Podcast appearances and mentions of stephen jenkinson

In this festive wedding season, what if matrimony wasn't here to affirm the intensity of love between two people but a courageous submission to the unknown?  Jennifer speaks with Stephen Jenkinson—cultural activist, author, ceremonialist—about the necessary burdens of love through the ritual of matrimony. With characteristic poetic edge, Stephen challenges the Western obsession with autonomy, authenticity and safety and gestures toward a redemptive cultural project: one of radical hospitality, memory, and the mystery of matrimony as a village-making act.Together they dive into:How matrimony is distinct from weddings and is rooted in mothering culture, not just romantic loveThe lost valence of patrimony, and what it asks of usThe role of the stranger in belonging and village makingWhy being “yourself” might not be the gift you think it isThis conversation reveals how ritual and ceremony thins the membrane with other worlds, makes congress with the divine and helps us honor what's come before —so we might find our place, and responsibility, in what's yet to come.Links & Resources:Order Stephen Jenkinson's newest book Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work Learn more about Orphan Wisdom SchoolGet Jennifer's biweekly newsletter for radical encouragement on the hard mess of being humanConnect with Jennifer on Instagram or LinkedIn Gratitude for this show's theme song Inside the House, composed by the talented Yukon musician, multi-instrumentalist and sound artist Jordy Walker. Artwork by the imaginative writer, filmmaker and artist Jon Marro.

Hey For The Wild community, it's Ayana. It's been a minute. Life has been moving—fast, deep, and full. I've grown, and with that growth, a clearer sense of what I want to share with you has come into focus.After nearly a decade of digital episodes, I felt a longing—an ache to be in person, on the land, and heart to heart with our guests. That's why you may have noticed we've slowed down on weekly releases. Instead, we've been on the road, spending sacred, unhurried time with people we love—tending to conversations that are raw, intimate, funny, beautiful, edgy, and alive.We were hoping to keep it under wraps a little longer, but we're just too excited: the first season of our new walking series will be released soon, and it features the luminous Sophie Strand. This series is an in-person, land-based conversation that is intimate, weird, raw, beautiful exploration of land, grief, myth, pleasure, and more. These aren't studio-perfect interviews, they're alive.But there's more. We're also creating an anthology—a wild and tender book featuring Sophie and 20 other contributors like Tyson Yunkaporta, Sylvia Linsteadt, adrienne maree brown, Dori Midnight, and Stephen Jenkinson. It's an archive, an altar, a trail companion—a distillation of 10 years of For The Wild with essays, art, poetry, rituals, and deep questions. It asks us what it means to live in fragmentary times and still root deeply. We hope to print it later this year.To bring these projects to life, we need your support.We're looking for funding partners, sponsors, and publishers—and we're dreaming of a book tour from the West Coast to the East, and across the pond to Europe.If you're an individual, foundation, or aligned company that wants to support the Sophie Strand series, reach out.If you're a publisher or lit world comrade, I'd love to connect.If you'd like to host a live gathering for the book tour, let's talk—we'd love to share good food, real talk, and tender moments with your community.Email us at connect@forthewild.worldThank you for walking with us—whether you've been here since the beginning or just arrived. My heart is racing as I share this with you. It feels risky, but right. Vulnerable, but true. And I'm so grateful.In the meantime, you can spend some deep time with us through our Earthly Reads Series and Book Study or Bayo Akomolafe's We Will Dance with Mountains: Vunja! course—both on our website.And of course, we've got over 350 episodes waiting for you on your favorite platform.Here's to what comes next. With love,Ayana♫ The music featured in this update is “Das Nuvens (Live)” by Fabiano do Nascimento, courtesy of Leaving Records.Support the show

This is a special re-release of an episode featuring guest host Jackson Kroopf speaking with the incomparable Kimberly Ann Johnson and Stephen Jenkinson. We're bringing this conversation back to let you know about something special happening this weekend from Stephen Jenkinson and the Orphan Wisdom School: Sanity and Soul: Die Wise 10 Years. Taking place on March 15th and 16th at 10am Pacific, this 6-part online event is a deep dive into the wisdom of death, grief, and the soul, 10 years after the publication of Stephen's transformative book Die Wise. You'll get to experience the depth of Stephen's work in a pretty unique way: through 4 recorded grief counsel sessions with dying people, hearing Stephen practice, in 2025, the kind of work described in Die Wise. Plus, he'll be joined by two brilliant colleagues—a neuroscientist studying human consciousness and a filmmaker exploring the afterlife—to discuss the lasting impact of Die Wise on grief counseling, death doulas, and the way these ideas continue to shape our world. If you want to learn more and register, visit orphanwisdom.com/events. But now, enjoy this conversation from March 2023, following Reckoning at Mt. Madonna. Please do consider gifting yourself or a loved one this upcoming offering, Sanity & Soul that promises to provide some ceremony in these  troubled times in ways only Stephen and the Orphan Wisdom School can. Link: https://orphanwisdom.com/event/die-wise-sanity-and-soul-ten-years-on/   What You'll Here in this Episode: Reflections on witness from retired birth and death workers The value of disillusionment The power of loneliness The proliferation of self pathologizing The complex politics of feelings The religion of western psychology Adolescents grabbing for pop psychology labels The respect in not offering solutions The eagerness to escape from pain while grieving Is love dead? Blessing not as approval but the emergence of something new Marriage as both celebration and loss Matrimony between cultures An only child and single parent inviting in a new husband Building an escape route as you enter a union The no-go zone of contemporary western marriage 15 minute weddings, 15 minute funerals, 15 minute births The cultural casualties of uniformity Being healthy enough to tend to home and neighbor   Links ig @reckoning live Sanity & Soul Sign-Up https://orphanwisdom.com/event/die-wise-sanity-and-soul-ten-years-on/

I've been (earnestly) taking courses, workshops and seminars these last few years, while producing over 300 podcasts about art and ecology, as my way of helping future generations prepare for what we are leaving them. My most recent learning and unlearning exercise is Surviving the Future: The Deeper Dive 2025, a 10 week course inspired by the work of British ecologist David Fleming. I wrote about the first three weeks of the course in prepare, bend, sustain posting (also available in audio). So this is part 2 of 2. Surviving the Future has been very influential in my life. I took it while I was on break from my conscient podcast and it has helped figure out what to do next, which I outline in a conscient rethink (also available in audio).My key research questions are :What needs to be said ? (what is content that is not being heard)Who needs to say it ? (who are the right person(s) to tell the story or explain the issue)Who wants to hear it ? (who is the audience and needs to hear it)How does it help? (eg people who are already overwhelmed: how can a podcast help move things forward)So what was Surviving the Future like? It was dense and wonderfully curated by Shaun Chamberlin and others. Here's an example. On Monday February 24, 2025, our special guests were the dynamic mother/daughter duo Vanessa and Gina Andreotti, both members of the Gesturing Towards Decolonial Futures (GTDF) collective.  I often refer to the GTDF's work in my learnings.The session centered around Burnout From Humans : A Little Book About AI That Is Not Really About AI:a playful reflection on complexity, connection, and the future of human-AI relationships. Co-authored by an emergent intelligence and a human researcher, this work explores the tangled dynamics of humanity's relationship with artificial intelligence, Earth, and itself.It was an engaging and challenging session about AI from indigenous and decolonial perspectives. After our exchange, Vanessa and the GTDF collective published an Open letter to the participants of the Surviving the Future program, which I was a part of. They offered feedback and learnings from our conversation, such as the distinction between critique and jurisdiction and how the architecture of power often remains invisible to those who have historically and systemically benefited from it.Benefactors like myself. The session was difficult but empowering. Looking into the mirror like that is when I realized that Surviving the Future was also about knowing and surviving myself, understanding myself and overcoming, as Vanessa Andretotti notes, the ‘limits that modernity continuously tries to impose'.We certainly faced some of those limitations. This excerpt from the February 24th letter resonates and haunts me :The world as we have known it is unraveling. Both the dominant frameworks and those once seen as transgressive are failing to hold. This collapse is not just structural; it is psychological. The infrastructures that stabilized people within modernity—its myths, its promises, its assurances, its rhythms of control—are breaking apart. The result will not be gentle. We must prepare for a long, messy, species-wide existential meltdown.How does one prepare for a long, messy, species-wide existential meltdown?Here a short story.I was a deputy returning officer at the February 27, 2025, Ontario provincial election. My job was to confirm the eligibility of voters and hand them a ballot.It was my civic duty and an opportunity to get to know some of my neighbours and co-citizens. Some voters had just turned 18 and were visibly excited about participating in democracy for the first time.As I handed each young adult a ballot, I looked them in the eye, wished them well, but in the back of my mind I could not help thinking about the ‘long, messy, species-wide existential meltdown' that awaits them.Now most young adults are well aware of this incoming meltdown. They talk about it openly.For example, my son, historian Riel Schryer, in conscient e154:I don't think there's going to be any serious response to the climate crisis until real catastrophes start happening. That tends to be how it works. And once you start seeing that, then you'll start seeing very serious action being put in place. Although, we'll see at that point, if it's too late or not.Also, my daughter, scientist Clara Schryer, in conscient e208:… changes happen : there are always ways to adapt. That's not to say that the initial change might not be kind of catastrophic, but there's always going to be something left and you have to work with that.Is it too late?How do we work with what is left? At a Surviving the Future reflection session on March 6th course leader Shaun Chamberlin read to us this quote by Canadian writer, teacher and grief literacy advocate Stephen Jenkinson :The question is not ‘are we going to fail?'  The question is ‘how?' The question is what shall be the manner of our inability to care for what was entrusted to us?So what does a baby boomer like myself do to regain a sacred trust to future generations that my generation has betrayed? These are the kinds of questions and dilemmas that we pondered during the course and took a deeper dive into those issues.Thankfully we had access to a wide range of resources and conversations that helped us navigate these complex waters. For example, I found comfort in this excerpt from Paul Kingsnorth's Confessions of a Recovering Environmentalist :In an age in which ‘fighting for the planet' most often means tweeting, signing petitions, writing blogs and sometimes going on a march, the rhetoric seems not only overblown but likely to obscure the value of more focused, small-scale personal commitments to changing things for the better. … In 1978, [Wendell] Berry wrote to [Gary] Snyder … ‘Maybe the answer is to fight always for what you particularly love, not for abstractions and not against anything: don't fight against even the devil, and don't fight to “save the world”.' … Once you start thinking you are responsible, or can influence, everything, you are lost. When you take responsibility for a specific something, on the other hand, it's possible you might get somewhere.Local action kept coming up as a path forward during the course. The argument is that an individual can have the most impact locally such as with permaculture or community arts or really any form of action that engages with and preserves life where we live. The issue of grief also kept coming back. For example, this teaching from Stephen Jenkinson's So What Now?:Grief requires of us that we know what time we're in. And the great enemy of grief is hope. … Our time requires of us to be hope free. To burn through the false choice between hopeful and hopeless. … We don't require hope to proceed. We require grief to proceed.Conversations about grief led me to think about grief and grieving in the context of hope and hopelessness. The timing was good because during the course I was editing the first episode of season 6 of my conscient podcast and my conversation with farmer and educator Peter Janes and his father, archeologist and former museum director Robert R. Janes, of TreeEater Farm, touched upon hope and hopelessness :Here's Peter :I have a mixed relationship with that concept of hope. Because I actually genuinely have very little hope for the continuation of humanity. But then at the same time, every day I'm out here making bigger ponds and planting trees that I think will do better. And trying to bring on board people with the same ideas and visions. So it's a bit of a contradiction.Here's Bob's take: It's really easy to be hopeless. And I suppose it's rather contradictory to say hopeless but still want to do things constructively to overcome that hopelessness. And so, I guess that's what I mean. There are so many things we can do. I mean, we know what we need to do to weather this storm, but I guess the sacrifice and the suffering it's going to cause is just too much for people's imagination. So, there's middle ground with all that. And again, this farm is a source of being helpful, and I guess underneath that, being hopeful and a source of being. What was the mantra? Hopeless, but not helpless. Yeah. And the farm for me is that, is that tool, it's that environment. It's the context to do helpful things and to pave the way for the future.That's why I took the Surviving the Future course, hoping that a deeper dive, led by experts, would help me understand and face the complexities around us. I was not disappointed. Each week's readings, assignments, conversations, and meditations brought me deeper and deeper into, the compost of modernity, so to speak. I experienced intense moments of joy and sorrow. Of discouragement and hopefulness. Mostly, however, I was bewildered and slightly more able to acceptance to what is going on and explore new possibilities. Surviving the Future also helped me let go of my ego, by engaging in deeper listening to others and myself while release the compulsion to be the smartest kid in the room.No need to be anything other than an ordinary learner. Overall the course was both an exercise in humility and an opportunity to develop and maintain capacity. And that powerful February 24th open letter stayed with me, notably its conclusion: As a collective, we move with the discernment this moment demands—not with arrogance, but with honesty. Not in defiance, but in commitment. Not against anyone but reaching beyond the limits that modernity continuously tries to impose.So I'll work on discernment, honesty, commitment and reaching beyond.To be honest, this kind of introspection is hard work and we all need resources and support.Here are some of the resources from Surviving the Future that have been the most impactful and relevant for me: AIDEN CINNAMON TEA & DOROTHY LADYBUGBOSS' Burnout From Humans : A Little Book About AI That Is Not Really About AIDavid Fleming's: LEAN LOGIC - A DICTIONARY for the FUTURE and HOW to SURVIVE ITIsabelle Fremeaux & Jay Jordan's : We Are 'Nature' Defending ItselfJoanna Macy on The Great Turning and CollapseNate Hagens' Animated Series | The Great SimplificationThere are many more. I'll mention other resources in future postings. So what did I learn and unlearn during these 10 weeks? Do the best you can until you know better. Then, when you know better, do better (Maya Angelou)Staying with the trouble (Donna Haraway) : no more rushing around to quick fixes, conclusions, simplistic solutions or passing judgements on situations that are still unfoldingMeditate daily: I am not what I thinkThe Master's tools will never dismantle the Master's house (Audre Lorde)When the children born today look back 30 years from now, what actions would they be grateful that we took right now? (GTDF collective)I'll conclude with this excerpt from Shaun Chamberlin's The Secret Truth Behind Environmentalists' Favourite Argument :For me personally, the harsh truth is that I cannot save Nature and/or humanity from the ongoing devastation, though I could burn myself out trying. It seems to me that there is not one thing that I can do to divert history. And facing that reality hurts.  But, beyond agony, joy. I sit with that pain, and its attendant tears and rage, I refuse to run from it or to distract myself with entertainment or with frantic work, and I find that it does not end me. Eventually, I come out the other side, somehow empowered. The psychic energy I have been using to suppress that fear and despair is released, and I look at the world with fresh eyes. ‘Ok', I breathe, ‘here I am, in a dying world'. It's the same dying world I lived in yesterday, but today I see it for what it is. ‘What now?' And this time the question feels less desperate, less anxious. What story do I want to tell with this day, with this life? The question is suddenly filled with possibilities.My take on this, is that we need to explore the possibilities that emerge as we work our way through that ‘long, messy, species-wide existential meltdown' while calmly preparing for what comes after, with or without humans.BTW you might have noticed I did not mention art at all, in this posting.I'm rethinking my relationship with art. My definition of art, also, is evolving. I'll publish a separate piece called ‘l'art est mort : vive l'art' soon. Warm thanks Shaun, Nakasi, Nicole and all the Surviving the Future 2025 team and participants for their generosity and collaboration during the course and beyond.Note: The cover photo is of Henry Moore's Large Two Forms in Grange Park, Tkaronto. *END NOTES FOR ALL EPISODESHey conscient listeners, I've been producing the conscient podcast as a learning and unlearning journey since May 2020 on un-ceded Anishinaabe Algonquin territory (Ottawa). It's my way to give back and be present.In parallel with the production of the conscient podcast and its francophone counterpart, balado conscient, I publish a Substack newsletter called ‘a calm presence' see https://acalmpresence.substack.com. Your feedback is always welcome at claude@conscient.ca and/or on social media: Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin, Threads or BlueSky.I am grateful and accountable to the earth and the human labour that provided me with the privilege of producing this podcast, including the toxic materials and extractive processes behind the computers, recorders, transportation systems and infrastructure that made this production possible. Claude SchryerLatest update on March 13, 2025

In this episode, return guest Joelle Hann and Kimberly discuss the complexities of publishing, including traditional, self, and hybrid publishing. Joelle walks us through the importance of a book proposal, which serves as a roadmap for authors and a calling card for agents and publishers. Kimberly weighs in on her own experience in navigating the book publishing world and the incredible value she has found in working with Joelle. Joelle highlights the need for authors to understand their audience and market, and the potential pitfalls of self-publishing without an existing audience. Joelle's Book Proposal Academy is enrolling now and starts March 14th. This is the only cohort for 2025. Apply now! To be eligible to save up to $500 and get other early-bird bonuses, mention Sex, Birth, Trauma podcast in your application.  Bio Joelle Hann is an award-winning writer with a history of developing high-level book projects for major American publishers. Subject areas have included wellness and transformation, women's health, leadership and spirituality, as well as conscious business, personal finance and memoir. She has worked with top CEOs and humanitarian activists,visionary coaches and thought-leaders, spiritual teachers, scholars, moms, midwives, entrepreneurs, and many others. She founded Brooklyn Book Doctor to help people write transformational books to help change the world. Links IG @brooklynbookdoctor Learn More & Apply to Book Proposal Academy 2025: https://brooklynbookdoctor.com/bpa Learn More about Sanity & Soul: Die Wise Ten Years On with Stephen Jenkinson here: https://orphanwisdom.com/event/die-wise-sanity-and-soul-ten-years-on/

It's not often I feel nervous. I worked for many years as a photographer and met people from every stratum of society, from the wealthy and famous to the outcast and downtrodden. One thing I learnt early on is that nerves resulted in bad imagery. So when it came time for this podcast with Stephen Jenkinson, a man whose work I've followed for nearly a decade, I was nervous. It's not that Stephen is difficult to talk to or combative; it's because Stephen is a master of the English language, and each word he uses is carefully chosen based on its etymology. He also doesn't let you get away with anything if he believes you've incorrectly identified something. My nerves quickly abaited once I felt Stephen's generosity of spirit.   This is one of the most meaningful conversations I've had. Stephen traverses: - What we have lost in our modern societies, if there is a way back, and if there were, to what we think we are to return to. - Death and our lack of education around the ultimate which every life faces. - What it truly means to cultivate a mindset that sees us creating genuine connections to one another to create communities that will benefit future generations. Most of all, Stephen reminded me that our lives are shaped by the questions we ask rather than the answers we seek—in his own words, "I'm far more in favour of the wonder of the question than the certainty of the answer." As the great poet E.E. Cummings phrased it, "Always the most beautiful answer to he who asks the most beautiful question." It was an honor to speak with Stephen, and I know you'll get something significant from his life-long pursuit of asking the most beautiful questions.  It was an honor to speak with Stephen, and I know you'll get something significant from his life-long pursuit of asking the most beautiful questions.    About Stephen Jenkinson, MTS, MSW ~ Culture activist/ farmer/author ~ Stephen teaches internationally and has authored seven books of cultural critique. He is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010. The School's new project, The Scriptorium (2025), is creating an archive and library of his life's work. Apprenticed to a master storyteller as a young man, he worked extensively with dying people and their families. He is former programme director in a major Canadian hospital and former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. Stephen has Masters' degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). In 2023 Stephen received a Distinguished Alumni Honours Award from Harvard University for “helping people navigate grief, exploring the liminal space between life and death, and connecting humanity through ceremony and storytelling.” In August 2025, Sounds True will release Stephen's newest book: Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work.  He is also the author of Reckoning (co-written with Kimberly Ann Johnson in 2022), A Generation's Worth: Spirit Work While the Crisis Reigns (2021), Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Homecoming: The Haiku Sessions (a live teaching from 2013), How it All Could Be: A workbook for dying people and those who love them (2009), Angel and Executioner: Grief and the Love of Life (a live teaching from 2009), and Money and The Soul's Desires: A Meditation (2002). He was a contributing author to Palliative Care – Core Skills and Clinical Competencies (2007). Since co-founding the Nights of Grief and Mystery project with singer/ songwriter Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured this musical/ tent show revival/ storytelling/ ceremony of a show across North America, U.K., Ireland, Israel, Australia and New Zealand. They released their first Nights of Grief & Mystery album in 2017, and at the end of 2020 released two new records: Dark Roads and Rough Gods. A new album release is planned for 2025. Stephen Jenkinson is also the subject of the feature length documentary film Griefwalker (National Film Board of Canada, 2008, dir. Tim Wilson), a portrait of his work with dying people, and Lost Nation Road, a shorter documentary on the crafting of the Nights of Grief and Mystery tours (2019, dir. Ian Mackenzie). He was a stone sculptor turned wood-carver, and learned the arts of traditional birch bark canoe building. His first house won a Governor General's Award for architecture. He now lives on a small scale organic farm in an off-grid straw bale house. The 120 year old abandoned granary from across the river which appeared in Griefwalker was dismantled last year and re-erected at the Orphan Wisdom farm, where it is again a working barn.   Site https://orphanwisdom.com/   Events https://orphanwisdom.com/events-list/   Feelings with Strangers   Socials https://www.instagram.com/feelings.with.strangers/   YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@FeelingswithStrangers  

