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Mastering Ecosystem Growth and AI Transformation Subscribe to our Newsletter:https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this episode, Vince Menzione sits down with Rebecca Jones, Chief Growth Officer of Bridge Partners, to deconstruct the “Power of Three” co-selling model and the shift from AI experimentation to scalable business outcomes. They explore the critical importance of customer-centricity, the role of agentic workflows in solving complex B2B problems, and why the most successful leaders prioritize progress over perfection to show momentum within weeks rather than years. From her background in the financial sector to her experience scaling with industry titans like Microsoft, Rebecca provides a masterclass on navigating the current “tectonic shifts” in technology through strategic alignment and executive commitment. Key Takeaways Bridge Partners focuses on connecting strategy to execution, boasting a 90% referral rate driven by deep expertise in product marketing and partner ecosystems. The market is shifting from mere AI “dabbling” to purposeful applications in MVP and scale, specifically through agentic AI that tackles real business problems. Success in today's landscape requires knowing your underlying value and maintaining an unwavering focus on customer-centricity. The “Power of Three” (Hyperscaler, GSI, and ISV) remains the ultimate design for go-to-market scaling, provided there is a clear joint value proposition. To show immediate momentum, new executives should focus on “quick wins” achievable within six to eight weeks rather than long-term three-year plans. Effective co-selling requires removing blockers like compensation misalignment and securing top-down executive sponsorship across all leadership silos. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. https://youtu.be/nClWjCm6S6A At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags Rebecca Jones, Bridge Partners, Chief Growth Officer, co-selling, Power of Three, Hyperscaler, GSI, ISV, SAP, Microsoft, agentic AI, AI experimentation, pipeline velocity, pre-sales workshops, account-based marketing, ABM on steroids, GTM strategy, executive sponsorship, partnership ecosystems, B2B growth, tech industry trends 2026, Ultimate Partner, Vince Menzione, orchestration, value proposition. Transcript Rebecca Jones Audio Episode [00:00:00] Rebecca Jones: Because most of the agents I’ve seen drop into um, a lot of the areas where you and I can download are features. [00:00:07] Vince Menzione: Yes, [00:00:08] Rebecca Jones: they’re really feature agents. I love where we are ’cause we’re starting to tackle real business problems. [00:00:17] Vince Menzione: We just finished Ultimate Partners Winter Retreat here in beautiful Boca to a sold out crowd. Today I’m joined by Rebecca Jones, the Chief Growth Officer of Bridge Partners for this compelling discussion. Rebecca, welcome to the podcast. [00:00:33] Rebecca Jones: Thank you, Vince. [00:00:34] Vince Menzione: I am so thrilled to have you in Boca in the studio. [00:00:37] Vince Menzione: We’ve been working together now for a couple of years. We [00:00:39] Rebecca Jones: have, [00:00:40] Vince Menzione: and yesterday we were at the Ultimate Partner live executive winter retreat here in Boca. Uh, we’re recording in late February, early March timeframe. And, uh, just it was so thrilling to have everyone in the room yesterday. [00:00:55] Rebecca Jones: Was it? I mean, the energy. [00:00:56] Rebecca Jones: It was amazing. [00:00:57] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:00:58] Rebecca Jones: it was amazing. And thank you so much for having me. I mean, Florida’s gorgeous this time of year. It’s nice to get outta Seattle. [00:01:04] Vince Menzione: Well, it’s, it’s always, I, I, we, we love Seattle. Yes, we love, we do love to be in Seattle and especially in the spring, which we’ll be there together. We’ll talk about that in a little bit, but, um. [00:01:14] Vince Menzione: This is our first time actually having an interview. I mean, we’ve had you on stage. Yes. We’ve had Bridge as a part. Bridge Partners has been a partner. It’s ultimate partner. How’s that? And, uh, you’ve led some workshops. You help organizations to be successful and I thought just like to start out like, tell us more about you. [00:01:32] Vince Menzione: Yeah, bridge Partner and your role at Bridge Partners. And, uh, just to frame, to frame the conversation today. [00:01:40] Rebecca Jones: Okay. Of course. So let me tell you a little bit about my background. Um, I’ve been in the technology industry for a few decades now, and I started within the product and go to market, side of the house. [00:01:54] Nice. [00:01:54] Rebecca Jones: And I’ve navigated across a number of functional areas. From product to partner and sales. [00:02:02] Vince Menzione: So product development, [00:02:04] Rebecca Jones: engineering, [00:02:04] Vince Menzione: product marketing. Product marketing. [00:02:05] Rebecca Jones: Product marketing. [00:02:06] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:02:07] Rebecca Jones: Yes. And so when you look back on the areas of where I focus my time, it’s really how do you help customers grow and how do you help companies grow? [00:02:17] Rebecca Jones: Um, and a lot of my background is in B2B. [00:02:20] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:02:21] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:02:21] Vince Menzione: And where’d you get your start? [00:02:23] Rebecca Jones: I started actually in the financial sector. [00:02:26] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:02:27] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, [00:02:27] Vince Menzione: very cool. That’s, well, that’s a good grounding and [00:02:30] Rebecca Jones: it’s an excellent grounding. And when you look back, and when I look back at what that provided as a foundation, it’s really the economics of a business and how do you help a business and what are the trend lines behind that by industry and and whatnot. [00:02:45] Rebecca Jones: And so I moved from that over to. More agency view, and so the real market facing view and then back inside to really look at how companies develop their products and bring ’em to market. [00:02:56] Vince Menzione: That’s an exciting, well, I think it’s exciting. I hope our listeners and viewers think it’s exciting and I know Bridge Partners because when I was at Microsoft, we worked with Bridge Partners. [00:03:06] Vince Menzione: But for the listeners and viewers that are with us today, maybe a little bit of background about the company and its, and its structure and go to market. [00:03:13] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, of course. So Bridge Partners is almost 20 years old. [00:03:18] Vince Menzione: Wow. [00:03:19] Rebecca Jones: Wow. [00:03:19] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:03:19] Rebecca Jones: Can you believe it? [00:03:20] Vince Menzione: We were newbies when I was working with you. [00:03:22] Rebecca Jones: We, we were newbies and uh, the company was really founded on the principle of how do you connect strategy to execution. [00:03:32] Rebecca Jones: And within that, our first customer was Microsoft. [00:03:36] Vince Menzione: Interesting. [00:03:37] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and that was an incredible spot to be and an incredible time to be in a company that started to evolve and grow with one of the titans in the industry. And obviously a incredible market leader in the tech industry. [00:03:56] Vince Menzione: Well, and that time 20 years ago, ’cause I was, I was along for that journey. [00:03:59] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:04:00] Vince Menzione: Uh, it was a time of tumultuous change at Microsoft. [00:04:03] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:04:04] Vince Menzione: Uh, in fact, we were talking about the, uh, entrepreneur’s dilemma earlier, uh, today, and Microsoft was going through that period where, you know, we, everyone loves Steve Bomber, but there was a time within the organization that it was stuck. [00:04:18] Rebecca Jones: Mm-hmm. [00:04:19] Vince Menzione: And it had to transform as an organization. [00:04:22] Rebecca Jones: A hundred percent. And so when you think about companies like Microsoft, it’s not only what they do, but how they bring that to market. Yep. And uh, so when you think about where Bridge Partners started and having the privilege to be in Microsoft of all places to, um, cut your teeth on you look at where we started and where we’ve grown from there. [00:04:44] Rebecca Jones: Uh, within the tech industry, we’ve worked across, um, multiple hyperscalers. We’ve worked across, uh. Really the top tier tech and telco, those top 100. Yep. And all the household names. And then throughout that, across the partner ecosystem, because you and I both know these companies grow and scale their businesses through the partner ecosystem, and so we’ve been privileged to work across. [00:05:08] Rebecca Jones: Multiple depth and breadth partners in that play. [00:05:12] Vince Menzione: And as an agency, are you more known for project management go to market? Uh, what, what are the areas and focus where the outcomes that you achieve? [00:05:21] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, so we’re known for. Being on the growth side of the house. And how I define that is you find us in marketing, but that center of gravity is in product marketing. [00:05:32] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:05:32] Rebecca Jones: And then how you scale that through partner ecosystems and then supporting that field or that sales organization. So when you think about those three pillars within the organization, that’s where you’ll find us. [00:05:43] Vince Menzione: And why would I choose Bridge Partners? [00:05:46] Rebecca Jones: Oh, well, um, based on experience. Um, and then when you think about Bridge Partners, it’s not, um, just what we do, but when you take a look at our engagements and background, we’re over 90% referral. [00:06:01] Vince Menzione: Wow. [00:06:02] Rebecca Jones: And so people take us with them and um, what I look at is have we actually moved the needle or driven the customer outcomes? And when you think about the customers that we’ve worked with and the companies in this industry. It’s quite a roster and I don’t take that lightly because if you’re going to help support these companies and help them grow, it’s a testament to how we were able to accomplish that. [00:06:27] Rebecca Jones: Because all these companies have complex enterprise organizations. Their go to market is nuanced and how they want to, and then, um, get and grow. And so these are just a couple of the different ways that we’ve been able to be successful. [00:06:42] Vince Menzione: Fantastic. You know, you’ve done workshops at our events and talked to our community about how to help them achieve their greatest results. [00:06:50] Vince Menzione: What would you say to them? Now we’re living in this time? I, I I, I said this earlier, I don’t want to use the term tectonic shifts, but I’m running out of words to describe how tumultuous this time feels right now to me. [00:07:03] Rebecca Jones: It’s interesting you say that. I was thinking about that. ’cause both you and I have been in the industry for a bit. [00:07:08] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. And, um, there’s some pattern recognition happening right now for me and how I look at the go to market and these, these points in time and the evolution and. This point in time, it is a tectonic shift. But a lot of companies have other, have had to go through these challenges before. If you think about, um, the migration to the cloud and [00:07:33] Vince Menzione: yes, [00:07:33] Rebecca Jones: all of the unlocks that it has, and at the end of the day it’s, it’s shifting and thinking about new business models and it’s shifting and thinking about go to market, but there is. [00:07:43] Rebecca Jones: There are things that ring true no matter where you are. And one of the things I’ve always taken a look at is, do you know your underlying value and relevance in market? And are you being customer centric? That never goes outta style, right? Do [00:07:58] Vince Menzione: you know your value and are you customer centric? That makes a lot of sense, right? [00:08:02] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And do they, what do you do? And, and do they, how do what, how do they answer to that question? [00:08:07] Rebecca Jones: Well, that’s a, that’s a thinking question. Yes. Right? Yes. It takes a minute to think about that. Um, where is your moment of relevance with a customer? [00:08:16] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:08:17] Rebecca Jones: Where is your moment of relevance with a customer? [00:08:19] Rebecca Jones: And when you think about your reason to exist as a business, you have a really defined ICP, an ideal customer profile, and where’s your moment of relevance and. Yes. There’s a lot happening right now, and I think also because of where we sit in the industry and being in the midst of all of these giants with incredible technology to bring to market. [00:08:44] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. We’re, we’re in the front end of this wave or the, the, the tectonic shift that you’re talking about. It’s just, you know, it’s unsettling to a certain degree, but it’s really energetic and it’s. Dynamic and, and there’s so much opportunity out there. So [00:08:59] Vince Menzione: much so, you know, you had me thinking about the $600 billion that’ll be invested this year and just in cloud infrastructure and chips, right? [00:09:08] Vince Menzione: Yeah. So data centers and chips, and talk about that being like kind of creating this wave, this huge tsunami that’s coming for the beaches and, and everything seems to be. Every week there’s a new announcement, and recently it’s been philanthropic and clawed. And yes, uh, the markets are reacting. They’re, um. [00:09:30] Vince Menzione: They’re almost, uh, imploding in some ca in some cases because they’re trying to react the financial analysts, they’re trying to react to what’s happening right now. [00:09:38] Rebecca Jones: It, the investment is massive and it’s, it’s incredible and it’s massive. And over the last year, you saw a lot of experimentation. Yeah. And you saw a lot of dabbling, a lot of, you know, quite. [00:09:52] Rebecca Jones: Frankly, a little bit of concern about is this gonna pay off? [00:09:56] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:09:57] Rebecca Jones: And when you look at where we are in this chain cycle and this adoption cycle, we’re right at the front end, the early adopters. And so a lot of the work that we’re doing, and where I’m focused on is how do you move from experimentation? To truly having some movement over into MVP and scale. [00:10:18] Rebecca Jones: And so I’ll just harken back to Yeah, [00:10:19] Vince Menzione: please. [00:10:20] Rebecca Jones: That product mindset of when you’re looking at opportunity within the business, there was a lot of, um, there was a lot of pockets of experimentation just for fun. Just for fun. And so when you look across the business, um, and what, what we observed was, um, businesses of all different sizes, experimenting and, and some were just, they’re fun, they’re dabbling, right? [00:10:45] Rebecca Jones: But it, it changed in the second half of last year, people became much more thoughtful, much more purposeful, um, thinking forward about how would this be applied to my business? Yeah, because the question now isn’t. Could we do this? It’s really, should we do this [00:11:03] Vince Menzione: right? And and there was a period of time, I don’t mean to interrupt you, but there was a period of time when we were talking about earlier in in last year, we were talking about halluc hallucinations still. [00:11:13] Vince Menzione: Yes. So there was a lack of confidence on the platform side. Yes. Microsoft had brought out. Uh, it’s copilot solutions early to market. And there was some, uh, pushback from the community saying, we’re not seeing the results of that. Yeah. From the financial community specifically. And then I think what you said is then the second half of the year things started to change. [00:11:35] Vince Menzione: There was greater confidence. The [00:11:36] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, [00:11:37] Vince Menzione: I’d say the models got better. [00:11:38] Rebecca Jones: The models got better. But when you think about innovation, that’s inherent risk, [00:11:43] Vince Menzione: right? [00:11:43] Rebecca Jones: Right. Yes. When, when you’re on an innovation curve, yes, that’s risk. And so you have to look at as any great CFO will tell you diversification innovation. [00:11:56] Rebecca Jones: When you start to look at that market landscape, you’re creating risks. Yes. So they’re investing a lot and they wanna know when the payoff is coming back into the business. Right? Or back into the market. [00:12:08] Vince Menzione: So Rebecca, where is the AI market right now? [00:12:13] Rebecca Jones: Oh, that is a tough and great question, Vince. [00:12:18] Vince Menzione: I mean, we’ve gone through it and I’ll, I’ll kind of frame this for, yes, for, for everyone, at least from my perspective of what’s happened, right? [00:12:24] Vince Menzione: So, uh, September, 2022. Chat, GBT. Yeah. So we get into chat bots or chat bot, chat bot, chat bot, chat bot the first year or so, beginning of last year, 2025. A agentic AI really starts to take hold. It’s, it becomes a new term. In fact, I don’t think we were even using the term agentic AI before the end of 24, beginning of 25. [00:12:47] Vince Menzione: And then agents have really proliferated, um, all of the marketplaces now have agents and people are developing their own agents and so on. And all the tools, like all, all the cloud tools have agent capabilities. And now, um. We’re in 2026 and we’re still in the first quarter. It feels like the agents are starting to rule the world and maybe taking over the world [00:13:10] Rebecca Jones: they might be. [00:13:11] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:13:11] Rebecca Jones: right. There is definitely a proliferation of agents and I’m anticipating a lot of consolidation of that. ’cause most of the agents I’ve seen drop into, um. A lot of the areas where you and I can download are features. [00:13:26] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:13:26] Rebecca Jones: They’re really feature agents and those will get consolidated ’cause the where we are and you ask where we are in the market. [00:13:33] Rebecca Jones: What I love. I love where we are ’cause we’re starting to tackle real business problems. And what I’m observing and what we’re working on is really helping connect back into the business to really start that transformational work. [00:13:48] Vince Menzione: So take us through that. I’d love that. I’d love, give us a scenario or [00:13:51] Rebecca Jones: give us a use case. [00:13:52] Rebecca Jones: Do this. Yeah. I think’s really great scenarios here that I can walk you through. And first and foremost it is, and I’m gonna go back and I talked about specialization in specialty areas. Yes. That’s really important. Um, we talked yesterday during the conference around, um, industry. What industry are you in? [00:14:11] Rebecca Jones: You know, I’m in tech and that’s, that’s, we know that industry, we know those business models really well. That’s extremely important. And then you move within that. And what functions do you know and functions in this, you know, order are the product marketing function, how does that work? [00:14:30] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:14:30] Rebecca Jones: How does that work in an enterprise organization or a sales function or a. [00:14:36] Rebecca Jones: Partner function. And within that, what are all the workflows? How do these teams operate together? And so that’s where that curiosity comes in of not just how you did the work. How is the work orchestrated? [00:14:49] Vince Menzione: Inter orchestration is a huge topic area. [00:14:51] Rebecca Jones: Orchestration is a huge topic. Let’s, let’s go [00:14:53] Vince Menzione: there. [00:14:54] Rebecca Jones: E Exactly. [00:14:55] Rebecca Jones: And that’s where that curiosity, you know, I was talking about pattern recognition comes in how is the work designed? And that becomes. The blueprint for how you start to think about agentic workflows. And if you don’t have a great workflow, you don’t wanna replicate that in an agent, but Exactly. You definitely need to understand that. [00:15:18] Rebecca Jones: And so why don’t I take something that, um, I think will resonate for anyone listening to this podcast, because everyone is probably looking for growth this year and wanting to accelerate [00:15:28] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:15:29] Rebecca Jones: Sales. Their pre-sales funnel. So if we just take that pre-sales motion and specifically now with where partners might play in that or where, um, technology companies might want to enable their partners better. [00:15:47] Rebecca Jones: When I start to break down a pre-sales function, you have areas within that. Whole workflow that your marketing department might be driving. They might be driving top of the funnel or or demand programs. And then as you move down the funnel, let’s call it mid funnel, that really has opportunities for partner and field sellers to come in and. [00:16:07] Rebecca Jones: You might be seen or observing that your, um, pipeline velocity is not where you want that, right? Mm-hmm. You might be, you know, as they say, stuck. Stuck. [00:16:18] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:16:19] Rebecca Jones: And so when you start to look at what agents could do within that, I’ll use a real use case, um, around pre-sales workshops. You and I are both familiar with that. [00:16:28] Vince Menzione: We, we are, we were just talking about this last night, in fact, at dinner, about pre pre-sales workshops and how this is still such a vital component, how organizations work together. [00:16:37] Rebecca Jones: Such a vital component, um, for multiple reasons, right? You get to engage directly with the customer. You get to spend time with that customer. [00:16:46] Rebecca Jones: You get to ensure you understand what are their most pressing use cases and really help them design and buy into a solution far before you get to a proposal. And quite frankly, if you do this right. You also have an adoption plan, and then think about it from other functional areas in the organization. [00:17:02] Rebecca Jones: You start to pattern match across those presale workshops. You can start to see the use cases that are most valuable in market and start to put that into your messaging. So you think about presale workshop, it’s just not the activity of having a workshop, but if you could build an agent. To really help design around partners, enabling partners to deliver better presale workshops. [00:17:27] Rebecca Jones: Interesting. And how are you ingesting information that goes into the workshop? How are you helping, um, develop materials and first drafts faster for proposals post? How are you. Data is informing this. What are you collecting and what are you providing, and then what are you delivering? If you take that one simple component in a pre-sales process, you can see where I’m going. [00:17:53] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. All of a sudden, an ecosystem starts to show up around how could you connect better back with product marketing? What are they doing? What could you inform them with, with the data that you’re bringing in? [00:18:03] Vince Menzione: Interesting. [00:18:03] Rebecca Jones: And then what are the. Deterministic pathways outside of that, that you could be informing downstream down to first, first stress faster on proposals. [00:18:13] Rebecca Jones: Are you helping those partners with an adoption plan? The service partners in there. And so that is the designer and the architect of understanding how that workflow comes to life. And then you can really start to think about the outcomes that you wanna drive. And that’s where I love to start the conversations. [00:18:31] Rebecca Jones: That shouldn’t be an afterthought. That should be where you start. [00:18:35] Vince Menzione: So how do you, how do you, how do you start with this? You gave me a great example, but how do you apply this in the business? Like what do you take when you meet with a client to talk about pre-sales workshops as an example? [00:18:47] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:18:47] Vince Menzione: You take a proforma of what a pre-sales workshop would look like. [00:18:51] Vince Menzione: I’m, I’m, I. I might be wrong on this, but you have, like, you, you now have, uh, AI or AI that they go out and pull the data that you would normally ask maybe in some, some, uh, process, uh, information flow process that we grab and, and pull this into the, to the, to the form. The [00:19:10] Rebecca Jones: first question I always ask is, why. [00:19:12] Rebecca Jones: Why is this so important and valuable? I might have an assumption why, based on my experience, but I want the facts, right? I wanna know how they’re measuring it today, so we have a baseline and I wanna understand what their goals are. [00:19:28] Vince Menzione: Okay? [00:19:29] Rebecca Jones: Are they looking to increase revenue? X percentage. Uh, how many deals are they anticipating? [00:19:38] Rebecca Jones: How many presale workshops do they typically deliver through partner a year? Are they looking to scale that? Probably, yes. Are they looking to increase the value that they’re getting into contract post presale workshop? Probably yes. But I want that empirical data. And then I also wanna know where are they storing that? [00:19:57] Rebecca Jones: Where are they sourcing that? And so it, it really. The question and the question set really is understanding the business outcomes and the why. I, I ask a lot of why, and it really helps you frame in what would be the best outcome or the best solution, and then where do you start? Because there’s a lot of appetite for a. [00:20:21] Rebecca Jones: A transformational workflow from A to Z. And that’s a hard place to, [00:20:26] Vince Menzione: it’s hard show momentum. It’s hard. It’s hard, [00:20:27] Rebecca Jones: right? [00:20:27] Vince Menzione: It’s, it’s hard to document your current workflow flows. [00:20:30] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:20:30] Vince Menzione: Let alone come back and do this ally. [00:20:33] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:20:34] Vince Menzione: And create the best outcomes. [00:20:36] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:20:36] Vince Menzione: So I go back to this and I go, well, what, what creates the best outcomes? [00:20:39] Vince Menzione: Where the customer signs at the dotted line, and then how do you work back from that to the pre-sales workshop? Is that how [00:20:46] Rebecca Jones: you do it? A hundred percent. It’s a hundred percent. And then where do you start? How do you show, um, progress, not perfection. And so in this world, there’s a lot of, um, pressure. To show progress, outcomes, momentum. [00:21:00] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. And these very significant investments that are being made. And so how do you get them to quick wins? And so you know this, for any new executive coming into role, what are your quick wins? Yes. Right? Yes. You need to transform an organization, you need to transform a function. How do you set them up for success? [00:21:19] Rebecca Jones: And that’s always in my mind, that’s always in the mind of. The bridge partners, leaders of how do you set this leader up for success? And it’s that point between strategy and execution. How do you help them show quick wins? And so I broke you down that process. Yep. Of how would you think about in that use case, how to bring that back and help them show quick wins? [00:21:42] Rebecca Jones: Not in six months or a year, but in six weeks to eight weeks. How do you, how do you get them on that journey and then help them build to that next slide. And [00:21:51] Vince Menzione: in fact, that’s how you, you, you’ve made your, your name or your fame in the industry is really coming in and helping some of these executives, especially when they’re newer in role. [00:22:00] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:22:00] Vince Menzione: And those of us who’ve been around the Microsoft ecosystem know this well. Like you get asked day one, what’s your plan? The, while the fire, while the fire hose is blowing in your face at a hundred, a hundred miles an hour? Uh, what’s your plan? [00:22:14] Rebecca Jones: What’s your plan? What’s your [00:22:14] Vince Menzione: plan? [00:22:15] Rebecca Jones: What is your plan? [00:22:16] Vince Menzione: Yeah, yeah. [00:22:16] Vince Menzione: And then you have to show some measurable results fairly quickly. [00:22:19] Rebecca Jones: You have to [00:22:20] Vince Menzione: because you’re asked to get up in front of everyone. Yeah. Very soon. [00:22:23] Rebecca Jones: And that’s a blueprint that we have. We have, it’s a quick win. And when you think about all of these organizations that we’ve worked with, um, speed to market is a value signal. [00:22:36] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:22:36] Rebecca Jones: Right? And that speed and quality. Where are you willing to take the risk? Where are you willing to fail fast? And what outcomes are non-negotiable and what are, and so when you look at that, there’s, there’s conversations that need to be had on. And being able to filter out the noise to get down to what’s really gonna move the needle, um, for our clients and for the executives that we work with. [00:23:06] Rebecca Jones: So they can show momentum and progress quickly. And then we talked a lot about it. We don’t do three year plans, right? We’re gonna help you show progress in months, [00:23:16] Vince Menzione: nice. [00:23:17] Rebecca Jones: And in quarters, right? It’s not, um, 10 years. [00:23:19] Vince Menzione: Can anybody even have a three year plan anymore? [00:23:22] Rebecca Jones: Who’s got one? [00:23:23] Vince Menzione: I’d love to spend some time on co-selling with you. [00:23:25] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Just because I know this was a topic that came up one of our workshops in the Yeah. We hosted, yes. Last year we hosted a session. With another partner. Bridge Partners. [00:23:34] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:23:35] Vince Menzione: And you talked about the power of three and I know you’ve published some information about the power of three. I thought maybe we’d talk about that. [00:23:41] Vince Menzione: ’cause I think that is fascinating and it seems very relevant even in yesterday’s conversation. Uh, there was a conversation about another partner, uh, that is looking to build an ecosystem that hasn’t really thought about building out an ecosystem before, as an example. And this, this, I think is some of the work that you do really applies against this. [00:24:01] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. This, I mean, it, it’s a hot topic, right? Yeah. Power of three, which fits under the umbrella of co-sell Yes. And co-selling. And everyone has a slightly different definition, so I’ll define where we play. Good in there. Um, and then I’ll talk to you about the power of three, um, because that’s one of. Um, I’ll call it the scenarios under co-selling. [00:24:23] Rebecca Jones: Yes. And it’s a very popular one. It [00:24:24] Vince Menzione: is pop Well, it is for v various reasons too because, and I’ll just set the context for this. We were used to co-selling being a technology organization and a and a hyperscaler, like a Microsoft. [00:24:37] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:24:37] Vince Menzione: Going to do something together and driving direct output or sales. Now we have finally seen where marketplaces, which has become the co-sell engine, have now enabled the channel. [00:24:49] Vince Menzione: Um, the reseller enabled, uh, offers now to now, uh, operate on behalf of, and so at least in that case, that’s three right there. Now, there might be more than just three. We talk about the seven seats of the table, but the power of three is palpable right now. [00:25:04] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. Let me tell you about that concept of the power of three. [00:25:07] Rebecca Jones: ’cause when you think about the classic one [00:25:10] Vince Menzione: yeah, [00:25:10] Rebecca Jones: it’s a hyperscaler. [00:25:11] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:25:12] Rebecca Jones: A GSI. And then an ISB. [00:25:15] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:25:15] Rebecca Jones: Right? [00:25:16] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:25:16] Rebecca Jones: I mean that’s the, that’s the power, the powerful power, the three three, [00:25:19] Vince Menzione: the three giants in the [00:25:20] Rebecca Jones: room. The three giants. Yeah. And that’s rarefied air. [00:25:24] Vince Menzione: It is [00:25:25] Rebecca Jones: very [00:25:26] Vince Menzione: verified air. It’s, [00:25:26] Rebecca Jones: yeah. Right. And, uh, we do, we have a published article on that, um, and running a power three with SAP, uh, and it is, um, it changes the dynamics. [00:25:41] Rebecca Jones: Of how companies are gonna scale and grow in this market, right? [00:25:46] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:25:46] Rebecca Jones: Because we know, um, that what got you to this point? Is likely not gonna get you to that next stage of growth. And all the conversations around the platform play is the partner ecosystem, right? And I look at the opportunity, not just with the power through, I’m gonna talk to you a little bit more about that story and what we’re doing there and how we’re looking at that. [00:26:12] Rebecca Jones: Um, but it is the ultimate. Design for your go to market. Yeah. When you think about how partners and the various types of partners can help you scale, but you need to know what you need. You absolutely need to know, [00:26:29] Vince Menzione: yeah. [00:26:30] Rebecca Jones: What are you trying to achieve in your go to market and what’s missing? [00:26:34] Vince Menzione: What are the gaps? [00:26:34] Vince Menzione: Gaps? [00:26:35] Rebecca Jones: What are the gaps? Are the gaps before you apply? Yes. The power of three, or I’ll talk to you about a couple other use cases within that. So the power of three. Has long been on everybody’s, you know, can, can we get this done right? Can you pattern match the customer set? I’ll often refer to it as a BM on steroids, account-based marketing and on steroids. [00:26:59] Rebecca Jones: Can you pattern match, um, the, the hyperscaler, let’s just use Microsoft in this scenario, the, the. High potential customers of Microsoft Joint with SAP joint, with A GSI. And the more specialized and specific you get in there, it’s not just any, because think about the size of these, you know, companies. Yeah, right. [00:27:24] Rebecca Jones: Then you start to look at, well, let’s get a little bit more specific on these product sets, these industries, these use cases. And then you start to refine that where you can start to identify your greatest opportunity for growth. So that’s the first stage of that. And it is, you know, we, we think about where is that overlap and where is that opportunity, but how do you activate that? [00:27:51] Vince Menzione: And it’s complex because, uh, as you, as you mentioned those three. Organizations, each of them have different go to markets. [00:27:59] Rebecca Jones: They do, [00:27:59] Vince Menzione: they have different, a different mapping of their geographies and their ideal customer profiles. [00:28:05] Rebecca Jones: Mm-hmm. [00:28:06] Vince Menzione: Um, and they, yeah, and they apply different tactics and selling tactics and channel tactics and so on that you have to layer in or you have to take into account when you build this. [00:28:15] Vince Menzione: And SAP’s a very different go-to market motion than a Microsoft, than a, than a, an EY or any name the GSI percent. Yeah. [00:28:23] Rebecca Jones: And so that is why not only is it, um, complex from a. Sharing and figuring out what data you’re going to share. Yeah. But how do you activate it? How [00:28:35] Vince Menzione: do you activate it? [00:28:36] Rebecca Jones: And uh, and that is what all companies are striving to do. [00:28:41] Rebecca Jones: Who are you gonna go to market with? Yeah. What is your best play in the industry? And so I, you know, while this one. There’s very few companies that are gonna be able to activate directly with the hyperscaler, right? Yes. Uh, Microsoft AWS or Google. Um, but there are ways in which you can apply this strategy no matter the size of your organization. [00:29:05] Rebecca Jones: And so when you think about. The power of three. It could be any combination. You are the designer, you are the decider of who is in your power of three. And when you start to kind of unpack that a little bit, it could be Microsoft, SAPN one ISV, or it could be a combination of complementary I ISVs that unlock a play. [00:29:28] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. [00:29:29] Rebecca Jones: Like migration to the cloud. [00:29:31] Vince Menzione: Right. [00:29:31] Rebecca Jones: Like it, it could be [00:29:33] Vince Menzione: backup and recovery. I could rattle off the different types of solutions. Yeah. [00:29:37] Rebecca Jones: What is, where are you seeing the greatest opportunity to scale and what ISVs could come in to help you do that? So when you extract that from the power of three, the classic power of three of Costone, you brought that down to, you know, how do you think about that in the masses of marketplace? [00:29:56] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. Or partners of any size. I like to bring this back to. Where do you believe your greatest opportunity is? Do you have, um, opportunity or weakness in your portfolio, your product set? Could a partner come in and help augment that? Do you have a tech platform and you need a services arm to help extend that? [00:30:19] Rebecca Jones: I I mean the, it it, the world’s your oyster. Yeah. You get to kit this together any way you need and then. The power of bringing these companies together. And you and I both know, and that was much of the conversation yesterday, is, um, the greater goodness of companies coming together Yes. To compliment one another to solve a customer problem. [00:30:39] Vince Menzione: How do you take it from concept to execution? Because to me, that’s. Especially when you’re talking about not just one organization like a micro, you’re working with a Microsoft or an SAP, but you’re layering in three types of organizations and you’re going across different sales motions. How do you get them all? [00:30:58] Vince Menzione: How do you get them all aligned in working together the right way? [00:31:02] Rebecca Jones: Magic. Magic. [00:31:03] Vince Menzione: Okay. [00:31:04] Rebecca Jones: I’m kidding. [00:31:04] Vince Menzione: Call bridge, call Rebecca [00:31:07] Rebecca Jones: Magic. [00:31:07] Vince Menzione: Nine nine nine five five five five. [00:31:09] Rebecca Jones: Let, let, let me, uh, let me talk about that because [00:31:13] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:31:13] Rebecca Jones: it’s one, there’s the good work, there’s the good thought work and the strategy of how to ensure you’re, you’re pointing and you’ve got the team lined up, right? [00:31:22] Rebecca Jones: Right. And the players lined up. But activation of that. Oh, [00:31:28] Vince Menzione: massive work. [00:31:29] Rebecca Jones: It’s massive work. Yeah. And it’s not a set it and forget it. [00:31:33] Vince Menzione: Right, [00:31:34] Rebecca Jones: right, [00:31:34] Vince Menzione: right. [00:31:35] Rebecca Jones: And when you think about the alignment, and you talked about we, we’ve got different fiscal year ends and we’ve got different sales and center plans. I will talk about a few things. [00:31:45] Rebecca Jones: One, executive sponsorship, top down. [00:31:48] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:31:48] Rebecca Jones: Right. Um, ensuring, you know, compensation. You gotta get rid of the blockers and the barriers. [00:31:55] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:31:56] Rebecca Jones: And you have to make it easy and you have to create that space because it’s really, and I’ll talk to you about some of the platforms and technology behind it, but it’s humans working together. [00:32:07] Rebecca Jones: There’s a lot of power in what we’re able to do now with, um, part tech platforms and with agentic solutions. And how do you automate this and how do you bring more power and visibility? Better than ever and, and more than ever. But at the end of the day, we’re activating teams. Across companies. Yep. To work together to bring this together. [00:32:34] Rebecca Jones: And there are playbooks, um, and any, there’s great playbooks out there, but you need to activate that. [00:32:41] Vince Menzione: You need to activate it. And you, you said you gotta get the executive commitment at the top? [00:32:45] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:32:46] Vince Menzione: Not just at the CEO level, but across the leadership team. That’s right. In every silo. Uh, you’ve gotta get, uh, the organization, you have to get compensation taken care of because those, those can be blockers, those could be real blockers from getting the results you want to get. [00:33:00] Vince Menzione: And then you gotta get activation. [00:33:03] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:33:03] Vince Menzione: Right? [00:33:04] Rebecca Jones: You gotta get activation and you have to be really clear on how you’re gonna activate what’s gonna move the needle. And you have to be ready to test, learn, optimize, and you need to put those into sprints. So I’ll give some examples around that. [00:33:20] Vince Menzione: Please do take us through the sprints. [00:33:21] Vince Menzione: ’cause this is, this is getting beyond the theory now. This is what I really wanted to capture with you. Take us through it. [00:33:28] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:33:28] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:33:29] Rebecca Jones: So let’s just say we’ve got, we’ve got a power of three. [00:33:32] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:33:32] Rebecca Jones: You know, um, ready to roll and, and we’ve picked our industry and we have our use case. Um, between the three of us, the three players, you’re gonna start by allowing someone, and in this case it’s been Bridge Partners to really ensure we have a joint value prop, um, proposition for that end customer. [00:33:54] Rebecca Jones: Mm-hmm. And, you know, you gotta take a little ego out of the room. Typically on the power of three, you’ve got the leading companies coming in. But at the end of the day, if you’ve done this right, it’s, it’s customer first. It’s what’s gonna help solve this customer pain point in that language. And then when you think about activation, it’s who’s, who’s in role first? [00:34:20] Rebecca Jones: Right. And who’s taking point in these customer conversations. Right. Okay. And that is really, really, that’s important. Important. That is important. Who has the relationship? Yeah. Who is going to take lead and who’s gonna follow? And it gets all the way down to whose paper. Is this on? And that’s, that’s sometimes hard. [00:34:41] Rebecca Jones: You’ve got three players in the room, but it’s incredibly important to have those conversations and ensure that this is really end state for the customer. Yeah. So really going through roles and responsibilities and how are we gonna architect this for the customer’s success. Yeah. So that is a critical component of the playbook and then understanding. [00:35:02] Rebecca Jones: Where and what programs are we gonna drive, and then who’s taking what actions. And so I, I mentioned a BM on steroids a little before. Yes. There’s amazing things that you can be doing in market, [00:35:14] Vince Menzione: account-based marketing, [00:35:15] Rebecca Jones: m account-based based marketing, you dunno. Um, account-based marketing and there are some amazing things. [00:35:20] Rebecca Jones: Really truly connected sales and marketing, in this case. Connected sales, marketing and partner. Yeah. And how do you activate these partners together? [00:35:27] Vince Menzione: You used the term part tech, which. Not everyone understands partner technologies. Yes. Organizations like Partner Tap, work Span. Yeah. Tackle. [00:35:37] Rebecca Jones: Structured. Yeah. [00:35:38] Vince Menzione: Structured. If you, these are companies that help with co-selling methodologies, marketplace methodologies. [00:35:44] Rebecca Jones: Yes. [00:35:45] Vince Menzione: Or combining all of those, [00:35:46] Rebecca Jones: if you know, uh, J McBain, uh. Beautiful visual flat map of, um, it looks a little, the 28 moments. Yes. I was just, well, the 28 moments and he’s got the part tech landscape. [00:35:59] Vince Menzione: Oh, [00:35:59] Rebecca Jones: the islands. The islands. [00:36:00] Vince Menzione: Yes. The islands. [00:36:00] Rebecca Jones: Yes, we got it. But there are part tech solutions that support [00:36:03] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:36:03] Rebecca Jones: Partner programs, co-sell programs, partner marketing, you know. Yes. And really help to automate a lot of those processes. [00:36:11] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:36:12] Rebecca Jones: Um, and a lot of those programs. [00:36:13] Vince Menzione: So Rebecca is such a great conversation today. [00:36:16] Vince Menzione: I mean, we can go. Thank you so deep on this. [00:36:18] Rebecca Jones: I know. [00:36:18] Vince Menzione: Which means that we’re all gonna have to be back together in Redmond. You live in the Seattle area? I do. And you’ll be with us. Um, we’ll be hosting the Ultimate Partner, live in, uh, may, May 11th to the 13th. If you’re marking your calendar as listeners and friends, uh, and you’ll be there and. [00:36:36] Vince Menzione: Probably driving some more of this conversation in a workshop format, I hope. [00:36:41] Rebecca Jones: I hope so too. Yeah, it was really rewarding last year. I mean, there’s nothing more powerful to be in the room with partners because the partners are frontline to customers. [00:36:51] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:36:51] Rebecca Jones: And understanding what they’re seeing and hearing. [00:36:53] Rebecca Jones: And I always think voice of the customer is your ultimate signal. Yeah. So I can’t wait to be there. [00:36:58] Vince Menzione: Very cool. And I have a favorite question I ask all of my guests now. Uh, it is a favorite of mine. You are hosting a dinner party and you can choose where in the world you wanna host this dinner party, and you can invite only three guests, though from the present or the past to this amazing dinner party. [00:37:18] Vince Menzione: Whom would you invite Rebecca and why? And why? [00:37:22] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. Yeah. I’d, um, this is such a great question. I think on every single day I’d have a different collection of folks that I’d want at my home. Uh, I’ve had dinner at some amazing places for me. I would love to host this at my home. [00:37:38] Vince Menzione: Very cool, very [00:37:39] Rebecca Jones: cool. Uh, and the people that I would want there for this particular dinner party, I’m gonna pick, um, three iconic women. [00:37:51] Rebecca Jones: Coco Chanel, [00:37:52] Vince Menzione: Coco Chanel very cool [00:37:54] Rebecca Jones: designer. [00:37:55] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:37:56] Rebecca Jones: Um, really changed how women thought about an identity and wardrobe. Um, I would invite Georgia O’Keefe. Wow. She’s my favorite artist. [00:38:07] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:38:08] Rebecca Jones: Um, she is one of my favorite artists. Uh, I’m, uh, art and history background. And, uh, [00:38:16] Vince Menzione: that explains, [00:38:17] Rebecca Jones: that, explains that, um, a really interesting perspective. [00:38:22] Rebecca Jones: I love her view on landscapes and. She, [00:38:26] Vince Menzione: that’s why I know her as, you know, landscapes [00:38:28] Rebecca Jones: a landscape artist, um, and much more behind that. And then I would bring one of my favorite authors in, who’s Tony Morrison? [00:38:36] Vince Menzione: Tony [00:38:37] Rebecca Jones: Morrison. [00:38:38] Vince Menzione: I don’t know Tony Morrison. [00:38:39] Rebecca Jones: Oh, um, I would, beloved is her book and Oh, yes. When you think about. [00:38:45] Rebecca Jones: Um, and this is really my passion, my background in art and literature and design, and to have three, three women there, that voice of Tony Morrison, you’ve put that book on your list. Okay. It, it, it changed my life. Uh, and, um, Coco Chanel and, um, Giorgio O’Keefe, I think it would be a really interesting conversation. [00:39:07] Rebecca Jones: I love very cool trailblazers, women who really helped. I don’t know how much they recognize how much they really changed the narrative for other women, um, in their fields and together. But I think it’d be a really fun evening. [00:39:23] Vince Menzione: Very different. Very different. Uh, I was, I know a little bit about Cocoa Chanel ’cause my mom was always in the beauty and fashion industry. [00:39:31] Vince Menzione: So as a kid growing up, I mean her shoe was iconic. [00:39:34] Rebecca Jones: Yeah. [00:39:34] Vince Menzione: Iconic. Chanels an iconic brand was iconic. And, and she was a, wasn’t she a survivor of the. Of, uh, Nazi Germany maybe or something. There’s some, there’s some background or there’s [00:39:44] Rebecca Jones: some background. Flee. Flee [00:39:45] Vince Menzione: Nazi Germany [00:39:46] Rebecca Jones: or something. And what she’s really known for is, um, well many things, but yes, as a designer, really changing the tone and temperature Yes. [00:39:56] Rebecca Jones: Of um. How, you know, fashion and female identity. I think she, um, created the, what everybody knows is the little black dress and really got all that more structured and more modern look and feel of how to, how to wear and just really created a powerful path. [00:40:14] Vince Menzione: Very cool. Yeah. Very cool. [00:40:15] Rebecca Jones: So that’s who I’d have it, this one. [00:40:16] Vince Menzione: That will be a funer. [00:40:17] Rebecca Jones: Next time I’m on your podcast, I’d have a whole new crew. [00:40:21] Vince Menzione: Okay. Well I might. Bring dessert. If you don’t mind, I might bring a little, maybe a little chocolates I think maybe might be very appropriate would for this group and just maybe pop in for a few minutes. [00:40:29] Rebecca Jones: That would be great. [00:40:30] Vince Menzione: Because I don’t wanna inter interrupt the flow my, because this is be a great conversation. Oh my, [00:40:33] no, [00:40:33] Rebecca Jones: you would, I think you’d have a ball. [00:40:34] Vince Menzione: Okay. I, [00:40:35] Rebecca Jones: I mean, I know how close you were to your mother. [00:40:37] Vince Menzione: I am. [00:40:37] Rebecca Jones: And so, yeah. [00:40:39] Vince Menzione: So, um, this isn’t, again, I use this tumultuous term, but we are living in interesting times right now. [00:40:47] Rebecca Jones: We are. [00:40:47] Vince Menzione: And for all of our viewers and listeners. What is your advice to them? What is the one thing you would say? We’re in the first quarter of 2026. Yeah. This ball is moving fast or this puck is moving fast. Yeah. If you were a hockey player, um, what would you say to us now? What, what, what is the one thing you would go do if you’re not doing it now that you should be doing? [00:41:11] Rebecca Jones: Take a moment. Take a moment. As leaders. Your company and your organizations are looking for clarity. They’re looking for a path forward, and there’s a lot of energy out there, which is very exciting, but it can be also very distracting. [00:41:30] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:41:31] Rebecca Jones: So hold some confidence and clarity for your organization and figure out where you need to be and where you’re going. [00:41:39] Rebecca Jones: That’ll help set your strategy, and this will all come into view. And so what I look to is how do we help enable the organization to grow? And by doing that, you ha you have to put the oxygen mask on yourself. Yeah. Take a moment. [00:41:53] Vince Menzione: Pause. [00:41:55] Rebecca Jones: Pause. Reflect, reflect. I told you I walked down to the beach this morning. [00:41:59] Rebecca Jones: It’s a great moment. Take a moment for yourself. It’s not passing you by. We’re just getting started. [00:42:06] Vince Menzione: Did you hear that? My friends and listeners? Take a moment. And so great to have you here in the room. Yeah. [00:42:13] Rebecca Jones: Thank you so [00:42:14] Vince Menzione: much. Thank you. And I want to thank our listeners, our viewers, for following along, ultimate Guide to Partnering and our YouTube channel Ultimate Partner. [00:42:23] Vince Menzione: And please, please, please come join us. We have an incredible year ahead. This was our event, number one of five. And Ultimate partner Live will be in Bellevue on the 11th through the 13th of May. [00:42:36] Rebecca Jones: Yeah, I’ll [00:42:36] Vince Menzione: see. You’ll see you there. Rebecca will be there. It’s [00:42:38] Rebecca Jones: in my backyard. [00:42:39] Vince Menzione: It’s in your backyard. And we are gonna have incredible leaders in the room. [00:42:42] Vince Menzione: So thank you for watching. Thank you for listening to The Ultimate Guide to Partnering. [00:42:47] Rebecca Jones: Don’t forget, ultimate Partner Live is coming [00:42:50] Vince Menzione: soon, May 11th through the 13th in beautiful Bellevue, Washington. I hope to see you there.s I, as I wrap up here, I just wanna make sure that what, where

