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Today, we check in a year after the first Unsupervised Learning x Latent Space Crossover special to discuss everything that has changed (there is a lot) in the world of AI. This episode was recorded just after AIE Europe, but before the Cursor-xAI deal.Unsupervised Learning is a podcast that interviews the sharpest minds in AI about what's real today, what will be real in the future and what it means for businesses and the world - helping builders, researchers and founders deconstruct and understand the biggest breakthroughs.Thanks to Jacob and the UL production team for hosting and editing this!Jacob Effron* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacobeffron/* X: https://x.com/jacobeffronFull Episode on Their YouTubeWe discuss:* swyx's view from the center of the AI engineering zeitgeist: OpenClaw, harness engineering, context engineering, evals, observability, GPUs, multimodality, and why conference tracks now reveal what matters most in AI* Whether AI infrastructure has finally stabilized: why “skills” may be the minimal viable packaging format for agents, why infra companies have had to reinvent themselves every year, and why application companies have had an easier time surviving model volatility* The vertical vs. horizontal AI startup debate: why application companies can act as the outsourced AI team for enterprises, why some horizontal companies still matter, and why sandboxes may be the clearest reinvention of classic cloud infrastructure for the AI era* The “agent lab” playbook: starting with frontier models, specializing for your domain, then training your own models once you have enough data, workload, and user behavior to justify the cost and latency savings* Why domain-specific model training is real, not just marketing: how companies like Cursor and Cognition can get users to choose their in-house models, and why search, domain specialization, and distillation are becoming more important* Open models, custom chips, and alternative inference infrastructure: why swyx has turned more bullish on open source, why non-NVIDIA hardware is suddenly getting real attention, and why every 10x speedup can unlock new product experiences* What it means to sell to agents instead of humans: why agent experience may mostly just be good developer experience by another name, why APIs and docs matter more than ever, and how pretraining-data incumbents are compounding advantages in an agent-first world* Why memory and personalization may become the next big wedge: today's models mostly reward frequency of mentions, but in the future, swyx expects product choice to be shaped much more by personalized memory systems* The state of the AI coding wars: why coding has become one of the largest and fastest-growing categories in AI, how Anthropic, OpenAI, Cursor, and Cognition have all ridden the wave, and why the category may still have more room to run* Capability exploration vs. efficiency: why the industry is still in a token-maxing, experiment-heavy phase where people are rewarded for spending more rather than less* Claude Code vs. Codex and the strange stickiness of coding products: why first magical product experiences may matter more than expected, and why the bigger mystery may be why only a few names have emerged as real winners so far* What the end state of the coding market might look like: two major players, a longer tail of niche products, and possible disruption if Microsoft, Mistral, xAI, or the Chinese labs push harder into coding* Where application companies still have room against the labs: why frontier labs are trying to expand into verticals like finance and healthcare, but still leave space for focused companies that own the workflow and the last mile* Why coding may be a preview of every other AI market: the first category to truly go parabolic, the clearest example of foundation model companies colliding with application companies, and a template for how future vertical AI markets may develop* Why AI valuations now feel unbounded: from billion-dollar ARR products built in a year to trillion-dollar market caps, swyx and Jacob unpack how the AI market has broken traditional startup intuitions about scale and durability* Consumer AI vs. coding AI: why ChatGPT's consumer category may have plateaued on frequency and product design, while coding continues to feel like a daily-use category with real momentum* The next product frontier beyond coding: consumer agents, computer use, and “coding agents breaking containment,” with swyx's thesis that 2025 was the year of coding agents and 2026 may be the year they begin to do everything else* Whether foundation models are really killing startup categories: why swyx is less worried for early founders, more worried for mid-size startups and traditional SaaS, and why building something ambitious may now be the best job interview for a frontier lab* AI vs. SaaS and the internal culture war around adoption: the tension between AI-native employees who want to rip out expensive software and skeptics who think quick AI-built replacements create fragile systems* Why traditional SaaS may be under real pressure: swyx's own experience spending six figures on event and sponsor management software, the temptation to rebuild it cheaply with AI, and the broader question of whether teams will trust custom AI-native replacements* Biosafety, security, and frontier model access: why swyx raised biosafety at a dinner with Anthropic's Mike Krieger, why Krieger argued security is the bigger issue, and what restricted model releases reveal about Anthropic vs. OpenAI* The era of giant models: why 10T+ parameter systems may only be a temporary rationing phase before bigger clusters arrive, why labs may increasingly keep their most powerful models private for distillation, and why scale alone no longer feels like a complete answer* Memory as the slowest scaling factor in AI: why context windows have improved far more slowly than people hoped, why million-token context still has not changed most real workflows, and why memory may be the key bottleneck for the next generation of systems* What swyx changed his mind on in the past year: becoming more bullish on open models, more convinced that the top tier of agent startups behaves very differently from the median AI company, and more optimistic about fine-tuning and specialized model adaptation* “Dark factories” and zero-human-review coding: the next frontier after zero human-written code, where models not only write the code but ship it without human review, forcing companies to rethink testing and verification from first principles* Why RL and post-training may matter more than people assumed: even if the resulting models get thrown out every few months, the data, workflows, and domain-specific improvements persist* Synthetic rubrics, Doctor GRPO, and multi-turn RL: why reinforcement learning is becoming much more domain-specific and multi-step than many people realize, opening the door to much deeper customization* The next frontier after coding: memory, personalization, and world models, including why swyx thinks world models matter not just for robotics or gaming, but for giving AI something closer to lived understanding* Fei-Fei Li, spatial intelligence, and the Good Will Hunting analogy: the idea that today's LLMs may know everything by reading it all, but still lack the lived experience that turns knowledge into a deeper kind of intelligenceTimestamps* 00:00:00 Intro preview: AI coding wars, startup pressure, and market structure* 00:00:28 Welcome to the Latent Space × Unsupervised Learning crossover* 00:01:17 What AI builders are focused on now: OpenClaw, harnesses, and infra* 00:04:33 Why AI infra is harder than apps, and where startups can still win* 00:06:39 Should companies train their own models?* 00:09:28 Open models, custom chips, and the new inference race* 00:11:25 Designing products for agents, not just humans* 00:16:49 The state of the AI coding wars in 2026* 00:19:27 Capability exploration, token-maxing, and why coding is going parabolic* 00:21:41 What the end state of the coding market could look like* 00:23:50 Where app companies still have room against the labs* 00:27:02 Why AI valuations and market swings feel unprecedented* 00:28:56 Consumer AI vs. coding AI, and why sticky products still matter* 00:32:28 What the next breakthrough product experience might be* 00:32:53 2026 thesis: coding agents break containment and eat the world* 00:35:27 Are foundation models wiping out startup categories?* 00:37:33 AI vs. SaaS, vibe coding, and internal team tensions* 00:40:01 Biosafety, security, and the politics of restricted model releases* 00:42:19 Giant models, compute constraints, and the limits of scale* 00:44:30 Memory as the real bottleneck in AI* 00:44:57 Why swyx changed his mind on open models* 00:47:44 Dark factories and the future of zero-human-review coding* 00:49:36 Why post-training and RL may matter more than people think* 00:51:50 Memory, world models, and the next frontier of intelligence* 00:53:54 The Good Will Hunting analogy for LLMs* 00:54:21 OutroTranscript[00:00:00] swyx: Isn't that crazy? That number is just mind boggling.[00:00:03] Jacob Effron: What is the state of the AI coding wars today?[00:00:05] swyx: We're in a phase of sort of like capability exploration. The general thesis that I have been pursuing now is that the same way that 2025 was a year coding agents 2026 is coding agents breaking containments to do everything else.[00:00:16] Jacob Effron: Do you worry about the foundation models just getting into a bunch of these startup categories?[00:00:21] swyx: Mid-size startups. Yes.[00:00:23] Jacob Effron: What do you think the end state of this market is[00:00:25] swyx: for the market structure to, to significantly change? There would be[00:00:28] Jacob Effron: today on unsupervised learning. We had a, a fun episode and what's really become an annual tradition, a crossover episode with our friends at Latent space.Swix and I sat down and we talked about everything happening in the AI ecosystem today. What we thought of the various changes at the model layer, what's happening in the infra world, the coding wars, and a bunch of other things. It's a ton of fun to do this with someone I really respect and another great podcaster in the game.Without further ado, here's our episode. Well switch. This is, uh, super fun to be back with another unsupervised learning, uh, latent space crossover episode.[00:01:02] swyx: Yeah,[00:01:02] Jacob Effron: I feel like a lot of places we could start, but you know, one thing I always find fascinating, uh, about the way you spend your time is you obviously are like at the epicenter of this engineering movement and community, and you run these events and conferences and put on these.Awesome talks and, and I think just have a great pulse on the zeitgeist of what's going on.[00:01:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:01:17] Jacob Effron: Maybe to, to start just what are the biggest topics people are thinking about right now?[00:01:21] swyx: Yeah, so I just came back from London, uh, where we did a IE Europe and we're doing roughly one per quarter now, which Yeah, you've[00:01:27] Jacob Effron: really up[00:01:27] swyx: the, hopefully[00:01:28] Jacob Effron: up the, up the pace.[00:01:29] swyx: It's trying. We're trying to match AI speed, youknow?[00:01:30] Jacob Effron: Yeah, exactly. The tops would be completely different, I imagine. Uh,[00:01:33] swyx: yeah. You know, I definitely curate the tracks, like you can see what I think. When you see the track list and the, the speakers that I invite, obviously Open Claw is like the story of the last four or five months, and then be, be just below that.I would consider harness engineering, context engineering to be two related topics in agents and rag. And then there's a long tail of Evergreen stuff like evals, observability, GPUs, uh, and uh, LM infra and just general, just in general. We also have other updates on like multimodality and, uh, generative media, let's call it.Um, but I definitely, the, the first three that I mentioned are top of mind people. Yeah.[00:02:13] Jacob Effron: I think harness is particular like, so interesting. Um, you know, there was this tweet from Harrison Chase, the, the lane chain, CEO, that, that caught my eye recently where he said, you know, it finally feels like we have stability, uh, around the infrastructure for, uh, you know, around ai.And I think what. He basically was implying his like, look over the past two, three years as a company at the epicenter of AI infrastructure, it was a bit like playing whack-a-mole, right? You were constantly moving around with, however, the building patterns were evolving[00:02:36] swyx: for Harrison for sure. Right? Like he's basically had to reinvent the company every year since he started Lang Chain.Right? It was Lang chain, Ang graph and LP agents and like, uh, I think he's like one of the most nimble, adept sharp people about this. Yeah. Yeah.[00:02:49] Jacob Effron: Saying now, now is finally the time stability[00:02:51] swyx: this. Yeah.[00:02:52] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Um, do you buy that or what have you kind of make of that take?[00:02:56] swyx: I think that. It, it's very expensive to say this Time is different sometimes, but when you're just writing code, like it's actually okay to just like try to make a call and I think it may not even matter if this call is right or not.Like I just don't even care that much because you can be right on a thesis, but if you don't, you don't figure out how to monetize the thesis, then who cares if you said something first that said, um, it does feel like, for example. Uh, we went through a lot of different ways of passion packaging integrations up with, uh, with agents.And it feels like we've landed at skills, which is like the minimal viable format. Yeah. Which is just a markdown file, uh, with some scripts attached to it, and I don't see how it can be more simple than that. And so there is some justification for. The stability around harnesses. I feel like there may be more adaptation with regards to maybe like the real time elements or subagents or memory or any of those like agent disciplines, let's call it in, in agent engineering.Uh, but if, if the thesis is that, okay, you just want agents are LMS with tools in the loop with a file system, what they can do. Retrieval with, with skills and all these like standard tooling that now seems to be relatively consensus then probably. That makes sense. Um, I just think like there's no point trying to stake your reputation on this thesis that we're there because if it changes again, just change with it.It's fine.[00:04:33] Jacob Effron: Yeah. It's always, you know, I've always been struck by how that is. Much more challenging for infrastructure companies and application companies. Like obviously I think, yeah. You know, on the application side you've seen, you know, Brett Taylor from Sierra Max, from Lara. Like, they're like, look, we build, you know, what's ahead of the models and we're willing to throw everything out every three months, you know, as the models get better and better.Exactly. Yeah. But the thing you at least have there is you have. Uh, you have an end customer, right? That's like decently sticky. Um, you know, they will mostly stick, you know, they'll, they'll give you a shot at least of, of building these things. What I've always found more challenging, uh, at, at the kind of like, you know, reinvent yourself every three months of the infrastructure layer, it's like, you know, developers are definitely a, a pickier audience maybe than an accounting firm or, uh, you know, a bank.Yeah. And so it's definitely a, a, a more challenging position to be in to, to have to constantly reinvent yourself.[00:05:17] swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and like when they turn, it's like. Very complete. Like, they'll leave to like the, the hot new thing, uh, because there's like no defensibility, I guess. Like e even, even if you are a database, like, uh, people can migrate workloads off databases.Like it's, it's a, it's a known thing. Uh, so I think like basically what we're talking about is the vertical versus horizontal, uh, debate in, in AI startups. And uh, the way I think about it also is just that like when you are. Um, Lara, when you are a bridge, like you are the outsource AI team, right? You, you are, your job is to apply whatever state ofthe art AI methods.[00:05:55] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Like this translation layer between model capabilities and your[00:05:57] swyx: own customers. Yeah. To, to the end customers and like, well, if they didn't have you, they would've to hire in house and they're not gonna hire in house so they have you. And like, I think that's like a reasonable, like very robust to any whatever trends and, and discoveries that people make in, in the engineering layer.I do think like there is, um. It like sort of useful horizontal companies being built, but they're all. Very much like, sort of like the reinventions of classic cloud in the AI era and the, the primary one being sandboxes. Yeah. Um, which like, it's another form of compute guys, like, let's not get too excited about it.But I mean, like the, the workloads are enormous.[00:06:38] Jacob Effron: Right.[00:06:38] swyx: Yeah.[00:06:39] Jacob Effron: It's interesting, and I feel like as, as part of this, you know, the questions that folks are asking around infrastructure, there's a lot around, you know, the extent to which companies should have their own AI teams and what they should be doing in-house.And, you know, uh, I think there's questions around should people be training their own models? Should people be doing, you know, rl, uh, in-house based on the data they have? I feel like, you know, one has to evolve their takes on this every, every three months with paces. But where, where are you at on this today?[00:07:00] swyx: I think, well, I mean actually all models have gone up. Um, and obviously I'm involved in cognition and also cursors doing, doing, uh, a lot of own model training. And I think that that is some part of the, what I've been calling the agent lab playbook, where you start off with the state of the art models from, uh, from the big labs and you, uh, specialize for your domain.But once you have enough workload and enough high quality data from your users, then you can obviously train your own models and like save a lot on cost and latency and all that, all that good stuff. Um, you also get like a marketing bonus of like calling it some fancy name and putting out some research[00:07:38] Jacob Effron: from my seat.I can't tell how much of it is like actual, you know, value that's provided to the end user. And how much of it is that marketing bonus? Right. It seems some combination of the[00:07:45] swyx: I think it's both.[00:07:46] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:07:46] swyx: Um, no, no. There, there actually is real value. Um, and you, you know that for a number of reasons. Like one, even when it's not subsidized, people do choose it as like one of the top four or five.This is both composer two and, uh, suite 1.6 I one of the top five models. Like in a, in a fair market? In a free market, yeah. In a, in a, in a model switch. Or people do choose it and like, it's not subsidized. Like, so that's as good as it gets. Uh, but beyond that, like domain specific models, for example. For search with, with both, which both companies have absolutely makes, makes a ton of sense.Everyone says like, yeah, we should always, always do this. And honestly like, I think the infrastructure for that is becoming easier with, um, like thinking machines tinker thing as well as primary like, uh, lab stuff. Yeah, I mean like, this is one of those like reversal of the, the bitter lesson where you first bootstrap on the large models and the general purpose models to get big.And as you get very well-defined workloads that are just high quantity but not high variance, um, then you just distill down to a smaller model and run that on your own. Right. Which like totally makes sense.[00:08:50] Jacob Effron: What I'm less clear on is the kind of DIY RL use case, which I think is really mostly around, you know, improved, uh, quality for, for different things.Obviously there's probably like more efficient ways to, you know, get a smaller model that's that's faster and cheaper. And it'll be interesting to see whether. You know, obviously you had, you know, uh, two, three years ago this whole case of companies that were, you know, pre-training and claiming better outcomes in, in their domains than getting kind of cooked as each model iteration improved.You know, I wonder whether that's a, a similar story plays out in the, uh, in, in the, our all space. Yeah, for the focus on, on on pure outcomes and quality, not the cost side, which clearly your own models for cost at scale makes a ton of sense.[00:09:28] swyx: I think there are this, there are two sides of the same coin.Like you basically always want to hold, uh, quality constant or trade off a little bit of quality for a drastic decreasing cost. And that's true for everyone. Uh, one element I wanted to bring out, which is very much in favor of open models, is custom chips. So this would be cereus, but also talu. And then there's a huge range of stuff in between.This has been a huge story this past year on just like everything non Nvidia is getting bid up, including like freaking MatX is working for, which is very, which is very rewarding for me, but I think one of those things where like, oh, like the suddenly, because the number of alternative. Hard, uh, hardware is increasing and the inference that you can get is insanely high.Like, um, we're talking thousands of tokens per second instead of less than a hundred. So the trade off for qua quality doesn't hold as much anymore because the speed is so high.[00:10:24] Jacob Effron: Have you seen a lot of companies go all in on the alternative chip?[00:10:26] swyx: So cognition has Yeah. On Cerebras, uh, and, and so has OpenAIUm, uh, and so no, I don't think so beyond that, uh, and that, do you think that's like a, that's mostly, that's foreshadowing of, that's, yeah. I used to be kind of a skeptic in terms of like, okay, so what if I get my inference at a hundred to a hundred tokens per second sped up to 200 tokens per second. It's only two X faster.It's not that big a deal. Um, but when you, uh, I think every 10 x does unlock a different usage pattern. Um, and you, we have proof in Talas and, and some of the others. That you can actually, um, drastically imp improve inference speed and what happens from there? I don't even really know, like it's, it's so hard to predict when entire applications just appear at once.Yeah. Uh, and it also isn't that expensive, right? So like, um, this is one of those things where like, I, I think the, the investment cycle is gonna be multi-year. Um, and I. Would caution people to not dismiss it too, too quickly.[00:11:25] Jacob Effron: Yeah. I mean, one other like infra question I was curious to get your thoughts on is obviously it seems increasingly a lot of the cutting edge infra companies are building for agents as the buyers of their product or users of their product, right?[00:11:35] swyx: Ooh,[00:11:36] Jacob Effron: and[00:11:37] swyx: another huge theme. Yeah. Yeah.[00:11:38] Jacob Effron: And I'm trying to figure out like what. What, what do you have to do differently about selling into agents? Um, are they just the ultimate rational developers? Uh, or is there, you know,[00:11:46] swyx: no, absolutely not. Um, I think they are easily prompt, injected and, uh, very tuned towards like, basically com compounding existing winners.[00:11:57] Jacob Effron: Yeah,[00:11:57] swyx: so like if, like, congrats if you won the lottery for getting into the training data right before 2023, because now you're like installed in there for the foreseeable future. But yeah. Uh, you know, one stat that Versal, uh, CTO Malta dropped at my conference was that there are now, uh, 60% of traffic to Elle's, um, like app arch, like admin app architecture for like configuring versal applications, uh, is bought.It's not, it's not human. Uh, so like your primary customer is agents now. Um, and it's mostly co like mostly coding agents, mostly people using CLI on CP or whatever. But yeah, I mean, I think. More. I, I think step one, if it doesn't exist as an API that agents can use, it doesn't exist. Right, right. Which I think is like, uh, it's a good hygiene thing anyway, to, to make everything API available, but not as like an extra, um.Push on like products, people to not only work on the ui, um, you should probably work on the on SCLI stuff. Beyond that, I think honestly there is like, so I, I come from the sensibility of, I think everything that you are trying to do for agents experience now, which is the term that Matt Bowman and Nullify is trying to coin, is the same thing that you should have been doing for developer experience.That you should have had good docs, you should have had a consistent API, uh, that is. Mostly stateless. Um, you should have, I guess, discoverable or progressive disclosure or like search or like whatever. And so now that people have energy in like finding these customers to do that, that's great. Um, do I believe in.Extending beyond that into something like a EO, um, for gaming The chatbots? Not necessarily, but obviously there's gonna be huge advantages when people who figure out the short term wins. Yeah. And short term wins can compound.[00:13:43] Jacob Effron: Do you think these compounding advantages to like the, the pre-training data cutoff companies, like, you know, obviously over some period of time, I imagine that doesn't persist.And so as you think about like. I dunno, three, four years from now what the, you know, selection criteria end up being. Do you think it still mirrors exactly what you were saying before? Like it's exactly what you should have been doing all along to sell a good product to developers?[00:14:01] swyx: It could be, except that I think in three, four years we'll probably have much better memory and personalization.So then general a EO or GEO doesn't really matter as much. So I think whatever memory or personalization system we end up with will probably d determine what you end up choosing much more. Than, than what is currently the case, which is just frequency of mentions, let's call it. Yeah,[00:14:26] Jacob Effron: yeah.[00:14:26] swyx: Uh, so you just spa quantity and I think that's, I mean, that's something I'm looking forward to.I do think, like, like, you know, I, I think that the fundamental exercise to work through for yourself is if you start a new, um, sort of. Uh, disruptor company. Now there's a, there's a big incumbent that everyone knows, like, like superb base. Super base is like, kind of like the Postgres, like database, uh, incumbent.If you wanna start like new superb base, how would you compete with them? And I don't necessarily have the answer, but I, I, I do think like people, like resend like relatively new. I think they would start like 20, 23 and still there was, there was a recent survey where like, people. Checked what Claude recommends by default.If you just don't prompt it with anything, just say, gimme an email provider and says, resent as in like 70, 70% of each cases. Like the fact that you can get in there with like such a relatively short existence, I think is, is encouraging.[00:15:14] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:15:14] swyx: I do think like. Um, you do want to do whatever it is to, to like to, to get in that Very short mentions this because, um, it's not gonna be 20 of them, it's gonna be like three.[00:15:26] Jacob Effron: No, definitely. It feels like, uh, you know, probably more, more consolidation than ever. Uh, or, or kind of like, you know, uh, a winner take most market than maybe the, the, the physics of go-to market in the past. Yeah. Might have, uh, enabled.[00:15:38] swyx: The other thing also is like, semantic association is gonna be very important, uh, in the sense that like, you want to do like the combo articles where you're like, use my thing with for sale, with blah, blah.And like that all gets picked up in a, in a corpus. And so that's. Probably one thing that you, you wanna do? Well, I don't know what else. Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's one of those things where like, I think I feel, I feel I'm behind, uh, I don't know how you feel about this, but like,[00:16:04] Jacob Effron: I think AI is just everyone constantly feeling like they're behind some, uh,[00:16:08] swyx: yeah.With,[00:16:09] Jacob Effron: I wanna meet the person that doesn't feel behind,[00:16:11] swyx: but like with, with ax, right? Like, so, so like, my, my stance was that exactly what I said before, like everything that you, that you should do for agents is something that you should have done for humans anyway. Yeah. And so. To the extent that you're just getting it more energy to, to do things for agents, great.But like, uh, it's hard to articulate what new thing apart from just like more spam, um, that you should be doing. Anyway, that would be my take right now. Um, I I, I do think like there, there will be more turns at this. I think the personalization turn that is coming, um, will be big. And I don't know what that looks like because like basically we're kind of, we feel kind of tapped out on the memory side of things.[00:16:49] Jacob Effron: Yeah. I, I guess since we last chatted, you know, you, you took this role over at cognition, um, and you've obviously have a, have a front row seat to the AI coding space today. You know, I feel like coding in many ways. You know, people view it as this, like, I mean, besides being like the, the mother of all markets and this massive opportunity, I think it's kinda a preview of like, what's to come for many other spaces.Both. Yeah. You know, I feel like agents are most advanced in coding. I also feel like the, you know, competition between foundation models and application companies, you know, and, uh, mirrors what we may see in other spaces. And so maybe for our listeners, can you just lay out like what is the state of the AI coding wars today?[00:17:25] swyx: Um, it is massive, right? Like, uh, and I don't think necessarily, last time we talked about this, we appreciated the size of what[00:17:32] Jacob Effron: No, I wish we did.[00:17:33] swyx: I state of AI coding wars today, um, both opening eye philanthropic have made it their p serials to competing coding. Um, and. Tropic is like 2.5 billion in a RR just from Cloud Code.The way they recognize a RR is. Opt for debate, uh, open ai. I don't think the, a public number is known, but let's call it 2 billion as well. And then cursor is like, rumored to be 2 billion, you know? And, and those, those are like the public numbers that are known? Yeah. Um, so like huge markets that have just been created in the past one year.Like, like anthropic, just like Claude Code just recently celebrated their one year anniversary, which is, yeah, pretty nice. Um, so, and then I think, like the other thing that I see is there's, there's some other people who are like, oh, here's like the, the sort of relative penetration of, uh, Claude use cases, right?Like, and it's like coding 50% and then legal, whatever. Health, uh, it's like the, the remaining ones. And there was a very popular tweet that was like, okay, I'll look at the, the empty space and all these other use cases. If you are a new founder today, you should be betting on the other stuff because on, on a sort of catch up Yeah.Theory and my. Consider my, my pushback is the same pushback that, uh, I had on app over Google, which is like, well, well why is this time different? Like, why, if it went from let's say 10 to 50% in the past year, why can't I keep going? Uh, and like getting that wrong is actually a very painful one because you could have just did, did the momentum bet.Instead of the mean reversion bed. So I, I, I think that that is the, the state of things now that people are very, very much into psychosis. Um, they're are getting rewarded for spending more rather than spending less. And I think we're not in that phase of efficiency. We're in a phase of sort of like capability exploration.So I think people who are more crazy, who are more. Uh, creative, um, get rewarded comparatively. Yeah.[00:19:27] Jacob Effron: Well, it's interesting. I mean, it feels like behind these like token maxing, leaderboards and whatnot is this, it's like the first phase of this transition from a workforce perspective is you just gotta show your employer like, Hey, I, I use these tools.