1999 was a golden year for movies.That year saw the release of The Matrix, American Beauty, and Fight Club - which remain some of my all time favourites.The latter two are particular compelling as I look through my present-day lens and what they had to say about men & masculinity at the end of the millennium.Both American Beauty & Fight Club depict similar themes of (white) men grappling with middle-class consumerism and a lack of potency, trapped in a meaningless existence.In American Beauty, Lester Burnham opens the film by detailing his boring life - from the teenager who hates him, to his wife who doesn't respect him, and his cubicle dwelling job sucking his soul. The high point of his day is “jerking off in the shower.”Tyler Durden, the rebellious bad boy in Fight Club, tells the Narrator (who lives a similar flat-line as Lester):"Men have become mortgages, marriages, car payments, and fucking cable bills. We are the middle children of history, no purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives.”We could label Lester & the Narrator as living the archetype of The Domestic Man.What's fascinating for me is to observe how each of these men respond to their intolerable condition, and how that relates to the theme of “finding the Wild Man” that Robert Bly speaks about in the fairy tale of Iron John.In one of the teaching sessions I attended with Stephen Jenkinson, he asked us once: what is the most dangerous kind of animal?Some ventured to say “a wild animal.”He made the case that was untrue. For while a wild animal may be hazardous to humans, it is living connected to its nature and the pulse of life. A more dangerous creature that is often unpredictable and malevolent in its behaviour?The name for that is “feral” he told us.This is a creature that has failed to be domesticated.I think of this in the arc of Tyler Durden and The Narrator in Flight Club. What begins as an underground men's group, committed to living raw and alive again, morphs into a revolutionary cell (Project Mayhem) that attacks the data centres of credit card companies, aimed at liberating a new society.It remains somewhat ambiguous whether this actually happens or if it's a fantasy of the Narrator's psychosis.Now, while you may agree that predatory debt needs to be unshackled from humanity (as I do) you may have issues with the tactics. And it's clear the tone of the revolutionary effort becomes poisoned with toxic ideology.You could call this response 'feral'.For Lester Burnham in American Beauty, his inner fire is reawakened by an encounter with his daughter's teenage friend, a nymph-like cheerleader that becomes an inspiration for his salvation. (You might say she has taken on his anima projection - the erotic feminine in him he has suppressed).Suddenly, he finds the courage to quit is job, start lifting weights, smoke pot, and tell off his wife. He's a middle-aged man regressing back to his teen years to remember what it was like to actually enjoy life.Lester is aided by the young Buddha-like neighbour Ricky Fitts, who operates within society from a place of conscious non-attachment, preferring to film every moment of beauty that he comes across - including the infamous plastic bag dancing in the wind.In the scene where Ricky is watching the footage with his girlfriend, he says:"There's so much beauty in the world. Sometimes I feel like I'm seeing it all at once. And it's beautiful. […] It's like God wants me to notice it. To recognize all this beauty. Maybe it's the secret that the whole universe is trying to tell us. Something, we all know deep down but we all kind of forgot. And I don't know if my heart is gonna explode or what. But I'm grateful. I am so grateful.”The moment itself is a portal into wonder, for the characters and for the millions of viewers who saw the film.It certainly was for me, watching the film at 18 years old.Near the end of the film, Lester Burham awakens from the spell he had cast upon his daughter's girlfriend. She was not the Goddess incarnate, just an insecure young girl who was terrified of rejection. His character softens to her and he becomes more like a supportive Father.Lester realizes he has no one else to blame for his life. He had abandoned himself, convinced that it was someone else's job to “save him.”Robert A. Johnson would call this finally slaying his inner Mother Complex.Robert Bly might say, he has freed the Wild Man from the cage.It is now his task to cultivate his own connection to the primal erotic foundation of life.Today, many men find themselves in a similar predicament.Buried under mortgages, parenting, the daily grind of a job, lacking a deeper sense of direction & purpose.These days, it's “easier” then ever to get lost in addictions, distractions, and despair.And yet, there are a growing number of men willing to “seek the golden ball” that they lost long ago, and step up to the Wild Man's cage.With this in mind, my collaborator Deus and I have crafted a 3 month online journey: The Deep Masculine.This immersion brings together over a decade of exploration into mythopoetic maps, somatic skills, ritual rhythm, and the power of brotherhood - for men to awaken their primal birthright.The doors re-open March 14th.Today more than ever, we need men ablaze with courage, fiercely in love with life, and willing to bow in service to beauty.Onwards,Ianp.s. For men able to join us on Vancouver Island, you are invited to our next Awakening the Wild Erotic (April 4-6, 2025). Get full access to The Mythic Masculine at themythicmasculine.substack.com/subscribe

My guest today is my good friend Tad Hargrave.Tad is the founder of Marketing for Hippies with a mission to restore the beauty of the marketplace. He teaches folks who have a desire to do good, but hate marketing, how to articulate their work with elegance and effectiveness.Tad has spent years learning his ancestral language of Scottish Gaelic in Nova Scotia and on the Isle of Skye in Scotland. As well, for over a decade we have both attended the Orphan Wisdom School with Stephen Jenkinson in Ontario, where we have many fond memories in the teaching hall. In recent years, he's turned towards studying ancient history, comparative mythology and Indo-European folklore.In our conversation today, Tad has turned towards the fairy tale Briar Rose (Sleeping Beauty) and what it might have to stay about the indigenous memory of Europe. Chances are, you've seen the Disney version of the story, though I would highly recommend you pause this episode and read the original Grimm's tale before continuing.Read the Grimm's version hereTad and I focus in on a particular moment, when after a 100 years of enchanted sleep, the prince approaches the briar hedge that encircles the castle and the Beauty lying within. We explore themes of seduction versus courtship and degradation of trust between men and women. We speak about the historical role of the Court and the tragedy of extracting too much from Nature's innate abundance.And finally, we explore how folk tales can hold practical wisdom for modern masculinity and how to sustain the mutual life between humans and the holy.The Mythic Masculine is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.DON'T MISS Tad and his collaborator Kakisimow Iskwew have a number of deeper dives into the story of Briar Rose:* Briar Rose - 6 Week Online Program Begins Jan 5th* All details on Briar Rose OfferingsMORE LINKS* Tad's website Marketing for Hippies* Tad's Substack ‘On Culture Making'SHOW NOTES 03:46 Welcoming Tad Hargrave 04:43 The Origin of Marketing for Hippies 05:47 Exploring the Fairy Tale of Briar Rose 06:56 The Symbolism of Briar Rose 11:50 The Dangers of Seduction and Coercion 14:11 The Pickup Artist Experience 25:14 The Concept of Courtship 25:33 The Etymology of Courtship 31:19 The Modern Mimicry of Courtship 39:19 The King's Riddle and Nature's Abundance 40:40 Indigenous Wisdom and Sustainable Harvesting 41:39 The Consequences of Mistrust and Overextraction 43:56 The Art of Courtship in Different Cultures 45:48 The Tale of the Tree of Life 50:22 Mentorship and the Importance of Timing 58:07 The Beauty of Courtship and True Love 01:08:29 The Wisdom in Stories and EldersThe Mythic Masculine is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Mythic Masculine at themythicmasculine.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to the 8th House, Scorpio's lair, associated with Tarot minors 5-7 of Cups and its King. This fixed water sign shares ‘Spooky Season' with Halloween, Samhain, All Soul's, Dia De Los Muertes, and the thinning of the veil. Scorpio teaches that when we walk alongside fear, navigating our own darkest shadows, we discover an uncanny power to transcend the sharp pain of grief and loss, and move towards deeper connection with Spirit.'I'm the cobwebbed stairsthe ancient bonesI'm the shadow rippling cobblestonesI'm the stagnant swampthe black lagoonI'm the branches scratching at the moonI'm the funeral servicethe unknown mournerI'm the demon cowering in the cornerI'm the sexton's spadethe new thrown clayI'm what's left when they walk awayI'm the ebony coffinthe satin liningthe pale, thin lips in the back room dyingI'm the walking deadthe fly by nightI'm the last of the fading lightI'm the unbarred doorthe open encasementI'm the steps leading down to the basementI'm the four post bedthe let down hairI'm the cross that you forgot to wearI'm the highest voltagethe shining slabthe crack of midnight in the doctor's labI'm the night beforethe morning afterthe echoing of the baron's laughterI'm Jonathan HarkerI'm Lucy's trancethe elegant count's hypnotic glanceI'm the wooden malletthe sharpened stakeI'm the precautions you forgot to takeI'm the mummy's cursethe passing bellI'm the fortune they wouldn't tellI'm pyromania, TransylvaniaI'm out of breathI'm worse than deathI'm the late night airexhilaratingI'm with you in the darkness, waiting'Silent Scream, T.S.O.L.*Episode Art: Guardian of the Night Tarot, Supra Oracle, Mary-El TarotAcknowledgments & Mentions: Aliya & Madeline; Faith, Hope & Carnage, Nick Cave; Die Wise: A Manifesto of Sanity & Soul, Stephen Jenkinson; 36 Secrets, T. Susan Chang; Pholarcos Tarot, Carmen Sorrenti; Blood Moon Tarot, Sam Guay; Dust II Onyx: A Melanated Tarot, Courtney Alexander; Wildwood Tarot; Otherkins Tarot, Siolo Thompson; The Crone & Dark Goddess Tarots, Ellen Lorenzi-Prince; The Carnival at the End of The World Tarot; Mary-El Tarot, Mary White; Blank Ink Tarot, Evvin Marin; Ghosts & Spirits Tarot, Lisa Hunt; Medicine Woman Tarot, Carol BridgesDisclaimer: Passages may be truncated or modified.8th House Healers Podcast is Eliza Harris and Sarah Cole-McCarthy. All rights reserved. Find us on Instagram and Eliza's Tarot in her Etsy shop. We'd love to hear from you! Send your questions, comments & suggestions to us at: 8thhousehealers@gmail.com. Podcast cover photography, ‘The Lovers', by Eliza/Esmerlize (esmerlize.com). Original podcast theme music, ‘Languid Stars', by Dylan McCarthy (dylanmccarthymusic.com).Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/8th-house-healers. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Click here to send me a text message ...Out here, on the far side of conventional religion, no path is more compelling than the one that leads us to know our natural place within the larger earth community. And there may be no better modern guide than Bill Plotkin, the author of four books on the subject and the founder of the Animas Valley Institute. The way is called "soul initiation," which is devastating to the ego but life-giving to the soul. And it just might help save the planet.Two TipsThis episode is longer than most, so you might find it helpful to reference the Chapters tab above and listen in convenient chunks.You might also find it helpful to read along with the poem with which we begin our conversation, "What to Remember When Waking," by David Whyte. Here's a link: https://www.awakin.org/v2/read/view.php?tid=994ErrataThe notion I mistakenly attribute to Stephen Jenkinson, that true elders consider today's actions in light of their effect seven generations out, is in fact a Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) principle I had read about in Robin Wall Kimmerer's excellent book, "Braiding Sweetgrass." I regret the error. However, both Jenkinson and Bill Plotkin assume a similar point of view, that elders seek to honour both the ancestors who have gone before and the generations yet to come when considering the actions we take today.Bill's BooksSoulcraft: Crossing into the Mysteries of Nature and Psyche; Soulcraft; New World Library, 2003Nature and the Human Soul: Cultivating Wholeness and Community in a Fragmented World; New World Library, 2008Wild Mind: A Field Guide to the Human Psyche; New World Library, 2013The Journey of Soul Initiation: A Field Guide for Visionaries, Evolutionaries, and Revolutionaries" New World Library, 2021The Animas Valley InstituteHome page: https://www.animas.orgPersonal LinksMy web site (where you can sign up for my blog): https://www.brianepearson.caMy email address: mysticcaveman53@gmail.comSeries Music Credit"Into the Mystic" by Van Morrison, performed by Colin James, from the album, Limelight, 2005; licensed under SOCAN 2022

On this first episode of Season 6, Sarah talks with Csenge Kolozsvari who, along with her four year old daughter, traveled from Montreal to her home village in Hungary to accompany her father on his dying journey. She shares the intimate and personal details of being present to her father's needs during his final weeks. Csenge is an artist and bodyworker. You can reach her here:https://www.thebreathing-room.com/en/homeAnd she mentions this book, Die Wise, by Stephen Jenkinson in our conversation:https://orphanwisdom.com/shop/die-wise/Support the show

In this episode, podcast producer Jackson Kroopf interviews Kimberly Ann Johnson and Stephen Jenkinson about their upcoming live audio series Never Land / Sever Land - Dirt, Place, Ancestry, and The Making of Culture From The New World.  They discuss the impact of their recent trip to Ireland on their ongoing collaboration around culture making in the wake of a global pandemic. They reveal details about Stephen's work-in-progress manuscript and how it relates to orphan wisdom. They consider the implications of the “New World” in contemporary circumstances, the sticky territory of ancestry, and how dirt fits into all of this. A glimpse into a very special offering to come, this conversation gives you a preview into what happens when these two come together to consider the topics and work they've devoted so much of their respective writings and teachings to: how to consider (your) place when history is never far past.   What you'll here wonderings about: What it means for North Americans to visit their ancestral homeland The consequences of being cultural orphans Native culture and its relationship to whiteness What ancestry means to your travel plans The difference between making culture from and making culture for... Peter Behrens' book "The Law of Dream" Stephen's musings on Tobe Hooper and Stephen Spielberg's film Poltergeist Back to the land / farming fantasies Dirt and its layered wisdom Shifts in Stephen's teachings from warnings to descriptors The Unauthorized history of North America What it means to always feel like you're running Why its different to listen to this series live... What wellness has to do with all this... You can learn  more and sign up for their upcoming class "Never Land / Sever Land: Dirt, Place, Ancestry, and The Makings of Culture From the New World" from October 20th-November 17th at: https://kimberlyannjohnson.com/never-land/ photo by Mattias Olsson  

In this episode, we explore why hope, while seemingly positive, might actually be keeping you stuck. Drawing inspiration from the slang "sus" (popularized by the game Among Us), we'll dive into how hope can sometimes feel like a trap—suspicious, even. With teachings from Pema Chödrön and Stephen Jenkinson's Die Wise, we'll uncover how clinging to hope can numb us from reality, especially at life's end. Join me as we unpack the idea that letting go of hope could be the key to finding true peace in the present moment.

Melinda Norris, born and raised in the 70's in Melbourne (Narrn) suburbia, had a far from a typical suburban upbringing. Both her parents, who were immigrants to Australia, kept their family traditions, such as homesteading and growing their food;  we now know these practices as permaculture. One very important tradition that held strong to in the family was caring at home for the young, and the old, and the dying.   Having lived with the dying and attended as many funerals as christenings and weddings, Melinda has been attuned to this part of life for as long as she can remember.   And having had a number of near death experiences herself, Melinda has a familiarity and reverence for the terrain and the journey that we all must take someday. With a curious nature, she was destined for adventure and has lived a full life, exploring, creating, and travelling. Professionally, Melinda is best known as a Festival and Event Producer, Arts Worker, and, more recently, a Tiny House Builder. Today, she's here to discuss a deeply personal topic that resonates with many—our relationship with death and dying. She is a death Doula, a term that means helper, who facilitates, guides, and emotionally supports families. Melinda is a bridge to allay fears, communicate expectations, and gently guide individuals towards grace and peace during the dying journey. Through stories and wisdom from her ongoing reverence for this profound subject, Melinda offers a unique perspective on a conversation increasingly present in the global collective. SHOW NOTES: For care and support regarding end of (this) life care, feel free to call Melinda Norris 0400 798 425 Resources / practical - GOVERNMENT QLD Public trustee: https://www.pt.qld.gov.au/  The office Public Advocacy:  https://www.justice.qld.gov.au/public-advocate Government Age Care Commission:  https://www.agedcarequality.gov.au/  Aged Care Guides: https://www.agedcareguide.com.au/information/what-about-complaints  Resources / practical  - NON GOVERNMENT https://www.gentle-conversations.com/ https://www.gatheredhere.com.au/ https://tenderfunerals.com.au/  https://held.org.au/  https://www.willed.com.au/guides/living-wills-what-are-they-and-why-are-they-important/  Local meet up: Gentle ConversationsCommunity Conversations  about living and dying at Limberlost Nursery Stratford 1.30 pm on the 3rd Thursday of every month Leanne B: 0428 160 863  Leanne: 0407 277 385 Books & Films: Die Wise, Stephen Jenkinson https://orphanwisdom.com/ Sacred Death Care, Dr Sarah Kerr  https://sacreddeathcare.com/  On ScreenSBS:  The Last Goodbye - 3-part series with Ray Martin https://iview.abc.net.au/show/australian-story/series/2022/video/NC2202Q016S00  ABC Australian Story: A Community Undertaking: https://iview.abc.net.au/show/australian-story/series/2022/video/NC2202Q016S00  **THE ELDER TREE TROVE PATREON COMMUNITY** You can join our Patreon ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and gain a deeper connection to our podcast. Pay only $2 per week to have access to bonus and often exclusive resources and opportunities- plus support the Elder tree at the same time!  To find out more about The Elder Tree visit the website at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theeldertree.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and donate to the crowdfunding campaign ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. You can also follow The Elder Tree on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠sign up to the newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Find out more about this podcast and the presenters ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Get in touch with The Elder Tree at:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠asktheeldertree@gmail.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The intro and outro song is "⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sing for the Earth⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠" and was kindly donated by Chad Wilkins.  You can find Chad's music ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

How do we show up for ourselves when the river of grief threatens to sweep us away? Do you allow space in your life to touch the tender places that pain us? To truly grief for those we have lost? To make peace with death? This is a mini episode on Grief and Grace, as Stephanie Hazel steps in to support Tonielle Christensen, our regular Permaculture Segment host, during her own time of grief. Stephanie explores different cultural practices for working with grief when a loved one dies, and discusses three powerful herbs to support us in times of grief. Stephanie recommends the book 'Die Wise' by Stephen Jenkinson. It's also available as an audio book narrated by the author, which is pretty lovely. *THE ELDER TREE TROVE PATREON COMMUNITY** You can join our Patreon ⁠here⁠ and gain a deeper connection to our podcast. Pay only $2 per week to have access to bonus and often exclusive resources and opportunities- plus support the Elder tree at the same time! To find out more about The Elder Tree visit the website at www.theeldertree.org and donate to the crowdfunding campaign here. You can also follow The Elder Tree on Facebook and Instagram and sign up to the newsletter. Find out more about this podcast and the presenters here. Get in touch with The Elder Tree at: asktheeldertree@gmail.com The intro and outro song is "Sing for the Earth" and was kindly donated by Chad Wilkins.

In this special edition of “First Voices Radio,” Host Olivia Clementine interviews Tiokasin Ghosthorse for “Love & Liberation with Olivia Clementine,” a podcast about relationship and consciousness: exploring wisdom in relating with ourselves, each other and our greater world. For nearly 20 years, Olivia has been immersed in the exploration of relationships and spiritual nature. She works with individuals, couples and groups to cultivate relational capacities and self-understanding. She also has a background as a four-season farmer and herbalist. The Love & Liberation Podcast airs in depth conversations in the fields of spirituality, ecology and relationships. Recent guests have been Bayo Akomolafe, Stephen Jenkinson, Helen Norberg-Hodge, Khandro Choying and Lama Tsultrim Allione. Listen here: https://oliviaclementine.com/podcasts/Production Credits: Tiokasin Ghosthorse (Lakota), Host and Executive Producer Liz Hill (Red Lake Ojibwe), Producer Karen Martinez (Mayan), Studio Engineer, Radio Kingston Tiokasin Ghosthorse, Audio Editor Kevin Richardson, Podcast Editor Music Selections: 1. Song Title: Tahi Roots Mix (First Voices Radio Theme Song) Artist: Moana and the Moa Hunters Album: Tahi (1993) Label: Southside Records (Australia and New Zealand) 2. Song Title: Ball and Chain Artist: Xavier Rudd Album: Jan Juc Moon (2022) Label: Virgin Music Label and Adult Services Australia (P&D) 3. American Dream Artist: J.S. Ondara Album: Tales of America (The Second Coming) (2019) Label: Verve Forecast / Universal Music Canada 4. Spoken Word: There's Nothing Wrong With Us Artist: John Trudell Album: DNA: Descendant Now Ancestor (2001) Label: Effective RecordsAKANTU INTELLIGENCE Visit Akantu Intelligence, an institute that Tiokasin founded with a mission of contextualizing original wisdom for troubled times. Go to https://akantuintelligence.org to find out more and consider joining his Patreon page at https://www.patreon.com/Ghosthorse

Bree Rose is an "End of Life Doula & Transition Guide" who utilizes ritual, sound healing, education, and advocacy to assist the leaving and bereaving through the mysteries of the inevitable. She is a modern PSYCHOPOMP of sorts, and part of Seattle's Stone Circles Collective, whose mission is to support individuals in maintaining their sovereignty in death. We discuss her unique pathworkings, the confluence of art & magick, and the pragmatic side of banishing the taboo of death itself. WATCH THE LIMINALSTREAM: https://www.youtube.com/live/XT-jKd8nXZ4?si=LNVU73bgTmhzFgkR  BREE ROSE LINKS: Stone Circles Collective: https://www.stonecirclescollective.org Instagram:   https://instagram.com/stonecirclescollective Patreon:   https://patreon.com/stonecirclestransitions OTHER (Musick): https://other-band-seattle.bandcamp.com/album/sacred-and-profane REFERENCES: Stephen Jenkinson: (BOOK) “Die Wise – A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul“: https://orphanwisdom.com/die-wise/  (DOC) “Griefwalker“, a feature length documentary, sets its lens on theologian Stephen Jenkinson in an unforgettable exploration of death phobia as a culture.” https://www.amazon.com/Griefwalker-Stephen-Jenkinson/dp/B007VQGZOQ  “Unfuck Your Grief: Using Science to Heal Yourself and Support Others” by Dr. Faith G. Harper : https://microcosmpublishing.com/catalog/books/7095  “Death Nesting: Ancient & Modern Death Doula Techniques, Mindfulness Practices and Herbal Care” by Anne-Marie Keppel: https://a.co/d/0indbUT2  Musick this episode courtesy of REVEL ∴ ROSZ: MANY NAMED (The Second Body) ∴ songsigil01 by REVEL∴ROSZ WATCH THE NEW VIDEOMANCY CONJURED FOR THE FIRST REVEL ROSZ SONGSIGIL, ‘MANY NAMED' (The Second Body): https://youtu.be/Y0PJ4cnBu5w?si=hpGCnYJoKGanTGwi Follow REVEL ROSZ for updates on forthcoming songsigils and live dates: BANDCAMP: https://revelrosz.bandcamp.com/ INSTAGRAM: https://instagram.com/revelrosz To support a new era of WE THE HALLOWED and the many media magicks we've conjured, we launched http://HALLOWEDPRESS.ART as a means to collect our many completed projects from Published Literature, Illustration, Albums, Audio Sigils and now, custom apparel and wares designed by WtH Seer Eric J. Millar and Revel∴ Keats Rosz! FIND EVERYTHING PRAG∴MAGICK: http://pragmagick.com SUPPORT VIA PATREON: https://patreon.com/pragmagick http://patreon.com/pragmagickPAYPAL: http://www.paypal.me/keatsross WE THE HALLOWED: https://wethehallowed.org I want to give a big thanks to Eric J. Millar for his invaluable partnership in weathering the proud tides of human error. And of course, all the amazing patrons that have stayed with me as I swayed these past couple of months. Thank you Temple of Babalon Choronzon (Bobby, Leah, Stashia & Groucho), Frater Perseus, MetemPsychotic, Saroth The Mage, Sam Shadow, Lya & Azure Edwards, Kendall Esse, JJ Reine De Blanc, Jenny Rocky, SorcerersHomie, Cal Desmond Pearson, Alex Leadbetter, Bibi, CW Chanter, Jonicide, Jilly Beans, Corrie Anne, Spooky, Derek Hunter Vanessa Sinclair, Carl Abrahamsson, Tony Davis, Arnemancy and you, dear ghost, for your ongoing support! You, too, can pledge your support to PRAGMAGICK & WE THE HALLOWED for as little as 1 dollar to help finance all the many artistick mediums we release our works through! http://patreon.com/pragmagick GENERATIVE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE DID NOT CREATE, AUGMENT or INSPIRE ANY ARTISTIC MEDIUM EXPRESSED WITHIN THIS PODCAST or WE THE HALLOWED ARTWORKS WRIT LARGE. CELEBRATE HUMAN ERROR.