Join Kyle, Nader, Vibhu, and swyx live at NVIDIA GTC next week!Now that AIE Europe tix are ~sold out, our attention turns to Miami and World's Fair!The definitive AI Accelerator chip company has more than 10xed this AI Summer:And is now a $4.4 trillion megacorp… that is somehow still moving like a startup. We are blessed to have a unique relationship with our first ever NVIDIA guests: Kyle Kranen who gave a great inference keynote at the first World's Fair and is one of the leading architects of NVIDIA Dynamo (a Datacenter scale inference framework supporting SGLang, TRT-LLM, vLLM), and Nader Khalil, a friend of swyx from our days in Celo in The Arena, who has been drawing developers at GTC since before they were even a glimmer in the eye of NVIDIA:Nader discusses how NVIDIA Brev has drastically reduced the barriers to entry for developers to get a top of the line GPU up and running, and Kyle explains NVIDIA Dynamo as a data center scale inference engine that optimizes serving by scaling out, leveraging techniques like prefill/decode disaggregation, scheduling, and Kubernetes-based orchestration, framed around cost, latency, and quality tradeoffs. We also dive into Jensen's “SOL” (Speed of Light) first-principles urgency concept, long-context limits and model/hardware co-design, internal model APIs (https://build.nvidia.com), and upcoming Dynamo and agent sessions at GTC.Full Video pod on YouTubeTimestamps00:00 Agent Security Basics00:39 Podcast Welcome and Guests07:19 Acquisition and DevEx Shift13:48 SOL Culture and Dynamo Setup27:38 Why Scale Out Wins29:02 Scale Up Limits Explained30:24 From Laptop to Multi Node33:07 Cost Quality Latency Tradeoffs38:42 Disaggregation Prefill vs Decode41:05 Kubernetes Scaling with Grove43:20 Context Length and Co Design57:34 Security Meets Agents58:01 Agent Permissions Model59:10 Build Nvidia Inference Gateway01:01:52 Hackathons And Autonomy Dreams01:10:26 Local GPUs And Scaling Inference01:15:31 Long Running Agents And SF ReflectionsTranscriptAgent Security BasicsNader: Agents can do three things. They can access your files, they can access the internet, and then now they can write custom code and execute it. You literally only let an agent do two of those three things. If you can access your files and you can write custom code, you don't want internet access because that's one to see full vulnerability, right?If you have access to internet and your file system, you should know the full scope of what that agent's capable of doing. Otherwise, now we can get injected or something that can happen. And so that's a lot of what we've been thinking about is like, you know, how do we both enable this because it's clearly the future.But then also, you know, what, what are these enforcement points that we can start to like protect?swyx: All right.Podcast Welcome and Guestsswyx: Welcome to the Lean Space podcast in the Chromo studio. Welcome to all the guests here. Uh, we are back with our guest host Viu. Welcome. Good to have you back. And our friends, uh, Netter and Kyle from Nvidia. Welcome.Kyle: Yeah, thanks for having us.swyx: Yeah, thank you. Actually, I don't even know your titles.Uh, I know you're like architect something of Dynamo.Kyle: Yeah. I, I'm one of the engineering leaders [00:01:00] and a architects of Dynamo.swyx: And you're director of something and developers, developer tech.Nader: Yeah.swyx: You're the developers, developers, developers guy at nvidia,Nader: open source agent marketing, brev,swyx: and likeNader: Devrel tools and stuff.swyx: Yeah. BeenNader: the focus.swyx: And we're, we're kind of recording this ahead of Nvidia, GTC, which is coming to town, uh, again, uh, or taking over town, uh, which, uh, which we'll all be at. Um, and we'll talk a little bit about your sessions and stuff. Yeah.Nader: We're super excited for it.GTC Booth Stunt Storiesswyx: One of my favorite memories for Nader, like you always do like marketing stunts and like while you were at Rev, you like had this surfboard that you like, went down to GTC with and like, NA Nvidia apparently, like did so much that they bought you.Like what, what was that like? What was that?Nader: Yeah. Yeah, we, we, um. Our logo was a chaka. We, we, uh, we were always just kind of like trying to keep true to who we were. I think, you know, some stuff, startups, you're like trying to pretend that you're a bigger, more mature company than you are. And it was actually Evan Conrad from SF Compute who was just like, you guys are like previousswyx: guest.Yeah.Nader: Amazing. Oh, really? Amazing. Yeah. He was just like, guys, you're two dudes in the room. Why are you [00:02:00] pretending that you're not? Uh, and so then we were like, okay, let's make the logo a shaka. We brought surfboards to our booth to GTC and the energy was great. Yeah. Some palm trees too. They,Kyle: they actually poked out over like the, the walls so you could, you could see the bread booth.Oh, that's so funny. AndNader: no one else,Kyle: just from very far away.Nader: Oh, so you remember it backKyle: then? Yeah I remember it pre-acquisition. I was like, oh, those guys look cool,Nader: dude. That makes sense. ‘cause uh, we, so we signed up really last minute, and so we had the last booth. It was all the way in the corner. And so I was, I was worried that no one was gonna come.So that's why we had like the palm trees. We really came in with the surfboards. We even had one of our investors bring her dog and then she was just like walking the dog around to try to like, bring energy towards our booth. Yeah.swyx: Steph.Kyle: Yeah. Yeah, she's the best,swyx: you know, as a conference organizer, I love that.Right? Like, it's like everyone who sponsors a conference comes, does their booth. They're like, we are changing the future of ai or something, some generic b******t and like, no, like actually try to stand out, make it fun, right? And people still remember it after three years.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. You know what's so funny?I'll, I'll send, I'll give you this clip if you wanna, if you wanna add it [00:03:00] in, but, uh, my wife was at the time fiance, she was in medical school and she came to help us. ‘cause it was like a big moment for us. And so we, we bought this cricket, it's like a vinyl, like a vinyl, uh, printer. ‘cause like, how else are we gonna label the surfboard?So, we got a surfboard, luckily was able to purchase that on the company card. We got a cricket and it was just like fine tuning for enterprises or something like that, that we put on the. On the surfboard and it's 1:00 AM the day before we go to GTC. She's helping me put these like vinyl stickers on.And she goes, you son of, she's like, if you pull this off, you son of a b***h. And so, uh, right. Pretty much after the acquisition, I stitched that with the mag music acquisition. I sent it to our family group chat. Ohswyx: Yeah. No, well, she, she made a good choice there. Was that like basically the origin story for Launchable is that we, it was, and maybe we should explain what Brev is andNader: Yeah.Yeah. Uh, I mean, brev is just, it's a developer tool that makes it really easy to get a GPU. So we connect a bunch of different GPU sources. So the basics of it is like, how quickly can we SSH you into a G, into a GPU and whenever we would talk to users, they wanted A GPU. They wanted an A 100. And if you go to like any cloud [00:04:00] provisioning page, usually it's like three pages of forms or in the forms somewhere there's a dropdown.And in the dropdown there's some weird code that you know to translate to an A 100. And I remember just thinking like. Every time someone says they want an A 100, like the piece of text that they're telling me that they want is like, stuffed away in the corner. Yeah. And so we were like, what if the biggest piece of text was what the user's asking for?And so when you go to Brev, it's just big GPU chips with the type that you want withswyx: beautiful animations that you worked on pre, like pre you can, like, now you can just prompt it. But back in the day. Yeah. Yeah. Those were handcraft, handcrafted artisanal code.Nader: Yeah. I was actually really proud of that because, uh, it was an, i I made it in Figma.Yeah. And then I found, I was like really struggling to figure out how to turn it from like Figma to react. So what it actually is, is just an SVG and I, I have all the styles and so when you change the chip, whether it's like active or not it changes the SVG code and that somehow like renders like, looks like it's animating, but it, we just had the transition slow, but it's just like the, a JavaScript function to change the like underlying SVG.Yeah. And that was how I ended up like figuring out how to move it from from Figma. But yeah, that's Art Artisan. [00:05:00]Kyle: Speaking of marketing stunts though, he actually used those SVGs. Or kind of use those SVGs to make these cards.Nader: Oh yeah. LikeKyle: a GPU gift card Yes. That he handed out everywhere. That was actually my first impression of thatNader: one.Yeah,swyx: yeah, yeah.Nader: Yeah.swyx: I think I still have one of them.Nader: They look great.Kyle: Yeah.Nader: I have a ton of them still actually in our garage, which just, they don't have labels. We should honestly like bring, bring them back. But, um, I found this old printing press here, actually just around the corner on Ven ness. And it's a third generation San Francisco shop.And so I come in an excited startup founder trying to like, and they just have this crazy old machinery and I'm in awe. ‘cause the the whole building is so physical. Like you're seeing these machines, they have like pedals to like move these saws and whatever. I don't know what this machinery is, but I saw all three generations.Like there's like the grandpa, the father and the son, and the son was like, around my age. Well,swyx: it's like a holy, holy trinity.Nader: It's funny because we, so I just took the same SVG and we just like printed it and it's foil printing, so they make a a, a mold. That's like an inverse of like the A 100 and then they put the foil on it [00:06:00] and then they press it into the paper.And I remember once we got them, he was like, Hey, don't forget about us. You know, I guess like early Apple and Cisco's first business cards were all made there. And so he was like, yeah, we, we get like the startup businesses but then as they mature, they kind of go somewhere else. And so I actually, I think we were talking with marketing about like using them for some, we should go back and make some cards.swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I remember, you know, as a very, very small breadth investor, I was like, why are we spending time like, doing these like stunts for GPUs? Like, you know, I think like as a, you know, typical like cloud hard hardware person, you go into an AWS you pick like T five X xl, whatever, and it's just like from a list and you look at the specs like, why animate this GP?And, and I, I do think like it just shows the level of care that goes throughout birth and Yeah. And now, and also the, and,Nader: and Nvidia. I think that's what the, the thing that struck me most when we first came in was like the amount of passion that everyone has. Like, I think, um, you know, you talk to, you talk to Kyle, you talk to, like, every VP that I've met at Nvidia goes so close to the metal.Like, I remember it was almost a year ago, and like my VP asked me, he's like, Hey, [00:07:00] what's cursor? And like, are you using it? And if so, why? Surprised at this, and he downloaded Cursor and he was asking me to help him like, use it. And I thought that was, uh, or like, just show him what he, you know, why we were using it.And so, the amount of care that I think everyone has and the passion, appreciate, passion and appreciation for the moment. Right. This is a very unique time. So it's really cool to see everyone really like, uh, appreciate that.swyx: Yeah.Acquisition and DevEx Shiftswyx: One thing I wanted to do before we move over to sort of like research topics and, uh, the, the stuff that Kyle's working on is just tell the story of the acquisition, right?Like, not many people have been, been through an acquisition with Nvidia. What's it like? Uh, what, yeah, just anything you'd like to say.Nader: It's a crazy experience. I think, uh, you know, we were the thing that was the most exciting for us was. Our goal was just to make it easier for developers.We wanted to find access to GPUs, make it easier to do that. And then all, oh, actually your question about launchable. So launchable was just make one click exper, like one click deploys for any software on top of the GPU. Mm-hmm. And so what we really liked about Nvidia was that it felt like we just got a lot more resources to do all of that.I think, uh, you [00:08:00] know, NVIDIA's goal is to make things as easy for developers as possible. So there was a really nice like synergy there. I think that, you know, when it comes to like an acquisition, I think the amount that the soul of the products align, I think is gonna be. Is going speak to the success of the acquisition.Yeah. And so it in many ways feels like we're home. This is a really great outcome for us. Like we you know, I love brev.nvidia.com. Like you should, you should use it's, it's theKyle: front page for GPUs.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. If you want GP views,Kyle: you go there, getswyx: it there, and it's like internally is growing very quickly.I, I don't remember You said some stats there.Nader: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, I, I wish I had the exact numbers, but like internally, externally, it's been growing really quickly. We've been working with a bunch of partners with a bunch of different customers and ISVs, if you have a solution that you want someone that runs on the GPU and you want people to use it quickly, we can bundle it up, uh, in a launchable and make it a one click run.If you're doing things and you want just like a sandbox or something to run on, right. Like open claw. Huge moment. Super exciting. Our, uh, and we'll talk into it more, but. You know, internally, people wanna run this, and you, we know we have to be really careful from the security implications. Do we let this run on the corporate network?Security's guidance was, Hey, [00:09:00] run this on breath, it's in, you know, it's, it's, it's a vm, it's sitting in the cloud, it's off the corporate network. It's isolated. And so that's been our stance internally and externally about how to even run something like open call while we figure out how to run these things securely.But yeah,swyx: I think there's also like, you almost like we're the right team at the right time when Nvidia is starting to invest a lot more in developer experience or whatever you call it. Yeah. Uh, UX or I don't know what you call it, like software. Like obviously NVIDIA is always invested in software, but like, there's like, this is like a different audience.Yeah. It's aNader: widerKyle: developer base.swyx: Yeah. Right.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny, it's like, it's not, uh,swyx: so like, what, what is it called internally? What, what is this that people should be aware that is going on there?Nader: Uh, what, like developer experienceswyx: or, yeah, yeah. Is it's called just developer experience or is there like a broader strategy hereNader: in Nvidia?Um, Nvidia always wants to make a good developer experience. The thing is and a lot of the technology is just really complicated. Like, it's not, it's uh, you know, I think, um. The thing that's been really growing or the AI's growing is having a huge moment, not [00:10:00] because like, let's say data scientists in 2018, were quiet then and are much louder now.The pie is com, right? There's a whole bunch of new audiences. My mom's wondering what she's doing. My sister's learned, like taught herself how to code. Like the, um, you know, I, I actually think just generally AI's a big equalizer and you're seeing a more like technologically literate society, I guess.Like everyone's, everyone's learning how to code. Uh, there isn't really an excuse for that. And so building a good UX means that you really understand who your end user is. And when your end user becomes such a wide, uh, variety of people, then you have to almost like reinvent the practice, right? Yeah. You haveKyle: to, and actually build more developer ux, right?Because the, there are tiers of developer base that were added. You know, the, the hackers that are building on top of open claw, right? For example, have never used gpu. They don't know what kuda is. They, they, they just want to run something.Nader: Yeah.Kyle: You need new UX that is not just. Hey, you know, how do you program something in Cuda and run it?And then, and then we built, you know, like when Deep Learning was getting big, we built, we built Torch and, and, but so recently the amount of like [00:11:00] layers that are added to that developer stack has just exploded because AI has become ubiquitous. Everyone's using it in different ways. Yeah. It'sNader: moving fast in every direction.Vertical, horizontal.Vibhu: Yeah. You guys, you even take it down to hardware, like the DGX Spark, you know, it's, it's basically the same system as just throwing it up on big GPU cluster.Nader: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. Blackwell.swyx: Yeah. Uh, we saw the preview at the last year's GTC and that was one of the better performing, uh, videos so far, and video coverage so far.Awesome. This will beat it. Um,Nader: that wasswyx: actually, we have fingersNader: crossed. Yeah.DGX Spark and Remote AccessNader: Even when Grace Blackwell or when, um, uh, DGX Spark was first coming out getting to be involved in that from the beginning of the developer experience. And it just comes back to what youswyx: were involved.Nader: Yeah. St. St.swyx: Mars.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. I mean from, it was just like, I, I got an email, we just got thrown into the loop and suddenly yeah, I, it was actually really funny ‘cause I'm still pretty fresh from the acquisition and I'm, I'm getting an email from a bunch of the engineering VPs about like, the new hardware, GPU chip, like we're, or not chip, but just GPU system that we're putting out.And I'm like, okay, cool. Matters. Now involved with this for the ux, I'm like. What am I gonna do [00:12:00] here? So, I remember the first meeting, I was just like kind of quiet as I was hearing engineering VPs talk about what this box could be, what it could do, how we should use it. And I remember, uh, one of the first ideas that people were idea was like, oh, the first thing that it was like, I think a quote was like, the first thing someone's gonna wanna do with this is get two of them and run a Kubernetes cluster on top of them.And I was like, oh, I think I know why I'm here. I was like, the first thing we're doing is easy. SSH into the machine. And then, and you know, just kind of like scoping it down of like, once you can do that every, you, like the person who wants to run a Kubernetes cluster onto Sparks has a higher propensity for pain, then, then you know someone who buys it and wants to run open Claw right now, right?If you can make sure that that's as effortless as possible, then the rest becomes easy. So there's a tool called Nvidia Sync. It just makes the SSH connection really simple. So, you know, if you think about it like. If you have a Mac, uh, or a PC or whatever, if you have a laptop and you buy this GPU and you want to use it, you should be able to use it like it's A-A-G-P-U in the cloud, right?Um, but there's all this friction of like, how do you actually get into that? That's part of [00:13:00] Revs value proposition is just, you know, there's a CLI that wraps SSH and makes it simple. And so our goal is just get you into that machine really easily. And one thing we just launched at CES, it's in, it's still in like early access.We're ironing out some kinks, but it should be ready by GTC. You can register your spark on Brev. And so now if youswyx: like remote managed yeah, local hardware. Single pane of glass. Yeah. Yeah. Because Brev can already manage other clouds anyway, right?Vibhu: Yeah, yeah. And you use the spark on Brev as well, right?Nader: Yeah. But yeah, exactly. So, so you, you, so you, you set it up at home you can run the command on it, and then it gets it's essentially it'll appear in your Brev account, and then you can take your laptop to a Starbucks or to a cafe, and you'll continue to use your, you can continue use your spark just like any other cloud node on Brev.Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like a pre-provisioned centerswyx: in yourNader: home. Yeah, exactly.swyx: Yeah. Yeah.Vibhu: Tiny little data center.Nader: Tiny little, the size ofVibhu: your phone.SOL Culture and Dynamo Setupswyx: One more thing before we move on to Kyle. Just have so many Jensen stories and I just love, love mining Jensen stories. Uh, my favorite so far is SOL. Uh, what is, yeah, what is S-O-L-S-O-LNader: is actually, i, I think [00:14:00] of all the lessons I've learned, that one's definitely my favorite.Kyle: It'll always stick with you.Nader: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, in your startup, everything's existential, right? Like we've, we've run out of money. We were like, on the risk of, of losing payroll, we've had to contract our team because we l ran outta money. And so like, um, because of that you're really always forcing yourself to I to like understand the root cause of everything.If you get a date, if you get a timeline, you know exactly why that date or timeline is there. You're, you're pushing every boundary and like, you're not just say, you're not just accepting like a, a no. Just because. And so as you start to introduce more layers, as you start to become a much larger organization, SOL is is essentially like what is the physics, right?The speed of light moves at a certain speed. So if flight's moving some slower, then you know something's in the way. So before trying to like layer reality back in of like, why can't this be delivered at some date? Let's just understand the physics. What is the theoretical limit to like, uh, how fast this can go?And then start to tell me why. ‘cause otherwise people will start telling you why something can't be done. But actually I think any great leader's goal is just to create urgency. Yeah. [00:15:00] There's an infiniteKyle: create compelling events, right?Nader: Yeah.Kyle: Yeah. So l is a term video is used to instigate a compelling event.You say this is done. How do we get there? What is the minimum? As much as necessary, as little as possible thing that it takes for us to get exactly here and. It helps you just break through a bunch of noise.swyx: Yeah.Kyle: Instantly.swyx: One thing I'm unclear about is, can only Jensen use the SOL card? Like, oh, no, no, no.Not everyone get the b******t out because obviously it's Jensen, but like, can someone else be like, no, likeKyle: frontline engineers use it.Nader: Yeah. Every, I think it's not so much about like, get the b******t out. It's like, it's like, give me the root understanding, right? Like, if you tell me something takes three weeks, it like, well, what's the first principles?Yeah, the first principles. It's like, what's the, what? Like why is it three weeks? What is the actual yeah. What's the actual limit of why this is gonna take three weeks? If you're gonna, if you, if let's say you wanted to buy a new computer and someone told you it's gonna be here in five days, what's the SOL?Well, like the SOL is like, I could walk into a Best Buy and pick it up for you. Right? So then anything that's like beyond that is, and is that practical? Is that how we're gonna, you know, let's say give everyone in the [00:16:00] company a laptop, like obviously not. So then like that's the SOL and then it's like, okay, well if we have to get more than 10, suddenly there might be some, right?And so now we can kind of piece the reality back.swyx: So, so this is the. Paul Graham do things that don't scale. Yeah. And this is also the, what people would now call behi agency. Yeah.Kyle: It's actually really interesting because there's a, there's a second hardware angle to SOL that like doesn't come up for all the org sol is used like culturally at aswyx: media for everything.I'm also mining for like, I think that can be annoying sometimes. And like someone keeps going IOO you and you're like, guys, like we have to be stable. We have to, we to f*****g plan. Yeah.Kyle: It's an interesting balance.Nader: Yeah. I encounter that with like, actually just with, with Alec, right? ‘cause we, we have a new conference so we need to launch, we have, we have goals of what we wanna launch by, uh, by the conference and like, yeah.At the end of the day, where isswyx: this GTC?Nader: Um, well this is like, so we, I mean we did it for CES, we did for GT CDC before that we're doing it for GTC San Jose. So I mean, like every, you know, we have a new moment. Um, and we want to launch something. Yeah. And we want to do so at SOL and that does mean that some, there's some level of prioritization that needs [00:17:00] to happen.And so it, it is difficult, right? I think, um, you have to be careful with what you're pushing. You know, stability is important and that should be factored into S-O-L-S-O-L isn't just like, build everything and let it break, you know, that, that's part of the conversation. So as you're laying, layering in all the details, one of them might be, Hey, we could build this, but then it's not gonna be stable for X, y, z reasons.And so that was like, one of our conversations for CES was, you know, hey, like we, we can get this into early access registering your spark with brev. But there are a lot of things that we need to do in order to feel really comfortable from a security perspective, right? There's a lot of networking involved before we deliver that to users.So it's like, okay. Let's get this to a point where we can at least let people experiment with it. We had it in a booth, we had it in Jensen's keynote, and then let's go iron out all the networking kinks. And that's not easy. And so, uh, that can come later. And so that was the way that we layered that back in.Yeah. ButKyle: It's not really about saying like, you don't have to do the, the maintenance or operational work. It's more about saying, you know, it's kind of like [00:18:00] highlights how progress is incremental, right? Like, what is the minimum thing that we can get to. And then there's SOL for like every component after that.But there's the SOL to get you, get you to the, the starting line. And that, that's usually how it's asked. Yeah. On the other side, you know, like SOL came out of like hardware at Nvidia. Right. So SOL is like literally if we ran the accelerator or the GPU with like at basically full speed with like no other constraints, like how FAST would be able to make a program go.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Right.Kyle: Soswyx: in, in training that like, you know, then you work back to like some percentage of like MFU for example.Kyle: Yeah, that's a, that's a great example. So like, there's an, there's an S-O-L-M-F-U, and then there's like, you know, what's practically achievable.swyx: Cool. Should we move on to sort of, uh, Kyle's side?Uh, Kyle, you're coming more from the data science world. And, uh, I, I mean I always, whenever, whenever I meet someone who's done working in tabular stuff, graph neural networks, time series, these are basically when I go to new reps, I go to ICML, I walk the back halls. There's always like a small group of graph people.Yes. Absolute small group of tabular people. [00:19:00] And like, there's no one there. And like, it's very like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, no, like it's, it's important interesting work if you care about solving the problems that they solve.Kyle: Yeah.swyx: But everyone else is just LMS all the time.Kyle: Yeah. I mean it's like, it's like the black hole, right?Has the event horizon reached this yet in nerves? Um,swyx: but like, you know, those are, those are transformers too. Yeah. And, and those are also like interesting things. Anyway, uh, I just wanted to spend a little bit of time on, on those, that background before we go into Dynamo, uh, proper.Kyle: Yeah, sure. I took a different path to Nvidia than that, or I joined six years ago, seven, if you count, when I was an intern.So I joined Nvidia, like right outta college. And the first thing I jumped into was not what I'd done in, during internship, which was like, you know, like some stuff for autonomous vehicles, like heavyweight object detection. I jumped into like, you know, something, I'm like, recommenders, this is popular. Andswyx: yeah, he did RexiKyle: as well.Yeah, Rexi. Yeah. I mean that, that was the taboo data at the time, right? You have tables of like, audience qualities and item qualities, and you're trying to figure out like which member of [00:20:00] the audience matches which item or, or more practically which item matches which member of the audience. And at the time, really it was like we were trying to enable.Uh, recommender, which had historically been like a little bit of a CP based workflow into something that like, ran really well in GPUs. And it's since been done. Like there are a bunch of libraries for Axis that run on GPUs. Uh, the common models like Deeplearning recommendation model, which came outta meta and the wide and deep model, which was used or was released by Google were very accelerated by GPUs using, you know, the fast HBM on the chips, especially to do, you know, vector lookups.But it was very interesting at the time and super, super relevant because like we were starting to get like. This explosion of feeds and things that required rec recommenders to just actively be on all the time. And sort of transitioned that a little bit towards graph neural networks when I discovered them because I was like, okay, you can actually use graphical neural networks to represent like, relationships between people, items, concepts, and that, that interested me.So I jumped into that at [00:21:00] Nvidia and, and got really involved for like two-ish years.swyx: Yeah. Uh, and something I learned from Brian Zaro Yeah. Is that you can just kind of choose your own path in Nvidia.Kyle: Oh my God. Yeah.swyx: Which is not a normal big Corp thing. Yeah. Like you, you have a lane, you stay in your lane.Nader: I think probably the reason why I enjoy being in a, a big company, the mission is the boss probably from a startup guy. Yeah. The missionswyx: is the boss.Nader: Yeah. Uh, it feels like a big game of pickup basketball. Like, you know, if you play one, if you wanna play basketball, you just go up to the court and you're like, Hey look, we're gonna play this game and we need three.Yeah. And you just like find your three. That's honestly for every new initiative that's what it feels like. Yeah.Vibhu: It also like shows, right? Like Nvidia. Just releasing state-of-the-art stuff in every domain. Yeah. Like, okay, you expect foundation models with Nemo tron voice just randomly parakeet.Call parakeet just comes out another one, uh, voice. TheKyle: video voice team has always been producing.Vibhu: Yeah. There's always just every other domain of paper that comes out, dataset that comes out. It's like, I mean, it also stems back to what Nvidia has to do, right? You have to make chips years before they're actually produced.Right? So you need to know, you need to really [00:22:00] focus. TheKyle: design process starts likeVibhu: exactlyKyle: three to five years before the chip gets to the market.Vibhu: Yeah. I, I'm curious more about what that's like, right? So like, you have specialist teams. Is it just like, you know, people find an interest, you go in, you go deep on whatever, and that kind of feeds back into, you know, okay, we, we expect predictions.Like the internals at Nvidia must be crazy. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. You know, you, you must. Not even without selling to people, you have your own predictions of where things are going. Yeah. And they're very based, very grounded. Right?Kyle: Yeah. It, it, it's really interesting. So there's like two things that I think that Amed does, which are quite interesting.Uh, one is like, we really index into passion. There's a big. Sort of organizational top sound push to like ensure that people are working on the things that they're passionate about. So if someone proposes something that's interesting, many times they can just email someone like way up the chain that they would find this relevant and say like, Hey, can I go work on this?Nader: It's actually like I worked at a, a big company for a couple years before, uh, starting on my startup journey and like, it felt very weird if you were to like email out of chain, if that makes [00:23:00] sense. Yeah. The emails at Nvidia are like mosh pitsswyx: shoot,Nader: and it's just like 60 people, just whatever. And like they're, there's this,swyx: they got messy like, reply all you,Nader: oh, it's in, it's insane.It's insane. They justKyle: help. You know, Maxim,Nader: the context. But, but that's actually like, I've actually, so this is a weird thing where I used to be like, why would we send emails? We have Slack. I am the entire, I'm the exact opposite. I feel so bad for anyone who's like messaging me on Slack ‘cause I'm so unresponsive.swyx: Your emailNader: Maxi, email Maxim. I'm email maxing Now email is a different, email is perfect because man, we can't work together. I'm email is great, right? Because important threads get bumped back up, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, and so Slack doesn't do that. So I just have like this casino going off on the right or on the left and like, I don't know which thread was from where or what, but like the threads get And then also just like the subject, so you can have like working threads.I think what's difficult is like when you're small, if you're just not 40,000 people I think Slack will work fine, but there's, I don't know what the inflection point is. There is gonna be a point where that becomes really messy and you'll actually prefer having email. ‘cause you can have working threads.You can cc more than nine people in a thread.Kyle: You can fork stuff.Nader: You can [00:24:00] fork stuff, which is super nice and just like y Yeah. And so, but that is part of where you can propose a plan. You can also just. Start, honestly, momentum's the only authority, right? So like, if you can just start, start to make a little bit of progress and show someone something, and then they can try it.That's, I think what's been, you know, I think the most effective way to push anything for forward. And that's both at Nvidia and I think just generally.Kyle: Yeah, there's, there's the other concept that like is explored a lot at Nvidia, which is this idea of a zero billion dollar business. Like market creation is a big thing at Nvidia.Like,swyx: oh, you want to go and start a zero billion dollar business?Kyle: Jensen says, we are completely happy investing in zero billion dollar markets. We don't care if this creates revenue. It's important for us to know about this market. We think it will be important in the future. It can be zero billion dollars for a while.I'm probably minging as words here for, but like, you know, like, I'll give an example. NVIDIA's been working on autonomous driving for a a long time,swyx: like an Nvidia car.Kyle: No, they, they'veVibhu: used the Mercedes, right? They're around the HQ and I think it finally just got licensed out. Now they're starting to be used quite a [00:25:00] bit.For 10 years you've been seeing Mercedes with Nvidia logos driving.Kyle: If you're in like the South San Santa Clara, it's, it's actually from South. Yeah. So, um. Zero billion dollar markets are, are a thing like, you know, Jensen,swyx: I mean, okay, look, cars are not a zero billion dollar market. But yeah, that's a bad example.Nader: I think, I think he's, he's messaging, uh, zero today, but, or even like internally, right? Like, like it's like, uh, an org doesn't have to ruthlessly find revenue very quickly to justify their existence. Right. Like a lot of the important research, a lot of the important technology being developed that, that's kind ofKyle: where research, research is very ide ideologically free at Nvidia.Yeah. Like they can pursue things that they wereswyx: Were you research officially?Kyle: I was never in research. Officially. I was always in engineering. Yeah. We in, I'm in an org called Deep Warning Algorithms, which is basically just how do we make things that are relevant to deep warning go fast.swyx: That sounds freaking cool.Vibhu: And I think a lot of that is underappreciated, right? Like time series. This week Google put out time. FF paper. Yeah. A new time series, paper res. Uh, Symantec, ID [00:26:00] started applying Transformers LMS to Yes. Rec system. Yes. And when you think the scale of companies deploying these right. Amazon recommendations, Google web search, it's like, it's huge scale andKyle: Yeah.Vibhu: You want fast?Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually it's, it, I, there's a fun moment that brought me like full circle. Like, uh, Amazon Ads recently gave a talk where they talked about using Dynamo for generative recommendation, which was like super, like weirdly cathartic for me. I'm like, oh my God. I've, I've supplanted what I was working on.Like, I, you're using LMS now to do what I was doing five years ago.swyx: Yeah. Amazing. And let's go right into Dynamo. Uh, maybe introduce Yeah, sure. To the top down and Yeah.Kyle: I think at this point a lot of people are familiar with the term of inference. Like funnily enough, like I went from, you know, inference being like a really niche topic to being something that's like discussed on like normal people's Twitter feeds.It's,Nader: it's on billboardsKyle: here now. Yeah. Very, very strange. Driving, driving, seeing just an inference ad on 1 0 1 inference at scale is becoming a lot more important. Uh, we have these moments like, you know, open claw where you have these [00:27:00] agents that take lots and lots of tokens, but produce, incredible results.There are many different aspects of test time scaling so that, you know, you can use more inference to generate a better result than if you were to use like a short amount of inference. There's reasoning, there's quiring, there's, adding agency to the model, allowing it to call tools and use skills.Dyno sort came about at Nvidia. Because myself and a couple others were, were sort of talking about the, these concepts that like, you know, you have inference engines like VLMS, shelan, tenor, TLM and they have like one single copy. They, they, they sort of think about like things as like one single copy, like one replica, right?Why Scale Out WinsKyle: Like one version of the model. But when you're actually serving things at scale, you can't just scale up that replica because you end up with like performance problems. There's a scaling limit to scaling up replicas. So you actually have to scale out to use a, maybe some Kubernetes type terminology.We kind of realized that there was like. A lot of potential optimization that we could do in scaling out and building systems for data [00:28:00] center scale inference. So Dynamo is this data center scale inference engine that sits on top of the frameworks like VLM Shilling and 10 T lm and just makes things go faster because you can leverage the economy of scale.The fact that you have KV cash, which we can define a little bit later, uh, in all these machines that is like unique and you wanna figure out like the ways to maximize your cash hits or you want to employ new techniques in inference like disaggregation, which Dynamo had introduced to the world in, in, in March, not introduced, it was a academic talk, but beforehand.But we are, you know, one of the first frameworks to start, supporting it. And we wanna like, sort of combine all these techniques into sort of a modular framework that allows you to. Accelerate your inference at scale.Nader: By the way, Kyle and I became friends on my first date, Nvidia, and I always loved, ‘cause like he always teaches meswyx: new things.Yeah. By the way, this is why I wanted to put two of you together. I was like, yeah, this is, this is gonna beKyle: good. It's very, it's very different, you know, like we've, we, we've, we've talked to each other a bunch [00:29:00] actually, you asked like, why, why can't we scale up?Nader: Yeah.Scale Up Limits ExplainedNader: model, you said model replicas.Kyle: Yeah. So you, so scale up means assigning moreswyx: heavier?Kyle: Yeah, heavier. Like making things heavier. Yeah, adding more GPUs. Adding more CPUs. Scale out is just like having a barrier saying, I'm gonna duplicate my representation of the model or a representation of this microservice or something, and I'm gonna like, replicate it Many times.Handle, load. And the reason that you can't scale, scale up, uh, past some points is like, you know, there, there, there are sort of hardware bounds and algorithmic bounds on, on that type of scaling. So I'll give you a good example that's like very trivial. Let's say you're on an H 100. The Maxim ENV link domain for H 100, for most Ds H one hundreds is heus, right?So if you scaled up past that, you're gonna have to figure out ways to handle the fact that now for the GPUs to communicate, you have to do it over Infin band, which is still very fast, but is not as fast as ENV link.swyx: Is it like one order of magnitude, like hundreds or,Kyle: it's about an order of magnitude?Yeah. Okay. Um, soswyx: not terrible.Kyle: [00:30:00] Yeah. I, I need to, I need to remember the, the data sheet here, like, I think it's like about 500 gigabytes. Uh, a second unidirectional for ENV link, and about 50 gigabytes a second unidirectional for Infin Band. I, it, it depends on the, the generation.swyx: I just wanna set this up for people who are not familiar with these kinds of like layers and the trash speedVibhu: and all that.Of course.From Laptop to Multi NodeVibhu: Also, maybe even just going like a few steps back before that, like most people are very familiar with. You see a, you know, you can use on your laptop, whatever these steel viol, lm you can just run inference there. All, there's all, you can, youcan run it on thatVibhu: laptop. You can run on laptop.Then you get to, okay, uh, models got pretty big, right? JLM five, they doubled the size, so mm-hmm. Uh, what do you do when you have to go from, okay, I can get 128 gigs of memory. I can run it on a spark. Then you have to go multi GPU. Yeah. Okay. Multi GPU, there's some support there. Now, if I'm a company and I don't have like.I'm not hiring the best researchers for this. Right. But I need to go [00:31:00] multi-node, right? I have a lot of servers. Okay, now there's efficiency problems, right? You can have multiple eight H 100 nodes, but, you know, is that as a, like, how do you do that efficiently?Kyle: Yeah. How do you like represent them? How do you choose how to represent the model?Yeah, exactly right. That's a, that's like a hard question. Everyone asks, how do you size oh, I wanna run GLM five, which just came out new model. There have been like four of them in the past week, by the way, like a bunch of new models.swyx: You know why? Right? Deep seek.Kyle: No comment. Oh. Yeah, but Ggl, LM five, right?We, we have this, new model. It's, it's like a large size, and you have to figure out how to both scale up and scale out, right? Because you have to find the right representation that you care about. Everyone does this differently. Let's be very clear. Everyone figures this out in their own path.Nader: I feel like a lot of AI or ML even is like, is like this. I think people think, you know, I, I was, there was some tweet a few months ago that was like, why hasn't fine tuning as a service taken off? You know, that might be me. It might have been you. Yeah. But people want it to be such an easy recipe to follow.But even like if you look at an ML model and specificKyle: to you Yeah,Nader: yeah.Kyle: And the [00:32:00] model,Nader: the situation, and there's just so much tinkering, right? Like when you see a model that has however many experts in the ME model, it's like, why that many experts? I don't, they, you know, they tried a bunch of things and that one seemed to do better.I think when it comes to how you're serving inference, you know, you have a bunch of decisions to make and there you can always argue that you can take something and make it more optimal. But I think it's this internal calibration and appetite for continued calibration.Vibhu: Yeah. And that doesn't mean like, you know, people aren't taking a shot at this, like tinker from thinking machines, you know?Yeah. RL as a service. Yeah, totally. It's, it also gets even harder when you try to do big model training, right? We're not the best at training Moes, uh, when they're pre-trained. Like we saw this with LAMA three, right? They're trained in such a sparse way that meta knows there's gonna be a bunch of inference done on these, right?They'll open source it, but it's very trained for what meta infrastructure wants, right? They wanna, they wanna inference it a lot. Now the question to basically think about is, okay, say you wanna serve a chat application, a coding copilot, right? You're doing a layer of rl, you're serving a model for X amount of people.Is it a chat model, a coding model? Dynamo, you know, back to that,Kyle: it's [00:33:00] like, yeah, sorry. So you we, we sort of like jumped off of, you know, jumped, uh, on that topic. Everyone has like, their own, own journey.Cost Quality Latency TradeoffsKyle: And I, I like to think of it as defined by like, what is the model you need? What is the accuracy you need?Actually I talked to NA about this earlier. There's three axes you care about. What is the quality that you're able to produce? So like, are you accurate enough or can you complete the task with enough, performance, high enough performance. Yeah, yeah. Uh, there's cost. Can you serve the model or serve your workflow?Because it's not just the model anymore, it's the workflow. It's the multi turn with an agent cheaply enough. And then can you serve it fast enough? And we're seeing all three of these, like, play out, like we saw, we saw new models from OpenAI that you know, are faster. You have like these new fast versions of models.You can change the amount of thinking to change the amount of quality, right? Produce more tokens, but at a higher cost in a, in a higher latency. And really like when you start this journey of like trying to figure out how you wanna host a model, you, you, you think about three things. What is the model I need to serve?How many times do I need to call it? What is the input sequence link was [00:34:00] the, what does the workflow look like on top of it? What is the SLA, what is the latency SLA that I need to achieve? Because there's usually some, this is usually like a constant, you, you know, the SLA that you need to hit and then like you try and find the lowest cost version that hits all of these constraints.Usually, you know, you, you start with those things and you say you, you kind of do like a bit of experimentation across some common configurations. You change the tensor parallel size, which is a form of parallelismVibhu: I take, it goes even deeper first. Gotta think what model.Kyle: Yes, course,ofKyle: course. It's like, it's like a multi-step design process because as you said, you can, you can choose a smaller model and then do more test time scaling and it'll equate the quality of a larger model because you're doing the test time scaling or you're adding a harness or something.So yes, it, it goes way deeper than that. But from the performance perspective, like once you get to the model you need, you need to host, you look at that and you say, Hey. I have this model, I need to serve it at the speed. What is the right configuration for that?Nader: You guys see the recent, uh, there was a paper I just saw like a few days ago that, uh, if you run [00:35:00] the same prompt twice, you're getting like double Just try itagain.Nader: Yeah, exactly.Vibhu: And you get a lot. Yeah. But the, the key thing there is you give the context of the failed try, right? Yeah. So it takes a shot. And this has been like, you know, basic guidance for quite a while. Just try again. ‘cause you know, trying, just try again. Did you try again? All adviceNader: in life.Vibhu: Just, it's a paper from Google, if I'm not mistaken, right?Yeah,Vibhu: yeah. I think it, it's like a seven bas little short paper. Yeah. Yeah. The title's very cute. And it's just like, yeah, just try again. Give it ask context,Kyle: multi-shot. You just like, say like, hey, like, you know, like take, take a little bit more, take a little bit more information, try and fail. Fail.Vibhu: And that basic concept has gone pretty deep.There's like, um, self distillation, rl where you, you do self distillation, you do rl and you have past failure and you know, that gives some signal so people take, try it again. Not strong enough.swyx: Uh, for, for listeners, uh, who listen to here, uh, vivo actually, and I, and we run a second YouTube channel for our paper club where, oh, that's awesome.Vivo just covered this. Yeah. Awesome. Self desolation and all that's, that's why he, to speed [00:36:00] on it.Nader: I'll to check it out.swyx: Yeah. It, it's just a good practice, like everyone needs, like a paper club where like you just read papers together and the social pressure just kind of forces you to just,Nader: we, we,there'sNader: like a big inference.Kyle: ReadingNader: group at a video. I feel so bad every time. I I, he put it on like, on our, he shared it.swyx: One, one ofNader: your guys,swyx: uh, is, is big in that, I forget es han Yeah, yeah,Kyle: es Han's on my team. Actually. Funny. There's a, there's a, there's a employee transfer between us. Han worked for Nater at Brev, and now he, he's on my team.He wasNader: our head of ai. And then, yeah, once we got in, andswyx: because I'm always looking for like, okay, can, can I start at another podcast that only does that thing? Yeah. And, uh, Esan was like, I was trying to like nudge Esan into like, is there something here? I mean, I don't think there's, there's new infant techniques every day.So it's like, it's likeKyle: you would, you would actually be surprised, um, the amount of blog posts you see. And ifswyx: there's a period where it was like, Medusa hydra, what Eagle, like, youKyle: know, now we have new forms of decode, uh, we have new forms of specula, of decoding or new,swyx: what,Kyle: what are youVibhu: excited? And it's exciting when you guys put out something like Tron.‘cause I remember the paper on this Tron three, [00:37:00] uh, the amount of like post train, the on tokens that the GPU rich can just train on. And it, it was a hybrid state space model, right? Yeah.Kyle: It's co-designed for the hardware.Vibhu: Yeah, go design for the hardware. And one of the things was always, you know, the state space models don't scale as well when you do a conversion or whatever the performance.And you guys are like, no, just keep draining. And Nitron shows a lot of that. Yeah.Nader: Also, something cool about Nitron it was released in layers, if you will, very similar to Dynamo. It's, it's, it's essentially it was released as you can, the pre-training, post-training data sets are released. Yeah. The recipes on how to do it are released.The model itself is released. It's full model. You just benefit from us turning on the GPUs. But there are companies like, uh, ServiceNow took the dataset and they trained their own model and we were super excited and like, you know, celebrated that work.ZoomVibhu: different. Zoom is, zoom is CGI, I think, uh, you know, also just to add like a lot of models don't put out based models and if there's that, why is fine tuning not taken off?You know, you can do your own training. Yeah,Kyle: sure.Vibhu: You guys put out based model, I think you put out everything.Nader: I believe I know [00:38:00]swyx: about base. BasicallyVibhu: without baseswyx: basic can be cancelable.Vibhu: Yeah. Base can be cancelable.swyx: Yeah.Vibhu: Safety training.swyx: Did we get a full picture of dymo? I, I don't know if we, what,Nader: what I'd love is you, you mentioned the three axes like break it down of like, you know, what's prefilled decode and like what are the optimizations that we can get with Dynamo?Kyle: Yeah. That, that's, that's, that's a great point. So to summarize on that three axis problem, right, there are three things that determine whether or not something can be done with inference, cost, quality, latency, right? Dynamo is supposed to be there to provide you like the runtime that allows you to pull levers to, you know, mix it up and move around the parade of frontier or the preto surface that determines is this actually possible with inference And AI todayNader: gives you the knobs.Kyle: Yeah, exactly. It gives you the knobs.Disaggregation Prefill vs DecodeKyle: Uh, and one thing that like we, we use a lot in contemporary inference and is, you know, starting to like pick up from, you know, in, in general knowledge is this co concept of disaggregation. So historically. Models would be hosted with a single inference engine. And that inference engine [00:39:00] would ping pong between two phases.There's prefill where you're reading the sequence generating KV cache, which is basically just a set of vectors that represent the sequence. And then using that KV cache to generate new tokens, which is called Decode. And some brilliant researchers across multiple different papers essentially made the realization that if you separate these two phases, you actually gain some benefits.Those benefits are basically a you don't have to worry about step synchronous scheduling. So the way that an inference engine works is you do one step and then you finish it, and then you schedule, you start scheduling the next step there. It's not like fully asynchronous. And the problem with that is you would have, uh, essentially pre-fill and decode are, are actually very different in terms of both their resource requirements and their sometimes their runtime.So you would have like prefill that would like block decode steps because you, you'd still be pre-filing and you couldn't schedule because you know the step has to end. So you remove that scheduling issue and then you also allow you, or you yourself, to like [00:40:00] split the work into two different ki types of pools.So pre-fill typically, and, and this changes as, as model architecture changes. Pre-fill is, right now, compute bound most of the time with the sequence is sufficiently long. It's compute bound. On the decode side because you're doing a full Passover, all the weights and the entire sequence, every time you do a decode step and you're, you don't have the quadratic computation of KV cache, it's usually memory bound because you're retrieving a linear amount of memory and you're doing a linear amount of compute as opposed to prefill where you retrieve a linear amount of memory and then use a quadratic.You know,Nader: it's funny, someone exo Labs did a really cool demo where for the DGX Spark, which has a lot more compute, you can do the pre the compute hungry prefill on a DG X spark and then do the decode on a, on a Mac. Yeah. And soVibhu: that's faster.Nader: Yeah. Yeah.Kyle: So you could, you can do that. You can do machine strat stratification.Nader: Yeah.Kyle: And like with our future generation generations of hardware, we actually announced, like with Reuben, this [00:41:00] new accelerator that is prefilled specific. It's called Reuben, CPX. SoKubernetes Scaling with GroveNader: I have a question when you do the scale out. Yeah. Is scaling out easier with Dynamo? Because when you need a new node, you can dedicate it to either the Prefill or, uh, decode.Kyle: Yeah. So Dynamo actually has like a, a Kubernetes component in it called Grove that allows you to, to do this like crazy scaling specialization. It has like this hot, it's a representation that, I don't wanna go too deep into Kubernetes here, but there was a previous way that you would like launch multi-node work.Uh, it's called Leader Worker Set. It's in the Kubernetes standard, and Leader worker set is great. It served a lot of people super well for a long period of time. But one of the things that it's struggles with is representing a set of cases where you have a multi-node replica that has a pair, right?You know, prefill and decode, or it's not paired, but it has like a second stage that has a ratio that changes over time. And prefill and decode are like two different things as your workload changes, right? The amount of prefill you'll need to do may change. [00:42:00] The amount of decode that you, you'll need to do might change, right?Like, let's say you start getting like insanely long queries, right? That probably means that your prefill scales like harder because you're hitting these, this quadratic scaling growth.swyx: Yeah.And then for listeners, like prefill will be long input. Decode would be long output, for example, right?Kyle: Yeah. So like decode, decode scale. I mean, decode is funny because the amount of tokens that you produce scales with the output length, but the amount of work that you do per step scales with the amount of tokens in the context.swyx: Yes.Kyle: So both scales with the input and the output.swyx: That's true.Kyle: But on the pre-fold view code side, like if.Suddenly, like the amount of work you're doing on the decode side stays about the same or like scales a little bit, and then the prefilled side like jumps up a lot. You actually don't want that ratio to be the same. You want it to change over time. So Dynamo has a set of components that A, tell you how to scale.It tells you how many prefilled workers and decoded workers you, it thinks you should have, and also provides a scheduling API for Kubernetes that allows you to actually represent and affect this scheduling on, on, on your actual [00:43:00] hardware, on your compute infrastructure.Nader: Not gonna lie. I feel a little embarrassed for being proud of my SVG function earlier.swyx: No, itNader: wasreallyKyle: cute. I, Iswyx: likeNader: it's all,swyx: it's all engineering. It's all engineering. Um, that's where I'mKyle: technical.swyx: One thing I'm, I'm kind of just curious about with all with you see at a systems level, everything going on here. Mm-hmm. And we, you know, we're scaling it up in, in multi, in distributed systems.Context Length and Co Designswyx: Um, I think one thing that's like kind of, of the moment right now is people are asking, is there any SOL sort of upper bounds. In terms of like, let's call, just call it context length for one for of a better word, but you can break it down however you like.Nader: Yeah.swyx: I just think like, well, yeah, I mean, like clearly you can engage in hybrid architectures and throw in some state space models in there.All, all you want, but it looks, still looks very attention heavy.Kyle: Yes. Uh, yeah. Long context is attention heavy. I mean, we have these hybrid models, um,swyx: to take and most, most models like cap out at a million contexts and that's it. Yeah. Like for the last two years has been it.Kyle: Yeah. The model hardware context co-design thing that we're seeing these days is actually super [00:44:00] interesting.It's like my, my passion, like my secret side passion. We see models like Kimmy or G-P-T-O-S-S. I'm use these because I, I know specific things about these models. So Kimmy two comes out, right? And it's an interesting model. It's like, like a deep seek style architecture is MLA. It's basically deep seek, scaled like a little bit differently, um, and obviously trained differently as well.But they, they talked about, why they made the design choices for context. Kimmy has more experts, but fewer attention heads, and I believe a slightly smaller attention, uh, like dimension. But I need to remember, I need to check that. Uh, it doesn't matter. But they discussed this actually at length in a blog post on ji, which is like our pu which is like credit puswyx: Yeah.Kyle: Um, in, in China. Chinese red.swyx: Yeah.Kyle: It's, yeah. So it, it's, it's actually an incredible blog post. Uh, like all the mls people in, in, in that, I've seen that on GPU are like very brilliant, but they, they talk about like the creators of Kimi K two [00:45:00] actually like, talked about it on, on, on there in the blog post.And they say, we, we actually did an experiment, right? Attention scales with the number of heads, obviously. Like if you have 64 heads versus 32 heads, you do half the work of attention. You still scale quadratic, but you do half the work. And they made a, a very specific like. Sort of barter in their system, in their architecture, they basically said, Hey, what if we gave it more experts, so we're gonna use more memory capacity.But we keep the amount of activated experts the same. We increase the expert sparsity, so we have fewer experts act. The ratio to of experts activated to number of experts is smaller, and we decrease the number of attention heads.Vibhu: And kind of for context, what the, what we had been seeing was you make models sparser instead.So no one was really touching heads. You're just having, uh,Kyle: well, they, they did, they implicitly made it sparser.Vibhu: Yeah, yeah. For, for Kimmy. They did,Kyle: yes.Vibhu: They also made it sparser. But basically what we were seeing was people were at the level of, okay, there's a sparsity ratio. You want more total parameters, less active, and that's sparsity.[00:46:00]But what you see from papers, like, the labs like moonshot deep seek, they go to the level of, okay, outside of just number of experts, you can also change how many attention heads and less attention layers. More attention. Layers. Layers, yeah. Yes, yes. So, and that's all basically coming back to, just tied together is like hardware model, co-design, which isKyle: hardware model, co model, context, co-design.Vibhu: Yeah.Kyle: Right. Like if you were training a, a model that was like. Really, really short context, uh, or like really is good at super short context tasks. You may like design it in a way such that like you don't care about attention scaling because it hasn't hit that, like the turning point where like the quadratic curve takes over.Nader: How do you consider attention or context as a separate part of the co-design? Like I would imagine hardware or just how I would've thought of it is like hardware model. Co-design would be hardware model context co-designKyle: because the harness and the context that is produced by the harness is a part of the model.Once it's trained in,Vibhu: like even though towards the end you'll do long context, you're not changing architecture through I see. Training. Yeah.Kyle: I mean you can try.swyx: You're saying [00:47:00] everyone's training the harness into the model.Kyle: I would say to some degree, orswyx: there's co-design for harness. I know there's a small amount, but I feel like not everyone has like gone full send on this.Kyle: I think, I think I think it's important to internalize the harness that you think the model will be running. Running into the model.swyx: Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Bash is like the universal harness,Kyle: right? Like I'll, I'll give. An example here, right? I mean, or just like a, like a, it's easy proof, right? If you can train against a harness and you're using that harness for everything, wouldn't you just train with the harness to ensure that you get the best possible quality out of,swyx: Well, the, uh, I, I can provide a counter argument.Yeah, sure. Which is what you wanna provide a generally useful model for other people to plug into their harnesses, right? So if youKyle: Yeah. Harnesses can be open, open source, right?swyx: Yeah. So I mean, that's, that's effectively what's happening with Codex.Kyle: Yeah.swyx: And, but like you may want like a different search tool and then you may have to name it differently or,Nader: I don't know how much people have pushed on this, but can you.Train a model, would it be, have you have people compared training a model for the for the harness versus [00:48:00] like post training forswyx: I think it's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's okay. Just extra post training. INader: see.swyx: And so, I mean, cognition does this course, it does this where you, you just have to like, if your tool is slightly different, um, either force your tool to be like the tool that they train for.Hmm. Or undo their training for their tool and then Oh, that's re retrain. Yeah. It's, it's really annoying and like,Kyle: I would hope that eventually we hit like a certain level of generality with respect to training newswyx: tools. This is not a GI like, it's, this is a really stupid like. Learn my tool b***h.Like, I don't know if, I don't know if I can say that, but like, you know, um, I think what my point kind of is, is that there's, like, I look at slopes of the scaling laws and like, this slope is not working, man. We, we are at a million token con

