Podcasts about mozcon

Book a call with Justin on how to get into⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ business video podcasting ⁠In this episode, Andy Crestodina, CMO and Co-Founder of Orbit Media, unpacks the smartest ways B2B marketers can leverage AI today—without falling for the hype. He introduces the concept of AI-powered gap analysis, a high-impact, underutilized tactic for improving website conversions by identifying what your pages are missing through the eyes of your audience. Andy also explores the rise of “non-human visitors”—AI agents that browse websites like humans—and what that means for SEO, conversion strategy, and digital PR. With his signature clarity and practical insights, Andy makes a compelling case for why marketers must adapt now to stay relevant in the age of AI.Guest BioAndy Crestodina is the Co-Founder and Chief Marketing Officer at Orbit Media, an award-winning digital agency specializing in SEO, content strategy, and visitor psychology.With over 20 years of experience, Andy has helped more than 1,000 businesses grow their visibility and generate leads through smarter digital strategy. He's the author of Content Chemistry (now in its 7th edition) and has published more than 600 articles on content marketing, analytics, and AI.A sought-after speaker, Andy delivers up to 100 talks each year at major conferences like Content Marketing World and MozCon. He also teaches at Northwestern University and Harbour.Space University.Beyond marketing, Andy is deeply committed to giving back. He co-founded Chicago Cause, a philanthropic initiative that has donated over $700,000 in digital services to nonprofits, and he's a certified Treekeeper with Openlands.TakeawaysAI-powered gap analysis is one of the most valuable and underutilized tools in B2B marketing today.Visual hierarchy matters—screenshots often outperform text or links when prompting AI for page feedback.Marketers must now optimize websites for AI agents, not just human users.A new layer of SEO and digital PR is emerging: training the bots to recommend your brand.Human connection, storytelling, and opinion will become the ultimate differentiators in a world of generic AI content.AI tools can still make factual and contextual mistakes—validation remains critical.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Andy Crestodina & Orbit Media01:15 Reflecting on changes in marketing over 2 years02:25 AI-powered gap analysis and why it's a game changer05:40 How to feed pages to AI for better analysis07:16 Visual hierarchy, screenshots, and conversion copy08:34 Limitations of AI when analyzing user experience09:26 Preparing your site for non-human AI visitors11:13 Agentic AI: bots evaluating your site like humans13:02 Making your site agent-friendly for future automation16:00 AI's impact on the software and startup ecosystem18:30 The risks of inaccurate AI bios and brand representation20:30 How to get AI to recommend your company22:29 Why podcasts and digital PR are now SEO tools23:45 What AI can't do: story, opinion, emotion, and connection25:37 Little Life Moments vs Large Language Models26:52 Closing thoughts on marketing in the age of AILinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Andy on LinkedIn here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Justin on LinkedIn here⁠

Luke Carthy started his eCommerce career client side, then after being invited to speak at MozCon 2019 he decided to go at it alone. He now spends his days helping his clients deliver sustainable eCommerce growth with SEO and CRO. Which at the moment includes ME – yes Luke has spent the summer helping me with the eCommerceTech.io rebuild – making sure our SEO, analytics, and cookie stuff is bang on. In this episode, we discuss: The complexity of attribution marketing Why focusing on single channels will no longer work Using first-party data and tools to improve accuracy Dive in: [05:53] Early warning system indicates analytics tracking issues. [09:10] Apple stricter on data-sharing; makes attribution complex. [10:58] Privacy changes, Google Analytics updates, economic shift impacts. [17:46] First user channel indicates initial site discovery. [21:02] Consider all attribution models in customer journey. [24:05] User ID helps unify multi-device user data. [27:11] Attribution report reveals complex, multi-touchpoint conversion process. [30:02] Insider Tips from Luke! Find the notes here: https://keepopt.com/226Get your 30 Day Aimerce Free Trial >>> https://keepopt.com/aimerce ****Get all the links and resources we mention & join our email list at https://keepopt.comLove the show? Chloe would love your feedback - leave a review here: https://keepopt.com/review or reply to the episode Q&A on Spotify.Interested in being a Sponsor? go here: https://keepopt.com/sponsor

Many people aspire to progress into a leadership role - but how do you know if it is the right role for you?In this episode Tazmin talks to Miracle Inameti-Archibong about transitioning into a managerial role, what skills you need to be good for the role and how to establish if it this is the right career path for you to take.About Miracle:Miracle is Head of Search at John Lewis Finance with over a decade of experience helping Global and National brand increase their visibility. She brings a strong commercial acumen, natural drive, and passion for people to her work.She has contributed to events, webinars, and publications from Brighton SEO, MOZCON, SMX, Search Engine Land, and Women in Tech SEO, among others. Where to find Miracle:@mira_inam on Twitter Miracle's Website Miracle Inameti-Archibong on LinkedInAbout 'The SEO Mindset' PodcastBuild your inner confidence and thrive.The SEO Mindset is a weekly podcast that will give you actionable tips, guidance and advice to help you not only build your inner confidence but to also thrive in your career.Each week we will cover topics specific to careers in the SEO industry but also broader topics too including professional and personal development.Your hosts are Life Coach Tazmin Suleman and SEO Manager Sarah McDowell, who between them have over 20 years of experience working in the industry.Sign up to be a guest on the podcast here.Get in touchWe'd love to hear from you. We have many ways that you can reach out to us to say hello, ask a question, or suggest a topic for us to discuss on a future episode.Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Instagram Follow us on LinkedIn Send us an emailCheck out Tazmin's Website Check out Sarah's Website Click here to download your copy of our free 'Growth versus Fixed Mindset' ebook.Click here to sign up for our newsletter to receive news and updates from the podcast eg latest episodes, events, competitions etc. We will never spam and you can unsubscribe at anytime.Check out all episodes: The SEO Mindset Podcast website Subscribe and never miss an episode: Listen to The SEO Mindset Podcast Resources used for episodeHow's Work? with Esther Perel | Podcast on SpotifyImportance of EQ in our Careers with Ammar Farishta | The SEO Mindset Podcast - The SEO Mindset PodcastCopyright 2024 Sarah & Tazmin Mentioned in this episode:Clear Narrative MediaLooking to create awareness, build visibility and enhance growth for your business,...

JH Scherck is a growth consultant known for his expertise in developing effective content strategies for SaaS companies. He previously worked for companies like WP Engine and Docsend before striking out on his own with his SEO and content strategy agency, Growth Plays. JH is a wealth of knowledge about B2B marketing strategies, audience development, and SEO. Check out the full podcast to learn more about: (00:00) Introduction (01:47) Early career mistakes (11:34) Why targeting zero-volume keywords makes zero sense (15:54) How to market a product with no search demand (20:08) Owned vs earned media (26:46) Brand vs personal brand for social media (37:25) What is a community and how do you build one? (42:58) Why should you attend industry events? (51:07) Facilitating connections at events (55:39) When is marketing attribution useful? (01:11:31) Why AI will encourage uniqueness in marketing Where to find JH: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhtscherck/ X: https://x.com/JHTScherck Website: https://growthplays.com/ Where to find Tim: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timsoulo/ X: https://x.com/timsoulo Website: https://www.timsoulo.com/ Referenced: Docsend: https://www.docsend.com/ WP Engine: https://wpengine.com/ Salesforce: Marc Benioff: https://x.com/benioff Drift: https://www.drift.com/ Dave Gerhardt: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davegerhardt/ Alex Poulos: https://www.linkedin.com/in/poulos/ MozCon: https://moz.com/mozcon Rand Fishkin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randfishkin/ Sparktoro article (Provable Marketing Attribution Is a Boondoggle): https://sparktoro.com/blog/provable-marketing-attribution-is-a-boondoggle-trust-your-gut-instead/ Orbit: https://orbit.love/ Orbit model of community: https://orbit.love/model Olivier Pomel (CEO of DataDog): https://www.linkedin.com/in/olivierpomel/ Mattermark: https://mattermark.com/ Danielle Morill: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellemorrill/ Patrick Stox: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickstox/ https://x.com/patrickstox Joshua Hardwick: https://x.com/JoshuaCHardwick Ryan Law: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thinkingslow/ https://x.com/thinking_slow Jason Cohen (WP Engine): https://x.com/asmartbear Ross Hudgens: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosshudgens/ Wil Reynolds: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilreynolds/ Hubspot: https://www.hubspot.com/ PubCon: https://www.pubcon.com/ Dmitry Gerasymenko: https://x.com/botsbreeder

In this episode of 'Content in the Kitchen,' host Ashley Sagura explores the recent Google algorithm leak and its implications for SEOs and content creators. The episode covers the major revelations from leaked documents, including unexpected factors influencing search rankings like NavBoost, user experience metrics, content relevance, and more.Ashley also discusses the SEO community's reactions and provides actionable strategies for navigating these changes. Additionally, the episode addresses AI overviews in search results, offering insights into how content marketers can adapt to maintain visibility. Listen in for a comprehensive breakdown of the key takeaways from the Google leak and AI overviews.Subscribe now for your weekly dose of content wisdom, direct from the content marketing experts to your kitchen table.Website:https://contentyum.com/Socials:https://www.instagram.com/contentyumm/https://www.linkedin.com/company/contentyumhttps://www.tiktok.com/@contentyumhttps://www.facebook.com/contentyummhttps://www.youtube.com/@Content-YumShow Notes: Google Algorithm Leak by iPullRank: https://ipullrank.com/google-algo-leak? Rand Fishkin at MozCon: https://www.searchenginejournal.com/rand-fishkin-at-mozcon-rethinking-strategies-amid-google-api-leak/518504/ SparkToro Blog on Google API Leak: https://sparktoro.com/blog/an-anonymous-source-shared-thousands-of-leaked-google-search-api-documents-with-me-everyone-in-seo-should-see-them/ Dejan Marketing Blog: https://dejanmarketing.com/i-have-one-thing-to-say/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1tSzrr4k19zhq05DpctAg7_ACZg9-6Tipz-Jg3A0Osggx1oPPBM0I_YFg_aem_AdxjdwwF-SAuhthuNeC3N5AlcG0Hf6ZdFcElaoHKeYAGwqujXi_YFB8vs7Jra4N-5W5l8MQ6rKP11sxO6xJL3C9- The Verge Article on Google Algorithm Documents Leak: https://www.theverge.com/2024/5/29/24167407/google-search-algorithm-documents-leak-confirmation YouTube Discussion on the Leak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS4_JH-QqSg&t=2576s

In this episode of MozPod, discover how you can transform your agency from marketing generalist to specialist! Dive into a conversation between Aaron Rudman-Hawkins of Evergreen Agency and your host, Chima Mmeje, as they discuss managing risks, strategic decision-making, and attracting new clients with creative content solutions. This episode is sponsored by MozCon, the leading SEO conference where you'll learn how to become a better search marketer.  Grab a ticket at https://mz.cm/podcast to secure your spot now! ************************************** A very special thank you to our guest Aaron Rudman-Hawkins! https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronrudmanhawkins https://theevergreenagency.co.uk *************************************** ADDITIONAL MOZ RESOURCES: 30-day Moz Pro Free Trial ► https://mz.cm/3jZq3p3 Check out Moz Local ► https://mz.cm/36Pbz7h Learn about STAT ► https://mz.cm/2IiqTzf Watch Moz Webinar ► https://mz.cm/3TgJgGK *************************************** STAY IN TOUCH: Moz ► https://mz.cm/30QvHCm Facebook ► https://www.facebook.com/moz X/Twitter ► https://twitter.com/Moz LinkedIn ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/moz Instagram ► https://www.instagram.com/moz_hq/

In today's episode of the Internet Marketing Podcast we're joined by Areej AbuAli and Kirsty Hulse to talk about building successful communities. We discuss their hugely popular in-person live events – Women in Tech SEO and Confidence Live - and discuss the challenges and rewards of the online communities that sit alongside them. If you're keen to know more about nurturing communities and the insider view on the realities of event organising, this episode is for you.In this episode:00:30 The origins and mission of Confidence Live, focusing on giving back to the community and maintaining not-for-profit status.10:15 Charting the organic growth of Women in Tech SEO and responding to community demands in building the organisation.13:08 Exploring the formation of engaged communities.16:48 The challenges of running in person events – maintaining integrity and comercialisation. Resources mentioned in this episode:https://self-compassion.org/ https://freelancecoalition.org/ More about our guests:Areej is a seasoned industry speaker and the proud creator of Women in Tech SEO, a global community of women in Technical SEO and marketing. WTS was founded in May 2019 and has since grown to more than 7,000 global members and 40,000 followers. Areej has spoken at conferences such as the Festival of Marketing, BrightonSEO and MozCon.Connect with Areej here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/areejabuali/https://www.womenintechseo.com/ Kirsty Hulse is an award-winning Confidence Coach, motivational speaker, and the creator of Confidence Live, a 1000 delegate conference that attracts some of the world's leading speakers & wellbeing experts. She has trained 40,000+ people in companies like LinkedIn, Amazon and Spotify and has spoken in over 30 countries. Connect with Kirsty here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirsty-hulse/https://www.confidencelive.com/ To find out more about us and the show visit https://internetmarketingpodcast.orgLike and subscribe so you never miss an episode, and leave us a comment if you enjoyed the show. Connect with us if you'd like to work with us, you'd like to feature on the podcast, or you have a guest or topic recommendation. Email kelvin@brightonseo.com or…https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelvinnewman/https://twitter.com/kelvinnewman Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Paul David, co-founder and CEO of Literal Humans, joins MozPod to discuss what led them to implementing compressed hours over a four-day workweek. Diving into the initial challenges, and how they addressed them and adjusted course along the way. If you're wondering if a four-day workweek could benefit your agency, this episode is packed with advice to guide your journey. Agencies are fast-paced, with employees juggling multiple roles, so a four-day workweek sounds risky when there's already too much to do. Will productivity suffer? How will it affect employee retention and client satisfaction? This episode of MozPod explores these critical questions, revealing how a London-based digital marketing agency embraced a four-day workweek and the resulting impact. This episode is sponsored by MozCon, the leading SEO conference where you'll learn how to become a better search marketer. Grab a ticket at https://mz.cm/podcast to secure your spot now! *************************************** More about employee wellbeing on the Moz Blog: https://moz.com/blog/employee-wellbeing More on our guest Paul David https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauldavid-lh https://literalhumans.com/ Additional Moz Resources: 30-day Moz Pro Free Trial ► https://mz.cm/3jZq3p3 Check out Moz Local ► https://mz.cm/36Pbz7h Learn about STAT ► https://mz.cm/2IiqTzf Watch Moz Webinar ► https://mz.cm/3TgJgGK *************************************** STAY IN TOUCH: Moz ► https://mz.cm/30QvHCm

In this episode of MozPod, Chima Mmeje talks with Donna Bloss Gleize and Miracle Inameti-Archibong about the intertwining worlds of motherhood and work life balance. As they share their daily balancing act between strategic planning sessions and school runs, the conversation reveals the raw realities of striving for professional growth while nurturing a family. From the chaos of morning routines to navigating the challenges of returning to work post-maternity leave, they offer a glimpse into the resilience and adaptability required to thrive in both domains. This episode, "Pursuits and Potty Breaks: Navigating Motherhood as a Marketing Leader," isn't just about the hurdles; it's filled with moments of triumph, candid stories, and the shared understanding that, in the quest to balance personal and professional life, embracing the unpredictable is perhaps the most valuable strategy. Join us for an episode that delves into the heart of what it means to lead with empathy, both at home and in the workplace, and discover why sometimes, the most powerful leadership lessons come from the art of motherhood itself. ***************************************  This episode is sponsored by MozCon, the leading SEO conference where you'll learn how to become a better search marketer.  Grab a ticket at https://mz.cm/podcast to secure your spot now! ***************************************  Additional Moz Resources:  30-day Moz Pro Free Trial ► https://mz.cm/3jZq3p3   Check out Moz Local  ► https://mz.cm/36Pbz7h Learn about STAT ► https://mz.cm/2IiqTzf Watch Moz Webinar ► https://mz.cm/3TgJgGK ***************************************  STAY IN TOUCH:  Moz ► https://mz.cm/30QvHCm Facebook ►   / moz   Twitter ►   / moz   LinkedIn ►   / moz   Instagram ►   / moz_hq  

Scaling a startup is a tough challenge. As a founder, you may need help with cash flow issues, team burnout, and finding your customer base. But could a marketer's touch be the secret to taking your startup from zero to £1m MRR? In this episode of MozPod, we discuss how a marketer can make all the difference in helping you find product-market fit, acquire your first 100 customers, and reach your first million in revenue. Rod Richmond is a serial entrepreneur and CMO with a unique approach to startup growth. If you're a startup founder or growth-focused entrepreneur, this episode will give you actionable advice on tackling your scaling problems and reaching your business goals. Find out more about the next MozPod episodes https://moz.com/mozpod Get to know out guest, Rod Richmond: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rod-richmond This episode is sponsored by MozCon, the leading SEO conference where you'll learn how to become a better search marketer.  Grab a ticket at https://mz.cm/podcast to secure your spot now! ***************************************  Additional Moz Resources:  30-day Moz Pro Free Trial ► https://mz.cm/3jZq3p3   Check out Moz Local  ► https://mz.cm/36Pbz7h Learn about STAT ► https://mz.cm/2IiqTzf Watch Moz Webinar ► https://mz.cm/3TgJgGK ***************************************  STAY IN TOUCH:  Moz ► https://mz.cm/30QvHCm

Dave is joined by Talia Wolf, CEO and Founder of Getuplift. Talia was recently listed as one of the most influential experts in conversion optimization. She's trained companies all over the world and has taught on stages such as Google, MozCon, CTAconf, Search Love, and many more. They discuss things likeSelling with emotional benefits over feature listsHow to use the stages of awareness to lead customers through the conversion funnelHow to do research that informs your conversion strategyUsing AI to create content that'll resonate with website visitorsTimestamps(00:00) - - The Pitfalls of Traditional Agencies (07:43) - - Building Successful Careers (11:21) - - The Importance of Understanding Emotion in Digital Conversion Optimization (15:57) - - The Science Behind Emotions (20:03) - - Messaging tips (23:18) - - Uncovering Emotions through Customer Interviews and Surveys (28:43) - - Research and Specific Questions in Optimization (32:17) - - The Importance of User Awareness in Conversion (37:09) - - Guiding the Buyer's Journey: Crafting Purposeful Homepages for Multi-Stage Awareness (41:08) - - Convincing Customers in 3 Seconds (42:55) - - Navigation and Client Segmentation (47:29) - - Efficiency and Inspiration with ChatGPT (48:48) - - The Core of Conversion Journeys Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by PharosIQ. In 2024, you face tougher pipeline challenges than ever: reduced budgets, tighter resources, and fewer active buyers. Yet your growth goals remain unchanged.  PharosIQ leverages down-funnel intent signals along with targeted demand solutions to help you build your pipeline efficiently. They help B2B marketing leaders reach their ideal buyers and generate leads that actually convert for businesses of all sizes.  Generating leads is easy; generating leads that convert is what separates PharosIQ from the competition. Check them out at PharosIQ.com/exitfive; book a meeting with their team …PLUS, their team is giving away memberships to Exit Five so go check out their website that's P-H-A-R-O-S-I-Q dot com slash exitfive one word right now. ***Thanks to my friends at hatch.fm for producing this episode and handling all of the Exit Five podcast production.They give you unlimited podcast editing and strategy for your B2B podcast.Get unlimited podcast editing and on-demand strategy for one low monthly cost. Just upload your episode, and they take care of the rest.Visit hatch.fm to learn more

Lidia Infante is Head of SEO at SurveyMonkey. Lidia has over a decade of marketing experience and a strong focus on SEO and content strategy. She also LOVES data. In this episode we discuss one tip that can boost your career and finding a partner by applying marketing principles to dating. Recommendations Andi writing for JP Castlin's Strategy in Praxis blog about storytelling Red and blue ocean strategy in HBR Never split the difference by Chris Voss LondonSEOXL - use code Andi20 to get 20% off a ticket Lidia Infante Lidia holds a BSc in Psychology and a Master's in Digital Business, she has made her mark at companies such as Sanity.io, BigCommerce, and Rise At Seven. Lidia is recognized as a leading voice in the SEO community. She is an exceptional SEO speaker, regularly featured at top-tier events such as MozCon, BrightonSEO, or WTSFest. She often writes about SEO trends and best practices for Moz, Search Engine Journal, and the Wix SEO Hub. Strategy Sessions Host - Andi Jarvis If you have any questions or want to talk about anything that was discussed in the show, the best place to get me is on LinkedIn or Instagram. Make sure you subscribe to get the podcast directly or sign up for it here to have it emailed when it's released. If you enjoyed the show, please give it a 5* rating.

ClickSlice's founder, Joshua George, shares his inspiring journey from earning just £7 an hour to building a seven-figure SEO agency. He discusses signing his first agency client, scaling his business to 7 figures during challenging times of COVID-19. Don't miss out on Joshua's wisdom and experience as he navigates the world of SEO with passion, authenticity, and a commitment to continuous growth. This episode is a must-listen for anyone trying to scale an agency and achieve extraordinary success. This episode is sponsored by MozCon, the leading SEO conference where you'll learn how to become a better search marketer. Grab a ticket at https://mz.cm/podcast to secure your spot now! *************************************** Additional Moz Resources: 30-day Moz Pro Free Trial ► https://mz.cm/3jZq3p3 Check out Moz Local ► https://mz.cm/36Pbz7h Learn about STAT ► https://mz.cm/2IiqTzf Watch Moz Webinar ► https://mz.cm/3TgJgGK *************************************** STAY IN TOUCH: Moz ► https://mz.cm/30QvHCm Facebook ► https://www.facebook.com/moz X/Twitter ► https://twitter.com/Moz LinkedIn ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/moz Instagram ► https://www.instagram.com/moz_hq/

Neuromarketer and ice skater Giulia Panozzo shares her journey from psychobiology to SEO and how ice skating complements her marketing skills. Dive into how neuromarketing can enhance customer engagement and discover insights from her experience balancing dual careers. Tune in if you're curious about applying neuromarketing principles, navigating a multi-faceted career path, or seeking inspiration on integrating personal interests with professional growth. This episode is sponsored by MozCon, the leading SEO conference where you'll learn how to become a better search marketer.  Grab a ticket at https://mz.cm/podcast to secure your spot now! ***************************************  Additional Moz Resources:  30-day Moz Pro Free Trial ► https://mz.cm/3jZq3p3   Check out Moz Local  ► https://mz.cm/36Pbz7h Learn about STAT ► https://mz.cm/2IiqTzf Watch Moz Webinar ► https://mz.cm/3TgJgGK ***************************************  STAY IN TOUCH:  Moz ► https://mz.cm/30QvHCm Facebook ► https://www.facebook.com/moz X/Twitter ► https://twitter.com/Moz LinkedIn ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/moz Instagram ► https://www.instagram.com/moz_hq/

In numerous companies, the approach to content strategy appears to be nonexistent, marked by haphazard content creation and dissemination. A notable absence of a cohesive plan to align content with overarching marketing objectives is evident, leading to a disjointed and less effective approach. In light of these challenges, it becomes imperative for companies to recognize the critical significance of implementing a robust content strategy. The upcoming discussion will delve into a methodology that not only addresses these shortcomings but also promises to elevate content creation to a level where flawlessness becomes a tangible outcome. As we navigate through the intricacies of this approach, you will discover how a well-crafted content strategy can serve as the linchpin for achieving marketing goals and fostering a more impactful and cohesive online presence. Purna Virji is a globally recognized content strategist. She grew up in India, when her family came to the US they settled in  Philadelphia. She did her masters at Cardiff University, but returned to Philadelphia where she was a journalist and then a producer at the local TV affiliate for PBS. That experience is where She picked up expertise in creating content. She ported this communications flair into designing Pay Per Click ad campaigns for ecommerce companies and then when Microsoft's own ads platform needed a trainer, she transitioned to working there, training both internal Microsoft teams and external groups on Microsoft ads. She went on to speak at conferences like MozCon and SMX Advanced and was ranked as the #1 Most Influential Expert in the world by PPC Hero.   She is currently the Principal Consultant for Content Solutions at LinkedIn. In 2023 she came out with the book “High Impact Content Marketing” which we'll talk about today.   Timestamps/Chapters: 0:00:00 - Intro 00:02:42 - Welcome Purna 00:10:32 - the AGES model 00:20:38 - PSA 00:21:46 - Practical tips for high Impact content 00:35:26 - Identifying what your audience's needs are 00:46:41 - Where to get book; contact Purna For all the people, products and concepts mentioned, go to Episode 187's page on the Funnel Reboot site. 

