Podcast appearances and mentions of chris hodges

This week, we hear from Dr. Michael Guillén, a physicist who grew up in East LA, earned his PhD from Cornell, taught at Harvard, and spent fourteen years as the science editor for ABC News—including a dive to the wreck of the Titanic that nearly killed him. Dr. Guillén shares how decades of studying invisible forces in the universe—dark matter, hidden dimensions, the limits of what science can actually see—ultimately led the self-described atheist to faith and why he believes science makes the case for God stronger, not weaker. Later in the episode, we hear from Chris Hodges, founding pastor of Church of the Highlands, who opens up about the grief, burnout, and panic attacks that brought him to a breaking point after a decade of leading one of the country’s fastest-growing churches—and the five-step process he found in scripture that pulled him out. Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Jesus Calling Podcast Jesus Calling Jesus Always Jesus Listens Past interview: Nathan Davis Jr. Upcoming interview: Victoria Arlen Dr. Michael Guillén The Invisible Everywhere: Believing Is Seeing - Documentary by Dr. Michael Guillén Church of the Highlands Highlands College Legacy Letters: Timeless Principles I Learned, Lived, and Leave Behind - Book by Chris Hodges Interview Quotes: “It’s not seeing is believing; it’s believing is seeing.” - Dr. Michael Guillén “Far from there being any contradictions, actually there were a lot of similarities between how the Bible describes heaven and how modern science describes this visible realm beyond the cosmic horizon.” - Dr. Michael Guillén “There is no fundamental contradiction between the Biblical worldview and the modern scientific worldview.” - Dr. Michael Guillén “Now that I’m grown up, I’m still a scientist, but now I’m a devout Christian. I don’t feel that lonely. I’m finding that more and more scientists are very receptive to the idea of God.” - Dr. Michael Guillén “Science has made it easier for me to believe in God, not harder. I’ve grown accustomed to dealing with invisible realities. It’s the bread and butter of modern science. The fact that God is invisible is no big deal for me, because I see His fingerprints everywhere.” - Dr. Michael Guillén “I liken the process or the feelings of depression and burnout as kind of being in the cave. Like, you know there’s a way out, but you don’t know where it is and it’s dark and it’s confusing.” - Chris Hodges “Many people only know God in the dynamic; they don’t know Him in the intimate.” - Chris Hodges “When I had a new assignment, and a fresh purpose for life.. Joy flooded my heart the moment I knew God had something He wanted me to do.” - Chris Hodges “I call it the bucket list principle—if you want to start living, start dreaming.” - Chris Hodges “I think people can come out of their burnout conditions by their closeness with the Lord, by renewing their sense of purpose and hope.” - Chris Hodges ________________________ Enjoy watching these additional videos from Jesus Calling YouTube channel! Audio Episodes: https://bit.ly/3zvjbK7 Bonus Podcasts: https://bit.ly/3vfLlGw Jesus Listens: Stories of Prayer: https://bit.ly/3Sd0a6C Peace for Everyday Life: https://bit.ly/3zzwFoj Peace in Uncertain Times: https://bit.ly/3cHfB6u What’s Good? https://bit.ly/3vc2cKj Enneagram: https://bit.ly/3hzRCCY ________________________ Connect with Jesus Calling Instagram Facebook Twitter Pinterest YouTube Website TikTok Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

In this episode, Linda and Dana discuss two principles from Chris Hodges' Legacy Letters: the Let It Go Principle and the Do It Now Principle. They explore how holding onto criticism, past mistakes, resentment, or unmet expectations can drain energy, distort perspective, and prevent growth. They emphasize the importance of protecting your peace, practicing forgiveness, and focusing on what you can control rather than replaying old frustrations. They also discuss the power of decisive action, highlighting how procrastination often kills dreams more effectively than failure. 

In this episode, Linda McKissack and Dana Gentry discuss two principles from Chris Hodges' book Legacy Letters: the Gratitude Principle and the Glass House Principle. They explore how gratitude shifts focus from scarcity to abundance, helping people recognize the blessings already present in their lives rather than dwelling on what's missing. They also discuss integrity, emphasizing the importance of living consistently in public and private, making value-based decisions before pressure-filled moments arise, and understanding that trust is built through authenticity rather than perfection. 

In this episode, Linda McKissack and Dana Gentry reflect on two chapters from Chris Hodges' The Legacy Letters: the Bucket List Principle and the Growth Principle. They explore how dreaming boldly keeps people from becoming stagnant, arguing that a meaningful bucket list should include aspirations that both excite and intimidate. They discuss how the distance between dreams and reality is action, and that the messy middle—where self-doubt and limiting beliefs appear—is often where the greatest transformation happens. They also dive into the Growth Principle, and how lasting success comes not from talent or achieving goals alone, but from committing to continuous personal development through intentional habits, reflection, learning, and community. 

In this episode, Linda McKissack and Dana Gentry explore two transformative principles from Chris Hodges' Legacy Letters: margin and compounding. They discuss how living without margin—whether in time, energy, finances, or attention—often leads to stress, burnout, and reactive decision-making, while intentional space creates room for wisdom, creativity, and healthier relationships. They also examine the compounding principle, emphasizing that meaningful success is rarely the result of dramatic breakthroughs but rather the accumulation of small, consistent actions over time. 

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges and Pastor Rick Bezet have an honest conversation about burnout, friendship, counseling, soul care, and the importance of rest in leadership. Together they share personal stories, practical wisdom, and the rhythms that have helped them stay healthy through decades of ministry. Recorded during a season where the GrowLeader team is intentionally focusing on rest and relationships, this deeply personal conversation explores how decades of ministry, leadership pressure, conflict, and personal pain can slowly wear leaders down and what it looks like to recover well. If you're tired, discouraged, emotionally worn down, or simply running too hard for too long, this episode will encourage you to slow down, reconnect with God, and rediscover healthy rhythms for the journey ahead.    All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In this episode, Dana Gentry and Linda McKissack reflect on the opening principles from Legacy Letters by Chris Hodges and explore how timeless principles create clarity in both business and life. They discuss the "Big Rocks" principle—prioritizing what matters most before urgency and distractions take over—and the "Calendar Principle," which argues that calendars should reflect values rather than obligations. Through stories from real estate leadership, coaching, burnout, and personal routines, they examine how structure, intentionality, margin, and aligning time with purpose can reduce pressure, calm the nervous system, and help people build lives that feel meaningful instead of merely busy. 

It is peak bee season and busy bees mean busy beekeepers. Oliver chats to Chris Hodges, from VeesBees, co-founder of the Loughshore Apiary in beautiful Co Down. Back from the Brink starts this Sunday, May 17th on RTÉ One at 6.30pm.

By Warren Cole Smith Megachurches are not going away, of course. But data in recent years suggest their growth and numbers are leveling out, and possibly even declining. In 1970, the United States had less than 20 protestant megachurches, churches with more than 2,000 in weekly attendance. Today, that number is close to 2,000, a 100-fold increase. However, this number has been mostly unchanged for the past 10 years. In other words, after a period of explosive growth from 1970 to about 2010, the growth in the number of megachurches, and the number of people who attend them, seems to have stagnated. Outreach Magazine publishes an annual list of the fastest growing churches in America, and the largest churches in America. I recently compared the most recent list to the list from 2006 — 20 years ago. My analysis was not comprehensive, but it was fascinating. For example, the largest church on the 2006 list was Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, pastored by Joel Osteen. In 2006 and 2026, the attendance listed was 45,000. No growth whatsoever over a 20-year period. The No. 2 church on the 2006 list was Florida's Without Walls International Church, led by Randy White, the former husband of Prosperity Gospel preacher and Trump advisor Paula White. Without Walls had 23,900 attendees in 2006. Today, that church is not on the list. It sold its facility in 2011 following the divorce of Randy and Paula White, not to mention other public scandals. Today, the church still exists, but attendance figures are hard to come by. Attendance is likely in the hundreds or — at most —low thousands. Not the tens of thousands of its heyday. The No. 3 church on the 2006 church is the Second Baptist Church of Houston, which listed attendance of 22,266 in 2006 and still has attendance of 19,564 today. That is a slight decline over the past two decades, but Second Baptist is still a substantial church and a force in the Houston area. Rounding out the Top Five on the 2006 list are New Birth Missionary Baptist Church (22,000) and Willow Creek Church (21,500). Both churches have been wracked by scandal and are now much smaller today than then. In short, not one of the Top Five churches of 2006 grew in the intervening decades, and three of the five had very public scandals that precipitated dramatic declines.  I do not want to overstate my case. As William Bennett famously said, “The plural of anecdote is not data.” I am sharing anecdotes, not data — or at least, not all the data. I will be the first to admit that. And I can think of a couple of good counterarguments to my thesis that the Age of the Megachurch is over. First, while these churches have declined, others have emerged, and some of them are very large indeed. For example, Life.Church of Edmond, Okla., led by Craig Groeschel, now claims 85,000 attendees. That makes it the largest church in the nation. Church of the Highlands of Birmingham, Ala., is led by Chris Hodges. That church claims 60,000 attendees. And Christ's Church of the Valley in Peoria, Ariz., is both the No. 3 church on this year's list and it remains one of the fastest growing churches in the country, with 54,142 in weekly attendance. However, it is worth noting that all three of these churches are multi-site churches. Life.Church has more than 45 physical locations. Church of the Highlands has at least 27 locations. Christ's Church of the Valley has more than 18 physical locations. The multisite phenomenon was rare in 2006 and nonexistent in 1970. It is obvious that if these multisite churches were not aggregating numbers from dozens of sites, their numbers would be much less eye-popping. The growth in multi-site churches, and the anemic growth in the number of megachurches also make obvious that American infatuation with megachurches seems to be in decline. Ryan Burge, my “go to guy” when it comes to church data, notes that the median size of a church in America is about 70 people. Put plainly, the nation's megachurches attract about five to seven million people each week. But non-megachurches attract 10 times that many — 50 to 70 million people. In other words, the megachurch is not now, nor has it ever been, representative of the church experience in the United States. Megachurches feel dominant because they receive media attention, and they can invest in radio, television, and other mass media. But that is an illusion.  Will these trends continue? The answer to that question is, likely, “yes.” First, lots of church leaders, even those in the church growth movement, are growing tired of the megachurch and multisite model. Here at MinistryWatch, we have written about Watermark Church, which abandoned its multisite model in 2021. Most of those sites became independent churches, and they are now thriving. Some of these independent churches have themselves planted churches. Mark Dever, pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C., is someone who has never embraced either the megachurch or the multisite model. His church has intentionally stayed relatively small, less than 1,000 in weekly attendance, and it has been equally intentional about planting churches in the D.C. area. So far, CHBC has helped plant or revitalize more than a dozen churches in the surrounding area. Secondly, it is important to note that the megachurch is at least as much a cultural phenomenon as it is a spiritual phenomenon. Megachurches are the brainchild of Baby Boomers and the post-World War II industrialization of America and the world. That is why I often refer to the “Evangelical Industrial Complex” to describe what has happened to religious life since the 1970s. The industrial model, with its features of scale and mass production, has proven damaging to the mission of the church, and it has lost its appeal to subsequent generations, who value community and relationships. We can now see that evangelicalism's industrial model is good at empire building, but not as good at kingdom building. So, to return to the question that started this conversation: Is the Age of the Megachurch over? The answer to that question may be that it really never was. The sturm und drang of the megachurch movement has turned out to be just what Goethe's famous expression suggests: overwrought, full of passion, but fleeting. Megachurches will not disappear, but after a half-century of observation, we can say that the legacy of the megachurch is mixed, and includes scandal, spiritual deconstruction, and cynicism. In short, becoming a megachurch is no longer the goal to which even church growth advocates aspire. Many faithful Christians are discovering the wisdom found along the Old Paths, and they can say with conviction E.F Schumacher might admire: “small is beautiful.” The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. I'm your host Warren Smith. Until next time, may God bless you.

