Podcasts about die wise a manifesto

On this episode, my guest is Stephen Jenkinson, culture activist and ceremonialist advocating a handmade life and eloquence. He is an author, a storyteller, a musician, sculptor and off-grid organic farmer. Stephen is the founder/ principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada, co-founded with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010. Also a sought-after workshop leader, articulating matters of the heart, human suffering, confusions through ceremony.He is the author of several influential books, including Money and the Soul's Desires, Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), A Generation's Worth: Spirit Work While the Crisis Reigns (2021), and Reckoning (2022), co-written with Kimberly Ann Johnson. His most recent book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work, was released in August 2025. He is also involved in the musical project Nights of Grief & Mystery with singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins, which has toured across North America, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand.Show Notes:* The Bone House of the Orphan Wisdom Enterprise* Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work* The Wedding Industry* Romantic Sameness and Psychic Withering* The Two Tribes* The Roots of Hospitality* The Pompous Ending of Hospitality* Debt, And the Estrangement of the Stranger* More Than Human Hospitality* The Alchemy of the Orphan Wisdom SchoolHomework:Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work | PurchaseOrphan WisdomThe Scriptorium: Echoes of an Orphan WisdomTranscription:Chris: This is an interview that I've been wondering about for a long time in part, because Stephen was the first person I ever interviewed for the End of Tourism Podcast. In Oaxaca, Mexico, where I live Stephen and Natalie were visiting and were incredibly, incredibly generous. Stephen, in offering his voice as a way to raise up my questions to a level that deserve to be contended with.We spoke for about two and a half hours, if I remember correctly. And there was a lot in what you spoke to towards the second half of the interview that I think we're the first kind of iterations of the Matrimony book.We spoke a little bit about the stranger and trade, and it was kind of startling as someone trying to offer their first interview and suddenly hearing something [00:01:00] that I'd never heard before from Stephen. Right. And so it was quite impressive. And I'm grateful to be here now with y'all and to get to wonder about this a little more deeply with you Stephen.Stephen: Mm-hmm. Hmm.Chris: This is also a special occasion for the fact that for the first time in the history of the podcast, we have a live audience among us today. Strange doings. Some scholars and some stewards and caretakers of the Orphan Wisdom enterprise. So, thank you all as well for coming tonight and being willing to listen and put your ears to this.And so to begin, Stephen, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to let those who will be listening to this recording later on know where we're gathered in tonight?Stephen: Well, we're in... what's the name of this township?Nathalie: North Algona.Stephen: North Algona township on the borders, an eastern gate [00:02:00] of Algonquin Park. Strangely named place, given the fact that they were the first casualties of the park being established. And we're in a place that never should have been cleared - my farm. It should never have been cleared of the talls, the white pines that were here, but the admiralty was in need back in the day. And that's what happened there. And we're in a place that the Irish immigrants who came here after the famine called "Tramore," which more or less means "good-frigging luck farming."It doesn't technically mean that, but it absolutely means that. It actually means "sandy shore," which about covers the joint, and it's the only thing that covers the joint - would be sand. You have to import clay. Now, that's a joke in many farming places in the world, but if we wanted any clay, we'd have to bring it in and pay for the privilege.And the farm has been in [00:03:00] my, my responsibility for about 25 years now, pretty close to that. And the sheep, or those of them left because the coyotes have been around for the first time in their casualty-making way... They're just out here, I'm facing the field where they're milling around.And it's the very, very beginnings of the long cooling into cold, into frigid, which is our lot in this northern part of the hemisphere, even though it's still August, but it's clear that things have changed. And then, we're on a top of a little hill, which was the first place that I think that we may have convened a School here.It was a tipi, which is really worked very well considering we didn't live here, so we could put it up and put it down in the same weekend. [00:04:00] And right on this very hill, we were, in the early days, and we've replaced that tipi with another kind of wooden structure. A lot more wood in this one.This has been known as "The Teaching Hall" or "The Great Hall," or "The Hall" or "The Money Pit, as it was known for a little while, but it actually worked out pretty well. And it was I mean, people who've come from Scandinavia are knocked out by the kind of old-style, old-world visitation that the place seems to be to them.And I'd never really been before I had the idea what this should look like, but I just went from a kind of ancestral memory that was knocking about, which is a little different than your preferences, you know. You have different kinds of preferences you pass through stylistically through your life, but the ones that lay claim to you are the ones that are not interested in your [00:05:00] preferences. They're interested in your kind of inheritance and your lineage.So I'm more or less from the northern climes of Northern Europe, and so the place looks that way and I was lucky enough to still have my carving tools from the old days. And I've carved most of the beams and most of the posts that keep the place upright with a sort of sequence of beasts and dragons and ne'er-do-wells and very, very few humans, I think two, maybe, in the whole joint. Something like that. And then, mostly what festoons a deeply running human life is depicted here. And there's all kinds of stories, which I've never really sat down and spoken to at great length with anybody, but they're here.And I do deeply favour the idea that one day [00:06:00] somebody will stumble into this field, and I suppose, upon the remains of where we sit right now, and wonder "What the hell got into somebody?" That they made this mountain of timber moldering away, and that for a while what must have been, and when they finally find the footprint of, you know, its original dimensions and sort of do the wild math and what must have been going on in this sandy field, a million miles in away from its home.And wherever I am at that time, I'll be wondering the same thing.Audience: Hmm.Stephen: "What went on there?" Even though I was here for almost all of it. So, this was the home of the Orphan Wisdom School for more than a decade and still is the home of the Orphan Wisdom School, even if it's in advance, or in retreat [00:07:00] or in its doldrums. We'll see.And many things besides, we've had weddings in here, which is wherein I discovered "old-order matrimony," as I've come to call it, was having its way with me in the same way that the design of the place did. And it's also a grainery for our storage of corn. Keep it up off the ground and out of the hands of the varmints, you know, for a while.Well that's the beginning.Chris: Hmm. Hmm. Thank you Stephen.Stephen: Mm-hmm.Chris: You were mentioning the tipi where the school began. I remember sleeping in there the first time I came here. Never would I have thought for a million years that I'd be sitting here with you.Stephen: It's wild, isn't it?Chris: 12 years later.?: Yeah.Chris: And so next, I'd like to do my best in part over the course of the next perhaps hour or two to congratulate you on the release of [00:08:00] your new book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work.Stephen: Thank you.Chris: Mm-hmm. I'm grateful to say like many others that I've received a copy and have lent my eyes to your good words, and what is really an incredible achievement.For those who haven't had a chance to lay their eyes on it just yet, I'm wondering if you could let us in on why you wrote a book about matrimony in our time and where it stands a week out from its publication.Stephen: Well, maybe the answer begins with the question, "why did you write a book, having done so before?" And you would imagine that the stuff that goes into writing a book, you'd think that the author has hopes for some kind of redemptive, redeeming outcome, some kind of superlative that drops out the back end of the enterprise.And you know, this is [00:09:00] the seventh I've written. And I would have to say that's not really how it goes, and you don't really know what becomes of what you've written, even with the kind people who do respond, and the odd non-monetary prize that comes your way, which Die Wise gamed that.But I suppose, I wrote, at all partly to see what was there. You know, I had done these weddings and I was a little bit loathe to let go, to let the weddings turn entirely into something historical, something that was past, even though I probably sensed pretty clearly that I was at the end of my willingness to subject myself to the slings and arrows that came along with the enterprise, but it's a sweet sorrow, or there's a [00:10:00] wonder that goes along with the tangle of it all. And so, I wrote to find out what happened, as strange as that might sound to you. You can say, "well, you were there, you kind of knew what happened." But yes, I was witness to the thing, but there's the act of writing a book gives you the opportunity to sort of wonder in three-dimensions and well, the other thing I should say is I was naive and figured that the outfit who had published the, more or less prior two books to this one, would kind of inevitably be drawn to the fact that same guy. Basically, same voice, new articulation. And I was dumbfounded to find out that they weren't. And so, it's sort of smarted, you know?And I think what I did was I just set the whole [00:11:00] enterprise aside, partly to contend with the the depths of the disappointment in that regard, and also not wanting to get into the terrible fray of having to parse or paraphrase the book in some kind of elevator pitch-style to see if anybody else wanted to look at it. You know, such as my touchy sense of nobility sometimes, you know, that I just rather not be involved in the snarl of the marketplace any longer.So, I withdrew and I just set it aside but it wasn't that content to be set, set aside. And you know, to the book's credit, it bothered me every once in a while. It wasn't a book at the point where I was actually trying to engineer it, you know, and, and give it some kind of structure. I had piles of paper on the floor representing the allegation of chapters, trying to figure out what the relationship was [00:12:00] between any of these things.What conceivably should come before what. What the names of any of these things might be. Did they have an identity? Was I just imposing it? And all of that stuff I was going through at the same time as I was contending with a kind of reversal in fortune, personally. And so in part, it was a bit of a life raft to give me something to work on that I wouldn't have to research or dig around in the backyard for it and give me some sort of self-administered occupation for a while.Finally, I think there's a parallel with the Die Wise book, in that when it came to Die Wise, I came up with what I came up with largely because, in their absolute darkest, most unpromising hours, an awful lot of dying people, all of whom are dead now, [00:13:00] let me in on some sort of breach in the, the house of their lives.And I did feel that I had some obligation to them long-term, and that part of that obligation turned into writing Die Wise and touring and talking about that stuff for years and years, and making a real fuss as if I'd met them all, as if what happened is really true. Not just factually accurate, but deeply, abidingly, mandatorily true.So, although it may be the situation doesn't sound as extreme, but the truth is, when a number of younger - than me - people came to me and asked me to do their weddings, I, over the kind of medium-term thereafter, felt a not dissimilar obligation that the events that ensued from all of that not [00:14:00] be entrusted entirely to those relatively few people who attended. You know, you can call them "an audience," although I hope I changed that. Or you could call them "witnesses," which I hope I made them that.And see to it that there could be, not the authorized or official version of what happened, but to the view from here, so to speak, which is, as I sit where I am in the hall right now, I can look at the spot where I conducted much of this when I wasn't sacheting up and down the middle aisle where the trestle tables now are.And I wanted to give a kind of concerted voice to that enterprise. And I say "concerted voice" to give you a feel for the fact that I don't think this is a really an artifact. It's not a record. It's a exhortation that employs the things that happened to suggest that even though it is the way it is [00:15:00] ritually, impoverished as it is in our time and place, it has been otherwise within recoverable time and history. It has.And if that's true, and it is, then it seems to me at least is true that it could be otherwise again. And so, I made a fuss and I made a case based on that conviction.There's probably other reasons I can't think of right now. Oh, being not 25 anymore, and not having that many more books in me, the kind of wear and tear on your psyche of imposing order on the ramble, which is your recollection, which has only so many visitations available in it. Right? You can only do that so many times, I think. And I'm not a born writing person, you know, I come to it maniacally when I [00:16:00] do, and then when it's done, I don't linger over it so much.So then, when it's time to talk about it, I actually have to have a look, because the act of writing it is not the act of reading it. The act of writing is a huge delivery and deliverance at the same time. It's a huge gestation. And you can't do that to yourself, you know, over and over again, but you can take some chances, and look the thing in the eye. So, and I think some people who are there, they're kind of well-intended amongst them, will recognize themselves in the details of the book, beyond "this is what happened and so on." You know, they'll recognize themselves in the advocacy that's there, and the exhortations that are there, and the [00:17:00] case-making that I made and, and probably the praying because there's a good degree of prayerfulness in there, too.That's why.Chris: Thank you. bless this new one in the world. And what's the sense for you?Stephen: Oh, yes.Chris: It being a one-week old newborn. How's that landing in your days?Stephen: Well, it's still damp, you know. It's still squeaky, squeaky and damp. It's walking around like a newborn primate, you know, kind of swaying in the breeze and listening to port or to starboard according to whatever's going on.I don't know that it's so very self-conscious in the best sense of that term, yet. Even though I recorded the audio version, I don't think [00:18:00] it's my voice is found every nook and cranny at this point, yet. So, it's kind of new. It's not "news," but it is new to me, you know, and it's very early in terms of anybody responding to it.I mean, nobody around me has really taken me aside and say, "look, now I want to tell you about this book you wrote." It hasn't happened, and we'll see if it does, but I've done a few events on the other side of the ocean and hear so far, very few, maybe handful of interviews. And those are wonderful opportunities to hear something of what you came up with mismanaged by others, you know, misapprehend, you could say by others.No problem. I mean, it's absolutely no problem. And if you don't want that to happen, don't talk, don't write anything down. So, I don't mind a bit, you know, and the chances are very good that it'll turn into things I didn't have in mind [00:19:00] as people take it up, and regard their own weddings and marriages and plans and schemes and fears and, you know, family mishigas and all the rest of it through this particular lens, you know. They may pick up a pen or a computer (it's an odd expression, "pick up a computer"), and be in touch with me and let me know. "Yeah, that was, we tried it" or whatever they're going to do, because, I mean, maybe Die Wise provided a bit of an inkling of how one might be able to proceed otherwise in their dying time or in their families or their loved ones dying time.This is the book that most readily lends itself to people translating into something they could actually do, without a huge kind of psychic revolution or revolt stirring in them, at least not initially. This is as close as I come, probably, to writing a sequence of things [00:20:00] that could be considered "add-ons" to what people are already thinking about, that I don't force everybody else outta the house in order to make room for the ideas that are in the book. That may happen, anyway, but it wasn't really the intent. The intent was to say, you know, we are in those days when we're insanely preoccupied with the notion of a special event. We are on the receiving end of a considerable number of shards showing up without any notion really about what these shards remember or are memories of. And that's the principle contention I think that runs down the spine of the book, is that when we undertake matrimony, however indelicately, however by rote, you know, however mindlessly we may do it, [00:21:00] inadvertently, we call upon those shards nonetheless.And they're pretty unspectacular if you don't think about them very deeply, like the rice or confetti, like the aisle, like the procession up the aisle, like the giving away of someone, like the seating arrangement, like the spectacle seating arrangement rather than the ritual seating arrangement.And I mean, there's a fistful of them. And they're around and scholars aside maybe, nobody knows why they do them. Everybody just knows, "this is what a wedding is," but nobody knows why. And because nobody knows why, nobody really seems to know what a wedding is for, although they do proceed like they would know a wedding if they saw one. So, I make this a question to be really wondered about, and the shards are a way in. They're the kind of [00:22:00] breadcrumb trail through the forest. They're the little bits of broken something, which if you begin to handle just three or four of them, and kind of fit them together, and find something of the original shape and inflection of the original vessel, kind of enunciates, begins to murmur in your hands, and from it you can begin to infer some three-dimensionality to the original shape. And from the sense of the shape, you get a set sense of contour, and from the sense of contour, you get a sense of scale or size. And from that you get a sense of purpose, or function, or design. And from that you get a sense of some kind of serious magisterial insight into some of the fundament of human being that was manifest in the "old-order matrimony," [00:23:00] as I came to call it.So, who wouldn't wanna read that book?Chris: Mm-hmm.Thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you, Stephen. Yeah. It reminds me, just before coming up here, maybe two weeks ago, I was in attending a wedding. And there was a host or mc, and initially just given what I was hearing over the microphone, it was hard to tell if he was hired or family or friends. And it turned out he was, in fact, a friend of the groom. And throughout the night he proceeded to take up that role as a kind of comedian.Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: This was the idea, I guess. Mm-hmm. And he was buzzing and mumbling and swearing into the microphone, [00:24:00] and then finally minimizing the only remnant of traditional culture that showed up in the wedding. And his thing was, okay, so when can we get to the part where it's boom, boom, boom, right. And shot, shot, shot, whatever.Stephen: Right.Chris: There was so much that came up in my memories in part because I worked about a decade in Toronto in the wedding industry.Mm-hmm. Hospitality industry. Maybe a contradiction in terms, there. And there was one moment that really kind of summed it up. I kept coming back to this reading the book because it was everything that you wrote seemed to not only antithetical to this moment, but also an antidote.Anyways, it was in North Toronto and the [00:25:00] owner of the venue - it was a kind of movie theatre turned event venue - and there was a couple who was eventually going to get married there. They came in to do their tasting menu to see what they wanted to put on the menu for the dinner, for their wedding.And the owner was kind of this mafioso type. And he comes in and he sees them and he walks over and he says, "so, you're gonna get married at my wedding factory."Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: In all sincerity.Stephen: Mm-hmm.Chris: Right.Without skipping a beat. Could you imagine?Stephen: Yeah.I could. I sure could.Chris: Yeah. Yeah.Stephen: I mean, don't forget, if these people weren't doing what the people wanted, they'd be outta business.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: No, that's the thing. This is aiding and abetting. This is sleeping with the enemy, stylistically-speaking. [00:26:00] The fact that people "settle" (that's the term I would use for it), settle for this, the idea being that this somehow constitutes the most honest and authentic through line available to us is just jaw dropping. When you consider what allegedly this thing is supposed to be for. I mean, maybe we'll get into this, but I'll just leave this as a question for now. What is that moment allegedly doing?Not, what are the people in it allegedly doing? The moment itself, what is it? How is it different from us sitting here now talking about it? And how is it different from the gory frigging jet-fuelled aftermath of excess. And how's it different from the cursing alleged master of ceremonies? How can you [00:27:00] tell none of those things belong to this thing?And why do you have such a hard time imagining what doesAudience: Hmm mmChris: Well that leads me to my next question.Stephen: Ah, you're welcome.Chris: So, I've pulled a number of quotes from the book to read from over the course of the interview. And this one for anyone who's listening is on page 150. And you write Stephen,"Spiritually-speaking, most of the weddings in our corner of the world are endogamous affairs, inward-looking. What is, to me, most unnerving is that they can be spiritually-incestuous. The withering of psychic difference between people is the program of globalization. It is in the architecture of most things partaking of the internet, and it is in the homogeneity of our matrimony. [00:28:00] It is this very incestuous that matrimony was once crafted and entered into to avoid and subvert. Now, it grinds upon our differences until they are details.And so, this paragraph reminded me of a time in my youth when I seemed to be meeting couples who very eerily looked like each other. No blood or extended kin relation whatsoever, and yet they had very similar faces. And so as I get older, this kind of face fidelity aside, I continue to notice that people looking for companionship tend to base their search on similitude, on shared interests, customs, experiences, shared anything and everything. This, specifically, in opposition to those on the other side of the aisle or spectrum, to difference or divergence. And so, opposites don't attract anymore. I'm curious what you think this psychic [00:29:00] withering does to an achieve understanding of matrimony.Stephen: Well, I mean, let's wonder what it does to us, generally, first before we get to matrimony, let's say. It demonizes. Maybe that's too strong, but it certainly reconstitutes difference as some kind of affliction, some kind of not quite good enough, some kind of something that has to be overcome or overwhelmed on the road to, to what? On the road to sameness? So, if that's the goal, then are all of the differences between us, aberrations of some kind, if that's the goal? If that's the goal, are all the [00:30:00] differences between us, not God-given, but humanly misconstrued or worse? Humanly wrought? Do the differences between us conceivably then belong at all? Or is the principle object of the entire endeavor to marry yourself, trying to put up with the vague differences that the other person represents to you?I mean, I not very jokingly said years ago, that I coined a phrase that went something like "the compromise of infinity, which is other people." What does that mean? "The compromise of infinity, which is other people." Not to mention it's a pretty nice T-shirt. But what I meant by the [00:31:00] phrase is this: when you demonize difference in this fashion or when you go the other direction and lionize sameness, then one of the things that happens is that compromise becomes demonized, too. Compromise, by definition, is something you never should have done, right? Compromise is how much you surrender of yourself in order to get by. That's what all these things become. And before you know it, you're just beaten about the head and shoulders about "codependence" and you know, not being "true to yourself" as if being true to yourself is some kind of magic.I mean, the notion that "yourself is the best part of you" is just hilarious. I mean, when you think about it, like who's running amuck if yourself is what you're supposed to be? I ask you. Like, who's [00:32:00] doing the harm? Who's going mental if the self is such a good idea? So, of course, I'm maintaining here that I'm not persuaded that there is such a thing.I think it's a momentary lapse in judgment to have a self and to stick to it. That's the point I'm really making to kind of reify it until it turns ossified and dusty and bizarrely adamant like that estranged relative that lives in the basement of your house. Bizarrely, foreignly adamant, right? Like the house guest who just won't f**k off kind of thing.Okay, so "to thine own self be true," is it? Well, try being true to somebody else's self for ten minutes. Try that. [00:33:00] That's good at exercise for matrimony - being true to somebody else's self. You'll discover that their selves are not made in heaven, either. Either. I underscore it - either. I've completely lost track of the question you asked me.Chris: What are the consequences of the sameness on this anti-cultural sameness, and the program of it for an achieved understanding of matrimony.Stephen: Thank you. Well, I will fess up right now. I do so in the book. That's a terrible phrase. I swear I'd never say such a thing. "In my book... I say the following," but in this case, it's true. I did say this. I realized during the writing of it that I had made a tremendous tactical error in the convening of the event as I did it over the years, [00:34:00] and this is what it came to.I was very persuaded at the time of the story that appears in the chapter called "Salt and Indigo" in the book. I was very, very persuaded. I mean, listen, I made up the story (for what it's worth), okay, but I didn't make it up out of nothing. I made it up out of a kind of tribal memory that wouldn't quite let go.And in it, I was basically saying, here's these two tribes known principally for what they trade in and what they love most emphatically. They turn out to be the same thing. And I describe a circumstance in which they exchange things in a trade scenario, not a commerce scenario. And I'm using the chapter basically to make the case that matrimony's architecture derives in large measure from the sacraments of trade as manifest in that story. [00:35:00] Okay. And this is gonna sound obvious, but the fundamental requirement of the whole conceit that I came up with is that there are two tribes. Well, I thought to myself, "of course, there's always two tribes" at the time. And the two tribe-ness is reflected in when you come to the wedding site, you're typically asked (I hope you're still asked) " Are you family or friend of the groom or friend of the bride?" And you're seated "accordingly," right? That's the nominal, vestigial shard of this old tribal affiliation, that people came from over the rise, basically unknown to each other, to arrive at the kind of no man's land of matrimony, and proceeded accordingly. So, I put these things into motion in this very room and I sat people accordingly facing each other, not facing the alleged front of the room. [00:36:00] And of course, man, nobody knew where to look, because you raised your eyes and s**t. There's just humans across from you, just scads of them who you don't freaking know. And there's something about doing that to North Americas that just throws them. So, they're just looking at each other and then looking away, and looking at each other and looking away, and wondering what they're doing here and what it's for. And I'm going back and forth for three hours, orienting them as to what is is coming.Okay, so what's the miscalculation that I make? The miscalculation I made was assuming that by virtue of the seating arrangement, by virtue of me reminding them of the salt and indigo times, by virtue of the fact that they had a kind of allegiance of some sort or another to the people who are, for the moment, betrothed, that those distinctions and those affiliations together would congeal them, and constitute a [00:37:00] kind of tribal affiliation that they would intuitively be drawn towards as you would be drawn to heat on a cold winter's night.Only to discover, as I put the thing into motion that I was completely wrong about everything I just told you about. The nature of my error was this, virtually all of those people on one side of the room were fundamentally of the same tribe as the people on the other side of the room, apropos of your question, you see. They were card carrying members of the gray dominant culture of North America. Wow. The bleached, kind of amorphous, kind of rootless, ancestor-free... even regardless of whether their people came over in the last generation from the alleged old country. It doesn't really claim them.[00:38:00]There were two tribes, but I was wrong about who they were. That was one tribe. Virtually everybody sitting in the room was one tribe.So, who's the other tribe? Answer is: me and the four or five people who were in on the structural delivery of this endeavour with me. We were the other tribe.We didn't stand a chance, you see?And I didn't pick up on that, and I didn't cast it accordingly and employ that, instead. I employed the conceit that I insisted was manifest and mobilized in the thing, instead of the manifest dilemma, which is that everybody who came knew what a wedding was, and me and four or five other people were yet to know if this could be one. That was the tribal difference, if you [00:39:00] will.So, it was kind of invisible, wasn't it? Even to me at the time. Or, I say, maybe especially to me at the time. And so, things often went the way they went, which was for however much fascination and willingness to consider that there might have been in the room, there was quite a bit more either flat affect and kind of lack of real fascination, or curiosity, or sometimes downright hostility and pushback. Yeah.So, all of that comes from the fact that I didn't credit as thoroughly as I should have done, the persistence in Anglo-North America of a kind of generic sameness that turned out to be what most people came here ancestrally to become. "Starting again" is recipe for culture [00:40:00] loss of a catastrophic order. The fantasy of starting again. Right?And we've talked about that in your podcast, and you and I have talked about it privately, apropos of your own family and everybody's sitting in this room knows what I'm talking about. And when does this show up? Does it show up, oh, when you're walking down the street? Does it show up when you're on the mountaintop? Does it show up in your peak experiences? And the answer is "maybe." It probably shows up most emphatically in those times when you have a feeling that something special is supposed to be so, and all you can get from the "supposed to" is the allegation of specialness.