Content Warning: This episode discusses sensitive topics such as sexual assault, and workplace harassment. Viewer discretion is advised. In this episode of MozPod, Chima Mmeje discusses with guests Myriam Jessier and Kari DePhillips their personal decisions behind choosing a child-free lifestyle. Together they reflect on societal expectations and varied reactions from peers and family. This discussion extends into their SEO journeys, touching upon their experiences with sexual harassment in the workplace and the impact of personal choices on professional pathways. We acknowledge the sensitive nature of topics discussed, including mentions of sexual harassment. Listener discretion is advised. ***************************************  This episode is sponsored by MozCon, the leading SEO conference where you'll learn how to become a better search marketer.  Grab a ticket at https://mz.cm/podcast to secure your spot now! ***************************************  Additional Moz Resources:  30-day Moz Pro Free Trial ► https://mz.cm/3jZq3p3   Check out Moz Local  ► https://mz.cm/36Pbz7h Learn about STAT ► https://mz.cm/2IiqTzf Watch Moz Webinar ► https://mz.cm/3TgJgGK ***************************************  STAY IN TOUCH:  Moz ► https://mz.cm/30QvHCm Facebook ► https://www.facebook.com/moz X/Twitter ► https://twitter.com/Moz LinkedIn ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/moz Instagram ► https://www.instagram.com/moz_hq/

In this inaugural episode of MozPod with Chima Mmeje, Areej Abuli, the founder of the Women in Tech SEO Community, discusses why safe spaces matter for women in tech SEO. She shares her inspiration for starting the WTS Community, challenges, and best memories. This conversation provides valuable lessons and perspectives for those thinking of building a community and for founders who want to foster a more inclusive workplace. This episode is sponsored by MozCon, the leading SEO conference where you'll learn how to become a better search marketer. Grab a ticket at https://mz.cm/podcast to secure your spot now! *************************************** Additional Moz Resources: 30-day Moz Pro Free Trial ► https://mz.cm/3jZq3p3 Check out Moz Local ► https://mz.cm/36Pbz7h Learn about STAT ► https://mz.cm/2IiqTzf Watch Moz Webinar ► https://mz.cm/3TgJgGK *************************************** STAY IN TOUCH: Moz ► https://mz.cm/30QvHCm Facebook ► https://www.facebook.com/moz X/Twitter ► https://twitter.com/Moz LinkedIn ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/moz Instagram ► https://www.instagram.com/moz_hq/

Ola King started his career as a music producer, learning SEO along the way to help promote his songs and score millions of views. In addition to hosting several MozCon events, Ola practiced as a UX Researcher at Moz before transitioning into independent consulting. Search experience optimization is more valuable than ever before. Discover what metrics to be most attentive to when prioritizing UX, and learn why user experience is key to achieving sustainable SEO this week on the EDGE!    Key Segments: [00:03:45] Introducing Ola King [00:05:27] Ola's Rise into the Industry [00:17:34] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:18:20] AI's Role in Search [00:21:38] Is SEO Dead?  [00:26:03] Prioritizing User Experience [00:32:345] EDGE of The Web Sponsor: Wix  [00:33:46] What Role Does User Experience Play in Determining Content's Helpfulness?  [00:34:46] What Metrics Should you Focus on to Grow Search Experience? Thanks to Our Sponsors! Site Strategics: http://edgeofthewebradio.com/site   Hostinger: https://edgeofthewebradio.com/hostinger Wix: http://edgeofthewebradio.com/wix Follow Our Guest Twitter: https://twitter.com/justolaking LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olaking

Talia Wolf, Founder of GetUplift, shares her emotional targeting for increasing conversions. Download the free powerups cheatsheet: https://marketingpowerups.com/046/

Andy Crestodina is the co-founder and Chief Marketing Officer of Orbit Media, an award-winning 50-person digital agency in Chicago. Over the past 20 years, Andy has provided digital marketing advice to 1000+ businesses. Andy has written 500+ articles on content strategy, search engine optimization, visitor psychology, Analytics, and most recently, AI. These articles reach more than three million readers each year. He also authored Content Chemistry: The Illustrated Handbook for Content Marketing. Andy gives up to 100 webinars and presentations annually and is a frequent repeat speaker at many of the top national marketing conferences. Top 100 Influencers in Content Marketing (#3), SEMrush Top 50 B2B Content Marketing Influencers (#3), TopRank Top 100 Digital Marketing Influencers, Brand24 Top 10 Online Marketing Experts to Watch, Forbes  Top 50 Marketing Influencer, Entrepreneur Magazine Top 20 Content Marketing Thought Leaders, Alexa Top 25 Content Marketers, Buzzsumo Top 10 Social Media Influencers to Watch, Social Media Explorer 3x Inc 5000 Winner Andy gives up to 100 presentations per year and is a frequent repeat speaker at many of the top conferences:  Content Marketing World (8x), Social Media Marketing World (6x), Call to Action Conference (5x), Marketing Profs B2B Forum (5x), Content Jam (8x), MozCon (3x), WordCamp, Social Media Success Summit (5x) and SXSW Andy's articles are read by more than three million people each year. His videos have half a million views. His book, Content Chemistry, isn't quite as popular. It has sold around 4,000 copies. But it's good.  Don't forget to register for my final FREE LinkedIn Workshop of the year here: https://networkacademy.kartra.com/page/linkedincontentthatsells

Erin Moore shares the key themes from MozCon 2023 and why going back to basics is a winning strategy.Erin More, TREW's Account Director, attended MozCon this year to bring back all the latest industry news on Search Engine Optimization (SEO). If you're a marketer or a practitioner of SEO specifically, you know how much things have changed in the last few years and even months in the world of SEO and search rank strategy. According to Erin, there were 4 big themes from MozCon 2023: Search is a lot more than Google searchThe way google interprets information and feeds you information has changedThe way SEOs understand search is changingGoogle has been evolving constantly with AIErin explains each of these themes and how marketers can make some key changes to their SEO strategies in order to build authority and lean into brand recognition - two key strategies SEOs are turning to for success in the future.ResourcesConnect with Erin Moore on LinkedInLearn more about MozConSEO Series Part 1: The Evolving Search Landscape of 2023SEP Series Part 2: Taking a Conversion-Focused Approach to SEOConnect with TREW Marketing Learn About TREW Marketing Order the book! Content Marketing, EngineeredConnect with WendyTREW Marketing is a strategy-first content marketing agency serving industrial companies that target highly technical buyers. With deep experience in electronics, test and automation, software, and engineering services, TREW Marketing helps clients build trust and generate demand.

We're back in business as Mordy makes his return for this episode of the news! This past week Moz held MozCon, unveiling Brand Authority Metric to enable businesses to measure their brand's strength. Google wants all published content to be available to AI for training purposes…how is this healthy for the web? Google's stirring the pot, but we've got what you need to stay in the loop on this week's News from the EDGE! News from the EDGE: [00:05:03] Moz Launches Brand Authority Metric At MozCon With Top 500 US Brands List[00:08:05] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:09:13] Google Ranking Algorithm Research Introduces TW-BERT[00:16:20] Google says all online content should be available for AI training unless publishers opt-out[00:24:52] EDGE of the Web Sponsor: Brightlocal AI Blitz: [00:26:37] Nvidia reveals new A.I. chip, says costs of running LLMs will ‘drop significantly' AI Tools: [00:27:41] VocalReplica [00:28:43] Looka [00:29:17] EDGE of the Web Sponsor: InLinks Barry Blast from Search Engine Roundtable: [00:30:28]: Google Search Major League Baseball "Recent Featured Highlights" [00:32:54] Google: Maybe Don't Let Google Search Index Your AI Chatbot Output Thanks to our sponsors! Site Strategics https://edgeofthewebradio.com/site Brightlocal  https://edgeofthewebradio.com/brightlocal Inlinks https://edgeofthewebradio.com/inlinks Follow Us: Twitter: @ErinSparks Twitter: @MordyOberstein Twitter: @TheMann00 Twitter: @EDGEWebRadio #StandwithUkraine edgeofthewebradio.com/ukraine

Flavilla Fongang is a multi-award-winning serial entrepreneur who started her career in oil & gas, then fashion and she influenced the technology sector. She is now an international and multilingual keynote speaker (English & French).  Computer Weekly named her the number 1 most influential woman in tech in the UK among a list of more than 600 women in tech nationwide. She is a neuroscience brand expert covering strategy, design, marketing and customer experience. She is the founder of 3 Colours Rule, an award-winning branding and marketing agency. Mercedes Benz awarded Flavilla the “She's Mercedes” businesswoman award among women such as Sheryl Sandberg, the COO of Facebook. She is the author of “99 Strategies to get customers”. She is also the founder of Global Tech Advocates – Black Women in Tech, the 1st largest organisation of black professional women in tech. She published since October 2021, an annual book “The Voices In The Shadow”. A book that features stories of black women in tech and is distributed to secondary schools for FREE across the UK and Ireland. The books are now also archived at The British Library to protect their legacy. She is the enabler and is never afraid to challenge the norms. She is an Entrepreneurship Expert with the Entrepreneurship Centre for Saïd Business School, University of Oxford. She has been a keynote speaker for the most prestigious international events, such as AdWeek, HubSpot, DMWF, MozCon, AdWorld, Upgrade100, CTA, MarTech and many more. She also delivered corporate talks for the following companies: Meta, Toyota, Zoom, Levi's, Microsoft, Deloitte, Amazon, HSBC and many more   In this Episode Alicia and Flavilla discuss: The reality of Growing up black in Paris  Why the UK is a better place for Black professionals to thrive The importance of diverse representation in the media  How to have executive presence  How Flavilla built and established her brand  The best way to approach new business and sales How to make impactful changes within an organisation   Connect with Flavilla here - https://www.linkedin.com/in/flavillafongang/  See more about Flavilla here - https://www.flavillafongang.com/

In this episode, I share my Keynote presentation that I gave about the power of experimentation to the audience at MozCon, one of the leading SEO conferences in the world. I'm sure you know, consciously or subconsciously, just how powerful experimentation is. Experiments have helped us create, cure diseases, invent things like velcro, Pumpkin Spice lattes and more. So, how can you strategically experiment with your content? And one myth I want to debunk right now: Experimentation is not just for big brands. Experiments work for small and medium sized brands as well.  So, whether it's Reddit, Quora, Slideshare, Quora, or Instagram, I share some of the results of my content experiments in hopes that you too will dive into your own content experiments. Build. Ship. Learn. Decide. This framework has fundamentally allowed me to quickly ship ideas, kill ideas, and, most importantly, understand what ideas work well for my business.

Amanda Milligan talks with Jason Barnard about improve your brand authority with newsworthy content. Amanda Milligan is Head of Marketing at Stacker Studio, a new, innovative way for brands to earn media at scale. With more than a decade of experience in content, growth, and brand, her knowledge has been featured in Entrepreneur, Forbes, TechCrunch, Moz, MarketingProfs, Search Engine Land, and more, as well as at conferences like SMX, MozCon, SearchLove, BrightonSEO, State of Search, and Pubcon. To stand out in the competitive content creation market, it is critical to offer content that is unique and newsworthy. Businesses should focus on providing information that adds value and relevance to the lives of their target audience. Creating content that stands out helps brands build authority and credibility in the industry, which in turn can increase discoverability. In this fantastic episode, Amanda Milligan highlights the importance of creating original content that offers a fresh perspective. By working with authoritative sources within the industry, businesses can present information that is both new and credible, which increases their brand's reputation and provides a competitive advantage. Throughout the conversation, Amanda provides examples of different types of newsworthy content, such as case studies and testimonials, that companies can consider for their content strategies. As always, the show ends with passing the baton… Amanda sweetly passes the virtual baton to next week's awesome guest, Gaurav Sharma. What you'll learn from Amanda Milligan 00:00 Amanda Milligan and Jason Barnard  01:46 Creating Newsworthy Content 03:22 Amanda Milligan's Brand SERP on Bing 05:42 Identifying Authoritative Sources 07:54 Repeating Yourself to Educate AI Algorithms 08:30 Stacker's Brand SERP on Google 12:54 Kalicube's Three Solutions for Your Brand SERP 13:53 Brand Authority for Whom 16:19 Originality, Usefulness, and Newsworthiness 19:19 Topical VS Tangential Content 26:27 Combination of Repetition and Authoritativeness 29:26 How Can Newsworthy Content Help with Branded Search? 31:40 Passing the Baton: Amanda Milligan to Gaurav Sharma This episode was recorded live on video May 2nd 2023

Amanda Milligan talks with Jason Barnard about improve your brand authority with newsworthy content. Amanda Milligan is Head of Marketing at Stacker Studio, a new, innovative way for brands to earn media at scale. With more than a decade of experience in content, growth, and brand, her knowledge has been featured in Entrepreneur, Forbes, TechCrunch, Moz, MarketingProfs, Search Engine Land, and more, as well as at conferences like SMX, MozCon, SearchLove, BrightonSEO, State of Search, and Pubcon. To stand out in the competitive content creation market, it is critical to offer content that is unique and newsworthy. Businesses should focus on providing information that adds value and relevance to the lives of their target audience. Creating content that stands out helps brands build authority and credibility in the industry, which in turn can increase discoverability. In this fantastic episode, Amanda Milligan highlights the importance of creating original content that offers a fresh perspective. By working with authoritative sources within the industry, businesses can present information that is both new and credible, which increases their brand's reputation and provides a competitive advantage. Throughout the conversation, Amanda provides examples of different types of newsworthy content, such as case studies and testimonials, that companies can consider for their content strategies. As always, the show ends with passing the baton… Amanda sweetly passes the virtual baton to next week's awesome guest, Gaurav Sharma. What you'll learn from Amanda Milligan 00:00 Amanda Milligan and Jason Barnard  01:46 Creating Newsworthy Content 03:22 Amanda Milligan's Brand SERP on Bing 05:42 Identifying Authoritative Sources 07:54 Repeating Yourself to Educate AI Algorithms 08:30 Stacker's Brand SERP on Google 12:54 Kalicube's Three Solutions for Your Brand SERP 13:53 Brand Authority for Whom 16:19 Originality, Usefulness, and Newsworthiness 19:19 Topical VS Tangential Content 26:27 Combination of Repetition and Authoritativeness 29:26 How Can Newsworthy Content Help with Branded Search? 31:40 Passing the Baton: Amanda Milligan to Gaurav Sharma This episode was recorded live on video May 2nd 2023

Let's talk about SEO with one of the leading female voices in SEO, Lidia Infante from Sanity. Lidia Infante is an SEO consultant and speaker. She has been working in SEO for nearly a decade, helping businesses in SaaS, media and e-commerce grow online. She has a BSC in Psychology and a Master in Digital Business. Lidia is a regular speaker at top-tier SEO events such as MozCon, BrightonSEO, UnGagged or WTSFest and she often writes about SEO trends and best practices. In June 2022, she joined Sanity as Senior SEO Manager. How to connect with Lidia LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lidiainfante/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/LidiaInfanteM Website: https://www.lidia-infante.com/ Sanity: https://www.sanity.io/ https://linktr.ee/lidiainfante Follow Olga Zarr or hire Olga to help you with SEO Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/olgazarr My SEO newsletter: https://seosly.com/newsletter/ My SEO Podcast: https://seosly.com/podcast/ To learn even more, go to https://seosly.com/blog/ You can hire me: https://seosly.com/hire-me/ Want to learn more about me? Check this: https://seosly.com/seo-consultant/ Want to contact me? Feel free to reach out at olga@seosly.com The SEO Podcast by #SEOSLY is kindly sponsored by JetOctopus, an awesome cloud-based crawler and log file analyzed. Make sure to check JetOctopus and make your technical SEO easy: https://seosly.com/jetoctopus/

Dr. Marie Haynes shares her thoughts and insights on the EDGE by looking at the plethora of Google algorithm updates this year. 2022 has seen its fair share of volatility in the SERPs. In addition, she explores ways to identify and track the impacts of algorithm updates on a website, while pointing out many of the culprits responsible for misleading false positives, which may be wrongfully associated with an update. With over 10 years of SEO experience, she's a regular speaker at MozCon, Pubcon, SMX, and Brighton SEO, and a frequent contributor to many industry publications. She's the owner and President of Marie Haynes Consulting. Additionally, Dr. Marie Haynes hosts one of the top SEO podcasts, Search News You Can Use. Time to dive into Google algorithm updates… on the EDGE! Key Segments: [00:02:15] Introducing Dr. Marie Haynes  [00:04:11] Highest Levels of Continued Rank Volatility [00:05:00] Should We Be Focused On Traffic? [00:06:41] Product Review and Core Updates [00:09:11] The Compounding Impacts of Multiple Updates and Diagnoses [00:12:39] EDGE of the Web Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:13:42] Gross Traffic vs. Individual Page Traffic [00:14:32] Transactional vs. Informative Content [00:16:31] Old School SEO [00:18:12] Intent and Relevancy [00:21:41] The Helpful Content Update, Knowledge Graph and Snippets [00:23:32] Not All Traffic Changes Are From Algorithm Updates [00:27:35] MobileMoxie Tracks Historical SERP Snippets [00:28:44] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: edgeofthewebradio.com/wix [00:29:37] The Apocalypse! [00:33:16] Questions, Questions and More Questions [00:35:18] External Evidence [00:37:20] AI Content Is Likely Algorithmically Identifiable Follow our Guest: https://twitter.com/Marie_Haynes https://www.mariehaynes.com/seo-newsletter/ https://ca.linkedin.com/in/marie-haynes https://www.mariehaynes.com/ Dr. Marie Haynes' SEO Podcast https://www.mariehaynes.com/seo-newsletter/seo-podcast/ Thanks to our Sponsors! Site Strategics https://www.sitestrategics.com Wix https://edgeofthewebradio.com/wix

Crystal Carter joins the EDGE to school us on Visual Image Search. Fresh from the stage at the last MozCon, she brings her insights and expertise on visual search and AI. She delves into many of today's examples and the future outlook of visual search, all based on real-world experiments and work. You have that and some best practices and considerations all here in the podcast. We explore some of the most important things to ponder on this Crystal Carter episode. Let's talk visual search… today on the EDGE! Key Segments: [00:03:45] A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words  [00:04:37] An Evolution of Google's Mobile First [00:05:14] Image Search vs. Visual Search [00:06:45] A Rich Tapestry of Contextual Queues [00:11:31] Lyft and PBR. . . Oh My! [00:18:02] EDGE of the Web Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:13:35] AI, Visual Queues and Text Queries [00:15:02] Vision AI [00:16:23] Current Gaps and Biases [00:18:16] Pinterest Statistics and Bing [00:19:59] Rapper Xzibit and Amazon [00:20:33] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: edgeofthewebradio.com/wix [00:21:07] Google Lens and Ocular Character Recognition [00:22:46] Some Takeaways for Marketers [00:24:24] It's the Brain of Understanding / The Hive Mind [00:25:13] Images are Contextually Language-less [00:28:15] Exploring Google Photos for Entities and Defining Gaps [00:30:00] Real-World Applications to Consider [00:34:06] Consistency is the Key Follow our Guest: https://twitter.com/CrystalontheWeb https://www.instagram.com/crystalontheweb_/ https://uk.linkedin.com/in/crystal-carter-digital https://www.crystalcarterseo.com/ Crystal's Harnessing Visual Search for Optimization Opportunities! https://moz.com/blog/seo-opportunities-visual-search Thanks to our Sponsors! Wix https://edgeofthewebradio.com/wix Site Strategics https://www.sitestrategics.com 

Michael King is Founder of iPullRank, a digital marketing agency focused on SEO and Content Strategy that has generated over $1 billion dollars in incremental revenue for global brands like MGM Resorts, American Express, Etsy, Nordstrom, and Adidas. He is also known as Mic King, the musical artist/rapper. And he's also a worldwide speaker at global events such as SXSW, MozCon, SMX, Digital Summit, and Inbound. We discuss how Michael got into the SEO side of the business, how he built his own agency, how he reconciled getting a "day job" and still pursuing his musical career, and his latest album. __________ We Need To Be Doing That is a HEARTLENT Group Production https://www.weneedtobedoingthat.com

Learn what topics were trending and TREW's big takeaways from INBOUND, Content Marketing World, MozCon, The Martech Conference, and the PMM Summit.In this episode, I'm joined by several senior members of the TREW Crew to share the big trends and takeaways from conferences we each attended in Fall 2022. These included:INBOUNDContent Marketing World (CMW)MozConThe Martech ConferencePMM Summit Here are just a few of the topics we covered during the episode:Lee Chapman, TREW President, shared a key INBOUND theme of connectedness. Emerging from the isolated Covid times, marketers (and humans in general) are seeking ways to feel connected. One has a sense of this at in-person conferences, where people are more eager than ever to talk to the stranger in the next chair over, and online, where new communities are springing up as gathering places for learning and connecting. Lee's favorite presenter was Dale Bertrand from Spark and Fire who provided in-depth advice on how to diagnose and improve SEO performance. Morgan Norris, TREW Senior Brand Strategist, reports that pillar pages are still a thing! Demonstrate your expertise and help your buyers by publishing long-scrolling web pages packed with relevant, connected content. You can score high marks with Google AND with prospective buyers through this strategy. While at CMW, Morgan tried out several AI tools for content marketing, nabbed the top score at a content-themed whack-a-mole game, performed at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (sort of), and presented with yours truly during the CMW Industrial Marketing Summit. Morgan's favorite presenter was Lisa Gately from Forrester who covered thought leadership – what it is, what it isn't, and how to create a thought leadership campaign.Erin Moore, TREW Account Director, was the overachiever that fit in two conferences: MozCon and The Martech Conference. A big focus at MozCon (and INBOUND and CMW!) was Google's greater emphasis on EAT: expertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness. Partly in response to the misinformation of today's times, brands need to do more to build their authority. This might be niching further down, creating even MORE content on a subject (and tying it together with that pillar page), and publishing author bios along with blogs and articles. Erin's favorite presenter, Lily Ray from Amsive Digital, went into the background on EAT, the Google patents that she thinks went into it, and a lot of fantastic examples to showcase how Google can piece together an entity's authority.Collaboration and AI-assisted content marketing and SEO were also big topics at The Martch Conference. During the episode you'll hear Erin share an easy "hack" for figuring out trending keywords used by your target personas, so be sure to listen for that. Rounding out the five events, I attended the Product Marketing Manager Summit along with TREW client Rich Goldman from Ansys, who presented a content marketing collaboration between our two teams on a GIANT movie theater screen. About half of the sessions were themed around positioning and messaging, along with how to do content marketing at scale and ways to support sales. I had two favorite quotes, one of which “The Gartner buyer's journey is REAL, y'all” refers to just how much of a slog the long B2B technology buyer's journey can be, and pivotal ways marketing can help. For show links and more, visit the Co

Grab a FREE ticket to The Elevate Show by monday.com here. In this episode, Olivia is joined by Lidia Infante, Senior SEO Manager for Sanity.io. She's also a speaker for the likes of BrightonSEO and Mozcon as well as an author and verified on Twitter! After first meeting at a Connective3 event early in 2022, Lidia and Olivia chat all things women in marketing. Why are men twice as likely to become director? Four times as likely to become CEO? We're unpacking everything today. If you want to learn more about gender and women in marketing, give this episode a listen.

Mike's Links:OpenAI expands access to DALL-E 2, its powerful image-generating AI system - https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/20/openai-expands-access-to-dall-e-2-its-powerful-image-generating-ai-system/Ep 74: Amazon & Google pander to the FTC, American Privacy Act: Opt-In/Out Battle, Instagram goes local - https://www.nearmedia.co/ep-74/Construction worker wearing a high-vis vest with an ad for a personal injury lawyer - https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1551582109852106755Outstanding Local SEO Takeaways from MozCon 2022 - https://moz.com/blog/mozcon-2022-local-seo-insightsLocal Landing Page Checklist - https://ricketyroo.com/blog/local-landing-page-checklist/The Rising Importance Of Images In Google Search - https://ducttapemarketing.com/images-in-google-search/Aircam.ai • AI Powered Photo Checker - https://aircam.ai/google-visionStefan Somborac Messaging FAQ on Twitter - https://mobile.twitter.com/StefanSomborac/status/1549721775981953024How to read & reply to messages from your Business Profile - iPhone & iPad - Google Business Profile Help - https://support.google.com/business/answer/9114771?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DiOSGoogle Tests "Reviews Aren't Verified" Label - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-reviews-arent-verified-label-33788.htmlCarrie's LinksSpam in LSAs is rampant - Google doesn't seem to care?  - https://twitter.com/lenraleigh/status/1550557036269780993Tom Waddington shows a serp with 100 5.0 rated LSAs - mostly spam - multiple listings for same biz, etc. - https://twitter.com/tomwaddington8/status/1550855925623300098Google Local Service Ads Seeing A Lot Of Fake Reviews - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-local-service-ads-with-fake-reviews-33810.htmlPAA Back to normal levels - Google has never said why or admitted an issue - https://twitter.com/RangerShay/status/1550058170420166656Visitor update tab seen in the wild - https://twitter.com/CaseyABryan/status/1551265789445283846LocalU Tickets & Sponsors - https://localu.org/den22/#ticketsZipsprout - https://zipsprout.com/TheTransparency CO - https://askfortransparency.com/Whitespark

Mike's Links:OpenAI expands access to DALL-E 2, its powerful image-generating AI system - https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/20/openai-expands-access-to-dall-e-2-its-powerful-image-generating-ai-system/Ep 74: Amazon & Google pander to the FTC, American Privacy Act: Opt-In/Out Battle, Instagram goes local - https://www.nearmedia.co/ep-74/Construction worker wearing a high-vis vest with an ad for a personal injury lawyer - https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1551582109852106755Outstanding Local SEO Takeaways from MozCon 2022 - https://moz.com/blog/mozcon-2022-local-seo-insightsLocal Landing Page Checklist - https://ricketyroo.com/blog/local-landing-page-checklist/The Rising Importance Of Images In Google Search - https://ducttapemarketing.com/images-in-google-search/Aircam.ai • AI Powered Photo Checker - https://aircam.ai/google-visionStefan Somborac Messaging FAQ on Twitter - https://mobile.twitter.com/StefanSomborac/status/1549721775981953024How to read & reply to messages from your Business Profile - iPhone & iPad - Google Business Profile Help - https://support.google.com/business/answer/9114771?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DiOSGoogle Tests "Reviews Aren't Verified" Label - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-reviews-arent-verified-label-33788.htmlCarrie's LinksSpam in LSAs is rampant - Google doesn't seem to care?  - https://twitter.com/lenraleigh/status/1550557036269780993Tom Waddington shows a serp with 100 5.0 rated LSAs - mostly spam - multiple listings for same biz, etc. - https://twitter.com/tomwaddington8/status/1550855925623300098Google Local Service Ads Seeing A Lot Of Fake Reviews - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-local-service-ads-with-fake-reviews-33810.htmlPAA Back to normal levels - Google has never said why or admitted an issue - https://twitter.com/RangerShay/status/1550058170420166656Visitor update tab seen in the wild - https://twitter.com/CaseyABryan/status/1551265789445283846LocalU Tickets & Sponsors - https://localu.org/den22/#ticketsZipsprout - https://zipsprout.com/TheTransparency CO - https://askfortransparency.com/Whitespark

Greg Finn of the Marketing o'Clock podcast comes on to step in for Mordy while he's at #MozCon! Oh wait - Mordy crashed the party! We thought we had a break from him! Join us as we dive into articles from Search Engine Land and Search Engine Roundtable.  We're trying something new out - a BarryBlast!  Rapidfire Barry Schwartz articles are really the only way to keep up with the guy! [00:03:20] New Pinterest Features Geared Towards Shopping [00:08:22] Google Willing to Split the Company (back to itself) to Avoid DOJ Lawsuit [00:14:31] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:15:27] New Content or Content Recycle…that is the Question [00:23:01] EDGE of the Web Sponsor: edgeofthewebradio.com/inlinks [00:24:21] BarryBlast1: Huge Drop In Google People Also Ask [00:26:19] BarryBlast2: Google Ad Editor Version 2.1 With Overview Page Design [00:27:33] BarryBlast3: Google removes language in help doc calling hidden Search Console query data ‘very rare' [00:30:46] EDGE of the Web Sponsor: edgeofthewebradio.com/pageonepower [00:31:23] #PPCCHAT & #SEOCHAT #StandwithUkraine edgeofthewebradio.com/ukraine

Luke Carthy started his eCommerce career client side, then after being invited to speak at MozCon 2019 (oh yes!) he decided to go at it alone. He now spends his days helping his clients deliver sustainable eCommerce growth with SEO and CRO. He's back AGAIN on the show to share his insight on why you should get your CRO fixed before your SEO. AND sharing LOTS of great new tips to improve your SEO and CRO performance. PLUS we're talking GA4, Google Analytics 4 as well. Get all the links and resources we mention at https://keepoptimising.com/?utm_source=captivate&utm_medium=episodenotes (KeepOptimising.com) Episode sponsored by https://www.klaviyo.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=masterplan (Klaviyo) This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Areej is Head of SEO at Papier where she focuses on all things technical and on-site SEO. She is the founder of the Women in Tech SEO community which is a support network aimed for women in the Technical SEO field. In this episode we discuss: Where the idea for Women in Tech SEO came from The stress and joy of hosting a conference (alongside a full time job!) Lessons and learnings from the biggest WTSEO event The challenges of race in marketing Will we ever be ‘done' with diversity Moving from agency to in house SEO Running SEO from a big brand in a hyper competitive space The challenges of managing SEO for a VC funded start up Why the tech rather than marketing team may be the natural home for tech SEO Areej AbuAli Areej is Head of SEO at Papier where she focuses on all things technical and on-site SEO. She is the founder of the Women in Tech SEO community which is a support network aimed for women in the Technical SEO field. She has been in the industry for the past 8 years and has spoken at conferences such as SMX, BrightonSEO and MozCon. Find Areej on: Her website, Women in Tech SEO, Twitter, LinkedIn Important Links Women in Tech SEO Digital Marketing Strategy Course My Digital Marketing Strategy Course in partnership with the University of Vaasa in Finland is available now via Teachable for just €249. It's perfect for small business owners, entrepreneurs and those who want to get a better understanding of what marketing strategy is and how to embed that strategy across an organisation. Sign up for the programme here: https://univaasa.teachable.com/p/digital-marketing-strategy Andi Jarvis If you have any questions or want to talk about anything that was discussed in the show, the best place to get me is on Twitter or LinkedIn. If you don't get the podcast emailed to you (and a monthly newsletter) you can sign up for it on the Eximo Marketing website. Make sure you subscribe to get the podcast every fortnight and if you enjoyed the show, please give it a 5* rating. Andi Jarvis, Eximo Marketing.