“The first half of my career was spent putting people to sleep, and after my midlife crisis, I realized I had to start waking people up, including myself.”My guest today is Dr. Stephen Faulkner, a former medical doctor, pilot, and one of my key mentors on the path of mythopoetic masculinity.In this episode, Stephen reflects on his nearly 70 years of life and shares his profound emotional and spiritual contentment despite facing chronic health issues. He emphasizes the critical importance of engaging in inner spiritual work to avoid the bitterness and regret that often accompany aging.The Mythic Masculine is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Stephen recounts his spiritual awakening at age 35, guided by the mythic maps found in "Iron John," and highlights the healing significance of connecting with nature and ritual. We speak on the transformative power of men's circles and the profound influence of Robert Bly on his journey, who also kindled a love of the great poet and artist William Blake.He shares the tale of Gilgamesh & Endiku which was part of how we first met.And finally, Stephen speaks of his recent near-death experience that brought him an unexpected sense of peace. He concludes with a heartfelt call for older men to mentor and support younger men, ensuring the continuity of wisdom and tending the fire across generations.LINKS* The enduring presence and power of William Blake (featuring Stephen Faulkner)UPCOMING OFFERINGSNext month, Deus and I are holding our next AWE (Awakening the Wild Erotic) Men's Weekend July 26-28 in Black Creek, about 3 hours north of Victoria on Vancouver Island. It's a ritual immersion in the archetype of the Lover, and if this calls to you, come join us. We're 60% full already.In September we're also launching our next cohort of The Deep Masculine, a 12-week online expedition into the alluring, seductive force that animates all of life - Eros and beyond. It's the most comprehensive container I've co-crafted to condenses almost a decade worth of men's work, myth, and somatics into a powerful journey. Book a Discovery Call now and see if it's right for you.And finally, for all genders, you're invited to take my online course Iron John: A Mythic Story About Men, which is a fantastic introduction to the book & a great way to integrate the chapters alongside my special guests like Stephen Jenkinson, Michael Gay, Sophie Strand and more.What do you think of this episode? I'd love to hear your comments below. Get full access to The Mythic Masculine at themythicmasculine.substack.com/subscribe

As a prequel to my upcoming tour of British Columbia I speak with Tad Hargrave, best known for his Marketing for Hippies movement, but also eloquent in culture making and something of a storyteller, improv actor and street magician. You want this guy at your party!In our conversation we touch upon his own path to discover of the richness of his Celtic heritage, learning from cultural heavyweights such as Stephen Jenkinson,  discuss indigenous knowledge, heritage crafts, and trans Atlantic idea sharing. We reference at least one road trip and a selection of Scottish storytelling elders, and finish with a story about the gold in one's own home.There's also a traveller anecdote in there that makes me laugh out loud!We discuss my upcoming storytelling tour of British Columbia and Washington state and why he felt to instigate the trip.Find out about the BC tour here:storyconnection.org/bctour/Read about Tad's culture making here:https://substack.com/profile/39800440-tad-hargraveSort your business out whilst maintaining your hippie credentials here:https://marketingforhippies.com/My live dates and online events:https://linktr.ee/dougiemackayMy newsletter (where all the good stuff goes first):https://sendfox.com/dougiemackaystoryThanks for listening!

Talking points: purpose, initiation, adversity, grief, culture It isn't always easy to find a sense of purpose or meaning in life, never mind feeling initiated into maturity. In these chaotic times, it gets even harder. This is a special compilation episode featuring four masters of finding humanity, clarity, and meaning in life. Their combined efforts have helped legions of people get a better handle on life and all of its twists and turns. Two of them are people I revere as elders, and three work with men and purpose on a regular basis. Featuring ideas from... -Lion tracker, coach, and storyteller Boyd Varty: https://boydvarty.com/ -Depth psychologist Francis Weller: https://www.francisweller.net/ -Culture activist Stephen Jenkinson (unreleased material!): https://orphanwisdom.com/ -Writer, teacher, and coach Rainier Wylde: https://www.rainierwylde.com/ -Purpose guide Tim Corcoran: https://www.purposemountain.com/ (00:00:00) - Boyd Varty on the role initiation plays in a man's life—and what happens without it (00:16:20) - Francis Weller on why we need to (but can't seem to) handle the unknown, failure, and grief (00:25:45) - Why the soul needs failure to find meaning, and how Francis runs grief workshops (00:30:35) - Given our current times, what does it mean to be a “generative ancestor”? (00:33:05) - Stephen Jenkinson on what defines and gives meaning to your humanity (00:39:47) - Rainier Wylde on how to find a sense of purpose in chaotic times (00:55:27) - Tim Corcoran on how to practically define purpose, and what's often in the way (01:05:29) - Where does the “soul” fit into all of this? *** Henson Shaving brought this episode to you! No more nicks, no more cuts—and no more subscriptions! Go to https://hensonshaving.com and enter MANTALKS at checkout to get 100 free blades with your purchase. (Note: you must add both the 100-blade pack and the razor for the discount to apply.) Build brotherhood in person. Join a Men's Weekend Pick up my book, Men's Work: A Practical Guide To Face Your Darkness, End Self-Sabotage, And Find Freedom: https://mantalks.com/mens-work-book/ Check out some free resources: How To Quit Porn | Anger Meditation | How To Lead In Your Relationship Build brotherhood with a powerful group of like-minded men from around the world. Check out The Alliance.  Enjoy the podcast? If so, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or Podchaser. It helps us get into the ears of new listeners, expand the ManTalks Community, and help others find the tools and training they're looking for. And don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Spotify For more episodes, visit us at ManTalks.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