[00:19:37] swyx: Here's my nu number of tokens I cost, and that's it. They don't care about the quality. Right. It is, uh, maybe distasteful to someone who cares about the craft and, and all that. Um, but directionally everyone just wants you to go up regardless. And so, um, there it is not very discerning. It's, and it's probably very sloppy, but I think it's net fine because we're still probably underusing ai just in generally.Yeah. Um, and so I think that's like very interesting. Like we had on the podcast, uh, Ryan La Poplar from OBI, who spends a billion tokens a day. Yeah. Um, and that's for those county home, it's like something like 10,000 worth, $10,000 worth a day of API tokens. If they, they did market rates, um, and like most of us can't afford that.Yeah. But like. And, and, and probably a lot of what he does is slop.[00:20:25] Jacob Effron: Right.[00:20:25] swyx: But like, he's going to dis, he's like, if there were a new capability, he would discover it first before you because he was, he was trying and you were not trying. Right. And like, you only do things that work like, well, good for you.But like the, the people who are going to discover the next hot thing are living at the edge.[00:20:42] Jacob Effron: Right and increase in living at the edge of just having the compute budget to like run these experiments. I mean, kind of similar to what living at the edge on the research side has always been. You know, it was constrained in many ways by the amount of compute you had to run these experiments.It feels similarly on the, almost on the builder or like actualizing these tools now.[00:20:56] swyx: Yeah. The other thing that's, I mean, very obvious is philanthropic is kind of like the high price premium player. Um, that where, you know. Restricting limits or restricting model releases even is like the name of the game.Whereas Codex is like, come on in guys, use our SDK, use our login and we don't care. We're gonna reset limits. Whatever you do want to try to exploit the subsidies where you can get it. And definitely Codex is super subsidized right now. Gemini also very subsidized. Um, and. Comparatively, like, I think you should make, Hey, I guess while, while that's going on, it's not that bad to be a capabilities explorer on just the $200 a month plan from Cloud Code or from OpenAI.Um, and, uh, I I, I, my sense is that people aren't even there yet.[00:21:41] Jacob Effron: How do you think this, like, market ultimately plays? I mean, it's obviously such a big market that, you know, any slice of that market is interesting for, for anyone going after it. But I think what, what makes people so interesting in the coding market particularly is it feels like it's kind of this.Foreshadowing of what will happen in other, you know, any other kind of application market that the foundation models eventually turn to and are all their models against and gather data around. And so how do you think, you know, like does there end up being room for lots of different kinds of players or like, what do you think the end state of this market is and is that, do you think that's applicable to other markets?[00:22:10] swyx: I feel like there will be, I mean. Status quo is probably the most likely outcome, which is there are two big players and there's a small range of longer tail people that, um, fit other use cases that the, the two big players don't. That feels right to me. I think that, um, for it to, for the market structure to, to significantly change there would be, there needs to be significant change in like the economics or like the, the brand building or like the, the, the, the value propositions of the, of the companies involved and I.Haven't seen any in the last six months that, that have really changed the stories materially. So I feel like they would just keep going until something, something else happens. Something else happens, meaning like Microsoft wakes up and like goes like. Guys, we have GitHub, we have, uh, you know, we, we, we'll, we'll do something much bigger here than other, other than just copilot.Um, and, uh, that would be a big change. Um, MSL has put out a model now, and I was in a breakfast with, uh, Alex Wang, where they were like, yeah, like, we, we really, really want to go after the coding use case. We haven't done anything yet, but like, don't underestimate them. Right. Um, and, and similarly for the Chinese labs.Um, I think they're trying to go after it. Like ZAI is doing stuff. GLM uh, ZI and GLM is same thing. Um, uh, and, and so it's, so like everyone's trying to get a piece of that pie. I, I feel like the, the status quo has been pretty stable for the past, like almost a year I'll say.[00:23:39] Jacob Effron: Yeah. And is the room for the, not like, you know, for, for the application companies more on like the enterprise side or like where do the, where do the, like what surface area do the model companies leave for application companies?[00:23:50] swyx: Yeah, that's a good one. Um. It's very much evolving. Um, it, I, I, I will say because opening I did not have this, the, this level of attention on coding. Yeah. Uh, a year ago. We just don't have that much history. Right. Um, and it seems like, for example, so the big push at Open I now is the Super app. Um, is that a consumer thing?Is that like a products like. Portfolio rationalization thing, how much is that gonna take away attention from coding at the time when they actually do want to put more coding? I think it's, it's very unclear. So I do think like there's, there's all these, like in both big labs, there's. Uh, sorry. Both of the, and, and drop and, and deep minus and XAI are are separate cases.Um, they are trying to see the other time expansion areas. So cloud code for finance. Yeah. Um, uh, cloud cowork, all those, all those things. Whereas I think cursor and cognition are like comparatively just focused on coding and so I, I do think they leave space and I do think for the other verticals that also means the same thing.Right. That, uh, that they're not gonna be that. Um, intensely focused on, on, on that domain. Except for, I, I think I would mark out finance and healthcare as like the next ones, um, that they're clearly going after. Uh, I, I would say comparatively, healthcare seems more thorny. There, there, there've been some announcements about it, but like, I would respect the, the finance work a lot more just because like the, the path to money is a lot clearer.[00:25:12] Jacob Effron: Yeah, no, I mean, obviously like, I, I think, you know, maybe similar to, to the space that's being left in these other domains, you know, there's obviously. Uh, a lot that's required to actually implement these tools in enterprises, uh, versus, you know, maybe just giving them, uh, giving model access to, to folks outta the box.[00:25:27] swyx: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the, the agent lab thing is like, we'll do the last mile for you. Whereas I think the model labs tend to just trust the model and, and be minimalist about it. Both of them work.[00:25:38] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:25:38] swyx: I, I don't, I don't necessarily think one, uh, beats the other, uh, for every, for every use case. Um, all I, all I do know is that it does seem like.Uh, the large enterprises do want a dedicated partner that isn't just the model labs, which is kind of interesting.[00:25:55] Jacob Effron: We, we've been in this phase of, of pure capability exploration. And so I think nothing has been, you know, better for the large labs, right? I mean, they're always gonna be, uh, uh, the frontier of, of capability exploration.And so I think have a very good relationship with a lot of these enterprises. But ultimately over time, like. The, uh, the incentive structure of these labs is always gonna be maximal, you know, token consumption for, uh, for the end customers they work with. And there's just, I think, so few companies that have actually gotten to massive scale.Maybe coding again is the most interesting. So it's the first space that really is just completely gone, you know? Yeah. You must love it every day. Like absolutely insane. And. I think it[00:26:32] swyx: gets even. Okay. I mean, like, I think we, we say good things about crystal cognition, but the sheer liftoff of like both end UPIC and open ai.‘cause they, they, they have independent valuations. I mean, let's throw an XEI in there because it's now I ping at 1.2 trillion. That number is just mind boggling. Like I, I feel like in normal investing or normal startups, there's kind of like a ceiling market cap or valuation. Totally. That, that like you, you reach and you go like, all right, let's, it's gonna be chiller from now on.And these guys are not slow down. No.[00:27:02] Jacob Effron: Well, I also think the dynamic is fascinating about some of these later stage companies is, is, you know, in the past, I feel like in, in venture world, if you got to a certain level of scale, the question around you was really more a valuation question. And this is like why there was different phase, like, you know, types of venture people did and like the late stage growth people were just incredible at like, you know, a little bit of what's the ultimate market opportunity of this company, but also what's the right way to, to value it.Like we know it's, it's in some bands of an outcome that is like. Sure there's some variance to it, but it's like relatively understood what that bands is and then maybe you get over time surprised to the upside. Whereas any kind of like later, even the labs themselves, any later stage company, the bands of which that company might be worth right now, even in a year or two years are so massive because of how fast the ecosystem changes that it's like.Even for later stage companies, every three months could be an existential level event to the upside to the downside. Yeah. Um, and I think that, like, you are obviously seeing it in the, in the positive with code, which, you know, if you think about a company like philanthropic, you know, that. For a while, it was like unclear if they were going to have access to enough capital, um, to really stay in the, in the race, right?And then coding hit at the exact right time. They had the perfect model for it. They executed brilliantly. Um, and you know, now are, are, you know, uh, you know, one of the most valuable companies in the world.[00:28:13] swyx: Uh, at the same time, I, I don't find, I, I have zero sympathy for opening eye because they're crushing it and they're all rich.You know, this is like a high class champagne problem to have to, uh, to be number two at coding or whatever. Like, who cares? Like, you're, you're doing great.[00:28:27] Jacob Effron: Yeah. It's funny though. I can't even, I mean, you would be closer to this, uh, you know, even that you're in the AI coding space, but it's like a lot of people I talk to think Codex is just as good, if not better than Claude Code.Right. I think one thing that I've been really surprised by, and maybe, maybe Cloud Code is a better product in some ways, I'm curious your thoughts is just in consumer AI with chat GBT. You saw this big first mover advantage, right? Where admittedly today, like, I don't know, Claude Gemini. Great products.Not sure, not abundantly clear chat GBTs any better, but like. People stick with chat, GBT, it's the first thing to introduce them.[00:28:56] swyx: They stay, but they're not growing anymore. I don't know if you've seen[00:28:59] Jacob Effron: Right. But that to me is more of like a, a, a product problem than it is. They're not like, it's not like they've like lost share to someone else.My understanding is the overall problem with consumer AI today is much more of a how do you take this tool and, you know, for, for folks like us, like knowledge workers, it's like this incredible magic tool, but it's not necessarily a daily active use tool for a lot of people around the world today. And what are the like products?It's, it's kind of a category wide problem. Like in coding, for example, like. The entire space has gone parabolic. There may be some relative growth in, uh, in other consumer AI players, but it's not like consumer AI as a category is like going parabolic and they're not capturing most of that thing. I think it's actually the larger problem is much more, hey, the category has kind of hit a bit of a plateau of people haven't figured out how to bring, you know, tons more users on board.Yeah, yeah. Or increase the frequency of those users. And so it seems more of a category wide problem than it is, you know, a massive market share of change. I was gonna draw the comparison to, to the coding space where Claude Co is the first product, obviously, to introduce people to this magical experience.You know, by all accounts, codex is, is pretty damn close to as good, if not better. Um, but like still that first product, you, you would've thought that would not be a super sticky, uh, you know, product surface area. And it actually has, it turns out, I, it feels like the first lab to introduce you and experience really does, uh, keep a lot of, uh, a lot of the focus.[00:30:12] swyx: I, I think. M maybe it's like still, still early days. You know, Chad, BT is like three plus years old and Yeah. Cloud code is only one. Just turned a year. Yeah. So give it time, you know? Yeah. Like, yeah. I mean, definitely sometimes a lot of people have switched from to Codex. Maybe that will keep going. I, it's like really hard to tell.Uh, yeah. I, I, I do, I do think that. Because we are in this like, high volatility, high temperature phase. Um, the loyalty and stickiness to first movers and category creators, I don't think is as high as it might be in some other, uh, areas in our careers that we've looked at.[00:30:47] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Though, I mean, I've been surprised by the cloud code thing.I, I would've thought that, like, in many ways I always worried about the[00:30:52] swyx: enterprise. You think you would've been gone by now?[00:30:53] Jacob Effron: Not gone. But I would've, I I always worried that the, that the consumer business of these companies would be quite sticky. And then the enterprise API business. Uh, was actually like, you know, in some ways like your least loyal buyers, like they would, they would move to,[00:31:05] swyx: right, right.But, but they worked out that it wasn't the enterprise API it was enterprise product.[00:31:09] Jacob Effron: Totally. And maybe that was the, that was the secret that like, but the amount of lock-in or just default behavior that has happened in that space, uh, is, is more than I might've imagined with two products that by all accounts are pretty damn similar.Yeah.[00:31:22] swyx: No fight there. Uh, I will say I do think that Codex is still in like a catch up. Like in terms of personal experience. Um, the only thing I like out of, out of Codex is the, is like Spark and like yeah. Uh, the, I, I feel like the skills integration is a little bit better. I feel like, uh, the, the speed is a bit better.Maybe ‘cause it's in, is written in rust or whatever. Um, very minor things that you like. Almost like telling yourself rather than like objectively assessing between two, two of them. I, I, I do think, like vibes wise, I think that's going on. Um, the, the, you know, I, I feel like the, the missing questions, uh, in, in this whole debate is like, why is this so concentrated in only two names, right?Yeah. Like, um, how, where, like, where is the Gemini? You know, presence, where's the Xai presence? Um, and like they are trying, it's just they haven't made that much progress yet.[00:32:12] Jacob Effron: But what the, what the Claude Co moment does show, and it actually in some ways makes you a little more bullish on the potential for someone else to catch up because it does feel like if you're the first person to introduce some magical net new product experience, that that actually might be stickier than one might have imagined.[00:32:27] swyx: Right, right, right. Okay. Yeah.[00:32:28] Jacob Effron: And so it's, everyone can believe they have shot[00:32:29] swyx: that. What do you think that new product experience might be like? I, I, it's, it's like, and this is a failure of imagination on my part. Like, I always wonder, like, people always say this like, well, the, the thing that will save us is like being first to the next new thing.Like what is it?[00:32:41] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:32:42] swyx: It's like,[00:32:45] Jacob Effron: I dunno, something around like, uh, consumer agent, computer use, like hybrid. I think, obviously, I think we're like scratching the surface on the consumer side.[00:32:53] swyx: So my, my current theory is like the. Open claw is like a vision of things to come.[00:32:58] Jacob Effron: Totally.[00:32:58] swyx: Um, and uh, it's good that O open I has like the association with open claw, but by no means do they have the rights to win it.The general thesis that I have been pursuing now is that the year the same way that 2025 was the year of coding agents, 2026 is coding agents breaking containment to do everything else. Um, and so coding agents continue to still win, but because they generate software and software eats the world, so like, it's kind of like the trans.Associated property of like software, eat the world, coding agents, eat software, therefore coding agents eat the world. Um, which is like an interesting,[00:33:30] Jacob Effron: yeah, and breaking containment always an easier phase phrase in the consumer context than the enterprise one. You've seen people run these really cool, uh, experiments in their own personal lives.I think like,[00:33:37] swyx: yes.[00:33:38] Jacob Effron: Figuring out, you know, how you, obviously everyone's focused, you know, on the enterprise side now around how you create these experiences. I feel like the vibes, you know, people love to have these narratives of like, everything is completely shifted. It's like I actually, you know, open AI.Organizationally, uh, you know, volatility aside is, you know, great products, great team, great models like everyone else in the world is incentivized for there to be. Two, three more. Everyone would love more like great model companies. And so I feel like the, the natural forces of the world revolt when any one company, you know, is too much the star of the show, right?There's so many people in the ecosystem that are incentivized for that not to happen. And so I think I'd be shocked if we don't have. Uh, uh, reversion of vibes, not maybe completely the other way, but at least a little bit more equal at some point over the next six, 12 months.[00:34:24] swyx: I, I think there's just a kind of different stages when, when you talk about the world, one wanting more model companies, I talked think about like the neo labs.[00:34:30] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:34:31] swyx: And I mean, I don't know, is it fair to say none of them have really broken through in the past year?[00:34:35] Jacob Effron: I think that's totally fair,[00:34:37] swyx: which is rough. Um, and well, how are we gonna, how are we gonna grow that diversity in, in, in choice, like. Um, that's, this is it.[00:34:46] Jacob Effron: Yeah. It'll be really interesting to see what, what, what ends up happening with that.And you've seen, you know, folks like Nvidia, you know, very incentivized to make sure there's, there's a broader platform of, of other model providers.[00:34:57] swyx: I think, uh, I don't know people say this, but I, I, I don't think they try it hard. Nvidia tries harder to build neo clouds[00:35:05] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:35:06] swyx: Than neo labs.[00:35:07] Jacob Effron: Well, they try pretty damn hard to build neo Cloud, so[00:35:09] swyx: that's,[00:35:09] Jacob Effron: yeah.[00:35:10] swyx: But like, you know, let's call it like the, the core weaves of the world, much happier place in the, you know, than any neo lab built on top of them.[00:35:18] Jacob Effron: Yeah. That one might argue it's, it's easier to, to enable a neo cloud to be successful than it is. Uh, you can't will a neo lab into existence the same way you, soNvidia[00:35:25] swyx: has more direct control over it.Uh, for sure.[00:35:27] Jacob Effron: What else is kind of catching your eye today on the startup side? I mean, you worry, there's obviously this whole narrative of like, you know, the foundation models, you know, they announced a product and every stock goes down 15%. Like[00:35:36] swyx: Yeah.[00:35:37] Jacob Effron: Do you, do you worry about the foundation models just kind of eating into to a bunch of these startup categories?[00:35:43] swyx: Not really. I, I think actually like. As, uh, there's, there's, okay, there's, there's, there's the, there's the point of view of like being an investor in startups, and there's a point of view of like, do you wanna start something? And I think honestly, like the, the downside for all these is so. Minimal in, in a sense of like, the worst you do is you just get hired into one of these labs anyway.So I, I think the, the market for people who just do things and try things and try to execute in like a competent way, even if like it doesn't work out commercially, even if it just wasn't that great anyway. Like, but like that's your job interview to go into, into one of these things anyway, so, um, I don't feel that.From a, from a very, very small startup perspective, mid-size startups. Yes. Uh, I will say there's been a lot of dead, um, LM Infra, a lot of LM infra consolidation like the, the, uh, lang fuses of the world getting absorbed into, into click house. And I, I think. Like people have maybe worked out the domain specific playbook, uh, and like, I think that's okay.Um, and, and yeah, I'm not that, not that worried about, uh, okay. So, um, I, I would say I'd be more worried about traditional SaaS, like low NPSS. This is the whole AI versus SaaS debate that has, that's been going on. Uh, and, and like literally I'm going through that exact thing in my company where, so I like kind of.Thinking through this on a very visceral, visceral level, right? On one hand you have the people who say you vibe coders don't appreciate the amount of work that goes into A-A-C-R-M and like, yeah, you think you can rip out Salesforce? So did the 30 entrepreneurs before you, right? Like, like, you know, you classically underestimate the things that you don't.Deeply, no. And, and, and target audience is not you. Uh, at the same time, like we have never been able to build software so easily and customize software so easily and like Yeah, you're not gonna use 90% of the things in Salesforce. So like, yeah. What's the typical, so what have you, what[00:37:33] Jacob Effron: have you done internally?[00:37:34] swyx: So we have there the main SaaS that we do for event management and sponsor management. That's, and we paid 200 KA year for that. Not, not huge, but like chunky for, for, for my, my scale. Um, and like, yeah, I could probably spend 2000 and, and build like a custom version of that. Um, the, the, the trick has been dealing with my, the rest of my team and getting them on board.Yeah. ‘cause I'm the most ethical person on my team, but like, I can't make that decision myself. And I think in the same way I've been telling with other CEOs team leaders as well, it's like, well you can be super cloud pilled. You can be super LM psychosis and that you think that's okay, but you like you have to bring your team with you.And I think like there, the sort of widening disparity in LM psychosis in companies is causing real s real riffs because. And on one hand, on one hand, the people who are less AI native are not getting with the picture. They're not, they're actually like behind, they're actually not waking up to the fact that like you, everything you think is necessary is not actually that necessary.And in fact, exactly would be better of you if you just like held your nose and went in and when came out the other side. Yeah, only talking to agents in natural language and like your life would actually be better and you just, you're just like close-minded. There's that perspective. The other perspective is, oh, you vibe coder.You, you did this in a weekend and you got the 80% solution and now the rest of your employees. Have to pick up the rest of your s**t, right, that you, that you thought you were, you were such hot, amazing, uh, uh, at, but like, actually you didn't figure it out. And like, actually LMS are still useless at this and blah, blah, blah.So like, I think there's this huge debate going on in every company right now. Um, and like, um, you know, I have a small microcosm of it, but like, yeah, it, it's making me hesitate to, to pull the trigger. But like I will at some point, it's like maybe I've put it off for one year, but not like five. Yeah, but like, so, so like SaaS is definitely getting squeezed.Um, it does make me wonder, like, I, I do think that there's an opportunity for a more AI native, um, system of record thing that is not just Postgres. Um, or not just MongoDB, although both are very good. Maybe it's like a convex or like people Yeah. Bring up convex a lot. I don't know, like, like, I, I just feel like the sort of quote unquote firebase of, of AI apps isn't really a thing yet.Um, beyond what we have. Uh, which, which is fine. It's, it's, it's just. We could probably start in a more sort of rapid iteration cycle first before scaling up to like a Postgres or MongoDB, which are more sort of old tech. I was at a dinner with, uh, Mike Krieger, the CPO of en philanthropic, and, and he, we were just kind of going around the room going like, what are people most worried about?Yeah. And, uh, for me, uh, I, instead of security, I brought up biosafety. Yeah,[00:40:21] Jacob Effron: classic.[00:40:22] swyx: Um, actually, like I said, it was. Cliche and classic, and the rest of the table were, were like, what do you mean? Someone sitting at home can manufacture a virus that wipes out half of humanity,[00:40:32] Jacob Effron: almost like the OG Jeffrey Hinton.Like, this is why you should be scared.[00:40:35] swyx: I'm like, yeah, like the read the, you know, risk reports. Like this is like the thing. Um, I think, and Mike was just sitting there knowing he was sitting on Mythos and going like, actually it's security. Um, and I think like, um, I think the, there's, there's, part of it is.A very good marketing. Like too good. Yeah, like I would actually advise and topic to tune down the marketing because also it's, it is just a very good model and you don't have to make so many marketing claims around it. At the same time, it is not really a private model. If you give it to 40 companies.Each of whom have like 10,000 employees or whatever. Right. It's not, it's not private, it's, it's like there's bad actors in there.[00:41:18] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully not as, uh, as bad as releasing it widely, but, uh, no, I mean, it's an interesting. You know, it's an interesting case study for how all, I mean, many model releases might, I mean, you know, this might be the first model release that looks like the rest of ‘em from from now on, right?[00:41:31] swyx: It, it, so it's, it's the, there's an overall product strategy, uh, for anthropic of like bundle, uh, you know, restrict access bundle, uh, product with model maybe.Whereas, uh, OpenAI has definitely been a lot more sort of. Philosophically aligned on like, we will just enable access everywhere and we don't know what you, what will come out of it. Right.[00:41:51] Jacob Effron: Right. Though, I mean, this current moment, uh, obviously the cynical take is also just ties to the amount of compute that both companies[00:41:56] swyx: Yeah.Right, right, right. Yeah, I think, I think that's true. I I do think like the, the, this is the, the, the scale, the dawn of like larger than 10 trillion parameter models is very interesting. I don't think it, I think it's a temporary phenomenon because we have much larger compute clusters coming online for everyone over the next like three, five years.It's, and this is like already written in, in the cards.[00:42:18] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:42:19] swyx: So to the extent that like, you know, will we have rationing of models, uh, above 10 trillion, uh, in like two years? I don't think so. I think everyone will have no, we'll just[00:42:29] Jacob Effron: have rationing of the next phase.[00:42:30] swyx: Right. Right. But like, that's as it should be almost like, um.My, my classic example, which I, this is just me theorizing, not anything confirmed by Google. When Google announced Gemini, they actually announced three sizes, which was Flash Pro Ultra. They never released Ultra. They only have Pro and Flash. Um, so my theory is they have ultra sitting in a basement and they just could distilling from it for, for flashing pro.Um, which like, yeah, I mean, I, I actually think that's. As it should be for any lab that they, that they do that.[00:43:02] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Just because those are the models that people actually wanna end up using. And it's just like cost prohibit.[00:43:06] swyx: It is more, yeah, it's cost. Yeah. It's, it's not the want, it's just, just, just the cost.Um, I do think, like, uh, it is interesting that, uh, for a while I was, I was considering the theory that models capped out at two, 2 trillion, and I think that's proving to be wrong. And well then if I'm wrong, how wrong? How wrong am I? Do we do 200 trillion? Do we do two quarter trillion, whatever? Um, and I don't think we have the straight answer to that, but like, uh, it's interesting that we are continuing to scale number of pers when everyone kind of assu like can see that we're not going to get like the next thousand or 1 million x from this paradigm.So like the others, like the alias of the world are working on other. Um, model architecture improvements. We need a different scaling law, I guess, because like, we're, I, I feel like people already already feel like we're tapped out on this. Like the, the end, the end state of this is we turn most of the world into data centers and like, I don't know.I don't know if we want that.[00:44:08] Jacob Effron: Yeah, I mean, uh, if the, if, if, if the return of intelligence are there, maybe, uh, maybe not so bad.[00:44:13] swyx: I, I, I think there, there's just a sheer amount of like, like un scalability that like is wrangling people's sensibilities right now. Um, especially in terms of like context lengths.Um, my classic quote is that context length is like the slowest scaling factor in, in lms.[00:44:30] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:44:30] swyx: Um, we, like, we took maybe. Three years to go from like 4,000 context length to a million and that's about it. Yeah. Like Gemini has had a million token context length for two years now. Um, and no one's using it.Like, so like yeah, it's memory. Memory is probably gonna be the, the biggest limiting constraint on all these things.[00:44:50] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Certainly seems that way. I guess I'm curious over the last year since you recorded last, like what's one thing you've changed your mind on?[00:44:57] swyx: I feel like I was kind of bearish on open models like last year.Um, in a sense of, like, I, I had just done the podcast with an Al[00:45:07] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:45:08] swyx: Of Braintrust where he, and he, I mean, you know, he has a good cross section of all the top AI companies and he says market share of open source is 5% and going down. Um, I think that's changed. I think it's going up. Um, and even if,[00:45:22] Jacob Effron: even though the capability gap does seem to be increasing.Spending on the[00:45:26] swyx: time. It's hard to tell. Yeah, it's, it's really hard to tell. ‘cause like, okay, for, for listeners, capability gap increasing is like on public benchmarks. And let's say you're comparing mythos versus like, I don't know, G-T-O-S-S or like GLM 5.1. And, um, it's, it is really hard to tell. ‘cause even if they were closing, you will also not believe that they were closing that much because it's very easy to gain the benchmarks.Yeah. So you just don't really, really know. Um, all you know is like. Uh, there's somewhat objective open router stats on like what people choose in a free market. And people do choose some of these open models in significant volume, except that a lot of them are heavily discounted. So you need to kind of like price adjust, uh, these things.So even if, even if that were true, which I, I'm not sure, like I, I, I feel like the numbers just up now instead of down. Uh, I think the. Separation between what the top tier agent labs

