Podcasts about purity movement

BIO: Sandra Van OpstalEXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND CO-FOUNDER OF CHASING JUSTICESandra Maria Van Opstal, a second-generation Latina, is Co-Founder and Executive Director of Chasing Justice, a movement led by people of color to mobilize a lifestyle of faith and justice . She is an international speaker, author, and activist, recognized for her courageous work in pursuing justice and disrupting oppressive systems within the church. As a global prophetic voice and an active community member on the west-side of Chicago, Sandra's initiatives in holistic justice equip communities around the world to practice biblical solidarity and mutuality within various social and cultural locations.https://chasingjustice.com/sandra-van-opstal/ Giving in Chicago: https://newlifecenters.org/ Ordg to follow in chicagohttps://www.icirr.org/ Tshirt https://secure.qgiv.com/for/peoplearenotillegalt-shirt/Danielle (00:09):good afternoon, y'all. I have a second video coming to you from my dear friend and colleague in Chicago, Humboldt Park area, a faith leader there that collaborates with the different faith communities in the area. And she's going to talk about some ways she's personally affected by what's happening by the invasion there and how you can think about things, how you might get involved. I hope you'll join me in this conversation and honor yourself. Stay curious, honor, humanity, get involved. Take collective action. Talk to your own neighbor. Let's start caring really well for one another.Oh wow. Sandra, you know me. This is Jenny McGrath. This is my colleague. She's a bible nut. She wrote out the Bible How many times?Like scripture nut and a researcher, a therapist and purity culture, kind of like Survivor, but did a lot of work with women around that. And we talk a lot about race and current events. And I restarted my podcast and I asked Jenny if she'd want to join me. She has a great love for justice and humans and making a difference. So that's kind of how Jenny joined up with me. Right. Anything else you want to say?Sandra, I saw your post on social media and I was like, I could do that. I could contribute to that. And so that's what I'm here to do. Want to hear about your experience. What does resilience look like for you all over there? What do you need from us? How can we be a part of what's happening in Chicago from wherever we are? And if there's practical needs or things you want to share here, we can also send those out.Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, where you're located in Chicago, and just a little bit even about your family, if you're willing?Sandra (01:40):Yeah, sure. So it's great to be with you guys. I'm Sandra Van Opal and I'm here on the west side of Chicago in a neighborhood called Humble Park. It's if you see in the news with all that's happening, it's the humble Hermosa, Avondale kind of zone of the ice crackdown. Well, let's not call it a crackdown. The ice invasion(02:06):Here in Chicago. I am the daughter of immigrants, so my mom is from Columbia. My father was from Argentina. They came to live in Chicago when they were in their twenties and thirties. They met in English class, so they were taking TOEFL exams, which is an exam you take in order to enter into college and schooling here in the US to show your language proficiency. And so they met learning English and the rest is history. I grew up here. I've lived here my whole life. I'm raising my family here. I'm married. I have two kids that just turned 11, so they're in fifth grade and sixth grade. And the school that they go to is a primarily immigrant school immersion, Spanish immersion. So it's a school where you take classes basically 90% in Spanish when you start and you move every year a little bit more English until you graduate when you're 50 50.(03:03):And so the school context they've been in has been receiving a lot of new neighbors, a lot of new classmates. And for that reason, actually most of their classes are still almost fully in Spanish, so they should probably be 60 40 right now. But I think a lot of their curriculum is still in Spanish, or the children have the option of having the math book in Spanish or English if they want it. If they're supposed to be English Spanish, or sorry, English math this year, then they might choose to have a Spanish book even if the instruction is in English. So that's the context I live in. I am here. I live in a home. I have chickens and a garden, and I love to be outside watching my neighbors and connecting with people. And we have a black club in our community, so a lot of our information that we're sharing with each other is through our email list and our signal group. Yeah. Oh, also what I do, I run an organization called Chasing Justice, which is focused on the intersection of faith and making the world a better place. And I am a local pastor and author on issues of worship and justice. So that's my function in this world.Danielle (04:31):I think we talk about what's happening in one sense, it seems like social media and other ways like Zoom, we're on a screen with Zoom and we're all in three different locations right now. We think of ourselves as really connected. But then when tragedy strikes or trauma or an invasion, for instance, strikes, we're connected, but it seems like we're also disconnected from one another and the practical needs and storytelling on the ground, and what does resilience look like for one person versus another? Or what does survival versus thriving look like for one person versus another? And how do we kind of join together and form a collective bond in that? I've been thinking a lot about that after I read your post Sandra on Instagram and what does that mean for me? And just as I'm talking, what does that mean for you or what are thoughts that come to mind for you?Sandra (05:27):Yeah, I am think I remember what posts you're referring to, but I think part of it is whenever something happens in our world, I believe that because of the highly digitally connected world that we're in, it feels like we are all supposed to say something. That's how we respond. Something happens and we all go, that's not right, which I think is good, we should say that, but I think the frustration, I'm sure people in LA and DC felt that, but it's like something is happening in your real life every day to your neighbors and everybody all around the country is commenting on it and commenting with such confidence and commenting with such expertise, and you're like, wait a minute. That's not how I would say that. And I think the reason that maybe that post came up for me as a kind of, it was less frustration and more sorrow, I think it felt more, more sorrow that the people that are most impacted by the issues are not the ones that are given the voice to talk about how those systems of oppression are impacting them. And I think the reason I think about things like that is I remember when I first started pastoring locally here. I mean, I had been working for a parachurch organization doing national and international work. I really felt like it was time for me to become a local pastor to understand, hey, if I'm going to be writing to pastors and speaking to pastors and challenging pastors, I should probably know what it's like to be one. And so I was supposed to be a five year stint, which ended up being 12 years pastoring locally.(07:08):And in my discussions with my staff team, I would often have one of them very respectfully, I was the executive pastors in a community with hierarchy. So they would very respectfully say, Hey, your friends that are out there blogging and writing articles and books, they're talking about stuff in ways we would never talk about it. They're talking about it in a tone that we would never use to talk about our situation and with words we would never use to describe our situation. And it's not that my friends maybe didn't have a perspective, it's that it didn't reflect their perspective. And so I think I became very sensitive to that, paying attention to, oh, how do expert justice people talk about issues of justice versus the people that are most impacted by those issues of injustice? Or how do people from within a community express their journey in ways that maybe even have a different tone than mostly anger that was coming out from the justice space?(08:10):And they're like, we wouldn't say it that way. We wouldn't talk about it that way. So I think because of that, it's really important when something happens in a local space and it is impacting us all nationally, national news, that we ask the question, how can I hear the voices of the people that this is most impacting? And so that's why I think I wrote that post. I was like, A lot of y'all have a lot to say about Chicago who don't live here and thank you, but no thank you. Invite us to talk for ourselves, invite us to speak for ourselves because there are local pastors and priests and imams and mental health providers who are experiencing this in a very real way that they probably could shed some light on what would be helpful to us. I called a bunch of friends in Los Angeles when things were happening there, and I was like, oh, how are you guys doing?(09:05):What's really happening? How can we help? If you don't have time to reply back, just know that I'm here praying for you, and I'm like with you and I'm sending money to the orgs. I see you posting and don't know what else to do. Obviously, the ice raids are impacting all of us across the country, but they're impacting each city in very different ways. Each city is a very different city with a very different ethos and a way of handling things. And as you guys know, Chicago is the best. I'm so proud of us right now. I'm so proud of us. We're like, no, you can't talk to us like that. No, you can't have our streets. But it also gets us into trouble because it's rooted in our philosophy of community organizing, though the linsky method, which is agitation, agitation, agitation. So we have stuff to learn too. But that's what you're seeing in Chicago is a lot of agitation. But yeah, that's why I wrote it. I wrote it like, I know 20 community leaders you could talk to here in Chicago that would give you a good idea of what we're experiencing and what would be best for us if you wanted to come alongside of us and help in prayer. So yeah.Jenny (10:27):Yeah, I think just a sense of wanting to hear more, whatever you feel. Well, and whatever feels safe to share in this podcast setting of just what it has been like for you to be on the ground in the community that you're in, in the roles that you're in with the family you're in. I just find myself curious about your experience.Sandra (10:52):Yeah. Okay. So I think about this in three different areas. One is, how is this impacting me as a parent, the other in my family and connected to family members. The other one is how is this impacting me as a neighbor? And then the other is, how is this impacting me as a civic leader, as a faith leader here? And so the hardest one has actually been, as a parent, if I could be honest with you, it's really been hard. Those of us that have raised kids, especially younger children or well all children, they each have their own season of development. But raising kids and being a village for children right now I think is really hard. They've gone through lockdown, George Floyd protests, watching multiple genocides, a war in Ukraine, and now this locally. And I believe in talking to your kids about what's happening and talking to them about it in ways that is appropriate for their age. So that has changed for me since my children were five when the pandemic started and now they're 11. That has changed for me what that looks like.(12:32):But there are many families, dozens of families in their school that have not returned since the ice raids have started. Their friends are missing from class. Ice has repeatedly been around their school. Ice has been on our corner where we grocery shop, get tacos, go to therapy. My son asked me the other day, will they throw me on the ground? If they see me, will they throw me on the ground? And this is one of my sons already struggles a lot with anxiety and he has anxiety, and he's also a black child. And so he's already been processing being black in the context of law enforcement in our city and what's happened. And so I think he kind of went through that season and he's like, so will they throw me on the ground if they see me? And I'm like, no, buddy. They're not going to. Hopefully there's enough cameras around that they'll throw you on the ground.(13:42):And so I think trying to figure out how to answer those kinds of questions. How can we think about our friends? How can we pray for our friends? We've done a lot more prayer in the 15 minute commutes to and from school, I think just for very specific needs that our neighbors are going through. And neighbor that I live in close proximity to the other day was running an errand and was detained by ice and was let go on the spot in the parking lot of the Home Depot, but its someone our kids know really well and helping them to process that. Their friend, a neighbor has gone through this, I think requires a different set of parenting skills and I believe are in most parenting books.(14:48):And so I find myself almost, man, I wish there was a resource for that man. I wish there was a place to talk about that. Let me talk to my neighbor about how they talk to their kids about that. And for those of us that come from Latino cultures, we don't really talk about hard things a lot. We're not really taught to talk about them. It's like we endure them and we go through them, but we don't give them space for processing. And so both of my children are in therapy. I don't know what they talk about in therapy, probably girls and love interests and bullying and all the rest of the things that kids talk about, but I think they probably unpack some of what they're going through with their friends. They are also wanting to make a difference. So we're trying to figure out what does that look for them to make things good in the community they live in.(15:42):So that's the first area is parenting. I don't know if you guys have anything to add advice to give me on that, but I think the hardest thing for me is what do we do with our children? What do we do with a generation that is growing up, watching their government step over so many boundaries, doing things that are completely illegal or unethical or dangerous for our society and feeling like, Hey, we're living in a time, I know a lot of people posted the quote from Ann Frank talking about what was happening in their streets. And I'm like, yeah, my kids are watching that. And I don't know how they're processing it or where they see their faith in the midst of that. I mean, luckily we have an amazing church. We talk about stuff like that all the time. So I mean, yeah, the mayor goes to our church and the pastor's an amazing person, and we have lots of civic leaders and law enforcement in our church. So I think they're watching, they're able to have some mentorship in that area, I think because spoken about from the pulpit, but man, being little must be really hard right now.Danielle (17:09):Maybe we don't need to press too fast, even though we're in a podcast right now. I think it bears the weight of just a little bit of space to just hang with that comment. I have older kids than you. As recently, I told my 20-year-old son who we are not suffering yet, the street raids. For some reason, Seattle hasn't been the focus point yet, but he did lose his federal aid and his Pell grants and everything for college this year. And so him and a lot of other kids had a significant do have a significant college tuition to make up. And we were talking about it and I was like, well, this will be the normal for you. This will be what's normal. This will be what's normal for our family. And my husband actually stepped in and said to me in a moment of despair and lament, because my son wants to be a music teacher.(18:21):He said to me, he's like, but you always tell me nothing's impossible. We can figure it out. And I was like, yeah, I do say that, but I don't believe it right now. He is like, well, he's like, I believe it right now. So I don't know what it looks like to come up with an extra for us. It's an extra $6,000, so we don't have the money yet, but what does it look like? But I think it goes back to that sense of finding some balance with our kids of what's real, what's not giving. What I hear for you, Sandra, and I'm kind of fumbling through my words, so maybe Jenny can step in, but offering our kids the validation of their reality that's so important in age appropriate and the different steps we're in the validation of reality. But I also find myself searching and grasping for where's the hope? Where are the strands of faith for our family? Where are the strands of hope searching for? Like you said, what are the practical actions your boys can do that also kind of I think plant seeds and generate hope in their hearts when we can step out and do actions?Sandra (19:43):Yeah. No, I think the hard part is I can't promise them things will get better. I can't promise them there's going to be an end to genocide in Palestine. I can't promise them. I keep telling everyone, when we pray at night and we talk about our days and stuff, and I just tell 'em, we, my husband and I tell 'em, and the only thing we can promise you is that God is with us. And I think the reality is when you've had proximity to our global siblings, that suffering didn't just start two Octobers ago or even for our own families. The suffering as my African brother once told me at a conference, he said, what do you mean when we suffer? Life is suffering and suffering is life. Or if we suffer, someone said, yeah, if we suffer, it's like some pretty from the west if we suffer.(20:35):It's like no, life is suffering and suffering is life. So I think part of it is we have within our story as people who follow the Jesus way, we have a story of people who have really always suffered. The story of scripture is a story of marginalized, persecuted, displaced people that are wandering in a land looking for home. And in those stories, you find God's presence with them. You find the worship of their creator. You find moments of joy, rhythms of feasting and fasting. You find all the traditions we do now that come out of the story of the people. So I can tell them, baby, I can only promise you that God is with us the same way that God was with, we go through the stories and the same way that God has always been with the black church in America, the same way that God has always been with our Latino community, the same way that God is with our siblings in Gaza, God is with us.(21:35):And so it doesn't take the pain away, but we can know that God is there. I try to teach my kids, lemme tell you, this is so bad parenting. Sorry, you can cut this out if you need to. But the other day we were praying for our country and I said, God, I just pray. Pray for Trump. I pray God, either you would change his heart or you would help him to go to sleep and just not wake up tomorrow. And then my son was like, I can't believe you prayed that prayer. Mom, I can't believe you said that. That's such a bad prayer. I was like, have you read the Psalms?(22:12):I was like, tonight, let's read a psalm. I'm going to read to you what David prayed for his enemies. And just because the Bible calls us to love our enemies and to see them as human does not mean we cannot pray that they will fall asleep. And so I said, I'm not saying I'm going to do anything bad. I know my phone's listening to me right now. I'm not saying I'm going to take matters into my own hands. I'm just saying I wouldn't be sad. That's all. And he's like, he just could not get over it because, and he just kept digging. Papa, Papa would never pray a prayer like that. He would never, I said, Papa hasn't read the Psalms. I read the Psalms. I know exactly what the Psalms say. And I was like, and the thing is because God is for good, because God is against evil and because God knows my heart, he knows God knows how much I love him, and I'm asking him to please take this evil away from our neighborhood.(23:04):Please take this evil away from our country. Please take this evil away. We're living in evil times, Terry. These are bad times. And this is not only a bad person. This is somebody that's raising up all of the badness to be allowed. And so I'm going to pray that prayer every day. And I know that you think it's not good, and I'm so sorry, but tonight we'll read the Psalms. Then that night we read some Psalms. I was like, see what David prays for his enemy. I said, and the thing is, God is there with us in our prayers. He's not like, what? I can't believe she cussed. I can't believe she said that bad. I can't believe she want to be friends with this guy that's too evil. And so I think part of it's processing faith with them. It's like, I don't know what kind of, let's just talk about Jesus and what he said. Let's talk about what the Bible models for us and prayer. Let's talk about It's okay to be mad. It's okay. It's okay to want evil to end. It doesn't mean we take things into our own hands, but it's okay to want the evil to end. And so those are the kinds of conversations where I go home, I'm like, okay, let me just look at my stuff. Is that wrong? Is that theologically correct? I called my husband. Do you think this is theologically okay? Am I mal forming our children? But I feel like it's an okay prayer, isn't it an okay prayer? Those are the kinds of things that are happening. I don't know,Jenny (24:37):I mean, I am not a theologian, but I think it's an okay prayer to pray. And I'm just thinking about, I've had two thoughts going through my mind, and one of course I couldn't and wouldn't want to put on some type of silver lining and be like, kids are going to be fine. They're resilient. And something that we say in the somatic trauma world a lot is that trauma isn't about an event. It's often about not having a safe place to go in the midst of or after an event. And what I just keep hearing is you making yourself available to be a safe place for your kids to process and reimagine what moving through this moment looks like. And also holding that in families that are being torn apart, that don't have those safe places to go in this moment. And I think part of what we're experiencing is this term, the boomerang of imperialism, as you said, these are not new things happening to families all over the world. And the ricochet of how we are now experiencing that in the heart of the empire, where I find my sense of hope is that that is the sign that the snake is eating its head and it will collapse. And I believe in rebirth and regrowth and hope that we can create a world that is different than a world that builds empires that do this to families. And as where my mind goes.Sandra (26:39):Yeah. And I think for ourselves, for our children, for in the work that I do with chasing justice with activists, it's like the only thing I can do, I'm not going to be able to change the world. The only thing I can do is change the little world that I'm in. So what can I do to make a difference and make things good in the world that I'm in? And so it boils down to very, very practical, tangible, embodied unfancy. Things like calling your neighbors and checking in on them to see if they need you to take their kids to school, finding out if everybody got home, okay. When there was a raid in a particular area, asking, or not even asking, but dropping food off for people and saying, Hey, we made a grocery room. We just thought we'd pick up some essentials for everybody.(27:27):Because part of it too is how do you do that without asking your, how do you help your neighbor without asking your neighbor their status? And that's not appropriate. And how do you help your neighbor without assuming they don't have money or making them feel like some kind of project? And so I think part of it is figuring out how to practice mutual aid in ways that are communal that just says, Hey, we picked up this. We figured this week we'd drop it off to five different families, and next week we'll do five other families. Who knows if they need it or not, but at least they know you're thinking of them. I think something you said about trauma, which I think is really important when you work in communities where you have communal, collective, complex generational trauma, which is we're just always living in this.(28:19):I have status, so I don't worry about leaving my home. I also am white. I'm a white Latina, so I'm not like, well, maybe they'll pull me over. Well, I don't know. But I know if I was browner my other family members that would definitely be like, please carry a copy of your passport and your ID at all times. But now I don't leave the house without, I used to leave the house with my keys and my phone, maybe a wallet. I don't know where a wallet is. Now I'm like, oh, I better have my ID on me(28:48):Mostly because if I intervene, I'm afraid if I get arrested, I won't have ID on me. But I think about all the ways that you have to leave the house differently now. And this is for people that they already felt vulnerable in their TPS, in their temporary protective status status or in their undocumented status or in their green card holder status or whatever status they had, that they already felt vulnerable in some way. And now if they don't go to work, their family doesn't eat, so they leave the house. But how do they leave the house? If you go to school every day and you're wondering if your parents are going to pick you up because now you're aware you have this emergency family plan, what does that feel like day in and day out, decade after decade to feel vulnerable? That kind of trauma is something I don't understand in my body, though I understand it as a concept.(29:47):It's the trauma of feeling vulnerable at all times of sending your kids out into the world. And because our US Supreme Court and because our government has decided it's okay to racially profile people, so I keep telling my mom, you better not be speaking Spanish at Target. She's bilingual. I'm like, please do not speak Spanish at Target. Do not open your mouth. And I would never have said that ever in the past, super proud of being a Latina and being bilingual, but I'm scared for my mom. And so I'm checking in on family members who have vulnerable status. I'm trying to find out if everybody's okay. So I think there are, it's like I told my husband the other day, and the car was like, can you imagine having this kind of fear day in and day out for decades at a time in a country and building a life?(30:44):And all of a sudden, many of our DACA recipients or young undocumented folks that are in college, all of a sudden they're not going to finish their degree. They're now in a country they don't even know. They didn't grow up there in a language they don't understand or their spouse is missing. And now they don't know if they're in Swatee, they don't know if they're in Mexico. They don't know where they are. And so I think that, I don't know that I fully understand what to do about that as a neighbor or as a pastor, but to say there must be something within the community like some gift or strength or accessing that helps them endure that kind of trauma when they cannot reach out for help.(31:44):My brother also told me the other day, he's an ER doctor. He's like, man, the county ER is so empty right now because people go to the county hospital for services when they don't have insurance. And many, many of them are Asian, south Asian, Latino, and African immigrants, and now they're not going or Ukrainian or Russian or whatever. So now it's emptiness and churches. Some of our churches are used to be 300 people now. There's like 40 people on a Sunday. So the reporting that I'm hearing from, whether it's the hospitals or just the stores, if you drive down our street, it's like empty nest. It is never empty. There's always people walking around on the street, whole family is going grocery shopping now. There's just nobody out. It's like a ghost town. Nobody's leaving unless they have to leave. And so it changes the feel of a community. It changes the environment. People that need access to healthcare aren't going for their follow-up appointments or their treatments because they're afraid to go to the hospital. People that would normally go to law enforcement if there's domestic violence or something happening, which already would feel very, very difficult to do, are unwilling to do it because they're afraid to leave and afraid to report to any law enforcement. Even in a sanctuary city.(33:18):I don't know what's happening to these families that aren't going to school. I'm assuming that the school has some kind of e-learning doing for them or some kind of packets they're making for the kids in the meantime while they're missing school. But there's all these things that daily rhythms of life that aren't happening. And so for many of us are like, I don't feel like going to church today. Oh, well, I feel like I'm many Sundays. I don't feel like going to church for other people, the privilege of attending worship in a congregational setting is something they'd love to have that they just can't access anymore. And so there's all these things that have changed about our daily reality that I don't know if we're going to fully understand how that's impacted us until years from now. We just don't see an end to it. We're not sure when this is going to end.Danielle (34:13):I have a flurry of thoughts going through my mind as you're speaking. One is when I did a consult with my analyst that I consult with, and we were talking about anxiety around different things with clients, and she was like, well, that's not anxiety, that's terror. And this person should feel terror because that's the reality.(34:45):That's not a pathology. So that's number one just in the therapy world, we don't want to pathologize people for feeling this terror in their bodies when that's actually the appropriate response. When immigration is sitting outside on your street, you should feel terror. Your body's giving you the appropriate warning signal. So I think about just even the shortcomings of Western psychological frameworks to address what's happening. We can't pathologize. It's not about prescribing enough medication. It's not about that. I do think you're right. I think there's some sense of, I've even felt it in my own body as you talk, a sense of, I'm going to engage what Sandra's saying and I'm also going to separate myself just enough in case that happens in Seattle so I can be just distant enough. So I got to get up, I got to eat. I got to feed my kids, I got to make sure everything's happening, got to go to work.(35:40):So I can almost feel it happening. As you describe it, we call it dissociation in psychology world, but in my analyst world, she would call it a psychic retreat, which I really like. Your psyche is kind of in a battle. You might come back from the front line to preserve yourself. And that's kind of how I think of the collective mentality a bit come back from the front lines in certain ways. So you could preserve, I need to eat, I need to sleep, I need to drink some water. I need to breathe air. So that's one thing I'm thinking about that's maybe collectively happening on multiple levels. The other thing I'm thinking about is if you're listening to this and you're in a body, even mine, a same as you, like a light-skinned Latina, white Latina, and our family has a lot of mixed identities and statuses, but if you're not in one of these situations, you can help mental health by going out and getting shit done.Sandra (36:50):Yes, absolutely. Get it done, get it done, get it done. It's like show up, put yourself. I think that's half the battle is how do we show up in spaces? I think white folks have to ask themselves. That's why all the protests, it's like, yes, it's diverse, but it's a whole lot of white people.The reason is because a lot of black folks, brown folks, vulnerable folks, we're not going to put ourselves in a position where we can have an encounter with law enforcement. So one of the things I have to say, talking about church, one of the things our pastor said the Sunday before, not the No Kings, but the immigration protest, it was like maybe a month ago, he said, listen, some of us should not be at that protest because we have a record, because we are prone to be maybe, what is it called? Oh my gosh, we're prone to be singled out by the police. We should not be there. We should pray. We should stay at home. We should host people when they come back and feed them. We should not be there. Others of us, we should be there. And you know who you are.(37:55):And so I think that's part of the discernment, which I think that's literally, it's half the conversations I'm having with people is should my children go to this protest? I fully intended to go to the No Kings protest with my full family, all of us. And I also saw these amazing alternatives like a rally for families and children. And so all these parks all over the city of Chicago, which again, were an amazing city, they had all these alternatives for if your child, someone in your family does not do crowds well, right? You're immunocompromised or you have anxiety, or I thought about, oh, maybe we shouldn't take my son to this protest. Maybe he's going to actually get an anxiety attack. Maybe we should go to this. So we had all those options till the very last minute we're decided to go to Kids Rally, but there were options for us to show up.(38:43):So when you can show up, show up if your neighborhood, there's a ton of activities in, I hope other cities are doing this too, but they're packing these little zines and these little whistles and they're telling people what to do. It's like, okay, now there's this Instagram blast about, oh, the ice is over here, and everyone shows up in their cars and they all honk their horn. You can show up in a neighborhood, honk your horn, you can blow a whistle. And we're fully intending to give away free whistles for every person that buys. The people are not a legal t-shirt for chasing justice. We're like, have a whistle. Get ready. If anything, even if you never blow that whistle, no ice in your town, you're trying to show people that I'm prepared. I'm prepared to raise my voice for you. I'm prepared to show up for you.(39:34):And so it ends up being maybe an artifact or a symbol of our willingness to ally if the time should come. But yeah, some of us, we have more privilege and showing up because I definitely have two lawyers in my speed dial right now because my husband knows that I'm prone to show up in spaces and say things that maybe will get me in trouble. So we had a meeting with a lawyer three weeks ago. He's like, please tell me what to do if my wife gets arrested or if something happens to a neighbor or he's just prepared our community block club emails and texts and signal threads. We have rapid response ready things that are rapid response. So it's like, Hey, where do you see something? I see this is the license plate. Here's a video. I saw just even informing people and praying alongside of one another.(40:29):So we have this group of pastors we gather called Pastors Rabbis and Imams called Faith Over Fear. And so in this group, someone posted like, look at Ice was heavily in our neighborhood. They said arrests that were made or the people that were detained. This is the situation, let people know. So we're just letting people know this is what's happening. Teaching people to use their phones to record everything and anything they can always being ready to show up. So I'm the type of neighbor that would anyway, if I would see law enforcement pulling over a young black or brown man, I would pull the car over and I would get out of my car and I would say, hi, I am Reverend Sandra and I'm here. I live down the street. I'm wondering if everything's okay. Here is everything. And the reason is just to show them that I'm watching. They said, no, everything's fine. I said, okay, I'm just going to sit in my car. Let me know if you need something because I'm letting them know that I'm watching.(41:37):And so I think part of it is the accountability of a community. And I love to see the walking school buses, the ride shares that parents are doing the grocery dropoffs because you can't stand in the food pantry line anymore. The GoFundMe's for particular legal fees, the trying to utilize your networks to find out if you can figure out what district or what holding location you, your loved one would be in offering mental health services. Like, Hey, here are the three organizations that do group therapy or circles or there's going to be a meditation and yoga thing offered at this center. A lot of them have a lot of embodied practices too. So I think those things are great. But yeah, we still have to, we're still living life. We're still submitting book reports for school, we're still having birthday parties and christenings, we're we still black and brown communities have been living through trauma for so long, they can't stop living.(42:53):So the question is how do we invite one another to more wholeness in our living, within our own communities, and then how do we help one another? This is affecting everybody. It's affecting not only Latino communities and not only Asian immigrant communities, but it's also affecting black communities because there's more enforcement and they're not more law enforcement and they're not necessarily targeting black communities, but where there are brown communities, sometimes there are black folks also. And so it's impacting them in just the militarization of our city. I mean, everywhere you go, there's just people marching with weapons and it could be Michigan Avenue in the shopping area downtown near the Bean, or it could be in our communities. And so I think how people are trying to, I think a city like Chicago, because it's got such a rich tradition of community organizing and community development and advocacy, I think it's very set up for what can I do in my world for my neighbors?(44:08):And then for those of you that aren't in Chicago, I think knowing which organizations are doing fantastic things, I think that's really helpful. Within the faith and justice space, I think organizations like New Life Centers that are kind of spearheading some of the new neighbors initiatives already, but they're doing this whole care system for, they're already new neighbors from Venezuela, Ecuador, and Central America who are now more vulnerable. And so they have systems in place for that. There are organizations live free Illinois who are doing more of the advocacy, raising awareness stuff. I can give you a couple, I can put in the show notes, but I think there's organizations that are doing fantastic work. Some people are just, I have a friend who's in Houston who's just like, there's a refugee family who's vulnerable right now and I need to take them groceries. Who wants to give Venmo?(45:06):Me? I think you have to trust your friends aren't going to go out for a nice rooftop beverage and 300, $400 later. Then there's groceries for this. So it's like you may not know anyone, but you may know someone who knows someone who's vulnerable. And so maybe you just are giving money to, or maybe you, I've had people send me money and be like, Hey, maybe someone who needs something. And I'm like, great. And we little, we put it cash and we put it in our car and when we need it, we help a neighbor who's in need. I think I'm calling our friends to, another one I thought of was calling our friend, inviting our friends to action. So sometimes I don't think it's that we don't want to do anything or that we're unwilling to do something. It's that we just feel so stunned. So that news that came out this week in Houston about the 15-year-old autistic boy who was taken by ICE and who has the capacity of a 4-year-old, and I was thinking about him all day long. So I just started pinging all of my friends in Houston and Austin and Dallas. I was like, anybody in Texas? I have a lot of friends in Texas. I'm like, not just, Hey Texas, do something directly. Sending it to them and saying, what have you done?(46:28):Is there a number you can call? Can you gather your small group? They're always asking, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to, I'm like, so I was like, I have something for you to do, and it's in Texas. I'm like, do you know what's happened to this kid? Is he back at home? Can you do something? Is there a GoFundMe for the parents? So I think when we're activated in small things, we develop the discipline of just being activated in general. So it's like if there's a thing that somebody invites you to give to and you give to it, then you get into the practice of giving.(47:06):If you don't start well, then where is it going to happen? So we're thinking right now, I dunno about you guys, but there's nothing in me that wants to do anything fancy right now. I rest for sure. We went to Michigan, we walked around, we took hikes. It was great. It was super free because we stayed with a friend. But there's nothing in me that's like, let me just plan a fancy vacation right now. It's not in me. And I think part of it is, it's almost like a detoxing from an American consumeristic way of seeing celebration and rests. I don't need fancy things to have rest. I don't need, doesn't have to be expensive. I don't know who came up with this. And I think it's a sensibility in us right now, and I've talked to a couple of friends about it, but it's like it's a sensibility in us that feels like it's really tone deaf to start spending a whole lot of money right now when there are so many needs in the world. And no, we can't give away our whole salaries, but we might be able to give more. For example, I don't think our friend should be saying, Hey, my son can't go to college this year. He needs $6,000. I think somebody in our friend groups could be like, actually, I am getting a bonus of $12,000. I'm going to give you three. We should be able to do that for those of us that have access.(48:27):And there are many people who have access, many other people who think they don't have money, but they do. And I think if we invite each other to say, Hey, I want to give to this person's legal fees, or I want to give to this person's college fund, or I want to give to will you give with me? And we are practicing then the kind of mutual aid that's collective that I know our grandparents did for the Latino culture, it's like the RIA system where y'all put the money in every month and every Monday the month. So it's like Koreans do it too. It's like everybody gives a hundred dollars a month and all goes into this pile and every month that pile of money moves around. So it's like our way of providing, I think there's a lot more we could be doing with our money that would give integrity to our voice. And I see a lot of talking and not a lot of sharing.Danielle (49:34):It's so true. It's a lot of talking and it's like, I think we have to get over that old white supremacy norm. If you see somebody on the street, you got to buy them food. You can't ever give them cash. That story rings through my mind as a child and just sometimes you just got to load up the cash, send someone cash for dinner and send someone cash for, I don't know, whatever they need, a bus fare or an airplane ticket or find the miles in your community if someone needs to fly somewhere. Just all these things you're talking about, we kind of have to just get over the hump and just say, Hey, people need help. Let's just go help.Sandra (50:12):And for some of us, I think it's particularly of those of us within our community that are no longer congregating at a local church. I don't know. Did you think the tithe justI think the call to generosity is still there. Whether you want to call your church a local formal traditional church or not, I would hate, I would've hated in our season that we were churchless to have stopped giving out would've been a significant amount of money that would've stopped going out. We still got salaries that year. Well, at least Carl did. Carl got a salary. So I'm like that invitation to generosity, at least at the bare minimum, at the bare minimum, 10% at the bare minimum that should be going out. And so the question is, what did all of us that left churches do with our 10% not to be legalistic because really we should be giving more. The question is, what am I allowed to keep? And for people making six figures, you need to be asking yourselves, why do you need six figures if you don't? Because most of the people, even in places like Seattle and Chicago, are living off of $50,000 a year. So I think as much as we need to ask our government to do well and be integrous in their budget, I think we need to think about that as a place of, and I say that not because I think it's going to solve the problems in Chicago, but I think that money does actually sharing does actually help some people. They haven't eaten.