Conversing

“Leadership is defined by listening.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton explains the essential role listening plays in leadership and successful communication.  Leaders are often known for what they've said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they're working with at any given time. Here, Mark shares from his decades of leadership experience as a Presbyterian minister and seminary president. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes Relationships of trust “ Listening is as critical to the existence of leadership as it is to the partnership of leadership.” “ If we don't have listening, then the partnership that leadership requires simply can't exist.” What leadership is really about: the people you're leading are known, served, discovered, changed, renewed Tone-deaf leaders: leaders who are out of touch If you don't want to be out of touch or tone deaf, “enter the room listening.” “Leaders are often known for what they've said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they're working with at any given time.” Mutuality of learning and listening together—adding oxygen to the room Bringing part of yourself versus bringing your whole self to a leadership relationship “ Let's not listen to one another first critically and negatively. Let's listen to one another with hope, with earnestness, with a genuine desire to receive their perspective and letting that actually inform how we lead.” “When I ran into people who are having difficulties with their senior leader, it's almost always around the leader's failure to listen. At one level or another, they are not hearing the people that they're leading.” “A leader who doesn't listen is like a person deciding to jump off a cliff. …  The longer they don't listen, the more they are isolated by themselves and at risk.” Leadership enriched by an understanding of each other “A shared communion of decision making” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Strong leadership is born not from control, but from authentic community and the cultivation of people and teams. Nathan Hatch, former president of Wake Forest University and esteemed historian, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the nature of transformative leadership. Drawing from his decades of experience at Notre Dame and Wake Forest—and from his new book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders—Hatch explores how leaders cultivate thriving institutions through humility, vision, and empowerment. Hatch shares his personal journey from growing up in a Presbyterian home to leading major universities, while reflecting on the comomunity, character, instincts, and freedom required for lasting institutional impact. Episode Highlights "Organizations aren't self-generating—you bet on people, not on strategy." "Organizations are best served when you have a team of like-minded people, each using their own strengths." "Leadership has to flow out of who you are authentically—you can't try to be someone else." "If you have exceptional people, it takes management of a different form—it's collaboration." "Leadership is not about control but about strength: hiring strong people is harder, but it's transformative." "People read your real meanings, not your words—authenticity is the heart of leadership." Helpful Links & Resources The Gift of Transformative Leaders, by Nathan Hatch University of Notre Dame Wake Forest University Jim Collins - Good to Great About Nathan Hatch Dr. Nathan O. Hatch is President Emeritus of Wake Forest University and one of America's leading scholars of religion and higher education. Prior to his presidency at Wake Forest (2005–2021), Hatch served as provost at the University of Notre Dame. His groundbreaking scholarship in American religious history includes The Democratization of American Christianity, and his latest book is The Gift of Transformative Leaders. Hatch is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and continues to speak and write on leadership, higher education, and culture. Show Notes Raised in a Christian home; son of a Presbyterian minister and teacher Influenced early by history teacher and work experiences in Cabrini Green, Chicago Studied at Wheaton College, Washington University in St. Louis, and Johns Hopkins University Became an unlikely but successful historian at the University of Notre Dame Leadership philosophy shaped by early experiences with supportive professional teams and deep community and friendship How did the past come to change and create the world we live in? Transitioned from historian to administrator, balancing scholarship and administration Provost at Notre Dame: emphasized empowering faculty through development and resources President at Wake Forest: built strong leadership teams, expanded institutional vision Reflections on Father Theodore Hesburgh's visionary leadership at Notre Dame “Organizations aren't self-generating. … [it takes] a vision and leader.” "Leadership must be authentic; it must come out of who you are." The transformative impact of great leadership teams over hierarchical control Importance of raising institutional aspirations and empowering individuals to flourish "Hiring strong people makes the leader stronger, not weaker." Nathan Hatch's book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders Profiles 13 leaders who exemplify commitment, character, and institution-building Focus on people-centric leadership: authenticity, humility, vision Leaders described as radiating positivity, cultivating others, and advancing institutional missions Catholic and Protestant institutional differences in faith expression Creating inclusive religious life in pluralistic academic communities Investing in character education through initiatives like Wake Forest's scholarship programs Building culture: "Noticing people, investing in them, seeing their potential." “How do we help young people live their life?” Identifying and empowering exceptional talent Embracing unconventional hiring practices Building thriving, collaborative, life-giving teams Cultivating environments where people pursue a common good Navigating faculty-administration relationships with authenticity and transparency Facing organizational financial challenges without losing people-first priorities Leadership in contexts with limited resources: raising people's potential Authenticity and empathy are foundational to leadership Humility and commitment to the common good are non-negotiable Leaders must genuinely invest in the flourishing of others Institutions are transformed not by structures alone but by transformative people Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Nicholas Kristof (opinion columnist, the New York Times) reflects on his career of reporting from the front lines of injustice and human suffering, discussing hope, human resilience, and the urgency of responding to global injustice. An advocate for empathy-driven journalism that holds power accountable and communicates the stories of the most vulnerable, Kristof joins Mark Labberton in this episode to discuss his life's work of reporting from the world's most troubled regions—from Gaza to Congo, from rural Oregon to global centres of power. Known for his unsparing storytelling and deep empathy, Kristof shares the family roots and personal convictions that have shaped his lifelong pursuit of justice and hope. They also explore how despair and progress coexist, the role of faith and empathy in healing, and how local acts of courage can ripple globally. Grounded in gritty realism, but inspired by everyday heroes, Kristof invites us to resist numbness and embrace a hope that fights to make a difference. Stories from Gaza, Congo, Pakistan, and beyond Balancing heartbreak and hope in humanitarian reporting Why empathy must be cultivated and practiced The global impact of Christian activism and its complexities Episode Highlights “Side by side with the worst of humanity, you find the very best.” “We focus so much on all that is going wrong, that we leave people feeling numb and that it's hopeless … but people don't want to get engaged in things that are hopeless.” “Empathy is something that, like a muscle, can be nurtured.” “The worst kinds of evil and the greatest acts of courage are often just one decision apart.” “We are an amazing species—if we just get our act together.” “You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don't think there's an inconsistency there.” About Nicholas Kristof Nicholas Kristof is a two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist, and is an opinion columnist for the New York Times, **where he was previously bureau chief in Hong Kong, Beijing, and Tokyo. Born, raised, and still working from his rural Oregon home, Yamhill, he is a graduate of Harvard and was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford. He is the co-author, with his wife Sheryl WuDunn, of five previous books: Tightrope, A Path Appears, Half the Sky, Thunder from the East, and China Wakes. In 2024, he published a memoir, *Chasing Hope: A Reporter's Life.* Books by Nicholas Kristof Tightrope A Path Appears Half the Sky Thunder from the East China Wakes Chasing Hope: A Reporter's Life Helpful Resources International Justice Mission Dr. Denis Mukwege – Nobel Peace Prize PEPFAR: The U.S. President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief Tim Keller's Final Interview with Kristof (NYT) Show Notes A voice of conscience How a global orientation for journalism developed Kristof reflects on his humble roots in Yamhill, Oregon, as the son of two immigrants “My dad was a Armenian refugee from Eastern Europe. His family had spied on the Nazis during World War II. They got caught. Some were executed by the Nazis, others were executed by the Soviet communists, and my dad was very lucky to make it out alive and was sponsored by a family in the US in 1952.” “I think that one fundamental mistake that bleeding hearts make, whether they're bleeding hearts in journalism or in the non-profit community or in advocacy, is that we focus so much on all that is going wrong that we leave people feeling numb and feeling that it's hopeless, so there's no point in engaging. And there's pretty good evidence from social-psychology experiments that people don't want to get engaged in things that are hopeless. They want to make a difference. And so I think that we need to both acknowledge all the challenges we face but also remind people that there can be a better outcome if they put their shoulder to the wheel.” Extraordinary changes for justice and what's going right David Brooks: “A deeply flawed country that also managed to do good in the world.” ”It just breaks my heart that kids are dying unnecessarily.” On losing PEPFAR foreign aid: “I hope that this damage can be repaired and that bleeding hearts of the left and the right can work together to try to help restore some of these initiatives.” The tragedies that followed from dismantling USAID Kristof's book Chasing Hope “The fact is that I've seen some terrible things, and I think I may have a mild case of PTSD from, you know, seeing too much.” Nicholas Kristof on Gaza: “I don't see Israel and Hamas as morally equivalent, but I absolutely see an Israeli child, a Palestinian child, and an American child as moral equivalents.  And we don't treat them that way.” “What human beings share is that when terrible things happen, some people turn into psychopaths and sociopaths, and other people turn into heroes.” Cowardice and malevolent tendencies Empathy can be nurtured Children dying without anti-retroviral drugs in South Sudan Empathy Project in Canada Mass literature to inspire perspective taking Uncle Tom's Cabin Black Beauty and animal rights/well-being Kristof's run for Oregon governor Eastern Congo and UNICEF “A child is raped every thirty minutes in Eastern Congo.” Dr. Denis Mukwege, Nobel Peace Prize laureate treating women brutally injured by militia rape in Bukavu, a city in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. Small gestures of compassion as an empathy grower for local communities “One of the lessons I think of Congo is that violence can be and inhumanity can be terribly contagious.” Genocide in Rwanda in 1994 The global sex-trafficking crisis “We don't have the moral authority to tell other countries to do better unless we clean up our own act.” The American sex-trafficking crisis: systemic failures such as foster care pipelines into trafficking “There are no statistics, but I think it's plausible that a girl in foster care is more likely to emerge to be trafficked than she is to graduate from a four-year college.” American sex-trafficking practices by PornHub and X-Videos: “Their business model is monetizing kids.” “You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don't think there's an inconsistency there, and I, I think we've just blurred that too often.” Christianity's disappointing response to injustice Nicholas Kristof's engagement with the activism and theology of the Christian church William Wilberforce's anti-slavery movement in the 1780s President Bush's establishment of PEPFAR in 2003: “This incredible program to reduce the burden of AIDS that has saved 26 million lives so far. It's the most important program of any country in my adult lifetime in terms of saving lives.” “Evangelicals are very good in terms of tithing and donating money to good causes, but they've often opposed government programs  that would create opportunity and address these problems.” “Liberals are personally stingy, but much more supportive of government programs that that make a difference.” Criticizing the dismantling of global aid programs like USAID: “How can you read the Gospels and think this is good?” “I think being part of a religious community has led people to do good works together.” Christian advocacy for freedom of religion Kristof on scripture and belief: “We read the Bible and develop our religious views, and I think so often just reflects our priors rather than what the text says.” A closing example of hope: The Afghan war “We are an amazing species if we just get our act together.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In this episode, Russell Moore, editor-in-chief of Christianity Today, joins Mark Labberton to discuss the seismic political, moral, cultural, and spiritual crises facing American evangelicalism and how to respond. Reflecting on his own journey from the Southern Baptist Convention to his current role, Moore offers a candid and theologically rich diagnosis of a movement he describes as simultaneously fragmented, bored, and longing for renewal. Drawing parallels to historical awakenings and moments of global upheaval, Moore challenges listeners to consider what faithful Christian witness looks like in a time of digital saturation, political idolatry, and ecclesial disillusionment. Together, they wrestle with how evangelical institutions can resist becoming co-opted by market forces or ideologies, and instead return to the soul of the gospel—Jesus himself. Episode Highlights “We simply want Jesus as revealed in scripture.” (Russell Moore) “The good news is so clouded with distorted noise.” (Mark Labberton) “You mistakenly think that the solution has to be at the same scale as the problem.” (Wendall Berry, cited by Russell Moore) “Every person has to have an act of willful excommunication.” (Nicholas Carr, cited by Russell Moore) “Christian Nationalism is like ‘Bizarro Evangelicalism' … i f you can get external conformity, then you have righteousness.” (Russell Moore) Karl Barth on Christian disillusionment during World War I: “We  we want to preach the gospel as though nothing has happened.” … “ He's saying the church is being co-opted and used by forces alien to it. And there have to be people who are free from that to actually appeal to the genuine gospel and to remind people that God is God.” About Russell Moore Russell Moore is Editor in Chief of Christianity Today and is the author of Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America (Penguin Random House). The Wall Street Journal has called Moore “vigorous, cheerful, and fiercely articulate.” He was named in 2017 to Politico Magazine's list of top fifty influence-makers in Washington, and has been profiled by such publications as the New York Times, the Washington Post, TIME Magazine, **and the New Yorker. An ordained Baptist minister, Moore served previously as President of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission and, before that, as the chief academic officer and dean of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where he also taught theology and ethics. Moore was a Fellow at the University of Chicago's Institute of Politics and currently serves on the board of the Becket Law and as a Senior Fellow with the Trinity Forum in Washington, D.C. He also hosts the weekly podcast The Russell Moore Show and is co-host of Christianity Today's weekly news and analysis podcast, The Bulletin. Russell was President of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention from 2013 to 2021. Prior to that role, Moore served as provost and dean of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, where he also taught theology and ethics. A native Mississippian, he and his wife Maria are the parents of five sons. They live in Nashville, where he teaches the Bible regularly at their congregation, Immanuel Church. Show Notes Comparing Christianity Today and Fuller Theological Seminary Religious reconsiderations post-World War II “My grandfather was blown out of a tank by the Nazis in the Battle of the Bulge and came back. He went an unbeliever, came back really feeling his mortality and, and searching for answers. And ended up at a revival meeting where he came to know Christ.” A false choice presented to Christians: “You had this false choice being presented to Christians … you either go with an ever narrowing, ever quarrelsome sort of group of fundamentalists or you liberalize.” Billy Graham and Martin Luther King, Jr. The recent history of Evangelical Christianity A Movement in Crisis: What is the state of Evangelicalism in America? Revival preachers and entrepreneurialism: a religious, market-driven reality “Lifelessness and deadness” “ I can't think of a single church that has split over Christology. Most of the arguments have to do with politics and, and related sort of cultural issues because that's what people really care about and what they really think often is important.” Tumult of the digital economy Alienation, dehumanization: “We can simultaneously think of ourselves as gods and as sets of data and algorithms.” Speed of change and life Teaching ethics: a final exam question students have never thought about How to prepare people for ethical problems and real-life challenges Mental health crisis: “high rates of depression and anxiety driven by a piece of glass that everybody carries in his or her pocket that can connect that person with all of the information in the entire world.” 100 years since the invention and use of the microphone No microphones, but extraordinary voices “The dials are askew, because the sound that evangelicalism is evoking in so many quadrants is a sound that is hostile and grading and brash and arrogant.” “The good news is so clouded with distorted noise.” Secularization How Evangelicalism appeals to people: End Times Prophecy, Marriage and Family Values, and Shocking Attention-Grabbing “Real life takes on the characteristics of the internet.” Wendall Berry: “You mistakenly think that the solution has to be at the same scale as the problem.” Can you give us some hope? “Hope that is seen is not hope. Instead, there's suffering that creates endurance. Endurance that creates character, character that creates hope, and hope does not put to shame.” Ezekiel and the valley of the dry bones What is the work of Christianity Today right now? Redefining who is “us.” Who is the “we” of Evangelicalism? “We simply want Jesus as revealed in scripture.” 2 Corinthians 4: “The glory of God reflected in the face of Jesus Christ.” Karl Barth and disillusionment during World War I: “We  we want to preach the gospel as though nothing has happened.” … “ He's saying the church is being co-opted and used by forces alien to it. And there have to be people who are free from that to actually appeal to the genuine gospel and to remind people that God is God.” How to cultivate freedom “One of the major challenges to a freedom is loss of attention.” “I have to be free from the constant whirl—and what he meant at the time was the radio, you know, which is nothing compared to what we have—because my attention is necessary for me to be able to serve and to give.” “Kingdom of God is like yeast.” Waiting, attention, and a longer view of time “How do you then hold onto this freedom that we're describing in a way of connected disconnectedness or disconnected connectedness or something?” Nicholas Carr: “Every person has to have an act of willful excommunication.” Revelation and the Book of Daniel: “Seal all this up for now. … Don't worry about it.” Nebuchadnezzar demanding  that. Shadrach, Mishak, and Abednego bow down and worship the golden statue. Evangelical Pastors: Preaching the Bible versus advocating a political vision Galatians 1 and 2—Paul's not yielding to false teachers in order to preserve the Gospel New Apostolic Reformation Christian Nationalism: “Bizarro Evangelicalism … i f you can get external conformity, then you have righteousness.” “Blood mysticism” Jonathan Rauch's Cross Purposes Keeping guard up in conversations with disagreement “Simply asking for Christians to be who we say we are.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“If a person is entrusted to care for a building and decides to tear it down, there's a moral imperative to disclose whether there are people inside. There are 20.6 million people and 566,000 children living inside PEPFAR.” PEPFAR is the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. And as of March 25, 2025, its congressional reauthorization has expired. For more than two decades, its website states, “the U.S. government has invested over $110 billion in the global HIV/AIDS response, the largest commitment by any nation to address a single disease in history—saving 26 million lives, preventing millions of HIV infections, and accelerating progress toward controlling the global HIV/AIDS pandemic in more than 50 countries.” Now, some estimate that over 20 million people will lose access to antiretroviral drugs, which may result in up to 1,650,000 deaths over the coming year. In this episode, Mark Labberton speaks with Mindy Belz, an award-winning journalist and longtime war correspondent, to explore the urgent moral and humanitarian implications of PEPFAR's uncertain future. Drawing on Belz's deep reporting experience in conflict zones and her time covering global health efforts, their conversation traces the remarkable legacy of the U.S. government's investment in HIV/AIDS relief, the stakes of congressional inaction, and the broader questions this crisis raises about American moral leadership, Christian charity, and global responsibility. Together they discuss: Mindy Belz's background as a journalist and war correspondent The significance of PEPFAR in the global battle against HIV/AIDS The pivotal leadership role the U.S. government has played in supporting AIDS relief efforts for the past two decades The devastating impact that losing PEPFAR would have on human life around the world, particularly in Africa And, perspectives on charity, moral conscience, and faith in American Christianity Helpful Links mindybelz.com Mindy's Article about PEPFAR: “1,650,000: How killing a global program to fight HIV/AIDS kills”: “PEPFAR contracts ended under Trump mean 20 million people on treatment now face HIV disease again. Without more reinstatements that could lead to a death toll of 1.6 million in a year's time.” About PEPFAR, the “President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief”: Through PEPFAR, the U.S. government has invested over $110 billion in the global HIV/AIDS response, the largest commitment by any nation to address a single disease in history – saving 26 million lives, preventing millions of HIV infections, and accelerating progress toward controlling the global HIV/AIDS pandemic in more than 50 countries. From ThinkGlobalHealth: “PEPFAR Misses Reauthorization Deadline: What's Next for Global HIV Fight?” Mindy's book They Say We Are Infidels: On the Run from ISIS with Persecuted Christians in the Middle East Follow Mindy on X @mindybelz Follow Mindy on Substack: Globe Trot About Mindy Belz Mindy Belz is an award-winning American journalist. For over two decades, she has covered wars and victims of conflict in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Sudan and the Balkans. She recounts some of her experiences in a 2016 award-winning book, They Say We Are Infidels. Her work appears in The Wall Street Journal, Plough Quarterly, and other publications. The New York Times calls her “one of the bravest and best foreign correspondents in the country.” Mindy currently is editor of the 2024 Christianity Today Globe project. Her news roundup, Globe Trot, is read by thousands each week and available on Substack. She speaks internationally and has taught journalism courses in Uganda, India, Hungary, and the United States. She is the former senior editor at World Magazine. A mother of four and grandmother of three, Mindy was married for 40 years to Nat Belz, who died in 2023. She lives in North Carolina. Show Notes Mindy Belz: A Journalist in the Trenches Mindy Belz and her career at World Magazine Mindy's coverage of the AIDS pandemic in East Africa and the war in Sudan The rise of Islamic extremism, Al-Quaeda, and crossing the Tigris into Iraq Her early experiences in journalism and what drew her to war reporting How she came to report from the Middle East and other conflict zones The challenges Mindy faced as a woman journalist “We've all experienced some of the conflict in the world. We've all experienced some terrorism and violence … this is a part of life in a broken and fallen world, and so learning from women, from men, from children incredible resilience in the face of terrible breakdowns is that I just consider a real privilege of my work.” Working with a Sudanese NGO—finding starving people, barely surviving “For Americans, we always get to walk away. I'm really aware in whatever hard situation I'm in, there's little voice at the back of my brain that's saying, ‘Don't forget you get to go home.'” What is PEPFAR? “ President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief,” developed by George W. Bush in 2003 Trendsetting program to battle HIV/AIDS Anti-viral drug program to prevent the spread (but not cure) the disease “We still don't have a real cure for HIV.” “You have 20 million people who are currently taking antiretroviral drugs that are funded under PEPFAR and most of those people just suddenly could not have access to their medicine and, and that means that we are watching even now the disease grow.” “The Trump administration has basically shuttered the program and they have done so without the oversight of Congress.” Nicholas Kristof's NYT March 15 article estimates that 1.6 million people could die over the next year. Link: “Musk Said No One Has Died Since Aid Was Cut. That Isn't True.” “The scale of the devastation is mind-bending.” What can we do? “Congress is not exercising its oversight responsibilities right now.” “If a person is entrusted to care for a building and decides to tear it down, there's a moral imperative to disclose whether there are people inside. There are 20.6 million people and 566,000 children living inside PEPFAR.” What is the role of our government? “I've also seen PEPFAR working and working incredibly. I routinely and in lifesaving ways.” Understanding moral conscience “We are needing to call our nation not to a Christian identity, which I think is the, the false attempt of Christian nationalism, but to a moral identity. That people of faith, little faith, no faith, other faiths, can enter into and share. And I think some element of that has been operational in the United States for a very long time. And now all of that is being dismantled and being labeled, as you say, by a really cheap word like charity, as though there's no wider frame than simply compassionate sentimentality, as opposed to something that's really taking the moral realities of the world and all of their urgency seriously. And not pretending that we need to be (as we've sometimes tried to be as a nation) the healer of the nations, but to say that we should actually be a force for taking these issues with great national seriousness, and not just repudiating it because it's not inside the boundaries of our own country.” “Use the influence and the economic force of the United States to fund local programs.” “ We have the resources to go and make a difference in this situation. And by doing that we set an example for others to do it.” “We  have adopted an attitude of scarcity.” The impact and efficacy of antiretroviral drugs to improve the lives of people with HIV/AIDS—”To suddenly cut them off is an act of cruelty.” “This is a system, not just medication.” “If we're suddenly saving $5 billion a year, what is that going to be used for?” ”If these things are all happening by executive decision, and Congress does not have a meaningful role, then essentially the people are cut out of the conversation.” “People who become sicker with HIV will become more likely to have tuberculosis, more likely to be suffering from other diseases than side effects of the virus itself.” Where Is God in All of This? “It's a dangerous world. Go anyway.” “We have to trust that the hand of God is there and that it will meet us in the midst of those hard situations.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"Listening is everything. Without listening, there's no music, no art, no understanding—just noise.” (Charlie Peacock, from the episode) Acclaimed musician, producer, podcaster, and author Charlie Peacock joins Mark Labberton to reflect on music, art, attention, listening, faith, and spirituality. From his groundbreaking work in pop music production (e.g., Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars), to his deep engagement with faith and mentorship, Charlie explores how attention shapes creativity, why making space for beauty is a spiritual discipline, and how a life of music can be an act of service. Through stories of artistic risk, collaboration, and calling, this conversation explores the rhythms of a flourishing life. In this episode, they discuss: Charlie's new memoir, Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music The communal nature of making and producing music The unsung music heroes from Charlie's life Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things Hearing and visualizing music The intersection of creativity, spirituality, and paying attention, How listening transforms both art and relationships, Life lessons from jazz, pop, and worship music production, And the role of both sound and silence in artistic and spiritual life. About Charlie Peacock Charlie Peacock is a six-time Grammy Award–winning musician and producer, having produced Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars, and many more artists. A three-time recipient of the Gospel Music Association's Producer of the Year Award, he's named by Billboard's Encyclopedia of Record Producers as one of the five hundred most important producers in popular music history. His latest book is Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music, and you can listen to his podcast, Music & Meaning. For more information visit charliepeacock.com. Episode Highlights "If you're not paying attention, you're missing the song that's already being sung around you." "A mentor doesn't hand you a map; they help you learn how to navigate." "Faith and art are both about trust—trusting the unseen, the unfinished, and the uncertain." "The hardest and best lesson for any artist: keep showing up and doing the work." "Music isn't just a product—it's a means of connection, healing, and worship." Show Notes Charlie Peacock, Roots & Rhythm Music and community The unsung music heroes from Charlie's life Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things Hearing and visualizing music Michael Polanyi tacit understandings Re-creation of the old into the dramatically new—e.g., Notre Dame Cathedral The joy of generational community Jazz: spirit, skill, and ability “That's what I love about jazz improvisation. There was nothing and then there was something. Over and over again. … When you have those people in a room making music … it's hard to go to sleep at night.” “I have been pursued by a loving Creator … God-haunted since I was a little boy.” “I wanted to know everything. … how, why, what, when … everything.” “Never once was there a moment when I was out of God's grip.” Charlie Peacock's Secret of Time: “God gives you time to be saved.” John Coltrane's spiritual journey “250 people a night…” “I took the F-word out of two songs, and stopped taking 10% from the bar tab.” Hans Rookmaaker Inklings Time in England and the Netherlands, including time at L'Abri (run by Francis and Edith Schaeffer) “An artist and a follower of Jesus, and how those two could be congruent …” “Our death is life to life. The kingdom has already begun. We have been living it. And we will continue to live it.” “Playing with the entire history of music in your brain.” The Civil Wars: “We re-presented hyper-dynamics. … A lot of people have never heard that before. … It invites you in and lets you sit back.” (e.g., pianissimo to forte) Over-compressed music. “That lean in to the music is a part of your participation. … I'm committed to this music.” “I produced music in the ‘80s. I know how to ruin a record. … Big hair and big snare. … But really it had to do with technology.” Music in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s Neil Postman: “To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” “When I use this tool I have to make sure it doesn't use me.” “My subtext is that this is a book about epistemology. … To say, ‘This is how I know what I know.' It came through God, people, and place.” A worker-bee in the music business “Like a house with a party going on” Vocation, epistemology, and how an artists become who they are Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“They're fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane. … There's a wideness in God's mercy. Since when has anybody said mercy for some and not for all? … Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up.  … This is not an impossible crisis to solve. … We need to not be divided by our political affiliations. As Christians, we stand with Christ, who critiques all human institutions.” (Alexia Salvatierra, from the episode) The immigration crisis on US borders reveals a deeper crisis of humanity—another example of democracy at a turning point. What should be the Christian response to the current immigration crisis? How can the individuals and small communities take effective action? And who are the real people most affected by immigration policy in the United States? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes theologian, pastor, and activist Alexia Salvatierra. She shares stories from the front lines of immigration justice. Alexia Salvatierra is an ordained Lutheran pastor and a leading voice in faith-based social justice movements. She serves as assistant professor of integral mission and global transformation at Fuller Theological Seminary and has been a key organizer in immigrant advocacy for over four decades. She co-authored Faith-Rooted Organizing: Mobilizing the Church in Service to the World and works extensively with grassroots organizations to address the intersection of faith, justice, and policy. Together they discuss: Personal testimonies and policy insights based on stories of real people facing the immigration system in the United States The challenges immigrants face under an increasingly unforgiving system How faith communities can respond with faithful courage and productive grief, instead of outrage The global nature of the immigration, refugee, and foreign-aid crisis The width of God's mercy and the effectiveness of immigration and refugee public policy A call to action for Christians to become “gracious disrupters” and stand with the vulnerable Helpful Links and Resources World Relief – Christian organization supporting refugees Lutheran Social Services – Organization falsely accused of money laundering Show Notes Immigration policy and the church's response The impact of executive orders on deportation and asylum seekers Faith-based advocacy for immigrants The role of Latino churches in immigrant support How Christians can move from outrage to courageous action Immigration reform Faith-based activism ICE raids on churches Asylum seekers and deportation Christian response to immigration crisis Latino churches and advocacy Political fear versus Christian courage The role of the church in justice Broken immigration system Policy changes under different administrations Immigration Today: Stories and Case Studies An Assemblies of God pastor from Guatemala, facing deportation despite three qualifying cases for legal residency—South Los Angeles “ That's what we mean by a broken system, is there's all these little wrinkles in the system that don't work.” Detention at a deportation facility called Adelanto ”They're fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane.” Asylum, ankle bracelets, and “legitimate fear” “ They said he was a criminal because he had entered without authorization twenty years before when he was a teenager.” ICE agents attempting to detain a man during a worship service ICE and “sensitive locations”—Is a church an ICE “sensitive location”? Hispanic Theological Education Association Latino Christian National Network “That arrest has  provoked intense fear. …  they're terrified to go to church.” The impact of anti-immigration policies on church attendance and spiritual care A desperate mother of a special-needs child preparing legal custody papers in case of deportation The economic and moral contradictions in mass deportation efforts “Cities that have municipal sanctuary laws are threatened with suit by the new administration.” The Global Immigration and Refugee Crisis “All around the world immigration is in crisis.” 1980 Refugee Act “All the countries who signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights have to take refugees.” The concept of “Refoulment”—”which means that you're sending someone back to die.” “Not only are all refugee programs stopped, but current refugees are not getting the support that they need.” “ Costa Rica is a five-million-person  country and they've taken two million refugees.” American Immigration During the Trump Administration Elon Musk saying “ that Lutheran Social Services was a money-laundering machine.” Current administration's policies as “ bold, unilateral, and so comprehensive and unnuanced” “If the Trump administration is successful at deporting ten million people, many of whom have been here over twenty years, thirty years, um, where will we find the labor that we need?” Policy and Legal Discussion The end of Deferred Deportation under the Trump and Biden administrations Executive orders eliminating prioritization of deportation The freezing of USAID and refugee support programs “All foreign aid has always been strategic. It's never not.” “Global warming refugees” “The current president of Venezuela loves gangs.” “Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up. …  this is not an impossible crisis to solve.” The bipartisan immigration bill that Trump advised Republicans to block Historical immigration policies and their effectiveness “Policy does make a difference.” Objection to open borders: What about mercy for Americans? A false dichotomy. God's mercy is wide. “We have a number of believers in Congress who are acting out of fear right now and not out of faith.” Call to Action How faith communities can support immigrants “Immigrant churches are taking the brunt of this.” Why outrage doesn't help the process Ways to engage with legislators and advocate for reform The importance of standing with immigrant churches in this moment Supporting organizations like World Relief and Lutheran Social Services “The bulk of the people in the United States, the majority, have not had to grieve on this level. Not had to grieve with this intensity, with this constancy. Our spiritual muscles are weak—in terms of knowing how to grieve and keep going and trust God. ‘Though he slay me, I will worship him.'” “Encourage literally means ‘to get more courage.' You know, to give courage, to get courage. And so I just would want everybody to stop being outraged and start being courageous.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the full-bodied, empathetic nature of listening and the communication process. He reflects on good listening, the empathy it requires, and what it means to truly recognize and successfully understand each other. Listening and perceiving are bound up together in a fundamental way, offering us an opportunity to enter into another's experience, truly seeing and recognizing them and receiving who they are. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes “Listening is almost always seeing.” Full-bodied listening and how perception adds to our understanding of each other “If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.” Examples of bad listening: “pinning words on the speaker.” Recognition for the speaker: “My listening reflects that I'm actually perceiving them.” The fun and joyful work of communication Total body experience of listening and perceiving is about empathy. Empathy and entering the speaker's world and experience The difference empathy makes “Empathy, even when you're wanting to give it doesn't make it automatic.  It often has to be something that emerges out of the communication experience itself.” Hearing, perception, and full-bodied communication “How we see and receive another person's being…” Achieving a communication breakthrough: “Oh, I see!” ”It is like amazing grace is playing in the background. And I want to say ‘I once was blind, but now I see' that's what it feels like a real revelatory discovery.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“‘To whom much is given, much is expected.' …  That is the core of our Christian belief.” “I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad brush.” (Condoleezza Rice, from this episode) In this episode, Condoleezza Rice joins Mark Labberton to discuss the state of US foreign and domestic policy in light of Christian moral convictions. Secretary Rice served as the 66th US Secretary of State under President George W. Bush, has been on the faculty of Stanford University since 1981, and is currently the director of the Hoover Institution. Together they discuss: The state of US foreign policy and international relations How to think about American involvement in global politics The importance of US foreign assistance American patriotism and Christian devotion And Condoleezza Rice's prayers for American leaders right now: discernment, judgment, compassion, and policy that reflects the dignity of all human beings. About Condoleezza Rice Condoleezza Rice is the Tad and Dianne Taube Director of the Hoover Institution and the Thomas and Barbara Stephenson Senior Fellow on Public Policy. She is the Denning Professor in Global Business and the Economy at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. In addition, she is a founding partner of Rice, Hadley, Gates & Manuel, LLC, an international strategic consulting firm. From January 2005 to January 2009, Rice served as the 66th Secretary of State of the United States, the second woman and first black woman to hold the post. Rice also served as President George W. Bush's Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs (National Security Advisor) from January 2001 to January 2005, the first woman to hold the position. Rice served as Stanford University's provost from 1993 to 1999, during which time she was the institution's chief budget and academic officer. As professor of political science, she has been on the Stanford faculty since 1981 and has won two of the university's highest teaching honors. From February 1989 through March 1991, Rice served on President George H.W. Bush's National Security Council staff. She served as director, then senior director, of Soviet and East European Affairs, as well as Special Assistant to the President for National Security. In 1986, while an International Affairs Fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, Rice also served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. For more information, visit her profile at the Hoover Institution. Show Notes The state of US international relations “ The beginning of any administration is a bit chaotic” “I continue to hope that we will find a way to help Ukraine so that Vladimir Putin doesn't benefit from the aggression that he committed.” “The United States will undoubtedly play a different role. … That is the outcome of what's been eighty years of post World War II American engagement. … And so we need to ask, what are our values? What are our interests? And I think we're going to, we're going to see a good, solid American role in foreign policy.” Is the world order in the process of receiving a shock treatment? “ We really do need to rebuild our defense industrial base.” USAID: “ I'm a great believer that foreign assistance is one of the important tools in our toolkit of foreign policy.” “ I actually am one who believes that the absorption of USAID into the State Department is the right answer.” On US foreign assistance “A lot of what we do is purely humanitarian, purely life saving. We should. Just do that. Some of what we do is also strategic. What countries do we help to develop to be less fragile so that they don't become hubs for terrorism? …  And sometimes our assistance is to stabilize places in the world so that we don't face a security problem down the road.” Developing infrastructure “Am I patriotic? Do I love my country? Am I a nationalist? Absolutely. Am I Christian? Yes. And so I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad crust.” “But if we think about what it means to be Christian, it means to care about every human being, because every human being is created in the image of the Lord, and therefore every human being has worth.” “One of the closing comments from President Bush was, ‘To whom much is given, much is expected. …  that is the core of our Christian belief.” What is  the state of the Christian influence in American politics and life? Emulating the early church in establishing orphanages and hospitals, “and  to be a voice on behalf of those who are dispossessed.” Religious Freedom “When I was secretary of state, not because I was Christian, but because I was secretary of state, I would take a list of religious objectors with me to countries like China.” “The evangelical church has been very involved in human trafficking issues. We actually do have a problem of modern slavery.” “The church has a lot of potential to be a really good force in the world.” Condoleeza Rice's most passionate prayers for the nation and the world right now “My most passionate prayer is that our leaders would have—and I actually pray this prayer— that they would have judgment and discernment, that they would have compassion, that they would lead from a position of knowing how much America has, and that they would understand that our role in the world derives from our universal belief in human freedom and that it is the only way that human beings have the dignity that they should have as having been created by God.” “I think one of the reasons we've had a bit of a backlash against some foreign assistance is that people wonder, ‘Well, are you thinking about Americans in the same way?'” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“ When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) Why is it so hard to communicate? To accomplish the simple task of delivering and receiving information? In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton suggests that real and successful communication is a miracle, and an infrequent one at that. Our failure to communicate regularly demonstrates just how far we are from adequately listening to one another. Ultimately, if we want to seek the miracle of communication, we need to take the responsibility to "close the loop" and do the work of hearing, listening, and acknowledging receipt. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes Endless communication meetings talking about the failure of our communication News media's failure to communicate Marital failures to communicate Parent-child failures to communication Over-communicating with too much information Undoing miscommunication “Communication is a miracle and not a frequent one.” Why is it so hard to communicate? “ In many ways, the stakes are against us when we're really trying to communicate.” Ears, eyes, space, time, sounds, lighting How far we are from adequately listening to one another Acknowledging receipt of a message “The world is pushy. Culture is pushy.” Clarity of mind and heart ”When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” The importance of closing the communication loop “If I'm seeking the miracle of communication, then I have to live into the responsibility of closing the loop of communication and not just being a passive recipient of what it is that's been said.” Failure to close the loop is what allows us to measuring the infrequency of true, successful communication. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