In this episode, we chat with Amanda Milligan about creating newsworthy content. Several of our previous guests have stressed the importance of following the news. Today, we'll discuss how we can use it to create relevant content for your audience that earns future links. Not only will you get some tips from our guest, but you'll also hear from Britt and Jackie on resources that have given them ideas for content. You'll walk away with solid insights on helping your brand build authority and generate press. In this episode you'll learn… How to contextualize the news to fit your brand, no matter what your industry is! Tools and additional resources to help you brainstorm content ideas How you can create evergreen content out of the news Our guest is... Amanda Milligan is the Head of Marketing at Stacker Studio, a data journalism newswire that partners with brands to create and distribute content to their high-authority publisher network, building brand awareness and earning links for their clients. With a degree in journalism and a decade in content marketing, she's spent her career helping brands harness the intersection of content and SEO. Her expertise has been published in Entrepreneur, Forbes, TechCrunch, Search Engine Land, Moz, The Next Web, and more, and she's spoken at industry-leading events, including SMX, MozCon, BrightonSEO, and Pubcon.

On Ep. 68 of iPullRank's Rankable Podcast, Garrett Sussman hosts Amanda Milligan, Head of Marketing at Stacker, to discuss the topic of how to create newsworthy content.Amanda Milligan is the Head of Marketing at Stacker, a data journalism newswire that partners with brands to create and distribute content to their high-authority publisher network, building brand awareness and earning links for their clients. With a degree in journalism and a decade in content marketing, she's spent her career helping brands harness the intersection of content and SEO. Her expertise has been published in Entrepreneur, Forbes, TechCrunch, Search Engine Land, Moz, The Next Web, and more, and she's spoken at industry-leading events, including SMX, MozCon, BrightonSEO, and Pubcon. Brand building isn't synonymous with SEO, but it's a critical component of authority and E-A-T signals. Amanda joined us this week to talk about the value of content and brand building outside of SEO, how you can create newsworthy content, and how content can solidify your name in your industry. In this episode, we also covered:What role does data backed journalism play in newsworthy content?What research strategies and resources can a marketer use to develop their content?How to build brand authority through contentIs content syndication a viable strategy in 2022?How do you handle objections around duplicating your content on other networks?

Ross Simmonds is the founder of Foundation Marketing, a content marketing agency that combines data and creativity to develop & serve ambitious brands. Foundation Marketing provides content marketing services to organizations all over the world ranging from some of the fastest-growing startups & consumer products to global Fortune 500 brands. Ross and the team at Foundation have launched marketing initiatives that reach millions of people on channels like Instagram, Slideshare Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and more.In addition to running Foundation Marketing; Ross is the founder of a wide range of different businesses including Hustle & Grind, an eCommerce brand described as the voice of modern entrepreneurs. Ross has invested in a handful of start-ups and sits on the board of directors for a handful of non-profit organizations.Over the years, Ross has been published or featured in publications such as Forbes, Venture Beat, Huffington Post, Mashable, BET, CBC, and more. He's spoken at global conferences about digital marketing for small, medium, and enterprise brands at events like MozCon, SearchLove, LearnInbound Webbdagarna, CTAConf, and more. He was named in Mashable as one of the top Snapchat marketers in the world and writes regularly about marketing at RossSimmonds.comFollow Ross:@thecoolestcoolhttp://rosssimmonds.com/www.foundationinc.coI'm A Business, Man on YouTubeWebsites:www.smoothmealprep.comwww.rnbkitchen.comFollow:@vellsmooth@cbvelly@rnbkitchen902@smoothmealprep

The awesome Amanda Milligan joins me on the show to discuss how to build authority in digital marketing. Amanda Milligan is the Head of Marketing at Stacker, a data journalism platform and newswire that also partners with brands to create and distribute content to build brand awareness and links. With a degree in journalism and a decade in content marketing, she's spent her career helping brands harness the intersection of content and SEO. Her expertise has been published in Entrepreneur, Forbes, TechCrunch, Search Engine Land, Moz, The Next Web, and more, and she's spoken at industry-leading events, including SMX, MozCon, BrightonSEO, and Pubcon. In this episode, we discuss: How to define authority What makes a brand authoritative The value there is in brands seeking to build/grow their authority The common mistakes people make when going through this authority building process How brands with more authority stand out from those who don't What response she would give to a C-suite/senior manager who isn't interested in building authority ...and much more! ** FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT AVAILABLE AT https://www.iamazeemdigital.com/blog/amanda-milligan-podcast-interview/* As always, if you enjoyed this, and previous episodes, please like, rate, share, and subscribe to the podcast - it all helps! Useful Links: Podcast Anchor Page: https://anchor.fm/azeemdigitalasks My Twitter page: https://twitter.com/AzeemDigital My website: https://www.iamazeemdigital.com/ Sign up to "The Marginalised Marketer" newsletter: https://www.iamazeemdigital.com/the-marginalised-marketer-newsletter/ Amanda's Twitter: https://twitter.com/millanda

The incredibly talented Britney Muller joins me on the Azeem Digital Asks podcast this week, and I was lucky enough to get her thoughts on data science, machine learning and the future for these areas. Britney is well known and well respected throughout the industry, and rightly so - she's a keynote speaker, previously was the senior SEO scientist at Moz, data science student, and giver of the best MozCon introductions for speakers I've ever seen! In this episode, we discuss: Defining what data science and ML is What it means to be a data scientist Preventing the misinterpretation of data The ethical implications of ML Mistakes that she's made on her journey into this field Educating the C-suite on this field What the future is for data science and ML How you can get started learning more about these fields ...and so much more! As always, if you enjoyed this, and previous episodes, please like, rate, share, and subscribe to the podcast - it all helps! Useful Links: Podcast Anchor Page: https://anchor.fm/azeemdigitalasks My Twitter page: https://twitter.com/AzeemDigital My website: https://www.iamazeemdigital.com/ Britney's Twitter: https://twitter.com/BritneyMuller

Casie Gillette talks with Jason Barnard about content marketing Casie Gillette - Director of Online Marketing at Komarketing – is a digital marketing strategy expert with nearly 20 years of experience, and speaker at top marketing conferences such as SMX, Pubcon and MozCon.  She joined Jason Barnard to discuss the role of technology in Content Marketing and Customer Experience, and how we can use it to better understand our audience.  Casie shares invaluable insights on how to take advantage of the vast amounts of information that Google divulges about our audiences… but also how to stand out and make a difference in our customers' experience by adding a human aspect. You will also learn a very effective content creation strategy that most of the companies fail to implement, and much more! Finally, a bonus: You'll see the coolest dog just chillin' in the background with Casie (the podcast ends when s/he starts eating the table leg ;) What you'll learn from Casie Gillette 00:00 Casie Gillette with Jason Barnard01:18 Casie's Brand SERP03:57 Does technology make Content Marketing and Customer Experience easier?09:42 Identifying the sites ranking the most in your industry for content strategy11:16 Relying on technology vs examining your Brand SERP for audience insights15:32 The importance of the human aspect when understanding your audience21:15 Taking the offline online in your content strategy24:08 What's a good content creation process for a company?30:01 Creating video content35:56 Technology as a vehicle to understanding our audience Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe here >> This episode was recorded live on video March 30th 2021 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>

Casie Gillette talks with Jason Barnard about content marketing Casie Gillette - Director of Online Marketing at Komarketing – is a digital marketing strategy expert with nearly 20 years of experience, and speaker at top marketing conferences such as SMX, Pubcon and MozCon.  She joined Jason Barnard to discuss the role of technology in Content Marketing and Customer Experience, and how we can use it to better understand our audience.  Casie shares invaluable insights on how to take advantage of the vast amounts of information that Google divulges about our audiences… but also how to stand out and make a difference in our customers' experience by adding a human aspect. You will also learn a very effective content creation strategy that most of the companies fail to implement, and much more! Finally, a bonus: You'll see the coolest dog just chillin' in the background with Casie (the podcast ends when s/he starts eating the table leg ;) What you'll learn from Casie Gillette 00:00 Casie Gillette with Jason Barnard01:18 Casie's Brand SERP03:57 Does technology make Content Marketing and Customer Experience easier?09:42 Identifying the sites ranking the most in your industry for content strategy11:16 Relying on technology vs examining your Brand SERP for audience insights15:32 The importance of the human aspect when understanding your audience21:15 Taking the offline online in your content strategy24:08 What's a good content creation process for a company?30:01 Creating video content35:56 Technology as a vehicle to understanding our audience Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe here >> This episode was recorded live on video March 30th 2021 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>

Joining me on the show this week is the awesome Rand Fishkin. He is the cofounder and CEO of SparkToro. He's dedicated his professional life to helping people do better marketing through his blogging, videos, speaking, and his book, Lost and Founder. When Rand's not working, he's most likely to be in the company of his partner in marriage and (mostly petty) crime, author Geraldine DeRuiter. If you feed him great pasta or great whisky, he'll give you the cheat code to rank #1 on Google. In this episode, we get into: Algorithms, and the responsibility of networks to manage misinformation/disinformation SparkToro's high churn rate, and the challenges he's having with the product Lessons he's learned throughout his career Where, and who Rand draws his inspiration from Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion within the industry, and how he went about diversifying MozCon lineups Why he feels he's been unsuccessful with his content strategy/marketing for SparkToro during the last year Where the inspiration came from to write the blog post about leaving Moz, and why he wrote it. How he deals with negative responses to his content His theory about Google's deep-learning algorithms weighting unlinked brand mentions more than it it is links by themselves. ..and so much more! There's a lot of value to be had from this episode - you won't want to miss it! As always, please tell a friend to tell a friend - subscribe, rate, like, and share this - it all helps! Rand's Twitter: https://twitter.com/randfish SparkToro: https://sparktoro.com/ The blog post we discussed: https://sparktoro.com/blog/im-ending-my-tenure-on-mozs-board-welcoming-tara-reed-and-asia-orangio/ Podcast Anchor Page: https://anchor.fm/azeemdigitalasks My Twitter page: https://twitter.com/AzeemDigital My website: https://www.iamazeemdigital.com/

FULL SHOW NOTES:[INTRO music]00:12 Aaron Weiche: Episode 23, Course Correcting.00:16 INTRO SPEAKER: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. Sharing the adventure of leading and growing a bootstrap SaaS company. Hear the experiences, challenges, wins, and losses shared in each episode. From Aaron Weiche of GatherUp and Darren Shaw of Whitespark. Let's go.[music]00:43 AW: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. I'm Aaron.00:46 Darren Shaw: And I'm Darren.00:47 AW: And I just finished eating a chocolate chip cookie. What do you think about that? 00:52 DS: It sounds pretty good. I just finished eating a salad. It's the exact opposite. [chuckle]00:58 AW: If my wife listens to this episode, I'm gonna get yelled at, but when I got gas at the gas station, they have these big chocolate chip cookies, and, yeah, this just looked like a great afternoon snack.[chuckle]01:09 DS: Totally, yeah. And now you made me wanna go get one.[laughter]01:13 AW: I'll mail you one.01:14 DS: Wow, I don't know if it'll be good by the time it gets here.[laughter]01:18 AW: So what's been going on other than salads and cookies? I know what's been going on. You spent all week last week hosting a massive virtual summit with 4000-5000 attendees. Let's talk about that a little bit before we get into our main topic today.01:34 DS: Yeah, so it's been huge. This summit was a massive success. We had actually 5500 people register for the summit.01:41 AW: Wow.01:42 DS: And pretty great attendance to all the different talks, and so it was big and we've been getting nothing but a steady stream of positive feedback about it. Just people comparing it to other conferences and saying how awesome it was and, yeah, so it was a great success. People love the content, and of course, I had some of the best speakers in the world such as Aaron Weiche, Mike Blumenthal, Joey Hawkins, so we had fantastic speakers. Basically, all the most known speakers in local search were there. Some heavy hitters outside of the local specific space like Rand Fishkin spoke. Michael King spoke. Brodie Clark, who was really building a name for himself down under in Australia, he spoke as well. And so, yeah, it was a great conference. We had huge visibility and, yeah, it was good. It was all good.02:31 DS: It was so much work though. Oh, my God, I can't... I'm glad it's over because not only was it so much work to put it together, I had my own presentation to do, the Local Search Ranking Factor survey had to get done out there, recreated, re-pull all the data, re-analyze all the data, build a slide deck, build a presentation around it and present it. And I handed that in like Monday night. The night before we were going live with the conference, I handed in my recording, and it was just a very stressful time. Glad it's over.03:01 AW: Yeah. Now, I wanna touch on a few benefits that we noticed in having myself and Mike both from GatherUp speaking at it. Our parent company Traject was a sponsor as well. They used their sponsor slot to tease our social product, which has been rebranded, called Fanbooster. But I wanna get back to seeing if you can quantify the work you put into it all, but on our side, the benefits with two speaking topics, we had great exposure, I can only guess you basically led off the conference with Mike, which I'm thinking was another hit. For a decade, he has been probably one of or the biggest thought leader in the space.03:50 DS: Totally.03:51 AW: And, yeah, a great draw and just the reason I love working with Mike is just the levels he can think on, and he gave a great talk around review attributes, which plays heavily into our platform and things like that. And then two days later, 'cause it was a three-day conference, and I talked on some things strategically related to reviews and reputation management. But for us specifically, we saw double the leads last week of what we had been averaging like the four to six weeks prior, which really great.04:30 AW: Any time you can 2X something is fabulous, and it returned our leads to pre-COVID for a week, which is awesome. I'm probably gonna be a little maybe frowny face next week when they jump down most likely again a little bit, but maybe some of those that paid for the videos and things like that are watching in this week, and then they'll still be interested to sign up. So we had a really great experience. A lot of Twitter conversation, which is always awesome, great, in the moment mentions, new Twitter followers, things like that. So from our standpoint, it was fabulous. From yours, what was the amount of work that it took you to put this together? I guess I just wanna frame up for any of our listeners that might be considering hosting a virtual conference as a marketing vehicle.05:24 DS: Yeah, I would love to be able to quantify the hours. It's tough to say. We've been working on it for about six months. Heavily working on it certainly through July and August, lots of recording. So there were 34 presentations, one of them mine, and then all the other ones I had to book an hour to record with that speaker. There was a ton of setting up all the speakers, doing speaker agreements, lots of chasing with regards to sponsorships too. So getting sponsors, going back and forth with them on a lot of stuff, writing up sponsorship agreements, getting the platform launched. We used the system called HeySummit, which turned out really well. But getting that whole website set up, my own team, if I think about what Jessie and Sydney put into it, it was almost a full-time job for them. And so hours, probably hundreds, a couple of hundred of hours have gone into launching this thing, and so it was a lot of work. And not only that, we worked with a company called HeySummit, and they were great 'cause they keep everything organized, and they also did all of our video editing, all the videos launched onto the site, and so...06:40 DS: Between all of us, maybe 300 hours is what it takes to put on a conference like this. If I had to guesstimate at it, maybe 400, 300-400. So that's a big investment. That's a big expense. The expenses broke even, so it's not really a money-making venture. We took any money that we got from sponsorship and we put it back into Facebook ads, Facebook and Instagram ads, to market the conference. So our whole goal was to get that attendance list up as high as possible, and we managed to get 5500 through all of our marketing efforts. And then ticket sales are covering all the expenses, expenses of that company that we worked with and speaker gifts, and so there's really nothing left in the end. It's not a money-making venture on its own. It was completely a marketing exercise for us to just get our brand in front of more people.07:28 AW: Yeah, and so you did that at a very large scale. You also, too, because of... The local search community is very niche and they're really... There's been a couple of attempts. MozCon created their own local event, and now they've just folded local into MozCon itself, which is a very large event in the SEO community. But I really saw it as you took the opportunity of a premier event in local search has been vacated, and you just claimed it heavily with what you did, and I think that's pretty cool.08:03 DS: Yeah, I think it's cool that way. And it's like, this one was so successful that we can't not do it again, so it's gonna be an annual thing. There's also some talk about doing spin-off conferences. Because we have all the talks pre-recorded, we could pull in a few new speakers that are specific to, let's say, dentistry. Like we'd get some top dental marketing guys to come in, and we'd do a few presentations with them, and then we'd pull out eight good... Our favorite talks from the summit, and we've got a new conference and it's really easy to spin it up now. And so we're actually thinking about doing a bunch of industry-specific conferences. A whole new set of sponsors, a whole new marketing push. So it's an interesting angle that we can keep running with for additional exposure into different markets in terms of marketing Whitespark. So the marketing potential of this is pretty huge.08:52 AW: Yeah, that's awesome. Now, you guys did a really great job. Internally, I was saying it made me miss 2019 because conferences and public speaking have been so important to GatherUp's growth and something that Mike and I are just wired to do, to share and network and connect through those events. And having that completely shut off in 2020, has been... It's removed a major marketing arrow out of our quiver, so it was nice to see that bump. We've seen it with a couple of the local universities in small chunks as well, but it was really nice to have that happen. And yeah, I'm looking forward to what else you guys can do with it with what you learned year one and what went right and what went wrong. You brought a lot of great speakers and you got some new faces in there, and I think you worked really hard on that, so well done.09:44 DS: Thank you.09:46 AW: I was definitely proud, excited, jealous, all of those things, which are all good.09:51 DS: Yeah, I'm excited about it too. I'm excited about the future of it. One thing that stood out for me is that you talked about the surge in leads that you saw from your presentations. It was fascinating to me that we did not see that. As the premier sponsor, the premier, we had four presentations from Whitespark. At the end of so many things there was all these like, "Hey, Whitespark deals," but we didn't really see a big lift in leads or sales from it, and it speaks to me about we just don't have the greatest products and services that are of interest to people.10:27 DS: We are very heavily citation-based, and that's part of it. Citations are losing interest in the industry right now but it's a big part of what we do, and so it just wasn't like, "Oh, awesome, citations." If I had done this conference six years ago, then I'm sure it would have been a massive business booster on the citation side of things. But our GMB service is amazing, and I think that there's a great potential there, and we saw some growth from a conference there. But our products, they're a little bit scattered. We got one for citations, we have one for reputation, we have one for rank tracking, but people, they're like, "Oh, I don't know what I should sign up for." So it's really like we have this grander vision of an integrated product that we're building, and we're working on that. So getting that launched as soon as possible is certainly a takeaway from the conference.11:14 AW: Yeah, no, that's really interesting and probably a super valuable takeaway, Daren. That could end up being... Depending upon how that sits with you and what you do with that, that might be as valuable as the conference and the marketing and the exposure itself. Is like what... It helped you learn something about yourself in a very fast cycle 'cause you saw it as, "We had 5000 people here with our name splashed all over it, leading the conversation, signed up through our website, all of these things, and it didn't move our sales in any direction." Right? 11:52 DS: Right. Yeah.11:53 AW: Yeah, no, that's really... That's, I don't know, telling/interesting/gave you some elongated, you don't notice it. If it's 5000 users over a year, you don't notice it, but when it's over a couple of weeks, it's something that really caught your eye.12:12 DS: Yeah, totally. And I think we are dialed in for next year, so when we do this conference again next year, we will have our software in the place, and so it'll be that perfect combination of like we know how to do this conference now, and so we do the conference, we have the right product to sell people, we can market it better and be in a much stronger position. So yeah, it's all good. All heading in the right direction.12:30 AW: On the flip side of that, and maybe around the leads and the bump we saw, I've really been both enjoying and realizing lately we finally have what I feel is like a very mature solution. And it's taken six years to get to that, and we still have things we wanna do and a couple of big piece items, but really gone are the days where 50% of the questions a prospect might ask you, you didn't have a great answer for or didn't have multiple options for. Where now it's like 10% of the questions might fall into that or even less to what's there.13:08 DS: That's amazing.13:09 AW: Yeah, and that just makes it great that when we get exposure, and we get in front of people, when we have the right marketing, it drives interest, leads, demos, sales for us. So it's really interesting to have that positioning now with it and understand that. And along those lines like...13:28 AW: I wish we could do a ton more marketing right now, it's really... The pandemic and the way, there's a lot of wait and see in the economy, especially with our larger enterprise prospects and customers. And it's such a hard thing to figure out in so many areas right now, and sales are really quiet for us on the upper end. Our resellers are creating movement and single locations are still coming on, so like the... If you frame it up as like onesie, twosies, we're making it there, our retention is great. We actually, in August, returned up above our pre-COVID revenue number, so it made... We didn't dip too far down and it didn't take too much for us to climb back up and be back to growing again and have gotten above what we lost in the first month or two, and things like that. Which is super encouraging, and I'm proud of our team for how hard, across the spectrum, everyone worked to make that happen. But it does get really... It's almost frustrating now to like, Oh, we have so many of these pieces in place, and the one thing that we could really get after is marketing and sales, and it is such a challenging marketing and sales environment right now.14:40 DS: Right, yeah, exactly. So it's so hard with the COVID situation, every... Budgets are tight, people are not really exploring new products right now, so... Yeah, I get that. And it's nice for you to be in that position, it's like we're almost in opposite positions: You've got a very mature product that you are struggling to do the marketing for, we've got a really great marketing engine and not the mature product. So it's like we've got to dial in our product, you've gotta ramp up your marketing somehow.15:09 AW: Well, and I think that serves as a great segue into the main topic that we wanna talk about today. I will say, I think there's no better time to be building than right now. If people aren't buying, great... Build. So that when that releases, when that changes, when that gets better, you have more to offer. Anyone, if you're in position in your product and you know you have some product market fit or things going your way, I would just double down on that so hard right now, so that when budgets loosen up, things pick up, whether that's a couple of months, six months, 12 months, 24 months, whatever it is, be in position to command those dollars. Take what you would invest into marketing and put it into the product. That would be my advice with this.15:57 DS: Agreed, 100%. That's what we're trying to do for sure. We're really focused on product right now. I'm trying to stay focused, I gotta stop distracting my team with all these side level, "Hey, here's a cool tool we could build, that doesn't actually drive any revenue for Whitespark, but hey, I wanna build it 'cause I love SEO." I need to stop doing that.16:16 AW: Alright, well, I'll try to hold you to that. I should probably stop eating gas station cookies, but we know how these battles go.16:24 DS: Yeah. Well, speaking of staying focused, one of the things that's come up for us recently, and I... This is the main thing, course correcting, it's like we had this feature that I got distracted with it, and I wanted to talk about that on the podcast today. It was like this idea that we were gonna build this feature called screenshots in our rank tracker. So we wanted to add this feature to our local rank tracking product that would allow people to see an actual visual of the rankings. So, like, actually we take a screen shot of every page. So it seemed like such a good idea, so we built this... The thing, we spent probably a good month and a half, two months building this feature. We launched the feature, it has had zero impact on our sales for the most part, so it's been useless from that perspective. And adoption rate of the feature was fairly low too.17:23 DS: Some people liked it, but the thing that it ended up doing was, while it was two months of development time, but then it was also... It's hugely expensive to... We had to spin up more servers to process everything, we had to implement new structures, and our actual crawling budget is way more expensive, it's like a separate crawl for each thing. We have to store all of those screenshots for 90 days. So we're spending a ton of money on S3 storage now, and so it was like, we launched this feature, did not help our business whatsoever, cost us a ton, continues to cost us a ton in operating costs, and so it's like we just made the decision to ditch the feature. And it's disappointed a few customers, but we set the email, we dropped the feature, we had three people cancel, that's it, just three. And so we've now saved ourselves massive maintenance costs, massive ongoing operating costs. And it really had no impact. And so it's like, that's the topic that's been on my mind and the main thing I really wanted to talk about.18:31 AW: Yeah, so let's go back to the beginning. Where did this feature originate from? Was this an internal idea, your idea, feedback from a customer, What does that look like? 18:41 DS: It was feedback from a potentially important customer, and it was really... It was Joy Hopkins that drove this feature. I blame you, Joy, if you're listening [chuckle] Basically, we launched the feature because Joy was like, "Listen, I'm using a competitor's tool. I really like your tool, but I can't use it 'cause it doesn't have screenshots, I use screenshots all the time." And I'm like, "Yeah, I know I've always wanted screenshots too." And so it's interesting to see how a decision like that can come from a single conversation with a single customer, and I think there's a big lesson there, it's like, do not drive your features by what one customer asked for. We've gotten caught by that a couple of times where it's like, we hear one or two people ask for something, but it's like, does it actually appeal to the entire user base? Is it that important to invest the time into? And so it's an important lesson to prioritize your feature development based off of one, how broad is the appeal for this feature and two, what will it to cost to build this feature? And I think we failed miserably on both of those.19:47 AW: Yeah. Has it spurned in you more ideas now, how to validate? It still doesn't mean one person can't give you a great suggestion.19:56 DS: Totally.19:57 AW: But then how might you bring that to your audience or what exists in your communication flows you're with right now where you'd be able to say, "You know what, we've actually had six other people request this" or "I know some people that'd be interested" or "Let me schedule a couple of calls with some of my power users and see what they think about it". And especially if it's a feature where... When you roll this out, were there any... Were you asking people to pay more for it or you were just including it and eating up margin in your current plan? 20:29 DS: Well sure, that's another good question and another good lesson is that one, we should've had it as an add-on at the very least. So it's like if you want this, you've gotta pay extra for it. Because it actually has significant additional operating costs, we should've charged for it. So that was another mistake made in the roll out of this feature. And then only the people that would've really wanted it would've paid for it. But even then, if by having the... Looking back at it, I'd probably still wouldn't have done it because there wouldn't have been enough people interested that would have justified the cost to build it. But to your question, it has made me think about implementing something like Kenney IO. Have you seen that? It's like this little feature request thing. It's like a software that you can have set up and customers can submit, "Hey, these are the features I want" and then they can upvote existing features that exist in there. And so it's like that way, you can kinda make sure that your development is driven by what your customers are asking for and then you have a little widget inside the tools like, "Do you have any feature requests? Let us know." and then that goes over to Kenney. I think that's a really smart idea and it's got me thinking about what... About adding that to our software? 21:40 AW: One thing I would almost suggest, even if it is something that you're not planning on feature gating in a plan or raising a price for, have a handful of phone calls, show them basic visual mocks or explain it, and then when they... If you ask a... Would you leverage this? Would this be something that would be really interesting or valuable to you? And they say "Yes," and then just pose the question,"How much more a month would you spend with us?".22:08 DS: Sure.22:09 AW: Right? 22:09 DS: What is it worth? 22:10 AW: Yeah. Would they actually put money on it? 22:13 DS: Yeah.22:13 AW: Even if everyone likes the idea, but everybody's like, "No, I wouldn't spend any more for it", then you also get like, "I'm saying yes to you to be nice because you've taken the time and it looks nice, but if you're asking me right now how much more I'd pay for it, I'm not gonna pay for it. I don't need it that bad".22:31 DS: Absolutely. Like, "Yeah sure. Give me this new feature. I might check it out. Sure, cool, but not giving you any more money for it". And honestly, I swear, if I had asked that question, I would've got a lot of people saying, "No, I'm not gonna pay more for it. I don't care about it that much" and then that would've told me and saved me all the hassle of building this. And so there's actually two things that we're... The topic of this podcast is course correcting, but there's also that preventative thing that we need to look at. It's like, how do you prevent yourself from building a feature that is actually not valuable.23:01 AW: Yeah. Well, it's that question, how did we end up on this course to have to correct it in the first place? 23:07 DS: Yeah.23:07 AW: It's definitely a piece to it. And it's like... It's something I still struggle with because I do build heavily off of intuition. But a lot of times that intuition isn't uninformed. It is from looking at, What are other people doing? What exists? What are competitors allowing people to do? It is taking in a lot of education across other things. It's even... I listen to probably six, seven talks from the Local Search Summit and it was just to get a feel for what's hot in certain areas, what are these leading experts pointing people in a direction, things like that, and then how does that play into what we're doing or what we should focus on or how can we even change our messaging to capitalize on it.23:56 AW: Like in the case, both David Mihm and Rand Fishkin's talk, talked about email and its value and just how much it outperforms social, and social is not just shiny, we gotta have it and it's sexy and fun and everything else and we have a social feature we put a lot into and it's very popular and gets used. But I've also written a couple of things like, "Hey, don't just use this for social. You can use this for images on your website or images in your email newsletters," and it just reaffirmed to me like, I'd put out a couple of tweets, piggy-backing on your hashtag and I'm like, "Hey, if you watched Rand and David's talk and you saw... So a email opens or 256 acts of engagement rate of social posts.24:42 DS: It's amazing.24:43 AW: Yeah, you're ready to double down on email, we've got you covered with the same solution that does social. So it is. You do have to do a lot of that intake. Obviously, having a way to capture the customer's voice, we still sometimes struggle at that. We keep loose track. We don't have an exact scoreboard but we do understand what people want in certain things and kind of loosely keep track of it. But I can't go and get like, "Oh well, 19 people have requested this, so you're the 20th. We really should build this".25:16 DS: Right.25:16 AW: But it would be helpful to make that more quantified.25:20 DS: Yeah. I was kind of feeling the same way. It's like one, we're not really asking for future requests and two, we're not scoring them. So I think those two things are super valuable and rather than me spending so much time trying to build based off of intuition, which of course, I think I have decent intuition, except in the rank track or screenshots example [chuckle] Generally, I think I have a decent sense about what would be appealing to the market, because I'm actively in the market. I'm always engaged in this stuff. But I think it'd be awesome to pull our customers and make sure that we're building based off of what people want. It's an important lesson I'm taking from this.26:01 AW: Yeah, well, one, I think you obviously saw where things were trending, you saw how you were leaking on this and there wasn't benefit, and the people weren't championing it, so you made the call to stop. And I think that's a progression because a year ago, you might not have done that. Correct? 26:19 DS: Yeah, we might have just continued to believe, in fact, I might not even looked at the numbers, I've been like... I didn't even notice that it was like, oh yeah, I forgot we launched that thing, it was costing us this much, and it didn't really impact subscriptions, but I'm trying to keep a closer eye on such things now.26:33 AW: Yeah, and did any part of you wanna talk to the three people that loved it so much that were there... 'Cause one thing I always struggle with, it can either be if you build something that doesn't take off, it either just didn't quite get over the hump where you built some, but not enough for it to really take hold. And someone else that does value it, could they offer you the last legs where then you can make the determination like, "Okay, it's gonna take me another two weeks or another month to build it this much better or to add this other benefit to it, and I'll do that. And if that doesn't change it, then I will shelf it, but I'm already 80% of the way, so just going a little further doesn't hurt, or did you just say "No, I know enough is enough, no one exposed anything great to me. It's just time to sunset it."27:23 DS: Yeah, I think those are some really good ideas and I would recommend anyone do something like you just proposed. In our case, we were limited and not really able to do that for this feature because one, we were exploring into whole new crawling architecture that we wanted to use instead of what we were currently using, but we couldn't because of screenshots, it was preventing us from switching to a much better solution that would allow us to maintain our crawl much better, and so we couldn't do it 'cause of the screenshots, and so that was like, "Gosh, these screenshots aren't paying us anything, let's just get rid of them," because that was the big driver of why we needed to do it.27:58 DS: And then the other factor is our rank tracker product is something we're going to maintain, but it's not generally going to be the thing that we're gonna put a lot of love into, because we have a broader vision, we're gonna build rank tracking into the broader vision, and then we'll eventually transition people over to our new software, and so when that happens, it's like I don't want to pull customers and find out that I can make it better by doing this when I don't want to invest any more Dev time into our existing rank tracking product.28:29 AW: Yeah, not easy, but sounds like you made the right call. You're doing a post-mortem on how we got here. How can I understand what people want more? How should I do more vetting of the value where they actually pay money for it? Things like that. I think those are all good lessons to learn and you have some actions to take next time.28:52 DS: Yeah, 100%. 'Cause I feel good about it, I'm taking the lessons and continuing to learn and grow and get better.29:00 AW: Interesting enough, I'm probably in the middle of your situation, so the timing of when you sent an email on this last week and you're like, "Oh, and I wanna talk about this." That was interesting. I have this internal conversation going, but we have a new reporting feature that we wanna put out, I'm not gonna get too specific and name it, but I wanna put this out, and so we've gone through the concept, we had to do a bunch of work in organizing the data on the back-end. So a very long time of doing a lot of just difficult data mapping. So one of those where you do all that work and you really don't have anything to show for it, because there's nothing to show for it, until you create a visual display where it's gonna show. So you do all this work on the plumbing, data mapping, everything else, it's non-sexy, none of the world knows that you actually had to put in all this time to make that happen. Now, once it's done. There's a bunch of different things that we can do with it. It just needed to be done regardless of this report or not.30:04 AW: But then I took... Alright, I created the wire frame, the purpose, the feature spec, all that, took it to our design in front-end and got it put together. And so it's at that stage right now and close to probably going into a sprint for development, and I stumbled upon someone else doing something similar, and they're doing it like 10 times better. [chuckle] And I just... For a week now, I've been putting off telling my product manager... I've just been like, okay, we're already this far down, this at least gets us something here. The lift isn't too crazy with what it is. It's getting something out the door. But then when I see how these other ones done, I'm like, oh, this is so much better because of this and this, and it's more visual and tells a better story, I missed on how I put this together, and now someone else has shown me like, "Hey, here's what you should have done 10 times better. And so I'm trying to figure out do I just move it forward and take the win in a month that it's out there, or do I course correct, shut it down, re-wire frame, re-front-end Dev, and probably doesn't see the light of day for three months. What would you do? 31:26 DS: Yeah, right. And so is this a feature that you have pulled your customers, you know that they're all waiting for this, you have a lot of interest in it, and it will provide a significant additional benefit to your users, and in that case, it might be worth revisiting. If you think it is like a small percentage will even care, then maybe you just roll out the basic version of it. Right? 31:50 AW: Yeah, so we've definitely been asked for it. It's definitely something in the space is... It's not a table stake kind of thing, but it's not a like, "Oh, this is the only tool that has... " There's plenty of tools that have this, but it is something that's definitely beneficial in a number of ways, and I think the hardest part is getting to... You know how you have certain features that are expected must haves, no matter if people really leverage it or really love it. You know what I mean? And I feel like this falls into that category where a third will really love it and use it beneficially and it helps them. A third notice it, see it every now and then and they're happy that it's there. And then another third, it was like, "Yeah, it's a checkmark when we were choosing tools, but we don't leverage it or use it. It's not a main driver for us." So that makes it even a little bit more difficult. Like just saying, "We have it," and the basic one I put together, that's gonna meet two-thirds of that audience.33:02 DS: Well, there, I think you just answered it, right, 'cause you're not gonna go back to the drawing board on it, are you? Do you think it's gonna be worth it if it meets the need, and it'll also get to put the checklist on your feature list? 33:13 AW: I still struggle though, 'cause I... One of my personal mantras, right, is good is the enemy of great. And this is a perfect example of like yeah, the, what we have in the pipeline right now is good. It's not great. And especially, sometimes you get that feeling and it gnaws at you and you're like, "Alright, we'll work in some new features. We'll get to this as soon as I get this up, these other priorities done." But for some reason, because I got to physically see great from how someone else is doing it, I'm like, "Well, that's just going against my own ethos. That's pretty dumb." [chuckle]33:54 DS: Yeah, it's like you just can't get past your personal need to develop something that's great. You can't launch a, what you would now consider half-assed version of it.34:04 AW: Yeah. And when I look at it like, "Alright, if I'm costing two months or three months, well, what's gonna happen in that meantime that's so... Part of it is just this feeling to ship new code and ship new features, which I think anyone in SaaS, you feel it. Whenever I describe SaaS in two words, it's... Or in two main themes, it's ship code and sell. That's the two main jobs you have in SaaS, and so part of it, like bringing new features, new eye candy, things you get to blog about, tweet about, showing a demo, all those other things, you need that. It is part of your lifeblood. So part of me is like, "Oh, I gotta put that off. And it was slated to be in this spot for something we can talk about," so I think some of it's just getting past that pressure that you constantly put on yourself to whatever it is, 30 days, 60 days, you need something new to keep people talking about you and to keep improving the product.35:06 DS: Yeah. It's so hard, Eventually you end up like in our case, our dev team is just so... They're pulled in so many different directions, and it's hard to continue a fast cycle of shipping. Have you ever seen ClickUp? Do you use ClickUp? 35:22 AW: We do not use ClickUp.  Is ClickUp a...35:26 DS: It's like Asana and Monday. It's like a project app.35:29 AW: Okay, yeah. No, we use some Asana. We're more into using a lot of the other tools in like Atlassian now, so like...35:37 DS: JIRA and stuff, yeah.35:39 AW: Yeah. Confluence and stuff like that.35:42 DS: Yeah, well, ClickUp just blows my mind, because every week, every Friday, I get an email from ClickUp saying like, "These are the five new features we shipped," and I cannot believe how quickly they are launching features and they're good features. It's like they're serious things. They're launching new shit all the time. It's amazing.36:01 AW: Yeah, but that's where you have to ask what's that size of their engineering team, where you have these... They might have, I don't know, the... I have no idea what they have. But they could have five different teams of five that each one has a rotation. So you're building in your team of five and you release and then you have five weeks till you have to release again in your rotation, because the next team has week two, the next team week three, like...36:27 DS: Sure.36:28 AW: Yeah, if you have that cadence and you can do it, that's pretty awesome.36:32 DS: I want that. I want that, Aaron.[chuckle]36:34 DS: How do we get that? [chuckle]36:36 AW: You want that with not even five developers, though. That's the hard part.36:40 DS: I want that with my two full-time developers.36:43 AW: Yep. Shiny, wonderful things.36:47 DS: No. I know.36:48 AW: So wrapping this up, course correcting. To summarize, I guess I would say it's something you absolutely have to consider. Yeah, sometimes you just gotta cut bait, or as we talked about, you have to investigate enough to know like, "Do I need to put more into this as one last effort?" Because you just, if you have the feeling or you have the data that tells you, "This isn't going the right way. It's just not that used. It's not making me more margin, or more top line revenue." Those are all the wrong signals you want out of adding to your solution.37:24 DS: Yeah, so knowing that trying to predict it in advance, of course, is the best course of action. If you can definitely identify whether or not this feature is gonna provide value. And I think it's, the lesson for me is to invest more time investigating these features before I give them the go ahead and then, but I do feel like, "Hey, I caught this one and it's time to course correct and cut our losses on it and move forward so the team can focus on other things and we can save those costs, because it's not actually doing anything beneficial to the business."37:53 AW: Yep. You gotta have the backbone to do it when you realize it's not there, and sometimes some things just have to be cut and shut down and you move on, and then just as you're outlining, post mortem you learn. And I'm a big fan. I use this statement all the time like, "Being proactive is an investment in your business, so more research, more listening, more vetting, asking people what they pay for that feature, taking the right steps to validate, that's an investment and everything you do reactively is an expense." So when you're still trying to deliver it, when you're trying to make it work for people, when you're ignoring the fact that no one likes it or is using it, and it's causing roadblocks to other things, like you're getting the bill on that in more than just dollars. It's time, it's everything else.38:42 DS: Yep, 100%.38:44 AW: Alright. Well, maybe on the next episode I'll let you know if I decided to redo this report or if I just stayed with it, but boy, I sure feel like, especially talking out loud with this, I need to course correct and go do it the right way and go from there.38:58 DS: I'm curious, yeah. I'd love to hear it next time we talk, what you decide to do.39:03 AW: Okay. My goal is to have that solved, not eat any more gas station cookies, eat more salads like you, and then I should be in good shape in two or three weeks when we talk again.39:14 DS: Yeah, looking good, feeling good. [chuckle] Sounds good.39:19 AW: Alright. Anything in closing, Darren, you wanna share? Anything you're looking forward to, or anything coming up in the next few weeks? 39:24 DS: Oh, sure, yeah, there's one big thing. I presented it at the Summit, is our local search ranking factors survey results. So I basically hacked together a presentation last minute so I can present. But the full publication's coming out. So I'm looking forward to launching that, and then also measuring the marketing impact of that as well. It's a pretty big resource in our industry, and so it'll be interesting to see what kind of business that drives.39:50 AW: Yeah, as a sub-point, maybe something we talk about as a focus in an episode like I think sharing and using data as inbound marketing and as content people want is massive, and you do such a great job with that and having the local search ranking factors is massive. Those are the kind of things that attract dozens or hundreds of links and mentions.40:15 DS: Yep. It's massive.40:17 AW: Yeah, over and over and over again and that's something we should probably talk about sometime. I think a lot of people miss the boat on that, just how much data, surveys, expert surveys, things like that, can just really fuel what you're doing for your inbound marketing, so let's mark that down for another topic.40:35 DS: Yeah, and I don't do it directly to make money. I think that there is a money-making benefit, but I just wanna clarify. I do it 'cause I love it. It's like the local search ranking factors is a labor of love and publishing it, I'm sure it definitely impacts business, but I would do it anyways.40:51 AW: There you go.40:52 DS: It's just what I love to do.40:54 AW: Even better when you love doing it.40:55 DS: That's right. Alright, thanks, Aaron.40:58 AW: Yeah, great to catch up. Everyone, thanks as always for listening. We always appreciate if you reach out with any topic ideas via Twitter or via thesaasventure.com, and if you get the opportunity and we're living up to our end of the deal of giving you valuable content, please leave us a review in iTunes to help others find the SaaS Venture podcast as well. So with that until we talk again hopefully in the next two to three weeks, sound good? 41:25 DS: Sounds good.41:25 AW: Alright, thanks Darren and thanks everyone. We'll talk to you soon.41:29 DS: Thanks Aaron. Thanks everyone.[music]

