Podcast appearances and mentions of jorge just

Listener Tessa was at the airport and noticed that the REAL ID deadline had been extended — yet again — to May 2025. Why does it keep happening? Will REAL ID will ever become a thing? Team Explain It to Me goes on a reporting journey to bring her an answer nearly 20 years in the making.  If you have a question, please give us a call at 1-800-618-8545, or you can fill out this form.  This episode was produced by Carla Javier and Sofi LaLonde, edited by Jorge Just, fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch, engineered by Andrea Kristinsdottir, and hosted by Jonquilyn Hill.  READ MORE: Real IDs, explained Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Funding cuts and research censorship have shaken the foundations of America's health and science agencies, leaving researchers shocked, confused, and afraid. In this episode of Unexplainable, we ask, what does this mean for the future of science? This episode was hosted and produced by Noam Hassenfeld with help from Byrd Pinkerton, Thomas Lu, and Amanda Llewelyn, edited by Jorge Just and Meradith Hoddinott, fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch, and engineeered by Cristian Ayala.  Broken lab beakers. Image by robuart for Shutterstock. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special feed drop of the new Vox podcast Explain It to Me, we answer some of the questions you have asked Vox about the election, like why you're getting so many urgent texts asking for money.  This episode was produced by Sofi LaLonde and Carla Javier, edited by Jorge Just, fact-checked by Caitlin PenzeyMoog, engineered by Cristian Ayala and Patrick Boyd, and hosted by Jonquilyn Hill.  Photo by Rodin Eckenroth/Getty Images.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

About 40 percent of Americans believe in ghosts, and one in five even say they've had an encounter with one! So could ghosts really exist?? Or does some other spooky phenomenon explain these strange and sometimes terrifying experiences? To find out, we visit a haunted house with paranormal investigators, explore one very creepy basement searching for ghostly mold, and try to move cutlery with the help of quantum physics. Join us on this Halloween adventure with astrophysicist Dr. Katie Mack, environmental engineer Dr. Shane Rogers as well as psychologists Dr Baland Jalal, and Prof. Chris French. Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/ScienceVsGhosts2024  This is an updated version of our ghosts episode from several years ago. In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Visiting a Haunted House  (06:09) Hunting for Ghosts in Theoretical Physics  (12:27) Eerie Electromagnetic Fields?  (16:49) Spooky Sleep Paralysis  (23:13) Spooky Spores (31:50) Spine Tingling Psychology This episode was produced by Ben Kuebrich, Kaitlyn Sawrey, Diane Wu, Heather Rogers, Shruti Ravindran and Wendy Zukerman. Editing by Annie-Rose Strasser and Blythe Terrell. Production assistance: Audrey Quinn. Fact checking by Michelle Harris. Sound engineering, music production and original scoring by Bobby Lord. Thanks to Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe, Dr. Neil Dagnall, Dr. Giulio Rognini, Raymond Swyers, Dr. Joseph Baker, Prof. Kwai Man Luk, Prof. Kin Seng Chiang, Prof. Tapan Sarkar, Prof. Maxim Gitlits, The Zukerman family, Joseph Lavelle Wilson as well as Jorge Just, Devon Taylor … and thanks to Haley Shaw for the spooooky violins in the Science Vs theme. Science Vs is a Spotify Studios Original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From the moment Carolina graduated from college and started her first real job, the financial advice came pouring in. It felt like everyone she knew was telling her to save for retirement. So Carolina wants to know: really? Maybe that advice was good for boomers, Gen X and millennials, but the world Carolina would be saving for seems like it's on the brink of collapse. So should Gen Z do things differently? Vox editor Bryan Walsh tells us how close we might be to an extinction-level event, and Vivian Tu a.k.a. Your Rich BFF offers some financial real talk. Submit your questions here, or give us a call. Our number is 1-800-618-8545. Credits: Jonquilyn Hill, host Sofi LaLonde, producer Andrea Kristinsdottir, engineer Carla Javier, supervising producer Melissa Hirsch, fact checker Katherine Wells and Jorge Just, editors Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listener David runs 5K fundraisers for his local zoo. And he wants to know: Is he doing the right thing? Are zoos a bastion for conservation, educating the public about endangered species? Or are they nothing more than a prison for pandas, creating a troubling power dynamic between humans and other living creatures? Host Jonquilyn Hill gets into the ethics of zoos with Vox senior reporter Kenny Torrella.  