This is a turbulent time for American democracy. Years, perhaps decades, of social change is manifesting in the form of distrust, violence, chaos, fear, loneliness, and despair. But Conversing, along with Comment magazine, is about hope, healing, and hospitality. For this special 200th episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton invites Anne Snyder (Editor-in-Chief, Comment magazine) for a close reading and discussion of the 2025 Comment Manifesto, a hopeful new document offering a vision of Christian Humanism for this era. Together they discuss: The meaning and intent behind a new Comment magazine Manifesto for Christian humanism The Incarnation of Christ for what it means to be human Hospitality in an era of exclusion Healthy institutions and the importance of communal agency Individualism vs communitarianism Learning to perceive the world in fresh, surprising ways About the Comment Manifesto To read the Manifesto in its entirety, visit comment.org/manifesto/, or scroll below. To watch a reading of selections from the Comment Manifesto, click here. About Anne Snyder Anne Snyder is the Editor-in-Chief of Comment magazine, which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit https://comment.org/ for more information. For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large. Anne also oversees our Comment's partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022). Show Notes Giving thanks for 200 episodes of Conversing! 2000 years of Christian thought to the public square James K.A. Smith, the former editor of Comment Magazine Seeking a positive moral vision A turbulent moment for democracy MANIFESTO SECTION 1 “We are Christian humanists…” What it means to be human in our age—our infinite dignity, relationship to the earth, and woundedness The significance of Jesus Christ for what it means to be human What the Incarnation of Christ means for our world “So many people we know and love and respect feel ecclesially homeless, obviously politically homeless.” MANIFESTO SECTION 2 “We believe it's time to build…” Agency Called to a co-creative project Productive and constructive “Contributing the true and good and beautiful in a messy world.” MANIFESTO SECTION 3 “We believe in institutions…” Collective, common, and communal Institutions, as part of the social architecture of our world, can be extraordinarily positive. “I always get asked, ‘Why do you believe in institutions? Why? You don't need to! They're gone! They're dead!'” “Healthy institutions are channels within which you can actually realize your sense of agency in a way that might be more moving than you ever would have imagined just by yourself.” Yuval Levin's take on community (paraphrased): “All the tumult we're experiencing, we're just having a big fight about what kinds of what community means.” Polarization MAGA as a kind of community “I consider myself a bit of a communitarian.” Christian humanism throughout history always has four projects connected to it: Theology, character formation, political economy, and aesthetic. MANIFESTO SECTION 4 “We believe in the transformative power of encounter—encountering reality, encountering those unlike us.” Addressing the fractured social fabric and isolation of this age Encounter and trust Hospitality— ”taking one another's being and doing in the world seriously enough” Enter the room listening MANIFESTO SECTION 5 “We believe Christianity is perpetually on the move. There is no sacred capital.” “This is our most aggressive claim.” Distinguishing Comment from peer publications such as First Things “All cultures are fallen, and we're part of another kingdom.” Galatians 5 and the Fruit of the Spirit Civilizational Christianity The smallness of “faith, family, flag” “So much of my Christian identity has been rewritten by experiences of Christian faith that are completely outside the, the social reality that is my fundamental location.” ”When Christianity seems to be running the dangerous risk of being captured, captured by a certain kind of ideological political social frame that feels as though it's really making itself primary simply by its Napoleonic capacity for self-crowning, that is a very, very dangerous thing.” MANIFESTO SECTION 6 “We believe there are different ways of knowing—that the thinker and the practitioner have equally valuable wisdoms worth airing, that relationship and context matter for the ways in which we perceive reality, that the child with Down syndrome perceives truths that a Nobel Prize winner cannot, and that there is a need for those who inhabit these myriad ways to share space and learn how to pursue understanding—perhaps even revelation—together.” Perceiving the world differently Down syndrome and the expression of a different kind of knowing or wisdom Full circle with the first principle of the imago Dei Functioning out of either confidence, uncertainty, or anxiety Mark Labberton's friend Dustin (R.I.P), who had cerebral palsy Fatigue, trying to get our bearings Looking for moral and eschatological coherence Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary. The 6 Primary Sections of the 2025 Comment Manifesto To read the Manifesto in its entirety, visit comment.org/manifesto/. We are Christian humanists, those who believe that Jesus Christ—God become man—is the ultimate measure of what it means to be human. We believe that every human being is created in the image of God, whole persons who are at once fallen yet gloriously endowed, finite and dependent, yet deserving of infinite dignity. We seek to stay true both to the wonder and to the woundedness of life this side of the veil, even as our eschatology floods us with hope: Jesus has walked with us, died, risen, and ascended, and he will come again to make all things new. We believe it's a time to build, that the creative imagination and the Christian imagination are mysteriously linked. We want to begin with the Yes in Christ, not our own noes. While there is an important role for criticism baptized in a study of what is true, good, and beautiful, it is a means to an end—the basis for wise repair and imagination, not the justification for destruction or erasure. We are committed to keeping orthodoxy and orthopraxy married, taking seriously our job to translate between them. We believe in institutions: government, guilds, families, schools, universities, the church. We recognize that in our age of individualism, institutions are often painted as the enemy. We try to change that, seeking to shape the character of today's most formative institutions while exploring what kind of reimagined social architecture might compel the next generation's trust. We believe in the transformative power of encounter—encountering reality, encountering those unlike us. Loving enemies is bedrock for Comment, hospitality core. We are champions of the difficult room. We believe in the deeper truths that can be discovered when different life experiences and distinct sources of wisdom are gathered around one table. We intentionally publish arguments with which we disagree, including those who don't hail Christ as Lord, not for the sake of pluralism without conviction, but because Christians have always better understood the contours and depths of their faith when crystallized through exchanges with strangers turned friends. We believe Christianity is perpetually on the move. There is no sacred capital. While the audience we serve is navigating a North American context, we serve this audience from an understanding that Christianity is an intercultural, polyglot religion. At a time of rising religious ethno-nationalism, we insist that no culture can claim to represent the true form of Christianity, and we actively seek for our authors and partners to reflect the global reality of the church. We believe there are different ways of knowing—that the thinker and the practitioner have equally valuable wisdoms worth airing, that relationship and context matter for the ways in which we perceive reality, that the child with Down syndrome perceives truths that a Nobel Prize winner cannot, and that there is a need for those who inhabit these myriad ways to share space and learn how to pursue understanding—perhaps even revelation—together. ... Our theory of change takes its cues from the garden, less the machine. We are personalists, not ideologues. We follow the logic of Jesus's mustard seed, of yeast transforming a whole pile of dough, of the principle of contagiousness and change happening over generations. We believe in the value of slow thought. We are skeptical of the language of scale in growing spiritual goods. While we wish to be savvy in unmasking the either/or reactivity of our age and will always call out dehumanizing trendlines, we are fundamentally animated by the creative impulse, by a philosophy of natality expressed through hospitality. This feels especially important in this time between eras when no one knows what's next, and we need one another to recalibrate, to reflect, and to shape a hopeful future.

