Podcast appearances and mentions of James Hillman

Episode summary Joe and Mary dive into how platform censorship and shifting algorithms have reshaped psychedelic media, why DoubleBlind moved to a “newsletter-first” model, and what that's revealed about true audience engagement. They reflect on the post-2024 MDMA decision headwinds, state-level policy moves (wins and losses), and how funding, politics, and culture continue to reconfigure the field. They also explore alternatives to alcohol, chronic pain research, reciprocity around iboga/ibogaine, and lessons from PS25 (MAPS' Psychedelic Science 2025). Highlights & themes From platforms to inboxes: Social and search suppression (IG/FB/Google) throttled harm-reduction journalism; DoubleBlind's pivot to email dramatically improved reach and engagement. Post-MDMA decision reality: Investment cooled; Mary frames it as painful but necessary growth—an ecosystem “airing out” rather than a catastrophic pop. Policy pulse: Mixed year—some state measures stalled (e.g., MA), others advanced (e.g., NM; ongoing Colorado process). Rescheduling cannabis may add complexity more than clarity. Censorship paradox: Suppressing education makes use less safe; independent outlets need community support to keep harm-reduction info visible. Chronic pain & long COVID: Emerging overlaps and training efforts (e.g., Psychedelics & Pain communities) point beyond a psychiatry-only frame. Alcohol alternatives: Low-dose or occasional psychedelic use can shift habits for some; Mary stresses individual context and support beyond any single substance. Reciprocity & iboga: Rising interest (including from right-leaning funders) must include Indigenous consultation and fair benefit-sharing; pace of capitalism vs. community care is an active tension. PS25 field notes: Smaller, more manageable vibe than 2023; fewer “gold-rush” expectations; in-person dialogue beats online flame wars. Notable mentions DoubleBlind: Newsletter-first publishing; nurturing new writers and reported stories. Psychedelics & Pain Association / Clusterbusters: Community-driven models informing care and research (cluster headache protocols history). Books & media: Body Autonomy (Synergetic Press anthology); Joanna Kempner's work on cluster headaches - Psychedelic Outlaws; Lucy Walker's forthcoming iboga film. Compounds to watch: LSD (under-studied relative to MDMA), 2C-B, 5-MeO-DMT (synthetic focus), and broader Shulgin-inspired families.   Mary Carreon: [00:00:00] Okay, I'm gonna send it to my dad because he wants to know. Here Joe Moore: we go. Yeah, send it over. So, hi everybody. We're live Joe here with Mary Anne, how you doing today? Mary Carreon: I'm great Joe. How are you? Joe Moore: Lovely. I actually never asked you how to pronounce your last name does say it right? Mary Carreon: Yes, you did. You said it perfectly Joe Moore: lovely. Joe Moore: Um, great. So it's been a bit, um, we are streaming on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitch X and Kick, I guess. Yeah. Kick meta. Meta doesn't let me play anymore. Um, Mary Carreon: you're in forever. Timeout. I got it. I got it. Yeah. Joe Moore: Yeah. I think they found a post the other day from 2017. They didn't like, I'm like, oh cool. Like neat, you Mary Carreon: know, you know. Mary Carreon: Yeah. That happened to me recently, actually. Uh, I had a post taken down from 2018 about, uh, mushroom gummies and yeah, it was taken down and I have strikes on my account now. So Joe Moore: Do you get the thing where they ask you if you're okay? Mary Carreon: Yes, with, but like with my searches though, [00:01:00] like if I search something or, or someone's account that has, uh, like mushroom or psychedelic or LSD or something in it, they'll be like, mm-hmm are you okay? Mary Carreon: And then it recommends getting help. So Joe Moore: it's like, to be fair, I don't know if I'm okay, but Yeah, you're like, probably not. I don't really want your help. Meta. Yeah. Mary Carreon: You're like, I actually do need help, but not from you. Thanks. Yeah, Joe Moore: yeah, yeah. Mary Carreon: So not from the techno fascists. Joe Moore: Oh, good lord. Yeah. Uh, we'll go there. Joe Moore: I'm sure. Mary Carreon: I know. I just like really dove right there. Sorry. Yeah. All right, so let's, Joe Moore: um, before we go, let's give people like a bit of, you know, high kicks on, on who is Mary, where you working these days and what are you doing? Mary Carreon: Yeah, thank you. My name is Mary Carryon and I am forever and first and foremost a journalist. Mary Carreon: I have been covering, I say the plant legalization spaces for the past decade. It's, it's been nine and a half years. Uh, on January 3rd it will be [00:02:00] 10 years. And I got my start covering cannabis, uh, at OC Weekly. And from there went to High Times, and from there went to Mary Jane, worked for Snoop Dogg. And then, uh, I am now. Mary Carreon: Double blind. And I have become recently, as of this year, the editor in chief of Double Blind, and that's where I have been currently sinking my teeth into everything. So currently, you know, at this moment I'm an editor and I am basically also a curator. So, and, and somebody who is a, uh, I guess an observer of this space more than anything these days. Mary Carreon: Um, I'm not really reporting in the same way that I was. Um, but still I am helping many journalists tell stories and, uh, I feel kind of like a story midwife in many ways. Just like helping people produce stories and get the, get the quotes, get the angles that need to be discussed, get the sentences structures right, and, um, uh, helping [00:03:00] sometimes in a visionary kind of, uh, mindset. Mary Carreon: So yeah, that's what I'm doing these days. Joe Moore: Oh, there it is. Oh, there you are. Love that. And um, you know, it's important to have, um, editors who kind of really get it from a lot of different angles. I love that we have a lot of alignment on this kind of, and the drug war thing and kind of let's, uh, hopefully start developing systems that are for people. Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. If you wanna just say that. Yeah, absolutely. Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. Joe Moore: So, um, yeah, I almost 10 years in January. That's great. We um, it's so crazy that it's been that long. I think we just turned nine and a half, so we're maybe just a few, a few months shorter than your I love it. Plant medicine reporting career. Joe Moore: That's great. I love it. Um, yeah, so I think. I think one of the first times we chatted, [00:04:00] um, I think you were doing a piece about two cb Do you, do you have any recollection of doing a piece on two cb? Mary Carreon: I do, yes. Yes. Wait, I also remember hitting you up during an Instagram live and I was like, are you guys taking any writers? Mary Carreon: And you guys were like writers, I mean, maybe depending on the writer. Joe Moore: And I was like, I was like, I dunno how that works. Mary Carreon: Like me. Yeah. Joe Moore: Yeah. It was fun. It was fun to work with people like yourself and like get pieces out there. And eventually we had an awesome editor for a bit and that was, that was really cool to be able to like support young startup writers who have a lot of opinions and a lot of things to point out. Joe Moore: There's so much happening. Um, there was so much fraud in like wave one. Of kind of the psychedelic investment hype. There's still some, but it's lesser. Um, and it's really a fascinating space still. Like changing lives, changing not just lives, right? Like our [00:05:00] perspective towards nearly everything, right? Joe Moore: Yeah. Mary Carreon: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting because the space has matured. It's evolved. It's different than it was even, what a, I mean, definitely nine years ago, but even five years ago, even four years ago, even last year, things are different. The landscape is different than it was a year ago. Mary Carreon: And I, it's, it's interesting to see the politics of things. It's interesting to see who has money these days given like how hard it is just to kind of survive in this space. And it's interesting just to. Bear witness to all of this going down because it really is a once in a lifetime thing. Nothing is gonna look the same as it does now, as it, uh, then it will like in a, in a year from now or anything. Mary Carreon: So it's really, yeah. It's interesting to take account of all of this Joe Moore: That's so real. Uh, maybe a little [00:06:00] too real, like it's serious because like with everything that's going on from, um, you know, governance, governments, ai Yes. Drug policy shifts. Drug tech shifts, yes. There's so much interesting movement. Um, yes. Joe Moore: You, you know, you, you kind of called it out and I think it's really actually worth discussing here since we're both here on the air together, like this idea that the psychedelic market, not idea, the lived experience of the psychedelic market having shifted substantially. And I, I, I think there's a lot of causes. Joe Moore: But I've never had the opportunity to really chat with you about this kind of like interesting downturn in money flowing into the space. Mm-hmm. Have you thought about it? Like what might the causes be? I'm sure you have. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, I have. Yeah. I've thought about it. I mean, it's hard. Well, I don't know. I am really not trying to point fingers and that's not what I'm [00:07:00] trying to do here. Mary Carreon: But I mean, I think a lot of people were really hopeful that the FDA decision last June, not last June, the previous June, a year ago, 2024, June was going to open the floodgates in terms of funding, in terms of, um. In terms of mostly funding, but also just greater opportunities for the space and, uh, greater legitimacy granted to the psychedelic medicine space. Mary Carreon: Mm. And for those who might not know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the, uh, FDA decision to reject, uh, MDMA assisted therapy and, um, that whole, that whole thing that happened, I'm sure if it, you didn't even have to really understand what was going on in order to get wind of that wild situation. Mary Carreon: Um, so, so maybe, yeah. You probably know what I'm talking about, but I, I do think that that had a great impact on this space. Do I think it was detrimental to this space? [00:08:00] I don't think so. We are in a growth spurt, you know, like we are growing and growing pains happen when you are evolving and changing and learning and figuring out the way forward. Mary Carreon: So I think it was kind of a natural process for all of this and. If things had gone forward like while, yeah, there probably would be more money, there would be greater opportunity in this space for people wanting to get in and get jobs and make a living and have a life for themselves in this, in this world. Mary Carreon: I don't know if it was, I don't know if it would necessarily be for the betterment of the space in general for the long term. I think that we do have to go through challenges in order for the best case scenarios to play out in the future, even though that's difficult to say now because so many of us are struggling. Mary Carreon: So, but I, but I have hope and, and that statement is coming from a place of hope for the future of this space and this culture. Joe Moore: Yeah. It's, um, I'm with [00:09:00] you. Like we have to see boom bust cycles. We have to see growth and contraction just like natural ecosystems do. Mary Carreon: Absolutely, absolutely. It has to be that way. Mary Carreon: And if it's not that way, then ifs, if. It's, it like what forms in place of that is a big bubble or like a, a hot air balloon that's inevitably going to pop, which, like, we are kind of experiencing that. But I think that the, I think that the, um, the, the air letting out of the balloon right now is a much softer experience than it would be if everything was just like a green light all the way forward, if that makes sense. Mary Carreon: So, Joe Moore: right. And there's, there's so many factors. Like I'm, I'm thinking about, uh, metas censorship like we were talking about before. Yes. Other big tech censorship, right? Mm-hmm. SEO shifts. Mary Carreon: Oh. Um, yes, absolutely. Also, uh, there were some pretty major initiatives on the state level that did not pass also this past year that really would've also kind of [00:10:00] helped the landscape a little bit. Mary Carreon: Um. In terms of creating jobs, in terms of creating opportunities for funding, in terms of having more, uh, like the perception of safer money flow into the space and that, you know, those, those things didn't happen. For instance, the measure for in Massachusetts that didn't go through and just, you know, other things that didn't happen. Mary Carreon: However, there have been really good things too, in terms of, uh, legalization or various forms of legalization, and that's in New Mexico, so we can't, you know, forget that there, and we also can't forget just the movement happening in Colorado. So there are really great things happening and the, the movement is still moving forward. Mary Carreon: Everything is still going. It's just a little more difficult than maybe it could have been Joe Moore: right. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Yes. But also, we Mary Carreon: can't forget this censorship thing. The censorship thing is a horse shit. Sorry. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to cuss, but it is, [00:11:00] but it is Joe Moore: calling it out and it's important to say this stuff. Joe Moore: And you know, folks, if you want to support independent media, please consider supporting Doubleblind and psychedelics today. From a media perspective, absolutely. We wanna wanna put as much out as we can. Yes. The more supporters we have, the more we can help all of you understand what's happening and yes. Joe Moore: Getting you to stay safer. Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the whole difficulty with the censorship is that psychedelics today, and Doubleblind for instance, but also Lucid News, also other, uh, other influencers, other creators in the space, they like. What all of us are doing is putting out information that is ultimately creating a safer user experience. Mary Carreon: And so with the censorship, we are not able to do so anymore, which creates actually a lot of danger. So. Yeah, it's, it's difficult. The censorship is difficult, and if you are somebody who posts about psychedelics, I know that you know this and I am preaching to the choir. Joe Moore: Yeah. So can you talk a [00:12:00] little bit about you all at Double Blind made a major shift in the last number of months towards, uh, kind of not necessarily putting everything out there and, and kind of like, um, actually I don't even know the language you use. Joe Moore: What's the, what's the language you use for the kind of model shift you took on? Mary Carreon: Yeah, I mean, it's great. It's been a wild shift. It's been a wild shift. Um, what we are currently doing is we went to a newsletter first model, which instead of just posting onto a website for everyone to see, and then, um, you know, hopefully getting SEO hits and also posting on their, then posting those stories onto Instagram and Facebook and Twitter, and hoping to get traffic through social media. Mary Carreon: Uh, we decided that that was no longer working for us because it wasn't, um, because the censorship is so bad on, on social media, like on Instagram, for instance, and Facebook and Twitter, well, less on Twitter, [00:13:00] but still, nonetheless on social media, the censorship is so bad. And also the censorship exists on Google. Mary Carreon: When you Google search how to take mushrooms, double blinds is not even on. You know, our guide is not on the first page. It's like, you know, way the heck, way the heck down there. Maybe page 2, 3, 4, 5. I don't know. But, um, the issue, the issue with that, or, or the reason why rather that it's that way is because Google is prioritizing, um, like rehabilitation centers for this information. Mary Carreon: And also they are prioritizing, uh, medical information. So, like WebMD for instance. And all of these organizations that Google is now prioritizing are u are, are, are, are organizations that see psychedelic use through the lens of addiction or through drug drug abuse. So [00:14:00] again, you know, I don't know, take it for how you want to, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna tell anybody like what is the right way to use their substances or whatever. Mary Carreon: However, it's really important to have the proper harm reduction resources and tools available. Uh, just readily available, not five pages down on a Google search. So anyways, all of that said double blind was our traffic was way down. And it was looking very bleak for a while. Just we were getting kicked off of Instagram. Mary Carreon: We weren't getting any traffic from social media onto our website, onto our stories. It was a, it was a vicious kind of cycle downward, and it wasn't really working. And there was a moment there where Doubleblind almost shut down as a result of these numbers because there's a, like you, a media company cannot sustain itself on really low page views as a result. Mary Carreon: So what we [00:15:00] decided to do was go to a newsletter first model, which relies on our email list. And basically we are sending out newsletters three days a week of new original content, mostly, uh, sometimes on Wednesdays we repost an SEO story or something like that. Um, to just to engage our audience and to work with our audience that way, and to like to actually engage our audience. Mary Carreon: I cannot emphasize that enough because on Instagram and on Facebook, we were only reaching like, I don't know, not that many people, like not that many people at all. And all of that really became obvious as soon as we started sending out to our email list. And as soon as we did that, it was wild. How many, how many views to the website and also how many just open like our open rate and our click through rate were showing how our audience was reacting to our content. Mary Carreon: In other words. [00:16:00] Social media was not a good, in, like, was not a good indicator of how our content was being received at all because people kind of weren't even receiving it. So going to the newsletter first model proved to be very beneficial for us and our numbers. And also just reaching our freaking audience, which we were barely doing, I guess, on social media, which is, which is wild, you know, for, for a, an account that has a lot of followers, I forget at this exact moment, but we have a ton, double blind, has a ton of followers on, on Instagram. Mary Carreon: We were, we, we get like 500 likes or, you know, maybe like. I don't know. If you're not looking at likes and you're looking at views, like sometimes we get like 16 K views, which, you know, seems good, but also compared to the amount of followers who follow us, it's like not really that great. And we're never reaching new, like a new audience. Mary Carreon: We're always reaching the same audience too, [00:17:00] which is interesting because even with our news, with our, with our email list, we are still reaching new people, which is, which says just how much more fluid that space is. Mm-hmm. And it's because it's, because censorship does not at least yet exist in our inboxes. Mary Carreon: And so therefore email is kind of like the underground, if you will, for this kind of content and this type of material journalism, et cetera. So, so yeah. So it, it, it has been a massive shift. It is required a lot of changes over at double blind. Everything has been very intense and crazy, but it has been absolutely worth it, and it's really exciting that we're still here. Mary Carreon: I'm so grateful that Double-Blind is still around, that we are still able to tell stories and that we are still able to work with writers and nurture writers and nurture the storytelling in this space because it needs to evolve just the same way that the industry and the [00:18:00] culture and everything else is evolving. Joe Moore: Yeah, I think, I think you're spot on like the, when I watch our Instagram account, like, um, I haven't seen the number change from 107 K for two years. Mary Carreon: Absolutely. Same. And, um, same. Joe Moore: Yeah. And you know, I think, I think there's certain kinds of content that could do fine. I think, uh, psychedelic attorney, Robert Rush put up a comment, um, in response to Jack Coline's account getting taken down, um, that had some good analysis, um. Joe Moore: Of the situation. Go ahead. You had No, Mary Carreon: no, I'm just like, you know, I can't, when, when journalists are getting kicked off of these, of these platforms for their stories, for their reported stories, that's like, that is a massive red flag. And that's all I have to say. I mean, we could go into more, more details on that, but that is a [00:19:00] huge red flag. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, for sure. The, I, yeah. And like I'm sure he'll get it back. I'm sure that's not for good, but I think he did. Okay, great. Mary Carreon: I think he did. Yeah. Yeah, I think he did. Joe Moore: Yeah. So thank you. Shout out to Jack. Yeah, thanks Jack. Um, and I think, you know, there's, there's no one with that kind of energy out there. Joe Moore: Um, and I'm excited to see what happens over time with him. Yeah. How he'll unfold. Absolutely unfold. Oh yeah. It's like, um. Crushing the beat. Mary Carreon: Oh yeah, absolutely. Especially the political, the political beat. Like, there's no, there's few people who are really tackling that specific sector, which is like mm-hmm. Mary Carreon: So exciting for a journalist. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so model shifting, like we all have to like, adapt in new ways. Kyle and I are still trying to figure out what we're gonna do. Like maybe it is newsletter first. Like I, I realized that I hadn't been writing for [00:20:00] years, which is problematic, um, in that like, I have a lot of things to say. Mary Carreon: Totally. Joe Moore: And nobody got to hear it. Um, so I started a substack, which I had complicated feelings about honestly. 'cause it's just another. Rich person's platform that I'm, you know, helping them get Andreessen money or whatever. And, you know, so I'm gonna play lightly there, but I will post here and there. Um, I'm just trying to figure it all out, you know, like I've put up a couple articles like this GLP one and Mushrooms article. Mary Carreon: I saw that. I saw that. Really? And honestly, that's a really, like, it's so weird, but I don't, like, it's such a weird little thing that's happening in the space. I wonder, yeah, I wonder, I wonder how that is going to evolve. It's um, you know, a lot of people, I, I briefly kind of wrote about, um, psychedelics and the GLP, is that what it is? Mary Carreon: GLP one. Joe Moore: GLP one. Say Ozempic. Yeah, just, yeah, Ozempic. Yeah, exactly. Mary Carreon: Yeah, exactly. I wrote about [00:21:00] that briefly last year and there were a bunch of people like obviously horrified, which it is kind of horrifying, but also there's a bunch of people who believe that it is extremely cutting edge, which it also is. Mary Carreon: So it's really interesting, really fascinating. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I remember Bernie Sanders saying like, if this drug gets as much traction as it needs to, it will bankrupt Medicaid. I guess that's not really a problem anymore. Um, but, but, uh, but so like naming it real quick, like it changed the way we had to digest things, therefore, like mushrooms get digested differently and, um, some people don't respond in the expected ways. Joe Moore: And then there was some follow up, oh, we, in the regulated model, we just do lemon tech. And then I was like, is that legal in the regulated model? And I, I don't know the answer still. Mm-hmm. Like there was a couple things, you know, if users know to do it, you know, I don't, I don't totally understand the regulated model's so strange in Oregon, Colorado, that like, we really need a couple lawyers opinions. Joe Moore: Right. I think Mary Carreon: yes, of course Joe Moore: the lawyers just gave it a [00:22:00] thumbs up. They didn't even comment on the post, which is, laughs: thanks guys. Um, Joe Moore: but you know, laughs: yeah. You're like, thank you. Joe Moore: Thanks and diversity of opinions. So yeah, there's that. And like GLP ones are so interesting in that they're, one friend reached out and said she's using it in a microdose format for chronic neuroinflammation, which I had never heard of before. Joe Moore: Whoa. And um, I think, you know, articles like that, my intent was to just say, Hey, researchers yet another thing to look at. Like, there's no end to what we need to be looking at. Abso Mary Carreon: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, reporting on this space actually taught me that there's so much just in general that isn't being researched, whether that's in this space, but also beyond and how, um, yeah, just how behind, actually, maybe not, maybe behind isn't the right word, but it kind of feels from my novice and from my novice place in the, in the world and [00:23:00] understanding research, it's. Mary Carreon: Hard for me to see it as anything, but being behind in the research that we all really need, that's really going to benefit humanity. But also, you know, I get that it's because of funding and politics and whatever, whatever, you know, we can go on for days on all of that. Joe Moore: What's the real reason? What's the real reason? Joe Moore: Well, drug war. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Well, yeah, definitely the drug war. Nixon. Yeah. Yes, yes, definitely the drug war. Yeah. I mean, and just the fact that even all of the drug research that happens is, again, through the lens of addiction and drug abuse, so Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Hard to right. Yeah. Um, like ni a is obviously really ridiculous and, and the way they approach this stuff, and Carl Hart illustrates that well, and, Mary Carreon: oh man, yes, he does. Joe Moore: Like, I think Fadiman's lab in Palo Alto got shut down, like 67, 66 or 67, and like that's, you know, that was one of the later ones, Mary Carreon: right? And, Joe Moore: and like, Mary Carreon: and here we are. Joe Moore: The amount of suffering that could have been alleviated if we [00:24:00] had not done this is. Incalculable. Um, yes. Yes. Yeah. Mary Carreon: I mean the, yeah, it's hard to say exactly how specifically it would be different, but it's difficult to also not think that the fentanyl crisis and the opioid addiction rate and situation that is currently like plaguing the, the world, but particularly the United States, it's hard to think that it wouldn't be, like, it wouldn't be a different scenario altogether. Joe Moore: Right, right. Absolutely. Um, and it's, um, it's interesting to speculate about, right? Like Yeah. Yes. Where would we be? And Mary Carreon: I know, I know, I know, I know it is speculation. Absolutely. But it's like hard, as I said, it's hard not to think that things would be different. Joe Moore: Right. Right. Um, I like, there's two kind of quotes, like, um, not, this one's not really a quote. Joe Moore: Like, we haven't really had a [00:25:00] blockbuster psychiatric med since Prozac, and I think that was in the eighties or early nineties, which is terrifying. And then, um, I think this guy's name is James Hillman. He is kinda like a Jungian, um, educator and I think the title of one of his books is, we're a hundred Years Into Psychotherapy and the World is Still a Mess. Joe Moore: And I think like those two things are like, okay, so two different very white people approaches didn't go very far. Yes. Um, yes and laughs: mm-hmm. Joe Moore: Thankfully, I think a lot of people are seeing that. Mm-hmm. Um, finally and kind of putting energy into different ways. Um, Mary Carreon: yeah. Absolutely. I think, yeah, I mean, we need to be exploring the other options at this point because what is currently happening isn't working on many fronts, but including in terms of mental health especially. Mary Carreon: So mm-hmm. We gotta get going. Right? We [00:26:00] gotta get moving. Geez. Joe Moore: Have you all, have you all seen much of the information around chronic pain treatments? Like I'm, I'm a founding board member with the Psychedelics and Pain Association, which has a really fun project. Oh, that's interesting. Mary Carreon: Um, I've seen some of the studies around that and it's endlessly fascinating for obvious, for obvious reasons. Mary Carreon: I, um, we have a writer who's been working for a long time on a story, uh, about the chronic pain that has since. Become an issue for this, for her, for the writer. Mm-hmm. Um, since she had COVID. Mm-hmm. Since, since she is just like, COVID was the onset basically of this chronic pain. And, um, there she attended a psychedelics in pain, chronic pain conference and, uh, that has pretty much like, changed her world. Mary Carreon: Um, well, in terms of just the information that's out there, not necessarily that she's painless, but it's just, you know, offering a, a brand new, a brand new road, a brand new path that is giving her, [00:27:00] um, relief on days when the pain is, uh, substantial. laughs: Yeah. Mary Carreon: So that's interesting. And a lot of people are experiencing that as well. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So there's, there's a really cool set of overlap between the COVID researchers, long COVID researchers and the chronic pain people. 'cause there is Yes. This new science of pain that's yes. Our group, PPA put out like a really robust kind of training, um, for clinicians and researchers and even patients to get more educated. Joe Moore: And we're, we're getting, um, kind of boostered by cluster busters and we're kind of leveraging a lot of what they've done. Mary Carreon: Wait, what is a cluster buster? Joe Moore: Oh gosh. Um, so they're a 5 0 1 C3. Okay. Started with Bob Wald. Okay. Bob Wald is a cluster headache survivor. Oh, oh, oh, Mary Carreon: okay. Got it. Got it. Yes. So they're Joe Moore: the charity that, um, has been really championing, um, cluster headache research because they found a protocol [00:28:00] with mushrooms. Joe Moore: Yes, yes, yes. To eliminate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, this really great, I Mary Carreon: love that. Joe Moore: This really great book was written by a Rutgers, um, I think medical sociologist or anthropologist psychedelic. Love laughs: that. Joe Moore: Joanna Kempner. Cool. Um, and it kind of talks about the whole, um, cluster busters saga, and it was, it was pretty cool. Joe Moore: Nice. So they've been at it for about as long as maps. Um, oh wow. Maybe a little earlier. Maybe a little later. Mary Carreon: I love that. Cool. I mean, yeah, that's really great. That's really great. Joe Moore: So we're copying their playbook in a lot of ways and Cool. We about to be our own 5 0 1 C3 and, um, nice. And that should be really fun. Joe Moore: And, uh, the next conference is coming up at the end of next month if people wanna check that out. Psychedelic. Nice. Mary Carreon: Nice, nice, nice. Cool. Joe Moore: Yeah, so that, like, how I leaned into that was not only did I get a lot of help from chronic pain with psychedelics and going to Phish shows and whatever, um, you know, I, and overuse for sure helped me somehow. Joe Moore: [00:29:00] Um, God bless. Yeah. But I, I like it because it breaks us out of the psychiatry only frame for psychedelics. Mm. And starts to make space for other categories. Mm-hmm. Is one of the bigger reasons I like it. Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Which, like, we need to be, we need to, we, no one else is gonna do it for us. We like the people in the space who are finding new uses for these substances need to be creating those, those pathways and those new niches for people to then begin studying, et cetera, and exploring and yeah. Mary Carreon: Making, making a proper avenue for, Joe Moore: right, right. And, you know, um, I don't know that this is a Maha thing, so No, I'm going there, I guess, but like, how do we kind of face squarely America and the world's drinking problems? Not [00:30:00] knowing what we know now about alcohol, you know what I mean? And then like, what are the alternatives? Joe Moore: You know, some, some writers out there on substack are very firm that everybody needs to not do any substance. And like all psychedelics are super bad and drugs are evil, you know, famous sub stackers that I won't name. But you know, like what is the alternative? Like, I, like we have to have something beyond alcohol. Joe Moore: And I think you've found some cannabis helpful for that. Mary Carreon: Yeah, I, you know, it's, it's interesting because it's, there are, there's definitely an argument to be made for the power of these substances in helping, I don't wanna, I don't wanna say curb, but definitely reduce the symptoms of, uh, wanting to use or to drink or to consume a specific substance. Mary Carreon: There's obviously there is an argument to be made. There are, there is ano another camp of people who are kind [00:31:00] of in the, in the, in the, in the realm of using a drug to get off of a drug isn't how you do it. However, and, and I do, it depends on the individual. It depends on the individual and the, and how that person is engaging with their own addiction. Mary Carreon: I think for whether or not the substances work, like whether psychedelics work to help somebody kind of get off of alcohol or get off of cocaine or stop using opioids or, you know, et cetera. Mm-hmm. However, I think like, when the situation is so dire, we need to be trying everything. And if that means, like, if, like, you know, if you look at the studies for like smoking cessation or alcohol use, mushrooms do help, psilocybin does help with that. Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. But, you know, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that also need to happen. There's a lot of things that also need to happen in order for those, uh, that relief to maintain and to stick and to, uh, really guide [00:32:00] somebody off of those substances. Mm-hmm. It's not just the substance itself. Joe Moore: Right. So I'm, I'm explicitly talking like recreational alternatives, right. Like how do I Yeah. On per minute, like, am Anitas becoming helpful? Yeah, yeah. Are helpful and Yeah. Yeah. I think like even, um, normal. What we might call like normal American alcohol use. Like Yeah. That's still like, quite carcinogenic and like, um, absolutely. Joe Moore: We're kind of trying to spend less as a country on cancer treatments, which I hope is true. Then how do we, how do we develop things that are, you know, not just abstinence only programs, which we know for sure aren't great. Mary Carreon: Yeah. They don't work. Yeah. I don't, it's, it's difficult. Mm-hmm. It's difficult to say. Mary Carreon: I mean mm-hmm. I don't know. Obviously I, I, well, maybe it's not obvious at all for people who don't know me, but, you know, I exist in a, I exist in, in a world where recreational use is like, it's like hard to define what recreational use is because if we are using this, if we are using mushrooms or LSD even, or MDMA, [00:33:00] you know, there are so many, there's a lot of the therapy that can happen through the use of these substances, even if we're not doing it, you know, with a blindfold on or whatever and yeah, I think like. Mary Carreon: There is a decent swap that can happen if you, if you are somebody who doesn't wanna be, you know, having like three beers a night, or if you are somebody who's like, you know, maybe not trying to have like a bottle of wine at a night or something like that, you know, because like Americans drink a lot and a lot of the way that we drink is, um, you know, like we don't see it as alcoholism. Mary Carreon: Even though it could be, it could be that's like a difficult Joe Moore: potentially subclinical, but right there. Mary Carreon: Um, yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's, um, we don't see it as that because everybody, a lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people drink like that, if that makes sense. If you know mm-hmm. If you, if you get what I'm, if you get what I'm saying. Mary Carreon: So, you know, I do think that there's a lot of benefit that, I don't [00:34:00] know, having, like a, having a mushroom, having a mushroom experience can really help. Or sometimes even like low dose, low doses of mushrooms can also really help with, like, with the. Desire to reach for a drink. Yeah, totally. And, and AMS as well. Mary Carreon: I know that that's also helping people a lot too. And again, outside of the clinical framework. Joe Moore: Yeah. I'm, a lot of people project on me that I'm just like constantly doing everything all the time and I'm, I'm the most sober I've been since high school. You know, like it's bonkers that like Yeah. Um, and you know, probably the healthiest event since high school too. Joe Moore: Yeah. But it's fa it's fascinating that like, you know, psychedelics kind of helped get here and even if it was like For sure something that didn't look like therapy. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I think, I think most of us here in this space are getting projected on as to like, you know, being like what Normies would consider druggies or something, or that we are just like, you know, high all the time. Mary Carreon: Um, [00:35:00] I know that that is definitely something that I face regularly, like out in the world. Um, but, you know, I would also, I would also argue that. Uh, like mushrooms have completely altered my approach to health, my approach to mental health, and not even having to consume that, you know, that substance in order or that, you know, that fun fungi, in order for me to like tap into taking care of my mental health or approaching better, uh, food options, et cetera. Mary Carreon: It's kind of like what these, it's like how the mushrooms continue to help you even after you have taken them. Like the messages still keep coming through if you work with them in that capacity. Right. And yeah, and also same with, same with LSD too. LSD has also kind my experiences with that have also guided me towards a healthier path as well. Mary Carreon: I, I understand that maybe for some people it's not that way, but, um, for me that substance is a medicine as well, [00:36:00] or it can be. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so. What are, what are some things popping up these days about like US drug policy that's like getting exciting for you? Like, are you feeling feeling like a looming optimism about a, a major shift? Joe Moore: Are you kind of like cautiously optimistic with some of the weird kind of mandatory minimum stuff that's coming up or? Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that there was a huge, a, a pretty huge shift over at the DEA and I wish I remembered, I wish I remembered his name. The new guy who's now, I believe the head of the DEA, I don't know enough information about it to really feel a way. Mary Carreon: However, I don't think that he's necessarily going to be serving us as a community here, uh, in the psychedelic space. I, you know, I just don't think that that's something that we can ever depend on with the DEA. Uh, I also don't think that [00:37:00] the DEA is necessarily going to be. All that helpful to cannabis, like the cannabis space either. Mary Carreon: Um, I know that, that Trump keeps kind of discussing or, or dangling a carrot around the rescheduling of cannabis. Um, for, he's been, he's been, but he's doing it a lot more now. He's been talking about it more recently. Uh, he says like, in the next like couple weeks that he's going to have some kind of decision around that, allegedly. Mary Carreon: But we will see also, I'm not sure that it's going to necessarily help anybody if we reschedule two. Uh, what from schedule one to schedule th two, three, schedule three. Joe Moore: Either way it's like not that useful. Right. Exactly. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, um, just going to probably cause a lot more red tape and a lot of confusion for the state rec markets. Mary Carreon: So it's like something that we, it's like only ridden with unintentional, unintentional consequences. Unintended consequences. Mm-hmm. Because no one knows how it's really going to [00:38:00] impact anything, um, if, if at all. But I don't know. It's hard, it's hard to imagine that there won't be any, uh, like more complex regulatory issues for business owners and also probably consumers as well. Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. This guy's name's Terry Cole. Mary Carreon: Oh, the new DEA guy. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I don't know much about him. Terry. Yeah. Terry, I would love to chat. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Terry, let's talk. I'm sure your people Joe Moore: are watching. Yeah. So like, just let him know. We wanna chat. Yeah. We'll come to DC and chat it out. Um, yeah. It's, um, but yeah, I, Carl Hart's solution to me makes like almost most of the sense in the world to just end the scheduling system Absolutely. Joe Moore: And start building some sort of infrastructure to keep people safe. That's clearly not what we have today. Mary Carreon: No. But building an infrastructure around the health and wellness and uh, safety of [00:39:00] people is the exact opposite system that we have currently right now. Because also the scheduling system has a lot to do with the incarceration in the United States and the criminal just, or the criminal system. Mary Carreon: So, so yeah, like we can't disentangle the two really. Joe Moore: It just started, um, I feel negligent on this. Uh, synergetic press put out a book like a year or two ago called Body Autonomy. Mm-hmm. Um, did that one come across your desk at all? Mm-hmm. No. I wish basically contributed. Oh, nice. A number of people. So it's both like, um. Joe Moore: Drug policy commentary and then like sex work commentary. Oh, nice. And it was like high level, like love that really, really incredible love that detailed science based conversations, which is not what we have around this. Like, that doesn't make me feel good. So you should go to jail kind of stuff. Or like, I'm gonna humiliate you for real though. Joe Moore: Ticket. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God. Uh, when you think about it like that, it just really also shows [00:40:00] just the uh, um, the level at which religion has also kind of fundamentally infused itself into the scheduling system, but also our laws, you know, like what you just said, this like, shame-based, I'm going to embarrass you and make you into a criminal when you know actually you are a law for the most part, a law abiding citizen, with the exception of this one thing that you're doing for. Mary Carreon: A, your survival and or your, like, your feeling good, wanting to feel good addressing pain. Um, there's a large, uh, like noise coming out of the front yard of my house right now. Hold on. Just a, it doesn't sound too bad. It doesn't sound too bad. Okay. Okay, good. Not at all. Not at all. Okay. Yeah, I had Joe Moore: people working on my roof all day and somehow it worked out. Joe Moore: Oh, good. Um, yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it's fascinating and I, I've been coming around like, I, I identify as politically confused, [00:41:00] um, and I feel like it's the most honest way I can be. Um, Mary Carreon: I am also politically confused these days, impossible to align with any, uh, party or group currently in existence at this exact juncture in American history. Joe Moore: I can't find any that I want to throw my dice in with. Nah. This idea of like fucking way being. Like what is the most humane way to do government as a way it's been put to me recently. And that's interesting. So it comes down to like coercion, are we caring for people, things like that. And um, I don't think we're doing it in a super humane way right now. Mary Carreon: Um, we, yeah, I am pretty sure that even if there was, I mean, I think that even if we looked at the data, the data would support that we are not doing it in a humane way. Joe Moore: So Mary Carreon: unfortunately, and Joe Moore: you know, this whole tech thing, like the tech oligarch thing, you kind of dropped at the beginning and I think it's worth bringing that back because we're, we're on all [00:42:00] these tech platforms. Joe Moore: Like that's kind of like how we're transmitting it to people who are participating in these other platforms and like, you know, it's not all meta. I did turn on my personal Facebook, so everybody's watching it there. I hope. Um, see if that count gets, Mary Carreon: um, Joe Moore: but you know, this idea that a certain number of private corporations kind of control. Joe Moore: A huge portion of rhetoric. Um, and you know, I think we probably got Whiffs of this when Bezos bought Washington Post and then Yes. You know, Musk with X and like yes. You know, is this kind of a bunch of people who don't necessarily care about this topic and the way we do, and they're like in larger topics too about humane government and like, you know, moving things in good directions. Joe Moore: Um, I don't know, thoughts on that rift there as it relates to anything you, wherever you wanna go. Yeah. Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I don't think that they are looking at, I don't think that they are looking [00:43:00] at it the way that we are. I don't think that they can see it from their vantage point. Um, I think that like, in the, in a similar way that so many CEOs who run businesses have no fucking clue about what's actually happening in their businesses and the actual workers and, and employees of their businesses can tell them in more detail. Mary Carreon: Far more detail about what's actually happening on the, on the floor of their own business. Uh, I think that it is something like that. However, that's not to say that, you know, these, these CEOs who employ people who build the A algorithm are obviously guided to create the limitations on us as people who speak about drugs, et cetera, and are creating a algorithm that ultimately is looking at things in a very blanket way in terms of, uh, like we're probably seen on the same level as like drug dealers, if that makes sense. Mary Carreon: Which is obviously a much, you know, there's, [00:44:00] it's a very different thing. Um, so, you know, there's like these CEOs are giving directions to their employees to ultimately create systems that harm. Information flow and inform and, and like the information health of, of platforms and of just people in general. Mary Carreon: So it's hard to say because there's nuance there, obviously, but I would bet you that someone like Elon Musk doesn't really have a full grasp as to the, the nuances and details of what's even happening within, on the ground floor of his businesses. Because that's like, not how CEOs in America run, run, and operate. Mary Carreon: They're stupid companies. So, so yeah. And I feel like that, like, that's across the board, like that's across the board. That's how I, that's probably how Zuck is operating with Meta and Facebook, et cetera. And yeah, just likewise and across, across the whole, [00:45:00] across the whole spectrum. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, um, a thing. Joe Moore: Then as the people like, we need to keep looking at how can we keep each other informed. And that's kind of circling back to drug journalism like we do and like, um, other, other sorts of journalism that doesn't really get the press it deserves. Right. And I've been getting far more content that I find more valuable off of tragically back on Zucks platform like IG is getting me so much interesting content from around the world that no major outlet's covering. Mary Carreon: That's so interesting. Like what? Like what would you say? Joe Moore: Oh, um, uh, certain, um, violent situations overseas. Oh, oh, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, you know, that America's paying for, so like, you know, I just don't love that I don't have a good, you know, journalistic source I can [00:46:00] point to, to say, hey, like right. Joe Moore: These writers with names, with addresses, like, and offices here. Yes. You know, they did the work and they're held, you know, they're ethical journalists, so yes. You can trust them. Right. You know what I mean? Yes, Mary Carreon: yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, all of this makes everything so much harder for determining, like, the censorship specifically makes it so much harder for the people to determine like, what's real, what's not. Mary Carreon: Because, because of exactly what you just said. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, we are, we are basically what that means, like what is required of the people and people who are consuming information is becoming a smart consumer and being able to determine what's real, what's not. How can we trust this individual? Mary Carreon: How can we not, which isn't analysis process that all of us need to be sharpening every single day, especially with the advent of AI and, uh, how quickly this, this type of content is coming at all of us. Like, especially if you're on TikTok, which many of us are, you know, like information comes flying at you 3000 miles an hour, and it's sometimes [00:47:00] really difficult to determine what's real, what's not, because AI is. Mary Carreon: AI is not where it's going to be, and it still is in its nascent phase. However, it's still pretty fucking good and it's still very confusing on there. So, so again, like the media literacy of the people needs to be sharpened every single day. We cannot be on there, we cannot be on the internet existing. Mary Carreon: That everything that we are seeing is real. Whether that's about, you know, these, um, the violence overseas, uh, happening at the hands of the United States, whether that is, uh, even drug information like, you know, et cetera, all of all of it. Or just like news about something happening at Yellowstone National Park or something that is happening in the, uh, at like. Mary Carreon: Um, like potential riots also happening at protests in downtown la, et cetera. Like all, all of it, we need to be so careful. And I think what that also, like, one way that [00:48:00] we can adjust and begin to develop our media literacy skills is talking to people maybe who are there, reaching out to people who are saying that they were there and asking them questions, and also sussing that out. Mary Carreon: You know, obviously we can't do that for all situations, but definitely some of them. Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Like, Joe Moore: um, a quick pivot. Mm-hmm. Were you at PS 25? Mary Carreon: Yes, I was. What did I think? Uh, you know, I, I was running around like crazy at this one. I felt like I didn't even have a second to breathe and I feel like I didn't even have a second to really see anybody. I was like, worry. I was jumping from one stage to the next. Mary Carreon: However, I would say, uh, one of, one of the things that I have said and how I felt about it was that I felt that this, this event was smaller than it was two years ago. And I preferred that I preferred the reduction in size just because it was, uh, less over, less overwhelming [00:49:00] in an, in an already very overwhelming event. Mary Carreon: Um, but I thought that from the panels that I did see that everyone did a really great job. I thought that maps, you know, it's impressive that maps can put on an event like that. Um, I also was very cognizant that the suits were there in full effect and, uh, you know, but that's not unusual. That's how it was last time as well. Mary Carreon: And, um, I felt that there was Mary Carreon: a, uh, like the, the, the level of excitement and the level of like opportunity and pro, like the prosperous. The like, prospect of prosperity coming down the pipeline like tomorrow, you know, kind of vibe was different than last time. Mm-hmm. Which that was very present at the one, two years ago, uh, which was the last PS psychedelic science. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Um, anyways. Yeah. But it was, you know, it was really nice to see everybody. [00:50:00] I feel like in-person events is a great way for everybody in the psychedelic space to be interacting with each other instead of like keyboard warrioring against each other, you know, uh, over the computer and over the internet. Mary Carreon: I think that, um, yeah, uh, being in person is better than being fighting each other over the internet, so, yeah. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. People seem to be a little bit more civil in person. Mary Carreon: Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And I think that that is something that we all need to be considering more often, and also inviting people from across the aisle to your events and creating peace, because in person it's a little different than it is. Mary Carreon: When you have the opportunity to, uh, yeah, like keyboard attack someone over the internet, it's like, yeah. It's just so silly. So silly. We look like fools. Like we look like absolute idiots doing that. And you know what? I cannot sit here and say that I haven't looked like an idiot. So, you know, it's like I'm not, I'm not talking from like a high horse over here, but, but you know, it's like, it's [00:51:00] better when it's in person. Mary Carreon: I feel like there's like more civil engagements that we can all have. Joe Moore: It's practice, you know? Yeah. We're learning. Yeah. We are. We should be learning, including us, and yes, of course. Um, I, I play a subtler game these days and, uh, you know, I, I, I, it's better when we all look a lot better in my opinion, because yes, we can inform policy decisions, we can be the ones helping inform really important things about how these things should get implemented and absolutely right. Joe Moore: Like, Mary Carreon: absolutely. Yeah, it does. It does. Nobody, any service, especially these medicines, especially these sacraments, especially these plants, these molecules, et cetera, if we are all sitting here fighting each other and like calling each other names and trying to dunk on one another, when like in reality, we are also all kind of pushing for the same thing more or less. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So a thing that [00:52:00] I, it's a, it's kind of a, I, I had a great time at PS 25. I have no, no real complaints. I just wish I had more time. Yeah, same. Um, same. Yeah. Our booth was so busy. It was so fun. Just good. And it was like, good. I, I know. It was really good. I'm trying to say it out loud. I get to talk at the conference before Rick did. laughs: Oh, oh, Joe Moore: the morning show they put us on at like seven 30 in the morning or something crazy. Oh my god. It was early. I dunno if it was seven 30. Mary Carreon: That's so early. That's so early. Joe Moore: Yeah, right. Like that's crazy. I got zero nightlife in That's okay. Um, I was not, I was there for work. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah. I was Joe Moore: jealous. I didn't party, but you know, whatever. Joe Moore: Yeah, yeah. Mary Carreon: I did not party this time really in the same way that I did at PS 20. Was it 2023? Joe Moore: 23, yeah. 23. I only stay up till 11 one night in 23. Nice. Mary Carreon: Okay. Um, okay. Joe Moore: So I behaved, I have a pattern of behaving. 'cause I like That's good. I'm so bent outta shape inside going into these things. I'm like, I know, I know. Joe Moore: And, and I'm like, oh, all [00:53:00] my friends are gonna be there. It's gonna be great. And then it's like, yeah. It's mostly friends and only a little bit of stress. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, Mary Carreon: yeah. I had a, I had a great time. It was really good seeing everybody again. Like you, I wish that I had more time with people. Like there are people that I like didn't even see who are my friends, Joe Moore: so, which Yeah. Joe Moore: Which is sad. That's like a subtext in, in like the notes coming away from 25. Is that the, um, American Right, if we wanna call it that, is very interested in this stuff. Oh yeah. Like the Texas establishment. Oh yeah. Um, the Texas contingent, right? They're deep. They're real deep. Mm-hmm. I have, um, Mary Carreon: let's talk about that more. Mary Carreon: Yeah. So Joe Moore: it's optimistic in, in some sense that psychedelic science is getting funded more. By states. 'cause the feds aren't stepping up. Right. I love that. Right. Yeah. Like, Hey feds, look what we can do. And you can't somehow, and [00:54:00] then, um, we'll see if state rights stays around for a while longer, maybe, maybe not. Joe Moore: And then the other part is like, is there a slippery slope given the rhetoric around addiction and the rise in interest in iboga for compulsory addiction treatment with psychedelics or, or compulsory mental health treatments with psychedelics because of the recent, it's illegal to be a person without housing. Joe Moore: Um, and you're gonna get put in treatment. Mm. Like, that's now a thing. So like, I don't know, I don't think forced treatment's good at all. I, and I don't think like, um, like the data is something like 15% effective, maybe less. Right. Right. It's not a good use of money. I don't know. We're, let's, I. You can go there if you want, and riff on that, or if you wanna talk about like, Texas, um, Arizona more generally. Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I will just say this, I also don't really believe that forced treatment is like good, you [00:55:00] know, data Joe Moore: says it's bad. Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I also, yeah, I mean, it's like, I don't know. Yeah, that's, it's complex. It's a complex issue. I also don't think it's good, but I also do think that we need a much better framework and foundation for like, if people do want the help, helping them get it. Mary Carreon: Much more easily and in a way that's going to be beneficial for them. Um, and I don't think that that system or that pathway currently exists as we saw in, uh, with, with, um, measure 1 0 9 and the failure of measure 1 0 9 or, or was it Measure 1 0 10, 1 10, measure one 10 in Oregon. Joe Moore: But did you see the response yesterday or two days ago? Joe Moore: No, I didn't. No, I didn't. I'll I'll send it to you later. Okay. So the university did the research, um, Portland State University did the research Yes. And said, Hey, look, there was actually 20 other things that were higher priority. Like that actually influenced this increase in overdoses, not our law. Mary Carreon: Right. Mary Carreon: Yes. It was really COVID for Okay. [00:56:00] Like for, yeah. Right. Absolutely. Also, there was not a. Like there was not a framework in place that allowed people to get off the street should they want to, or you know, like, like you just can't really have a, all drugs are legal, or small amounts of drugs are legal without also offering or creating a structure for people to get help. Mary Carreon: That, that's, you can't do one without the other. Unfortunately. That's just like a, that's faulty from the start. So that's all I'll really say about that. And I don't think that that had fully been implemented yet, even though it was something that wasn't ideal for the, um, for the, for the measure. And I believe it was measure one 10, not measure 1 0 9, to be clear. Mary Carreon: Measure one 10. Um, yes, but confirmed one 10 confirmed one 10, yes. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, uh, that's, you know, that's kind of what I'll say. That's what I'll, that's where I'll leave that portion. Mm-hmm. You know? Uh, but yeah, forced treatment. I don't know. [00:57:00] We can't be forcing, forcing people to do stuff like that. Mary Carreon: I don't know. It's not gonna, it's, yeah, it doesn't seem Joe Moore: very humane. Mary Carreon: Yeah. No. And it also probably isn't gonna work, so, Joe Moore: right. Like, if we're being conservative with money, like, I like tote, like to put on Republican boots once in a while and say like, what does this feel like? And then say like, okay, if we're trying to spend money smartly, like where do we actually get where we want to be? Joe Moore: And then sometimes I put on my cross and I'm like, okay, if I'm trying to be Christian, like where is the most, like, what is the most Christian behavior here in terms of like, what would the, you know, buddy Jesus want to do? And I'm just like, okay, cool. Like, that doesn't seem right. Like those things don't seem to align. Joe Moore: And when we can find like compassionate and efficient things, like isn't that the path? Um, Mary Carreon: compassionate and t. Yeah, even, I don't know, I don't know if it looks lefty these days, but Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Yeah. [00:58:00] Yeah. Um, yeah, it's complicated. It's complicated, you know, but going back, kind of, kind of pivoting and going back to what you were talking about in regards to the subtext, some of the subtext of like, you know, where psychedelic medicine is currently getting its most funding. Mary Carreon: You know, I do believe that that was an undercurrent at psychedelic science. It was the, the iboga conversation. And there's, there's a lot, there's a lot happening with the Iboga conversation and the Iboga conversation and, um, I am really trying to be open to listening to everyone's messages that are currently involved in. Mary Carreon: That rise of that medicine right now? Um, obviously, yeah, we will see, we'll see how it goes. There's obviously a lot of people who believe that this is not the right move, uh, just because there's been no discussions with, uh, the Wii people of West Africa and, you know, because of [00:59:00] that, like we are not talking to the indigenous people about how we are using their medicine, um, or medicine that does like that comes from, that comes from Africa. Mary Carreon: Um, also with that, I know that there is a massive just devastating opioid crisis here that we need to do something about and drug crisis that we need to be helping with. And this medicine is something that can really, really, really help. Um, I find it absolutely fascinating that the right is the most interested party in moving all of this forward, like psychedelic medicine forward. Mary Carreon: And I, I currently have my popcorn and I am watching and I am eating it, and I am going to witness whatever goes down. Um, but I'm, I, I hope that, uh, things are moving in a way that is going to be beneficial for the people and also not completely leave behind the indigenous communities where this medicine comes from. Joe Moore: [01:00:00] Mm-hmm. Mary Carreon: We'll see how it goes. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. It Joe Moore: would be lovely if we can figure it out. Um, I know, and I think, uh, Lucy Walker has a film coming out on Iboga. Mm. I got to see it at Aspen, um, symposium last summer, and it was really good. Mm. So I'm sure it'll be cut different, but it's so good and it tells that story. Joe Moore: Okay. Um, in a helpful way. I'm gonna, I, yeah. I always say I'm gonna do this. I'm like, if I have space, maybe I'll be able to email her and see if we can screen it in Colorado. But it's like a brilliant film. Yeah. Cool. This whole reciprocity conversation is interesting and challenging. And so challenging being one of the few countries that did not sign onto the Nagoya protocol. Joe Moore: Absolutely. We're not legally bound, you know, some countries are Mary Carreon: I know. Yes, yes, yes. So Joe Moore: we're, you know, how do we do that? How do we do that skillfully? We still haven't done it with, um, first Nations folks around their [01:01:00] substances. Um, I think mushrooms are a little flexible and account of them being global, um, from Africa to Ireland and beyond. Joe Moore: And, but you know, that's, we still want to give a nod to the people in Mexico for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, it's, I had some fun commentary there that I would love to flesh out someday. Uh, but yeah, it's not for today. Mary Carreon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there's, yeah, there's obviously, there's obviously a lot with the conversation of reciprocity here and, um, I know, I, I don't know. Mary Carreon: I, I, what I do know is that we need to be listening to the indigenous people, not just listening to them second, like secondhand or listening to them, uh, once we have moved something forward, like actually consulting with them as the process goes. And that, you know, the way that both parties move, indigenous folks and, uh, western folks move, uh, are at inherently different paces. Mary Carreon: And, [01:02:00] um, I just hope, and I wish, and I, I hope, I just hope that, uh, Western what, like the Western party, the western folks who are diving into these medicines. Slow the fuck down and listen and just are able to at least make one right move. Just one, just like you. Like it's, doesn't have to be this, it doesn't have to be that hard. Mary Carreon: Although the pace of capitalism usually propels, uh, the western folks at, at a much quicker rate than, u