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges shares one of the most powerful leadership principles from his book Legacy Letters: the Bucket List Principle and why vision, dreaming, and faith are essential to a healthy, thriving life. Drawing from decades of ministry and leadership, Pastor Chris challenges leaders to move beyond routine, burnout, and survival mode, and step back into God-inspired dreaming. He explains how vision fuels faith, restores passion, and brings clarity to both life and leadership. He unpacks the Bucket List Principle, shares a biblical framework for vision from Habakkuk 2, and challenges leaders to stop drifting and start dreaming again. Whether you're a pastor, business leader, or anyone seeking clarity and direction, this episode will challenge you to dream again, believe again, and step into the future God has for you.   Episode Resources: PC's New Book Legacy Letters: ​​https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Letters-Timeless-Principles-Learned/dp/1400251427   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges goes behind the scenes of his new book, Legacy Letters, sharing the personal story behind why he wrote it and unpacking several of the book's most powerful principles. From the Big Rocks Principle and Green Grass Principle to the Tribe Principle, Second Chance Principle, and Table Principle, this conversation is filled with practical wisdom for leading yourself well, building strong relationships, and leaving a lasting impact. You'll also hear Pastor Chris share the heart behind the book's bonus chapter, You Only Live Twice, and why eternity shapes everything we do. Whether you're a pastor, leader, or simply wanting to live with greater purpose, this episode is full of practical principles you can apply today.   Episode Resources: PC's New Book Legacy Letters: ​​https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Letters-Timeless-Principles-Learned/dp/1400251427 PC's Big Rocks Sermon: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/media/big-rocks1   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

Mark 6:7-13 7 Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits. 8 These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff - no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9 Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. 10 Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, then shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them." 12 They went out and preached that people should repent. 13 They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them. NIV 84 LESSON NOTES Hospitality as "Making Room for Jesus": The lesson defines hospitality not just as being nice, but as actively making space in our lives for others as an expression of welcoming Christ himself. Think Subtraction, Not Addition: Spiritual growth doesn't come from cramming more into an already full life - it comes from removing what crowds out Jesus.  Having a Front Row Seat: Jesus instructed the disciples to take only the bare minimum on their mission—no food, bag, money, or extra clothing—to force a total reliance on the work of God. Hospitality or Hostility: Both words share the same root meaning "stranger." In the Kingdom of God, there is no middle ground; we either move toward others with openness (hospitality) or away from them in subtle rejection (hostility). Repentance as a Hospitable Act: True repentance is more than feeling sorry; it is the act of "unlocking the door" to your heart and handing Jesus the key. DISCUSSION QUESTIONS  1. The sermon began with a story of generous hospitality. Do you have a similar story of generous hospitality that you could share with the group? 2. Where in your life do you need to “think subtraction”? What is one specific thing you could remove this week to create more space for Jesus?  3. What does practicing hospitality look like for you today? How can you make room for others in your home, schedule, finances, or daily interactions?  4. Chris Hodges shares "I had invited God to come inside but I had left the door locked." Have you ever felt this way? Do you have a similar story of moving from sorrow to surrender?

In this special episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges gives listeners an exclusive first look at his brand-new book, Legacy Letters: Timeless Principles I Learned, Lived, and Leave Behind, releasing April 14. Originally written as a personal collection of life lessons for his grandchildren, this project evolved into a powerful resource for leaders, families, and anyone seeking to live with greater purpose and intention. In this episode, you'll hear the full audio of the book's introduction—"the first letter"—along with Chapter 1: The Big Rocks Principle. Pastor Chris unpacks how prioritizing what matters most—faith, family, health, and purpose—can bring clarity, peace, and direction in a chaotic world. Through personal stories, leadership insight, and practical application, this episode will challenge you to rethink your priorities and build your life on what truly lasts. Whether you're a leader, parent, or simply looking to grow, this episode will help you refocus on what matters most and begin building a legacy that lasts.   Episode Resources: PC's New Book Legacy Letters: ​​https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Letters-Timeless-Principles-Learned/dp/1400251427   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In Episode 95 of the Grow Leader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges is joined by Tammy Hodges and the GrowLeader team for an honest and heartfelt conversation about marriage, family, ministry, and the principles that build a lasting legacy. Together, they reflect on nearly 40 years of marriage, raising children while planting Church of the Highlands, and the intentional choices that helped them protect unity at home while leading in ministry. The conversation explores practical wisdom for couples and leaders, including the power of second chances, staying connected through every season, giving family quantity time, and allowing each person to live out their unique calling without pressure or comparison. Pastor Chris also shares the heart behind his new book, Legacy Letters, a collection of timeless principles written to leave behind for future generations. This episode is full of encouragement for pastors, spouses, and leaders who want to build something meaningful without losing what matters most. It's a powerful reminder that great leadership starts with love for God, love for family, and a commitment to live with unity, grace, and intentionality.   Episode Resources: PC's New Book Legacy Letters: ​​https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Letters-Timeless-Principles-Learned/dp/1400251427   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

What if the happiest people in life aren't the ones with fewer problems—but the ones who know their purpose? In the final week of our Four Cups series, guest speaker Chris Hodges, founding pastor of Church of the Highlands, walks through the four promises God made in Exodus 6:6–7 and how they reveal the spiritual journey God has for every believer. From salvation to freedom to purpose and ultimately living a life that makes a difference, this message explains how God invites every person into a life of fulfillment beyond their problems. Discover how the "Fourth Cup" — the Cup of Praise — represents the joy of living out your purpose and helping others experience the hope of Jesus. Key Takeaways ▪ God has a spiritual journey for every believer. ▪ Salvation brings us out of the world, but God also wants to remove the "Egypt" still inside us. ▪ True fulfillment comes when you discover your God-given purpose. ▪ Every believer is called to be a minister and make a difference. ▪ Living generously, serving others, and sharing your faith brings the deepest joy. Scripture References ▪ Exodus 6:6–7 ▪ Matthew 5:13–16 ▪ 2 Corinthians 4:8–9, 16–18 ▪ 1 Peter 2:9 ▪ Ephesians 2:10 ▪ John 15:8–11 ▪ 2 Corinthians 9:11 ▪ 1 Thessalonians 4:13 Connect With Us If this message encouraged you, be sure to:

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Dr. Allen Holmes, Senior Pastor of Definition Church. Allen has served at Definition for 25 years, leading it from a congregation of 30 people to one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. But in this conversation, we don't start with strategy—we start with the soul. Allen shares how a personal marriage crisis early in ministry exposed deep character issues and launched him on a decades-long journey of spiritual formation that has shaped both his leadership and his church. Is it possible that the greatest lid on your ministry isn't your strategy—but your inner life? Allen challenges leaders to rethink success, crisis, and longevity through the lens of character formation. Pressure reveals who you really are. // Leadership rarely collapses because of incompetence—it collapses because pressure exposes unaddressed character issues. Early in seminary and marriage, Allen's wife told him she didn't love him and didn't want to remain in ministry. The crisis shattered his sense of calling and identity. Allen—by God's grace—was able to ask: What in me has produced this? That shift from defensiveness to humility marked the beginning of deep transformation. From gifted producer to formed leader. // Allen explains that many leaders are rewarded for production, not formation. A gifted communicator can build a crowd while remaining insecure, defensive, and relationally immature. You can be a great producer and a poor leader. True leadership requires learning to lead yourself. For Allen, that meant confronting independence, insecurity, and relational blind spots—issues rooted in his upbringing that were sabotaging both marriage and ministry. Prioritizing presence over performance. // The turning point in Allen's growth was deceptively simple: he began prioritizing his relationship with Jesus. Guided by a mentor, he learned to read Scripture for formation rather than information and to cultivate rhythms of prayer, worship, and dependence on the Holy Spirit. Ministry leaders face an occupational hazard—handling Scripture transactionally for sermons while neglecting personal communion with Christ. For Allen, consistent morning surrender became the foundation for long-term sustainability. Marriage as spiritual formation. // Allen describes marriage as God's primary classroom for sanctification. Drawing from the biblical metaphor of Christ and the Church, he explains how learning to live in the presence of his wife taught him how to live in the presence of God. Simple daily rhythms—morning prayer, consistent check-ins, shared meals, evening walks, praying together—have sustained their relationship for decades. Rather than competing with ministry, his marriage strengthens it. What God forms privately shapes what leaders produce publicly. Culture flows from character. // Over 25 years, Allen's commitment to personal formation has shaped Definition Church's culture. Every staff member has a “rule of life” and an intentional growth plan. Personal development is written into job descriptions as the number-one responsibility. Staff are given monthly retreat days to spend extended time alone with Jesus. Spiritual practices are embedded into the life of the church. Allen believes you reproduce who and what you are—so the greatest contribution a leader can make is becoming more like Christ. The power of staying. // Allen notes that lasting impact often requires long tenure. His senior leadership team has served together for decades, building trust and shared formation. In a skeptical culture, credibility grows through consistency. But longevity without formation is dangerous. The process prepares leaders for the purpose; bypassing the process risks collapse. Like Joseph's journey from entitlement to anointing in the Old Testament, leaders must pass through refining seasons before they can steward influence well. To learn more about Definition Church, explore their resources, and connect with Allen, visit definition.church. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Today’s going to be a really good conversation. It’s one of those conversations that I think we all need to have, looked carefully at, think about ourselves, think about the teams we lead. I really do think it’s one of those make or break kind of conversations. And so you’ll be rewarded for tuning in today. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dr. Allen Holmes with us. He’s a senior pastor of a church called Definition Church. He’s been there since 2000, so a few years. They’re located in North Carolina and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. They have a residency program as well that’s called to train and develop next generation of mission-minded ministry leaders. And believing that generosity is a privilege, Definition Church also partners with a number of other ministries, churches, and organizations to really serve their community. Dr. Allen, so glad you’re here. Thanks for being here today.Allen Holmes — Wow. Well, I’m so excited to be here, Rich, and appreciate the invitation.Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be a fun conversation. Why don’t you kind of fill out the picture?Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — Tell us a little bit about Definition. Kind of tell us the story. Give us a sense of the church.Allen Holmes — Well, my wife and I, we grew up down in Wilmington, which is on the coast of North Carolina. In 2000, we were finishing seminary and looking for a church, really looking for a city where we could plant our life and stay in one place kind of forever. And we were in a small town. Our first church was in a small town of about 1500. And Greensboro was one of the cities we visited, and there was a church here that had lost their pastor. They only had about 30 people.Allen Holmes — And the truth is that was safe and kind of gave us a a lot of freedom to make mistakes and learn and grow as leaders and as a man and a woman, as a married couple, as parents, you know, all the things without mistakes, really the pressure of a big church and a lot of expectations. And that was perfect for us. And and we fell in love with the city and it’s been 25 years now. It’s hard to believe that. And and but we love it here. Greensboro’s home now and and Definition’s been great to us.Rich Birch — So good. Well, I want to take advantage of the fact that you’ve been at your location, at your church for a number of years. When you look back over two and a half decades of ministry, and you know you’ve seen a lot of churches in your community, and then just even wider you know across the country, that sort of thing. Where have you seen leadership fall apart in churches? We’ll start with the negative to start.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — When’s it break down most often? Why does, you know, why do the wheels come off? Where have you seen that happen?Allen Holmes — You know, I think generally it’s just anything that creates pressure. So I think we have a tendency to train and prepare as leaders when there’s no pressure.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then all of a sudden we find ourselves in a situation where there’s a tremendous amount of pressure. And in those moments, it’s not what we know that matters, but who we are. Rich Birch — So true.Allen Holmes — It kind of gets it gets exposed. And this happened for me the first time I was in seminary. It was my second semester. My wife, Tina, and I had just gotten married. So we were five months into marriage. I was living my dream. I mean, seminary for, you know, somebody who wants to be a pastor is like Disney World, right? I mean, I’m in class every day studying the Bible, surrounded by all these people that love Jesus. I’ve got this vision for changing the world. I mean, it was just wonderful.Allen Holmes — And in month five, towards the end of that second semester, I came home and and my wife wasn’t doing well. I didn’t realize, you know, how bad it was. But that day I came home and she said, I don’t love you. Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And I don’t want to be married. I will never be in the ministry. I'm going home.Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And it’s like, all of a sudden, my whole world just began to fall apart. You know, at that stage of life, the only thing that really mattered to me was ministry. You know I had this call, this sense of calling. And my marriage.Allen Holmes — I really I grew up in a broken home, really didn’t have any family. And my wife and actually her family were family to me.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And so in that moment, it felt like I was losing everything that mattered. Rich Birch — Wow. Allen Holmes — And I realized that despite all of my gifts and my zeal and my passion and my good intentions, beneath the surface, I had all of this on all of these unaddressed issues from my life story that were now coming to the surface and creating a mess in my marriage. And that crisis, that pressure exposed those things and created an opportunity for me to learn and grow. And by God’s grace, we dropped out of seminary, we moved back home. And I met Dr. Bennett, who became a mentor to me. He was a retired pastor.Allen Holmes — And I just started this journey of instead of being focused on just what I do and what I could produce, which is all I knew up until that moment, to really asking some deeper questions about who am I? And what’s driving all of this behavior and what’s creating this problem in my marriage? And how do I invite Christ to really do a deeper work in my heart and life and character? And and I’ve been on that journey now for almost 30 years.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredibly compelling. One of my mentors, he talks about how he burnt out early and he had kind of, you know, ended up on the side of the road and, you know, in a really bad spot in life. And he says, he looks back on that and says, wow, by by God’s grace, that happened. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — You know, and, and wow, that, you know, his whole, it changed the whole trajectory of you know his life and he made a whole bunch of changes. And he feels really, in a weird sort of way, thankful for for that, if even though you’re thankful, it feels like a weird emotion to have around such a crisis you know in you know in your life. Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — Now, so many leaders, we’re so focused on the mission. We’re so focused on leading others. We’re so focused on pushing forward. We miss this stuff. There's there are these things bubbling under the surface. And and we haven’t had the grace of a wife who would raise her hand and say, hey, this enough is enough. Why do you think that gap is so common in ministry? Why is this just like a thing we see all the time?Allen Holmes — Well, I think to your point, in ministry, just like not just in ministry, but any organizational leadership, you’re rewarded and celebrated for what you produce. And the truth is that’s all most people can see. I mean, when my marriage blew up, if you would have gone around and interviewed my friends, my family, Tina’s family, my professors, if you would have asked anybody about me, they would have said, Allen's a rising star. He loves God. I mean, he he’s doing all the stuff. He’s checking all the boxes. This guy’s going to really be somebody one day.Allen Holmes — But what you couldn’t see is that beneath the surface, I didn’t know who I was. And I was insecure. I was defensive. I was independent. I really didn’t know how to do relationships well. I was insensitive.Allen Holmes — I didn’t have like a bad, ugly heart. I mean, I loved and cared about people. I just had all of these unaddressed, unfinished issues in my life. But my giftedness would allow me to produce despite that.Allen Holmes — You know, I think sometimes people um wonder why are leaders great at leading, but, you know, they struggle to lead themselves. I’m not sure that’s really a real thing. What leaders are good at doing is they’re great at producing. They’re not great at leading if they're not great at leading themselves. In other words, I can be a great producer and a bad leader.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — I can be great on stage and draw a crowd and kind of be a slave-driving leader. And it might, from a numbers perspective and people that aren’t close, they look at it and think, wow, this is wildly successful. But the people on the inner circle know better, that the culture is unhealthy and and this person’s, you know, shallow or he’s a tyrant or whatever the, you know, whatever the case might be.Allen Holmes — There’s all kinds of ways to build a crowd in American culture today that have very little to do with Jesus. And we’ve seen that over and over and over again. So I think in order to be a great leader, you have to be able and willing to lead yourself.Rich Birch — So what did that process look like for you the kind of internal journey of trying to name what your wife had or or define maybe what your wife had named to really get clarity on that? Maybe unpack that step a little bit first before we get on to what changed. You know, how how did you, what did that look like? How, what kind of space did you have to create? What, what, did where did that, what did that part of the journey take you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, when I look back on all this, I’m, you know, I’m just so grateful for God’s grace because I didn’t even understand the process I was in. I mean, you know, I was just in it and trying to navigate it. But by God’s grace, I decided to ask the question, what in my character has produced this in my marriage. And what’s really shocking about that is all of my seminary buddies were saying, what is wrong with your wife? Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And I, by God’s grace, was saying, what’s wrong with me?I had enough humility to look at my wife and go, you know, I married this woman because she was so full of grace and kind and gentle, this beautiful soul, this beautiful person. So if she’s reacting this way, chances are she’s not the problem. You know, sometimes.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Allen Holmes — Something about our relationship is producing that. And actually, so what it was is, my wife grew up in this really great, healthy family, parent, two-parent home, siblings, people in her house all the time. Her mom cooked every night. I ate at their house five nights a week. I mean, it’s like their family became my family.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Well, I grew up with none of that. I grew up with a single mom, basically all by myself, raising myself. And those two worlds just collided. So when we went seminary, I was doing school full-time and working full-time, and she was working full-time. And I thought, well, that was normal. That’s what I’d been doing for years and years. I’d worked my way through college. I’d been and on my own since I was 18.Allen Holmes — And so that seemed normal. But for Tina, it’s like she went from living in this beautiful community to being all by herself at seminary, and I’m not even there. Rich Birch — Right, right. Wow.Allen Holmes — And she’s and so she was relationally just dying, and I didn’t know how to be sensitive to that. You know, I wanted to just say, you know, get over it. Life’s hard…Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — …which would not have worked. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Allen Holmes — You know But I just had enough grace to begin asking, God, what are you trying to do in my heart? And and like you were saying earlier about your buddy, the thing I would say today, if I would have married a woman strong enough to tolerate that moment, I would have been I would have never survived in ministry because I would have been a driven, legalistic, judgmental, demanding kind of pastor that that really, I think, used the Bible to beat people up.Allen Holmes — And I mean, instead of being a man who really actually experienced, I guess, an inner this inner, deeper work and can invite people into something that is deeply spiritual and transformational and life-giving, you know, I would have just been this ugly, difficult pastor to be with. And so I’m so grateful. I mean, that that really began this journey that just changed and has literally touched everything about my life and ministry and our marriage today. I mean, it’s amazing.Rich Birch — Yeah. So what, what changed? What, how did you change your, you know, approach to making decisions, to dealing with the pressure, dealing with the pace? You know, obviously we were kind of at the point in the journey where you took a pause and made some changes, but eventually, you know, you ended up back on that path and back into ministry and have been leading and the ministry has been flourishing. So what were some of the, the kind of shifts that you made that were that, in hindsight seemed like that was, those were keystone decisions.Allen Holmes — Well, this sounds so silly to even say it, especially to Christian leaders, but I had to prioritize my relationship with Jesus.Rich Birch — Right, right.Allen Holmes — Well, there’s a good idea.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, exactly. Write that down. What did he say? No but that’s true, though. Lean in on that because you know that there are…Allen Holmes — Yes.Rich Birch — Listen, we all know we go, we all go through seasons where that our relationship goes colder. Some of us, we, you know, we just, it’s been like years, decades since we feel like we’ve had a thriving relationship. So lean in on that.Allen Holmes — Well, you know, it’s interesting when I when we moved back to Wilmington and I started spending time with Dr. Bennett, he just he just pressed me on that all the time. Give your mornings to Jesus. Give your mornings to Jesus. And I just began learning how do I develop a meaningful time with Jesus every day? How do I read the Bible for formation instead of information.Rich Birch — That’s good.Allen Holmes — And how, you know, how do I worship for formation? How do I what is my relationship to the Holy Spirit and inviting him into those moments to help me see and to understand, to teach and to heal and to counsel me into healing, wholeness, growth, all those things.Allen Holmes — You know, how do I press into community? You know, I was so independent. And the truth is, I mean, 30 years later, I’m still working on this.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I was so trained to be independent and I liked being independent. I wasn’t unhappy independent… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …but independence allows you to hold on to your immaturity because nobody’s challenging it.Rich Birch — Nobody’s in your business.Allen Holmes — Nobody’s confronted. That’s right. And so I just began really developing that time with Jesus and just fell in love with spending time with Jesus. And again, that that changed everything. And again, as silly as that sounds, I’ve been in so many groups. It’s kind of shocking how often I’m with pastors and they just say, I just, I don’t have time to read my Bible.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I don’t have time to worship. I can’t give 15 or 20 minutes in the mornings to the Lord. And it’s like, if that if that’s true, then something is just so out of order about our life and ministry. And we’ve not learned to juggle all of that. And because we’re not handling that well, so many pastors, they don’t finish in ministry. Rich Birch —Right.Allen Holmes — Ministry chews them up and spits them out. And so we have to make that the priority. So important. So important.Rich Birch — Yeah, I really appreciate that. I appreciate you leaning in on that. And this is an area where it’s an occupational hazard in what we’ve picked to do…Allen Holmes — Oh, yeah. That’s right.Rich Birch — …because our our job is to produce that in other people. And so we have to handle the scripture in in a way, you know, it’s like a part of what we do to produce the content we produce or whatever that is. And it can become very transactional if we don’t watch. And so I really appreciate you leaning in on that.Allen Holmes — That’s exactly right.Rich Birch — What about on the married side? What advice would you give? Again, you’ve, you’ve are happily married today and you know, all these years later.Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s right.Rich Birch — And, what, what rhythms have you found that have worked well for you and your wife, for you to continue to lead and to lead, you know, at a high level. The reason why we’re talking is because you’re leading a fast-growing church.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — But, you know, you’re doing that and keeping your marriage. What are some of the rhythms that you, that you help coach other, maybe younger leaders to, to really instill on that side, to, to, to be, to be whole on that side?Allen Holmes — One of the things that was so helpful early on is recognizing that my marriage was God’s gift to me to learn, not just to grow and to mature as a man, but even to learn to walk with God.Allen Holmes — And one of the things you see in Scripture over and over and over again is the primary metaphor God uses to describe our relationship with Him as a husband and a wife, that we’re the bride of Christ.Allen Holmes — And what I found is that my marriage and my relationship with Jesus were running in parallel. So if I learned something with Tina, it strengthened my relationship with Jesus. And when I would learn something with Jesus, it would actually strengthen my relationship with Tina, that they were you know playing off of each other that way.Allen Holmes — And so as Tina and I started working on our marriage, I mean, it was it was as simple like even when I think about giving my mornings to God. When I wake up every day, the first thing I do is I roll over on my knees. I acknowledge Jesus, you are my king, king of my heart and life.Allen Holmes — I invite the Holy Spirit to fill me fresh for that day. And I probably pray there three to five minutes, and then I roll over on my back and put my hand on my sleeping wife. And I just take a minute and begin praying and and blessing my wife.Allen Holmes — And then I’ll get up and I’ll I’ll kind of have of usually a couple hours where I can just be in the Word, I can worship, I can be in so have silence and solitude and just allow God to minister to my soul. And then i don’t ever leave the house without giving my wife a kiss, telling her I love her, embracing her.Allen Holmes — During the day, I’m going to check in two or three times. How’s your day going? What’s going on with you? You know, if I’m driving somewhere or between meetings, you know, little quick touches. Rich Birch — That's good.Allen Holmes — When I get home, I’m going to walk in the house. The first thing I’m going do is I’m going to find Tina. We’re going to eat dinner together that night. At the end of the day, we’re going to maybe go on a walk that night. We may get in bed and just both be reading a book for a little bit. We might talk about our day or what’s going on with our kids or life.Allen Holmes — Before we go to bed, before we go to sleep, we’ll pray together. And again, I want to make sure that I’m affirming my love for… When I describe all of that to people and what I try to tell them is have a response. The Christian life is learning to live in the presence of God. And marriage is learning to live in the presence of your wife.Allen Holmes — And so I know throughout the day what’s going on in the heart of my wife and how to love and serve her well, even when I’m here at work. And as a Christian, I’ve got to learn how do I live in the presence of God and recognize he’s always with me. And I want to bring Jesus into every moment, every meeting, every decision. And versus I have devotional time and I leave God at home. And then I come to work and do my work.Allen Holmes — So that’s just one example. As I learned how to do that with Tina, I saw how to apply to my relationship with God and vice versa.Rich Birch — That's so good. Yeah, that’s so helpful. Let’s talk about how your internal life and your own growth and your own staying close to him, what impact has that had on the church, on your team, on the people you lead? How do you see those two, you know, working together?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. So part of it is you reproduce who and what you are. Rich Birch — True. Allen Holmes — So what we’re describing, and of course, I’ve got 25 years of this, and so that gives me a little bit of an advantage in that regard because this takes time to build. You know, it doesn’t happen overnight. But when this has been kind of the direction of your life for over 25 years, then it becomes the direction of the organization and the people that you lead. And so on our on our church staff and our church and the way we do ministry, the way our we you know our mission is all affected by what we’re talking about.Allen Holmes — And so our staff, that you know, they all have a rule of life. They all have a very intentional plan a plan for their spiritual and personal and leadership growth in their life. And and we work as a team to to facilitate that. In fact, in our job descriptions, their number one responsibility is their personal growth and development. And we tell them all the time, the greatest thing you can do for everyone in your life is to learn and grow as a leader. That’s the greatest contribution you can make. When you do that, you everybody comes up. you You bless everybody. So work harder on who you are than what you’re building.Allen Holmes — And so we just emphasize that. And and then we do little things like, you know, in our in our church culture, we once a month, they have a retreat day where they’re required to go and be alone with Jesus for a whole day. And they’re being paid to do it. Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — It’s their, you know, it’s part of their job. We emphasize a spiritual practice every month, and we’re doing that in all of our groups, and we model that as a staff. Like in January, our spiritual practice is fasting, and we’re about to begin you know a season of prayer and fasting like a lot of churches do in January. And so that’s integrated into everything that we’re doing as a church and to our staff. They’re encouraged to do that, and so we’re just constantly making sure that they’re learning and growing. And then that begins to shape the culture your church. It shapes your ability to actually make disciples in your church. I mean, at the end of the day, if on a scale of 1 to 10, as a follower of Christ, if I’m a five, I can only lead three and fours… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …and I can only attract twos.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then there’s nobody that I can help, right?Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yes.Allen Holmes — Because I’m already at the bottom.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah.Allen Holmes — But if I can be an eight and lead sixes and sevens and attract four and fives, then we can reach down and help the two and threes get up, you know. So my what God is doing in me, and that’s true for everybody on our team, is the greatest contribution they can make, and it brings everybody up. And so that’s just really worked into our culture.Rich Birch — Think at like from a diagnostic point of view. A church calls you up and they feel stuck organizationally. They feel like, man, things are just, they’re not going well. When you take a call like that, is your reflex to go towards, well, where are things with the with the leadership team internally?Rich Birch — Or you know do we start organizationally? Hey, let’s fix a couple of things. Help us talk think Help us think through um how do you handle that kind of conversation? Or how does this conversation inform a conversation like that when it comes your way?Allen Holmes — That’s a great question. I mean, generally my response will be, I’ll tell people really, if you need organizational, just kind of practical, how do I do it information, I just give them some resources, you know, so I’ll send them, go to the Grow Conference. They’re probably the best in the world at it. Rich Birch — Yeah, they're so good.Allen Holmes — They can tell you how to do these different things. But then I want to come back to the thing I think we can help you with is really the soul of your organization, which is a reflection of what God’s doing in you. So let’s talk about who you are as a leader, the way you live your life, the way you lead your staff, the culture that you’re building and creating. Because ultimately, if you get all these systems, but you don’t have culture, culture trumps systems every single time.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And when you get the systems and the culture right, you begin, everybody’s attracted to that. In fact, I think maybe one of the big problems in Western culture, and this is hard to admit, but I think the church has to admit this, is that people, people are not going to church. Church attendance is on decline, but it’s not because people don’t want God. They’re just not convinced they can find him at church.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s so true. Yeah.Allen Holmes — I mean, they’re they’re spiritually hungry, but the cultures of our church, people come into that culture and what they kind of intuitively know is that this doesn’t feel healthy or spiritual. So you can create all the systems you want and send out flyers and do all kinds of things. But if people show up at your church and what they intuitively know is that this isn’t healthy and spiritual, you can’t grow your church. So you have to begin there.Allen Holmes —It’s also true if it is healthy and spiritual, even if your systems are a little suspect, people will tolerate a lot of a lot of that because they’re so spiritually hungry. And I think that’s more true than ever before.