What does it actually take to secure a payments company in an era of sophisticated, well-funded cybercriminals? In this first episode of The Trust Advantage Series, brought to you by Payroc, host Greg Myers sits down with David Edwards, Payroc's Senior Vice President of Information Security, for a candid and eye-opening conversation about modern cybersecurity in the payments industry.With 30 years in technology — spanning private banking, retail, and payments — David brings hard-won perspective to the questions keeping payments executives up at night. Sparked by a real-world ransomware attack on a payments company, this episode cuts through the compliance checkbox mentality to explore what genuine, operational security actually looks like.David and Greg cover a wide range of critical topics: why passing audits doesn't equal being secure, how AI has radically changed the phishing threat landscape, the three pillars of identity and vulnerability management, and why resilience — not prevention — is the new gold standard. David also breaks down Payroc's layered approach to ransomware defense, how the company integrates acquired platforms without creating security gaps, and the right questions ISVs, ISOs, banks, and merchants should be asking their payment partners.Whether you're a developer, a risk officer, or a business owner processing transactions, this episode delivers a masterclass in why security isn't just an IT issue — it's everyone's job.

Salesforce Solution Engineers are like general contractors, according to David Young, who leads a team of them at Salesforce. They need skills like carpentry and framing and plumbing but also know when to stop and call in an expert. In the Salesforce world this might be knowing when to bring in a service cloud or an Agentforce expert. They need to know enough to see the business challenge and know who to tap for help.I have always advocated that ISVs spend time thinking about SEs, even moreso than AEs, because the math just maths. AEs have shorter tenure at Salesforce than SEs. AEs have more ISVs reaching out to them than SEs. And AEs might have 1 or 5 accounts in the enterprise, but SEs often support multiple AEs which just multiplies the number of accounts that a single session with you could reach. We cover a bunch of topics, but here is a summary:What does an SE at Salesforce do?What type of person is an SE at Salesforce?How does David decide which ISVs to engage with?How do SEs learn about new ISVs?What are some dos and don'ts when ISVs are engaging with SEs? Shoutout to Myroad.io, who is doing a great job of it.What should an ISV know/do before they are “ready” to engage with Salesforce SEs?How do SEs work with SDOs and IDOs to demo Salesforce's tech?Thanks again to David for sharing with the community!And thank you to Sam Yarborough for the intro. If any of you have a Salesforce AE or RVP that might give us the real talk, it'd be great to get their pov. This episode is brought to you by ISVApp. ISVapp the usage analytics platform built specifically for Salesforce ISV and OEM applications.ISVapp is your central toolbox for reducing churn, increasing renewals, uncovering upsell opportunities, and closing more deals. 

Jack Hirsch, vice president of product at Okta The rise of AI in the workplace is creating a new kind of risk for organizations: shadow AI. Employees can now spin up AI agents that connect directly to emails, files, and business systems—often without IT oversight. These agents can access sensitive data, and without proper controls, they become prime targets for cyberattacks. In this episode of the podcast, we're joined by Jack Hirsch, vice president of product at Okta, to explore what shadow AI is, why it matters for Canadian organizations, and how IT partners can help their customers manage it. Jack discusses Okta's latest tools, which provide real-time visibility into AI agents and their permissions. These capabilities make it easier for security teams to discover unmanaged agents, understand their access, and quickly bring them under identity-based controls. We also touch on regulatory implications, including Canada's proposed Bill C-8, which heightens expectations around cyber risk accountability, access controls, and transparency. As legislation moves forward, organizations will need to prove they understand not just who has access to sensitive systems—but which AI agents do as well. For MSPs and IT resellers, this emerging landscape represents both a challenge and an opportunity. Jack shares insights into how partners can position themselves as trusted advisors for clients navigating AI risk, turning a potentially complex problem into a service opportunity. Tune in to hear why identity management is becoming central to securing the agentic enterprise—and what your customers will need to stay ahead of shadow AI risks. Read Full Transcript Hello and welcome to the ChannelBuzz.ca podcast, bringing news and information to the Canadian IT channel for the last 16 years. I’m Robert Dutt, editor of ChannelBuzz.ca, and as always, your host for the show. Okta has announced a new set of capabilities designed to help organizations uncover and manage a fast-growing risk: shadow AI. As AI tools become easier to use, employees are increasingly creating their own AI agents, connecting them to emails, files, SaaS apps, and internal systems to get work done faster. The problem is that many of these agents are created without security oversight, governance, or clear ownership. Once they’re connected to sensitive systems, they can quietly gain broad access to data, making them attractive targets for attackers and a potential liability for organizations. Okta’s new solution is designed to address that gap. It gives security teams real-time visibility into AI agents across the enterprise, showing which agents exist, what they can access, and what permissions they’ve been granted. Just as importantly, it allows organizations to quickly bring unmanaged or risky agents under identity controls, treating them more like digital employees than anonymous tools. That visibility matters even more in Canada, where proposed legislation like Bill C-8 is raising expectations around cyber risk accountability, access controls, and transparency. As AI becomes embedded into everyday workflows, organizations will be expected to know not just who has access to what sensitive data, but what machines and agents do as well. To unpack what shadow AI really means, why identity has become central to managing AI risk, and what all this creates in terms of opportunity for Canadian IT partners, I’m joined today by Jack Hirsch, Vice President of Product at Okta. Let’s dive in. Robert Dutt: Jack, thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it. Jack Hirsch: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Robert Dutt: It feels like this is a topic that a lot of folks in the channel have been through with different flavors in the past. When you say “shadow X,” it certainly brings up memories of transitions past, but just to level set and set the parameters here, can you give me a quick definition on shadow AI? I almost said shadow IT. Can you give me a quick definition on shadow AI, and why it’s becoming both a security and governance issue? Jack Hirsch: Sure. Well, look, it’s no secret now that AI is changing the shape of how work gets done in the modern era. You have these non-deterministic entities running around, and fundamentally, they’re exciting, they’re interesting on their own, but where they really light up in value, where you start to see efficiency and effectiveness gains from your carbon-based workforces, is when you start connecting them to tools. They need resource access to be truly productive. So AI agents need resource access, and that’s when it can start to get scary, and that’s when shadow AI starts to create a ton of risk for modern organizations. We know that the point of authentication is now much stronger with phishing-resistant auth. However, post-auth security is the primary breach vector for the vast majority of cybersecurity incidents now, meaning the session token’s been cut. There’s access out in the ecosystem, and that’s why shadow AI is terrifying. Unfortunately, the options available to the ecosystem to secure AI and to build it quickly have been not good enough, to put it bluntly. This leaves security leaders with this very, very difficult challenge of moving fast and potentially breaking things and giving away the keys to the kingdom to OpenClaw, or whatever it is that you want to do, or potentially stifling innovation. That’s a really, really difficult spot for security leaders to be in. So yeah, shadow AI is everywhere. The challenges are greater. The stakes have never been higher. Robert Dutt: Yeah, so that’s sort of the problem space. So when employees spin up AI agents and connect them to emails, to files, to internal data, to systems, whatever it may be, I presume most of the problems emerge from unintended consequences, as is so often the case in technology. But what are some of the common ways that sensitive data ends up exposed without anyone really necessarily realizing it, or is that the nature of the problem? Jack Hirsch: Well, look, I think there’s sort of the naive answer, and not to say that it’s easy or trivial. I don’t want to trivialize this, but the naive answer is, “Oh, prompt injection, data leakage, data poisoning. Oh yeah, who knows what the LLM will spit out?” But the actual scarier risk is around inadvertent access and the standing credentials that need to be given to AI agents for them to be productive. If Rob, you and I work at Acme Corp, and we’re working on a project together and we want to spin up an AI agent, whose permissions do we give it? Most of the time now, a security leader is not going to be able to jump in front of every single moving train and slow them. They’ll just say, “Oh yeah, give it a set of static credentials. Give it an API key, but don’t give it Rob’s access. Don’t give it Jack’s access. Give it super user access, and we’ll trust it to do the right thing.” And so you’re giving this untrained, very influenceable, non-deterministic entity the keys to the kingdom. And that’s really the primary risk vector here. And so it’s all an identity and access management problem. Fundamentally, these are identities that need to be discovered. They need to be controlled. They need to be governed. And their access needs to be managed in the same way that their carbon-based peers, us as humans, need to be governed as well. Robert Dutt: So with that framing, it sounds like maybe identity is more important than traditional network or endpoint controls in terms of security in this world, where there are all these agents running around and doing whatever it is, hopefully, we want them to do and potentially what we don’t want them to do. Jack Hirsch: I think this is where the traditional model of endpoint or network or identity-based detection and response falls flat. You can’t keep up with the incredible volume of AI agent activity out in the ecosystem to detect it all. Every single, even approved platforms are now starting to put AI sprinkles throughout their products. And so it’s sort of fighting an uphill battle there. And so the reason this is truly an identity-centric problem is because, again, all those agents need access to resources inside of organizations. And the way that AI grew, and we saw this with how OpenAI and Anthropic and even Google with Gemini, their sort of growth paths were primarily consumer driven. And in a consumer world, it’s really easy. I’m spinning up, I’m literally sitting next to a machine that has a Claude bot spun up in a fully isolated environment, but I’m an individual user in that scenario. And so if I want to give it access, I can just OAuth myself. It’s super easy. And so the authorization mechanism wasn’t really thought about in an enterprise context. And then when you get into an enterprise context, you have individuals that want to do exactly the same thing and access corporate resources. So it really is a new type of identity. We can talk about some of the differences between human and AI agent, but it’s fundamentally an identity and access management problem. These are digital identities, non-human identities that need access to resources within an organization. And you actually see this being recognized by broader standards bodies. So for example, Cross App Access was something that we’ve been working on. It’s a new standard, it’s an extension of the OAuth protocol. And it’s something that we’ve been working on for years, two, three years now at this point. And we reintroduced it to the ecosystem this past summer, summer of 2025. And we introduced it first to ISVs and the people that were sort of around the Okta ecosystem had heard about it before. But then the rest of the ecosystem, the adoption was wild because MCP had become a thing and people were trying to deploy MCP servers and AI agents into their enterprises. And no one, not at the time Anthropic or OpenAI or any of the big model providers, had taken on the challenge of enterprise authorization for AI agents. And so this standard that had been sort of latent and sitting somewhere in an IETF draft for a while got picked up and started gaining a ton of steam. And just in November, right before Anthropic split off MCP and gave it away to the open ecosystem, it got merged into the MCP repo as the new default enterprise authorization mechanism for MCP. And so this isn’t something that’s Okta owned, it’s just a standard that we developed because we are independent. And as such, we are the sort of standard-bearer for the open security ecosystem. We believe that we need to be the rising tide that lifts all ships. And that’s why we develop open standards like Cross App Access. So now, really excited, we’ve taken our own engineers and pushed this authorization code out into the open ecosystem so that many applications start picking up this capability, this new OAuth extension. Robert Dutt: So at a high level, when you talk about the products that you guys are bringing to market, the solutions to address this, at a high level, what kind of new visibility or new insights are you giving organizations that are using these tools that they simply didn’t have before when it comes to discovering AI agents, the privileges they have, and what they’re up to? Jack Hirsch: Yeah. So, I mean, maybe if I can even blow it up further and say, let’s talk about maybe three steps: discovery, then control, and governance. So on the discovery side, there are many ways to discover, let’s date ourselves, shadow IT. There are many ways to discover, right? You can have a browser extension, you can have some sort of endpoint monitoring, you can have network monitoring. You can also check the resources themselves for access. And so we took a, initially, we’re taking a multi-pronged approach to doing the discovery, but we’re doing what we do best, which is integrating into over 8,000 ISVs and checking for resource access. And so who’s accessing these resources? Are they carbon-based? Are they digital-based? And so the first phase of discovery with our ISPM product is being able to see who’s accessing these resources and why. And so that extended very, very nicely to AI agents. And it doesn’t really matter where the AI agents exist, right? It doesn’t matter if they’re part of a larger platform with something like Salesforce and Agentforce, or whether they’re homegrown, built off in some skunkworks team off to the side. Ultimately, when they get access to the resource, we see it. And then you get into the control plane. So that’s just the discovery. Within the control plane, we want to meet our customers where they are. And we know that the vast majority of these things are going to be granted access via static credentials, just the god-mode tokens. And for those, we can harden them. We can effectively bring them under management. We can bring those credentials under management. We can observe them. We can rotate them. We can observe for anomalous behavior, et cetera. And so that’s like what you would consider a traditional PAM use case or maybe a modern IGA use case. But then also with control, we give Cross App Access, which is a new mechanism that extends the amazing innovation that was OAuth and OAuth scopes, basically extending that to say, instead of checking with the end user for access to this resource, we can set policy. Now the IDP can set policy to control access to those resources. And then to close the loop, there’s governance. And so standard governance flow, and actually I don’t even want to say standard governance flow because governance historically has this GRC compliance lens, but it’s very much a security-forward technology here. When you get to the state where you need to govern these identities and their access, we can run access certs in the exact same way based on whether or not they’re human or non-human. And so every one of those agentic identities gets pulled into Okta’s Universal Directory. All of their access is controlled. All of it is governed. We still gather the same risk signal and risk pattern behavior from the Identity Threat Protection product. And that’s, I wish I could say that 10 years ago, we knew we were building an identity security fabric, this new category of product that’s going to cover every identity use case, every resource type, and every user type. However, that was the strategy, not knowing that AI agents were going to be born in the 2020s. And it just makes it so that we are really well positioned to capitalize on this opportunity. And it gives us a very novel approach to how we secure AI in a way that, it’s because we have this unified identity security fabric. A basket of tools that don’t talk to each other, if you have a disparate IAM and IGA and PAM set of tools, in theory, you could stitch it all together, but you end up with higher costs and worse security outcomes. And so we actually took a much harder approach to market. And this is many years ago. Again, this predates the rise of AI agents, but we decided that we were not going to take an acquisitive strategy where we just bolt on a bunch of things and call them a “platform” in air quotes. And your order form would look like a drugstore receipt. And so you’re not buying a list of products that happen to be on the same order form because we want to satisfy a CFO. We’re taking an approach that we want to drive end-to-end identity security outcomes for CISOs and IT leaders. So we’re doing the hard work deeply integrating these products across the fabric so that we can truly secure every identity, every use case, and every resource type. Robert Dutt: Close to home here in Canada, we have a proposed Bill C-8 on the table. It’s raising expectations around visibility, around access control, accountability, risk, all of these things. I know there are similar ideas out there in terms of government around the world. How does legislation along these lines change the conversation for IT leaders, especially around the topic of shadow AI? Jack Hirsch: So look, I am such a fan of this type of regulation because it pushes… When we enter highly regulated markets, regardless of where they are, and we can talk about C-8, I think it really does align with our identity security fabric narrative and what we’re angling for. But fundamentally, what we’re talking about is trust. If I’m not mistaken, C-8 talks about resilience and reliability. Okta has industry leading availability and resilience. We proudly espouse our four nines of availability, but in reality, it’s much higher. And we target much higher. With the launch of our cell in Canada, and we can talk about the nature of that launch, but with the launch of our cell in Canada, we not only get multi-region disaster recovery, but we get Enhanced Disaster Recovery, which is a product that I really wanted to call Instant DR, because it’s a DNS flip, but the lawyers didn’t like that. So it’s Enhanced Disaster Recovery. And so when you’re talking about resilience and reliability and running critical infrastructure, fundamentally, identity is critical infrastructure. We support governments, financial services, militaries, supply chain logistics with organizations like FedEx, healthcare. And so maybe bringing it back to C-8, data residency, check, highly invested, especially with de-globalization pressures around the world. Supply chain governance, super, super important for us to maintain our independent posture here and to say, look, it doesn’t matter whether you’re buying from a monolithic platform or an independent provider of identity security. We are invested in making sure that your entire enterprise is secure. And so just the same way FedRAMP was a standard-bearer and STIGs in the US were standard-bearers, or IRAP was pushing us in the right direction in Australia, or ISMAP in Japan, I think C-8 is a very, very welcome change. I think it highlights the need for robust identity security and it should put identity at the foundation of every security leader’s agenda this year. Robert Dutt: Well, these pieces of legislation are still in the process and we can look forward. This is likely to see the light of day in some shape or another, but there’s still that sort of sense of maybe we should wait and see. I guess what I’m getting at is what’s the danger or the risk involved in waiting until regulations are finalized, on the books and in place, before starting to take action? Jack Hirsch: So let’s just say at a personal level, I am not into promoting scare tactics. I know that it is very common in the security space for colors to be red. Our colors are blue. That’s not our vibe at Okta. And so look, every organization has their own risk barometer. What I can say is the vast majority of breaches stem from some form of attack on identity. The vast majority of breaches, the implications of having a data breach, oftentimes they go, I think the average time to detection for a data breach is somewhere just shy of 300 days. And so you’re talking about millions of dollars in damages, huge reputational hit. And there are scenarios, and I will not point to any recent security incidents that might have impacted large swaths of the industry, but not Okta. But I’ll just say the reason is because we believe strongly that having a lower risk profile should be easier, should be more elegant. People come to Okta not because of the, “Oh, you get it all done by the CLI.” Yeah, you can, but it’s elegant. It’s intuitive. It’s easier to use. It de-complexifies the world of identity security. I’m sitting in front of my notepad here to take notes, and one of our product principles is productizing best practices. And so we want to make it easier for organizations to reduce their risk profile and make the end user experience elegant and memorable when it needs to be, and disappear into the background when it shouldn’t be memorable. And so with that, look, I would advise everyone go down the rabbit hole. Just look at recent breaches. Look at how widely pervasive these breaches are. Look how easy it is to go after a phish, to buy a phishing kit on the dark web, and see the types of organizations that get hit by these and it’s everyone. And so whether you’re waiting for legislation to be imposed to drive the standards or you are just looking to have an appropriate barometer of risk for your organization, you shouldn’t have to choose between ease of use and cost and lower risk and greater security. And so I would just say everyone’s going to be on their own journey. I’m not a salesperson. I’m on the product team. But I fundamentally think that identity is one of the pillars of Zero Trust. I believe that it should be. It’s foundational. It is the foundation. If I had nothing else to do, if I were starting my own company today and I wanted to build a security practice for my company to manage our organizational risk, it would start with identity, 110%. Robert Dutt: We’ve taken sort of a general market-wide view of the technology problem and now of the regulatory side of things. This is a podcast for IT solution providers. So sort of going with that “if I were starting a business today” line that you just started there, for MSPs and resellers, where do you see the biggest opportunity to help customers get ahead of shadow AI, both in terms of reducing customer risk and in terms of new services, new types of services that they can bring to market? Jack Hirsch: I’ll take it in two parts. One is just you can’t control what you don’t see. And so for VARs and MSPs and sort of operators in the technology ecosystem, I would say look at Okta’s ISPM product. It is amazing what you learn by wiring it. And it’s not just for Okta as an IDP. It’ll wire into any IDP. It will wire into multiple IDPs. It’ll wire into over 300 SCIM-based apps because it’s wired into the Okta Integration Network, and there’s a large set of SCIM apps that work natively with ISPM. And just see what you can find. I optimized my life, my product world for hugs and high fives. And I’ll never forget, I’m sure this person knows exactly who they are. It was a security leader in Australia, ran out of their office after trying ISPM during a merger and they used it to reduce risk during the merger as they were establishing a trust relationship between their organizations. And it basically made this person look like a superstar in front of their C-suite and board because it was like the entire risk burndown chart for their entire M&A transaction to establish the technical risk barometer. So I would just say ISPM is an incredible starting point. A+, highly recommend. You can’t control what you can’t see. And then I think on the second part, of course ISPM will discover AI as well. And then the second part is just, I wouldn’t lose sight of the experience. And so making sure that you’re creating an elegant experience by your choice of products, not only for the admins that you might work directly with or the leadership that might be engaging with you, but also for the end users. And knowing when tools should be elegant, easy to use, easy to configure, and when they should just sort of fade into the background. That’s ultimately what we work on at Okta. It’s our strong conviction from a product standpoint, that it needs to be an absolutely elegant, unmatched user experience for partners, for admins, for end users, and for customers. Robert Dutt: I think we’ve gone over a lot of the territory that I wanted to go over, but just to kind of bring things home, looking ahead over the balance of 2026 or into the first half of next year, what do you think are going to be the biggest mistakes that organizations might make when it comes to agents and identity? And what can solution providers be doing now to make sure their customers don’t make those mistakes? Jack Hirsch: This is an easy one. I think there’s sort of two categories of mistakes. One is getting worried because everything is moving so fast, getting that sort of analysis paralysis to say, “I’m going to see where it shakes out. How important is this AI thing?” Or even if you’re an AI bull, waiting to see who the winners and losers are before you establish any sort of program around it. That’s, I think, one big category of things not to do. I would say, go after it immediately. The capabilities you need are already out there. They might be newer. They might feel a little bit less familiar. But again, ultimately, these are identities that need access to your corporate resources. So I think that is one big category. The other big category is, I would not look at point solutions for this. Anyone that is saying, “We’re going to secure your AI.” That’s great. But what is an AI? It’s an identity. It can be a resource in some scenarios, right? With agent-to-agent, agents acting as resources, but ultimately they’re just identities. That’s for the identity nerds. Sorry. Just as a caveat for the identity nerds out there like myself. But fundamentally, you need a unified platform that gives you that unified view of core access management, core governance, core privileged access, brings all of those identities, whether it be human or non-human, into a single directory and can discover them, can control them, can govern them. And it shouldn’t matter whether they were built by your users, by third parties, by partners, by your supply chain contractors. That unified identity security fabric will deliver comprehensive security and it should be deeply orchestrated into any technology stack. And those products already exist, and it just so happens that Okta is building a reference implementation. Robert Dutt: Works out well for you then, doesn’t it? Jack Hirsch: It does. Robert Dutt: I appreciate your taking the time, Jack. It’s been an interesting conversation and it’s a fascinating and ever-evolving area. Jack Hirsch: Thank you very much. All right. Thanks, Rob. And thanks everyone. Appreciate the time. There you have it, a look at shadow AI through an identity lens with Jack Hirsch from Okta. I’d like to thank Jack for joining us for the show and thank you for listening today. The podcast will be back in your feed tomorrow as we take a look at the launch of Lexful, an AI-first documentation tool for MSPs that boasts, if you can believe it, a robotic channel chief. We’ll find out all about that tomorrow. You’ll want to be sure to catch that, so please subscribe to or follow the podcast in your podcast app of choice. And if it allows you to do so, please consider leaving a rating or review of the show. Until tomorrow, I’m Robert Dutt for ChannelBuzz.ca and I’ll see you in the channel.