In this episode I return to The New Polytheism by David Miller, focusing exlusively on the the essay in the appendix by James Hillman called Psychology: Monotheistic or Polytheistic. This essay discusses how our theological inclinations affect our approach to psychoanalysis.

Stephen Aizenstat, Ph.D., is the founder of Pacifica Graduate Institute, Dream Tending, and the Academy of Imagination. For more than 35 years, he has explored the power of dreams through depth psychology. He has collaborated with Joseph Campbell, Marion Woodman, Robert Johnson, James Hillman, and Native elders worldwide. He conducts dreamwork and imagination seminars throughout the US, Europe, and Asia. For more, visit dreamtending.com.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-x-zone-radio-tv-show--1078348/support.Please note that all XZBN radio and/or television shows are Copyright © REL-MAR McConnell Meda Company, Niagara, Ontario, Canada – www.rel-mar.com. For more Episodes of this show and all shows produced, broadcasted and syndicated from REL-MAR McConell Media Company and The 'X' Zone Broadcast Network and the 'X' Zone TV Channell, visit www.xzbn.net. For programming, distribution, and syndication inquiries, email programming@xzbn.net.We are proud to announce the we have launched TWATNews.com, launched in August 2025.TWATNews.com is an independent online news platform dedicated to uncovering the truth about Donald Trump and his ongoing influence in politics, business, and society. Unlike mainstream outlets that often sanitize, soften, or ignore stories that challenge Trump and his allies, TWATNews digs deeper to deliver hard-hitting articles, investigative features, and sharp commentary that mainstream media won't touch.These are stories and articles that you will not read anywhere else.Our mission is simple: to expose corruption, lies, and authoritarian tendencies while giving voice to the perspectives and evidence that are often marginalized or buried by corporate-controlled media. 

In this episode I look at David Miller's insightful examination of polytheism in sociology, psychology, and philosophy. I focus on his discussions of Niebuhr, Cornford, and Heidegger.