”I grew up thinking that Christianity was basically cruel and hypocritical.” “The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.” “That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.” —Jonathan Rauch, from the episode We're at a crossroads, where Christianity and secularism in America are both operating at cross-purposes, and both need a critical reassessment of their role in democratic public life. In his new book, Jonathan Rauch “reckons candidly with both the shortcomings of secularism and the corrosion of Christianity.” He “addresses secular Americans who think Christianity can be abandoned, and Christian Americans who blame secular culture for their grievances.” Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode),  Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch. He is also a celebrated essayist, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and a recipient of the 2005 National Magazine Award, the magazine industry's equivalent of the Pulitzer Prize. In this episode Mark Labberton and Jonathan Rauch discuss: Republican virtue What Jesus and James Madison have in common The political idolatry of secularism The differences between the thin church, sharp church, and thick church The political orientation of the church in exile Tyrannical fear The Morman church's example of civic theology “of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” The promise of power in exchange for loyalty About Jonathan Rauch Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode),  Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch. Show Notes Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth Reasonable, civic mindedness “Graciousness toward a faith you don't share.” “Of course I knew I was Jewish. I also knew that the idea of God seemed silly to me. I just never, never could believe it.” The Rev. Dr. Mark McIntosh 2003 Atlantic article: “The dumbest thing I ever wrote” celebrating secularism in America (”Let It Be,” The Atlantic, May 2003) “ It turned out that when Christianity started to fail, people started looking for substitutes, because they were looking for a source of identity and values and transcendent meaning.” Political idolatry of secularism “A major reason the country is becoming ungovernable is because of Christianity's crisis. We can no longer separate the two, and that's why I, a very secular person, am writing a book about Christianity.” “Moving away from the teachings of Jesus…” “The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.” Mark's description of his father: “ My dad used to save certain neck veins for the discussion of religion because he felt like it was something that should be avoided, at that time, at all costs, particularly its most zealous kind. And his primary critique was that what religious people do is that they take great things and make them small. …   What shocked me when I became a Christian was this discovery that Jesus and my dad had this same theme in common, that Jesus often objected to the small making of various religious authorities of his day.” “God's capacious grace, creativity, purpose, and love” Will the church live in its identity as followers of Jesus? “Christianity is a load-bearing wall in our liberal democracy.” “Republican virtues” (not the party): lawful, truthful, civic education, tolerant, pluralistic Christianity's role in upholding the unprecedented religious freedom “When Christians begin demanding things that are inconsistent with those core values, that makes everything else in the country harder.” “The thin church is a church that blends into the surrounding culture and it becomes diluted.” “The sharp church is …  where the church takes on the political colorations of the surrounding environment, aligns itself with a political party.” Divisive and polarizing “The third is the thick church. And there, the challenge is that you want a church to be counter cultural. You want it to have a strong sense of its own values. Otherwise, it's just not doing the work. So it needs to ask a lot of its followers. It needs to give a lot back in exchange. That's what sociologists mean by, by thick communities and groups. At the same time, it needs to be reasonably well aligned with our constitution and our liberal democratic values.” Church of fear Fear of demographic decline Cultural fear and losing the country to the woke Left Fear of emasculation Plain old political fear: “Our side needs to win.” Fear as a major theme of the Bible Fear of God as “the beginning of wisdom” “A communion of unlike people. … A workshop in which the character of God … is meant to be learned.” Immaturity and lack of wisdom in the church “The chief defense of the faith in the world that Jesus died and rose is that unlike people find communion with one another in a union that only Jesus Christ's death and resurrection could actually accomplish.” “Tyrannical fear”—a drive for dominance “Fear is part of the human condition. Yet what's so countercultural about Christianity, is its teaching that you can't be governed by that fear. You can't let it run your life and go around in a state of panic. And that Jesus Christ himself had lots to be fearful of, as we know from the end that he came to, and yet comported himself in this calm and dignified way, did not let fear triumph over him. That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.” “Fear casts out love.” Trump administration['s] … demonstration of a capacity to have literally no compassion, no empathy.” The paradigm of Exodus versus the paradigm of exile Isaiah 58: “ Now as strangers in a strange land in Babylon, I'm going to ask you: Who are you now? Who do you trust now? Who are you going to put the full weight of your life on now?” “Exilic Church” “ Christianity is not about owning the country or winning in politics.” “It can't be a coincidence that at a moment when (at least) white Protestantism in the United States is obsessed with political influence and has mortgaged itself to the least Christlike figure possibly in American political history (in any case, right up there) that its numbers are shrinking catastrophically.” “The irony of the cross always is this self emptying power.” [Trump] is saying, “I will give you power, and in exchange, you will give me unquestioning loyalty.” Comparing Trump's transaction (at Dordt University in Iowa) “If you vote for me, you will have power” with the temptation of Christ in the desert: “All of this will be yours if you bow down to me.” Transactional relationship with power The Mormon church's “ civic theology … of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” Jesus: “Don't be afraid, imitate Jesus, and forgive each other.” Madisonian liberalism: “Don't panic if you lose an election, protect minorities and the dignity of every individual, and don't seek retribution if you win, share the country.” “When Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western civilization, he said, ‘It would be a good idea.'” Black church and MLK Jr.—”emphasis on Reverend” “You accept the stripes and the crown of thorns. You turn the other cheek.” Profoundly counterintuitive countercultural example Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) “What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode) “ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode) The transition of power from one presidential administration to another always has the potential for turbulence—often a surreal, perplexing, or disorienting process. But is there anything peculiar or problematic about the opening days of Donald Trump's second term in office? Is there anything unconstitutional? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes back Yuval Levin for a conversation about the political and social impact of Donald Trump's first month in office in light of Constitutional law and the Separation of Powers. Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Currie Chair in Public Policy. His latest book is American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again. He's founder of National Affairs, senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor of National Review, and contributing opinion writer at the New York Times. Together they discuss: The authority of the Constitution over the presidency The importance of character in the office of the president The separation of powers and the threat of presidential overreach What American citizens should be genuinely worried about right now The importance of cross-partisan policymaking and a variety of political voices Why we should worry, but not panic About Yuval Levin Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. The founder and editor of National Affairs, he is also a senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times. At AEI, Levin and scholars in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies research division study the foundations of self-government and the future of law, regulation, and constitutionalism. They also explore the state of American social, political, and civic life, focusing on the preconditions necessary for family, community, and country to flourish. Levin served as a member of the White House domestic policy staff under President George W. Bush. He was also executive director of the President's Council on Bioethics and a congressional staffer at the member, committee, and leadership levels. In addition to being interviewed frequently on radio and television, Levin has published essays and articles in numerous publications, including Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, The Atlantic, and Commentary. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation – and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024). He holds an MA and PhD from the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago. Show Notes A time of “presidential gigantism” “Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” Pluralism and vigorous debate Swamping a weak, divided Congress Separation of Powers Legislature vs Executive Branch “ Nobody really ever expected the president to be representative. Presidents are elected to be accountable. Congress is elected to be representative.” “What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” Performative nature of political roles “Random grab-bag of power plays.” Fear of a “lawless president” “The beginning of  a new administration is unavoidably a little surreal.” “ It's important not to over-read the strength that's evident at the outset here because we don't really know how much of this will play out.” Elon Musk as Pseudo-President “ The president does command the executive branch. On the other hand, the president does not command the federal government.” “ When the question is, does the president have to follow the law, the answer to that is going to be yes.” Is the Supreme Court going to keep Trump in check? Overturning Chevron deference “Character is destiny.” “ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” “ The fact that character's destiny in the presidency is not good news for Donald Trump and is not good news for the country while he is president because the biggest problem with Trump is his character, is the lack of a sense of personal responsibility and self restraint, the lack of a respect for the need for stability and coherence in leadership, And to have an administration that has that character is going to challenge our system and I think just create problems for the country in some important ways.” ”In moments of decision and crisis, it's the president's character that determines how things go.” “ My biggest worry about Trump is not one policy or another. There's some I like and some I don't. But it's that ultimately the presidency is one person, and this one person is just not a good fit for that office.” Presidential overreach Loyalty tests and punishment “ What the president really does is make hard decisions.” Having room for opposition “Administration is impossible when people on the ground are afraid to tell you what's going on.” Alarm Bells First: “The possibility of the administration just willfully ignoring a court order.” Second: “Ignoring signals of trouble, ignoring dissent, ignoring opposing voices, a sense that they're ignoring reality and pretending things are happening that aren't. That's very dangerous in the presidency.” Third: “It's also worth worrying about the tendency for vengeance and for personal vendettas for using the power of prosecution and of law enforcement for political purposes, even for personal purposes.” Character and mindset Congress has 535 people. The presidency comes down to one person. Dangers on the horizon Checks and balances Laying the groundwork for a third Trump term? “On the whole  our institutions have proven fairly strong.” “It is better to worry than to panic. Worry lets you make distinctions …” Yuval Levin's American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again What is the voice of citizenship right now? Appropriations “Governors are some of the sanest people in our politics in this moment.” “I don't think that the lesson of Trump's first term should be that people who oppose him should just sit it out and wait. I think the lesson on the contrary is that the Trump administration does respond to pressure.” “Policy change should happen through cross partisan negotiation in Congress.” “President Trump has said, for example, that in his first month in office, he wants to have met every house Republican.” A variety of voices “In a way, the mindset of what's the thing we would do if we could magically do anything is the problem, not the solution. And it's how Donald Trump is thinking, what would I do if I were the emperor? I think the most important thing in this moment is for him to realize that he is not the emperor, and that our system never lets us do that thing we would want to do. That's the beauty of the system.” “The other great political question. What can I get done that I also want to achieve?” “God Bless America.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don't know you. I don't know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don't understand how you have experienced life. I don't share in that emotional moment. I don't have that same vocabulary. I don't have that same life experience.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the reality and meaning of the fact that “I am not you.” He considers the importance of differentiation between speaker and listener, and the best posture of the listener not only to gain information, but to contribute back to the speaker and the conversation itself, opening up a deeper and more imaginative exchange. Learning to appreciate and pursue knowledge of “differentiated others,” listening in this context becomes an antidote to presumption. The less presumptuous we are about others, the more knowledge and perspective we're likely to gain. Listening is also more than immediate reflection. Better than restatement would be to probe the speaker's interest and awaken their imagination, thereby creating new possibilities for everyone involved. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate, inspire, and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection—a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes The gift of listening is not just similarities, but differentiation The adventure of knowing another person Mature listening Expanding the heart and mind through true differentiation Letting differentiation be a gift, and not a threat—leading to compassion, mercy, justice, and enlivened exchange “A chance to be more than our mere selves.” We're each coming from different bodies, contexts, backgrounds, etc. Understanding the volley or back-and-forth “Sometimes listening is just an excuse for being quiet while we develop our own lines that we're preparing to say to the other person. That is not listening. That's something else. That's about plotting and planning, or it's about fear, or it's about anxiety …” Earnest, genuine listening means becoming a genuine learner, without presumptions. “The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don't know you. I don't know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don't understand how you have experienced life. I don't share in that emotional moment. I don't have that same vocabulary. I don't have that same life experience.” What happens when you are wrongly presumptuous about other people Listening is an unmasking of presumption. Exposing our presumptions Reflecting the words of the other is not enough; genuine listening unearths and awakens the imagination of the other Reaching genuine depth of conversational volley “These things are critical in leadership, because communication is a miracle—and not a frequent one.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“I'm one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” (Megan Katerjian, from the episode) What is it like to lose your house in a fire? The Eaton Fire in Los Angeles County started on January 7, 2025, and within twenty-four hours had burned over fourteen thousand acres of Altadena, California, and surrounding areas. Thousands of people have lost their homes (some without any guarantee of home insurance or FEMA aid), thousands of schools have closed, and life in this beautiful city has been completely transformed. Today's guest, Megan Katerjian, went from helping local homeless families find housing to experiencing homelessness herself, when her family's northwest Altadena home burned down in the Eaton Fire. She is CEO of Door of Hope and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Megan to discuss her experience and perspective. Megan courageously and vulnerably opens up about the pain of losing a meaningful space of care and comfort, and shares about the physical, emotional, social, and spiritual realities of what this traumatic experience has been like. Together they discuss: Megan's story of losing her house in the Eaton Fire The insights Megan gained about homelessness through experiencing her own version of it Megan's work and ministry as CEO of Door of Hope, a Christian non-profit, based in Pasadena, serving Los Angeles County. From their website: “One of the only homeless providers that can shelter any kind of family together in their own private unit, including single moms, single dads, and two-parent families together with their children.” The meaning of a social safety network The effect of trauma on decision-making What approach to self-care and restoration she is pursuing The social and economic impact of homelessness The difference between financial and relational poverty And how you can help those affected by the Eaton Fire If you are unhoused for any reason, including having lost your home in the Los Angeles fires, visit DoorofHope.us for reliable information and practical resources. For additional information, visit Fuller Seminary's Wind and Fire Resources page. Additional links: Summary of Eaton Fire City of Pasadena Eaton Fire Updates About Megan Katerjian Rev. Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope, and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry, working for non-profits in Los Angeles, Chicago, and South Africa, as well as churches in California. Megan holds two master's degrees from Fuller Seminary, a bachelor's degree from Cornell University, and a certificate in non-profit management. Megan lost her Altadena home in the Eaton Fires in east Los Angeles County in January 2025. Show Notes Learn more about Door of Hope: Empowering families facing homelessness to transform their lives Megan Katerjian shares about what the past month has been like after losing her house in the Altadena fires Temporary housing to transitional housing “I'm one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” Integrating Jesus and justice How Door of Hope works with Pasadena homeless The power-control cycle single mothers face A mother's story of going from brokenness and despair to hope and empowerment Altadena's fires Megan Katerjian tells her story of finding and then losing her home in northwest Altadena “It's about the meaning of the home rather than the physical space.” Trauma-informed design: colors and arrangements bring the feelings of safety and comfort “I don't think I've ever sobbed that hard in my life.” Losing a life-giving environment of comfort and peace How to pray for the devastation of the fires in Southern California Self-care “I can't watch the news right now. … The fire coverage is really triggering.” Taking time off to grieve and pick up the pieces Being with people who went through the same experience Leaving town for respite in Goleta, California “I talked to God in very distracted conversations.” “The sun rises and sets every day, and God is present every day. And just that steadiness and that calm and that reminder was really, really important for me.” Expanding empathy and understanding of homelessness The irony of learning about homeless The impact of trauma-brain on the ability to make important decisions; slower processing “What the world might interpret as laziness or lack of motivation could just be the impact of trauma.” The “Social Service Shuffle”: good leads, bad leads, time wasted, etc. FEMA and “a sea of cots” “If I had nothing in my bank account and didn't have a friend who had set up a GoFundMe page, I would be panicking right now.” “Homelessness is not just about financial poverty, it's about relational poverty.” The benefits of a thick social safety network Walking through Asheville, North Carolina, after the hurricane flood Impact on the housing market for renting and buying homes Will any landlords be willing to take a Section 8 voucher? Multi-generation black homeowner families who have lived in Altadena for many years after redlining moved them out of Pasadena “The economics look a little different.” Three families in the same home—”what does their social safety network look like?” Door of Hope pivoting to create  the Eaton Fire Housing Assistance Program Working with FEMA and home insurance Working with the church to respond to the crisis and provide a family of care, support, and love Self-care as restorative rather than selfish A call to action: Please act and help those impacted by the fires in Southern California Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

A special episode for the inauguration of Donald Trump's second term, as the forty-seventh president of the United States. Whether you're filled with hope and joy, or anxiety and fearfulness, how can we pursue a common citizenship that is grounded in faith and moral sensitivity, focused on justice and love, and rightfully patriotic? Today, Mark welcomes friends Pete Wehner (columnist, The Atlantic, and Fellow, Trinity Forum), Anne Snyder (editor-in-chief, Comment magazine), and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary). Together they discuss: The inauguration of Donald Trump for his second term in office; The meaning of patriotism in an unfolding, rambunctious democratic experiment; Repentance, repair, and understanding; How to keep a moral-ethical grounding in political life; Balancing open curiosity and genuine concern; What rejuvenates and renews us during anxious political times (exploring beauty in nature and art); Learning disagreement in a post-civility era; Peacemaking instead of polarization; Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal; And how to pray for Donald Trump as he enters his next term in office. About Peter Wehner Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships. Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives. Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia. About Anne Snyder Anne Snyder is the editor-in-chief of Comment magazine, **which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit comment.org for more information. For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large. Anne also oversees Comment's partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022). About David Goatley David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995). In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment. Show Notes What each guest values and honours about America, expressing commitment and affection as citizens “Any presidential inauguration is weight bearing.” Pete Wehner: a first-generation American From ideals to reality about the history of America “ I'm the kind of patriot who is committed to the country being the best that it can be.” “Rambunctious unfolding-still … democratic experiment.” The scene for Inauguration Day 2021 Strength and vitality of American life What are your commitments and hopes for the next four years? “Some of my siblings for whom their angst is new, and I'm happy to say, welcome to my world.” The posture of believers and people of good will to “keep a moral ethical grounding” “Justice, especially for the dispossessed, the aliens, the powerless” Pulled in different directions Eugene Peterson formulation: “There's the Jesus truth, and the Jesus way.” Called to be different things at different moments Name reality as best we can “Is it possible to be both prophetic and the force of unity at the same time?” Will there be a World War III in the next decade? Creative ways to develop resilience “A great chastening” “I feel both curious and really concerned.” When patience runs out “ I'm socially and humanly curious—and strangely a little hopeful for new frames of how we are with one another—but I am steeling myself for turbulence and violence at a time when it feels like we can't afford those things.” The shifting global stage The need for deep compassion and energy that doesn't stop listening or caring What rejuvenates and renews you in this moment? Being outside, natural beauty, artistic beauty, and staying actively in community with people who will stay reflective. Turning off the news National Gallery of Art's Impressionist exhibit (link) “For most of us, our day-to-day lives, even in the political realm, are not really driven primarily by what's happening with the presidency.” Jon Batiste “Healthy, substantive arguments that are not ad hominem” Are we living in the post-civility era? Peacemaking instead of polarization Developing civic antibodies and the need for regeneration and renewal “Something has gone deeply wrong in the white evangelical world” “ I'm completely fine with deconstruction as long as there's reconstruction.” “There's a great line that the ancient Greeks used, Bobby Kennedy used that in a speech of his in the late ‘60s, where he said that the task was to tame the savageness of man and to make gentle the life of this world.” Prayers for Donald Trump That the Spirit of God would overshadow Donald Trump and political leaders That “Not our will but Thy will be done.” For moral sensitivity ”I'll just be candid here. I have a sense that he's a, he is a person with a lot of brokenness in his life.” “We're part of a story, and there's an author. … But those chapters aren't the whole story.” A notorious chapter in American history   Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“The Good News is still good news.” “I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. …  The good news of Jesus Christ doesn't win and doesn't lose based on a political party winning or losing.” (Walter Kim, from this episode) How does evangelicalism relate to the dominant political powers of our world? In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes Walter Kim to Conversing. As the president of the National Association of Evangelicals and host of the Difficult Conversations podcast, Walter holds on to deep Christian orthodoxy alongside the most vigorous and necessary intellectual, personal, ethical, and theological reflections, offering a vision of leadership and spiritual-moral imagination to bolster the future of evangelicalism. Together they discuss: Christianity, pluralism, and polarization The fraught meaning of “evangelicalism” in America and what it means to be a “good news person” in this political moment The human impulse to wield power and the temptation of evangelicals to join with empire The Christian underpinnings of the American nation's founding and the necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism How evangelicals are retelling and recasting the story of the gospel in today's political climate About Walter Kim Walter Kim serves as the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, a role he's held since January of 2020. Previously, he was the pastor of Boston's historic Park Street Church, and has served other churches in Vancouver, British Columbia, and Charlottesville, Virginia, and as a campus chaplain at Yale University. He received a BA from Northwestern University, an MDiv from Regent College, and a PhD from Harvard University in Near Eastern languages and civilizations. He hosts the Difficult Conversations podcast. Show Notes Long-term faithfulness to the gospel in the maelstrom of challenges and difficulties ”My experience has been one of extremes. … There is the lived reality of polarization, at which I find often myself right in the centre.” ”Sober self-assessment … one should always, as a Christian, be self-suspicious: Am I compromising? … Am I responding in faith or out of fear?” “Purveyor of the good news in action.” “Our labour in Christ is not in vain … ultimately Christ remains Lord and Savior of all.” The word “evangelical” and the state of US evangelicalism What does it mean to be a “good news person”? World Evangelical Alliance General Assembly Laussane and a gathering of five thousand evangelicals from around the world “It's not a branding issue. It's a substance issue.” “Global church with a polycentric distribution of leadership and resources” “Whatever our maelstrom and vortex may be in America, it pales in comparison to what brothers and sisters are experiencing throughout the world.” “I'm very pro-democracy, and yet democracy has never been the necessary prerequisite for the good news of Jesus Christ to flourish. …  The good news of Jesus Christ doesn't win and doesn't lose based on a political party winning or losing.” Religious community vs “the other” How does the church relate to dominant powers? Image of God is not just an abstract idea “The democratization of the image of God to all people—not just to the rulers—was a profoundly prophetic statement.” Tower of Babel: A story not just about hubris, but about hoarding power and the ways political imperialism can use religion for its own purposes. “This is not a uniquely American problem. … This is a problem of humanity.” Evangelicals who have given themselves to empire Marring God's image and remaking God in our own image Pluralism and Christianity The capacity for self-reflection The Christian underpinnings of the American nation's founding, and the rise of Christian nationalism “What's different now is the pluralism.” The necessary ingredients for the rise of Christian nationalism Ingredient 1: The belief that America was founded as a Christian nation Ingredient 2: A sense or feeling of loss Ingredient 3: The answer to regaining what you lost is political Descriptive versus prescriptive: Was America founded as a Christian nation? Hope in the loving and just reign of God No national church: “living under their own vine and fig tree.” The reason we don't privilege Christianity in the Constitution Lilly Endowment project “The Good News is still good news.” “Retelling and recasting the story … as a message of hope.” “ This initiative is an opportunity for us to tell the beautiful story of Jesus, while not neglecting the ways that story has been marred.” Luke 4: Jesus's first public speech. “ The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor, freedom for the prisoner, sight for the blind, release for the oppressed. And to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“An attentive, earnest ear.” “We begin as listeners, that we begin as learners, that we begin as, as genuine, interested, empathetic people who are called to know and see and hear one another.” “Entering the room listening gave me an  opportunity to realize that I could just behold someone. Behold them visually, behold them audially, to sit in the wonder, the awe, the mystery, the difference of their life from mine and just absorb it in a way that was such a delight. It was also humbling. It also reminded me frequently of how much I had yet to learn, how much I really often didn't understand. …  It stretched my heart, it stretched my mind, it gave me an anticipation of growing into greater knowledge of people who were like (and also very unlike) me. And that felt like an invitation to adventure.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton offers a principle he learned from his parents: enter the room listening. He reflects on the purpose and usefulness of listening as a starting point; the character of Christian listening and what it means to be a “listening disciple” rather than a “speaking disciple”; what listening does for the speaker; some of the barriers to listening in our current cultural moment; and the observational, cognitive, and emotional benefits of this advice. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes How Mark's parents taught him from an early age to “enter the room listening.” Start by paying attention to others. The gift of listening and hospitality What listening does for the speaker “It gave the speaker permission to go on.” “We're in a crisis of conversation in our culture.” “An attentive, earnest ear.” The purpose and usefulness of listening as a starting point The character of Christian listening and what it means to be a “listening disciple” rather than a “speaking disciple” “ When I became a Christian, I was stunned by the fact that Jesus had so much to say and that I had so little clue about what it was that He was describing.” “ I was called to be a listening disciple, not a speaking disciple.” “We begin as listeners, that we begin as learners, that we begin as, as genuine, interested, empathetic people who are called to know and see and hear one another.” “What I'm bringing into the room only occasionally should be the thing of first importance. Instead, I think what I realized was that the thing of first importance was what was already happening in the room and that I was getting to join and find a place in it.” Some of the barriers to listening in our current cultural moment The observational, cognitive, and emotional benefits of entering the room listening Emotional attunement and “reading the room” Enhanced experience of the speaker and their words “And  I was just aware that I was at a feast. And that I would want to share in all that the room had to offer.” “I learned a lot about my parents by watching how my parents would listen to their guests and how they would treat their guests.” “Entering the room listening gave me an  opportunity to realize that I could just behold someone. Behold them visually, behold them audially, to sit in the wonder, the awe, the mystery, the difference of their life from mine and just absorb it in a way that was such a delight. It was also humbling. It also reminded me frequently of how much I had yet to learn, how much I really often didn't understand. …  It stretched my heart, it stretched my mind, it gave me an anticipation of growing into greater knowledge of people who were like (and also very unlike) me. And that felt like an invitation to adventure.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