Subscribe to our Newsletter:https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ The Shift from Attention to Trust In this compelling episode, Ashleigh Vogstad, CEO of Transcends, joins Vince Menzione to discuss the tectonic shifts occurring in the global partner ecosystem. Ashleigh shares her firsthand experiences studying AI at Oxford, the rise of the “Trust Economy,” and the controversial Amazon vs. Perplexity lawsuit. They dive deep into the practicalities of becoming a “Frontier Firm,” the importance of building proprietary AI agents, and the ways Gen Z and AI-driven marketplaces are revolutionizing the buyer journey. Whether you are looking to win Microsoft Partner of the Year or navigate the demise of traditional SaaS, this conversation provides a strategic roadmap for leading through the AI revolution. Key Takeaways The economy is shifting from a focus on human attention to a foundation of verified trust. Future commerce will involve “selling to machines” as AI agents begin making purchasing decisions on behalf of humans. Microsoft is prioritizing “Frontier Firms” that integrate AI into every customer interaction and internal process. Gen Z buyers are prioritizing product value and “dupes” over traditional brand names, with 75% of buyers expected to be Gen Z by 2030. To win Partner of the Year, organizations must publicly celebrate “better together” stories with validated customer wins. Modern leaders should transition from a “growth mindset” to a “frontier mindset” to keep pace with rapid technological change. https://youtu.be/xJmd43NvfnI If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags Trust Economy, Selling to Machines, Amazon vs Perplexity Lawsuit, Frontier Firm, AI Agents, Copilot Studio, Anthropic Claude, Microsoft Partner of the Year, B2B Marketplaces, Gen Z Buyer Behavior, Digital Freedom, AI Therapy, Ray Kurzweil Singularity, Substack Growth, Co-selling Partnerships, MCI Funding, Azure Accelerate, Agentic AI, Transcending Tech, Ashleigh Vogstad. Transcript Asleigh Vogstad Audio Podcast [00:00:00] Ashleigh Vogstad: The attention economy is about selling to human beings. Now, if you look at something like the Amazon versus Perplexity lawsuit, the whole underlying premise is around the shift of no longer selling to humans directly, but of selling to machines. [00:00:19] Vince Menzione: We just finished Ultimate Partners Winter Retreat here in beautiful Boca to a sold out crowd. Today I’m joined by Ashley Waad. The CEO of transcends for this compelling discussion. Ash, welcome back to the podcasts. [00:00:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s so good to be here, Vince. Thank you. Uh, [00:00:37] Vince Menzione: so well, we’re back in Boca again and we were just here yesterday for the Ultimate Partner Executive Winter Retreat in person. [00:00:44] Vince Menzione: What a great event we had together. [00:00:46] Ashleigh Vogstad: It was phenomenal. Thank you so much for having us there and on stage and, and genuinely the community is like a family, so seeing so many familiar faces and spending some quality time was just great. [00:00:57] Vince Menzione: It has really, truly become like family. It really, I’m, I’m, I’m having so much fun with this and getting to watch. [00:01:04] Vince Menzione: Not just our business grow and our community grow, but to see all of our friends and, uh, organizations like Transcends that have been with us since the beginning, since the very first ultimate partner acting even before the first ultimate partner. And, uh. We were just talking about. I’d love to catch up with what you’ve been doing. [00:01:22] Vince Menzione: Like you just came, you’ve been on a whirlwind. I mean, you’re always, every time like it’s, where’s Ash? She’s, uh, she’s on a plane again, or she’s on, she’s on the slopes. But tell us where you were just this week. [00:01:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. The week started in a snowstorm, actually transporting myself from Whistler. I didn’t know if I would make it to the airport, but then down to Silicon Valley and [00:01:45] Vince Menzione: Nice. [00:01:46] Ashleigh Vogstad: Wow, that place is just inspiring and eyeopening. I mean, seeing the Nvidia campus, a MD, it’s really just other worldly and it had me reflecting on, it’s [00:02:00] Vince Menzione: not Whistler. Yeah, it’s [00:02:02] Ashleigh Vogstad: definitely not Whistler. Definitely not Whistler [00:02:05] Vince Menzione: about, [00:02:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: um, yeah, it just had me reflecting on being down there. I used to spend a lot of time in the Valley around 2017 and. [00:02:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: In this theme of AI and kind of what’s really coming, I was, I was thinking about, I had met this woman, Julia Moss Bridge, who’s a neuroscientist studying ai. She had a project called Loving Ai, and I was down there when they had borrowed Sophia, this humanoid robot from S and Robotics. [00:02:32] Vince Menzione: Oh yes. Yes. [00:02:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: Really interesting. [00:02:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: Sophia’s actually a citizen of Saudi. Mm-hmm. First, first robot to actually be made citizen of a country. So they had Sophia set up and the part that was just mind boggling at the time was that Sophia was hosting in real life therapy sessions with actual human beings sitting across the table. And what really struck me as. [00:02:59] Ashleigh Vogstad: Kind of just, you know, that was only eight, nine years ago. And that was esoteric. Wacky and [00:03:05] Vince Menzione: eerie. [00:03:05] Ashleigh Vogstad: Weird. [00:03:05] Vince Menzione: Eerie at the time. [00:03:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: Incredibly eerie. Yeah. I mean, a, a human getting, uh, you know, therapy sessions from a robot sitting across the table. Yeah. And it just had me thinking how far we’ve come today. In 2025, Harvard Business Review said that therapy is actually the number one use case for ai. [00:03:26] Vince Menzione: I’ve heard that. That is striking. I go back to COVID. We were having this conversation last night at at the dinner for the Ultimate Partner event, and I think that COVID allowed us to transcend, [00:03:42] Ashleigh Vogstad: mm-hmm. [00:03:42] Vince Menzione: No pun intended there, but actually accelerate where we are today, that the acceptance of AI and the acceleration, or the ability to accept change so quickly. [00:03:56] Vince Menzione: Started with COVID because we were so, so we were forced on whatever it was, March 10th I think, here in the United States to shut down everything and move to this remote life. [00:04:08] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm-hmm. [00:04:09] Vince Menzione: And I think we’ve been shocked by that. I think our systems have all been shocked by that. And then here comes chat GBT in November of 2022 and we’re like. [00:04:20] Vince Menzione: Shocked in some respects, but like really everyone has embraced it in such a strong way, and now we’re getting. It’s almost daily update. You know, we’re gonna talk, I know we’re gonna talk about Anthropic and some of the things that’s been happening just in this last month that are striking and changing that have a lot of organizations trying to navigate, which is what, you know, you, you help organizations do. [00:04:43] Vince Menzione: But it feels like this is happening so fast and will continue to happen so fast. And as I said yesterday, I don’t know what this world’s gonna look like by 2030. [00:04:53] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, and I think the thing is, is that nobody knows what the world is gonna look like in 2030. I’ve been reading Ray Kurz Well’s, the Singularity is nearer, so the original book, the Singularity is near and he’s known to be a very accurate predictionist on the future. [00:05:11] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. But even with someone like that, you know, there, there nobody really knows what the world is gonna look like. And when you talk about COVID. At transcends, we have a value of digital freedom. So I founded the business in 2018, which was pre COVID. I as a fully remote organization, and at the time that was, you know, more groundbreaking, but then very quickly with CI that, that became the so-called new normal. [00:05:37] Ashleigh Vogstad: But we’re always thinking about. You know, remote first doesn’t mean remote only, and I think in this tide of what you’ve talked about, technological change being more acceptable and the pace of change. One of the interesting things that we see as a go-to-market agency is that in-person events are increasing. [00:05:56] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:05:57] Ashleigh Vogstad: People want and crave the face-to-face. Just like with the ultimate partner series. [00:06:02] Vince Menzione: I felt it. So it was striking yesterday. It, it seems like it’s, again, this was event number nine for us, but to see the, um, uh, receptiveness isn’t the right term, but it was this, uh, people, the, the embracing. Of seeing each other and hugging each other and being in the same room with each other. [00:06:22] Vince Menzione: And even people that didn’t know each other, like by the, the, as the day evolved, this, uh, connection that they all seemed to have with one another during the sessions and participating, everyone actively participated in the sessions. And, um, I said this in the beginning, we’re not a Slack channel and we’re not like some post on LinkedIn. [00:06:43] Vince Menzione: Uh, we’re there, there’s no playbook that’s set today around partnerships or even go to markets and marketing that we could espouse and say, this is the playbook for the next year. Right. It’s, it’s changing so rapidly. [00:06:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: So rapidly, [00:06:57] Vince Menzione: and you’ve embraced it. And I, and what we’re gonna talk about right now, I mean, I, I, you know, you’ve embraced AI in such a strong way. [00:07:04] Vince Menzione: Um, personally and with your business, I want to, I wanna dive in here a little bit. First of all, a couple things For those of those who are listening who don’t know you, I think maybe just a moment about transcends and your role, and then I wanna dive in on how you’re thinking about ai because I know you’re doing some things personally. [00:07:22] Vince Menzione: I want you to share that with, with our listeners and viewers today. [00:07:25] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, great. And I just wanna comment that it was a cool moment yesterday being up on stage with yourself and Mark Monday from ServiceNow and having the audience so engaged and active and Nina Harding from Microsoft stepping up and entering the conversation. [00:07:40] Vince Menzione: So cool. [00:07:41] Ashleigh Vogstad: It just made for such a collaborative experience, which was a cool moment, but yeah. Um, so. I founded this business, transcends a go-to-market agency after being at Microsoft myself. And really our differentiation is deep strategic partnerships with hyperscalers, whether that’s AWS, Google, Microsoft, and you know, that. [00:08:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: It comes with a challenge to be on the leading edge of technology. [00:08:08] Vince Menzione: Yes, [00:08:09] Ashleigh Vogstad: it, it’s really an imperative for our business and we are an AI first firm. Microsoft talks a lot about Frontier Firm, and I’ll take a, a different kind of angle on it. You know, when I think about Frontier. I now think about it as instead of the growth mindset, I now think about a frontier mindset. [00:08:28] Vince Menzione: Frontier mindset. You have to change my principles. [00:08:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, maybe, like you said, the world is changing so rapidly. Yeah, it’s [00:08:36] Vince Menzione: changing rapidly. [00:08:36] Ashleigh Vogstad: And what a frontier mindset means is that as we’re approaching work for our clients, we are thinking about AI innovation in every single customer. Interaction, customer innovation. [00:08:49] Ashleigh Vogstad: So today we’re building AI agents into much of the work that we’re delivering for clients. And as a business owner and leader, I’ve been challenged to also think critically around how I’m choosing to run the company. And right now we’re going through a huge overhaul of where we have data sitting in silos and different applications. [00:09:09] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yep. And getting that into one place with one view so we can start layering on more insight. AI innovation. [00:09:17] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And data’s such an critical part, part of this, as we, we talked about yesterday. But you know, even the, what you said, which is, would, would’ve been striking a year ago to say, we’re an AI first, uh, agency isn’t as striking anymore. [00:09:32] Vince Menzione: Uh, we heard Nina when we were having this conversation on stage yesterday, say that it’s an imperative at Microsoft that the agencies that they choose to work with, the third party vendors that they work with have to be an AI first organization. I have to be a frontier firm, and so I’m a, I am sensitive to the word frontier firm. [00:09:53] Vince Menzione: I understand why Microsoft uses it and I understand the value of what we used to call, you know, customer zero or back in the day we used to say eating your own dog food, but essentially being an organization that has leaned in, in a way, and with ai. Even more so, so important to do it. So tell us, I know you’ve done some things personally as well, but tell, tell us what you’ve done with the organization. [00:10:18] Vince Menzione: Uh, you talked about data and making data available and having, having a true data state as opposed to silos of data, but then you also made some personal investments and sacrifices. I would say. [00:10:30] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. [00:10:30] Vince Menzione: Yeah. In terms of what you’re doing around ai, [00:10:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: so I mean, let’s start on the personal side. I’m the CEO of my organization, and you can read in books or news articles that it is critical for AI transformation to start at the C-suite and specifically in the CEO seat. [00:10:46] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:10:46] Ashleigh Vogstad: And that really. Landed for me and so I’m personally leading in About two weeks ago, I built an agent, just end-to-end on my own, got into copilot studio. Wow. Got comfortable with the interface. You know, I was clunky moving around in there at first, chose my model. You know, I went with one of the anthropic Claude models for this particular project and built up an agent that can deliver executive communications like. [00:11:14] Ashleigh Vogstad: Thought leadership blogs, uh, LinkedIn posts, but in a particular human being’s voice by ingesting things like their social profiles, their SharePoint sites, where they live and work. And it has been so surprising doing an ab test between just what a chat GBT or a copilot could produce. [00:11:32] Yeah. [00:11:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: In comparison with the authenticity of the voice coming from the agent. [00:11:37] Ashleigh Vogstad: Uh, it was just a really cool experience to roll up the sleeves and get in there. But also I think the, the investment that you’re referring to is, I made a big decision to return to school and uh, got accepted to go to Oxford. [00:11:52] Vince Menzione: Wow. [00:11:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: And I’m studying artificial intelligence there. [00:11:54] Vince Menzione: That is incredible. That is incredible. [00:11:57] Vince Menzione: Oxford, uh, we’ve heard of that school before here in the United States. [00:12:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, it’s been a really great experience. It’s in person, so I’m traveling there about every 60 to 90 days and living on campus. I mean, really, Oxford isn’t. Formally a campus, it’s sort of a, a city and a university all, all ruled into one and the experience has been really powerful. [00:12:21] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yes. One of the things I wanted to get outta the program was a more global perspective, and it’s been fascinating to me that about half the faculty so far, or or professors, guest lecturers that have been coming into the program have been from China or very direct experience working in the Chinese market. [00:12:38] Vince Menzione: That is fascinating. [00:12:39] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s been a completely different view. Or for example, you know, really digging into some of the legal cases that are driving precedence for how AI is interacting with corporations. [00:12:51] Vince Menzione: Mm. [00:12:51] Ashleigh Vogstad: One of the big ones for me has been looking at Amazon versus p perplexity. This is still a live case that’s happening right now. [00:12:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: And you know, I think it was Forbes magazine that the headline was the End of Commerce for this case because it’s really about. How human beings are being replaced with machines and hearing some of the world’s leading thinkers, leading AI researchers on these topics has just been really expansive. [00:13:19] Vince Menzione: It’s fascinating. [00:13:20] Vince Menzione: I mean, it’s, this started a couple years ago with, uh, Hollywood, in fact. Suing the industry or suing the technology companies with regards to, uh, employment, right? Mm-hmm. About the, the, uh, copyright infringement and what’s gonna happen in the entertainment industry. And I think that was just a one very small example. [00:13:40] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, voice people think about DeepFakes. Yeah. And they think about video, but actually voice is a big issue. And you look at the, um, you know, the what happened between Scarlett Johansson and her voice in her, and then open AI rolling out a voice that sounded identical. Sounds like her. [00:13:59] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:13:59] Ashleigh Vogstad: To Scarlett Johansen and, and where that went. [00:14:01] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s, it, this is a new ground for, for everybody that we’re going through right now. [00:14:07] Vince Menzione: It is. We can dive and go in so many different directions, but let’s talk about marketing and advertising since that’s kind of. Transcends core, and a lot of the people that watch and listen to us are in the partnership world. [00:14:22] Vince Menzione: They’re leading organizations, they own organizations, the the chief executives or CVPs of organizations. Let’s talk about advertising and where that’s going. [00:14:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, great. [00:14:33] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:14:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: I mean, uh, I love Marshall McCluen. He’s a Canadian theor, uh, media theorist, and in 1964, he very famously said, the medium is the message. [00:14:43] Ashleigh Vogstad: And what that really means when you peel back the layers is that every type of communication medium has these inherent biases. And I think what we’re experiencing right now is this new medium of artificial intelligence, and I’m really interested in exploring what that means for the media world. So. If I gonna take you back to 1997, there’s this really famous, the Innovator’s Dilemma. [00:15:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yes. Kind of a classic business 1 0 1 type book by Clayton Christensen. Yes. And he talks about this theory of disruption where new technologies, emerging technologies start at the low end of the market. They gain this momentum and they eventually displace incumbents. And you know, sometimes seemingly out of nowhere. [00:15:28] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And Microsoft was a good example of this at that time. [00:15:32] Ashleigh Vogstad: Def, [00:15:32] Vince Menzione: yeah. [00:15:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: All the big players. All the big players. I mean, Google go for search as well, right? So that’s one of the classic examples. And so. If we look at storytelling technology, you have things like chat, GBT and Sora entering the scene. And in the beginning, you know, they’re producing a shitty first draft. [00:15:51] Ashleigh Vogstad: Uh, you know, it’s things like post-apocalyptic dogs with five finger human beings. Yeah. Things like this. But, you know, and they really lacked emotional resonance. But as we all know. That’s not the case anymore. No, it’s [00:16:05] Vince Menzione: not. [00:16:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: AI is increasingly producing content that is very powerful and is starting to resonate with people. [00:16:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, I’m definitely not a neuroscientist, but if we, we look into the neuroscience, it’s your cortical sal circuit that. Kind of is responsible for pattern recognition and it compares what you’re seeing in the real world with what you expect to see. So when you take this into a space of advertising, you know, if there’s an ad that is AI generated, that is just weird and kind of. [00:16:38] Ashleigh Vogstad: Tweaking for you. [00:16:39] Vince Menzione: Like that robot we were talking about earlier, [00:16:41] Ashleigh Vogstad: like the robot we were Exactly, yeah. Like Sophia, you enter what psychologists call the uncanny valley, so it’s like what you’re looking at isn’t exactly what you’re expecting to see and the Spidey sense is, is tweaking. You know, that’s a low place of emotional resonance. [00:16:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: This world is changing really, really quickly and we’re seeing AI generated media make huge impacts in the market Now, tools like Luma Dream Machine, I mean, it’s incredible what they can achieve today. [00:17:11] Vince Menzione: It’s fascinating. We see it in, you know, I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. That’s sort of the world of our business community, and you can very easily detect when someone is doing a post. [00:17:22] Vince Menzione: Or they’re writing an art, whatever they’re doing. Right. Some type of draft of something. Uh, and you can tell when it’s ai, I mean, it’s so easy to tell, and even people are generating reports and claiming that their research papers or studies or whatever they call them, uh, and it’s AI generated and it’s just the authenticity isn’t there. [00:17:39] Vince Menzione: The, the sense that this is real. That it can be trusted is not there. And I think trust is what we’re talking about here too, as well. [00:17:47] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. I mean, let’s go to authenticity ’cause that’s super important. Yeah. And I know a lot of your listeners, you come from the hyperscaler world of partnerships. You need to have that differentiated, better together story. [00:17:59] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. It’s really important to have an authentic voice in market. And I think about that also in terms of platforms and channels. We’re seeing a decrease in certain major social media platforms, and yet Substack spiked 48% in monthly active users last month. [00:18:15] Vince Menzione: That’s [00:18:16] fascinating. [00:18:16] Ashleigh Vogstad: Um, you know, and I think that one of the reasons is it’s viewed as a more authentic channel where you’re getting thought leadership from people that you’re, you know, genuinely interested in hearing their, their points of view. [00:18:28] Ashleigh Vogstad: And I think that’s really an important piece in here. [00:18:31] Vince Menzione: Yeah, you mentioned this yesterday and you had me thinking about it as well because we have used LinkedIn for everything internally, our newsletter, which has been around for six or seven years now. But that Substack is really, and I go to Substack too, to, if I really wanna dig in on a topic. [00:18:47] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:18:47] Vince Menzione: And there’s a particular author that I like their point of view, I’ll follow, I’ll follow them on Substack. [00:18:53] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. I mean, and this comes, maybe brings us around to who is the buyer and who is the audience, and who do we need to be thinking about when we’re designing sales and marketing programs. And really we’re, we’re shifting into the place of the Gen Z buyer by 20 30, 70 5% of buyers are gonna be Gen Z. [00:19:12] Ashleigh Vogstad: They’re gonna control 12 trillion in. Spend [00:19:16] Vince Menzione: by 2030. ’cause we, we’ve been, we’ve been saying that the millennial is the new buyer the last three years. I think Jay said it right here at this stage. [00:19:23] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:19:24] Vince Menzione: Um, so now it’s Gen Z. [00:19:27] Ashleigh Vogstad: And they’re buying online. Yeah, they’re buying in marketplaces. Yeah. So a stat recently was that roughly half of them made purchases on the social platforms of YouTube, Instagram, or TikTok in the last month. [00:19:39] Ashleigh Vogstad: I mean, that buyer behavior of being inside. Social type application and directly making a purchase. And I think in the B2B world, we need to take lessons from here and start thinking more front and center than we even have been around marketplaces. I mean, part of my reason for being in Silicon Valley this week was to celebrate a $12 million transaction that happened via Marketplace and two years ago that would’ve been a huge deal. [00:20:06] Ashleigh Vogstad: Huge, [00:20:07] Vince Menzione: huge. [00:20:07] Ashleigh Vogstad: And, and it still is a really big deal, but these things are becoming. More and more common experiences. Very much so. We need to be there and in that conversation. [00:20:16] Vince Menzione: So how are you thinking about it? How are you directing your clients to behave or act around it? What are you, what are you doing exactly that we could take to this community perhaps and share with them. [00:20:28] Ashleigh Vogstad: I’ll bring it back to the authenticity piece because you need to have a product that delivers value first and foremost. There is, there is no substitution for that. Yeah, and what I would say is. One of my professors at Oxford, Eric Zow, he has this theory that I’m really digging into and finding very fascinating, which is that for the last several decades we’ve been in the attention economy, and that’s shifting to the trust economy. [00:20:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: Now the attention economy is about selling to human beings. Yeah. It’s about the, the business model is essentially that you need human being eyeballs on lists of recommendation links. Yeah. Whether that’s from Google or from, you know, searching, shopping on Amazon, you get this list of recommendation links and the economic engine that drives that business model is advertising. [00:21:19] Ashleigh Vogstad: Now, if you look at something like the Amazon versus Perplexity lawsuit, the whole underlying premise is around the shift of no longer selling to humans directly, but of selling to machines, or in other words, agents who are making purchases, s on behalf on your behalf. And an agent isn’t going to be razzle dazzled by some inauthentic story. [00:21:44] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:21:44] Ashleigh Vogstad: They’re gonna be looking for third party validation on Exactly. You know, they need to be sure that they’re making the right decision. [00:21:51] Vince Menzione: They’re gonna look at surveys, they’re gonna look at customer comments. Like if I went through my Amazon site and I was looking to see what people said about the purchase or the product and specifically Exactly. [00:22:01] Vince Menzione: The agent’s gonna do this on my behalf, is what you’re saying. [00:22:04] Ashleigh Vogstad: This is what I’m saying. Yeah. And, and. I believe that to layer on top of, you know, Eric Z’s philosophy, I’ve been thinking about this in terms of the hyperscaler world, and I think that this is the time to lean into co-selling partnerships. [00:22:18] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, because being third party validated by somebody like AWS Microsoft and having all that co-sell data, what are your recent wins? Yes, that’s really high integrity, trusted data source for an agent to make a purchasing decision, and marketplaces are a key part of that. [00:22:35] Vince Menzione: So we’ll move from AI will take a, a more active role in the marketplace. [00:22:40] Ashleigh Vogstad: I definitely believe so. [00:22:42] Vince Menzione: Which makes total sense. I, you know, we’ve been doing this for nine or 10 years now, and when I was at Microsoft, we started co-selling. In fact, it was, uh, Aaron Feiger was up on stage yesterday talking about it. Right? January of 2016, co-selling began. [00:22:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:22:56] Vince Menzione: And there were only a few companies doing it. [00:22:59] Vince Menzione: Right. So she worked with one of the very first ones that were doing it. Uh, the challenge we have today is there are tens of thousands of partner organizations in the marketplace that are all trying to get the attention of the Microsoft sellers. Hmm. As, or the Google sellers or the AWS sellers and tell their story. [00:23:19] Vince Menzione: And a seller only has so many minutes in a day, they have a quota that they have to hit. These quotas are tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars of annual quota of cloud consumption. And I wanna sell my $50,000 widget, whatever it is. Yeah. Right. And I, I don’t understand why I’m not getting a callback. [00:23:38] Vince Menzione: And this, this is the dilemma we’ve faced because of, because of this, uh, scarcity of time and this over overwhelming of tech, you know. Tech, tech buyers trying to make this all happen, so now the AI can come in and help me solve for it as a seller, right? [00:23:55] Ashleigh Vogstad: The AI is definitely acting as an interface to make recommendations to field sellers in different organizations and. [00:24:04] Ashleigh Vogstad: To, to kind of take this on a, a tangent. Dupes. So a dupe. I know people of my generation, we’d think about this like a knockoff Right. You know, a knockoff handbag. [00:24:15] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:24:15] Ashleigh Vogstad: Dupes have exploded. [00:24:16] Vince Menzione: Fake. Fake Rolexes. [00:24:18] Ashleigh Vogstad: Exactly. The fake Rolex for sure. And I think it was in December, P WC rolled out a survey. 81% of Gen Z were planning to purchase a dupe this holiday season. [00:24:29] Vince Menzione: That’s wild. [00:24:30] Ashleigh Vogstad: Dupes can be, you know, we gave luxury, good examples, but Louis [00:24:34] Vince Menzione: Vuitton and yeah. So, [00:24:35] Ashleigh Vogstad: but furniture, these sorts of things. And the important takeaway here for tech is the same principle will land, is that people are looking for value out of a product, not necessarily a name brand. AI is accelerating this whole process, and agents are gonna be looking at the same thing. [00:24:56] Ashleigh Vogstad: They’re looking for that authenticity in terms of the actual product value. So, you know, beware there’s lots of disruption happening in the market right now with this dupe mentality, which is actually a cultural shift talking about I appreciate value over a superficial. Brand name. In some cases, there’s also a, a small contrary trend where certain luxury goods are rising because yes, things are never that simple. [00:25:22] Vince Menzione: So you work with a lot of these tech companies, a lot of SaaS companies, is we, we call them ISVs, we also call them, uh, software development companies. Now we keep changing these acronyms around. Uh, there’s been a lot of, uh, consternation in that segment, I would say, around ai. Right, because a lot of them are getting told that they’ll be outta business in a few years. [00:25:43] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. I think Satya Nadella famously said this last year that SAS will go away. Right? He’s predicting the demise. How do you help some of these organizations to differentiate? And there’s some of these are huge value organizations. We have have them in the room with us, ServiceNow and Veeam and Adobe. [00:26:01] Vince Menzione: Um, how do you help them achieve their results? ’cause that’s what you, you know, your organization is really helping these organizations to achieve their pinnacle as a partner. What do you, what do you say to them now and how do you help them through this time? [00:26:16] Ashleigh Vogstad: I’m on the side of the fence that I really can’t see an organization ripping out something like Salesforce, Adobe, ServiceNow. [00:26:24] Vince Menzione: Agreed. [00:26:24] Ashleigh Vogstad: I mean that the amount of change management and. The extent to which these, these platforms are embedded, actually running and operating organizations. I personally, if, if we’re calling those companies, SaaS companies, I don’t agree that that layer is gonna go away. I mean, we’re seeing these organizations lean into AI in a huge way to borrow Microsofts. [00:26:50] Ashleigh Vogstad: Term, you know, they’re all becoming frontier firms. [00:26:54] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:26:54] Ashleigh Vogstad: So where I would go to, to answer that question, we do work with many, you know, organizations on that caliber, on things like their marketplace strategy on how to light up the fields of different hyperscalers. It really does come down to things like having a strong drumbeat with the Microsoft field, celebrating your win stories. [00:27:15] Ashleigh Vogstad: Maybe that’s where I’ll land as Please do the marketer, because it sounds so simple, and I don’t know why we kind of continue to come back to this, but we’re talking about that third party validation and really, um, in order to have that, like what the hyperscalers want is you jointly celebrating success. [00:27:36] Ashleigh Vogstad: Here’s the kicker. Publicly. [00:27:38] Vince Menzione: Publicly, [00:27:39] Ashleigh Vogstad: you know, you need a customer story on your website, a press release that contains a quote from your customer. Ideally, also a quote from an executive at one of the hyperscalers. Like, actually lean in to live the value of your better together story. And when you do that, when you, when it comes around to partner of the year time, and we talk to you about, okay, what client stories are we gonna feature? [00:28:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: We’re even gonna know because when we Google you, we can see the public press of the joint wins that you’ve been celebrating. And I can tell you that that is a huge indicator on whether or not you’re well-placed to be in the 4% of partners who actually win Partner of the Year award’s. [00:28:20] Vince Menzione: Fascinating to me. [00:28:21] Vince Menzione: ’cause to me it would feel like table stakes maybe ’cause where we sit is ultimate partner and where this room sits with all the top partners that I just assume that everybody follows that. That, that guidance. [00:28:34] Ashleigh Vogstad: Mm. [00:28:34] Vince Menzione: And so this is really impactful and I want to get here because I know you spent a lot of time here and we’ve talked about it before, but I think the partner of the year awards, when we first met many years ago, that was a you, you’ve expanded the business, but that’s still a core mission and and value that you bring to the community and to the partner ecosystem is helping them through this process. [00:28:55] Vince Menzione: So I know that that’s gonna be coming up soon, so I thought maybe we’d spend a couple moments on that. [00:29:00] Ashleigh Vogstad: Partner of the Year awards, regardless of which partner, I mean, Salesforce has their own awards there. There’s more and more award programs coming out, and they’re a great way to celebrate the incredible work that your organization has done. [00:29:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: Jay McBain is brilliant on this. He’ll talk a lot about the increase in valuation. Yeah. The, the increase in stock valuation or the likelihood that if you’re looking to be acquired, that you’re acquired within 12 months of a partner of the year win it. It’s really impressive. There is strong business value there. [00:29:33] Vince Menzione: He like, he likes, he likes to tell the story of that when the award is handed to them and they go back into the audience, that the private equity people are all over them right then and there and making offers. I mean, that’s the visual that you get [00:29:47] Ashleigh Vogstad: and it’s very powerful. Yeah. Very powerful. It’s very powerful and it, it can make it worthwhile to invest in the process, but don’t invest in the process if you haven’t been investing in the process for the 12 months. [00:29:57] Ashleigh Vogstad: Prior, [00:29:58] Vince Menzione: exactly. [00:29:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: The Microsoft field or you we’re talking about Microsoft Partner of the Year Awards. They need to know about your win that that needs to be top of mind for them. Yeah. How much Azure revenue is it driving? Was it a huge marketplace? Build sales and. You know, one of the questions I get asked a ton, everybody wants to know how do we get money out of the hyperscalers? [00:30:20] Ashleigh Vogstad: How do I get access to marketing development funds or all these different programs? Yeah. You know, at Microsoft, some of these programs are like EI and customer investment funds or Azure Accelerate, you know, and there’s millions and millions and millions of dollars in these, these buckets of funds, but. [00:30:36] Ashleigh Vogstad: An interesting point of view is that it’s actually a scorecard metric for many people at Microsoft who have partnership roles for you to be drawing down those funds. [00:30:45] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:30:45] Ashleigh Vogstad: You know, your interests are actually aligned here, and so again, when it comes to Partner of the Year awards, how much money have you pulled down? [00:30:54] Ashleigh Vogstad: How much have you been an activating partner of key Microsoft programs that they’re pushing? What are you doing with marketplace rewards? How are you resing? Those into your business. These are the types of things that you really wanna be thinking about. Sitting it. You know, this time of year we probably will get the awards were likely be due in July. [00:31:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: They haven’t officially announced timelines, but you’ve got a few months to start moving these pieces into place. [00:31:18] Vince Menzione: And there are quite a few of them. And to your point, Nina, when she was up on stage here yesterday, there were at least 10 or 12 award. Uh. Funding categories that were on her, that were on her slide. [00:31:31] Vince Menzione: Her partner, her partner slide. So, [00:31:33] Ashleigh Vogstad: and what great looks like for a partner is that you understand your end-to-end funnel as it is mapped to Microsoft’s SEM model, the Microsoft customer Engagement model. Mm-hmm. The first stage there, inspire and design. That’s really the marketing space of lead generation. [00:31:50] Ashleigh Vogstad: So how are you generating leads with webinars, in-person, event activations, digital campaigns, and then at the very end, in the fifth column, you have the Microsoft outcomes that you’re driving. Yes. Whether that’s Azure consumed revenue, marketplace build sales, co-pilot, monthly active usage, these sorts of things. [00:32:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: And in each of those SEM swim lanes. There’s Microsoft funding associated to it. And that’s one of the things that Nina Harding was showing yesterday. When and where does it make sense to make requests for EA funds versus Azure accelerate the MCI funding? There’s different workshop proof of concept funding, and those all fall at specific stages in that EM model. [00:32:33] Vince Menzione: And what you’re also pointing out in this conversation is that the co the partners need to understand that mm, they need to understand MM. We talked about it years ago. I’ve had, haven’t had anybody on stage recently talk about m You could probably take us through that if we wanted to devote some time here, uh, and then understand all of those categories and how to access those funds. [00:32:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, it’s critical and. The number one place we point partners, if you want a quick overview of what that looks like is to Microsoft’s FY 26 solution playbooks. Nice. They’re available on the web for download. There’s, well, there used to be three, but they’ve added a few agen being, being one. So, so there’s a handful of, they had [00:33:11] Vince Menzione: simplified it, now they’re, now they’re expanding it back again. [00:33:14] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, exactly. I think there’s now a breakout for security as well. Yes. So take a look at those playbooks. It will map programs and incentives very specifically to each solution area and to each sales play that are gonna be available to you. And then we’re always happy to guide people through the details [00:33:32] Vince Menzione: as well. [00:33:32] Vince Menzione: I love that. I love that. And reach out to the. Ashley is just amazing at this process. I’ve, I’ve watched her for years now, work with some of the top, what have become the pinnacle partners of Microsoft and with the award season coming up. So we wanna make sure we have a plug there. But I also wanna talk about like, podcasts with you. [00:33:50] Vince Menzione: Um, you’ve been on this podcast multiple times, been in the studio before doing this, and I understand you have your own podcast now. So tell us about that. [00:33:58] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, Vince, I just wanna say. As a friend and a mentor. You’ve been so inspiring. Thank you. And I think from years ago when we met, there was this seed in my brain of, you know, I, I should really get out there. [00:34:13] Ashleigh Vogstad: And you talk a lot about growth mindset and fear setting is, is one of Tim Ferriss’s terms? Yes. And models. [00:34:21] Vince Menzione: I love Tim Ferris. I’ve been, been a fan of his for 10 years now. So that’s settled. We all got started with this. Sorry. Sorry, I [00:34:26] Ashleigh Vogstad: interrupt. No, no, not at all. [00:34:27] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:34:28] Ashleigh Vogstad: And. I think it’s just been, it’s been back there. [00:34:31] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. That I’m really passionate around having voice is how I think about it. And as a marketing agency, we’re really amplifying the voice, um, or helping companies to find their voice, particularly in hyperscaler partnerships. And what better way to assist, you know, authentically the amazing people in our network, in our community and our clients than with our own channel where we can celebrate their stories and success? [00:35:00] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:35:01] Ashleigh Vogstad: So the podcast is called Transcending Tech. It’s about [00:35:06] Vince Menzione: very cool transcending tech. Just so you don’t [00:35:08] Ashleigh Vogstad: transcending tech. [00:35:08] Vince Menzione: It’s out there now. [00:35:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: It, we just released our first episode. Okay. I think two days ago. [00:35:13] Vince Menzione: So by the time we’re live, yes. We’ll, we’ll be able to access it. Good. [00:35:17] Ashleigh Vogstad: You will be able to access it. [00:35:18] Ashleigh Vogstad: The first episode is with Alyssa Fit. Patrick from Elastic. [00:35:21] Vince Menzione: Oh my goodness. [00:35:22] Ashleigh Vogstad: And the concept of the podcast, it’s long form and it’s really about getting to the people behind the platforms. [00:35:29] Vince Menzione: Very cool. [00:35:29] Ashleigh Vogstad: And to the stories that transcend technology. So we’re here to get to know the human beings behind. Agents. [00:35:38] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:35:38] Ashleigh Vogstad: And taking the time to, to go in deep and really explore that. [00:35:43] Vince Menzione: So I am excited to see all the developments here with the, with the podcast. And you’re gonna be joining us again. You were just here, you in Boca. But you’ll be joining us again in Bellevue. Not too far a little bit. Closer ride or travel, uh, for you to come to Bellevue. [00:35:57] Vince Menzione: We’re gonna be hosting the first ultimate partner live, which is our larger events in this beautiful facility, this new Intercontinental hotel, which is fabulous. And, uh, you’re gonna be taking a more active role. Your leadership around AI is. Palpable and we’re gonna love to have you on stage and talking through some of the changes. [00:36:17] Vince Menzione: I, I suspect by the time we get to Bellevue we’ll have a lot more to talk about. That hasn’t even happened yet. [00:36:23] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah, I’m really excited. I’ll have been through my next cohort at at Oxford, kind of coming out hot from there back to the Pacific Northwest, and really excited to just share the learnings and Awesome. [00:36:35] Ashleigh Vogstad: Genuinely. It’s also helping me in my own research, really formulate particularly around the role of ag agentic AI in hyperscaler partnerships. [00:36:43] Vince Menzione: That’s so cool. And then what I’ll say is this, and I don’t know, we on the space perspective, and I’ll, the team will probably hang me for this because we haven’t done it yet, but if you wanna bring the podcast along with you, there might be, we’ll see if we can find an extra room for you to set up. [00:36:58] Vince Menzione: If you wanna do some interviews while you’re. In, at the event. So [00:37:02] Ashleigh Vogstad: you’re so generous, Vince. [00:37:03] Vince Menzione: That’s [00:37:04] Ashleigh Vogstad: amazing. [00:37:04] Vince Menzione: Thank you. Again, I can’t say for certainty yet, but, uh, let’s see, let’s see what happens with that. So, uh, let, let’s, uh, you know, I always, we, we have known each other for years and I just assume everybody knows this amazing Ashley sda. [00:37:19] Vince Menzione: But, um, we always, I like to ask this question because it helps us kind of dig in a little bit about you personally. And it’s my favorite question. I ask all my guests this question now, and it’s, um, you’re hosting a dinner party, Ashley, you are, pick a pace, place, you wanna have this dinner. We could talk about parts of the world. [00:37:36] Vince Menzione: You’ve traveled all extensively. Uh, and you can invite any three people, guests from the present. Or the past to this amazing dinner party you’re throwing. Whom would you invite and why? [00:37:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: It’s a beautiful question, Vince and. Instantly I go to a place in terms of the location, since you asked that part, which was surprising. [00:38:01] Ashleigh Vogstad: I, I like that is my home. I, I love where I live up in Whistler, Canada and [00:38:08] Vince Menzione: I hear it’s beautiful. I haven’t been yet, [00:38:10] Ashleigh Vogstad: it’s so gorgeous and it’s, it’s my own sanctuary. You know, I live on a plane 75% of the time and coming back to that place is really grounding for me. Yes. So, so I would love to have it at, at my home and to invite. [00:38:24] Ashleigh Vogstad: Pippa Malrin would be one. She, Pippa [00:38:26] Vince Menzione: Malrin. [00:38:27] Ashleigh Vogstad: Yeah. She’s sure. I get an advisor to the White House for many administrations. Okay. She’s an economist and she just has really interesting perspective on geopolitics. Uh, I follow her on Substack ’cause she’s a big substack. Okay, now [00:38:41] Vince Menzione: I need to look. This is awesome. [00:38:42] Vince Menzione: The [00:38:43] Ashleigh Vogstad: mal, she’s fantastic. I would say Dr. Lisa Sue, the CEO, Dr. Lisa of a md. [00:38:49] Vince Menzione: Okay. Yes, yes. I know a little bit about her. [00:38:51] Ashleigh Vogstad: So she was one of Time Mag, I think she was the only woman in Time Magazine’s, group of people of the year, which was basically this AI cohort in including, you know, the Elon Musks of the world. [00:39:03] Ashleigh Vogstad: Uh, it’s just so impressive what she’s doing with leadership in a MD. I don’t think it’s as public as. Anybody else who is on the cover of that magazine, but it’s incredibly powerful. [00:39:14] Vince Menzione: Yeah, they’ve made a com uh, turnaround’s probably not the right word, but it seems like they’ve made a tremendous, uh, gains turnaround probably in the last few years. [00:39:23] Ashleigh Vogstad: I would say that many would say turnaround. And then lastly is Dr. Fefe Lee, who. For those in the AI space, particularly AI research space. I mean, she’s arguably number one. Um, she’s leading at Stanford currently. [00:39:37] Vince Menzione: Wow. This is gonna be a heady conversation, but you know, I love conversations. So if you don’t mind, maybe I’ll bring dessert and come, come in for a few moments, maybe do some podcast interviews there. [00:39:48] Vince Menzione: How’s that? [00:39:49] Ashleigh Vogstad: That sounds absolutely perfect, Vince, [00:39:50] Vince Menzione: so, so good. So good to have you here today. So great. Good to have you in the studio again, and, uh, excited for transcends and all the great work you’re doing. Um. This time with ai. I think you, uh, we talked about this a little bit last night. I think you’ve made some really wise, personal and professional decisions about how to lead and how to take this forward and not kind of rest on your laurels, which you see so many organizations do People fear change [00:40:17] Ashleigh Vogstad: Hmm. [00:40:18] Vince Menzione: And you embrace it, which is just, it’s astounding to me that you do that and, um. I look forward to working with you in the future and for years and years to come. So I will ask you one more question though, because we are still at the precipice of these tectonic shifts and we’re still early in 2026. And so for our listeners and our viewers today, what would be the one thing you would tell them that they need to go do now that possibly they haven’t done yet as they prepare for 2026 and beyond? [00:40:52] Ashleigh Vogstad: The generic phrase would be, be curious, but if we want an action, it would be go build an agent. [00:40:59] Vince Menzione: Go build an agent [00:41:00] Ashleigh Vogstad: if, if you haven’t already. Yeah. And, and I’m, yeah. Speaking hopefully to like a business audience, you know, to, to anyone. Yeah. Really, um, find something that is interesting that you’re passionate about. [00:41:12] Ashleigh Vogstad: A, a use case that it doesn’t have to be some big thing. It could be quite mundane, but just something that’s gonna help you in your role. It’s, you know, what is creativity is an interesting question, and I can tell you that sitting down and hands-on keys and actually creating something is, is a beautiful, powerful experience. [00:41:32] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Awesome. All right. We’re all gonna go create agents this weekend, so thank you for listening. Thank you for viewing the Ultimate Guide to partnering on our YouTube channel, ultimate Partner, and on each end of your platforms at the Ultimate Guide to partnering. Thank you for being with us and supporting us all these years. [00:41:50] Vince Menzione: Thank you. Don’t forget, ultimate Partner Live is coming soon, May 11th through the 13th in beautiful Bellevue, Washington. I hope to see you there.

In this episode of AI With Sally, hosted by EE Times' Sally Ward-Foxton, Muneyb Minhazuddin discusses Ambarella's evolving go-to-market strategy, emphasizing the shift from a direct sales approach to a more collaborative model involving ISVs and system integrators. He highlights the role of AI in creating new market opportunities and the importance of simplifying application development through the DevZone and Agentic Blueprints. The discussion also covers the challenges and strategies in building partnerships, understanding value realization in vertical markets, and the anticipated impact of these changes on Ambarella's growth and market presence.

The discussion centers on the implementation challenges and partner enablement strategies for artificial intelligence (AI) within the technology channel. According to TD Synnex's AI Accelerator program, only a small portion of AI projects achieve active deployment and measurable ROI, with widespread difficulties cited in scaling complex AI use cases. Jessica Yeck, SVP of Vendor Solutions at TD Synnex, highlights that progress is contingent upon engaging partners at their current state of AI readiness and aligning support resources accordingly. The evidence reflects a move away from one-size-fits-all approaches toward tailored frameworks that focus on tangible business outcomes and repeatable processes. TD Synnex's revised strategy prioritizes meeting partners “where they are,” using assessment frameworks that differentiate between partners with defined AI strategies and those seeking foundational guidance. Jessica Yeck references leveraging the broader technology ecosystem—including vendors, ISVs, and hyperscalers—to deliver solutions with multi-party input. This approach enables partners to identify actionable opportunities and develop pipelines, but demands cross-functional collaboration and technical-specialist engagement, particularly as customization—rather than rigid standardization—is required for effective deployment. The episode also addresses the evolving role of technology distribution in supporting partners beyond logistics. There is explicit recognition of the importance of financial mechanisms, marketplace access, and consultative guidance for services. Jessica Yeck underscores the interconnectedness of relationship-building, competency focus, and ecosystem utilization, noting that partners do not need exhaustive in-house technical skills if they can identify and collaborate with relevant specialists. This points to a strategic shift in what services and value partners can realistically deliver. For MSPs and IT service providers, the key implications involve re-evaluating approaches to AI enablement and partner relations. Instead of prioritizing technical uniformity or attempting to master every subsystem, providers should invest in relationship management and focused competency development while leveraging broader ecosystem resources. Adoption risk is reduced when partners clearly understand their customers' primary objectives and are prepared to orchestrate service delivery with targeted technical and financial support from their distribution networks. The episode reiterates that risk and accountability in AI projects hinge on practical readiness, process discipline, and honest assessment of operational capabilities, rather than technology enthusiasm or over-reliance on standardized templates.

Fraud hasn't disappeared - it got smarter. Organized rings now aim upstream at SaaS platforms and ISVs that embed payments, where a single gap in onboarding, transaction logic, or refund flows can be scaled into thousands of attacks overnight. We sit down with Brian Rust, SVP and Deputy Chief Information Security Officer at Worldpay, to map the real fraud journey (entry, action, exit) and the concrete moves product and security leaders can make right now to protect merchants and brand trust.We start with the why: platforms offer leverage. Brian explains how bots and AI generate convincing synthetic businesses that pass weak KYC, and what early signals still break the spell - impossible form completion times, IP and address mismatches, and brand-new domains claiming long histories. From there, we dive into the middle of the kill chain: card testing. You'll hear how velocity spikes, elevated decline rates, and geo anomalies betray large-scale testing and how adaptive limits for new merchants can contain losses and prevent network penalties. Then we confront refund abuse, where attackers exploit trust by refunding to different instruments or flooding high-value returns. The fix isn't blanket friction - it's precision: refund-to-original-card only, refund velocity caps, and targeted reviews that slow bad actors while keeping good customers moving.Brian lays out the layers that matter now: device fingerprinting, behavioral analytics, and transaction monitoring that can halt suspect money movement before funds leave your orbit. He also makes the case for a fraud-cyber fusion model, aligning teams and intelligence using frameworks like MITRE ATT&CK to anticipate tactics as cyber and financial motives blend. Finally, we close with three actions you can ship this quarter: audit onboarding with bot controls and threat modeling, enforce velocity controls that adapt as trust grows, and tap your processor's data and filters (AVS, CVV) to harden defaults.If you lead product, risk, or engineering for a payments-enabled platform, this conversation gives you a practical blueprint to raise attacker costs, protect your merchants, and guard your reputation. 