Adam Hurrey is joined on the Adjudication Panel by Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker. On the agenda: reviewing a perfectly-formed set of FA Cup quarter-finals, Ally McCoist combines three subtly different cliches into one, the technicalities of a "see-saw thriller", a potentially terrible football-chant-based TV game show, England strikers' names in 1980s cartoons, the future prospect of Diego Simeone in the Premier League and the universal potential of the phrase "lost a yard". Meanwhile, the panel get stuck into the newly-launched Premier League Archive, which contains highlights of every single top-flight game since 1992. Play the new Happy Hunting Grounds daily quiz at games.footballcliches.com Sign up for Dreamland, the members-only Football Clichés experience, to access our exclusive new show and much more: https://dreamland.footballcliches.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You know that feeling when you’re standing in your kitchen at 2 pm, the math curriculum is still sitting unopened on the table, your ADHD sixth grader has asked you the same question seventeen times, and you realize you haven’t eaten lunch? Yeah. Kara knows that feeling too. If you’re trying to homeschool when everyone has ADHD—you, your kid, maybe multiple kids—you know this isn’t just about finding the right chore chart. “I have two girls, ages eleven and seven. We’ve been homeschooling the entire time. I’m really struggling with feeling overwhelmed right now. My sixth grader has ADHD. We have Classical Conversations on Mondays with one of my homeschool girlfriends. Then on Friday. I’m also a teacher at a co-op with 30 students, teaching astronomy. Right now, I’m struggling with getting through all the things we need to do on the weekdays we’re at home, plus chores and home life and volunteering at church. And my husband works late hours.” Kara reached out because she knew something had to change. The jump to sixth grade brought an increased sense of urgency, and her daughter—who’s nearly an adolescent with hormones adding fuel to the ADHD fire—won’t sit still to do her work independently. Add in a younger child who mom feels is behind in reading and needs intensive support, and downtime for herself feels impossible. But here’s what Kara didn’t say in that initial message, because most moms don’t: She had become her family’s operating system. Constantly anticipating, tracking, adjusting, and holding things together for everyone around her. That level of awareness and care is just too much. No one can live there indefinitely without burning out. The Reality of Homeschooling When Everyone Has ADHD Trying to homeschool when everyone has ADHD means you’re managing multiple struggling brains simultaneously… Kara’s situation isn’t just about overwhelm. It’s about two parallel struggles happening simultaneously: Kara is learning to build routines, be realistic with her capacities, understand her margins, and manage her own ADHD brain and energy. If you want to learn more about questioning your unrealistic expectations, read this. Her daughter is learning the exact same things—but she’s doing it while navigating puberty, which makes everything so much harder. Here’s what the research tells us: while ADHD symptoms themselves may remain stable, adolescence brings additional challenges for girls with ADHD. Hormonal fluctuations during puberty affect emotional regulation, working memory, and attention—particularly during the menstrual cycle when estrogen levels drop. Girls with ADHD in their early teens show higher rates of mood disorders, increased academic struggles, and more difficulties with emotional regulation than their peers. What looked manageable at age 8 becomes significantly harder at age 11—not because the ADHD got worse, but because her brain is managing a neurological and hormonal double challenge. So when Kara says her sixth grader “struggles to work independently,” what she’s really describing is a girl whose brain is working overtime just to hold it together—and a mom who’s compensating by becoming the external hard drive for both of their brains. This is noble, but it is exhausting for me; and it’s not sustainable. The Shift: Stop Being Everyone’s Brain Kara’s breakthrough wasn’t about finding the right reward plan or chore schedule. It was about realizing she had a choice: she could keep managing everyone’s executive function, or she could start creating conditions that allowed both her and her daughter to build their own. This doesn’t mean disengaging or becoming permissive. For Kara, it meant choosing where her energy belonged. She stopped hovering over her daughter during every math problem and started asking, “What do you think you should try first?” Her daughter didn’t always get it right—but she started thinking for herself. But this doesn’t happen in one moment. It happens across many lived moments in a childhood. And here’s the part no one tells you: You have to learn how to do this for yourself first before you can teach it to her. If you want to read more about time management, read this. How to Homeschool When Everyone Has ADHD: The Atomic Habits Framework This is where James Clear’s Atomic Habits becomes useful—not as a rigid system, but as a flexible framework designed around how ADHD brains actually work. Atomic Habits teaches that habits follow identity and systems, not willpower. For Kara, this meant designing small, intentional habits and flexible systems that work for her family’s life, not against it. For both her AND her daughter. The challenge of homeschooling when everyone has ADHD isn’t about working harder—it’s about working smarter with systems that fit your brains. 1. Start Tiny: Stack New Habits Onto Existing Routines Kara writes her top priority for the day after pouring her coffee—just one small habit that sets the tone. Not a list of twelve things. One thing. For her daughter: One subject gets completed before anything else. Not all the subjects. One. This isn’t about lowering standards. It’s about building capacity from the ground up. Read more about habit stacking for homeschool moms here. 2. Identity-Based Goals: Who Do You Want to Be? Instead of “I need to get chores done,” Kara reframes it: I’m the homeschool mom who starts lessons calmly in a tidy space. Instead of “She needs to finish her work,” Kara reframes: She’s learning to manage her own responsibilities, even when it’s hard. The identity shift changes everything. It moves from pushing to becoming. 3. Time Blocks, Not Timetables Rigid schedules are ADHD kryptonite. They set you up to fail before you even start. Flexible blocks for lessons, meals, and breaks respect energy fluctuations and prevent overwhelm. Kara stopped trying to make 9:00-9:45 be “math time” and started creating a morning block where math happened somewhere in there. For her daughter: “You have this block of time to work. I’m available if you get stuck. I’m setting a timer for when I’ll check back in.” This externalizes the structure without making Mom the constant reminder system. Look, time blocking sounds great in theory, but feels impossible in practice when you have ADHD. That’s why I created the Time Blocking Guide for Homeschool Moms—it’s the realistic, ADHD-friendly version that actually works. Grab it here. Time Blocking Guide for Homeschool Moms Feel more grounded and less overwhelmed in your homeschool days.This printable Time Blocking Guide helps you create a realistic, peaceful homeschool rhythm by organizing your week with intention. Includes SMART goal planning, daily and weekly templates, and check-ins—so you can stop chasing perfection and start building a life that fits your family. $9.99 Shop now 4. Name Your Availability Instead of Being Endlessly On-Call This was a game-changer for Kara. Instead of being interrupted seventeen times during a lesson with her younger daughter, she started saying: “I’m teaching your sister right now. I’m available at 10:30. Write down your question or try to figure it out, and we’ll look at it together then.” Comfortable at first? Not even a little. Kara’s daughter would stand at her elbow, waiting, sometimes getting frustrated. But over time, something shifted. Her daughter started writing questions down. She started trying things on her own. She learned that struggling for five minutes wasn’t the end of the world—and that Mom wasn’t a 24/7 help desk. 5. Let Responsibility Land Where It Belongs (Even When It’s Uncomfortable) Kara had been carrying the responsibility for her daughter’s incomplete work. She reminded, redirected, sat next to her, prompted every step. The shift: “This is your work. I’m available to help when you’re stuck. If it’s not done by the end of our school block, we’ll talk about what happened.” Natural consequences are uncomfortable. But they’re also how humans learn. Kara remembers the first time she let her daughter sit with an incomplete assignment. Every part of her wanted to swoop in and “help” (read: do it for her). Instead, she sat on her hands and waited. Her daughter was upset. They talked about what happened. The next day, her daughter started her work earlier. Not because Mom nagged—because she’d lived the consequence and decided she didn’t like it. 6. Prune the Energy Drains Kara audited her week and realized she was doing things out of obligation, not alignment. The church volunteer role that drained her every Wednesday? Dropped. The elaborate co-op snacks she spent two hours making? Delegated to her husband or done “good enough” with store-bought options. She wasn’t being lazy. She was being intentional about where her energy belonged. You can’t prune what you can’t see. Download my free Time Audit for Homeschool Moms and figure out what’s actually eating your time (spoiler: it’s probably not what you think). Download my free Time Audit for Homeschool Moms What Actually Changed for Kara With these small, intentional shifts, Kara began to notice: Mornings feel calmer and less reactive Lessons and chores flow more smoothly (most days) Her daughter is starting to initiate work without being told (sometimes) Focus and energy are preserved for meaningful work Confidence grows because systems are working for her, not against her Notice I didn’t say “everything is perfect now” or “her daughter never struggles.” Because that’s not real life. Real life is: some days work, some days don’t. But the trajectory is different. The foundation is being built. And Kara is no longer the family’s operating system—she’s the coach, the guide, the one who creates conditions and then steps back enough to let her daughter build her own capacity. These results echo James Clear’s principle: tiny, consistent systems, built around who you want to be, compound into meaningful change. The Truth About Homeschooling When Everyone Has ADHD If you feel like Kara—overwhelmed, pulled in every direction, carrying an invisible load for everyone, trying to help your ADHD daughter while managing your own ADHD brain—you’re not alone. You’ve learned to stay highly engaged because it feels like the only way things work. Letting go doesn’t feel neutral—it feels risky. Of course it does. Kara felt the same way. For years, her constant involvement kept things moving. Slowly, maybe. Imperfectly, definitely. But moving. And that felt noble. Howeva… it was also costing her everything. Here’s the truth: this way of living isn’t sustainable. But there’s another way. Imagine being able to: Name your availability instead of being endlessly on-call Use visible timers to externalize your limits Let responsibility land where it belongs, even when it’s uncomfortable Build routines that work with your ADHD brain, not against it Teach your daughter to do the same None of this will be done perfectly. You will not get immediate results (for her or you). This is about noticing, experimenting, and giving yourself permission to engage differently—with less managing and more trust. You get to decide how you live your life. You get to lead your life. (And when you do that, your kids will learn to lead theirs too.) Ready to Take the Next Step? Kara said: “I know something has to change to make this sustainable… I’m ready to get support and take the next step.” If you’re ready too, I’d love to work with you. I coach homeschool moms who are trying to homeschool when everyone has ADHD and are done with the constant overwhelm… If you’re feeling stuck: Book your free Aligned Homeschool Reset session with me. We’ll talk through where you are, where you want to go, and whether coaching is the right next step. You don’t have to do this alone. Warmly,Teresa Book your free Aligned Homeschool Reset Session I help homeschool moms release pressure, edit expectations, and make small, intentional shifts that lead to a more confident and connected homeschool life. Book a Free Aligned Homeschool Reset Frequently Asked Questions About Homeschooling When Everyone Has ADHD How do I homeschool my child with ADHD when I also have ADHD? Start by accepting that you’re both learning the same skills—just at different stages. The strategies that help your child (external timers, flexible time blocks, one priority at a time) work for you too. The biggest shift? Stop trying to be your family’s operating system. Cliche, but true: you can’t pour from an empty cup, and you can’t teach executive function skills you haven’t practiced yourself. Start small: one priority before coffee gets cold. Build from there. Why is my ADHD child’s behavior getting worse in middle school? It’s probably not getting worse—it’s getting harder. Research shows that puberty adds a neurological and hormonal double challenge for kids with ADHD, especially girls. Dropping estrogen levels affect working memory, emotional regulation, and attention. What looked manageable at 8 becomes significantly harder at 11. This isn’t regression; it’s a developing brain under increased demands. Adjust your expectations and supports accordingly. How do I get my ADHD child to work independently? Gradually. Instead of hovering, try naming your availability: “I’m teaching your sister until 10:30. Write down your question or try to figure it out.” Yes, this will be uncomfortable at first. Your child might stand at your elbow, waiting. But over time, they’ll start problem-solving on their own—not because you nagged, but because you created space for them to build that capacity. What’s the best homeschool schedule for ADHD families? Not a rigid timetable—those are ADHD kryptonite. Use flexible time blocks instead. Rather than “math at 9:00 AM sharp,” create a morning block where math happens somewhere in there. This respects energy fluctuations without abandoning structure entirely. Pair this with external cues like visible timers so you’re not the constant reminder system. How do I stop feeling so overwhelmed as an ADHD homeschool mom? Audit your week and prune what drains you. That volunteer role you dread? The elaborate snacks you spend two hours making? These aren’t requirements—they’re choices you can unmake. You’re not being lazy by dropping them; you’re being intentional about where your limited energy belongs. Focus on what only you can do and let the rest go or become “good enough.” Will my ADHD child ever learn to manage themselves? Yes—but not if you keep managing everything for them. Natural consequences are uncomfortable, but they’re how humans learn. The first time you let an incomplete assignment sit without swooping in to “help” will feel awful. But when your child decides they don’t like that consequence? That’s when the shift happens. You’re not raising a child who needs you to function. You’re raising an adult who can lead their own life. You May Also Want to Read: 5 Overlooked Mistakes That Are Stressing You Out as a Homeschool Mom (& How to Fix Them) New Overwhelmed Homeschool Mom 7 Red Flags That Say You Need Homeschool Wellness Coaching—Before Burnout Hits How to Set Realistic High School Expectations? Learn Human Development How to Create a Personalized Homeschool High School (That Fits Your Teen) How Gordon Neufeld Informs my Homeschool Sibling Bickering in Homeschool Families: What's Normal & How to Handle It Foster Strong Relationships in Your Homeschool Family Stop Asking These 6 Homeschool Questions (That Sabotage Your Life) Everything you Want to Understand about the Overwhelmed Homeschool Mama