”And then finally, word comes over the telegraph that the Emancipation Proclamation is in effect. Jubilation!“ (Jemar Tisby, from the episode) The African-American Christian tradition often celebrates an all-night Watch Night service on New Year's Eve. But where does this beautiful liturgical practice come from? It dates all the way back to December 31, 1862, on the eve of the Emancipation Proclamation going into effect the following day. In this episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton welcomes historian Jemar Tisby to reflect on the history of the New Year's Eve Watch Night service. Jemar Tisby is the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism. He is a public historian, speaker, and advocate, and is professor of history at Simmons College, a historically black college in Kentucky. Recent Books by Jemar Tisby The Spirit of Justice *Available now I Am the Spirit of Justice *Picture book releasing January 7, 2025 *Stories of the Spirit of Justice Middle-grade children's book releasing January 7, 2025 About Jemar Tisby Jemar Tisby (PhD, University of Mississippi) is the author of the new book The Spirit of Justice, the New York Times bestselling The Color of Compromise, and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements in the twentieth century and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically black college. Jemar is the founding co-host of the Pass the Mic podcast, and his writing has been featured in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Time, and the New York Times, among others. He is also a frequent commentator on outlets such as NPR and CNN, speaking nationwide on the topics of racial justice, US history, and Christianity. You can follow his work through his Substack newsletter, Footnotes, and on social media at @JemarTisby. Show Notes The Color of Compromise (available here)—the larger narrative of (Christian) America's racist history Watch Night Services—spending all night at church on New Year's Eve Black Christian tradition dating back to Emancipation Proclamation on December 31, 1862 ”The time between when Lincoln announced the proclamation, and when it went into effect on January 1st, 1863, was a time of tense anticipation and uncertainty.” “ What people were concerned about was, would the Confederates come back and make a deal with Lincoln?” “What I like to encourage people to do is put yourself back in that moment as best you can. You have been part of a group of people that have been enslaved since your feet first hit the shores of North America, that generations of your family members, friends, church members have been enslaved, have been enslaved, prayed for freedom, have tried to escape to freedom, have been punished for trying to escape or organize for freedom. And finally, in this massive conflagration called the Civil War, you get the president of the United States saying that you will be free at this certain time. And all of those hopes, all of those prayers, all of those dreams, all of those longings are concentrated in the moments before midnight.” ”And then finally, word comes over the telegraph that the Emancipation Proclamation is in effect. Jubilation!“ “It was in the context of a Christian religion. And so they were understanding this in the context of the Exodus and the Hebrews being freed from Pharaoh through God's intervention. And they're being freed from the pharaohs of the plantation to the promised land of freedom. And they sang spiritual songs and hymns. And ever since then, there's been a tradition of Black Christians gathering on New Year's Eve to have Watch Night service, to celebrate freedom, to anticipate the coming year and to ask for God's blessing.” “ May the joy of remembering the power of the Emancipation Proclamation help motivate us as we think about our work and our life in this coming year.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Each Advent, I do something unusual; I reread King Lear. Revisiting Shakespeare's dark exploration of the dissolution of family, friendship, personality, and nation has become part of my annual rhythm. That might seem odd, particularly during this most difficult of years: With short winter days, and so much national, international, and personal pain all around us, who needs more darkness? As a Christian, I do.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton shares about his annual ritual of re-reading William Shakespeare's King Lear, a practice to see darkness as well as see light. Mark reads from his December 23, 2020 essay in The Atlantic, and comments on King Lear's dark exploration of the dissolution of family and friendship, personality, and nation. Here Mark reflects on Advent as a season of waiting in the dark, before the light of Incarnation is known and beheld; the vulnerability and struggle of the human condition we all share—and King Lear's ability to reveal it; the value of staring directly into the darkness; and importance of finding a way to look into the darkness without being overwhelmed by it. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes “Why I Read King Lear Each Advent,” by Mark Labberton, The Atlantic, December 23, 2020 “Each Advent, I do something unusual; I reread King Lear. Revisiting Shakespeare's dark exploration of the dissolution of family, friendship, personality, and nation has become part of my annual rhythm. That might seem odd, particularly during this most difficult of years: With short winter days, and so much national, international, and personal pain all around us, who needs more darkness? As a Christian, I do.” “ Paying attention provokes and distills our humanity. But our distractibility is relentless, especially today, and it may be exceeded only by our capacity for denial.” The vulnerable pulse and impulse of being human “ My soul trembles as King Lear names and exposes human greediness for love, combustibly combined with the treacherousness of our own self interest. It all hits rather too closely to home, speaking not just to Shakespeare's time but to ours as well, speaking not just to Lear's struggles but to our own.” The shocking immediacy of King Lear, still felt 400 years later Hearkening back to the darkness of the COVID-19 pandemic “Resilient, sacrificing beauties of being human” Collective groaning, lament, and grief Seeing our troubles acutely, undistracted by hope ”The waiting and the darkness begin to give way to hope. And then Christmas is here.” “ We need to find a way to look into the darkness without being overwhelmed by it. To be able to stare in safety. Which brings me back to Lear. Being absorbed in the darkness of that story has taught me to breathe in the presence of darkness in our story. In other words, Lear helps me see, feel, and measure life differently.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this. … The hope is to survive. … It's really hard to think beyond that.” “We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide.” —Rev. Dr. Munther Issac, from the episode In the long history of conflict in the Middle East, both Jews and Palestinians have felt and continue to feel the existential threat of genocide. There remains so much to be spoken and heard about the experience of each side of this conflict. Today we're exploring a Palestinian perspective. Ministering in present-day Bethlehem, pastor, theologian, author, and advocate Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the state of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, now a year following Isaac's bracing and sobering Christmas sermon, which was graphically represented in a sculptural manger scene of “Christ in the Rubble”—a crèche depicting the newborn Jesus amid the debris of Palestinian concrete, wood, and rebar. Together they discuss the experience, emotions, and response of Palestinians after fourteen months of war; the Christian responsibility to speak against injustice of all kinds as an act of faith; the contours of loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies in the Sermon on the Mount; what theology can bring comfort in the midst of suffering; just war theory versus the justice of God; the hope for survival; and the Advent hope that emerges from darkness. A Message from Mark Labberton Since October 7 of 2023, the world has been gripped by the affairs that have been unfolding in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine. And the world is eager, anxious, fearful, angry, and divided over these affairs. All of this is extremely complicated. And yet, as a friend said to me once about apartheid (I'm paraphrasing): It's not just that it's complicated (which it is), it's actually also very simple: that we refuse to live as Christian people. By that, he was not trying to form any sort of reductionism. He was simply trying to say, Are we willing to live our faith? Are we willing to live out the identity of the people of God in the context of places of great division and violence and evil? The Middle East is fraught historically with these debates, and certainly since the of the nation-state of Israel in 1947, there has been this ongoing anguish and understandable existential crisis that Jews have experienced both inside Israel and around the world because of the ongoing anti-Semitic hatred that seems to exist in so many places and over such a long, long period of time. Today we have the privilege of hearing from one of the most outstanding Christian voices, a Palestinian Christian pastor, Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, who is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He is also academic dean of the Bethlehem Bible College and a director of the highly acclaimed and influential conference called Christ at the Checkpoint. Munther in this last year has been the voice of Christian pleading. Pleading for an end to the war, pleading for the end to violence, pleading for the end to all of the militarism that has decimated parts of Israel, but also, and even more profoundly, the decimation that has leveled approximately 70 percent of all Palestinian homes in Gaza. This kind of devastation, the loss of forty-five thousand lives and more in Palestine, has riveted the world's attention. And Munther has been a person who has consistently spoken out in places all around the United States and in various parts of the world, trying to call for an end to the war and for a practice of Christian identity that would seek to love our neighbours, as Jesus taught us in the Sermon on the Mount, including sometimes also loving our enemies. The reason for the interview with Munther today is because of the one-year anniversary of Something that occurred in their church in Bethlehem, a crèche with a small baby lying in the Palestinian rubble. Seeing and understanding and looking at Christmas through the lens of that great collision between the bringer of peace, Jesus Christ, and the reality of war. In the meantime, we have a great chance to welcome a brother in Christ ministering with many suffering people in the Middle East, Jew and Gentile, and certainly Palestinian Christians. About Munther Isaac Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He now pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences. Munther is passionate about issues related to Palestinian theology. He speaks locally and internationally and has published numerous articles on issues related to the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians and Palestinian theology, holistic mission, and reconciliation. His latest book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza (get your copy via Amazon or Eerdmans), will appear in March 2025. He is also the author of The Other Side of the Wall, From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth, An Introduction to Palestinian Theology (in Arabic), a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic), and more recently he has published a book on women's ordination in the church, also in Arabic. He is involved in many reconciliation and interfaith forums. He is also a Kairos Palestine board member. Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a master in biblical studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies. Munther is married to Rudaina, an architect, and together they have two boys: Karam and Zaid. Follow him on X @muntherisaac. Show Notes The complexity of conflict in Palestine, Israel, and the Middle East “It's very simple: We refuse to live as Christian people.” Get your copy of Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza via Amazon or Eerdmans “Christ in the Rubble”—the one-year anniversary Munther Isaac's Christmas sermon, “Christ Under the Rubble” Video A Letter from all churches in Bethlehem: “No war” “ I can't believe how used we got to the idea of children being killed.” “We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide that's taking place in front of the whole world to see.” Fourteen months of non-stop bombing “We're still feeling the anger.” ”We're still feeling the pain. We're still feeling the anger. And in a strange way, even more fearful of what is to come, given that it seems that to the world, Palestinians are less human.” “We couldn't go to church as normal.” “ It's our calling to continue as people of faith. To call for a change, and to call for things to be different in our world, even to call for accountability. And of course, I feel that my message should be first to the church, because I'm a Christian minister.  I don't like to lecture other religions about how they should respond. And I feel that the church could have done more.” Freedom to speak out: “You can't say these things in public.” Anti-Semitism and hatred toward Jews “ This kind of hatred and prejudice toward the Jews, which led to the horrors of the Holocaust, to me, it stems from the idea of ‘we're superior, we're better, we're entitled,' and blaming someone else. It comes from a position of righteousness and lack of humility. And certainly Jews have always been the victim of such hatred and blame.” “ At the same time, we as Palestinians cannot but wonder why is it us that we're paying the price for what happened on someone else's land? We're paying the price.” Loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies Jesus's politically charged environment Violence, just wWar theory, and “the justice of God” Using children as human shields for militants “ We cannot again bypass what Jesus was challenging us to do, even if it's not easy at all. It was Jesus who confirmed that loving God and loving neighbour summarizes everything. It wasn't like I came up with this novel thing, but I think we somehow found other ways to define what it means to be a Christian.” “What theology would bring comfort?” Matthew 25, judgment, and ministering to Jesus through “the least of these” “ ‘Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.' So he's clearly talking about victims of unjust structures, those who are thirsty for justice, those who are hungry.” Hopes for peace “I'm going to be very real, Mark. I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this.” “They estimate that 70 percent of the homes of two million people are destroyed.” Violence and destruction connected to a biblical argument about the legitimacy of Palestinian genocide The vulnerability of Israel and the vulnerability of Palestine “ And it's important to say these things. Because if we don't say them, then we … leave the task of imagination to those who are radical—to the extremists and exclusivists.” Munther Isaac's thoughts on the Zionist movement Advent reflections on the darkness at the centre, from which hope and life might emerge Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“We learn the most from those who came before us, not by gazing up at them uncritically or down on them condescendingly, but by looking them in the eye. And taking their true measure as human beings, not as gods.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting historian John Meacham) “When does the revolution end? … It doesn't.” (Daniel Gidick on Thomas Jefferson) “This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.” (Daniel Gidick, quoting Franklin D. Roosevelt) Teaching high school history in our current social and political moment represents a formative transmission of the past to the present. Not to mention that a high school level US history course is often one of the final steps toward citizenship and public participation for young adults entering American society. In this episode, Mark welcomes high school history teacher Daniel Gidick for a discussion of how the teaching of history and the education of young people influence human society. Together they discuss the connection between history and contemporary society; the stories of conflict and human interest; the joy and challenge of secondary education; the politicalization of high school history; how students adopt a connection to the past; the importance of fact-based history teaching; how history affects American democratic citizenship; and the personal connection Daniel has with the study of United States history. About Daniel Giddick Daniel Gidick teaches US history and government at Albemarle High School in Charlottesville, Virginia. Show Notes US history and the constant turmoil of the social landscape History as “stories of human conflict and human interest” Inspirational historical figures The depth and impact of high school teachers on young people “Battlefield breakfast” “The last teacher they'll have before they take on the greatest title that you can have (other than parent), which is citizen.” “A parodied speech of Eisenhower's D-Day speech” to motivate test takers Historical documents The politicization of high school history Jon Meacham: “We learn the most from those who came before us, not by gazing up at them uncritically or down on them condescendingly, but by looking them in the eye. And taking their true measure as human beings, not as gods.” American Civil War State versus national power “When in doubt, the answer of the division of history is: slavery.” The New Deal: “The pivot point of the twentieth century.” Immigration How do students feel about America? “Lincoln has to be dead by Christmas.” “When does the revolution end? … It doesn't.” A connection to the past, finding relevance What is your theory of history? Fact-based historical teaching How history affects American democratic citizenship An inflection point in American history “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” (FDR) “This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.” (FDR) “One of the points of reflecting on the past is to prepare us for action in the present.” (Jon Meacham) Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“In October 1975, I was shot six times. And while I was on the hospital gurney, doctor told me I was going to die. I heard a very clear voice that spoke to me and said, you're not going to die. You're going to be a chaplain at San Quentin prison.” (Chaplain Earl Smith) Chaplain Earl Smith believes that ministry to the incarcerated is about so much more than rehabilitation. It's about regeneration. Using the power of his own story of transformation from gang member to pastor, Chaplain Smith has maintained a faithful presence and witness for many decades of pastoral service to the incarcerated at San Quentin Rehabilitation Center, and now to professional athletes (including the Golden State Warriors, San Francisco 49ers, and the San Francisco Giants). Today on the show Mark Labberton and Chaplain Earl Smith discuss the moral and spiritual factors of prison chaplaincy and ministry for those on death row; the meaning of freedom and education; how he ministered to the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood; the difference that positive mentoring and coaching makes in young people's lives; and the transformative power of the gospel to go beyond rehabilitation to regeneration. About Earl Smith Born and reared in Stockton, California, the cycle of events in Earl's life came to a head in 1975 when he was shot 6 times while living the life of a minor gangster. Although expected to die, Earl's father's faith, prayers, and love seemed to bring him through. The words of his father have motivated him, since that event, “you are a rebel, but you are God's rebel, and God is going to use you to His glory.” In 1983, at the age of 27, Earl became the youngest person ever hired as a Protestant Chaplain by the California Department of Corrections. He is author of Death Row Chaplain: Unbelievable True Stories from America's Most Notorious Prison. Chaplain Smith currently serves as the Chief Executive Officer for Franklin Home, a Transition Living/Reentry Home for men and is the Team Pastor for the San Francisco 49ers' and the Golden State Warriors. From 1998 to 2006 Chaplain Smith was the Chapel Leader for the San Francisco Giants. Chaplain Smith has ministered to teams playing in NFL Super Bowls, MLB World Series and NBA Championships. In 2000, Chaplain Smith was recognized as the National Correctional Chaplain of the Year. Chaplain Smith has appeared on numerous broadcasts, including HBO, CNN, The 700 Club, Trinity Broadcasting Network and The History Channel. Earl has been featured in Christianity Today, Ebony, Guidepost, Ministry Today, Newsweek, People's Weekly, The African Americans and Time. Show Notes Get your copy of Death Row Chaplain: Unbelievable True Stories from America's Most Notorious Prison How Mark and Chaplain Smith met The value of education “I had to stop my education because of the execution schedule at San Quentin.” How Earl Smith got into prison chaplaincy “In October 1975, I was shot six times. And while I was on the hospital gurney, doctor told me I was going to die. I heard a very clear voice that spoke to me and said, you're not going to die. You're going to be a chaplain at San Quentin prison.” What San Quentin prison is like “We used to call San Quentin the Bastille by the Bay. The thing that really stood out for me was the fact that for 13 of the first 16 months I was there, the prison was locked down. The day I interviewed, two people were killed, so they stopped my interview twice. So I understood where I was. I understood the context of confinement. What I also went in there understanding was. It was not about rehabilitation. It was about regeneration.” “I believe that that's part of chaplaincy is not to allow the confines of the wall to dictate who you are.” A sense of liberty Fear and reality Earl Smith's ministry to the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood How faith shaped a capacity to be free from fear for the sake of love Mass incarceration and the new Jim Crow The drug epidemic and its impact on mass incarceration “How can you help us prepare these guys to come home?” “Whether you're on condemned role, if you have a life without the possibility of parole, or life sentence, or whatever it is, my job is still to share the same gospel message.” “Present your body as a living sacrifice.” Pastoral care in the prison system Calling prisoners by their first names instead of their numbers “When you've done it onto the least of these, you've done it to me, so there's a value in your presence.” Chaplaincy to professional athletes “The states that have the largest prison systems are also the states that send the most professional athletes in the pro sports.” Golden State Warriors and San Francisco 49ers The difference that positive mentoring and coaching makes in young people's lives “Every man wants someone to acknowledge there's something positive in what you're doing.” “They May Know Your Number, But God Knows Your Name” (Clifton Jansky, country western singer) God's way of paying attention to us; “how vested God is in our pursuit of being fully human” (reference to Marilynne Robinson) Performance and identity (reference to Ben Houltberg) Jerry Rice, #80 and “who wore the number before you?” Fellowship of Christian Athletes and Athletes in Action “God is a relational God. … Sports is relational.” When did chaplaincy in sports become a thing? Pat Ritchie's chaplaincy Understanding the value and difference chaplaincy makes Documentary and Film Adaptation: Death Row Chaplain “A story not of rehabilitation but regeneration” “That's really what the story is about. Some of my yesterday, some of my today. And what I believe to be my tomorrow.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Things had radically changed. … They had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to a concrete hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day. Here Mark reflects on the emotional and psychological difficulties he was going through, the meaning and beauty of friendship, how every dish of a Thanksgiving dinner is an act of hope and community, and how hospitality and generosity can uplift every member of a community. If you or anyone you know is struggling with depression or considering suicide, there is help available now. Simply call or text 988 to speak with someone right away, share what you're going through, and get the support you need. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes A story about Thanksgiving Day many years ago, during Mark Labberton's master of divinity degree at Fuller Seminary “… not just overwhelmed, but really undone” “ … the possibility of ending my life …” Every Thanksgiving dish as an act of hope and community Beauty of friendship A magnificent extravaganza Sharing not just food but hope “Things had radically changed. And that in fact they had, they had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life.” “For me, Thanksgiving Day holds this deep and pensive awareness that Thanksgiving doesn't always come easy, that often it's a difficult act, that it involves things that are sometimes impossible for certain people to carry. And at the same time, it's possible for other people to carry them in our place, which is what these friends did for me that day.” If you're feeling despair, seek professional help. Call or text 988 for an immediate response with a counsellor. Seek community. “Whether you're in darkness or in light, whether your heart feels full of gratitude or whether it may not, I just hope that you'll be aware that God is with you, that you are not alone, that there are people that want to support you and help you, and that there are people that know you who would welcome you into a circle of celebration and gratitude today.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“We've just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” (David Brooks, from the episode) There's a growing chasm that divides the affluent and non-affluent in American society, and it's perhaps most pronounced in higher education. The elite meritocracy suggests that we should reward individual ability, ambition, and accomplishment. But what is “merit” anyway? What is “ability”? And how do they factor in our idea of “a successful life”? In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for a conversation about elite meritocracy in higher education. Together they discuss the meaning of merit, ability, success, and their roles in a good human life; hereditary aristocracy and the populist backlash; power and overemphasis on intelligence; the importance of curiosity for growing and becoming a better person; the value of cognitive ability over character and other skills; the centrality of desire in human life; moral formation and the gospel according to Ted Lasso; ambition versus aspiration; and the impact of meritocracy on the political life and policy. About David Brooks David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project. Show Notes “How the Ivy League Broke America” (via The Atlantic) “The meritocracy isn't working. We need something new.” Money and the elite meritocracy “Every nation has a social ideal. And for the first half of the twentieth century, and the last half of the nineteenth century, our social ideal was the well-bred man.” (e.g., Theodore Roosevelt to Franklin Roosevelt to George H.W. Bush) “Rich people rigged the system.” “Now, if you come from a family in the top 1 percent, your odds of going to an Ivy League school are seventy-seven times higher than if you come from a poor family. And a lot of schools around the country have more students in the top 1 percent than the bottom 60 percent.” “We now have this chasm between the children of the affluent and the children of the non-affluent.” Shocking stats: “By eighth grade, children of the affluent are four grade levels higher than children of the non-affluent. People who grew up in college-educated homes live eight years longer than people in high-school-educated homes, they're five times less likely to die of opioid addiction, they're twenty-two times less likely to have children out of wedlock, they're two and a half times less likely to say they have no close friends.” “We've just created a hereditary aristocracy in this society, and it has created a populist backlash.” Too much power What is “merit”? How do you define “merit”? Who has “ability”? IQ is not a good indicator of merit. “Our meritocracy measures people by how well they do in school. The definition of intelligence is academic ability.” “What's the correlation between getting good grades in school and doing well in life? The correlation is basically zero.” “We measure people by how they do in one setting, which is the classroom. And then we use that to declare how prepared they are for another setting, which is the workplace.” “Augustine said, we're primarily not thinking creatures, we're primarily desiring creatures.” Leon Kass (University of Chicago): “What defines a person is the ruling passion of their soul.” “We become what we love.” Predominant emotion of fear Curiosity, the love of learning, and getting better every day “You're plenty smart. You're just not curious.” Tina Turner's memoir, discovering her voice and self-respect. “What matters is being a grower, the ability to keep growing.” “Getting old takes guts.” (David Brooks's eighty-nine-year-old father) A sense of purpose The drive for the future, to be bold Henry Delacroix and the genius of America to drive for boldness, hard work, growth, and energy Moral materialism Vincent van Gogh said, “I'm in it with all my heart.” Paul Cézanne and Émile Zola, L'Oeuvre Yo-Yo Ma, cello, elite performance, and passionate humanity: “I'm a people person.” “Look at these creatures. They're amazing!” Ordinary people in ordinary circumstances “Social intelligence” is not really intelligence—it's an emotional capacity. Individuals and teams “What makes a good team? It's not the IQ of the individuals. It's the ability to take turns while talking. It's the ability to volley ideas and to feed into a common funnel of thought.” Project Based Learning Most Likely to Succeed (documentary, High Tech High) The Hour Between Dog and Wolf John Coates Self-awareness and adeptness reading your own body Emotional agility “The mind is built for motion. That what we do in life, we don't solve problems, we navigate complex terrains.” “We're all pilgrims. And we're all searching for the journey that will transform us. And so it's, the mind is not this computer designed to solve problems. The mind has helped us navigate through a space. And if we do it well, then we become transformed.” Applying meritocracy to the 2024 election “If you segregate your society on IQ, You're inherently segregating on elitist grounds.” “The rebellion that is Donald Trump.” Jesus's form of selection—“When Jesus was selecting his twelve, he didn't give them all a bunch of standardized tests. … He saw that each person was made in the image of God.” “And to me, what (frankly) the Christian world offers us is a re centring of the human person.” Controlling the passions of your heart Christian humanism Ecce Homo Rene Girard and mimetic desire Ambition vs. Aspiration The gospel of Ted Lasso and David Brooks's favorite definition of moral formation: “My goal is to make these fellas better versions of themselves on and off the field.” *Still Evangelical* (essay by Mark Labberton) “Am I yet evangelical?” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Our increasingly reactionary political environment doesn't lend itself to nuanced, patient understanding of events like the 2024 re-election of Donald Trump. What historical and philosophical resources can help us gain insight and wisdom? How can we successfully know and encounter each other in such a divided society? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (columnist, New York Times) for reflections about the 2024 General Election, the state of American politics, and how we got here. Together they discuss the multi-generational class divide; sources of alienation and distrust; how loss of faith and meaning influences political life; intellectual virtues of courage, firmness, humility, and flexibility; what it means to be a Republican in exile; the capacity for self-awareness and self-critique; and much more. About David Brooks David Brooks is an op-ed columnist for the New York Times. His latest book is How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen (Random House, 2023). He is also the author of The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life, Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There, The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project. Show Notes A spiritual or emotional crisis we're working out in American politics Should we blame inflation and economic factors? (Biden's Covid-19 overstimulation) Class divide is a generational thing High-school-educated voters are increasingly alienated from the Democratic Party Alienation and distrust is a multi-decade process Loss of Faith, Loss of Meaning, and the “Death of God” An exiled Republican “Confessions of a Republican Exile” (via The Atlantic): ”A longtime conservative, alienated by Trumpism, tries to come to terms with life on the moderate edge of the Democratic Party.” “I'm a Whig.” (”Abraham Lincoln was a Whig.”) Edmund Burke and epistemological modesty—”don't revolutionize something you don't understand.” You should operate on society in the way you operate on your father, with care. Alexander Hamilton Whig tradition is unrepresented in contemporary American politics How David Brooks waffles between Democrat and Republican Isaiah Berlin: “At the rightward edge of the leftward tendency.” “The capacity for self-critique Matt Yglesias Humble, introspective, and “how did we get so out of touch?” Racism and sexism are not what's driving Trump voters “In my opinion, Donald Trump is wrong answer to the right question.” Mark Noll and America's use of the Bible: un-self-aware and un-self-critical Why is there more capacity for self-critique on the Democratic Jonathan Rauch and “Epistemic Regime”: includes media, universities, scientific research, review process, etc. “There's still a core of people who believe ‘if the evidence says x, you should say y.'” “The greatest victory in the history of the world.” Intellectual Virtues: Courage, Firmness, Flexibility “Reality is constantly going to surprise you.” 1980s Republicanism was more intellectually sophisticated Conservative book publishing *Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change* by Jonah Goldberg How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David Brooks “The Stacking Stereotype” “A redistribution of respect” (away from large swaths of America and to elites) “The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials.” “… almost no Trump supporters.” “If you tell 51% of the country ‘Your voices don't matter,' people are going to get upset.” America changing beneath us High level of spiritual and moral authority and low level of intellectual confidence The moral teaching of the New Testament “People are unitary wholes.” “I became a Christian around 2013.” “Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don.” C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien's Christianity “What it's like to be in the claustrophobic mind of a narcissist.” Aggression: a joyless way to see the faith What is needed? “I was a 50-year-old atheist.” Chris Wiman (My Bright Abyss: Meditations of a Modern Believer): materialistic categories couldn't explain the world “If they made me pope of the evangelicals, which is a job that makes me shudder…” “Be not afraid.” “The world just loves a human being that's trying to act like Jesus.” David Brooks's teaching at Yale The Long Loneliness: The Autobiography of the Legendary Catholic Social Activist by Dorothy Day Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