(52:06):They just haven't eaten. We know families whose kids don't eat.Jenny (52:19):Just thank you. It's been really important and meaningful to have your voice and your call to action and to community. I don't take lightly sharing your story and how it's specifically showing up in your community and in your own body and in your own mothering. So thank you for speaking to how you are practicing resilience and how we can think more about how to practice that collectively. It's been really, really good to be here. I am sorry I have to jump off, but thank you Danielle. I'll see you all soon.Sandra (53:23):Yeah, I mean even if you were to think about, you may not be able to provide for anyone, but is there someone in your ecosystem, in your friend group that could really use four sessions of therapy that doesn't have the finances to do so? Or that could really use sessions of acupuncture or massage therapy that doesn't have the money for it, it doesn't have insurance, and of someone who's willing to work with you on that as far as providing that for them. So I think even at that level, it's like if we had to put ourselves in someone else's shoes and say, well, what I want for someone, how would I want for someone to help me without me asking them? I think that is the biggest thing is we cannot, I don't believe we can rely on a person's ability to say what they need.(54:27):I mean, you've had stuff happen in your life. I've had health issues in my own family and problems with my family, and when people are like, oh, how can I help? I'm like, I can't think about that right now. But if a plant shows up at my house that is bringing me joy. Someone just sent me a prayer plant the other day. It's literally called a red prayer plant or something. I was like, yes, I love this. Or if someone buys dinner for my family so I don't have to cook for them, I can't stand up right now. Or if someone said, looks in on me and says, Hey, I know you guys can't be out and about much, so I just wanted to give you some funding for a streaming service. Here you go. Whatever they use it for, that's up to them. But I think to let someone know that you're thinking about them, I think is easy to do with baking something for them, sharing something with them, taking their kids for a few hours.(55:31):Because what if they just need a break from their children and maybe you could just watch their kids for a little bit, pick them up, take them to your house, watch them for a little bit. So I think there are ways that we can practically help each other that again, will make a world of difference to the person that's there next to you. And as always, calling your senators, writing letters, joining in on different campaigns that organizations are doing for around advocacy, checking in with your local city officials and your parent teacher and your schools, and figuring out what are we doing for the kids in our school even to be informed as a neighbor, what is it that our school's doing to protect our families and children? I think those are all good questions that we should always be doing and praying for people and praying specifically. We do that as a family. I think sometimes I don't know what else to do, but to say God to help.Danielle (56:35):Yeah, I mean, I have to go now, but I do think that's kind of key is not that God isn't going to intervene at some point practically, I think we are that active prayer answer for other people we're that answer. I'm not saying we're God, but we're the right. Yeah. Yeah. And just to step into that, be that answer, step into loving when it says, love your neighbor actually doing it and actually showing up and maybe loving your neighbor isn't bringing them dinner. Maybe it's just sitting down and listening to how their day went. Maybe you're not a therapist, maybe you're just a friend. Maybe you're just a community member, but you can sit in and you can hear how rough it was for that day and not take up your own space emotionally, but just be there to listen and then give them a hug and hang or leave. There's a lot of ways to show up and yeah, I'm challenged and want to do this more, so thank you. You'reSandra (57:36):Welcome. Thanks for having me.  Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias' and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me…     Danielle (00:17):Welcome to the Arise podcast, and as you know, we're continuing on the intersection of where our reality meets and today it's where our reality meets our resilience. And how do we define that? A lovely conversation. It's actually just part one. I'm thinking it's going to be multiple conversations. Jenny McGrath, LMHC, and Rebecca Wheeler, Walston. Join me again, look for their bios in the notes and tag along with us. I thought we could start by talking about what do we see as resilience in this moment and what do we see, maybe like I'm saying a lot now, what do we see as the ideal of that resilience and what is actually accessible to us? Because I think there's these great quotes from philosophers and our ancestors, but we don't know all their day-to-day life. What did it look like day to day? So I'm wondering, just kind of posing that for you all, what do you think about resilience? How does it intersect with this moment and how do we kind of ground ourselves in reality?Rebecca (01:33):Rebecca? Coffee helps. Coffee definitely helps. It does. I have coffee here.(01:42):Me too. I would probably try to start with something of a working definition of the word. One of the things that I think makes this moment difficult in terms of a sense of what's real and what's not is the way that our vocabulary is being co-opted or redefined without our permission. And things are being defined in ways that are not accurate or not grounded in reality. And I think that that's part of what feels disorienting in this moment. So I would love for us to just start with a definition of the word, and I'm guessing the three of us will have different versions of that.(02:25):So if I had to start, I would say that I used to think about resilience as sort of springing back to a starting point. You started in this place and then something knocked you off of where you started. And resilience is about making it back to the place that you were before you got knocked off of your path. And my definition of that word has shifted in recent years to a sense of resilience that is more about having come through some difficulty. I don't actually bounce back to where I started. I actually adopt a new normal new starting place that has integrated the lessons learned or the strengths or the skills developed for having gone through the process of facing something difficult.Jenny, I love that. I feel like it reminds me of a conversation you and I had many moons ago, Rebecca, around what is flourishing and kind of these maybe idealistic ideas around something that isn't actually rooted in reality. And I love that that definition of resistance feels so committed to being in reality. And I am not going to erase everything I went through to try to get back to something, but I'm actually going to, my word is compost or use what I've gone through to bring me to where I am. Now, this will not surprise either of you. I think when I think of resilience, I think somatically and how we talk about a nervous system or a body and what allows resilience. And so one of the ways that that is talked about is through heart rate variability and our ability for our heart to speed up and slow down is one of the defining factors of our body's ability to stay resilient.(04:42):Can I come to a state of rest and I think about how rest is a privilege that not all bodies have. And so when I think about resilience in that way, it makes me think about how do I actually zoom out of resilience being about an individual body and how do we form kind of more of a collective sense of resilience where we are coworking to create a world where all bodies get to return to that level of safety and rest and comfort and aren't having to stay in a mode of vigilance. And so I see resilience almost as one of the directions that I'm wanting to move and not a place that we're at yet collectively. Collectively meaning whoJenny (05:41):I say collectively, I'm hoping for a world that does not exist yet where it gets to be all bodies, human and non-human, and the ways in which we allow ecosystems to rest, we allow a night sky to rest. We allow ourselves to become more in rhythm with the activation and deactivation that I think nature teaches us of more summer and winter and day and night and these rhythms that I think we're meant to flow in. But in a productive capitalistic society where lights are never turned off and energy is only ever thought about and how do we produce more or different energy, I'm like, how do we just stop producing energy and just take a nap? I'm really inspired by the nat ministry of just like rest actually is a really important part of resistance. And so I have these lofty ideals of what collective means while being aware that we are coming to that collective from very different places in our unresolved historical relational field that we're in.I would say there's a lot I'd love about that, all of that. And I, dear use of the word lofty, I feel that word in this moment that causes me to consider the things that feel like they're out of reach. I think the one thing that I would probably add to what you said is I think you used the phrase like returning to a state of rest when you were talking about heart rate and body. And if we're talking about an individual ability to catch my breath and slow it down, I can track with you through the returning to something. But when we go from that individual to this collective space where I live in the hyphenated existence of the African American story, I don't have the sense of returning to something because African hyphen American people were born as a people group out of this horrific traumatic space called the transatlantic slave trade.(08:15):And so I don't know that our bodies have ever known a sense of rest on us soil. And I don't know that I would feel that that sense of rest on the continent either having been there several times, that sense of something happened in the transition from Africa to America, that I lost my africanness in such a way that doesn't feel like a place of rest. And sometimes we talk about it in terms of for certain people groups, land is connected to that sense of rest for Native Americans, for indigenous people, for certain Latin cultures. But for the African American person, there's not a connection to land. There's only maybe a connection to the water of the transatlantic slave trade. And then water is never at rest. It's always moving, right? So I stay with you and then I lose you and then I come back to you.Danielle (09:25):That feels like a normal part of healing. I stay with you, I lose you and then I come back to you. I think resilience for me has meant living in this family with my partner who's a first generation immigrant and then having kids and having to remind myself that my kids were raised by both of us with two wildly different perspectives even though we share culture. And so there's things that are taught, there's things that are learned that are very different lessons that I cannot be surprised about what might be a form of resilience for my child and what might be a struggle where there isn't groundwork there.(10:22):I remember when Luis came to the United States, his parents said to him, we'll see you in a couple weeks. And I used to think my young self, I was like, what does that mean? They don't think we're going to stay married or whatever. But his dad also told him, be careful up there, be careful. And if Luis were here to tell this story, he said it many times. He's like, I didn't come to the United States because I thought it was the best thing that could happen to me. I came to marry you, I came to be with you, but I didn't come here because it was the best thing to happen to me. When his family came up for the wedding, they were very explicit. We didn't come here, we're not in awe. They wanted to make sure people knew we're okay. And I know there's wildly different experiences on the spectrum of this, but I think about that a lot. And so resilience has looked really different for us.(11:23):I think it is forming that bond with people that came here because they needed work or a different kind of setting or change to people that are already here. And I think as you witness our culture now, handle what's happening with kidnappings, what's happening with moms, what's happening with people on the street, snatching people off the street. You see that in the last election there was a wide range of voters on our side on the Latinx Latina side, and there was a spectrum of thoughts on what would actually help our community. But now you're seeing that quickly contract and basically like, oh shit, that wasn't helpful. So I think my challenge to myself has been how do I stay? Part of resilience for me is how do I stay in contact with people that I love that don't share in the same view as humanity as me? And I think that's an exercise that our people have done for a long time.Rebecca (12:38):Say that last sentence one more time, Danielle.Danielle (12:42):Just like, how do I stay in contact with people that I love that don't share my view of humanity, that don't share the valuation of humanity? How do I stay in contact with them because I actually see them as human too. And I think that's been a part of our resiliency over many years in Latin America just due to constant interference from European governmental powers.Rebecca (13:16):That partly why I think I asked you to repeat that last sentence is because I think I disconnected for a minute and I want to be mindful of disconnecting over a sentence that is about staying connected to people who don't value the same things that I value or don't value or see humanity in the way that I see in humanity. And I'm super aware, part of the conversation that's happening in the black community in this moment, particularly with black women, is the idea that we're not going to step to the forefront in this one. We are culturally, collectively, consciously making a decision to check out. And so if you see any of this on social media, there's a sense of like we're standing around learning line dances from Beyonce about boots on the ground instead of actively engaging in this moment. And so I have some ambivalence about whether or not does that count as resilience, right?(14:28):And is it resilient in a way that's actually kind to us as a people? And I'm not sure if I have an answer to that yet. In my mind the jury is still out, right? There are things about black women stepping to the side that make me really nervous because that's not who we are. It's not historically who we have been. And I am concerned that what we're doing is cutting off parts of ourself. And at the same time, I can tell you that I have not watched a news program. I have not watched a single news recording of anything since November 2nd, 2024.Danielle (15:13):I can just feel the tension of all of our different viewpoints, not that we're in conflict with one another, but we're not exactly on the same page either. And not that we're not on the same team, but I can feel that pull. Anybody else feel that?Rebecca (15:35):Does it feel like, I would agree we're not on the same page and in some ways I don't expect that we would be because we're so different. But does that pull feel like an invitation to clash or does it feel like it is actually okay to not necessarily be on the same page?Danielle (16:06):Well, I think it feels both things. I think I feel okay with it because I know you all and I'm trying to practice that. And I also think I feel annoyed that we can't all be on the same page some sense of annoyance. But I don't know if that annoyance is from you all. I feel the annoyance. It feels like noise from the outside to me a bit. It is not you or Jenny, it's just a general annoyance with how hard this shit is.Rebecca (16:45):And I definitely feel like one of the things I think that happens around supremacy and whiteness on us soil is the larger narrative that we have to be at odds with one another that there isn't a capacity or a way that would allow us to differentiate and not villainize or demonize the person that you are or the community that you are differentiated from. And I think we haven't always had the space collectively to think about what does it mean to walk alongside, what does it mean to lock arms? What does it mean to pull resources even with someone that we're on the same team, but maybe not at the same vantage point.Jenny (17:47):I have two thoughts. Three, I guess I'm aware even my continual work around internalized white saviorism, that part of my ambivalence is like where do you each need me? Are we aligning with people or are we saying f you to people? And I can feel that within me and it takes so much work to come back to, I might actually have a third way that's different than both of you, and that gets to be okay too. But I'm aware that there is that tendency to step into over alignment out of this savior movement and mentality. So just wanted to name that that is there.(18:41):And as you were sharing Rebecca, the word that came to mind for me was orthodoxy. And I don't often think of white supremacy without thinking of Christian supremacy because they've been so interlocked for so long. And the idea that there are many faith traditions including the Jewish tradition that has a mid rash. And it's like we actually come to scripture and we argue about it because we have different viewpoints and that's beautiful and lovely because the word of God is living in all of us. And when orthodoxy came around, it's like, no, we have to be in 100% agreement of these theologies or these doctrines and that's what it means to be Christian. And then eventually I think that's what it means to be a white Christian. So yeah, I think for folks like myself who were immersed in that world growing up, it feels existentially terrifying because it's like if I don't align with the orthodoxy of whiteness or Christianity or capitalism, it viscerally feels like I am risking eternity in hell. And so I better just play it safe and agree with whatever my pastor tells me or whatever the next white Republican male tells me. And so I feel that the weight of what this mindset of orthodoxy has done,Rebecca (20:21):I'm like, I got to take a breath on that one because I got a lot of stuff going on internally. And I think, so my faith tradition has these sort of two parallels. There's this space that I grew up in was rooted in the black church experience and then also in college that introduction into that white evangelical parachurch space where all of that orthodoxy was very, very loud and a version of Christianity that was there is but one way to do all of these things and that one way looks like this. And if you're doing anything other than that, there's something wrong with what you're doing. And so for me, there are parts of me that can walk with you right through that orthodoxy door. And there's also this part of me where the black church experience was actually birthed in opposition to that orthodoxy, that same orthodoxy that said I was three fifths of a person, that same orthodoxy that said that my conversion to Christianity on earth did not change my status as an enslaved person.(21:39):And so I have this other faith tradition that is built around the notion that that orthodoxy is actually a perversion of authentic Christian expression. And so I have both of those things in my body right now going, and so that's just my reaction I think to what you said. I feel both of those things and there are times when I will say to my husband, Ooh, my evangelical illness is showing because I can feel it, like want to push back on this flexibility and this oxygen that is in the room through the black church experience that says I get to come as I am with no apology and no explanation, and Jesus will meet me wherever that is end of conversation, end debate.Danielle (22:46):I don't know. I had a lot of thoughts. They're all kind of mumbled together. I think we have a lot of privilege to have a conversation like this because when you leave a space like this that's curated with people, you've had relationships over a long time maybe had disagreements with or rubbed scratchy edges with. When you get out into the world, you encounter a lot of big feelings that are unprocessed and they don't have words and they have a lot of room for interpretation. So you're just getting hit, hit, hit, hit and the choices to engage, how do you honor that person and engage? You don't want to name their feelings, you don't want to take over interpreting them, but it feels in this moment that we're being invited to interpret one another's feelings a lot. But here we're putting language to that. I mean Jenny and I talked about it recently, but it turns into a lot of relational cutoffs.(23:55):I can't talk to you because X, I can't talk to you because X, I don't want to read your news article. And a lot of times they're like, Danielle, why did you read Charlie Kirk? And I was like, because I have family that was interested in it. I've been watching his videos for years because I wanted to understand what are they hearing, what's going on. Yeah, did it make me mad sometimes? Absolutely. Did I turn it off? Yeah, I still engage and then I swing and listen to the Midas touch or whatever just like these opposite ends and it gives me great joy to listen to something like that. But when we're out and about, if we're saying resiliency comes through connection to our culture and to one another, but then with all the big feelings you can feel just the formidable splits anywhere you go, the danger of speaking of what's unspeakable and you get in a room with people you agree with and then suddenly you can talk. And I don't know how many of us are in rooms where resilience is actually even required in a conversation.Rebecca (25:15):It makes me think about the idea that we don't have good sort of rules of engagement around how to engage someone that thinks differently than we do and we have to kind of create them on the fly. When you were talking Danielle about the things you choosing to read Charlie Kirk, or not choosing to listen to something that reflects your values or not, and the invitation in this moment or the demand that if someone thinks differently than me, it is just a straight cutoff. I'm not even willing to consider that there's any kind of veracity in your viewpoint whatsoever. And I think we don't have good theology, we don't have good vocabulary, we don't have good rules of engagement about when is it okay to say, actually, I'm going to choose not to engage you. And what are the reasons why we would do that that are good reasons, that are wise reasons that are kind reasons? And I think the country is in a debate about that and we don't always get the answer to those questions and because we don't get it right then there's just relational debris all over the floor.Jenny (26:47):I'm just thinking about, I am far from skilled or perfect at this by any means, but I feel like these last couple years I live in a van and one of the reasons that we decided to do that was that we would say, I think I know two things about every state, and they're probably both wrong. And I think for our own reasons, my husband and I don't like other people telling us what is true. We like to learn and discover and feel it in our own bodies. And so it's been really important for us to literally physically go to places and talk to people. And I think it has been a giant lesson for me on nuance and that nobody is all one thing. And often there's people that are on the completely opposite side of the aisle, but we actually look at the same issues and we have a problem with the issues. We just have heard very, very different ways of fixing or tending to those issues. And so I think often if we can come down to what are we fearing, what is happening, what is going on, we can kind of wrestle there a little bit more than jumping to, so what's the solution? And staying more in that dirt level.(28:22):And not always perfectly of course, but I think that's been one of the things in an age of the algorithm and social media, it is easy for me to have very broad views of what certain states or certain people groups or certain voting demographics are like. And then when you are face to face, you have to wrestle. And I love that when you said, Daniel, I see them as human. And it's like, oh yeah, it's so much easier to see someone as not human when I'm learning about them from a TikTok reel or from a news segment than when I'm sharing a meal with them and hearing about their story and how they've come to believe the things they've believed or wrestle with the things they're wrestling with.Rebecca (29:14):Two things. One, I think what you're talking about Jenny, is the value of proximity. The idea that I've stepped close to someone into their space, into their world with a posture of I'm going to just listen. I'm going to learn, I'm going to be curious. And in that curiosity, open handed and open-minded about all kinds of assumptions and presuppositions. And you're right, we don't do that a lot. The second thing that I was thinking when you mentioned getting into the dirt, I think you used the phrase like staying in the darker sort of edges of some of those hard conversations. That feels like a choice towards resiliency. To me, the idea that I will choose of my will to stay in the room, in the relationship, in the conversation long enough to wrestle long enough to learn something long enough to have my perspective challenged in a real way that makes me rethink the way I see something or the lens that I have on that particular subject.(30:33):And I don't think we could use more of that in this moment. I think probably our friendship, what started as a professional connection that has over the years developed into this friendship is about the choice to stay connected and the choice to stay in the conversation. I know when I first met you, we were going to do a seminar together and someone said, oh yeah, Jenny's getting ready to talk on something about white people. And I had 8,000 assumptions about what you were going to say and all kinds of opinions about my assumptions about what you're going to say. And I was like, well, I want to talk to her. I want to know what is she going to say? And really it was because if she says anything crazy, we right, we all have problems, me and you, right? And the graciousness with which you actually entered that conversation to go like, okay, I'm listening. What is it that you want to ask me? I think as part of why we're still friends, why we're still colleagues, why we still work together, is that invitation from you, that acceptance of that invitation from me. Can we wrestle? Can we box over this and come out the other side having learned something about ourselves and each other?Jenny (32:10):And I think part of that for me, what I have to do is reach for my lineage pre whiteness. And I have this podcast series that I love called Search for the Slavic Soul that has made me make more sense to myself. And there's this entire episode on why do Slavic people love to argue? And I'm like, oh, yes. And I think part of that has been me working out that place of white woman fragility that says, if someone questions my ideas or my values or my views, I need to disintegrate and I need to crumple. And so I'm actually so grateful for that time and for how we've continued to be able to say, I don't agree with that, and we can still be okay and we can still kind of navigate because of course we're probably going to see things differently based on our experiences.Danielle (33:16):That is exactly the problem though is because there's a lot of, not everybody, but there's a lot of folks that don't really have a sense of self or have a sense of their own body. So there's so much enmeshment with whoever they're with. So when then confronted and mesh, I mean merging, we're the same self. It adds protection. Think about it. We all do it. Sometimes I need to be people just like me. It's not bad. But if that sense of merging will cost you the ability to connect to someone different than you or that sees very different than you, and when they confront that, if they're quote alone physically or alone emotionally in that moment, they'll disappear or they'll cut you off or they'll go away or it comes out as violence. I believe it comes out as shootings as we could go on with the list of violent outcomes that kind of cut, that kind of separation happens. So I mean, I'm not like Jenny, that's awesome. And it doesn't feel that typical to me.Rebecca (34:36):What you just described to me, Daniel, I have been going like, isn't that whiteness though, the whole point, and I'm talking about whiteness, not the people who believe themselves to be white, to quote taishi quotes. The whole point of whiteness is this enmeshment of all these individual European countries and cultures and people into this one big blob that has no real face on it. And maybe that's where the fragility comes from. So I love when Jenny said, it makes me reach back into my ancestry pre whiteness, and I'm going, that needs to be on a t-shirt. Please put it on a t-shirt, a coffee mug, a hat, something. And so that's sort of Taishi Coates concept of the people who believe themselves to be white is a way to put into words this idea that that's not actually your story. It's not actually your ancestry.(35:43):It's not actually your lineage. It's the disruption and the eraser and the stealing of your lineage in exchange for access to power and privilege. And I do think it is this enmeshment, this collective enmeshment of an entire European continent. And perhaps you're right that that's where the fragility comes from. So when you try to extract a person or a people group out of that, I don't know who I am, if absent this label of whiteness, I don't know what that means by who I am now I'm talking like I know what I'm talking about. I'm not white, so let me shut up. Maybe that means Jenny, you could say if I misunderstood you misquoted, you misrepresented allJenny (36:31):The No, no, I think yeah, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. And it also makes me go back to what you said about proximity. And I think that that is part of the design of whiteness, and even what you were saying about faith, and you can correct me, but my understanding is that those who could vote and those who could own property were Christian. And then when enslaved black people started converting to Christianity and saying, I can actually take pieces of this and I can own this and I can have this white enslavers had a conundrum because then they couldn't use the word Christian in the way that they used to justify chattel slavery and wealth disparity. So they created the word white, and so then it was then white people that could own property and could vote. And so what that did was also disable a class solidarity between lower socioeconomic white bodies and newly emancipated black bodies to say, no, we're not in this together struggling against those that own the highest wealth. I have this pseudo connection with bodies that hold wealth because of the color of my skin. And so then it removes both my proximity to my own body and my proximity to bodies that are probably in a similar struggle, very disproportionate and different than my own because I have white privilege. But it also then makes white bodies align with the system instead of co-conspirator with bodies working towards liberation.Rebecca (38:32):I do think that that's true. I think there's a lot of data historically about the intentional division that was driven between poor people in the colonies and wealthy people in the colonies. And I say people because I think the class stratification included enslaved Africans, free Africans, poor whites, native American people that were there as well. And so I think that there was a kind of diversity there in terms of race and ethnicity and nationality that was intentionally split and then reorganize along racial lines. The only thing that I would add on the Christian or the faith spectrum is that there's a book by Jamar TBE called The Color of Compromise. And one of the things that he talks about in that book is the religious debate that was happening when the colonies were being organized around if you proselytize your slave and they convert, then do you have to emancipate them?(39:43):Because in England, the religious law was that you could not enslave or in put a believer into servitude in any form, whether that's indentured servitude or slavery. Well, I got a problem with the premise, the idea that if you were not a Christian in medieval England, I could do whatever I wanted to. The premise is wrong in the first place. The thought that you could own or indenture a human to another human is problematic on its face. So I just want to name that the theological frame that they brought from England was already jacked, and then they superimposed it in the colonies and made a conscious decision at the House of Burgess, which is about a mile from where I'm sitting, made a conscious decision to decide that your conversion to Christianity does not impact any part of your life on earth. It only impacts your eternity. So all you did was by fire insurance, meaning that your eternity is now in heaven and not in hell, but on earth I can do whatever I want. And that split that perversion of the gospel at that moment to decide that the kingdom of God has nothing to do with what is happening on earth is something we're still living with today. Right? It's the reason why you have 90 some odd percent of evangelicals voting for all kinds of policies that absolutely violate every tenant of scripture in the Bible and probably every other holy book on the planet, and then still standing in their pulpit on Sunday morning and preaching that they represent God. It's ridiculous. It's offensive.Danielle (41:38):I just feel like this is proving my point. So I feel like other people may have said this, but who's kept talking about this exchange for whiteness? Bro, we're in the timeline where Jesus, their Jesus said yes to the devil. He's like, give me the power, give me the money, give me the bread. And if you want to come into their religion, you have to trade in how God actually made you for to say yes to that same temptation for power and money and whatever, and erase your face's. One comment. Second comment is this whole thing about not giving healthcare to poor families.(42:20):I hesitate to say this word, but I'm reminded of the story of the people that first came here from England, and I'm aware that they were starving at one point, and I'm aware that they actually ate off their own people, and that's partly how they survived. And it feels the same way to me, here, give us the power, give us the control, give us the money. And we're like, the fact is, is that cutting off healthcare for millions of Americans doesn't affect immigrants at all. They're not on those plans. It affects most poor whites and they have no problem doing it and then saying, come, give me your bread. Come give me your cheese. Come give me your vote. It's like a self flesh eating virus, and(43:20):I am almost speechless from it. There's this rumor that migrants have all the health insurance, and I know that's not true because Luis legally came here. He had paperwork, he was documented, got his green card, then got his citizenship, and even after citizenship to prove we could get health insurance, when he got off his job, we had to not only submit his passport, but his certificate that was proof of citizenship through the state of Washington, a very liberal state to get him on health insurance. So I know there's not 25 million immigrants in the country falsifying those records. That's just not happening. So I know that that's a lie from personal experience, but I also know that the point is, the point is the lie. The point is to tell you the lie and actually stab the person in the back that you're lying to. That just feels dark to me. I went off, sorry, that's kind of off the subject of resilience.Rebecca (44:36):No, I have two reactions to that. The first one is when we were talking just a few minutes ago about the exchange for power and privilege, it's actually a false invitation to a table that doesn't actually exist. That's what, to me is darkest about it. It's the promise of this carrot that you have no intention of ever delivering. And people have so bought into the lie so completely that it's like you didn't even stop to consider that, let alone the ability to actually see this is not actually an invitation to anything. So that is partly what I think about. And if you read the book, the Sum of Us, it actually talks about Sum, SUM, the sum of us. It actually talks about the cost, the economic cost of racism, and each chapter is about a different industry and how there were racist policies set up in that industry.(45:49):And basically the point the author makes is that at every turn, in order to subjugate and oppress a community of color, white people had to sacrifice something for themselves and oppress themselves and disenfranchise themselves in order to pull it off. And they did it anyway because essentially it is wealthy white, it's affluent white male that ends up with the power and the privilege, and everybody else is subjugated and oppressed. And that's a conversation. I don't understand it. The gaslighting is got to be astronomical and brilliant to convince an entire community of people to vote against themselves. So I'm over there with you on the limb, Danielle,Jenny (47:16):Yeah, I am thinking about Fox News and how most impoverished white communities, that is the only source of information that they have because there isn't proximity and there isn't a lot of other conversations. It is exactly what Tucker Carlson or all of these people are spewing. And I think fear is such a powerful tool, and honestly, I don't see it as that different than early indoctrination around hell and using that to capitulate people into the roles that the church wanted them. And so it's like things might be bad now, but there are going to be so much worse quote because of the racial fear mongering of immigrants, of folks of color, of these people coming to take your jobs that if you can work, people who are already struggling into such a frenzy of fear, I think they're going to do things drastically vote for Trump because they think he's going to save the economy because that's what they're hearing, regardless of if that is even remotely true, and regardless of the fact that most white bodies are more likely to be climate refugees than they are to be billionaire friends withRebecca (48:59):So then what does resilience look like in the face of that kind of fearmongering?Jenny (49:24):This is maybe my nihilistic side. I don't know that things are going to get better before they get far worse. And I think that's where the resilience piece comes in. I was like, how do we hold on to our own humanity? How do we hold onto our communities? How do we hold onto hope in the reality that things will likely get worse and worse and worse before some type of reckoning or shift happens,Rebecca(50:23):Yeah. There's actually, I saw an Instagram post a couple months ago, and I want to say it was Bruce Springsteen and he was just lamenting the erosion of art and culture and music in this moment that there's not art in the Oval Office, that there's not, and just his sense that art and music and those kinds of expressions, actually, I don't think he used the word defiance, but that's the sentiment that I walked away with. That is a way to amplify our humanity in a way that invites proximity to cultures and people that are different than you. This whole argument that we're having right now about whether this election of Bad Bunny makes any sense and the different sort of arguments about what the different sides that people have taken on that, it's hilarious. And then there's something about it that feels very real.Danielle (51:31):Yeah, I had someone told me, I'm not watching it because he's a demonic Marxist. I was like, can you be a Marxist and be in the entertainment industry anyway? Clearly, we're going to have to talk about this again. I wrote an essay for good faith media and I was just, I couldn't wrap it up. And they're like, that's okay. Don't wrap it up. It's not meant to be wrapped up. So maybe that's how our conversation is too. I dunno. Jenny, what are you thinking?Jenny (52:13):I have many thoughts, mostly because I just watched one battle after another last night, and I don't want to give any spoilers away, but I feel like it was a really, it's a very million trigger warnings piece of art that I think encapsulates so much of what we're talking about and sort of this transgenerational story of resilience and what does it mean whether that is my own children or other children in this world to lean into, this probably isn't going to end with me. I'm probably not going to fix this. So how do we continue to maybe push the ball forward in the midst of the struggle for future generations? And I think I'm grateful for this space. I think this is one of the ways that we maybe begin to practice and model what proximity and difference and resilience can look like. And it's probably not always going to be easy or there's going to be struggles that probably come even as we work on engaging this together. And I'm grateful that we get to engage this together.Danielle (53:35):Well, we can always continue our thoughts next week. That's right. Yeah, Rebecca. Okay, I'll be locked in, especially because I said it in the podcast.Rebecca (53:48):I know. I do agree with that. Jenny, I particularly agree having this conversation, the three of us intentionally staying in each other's lives, checking on each other, checking in with each other, all that feels like this sort of defiant intentional resilience, particularly in a moment in history where things that have been our traditional expression of resilience have been cut off like it In recent US history, any major change happened, usually started on the college campus with public protests and public outcry, and those avenues have been cut off. It is no longer safe to speak out on a college campus. People are losing their degrees, they're getting kicked out of colleges, they're getting expelled from colleges for teachers are getting fired for expressing viewpoints that are not in line with the majority culture at this moment. And so those traditional avenues of resilience, I think it was an intentional move to go after those spaces first to shut down what we would normally do to rally collectively to survive a moment. And so I think part of what feels hard in this moment is we're having to reinvent them. And I think it's happening on a micro level because those are the avenues that we've been left with, is this sort of micro way to be resistant and to be resilient.Danielle (55:31):As you can see, we didn't finish our conversation this round, so check out the next episode. After this, we'll be wrapping up this conversation or at least continuing it. And at the end in the notes, their resources, I encourage you to connect with community, have conversations, give someone a hug that you trust and love and care for, and looking forward to having you join us.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Today's episode of Uncommon Sense with Ginny Robinson is a carefully crafted full-on rant about two awful cultural failures, Donald Trump and Taylor Swift. Both, in their own ways, are failing the next generation and pushing the normalization of pedophilia. Trump refuses to release the Epstein list or hold powerful pedophiles accountable. Meanwhile, Taylor Swift flaunts her naked body on her album cover marketed to an audience that includes young girls who are already being tempted by a society pushing them toward OnlyFans. Feminism has clearly failed. We need to bring back the biblical patriarchy, AKA Christianity.At some point, we have to stop asking why is all of this happening and start living biblically individually, in our families, and as a society. For the sake of our own wellbeing and (far more importantly) the protection of our children. If we can't even agree to safeguard their innocence, what are we doing? Why aren't we protecting the children?--https://bakerbookhouse.com/featured/the-brand-sunday