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very true. Yeah. Well, yeah, my good friend, Carey Nieuwhof, he says like, man, it would be so sad if people came to our churches and all they found was us, right? You know, at the end of the day, right? Like we were trying to point them to Jesus and as as kind of elementary as it sounds, but it’s just so true.Rich Birch — If there isn’t something happening there that’s bigger than just what they can get anywhere else, why would they come to us? Why would they engage in our churches? Yeah, that’s that’s…Allen Holmes — You know, we just came through Christmas, and and one of the things that I think Protestants miss is is when we think about Christmas, we think about Emmanuel, God with us. We think about the incarnation, God became flesh, and we think that’s something that happened 2,000 years ago. And the truth is, that’s supposed to be true of the church today. We are the body of Christ.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — God in us. And when that’s true, people, when they show up at our churches or show up at our dinner table, they should experience Jesus when they’re with us because we’re becoming more and more like him.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, it’s good.Allen Holmes — And then our life gives validity to our message.Rich Birch — Well, one of the things I’m working on a book for for churches about breaking the 2,000 barrier. And one of the interesting stats that we’ve bumped into is that oftentimes the, when a church breaks the 2,000 barrier, the senior leader and often the senior leadership team have been there for going on two decades, 18 years, 19 years, 22 years. Like it’s just a really common pattern you see.Rich Birch — Now that’s not the perception. Our perception is like, oh, there’s like the just add water mega fast church that just explodes and it all happens. But that actually isn’t the normative pattern. the Normative pattern is it’s it takes a long time. You’ve been at your church for 25 years. Talk us through how longevity, how does that tie into this conversation? How does it tie into the impact you’re seeing, you know, at Definition? Talk us through that.Allen Holmes — Yeah. You know, it’s interesting when I, one of the other real key moments for me is I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon-Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis, in these pressure moments to, you know, expose the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world.Allen Holmes — And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It’s a simple little book, but profound, where he describes leadership development in five stages. And stage one is is a skilled leader where you get a leadership role just based on your skill. So maybe the ability to preach. And so they call you to be the pastor. That’s how I became the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn’t done anything else. But they let me be a pastor because I can preach.Allen Holmes — And then the second stage is a principal leader where you begin to understand why you do what you do. But the third stage, which is so important, is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a choice.Allen Holmes — In that stage, he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work, or he can go back and hide behind his skills and principle. And that’s what pastors do a lot of times. The reason you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this honeymoon season, and then all of a sudden there’s a crisis that exposes some things, and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their skill, rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can advance and become a transformative, redemptive leader. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — So I think one of the things that’s been so true for us is we’ve just tried to say to people, when there’s a crisis, don’t panic, don’t run away, see it as an opportunity.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — In fact, I ended up doing my dissertation on the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders, that it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis. Instead of running from it, they would run to it and open their heart, and God could use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the research said that was true.Allen Holmes — And so we’ve tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something goes wrong, don’t run away and don’t hide.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Let’s run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing, God works redemptively to use it for your benefit and to launch you into your future. And because that’s been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick has been here 25 years. He’s actually here two Sundays longer than I’ve been here. Rich Birch — Love it.Allen Holmes — Eric’s been here 24 years. Jonathan’s been here 19 years. Steve’s been Chelsea’s been here almost this year will be 14 years. Steve’s been here 10 years. I mean, so they’ve just been here a long, long, long time, and that but that’s why, is that they’ve seen these moments and we’ve helped them to find God in it so that actually works for us instead of against us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s great. I love that. You know, I think if more churches, if more leaders had the mindset, even as we led our people that like, hey, if they come to us and it feels like there’s a crisis brewing here, I do feel like our culture is so bent towards like, it’s not just them leaving, it’s us leaving them. It’s like, okay, time’s up, you’re done, like move on. We would never say it that way because we’re better Christians and we know, but but that’s the vibe we give people.Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — And And I do think it’s been interesting as we’ve been looking really from a church growth point of view, this is a really sticky trend that we see that it’s like you, the key leaders have to be here for a long time. And it makes sense on lots of levels. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — This level, it makes sense. It makes sense on just like community influence. Like you you have to be around for a long time. People are super suspicious of the church and they’re not You know, they don’t come like that maybe 30 years ago, people trusted the church. Well, that’s just not true anymore. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — And so when you’re around for a long time that, you know, that makes a difference. And it’s hard to, it’s not like a really pithy bullet point because it’s like, well, just stick around. But it is, it’s critically important to the, you know, to the overall mix.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, that make that reminds me of a couple of things. One, one of the, think, things we have to be careful about today is I think we are doing such a good job of planting churches. We’re all for church planting. We just help the church in our city plant. We’re about to launch somebody out next year to plant under the church. I mean, that’s a fantastic thing, but we’ve gotten so good at it.Allen Holmes — If you’re a 30-year-old and you plant a church and you start with 500 on day one, it could be detrimental to your spiritual journey. And we just have to kind of recognize that.Rich Birch — Talk more about that. Why would that be?Allen Holmes — Well, like when I think about myself, when I came to Definition, we had about 30 people, and we did not average 100 for an entire year until my seventh year here.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — Now, during those seven years, I thought it was the greatest church in America. I mean, we were having a good time, and we were basically a college ministry more than a church back then. When I came, we had an older congregation, but my first Sunday, 15 college students showed up.Rich Birch — Okay.Allen Holmes — And, of course, I was only 26, and so I naturally gravitated towards them. We kind of became this college ministry, and it wasn’t until several years later that they were old enough to get married and start having babies that we actually became a real church. And, uh, but during that time, the truth is God, I just believe God was in that because I was still so young and inexperienced and immature as a man and leader that the last thing I needed was any more success.Allen Holmes — It would have really, success can really blind you to your areas of, you know, where you need really need to grow. In fact, one of the things that you see in several places in Scripture, and one of the things that we tell our church all that time, that the Christian life is a lifelong, transformational journey with Christ. Rich Birch — Yep.Allen Holmes — And you see this in several places in Scripture. Let me give you a couple examples. You think about Joseph. I don’t if you’ve ever thought about this story, but I was preaching on it a couple of years ago, and I realized in this story, there are three times that Joseph has a coat. His first coat as a child is a coat of entitlement, and it needs to be ripped off.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — His next coat was given by Pharaoh. It’s a coat of self-sufficiency. It needs to be ripped off, and Potiphar’s wife took it off. And then third, there’s a coat of anointing where he’s come through this crucible. He’s come through these seasons of pain and struggle and wrestling and and suffering that has produced this character. And now God can elevate him and give him almost unlimited power and authority without the threat of him abusing it.Allen Holmes — Well, without that process, God could never. If God puts any man in that position without that process, it destroys you. I mean, you you’re not prepared. You can’t handle that. You know, tell people all the time that one of the reasons God doesn’t just tell us our future, you know, people are always wanting to know, you know, what’s God going to do?Allen Holmes — And the truth is, if God told us what we were going to be doing in 10 years, we’d try to go there tomorrow. And the process prepares us for our purpose. You cannot bypass the process… Rich Birch — That’s good. Allen Holmes — …and still fulfill your purpose.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — And so God works in that that challenge. I think about Psalm 23, and I think Psalm 23 describes three stages. First stage is that I’m this child. I’m very young and immature in my faith. And then I become this warrior. And then I eventually become friend. But I have to go through the valley of the shadow of death to get up that mountain in order to be a friend of God. Allen Holmes — And there’s no way to bypass that. it’s seeing you You see this over and over and over again in scripture. And it’s just part of our sanctification. It’s the way God works in our lives.Rich Birch — It’s so good.Allen Holmes — Now, one of the things that sometimes somebody might hear all this and they go, well, I know so-and-so. I’ll give you a great example, classic example of this. Chris Hodges is one of the most respected pastors in America.Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.Allen Holmes — And he he has pastored one of the fastest growing churches in in America. But there is a reason he has been so fruitful. And the reason is before he ever became a pastor, he didn’t start that church until he was 40.Allen Holmes — And before becoming that pastor, he’d served under two of the best pastors and two of the strongest churches in America. So he was so much more mature than the average church planter when he started. And I’m 53, I don’t think I’m where Chris was at 40 when he started that church.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — So that was a big advantage in why they’ve been able to be so consistently fruitful for such a long period of time. And we just have to recognize that. And again, that’s why it’s so important that we’re focused on what God is doing in us… Rich Birch — So good. Allen Holmes — …because over time, that’s what produces the best results. It’s just a mature man or woman of God.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Love it. Well, Allen, thank you so much for today’s conversation. This has been a great, it’s been really rich conversation. There’s a lot more we could we could talk about, but I really appreciate you giving us the time today. As we wrap up today’s episode, what any kind of final words you’d give to a leader, as they’re thinking about reflecting on this kind of inner life, leading themselves, you know, trying to align who they are outside with who they are inside. Help us Help us with the kind of final word as we kind of wrap up today’s call.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, I was reading a book recently, and and this quote, I’ve just been meditating on it the last couple of weeks, and it the quote is, God loves us as we are, not as we should be, for none of us are as we should be.Rich Birch — It’s good. Oh wow that's good.Allen Holmes — And I say that just to say I think so many pastors are trying so hard like the older brother in the prodigal story. They’re trying so hard to work for God and to prove something. And I just think we got to begin with falling in love with him and trust he’s better at producing than we are. And if we just fall in love with Jesus and allow him to make us more like that father, his kids will come running home.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — because they’re looking for fathers. They’re they’re looking for that place of grace and life and hope. And so that characterizes who we are in our soul. And people are just so attracted to that. So I would just say to all the pastors and leaders listening, God is crazy about you. You can’t do anything about that. You don’t have to earn it and none of us deserve it. And if we can learn to really receive that and fall in love with Jesus again, it just changes everything.Rich Birch — So good. Well, sir, I appreciate you being on today’s episode. If people want, if we want to send people online somewhere to track with you or with definition, where do we want to send them so they they could connect with you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, they can just Google Definition Church. And I do have a website. There’s not much on it yet. There’s probably not anything there that’s going to help them. But I need to do a better job of developing some content and getting it out there. But the best place to look would be just to go to our website. There are some resources there for churches.Rich Birch — That’s great.Allen Holmes — And of course, you know, we’d love to hear from them. And we really appreciate you just letting us, inviting us to be on the show today and to get to encourage leaders is such a such a privilege.Rich Birch — No, I appreciate you. I just want to honor you. You know, publicly. We reach out to churches like this, frankly, because you end up on the fastest growing church list. And we’re like, hey, what’s God using? And I love where this conversation went today. I think super helpful for people. So thanks so much, Allen. Appreciate being on today.Allen Holmes — Thanks, Rich. Have a great day.