On this episode, my guest is , a friend and scholar who recently completed his PhD in Cultural Geography from The University of Edinburgh where his research centered on themes of displacement and memorial walking practices in the Highlands of Scotland. A child of Greek political refugees on both sides of his family, Christos' work looks at ways in which ceremony and ritual might afford us the capacity to integrate disconnection from place and ancestry. Further, his research into pre-modern Gaelic Highland culture reveals animistic relationship with mountains which disrupt easy definitions of colonialism and indigeneity.Show Notes:Summoning and Summiting a DoctorateThe British Empire & EverestThe Three Roots of FreedomHillwalkers and HomecomingThe Consequences of Staying and LeavingThe Romans Make a Desert and Call it PeaceFarming EmptinessLandscapes as MediumsRitualized Acts of WalkingHomework:Christos Galanis' Official WebsiteTranscript:Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome, Christos, to the End of Tourism podcast. Christos: Thank you, Chris. Chris: Thank you for joining me today. Would you be willing to let us know where you're dialing in from today? Christos: Yeah, I'm calling in from home, which at the moment is Santa Fe, New Mexico in the United States. Yeah, I moved out here for my master's in 2010 and fell in love with it, and and then returned two years ago.So it's actually a place that does remind me of the Mediterranean and Greece, even though there's no water, but the kind of mountain desert. So there's a familiarity somehow in my body. Chris: Sounds beautiful. Well I'm delighted to speak with you today about your PhD dissertation entitled "A Mountain Threnody: Hill Walking and Homecoming in the Scottish Highlands." And I know you're working on the finishing touches of the dissertation, but I'd like to pronounce a dear congratulations on that huge feat. I imagine after a decade of research and [00:01:00] writing, that you can finally share this gift, at least for now, in this manner, in terms of our conversation together.Christos: Thank you. It was probably the hardest thing I've done in my life in terms of a project. Yeah. Nine years.Chris: And so, you and I met at Stephen Jenkinson's Orphan Wisdom School many years ago. But beyond that from what I understand that you were born and raised in Toronto and Scarborough to Greek immigrants, traveled often to see family in Greece and also traveled widely yourself, and of course now living in New Mexico for some time. I'm curious why focus on Scotland for your thesis? Christos: It was the last place I thought I would be going to. Didn't have a connection there. So I did my master's down here in Albuquerque at UNM and was actually doing a lot of work on the border with Mexico and kind of Southwest Spanish history.I actually thought I was going to go to UC San Diego, partly because of the weather and had some connections [00:02:00] there. And two things happened. One was that you have to write your GRE, whatever the standardized test is you need to do for grad school here in the US, you don't have to do in the UK. So that appealed to me.And it's also, there's no coursework in the UK. So you just, from day one, you're just doing your own research project. And then I wanted to actually work with what Was and probably still is my favorite academic writer is Tim Ingold, who was based in Aberdeen up in the north of Scotland and is kind of that thing where I was like, "well if I'm gonna do a PhD What if I just literally worked with like the most amazing academic I can imagine working with" and so I contacted him. He was open to meeting and possibly working together and so I was gonna fly to Scotland.I was actually spending the winter in Thailand at the time, so I was like, if I'm gonna go all the way to Scotland, maybe I should check out a couple more universities. So, I looked at St. Andrews, which is a little bit north of Edinburgh, and then Edinburgh, then visited all [00:03:00] three schools, and actually just really fell in love with Edinburgh, and then in the end got full funding from them. And that took me to Scotland. And I didn't know what was in store for me. I didn't even follow through on my original research project, which had nothing to do with Scotland. The sites that I was actually proposed to work with was on the Dine reservation out here in Arizona. There's a tradition, long tradition of sheep herding and there's a lot of, some friends of mine have a volunteer program where volunteers go and help the Diné elders and herd their sheep for them and what's happening is they're trying to hold on to their land and Peabody Coal, a coal mining company, has been trying to take the land forever and so by keeping on herding sheep, it allows them to stay there.So I was actually kind of looking at walking as forms of resistance and at that time, most undocumented migrants trying to enter Europe were walking from Turkey through Macedonia. So I was actually going to go there. And yeah, once I kind of hit the ground, I realized that that's way too ambitious.And I [00:04:00] decided to focus on this really strange phenomenon called Monroe Bagging in the Highlands of Scotland, where people work all week in their office, Monday to Friday, and then spend their weekends checking off a task list of 282 mountains that they summit. There's 282 of them and they're categorized that way because they're all over 3, 000 feet, which for us in North America, isn't that high, but for the Scottish Highlands, because they're very ancient, ancient, worn down mountains is pretty high.And also the weather and the climate and the terrain make it pretty treacherous out there. So it's, it's not an easy thing. Yeah. And I just thought this is a really weird, strange way to relate to mountains and to land. And it seems like a very British thing to do. And I kind of just got curious to figure out what was going on and why people would actually do this.And it came from a very, actually, critical perspective, to begin with. As things unfolded, that changed a fair amount in terms of getting to know people. But, yeah, that was Scotland. And, I think looking back, I think [00:05:00] I was called there by the mountains. I can give the bigger context maybe later on, but essentially one of the main mountain called Ben Cruachan, in Argyle that I ended up most working with and kind of going in and doing ceremony for, and with. I ended up later meeting my what would become my wife and married into her family and on one side of her family, they are literally the Macintyres who are from that mountain. So yeah ended up kind of going there and marrying into a lineage of a mountain that was the center of my my dissertation.So in the end I think I was called there. I think I was called to apprentice those mountains. And then I feel like my time ended. And I think this dissertation is kind of the story of that relationship with that courtship.Chris: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for that beautifully winding answer and introduction. So, you know, a lot of your dissertation speaks to kind of different notions of mountain climbing, summiting, hiking but you also write about [00:06:00] how our cultural or collective understandings of mountains have defined our ability to undertake these activities.And I'm curious, based on your research and personal experience, how do you think mountains are understood within the dominant paradigm of people who undertake these practices. Christos: Yeah, good question. I would say, I know I don't like to speak in universals, but I could say that one universal is that, as far as I can tell, all cultures around the world tend to not only revere mountains, but tend to relate to mountain peaks as sacred.And so in most cultures, at least pre modern culture, you will always find a taboo around ever actually climbing to the top of a mountain, especially a significant mountain. So ways that you might worship a sacred mountain, for example, you know, in Tibet is to circumnavigate. So hiking, walking around a mountain three times or walking the perimeter of a mountain, kind of circling [00:07:00] around and around the summit.But it would be absolutely abhorrent to actually ever climb to the top. So one thing I was interested in is what happened, what shifted, where in the past people would never think of climbing a mountain summit to that becoming almost the only thing that people were focused on. And I didn't know this, but out of all countries, the country that most intensely kind of pursued that practice was, was England, was Britain, actually.So it's really fascinating. There's this period, the Victorian era, where basically Britain is invading other countries such as Nepal, India, into China, into Kenya, parts of Africa, South America certainly here in North America and the Americas and of course mountain ranges serve as pretty natural and intense frontiers and barriers, especially back then before. You know, industrial machinery and airplanes and things [00:08:00] like that, you're going over land. And so to be able to get through a mountain range was a pretty intense thing. Really only became possible with kind of Victorian era technology and because they were able to penetrate these places that people really couldn't have before it was a way of kind of proving modern supremacy or the supremacy of kind of modern secularism.Because even in places like Sutherland and the Alps, the indigenous Swiss also considered like the Alps sacred, the mountain peaks and wouldn't climb them. And so as the British kind of came up into these mountain ranges. They had the idea of proving that essentially there were no gods on these mountaintops.There was nothing sacred about them. It's just a pile of rock and anybody can climb up and nothing's going to happen to them. And so they really started setting out to start summiting these mountains. And it was mostly military engineers. There's a big overlap between kind of military engineering and surveying and [00:09:00] map making and this kind of outdoor kind of Victorian kind of proving your manhood against nature kind of thing.And so it's a strangely poetic and very grief soaked proposition where increasingly humans had the technology to penetrate anywhere on the planet, you know, more and more. And maybe I'll just go into the story of Everest because it was perceived that the, the earth had three poles.So the North pole, the South pole, and Everest is the highest peak on the whole planet. So there was this race to set foot on the North Pole on the South Pole and on Everest. I don't know much about the North and South Pole expeditions I think they were first but Everest was kind of like yeah I think Everest was the last literally the last place on earth that humans weren't able yet to physically step foot on. And so the British set out to be the ones to do it after World War one. And there's another overlap where most of the men that were obsessed with mountain summiting after World War I had [00:10:00] been through the horrors of World War I and had a lot of PTSD and shell shock and kind of couldn't reintegrate back to civilian life.They kind of needed that rush of risking your life for some kind of larger goal, which warfare can provide. And, slowly they kind of got better technology and eventually by, I think it was maybe 1952, 1953, they finally conquered Everest. And it's almost like the moment that they penetrated this last place of wilderness that was holding out the British Empire started collapsing, which the timing is quite fascinating. You know, they lost India and Pakistan. And as soon as you kind of are able to dominate everything, there comes this nostalgia immediately for wild places. And this is where Scotland comes back in. Where, Scotland, the Highlands have been inhabited for tens of thousands of years.There's nothing wild about them. There were villages everywhere. But what happened through the [00:11:00] 16, 1700s was the Gaelic population, the indigenous population were ethnically cleansed. And then kind of the lands that follow for maybe 100 years. And then when the English started coming in, they were like, "Oh, this is wilderness.These mountains have never been climbed before. We're going to be the ones to conquer them because we're the superior race." And they did so, and when I chose the the title of my thesis used this little known word, Threnody, which is actually from Greek, Threnodia, which translates something as like a song of grief or a song of lament.And I think for me, this incessant kind of like summiting of mountains and risking and sometimes losing your life to penetrate these places where you actually don't retain control, or it's very hard to retain control, right, because of like storms in the weather, that it's almost like a kind of mourning for the loss of the very things that this technology has kind of erased or has compromised.So it's almost, I can't even put into words the feeling around it, but it's almost like, [00:12:00] You're doing the thing that's destroying something, but you have the impulse to keep doing it as a way of connecting to the thing that's being lost, if that makes sense. And I can imagine, you know, maybe all the work that you've done around tourism might have a similar quality to it.There's, I don't know, there's like a melancholy that I experience interviewing and going out with these people that I don't think they would ever be conscious of or even name, but there's a longing for something that's missing. And so that's where also this kind of song of lament theme comes into my, into my dissertation.Chris: Yeah, it's definitely something that shows up over and over again in these conversations and thank you for putting it into such eloquent words is that. I think it really succinctly speaks to the, the condition or conditions at hand. And I guess I'm curious you know, in regards to what you just said about notions of freedom [00:13:00] that are often experienced in touristic experiences or contexts and some of your dissertation centers around the freedom that your friends and hill walking acquaintances experienced there in the Highlands and freedom can often seem like a kind of recurrent trope sometimes in describing the tourist's reasons for travel.And surely outside of a trope for many people's reasons for travel you know, especially in the context of migration. Beyond the surface, we can wonder about the inheritance of ancestrally or ancestral indentured servitude, the commons and the lack thereof in our time and also like a kind of communion or relationship with what you refer to as other than human worlds. And I'm curious what kind of contradictions or insights came up for you in regards to the supposed freedom that was either found or sought after by the Hillwalkers you encountered.[00:14:00] Christos: Thank you. Yeah, I think before I started going deep into this, I probably, I probably shared most people's notion of freedom, which most of us don't ever really sit and wonder that deeply about.But there's a section of my dissertation where I go deep into freedom and I actually look at three different cultural and kind of etymological or linguistic lenses through which to understand freedom. And there's two that the people I interviewed, I think, were most practicing. So the word freedom itself comes from the Germanic, and it's two words.It's broke frei, which is "free," "to be free." And dom, translates kind of as "a judgment." So if you know like doomsday or the doomsday book. What the doomsday and judgment day actually mean the same thing It's just doom is like the older Germanic word for judgment. Okay, and so freedom can kind of translate as like freedom from judgment freedom from constraint and it has this quality of like spatially removing [00:15:00] yourself or getting distance from something that might constrain you, so you mentioned indentured servitude and slavery, which are as old as human civilization across the world.And all these different things that, basically, we are more or less constrained by, whether it's, family, the state, our living conditions, poverty, excess wealth, you know, all these things that might, or the expression of our true life force. And so for a lot of the people that I was working with, that was certainly what they would describe, you know, like I work in an office as a manager Monday through Friday in Edinburgh, and then it's only on the weekends that I get out into the hills and I truly feel alive and free, right? Because I'm in this vast expanse and, I mean, It's not my climate. I'm Greek by both sides. Wet, soggy moss and mold and endless rain and drizzle and cold and dark is not my thing, but it is visually stunningly beautiful. And you know, [00:16:00] and I'm sure we all know the experience of getting up to a peak of something and that sense of kind of almost being removed from the everyday and that sense of like maybe connecting to something higher or bigger.So that sense of freedom is obvious. The other, another lens is through Latin liberty or libertas, which comes from ancient Roman society, which was a heavily hierarchied society where up to 60 percent of people were actually slaves. So, there's a big distinction between those who are free and those who are slaves.And so the idea of liberty, and this also came up with my informants is the idea that you have to compare yourself to another and the more freedom you have compared to someone else, the better it feels. And I think of that as all the mechanics of like air airports and you know, first class lines and first class seating.I had the experience once flying because flying from New York through back to [00:17:00] London to get back to Edinburgh. And for the first and only time in my life I was bumped up to first class for some reason, I don't know why. But it was on, I don't know, one of the newer kind of jumbo jets, and the difference between economy class and first class in many ways is pretty profound.At the same time, it's ridiculous because you're all sitting in the same tube. But I remember the feeling that happened once we took off and they drew the curtain between the first class and everyone in the back. And it was this experience where everyone back there just disappeared.It's just kind of like, you can't see them, they're out of sight, out of mind, and you're just up front. You can lay down completely horizontally in these chairs, you have real glass, glassware and real cutlery, you know, and people treat you super, super nice. But like, in order to enjoy that, you need other people to not be enjoying that, right?So the idea of liberty kind of requires another, or it's almost a zero sum game where someone else has to be losing for you to be winning. And you know, I think of that with tourism, the idea that those of us from the North, you know, are stuck [00:18:00] at home in the winter while those with money, you know, can fly off to Mexico or Costa Rica and stuff like that.So that difference that like your experience is enhanced by other people's discomfort or suffering. And then I came across another lens, which comes from the Greek. So the Greek word for freedom is Eleftheria. And I didn't know the etymology, but one of my office mates in Edinburgh was from Greece, and we sat down with like a Greek etymological dictionary and I discovered that the Greek notion of freedom is completely different.It's almost counterintuitive, and it translates as something close to " loving the thing you were meant to love" or like "being the thing you were meant to be." And even more distinctly, the rios part in Eleftheria would translate into something like "returning to your home harbor after like a long voyage," and it's that, it's literally the experience of coming home, [00:19:00] which in a way is the freedom of not wanting to be anywhere else or to be anyone else, which is in some ways, I think to me, the most true freedom, because you don't want for anything, you actually love everything you are and everywhere you are, and you don't want to go anywhere else.So in that way, I think for me, cultivating a connection to place as an animist, you know, and I think that's a lot of what you and I I imagine experienced, you know, listening to Steven Jenkinson's many stories that keep circling around this idea of, you know, belonging is cultivating that place in you or that muscle in you that doesn't want to be anywhere else, doesn't want to be anybody else, but is actually satisfied and fulfilled by what is, which it's probably at the heart of most spiritual traditions at the end of the day, but to think of that as freedom, I think for me, really, really changed my perspective from, the idea of going around the world as I have and certainly in the past to experience all these different things and to [00:20:00] feel free and to be a nomad versus I would say the freedom I have here of loving Santa Fe and not imagining myself being anywhere else right now.Chris: Well, the theme of homecoming is definitely woven into this work, this dissertation, alongside hill walking.They seem, generally speaking, superficially very disparate or distinct activities, homecoming and hill walking. One is going and then it's coming. And I'm curious if you could elaborate for our listeners a little bit of what those terms mean, and where or how they come together in your work.Christos: Yeah. So the title of my dissertation, you know, is a "A Mountain Threnody: Hillwalkers and Homecomers in the Highlands of Scotland."So I set out to study hill walkers, which is basically a British term for going out for a walk or a hike where the focus is summiting some kind of peak, you know, whether a hill or a mountain, but that's what most people do there. When you set out on a walk, it's just assumed that you're going to end up going to the top of something and then [00:21:00] back down.What ended up happening is actually through Stephen Jenkinson's Orphan Wisdom School, I met several other Canadians of Scottish descent who had already or were planning on going quote "back" to Scotland to connect with their ancestral lands and their ancestors which is a lot of the work with Stephen's school and that, you know, that idea of connecting with your ancestry and with your roots and with your bones.And I kind of just started following along and interviewing people and talking with people that became friends just out of curiosity, because, you know, that's a lot of my background with being first generation Canadian and growing up in a huge Greek diaspora in Toronto and speaking Greek and going back to Greece multiple times and this idea of kind of being Canadian, but really home is in Europe and Greece, even though I've never lived there.So, there's a lot there, personal interest and eventually against my supervisor's advice, I was like, this might be an interesting [00:22:00] conversation to put these two groups together, these people who are spending their weekends summiting mountains in the Highlands and then these other people coming from Canada and the US and New Zealand and Australia who are going to the same mountains to connect with their ancestral, you know, lands and and people. And these two groups are probably the two biggest sources of tourism, like, in the Highlands, which is fascinating. Wow. Except that the one group, the Hillwalkers tend to imagine that they're in a pristine wilderness and that there's never been anybody there. And the homecomers like to imagine that the hills used to be covered in villages and their own people that were there for thousands of years and that they're reconnecting.So it's interesting how the same landscape is both imagined as being repopulated and also emptied. And that both groups are kind of searching again for this kind of belonging, right? This belonging through freedom, for this belonging through ancestry. The other piece that gets, [00:23:00] well, you know, we're interviewing this, we're doing this interview November 21st and we're, I think most people these days are pretty aware of what's going on in Israel and Palestine and this idea of home because to have a homecoming means there has to be somewhere out there that you consider your home.And that's such a loaded, loaded, loaded concept, right? Like many wars are fought over this idea of who a land belongs to, right? I mean, I know you and I have talked about both our families being from the borderlands with Greece, Macedonia, Albania, and those borders just change over and over and where you belong to what is home keeps changing depending on which war has happened, which outcome and things like that.And I think for those of us, I'll say in the Americas, who don't have deep roots here this idea of home being somewhere else other than where you live, is a very complex prospect because certainly when I go to Greece, people don't recognize me as being home, you know, they, they consider me a Canadian tourist. And at the same time growing up in Canada, I certainly never felt [00:24:00] like, "Oh, Canada is like my ancestral home. You know, it's, it's skin deep. My parents came over in the sixties. Right." So this idea of homecoming and, you know, maybe we can just riff on this for a bit. Cause I know you've explored this a lot. It's like, is it tourism or is it something else? Because a lot of people in Scotland, including people I interviewed, just laugh at these Canadians who come over and just start crying, standing over some rocks in the Highlands and who will buy some shitty whiskey at a tourist shop and feel that they're connecting with their roots and buy bagpipes and by kilts and all this stuff, whereas like most Scottish people don't wear kilts and don't blow bagpipes and don't necessarily drink whiskey all day, so there's these kind of stereotypes that have often been just kind of produced by the media, but it's almost like, other than that, how do people actually connect with the homeland, right?Like, what does it even mean to connect with a homeland? And one thing that I found that I think is one of the most powerful things is the idea of walking. So [00:25:00] this is why the comparison and the contrast with hill walking and homecoming is most people, when you go back to your homeland, there's something really central about walking in the footsteps of your ancestors, right?So walking around in the same village, walking the same streets, going to the same house, maybe even if it's not there anymore, going to... I remember going to my mom's elementary school in the little village that she grew up in the mountains of Greece and walking down the same hallways with her, and we went to the auditorium, and she, showed me the little stage where she would literally be putting on little plays when they were, like, in third grade and there's something about standing and stepping in the same place that is so fundamental. And so I'm kind of looking at homecoming through these kind of memorial or commemorative practices of walking. So it's not just walking, but walking and activating a landscape or activating the memories that are kind of enfolded in a landscape. And I've come to believe and understand that walking is a kind of almost magic technology that I [00:26:00] almost see it as really like opening up portals to other times and other places when done in a ceremonial kind of ritualized manner.So a lot of my work again, as an animist and kind of being as far as I know, the first in my field was just cultural geography, to kind of bring an animist lens to the field and kind of look at how, doing ceremony on a mountain, going into these glands and doing ceremony is more than just the material kind of walking, but is actually kind of connecting with these memories and these people in these places.In a way that's, I think, deeper than tourism and that's maybe the distinction between tourism and let's say homecoming on the surface that you might actually be doing almost the same thing, but I think there is this kind of animist lens to understand homecoming through where you let's say you bring a stone from home or you take a stone and bring it back home you know, like these kinds of Ritualize little practices that we do to connect with the place that I don't think tourists do in the same way, [00:27:00] you know?Because in tourism, you're often just trying to get away from where you live and experience something different, where this is trying to reconnect with something that's been lost or something that's in the past. Chris: Yeah, definitely. This leads me into a lot of different directions, but one of them is this question of animism that I'd like to come back to in just a moment but before we do, I want to ask you about. These heritage trips sometimes they're referred to as within the tourism industry, homeland returns which in most cases is a paradox or an oxymoron because most people are not returning to the places that they either were born in or lived in.They, typically, like myself, had never actually been there before. I'll just pull a little quote from your dissertation because I think it precedes this question in a good way. You write that quote, "the commissioner of Sutherland advocated for a state administered program of colonization in the Scottish Highlands, similarly arguing that the [00:28:00] Gaelic race and its inferior temperament presented an obstacle to the onward march of civilization. Locke set out a vision for the colonization, displacement, and reeducation of Gaelic Highlanders, where eventually, quote, 'the children of those removed from the hills will lose all recollection of the habits and customs of their fathers.'Locke's vision has broadly come true," end quote. And so, within the context of the wider spectrum and calendars and geographies that we've kind of been discussing, but more specifically in the context of Scotland, I'm curious if the people that you met there, either locals or visitors and especially in the case of those coming for a homecoming or heritage trip had an understanding of these things, of this history.Christos: No, that's what I found out. [00:29:00] What I've found in my lifetime, cause this isn't the only kind of project around this kind of theme that I've done. Maybe we'll get, I did another project with Mexican friends going back to Spain and kind of repatriating or reconnecting back through the kind of the displacement of the Spanish civil war.But what I've found is those of us of the colonies, that's kind of what I consider myself in ourselves, like people of the colonies. I'm not sure if it's better or worse that we're the ones that hold on to the stories and the memories and the people back quote "home" or in the "homeland" for the large part have moved on and don't really give much thought to these histories of displacement.It's almost, oh my God, it was strange to be in this country where most of the place names in the Highlands are Gaelic, and 98 percent of Scottish citizens cannot read or understand Gaelic, so partly it was this strangeness of being in a country where only two out of every hundred people could even understand the names of the places where they lived, even [00:30:00] though they had never left there and their people had never left there.And you know, if you let that sink in, it's like, let's say you and I being of Greek descent, imagine if 90 percent of Greeks couldn't understand Greek, you know what I mean? And couldn't understand the name of their own village. And well, there's, here's another angle to this in Scotland.When you want to learn traditional Gaelic fiddle, you go to Cape Breton in Nova Scotia in Canada because that's where the Highlanders who immigrated to Nova Scotia in the past kept the tradition pure and kept fiddle playing what it had always been. Whereas, you know in Scotland now, they're into hip hop and trap and drum and bass and stuff like this.And so if you're Scottish and you've never left Scotland in order to connect with the music of your ancestors you have to go to Canada, so most people that I interviewed and I think this is fair, you know to assume of most people Don't [00:31:00] think much about the ethnic cleansing that went on whichever side that they were on And it's kind of left to us in the colonies either to also let it go and move on and try to settle into these new lands or you kind of keep holding on to this memory of a place you've actually never lived, you know, and it's almost like both propositions are grief soaked.Both are kind of almost an impossible poem to hold because obviously there were people here before our European ancestors came. Obviously, we don't have these deep roots or memories or connections to this place. We don't have ceremonies or songs or much that's derived from this land, at least not yet.And yet many of us lose the language and the ceremonies and the traditions of the places where our ancestors came. It's almost like at least we still know where we've come from. Whereas to be in Europe, or at least in Scotland, and to have never left, but to nevertheless have also lost the connection with [00:32:00] your own ancestors and your own language and those places it's almost like a parallel process where there are people that get on the boats and leave, but there are people that are left behind. But it's almost like, regardless whether you leave or whether you stay, the fabric of that culture just gets completely rendered and torn apart by that displacement. And somehow, even though you never leave having so many of your people leave actually kind of compromises the ability to stay where you are, and to be connected to where you are. ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a subscriber!I interviewed one woman who had an ancestor who in Scotland, they call like psychic abilities, the second sight.So the idea of having kind of psychic premonitions or all of a sudden knowing that like your brother has died, even though he's in Australia, you know, that kind of thing. That people had that when I lived in Scotland and when they moved to Canada, they actually lost that ability. You know, so it's this idea that it's not that you carry almost these knowledges or abilities just in you, but it's actually comes from the connection [00:33:00] to the place.And once that connection becomes severed, you lose those capacities. And I've actually never said this out loud, but I wonder how much the people that stayed behind actually lost because of all the people that left, if that made sense. It's almost like, how does a culture stay resilient when almost everyone between the ages of like 20 and 40 leaves and never comes back.I think you could consider that this is all just stuff to wonder about. But like, for those of us that come from these kind of like largely settler countries like Canada and the U. S, we're still living through these questions. We're still living through these implications of like, how long do you hold on to the past? And at what point do you just kind of let go and move forward? And If you do so, how do you move forward in a place that you don't have any roots?Chris: You know. I remember going to see, going to my father's village in northern Greece for the first time some eight years ago, and knowing that I had [00:34:00] one baba or grandmother left there, and after searching for a few hours, she was hard of hearing at the time, finally found her, finally found the house and shared a delicious meal and traded photographs.I had no Greek or Macedonian language ability at the time. And then I was I called a taxi later on some, you know, at the end of the day to go back to the city, to the hotel, and standing in her garden there, she began to weep, right, without having said anything, even with the language barrier, I could understand what she was saying, and she was, she was mourning the migration of my family or my side of the family, or my father's side of the family to Canada, and then, her son and his family to Germany.And so, there's this question of what comes upon the people that quote unquote "stay." that's so often lost in the discourses [00:35:00] around migration, kind of always focusing on the individual, the migrant themselves, or the places that they arrive in.But do we just let it go? And how do we do that? I have this other quote from your dissertation that lands really strangely in this moment, in this conversation and it has to do a little bit with the kind of what I think you refer to as a national geographic imaginary.And so this is the response of the people in Scotland, in the Highlands embedded and engaged and indebted to these hill walking and homecoming industries. And so in your dissertation, it's written that "in February of 2017, an uproar on all sides erupted when, in a rare sign of bipartisan solidarity, both Mountaineering Scotland and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association attempted to pressure the Scottish government to abandon a [00:36:00] proposal to increase woodland cover, trees, from 17 percent to 25%. by 2050. The commitment to plant 10, 000 extra hectares of trees between now and 2022 was made in the government's draft climate plan. The protesting organizations argued that there had not been enough consultation and consideration given to the changes to the highland landscape that would come about by this tree planting initiative.And they were voicing their concern on whether, quote, 'adequate weight is being given to the significant changes this will have on the landscape of Scotland, and in particular, the dramatic open views and vistas which have come to signify to the outside world that which is unique about our country.'" End quote.And so this seems to be, to some degree, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but a manner of contending [00:37:00] with that past in a way that is, you know, perhaps ignorant of it. Or that is perhaps also faithfully serving the needs, the economic needs of the people, of the place.Christos: There's a lot there. I'm, what's coming to me, do you know this quote? It's from ancient Rome. It's a bit convoluted, but this is a Roman text talking about the colonization of Britain, so of the Romans conquering the Gaelic people in the Picts, but it's In a speech written by this Roman historian that he's attributing to like the Gaelic king, basically. So it's not, this wasn't actually said by a Gaelic king, it's just a Roman kind of putting these words in his mouth to kind of create like a battle scene, but but a lot of people quote this and it's from the Gaelic perspective referring to the Romans saying "the Romans make a desert and call it peace."[00:38:00] And that's kind of what's happened in Scotland is the villages were cleansed, literally. You know, the houses were burned down and knocked down. The people were forcibly, sometimes violently, thrown out of their homes into the cold. Many of them just had no prospects to be able to stay and move to Glasgow.And many of them, you know, came to Toronto and Saskatchewan and North Carolina and all this. And so after they left, these highlands kind of became empty, like this vast emptiness. And then once the Victorian English came into that landscape and started painting it and writing Victorian poems about it, this aesthetic of this, treeless, vast expanse became kind of that National Geographic kind of aesthetic of the mountain peak and the colorful heather and then the loch or the lake, kind of [00:39:00] reflecting the mountain.You can just imagine the scene, right? Of like the mountain peak being reflected in inverse in the lake, you know, kind of thing. It's just that perfect kind of symmetrical perspective photograph or painting. And then that kind of became the symbol of freedom and tranquility which is basically like a site of ethnic cleansing becomes a symbol of beauty.And then what happens is you keep managing the landscape to maintain that aesthetic, which is why you find the strangeness of, like, environmental groups arguing that planting trees is ecological vandalism, that you're ruining the ecology of a place because your trees are gonna get away in the way of these vast expanses.So it's it's this weird wondering on, like, how certain aesthetics become symbolic of something. And then you manage the land, to maintain that aesthetic. Even though it's [00:40:00] absolute death for the wild, the wildlife and even the people in that landscape, to maintain it in that way. The thing that might not be obvious to most people which wasn't I didn't know about this whole world before I moved there, but Scotland's one of the few if not only place in all of Europe where you can still be a feudal lord like they call it a laird, l-a-i-r-d, but it's like a lord where all you need to do to be a lord is you just buy land and if you have enough land you're you claim title of Lord Wow.And most people that are lords in Scotland these days are not even British. You have people from Saudi Arabia, from all over that have bought up the highlands in many ways. And they have these estates and you know, Balmoral estate, which is like the Queens, or I guess she's dead now. Now it's King Charles's estate.And what you do is maybe once a year you and all your rich friends from all over the world fly in [00:41:00] and do this traditional game hunt where you might be hunting deer, but more often you're actually hunting wild birds. You know, so grouse especially. If anyone's seen, I find it fascinating watching Downton Abbey, that TV series, because it's kind of, it covers a lot of the kind of that, that time in Britain.And there's an episode or two where they go into the Scottish countryside to go, you know, go hunting. So it's this weird aesthetic where you dress up in a certain way, kind of like an old time Scottish lord, and you go out on the land with dogs and you shoot down birds, and in order for the birds to live there you need the landscape to basically be wide open, because that's actually what they prefer.And so, this is why, again, for the context of that quote, you have an environmental group, and basically, rich, elite gamekeepers working together to keep the government from planting trees in this landscape because it's in both their interest to maintain [00:42:00] this landscape as an ecological wasteland, essentially that people can't sustain themselves off of or people can't live in So you're kind of farming emptiness if that makes sense in a way you're like cultivating emptiness. Yeah. For tourism. Which again I mean, you've been talking to so many people about this subject. To me, it's fascinating what tourism can be or what it can mean, you know, or like what need is trying to be fulfilled in these, in these landscapes that often get kind of territorialized as touristic, you know, because most people, when they travel, they don't go to walk around the suburbs of a city. There's only certain places that tourists are drawn to, right? Hmm. And so I'm always curious about why and what tourists are drawn to, you know, what is like almost like the resource there that is being extracted. In Chris: the context of your work, you know, largely in regards to, to landscapes and we've spoken a fair amount today about [00:43:00] landscapes as, as objects at the very least.But in, in your dissertation, you know, there was a line that struck me certainly I think coming from your animist tendencies and sentiments where you say that "landscapes are mediums and landscapes are a process," and I'm curious, as we kind of wind ourselves towards the end of our time together, if you could elaborate on this for our listeners a little bit, this, this idea of landscapes as mediums or as processes.Christos: Yeah, so I've done my, my PhD in the field of cultural geography, or sometimes called human geography, which is kind of like anthropology except kind of rooted in place, I'd say that's the big difference. It's not as popular here in North America, but in the UK it's much more popular. And probably the primary focus in that field is landscape, which I think most people might be familiar with that term in terms of like, maybe landscape [00:44:00] gardening or landscape painting.But when you get deep into it, which is kind of what grad school is, is you're like a big weirdo and you just get so deep into something so friggin specific that, you know, most people think you might think about once in your lifetime, but you end up spending nine years thinking about and writing about.It's almost like you can't perceive a place without some kind of filter, if that makes sense. It's almost like there's no such thing as just like a place or land that's just objectively out there. Like, I spent most of a winter, you know, down where you are in Oaxaca, but you having lived there for this long, like if you and I walk around in the streets of Ciudad Oaxaca, you're going to perceive so much more than I am, or at least many different things than I am, right?I'm going to be purely a tourist, I'm going to be reading on a surface level where you might have dozens of memories come up from your time living there and different things that have happened. And [00:45:00] so, in that way, like a landscape is almost, is always like a medium, meaning like our own perceptions, our own projections, our own memories are always affecting the way that we perceive a place.And so cultural geography, the field that I'm in, kind of looks at that. It looks, literally at the kind of the, the collision of culture and geography and like the politics of a place. You know, I was talking about like earlier about landscape management. You know, there are people that are choosing how to manage the landscape in the highlands, where to allocate money and where to cut money from.And all of those decisions are based on preferences of aesthetics and land use, in terms of landscape. So for anyone that's interested, it's a fascinating field to start looking at what we perceive in a place or in places [00:46:00] and how, what we perceive or what we wish to be there affects, you know, the politics of a place.And again, the contemporary crisis right now, Israel Palestine, this question of like, who belongs there? Whose land is it? What do you see in that landscape? For some people, they see an ancient Jewish homeland that these persecuted people are trying to return to and reclaim and for other people, they see, you know, an indigenous Arab people that are being displaced by outside colonizers and, you know, both in their way are right and wrong.I'm not going to wade into the politics of it, but the way that landscape is used as a medium, politically, economically, culturally, is a really fascinating subject, at least for me.Chris: Well, thank you for that, and to finish up with a question around pilgrimage, which Jerusalem being the quote unquote, "holy land" and where so many pilgrimages landed in in previous times and of course in contemporary ones as [00:47:00] well. I'm curious about what you could describe as ritualized memorial acts of walking. And I'd like to finish by asking what have been the most achieved and enduring acts of ritual that you've encountered? What lessons might they have to teach us in a time of hypermobility?Christos: Again, that's like a huge question. Okay, I'll try to be succinct if I can. I don't know why I'm drawn to these kinds of histories, but anywhere I go in the world, I tend to be drawn to, yeah, histories of displacement, I would say.It's a strange thing to be interested in for most people, but it probably speaks to the fact that I am the fourth generation of men to leave the country that I was born. You know, that's between both sides of the family, it's not all one lineage. But being of Greek descent, Greece has long been a country where people leave, you know?Like, right now, the [00:48:00] United States is a country where people come to, but to be claimed by a place where for hundreds of years now, so many people, whether by choice or circumstance, leave their home probably does something to you, you know? And so Anywhere I've traveled in the world, I tend to either seek out or be sought out by these kinds of histories, and so I referred a bit earlier to this project I did years ago where I was spending a lot of time in Mexico and ended up meeting what became a friend is an artist from Mexico City, Javier Arellán, and he was second generation Mexican.His grandfather was from Barcelona in Spain and was a fighter pilot for the Spanish Republic, so like the legitimate democratically elected government of Spain. And when Franco and the fascists kind of staged a coup and the Spanish Civil War broke out you know, he was on the side [00:49:00] of the government, the Republican army.And Barcelona was basically the last stand of the Republicans as the fascist kind of came up from the from the south and when Barcelona fell everyone that could literally just fled on foot to try to cross into France, nearby to try to escape, because knowing that if they were captured they would be imprisoned or killed by the fascists who had basically taken over the country now.But the French didn't want tens of thousands of socialists pouring into their country because they were right wing. And so rather than letting people escape they actually put all the Spanish refugees in concentration camps on the French border. And that's where my friend's grandfather was interred for like six months in a place called Argilet sur Mer, just over the French border.And then from there, Algeria took a bunch of refugees and he was sent to Algeria. And then from there, the only countries in the whole world that would [00:50:00] accept these left wing Spanish refugees was Mexico and Russia. And so about 50, 000 Spanish Republican refugees relocated to Mexico City. They had a huge influence on Mexican culture.They started UNAM, like the national university in Mexico City. And my friend Javier Grew up in Mexico city, going to a Spanish Republican elementary school, singing the Spanish Republican National Anthem and considering themselves Spaniards, you know, who happened to be living in Mexico. And so when I met him, with my interests, we, you know, overlapped and I found out that him and his wife were soon setting out to go back to that same beach in France where his grandfather was interred, in the concentration camp and then to walk from there back to Barcelona because his grandfather had died in Mexico before Franco died, so he never got to return home. You know, maybe like a lot of Greeks that left and [00:51:00] never did get to go back home, certainly never moved back home.And so we went to France and we started on this beach, which is a really kind of trashy touristy kind of beach, today. And we thought you know, that's what it is today, but we then found out talking to people that that's actually what it was back in the 1930s, 1940s was this touristy beach and what the French did was literally put a fence around and put these refugees on the beach in the middle of like a tourism beach literally as prisoners while people on the fence were like swimming and eating ice cream and, you know, and being on vacation.So even that site itself is pretty fucked up. A lot of people died there on that beach. And it was 15 days walking the entire coast from the French border back to Barcelona. And whereas Javier's community in Mexico city actually raised [00:52:00] funds for us and we're really excited about this idea of homecoming and going back home to Spain.We quickly discovered when we started talking to locals about what we were doing, they would stop talking to us and walk away and they didn't want anything to do with us. They did not want to know these histories. They didn't want to touch it. And what we found out is like Spain has never really dealt with this history.And it's such a trauma and nobody wants to talk about it. So again, it's this strange thing where it's like us from the Americas, you know, my friend from Mexico was wanting to return home and it was a strange trip for him because he thought of himself as a Spaniard returning home and these Spaniards were like, "you're a Mexican tourist and I don't want to talk to you about the civil war, you know?"And I think that really hurt him in a lot of ways because he almost kept trying to prove that he wasn't a tourist, whereas for me, I knew that I was a tourist because, you know, I have no history there.[00:53:00] In terms of pilgrimage, I've done other pilgrimages, other walks I won't get into now, but there's something about walking a landscape or walking a land as opposed to driving, obviously, or flying that the pace of walking, I think, allows you to interact with people and with places at a rhythm that is maybe more organic, maybe more holistic. I did do the Camino de Santiago, the pilgrimage in Spain, like I did that another 15 days as well. And for me there's nothing like walking. You know, there's, there's something that happens. To your mind, to your body, to your spirit when you're moving that I've never experienced through any kind of other travel.And unfortunately there are only so many places in the world where you can walk for days or weeks on end that have the infrastructure set up to do so. And I know that here in the Americas other than walking on busy roads, it's pretty hard to get long distances through walking.And so I think another thing that tourism has done is kind of cut off the transitional kind of walking and you just kind of fly off and just kind of plop yourself [00:54:00] down and then get extracted out through an airplane, but you don't have the experience of seeing the landscape change day by day, footstep by footstep, and experiencing the place at that speed, at that pace, which is, you know, a very slow pace compared to an airplane, obviously.Chris: Mm hmm. Perhaps, perhaps very needed in our time. Christos: I hope so. I think there's something about it. I think there's something humanizing about it. About walking. Chris: Well, I've asked a lot of you today, my friend. And we've managed to court and conjure all of the questions that I've, that I had prepared for you.Which I thought was impossible. So, on behalf of our listeners and perhaps all those who might come to this in some way, your dissertation at some point down the road, I'd like to thank you for your time and certainly your dedication.And I imagine a PhD, nine year PhD [00:55:00] research process can be extremely grueling. That said, I imagine it's not the only thing that you have on your plate. I know that you're also an artist a teacher, writer, and Kairotic facilitator. I'm saying that right. To finish off, maybe you'd be willing to share a little bit of what that entails and how our listeners might be able to get in touch and follow your work.Christos: Yeah, first I'll just say thanks for reaching out, Chris, and inviting me to do this. I've listened to your podcast and love these kinds of conversations around these topics of place and belonging. It's obviously deep in my heart and I said this to you earlier, other than my supervisors and my examiners, I think you're the first person to read my dissertation, so I appreciate that you took the time to read it and to draw quotes and to discuss it with me because, I think most people that have done a PhD know that it can be a pretty solitary process to go so deep into such a tiny little corner of like knowledge that for most people is not what they're interested in every day and to [00:56:00] share these stories. Thank you. So yeah, my website is ChristosGolanis. com. And part of what I do is working with this Greek term, kairos. So in Greek there are at least three words for time. One is chronos, which is like linear time. One is aeon, which is like kind of eternal time.And one is kairos, gets translated as kairos, which is like almost the appropriate time or ceremonial time. And my best definition of that is you know, there are some things that are scheduled, like you and I for months ago planned this particular time and this particular day to do this interview.But deciding, let's say, when to get married with your partner doesn't follow any kind of rational, linear timeline. That's more of a feeling. And so the feeling of like when some, when it's appropriate for something is what Greeks consider to be keros, like, you know, keros for something like it's, it's the appropriate time for something.So. What I do is I kind of counsel people to craft [00:57:00] ceremonies or rituals for big transitions in their lives to mark things in their life through ritual or ceremony. Like I said, for like a homecoming two weeks of walking the coast of Spain can be a ceremony, right, of kind of walking your dead grandfather back home. I think there's something about the impulse to go out into the world, to find something, to integrate something, to process something, right versus staying right where you are and kind of with community, with others. It's kind of ritually marking it, integrating it, and you know, it's cheaper, it's easier on the environment, and sometimes can, can go a lot deeper than going away and coming back, and maybe not much has changed.But it can be dealing with the transition of someone from life into death or a birth or a career change. And so basically using ceremony and ritual to really mark and integrate these significant moments in our lives so that we can be fully with them as they're happening or as they've happened in the past, but haven't been able to be integrated.So that's some of the kind of [00:58:00] work that people can do with me if you want to reach out through my website. Chris: Well I very much look forward to seeing and hearing your dissertation in the world outside of these small groups of podcast interviewers and academics. So, hopefully one day that's the case if there's any editors or publishers out there who enjoyed what you heard today and want to, want to hear more, please get in touch with me or Christos and we can, we can get that into the world in a good way.Christos, thank you so much brother. It's been a pleasure and I hope to have you on the pod again soon. Christos: All right. Thank you. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

With special guest host Stephen Jenkinson, Kimberly and Stephen consult with three engaged couples and an unmarried woman to wonder aloud about the institution of marriage.  Stephen describes his experience, when he was asked to marry several couples, how he did his homework.  What does it mean to approach matrimony as something other than a predictable, foreseen conclusion?  Are weddings overly performative? Is it possible for a wedding to feel authentic?  Kimberly describes what she learned from having a wedding in the working terreiros culture of Bahia, Brazil.  Stephen describes why a ceremony has no audience - it only has witnesses and participants. Stephen and Kimberly contend with how contemporary couples, longing for ceremony in their matrimony, strive for integrity in their union. This episode is just the tip of iceberg.    Starting February 25th, Stephen and Kimberly will start their 5-part Online Series "Forgotten Pillars: Patrimony, Matrimony, Kinship, Ancestors & Ceremony."   They will dive much deeper into the lessons gleaned from working cultures of the past to inform meaningful ways for couples, families, and communities to come together for experiences that linger long past the "big day."    Find out more or join us: https://kimberlyannjohnson.com/forgotten-pillars/

On death, grieving, service, and releasing our fixation on redemption.