Despite all this good stuff, I have been feeling a little flat recently. It comes to us all. Much unrealised. Everything in the rear view mirror. I'm too asleep, bad-tempered, just irritable at the world. James Hillman told me it's important to just ‘decompose' every now and then. Don't make everything alright. Let Saturn and his dry, difficult, Beckett-like thoughts own the house for a minute. Let things get sepia toned. Draw the curtains. Inspect the ruins.In the words of an old Welsh poem:What I loved in boyhood, I now hate:A girl, a stranger, a gray horse.But love Hillman as I do, I can't stay there forever (neither did he really, but he worked hard and brilliantly on the legitimacy of melancholy).And it's in this kind of mood that God gives me a talking to. Walks me over to my large-font-sized Bible and places his substantial, clean-nailed finger on the story of Moses and God gently sayeth:Suck it up buttercup. — Martin Shaw 

What can a centuries-old fairy tale teach us about our astrological journey? In this illuminating conversation, jazz musician and professor Ryan Nielsen explores the Grimm Brothers' tale "Allerleira" (Thousand Furs) as a profound map of psychological development through the first six astrological houses.Ryan shares his personal path from a rigid religious upbringing to discovering the healing language of depth psychology and astrology. Drawing on Marian Woodman's work, we unpack how fairy tales can guide us through healing what Woodman calls "patriarchal consciousness" – defined not as gender but as any culture devoted to power and perfection at the expense of authenticity.The story follows a princess who flees her father's kingdom disguised in animal furs, finding refuge in a castle kitchen where she works with ashes and soup-making – beautifully illustrating the sixth house themes of humble service, repetition, and alchemical transformation. Through three magical dresses (golden as the sun, silver as the moon, bright as stars), we witness the integration of solar and lunar consciousness necessary for wholeness.This episode illuminates why regression isn't failure but often necessary healing, how cycles matter more than linear progress, and why the "woodshed" work (as jazz musicians call practice) prepares us for authentic relating. As Jung reminds us, "Real consciousness has to be based upon life experienced. Just talking about things is not enough."Whether you're curious about astrology, psychological development, or simply love fairy tales, this conversation offers rich insights into the soul's journey toward authenticity and belonging – and how sometimes, we must don a mantle of a thousand furs before we can reveal our true cosmic nature.* Writeup generated by Buzzsprout AICover Art: Illustration from p. 281 of The Green Fairy Book (1902) by Andrew LangRyan's New Website is yourveryownlife.comReferencesAuthors / ThinkersBessel van der Kolk – The Body Keeps the ScoreGabor Maté – When the Body Says No / The Myth of NormalPeter Levine – Waking the Tiger: Healing TraumaDonald Kalsched – The Inner World of TraumaMarion Dunlea – BodyDreaming in the Treatment of Developmental TraumaMarion Woodman – Leaving My Father's House / The Pregnant Virgin Liz Greene – archetypal/psychological astrology James Hillman – archetypal psychologyBrian Clark – astrologer, mythologist, soulful astrology AstrosynthesisMelanie Reinhart – Chiron and the Healing Journey Anne Baring – The Myth of the Goddess / writings on lunar consciousnessMyths / Fairy TalesAllerleirauh (Aller Lira) – Grimm Brothers tale (“Thousandfurs” or “All-Kinds-of-Fur”)Handless Maiden – Grimm BrothersCinderella (Aschenputtel) – Grimm BrothersThe Frog King – Grimm BrothersThe Three Feathers – Grimm BrothersAriadne's Thread (Greek myth, labyrinth and Minotaur)Dionysus & Folis (Centaur's jar of wine) – myth of Hercules and the centaurs Podcast Musician: Marlia CoeurPlease consider becoming a Patron to support the show!Go to OnTheSoulsTerms.com for more.

  The Visionary Activist Show turns 30! We re-play the first-ever Visionary Activist Show (September 5, 1996) with James Hillman… (double Aries liberating Jungian psychologist) about the importance of ‘growing down' into one's self, recognizing demonic mythological possession at play, and awakening the imagination of everyone to dream the desirable world into being… a riveting relevant resonant romp, with which Caroline riffs for the remainder of the hour. Let's get down! Completely lively and mega-pertinent for us all now.       *Woof*Woof*Wanna*Play?!?* · www.CoyoteNetworkNews.com · The Visionary Activist Show on Patreon The post The Visionary Activist Show – 30 Years of Visionary Activist appeared first on KPFA.

After 12 years of working in corporate advertising, Case Kenny launched a podcast, New Mindset, Who Dis? as a personal experiment. In its first month, the show drew 57,000 downloads, yet Case kept it hidden, afraid it didn't fit his professional image. Over time, he embraced his vulnerability, created bestselling guided journals, and built a brand helping millions live more optimistic and mindful lives. In this episode, Case joins Ilana to share how a side project turned into a multi-million-dollar portfolio career, why regret is his decision-making compass, and how choosing the right words can change the way you live. Case Kenny is an author, entrepreneur, and host of the globally recognized podcast, New Mindset, Who Dis?. Known for his work in mindfulness and personal growth, he has built a multi-million-dollar brand through writing, guided journals, and speaking engagements. In this episode, Ilana and Case will discuss: (00:00) Introduction (01:42) From Language Studies to Corporate Advertising (05:07) Starting the Podcast Without Clarity (07:43) Overcoming the Fear of Vulnerability (09:04) Stepping Fully into a New Identity (14:14) When Passion Becomes a Business (16:53) COVID, Journals, and a Turning Point in Sales (18:10) Why Journaling Works and How to Start (25:01) Building a Connected Portfolio Career (27:40) Business Challenges and Six-Figure Losses (33:09) Battling Expectations, Regret, and Trust as a Default (42:10) Defining Mindfulness and Advice to Case's Younger Self Case Kenny is an author, entrepreneur, and host of the globally recognized podcast, New Mindset, Who Dis?, a podcast with tens of millions of downloads. Known for his work in mindfulness and personal growth, he has built a multi-million-dollar brand through writing, guided journals, and speaking engagements. His work has been featured on The Today Show, Good Morning America, Forbes, and NBC. Connect with Case: Case's Website: casekenny.com Case's LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/casekenny/ Case's Instagram: instagram.com/case.kenny Case's YouTube: youtube.com/c/CaseKenny Resources Mentioned: Case's Podcast, New Mindset, Who Dis?:  pod.link/1383599078 The Opposite of Settling by Case Kenny: https://www.amazon.com/Opposite-Settling-Everything-Without-Losing/dp/1401995918 The Soul's Code by James Hillman: https://www.amazon.com/Souls-Code-James-Hillman/dp/0517271036 That's Bold of You by Case Kenny: https://www.amazon.com/Thats-Bold-You-Thrive-Vibrant/dp/B0BRDFLJNZ Leap Academy: Ready to make the LEAP in your career? There is a NEW WAY for professionals to fast-track their careers and leap to bigger opportunities. Reserve your 24-HOUR PASS today at https://webinar.leapacademy.com/24hr-pass1

The poem I read at the beginning called Crying For A Vision at Ghost Ranch will be part of a new collection called Where Do Dreams Come From? The poem that Simon reads is A Man Lost By A River by Michael Blumenthal from the anthology, The Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart, edited by Robert Bly, James Hillman, and Michael Meade. The poem Ben reads is one of his own and it is called We Need Artists Today. If you want to know more about the Male Journey - the Men's work we have all been involved in go to https://www.malejourney.org.uk/ With massive thanks to Ben and Simon. Here is Ben's - Poet Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/BenBurnsPoet/ Here is Simon's Agent's page https://hatchtalent.co.uk/actors/simon-bubb/ 

This is a discussion about ideas in my podbook 'Why Your Life Really Matters' available as audio podcast and video on YouTube.  Ryan's YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/@Centerforcreativechoice?si=yPxXbqFBLrAyh89Q Ryan J. Holsapple, Ph.D. holds a Ph.D. in Depth Psychology from Pacifica Graduate Institute, Ryan's areas of expertise are Self Soul Spirit psychology (an applied model of human development and authentic living), genetic personality psychology, consciousness studies, and applied existential and phenomenological philosophy. Ryan is passionate about ensuring the Self Soul Spirit model's continuation in facilitation with clients, educational training with groups, and publishing research. Ryan's Ph.D. work at Pacifica strongly emphasized the work of prominent psychologists such as Carl Jung and James Hillman.

In this episode Laura and Maria meet with the renown Laurence Hillman to explore how astrology and dream interpretation can work together. They look at the world of archetypes, as developed by the hallmark theories of Laurence's famous father, James Hillman, a protégé of Carl Jung and author of The Soul's Code. Laurence himself has pioneered the use of archetypal work in astrology and dreams, working with businesses and organisations around the world on personal development and leadership programmes. As a professional archetypal coach he specializes in helping clients, whether individual or corporate, understand their deeper purpose in life's calling through these challenging times.   ** And DR Hillman is coming to the DRI in London on Tuesday, August 26, 2025 to run a workshop on the whole subject of astrology and Dreaming. Check out the DRI website driccpe.org.uk for tickets **   In the episode the team reflect how celestial archetypes, like the Sun and Moon, in someone's astrological chart can create a story about the person's character which will then surface in dream time to deepen the interpretation. They look briefly at Laura's Sun and Moon positions in her chart and Maria recalls how she had a prophetic dream that led her to tracking down Laurence Hillman and finding out more about Laurence's work. Laurence has written several successful books including Planets in Play, How to Reimagine Your Life Through the Language of Astrology and is the co-author of Alignments, How to Live in Harmony with the Universe. And also the co-author of The Archetypes at Work, Evolving Your Story, One Character at a Time.   Laurence can be contacted on: https://laurencehillman.com/   The Cosmos Within: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-cosmos-within-dreams-archetypes-and-astrology-with-laurence-hillman-tickets-1435000909349?aff=oddtdtcreator   Our dreams are worth inquiring about too! Share a dream or a question via our website driccpe.org.uk or the social links below!   Let us know what you think, and submit a dream for us to explore on the podcast!  Instagram @thedreamboatpodcast FaceBook @dreamboatpodcast Twitter @dreamboatpod DRI website: driccpe.org.uk/contact    This podcast is a project of the DRI, the centre for dream studies at CCPE, the psychotherapy college overlooking the canals at London's scenic Little Venice.   Remember you can join the DRI for just £30 a year currently to access discounted events, courses, newsletters and join in the conversation about dreams. Go to driccpe.org.uk/sign-up to join!   Keep dreaming, and keep sharing your dreams!   Credits Recorded on Riverside.fm by Dave and Laura Edited by James Ede at Be Heard https://beheard.org.uk  Podcast Artwork Design by Kat Seager Design   Music: Adventures by A Himitsu https://soundcloud.com/a-himitsu  Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported— CC BY 3.0 Free Download / Stream: http://bit.ly/2Pj0MtT Music released by Argofox https://youtu.be/8BXNwnxaVQE  Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/MkNeIUgNPQ8 #dream #dreams #recurringdream #nightmares #psychology #research #psychotherapy #trauma #treatment #sleep #transpersonal #science #alchemy #spirituality #jung #lucid #luciddreaming #podcast #dreamwork #technology #AI #artificialintelligence #gpt #individuation #art #surrealism #consciousness   Tags: Insta: @onefulness @dreamresearchinstitute @iasddream  FB: @associationforstudyofdreams @laura.payne.33 @dreamresearchinstitute   

Dr. Laurence Hillman was born into a lineage of archetypal thought. His father, James Hillman, is considered the father of American Archetypal Psychology. Laurence Hillman grew up in Zurich, where his father had studied with Jung and, subsequently, served as the Director of Studies at the C.G. Jung Institute.As a professional archetypal coach, Laurence Hillman helps his clients understand their deeper purpose and their life's calling. In his role as a consultant, he helps leaders and organizations understand their archetypal patterns and advises on high-level decision making in organizations. His tools for mapping archetypes include archetypal astrology for which he is one of the leading voices worldwide.Laurence Hillman is the author of Planets in Play - How to Reimagine Your Life Through the Language of Astrology. Laurence also co-authored two other books including Archetypes at Work - Evolving your Story, One Character at a Time, which he wrote with Richard Olivier. He and Richard co-created Archetypes at Work™, a new cutting-edge method to assess and develop people and organizations to become fit for the future.

My name is Marina A. Smirnova. I was born on Sakhalin Island (the Far East of Russia), and, well over twenty years ago, I made the U.S.A. my home. My journey has been enriched by earning a Bachelor degree in Music Education (Minsk State Pedagogical University, 1996), a Master of Arts degree in Counseling (Central Michigan University, 2003), and a PhD degree in Psychology, with Transpersonal Psychology Concentration (Sofia University, formerly Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, 2013). I started my teaching path at the age of 18 as a K-12 music teacher. In 2013, I began my contribution to Saybrook University. In 2016, I became an Assistant Program Director for the Department of Humanistic and Clinical Psychology; in 2017-an Interim Psychology Chair. Currently, as a core faculty member of the Department of Humanistic Psychology at Saybrook, I serve as a Full Professor of Psychology and Consciousness, Spirituality, and Integrative Health (CSIH) Specialization Director. I am a recipient of two recent Saybrook University awards: Presidential Award for Excellence (November 2021) and Exemplary Humanistic Educator Award (August 2024). My interests are deeply humanistic and transpersonal in nature. Outside of the halls of academia, I support adults' inner development by helping them to integrate fully their deeply evocative, Exceptional Human Experiences (EHEs). Such experiences often arise within and out of dreams, visions, visitations, spiritual practices, breathwork, visionary journeys, and reality-shattering UFO /ET /Alien /Non-Human Intelligences encounters. I support experiencers transpersonally in their quests for spiritual vitality, fulfillment, vibrant longevity, soulful sovereignty, wholeness, and ascension. I have a deep sense of appreciation for contemplative spirituality, mystical and esoteric traditions, and contemplative practices, and my current overarching focus is on exploring, potentiating, and integrating Exceptional Experiences (EEs) and Exceptional Human Experiences (EHEs), in general, and reality-shattering UFO /ET /Alien / Non-Human Intelligences encounters, in particular. My heart-centered art and interests include: (1) intuitive spiritual support and guidance; (2) transpersonal ways of knowing, embodiment, ascension mentoring, and spiritual consultation; (3) extreme, deeply evocative, and visionary transpersonal/holotropic states; (4) John E. Mack's transpersonal research on UFO / ET /Alien encounters and human transformation; (5) Stan Grof's expanded cartography of the psyche, holotropic states of consciousness, and GROF® Breathwork / Holotropic Breathwork®; (6) C.G. Jung's transpersonal legacy, Joe Campbell's heroic journey, and James Hillman's acorn theory; (7) psionics, remote viewing, mythology and personal mythology, dreamwork, guided imagery, clinical hypnosis, and alchemy of ascension; (8) consciousness calibration work by David R. Hawkins, (9) the biology of personal empowerment by Bruce H. Lipton; (10) Enneagram; (11) Gene Keys and Dream Arc (by Richard Rudd); (12) indigenous traditions and heart-centered spirituality; and (13) other embodied spiritual approaches that engage inner resources to optimize soulful sovereignty, fulfillment, vibrant longevity, joy, and ascension. My son is a decorated U.S. Army Veteran. I live and create in Sedona, Arizona. With Many Blessings and Joy of Joys, Marina Marina A. Smirnova, PhD https://earthsideacademy.substack.com/

My name is Marina A. Smirnova. I was born on Sakhalin Island (the Far East of Russia), and, well over twenty years ago, I made the U.S.A. my home. My journey has been enriched by earning a Bachelor degree in Music Education (Minsk State Pedagogical University, 1996), a Master of Arts degree in Counseling (Central Michigan University, 2003), and a PhD degree in Psychology, with Transpersonal Psychology Concentration (Sofia University, formerly Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, 2013). I started my teaching path at the age of 18 as a K-12 music teacher. In 2013, I began my contribution to Saybrook University. In 2016, I became an Assistant Program Director for the Department of Humanistic and Clinical Psychology; in 2017-an Interim Psychology Chair. Currently, as a core faculty member of the Department of Humanistic Psychology at Saybrook, I serve as a Full Professor of Psychology and Consciousness, Spirituality, and Integrative Health (CSIH) Specialization Director. I am a recipient of two recent Saybrook University awards: Presidential Award for Excellence (November 2021) and Exemplary Humanistic Educator Award (August 2024). My interests are deeply humanistic and transpersonal in nature. Outside of the halls of academia, I support adults' inner development by helping them to integrate fully their deeply evocative, Exceptional Human Experiences (EHEs). Such experiences often arise within and out of dreams, visions, visitations, spiritual practices, breathwork, visionary journeys, and reality-shattering UFO /ET /Alien /Non-Human Intelligences encounters. I support experiencers transpersonally in their quests for spiritual vitality, fulfillment, vibrant longevity, soulful sovereignty, wholeness, and ascension. I have a deep sense of appreciation for contemplative spirituality, mystical and esoteric traditions, and contemplative practices, and my current overarching focus is on exploring, potentiating, and integrating Exceptional Experiences (EEs) and Exceptional Human Experiences (EHEs), in general, and reality-shattering UFO /ET /Alien / Non-Human Intelligences encounters, in particular. My heart-centered art and interests include: (1) intuitive spiritual support and guidance; (2) transpersonal ways of knowing, embodiment, ascension mentoring, and spiritual consultation; (3) extreme, deeply evocative, and visionary transpersonal/holotropic states; (4) John E. Mack's transpersonal research on UFO / ET /Alien encounters and human transformation; (5) Stan Grof's expanded cartography of the psyche, holotropic states of consciousness, and GROF® Breathwork / Holotropic Breathwork®; (6) C.G. Jung's transpersonal legacy, Joe Campbell's heroic journey, and James Hillman's acorn theory; (7) psionics, remote viewing, mythology and personal mythology, dreamwork, guided imagery, clinical hypnosis, and alchemy of ascension; (8) consciousness calibration work by David R. Hawkins, (9) the biology of personal empowerment by Bruce H. Lipton; (10) Enneagram; (11) Gene Keys and Dream Arc (by Richard Rudd); (12) indigenous traditions and heart-centered spirituality; and (13) other embodied spiritual approaches that engage inner resources to optimize soulful sovereignty, fulfillment, vibrant longevity, joy, and ascension. My son is a decorated U.S. Army Veteran. I live and create in Sedona, Arizona. With Many Blessings and Joy of Joys, Marina Marina A. Smirnova, PhD https://earthsideacademy.substack.com/

Gustavo Barcellos é escritor e psicólogo, analista didata da Associação Junguiana do Brasil e membro da Associação Internacional de Psicologia Analítica. Membro fundador doInstituto Mantiqueira de Psicologia Arquetípica-IMPAR. Autor de O irmão: psicologia do arquétipo fraterno, Psique & Imagem, O banquete de psique: imaginação, cultura e psicologia da alimentação, Mitologias Arquetípicas, Zeus: fabulação do mundo e paternidade arquetípica, e Fronteiras: ensaios de psicologia arquetípica, todos pela Editora Vozes. Conferencista com trabalhos apresentados no Brasil e no exterior, coordena seminários de psicologia arquetípica desde 1985 e é o tradutor de vários títulos de James Hillman, analista pós-junguiano e iniciador da psicologia arquetípica. Trabalha há mais de 35 anos como analista em São Paulo

Stephen Aizenstat, Ph.D., is the founder of Pacifica Graduate Institute, Dream Tending, and the Academy of Imagination. For more than 35 years, he has explored the power of dreams through depth psychology. He has collaborated with Joseph Campbell, Marion Woodman, Robert Johnson, James Hillman, and Native elders worldwide. He conducts dreamwork and imagination seminars throughout the US, Europe, and Asia. For more, visit dreamtending.com.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-x-zone-radio-tv-show--1078348/support.