The Deal You Never Knew Existed. Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX: https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this deep dive, Jay McBain reveals the harsh reality of the “28 Moments” in a modern B2B buying journey, using a multi-million dollar SAP deal at AstraZeneca as a wake-up call for vendors. He explains how traditional marketing leads are failing in the “decade of the ecosystem,” where trusted partners like NTT and SoftwareOne are winning deals in “light blue” partnership moments months before a customer ever downloads an ebook. If you aren’t visible in the seven-layer stack or collaborating with the partners who hold the customer’s trust, you aren’t just losing the deal—you're losing the entire market. https://youtu.be/NO-P6X2dTAo?si=8e_sVesqvwaC0M-E Key Takeaways Most vendors lose major deals without ever knowing a transaction was even taking place. The average considered purchase involves 28 distinct moments of research and influence before a sale. Trusted partners often close the deal in the “middle moments” months before the money is actually spent. Traditional marketing leads (MQLs) are often too “flimsy” compared to deep partner-led relationships. Winning in the ecosystem requires being part of a “seven-layer stack” of integrated technology and services. Data-sharing platforms like Crossbeam and Workspan are now essential to seeing the “invisible” pipeline. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Key Tags: 28 Moments, Jay McBain, Ecosystem Strategy, AstraZeneca SAP Deal, Seven Layer Stack, B2B Buying Journey, Partner Ecosystem, NTT, SoftwareOne, Channel Strategy, Buyer Intent, Informa TechTarget, Collaborative Selling, Crossbeam, Partner Tap, Workspan, Marketplace Tracking, Co-selling, Tech Integration, Revenue Architecture, Pipeline Growth, Trusted Advisor, Digital Transformation, SAP Optimization, Microsoft AWS Competition. Transcript: [00:00:00] Jay McBain: So if you’re a vendor trying to get into that seven layer stack and you don’t have that relationship, or you don’t have the knowledge that NTT or software one is going in, this will have been a deal that would’ve never hit your pipeline and you’ll have no knowledge. So you will have lost this deal without knowing there was a deal. [00:00:19] Vince Menzione: We’ve been talking 28 moments, but you have a slide. I thought we’d spend some time here because, you know, every conversation with you is about 28 moments, but you finally took the time to analyze one of your deals or one of the deals that was going on with one of your clients and come up with the 28 moments. [00:00:36] Vince Menzione: I thought we’d spend a little time here because this journey slide is a wake up call. Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s all around. Why, why we need to think about all of those. Points we need to think about communities and analysts and marketplaces and proof of concepts and architecture and everything else. I thought maybe you’d take us through this a little bit. [00:00:53] Vince Menzione: ’cause this was for a client, AstraZeneca, by the way. This was, uh, if you don’t know this, ICI Americas was the precursor of mm-hmm. AstraZeneca. It was the first SAP customer in North America. [00:01:03] Jay McBain: Nice. I did [00:01:04] Vince Menzione: not know that. That’s why Microsoft and SAP both headquartered. In that area, near nearby, that client. [00:01:10] Vince Menzione: That’s, uh, news, new news. [00:01:11] Jay McBain: And by the way, this is an SAP deal we’re looking at. Yeah. Uh, so two things here. One is that, um, while I was declaring the decade of the ecosystem, you know, spending time with you and Boca, in between that time we got acquired. Canals, which was Latin for channel, got acquired by oia, part of Informa TechTarget, part of this bigger informa company, which is a Fortune 100 company outta the uk. [00:01:32] Jay McBain: Fantastic. You know, we’re part of this massive organization that is really around buyer intent. How, you know, a tech target and, uh, running hundreds of magazines like Information Week and Computer Week that customers and partners read running hundreds of events, the biggest events on the planet. [00:01:49] Vince Menzione: Crazy [00:01:49] Jay McBain: in B2B, like Black Hat and all these things are run by [00:01:52] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:01:53] Jay McBain: informa. [00:01:53] Jay McBain: So it’s got this massive mountain of data. About the 28 moments. So when you start to think if you’re a CMO and you start to think about the early moments, you, you think about somebody reading an ebook or, um, going to a, a webinar or going onto a LinkedIn live just like this one. Yeah, going to a major event and getting a pair of socks from you. [00:02:13] Jay McBain: Um, but anything early in the journey. These are the m qls. These are the things that I need enough of them to be credible before I hand them over to my sales team. ’cause I don’t wanna be laughed out of the room. Hey, they read an ebook. They must, AstraZeneca must be buying millions of dollars of stuff. [00:02:27] Vince Menzione: Traditional marketing lead. [00:02:29] Jay McBain: Traditional marketing lead. So they’re a bit nervous about sharing that. And then later on, the sales motions, the demos and all the progression of the sales. This was the two decades before us, the decade of sales, decade of marketing. But the 28 moments, just to take a step back, if you haven’t heard, it is just a considered purchase. [00:02:46] Jay McBain: It’s about psychology, human psychology. When you go and buy a car, second most expensive thing that you will purchase you on average will go through 28 moments getting ready for that purchase. Some people go through two moments and they just drive to the Cadillac dealership to see Larry, who’s been selling Cadillacs to the family for 80 years. [00:03:04] Jay McBain: Yep. Some people spend 58 moments. That’s probably me. [00:03:07] Vince Menzione: That’s you, a, [00:03:08] Jay McBain: you know, going through all the depreciation, watching every YouTube video, you know, going to the end of the earth. But the average is 28. So you start to think about this, this is the same buying a car considered purchase, that you would buy a million dollars in software. [00:03:21] Jay McBain: From Microsoft or SAP. So when you look at these moments, you start to think, you know, how is you before you buy that car, downloading the invoice price, downloading this month’s backend rebates. Should I buy it in January? Should I buy it in February? All these decisions you make before you get to that dealership, you’re smarter than the salesperson, smarter than the sales manager. [00:03:39] Jay McBain: You know what 5,000 people bought the car for within 50 miles of you? I mean, you’re just so smart. You actually don’t need the dealership anymore. Just Carvana to me, hand me the keys. Exactly. But now in buying technology, hardware, software services, customers are getting this smart. And here’s all the moments they take to get this smart. [00:03:57] Jay McBain: But the thing we always had in mind in this decade of the ecosystem was the 96% there are trusted people. Yeah. Spending decades building that trust that come in in critical moments. They’re not marketing moments, they’re not sales moments. They are fully partnership moments. Yeah. And they’re on this slide in light blue. [00:04:15] Jay McBain: So if you were to look at this deal and, and somebody in marketing is finding these eBooks and webinars and they think there might be something, AWS got a direct hit on their website. So there’s something brewing at AstraZeneca. It, it might be in, it’s a big pharmaceutical company, so you’re probably spending millions of dollars if something’s brewing. [00:04:31] Jay McBain: Yep. But guess what? At the same time, in December on this six month journey. Partners come in with five different paid projects, consulting, advisory design projects, and in this case it was NTT software one, Yash and uh, ISV was there. Yep. But NTT won three different. Deals right at that critical stage. It wasn’t Accenture, it wasn’t Deloitte, NTT at this particular department of AstraZeneca had spent the decades building those relationships. [00:04:58] Jay McBain: So they were the one, and they won critical part of this. And so that’s when the deal is won. And it’s not at April when the money’s being spent. Yeah, it’s, it’s not in March when a couple more ISVs joined the mix, that seven layer stack that solves this particular problem, it was right there. So if you’re a vendor trying to get into that seven layer stack and you don’t have that relationship, or you don’t have the knowledge that NTT or software one is going in, this will have been a deal that would’ve never hit your pipeline and you’ll have no knowledge. [00:05:30] Jay McBain: So you will have lost this deal without knowing there was a deal, which makes up again, the majority of your tam. [00:05:34] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:05:35] Jay McBain: But what if I did have this agentic ability to see this deal coming, and I’m a cybersecurity company, I’m just competing for layer five of the deal, but I know that it’s all happening in December. [00:05:46] Jay McBain: So the two things that jump out on this particular slide is one, they don’t just show up in December. [00:05:51] Vince Menzione: Yeah, [00:05:51] Jay McBain: this went closed one in their Salesforce CRM in August, September, well, before the customer ever read an ebook. So now you’re not dealing with a flimsy MQL. You’re dealing with a couple of great, you know, top partner 1000 sized firms. [00:06:09] Jay McBain: One of them is a partner, 30 firm. [00:06:11] Vince Menzione: Exactly. [00:06:12] Jay McBain: That is absolutely going into and earning hundreds of thousands of dollars in services to guide the customer to a millions of dollars in purchase. And, and you can imagine in that boardroom. With A CMO saying, Hey, I got this stuff here. And the head of channels or partnerships saying, no, no, this is real. [00:06:32] Jay McBain: Here’s the names, faces, and places. Yeah. And here’s how it’s happening. And this is exactly, this is the Gantt chart, this is the show up, this is the project, this is the outcome. This is exactly how it’s playing out. Now if I could go back and the board and the C-suite should be asking us, well, how many more deals like this can you see? [00:06:50] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:06:51] Jay McBain: If our TAM is, you know, how many billions of dollars? Could you double our pipeline by seeing more of these middle moments? And if we got a couple of months to spend with these partners before they get in front of the customer, could they build more of our portfolio into the deal so we’re not just layer five, maybe we’re layer three and layer five. [00:07:10] Vince Menzione: This slide screams at me. Integr Tech integration Cha. A partner channel integration of tech, uh, whether it’s Crossbeam, whether it’s Partner Tap, whether it’s work span, or any of these other technologies, tackle any of these technologies that are tracking marketplace, that are tracking partner to partner, co-selling. [00:07:30] Vince Menzione: Getting the integration points. The only way to really understand the situation here, because this is a multinational company. Yeah. It’s being touched at all PO points around the globe. And to understand who’s calling who, who’s influencing who, and getting a real view, you know, a uber view of what that looks like is super important. [00:07:47] Jay McBain: It is. And you know, if I’m trying to sell like a cross beam or partner tab or work span or something into my executive team, I’m just showing them this slide. [00:07:54] Vince Menzione: Exactly. [00:07:54] Jay McBain: Would you like to know about this deal? Like you see, October is the start of the timeline here. Would you like to know about this deal in August, September? [00:08:00] Vince Menzione: Yep. [00:08:01] Jay McBain: Would you like to know about it automatically? Again, we’re not waiting for somebody, a human in a cubicle to go fill out a form. We’re not waiting for them to call somebody at our in, in a cubicle at our company. Yeah. We’re literally age genically sharing platforms, and so when this triggers that AstraZeneca and now triggers in our CRM system as well, our team on AstraZeneca gets notified and it gets notified in September before the 28 moments even starts. [00:08:27] Jay McBain: This, the power of this, of doubling, tripling your pipeline and then winning a bigger yield, a bigger percentage of that pipeline. This is the holy grail of our industry, and no one’s gonna get to a hundred percent. You’re not gonna have a hundred percent of your tam covered by your pipeline. No one’s gonna win a hundred percent of that. [00:08:43] Jay McBain: But again, we only have to be 10 or 20% better than our competitors and we need to start moving on this now. [00:08:50] Vince Menzione: So your imperative for the partners here, well everyone watching here today, I mean, this screams to me build your ecosystem strategy in such a strong and succinct way. What else would you say to them? [00:09:00] Jay McBain: I mean, the second thing that jumps out, you see two AWS direct touches here. This is something that this would be inbound. This AWS would see this deal in their pipeline. [00:09:09] Vince Menzione: Yeah. [00:09:10] Jay McBain: Because the customer came to them. AWS lost this deal. Crazy. So Microsoft won this deal. I, I mentioned Microsoft outgrowing AWS Yeah. [00:09:19] Jay McBain: ’cause in this particular case, NTT and Software One and Yash came in with Microsoft. Yeah. To solve an SAP optimization, Microsoft, and, you know, seven layer deal. So whether you’re in AWS, whether you’re in Microsoft, whether you’re anywhere else in this industry, you’re thinking like, you’re not gonna probably overtake what happens in December. [00:09:39] Jay McBain: These are the most trusted, smartest people in the room. And whatever happens in those projects is the seven layer stack the customer’s gonna buy in March, April. So I, I start to think about this and go, I need to win. ’cause NTT has a wonderful relationship with AWS. [00:09:55] Vince Menzione: They do, [00:09:56] Jay McBain: I mean, partner of the year level. [00:09:57] Jay McBain: I mean, they’ve got 10,000 people certified. I mean, there’s just a, you know, there’s no one at AWS that, um, you know, would take a, a loss here because it’s a wonderful relationship. And Software One, they [00:10:09] Vince Menzione: go back to Microsoft actually 30, 40 years though they do. They were Dimension data before that. Yeah. [00:10:14] Vince Menzione: And they have the long hit Legacy And Software One. Software one as well. You, [00:10:19] Jay McBain: you know, well Software one is Microsoft’s biggest reseller, uh, in Europe. And now with Crayon, you know, one of the biggest in the world. So I would be nervous if I was looking at this and saw Software one coming in with NTT and watching these things take place if I were able to see this back in September, October and work with these companies. [00:10:38] Jay McBain: That’s where kind of Microsoft came into the picture. And this never hit Microsoft’s pipeline. No Microsoft salesperson ever worked on it, but millions of dollars came to Microsoft. Yeah. Uh, out of this deal. So there are examples of where Microsoft gets touched and AWS wins the deal. So this isn’t meant to say that it happens in every case, but it’s meant to say data rules the future, and agent ai, the ability to plumb in these boxes. [00:11:00] Jay McBain: Working with Informa tech, target people that can plumb in the boxes for you with third party data, helping you with the light blue boxes. We gotta be obsessed over these light blue boxes. [00:11:11] Vince Menzione: It’s incredible. The Ultimate Partner Winter Retreat is gonna be here in the Boca Studio. This is the third year that we’re gonna be here in Boca. [00:11:21] Vince Menzione: This is always a favorite of our community members, our executive members, our sponsors and speakers. We’ll all be here in the studio, which is a really intimate setting. We can see upwards of 40, 50 people. Uh, we’ll be hosting an incredible dinner at the Boca Resort overlooking the golf course. That’s an incredible property and, uh, we’d love to have you join us. [00:11:45] Vince Menzione: Thank you for being part of the ultimate Partner community, and I hope to see you this year at one of our events. Thank you.

If your AR feels like a maze of phone calls, spreadsheets, and “we'll match it later,” this conversation shows a cleaner path. We sit down with Fauwaz Hussain, Senior Director of B2B Partnerships and Strategy at Global Payments, to break down what actually speeds cash and what quietly stalls it. From card-not-present realities to complex terms and partial shipments, we map the B2B differences that make order-to-cash harder and the practical changes that remove friction fast.We get specific about embedding payments inside your ERP so invoices, settlements, and the general ledger line up automatically. That shift kills rekeying errors, collapses department silos, and gives support, sales, and finance the same live truth. Security gets stronger when card data never touches email or recorded calls, and PCI compliance becomes manageable when you use certified, cloud-based vaults and enforce simple rules like “no cards by phone.” Fauwaz explains why publishers like Microsoft, SAP, and Sage now run tighter marketplaces, how VARs and ISVs evaluate payment apps, and why a one-stop provider reduces risk across gateways, vaults, and processing.We also cover the cash-flow moves that work right away: self-serve portals with open invoices, one-click payment links by email or text, stored credentials for auto-pay, and accepting multiple methods from ACH to single-use virtual cards. Then we look forward - AI-driven cash application, predictive delinquencies, Level 2/3 data validation, and API-first architectures that connect e-commerce, field service, and ERP into a single payment fabric. If you're leading AR, finance, or operations, you'll leave with a clear playbook to modernize without compromising compliance.

As 2026 rolls along, Microsoft partners understand that they operate in an ecosystem dominated by AI ambitions. But the channel story goes a lot deeper, and attendees at PartnerIn's inaugural Vibe conference brought a broad range of ideas, experiences, and stories with them. The event did not ignore AI, and some sessions dove into topics around how partners are incorporating it into end-to-end business processes, data mining, agent development, and security. But when Microsoft isn't overpowering the conversation, partners also enjoy opening up about other topics like business process standardization, managing consulting teams, creating more effective relationships between ISVs and VARs, and improving sales pipelines. In this MSDW Podcast episode, we share conversations recorded on-site at Vibe with three presenters: Joel Leichty of Cooptimize, Carol Smock of TechFluent Academy, and Tanya Henderson and Steve Endow of Blue Dragonfly. They each share a bit about what they brought to the event, what they were learning from others, and their outlook on operating in the Microsoft channel in 2026.

In this Signal Series episode of the Leaders in Payments Podcast, I sit down with Matt Downs, President, Integrated and Platforms at Global Payments, to unpack the biggest platform-payments shifts heading into 2026. Coming off the newly closed Worldpay and Global Payments combination, Matt shares what scale means for ISVs and platforms, and why payments is no longer “just a feature.” It is a growth engine that touches product, operations, and trust.The conversation breaks into three practical themes: embedded payments, embedded finance, and AI-driven fraud. Matt explains how platforms are moving toward richer embedded experiences that extend beyond checkout into the full workflow, including onboarding, chargebacks, disputes, and support. At the same time, platforms are feeling pressure to expand into adjacent financial products such as working capital, banking services, cards, and payroll. He also points to a common blind spot: many leaders do not benchmark how competitors are using payments and financial services to differentiate their core product. That competitive context should directly shape the roadmap.On fraud, Matt argues that 2026 demands an end-to-end mindset. Threats now show up earlier in the lifecycle, operate in real time, and adapt quickly using AI, deepfakes, machine-to-machine attacks, and automation. He outlines the “non-negotiables” for security and compliance, including layered defenses that protect the entire transaction journey, from the first web visit through refunds and disputes, without adding so much friction that it slows growth.If you are an ISV or platform executive building your 2026 plan, this episode will help you pressure-test your partnership strategy, prioritize embedded finance by vertical, and make smarter decisions to stay ahead while avoiding costly execution pitfalls.

In this episode of Partnerships Unraveled, we sit down with Signe Holm, Partner Solution Sales Manager at Microsoft, to explore what it takes to drive successful co-sell motions between ISVs and Microsoft. Signe shares proven insights into seller-to-seller alignment, partner enablement, and leveraging Microsoft's evolving marketplace strategy.Channel professionals will gain valuable perspective on how to build trust with field sellers, localize go-to-market efforts for maximum resonance, and turn initial wins into scalable repeat business. Whether you're a partner marketer, channel lead, or ecosystem strategist, this episode offers pragmatic advice for deepening your alignment with Microsoft and accelerating co-sell success. Tune in to learn how small shifts in strategy can create a big impact across your indirect revenue programs._________________________Learn more about Channext

Wondering what SIs care about and how they approach implementing ISVs for the first (or hundredth) time? This episode if for you!In the latest episode of How We Got There, I speak with Steve Simpson, VP of Global Enablement & Learning at Copado, Co-Founder of Catcusforce and Certified Architect Instructor. Steve and I dive deep on the reality of the complex deal cycles that Salesforce ISVs experience and how best to posture in them, especially with new to you SIs. It's a timely episode as Cactusforce and Architect Dreamin' are coming up in Phoenix in late January and it's not too late to sponsor to fill the funnel for the new year….and get some warm weather in the winter! Go to the websites to learn more and find the prospectus.The customer, Salesforce AEs/SEs/RVPs, SIs can all be involved in a deal. Steve explains the personas in a deal and how it can/should change based on how you came to the deal. Did Salesforce or an SI bring you to the deal? Then they are the dominant person in the deal and you need to adjust your posture but one thing is a common through line is to make sure you continue to do right by the customer “with honesty and delivery”. Obviously you can ignore all of this complexity, but it introduces risk in your deals!Steve has wonderful detailed suggestions on how you position your experience in a specific scenario, even if you don't have any, that he borrows from a friend who trains physicians. He then relates it to how an SI can communicate their experience on your app. We talk about learning strategies that is tailored for customers and partners, the latter covering both sales and delivery. Steve is a wealth of knowledge and I am grateful for his sharing so freely.This episode is brought to you by Tequity Advisors . Tequity Advisors is a global sell-side M&A advisory firm with core expertise in SaaS and ISVs, Salesforce, ServiceNow, SAP, Microsoft, all things Data and AI, and the hyper scaler MSP cloud ecosystems with a focus on the Salesforce ecosystem and beyond! 

Welcome back to the Ultimate Guide to Partnering® Podcast. AI agents are your next customers. Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ https://youtu.be/vEdq8rpBM3I In this data-rich keynote, Jay McBain deconstructs the tectonic shifts reshaping the $5.3 trillion global technology industry, arguing that we are entering a new 20-year cycle where traditional direct sales models are obsolete. McBain explains why 96% of the industry is now surrounded by partners and how successful companies must pivot from “flywheels and theory” to a granular strategy focused on the seven specific partners present in every deal. From the explosion of agentic AI and the $163 billion marketplace revolution to the specific mechanics of multiplier economics, this discussion provides a roadmap for navigating the “decade of the ecosystem” where influence, trust, and integration—not just product—determine winners and losers. Key Takeaways Half of today's Fortune 500 companies will likely vanish in the next 20 years due to the shift toward AI and ecosystem-led models. Every B2B deal now involves an average of seven trusted partners who influence the decision before a vendor even knows a deal exists. Microsoft has outpaced AWS growth for 26 consecutive quarters largely because of a superior partner-led geographic strategy. Marketplaces are projected to grow to $163 billion by 2030, with nearly 60% of deals involving partner funding or private offers. The “Multiplier Effect” is the new ROI, where partners can make up to $8.45 for every dollar of vendor product sold. Future dominance relies on five key pillars: Platform, Service Partnerships, Channel Partnerships, Alliances, and Go-to-Market orchestration. If you're ready to lead through change, elevate your business, and achieve extraordinary outcomes through the power of partnership—this is your community. At Ultimate Partner® we want leaders like you to join us in the Ultimate Partner Experience – where transformation begins. Keywords: Jay McBain, Canalys, partner ecosystem, channel chief, agentic AI, marketplace growth, multiplier economics, B2B sales trends, tech industry forecast, service partnerships, strategic alliances, Microsoft vs AWS, distribution transformation, managed services growth, SaaS platforms, customer journey mapping, 28 moments of truth, future of reselling, technology spending 2025, ecosystem orchestration, partner multipliers. T Transcript: Jay McBain WORKFILE FOR TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Vince Menzione: Just up from, did you Puerto Rico last night? Puerto Rico, yes. Puerto Rico. He dodged the hurricane. Um, you all know him. Uh, let him introduce himself for those of you who don’t, but just thrilled to have on the stage, again, somebody who knows more about what’s going on in, in the, and has the pulse on this industry probably than just about anybody I know personally. [00:00:21] Vince Menzione: J Jay McBain. Jay, great to see you my friend. Alright, thank you. We have to come all the way. We live, we live uh, about 20 minutes from each other. We have to come all the way to Reston, Virginia to see each other, right? That’s right. Very good. Well, uh, that’s all over to you, sir. Thank you. [00:00:35] Jay McBain: Alright, well thank you so much. [00:00:36] Jay McBain: I went from 85 degrees yesterday to 45 today, but I was able to dodge that, uh, that hurricane, uh, that we kind of had to fly through the northern edge of, uh, wanna talk today about our industry, about the ultimate partner. I’m gonna try to frame up the ultimate partner as I walk through the data and the latest research that, uh, that we’ve been doing in the market. [00:00:56] Jay McBain: But I wanted to start here ’cause our industry moves in 20 year cycles, and if you look at the Fortune 500 and dial back 20 years from today, 52% of them no longer exist. As we step into the next 20 year AI era, half of the companies that we know and love today are not gonna exist. So we look at this, and by the way, if you’re not in the Fortune 500 and you don’t have deep pockets to buy your way outta problems, 71% of tech companies fail over the course of 10 years. [00:01:30] Jay McBain: Those are statistics from the US government. So I start to look at our industry and you know, you may look at the, you know, mainframe era from the sixties and seventies, mini computers, August the 12th, 1981, that first IBM, PC with Microsoft dos, version one, you know, triggered. A new 20 year era of client server. [00:01:51] Jay McBain: It was the time and I worked at IBM for 17 years, but there was a time where Bill Gates flew into Boca Raton, Florida and met with the IBM team and did that, you know, fancy licensing agreement. But after, you know, 20 years of being the most valuable company in the world and 13 years of antitrust and getting broken up, almost like at and TIBM almost didn’t make payroll. [00:02:14] Jay McBain: 13 years after meeting Bill Gates. Yeah, that’s how quickly things change in these eras. In 1999, a small company outta San Francisco called salesforce.com got its start. About 10 years later, Jeff Bezos asked a question in a boardroom, could we rent out our excess capacity and would other companies buy it? [00:02:35] Jay McBain: Which, you know, most people in the room laughed at ’em at the time. But it created a 20 year cloud era when our friends, our neighbors, our family. Saw Chachi PT for the first time in March of 2023. They saw the deep fakes, they saw the poetry, they saw the music. They came to us as tech people and said, did we just light up Skynet? [00:02:58] Jay McBain: And that consumer trend has triggered this next 20 years. I could walk through the richest people in the world through those trends. I could walk through the most valuable companies. It all aligns. ’cause by the way, Apple’s no longer at the top. Nvidia is at the top, Microsoft. Second, things change really quickly. [00:03:17] Jay McBain: So in that course of time, you start to look at our industry and as people are talking about a six and a half or $7 trillion build out of ai, that’s open AI and Microsoft numbers, that is bigger than our industry that’s taken over 50 years to build. This year, we’re gonna finish the year at $5.3 trillion. [00:03:36] Jay McBain: That’s from the smallest flower shop to the biggest bank. Biggest governments that Caresoft would, uh, serve biggest customer in the world is actually the federal government of the us. But you look at this pie chart and you look at the changes that we’re gonna go through over the next 20 years, there’s about a trillion dollars in hardware. [00:03:54] Jay McBain: There’s about a trillion dollars in software. If you look forward through all of the merging trends, quantum computing, humanoid robots, all the things that are coming that dollar to dollar software to hardware will continue to exist all the way through. We see services making up almost two thirds of this pie. [00:04:13] Jay McBain: Yesterday I was in a telco conference with at and t and Verizon and T-Mobile and some of the biggest wireless players and IT services, which happen to be growing faster than products. At the moment, there is more work to be done wrapping around the deal than the actual products that the customer is buying. [00:04:32] Jay McBain: So in an industry that’s growing at 7%. On top of the world economy that’s grown at 2.2. This is the fastest growing industry, and it will be at least for the next 10 years, if not 2070 0.1% of this entire $5 trillion gets transacted through partners. While what we’re talking to today about the ultimate partner, 96% of this industry is surrounded by partners in one way or another. [00:05:01] Jay McBain: They’re there before the deal. They’re there at the deal. They’re there after the deal. Two thirds of our industry is now subscription consumption based. So every 30 days forever, and a customer for life becomes everything. So if every deal in medium, mid-market, and higher has seven partners, according to McKinsey, who are those seven people trying to get into the deal? [00:05:25] Jay McBain: While there’s millions of companies that have come into tech over the last 10 to 20 years. Digital agencies, accountants, legal firms, everybody’s come in. The 250,000 SaaS companies, a million emerging tech companies, there’s a big fight to be one of those seven trusted people at the table. So millions of companies and tens of millions of people our competing for these slots. [00:05:49] Jay McBain: So one of the pieces of research I’m most proud of, uh, in my analyst career is this. And this took over two years to build. It’s a lot of logos. Not this PowerPoint slide, but the actual data. Thousands of people hours. Because guess what? When you look at partners from the top down, the top 1000 partners, by capability and capacity, not by resale. [00:06:15] Jay McBain: It’s not a ranking of CDW and insight and resale numbers. It is the surrounding. Consulting, design, architecture, implementations, integrations, managed services, all the pieces that’s gonna make the next 20 years run. So when you start to look at this, 98% of these companies are private, so very difficult to get to those numbers and, uh, a ton of research and help from AI and other things to get this. [00:06:41] Jay McBain: But this is it. And if you look at this list, there’s a thousand logos out of the million companies. There’s a thousand logos that drive two thirds of all tech services in the world. $1.07 trillion gets delivered by a thousand companies, but here’s where it gets fun. Those companies in the middle, in blue, the 30 of them deliver more tech services than the next 970. [00:07:08] Jay McBain: Combined the 970 combined in white deliver more tech services. Then the next million combined. So if you think we live in an 80 20 rule or maybe a 99, a 95 5 rule, or a 99 1 rule, we actually live in a 99.9 0.1 parallel principle. These companies spread around the world evenly split across the uh, different regions. [00:07:35] Jay McBain: South Africa, Latin America, they’re all over. They split. They split among types. All of the Venn diagram I just showed from GSIs to VARs to MSPs, to agencies and other types of companies. But this is a really rich list and it’s public. So every company in the world now, if you’re looking at Transactable data, if you’re looking at quantifiable data that you can go put your revenue numbers against, it represents 70 to 80% of every company in this room’s Tam. [00:08:08] Jay McBain: In one piece of research. So what do you do below that? How do you cover a million companies that you can’t afford to put a channel account manager? You can’t afford to write programs directly for well after the top down analysis and all the wallet share and you know exactly where the lowest hanging fruit is for most of your tam. [00:08:28] Jay McBain: The available markets. The obtainable markets. You gotta start from the community level grassroots up. So you need to ask the question for the million companies and the maybe a hundred thousand companies out there, partner companies that are surrounding your customer. These are the seven partners that surround your customer. [00:08:48] Jay McBain: What do they read, where do they go, and who do they follow? Interestingly enough, our industry globally equates to only a thousand watering holes, a thousand companies at the top, a thousand places at the bottom. 35% of this audience we’re talking. Millions of people here love events and there’s 352 of them like this one that they love to go to. [00:09:13] Jay McBain: They love the hallway chats, they love the hotel lobby bar, you know, in a time reminded by the pandemic. They love to be in person. It’s the number one way they’re influenced. So if you don’t have a solid event strategy and you don’t have a community team out giving out socks every week, your competitors might beat you. [00:09:31] Jay McBain: 12% of this audience loves podcasts. It’s the Joe Rogan effect of our industry. And while you know, you may not think the 121 podcasts out there are important, well, you’re missing 12% of your audience. It’s over a million people. If you’re not on a weekly podcast in one of these podcasts in the world, there’s still people that read one of the 106 magazines in the world. [00:09:55] Jay McBain: There are people that love peer groups, associations, they wanna be part of this. There’s 15 different ways people are influenced. And a solid grassroots strategy is how you make this happen. In the last 10 years, we’ve created a number of billionaires. Bottom up. They never had to go talk to la large enterprise. [00:10:15] Jay McBain: They never had to go build out a mid-market strategy. They just went and give away socks and new community marketing. And this has created, I could rip through a bunch of names that became unicorns just in the last couple of years, bottoms up. You go back to your board walking into next year, top down, bottom up. [00:10:34] Jay McBain: You’ve covered a hundred percent of your tam, and now you’ve covered it with names, faces, and places. You haven’t covered it with a flywheel or a theory. And for 44 years, we have gone to our board every fourth quarter with flywheels and theory. Trust me, partners are important. The channel is key to us. [00:10:57] Jay McBain: Well, let’s talk at the point of this granularity, and now we’re getting supported by technology 261 entrepreneurs. Many of them in the room actually here that are driving this ability to succeed with seven partners in every deal to exchange data to be able to exchange telemetry of these prospects to be able to see twice or three times in terms of pipeline of your target addressable market. [00:11:26] Jay McBain: All these ai, um, technologies, agentic technologies are coming into this. It’s all about data. It’s all about quantifiable names, faces, and places. Now none of us should be walking around with flywheels, so let’s flip the flywheels. No. Uh, so we also look at, and I sold PCs for 17 years and that was in the high times of 40% margins for partners. [00:11:55] Jay McBain: But one interesting thing when you study the p and l for broad base of partners around the world, it’s changed pretty significantly in this last 20 year era. What the cloud era did is dropped hardware from what used to be 84% plus the break fix and things that wrap around it of the p and l to now 16% of every partner in the world. [00:12:16] Jay McBain: 84% of their p and l is now software and services. And if you look at profitability, it’s worse. It’s actually 87% is profitability wise. They’ve completely shifted in terms of where they go. Now we look at other parts of our market. I could go through every part of the pie of the slide, but we’re watching each of the companies, and if you can see here, this is what we want to talk about in terms of ultimate partner. [00:12:43] Jay McBain: Microsoft has outgrown AWS for 26 straight quarters. They don’t have a better product. They don’t have a better price, they don’t have better promotion. It’s all place. And I’ll explain why you guess here in the light green line. Exactly. The day that Google went a hundred percent all in partner, every deal, even if a deal didn’t have a partner, one of the 4% of deals that didn’t have a partner, they injected a partner. [00:13:09] Jay McBain: You can see on the left side exactly where they did it. They got to the point of a hundred percent partner driven. Rebuilt their programs, rebuilt their marketplace. Their marketplace is actually larger than Microsoft’s, and they grew faster than Microsoft. A couple of those quarters. It is a partner driven future, and now I have Oracle, which I just walked by as I walked from the hotel. [00:13:31] Jay McBain: Oracle with their RPOs will start to join. Maybe the list of three hyperscalers becomes the list of four in future slides, but that’s a growth slide. Market share is different. AWS early and commanding lead. And it plays out, uh, plays out this way. But we’re at an interesting moment and I stood up six years ago talking about the decade of the ecosystem after we went through a decade of sales starting in 1999 when we all thought we were born to be salespeople. [00:14:02] Jay McBain: We managed territories with our gut. The sales tech stack would have it different, that sales was a science, and we ended the decade 2009, looking at sales very differently in 2009. I remember being at cocktail parties where CMOs would be joking around that 50% of their marketing dollars were wasted. They just didn’t know which 50%. [00:14:23] Jay McBain: And I’ll tell you, that was really funny. In 2009 till every 58-year-old CMO got replaced by a 38-year-old growth hacker who walked in with 15,348 SaaS companies in their MarTech and ad tech stack to solve the problem, every nickel of marketing by 2019 was tracked. Marketo, Eloqua, Pardot, HubSpot, driving this industry. [00:14:50] Jay McBain: Now, we stood up and said the 28 moments that come before a sale are pretty much all partner driven. In the best case scenario, a vendor might see four of the moments. They might come to your website, maybe they read an ebook, maybe they have a salesperson or a demo that comes in. That’s four outta 28 moments. [00:15:10] Jay McBain: The other 24 are done by partners. Yeah, in the worst case scenario and the majority scenario, you don’t see any of the moments. All 28 happen and you lose a deal without knowing there ever was a deal. So this is it. We need to partner in these moments and we need to inject partners into sales and marketing, like no time before, and this was the time to do it. [00:15:33] Jay McBain: And we got some feedback in the Salesforce state of sales report, which doesn’t involve any partnerships or, or. Channel Chiefs or anything else. This is 5,500 of the biggest CROs in the world that obviously use Salesforce. 89% of salespeople today use partners every day. For the 11% who don’t, 58% plan two within a year. [00:15:57] Jay McBain: If you add those two numbers together, that’s magically the 96% number. They recognize that every deal has partners in it. In 2024, last year, half of the salespeople in the world, every industry, every country. Miss their numbers. For the minority who made their numbers, 84 point percent pointed to partners as the reason why they made their numbers. [00:16:21] Jay McBain: It was the cheat code for sales, so that modern salesperson that knows how to orchestrate a deal, orchestrate the 28 moments with the seven partners and get to that final spot is the winning formula. HubSpot’s number in separate research was 84% in marketing. So we’re starting to see partners in here. We don’t have to shout from the mountaintops. [00:16:44] Jay McBain: These communities like ultimate Partner are working and we’re getting this to the highest levels in the board. And I’ll say that, you know, when 20 years from now half of the companies we know and love fail after we’re done writing the book and blaming the CEO for inventing the thing that ended up killing them, blaming the board for fiduciary responsibility and letting it happen. [00:17:06] Jay McBain: What are the other chapters of the book? And I think it’s all in one slide. We are in this platform economy and the. [00:17:31] Jay McBain: So your battery’s fine. Check, check, check, check. Alright, I’ll, I’ll just hold this in case, but the companies that execute on all five of these areas, well. Not only today become the trillion dollar valued companies, but they become the companies of tomorrow. These will be the fastest growing companies at every level. [00:17:50] Jay McBain: Not only running a platform business, but participating in other platforms. So this is how it breaks out, and there are people at very senior levels, at very big companies that have this now posted in the office of the CEO winning on integrations is everything. We just went through a demographic shift this year where 51% of our buyers are born after 1982. [00:18:15] Jay McBain: Millennials are the number one buyer of the $5 trillion. Their number one buying criteria is not service. Support your price, your brand reputation, it’s integrations. The buy a product, 80% is good as the next one if it works better in their environment. 79% of us won’t buy a car unless it has CarPlay or Android Auto. [00:18:34] Jay McBain: This is an integration world. The company with the most integrations win. Second, there are seven partners that surround the customer. Highly trusted partners. We’re talking, coaching the customer’s, kids soccer team, having a cottage together up at the lake. You know, best men, bate of honors at weddings type of relationships. [00:18:57] Jay McBain: You can’t maybe have all seven, but how does Microsoft beat AWS? They might have had two, three, or four of them saying nice things about them instead of the competition. Winning in service partnerships and channel partnerships changes by category. If you’re selling MarTech, only 10% of it today is resold, so you build more on service partnerships. [00:19:18] Jay McBain: If you’re in cybersecurity today, 91.6% of it is resold. Transacted through partners. So you build a lot of channel partnerships, plus the service partnerships, whatever the mix is in your category, you have to have two or three of those seven people. Saying nice things about you at every stage of the customer journey. [00:19:38] Jay McBain: Now move over to alliances. We have already built the platforms at the hyperscale level. We’ve built the platforms within SaaS, Salesforce, ServiceNow, Workday, Marketo, NetSuite, HubSpot. Every buyer has a set of platforms that they buy. We’ve now built them in cybersecurity this year out of 6,500 as high as cyber companies, the top five are starting to separate. [00:20:02] Jay McBain: We built it in distribution, which I’ll show in a minute. We’re building it in Telco. This is a platform economy and alliances win and you have alliances with your competitors ’cause you compete in the morning, but you’re best friends by the afternoon. Winning in other platforms is just as important as driving your own. [00:20:20] Jay McBain: And probably the most important part of this is go to market. That sales, that marketing, the 28 moments, the every 30 days forever become all a partner strategy. So there’s still CEOs out there that believe platform is a UI or UX on a bunch of disparate products and things you’ve acquired. There’s still CFOs out there that Think platform is a pricing model, a bundle model of just getting everything under one, you know, subscription price or consumption price. [00:20:51] Jay McBain: And it’s not, platforms are synonymous with partnerships. This is the way forward and there’s no conversation around ai. That doesn’t involve Nvidia over there, an open AI over here and a hyperscaler over there and a SaaS company over here. The seven layer stack wins every single time, and the companies that get this will be the ones that survive this cycle. [00:21:16] Jay McBain: Now, flipping over to marketplaces. So we had written research that, um, about five years ago that marketplaces were going to grow at 82% compounded. Yeah, probably one of the most accurate predictions we ever made, because it happened, we, we predicted that, uh, we were gonna get up to about $85 billion. Well, now we’ve extended that to 2030, so we’re gonna get up to $163 billion, and the thing that we’re watching is in green. [00:21:46] Jay McBain: If 96% of these deals are partner assisted in some way, how is the economics of partnering going to work? We predicted that 50% of deals by 2027. Would be partner funded in some way. Private offers multi-partner offers distributor sellers of record, and now that extends to 59% by 2030, the most senior leader of the biggest marketplace AWS, just said to us they’re gonna probably make these numbers on their own. [00:22:14] Jay McBain: And he asked what their two competitors are doing. So he’s telling us that we under called this. Now when you look at each of the press releases, and this is the AWS Billion Dollar Club. Every one of the companies on the left have issued a press release that they’re in the billion dollar club. Some of them are in the multi-billions, but I want you to double click on this press release. [00:22:35] Jay McBain: I’m quoted in here somewhere, but as CrowdStrike is building the marketplace at 91% compounded, they’re almost doubling their revenue every single year. They’re growing the partner funding, in this case, distributor funding by 3548%. Almost triple digit growth in marketplace is translating into almost quadruple digit growth in funding. [00:23:01] Jay McBain: And you see that over and over again as, as Splunk hit three, uh, billion dollars. The same. Salesforce hit $2 billion on AWS in Ulti, 18 months. They joined in October 20, 23, and 18 months later, they’re already at $2 billion. But now you’re seeing at Salesforce, which by the way. Grew up to $40 billion in revenue direct, almost not a nickel in resell. [00:23:28] Jay McBain: Made it really difficult for VARs and managed service providers to work with Salesforce because they couldn’t understand how to add services to something they didn’t book the revenue for. While $40 billion companies now seeing 70% of their deals come through partners. So this is just the world that we’re in. [00:23:44] Jay McBain: It doesn’t matter who you are and what industry you’re in, this takes place. But now we’re starting to see for the first time. Partners join the billion dollar club. So you wonder about partnering and all this funding and everything that’s working through Now you’re seeing press releases and companies that are redoing their LinkedIn branding about joining this illustrious club without a product to sell and all the services that wrap around it. [00:24:10] Jay McBain: So the opening session on Microsoft was interesting because there’s been a number of changes that Microsoft has done just in the last 30 days. One is they cut distribution by two thirds going from 180 distributors to 62. They cut out any small partner lower than a thousand dollars, and that doesn’t sound like a lot, but that’s over a hundred thousand partners that get deed tightening the long tail. [00:24:38] Jay McBain: They we’re the first to really put a global point system in place three years ago. They went to the new commerce experience. If you remember, all kinds of changes being led by. The biggest company for the channel. And so when we’re studying marketplaces, we’re not just studying the three hyperscalers, we’re studying what TD Cynic is doing with Stream One Ingram’s doing with Advant Advantage Aerosphere. [00:25:01] Jay McBain: Also, we’re watching what PAX eight, who by the way, is the 365 bestseller for Microsoft in the world. They are the cybersecurity leader for Microsoft in the world and the copilot. Leader in the world for Microsoft and Partner of the Year for Microsoft. So we’re watching what the cloud platforms are doing, watching what the Telco are doing, which is 25 cents out of every dollar, if you remember that pie chart, watching what the biggest resellers are converting themselves into. [00:25:30] Jay McBain: Vince just mentioned, you know, SHI in the changes there watching the managed services market and the leaders there, what they’re doing in terms of how this industry’s moving forward. By the way, managed services at $608 billion this year. Is one and a half times larger than the SaaS industry overall. [00:25:48] Jay McBain: It’s also one and a half times larger than all the hyperscalers combined. Oracle, Alibaba, IBM, all the way down. This is a massive market and it makes up 15 to 20 cents of every dollar the customer spend. We’re watching that industry hit a trillion dollars by the end of the decade, and we’re watching 150 different marketplace development platforms, the distribution of our industry, which today is 70.1% indirect. [00:26:13] Jay McBain: We’re starting to see that number, uh, solidify in terms of marketplaces as well. Watching distributors go from that linear warehouse in a bank to this orchestration model, watching some of the biggest players as the world comes around, platforms, it tightens around the place. So Caresoft, uh, from from here is the sixth biggest distributor in the world. [00:26:40] Jay McBain: Just shows you how big the. You know, biggest client in the world is that they serve. But understand that we’re publishing the distributor 500 list, but it’ll be the same thing. That little group in blue in the middle today, you know, drives almost two thirds of the market. So what happens in all this next stage in terms of where the dollars change hands. [00:27:07] Jay McBain: And the economics of partnering themselves are going through the most radical shift that we’ve seen ever. So back to the nineties, and, and for those of you that have been channel chiefs and running programs, we went to work every day. You know, everything’s on fire. We’re trying to check hundred boxes, trying to make our program 10% better than our competitors. [00:27:30] Jay McBain: Hey, we gotta fix our deal registration program today, and our incentives are outta whack or training programs or. You know, not where they need to be. Our certification, you know, this was the life of, uh, of a channel chief. Everybody thought we were just out drinking in the Caribbean with our best partners, but we were under the weight of this. [00:27:49] Jay McBain: But something interesting has happened is that we turned around and put the customer at the middle of our programs to say that those 28 moments in green before the sale are really, really important. And the seven partners who participate are really important. Understanding. The customer’s gonna buy a seven layer stack. [00:28:09] Jay McBain: They’re gonna buy it With these seven partners, the procurement stage is much different. The growth of marketplaces, the growth of direct in some of these areas, and then long term every 30 days forever in a managed service, implementations, integrations, how you upsell, cross-sell, enrich a deal changes. So how would you build a program that’s wrapped around the customer instead of the vendor? [00:28:35] Jay McBain: And we’re starting to hear our partners shout back to us. These are global surveys, big numbers, but over half of our partners, regardless of type, are selling consulting to their customer. Over half are designing architecting deals. A third of them are trying to be system integrators showing up at those implementation integration moments. [00:28:55] Jay McBain: Two thirds of them are doing managed services, but the shocking one here is 44% of our partners, regardless of type, are coding. They’re building agents and they’re out helping their customer at that level. So this is the modern partner that says, don’t typecast me. You may have thought of me in your program. [00:29:14] Jay McBain: You might have me slotted as a var. Well, I do 3.2 things, and if I don’t get access to those resources, if you don’t walk me to that room, I’m not gonna do them with you. You may have me as a managed service provider that’s only in the morning. By the afternoon I’m coding, and by the next morning I’m implementing and consulting. [00:29:33] Jay McBain: So again, a partner’s not a partner. That Venn diagram is a very loose one now, as every partner on there is doing 3.2 different business models. And again, they’re telling us for 43 years, they said, I want more leads this year it changed. For the first time, I want to be recognized and incentivized as more than just a cash register for you. [00:29:57] Jay McBain: I want you to recognize when I’m consulting, when I’m designing, when you’re winning deals, because of my wonderful services, by the way, we asked the follow up question, well, where should we spend our money with you? And they overwhelmingly say, in the consulting stage, you win and lose deals. Not at moment 28. [00:30:18] Jay McBain: We’re not buying a pack of gum at the gas station. This is a considered purchase. You win deals from moment 12 through 16 and I’m gonna show you a picture of that later, and they say, you better be spending your money there, or you’re not gonna win your fair share or more than your fair share of deals. [00:30:36] Jay McBain: The shocking thing about this is that Microsoft, when they went to the point system, lifted two thirds of all the money, tens of billions of dollars, and put it post-sale, and we were all scratching our heads going. Well, if the partners are asking for it there, and it seems like to beat your biggest competitors, you want to win there. [00:30:54] Jay McBain: Why would you spend the money on renewal? Well, they went to Wall Street and Goldman Sachs and the people who lift trillions of dollars of pension funds and said, if we renew deals at 108%, we become a cash machine for you. And we think that’s more valuable than a company coming out with a new cell phone in September and selling a lot of them by Christmas every year. [00:31:18] Jay McBain: The industry. And by the way, wall Street responded, Microsoft has been more valuable than Apple since. So we talk in this now multiplier language, and these are reports that we write, uh, at AMIA at canals. But talking about the partner opportunity in that customer cycle, the $6 and 40 cents you can make for every dollar of consumption, or the $7 and 5 cents you can make the $8 and 45 cents you can make. [00:31:46] Jay McBain: There’s over 24 companies speaking at this level now, and guess what? It’s not just cloud or software companies. Hardware companies are starting to speak in this language, and on January 25th, Cisco, you know, probably second to Microsoft in terms of trust built with the channel globally is moving to a full point system. [00:32:09] Jay McBain: So these are the changes that happen fast. But your QBR with your partners now less about drinking beers at the hotel lobby bar and talking dollar by dollar where these opportunities are. So if you’re doing 3.2 of these things, let’s build out a, uh, a play where you can make $3 for every dollar that we make. [00:32:28] Jay McBain: And you make that profitably. You make it in sticky, highly retained business, and that’s the model. ’cause if you make $3 for every dollar. We make, you’re gonna win Partner of the year, and if you win partner of the year, that piece of glass that you win on stage, by the time you get back to your table, you’re gonna have three offers to buy your business. [00:32:51] Jay McBain: CDW just bought a w. S’s Partner of the Year. Insight bought Google’s eight time partner of the year. Presidio bought ServiceNow’s, partner of the year over and over and over again. So I’m at Octane, I’m at CrowdStrike, I’m at all these events in Vegas every week. I’m watching these partners of the year. [00:33:05] Jay McBain: And I’m watching as the big resellers. I’m watching as the GSIs and the m and a folks are surrounding their table after, and they’re selling their businesses for SaaS level valuations. Not the one-to-one service valuation. They’re getting multiples because this is the new future of our industry. This is platform economics. [00:33:25] Jay McBain: This is winning and platforms for partners. Now, like Vince, I spent 20 minutes without talking about ai, but we have to talk about ai. So the next 20 years as it plays out is gonna play out in phases. And the first thing you know to get it out of the way. The first two years since that March of 23, has been underwhelming, to say the least. [00:33:47] Jay McBain: It’s been disappointing. All the companies that should have won the biggest in AI have been the most disappointing. It’s underperformed the s and p by a considerable amount in terms of where we are. And it goes back to this. We always overestimate the first two years, but we underestimate the first 10. [00:34:07] Jay McBain: If you wanna be the point in time person and go look at that 1983 PC or the 1995 internet or that 2007 iPhone or that whatever point in time you wanna look at, or if you want to talk about hallucinations or where chat chip ET version five is version, as opposed to where it’s going to be as it improves every six months here on in. [00:34:30] Jay McBain: But the fact of the matter is, it’s been a consumer trend. Nvidia got to be the most valuable company in the world. OpenAI was the first company to 2 billion users, uh, in that amount of speed. It’s the fastest growing product ever in history, and it’s been a consumer win this trillions of dollars to get it thrown around in the press releases. [00:34:49] Jay McBain: They’re going out every day, you know, open ai, signing up somebody new or Nvidia, investing in somebody new almost every single day in hundreds of billions of dollars. It is all happening really on the consumer side. So we got a little bit worried and said, is that 96% of surround gonna work in ag agentic ai? [00:35:10] Jay McBain: So we went and asked, and the good news is 88% of end customers are using partners to work through their ag agentic strategy. Even though they’re moving slow, they’re actually using partners. But what’s interesting from a partner perspective, and this is new research that out till 2030. This is the number one services opportunity in the entire tech or telco industry. [00:35:34] Jay McBain: 35.3% compounded growth ending at $267 billion in services. Companies are rebuilding themselves, building out practices, and getting on this train and figuring out which vendors they should hook their caboose to as those trains leave the station. But it kind of plays out like this. So in the next three to five years, we’re in this generative, moving into agentic phase. [00:36:01] Jay McBain: Every partner thinks internally first, the sales and marketing. They’re thinking about their invoicing and billing. They’re thinking about their service tickets. They’re thinking about creating a business that’s 10% better than their competitors, taking that knowledge into their customers and drive in business. [00:36:17] Jay McBain: But we understand that ag agentic AI, as it’s going to play out is not a product. A couple of years ago, we thought maybe a copilot or an agent force or something was going to be the product that everybody needed to buy, and it’s not a product, it’s gonna show up as a feature. So you go back in the history of feature ads and it’s gonna show up in software. [00:36:38] Jay McBain: So if you’re calling in SMB, maybe you’re calling on a restaurant. The restaurant isn’t gonna call OpenAI or call Microsoft or call Nvidia directly. They’re running their restaurant. And they may have chosen a platform like Toast Square, Clover, whatever iPads people are running around with, runs on a platform that does everything in their business, does staffing, does food ordering, works with Uber Eats, does everything end to end? [00:37:08] Jay McBain: They’re gonna wait to one of those platforms, dries out agent AI for them, and can run the restaurant more effectively, less human capital and more consistently, but they wait for the SaaS platform as you get larger. A hundred, 150 people. You have vice presidents. Each of those vice presidents already have a SaaS stack. [00:37:28] Jay McBain: I talked about Salesforce, ServiceNow, Workday, et cetera. They’ve already built that seven layer model and in some cases it’s 70 layers. But the fact is, is they’re gonna wait for those SaaS layers to deliver ag agentic to them. So this is how it’s gonna play out for the next three and a half, three to five years. [00:37:45] Jay McBain: And partners are realizing that many of them were slow to pick up SaaS ’cause they didn’t resell it. Well now to win in this next three to half, three to five years, you’re gonna have to play in this environment. When you start looking out from here, the next generation, you know, kind of five through 15 years gets interesting in more of a physical sense. [00:38:06] Jay McBain: Where I was yesterday talking about every IOT device that now is internet access, starts to get access to large language models. Every little sensor, every camera, everything that’s out there starts to get smart. But there’s a point. The first trillionaire, I believe, will be created here. Elon’s already halfway there. [00:38:24] Jay McBain: Um, but when Bill Gates thought there was gonna be a PC in every home, and IBM thought they were gonna sell 10,000 to hobbyists, that created the richest person in the world for 20 years, there will be a humanoid in every home. There’s gonna be a point in time that you’re out having drinks with your friends, and somebody’s gonna say, the early adopter of your friends is gonna say. [00:38:46] Jay McBain: I haven’t done the dishes in six weeks. I haven’t done the laundry. I haven’t made my bed. I haven’t mowed the lawn. When they say that, you’re gonna say, well, how? And they’re gonna say, well, this year I didn’t buy a new car, but I went to the car dealership and I bought this. So we’re very close to the dexterity needed. [00:39:05] Jay McBain: We’ve got the large language models. Now. The chat, GPT version 10 by then is going to make an insane, and every house is gonna have one of the. [00:39:17] Jay McBain: This is the promise of ai. It’s not humanoid robots, it’s not agents. It’s this. 99% of the world’s business data has not been trained or tuned into models yet. Again, this is the slow moving business. If you want to think about the 99% of business data, every flight we’ve all taken in this room sits on a saber system that was put in place in 1964. [00:39:43] Jay McBain: Every banking transaction, we’ve all made, every withdrawal, every deposit sits on an IBM mainframe put in place in the sixties or seventies. 83% of this data sits in cold storage at the edge. It’s not ready to be moved. It’s not cleansed, it’s not, um, indexed. It’s not in any format or sitting on any infrastructure that a large language model will be able to gobble up the data. [00:40:10] Jay McBain: None of the workflows, none of the programming on top of that data is yet ready. So this is your 10 to 20 year arc of this era that chat bot today when they cancel your flight is cute. It’s empathetic, it feels bad for you, or at least it seems to, but it can’t do anything. It can’t book you the Marriott and get you an Uber and then a 5:00 AM flight the next morning. [00:40:34] Jay McBain: It can’t do any of that. But more importantly, it doesn’t know who you are. I’ve got 53 years of flights under my belt and they, I’m the person that get me within six hours of my kids and get me a one-way Hertz rental. You know, if there’s bad weather in Miami, get me to Tampa, get me a Hertz, I’m driving home, I’m gonna make it home. [00:40:56] Jay McBain: I’m not the 5:00 AM get me a hotel person. They would know that if they picked up the flights that I’ve taken in the past. Each of us are different. When you get access to the business data and you become ag agentic, everything changes. Every industry changes because of this around the customers. When you ask about this 35% growth, working on that data, working in traditional consulting and design and implementation, working in the $7 trillion of infrastructure, storage, compute, networking, that’s gonna be around, this is a massive opportunity. [00:41:30] Jay McBain: Services are gonna continue to outgrow products. Probably for the next five to 10 years because of this, and I’m gonna finish here. So we talked a lot about quantifying names, faces, places, and I think where we failed the most as ultimate partners is underneath the tam, which every one of our CEOs knows to the decimal point underneath the TAM that our board thinks they’re chasing. [00:41:59] Jay McBain: We’ve done a very poor job. Of talking about the available markets and obtainable markets underneath it, we, we’ve shown them theory. We’ve shown them a bunch of, you know, really smart stuff, and PowerPoint slides up the wazoo, but we’ve never quantified it for them. If they wanna win, if they want to get access, if they want to double their pipeline, triple their pipeline, if they wanna start winning more deals, if they wanna win deals that are three times larger, they close two times faster. [00:42:31] Jay McBain: And they renew 15% larger. They have to get into the available and obtainable markets. So just in the last couple weeks I spoke at Cribble, I spoke at Octane, I spoke at CrowdStrike Falcon. All three of those companies at the CEO level, main stage use those exact three numbers, three x, two x, 15%. That’s the language of platforms, and they’re investing millions and millions and millions of dollars on teams. [00:42:59] Jay McBain: To go build out the Sam Andal in name spaces and places. So you’ve heard me talk about these 28 moments a lot. They’re the ones that you spend when you buy a car. Some people spend one moment and they drive to the Cadillac dealership. ’cause Larry’s been, you know, taking care of the family for 50 years. [00:43:18] Jay McBain: Some people spend 50 moments like I do, watching every YouTube video and every, you know, thing on the internet. I clear the internet cover to cover. But the fact is, is every deal averages around these 28 moments. Your customer, there’s 13 members of the buying committee today. There’s seven partners and they’re buying seven things. [00:43:37] Jay McBain: There’s 27 things orchestrating inside these 28 moments. And where and how they all take place is a story of partnering. So a couple of years ago, canals. Latin for channel was acquired by amia, which is a part of Informa Tech Target, which is majority owned by Informa. All that being said, there’s hundreds of magazines that we have. [00:44:00] Jay McBain: There’s hundreds of events that we run. If somebody’s buying cybersecurity, they probably went to Black Hat or they probably went to GI Tech. One of these events we run, or one of the magazines. So we pick up these signals, these buyer intent signals as a company. Why did they wanna, um, buy a, uh, a Canals, which was a, you know, a small analyst firm around channels? [00:44:22] Jay McBain: They understood this as well. The 28 moments look a lot like this when marketers and salespeople are busy filling in the spots of every deal. And by the way, this is a real deal. AstraZeneca came in to spend millions of dollars on ASAP transformation, and you can start to see as the customer got smart. [00:44:45] Jay McBain: The eBooks, they read the podcasts, they listened to the events they went to. You start to see how this played out over the long term. But the thing we’ve never had in our industry is the light blue boxes. This deal was won and lost in December. In this particular case, NTT software won and Yash came in and sold the customer five projects. [00:45:07] Jay McBain: The millions of dollars that were going to be spent were solved here. The design and architecture work was all done here. A couple of ISVs You see in light blue came in right at the end, deal was closed in April. You see the six month cycle. But what if you could fill in every one of the 28 boxes in every single customer prospect that your sales and marketing team have? [00:45:30] Jay McBain: But here’s the brilliance of this. Those light blue boxes didn’t win the deals there. They won the deals months before that. So when NTT and Software one walked into this deal. They probably won the deal back in October and they had to go through the redlining. They had to go through the contracting, they had to go through all the stuff and the Gantt chart to get started. [00:45:54] Jay McBain: But while your CMO is getting all excited about somebody reading an ebook and triggering an MQL that the sales team doesn’t want, ’cause it’s not qualified, it’s not sales qualified, you walk in and say, no, no. This is a multimillion deal, dollar deal. It’s AstraZeneca. I know the five partners that are coming in in December to solidify the seven layers, and you’re walking in at the same time as the CMOs bragging about an ebook. [00:46:21] Jay McBain: This changes everything. If we could get to this level of data about every dollar of our tam, we not only outgrow our competitors, we become the platforms of the next generation. Partnering and ultimate partnering is all here. And this is what we’re doing in this room. This is what we’re doing over these couple of days, and this is what, uh, the mission that Vince is leading. [00:46:43] Jay McBain: Thank you so much. [00:46:47] Vince Menzione: Woo. Day in the house. Good to see you my friend. Good to see you. Oh, we’re gonna spend a couple minutes. Um, I’m put you in the second seat. We’re gonna put, we’re gonna make it sit fireside for a minute. Uh, that was intense. It was pretty incredible actually, Jay. And so I’m, I think I wanna open it up ’cause we only have a few minutes just to, any questions? [00:47:06] Vince Menzione: I’m sure people are just digesting. We already have one up here. See, [00:47:09] Question: Jay knows I’m [00:47:10] Vince Menzione: a question. I love it. We, I don’t think we have any I can grab a mic, a roving mic. I could be a roving mic person. Hold on. We can do this. This is not on. [00:47:25] Vince Menzione: Test, test. Yes it is. Yeah. [00:47:26] Question: Theresa Carriol dared me to ask a question and I say, you don’t have to dare me. You know, I’m going to Anyway. Um, so Jay, of the point of view that with all of the new AI players that strategic alliances is again having a moment, and I was curious your point of view on what you’re seeing around this emergence and trend of strategic alliances and strategic alliance management. [00:47:52] Question: As compared to channel management. And what are you seeing in terms of large vendors like AWS investing in that strategic alliance role versus that channel role training, enablement, measurement, all that good stuff? [00:48:06] Jay McBain: Yeah, it’s, it’s a great question. So when I told the story about toast at the restaurant or Square or Clover, they’re not call, they’re not gonna call open AI or Nvidia themselves either. [00:48:17] Jay McBain: When you look out at the 250,000 ISVs. That make up this AI stack, there is the layers that happen there. So the Alliance with AWS, the alliance they have with Microsoft or Google is going to be how they generate agent AI in their platforms. So when I talk about a seven layer stack, the average deal being seven layers, AI is gonna drive this to nine, and then 11, then probably 13. [00:48:44] Jay McBain: So in terms of how alliances work, I had it up there as one of the five core strategies, and I think it’s pretty even. You can have the best alliances in the world, but if the seven partners trusted by the customer don’t know what that alliance is and the benefits to the customer and never mention it, it’s all for Naugh. [00:49:00] Jay McBain: If you’re go-to market, you’re co-selling, your co-marketing strategies are not built around that alliance. It’s all for naught. If the integration and the co-innovation, the co-development, the all the co-creation work that’s done inside these alliances isn’t translated to customer outcomes, it’s all for naugh. [00:49:17] Jay McBain: These are all five parallel swim lanes. All five are absolutely critically needed. And I think they’re all five pretty equally weighted in terms of needing each other. Yes. To be successful in the era of platforms. Yeah. [00:49:32] Vince Menzione: And the problem is they’re all stove pipe today. If, if at all. Yeah. Maintained, right. [00:49:36] Vince Menzione: Alliances is an example. Channels and other example. They don’t talk to one another. Judge any, we’ve got a mic up here if anybody else has. Yep. We have some questions here, Jacqueline. [00:49:51] Question: So when we’re developing our channel programs, any advice on, you know, what’s the shift that we should make six months from now, a year from now? The historical has been bronze, silver, gold, right? And you’ve got your deal registration, but what’s the future look like? [00:50:05] Jay McBain: Yeah, so I mean, the programs are, are changing to, to the point where the customer should be in the middle and realizing the seven partners you need to win the deal. [00:50:15] Jay McBain: And depending on what category of product you’re in, security, how much you rely on resell, 91.6%. You know, the channel partners are gonna be critical where the customer spends the money. And if you’re adding friction to that process, you’re adding friction in terms of your growth. So you know, if you’re in cybersecurity, you have to have a pretty wide open reseller model. [00:50:39] Jay McBain: You have to have a wide open distribution model, and you have to make sure you’re there at that point of sale. While at the same time, considering the other six partners at moment 12 who are in either saying nice things about you or not, the customer might even be starting with you. ’cause there is actually one thing that I didn’t mention when I showed the 28 moments filled in. [00:51:00] Jay McBain: You’ll notice that the customer went to AWS twice direct. AWS lost the deal. Microsoft won the deal software. One is Microsoft’s biggest reseller in the world. They just acquired crayon. NTT who, who loves both had their Microsoft team go in. [00:51:18] Question: Mm. [00:51:19] Jay McBain: So I think that they went to AWS thinking it was A-W-S-S-A-P, you know, kind of starting this seven layer stack. [00:51:25] Jay McBain: I think they finished those, you know, critical moments in the middle looking at it. And then they went back to AWS kind of going probably WWTF. Yeah. What we thought was happening isn’t actually the outcome that was painted by our most trusted people. So, you know, to answer your question, listen to your partners. [00:51:43] Jay McBain: They want to be recognized for the other things they’re doing. You can’t be spending a hundred percent of the dollars at the point of sale. You gotta have a point of system that recognizes the point of sale, maybe even gold, silver, bronze, but recognizing that you’re paying for these other moments as well. [00:51:57] Jay McBain: Paying for alliances, paying for integrations and everything else, uh, in the cyber stack. And, um, you know, recognizing also the top 1000. So if I took your tam. And I overlaid those thousand logos. I would be walking into 2026 the best I could of showing my company logo by logo, where 80% of our TAM sits as wallet share, not by revenue. [00:52:25] Jay McBain: Remember, a million dollar partner is not a million dollar partner. One of them sells 1.2 million in our category. We should buy them a baseball cap and have ’em sit in the front row of our event. One of them sells $10 million and only sells our stuff if the customer asks. So my company should be looking at that $9 million opportunity and making sure my programs are writing the checks and my coverage. [00:52:48] Jay McBain: My capacity and capability planning is getting obsessed over that $9 million. My farmers can go over there, my hunters can go over here, and I should be submitting a list of a thousand sorted in descending order of opportunity. Of where my company can write program dollars into. [00:53:07] Vince Menzione: Great answer. All right. I, I do wanna be cognizant of time and the, all the other sessions we have. [00:53:14] Vince Menzione: So we’ll just take one other question if there are any here and if not, we’ll let I know. Jay, you’re gonna be mingling around for a little while before your flight. I’m [00:53:21] Jay McBain: here the whole day. [00:53:22] Vince Menzione: You, you’re the whole day. I see that Jay’s here the whole day. So if you have any other questions and, and, uh, sharing the deck is that. [00:53:29] Vince Menzione: Yep. Alright. We have permission to share the deck with the each of you as well. [00:53:34] Jay McBain: Alright, well thank you very much everyone. Jay. Great to have you.