How should we respond to the anxiety, fear, and catastrophizing of Election Day? Is there an alternative to fight, flight, or freeze? Can people of Christian conviction stand firm, grounded in faith, leaning into the storm? In this special Election Day episode of Conversing, Mark Labberton welcomes Peter Wehner (columnist, the New York Times, The Atlantic) and David Goatley (president, Fuller Seminary) to make sense of the moral, emotional, and spiritual factors operating in the 2024 US general election. Together they discuss the emotional response to political media; faithful alternatives to the overabundance of fear, anxiety, and catastrophizing; how the threat of affective polarization divides families and friendships; biblical attitudes toward troubling or frightening political and cultural events; how to respond to vitriol, anger, cynicism, hate, and manipulative language; and how the church can help restore trust and be a faithful witness, standing firm through the political storm. About Peter Wehner Peter Wehner, an American essayist, is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He writes on politics and political ideas, on faith and culture, on foreign policy, sports, and friendships. Wehner served in three presidential administrations, including as deputy director of presidential speechwriting for President George W. Bush. Later, he served as the director of the Office of Strategic Initiatives. Wehner, a graduate of the University of Washington, is editor or author of six books, including The Death of Politics: How to Heal Our Frayed Republic After Trump, which the New York Times called “a model of conscientious political engagements.” Married and the father of three, he lives in McLean, Virginia. About David Goatley David Emmanuel Goatley is president of Fuller Seminary. Prior to his appointment in January 2023, he served as the associate dean for academic and vocational formation, Ruth W. and A. Morris Williams Jr. Research Professor of Theology and Christian Ministry, and director of the Office of Black Church Studies at Duke Divinity School. Ordained in the National Baptist Convention, USA, he served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Campbellsville, Kentucky, for nine years (1986–1995). In addition to his articles, essays, and book chapters, Goatley is the author of Were You There? Godforsakenness in Slave Religion and A Divine Assignment: The Missiology of Wendell Clay Somerville, as well as the editor of Black Religion, Black Theology: Collected Essays of J. Deotis Roberts. His current research focuses on flourishing in ministry and thriving congregations, most recently working on projects funded by the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment. Show Notes Anxiety, Uncertainty, and Worst-Case Scenarios The regular appeal to “the most important election of our lifetimes” Assuming the worst about others “We are at a fork in the road for a certain kind of vision of who we want to be.” “As an African American, many of us always live in the crosswinds.” Living with fragility, vulnerability, and uncertainty Hymn: “On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand” Anger, Antipathy, and Fear Passions and beliefs—and an electoral system built to amplify those “They're more amplified than in the past.” Families and friendships that divide over politics. Feeling like we “share a continent but not a country” Affective polarization—”There's a sense of the other side being an enemy.” Catastrophizing Recalibrate, reset, and rethink Hoping that calmer heads prevail Church splintering and aligning with partisan politics “God will use all things—not that God intends all things.” The political balance wheel “Fear is not a Christian state of mind.” “Hope is based on something real.” “The long game for believers is to hearken back to the early church and remember that Jesus is Lord, and the emperor is not.” Political toxicity that infects the household of faith “We have to do all that we can to live with peacefully with each other.” Vitriol, hubris “It's important to name things. … If you don't name them—if you try to hide them—then you can't begin the process of healing.” “Faith is subordinate to other factors that they're not aware of.” The Era of Fear: What informs our fears? What can we do about our fears? Fear of the Lord that sets us free Firmness as an alternative to fighting or fleeing “Valuing the vibrant diversity of God” “Expand your reading.” Breaking out of conformity and homogeneity “Meeting the moment”: Inflection points in a human life or a society's life—a moment for leaders to rise up, speak, and shape Example: Winston Churchill and Great Britain pre–World War II (from pariah to prime minister) Example: Jonathan Haidt's The Anxious Generation and the agenda to make schools phone-free These aren't the conditions for human flourishing “We've got to be faithful. We may not be successful.” Cultivating a political garden to prepare the soil for shared core values of decency, respect, fairness “… what we have loved, / Others will love, and we will teach them how” (William Wordsworth, “The Prelude”) Loving the right things Voting “Complicating my view of the world.” “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” Before voting: “A prayer to submit myself to the will of God.” “Tell me how you came to believe what you believe … over time it can create a feeling of trust” “What don't I see? What about my own blindspots?” Stunned by the profundity and sobering word that “God will not be mocked” Expressing convictions through voting Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

The history of racism has a parallel history of resistance. Courageous women and men have responded to injustice with lives of faith, hope, and love—bearing witness to the spirit of justice. They have inspiring stories we can learn from today. But who is willing to tell those stories? And who is willing to hear them? In this episode Mark Labberton welcomes historian Jemar Tisby to discuss his new book, The Spirit of Justice—a summoning of over fifty courageous individuals who resisted racism throughout US history. The book is a beautiful quilt of stories and profiles, stitched together through Tisby's contemporary cultural analysis. Jemar Tisby is the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism. He is a public historian, speaker, and advocate, and is professor of history at Simmons College, a historically black college in Kentucky. Recent Books by Jemar Tisby The Spirit of Justice *Available now I Am the Spirit of Justice *Picture book releasing January 7, 2025 *Stories of the Spirit of Justice Middle-grade children's book releasing January 7, 2025 About Jemar Tisby Jemar Tisby (PhD, University of Mississippi) is the author of new book The Spirit of Justice, New York Times bestselling The Color of Compromise, and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements in the twentieth century and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically black college. Jemar is the founding co-host of the Pass the Mic podcast, and his writing has been featured in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Time, and the New York Times, among others. He is also a frequent commentator on outlets such as NPR and CNN, speaking nationwide on the topics of racial justice, US history, and Christianity. You can follow his work through his Substack newsletter, Footnotes, and on social media at @JemarTisby. Show Notes The Color of Compromise (available here)*—*the larger narrative of (Christian) America's racist history Myrlie Evers Williams on her husband Medgar Evers's death Myrlie Evers Williams: “I see something today that I hoped I would never see again. That is prejudice, hatred, negativism that comes from the highest points across America. She told us then with the candor that comes with old age, she said, and I found myself asking Medgar in the conversations that I have with him. Is this really what's happening again in this country? And asking for guidance because I don't mind admitting this to the press, I'm a little weary at this point.” Fighting for justice “Black people are born into a situation in which we are forced to defend, assert, and constantly so, our humanity. And that is in the midst of constant attacks on our humanity, big and small, whether it is the vicarious suffering that we see when there's another cell phone video of a black person being brutalized by law enforcement, whether it is, you know, We all have memories of the first time we were called the N word, uh, whether it is going into the workplace and wondering if you didn't get that raise or you were passed over for that promotion, if it had anything to do with the color of your skin, even subconsciously. And so we are born into a situation in which resistance is a daily reality.” Sister Thea Bowman, Black Catholic Mississippian Nun “Her holiness leaps off the page.” Simmons College, Louisville, KY Jim Crow Era: “How do you tell the story of the Jim Crow era without centering the white supremacy, the violence, the segregation—How do you center black people in that era?” William J. Simmons, Men of the Mark The history of Simmons College as an HBCU Ida B. Wells Harriet Tubman (Araminta Ross) and the Underground Railroad Nursing, training, service, and freeing the slaves Combahee River Raid (led by Harriet Tubman)—she received a full military burial “We need the spirit of justice because injustice is present.” Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn “And in all kinds of ways, black people chose to fight their oppression.” Romans 5: Suffering produces perseverance. Perseverance produces character. Character produces hope and hope does not put us to shame. “Hope is a decision.” (Archbishop Desmond Tutu) “They chose hope.” William Pannell, Fuller Theological Seminary—My Friend the Enemy (1968) Rodney King and “the coming race war” William Pannell's impact on Mark Labberton Film: The Gospel According to Bill Pannell “When you see what's really motivating people, what's really stirring up fear and hatred, which can lead also to violence. It's still around race.” Racial anxiety and politics: “This is no longer a white man's America.” The Holy Spirit “I'm getting so Pentecostal in these days.” Psalm 11:7: “God is a God of righteousness. God loves justice.” “When I think about what exactly the spirit of justice is, I think it's the fingerprint of God on every human being made in God's image that says I'm worthy of dignity, respect, and the freedom to flourish. And when that is taken away from me because of oppression and injustice, I have this spirit within me to resist.” “The spirit of justice gives us that resilience, that strength to become determined all over again. This is not a power that we find within ourselves to get back up again every time the backlash pushes us back. It is a power. the supernatural power, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, that also empowers us for the work of justice.” How to make a difference The variety of black experiences Jemar Tisby's first picture book and young reader's edition Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Sometimes I'm not sure even believers understand the power that exists in their sheer humanity. That there really is something that God has placed on the inside of us that when we come to some form of collected agreement—not uniformity, but just some kind of collective unity around something—that really wonderful, great, powerful things can happen.” (Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson) Growing up in Oakland, California, Jackie Thompson didn't know that sociologists were referring to her neighbourhood as “The Killing Zone”—a part of the city with the highest concentration of homicides. Now, as senior pastor of Allen Temple Baptist Church, the Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson continues to serve the Oakland community throughout its ups and downs, offering a Jesus-centred vision of justice and hope, present to the pain and suffering of the city. In this episode Thompson joins Mark Labberton for a discussion of her local pastoral ministry in Oakland, California. Together they discuss Jackie's life and experience as a one of the first women to be appointed senior pastor in a black Baptist church; her college experience at UC Berkeley; what it means to respond to the call of social justice and biblical faith; the blessings and challenges of pastoring a large black church in Oakland; how to centre local ministry on the pain and suffering of a community; the temptation of power; the political season and candidacy of Kamala Harris; and how to “fight for a vision of the kingdom of God where there is enough for everybody.” About Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson Described as a transformational preacher, dynamic leader and ministry trailblazer, Rev. Dr. Jacqueline A. Thompson is an inspiring example of what God can do with a life committed to the call. She currently serves as the beloved senior pastor of the Allen Temple Baptist Church in her native Oakland, California. Her 2019 election made history nationwide as the first woman called to serve as senior pastor of this historic African American Baptist Church founded in 1919. Before being called in this capacity, Thompson served as the assistant pastor at Allen Temple and as youth minister at Shiloh Baptist Church of Washington, DC, the first woman to serve in both capacities. Committed to excellence in scholarship, Thompson received her bachelor of arts in political economics from the University of California, Berkeley, and a master of divinity from Howard University School of Divinity in Washington, DC. While at Howard, she received the Nannie Helen Burroughs Award for Academic Excellence and the Henry G. Maynard Award for Excellence in Preaching and Ministry. Believing in the importance of both orthodoxy and orthopraxy, Thompson continued her studies at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, where she was awarded the doctor of ministry degree in African American church leadership. She is a member of the NAACP and Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated. Her activism and leadership have been recognized by various chapters honouring her with the Community Excellence Award and as Distinguished Woman of the Year. Among other honours, Thompson has been inducted into the distinguished Morehouse College Martin Luther King Jr. Board of Preachers. Thompson is a gifted preacher, administrator, and published author travelling and ministering extensively nationally and internationally, often in arenas previously unchartered by women. In addition, she has been called on by local and national print and electronic media as an opinion leader to offer perspective and hope amid the pressing issues of the day. She is currently on the teaching staff of the Berkeley School of Theology in the area of public theology and preaching. Her mission is to see transformation in the lives of others and is humbled by every opportunity to serve. Show Notes Learn more about Allen Temple Baptist Church: https://www.allen-temple.org/ Growing up in “The Killing Zone” in Oakland, CA “There was a really big difference in how we look at something and describe it and how the people who experienced it describe it themselves.” “At twelve years old, we started visiting all kinds of churches in Oakland, right? So I've been to every church just about storefront, larger church, every one.” The experience of Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland Matthew 28:18–20 Dr. J. Alfred Smith—one of the most beloved heralded African American pastors in the United States Restlessness Youth ministry in Oakland Social justice and biblical faith The power of a pastor: “I miss your voice in the choir!” Choir for young adults The ministry of Dr. J. Alfred Smith—”God was absolutely central and primary, and the point of action that held everything together. And then you had this galaxy of every kind of life experience that was being represented, talked about, honoured, celebrated from children to all, all generations and ages, but also women.” “Pastoring was never something I wanted to do. … But what happened was life.” “She's a very dignified, prideful black mom. … And she said, ‘I don't recognize you before.'” Trailblazing as the first female assistant pastor of a major black baptist church An imaginative tour of Oakland Oakland is a tale of two cities—the hills and the flatlands Shifting the narrative about Oakland, violence, justice, and power. “I believe part of our responsibility, particularly at Allen Temple, but not just Allen Temple, as people of faith, as people who say that we are followers of the way and that we believe in Jesus—that we call power structures to account.” “Fight for a vision of the kingdom of God where there is enough for everybody.” Walter Brueggemann: “The numbness that can come with royal consciousness” Remaining connected to the epicentre of people's pain Joshua crossing the Jordan: twelve stones to build a memorial Good Samaritan on the Jericho road The history of Oakland's ups and downs Washington, DC, and the power centre of the world “There are no permanent friends. There are no permanent enemies. They're just permanent interests. … What that taught me is that the players around the table will change. As long as the interest in the centre of the table stays the same, it does not matter how the players change.” Oakland as microcosm for other urban cities “The temptation is always power.” “I try and keep the centre of the cross with the vertical and the horizontal meet before the eyes of the people in a way that they can see it, that they can grab hold to it, and they can decide how that, that's how will they, they centre and position themselves in there for the cause of the kingdom.” “What is the burden that you feel like you're primarily carrying?” “Sometimes I'm not sure even believers understand the power that exists in their sheer humanity. That there really is something that God has placed on the inside of us that when we come to some form of collected agreement—not uniformity, but just some kind of collective unity around something—that really wonderful, great, powerful things can happen.” Comparing Obama's nomination to Kamala's nomination Focusing on the needs of the people Thompson's preaching as centring the pain on a deeper centre of Jesus Christ Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