Today on the show, we're answering the question, “Why does the winter feel so long?”  You may know Cubbie Fink as one of the founding members of Foster the People, but he's also an incredible producer and creative force. And joining him is his wife Rebecca St. James—Grammy and Dove Award-winning Christian artist, worship leader, author, and just all-around wonderful human.  I think we're all feeling OVER THE WINTER at this point, so we're going to talk about why it feels so long and how we handle it, AND we get to talk about Cubbie and Rebecca's book about their life and marriage, called Lasting Ever.  If you're following along in your TSF Seasons Guidebook, we're on page 25. And as always, if you still want to get a Guidebook (especially because spring pages are coming soon, we're emailing them out on March 17th!), you can find it at anniefdowns.com/seasons . . . . . Find the show notes here Want to watch this episode on YouTube? Head on over to our YouTube Channel and be sure to like and subscribe!  . . . . . Thank you to our sponsors!  BetterHelp: Visit BetterHelp.com/THATSOUNDSFUN today to get 10% off your first month. Jolie: Head to jolieskinco.com/THATSOUNDSFUN to try it out for yourself with FREE shipping. Ritual: Get 25% off your first month for a limited time at ritual.com/THATSOUNDSFUN.  HiyaHealth: My friends receive 50% off your first order. To claim this deal you must go to hiyahealth.com/THATSOUNDSFUN. WayFair: Head over to Wayfair.com and find something that's just your style today.  . . . . . If you'd like to partner with Annie as a sponsor for the That Sounds Fun podcast, fill out our Advertise With Us form! . . . . . If you enjoyed this episode, you can go back and listen to these: Episode 374: Rebecca St. James + Kingdom Come Episode 372: For King and Country . . . . . Catch our special miniseries over on Annie's miniBFF podcast. It's about Who We Are. Why We Are Here, and Where We Are Going. Be sure to subscribe for the miniBFFs in your life. . . . . . Sign up to receive the AFD Week In Review email and ask questions to future guests! #thatsoundsfunpodcast . . . . . NYTimes bestselling Christian author, speaker, and host of popular Christian podcast, That Sounds Fun Podcast, Annie F. Downs shares with you some of her favorite things: new books, faith conversations, entertainers not to miss, and interviews with friends. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Send us a textGet ready for an inspiring episode of "God-Sized Stories" as I sit down with Grammy Award-winning artist Rebecca St. James and musician/producer Cubbie Fink! In this powerful conversation, Rebecca and Cubbie share their journey of faith, music, and trusting God through life's challenges. From chart-topping success to personal struggles and incredible testimonies, this episode is packed with encouragement and wisdom.