Welcome back to the Ultimate Guide to Partnering® Podcast. AI agents are your next customers. Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ In this episode, Vince Menzione sits down with SHI leaders Joseph Bellian and Stefanie Dunn, alongside Microsoft's Marcus Jewett, to dissect SHI's massive evolution from a traditional Large Account Reseller (LAR) to a strategic Global Systems Integrator (GSI). They explore the cultural and operational shifts required to move from a transaction-heavy model to a services-led approach, highlighting their alignment with Microsoft's MSEM methodology, the implementation of the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS), and their cutting-edge work with AI Labs and Agentic AI. Key Takeaways SHI has evolved from a transactional powerhouse into a Global Systems Integrator (GSI) focused on services and outcomes. The organization implemented the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) to align vision, people, and data across sales and delivery. SHI serves as “Customer Zero” for Microsoft AI, implementing Copilot internally to better guide customers. The partnership mirrors Microsoft's MSEM methodology to ensure seamless co-selling and customer success lifecycles. SHI's AI Labs in New Jersey provides a secure environment for clients to build and test custom AI solutions. The shift requires moving from a “Hulk” (strength/sales) mindset to a “Tony Stark” (brainpower/strategy) mindset. Key Tags: SHI International, global systems integrator, Microsoft services, Joseph Bellian, Stefanie Dunn, Marcus Jewett, AI labs, agentic AI, MSEM methodology, entrepreneurial operating system, digital transformation, customer zero, copilot implementation, solution provider, cloud migration, data governance, services led growth. Ultimate Partner is the independent community for technology leaders navigating the tectonic shifts in cloud, AI, marketplaces, and co-selling. Through live events, UPX membership, advisory, and the Ultimate Guide to Partnering® podcast, we help organizations align with hyperscalers, accelerate growth, and achieve their greatest results through successful partnering. Transcript:Transcript: Joseph Bellian – Stefanie Dunn – Marcus Jewett WORKFILE AUDIO [00:00:00] Vince Menzione: We’ve got it. So it is interesting how these sessions kind of follow each other. Hopefully you’re seeing kind of a flow from marketplaces and the conversation about how to be a really great ISV to how an ISV took and built a channel strategy and how they integrated alliances and channels together. [00:00:16] Vince Menzione: Well, we have an, we have another really great example here to talk through. I have this, uh, incredible like background. Like I’m a hundred years old, basically. I don’t even want to tell anybody that. But, uh, I got to work with this organization way back in my days at Microsoft. They are, they were and are one of the top, I’ll call them, they were classically a reseller company. [00:00:40] Vince Menzione: They one of the largest, we call ’em large account resellers back in the day. Uh, their leader built a multi-billion dollar organization. I’m gonna let them talk through who they are today, but we have an opportunity to talk about transformation. From that lens now too, like how does an organization that’s really good at doing one thing evolve, transform and take advantage of these tectonic shifts we’re seeing? [00:01:03] Vince Menzione: So, uh, we’ve got some incredible leaders. I’m gonna have them come up on stage. And everybody introduced themselves from SHI and also from Microsoft. And we’re gonna have a really great conversation today. Great to have you. [00:01:26] Vince Menzione: So I’m gonna let, I’m gonna let you guys introduce yourselves because, uh, everybody knows you as DJ Marco Polo. So we’re gonna, we’ll start with you over in the far end, Marcus. Okay. Vince, I, [00:01:36] Marcus Jewett: I’ll try to be shy. [00:01:37] Vince Menzione: No, [00:01:37] Marcus Jewett: uh, hi everyone, my name is Marcus Jut, I am the Global Partner Development Manager for the SHI partnership. [00:01:43] Marcus Jewett: Uh, I have been overseeing this partnership for just under 12 years. Wow. So I have seen the evolutional journey of this partner and really proud of where they, uh, have matured their business and the partnership with Microsoft. [00:01:57] Stefanie Dunn: Thank you. Oh. [00:01:58] Marcus Jewett: Is there, is yours on? Oh, [00:02:00] Vince Menzione: mines [00:02:00] Stefanie Dunn: on. Hi, I am Stephanie Dunn, a director of Microsoft Services at SHI. [00:02:07] Stefanie Dunn: And it is an, it’s a pleasure to be here. It’s a pleasure to have Marcus as our PDM and, uh, Joe and Vince, uh, very, very happy to be here. Um, and I lead our Microsoft Services sales, uh, area. So across, uh, cloud AI business transformation and, uh. And, uh, data and ai. [00:02:28] Joseph Bellian: Great, great to have you, Stephanie. Thank you. [00:02:30] Joseph Bellian: Joe. Joe Bellion. I’m the VP of Microsoft Alliances and programs. Uh, I’ve been here at SHI for about eight months now, but been in and around the partner ecosystem for about a decade. Uh, I think of my organization of like kind of two aspects. So leading the charge around alliances, aligning our field sellers and specialists with Microsoft, as well as the, the programs backend incentives and operations. [00:02:51] Joseph Bellian: But, um, the real focus is driving the go to market strategy here at SHI. [00:02:55] Vince Menzione: Yeah. So great. So I started to allude to this earlier about like traditional, one of the top three or four companies actually. And we used to use the term, uh, LSP back in the day, or lar, we’ve got several iterations. Microsoft’s gone through several iterations of that name. [00:03:11] Vince Menzione: Marcus knows all of them probably by heart. Tell us what was the impetus to change the organization? Become more like a ser, a services led company as opposed to a transaction led organization? [00:03:21] Joseph Bellian: Yeah, absolutely. Throw one more acronym. SSP. SSP, that was another one. So, uh, solution provider. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I’d say probably a couple things. [00:03:29] Joseph Bellian: Um, one, the big one, no news to anybody in the room and online as well. The shift with EAs, director of Microsoft, as well as, uh, the whole CSP hero motion. So we do recognize that opportunity, uh, to have services attached, to engage with our clients as well as our joint partnerships with Microsoft, uh, with services out in the field. [00:03:48] Joseph Bellian: Uh, the second one, probably the biggest one is our clients. Hearing out our clients that shift. Um, we’re talking about ai, ai, everything, AI services. Uh, we’re now in the whole era of agentic ai. What does that mean? How do you take advantage of those offerings? And so we recognize that, that our clients are spending millions of dollars with the Microsoft products, but how do you take advantage of that investment and maximize it in their environment? [00:04:13] Joseph Bellian: And so having services to help navigate those complex solutions, that’s where we’re, we’re leaning in. [00:04:18] Vince Menzione: So what did it take to change? Transformation doesn’t come easy. There’s mindset. There’s all these cultural changes that need to happen. From your perspective, both of your perspectives, what did it take internally for this change to happen? [00:04:31] Joseph Bellian: Yeah. Um, so if you, if you heard of the entrepreneurial operating system EOS Yes. And we’ve adopted that internally. Um, if you’re not familiar, it kind of comprises of six components. So vision, people, data, um, process. Issues and, um, uh, traction. So I apologize, that’s, uh, but take, take that model and put it into our business of what we did. [00:04:57] Joseph Bellian: Um, so two kind of twofold. One, moving our entire services practice organization under one, one operating rhythm, um, under Jordan Ello, our CTO. So pre-sales and delivery. So looking at that, the how we go to market with our services, single vision. Uh, single process. So it’s consistent as we’re engaging not only through our partners, but through our clients, but then also on the other side of the house, our Microsoft practice, having all of our resources under one roof so that it’s a single way we go to market. [00:05:28] Joseph Bellian: Aligning our go to market strategy, one-to-one with Microsoft. Why it, it does two things. One, it allows us to be very clear of how we are going to market to our clients, but it allows us to partner even better with our Microsoft counterparts. Yeah, when, when Microsoft, it’s always ever changing. You’re familiar, every six months to a year solution plays and the go-to-market strategy changes, uh, we’re there at the forefront in ensuring that we have our solutions mapped a hundred percent so that we can just co-sell together. [00:05:58] Joseph Bellian: Break down those walls. Let’s do more together. [00:06:00] Vince Menzione: And, uh, geographically you were sep, your teams were separated. You have a big operation in Texas. You also have a big New Jersey operation, which was where the company was founded, in fact. So I’d love to get the perspective on this, Marcus. From your perspective, like what did it do, what was it like before and what did it become? [00:06:17] Marcus Jewett: Oh yeah, let’s go back in the way back machine to 12 years ago. Um, it was a different partner, a different operating model, uh, in those early days. And this is really when we started to move customers from on-premises to more cloud-based subscription technologies. Uh, SHI was always just an incredible selling machine. [00:06:36] Marcus Jewett: If they could not do anything, they could always sell. And for any of you who are familiar with the Marvel movies, um. I, I, I, I use a reference internally with them. SHI was always like the Hulk root for strength. You know, you tell ’em to go sell something, Hulk Smash, they can knock that out. Well, as we really needed these partners to evolve and really help our customers with their technologies, whether it’s driving adoption, monthly active usage, consumption. [00:07:02] Marcus Jewett: We needed them to be more like Tony Stark, right? We needed the brain power, and so over the last, let’s call it five or six years, SHI has continued to invest in their Microsoft practice. They went from an organization that was really focused on management of EA acquisition of new Microsoft logo. To continuing to develop that muscle, but also investing in ways to help customers through their managed services, through their professional services. [00:07:28] Marcus Jewett: And it’s been a, a journey. Right? SHI is a large organization. For a long time they were Microsoft’s largest partner. And from a transactional build revenue perspective, and they still are in many ways, but we really needed them to demonstrate that they could help our, their customers, our shared customers take full advantage of all of the entitlements and the technology they, that they’ve purchased from us. [00:07:50] Marcus Jewett: And that’s really where the evolution has been with SHI when I first started, uh, this is like, God, 12 years ago, there were 20 people that were Microsoft centric resources that really were focused on. Customer acquisition and net new logos. And today that organization from a sales perspective is over 150 sellers. [00:08:09] Marcus Jewett: Wow. That are just focused on Microsoft. So that CSP, they, they fill the top of the funnel for services to help drive program utilization. And that’s not even talking about the dedicated services resources that works under Stephanie. So it’s been. An incredible journey. Microsoft has invested in SHI and in turn, SHI has invested into Microsoft. [00:08:31] Marcus Jewett: They’ve basically taken their approach in terms of how they go to market with Microsoft, and they’ve mirrored that almost like how Joe and I are wearing the same jacket. That’s really how they’ve aligned their, their go to market strategy, really making it a mirror where they take it. They’ve taken our Microsoft M methodology. [00:08:50] Marcus Jewett: And they’ve essentially adopted it and made it their own. So now when our sellers are talking with SHI sellers, they’re speaking the same language. [00:08:58] Vince Menzione: You’re teeing it up beautifully for your conversation with Stephanie here. Stephanie, I want to hear like how you’ve done all those things. ’cause it’s really your organization that’s focused on this, right? [00:09:06] Stefanie Dunn: Yeah, absolutely. So for us it’s all about shared outcomes. It we’re listening to the. Customer. We’re listening to Microsoft and we’ve really taken that to heart. Uh, the customer is at the center of every single thing that we do. I know all of us as partners. That’s really our vision, likely, and the reason why we’re here is our customers. [00:09:26] Stefanie Dunn: But really understanding how to take advantage of that partnership and build something incredible. And it is transformative. Uh, you know, we started as a licensing powerhouse, as Marcus alluded to, and now we’re going deep into services. So we’re aligning to co-sell motions. We’re aligning to the, the industries. [00:09:46] Stefanie Dunn: Uh, we’re creating marketplace offers. We’ve got our programs, uh, tied to all of our services offerings. And so when we look at the broader ecosystem, we see the vision of Microsoft. Uh, we’ve hired the right people, we’ve put the right processes into place, and we have the technology expertise in-house to really share. [00:10:08] Stefanie Dunn: In the journey with our customers and leading them. [00:10:11] Vince Menzione: And you know, you talk about like solution plays. You talked about industry. People don’t always recognize this when you talk to Microsoft sellers. They’re very focused on the industry they’re in, and you have to have those conversations that, this came up earlier, but we never got into this. [00:10:25] Vince Menzione: But you’re aligning your solution plays, you’re aligning your conversations to be very like healthcare and education, all those different markets, right? [00:10:32] Stefanie Dunn: We are. We are, which is very new for SHI in the services industry, and so you know, we’re taking our CSP plays. Um, our licensing plays and really saying, well, what can you do with that? [00:10:43] Stefanie Dunn: Right. You know, how can we advise you? And then we, we dig into the actual industry verticals to, to get tactical with them. You know, it’s, it’s about providing the strategy. It’s about providing the extra hands. They all need extra hands. They, you know, our, our customers need us. As an extension of their team. [00:11:01] Stefanie Dunn: And so for us it’s really important to dig into that and, and be, and be that, that listening ear and you know, that expert in the room for them, uh, from advisory standpoint. And so all of our se services sellers are advisors as well. They’re not selling a product, they’re not selling, uh, something individual. [00:11:19] Stefanie Dunn: We are selling to. Fill and fulfill their goals and business outcomes, which is extremely unique, I will say, because we do have that end to end. So it does start with the licensing. It starts with assessing what you really have, meeting with those advisors, and then putting together a roadmap to help them. [00:11:37] Stefanie Dunn: Understand. Okay, well this is what it’s gonna take to get you here. Here’s our, uh, we love reverse timelines at SHI and so, um, it’s d minus din and so this is where you wanna go and this is when you wanna get there. So this is how we’re gonna help you, uh, along that roadmap. [00:11:53] Vince Menzione: I am gonna put you on the spot here with m Sem. [00:11:55] Vince Menzione: ’cause I think Microsoft finally laid out a process a couple years ago for you to like line up to, ’cause you were doing one piece of it before. Do you want to talk about m how em plays in here and how SHI is leveraging it? [00:12:07] Marcus Jewett: Right. So, uh, across our SEM stages, there are five different stages, and this is the customer journey from these, you know, pre-sales, scoping, uh, engagements with customers all the way through delivery. [00:12:19] Marcus Jewett: And then of course, like that customer success lifecycle and managed services. Again, this was not a language or a way that SHI really approached their business. Again, it was very much like, let’s. Get the customer to purchase on an EA or let’s renew the customer. And then once that cycle was complete, then it, it was almost like adding fries. [00:12:38] Marcus Jewett: Would you like some services with your ea? Right. And, uh, it took a, it took a while, right? Some very, uh, difficult conversations, but we were able to find, finally get the right people in the room to make the right investments. And now when you think about how SHI goes to market, they don’t necessarily leverage the term SEM internally, but. [00:12:59] Marcus Jewett: All of their customer methodologies or their sales methodologies in terms of how they service their customers aligns perfectly. Even when we get into the descriptive part of building out our, uh, partner business plan, we did that across every stage of the M SEM methodology. So that we can ensure that the teams at SHI are in perfect alignment with the teams at Microsoft. [00:13:20] Marcus Jewett: So, uh, I’m, I’m really excited about how we’ve been able to mature the practice and how SHI is now 100% aligned with Microsoft across all of our solution areas, whether it’s. Security, you know, cloud and infrastructure or AI business solutions. There’s a very mirrored approach to how we support customers. [00:13:39] Marcus Jewett: Yeah. I want [00:13:40] Vince Menzione: to double click on the AI component. You know, we were up here earlier, Irwin and I were up here talking about being a frontier firm, and I’ll open it up to all, all of you to individually answer this. I know, Marcus, you have some insights here about the ai. You mentioned AI already. But also to Stephanie and Joe about how you’re taking AI and modern work and workplace and, and, and, and addressing this market specifically. [00:14:07] Vince Menzione: Where, where, where do we wanna start there? [00:14:09] Joseph Bellian: Yeah. One big one. Um, if you’re not familiar, we have ai, an AI labs, um, onsite, uh, lab, and based out of Jersey, one of our headquarters. So on the forefront of the AI technology, but the real focus there is being able to meet with our clients and obviously joint partnerships, um, to build and develop solutions safe, um, offline in a safe, secure environment. [00:14:33] Joseph Bellian: Because let’s be honest, I mean, ai, it’s moving fast and, and we, we, we need to ensure that our data’s secure. Um, and there’s a lot of risk out there. And so we are partnering, um, um, out there with Nvidia and other other providers, um, but specifically with Microsoft in the cloud, um, and securing that environment. [00:14:51] Joseph Bellian: So AI Labs, bringing our clients in, building custom solutions, the area of a jet AI’s here. It’s [00:14:57] Vince Menzione: there. It is here. Yeah, it is here, Stephanie. [00:15:00] Stefanie Dunn: Thank you. Yes, and I’ll just add, uh, for, for our customers, they need to make sure that their foundation is right. You know, they’re coming from maybe all different other clouds. [00:15:09] Stefanie Dunn: They’ve, you know, got multi-tenant really understanding what their structure looks like, and then. Creating that secure foundation. So we’ve got a lot, you know, we do a lot around, uh, just full M 365 migrations and then into understanding the identity and the security baseline under that, making sure that that’s correct. [00:15:29] Stefanie Dunn: And then we can start journeying into some of these other conversations. Data governance, data engineering, uh, all that is extremely important. We have an entire dedicated team, uh, within services sales. Pre-sales with essays or solution architects and delivery, uh, as well as just the project management. [00:15:48] Stefanie Dunn: And, and it’s just this full life cycle to understand where are you and we need to make sure that, that your structure’s built correctly or else it’s never gonna succeed. So a little bit, we take it back to the foundation level, I’ll just say from a customer, uh, engagement perspective to make sure that what they wanna do, they can do securely. [00:16:06] Marcus Jewett: Very cool. I, I’d like to add one other piece there. Um, you know, obviously to Joe’s point earlier, like if anyone says they know exactly what the AI journey will look like for most customers in six months, they’re probably not telling you the truth. Right? This is, we’re, we’re building the plane in the air. [00:16:22] Marcus Jewett: But, uh, one thing Microsoft has really built a foundation on is looking at our partners. And the ones who have adopted AI internally, especially Microsoft Technologies, and we call it Customer zero, right? Ensuring working with partners who have invested in their internal usage of Microsoft AI technology. [00:16:41] Marcus Jewett: So it’s all the various flavors of copilot. Rolling it out and implementing it across their organizations and building their own internal use cases, which they can go in turn and use to go help drive successful engagements with their end customers. So SHI has also been one of our, uh, brightest partners when it comes to that customer Zero journey. [00:17:01] Marcus Jewett: Uh, and it’s something I’m very, very proud of to see. Uh, we’re leveraging the, the use cases and the learnings our SHI is to really go out there and help customers navigate through their own. Uh, complexities of their AI journey as well. So, uh, my kudos to SHI as customer. Zero. Very proud of you and opera feels great. [00:17:20] Marcus Jewett: And you’re [00:17:20] Vince Menzione: providing support engineering, organ organization that supports this function? [00:17:24] Marcus Jewett: Oh, absolutely. As a globally managed partner, I mean, we’re, we’re gonna always be there to help our partners through the journey, right? So whether they need internal readiness or technical support, uh, whether it’s workshops, however we can help the partners best. [00:17:38] Marcus Jewett: Uh, position and posture themselves to go help customers with these, uh, AI engagements. Uh, we’re, we’re there to invest. Uh, we’ve invested in SHI for the last several years across, uh, ai, and we will continue to do so. [00:17:52] Vince Menzione: So what’s the message for the partner community, Joe, that, that, like, how should they perceive you? [00:17:57] Vince Menzione: How should they think about you? Should they, how should they think about engaging with you? Okay. [00:18:02] Joseph Bellian: Yeah, so I mean, obviously we’re an SSP, we’re never gonna, we’re never gonna, um, lose that, that accreditation with Microsoft. But the, the real focus of what we wanna be recognized as A-G-S-I-A global systems integrator, um, being able to engage our clients jointly, co-selling together and meeting them where they’re at across their digital journey. [00:18:21] Joseph Bellian: Uh, we have the capabilities to handle their licensing and understanding the complex matrix in their environment, their IT infrastructure. But being able to have a solution for every part of the journey of where they’re at, because every client’s in a different situation. Yeah. So, so in reality, it’s A-G-S-I-A global systems integrator, being able to engage across their journey. [00:18:42] Vince Menzione: So that’s a, did everybody hear that? ’cause I, I heard that for the first time. That’s a very different perception of the, of the previous organization and getting there. Uh, and you also, I remember this from the transactional side of the business. You were at the very type, at the top of the pyramid, right? [00:18:56] Vince Menzione: Yeah. You handled some of the largest corporations in the, in the world. Yeah. And you know companies as well as organizations like government, governmental organizations across different markets as well. [00:19:07] Joseph Bellian: Yep. A hundred percent. [00:19:08] Vince Menzione: Yeah. So GS. Yeah. [00:19:11] Marcus Jewett: And it’s really important to, for SHI to, to develop that GSI muscle. [00:19:15] Marcus Jewett: Uh, you mentioned at the beginning, Joe, that Microsoft, uh, we have various routes to market. Uh, one of those routes to market, uh, especially in the enterprise space or in our strategic space, is for customers to procure direct. Uh, SHI has longstanding relationships with those customers, and as these customers renew their agreements into a direct model with Microsoft, the way they stay engaged and add value to these prop, uh, to these customers is through their services, their professional services, their managed services. [00:19:42] Marcus Jewett: So going back to Joe’s Point around really defining themselves as a, uh, A GSI, that is also an SSP has been paramount to their overall transformational journey and their overall success. [00:19:55] Vince Menzione: And you also work, so I would assume you work with some of the ISVs in the room too. Yeah, I would think there’s some really great relationships or synergies. [00:20:01] Vince Menzione: Is that, is that an area of muscle you’ve been building out or, yeah, it’s battle, it’s an opportunity. [00:20:06] Joseph Bellian: I mean, I, I believe you have a segment coming up as well on it, um, around NPO. Um, and so there’s a, there’s a play in every motion from services, play services attached through ISVs, your SaaS offers. Um, we do recognize that that’s an opportunity. [00:20:18] Joseph Bellian: Uh, we’re having great success when you look at the marketplace, um, through the multi private party offers. Um, it allows us to expand our footprint and take, uh, take advantage of those relationships and co-sell together. So, absolutely. Wow. [00:20:30] Vince Menzione: Very cool. So you’re gonna be around most of the day today? Yes. I hope. [00:20:34] Vince Menzione: Mm-hmm. So for the partners that are in the room, I think that great conversations with both of you, Stephanie and Joe, and, uh, great conversation. Is there anything else we wanna share with everyone? [00:20:46] Marcus Jewett: Uh, no. It’s just, I would, I would leave you all with the fact that, again, uh, for every partner. Uh, make certain that you, you’re finding a way to differentiate yourself and tell your story. [00:20:57] Marcus Jewett: Uh, you may be doing some amazing work, uh, but if you’re not finding ways to, to tell that story and make certain your customers, and for me, Microsoft, make certain that, that the Microsoft teams you’re working with have very clear understanding of what your capabilities are today, then you may be missing the mark. [00:21:13] Marcus Jewett: I, I, I use this analogy all the time. Uh, the largest retailer on the planet. Who is it? Come on, help me out. I’m sorry. Largest retailer. Box Box. Walmart. Walmart, that’s right. You can turn on a television on any given day and you will still see a Walmart commercial. So yes, tell your story. Yes, very [00:21:34] Joseph Bellian: smart move. [00:21:34] Joseph Bellian: And one more, um, I just wanna make sure I land out there, is the success and where we go from here. Um, it’s this right here in the room. Um, us partnering together, bringing the partner ecosystem together. Um, in reality, we’re not competing together. We should be collaborating together and working together, um, in our client’s joint environments. [00:21:52] Joseph Bellian: Microsoft says it well, it’s that one Microsoft story. It’s that better together story and the more we can work together, the more success we’ll have together. [00:22:00] Vince Menzione: Awesome. I want to thank you so much for your sponsorship and for being here. Uh, big news here, I think it should be like on the front page of the partner ecosystem journal that you’re now, you’re now GSII think that that says quite, that says volumes to, to the community out there. [00:22:15] Joseph Bellian: Yeah. [00:22:15] Vince Menzione: Thank you. [00:22:15] Joseph Bellian: Absolutely. [00:22:16] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you both for joining us. So great to have you both. Thank you. Thank you, Marcus, to have you as well. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you very much Stephanie. So great. So great to spend time with you. Thank you. And this.