In this special episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, the tables are turned as Pastor Chris Hodges sits down for an unscripted, rapid-fire interview with members of the GrowLeader team. Instead of teaching, Pastor Chris answers real, unfiltered questions about leadership, personal growth, decision-making, dreams, and the lessons he's learned along the way. From the importance of having a bucket list and staying motivated, to how he handles pressure, develops leaders, and maintains clarity in ministry, this candid conversation offers wisdom and practical insight for pastors, leaders, and anyone striving to grow in their calling. Whether you're leading a church, a team, or simply investing in your personal development, this episode will challenge and encourage you to lead with greater intentionality and vision.   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

The cultural moment we're in isn't just tense — it's a full convulsion, and it's landing in your church every Sunday. In this emergency panel episode, Ed Stetzer, Adam Mesa, and Sharon Hodde Miller debate when to speak up, when to be silent, how to deal with fallout, and how to pastor people in a deeply divided age. This is the conversation many pastors are desperate to have but afraid to start.

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges interviews David Ashcraft, former senior pastor of LCBC Church and President of the Global Leadership Network, about leadership, longevity, and the personal cost of leading well.  David shares lessons from decades of ministry, scaling a multi-site church, navigating conflict, and transitioning leadership successfully. A powerful episode for pastors and leaders who want to stay focused, build healthy culture, and lead with resilience over the long haul.   Episode Resources: Global Leadership Network: https://www.globalleadership.org/ LCBC Church: https://www.lcbcchurch.com/ The Advantage: https://www.theadvantage.org/   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In Episode 92 of the Grow Leader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges is joined by Pastor Mark Pettus for a timely and insightful conversation on leadership, transition, and long-term impact. Recorded during the 25th anniversary season of Church of the Highlands, this episode reflects on a year of role transition, the importance of celebrating wins, and what it takes to lead with clarity and grace over time. Together, they unpack powerful leadership principles around vision, execution, personal development, and innovation, offering practical wisdom for pastors and leaders navigating growth, change, and increasing responsibility. From building healthy culture to managing focus in a distracted world, this conversation is filled with real-life lessons forged through decades of faithful leadership. If you're leading a church, organization, or team and want to grow in clarity, consistency, and impact, this episode is packed with leadership gold.   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges brings biblical clarity to prayer and fasting, explaining why fasting is not a burden but an invitation into deeper spiritual authority and alignment. He unpacks the purpose of fasting, different types of fasts, and five biblical fasts that lead to freedom, restoration, wisdom, spiritual victory, and revival. Pastor Chris explains why Jesus assumed fasting would be a normal part of the Christian life—and how fasting is not about punishment or earning God's favor, but about reordering our lives so the Spirit leads instead of the flesh. This episode will equip pastors and leaders to teach fasting biblically, practice it healthily, and guide others into deeper spiritual rhythms that bring lasting fruit.   Episode Resources: 21 Days of Prayer: https://21days.churchofthehighlands.com/   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

A new year brings a fresh calendar, but for many leaders, it also brings pressure, fatigue, and the fear that this year might just look like the last one. In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges helps leaders reset their lives and leadership so 2026 doesn't become a rerun of 2025. This conversation goes far beyond goal setting. Pastor Chris walks through a powerful, practical framework built on reflection and planning, showing leaders how to work on their lives, not just in them. Drawing from decades of ministry leadership, personal rhythms, and spiritual disciplines, he explains why clarity comes from review and traction comes from intentional planning. If you're a pastor, church leader, or organizational leader who wants to grow personally, lead intentionally, and start the year with clarity and purpose, this episode will give you a roadmap to lead yourself well, and lead others better.   Episode Resources: Pastor Chris's Podcast Notes: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R7zq4gKJgtBk3XY9wHpVumubXNexQO1g/view?usp=sharing 21 Days of Prayer: https://21days.churchofthehighlands.com/ 21 Days of Prayer Resources: https://21days.churchofthehighlands.com/resources https://youtu.be/RPTUuKGTy3s?si=gJdV1V8zYJbl36Hn https://youtu.be/x-kdUjOqThA?si=EXUeqPVQ0-rc0Hem https://youtu.be/8jqXLeB-T38?si=VaeGLszNJvCa54MW https://youtu.be/-utE_JsuMnY?si=OapCI4YDDjcjpNo9   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

A conversation about our true identity as believers in Christ and how to walk and abide in that identity in the New Year to come. Joining us is Chris Hodges from Abiding Above Ministries and Dr. Ashley Ray, senior pastor of Old Friendship Baptist Church, Finger, TN.

In this episode of the Grow Leader Podcast, Pastor Chris interviews bestselling author and leadership expert Patrick Lencioni about one of his most powerful tools: The Six Working Geniuses.  Pat explains the six types, how they reveal your God-given wiring, and how understanding them can transform teamwork, communication, and church culture. PC shares his own assessment results, and Pat unpacks how to lean into strengths, reduce frustration, and build a more effective team. A practical, energizing conversation for every leader.   Episode Resources: 6 Types Of Working Genius: Discover Your Gifts and Transform Your Work: https://www.workinggenius.com/   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In this episode, Pastor Chris Hodges is joined by worship leader and songwriter Chris Tomlin to talk about his new album The King Is Still the King, recorded in part live at Highlands College. Chris shares the heart behind the project, songwriting stories rooted in Scripture, and why worship matters so deeply in the middle of cultural chaos. You'll hear the inspiration behind songs like "Still the King," "How Good It Is," "He Has Done Great Things," and "Help My Unbelief," plus a special story about partnering with the Birmingham Youth Fellowship Choir on "Jesus Saves." Whether you're a pastor, worship leader, or believer who loves worship music, this episode will encourage you and build your faith. The King is still the King and this conversation will remind you why.   Episode Resources: The King Is Still The King (Apple Music): https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-king-is-still-the-king/1822580562 The King Is Still The King (Spotify): https://open.spotify.com/album/2ieE6Mqwu3aMWflIdIbNkS?si=ZH_W0w2wRHCZCiy05FVruw Chris Tomlin's Website: https://christomlin.com/   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In this powerful episode of the Grow Leader Podcast, Pastor Chris sits down with two remarkable leaders whose lives embody generosity, stewardship, and multi-generational impact: David Green, founder of Hobby Lobby, and Bill High, author, legacy expert, and longtime friend of the Green family. Together, David and Bill discuss their brand-new book The Legacy Life, a guide to embracing God's design for generational influence. You'll hear David share his family's story of faithfulness, the biblical convictions that shaped Hobby Lobby, and why he believes we own nothing and steward everything. Bill unpacks the mindset shift from ownership to stewardship and explains why legacy is far more than what you leave behind, it's what you set in motion. Whether you're leading a church, a business, or a family, this episode is filled with wisdom that will challenge and inspire you to build something that outlives your own lifetime.   Episode Resources: The Legacy Life: https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Life-Leading-Difference-Eternity/dp/1540904806   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

Thom Rainer explains the difference he's discovered between what growing churches do and what declining churches do. It's simpler than you think. Plus, how can you help the Anxious Generation feel comfortable coming to church? Thom explains what the research reveals.