Purity rings, purity vows, purity ceremonies, and dances were popular for a few decades among Christian groups. But, problems developed when the little boys didn't grow up and girls couldn't get married. Immaturity dominated, on-line porn took the boys down; and combining vows of celibacy with a delay of marriage (and a reputation of young marriages) was a killer for evangelicals. Why aren't our young men getting married? Why aren't our girls getting married? The just will live by faith, and they will marry by faith. The breakdown of faith involves the breakdown of family. We give some practical advice for young people on getting married in this short segment. This program includes: 1. The World View in 5 Minutes with Adam McManus (Pastor to Tucker Carlson: We need to repent of our sin, Capitol Bible Reading Marathon begins, Japan, Singapore and America guilty of growing debt the most) 2. Generations with Kevin Swanson

Purity rings, purity vows, purity ceremonies, and dances were popular for a few decades among Christian groups. But, problems developed when the little boys didn't grow up and girls couldn't get married. Immaturity dominated, online porn took the boys down; and combining vows of celibacy with a delay of marriage (and a reputation of young marriages) was a killer for evangelicals. Why aren't our young men getting married? Why aren't our girls getting married? The just will live by faith, and they will marry by faith. The breakdown of faith involves the breakdown of family. We give some practical advice for young people on getting married in this short segment.

Purity rings, purity vows, purity ceremonies, and dances were popular for a few decades among Christian groups. But, problems developed when the little boys didn't grow up and girls couldn't get married. Immaturity dominated, on-line porn took the boys down- and combining vows of celibacy with a delay of marriage -and a reputation of young marriages- was a killer for evangelicals. Why aren't our young men getting married-- Why aren't our girls getting married-- The just will live by faith, and they will marry by faith. The breakdown of faith involves the breakdown of family. We give some practical advice for young people on getting married in this short segment. --This program includes---1. The World View in 5 Minutes with Adam McManus -Pastor to Tucker Carlson- We need to repent of our sin, Capitol Bible Reading Marathon begins, Japan, Singapore and America guilty of growing debt the most---2. Generations with Kevin Swanson

A new MP3 sermon from Generations Radio is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: When The Purity Movement Fails - Celibacy vs. Marriage Speaker: Kevin Swanson Broadcaster: Generations Radio Event: Radio Broadcast Date: 4/23/2024 Length: 33 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Generations Radio is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: When The Purity Movement Fails - Celibacy vs. Marriage Speaker: Kevin Swanson Broadcaster: Generations Radio Event: Radio Broadcast Date: 4/23/2024 Length: 33 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Generations Radio is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: When The Purity Movement Fails - Celibacy vs. Marriage Speaker: Kevin Swanson Broadcaster: Generations Radio Event: Radio Broadcast Date: 4/23/2024 Length: 33 min.

A new MP3 sermon from Generations Radio is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: When The Purity Movement Fails - Celibacy vs. Marriage Speaker: Kevin Swanson Broadcaster: Generations Radio Event: Radio Broadcast Date: 4/23/2024 Length: 33 min.