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: And then, you look around in the context of matrimony and you see a kind of febral, kind of strained, the famous bridezilla stuff, all of that stuff. [00:41:00] You saw it in the hospitality industry, no doubt. You know, the kind of mania for perfection, as if perfection constitutes culture. Right? With every detail checked off in the checkbox, that's culture. You know, as if everything goes off without a hitch and there's no guffaws. And in fact, anybody could reasonably make the case, "Where do you think culture appears when the script finally goes f*****g sideways?" That's when. And when you find out what you're capable of, ceremonially.And generally speaking, I think most people discovered that their ceremonial illiteracy bordered on the bottomless.That's when you find out. Hmm.Chris: Wow.Stephen: Yeah. And that's why people, you know, in speech time, they reach in there and get that piece of paper, and just look at it. Mm-hmm. They don't even look up, terrified that they're gonna go off script for a minute as [00:42:00] if the Gods of Matrimony are a scripted proposition.Chris: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with us, that degree of deep reflection and humility that I'm sure comes with it.Stephen: Mea Culpa, baby. Yeah, I was, I got that one totally wrong. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know it at the time. Meanwhile, like, how much can you transgress and have the consequences of doing so like spill out across the floor like a broken thermometer's mercury and not wise up.But of course, I was as driven as anybody. I was as driven to see if I could come through with what I promised to do the year before. And keeping your promise can make you into a maniac.Audience: Hmm hmm.Chris: But I imagine that, you [00:43:00] know, you wouldn't have been able to see that even years later if you didn't say yes in the first place.Stephen: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I wouldn't have been able to make the errors.Chris: Right.Stephen: Right. Yeah. I mean, as errors go, this is not a mortal sin. Right, right. And you could chalk it up to being a legitimate miscalculation. Well, so? All I'm saying is, it turns out I was there too, and it turns out, even though I was allegedly the circus master of the enterprise, I wasn't free and clear of the things we were all contending with, the kind of mortality and sort of cultural ricketiness that were all heirs to. That's how I translated it, as it turns out.So, PS there was a moment, [00:44:00] which I don't remember which setting it was now, but there was a moment when the "maybe we'll see if she becomes a bride" bride's mother slid up to me during the course of the proceedings, and in a kind of stage whisper more or less hissed me as follows."Is this a real wedding?"I mean, that's not a question. Not in that setting, obviously not. That is an accusation. Right. And a withering one at that. And there was a tremendous amount of throw-down involved.So, was it? I mean, what we do know is that she did not go to any of the weddings [00:45:00] that she was thinking of at the time, and go to the front of the room where the celebrant is austerely standing there with the book, or the script, or the well-intentioned, or the self-penned vows and never hissed at him or her, "is this a real wedding?"Never once did she do that. We know that.Right.And I think we know why. But she was fairly persuaded she knew what a real wedding was. And all she was really persuaded by was the poverty of the weddings that she'd attended before that one. Well, I was as informed in that respect as she was, wasn't I? I just probably hadn't gone to as many reprobate weddings as she had, so she had more to deal with than I did, even though I was in the position of the line of fire.And I didn't respond too well to the question, I have to say. At the moment, I was rather combative. But I mean, you try to do [00:46:00] what I tried to do and not have a degree of fierceness to go along with your discernment, you know, just to see if you can drag this carcass across the threshold. Anyway, that happened too.Chris: Wow. Yeah. Dominant culture of North America.Stephen: Heard of it.Chris: Yeah. Well, in Matrimony, there's quite a bit in which you write about hospitality and radical hospitality. And I wanted to move in that direction a little bit, because in terms of these kind of marketplace rituals or ceremonies that you were mentioning you know, it's something that we might wonder, I think, as you have, how did it come to be this [00:47:00] way?And so I'd like to, if I can once again, quote from matrimony in which you speak to the etymology of hospitality. And so for those interested on page 88,"the word hospitality comes from hospitaller, meaning 'one who cares for the afflicted, the infirm, the needy.' There's that thread of our misgivings about being on the receiving end of hospitality. Pull on it. For the written history of the word, at least, it has meant, 'being on the receiving end of a kind of care you'd rather not need.'"End quote.Stephen: That's so great. I mean, before you go on with the quote. It's so great to know that the word, unexamined, just kind of leaks upside, doesn't it? Hospitality, I mean, nobody goes "Hospitality, ew." [00:48:00] And then, if you just quietly do the obvious math to yourself, there's so much awkwardness around hospitality.This awkwardness must have an origin, have a home. There must be some misgiving that goes along with the giving of hospitality, mustn't there be? How else to understand where that kind of ickiness is to be found. Right? And it turns out that the etymology is giving you the beginnings of a way of figuring it out what it is that you're on the receiving end of - a kind of succor that you wish you didn't need, which is why it's the root word for "hospital."Chris: Hmm hmm. Wow.Audience: Hmm.Chris: May I repeat that sentence please? Once more."For the written history of the word, at least, it has meant, [00:49:00] 'being on the receiving end of a kind of care you'd rather not need.'"And so this last part hits home for me as I imagine it does for many.And it feels like the orthodoxy of hospitality in our time is one based not only in transaction, but in debt. And if you offer hospitality to me, then I owe you hospitality.Stephen: Right.Chris: I'm indebted to you. And we are taught, in our time, that the worst thing to be in is in debt.Stephen: Right?Chris: And so people refuse both the desire to give as well as the learning skill of receiving. And this is continuing on page 88 now."But there's mystery afoot with this word. In its old Latin form, hospice meant both 'host' and 'guest.'"Stephen: Amazing. One. Either one, This is absolutely amazing. We're fairly sure that there's a [00:50:00] acres of difference between the giver of hospitality and the receiver that the repertoire is entirely different, that the skew between them is almost insurmountable, that they're not interchangeable in any way. But the history of the word immediately says, "really?" The history of the word, without question, says that "host" and "guest" are virtually the same, sitting in different places, being different people, more or less joined at the hip. I'll say more, but you go ahead with what you were gonna do. Sure.Chris: "In it's proto Indo-European origins, hospitality and hospice is a compound word: gosh + pot. And it meant something like [00:51:00] 'stranger/guest/host + powerful Lord.'It is amazing to me that ancestrally, the old word for guest, host, and stranger were all the same word. Potent ceremonial business, this is. In those days, the server and the serve were partners in something mysterious. This could be confusing, but only if you think of guest, host, and stranger as fixed identities.If you think of them as functions, as verbs, the confusion softens and begins to clear. The word hospice in its ancient root is telling us that each of the people gathered together in hospitality is bound to the others by formal etiquette, yes, but the bond is transacted through a subtle scheme of graces.Hospitality, it tells us, is a web of longing and belonging that binds people for a time, some hithereto unknown to each other is a clutch of mutually-binding elegances, you could say. In its ancient practice, [00:52:00] hospitality was a covenant. According to that accord, however we were with each other. That was how the Gods would be with us. We learn our hospitality by being on the receiving end of Godly administration. That's what giving thanks for members. We proceed with our kin in imitation of that example and in gratitude for it."Mm-hmm.And so today, among "secular" people, with the Gods ignored, this old-time hospitality seems endangered, if not fugitive. I'm curious how you imagine that this rupture arose, the ones that separated and commercialized the radical relationships between hosts and guests, that turned them from verbs to nouns and something like strangers to marketplace functions.[00:53:00]Stephen: Well, of course this is a huge question you've asked, and I'll see if I can unhuge it a bit.Chris: Uhhuh.Stephen: Let's go right to the heart of what happened. Just no preliminaries, just right to it.So, to underscore again, the beauty of the etymology. I've told you over and over again, the words will not fail you. And this is just a shining example, isn't it? That the fraternization is a matter of ceremonial alacrity that the affiliation between host and guest, which makes them partners in something, that something is the [00:54:00] evocation of a third thing that's neither one of them. It's the thing they've lent themselves to by virtue of submitting to being either a host or a guest. One.Two. You could say that in circumstances of high culture or highly-functioning culture, one of the principle attributes of that culture is that the fundament of its understanding, is that only with the advent of the stranger in their midst that the best of them comes forward.Okay, follow that. Yeah.So, this is a little counterintuitive for those of us who don't come from such places. We imagine that the advent of strangers in the midst of the people I'm describing would be an occasion where people hide their [00:55:00] best stuff away until the stranger disappears, and upon the disappearance of the stranger, the good stuff comes out again.You know?So, I'm just remembering just now, there's a moment in the New Testament where Jesus says something about the best wine and he's coming from exactly this page that we're talking about - not the page in the book, but this understanding. He said, you know, "serve your best wine first," unlike the standard, that prevails, right?So again, what a stranger does in real culture is call upon the cultural treasure of the host's culture, and provides the opportunity for that to come forward, right? By which you can understand... Let's say for simplicity's sake, there's two kinds of hospitality. There's probably all kinds of gradations, [00:56:00] but for the purposes of responding to what you've asked, there's two.One of them is based on kinship. Okay? So, family meal. So, everybody knows whose place is whose around the table, or it doesn't matter - you sit wherever you want. Or, when we're together, we speak shorthand. That's the shorthand of familiarity and affinity, right?Everybody knows what everybody's talking about. A lot of things get half-said or less, isn't it? And there's a certain fineness, isn't it? That comes with that kind of affinity. Of course, there is, and I'm not diminishing it at all. I'm just characterizing it as being of a certain frequency or calibre or charge. And the charge is that it trades on familiarity. It requires that. There's that kind of hospitality."Oh, sit wherever you want."Remember this one?[00:57:00]"We don't stand on ceremony here.""Oh, you're one of the family now." I just got here. What, what?But, of course, you can hear in the protestations the understanding, in that circumstance, that formality is an enemy to feeling good in this moment, isn't it? It feels stiff and starched and uncalled for or worse.It feels imported from elsewhere. It doesn't feel friendly. So, I'm giving you now beginnings of a differentiation between how cultures who really function as cultures understand what it means to be hospitable and what often prevails today, trading is a kind of low-grade warfare conducted against the strangeness of the stranger.The whole purpose of treating somebody like their family is to mitigate, and finally neutralize their [00:58:00] strangeness, so that for the purposes of the few hours in front of us all, there are no strangers here. Right? Okay.Then there's another kind, and intuitively you can feel what I'm saying. You've been there, you know exactly what I mean.There's another kind of circumstance where the etiquette that prevails is almost more emphatic, more tangible to you than the familiar one. That's the one where your mother or your weird aunt or whoever she might be, brings out certain kind of stuff that doesn't come out every day. And maybe you sit in a room that you don't often sit in. And maybe what gets cooked is stuff you haven't seen in a long time. And some part of you might be thinking, "What the hell is all this about?" And the answer is: it's about that guy in the [00:59:00] corner that you don't know.And your own ancestral culture told acres of stories whose central purpose was to convey to outsiders their understanding of what hospitality was. That is fundamentally what The Iliad and The Odyssey are often returning to and returning to and returning to.They even had a word for the ending of the formal hospitality that accrued, that arose around the care and treatment of strangers. It was called pomp or pompe, from which we get the word "pompous." And you think about what the word "pompous" means today.It means "nose in the air," doesn't it? Mm-hmm. It means "thinks really highly of oneself," isn't it? And it means "useless, encumbering, kind of [01:00:00] artificial kind of going through the motions stuff with a kind of aggrandizement for fun." That's what "pompous" means. Well, the people who gave us the word didn't mean that at all. This word was the word they used to describe the particular moment of hospitality when it was time for the stranger to leave.And when it was mutually acknowledged that the time for hospitality has come to an end, and the final act of hospitality is to accompany the stranger out of the house, out of the compound, out into the street, and provision them accordingly, and wish them well, and as is oftentimes practiced around here, standing in the street and waving them long after they disappear from view.This is pompous. This is what it actually means. Pretty frigging cool when you get corrected once in a while, isn't it? [01:01:00] Yeah.So, as I said, to be simplistic about it, there's at least a couple of kinds, and one of them treasures the advent of the stranger, understanding it to be the detonation point for the most elegant part of us to come forward.Now, those of us who don't come from such a place, we're just bamboozled and Shanghai'ed by the notion of formality, which we kind of eschew. You don't like formality when it comes to celebration, as if these two things are hostile, one to the other. But I'd like you to consider the real possibility that formality is grace under pressure, and that formality is there to give you a repertoire of response that rescues you from the gross limitations of your autobiography.[01:02:00]Next question. I mean, that's the beginning.Chris: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Thank you once again, Stephen. So alongside the term or concept of "pompe," in which the the guest or stranger was led out of the house or to the entrance of the village, there was also the consideration around the enforcement of hospitality, which you write about in the book. And you write that"the enforcement of hospitality runs the palpable risk of violating or undoing the cultural value it is there to advocate for. Forcing people to share their good fortune with the less fortunate stretches, to the point of undoing the generosity of spirit that the culture holds dear. Enforcement of hospitality is a sign of the eclipse of hospitality, typically spawned by insecurity, contracted self-definition, and the darkening of the [01:03:00] stranger at the door.Instead, such places and times are more likely to encourage the practice of hospitality in subtle generous ways, often by generously treating the ungenerous."And so there seems to be a need for limits placed on hospitality, in terms of the "pompe," the maximum three days in which a stranger can be given hospitality, and concurrently a need to resist enforcing hospitality. This seems like a kind of high-wire act that hospitable cultures have to balance in order to recognize and realize an honorable way of being with a stranger. And so I'm wondering if you could speak to the possibility of how these limits might be practiced without being enforced. What might that look like in a culture that engages with, with such limits, but without prohibitions?Stephen: Mm-hmm. That's a very good question. [01:04:00] Well, I think your previous question was what happened? I think, in a nutshell, and I didn't really answer that, so maybe see how I can use this question to answer the one that you asked before: what happened? So, there's no doubt in my mind that something happened that it's kind of demonstrable, if only with the benefit of hindsight.Audience: Right.Stephen: Or we can feel our way around the edges of the absence of the goneness of that thing that gives us some feel for the original shape of that thing.So you could say I'm trafficking in "ideals," here, and after a fashion, maybe, yeah. But the notion of "ideals," when it's used in this slanderous way suggests that "it was never like that."Chris: Mm-hmm.Stephen: And I suggest to you it's been like that in a lot of places, and there's a lot of places where it's still like that, although globalization [01:05:00] may be the coup de grâce performed upon this capacity. Okay. But anyway.Okay. So what happened? Well, you see in the circumstance that I described, apropos of the stranger, the stranger is in on it. The stranger's principle responsibility is to be the vector for this sort of grandiose generosity coming forward, and to experience that in a burdensome and unreciprocated fashion, until you realize that their willingness to do that is their reciprocity. Everybody doesn't get to do everything at once. You can't give and receive at the same time. You know what that's called? "Secret Santa at school," isn't it?That's where nobody owes nobody nothing at the end. That's what we're all after. I mean, one of your questions, you know, pointed to that, that there's a kind of, [01:06:00] what do you call that, teeter-totter balance between what people did for each other and what they received for each other. Right. And nobody feels slighted in any way, perfect balance, et cetera.Well, the circumstance here has nothing of the kind going with it. The circumstance we're describing now is one in which the hospitality is clearly unequal in terms of who's eating whose food, for example, in terms of the absolutely frustrated notion of reciprocity, that in fact you undo your end of the hospitality by trying to pay back, or give back, or pay at all, or break even, or not feel the burden of "God, you've been on the take for fricking hours here now." And if you really look in the face of the host, I mean, they're just getting started and you can't, you can't take it anymore.[01:07:00]So, one of the ways that we contend with this is through habits of speech. So, if somebody comes around with seconds. They say, "would you like a little more?"And you say, "I'm good. I'm good. I'm good." You see, "I'm good" is code for what? "F**k off." That's what it's code for. It's a little strong. It's a little strong. What I mean is, when "I'm good" comes to town, it means I don't need you and what you have. Good God, you're not there because you need it you knucklehead. You're there because they need it, because their culture needs an opportunity to remember itself. Right?Okay. So what happened? Because you're making it sound like a pretty good thing, really. Like who would say, "I think we've had enough of this hospitality thing, don't you? Let's try, oh, [01:08:00] keeping our s**t to ourselves. That sounds like a good alternative. Let's give it a week or two, see how it rolls." Never happened. Nobody decided to do this - this change, I don't think. I think the change happened, and sometime long after people realized that the change had had taken place. And it's very simple. The change, I think, went something like this.As long as the guest is in on it, there's a shared and mutually-held understanding that doesn't make them the same. It makes them to use the quote from the book "partners," okay, with different tasks to bring this thing to light, to make it so. What does that require? A mutually-held understanding in vivo as it's happening, what it is.Okay. [01:09:00] So, that the stranger who's not part of the host culture... sorry, let me say this differently.The culture of the stranger has made the culture of the host available to the stranger no matter how personally adept he or she may be at receiving. Did you follow that?Audience: A little.Stephen: Okay. Say it again?Audience: Yes, please.Stephen: Okay. The acculturation, the cultured sophistication of the stranger is at work in his or her strangerhood. Okay. He or she's not at home, but their cultural training helps them understand what their obligations are in terms of this arrangement we've been describing here.Okay, so I think the rupture takes place [01:10:00] when the culturation of one side or the other fails to make the other discernible to the one.One more time?When something happens whereby the acculturation of one of the partners makes the identity, the presence, and the valence of the other one untranslatable. Untranslatable.I could give you an example from what I call " the etiquette of trade," or the... what was the word? Not etiquette. What's the other word?Chris: The covenant?Stephen: Okay, " covenant of trade" we'll call it. So, imagine that people are sitting across from each other, two partners in a trade. Okay? [01:11:00] Imagine that they have one thing to sell or move or exchange and somebody has something else.How does this work? Not "what are the mechanics?" That can be another discussion, but, if this works, how does it work? Not "how does it happen?" How does it actually achieve what they're after? Maybe it's something like this.I have this pottery, and even though you're not a potter, but somebody in your extended family back home was, and you watched what they went through to make a fricking pot, okay?You watched how their hands seized up, because the clay leached all the moisture out of the hands. You distinctly remember that - how the old lady's hands looked cracked and worn, and so from the work of making vessels of hospitality, okay? [01:12:00] It doesn't matter that you didn't make it yourself. The point is you recognize in the item something we could call "cultural patrimony."You recognize the deep-runningness of the culture opposite you as manifest and embodied in this item for trade. Okay? So, the person doesn't have to "sell you" because your cultural sophistication makes this pot on the other side available to you for the deeply venerable thing that it is. Follow what I'm saying?Okay. So, you know what I'm gonna say next? When something happens, the items across from you cease to speak, cease to have their stories come along with them, cease to be available. There's something about your cultural atrophy that you project onto the [01:13:00] item that you don't recognize.You don't recognize it's valence, it's proprieties, it's value, it's deep-running worth and so on. Something happened, okay? And because you're not making your own stuff back home or any part of it. And so now, when you're in a circumstance like this and you're just trying to get this pot, but you know nothing about it, then the enterprise becomes, "Okay, so what do you have to part with to obtain the pot?"And the next thing is, you pretend you're not interested in obtaining the pot to obtain the pot. That becomes part of the deal. And then, the person on the making end feels the deep running slight of your disinterest, or your vague involvement in the proceedings, or maybe the worst: when it's not things you're going back and forth with, but there's a third thing called money, which nobody makes, [01:14:00] which you're not reminded of your grandma or anyone else's with the money. And then, money becomes the ghost of the original understanding of the cultural patrimony that sat between you. That's what happened, I'm fairly sure: the advent, the estrangement that comes with the stranger, instead of the opportunity to be your cultural best when the stranger comes.And then of course, it bleeds through all kinds of transactions beyond the "obvious material ones." So, it's a rupture in translatability, isn't it?Chris: You understand this to happen or have happened historically, culturally, et cetera, with matrimony as well?Stephen: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.Yeah. This is why, for example, things like the fetishization of virginity.Audience: Mm-hmm. [01:15:00]Stephen: I think it's traceable directly to what we're talking about. How so? Oh, this is a whole other long thing, but the very short version would be this.Do you really believe that through all of human history until the recent liberation, that people have forever fetishized the virginity of a young woman and jealously defended it, the "men" in particular, and that it became a commodity to trade back and forth in, and that it had to be prodded and poked at to determine its intactness? And this was deemed to be, you know, honourable behavior?Do you really think that's the people you come from, that they would've do that to the most cherished of their [01:16:00] own, barely pubescent girls? Come on now. I'm not saying it didn't happen and doesn't still happen. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, God almighty, something happened for that to be so.And I'm trying to allude to you now what I think took place. Then all of a sudden, the hymen takes the place of the pottery, doesn't it? And it becomes universally translatable. Doesn't it? It becomes a kind of a ghosted artifact of a culturally-intact time. It's as close as you can get.Hence, this allegation of its purity, or the association with purity, and so on. [01:17:00] I mean, there's lots to say, but that gives you a feel for what might have happened there.Chris: Thank you, Stephen. Thank you for being so generous with your considerations here.Stephen: You see why I had to write a book, eh?Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: There was too much bouncing around. Like I had to just keep track of my own thoughts on the matter.But can you imagine all of this at play in the year, oh, I don't know, 2022, trying to put into motion a redemptive passion play called "matrimony," with all of this at play? Not with all of this in my mind, but with all of this actually disfiguring the anticipation of the proceedings for the people who came.Can you imagine? Can you imagine trying to pull it off, and [01:18:00] contending overtly with all these things and trying to make room for them in a moment that's supposed to be allegedly - get ready for it - happy.I should have raised my rates on the first day, trying to pull that off.But anyway.Okay, you go now,Chris: Maybe now you'll have the opportunity.Stephen: No, man. No. I'm out of the running for that. "Pompe" has come and come and gone. Mm.Chris: So, in matrimony, Stephen, you write that"the brevity, the brevity of modern ceremonies is really there to make sure that nothing happens, nothing of substance, nothing of consequence, no alchemy, no mystery, no crazy other world stuff. That overreach there in its scripted heart tells me that deep in the rayon-wrapped bosom of that special day, the modern wedding is scared [01:19:00] silly of something happening. That's because it has an ages-old abandoned memory of a time when a wedding was a place where the Gods came around, where human testing and trying and making was at hand, when the dead lingered in the wings awaiting their turn to testify and inveigh."Gorgeous. Gorgeous.Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: And so I'm curious ifStephen: "Rayon-wrapped bosom." That's not, that's not shabby.Chris: "Rayon-wrapped bosom of that special day." Yeah.So, I'm curious do you think the more-than-human world practices matrimony, and if so, what, if anything, might you have learned about matrimony from the more-than-human world?Stephen: I would say the reverse. I would say, we practice the more-than-human world in matrimony, not that the more-than-human world practices matrimony. We practice them, [01:20:00] matrimonially.Next. Okay. Or no? I just gonna say that, that's pretty good.Well, where do we get our best stuff from? Let's just wonder that. Do we get our best stuff from being our best? Well, where does that come from? And this is a bit of a barbershop mirrors situation here, isn't it? To, to back, back, back, back.If you're thinking of time, you can kind of get lost in that generation before, or before, before, before. And it starts to sound like one of them biblical genealogies. But if you think of it as sort of the flash point of multiple presences, if you think of it that way, then you come to [01:21:00] credit the real possibility that your best stuff comes from you being remembered by those who came before you.Audience: Hmm.Stephen: Now just let that sit for a second, because what I just said is logically-incompatible.Okay? You're being remembered by people who came before you. That's not supposed to work. It doesn't work that way. Right?"Anticipated," maybe, but "remembered?" How? Well, if you credit the possibility of multiple beginnings, that's how. Okay. I'm saying that your best stuff, your best thoughts, not the most noble necessarily. I would mean the most timely, [01:22:00] the ones that seem most needed, suddenly.You could take credit and sure. Why, why not? Because ostensibly, it arrives here through you, but if you're frank with yourself, you know that you didn't do that on command, right? I mean, you could say, I just thought of it, but you know in your heart that it was thought of and came to you.I don't think there's any difference between saying that and saying you were thought of.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: So, that's what I think the rudiments of old-order matrimony are. They are old people and their benefactors in the food chain and spiritually speaking. Old people and their benefactors, the best part of them [01:23:00] willed to us, entrusted and willed to us. So, when you are willing to enter into the notion that old-order matrimony is older than you, older than your feelings for the other person, older than your love, and your commitment, and your willingness to make the vows and all that stuff, then you're crediting the possibility that your love is not the beginning of anything.You see. Your love is the advent of something, and I use that word deliberately in its Christian notion, right? It's the oncomingness, the eruption into the present day of something, which turns out to be hugely needed and deeply unsuspected at the same time.I used to ask in the school, "can you [01:24:00] have a memory of something you have no lived experience of?" I think that's what the best part of you is. I'm not saying the rest of you is shite. I'm not saying that. You could say that, but I am saying that when I say "the best part of you," that needs a lot of translating, doesn't it?But the gist of it is that the best part of you is entrusted to you. It's not your creation, it's your burden, your obligation, your best chance to get it right. And that's who we are to those who came before us. We are their chance to get it right, and matrimony is one of the places where you practice the gentle art of getting it right.[01:25:00] Another decent reason to write a book.Chris: So, gorgeous. Wow. Thank you Stephen. I might have one more question.Stephen: Okay. I might have one more answer. Let's see.Chris: Alright. Would I be able to ask if dear Nathalie Roy could join us up here alongside your good man.So, returning to Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work. On page 94, [01:26:00] Stephen, you write that"hospitality of the radical kind is