Helpful links from the episode: Alpine Software Group Steve Kozachok, Attorney and Partner at Taft Lost and Founder, book from Rand Fishkin FULL SHOW NOTES:[INTRO music]00:10 Aaron Weiche: Episode 17, Selling GatherUp - part two, the process.00:16 [INTRO]: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast, sharing the adventure of leading and growing a bootstrap SaaS company. Hear the experiences, challenges, wins and losses shared in each episode, from Aaron Weiche of GatherUp and Darren Shaw of Whitespark. Let's go! [music]00:44 AW: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. I'm Aaron.00:47 Darren Shaw: And I'm Darren.00:48 AW: And we are diving into part two of our three-part series on the acquisition of GatherUp from the end of 2019. If you haven't had the chance, part one of the series is the why, laying out things within the decision process, how to, things to consider and think about prepping your company to sell, just a number of aspects with this and today we're kind of hoping to transition into some more of the process items and small things, and being able to share just even how some of those things felt at the time. So looking forward to that but before we dive into that, Darren, it's been a few weeks since we've talked. What's new with Whitespark? 01:30 DS: What's new? Let's see, it's not really too much new. We just keep forging ahead with a lot of our product developments. Man, we have so many things that are so close right now, I'm just really excited about these launches that are upcoming, brand new local citation finder, a whole new account system. These are just on the cusp of being launched and it's funny because we have this local citation finder and it's been quite neglected for years as we build other things in the company. And it's truly... We get 300 free users signing up for that every week.02:04 AW: Nice.02:04 DS: And a lot of those are converting, but it's amazing to me that they're converting to the existing product because it's old, it's outdated, the data's not great, but and so, I look at that and I think I can't wait to launch the new one. And I think when we launch the new one, our churn rate will plummet. Our sign-up rate will drastically increase. I think it's gonna be huge for the company. So yeah, got lots of things on the go right now, busy with that, I don't have any trips planned until June. So yeah, I'm gonna see you in Minneapolis in June, that'll be good.02:37 AW: Yeah. Minnesota search will have a great time as always, have a few beers.02:41 DS: Yep, looking forward to it.02:42 AW: Maybe come up with another crazy idea to start a podcast or something.02:46 DS: Yeah, we'll start a different podcast.[laughter]02:50 AW: That's awesome. And I know the feeling with where you're at when your right on the cusp of launching things that was me towards the end of December and then January whereas we had three, four features that were kinda log jam together and then they were starting to shake loose. And then really we just had to start mapping out like, okay, what's our cadence of releasing one of them kind of every two weeks so that we have the right marketing message. And the team could focus on launching it the right way and landing the right way, and then calm the waters and then cycle back to the next one. We've been in that sequence here from mid-January and it'll keep going through the end of this month, so it's so fun when you have features coming out that you know will make an impact in getting to put them out there.03:37 DS: It's a funny thing that I'm trying to get better at but I have this tendency like once we start building something, I just wanna keep adding stuff to it. I'm like, "Oh, we could do this, and we could do this, and we could do that," and then the project scope just keeps creeping and we never launch the damn thing. [chuckle] So I'm trying to get to this part where like, "Shut up," it's like, "Okay, Darren, you got ideas, you put them on the phase two list and we're gonna get this core functionality released." And then the beauty is you've got multiple releases and you got multiple opportunities to push more marketing and more just promoting of the product every time. So if I just kept working on it, then we'd have one big massive release or we do the basic release and then five other releases after that as we keep adding all these extra functions that I wanna build.04:24 AW: I've actually gotten a lot better at that in the last year. I used to be very similar to what you're describing where it's like, "And one more thing, and one more thing, and one more thing." And now, I've done a much better job of saying like, "No, this is gonna be the V1 of this. Here's the dates we need to hit and then we will look at fast follow items or V2 items," things like that. And if anything I've found myself saying no to some of the things that the team is like, we should do this or consider this or whatever else. And it's been a strange reversal 'cause I used to be the one where they are just... I could see their eye, I could feel their eyes rolling when I was like, "Hey, I got one more thing we need to squeeze in here in the next few days."05:10 DS: Yep, totally. Yeah, we implemented a new process in our development on our dev team. So it's like a Monday planning call and a Friday retrospective call and we try to keep them short and it's just like on Monday, it's like, "Okay, you guys, what are you doing?" We have our ClickUp boards where we look at all the potential tasks we could do, and they just, they pick the ones that are doable within that week. Then on the end of the week, we look at it and we're like, "Did you get it done? If you didn't, what went wrong? Where were some of the challenges?" And sometimes they get more things done, and they squeeze it in. But this weekly really focused, "This is the goal for the week." I'm trying to block out everything else. It's like if something else comes up, it's like, "Put it on the list. We'll look at it next week." And so we're really trying to keep the team focused on the core goals and the core milestones and it's been helpful.06:03 AW: Yeah, awesome, good for you, keep it up. The discipline and prioritization and saying no is so powerful.06:11 DS: Yep, anything you just go on the list and we'll get to it one day, but right now, this is what we're focused on.06:16 AW: The ever-expanding list. That's something we can talk about some time.06:20 DS: Yep, totally. How's everything going with you? How's everything at GatherUp post-sale? It's all going great and continue to grow the business. You just had a huge feature released. The social sharing stuff looks awesome.06:33 AW: Yeah, super excited about that. We started that feature late last September. It was one of those where made a call. We had it slated later but with the drop of schema stars in search results from the review widget, we really felt like we wanted to get a marketing feature back out there that was a visible and tangible, got people excited. So social sharing was probably more slated to start work right about now but instead, we push that ahead of some other things. It's a great feature, basically gives you one more way to use your reviews and that we created a feature so it would turn your review into a visual image that you can then share on social media channels. And it's fun to have... I'm kind of putting together a post where what we're really saying is a review just isn't a review and with GatherUp, we can amplify it five different ways. And so you really wanna maximize that review instead of like, "Alright, we got it. Here it sits on the shelf in our Google My Business reviews," but it's really helping people understand like, "Here's how you use it on your website, here's how you can use it socially, here's how you can use it on this specific page and in this way," to really get people to maximize those hard-earned reviews.07:54 DS: Super smart. I remember I used to always think about how people would get testimonials and they just put them on their website and they would always ask for testimonials. And so my thinking was, "Don't ask for a testimonial, ask for a review." You get the review, now it's already on a public profile like on your Google listing or Facebook or whatever, and now you can use that on your website too.08:15 AW: Yep, absolutely, multi... You can make a review the Swiss Army knife. That's for sure, if you have your head around it the right way and we're just trying to point as many of those ways out and yeah, that social sharing feature. I think that's something we can do an episode on 'cause there's really some... I really challenge myself to think about that feature differently even when we created it 'cause people had asked for social sharing from us for a long time, but I really wanted to do it in a way that was attention-grabbing, excited people. Social media is a visual medium and I feel like we did a great job of finding the right way to embrace that and give people a really great marketing feature.08:55 DS: Yeah, I'd be interested in following up on that one too. I'm curious to find out what percentage of your user base adopts the feature and actually uses it. It's the kind of thing where you've got to engage and actually take the time to generate, press the buttons, and make it happen. So I'm curious if you have any logging set up to see how many people are using the feature and then maybe some what are some action plans to try encourage them to use the future down the road.09:22 AW: Yeah, absolutely. We can get into that down the road.09:24 DS: Future episode.09:25 AW: Yep, making note.09:25 DS: Yeah, making note.09:27 AW: Alright, so with that, let's dive into the main course of today and that's talking about the process as mentioned and hopefully as you listen in Episode 16, we talked about the why of Selling GatherUp. And today, I just kinda wanted to talk about and allow you, Darren to ask some questions as well about the process, more of the bullet-pointed items that you can expect in a transaction, at least sharing what we encountered with GatherUp. And so to kinda rewind what really kicked it off is we're at MozCon in July. I had our sponsor booth out there. During the conference, had a call set up with our contact at Alpine Software Group and we usually every six to eight months, we're having a call with them. We have had three or four, and it was just a normal check-in, building relationship, them asking how we're doing, how do things look for you guys moving forward, all of those different pieces, and just walking around in between the break at MozCon doing the call and at the end of the 15, 20 minute call, just wrapped up with them saying, "Hey, we're serious. We would like to put a number in front of you guys and make a real offer."10:45 DS: Nice.10:46 AW: Yeah, okay, and they were like...10:48 DS: You were the only one on that call so they just mentioned that to you? 10:51 AW: No, it's myself and Don. We were the two that were usually doing them with him. So Don Campbell and I on the call, one of our original co-founders. And yeah, they basically just needed three or four pieces and said, "Hey, we'll have a verbal offer to you in three to four days if you can hand these things across."11:11 DS: So at this point, you must have been sharing financials and stuff in order for them to consider an offer.11:16 AW: Yep, yeah. We shared a 2018 and 2019 P&L with them so gave them at that time about 18 months of history for how we are doing, and yeah, between that and then just kind of a scrubbed client list so they could see the accounts and sizes without the name to it just to understand the spread of what was there. And those are really the two main items that were there.11:45 DS: Were they interested in your organizational structure? Who are all your employees and what are the roles and all that kind of stuff? Did you have to share that stuff too? 11:56 AW: Yeah, not right off the bat, but that definitely came into play. So it's like that happened within the four days, they made the verbal offer. We discussed again, as we talked about last episode, we kinda already had... We had a line drawn in the sand of what we'd be interested in this was above that line, so we're like, "Alright, yeah, we're definitely interested," and we set up a face-to-face meeting for about two weeks down the road after getting the verbal offer.12:25 DS: I was gonna ask one thing. When you... So I'm just like, okay, what is it that makes one of these companies decide, "Oh yeah, this is a company we wanna make an offer for." And I'm curious about your growth rate over the two years of financials you gave them. And so, did you have 100%, 300% growth over that period or something like that? 12:44 AW: So what a lot of them... Well, everybody kinda has their own but I think Alpine Software group definitely was anchored to the Rule of 40. And if you understand the Rule of 40, it's your growth rate and profit margin exceeding 40%. And for us, we were well above that. Our growth rate was usually around that 40% year over year and a healthy profit margin as well. So we definitely fit into that piece, and this again where it was helpful and came in that they had already purchased a competitor of ours so they understood the space and the opportunity, and not just the metrics of a SaaS business but they really understood the metrics of a reputation management business in the SaaS space.13:32 DS: Yep, yep. Alright, cool.13:34 AW: Yeah, so then next the four of us, Don, Thomas, Mike and myself, we flew out to San Francisco and here we had three quarters of a day planned out. So it was talking a little bit more in-depth about the business as a whole, answering high level questions on customers and tech stack, taking a look at the... That's where we shared an org chart and a breakdown of the company and calling out certain performers and things like that with it so a much deeper level with it. It wasn't too difficult for us just because we'd always been very transparent and we had a lot of our stuff in order, so it was really easy for us to talk about a lot of those things and lay them out. And it was a nice kind of introduction too and understanding how they were thinking what they thought about us. Started to give some insight to what was important to them and why they looked at us and the positioning of their offer and things like that.14:38 DS: Were there any surprising things in that meeting where you were like, "Oh, we didn't think about this from a sales perspective," that came up, you're like, "Oh, we're gonna have to go and get that stuff organized"? 14:47 AW: Yeah, not so much. I mean the one thing that... A couple of things that were really interesting to me is one, in between the two weeks and in compiling this stuff together, it really made... And I would say myself and Mike, we really started to think a lot about their offer and what do we feel like we're actually worth. 'Cause now you have this number and there's so much, it's not like you get this handbook that says like, "Hey, your company should be worth this," or "this multiple," or whatever. You get some industry benchmarks and different things like that but it really allowed us to dig a little bit deeper on it. We actually went to that meeting with already getting everyone on the same page. Mike and I were very gung-ho and Thomas and Don ended up kind of agreeing and say, "Hey, you guys feel that way. We'll let you lead the way," and it really put a lot of confidence in our corner when I looked at it. I felt like we were pretty unique in where we are sitting as far as like who else in our space could be acquired and understanding that was definitely huge on your confidence side.16:00 AW: And so we went in and we had a counter to our offer that was roughly about a 20% increase from where we started, so it was a sizeable gain to the offer and put that out there at the end of our meeting with our contact and he's like, "Alright, today was great. Liked everything we heard. Let me bring that back to our team." And then, yeah, they called the next day and said that they agreed to our counter and the structure. The deal all stayed the same and everything else, and they were interested to put together the letter of intent.16:36 DS: It's gotta be so hard to like, okay, so they give you an offer, you think, "Okay, well, I think we're worth a bit more than that." You're gonna counter with the 20% increase, and then they accept it right away. You're like, "Dang, we should have done 30." [laughter] Did that ever cross your mind? Did we get the numbers right? Did you get as much as you feel like it was worth? 16:56 AW: Yeah, I didn't feel that way but you definitely felt scary thinking like, okay, they gave you this number that... Was it a good number, right? It obviously grabbed our attention. It met the minimum needs we had already outlined but it is scary then going in at the end and saying like, "Okay, we feel the number is this." And you really don't know even though you can have a good feeling, you can like the conversations, but what if that number took you to the point where they said, "You know what, at that number, we're just not interested, and we actually... We were wavering a little bit, so we'll actually just pull the offer off the table."17:36 DS: Yeah, for sure.17:37 AW: That is a possibility. Now, when you can emotionally step out of it, you realize that that probably is a little bit silly. But at the time...17:47 DS: Yeah, they would counter if they didn't like it.17:49 AW: Yeah, at the time, you feel so much emotion about it. You have excitement, you have fear, you have unknown, you have all these different things that thinking logically is really hard in this entire process.18:01 DS: Right, right.18:02 AW: And a couple of things that I really kept in mind is one, I had read Rand Fishkin's book on Lost and Founder and his history of the HubSpot offer and that offer being I think, if I remember the numbers right, they offered him 18 or 20 million, and he countered with 25 or maybe more. And they ended up not coming to terms and Rand massively regretted it because after taking on funding and everything else, they would have never personally made that much money again.18:36 DS: Yeah, that was the golden opportunity, missed it.18:38 AW: Yeah. And that was really helpful to... That was in the back of my mind, where I was like, "Be strong in what you feel like you're worth, but if you have a bird in the hand, don't squeeze that bird and crush it either."18:49 DS: Yeah, right.18:52 AW: It definitely is helpful. I even, I sent Rand an email. He didn't reply, but I just said, "Hey, because of you sharing that just know that it was helpful in our process to have this perspective of somebody who... " Good for him, that he felt that confident, but he obviously regretted it later that he probably should have moved forward with it. He just... It's hard. Your judgment can get clouded between emotion and maybe some greed, the fear of the unknown, all of those different things with it.19:22 DS: Yep, yep. I'm surprised he didn't reply.19:24 AW: Yeah. [laughter] He's usually would with it. I don't know, maybe I hit a spam folder, who knows? But anyway, I wanted to give him props for sharing his story and let him know that it actually mattered in a significant transaction of the same nature.19:39 DS: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I've got that book. I've read the first chapter but you know how books are, they just sit on your side table and you... I got a lot of first chapters read.19:47 AW: Yup, so do I. But that one I read all the way through. I'm glad I did. So once that happened, the next thing that we did internally that I would stress to people, especially if you have partners, multiple shareholders is, we had our CFO put a mockup of flow of funds. 'Cause you have this number and it's really easy to look at it and say, "Oh, here's my percent, and it's of this number." But there's a lot of other things inside of that number in what gets taken off the top in legal fees, escrow, different things like that and then...20:20 DS: Taxes.20:21 AW: Yeah, taxes based on people's partner shares, where those things come from. So you really need to run through that if you have any waterfall in your tap table and things like that, so that you're able to understand like, alright, what does that number actually look like to me and am I still okay with that number? 20:39 DS: Right. So what's gonna go in my bank account? Yeah, totally.20:41 AW: Yup, yup. So just considering that within all of the different pieces that's there because it definitely ends up usually being a different number if you have multiple people at the table than just straight looking at, "Oh, it's this number and I get 30% of it," or whatever that might be.20:57 DS: Can you talk about what the legal fees are in terms of, I don't know, percentage or that kind of stuff? Are there brokerage fees? Are there other fees that you don't even know about until you kinda go through the process? 21:10 AW: Yeah. So we didn't have a broker. At this point once we had the verbal, then we went and said, "Okay, let's get an attorney to do this." We talked with Don, being in California, he had a couple of people that we'd either worked with before in drafting some agreements and he kinda went and talked to them. We had an attorney here in Minneapolis that used to be our attorney at my last agency, Spyder Trap I was at. And Spyder Trap had actually been acquired prior, and then Barb's CFO had worked with that attorney on that, so we brought him to the table on it. And yeah, we just kinda had to make a decision. A little bit of it was based on ballparks that they gave us. When you're looking at... Here, it's kinda hard to describe with the numbers, but in our case it was a six-figure expenditure based on sale price but there's a lot of difference in what the six-figure expenditure was from one to the other.22:06 AW: And so it just kinda came down to us, like trust and comfort level and ultimately we went with Steve Kozachok, our attorney and... With the firm in Minnesota because Barb had worked with him before. We knew Barb would be doing a lion share of the work. I knew Steve as well from when he was our attorney at Spyder Trap so we set a high level of comfort there. He had done a number of transactions. We felt good about it and the short there is, he was awesome throughout the process and really did a great job for us and was really a pleasure to work with, and made himself very available to us throughout the process 'cause there's definitely some Sunday night at 9:00 PM calls when we could get everybody together on something while it was in motion.22:46 DS: Yeah, you're lucky you had that 'cause I can imagine if I was trying to sell right now, I'd be like, "Oh, I guess I'm gonna have to find a good lawyer that knows how to do this," and it'd be a bit of a crap shoot. I would ask around and see if I can get some advice but, particularly being Canadian, I couldn't ask any of my US SaaS friends for advice. So yeah, it's good that you had that in place.23:04 AW: Yes. It was definitely, definitely helpful but it great if we already had it in place but we made quick work of it, made a decision and it worked out very well. So once we had that wrapped up, then they jumped into giving us the letter of intent. I wanna say it was probably from the time the first verbal, then had our meetings, whatever else. It was probably around mid-August when the letter of intent was actually put together. Now, the LOI is like, this is your first official doc. It's a shorter, four or five pages and it's really the high level of... It kinda guides what the purchase agreement, which is gonna be much larger and much more detailed, looks like. So it's in that the letter of intent, this is where, yes, having a great attorney is helpful. Steve did a great job in explaining things to us 'cause there's a lot of right? "Alright, help us understand the legalese of this. If we decide this way or we ask for this... Just a normal, what are common give and takes? What do others ask for? What should we be thinking about?" And he did a really good job of helping frame that up and helping us understand the role it played in the process, what to ask for, what should be important to us, getting our input on it and then being able to make some revisions to that.24:16 DS: Can you give me an example of what are some of these things that you should ask for that he was advising you on? And you're like, "Oh, yeah. I didn't think of that." I'm just curious what are some things that people might overlook if they didn't have a good lawyer? 24:28 AW: Yeah, some of it comes into the cycle of reps and warranties. So how are they gonna go through your numbers and pick certain things out and what are you gonna be held accountable for, post-purchase? And things like that. Looking at things, we had a number of things regarding our team. So it's like, just to make sure, they said, "Hey, we're gonna keep your team intact and everything else." But we're also like, "Okay, once you have control, you can do whatever you want." So if you don't honor that, we wanna have written in, like, "Here's the severance package. If someone is terminated within X days of the sale, if it's non-performance based." So how do we create a safeguard for our employees there that if they decide, well, we don't want that person on payroll or we wanna cut what your payroll is or people in certain roles, that they were gonna walk away well taken care of and have good runway to find their next opportunity.25:24 DS: Smart, yes. That's the kind of stuff that a lawyer will catch and help you think about and make sure you have that in place. Was there anything in the agreement that was like, warranties like, "Oh, if we end up buying the company and this, this or this happens we can reverse the deal," were there any clauses like that in any of your... Either in your purchase agreement or your LOI? 25:44 AW: S1: Yeah, you're gonna have certain things with that. It's not so much reverse the deal but it just gets into who's gonna pay if that happens? Because really, you're trying to slice and dice. We're either buying and we're assuming this responsibility or we're buying, but we're not gonna assume this responsibility. If this is... We already see this could be a possible issue, a tax issue or something like that and you are gonna be responsible for that. We're not gonna take that on. So there are definitely pieces like that to it.26:17 DS: Yeah, makes sense.26:18 AW: Non-compete timing, things like that. Those are all pieces that you get a little bit more detailed on and take a look at. Like I said, again, it's like the high level, most important things and elements of that are in that letter of intent. Now in comparison, it's like, alright. A couple of back and forths, we agree on the letter of intent and then kinda starts like the full process. And then once you get going on that, then the attorneys from their side start putting together the purchase agreement. Now, the purchase agreement ends up being, I don't know if I can remember in our case, but it's probably somewhere between 60 to 80 pages. So over a 10x factor and then it is, it's every little detail and every little element to all the things that are there.27:05 DS: That sounds painful. Man, I find a 10-page legal document painful enough, but geez, that sounds... So much reading and so much, the legalese, and it's just... I do not enjoy slogging through legal documents of that size.27:19 AW: Yep, and that's where it comes in, again, having a great attorney, having great advice, someone that you can trust to read every word, so maybe you don't have to read every word. You can get the summary where Steve would come to us, our attorney, and say, "Alright, out of these things, here's the 11 things that I think you guys should care about based on everything we've discussed and what I know you want out of this and what's important to you. And so let's talk about these 11. Let me explain them. Let's talk about your position, and let's figure out if there's ones we wanna go back to them on and ask for something different or frame it up or a different time, or amount, whatever that might be."27:54 DS: Yeah, it's Steve's job to read it carefully and think about all the potential things that could impact you as your... You're his client. So he wants to make sure that it all works out in the best way for you.28:05 AW: Yep, absolutely.28:06 DS: Yeah, makes sense.28:07 AW: And within this process, too, I definitely can say this is a part, emotionally, where you move from a lot of excitement to a lot of pressure. Because one, you create this data room... We touched about a little bit this on the last one but you end up with 100 plus items that they want all uploaded in there. And in our case, we had 80-90% of these, well put together and organized but then there's definitely a bunch that Barber, our CFO, was wrangling and tracking down and where are they, and things that maybe from deeper in the history had a number of versions and what are the right versions and how do we get those together? Cap tables have changed, new partners came on, things like that.28:51 AW: And between the culmination of all these things and getting everything hardened and getting it delivered and uploaded and creating