The podcast kicks off by Lino going shopping...and runs into a Cliche Catholic Listener. After that, Tyler rips off Songs from the Heart and picks songs to Biblical stories. And the podcast wraps up with Lino's Mom playing a round of Hickety Pickety!

This week, The Good, The Bad, and The Sequel sits down with actress Karen Cliche, whose career spans cult TV favorites, horror hits, and action-packed roles — including her unforgettable turn in Saw VI.Karen shares an incredible journey from growing up in a military family to stepping into the worlds of modeling and acting, carving out a unique path in the entertainment industry along the way.We get into everything, including:

The Lord says that His word is not to be used as a cliche'. His word is a double edge sword, it cuts to the marrow.

It's been almost three months since the Jewish community gathered to celebrate Chanukah at Sydney's Bondi beach, and 15 people were killed in Australia's worse Terror attack. Images of 43-year-old Syrian-Australian father-of-two Ahmed Al- Ahmed tackling and disarming one of the gunmen, went viral around the world. In the run up to Harmony Week, Ahmed joined the SBS Hebrew and Arabic teams to talk about his journey from his childhood in Syria to his ongoing recovery, and share a powerful message on what it truly means to be Australian in a time of crisis.

In today's episode we react to Bam Adebayo's insane game against the Wizards, Danny talks about how great of a show Family Guy is, Zach has been scraping up his whip, we draft cliche phrases that are good, answer some questions from the breadsticks, and more!! Be sure to tune in every Monday and Thursday for new episodes!

Reggie Adetula & Paul Gallant begin the show reacting & discussing the Rockets getting a close road win over the Charlotte Hornets to begin the stretch run. The Houston Astros begin Grapefruit League play tomorrow, & the infield issue looms. Reggie & Paul discuss. Plus, Question of the Day inspired by Sacramento State moving up to FBS.

Virgin guy gets the girl at last.Based on a post by S3lwyncd0g. Listen to the ►Podcast at Steamy Stories.I had no idea how much my life was about to change when I went to work that night in April 1980. I was nineteen, had no girlfriend, hell, never even been kissed. I had a job buffing floors in a department store. All the cleaning and restocking was done in the evening and right after closing. Then, after everyone was gone, I came in to do the floors. This way, no one was in my way or tracking on the floors. I would wax a different area each night and simply mop and buff all others as needed. I was going to Junior College and the store's general manager was my Dad's best friend and my godfather. Looking back, I was so lucky that this happened before camera surveillance systems were widespread and affordable.I stuck a tape in the cassette player in the office and it played over the store's sound system, Kool and the Gang was my music tonight. I turned around and nearly shit my pants. Daphne, the Boss's daughter, was right behind me, I yelped.“Sorry, Kip. Didn't mean to scare you.” she said.“T-That's okay,” I replied trying to calm down, “I didn't know anyone was here.”She pointed to her Dad's office, “Yeah, I was crashed on his sofa.”I noticed she had a sad demeanor and her hair was all mussed up.“I just didn't feel like going home and needed someplace to sit and think,” she said and turning, walked out of the office and onto the store floor.The offices were on the second floor which also contained the Home Decor and Furnishings as well as Clothing departments. I followed her.Daphne was almost like a cousin. We'd grown up together, she was a year older than me and had been a tomboy until puberty hit her. And boy, did it hit her hard. She went from cute to hot in no time. Of course boys noticed and flocked around her. I got left behind. Now at twenty she stood 5'9", was stacked with big tits and the naturally blonde hair from her Mother's Swedish family line. She was wearing a baggy blue crop-top and a pair of red and white striped tight short shorts. (ah the fashion of the 80's) Her long legs looked amazing. Naturally I followed her.“You okay?” I asked when I caught up with her.“Hmm? Oh yeah… I guess…” she mumbled. Then she stopped and leaned on the railing around the escalator. I stood there in silence.God, her ass looked awesome! I started to step away when she leaned forward on her elbows. Her crop top hung open and I could see her tits hanging free. They looked huge. Of course I wasn't experienced and had only seen tits in flashes and glimpses and Playboy. So this turned me on. I stood and stared for a moment then moved slightly to get a better view.“Kip? You know those silly episodes of shows and in movies where people swap bodies?”“Yeah.”“It's stupid, I know, doesn't happen, can't happen… but, damn, I wish I could do it right now.”“What do you mean?” I asked.Daphne turned and walked towards the Furnishings displays. She paused in a “Bedroom display” and stood in front of a dresser. It was wide and low with an enormous mirror.“I'm tired of this.” she said. “I was happier when we were kids and could play and swim and have fun together.” She looked at my reflection and continued, “You were my best friend and confidant. We had so much fun together. Remember when we went skinny dipping?” she smiled.We'd been only eight and nine at the time and didn't know anything about sex or attraction, hell we were so innocent, we weren't even curious. We simply got hot and swam, then dressed and went on playing. I'd actually forgotten about it.“Then suddenly I emerge from my cocoon a beautiful butterfly and everything changes.” She was quiet for a moment, just staring at her reflection. “I wish it hadn't.”I stepped closer, surprised to hear her confession. Taking a deep breath she continued.“Suddenly everyone wanted to be close to me, no… not just close. Everyone wanted to possess me, own me… use me. Even my Dad wanted to use me for advertising. Those photos they took? Yeah, those were the tame ones the company approved. Some were deemed unacceptable. Mom and Dad didn't care what the photographer asked me to do or wear or how to pose. They insisted that he was the professional and knew best. I felt cheap. And all the guys I dated? Every single one of them only wanted sex. That's why I dated so many guys. I'd date a guy till he pressed for sex, then drop him. Problem was that all the guys wanted sex, none of them wanted me.”Suddenly I felt guilty for looking at her tits.“Finally it happened. Six months ago, I went to a party. I was having fun, then I woke up the next day in a strange house with my ass in a gallon of cum. I'd been drugged and raped. I wanted to die.” Tears flowed as she continued. “They'd left polaroids of me getting fucked but nothing to identify them. I gave in and started having sex. I figured it was useless to refuse and the damage was already done, I wasn't a virgin. I ended up at another party where I lost count of the guys I fucked. Then I had a pregnancy scare and confessed to my folks. Mom and Dad saw the danger I was in. They supported me and protected me, even though it was too late. I've been to doctors, the police and psychiatrists. They say I'm clean and lucky. I didn't get pregnant or catch a disease. But there's no way to find who did it either. I had to cut out everyone who had been a part of my life before then. I was even afraid to go out or dress nice. I was afraid of someone seeing me and deciding they wanted me.”She looked at me.“I was so lonely. Then I thought of you. And I remembered how much fun we had, and how much we shared. I realized I hadn't had a best friend since I'd left you behind… And I realized you were my first boyfriend even if we didn't understand what that meant. I saw that I'd lost a really great guy. And I'm sorry for that. It was stupid.”“I'm sorry I didn't try to follow you.” I said. “I realized you were beautiful and figured that you were out of my league…”“Kip, Mom and I had a talk… well, we had a lot of talks, but… Look, do you think my dad is handsome?”“Uh, no.”“But my Mom is hot, right?”“Yeah!” I scoffed.“So I asked her why she picked him when she probably could have picked anyone. She said it was because he first was her best friend. They were friends first, lovers second. She said that's why they're happy.”“Oh.”“Kip? Can we go back? Can we be best friends again?”“Sure! Of course!”“And would you like to go out… sometime?”“Absolutely!”“Would you be my boyfriend?”I was touched. I realized how much I still cared for her and how much I'd missed her. I had been forced to push my feelings down and bury them.“I'd like that. I'd like that a lot.” I answered and a smile spread across my face.Daphne smiled and hugged me tightly. We stood there hugging as she sniffled for a while. My emotions were going everywhere. I was overjoyed to have my friend back, saddened that she had suffered, and… aroused by the feeling of her tits pressing tight against me, her arms around my neck, the warmth of her body… and my cock stiffened. In fact this had to be the fastest I went from flaccid to erect ever. I was mortified because there was no way Daphne could miss it.“Oh wow!” she said and rubbed her pelvis against my bulge. She giggled and squeezed me tighter. “God, Kip, that feels huge!”Releasing me she stepped back. I saw she was biting her lower lip as she stared at the bulge in my jeans. I knew that was a habit of hers when she was trying to make a decision. I tried to shift my hard on around a bit to get comfortable. Suddenly Daphne lunged forward and grabbed my belt. She opened my pants in a flash and yanked them down along with my briefs. My cock stood out and she grabbed it. Grinning she knelt in front of me and stroked it.It felt incredible. I'd jacked off before and this was so much better that I knew immediately that I wouldn't last. Daphne kissed it and sucked on it then when I cried out she swallowed all my cum. She finally released me and smiled.“Holy cow! That was amazing…” I mumbled.Daphne stood and kissed me. I felt her tongue slip into my mouth and her hands gripped my head tightly. My hands found her waist and slid up under her top without conscious thought. I felt her tits and she moaned.Daphne stepped back. She pulled off her top. Her tits were the most amazing tits I've ever seen. Even after all these years. They were round, full and firm, (I found out later she wore a 34D) with big pink areola and stubby darker nipples. She then shrugged off her tight shorts and panties. She flopped onto the display bed and held her arms out.I stripped quickly and joined her. She realized I was fumbling and guided my cock into her. Oh my god, the feeling of my first, warm, wet pussy was amazing. I had to stroke a few times to get all the way in, but she was full of encouragement. She finally had me going all out as she begged me for more.“Fuck me Kip! Fuck me! Yes!”Cliche as it may sound we came almost together. I was groaning and gasping as she practically screamed.But we didn't stop. We paused thrusting and grinding but I stayed inside of her and fairly stiff. We kissed over and over. I couldn't get enough of her. She wrapped her legs around my hips and squeezed. We continued to fuck and absolutely destroyed the display's bedding.My god, but she was loud! It drove me to pound her over and over. I came several times but we only slowed briefly. Each time she kissed, tongued and begged me for more. And my eager young cock responded quickly. This still turns me on, I am still thrilled by a loud lover.We fucked until I was spent, absolutely spent. I lay there panting, covered in sweat and Daphne rolled on top of me, we kissed and stared into each other's eyes. I caressed her back and she rubbed her wet crotch against me.“God, Kip! That was fantastic! Better than I dreamed!”“You dreamed?” I asked.“Well, yeah.” she said sitting up. “Last night in fact.”Daphne lay down on the bed and began caressing her breasts and playing with her nipples.“I gave into sex and enjoyed it, or rather, I enjoyed being wanted. I enjoyed getting fucked some of the time and endured it the rest of the time. But I seldom came. My orgasms were rare and sometimes disappointingly shallow and brief. Then I was celebate for so long, I was afraid to masturbate… afraid it would tempt me to go out and start look for sex. Finally, after talking to my Mom and thinking about you and what we had, I fell asleep last night and dreamed of you. I dreamed of seducing you and I woke up masturbating and about to cum.”“Did you?” I asked, grinning “Did you make yourself cum?”“Y-Yes…” she whispered.“Show me.” I whispered back. “Show me how you did it.”Daphne slid her right hand down her body to her moung and slowly spread her legs. Her hand massaged her pussy in circles as her left continued to squeeze her breast. She kept her eyes closed and slid two fingers into her pussy. I shifted to get a better view. She started stroking slowly and there was so much fluid, hers and mine, oozing out. I found it an unexpected turn on. My cock was stiff and I wanted to fuck her so badly but the sight mesmerized me. Soon she was stroking faster and faster. After a bit her hips began to rock. I glanced up and saw she was looking at me. She groaned and bit her lip as she came, her body going rigid for a moment.“I-I'mmm ccccuuuummmmmiinnnggg……” she moaned.I couldn't stand it. I mounted her and slid my cock into her as quickly as I could. Her pussy was so wet that I slid in all the way in one thrust. Her pussy was quivering and her eyes were wide as she gasped. She lifted her hands to my face and I found her wet finger in my mouth. I sucked them as I began to stroke in and out. Her titties bounced and I fucked harder and faster.“Ohhh gaawwwddd!” she moaned. “Ohhhhh yesssss! I'mmmm still ccuuummmminnnggggg…. Ohh god, oh god, oh god!” Daphne's eyes rolled back.Suddenly I exploded and came, pumping a huge load into Daphne's pussy. Daphne groaned and relaxed. I pulled out and she rolled onto her side and curled into a ball. Her pussy was visible as she pulled her knees up to her chest. I watched as my cum seeped from between those beautiful lips and flowed down to pool beneath her ass.I sat back and tried to control my breathing. This was insane! Fucking the boss's daughter, on the job, on a display bed! I looked around nervously. We were still alone. I found myself grinning both from the exhilaration of sex and the absurdity of it all.Daphne actually dozed off for a few minutes and I watched her as she slowly relaxed and rolled away from the puddle of wetness. She lay there and I realized just how beautiful she was. Not just sexy. She was that. But sweet and pretty and… I fell in love. She woke when I edged closer and caressed her hip and back. She smiled and we kissed.“Come on,” I said, “We've got a mess to clean up.”She looked at the bed and realized what we had done. We had not only ruined the bedding, but the wetness had seeped down into the mattress itself.After getting dressed, we gathered the soiled bedding and stuffed it into a garbage bag. She went to the back and retrieved another set and we remade the bed. She hung around while I finished buffing the floors, dancing to the music on the sound system. I hurried through the motions, but really the floors were in pretty good shape already. After putting my stuff away, I threw the bag of soiled bedding into the dumpster. I went back inside and found Daphne standing by the door to the offices. She seemed less cheerful and a little distant.“What's up?” I asked as I slid my arms around her.There were tears in her eyes as she looked at me. “Kip? Do… Do you want me? Really want me? Or am I just going to be your girlfriend for sex?”I was taken aback.“Of course I want you!”“But I was a slut. I've screwed a lot of guys…”“And you came to me.” I said. “And we didn't have to fuck but we did and it meant the world to me. Daphne, you were my first. Do you get it? I came to work a virgin and you gave yourself to me. I don't care how many guys you fucked before. You and I fucked and it was great! We came like, a jillion times and I want to do it again and again and again! And not just because you're sexy, but because you wanted me. And I want to be wanted, needed.”“I need you too Kip!” she said as the tears flowed freely. This sex with you was better than anything I've ever done… because it was you!“We kissed and I held her as she cried. Finally we locked up and I followed as she drove home.She developed a habit of popping in on me every night. Sometimes we fucked, sometimes we didn't. We were careful not to ruin any more displays. She later introduced me to oral sex, both giving and receiving. I loved eating her out, and she could get me off easily and swallow it all leaving nothing to clean up. Sometimes she would strip and dress in lingerie from the racks and dance for me.We dated and spent a lot of time together. I was surprised when her dad told me he was hiring another company to do the floors. But then he offered me a job as an Assistant Manager. When I accepted and we shook hands he grinned and said,“Good, can't have my son-in-law buffing floors all his life.”“Excuse me?”“I see the way you two are. You're in love. I'm in favor of it. The two of you belong together, you're good for each other. Just take your time and get it right, don't rush.”We did. And as I type this memory I know she is lying naked in our bed, waiting for me to come to her. So… goodnight.By S3lwyncd0g, for Literotica