Season Five is here! Let's talk heart-to-heart! Now is the best time to share with your kids from your heart about love, dating, and marriage. Do you have your philosophies and principles figured out about these topics? I'm here to help! Your philosophy will impact the words you say, the jokes you make, and the guidance you give your kids years before they're even dating, so don't wait to figure it out! Let's talk about it TOGETHER!  Navigating the maze of romantic relationships can often feel like an untamed wilderness for parents, but fear not, we can take this adventure together!Join us, as we continue the journey as intentional parents building strong families TOGETHER!Here's links to earlier episodes about parenting principles regarding dating and marriage (episodes with ** were the ones that we shared clips in this episode):**#125 "Family Bonding Activity & Wisdom-giving about Love, Dating, and the Meaning of Marriage#97 Modesty, Pitfalls from the Purity Movement, and Treasuring Sexuality#96 Val & Abby Share Keys to Waiting with Grace, Part 2#95 Conversation with a Teen about Guarding Your Heart, Part 1**#72 Teach Your Kids the Truth about Love, Dating, and Marriage**#22 Moms Marathon Path, and Are We Going to Teach Our Kids that Sex is Sacred?Support the showVisit Val's website: PracticallySpeakingMOM.comJoin Val's Facebook Group Intentional Mom, Strong FamilyFollow Val on Instagram and her Facebook Public Page Practically Speaking MOM To give a set amount each month click here. A few dollars a month would help so much!Here's some other ways to give:Cash App: $valPSMPaypal: val@PracticallySpeakingMOM.comDonate with a credit card HEREAll donations will be used for the ministry. Gifts are not tax deductible. THANK YOU for partnering in this ministry to strengthen families and encourage intentional moms."May the Words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, oh Lord, my Roc...

Sexuality has become SUPER MESSY, especially when we consider the damage that the "Purity Movement" has done over the past 30 years. Join Shannon & Rev. Dr. Angie McCarty as they discuss forgiving those that led us down this “purity culture” path.

Sexuality has become SUPER MESSY, especially when we consider the damage that the "Purity Movement" has done over the past 30 years. Join Shannon & Rev. Dr. Angie McCarty as they discuss “Embodiment Theology” and the impact of seeing Jesus as not just fully GOD but also fully HUMAN (sexuality and all)!

Sexuality has become SUPER MESSY, especially when we consider the damage that the "Purity Movement" has done over the past 30 years.  Join Shannon & Rev. Dr. Angie McCarty as they discuss Angie's doctoral research, her 5 key findings in her research, and her vision for a "NEW Sexual Ethic" that is encouraging to those both inside and outside of church walls.

I sit down with public historian Emma Cieslik (she/her) to hear all about her Queer and Catholic Oral History Project, supported by the Pacific School of Religion. For Emma, the word catholic is truly "universal" — she's interviewed Roman Catholics and folk Catholics, ex-Catholics and "it's complicated" Catholics, queer religious and lay folk. In documenting these diverse perspectives, Emma is preserving the beautiful breadth of queer Catholic stories and gifts so that no one can claim they don't exist. ⁠Click here to view the project's webpage⁠. For links to other articles and projects Emma mentions in her interview, as well as for resources on current events in Palestine, visit the episode transcript. Find Emma on Twitter or Instagram @eocieslik. Reach out to her at eocieslik@gmail.com or queerandcatholicoralhistory@gmail.com. ___ Talking Points: (0:00) Opening remarks (2:27) Emma's background: Raised Catholic with Purity Movement influence; museum studies focused on accessibility and storytelling (7:44) The draw to oral history — prioritizes telling marginalized people's stories in their own words (11:04) Support from Bernard Schlager and the Pacific School of Religion; interviewing ex Catholics, a seminarian and a trans priest, members of various ethnic Catholic churches… (27:22) Outreach Conference panel: highlighting the unique experiences of queer Catholic women (29:30) More on emphasizing the many ways one can be Catholic; Catholic influences in mainstream culture (35:15) Appropriation vs. appreciation vs. reclaiming Catholic imagery & traditions (42:52) Queer Catholics drawn to Santa Muerte — knowing what it's like to live with death (51:25) Wrapping up __ This show's theme song is "Aetherium" by Leah Horn. Find more episodes & resources at blessedarethebinarybreakers.com.

Sexuality has become SUPER MESSY, especially when we consider the damage that the "Purity Movement" has done over the past 30 years and the ongoing struggle to define "Biblical Marriage." Join Shannon & Dr. Rev. Angie McCarty as they discuss Angie's doctoral research and her vision for a "NEW Sexual Ethic" that is encouraging to those both inside and outside of church walls.

Sexuality has become SUPER MESSY, especially when we consider the damage that the "Purity Movement" has done over the past 30 years and the ongoing struggle to define "Biblical Marriage." Join Shannon & Rev. Dr. Angie McCarty as they discuss Angie's doctoral research and her vision for a "NEW Sexual Ethic" that is encouraging to those both inside and outside of church walls.

Hello, Neighbor! You're jumping into this conversation that's already underway between the Comedian Next Door (John Branyan) and his good buddy, Juan DeVevo. (It's okay. Just pull up a chair and make yourself comfortable. They'll make room for you.) If you'd like to hear Part 1, go back to last week's episode! Juan often drops by the Comedian's house to chat about the cultural things on his mind. What does it mean to be a good person? What does Christian living look like? (Flip to the book of Philemon for spoilers.) What's wrong with the so-called "Purity Movement"? Guys, these questions come up in just the first 10 minutes... What's Juan thinking today? To contact the Comedian Next Door, email nextdoor@johnbranyan.com . To find out where Juan is touring, visit Castingcrowns.com

Hello, Neighbor! You're jumping into this conversation that's already underway between the Comedian Next Door (John Branyan) and his good buddy, Juan DeVevo. (It's okay. Just pull up a chair and make yourself comfortable. They'll make room for you.) If you'd like to hear Part 1, go back to last week's episode! Juan often drops by the Comedian's house to chat about the cultural things on his mind. What does it mean to be a good person? What does Christian living look like? (Flip to the book of Philemon for spoilers.) What's wrong with the so-called "Purity Movement"? Guys, these questions come up in just the first 10 minutes... What's Juan thinking today? To contact the Comedian Next Door, email nextdoor@johnbranyan.com . To find out where Juan is touring, visit Castingcrowns.com

Hello, Neighbor! You're jumping into this conversation that's already underway between the Comedian Next Door (John Branyan) and his good buddy, Juan DeVevo. (It's okay. Just pull up a chair and make yourself comfortable. They'll make room for you.) If you'd like to hear Part 1, go back to last week's episode! Juan often drops by the Comedian's house to chat about the cultural things on his mind. What does it mean to be a good person? What does Christian living look like? (Flip to the book of Philemon for spoilers.) What's wrong with the so-called "Purity Movement"? Guys, these questions come up in just the first 10 minutes... What's Juan thinking today? To contact the Comedian Next Door, email nextdoor@johnbranyan.com . To find out where Juan is touring, visit Castingcrowns.com

Resources Mentioned in this Episode:  Sitzmann, Traci & Campbell, Elizabeth M. “The Hidden Cost of Prayer: Religiosity and the Gender Wage Gap.” Academy of Management Journal Vol. 64, No. 4, 13 Sep 2021, https://journals.aom.org/doi/abs/10.5465/amj.2019.1254 Pappas, Stephanie. “Why women make way less than men do in more religious places.” LiveScience, 17 Nov 2020, https://www.livescience.com/religious-states-wider-gender-pay-gap.html Payscale. “2022 State of the Gender Pay Gap Report.” https://www.payscale.com/research-and-insights/gender-pay-gap/https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K0T4ca3jvZMtrQvcCJCxHg3jlfQ1L3q-BBTvOehw5No/edit?usp=sharing

Author of Pure, Linda Kay Klein, discusses the Purity Movement: an evangelical movement that shamed a generation of young women-- and how we can all break free.

Author of Pure, Linda Kay Klein, discusses the Purity Movement: an evangelical movement that shamed a generation of young women-- and how we can all break free.

Welcome to Naked With Socks! In this episode Sarah dives into her experience growing up in purity culture & how it has affected her life today as an adult. From Sarah saving her precious flower until marriage & Jenny getting pregnant straight out of high school, their vastly different experiences make for a very informative funny episode. We are as real, raw, & relatable as possible so sharing our background & experiences with ya'll is just the beginning of a long-term beautiful friendship.Links to check out:Go Listen- All EpisodesYouTube Channel- Watch us & SubscribeFollow us on IG @naked_with_socksFlocktail Hour- Cinderella is deadStrawberry Kiwi Margarita That's a whole episode- TAWEFeedback Survey- tell us what you thinkResources from today's episode:Allyssa in the Kitchen @allyssainthekitchenShrink Chicks Podcast- Purity culture dropout with Erica Smith, M.D.Deconstructing Purity Culture @deconstructingpuritycultureSummer Pardi thong trend setter @summer_pardiThe Negative Implications of the Purity Movement on Young Women- read articleThe Relationship between purity culture & rape myth acceptance- read articleThe One Ring Model: Rape Culture Beliefs are Linked to Purity Culture Beliefs

The world is sending SO MANY messages to our hearts.  As adults, we know to filter those messages and to guard our minds, but kids have a harder time doing that.  In episode 155 of the Practically Speaking MOM Podcast, I am introducing a new series - a series in which we will look at many of the world's messages and identify how to talk with our children about them.  Episode 155 is about being an INTERPRETER of the world's messages to our kids about their hearts and bodies and romantic relationships.  The series that I am introducing is three weeks of mother/daughter conversations that begin next week about our TOP THREE BOOKS for teens to guard their hearts.  These are books that I had my daughter read beginning in upper middle school but they are not kids books. They are for teens and young adults to help make decisions about standards regarding treasuring purity, honoring marriage, and so much more.  The three weeks that we talk about these books are very lively discussion. This week is setting the stage for those three weeks.  This week is about being an interpreter for our kids about the messages of the world.Guarding your child's heart and equipping them to do the same is one of the reoccurring themes on the Practically Speaking MOM Podcast. For more on this topic, be sure to take a look at the following episodes.  Just click on the green links below to listen:148 Includes a section on "cautions about depleted hearts"129-132 is a series about Life-giving Words that incorporates training kids about their self-perception & the CIRCLES of INFLUENCE in their lives  129  130 131 (131 is a mother/daughter conversation with my middle school daughter)  132125 Love, Dating, and the Meaning of Marriage 119 Middles & Teens – overcoming negative self-talk97 Modesty, Pitfalls from the Purity Movement, and Treasuring Your Sexuality95-96 A Mother/Daughter Conversation about Guarding Your Heart & Waiting with Grace 95    96

Millions of Christian's feel guilt or shame about premarital sex. But should they? What do the Gospels and the 10 Commandments actually say about premarital sex? This episode is also available on YouTube: https://youtu.be/MYsj67BTnkY References and URLs Terry Gross Fresh Air interview of Linda Kay Klein: Transcript and audio: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/648737143 Linda Kay Klein's book, PURE: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DQV274T “Inside the Purity Movement and Its Effect on Evangelical Women” by Julie Ingersoll University of North Florida http://tiny.cc/Purity1 Charts used from part 1: The benefits of church attendance for women (Harvard study): https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2521827 https://ifstudies.org/blog/religious-service-attendance-marriage-and-health/ The association of religiosity and suicide in queer youth: http://tiny.cc/Queersuicide http://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(18)30050-3/fulltext Falling church attendance – Pew research: http://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/ President Carter quote: https://youtu.be/znTO949aPNg?t=155 http://tiny.cc/Carter2015 More than 1 in 2 Americans will get STD in lifetime http://tiny.cc/sti4 HPV and Cancer: “HPV is a group of more than 200 related viruses, some of which are spread through vaginal, anal, or oral sex… https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/infectious-agents/hpv-and-cancer There is a vaccine for many sexually transmitted cancers: www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/infectious-agents/hpv-vaccine-fact-sheet https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/statistics/cases.htm #safesex #purity #premaritalsex #teensex #Christiansex #gaysex Voices: Descript.com #descript

Millions of Christian's feel guilt or shame about premarital sex. But should they? What do the Gospels and the 10 Commandments actually say about premarital sex? This episode is also available on YouTube: https://youtu.be/MYsj67BTnkY References and URLs Terry Gross Fresh Air interview of Linda Kay Klein: Transcript and audio: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/648737143 Linda Kay Klein's book, PURE: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DQV274T “Inside the Purity Movement and Its Effect on Evangelical Women” by Julie Ingersoll University of North Florida http://tiny.cc/Purity1 Charts used from part 1: The benefits of church attendance for women (Harvard study): https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2521827 https://ifstudies.org/blog/religious-service-attendance-marriage-and-health/ The association of religiosity and suicide in queer youth: http://tiny.cc/Queersuicide http://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(18)30050-3/fulltext Falling church attendance – Pew research: http://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/ President Carter quote: https://youtu.be/znTO949aPNg?t=155 http://tiny.cc/Carter2015 More than 1 in 2 Americans will get STD in lifetime http://tiny.cc/sti4 HPV and Cancer: “HPV is a group of more than 200 related viruses, some of which are spread through vaginal, anal, or oral sex… https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/infectious-agents/hpv-and-cancer There is a vaccine for many sexually transmitted cancers: www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/infectious-agents/hpv-vaccine-fact-sheet https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/statistics/cases.htm #safesex #purity #premaritalsex #teensex #Christiansex #gaysex Voices: Descript.com #descript

Feeling DUPED by the "Purity Movement" of the past 30 years? Did you try your best to save sex until marriage and then STRUGGLE in ways you never expected? Shannon interviews Rev. Angie McCarty about her doctoral research project on how we can HEAL those exact hurts! Take Angie's Survey at https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/sexual-ethics

Our kids are constantly bombarded with messages even at a very young age about romance, love, dating, and marriage.  Messages come from music, shows and movies, even video games with their seductive images. Most of these messages do way more harm than good in impacting your child's perception on these issues. Of course, reducing their intake of media goes along way in helping their beliefs about these concepts and parents can also speak a clear and impactful message on these topics with our kids as well.  Podcast episode 125, will be two things:1. A list of questions for you, the parent.  Take some time to figure out what your message is going to be through your years of parenting in this complex issue.  Don't wait to figure out your philosophy, because the messages they are getting are happening even at young ages, so your messages have to start young as well.2. The second part of this episode is a NIGHT OF FUN, BONDING, and WISDOM-GIVING regarding your child's heart, romantic love, dating, and the meaning of marriage.  With Valentine's one week away, this is the perfect opportunity to have a night like this, but you can also use these ideas anytime.CLICK HERE for the  THE BLOG POST THAT GOES WITH THIS EPISODE.  IT HAS ALL THE QUESTIONS & IDEAS Want some more podcast episodes on the topic? Here you go!95. Conversation with a Teen about Guarding Your Heart Part 1 96  The conversation continues. The Keys to Waiting with Grace, Part 2 97 Modesty Pitfalls from the Purity Movement and Treasuring Sexuality, Part 3 

CW (avertissement de contenu) : discussion explicite et graphique sur le sangCette semaine, on vous explique pourquoi la virginité est un construit social; on défonce les conceptions judéo-chrétiennes, l'éducation sexuelle basée sur l'abstinence, le double standard cis-hétéro, le maudit hymen et les tendances axées sur la pureté. On parle des mythes, du vocabulaire à déconstruire, et finalement des conséquences que le concept de la virginité a sur les taux d'ITSS ainsi que la sexualité des filles et des femmes. On s'excuse à l'avance pour l'écho du micro de Val dans cet épisode : il était trop bon et spontané pour qu'on le réenregistre! Références discutées dans cet épisode : CBC Radio-Canada (2016). Pro-abstinence dad explains the purity ball phenomenon.Cinthio, H. (2015) “You go home and tell that to my dad!” Conflicting Claims and Understandings on Hymen and Virginity. Sexuality & Culture, 19, 172–189.Fil Santé Jeunes. (2016) Certificat et test de virginitéInstitut National de Santé Publique du Québec: Étude PIXEL - Thème 1 : les « premières fois » Nelson, M. (2019). URBANUIT: le mythe de la virginité nuit à tout le mondeOtt, M. A., & Santelli, J. S. (2007). Abstinence and abstinence-only education. Current opinion in obstetrics & gynecology, 19(5), 446–452.Paul, A. (2014). The Negative Implications of the Purity Movement on Young Women. The Review: A Journal of Undergraduate Student Research, 15, 9-18. Planned Parenthood: What Is Virginity & The Hymen? | Losing Your Virginity Tel-jeunes. (2021). Premières expériences sexuellesThe Establishment. Why Have We Always Been So Obsessed With Virginity?Thériault, A. (2014). Virginity Is A Social ConstructWikipédia. (2021). Virginité

In S2E4 of the SheRecovery Podcast, you'll hear from Rachel Joy Welcher. In this interview, Rachel discusses the impact purity culture has had on the generation that grew up in it. Many of the messages of purity culture offered promises of a kind of life that real life couldn't keep, nor does the Bible actually offer. If you grew up in purity culture and have found that life doesn't match the narrative, you don't want to miss this candid interview full of truth and redemption.  Rachel is a columnist and editor at Fathom magazine. She is the author of two books of poetry: Blue Tarp and Two Funerals, Then Easter and her most recent book Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality. Her writing has also appeared in Fathom magazine, The Gospel Coalition, Mere Orthodoxy, Relevant, and The Englewood Review of Books. She lives in Glenwood, Iowa, with her husband, Evan. You can learn more about her at RachelJWelcher.com. Resources Referenced: Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian SexualityMaking Chastity Sexy: The Rhetoric of Evangelical Abstinence CampaignsDating Done Right: Pursuing Relationships on PurposeThank you for listening to the SheRecovery Podcast - a resource of SheRecovery.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with those who you think will enjoy it too. And be sure to subscribe to never miss a new episode. Visit SheRecovery.com/podcast to access the listener notes for this episode as well as to access our Patreon page. You can show your support of the SheRecovery Podcast and SheRecovery.com by becoming a patron. Patrons receive exclusive content, recovery tools, and even SheRecovery merch that is not found anywhere else. Thank you for your support and we hope you will join us again next week for a new episode of the SheRecovery Podcast.Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/sherecovery)

You may want to grab your earbuds and listen to this one without the kiddos first. Then determine if you want them to listen afterward as a springboard for discussion, depending on their age. This is episode 97 of the Practically Speaking MOM podcast, the place for intentional moms to build strong families. The topic is Modesty & a reflection on the purity movement. Yeah, we're goin there. Buckle up, you may experience a little turbulence on our journey to intentionality today.Anytime I enter a critically important topic, I always feel like I'm walking into a minefield because there is SO MUCH that is important and I don't want to leave any of it out and all of it feel volatile – partly because in any audience there's a wide variety of people who have been through many different things. On this topic today some of you have been through unimaginable violations of your body others of you have had parents who were dictators and legalistic about the outside of your bodies while neglecting your heart (to be perfectly honest, that was partially me with our older kids). This week we're in the minefield of modesty & the purity movement.  This is an especially precarious minefield because not only is it an important topic but it is a HOT TOPIC.  Hot topics are all the buzz and these days, any topic that is getting prime time attention means that lots of emotions are stirred up."Body shaming/ Body Positive"   'Sex Shaming/Sex Positive" ....These are just a few of the phrases and concepts swirling around society today regarding modesty and sexuality.   In this episode, I hope I motivate you to give time and attention and prayer to your parenting perspective on modesty, the purity movement, and your child's growing view of sexuality.This week's podcast would probably be best for you to listen first by yourself or with your husband because the two of you need to be having plenty of discussion and prayer together on how you are going to handle this issue with your kids – your kids, both boys and girls, and at every age, needs your GUIDANCE on this complex issue. RESROUCES for this episode:Materials for your daughters and few for your sons also... https://mytruegirl.com/Book for you to do with your preteen or teen son - a book for teaching your sons to take responsibility for their thoughts Preparing Your Son for Every Man's Battle (the parent reads the first half of the book alone, then reads the second half of the book together with their son)

The Purity Movement of the late 90's and early 2000's has gotten a bad rep. Both the lost world and the church have some major critiques of the "purity culture" that was build during this movement. In this episode of Reclaiming...