In Western culture, topics surrounding death and dying are often considered taboo and are generally avoided in everyday conversations. But this reluctance to fully acknowledge and integrate death as a natural part of the human experience has rendered us less able to cope with the end of life and less prepared to show up for ourselves and the people around us as we inevitably navigate loss. But what if a more skillful engagement with death and grief could actually offer us a more mindful approach to living? In this conversation, Nate is joined by Stephen Jenkinson, a cultural activist and author on the topic of grief, loss, and dying, to discuss his extensive work on grief literacy and the shortcomings of the dominant cultural attitudes towards death. Stephen reflects on his experiences as a palliative care counselor, offering insights on how to navigate the complexities of life and death, advocating for a more profound participation with grief. What if we viewed grief as a skill rather than an affliction? What opportunities and insights become available to us as we more deeply understand and accept death as a part of life? In what ways does modern culture's reliance on hope act as a distraction from facing reality – and how does this harm us towards the end of life?  (Conversation recorded on June 12th, 2025)   About Stephen Jenkinson: Stephen Jenkinson is a cultural activist and author on the topic of grief, loss, and dying. Along with his wife Nathalie Roy, Stephen co-founded the Orphan Wisdom School, where he writes and teaches about the skills of deep living, making human culture, and how to die and grieve well – skills he believes we have forgotten in our culture today. Stephen holds a master's degree in theological studies from Harvard and an additional master's degree in social work from the University of Toronto. Additionally, he served for years as the program director of a palliative-care center in a major Toronto teaching hospital, where he provided counseling at hundreds of deathbeds. He is the author of many books, including the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, as well as his upcoming book titled Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work.   Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube   Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.   ---   Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners

Stephen Jenkinson is a culture activist and ceremonialist advocating a handmade life and eloquence. He is an author, a storyteller, a musician, sculptor and off-grid organic farmer. He is the founder/ principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada, co-founded with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010. Also a sought-after workshop leader, articulating matters of the heart, human suffering, confusions through ceremony. He is the author of Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work (2025), Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), and the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015).  On this Episode: Stephen Jenkinson | @stephenjenkinsonofficial |  Adam Jackson | @adam___jackson Connect with Sacred Sons:  Start Here–Check In With Sacred Sons: Check-In Survey    Join The Circle Online Community: Join The Circle Join a Sacred Sons Event Near You: Event Calendar Sacred Sons Upcoming Events:   CONVERGENCE X: Across Nations   REMEMBRANCE II: Seeds of Change Shop: Sacred Sons Apparel & Cacao  Instagram: @sacredsons  Website: sacredsons.com   YouTube: Sacred Sons    Music: Ancient Future Want to become a Sponsor of Sacred Sons Podcast? Sponsorship Request Form 

It's not often I feel nervous. I worked for many years as a photographer and met people from every stratum of society, from the wealthy and famous to the outcast and downtrodden. One thing I learnt early on is that nerves resulted in bad imagery. So when it came time for this podcast with Stephen Jenkinson, a man whose work I've followed for nearly a decade, I was nervous. It's not that Stephen is difficult to talk to or combative; it's because Stephen is a master of the English language, and each word he uses is carefully chosen based on its etymology. He also doesn't let you get away with anything if he believes you've incorrectly identified something. My nerves quickly abaited once I felt Stephen's generosity of spirit.   This is one of the most meaningful conversations I've had. Stephen traverses: - What we have lost in our modern societies, if there is a way back, and if there were, to what we think we are to return to. - Death and our lack of education around the ultimate which every life faces. - What it truly means to cultivate a mindset that sees us creating genuine connections to one another to create communities that will benefit future generations. Most of all, Stephen reminded me that our lives are shaped by the questions we ask rather than the answers we seek—in his own words, "I'm far more in favour of the wonder of the question than the certainty of the answer." As the great poet E.E. Cummings phrased it, "Always the most beautiful answer to he who asks the most beautiful question." It was an honor to speak with Stephen, and I know you'll get something significant from his life-long pursuit of asking the most beautiful questions.  It was an honor to speak with Stephen, and I know you'll get something significant from his life-long pursuit of asking the most beautiful questions.    About Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW ~ Culture activist/ farmer/author ~ Stephen teaches internationally and has authored seven books of cultural critique. He is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010. The School's new project, The Scriptorium (2025), is creating an archive and library of his life's work. Apprenticed to a master storyteller as a young man, he worked extensively with dying people and their families. He is former programme director in a major Canadian hospital and former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. Stephen has Masters' degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). In 2023 Stephen received a Distinguished Alumni Honours Award from Harvard University for “helping people navigate grief, exploring the liminal space between life and death, and connecting humanity through ceremony and storytelling.” In August 2025, Sounds True will release Stephen's newest book: Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work.  He is also the author of Reckoning (co-written with Kimberly Ann Johnson in 2022), A Generation's Worth: Spirit Work While the Crisis Reigns (2021), Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Homecoming: The Haiku Sessions (a live teaching from 2013), How it All Could Be: A workbook for dying people and those who love them (2009), Angel and Executioner: Grief and the Love of Life (a live teaching from 2009), and Money and The Soul's Desires: A Meditation (2002). He was a contributing author to Palliative Care – Core Skills and Clinical Competencies (2007). Since co-founding the Nights of Grief and Mystery project with singer/ songwriter Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured this musical/ tent show revival/ storytelling/ ceremony of a show across North America, U.K., Ireland, Israel, Australia and New Zealand. They released their first Nights of Grief & Mystery album in 2017, and at the end of 2020 released two new records: Dark Roads and Rough Gods. A new album release is planned for 2025. Stephen Jenkinson is also the subject of the feature length documentary film Griefwalker (National Film Board of Canada, 2008, dir. Tim Wilson), a portrait of his work with dying people, and Lost Nation Road, a shorter documentary on the crafting of the Nights of Grief and Mystery tours (2019, dir. Ian Mackenzie). He was a stone sculptor turned wood-carver, and learned the arts of traditional birch bark canoe building. His first house won a Governor General's Award for architecture. He now lives on a small scale organic farm in an off-grid straw bale house. The 120 year old abandoned granary from across the river which appeared in Griefwalker was dismantled last year and re-erected at the Orphan Wisdom farm, where it is again a working barn.   Site https://orphanwisdom.com/   Events https://orphanwisdom.com/events-list/   Feelings with Strangers   Socials https://www.instagram.com/feelings.with.strangers/   YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@FeelingswithStrangers  

Welcome to the 8th House, Scorpio's lair, associated with Tarot minors 5-7 of Cups and its King. This fixed water sign shares ‘Spooky Season' with Halloween, Samhain, All Soul's, Dia De Los Muertes, and the thinning of the veil. Scorpio teaches that when we walk alongside fear, navigating our own darkest shadows, we discover an uncanny power to transcend the sharp pain of grief and loss, and move towards deeper connection with Spirit.'I'm the cobwebbed stairsthe ancient bonesI'm the shadow rippling cobblestonesI'm the stagnant swampthe black lagoonI'm the branches scratching at the moonI'm the funeral servicethe unknown mournerI'm the demon cowering in the cornerI'm the sexton's spadethe new thrown clayI'm what's left when they walk awayI'm the ebony coffinthe satin liningthe pale, thin lips in the back room dyingI'm the walking deadthe fly by nightI'm the last of the fading lightI'm the unbarred doorthe open encasementI'm the steps leading down to the basementI'm the four post bedthe let down hairI'm the cross that you forgot to wearI'm the highest voltagethe shining slabthe crack of midnight in the doctor's labI'm the night beforethe morning afterthe echoing of the baron's laughterI'm Jonathan HarkerI'm Lucy's trancethe elegant count's hypnotic glanceI'm the wooden malletthe sharpened stakeI'm the precautions you forgot to takeI'm the mummy's cursethe passing bellI'm the fortune they wouldn't tellI'm pyromania, TransylvaniaI'm out of breathI'm worse than deathI'm the late night airexhilaratingI'm with you in the darkness, waiting'Silent Scream, T.S.O.L.*Episode Art: Guardian of the Night Tarot, Supra Oracle, Mary-El TarotAcknowledgments & Mentions: Aliya & Madeline; Faith, Hope & Carnage, Nick Cave; Die Wise: A Manifesto of Sanity & Soul, Stephen Jenkinson; 36 Secrets, T. Susan Chang; Pholarcos Tarot, Carmen Sorrenti; Blood Moon Tarot, Sam Guay; Dust II Onyx: A Melanated Tarot, Courtney Alexander; Wildwood Tarot; Otherkins Tarot, Siolo Thompson; The Crone & Dark Goddess Tarots, Ellen Lorenzi-Prince; The Carnival at the End of The World Tarot; Mary-El Tarot, Mary White; Blank Ink Tarot, Evvin Marin; Ghosts & Spirits Tarot, Lisa Hunt; Medicine Woman Tarot, Carol BridgesDisclaimer: Passages may be truncated or modified.8th House Healers Podcast is Eliza Harris and Sarah Cole-McCarthy. All rights reserved. Find us on Instagram and Eliza's Tarot in her Etsy shop. We'd love to hear from you! Send your questions, comments & suggestions to us at: 8thhousehealers@gmail.com. Podcast cover photography, ‘The Lovers', by Eliza/Esmerlize (esmerlize.com). Original podcast theme music, ‘Languid Stars', by Dylan McCarthy (dylanmccarthymusic.com).Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/8th-house-healers. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Enjoy this deep and soulful conversation with “The Griefwalker” Stephen Jenkinson. My guest Stephen Jenkinson is the author of the award-winning book Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul and the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School. He discusses the Nights of Grief and Mystery project, which he created with singer/songwriter… Continue reading Ep. 440 Nights of Grief and Mystery with Stephen Jenkinson

In this episode, we share the profound work of Stephen Jenkinson, an internationally renowned teacher and author of Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul and Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble. Stephen shares his experiences working with dying people and their families as a former program director in a Canadian hospital, shedding light on the brokenness of our modern Western approach to death and end of life care. He challenges the prevailing death phobia in our society and explores the importance of embracing the reality of dying in order to live more fully. Through his thought-provoking insights, Stephen invites us to reconsider our understanding of aging, what it means to be an elder and the fears we face about our changing modern world.Stephen also shares his insights on spirituality and the blurred lines between a spiritual life and a regular life, the challenges faced by both the oldest and youngest generations in a rapidly changing world and the importance of understanding our past and the potential consequences of our actions on future generations. Tune in for a deep and introspective conversation that will leave you questioning your role in shaping the world around you and your impulse for “answers” in light of the realities of our times…

“We're not trying to be right. We're trying to see if we can see clearly.” In this agile and authentic episode, returning guest Stephen Jenkinson offers a lucid view of the world. How might our understanding of the world change if we approached life with a willingness to see things as they are rather than a need to only affirm that which we desire? Ayana and Stephen journey together to consider what had brought us to this modern time – prompting vital questions about the value of tradition, the importance of strangerhood, the possibility of reckoning, and the meaning of ancestry. Stephen asks questions that disrupt and unsettle the status quo, and perhaps these questions will lead us to the lessons we so deeply need. STEPHEN JENKINSON, MTS, MSW is an author, culture activist, ceremonialist and farmer. He teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010. With Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work), he has worked extensively with dying people and their families, is a former programme director in a major Canadian hospital and former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. He is the author of several books including 'Reckoning', 'A Generation's Worth', 'Come of Age', 'Money & the Soul's Desires' and the award-winning 'Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul'. Stephen is the subject of the National Film Board of Canada documentary 'Griefwalker', and 'Lost Nation Road', a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the wheelhouse of a mystery train. Nights of Grief and Mystery world tours, with singer/ songwriter Gregory Hoskins, are odes to wonder, love letters for the willingness to know endings. Music by Nights of Grief and Mystery. Visit our website at forthewild.world for the full episode description, references, and action points.Support the show

Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW, is a spiritual activist, author, ceremonialist and farmer. Stephen teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010. With Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work), he is the author of several books including the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble and A Generation's Worth. Stephen is the subject of the National Film Board of Canada feature length film documentary, Griefwalker. http://orphanwisdom.com RUNE HJARNO Rune Hjarnø Rasmussen is a Historian of Religion, Ph.d from Uppsala University in Sweden. His research into Afro-diasporic strategies for maintaining animist reality in the modern world has lead him towards reading North European cultural history from the perspective of rejected animist knowledge and practice. The objective is to recover Euro-traditional forms of land-connectedness ecological knowledge and kinship with the greater community of beings. Rune has lived in a number of countries in Europe, Africa North- and South America and presently runs the platform “Nordic Animism.” https://nordicanimism.com/

This conversation blew my mind. It's one of the deepest, poetic and most profound conversations I've had in many years. A must listen to episode. This episode is not just about dying but about LIVING Today we're joined by Stephen Jenkinson, an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada and the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life. In this episode we discuss:  Spiritual/wellness industry and death Self healing or healing in community? How to navigate living & death Living well so you die well. Our collective Echo chamber and how it impacts us Cancel culture Story telling & creativity to process endings What has Stephen's work taught him about himself Ways to Connect Stephen GET “NIGHTS OF GRIEF & MYSTERY” TOUR TICKETS- HERE Website- HERE Ways to connect with NATALIE Carry on the conversation on Substack Visit - www.natalie-miles.com for all her offerings and services. Including mediumship and psychic reading sessions Instagram - Follow Natalie Instagram- Follow Things That Die Credits Podcast Music: “Things That Die” by Baljit Rayat Editing - Kelly Whinnem