Virgin guy gets the girl at last.Based on a post by S3lwyncd0g. Listen to the ►Podcast at Steamy Stories.I had no idea how much my life was about to change when I went to work that night in April 1980. I was nineteen, had no girlfriend, hell, never even been kissed. I had a job buffing floors in a department store. All the cleaning and restocking was done in the evening and right after closing. Then, after everyone was gone, I came in to do the floors. This way, no one was in my way or tracking on the floors. I would wax a different area each night and simply mop and buff all others as needed. I was going to Junior College and the store's general manager was my Dad's best friend and my godfather. Looking back, I was so lucky that this happened before camera surveillance systems were widespread and affordable.I stuck a tape in the cassette player in the office and it played over the store's sound system, Kool and the Gang was my music tonight. I turned around and nearly shit my pants. Daphne, the Boss's daughter, was right behind me, I yelped.“Sorry, Kip. Didn't mean to scare you.” she said.“T-That's okay,” I replied trying to calm down, “I didn't know anyone was here.”She pointed to her Dad's office, “Yeah, I was crashed on his sofa.”I noticed she had a sad demeanor and her hair was all mussed up.“I just didn't feel like going home and needed someplace to sit and think,” she said and turning, walked out of the office and onto the store floor.The offices were on the second floor which also contained the Home Decor and Furnishings as well as Clothing departments. I followed her.Daphne was almost like a cousin. We'd grown up together, she was a year older than me and had been a tomboy until puberty hit her. And boy, did it hit her hard. She went from cute to hot in no time. Of course boys noticed and flocked around her. I got left behind. Now at twenty she stood 5'9", was stacked with big tits and the naturally blonde hair from her Mother's Swedish family line. She was wearing a baggy blue crop-top and a pair of red and white striped tight short shorts. (ah the fashion of the 80's) Her long legs looked amazing. Naturally I followed her.“You okay?” I asked when I caught up with her.“Hmm? Oh yeah… I guess…” she mumbled. Then she stopped and leaned on the railing around the escalator. I stood there in silence.God, her ass looked awesome! I started to step away when she leaned forward on her elbows. Her crop top hung open and I could see her tits hanging free. They looked huge. Of course I wasn't experienced and had only seen tits in flashes and glimpses and Playboy. So this turned me on. I stood and stared for a moment then moved slightly to get a better view.“Kip? You know those silly episodes of shows and in movies where people swap bodies?”“Yeah.”“It's stupid, I know, doesn't happen, can't happen… but, damn, I wish I could do it right now.”“What do you mean?” I asked.Daphne turned and walked towards the Furnishings displays. She paused in a “Bedroom display” and stood in front of a dresser. It was wide and low with an enormous mirror.“I'm tired of this.” she said. “I was happier when we were kids and could play and swim and have fun together.” She looked at my reflection and continued, “You were my best friend and confidant. We had so much fun together. Remember when we went skinny dipping?” she smiled.We'd been only eight and nine at the time and didn't know anything about sex or attraction, hell we were so innocent, we weren't even curious. We simply got hot and swam, then dressed and went on playing. I'd actually forgotten about it.“Then suddenly I emerge from my cocoon a beautiful butterfly and everything changes.” She was quiet for a moment, just staring at her reflection. “I wish it hadn't.”I stepped closer, surprised to hear her confession. Taking a deep breath she continued.“Suddenly everyone wanted to be close to me, no… not just close. Everyone wanted to possess me, own me… use me. Even my Dad wanted to use me for advertising. Those photos they took? Yeah, those were the tame ones the company approved. Some were deemed unacceptable. Mom and Dad didn't care what the photographer asked me to do or wear or how to pose. They insisted that he was the professional and knew best. I felt cheap. And all the guys I dated? Every single one of them only wanted sex. That's why I dated so many guys. I'd date a guy till he pressed for sex, then drop him. Problem was that all the guys wanted sex, none of them wanted me.”Suddenly I felt guilty for looking at her tits.“Finally it happened. Six months ago, I went to a party. I was having fun, then I woke up the next day in a strange house with my ass in a gallon of cum. I'd been drugged and raped. I wanted to die.” Tears flowed as she continued. “They'd left polaroids of me getting fucked but nothing to identify them. I gave in and started having sex. I figured it was useless to refuse and the damage was already done, I wasn't a virgin. I ended up at another party where I lost count of the guys I fucked. Then I had a pregnancy scare and confessed to my folks. Mom and Dad saw the danger I was in. They supported me and protected me, even though it was too late. I've been to doctors, the police and psychiatrists. They say I'm clean and lucky. I didn't get pregnant or catch a disease. But there's no way to find who did it either. I had to cut out everyone who had been a part of my life before then. I was even afraid to go out or dress nice. I was afraid of someone seeing me and deciding they wanted me.”She looked at me.“I was so lonely. Then I thought of you. And I remembered how much fun we had, and how much we shared. I realized I hadn't had a best friend since I'd left you behind… And I realized you were my first boyfriend even if we didn't understand what that meant. I saw that I'd lost a really great guy. And I'm sorry for that. It was stupid.”“I'm sorry I didn't try to follow you.” I said. “I realized you were beautiful and figured that you were out of my league…”“Kip, Mom and I had a talk… well, we had a lot of talks, but… Look, do you think my dad is handsome?”“Uh, no.”“But my Mom is hot, right?”“Yeah!” I scoffed.“So I asked her why she picked him when she probably could have picked anyone. She said it was because he first was her best friend. They were friends first, lovers second. She said that's why they're happy.”“Oh.”“Kip? Can we go back? Can we be best friends again?”“Sure! Of course!”“And would you like to go out… sometime?”“Absolutely!”“Would you be my boyfriend?”I was touched. I realized how much I still cared for her and how much I'd missed her. I had been forced to push my feelings down and bury them.“I'd like that. I'd like that a lot.” I answered and a smile spread across my face.Daphne smiled and hugged me tightly. We stood there hugging as she sniffled for a while. My emotions were going everywhere. I was overjoyed to have my friend back, saddened that she had suffered, and… aroused by the feeling of her tits pressing tight against me, her arms around my neck, the warmth of her body… and my cock stiffened. In fact this had to be the fastest I went from flaccid to erect ever. I was mortified because there was no way Daphne could miss it.“Oh wow!” she said and rubbed her pelvis against my bulge. She giggled and squeezed me tighter. “God, Kip, that feels huge!”Releasing me she stepped back. I saw she was biting her lower lip as she stared at the bulge in my jeans. I knew that was a habit of hers when she was trying to make a decision. I tried to shift my hard on around a bit to get comfortable. Suddenly Daphne lunged forward and grabbed my belt. She opened my pants in a flash and yanked them down along with my briefs. My cock stood out and she grabbed it. Grinning she knelt in front of me and stroked it.It felt incredible. I'd jacked off before and this was so much better that I knew immediately that I wouldn't last. Daphne kissed it and sucked on it then when I cried out she swallowed all my cum. She finally released me and smiled.“Holy cow! That was amazing…” I mumbled.Daphne stood and kissed me. I felt her tongue slip into my mouth and her hands gripped my head tightly. My hands found her waist and slid up under her top without conscious thought. I felt her tits and she moaned.Daphne stepped back. She pulled off her top. Her tits were the most amazing tits I've ever seen. Even after all these years. They were round, full and firm, (I found out later she wore a 34D) with big pink areola and stubby darker nipples. She then shrugged off her tight shorts and panties. She flopped onto the display bed and held her arms out.I stripped quickly and joined her. She realized I was fumbling and guided my cock into her. Oh my god, the feeling of my first, warm, wet pussy was amazing. I had to stroke a few times to get all the way in, but she was full of encouragement. She finally had me going all out as she begged me for more.“Fuck me Kip! Fuck me! Yes!”Cliche as it may sound we came almost together. I was groaning and gasping as she practically screamed.But we didn't stop. We paused thrusting and grinding but I stayed inside of her and fairly stiff. We kissed over and over. I couldn't get enough of her. She wrapped her legs around my hips and squeezed. We continued to fuck and absolutely destroyed the display's bedding.My god, but she was loud! It drove me to pound her over and over. I came several times but we only slowed briefly. Each time she kissed, tongued and begged me for more. And my eager young cock responded quickly. This still turns me on, I am still thrilled by a loud lover.We fucked until I was spent, absolutely spent. I lay there panting, covered in sweat and Daphne rolled on top of me, we kissed and stared into each other's eyes. I caressed her back and she rubbed her wet crotch against me.“God, Kip! That was fantastic! Better than I dreamed!”“You dreamed?” I asked.“Well, yeah.” she said sitting up. “Last night in fact.”Daphne lay down on the bed and began caressing her breasts and playing with her nipples.“I gave into sex and enjoyed it, or rather, I enjoyed being wanted. I enjoyed getting fucked some of the time and endured it the rest of the time. But I seldom came. My orgasms were rare and sometimes disappointingly shallow and brief. Then I was celebate for so long, I was afraid to masturbate… afraid it would tempt me to go out and start look for sex. Finally, after talking to my Mom and thinking about you and what we had, I fell asleep last night and dreamed of you. I dreamed of seducing you and I woke up masturbating and about to cum.”“Did you?” I asked, grinning “Did you make yourself cum?”“Y-Yes…” she whispered.“Show me.” I whispered back. “Show me how you did it.”Daphne slid her right hand down her body to her moung and slowly spread her legs. Her hand massaged her pussy in circles as her left continued to squeeze her breast. She kept her eyes closed and slid two fingers into her pussy. I shifted to get a better view. She started stroking slowly and there was so much fluid, hers and mine, oozing out. I found it an unexpected turn on. My cock was stiff and I wanted to fuck her so badly but the sight mesmerized me. Soon she was stroking faster and faster. After a bit her hips began to rock. I glanced up and saw she was looking at me. She groaned and bit her lip as she came, her body going rigid for a moment.“I-I'mmm ccccuuuummmmmiinnnggg……” she moaned.I couldn't stand it. I mounted her and slid my cock into her as quickly as I could. Her pussy was so wet that I slid in all the way in one thrust. Her pussy was quivering and her eyes were wide as she gasped. She lifted her hands to my face and I found her wet finger in my mouth. I sucked them as I began to stroke in and out. Her titties bounced and I fucked harder and faster.“Ohhh gaawwwddd!” she moaned. “Ohhhhh yesssss! I'mmmm still ccuuummmminnnggggg…. Ohh god, oh god, oh god!” Daphne's eyes rolled back.Suddenly I exploded and came, pumping a huge load into Daphne's pussy. Daphne groaned and relaxed. I pulled out and she rolled onto her side and curled into a ball. Her pussy was visible as she pulled her knees up to her chest. I watched as my cum seeped from between those beautiful lips and flowed down to pool beneath her ass.I sat back and tried to control my breathing. This was insane! Fucking the boss's daughter, on the job, on a display bed! I looked around nervously. We were still alone. I found myself grinning both from the exhilaration of sex and the absurdity of it all.Daphne actually dozed off for a few minutes and I watched her as she slowly relaxed and rolled away from the puddle of wetness. She lay there and I realized just how beautiful she was. Not just sexy. She was that. But sweet and pretty and… I fell in love. She woke when I edged closer and caressed her hip and back. She smiled and we kissed.“Come on,” I said, “We've got a mess to clean up.”She looked at the bed and realized what we had done. We had not only ruined the bedding, but the wetness had seeped down into the mattress itself.After getting dressed, we gathered the soiled bedding and stuffed it into a garbage bag. She went to the back and retrieved another set and we remade the bed. She hung around while I finished buffing the floors, dancing to the music on the sound system. I hurried through the motions, but really the floors were in pretty good shape already. After putting my stuff away, I threw the bag of soiled bedding into the dumpster. I went back inside and found Daphne standing by the door to the offices. She seemed less cheerful and a little distant.“What's up?” I asked as I slid my arms around her.There were tears in her eyes as she looked at me. “Kip? Do… Do you want me? Really want me? Or am I just going to be your girlfriend for sex?”I was taken aback.“Of course I want you!”“But I was a slut. I've screwed a lot of guys…”“And you came to me.” I said. “And we didn't have to fuck but we did and it meant the world to me. Daphne, you were my first. Do you get it? I came to work a virgin and you gave yourself to me. I don't care how many guys you fucked before. You and I fucked and it was great! We came like, a jillion times and I want to do it again and again and again! And not just because you're sexy, but because you wanted me. And I want to be wanted, needed.”“I need you too Kip!” she said as the tears flowed freely. This sex with you was better than anything I've ever done… because it was you!“We kissed and I held her as she cried. Finally we locked up and I followed as she drove home.She developed a habit of popping in on me every night. Sometimes we fucked, sometimes we didn't. We were careful not to ruin any more displays. She later introduced me to oral sex, both giving and receiving. I loved eating her out, and she could get me off easily and swallow it all leaving nothing to clean up. Sometimes she would strip and dress in lingerie from the racks and dance for me.We dated and spent a lot of time together. I was surprised when her dad told me he was hiring another company to do the floors. But then he offered me a job as an Assistant Manager. When I accepted and we shook hands he grinned and said,“Good, can't have my son-in-law buffing floors all his life.”“Excuse me?”“I see the way you two are. You're in love. I'm in favor of it. The two of you belong together, you're good for each other. Just take your time and get it right, don't rush.”We did. And as I type this memory I know she is lying naked in our bed, waiting for me to come to her. So… goodnight.By S3lwyncd0g, for Literotica

Virgin guy gets the girl at last.Based on a post by S3lwyncd0g. Listen to the ►Podcast at Steamy Stories.I had no idea how much my life was about to change when I went to work that night in April 1980. I was nineteen, had no girlfriend, hell, never even been kissed. I had a job buffing floors in a department store. All the cleaning and restocking was done in the evening and right after closing. Then, after everyone was gone, I came in to do the floors. This way, no one was in my way or tracking on the floors. I would wax a different area each night and simply mop and buff all others as needed. I was going to Junior College and the store's general manager was my Dad's best friend and my godfather. Looking back, I was so lucky that this happened before camera surveillance systems were widespread and affordable.I stuck a tape in the cassette player in the office and it played over the store's sound system, Kool and the Gang was my music tonight. I turned around and nearly shit my pants. Daphne, the Boss's daughter, was right behind me, I yelped.“Sorry, Kip. Didn't mean to scare you.” she said.“T-That's okay,” I replied trying to calm down, “I didn't know anyone was here.”She pointed to her Dad's office, “Yeah, I was crashed on his sofa.”I noticed she had a sad demeanor and her hair was all mussed up.“I just didn't feel like going home and needed someplace to sit and think,” she said and turning, walked out of the office and onto the store floor.The offices were on the second floor which also contained the Home Decor and Furnishings as well as Clothing departments. I followed her.Daphne was almost like a cousin. We'd grown up together, she was a year older than me and had been a tomboy until puberty hit her. And boy, did it hit her hard. She went from cute to hot in no time. Of course boys noticed and flocked around her. I got left behind. Now at twenty she stood 5'9", was stacked with big tits and the naturally blonde hair from her Mother's Swedish family line. She was wearing a baggy blue crop-top and a pair of red and white striped tight short shorts. (ah the fashion of the 80's) Her long legs looked amazing. Naturally I followed her.“You okay?” I asked when I caught up with her.“Hmm? Oh yeah… I guess…” she mumbled. Then she stopped and leaned on the railing around the escalator. I stood there in silence.God, her ass looked awesome! I started to step away when she leaned forward on her elbows. Her crop top hung open and I could see her tits hanging free. They looked huge. Of course I wasn't experienced and had only seen tits in flashes and glimpses and Playboy. So this turned me on. I stood and stared for a moment then moved slightly to get a better view.“Kip? You know those silly episodes of shows and in movies where people swap bodies?”“Yeah.”“It's stupid, I know, doesn't happen, can't happen… but, damn, I wish I could do it right now.”“What do you mean?” I asked.Daphne turned and walked towards the Furnishings displays. She paused in a “Bedroom display” and stood in front of a dresser. It was wide and low with an enormous mirror.“I'm tired of this.” she said. “I was happier when we were kids and could play and swim and have fun together.” She looked at my reflection and continued, “You were my best friend and confidant. We had so much fun together. Remember when we went skinny dipping?” she smiled.We'd been only eight and nine at the time and didn't know anything about sex or attraction, hell we were so innocent, we weren't even curious. We simply got hot and swam, then dressed and went on playing. I'd actually forgotten about it.“Then suddenly I emerge from my cocoon a beautiful butterfly and everything changes.” She was quiet for a moment, just staring at her reflection. “I wish it hadn't.”I stepped closer, surprised to hear her confession. Taking a deep breath she continued.“Suddenly everyone wanted to be close to me, no… not just close. Everyone wanted to possess me, own me… use me. Even my Dad wanted to use me for advertising. Those photos they took? Yeah, those were the tame ones the company approved. Some were deemed unacceptable. Mom and Dad didn't care what the photographer asked me to do or wear or how to pose. They insisted that he was the professional and knew best. I felt cheap. And all the guys I dated? Every single one of them only wanted sex. That's why I dated so many guys. I'd date a guy till he pressed for sex, then drop him. Problem was that all the guys wanted sex, none of them wanted me.”Suddenly I felt guilty for looking at her tits.“Finally it happened. Six months ago, I went to a party. I was having fun, then I woke up the next day in a strange house with my ass in a gallon of cum. I'd been drugged and raped. I wanted to die.” Tears flowed as she continued. “They'd left polaroids of me getting fucked but nothing to identify them. I gave in and started having sex. I figured it was useless to refuse and the damage was already done, I wasn't a virgin. I ended up at another party where I lost count of the guys I fucked. Then I had a pregnancy scare and confessed to my folks. Mom and Dad saw the danger I was in. They supported me and protected me, even though it was too late. I've been to doctors, the police and psychiatrists. They say I'm clean and lucky. I didn't get pregnant or catch a disease. But there's no way to find who did it either. I had to cut out everyone who had been a part of my life before then. I was even afraid to go out or dress nice. I was afraid of someone seeing me and deciding they wanted me.”She looked at me.“I was so lonely. Then I thought of you. And I remembered how much fun we had, and how much we shared. I realized I hadn't had a best friend since I'd left you behind… And I realized you were my first boyfriend even if we didn't understand what that meant. I saw that I'd lost a really great guy. And I'm sorry for that. It was stupid.”“I'm sorry I didn't try to follow you.” I said. “I realized you were beautiful and figured that you were out of my league…”“Kip, Mom and I had a talk… well, we had a lot of talks, but… Look, do you think my dad is handsome?”“Uh, no.”“But my Mom is hot, right?”“Yeah!” I scoffed.“So I asked her why she picked him when she probably could have picked anyone. She said it was because he first was her best friend. They were friends first, lovers second. She said that's why they're happy.”“Oh.”“Kip? Can we go back? Can we be best friends again?”“Sure! Of course!”“And would you like to go out… sometime?”“Absolutely!”“Would you be my boyfriend?”I was touched. I realized how much I still cared for her and how much I'd missed her. I had been forced to push my feelings down and bury them.“I'd like that. I'd like that a lot.” I answered and a smile spread across my face.Daphne smiled and hugged me tightly. We stood there hugging as she sniffled for a while. My emotions were going everywhere. I was overjoyed to have my friend back, saddened that she had suffered, and… aroused by the feeling of her tits pressing tight against me, her arms around my neck, the warmth of her body… and my cock stiffened. In fact this had to be the fastest I went from flaccid to erect ever. I was mortified because there was no way Daphne could miss it.“Oh wow!” she said and rubbed her pelvis against my bulge. She giggled and squeezed me tighter. “God, Kip, that feels huge!”Releasing me she stepped back. I saw she was biting her lower lip as she stared at the bulge in my jeans. I knew that was a habit of hers when she was trying to make a decision. I tried to shift my hard on around a bit to get comfortable. Suddenly Daphne lunged forward and grabbed my belt. She opened my pants in a flash and yanked them down along with my briefs. My cock stood out and she grabbed it. Grinning she knelt in front of me and stroked it.It felt incredible. I'd jacked off before and this was so much better that I knew immediately that I wouldn't last. Daphne kissed it and sucked on it then when I cried out she swallowed all my cum. She finally released me and smiled.“Holy cow! That was amazing…” I mumbled.Daphne stood and kissed me. I felt her tongue slip into my mouth and her hands gripped my head tightly. My hands found her waist and slid up under her top without conscious thought. I felt her tits and she moaned.Daphne stepped back. She pulled off her top. Her tits were the most amazing tits I've ever seen. Even after all these years. They were round, full and firm, (I found out later she wore a 34D) with big pink areola and stubby darker nipples. She then shrugged off her tight shorts and panties. She flopped onto the display bed and held her arms out.I stripped quickly and joined her. She realized I was fumbling and guided my cock into her. Oh my god, the feeling of my first, warm, wet pussy was amazing. I had to stroke a few times to get all the way in, but she was full of encouragement. She finally had me going all out as she begged me for more.“Fuck me Kip! Fuck me! Yes!”Cliche as it may sound we came almost together. I was groaning and gasping as she practically screamed.But we didn't stop. We paused thrusting and grinding but I stayed inside of her and fairly stiff. We kissed over and over. I couldn't get enough of her. She wrapped her legs around my hips and squeezed. We continued to fuck and absolutely destroyed the display's bedding.My god, but she was loud! It drove me to pound her over and over. I came several times but we only slowed briefly. Each time she kissed, tongued and begged me for more. And my eager young cock responded quickly. This still turns me on, I am still thrilled by a loud lover.We fucked until I was spent, absolutely spent. I lay there panting, covered in sweat and Daphne rolled on top of me, we kissed and stared into each other's eyes. I caressed her back and she rubbed her wet crotch against me.“God, Kip! That was fantastic! Better than I dreamed!”“You dreamed?” I asked.“Well, yeah.” she said sitting up. “Last night in fact.”Daphne lay down on the bed and began caressing her breasts and playing with her nipples.“I gave into sex and enjoyed it, or rather, I enjoyed being wanted. I enjoyed getting fucked some of the time and endured it the rest of the time. But I seldom came. My orgasms were rare and sometimes disappointingly shallow and brief. Then I was celebate for so long, I was afraid to masturbate… afraid it would tempt me to go out and start look for sex. Finally, after talking to my Mom and thinking about you and what we had, I fell asleep last night and dreamed of you. I dreamed of seducing you and I woke up masturbating and about to cum.”“Did you?” I asked, grinning “Did you make yourself cum?”“Y-Yes…” she whispered.“Show me.” I whispered back. “Show me how you did it.”Daphne slid her right hand down her body to her moung and slowly spread her legs. Her hand massaged her pussy in circles as her left continued to squeeze her breast. She kept her eyes closed and slid two fingers into her pussy. I shifted to get a better view. She started stroking slowly and there was so much fluid, hers and mine, oozing out. I found it an unexpected turn on. My cock was stiff and I wanted to fuck her so badly but the sight mesmerized me. Soon she was stroking faster and faster. After a bit her hips began to rock. I glanced up and saw she was looking at me. She groaned and bit her lip as she came, her body going rigid for a moment.“I-I'mmm ccccuuuummmmmiinnnggg……” she moaned.I couldn't stand it. I mounted her and slid my cock into her as quickly as I could. Her pussy was so wet that I slid in all the way in one thrust. Her pussy was quivering and her eyes were wide as she gasped. She lifted her hands to my face and I found her wet finger in my mouth. I sucked them as I began to stroke in and out. Her titties bounced and I fucked harder and faster.“Ohhh gaawwwddd!” she moaned. “Ohhhhh yesssss! I'mmmm still ccuuummmminnnggggg…. Ohh god, oh god, oh god!” Daphne's eyes rolled back.Suddenly I exploded and came, pumping a huge load into Daphne's pussy. Daphne groaned and relaxed. I pulled out and she rolled onto her side and curled into a ball. Her pussy was visible as she pulled her knees up to her chest. I watched as my cum seeped from between those beautiful lips and flowed down to pool beneath her ass.I sat back and tried to control my breathing. This was insane! Fucking the boss's daughter, on the job, on a display bed! I looked around nervously. We were still alone. I found myself grinning both from the exhilaration of sex and the absurdity of it all.Daphne actually dozed off for a few minutes and I watched her as she slowly relaxed and rolled away from the puddle of wetness. She lay there and I realized just how beautiful she was. Not just sexy. She was that. But sweet and pretty and… I fell in love. She woke when I edged closer and caressed her hip and back. She smiled and we kissed.“Come on,” I said, “We've got a mess to clean up.”She looked at the bed and realized what we had done. We had not only ruined the bedding, but the wetness had seeped down into the mattress itself.After getting dressed, we gathered the soiled bedding and stuffed it into a garbage bag. She went to the back and retrieved another set and we remade the bed. She hung around while I finished buffing the floors, dancing to the music on the sound system. I hurried through the motions, but really the floors were in pretty good shape already. After putting my stuff away, I threw the bag of soiled bedding into the dumpster. I went back inside and found Daphne standing by the door to the offices. She seemed less cheerful and a little distant.“What's up?” I asked as I slid my arms around her.There were tears in her eyes as she looked at me. “Kip? Do… Do you want me? Really want me? Or am I just going to be your girlfriend for sex?”I was taken aback.“Of course I want you!”“But I was a slut. I've screwed a lot of guys…”“And you came to me.” I said. “And we didn't have to fuck but we did and it meant the world to me. Daphne, you were my first. Do you get it? I came to work a virgin and you gave yourself to me. I don't care how many guys you fucked before. You and I fucked and it was great! We came like, a jillion times and I want to do it again and again and again! And not just because you're sexy, but because you wanted me. And I want to be wanted, needed.”“I need you too Kip!” she said as the tears flowed freely. This sex with you was better than anything I've ever done… because it was you!“We kissed and I held her as she cried. Finally we locked up and I followed as she drove home.She developed a habit of popping in on me every night. Sometimes we fucked, sometimes we didn't. We were careful not to ruin any more displays. She later introduced me to oral sex, both giving and receiving. I loved eating her out, and she could get me off easily and swallow it all leaving nothing to clean up. Sometimes she would strip and dress in lingerie from the racks and dance for me.We dated and spent a lot of time together. I was surprised when her dad told me he was hiring another company to do the floors. But then he offered me a job as an Assistant Manager. When I accepted and we shook hands he grinned and said,“Good, can't have my son-in-law buffing floors all his life.”“Excuse me?”“I see the way you two are. You're in love. I'm in favor of it. The two of you belong together, you're good for each other. Just take your time and get it right, don't rush.”We did. And as I type this memory I know she is lying naked in our bed, waiting for me to come to her. So… goodnight.By S3lwyncd0g, for Literotica

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Cliche or not, engaging with art is certainly one of the best ways to take a step back when the news cycle gets extra heavy. On the show today, Kimberly is joined by Maggie Smith, poet and host of “The Slowdown” podcast. They talk about why reading and writing are so good for the soul, and about the importance of practicing creativity when funding for the arts is under attack. Maggie also reads a poem she selected specially for us! Plus, we'll hear from two listeners about their self-care rituals.