Join Sarah Hart as she helps take an honest look at the purity movement to see how we can do better in discipling others toward sexual integrity.

Unlearning Purity Culture and Shame. How do we move from Sex Toxicity to Sex Positivity? Many outside of Christianity are moving towards a sex positive way of life. Churches can and need to catch up. Watch Makenzie Gomez speak to this important topic as she starts off our new Series: "Sex Positive." Purity Culture and The Purity Movement is an Industry that came about in the 1990s. It's a predatory theology that has distracted us with controlling rules and restrictions to keep women quiet for the sake of men's egos, resulting in toxic sexual ethics and shame that blocks us from truly connecting with God.

Unlearning Purity Culture and Shame. How do we move from Sex Toxicity to Sex Positivity? Many outside of Christianity are moving towards a sex positive way of life. Churches can and need to catch up. Watch Makenzie Gomez speak to this important topic as she starts off our new Series: "Sex Positive." Purity Culture and The Purity Movement is an Industry that came about in the 1990s. It's a predatory theology that has distracted us with controlling rules and restrictions to keep women quiet for the sake of men's egos, resulting in toxic sexual ethics and shame that blocks us from truly connecting with God.

I grew up in the #JoshuaHarris​ #PurityCulture​ #ikisseddatinggoodbye​ movement in the late 90's early 00's. I wouldn't say that teaching formed inside of me the HEALTHIEST view sex and sexuality. Sooo... How am I navigating that as I attempt to exist in a healthy dating relationship? What has therapy taught me about shame...sexual shame? How does Jesus invite us into a place of freedom and liberation from shame? My good friends, Justin and Delicia Hamilton, young adult pastors at Generation Church in Mesa, AZ invited me to come to speak about shame at their young adult Bible study, April 8, 2021. This is a recording from that gathering. If you would like a transcript of my message/notes, click here: https://www.erinvlashley.com/millennials/2021/4/9/sexual-shame-the-purity-movement-and-healthy-dating --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/erin-lashley/message

Did the purity movement ruin you? Did it ruin us? Should we become Cardi B followers and WAP all over town? Listen in and decide for yourself. Email us at - 4sisters1savior@gmail.com Follow us on Instagram - @4sisters1savior Like us on Facebook - Just Because I Love You: a Four Sisters Podcast Join us on MeWe - Four Sisters: Birth and Motherhood Counseling

Jason Soucinek is the Executive Director and founder of Project Six19. Dedicated to talking honestly about matters of sex, sexuality and relationships. Jason has spent almost two decades engaging audiences of all ages and backgrounds. He is an internationally recognized seminar and conference speaker and published writer on issues surrounding sexuality and youth culture. He can be heard on the following podcasts: DriveTime, Sex + Christian Parents, and CPYU’s podcast “Youth Culture Matters”.Jason and I focus largely on the purity movement and where it went wrong. But we did linger on the question of modesty for a bit, which lead to some back and forth pushbacks on each other's opinions. Learn more about Project Six19 hereWatch this conversation on YouTubeConnect with PrestonTwitter | @PrestonSprinkleInstagram | @preston.sprinkleYoutube | Preston SprinkleCheck out his website prestonsprinkle.comIf you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

What should a biblical sexual purity message look like for today? In this episode, Scott interviews Sean about his latest book: "Chasing Love: Sex, Love, and Relationships In A Confused World." They discuss pressing questions, such as: Is sex really a big deal? Isn't it a private act between consenting? Is a biblical sexual ethic really good for individuals and society? Sean's latest book is part of the True Love Waits campaign that is geared towards helping young people make wise, biblically-based choices in their relationships. They reflect upon earlier purity campaigns and what we can learn from them for today. [Show notes, including a full transcript, are available at www.biola.edu/thinkbiblically]

Mr Daley discusses the purity movement that took over the 80s and 90s off the back of an article he stumbled across on theconversation.com

What are YOUR thoughts about the "Purity Movement" of the past 30 years according to YOUR life experiences? The concept has come under great scrutiny by those who feel like they got "cheated," but could it be that sexual integrity really IS a worthy pursuit? Join Shannon & Former Male Stripper Rob Kowalski as they consider the high price & higher payoff of enjoying sexual intimacy exclusively within marriage.

Linda Kay Klein, renowned Speaker and Author of the best selling “Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free”, makes a profound premier in the Pews. The episode commences with Linda conveying: how she has never felt so welcome on a podcast, life in New York City during COVID, being a Midwesterner at heart, about her husband Jimmy Briggs, how they manage stress now, being a “bonus mom”, her experience in and escape from Evangelical Christianity, what drew her into the religion as a 13 year old, the long term effect on her sexuality, the “True Love Waits” movement and its emphasis on “being sexless”. Then the two Kleins discuss: courting for marriage, “Promise Keepers”, rampant STD’s in the Purity Movement, the process she went through to sexual healing, the prominence of pregnancy tests in attempts for peace-of-mind for some victims, how secular society responded to her story, VP Mike Pence, breaking the brokenness inside, the worldwide impact of her book, her Break Free Together Foundation, the power of story exchange, plus so much more! It ain’t going to be boring. Powerful and poignant adult content, insight, humor and spirituality. NSFW or children. A portion of all proceeds donated to combat human sex slave trafficking and genital mutilation.

When I first heard about the Purity movement, it was from the Jonas Brothers. Each brother with their own little ring, suggesting that they wouldn't be having sex until marriage. Which, wow. The willpower required to do that as a world-famous musician. Not surprised that didn't go well. I also had some friends who took it on earlier in life. But until I did this interview I really had no understanding of what living like would do to my mind. In this interview, I speak with a good friend of mine who waited til marriage. I count myself lucky in a lot of ways, but I never expected to feel that way about this. One final note, no hate towards people in the movement. This is the exploration of some of the aftermath when someone is encouraged to rapidly change their mindset from "sex is sinful and bad" to "you should have all the sex and please your husband". The book recommendation that showed up on the podcast is PURE by Linda Kay Klein. For questions or messages you'd like to pass along to our guest, please contact me directly. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/greatdate/support

On this episode, we talk about a lot of topics. We talk about Joshua Harris and the purity movement. We also mentioned how Christians can live in a legalistic way by putting their assurance on their performance. Sadly, many Christians live in a life of …

My kids, raised in the '90s, experienced the purity movement that swept our evangelical churches. Remember the rose? Every time you have sex, you pluck a petal off until you only have a thorny stick to give your husband. Today we are talking with Kristin Kobes Du Mez about the origins of the Sexual Purity Movement. Kristen holds a Ph.D. from the University of Notre Dame and is a history and gender study professor at Calvin College. Her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, and politics.

My kids, raised in the '90s, experienced the purity movement that swept our evangelical churches. Remember the rose? Every time you have sex, you pluck a petal off until you only have a thorny stick to give your husband. For most of our listeners, that's what they know of the purity movement, but let's go back a bit and see if we can't understand more about this movement and its impact on our thoughts about sex today. Today we are talking with Kristin Kobes Du Mez. Kristen holds a Ph.D. from the University of Notre Dame and is a history and gender study professor at Cavin College. Her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, and politics.https://www.amazon.com/New-Gospel-Women-Katharine-Challenge/dp/0190205644https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-John-Wayne-Evangelicals-Corrupted/dp/1631495739

This week, Leslie takes a deeper look into the Purity Movement and how we can apply biblical keys to breakthrough the modern-day confusion that surrounds romantic relationships. In a world that wants to kiss purity goodbye, Leslie reminds us of an important truth — purity was first and foremost God’s idea. Discover the beautiful pattern God intended for purity and romance with this episode. Support this podcast

Author Linda Kay Klein discusses her book Pure, in which, alongside her recounting of her own experiences in the evangelical purity movement, she features profiles and interviews with other women dealing with and recovering from their past experiences in the movement. Linda holds an interdisciplinary Masters degree in gender studies, religious studies, oral history, nonfiction writing, and art as social change from NYU, and is founder and president of the nonprofit Break Free Together. Her website is lindakayklein.com.

Did "True Love Waits" Leave You Feeling "Neutered?" - part 2 Shannon, Michele, and Pastor Vincent Smith continue their conversation about the generation that feels "duped" by the Purity Movement... why that message seemed like a good idea at the time... how to heal the damage done... and how to provide a more balanced conversation about healthy sexuality with the next generation of young people!

Over 20 years ago, there was a movement in our country to have teenagers sign pledges of abstinence until marriage. Some of those teens are now in their 30s and have a bitter taste in their mouth from "drinking that Kool-Aid" so to speak. Join Shannon & Michele as they have a candid conversation with Pastor Vincent Smith, who speaks on behalf of many in his generation who feel somewhat "duped" by the Purity Movement and the "Silver Ring Thing!"

Manda sheds light on the "Purity Movement" that shaped her upbringing: how it made her view sex as a teenager, how it altered her choices pre-marriage, and how it has impacted her current sex-life. If you're: saving sex for marriage, currently having sex and loving it, currently having sex and NOT loving it, struggling with your sexual past, or concerned your sex life isn't "normal" - this episode is for you.

In this episode, Danielle and Maggie chat with Matthias Roberts, the author of Beyond Shame and the host of the Queerology: A Podcast about Belief and Being. He holds a M.A. in Theology and Culture and a M.A. in Counseling Psychology, both from the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology where he is also an associate instructor. He is Licensed Mental Health Counselor Associate (LMHCA) in the state of Washington and specializes in LBGTQ+ trauma and faith.His new book, Beyond Shame, is written for anyone who grew up in under the purity movement—rigid rules about sexuality. US was founded on Puritanical ideals and we're just now beginning to see how harmful in the ways we've been policing bodies. How do we work with that our sexual shame and move beyond shame towards confident flouring lives and sexuality?Matthias says we first need to recognize what you're working with: acknowledge that the shame you feel. See the ways we are trying to cope with our shame.Three coping mechanisms that we use to deal/avoid with shame:Shame Full-ness: We let shame rule our lives and sexuality. We push it down and hide it, do not express it. Shame less-ness: Let our “freedom” rule over our shame, we do whatever we want. We're running away from shame, instead of dealing with it. Auto-pilot: Either we've done our shame work, or do not have as much sexual shame (grown up in sex positive environment), but when sexuality pops up we feel shame and because it's not pervasive enough we don't engage it. Once we know what coping mechanisms are at play we can ask ourselves, “If this is the shape of my shame, what can I then do to start working with it in a honest way.“Good intentions” can not be an escape from working with your shame. We can acknowledge good intentions, like when mom says “don't look” when a woman is on the tv screen. We don't want to over sexualize our kids, so there is goodness in that. But when you're body starts to have biological responses and you really want to look at this, cognitive dissonance happens. When the only messages that you've been told is “You are dirty, you are bad. God will hate you if you enjoy looking…” Thats where shame gets mixed in.There's a both and. You can say that “my parents really were doing the best that they could” and “I'm still left with debilitating shame.” Honesty is that both of these are true. “We can be messed up with good intentions."Matthias hopes that people will find themselves among the chapters. Coping mechanisms have helped us get through life. “When someone puts language to what you know to be very true in your body… it can be really uncomfortable but also feel really freeing." There's a different way to live! We no longer have to live out of our coping mechanisms, we can live out of groundedness and what our actual values are, which is much more satisfying.We need a faith that can move in these space (in our sexuality and our shame). We shouldn't have to reject our faith in order to navigate honestly.His book arose out of a personal question—he found the things he had been taught about sex and sexuality didn't seem to be working. For example, sex outside of marriage. He kept seeing people of deep faith operating in different ways. Personal longing: what are these other pope seeing that I don't and how do I apply that to what I have been taught. Who do I believe God is? Is God a God of freedom? A god who invites us to flouring within our relationships, bodies and sexuality? Is it this rigid one-size fits all model or is there space for people to have different values about their bodies and sexuality?“God is so much bigger than what I was taught. God is not in the business of making moralistic black and white rules…. I don't think that's who God is.”  God is complex and so are we!Sexuality is a hot button for people. Race too. It's a topic that's been glossed over. The complexity has not been address in either.We as a culture have an issue with embodiment. When we gloss over the complexities, it says a lot about who we are as particular bodies, particular people who live in particular environments. One size fits all is literally impossible, it does not work.There needs to be a curiosity about why we are so disembodied. How can we engage our faith and sexuality by bringing the fullness of our humanity.Are we fearfully and wonderfully made or are we not?Do I believe that about me and do I believe that about you?Matthias started his podcast Queerology three years ago with a desire to engage the intersection of being LBGTQ and a person of faith. He wanted to address the question: What does it mean to live faithfully, to live well, as LBGTQ people of faith? It was a movement beyond the question can I be gay and be a person of faith. It's conversations around queerness and “what we believe and what we're doing in the world.” He talks about how faith informs work as a queer person.March 24th launches season 4!Matthias describes what it means to be Queer: it uses “queer” to be an umbrella term. Anyone who falls outside of a hetero-world (one man one women), who identifies as “different” but doesn't want a strict label.  “I sit in a space of difference” which allows everyone their own particular story.To support Matthias work and Queerology you can go to paetron.com/matthiasrobertsWithin the state of Washington you can reach out to him for therapy work. He offers intensive weekends also. He has resources as well for being queer and a person of faith. Matthias is reading: 9 Perfect Strangers by Liane Moriarty Matthias is listening to:Matthias is inspired by the Story Grid by Shawn CoyneYou can connect with Matthias at www.matthiasroberts.com Tune in to his podcast Queerology: On  Belief and Being wherever you get your podcasts. 

How should Christians have sex? And how, exactly, should we talk about it in light of the past "purity movement?" Links: www.forthehope.org/blog/jesus-sex-and-the-purity-conversation

Scout and Karyn recap the first chapter of a maintext of the 90s Purity Movement, then dive into questions about celebrity obsessions, bad baby-sitting gigs, and embarrassing parents. If you’re struggling with anxiety or depression, you can reach out to someone for free using Crisis Text Line. RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network) is the … Continue reading "ACS Episode 022 – A Tampon is Nothing Like a Lipstick"

Preston has his good friend Jason Soucinek on the show to talk about all the stuff referenced in the title. Jason is an expert in sex and youth culture, along with many other related topics. They talk a lot about porn in the first part of the podcast, but then get into purity culture, purity rings, Joshua Harris, and the relationship between sex and procreation.Support PrestonSupport Preston by going to patreon.comConnect with PrestonTwitter | @PrestonSprinkleInstagram | @preston.sprinkleCheck out his website prestonsprinkle.comIf you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Why am I "against" the movement? --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/ian-along/message

Let's talk about the Purity Movement, and why it can be problematic. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/ian-along/message

Joshua Harris' book, and also the purity movement. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/ian-along/message

"I always thought that if I did everything the way God told us to, then I would be blessed, I would be happy and I would have a good marriage. That was decidedly not the case."  Well-meaning parents and youth pastors promised marital bliss if you could only make it to the altar as a virgin. For many, the promise didn't deliver. In this episode, Juli brings truth and compassion to the imperfect purity message of the 90s.  Mentioned in this episode: Join us for our August 6th webinar on addressing sexual brokenness with both truth & love. Episode #160: Why God Created You To Be Sexual Episode #166: We Are All Sexually Broken Rethinking Sexuality        

Ben and Kami discuss Kami's sexual history and the shame and difficulty in their marriage and do a book review on Linda Kay Klein's book: Pure. PURE by Linda Kay Klein https://amzn.to/2K26lcO Leave us a message: (206) 651-5744 Discuss on FB: https://goo.gl/THhxCF We're writing a book (get updates) https://goo.gl/wfaEaY YouTube: https://goo.gl/Uwo9wb Vlog: https://www.youtube.com/c/FightforTogether Our book, coffee, and camera recommendations https://www.amazon.com/shop/fightfortogether Thank you for supporting our work! https://www.patreon.com/fightfortogether paypal.me/fightfortogether Venmo - @fightfortogether CONNECT IG: https://instagram.com/fightfortogether/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/fightfortogether/ TW: https://twitter.com/fight4together FFT@crawfordlife.com RECORDED May 23, 2019 --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/fightfortogether/support