In an era of climate anxiety, political polarization, and economic uncertainty, suggesting optimism might seem tone-deaf or naive. But what if optimism isn't about ignoring reality but instead equips us to face it more effectively?Today, we explore the counterintuitive power of hopeful thinking in difficult moments. Drawing on both cutting-edge psychology and James Hillman's intriguing "acorn theory," we'll share practical techniques for nurturing genuine optimism without falling into toxic positivity or denial. Perfect for anyone feeling overwhelmed by current events who wants to rediscover purpose and possibility without sacrificing realism.

Part 1 of this discussion examines psychology, philosophy, religion, spiritually, science, and medicine, a panel of five (5) people opens with the question, 'where am I?' and 'what is going on [in the world]?' and refers to James Hillman, ideas and action as an artificial distinction, are they the same thing? How are they interlinked? The poet Major Ragain is quoted, 'contemplation alters the course of rivers.' From the Bhagavad Gita: Freedom from action is not accomplished by abstaining from action, so how is it accomplished? Relinquishing the fruit of action Ghandi's, 'through service, I find myself.' The Panel begins to examine the Taoist concept of non-action, Wu Wei. How do we cultivate Wu Wei? The Panel explores Univerisal Truths. Natural action arises, we have a deep intrinsic calling, how do we find and express it? What is our reason for being here? To receive the Divine Will is a part of choiceless action. Biographies of Panel: Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church. Brian Mistler is a Missouri-hillbilly curious about Reality. He has lived as a computer scientist, psychologist, running and growing businesses, and helping entrepreneurs, hospitals, and healthcare providers. Mid-life Brian had a partially debilitating nerve injury and soon after met a true Vedanta teacher who spent 30+ years in India and trained under Swami Chimayananda, Sawmi Dayananda, and others. This refocused his study of the classic non-dual wisdom as presented in the Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Learn more at http://www.stillcenter.media. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council. Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology. Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts. He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY. His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas. This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon. He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

“At 57, I'm not winding down—I'm spiraling in. This is not the finale. This is the reclamation.”In this Wisdom Walk edition of the Soulcruzer Podcast, I step into the mythic terrain of Act III—the Reclamation Phase. Blending Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey, James Hillman's mythic imagination, and the soul-deep symbolism of the Osho Zen Tarot, this episode explores the turning of the inner wheel and the soulful integration that defines the latter chapters of life. In this episode: What it means to live in Act III—not as decline, but as the return with the elixirHow soul integration and legacy begin with letting go of split identitiesEmbodied reflections on the three Osho Zen cards drawn for this walk:The Torn One (Schizophrenia) – the inner conflict of clinging to two worldsThe Dream Gazer (Postponement) – the cost of waiting to step into the full-color lifeThe Cosmic Dancer (Change) – surrendering to the rhythm of the turning wheelA real-time mythic meditation on life, death, purpose, and legacyThe personal reckoning of letting go of the "safe structure" in order to fully serve those who've awakened from the MatrixThis isn't just a podcast—it's a soul signal for those who've stirred from the dream of the ordinary and now find themselves blinking into the mythic light, wondering, What now?  

What calls you?We spend so much of our time wrapped up in what we should do—clean the house, pay the bills, check off the endless to-do list. But what if we set aside the “shoulds” for a moment and listened to what truly calls us? What if Spirit speaks, not through obligation, but through excitement? In this episode, I explore the powerful concept of the Daimon, as introduced in James Hillman's The Soul's Code. This inner guide—your unique blueprint—has been with you since birth, nudging you toward your true destiny. I share a personal moment of realization, where a simple painting reminded me of my own creative calling. What brings you joy? What sparks that deep inner yes? In my book, The Spiritual Artist (available on Amazon), I call this your Intelligence of Being—the unique code within you that guides your creative and spiritual journey. Today, I challenge you to listen to that voice—the one that knows your path better than your to-do list ever could. When you hear the calling, what will you do?  

Stephen Aizenstat, Ph.D., is the founder of Pacifica Graduate Institute, Dream Tending, and the Academy of Imagination. For more than 35 years, he has explored the power of dreams through depth psychology. He has collaborated with Joseph Campbell, Marion Woodman, Robert Johnson, James Hillman, and Native elders worldwide. He conducts dreamwork and imagination seminars throughout the US, Europe, and Asia. For more, visit dreamtending.com.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-x-zone-radio-tv-show--1078348/support.

Episode Summary: Seth returns and is joined by Mike for a deep dive into imagination, creativity, and the transformative power of channeling. Together, they explore active imagination, engaging with the imaginal realm, and Seth's journey toward connecting with dragons as primal, ancestral forces. The episode is a celebration of creativity, personal growth, and embracing the mysterious depths within.Topics Discussed:Active Imagination and Shadow Work: Mike and Seth share their experiences with active imagination, discussing its challenges and the breakthroughs it offers. They reflect on entering the imaginal realm, confronting fear, and engaging with the unconscious without judgment.Channeling Dragons: Seth recounts his journey of connecting with dragons as symbols of ferocity and transformation. He describes the physical and emotional sensations that led him to this practice and how it has shifted his perspective on creativity and power.The Power of Somatic Therapy: Seth explains how Hakomi somatic psychotherapy combines mindfulness and body awareness with imagination to foster healing and self-discovery.Creativity and the Middle World: Drawing on James Hillman's concept of the "middle world," the duo discusses how creativity bridges the abstract and material realms, allowing us to co-create with consciousness.Imagination as a Tool for Healing and Growth: From inviting magical beings to help with mundane tasks to dreaming bigger, the conversation underscores the importance of imagination in expanding one's sense of self and engaging with life fully.Soul-Making and Self-Acceptance: The hosts reflect on how engaging with the imaginal world fosters self-acceptance and offers new perspectives on challenges and emotions.LinksSeth's Share Circles: Seth hosts guided active imagination meditations as part of his share circles, offering a safe space for people to connect with their inner worlds and share authentically. For more details, email mormonsonmushroomspod@gmail.com or reach out to Seth on Instagram at @sethlloyds.Creativity Coaching with Seth: Seth offers coaching sessions to help individuals connect with their subconscious, engage with creativity, and establish life-affirming spiritual practices. Email Seth.Stephenson@protonmail.com for inquiries.200th Episode Live Recording: Join Mike and Doug for a special live recording of their 200th episode on February 2nd at 5 PM MT. To participate, email mormonsonmushroomspod@gmail.com.Join the Conversation:Sign up for the Mormons on Mushrooms Underground Newsletter to stay connected and hear about future events and updates.Share your thoughts, stories, or questions by emailing mormonsonmushroomspod@gmail.com.Episode Highlights:“The face we show the unconscious is the face that it shows back.” “We are part of creation, and all we can do is fully be a part of it.” “An emotion is a sensation with a story.” “Imagination is not about escaping reality; it's about enriching it.” Thank You for Listening! If this episode inspired or resonated with you, don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Mormons on Mushrooms on your favorite podcast platform. 

In this episode, Matt speaks with Richard Tarnas about his book Cosmos and Psyche: Intimations of a New Worldview. Richard Theodore Tarnas is a cultural historian and astrologer known for his books The Passion of the Western Mind: Understanding the Ideas That Have Shaped Our World View and Cosmos and Psyche: Intimations of a New World View. Tarnas is professor of philosophy and psychology at the California Institute of Integral Studies, and is the founding director of its graduate program in Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness. In 1968 Tarnas entered Harvard, graduating with an A.B. cum laude in 1972. He received his Ph.D. from Saybrook Institute in 1976 with a thesis on psychedelic therapy. In 1974 Tarnas went to Esalen in California to study psychotherapy with Stanislav Grof. From 1974 to 1984 he lived and worked at Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California, teaching and studying with Grof, Joseph Campbell, Gregory Bateson, Huston Smith, Elizabeth Kübler-Ross, and James Hillman. He also served as Esalen's director of programs and education. Get the book: https://a.co/d/4gJFNxS warmachinepodcast.org Music for this episode: Lamentium, Monasterium Imperi Nomad's Theme, Matt Baker

Stephen Aizenstat, Ph.D., is the founder of Pacifica Graduate Institute, Dream Tending, and the Academy of Imagination. For more than 35 years, he has explored the power of dreams through depth psychology. He has collaborated with Joseph Campbell, Marion Woodman, Robert Johnson, James Hillman, and Native elders worldwide. He conducts dreamwork and imagination seminars throughout the US, Europe, and Asia. For more, visit dreamtending.com.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-x-zone-radio-tv-show--1078348/support.

Send your email to join the MoM Underground: Co-create with a community of artists and stay informed of online and local events, including gatherings, concerts, live podcast recordings, meditations, etc.Support Mormons on Mushrooms:Become a PatreonSend a ContributionIn this episode, Mike and Doug dive into a riveting conversation sparked by Mike's eerie solo trip to see the terrifying new Nosferatu movie—while high, no less! This opens the door to a deep discussion about fear, creativity, and how our media choices reflect and shape our inner lives.Key Topics Discussed:Mike's Nosferatu ExperienceWhat it's like to immerse yourself in a terrifying film while grappling with existential questions.The surprising symbolic themes in Nosferatu and how they mirror our pursuits and sacrifices in life.Exploring the Hero's JourneyReflections on the archetype of the hero, from Frodo to Neo, and how it resonates with our longing to matter.The paradox of seeking external validation versus finding fulfillment through self-discovery.Soul-Making Through Art and ExpressionDoug and Mike discuss James Hillman's concept of soul-making: engaging deeply with life's ecstasies and heartbreaks.The difference between creating for external approval and the fullness that comes from authentic, communal experiences—whether on stage, around a fire, or during a chill Friday night gathering.TikTok and the Validation TrapNavigating the highs and lows of sharing content online.Why likes, comments, and views can never fully satisfy the soul.New Year Intentions: Living AuthenticallyMike shares a new ritual inspired by Doug: defining “I am” statements to align with personal truths and aspirations.How these intentions tie back to music, community, and creating moments of true connection.

Internationally renowned Jungian dreamer Sven Doehner PhD, protégé of James Hillman, comes on board to discuss the healing power of dreams using sound. Laura and Melinda also attend one of his acclaimed workshops, held at the DRI in London, UK and report back on the results.    Sven talks how healing can materialize not just by playing with dream imagery and diving into meanings and symbolism but how sound can form a significant part of the healing process. Melinda and Laura discuss this and how they were impressed with Sven's techniques during the London workshop.   Sven, a Mexican, reveals how a family dream about the 1937 Hindenburg Airship disaster affected his family and how a personal dream when he met James Hillman by chance in a US bookshop resulted in Hillman, a student of Jung, taking him on as a client and student. Sven discusses his work as a Transpersonal psychotherapist and facilitator and how his workshops and retreats have taken him round the world.   Sven Doehner, PhD, MFA, is a 72 year old Psychoanalyst trained in C.G. Jung´s Analytical Psychology, with James Hillman in Archetypal Psychology, as a Somatic Movement Educator, and as a Transpersonal therapist. His exploration, involvement and experience with native Ancestral Healing and Spiritual practices – begun in 1984 – is blended into his therapeutic work with others, as is his expertise in working with the Voice: “The Listening Voice”. in which he guides into discovering the vocal form of what is moving within them in a moment of particular tension. His intention is to dissolves knotts, opens space, and gives form to something new in order to restore, movement in the “being” of a person´s life. He calls this innovative proposal “The Sound Imagination”.   www.svendoehner.com Insta: @svendoehner

In this week's episode of the 3 Pillars Podcast I will be discussing the Warrior Archetype. How do you define it, what is it's shadow, and how can we apply our Christian faith to strengthen this archetype? SUBSCRIBE TO THE NEW PODCAST CHANNEL HERE: https://www.youtube.com/@3PillarsPodcast God bless you all. Jesus is King. “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭8‬ ‭KJV‬‬ I appreciate all the comments, topic suggestions, and shares! Find the "3 Pillars Podcast" on all major platforms. For more information, visit the 3 Pillars Podcast website: https://3pillarspodcast.wordpress.com/ Don't forget to check out the 3 Pillars Podcast on Goodpods and share your thoughts by leaving a rating and review: https://goodpods.app.link/3X02e8nmIub Please Support Veteran's For Child Rescue: https://vets4childrescue.org/ Stay connected with Joe Russiello and the "Sword of the Spirit" Podcast: https://www.swordofthespiritpodcast.com/ Join the conversation: #3pillarspodcast References Jung, C. G. (1969). The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious. Princeton University Press. Hillman, J. (1989). A Blue Fire: Selected Writings by James Hillman. Harper & Row. Rohr, R. (2011). Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life. Jossey-Bass. Peterson, J. B. (2018). 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos. Random House. Peck, M. S. (1978). The Road Less Traveled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values, and Spiritual Growth. Simon & Schuster. #podcast #archetype --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/chase-tobin/support

Welcome back to another enriching episode of the StreetSmart Wisdom Podcast! I'm your host, Steve Stein, and today we have a transformative conversation with our esteemed guest, Mark Matousek. In this episode titled "Mark Matousek on Emerson's Path to Self-Reliance and Spiritual Consciousness," we dive deep into the timeless wisdom of Ralph Waldo Emerson and explore how his philosophies on self-reliance, nonconformity, and spiritual democracy can illuminate our paths today.   Mark, the author of the insightful book "Lessons from an American Stoic: How Emerson Can Change Your Life," shares invaluable lessons on accessing inner wisdom without the need for external permission, and discusses Emerson's relevance in an age overwhelmed by social media and societal pressures. We examine how personal connection to the divine is accessible to everyone, supported by practical spiritual exercises inspired by stoicism to enhance self-awareness.   Together, we navigate the importance of grounding oneself to maintain authenticity, the benefits of taking breaks from social influences, and the profound impact of spending quality introspective time. We also touch on the powerful stoic practice of "viewing from above," reframing life's challenges into opportunities for growth, demonstrating how imagination can reshape our realities.   Join us as we traverse through Emerson's critical ideas on personal wellness, individuality, and the sacred marriage of opposites, alongside insights into Matousek's personal journey influenced by figures like James Hillman and their shared mission to reduce suffering through self-discovery and mindfulness. Don't miss this enlightening episode, providing you with essential tools to thrive in today's complex world.   Remember to check out Mark Matousek's work at markmatousek.com and join our community at WisdomFeed Plus for more resources on personal development, health, and wellness. Tune in and empower yourself with some StreetSmart wisdom!   TIMESTAMP: 00:00 Street Smart Wisdom: Inspirational and vetted content. 04:13 Emerson's ideas offer relevant guidance for today. 08:42 Transcendentalism: Personal divine experience over religious institutions. 10:57 Traditions not needed for spiritual enlightenment. 16:12 Grounded wisdom, Emerson's impact, accessible stoicism. 18:21 Being true to oneself is life's greatest achievement. 20:57 Being eccentric is valuable; individuality fosters creativity. 24:01 Engaged quiet time for self-reflection. 28:33 Stoicism focused on reducing suffering, like CBT. 32:09 Finding opportunity in adversity brings positive change. 36:17 Empowerment comes from changing victim mindset. 37:51 Be present; avoid living life on autopilot. 43:54 Emerson: Embrace contradictions, form unique originality. 45:50 Embrace contradictions; expand understanding and possibilities. 47:59 Opposites teach valuable lessons for reconciliation. 51:23 Join WisdomFeed Plus for wellness and community.     Connect with us: Facebook: https://bit.ly/FBpageWF Instagram: https://bit.ly/RealWisdomFeed WisdomFeed Website: https://bit.ly/WisdomFeedHome BetterListen Website: https://bit.ly/BetterListenWebsite

It's spooky season, so the team decided to talk about nightmares since it correlates synchronistically with the head center. Kristen mainly takes the stage here with her history of nightmares and how it could have been helping her experience repressed fear and regulating her emotional health. They discuss how nightmares could be a direct way to experience all three instinctual centers. Resources; ‘The Twenty Four Hour Mind' Article; https://www.themarginalian.org/index.php/2012/08/13/the-twenty-four-hour-mind-rosalind-cartwright/ James Hillman; ‘Pan and the Nightmare' James Hillman lecture; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qRRPBAx_CQ 