Cliche or not, engaging with art is certainly one of the best ways to take a step back when the news cycle gets extra heavy. On the show today, Kimberly is joined by Maggie Smith, poet and host of “The Slowdown” podcast. They talk about why reading and writing are so good for the soul, and about the importance of practicing creativity when funding for the arts is under attack. Maggie also reads a poem she selected specially for us! Plus, we'll hear from two listeners about their self-care rituals.

Are you struggling to hear God's voice in the middle of a chaotic season? In this episode, Caren Regina addresses the disconnect between your faith and your reality. This isn't a lesson on "believing harder", it is a mentorship session on why spiritual information isn't producing real-world results in your life, business, or home. If you are a Christian woman leader facing spiritual burnout or workplace conflict, you've likely felt that "Holy Spirit talk" can sometimes feel like a cliché. Caren reveals how to move past the noise and activate Holy Spirit as the Architect of your life's infrastructure. If you are tired of "blessing a mess" and ready to build with spiritual authority, this episode is your blueprint. In this episode, we explore: Beyond the Cliché: How to move from knowing about Holy Spirit to building with Holy Spirit. Corporate & Business Strategy: Using spiritual discernment to navigate difficult coworkers and professional plateaus. The Truth Sit-Down: A practical strategy to align your daily schedule with divine instruction. Resources Mentioned: Join The Closet: Ready to build your secret place? [CLICK HERE]

Chore-Play, anyone?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's our final day on radio and we are TWO sleeps away from Super Bowl 60! There are still people out there saying this game lacks star power, meanwhile JSN took home OPOY honors, Nick Emmanwori finished 2nd in DROY voting (he was robbed) and Mike MacDonald finished 3rd in Coach of the Year voting with Mike Vrabel winning the award. This game will feature the runner-up MVP as well in Drake Maye going against the QB that everyone can't stop doubting. Those who think this matchup is boring, just don't pay attention to football, it's that simple. :30- Nick Emmanwori's injury had every Seahawks fan holding their breath and it seems we can let out a little sigh of relief as all signs are pointing to him playing on Sunday. Phew! :45- No cliché keys to victory! We give our keys to a Seahawks Super Bowl win, no clichés allowed! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's our final day on radio and we are TWO sleeps away from Super Bowl 60! There are still people out there saying this game lacks star power, meanwhile JSN took home OPOY honors, Nick Emmanwori finished 2nd in DROY voting (he was robbed) and Mike MacDonald finished 3rd in Coach of the Year voting with Mike Vrabel winning the award. This game will feature the runner-up MVP as well in Drake Maye going against the QB that everyone can't stop doubting. Those who think this matchup is boring, just don't pay attention to football, it's that simple. :30- Nick Emmanwori's injury had every Seahawks fan holding their breath and it seems we can let out a little sigh of relief as all signs are pointing to him playing on Sunday. Phew! :45- No cliché keys to victory! We give our keys to a Seahawks Super Bowl win, no clichés allowed!

Mike Johnson, Beau Morgan, and Ali Mac react to and give their initial thoughts on new Atlanta Falcons General Manager Ian Cunningham's introductory press conference yesterday, let you hear Cunningham talk about prioritizing long term versus short term objectives and what made him comfortable with the Falcons Front Office setup that includes him working 'under' Falcons President of Football Matt Ryan, react to what Ian had to say, and talk about how the Falcons new GM crushed his introductory press conference yesterday because he didn't try to talk in cliches, and sounded very experienced in all of his answers.

On today's episode we are joined by Rico Bosco & Dante the Don for a draft of the best Cliche Parental Phrases.You can find every episode of this show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Prime Members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. For more, visit barstool.link/thedogwalk

It's an NFC (AFC) Championship Friday! How confident are we feeling heading into this third matchup with the Rams and why? It starts with the defense and how well this Seahawks team has been playing, but this game isn't going to be easy by any means! :30- We're getting the Cher-Coacherie Board early this morning! The Ravens have hired Jesse Minter as their new head coach and Chuck predicted this one a few weeks ago in Reckless at Breakfast. With Minter in at Baltimore, where will Klint Kubiak end up or will he stay with the Hawks for at least one more year? Would Buffalo roll the dice on a first-year head coach? :45- No Cliché Keys to Victory! We give our keys to a Seahawks win over the Rams in the NFC Championship, no cliches allowed! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's an NFC (AFC) Championship Friday! How confident are we feeling heading into this third matchup with the Rams and why? It starts with the defense and how well this Seahawks team has been playing, but this game isn't going to be easy by any means! :30- We're getting the Cher-Coacherie Board early this morning! The Ravens have hired Jesse Minter as their new head coach and Chuck predicted this one a few weeks ago in Reckless at Breakfast. With Minter in at Baltimore, where will Klint Kubiak end up or will he stay with the Hawks for at least one more year? Would Buffalo roll the dice on a first-year head coach? :45- No Cliché Keys to Victory! We give our keys to a Seahawks win over the Rams in the NFC Championship, no cliches allowed!

It's a Playoff Football Friday and we are playoff ready! The Superstitions are alive and well and Ashley has quite the conundrum… #ObliqueWatch is on and it's got every Seahawks fan on edge after Sam Darnold tweaked his oblique in practice yesterday. He says there's close to a zero chance he won't play tomorrow, but we'd be lying if we said we weren't nervous. :30- ICYMI Matt Hasselbeck: we talked with Matt on Wednesday (before the Sam Darnold injury), and got his thoughts on playing San Francisco again and preparing an offensive gameplan with a defense like the Seahawks have. :45- No Cliché Keys to victory! We give our keys to a Seahawks victory over the 49ers, no cliches allowed! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's a Playoff Football Friday and we are playoff ready! The Superstitions are alive and well and Ashley has quite the conundrum… #ObliqueWatch is on and it's got every Seahawks fan on edge after Sam Darnold tweaked his oblique in practice yesterday. He says there's close to a zero chance he won't play tomorrow, but we'd be lying if we said we weren't nervous. :30- ICYMI Matt Hasselbeck: we talked with Matt on Wednesday (before the Sam Darnold injury), and got his thoughts on playing San Francisco again and preparing an offensive gameplan with a defense like the Seahawks have. :45- No Cliché Keys to victory! We give our keys to a Seahawks victory over the 49ers, no cliches allowed!

As 2026 gets underway, I think many people are reluctant to look back on 2025 with warm feelings. Good riddance . Putting all of those dark thoughts aside, I did want to go through an inventory of other things that I hope I will see less of in the coming year and look at a list of resolutions. Cliche, but important. 

First he's here, then he's gone and now… he's back? Demond Williams signed a revenue sharing deal with UW on January 2nd, before deciding he could do better at LSU and announcing he was entering the transfer portal, blindsiding coaches, teammates and his agent. Unfortunately for Demond, the contract he signed was legally binding and now, he's “decided” to come back to UW. Can he earn the trust of his teammates, coaches and the fans back or is the damage done? :30- Are the Seahawks peaking at the right time? We talked to Matt Hasselbeck about it on Wednesday and his thoughts on how hot the Hawks are right now sparked a conversation. :45- We do it every Friday, it's our No Cliché Keys to Victory! Yes, the Seahawks are on bye, so the keys are a little different this week. What will it take for the Hawks to advance to next week? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

First he's here, then he's gone and now… he's back? Demond Williams signed a revenue sharing deal with UW on January 2nd, before deciding he could do better at LSU and announcing he was entering the transfer portal, blindsiding coaches, teammates and his agent. Unfortunately for Demond, the contract he signed was legally binding and now, he's “decided” to come back to UW. Can he earn the trust of his teammates, coaches and the fans back or is the damage done? :30- Are the Seahawks peaking at the right time? We talked to Matt Hasselbeck about it on Wednesday and his thoughts on how hot the Hawks are right now sparked a conversation. :45- We do it every Friday, it's our No Cliché Keys to Victory! Yes, the Seahawks are on bye, so the keys are a little different this week. What will it take for the Hawks to advance to next week?

As cliché as it sounds, I made a New Year's resolution to get in better hiking shape! Here, I share my three tips for a stronger you on the trail!               Links- AMC At Home Workout - https://www.outdoors.org/resources/amc-outdoors/outdoor-resources/home-workout-for-hiking/ Strength workout for hikers - https://www.summitstrength.com.au/blog/strength-workout-for-hikers Connect with Anna, aka Mud Butt, at info@traildames.com You can find the Trail Dames at: Our website: https://www.traildames.com The Summit: https://www.traildamessummit.com The Trail Dames Foundation: https://www.tdcharitablefoundation.org Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/traildames/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/traildames/ Hiking Radio Network: https://hikingradionetwork.com/ Hiking Radio Network on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hikingradionetwork/ Music provided for this Podcast by The Burns Sisters "Dance Upon This Earth" https://www.theburnssisters.com

Nuestro Insólito Universo ¦¦ Grandes Clichés del Cine, En los cinco minutos de duración que tiene este programa se narran historias asombrosas referentes a cualquier tema.La primera transmisión de este programa se realizó por la RadioNacional de Venezuela el 4 de agosto de 1969 y su éxito fue tal que, posteriormente, fue transmitido también por Radio Capital y, actualmente, se mantiene en la Radio Nacional (AM) y en los circuitos Éxitos y Onda, de Unión Radio (FM), lo cual le otorga una tribuna de red AM y FM que cubren todo el país, uno de los programas radiales más premiados y de mayor duración en la historia de la radio de Venezuela.

Meet Celeste Bell, a filmmaker and a writer, and who has recently been working on a book and film project about her late mother, Poly Styrene. The book is called Dayglo! The Poly Styrene Story and the film is called, Poly Styrene: I Am a Cliche. [This episode previously aired in 2021.]

It's a football Friday as we prepare for the Seahawks to face the Panthers on Sunday morning. Who is this Panthers team? They've got a chance to win the division, which would be an over-achievement given where they were a year and a half ago. The Panthers aren't the only team playing for something though, as the Hawks need this W just as bad, if not more than Carolina. :30- Kyle Wittingham has emerged as the top candidate for the Michigan head-coaching job, despite the fact that he just retired from Utah two weeks ago. :45- No cliché keys to victory- our keys to a Seahawks win over the Panthers, no (some) cliches allowed!

It's a football Friday as we prepare for the Seahawks to face the Panthers on Sunday morning. Who is this Panthers team? They've got a chance to win the division, which would be an over-achievement given where they were a year and a half ago. The Panthers aren't the only team playing for something though, as the Hawks need this W just as bad, if not more than Carolina. :30- Kyle Wittingham has emerged as the top candidate for the Michigan head-coaching job, despite the fact that he just retired from Utah two weeks ago. :45- No cliché keys to victory- our keys to a Seahawks win over the Panthers, no (some) cliches allowed! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's GAMEDAY!! Is this the biggest regular-season game in the last 5 years? 10 years? The Seahawks will be without Charles Cross tonight and we still don't know if the Rams will be without Adams or not, but their other wide receiver, Puka Nacua is the one making headlines this week. :30- Should Kyle Shanahan win Coach of the Year? The 49ers have dealt with more injuries than anyone and they're still in contention to win the NFC West. What's going on at UW? Several big name players are heading to the transfer portal- do they know something we don't? Does it have something to do with the Jedd Fisch rumors to Michigan? :45- With the game tonight, it's No Cliché Keys to Victory on a Thursday! What will it take for the Seahawks to beat the Rams? No cliches allowed!

It's GAMEDAY!! Is this the biggest regular-season game in the last 5 years? 10 years? The Seahawks will be without Charles Cross tonight and we still don't know if the Rams will be without Adams or not, but their other wide receiver, Puka Nacua is the one making headlines this week. :30- Should Kyle Shanahan win Coach of the Year? The 49ers have dealt with more injuries than anyone and they're still in contention to win the NFC West. What's going on at UW? Several big name players are heading to the transfer portal- do they know something we don't? Does it have something to do with the Jedd Fisch rumors to Michigan? :45- With the game tonight, it's No Cliché Keys to Victory on a Thursday! What will it take for the Seahawks to beat the Rams? No cliches allowed! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Need help with a negotiation? Text us and we'll feature your question on the show.Is the goal of a negotiation to gain a "distinct unfair advantage"? In this episode, host John Lowry sits down with global insurance executive Barry Stowe to dismantle that Wall Street myth and reveal a more profitable path.Stowe, who led Prudential Corporation Asia through a season of unprecedented growth, shares the counter-intuitive strategies that helped him close deals across the globe—from India to Japan. You'll hear why he warns against being the "ugly American" and how a simple mistake with a traffic signal in Vietnam taught him a profound lesson about leadership and perception.Tune in to discover:The Renegotiation Paradox: Why Stowe voluntarily offered to quadruple a partner's revenue mid-contract—and how that "generosity" secured 20% of his company's regional profit.The 13-Hour Dinner: The extreme length Stowe went to—flying a CEO from London to Singapore just for one meal—to prove respect and save a deal with a family-owned bank.The "George Washington" Rule: Why the most brilliant move a leader can make is knowing exactly when to walk away.Get My Book: Negotiation Made SimpleSchedule a Live WorkshopSchedule a Private WorkshopGet Private Coaching from MeGain Access to My Online CourseFollow Me on LinkedIn