When it comes to voting, how should we balance character and policy? “If I'm voting for a politician,” journalist David French suggests, “I have a test. One is: Do they have the character necessary for the job? And the higher the position they're seeking, the more character that is necessary. And number two: Do they broadly agree with me on the most important policies?” In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes journalist David French (opinion columnist for the New York Times; formerly The Atlantic, The Dispatch, and National Review) for a discussion of character, policy, and principles for faithful, virtuous engagement in polarized American politics. French's commitment to Christian faith, moral character, and reasoned policy has emerged from his experience as a former commercial lawyer, military lawyer, and former president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. A political conservative, French has throughout his career been an advocate for First Amendment rights, pro-life individuals and organizations, and the ideals of democracy. He describes himself as “an evangelical conservative who believes strongly in a classical liberal, pluralistic vision of American democracy.” Together, Mark and David discuss his Christian upbringing; his personal partisan commitments; the importance of character in party politics; the importance of nuanced and reasoned policy; why he's voting for Kamala Harris in order to save conservative politics; two Bible verses for this election season; how to respond to our culture of fear; and how to secure a more courageous, loving, and humble politics. About David French David French is an opinion columnist for the New York Times, and previously wrote for The Atlantic, The Dispatch, and National Review. He is a New York Times bestselling author of Divided We Fall: America's Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation. He describes himself as “an evangelical conservative who believes strongly in a classical liberal, pluralistic vision of American democracy.” He is a graduate of Harvard Law School, the past president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, and a former lecturer at Cornell Law School. He has served as a senior counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice and the Alliance Defending Freedom. David is a former major in the United States Army Reserve. In 2007, he deployed to Iraq, serving in Diyala Province as Squadron Judge Advocate for the 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, where he was awarded the Bronze Star. Show Notes Divided We Fall: America's Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation “I was a First Amendment litigator with a writing hobby.” Background in the Acapella Churches of Christ: a Restoration Movement from the early-19th century “It turned into something kind of separatist, sectarian, and ferociously legalistic.” “I grew up with a real grounding. grounding and reading the Bible, which actually, ironically enough, was the seed of me leaving the church of Christ.” “I was a Cold War conservative and a conservative Christian. And they were related, but not, but they weren't inextricably tied together. So for me, my, you know, ideology was downstream of my faith, but I didn't think that my ideology was the inevitable result of my faith.” Pro-Life Activism Representing pro-life individuals Existential clash: the confrontation between the Soviet Union and the United States Why David French is voting for Kamala Harris in order to save conservative politics “My party loyalty has always been related to two things. One is the ideology of the party and the other one is the character of the party. And the party leaders and the people that I vote for, I've always had a character test and an ideological test.” Bad character and bad policy—”why would I be attached to that? There's no claim on my loyalty there.” The importance of character “If the conservative perspective that I have wants to have any purchase in American politics, MAGA has to lose. Donald Trump has to lose.” Federalism: a practical understanding that smaller government is better. Republican Party increasingly embracing a pro-choice platform “If you're going to have a healthy two party system, the distinctions should be around good people of high character approaching policy solutions from different perspectives.” “One of these parties has sort of left the norms of American. political engagement.” “I voted for Mitt Romney more than Mitt Romney's probably voted for Mitt Romney.” “If I'm voting for a politician, I have a test. One is: Do they have the character necessary for the job? And the higher the position they're seeking, the more character that is necessary. And number two: Do they broadly agree with me on the most important policies?” “I have very little patience for those people who say I'm somehow not a Christian for voting for a pro-choice candidate. When they're voting for a pro-choice candidate who's been adjudicated a sex abuser, that is difficult for me to discern how that is a more Christian stance.” Clear, independent thinker Logical reasoning and courageous statements A living faith by which we think through ideas “There's a fine line between stubbornness and courage.” “In these last 10 years, I've really had to ask myself: Who are you really?” David French's parents' example of faith and virtue Learning from World War I and World War II history “Some of the worst things that have happened in American history have happened because people didn't want to do hard things.” “I think the sanctification process, though, is difficult. It means that you're being exposed to constantly your own sin is being exposed to yourself.” Mark asks: “What do you want Christian people, thoughtful, committed, curious, uncertain, tenuous Christian people to, to do between now and the election?” 2 Timothy 1:7—“God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, of love, and of sound mind.” Micah 6:8—”What does the Lord require of you, O man? What is good? To act justly, to love kindness, and to walk humbly before the Lord your God.” Ideological diversity: be curious, seek disagreement “If you just show affection for people and curiosity towards their views, anger tends to drain out of a room.” “College students are full of anxiety about conflict.” “Fear not.” The A Team—arming up for battle “And they find out that a lot of these folks that they were taught were going to be their enemies are actually just super kind, normal folks.” “They're equipping them to fight, not to love their neighbor, fight their neighbor, not love their neighbor.” Mark asks: “What handles would you give people in living in a fear dominated moment in American history?” “In receiving anger and fear, do not try to build up a bulletproof thick skin. … Because you know what that does? It often walls you off from legitimate criticism.” Thick skin, soft heart. “An enormous amount of fear is rooted in a sense—a feeling—of non-belonging and loneliness. Isolation and loneliness.” “People who are more isolated and alone are drawn to these authoritarian movements.” “Ease the loneliness, build the connection. … Lean into relationship and presence.” “It was just stunning to me that, against all evidence of scripture, Christians were consigning people to eternal damnation over a vote in a presidential election.” Miles Law: “Where we stand is based on where we sit.” Kindness, humility, not living a fear-based angry life “If you're in a community where the fruit of the spirit dominate, you can withstand a lot of disagreement.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“It's sort of strange to think about beauty and horrible circumstances together. But I try, probably clumsily at times, to bring beauty to a thing that's really horrible. … But in terms of covering executions, there is just a void there. The main character always dies.” (Elizabeth Bruenig, from the episode) Despite sin, there remains an inherent beauty and goodness throughout creation… including humanity. And even in the most divisive circumstances, when we appeal to the beauty and horror in our shared human condition, we might be able to find common ground for mutual understanding and collaboration. And sometimes, in the best circumstances, we might even find a beautiful and life-giving encounter with the other. In this episode, celebrated journalist and self-described “avid partisan of humankind” Elizabeth Bruenig (Staff Writer for The Atlantic, and formerly The New York Times, Washington Post, and The New Republic) joins Mark Labberton to talk about journalism, her journey toward Catholicism, the complex moral and emotional lives of human beings, capital punishment and violence, and the prospects for introducing beauty into polarized politics and horrifying evil. About Elizabeth Bruenig Elizabeth Bruenig is a staff writer at The Atlantic. She was previously an opinion writer for The New York Times and The Washington Post, where she was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for Feature Writing. She has also been a staff writer at The New Republic and a contributor to the Left, Right & Center radio show. She currently hosts a podcast, The Bruenigs, with her husband, Matt Bruenig. Elizabeth holds a master of philosophy in Christian theology from the University of Cambridge. At The Atlantic, she writes about theology and politics. Show Notes Elizabeth Bruenig shares about her religious and philosophical background Bruenig shares about her journey toward Roman Catholicism The Eucharist and embodied experience of God The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist “I don't need to be studying and getting degrees, I need to just be living my life radically as a Christian.” Journalism, paying attention, and compassionate “I'm very interested in people and people's moral lives. Things like honor and shame, guilt—you know, very complex emotions—interest me a lot, and I think everyone has them all the time. People have these spiritual, ethical, moral struggles going on inside them. And so everybody is a little universe unto themselves.” What it means to be a Staff Writer Journalism with narrative, story, opinions, and arguments “I have found that to be a very successful way of garnering stories. It's just to listen to people.” “The first execution I ever witnessed, I witnessed for the New York Times, it was during Trump's spree of federal executions. I think they executed something like 13 people in six months, really unprecedented. I wanted to report on that.” Media witnesses as The Executions of Alfred Bourgeois, David Neal Cox, James Barber, Kenny Smith, and Alan Miller “I have had the opportunity to speak with men who were about to die.” “The Man I Saw Them Kill” “The idea of execution promises catharsis. The reality of it delivers the opposite, a nauseating sense of shame and regret. Alfred Bourgeois was going to die behind bars one way or another, and the only meaning in hastening it, as far as I could tell, was inflicting the terror and the torment of knowing that the end was coming early. I felt defiled by witnessing that particular bit of pageantry, all of that brutality cloaked in sterile procedure. So much time and effort goes into making executions seem like exercises of justice, not just power. Extreme measures are taken at each juncture to convince the public, and perhaps the executioners themselves, that the process is a fair, dispassionate, rational one. It isn't. There was no sense in it, and I can't make any out of it. Nothing was restored, nothing was gained. There isn't any justice in it, nor satisfaction, nor reason. There was nothing, nothing there.” Faith, the void of execution “I find that reading great essays summons language in me.” On Beauty and Being Just by Elaine Scarry “Beauty inspires reproduction” “It's sort of strange to think about beauty and horrible circumstances together. But I try, probably clumsily at times, to bring beauty to a thing that's really horrible. … But in terms of covering executions, there is just a void there. The main character always dies.” “I had a religious conviction going into the first execution that I was at that executions were wrong and it wasn't really based on anything that I could point to. I just had the, you know, very simple notion that killing people is wrong and that it's wrong in, in all cases, even if the person is a very bad person.” Two executions in the New Testament: the one Jesus halts, and the one that kills Jesus Execution as a subhuman act The logic of criminal justice system and capital punishment The difficulty of introducing beauty into polarized politics “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 8) Groaning beauty “All of creation groans under the weight of sin.” “The holiness of creation, the goodness of it, is so strong that it can't be, I don't think, entirely blotted out by sin. I just don't think that humans have the power to rob of beauty that which was made beautiful.” Finding beauty in visual culture, pop culture, museums, essay writing, and art On Beauty, Eula Biss— “… her prose, you know, glitters to me. I think it's fantastic. Not too melodramatic, restrained. And elegant.” Marilynne Robinson, imagination and beauty The political landscape Fears “I think when what's up for debate is like the rule of law, then I'm going to go with the candidate who whatever other faults is actually in favor of the rule of law. I think that's very important.” Assisted Suicide and Physician Assisted Suicide “I don't think I can write without bringing in theology, because it's so much a part of what I consider to be true. And so to give readers an honest view into what I'm thinking I have to provide the theological Issues that I'm thinking through.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“We have to go back to the very basic thing of understanding our shared humanity. And we've departed a long way from that—even the best of us, I'm afraid. It is just stunning. I mean, we are such a danger to everything we value.” (Marilynne Robinson, from the episode) Today on the show, Mark Labberton welcomes the celebrated novelist and essayist Marilynne Robinson to discuss her most recent book, Reading Genesis. Known for novels such as Housekeeping, Gilead, Home, and Lila, she offers a unique perspective on ancient scripture in her latest work of nonfiction. In this enriching and expansive conversation, they discuss the theological, historical, and literary value in the Book of Genesis; the meaning of our shared humanity; fear and reverence; how to free people from the view of God as threatening; the complicated and enigmatic nature of human freedom; the amazing love, mercy, and long-suffering of God on display in the unfolding drama of the Genesis narrative; and overall: “The beautiful ordinariness of a God-fashioned creature in ordinary communion with one another.” About Marilynne Robinson Marilynne Robinson is an award-winning American novelist and essayist. Her fictional and non-fictional work includes recurring themes of Christian spirituality and American political life. In a 2008 interview with the Paris Review, Robinson said, "Religion is a framing mechanism. It is a language of orientation that presents itself as a series of questions. It talks about the arc of life and the quality of experience in ways that I've found fruitful to think about." Her novels include Housekeeping (1980, Hemingway Foundation/Pen Award, Pulitzer Prize finalist), Gilead (2004, Pulitzer Prize), Home (2008, National Book Award Finalist), Lila (2014, National Book Award Finalist), and most recently, Jack (2020). Robinson's non-fiction works include Mother Country: Britain, the Welfare State, and Nuclear Pollution (1989), The Death of Adam: Essays on Modern Thought (1998), Absence of Mind: The Dispelling of Inwardness from the Modern Myth of the Self (2010), When I was a Child I Read Books: Essays (2012), The Givenness of Things: Essays (2015), and What Are We Doing Here?: Essays (2018). Her latest book is Reading Genesis (2024). Marilynne Robinson received a B.A., magna cum laude, from Brown University in 1966 and a Ph.D. in English from the University of Washington in 1977. She has served as a writer-in-residence or visiting professor at a variety of universities, including Yale Divinity School in Spring 2020. She currently teaches at the Iowa Writers' Workshop at the University of Iowa. She has served as a deacon for the Congregational United Church of Christ. Robinson was born and raised in Sandpoint, Idaho and now lives in Iowa City. Show Notes Get your copy of Reading Genesis by Marilynne Robinson Mark introduces Marilynne Robinson and her most recent foray into biblical interpretation Overarching narrative of God's time vs. Human time Theological, biblical, historical, and literary categories Why Genesis? Why biblical commentary? “Genesis is the foundational text, and God's self-revelation is the work of Genesis.” The expansiveness of the creation narrative from the beginning of everything to two people hoeing in a garden. Elohim and the universal God-name Monotheism and the enormously cosmic assertion of the nature of God From cosmology to granular human existence Amazement and the Book of Genesis “God saw the intentions of our heart and they were only evil always.” Conjuring the idea of a vindictive God—as opposed to a merciful, long-suffering, and loving God “It's hard to wiggle people free from the idea that God is primarily threatening.” The role of fear in sin, temptation, and evil “I think the fall is a sort of realization of a fuller aspect of our nature, which is painful to us and painful to God. But it's our humanity.” From the book: “The narrative of scripture has moved with astonishing speed from let there be light to this intimate scene of shared grief and haplessness. There is no incongruity in this. Human beings are at the center of it all. Love and grief are, in this infinite creation, things of the kind we share with God. The fact that they have their being in the deepest reaches of our extensionless and undiscoverable souls only makes them more astonishing. Over and against the roaring cosmos, that they exist at all can only be proof of a tender solicitude.” Ancient Near Eastern mythology “Meaning cannot leak out of this. It's absolutely meaningful.” Genesis is a “particular series of stories that are stories of the tumbling, bumbling, faithful, faithless, violent, peaceable, loyal, disloyal agency of human beings.” Mystery Theology as a vision, a revelation “The beautiful ordinariness of a God-fashioned creature in ordinary communion with one another.” The impact of Genesis in the history of our understanding of humanity, freedom, relationships, and so much more. Law as a liberation of one another: it limits your behavior and is emancipating to everyone around you. God's patience with human freedom and the ability to go wrong The enigma of freedom “From the very beginning, the Bible seems aware that we are our enemy and that we are our apocalyptic beast.” “Our freedom is very costly. It's costly to us. It's costly to God.” Imagination and the dynamics of freedom “An enhanced reverence for oneself has to be rooted in a reverence for God.” “The idea of the sacredness of God and the sacredness of the self.” Fear and reverence “You are holding in your imagination … and helping us to see, feel, and hear the voices and see the actions of ordinary human beings, who are both (like Psalm 8), ‘a little lower than the angels,' and at the same time, ‘we are dust and to dust you will return.'” Paying attention Marilynne Robinson's upbringing, access to nature, access to books, and plenty of solitude Joseph and the ending of the Genesis narrative: How might the story of Joseph speak to our time? “We have to go back to the very basic thing of understanding our shared humanity. And we've departed a long way from that—even the best of us, I'm afraid. It is just stunning. I mean, we are such a danger to everything we value. We are a danger to everything we value. And the fact that we can persist in doing that or tolerating it … there we are, you know? … We've always been strange, we human beings.” The perplexity of freedom “The way that Joseph understands his history is a comment on the idea of divine time.” “Joseph did enslave the Egyptians.” “There is no bow to tie around anything. There's simply whatever it yields in terms of meaning and beauty and so on.” Matthew 28 and the Great Commission “Christianity sliding into empire” The value of resolution and the open-ended nature of the Genesis narrative Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“I'm here because you're here.” Berkeley, California is known for being the home to the Free Speech Movement of the 1960s. It was and is the site of many protests, drawing vocal minorities to Sproul Plaza and People's Park for demonstrations, activism, and public assembly. So it's come to symbolize what it means to speak out and be heard. But what does it mean to minister to an energized public square? In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton thinks back to his time ministering in Berkeley, CA. First Presbyterian Church remains a close neighbor to the University of California, Berkeley campus. He describes an approach to public engagement marked by generous listening, a desire to know the individuals so moved to protest and speak out, and offer faithful presence to a community dedicated to protest and activism. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes Berkeley, CA People's Park Sproul Plaza (site of famous Free Speech Protests of the 1960s) How to intensify their thirst? “What I really wanted was a conversation.” “Listening to God, which is what the life of Christian worship actually is.” “Living a life of listening, which is central to all Christian discipleship.” “I'm here because you're here.” “I wish there had been a lineup of protesters outside first press asking, ‘How dare you?'… why are we not gathering protestors?” “I was wanting to so authentically speak and preach and live the gospel, that we would be the peculiar people that would cause people to say, ‘Why are you so peculiar?'—not just in that sense of church oddness, but in that deeper sense of why are you the peculiar people of unexplained mercy, unexplained forgiveness, unexplained passion for justice, unexplained sensitivity to individuals, and to societal, social, and systemic needs.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Wisdom is not just about knowledge. Wisdom adds to knowledge with discernment, with understanding, with a moral sense of what's right and wrong.” We live in a time of overflowing and interweaving crises. A global pandemic exacerbates a mental health crisis caused social media technology. The upheaval of American electoral politics caused by an erosion (or breakdown?) of social and relational trust. The rise of nationalism, the proliferation of war, and longing for justice in the realms of gender and race. Underneath it all appears to be a crisis of knowledge and its convergence around skepticism of science, a culture of suspicion, and confusion about basic factual information, let alone right and wrong. We need wisdom. Badly. But in times of crisis and chaos, where are we to turn for wisdom? In this episode Mark Labberton is joined by longtime friend Francis Collins, physician, researcher, and former director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Known for his leadership in mapping the human genome, his public service at the NIH spanned three presidencies and culminated with overseeing the national response to Covid-19 pandemic. The author of many books, including his bestselling The Language of God, Collins's new book is *The Road to Wisdom: On Truth, Science, Faith, and Trust,* a reflection on the crisis of truth, science, faith, and trust, and how the exhausted middle might chart a path toward a better future. About Francis Collins Francis S. Collins, MD, PhD, is the former director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). As the longest serving director of NIH—spanning twelve years and three presidencies—he oversaw the work of the largest supporter of biomedical research in the world, from basic to clinical research. Collins is a physician-geneticist noted for his landmark discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the international Human Genome Project, which culminated in April 2003 with the completion of a finished sequence of the human DNA instruction book. He served as director of the National Human Genome Research Institute at the NIH from 1993 to 2008. Collins's research laboratory has discovered a number of important genes, including those responsible for cystic fibrosis, neurofibromatosis, Huntington's disease, a familial endocrine cancer syndrome, and most recently, genes for type 2 diabetes, and the gene that causes Hutchinson-Gilford progeria syndrome, a rare condition that causes premature aging. Collins received a BS in chemistry from the University of Virginia, a PhD in physical chemistry from Yale University, and an MD with honours from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Prior to coming to the NIH in 1993, he spent nine years on the faculty of the University of Michigan, where he was a Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator. He is an elected member of the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences. Collins was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in November 2007 and the National Medal of Science in 2009. Show Notes Get your copy of The Road to Wisdom: On Truth, Science, Faith, and Trust “The crisis behind the crisis. It's the crisis of culture. It's the crisis of mind and heart. It's the crisis of society. It's the crisis of faith.” Collins occupying various roles through this book: professor, advocate, mentor, philosopher, coach, scientist, pathologist, and perhaps most saliently, cultural diagnostician. Being on the road to wisdom Helping those in the exhausted middle, to offer ways to do something to address cultural crises Collins summarizes the arc of the book TRUTH: “There is such a thing as objective truth. But it is not necessarily very popular in many circumstances.” “Facts—*established facts—*are now sometimes called into question because somebody doesn't like the fact.” Jonathan Rauch on the “Constitution of Knowledge” “You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. He doesn't say the counter that lies will imprison you, but you might have to think about that.” Science as a pathway to the truth Anecdotes vs. empirical science “We have to bring faith into this conversation if we're trying to shape a future that it gives you a chance to tap into all the wisdom that's there.” TRUST: “I found in my own experience, some of the information that turned out to be most life-changing came from a source that I never would have considered as part of my reliable circle of buddies, but I needed to hear it.” “Wisdom is not just about knowledge. Wisdom adds to knowledge with discernment, with understanding, with a moral sense of what's right and wrong.” “Our society is in trouble.” Where will the solution come from? No politicians, not media, but only us. Empowering people to be part of the solution “Love is your calling. Anger and fear are not your calling.” “Listen to understand.” Don't distribute information unless you're sure it's true. Build bridges with neighbours and within communities. Braver Angels Website “If you put information in front of people that's well established, they'll make rational decisions. And I assume that's what science is all about.” Collins's experience leading the charge to develop Covid-19 vaccines, and then managing the resistance to vaccines “People of faith in many instances were the most likely to fall into the category of not trusting what science had to say.” The cultural crisis beneath the medical crisis of Covid vaccine skepticism Collins reflects on public health responses to Covid-19 (school closures, mask mandates, etc.) Systemic breakdown caused by fear, anxiety, distrust, and suspicion Collins comments on Anthony Fauci's public service throughout Covid-19 Discrediting and redefining science, subverting faith Postmodernism and the erasure of objectivity and reason in science “Nothing is true except our perspective.” Francis Collins's perspectives on the Christian church Christians' ungrounded fear that this is a war Tim Alberta's book The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory “Seeing through a glass darkly.” (1 Cor 13) A book of hope and whole human experience “There are profound reasons for each of us to engage. This is an argument about not standing aside. It's crucial to see that what we are fighting for is great and glorious, and worth every bit of the effort from each of us. Truth, science, faith, and trust are not just sources of relief from a painful period in our country's life. They represent the grandest achievements and insights of human civilization. They literally hold down the promise of a better life for every person on this planet in material terms, in spiritual terms, and in social and cultural terms. To take up this challenge is therefore not an act one of exhaustion or desperation. But one arising from the hopeful pursuit of the promise of greater flourishing of our entire humandom.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Is perfection possible? And if so, is it worth the cost to your mental and spiritual health? The quest for perfection haunts many people: students, athletes, employees, parents—and the children of those parents! While this quest is often framed as the pursuit of excellence, virtue, and success, perfectionism often results in various maladaptive behaviours—such as procrastination, people-pleasing, relational stress, and mental illnesses, including anxiety and depression disorders. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Dr. Kenneth Wang, Professor of Psychology at Fuller School of Psychology, to talk about the psychological and spiritual dynamics of perfectionism. Together, they explore the connections between perfectionism and a range of personal and mental health issues, such as depression, achievement, religiosity, racial identity, and self-esteem. They reflect on the cultural obsession with perfection; the severe psychological and social burdens of trying to be perfect; the toxicity of comparison to others; the meaning of being “good enough”; and the spiritual impact of encouraging perfection in education, career, relationships, and personal life. About Kenneth Wang Kenneth Wang is Professor of Psychology at Fuller School of Psychology. He's an experienced therapist, and has conducted extensive research that spans the psychology of religion, to mindful meditation, to coping with trauma, mental health and race, moral character and virtue formation, diversity, and cross-cultural adjustment. His expertise is in the psychological study of perfectionism in familial, educational, religious contexts—looking at the phenomenon across a variety of cultures. Visit Dr. Kenneth Wang's website to take an online assessment for perfectionism and consider guidance and coaching from Dr. Wang. Show Notes Societal perfectionism and the lure of the perfect through technology Comparing perfectionism in Asia vs America Comparing ourselves to others “Editing for the perfect shot” “There's no time to relax or rest.” “One thing that's underlying challenges of perfectionism is that we compare ourselves with others and we feel like we're not good enough.” Rank-ordered report cards in Taiwan The psychological weight of pressure to perform Competition and perfectionism The elusive search for contentment The difference between performance and perfectionism Perfectionism's two core dimensions: (1) striving to meet very high standards of excellence / (2) discrepancy or evaluative concerns—being truly bothered by any amount of imperfections “Extreme perfectionists can't tolerate any imperfection.” Shame, rumination, and anxiety Kenneth guides Mark through a live perfectionism evaluation “Is your best good enough?” “Adaptive perfectionism” “I did the best I could” vs “I'm sure I always could have done better.” Cross-cultural dimensions of perfectionism: wanting to fit in, the exhaustion of trying to get things right, and language apprehensiveness Timidity and fear to make a mistake Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder and perfectionism The view of oneself: performance achievement mentality, seeking validation, unstable self-worth Perfectionists magnify imperfections Inner critic Kenneth Wang's recovery as a perfectionism Can perfectionists forgive themselves for displeasing others? How to deal with the emotions that come along with perfectionist catastrophizing Training mental muscles to become more resilient to negative emotions How to “sit with emotions” Japanese Kintsugi practices and the visibility of a history of brokenness: gold paint that highlights brokenness and imperfect repair Theological reflections on perfection: “Only God is perfect.” How does Christianity speak into perfectionism with grace and truth? “I am the vine, you are the branches.” Shame and giving up on our illusions of perfection Coping with inadequacy Allowing God to lead us into the broad place instead of the narrow place Fuller Theological Seminary's “Imperfect Culture Lab” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