Straight from re:Invent 2025, technology leaders from C3 AI, nCino, New Relic and Vercel reveal learnings, best practices and predictions for the future of Agentic AI.Topics Include:Four technology executives introduce their companies' AI innovations in fintech, cloud, enterprise software, and observability.Vercel built agents for code reviews, infrastructure optimization, and across finance, sales, and support functions.C3.ai deploys enterprise AI applications from scratch to production in six months for Fortune 500s.New Relic provides observability for AI systems and built agents that resolve infrastructure issues in real-time.Vercel's agents improve code quality by incorporating security and framework best practices into AI-generated output.C3.ai partnered with Department of Defense to autonomously produce mission-critical intelligence assessment reports from data.Industry shifted from copilots everywhere to agents that actually own outcomes and land the plane.New Relic moved beyond natural language translation to agents that execute actions and resolve issues autonomously.Panel debates whether Model Context Protocol or broader ecosystem approaches better enable agent interoperability and communication.Autonomy requires accountability: agent decisions must be explainable with traceable steps and replay capabilities built-in.Governance and security should be prerequisites for acceleration, not impediments—a critical mental model shift needed.Many enterprises struggle with process bottlenecks preventing them from harnessing high-quality agents despite having technology.Financial services must carefully balance where human discretion remains essential versus where agent autonomy justified.Will Jung envisions deeply continuous context enabling banks to deliver truly personalized insights without appearing creepy.Suraj Krishnan predicts agents will own outcomes by 2026, coordinating tools and other agents to achieve goals.Participants:Panelist: Merel Witteveen, SVP of Operations, C3.aiPanelist: Will Jung, Chief Technology Officer, nCinoPanelist: Suraj Krishnan, GVP of Engineering, New RelicPanelist: Aparna Sinha, Senior Vice President, Product, VercelModerator: Olawale Oladehin, Managing Director, NAMER Technology Segments (Enterprise, ISV, DNB, and Model Providers), Amazon Web ServicesSee how Amazon Web Services gives you the freedom to migrate, innovate, and scale your software company at https://aws.amazon.com/isv/

Agentforce is everywhere and everything but in speaking to many ISVs, they are still wondering when is the right time to lean into AI with more than just a story. Where in the hype cycle are we is something I wonder about a lot. So I set out to find an ISV that is actually succeeding in the Agentforce world and that journey led me to Igor Stosic, CEO of Quadrix Soft who make Goat Email on the AppExchange, as my next guest on How We Got There. They are actually selling the first Agentforce use cases for customers, which has to be making AEs covering those accounts VERY happy. Igor is based out of Serbia so we touch on the geographical benefits and challenges around being an ISV out of Europe. They've found a lot of success driving leads from the AppExchange from a gtm perspective. We touch on what has been working and mistakes made along the way, sharing transparent feedback about how to build an app that goes wide so you can know what works for customers and lean into those items.But then we dove into the main topic of Agentforce. We touched on various concepts like how they came up with the Agentforce use case, how they monetize the Agentforce element, and much more. A specific example a use case where they use Agentforce is variability of tone based on the location of the customer that you are interacting with - sending an email to someone in the US looks different from sending an email to someone in Germany.If you are curious about Agentforce, this episode is for you. This episode is brought to you by Tequity Advisors . Tequity Advisors is a global sell-side M&A advisory firm with core expertise in SaaS and ISVs, Salesforce, ServiceNow, SAP, Microsoft, all things Data and AI, and the hyper scaler MSP cloud ecosystems with a focus on the Salesforce ecosystem and beyond! #salesforce #isv #gtm #salesforcepartners #appexchange

Welcome back to the Ultimate Guide to Partnering® Podcast. AI agents are your next customers. Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://theultimatepartner.com/ebook-subscribe/ Check Out UPX:https://theultimatepartner.com/experience/ Jen Odess, Group Vice President of Partner Excellence at ServiceNow, joins Vince Menzione to discuss the company’s incredible transformation from an IT ticketing solution to a leading AI-native platform for business transformation. Jen dives deep into how ServiceNow has strategically invested in and infused AI into its unified platform over the last decade, enabling over a billion workflows daily. She also outlines the critical role of the partner ecosystem, which executes 87% of all implementations, and reveals the company’s strategic initiatives, including its commitment to the hyperscaler marketplaces, the goal to hit half a billion dollars in annual contract value for its Now Assist AI product, and the push for partners to adopt an ‘AI-native’ methodology to capitalize on the fact that customers still want over 70% of AI buying to be done through partners. Key Takeaways ServiceNow is an ‘AI-native’ company, having invested in and built AI directly into its unified platform for over a decade. The company’s core value today is in its unified AI platform, single data model, and leadership in workflows that connect the entire enterprise. ServiceNow will hit $500 million in annual contract value for its Now Assist AI products by the end of 2025, making it the fastest-growing product in company history. An astonishing 87% of all ServiceNow implementations are done by its global partner ecosystem, highlighting their crucial role. The company is leveraging the half-trillion-dollar opportunity of durable cloud budgets by driving marketplace transactions and helping customers burn down cloud commits using ServiceNow solutions. To win in the AI era, partners must adopt AI internally, co-innovate on the platform, and strategically differentiate themselves to rank higher in the forthcoming agentic matching system. Key Tags: ServiceNow, AI-native platform, Now Assist, Jen Odess, partner excellence, workflow leader, AI platform for business transformation, hyperscalers, Microsoft Azure, Google Cloud, AWS, marketplace transactions, cloud commits, AIDA model, agentic matching, F-Pattern, Z-Pattern, group vice president, MSP, GSI, co-innovation, autonomous implementation, technical constraints, visual hierarchy, UX, UI, responsive design. Ultimate Partner is the independent community for technology leaders navigating the tectonic shifts in cloud, AI, marketplaces, and co-selling. Through live events, UPX membership, advisory, and the Ultimate Guide to Partnering® podcast, we help organizations align with hyperscalers, accelerate growth, and achieve their greatest results through successful partnering. Transcript: Jen Odess Audio Podcast [00:00:00] Jen Odess: The AI platform for business transformation, and I love to say to people, it sounds like a handful of cliche words that just got stacked together. The AI platform for business transformation. Yeah. We all know these words, so many companies use ’em, but it is such deliberate language and I love to explain why. [00:00:20] Vince Menzione: Welcome to, or welcome back to The Ultimate Guide to Partnering. I’m Vince Menzi on your host, and my mission is to help leaders like you achieve your greatest results through successful partnering. Today we have a special leader, Jen Odes is the GVP for Partner Excellence at ServiceNow. And joins me here in the studio in Boca Raton. [00:00:40] Vince Menzione: Jen, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Vince. It’s so great to be here. I am so thrilled to welcome you. To Boca Raton, Florida. Our podcast home look at this amazing background we have Here is this, and this is where we host our ultimate partner Winter retreat. Actually, in February, we’re gonna give that a plug. [00:00:58] Vince Menzione: Okay. I’d love to have you come back. I’d love to have an invite. And you flew in this morning from Washington DC [00:01:04] Jen Odess: I did. It was 20 degrees when I left my house this morning and this backdrop. Is definitely giving me, island South Florida like vibes. It’s fabulous. [00:01:13] Vince Menzione: And we’re gonna talk about ServiceNow. [00:01:14] Vince Menzione: And you’re also opening an office down here? We [00:01:17] Jen Odess: are [00:01:17] Vince Menzione: in West Palm Beach. Not too far from where we are. Yes. Later 2026. Yeah. I love that. And then so we’ll work on the recruiting year, but let’s dive in. Okay. So thrilled to have ServiceNow and to have you in the room. This has been an incredible time for your organization. [00:01:31] Vince Menzione: I have been watching, obviously I work with Microsoft. We’ve had Google. In the studio, Amazon onboard as well. And other than those three organizations, I can’t think of any other legacy organization that has embraced AI more succinctly than ServiceNow. And I thought we’d start there, but I really wanna spend some time getting to know you and getting to know your role, your mission, and your journey to this incredible. [00:01:57] Vince Menzione: Leadership role as a global vice president. We’ll talk about Or [00:02:01] Jen Odess: group. Group Vice president. I know it doesn’t roll off the tongue. I get it. A group vice president doesn’t roll. [00:02:05] Vince Menzione: G-V-P-G-V-P doesn’t roll off the time. And in some organizations it is global. It is in other organizations, it’s group. So let’s, you’re not [00:02:12] Jen Odess: the first to say global vice president. [00:02:14] Jen Odess: Okay. I’ll take either way. It’s fine. [00:02:15] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Yeah. And might be a promotion. Let’s talk. Let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about you and your career journey and your mission. [00:02:22] Jen Odess: Yeah, so I’ve been at ServiceNow for five years. In fact, January will be like the five year anniversary and then it will be the beginning of my sixth year. [00:02:31] Jen Odess: Amazing. And I actually got hired originally to build out the initial partner enablement function. So it didn’t really exist five years ago. There was certainly enablement that happened to Sure. All individuals that were. Using, consuming, buying ServiceNow, working with ServiceNow. But the partner enablement function from pre to post-sale, that whole life cycle didn’t exist yet. [00:02:54] Jen Odess: So that was my initial job. I got hired to run partner enablement and it before. And how big [00:02:59] Vince Menzione: was your partner organization at that point? It must have been pretty small. [00:03:01] Jen Odess: It was actually not as small as you would think. Gosh, that’s a great question. You’re challenging my memory from five years ago. [00:03:08] Jen Odess: I know that we’re over 2,500 partners today and we add hundreds every year, so it had to have been in the low one thousands. Wow. Is where we were five years ago. But the maturity of the ecosystem is grossly larger today than it was then. I can imagine. So back then there was less than 30,000 individuals that were skilled on ServiceNow to sell or solution or deliver. [00:03:34] Jen Odess: Today there’s almost a hundred thousand. Wow. So yeah that’s like the maturity in the capability within the ecosystem. But before I start on my ServiceNow and my group vice president. Which is a great role, by the way. Group Vice President. Yeah. Partner Excellence group. I’m very proud of it. [00:03:49] Jen Odess: But but let me tell you what brought me here, please. So I actually came from a partner, but not in the ServiceNow ecosystem. Okay. I won’t name the partner, but let’s just say it’s a competitor, a competitive ecosystem. And I worked for a services shop that today I would refer to as multinational. [00:04:11] Jen Odess: Kind of a boutique darling, but with over 1,500 consultants, so Okay. A behemoth as well? Yeah. Privately held. And we were a force to be reckoned with, and it was really fun. I held so many roles. I was a customer success manager. I led the data science practice at one point. I ran global alliances and partnerships. [00:04:35] Jen Odess: At one point I was the chief of staff to the CEO at the time that company was acquired. Big global si. And and then at one point I even spun off for the big global SI and helped run a culture initiative to transform co corporate culture. Wow. Very inside the whole organization. Wow. That is very, yeah. [00:04:54] Jen Odess: Really interesting set of roles. And the whole reason I came to ServiceNow is by the time I was concluding that journey in that ecosystem on the services side, I felt like. I didn’t fully understand what it meant to be on the software product side. And I often felt like I approached friction or moments of frustration and heartache with resentment for the software company. [00:05:20] Jen Odess: Sure. Or maybe just a lack of empathy for what they must be going through as well. It always felt like I was on the kind of [00:05:26] Vince Menzione: negative you were on the other side of the table. Totally. [00:05:27] Jen Odess: Yeah. And, or maybe like the redheaded stepchild kind of a concept as a partner. And so I sought out to. Learn more, which is probably a big piece of my journey is just constant curiosity. [00:05:38] Jen Odess: Nice. And I thought I think the thing I’m missing is seeing what it means firsthand to be on the software product side. And that was what led me to a career at ServiceNow. Five years strong. Yeah. So [00:05:50] Vince Menzione: talk about partner experience for those who don’t know what that means. [00:05:53] Jen Odess: Yeah. Today my role is partner excellence, but it used to be partner experience. [00:05:58] Jen Odess: Okay. And so the don’t. Yeah, that’s normal to say both things. And they actually mean two very different things. [00:06:04] Vince Menzione: Yeah, I would say so. [00:06:05] Jen Odess: And we deliberately changed the title about a year ago. So today, partner Excellence is about really ensuring that we build a vibrant AI led ecosystem. And that’s from the whole life cycle of the partner, from the day they choose to be a partner and onboard, and hopefully to the day they’re just. [00:06:23] Jen Odess: Thriving and growing like crazy, and then across the whole life cycle of the customer pre to post sale. So it’s, we are almost like the underpinning and the infras infrastructure. Someone once said it’s like we’re the insurance policy of all global partnerships and channels. That’s how we operate across global partnerships and channels and service Now. [00:06:42] Vince Menzione: And you have a very intimate relationship with those partners. We’re gonna dive in on that as well. Yes. But let’s talk about this time like no other. I talk about tectonic shifts at all of our events. People that listen to our podcasts know we talk about the acceleration of transformation, and it’s happening so fast. [00:06:58] Vince Menzione: It was happening fast even during COVID. But then. I’ll call this date or time period, the November 20, 22 time period when Chat GPT launched. Oh yeah. And that really changed the world in many respects, right? Yeah. Microsoft had already leaned in with chat, GPT, Google, we talked to Google about this. [00:07:17] Vince Menzione: Even having them in the room was like, they were caught flatfooted in a way, and they had a lot of the technology and they didn’t lean in. But it feels like ServiceNow was one of the first, certainly on the ISV side of the house and refer to the term ISV. Loosely, because hyperscalers are ISVs as well. [00:07:34] Vince Menzione: They were early to lean in and have leaned it in such a way from a business application perspective that I believe we haven’t seen embracing and infusing AI into your platform. I was hoping we could dive in a little bit on ServiceNow from a. Kinda legacy, what the organization was and is today. [00:07:56] Vince Menzione: And then also this infusion of AI into the platform. If you don’t mind, [00:07:59] Jen Odess: I love this topic. Okay. And I feel like it’s such a privilege to talk about ServiceNow on this topic because we really are a leader in the category. I’ll almost rewind back to over 20 years ago when the company was founded. [00:08:11] Jen Odess: Today, fast forward, we are so much more than an IT ticketing company. We are, [00:08:16] Vince Menzione: but that was the legacy. That’s how I knew service now 20 years ago. [00:08:19] Jen Odess: And what a beautiful legacy. Yeah. But we have expanded immensely beyond that. And that’s the beautiful story to tell customers. That’s so fun. [00:08:28] Jen Odess: But what what I love is that. So 20 years ago, that was where we started. And today, do you know that over a billion workflows are put to work every single day for our customers? A billion [00:08:38] Vince Menzione: workflows, over a billion workflows. That’s crazy. [00:08:40] Jen Odess: And 87% of all implementations for ServiceNow were done by partnerships. [00:08:46] Jen Odess: And channels. That’s fantastic. So you think about those billion plus workflows daily, all because of our partner ecosystem. This is my small plug. I’m just very proud 80, proud 86%. [00:08:56] Vince Menzione: Did you hear that? Part’s 86%. [00:08:57] Jen Odess: Amazing. And so that’s like what we’re, that’s what we’re a leader in the category. We are a leader in workflows categorically. [00:09:05] Jen Odess: But then over a decade ago, we started investing in ai. We started building it right into our platform, and this becomes the next kind of notch on our belt, which is we are a unified platform. Nothing is bolted on, nothing is just apid in. Yeah, it is a unified platform. So all of that AI that for the past decade we’ve been building in into our platform. [00:09:28] Jen Odess: Just in our AI platform, which is now what we are calling it, the AI platform. [00:09:34] Vince Menzione: And I would say that unless you were a startup starting up from scratch today and building on an LLM, we were building in a way I don’t think any other organization’s gonna actually state that [00:09:45] Jen Odess: what’s actually why we call ourselves AI native. [00:09:47] Jen Odess: Yeah, beca for that exact reason. And that’s who we’re competing with a lot these days, is the truly AI native startups where they didn’t have, the 20 years. Previously that we had, but that’s what makes us so unique in the situation, is that unified AI platform, a single data model that can connect to anything. [00:10:07] Jen Odess: And then the workflow leader. And when you put all those things together, AI plus data, plus workflows and that’s where the magic happens. Yeah. Across the enterprise. It’s pretty cool. [00:10:17] Vince Menzione: That is very cool. And you start thinking about, and we start talking about agent as a, as an example. Let’s talk about this for a second. [00:10:23] Vince Menzione: You, when what is this bolt-on, we could use the terms co-pilot, we could use Ag Agent ai, but they are generally bolted onto an existing application today. So take us through the 10 years and how it has become a portion or a significant portion. Of ServiceNow. [00:10:41] Jen Odess: When say the question a little bit more. [00:10:43] Jen Odess: Like when you say it’s, yeah, when which examples have bolted on? [00:10:47] Vince Menzione: So exa, we, what we see today is the hyperscalers coming out with their own solution sets, right? They’re taking and they’re offering it up to their ecosystem to infuse it into their product and portfolio. To me, those that look like bolted on in many respects, unless it’s an AI need as a native organization, a startup organization. [00:11:07] Vince Menzione: They’re mostly taking and re-engineering or bolting onto their existing solutions. [00:11:12] Jen Odess: I follow. Yeah. Thank you for giving me a little more context. So I call this our any problem. It’s like one of the best problems to have we can connect into. Anything, any cloud, any ai, any platform, any system, any data, any workflow, and that’s where any hyperscaler, and that’s the part that makes it so incredible. [00:11:32] Jen Odess: So your word is bolt on, and I use the word any the, any problem. Yeah. We’ve got this beautiful kind of stack visual that just, it’s like it just one on top of the other. Any. Any, and no one else can really say that. I gotta see [00:11:45] Vince Menzione: that visual. Yeah. Yeah. So talk about this a little bit more. So you’re uniquely positioned. [00:11:52] Vince Menzione: Let’s talk about how you position, you talked about being AI native. What does that imply and what does that mean in terms of the evolution of the platform? From ticketing to workflows to the business applications? What are the type of applications Yeah. Markets, industries that you’re starting to see. [00:12:08] Jen Odess: So I’ll actually answer this with, taking on a small, maybe marketing or positioning journey. So there was a time when our tagline would be The World Works with ServiceNow. There was a time when it was, we put AI to work for people and today and it, I think it was around Knowledge 2025, this came out. [00:12:28] Jen Odess: It was the AI platform for business transformation. And I love to say to people, it sounds like a handful of. Cliche words that just got stacked together. The AI platform for business transformation. Yeah. We all know these words, so many companies use ’em, but it is such deliberate language and I love to explain why. [00:12:46] Jen Odess: So the first is the AI platform is calling out that we are an AI native platform. We are a unified platform. It’s a chance to say all that goodness I already shared with you. Yeah. And the business transformation is actually telling the story of no longer being a solution. Point or no longer being an individual product that does X. [00:13:06] Jen Odess: It’s about saying. The ServiceNow platform can go north to south and east to west across your entire enterprise. Okay. Up and down the entire tech stack. Any. And then east to west, it can cut across the enterprise, the C-suite, the buying centers, all into one unified AI platform. With one data model. [00:13:26] Jen Odess: I love it. And so I love that AI platform for business transformation actually has so much purpose. [00:13:32] Vince Menzione: It does. So you’re going across the stack, so you’re going all the way from the bottom layer, all the way up to the top from the ue. Ui. And then you’re going across the organization, right? You’re going across the C-suite, you’re going across all the business functions of an organization. [00:13:46] Vince Menzione: Correct. And so the workflows are going across each of those business functions? [00:13:49] Jen Odess: Correct. And then our AI control tower is sitting at the very top, governing over all of it. [00:13:53] Vince Menzione: I love the control tower. [00:13:54] Jen Odess: I know the governance, security risk protocol, managing all the agents interoperability. Yeah. [00:14:01] Vince Menzione: And then data at the very bottom right. [00:14:03] Vince Menzione: Controlling all those elements and the governance of the data and the right, the cleanliness of the data and so on. Yeah. That’s incredible. I we could probably talk about business applications. I know one, in fact, I’ve had a person sit in this, your chair from we’ll call it a large GSIA very significant GSI one of the top five. [00:14:21] Vince Menzione: And they took ServiceNow and they applied it to their business partnering function. And they used, and we, you probably don’t know about this one, but I know that that’s a, an example of taking it and applying it all across all the workflows, across all the geographies of the organization and taking a lot of the process that was all done manually. [00:14:40] Vince Menzione: That was stove pipe business processes that were all stove piped and removing the stove pipe and making for a fluid organizational flow. [00:14:47] Jen Odess: And I’ll bet you the end user didn’t even realize ServiceNow was the backend. That’s some of the greatest examples actually. [00:14:53] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Yeah. So Jen, we work with all the hyperscalers. [00:14:56] Vince Menzione: We have a very strong relationship with Microsoft. Goes back many years, my back to my days at Microsoft and we’ve had Google in the room. We have AWS now as well. We bring them all together because we believe that partners work with, need to work with all three. And I know that you have had an interesting transformation at ServiceNow around the hyperscalers. [00:15:16] Vince Menzione: I was hoping you could dive in a little deeper with us. [00:15:19] Jen Odess: Yeah. We are so proud of our relationships with the hyperscalers, so the same three, so it’s Microsoft Azure, Google Cloud, and AWS. And really it’s it’s a strategic 360 partnership and our goal is really to drive marketplace transactions. [00:15:34] Jen Odess: So ServiceNow selling in all of their marketplaces and then. Burn down of our customers cloud commits. I love it. It’s really a beautiful story for our customers and for the hyperscalers and for ServiceNow. And so we’ve, it’s brand, it’s a brand new announcement from late in the year 2025. Love it. And we’re really excited about it. [00:15:51] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And then we, and we get all of the marketplace leaders in the room. So we’ve worked with all of those people. And one of the key points about this is there is over a half a trillion dollars in durable cloud budgets with customers that [00:16:08] Vince Menzione: Already committed to, I know, so that tam available, a half a trillion dollars is available to customers to burn down and utilize your solutions and professional services with partners as well in terms of driving a complete solution. [00:16:21] Jen Odess: That’s exactly the motion we’re pushing is to go and leverage those cloud commits to get on ServiceNow and in some cases, maybe even take out other products to go with ServiceNow and actually end up funding the transition to ServiceNow. Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:37] Vince Menzione: So you serve thousands of customers today, thousands of customers. [00:16:42] Vince Menzione: I can’t even. Fathom the exact number, but you have this partner ecosystem that you described, and their reach is even more incredible, like hundreds of thousands. Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about how you think about that, and then how do you drive the partner ecosystem in the right way to drive this partner excellence that you described. [00:17:02] Jen Odess: Yeah, that’s a great question. So yeah, thousands of ServiceNow customers and we’re barely scratching the surface in comparison to our partners customers. So we have over 2,500 partners Wow. In our ecosystem. And today they cut across what I would call five routes to market. That partners can go to market with ServiceNow. [00:17:21] Jen Odess: Okay. The first is consulting and implementation. This will be your classic kind of consulting shop or GSI approach. The second is resell, just like it sounds. Yep. [00:17:30] Vince Menzione: Transactional. [00:17:31] Jen Odess: Yep. The third is managed service provider. [00:17:33] Vince Menzione: Okay. [00:17:34] Jen Odess: The fourth is what we call build, which is. The ISV, strategic Tech partner realm, and then the fifth is hyperscaler. [00:17:43] Jen Odess: Those are the five routes to market. So partners can choose to be in one or all or two. It doesn’t matter. It’s whichever one fits the kind of business they want to go drive. Nice. Where they’re. Expertise lies. And then we’ve got partners that show up globally, partners that show up multinational and partners that show up regionally and then partners that show up locally, in country and that’s it. [00:18:06] Jen Odess: And we really want a diverse set of partners capable of delivering where any of our customers are. So it’s important that we have that dynamic ecosystem where we really push them. We’re actually trying hard to balance this. Yeah, you would’ve heard it from many of your other partners. This direct versus indirect. [00:18:24] Jen Odess: Yes. Motion. For anyone listening that doesn’t know the difference, right? Direct is ServiceNow is selling direct to a customer, there might be a partner involved influencing that will implement. Yeah, likely but ServiceNow is really driving the sale versus indirect where the whole thing routes through the partner. [00:18:39] Jen Odess: Right? Which is your classic reseller or managed service provider and often a an ISV. And you know that balance is never gonna be perfect ’cause we’re not gonna commit to go all direct or all indirect. We’re gonna continue to sit in this space where we’re trying to find a healthy balance. [00:18:56] Jen Odess: So I find a lot of our time trying to figure out how do you set all those parties up for success? Yeah. The parties are the ServiceNow field sellers? And then you’ve also got the partnerships and channels, so the ecosystem, and then you’ve got the people in global partnerships and channels. So my broader organization, and we’re all trying to figure out how to work harmoniously together and it’s a lot of, it is my job to get us there. [00:19:19] Jen Odess: And so we use lots of things like incentives and benefits and we will put in place gated entry, really strategic gated entry. What does [00:19:29] Vince Menzione: gated entry mean? [00:19:30] Jen Odess: Yeah. What I mean is if you want to have a chance at being matched with a customer Yeah. For a very specific deal. Or it’s really one of three to get matched. [00:19:41] Jen Odess: ‘Cause you can never match one-to-one. It has to be three or more. Okay. We have good compliance rules in place. Yeah. But in order to even. Like surface to the top of the list to be matched. There’s a gated entry, which is, you’ve gotta have validated practices. Okay. Which is how, it’s these various ways, as you described, you quantify and qualify the partner’s capabilities. [00:20:00] Vince Menzione: Yeah. So you have to meet these qualifications. Yes. And you could be one of three to enter and be. Potentially matched, considered significant or Yes. Match for this deal? [00:20:08] Jen Odess: Yes, that’s exactly right. So we use, various things like that. And then we try to carve what I would call dance card space reseller in commercial, try to sit here and like carve by geo, by region, by country dance card space as well to help the partners really know exactly where they can unleash versus, hey, this is the process and the rules of engagement. To go and sell alongside the direct org sales organization [00:20:33] Vince Menzione: and you’re gonna have multiple partners in the same opportunities. [00:20:37] Vince Menzione: Absolutely not. Not necessarily competing with each other. There’s three competing each with each other, but also you’re gonna have other partners that provide different capabilities as well. You might have that have some that are just transac. Those are gonna be those channel or reseller partners. [00:20:52] Vince Menzione: You might have an MSP that’s actually delivering, or at least providing some type of managed service on top of the stack. Like supporting the customer. Yeah. And then you might have an SI GSI an integration partner that’s also doing the con the consulting work around getting the solution to meet with the customer’s requirements. [00:21:12] Vince Menzione: Would you say [00:21:13] Jen Odess: so? That’s exactly right. Yeah. And actually in. AI era, we’re seeing more of it than ever. And even on the smaller deals, maybe not the GSIs on the smaller deals, but we’re seeing multiple partners come in to serve up their specific expertise, which is actually a best practice. That’s [00:21:33] Vince Menzione: terrific. [00:21:33] Jen Odess: We don’t want. If you’ve got an area that’s a blind spot and you’re a partner, but that’s something your customer is buying from you, there’s no harm in saying let’s bring in an expert in that category to deliver that piece of the business. That’s right. And we’ll maybe shadow and watch alongside. [00:21:46] Jen Odess: So we’re seeing more and more of it. And I actually think like the world of. Partnerships and ecosystems. If I go back to like my previous ecosystem as well, it’s become so much more communal than ever before. Yes. This idea that we can share and be more open and maybe even commiserate over the things, gosh, I can’t believe we have the same frustrations or we have the same. [00:22:09] Jen Odess: Wow, that’s amazing. And you’re in this country. And I’m in this country. And so we’re seeing more and more coming together on deals which I really respect a lot. ’cause So one of the new facts we’ve just learned actually, Vince, is that. Of all the ai buying that customers are doing out there, they actually still want over 70% of it to be done by partners. [00:22:32] Vince Menzione: Yes. [00:22:33] Jen Odess: So even though it looks like it could be maybe set up easy configured, easy plug and play it. It to get, it’s not real ROI. You still need a partner with expertise in that industry or that domain, or in that location or in that language to come and bring the value to life. And we will certainly accelerate, help accelerate time to value with things that ServiceNow will do for our partners. [00:22:56] Jen Odess: But if over 70% is gonna go to partners and AI is so new, wouldn’t you want more than one partner Sometimes on a absolutely on a deal, at least while we’re all learning. I think we can keep ebbing and flowing [00:23:07] Vince Menzione: on this. We you, I dunno if Jay McBain, ’cause we’ve had him in the room here and he is a, he’s an analyst that does a lot of work around this topic. [00:23:14] Vince Menzione: And we talk about the seven seats at the table because there are, again, you need more you, first of all, you need to have your trusted, you need to have the organizations that you work with. And you also, in the world of ai, with all of the tectonic shifts, all the constant changing that’s going on right now, I need to make sure that I have the right. [00:23:31] Vince Menzione: People by my side that I can trust, they can help me deliver what I need to deliver. ’cause it might have changed from six months ago. And the technology is changing. Everything is changing so rapidly right now. So again, having all those right people I want to pick up on something ’cause we talked a little bit about MSPs and they’ve become a favorite topic of ours. [00:23:52] Vince Menzione: I have become acutely aware of the Ms P community recently. I kinda looked at them as well. There’s little small partners, but you’ve suggested this as well. They have regional expert, they have expertise in a specific area. And can be trusted, and maybe you’re integrating multiple solution sets for a customer. [00:24:11] Vince Menzione: But we’ve seen this MSP community become very vibrant lately, and I feel like they woke up to technology and to AI in such a big way. Can you comment on that? [00:24:20] Jen Odess: So we feel and see the same thing I’ve always valued what managed service providers bring to the table. It’s like that. [00:24:26] Jen Odess: Classic are you a transformation shop or are you a ta? The tail end or the run business shop? And so many partners are like we’re both, and I wanna be like, but are you? But now I feel like we finally are seeing the run business is so fruitful. So AI is innovating. All the time. [00:24:46] Jen Odess: We, we are innovating as a AI platform all the time. What used to be six month, every six months family releases of our software. Yeah. It became quarterly and now we’re practically seeing releases of new innovation every six to eight weeks. So why wouldn’t you want a managed service provider? Paying close attention to your whole instance on ServiceNow and taking into account all the latest innovation and building it into your existing instance, and then looking out for what new things you should be bringing in. [00:25:20] Jen Odess: So that’s the beauty of the, it’s almost partnerships, observing, and then suggesting how to keep. Doing better and more and better versus always jumping straight back to complete redesign and transformation. Yeah, and that’s one of the things I like about the MSPs in this space. [00:25:36] Vince Menzione: So let’s broaden out from this part of the conversation ’cause you’re giving specific guidance to the MSPs, but let’s think about this whole partner community. [00:25:43] Vince Menzione: And you’ve seen this transformation coming over to ServiceNow and even within ServiceNow these last five years. How do these organizations need to think differently? And how do they need to structure their services in this newent world? [00:25:58] Jen Odess: Great question. There’s really four things that I think they have to be thoughtful of. [00:26:02] Jen Odess: The first is maybe the most obvious they have to adopt AI as their own ways of doing work methodology. Delivery, whatever it is, because only through the, it’s not about taking out people in jobs, it’s about doing the job faster, right? It’s about getting the customer to value faster so that adoption of AI will make or break some partners. [00:26:24] Jen Odess: And our goal is that every partner comes on the other side of this AI journey, thriving and surviving. So we’re really pushing. This agenda. And maybe later I can talk to you a little bit more about this autonomous implementation concept. Please. ’cause I that will [00:26:37] Vince Menzione: resonate. So you’re saying they need to, we used to use the term eat their own dog food. [00:26:41] Vince Menzione: Now it’s drink your own champagne. Yeah. But they need to adopt it as well internally. [00:26:46] Jen Odess: Yeah. And I think whether they’re using, I hope they’re using ServiceNow as like a client, zero. To do some of that adoption. But there’s lots of other tools that are great AI tools that will make your job and your day-to-day life and the execution of that job easier. [00:26:59] Jen Odess: So we want them adopting all of that. The second is, we really need to see partners. Innovating on the ServiceNow platform. Yeah. And whether that’s building agents AI agents that go into the ServiceNow store, whether it’s building a really fantastic solution that we wanna joint jointly go to market with, or maybe it’s one of those embedded solutions you were commenting where the end user doesn’t even know that the backend, like a tax and audit solution that is actually just. [00:27:29] Jen Odess: The backend is all ServiceNow. Yeah. But that partner is going to market and selling it to all their customers. Exactly. So I think this co-innovation is gonna be a place that we will really win in market. The third is if a partner wants to stand out right now, they have to differentiate on paper too. [00:27:47] Jen Odess: It’s gotta like what does that mean? So if there’s 2,500 partners. And it’s not like we don’t walk around and just say, you should talk to this partner. Yeah. Or here’s my secret list. You should, we don’t do that. That’s not good business and it’s not compliant. So we have algorithms that take all the quantitative and qualitative data on our partners and they know all the data points ’cause it’s part of the partner program Nice. [00:28:10] Jen Odess: That they adhere to and then ranks them on status. And all those data points are what I’m referring to as on paper. You’ve gotta be differentiated. So whether or not you wanna be great at one thing or great across the whole thing, think about how all of those quantitative and qualitative data points are making you stand out, because that’s where those matches that I was referring to. [00:28:35] Jen Odess: Yes. That’s where that’s gonna come to life. And it’s skills, it’s capabilities. It’s deployments. So Proofpoint and deployments, customer success stories, csat, all the things. So [00:28:47] Vince Menzione: those are all the qualifi qualifiers for and more, but those are the types [00:28:49] Jen Odess: of qualifications. Yeah. [00:28:51] Vince Menzione: And then do your, does your sales organization do a match against that based on a customer’s requirements that they’re working with and who they work with and co-sell with? [00:29:00] Jen Odess: And I feel like you just lobbed me the greatest question. I didn’t even know you were gonna ask it, but I’m so glad you did. So today. Today there is something called a partner finder, which is which is nice, but it’s a little bit old school in a world of ai. Yeah. So you go to servicenow.com, you click partner from the top navigation, and then it says find a partner and you can literally type in the products you’re buying the country, you’re, that you’re headquartered out of. [00:29:26] Jen Odess: Whatever thing you’re looking for. And it will start to filter based on all those data points, the right partners, and you can actually click right there to be connected to a partner. So lead generation. Okay, interesting. But where we’re going is a agentic matching right in our CRM for the field. Oh. So those data points are gonna matter even more, and that’s where the gated. [00:29:48] Jen Odess: I say gated entry, which is probably too extreme, right? It’s really gated. If you wanna surface toward the top, there’s gated parameters to try to surface to the top, but those data points will feed the algorithm and it will genetically match right in our CRM for the field. Who are the best suited partners? [00:30:09] Jen Odess: Would you like to talk to them? [00:30:10] Vince Menzione: Okay. And so is it. Partner facing? Is it sales team facing [00:30:14] Jen Odess: Right now? It’s sales. It’ll, when it goes live, it will be sales team facing. Okay. But we have greater ambition for what partners can do with it. Yeah. Not just in the indirect motion, but also what partners may be able to do with it to interface with our field. [00:30:30] Jen Odess: The. [00:30:31] Vince Menzione: The, yeah the collaboration [00:30:33] Jen Odess: opportunity. Which is always a friction point that we’re working on [00:30:36] Vince Menzione: always because it’s very manual. It’s people intensive. Yeah. Partner development managers sitting on both sides of the equation and the interface between the sales organization and a partner organization is not always the. The easiest. So right. Automated, quite a bit of that. [00:30:49] Jen Odess: My boss is obsessed with the easy button, which I know is a phrase many of us in the US know from I think it’s an Office Depot, all these ways in which we can have easy button moments for the partner ecosystem is what we’re trying to focus on. [00:31:01] Jen Odess: I love the easy button. [00:31:02] Vince Menzione: Yeah. And I love your boss too. Yeah, he’s fabulous. Fabulous. So Michael and I go back like many years ago. You must have, [00:31:08] Jen Odess: yeah. You must have had paths crossing on numerous occasions. [00:31:12] Vince Menzione: Yeah we we worked together micro I’m going to hijack the session for a second here. [00:31:16] Vince Menzione: But when I first came to Microsoft, he was leading a, the se, a segment of the business, and he invited me to come to his event and interviewed me on stage at his event. [00:31:26] Jen Odess: No way. [00:31:26] Vince Menzione: And we got to know each other and yeah. So he was terrific. He was what a great find for, oh, he’s for service now. [00:31:32] Vince Menzione: He’s really [00:31:32] Jen Odess: has been a fantastic addition [00:31:34] Vince Menzione: to the global partnerships and channels team. And Michael, we have to have you on the podcast. Yes. Or cut down here in the studio at some point too with Jen and I. That’d be great. So this is terrific. We are getting it’s an incredible time. [00:31:44] Vince Menzione: It’s going so fast this time, 2022 was, seems like it was five, it feels like it was almost 10 years ago now. It wasn’t that we just started talking about it and you were implementing AI 10 years ago, but it wasn’t getting the attention that it’s getting today. And it really wasn’t until that moment that it really started to kick off in a way that everybody, yeah. It became pervasive overnight I would say. But now we’re starting 2026, like we’re at. This precipice of time and it’s continuing. I don’t even know what 2030 is gonna look like, right? So I’m a partner. [00:32:16] Vince Menzione: What are the one, two, or three things that I need to do now to win over and work with ServiceNow? [00:32:23] Jen Odess: One, two or three things? I’ll tell you the first thing. So today ServiceNow will end up hitting 500 million in annual contract value in our Now Assist, which is our AI products by the end of 2025, which is the fastest growing product in all of ServiceNow history. [00:32:37] Jen Odess: That’s one product that’s so there’s lots of SKUs. Yeah, but it is. It’s our AI product. Yeah. And it is, but yeah, because of all the various ways. [00:32:45] Vince Menzione: So half a billion dollars, [00:32:46] Jen Odess: half a billion by the end of 2025. And I think, someone’s gonna have to keep me honest here, but if memory serves me right, the first skews didn’t even launch until 2024. [00:32:54] Jen Odess: So we’re talking about wow, in a year it’s fast. Over 1,700 customers are live with our now assist products. Again, in a matter of, let’s call it over, a little over a year, 1,700 partners. So I think the first thing a partner needs to do is they’ve gotta get on this AI bandwagon, and they’ve gotta be selling and positioning AI use cases to their customers, because that’s the only way they’re gonna get. [00:33:20] Jen Odess: Experience and an opportunity to see what it feels like to deliver. So we have to do that. And I think you could sell a big use case like that big, we talked north, south, east, west, you could do that whole thing. Brilliant. But you could also start small. Go pick a single use case. Like a really simple example of something you wanna, some work you wanna drive productivity on. [00:33:41] Jen Odess: Yeah. And make sure you’ve got multiple stakeholders that love it and then go drive proving that use case. That’s what we’re telling a lot of partners. That’s the first thing. The second is they have got to build skills on AI and they have to keep up with it. And so we’re trying to really think about our broader learning and development team at ServiceNow is just next level. [00:34:00] Jen Odess: And they’re really re-imagining how to have more real time bite size. Training and enablement that will help individuals keep up with that pace of innovation. So individuals have got to get skilled. Yes. On AI today, of that a hundred thousand or so individuals in the ecosystem right now, about 35% of those individuals hold one or more AI credential. [00:34:25] Jen Odess: Again, that’s in a little over a year, which is the fastest growing skill development we’ve ever had, but it should be a hundred percent. Yeah. All of our goals should be that every account is being sold ai. ’cause that’s where the customer’s gonna get to value a ServiceNow is if they have the AI capabilities. [00:34:40] Jen Odess: And [00:34:41] Vince Menzione: how are you providing enablement and training? Is it all online? It’s, we have [00:34:44] Jen Odess: all sorts of ways of doing it. So that we have ServiceNow University, which is just a really robust, learning platform. Elba is our professor in residence. Very cool. Which is very cool. And they’re all content. [00:34:57] Jen Odess: Is free to partners. The training is free to partners that is on demand. Beyond that, partners can still get, instructor led training, whether that’s in person or virtual. And then my team offers enablement. That’s a little bit more, it’s like not formal training, it’s more like hands-on labs and experiences. [00:35:17] Jen Odess: We bring in lots of groups that sit around me that help and we very cool hands on with partners face-to-face. And do you do an annual event where you bring all these partners together? No, because we do we have three major milestones a year for partners. So the first is at sales kickoff, which is coming up the third week in January. [00:35:33] Jen Odess: And alongside sales kickoff is partner kickoff. Okay. And so we do a whole day of enabling them. So that’s your [00:35:39] Vince Menzione: partner kickoff? [00:35:40] Jen Odess: That’s partner kickoff. But of the, of all the partners in the ecosystem, it’s not like they can all make it. So we still also record and then live stream some of the content there. [00:35:49] Jen Odess: Then at Knowledge, there’s a whole partner track at Knowledge and same concept. Yeah, it’s like it’s all about customers and we wanna, build as much pipeline and wow as many customers as possible, but we also need to help our partners come along the journey. Then the third and final moment is in September, always, and it’s called our Global Partner Ecosystem Summit. [00:36:08] Jen Odess: We should have you, I’d love to join this next year. I love that. And it’s really, that’s the one time if sales kickoff is all about the sales motion in the field and knowledge is all about the customers and getting customers value. Global Partner Ecosystem Summit is only about the partners, what they need, why they need it, and what we’re doing to make their lives easier. [00:36:28] Jen Odess: I love it. Yeah. I’ll be there September. I love it. Dates yet set yet? I have to, it’s getting locked. I’ll get it to you. [00:36:34] Vince Menzione: Okay. All right. I’ll, we’ll be there. Okay. So you’ve been incredible. I just love having you. We could spend hours, honestly, and I want to have you back here. I’d love to, I have you back for a more meaningful conversation with the hyperscalers. [00:36:45] Vince Menzione: Talk to some of the partners that join us at Ultimate Partner events. We’ll find a way to do that, but I have this one question. It’s a favorite question of mine, and I love to ask all my guests this. Okay. You’re hosting a dinner party. And you could host a dinner party anywhere in the world. We could talk about great locations and where your favorite places are, and you can invite any three guests from the present or the past to this amazing dinner party. [00:37:11] Vince Menzione: We had one guest who wanted to do them in the future, like three people that hadn’t reached a future date. Whom would you invite Jen and why? [00:37:21] Jen Odess: Oh, first of all, you’re hitting home for me because I love to host dinner parties. I actually used to have a catering company. This is like one of those weird facts that, we didn’t talk about my pre services and ecosystem days, but I also had a catering company, so I love cooking and hosting dinner parties. [00:37:38] Jen Odess: So this is a great question. I feel like it’s a loaded question and I have to say my spouse. I love my husband dearly, but I have. To invite Lee to my dinner party. Okay. He’s in [00:37:47] Vince Menzione: Lee’s guest number one. Lee’s [00:37:49] Jen Odess: guest, number one. And the reason why is, first of all, I love him dearly, but he’s super interesting and he has such thought provoking topics to, to discuss and ways of viewing the world. [00:38:00] Jen Odess: He’s actually in security tech, so it’s like a tangential space, but not the same. [00:38:05] Vince Menzione: Yeah. But an important space right now, especially. Yeah. And [00:38:07] Jen Odess: he, yeah. And he’s, he’s just a delight to be around. So he’d be number one. Number two would be Frank Lloyd Wright. [00:38:15] Vince Menzione: Frank. Lloyd Wright. [00:38:17] Jen Odess: Yeah. I am an architecture and design junkie. [00:38:21] Jen Odess: Maybe I don’t do any of it myself, though. I dabble with friends that do it, and I try to apply it to my home life when I can. And Frank Lloyd Wright sort of embodies some of my favorite. Components of any kind of environment that you are experiencing, whether it’s a home or it’s an office building or it’s an outdoor space. [00:38:39] Jen Odess: I love the idea of minimalism and simplicity. I love the idea of monochromatic colors. I love the idea of spaces that can be used for multipurpose. And then I love the idea of the outside being in and the inside being out. I love it. So I would like love to pick his brain on some of his, how he came up with some of his ideas. [00:38:59] Jen Odess: Fascinating for some of his greatest. Yeah. Designs. Okay. That’s number two. Number three, I think it would be Pharrell Williams. Really? Yeah, I, Pharrell Williams. Yeah. I love fashion music and all things creativity. He’s got that, Annie’s philanthropic. He’s just yeah. The whole package of a good person. [00:39:26] Jen Odess: That’s super interesting and I very cool. I would love to pick his brain on what it was like to be behind the scenes on some of the fashion lines he’s collaborated with on some of his music collabs he’s had, and then just some of the work he’s doing around philanthropy. I would. I could just spend all night probably listening to him. [00:39:43] Jen Odess: This would be a [00:39:44] Vince Menzione: really cool conversation night. [00:39:45] Jen Odess: Don’t you wanna come to my dinner? Was gonna say, I’m sorry I didn’t invite you to identify. No [00:39:49] Vince Menzione: I was, can I bring dessert? [00:39:50] Jen Odess: Yeah. I come [00:39:50] Vince Menzione: for dessert. I, but it can’t, [00:39:51] Jen Odess: it has to be like a chocolate dessert. It’s gotta have [00:39:54] Vince Menzione: I love chocolate dessert. [00:39:55] Vince Menzione: Okay, great. So it would not be a problem for me, Jen. This is terrific. You have been absolutely amazing. So great to have you come here. Yeah. Such a busy time of year to have you make the trip here to Boca. We will have you back in the studio. I promise that I’ll have you back on stage. Stage. [00:40:10] Jen Odess: This is beautiful. [00:40:10] Jen Odess: Look at it. Yeah. This is [00:40:11] Vince Menzione: beautiful. And we transformed this into, to a room, basically a conference room. And then we also have our ultimate partner events. I would love to come, we would love to have you join us. Like I said, ServiceNow is such an impactful time. Your leadership in this segment market, and I wouldn’t say segment across all of AI in terms of all the use cases of AI is just so meaningful, especially for within the enterprise. [00:40:33] Vince Menzione: Yeah. Right now. So just really a jogger nut right now within the industry. So great to have you and have ServiceNow join us. So Jen, thank you so much for joining us. [00:40:42] Jen Odess: Thanks Vince. Appreciate the time. It’s a pleasure to be here. [00:40:44] Vince Menzione: Thank you very much. Thanks for tuning into this episode of Ultimate Eye to Partnering. [00:40:50] Vince Menzione: We’re bringing these episodes to you to help you level up your strategy. If you haven’t yet, now’s the time to take action and think about joining our community. We created a unique place, UPX or Ultimate partner experience. It’s more than a community. It’s your competitive edge with insider insights, real-time education, and direct access to people who are driving the ecosystem forward. [00:41:16] Vince Menzione: UPX helps you get results. And we’re just getting started as we’re taking this studio. And we’ll be hosting live stream and digital events here, including our January live stream, the Boca Winter Retreat, and more to come. So visit our website, the ultimate partner.com to learn more and join us. Now’s the time to take your partnerships to the next level.