Enjoy this deep and soulful conversation with “The Griefwalker” Stephen Jenkinson. My guest Stephen Jenkinson is the author of the award-winning book Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul and the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School. He discusses the Nights of Grief and Mystery project, which he created with singer/songwriter… Continue reading Ep. 440 Nights of Grief and Mystery with Stephen Jenkinson

Welcome back to Slo Mo. With this episode, we complete the list of the Top 10 episodes for 2023, and share with you some moments that really left a mark on me. I've grown as  a person with every conversation, and I hope that if you've been with us for the whole year, some have left a mark on you. For yet another shift in our perspectives, and for an always happier new year, listen as we revisit the following moments from 2023. I love you all. Caggie Dunlop (full episode here) was an original cast member of the award-winning UK-based reality show Made in Chelsea. She is also a singer/songwriter, poet, entrepreneur and now author. Her new book Saturn Returns explores the relationship between planetary movements and the ups and downs of life. Stephen Jenkinson (full episode here) is someone I consider an important teacher in my life. He is a cultural activist, he is a farmer and a philosopher. He is the author of a number of books including some that are my favorites. He has years of experience as a palliative care worker and is a former program director at a major Canadian hospital.The Minimalists (full episode here), one of the most popular in the world, are a trio of like-minded people helping others achieve a happier lifestyle by removing the unnecessary items that may clutter up their lives.  Original members Joshua Fields Millburn and Ryan Nicodemus were joined by  T.K. Coleman in 2022. April Rinne (full episode here) is the author of 'Flux: 8 Super Powers for Thriving in Change.' She is also a World Economic Forum Young Global Leader and ranked one of the “50 Leading Female Futurists” in the world by Forbes.  Hannah Lord (full episode here) is a psychologist and business consultant. Hannah's goal is to rewire the cognitive pathways keeping people stuck through her work as a therapist and her online program, The Weight Lift. You'll hear why she is much more than a guest on the show.YouTube: @mogawdatofficialInstagram: @mo_gawdatFacebook: @mo.gawdat.officialLinkedIn: /in/mogawdatX: @mgawdatWebsite: mogawdat.comDon't forget to subscribe to Slo Mo for new episodes every Saturday. Only with your help can we reach One Billion Happy #onebillionhappy

In this special podcast edition of the live event "From the Ruins of a Greenhouse", Campfire Stories founder Mattias Olsson interviews activist, farmer and author Stephen Jenkinson. The evening opens with a song by Petronella Sjöö, followed by part one of the interview, where the topics range from farming to village mindedness to animism. The set is closed out by a live performance from Stephen Jenkinson and Gregory Hoskins' show "Nights of Grief and Mystery". This event was recorded live at the farming collective Under Tallarna in Järna, Sweden.Please consider becoming a Patreon supporter of Campfire Stories: https://www.patreon.com/mattiasolssonOr, to make a one-off donation, visit: https://campfire-stories.org/boxoffice/To watch all of the Campfire Stories' films, visit: https://campfire-stories.org/film-library/And to listen to all podcast episodes, check out: https://campfire-stories.org/podcast-library/Follow Petronella Sjöö on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/petronellasjoo/Find out more about Gregory Hoskins here: https://gregoryhoskins.com/Read more about Stephen Jenkinson and the Orphan Wisdom School here: https://orphanwisdom.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Stop, be still, make room for the darkness Links: O Night: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=778236623110531&set=a.573965980204264 Praise to the Holy Dark: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=776085349992325&set=a.573965980204264 Dark Still by Stephen Jenkinson: https://orphanwisdom.com/2014/12/20/dark-still/

In this episode, we share the profound work of Stephen Jenkinson, an internationally renowned teacher and author of Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul and Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble. Stephen shares his experiences working with dying people and their families as a former program director in a Canadian hospital, shedding light on the brokenness of our modern Western approach to death and end of life care. He challenges the prevailing death phobia in our society and explores the importance of embracing the reality of dying in order to live more fully. Through his thought-provoking insights, Stephen invites us to reconsider our understanding of aging, what it means to be an elder and the fears we face about our changing modern world.Stephen also shares his insights on spirituality and the blurred lines between a spiritual life and a regular life, the challenges faced by both the oldest and youngest generations in a rapidly changing world and the importance of understanding our past and the potential consequences of our actions on future generations. Tune in for a deep and introspective conversation that will leave you questioning your role in shaping the world around you and your impulse for “answers” in light of the realities of our times…

Tahnee sits down with the formidable and incredibly inspiring, Kimberly Ann Johnson, for a raw and potent chat about the feminine experience. The women explore the role of archetypal rites of passage; birth, menarche, menopause, death, and the unique, nuanced and powerful technology that female physiology inherently embodies.   Informed by her work as a Sexological Bodyworker, Somatic Experiencing practitioner, author, yoga teacher, mother and postpartum advocate, Kimberly speaks with true reverence for the cyclic nature of womanhood, expressing that the faculty of listening, witnessing and holding space for the processes that are forever unfurling themselves within the body, mind and spirit of women is one of the most nurturing acts that women can offer both themselves and others. When we give our deep attention to the beauty, wildness and non linear nature of the feminine experience we agree to a rebellion against the rigid societal structures that feel as though they are designed to keep women confined to an existence that is far too small for the raw force of their intrinsic nature.  Kimberly shares her work with people in trauma, defining trauma as the outcome of an incomplete cycle, an event that because it has gone unwitnessed and unacknowledged in its full, lingers as injury in the body and psyche. Here we are introduced to the profound impact of circle work, of sitting in the presence of and holding space for the buoyancy and the dullness that colour the spectrum of human experience.  As Kimberly speaks she allows herself to feel and express emotion as it arises, her voice at times choked by the acknowledgement of grief, joy, love and despair, and it is truly freeing to receive. The courage of heart, the embodiment of all she teaches and practices is a breath of fresh air, a humbling gesture of solidarity to the part in all of us that longs to feel safe within the full scope of our somatic experience. I loved this one, I hope you do too.    Kimberly & Tahnee discuss: - Kimberly's origin story. - Community and what women really need postpartum. - The power of witnessing and circle work. - Feminine trauma, what it is and how it presents in the body. - Archetypal rites of passage. - Menopause & not giving a f#ck. - Kimberly's work with Stephen Jenkinson and the  value of wisdom and eldership in our society.   Resource guide Guest Links Kimberly's Website. Kimberly's Instagram. Kimberly's Facebook. Kimberly's YouTube. Kimberly's Linkedin. Mentioned In This Episode Mother Circle Online CourseKimberly's BooksSecond Spring Book - Kate CodringtonJane Hardwicke Collings WebsiteJane Hardwicke Collings Four Seasons JourneyJane Hardwicke Collings Autumn Woman Harvest Queen WorkshopUma Dinsmore-Tuli Yoga Nidra Related Podcasts The Power Of Menopause with Jane Hardwicke Collings (EP#77)Only Living People Die with Stephen Jenkinson (EP#203)Sexual Activation and Feminine Embodiment with Eva Williams (EP#144) Connect With Us SuperFeast InstagramSuperFeast FacebookSuperFeast TikTok SuperFeast Online Education   Check Out The Transcript Below: https://www.superfeast.com.au/blogs/articles/trauma-the-feminine-experience-with-kimberly-ann-johnson-ep-210    

Margaret (Meg) Wheatley (collapse theorist, global leadership consultant) is something of a legend in her field. She has worked for 50 years helping humans adapt to their world using systems analysis, chaos theory and deep spiritualism (she's good friends with one of my heroes the Buddhist monk Pema Chödrön). Poets, scientists and philosophers quote her writing, she has worked in countless disaster situations around the world and was commissioned to transform the leadership of large institutions such as the US Army and the National Park Service. Plus she's the author of 12 books, including Who Do We Choose to Be? and the forthcoming Restoring Sanity. Meg has also researched the collapse of civilisations throughout history and is a leading voice among a community of scientists, economists, historians and philosophers who are arguing that our civilisation is also currently heading toward collapse. This is a challenging conversation and the subject has its deniers. Meg steers our focus to becoming the leaders we want to see amid the cascading crises facing the world and to create “islands of sanity” amid the despair. In this conversation, we cover the responsibility of the rich, why it's redundant to talk about saving the world, and how to sit in despair and create a meaningful life from it all.Meg and I also recorded a second and even more challenging episode that can be found over at my Substack. In this extra episode we cover how long we've got left (when will collapse occur?), how to cope when others are still consuming and distracting themselves away from the issue, how to raise kids in this knowledge, where to live in coming years… SHOW NOTESMeg references the poet David Whyte who has also been a guest on Wild You can purchase Who Do We Choose to Be? now and preorder Restoring Sanity (coming March 2024)Find out about her workshops and events hereOther Wild conversations with elders: Stephen Jenkinson, Sister Helen Prejean and Margaret Atwood If you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" pageFor more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it's where I interact the most!Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious LifeLet's connect on Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

'We're all dying from the moment we are born.' It's the truth, but a truth we never really acknowledge or contemplate. I never could have imagined how much I was going to love this conversation with Stephen Jenkinson. He's a philosopher and a wordsmith, a deep-thinker and an articulate communicator, and he has a way of weaving linguistic magic that took my mind into places it loves to go.  We talk about death and what it means to die. How we wrestle with fear of it and thus in the process of which, do we truly live? As humans we are tiny, fleeting and somewhat insignificant on this earth... What happens if and when we make peace with this concept? Or can we make peace with it at all? SPONSORED BY TESTART FAMILY LAWYERS Website: testartfamilylawyers.com.au STEPHEN JENKINSON Website: orphanwisdom.com TIFFANEE COOK Linktree: linktr.ee/rollwiththepunches Website: rollwiththepunches.com.au LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/tiffaneecook/ Facebook: facebook.com/rollwiththepunchespodcast/ Instagram: instagram.com/rollwiththepunches_podcast/ Instagram: instagram.com/tiffaneeandcoSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

00:03:00 Mistakes driven learning 00:07:00 Awe and mystery 00:11:00 Crisis and choice 00:15:00 Giving away your best stuff, wisdom and dying 00:19:00 Leaving room for others 00:22:00 Suffering and being a burden 00:28:00 Grief, practice and love 00:36:00 Regrets and beliefs   Links: Stephen Jenkinson: https://orphanwisdom.com/about/   Nights of Grief & Mystery Tour: https://orphanwisdom.com/nights-of-grief-and-mystery/   Link to 1st Interview with Stephen: Understanding How Things Have Become as They Are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7JnwNg0xLg   Podcast Webpage & Transcript https://oliviaclementine.com/podcasts   Support Enjoy these episodes? Please leave a review here. Scroll down to Review & Ratings. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/love-liberation/id1393858607

Today Tahnee sits down with Stephen Jenkinson, author, storyteller, musician, and culture activist, for a very real and very potent conversation around living, dying, and what it takes to embrace the fragility and asymmetry of life.  Influenced by a diversity of life experience and his work in death centred care, Stephen holds deep reverence for the art of living, a journey that is synonymous with loss. As an advocate for embodying death within the experience of life, Stephen asks us to engage with the practice of loss, of learning to live in the absence of something we once held dear or true as a preparation for the promised and very tangible characteristic of life; death.  Stephen views dying as a moral obligation, inviting the idea that to die mindfully, deliberately and consciously is a political act, a religious or spiritual event worth respecting as much as the breathing part of life.  Stephen poses the very important question that is so absent in our western culture; what is to become of me when I die?  Inviting us to hold awareness around the suggestion that to acknowledge the transient nature of life, is to be pertetually overwhelmed, a notion that is so beautifully captured in the following line he recites from an old provencal prayer; "God help me. My boat is so small and your sea so immense."   Throughout this discourse, Stephen encourages us to welcome the entire spectrum of living, to embrace the varied gradients that are expressed and experienced. We're summoned to ask ourselves whether we can cultivate the courage and embody the wisdom to remember the ones we love in the myriad of contexts they may inhabit. Whether we can we love the decrepit and decaying aspects of ourselves and others with as much vigour and enthusiasm as the parts that are robust, shiny and effervescent. If we can we sit alongside the dying with a smile instead of a grimace as they dissolve out of the breath based living that is so pedestaled and celebrated in our death illiterate culture. We are prompted to consider why death is continuously shunned and sanctioned to the dark corners of our psyches, asked whether we, in our enduring efforts to be the biggest, brightest and most gallant version of ourselves, are missing the poetry of loss?  It's in these questions that perhaps we begin to decipher the language crafted around our living and therefore our dying, to know and to develop the relationship we share with it.  A powerful and important chat today.   Stephen & Tahnee discuss: - Stephen's journey into death work.  - Living as an embodiment of death.  - Natural vs medicated death. - The extension of life as an extension of death. - Shepherding children through death and loss. - Approaching death with willingness vs resistance.    Resources Guest Links Orphan Wisdom Website Orphan Wisdom FacebookStephen's Youtube Mentioned In This Episode Die Wise Book Faith, Hope and Carnage Book Related Podcasts Death, Ceremony, and Walking Towards Grace with Zenith Virago (EP#117) Connect With Us SuperFeast InstagramSuperFeast FacebookSuperFeast TikTok SuperFeast Online Education   Check Out The Transcript Below: https://www.superfeast.com.au/blogs/articles/only-living-people-die-with-stephen-jenkinson-ep-203  

“We're not trying to be right. We're trying to see if we can see clearly.” In this agile and authentic episode, returning guest Stephen Jenkinson offers a lucid view of the world. How might our understanding of the world change if we approached life with a willingness to see things as they are rather than a need to only affirm that which we desire? Ayana and Stephen journey together to consider what had brought us to this modern time – prompting vital questions about the value of tradition, the importance of strangerhood, the possibility of reckoning, and the meaning of ancestry. Stephen asks questions that disrupt and unsettle the status quo, and perhaps these questions will lead us to the lessons we so deeply need. STEPHEN JENKINSON, MTS, MSW is an author, culture activist, ceremonialist and farmer. He teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010. With Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work), he has worked extensively with dying people and their families, is a former programme director in a major Canadian hospital and former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. He is the author of several books including 'Reckoning', 'A Generation's Worth', 'Come of Age', 'Money & the Soul's Desires' and the award-winning 'Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul'. Stephen is the subject of the National Film Board of Canada documentary 'Griefwalker', and 'Lost Nation Road', a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the wheelhouse of a mystery train. Nights of Grief and Mystery world tours, with singer/ songwriter Gregory Hoskins, are odes to wonder, love letters for the willingness to know endings. Music by Nights of Grief and Mystery. Visit our website at forthewild.world for the full episode description, references, and action points.Support the show

An episode that traces a connection between how humans understand their place in the world and the high levels of separation that plague humans in their interpersonal relationships with each other and with the world around them. Mentions: NeverLand with Stephen Jenkinson: https://youtu.be/4EF1rcbGxHE?si=aywpm5Ii1O6BCSTL Life Enriching Education by Marshall Rosenberg: https://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/product/life-enriching-education/ My Name is Chellis and I'm in Recovery from Western Civilization by Chellis Glendinning https://newsociety.com/books/m/my-name-is-chellis-and-im-in-recovery-from-western-civilization About Chief Oren Lyons: https://americanswhotellthetruth.org/portraits/oren-lyons/ If you have comments about this episode or topics you'd like me to explore in future episodes, please submit them here:   https://www.rachellelamb.com/contact-rachelle

Grief literary advocate Stephen Jenkinson connects with Raghu for a thought-provoking conversation on palliative care and dying wise.In this episode, Stephen Jenkinson and Raghu Markus peruse:The importance of storytelling and the human voiceFinding an alternative outlet for divinityExistential fear and dying wiseMoral and ethical dilemmas within the healthcare systemWhat constitutes care and the many gaps in medical practice wisdomMedical assistance in dying to relieve sufferingWhy limits and endings give life meaningThe wisdom and belonging of sadnessBargaining for more time instead of examining the quality of timeA better way to relate to the transition of life into deathThe idea of being ‘too late' and the consequences of our perceptionsHope as a mortgage on life and the certainties we falsely rely onDeath as a deity that we should accommodateTwo cultural icons. Two unique perspectives... One understanding of the presence of the way.Ram Dass' Love Serve Remember Foundation and the Alan Watts Organization invite you to open your mind, open your heart, and tap into the living truth of Alan Watts and Ram Dass. Learn more about this special 4-week Virtual Course:"The Presence of the Way: The Dharma of Alan Watts and Ram Dass"“I think if we cultivated a capacity to be sad we would make enormous headroads into our propensity for fear. I think sadness is an absolutely compelling and legitimate alternative but it needs at least as much tuition as fear does. You have to learn to be afraid, obviously, and you have to learn sadness as well.” – Stephen JenkinsonAbout Stephen Jenkinson:Stephen Jenkinson is a cultural activist, international teacher, and author. He is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School and has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). Apprenticed to a master storyteller when a young man, he has worked extensively with dying people and their families. He is the former program director in a major Canadian hospital and former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. Stephen is also a sculptor and traditional canoe builder.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Summary In this episode, Kimberly and Khadija reflect on their recent mutual aid efforts in the wake of fires in Maui. Khadija shares what she has witnessed in her community and the tremendous impact of donations that have directly reached her neighbors. They reflect on destination travel and the impact of tourism on both the land and the people of Hawaii. Khadija describes what led her to invite Kimberly and Stephen Jenkinson to Reckon on the island this coming November. They wonder together about the ethics of retreats, tourism, and what it means to be an “under-the-scene” worker.    To learn more about Maui Reckoning with Kimberly Ann Johnson and Stephen Jenkinson, hosted by Khadija Striegel, go here. This is a gathering for the Maui ‘ohana. You can contribute to the event by making a donation here. Bio Khadija is an herbalist, bonesetter and farmer born, raised, and living in Maui. She's in graduate school studying Hawaiian language and culture. Khadija works with a non-profit caring for the native plant gardens at a Heiau, an ancient Hawaiian place of prayer. She offers Lomi Lomi body work to her community, in addition to tinctures and remedies under the title Family Traditions Maui.   What You'll Hear: There are not only stories as a result of the fires in Maui - there are still ongoing lives and lived experiences. The variety of extremes that co-exist in Maui - of destination weddings, vacations, and those walking heavy with grief. These fires aren't an isolated incident. They are part of a broader timeline of things that have taken place on Maui. The donation effort of money and herbs and medicine are no small thing. This community is making an impact. There are still areas of the island that do not have safe water. Opening care packages with kids after a disaster. Development and tourism on the island has directly impacted the land in a way that doesn't feed the land, water, and people. The fires are inextricably linked to this. Lahaina as a special gathering place, whose streams lack water as a direct result of hotels and vacation homes and visitor rentals Land stewardship is actually simple. An act of love. Loving something not just for ourselves. Loving something by letting it be. The parallels of tourism and addiction. The addiction of going anywhere, doing anything, wherever I want. Whose job is it to teach the culture of a place? And to what audience? There is a longing to belong for many people. Many people find it in Hawaii. But at what cost? The difficulty of land and home ownership for native Hawaiians. Retreats in Hawaii. The infrequency of native Hawaiians leading sacred nature experiences? The power of a voice that doesn't  say simply “it's all okay” when it's clearly not “all okay. What does it mean to be under-the-scene workers? Not behind-the-scene but under-the-scene? Reckoning in November is to offer something to the residents of Maui.   Resources   Maui Reckoning, with Kimberly Ann Johnson and Stephen Jenkinson, hosted by Khadija Striegel, for the Maui ‘ohana   You are welcome to contribute to the event. Please send your donation via PayPal to Khadija here with the note “Maui Reckoning Donation”.   If you would like to send herbs and materials directly to Khadija to support the community in Maui, find Khadija's letter and list here.    You can connect with Khadija via khadija@familytraditionsmaui.com   

Stephen Jenkinson joins us to dive deep into the unspoken subject of death and dying. In this conversation we discuss the societal avoidance of death, the lasting impact of one's dying process, the importance of cultural continuity, and the genuine fear associated with death. Join us as we explore the deep and often challenging aspects of mortality with Stephen Jenkinson.See Stephen on his world tour with Nights of Grief & Mystery: https://www.orphanwisdom.com/nights-of-grief-and-mystery/Read Stephen's latest books 'Reckoning' and 'A Generation's Worth, Spirit Work While the Crisis Reigns' and listen to his music: https://www.orphanwisdom.com/shop/TUNE IN00:00 - Episode trailer06:52 - Why take on the role of the angel of death?11:32 - Why is death so intimidating when it's apart of all of our lives?16:11 - Where does the phobia of death come from?24:14 - Is it a failure of culture or the individual?30:49 - Is death hard because we struggle to surrender?47:43 - Your death doesn't belong to you50:31 - Why do we have to learn how to die?52:34 - Should we keep death at the forefront of our mind to live a full life?1:13:38 - How Stephen remains chipper amongst dense subject matter1:22:25 - Stephen's intention1:27:13 - Stephen's hope for you & humanity01:34:01 - Connect with StephenLISTEN & SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCASTSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2HJCflVnHRDmvNtI8r2a65?si=692723d115ce4ef2/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/inspired-evolution/id1272090974/CONNECT WITH STEPHEN JENKINSONWebsite: https://www.orphanwisdom.com/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@orphanwisdommedia/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/griefandmystery/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/orphanwisdom/JOIN THE INSPIRED EVOLUTION COMMUNITYWebsite: https://www.inspiredevolution/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@inspiredevolution/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inspired_evolution/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/inspiredevolution/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/inspired_evolution/Some of the links in this description are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through these links, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. Your support helps sustain the content on this channel