In this episode, guest host and podcast producer Jackson Kroopf interviews Kimberly and Stephen Jenkinson about their ongoing event series Reckoning: Birth and Death Among Us. They discuss the role of witness in their work as birth and death workers, the politics of feelings in a culture where pop psychology has become a religion, and dive deeply into their relationship to matrimony. In anticipation of their final event this summer, “Reckon and Wonder: Grief, Elderhood and Spirit Work,” taking place this June 29th-July 2nd, 2023 at the Orphan Wisdom school in Ontario, they reflect on the difference between recording and live events and the unique impact that their convergence has revealed in their respective relationships to the oral tradition.   What You'll Here Reflections on witness from retired birth and death workers The value of disillusionment The power of loneliness The proliferation of self pathologizing The complex politics of feelings The religion of western psychology Adolescents grabbing for pop psychology labels The respect in not offering solutions The eagerness to escape from pain while grieving Is love dead? Blessing not as approval but the emergence of something new Marriage as both celebration and loss Matrimony between cultures An only child and single parent inviting in a new husband Building an escape route as you enter a union The no-go zone of contemporary western marriage 15 minute weddings, 15 minute funerals, 15 minute births The cultural casualties of uniformity Being healthy enough to tend to home and neighbor   Bio Stephen Jenkinson is a cultural worker, teacher, author, musician and ceremonialist. He is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010 with his wife Nathalie Roy. He has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). Since co-founding the Nights of Grief and Mystery project with singer/ songwriter Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured this musical / tent show revival / storytelling ceremony across North America, U.K. and Europe and Australia and New Zealand. They released their Nights of Grief & Mystery album in 2017 and at the end of 2020, they released two new records; Dark Roads and Rough Gods. Stephen is the author of Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Homecoming: The Haiku Sessions (a live teaching from 2013), How it All Could Be: A workbook for dying people and those who love them (2009), Angel and Executioner: Grief and the Love of Life – (a live teaching from 2009), and Money and The Soul's Desires: A Meditation (2002). Most recently, Stephen published Reckoning (2022) with Kimberly Ann Johnson.   Links Reckon & Wonder: Grief, Elderhood, Spirit Work ~ A weekend at Orphan Wisdom, Ontario  

Stephen Jenkinson is a Canadian writer, teacher and grief literacy advocate. He's the author of Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul. He is one of my favorite authors and Die Wise has been so helpful for me. In this episode we discuss my recent experience with death; when my friend Erik died in an avalanche while we were skiing together. I use this time with Stephen in an attempt to be seen and heard, to learn, to share, to heal, to grieve. It was amazing and I hope you enjoy listening in on it. Thank you Stephen, for your time and inquiry and insight. Follow Stephen's work by visiting his website https://orphanwisdom.com Ari's Coaching Page - FREE INTRO CALL https://ariintheair.com/coaching/ Follow me on instagram! https://www.instagram.com/ariintheair Support this channel! $5/Month! Get FREE PARAGLIDE COACHING! https://www.patreon.com/ariintheair 15% OFF QUALIA NOOTROPICS https://neurohacker.com/shop/qualia-mind?rfsn=6736291.51bd0fe Code: ARI (good for 15% off any purchase)

What constitutes dying well in a death-phobic culture? Stephen Jenkinson points out that life is a time-limited offer and our “obligation is to obey. Obey doesn't mean submit; obey means attend to. What is this asking of me now?” There is much to ponder in this dialogue, whether or not you are actively dying. Stephen Jenkinson is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He has a master's degree in theology from Harvard University and a master's degree in social work. He was formerly a program director at a major Canadian hospital and medical-school assistant professor. He has worked extensively with dying people and their families and is a consultant to palliative care and hospice organizations. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada and is the subject of the documentary film, Griefwalker. Heis the author of Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (North Atlantic Books 2015)Date: 3/14/2016 Tags: Stephen Jenkinson, med-tech, death-phobic, death centered care for the dying, euthanasia, failure to thrive, death-phobic culture, Michael Toms dying, the death trade, palliative care, the angel of death, heartbrokenness, sorrow, grief, love, solitude, Brother Blue, Hugh Hill, prayer, Death & Dying, Personal Transformation, Philosophy

Join me for a  fascinating interview with Barbara Slaine.  We dive deep into a topic that is often considered taboo:  death & dying.  Barbara shares her years of experience as an end-of-life doula, guiding individuals and families through this process.  She also touches upon her documentary film project - tracking the impact of training incarcerated and previously incarcerated individuals to care for their fellow inmates as they make their final transition.   Barbara wows us with the resources at her fingertips: New Realities  with Alan Steinfelt on Apple Podcasts.  Barbara's documentary film project, tentatively titled A Ripple Effect.  Dr. Joseph Sacco, MD, Hospice & Palliative Medicine.  Book, Die Wise:  A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul by Stephen Jenkinson and Dr. Martin Shaw.  Florence Walt, the founder of Hospice UK.Fleet Maull who runs the National Prison Hospital Association.The idea that she should consider writing the book, Death for Dummies.  The end-of-life doula course she runs at her center, liphebalancecenter.com.  The work of Henry Ferako-Weiss, who is an end-of-life doula and a mentor.Book, Dying to be Me, My Journey from Cancer to Near Death to True Healing by Anita Moorjani.  The concept of how death teaches us to embrace more being, less doing.  Realization of how interacting with death in a real way is currently in the zeitgeist.  Barbara attributes this to the pandemic - a call to many to wake up to nature of reality.  Barbara:  "We want real and death is real."Book, How we Live is How we Die by Pema Chodren.  The Zen Hospice Caregiving Project in California.  Find Barbara:  liphebalancecenter.com

New Lessons on Dealing with Grief in a Me-First Era with Stephen Jenkinson, Canadian writer, teacher and grief literacy advocate. Stephen is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada and the author of several books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, an award-winning book about grief and dying and the great love of life. [https://orphanwisdom.com

Stephen Jenkinson is an author, storyteller, musician, and cultural activist. He is best known for his books Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, and Come of Age: A Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble. He founded the Orphan Wisdom School, located outside Ottowa, in Canada.Outline00:00 - 02:19 — Episode introduction02:19 - 08:48 — Broadening our understanding of ancestry08:48 - 18:33 — Culture, limits, and the extension of the human will18:33 - 22:45 — Entitlement and privilege22:45 - 29:44 — The cultural poverty behind white supremacy29:44 - 40:53 — Education, learning, and ambivalence40:53 - 54:49 — Getting older versus becoming an elder54:49 - 58:15 — Episode wrap-upLinks and ResourcesOrphan Wisdom SchoolDie Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and SoulCome of Age: A Case for Elderhood in a Time of TroubleQuillwood AcademyTelling Tales of ChangeSupport the show

Join Banyen Books & Sound in conversation with Stephen Jenkinson and Kimberly Ann Johnson on their forthcoming co-written book, Reckoning. Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW, is a spiritual activist, author, ceremonialist and farmer. Stephen teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010. With Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work), he is the author of several books including the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble and A Generation's Worth. Stephen is the subject of the National Film Board of Canada feature length film documentary, Griefwalker. Kimberly Ann Johnson is a Sexological Bodyworker, Somatic Experiencing trauma resolution practitioner, birth doula, and single mom. She specializes in helping women prepare for birth, recover from birth injuries and birth trauma, and heal from sexual trauma. She is the founder of Magamama.com, an international holistic women's health care resource for expectant and new mothers. She is the author of The Fourth Trimester and Call of the Wild.

Sounds of SAND presents an in-depth and provocative conversation from Science and Nonduality's “Death and Dying” online summit. A long-time friend of SAND Stephen Jenkinson offers a frank dialog with SAND co-founders Zaya and Maurizio Benazzo. This conversation took place during the first months of COVID which you'll hear Stephen talk about as “the plague” they also touch upon: the meaning of death and dying in a death-phobic culture the idea of death as a god the differences between death culture in North America and Europe and other cultures Stephen's perspectives on Euthanasia. plus some original music from Stephen and Gregory Hoskins at the end of the episode! Stephen Jenkinson is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He's the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada, and the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying and the great love of life. And stick around until the end of the podcast to hear a spoken word musical collaboration from Stephen and Gregory Hoskins from their Nights of Grief and Mystery project. orphanwisdom.com Zaya and Maurizio Benazzo are the co-founders and directors of SAND and their many offerings, events, and films. Their latest film is The Wisdom of Trauma which has been viewed by over six million people in 230 countries around the world. https://scienceandnonduality.com

Join this live conversation around the new book 'Reckonin' with Stephen Jenkinson and Kimberly Johnson. Find the book here https://orphanwisdom.com/reckoning Reckoning is an unguarded, sober meeting with Spirit Work, Conspiracies, Elderhood, Grief and Plague and Building Culture in a Me First Era. Try this at home. With Companions. Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW, is a spiritual activist, author, ceremonialist and farmer. Stephen teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010. With Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work), he is the author of several books including the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble and A Generation's Worth. Stephen is the subject of the National Film Board of Canada feature length film documentary, Griefwalker. Kimberly Ann Johnson is a Sexological Bodyworker, Somatic Experiencing trauma resolution practitioner, birth doula, and single mom. She specializes in helping women prepare for birth, recover from birth injuries and birth trauma, and heal from sexual trauma. She is the founder of Magamama.com, an international holistic women's health care resource for expectant and new mothers. She is the author of The Fourth Trimester and Call of the Wild.

Stephen is a living legend. He is the author of one of my favorite books "Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul". He also recently co-authored a book with Kimberly Ann Johnson titled "Reckoning". Stephen started his career as a palliative care social worker in "the death trade", which, in short, is the over-medicalized, over-pathologized process of dying in the West. In this episode, we dive deep into birth and death, particularly when the two occur in the same breath. Death of children is confronting, and in our society, "kids aren't supposed to die". But what if they do die? Who has the language and courage to hold space for their grieving parents? This task has been vested to medical professionals, but we are just as incompetent in talking about death as anybody else. Instead, we resort to platitude and dangle carrots of hope that perhaps a dying child is merely an illusion. This conversation is powerful...and it was an honor to have Stephen on the show. Made possible by: Fit for Birth - 20% off pregnancy- and postpartum-specific exercise and nutrition coaching (or courses to become a better coach yourself!) Organifi - 20% the healthiest protein powder available, all plant-based, non-GMO, organic, glyphosate-free...you get it... BiOptimizers - 10% off Mag Breakthrough plus free gut health goodies! [00:14:00] euphemisms and death You don't “pass away”. You “die”. Health care professionals at expected to be good at talking about mortality without having any training in the language Nobody is READY to talk about their own death; in some ways, you must force them to confront it [00:25:00] The story of a birth and death coincident It's our job to give a patient persmision to talk about death and dying The “Book of Supposed To” guides our confrontation with death “Kids aren't supposed to die” appears in this book Not “living a long” or “full” life is inconceivable What happens to us as we grow up that we lose track of our mortality? Lose the notion of a truly full life? [00:38:00] just because we can extend life, does this mean that we should? citizenShip malpractice COVID-19 was a God It provided an opportunity, and we missed out Because we all didn't die, does that mean that we won? COVID required us to aim our middle sunward, but we instead aimed our missions outward [00:54:00] humane versus human humans haven't been a “part of nature” for a long time Stephen is often accused of being “anti-medicine” The cost of everything we do to avoid mortality is incalculable Gregory Hoskins Band (stay tuned to the very end of the episode to hear one of Stephen's songs...) Catch Stephen on tour with Gregory Hoskins Buy Stephen's books Stephen's website Find me on Instagram @nathanrileyobgyn and my practice at: www.BelovedHolistics.com Music by: Labrinth and Preservation Hall Jazz Band --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theholisticobgyn/message

Sophie Strand: writer and academic cross-contaminator: on the ways we can improvise in academia and beyond. Sophie Strand is a writer based in the Hudson Valley who focuses on the intersection of spirituality, storytelling, and ecology. But it would probably be more authentic to call her a neo-troubadour animist with a propensity to spin yarns that inevitably turn into love stories. Her first book of essays The Flowering Wand: Lunar Kings, Lichenized Lovers, Transpecies Magicians, and Rhizomatic Harpists Heal the Masculine is forthcoming in 2022 from Inner Traditions. Her eco-feminist historical fiction reimagining of the gospels The Madonna Secret will also be published by Inner Traditions. Her books of poetry include Love Song to a Blue God (Oread Press) and Those Other Flowers to Come (Dancing Girl Press) and The Approach (The Swan). Her poems and essays have been published by Art PAPERS, The Dark Mountain Project, Poetry.org, Unearthed, Braided Way, Creatrix, Your Impossible Voice, The Doris, Persephone's Daughters, and Entropy. She has recently finished a work of historical fiction, The Madonna Secret, that offers an eco-feminist revision of the gospels.  She is currently researching her next epic, a mythopoetic exploration of ecology and queerness in the medieval legend of Tristan and Isolde. Today we speak about the importance of listening to one's body and its unexpected ways to bring out intellectual results and eventually new academic fruits. For Sophie, storytelling was a way out of trauma and around pain and then became her academic method allowing to border-cross paradigms and fuse ideas. We ask how to create safety in these subversive spaces? And how to confront the reactions of disapproval and discontent? Sophie leads us through her story of following that sensory vein and shares the ways that could work for others as eager to improvise. Listen to the episode to reflect on our intellectual editing processes together.   (TW: this conversation touches on trauma and mental health).   Mentioned in Podcast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Rice (Anne Rice) https://www.bayoakomolafe.net/about (Bayo Akomolafe) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_and_Danger (Purity and Danger: An Analysis of Concepts of Pollution and Taboo) by Mary Douglas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Weber_(writer) (Andreas Weber) https://orphanwisdom.com/die-wise/ (Die Wise – A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul) by Stephen Jenkinson Social media: https://sophiestrand.com/ (Sophie) https://sophiestrand.com/ (Strand)

Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Ontario, Canada and the author of six books, including Reckoning, co-authored by Kimberly Johnson and Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life. In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. Get his new book today by visiting: RECKONING ON THIS EPISODE: Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW | Orphan Wisdom Adam Jackson | @adam___jackson   SACRED SONS TRAININGS & EVENTS: CONVERGENCE 7 - GENERATIONS | OCTOBER 13 - 16 | CANTON, NC | Convergence 7 is the inter-generational bridge between the youth and the elders of our world. We implore you to reach out your hand and invite the generations in your life to connect, confront, and celebrate life alongside you this fall. All stages of manhood will be represented at Convergence 7 from youth to elder. EMX ARIZONA | SEP 8 - 11 | SKULL VALLEY, AZ | The Embodied Masculine Experience is a 40 man initiatory event. Join us in Skull Valley, AZ for 4 days of Connection, Confrontation, and Celebration with Sacred Sons regional Leadership.  EMX COLORADO | SEP 15 - 18 | WARD, CO | The Embodied Masculine Experience is a 40 man initiatory event. Join us in Skull Valley, AZ for 4 days of Connection, Confrontation, and Celebration with Sacred Sons regional Leadership.  CONNECT: Shop | Sacred Sons Apparel & Merch Website | sacredsons.com   YouTube | Sacred Sons   Instagram | @sacredsons   Events Calendar | All upcoming Sacred Sons Trainings and Experiences! 