a spreadsheet and saying like, "Okay. Thomas, you're in charge of these 12 technical items getting them together. Aaron, you're gonna take these 14 items, customer contracts," all of these kind of things. And so it really becomes a team effort to help put those together and everybody to do their pieces and shares and you have... We are probably doing every two to three days, doing a call, looking at that list, what's needed, what's still out there, how do we get it, those kind of things. And you feel the pressure of that. That's when you start to feel like if we don't bring all of this to the table, will the price change? Will they start to think differently? What are those pieces to it? 29:38 DS: Yeah, 'cause at this point the purchase agreement is not signed, right? You're just kinda putting all the pieces together and refining the agreement. Yeah, that would be a stressful time. That sounds like a lot of different things, like 100 point list of things you have to gather and get together for them? Man.29:51 AW: It is. It's a very long list. It's just like your incorporation and legal documents, tax returns and anything related to that, your contracts with customers, your agreements with every service you use, NDAs, your employment agreements, other vendors. It's just like anything you've ever signed, agreed to and rightfully so, anything that they would have to honor or know existed or know it took place, they wanna see all of that to be able to assess all of it, make sure it's in line. What's their risk, what are they looking at? How long does it last? Any of those kind of things.30:26 DS: They're just looking any red flags, I can imagine it's like, "Oh, they've got this weird service agreement with this company." And that could be a problem or a conflict or whatever.30:33 AW: Yeah, absolutely.30:34 DS: Yeah, makes sense.30:36 AW: And then within this time frame, too... So Barb our CFO and I, we had made a trip or two on top of calls doing this out in person to do some of this as well. Going through your financials, answering questions out of the P&L, going through client lists, sitting down with other members of their team and you start to see... I didn't fully realize it, at the time. It took a couple of days after it but then I started to realize what they were mostly looking to do then is, model out. Okay, we buy these guys, what does the next year look like? And so you could see they were even starting their transition of, and rightfully so, they have to go back to their investors and say, "Alright, here is why we're making this investment. Here's how we think this investment is gonna pay off and pay out over the next year, two years."31:23 DS: Yeah, they're trying to project all of that and figure out what their return's gonna be, yeah.31:27 AW: Yep. And it's hard... In your mind, you view some of it as an interrogation where it's like they're doing it to maybe not do the deal or lower the price or all these other things. But in our case, you just started to realize like, no, it's just so they have all the facts so they can properly project what this is and they make sure that they have their hands and arms around it the right way more than anything else. And that definitely took me a little bit and then I had to kinda try to preach that to the rest of our partners just because everybody comes in with their own angle on trust and are they gonna try to do this and depending upon what horror stories you've read about... And it happens. Transactions fall apart and all those other things. So it's hard not to be influenced by some of that fear. But as you... As I start to see some of these pieces come together, it was trying to get everybody else on board like, "Here's the why in why they're doing this. It's not to blow the deal up. It's not to try to claw back money out of it. It's not to try to lower the price. It's to really get their arms around, once we get this, what are we gonna do to maximize it even more?" And they have due diligence to go back to their investors and do their own reporting, and proposals and all those kind of things to make everyone on their side providing the money comfortable with the deal.32:49 DS: Yeah, totally. They absolutely have to justify it and they have to have a plan in place for how they're going to turn their investment into three, four, 10 times, that. That's their goal, so yeah.33:01 AW: Absolutely.33:01 DS: We got to think about it from that perspective. And they're gonna, of course, need all of that information. And then I could feel that myself, if I was in that position being like, "Ugh. All of this work," and "Why do they want all this?" And starting to stress about it, but yeah. I think that's a pretty solid point that you have to think about it from their perspective and what their goal is with this acquisition.33:21 AW: Yep. And then it just gets more important to like what does your gut tell you about the group that you're talking to and who you're doing business with. And right from the start, our contact at Alpine Software group, Jake Brodsky was always on the up and up, always straightforward, anytime if communication got off on email, he and I would get on a call and we'd each explain our why and we would easily be back on the same page. My hope is that anyone doing this, you end up with a stand-up person like Jake was on our side because it made it really easy for me not to focus on all the what-ifs and to be able to focus on the why we're doing this. They're being true to their word. I understand where they're coming from. They understand where we're coming from when we make an ask, and that just makes it so much easier. And I know, but there's probably plenty of deals that just don't have those elements and I feel for that 'cause it's already stressful without hide and seek, and some dishonesty, and hand tricks to try to throw people off or get their attention somewhere else.34:22 DS: Yeah. How much time passed between the letter of intent and the signing of the full purchase agreement? 34:27 AW: Yeah, so first letter of intent, like I said, was mid-August, and then our final signing was basically October 31st. It was Halloween Day.34:37 DS: Right, like three and a half months.34:40 AW: Yep, yep. Pretty fast track. We were on track to close a little bit earlier but we hit a hurdle in the middle and, without going into details, it was one that everybody worked together and was multi-faceted to work through. But the thing I just tell people, expect there to be some hurdles. I feel like we had our stuff in really good order for the size company we were, how long we'd been around, things like that. I feel like we always operated from a very high quality, well-organized, well-process standpoint. And we still hit some stuff where it's just like... And you just have to have your mind around like, "This is not going to be a straight point A to point B. There's gonna be some curves in it. And just as you do in business, come at it solution-focused. Be ready to do the work, to communicate, keep everybody on track, keep communicating and you can likely find a resolution as long as it's like coming from the right place, with the right things in mind."35:40 DS: Yeah, makes sense. Okay, you're working on getting all these documents together, what are some of the other stuff that they're asking for you? 35:46 AW: Yeah, the technical audit. So this is where they go and kinda embed themselves in your environment. They're looking for, what open source software your using, what other software that contains licenses, do you have everything in place? How much of it is your own created code, to some extent? How solid does it look? They're asking a lot of questions around your methodologies, and development, what outages have you had, things like that. They're assessing the reliability and things like that. That side we felt pretty good. I've been in the world of development and websites and apps and things like that for long enough where I felt very confident that our stuff was good. And I shared this last time, after that part of it, they definitely complimented us and said, of their 20+ acquisitions, we were right there as if not the best of what they had gone through before. So, huge kudos to our team and just everybody's dedication to quality on that side. But that became one of the big positives for us.36:51 DS: Do they assess your documentation? 36:54 AW: Oh, Yeah.36:54 DS: Like your code documentation? 36:56 AW: Yep, yeah. They really look at every aspect of it. And I don't even know all of the aspects that they would look at it internally, but configuration, documentation, process, security, performance, all of those things, they wanna understand as much of that as possible, because... And I know, to some extent they've probably have had a few purchases where if you don't do enough digging, you get in and once you open up the hood, then it's like, "Oh, okay. We gotta rebuild here on some of these aspects."37:26 DS: I've heard that, yeah, I actually heard that with some acquisitions where they bought the company and they're like, "Oh great. Now we're gonna spend the next two years rebuilding this from scratch 'cause he's got so much technical debt in."37:35 AW: Yeah, yep. And time is money. Another thing that we started to do is they wanted the, they came and said, "Hey we wanna talk to customers in this area." And so roughly somewhere around 10 to 15 of our customers. And I know you ended up being one of those.37:56 DS: Yeah, I had one of those calls.37:56 AW: Yep, and how we just positioned it, we did a reach out and just said like, Hey, We're bringing on this form to assess how our clients feel about us. They're gonna do an interview with you, it's a 20-30 minute conversation. So just making it look natural to our customers and asking them would they be willing to help and give their feedback and opinion on it.38:15 DS: I was so positive on that call. It's probably the reason you guys closed the deal. I had so many good things to say.[laughter]38:20 AW: Dinner and beers coming your way this summer.38:23 DS: Great. [laughter]38:25 AW: Yeah, and that obviously, it was actually kind of fun. Got to read the transcripts of those after everything closed.38:32 DS: Oh, that's good.38:32 AW: Yeah, and overwhelmingly positive and it's... In that form and being a little bit longer, even though I feel like we have great relationships, we hear from a lot of our customers, we use our product to ask our customers how they feel about us. So it's in that. It was cool to read all that and to be able to share it across our team as well, just to see how customers felt.38:56 AW: Then by now we're in mid-October, we're coming close to the end of it. At this point, you kinda transition and you realize that major hurdles have been dealt with, were on track, you're trying to find an outline of closed date, and you start to look forward, right? And for me, I had to really start putting a lot of thought around like, "Okay, what does the end of this purchase look like 'cause I've never done it before? So what are the elements within the purchase agreement in itself?" And then you start thinking about the transition items that are there.39:26 DS: For sure.39:27 AW: And there's all kinds of small details that you realize are gonna change, gonna be different, and then you start thinking about the communication of this. And to me, this was something that was really important to us so you have to start aligning and kind of putting together a framework like "Okay, if we're gonna sign papers on this day, then the next day, we're gonna do one-on-ones with all of our employees and lay everything out for them," because you're not talking... We chose not to tell any of them through this process because of it can be a large distraction. You can cause people to panic and be worried like "Oh, if we sell then my job will be eliminated so I'd rather just go find another job."40:07 AW: So there's definitely a lot of reasons why you wouldn't wanna go to your entire team and say, "Hey, we're working on selling and it's gonna be a great thing. And for the next 90 days or more, it's gonna be drawn out but don't worry, we'll take care of it", right. You're better off to, in my opinion, just do the work, handle that side. That's part of your job as an owner and an executive is to shield them from that. Put the company on the right track. Negotiate things that are in their favor and all of those pieces.40:35 DS: Yeah, yeah totally.40:37 AW: And then after that, then communication with the clients, and then the public information as well. At this point, it was really coming up with, and to me, this was like a whole new level of stress because now it's like, alright, you're telling our team of 20 and you feel some stress from that, you feel some excitement with it too because you're giving them good news in a couple of different ways, but then knowing you're gonna send out an email to your thousands of customers, that's scary. And what's gonna come back from that, how are they gonna feel about it? All of those different things. And the last piece, once you go public, that's totally the easy part, and man, did that feel a lot better? But from the time we sign to it being public was 15 days.41:21 DS: Yeah, it's just like two-week sort of period of just limbo. It's like "it's done, but we can't tell anybody", sort of awkward situation.41:29 AW: And so when we signed that day, and had everything signed and then Mike Blumenthal and Paul and I since we were both staying on, we just started jumping on Slack, and grabbing our people. We had put everyone in list together, we had put together kind of a script that said like "Alright, we're selling, here to, here's why we're doing it. Your job isn't going anywhere. Our great team is part of the reason that they wanted us." We'd also set aside a percentage of the sale as a bonus to employees.41:58 DS: Nice, I was wondering about that.42:00 AW: Yeah.42:00 AW: And we basically had two different things: One was length of time with the company, we gave a dollar amount for every year they'd been with us and then we also had an impact bonus when we looked at how did they contribute, how did that contribute to growth, did they help bring other people on, what have they done for us? Things like that, and so it was cool. Some of our people got more than their year of salary out of this bonus.42:28 DS: Amazing, but yeah, everyone was probably pretty happy about it, right? Did anyone have any notable concerns where you're like "Oh yeah, I didn't think about that." Either they're an employee or a customer that was maybe not so happy about the deal, or was everybody happy the deal? 42:44 AW: I mean, there's a few from each bucket. You definitely have people who are more anxious about things like that. Overwhelmingly, from our team and this made me feel really good as a person and as a leader, overwhelmingly, most of them said when we asked about questions, fears, we're doing this thing like, "Hey, we know you just got this news and let's be honest, we're still working our way through it 90 days later, but is there anything top of mind?" And overwhelmingly, a majority of them replied to that with, "I trust you guys and I trust you to make the right decisions and so I trust you on this, and we'll find out on some of the other things, but I don't think for a second, you'd make a decision that would put us in harm or in a bad spot.43:31 AW: And that to me was like, that was really gratifying even more so than... Yes, it was great to give financial rewards to people who had been with the company a long time and hopefully help propel them further in life, retirement, day-to-day living whatever that is. We had one team member that was like, "Man, I've been saving to buy a house, this puts me over the top so helping someone by a house out of that was awesome." We had more than a couple of people cry, very common, where they would just say, "Can you repeat that amount again?" They wanted to make sure that they heard it correctly.44:04 AW: Yeah, so that part was really cool, and that took a lot of weight off my shoulders for about 24 hours and then six days later was the announcement to our customers, which that one just based on mass was much harder. And I can say there again, I probably got, the email came directly from me, and I probably had about 30 to 40 replies were "Congrats, couldn't happen to a nicer group. We're excited for you guys, we're excited you're staying on board." Things like that, just very supportive, right? They're working for the same things in their own business, and they totally took a stance of instead of "Oh, how might this impact me?" They're just like, "I celebrate you as an entrepreneur and as a business person. That was really cool.44:47 DS: Nice, yeah, there wasn't a single customer that was concerned about it, or...44:52 AW: No, we totally did. So funny enough, after I send it, the first email I get, 10 seconds later, I get a reply that's just a one-line "Cancel my account right now... "45:02 DS: Are you kidding me? As a joke, right? [chuckle]45:05 AW: No, not a joke and the thing was, the company Alpine Software Group had already purchased our competitor GradeUs. This cust...45:14 DS: Oh, and then they switched? 45:16 AW: S2: Yes, this customer was with grade us didn't like them switched to us, so they immediately had the opinion that we were gonna merge all those things, even though all of our messaging said, we're staying separate companies, there will be efficiencies that we will have together, but we're staying different brands, our solutions have variances, teams like all that kind of stuff. But, yeah, and so, in getting that the first 10 seconds I was like, "Am I might about to get 1000 more of these", right? I was like, "Oh my gosh." yeah.45:43 DS: And so did you talk him out of it or did he cancel? 45:46 AW: I asked her, tell me why you feel this way. I tried to... I don't wanna lose you. Let me help reinforce this, what else can I do. And there really wasn't any... At the end after three or four emails I was like, alright, I don't need to take up more of your time. I understand you're very firm in where you are. If you change your mind, please do. I would love the opportunity to show you. We're being honest in our word. But that one was a lost cause and there was, I probably had three or four other emails with some concern, and things like that. But again, the overwhelming and with thousands, you're going to have that, you're absolutely going to have that.46:22 DS: Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. I'm surprised that any of that happened, I don't know, it's just a weird response, in my opinion.46:30 AW: Yeah. Well, I mean be prepared for anything when you email thousands of people. [chuckle]46:35 DS: Yeah, totally.46:35 AW: Yeah. So interesting enough, on the one thing I do wanna share. So when everything comes to a close, there's basically a closing call, right, and it's a handful of minutes call with everyone from each side, legal on each side, those of owning the process on each side, and it's each side saying like, yep, we have all of our paperwork, we have everything we're in agreement. Same for this side, yep, we have everything, we're in agreement. And it's basically just to get a verbal from everyone, the okay to release the wire transfers and to release the funds to the shareholders. So, I had long planned, even some of this I had do plan around, I had a five-day family vacation that had been planned forever. And let's just say before this, I had been working crazy hours, like 80 hour weeks, super stressed, traveling a ton. I had like eight weeks straight on the road and I had let Alpine Software Group, know hey, when it comes to this date on November first, I'm on a plane with my family and this has to wrap before then, 'cause I'm gonna be on a time-out. Like I've been absent for so many reasons, and so based on the way things fall I'm like, "Okay I can do the call that morning before we get on the plane or whatever. I was hoping in a perfect world, my wife and I and our four kids will be through security. I'll go to the Delta sky Club, I'll take the call, all will be great, I'll come back and hug the family and we'll get on our flight and head off to sunny San Diego.48:06 AW: Well, We were behind, of course right, four kids, everyone packed, getting out the door. So, literally when the time comes for this call at 10:00 or 10:30, I can't remember which one it was, but I'm in line at TSA, and we are three away from getting our IDs scanned and boarding pass scan to go through X-ray and the scanner so I just tell my wife, you go with the kids. I have to make the call right now. I step back a few people in line and I like... I take the call for this to close the deal in the line of TSA. So I will never ever forget that was the... Again I was like super stressed about it and then it ended up being all of a two-minute call and just hung up and went and rejoined the family in the x-ray line, and we were off.48:56 DS: That's it.48:56 AW: Yeah.48:57 DS: Yeah, you know, you're not even supposed to be on your phone when you're at the TSA I think. Yeah, I'm surprised you didn't get tased. You're like in the middle of the call and someone comes in and tases you.49:05 AW: I'm like, yes, no and the deal is off, right? 49:09 DS: Deal is off, yeah. You didn't finish the call.49:13 AW: Interesting enough, right. A lot of founders, shareholders, would talk about right, it's that, it's real when the wire transfer hits your account. Well, funny story, for me there. Mine was going to my investment bank, so it had to hop a couple of banks and basically my wire got stuck at one of the banks and so my money didn't hit for another like four to five days, I had to make calls on it, I had to help them track it down through routing numbers. It was very non-climactic and all right, where it's like some of the other guys are within an hour or two were like, I got it, yeah, and whatever else.49:50 DS: Popping champagne and you're trying to find your money.49:53 AW: And I didn't even tell them any of that. This is probably the first time I'm sharing this out loud where it's just like after a day or two, I was like, what's going on, and then my investment bank helped track that down and everything else, but it was very anti-climactic where as finally where I could open the app and see the money was there and it was just like, I think we were sitting out on the patio already having a drink at the hotel in San Diego right on the beach and I just go, "Hey my money did show up." and we're just like cheers, so. [chuckle]50:21 DS: Yeah, yeah, awesome, that's funny. I feel like, you're stressing about when is my money gonna show up, but.50:29 AW: Yeah, so anyway all's well that ends well.50:32 DS: It all worked out, all worked out.50:34 AW: It did.50:35 DS: So yeah, now what's next, what do we gonna talk about next podcast? 50:37 AW: Yeah, part three, I wanna dive into some of the transition things right and share. There's some interesting aspects emotionally going from, you run this race, you run the race to the finish line and then you're kinda like what's my new motivation? It's like you always had this carrot of your equity and selling the business and getting this exit, and outcome. And for me in staying with the company I definitely think there are some things where it took me the last couple of months at the end of the year to kind of refocus, get my personal life back in order. I've been working so crazy and you're almost manic to a certain sense and it's like finding time to get yourself back to normal...51:23 AW: I'm helping the team map out things. There's some things that Alpine Software Group did that were really helpful in bringing our team together and I wanna talk about some of those, and then just helping the business not get too distracted. Because that caused a lot of distraction and a lot of...51:41 DS: Slowdown.51:41 AW: Uneasiness. Yeah, and it's like how do you get things calibrated back to the cadence where you were before or even better? And so I definitely wanna share what that's looked like for us 90 days after closing. And there's definitely...51:57 DS: Great.51:58 AW: Yeah, some interesting things to talk about there.52:00 DS: Man, such a great, interesting process, the whole thing. I really love all three of these episodes and I'm really looking forward to the next one. I have a lot of questions. And that whole feeling like when you sell your company, how does it change? There's so many things to think about, so many new details to incorporate into your company culture and your processes. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to that.52:19 AW: I wish truthfully, and this has been great to talk about this and it forces me to think about some of it and put it on paper in our notes to talk about these angles, but I really wish we could have done a reality show out of it.52:33 DS: Yeah, that'd be amazing.52:34 AW: Yeah, I would have loved to see a more accurate view of even how I was during this. It's because I truly don't even know. My wife, Marcy, has definitely provided me some insight and man, she was amazing. She got that I needed so much room to operate and I was so stressed and she did everything she could to keep me grounded and centered. And this isn't the world. It's not everything and everything else, but then also give me the room to go work crazy and not be there at kids' events and things like that because I'm working on all of these things nonstop. So it would definitely, it would be interesting to be able to look at it from the outside and see how you were and be like, "Do I recognize myself in that moment? What I see, what I see now, does that match up with what I thought I felt at that moment?" That would be really interesting.53:28 DS: Yeah, you just need the cameras following you through the whole process and then you could go back and review it, a little self-reflection.53:34 AW: Yeah, I don't think I'd be as dramatic as The Real Housewives of whatever city you choose to watch but I probably had a moment or two [chuckle] where it's like, "Alright, Aaron's off the rails a little bit" and then either Marcy or talking to one of our partners would definitely help bring me back to where things were, so.53:51 DS: Yeah, the real entrepreneurs of Minneapolis.[laughter]53:57 AW: Awesome, missed opportunity. If I ever get to do this again, I am calling the networks and being like, "Alright, let's do this." Yeah, here's a totally different reality show you need to make happen, so.54:08 DS: Sounds like it would be great. That would be an amazing show actually, but there'd be all these things you can and can't say. But you can all cut, edit it all out. Put it on the cutting room floor.54:17 AW: Yeah, no, absolutely.54:19 DS: I'm surprised that show doesn't exist. Shark Tank people should do that.54:23 AW: Let's get to a different part of things. Alright, well with that we should probably wrap, man. We are pushing in the hour but hopefully everyone listening found this to be extremely beneficial. Thank you for letting me share a pretty amazing chapter out of my business story. That's for sure.54:41 DS: Thanks so much for sharing it. I feel like, man, these episodes are so valuable. I think that for me personally hearing all of these information, it's so useful. It's great to be able to wrap my head around all of these different things and think about all the different things you have to think about when you're selling your company. So I love these episodes and that I hope that the audience is liking them too.55:03 AW: I can easily say I wish I would have had even more resources while going into it, during it, all of those things. So that's definitely my goal is to help others as they go into this, just have some framework. And obviously every acquisition can be so different. I'm just sharing what it looked like for us but I think some of the things are staples and are true and maybe they're just some of the things on what to look out for, what to pay attention to, how to make good choices, can be beneficial.55:33 DS: Yep, yeah, really good, alright, Aaron.55:35 AW: Well, with that episode 17 is a wrap. We will have part three of the Gather Up Acquisition coming up a few weeks down the line. Do you wanna remind people? I do wanna say thanks, man. I had a couple people reach out to me on LinkedIn and Twitter, and send me messages and just say, "Hey, thanks for sharing your story, really enjoying part one of it. Looking forward to part two," so thanks to those of you that took that time. If any of you feel compelled, we would love if you took the time to give us a review on iTunes. Help make our podcast as visible as possible or any sharing of it socially via LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, wherever you're hanging out, passing it along inside of some of the groups you might be, Slack groups, or Mastermind groups, or SAS groups you're a part of if you think there's anyone that might benefit from this. Definitely appreciate you circulating it and bringing more listeners to what Darren and I share on a monthly basis.56:32 DS: Yes, please.56:33 AW: Alright, with that, take care, everybody and we'll talk to you soon.56:37 DS: Alright, thanks, Aaron. See you.56:37 AW: See you, Darren.56:38 DS: See you next time. Bye.[OUTRO music]