YouVersion CEO Bobby Gruenewald discusses what's right and wrong with AI, sharing some shocking examples of why Christians should be cautious about trusting AI for biblical accuracy. Bobby also explains how it took 13 years to reach 500 million installs, but only four years to reach a billion, and the changes YouVersion made to accelerate bible reach.

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges and business leader Pastor Lee Domingue sit down for a powerful conversation about the relationship between pastors and business leaders and how that partnership can accelerate the mission of Jesus. They unpack the biblical model of kings and priests working together, showing how vision and provision unite to advance the Kingdom. Pastor Chris and Lee share practical ways pastors can disciple and affirm business leaders, build trust through transparency and excellence, and create environments where both spiritual and financial gifts thrive. Whether you're a pastor looking to build stronger relationships with your church's business community, or a marketplace leader wanting to align your work with God's purpose, this episode offers the tools, language, and inspiration to make it happen.   All Things GrowLeader: Register for GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges sits down with financial expert and best-selling author Dave Ramsey for a powerful conversation on money, leadership, and building lasting momentum. Dave unpacks his Momentum Theorem—focused intensity over time, multiplied by God's blessings—and shares how leaders can overcome fear, stay focused, and develop financial systems that create freedom for both individuals and churches. You'll hear practical insights on budgeting, debt, generosity, and how to help people move from being strapped to being free. Whether you're a pastor, business leader, or simply want to grow in stewardship, this conversation will challenge and equip you with timeless principles to build unstoppable momentum in your life and ministry.   Episode Resources: Ramsey Solutions: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/ EntreLeadership:https://www.ramseysolutions.com/business/entreleadership?srsltid=AfmBOooe1neJpptuijruZ6tSK0G-IkaYA13-OwHHQedMaKWMRVZeR213 Building a Business You Love: https://store.ramseysolutions.com/business-and-career/books/build-a-business-you-love-by-dave-ramsey/ Financial Peace University: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/money/financial-peace The Total Money Makeover: ​​https://store.ramseysolutions.com/money/books/the-total-money-makeover-by-dave-ramsey/   All Things GrowLeader: Learn More about GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges and co-host Matt Minor explore what many are calling the first drops of revival spreading across the nation. From college campuses to local churches, there's a rising hunger for God and it's catching the attention of even secular media. Pastor Chris shares a powerful Pastor's Action Plan to Be Revival Ready—a practical roadmap for leaders to cultivate prayer, strengthen discipleship systems, train leaders, and prepare their churches to hold the harvest God is bringing. Together, they unpack how to balance spiritual fire with healthy structure, keep the focus on Jesus, and ensure revival doesn't just stay in the church but spills into the streets. Whether you're a pastor, leader, or simply hungry for more of God's presence, this episode will inspire you to pray, prepare, and lead with faith for what's ahead. Episode Resources: ‘I think Gen Z is looking for meaning': New data shows Gen Z men returning to church: https://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/i-think-gen-z-is-looking-for-meaning-new-data-shows-gen-z-men-returning-to-church?utm_source=chatgpt.com Not just at Easter: Gen Z is returning to Christianity. Data proves it: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2025/04/20/easter-church-christian-gen-z-men/83138618007/?utm_source=chatgpt.com Gen Z is finding religion. Why?: https://www.vox.com/religion/410359/gen-z-zoomer-religion-god-faith-politics-trump-pope?utm_source=chatgpt.com Young women grow less religious than young men: https://www.axios.com/2024/09/28/religion-poll-gen-z-men-women-gap?utm_source=chatgpt.com Young men are leading a religious resurgence: https://www.axios.com/2025/05/10/religious-young-people-christianity-rise?utm_source=chatgpt.com New Barna Data: Young Adults Lead a Resurgence in Church Attendance: https://www.barna.com/research/young-adults-lead-resurgence-in-church-attendance/ All Things GrowLeader: Learn More about GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw  Follow along on Socials:  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

Twenty-nine stressful events in 14 months. One major health crisis. Zero sugar-coating. In this flip-the-mic episode, Sean Morgan interviews Carey to dissect the hardest year Carey's faced in two decades: how external turmoil, internal drive, and an unexpected diagnosis collided—and what he had to modify to ensure he didn't burn out again.

Julian Lowe never expected to be a pastor, which ironically freed him up to become one. He talks about what he learned at the Groundlings, in Music, and in ministry, sharing why he feels white men are afraid to preach the Bible, and how to speak the biblical truth to people who disagree with you.

In part two of this powerful conversation, Pastor Chris Hodges is joined again by Pastors Rich Wilkerson Jr. (VOUS Church, Miami) and Chad Veach (ZOE Church, Los Angeles) to talk about leadership, ministry, and the challenges pastors face today. From practical insights like weekly prayer gatherings and creating micro-communities, to the role of AI in the church, they share how presence, authenticity, and discipleship are shaping the future. The conversation also gets vulnerable as they open up about spiritual warfare, personal struggles, parenting, and the importance of daily rhythms in God's Word. With laughter, honesty, and wisdom, this episode will encourage leaders to stay grounded, keep growing, and embrace the calling God has placed on their lives. Episode Resources: Rich Wilkerson's Mature Me Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@richwilkersonjr Chad Veach's Leadership Lean In Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@leadershipleanin All Things GrowLeader: Learn More about GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources - Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw Follow along on Socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

"Not everything works exactly the same way forever." In this exciting episode of Better Call Daddy, hosts Reena Friedman Watts and Wayne Friedman dive deep into the world of career exploration with guest Chris Hodges, the creator of the Job Guppy podcast. Chris shares his unique journey from being a validation engineer to becoming a podcast host, revealing the inspiration behind Job Guppy and how it aims to help individuals navigate their career paths. Chris discusses the challenges he faced while interviewing job candidates and the lack of awareness many graduates have about specific roles in the engineering field. His mission is to provide insights into various careers, helping listeners understand the skills needed to break into industries they might not have considered. Throughout the episode, Chris emphasizes the importance of relationship building and how networking can significantly impact one's career journey. He also reflects on the lessons learned from his guests, sharing fascinating stories from diverse professions that highlight the common struggles faced by many in their career paths. Listeners will be inspired by Chris's candid reflections on his own career and the valuable advice he offers for those feeling uncertain about their professional futures. With a mix of humor and heartfelt insights, this episode serves as a reminder that everyone's career journey is unique and that it's okay to not have everything figured out. Join us for a conversation that encourages self-discovery, resilience, and the power of storytelling in shaping our understanding of work and life. Don't miss this enlightening episode that could change how you view your own career journey! (00:00) Reena Friedman Watts: Better Call Daddy is back with more daddy drama (01:38) Reena Friedman Watts guest hosts Chris Hodges' Job Guppy podcast (02:43) How did you come up with Job Guppy (06:48) The original idea was to just describe the job role itself (11:48) The future of Job Guppy will be an actual guppy (12:15) How do you find your guests and what jobs might interest you (17:46) Most jobs I've had so far have been very varied (19:42) I graduated from LSU with an electrical engineering degree and started working in telecom (26:45) How did you go from being a validation engineer to becoming a manager (30:08) One of the first people we hired was working with lab equipment (31:15) What were the jobs that you did before you went to college (35:51) Have you thought about continuing education or going back to school for something else (39:06) What do you like about your industry and what do you think could be improved upon (42:36) You know, everybody says you outsource the editing, stuff like that (45:43) Do you think everyone should try podcasting? What are your thoughts on it (49:11) Your daughter is starting a podcast about politics and religion (53:42) Job Guppy is a podcast about interviewing for jobs (58:12) Sometimes people ask me for a referral and I can't help them (01:00:38) Job Guppy hopes people who are getting into careers will benefit from podcast (01:05:16) My dad listened to the episode. He was like, there was literally nothing there (01:08:42) There wasn't a lot there and I. It was tough. The flip side was not good. You're gonna have to deal with that sometimes (01:09:52) Chris Hodge's podcast focuses on helping people find their way through the workplace (01:14:08) Better Call Daddy is a weekly podcast featuring parenting advice from Reena's dad Wayne Connect with Chris: https://www.jobguppy.com Connect with Reena: https://bettercalldaddy.com https://linkedin.com/in/reenafriedmanwatts instragram.com/reenafriedmanwatts Thank you for tuning in to Better Call Daddy—where wisdom and heart meet.

In Part 5 of our Revival series, JP Pokluda brings firsthand accounts of how God is moving in college stadiums. He shares the Gospel with your Uber driver, server, and other people you meet, what's different about Gen Z and Gen Alpha, and why God is moving so powerfully now. 