Matt Yanchyshyn, AWS Marketplace and Partner Services VP, reveals how AI agents are transforming enterprises worldwide while Atlassian and Netskope leaders share strategies for scaling up Agentic AI marketplace deals.Topics Include:Matt Yanchyshyn of AWS opens with massive shift to multi-agent production systemsEnterprise software seeing huge AI adoption: 33% will include AI by year endAutomated agents now handle Matt's daily workflow, prioritizing emails and messages autonomouslyReal business transformation across financial reporting, demand forecasting, and automated incident managementAWS Marketplace team productivity up 31%, deploying software 27% faster with agentsNew agent mode for Marketplace uses autonomous data collection improving customer experiencesSuccess requires proper data governance with fine-grained access controls for safe operationsQ Developer and Qiro CLI integrate seamlessly into developer workflows without disruptionAWS maintains 400+ MCP servers, shared spec farms enabling teams to collaborate effectivelyEmbedded experts and principal engineers spread agent knowledge and measure productivity closelyAndy Horwitz notes security leads Marketplace growth, primarily through private offer expansionNetskope's new DSPM product addresses AI data security, driving strong customer adoption momentumEnterprise customers now ask if vendors are AWS badged, deals 41-58% largerAndy advises ISVs: prepare sales teams thoroughly, focus co-sell, secure executive buy-inBill Hustad emphasizes distinct marketplace strategy, seller training, and ruthless operational tracking for successParticipants:Bill Hustad - Global Head of Channel and GTM Ecosystems, AtlassianAndy Horwitz – SVP, Global Partner Ecosystems, NetskopeMatt Yanchyshyn – VP, AWS Marketplace & Partner Services, Amazon Web ServicesSee how Amazon Web Services gives you the freedom to migrate, innovate, and scale your software company at https://aws.amazon.com/isv/

In this Cloud Wars Live podcast, Bob Evans sits down with Hayete Gallot, President, Google Cloud Customer Experience, to explore how Google Cloud is helping enterprises move from AI experimentation to true business transformation. Gallot describes how her organization unifies engineering, consulting, partners, and learning to accelerate time-to-value and scale agentic AI across every function. Together, they dive into Gemini Enterprise, customer successes like Virgin Voyages, and why human-centered change is the real key to AI's future.The AI Turning PointThe Big Themes:Customer Experience Built for the AI Era: Google Cloud created a new Customer Experience organization, led by Hayete Gallot, to match the speed and complexity of AI-driven transformation. Instead of treating AI as a pure technology play, the team unifies industry and solutions experts, customer engineers, consulting, partners, and learning into one group that supports the full innovation lifecycle. That means they can help customers go from idea to minimum viable product to production in a consistent, repeatable way.Ecosystem, Partners, and Curated AI Solutions: Google Cloud's ecosystem strategy is central to scaling AI transformation. Gallot describes deep investment in system integrators — not just training them on technology, but sharing methodologies and scenario-based approaches so they can guide customers toward the right AI choices. At the same time, Google Cloud works with top ISVs to embed AI into their solutions and create compatible protocols for multi-agent experiences.Structuring Tech Teams for Agentic Transformation: AI's rise is forcing technology organizations to evolve. Gallot notes that CTOs and CIOs are asking how to restructure their teams for an “agentic” world. The demand is no longer just for deep technical skills, but also people who understand user experience, behavior, and business workflows. Technology teams are increasingly expected to co-design scenarios with business leaders, not just implement requirements. Looking ahead to 2026, Gallot sees the priority as scaling agentic transformation across divisions.The Big Quote: "Customers are much more mature on AI … When you meet with them, they're [asking] what's in it for me? What am I going to get? When am I going to get it? How do I scale this? They want production, and they want outcome." Visit Cloud Wars for more.

Payments shouldn't break just because a card changes. We sat down with leaders from NMI, G+D and Mastercard to unpack how network tokenization has moved far beyond basic security to become the backbone of higher approvals, fewer chargebacks, and smoother recurring billing. If you care about conversion, fraud, and customer lifetime value, this conversation goes straight to the signal.Tiffany Johnson, CPO at NMI, Mark Van Horn, Digital Solution Lead, North America at G+D and Ryan Francis, Vice President, Digital Product at Mastercard start the episode by clarifying what network tokens are and how they differ from traditional vault tokens, then dig into the metrics that matter: consistent 3–6 percentage point authorization uplift, real-world portfolio wins that stretch even higher, and measurable savings from reduced retries and smarter routing. You'll hear how merchant-bound and device-bound tokens give issuers reliable context, why lifecycle management keeps subscriptions uninterrupted, and how those improvements cascade into lower operational costs and stronger retention.From there, we look ahead. Tokens are becoming the default for card-not-present payments and will extend into open banking and account-to-account flows. With AI on the rise and agentic commerce coming into view, tokens provide portable trust - binding identity, device, and permissions so agents can transact safely on our behalf. The guests share how G+D and NMI make token adoption turnkey for ISVs and platforms, and how Mastercard is scaling token rails to power seamless, intelligent commerce.If you're an ISV, platform, or merchant seeking higher approval rates and lower fraud without adding friction, this is your blueprint. 

In today's podcast, John Siefert sits down with Magnus Perri, CEO, elevaite365 Test Automation, and Michael Catterall, Product Lead, elevaite365 Test Automation, to unpack how AI is redefining testing in Dynamics 365 projects. They discuss why manual testing overwhelms business users, how elevaite365 Test Automation's platform automates and adapts with AI, and how a community-driven script library accelerates implementation. It's test automation built for real-world complexity and speed.AI Testing, Real ResultsThe Big Themes:Testing Stress: Perri points out a systemic flaw in ERP and Dynamics 365 implementations: the burden of testing often lands on business users whose primary roles have nothing to do with quality assurance. This leads to rushed efforts, incomplete coverage, and high error rates. The fundamental issue isn't lack of diligence, it's misalignment. Elevaite365 Test Automation directly addresses this by reducing or eliminating the need for manual testing.Insight and Resilience Layers: Catterall describes how elevaite365 Test Automation's platform doesn't just mimic human testers, it enhances them. Once a user records a business process, the system converts it into a reusable, repeatable automated test. But what sets elevaite365 Test Automation apart is what happens next: It adds AI-powered layers that detect anomalies like incorrect field values, unexpected pop-ups, and subtle error messages that human testers often miss. This isn't basic scripting, it's intelligent validation that keeps evolving.AI Testing Brings Measurable ROI: While much of the conversation covered process pain and automation theory, the real value becomes evident in customer results. Elevaite365 Test Automation isn't just a nice-to-have, it delivers real ROI. Customers using the platform have reduced their testing cycles from weeks to hours, lowered defect rates in production, and significantly cut the manpower required for UAT (User Acceptance Testing). Because the tool is embedded in real Dynamics 365 workflows, it provides test coverage for processes that actually matter like purchasing, invoicing, inventory, and more.The Big Quote: "Testing is always falling onto the business users, not IT department ... so you go into testing and you're stressed, you have a lot to do. You're thinking about talking to the next supplier, and while you're doing that, you work through the testing as fast as you can, and you might miss stuff." Visit Cloud Wars for more.

As Kubernetes® continues to reign as the worldwide container orchestration system of choice, many organizations and independent software vendors (ISVs) are realizing that its capabilities could be an essential key to ongoing and future business success.Blog: https://www.nutanix.com/blog/how-a-complete-and-open-kubernetes-platform-can-future-proof-your-business by Dan CiruliHost: Phil Sellers, XenTegraCo-Host: Jirah Cox, NutanixCo-Host: Andy Greene, XenTegraCo-Host: Chris Calhoun, XenTegra

On this episode of How We Got There, I am joined again by Jason Hoult, the Founder and former CEO of Anvil App Works who was acquired by Tractor Zoom in 12/2023, for part 2! If you missed it, give our first episode together from July 2023 a listen. It was an excellent episode where we talked about a wide range of topics, but my highlight was his approach to company building & nailing a niche. You don't have to start a business that is a massive multi-trillion TAM. Jason got great advice to stick with what he knows well, Salesforce & John Deere dealerships. You can later expand from there, like they did to expand other types of dealerships.On this episode, we look back into how he met their acquirer, initially at an event that both companies were sponsoring. Talk about an ROI from sponsoring a trade show!Jason shares openly about the courting process but also talks about how the partner relationship started with a formal partnership & co-marketing agreement. This enabled both teams to lean in and prove the mutual customer value before taking the next steps. We talked about how he knew it made sense to sell from a timing pov and lessons learned to help you avoid a couple mistakes (like some paperwork with customer agreements). Jason is a true believer of EOS to help align a company on strategy & values.He is such an asset to the ecosystem with his transparency & authenticity. I hope you enjoy this session even half as much as I did. This episode is brought to you by Tequity Advisors . Tequity Advisors is a global sell-side M&A advisory firm with core expertise in SaaS and ISVs, Salesforce, ServiceNow, SAP, Microsoft, all things Data and AI, and the hyper scaler MSP cloud ecosystems with a focus on the Salesforce ecosystem and beyond! 

On this episode of How We Got There, I am joined by Rey Perera who is the Co-Founder and CEO of Gridmate. He shares his story as moving from an SDR to an enterprise AE at another Salesforce ISV before jumping into co-founding Gridmate along Hicham El Mansouri. Rey talks about how they build a business with diversity as if you look at their team, they are located all across the world and come from a number of cultural backgrounds. It helps deliver outstanding customer support that is clear to see in their AppEx reviews. I met Rey years ago but you will see him and his team at many of the Salesforce events around the world. We discuss how they decide on which events to sponsor and the ROI around them from a sales and marketing pov. It's not all about direct ROI when considering which Dreamin, World Tour/Agentforce, and Dreamforce events to sponsor. Their investment in the ecosystem goes deep, working with their team to take at least 3 certifications (that are fully paid and incentivized!) per year to help them in their work and their careers. This episode is brought to you by Tequity Advisors . Tequity Advisors is a global sell-side M&A advisory firm with core expertise in SaaS and ISVs, Salesforce, ServiceNow, SAP, Microsoft, all things Data and AI, and the hyper scaler MSP cloud ecosystems with a focus on the Salesforce ecosystem and beyond! 

How can service providers rapidly connect their voice infrastructure to Microsoft Teams without the traditional headaches? In this engaging interview, Scott Jenkins breaks down Dstny's Call2Teams platform – a powerful middleware solution transforming how UC vendors and carriers deliver Teams voice capabilities at scale.Key highlights from the conversation:Solving UC Complexity: Learn how Call2Teams acts as an agnostic bridge across varied on-prem, cloud, and hybrid UC stacks to enable Teams as a voice endpoint.Effortless Onboarding with Zero-Touch: Discover how AutoSync and Dstny's zero-touch provisioning platform reduce onboarding from days to minutes with seamless API integrations.Empowering the Channel: See how Dstny supports full white-label delivery, enabling MSPs and ISVs to embed their brand while leveraging Dstny's backend power.Global Growth & Future Trends: From LATAM to Eastern Europe, hear Scott's take on emerging markets, Microsoft's evolving pricing models, and how AI and Direct Routing will drive the next wave of innovation.If you're working to modernize your UC offering or expand your reach with Teams voice, this video is packed with actionable insight and forward-thinking strategies. To learn more, visit: https://www.dstny.com/call2teams-home

On this episode of How We Got There, I am joined by Alex MacKay, Executive Chairman & Co-Founder of Tequity Advisors. He shares his start in CRM when running Siebel Canada and found his way into sell-side advisory for M&A at Tequity, with deep experience in the Salesforce ecosystem with 28 companies and counting.*If you are at Dreamforce next week, make sure to reach out to Alex or Mahnoor Naeem if you will be there too*They take a long-term view of the relationship, oftentimes getting to know a company over a period of 2-3 years to help them get ready to sell. They help demystify the journey, even serving as an informal board member in many cases.We talk a bit about lessons learned and Alex shares his advice at various stages of an ISV's journey from first customers, to a couple million in ARR, to scale.  He talks about the importance for entrepreneurs to roll out a management operating system, like EOS, to help set the business up for growth. Alex shares his advice for early-stage ISVs around speaking with customers in their language, not about your product!This episode is brought to you by Tequity Advisors . Tequity Advisors is a global sell-side M&A advisory firm with core expertise in SaaS and ISVs, Salesforce, ServiceNow, SAP, Microsoft, all things Data and AI, and the hyper scaler MSP cloud ecosystems with a focus on the Salesforce ecosystem and beyond! 

Ruston Miles, Founder and Chief Strategy and Development Officer at Bluefin and I start with the origin story: telecom roots, fiber‑rich Tulsa, and the overlooked reality of call centers that needed real‑time authorizations long before shopping carts ruled the web. Ruston explains why Bluefin moved into security early - serving higher ed, nonprofits, and faith‑based media where brand trust is everything and how that path led to P2PE. Then comes the turning point: a decision to decouple encryption from acquiring, offer P2PE as a service, and even power competitors. That platform approach now supports around 150 devices across 17 manufacturers and underpins airlines, transport systems, fuel networks, and more, often quietly and often by requirement.From there, we look ahead. Network tokens are rising, wallets are changing, and AI is pushing commerce from clicks to intent. Ruston separates hype from reality, showing how today's “agentic” automation schedules deliveries and completes checkouts, while tomorrow's agents will present payment credentials securely without platforms ever seeing raw card data. That shift demands virtual P2PE, inter‑agent boundary mediation, and standards that let authentication and encryption travel with the transaction. We also get practical: how Bluefin's P2PE‑as‑Proxy reduces integration pain, why security must keep pace with innovation, and what skills newcomers need as software continues to digest payments.If you care about payments security, PCI, P2PE, tokenization, gateways, ISVs, and the future of agentic commerce, you'll find plenty to take back to your roadmap. 

In the final episode of Powering Payments Together: How Payroc Helps ISVs Scale Smarter, we turn the spotlight on CenterEdge Software and their journey to building a payments program that drives real business value. Leslie Legel, Director of Payments at CenterEdge, joins the conversation to share how Payroc has become a trusted partner in helping them overcome challenges, strengthen their platform, and deliver a seamless experience for their clients.Leslie explains why payments are mission-critical for family entertainment centers, where more than 90 percent of transactions are digital and downtime isn't an option. From July 4th waterparks to cashless operations, reliability isn't just a nice-to-have—it's the foundation of customer satisfaction. She reflects on a tough lesson learned when a gateway integration didn't meet expectations, and how those setbacks ultimately led CenterEdge to develop a more reliable and scalable payments strategy.The episode also explores how CenterEdge built and branded “CenterEdge Payments,” giving them control over the customer journey and creating a more transparent, feature-rich solution for their clients. Leslie shares how Payroc stood out as a partner, not just for their technology and APIs, but for their willingness to understand CenterEdge's business, answer tough questions, and provide the tools and flexibility needed to scale.Finally, Leslie offers advice to ISVs navigating the high-stakes world of payments: do your homework, know your limitations, and find a partner who is as invested in your success as you are. Looking ahead, she discusses how CenterEdge and Payroc will continue to grow together, exploring new solutions and opportunities to strengthen their offering in the family entertainment space.

I am joined by Melanie Kruger, one of the best people leaders that I ever had the chance to work with. She has deep understanding of helping to scale Salesforce ISVs of all sizes. She actually found her way into the Salesforce ecosystem via networking between her husband and J Manning, bringing her to the Head of People at Conga.I got to work with Melanie twice at Conga and TaskRay and was so impressed with how she helped set culture and nurture culture so the companies could grow. Melanie shares that when she joined Conga, lots of people were generalists - Conga had a number of Business Analysts that did everything customer facing - Sales, CS, and Support. This can be a really good model of ISVs early on, but eventually specialization is required. Something similar happened at TaskRay and one of their BAs was Jon Barlow who is now a top tier enterprise AE in the ecosystem.We talk about culture and how it shifts over time, sharing her experience with Red Canary. We explore hiring pitfalls for early-stage ISVs and the importance of job descriptions. We go deep on this topic because it is so, so important to align expectations and help secure top talent as well as touching on some creative perk ideas for employees, like “two weeks to infinity”.It was a lovely conversation that blended business lessons and life lessons. This episode is brought to you by Tequity Advisors . Tequity Advisors is a global sell-side M&A advisory firm with core expertise in SaaS and ISVs, Salesforce, ServiceNow, SAP, Microsoft, all things Data and AI, and the hyper scaler MSP cloud ecosystems with a focus on the Salesforce ecosystem and beyond! 

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In Episode 143 of “The Trusted Advisor,” RSPA CEO Jim Roddy sits down with Ansley Hoke, Senior Vice President of the Integrated Solutions Group at ScanSource, to discuss “stickier” solutions that VARs and ISVs can offer to merchants. Among the topics discussed are connected devices, IT aggregation, AI, and mobile device management. Hoke also shares insights into her leadership journey including how leaders need to understand “the power of pause.” “The Trusted Advisor,” powered by the Retail Solutions Providers Association (RSPA), is an award-winning content series designed specifically for retail IT VARs and software providers. Our goal is to educate you on the topics of leadership, management, hiring, sales, and other small business best practices. For more insights, visit the RSPA blog at www.GoRSPA.org. The RSPA is North America's largest community of VARs, software providers, vendors, and distributors in the retail, restaurant, grocery, and cannabis verticals. The mission of the RSPA is to accelerate the success of its members in the retail technology ecosystem by providing knowledge and connections. The organization offers member-to-member warm introductions, education, legal advice, industry advocacy, and other services to assist members with becoming and remaining successful. RSPA is most well-known for its signature events, RetailNOW and Inspire, which provide face-to-face learning and networking opportunities. Learn more by visiting www.GoRSPA.org.

In this revealing conversation with Conn Byrne, Executive Director of Integrated Payments at Payroc, we uncover the secret sauce behind their remarkably successful ISV program.Having fallen into payments during a six-week temporary position that turned into a 14-year career, Byrne brings a wealth of experience from his journey with WorldNet (acquired by Payroc in 2022) to his current role leading integrated partnerships. His perspective reveals why payment integrations fail when they focus solely on revenue shares rather than comprehensive support."My team is pretty wide at this stage," Byrne explains, describing how Payroc surrounds partners with experienced business development resources, highly skilled sales engineers, integration engineers, and their newest differentiator - a dedicated go-to-market team. This collaborative, high-touch approach means partners never wonder where to turn when challenges arise or opportunities emerge.The conversation explores how Payroc has built a truly omnichannel solution supporting over 50 payment terminals alongside comprehensive card-not-present options. Byrne illustrates this advantage through compelling examples like car wash operations, where a single integration handles everything from license plate recognition with tokenized payments to unattended terminals, mobile POS, and subscription billing.Looking forward, Payroc continues expanding its capabilities through their cloud integration method (allowing implementation in under a week), enhanced API suite, and expanded hardware support - particularly for Android devices and unattended solutions. The company's flexible partnership models create multiple entry points for ISVs at different growth stages.The most telling insight? When Payroc recently gathered their largest partners for an advisory council, the recurring themes weren't about technology or pricing - they were about trust, flexibility, and the journey they'd shared together. Some partners who began with small referrals 7-10 years ago have grown alongside Payroc into sophisticated payment operations.

OpenInfer addresses the enterprise infrastructure gap that causes 70% of edge AI deployments to fail. Founded by system architects who previously built high-throughput runtime systems at Meta (enabling VR applications on Qualcomm chips via Oculus Link) and Roblox (scaling real-time operations across millions of gaming devices), OpenInfer applies proven architectural patterns to enterprise edge AI deployment. The company targets three specific customer pain points: cost reduction for AI-always-on applications, data sovereignty requirements in regulated environments, and reliability for systems that must function regardless of connectivity. In this episode of Category Visionaries, CEO and Founder Behnam Bastani reveals how external market catalysts like DeepSeek's efficiency breakthrough transformed investor perception and validated their compute optimization thesis. Topics Discussed: System architecture pattern replication from Meta's Oculus Link to Roblox to OpenInfer The compute efficiency gap: why "throwing hardware" at AI problems creates market inefficiencies How DeepSeek's January 2025 breakthrough shifted investor sentiment from skepticism to oversubscription Customer targeting methodology: focusing on business unit leaders facing career consequences Government market discovery: air-gapped environments and data sovereignty requirements Technical demonstration strategies for overcoming the 70% edge deployment failure rate Privacy-first AI positioning unlocking previously inaccessible use cases GTM Lessons For B2B Founders: Target decision-makers with career-level consequences: Rather than pursuing prospects who might "take a risk," Behnam focuses on "those that lose their jobs if they're not solving the problem" - specifically business unit leaders whose profit margins or sales metrics directly impact their career trajectory. This creates urgency that comfortable cloud users lack and accelerates deal cycles by aligning solution adoption with personal survival incentives. Leverage external market catalysts for thesis validation: OpenInfer initially faced investor pushback ("Nvidia's got everything working well. Why you think you can do anything better?") until DeepSeek's efficiency breakthrough provided third-party validation. "January hits and then there's DeepSeek... People called us, hey, you're DeepSeek on edge." Founders should identify potential external events that could validate their contrarian thesis and be prepared to capitalize when these catalysts occur. Lead with technical proof points over explanations: In markets with high failure rates, demonstrations eliminate skepticism faster than education. "We definitely have metrics, demos, and we go with those. We demonstrate what's possible... we remove this skepticalism in terms of ease of deployments, power of edge in one shot." This approach recognizes that technical buyers need confidence before curiosity. Pursue unexpected traction sources aggressively: Despite targeting enterprise ISVs, government demand emerged due to air-gapped environment requirements. "Government is actually becoming huge traction primarily because data ownership was a major topic to them." Rather than forcing initial market hypotheses, founders should redirect resources toward segments showing organic product-market fit signals, even when they require different sales processes. Build credibility through architectural pattern repetition: Investors backed OpenInfer because "we are the people that have built this twice, scaled it to millions." Repeating proven technical patterns across different contexts creates sustainable competitive advantages that new entrants cannot replicate without similar experience depth.   //   Sponsors: Front Lines — We help B2B tech companies launch, manage, and grow podcasts that drive demand, awareness, and thought leadership. www.FrontLines.io The Global Talent Co. — We help tech startups find, vet, hire, pay, and retain amazing marketing talent that costs 50-70% less than the US & Europe.  www.GlobalTalent.co   //   Don't Miss: New Podcast Series — How I Hire Senior GTM leaders share the tactical hiring frameworks they use to build winning revenue teams. Hosted by Andy Mowat, who scaled 4 unicorns from $10M to $100M+ ARR and launched Whispered to help executives find their next role. Subscribe here: https://open.spotify.com/show/53yCHlPfLSMFimtv0riPyM 

Integrated payments are reshaping the industry, but success looks very different depending on whether you're an ISV or an ISO. This week, James Shepherd sits down with Ashley Willson, a consultant who works with both software companies and ISOs, to share her unique perspective on the challenges and opportunities in integrated payments. With experience on both sides of the equation, Ashley offers practical insights into where the market is headed and how to navigate it. Then, Patti Murphy joins James for Today in Payments to cover the latest industry trends, including new statistics on surcharging programs and what they mean for the future.

In the first episode of our three-part series with Payroc, Powering Payments Together: How Payroc Helps ISVs Scale Smarter, I sit down with Payroc President Adam Oberman to explore the shifting landscape of integrated payments. Once seen as a simple feature, payments have now become the financial backbone of successful software companies.Adam explains why the relationship between ISVs and their payment partners has never been more strategic. The most successful software providers now generate 20–40% of their revenue through payments, making it a critical driver of both growth and valuation. As he puts it, “ISVs don't outgrow payments - they outgrow their payment partners.”We discuss how market expectations have evolved dramatically. ISVs are demanding global payment capabilities from day one - multi-currency processing, cross-border compliance, and frictionless user experiences are now table stakes. At the same time, the integration process itself has shifted toward low-code solutions that enable faster deployment without sacrificing functionality.What stands out most in Adam's perspective is the human element of payments. Clean APIs may get an integration live, but it's strategic guidance, problem-solving, and white-glove support that build long-term partnerships. “People do business with people,” Adam emphasizes, highlighting why technical capability must always be paired with trust and service.Looking ahead to 2026, Adam predicts payments will no longer be viewed as a utility but as a core competitive advantage. Companies that fail to prioritize their payment strategy risk falling behind more agile competitors not just in features, but in valuation and market position.Whether you're an established ISV or just beginning to explore embedded payments, this episode offers essential insights into selecting a partner who can scale with you, adapt to change, and deliver value far beyond transaction processing.

In Episode 142 of “The Trusted Advisor,” RSPA CEO Jim Roddy sits down with John Giles, President of ISV Round 2 POS, to discuss the retail IT VAR of the future. Giles begins with a tour of his VAR company, Butler Business Systems in Butler, PA, and then provides his thoughts on designing a “VAR for our kids' generation,” why he continues to bet on the channel, expected business model changes for VARs and ISVs, and actions resellers should take so they are a VAR of the Future. “The Trusted Advisor,” powered by the Retail Solutions Providers Association (RSPA), is an award-winning content series designed specifically for retail IT VARs and software providers. Our goal is to educate you on the topics of leadership, management, hiring, sales, and other small business best practices. For more insights, visit the RSPA blog at www.GoRSPA.org. The RSPA is North America's largest community of VARs, software providers, vendors, and distributors in the retail, restaurant, grocery, and cannabis verticals. The mission of the RSPA is to accelerate the success of its members in the retail technology ecosystem by providing knowledge and connections. The organization offers member-to-member warm introductions, education, legal advice, industry advocacy, and other services to assist members with becoming and remaining successful. RSPA is most well-known for its signature events, RetailNOW and Inspire, which provide face-to-face learning and networking opportunities. Learn more by visiting www.GoRSPA.org. 

I am joined by Ben McCarthy, Founder of Salesforce Ben, Lab.club and advisor to a number of great companies in the ecosystem like AscendX, Tequity Advisors, and PipeLaunch. We talk about his journey from university to stumbling upon Salesforce and then after being called SalesforceBoy grew into Salesforce Ben. We talk about how to approach thought leadership, holding nothing back from the reader. Give back and give value and best practices without selling first. Obviously your offering will help more, but for basic use cases consider helping those salesforce users solve their problem without using your solution. There will be time to position your premium solution once trust is established.People in the ecosystem will know of Salesforce Ben and Ben himself, but some ISVs might not know that you can actually engage with SFB to help engage the Salesforce community with things like sponsored content, thought leadership, dreamforce activations and more. Their team has data and expertise to help guide ISVs on what works and what doesn't to drive conversions. We talk about the state of the ecosystem around things like events and how it's changed over the last decade. Experimenting with things like video and shorts vs. things like white papers. Speaking of exploration, Ben also gives his point of view on how and why they launched NowBen, a similar platform to Salesforce Ben but focused on the ServiceNow ecosystem. I think everyone can learn from his point of view on this topic.Make sure you follow Gearset and Elements.Cloud with Kevin Boyle and Ian Gotts, respectively. Here is the link to Salesforce Ben's parties and events guide for Dreamforce 2025 next month. https://www.salesforceben.com/official-dreamforce-parties-and-events-guide-2025/ This episode is brought to you by Tequity Advisors . Tequity Advisors is a global sell-side M&A advisory firm with core expertise in SaaS and ISVs, Salesforce, ServiceNow, SAP, Microsoft, all things Data and AI, and the hyper scaler MSP cloud ecosystems with a focus on the Salesforce ecosystem and beyond! 

Consumer financing has become a critical offering for merchants—and an opportunity for ISOs, agents, and ISVs to differentiate. In this week's episode, James Shepherd interviews Bob Lovinger from FlexBuy to explore their white label consumer financing solution and recent acquisition of Koalafi's coaching finance division. Learn how FlexBuy helps merchants provide access to capital, increase conversions, and strengthen customer loyalty. Then, in Today in Payments, James and Patti Murphy discuss the results of a recent survey showing merchants' strong demand for access to capital from their payment providers—sometimes enough to switch processors. They also cover other timely stories shaping the payments landscape.

A panel discussion with AI industry leaders revealing how enterprises are scaling AI today, with predictions on coming breakthroughs for AI and the impact on Fortune 500 companies and beyond.Topics Include:Three technical leaders discuss production challenges: security, interoperability, and scaling agentic systemsPanelists represent Enkrypt (security), Anyscale (infrastructure), and CrewAI (agent orchestration platforms)Industry moving from flashy demos to dependable agents with real business outcomesBreakthrough examples include 70-page IRS form processing and multimodal workflow automationMultimodal data integration becoming crucial - incorporating video, audio, screenshots into decisionsLess than 10% of future applications expected to be text-onlyCompanies shifting from experimenting with individual models to deploying agent networksNeed for governance frameworks as enterprises scale to hundreds of agentsGrowing software stack complexity requires specialized infrastructure between applications and GPUsSecurity teams need centralized visibility across fragmented agent deployments across enterprisesExisting industry regulations apply to AI services - no special AI laws neededInteroperability standards debate: MCP gaining adoption while A2A seems premature solutionMCP shows higher API reliability than OpenAI tool calling for implementationsMultimodal systems more vulnerable to attacks but value proposition too high ignoreFortune 500 company automated price operations approval process using 630 brands data87% of enterprise customers deploy agents in private VPCs or on-premises infrastructureSpecialized AI systems needed to oversee other agents at machine speed scalesCost optimization through model specialization rather than always using most powerful modelsFuture learning may happen through context/prompting rather than traditional weight fine-tuningPredictions include AI meeting moderators and agents working autonomously for hoursParticipants:Robert Nishihara - Co-founder, AnyscaleJoão Moura - CEO, CrewAISahil Agarwal - Co-Founder & CEO, Enkrypt AIJillian D'Arcy - Sr. ISV Sales Leader, Amazon Web ServicesFurther Links:Anyscale – Website | LinkedIn | AWS MarketplaceCrewAI - Website | LinkedIn | AWS MarketplaceEnkrypt AI - Website | LinkedIn | AWS MarketplaceSee how Amazon Web Services gives you the freedom to migrate, innovate, and scale your software company at https://aws.amazon.com/isv/

AWS executives reveal how generative AI is fundamentally reshaping ISV business models, from pricing strategies to go-to-market approaches, and provide actionable insights for software companies navigating this transformation.Topics Include:Alayna Broaderson and Andy Perkins introduce AWS Infrastructure Partnerships and ISV SalesGenerative AI profoundly changing how ISVs build, deliver and market software productsTwo ISV categories emerging: established SaaS companies versus pure gen AI startupsLegacy SaaS firms struggle with infrastructure modernization and potential revenue cannibalizationPure gen AI companies face scaling challenges, reliability issues and cost optimizationRevenue models shifting from subscription-based to consumption-based pricing per token/prompt/taskFuture-proofing architecture critical as technology evolves rapidly like F-35 fighter jetsData becoming key differentiator, especially domain-specific datasets in healthcare and legalBalancing cost, accuracy, latency and customer experience creates complex optimization challengesMultiple specialized models replacing single solutions, with agentic AI accelerating this trendHuman capital challenges include retraining engineering teams and finding expensive AI talentSecurity, compliance and explainability now mandatory - no more black box solutionsEnterprise customers struggle with data organization and quantifying clear gen AI ROIISV pricing models evolving with tiered structures and targeted vertical use casesTraditional SaaS playbooks failing in generative AI landscape due to ROI uncertaintyPOC-based go-to-market with free trials and case study selling proving most effectivePricing strategies include AI gates, credit systems and separate SKUs for servicesCustomer trust requires proactive security messaging and auditable, transparent AI solutionsModular architecture enables evolution as new technologies emerge in fast-changing marketAWS positioning as ultimate gen AI toolkit partner with ISV collaboration opportunitiesParticipants:Alayna Broaderson - Sr Manager, Infrastructure Technology Partnership, Amazon Web ServicesAndy Perkins - General Manager, US ISV, Amazon Web ServicesSee how Amazon Web Services gives you the freedom to migrate, innovate, and scale your software company at https://aws.amazon.com/isv/

It is no secret that ISOs are looking for integrated payments partnerships, while ISVs want access to payments industry distribution, but so far, these partnerships have not lived up to the hype. In this week's episode, James Shepherd shares the 6 reasons why ISOs and ISVs have not worked well together so far and what both sides can do about it. Then, James is joined by Patti Murphy for a Today in Payments segment covering the latest news and trends shaping the payments industry.

In this episode of the Fintech One-on-One podcast, we talk with Paulette Rowe, CEO of Stax, a payments technology company that's making waves in the embedded payments space by taking a fundamentally different approach than many competitors. Rather than simply reselling services from payment processing giants, Stax has built and acquired the technology to own their entire stack, from gateway to clearing and settlement. This strategic decision allows them to move faster, provide better data, and offer more flexibility to their clients, particularly in the vertical SaaS and ISV market where they are seeing rapid growth.Paulette, who brings a unique perspective from her extensive payments experience across both the UK and US markets, discusses how Stax differentiates itself in the competitive embedded payments landscape, their innovative Stax Connect Plus offering that helps ISVs dramatically improve payment attachment rates, and how AI is already transforming their customer support operations. The conversation also explores the future of payments innovation, including the potential for agentic AI in e-commerce and Stax's international expansion plans.In this podcast you will learn:Paulette's career arc and the journey to the CEO job at Stax.How the US payments landscape differs from the UK and Europe.The comprehensive payments solutions provided by Stax.How they work with ISVs (independent software providers).The two acquisitions they have made in the past two years.Why they developed Stax Connect Plus.How Stax differentiates itself in the ISV embedded payments market.How they compete with the Stripes and Squares of the world.What markets Stax operates in today.Paulette's thoughts on the new payments rails being developed.How they have been using AI internally and then, Benji for customer support.How they are preparing for Agentic AI for e-commerce.The biggest opportunities in the future for Stax.Connect with Fintech One-on-One: Tweet me @PeterRenton Connect with me on LinkedIn Find previous Fintech One-on-One episodes

Spencer Herrick, Principal AI Product Manager of Asana and Oliver Myers of AWS demonstrate how their integration allows Asana's AI workflows to access enterprise data from Amazon Q Business, enabling seamless cross-application automation and insights.Topics Include:Oliver Myers leads Amazon Q Business go-to-market, Spencer Herrick manages Asana AI products.Session focuses on end user productivity challenges with generative AI technology implementations.End users face technology overload with doubled workplace application usage over five years.Data silos prevent getting maximum value from generative AI across fragmented enterprise systems.Workers spend 53% of time on "work about work" instead of strategic contributions.Ideal experience needs single pane of glass with cross-application insights and actions.Amazon Q Business launched as managed service with 40+ enterprise data connectors.Connectors maintain end-user permissions from source systems for enterprise security compliance.QIndex feature enables ISVs to access Q Business data via API calls.End users get answers enriched with multiple data sources without switching applications.Asana's work graph connects all tasks, projects, and portfolios to company goals.Phase 1 AI focused on narrow solutions like smart status updates.Phase 2 aimed for AI teammate capabilities requiring extensive contextual knowledge.AI Studio launched as no-code workflow automation builder within Asana platform.Q integration allows AI Studio to access cross-application context beyond Asana boundaries.SmartChat enhanced with Q can answer "what should I work on today?" holistically.Users returning from PTO can quickly understand goal risks across data sources.AI Studio workflows automate feature request processing across Asana, Drive, Slack, email.Partnership eliminates silos while maintaining enterprise security and permission controls.Integration creates connected ecosystem enabling true cross-application AI automation and insights.Participants:Spencer Herrick - Principal AI Product Manager, AsanaOliver Myers - Worldwide Head of Business Development, Amazon Web ServicesFurther Links:Asana.comAsana on AWS MarketplaceSee how Amazon Web Services gives you the freedom to migrate, innovate, and scale your software company at https://aws.amazon.com/isv/

Andie Hill's career defies traditional paths. From searching newspaper classifieds to becoming Executive Vice President of Agent Sales at Payroc, her journey illustrates how authenticity and relationship-building create leadership success in the payments industry."Being relevant and authentic" defines modern leadership for Hill. Throughout our conversation, she dismantles the myth that leaders must present a perfect image, emphasizing instead that showing up as your genuine self - even on difficult days - creates stronger connections and more effective outcomes. This philosophy has guided her through positions at industry giants including First Data, Vantiv, and Visa before her current role at Payroc.Technology emerges as both challenge and opportunity throughout our discussion. As Hill notes, "We just feel like we started to really get a good handle on integration and ISVs, and now here comes AI." She predicts even more seamless payment experiences in the near future, such as phone-to-phone transfers happening with a simple tap rather than through apps. This perspective emphasizes how payment professionals must constantly anticipate and adapt to technological shifts.Perhaps most valuable for emerging professionals is Hill's insight on mentorship. Rather than formal programs with rigid schedules, she credits casual conversations at industry events and networking opportunities for her most transformative professional relationships. "Some of the best mentorship I've ever had were the people that I've met sitting at a registration desk," she shares, encouraging young professionals to proactively seek these connections rather than waiting for formal introductions.Have you considered a career in payments? As Hill advises, "Don't let the noise scare you." Despite its technical complexity, the industry remains accessible and rewarding for those willing to embrace learning. Take the first step - reach out to someone in the field today and start your own payments journey.

I am joined by Blakely Graham, who is a board advisor to Left Main REI, host of the Not All Business Podcast, Founder and former CEO of TaskRay⁠. This one was a long time coming. On a personal note, my time at TaskRay was some of my most formative. I found a balance while there between my previous experience of excellence with true work life balance and a focus on values that stays with me. I am so grateful that Blakely and team took a chance in hiring me for a role that I was almost kind of qualified for and her friendship since then.I'll do my best to summarize this episode, but it's more than worth a listen because I don't have enough characters to summarize it all. Blakely's Salesforce journey starts in 2001 and spans a ton of roles and experiences. We dig deep into her experience founding TaskRay 15 years ago in 2010 as Bracket Labs as one of the early ISVs on the AppExchange where VCs told her that her business was not investable and it was "a lifestyle business" at best because the Salesforce ecosystem was too small. She grew it in spite of that and by the time they sold the business, they were getting endless inbound interest.We talk about culture and values and why they were so important to her and the team at TaskRay. One of the core values was Connection that was the inspiration for Project Connection where the founders and I went to 5 cities and sat across the table from over 20 customers without an agenda outside of learning how our customers used the app. It drove focus for years to come that had nearly endless valuable outcomes like clarity of product roadmap, dramatically reduced churn, drove brand/marketing strategy, and much more. She shares how founder conflict snuck up on her with Eric Wu as well as how they (eventually) resolved it. As we switched gears to talk about gtm, Blakely shares how TaskRay evolved from the primary source of leads being the AppExchange with mostly SMB customers to more enterprise selling with content strategies, partnership motions, events, and more knobs we turned. The lesson is you are going to try stuff - some will work, some won't but you have to innovate and measure.We talk about how to select and what you can expect from an advisor. At TaskRay, we rolled an advisor program out modeled after a talk Blakely listened to from Andy Wilson, founder of Logikcull. Shoutout to Phil Stern who was my sales leader advisor at TaskRay who helped me avoid many mistakes.Show notes:Jolene Chan's LinkedIn where she was talking about a personal board of directors: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jolenec/Not All Business podcast with Heather Cooper: https://www.linkedin.com/company/not-all-business/Podcast with Andy Wilson from Logikcull where he discusses his advisor program that we modeled TaskRay's after: it starts at 14:05 and lasts 4 minutes  starts at 14:05 and lasts 4 minutes -https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/saastr-236-logikcull-ceo-andy-wilson-on-%240-to-%2410m/id1089973241?i=1000439148009This episode is brought to you by ⁠⁠⁠Invisory⁠⁠⁠. Invisory is designed to meet you where you are: in your cloud marketplace journey through a strong go-to-market strategy that helps drive prospect and co-sell opportunities with Salesforce, AWS, Microsoft, and Google. 

In today's Cloud Wars Minute, I explore how ServiceNow and Nicus Software are teaming up to deliver a financial intelligence layer that helps enterprises optimize their cloud, AI, and IT spending by unifying data across finance, IT, and business units.Highlights00:08 — ServiceNow is working with a partner, Nicus, to deliver a financial intelligence layer for enterprise tech. Interesting angle here: It's trying not just to consolidate the numbers, but to go beyond that. It involves multiple parts of the organization working in concert to really get not only the best data but also the ability to act on it.00:34 — Tom Smith had a conversation with Ron Wastal, the Chief Ecosystem and Partner Officer at Nycus. Wastal described how this works for companies. It's in the category of Technology Business Management, but goes beyond that. Nicus is trying to bring financial teams, IT teams, engineering, and lines of business together to share this intelligence and collaborate.01:22 — Again, this isn't just about saying, “Hey, here's how much is going on.” It's about answering: Where is it happening? Why is it happening? How is it contributing or not contributing to business outcomes? That way, they can optimize the substantial dollars being poured into cloud and AI spending. These optimizations can really add up.02:11 — Why ServiceNow in particular? Why did Nicus want to work with them? Ron explained that the IT data for many big companies lives in ServiceNow databases. That's where they can find out what's really going on. Tapping into those massive data stores allows them to have a huge impact.02:38 — What Nicus does is put a financial intelligence layer on top of that IT data to enable a cycle of understanding, tracking, and optimizing IT spend. It's also leveraging ServiceNow's unique workflows and cutting-edge AI capabilities to take action on these insights. That's the difference Nycus sees in what it does versus others.03:13 — Nicus has developed two specific applications—one for costing and one for planning. These apps are used across the platform to deliver a comprehensive picture of what's going on. This is another example of how ServiceNow is working with world-class partners and ISVs to deliver great business outcomes for customers.This episode is sponsored by ServiceNow. Visit Cloud Wars for more.

In this episode of the Office of the CFO Podcast, John Siefert hosts Rob Ashe, VP of North America, SignUp Software, and Blaine Grzegorek, Senior Solution Architect, Sikich, for a conversation on the benefits of partnering with ISVs, top considerations when selecting an ISV, and the impact of AI agents.Key Takeaways:  Risks of building your own solutions: One major risk that's becoming more prominent is having the expertise in-house to build custom solutions. Another hurdle is the upfront costs compared to subscription costs associated with many ISVs. Oftentimes, Ashe notes, "You have to spend a lot of capital on new tools...to make this new solution or change a process." Grzegorek suggests a third challenge which is meeting compelx needs. Oftentimes, industry expertise is also required, as you may be able to build the technology but might not be ready to translate the business needs to the ERP.Benefits of partnering with an ISV: A big reason organizations turn to ISVs is that they develop purpose-built solutions to address multiple different situations and multiple industries. "That's what I've found clients like about it, there might be a core functionality out of the box but it doesn't really handle every scenario," Grzegorek says. Working with ISVs provides expertise in various industries to consult with to address specific issues and needs.Considerations: Because ISVs work on these types of projects regularly, they are aware of more elements to take into consideration. For instance, Ashe describes how ISVs look at the landscape within Dynamics 365. It's important to consider how the solution will integrate with existing systems, how it will impact security, where data is being sourced from, and more.Selecting an ISV: When selecting an ISV, there are some qualities you should look for to ensure unexpected situations are taken care of. "The documentation they have, that speaks a lot to what they're able to contribute on an ongoing basis," Grzegorek says. Clients are looking for partnership, and working with an ISV is a partnership. You want to be confident that you can reach out to your ISV and get answers right away. "It's hard to see that before you actually start that partnership, so I go to that documentation of what the solution has, what it solves, and if that stuff is detailed...that is a huge indicator." Initial interactions with them are also a good sign of this.Multiple ISV solutions from a single vendor: It's always beneficial to have an ISV that can provide multiple solutions in different areas. One thing to look out for, Grzegorek highlights, is to make sure that the ISV has good alignment internally. Integration time is also a major focus, considering whether you have to integrate or if it's embedded in the system.AI agents and Microsoft Dynamics 365: While the solutions themselves are very powerful, AI agents can add a new level of efficiency. Ashe shares an example of how individuals are now running teams of agents to automate various functions. There are agents fulfilling individual functions within Dynamics 365 that customers are already using, so SignUp Software is like an extension of the platform and the workload. "We feel like we have a really strong value proposition to bring back to Microsoft to leverage the strength and the roadmap of the platform, but then also have immediately valuable solutions that they can take advantage of now," Ashe says.This episode is sponsored by SignUp Software. Visit Cloud Wars for more.