Helpful links from the episode: Whitespark's Google My Business Service Whitespark's Local Rank Tracker GatherUp's Insights Report 100+ Online Review Statistics resource  FreshChalk: 150k small business websites teardown Getting started in public speaking and presentations Whitespark Local Pulse email Whitespark weekly videos (YouTube) FULL SHOW NOTES:[Intro music]00:11 Aaron Weiche: Episode 11, Marketing your bootstrapped SaaS.00:16 Show intro: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. Sharing the adventure of leading and growing a bootstrap SaaS company. Hear the experiences, challenges, wins and losses shared in each episode from Aaron Weiche of GatherUp and Darren Shaw of Whitespark. Let's go.[music]00:42 Aaron Weiche: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. I'm Aaron.00:46 Darren Shaw: And I'm Darren.00:47 AW: After a nearly month hiatus and a failed podcast attempt, Darren we are back hopefully in the groove of things and can return to a more normal schedule of recording.01:00 DS: Yes, that was quite disappointing at MozCon. We thought we were gonna get a nice podcast recorded while we were in person. That was gonna be really exciting, but so many technical difficulties, that was quite frustrating.01:14 AW: Yes. Mark us down as being complete newbies in live in-person podcast recordings. We made a lot of attempt and just ended up failing, and let's just put that behind us. There's bound to be a failure along any journey, right? 01:32 DS: I thought we did it though, and I thought it was a success, but then I guess we didn't get the file, I think it was all network problems and stuff. It was too bad.01:42 AW: Yep. No glory to be had at the end of it but... With that we've had literally about four to five weeks since we've talked at length and since we've recorded an episode. What's been going on with you in that time? How have you been living these last days of summer? 02:02 DS: Well, I did go on a family vacation which was amazing. We went to Nova Scotia, we'd never been out East before and it was magical, it was just such a nice, relaxing vacation. We typically vacation in big cities and then we pack our days with going to all the museums and sites, and we've got lunch, breakfast, and dinner planned every single day at all the different places we wanna eat at. Whereas this was just like a we went to a rural type cottages in Nova Scotia just by the ocean and just hung out and it was relaxing and it was awesome. And we loved it so much, we're probably gonna re-book again for next year.02:44 AW: Nice, sounds like a winner.02:45 DS: It was great, yeah. It was good. And so, I guess, on the business side, so much going on always at Whitespark. We launched a new landing page for our Google My Business Management Service. It's got better screenshots, and we've kinda tweaked the copy a little bit, talked a little bit about some of the benefits a bit more, and it definitely seems to be converting better. So we're seeing those orders trickle in and our team is getting a little bit stretched thin. So we're gonna do some hiring this week. I have an interview set up tomorrow, so we'll keep building that team and that service, I'm excited about that. We're also transitioning our citation building team, so we've been working with OptiLocal for, I don't know, seven years now, as our citation building partner, and so we're bringing that all in-house now, so it'll all be managed by our in-house team led by Nyagoslav Zhekov, citation expert extraordinaire. We are about to launch some major improvements for our Rank Tracker, those are finally finished. I had a call with Jessie, our marketing lead today about how we're gonna promote the launch of these new features, so I'm excited about that.04:00 AW: What are... Real quickly, what are some of the improvements to the rank tracking tool? 04:05 DS: Yes. The Rank Tracker new features are the, basically we wanted to add screenshots. So it's the stagnant that lots of people have been asking for. So we started this, "Okay, we're gonna add screenshots to the Rank Tracker." And once we started getting in there, we found all these other things that we wanted to fix and do and change and improve, and so it's been a fairly significant overhaul, but it's not a significant release. Like the big announcement is, "Oh, now you can do screen... You'll get a screenshot of every search result page." But there's a whole bunch of stuff behind the scenes that we rewrote, reworked, made it more efficient, made it actually accurate. And once you get in and you discover actually, our visibility score is totally wrong. [chuckle]04:48 DS: We started fixing a whole bunch of things and the release has a bunch of bug fixes, user interface improvements, and the screenshots. And so, I'm pumped about that, that is coming down the pipeline right away and I'm gonna do some videos. This is another thing we've never done on the landing page, I wanna have this overview video where I show people what's awesome in the tool and why it's great, and it's something that I've always meant to do and I've been holding off because I know there's a few problems with our production version of Rank Tracker, so once we flip switch on this one, I'm gonna make these videos and update all of our marketing too.05:24 AW: That's awesome, and you are great at those videos from the other video work I've seen you do. That's definitely a hole for us, so good for you, and yeah, that'll be great, that sounds awesome.05:38 DS: Yeah, I'm excited about that. And man, so we're building this one, like a whole new account system with Stripe and all the ordering pages will be done, all the subscriptions authentication, this whole thing's being built, and then it's meant to really facilitate our citation services. Right now when people order, they have to send a spreadsheet of their location info, and then we do the job and we send them the spreadsheet back. It is so 1998 janky, crappy unprofessional stuff, it's bugged me forever. So we're building what we call the location manager where you can add all of your locations, and that's pretty much built and done. And when you place an order now, it just... You select which location from our location manager you want us to do work on, and then everything is just nice, and in the platform. But in the process we decided we're gonna... Well, allow it to sync with GMB, and so we did that. And honestly, my part-time student developer was like, "Oh this GMB API is great." And the dude has already built Google post scheduling, Google Q&A monitoring, Google review management, he's built Google photo management, so we actually have a full GMB management platform that we're about to launch too. So all of that stuff is coming together so nicely, and I'm excited about that.06:53 AW: Isn't it amazing when you have a good API, good documentation? Although my team might argue how good most of Google's APIs are.07:02 DS: Right yeah.07:02 AW: But when you have those things, and then you have someone ambitious to do those, it is it can just be a free for all.07:09 DS: Yeah, and it's really the feature releases are coming fast and furious. And so I'm like, "Alright, sweet, this platform is looking so beautiful". And I've got Nick working on the user interface and the design of it. And this analogy I have that I'm really excited, I can't wait to launch this. It's like, you remember back in the day when everybody used Skype as their internal chat system? We did anyways.07:34 AW: Yeah.07:34 DS: We used Skype, and we had groups in Skype, and then Slack came around and it just felt so much better, it had a more modern interface, it had a great feel that you could do fun things in it. This is the analogy I feel about what we're about to launch. And I could not be more pumped about it, because it just... It's a dream to use and it makes me really happy. So I can't wait to put that out the door.08:00 AW: Nice. Yeah, you have a lot of good vibes going on, you got... I like that, I like that momentum. Maybe we should talk less frequently.08:07 DS: Yeah, good vibes all rounds. Good stuff. Yeah, the future is looking bright, just gotta get this stuff launched. How are you? What's going on? 08:16 AW: Oh man, it's all going on, which is a fabulous thing. I've obviously spent a lot of my time with our newly... Our two new outbound sales team hires. So, you do all this work to find the right people and interview and get them on board. And then comes especially when you're someone who sells and you've been doing a lot of it just by the seat of your pants. And now you realize how much more I need to structure things, right? I realized it even before they were hired and started working on a lot of those pieces but just so much into getting organized for training, and building out better processes and, down to the smallest details and how to have better organization. So just, a ton into that, and you mix in the... Lately, I've been on probably every other week travel schedule, so in the office for a week, then on the road for a week. So, not only all your meetings are compartmentalized into one week when you're actually back and in the office, for calls and demos, and your own sales calls, and then all your sales training and those things as well. So definitely really intense when I am back and able to be fully present on more day-to-day things and training with them. But it's all been great. The uptake for them has been really solid. One has already closed a deal. The other one has one out for electronic signature right now.09:51 DS: Nice.09:52 AW: Hopefully it shows up soon. Yeah, so both of them closing deals in their first month of being with us. But yeah, it's a lot of work and you start to realize a lot of holes and gaps when you're starting to try to systematize a lot of things and create processes and repeatable processes. And then I also, where one part of it is really awesome that two reps at once, and so you're training them both at once. And you can double up on so many of those things, not only with me but as they spend time with others in the company. But then you just start seeing just... It's no different than when you have two kids. And how different each of your kids are.10:31 DS: Right.10:32 AW: You start to see like, "Alright, here's how I'm gonna have to manage them differently. Here's their pros, here's what's great, and then here's where an area of challenge or area of opportunity and growth."10:42 DS: Yeah.10:42 AW: And I need to actually personally address that with them. So now it's starting to split out a little bit where it's like, "Alright I have some work to do in specific areas. It's not all just like, everything's doubled up at once. No worries, it's a two for one." So.10:55 DS: Sure. You didn't quite get the two-for-one.[laughter]10:58 AW: No, I didn't get the same exact person. Maybe you need to hire twins, when you hire. [chuckle]11:02 DS: Exactly. All your new sales hires will be twins going forward.11:07 AW: Yeah. But all really great things. But the hard part has just been tough, when you are somebody, right? I have 100 things going on at once. I still find a way to keep 99 of them usually going. But then when you have to slow down, stop, and turn it into process and documentation and those things, you really have to focus and it takes up a lot of time, but then you see what the benefits are too. So it's a really good reminder.11:29 DS: Yeah.11:31 AW: Based on our early success with that we're hiring another CS lead for our customer success team. We're starting to see our on-boardings ramp up with more and more deals being signed, and we've already identified how critical that is to success with our platform.11:48 DS: Yeah, we gotta get into that.11:50 AW: Yeah. So with that we're actually... As much as we have ever, we're hiring ahead on this which by the time they get on board, it won't be ahead then, but usually about the time this person is gonna end up starting that's when we would have usually said, "Oh man, we could really use someone else." So we are four to six weeks ahead which is... You'll take those small wins, right? 12:16 DS: Absolutely, yeah, we're trying to do that with our new GMB management service hire. So, I know what the capacity is of the team, but I'm also projecting based off of how many orders are coming in, and based off of the potential that an agency might say like, "Hey, we have 20 clients on board." So that's why it's like, "We better hire now, even though we don't need that person immediately we're gonna bring them on and get that person started. So that by the time we do get a little slammed we have the resources in place to manage it."12:46 AW: Yeah, for sure, and it's... We're trying to get better at predictable hiring and understanding numbers and capacities and things like that. We still have a long way to go but yeah, when you get kind of these nights, it's like I didn't have to have six people tell me this is breaking us. We were able to see like, "Oh pretty soon they will say that. So let's do something about it."13:11 DS: Great. Nice.13:12 AW: Yeah, really good. Product-wise, we launched a really big feature, we've been pretty launch heavy this summer but our last really big one within the last month is our Insights Report. It, in essence, is Natural Language Processing, so using some machine learning and AI, all the buzz words. It's powered by IBM Watson. And it's really designed to take... If someone writes three or four sentences around a review, we're now breaking it out into specific keywords in the context of those keywords, the sentiment of those keywords, and give people a broader view. 'Cause if you have a four-star review, that three things were awesome, but here's the one thing that held me back, businesses really need to understand when that happens as a whole or what does that look like and what are those, the food is great. The place was great. The pricing was great but the service really could have been better. The service wasn't exceptional, and helping them figure those out.14:17 DS: I got a little demo at MozCon and it looks really great. I love the visual where you can see the big green bubbles are like, "This is where we're good.", and the red bubbles are a "This is where we need to improve." So it's really smart. Quick glance at where you're doing well and what you're not, and it's amazing you can pull that out of the review content. I love it. It's a great feature.14:38 AW: Yep, it's been really exciting. And just as you noted, we also... We took some product approaches too where we wanted it to be a visual feature. And so we really looked at shapes, colors, layout, things like that, how do we make this something that is really visually pleasing and informative because so much of our content or data just its rows, tables, percentages, things like that. So we wanted to be able to bring some of that appeal to it as well. And when we outlined it, there's already a lot of tools doing natural language processing, doing sentiment analysis and we just kind of took a little bit deeper stab at it. The main thing we're trying to do with it is showcase what's the impact and understanding, when people are talking about this, this is what leads to your strong performances that raise your review average, and when they talk about this, this is what weighs you down and brings your review average down. So not just individually looking at terms, it does that as well, it outlines that, but we really wanted to show you what's having positive impact and what's having negative impact on your average experience for a customer.15:50 DS: Yeah. It's a really good feature. It's a great sales tool for you as well. So when you get in those conversations, you can show that feature and it's the kind of thing that will really click with prospects where they'd be like, "Oh we need that," That's awesome.16:03 AW: Yeah. Yeah. Especially with larger locations 'cause we can index hundreds or thousands of Google reviews, and already show them how people look at this without them even having to work with us, day one.16:15 DS: Amazing. Yeah, totally great. Pour it all in and then...16:18 AW: Great resource.16:19 DS: Yeah.16:20 AW: Yep. And then from, as I mentioned the buzzword marketing side, some of those things you do have to look at and there's all kinds of jokes around the software world that you'll get bought or people will pay you money if you have the buzzwords of AI or anything else but you do have to check those boxes. And as I always look at it, there's features you build around utility that you help do things, automate things, whatever else, and then you have this second layer of features that is more about what can we teach you, how can we help you think, how can we help you make a decision. And that's where this one falls into. And it was maybe our first or second, depending on how you look at some other things, foray into that starts to really... Let's simplify some thinking for you and point out some things you might not be aware of.17:10 DS: Yep, well it's a great feature. Congrats on that launch, yeah.17:13 AW: Yeah. Cool. And then planning hard, we have our North American Team Summit, so I think the North American team size is 14 now. We have that in the end of September. We bring everyone into Minneapolis and then we head about three hours north up to a resort. Fall is a beautiful time here and we spend four concentrated days together between company-sharing and having everybody on the same page since we're all remote, allowing everyone to interact and get to know each other better. Brainstorming exercises, future planning and then a lot of fun. When you get to eat every meal together. We've done things like escape rooms and boat rides and things like that. It really is... I don't know, I might re-brand it as "Camp GatherUp", but it's really a good time and everyone looks forward to it, so that's a lot of fun to plan that.18:09 DS: Yeah, it sounds wonderful. I wanna do stuff like that with my team, of course, but now it's not the time. We're in build mode. Once we're in the night sales mode that you're in, then we'll get there.18:20 AW: Yep. And it took us... To have that full out one last year was our very first one. We've had bits and pieces of ones, and when our team was really small, we had one that basically included everyone and that was all of five of us getting together. But yeah, to reach these bigger numbers and to bring everyone together from all across North America's... From our team there is definitely exciting.18:46 DS: Awesome.18:46 AW: And then lastly, where we tried to record our podcast live and failed, but MozCon was just a fantastic event for us. The number, the amount of exposure, the number of leads, the energy, all of those things were just incredibly fabulous for us, we'll still see. I just had one of my new sales team ping me and they just said another demo where you set well passed a dozen demos. We probably had about 80 very qualified leads. We've signed one or two deals. I have another couple that are in like legal or in approval process. So, just highly valuable, highly profitable for us. It was just a fantastic event that we still have a lot of energy and momentum going from that almost basically a month ago now.19:41 DS: Amazing. Huge congrats, that's awesome because, yeah, I totally feel that. When we did MozCon, it's just this great conference and it's so nice that there's only eight other vendors there, so you really get this great attention, and they put the snacks right down there where the vendors are, so all the vendors are, or all the attendees are having a snack and then checking out what kind of stuff you got going on. So yeah, it really drives a lot of people.20:09 AW: Absolutely. And with that, let's segment in, that's what we wanted to talk about being at a conference in any capacity whether it's a sponsor, a booth speaking whatever else is all part of the marketing and that's what we wanted to talk about today was marketing for your SaaS company. And this one too, I see a lot of when I'm on Facebook groups or Slack groups of SaaS companies, marketing is obviously a very large topic because so many of us feel like we understand how to build a product. We don't always know the right things to build and what whatever else but that the most challenging thing is how do you find users, how do you let them know that your product exists and that you're out there solving a problem and you have what they need with it, so marketing such an important piece. And interesting enough, we might not have too much variants in what you and I talk about today because I would say we are both from the school of a massive inbound marketing focus for both Whitespark and GatherUp.21:15 DS: Yeah, we really are, and I don't know if we're just a little bit lucky when I think about, let's say if I were to SaaS starting out right now, it would be really hard to get to where both of us are and I think you would probably be smart to explore paid rather than just inbound or you obviously wanna do both. But in order to kick-start, you might wanna start doing some paid stuff right off the bat like we have the advantage of being in early, early writers, speakers, about local search, and so we've sort of already built up an audience before we even had really good products.21:53 AW: Yeah, absolutely, I point to the fact all the time with having Mike Blumenthal, as one of our co-founders. Yeah, he already had and there's all kinds of marketing that will talk to you if you already have someone that has a community or you have representation or contact in that community, you need to leverage that big time. And our early success, we still have trailing success off that, we owe so much of that to Mike and his reputation and the thousands of articles he wrote before he ever even was part of launching our product.22:26 DS: Yeah, basically, your product launched with immediate trust. It was like, "Oh, Mike Blumenthal is behind this. This has gotta be a good product." Because he is such a well-respected luminary in local search. So it's like you have immediate credibility with the product. And so that was huge for you guys, for sure.22:46 AW: So what is it from you at a high level? We can break down into some of the specific pieces of what goes into inbound marketing but, why do you feel that inbound marketing is your A-game and how you built Whitespark? 23:01 DS: Yeah, I think we've been fortunate, we were early writers about citations, specifically. I think what had happened was we created a local citation finder, and then I really wanted to learn everything about citations and I just started writing about it, doing research projects on it, so I was lucky to contribute, to collaborate with David Mihm on some early research that go put up on Moz and then I got to do a community speaking spot at Moz about some of that research. And so it just, inbound became the natural channel because I was passionate about learning about it, researching it, and writing about it. And so I guess that kind of is inbound is content marketing, you're creating something that is a new that will attract a lot of attention particularly around all the SEO agencies, they're like, "Well how does this work?" And so when you're trying to answer those questions, if it's research-based questions, then it can drive a lot of eyeballs and those eyeballs will then eventually look at your products and services. So that's kind of how it evolved for me. How about you? 24:11 AW: I've just always been positioned towards sharing what I'm doing. This podcast is even no different. I've always looked to expose what I'm doing and early on I should go back and try to pinpoint a day but like pretty early adopter of blogging and sharing what the company was doing, and I always equated to it of more calling it like perception-based marketing. Are you creating your perception of what your company is doing and what your company can do, and the benefits your customers are getting out of it. And I found that really important back when I was running digital marketing agencies to share, here is not only the websites were creating, but here's the process. This might be a hand sketch or a wireframe and sharing that visually or sharing those processes. And to me it really led to then when buyers were looking to find someone to design or build their website that they're like, "Well, we understand your process really well. We saw things in some of your blog content that we hadn't had the last time we did our website and that looked really, really appealing."25:23 AW: So I think so many of those wins like led me towards like, you just need to find the right ways to amplify what you're doing, how you can help, how you're thinking. And I get paid is that, and in more of an instant format but I don't know, I just had personally kind of always gravitated towards more of content marketing and organic search and things like that. Because there's also part of paid that if you really have your stuff together, it can be an incredible flywheel. But I always felt like I was missing too many pieces on just the exacts of certain things to get it. Whether it's keywords and phrases that you're bidding on and bid management, landing pages, the funnel, like all of those things. It just felt almost daunting. Sometimes it's like, "Oh if I have any one of these six things wrong in the funnel, it's gonna bork what the outcome is and I'm wasting money then."26:23 DS: Yeah, I think one comparison I often have in my head between inbound and paid marketing, is that inbound comes with this baked in credibility and trust whereas paid doesn't. It's almost like, if you tell someone that you're really awesome and you should work with us, that's a lot different than someone else saying it. And so when you are putting out content, really good content that everyone is sharing and everyone's talking about, then you have a lot more credibility than just putting out an ad. If you just put out an ad that it says we're the best, but then if you have a whole bunch of other people saying, "Oh, this company is really good, they know what they're talking about. They've shown that they really understand this space." Then that's what inbound marketing can do. Inbound creates a lot more word of mouth too because there's just a ton of sharing. No one is gonna go and share your ad, but people will share a really great content. And so, it's just so much more valuable I think than focusing on an ad. And of course it costs less. It costs a lot less. People I know of, lawyers that are spending 100 grand a month on Google Ads. It can be so expensive.27:36 AW: Yeah. No, totally. So with what does content marketing look like for you guys? Do you have a formalized strategy that someone own it there? Is it just when people have things they then write them and share them? What does that look like at Whitespark? 27:53 DS: So, yeah, no, we do not have a formalized strategy. We are blessed to have a recurring massive content amplifier called the local search ranking factors. So, a huge thanks again to David Mihm for letting me take that over. It's a big one that tends to drive a lot of credibility for Whitespark. I do a lot of my, for example, one of the thing that actually drive this, I'll commit to going go speak at a conference, and then I'm like, "Oh crap, I better figure out what I'm gonna talk about." So I always try to do original research where I can. And so the conference obligations often drive something new for me, where I'll rack my brain and be like, "Well, what would be interesting to people?" And so, then I'll put together some new research. Like our recent success would have been my MozCon case study.28:43 DS: So, I think that drove a lot of interest and a lot of new eyes to Whitespark. And then when they're there then they start looking at, "Well what else does Whitespark do?" So, it's not formalized and then a lot of our content just comes out of everyday work. It came up a lot recently about Google suspensions. So Google listing is getting suspended and Allie has been researching it and putting some time on it. So Allie we're like, "Well, we should make a blogpost out of this." So Allie puts together a blog post. So a lot of it is just driven by what's going on in the company. It's not really formalized, it's not strategized. Jessie does a pretty good job of nagging us. She's like, "Hey, we need some more content. Who's got something? What can we put out next. It's been too quiet around here." So she does a good job of prodding us. But other than that, there's no strategy. Do you guys have any strategy or it's just like you have an idea and then you do it. How does it work at GatherUp? 