This week on the podcast I speak with Emily Joy about her experience leaving evangelicalism under a cloud of sexual abuse. Years later she and a friend started the #ChurchToo hashtag which has become a national phenomenon.BIOEmily is a spoken word poet, yoga teacher and activist living and working in Nashville, Tennessee. Her advocacy takes place at the intersection of faith, sexuality and healing, and her work has been featured in Time, Cosmopolitan, Jezebel, Mother Jones, The Huffington Post and more. Emily is the co-creator of the #ChurchToo hashtag, a #MeToo spinoff exposing sexual violence in Christian churches and other faith communities. She is also a sexuality education writer for the website Scarleteen and in her spare time, works at a church. More about Emily and her work can be found at emilyjoypoetry.com. You can find Emily online on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at the username, @EmilyJoyPoetry (links below).LINKS Emily Joy's website | http://www.emilyjoypoetry.comAs a Teen, Emily Joy Was Abused by a Church Youth Leader. Now She’s Leading a Movement to Change Evangelical America | https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2018/05/evangelical-church-metoo-movement-abuse/The #ChurchToo Movement Isn’t Just About Gender | https://jezebel.com/the-churchtoo-movement-isn-t-just-about-gender-1826431915Inside the Scam of the "Purity" Movement | https://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a26026217/sexual-abstinence-joshua-harris-purity-movement-scam/Sexual Abuse Happens In #ChurchToo — We’re Living Proof | https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sexual-abuse-churchtoo_us_5a205b30e4b03350e0b53131Abuse of Faith | https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/article/Southern-Baptist-sexual-abuse-spreads-as-leaders-13588038.phpLIFE AFTER GODWebsite | http://www.lifeaftergod.orgFacebook | http://www.facebook.com/ourlifeaftergodTwitter | http://www.twitter.com/ourlifeaftergodInstagram | http://www.instagram.com/ourlifeaftergodSupport the production of this podcast and the work of Life After God by becoming a Patronhttp://www.patreon.com/lifeaftergod

In the tenth episode of Listening at the Fire, host Virginia Anzengruber moderates a conversation with celebrated sex educator and speaker Zoë Ligon about her relationship to sexuality, trauma, healing, and spirituality -- and the tension points in her life that connect them all. An audience Q&A session followed. Connect with her at zoe@spectrumboutique.com Zoë Ligon is the owner of Spectrum Boutique in Detroit, Michigan. She is the host of the "Sex Stuff" series on SuperDeluxe, is a freelance collaborator with TIME, Refinery29, and Yahoo Style (among others), and her Instagram profile (@thongria) has over 210k followers and is growing daily.   EPISODE NOTES: “Sex Stuff” Series on YouTube from SuperDeluxe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1iFNXkJhuA Queer Clergy Trading Cards, by Rev. Dr. Chris Davies: http://queerclergytradingcards.org/ Peterson Toscano, “Transfigurations: Transgressing Gender in the Bible”: http://www.barclaypressbookstore.com/transfigurations.html? - DVD via Barclay Press http://a.co/d/huIiuPD - Amazon digital video   Joseph and the Coat of Many Colors Alternate Translation: Genesis 37, 39-45 The Hebrew word (I said Greek in the recording -- it’s Hebrew!) for “robe” or “coat” here is “Ketonit Passim” (Genesis 37:3) The only other time this phrase for robe is present in the Old Testament is in 2 Samuel 13 2 Samuel 13 tells the story of Tamar, King David’s daughter, who was raped. In her mourning, she rent her garment/tore her dress. The Greek word for “dress” here is “Ketonit Passim” or simply, a “princess dress” (2 Samuel 13: 18-19) If we take this interpretation (which, it has to be at least one possible interpretation, because it’s there in the text), and apply it to the Joseph story, it is possible that Joseph’s brothers attacked him and tore his robe because there was something transgressive about the clothing he was wearing -- perhaps he was wearing a “princess dress”?   Sex Education Resources and Educators: Ericka Hart: https://www.instagram.com/ihartericka/?hl=en Rachel Cargle: https://www.instagram.com/rachel.cargle/?hl=en Layla F. Saad: https://www.instagram.com/laylafsaad/?hl=en J. Mase III, poet, “Josephine” & “Reconciling my Queer Faith”: https://www.instagram.com/jmaseiii/?hl=en | https://bit.ly/2EoYoeJ Red Hot Suz: https://www.redhotsuz.com/ Carly S: https://twitter.com/makeupandsin?lang=en Crash Pad Series, Queer Sexuality: http://crashpadseries.com/ “Romans 1:18-32 amidst the gay debate: Interpretive options” by Jeremy Punt, Department of Old & New Testament, University of Stellenboch: https://www.ajol.info/index.php/hts/article/viewFile/41234/8622 Open Path Therapy Collective: with $49 joining fee and sliding scale ($30-$60 per session), works without insurance: https://openpathcollective.org/ WOCSHN: Woman of Color Sexual Health Network, database of health professionals doing internet based treatment http://www.wocshn.org/ AASECT: American Association of Sexual Educators, Counselors, and Therapists https://www.aasect.org/ “Inside the Scam of The Purity Movement”, https://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a26026217/sexual-abstinence-joshua-harris-purity-movement-scam/   *The views of the host are not necessarily the views of Fountain Street Church. New episodes of Listening at the Fire will release every other Friday at https://www.fountainstreet.org/podcast NOW AVAILABLE ON ITUNES, and always at https://www.fountainstreet.org/podcast. Episode credits: Producer/Host: Virginia Anzengruber Editor: Virginia Anzengruber Guest Speaker: Zoë Ligon, owner of Spectrum Boutique https://spectrumboutique.com/ Special Thanks To: Rev. Dr. Chris Davies for providing research and source material, and especially for responding to me while on vacation. Be sure to check out Queer Clergy Trading Cards at http://queerclergytradingcards.org/ Theme song: "Alone Again" by Kingsbury. Her new song "Blurry Now" is available on Spotify, and the new music video for "All Gone" is now on YouTube.

Overcoming Sexual Shame In her work, Sellers places considerable emphasis on reversing sexual shame in her clients' and readers' minds. Growing up in a sexually-open environment, with parents who were very transparent about sexual function, health, and education, Tina learned the importance of communication over the suppression of sexual fact. And by extension, she is a vocal opponent of abstinence-only techniques which are ineffective and detrimental to the overall sexual wellbeing of all who are involved. Tina also likes to probe the depths of religious history to offer broader perspectives on how sexuality and religion can function symbiotically instead of antagonistically. Without further ado, much more is expounded upon within the episode. It is an absolutely phenomenal experience, navigated by an equally phenomenal guest. Enjoy! Sex, God, and the Conservative Church: A Sexual Autobiography? Not exactly. Tina had an upbringing that runs counter to a typical conservative church experience. She grew up in a Swedish immigrant family where everyone was body and sex positive. In addition, sexuality was taught in a transparent manner. This meant that the typical drip-feed of sexual shame had been replaced with a far more positive apparatus for sexual wellbeing and curiosity. Tina goes on to say much more about her background and the importance of her upbringing throughout the episode! Transforming a Fragmented Narrative into a Sexual Legacy So, why would Tina write a book about the suppression of sexuality in religiously-centered families, when she herself had experienced a far-from-stifling upbringing? To completely answer this question requires a brief review of a moment in her life that determined the direction of her research. The pieces for her book began to fall into place during her time as a professor. And more specifically, when she organized assignments that directed her Human Sexuality students to make autobiographical accounts of their own sexual experiences. And it was during the countless drafts she read that she started to notice an influx of narratives that all became pointedly self-conscious and self-disparaging. What had originally been a fragmented narrative began to congeal into a fleshed-out profile of individual sexuality. But what could have caused this shift in perception? Tune in to find out more! The Limitations of Legalism and Abstinence-Only Sellers delves into some of the origins of the more Evangelically-driven modes of thought. Legalistic adherence to biblical laws, literalism, a harsh criticism of sexual expression, and the power and money at the root of all socio-political movements. In addition, she accentuates the fact that the abstinence-only strategies are mentally detrimental for children. Eventually, once a child matures and becomes sexually active, abstinence-only techniques prove to be much more harmful than establishing regular dialogues on sexuality. Most of this is socio-politically and religiously driven, like the Purity Movement. Seriously, this information is worth its weight in gold. You won't want to miss it! The Phenomenology of Sexual Shame At one point in the episode, Tina shares a quote which provides an absolutely nuanced and fresh perspective on the idea of sexual shame. But at the same time, it is heartbreaking in its accuracy. This is a portion of what is said on the phenomenology of sexual shame: “A visceral feeling of humiliation and disgust towards one's own body and identity as a sexual being. A belief of being abnormal, inferior, and unworthy.” And this has been reinforced by our socio-political climate. For more on the phenomenology of sexual shame, listen along. Comprehensive Sex-Ed: 100, 1-minute conversations Tina says that a comprehensive sexual education is imperative for shifting the legacy of sexual of shame. With enough discussions, just 100, one-minute conversations, the statistics show that individuals will almost always go on to live healthier sexual lives. They also feel much better about their bodies overall. This means that parents must start very soon with their kids, shouldn't have ‘heart attacks' when children show curiosity towards their bodies (or the differences in others' bodies), and let things come about naturally without “childproofing the mind,” so to speak. The Model For Erasing Sexual Shame (MESS) Tina shares one of the most important facets of her book with listeners. Using a four-part strategy for reversing sexual shame, she teaches us that we need to frame, name, claim, and aim if we expect to get rid of our sexual shame. First, we must have the proper frame for sexual education. This means that instead of porn, which often reflects only a male-driven fantasy, individuals need to have a sexual education that is instead based in reality. The frame is the “scaffolding” for a healthy sexuality, as Sellers says--it could even be called a frame of reference. The second, name, is equally important: we must name, or tell our story. To learn what claim and aim mean in this formula, check out this enlightening talk. The Mind/Body Divide: A Perspective Shift Towards Sinful Sex In some of the closing moments of the interview, Tina gives listeners a history lesson dating back all the way to Aristotle and up to Constantine. She states that the severance of the mind from the body started with the original Greek thinkers (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle) and largely affected the overall ideological shape of Christianity. Using eastern religion as a foil for western thought, she shows how the mind and body are actually unified in Eastern-based religions and thus generally have a more positive impact on sexual wellbeing for its adherents. Christianity, on the other hand, teaches the supremacy of the mind over the body, leading to a sexual suppression that is hard to shake. This can lead to unhealthy levels of sexual shame in those who are taught that the body must be grappled with and suppressed. The Vow of Onah Sellers shows us that there are a lot of Hebrew sources that portray sexually-positive messages. The most powerful of these being the Vow of Onah, which reverses the typical gender roles of the time period, favoring women over men. One of the oaths of The Vow of Onah is that “Sex is considered a woman's right, not a man's.” For the full list and a detailed response, check the key links and information below and read the blog post that Tina wrote on the subject. It's eye-opening. Background She is the celebrated author of Sex, God, and the Conservative Church: Erasing Shame from Sexual Intimacy. In addition to her exemplary research and compositional work on that book, she has a Ph.D. in Clinical Sexology and has established a very impressive reputation as a marriage and family therapist, medical family therapist, and also, a certified sex therapist. She has been a professor for many years now, starting as a Latin and science teacher in La Jolla, California. Eventually, this would lead to her teaching a sexual education course in the same prep school. And this launched the specialized career she has been diligently working at for years. Key Links and Information Regarding Tina Sellers Tina's Website: http://tinaschermersellers.com/ Link for Tina's book - Sex, God, and the Conservative Church: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1138674982 ‘Vow of Onah' Blog Post Written by Tina Sellers: http://tinaschermersellers.com/2011/02/12/the-vow-of-onah-and-other-jewish-attitudes-about-sex/ Northwest Institute on Intimacy: https://nwioi.com/ 4-D Network: https://4-dnetwork.com/ Thank God For Sex: http://www.thankgodforsex.org/ She Is Called: https://www.sheiscalled.com/ More info: Book and New Course - https://sexwithoutstress.com Web - https://www.bettersexpodcast.com/ Sex Health Quiz - http://sexhealthquiz.com/ If you're enjoying the podcast and want to be a part of making sure it continues in the future, consider being a patron. With a small monthly pledge, you can support the costs of putting this show together. For as little as $2 per month, you can get advance access to each episode. For just a bit more, you will receive an advance copy of a chapter of my new book. And for $10 per month, you get all that plus an invitation to an online Q&A chat with me once a quarter. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/bettersexpodcast Better Sex with Jessa Zimmerman https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/better-sex/More info and resources: How Big a Problem is Your Sex Life? Quiz – https://www.sexlifequiz.com The Course – https://www.intimacywithease.com The Book – https://www.sexwithoutstress.com Podcast Website – https://www.intimacywithease.com Access the Free webinar: How to make sex easy and fun for both of you: https://intimacywithease.com/masterclass Secret Podcast for the Higher Desire Partner: https://www.intimacywithease.com/hdppodcast Secret Podcast for the Lower Desire Partner: https://www.intimacywithease.com/ldppodcast

Overcoming Sexual ShameIn her work, Sellers places considerable emphasis on reversing sexual shame in her clients’ and readers’ minds. Growing up in a sexually-open environment, with parents who were very transparent about sexual function, health, and education, Tina learned the importance of communication over the suppression of sexual fact. And by extension, she is a vocal opponent of abstinence-only techniques which are ineffective and detrimental to the overall sexual wellbeing of all who are involved.Tina also likes to probe the depths of religious history to offer broader perspectives on how sexuality and religion can function symbiotically instead of antagonistically.Without further ado, much more is expounded upon within the episode. It is an absolutely phenomenal experience, navigated by an equally phenomenal guest. Enjoy!Sex, God, and the Conservative Church: A Sexual Autobiography?Not exactly. Tina had an upbringing that runs counter to a typical conservative church experience. She grew up in a Swedish immigrant family where everyone was body and sex positive. In addition, sexuality was taught in a transparent manner. This meant that the typical drip-feed of sexual shame had been replaced with a far more positive apparatus for sexual wellbeing and curiosity. Tina goes on to say much more about her background and the importance of her upbringing throughout the episode!Transforming a Fragmented Narrative into a Sexual LegacySo, why would Tina write a book about the suppression of sexuality in religiously-centered families, when she herself had experienced a far-from-stifling upbringing? To completely answer this question requires a brief review of a moment in her life that determined the direction of her research.The pieces for her book began to fall into place during her time as a professor. And more specifically, when she organized assignments that directed her Human Sexuality students to make autobiographical accounts of their own sexual experiences. And it was during the countless drafts she read that she started to notice an influx of narratives that all became pointedly self-conscious and self-disparaging. What had originally been a fragmented narrative began to congeal into a fleshed-out profile of individual sexuality. But what could have caused this shift in perception? Tune in to find out more!The Limitations of Legalism and Abstinence-OnlySellers delves into some of the origins of the more Evangelically-driven modes of thought. Legalistic adherence to biblical laws, literalism, a harsh criticism of sexual expression, and the power and money at the root of all socio-political movements. In addition, she accentuates the fact that the abstinence-only strategies are mentally detrimental for children. Eventually, once a child matures and becomes sexually active, abstinence-only techniques prove to be much more harmful than establishing regular dialogues on sexuality. Most of this is socio-politically and religiously driven, like the Purity Movement. Seriously, this information is worth its weight in gold. You won’t want to miss it!The Phenomenology of Sexual ShameAt one point in the episode, Tina shares a quote which provides an absolutely nuanced and fresh perspective on the idea of sexual shame. But at the same time, it is heartbreaking in its accuracy. This is a portion of what is said on the phenomenology of sexual shame: “A visceral feeling of humiliation and disgust towards one’s own body and identity as a sexual being. A belief of being abnormal, inferior, and unworthy.” And this has been reinforced by our socio-political climate. For more on the phenomenology of sexual shame, listen along.Comprehensive Sex-Ed: 100, 1-minute conversationsTina says that a comprehensive sexual education is imperative for shifting the legacy of sexual of shame. With enough discussions, just 100, one-minute conversations, the statistics show that individuals will almost always go on to live healthier sexual lives. They also feel much better about their bodies overall. This means that parents must start very soon with their kids, shouldn’t have ‘heart attacks’ when children show curiosity towards their bodies (or the differences in others’ bodies), and let things come about naturally without “childproofing the mind,” so to speak.The Model For Erasing Sexual Shame (MESS)Tina shares one of the most important facets of her book with listeners. Using a four-part strategy for reversing sexual shame, she teaches us that we need to frame, name, claim, and aim if we expect to get rid of our sexual shame. First, we must have the proper frame for sexual education. This means that instead of porn, which often reflects only a male-driven fantasy, individuals need to have a sexual education that is instead based in reality. The frame is the “scaffolding” for a healthy sexuality, as Sellers says--it could even be called a frame of reference. The second, name, is equally important: we must name, or tell our story. To learn what claim and aim mean in this formula, check out this enlightening talk.The Mind/Body Divide: A Perspective Shift Towards Sinful SexIn some of the closing moments of the interview, Tina gives listeners a history lesson dating back all the way to Aristotle and up to Constantine. She states that the severance of the mind from the body started with the original Greek thinkers (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle) and largely affected the overall ideological shape of Christianity. Using eastern religion as a foil for western thought, she shows how the mind and body are actually unified in Eastern-based religions and thus generally have a more positive impact on sexual wellbeing for its adherents. Christianity, on the other hand, teaches the supremacy of the mind over the body, leading to a sexual suppression that is hard to shake. This can lead to unhealthy levels of sexual shame in those who are taught that the body must be grappled with and suppressed.The Vow of OnahSellers shows us that there are a lot of Hebrew sources that portray sexually-positive messages. The most powerful of these being the Vow of Onah, which reverses the typical gender roles of the time period, favoring women over men. One of the oaths of The Vow of Onah is that “Sex is considered a woman’s right, not a man’s.” For the full list and a detailed response, check the key links and information below and read the blog post that Tina wrote on the subject. It’s eye-opening.BackgroundShe is the celebrated author of Sex, God, and the Conservative Church: Erasing Shame from Sexual Intimacy. In addition to her exemplary research and compositional work on that book, she has a Ph.D. in Clinical Sexology and has established a very impressive reputation as a marriage and family therapist, medical family therapist, and also, a certified sex therapist.She has been a professor for many years now, starting as a Latin and science teacher in La Jolla, California. Eventually, this would lead to her teaching a sexual education course in the same prep school. And this launched the specialized career she has been diligently working at for years.Key Links and Information Regarding Tina SellersTina’s Website: http://tinaschermersellers.com/Link for Tina’s book - Sex, God, and the Conservative Church: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1138674982‘Vow of Onah’ Blog Post Written by Tina Sellers: http://tinaschermersellers.com/2011/02/12/the-vow-of-onah-and-other-jewish-attitudes-about-sex/Northwest Institute on Intimacy: https://nwioi.com/4-D Network: https://4-dnetwork.com/Thank God For Sex: http://www.thankgodforsex.org/She Is Called: https://www.sheiscalled.com/More info:Book and New Course - https://sexwithoutstress.comWeb - https://www.bettersexpodcast.com/Sex Health Quiz - http://sexhealthquiz.com/If you’re enjoying the podcast and want to be a part of making sure it continues in the future, consider being a patron. With a small monthly pledge, you can support the costs of putting this show together. For as little as $2 per month, you can get advance access to each episode. For just a bit more, you will receive an advance copy of a chapter of my new book. And for $10 per month, you get all that plus an invitation to an online Q&A chat with me once a quarter. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/bettersexpodcastBetter Sex with Jessa Zimmermanhttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/better-sex/