Welcome back to the Ultimate Guide to Partnering® Podcast. AI agents are your next customers. Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ Jen Odess, Group Vice President of Partner Excellence at ServiceNow, joins Vince Menzione to discuss the company’s incredible transformation from an IT ticketing solution to a leading AI-native platform for business transformation. Jen dives deep into how ServiceNow has strategically invested in and infused AI into its unified platform over the last decade, enabling over a billion workflows daily. She also outlines the critical role of the partner ecosystem, which executes 87% of all implementations, and reveals the company’s strategic initiatives, including its commitment to the hyperscaler marketplaces, the goal to hit half a billion dollars in annual contract value for its Now Assist AI product, and the push for partners to adopt an ‘AI-native’ methodology to capitalize on the fact that customers still want over 70% of AI buying to be done through partners. Key Takeaways ServiceNow is an ‘AI-native’ company, having invested in and built AI directly into its unified platform for over a decade. The company’s core value today is in its unified AI platform, single data model, and leadership in workflows that connect the entire enterprise. ServiceNow will hit $500 million in annual contract value for its Now Assist AI products by the end of 2025, making it the fastest-growing product in company history. An astonishing 87% of all ServiceNow implementations are done by its global partner ecosystem, highlighting their crucial role. The company is leveraging the half-trillion-dollar opportunity of durable cloud budgets by driving marketplace transactions and helping customers burn down cloud commits using ServiceNow solutions. To win in the AI era, partners must adopt AI internally, co-innovate on the platform, and strategically differentiate themselves to rank higher in the forthcoming agentic matching system. Key Tags: ServiceNow, AI-native platform, Now Assist, Jen Odess, partner excellence, workflow leader, AI platform for business transformation, hyperscalers, Microsoft Azure, Google Cloud, AWS, marketplace transactions, cloud commits, AIDA model, agentic matching, F-Pattern, Z-Pattern, group vice president, MSP, GSI, co-innovation, autonomous implementation, technical constraints, visual hierarchy, UX, UI, responsive design. Ultimate Partner is the independent community for technology leaders navigating the tectonic shifts in cloud, AI, marketplaces, and co-selling. Through live events, UPX membership, advisory, and the Ultimate Guide to Partnering® podcast, we help organizations align with hyperscalers, accelerate growth, and achieve their greatest results through successful partnering. Transcript: Jen Odess Audio Podcast [00:00:00] Jen Odess: The AI platform for business transformation, and I love to say to people, it sounds like a handful of cliche words that just got stacked together. The AI platform for business transformation. Yeah. We all know these words, so many companies use ’em, but it is such deliberate language and I love to explain why. [00:00:20] Vince Menzione: Welcome to, or welcome back to The Ultimate Guide to Partnering. I’m Vince Menzi on your host, and my mission is to help leaders like you achieve your greatest results through successful partnering. Today we have a special leader, Jen Odes is the GVP for Partner Excellence at ServiceNow. And joins me here in the studio in Boca Raton. [00:00:40] Vince Menzione: Jen, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Vince. It’s so great to be here. I am so thrilled to welcome you. To Boca Raton, Florida. Our podcast home look at this amazing background we have Here is this, and this is where we host our ultimate partner Winter retreat. Actually, in February, we’re gonna give that a plug. [00:00:58] Vince Menzione: Okay. I’d love to have you come back. I’d love to have an invite. And you flew in this morning from Washington DC [00:01:04] Jen Odess: I did. It was 20 degrees when I left my house this morning and this backdrop. Is definitely giving me, island South Florida like vibes. It’s fabulous. [00:01:13] Vince Menzione: And we’re gonna talk about ServiceNow. [00:01:14] Vince Menzione: And you’re also opening an office down here? We [00:01:17] Jen Odess: are [00:01:17] Vince Menzione: in West Palm Beach. Not too far from where we are. Yes. Later 2026. Yeah. I love that. And then so we’ll work on the recruiting year, but let’s dive in. Okay. So thrilled to have ServiceNow and to have you in the room. This has been an incredible time for your organization. [00:01:31] Vince Menzione: I have been watching, obviously I work with Microsoft. We’ve had Google. In the studio, Amazon onboard as well. And other than those three organizations, I can’t think of any other legacy organization that has embraced AI more succinctly than ServiceNow. And I thought we’d start there, but I really wanna spend some time getting to know you and getting to know your role, your mission, and your journey to this incredible. [00:01:57] Vince Menzione: Leadership role as a global vice president. We’ll talk about Or [00:02:01] Jen Odess: group. Group Vice president. I know it doesn’t roll off the tongue. I get it. A group vice president doesn’t roll. [00:02:05] Vince Menzione: G-V-P-G-V-P doesn’t roll off the time. And in some organizations it is global. It is in other organizations, it’s group. So let’s, you’re not [00:02:12] Jen Odess: the first to say global vice president. [00:02:14] Jen Odess: Okay. I’ll take either way. It’s fine. [00:02:15] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Yeah. And might be a promotion. Let’s talk. Let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about you and your career journey and your mission. [00:02:22] Jen Odess: Yeah, so I’ve been at ServiceNow for five years. In fact, January will be like the five year anniversary and then it will be the beginning of my sixth year. [00:02:31] Jen Odess: Amazing. And I actually got hired originally to build out the initial partner enablement function. So it didn’t really exist five years ago. There was certainly enablement that happened to Sure. All individuals that were. Using, consuming, buying ServiceNow, working with ServiceNow. But the partner enablement function from pre to post-sale, that whole life cycle didn’t exist yet. [00:02:54] Jen Odess: So that was my initial job. I got hired to run partner enablement and it before. And how big [00:02:59] Vince Menzione: was your partner organization at that point? It must have been pretty small. [00:03:01] Jen Odess: It was actually not as small as you would think. Gosh, that’s a great question. You’re challenging my memory from five years ago. [00:03:08] Jen Odess: I know that we’re over 2,500 partners today and we add hundreds every year, so it had to have been in the low one thousands. Wow. Is where we were five years ago. But the maturity of the ecosystem is grossly larger today than it was then. I can imagine. So back then there was less than 30,000 individuals that were skilled on ServiceNow to sell or solution or deliver. [00:03:34] Jen Odess: Today there’s almost a hundred thousand. Wow. So yeah that’s like the maturity in the capability within the ecosystem. But before I start on my ServiceNow and my group vice president. Which is a great role, by the way. Group Vice President. Yeah. Partner Excellence group. I’m very proud of it. [00:03:49] Jen Odess: But but let me tell you what brought me here, please. So I actually came from a partner, but not in the ServiceNow ecosystem. Okay. I won’t name the partner, but let’s just say it’s a competitor, a competitive ecosystem. And I worked for a services shop that today I would refer to as multinational. [00:04:11] Jen Odess: Kind of a boutique darling, but with over 1,500 consultants, so Okay. A behemoth as well? Yeah. Privately held. And we were a force to be reckoned with, and it was really fun. I held so many roles. I was a customer success manager. I led the data science practice at one point. I ran global alliances and partnerships. [00:04:35] Jen Odess: At one point I was the chief of staff to the CEO at the time that company was acquired. Big global si. And and then at one point I even spun off for the big global SI and helped run a culture initiative to transform co corporate culture. Wow. Very inside the whole organization. Wow. That is very, yeah. [00:04:54] Jen Odess: Really interesting set of roles. And the whole reason I came to ServiceNow is by the time I was concluding that journey in that ecosystem on the services side, I felt like. I didn’t fully understand what it meant to be on the software product side. And I often felt like I approached friction or moments of frustration and heartache with resentment for the software company. [00:05:20] Jen Odess: Sure. Or maybe just a lack of empathy for what they must be going through as well. It always felt like I was on the kind of [00:05:26] Vince Menzione: negative you were on the other side of the table. Totally. [00:05:27] Jen Odess: Yeah. And, or maybe like the redheaded stepchild kind of a concept as a partner. And so I sought out to. Learn more, which is probably a big piece of my journey is just constant curiosity. [00:05:38] Jen Odess: Nice. And I thought I think the thing I’m missing is seeing what it means firsthand to be on the software product side. And that was what led me to a career at ServiceNow. Five years strong. Yeah. So [00:05:50] Vince Menzione: talk about partner experience for those who don’t know what that means. [00:05:53] Jen Odess: Yeah. Today my role is partner excellence, but it used to be partner experience. [00:05:58] Jen Odess: Okay. And so the don’t. Yeah, that’s normal to say both things. And they actually mean two very different things. [00:06:04] Vince Menzione: Yeah, I would say so. [00:06:05] Jen Odess: And we deliberately changed the title about a year ago. So today, partner Excellence is about really ensuring that we build a vibrant AI led ecosystem. And that’s from the whole life cycle of the partner, from the day they choose to be a partner and onboard, and hopefully to the day they’re just. [00:06:23] Jen Odess: Thriving and growing like crazy, and then across the whole life cycle of the customer pre to post sale. So it’s, we are almost like the underpinning and the infras infrastructure. Someone once said it’s like we’re the insurance policy of all global partnerships and channels. That’s how we operate across global partnerships and channels and service Now. [00:06:42] Vince Menzione: And you have a very intimate relationship with those partners. We’re gonna dive in on that as well. Yes. But let’s talk about this time like no other. I talk about tectonic shifts at all of our events. People that listen to our podcasts know we talk about the acceleration of transformation, and it’s happening so fast. [00:06:58] Vince Menzione: It was happening fast even during COVID. But then. I’ll call this date or time period, the November 20, 22 time period when Chat GPT launched. Oh yeah. And that really changed the world in many respects, right? Yeah. Microsoft had already leaned in with chat, GPT, Google, we talked to Google about this. [00:07:17] Vince Menzione: Even having them in the room was like, they were caught flatfooted in a way, and they had a lot of the technology and they didn’t lean in. But it feels like ServiceNow was one of the first, certainly on the ISV side of the house and refer to the term ISV. Loosely, because hyperscalers are ISVs as well. [00:07:34] Vince Menzione: They were early to lean in and have leaned it in such a way from a business application perspective that I believe we haven’t seen embracing and infusing AI into your platform. I was hoping we could dive in a little bit on ServiceNow from a. Kinda legacy, what the organization was and is today. [00:07:56] Vince Menzione: And then also this infusion of AI into the platform. If you don’t mind, [00:07:59] Jen Odess: I love this topic. Okay. And I feel like it’s such a privilege to talk about ServiceNow on this topic because we really are a leader in the category. I’ll almost rewind back to over 20 years ago when the company was founded. [00:08:11] Jen Odess: Today, fast forward, we are so much more than an IT ticketing company. We are, [00:08:16] Vince Menzione: but that was the legacy. That’s how I knew service now 20 years ago. [00:08:19] Jen Odess: And what a beautiful legacy. Yeah. But we have expanded immensely beyond that. And that’s the beautiful story to tell customers. That’s so fun. [00:08:28] Jen Odess: But what what I love is that. So 20 years ago, that was where we started. And today, do you know that over a billion workflows are put to work every single day for our customers? A billion [00:08:38] Vince Menzione: workflows, over a billion workflows. That’s crazy. [00:08:40] Jen Odess: And 87% of all implementations for ServiceNow were done by partnerships. [00:08:46] Jen Odess: And channels. That’s fantastic. So you think about those billion plus workflows daily, all because of our partner ecosystem. This is my small plug. I’m just very proud 80, proud 86%. [00:08:56] Vince Menzione: Did you hear that? Part’s 86%. [00:08:57] Jen Odess: Amazing. And so that’s like what we’re, that’s what we’re a leader in the category. We are a leader in workflows categorically. [00:09:05] Jen Odess: But then over a decade ago, we started investing in ai. We started building it right into our platform, and this becomes the next kind of notch on our belt, which is we are a unified platform. Nothing is bolted on, nothing is just apid in. Yeah, it is a unified platform. So all of that AI that for the past decade we’ve been building in into our platform. [00:09:28] Jen Odess: Just in our AI platform, which is now what we are calling it, the AI platform. [00:09:34] Vince Menzione: And I would say that unless you were a startup starting up from scratch today and building on an LLM, we were building in a way I don’t think any other organization’s gonna actually state that [00:09:45] Jen Odess: what’s actually why we call ourselves AI native. [00:09:47] Jen Odess: Yeah, beca for that exact reason. And that’s who we’re competing with a lot these days, is the truly AI native startups where they didn’t have, the 20 years. Previously that we had, but that’s what makes us so unique in the situation, is that unified AI platform, a single data model that can connect to anything. [00:10:07] Jen Odess: And then the workflow leader. And when you put all those things together, AI plus data, plus workflows and that’s where the magic happens. Yeah. Across the enterprise. It’s pretty cool. [00:10:17] Vince Menzione: That is very cool. And you start thinking about, and we start talking about agent as a, as an example. Let’s talk about this for a second. [00:10:23] Vince Menzione: You, when what is this bolt-on, we could use the terms co-pilot, we could use Ag Agent ai, but they are generally bolted onto an existing application today. So take us through the 10 years and how it has become a portion or a significant portion. Of ServiceNow. [00:10:41] Jen Odess: When say the question a little bit more. [00:10:43] Jen Odess: Like when you say it’s, yeah, when which examples have bolted on? [00:10:47] Vince Menzione: So exa, we, what we see today is the hyperscalers coming out with their own solution sets, right? They’re taking and they’re offering it up to their ecosystem to infuse it into their product and portfolio. To me, those that look like bolted on in many respects, unless it’s an AI need as a native organization, a startup organization. [00:11:07] Vince Menzione: They’re mostly taking and re-engineering or bolting onto their existing solutions. [00:11:12] Jen Odess: I follow. Yeah. Thank you for giving me a little more context. So I call this our any problem. It’s like one of the best problems to have we can connect into. Anything, any cloud, any ai, any platform, any system, any data, any workflow, and that’s where any hyperscaler, and that’s the part that makes it so incredible. [00:11:32] Jen Odess: So your word is bolt on, and I use the word any the, any problem. Yeah. We’ve got this beautiful kind of stack visual that just, it’s like it just one on top of the other. Any. Any, and no one else can really say that. I gotta see [00:11:45] Vince Menzione: that visual. Yeah. Yeah. So talk about this a little bit more. So you’re uniquely positioned. [00:11:52] Vince Menzione: Let’s talk about how you position, you talked about being AI native. What does that imply and what does that mean in terms of the evolution of the platform? From ticketing to workflows to the business applications? What are the type of applications Yeah. Markets, industries that you’re starting to see. [00:12:08] Jen Odess: So I’ll actually answer this with, taking on a small, maybe marketing or positioning journey. So there was a time when our tagline would be The World Works with ServiceNow. There was a time when it was, we put AI to work for people and today and it, I think it was around Knowledge 2025, this came out. [00:12:28] Jen Odess: It was the AI platform for business transformation. And I love to say to people, it sounds like a handful of. Cliche words that just got stacked together. The AI platform for business transformation. Yeah. We all know these words, so many companies use ’em, but it is such deliberate language and I love to explain why. [00:12:46] Jen Odess: So the first is the AI platform is calling out that we are an AI native platform. We are a unified platform. It’s a chance to say all that goodness I already shared with you. Yeah. And the business transformation is actually telling the story of no longer being a solution. Point or no longer being an individual product that does X. [00:13:06] Jen Odess: It’s about saying. The ServiceNow platform can go north to south and east to west across your entire enterprise. Okay. Up and down the entire tech stack. Any. And then east to west, it can cut across the enterprise, the C-suite, the buying centers, all into one unified AI platform. With one data model. [00:13:26] Jen Odess: I love it. And so I love that AI platform for business transformation actually has so much purpose. [00:13:32] Vince Menzione: It does. So you’re going across the stack, so you’re going all the way from the bottom layer, all the way up to the top from the ue. Ui. And then you’re going across the organization, right? You’re going across the C-suite, you’re going across all the business functions of an organization. [00:13:46] Vince Menzione: Correct. And so the workflows are going across each of those business functions? [00:13:49] Jen Odess: Correct. And then our AI control tower is sitting at the very top, governing over all of it. [00:13:53] Vince Menzione: I love the control tower. [00:13:54] Jen Odess: I know the governance, security risk protocol, managing all the agents interoperability. Yeah. [00:14:01] Vince Menzione: And then data at the very bottom right. [00:14:03] Vince Menzione: Controlling all those elements and the governance of the data and the right, the cleanliness of the data and so on. Yeah. That’s incredible. I we could probably talk about business applications. I know one, in fact, I’ve had a person sit in this, your chair from we’ll call it a large GSIA very significant GSI one of the top five. [00:14:21] Vince Menzione: And they took ServiceNow and they applied it to their business partnering function. And they used, and we, you probably don’t know about this one, but I know that that’s a, an example of taking it and applying it all across all the workflows, across all the geographies of the organization and taking a lot of the process that was all done manually. [00:14:40] Vince Menzione: That was stove pipe business processes that were all stove piped and removing the stove pipe and making for a fluid organizational flow. [00:14:47] Jen Odess: And I’ll bet you the end user didn’t even realize ServiceNow was the backend. That’s some of the greatest examples actually. [00:14:53] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Yeah. So Jen, we work with all the hyperscalers. [00:14:56] Vince Menzione: We have a very strong relationship with Microsoft. Goes back many years, my back to my days at Microsoft and we’ve had Google in the room. We have AWS now as well. We bring them all together because we believe that partners work with, need to work with all three. And I know that you have had an interesting transformation at ServiceNow around the hyperscalers. [00:15:16] Vince Menzione: I was hoping you could dive in a little deeper with us. [00:15:19] Jen Odess: Yeah. We are so proud of our relationships with the hyperscalers, so the same three, so it’s Microsoft Azure, Google Cloud, and AWS. And really it’s it’s a strategic 360 partnership and our goal is really to drive marketplace transactions. [00:15:34] Jen Odess: So ServiceNow selling in all of their marketplaces and then. Burn down of our customers cloud commits. I love it. It’s really a beautiful story for our customers and for the hyperscalers and for ServiceNow. And so we’ve, it’s brand, it’s a brand new announcement from late in the year 2025. Love it. And we’re really excited about it. [00:15:51] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And then we, and we get all of the marketplace leaders in the room. So we’ve worked with all of those people. And one of the key points about this is there is over a half a trillion dollars in durable cloud budgets with customers that [00:16:08] Vince Menzione: Already committed to, I know, so that tam available, a half a trillion dollars is available to customers to burn down and utilize your solutions and professional services with partners as well in terms of driving a complete solution. [00:16:21] Jen Odess: That’s exactly the motion we’re pushing is to go and leverage those cloud commits to get on ServiceNow and in some cases, maybe even take out other products to go with ServiceNow and actually end up funding the transition to ServiceNow. Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:37] Vince Menzione: So you serve thousands of customers today, thousands of customers. [00:16:42] Vince Menzione: I can’t even. Fathom the exact number, but you have this partner ecosystem that you described, and their reach is even more incredible, like hundreds of thousands. Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about how you think about that, and then how do you drive the partner ecosystem in the right way to drive this partner excellence that you described. [00:17:02] Jen Odess: Yeah, that’s a great question. So yeah, thousands of ServiceNow customers and we’re barely scratching the surface in comparison to our partners customers. So we have over 2,500 partners Wow. In our ecosystem. And today they cut across what I would call five routes to market. That partners can go to market with ServiceNow. [00:17:21] Jen Odess: Okay. The first is consulting and implementation. This will be your classic kind of consulting shop or GSI approach. The second is resell, just like it sounds. Yep. [00:17:30] Vince Menzione: Transactional. [00:17:31] Jen Odess: Yep. The third is managed service provider. [00:17:33] Vince Menzione: Okay. [00:17:34] Jen Odess: The fourth is what we call build, which is. The ISV, strategic Tech partner realm, and then the fifth is hyperscaler. [00:17:43] Jen Odess: Those are the five routes to market. So partners can choose to be in one or all or two. It doesn’t matter. It’s whichever one fits the kind of business they want to go drive. Nice. Where they’re. Expertise lies. And then we’ve got partners that show up globally, partners that show up multinational and partners that show up regionally and then partners that show up locally, in country and that’s it. [00:18:06] Jen Odess: And we really want a diverse set of partners capable of delivering where any of our customers are. So it’s important that we have that dynamic ecosystem where we really push them. We’re actually trying hard to balance this. Yeah, you would’ve heard it from many of your other partners. This direct versus indirect. [00:18:24] Jen Odess: Yes. Motion. For anyone listening that doesn’t know the difference, right? Direct is ServiceNow is selling direct to a customer, there might be a partner involved influencing that will implement. Yeah, likely but ServiceNow is really driving the sale versus indirect where the whole thing routes through the partner. [00:18:39] Jen Odess: Right? Which is your classic reseller or managed service provider and often a an ISV. And you know that balance is never gonna be perfect ’cause we’re not gonna commit to go all direct or all indirect. We’re gonna continue to sit in this space where we’re trying to find a healthy balance. [00:18:56] Jen Odess: So I find a lot of our time trying to figure out how do you set all those parties up for success? Yeah. The parties are the ServiceNow field sellers? And then you’ve also got the partnerships and channels, so the ecosystem, and then you’ve got the people in global partnerships and channels. So my broader organization, and we’re all trying to figure out how to work harmoniously together and it’s a lot of, it is my job to get us there. [00:19:19] Jen Odess: And so we use lots of things like incentives and benefits and we will put in place gated entry, really strategic gated entry. What does [00:19:29] Vince Menzione: gated entry mean? [00:19:30] Jen Odess: Yeah. What I mean is if you want to have a chance at being matched with a customer Yeah. For a very specific deal. Or it’s really one of three to get matched. [00:19:41] Jen Odess: ‘Cause you can never match one-to-one. It has to be three or more. Okay. We have good compliance rules in place. Yeah. But in order to even. Like surface to the top of the list to be matched. There’s a gated entry, which is, you’ve gotta have validated practices. Okay. Which is how, it’s these various ways, as you described, you quantify and qualify the partner’s capabilities. [00:20:00] Vince Menzione: Yeah. So you have to meet these qualifications. Yes. And you could be one of three to enter and be. Potentially matched, considered significant or Yes. Match for this deal? [00:20:08] Jen Odess: Yes, that’s exactly right. So we use, various things like that. And then we try to carve what I would call dance card space reseller in commercial, try to sit here and like carve by geo, by region, by country dance card space as well to help the partners really know exactly where they can unleash versus, hey, this is the process and the rules of engagement. To go and sell alongside the direct org sales organization [00:20:33] Vince Menzione: and you’re gonna have multiple partners in the same opportunities. [00:20:37] Vince Menzione: Absolutely not. Not necessarily competing with each other. There’s three competing each with each other, but also you’re gonna have other partners that provide different capabilities as well. You might have that have some that are just transac. Those are gonna be those channel or reseller partners. [00:20:52] Vince Menzione: You might have an MSP that’s actually delivering, or at least providing some type of managed service on top of the stack. Like supporting the customer. Yeah. And then you might have an SI GSI an integration partner that’s also doing the con the consulting work around getting the solution to meet with the customer’s requirements. [00:21:12] Vince Menzione: Would you say [00:21:13] Jen Odess: so? That’s exactly right. Yeah. And actually in. AI era, we’re seeing more of it than ever. And even on the smaller deals, maybe not the GSIs on the smaller deals, but we’re seeing multiple partners come in to serve up their specific expertise, which is actually a best practice. That’s [00:21:33] Vince Menzione: terrific. [00:21:33] Jen Odess: We don’t want. If you’ve got an area that’s a blind spot and you’re a partner, but that’s something your customer is buying from you, there’s no harm in saying let’s bring in an expert in that category to deliver that piece of the business. That’s right. And we’ll maybe shadow and watch alongside. [00:21:46] Jen Odess: So we’re seeing more and more of it. And I actually think like the world of. Partnerships and ecosystems. If I go back to like my previous ecosystem as well, it’s become so much more communal than ever before. Yes. This idea that we can share and be more open and maybe even commiserate over the things, gosh, I can’t believe we have the same frustrations or we have the same. [00:22:09] Jen Odess: Wow, that’s amazing. And you’re in this country. And I’m in this country. And so we’re seeing more and more coming together on deals which I really respect a lot. ’cause So one of the new facts we’ve just learned actually, Vince, is that. Of all the ai buying that customers are doing out there, they actually still want over 70% of it to be done by partners. [00:22:32] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:22:33] Jen Odess: So even though it looks like it could be maybe set up easy configured, easy plug and play it. It to get, it’s not real ROI. You still need a partner with expertise in that industry or that domain, or in that location or in that language to come and bring the value to life. And we will certainly accelerate, help accelerate time to value with things that ServiceNow will do for our partners. [00:22:56] Jen Odess: But if over 70% is gonna go to partners and AI is so new, wouldn’t you want more than one partner Sometimes on a absolutely on a deal, at least while we’re all learning. I think we can keep ebbing and flowing [00:23:07] Vince Menzione: on this. We you, I dunno if Jay McBain, ’cause we’ve had him in the room here and he is a, he’s an analyst that does a lot of work around this topic. [00:23:14] Vince Menzione: And we talk about the seven seats at the table because there are, again, you need more you, first of all, you need to have your trusted, you need to have the organizations that you work with. And you also, in the world of ai, with all of the tectonic shifts, all the constant changing that’s going on right now, I need to make sure that I have the right. [00:23:31] Vince Menzione: People by my side that I can trust, they can help me deliver what I need to deliver. ’cause it might have changed from six months ago. And the technology is changing. Everything is changing so rapidly right now. So again, having all those right people I want to pick up on something ’cause we talked a little bit about MSPs and they’ve become a favorite topic of ours. [00:23:52] Vince Menzione: I have become acutely aware of the Ms P community recently. I kinda looked at them as well. There’s little small partners, but you’ve suggested this as well. They have regional expert, they have expertise in a specific area. And can be trusted, and maybe you’re integrating multiple solution sets for a customer. [00:24:11] Vince Menzione: But we’ve seen this MSP community become very vibrant lately, and I feel like they woke up to technology and to AI in such a big way. Can you comment on that? [00:24:20] Jen Odess: So we feel and see the same thing I’ve always valued what managed service providers bring to the table. It’s like that. [00:24:26] Jen Odess: Classic are you a transformation shop or are you a ta? The tail end or the run business shop? And so many partners are like we’re both, and I wanna be like, but are you? But now I feel like we finally are seeing the run business is so fruitful. So AI is innovating. All the time. [00:24:46] Jen Odess: We, we are innovating as a AI platform all the time. What used to be six month, every six months family releases of our software. Yeah. It became quarterly and now we’re practically seeing releases of new innovation every six to eight weeks. So why wouldn’t you want a managed service provider? Paying close attention to your whole instance on ServiceNow and taking into account all the latest innovation and building it into your existing instance, and then looking out for what new things you should be bringing in. [00:25:20] Jen Odess: So that’s the beauty of the, it’s almost partnerships, observing, and then suggesting how to keep. Doing better and more and better versus always jumping straight back to complete redesign and transformation. Yeah, and that’s one of the things I like about the MSPs in this space. [00:25:36] Vince Menzione: So let’s broaden out from this part of the conversation ’cause you’re giving specific guidance to the MSPs, but let’s think about this whole partner community. [00:25:43] Vince Menzione: And you’ve seen this transformation coming over to ServiceNow and even within ServiceNow these last five years. How do these organizations need to think differently? And how do they need to structure their services in this newent world? [00:25:58] Jen Odess: Great question. There’s really four things that I think they have to be thoughtful of. [00:26:02] Jen Odess: The first is maybe the most obvious they have to adopt AI as their own ways of doing work methodology. Delivery, whatever it is, because only through the, it’s not about taking out people in jobs, it’s about doing the job faster, right? It’s about getting the customer to value faster so that adoption of AI will make or break some partners. [00:26:24] Jen Odess: And our goal is that every partner comes on the other side of this AI journey, thriving and surviving. So we’re really pushing. This agenda. And maybe later I can talk to you a little bit more about this autonomous implementation concept. Please. ’cause I that will [00:26:37] Vince Menzione: resonate. So you’re saying they need to, we used to use the term eat their own dog food. [00:26:41] Vince Menzione: Now it’s drink your own champagne. Yeah. But they need to adopt it as well internally. [00:26:46] Jen Odess: Yeah. And I think whether they’re using, I hope they’re using ServiceNow as like a client, zero. To do some of that adoption. But there’s lots of other tools that are great AI tools that will make your job and your day-to-day life and the execution of that job easier. [00:26:59] Jen Odess: So we want them adopting all of that. The second is, we really need to see partners. Innovating on the ServiceNow platform. Yeah. And whether that’s building agents AI agents that go into the ServiceNow store, whether it’s building a really fantastic solution that we wanna joint jointly go to market with, or maybe it’s one of those embedded solutions you were commenting where the end user doesn’t even know that the backend, like a tax and audit solution that is actually just. [00:27:29] Jen Odess: The backend is all ServiceNow. Yeah. But that partner is going to market and selling it to all their customers. Exactly. So I think this co-innovation is gonna be a place that we will really win in market. The third is if a partner wants to stand out right now, they have to differentiate on paper too. [00:27:47] Jen Odess: It’s gotta like what does that mean? So if there’s 2,500 partners. And it’s not like we don’t walk around and just say, you should talk to this partner. Yeah. Or here’s my secret list. You should, we don’t do that. That’s not good business and it’s not compliant. So we have algorithms that take all the quantitative and qualitative data on our partners and they know all the data points ’cause it’s part of the partner program Nice. [00:28:10] Jen Odess: That they adhere to and then ranks them on status. And all those data points are what I’m referring to as on paper. You’ve gotta be differentiated. So whether or not you wanna be great at one thing or great across the whole thing, think about how all of those quantitative and qualitative data points are making you stand out, because that’s where those matches that I was referring to. [00:28:35] Jen Odess: Yes. That’s where that’s gonna come to life. And it’s skills, it’s capabilities. It’s deployments. So Proofpoint and deployments, customer success stories, csat, all the things. So [00:28:47] Vince Menzione: those are all the qualifi qualifiers for and more, but those are the types [00:28:49] Jen Odess: of qualifications. Yeah. [00:28:51] Vince Menzione: And then do your, does your sales organization do a match against that based on a customer’s requirements that they’re working with and who they work with and co-sell with? [00:29:00] Jen Odess: And I feel like you just lobbed me the greatest question. I didn’t even know you were gonna ask it, but I’m so glad you did. So today. Today there is something called a partner finder, which is which is nice, but it’s a little bit old school in a world of ai. Yeah. So you go to servicenow.com, you click partner from the top navigation, and then it says find a partner and you can literally type in the products you’re buying the country, you’re, that you’re headquartered out of. [00:29:26] Jen Odess: Whatever thing you’re looking for. And it will start to filter based on all those data points, the right partners, and you can actually click right there to be connected to a partner. So lead generation. Okay, interesting. But where we’re going is a agentic matching right in our CRM for the field. Oh. So those data points are gonna matter even more, and that’s where the gated. [00:29:48] Jen Odess: I say gated entry, which is probably too extreme, right? It’s really gated. If you wanna surface toward the top, there’s gated parameters to try to surface to the top, but those data points will feed the algorithm and it will genetically match right in our CRM for the field. Who are the best suited partners? [00:30:09] Jen Odess: Would you like to talk to them? [00:30:10] Vince Menzione: Okay. And so is it. Partner facing? Is it sales team facing [00:30:14] Jen Odess: Right now? It’s sales. It’ll, when it goes live, it will be sales team facing. Okay. But we have greater ambition for what partners can do with it. Yeah. Not just in the indirect motion, but also what partners may be able to do with it to interface with our field. [00:30:30] Jen Odess: The. [00:30:31] Vince Menzione: The, yeah the collaboration [00:30:33] Jen Odess: opportunity. Which is always a friction point that we’re working on [00:30:36] Vince Menzione: always because it’s very manual. It’s people intensive. Yeah. Partner development managers sitting on both sides of the equation and the interface between the sales organization and a partner organization is not always the. The easiest. So right. Automated, quite a bit of that. [00:30:49] Jen Odess: My boss is obsessed with the easy button, which I know is a phrase many of us in the US know from I think it’s an Office Depot, all these ways in which we can have easy button moments for the partner ecosystem is what we’re trying to focus on. [00:31:01] Jen Odess: I love the easy button. [00:31:02] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And I love your boss too. Yeah, he’s fabulous. Fabulous. So Michael and I go back like many years ago. You must have, [00:31:08] Jen Odess: yeah. You must have had paths crossing on numerous occasions. [00:31:12] Vince Menzione: Yeah we we worked together micro I’m going to hijack the session for a second here. [00:31:16] Vince Menzione: But when I first came to Microsoft, he was leading a, the se, a segment of the business, and he invited me to come to his event and interviewed me on stage at his event. [00:31:26] Jen Odess: No way. [00:31:26] Vince Menzione: And we got to know each other and yeah. So he was terrific. He was what a great find for, oh, he’s for service now. [00:31:32] Vince Menzione: He’s really [00:31:32] Jen Odess: has been a fantastic addition [00:31:34] Vince Menzione: to the global partnerships and channels team. And Michael, we have to have you on the podcast. Yes. Or cut down here in the studio at some point too with Jen and I. That’d be great. So this is terrific. We are getting it’s an incredible time. [00:31:44] Vince Menzione: It’s going so fast this time, 2022 was, seems like it was five, it feels like it was almost 10 years ago now. It wasn’t that we just started talking about it and you were implementing AI 10 years ago, but it wasn’t getting the attention that it’s getting today. And it really wasn’t until that moment that it really started to kick off in a way that everybody, yeah. It became pervasive overnight I would say. But now we’re starting 2026, like we’re at. This precipice of time and it’s continuing. I don’t even know what 2030 is gonna look like, right? So I’m a partner. [00:32:16] Vince Menzione: What are the one, two, or three things that I need to do now to win over and work with ServiceNow? [00:32:23] Jen Odess: One, two or three things? I’ll tell you the first thing. So today ServiceNow will end up hitting 500 million in annual contract value in our Now Assist, which is our AI products by the end of 2025, which is the fastest growing product in all of ServiceNow history. [00:32:37] Jen Odess: That’s one product that’s so there’s lots of SKUs. Yeah, but it is. It’s our AI product. Yeah. And it is, but yeah, because of all the various ways. [00:32:45] Vince Menzione: So half a billion dollars, [00:32:46] Jen Odess: half a billion by the end of 2025. And I think, someone’s gonna have to keep me honest here, but if memory serves me right, the first skews didn’t even launch until 2024. [00:32:54] Jen Odess: So we’re talking about wow, in a year it’s fast. Over 1,700 customers are live with our now assist products. Again, in a matter of, let’s call it over, a little over a year, 1,700 partners. So I think the first thing a partner needs to do is they’ve gotta get on this AI bandwagon, and they’ve gotta be selling and positioning AI use cases to their customers, because that’s the only way they’re gonna get. [00:33:20] Jen Odess: Experience and an opportunity to see what it feels like to deliver. So we have to do that. And I think you could sell a big use case like that big, we talked north, south, east, west, you could do that whole thing. Brilliant. But you could also start small. Go pick a single use case. Like a really simple example of something you wanna, some work you wanna drive productivity on. [00:33:41] Jen Odess: Yeah. And make sure you’ve got multiple stakeholders that love it and then go drive proving that use case. That’s what we’re telling a lot of partners. That’s the first thing. The second is they have got to build skills on AI and they have to keep up with it. And so we’re trying to really think about our broader learning and development team at ServiceNow is just next level. [00:34:00] Jen Odess: And they’re really re-imagining how to have more real time bite size. Training and enablement that will help individuals keep up with that pace of innovation. So individuals have got to get skilled. Yes. On AI today, of that a hundred thousand or so individuals in the ecosystem right now, about 35% of those individuals hold one or more AI credential. [00:34:25] Jen Odess: Again, that’s in a little over a year, which is the fastest growing skill development we’ve ever had, but it should be a hundred percent. Yeah. All of our goals should be that every account is being sold ai. ’cause that’s where the customer’s gonna get to value a ServiceNow is if they have the AI capabilities. [00:34:40] Jen Odess: And [00:34:41] Vince Menzione: how are you providing enablement and training? Is it all online? It’s, we have [00:34:44] Jen Odess: all sorts of ways of doing it. So that we have ServiceNow University, which is just a really robust, learning platform. Elba is our professor in residence. Very cool. Which is very cool. And they’re all content. [00:34:57] Jen Odess: Is free to partners. The training is free to partners that is on demand. Beyond that, partners can still get, instructor led training, whether that’s in person or virtual. And then my team offers enablement. That’s a little bit more, it’s like not formal training, it’s more like hands-on labs and experiences. [00:35:17] Jen Odess: We bring in lots of groups that sit around me that help and we very cool hands on with partners face-to-face. And do you do an annual event where you bring all these partners together? No, because we do we have three major milestones a year for partners. So the first is at sales kickoff, which is coming up the third week in January. [00:35:33] Jen Odess: And alongside sales kickoff is partner kickoff. Okay. And so we do a whole day of enabling them. So that’s your [00:35:39] Vince Menzione: partner kickoff? [00:35:40] Jen Odess: That’s partner kickoff. But of the, of all the partners in the ecosystem, it’s not like they can all make it. So we still also record and then live stream some of the content there. [00:35:49] Jen Odess: Then at Knowledge, there’s a whole partner track at Knowledge and same concept. Yeah, it’s like it’s all about customers and we wanna, build as much pipeline and wow as many customers as possible, but we also need to help our partners come along the journey. Then the third and final moment is in September, always, and it’s called our Global Partner Ecosystem Summit. [00:36:08] Jen Odess: We should have you, I’d love to join this next year. I love that. And it’s really, that’s the one time if sales kickoff is all about the sales motion in the field and knowledge is all about the customers and getting customers value. Global Partner Ecosystem Summit is only about the partners, what they need, why they need it, and what we’re doing to make their lives easier. [00:36:28] Jen Odess: I love it. Yeah. I’ll be there September. I love it. Dates yet set yet? I have to, it’s getting locked. I’ll get it to you. [00:36:34] Vince Menzione: Okay. All right. I’ll, we’ll be there. Okay. So you’ve been incredible. I just love having you. We could spend hours, honestly, and I want to have you back here. I’d love to, I have you back for a more meaningful conversation with the hyperscalers. [00:36:45] Vince Menzione: Talk to some of the partners that join us at Ultimate Partner events. We’ll find a way to do that, but I have this one question. It’s a favorite question of mine, and I love to ask all my guests this. Okay. You’re hosting a dinner party. And you could host a dinner party anywhere in the world. We could talk about great locations and where your favorite places are, and you can invite any three guests from the present or the past to this amazing dinner party. [00:37:11] Vince Menzione: We had one guest who wanted to do them in the future, like three people that hadn’t reached a future date. Whom would you invite Jen and why? [00:37:21] Jen Odess: Oh, first of all, you’re hitting home for me because I love to host dinner parties. I actually used to have a catering company. This is like one of those weird facts that, we didn’t talk about my pre services and ecosystem days, but I also had a catering company, so I love cooking and hosting dinner parties. [00:37:38] Jen Odess: So this is a great question. I feel like it’s a loaded question and I have to say my spouse. I love my husband dearly, but I have. To invite Lee to my dinner party. Okay. He’s in [00:37:47] Vince Menzione: Lee’s guest number one. Lee’s [00:37:49] Jen Odess: guest, number one. And the reason why is, first of all, I love him dearly, but he’s super interesting and he has such thought provoking topics to, to discuss and ways of viewing the world. [00:38:00] Jen Odess: He’s actually in security tech, so it’s like a tangential space, but not the same. [00:38:05] Vince Menzione: Yeah. But an important space right now, especially. Yeah. And [00:38:07] Jen Odess: he, yeah. And he’s, he’s just a delight to be around. So he’d be number one. Number two would be Frank Lloyd Wright. [00:38:15] Vince Menzione: Frank. Lloyd Wright. [00:38:17] Jen Odess: Yeah. I am an architecture and design junkie. [00:38:21] Jen Odess: Maybe I don’t do any of it myself, though. I dabble with friends that do it, and I try to apply it to my home life when I can. And Frank Lloyd Wright sort of embodies some of my favorite. Components of any kind of environment that you are experiencing, whether it’s a home or it’s an office building or it’s an outdoor space. [00:38:39] Jen Odess: I love the idea of minimalism and simplicity. I love the idea of monochromatic colors. I love the idea of spaces that can be used for multipurpose. And then I love the idea of the outside being in and the inside being out. I love it. So I would like love to pick his brain on some of his, how he came up with some of his ideas. [00:38:59] Jen Odess: Fascinating for some of his greatest. Yeah. Designs. Okay. That’s number two. Number three, I think it would be Pharrell Williams. Really? Yeah, I, Pharrell Williams. Yeah. I love fashion music and all things creativity. He’s got that, Annie’s philanthropic. He’s just yeah. The whole package of a good person. [00:39:26] Jen Odess: That’s super interesting and I very cool. I would love to pick his brain on what it was like to be behind the scenes on some of the fashion lines he’s collaborated with on some of his music collabs he’s had, and then just some of the work he’s doing around philanthropy. I would. I could just spend all night probably listening to him. [00:39:43] Jen Odess: This would be a [00:39:44] Vince Menzione: really cool conversation night. [00:39:45] Jen Odess: Don’t you wanna come to my dinner? Was gonna say, I’m sorry I didn’t invite you to identify. No [00:39:49] Vince Menzione: I was, can I bring dessert? [00:39:50] Jen Odess: Yeah. I come [00:39:50] Vince Menzione: for dessert. I, but it can’t, [00:39:51] Jen Odess: it has to be like a chocolate dessert. It’s gotta have [00:39:54] Vince Menzione: I love chocolate dessert. [00:39:55] Vince Menzione: Okay, great. So it would not be a problem for me, Jen. This is terrific. You have been absolutely amazing. So great to have you come here. Yeah. Such a busy time of year to have you make the trip here to Boca. We will have you back in the studio. I promise that I’ll have you back on stage. Stage. [00:40:10] Jen Odess: This is beautiful. [00:40:10] Jen Odess: Look at it. Yeah. This is [00:40:11] Vince Menzione: beautiful. And we transformed this into, to a room, basically a conference room. And then we also have our ultimate partner events. I would love to come, we would love to have you join us. Like I said, ServiceNow is such an impactful time. Your leadership in this segment market, and I wouldn’t say segment across all of AI in terms of all the use cases of AI is just so meaningful, especially for within the enterprise. [00:40:33] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Right now. So just really a jogger nut right now within the industry. So great to have you and have ServiceNow join us. So Jen, thank you so much for joining us. [00:40:42] Jen Odess: Thanks Vince. Appreciate the time. It’s a pleasure to be here. [00:40:44] Vince Menzione: Thank you very much. Thanks for tuning into this episode of Ultimate Eye to Partnering. [00:40:50] Vince Menzione: We’re bringing these episodes to you to help you level up your strategy. If you haven’t yet, now’s the time to take action and think about joining our community. We created a unique place, UPX or Ultimate partner experience. It’s more than a community. It’s your competitive edge with insider insights, real-time education, and direct access to people who are driving the ecosystem forward. [00:41:16] Vince Menzione: UPX helps you get results. And we’re just getting started as we’re taking this studio. And we’ll be hosting live stream and digital events here, including our January live stream, the Boca Winter Retreat, and more to come. So visit our website, the ultimate partner.com to learn more and join us. Now’s the time to take your partnerships to the next level.