29:42 AW: Yeah, so we've tried to evolve our strategy just a little bit more than having no strategy. One piece of that was last year, roughly about a year ago, we hired a content and product marketer specifically that we basically told her you own all the words now. So she's across a number of things, releasing or write, user guide posts and feature release post and a number of things like that. And we've really tried to go the route of like, "Alright, we have enough to say about the product. We obviously get thought-leadership articles from Mike and myself." A number of different types, and learn anything else. Now it's like, "Alright, we should be having something going to our blog every week, in one way, shape, form or another." So that type of repetition we've really gone after it. And we've had a lot more discussions on creating things that sometimes, "What can we do that it's a little more evergreen." Like month ago we compiled a post that we're continually adding to of 100 plus online review statistics.30:54 DS: Sure. Yeah, that's a great one.30:56 AW: Yeah, as a new one, I just sent a link today that had three new stats around healthcare and online reviews, and we'll add that. So that'll be a growing piece. We're starting to see some of the organic search pay back for that with people talking about it, being mentioned for it, being the source of research in their articles. So we're evolving a little bit more with that. Some of the areas I think we're still really challenged is, we write a lot of content that's for everyone. And I think if we could niche down a little bit more and say, just how we look at it. We've written maybe two articles all time on our blog that are strictly just for digital marketing agencies, and we really should be doing one a month in my mind because that's a good part of our customer base. And, or specifically writing something like, "Alright, this is just for restaurants," or, "This is just for home service companies," and we're starting to get a little bit better with that. But you have this feeling like, "Oh, if I write it, it needs to be applicable for everybody and you have to get comfortable with." No, I want this to be a really great piece for a specific audience. And then down the road, I will write something else equally great for another specific audience that we serve.32:10 DS: Or even the same kind of content, so the content could be like what restaurants need to think about around reviews and you've got all the statistics around restaurants, you could pull data that's a restaurant-specific and then you've got this sort of template you can now use for insurance agents, or for plumbers, whatever.32:30 AW: Yeah and that's one thing even just outside of blog content, we're trying to create some more static landing pages for each industry. We have five or six industries that we work really well, and we really understand everything else and so we need, we're in the process of creating content. So, it is specifically like, "Here's how GatherUp helps restaurants. Here's how GatherUp helps insurance and finance industry. Here's how GatherUp help self-storage." So more speaking their language, detailing the benefits to them and how the features roll up into making those benefits happen is something we're trying to get better at. We're trying to have a lot more micro-conversations and being very specific and having a lot of intent with what we're putting out there.33:17 DS: Yeah, I've always thought about doing that industry-specific stuff, too. And I don't think that our current software offerings lend themselves to that very well, but with what we're building, I really see how we can focus content around specific niches, to speak to how our software is good for those specific industries. I'm looking forward to having that with our new platform.33:41 AW: Yeah. It's hard for me, but when I boil down to, here's the thought I arrive at is, no matter what if I write something and it gets 1000 page views in the first month of it being up there. Like that's great, but then do they actually translate into working with us or becoming customers? And I think when you niche it down, there's more of an opportunity that it might only be 100 that read it, but based on how impactful it is for them and how detailed you can get and the examples you can give them, you take them so high up that trust curve where maybe five of them then become a customer. And to me it's writing more about those, it's always that battle where it's like the exposure feels great. The links feel great. The mentions, social media mentions and tweets and posts feel great, but the end of the day if it doesn't move that bottom of the funnel and add to more customers, then is it really as impactful as you feel it is? 34:42 DS: Yeah, that actually really lends to one marketing thing that I have planned for this fall, that I think is gonna be my new go-to. I'm speaking at three different auto-dealer conferences this fall, so I've got one in September, and two in October. And so, there's a huge benefit there. One of them is, if I go in a SEO conference, this is where I do most of my speaking. A lot of those people I'm speaking to are my competitors. Some of them are gonna use our software, 'cause we have agency-based software, but on some of the service side of things they look at me as a competitor not really a potential vendor, but when I go to an auto-dealer conference, then everyone in the audience is potentially my customer and so that's a great credibility there. The beautiful thing is, I can generate one slide deck, and use that for multiple industry-specific conferences. There isn't that high bar where you have to bring this mind blowing new research every time you go and speak.35:46 DS: Then I'm gonna take that same concept and spin it too like, "Okay, well I've got this really successful talk that I've given to auto-dealers, I wanna take the exact same thing and now rework it, my screenshots and everything for dentists or lawyers, and so I can go and do all these industry-specific conferences. So I'm thinking I'm going to say no to some of the big conferences, like some of the SEO specific ones, and a lot more yeses and even pitching for industry-specific ones, and that's also where I think these sort of industry-specific landing pages could come in. If I had these landing pages, that could be super valuable.36:23 AW: Yeah. Also I think you're on to something very smart there and I will be interested to hear how that goes but I think it will yield you very good results. It's a human format of what we're talking about. I'm being focused to that persona in content marketing. You're doing it through conferences and speaking. So totally awesome.36:46 DS: Yeah, I'm excited and I'll let you know how it goes. We'll have another podcast episode and chat about it.36:49 AW: Nice. One thing I think we both do really well, that I think a lot of people overlook from time to time is, surfacing research and data. So you have the local search ranking factors, that's a really big piece. We've done all kinds of different either using Google surveys and asking specific questions and finding out how people view online reviews and do they trust them and how often do they write them and things like that. When you spend the time and the money to create those to me, those just have endless payback. When others are writing articles about it, they cite your stats and your data so often so, you get mentions. We just had another mention in a Moz article last week and the research was maybe from at least a year or two years ago, but it continues to produce links, produce mentions in real time for something that has been out there quite a while, just because you can become the de facto research for it.37:48 DS: Stats and data, it's huge. It's a really great, it's like the snowball effect right. Now that Whitespark is built up. We can release something and it has this great effect where a huge spread happens from it. I think it might be hard if you're just starting out, but maybe not. Did you see the Fresh Chalk thing that came out? So that Adam guy did that thing, where he analyzed, I think it was...38:14 AW: 150,000 I think.38:16 DS: Small businesses. Yeah, he looked at their websites, and he compared their websites' metrics with their rankings, and then he did this great research around it. And that is like a case study of how you could do something, research-based, and absolutely blow it out of the water in terms of getting some... I had never heard of Fresh Chalk before. I didn't... I knew nothing about it. And so now he's on the map. And it's a... That actually is an opportunity for any SaaS that's... Even if they're brand new, if they do something, and they put in the work, then it... I think it could... It's gonna reap the rewards for Fresh Chalk forever. It's huge. That was a massive marketing move with that resource.39:00 AW: Yeah. No, I actually met up, when I was in Seattle, with Liz Pearce, who is one of the co-founders, and the CEO of Fresh Chalk. So it does help put those things on the map. That was part of me ending up connecting with her. So, yeah, I mean, don't ever look past what you're creating, and when you're the one that compiles it together, and you make it easy for someone else to absorb it, read it, and then use it the way that they need to, you're gonna get benefits out of it. Mentions, links, referrals, top-of-mind, brand awareness, right? 39:32 DS: Yep.39:32 AW: All of those.39:33 DS: Shares from big industry people. Yeah, we've gotten tons of shares. Like everyone was sharing that content around.39:39 AW: Yeah. One other thing that I've always liked, that you did, that you pulled together, and maybe you can tell me if you feel it actually has an impact, but you guys at Whitespark created a topical email called The Local Pulse, and every day you send out an aggregation of articles from many of the different resources in local SEO, and everything else, and there can be anywhere from three to 10 articles linked in there, on a daily basis. And it's a great way to bring that into my inbox. If you check it, I have a pretty good open rate. But it makes me aware of those articles, and then Whitespark is the one that's done the hard work in bringing this together.40:18 DS: Sure.40:19 AW: Have you seen benefits of this over time, in line with what you hoped for, or how do you view that strategically, in tech? 40:26 DS: Yeah, email market is a whole huge marketing thing that we didn't really get into yet, but yeah, so the Local Pulse is this funny thing, it's like I had this idea, and I wanted it just for me. Well, that any time these 12 blogs that I care about in local search post something, I wanna get notified about it, right? And so I figured out that I could build this thing with MailChimp that automatically aggregates the RSS feeds of all of the blogs, and then produces this email. And actually, for a first little while I just had it going to me, and I was like, "Oh, should I let other people subscribe to this?" And so I opened it up, and I let other people subscribe to it. We have about 1500 people on that email list. And so the outcome is... I have no idea, because, honestly, it's this thing... [chuckle] It's funny, because I saw you put that in our notes for today's call, and I immediately sent a message to Jessie, being like, "Hey, can you add a banner to this email?" [chuckle] 'cause we have never used it to be promotional in any way.41:32 DS: But there's a perfect little spot for it, where we could just use that to highlight the latest things that we're doing. I think it's mostly agencies that would be on that list. And so we're gonna now use it to show, put a little banner for our white label agency program for our new GMB management service. Why have we not done that before? So, maybe I'll have some numbers for you later, see if that converts at all. But it's a pretty good resource. We've never really used it to be promotional, we've just provided it as a friendly service, but I think it's the kind of thing that could potentially drive some extra business. And so we're gonna drop a little banner in there, and see if it drives any conversions.42:14 AW: Nice. And I think that's always a great way to start a relationship, because you've created something that is just giving to them.42:20 DS: Yeah.42:20 AW: I think it just paints you in the right light, so that, well, down the road, when you do get at least some type of a promotional, or a sales call-to-action in it, it won't even rub them the wrong way, because they're already appreciative of... You've simplified something, and you efficiently give them value. So that won't do anything, rather than... Right? If the only thing you were doing is emailing them everyday trying to ask them to buy from you, that obviously has a much different outcome.42:46 DS: Yeah, totally. And I think, actually, we might get some decent conversions through this. And we certainly wouldn't be salesy about it, we'd just be like, "Hey, we also have this service. Here are your latest Local Search posts... And oh, by the way, Whitespark has this service." And that's all there is to it.43:01 AW: Yeah. Totally. Another aspect, you and I both do a lot of... Or we try to maximize this at our companies, is being a featured guest on a podcast, or a webinar. Talk to me about your approach with some of those, and the advantages you feel that are with that, and how you... Are you doing anything to try to get more of them, or even though you've had other members of your team recently being part of them, that I think that's fabulous.43:30 DS: Yeah, I think they're really great opportunities when they come up. I don't seek them out. I guess, well, I'm fortunate to be in a position where they come to me, and they ask me to be a guest on these things, but they are in-the-bag wonderful opportunities to get in front of a new audience, because usually they're really easy. They're just... It's just a Q&A type of thing, right? They're asking you questions, you answer the questions, and as long as you don't look like a total idiot, then sometimes that can expose your company to new people that didn't know about you before. And if you come across as knowledgeable, then that might encourage them to come and look you up, and see... "Oh, well, what does this guy do?" "Oh, well, he's got this company Whitespark. What does Whitespark do?" And then that can lead to business, I suppose. But, yeah, the webinars are fantastic, when they come up, same with podcasts, being invited to be guests on these things, that really... It really does stem from being a speaker. So being a public speaker at a lot of these events is what will drive these invites, basically, that's always been the way for me. Is anyone on webinars that doesn't speak at events? It's pretty rare, I think.44:39 AW: Yeah, and then I think that comes from then the host, or the person putting together knows, "Alright, I'm gonna get great content. This person has stage/mic presence. They're known. So others will come to the podcast because one of the two or three or four guests on like a webinar roundtable, they'll all bring their own spheres of people that come to it". So, yeah, so it's like mutually beneficial, right, to both the host and the guest.45:10 DS: Yeah, and actually, that's interesting. And you think about your personal influence, and so building up your following on Twitter, on Instagram, or whatever it is... In the SEO space, it's mostly Twitter, probably the same in most SaaS spaces, but it's certainly beneficial to build that up and to... Like I don't do it consciously. I'm not out there, "Ooh, I'd better tweet so I get more followers." I'm just... I'm trying to share stuff that I think is interesting and valuable, and just because I think it's interesting and valuable. Like I'm not doing it as this thing, but certainly it creates some benefit. So when someone is looking for someone to join their webinar, it probably helps that I have 16,000 followers on Twitter because they know that I'll probably tweet about it and then those people will... It might drive more people to the webinar. So it's certainly valuable to build up your personal following.46:05 AW: Totally. And a last main topic regarding marketing that we have time for is kind of where we kicked off this conversation but... Around conferences, right? Both you and I have cut our teeth over the years and risen through the ranks to some extent, right? Like I've written articles in the past on public speaking, and one of my main pieces of advice for people is like just start. My first one was literally a room of 20 people at a local chamber of commerce, and... But it allowed me to start talking in public. It allowed me to see what do people care about, what questions did they ask afterwards. I recorded it. What could I break down that I could do better or be more engaged in or tell the story better. Yeah, so it's like that was, I don't know, 15 years ago now. So it's like what have you seen right through your own journey on that and what's the reason why you continue to do it even though you're evolving maybe who your audiences are? 47:08 DS: Yeah, do you remember what my first sort of big talk was, Aaron? 47:12 AW: I think you mentioned that it was when you helped bring Local U to Edmonton.47:16 DS: Yeah, but there's an even greater story behind that because Ed Reese forgot his passport and he couldn't come, and so I ended up... Like the very first talk I gave at that Edmonton Local U was your presentation. It was your like, "How does Google search work?" And all I had was the damn slides until I was trying to give this presentation. It's basically my first talk ever in front of an audience and I'm like, "And here's a picture of a spider. I don't know what Aaron was planning to say here, but maybe something about web crawlers and this is how web crawlers work." And so I basically just stumbled through it and it was a pretty scary first experience of getting up to speak when they weren't even your own slides. It was like this last minute thing. I was like, "Okay, I'll do it," and...48:08 AW: Yes. No, that would be horrible. I remember... So SMX Advanced was right after that and I was speaking at SMX Advanced, and I had on my SpyderTrap jacket out in Seattle and somebody's like, "Oh, hey. Aren't you the guy who just didn't have a passport and you couldn't speak in Edmonton," and I was like, "What?" And then I found out the whole thing and I was like, "No, man, that was Ed Reese," and then Darren used my presentation. I wasn't even supposed to be a part of it, like I somehow got wrangled in as the bad guy who couldn't enter the country legally even though I was never on the agenda. So oh, that's rough. That's a tough first speaking I did.48:47 DS: It was pretty tough, but you know maybe it was a good idea to just start out really hard, and then the rest of them became much easier after that.48:53 AW: There you go. Only up from there.48:56 DS: Exactly. So I did have my own talk and that was wonderful, and I honestly, in the local search space, Local U is a great opportunity because if you bring a Local U event to your city and you do all the legwork to get all of the people, you know to help bring in attendees and sell tickets, then you generally get a speaking spot. And so it's a pretty great place to start. I would say I got my start actually just teaching little courses back when I was in the university. I got the opportunity to teach courses on Adobe Dreamweaver, like how to make websites.49:34 DS: It was Fireworks as well. It was like this little graphic design thing and I did a Photoshop class. And so that was really helpful to speak to a really small audience. It would be like 10-15 people in a workshop and I would teach them how to use the software, and so that's kind of where I got my start with being in front of a small audience. But there's also like little meetups where you could go and meet up with other web developers or SCOs in your city, and you could give a little presentation to 10 people. That's an awesome way to get started with that. And then of course, then you pitch. So once you kind of get the opportunity to speak a bit more, then you'll pitch at smaller conferences and work your way up to bigger conferences. It's... I, honestly, I cannot imagine where Whitespark would be today if I didn't get the opportunity and put some effort into becoming a speaker that... It's been huge for us in terms of marketing, just massive.50:26 AW: Yep. Yep. No, I agree. And even personally, it's created so many new friends, networking opportunities, partnerships on down the line if you are, and I get everyone is different, introvert, extrovert, what their comfort levels are.50:43 DS: Sure, for sure.50:43 AW: Public speaking can be a massive fear for a lot of people.50:47 DS: Yep.50:48 AW: But if you can, it just does pay a lot of great dividends. And one thing too that I would share with everyone is if you get the opportunity to do it, think how can you build in a call to action or a next step for people, right, and not a like, "Hey, buy our software," but, "Hey, I presented the high level of this research, like the full research is now in a blog post on our site. Here's where you can... "51:12 DS: Totally. Yeah.51:13 AW: And I think... I feel like you do a good job of that or finding something that continues the conversation that... Or even if you're speaking at an event, and then... That's where we're more evolving to, is we wanna speak and we wanna find out, can we have a booth there, or let's bring a salesperson there anyway so that they can be the... Have an opportunity to close or find out who's interested in it, because sometimes just the talk alone, yes, it'll generate exposure and buzz and get you out there, but if you don't have some type of mechanism to push it down the sales funnel or to get more out of it, you're definitely wasting the momentum that you're building with it.51:52 DS: Yeah, that's actually a big part of my marketing plan for these auto dealer conferences, right? So I'm presenting this research where I'm gathering all of this data on auto dealers across Canada. These are all Canadian-based conferences. And so then I'm gonna present like, these are the statistics for auto dealers in Canada on using these different features, and this is why you wanna be using, this is how you wanna be using them, and... So I was only able to talk about this for 20, 30 minutes, and then we're gonna have a great resource on our website that I'll send people to at the end of it. So it's exactly what you just said, that's my plan for these auto dealer conferences.52:26 AW: Yep. Now, no different than the pages on your website, you gotta have some type of a call to action or next step very visible. Make sure you have it in your talks, right. Not a salesy frontal "buy now or I don't like you," but something that progresses them the next step into your reunion.52:46 DS: Absolutely.52:47 AW: So we've talked a lot here, and that's what happens when we have so much downtime in between...52:54 DS: It's been like, yeah, six weeks? 52:54 AW: Yeah, and closing with one question, what's a marketing strategy or tactic that you haven't gotten to yet that you really feel like, oh, this is something I need to accomplish before 2019 is over? 53:09 DS: The big one for me is, last year I did this series, I called it the Whitespark Weekly, where I would make a little video of me talking about one small aspect of local search. And they were meant to be under 10 minutes, it was just me with a webcam doing a screen share showing a thing. And those were huge for us. Honestly, I saw very significant uptick in our business at that time, and there was a lot of sharing of our content and it was on such a weekly basis. Those were really massive for us and it's a marketing thing I can't wait to get back to. But my to-do list is so damn big, and every week goes by I'm like, "Dang it, I really wanna get another one of those videos done," but it's really hard for me to find the time, so I'm trying to figure out how I can block off some time and get back to doing those regular videos. Because the thing about that is like, I can get on a stage and speak to 200, 300, 400 people, but these videos, they can reach a much larger audience. And so doing that stuff on a regular basis can really build our exposure, and so I wanna get back into doing those videos. That's the biggest thing for me. It's the biggest marketing thing on my mind, especially as we start launching our platform and all of that stuff. It's gonna be great for us.54:30 AW: Sounds like you gotta leverage some prioritization there, Shaw.54:33 DS: I really do. I'm working on new calendaring systems and trying to figure out how to block off my time, yeah. How about you, what's your big thing that you wanna make sure that you're taking care of on the marketing space before the end of 2019? 54:47 AW: Yeah, I'm almost embarrassed about this, but retargeting. In today's day and age, you need to be doing it, and it's just something... We've had small discussions and talked about it, but have not launched it, and it's ridiculous in the landscape of what's going on out there not to lay that trail as people move on past you to put reminders in front of them to come back and check you out and to re-affirm the value prop and all those other things. So yeah, by far and away...[overlapping conversation]55:19 AW: Yeah, we need to get retargeting going before the end of the year. That is an absolute low-hanging fruit in today's marketing mix that sadly is just rotten fruit on the ground for us right now.55:31 DS: Oh, that's a great analogy. Yeah, totally. Same here, there's rotten apples all over Whitespark from not doing retargeting. So can I pick two? I wanna add that one to my list too.55:42 AW: Yeah, go ahead.55:43 DS: Retargeting, gotta do it.55:44 AW: Yep, go ahead. You can have two, and let's hold each other accountable and let's get it done before the year ends.55:49 DS: End of 2019, okay, good deal. You are gonna see my Whitespark Weekly videos start up before the end of 2019. I'm gonna commit to that.55:57 AW: Alright, make it happen.55:57 DS: Yep.55:58 AW: Alright, well, I think that's a wrap as we push an hour of time here for this episode. Thanks everyone for listening. I also wanna send a shout-out... Bunch of people at MozCon came up... I also received texts lately from people asking questions, so thanks to people like Noah Lerner... Will Scott said he binged all 10 of our episodes and they had some questions for me...56:22 DS: Thanks, Will.56:22 AW: On sales team and sales comp, yeah. So thanks, you guys, for reaching out. Continue to do so, you can tweet us any questions or topics you'd like covered. Hopefully none of you got worried that we were abandoning this after 10 episodes with the recent month of darkness. We'll get back on track and keep coming at you.56:44 DS: Yep, looking forward to it.56:45 AW: Alright, well, thanks everyone, and have a fabulous rest of your weeks until we talk to you again.56:58 DS: See ya.[outro music]