In this episode I share some of my random thoughts on 'things' of the moment, read from the book Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, by Mr. Stephen Jenkinson, and I sing my song Step Out of Time (from my soon to be released new album Trim Tab). Thanks for stopping by, I appreciate YOU! Peace & Love, Stone --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/stonepetoskey/message

Encountering the presence of grief and mystery is a common experience we have in our lives. As we continue from last week's podcast episode, we hear more about the finality of death, grief, and mystery. Stephen also shares with us his wisdom and experiences with regard to children and generational transmission. Join us in this episode as we acquire a deeper understanding of the different concepts surrounding death and life. ❂ About our special guest: Stephen is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded the school with his wife Nathalie Roy. He is the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying and the great love of life. Guest's website:  https://orphanwisdom.com

Encountering the presence of grief and mystery in life is not something out of the ordinary. These are things that occur naturally, as well as the stories of the love of life and grief. In this new podcast episode, Stephen Jenkinson shares with us his encounter with children and delivers the news of death to them. He also shares with us knowledge and wisdom about his discipline. ❂ About our special guest: Stephen is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded the school with his wife Nathalie Roy. He is the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying and the great love of life. Guest's website:  https://orphanwisdom.com

Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Ontario, Canada, and the author of five books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life. In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. On this Episode: Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW | Orphan Wisdom  Adam Jackson | @adam___jackson   THE BROTHERSHIP: Online Community and Mobile App | Experience online men's councils and workshops as well as weekly master classes led by Sacred Sons Facilitators. Join for 2 Weeks FREE Now! TRAININGS & EVENTS: WILD RITES | COCHISE, AZ | APR 23 - MAY 1 | An opportunity to personally and collectively engage with the reciprocity between humans and nature. It brings forth relationships that have been dormant within the terrain of soul and the natural world. Marked by three distinct phases, the innate intelligence of the vision quest brings you through a cycle of life, death, and rebirth. EMX | UTAH | APR 28 - MAY 1 | The Embodied Masculine Experience is a 40 man initiatory event. Join us in Oakley, UT for 4 days of Connection, Confrontation, and Celebration with Sacred Sons regional Leadership. EMX | SOUTHEAST | MAY 19 - 22 | The Embodied Masculine Experience is a 40 man initiatory event. Join us in Westminster, SC for 4 days of Connection, Confrontation, and Celebration with Sacred Sons regional Leadership. EMX | OREGON| MAY 26 - 29 | The Embodied Masculine Experience is a 40 man initiatory event. Join us in Dufur, OR for 4 days of Connection, Confrontation, and Celebration with Sacred Sons regional Leadership. EMX | AUSTIN | JUNE 9 - 12 | The Embodied Masculine Experience is a 40 man initiatory event. Join us in Austin, TX for 4 days of Connection, Confrontation, and Celebration with Sacred Sons regional Leadership. CONNECT: Shop | Sacred Sons Apparel & Merch Website | sacredsons.com   YouTube | Sacred Sons   Instagram | @sacredsons   Events Calendar | All upcoming Sacred Sons Trainings and Experiences! 

I've been running ManTalks for almost a decade and I've met a ton of amazing people who can speak truthfully and bluntly. But no one speaks carries their truth as authentically as Stephen Jenkinson. I find a lot of what Stephen says is medicinal: you might not think it tastes great, but damn if it isn't what you need to hear. This is a deep dive into why things are the way they are. Fear of submission, love of consumption, death-phobia, the commodification of trauma, endings, what the pandemic tried to tell us, and so much more. This is from a series I produced recently called The Wisdom of Elders, featuring experts on elderhood and culture to discuss what an “elder” actually is, where we are as a species, how we got here, and where we're headed. Basically, what the f*** happened? Culture activist, teacher, and author, Stephen Jenkinson teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded with Nathalie Roy in 2010, convening semi-annually in Ontario, and in northern Europe. He has a Masters degree in Theology from Harvard University and a Masters in Social Work from the University of Toronto. Apprenticed to a master storyteller when a young man, he has worked extensively with dying people and their families, was a program director in a major hospital, and an assistant professor in a prominent medical school. He is also a sculptor and traditional canoe builder, whose house won a Governor General's Award for architecture. Since co-founding Nights of Grief and Mystery with Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured across North America, the U.K., Europe, Australia, and New Zealand.     His new book, A Generation's Worth: Spirit Work While the Crisis Reigns, sets out to learn liveable answers. Dying and death, love and matrimony, money and soul, aging and elderhood, drawn through the eye of a pestilential needle: this is the spirit work, and that is the crisis. https://orphanwisdom.com/a-generations-worth-spirit-work-while-the-crisis-reigns He is also the author of Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble, the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, Homecoming: The Haiku Sessions, How it All Could Be: A Workbook for Dying People and Those Who Love Them (2009), Angel and Executioner: Grief and the Love of Life (a live teaching from 2009), and Money and The Soul's Desires: A Meditation. He is contributing author to Palliative Care – Core Skills and Clinical Competencies. Stephen Jenkinson is also the subject of the feature-length documentary film Griefwalker, a portrait of his work with dying people, and Lost Nation Road, a shorter documentary on the crafting of the Nights of Grief and Mystery tours. Connect with Stephen: -Website: https://orphanwisdom.com -Latest book: https://orphanwisdom.com/a-generations-worth-spirit-work-while-the-crisis-reigns -Books: https://orphanwisdom.com/shop/ -Griefwalker documentary: https://www.nfb.ca/film/griefwalker/ Did you enjoy the podcast? If so, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or Podchaser. It helps us get into the ears of new listeners, expand the ManTalks Community, and help others find the self-leadership they're looking for. Are you looking to find purpose, navigate transition, or fix your relationships, all with a powerful group of men from around the world? Check out The Alliance and join me today.  Check out our Facebook Page or the Men's community. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts  | Spotify For more episodes visit us at ManTalks.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On this episode, our guest is Stephen Jenkinson, activist, teacher, author, and farmer. In the second part of our conversation, we explore the themes of tourism as the trauma of homeless people. Rights are discussed in contrast to responsibilities. Stephen takes us on a deep dive into how the idea of the stranger or foreigner came to be, principally through travel and trade and what this all might offer us in our time. Finally, we contend with the notion that the only responsible way of being a tourist is to stop being one, is to stay home and honour the place one lives in. Stephen has masters' degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada and the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life. In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. With a 5-piece band, they have mounted international tours and released three albums, the most recent of which are "Dark Roads" and "Rough Gods." I first encountered Stephen in 2014 at a chocolate shop in Toronto. In the midst of a life-changing, 3 hour-long story, he whispered to us, that “in this place, they eat teachers.” Later on, digesting the fact that I was, very much, one of the hungry, I decided to join his teaching school in the Ottawa Valley. Since then, Stephen has travelled here, to Oaxaca, Mexico, mostly as a “pulmonary refugee,” as he refers to it. Alongside his wife Nathalie and others, I have been witness and accomplice to much of their co-conspiracy, here. Over the years, many of those conversations revolved around tourism, exile, and radical hospitality, which are the themes of these two episodes. Part 2 is entitled “Trauma Intelligence, the Stranger, and Radical Hospitality.” Throughout the episodes you will hear what are cicadas, emerging after a 17 year underworld life to die. Their songs, as I've heard it said here in Oaxaca, are prayers to local Gods, asking for rain to once more kiss the parched soils of this place. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Orphan Wisdom School: https://orphanwisdom.com/school/ Stephen's Books: https://orphanwisdom.com/books/ Nights of Grief and Mystery: https://gregoryhoskins.bandcamp.com/album/nights-of-grief-and-mystery ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover more episodes and join the conversation: http://www.theendoftourism.com Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter @theendoftourism Join the Conspiracy! Support us via Patreon @ https://www.patreon.com/theendoftourism

Culture activist, teacher, and author, Stephen Jenkinson teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded with Nathalie Roy in 2010, convening semi-annually in Ontario, and in northern Europe. He has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). Apprenticed to a master storyteller when a young man, he has worked extensively with dying people and their families, was a program director in a major hospital, and an assistant professor in a prominent medical school. He is also a sculptor, traditional canoe builder whose house won a Governor General's Award for architecture. Since co-founding Nights of Grief and Mystery with Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured across North America, the U.K., Europe, Australia, and New Zealand. His new book, A Generation's Worth: Spirit work while the crisis reigns, sets out to learn liveable answers. Dying and death, love and matrimony, money and soul, aging and elderhood, drawn through the eye of a pestilential needle: this is the spirit work, and that is the crisis: https://orphanwisdom.com/a-generations-worth-spirit-work-while-the-crisis-reigns He is the author of Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Homecoming: The Haiku Sessions (a live teaching from 2013), How it All Could Be: A workbook for dying people and those who love them (2009), Angel and Executioner: Grief and the Love of Life – (a live teaching from 2009), and Money and The Soul's Desires: A Meditation (2002). He is contributing author to Palliative Care – Core Skills and Clinical Competencies (2007). Stephen Jenkinson is also the subject of the feature-length documentary film Griefwalker (National Film Board of Canada, 2008, dir. Tim Wilson), a portrait of his work with dying people, and Lost Nation Road, a shorter documentary on the crafting of the Nights of Grief and Mystery tours (2019, dir. Ian Mackenzie). His books, recordings, and DVDs are available for purchase at the Orphan Wisdom Shop: https://orphanwisdom.com Watch the Lost Nation Road documentary here: https://orphanwisdom.com/lost-nation-road _______________________________________ To check out CURED nutrition and their various wonderful CBD products, click here: https://bit.ly/3hVQivi. Use the code LOVEBOMBS at checkout, and you will save an extra 10% and get FREE shipping. I use it every day and cannot recommend it more highly. They're fantastic (especially the ZEN pills)! Seriously. SO GOOD. _______________________________________ Follow me on Instagram @LongDistanceLoveBombs: https://www.instagram.com/longdistancelovebombs Looking for a heartfelt gift? Visit my print shop here: https://www.longdistancelovebombs.com/theshop Sign up for my weekly newsletter! Click here: http://eepurl.com/T0l91. It's easy and takes five seconds. Check out a list of my favorite books here: https://www.amazon.com/shop/longdistancelovebombs --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/longdistancelovebombs/message

Stephen Jenkinson shares wisdom from his new book, A Generation's Worth: Spirit work while the crisis reigns. In this conversation, Stephen Jenkinson addresses questions about vaccines, mass hysteria and conspiracy thinking, ecology, aging and elderhood, hope and being hope free, and more. Stephen Jenkinson has described A Generation's Worth as "something of a plague document... dispatches from the front lines of a strange occupation undeclared." What does a life's work mean in a time of undoing? A Generation's Worth sets out to learn liveable answers. Dying and death, love and matrimony, money and soul, aging and elderhood, drawn through the eye of a pestilential needle: this is the spirit work, and that is the crisis. Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW is a spiritual activist, author, ceremonialist and farmer. Stephen teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010. With Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work), he is the author of several books including the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul and Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble. Stephen is the subject of the National Film Board of Canada feature length film documentary, Griefwalker.

On this episode, our guest today is Stephen Jenkinson, activist, teacher, author, and farmer. In this conversation, we explore the themes of weekend warrior tourism, the so-called freedom to travel, and the abandonment of place that tourist towns endure. Tourism has a particular history, and we discuss the idea of modern tourism as a cultural grandchild of European immigration to the Americas. Stephen explains what it means to be indigenous, what tourism does to that capacity, and what we might do about it. Stephen Jenkinson has masters' degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada and the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life. In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. With a 5-piece band, they have mounted international tours and released three albums, the most recent of which are "Dark Roads" and "Rough Gods." I first encountered Stephen in 2014 at a chocolate shop in Toronto. In the midst of a life-changing, 3 hour-long story, he whispered to us, that “in this place, they eat teachers.” Later on, digesting the fact that I was, very much, one of the hungry, I decided to join his teaching school in the Ottawa Valley. Since then, Stephen has travelled here, to Oaxaca, Mexico, mostly as a “pulmonary refugee,” as he refers to it. Alongside his wife Nathalie and others, I have been witness and accomplice to much of their co-conspiracy, here. Over the years, many of those conversations revolved around tourism, exile, and radical hospitality, which are the themes of these two episodes. Part 1 is entitled, “Immigration and Cultural Homelessness” Today , I am honoured to introduce Stephen Jenkinson: Throughout the episodes you will hear what are cicadas, emerging after a 17 year underworld life to die. Their songs, as I've heard it said here in Oaxaca, are prayers to local Gods, asking for rain to once more kiss the parched soils of this place. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Orphan Wisdom School: https://orphanwisdom.com/school/ Stephen's Books: https://orphanwisdom.com/books/ Nights of Grief and Mystery: https://gregoryhoskins.bandcamp.com/album/nights-of-grief-and-mystery ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover more episodes and join the conversation: http://www.theendoftourism.com Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter @theendoftourism Join the Conspiracy! Support us via Patreon @ https://www.patreon.com/theendoftourism

“As the heart revives, many people find a new life beneath their sorrow.” ~ Stephen Levine Guest Introduction:  I'm Cindy MacMillan, and welcome to Exploring the Seasons of Life. You're listening to episode 75. This is a podcast about beginnings, endings and the messy bits in-between. Self-love, well-being, and mindset are at the heart of our conversations because I believe the way we feel about ourselves on the inside determines what we will create for ourselves on the outside.   If this is your first time joining me, I'm especially glad you're here. I often say this is a podcast that has followed the breadcrumbs of my own interests and healing journey; it's for professional and midlife women navigating life transitions, in all of its forms. In our hearts, we all know that death is a part of life, and we are becoming aware that grief is showing up in so many other areas of our lives: from new motherhood to a special need's diagnosis, job loss, divorce, having an empty nest, and even the loss of a pet. And now collectively during COVID-19.   Today's interview is part of a self-care series called Life in Full Bloom: Living From the Inside Out and I am delighted to introduce my guest today, Jessica Wertz. As an artist, adventurer and visionary Jessica has spent more than a decade as a self-employed ceramic artist living in seven different states. After establishing her career in the San Francisco Bay Area, she moved to the deep woods of Oregon to build a studio where she spent years living in the wilderness. During this time she had deeper conversation and insight around living consciously and creating from that space.  Jessica feels a deep sense of curiosity for the journey of the soul and how we weave our love in this world and into the next. Here's a glimpse of our conversation: Hi, Jessica. Thanks so much for joining me today. 4:26  And then there's this gentle reminder that comes in and, and you say this to yourself, no, I'm, I'm in a cycle of my life. I'm here for a reason I can trust why I'm here in this cycle. And what I'm going through right now is really important for me to experience the next thing, and I need to learn this, whatever this is.  5:50 Spirit Vessel is a company that my sister and I have formed together. And it is basically helping people create personalized celebration of life ceremonies, to honor those who have passed. And to do that in a way that feels very unique and individualized to the person.  8:13  We live in a culture that doesn't recognize death as a sacred transition as simply a part of life. And because of that, and then this really goes back to living in the cycles of life. Like we don't see ourselves cyclically living we see ourselves linearly living and we're terrified of the end, for what that would mean, you know, but if we were to bring into our lives, a sense of we are nature, we come from, you know, spirit world, but we are of Earth, just as everything else is here, and really a deeper understanding of how important death is.  23:00 Because I'll tell you, it'll just keep coming up and it's gonna come up uglier every time. And then you'll start feeling, you know, experiencing other emotions and taking it out on the people you love and everything else. So, tend to yourself first, attend to your heart. Let yourself be in it. Let yourself cry, find a day find time for yourself.  24:30 So I'm reading a book right now by Stephen Jenkinson called Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul and it is extremely beautiful and his perspective on death in this culture is so helpful, and it's one we've really lost. We've really lost the context. And he just really helps bring in a fuller perspective of death after his years in hospice work and really being with people through the process. So that's a gorgeous book. You can find Jessica Wertz at:  Website Instagram Facebook  If you LOVED this conversation with Jessica Wertz you'll also love the conversations we had with: Rediscover Your Brilliance with Jamie Martin Your Clutter is a Teacher with Star Hansen Finding Your Inner Peace with Lydia Knoor Knowing and Believing you are Worth the Time with Justine Hwang Putting More Love Into The World With Zita Christian  Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media, or head over to iTunes to subscribe, rate, and leave a review. Leaving a rating and review helps to improve rankings in iTunes, it shows engagement which may attract sponsors and is essential for the podcast to be discovered by new listeners + it would mean the world to me.  Here's How to Leave a Review in iTunes From Your Phone  1. Launch the Apple Podcast app on your iPhone or iPad. 2. Tap the Search icon (on the bottom right) and search for “Exploring the Seasons of Life.” 3. Tap the album art. 3. Scroll down to Ratings & Reviews. 5. At the bottom of the page tap on “Write a Review”. 6. If you're not already signed into iTunes, you will be asked to enter your iTunes password to login. 7. You'll then have the option to rate us on a scale of 1-5 stars, with 5 being the best. Tap the Stars to leave a rating. 8. Enter a review title and submit a brief honest review. 9. Tap Send.  Thanks again, Until next time live inspired!