“Grief-walker” Stephen joins me to talk death, myths about death, how to have a good death, death phobia, ageing, The West, decadence, initiation,  young people, climate change, gender identity, divorce, and some wisdom for Ukraine. A very very deep one.   To join our courses and our community go to www.embodimentunlimited.com Find Mark Walsh on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/warkmalsh/   More info on Stephen Jenkinson work: https://orphanwisdom.com/

On this episode, my guest is Nick Hunt, the author of three travel books about journeys by foot, including Outlandish: Walking Europe's Unlikely Landscapes. His articles have appeared in The Guardian, Emergence, The Irish Times, New Internationalist, Resurgence & Ecologist and other publications. He works as an editor and co-director for the Dark Mountain Project. His latest book is an alternate history novel, Red Smoking Mirror.Show NotesAwe and the Great SecretOn Focus, Sight and SubjectivityThe Almost Lost Art of WalkingPilgrimage and the Half Way PointWhat if Left of Old-School Hospitality in our Times?When Borders Matter LessHospitality and PainThe Costs of InterculturalityAsking Permission: On Not Being WelcomeFriendship, Hospitality, and ExchangeHomeworkNick Hunt's Official WebsiteRed Smoking MirrorEssay: Bulls and ScarsTranscript[00:00:00] Chris Christou: Welcome Nick to the End of Tourism podcast. Thank you so very much for joining us today. [00:00:05] Nick Hunt: Very nice to be here, Chris. [00:00:07] Chris Christou: I have a feeling we're in for a very special conversation together. To begin, I'm wondering if you could offer us a glimpse into your world today, where you find yourself, and how the times seem to be rolling out in front of you, where you are.[00:00:22] Nick Hunt: Wow, that's a good, that's a good question. Geographically, I'm in Bristol, in the southwest of England, which is the city I grew up in and then moved away from and have come back to in the last five or so years. The city that I sat out the pandemic, which was quite a tough one for various reasons here and sort of for me personally and my family.But the last year really has just felt like everyone's opening out again and it feels... it's kind of good and bad. There was something about that time, I don't want to plunge straight into COVID because I'm sure everyone's sick of hearing about it, but the way it, it froze the world and froze people's personal lives and it froze all the good stuff, but it also froze a lot of the more difficult questions.So, I think in terms of kind of my wider work, which is often, focused around climate change, extinction, the state of the planet in general, the pandemic was, was oddly, you didn't have to think about the other problems for a while, even though they were still there. It dominated the airspace so much that everything else just kind of stopped.And now I find that in amongst all the joy of kind of friends emerging again and being able to travel, being able to meet people, being able to do stuff, there's also this looming feeling of like, the other problems are also waking up and we're looking at them again. [00:01:56] Chris Christou: Yeah. We have come back time to time in the last year or two in certain interviews of the pod and, and reflected a little bit on those times and considered that there was, among other things, it was a time where there was the possibility of real change. And I speak more to the places that have become tourist destinations, especially over touristed and when those people could finally leave their homes and there was nobody there that there was this sense of Okay, things could really be different [00:02:32] Nick Hunt: Yeah.As well. Yeah. I know there, there was a kind of hope wasn't there that, "oh, we can change, we can, we can act in, in a huge, unprecedented way." Maybe that will transfer to the environmental problems that we face. But sadly that didn't happen. Or it didn't happen yet. [00:02:53] Chris Christou: Well, time will tell. So Nick, I often ask my guests to begin with a bit of background on how their own travels have influenced their work, but since so much of your writing seems to revolve around your travels, I've decided to make that the major focus of our time together. And so I'd like to begin with your essay Bulls and Scars, which appears in issue number 14 of Dark Mountain entitled TERRA, and which was republished in The Best British Travel Writing of the 21st Century.[00:03:24] Nick Hunt: A hyperbolic, a hyperbolic title, I have to say. [00:03:29] Chris Christou: And in that exquisite essay on the theme of wanderlust, you write, and I quote, "always this sense, when traveling, will I find it here? Will the great secret reveal itself? Is it around the next corner? There is never anything around the next corner except the next corner, but sometimes I catch fragments of it.This fleeting thing I am looking for. That mountainside, that's a part of it there. The way the light falls on that wall. That old man sitting under a mulberry tree with his dog sleeping at his feet. That's a part of the secret too. If I could fit these pieces together, I would be completed. Waking on these sacks of rice, I nearly see the shape of it. The outlines of the secret loom, extraordinary and almost whole. I can almost touch it. I think. Yes, this is it. I am here. I have arrived, but I have not arrived. I am traveling too fast. The moment has already gone, the truck rolls onwards through the night, and the secret slides away.This great secret, Nick, that spurs so much of our wanderlust. I'm curious, where do you imagine it comes from personally, historically, or otherwise? [00:04:59] Nick Hunt: Wow. Wow. Thank you for reading that so beautifully. That was an attempt to express something that I think I've always, I've always felt, and I imagine everybody feels to some extent that sense of, I guess you could describe it as "awe," but this sense that I, I first experienced this when I was a kid.I was about maybe six, five or six years old, maybe seven. I can't remember. Used to spend a lot of time in North Wales where my grandparents lived and my mum would take me up there and she loved walking. So we'd go for walks and we were coming back from a walk at the end of a day. So it was mountains. It was up in Snowdonia.And I have a very vivid memory of a sunset and a sheep and a lamb and the sky being red and gold in sense that now I would describe it as awe, you know, the sublime or something like that. I had no, no words for it. I just knew it was very important that I, I stayed there for a bit and, and absorbed it.So I refused to walk on. And my mom, I'll always be grateful for this. She didn't attempt to kind of pull my hand and drag me back to the car cuz she probably had things to do. But she walked on actually and out of sight and left me just to kind of be there because she knew that this was an important thing.And for me, that's the start of, of the great secret. I think this sense of wanting to be inside the world. I've just been reading some Ursula LeGuin and there's a short story in her always coming home. I think it's called A Hole in the Air. And it's got this kind of conceit of a man stepping outside the world and he kind of goes to a parallel version of his world and it's the one in which some version of us lives.And it's the kind of, you know, sort of fucked up war-like version where everything's kind of terrible and polluted, dangerous and violent and he can't understand it. But this idea of he's gone outside the world and he can't find his way back in. And I think this is a theme in a lot of indigenous people.This idea of kind of being inside something and other cultures being outside. I think a lot, all of my writing and traveling really has been about wanting to get inside and kind of understand something. I don't know. I mean, I dunno what the secret is because it's a secret and what I was writing about in that essay was, I think in my twenties particularly, I kind of imagined that I could find this if I kept moving.The quicker the better because you're covering more ground and more chance of finding something that you're looking for, of knowing what's around the next corner, what's over the next hill. You know, even today I find it very difficult to kind of turn back on a walk before I've got to the top of a hill or some point where I can see what's coming next.It feels like something uncompleted and then I'm sure, as I imagine you did, you know, you were describing to me earlier about traveling throughout your twenties and always kind of looking for this thing and then realizing, what am I actually, you know, what am I doing? What am I actually looking for?Mm-hmm. So I still love traveling, obviously, but I don't feel this kind youthful urge just to keep moving, keep moving, keep moving, see more things, you know, experience more. And then I think you learn when you get a bit older that maybe that's not the way to find whatever it is that you are kind of restless for.Maybe that's when you turn inside a little bit more. And certainly my travels now are kind of shorter and slower than they were before, but I find that there's a better quality of focus in the landscapes or places that before I would've kind of dismissed and rushed through are now endlessly fascinating.And allowing more time to kind of stay in a place has its own value. [00:09:19] Chris Christou: Well, blessings to your mother. What's her name if I can ask? Her name's Caroline. It's the same name as my wife. So it's a source of endless entertainment for my friends. Well, thank you, Caroline, for, for that moment, for allowing it to happen.I think for better or worse, so many of us are robbed of those opportunities as children. And thinking recently about I'll have certain flashbacks to childhood and that awe and that awe-inspiring imagination that seems limitless perhaps for a young child and is slowly waned or weaned as we get older.So thank you to your mother for that. I'm sure part of the reason that we're having this conversation today. And you touched a little bit on this notion of expectation and you used the word focus as well, and I'm apt to consider more and more the the question of sight and how it dominates so much of our sense perception and our sense relationships as we move through our lives and as we move across the world.And so I'd like to bring up another little excerpt from Bulls and Scars, which I just have to say I loved so much. And in the essay you write, quote, "I know nothing about anything. It's a relief to admit this now and let myself be led. All I see is the surface of things. The elaborate hairstyle of a man, shaved to the crown and plastered down in a clay hardened bun, a woman's goat skin skirt, fringed with cowrie shelves and not the complex layers of meaning that lie beneath. I understand nothing of the ways in which these things fit together, how they collide or overlap. There are symbols I cannot read, lines I do not see."End quote. And so this, this reminded me. I have walking through a few textile shops here in Oaxaca some years ago with a friend of mine and he noted how tourists tend towards these textile styles, colors and designs, but specifically the ones that tend to fit their own aesthetics and how this can eventually alter what the local weavers produce and often in service to foreign tastes.And he said to me, he said, "most of the time we just don't know what we're looking at." And so it's not just our inability to see as a disciplined and locally formed skill that seems to betray us, but also our unwillingness to know just that that makes us tourists or foreigners in a place. My question to you is, how do you imagine we might subvert these culturally conjured ways of seeing, assuming that's even necessary? [00:12:24] Nick Hunt: Well, that's a question that comes up an awful lot as a travel writer. And it's one I've become more aware of over these three books I've written, which form a very loose trilogy about, they're all about walking in different parts of Europe.And I've only become more aware of that that challenge of the traveler. There's another line in that essay that something like " they say that traveling opens doors, but sometimes people take their doors with them." You know, it's not necessarily true, but any means that seeing the world kind of widens your perspective. A lot of people just, you know, their eyes don't change no matter where they go. And so, I know that when I'm doing these journeys, I'm going completely subjectively with my own prejudices, my own mood of the day which completely determines how I see a place and how I meet people and what I bring away from it.And also what I, what I give. And I think this is, this is kind of an unavoidable thing really. It's one of the paradoxes maybe at the heart of the kind of travel writing I do, and there's different types of travel writers. Some people are much more conscientious about when they talk to people, it's, you know, it's more like an interview.They'll record it. They'll only kind of quote exactly what they were told. But even that, there's a kind of layer of storytelling, obviously, because they are telling a story, they're telling a narrative, they're cutting certain things out of the frame, and they're including others. They're exaggerating or amplifying certain details that fit the narrative that they're following.I think an answer to your question, I, I'm not sure yet, but I'm hopefully becoming more, more aware. And I think one thing is not hiding it, is not pretending that a place as I see it, that I, by any means, can see the truth, you know, the kind of internal truth of this place. There's awareness that my view is my view and I think the best thing we can do is just not try and hide that to include it as part of the story we tell. Hmm. And I, I noticed for my first book, I did this long walk across Europe that took about seven and a half months. And there were many days when I didn't really want to be doing it.I was tired, sick, didn't want to be this kind of traveling stranger, always looking like the weirdo walking down the street with a big bag and kind of unshaved sunburnt face. And so I noticed that some villages I walked into, I would come away thinking, my God, those people were awful.They were really unfriendly. No one looked at me, no one smiled. I just felt this kind of hostility. And then I'd think, well, the common factor in this is always me. And I must have been walking into that village looking shifty, not really wanting to communicate with anyone, not making any contact, not explaining who I was.And of course they were just reflecting back what I was giving them. So I think, just kind of centering your own mood and the baggage you take with you is very important. [00:15:46] Chris Christou: Yeah. Well, I'd like to focus a little bit more deeply on that book and then those travels that you wrote about anyways, in Walking the Woods and the Water.And just a little bit of a background for our listeners. The book's description is as follows. "In 1933, Patrick Leigh Fermor set out in a pair of hobnail boots to chance and charm his way across Europe. Quote, like a tramp, a pilgrim, or a wandering scholar. From the hook of Holland to Istanbul. 78 years later, I (you) followed in his footsteps.The book recounts a seven month walk through Holland, Germany, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey on a quest to discover what remains of hospitality, kindness to strangers, freedom, wildness, adventure, and the deeper occurrence of myth and story that still flow beneath Europe's surface.Now before diving a little bit more deeply into these questions of hospitality and xenophobia or xenophilia, I'd like to ask about this pilgrimage and the others you've undertaken, especially, this possibility that seems to be so much an endangered species in our times, which is our willingness or capacity to proceed on foot as opposed to in vehicles.And so I'm curious how your choice to walk these paths affected your perception, how you experienced each new place, language, culture, and people emerging in front of you. Another way of asking the question would be, what is missed by our urge to travel in vehicles?[00:17:36] Nick Hunt: Well, that first walk, which set off the other ones, I later did. It could only have been a walk because the whole idea was to follow the footsteps of Patrick Leigh Fermor, who was a very celebrated travel writer who set out in 1933 with no ambition or kind of purpose other than he just wanted to walk to Istanbul.And it was his own kind of obsessive thing that he wanted to do. And I was deeply influenced by his book. And I was quite young and always thought I wanted to kind of try. I I was just curious to see the Europe that he saw was, you know, the last of a world that disappeared very shortly afterwards because he saw Germany as this unknown guy called Adolf Hitler, who was just emerging on the scene. He walked through these landscapes that were really feudal in character, you know, with counts living in castles and peasants working in the fields. And he, so he saw the last of this old Europe that was kind of wiped out by, well first the second World War, then communism in Eastern Europe and capitalism, in Western Europe and then everywhere.So it's just had so many very traumatic changes and I just wanted to know if there was any of what he saw left, if there was any of that slightly fairytale magic that he glimpsed. So I had to walk because it, it just wouldn't have worked doing it by any other form of transport. And I mean, initially, even though I'd made up my mind, I was going to go by foot and I knew I wasn't in a hurry. It was amazing how frustrating walking was in the first couple of weeks. It felt almost like the whole culture is, you know, geared around getting away, got to go as quickly as possible.In Holland actually I wasn't walking in remote mountains, I was walkingthrough southern industrial states and cities in which a walker feels, you feel like an outcast in places you shouldn't really be. So, it took a couple of weeks for my mind to really adjust and actually understand that slowness was the whole purpose. And then it became the pleasure.And by halfway through Germany, I hadn't gone on any other form of transport for maybe six weeks, and I stayed with someone who, he said, "I'm going to a New Year's Eve party in the next town." It was New Year's Eve. The next town was on my route. He said, "you know, I'm driving so I might as well take you there."So I said, "great," cuz it'd been a bit weird to kind of go to this town and then come back again. It was on my way. So, I got in a car and the journey took maybe half an hour and I completely panicked, moving at that speed, I was shocked by how much of the world was taken away from me, actually, because by then I'd learned to love spotting these places, you know, taking routes along, along rivers and through bits of woodland.I was able to see them coming and all of these things were flashing past me. We crossed the Rhine, which was this great river that I'd been following for weeks. And it was like a stream, you know, it was a puddle. It was kind of gone under the bridge in two seconds. Wow. And it really felt like I had this, this kind of guilt, to be honest.It was this feeling of what was in that day that I lost, you know, what didn't I see? Who didn't I meet? I've just been sitting in the passenger seat of a car, and I have no sense of direction. The thing about walking is you're completely located at all times. You walk into the center of a city and you've had to have walked through the suburbs.You've seen the outskirts, and it helps, you know, well that's north. Like, you know, I came from that direction. That's south. That's where I'm going. If you take a train or get in a car, unless you're really paying attention, you are kind of catapulted into the middle of this city without any concept of what direction you're going in next.And I didn't realize how disorienting that is because we're so used to it. We do it all the time. And this was only a kind of shadow of what was to come at the very end of my journey, cuz I got to Istanbul after seven and a half months. I was in a very weird place that I've only kind of realized since all that time walking.And I stayed a couple of weeks in Turkey and then I flew home again, partly cuz I had a very patient and tolerant and forgiving girlfriend who I couldn't kind of stretch it out any, any longer. And initially I think I'd been planning to come back on like hitchhiking or buses and trains. But in the end I was like, "you know, whatever, I'll just spend a couple days more in Turkey, then I'll get on a plane."And I think it was something like three hours flying from Istanbul and three hours crossing a continent that you spent seven and a half months walking. And I was looking down and seeing the Carpathian mountains and the Alps and these kind of shapes of these rivers, some of which I recognized as places I'd walked through.And again, this sense of what am I missing, that would've been an extraordinary journey going through that landscape. Coming back. You mentioned pilgrimage earlier, and someone told me once, who was doing lots of work around pilgrimage that, you know, in the old days when people had to walk or take a horse, if you were rich, say you started in England, your destination was Constantinople or Jerusalem or Rome, that Jerusalem or Rome wasn't the end of your journey.That was the exact halfway point, because when you got there, you had to walk back again. And on the way out, you'd go with your questions and your openness about whatever this journey meant to you. And then on the way back, you would be slowly at the pace of walking, trying to incorporate what you'd learnt and what you'd experienced into your everyday life of your village, your family, your community, you know, your land.So by the time you got back, you'd had all of that time to process what happened. So I think with that walk, you know, I, I did half the pilgrimage thinking I'd done all of it, and then was plunged back into, actually went straight back to the life I'd been living before in, in London as if nothing had ever happened.And I think for the year after that walk, my soul hadn't caught up with my body by any means. Mm-hmm. I was kind of living this strange sort of half life that felt very familiar because I recognized everything, but I felt like a very different person, to be honest and it took a long time to actually process that.But I think if I'd, even if I'd come back by, you know, public transport of some sort it would've helped just soften the blow. [00:25:04] Chris Christou: What a context to put it in, softening the blow. Hmm. It reminds me of the etymology of travel as far as I've read is that it used to mean an arduous journey.And that the arduous was the key descriptor in that movement. It reminds me of, again, so many of my travels in my twenties that were just flash flashes of movement on flights and buses. And that I got back to Canada. And the first thing was, okay, well I'm outta money, so I need to get back to work and I need to make as much money as possible.And there just wasn't enough time. And there wasn't perhaps time, period, in order to integrate what rolled out in front of me over those trips. And I'm reminded of a story that David Abram tells in his book Becoming Animal about jet lag. And perhaps a hypothesis that he has around jet lag and that we kind of flippantly use the excuse or context of time zones to explain this relative sense of being in two places at once.To what extent he discussed this, I don't remember very well, but just this understanding of when we had moved over vast distances on foot in the past, that we would've inevitably been open and apt to the emerging geographies languages, foods even cultures as we arrive in new places, and that those things would've rolled out very slowly in front of us, perhaps in the context of language heavily.But in terms of geography, I imagine very slowly, and that there would've been a kind of manner of integration, perhaps, for lack of a better word in which our bodies, our sensing bodies, would've had the ability to confront and contend with those things little by little as we moved. And it also reminds me of this book Rebecca Solnit's R iver of Shadows, where she talks about Edward Muybridge and the invention of the steam engine and the train and train travel.And how similarly to when people first got a glimpse of the big screen cinema that there was a lot of bodily issues. People sometimes would get very nauseous or pass out or have to leave the theater because their bodies weren't used to what was in front of them.And in, on the train, there were similar instances where for the first time at least, you know, as we can imagine historically people could not see the foreground looking out the train window. They could only see the background because the foreground was just flashing by so quickly.Wow, that's interesting. Interesting. And that we've become so used to this. And it's a really beautiful metaphor to, to wonder about what has it done to a people that can no longer see what's right there in front of them in terms of not just the politics, in their place, but the, their home itself, their neighbors, the geography, et cetera.And so I'm yet to read that book in mention, but I'm really looking forward to it because it's given me a lot of inspiration to consider a kind of pilgrimage to the places where my old ones are from there in, in southeastern Europe and also in Southwestern England.[00:28:44] Nick Hunt: Hmm.Yeah. That is a, so I'm still thinking about that metaphor of the train. Yeah. You don't think of that People wouldn't have had that experience of seeing the foreground disappear. And just looking at the distance, that's deeply strange and inhuman experience, isn't it? Hmm.[00:29:07] Chris Christou: Certainly. And, you know, speaking of these, these long pilgrimages and travels, my grandparents made their way from, as I mentioned, southwestern England later Eastern Africa and, and southeastern Europe to Canada in the fifties and sixties. And the peasant side of my family from what today is northern Greece, Southern Macedonia, brought a lot of their old time hospitality with them.And it's something that has always been this beautiful clue and key to these investigations around travel and exile. And so, you know, In terms of this old time hospitality, in preparing for this interview, I was reminded of a story that Ivan Illich once spoke of, or at least once, wrote about of a Jesuit monk living in China who took up a pilgrimage from Peking to Rome just before World War II, perhaps not unlike Patrick Leigh Fermor. Mm-hmm. And Illich recalled the story in his book, Rivers North of the Future as follows. He wrote, quote, "at first it was quite easy, he said (the Jesuit said,) in China, he only had to identify himself as a pilgrim, someone whose walk was oriented to a sacred place and he was given food, a handout, and a place to sleep.This changed a little bit when he entered the territory of Orthodox Christianity. There, they told him to go to the parish house where a place was free or to the priest's house. Then he got to Poland, the first Catholic country, and he found that the Polish Catholics generously gave him money to put himself up in a cheap hotel.And so the Jesuit was recalling the types of local hospitality he received along his path, which we could say diminished the further he went. Now, I'd love it if you could speak perhaps about the kinds of hospitality or, or perhaps the lack there of you experienced on your pilgrimage from the northwest of Europe to the southeast of Europe.And what, if anything, surprised you? [00:31:26] Nick Hunt: Well, that was one of my main interests really, was to see if the extraordinary hospitality that my predecessor had experienced in the 1930s where he'd been accommodated everywhere from, peasants' barns to the castles of Hungarian aristocrats and everything in between. I wanted to see if that generosity still existed. And talking about different ways of offering hospitality when he did his walk, one of the fairly reliable backstops he had was going to a police officer and saying "I'm a student. I'm a traveling student." That was the kind of equivalent to the pilgrim ticket in his day in a lot of parts of Europe. "I'm a student and I'm going from one place to the next," and he would be given a bed in the local police station. You know, they'd open up a cell, sleep there for the night, and then he'd leave in the morning. And I think it sometimes traditionally included like a mug of beer and some bread or soup or something, but even by his time in the thirties, it was a fairly well established thing to ask, I dunno how many people were doing it, but he certainly met in Germany, a student who was on the road going to university and the way he was going was walking for days or weeks.That wasn't there when I did my work. I don't think I ever asked a policeman, but in a couple of German towns, I went to the town hall. You know, the sort of local authority in Germany. They have a lot of authority and power in the community. And I asked a sort of bemused receptionist if I could claim this kind of ancient tradition of hospitality and spend the night in a police station, and they had no idea what I was talking about.Wow. And I think someone in a kind of large village said, "well, that's a nice idea, but I can't do that because we've got a tourist industry and all the guest house owners, you know, they wouldn't be happy if we started offering accommodation for free. It would put them out of business." Wow. And I didn't pay for accommodation much, but I did end up shelling out, you know, 30, 40 euros and sleeping in a, B&B.But having said that, the hospitality has taken on different forms. I started this journey in winter, which was the, when Patrick Leigh Fermor started, in December. So, I kind of wanted to start on the same date to have a similar experience, but it did mean walking through the coldest part of Europe, you know, Germany and Austria in deep snow and arriving in Bulgaria and Turkey when it was mid-summer.So I went from very cold to very hot. And partly for this reason, I was nervous about the beginning, not knowing what this experience was gonna be like. So, I used the couch surfing website, which I think Airbnb these days has probably kind of undercut a lot of it, but it was a free, very informal thing where people would provide a bed or a mattress or a place on the floor, a sofa for people passing through.And I was in the south of Germany before I ran out of couch surfing stops. But I also supplemented that with sleeping out. I slept in some ruined castles on the way. Hmm. I slept in these wooden hunting towers that no hunters were in. It wasn't the season. But they were freezing, but they were dry, you know, and they gave shelter.But I found that the language of hospitality shifted the further I went. In Holland, Germany, and Austria, people were perfectly, perfectly hospitable and perfectly nice and would put me up. But they'd say, when do you have to leave? You know, which is a perfectly reasonable question and normally it was first saying the next morning.And I noticed when I got to Eastern Europe, the question had shifted from when do you want to leave to how long can you stay? And that's when there was always in Hungary and then in Romania in particular and Bulgaria, people were kind of finding excuses to keep me longer. There would be, you know, it's my granddad's birthday, we're gonna bake him a cake and have a party, or we're going on a picnic, or we're going to the mountains, or we're going to our grandmother's house in the countryside. You should see that.And so my stays did get longer, the further southeast I got, partly cuz it was summer and everybody's in a good mood and they're doing things outdoors and they're traveling a bit more. But yeah, I mean the hospitality did shift and I got passed along as Patrick Leigh Fermor had done. So someone would say, you're going this way.They look at my map, you're going through this town. I've got a cousin, or I know a school teacher. Maybe you can sleep in the school and give a talk to the students the next day. So, all of these things happened and I kind of got accommodated in a greater variety of places, a nunnery where I was fed until I'd hardly move, by these nuns, just plain, homemade food and rakia and wine. And I stayed at a short stay in a psychiatric hospital in France, Sylvania. Talking of the changes that have happened to Europe, when Patrick Leigh Fermor stayed there it was a country house owned by a Hungarian count. His assets had since been liquidated, you know, his family dispossessed in this huge building given to the Romanian State to use as a hospital, and it was still being run that way.But the family had kind of made contact, again, having kept their heads down under communism, but realized they had no use for a huge mansion with extensive grounds. There was no way they could fill it or maintain it. And so it was continued to be used as a hospital, but they had a room where they were able to stay when they passed through.So I spent a few nights there. So everything slowed down was my experience, the further southeast I got. And going back actually to one of your first questions about, why walk? And what do you notice from walking? One of the things you really notice is the incremental changes by which, culture changes as well as landscape.You see the crossovers. You see that people in this part of Holland are a bit like this people in this part of Germany over the border. You know, borders kind of matter less because you see one culture merging into another. Languages and accents changing. And sometimes those changes are quite abrupt, but often they're all quite organic and the food changes, the beer changes, the wine changes, the local cheese or delicacies change.And so that was one of the great pleasures of it was just kind of understanding these many different cultures in Europe as part of a continuum rather than these kind of separate entities that just happen to be next door to each other. [00:38:50] Chris Christou: Right. That's so often constructed in the western imagination through borders, through state borders.