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges sits down with two dynamic church builders—Pastor Chad Veach of ZOE Church in Los Angeles and Pastor Rich Wilkerson Jr. of VOUS Church in Miami. Together, they pull back the curtain on the realities of ministry, sharing practical leadership principles, systems that drive growth, and the heart behind building churches in major cities. From vision and stewardship to prayer, empowerment, and developing the next generation of leaders, this conversation is full of wisdom, laughter, and behind-the-scenes insight. Whether you're a pastor, leader, or simply someone who wants to grow, you'll leave encouraged and equipped with practical takeaways to strengthen your leadership and your church. Stay tuned for part two of this powerful conversation, and in the meantime, check out Pastor Chad's Leadership Lean In podcast and Pastor Rich's Mature Me podcast for more leadership inspiration. Episode Resources: Rich Wilkerson's Mature Me Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@richwilkersonjr Chad Veach's - Leadership Lean In Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@leadershipleanin All Things GrowLeader: Learn More about - GrowLeader Conference 2026: https://www.growleader.com/conference Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw Follow along on Socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

Prayer isn't just talking to God—it's an invitation to step into new places with Him. In this message, Pastor Chris Hodges shows how prayer can move us from the ordinary into the extraordinary presence of God, where transformation happens. Let's discover together how to go deeper in prayer and experience the fullness of who He is. Thank you for enjoying this life changing message from Radiant Church. We pray this moves you closer to Christ and encourages you. For more life changing resources, visit us at www.weareradiant.com.

In Part 3 of our Revival series, Andy Wood (Lead Pastor of Saddleback Church) and Luke LeFevre (A Gen Z preacher who works with the Gather movement) discuss a prophetic word Luke received about an outpouring of the Spirit at Saddleback church. They discuss the prophetic word, what actually happened, how God is moving at Saddleback, and the implications for every pastor in America who leads large or small churches.

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges explores the spiritual side of leadership—the unseen battles that impact your life, ministry, and leadership.  Pastor Chris unpacks why some challenges aren't just practical—they're spiritual—and how prayer is your greatest weapon. He shares personal insight like how to recognize spiritual warfare in everyday leadership, use the name of Jesus, the cross, and Scripture to fight back, and finally how to build a culture of prayer in your home, church, or business.   All Things GrowLeader: Bulk order Pray First for Young Readers: https://churchsource.com/products/pray-first-for-young-readers-simple-steps-for-talking-and-listening-to-god?variant=41953943748705 Pray First Book Resources: https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/prayfirst/ Highlands Resources: https://resources.churchofthehighlands.com/ Prayer Guide PDF: https://assets.highlands.io/21days/2023/pray-first-guide.pdf Church of the Highlands 21 Days of Prayer: https://21days.churchofthehighlands.com/ Learn More about GrowLeader OneDays: https://www.growleader.com/onedays Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Follow along on Socials:    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader   Verse References: 2 Corinthians 4:4 Daniel 10 1 Kings 5:3 Matthew 18:20 Ephesians 6 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 2 Corinthians 11:14  John 10:10  1 Peter 5:8-9 1 John 4:4 Philippians 2:9-10 Luke 10:18 Revelation 12:11 Luke 4 Matthew 4 Romans 8:37 Psalm 27 Philippians 4:19 Psalm 103:3 2 Corinthians 3:6 Psalm 121 James 4:7-8 1 John 1:9 Lamentations 3:22-23 2 Corinthians 2:10-11 Ephesians 4:26-27 Ephesians 5 John 8:44 John 8:31-32

Ray Johnston, senior pastor of Bayside Church in Sacramento, CA, reflects on decades of ministry and how to stay encouraged in ministry even when you feel done, why cynicism is incurable, how to finish well, and how to park your ego so you can raise up a team of all-stars. This episode is a 90-minute breakdown of what a long obedience in the same direction and finishing well look like.

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris Hodges shares insights on his upcoming book Legacy Letters, a collection of life principles framed as heartfelt letters to future generations. The podcast delves into leadership development, the power of corporate prayer, and what growing churches are doing differently in 2025—from prioritizing spiritual transformation over attraction to building authentic community and cultivating culture through purpose-driven systems.   All Things GrowLeader: Bulk order Pray First for Young Readers: https://churchsource.com/products/pray-first-for-young-readers-simple-steps-for-talking-and-listening-to-god?variant=41953943748705 Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw   Pastor Chris's Do More of This and Less of This:   Assume people are hungry > Assume people are skeptical  Feed them – engage their spiritual questions > entertaining them Make space for worship, prayer, and spiritual response > Keep services safe and short Designed for discipleship and life change > Designed for casual attenders Give people what they need > Give people what they want Encounter with God > Entertain the crowd Have room for the unplanned > Package everything perfectly Rely on anointing > Rely on talent Focus on spiritual value > Focus on production value Cultivate authenticity > Cultivate stage performance Prioritize presence, truth and transformation > Prioritize fun and novelty Preach and teach the Bible with conviction > Teach principles only Being bold (without being weird) > avoiding intensity Call people to surrender and commitment > Send them on their way full Make it all about Jesus > Make it all about us   Pastor Chris's 12 Metrics of Discipleship:   Know God Committed your life to Christ and water baptized Know how to read the Bible and enjoy it Know how to pray and worship and enjoy it Find Freedom Healthy relationships and in a small group Honest about your struggles Allowing the work of the Holy Spirit in your life Discover Purpose Committed to a local church and connecting with the Body of Christ Discovered spiritual gifts A personal growth plan and growing daily. Make a Difference Regularly serving God by serving others on the Dream Team Sharing your faith Faithful in the tithe and generous beyond that   Follow along on Socials:    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris addresses the challenges of leadership development and discipleship that can happen in churches. Pastor Chris reveals three key disconnects and shares practical advice for developing leaders through intentional conversations about spiritual life, relationships, and calling. He closes by encouraging pastors to begin by creating small group opportunities where authentic development can flourish. All Things GrowLeader: • Learn More and Join the Waitlist for GrowLeader Conference 2025: https://www.growleader.com/conference • Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring • Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources • Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive • Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw Follow along on Socials: • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

Chris Hodges, founding pastor of Church of the Highlands, opens up for the first time about being bullied as a kid, having an inferiority complex, and how that's impacted his leadership. Plus, he shares how to multiply leaders to craft a successful succession.

In this episode of the Mind Shift Podcast, Aaron and Erwin McManus reflect on Erwin's recent trip to Birmingham, Alabama, where he attended the Leadership Factor Conference. Despite a whirlwind of travel from Los Angeles to Houston to Birmingham and back, Erwin shares his excitement about connecting with influential leaders like Chris Hodges, Dave Ramsey, Henry Cloud, and Patrick Lencioni. He emphasizes the power of systems in leadership and entrepreneurship, pointing to Chris Hodges' approach as a model of clarity and effectiveness. Drawing from the principles of "The E-Myth," Erwin highlights how structure and systems are key to scaling vision with excellence.Their conversation turns personal as Erwin recounts his interactions with leaders like Dave Ramsey and reflects on the impact of his own writing and work. He shares moments of recognition from fans at the airport and talks about the global reach of his books, such as The Seven Frequencies of Communication and Mind Shift. Aaron recalls seeing John Maxwell promote books during his youth, sparking memories of the long journey they've both taken through leadership spaces. These reflections underscore the influence of consistent work over time and the power of meaningful connections.Erwin and Aaron also touch on current religious and cultural events, including the appointment of the new Pope with American roots and a love for the Chicago White Sox. This leads to Erwin's own story and his early draw to the story of Jesus. He recounts his hunger for spiritual truth and his fond experiences within the Catholic Church, recognizing how those early moments helped shape his open-hearted search for faith. The segment paints a fuller picture of Erwin's spiritual journey and openness to diverse expressions of belief.The episode deepens with Erwin's retelling of Henry Cloud's insights about the pervasive cultural narrative of victim, persecutor, and rescuer. They explore how this psychological triangle plays out in movements like Me Too or immigration debates and discuss the danger of being trapped in any of those roles. Erwin stresses the importance of refusing to see oneself as a victim or aggressor, instead championing a mindset rooted in ownership, personal responsibility, and mutual empowerment. This philosophy extends to his broader leadership approach, particularly in coaching and ministry.The episode wraps with several forward-looking discussions, including Mosaic Church's evolving future, Erwin's leadership during high-pressure transitions, and the launch of  Ghost Artifacts. Aaron and Erwin describe the uniqueness of the hoodie's Japanese fabric and what makes a product costly versus expensive, tying in themes of quality and intention. Aaron shares excitement for upcoming releases and the ethos behind their creative projects. They close the episode with gratitude for their community, a call to engage with the new Ghost Artifacts collection, and a reminder about the upcoming Mosaic Conference—a celebration of vision, creativity, and the next chapter ahead.

In this episode of the GrowLeader Podcast, Pastor Chris shares a powerful message from this year's ARC Conference on the key to security in leadership. Drawing from 41 years of ministry experience, he unpacks five areas every leader must "die to" and offers practical solutions rooted in his personal journey. Pastor Chris closes with a challenge to "re-up" your commitment—not to just survive, but to surrender.  . . . . Episode Resources: - ARC Website: https://www.arcchurches.com . . . . All Things GrowLeader: - Learn More and Register for GrowLeader Conference 2025: https://www.growleader.com/conference - Join Monthly Mentoring with Pastor Chris: https://www.growleader.com/monthlymentoring - Access FREE church resources: https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/resources - Develop a Kingdom Builders or Legacy Team: https://www.growleader.com/kbvirtualintensive - Watch more episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyCNQpi3YxaOeQAIdSpbeVw . . . . Follow along on Socials: - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/growleader/ - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/growleader

In this special episode we are joined by none other than Pastor Chris Hodges, the founding Pastor of Church of the Highlands! In this conversation we get to sit down and talk about his recent transition of roles at Church of the Highlands and how he set himself and the church up for success. We hope that you enjoy the conversation!

Join Pastor John in a Q&A session with Chris Hodges, Founder and Senior Pastor of Church of the Highlands, as they discuss how to experience explosive growth in your church.

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Henry Cloud unpacks his traumatic childhood and past and offers advice on combatting depression and panic attacks. Plus, Henry outlines the problems with the dominant models of psychology in the church.