The only inevitable thing in this life is death. Today we have an episode full of questions, with answers that will make you think deeper and ask for a better question. This episode will undoubtedly make you appreciate every second you spend alive and make you feel better about death. All of us, at some point in our lives, have been afraid of death. Today's guest, Stephen Jenkinson, will drop a bomb of knowledge that will blow our minds and change our point of view about this controversial topic. ABOUT STEPHEN JENKINSON He is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He has a master's degree in theology from Harvard University and a master's degree in social work from the University of Toronto. Formerly a program director at a major Canadian hospital and medical-school assistant professor, Stephen is now a sought-after workshop leader, speaker, and consultant to palliative care and hospice organizations. He is the founder of The Orphan Wisdom School in Canada and the subject of the documentary film Griefwalker. CONNECT WITH STEPHEN Orphan Wisdom Website Book: Come of Age Orphan Wisdom Shop WHAT YOU WILL HEAR: [5:14] Why are we so afraid of death? [12: 41] How to be a human? [19:33] The downside of living forever. [22:10] The near future of humanity. [28:30] The characterization of losing someone. [37:20] The importance of having a good death. [45:02] What does a wise death bring? [51:45] Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul. If you look at the civilized world and think, "no thank you," then you should subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss a single episode! Also, join the uncivilized community, connect with me on my website and Instagram so you can join in on our live recordings, ask questions to guests, and more. This episode is sponsored by Zensquatch Apparel. Checkout www.Zensquatch.com and use promo code " UNcivilized " for 20% off your purchases AND FREE SHIPPING for the month of August 2021. Find Traver on Instagram @traverBoehm Get a copy my book, Man UNcivilized Start your journey to become the man the that the world failed to teach you how to be.

What is fear of death anxiety? Stephen Jenkinson aka the Griefwalker explains why our fear of death anxiety is present and breaks down what's wrong with The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. Stephen Jenkinson is also the subject of the feature length documentary film Griefwalker and the author of Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul. Stephen Jenkinson is a culture activist, worker, and author. Stephen Jenkinson teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded the school with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010, convening semi-annually in Deacon, Ontario, and in northern Europe. He has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). You can support Stephen Jenkinson here: https://orphanwisdom.com/ You can watch the documentary film Griefwalker here: https://orphanwisdom.com/griefwalker/ Stream the Welcome Home Podcast with Takis: https://www.liinks.co/welcomehome Connect with Takis: https://www.instagram.com/petertakis/ https://www.instagram.com/welcomehome.podcast/ https://twitter.com/petertakis https://www.takismusic.com/ Contact Takis: welcomehometakis@gmail.com Takis (real name Peter Takis) is a DJ/ producer from Winnipeg, Canada.

Some of you might remember that Stephen Jenkinson was my first guest when this podcast changed name to The RegenNarration, back in episode 35. For those who are newer to the podcast, Stephen's a special presence in the world – a wonderful lyricist and story teller, teacher and ceremonialist, author and farmer. Our last conversation delved into his new book at the time, Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble, in which the case is made that we must birth a new generation of elders, one poised and willing to be true stewards of the planet and its species. That episode culminated in some of his gripping music and spoken word. Today we talk more about that art form, for last year he and key collaborator Gregory Hoskins released a studio and accompanying live album – called Rough Gods and Dark Roads, respectively. They were to be toured globally. But we all know what happened then. I've had guests and listeners alike speak to me of their respect for Stephen, since he was first on the podcast. So when Stephen's wife Nathalie reached out to update me on the new releases, I was keen to speak with him again. We dwell deeply in the new music this time, and particularly on one track – called Fate - that's acutely relevant in the wake of the latest global student climate strike last month. It's featured in its full 13 minutes at the end of this episode. More on Stephen: Stephen is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada and the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life. In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. With a 5-piece band, they have mounted international tours and released three albums, most recently DARK ROADS and ROUGH GODS. Most recently, a four-part livestream speaking series, A Generation's Worth, was presented in Winter 2020. A book of the same name, emerging from that series, is due out soon. Title slide image: Stephen Jenkinson (supplied). See the episode web page for more photos - https://www.regennarration.com/episodes/086-a-generations-worth This episode was recorded on Tuesday 24 May 2021 (Australian time), a few days after the most recent global student climate strike. Music: Fate, by Stephen Jenkinson and Gregory Hoskins (with band), a 13 minute track featured in full at the end of this episode. Faraway Castle, by Rae Howell and Sunwrae. Get more: You can find more from Stephen at his Orphan Wisdom website, the home of his writing and teaching work. It's described there as ‘a redemptive project that comes from where we come from. It is rooted in knowing history, being claimed by ancestry, working for a time we won't see' - https://orphanwisdom.com Thanks very much to the generous supporters of this podcast, for making it possible. If you too value what you hear, please consider joining them by heading to our website at https://www.regennarration.com/support. Thanks for helping to keep the show going! Get in touch by text or audio at https://www.regennarration.com/story And thanks for listening.

Culture activist, teacher, author ~ Stephen Jenkinson teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded with Nathalie Roy in 2010, convening semi-annually in Deacon, Ontario, and in northern Europe. He has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). Apprenticed to a master storyteller when a young man, he has worked extensively with dying people and their families, is a former program director in a major Canadian hospital, former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. He is also a sculptor, traditional canoe builder whose house won a Governor General's Award for architecture. Since co-founding Nights of Grief and Mystery with Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured this musical/tent show revival/storytelling/ceremony of a show across North America, the U.K. and Europe, and Australia and New Zealand. He is the author of Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Homecoming: The Haiku Sessions (a live teaching from 2013), How it All Could Be: A workbook for dying people and those who love them (2009), Angel and Executioner: Grief and the Love of Life – (a live teaching from 2009), and Money and The Soul's Desires: A Meditation (2002). He is contributing author to Palliative Care – Core Skills and Clinical Competencies (2007). Stephen Jenkinson is also the subject of the feature-length documentary film Griefwalker (National Film Board of Canada, 2008, dir. Tim Wilson), a portrait of his work with dying people, and Lost Nation Road, a shorter documentary on the crafting of the Nights of Grief and Mystery tours (2019, dir. Ian Mackenzie). His books, recordings and DVDs are available for purchase at the Orphan Wisdom Shop: https://orphanwisdom.com Watch the Lost Nation Road documentary here: https://orphanwisdom.com/lost-nation-road --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/longdistancelovebombs/message

Culture activist, worker, author ~ Stephen teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded the school with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010, convening semi-annually in Deacon, Ontario, and in northern Europe. He has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). Apprenticed to a master storyteller when a young man, he has worked extensively with dying people and their families, is former programme director in a major Canadian hospital, former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. He is also a sculptor, traditional canoe builder whose house won a Governor General's Award for architecture. Since co-founding the Nights of Grief and Mystery project with singer/ songwriter Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured this musical/ tent show revival/ storytelling/ ceremony of a show across North America, U.K. and Europe and Australia and New Zealand. They released their Nights of Grief & Mystery album in 2017 and at the end of 2020, they released two new records; Dark Roads and Rough Gods. He is the author of Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Homecoming: The Haiku Sessions (a live teaching from 2013), How it All Could Be: A workbook for dying people and those who love them (2009), Angel and Executioner: Grief and the Love of Life – (a live teaching from 2009), and Money and The Soul's Desires: A Meditation (2002). He was a contributing author to Palliative Care – Core Skills and Clinical Competencies (2007). Stephen Jenkinson is also the subject of the feature length documentary film Griefwalker (National Film Board of Canada, 2008, dir. Tim Wilson), a portrait of his work with dying people, and Lost Nation Road, a shorter documentary on the crafting of the Nights of Grief and Mystery tours (2019, dir. Ian Mackenzie). His books, recordings and DVDs are available for purchase at the Orphan Wisdom Shop.

This episode features a conversation with Stephen Jenkinson. He's an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada and the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life.In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. With a 5-piece band, they have mounted international tours and released three albums, most recently DARK ROADS and ROUGH GODS.You can find more about him and all the links at https://orphanwisdom.comFOLLOW ME:☆ NEW APPAREL FOR SALE ON WEBSITEhttps://davidwhipple.com/apparel-made-by-david-whipple☆ TELEGRAM CHANNELhttps://t.me/thewhippleeffect☆ ALL LINKS BIO SITEhttps://bio.site/dawhippIn this episode, we talk about his band, their tour, and how life on the road is for him.I ask him what is needed in these troubled times. And I share with him that I fear our freedoms are under threat.A concern of mine is a potential Communist revolution, so I ask him if he's concerned about Communism.Stephen is a generous man and I'm honored to have spoken with him. I hope this episode lands well with you.Visit https://orphanwisdom.com to learn more about Stephen and his work.

It’s difficult to really articulate the kind of man Stephen Jenkinson is. I’ve interviewed hundreds of brilliant people and studied many more, but very few approach the same level of profoundly medicinal wisdom as Jenkinson. To say I’m a fan is an understatement. Bear with the occasional rough patch of audio and listen to some challenging depth. Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada, and the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief, dying, and the great love of life, and Come Of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble. In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. With a 5-piece band, they have mounted international tours and released three albums, most recently DARK ROADS and ROUGH GODS. Most recently, a four-part livestream speaking series, A Generation’s Worth, was presented in Winter 2020. Orphan Wisdom is the home of Stephen Jenkinson’s writing and teaching work. Orphan Wisdom is a teaching house for the skills of deep living and making human culture. It is a redemptive project that comes from where we come from. It is rooted in knowing history, being claimed by ancestry, working for a time we won’t see.​   Connect with Stephen -Website: https://orphanwisdom.com/ -Books: https://orphanwisdom.com/books/ -DARK ROADS/ROUGH GODS trailer: https://youtu.be/85KPoBISv_0 -DARK ROADS album: https://orphanwisdom.com/shop/dark-roads/ -ROUGH GODS album: https://orphanwisdom.com/shop/rough-gods/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode, I interview Stephen Jenkinson, the author of Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul on his music and what he learnt working with the dying.

This is a segment of episode #289 of Last Born In The Wilderness “Love Is Limitation: Disillusionment & Obligation In Troubled Times w/ Stephen Jenkinson.” Listen to the full episode: http://bit.ly/LBWjenkinson3 Learn more about and purchase DARK ROADS and ROUGH GODS: http://bit.ly/DarkRoadsRoughGods Stephen Jenkinson, author of ‘Die Wise’ and ‘Come of Age,’ returns to the podcast to discuss love, or how we commonly understand love to be, versus what love really is and is practiced, and what it asks of us in the time allotted to us on this earth. Intersecting with Stephen's work in the "death trade" and his interrogation of the death-phobic culture of the United States and Canada, he frames our exploration of love within the deeper understanding of how limits make us human. Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada and the author of four books, including ‘Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul,’ the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life, and ‘Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble.’ In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. With a 5-piece band, they have mounted international tours and released three albums, most recently DARK ROADS and ROUGH GODS. Most recently, a four-part livestream speaking series, STONE FENCE SAGAS, were presented in Fall 2020. WEBSITE: https://www.lastborninthewilderness.com PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/lastborninthewilderness DONATE: https://www.paypal.me/lastbornpodcast / https://venmo.com/LastBornPodcast BOOK: http://bit.ly/ORBITgr ATTACK & DETHRONE: https://anchor.fm/adgodcast DROP ME A LINE: Call (208) 918-2837 or http://bit.ly/LBWfiledrop EVERYTHING ELSE: https://linktr.ee/patterns.of.behavior

[Intro: 13:25 | Outro: 1:17:23] Stephen Jenkinson, author of ‘Die Wise’ and ‘Come of Age,’ returns to the podcast to discuss what he and musical collaborator Gregory Hoskins have been up to since their Nights of Grief and Mystery global tour was cancelled when coronavirus lockdowns began last year. Released in November, they put together two albums, DARK ROAD and ROUGH GODS. “In the idleness that’s been forced upon us we’ve made two records. I learned this: music is human scaled miracle. “They call it fishing, not catching. That’s because, though there may be fish galore in the places you can’t see, none of them are in the world to satisfy your hook, and mostly they don’t come. I don’t really know where these records came from, but I know they came to two men willing to sit quietly for hours upon days, keeping their faithless wits about them, paying attention, paying for it. We’ve been often quizzed at the border: what do you do? what kind of music? what’s with the Grief and Mystery thing? Palms up, shrugging: that’s an honest answer.” (http://bit.ly/DarkRoadsRoughGods) In discussing this subject, we move into a conversation about love, or how we commonly understand love to be, versus what love really is and is practiced, and what it asks of us in the time allotted to us on this earth. Intersecting with Stephen's work in the "death trade" and his interrogation of the death-phobic culture of the United States and Canada, he frames our exploration of love within the deeper understanding of how limits make us human. Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada and the author of four books, including ‘Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul,’ the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life, and ‘Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble.’ In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. With a 5-piece band, they have mounted international tours and released three albums, most recently DARK ROADS and ROUGH GODS. Most recently, a four-part livestream speaking series, STONE FENCE SAGAS, were presented in Fall 2020. Episode Notes: - Learn more about and purchase DARK ROADS and ROUGH GODS: http://bit.ly/DarkRoadsRoughGods / https://orphanwisdom.com/shop/dark-roads / https://orphanwisdom.com/shop/rough-gods - Learn more about Stephen’s work: https://orphanwisdom.com - The songs featured are “Invocation” and “Bittersweet” from ROUGH GODS. - To contact Hannah Dwyer about her Friend Farm invitation, you can email or DM her on Instagram: dwyer96@gmail.com  / https://www.instagram.com/hannahrdwyer - Read her article ‘Magic Can Create a Decolonial Future' at Gods&Radicals Press: http://bit.ly/3uL0k9m WEBSITE: https://www.lastborninthewilderness.com PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/lastborninthewilderness DONATE: https://www.paypal.me/lastbornpodcast / https://venmo.com/LastBornPodcast BOOK: http://bit.ly/ORBITgr ATTACK & DETHRONE: https://anchor.fm/adgodcast DROP ME A LINE: Call (208) 918-2837 or http://bit.ly/LBWfiledrop EVERYTHING ELSE: https://linktr.ee/patterns.of.behavior

STEPHEN JENKINSON, MTS, MSW is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Tramore, Canada and the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life. In 2015, he created Nights of Grief & Mystery with Canadian singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins. With a 5-piece band, they have mounted international tours and released three albums, most recently DARK ROADS and ROUGH GODS. For more information you can visit orphanwisdom.com In this conversation, Stephen discusses approaching art as a citizen as opposed to an individual, the illusion of control in health and fitness, and his new albums DARK ROADS and ROUGH GODS. And, the episode closes with the track "Exegesis" from ROUGH GODS.