On this episode of the pod, my guest is David Cayley, a Toronto-based Canadian writer and broadcaster. For more than thirty years (1981-2012) he made radio documentaries for CBC Radio One's program Ideas, which premiered in 1965 under the title The Best Ideas You'll Hear Tonight. In 1966, at the age of twenty, Cayley joined the Canadian University Service Overseas (CUSO), one of the many volunteer organizations that sprang up in the 1960's to promote international development. Two years later, back in Canada, he began to associate with a group of returned volunteers whose experiences had made them, like himself, increasingly quizzical about the idea of development. In 1968 in Chicago, he heard a lecture given by Ivan Illich and in 1970 he and others brought Illich to Toronto for a teach-in called “Crisis in Development.” This was the beginning of their long relationship: eighteen years later Cayley invited Illich to do a series of interviews for CBC Radio's Ideas. Cayley is the author of Ivan Illich: An Intellectual Journey (2022), Ideas on the Nature of Science (2009), The Rivers North of the Future: The Testament of Ivan Illich (2004), Puppet Uprising (2003),The Expanding Prison: The Crisis in Crime and Punishment and the Search for Alternatives (1998), George Grant in Conversation (1995), Northrop Frye in Conversation (1992), Ivan Illich in Conversation (1992), and The Age of Ecology (1990).Show Notes:The Early Years with Ivan IllichThe Good Samaritan StoryFalling out of a HomeworldThe Corruption of the Best is the Worst (Corruptio Optimi Pessima)How Hospitality Becomes HostilityHow to Live in ContradictionRediscovering the FutureThe Pilgrimage of SurpriseFriendship with the OtherHomework:Ivan Illich: An Intellectual Journey (Penn State Press) - Paperback Now Available!David Cayley's WebsiteThe Rivers North of the Future (House of Anansi Press)Ivan Illich | The Corruption of Christianity: Corruptio Optimi Pessima (2000)Charles Taylor: A Secular AgeTranscript:Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome, David, to the End of Tourism Podcast. It's a pleasure to finally meet you. David: Likewise. Thank you. Chris: I'm very grateful to have you joining me today. And I'm curious if you could offer our listeners a little glimpse into where you find yourself today and what the world looks like for you through the lenses of David Cayley.David: Gray and wet. In Toronto, we've had a mild winter so far, although we did just have some real winter for a couple of weeks. So, I'm at my desk in my house in downtown Toronto. Hmm. Chris: Hmm. Thank you so much for joining us, David. You know, I came to your work quite long ago.First through the book, The Rivers North of the Future, The Testament of Ivan Illich. And then through your long standing tenure as the host of CBC Ideas in Canada. I've also just finished reading your newest book, Ivan Illich, An Intellectual Journey. For me, which has been a clear and comprehensive homage [00:01:00] to that man's work.And so, from what I understand from the reading, you were a friend of Illich's as well as the late Gustavo Esteva, a mutual friend of ours, who I interviewed for the podcast shortly before his death in 2021. Now, since friendship is one of the themes I'd like to approach with you today, I'm wondering if you could tell us about how you met these men and what led you to writing a biography of the former, of Ivan.David: Well, let me answer about Ivan first. I met him as a very young man. I had spent two years living in northern Borneo, eastern Malaysia, the Malaysian state of Sarawak. As part of an organization called the Canadian University Service Overseas, which many people recognize only when it's identified with the Peace Corps. It was a similar initiative or the VSO, very much of the time.And When I returned to [00:02:00] Toronto in 1968, one of the first things I saw was an essay of Ivan's. It usually circulates under the name he never gave it, which is, "To Hell With Good Intentions." A talk he had given in Chicago to some young volunteers in a Catholic organization bound for Mexico.And it made sense to me in a radical and surprising way. So, I would say it began there. I went to CDOC the following year. The year after that we brought Ivan to Toronto for a teach in, in the fashion of the time, and he was then an immense celebrity, so we turned people away from a 600 seat theater that night when he lectured in Toronto.I kept in touch subsequently through reading mainly and we didn't meet again until the later 1980s when he came to Toronto.[00:03:00] He was then working on, in the history of literacy, had just published a book called ABC: the Alphabetization of the Western Mind. And that's where we became more closely connected. I went later that year to State College, Pennsylvania, where he was teaching at Penn State, and recorded a long interview, radically long.And made a five-hour Ideas series, but by a happy chance, I had not thought of this, his friend Lee Hoinacki asked for the raw tapes, transcribed them, and eventually that became a published book. And marked an epoch in Ivan's reception, as well as in my life because a lot of people responded to the spoken or transcribed Illich in a way that they didn't seem to be able to respond to his writing, which was scholastically condensed, let's [00:04:00] say.I always found it extremely congenial and I would even say witty in the deep sense of wit. But I think a lot of people, you know, found it hard and so the spoken Illich... people came to him, even old friends and said, you know, "we understand you better now." So, the following year he came to Toronto and stayed with us and, you know, a friendship blossomed and also a funny relationship where I kept trying to get him to express himself more on the theme of the book you mentioned, The Rivers North of the Future, which is his feeling that modernity, in the big sense of modernity can be best understood as perversionism. A word that he used, because he liked strong words, but it can be a frightening word."Corruption" also has its difficulties, [00:05:00] but sometimes he said "a turning inside out," which I like very much, or "a turning upside down" of the gospel. So, when the world has its way with the life, death and resurrection and teaching of Jesus Christ which inevitably becomes an institution when the world has its way with that.The way leads to where we are. That was his radical thought. And a novel thought, according to the philosopher Charles Taylor, a Canadian philosopher, who was kind enough to write a preface to that book when it was published, and I think very much aided its reception, because people knew who Charles Taylor was, and by then, they had kind of forgotten who Ivan Illich was.To give an example of that, when he died, the New York [00:06:00] Times obituary was headlined "Priest turned philosopher appealed to baby boomers in the 60s." This is yesterday's man, in other words, right? This is somebody who used to be important. So, I just kept at him about it, and eventually it became clear he was never going to write that book for a whole variety of reasons, which I won't go into now.But he did allow me to come to Cuernavaca, where he was living, and to do another very long set of interviews, which produced that book, The Rivers North of the Future. So that's the history in brief. The very last part of that story is that The Rivers North of the Future and the radio series that it was based on identifies themes that I find to be quite explosive. And so, in a certain way, the book you mentioned, Ivan Illich: An Intellectual Journey, [00:07:00] was destined from the moment that I recorded those conversations. Chris: Hmm, yeah, thank you, David. So much of what you said right there ends up being the basis for most of my questions today, especially around the corruption or the perversion what perhaps iatrogenesis also termed as iatrogenesis But much of what I've also come to ask today, stems and revolves around Illich's reading of the Good Samaritan story, so I'd like to start there, if that's alright.And you know, for our listeners who aren't familiar either with the story or Illich's take on it, I've gathered some small excerpts from An Intellectual Journey so that they might be on the same page, so to speak. So, from Ivan Illich, An Intellectual Journey:"jesus tells the story after he has been asked how to, quote, 'inherit eternal life,' end quote, and has replied that one must love God and one's neighbor, [00:08:00] quote, 'as oneself,' but, quote, who is my neighbor? His interlocutor wants to know. Jesus answers with his tale of a man on his way from Jerusalem to Jericho, who is beset by robbers, beaten, and left, quote, 'half dead' by the side of the road.Two men happen along, but, quote, 'pass by on the other side.' One is a priest and the other a Levite, a group that assisted the priests at the Great Temple, which, at that time, dominated the landscape of Jerusalem from the Temple Mount. Then, a Samaritan comes along. The Samaritans belonged to the estranged northern kingdom of Israel, and did not worship at the Temple.Tension between the Samaritans and the Judeans in the Second Temple period gives the name a significance somewhere between 'foreigner' and 'enemy.' [00:09:00] In contemporary terms, he was, as Illich liked to say, 'a Palestinian.' The Samaritan has, quote, 'compassion' on the wounded one. He stops, binds his wounds, takes him to an inn where he can convalesce and promises the innkeeper that he will return to pay the bill.'And so Jesus concludes by asking, 'Which of the three passers by was the neighbor?'Illich claimed that this parable had been persistently misunderstood as a story about how one ought to act. He had surveyed sermons from the 3rd through 19th centuries, he said, 'and found a broad consensus that what was being proposed was a, quote, rule of conduct.' But this interpretation was, in fact, quote, 'the opposite of what Jesus wanted to point out.'He had not been asked how to act toward a neighbor, but rather, 'who is my neighbor?' And he had replied, [00:10:00] scandalously, that it could be anyone at all. The choice of the Samaritan as the hero of the tale said, 'in effect, it is impossible to categorize who your neighbor might be.' The sense of being called to help the other is experienced intermittently and not as an unvarying obligation.A quote, 'new kind of ought has been established,' Illich says, which is not related to a norm. It has a telos, it aims at somebody, some body, but not according to a rule. And finally, The Master told them that who your neighbor is is not determined by your birth, by your condition, by the language which you speak, but by you.You can recognize the other man who is out of bounds culturally, who is foreign linguistically, who, you can [00:11:00] say by providence or pure chance, is the one who lies somewhere along your road in the grass and create the supreme form of relatedness, which is not given by creation, but created by you. Any attempt to explain this 'ought,' as correspond, as, as corresponding to a norm, takes out the mysterious greatness from this free act.And so, I think there are at least, at the very least, a few major points to take away from this little summary I've extracted. One, that the ability to choose one's neighbor, breaks the boundaries of ethnicity at the time, which were the bases for understanding one's identity and people and place in the world.And two, that it creates a new foundation for hospitality and interculturality. And so I'm [00:12:00] curious, David, if you'd be willing to elaborate on these points as you understand them.David: Well if you went a little farther on in that part of the book, you'd find an exposition of a German teacher and writer and professor, Claus Held, that I found very helpful in understanding what Ivan was saying. Held is a phenomenologist and a follower of Husserl, but he uses Husserl's term of the home world, right, that each of us has a home world. Mm-Hmm. Which is our ethnos within which our ethics apply.It's a world in which we can be at home and in which we can somehow manage, right? There are a manageable number of people to whom we are obliged. We're not universally obliged. So, what was interesting about Held's analysis is then the condition in which the wounded [00:13:00] man lies is, he's fallen outside of any reference or any home world, right?Nobody has to care for him. The priest and the Levite evidently don't care for him. They have more important things to do. The story doesn't tell you why. Is he ritually impure as one apparently dead is? What? You don't know. But they're on their way. They have other things to do. So the Samaritan is radically out of line, right?He dares to enter this no man's land, this exceptional state in which the wounded man lies, and he does it on the strength of a feeling, right? A stirring inside him. A call. It's definitely a bodily experience. In Ivan's language of norms, it's not a norm. It's not a duty.It's [00:14:00] not an obligation. It's not a thought. He's stirred. He is moved to do what he does and he cares for him and takes him to the inn and so on. So, the important thing in it for me is to understand the complementarity that's involved. Held says that if you try and develop a set of norms and ethics, however you want to say it, out of the Samaritan's Act, it ends up being radically corrosive, it ends up being radically corrosive damaging, destructive, disintegrating of the home world, right? If everybody's caring for everybody all the time universally, you're pretty soon in the maddening world, not pretty soon, but in a couple of millennia, in the maddening world we live in, right? Where people Can tell you with a straight face that their actions are intended to [00:15:00] save the planet and not experience a sense of grandiosity in saying that, right?Not experiencing seemingly a madness, a sense of things on a scale that is not proper to any human being, and is bound, I think, to be destructive of their capacity to be related to what is at hand. So, I think what Ivan is saying in saying this is a new kind of ought, right, it's the whole thing of the corruption of the best is the worst in a nutshell because as soon as you think you can operationalize that, you can turn everyone into a Samaritan and You, you begin to destroy the home world, right?You begin to destroy ethics. You begin to, or you transform ethics into something which is a contradiction of ethics. [00:16:00] So, there isn't an answer in it, in what he says. There's a complementarity, right? Hmm. There's the freedom to go outside, but if the freedom to go outside destroys any inside, then, what have you done?Right? Hmm. You've created an unlivable world. A world of such unending, such unimaginable obligation, as one now lives in Toronto, you know, where I pass homeless people all the time. I can't care for all of them. So, I think it's also a way of understanding for those who contemplate it that you really have to pay attention.What are you called to, right? What can you do? What is within your amplitude? What is urgent for you? Do that thing, right? Do not make yourself mad with [00:17:00] impossible charity. A charity you don't feel, you can't feel, you couldn't feel. Right? Take care of what's at hand, what you can take care of. What calls you.Chris: I think this comes up quite a bit these days. Especially, in light of international conflicts, conflicts that arise far from people's homes and yet the demand of that 'ought' perhaps of having to be aware and having to have or having to feel some kind of responsibility for these things that are happening in other places that maybe, It's not that they don't have anything to do with us but that our ability to have any kind of recourse for what happens in those places is perhaps flippant, fleeting, and even that we're stretched to the point that we can't even tend and attend to what's happening in front of us in our neighborhoods.And so, I'm curious as to how this came to be. You mentioned "the corruption" [00:18:00] and maybe we could just define that, if possible for our listeners this notion of "the corruption of the best is the worst." Would you be willing to do that? Do you think that that's an easy thing to do? David: I've been trying for 30 years.I can keep on trying. I really, I mean, that was the seed of everything. At the end of the interview we did in 1988, Ivan dropped that little bomb on me. And I was a diligent man, and I had prepared very carefully. I'd read everything he'd written and then at the very end of the interview, he says the whole history of the West can be summed up in the phrase, Corruptio Optimi Pessima.He was quite fluent in Latin. The corruption of the best is the worst. And I thought, wait a minute, the whole history of the West? This is staggering. So, yes, I've been reflecting on it for a long time, but I think there are many ways to speak [00:19:00] about the incarnation, the idea that God is present and visible in the form of a human being, that God indeed is a human being in the person of Jesus Christ.One way is to think of it as a kind of nuclear explosion of religion. Religion had always been the placation of a god. Right? A sacrifice of some kind made to placate a god. Now the god is present. It could be you. Jesus is explicit about it, and I think that is the most important thing for Iman in reading the gospel, is that God appears to us as one another.Hmm. If you can put it, one another in the most general sense of that formula. So, that's explosive, right? I mean, religion, in a certain way, up to that moment, is society. It's the [00:20:00] integument of every society. It's the nature of the beast to be religious in the sense of having an understanding of how you're situated and in what order and with what foundation that order exists. It's not an intellectual thing. It's just what people do. Karl Barth says religion is a yoke. So, it has in a certain way exploded or been exploded at that moment but it will of course be re instituted as a religion. What else could happen? And so Ivan says, and this probably slim New Testament warrant for this, but this was his story, that in the very earliest apostolic church. They were aware of this danger, right? That Christ must be shadowed by "Antichrist," a term that Ivan was brave enough to use. The word just has a [00:21:00] terrible, terrible history. I mean, the Protestants abused the Catholics with the name of Antichrist. Luther rages against the Pope as antichrist.Hmm. And the word persists now as a kind of either as a sign of evangelical dogmatism, or maybe as a joke, right. When I was researching it, I came across a book called "How to Tell If Your Boyfriend Is The Antichrist." Mm-Hmm. It's kind of a jokey thing in a way, in so far as people know, but he dared to use it as to say the antichrist is simply the instituted Christ.Right. It's not anything exotic. It's not anything theological. It's the inevitable worldly shadow of there being a Christ at all. And so that's, that's the beginning of the story. He, he claims that the church loses sight of this understanding, loses sight of the basic [00:22:00] complementarity or contradiction that's involved in the incarnation in the first place.That this is something that can never be owned, something that can never be instituted, something that can only happen again and again and again within each one. So, but heaven can never finally come to earth except perhaps in a story about the end, right? The new heaven and the new earth, the new Jerusalem come down from heaven.Fine. That's at the end, not now. So that's the gist of what he, what he said. He has a detailed analysis of the stages of that journey, right? So, within your theme of hospitality the beginnings of the church becoming a social worker in the decaying Roman Empire. And beginning to develop institutions of hospitality, [00:23:00] places for all the flotsam and jetsam of the decaying empire.And then in a major way from the 11th through the 13th century, when the church institutes itself as a mini or proto state, right? With a new conception of law. Every element of our modernity prefigured in the medieval church and what it undertook, according to Ivan. This was all news to me when he first said it to me.So yeah, the story goes on into our own time when I think one of the primary paradoxes or confusions that we face is that most of the people one meets and deals with believe themselves to be living after Christianity and indeed to great opponents of Christianity. I mean, nothing is more important in Canada now than to denounce residential schools, let's say, right? Which were [00:24:00] the schools for indigenous children, boarding schools, which were mainly staffed by the church, right?So, the gothic figure of the nun, the sort of vulpine, sinister. That's the image of the church, right? So you have so many reasons to believe that you're after that. You've woken up, you're woke. And, and you see that now, right? So you don't In any way, see yourself as involved in this inversion of the gospel which has actually created your world and which is still, in so many ways, you.So, leftists today, if I'm using the term leftists very, very broadly, "progressives," people sometimes say, "woke," people say. These are all in a certain way super Christians or hyper Christians, but absolutely unaware of themselves as Christians and any day you can read an analysis [00:25:00] which traces everything back to the Enlightenment.Right? We need to re institute the Enlightenment. We've forgotten the Enlightenment. We have to get back to the, right? There's nothing before the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment is the over, that's an earlier overcoming of Christianity, right? So modernity is constantly overcoming Christianity. And constantly forgetting that it's Christian.That these are the ways in which the Incarnation is working itself out. And one daren't say that it's bound to work itself out that way. Ivan will go as far as to say it's seemingly the will of God that it should work itself out that way. Right? Wow. So, that the Gospel will be preached to all nations as predicted at the end of the Gospels." Go therefore and preach to all nations," but it will not be preached in its explicit form. It will enter, as it were, through the [00:26:00] back door. So that's a very big thought. But it's a saving thought in certain ways, because it does suggest a way of unwinding, or winding up, this string of finding out how this happened.What is the nature of the misunderstanding that is being played out here? So. Chris: Wow. Yeah, I mean, I, I feel like what you just said was a kind of nuclear bomb unto its own. I remember reading, for example, James Hillman in The Terrible Love of War, and at the very end he essentially listed all, not all, but many of the major characteristics of modern people and said if you act this way, you are Christian.If you act this way, you are Christian. Essentially revealing that so much of modernity has these Christian roots. And, you know, you said in terms of this message and [00:27:00] corruption of the message going in through the back door. And I think that's what happens in terms of at least when we see institutions in the modern time, schools, hospitals, roads essentially modern institutions and lifestyles making their way into non modern places.And I'm very fascinated in this in terms of hospitality. You said that the church, and I think you're quoting Illich there, but " the church is a social worker." But also how this hospitality shows up in the early church and maybe even how they feared about what could happen as a result to this question of the incarnation.In your book it was just fascinating to read this that you said, or that you wrote, that "in the early years of Christianity it was customary in a Christian household to have an extra mattress, a bit of candle, and some dry bread in case the Lord Jesus should knock at the door in the form of a stranger without a roof, a form of behavior that was utterly [00:28:00] foreign to the cultures of the Roman Empire."In which many Christians lived. And you write, "you took in your own, but not someone lost on the street." And then later "When the emperor Constantine recognized the church, Christian bishops gained the power to establish social corporations." And this is, I think, the idea of the social worker. The church is a social worker.And you write that the first corporations they started were Samaritan corporations, which designated certain categories of people as preferred neighbors. For example, the bishops created special houses financed by the community that were charged with taking care of people without a home. Such care was no longer the free choice of the householder, it was the task of an institution.The appearance of these xenodocheia? Literally, quote, 'houses for foreigners' signified the beginning of a change in the nature of the church." And then of course you write and you mentioned this but "a gratuitous and truly [00:29:00] free choice of assisting the stranger has become an ideology and an idealism." Right. And so, this seems to be how the corruption of the Samaritan story, the corruption of breaking that threshold, or at least being able to cross it, comes to produce this incredible 'ought,' as you just kind of elaborated for us.And then this notion of, that we can't see it anymore. That it becomes this thing in the past, as you said. In other words, history. Right? And so my next question is a question that comes to some degree from our late mutual friend Gustavo, Gustavo Esteva. And I'd just like to preface it by a small sentence from An Intellectual Journey where he wrote that, "I think that limit, in Illich, is always linked to nemesis, or to what Jung calls [00:30:00] enantiodromia, his Greek word for the way in which any tendency, when pushed too far, can turn into its opposite. And so, a long time ago, Illich once asked Gustavo if he could identify a word that could describe the era after development, or perhaps after development's death.And Gustavo said, "hospitality." And so, much later, in a private conversation with Gustavo, in the context of tourism and gentrification, the kind that was beginning to sweep across Oaxaca at the time, some years ago, he told me that he considered "the sale of one's people's radical or local hospitality as a kind of invitation to hostility in the place and within the ethnos that one lives in."Another way of saying it might be that the subversion and absence of hospitality in a place breeds or can breed hostility.[00:31:00] I'm curious what you make of his comment in the light of limits, enantiodromia and the corruption that Illich talks about.David: Well I'd like to say one thing which is the thought I was having while you, while you were speaking because at the very beginning I mentioned a reservation a discomfort with words like perversion and corruption. And the thought is that it's easy to understand Illich as doing critique, right? And it's easy then to moralize that critique, right? And I think it's important that he's showing something that happens, right? And that I daren't say bound to happen, but is likely to happen because of who and what we are, that we will institutionalize, that we will make rules, that we will, right?So, I think it's important to rescue Ivan from being read [00:32:00] moralistically, or that you're reading a scold here, right? Hmm. Right. I mean, and many social critics are or are read as scolds, right? And contemporary people are so used to being scolded that they, and scold themselves very regularly. So, I just wanted to say that to rescue Ivan from a certain kind of reading. You're quoting Gustavo on the way in which the opening up of a culture touristically can lead to hostility, right? Right. And I think also commenting on the roots of the words are the same, right? "hostile," "hospice." They're drawing on the same, right?That's right. It's how one treats the enemy, I think. Hmm. It's the hinge. Hmm. In all those words. What's the difference between hospitality and hostility?[00:33:00] So, I think that thought is profound and profoundly fruitful. So, I think Gustavo had many resources in expressing it.I couldn't possibly express it any better. And I never answered you at the beginning how I met Gustavo, but on that occasion in 1988 when I was interviewing Illich, they were all gathered, a bunch of friends to write what was called The Development Dictionary, a series of essays trying to write an epilogue to the era of development.So, Gustavo, as you know, was a charming man who spoke a peculiarly beautiful English in which he was fluent, but somehow, you could hear the cadence of Spanish through it without it even being strongly accented. So I rejoiced always in interviewing Gustavo, which I did several times because he was such a pleasure to listen to.But anyway, I've digressed. Maybe I'm ducking your question. Do you want to re ask it or? Chris: Sure. [00:34:00] Yeah, I suppose. You know although there were a number of essays that Gustavo wrote about hospitality that I don't believe have been published they focused quite a bit on this notion of individual people, but especially communities putting limits on their hospitality.And of course, much of this hospitality today comes in the form of, or at least in the context of tourism, of international visitors. And that's kind of the infrastructure that's placed around it. And yet he was arguing essentially for limits on hospitality. And I think what he was seeing, although it hadn't quite come to fruition yet in Oaxaca, was that the commodification, the commercialization of one's local indigenous hospitality, once it's sold, or once it's only existing for the value or money of the foreigner, in a kind of customer service worldview, that it invites this deep [00:35:00] hostility. And so do these limits show up as well in Illich's work in terms of the stranger?Right? Because so much of the Christian tradition is based in a universal fraternity, universal brotherhood. David: I said that Ivan made sense to me in my youth, as a 22 year old man. So I've lived under his influence. I took him as a master, let's say and as a young person. And I would say that probably it's true that I've never gone anywhere that I haven't been invited to go.So I, I could experience that, that I was called to be there. And he was quite the jet setter, so I was often called by him to come to Mexico or to go to Germany or whatever it was. But we live in a world that is so far away from the world that might have been, let's say, the world that [00:36:00] might be.So John Milbank, a British theologian who's Inspiring to me and a friend and somebody who I found surprisingly parallel to Illich in a lot of ways after Ivan died and died I think feeling that he was pretty much alone in some of his understandings. But John Milbank speaks of the, of recovering the future that we've lost, which is obviously have to be based on some sort of historical reconstruction. You have to find the place to go back to, where the wrong turning was, in a certain way. But meanwhile, we live in this world, right? Where even where you are, many people are dependent on tourism. Right? And to that extent they live from it and couldn't instantly do without. To do without it would be, would be catastrophic. Right? So [00:37:00] it's it's not easy to live in both worlds. Right? To live with the understanding that this is, as Gustavo says, it's bound to be a source of hostility, right?Because we can't sell what is ours as an experience for others without changing its character, right, without commodifying it. It's impossible to do. So it must be true and yet, at a certain moment, people feel that it has to be done, right? And so you have to live in in both realities.And in a certain way, the skill of living in both realities is what's there at the beginning, right? That, if you take the formula of the incarnation as a nuclear explosion, well you're still going to have religion, right? So, that's inevitable. The [00:38:00] world has changed and it hasn't changed at the same time.And that's true at every moment. And so you learn to walk, right? You learn to distinguish the gospel from its surroundings. And a story about Ivan that made a big impression on me was that when he was sent to Puerto Rico when he was still active as a priest in 1956 and became vice rector of the Catholic University at Ponce and a member of the school board.A position that he regarded as entirely political. So he said, "I will not in any way operate as a priest while I'm performing a political function because I don't want these two things to get mixed up." And he made a little exception and he bought a little shack in a remote fishing village.Just for the happiness of it, he would go there and say mass for the fishermen who didn't know anything about this other world. So, but that was[00:39:00] a radical conviction and put him at odds with many of the tendencies of his time, as for example, what came to be called liberation theology, right?That there could be a politicized theology. His view was different. His view was that the church as "She," as he said, rather than "it," had to be always distinguished, right? So it was the capacity to distinguish that was so crucial for him. And I would think even in situations where tourism exists and has the effect Gustavo supposed, the beginning of resistance to that and the beginning of a way out of it, is always to distinguish, right?To know the difference, which is a slim read, but, but faith is always a slim read and Ivan's first book, his first collection of published essays was [00:40:00] called Celebration of Awareness which is a way of saying that, what I call know the difference. Chris: So I'm going to, if I can offer you this, this next question, which comes from James, a friend in Guelph, Canada. And James is curious about the missionary mandate of Christianity emphasizing a fellowship in Christ over ethnicity and whether or not this can be reconciled with Illich's perhaps emphatic defense of local or vernacular culture.David: Well, yeah. He illustrates it. I mean, he was a worldwide guy. He was very far from his roots, which were arguably caught. He didn't deracinate himself. Hmm. He was with his mother and brothers exiled from Split in Dalmatia as a boy in the crazy atmosphere of the Thirties.But he was a tumbleweed after [00:41:00] that. Mm-Hmm. . And so, so I think we all live in that world now and this is confuses people about him. So, a historian called Todd Hart wrote a book still really the only book published in English on the history of CIDOC and Cuernavaca, in which he says Illich is anti-missionary. And he rebukes him for that and I would say that Ivan, on his assumptions cannot possibly be anti missionary. He says clearly in his early work that a Christian is a missionary or is not a Christian at all, in the sense that if one has heard the good news, one is going to share it, or one hasn't heard it. Now, what kind of sharing is that? It isn't necessarily, "you have to join my religion," "you have to subscribe to the following ten..." it isn't necessarily a catechism, it may be [00:42:00] an action. It may be a it may be an act of friendship. It may be an act of renunciation. It can be any number of things, but it has to be an outgoing expression of what one has been given, and I think he was, in that sense, always a missionary, and in many places, seeded communities that are seeds of the new church.Right? He spent well, from the time he arrived in the United States in 51, 52, till the time that he withdrew from church service in 68, he was constantly preaching and talking about a new church. And a new church, for him, involved a new relation between innovation and tradition. New, but not new.Since, when he looked back, he saw the gospel was constantly undergoing translation into new milieu, into new places, into new languages, into new forms.[00:43:00] But he encountered it in the United States as pretty much in one of its more hardened or congealed phases, right? And it was the export of that particular brand of cultural and imperialistic, because American, and America happened to be the hegemon of the moment. That's what he opposed.The translation of that into Latin America and people like to write each other into consistent positions, right? So, he must then be anti missionary across the board, right? But so I think you can be local and universal. I mean, one doesn't even want to recall that slogan of, you know, "act locally, think globally," because it got pretty hackneyed, right?And it was abused. But, it's true in a certain way that that's the only way one can be a Christian. The neighbor, you said it, I wrote it, Ivan said it, " the neighbor [00:44:00] can be anyone." Right?But here I am here now, right? So both have to apply. Both have to be true. It's again a complementary relation. And it's a banal thought in a certain way, but it seems to be the thought that I think most often, right, is that what creates a great deal of the trouble in the world is inability to think in a complementary fashion.To think within, to take contradiction as constituting the world. The world is constituted of contradiction and couldn't be constituted in any other way as far as we know. Right? You can't walk without two legs. You can't manipulate without two arms, two hands. We know the structure of our brains. Are also bilateral and everything about our language is constructed on opposition.Everything is oppositional and yet [00:45:00] when we enter the world of politics, it seems we're going to have it all one way. The church is going to be really Christian, and it's going to make everybody really Christian, or communist, what have you, right? The contradiction is set aside. Philosophy defines truth as the absence of contradiction.Hmm. Basically. Hmm. So, be in both worlds. Know the difference. Walk on two feet. That's Ivan. Chris: I love that. And I'm, I'm curious about you know, one of the themes of the podcast is exile. And of course that can mean a lot of things. In the introduction to An Intellectual Journey, you wrote that that Illich, "once he had left Split in the 30s, that he began an experience of exile that would characterize his entire life."You wrote that he had lost "not just the home, but the very possibility [00:46:00] of home." And so it's a theme that characterizes as well the podcast and a lot of these conversations around travel, migration, tourism, what does it mean to be at home and so, this, This notion of exile also shows up quite a bit in the Christian faith.And maybe this is me trying to escape the complementarity of the reality of things. But I tend to see exile as inherently I'll say damaging or consequential in a kind of negative light. And so I've been wondering about this, this exilic condition, right? It's like in the Abrahamic faith, as you write "Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all begin in exile.And eventually this pattern culminates. Jesus is executed outside the gates of the city, nailed to a cross that excludes him even from his native earth." And you write that "exile is in many ways the [00:47:00] Christian condition." And so, you know, I've read that in the past, Christian monks often consider themselves to be homeless, removed from the sort of daily life of the local community in the monasteries and abbeys and yet still of a universal brotherhood. And so I'd like to ask you if you feel this exilic condition, which seems to be also a hallmark of modernity, this kind of constant uprooting this kind of as I would call it, cultural and spiritual homelessness of our time, if you think that is part of the corruption that Illich based his work around?David: Well, one can barely imagine the world in which Abram, who became Abraham said to God, no, I'm staying in Ur. Not going, I'm not going. Right? I mean, if you go back to Genesis and you re read that passage, when God shows [00:48:00] Abraham the land that he will inherit, it says already there, "there were people at that time living in the land," right?Inconvenient people, as it turns out. Palestinians. So, there's a profound contradiction here, I think. And the only way I think you can escape it is to understand the Gospel the way Ivan understood it, which is as something super added to existing local cultures, right? A leaven, right?Hmm. Not everything about a local culture or a local tradition is necessarily good. Mm hmm. And so it can be changed, right? And I would say that Illich insists that Christians are and must be missionaries. They've received something that they it's inherent in what they've [00:49:00] received that they pass it on.So the world will change, right? But Ivan says, this is in Rivers North of the Future, that it's his conviction that the Gospel could have been preached without destroying local proportions, the sense of proportion, and he put a great weight on the idea of proportionality as not just, a pleasing building or a pleasing face, but the very essence of, of how a culture holds together, right, that things are proportioned within it to one another that the gospel could have been preached without the destruction of proportions, but evidently it wasn't, because the Christians felt they had the truth and they were going to share it. They were going to indeed impose it for the good of the other.So, I think a sense of exile and a sense of home are as [00:50:00] necessary to one another as in Ivan's vision of a new church, innovation, and tradition, or almost any other constitutive couplet you can think of, right? You can't expunge exile from the tradition. But you also can't allow it to overcome the possibility of home.I mean, Ivan spoke of his own fate as a peculiar fate, right? He really anticipated the destruction of the Western culture or civilization. I mean, in the sense that now this is a lament on the political right, mainly, right? The destruction of Western civilization is something one constantly hears about.But, he, in a way, in the chaos and catastrophe of the 30s, already felt the death of old Europe. And even as a boy, I think, semi consciously at least, took the roots inside himself, took them with him [00:51:00] and for many people like me, he opened that tradition. He opened it to me. He allowed me to re inhabit it in a certain way, right?So to find intimations of home because he wasn't the only one who lost his home. Even as a man of 78, the world in which I grew up here is gone, forgotten, and to some extent scorned by younger people who are just not interested in it. And so it's through Ivan that I, in a way, recovered the tradition, right?And if the tradition is related to the sense of home, of belonging to something for good or ill, then that has to be carried into the future as best we can, right? I think Ivan was searching for a new church. He didn't think. He had found it. He didn't think he knew what it was.I don't think he [00:52:00] described certain attributes of it. Right. But above all, he wanted to show that the church had taken many forms in the past. Right. And it's worldly existence did not have to be conceived on the model of a monarchy or a parish, right, another form that he described in some early essays, right.We have to find the new form, right? It may be radically non theological if I can put it like that. It may not necessarily involve the buildings that we call churches but he believed deeply in the celebrating community. As the center, the root the essence of social existence, right? The creation of home in the absence of home, or the constant recreation of home, right? Since I mean, we will likely never again live in pure [00:53:00] communities, right? Yeah. I don't know if pure is a dangerous word, but you know what I mean?Consistent, right? Closed. We're all of one kind, right? Right. I mean, this is now a reactionary position, right? Hmm. You're a German and you think, well, Germany should be for the Germans. I mean, it can't be for the Germans, seemingly. We can't put the world back together again, right?We can't go back and that's a huge misreading of Illich, right? That he's a man who wants to go back, right? No. He was radically a man who wanted to rediscover the future. And rescue it. Also a man who once said to hell with the future because he wanted to denounce the future that's a computer model, right? All futures that are projections from the present, he wanted to denounce in order to rediscover the future. But it has to be ahead of us. It's not. And it has to recover the deposit that is behind us. So [00:54:00] both, the whole relation between past and future and indeed the whole understanding of time is out of whack.I think modern consciousness is so entirely spatialized that the dimension of time is nearly absent from it, right? The dimension of time as duration as the integument by which past, present and future are connected. I don't mean that people can't look at their watch and say, you know, "I gotta go now, I've got a twelve o'clock." you know.So, I don't know if that's an answer to James.Chris: I don't know, but it's food for thought and certainly a feast, if I may say so. David, I have two final questions for you, if that's all right, if you have time. Okay, wonderful. So, speaking of this notion of home and and exile and the complementarity of the two and you know you wrote and [00:55:00] spoke to this notion of Illich wanting to rediscover the future and he says that "we've opened a horizon on which new paradigms for thought can appear," which I think speaks to what you were saying and At some point Illich compares the opening of horizons to leaving home on a pilgrimage, as you write in your book."And not the pilgrimage of the West, which leads over a traveled road to a famed sanctuary, but rather the pilgrimage of the Christian East, which does not know where the road might lead and the journey end." And so my question is, What do you make of that distinction between these types of pilgrimages and what kind of pilgrimage do you imagine might be needed in our time?David: Well, I, I mean, I think Ivan honored the old style of pilgrimage whether it was to [00:56:00] Canterbury or Santiago or wherever it was to. But I think ivan's way of expressing the messianic was in the word surprise, right? One of the things that I think he did and which was imposed on him by his situation and by his times was to learn to speak to people in a way that did not draw on any theological resource, so he spoke of his love of surprises, right? Well, a surprise by definition is what you don't suspect, what you don't expect. Or it couldn't be a surprise.So, the The cathedral in Santiago de Compostela is very beautiful, I think. I've only ever seen pictures of it, but you must expect to see it at the end of your road. You must hope to see it at the end of your road. Well the surprise is going to be something else. Something that isn't known.[00:57:00] And it was one of his Great gifts to me that within the structure of habit and local existence, since I'm pretty rooted where I am. And my great grandfather was born within walking distance of where I am right now. He helped me to look for surprises and to accept them also, right?That you're going to show up or someone else is going to show up, right? But there's going to be someone coming and you want to look out for the one who's coming and not, but not be at all sure that you know who or what it is or which direction it's coming from. So, that was a way of life in a certain way that I think he helped others within their limitations, within their abilities, within their local situations, to see the world that way, right. That was part of what he did. Chris: Yeah, it's really beautiful and I can [00:58:00] see how in our time, in a time of increasing division and despondency and neglect, fear even, resentment of the other, that how that kind of surprise and the lack of expectation, the undermining, the subversion of expectation can find a place into perhaps the mission of our times.And so my final question comes back to friendship. and interculturality. And I have one final quote here from An Intellectual Journey, which I highly recommend everyone pick up, because it's just fascinating and blows open so many doors. David: We need to sell a few more books, because I want that book in paperback. Because I want it to be able to live on in a cheaper edition. So, yes. Chris: Of course. Thank you. Yeah. Please, please pick it up. It's worth every penny. So in An Intellectual Journey, it is written[00:59:00] by Illich that "when I submit my heart, my mind, my body, I come to be below the other. When I listen unconditionally, respectfully, courageously, with the readiness to take in the other as a radical surprise, I do something else. I bow, bend over toward the total otherness of someone. But I renounce searching for bridges between the other and me, recognizing that a gulf separates us.Leaning into this chasm makes me aware of the depth of my loneliness, and able to bear it in the light of the substantial likeness between the Other and myself. All that reaches me is the Other in His Word, which I accept on faith."And so, David at another point in the biography you quote Illich describing faith as foolish. Now assuming that faith elicits a degree of danger or [01:00:00] betrayal or that it could elicit that through a kind of total trust, is that nonetheless necessary to accept the stranger or other as they are? Or at least meet the stranger or other as they are? David: I would think so, yeah. I mean the passage you've quoted, I think to understand it, it's one of the most profound of his sayings to me and one I constantly revert to, but to accept the other in his word, or on his word, or her word, is, I think you need to know that he takes the image of the word as the name of the Lord, very, very seriously, and its primary way of referring to the Christ, is "as the Word."Sometimes explicitly, sometimes not explicitly, you have to interpret. So, when he says that he renounces looking for bridges, I think he's mainly referring [01:01:00] to ideological intermediations, right, ways in which I, in understanding you exceed my capacity. I try to change my name for you, or my category for you, changes you, right?It doesn't allow your word. And, I mean, he wasn't a man who suffered fools gladly. He had a high regard for himself and used his time in a fairly disciplined way, right? He wasn't waiting around for others in their world. So by word, what does he mean?What is the other's word? Right? It's something more fundamental than the chatter of a person. So, I think what that means is that we can be linked to one another by Christ. So that's [01:02:00] the third, right? That yes, we're alone. Right? We haven't the capacity to reach each other, except via Christ.And that's made explicit for him in the opening of Aylred of Riveau's Treatise on Friendship, which was peculiarly important to him. Aylred was an abbot at a Cistercian monastery in present day Yorkshire, which is a ruin now. But he wrote a treatise on friendship in the 12th century and he begins by addressing his brother monk, Ivo, and says, you know, " here we are, you and I, and I hope a third Christ."So, Christ is always the third, right? So, in that image of the gulf, the distance, experiencing myself and my loneliness and yet renouncing any bridge, there is still a word, the word, [01:03:00] capital W, in which a word, your word, my word, participates, or might participate. So, we are building, according to him, the body of Christ but we have to renounce our designs on one another, let's say, in order to do that. So I mean, that's a very radical saying, the, the other in his word and in another place in The Rivers North of the Future, he says how hard that is after a century of Marxism or Freudianism, he mentions. But, either way he's speaking about my pretension to know you better than you know yourself, which almost any agency in our world that identifies needs, implicitly does. I know what's best for you. So Yeah, his waiting, his ability to wait for the other one is, is absolutely [01:04:00] foundational and it's how a new world comes into existence. And it comes into existence at every moment, not at some unimaginable future when we all wait at the same time, right? My friend used to say that peace would come when everybody got a good night's sleep on the same night. It's not very likely, is it? Right, right, right. So, anyway, there we are. Chris: Wow. Well, I'm definitely looking forward to listening to this interview again, because I feel like just like An Intellectual Journey, just like your most recent book my mind has been, perhaps exploded, another nuclear bomb dropped.David: Chris, nice to meet you. Chris: Yeah, I'll make sure that that book and, of course, links to yours are available on the end of the website. David: Alright, thank you. Chris: Yeah, deep bow, David. Thank you for your time today. David: All the best. And thank you for those questions. Yeah. That was that was very interesting. You know, I spent my life as an interviewer. A good part of my [01:05:00] life. And interviewing is very hard work. It's much harder than talking. Listening is harder than talking. And rarer. So, it's quite a pleasure for me, late in life, to be able to just let her rip, and let somebody else worry about is this going in the right direction? So, thank you. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