Helpful links from the episode: Zendesk Helpscout Olark Zapier GatherUp app on Zapier GatherUp User Guide MozCon FULL SHOW NOTES[intro music]00:10 Aaron Weiche: Episode 10: Building Customer Success and Support for your SaaS.00:16 INTRO: Welcome to The Saas Venture podcast, sharing the adventure of leading and growing a bootstrap SaaS company. Hear the experiences, challenges, wins, and losses shared in each episode, from Aaron Weiche of Gather Up and Darren Shaw of Whitespark. Let's go.[music]00:44 Aaron: Welcome to The SaaS Venture podcast; I'm Aaron.00:47 Darren Shaw: And I'm Darren.00:49 Aaron: And we have hit double digits, my friend.00:52 Darren: This is it. We've finally made it, big time.00:55 Aaron: Let's just shut it down.[chuckle]00:58 Darren: 10 episodes; this is our final episode.01:01 Aaron: But somebody that's just listening thought we maybe meant 10 years, but no, we just mean 10 episodes, but that feels good for five months into doing this.01:12 Darren: Yeah, we're gaining some traction. I think we're building a following, and I'm having a great time; it's been good.01:18 Aaron: Absolutely; I agree. So, hey, what's been going on with you since we last talked on the last episode? 01:26 Darren: What's been going on? Let's see... Well, I have a fun story to tell. Just the other day I was waiting for Violet and Jill to arrive at the gym, at the gym that I work out, and so that's also where Violet does her jiu jitsu class. So I'm on the treadmill and I'm running, just waiting for them to show up. And I never ride the treadmill, it's just that it was right by the door so I could watch. So I pressed the Stop button on the treadmill when they pull up and I go to get off. But because I don't ride the treadmill I didn't realize that it has, like, a slow down process. [chuckle] So I turn around to get off the treadmill, I realize it's still going as fast as it was when I was basically running full steam, and I was, like, full... Like arms, legs in the air, and landed hard on my back. [chuckle] And there were like three people come running over to see if I'm okay; I'm totally fine. I go to the car, and Jill is, like, in tears; she can't even speak because she saw the whole thing happening.[laughter]02:27 Aaron: Oh, perfect.02:28 Darren: And she's laughing non-stop. Thankfully I didn't really hurt myself, I just kinda got like a rug burn-type injury on my elbow, but I wish I could get the security camera video for it 'cause I would love to see it.02:44 Aaron: It would likely be a YouTube sensation, or make it into one of those compilations that you see on Facebook of exercise fails.02:52 Darren: I think it was worthy of that, for sure, yeah.02:55 Aaron: Well, I'm glad that your elbow is the only injury because, man, I've seen people... It looks like they... You can get knocked out if you fall on your head.03:05 Darren: I think so, yeah. So I was fine, just my biggest injury was my pride. I felt like a bit of an idiot at the gym there. But yeah. [chuckle]03:13 Aaron: Now, have you ever seen people who will walk on the treadmill, and it's set up where they can work... They're on a laptop while they're walking? 03:20 Darren: Yes, I have seen that before, and in fact, one of my employees, a developer that used to work with us, he had a setup like that in his office. And he would walk something like 15,000 steps a day. [chuckle] He was just, like, walk all day long while he was on his laptop.03:34 Aaron: Oh my gosh, I don't think I could pull that off. I would probably make it five or ten minutes; my focus would go elsewhere, and I would be like you. And then even at a walking speed I would end up down on the ground somehow.03:46 Darren: Yeah. You gotta really train and get used to that whole thing about working while walking. It would just be awkward, really, trying to type, I think.03:54 Aaron: Yep.03:54 Darren: Yeah.03:55 Aaron: Well, we gotta keep you upright, so let's leave the treadmill alone for a while.04:00 Darren: So we launched our new service, that Google My Business service that we were talking about last episode, and so I'm pumped about that. We were a little bit... We sent the email out to our mailing list on July 3rd, where I think most people were like, "Yeah, I'm gonna be gone", 'cause most of our customer base is in the US, and so maybe it wasn't the best time for a promotional email, so we're going to circle back on that in a couple of weeks. And we're trying to just do more promotion and build up the service; I'm excited about that. I'm also very excited about how our new account system is coming together, so with the Stripe integration and rebuilding all of our order forms, and just that whole user flow of signing up for our software or our services. So all that's being rebuilt in Stripe; that's awesome. And then of course, getting ready for MozCon which is next week. Can't wait to see you in person there. I should get my presentation finalized and all done here.04:56 Aaron: Yeah. By the time this episode airs we'll both be in Seattle and at MozCon; you speaking, GatherUp's there as a sponsor, but we'll get some time to hang out in person, and we're gonna try to record episode 11, in-person as well while we're in Seattle.05:16 Darren: Yeah, I can't wait; it's gonna be fun. We have to figure out where we're gonna do that recording.05:20 Aaron: It's gonna be a very top-secret location so that we don't, all of our fans aren't trying to break down the door to talk to us.[chuckle]05:27 Darren: Maybe we should at least have a window where the fans can watch.[chuckle]05:30 Aaron: Totally. Like some morning news show where they're just, like, screaming and holding signs.[chuckle]05:38 Darren: Yeah, totally.05:38 Aaron: We could pay somebody to do that; that would be the only way that would happen.05:42 Darren: I think, yeah, we would have to pay, definitely. How about you? What's up with you? 05:46 Aaron: On my side, I'm catching up after enjoying an awesome Fourth of July week where I was out of the office the entire week, just probably spent an hour to two hours each day on email and keeping some things moving, but it was a lot of time off, a lot of time with the kids. Time on the lake, which was awesome. But it always makes... The week you get back and all the things you kind of put off or said, "Schedule the call next week", now I'm basically living with the headset on the last few days, but all good.06:21 Darren: I was gonna say, it's like you get punished for taking that time off.06:24 Aaron: It is. It's double the work before you leave, and double the work when you get back, and that's right. You gotta make it count when you're gonna be out. It's like if you're gonna take all that punishment, then make sure you enjoy it.06:34 Darren: Totally.06:36 Aaron: Amazingly, we've talked a lot about my need and the work; we've had a specific episode on sales, but we have hired two outbound sales positions that start for us in the next couple of weeks.06:50 Darren: Amazing.06:50 Aaron: Yes.06:50 Darren: Yeah, I'm very curious to hear how this goes. Outbound sales, it's a whole new world.06:55 Aaron: Yes. So I'm incredibly excited; we got two great people. Both from referrals of one internal team referral and one from outside and few different things had to happen to get everything to align, but they're starting at the same time. So, a lot of my week... This week when I have spare moments is on materials and trying to get as much together for them to hit the ground running. So, plenty of work to do along those lines. And then related to the product, a really big piece that we've been working on for months that this is probably the first time we've had a feature big enough where we've built an Alpha of it first, usually it's a Dev Server in a Beta and pretty workable solution once we get going, but we've created an insights report that we have tied in with IBM's Watson to do natural language processing.07:53 Darren: Yep, that's nice.07:53 Aaron: So, you'll be able to... Yeah, understand sentiment of reviews... 'cause you might have a four-star review, where the customer talks about three really great things about the business, but then maybe has two things that weren't as good, and we wanna start to separate those kind of things out for you, instead of just attaching all of that content to a four-star review. We want you to understand what are the impact of, what are things that go on in a five-star experience compared to a two-star experience, so you can try to close that gap as a business and understand what those differentiators are. And then trends, what's happening on a week or a month or a quarterly basis that's increasing or decreasing, good or bad within how customers are talking about your business. So really big feature, a lot of work behind the scenes. We will be showing it off at MozCon and... Yeah, excited about that. And we're kind of targeting for the end of the month to get into an Open Beta with people.08:51 Darren: Great. Well, I'd like to get in on that Open Beta, check it out.08:55 Aaron: Yeah. No, I'll have a lot of fun giving you a demo with it. So, that will be fine.09:01 Darren: Yeah, I know it's Watson, is that a paid API you have to tap into? 09:06 Aaron: Yep, yep. Paid API, so we just have to tie into it, which that part obviously is already done. And now, you just get into the training part. We evaluated probably four or five different natural language processing APIs and theirs, I guess, kinda out of the box so to start with. We had two things going for: One, one of our engineers was already familiar with it, had used it in another capacity. And two, when we did some sample test results between these four or five solutions, we felt like it had just the most accuracy out of the box in the way that we were looking for. And no matter what... I mean, it's all about training, right? So you have to train the machine and everything else. But we felt like it was just a better starting point with it.09:56 Darren: Really cool. Yeah, awesome.09:58 Aaron: Yeah. And with that, new features are all about trying to make things better for your customers, the topic that you brought up I think is a fantastic one to address even deeper as taking a look at customer support, customer success teams, what do you need to do to build the right criteria, pieces, elements, processes, team, everything else to support your customers and to lead your customers to success.10:31 Darren: So I brought this topic up because I think we do a pretty decent job of it at Whitespark. If you look at our reviews, a lot of people talk about the excellent support that they get at Whitespark. We have good processes in place, we have a good ticketing software and live chat software that we get through Zendesk. But I wanted to bring this topic up 'cause this is gonna be an episode where it's like Aaron teaches me all of the awesome things. [chuckle] 'Cause I think that you've thought really deeply about this at GatherUp and you've really taken things to a next level and so, I wanna learn from you and I'm gonna be the question asker I think, and you can help me see some of the great ways that you guys have really taken your support to the next level.11:15 Aaron: Oh, I'm on the hot seat.11:16 Darren: Yeah, a little bit. Not really. I think that this will flow more naturally than a straight Q&A. But honestly, I really feel like you've got a lot to share here and that's why I want to bring it up.11:27 Aaron: Yeah, and truth be told, it's an area where we... It was probably almost two years ago now, where we realized we wanted to put a lot of focus into it. To your point with Whitespark and how you guys handle it and customers talk about that, I really think as a bootstrapped SaaS company, like "You have to win there," right? 11:49 Darren: Yeah, for sure.11:49 Aaron: You're not gonna win feature battles, you're not gonna have the 100 person sales teams, all these things that larger VC companies that can scale faster can have. You have to win with service and support as a bootstrapped SaaS company. We looked at and realize we need that to be a differentiator because some of these other things. We can build smarter features/cooler features, but they're gonna be able to build 50 to every five that we build.12:19 Darren: Yeah, exactly.12:21 Aaron: So, in looking at that it's like, "Yeah, you need that as a differentiator." And we realized that a long time ago. And to me, the biggest arc in this that yeah I'd love to talk about what we've done in questions you have but just this arc, right? It was a couple of years ago and funny enough, we were actually in Seattle. I think we were... I can't remember if we were at one of the... When they used to have MozCon Local. I think maybe it was at that, but we stayed a day or two later and we actually used Moz's offices to have an exec team meeting and we white-boarded out this timeline of what the arc looked like between customer support, which is completely reactive and customer success, which is completely proactive.13:08 Darren: Right.13:08 Aaron: And we tried to mark along those lines, like what are steps that we can take to continue to add more proactive and prescriptive things to what we provided and to make our team... We realized we needed more focus on customer success, as well as support but we really needed to make that entire piece the focus of GatherUp.13:31 Darren: Yeah, that's the interesting thing and I think this is where WhiteSpark can certainly improve and that's that proactive approach. Moving from Customer Support, which is when people are asking new questions to customer success, which is you're proactively reaching out to them and onboarding them, helping them out with things, noticing when they're not active in the tool. All those kinds of things that's where I'm really excited about, the potential for support and customer success. And I wanna hear more about what are some of the things you guys are doing like what... Do you actually divide them up into two teams at GatherUp? Do you have people that answer incoming questions and people that are trying to be proactive and reaching out to customers.14:17 Aaron: Yeah, so from a labeling standpoint, all the same team but we have started to... We look at where people's talents are and things like that and we are more giving them roles or responsibilities of this person based on experience, knowledge, personality. They're a great support person. They're great to answer email tickets and do these pieces and whatever else, where someone else like, "Okay, their level of understanding is really deep. They have a lot of confidence to recommend how to use features and they can be a little bit more leading with the customer. Like they're better fit for a customer success role. So we kinda call everybody the same, but we have started to differentiate what their main duties, what the majority of their time is spent on within that process.15:09 Darren: Yeah. And then I'm also curious. So tell me this, what percentage of your customers get a proactive outreach? Do you have to have a certain number of locations in order to sort of fall into this bucket where we're gonna proactively reach out or do you do that with everybody? 15:26 Aaron: Yeah, based on our pricing model, for us it is multi-locations. So the biggest thing for a new client, if we sell a multi-location that's almost always gonna be one-to-one demo and then we're gonna try to do a SOW with them to get an agreement to try to get them on an annual contract and part of that is an onboarding process. And then making sure we get everything set up right. We walk them through, we make them aware of features and all those other steps. And then what we've recently... And I know I've mentioned a couple of other podcasts, we had our team and then we hired a VP of Customer Success and Taylor came on and looked at like "Alright, great. You have this great set up and onboarding process but it kinda stops right at launch". And what he added was a 5th phase to it that's like, "Alright. Now, let's make sure in the first 90 days that you're hitting success metrics and you're getting value either statistically or emotionally out of the product and then graduating and then setting up quarterly business reviews to like, are they still hitting the things that you need them to? Are you on track to do the right things? 16:37 Darren: Yeah, that's that whole next level. That's I think really valuable when you start to tap into your best customers and really making sure that they're getting the most value out of the software. And then that also is a really great relationship building with your best customers where they just feel like you actually care. You're taking the time to reach out to them and they just feel really great about working with GatherUp.17:00 Aaron: Yup. And you discover so much about them when you have those types of conversations and when you get knee-deep in their data as well. And it's given us a more formatted approach. All the time in the past, I'm constantly jumping in and out of accounts and looking for signals on are they doing well, are they doing great, are they struggling, is there a challenge that I can see that I can reach out to them with. And now we're just building more and more of a system around that. We've talked in past episodes and we're just getting into this where we're gonna bring data to the table to help tell us more of those things more in-app analytics. That's still the piece of the story we're missing there. But now for our more valuable accounts, we're doing those types of things.17:45 Aaron: And then the other challenges then on the small business like the one location side, how do you wrap in when you have support opportunities to still provide them a little bit of success with it and as well provide them with as many resources as possible to be successful so that there are things on demand when they need answers or easy ways to talk to the support team I think are really important when you can't give all of yourself to a $40 a month customer or a $75 a month customer but you can give a little and also put them on to "Hey, here's a ton of content or tutorials or other ways that you can get your answers and be successful.18:29 Darren: Yeah. I think that's where we do a pretty good job. We have an email funnel. So when someone signs up for an account they're gonna get their welcome email, their next steps and then there's a series of emails that they're gonna get that sort of tell them about features of a tool and guide them through using the software. And it's pretty self-served. And so if they're not reading those emails, then we don't know. And the one thing that we don't do is we don't segment based off of account size and I think that's an opportunity for us. So if we did segment and we put a little bit more time into those higher value accounts, that's really a good take away for me, personally. And this one is to get a process in place to identify those accounts and then how are we gonna reach out to them and how we're gonna support them a bit better.19:13 Aaron: Yup, yeah. I would say that segmentation is really important and then the outlining exactly what you're talking about. How you can get to 'em. That has definitely been a game changer for us and it makes our customer success team is now in charge of renewals when they signed a one-year or two-year deal when that comes up for renewal. As we say, we should know with 99% certainty that they're gonna renew because we've been talking to them every quarter about of things are going.19:39 Darren: Absolutely.19:40 Aaron: You're not crossing your fingers. Will they renew or not? It's like, no, no we know how they feel about the product and how things are going and that we're a core part of what we're doing or we know like, hey this account is in trouble. We need to make an impact and a change quickly or they're not gonna give us any more runway to make an impact.20:00 Darren: Right? And your account man... You think you have an account managers, they're customer success people, but they're also account managers, and they're responsible for what 20, 30 different accounts that they have to keep an eye on.20:12 Aaron: Yeah, and that's some of the stuff we were just trying to... It'll be really interesting for the rest of this year and we're definitely gonna have some talks but how do we start to understand what each customer success rep can handle within their mixture of things especially is now we have sales people that are hopefully bringing more accounts that need to be onboarded, but we wanna try to get some amount of framework in place, so we know, when this happens, if we're sending out this many SOWs, we know this is the likelihood they're gonna close and so we know the likelihood we're gonna need additional help at this point in time, so we can just be ahead of it instead of reactive, where the team is like, "Hey we're buried. Please send help". That's usually when it's too late.20:56 Darren: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this fine line between support and sales. Like at my company, we don't have a dedicated sales person, we have our support team, which is basically frontline sales for us. People come in, they have questions about the product, our support team answers those questions, will send them links to sign up for things, they'll make recommendations about what would make sense for them. So they kind of become the sales people in a lot of these cases. If it's a large looking account, they send it to me, or to Nick. And we handle more of the SOW type account set up. In your case, like how do you do that? Does your front... Does your support offer sort of sales stuff for signing up ike the one-offs, is that how it works at GatherUp? 21:48 Aaron: Yeah, so our customer success team will do a couple of our single-location demos within a week. And there really isn't a hand-off at all for them. 'cause it's more of a give demo, answer questions, if there's any straggler questions, answer those, then it's self served to go sign up and then they'll reach back out if they have questions. We have the process things to what you alluded to drip emails, a quick start guide, we have a very in-depth user guide, we have a number of ways to help them start with this minimal human touch as possible and then the support team is there to answer questions as they need it. For anything larger, our hand-off is basically when that agreement is signed, so when the SOW is signed, then I will go to Taylor and say, "Alright, here's what the deal is, here's what it looks like." and a lot of times we're even having conversations before that, but then we're like, Alright, here's the person, our team is gonna handle it, we have a little, small internal information hand-off and then I'm reaching out and saying, "Hey great news. Here's your customer success rep, is gonna be Josh. He's gonna schedule your first meeting, and layout what onboarding looks like for you. And now, I'm here just to ride along if you have any overall questions or whatever, but you're in great hands and move forward. So we use that intro email and scheduling that kick-off meeting as the handoff from sales to customer success.23:15 Darren: Yeah, that makes sense. And what's your you cut off? So let's say, how many people will self-serve that happen to have 20 plus locations, do they just come through the website and, "Oh wow, they just signed up."23:27 Aaron: Yeah, yeah very few. [chuckle] And we really find some of the things that we've done to help identify that. We have our multi-location pricing is behind a gateway. So you have to put in who you are and how many locations when you're looking at something. So we use that to reach out and be like, "Hey great. You looked at our pricing you saw it's completely competitive and very valuable. Would you like a one-on-one demo?" So we use that to get them into the sales process at that time and the majority come in that way and we really sell... I would say the biggest differentiator we do customer success with anyone that's paying a set-up fee.24:07 Aaron: If someone says I just wanna handle it myself and do whatever else then we might back off it a little bit, but we find most people like, "Hey I'd rather pay the fee and I get a tour guide, I get all this one-on-one support, I get a process that really is gonna help me get the value out of this." and then we know that customer is pretty serious too so that format has worked really well for us. We will get on occasion, a 5-10-15 location that comes in and they do sign up themselves and put stuff into it themselves and if we run across it, we'll likely ping them. And just, what are things looking like? Is there anything we can be of help with? Would you like to jump on a call to know more? So we will try to intercede with that, but we really find the majority of them end up coming through our sales process.24:52 Darren: Yeah, that makes sense, especially since you have it behind a form. So if you've got multiple locations, you wanna see that pricing they're already in that funnel where the next step is to set up a demo and then it leads to SOW and a set-up contract and all that, stuff.25:06 Aaron: Yeah, and we had a lot of internal debate when we moved to that when we rebranded we went to that method for our reseller pricing and our multi-location pricing, and I ultimately settled like, "Okay we're showing our one location pricing, this is as expensive as it gets per location. And see the other... Who are you, your email, your business and the number of locations, the minute you submit that you see the pricing right then and there you can bookmark that URL and review it as many times as you want. And our sales process isn't... We reach out with one or two emails max just to make sure that they understand everything correctly. Do they have questions on pricing, would they like to see a demo? So we're just trying to be helpful, we're not gonna over inundate them. There's a few on our team that were a little apprehensive and it's worked incredibly well for us and...25:56 Darren: Oh, that sounds great.25:58 Aaron: Yeah, haven't had any push back on why can't I see all of your pricing, and to some extent a lot of our competitors don't even show one location pricing, you have no idea the cost at all until you talk to somebody. So...26:10 Darren: I hate that, whenever I go to a website, it doesn't have pricing and I'm like, Well, no, obviously it's too expensive, so I'm not gonna sign up. There's only one reason why you wouldn't show me your pricing. It's because it's like $20,000, I don't want it, so that's how I think about it every time. [chuckle]26:26 Aaron: Yeah, totally.26:27 Darren: I think your approach is really smart actually. And maybe, I don't know how prevalent that is, but showing the single-location pricing and then for multi-location pricing, fill out this little form. Now you've got the great lead-capture and you have delivered the pricing to them up front. They still feel good. All they have to do is just enter their name and email, they're gonna get that pricing immediately, and then you have your customer success team outreach to them. Now, those will be sales leads, right? For your new sales team.27:00 Aaron: Yep. Which is perfect to give them a handful of those coming in even though my new sales people, their main focus is... They're outbound, they're gonna be generating their own love in the world.27:12 Darren: I got so many questions, but we'll save that for the next episode on sales. Let's keep talking about support. I wanted to ask you about support contracts. This has come up. We have a number of multi-location clients that are unbelievably time-consuming on support. Like seriously, five hours a week, we spend answering their questions, going back and forth, re-answering the same question six times. It's just like some of these clients, we love them, they're great, they are awesome people, but they really need a lot of hand-holding. And I'm wondering... Right now, we do not have support contracts. How do you deal with this, with these really needy customers that need a lot of time and hand holding? What do you do at GatherUp? 28:00 Aaron: So we're just starting to address this as well, our last exec Summit, a month-and-a-half ago, this was one of our topics. And coming from the world of agencies, you had some of these same things as well. And you try to build those into retainers and kinda have it factored out that way, but I think support contracts are really important and I think most of it has to do with how you position it right up front in the process. And the best way to look at it is you outline... You're able to outline for... In our case, the initial conversations we had was something around like three tiers of support. And I guess I should maybe go one backwards. You're probably in the same position as... You offer amazing support and as your company gets bigger, that amazing support becomes harder and harder to be equal all the way across the board. 'Cause where you were doing it for dozens or hundreds, now maybe it's thousands of customers.29:02 Aaron: And to get the same responses within hours and outcomes and all those different kinda things becomes increasingly hard. And I feel the best way to handle it is to kinda say, "Alright you have three different options in working with us," like "Here's the software fee, but then we also have support that you can decide to purchase or not purchase. And if you don't purchase it here is kind of our standard rule of thumb: You'll get a response within 24 business hours or 16 business hours." But something that gives you leeway for them to understand. "Hey, I'm not gonna get something in an hour and I have to live with that, I want it included I want it has a for free, and I'm willing to live." And the right expectations have been set.29:52 Darren: Yeah, that's the key. That's sort of differentiating is 'cause this is the thought that someone may have is be like, "Well, can't I just get support? Why are you offering support to all these other people? Why do I have to pay for support?" And so I think those different tiers is where you can actually make a case for a support contract. That makes a lotta sense.30:10 Aaron: Yeah. Because you end up showing them like, "Hey if you really value this and you want fast turn time and you want guarantees and things like that, well then you can have it, you have to pay for it." It's like anything, if you want a better version that is bigger, better faster, whatever that might be, there's value attached to it, and so you're willing to pay for it. And then when the expectation is off, then you're at least able to say like, "This was communicated, you declined that. You said, 'I'm willing to live with two days or three days to reply for no additional money.'" So we'll see. This is in theory. And we used to do... I've done similar things like this in agency before around development contracts and e-commerce, and website builds. And they worked really, really well in those scenarios. It's just getting all of it to be done up front. The most important part is selling it upfront instead of having them get in and then when they have a problem, and then saying, like, "Oh, well, you can pay to get help faster." And then they're like, "I would've paid from the get-go, now I'm mad because it didn't meet my expectations. You didn't set proper expectations." That's when you get into trouble if you don't have that available, and they didn't make that choice, then you're just making where, "Oh, it is an option. You never asked, so we didn't tell you."31:34 Darren: Yeah. So absolutely getting it in advance is the best way to do it. So I have a client or two now that is quite needy, that I would love to get on a support contract, but it is a very awkward conversation at this point. And then the other potential concern I have is, you have this client who they send you, once a week, a 15-point list of really long complicated obscure edge casey questions. It's like the most obscure stuff you could ever imagine. And even if they're on whatever a free support plan is they're like "Yeah, I don't need a response in 36 hours, I can wait till next week." But man, they just sent us seven hours of work, so much time to go through, look at what their weird edge case concern is, playing around with the software, going back and forth with the dev team. It's just, it's frustrating when you have these specific clients.32:37 Aaron: I would say since you have that historical data, I would use that to your advantage and say, "We've looked at this, we want to serve you at the right level to make you successful and based on our interactions in the last three months, six months, year, this is the amount of interaction, this is the amount of emails and tickets and request... You would be smart to pre-purchase five hours of support a month for us at this rate, otherwise we will have to look at going to a time and materials with this just because of the amount that it is and it's all to ensure you're successful. So it isn't easy but you have to realize what it takes. Ann a good customer and a good relationship, they'll realize that anyway and if they don't, then that's starting to send you some other signals like they have no problem taking you down with them. [chuckle]33:32 Darren: Yeah, I think that they're probably in the back of their minds are like "Boy, how long are we able and get this free support for Whitespark?". Because they know they're sending us so much extra work to do it. They must know that they're just waiting for the email to come where we suggest we're gonna have to start implementing hourly fees for all of this stuff.33:53 Aaron: Yeah. There's always a way to address it when you have history. I think you use that history to your advantage. These are knowns.34:00 S2: Yup.34:01 Aaron: We're not guessing how much you might need, these are complete knowns and here's how we can continue to help you at this level, Now that we understand the level of help your requesting all the time.34:11 Darren: I like it. Thank you. I will take that approach. How do you measure your... At Whitespark we use Zendesk. So Zendesk has this really great dashboard for statistics. So we can see how many tickets and what are the common things. One thing I really love in the dashboard is the search queries. People that are searching our help center, that's a gold mine of ideas of what people are looking for and what problems they're having. So what do you guys use at GatherUp? I'm just curious how you measure and measure success and what's important in support.34:50 Aaron: We use Help Scout and have for a long time and it's at the point where I'm not in it daily, does everything that we needed to and same things you're talking about. Response times, ticket close times, all of that information is available to us. We obviously have it wired in, integrated to a ton of things from everything from... For live chat we use Olark and if Olark's... If we're offline with live chat then it automatically goes and creates a ticket in Help Scout so we can address it that way. And then the same... Right, using tagging, we also do the same on who's asking, what are they asking about. So we track very, very heavily and we share it in our weekly team meetings. Here's the amount of support interactions in total, here is the amount of support interactions from small business, from multi-locations, from agency resellers and then here's what people are asking about. Like review widget is always one of our leading topics. And then we look at other ones? And that's really great 'cause that helps inform us, do we need to do more with some of our other support features like user guide documentation or something in our emails or do we even need to look at something in the product based on popularity or what are they asking about or what's confusing? 36:16 Aaron: So that has definitely led to us doing a number of things to try to be proactive by taking that reactive data with it. So can we decrease those numbers or be of more help? And even the support team. If they have just one link, they can drop in like "Yeah, your question. We get asked all the time. Here's a very detailed user guide post on this with screenshots. Go to here, and this will help you do exactly what you need to".36:42 Darren: Have you built a email response templates at Help Scout where for really common questions, you've got a template you just fire it up and hit send for the most part? 36:51 Aaron: Yup. They have a few of those put together for the most common ones because there are certain ones it's like, "Yeah, we're gonna get asked what review sites do you monitor?". Boom, here's the answer and here's the link to that full list. So absolutely, efficiency plays are huge.37:08 Darren: That's actually gave me a thought right now. Anywhere we have a template, that would actually probably be a good auto email. So for all customers, when they sign up it's part of the email funnel. It's like email number five is most commonly asked question number two. Right? So just putting all of those frequently asked questions that we have templates for into the auto email and so preemptively giving those to customers that might be wondering.37:36 Aaron: Yeah, totally, totally a good idea that having that information makes you smarter about what people are likely gonna hit as a point of confusion or needing some education or needing to be better is huge.37:49 Darren: Yup. I also was thinking about... I picked this up from that podcast we listened to and talked about last episode about proactively showing more obscure features and ways to use the software into that email funnel. So email number seven in the funnel is like "Did you know that the software can do this? And here's a quick little video on how to do it". Right? I like that a lot too in Email funnels.38:14 Aaron: Yeah, that's something we could definitely be better at because we have so many features. We kick so many out. It's like how do you expose those to more and more users and expose them at the right times for them. Getting smarter around all that stuff is definitely an area I have massive interest in. How do you produce great targeting, right message at the right time for them to be like, "Oh yeah, this is exactly what I should use" or "This will make me more successful with the product".38:44 Darren: Yeah right.38:45 Aaron: Couple other things that I think have been really helpful for us, one, we actually use our own product that after a support instance we send that out to gather feedback and then also request reviews.38:57 Darren: Right.38:58 Aaron: So first surface level, yeah, it's great 'cause we find out is a customer happy with that answer, where they serviced timely, was the interaction with their rep great. But secondly, we have driven more Google reviews for us because you're asking for a review, when somebody's just had a great experience of being helped and again, when we talk about that differentiator as our support team. We see that over and over again where people are like, "Yeah, and man, I loved working with Gatlin. So Gatlin was awesome, helped me do all these things, whatever else. And now I wanna go write a review and I'm talking about Gatlin or I'm talking about this other team member." And that's been really huge at not just getting feedback on the support experience, but people saying, "Yeah, your brand and your service are awesome and I wanna tell everybody about it." So that's been really interesting.39:50 Darren: So wait a minute, are you saying that when a customer support ticket closes in Help Scout, they get into a GatherUp funnel where the GatherUp is spinning the how did we do email? That's coming from GatherUp, not from Help Scout? 40:05 Aaron: Yep. Yeah, so we have our... We basically, our customer success has its own profile within GatherUp. We added that as a location. So the wording's different, the survey questions are different and everything else. And then it allows us to look at what is the net promoter score for our customer success team. And then within the last couple of weeks, Taylor and the customer success team has implemented this for onboarding as well now. And we've just got a couple of those in and that's been great to see where, "Hey, here's how I felt about the level of detail and the timing of it. And man, this person was so helpful in onboarding us." And when you're able to read that feedback from a 200 or a 300 location client, that's a very good client for you and you realize what a differentiator that is. And now that's content you could possibly share with your next prospect, "Hey, here's this company. This brand name and you know this brand name really well. Well, here's what their team said about our team and getting started with our products." So not only do we know the same thing that GatherUp does for other customers, we're producing marketing material to inform the next buyer.41:11 Darren: Oh man, I love that. We're gonna do it too. So we basically, right now we just have the default Zendesk email that comes out that rates customer satisfaction, which is not bad, but GatherUp is so much deeper and so much more valuable. So I'm curious, how are they connected when a customer support ticket closes do you have a Zapier connection? Is that what you've done or do they manually go and enter that person? 41:39 Aaron: Nope. I would believe we have it automated. I don't know specifically if we're using our API or we're using a Zap for it.41:46 Darren: Yeah, I can figure that out 'cause I gotta figure out how I can get Zendesk now talking to GatherUp so that I can integrate that.41:55 Aaron: Yup. Nope, you can absolutely make that happen.41:57 Darren: Cool, well maybe I'll talk to the helpful people at MozCon when I come and visit your booth.42:01 Aaron: [chuckle] There you go. Let's look at it. Let's figure it out.42:05 Darren: Yeah. Well that's awesome. How do you know... Are you measuring ticket volume and using that to identify when it's time to hire another support person? How are you figuring out or you're just waiting for your customer support head, your director of customer support to tell you "oh we need to hire some more people"? 42:28 Aaron: Yeah. This... It's kinda the same to where we were talking about with customer success. We wanna have framework for this. We definitely track support volume that same... In our weekly meeting, customer success department has their section and they're gonna say, here's how many tickets, here's how many conversations, here's how many phone calls, here's how many live chats. We break down all of those things by the medium that they're being handled on. But we don't have anything yet that says this is too much, this is too low. We track the flow of where those are. And sometimes we'll zoom out and say, "All right, what does this look like over the last 12 months?" But being more predictive by using those numbers is definitely a next step for us so that we're able to say, "Alright, where we're at here, one rep full time and two part time on support with the rest of their time on onboarding, we're fine, but the minute we hit this, then we need another and the minute this increase then we need another." We'd like to get it to be a little bit more regimented and predictive.43:30 Darren: Sure, yep. That makes sense. Yeah. For us it's just like we just start to feel it. It's like, we're getting overwhelmed and our response time is taking longer. We've just got too many tickets coming in and then we hire again. But so far we're doing fine right now, but we'll see as we grow.43:46 Aaron: There you go. You never know. What do you feel like is your guys's biggest challenge within your support team right now? 43:53 Darren: I think the challenge is being more proactive. So I don't know if challenge is the right word, but it's the next thing we need to do. Moving from a reactive support position to a proactive success position. And I think we have the resources right now. I don't believe that the support team is completely booked all of their time. And so getting a process in place where we can be more proactive and identifying those high value clients and really trying to reach out to them and help them get set up. There's a big opportunity there that I really have to focus on.44:29 Aaron: Yeah, no, that's exactly where we were two years ago. And the first thing is just identifying it, making it a priority so that everyone understands it and then you lay out what are these, if being proactive is the strategy, what are the tactics that support that that we need to put resources into or make sure we have tools to do. And yes, just you stair step and start picking those up and move up the ladder one at a time while you keep everything behind it at the same level it's at and you can get there. We're two years into that and we still have a ton of way to go. You're always trying to perfect it.45:09 Darren: For sure. It's interesting when you think about you talk about the difference between a bootstrap company and a VC funded company like you see these companies like Yelp and Yext that have invested so much into their sales force and not much into their customer support. And it's just like, it's a complete switch of values. They're just focused on signing people up, not supporting them. And it's such a backwards way to approach business, it seems to me.45:36 Aaron: Yeah. Well customer acquisition gets all of the love and depending upon what size you are, how much does retention make an impact for you? And when you're in a smaller bootstrap company, retention is massive because you might not have the resources to do acquisition all day long. For us we're over five years into the company and we're really truly building. We've had one salesperson on the agency side, I do our sales, but only a very small percentage outbound. But now five years later, now we have resources and we have the right fit with our product where we can very confidently say, "Yeah, now it's time to put fuel on the fire and take the fight to people and go and be outbound sales with it as well." So when you don't have the ability to do that, retention is really huge because as much as you need to land those next clients, you need to keep the ones that you have.46:36 Aaron: Obviously we spend a whole episode on Churn. You could do a whole podcast just on Churn all by itself. But yeah, no, it is super important. And yeah, for some people, I think the bigger they get, the numbers become so macro that a lot of it seeps through the cracks. And we're seeing more and more of that in the space right now where people are coming from some of our larger competitors and they're saying," Yup. I spent a year or two years with them. I didn't get a lot of love. I was paying for features I didn't even utilize. It looks like you guys aren't trying to have everything in the kitchen sink and you absolutely have what we need and you have a few other things that they didn't have because you're a little more focused on the SEO and the local search end of things and wow, it seems like people are raving about your service. So let's work together and that's fabulous. I want that to happen all day long.47:24 Darren: Yup. Well, we should keep that happening all day long for all of our services and products.47:31 Aaron: Totally.47:31 Darren: All right.47:32 Aaron: All right, my man. That's a wrap.47:34 Darren: We did it. We're gonna see you next week and we'll record another episode. Dan, I can't wait for that. It's gonna be great.47:40 Aaron: Yeah. All kinds of fun in Seattle awaits us. And yeah, we'll find a way to hide out and record episode 11 at MozCon in Seattle. And I don't know, we'll have to bring something really festive to the table with us being in the...47:56 Darren: Something, yeah.47:57 Aaron: The same area to record. I don't know if we can sit face to face that might not work, but we just might be like a hotel room away from each other.48:05 Darren: Or back to back.[laughter]48:10 Aaron: Totally. We might have to include some video clips of this.48:14 Darren: [chuckle] Totally. Alright.48:14 Aaron: Riveting stuff.48:15 Darren: Good. Well thank you. It was a good chat. We'll talk to you next week.48:20 Aaron: Alright. Thanks everybody. Remember to subscribe to the SaaS Venture podcast or share the SaaS Venture podcast with someone you know that is interested in sales, SaaS anything to do with software products. We appreciate building our audience more and more and it's all thanks to you guys. So thanks everyone and have a great week. We'll talk to you next time.48:41 Darren: Talk to you next time.[outro music]