Overcoming Sexual ShameIn her work, Sellers places considerable emphasis on reversing sexual shame in her clients’ and readers’ minds. Growing up in a sexually-open environment, with parents who were very transparent about sexual function, health, and education, Tina learned the importance of communication over the suppression of sexual fact. And by extension, she is a vocal opponent of abstinence-only techniques which are ineffective and detrimental to the overall sexual wellbeing of all who are involved.Tina also likes to probe the depths of religious history to offer broader perspectives on how sexuality and religion can function symbiotically instead of antagonistically.Without further ado, much more is expounded upon within the episode. It is an absolutely phenomenal experience, navigated by an equally phenomenal guest. Enjoy!Sex, God, and the Conservative Church: A Sexual Autobiography?Not exactly. Tina had an upbringing that runs counter to a typical conservative church experience. She grew up in a Swedish immigrant family where everyone was body and sex positive. In addition, sexuality was taught in a transparent manner. This meant that the typical drip-feed of sexual shame had been replaced with a far more positive apparatus for sexual wellbeing and curiosity. Tina goes on to say much more about her background and the importance of her upbringing throughout the episode!Transforming a Fragmented Narrative into a Sexual LegacySo, why would Tina write a book about the suppression of sexuality in religiously-centered families, when she herself had experienced a far-from-stifling upbringing? To completely answer this question requires a brief review of a moment in her life that determined the direction of her research.The pieces for her book began to fall into place during her time as a professor. And more specifically, when she organized assignments that directed her Human Sexuality students to make autobiographical accounts of their own sexual experiences. And it was during the countless drafts she read that she started to notice an influx of narratives that all became pointedly self-conscious and self-disparaging. What had originally been a fragmented narrative began to congeal into a fleshed-out profile of individual sexuality. But what could have caused this shift in perception? Tune in to find out more!The Limitations of Legalism and Abstinence-OnlySellers delves into some of the origins of the more Evangelically-driven modes of thought. Legalistic adherence to biblical laws, literalism, a harsh criticism of sexual expression, and the power and money at the root of all socio-political movements. In addition, she accentuates the fact that the abstinence-only strategies are mentally detrimental for children. Eventually, once a child matures and becomes sexually active, abstinence-only techniques prove to be much more harmful than establishing regular dialogues on sexuality. Most of this is socio-politically and religiously driven, like the Purity Movement. Seriously, this information is worth its weight in gold. You won’t want to miss it!The Phenomenology of Sexual ShameAt one point in the episode, Tina shares a quote which provides an absolutely nuanced and fresh perspective on the idea of sexual shame. But at the same time, it is heartbreaking in its accuracy. This is a portion of what is said on the phenomenology of sexual shame: “A visceral feeling of humiliation and disgust towards one’s own body and identity as a sexual being. A belief of being abnormal, inferior, and unworthy.” And this has been reinforced by our socio-political climate. For more on the phenomenology of sexual shame, listen along.Comprehensive Sex-Ed: 100, 1-minute conversationsTina says that a comprehensive sexual education is imperative for shifting the legacy of sexual of shame. With enough discussions, just 100, one-minute conversations, the statistics show that individuals will almost always go on to live healthier sexual lives. They also feel much better about their bodies overall. This means that parents must start very soon with their kids, shouldn’t have ‘heart attacks’ when children show curiosity towards their bodies (or the differences in others’ bodies), and let things come about naturally without “childproofing the mind,” so to speak.The Model For Erasing Sexual Shame (MESS)Tina shares one of the most important facets of her book with listeners. Using a four-part strategy for reversing sexual shame, she teaches us that we need to frame, name, claim, and aim if we expect to get rid of our sexual shame. First, we must have the proper frame for sexual education. This means that instead of porn, which often reflects only a male-driven fantasy, individuals need to have a sexual education that is instead based in reality. The frame is the “scaffolding” for a healthy sexuality, as Sellers says--it could even be called a frame of reference. The second, name, is equally important: we must name, or tell our story. To learn what claim and aim mean in this formula, check out this enlightening talk.The Mind/Body Divide: A Perspective Shift Towards Sinful SexIn some of the closing moments of the interview, Tina gives listeners a history lesson dating back all the way to Aristotle and up to Constantine. She states that the severance of the mind from the body started with the original Greek thinkers (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle) and largely affected the overall ideological shape of Christianity. Using eastern religion as a foil for western thought, she shows how the mind and body are actually unified in Eastern-based religions and thus generally have a more positive impact on sexual wellbeing for its adherents. Christianity, on the other hand, teaches the supremacy of the mind over the body, leading to a sexual suppression that is hard to shake. This can lead to unhealthy levels of sexual shame in those who are taught that the body must be grappled with and suppressed.The Vow of OnahSellers shows us that there are a lot of Hebrew sources that portray sexually-positive messages. The most powerful of these being the Vow of Onah, which reverses the typical gender roles of the time period, favoring women over men. One of the oaths of The Vow of Onah is that “Sex is considered a woman’s right, not a man’s.” For the full list and a detailed response, check the key links and information below and read the blog post that Tina wrote on the subject. It’s eye-opening.BackgroundShe is the celebrated author of Sex, God, and the Conservative Church: Erasing Shame from Sexual Intimacy. In addition to her exemplary research and compositional work on that book, she has a Ph.D. in Clinical Sexology and has established a very impressive reputation as a marriage and family therapist, medical family therapist, and also, a certified sex therapist.She has been a professor for many years now, starting as a Latin and science teacher in La Jolla, California. Eventually, this would lead to her teaching a sexual education course in the same prep school. And this launched the specialized career she has been diligently working at for years.Key Links and Information Regarding Tina SellersTina’s Website: http://tinaschermersellers.com/Link for Tina’s book - Sex, God, and the Conservative Church: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1138674982‘Vow of Onah’ Blog Post Written by Tina Sellers: http://tinaschermersellers.com/2011/02/12/the-vow-of-onah-and-other-jewish-attitudes-about-sex/Northwest Institute on Intimacy: https://nwioi.com/4-D Network: https://4-dnetwork.com/Thank God For Sex: http://www.thankgodforsex.org/She Is Called: https://www.sheiscalled.com/More info:Book and New Course - https://sexwithoutstress.comWeb - https://www.bettersexpodcast.com/Sex Health Quiz - http://sexhealthquiz.com/If you’re enjoying the podcast and want to be a part of making sure it continues in the future, consider being a patron. With a small monthly pledge, you can support the costs of putting this show together. For as little as $2 per month, you can get advance access to each episode. For just a bit more, you will receive an advance copy of a chapter of my new book. And for $10 per month, you get all that plus an invitation to an online Q&A chat with me once a quarter. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/bettersexpodcastBetter Sex with Jessa Zimmermanhttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/better-sex/

"I always thought that if I did everything the way God told us to, then I would be blessed, I would be happy and I would have a good marriage. That was decidedly not the case."  Well-meaning parents and youth pastors promised marital bliss if you could only make it to the altar as a virgin. For many, the promise didn't deliver. In this episode, Juli brings truth and compassion to the imperfect purity message of the 90s.  Mentioned in this episode: Rethinking Sexuality Surprised By the Healer

Linda Kay Klein, the author of PURE: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free, joins me today. She is the founder of Break Free Together, an organization committed to helping people claim their whole selves—mind, spirit, and body. Linda’s work has been featured on NPR’s Fresh Air with Terry Gross, Elle.com, GoodHousekeeping.com, and many others.  Linda is a trained Our Whole Lives (OWL) sexuality education facilitator and Vice Chair of the Board for the Forum for Theological Exploration. She holds an interdisciplinary Masters degree from NYU, where she focused on American Evangelical Christian sex and gender messaging for girls. By the title of the book alone, you can tell where this conversation is heading. If you grew up in the True Love Waits or I Kissed Dating Goodbye culture then you will find this very interesting. We talk about growing up during the purity movement, where this movement came from and what it was a reaction to. We also talk about the fear and shame that have been used as external motivations for purity and how we can start building a healthy conversation around sexuality. This conversation may be uncomfortable or awkward or it may cause you to feel frustrated. But  this is such an important conversation for us to have especially if you grew up in the purity movement and especially if you are now parenting kids after growing up through that movement. We have to be aware of the shame that we carry—we can’t build shame resilient kids if we don’t address our own shame. And we have to be committed to figure out how to have conversations around sexuality that don’t include shame. Links Mentioned: Linda’s book: PURE: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free Daring Greatly by Brenè Brown Linda’s organization Break Free Together Connect: SarahBragg.com Sarah on Instagram & twitter & FB Shownotes Sponsors: Warby Parker - for FREE Home Try-On Kit go to warbyparker.com/survive

Author of Pure discusses the Purity Movement, an evangelical movement that shamed a generation of young women, and how to break free.

Author of Pure discusses the Purity Movement, an evangelical movement that shamed a generation of young women, and how to break free.

If you grew up in the purity movement era of Christianity--where a lot of talk around sexuality was based on 'just say 'no' to sex before marriage'--were you burned by it? Encouraged by it? Our friend, Jason Soucinek, executive director and founder of ProjectSix19 talks us through the benefits and detriments of talking about sexuality with a focus on this type of purity, and helps us consider another way. We also dig into favorite group games (just don't talk about kickball kaythxsbye), get a bit crazy about being inclusive of single people, and have a giant take us to Goofball Island for reasons we still don't quite know. Highlights: "As a parent, you want to be Google to your children--especially when it comes to [sexuality]." --Jason Soucinek "I think if we're only looking at two parts [fall and redemption] and we are starting with the Fall, then our language is going to be around sin, and the language of, 'no, 'bad,' and 'not good.' We'll eventually get to 'image of God' or 'Jesus' or 'forgiveness,' but that's just not the story I see taking place. It starts with, 'It was very good.'" --Jason Soucinek For More: https://lauriekrieg.com/podcast/purity-movement-or-sexual-integrity/

Carrie Saum, like so many of us, is more than just any one thing, any one label. She’s an author, a recipe creator, a cultivator of community for her project, Our Stable Table. She’s also a mom, a wife, and a survivor of the Purity Movement that swept the nation decades ago, which unfortunately, is still going strong in many circles. Carrie takes us right to the heart of the matter, her identity as a fellow “poster child” in the church, leading the way in the Purity Culture amongst her friends and community. From the body image issues, to the tangled web of lust and responsibility and the rape culture prevalent in so many Christian circles, we dive right into the conversations we’ve so desperately craved for all these years. You can connect with Carrie at Our Stable Table and read her work about the Purity Culture on Ravishly.

Host Laura Zarrow speaks with Linda Kay Klein about Evangelical Christianity's purity movement, and its effect on a generation of American women. In the 1990s, a “purity industry” emerged out of the white evangelical Christian culture, and it carried a dangerous message: girls were potential sexual “stumbling blocks” for boys and men, and any expression of a girl’s sexuality could reflect the corruption of her character. This message traumatized many girls and trapped them in a cycle of shame. Linda Kay Klein was one of those girls, today she's the founder of Break Free Together, a program that works to help people release sexual shame and claim their whole selves. Linda is also the author of Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free.Originally aired with Host Laura Zarrow on September 26, 2018 on SiriusXM's Business Radio Powered by The Wharton School, Channel 132 See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Andy and Eric reflect on growing up in the sexual purity movement.

This week the boys talk about what is — ironically — the least pure gospel in modern Christianity. That’s right folks, we take dead aim at the Purity Movement. If you’re not familiar, It’s all a part of the purity movement, which was, according to the book Sexual Ethics: An Evangelical Perspective, the evangelical response to the sexual revolution and the AIDs epidemic. The Southern Baptist Convention, in 1992, even went so far as to create “True Love Waits,” which was an abstinence program that basically told kids to keep it in their pants until marriage. That’s right. If you ever suffered through “abstinence-only education,” then you can likely thank the Purity Movement. But “purity” doesn’t sound that bad, right? So where did the movement go wrong? The church did not equip parents to talk to about sex. It was inherently sexist. Life, ah, finds a way. It basically left young Christians with no knowledge about sex or their bodies. In other words, the movement filled teenagers with shame towards sex. Which is dangerous for many reasons, mostly that it creates an environment where failure is the only option. But even more than that, it instilled in teenagers an idea of masculinity that is just simply antiquated and super lame. It’s super DUPER gross. We take a break (thank GOD) to play a dumb game from Kevin. After that, we look at the Bible. Here’s what we read: Corinthians 7:2 Acts 15:20 Ephesians 5: 3 Hebrews 13: 4 Questions? Comments? If you have questions about anything we talked about in today’s episode, or if you’d like to comment on anything we said, or if you have suggestions for future episodes, then please connect with us on Twitter, Facebook, or both! twitter.com/WhiteJesusPod facebook.com/SaveMeWhiteJesus Thanks to John Cotton For the use of our theme song "Close" off a forthcoming EP. You can find and buy John's music here: https://nothankyoujohn.bandcamp.com/

In this episode, we gather to discuss the relationship between women and our bodies. Host Shannon Evans is joined by Lindsy Wallace, Kayla Craig, and special guest, author Colleen Mitchell. Colleen is the author of “When We Were Eve: Uncovering the Woman God Created You to Be.” Together we analyze the effects of both hypersexualization and excessive modesty and wrestle with questions of how to retain the holiness of our physicality in a world bent on making it a source of shame. We discuss how our view of the incarnation affects our view of bodies and how our view of the triune God shapes our view of self. In this episode, we: Discuss our culture’s standards of the ideal female body - and why it affects us so deeply; Share how hypersexualization is seeping into our marriages and relationships - and how we can combat it; Look at the other end of the spectrum - excessive modesty - and the effect it can have on our psyches; Encourage each other to embrace our bodies as “storytellers”; and Think about what it could look like for women to truly delight in their God-given bodies. Join us as we empower women to make peace with our bodies in a holistic way -- and to find holiness in our physicality. Recommended reading & resources: “When We Were Eve: Uncovering the Woman God Created You to Be” by Colleen Mitchell “The Body Keeps the Score” by Bessel van der Kolk Colleen’s “31 Days of Embodied Faith” blog series Pope John Paul II’s lecture series on Theology of the Body Links: @colleencmitch http://www.blessedarethefeet.com/31-days-of-embodied-faith/ http://www.upsidedownpodcast.com/ Join the Upside Down Tribe on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/upsidedowntribe/?fref=nfSupport the show (http://www.patreon.com/upsidedownpodcast)

In this groundbreaking episode, Rebecca Lemke interviews Justin Megna about a topic no one else has touched: the "Counter Purity Movement." The Counter Purity Movement is a phrase they have coined for the scorched-earth social landscape some trod following purity culture, which includes outright hedonism, abuse within recovery communities, and versions of Christianity manipulated to be more sexually permissive. Justin and Rebecca discuss purity culture, the Counter Purity Movement, and some of the ways in which these cultures are two sides of the same coin. They talk about their own - sometimes painful - journeys in finding their way to a healthy, holistic approach to life, love, and Christianity. They are in complete agreement that Jesus Christ should our all-in-all and any path that leads away from him, whether hyper-legalistic or licentious, should be rejected.  Justin Megna is the creator of thatcrazychristianromance.com, a blog dedicated to sharing biblical wisdom for romantic relationships. Justin teaches a discipleship-based approach to romantic relationships that defies both legalism and licentiousness in romance. He completed a BA in Pastoral Ministry at University of Valley Forge. Follow Justin on Twitter at @JustinMegna.

Show Notes In continuation with our last episode, Matt interviews two friends, Kristen and Mary, and they reflect and discuss growing up in and around the Purity Movement and True Love Waits in this edition of Things that Matter. This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Drew and Tyler chat with Rebecca Calhoun about her recent article, Moving Past the Purity Movement.

In this episode of drunk Ex-Pastors, we begin with a capitulation on Christian’s part toward the color-blind, and then move on to what a man’s chin and legs tell us about his sexual orientation. Jason nods his head and furrows his brow as Christian expresses his frustration over DXP’s Catholic listeners, after which we take a call from an active military listener explaining what exactly “lawful orders” are. Another caller seeks clarity on whether acting gay sends you to hell or whether just being that way is sufficient. We then share some preliminary thoughts on a documentary about the so-called “Purity Movement” (which is that thing of when earnest evangelicals have sex before marriage, but only after promising not to). The topic of open relationships arises, as does the thorny issue of Ahmed’s ticking time bomb. Oops, we mean clock. We turn our attention to the refugee crisis (noting the irony of which segment of society is embodying the “Hate Thy Neighbor” ethic), a discussion which dovetails into the issue of whether democracy can really beat theocracy in a fight. Jason is biebered by Eastern European Mexicans, while Christian’s bieber ends up focusing on the real reason his clothes don’t fit right. Also, it really is a small world, after all. Just ask Matt.

Today I have a double dose of blingsclusive interviews! Dawn Chandler and I will discuss her upcoming book, The Purity Movement and talks about her non-profit agency she's building that will assist minority families with G.E.D programing, housing, afterschool programs, family counseling and non traditional extra curricular activities ranging in ages 6-21. Denisha Hardeman and I will discuss her life as an Actress and Producer. We will also chat about her move from Houston to Hollywood!  Tune in live by calling 347-989-1645 or if you missed the show you can listen and download it later!  If you would like advertise, become a sponsor or be a guest on the show, send an email to blingradioshow@gmail.com