REMINDER TO SIGN UP FOR THE 8-WEEK COURSE BEFORE SEPT. 15! https://www.theenneagramschool.com/dreams-and-the-enneagram-class  Today, Kristen and Kaisa explore the idea of what ‘identity' is, how it is seen by the ego, how it's perceived or talked about in the ‘collective', what even is the ‘collective', and how confusing all of this stuff is. They discuss personal examples, where they are currently, and how this material is allowing them to change the way they see themselves and the world. “The self divided is precisely where the self is authentically located... We all have identity crises because a single identity is a delusion of the monotheistic mind... Authenticity is in the illusion, playing it, seeing through it from within as we play it, like an actor who sees through his mask and can only see in this way.” - James Hillman

  Trickster Medicine Today is the exact 28th anniversary of the Visionary Activist Show, September 5th, 1996 First guest – James Hillman, splendiferous humming with current pertinence show, that we re-play today, in a discussion that could have happened 20 minutes ago, about the importance of ‘growing down' into one's self, recognizing demonic mythological possession at play, and awakening the imagination of everyone to dream the desirable world into being …followed by Democracy Now clip with Gershon Baskin, with whom we dedicate to the Peace Deal he animates… Democracy Now began the same year as Visionary Activist Show… We are Democracy Now – On Mushrooms, entheo edition, restoring astro*mytho*politico participatory literacy woof to culture… Vision and Action be Trickster Medicine, the sine qua non for effectively  vitalizing all our dedications….. Let's hold many stories simultaneously, cooperating with the good in all…     Caroline W. Casey · www.CoyoteNetworkNews.com The post The Visionary Activist Show – 28 Years of Trickster Medicine! appeared first on KPFA.