Bucky's back and his house is still in the same place! Others have not been so lucky. It's the day before the day before and we are faced with the realization that we might actually watch the Seahawks face 44-year old Phillip Rivers in his first football game in 5 years. Can the Colts keep it close? Rivers has had just three practices and it seems like a perfect opportunity for the Seahawks defense to have another great game. :30- ICYMI: Chris Petersen The former Husky head coach joined the show earlier this week to give us his thoughts on the CFP and whether or not he'd ever coach again. :45- No Cliché Keys to Victory! The Seahawks face the Colts on Sunday, so we give our keys to a Seahawks win, no (some) cliches allowed! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bucky's back and his house is still in the same place! Others have not been so lucky. It's the day before the day before and we are faced with the realization that we might actually watch the Seahawks face 44-year old Phillip Rivers in his first football game in 5 years. Can the Colts keep it close? Rivers has had just three practices and it seems like a perfect opportunity for the Seahawks defense to have another great game. :30- ICYMI: Chris Petersen The former Husky head coach joined the show earlier this week to give us his thoughts on the CFP and whether or not he'd ever coach again. :45- No Cliché Keys to Victory! The Seahawks face the Colts on Sunday, so we give our keys to a Seahawks win, no (some) cliches allowed!

There are no NFL teams emerging as dominant yet- are we enjoying this season? We have a lot of good teams, but nobody is taking control and it's making for a very interesting last 3rd of the season. :30- ICYMI: Rick Neuheisel Selection Sunday is just two days away and we get Coach Neuheisel's thoughts on some of the possibilities for the playoffs. :45- No Cliché Keys to Victory- What will it take for the Seahawks to leave Atlanta with a W? No cliches allowed!

There are no NFL teams emerging as dominant yet- are we enjoying this season? We have a lot of good teams, but nobody is taking control and it's making for a very interesting last 3rd of the season. :30- ICYMI: Rick Neuheisel Selection Sunday is just two days away and we get Coach Neuheisel's thoughts on some of the possibilities for the playoffs. :45- No Cliché Keys to Victory- What will it take for the Seahawks to leave Atlanta with a W? No cliches allowed! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today's Sports Daily covers a sports cliché that needs to stop being used, an underused NFL statistic, NFL TV watching record likely being set on Thursday, a first place team in trouble, and a wild college footballs stat.Music written by Bill Conti & Allee Willis (Casablanca Records/Universal Music Group)  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Early morning driving struggles are real! The parity in the NFL is out of control this season. Last night the Texans beat the Bills and the defense dominated. The Bills struggles are just another example of teams playing inconsistent football and at this point, we have no idea who the great teams really are. :30- ICYMI Rick Neuheisel: we chatted with Coach on Tuesday and revisit the part of the conversation focused on the big matchups this weekend. :45- The Seahawks head to Nashville this weekend to face the Titans and we give our keys to a Seahawks victory, no cliches allowed! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Early morning driving struggles are real! The parity in the NFL is out of control this season. Last night the Texans beat the Bills and the defense dominated. The Bills struggles are just another example of teams playing inconsistent football and at this point, we have no idea who the great teams really are. :30- ICYMI Rick Neuheisel: we chatted with Coach on Tuesday and revisit the part of the conversation focused on the big matchups this weekend. :45- The Seahawks head to Nashville this weekend to face the Titans and we give our keys to a Seahawks victory, no cliches allowed!

Karen Cliche: Returning to Acting After Years Away, Industry Changes & Horror Film Stories | Reza Rifts Actress Karen Cliche (Saw, Thanksgiving) joins Keith Reza on Reza Rifts for an inspiring conversation about her return to Hollywood after taking years away to raise her daughter. Karen opens up about the massive industry changes she encountered, from social media's impact to the self-taping revolution and streaming era challenges. Karens Socials IG @karencliche ... https://www.instagram.com/karencliche/?hl=en  Chapters 00:00Introduction and Guest Introduction 05:04Career Resurgence and Personal Growth 10:06Navigating the Acting Industry 14:55Experiences with Early Roles and Collaborations 19:56The Evolution of Television and Streaming 24:59Reflections on Series and Career Challenges 29:24The Thrills of Horror: Saw and Thanksgiving 34:10Comedy: A Return to Roots 39:25Tattoos and Personal Stories 42:43Imagining an Ice Cream Flavor 44:46Advice to My Younger Self   Support the show on https://patreon.com/rezarifts61  Follow Keith on all social media platforms: FB: https://www.facebook.com/realkeithreza IG:https://www.instagram.com/keithreza  ALT IG:https://www.instagram.com/duhkeithreza  X:https://www.twitter.com/keithreza  TT:https://www.tiktok.com/keithreza  Book Keith on cameo at www.cameo.com/keithreza Check out my website for dates at https://www.keithreza.com/  Subscribe - Rate & Review on Apple Podcasts - Tell a friend :) Be a Rifter!    #KarenCliche #SawMovie #ThanksgivingHorror #HollywoodComeback #ActingCareer #HorrorFilms #StreamingEra #Motherhood #RezaRifts #Keith Reza

It's another self help book. Is this the one that will finally put you over the top, or another in a long line of endeavors that look like progress, but are really procrastination? Inner Excellence: Train Your Mind for Extraordinary Performance and the Best Possible Life By: Jim Murphy Published: 2020 360 Pages Briefly, what is this book about? As you have already gathered, this is a self-help book. One of thousands (millions?) so the point is what sets this one apart from all those other books? I'm sure it hasn't avoided all overlap, but the book does have a focus on character, and getting rid of self-centeredness that was refreshing. What's the author's angle? Jim Murphy played baseball in the minor leagues, and he was obsessed with winning. Then vision problems derailed his career, so he gave away most of his possessions and moved to the desert. Over the next five years he did nothing sports psychology, in an attempt to figure out how to compete in a way that produced calm regardless of the outcome. Something he had previously lacked. He draws explicit parallels to Thoreau: I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. He went to the desert, but the idea was similar. Of course, not everyone has the wherewithal to retreat to the desert to spend five years thinking. But potentially, if one did, it would bring some very valuable insights. Who should read this book? It's once again time to do the self-help math...

We constantly deal with racism, so it's a topic we need to tackle head on. In this hour, we revisit many of the racism dog whistles of the Left.And there are many.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The most Cliche'd thing? Is grilling cooking? Any wish? Is hoodie gate? Most popular backup? Drink or eat?