author of Redeeming Heartache: How Past Suffering Reveals True Calling, which explores how pain and trauma can become sources of purpose and restoration. With a background in counseling and community development, she is known for her compassionate, insightful approach to helping people understand their stories and reclaim their identities. Beyond her leadership and writing, Cathy is a frequent speaker and teacher on topics of redemption, identity, and relational wholeness. http://www.worshipcircle.com

"Send us a message! (questions, feedback, etc.)"Suffering. We don't like it. Most of us probably don't even like the word. Suffering brings to mind experiences of abuse, neglect, rejection, abandonment... traumatic events that lodged themselves into our lives as long-term traumas. How do we get away from suffering?Our guest CATHY LOERZEL gives an answer many won't like. We don't get away from suffering. It is inevitable and unavoidable in this life. We are made for perfect care, yet none of us receives care perfectly or completely. But the fact that suffering is going to be part of life doesn't have to be defeating or depressing.As a speaker, coach, co-founder of The Allender Center, and co-author (with Dan Allender) of Redeeming Heartache: How Past Suffering Reveals our True Calling," Cathy has given us a gift as she helps us understand what it's like to "make friends with the reality of suffering." Our conversation visits how to "be with" the suffering we face, and to see how God meets us, heals us, and changes us as we walk through whatever kind of suffering we encounter.Cathy's websiteRedeeming Heartache (on Amazon)Retreats & Workshops offered by The Allender Center#cathyloerzel #storywork #storyworkcoach #redeemingheartache #suffering #trauma #addiction #healing #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation #awaken #awakenrecovery #awakenpodcast #whatwereallywant #wwrw  #connection #conversation  Support the showAwaken websiteRoots Retreat Men's IntensiveRoots Retreat Women's WorkshopAwaken Men & Women's support meeting info (including virtual)

In Episode 5, Karrie named the first step to healing involves connection with our own story. This week, Karrie is joined by Cathy Loerzel, one of the co-founders of the Allender Center, as well as an author, speaker, and story work coach, to continue the discussion of using story work as a tool for healing and how reconnecting to our story can lead us back to our true self . When do we know we need to look at places in our stories? When behaviors and patterns keep arising that prevent us from being who God wanted us to be. Why can't we just know something happened? Why do we need to go through a story at a granular level? Cathy explains that when trauma becomes embedded, we sometimes need to feel it again with an empathetic witness in order to process out what has been stored in the body. Kathy and Karrie share more about the consequences of stored trauma and how maladaptive behavior is created. We are sharing all of the resources mentioned here if you'd like to learn more: Redeeming Heartache by Dan Allender and Cathy Loerzelhttps://a.co/d/bak3lliWhole Brain Child by Daniel Siegel and Tina Payne Brysonhttps://a.co/d/hA5GQhRThe Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolkhttps://a.co/d/cbNMbzfBrain Talk by David Schnarchhttps://a.co/d/gaK3Z0xTo learn more about the work of Cathy Loerzel visit her on Instagram @cathy.loerzelSacred Interruptions Retreathttps://www.sacredinterruptionretreats.comKarrie's Instagram: @karriescottgarciaKarrie's Website: karriegarcia.comFreedom Movement Instagram: @freedom_movementFreedom Movement Website: wearefm.orgSign up for Freedom Movement Trainings: https://www.wearefm.org/trainingsFind Story Work Retreat info & sign-ups:https://www.karriegarcia.com/work-with-karriePurchase Karrie's book Free & Fully Alive!https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310366445?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_A6200T1AKD7FS2PZ8VA1Book Karrie for Speaking Engagements:https://www.karriegarcia.com/book-karrie Music by Tanya Godsay

What does it take to cultivate real transformation in a faith community? Not just busier programs or better Bible studies, but real change – mind, body, and soul? In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen talk with Petra Malekzadeh, Facilitation Development Manager at the Allender Center, about what it looks like to bring story work into the life of a local church.  Drawing on her years of ministry leadership and her training in Narrative Focused Trauma Care®, Petra shares both the challenges and beauty of inviting people to engage their stories as part of discipleship. Listen in to explore: Why story work belongs at the heart of spiritual formation The importance of leadership buy-in and shared language How to navigate resistance and build trust What becomes possible when vulnerability is honored This conversation invites you to imagine a church where story work isn't a side ministry—it's how we grow into the people God is calling us to be.