The news media offers a steady drip of audacity, nerve, and offence—something for each end of the political spectrum and every corner of the public square. But when we integrate audacity with a humble confidence, it can lead to powerful acts of love and justice. The gospel makes an audacious claim about God's grace. It makes an audacious demand that we love our neighbours in humility. And that combination of audacity and humility keeps us seeking to engage in real conversations about ultimate things—despite our differences, despite resentments, despite all the reasons to give up on building something together. In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the meaning of audacity, humility, and courage when the church engages in public life. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes What is audacity? Virtuous audacity, e.g., The Audacity of Hope (like Barack Obama) Injurious audacity, e.g., preposterous, foolish, offensive, distorting, railroading, steamrolling, shutting down, closing off But an additional form of audacity “has led to the humblest and most sacrificial forms of human service and love and compassion and mercy and justice.” Imagine a crowd of Berkeley, CA, protesters lined up before you, demanding: “How dare you?” Audacity and courage “It actually helped galvanize in my own voice—in my heart, in my lungs, in my mind—a sense of what I hope was humble confidence in proclaiming a gospel that I did and do believe is true.” “How do we actually engage in real conversation about ultimate things?” Adopting a stance of “we are all in this together” “How dare we believe and speak in God's name?” “Indeed how dare I, and then also how dare I not if this is actually true?!” Integrating humility, confidence, courage Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

How should we approach disagreements when our deepest convictions and commitments are challenged or questioned? A healthy society is built around the ability to navigate these kinds of disagreements with responsibility and respect, but in our increasingly polarized society, it's becoming harder and harder to cultivate the habits, skills, and virtues that can keep us united amid our vehement disagreements. In this episode Mark welcomes legal scholar and law professor John Inazu to discuss how to approach disagreement with wisdom, care, and a commitment to the well-being of the other. John is the Sally D. Danforth Distinguished Professor of Law and Religion at Washington University in St. Louis. He speaks and writes frequently about pluralism, assembly, free speech, and religious freedom. His latest book is Learning to Disagree: The Surprising Path to Navigating Differences with Empathy and Respect. Together Mark and John discuss the role of fear management when approaching difficult conversations; how to appreciate the complexity and diversity of perspectives in others; the role of empathy in communication; how to learn to disagree constructively in different life contexts from work to home to politics; how authority, power dynamics, and social roles factor in productive disagreements; the light and dark sides of civility; and how to navigate and negotiate our disagreements with compassion and love. About John Inazu John Inazu is the Sally D. Danforth Distinguished Professor of Law and Religion at Washington University in St. Louis. He teaches criminal law, law and religion, and various First Amendment courses. He writes and speaks frequently about pluralism, assembly, free speech, religious freedom, and other issues. John has written three books—including Learning to Disagree: The Surprising Path to Navigating Differences with Empathy and Respect (Zondervan, 2024) and Liberty's Refuge: The Forgotten Freedom of Assembly (Yale University Press, 2012)—and has published opinion pieces in the Washington Post, The Atlantic, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, USA Today, Newsweek, and CNN. He is also the founder of the Carver Project and the Legal Vocation Fellowship and is a senior fellow with Interfaith America. Show Notes Get your copy of Learning to Disagree: The Surprising Path to Navigating Differences with Empathy and Respect (https://www.jinazu.com/learning-to-disagree) John Inazu's background as a legal scholar and expert on first amendment rights, including the freedom to assemble peaceably, or “the right to peaceful assembly” How to learn from lawyers about how to disagree How does fear factor into communicating through disagreement? What neuroscience has taught as about fear “I can understand why you feel that…” Well-practiced habits Be prepared to engage differently Learning how to practice communication outside of a toxic social media or online context Empathy and the complexity of others' views Canadian psychological research on empathy Avoiding abstraction in order to cultivate empathy David Brooks's book, How to Know a Person How to understand fundamental versus surface-level differences Heated political issues and the social roles we inhabit Power dynamics, authority, and responsibility Power dynamics in the classroom How to approach disagreement in political protests on college campuses, e.g., Columbia University “Part of that responsibility is recognizing that people are hurting in very deep ways. … We're not talking about abstractions or debating some historical event, we're talking about real felt emotions.” “I'm aware that the capacity for interpersonal interaction has fallen off and it becomes more and more a school, or an environment, or a culture in which disagreement is not allowed.” Civility as a virtue or a vice? Purely cognitive rationality vs complex, emotional passions Fannie Lou Hamer and playing by a different set of social norms and rules Polarization and political tensions in partisan America “Totalizing positions” and the shrinking possibility of genuine communications Shirley Mullen's book, Claiming the Courageous Middle How to uphold convictions without surrendering any ultimate truth claims How John Inazu has been shaped, formed, and influenced Curiosity and patience Close relationships that do formative work The Antidote for our cultural moment: “A lot of very small and very personal efforts where individual lives change postures … and contribute to social change with storytelling and exemplars and costly practices.” Small incremental steps: Jesus's metaphor that the Kingdom of God is like yeast What would happen if American Christians started listening to the global church? What is the role of the imagination in learning to disagree? Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“The mystery has great meaning.”   Joy and sorrow don't have to be dissonant opposites, author Amy Low suggests. There can be harmony in the space between triumph and tragedy. In her recent memoir, *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room,* she recounts her battle with Stage IV metastatic colon cancer following the end of her marriage.   Her gracious, generous wisdom is beautifully expressed on her book's back cover: “Through the swirl of prolonged trauma and unbearable grief, a vantage point emerged—a window that showed her the way to relish life and be kinder to herself and others while living through the inevitable loss and heartbreak that crosses everyone's paths.”   In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Amy for a conversation about the lessons she's learned from living with cancer, including: how to come to terms with our own deaths; dealing with divorce and a traumatic end of a relationship; how to walk the path of forgiveness and humility; the immense complexity and beauty of humanity; how to explore the meaning of mystery without fear; the role of friendship and community in dealing with cancer; and the hope of imagining heaven.   About Amy Low Amy Low, author of *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room,* has been a storyteller all her life. She grew up in and continues to live life through parables and metaphors. She sees her life as an invitation to discovering the new every day and even records some of these discoveries in her Substack, Postcards from the Mountain. As the managing director for fellowships and non-profit journalism at the Emerson Collective, she directs efforts to empower individuals and newsrooms to strengthen our shared conversation in the public square. Most important, Amy is mom to Connor and Lucy. Her proudest achievement is raising a son and daughter who are unafraid, grateful, and curious, whether in class, at home, on stage, or especially in the band. Get your copy of *The Brave In-Between: Notes from the Last Room.*   Follow Amy's story through her Substack, Postcards from the Mountain.   Being in the last room of one's life   The profundity and sacredness of discussing one's “last room”—”the most human place of all”   Bravery, imagination, and generosity   Amy Low's cancer diagnosis of Stage IV metastatic colon cancer at 48 years old   Discovering metastases   Living in the last room: an unusual place to inhabit in mid-life   There are different ways to live in the last room.   St. Paul's “last room” as described in the Letter to the Philippians   Lament and levity   Grief and being with people in their last rooms   Being fully alive in the midst of facing one's death   “I can say with confidence for me that divorce was far harder than cancer. When I had to grapple with the gravity of my disease and the diagnosis and what I was going to face … I had come through a space of the woods that I can say was far more ominous, far harder, far more heartbreaking.”   Divorce   Forgiveness and receiving care from her ex-husband   How to create a new story in the wake of tragedy and trauma   Forgiveness as “releasing people from the negative consequences of their behavior”   “Giving yourself permission to be truly loved, and to be truly released from shame.”   Fear   Amy's honest, artful, candid expression of her story   “Metaphors are places that hold ambiguity.”   Finding peace with ambiguity and mystery   Joy and purpose   “The worst thing anyone ever said to me was, you know, this whole thing is like so random. … And I thought, ‘No. No. The minute you call this random, the minute this doesn't have any meaning.”   “The mystery has great meaning.”   Grappling with the tension of purpose and pain   How specific friends stood by Amy in approaching the experience of her cancer diagnosis   “Don't just do something. Stand there.”   The challenge of receiving without giving much back—and reframing the meaning of “giving back”   The hope of imagining heaven   Heaven on earth as parachuting hot dogs   “The great hope is that we all wake up and we laugh at the good stuff and be brave at the hard stuff.”   Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“A certain degree of faith in Providence and a certain degree of confidence in America … May that combination not be overwhelmed by some disaster.” (New York Times columnist Ross Douthat, offering a blessing for election season) Contemporary political debate and commentary operates from deeply moral sources. People tend to vote their conscience. Our values and ideals, our sense of right and wrong, and our beliefs about what contributes or detracts from the common good often inform our politics. And across the political spectrum, Americans of all stripes exercise their citizenship and public engagement through a religious faith that grounds it all. So, what better space to explore this conjunction of faith, morality, and political life than The New York Times Opinion section? Today on the show, Ross Douthat joins Mark Labberton to discuss how his faith and theological commitments ground his moral and political perspectives. Douthat joined The New York Times as an Opinion columnist in 2009, and regularly appears on the weekly Opinion podcast, “Matter of Opinion.” He's also a film critic for National Review and was previously senior editor at The Atlantic. In this episode, they discuss the spiritual and political background of Douthat's youth and how Roman Catholic Christianity grounded his religious and political views; the challenges for how the Catholic Church and its moral teachings can adapt to contemporary culture; how faith and morality can speak to our dynamic political moment during the 2024 election season; and finally Ross's hope and faith in divine providence met with confidence in America's resilience and capacity for good. About Ross Douthat Ross Douthat joined The New York Times as an Opinion columnist in 2009, and regularly appears on the weekly Opinion podcast, “Matter of Opinion.” He's also a film critic for National Review. Previously, he was a senior editor at The Atlantic. He is the author of several books, including The Deep Places: A Memoir of Illness and Discovery (2021), The Decadent Society (2020), To Change the Church: Pope Francis and the Future of Catholicism (2018), Bad Religion: How We Became a Nation of Heretics (2012); Privilege: Harvard and the Education of the Ruling Class (2005), and, with Reihan Salam, Grand New Party: How Republicans Can Win the Working Class and Save the American Dream (2008). His newest book, Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious, will be published in early 2025. Show Notes   Ross Douthat's spiritual background as Episcopalian, Pentecostal-Evangelical, and eventually Roman Catholic   Our “spiritually haunted environment”   How Catholicism has changed from Pope John Paul II to Pope Francis   Adapting moral teachings to contemporary challenges   “Many, many of the problems in our culture and the reasons for people's unhappiness are related to issues of sex and relationships.”   “Jesus says incredibly stringent and strenuous things in the Gospels about sex.”   “I think if the church stops having some sort of countercultural message on those issues, then it won't actually be speaking to the big challenges and derangements of our time.”   “All of the developed world is heading over this demographic cliff…”   People aren't getting married anymore. They aren't forming relationships anymore.”   Pope Francis, pastoral sensitivity, and making moral concessions to contemporary culture   Pope Francis squelching the Latin mass   Commenting on the dynamics and craziness of our political moment   “Over the course of my career, I have tried to spend a lot of time with the idea that Catholicism in particular, and I think Christianity in general, should stand a little bit outside of partisan categories.”   How the Republican Party can address the needs of the working class   Ross Douthat's views during the Trump Era   Providence and appealing to God's control   "Man proposes, and God disposes.”   “The world has grown weirder in general, in the last decade, than it was when I was in my twenties.”   Providence and freedom   Ross's thesis in The Decadent Society: “The Western world and really the whole planet was sort of stuck stagnant. We'd achieved this incredible level of wealth and technological power, we'd filled the earth and subdued it to some degree, but we were suffering from uncertainty, malaise, and ennui because we didn't know what to do next.”   Space travel and Elon Musk   Looking for help from some other power: God, Aliens, or A.I.   The unique perspective Ross Douthat brings to The New York Times   “As the world has grown weirder, I've felt a little more comfortable being weird myself, and that so far hasn't gotten me fired.”   “You know, not to brag, but yeah, I'm probably the weirdest columnist at a major American newspaper.”   Offering a blessing for the nation's experience between now and election day   “Life in the United States is an underrated good. Americans have become very pessimistic, very unhappy with each other, sometimes unhappy with themselves … And I think actually, beneath that difficult surface, America has a lot of real strengths and real resilience and American culture is better positioned, I think, than a lot of cultures around the world to navigate the next 50 to 100 years of human history. So I think that should give people some confidence.”   “A certain degree of faith in Providence and a certain degree of confidence in America.”   Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Sacred spaces are not secret spaces. The church enacts a gospel reality that is inherently universal and transparent in the world. And what better metaphor than building a church sanctuary made of glass to communicate the invitation of the gospel to the world? In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the implications of this architectural decision. He also considers the opportunities for community conversation; the invitation to communion, dialogue, and unity; and a fearless, gospel-centered transparency between the church and the world.   About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”   About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing.   Show Notes   Preaching in a glass-walled sanctuary at First Presbyterian Berkeley, CA   “It's one cross, in the world and for the church… but it's for everyone.”   The “live theater” of preaching in a glass-walled sanctuary   We live in a church and world of both stillness and movement—which is embodied in Jesus's ministry   “I wanted to feel like what I was doing in the sanctuary would land as much with realistic speech and tone and assumption in the streets of Berkeley as it would land inside the sanctuary.”   “It was a good way to hold my feet to the fire. Would I say this if I was standing exposed as it were on the street outside? Or would I only say this inside the closed walls of, yes, a clear glass wall church? So it became a metaphor—a reality—a vivid visual play that was part of every Sunday.”   Utter transparency of glass over stone walls   In a sacred space there is a transparency.   “The same kind of tyranny against faith exists inside us, but also around us. And now we're together going to share in the celebration of the Lord's table. ‘Come all you who are hungry. Eat and drink of this body and this bread.' We're doing that in public view.   How do we live the claims of the gospel in a way that's humble—not arrogant, not presumptuous, not full of pride, not insider-outsider, not us-versus-them… we are the us.”   “The gospel is for all of us.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“When we pursue excellence it doesn't have to come at the cost of our emotional and relational health.” (Ben Houltberg) How do we form an identity and sense of self? Do we define ourselves based on the fragile glass shelter of what we achieve or how well we perform? If so, how does that affect our sense of meaning and purpose in life? With the 2024 Paris Olympics underway, it's easy to imagine how an elite athlete at the top of her game might form an identity based on her athletic or competitive performance. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes developmental scientist Ben Houltberg to reflect on the pursuit of achievement and excellence, exploring what's at stake for our psychological and spiritual health when we find our identity and life's meaning in our performance. Together they discuss: the glass shelter of athletic achievement and the opportunity that emerges when it inevitably shatters; the various performance contexts of family, relationships, education, sports, career, and religion; the dangers of conditional acceptance based on performance; the performance-enhancing impact of healthy coaching and mentoring relationships; the transformative effects of unconditional love; and ultimately, how to be free from a performance-based identity. About Ben Houltberg Benjamin Houltberg is a developmental scientist, experienced marriage and family therapist, and president and CEO of Search Institute. He is associate research professor at the University of Southern California, and was previously associate professor of human development at Fuller Theological Seminary's School of Psychology. Follow him @benhoultberg, and learn more about Search Institute online. Show Notes About Ben Houltberg: developmental scientist, licensed marriage and family therapist, and CEO of Search Institute About “performance-based identity” Olympics and athletic performance-based identity “When we pursue excellence it doesn't have to come at the cost of our emotional and relational health.” “What is my purpose?” Olympic athlete Simone Biles' public breakdown and dominant return to gymnastics “If you think about the natural trajectory of an elite athlete, it is towards a performance-based identity.” How elite athletes form their identity in their athletic performance. “A Glass Shelter” of athletic achievement: what happens when that glass shelter breaks? When the glass shelter breaks, it becomes a transformative opportunity. “Whether it was youth sports and training for a marathon, or whether it was in elite athletes or whether it was in different large organizations and their staff employees … the profile emerges that it is in some ways a human condition: that performance-based identity can really trap us into an approach to life and an approach to relationships and approach to competition that is undermining us and will eventually lead to a shattered sense of self.” Actor vs performer in the world (Action vs. Performance) Influenced by what other people think we are How to understand “performance context” across domains of sports, education, career, relationships, family, morality, and society at large The dangers of limiting our identities to performance Conditional acceptance based on performance Human relationships, connectivity, and collectivism as performance enhancing Coaching and mentoring to deal with the stress of performing NCAA sports Helping young people find “the spark”—their passion and potential and purpose How the Search Institute studies performance-based identity Christian faith and unconditional love How to be free from a performance-based identity Finding our identity in beauty, connection, and commonality Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