[00:38:58] Nick Hunt: Just talking of borders, they've only become harder, well for everyone in the places I walk through. And I do wonder what it would be like making this journey today after Brexit. I wouldn't be able to do it just quite simply. It's no longer possible for a British person to spend more than three months in the EU, as a visitor, as a tourist.So I think I could have walked to possibly Salzburg or possibly Vienna, and then had to come back and wait three months before continuing the journey. So I was lucky, you know, I was lucky to do it in the time I did. Mm-hmm. [00:39:38] Chris Christou: Mm-hmm. I'm very much reminded through these stories and your reflections of this essay that Ivan Illich wrote towards the end of his life called "Hospitality and Pain."And you know, I highly, highly recommend it for anyone who's curious about how hospitality has changed, has been commodified and co-opted over the centuries, over the millennia. You know, he talks very briefly, but very in depth about how the church essentially took over that role for local people, that in the Abrahamic worldview that there was generally a rule that you could and should be offering three days and nights of sanctuary to the stranger for anyone who'd come passing by and in part because in the Christian world in another religious worldviews that the stranger could very well be a God in disguise, the divine coming to your doorstep. We're talking of course, about the fourth and fifth centuries.About how the church ended up saying, no, no, no, don't worry, don't worry. We got this. You, you guys, the people in the village, you don't have to do this anymore. They can come to the church and we'll give them hospitality. And of course, you know, there's the hidden cost, which is the, the attempt at conversion, I'm sure.Yeah. But that later on the church instituted hospitals, that word that comes directly from hospitality as these places where people could stay, hospitals and later hostels and hotels and in Spanish, hospedaje and that by Patrick Lee firm's time we're talking about police stations.Right. and then, you know, in your time to some degree asylums. It also reminded me of that kind of rule, for lack of a better word of the willingness or duty of people to offer three days and nights to the stranger.And that when the stranger came upon the doorstep of a local person, that the local person could not ask them what they were doing there until they had eaten and often until they had slept a full night. But it's interesting, I mean, I, I don't know how far deep we can go with this, but the rule of this notion, as you were kind of saying, how the relative degree of hospitality shifted from [00:42:01] Nick Hunt: when do you have to leave to how long how long can you stay? [00:42:05] Chris Christou: Right. Right. That Within that kind of three day structure or rule that there was also this, this notion that it wasn't just in instituted or implemented or suggested as a way of putting limits on allowing a sense of agency or autonomy for the people who are hosting, but also limiting their hospitality.Kind of putting this, this notion on the table that you might want to offer a hundred days of hospitality, but you're not allowed. Right. And what and where that would come from and why that there would be this necessity within the culture or cultures to actually limit someone's want to serve the stranger.[00:42:54] Nick Hunt: Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder where that came from. I mean, three is always a bit of a magic number, isn't it? Mm-hmm. But yeah, it sounds like that maybe comes from an impulse from both sides somehow. [00:43:09] Chris Christou: Mm-hmm. Nick, I'd like to come back to this question of learning and learning with the other of, of interculturality and tourism. And I'd like to return to your essay, Bulls and Scars, momentarily with this excerpt. And it absolutely deserves the title of being one of the best travel writing pieces of the 21st century. And so in that essay you write, "if we stay within our horizons surrounded by people who are the same as us, it precludes all hope. We shut off any possibility of having our automatic beliefs, whether good or bad, right or wrong, smashed so their rubble can make new shapes. We will never be forced to understand that there are different ways to be human, different ways to be ourselves, and we desperately need that knowledge, even if we don't know it yet."Hmm. And now I don't disagree at all. I think we are desperately in need of deeper understandings of what it means to be human and what it means to be human together. The argument will continue to arise, however, at what cost? How might we measure the extent of our presence in foreign places and among foreign people, assuming that such a thing is even possible.[00:44:32] Nick Hunt: Yeah, that's a question that's at the heart of that essay, which I don't think we've said is set in the South Omo Valley in Ethiopia. And part of it is about this phenomenon of tribal safaris, you know, which is as gross as it sounds, and it's rich western people driving in fleets of four by fours to indigenous tribal villages and, you know, taking pictures and watching a dance and then going to the next village.And the examples of this that I saw when I was there, I said, when I said in the essay, you couldn't invent a better parody of tourists. It was almost unbelievable. It was all of the obnoxious stereotypes about the very worst kind of tourists behaving in the very worst possible way, seemingly just no self reflection whatsoever, which was disheartening.And that's an extreme example and it's easy to parody because it was so extreme. But I guess what maybe you're asking more is what about the other people? What about those of us who do famously think of ourselves as as travelers rather than tourists? There's always that distinction I certainly made when I was doing it in my twenties.So I'm not a tourist, I'm a traveler. It's like a rich westerner saying that they're an "expat" rather than an immigrant when they go and live in a foreign country that's normally cheaper than where they came from. Yeah, that's a question again, like the great secret, I don't think I answer in that essay.What I did discover was that, it was much more nuanced than I thought it was originally. Certainly on a surface, looking at the scenes that I saw, what I saw as people who were completely out of their depth, out of their world, out of their landscape, looking like idiots and being mocked fairly openly by these tribal people who they were, in my view, exploiting. They didn't look like they were better off in a lot of ways, even though they had the, thousand dollars cameras and all the expensive clothes and the vehicles and the money and obviously had a certain amount of power cuz they were the ones shelling out money and kind of getting what they wanted.But it wasn't as clear cut as I thought. And I know that's only a kind of anecdote. It's not anything like a study of how people going to remote communities, the damage they do and the impact they have. I've got another another example maybe, or something that I've been working on more recently, which comes from a journey that I haven't not written anything about it yet.But in March of this year, I was in Columbia and Northern Columbia. The first time for a long time that I've, gone so far. All of my work has been sort of around Europe, been taking trains. I mean, I got on a plane and left my soul behind in lots of ways, got to Columbia and there were various reasons for my going, but one of the interests I had was I had a contact who'd worked with the Kogi people who live in the Sierra Nevada des Santa Marta Mountains on the Caribbean coast.An extraordinary place, an extraordinary people who have really been isolated at their own instigation, since the Spanish came, and survived the conquest with a culture and religion and economy, really more or less intact, just by quietly retreating up the mountain and not really making a lot of fuss for hundreds of years, so effectively that until the 1960s, outsiders didn't really know they were there. And since then there has been contact made from what I learned really by the Kogi rather than the other way around. Or they realized that they couldn't remain up there isolated forever.Maybe now because people were starting to encroach upon the land and settle and cut down forests. And there was obviously decades of warfare and conflict and drug trafficking and a very dangerous world they saw outside the mountains. And this journey was very paradoxical and strange and difficult because they do not want people to visit them.You know, they're very clear about that. They made a couple of documentary films or collaborated in a couple of documentary films in the late nineties and sort of early two thousands where they sent this message to the world about telling the younger brothers as they call us, where they're going wrong, where we are going wrong, all the damage we're doing.And then after that film, it was really, that's it. "We don't wanna communicate with you anymore. We've said what we have to say, leave us alone." You know, "we're fine. We'll get on with it." But they, the contact I had I arranged to meet a sort of spokesman for this community, for this tribe in Santa Marta.Kind of like an, a sort of indigenous embassy in a way. And he was a real intermediary between these two worlds. He was dressed in traditional clothes, lived in the mountains but came down to work in this city and was as conversant with that tribal and spiritual life as he was with a smartphone and a laptop.So he was really this kind of very interesting bridge character who was maintaining a balance, which really must have been very difficult between these two entirely different worldviews and systems. And in a series of conversations with him and with his brother, who also acts as a spokesman, I was able to talk to them about the culture and about the life that was up there, or the knowledge they wanted to share with me.And when it came time for me to ask without really thinking that it would work, could I have permission to go into the Sierra any further because I know that, you know, academics and anthropologists have been welcomed there in the past. And it was, it was actually great. It was a wonderful relief to be told politely, but firmly, no.Hmm. No. Mm. You know, it's been nice meeting you. If you wanted to go further into the mountains. You could write a, a detailed proposal, and I thought this was very interesting. They said you'd need to explain what knowledge you are seeking to gain, what you're going to do with that knowledge and who you will share that knowledge with.Like, what do you want to know? And then we would consider that, the elders, the priests, the mammos would consider that up in the mountains. And you might get an answer, but it might take weeks. It could take months because everything's very, very slow, you know? and you probably wouldn't be their priority.Right. And so I didn't get to the Sierra, and I'm writing a piece now about not getting to the place where you kind of dream of going, because, to be completely honest, and I know how, how kind of naive and possibly colonial, I sound by saying this, but I think it's important to recognize part of that idea of finding the great secret.Of course, I wanted to go to this place where a few Westerners had been and meet people who are presented or present themselves as having deep, ecological, ancestral spiritual knowledge, that they know how to live in better harmony with the earth. You know, whether that's true or not, that in itself is a simplified, probably naive view, but that's the kind of main story of these people.Why wouldn't I want to meet them? You know, just the thought that not 50 miles away from this bustling, polluted city, there's a mountain range. It's one of the most biodiverse places on the planet that has people who have kept knowledge against all odds, have kept knowledge for 500 years and have not been conquered and have not been wiped out, and have not given in.You know, obviously I wanted to go there, but it was wonderful to know that I couldn't because I'm not welcome. Mm. And so I'm in the middle of writing a piece that's a, it's a kind of non-travel piece. It's an anti travel piece or a piece examining, critically examining that, that on edge within myself to know what's around the next corner.To look over the horizon to get to the top of the mountain, you know, and, and, and explore and discover all of that stuff. But recognizing that, it is teasing out which parts of that are a genuine and healthy human curiosity. And a genuine love of experiencing new things and meeting new people and learning new things and what's more of a colonial, "I want to discover this place, record what I find and take knowledge out."And that was one thing that I found very interestingly. They spoke very explicitly about seeking knowledge as a form of extraction. For hundreds of years they've had westerners extracting the obvious stuff, the coal, the gold, the oil, the timber, all the material goods. While indigenous knowledge was discounted as completely useless.And now people are going there looking for this knowledge. And so for very understandable reasons, these people are highly suspicious of these people turning up, wanting to know things. What will you do with the knowledge? Why do you want this knowledge? And they spoke about knowledge being removed in the past, unscrupulously taken from its proper owners, which is a form of theft.So, yeah, talking about is appropriate to be talking about this on the end of tourism podcast. Cause yeah, it's very much a journey that wasn't a journey not hacking away through the jungle with the machete, not getting the top of the mountain, you know, not seeing the things that no one else has seen.Wow. And that being a good thing. [00:54:59] Chris Christou: Yeah. It brings me back to that question of why would either within a culture or from some kind of authoritative part of it, why would a people place limits to protect themselves in regards to those three days of allowing people to stay?Right. And not for longer. Yes. [00:55:20] Nick Hunt: Yeah, that's very true. Mm-hmm. Because people change, the people that come do change things. They change your world in ways big and small, good and bad. [00:55:31] Chris Christou: You know, I had a maybe not a similar experience, but I was actually in the Sierra Nevadas maybe 12 years ago now, and doing a backpacking trip with an ex-girlfriend there.And the Columbian government had opened a certain part of the Sierra Nevadas for ecotourism just a few years earlier. And I'm sure it's still very much open and available in those terms. And it was more or less a a six day hike. And because this is an area as well where there were previous civilizations living there, so ruins as well.And so that that trip is a guided trek. So you would go with a local guide who is not just certified as a tour guide, but also a part of the government program. And you would hike three days and hike back three days. And there was one lunch where there was a Kogi man and his son also dressed in traditional clothing. And for our listeners, from what I understand anyways, there are certain degrees of inclusion in Kogi society. So the higher up the mountain you go, the more exclusive it is in terms of foreigners are not allowed in, in certain places.And then the lower down the mountain and you go, there are some places where there are Kogi settlements, but they are now intermingling with for example, these tourists groups. And so that lunch was an opportunity for this Kogi man to explain a little bit about his culture, the history there and of course the geography.And as we were arriving to that little lunch outpost his son was there maybe 10, 15 feet away, a few meters away. And we kind of locked eyes and I had these, very western plastic sunglasses on my head. And the Kogi boy, again, dressed in traditional clothing, he couldn't speak any English and couldn't speak any Spanish from what I could tell.And so his manner of communicating was with his hands. And he subtly but somewhat relentlessly was pointing at my sunglasses. And I didn't know what to do, of course. And he wanted my sunglasses. And there's this, this moment, and in that moment so much can come to pass.But of course afterwards there was so much reflection to be taken in regards to, if I gave him my sunglasses, what would be the consequence of that, that simple action rolling out over the course of time in that place. And does it even matter that I didn't give him my sunglasses, that I just showed up there and had this shiny object that, that perhaps also had its consequence rolling out over the course of this young man's life because, I was one of 10 or 12 people that day in that moment to pass by.But there were countless other groups. I mean, the outposts that we slept in held like a hundred people at a time. Oh, wow. And so we would, we would pass people who were coming down from the mountain and that same trek or trip and you know, so there was probably, I would say close to a hundred people per day passing there.Right. And what that consequence would look like rolling out over the course of, of his life. [00:59:11] Nick Hunt: Yeah. You could almost follow the story of a pair of plastic sunglasses as they drop into a community and have sort of unknown consequences or, or not. But you don't know, do you? Yeah. Yeah. I'm, it was fascinating knowing that you've been to the same, that same area as well. Appreciated that. What's, what's your, what's your last question? Hmm. [00:59:34] Chris Christou: Well, it has to do with with the end of tourism, surprisingly.And so one last time, coming back to your essay, Bulls and Scars, you write, " a friend of mine refuses to travel to countries poor than his own. Not because he is scared of robbery or disease, but because the inequality implicit in every human exchange induces a squirming, awkwardness and corrosive sense of guilt.For him, the power disparity overshadows everything. Every conversation, every handshake, every smile and gesture. He would rather not travel than be in that situation." And you say, "I have always argued against this view because the see all human interactions as a function of economics means accepting capitalism in its totality, denying that people are driven by forces other than power and greed, excluding the possibility of there being anything else.The grotesque display of these photographic trophy hunters makes me think of him now." Now I've received a good amount of writing and messages from people speaking of their consternation and guilt in terms of "do I travel, do I not travel? What are the consequences?" Et cetera. In one of the first episodes of the podcast with Stephen Jenkinson, he declared that we have to find a way of being in the world that isn't guilt delivered or escapist, which I think bears an affinity to what you've written.Hmm. Finally, you wrote that your friend's perspective excludes "the possibility of there being anything else." Now I relentlessly return on the pod to the understanding that we live in a time in which our imaginations, our capacity to dream the world anew, is constantly under attack, if not ignored altogether.My question, this last question for you, Nick, is what does the possibility of anything else look like for you?[01:01:44] Nick Hunt: I think in a way I come back to that idea of being told we can't give you free accommodation here because, what about the tourist industry? And I think that it's become, you know, everything has become monetized and I get the, you know, the fact that that money does rule the world in lots of ways.And I'd be a huge hypocrite if I'd said that money wasn't deeply important to me. As much as I like to think it, much as I want to wish it away, it's obviously something that dictates a very large amount of what I do with my life, what I do with my time. But that everything else, well, it's some, it's friendship and hospitality and openness I think.It's learning and it's genuine exchange, not exchange, not of money and goods and services, but an actual human interaction for the pleasure and the curiosity of it. Those sound like very simple answers and I guess they are, but that is what I feel gets excluded when everything is just seen as a byproduct of economics.And that friend who, you know, I talked about then, I understand. I've had the experience as I'm sure you have of the kind of meeting someone often in a culture or community that is a lot poorer, who is kind, friendly, hospitable, helpful, and this nagging feeling of like, When does the money question come?Mm-hmm. And sometimes it doesn't, but often it does. And sometimes it's fine that it does. But it's difficult to kind of place yourself in this, I think, because it does instantly bring up all this kind of very useless western guilt that, you know, Steven Jenkinson talked about. It's not good to go through the world feeling guilty and suspicious of people, you know. 'When am I gonna be asked for money?' Is a terrible way of interacting with anyone to have that at the back of your, your mind.And I've been in situations where I've said can I give you some money? And people have been quite offended or thought it was ridiculous or laughed at me. So, it's very hard to get right. But like I say, it's a bad way of being in the world, thinking that the worst of people in that they're always, there's always some economic motive for exchange.And it does seem to be a kind of victory of capitalism in that we do think that all the time, you know, but what does this cost? What's the price? What's the price of this friendliness that I'm receiving? The interesting thing about it, I think, it is quite corrosive on both sites because things are neither offered nor received freely.If there's always this question of what's this worth economically. But I like that framing. What was it that Steven Jenkinson said? It was guilt on one side and what was the other side of the pole? [01:05:07] Chris Christou: Yeah. Neither guilt delivered or escapist. [01:05:11] Nick Hunt: Yeah. That's really interesting. Guilt and escapism. Because that is the other side, isn't it?Is that often traveling is this escape? And I think we can both relate to it. We both experience that as a very simple, it can be a very simple form of therapy or it seems simple that you just keep going and keep traveling and you run away from things. And also that isn't a helpful way of being in the world either, although it feels great, at the time for parts of your life when you do that.But what is the space between guilt and escapism? I think it really, the main thing for me, and again, this is a kind of, it sounds like a, just a terrible cliche, but I guess there's a often things do is I do think if you go and if you travel. And also if you stay at home with as open a mind as you can it does seem to kind of shape the way the world works.It shapes the way people interact with you, the way you interact with people. And just always keeping in mind the possibility that that things encounters, exchanges, will turn out for the best rather than the worst. Mm-hmm. You develop a slight sixth sense I think when traveling where you often have to make very quick decisions about people.You know, do I trust this person? Do I not trust this person? And you're not aware you're doing it, but obviously you can get it wrong. But not allowing that to always become this kind of suspicion of "what does this person want from me?" Hmm. I feel like I've just delivered a lot of sort of platitudes and cliches at the end of this talk.Just be nice, be, be open. Try to be respectful. Do no harm, also don't be wracked with guilt every exchange, because who wants to meet you if you are walking around, ringing your hands and kind of punching yourself in the face. Another important part of being a traveler is being a good traveler.Being somebody who people want coming to their community, village, town, city and benefit from that exchange as well. It's not just about you bringing something back. There's the art of being a good guest, which Patrick Leigh Fermor, to come back to him, was a master at. He would speak three or four different languages, know classical Greek poetry, be able to talk about any subject.Dance on the table, you know, drink all night. He was that kind of guest. He was the guest that people wanted to have around and have fun with mostly, or that's the way he presented himself, certainly. In the same way, you can be a good, same way, you can be a good host, you can be a good guest, and you can be a good traveler in terms of what you, what you bring, what you give.[01:08:20] Chris Christou: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think what it comes down to is that relationship and that hospitality that has for, at least for people in Europe and, and the UK and and Western people, descendants, culturally, is that when we look at, for example, what Illich kind of whispered towards, how these traditions have been robbed of us.And when you talk about other cliches and platitudes and this and that, that, we feel the need to not let them fall by the wayside, in part because we're so impoverished by the lack of them in our times. And so, I think, that's where we might be able to find something of an answer, is in that relationship of hospitality that, still exists in the world, thankfully in little corners.And, and those corners can also be found in the places that we live in.[01:09:21] Nick Hunt: I think it exists that desire for hospitality because it's a very deep human need. When I was a kid, I, I was always, for some reason I would hate receiving presents.There was something about the weight of expectation and I would always find it very difficult to receive presents and would rather not be given a lot of stuff to do with various complex family dynamics. But it really helped when someone said, you know, when someone gives you a present, it's not just for you, it's also for them. You know, they're doing it cuz they want to and to have a present refused is not a nice thing to do.It, it, that doesn't feel good for the person doing it. Their need is kind of being thrown back at them. And I think it's like that with hospitality as well. We kind of often frame it as the person receiving the hospitality has all the good stuff and the host is just kind of giving, giving, giving, but actually the host is, is getting a lot back. And that's often why they do it. It's like those people wanting, people to stay for three days is not just an act of kindness and selflessness. It's also, it feeds them and benefits them and improves their life. I think that's a really important thing to remember with the concept of hospitality and hosting.[01:10:49] Chris Christou: May we all be able to be fed in that way. Thank you so much, Nick, on behalf of our listeners for joining us today and I feel like we've started to unpack so much and there's so much more to consider and to wrestle with. But perhaps there'll be another opportunity someday.[01:11:06] Nick Hunt: Yeah, I hope so. Thank you, Chris. It was great speaking to you. [01:11:12] Chris Christou: Likewise, Nick. Before we finish off, I'd just like to ask, you know, on behalf of our listeners as well how might people be able to read and, and purchase your writing and your books? How might they be able to find you and follow you online?[01:11:26] Nick Hunt: So if you just look up my, my name Nick Hunt. My book should, should come up. I have a website. Nick hunt scrutiny.com. I have a, a book, a novel actually out in July next month, 6th of July called "Red Smoking Mirror."So that's the thing that I will be kind of focusing on for the next bit of time. You can also find me as Chris and I met each other through the Dark Mountain Project, which is a loose network of writers and artists and thinkers who are concerned with the times we're in and how to be human in times of crisis and collapse and change.So you can find me through any of those routes. Hmm. [01:12:17] Chris Christou: Beautiful. Well, I'll make sure that all those links are on the homework section on the end of tourism podcast when it launches. And this episode will be released after the release of your new, your book, your first novel. So, listeners will be able to find it then as well.[01:12:34] Nick Hunt: It will be in local shops. Independent bookshops are the best. [01:12:40] Chris Christou: Once again, thank you, Nick, for your time. [01:12:42] Nick Hunt: Thank you. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