My guest today is Stephen Jenkinson, a culture activist, teacher and author, and principle instructor of The Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded with his wife Nathalie Roy. He has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). Stephen's most recent books are the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), and Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018). I first encountered Stephen back in 2012, when a friend invited me to a summer teaching that was close to my home in Vancouver. That first morning, he gathered us at first light and told a story about the sun, rising. I was never to be the same again. That meeting has altered my life completely. That winter, I joined the Orphan Wisdom School on his farm in Ontario, and have returned to many gatherings and teachings over the years. I have also produced numerous short films on Stephen's work, including The Meaning of Death, the Making of Humans, and Lost Nation Road (2019). If you've listened to this podcast for some time, you know that I usually quote Stephen at least once an episode. And this interview has been a long time coming - largely because I wished to record it in person, and not over Zoom. I finally had that opportunity last September when I travelled to Ontario on a whirlwind trip to the farm. If you'd like to hear more of that story, I've shared an additional recording which is available to my Patreon supporters. Head over to the Mythic Masculine website and click ‘Become a Supporter' if you'd like to gain access. For now, I'm very pleased to share our conversation, where we explore personal and profound territory, including: the lost origins of the mythopoetic men's movement, the times Stephen met Robert Bly and James Hillman, the deep etymology of the word ‘patriarchy', and the mythic understanding that a culture needs its fathering, as much as it needs its fathers. And so, enjoy my conversation with Stephen Jenkinson. Support this podcast http://patreon.com/ianmack Join the Conversation http://themythicmasculine.com/network

Episode 146 - Stephen Jenkinson Dan Sterenchuk and Tommy Estlund are honored to have as our guest, Stephen Jenkinson. Culture activist, teacher, author ~ Stephen teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded the school with Nathalie Roy in 2010, convening semi-annually in Deacon, Ontario, and in northern Europe. He has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). Apprenticed to a master storyteller when a young man, he has worked extensively with dying people and their families, is former programme director in a major Canadian hospital, former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. He is also a sculptor, traditional canoe builder whose house won a Governor General's Award for architecture. Since co-founding Nights of Grief and Mystery with Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured this musical/tent show revival/storytelling/ceremony of a show across North America, U.K. and Europe and Australia and New Zealand. He is the author of Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Homecoming: The Haiku Sessions (a live teaching from 2013), How it All Could Be: A workbook for dying people and those who love them (2009), Angel and Executioner: Grief and the Love of Life – (a live teaching from 2009), and Money and The Soul's Desires: A Meditation (2002). He is contributing author to Palliative Care – Core Skills and Clinical Competencies (2007). Stephen Jenkinson is also the subject of the feature length documentary film Griefwalker (National Film Board of Canada, 2008, dir. Tim Wilson), a portrait of his work with dying people, and Lost Nation Road, a shorter documentary on the crafting of the Nights of Grief and Mystery tours (2019, dir. Ian Mackenzie). His books, recordings and DVDs are available for purchase at the Orphan Wisdom Shop. Website: https://orphanwisdom.com The Curiosity Hour Podcast is hosted and produced by Dan Sterenchuk and Tommy Estlund. Please visit our website for more information: thecuriosityhourpodcast.com The Curiosity Hour Podcast is listener supported! To donate, click here: thecuriosityhourpodcast.com/donate/ Please visit this page for information where you can listen to our podcast: thecuriosityhourpodcast.com/listen/ Disclaimers: The Curiosity Hour Podcast may contain content not suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion advised. The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are solely those of the guest(s). These views and opinions do not necessarily represent those of The Curiosity Hour Podcast. This podcast may contain explicit language.

  In this conversation, Dina and Stephen have a deeply personal and provocative conversation about the topics of culture, death, grief and mystery. Stephen Jenkinson is the author Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul and Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble. He is also touring with musician Gregory Hoskins as The Nights of Grief and Mystery. STEPHEN JENKINSON, MTS, MSW is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He has a master's degree in theology from Harvard University and a master's degree in social work from the University of Toronto. He is a former programme director and medical-school assistant professor. He is the subject of the documentary National Film Board of Canada documentary film, Griefwalker.  He teaches internationally. With Nathalie Roy, Jenkinson founded The Orphan Wisdom School is 2010, which convenes in Tramore, Canada, and in various places in northern Europe. He is the author of How It All Could Be (now translated into four languages), Money and the Soul’s Desires, Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, and, most recently, Come of Age: The Case of Elderhood in a Time of Trouble. With Gregory Hoskins and band, Stephen has offered Nights of Grief & Mystery to sold out houses on three continents, most recently during the 26-city Nights of Grief & MysteryNorth American Tour 2018.    

Stephen Jenkinson is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He has a master's degree in theology from Harvard University and a master's degree in social work from the University of Toronto. He is the author of many books including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, and, most recently, Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble. For the past few years Stephen has been touring the world with musician Gregory Hoskins and their Nights of Grief & Mystery.Some of you might remember that I had Stephen on the podcast last year around this time, talking about his book on elderhood. That conversation left me with a lot to wonder about and this one is no different. What is different perhaps, is that in this episode I think you hear more of Stephen’s lighter side, in part because it’s an aspect of him that really comes out on stage when he’s with his band and it’s something I wanted to talk to him about. We also talk about what it’s like for him to find a new vocation as frontman at this stage in his life; the creative process behind Nights of Grief and Mystery; the connection between grief and joy; and Stephen offers his thoughts on another provocative Canadian figure, Jordan Peterson.Stephen’s website: https://orphanwisdom.com/Tour Dates: http://nightsofgriefandmystery.comLead-in music: ‘Take a Little Walk’ by Gregory HoskinsOutro music: ‘Everybody Knows’ by Leonard CohenFor support on your medicine path:1-to-1 yoga, plant medicine integration and transformative coaching with Brian Jameshttp://brianjames.caSupport the Podcast!1. Leave a review on iTunes, or share with your friends on social media2. Become a Patreon supporter at http://patreon.com/medicinepath and gain access to podcast extras and hours of yoga practice resources including vinyasa sequences, breathwork, chanting and guided meditations.3. Leave a one-time donation at http://paypal.me/medicinepathyogaAbout Brian JamesBrian James is a yoga teacher, transformational coach and psychedelic integration counselor currently living in Montréal, Canada with his wife, astrologer Debbie Stapleton and their Boston Terrier Kingston. He has been exploring the intersection of yoga and shamanism for over 25 years.medicinepathpodcast.cominstagram.com/brianjames.medicinepathtags: brian james, stephen jenkinson, gregory hoskins, jordan peterson, music, grief, elderhood

Our guest for this week is Stephen Jenkinson, a culture activist, teacher, author, ceremonialist and founder of the Orphan Wisdom School.Stephen’s educational background includes masters degrees in Theology and Social Work. He is renowned for his work regarding grief and dying all over North America. Years of working with people who are either dying or experiencing the loss of a loved one have given him profound insight into how we perceive, interpret and deal with death. Throughout his career, he was performing roles such as programme director in a major Canadian hospital and assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. He has also worked as a consultant to palliative care and hospice organizations and educator and advocate in the helping professions.Stephen founded Orphan Wisdom School back in 2010, a teaching house and a learning house for the skills of deep living and making human culture. The name “orphan” describes people whose culture has been built upon mass migration, but as Stephen puts it “not knowing where you are from is not the same thing as being from nowhere”. The philosophy of Orphan Wisdom School is rooted in “knowing history, being claimed by ancestry and working for a time we may not see”.He was also the subject of the feature-length documentary film titled “Griefwalker” released in 2008. In the film, you get to experience and witness not only Stephen’s work and teachings of palliative care but his thoughts on culture, community, and the need for elders. He has produced a 10 part series called “The Haiku Sessions” which are created based on his live recorded teachings.Stephen has authored two books. In 2015, he published “Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul” which works as a guide for dying well by learning the right skills through the process of living well. His latest book is called “Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble”. It was released in 2018 and in it, Stephen makes the case for birthing “a new generation of elders, one poised and willing to be true stewards of the planet and its species”.For the next several weeks, Stephen will be touring Australia and New Zealand with his latest book. You can expect events such as author reading and reportage, all day talks and festival appearances. Check out the dates of his tour here!Connect with Stephen:Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/orphanwisdom/Website: https://orphanwisdom.com/Stephen’s Journey of Inspired Evolution“Anyone who speaks with authority about one’s own life has been reading the wrong mail.” - Stephen JenkinsonStephen plays an active role in something that he likes to call “the death trade”. To give a better explanation of what he means by that, he takes us back to a moment in his life when it all began. He was approached with an offer and the idea behind it was that Stephen would organize a support group for men who were having trouble coping with losing important people in their lives.“I would take the little job which was to do a six-week group for these guys and I didn’t have any idea what I was going to do.” - Stephen JenkinsonEven though he wasn’t a “corporate guy”, he decided not to pass on an opportunity to help others in their time of need. But he was faced with a new conundrum. It became pretty clear to him that men aren’t that open to participating in emotional support groups that were exclusively for men. Most people would either give up in a situation like this, or try to change the conditions of their role, but Stephen actually saw potential in this particular challenge. He knew that even though he would have to face some drawbacks and that people would be reluctant to join his group, he also knew that all of these men were sharing the same situation and had several characteristics that would allow them to bond.“That’s the group it’s going to be. A men’s group for men who don’t want to be in a group for men.” - Stephen JenkinsonStephen managed to persuade and form a group that had around 7 or 8 members in the beginning. After a few sessions, it became apparent to Stephen that the main topic they should devote their time to in their discussions is anger. Because even though anger is a perfectly natural response, it has been completely rejected by Western society. He noticed that the members of his group were very reliant on their anger but were also very ashamed for feeling and responding in such a way to the situation they’re in.“They were so good at anger, basically, to cover something that they had very little practice at and that was the art and the skillfulness of being sad.” - Stephen JenkinsonThe shift in the topic actually resulted in the group being dubbed as “Sad School” but the value of these meetings is reflected in the fact that the six-week group ended up lasting around 18 months. It was there that Stephen had found his calling and discovered a new sense of purpose.What Does It Mean to Be an Elder?The variety and scale of topics discussed in this podcast surpass the limits of our humble show notes. But let’s focus on Stephen’s understanding of the roles elders play or at least should play in our society. A lot of other concepts in Stephen’s teachings can be connected to this theme. He goes on to explain the meaning behind the phrase “respect your elders” and essentially analyses the implications of different ways of comprehending this message. He believes the formula has a sort of a “two-part interpretation” and that in our society only one is present.“The part that never appears, that nobody talks about… is, you respect your elders in part because they have carried themselves in a respectable way.” - Stephen JenkinsonOne of the most profound aspects of his teaching regarding the topic of elders is that Stephen understands it is a role to be earned. It’s not a simple consequence of having lived a certain number of years, you should have also behaved and represented yourself in a manner that will incite the respect of younger generations. It should also be pointed out that “respect” in this context is a complex term that also holds within itself the idea of “seeking guidance”. We dive very deep into the very core of the topic in our conversation.Stephen’s Message of Inspired EvolutionTalking to Stephen feels like talking to a profound-quote machine, but you immediately understand that the description would make no sense because of the fact his sincere humanity takes over you in an instant. I’ve been a fan of his work for quite some time and making this podcast was an amazing experience and a true privilege. I hope you’ll discover much of the same things that drew me to him in the first place when you listen to our conversation. Finally, I could probably take any of his innumerable messages he has crafted with such verbal excellence that there’s no hiding the fact he is a true artist as well. I’ve decided to go with one that resonates with the heart of our show and I’m sincerely hoping it will inspire an evolution within all:“What limit really is, is the opportunity for your style finally to appear.” - Stephen Jenkinson See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

In this segment of our conversation, Stephen Jenkinson discusses how the dominant culture of North America, as Stephen frames it, is awash in aged people, but bereft of elders - in the truest sense of the word. Stephen “argues that elderhood is a function rather than an identity – it is not a position earned simply by the number of years on the planet or the title ‘parent’ or ‘grandparent.’” Why is it that the dominant culture of North America has been unable to produce the conditions necessary for elderhood to flourish, especially in this time of trouble we find ourselves in? Stephen points to what elderhood in our time of great crisis (ecological, spiritual, political, and otherwise) would possibly look like, framing it within the profound realization that elderhood can only flourish when the appetite exists for it. “I am making the case for elderhood, not for easy agedness. I’m doing so mostly by wondering what happened. Because something happened. Something happened to ancestors and elders and honour. There’s work to be done, and there’s an old wisdom to be learned where there used to be the wisdom of old, and you can’t fix what you don’t understand. That’s where we’re headed: to grievous wisdom. Let us see if we can bear the sound, the particular sound, of no hand clapping. This is a plea and a plot for elders in training.” Learn more about and purchase ‘Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble’ here: http://bit.ly/2mojOia Stephen Jenkinson (MTS, MSW) is a culture activist, teacher, author and ceremonialist. He is the author of numerous books, including ‘Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble’ and ‘Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul.’ Stephen teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010. Learn more about Stephen and his work at https://orphanwisdom.com This is a segment of episode #134 of Last Born In The Wilderness “Elderhood: Coming Of Age In Troubled Times w/ Stephen Jenkinson.” Listen to the full episode: http://bit.ly/2zTXTsL Podcast website: https://www.lastborninthewilderness.com Support the podcast: PATREON: www.patreon.com/lastborninthewilderness ONE-TIME DONATION: www.ko-fi.com/lastborninthewilderness Follow and listen: SOUNDCLOUD: http://bit.ly/LBWSOUNDCLOUD ITUNES: http://bit.ly/LBWITUNES GOOGLE PLAY: http://bit.ly/LBWGOOGLE STITCHER: http://bit.ly/LBWSTITCHER RADIOPUBLIC: http://bit.ly/LBWRADIOPUB YOUTUBE: http://bit.ly/LBWYOUTUBE Social Media: FACEBOOK: www.facebook.com/lastborninthewildernesspodcast TWITTER: www.twitter.com/lastbornpodcast INSTAGRAM: www.instagram.com/patterns.of.behavior

In this episode I speak with Stephen Jenkinson - founder and lead instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School and the author of numerous books, including ‘Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul’ and most recently ‘Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble.’ In this discussion, we discuss how the dominant culture of North America, as Stephen frames it, is awash in aged people, but bereft of elders, in the truest sense of the word. Stephen “argues that elderhood is a function rather than an identity – it is not a position earned simply by the number of years on the planet or the title ‘parent’ or ‘grandparent.’”☨ Why is it that the dominant culture of North America has been unable to produce the conditions necessary for elderhood to flourish, especially in this time of trouble we find ourselves in? Stephen discusses what the historical and cultural conditions have been that has lead to this unexplored and unexamined crisis, and points to what elderhood in our time of great crisis (ecological, spiritual, political, and otherwise) would possibly look like, framing it within the profound realization that elderhood can only flourish when the appetite exists for it. Stephen states it better than I ever could: “I am making the case for elderhood, not for easy agedness. I’m doing so mostly by wondering what happened. Because something happened. Something happened to ancestors and elders and honour. There’s work to be done, and there’s an old wisdom to be learned where there used to be the wisdom of old, and you can’t fix what you don’t understand. That’s where we’re headed: to grievous wisdom. Let us see if we can bear the sound, the particular sound, of no hand clapping. This is a plea and a plot for elders in training.”☨ Stephen Jenkinson (MTS, MSW) is a culture activist, teacher, author and ceremonialist. He is the author of numerous books, including ‘Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble’ and ‘Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul.’ Stephen teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010. With Master’s degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work), he is revolutionizing grief and dying in North America. Apprenticed to a master storyteller, he has worked extensively with dying people and their families, is former program director in a major Canadian hospital, former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school, consultant to palliative care and hospice organizations and educator and advocate in the helping professions. He is also a sculptor, traditional canoe builder whose house won a Governor General’s Award for architecture. Stephen Jenkinson is also the subject of the feature length documentary film Griefwalker (National Film Board of Canada, 2008), a lyrical, poetic portrait of his work with dying people.✧ ☨ Source: http://bit.ly/2mojOia ✧ Source: http://bit.ly/2uxJ9uG Episode Notes: - Everything you need to know about Stephen Jenkinson and his work can be found at the Orphan Wisdom website: https://orphanwisdom.com - You can learn more and purchase ’Come of Age’ at the Orphan Wisdom website (http://bit.ly/2mojOia) and at the publisher’s website (http://bit.ly/2LtA9wV). - Follow Orphan Wisdom on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/orphanwisdom - WEBSITE: https://www.lastborninthewilderness.com - SUPPORT THIS PROJECT: Patreon: http://bit.ly/LBWPATREON Donation: http://bit.ly/LBWKOFI - FOLLOW & LISTEN: SoundCloud: http://bit.ly/LBWSOUNDCLOUD iTunes: http://bit.ly/LBWITUNES Google Play: http://bit.ly/LBWGOOGLE Stitcher: http://bit.ly/LBWSTITCHER RadioPublic: http://bit.ly/LBWRADIOPUB YouTube: http://bit.ly/LBWYOUTUBE - SOCIAL MEDIA: Facebook: http://bit.ly/LBWFACEBOOK Twitter: http://bit.ly/LBWTWITTER Instagram: http://bit.ly/LBWINSTA

Stephen Jenkinson is an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He has a master's degree in theology from Harvard University and a master's degree in social work. He was formerly a program director at a major Canadian hospital and medical-school assistant professor. He has worked extensively with dying people and their families and is a consultant to palliative care and hospice organizations. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada and is the subject of the documentary film, Griefwalker. He  is the author of: Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (North Atlantic Books 2015)Tags:  Stephen Jenkinson, writing a letter to your mother, encounter with dying, heartbrokenness, Brother Blue, Hugh Hill, initiation, Death & Dying, Indigenous Wisdom