People have been given so many reasons to despise Christianity. What would it be to communicate with and for the “cultured despisers of the faith”? This was the audience Friedrich Schleiermacher wrote to in his seminal work, The Christian Faith, and it is the audience Mark Labberton sought to speak to when preaching at First Presbyterian Church in Berkeley, California. In this Conversing Short, Mark considers the importance of communicating the gospel in its fullness to a culture that understandably despises Christianity, rather than domesticating it as the ecclesiastical industrial complex has. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes 19th-century theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher "Cultured despisers of the faith” (introduced in The Christian Faith and On Religion: Speeches to Its Cultured Despisers) Darwin, Freud, and Nietzsche “If you were a cultured person, you would have abandoned the faith.” “People's life circumstances have, for understandable reasons, left them in a position to despise the faith.” Reflecting Jesus or reflecting the “ecclesiastical industrial complex”? Christian questions about what really matters “The gospel itself, by God's revelation in Christ, if that's true, is a shocking surprise to the world.” How the Gospel has been domesticated by the Church Annie Dillard: if we understood the power of what we're dealing with, we'd hand out crash helmets and seatbelts in church. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Out of the greatest misery and the most devastating loss can come unimagined growth, and, in some cases, joy and happiness.”   Mark Labberton welcomes pioneering social entrepreneur Mawi Asgedom, an award-winning innovator, author, and advocate for social-emotional learning (SEL). Sharing his story of struggle, resilience, and redemption, Mawi describes his extraordinary journey from war-torn Ethiopia to a Sudanese refugee camp, to a childhood on welfare in an affluent American suburb, to Harvard graduate, to sharing a stage with Oprah Winfrey, to reimagining educational technology to improve youth mental health and thriving.   Together they discuss the essential life lessons Mawi has learned and taught through his remarkable personal history, including the difficult cultural transition as an Ethiopian refugee in the Chicago suburbs, the pain of losing his brother followed by the pain of losing his faith, the power of positivity and mature Christian faith, and his vision for helping children develop social-emotional skills to navigate life.   About Mawi Asgedom   Mawi Asgedom is an award-winning innovator, author, and advocate for social-emotional learning (SEL). He has spent over 20 years helping youth unlock their potential, training millions of educators and students, and collaborating with leading youth development organizations. His book, Of Beetles and Angels: A Boy's Remarkable Journey from a Refugee Camp to Harvard, is a survival story of overcoming war, famine, suffering, and countless obstacles. He is the creator of Inner Heroes Universe, and his work has been featured by various media outlets, including Oprah Winfrey, who named her interview with Mawi one of her top 20 moments. A father of four school-aged kids, Mawi can often be found coaching youth sports on the weekends.   Show notes Read Mawi Asgedom's book: Of Beetles and Angels: A Boy's Remarkable Journey from a Refugee Camp to Harvard A story of challenge, struggle, pain and suffering; but also a story of God's faithfulness, and Mawi's resilience, joy, devotion, love, intelligence, and hard work Mawi's childhood and origin story Life in Tigray, Ethiopia Civil War that led to the establishment of Eritrea Mawi's mother's incredible journey from Ethiopia to Sudan, facing the dangers of hyenas, rebel forces, and homelessness with her three children The normalcy of suffering Describing the refugee camp in Sudan How Mawi understands his personal history and life experience A Nail Through the Finger: how parents in dire circumstances teach children to survive “Where I come from, people expect a lot of bad things to happen. It's just part of how life is. In the States, people get really upset if any bad things happen.” Mawi's experience of cultural assimilation His family's relocation to Wheaton, Illinois, outside of Chicago, through World Relief “Sweetness passed us by before we called it sweet.” The cultural shock of moving to the U.S. and being the only Ethiopian family. Challenges of isolation, language barriers, and racism "Facing bullying and discrimination tested my resilience." “That took me quite a long time to be able to step into who I really was and be like, ‘I got nothing to be ashamed of. I am proud of my mom and dad. I'm proud of my background. I'm proud of every part of who I am.' It took me a long time to be able to feel that and say that. I think that was probably the invisible kind of scar from that experience.” “On the rise to become an exceptional achiever…” The greatest poverty is a poverty of relationship: “I spoke one time at a correctional facility outside of Chicago … and he said, ‘I'd rather be a refugee and go through stuff you went through with a family that I was close to who loved me than be in this country by myself.' And I thought about it and I was like, this student is correct. The greatest poverty really is a poverty relationship. It's when you have no one.” Mawi's relationship with his brother Mawi's friend, Mark Linz, missionary to Ethiopia Philippians 4:13: “I can do all things through Christ Jesus who gives me strength.” “I believe that Mark. I believe there's something I could do. I don't have to worry about the fact that I live in a Section 8 housing. I don't have to worry about the fact that my father is unemployed, but these other kids in my school, their parents have great jobs. I believe that the creator of the universe loves me.” The terror and grief of losing his brother in a drunk driving accident Maintaining positive momentum through horrific, unimaginable, devastating challenges “Out of the greatest misery and the most devastating loss can come unimagined growth, and, in some cases, joy and happiness.” The agony of loss and the healing and learning that came from the experience of grace Mawi's Harvard experience Losing Christian faith at Harvard: “I still remember one of the most shocking moments in my life. It was so shocking to me, Mark. I woke up, I think it was my second day of my sophomore year in my room. And I realized something: I didn't believe in God anymore. And it was a shocking existential moment. One way to think about it is: Losing Jesus was a different version of losing my brother. … When you're a true follower of Christ and you are connected to Christ and you pray every day, read the word every day and you put your faith in him. It's not a small loss. It's a massive loss.” Depression and hopelessness Maturing past a faith that had no room for doubt: “My faith now is rooted in doubt. It's rooted in the idea that there's so much I don't know, and, and yet I choose to have faith in Jesus.” Social-emotional learning Mawi's entrepreneurial mindset Mawi's adolescent struggle with confidence and self-esteem Mawi's foray into working with children “One of the most important things I learned, Mark, is the best way to help kids is to help the adults in their lives.” Mawi's new venture: Inner Heroes Universe, inspired by Pixar's Inside Out Using metaphors to make the abstract concrete: “an incredible inner world” “I believe to reach the next generation, it's not going to work to try to convince them to do less media and to do things the way we had, the old way. We have to go to where they are and create rich media.” “Imagine if you could only communicate positive psychology using art and storytelling. And you couldn't be didactic and you had to use imagination and creativity.” Seeing through Mawi's eyes and background: “a great instance of harvesting pain, of harvesting joy, of harvesting deep cultural difference, of harvesting challenging childhood experiences…”   Production Credits   Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Imagine preaching in front of a crowd of protesters holding a banner: “HOW DARE YOU?” That's what Mark Labberton did every Sunday preaching in the clear, glass-walled sanctuary of First Presbyterian Church in Berkeley, California. In this Conversing Short, Mark reflects on this foundational, animating question that defined his public leadership during his sixteen years as senior pastor of First Pres. About Conversing Shorts: “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes The clear glass walls of First Presbyterian Church in Berkeley, CA “You're doing everything that you're doing in public.” “I wanted to welcome the outside, inside.” Berkeley protestors An imaginary poster: “How dare you?” Accepting responsibility, being held to account by the City of Berkeley Preaching in God's name Mark on the question, “How dare you?”: “And it felt like the question was legitimate. How dare you get this land? Why should it be given over to this purpose? What is it that you're worth? What are you actually bringing to the city? On what grounds can you make such outlandish claims? What are the implications of it? How will it show up that you actually live what you're saying? And therefore, how dare you do this both intrinsically? How dare you do this existentially? How dare you do it theologically? But also, how dare you do it culturally and politically and socially.” “What does it mean in this place at this time, surrounded by this community of believers and unbelievers, skeptics and critics of every kind?” Preaching to the “Cultured Despisers of the Faith” (a term coined by 19th century theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher in The Christian Faith) “Having grown up largely outside the life of the Church … I was one of the cultured despisers.” Representing classic Christian faith in an entirely unclassical community like Berkeley “I felt like if the Christian faith can't show up and make some kind of intelligent, purposeful, meaningful, transformative difference, then there is no case to be made and I should just walk away.” What's worth giving your life to? Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“The Constitution is neither a left-wing or right-wing document. It is ultimately about how to hold a society together.” American political life today is fractured and splintered, but many still yearn for unity. How can we find social cohesion amid sharply felt differences? Political scientist Yuval Levin wants to bring us back to our founding document: the American Constitution. After all, the Preamble identifies as its primary purposes to “form a more perfect union” and “establish justice.” Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Currie Chair in Public Policy. His latest book is American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again. He's founder of National Affairs, senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor of National Review, and contributing opinion writer at the New York Times. Levin joins Mark Labberton to discuss the US Constitution's purpose in fostering social cohesion and unity; the malfunction of Congress to build coalitions across disagreement; the values of social order and social justice; the fragility of democracy; the difference between a contract and a covenant; and the American aspiration to live up to the covenantal relationship and mutual belonging implied in “We the people.” About Yuval Levin Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. The founder and editor of National Affairs, he is also a senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times. At AEI, Levin and scholars in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies research division study the foundations of self-government and the future of law, regulation, and constitutionalism. They also explore the state of American social, political, and civic life, focusing on the preconditions necessary for family, community, and country to flourish. Levin served as a member of the White House domestic policy staff under President George W. Bush. He was also executive director of the President's Council on Bioethics and a congressional staffer at the member, committee, and leadership levels. In addition to being interviewed frequently on radio and television, Levin has published essays and articles in numerous publications, including Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, The Atlantic, and Commentary. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation – and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024). He holds an MA and PhD from the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago. Show Notes Get your copy of Yuval Levin's American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again Yuval Levin's background as a Jewish American and his childhood immigration to the United States from Israel. Yuval has “the kind of vision that sometimes immigrants have, which combines a really deep gratitude for this country with a sense of what's unique about it, and what's wonderfully strange about it.” Yuval's religious practice at a Conservative Jewish synagogue in Washington, DC. How Torah has shaped Yuval Levin's life and thought. Torah is Hebrew for “law.” Annual cycle of reading and immersing oneself in a text. “The American Constitution is not divine. It's the work of a patchwork of compromises, it has a lot of problems, by no means do I think that it's analogous to the Hebrew Bible.” Why write a book about the American Constitution? How to understand the constitution as a framework for social cohesion and unity. “Even in the private lives of a lot of Americans, I think the sense of isolation, of alienation, breakdown of social cohesion is very powerful in the lives of a lot of people.” Constitution is intended to unify, but it's been used to divide. James Madison as a primary figure in Yuval's new book. “Americans tend to approach politics by thinking of other Americans as the problem to be solved.” “In any free society, there are always going to be divisions.” James Madison in Federalist 10: “He just says, simply: As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he's at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. The fact that we disagree is not a failure. It is a reality. And yet, that doesn't mean that we can't be unified.” Unity doesn't mean thinking alike, it means acting together. “The Constitution compels us into building coalitions with precisely the people we disagree with.” Yuval Levin explains the premises behind his book The Great Debate: Edmund Burke, Thomas Paine, and the Birth of Right and Left Social order versus social justice “There are, as a general matter, more or less two ways of thinking about the purpose of a free society like ours. There is a way of seeing it as intended to address the challenge of chaos and disorder, and there is a way of seeing it as intended to address the challenge of inequality and injustice.” “… the premise of human fallenness, which says that we begin unready for freedom. And we need to be formed and shaped to be capable of freedom.” “I think it's worth our seeing the Constitution is neither a left-wing or right-wing document. It is ultimately about how to hold a society together, which has these two sides to it. And so it has a lot to offer us.” Social order as “patient to a fault” and “prejudicial toward white or elite culture.” Ideological extremism. “The most dangerous kinds of abuses of the weak happen at the hands of majorities. And therefore, democracy itself has to be constrained by principles of justice that are kept beyond the reach of majorities.” The question of “simple majority rule.” Populism. Two minority parties, rather than a majority party. Coalition building is just not being allowed to play out. Shared action versus shared ideas. Congress is about acting together when you don't think alike. “Clearly there is something broken about Congress… Everybody agrees the institution is dysfunctional. I don't think everybody agrees about what function it isn't performing.” “Their job is actually to negotiate with the other party.” “I think that's fed a kind of attitude among a lot of prominent politicians in America that says, fighting for my constituents means yelling at the other party, and refusing to give ground, refusing to give an inch. That's actually not what fighting looks like in our kind of democracy. That's what losing looks like. Fighting looks like effectively bargaining and negotiating so as to achieve something of what your voters want or need. Partisanship, reactionary politics, and cynicism “I've come to think that cynicism about politics is actually very naive.” “The people you're dealing with are not cynical Machiavellians. They really believe they're doing good here, and there actually is room to have an argument.” How does justice operate in the political approach Yuval Levin advocates? The first two purposes of the Constitution: form a more perfect union, and establish justice. Who gets to decide what is just? Human equality and dignity as the premises for justice Why wasn't slavery abolished in the Constitution itself? Native Americans and the abuse of human dignity Analogy: relating to our political or religious tradition as analogous to the child–parent relationship Seeking a mature relationship with our traditions Yuval Levin on the fragility of democracy: “Our democracy is often at risk.” Contract (an agreement that can be broken) vs. Covenant (a relationship of belonging) “'We the people of the United States.' That “we” is an aspiration.” Yuval Levin's perspective on the American Church, and how it contributes to the current social crisis American evangelicals coming to identify as an “embattled minority” or a “moral minority” Judging the success of a religious community by their influence as a political block “The particularly Madisonian logic of the Constitution is that everyone is a minority. … And that is not a position of weakness, necessarily, in this society. This is a society that is unusually solicitous of minorities. And when it's at its best, it is especially solicitous of minorities.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“All of our emotions are there for a good reason. They're positive. They want to help. And a little anxiety is good. … All of society is saying, ‘Get rid of emotion. It's awful. It's evil.' It's not true.” In this episode, Mark welcomes Pete Docter, executive producer of Inside Out 2, and the Oscar-winning director of Monsters, Inc., Up, and Inside Out. Pete joined Pixar Animation Studios in 1990 at twenty-one years old as its third animator, and is now Pixar's chief creative officer. Mark and Pete discuss the ins and outs of Inside Out 2, including its themes about emotion, psychology, adolescence, and the discovery and acceptance of who we are. Pete reflects on the power of music to convey unconscious meaning, alongside the subtle and sophisticated animation techniques used by Pixar today. We learn about the new emotion characters (including Anxiety, Embarrassment, and Ennui), as well as those that almost made the cut. And Pete comments on the spiritual and moral dimensions that Inside Out 2 is able to explore. About Pete Docter Pete Docter is the Oscar-winning director of Monsters, Inc., Up, and Inside Out, and chief creative officer at Pixar Animation Studios. He most recently directed Disney and Pixar's Oscar-winning feature film Soul with producer Dana Murray and co-director Kemp Powers, which is now streaming on Disney+. Starting at Pixar in 1990 as the studio's third animator, Docter collaborated on and helped develop the story and characters for Toy Story, Pixar's first full-length animated feature film, for which he also was supervising animator. He served as a storyboard artist on A Bug's Life and wrote initial story treatments for both Toy Story 2 and WALL•E. Aside from directing his three films, Docter also executive produced Monsters University and the Academy Award–winning Brave. Docter's interest in animation began at the age of eight, when he created his first flipbook. He studied character animation at California Institute of the Arts (CalArts) in Valencia, California, where he produced a variety of short films, one of which won a Student Academy Award. Those films have since been shown in animation festivals worldwide and are featured on the Pixar Short Films Collection, volume 2. Upon joining Pixar, he animated and directed several commercials, and has been nominated for eight Academy Awards, including Best Animated Feature–winners Up and Inside Out and nominee Monsters, Inc., and Best Original Screenplay for Up, Inside Out and WALL•E. In 2010, Up also was nominated for a Best Picture Oscar by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Show Notes Continuity and discontinuity in Inside Out 2 Pete Docter comments on the main character/setting of Inside Out series: Riley and what's going on inside her head. Some psychologists think there are 27 emotions Puberty and adolescence New emotions: Bringing Anxiety, Embarrassment, and Ennui (Boredom) into the picture Anxiety as the new protagonist Changing body and outgrowing an old sweater Riley's pimple: “That was something that Kelsey Mann, the director, was big on from the beginning. He would say, we were so used to seeing characters represented in this perfect, idealized way. And yet, when we look at the mirror, we realize, ‘Hey, I don't measure up to that.' That was kind of the message of the film from the beginning—is learning to accept yourself. You know, the flaws and all, because that's so much of our civilization is measuring ourselves against others. And especially that period in time growing up, you're suddenly socially aware, and where you fit in or don't.” From family to friends as the dominant group “All of our emotions are there for a good reason. They're positive. They want to help. And a little anxiety is good. Lisa L'Amour, who was a consultant on the film, her big thing is like, all of society is saying, ‘Get rid of emotion. It's awful. It's evil.' It's not true.” Researching the psychology of emotion for the film, and experimenting with various emotions as characters Anxiety as subtly controlling Schadenfreude almost made Inside Out and Inside Out 2 as a gag. Anxiety is not directly related to puberty. “Who are we? What are the things that make us who we are? Is it just our experiences, our beliefs, our actions that we take? And all of those start to get folded into the film.” “For me, the creative process is all about the nitty gritty details.” “So really that's just what I'm trying to do is for us in that room, as we're making it: Are we engaged? Are we emotional?” The complexity of guilt and shame Learning that sincerity—the truth of the character—is the key Special Effects work in Inside Out 2 The subtle and sophisticated storytelling device of Riley's eyes. How digital animation works today—more like a puppet than a drawing. Music as an unconscious communicator Dr. Paul Ekman: Emotions are largely under the hood. Soul (2020) and the philosophy of dualism as a Greek concept Embodied souls—a colliding, intertwined, inseparable reality Understanding the instrumentality of the brain The amazing amount of goodness that Pixar has injected into the world Pete Docter on working with Amy Poehler, Tony Hale, and Maya Hawke “Our emotions are really on our team.” Fear as a dominant emotion for the era we live in Joy vs Sadness or Joy vs Fear How Pete Docter's faith informs his approach to Inside Out “One other little bit of research we did that I was shocked by is that there's apparently a part of your brain that lights up especially when you watch animation.”

“Reconciliation and reparations were never supposed to be two opposite things.” The Church is called to be a repairer of the breach. Drawing on the prophetic texts of Isaiah and Nehemiah, Brenda Salter McNeil joins Mark to discuss her latest book: Empowered to Repair: Becoming People Who Mend Broken Systems and Heal Our Communities. Together they reflect on the Church's responsibility for social justice; the call to engage politics for the common good; the nature of systemic injustice and systemic change; empowerment and mutual investment in change; and the importance of moving closer to injustice in order to become a “repairer of the breach.” Brenda Salter McNeil is a leader in the international movement for peace and reconciliation. She is an Associate Professor of reconciliation studies in the School of Theology at Seattle Pacific University, where she also directs the Reconciliation Studies program. She also serves on the pastoral staff of Quest Church in Seattle, WA. She is the author of numerous books on Christianity, reconciliation, and racial justice. Follower her @RevDocBrenda. AB Mark introduces Brenda Salter McNeil Learn more about Empowered to Repair: Becoming People Who Mend Broken Systems and Heal Our Communities Isaiah 58 and “As If Worship” Isaiah 58:11-12—“And the Lord will guide you continually and satisfy your desire in scorched places and make your bones strong and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water whose waters do not fail. And your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt. You shall raise up the foundations of many generations. You shall be called the repairer of the breach, the restorer of streets to dwell in. Repair and reparations Brian Stevenson: “Real reparations would mean to repair what was actually broken.” “We want to see justice. We want to see change. … Reconciliation and reparations were never supposed to be two opposite things.” Why the Old Testament prophetic book of Nehemiah is relevant to the church in this political moment: “I wanted to use a narrative in scripture that showed us how do you actually organize people. That it's not just enough to preach about it on Sundays, there's a way that we've got to bring a diverse coalition of people together and show them that we can rebuild what is broken around us.” “How do we retain our identity and our dignity?” How asking the right questions can generate empathy and motivate action Nehemiah's Prayer of Confession Honest confession, just telling the truth Brenda's son Omari's social post: “We are always left saddened but not shocked. This will happen again. Another black queen or king doing what should be considered a regular activity will be killed just because. Black people will express outrage while everyone else will continue on relatively unchanged. We'll exclaim, hashtag Black Lives Matter, and we will get countless comments about, What about all lives matter? I'm looking at you, white evangelical churches. The shock will wear off for the rest of the world and we'll be left to rebuild again by ourselves. This cycle is so ingrained in the Black American narrative that we have learned to quickly spring into actionable next steps because we've done this before and we will do it again. We've had no choice but to normalize the trauma and carry on. So to those who wonder, I have no hope that I or my future children will ever live in a world that is quote unquote equal or totally safe or fair, even though I will always fight for it. Sadly for me and so many others, I lost that dream as a little boy.” Our own humanity is being diminished in every act of injustice Is systemic change possible? Individualistic vs communal lenses The need to get proximate to injustice in order to become a repairer When does proximity help? What causes proximity to stick and create change? Empowerment and mutual investment The work of justice is ultimately God's work Fannie Lou Hamer's activism James Baldwin: “I can't believe what you say, because I see what you do.” Doing what we say “We might not change everything, but in our little corner of the world, we can make a difference in that spot and people get to see a glimpse of the kingdom. And that's life changing.” About Brenda Salter McNeil Brenda Salter McNeil is a teacher, preacher, and leader in the international movement for peace and reconciliation. Her mission is to inspire, equip and empower emerging Christian leaders to be practitioners of reconciliation in their various spheres of influence. She is an Associate Professor of reconciliation studies in the School of Theology at Seattle Pacific University, where she also directs the Reconciliation Studies program. She also serves on the pastoral staff of Quest Church in Seattle, WA. Dr. Brenda is recognized internationally as one of the foremost leaders of reconciliation and was featured as one of the 50 most influential women to watch by Christianity Today. She is the author of Roadmap to Reconciliation 2.0, A Credible Witness: Reflections on Power, Evangelism and Race (2008), The Heart of Racial Justice: How Soul Change Leads to Social Change (2005), coauthored with Rick Richardson, *Becoming Brave: Finding the Courage to Pursue Racial Justice Now,* and her latest book, Empowered to Repair: Becoming People Who Mend Broken Systems and Heal Our Communities.

Anne Snyder joins Mark to discuss the need for deeper listening in the work of genuine encounter and exchange in public life. They reflect on the contributions of public theology to contemporary life, the values of Christian humanism, and the mission and vision of Comment magazine. They also announce an exciting new partnership between Conversing and Comment. Anne Snyder is the editor-in-chief of Comment magazine, which is a core publication of Cardus, a think tank devoted to renewing North American social architecture, rooted in two thousand years of Christian social thought. Visit https://comment.org/ for more information. For years, Anne has been engaged in concerns for the social architecture of the world. That is, the way that our practices of social engagement, life, conversation, discussion, debate, and difference can all be held in the right kind of ways for the sake of the thriving of people, individuals, communities, and our nation at large. Anne also oversees our Comment's partner project, Breaking Ground, and is the host of The Whole Person Revolution podcast and co-editor of Breaking Ground: Charting Our Future in a Pandemic Year (2022).

Uli Chi and Mark discuss Uli's new book, "The Wise Leader," and how wisdom manifests in various contexts, from leadership roles to everyday life. Uli Chi has spent his life practicing leadership in the intersection of for-profit and nonprofit businesses, the theological academy, and the local church. Uli serves as board chair of the Virginia Mason Franciscan Health System. He is vice chair and senior fellow at the De Pree Center and a fellow at the Center for Faithful Business at Seattle Pacific University. Uli serves on the faculty for Regent College's MA in leadership, theology, and society.

Shirley Mullen talks about the work of intentional engagement in our polarized contexts and advocates for actively bridging divides in our society. Shirley Mullen is president emerita of Houghton College, where she served for 15 years, and author of Claiming the Courageous Middle: Daring to Live and Work Together for a More Hopeful Future.  

W. Thomas Boyce discusses new research on sensitivity and resilience in childhood development and talks about how learning to see our children well helps them flourish and thrive. W. Thomas Boyce is a pediatrician, professor emeritus of pediatrics and psychiatry at UC San Francisco, and author of The Orchid and the Dandelion: Why Some Children Struggle and How All Can Thrive.