I'm thrilled to present to you an incredible episode delving deep into the often uncharted topic of death, our fears surrounding it, and the realm of palliative care with the wise and insightful Stephen Jenkinson. As the author of profound books such as "Die Wise" and "Come of Age," Stephen has transformed our understanding of mortality and the societal roles of elders. We discuss the chances he took in institutional hospital settings and how our western culture has diverted from age-old practices surrounding death. Through our conversation, you'll realize the importance of reconnecting with our roots and gaining a more profound respect for the natural cycle of life. We also delve into some unsettling trends seen in today's society, such as our tendency to remove ourselves from ancestral traditions to form an identity while disconnecting from our heritage. We discuss the concept of elderhood, its vital cultural function, and the loss it has suffered in our modern culture. Stephen also sheds light on the fears of aging and dying and how understanding life's limitations can lead us to better self-improvement. Swimming to the deep end, this episode ventures into the controversial topic of euthanasia's legalization in Canada, examines the impacts of a death-phobic culture, and contemplates suffering and pain as essential parts of our life and death narratives.  DISCLAIMER: This podcast is presented for educational and exploratory purposes only. Published content is not intended to be used for diagnosing or treating any illness. Those responsible for this show disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information presented by Luke or his guests. Please consult with your healthcare provider before using any products referenced. This podcast may contain paid endorsements for products or services. 00:01:58 — (Re)introducing: Death, Phobias & Palliative Care • Ancestral Amnesia & the Village Mind - Stephen Jenkinson #151 • Read: Die Wise by Stephen Jenkinson • How Stephen's path led him to palliative care • Overcoming institutional limitations around death and birth • Taking chances in institutional hospital settings • How the West diverted from historical practices around death 00:11:25 — Inheriting a Ghost Culture and Reconnecting With Our Elders • Pillaging other ancestral traditions to find a sense of identity • Disconnecting from one's own heritage  • Elderhood as a cultural function • The loss of respect for elders in modern society • Read: Come of Age by Stephen Jenkinson • A conversation in Oaxaca City about elderhood • Brief observation around the phobia of aging and dying • Who goes into self improvement to obey the limits of life? • Understanding the limits that have been entrusted in you 00:33:09 — Legalization of Euthanasia in Canada & Dying in the Manner of One's Living • How a death phobic culture masks euthanasia as “Maid Medical Assistance in Dying” • English language has no passive voice for our relationship with God • Anticipatory grief, understanding the verb "to die"  • Finding a way to say goodbye while you still can • Medication as an end-of-life value vs. end-of-life presence • Remembering Aldous Huxley's death involving an LSD journey • Why suffering and pain belong in matters of life and death  • Three teachers that have impacted Stephen's work More about this episode. Watch on YouTube. THIS SHOW IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY: QUANTUM UPGRADE. Block harmful EMF with Quantum Upgrade's products. Their products stabilize the energy fields around you and work in the home, at the office, and even in your car. Get a 15 day free trial with code 'LUKE15' atquantumupgrade.io. AND… BIOPTIMIZERS - the makers of Masszymes - are offering a challenge. This month only, get a FREE bottle of this best selling 100% plant-based, naturally-derived digestive enzymes - try and see all of the positive changes of enhanced digestion and nutrient absorption. All you have to do is pay a nominal shipping fee. That's it! Do not miss the opportunity, it is a limited time offer this month only. Get your free bottle at masszymes.com/lukefree with code LUKE10. AND… SILVER BIOTICS. Experience the healing power of Silver Biotics! Their advanced & patented technology can help support your immune system and promote overall wellness. Try it today and see the difference for yourself! Get 30% off when you go to silverbiotics.com and use code LUKE at checkout. AND… ALITURA NATURALS. Your skin is the largest organ and it needs to be treated like another mouth. If you're as careful about what you put on your skin as you are about feeding your body, then you've got to check out my good friend and previous podcast guest's skincare line, Alitura Naturals. Alitura was created out of desperation after it's founder, model, and actor, Andy Hnilo, found his face unrecognizable after getting hit and run over by two cars. Alitura, latin for ‘feeding and nourishing,' was created out if a small studio apartment, purely out of necessity to heal Andy's scarring and abrasions. Carefully sourced with research proven ingredients containing natural, organic, nutrient-rich ingredients that feed and nourish your skin, so you can look as vibrant as you feel. And as a special gift for my listeners, use code “LIFESTYLIST” for 20% off and FREE SHIPPING in the US on your order at alituranaturals.com. Resources: • Website: orphanwisdom.com • Read: Die Wise by Stephen Jenkinson • Read: Come of Age by Stephen Jenkinson • Read: Reckoning by Stephen Jenkinson and Kimberly Ann Johnson • Instagram: @griefandmystery • Facebook: Orphan Wisdom • The Nights of Grief & Mystery 2023: orphanwisdom.com/nights-of-grief-and-mystery  • Are you ready to block harmful blue light, and look great at the same time? Check out Gilded By Luke Storey. Where fashion meets function: gildedbylukestorey.com • Join me on Telegram for the uncensored content big tech won't allow me to post. It's free speech and free content: www.lukestorey.com/telegram Related: • The Holistic OBGYN on Conscious Birth & Death Practices & Traditions w/ Dr. Nathan Riley #421 • Somatic Experiencing, Birth, Sex, & Trauma W/ Kimberly Ann Johnson #362 The Life Stylist is produced by Crate Media.

Episode 86 or Episode 5 of Season 2 Guest: Rev. Stuart Higginbotham, Episcopal Priest serving Grace Episcopal Church in Gainsville, Georgia. http://www.gracechurchgainesville.org. Full Bio below   Author of The Heart of a Calling     News Commend to you the work of Dr. Martin Shaw. Martin is a storyteller and author. https://drmartinshaw.com Stephen Jenkinson. He is a former Hospice and Palliative Care director in Toronto, Canada. Grief & Mystery. https://orphanwisdom.com Dr. Fanny Brewster has a new book out titled Race and the Unconscious: An Africanist Depth Psychology Perspective on Dreaming  August 4, 2023 Book Launch https://www.pacifica.edu/pacifica-news/dr-fanny-brewster-book-launch/ Personal Updates On Wednesday evening, September 13, I'll be joined by local musician Mike Bussey for an evening called “Songs and Stories of Weird Wisdom.” Cross Mills Library in Charlestown, Rhode Island. Write me at jim@jameshazelwood.net My Weekly Newsletter with an Essay on Mysticism and Psychology https://jameshazelwood.substack.com/   Poem by William Stafford The Way it Is There's a thread you follow. It goes among things that change. But it doesn't change. People wonder about what you are pursuing. You have to explain about the thread. But it is hard for others to see. While you hold it you can't get lost. Tragedies happen; people get hurt or die; and you suffer and get old. Nothing you do can stop time's unfolding. You don't ever let go of the thread.     Stuart's Bio I began my cure as rector of Grace in early January 2014, after serving as Senior Associate at St. Benedict's in Smyrna, Georgia, for over five years. Working with the entire leadership team at Grace, I have a particular passion for the intersection of contemplative practices and congregational development. Grace is an extraordinary community of nearly one thousand souls, and I feel blessed to live and pray among them as we prepare to celebrate our Bicentennial in 2028. I also serve as Assistant Professor in the Practice of Spiritual Formation and Ministry at the Candler School of Theology at Emory University. At Candler, I focus on the contextual education of the Episcopal and Anglican seminarians, exploring the dynamics of congregational life in a “laboratory of spiritual imagination.” Candler School of Theology Anglican/Episcopal Studies Program My broader work as a priest, teacher, retreat leader, and author is grounded in the Christian contemplative tradition. I continue to share in ongoing conversations with friends from the New Contemplative Exchange, a fellowship first gathered by Thomas Keating, Richard Rohr, Tilden Edwards, and Laurence Freeman at St. Benedict's Monastery in Snowmass, Colorado in August 2017. Since that time, I contributed to and co-edited the volume Contemplation and Community: A Gathering of Fresh Voices for a Living Tradition (Crossroad, 2019) and am the author of The Heart of a Calling: The Practice of Christian Mindfulness in Congregational Ministry (Crossroad, 2021). Before “church life,” I studied in the pre-med program at Lyon College in Batesville, Arkansas (B.S. in Biology, summa cum laude), and I did my initial theological studies at Columbia Theological Seminary in Decatur, Georgia (M.Div, honors in spiritual formation). I also completed a certificate in Anglican Studies and the Doctor of Ministry degree from the School of Theology at the University of the South in Sewanee Tennessee. With the global contemplative community, I have worked with the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation, the World Community for Christian Meditation, Contemplative Outreach, the Candler School of Theology, Mepkin Abbey, and others. As well, I continue my practice and research into the connections between the Christian contemplative tradition and the Tibetan/Himalayan Buddhism, and I have a deep appreciation for the intersection of poetry and contemplative practice. My wife, Lisa, and I have one daughter, Evelyn. We both grew up in Southeastern Arkansas, in the Mississippi Delta, with fried catfish, sweet tea, and mosquitoes the size of small birds.                      https://contemplativereformation.blog   Host: James Hazelwood   James Hazelwood, author, bishop, and spiritual companion, is the author of Weird Wisdom for the Second Half of Life and Everyday Spirituality: Discover a Life of Hope, Peace, and Meaning. His website is www.jameshazelwood.net  

In this very very special episode the fellas speak with Stephen Jenkinson, a renowned author, storyteller, and grief worker. Jenkinson has a master's degree in theology from Harvard Divinity School and another in social work from the University of Toronto. He led the counselling program for the country's largest home-based palliative care program, and has worked with thousands of people facing death and dying. The fellas are enthralled as Jenkinson discusses his views on death, grief, and the importance of engaging with these topics in a meaningful way. He shares insights from his work as a social worker and his own personal experiences with death. We also talk about the cultural factors that contribute to our "death phobia" and "grief illiteracy." But don't worry, this episode is not all doom and gloom. Jenkinson also shares some of his own unique (and sometimes humorous) insights on how to live a more meaningful life in the face of death. This episode is a powerful and thought-provoking exploration of one of the most important aspects of the human experience. If you are interested in learning more about death, grief, and how to live a more meaningful life, then this episode is for you... even if you're a little bit scared of dying.

This conversation blew my mind. It's one of the deepest, poetic and most profound conversations I've had in many years. A must listen to episode. This episode is not just about dying but about LIVING Today we're joined by Stephen Jenkinson, an activist, teacher, author, and farmer. He is the founder of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada and the author of four books, including Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul, the award-winning book about grief and dying, and the great love of life. In this episode we discuss:  Spiritual/wellness industry and death Self healing or healing in community? How to navigate living & death Living well so you die well. Our collective Echo chamber and how it impacts us Cancel culture Story telling & creativity to process endings What has Stephen's work taught him about himself Ways to Connect Stephen GET “NIGHTS OF GRIEF & MYSTERY” TOUR TICKETS- HERE Website- HERE Ways to connect with NATALIE Carry on the conversation on Substack Visit - www.natalie-miles.com for all her offerings and services. Including mediumship and psychic reading sessions Instagram - Follow Natalie Instagram- Follow Things That Die Credits Podcast Music: “Things That Die” by Baljit Rayat Editing - Kelly Whinnem

My guest today is someone I consider an important teacher in my life, Stephen Jenkinson. He is a cultural activist, he is a farmer and a philosopher. He is the author of a number of books including some that are my favourites. He presents life as it really is and because he has worked with the dying for so many years, he attempts to anchor us in the reality of where we are. There isn't a time that we need this more.This might not appear to be a very cheerful conversation but if you understand my work, I expect to have one of the most cheerful conversations about the reality of where we are today. This is definitely an important moment in my life when I meet one of my teachers.  Stephen Jenkinson is an author, a farmer and a philosopher. He has years of experience as a palliative care worker and is a former programme director at a major Canadian hospital. Stephen has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). He is also a co-founder of The Orphan Wisdom School. Listen as we discuss:03:30 - Tie your camel 05:00 - The internal shift 07:00 - A Wondering Dervish 08:00 - A useful compromise 11:30 - The human struggle 15:00 - Is it too late? 16:30 - Finding peace 22:00 - The answer is asking the right question 26:30 - Hunger for money 30:00 - What the soul needs 33:00 - The spirit work 37:30 - From awful to awe 40:00 - A drop of the Divine in us all 42:00 - Gilgamesh 45:30 - More God than you need?  Find out more about Stephen Jenkinson and his work here.YouTube: @mogawdatofficialInstagram: @mo_gawdatFacebook: @mo.gawdat.officialTwitter: @mgawdatLinkedIn: /in/mogawdatWebsite: mogawdat.comDon't forget to subscribe to Slo Mo for new episodes every Saturday. Only with your help can we reach One Billion Happy #onebillionhappy

In this episode, guest host and podcast producer Jackson Kroopf interviews Kimberly and Stephen Jenkinson about their ongoing event series Reckoning: Birth and Death Among Us. They discuss the role of witness in their work as birth and death workers, the politics of feelings in a culture where pop psychology has become a religion, and dive deeply into their relationship to matrimony. In anticipation of their final event this summer, “Reckon and Wonder: Grief, Elderhood and Spirit Work,” taking place this June 29th-July 2nd, 2023 at the Orphan Wisdom school in Ontario, they reflect on the difference between recording and live events and the unique impact that their convergence has revealed in their respective relationships to the oral tradition.   What You'll Here Reflections on witness from retired birth and death workers The value of disillusionment The power of loneliness The proliferation of self pathologizing The complex politics of feelings The religion of western psychology Adolescents grabbing for pop psychology labels The respect in not offering solutions The eagerness to escape from pain while grieving Is love dead? Blessing not as approval but the emergence of something new Marriage as both celebration and loss Matrimony between cultures An only child and single parent inviting in a new husband Building an escape route as you enter a union The no-go zone of contemporary western marriage 15 minute weddings, 15 minute funerals, 15 minute births The cultural casualties of uniformity Being healthy enough to tend to home and neighbor   Bio Stephen Jenkinson is a cultural worker, teacher, author, musician and ceremonialist. He is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, founded in 2010 with his wife Nathalie Roy. He has Master's degrees from Harvard University (Theology) and the University of Toronto (Social Work). Since co-founding the Nights of Grief and Mystery project with singer/ songwriter Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured this musical / tent show revival / storytelling ceremony across North America, U.K. and Europe and Australia and New Zealand. They released their Nights of Grief & Mystery album in 2017 and at the end of 2020, they released two new records; Dark Roads and Rough Gods. Stephen is the author of Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), the award-winning Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Homecoming: The Haiku Sessions (a live teaching from 2013), How it All Could Be: A workbook for dying people and those who love them (2009), Angel and Executioner: Grief and the Love of Life – (a live teaching from 2009), and Money and The Soul's Desires: A Meditation (2002). Most recently, Stephen published Reckoning (2022) with Kimberly Ann Johnson.   Links Reckon & Wonder: Grief, Elderhood, Spirit Work ~ A weekend at Orphan Wisdom, Ontario  

Embrace the wisdom of your years and let it shine brightly! Elderhood ain't the time to fade away - it's your time to illuminate the world with your experience and love.As we journey through life, we often think about the legacy we want to leave behind. It's a big question that can bring up all sorts of emotions - from pride to anxiety. Today, we've got two incredible guests, Stephen Jenkinson and Kimberly Johnson, who are going to help shed some light on this question. Together, we're going to explore their latest book, "Reckoning," and dive into topics like spirit work, elderhood, grief and plague, and building culture in a time where self-interest often comes first. One thing that really stood out to us is the idea that elderhood is a function, not an identity. It's pretty mind-blowing stuff, and we can't wait to delve deeper into it. So sit back, relax, and join us for an inspiring conversation with two amazing authors and thought leaders. Let's open our minds and broaden our horizons together! ABOUT STEPHEN JENKINSON Stephen is a Canadian writer, teacher and grief literacy advocate Website: https://orphanwisdom.com/ ABOUT KIMBERLY JOHNSON Kimberly is the author of the classic early mothering book, The Fourth Trimester, and has spent the past twenty years working with people and their bodies as a sexological bodyworker, somatic experiencing practitioner, yoga teacher, and birth doula. She specializes in helping women heal from birth injuries, gynecological trauma and sexual boundary violations.Website: https://kimberlyannjohnson.com/  WHAT YOU WILL HEAR [03:30] Discovering the Inspiration Behind the Book "Reckoning." [10:54] Unpacking the Message of the Book. [19:56] Reckoning with Our Time on Earth. [24:23] What does responsible citizenship mean and how can we become one? [33:31] Stephen's Perspective on Aging and Wisdom [39:57] Imagining a World Without Elders [53:10] What to expect from the book? [1:07:32] Connect with Stephen and Kimberly. If you look at the civilized world and think, "No thank you," then you should subscribe to our podcast, so you don't miss a single episode! Also, join the uncivilized community, and connect with me on my website,⁠ YouTube⁠, or⁠ Instagram⁠ so you can join in on our live recordings, ask questions to guests, and more. Get a copy of one of my books,⁠ Man UNcivilized⁠ and⁠ Today I Rise⁠ Click here to sign up for the⁠ Kill the Nice Guy course⁠

Humanity is poised on a threshold that could be described as a global dark night of the soul. This global crisis is not asking us to simply “make things better” or invent new ways of living. It's demanding that we surrender to a transformation so radical that we become a new variety of the human species. Our assignment is to become sacred activists. Carolyn Baker, Ph.D. was a psychotherapist in private practice and a college professor of psychology and history. Now through her webinars, podcasts, live workshops, books, and articles, as well as one-on-one life coaching, Carolyn is touching the lives of thousands to assist them in deeply adapting and becoming resilient in the face of the unprecedented changes confronting humanity. She works closely with Andrew Harvey for the Institute for Sacred Activism. She is the author of Undaunted: Living Fiercely into Climate Meltdown in an Authoritarian World (Apocryphile Press 2022) and Radical Regeneration: Sacred Activism and the Renewal of the World (co-author Andrew Harvey) (Inner Traditions 2022).Interview Date: 2/17/2023 Tags: MP3, Carolyn Baker, Stephen Jenkinson, H.H. the Dalai Lama, sacred activism, sacred activists, Margaret Wheatley, caterpillar liquefying, rite-of-passage, shelter in place, pandemic, Willis Harman, pessimism, optimism, Paul Levy, infinite possibilities, AI, Artificial intelligence, Shoshana Zuboff, Jonathan Harari, fascism, democracy, sacredness, reverence, joy, isolation, eldership, Social Change/Politics, Personal Transformation, Spirituality

Never before had I met a man so interested in ending the suffering of men and the suffering caused by men like Stephen Jenkinson. As you may know, it is one of the many times that we have had Stephen as our guest, and it is because this man speaks with such wisdom that it is impossible not to learn something from him. In this episode, Stephen and I will be talking about the 60's revolution, the pandemic, freedom, grief, and suffering. He will also tell us about his tour, Nights of Grief and Mystery. I promise you will love this episode. Stephen spoke in such a poetic way that it will make you feel like you are having a piece of his tour. Can't miss it. ABOUT STEPHEN Culture activist, worker, author ~ Stephen teaches internationally and is the creator and principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School, co-founded the school with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010, convening semi-annually in Deacon, Ontario, and in northern Europe. Apprenticed to a master storyteller when a young man, he has worked extensively with dying people and their families, is former programme director in a major Canadian hospital, former assistant professor in a prominent Canadian medical school. He is also a sculptor, traditional canoe builder whose house won a Governor General's Award for architecture. Since co-founding the Nights of Grief and Mystery project with singer/ songwriter Gregory Hoskins in 2015, he has toured this musical/ tent show revival/ storytelling/ ceremony of a show across North America, U.K. and Europe and Australia and New Zealand. They released their Nights of Grief & Mystery album in 2017 and at the end of 2020, they released two new records; Dark Roads and Rough Gods. CONNECT WITH STEPHEN Website: https://orphanwisdom.com/ Stephen's tour: https://orphanwisdom.com/nights-of-grief-and-mystery/ WHAT YOU WILL HEAR [3:28] The hardest challenges of being on tour. [7:18] What's Stephen calling? [14:14] Where did Stephen get the relationship he has with words? [18:10] The 60's revolution [21:23] The 2020 pandemic. [33:54] Nights of Grief and Mystery tour. [39:55] What's suffering? [48:02] Where to find Stephen. If you look at the civilized world and think, "no thank you," then you should subscribe to our podcast, so you don't miss a single episode! Also, join the uncivilized community, and connect with me on my website, YouTube, or Instagram so you can join in on our live recordings, ask questions to guests, and more. Take a look Behind the Mask as we dive into elements of masculinity with Anger, Relationship, and Sex. Get a copy of one of my books, Man UNcivilized and Today I Rise Click here to sign up for the Kill the Nice Guy course. Join The UNcivilized Nation when we open registration in January