Award-winning journalist and Hillman biographer Dick Russell discusses his recent book The Life and Ideas of James Hillman: Volume II: Revisioning Psychology with Patricia Martin. Dick Russell is the award-winning author of fifteen non-fiction books, including three New York Times best-sellers. In addition to his biographical trilogy about depth psychologist James Hillman, he has just […] The post Jung in the World | Decoding James Hillman with Dick Russell appeared first on C. G. Jung Institute of Chicago.

Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/LEPHTHANDIn this monologue, Sereptie explores the fascinating intersections of alchemy, psychoanalysis, and poststructuralist philosophy. The discussion centers around the concept of alchemical salt, its significance in Renaissance alchemical traditions, and its appropriation in 20th-century psychological theories. This episode connects these ideas with the works of Carl Jung, James Hillman, and Jacques Derrida, offering a unique perspective on the formation and function of subjectivity and how they challenge the polemics of Jordan Peterson.Support the Show.Support the podcast:https://www.acidhorizonpodcast.com/Linktree: https://linktr.ee/acidhorizonAcid Horizon on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/acidhorizonpodcastSubscribe to us on your favorite podcast: https://pod.link/1512615438Merch: http://www.crit-drip.comOrder 'Anti-Oculus: A Philosophy of Escape': https://repeaterbooks.com/product/anti-oculus-a-philosophy-of-escape/Order 'The Philosopher's Tarot': https://repeaterbooks.com/product/the-philosophers-tarot/Subscribe to us on your favorite podcast: https://pod.link/1512615438 LEPHT HAND: https://www.patreon.com/LEPHTHANDHappy Hour at Hippel's (Adam's blog): https://happyhourathippels.wordpress.com​Revolting Bodies (Will's Blog): https://revoltingbodies.com​Split Infinities (Craig's Substack): https://splitinfinities.substack.com/​Music: https://sereptie.bandcamp.com/ and https://thecominginsurrection.bandcamp.com/

A reflection on James Hillman's notion that growth is a type of loss. Be sure to subscribe on my website if you want more info about preordering, the book launch party and more! https://www.quiqueautrey.com/book

To honour the milestone 50th episode, I'm joined by Richard Tarnas, a renowned historian and archetypal cosmologist. August 8th is the peak of the astrological event known as the Lion's Gate Portal. The Sun (in Leo) aligns with Sirius, Orion's Belt, and Earth. Simultaneously, Orion's Belt aligns with the Pyramids of Giza. Ancient Egyptians revered Sirius, the “spiritual star,” and associated it with gods Osiris and Sopdet. Each year the rising of Sirius marked the flooding of the Nile. As author of The Passion of the Western Mind and Cosmos and Psyche, Richard is the ideal guest to mark the occasion. He is the founding director of the graduate program in Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness at the California Institute of Integral Studies. He teaches courses in the history of ideas, archetypal studies, depth psychology, and religious evolution. For ten years he lived and worked at Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California, studying with the likes of Stanislav Grof, Joseph Campbell, and James Hillman, later serving as Esalen's director of programs and education. In re-enchanting the Western worldview, Richard traces the historical and cultural roots of the modern mind. Although much was gained, much was lost, including the ensoulment of the cosmos, and a sense of participation with higher forms of intelligence. Is civilisation experiencing a mythological fall from grace due to human hubris? Is global chaos a symbolic manifestation of humanity's descent into the underworld? How can a new worldview support spiritual transformation, sense-making, and flourishing on a global scale? Before we begin, one more special announcement: Richard is one of a number of contributing authors, including myself, for the new volume by the Academy for the Advancement of Postmaterialist Sciences: The Playful Universe: Synchronicity and the Nature of Consciousness. The book is released late August, with an online symposium scheduled for the 26th or 27th September. Resources Richard's Website. Article: Introduction to The Playful Universe: Synchronicity and the Nature of Consciousness. Article: Is The Modern Psyche Undergoing a Rite of Passage? Epilogue of Passion of the Western Mind.

Animals have been an integral part of human existence since our earliest origins. They are deeply ingrained within us and play a crucial role in the unconscious. In various religions, animals are revered as gods. Swiss psychiatrist and psychologist Carl Jung frequently remarked that animals embodied the divine aspect of the human psyche. He wrote a bold statement for a thinker of his era, "Even domestic animals, to whom we erroneously deny a conscience, have complexes and moral reactions.” We belong to the animal kingdom, and knowing this is part of the individuation process, the journey towards wholeness. Yet, we seem to have forgotten our roots. The animal is a symbol of the Self. It embodies the complete wisdom of nature yet does not possess the light of human consciousness. Animals are deeply connected to a “secret” order within nature itself and the absolute knowledge of the unconscious, living according to their own inner laws beyond human notions of good and evil. Animals live exactly as they were meant to live, and grasp a sense of wholeness instinctively, rather than intellectually. They are the ones who can lead us to this source of natural life.

Philosopher, Scientist, Author and mystic, Dr. Tom Cheetham enters the mind meld. Video episode

GUEST 1 OVERVIEW: Dick Russell, author of The Real RFK Jr.: Trials of a Truth Warrior, is an investigative journalist and the eclectic author of fifteen books, including three New York Times bestsellers co-authored with Jesse Ventura and Eye of the Whale, named a Best Book of the Year in 2001 by three major newspapers. His book The Man Who Knew Too Much, probing the forces behind the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, has been hailed as a “masterpiece of historical reconstruction.” The final two volumes of his biographical trilogy, The Life and Ideas of James Hillman, are being published in 2023. Russell is also the author of Black Genius and the American Experience and the memoir My Mysterious Son: A Life-Changing Passage Between Schizophrenia and Shamanism. He was a recipient of the citizen's Chevron Conservation Award for his environmental activism. Russell resides in Los Angeles. GUEST 2 OVERVIEW: Edward Berenson is a professor of history at NYU and NYU's Institute of French Studies. Berenson is a cultural historian specializing in the history of modern France and its empire, with additional interests in the history of Britain, the British Empire, and the United States. In 1999, Berenson received the American Historical Association's Eugene Asher Distinguished Teaching Award, having earlier won UCLA's Distinguished Teaching Award. In 2006, French President Jacques Chirac decorated him as Chevalier de l'Ordre du Mérite.

Kaisa and Kristen continue talking about the themes, images, and other dissections of James Hillman's essay, ‘The Thought of the Heart'. Along with general discussion, this episode loosely summarizes the previous readings and investigates possible future discoveries in the heart center and the realm of dreams. Some personal reflections and sporadic concepts make their way into the conversation and direct the flow of the two nines vibing and incising. Resources; ‘Thought of the Heart' essay by James Hillman; http://www.compilerpress.ca/Competitiveness/Anno/Anno%20Hillman%20Thoughts.htm Josh Lavine & John Luckovich's course on the Developmental View of the Centers; https://www.theenneagramschool.com/developmental-centers Jason E. Smith; ‘Religious But Not Religious'

Kaisa and Kristen talk about James Hillman's essay ‘The Thought of the Heart' and how it relates to our connection (or lack of) to the heart center. We have personal as well as societal reflections on this material and what it could mean for individual types and where the heart is operating in our/their type structure. We get quite animated about the hidden gems of the heart center, and are determined to see what we start to uncover in the unconscious on the matter.  Resources; ‘Thought of the Heart' essay by James Hillman; http://www.compilerpress.ca/Competitiveness/Anno/Anno%20Hillman%20Thoughts.htm Josh Lavine & John Luckovich's course on the Developmental View of the Centers; https://www.theenneagramschool.com/developmental-centers Big Hormone Enneagram - Harlem Hearts https://open.spotify.com/episode/1S3WIcR1Zd047WP909n9VQ?si=319d989e3ad14b4d

Laurence Cole is a song elder and ritualist based in Port Townsend, Washington. An abiding thread throughout his life has been a longing to discover when, where, and how human beings have lived in respectful, sacred, equitable relationship with each other and the rest of Nature, and what arts, ethics, and practices enabled them to do so and pass such attitudes and behaviors on to the coming generations.   In these profoundly challenging times, characterized by separation, polarization, and the commodification of nearly everything, (and the consequent damage such a culture is wreaking on the life support systems of this world,) the capacity to stay together and work cooperatively as a people is crucial for effective healing and restorative action in all realms. The communal arts of group singing, ritual, and the collective crafting of beauty are primal “technologies” of connection and belonging, and have been the integral bedrock of all viable and regenerative cultures through the deep time of our presence here on Earth. When we take steps to reclaim that heritage, making use of nothing more than what we were born with, (our bodies, our hearts, our voices, our spirits) we can once again experience the bonding recognition that our true wealth is each other and that all flourishing is mutual.  Laurence has also been facilitating and offering community grief tending gatherings throughout North America for about 15 years.  His primary teachers and influences have been Sobonfu and Malidoma Somé, Angeles Arrien, Michael Meade, James Hillman, Francis Weller, Joanna Macy, and Martín Prechtel.  He is an advocate for this work not only for the ways it can bring release and healing for individuals, but also for the ways it can enable a renewed sense of respectful connection and belonging for groups of folks working together for restoration of mutually flourishing communityEpisode Highlights▶ Laurence's journey into grief work▶ The role of singing in grief rituals and why it is so powerful▶ The community and belonging we can find through grief work▶ The primal wound and modern disconnection▶ How we can find hope and healing in a disconnected worldLaurence Cole's Links & Resources▶ Website: http://www.laurencecole.com▶ Communal Grief Retreats with Laurence and Alexandra (ahlay) Blakely:  https://www.healingattheroots.com/communalgriefretreats▶ Grief Tending Mentoring Program: https://sacredgroves.com/intro-grief-tending  Download Beth's free business trainings here: Integrating Psychedelics & Sacred Medicines Into a Transformational Business:https://bethaweinstein.com/psychedelics-in-businessClarity to Clients: Start & Grow a Transformational Coaching, Healing, Spiritual, or Psychedelic Business https://bethaweinstein.com/grow-your-spiritual-business ▶ Beth's Programs & Courses: https://bethaweinstein.com/services▶ Beth on Instagram: http://instagram.com/bethaweinstein▶ Beth Weinstein on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bethw.nychttps://www.facebook.com/BethWeinsteinbiz▶ Join the free Psychedelics & Purpose Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PsychedelicsandSacredMedicines

A dvar Torah on parashat Acharei Mot by Agnes Borinsky. With Aaron, grief, James Hillman, imitation, blood and gay sex.

Buy the books mentioned in the discussion: The English Heretic Collection: Ritual Histories, Magickal Geography: https://repeaterbooks.com/product/the-english-heretic-collection-ritual-histories-magickal-geography/The Astral Geographic: The Watkins Guide to the Occult World: https://watkinspublishing.com/books/the-astral-geographic-the-watkins-guide-to-the-occult-world/: Anti-Oculus: A Philosophy of Escape: https://repeaterbooks.com/product/anti-oculus-a-philosophy-of-escape/Craig from Acid Horizon sits down with fellow Repeater author Andy Sharp to discuss various political implications of James Hillman's theory of dreams, namely the how "the underworld" of our dreams resists the dictates of life under capitalism. Also featured in the discussion is Mark Fisher's 'acid communism' and the life and work of the mysterious alchemist Fulcanelli.Support the showSupport the podcast:https://www.acidhorizonpodcast.com/Linktree: https://linktr.ee/acidhorizonAcid Horizon on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/acidhorizonpodcastZer0 Books and Repeater Media Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/zer0repeaterMerch: http://www.crit-drip.comOrder 'Anti-Oculus: A Philosophy of Escape': https://repeaterbooks.com/product/anti-oculus-a-philosophy-of-escape/Order 'The Philosopher's Tarot': https://repeaterbooks.com/product/the-philosophers-tarot/Subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts: https://tinyurl.com/169wvvhiHappy Hour at Hippel's (Adam's blog): https://happyhourathippels.wordpress.com​Revolting Bodies (Will's Blog): https://revoltingbodies.com​Split Infinities (Craig's Substack): https://splitinfinities.substack.com/​Music: https://sereptie.bandcamp.com/ and https://thecominginsurrection.bandcamp.com/

This espresso shot solo episode is an excerpt from my recent Masterclass: 2024: Your Breakthrough Year. In this episode, I explore the transformative power of initiations, guided by insights from Francis Weller and James Hillman. I talk about the three parts of initiation: severance from the world you once knew, radical alteration to your sense of identity, and inability to go back to the world you knew. I also discuss the power of community during these personal transformations, the importance of prioritizing our instincts as well as alchemizing our knowledge into action. This episode is an invitation to align our actions and remember that true transformation comes from within. Get the full recording at markgroves.com/2024 —Full Masterclass recording: https://mark-groves.mykajabi.com/Masterclass-2024-sign-up —Follow me on Instagram - @createthelove: https://www.instagram.com/createthelove —Subscribe to my Newsletter: https://mark-groves.mykajabi.com/newsletter —Subscribe to my Substack: https://markgroves.substack.com —Follow me on Facebook - @createthelove: https://www.facebook.com/createthelove —Get My New Book! Liberated Love - Release Codependent Patterns and Create the Love You Desire: https://a.co/d/91ElXvN If you want to dive deeper into my content, search through every episode, find specific topics I've covered, and ask me questions, go to my Dexa page: https://dexa.ai/markgroves Themes: Authenticity, Belonging, Breakups, Relationships, Spirituality, Boundaries, Self-Worth, Self-Love, Codependency, Infidelity, Dating, Transformation, Career, Mental Health, Purpose, Initiations, Community 0:00:00 Intro 0:00:33 Initiations and its Three Parts 0:01:58 Identity Shift: Embracing the Unknown 0:02:35 A Radical Alteration: Severance from the Familiar World 0:03:12 The Distractions from Self 0:03:50 The Screen Report and Lack of Time for Personal Growth 0:04:19 The Power of Community 0:06:09 Trusting Your Instincts and Ignoring Outside Opinions 0:06:37 Pursuing Your Calling as an Imperative 0:07:26 Being Yourself in Relationships 0:09:25 Finding Inner Strength Again 0:10:24 Where You're Not Liberated 0:10:41 The Mind's Limitations in Understanding Reality 0:11:31 Knowledge vs. Action: The Importance of Living in Integrity Drop us a note at podcast@markgroves.com for sponsor product support, questions, comments, guest suggestions, or just to say hello! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

STEPHEN AIZENSTAT, Ph.D., is the founder of Pacifica Graduate Institute, Dream Tending, and the Academy of Imaginal Arts and Sciences. For more than 35 years, he has explored the power of dreams through depth psychology. He has collaborated with Joseph Campbell, Marion Woodman, Robert Johnson, James Hillman, and Native elders worldwide. He conducts dreamwork and imagination seminars throughout the US, Europe, and Asia. For more, visit dreamtending.com Sign up for 10% off of Shrink Rap Radio CE credits at the Zur Institute

For more information about alchemy, we do not recommend looking to the alchemists. Because who knows what they were talking about?! Please check out Jeffrey Raff's "Jung and the Alchemical Imagination," or James Hillman's "The Alchemy of Psychology," which is available in audio form on Spotify.  If you wanna feel REALLY alchemized, head to http://patreon.com/thefundamentalists. It is one of the few Patreons where you get less for more.  **The Fundamentalists** is available here: iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fundamentalists/id1346820645 Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkLnBvZGJlYW4uY29tL3RoZWZ1bmRhbWVudGFsaXN0cy9mZWVkLnhtbA?sa=X&ved=0CAMQ4aUDahgKEwiQjIKs963vAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQ4AE Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/68aaf57c-97d1-4ab2-9e73-02bc5884217b/The-Fundamentalists Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1GeviZEtqrzMtjO57S31fk?si=KpJ8282uSB6vWunicWpbkA Podbean: https://thefundamentalists.podbean.com iHeartRadio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-the-fundamentalists-31087767/ PlayerFM: https://player.fm/series/the-fundamentalists-2360037 Listen Notes: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-fundamentalists-elliott-morgan-and-S9xk4N21VLT/ Thank you to everyone who makes this podcast possible. Feel free to leave us your OWN review over at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fundamentalists/id1346820645 You know how many alchemists died because they blew themselves up? It's higher than zero, I'll tell ya that.