Read More: Zoos aren't for animals. They're for us. Vox.com's new newsletter, Processing Meat Submit your questions here, or give us a call. Our number is 1-800-618-8545. Credits: Jonquilyn Hill, host Sofi LaLonde, producer Cristian Ayala, engineer Caitlin PenzeyMoog, fact-checker Carla Javier, supervising producer Katherine Wells and Jorge Just, editors Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A group of teenagers and college kids were fed up with the lousy healthcare in their New York neighborhood. So they came together as a group, calling themselves the Young Lords, and fought the system head on — a fight that still resonates today. Sid Davidoff, Mickey Melendez, and Cleo Silvers share their story. [REBROADCAST] Check out the full transcript here: https://bit.ly/ScienceVsProtestersWon  In this episode, we cover: (00:00) David vs. Goliath (05:01) The garbage offensive (10:20) Taking on lead paint and hunger (13:54) The tuberculosis offensive (17:08) The fight for Lincoln Hospital (28:39) The aftermath of the takeover  This episode was produced by Wendy Zukerman, with help from Rose Rimler, Meryl Horn, Michelle Dang and Lexi Krupp. Editing by Caitlin Kenney with help from Jorge Just. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Peter Leonard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Emma Munger, Bobby Lord. The archive for this story came from Pacifica Radio Archive, and the documentaries: El Pueblo Se Levanta, and Palante, Siempre Palante!  A big thanks to Denise Oliver Velez, Dr. Darrel Wanzer-Serrano, Iris Morales, Walter Bosque Del Rio, Professor Jose R. Sanchez, and Professor Lloyd Novick. An extra thanks to Blythe Terrell, Amanda Aronczyk, the Zukerman family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Science Vs is a Spotify Studios Original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With the powers of the James Webb Space Telescope, scientists discovered some super weird things in the early Universe, and it's making some nerds question our theory of everything.  This story comes to us from our friends at Unexplainable at Vox Media. Find Unexplainable's transcript here: https://bit.ly/ScienceVsUnexplainable In this episode, we cover: (0:00) Liftoff (01:10) The James Webb Space Telescope  (04:57) Party of the early universe  (08:39) Mysteries of the early galaxies  (15:23) How do we figure it out? This episode was produced by Brian Resnick, with help from Noam Hassenfeld and Meradith Hoddinott, who also manages the Unexplainable team. Editing from Jorge Just, music from Noam, and mixing and sound design from Cristian Ayala. Fact checking from Kelsey Lannin. Mandy Nguyen is searching for new forms of life. Science Vs is a Spotify Studios Original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Many bats can live a bizarrely long time, and brush off viruses that kill people. How do they do it and what can we learn from them? Zoology Professor Emma Teeling and bat researcher and clinician Matae Ahn fly through the science.  Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/ScienceVsBats  This episode was produced by Flora Lichtman with help from Wendy Zukerman, Joel Werner, R.E. Natowicz, and Michelle Dang, Rose Rimler. Editing by Jorge Just, Annette Heist and Blythe Terrell. Fact checking by Carmen Drahl. Mix and sound design by Bumi Hidaka. Music written by Billy Libby, Emma Munger, Darah Hirsch, So Wylie and Bobby Lord. Thanks to everyone we reached out to for this episode including Dr. Vera Gorbunova, Dr. Sharon Swartz, Dr. Gerry Wilkinson, and Dr. Lisa Cooper.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Many bats can live a bizarrely long time, and brush off viruses that kill people. How do they do it and what can we learn from them? Zoology Professor Emma Teeling and bat researcher and clinician Matae Ahn fly through the science.  Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/ScienceVsBats  This episode was produced by Flora Lichtman with help from Wendy Zukerman, Joel Werner, R.E. Natowicz, and Michelle Dang, Rose Rimler. Editing by Jorge Just, Annette Heist and Blythe Terrell. Fact checking by Carmen Drahl. Mix and sound design by Bumi Hidaka. Music written by Billy Libby, Emma Munger, Darah Hirsch, So Wylie and Bobby Lord. Thanks to everyone we reached out to for this episode including Dr. Vera Gorbunova, Dr. Sharon Swartz, Dr. Gerry Wilkinson, and Dr. Lisa Cooper.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Artificial Intelligence seems more human-like and capable than ever before — but how did it get so good so quickly? Today, we're pulling back the curtain to find out exactly how AI works. And we'll dig into one of the biggest problems that scientists are worried about here: The ability of AI to trick us. We talk to Dr. Sasha Luccioni and Professor Seth Lazar about the science. This episode contains explicit language. There's also a brief mention of suicide, so please take care when listening. Here are some crisis hotlines:  United States: US National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-TALK (2755) (Online chat available); US Crisis Text Line Text “GO” to 741741 Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14 (Online chat available) Canada: Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention (See link for phone numbers listed by province) United Kingdom: Samaritans 116 123 (UK and ROI) Full list of international hotlines here  Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/ScienceVsAI Chapters:  In this episode, we cover: Time stamp and titles for each chapter (first chapter must start at 00:00, minimum 3 chapters) (00:00) 64,000 willies (05:13) A swag pope (06:36) Why is AI so good right now? (09:06) How does AI work?  (17:43) Opening up AI to everyone (20:42) A rogue chatbot (27:50) Charming chatbots (29:42) A misinformation apocalypse? (33:16) Can you tell me something good?! (36:08) Citations, credits, and a special surprise…  This episode was produced by Joel Werner, with help from Wendy Zukerman, Meryl Horn, R.E. Natowicz, Rose Rimler, and Michelle Dang. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Mix and sound design by Jonathon Roberts. Music written by Bobby Lord, Peter Leonard, Emma Munger So Wylie and Bumi Hidaka. Thanks to all the researchers we spoke to including Dr Patrick Mineault, Professor Melanie Mitchell, Professor Arvind Narayanan, Professor Philip Torr, Stella Biderman, and Arman Chaudhry. Special thanks to Katie Vines, Allison, Jorge Just, the Zukerman Family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just two months before Covid-19 broke out, we made a fictional pandemic episode that was like “Contagion” but with citations. And we played it for Dr. Anthony Fauci. Today, we're looking back at that episode and asking — how much of the pandemic did we predict?  This episode has some unbleeped curse words.  Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/ScienceVsPandemic In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Chapter One: Why we're sharing this episode (03:42) Chapter Two: Meet Dr. Anthony Fauci (07:10) Chapter Three: The fictional pandemic begins (26:50) Chapter Four: Fauci's thoughts on our fake pandemic (33:53) Chapter Five: Wendy and Blythe's reaction The original pandemic episode was produced by Kaitlyn Sawrey, with help from Wendy Zukerman, Michelle Dang, Lexi Krupp, Rose Rimler and Meryl Horn. It was edited by Caitlin Kenney and Blythe Terrell. Extra writing help from Kevin Christopher Snipes. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Peter Leonard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord and Marcus Thorne Bagala. This new update was produced by Rose Rimler and fact checked by Erika Akiko Howard, and mixed by Bobby lord. Thank you to all the scientists and researchers we got in touch with for this episode, including Dr. Eric Toner, Dr. Demetre Daskalakis, Beth Maldin Morgenthau, Dr. Melvin Sanicas, Dr. Mandy Izzo, Dr. Kurt Frey, Professor Michael Osterholm, Dr. Patrick Saunders Hastings, Rosemary Gibson, Thomas Bollyky, Dr. Ashleigh Tuite, Professor Stephen Morse, Dr. Lalitha Sundaram, Professor David N. Fisman, Lynette Brammer, the late Dr. Mohamed Naguib, Dr. Yeulong Shu, Dr. Dan Jernigan, Dr. Kirsty Short, and special thanks to Bess Davenport at CDC.  Thanks to our actors, Annabelle Fox as Mindy, as well as the late William Dufris, Alice Kors, Dani Cervone, Robin Miles, Jordan Cobb, Jonathan Woodward, Ian Lowe and Casey Wortmann. Directed by William Dufris with help from Wendy Zukerman, Kaitlyn Sawrey and Fred Greenhalgh. Recording by Fred Greenhalgh and Peter Leonard. Also thank you to all the Gimlet people who performed various drafts during edits, including Chad Chenail, Gabe Lozada, Jasmine Romero and MR Daniel. And a huge thank you to Frank Lopez, Jorge Just, Joel Werner, R.E. Natowicz, Stevie Lane, Phoebe Flanigan, Chris Giliberti, Justin McGolrick, Katie Pastore, the Zukerman Family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson.  Gimlet's managing director is Nicole Beemsterboer. Science Vs is a Spotify Original Podcast and a Gimlet production. Follow Science vs on Spotify. Tap the bell to receive new episode notifications. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For years, ketamine has been thought of mostly as a horse tranquilizer — or a street drug that puts you in a scary-sounding K-hole. But now, we're hearing reports that it could be almost a miracle medicine, treating stubborn depression and other mental illnesses. So how good is it, really? And could using a drug like this for depression actually be dangerous? We talk to researchers Dr. Rebecca Price, Prof. Colleen Loo, and Prof. Gerard Sanacora – and Fernanda Graciolli.  This episode does deal with depression and suicidal thoughts. Here are some crisis hotlines:  United States: US National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1-800-273-TALK (2755) (Online chat available); US Crisis Text Line Text “GO” to 741741 Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14 (Online chat available) Canada: Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention (See link for phone numbers listed by province) United Kingdom: Samaritans 116 123 (UK and ROI) Full list of international hotlines here  Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/ScienceVsKetamine In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro: Ketamine - a new wonder drug?  (05:47) Chapter One: Ketamine and depression (10:37) Chapter Two: What does ketamine do in the brain? (15:04) Chapter Three: But ketamine doesn't help everyone … (20:17) Chapter Four: The risks of using ketamine (24:30) Chapter Five: Ketamine and addiction (25:54) Chapter Six: Overall — what should we make of ketamine? This episode was produced by Michelle Dang,Wendy Zukerman, R.E. Natowicz, Joel Werner, Rose Rimler, and Meryl Horn. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Gimlet's managing director is Nicole Beemsterboer. Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Mix and sound design by Catherine Anderson. Music written by Bobby Lord, Peter Leonard, Bumi Hidaka, So Wiley, and Emma Munger. Thank you to researchers Prof. Bita Moghaddam and Grace Forsyth. Special thanks to Flora Lichtman, Jorge Just, the Zukerman Family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson.  Science Vs is a Spotify Original Podcast and a Gimlet production. Follow Science Vs on Spotify, and if you want to get notifications every time we put out a new episode, tap the bell icon in your app. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A male birth control pill has been this big tease for decades. And today, with the overturning of Roe v. Wade … a male pill might matter more than ever. So we're grabbing science by the balls to find out – where is it? Will it ever get to the shelves? We talk to physicians Prof. John Amory and Dr. Brian Nguyen.  Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/3zq9dcq This episode was produced by Michelle Dang, with help from Disha Bhagat, Rose Rimler and Meryl Horn. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Additional editing help on this episode from Caitlin Kenney and Jorge Just. Wendy Zukerman is our Executive Producer. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Bumi Hidaka. Music written by Bumi Hidaka, Emma Munger, Bobby Lord, and Peter Leonard. Special thanks to Thomas Rossetti, Jacob Rimler and Jack Weinstein.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Last week, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. And in their opinion, we found a lot of scientific-sounding statements. So we wanted to find out whether these statements are true. We'll tell you what actually happens in an abortion, whether a fetus can feel pain, and what the risks are for a pregnant person. We visit an abortion clinic in Texas and talk to Dr. Amita Murthy, Dr. Lisa Harris, and Dr. Diana Greene Foster. Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/3OBfveK This episode was produced by Heather Rogers, Meryl Horn, Wendy Zukerman, Ben Kuebrich, Kaitlyn Sawrey, Shruti Ravindran, Courtney Gilbert, Rose Rimler and Michelle Dang. Edited by Annie-Rose Strasser and Blythe Terrell. Fact checking by Diane Kelly and Ekedi Fausther-Keeys. Extra help with production and editorial from Rachel Ward, Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just. Music production and original music written by Bobby Lord. Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord, Catherine Anderson and Emma Munger. Thanks to Dr. Lola Pellegrino, Ronnie Shankar, Dr. Diane Horvath-Cosper, Rachel Jones, Elizabeth Nash, Dr Yoon-Jin Kim, Delma Limones. and Gilda Sedgh. Also thanks to Katie Bishop and Reverend David Gushee.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

REBROADCAST. The Supreme Court is set to rule on a major abortion case this year, and the court could decide to overturn Roe v. Wade. Already, places like Oklahoma, Texas and Idaho are rolling out major abortion restrictions. So today, we're going back to the pre-Roe years, when one group of women got fed up and decided to take their health into their own hands. We talk to “self-helpers” Carol Downer and Francie Hornstein, who led a movement for safe abortions and education for women by women. Here's the link to our transcript: https://bit.ly/3v5d23E This episode was produced by Wendy Zukerman, with help from Meryl Horn, Rose Rimler and Michelle Dang. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Editing help from Caitlin Kenney, Kaitlyn Sawrey, Sruthi Pinnamaneni, Jorge Just, Lulu Miller and Chris Neary. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Peter Leonard and Bumi Hidaka. Music by Bumi Hidaka, Peter Leonard, Emma Munger and Bobby Lord. Recording assistance from Anny Celsi. Protest tape courtesy of Pacifica Radio Archives. A huge thanks to all the scientists we got in touch with for this episode, including Dr. Sara Matthiesen, Professor Verta Taylor, Professor John DeLancey, Professor Carole Joffe, Professor Johanna Schoen, and Dr. Denise Copelton. And special thanks to Michele Welsing and the team at Southern California Library, Dr. Becky Chalker, Jonathon Roberts, Jim Aspholm, Odelia Rubin, Alice Kors, the Zukerman family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the second and final part of last week's episode. So if you've not yet heard the episode “Justine,” go back and listen to that first. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by senior producer Kalila Holt, along with Stevie Lane and Mohini Madgavkar. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg, Sharon Mashihi, Connie Walker, Isabelle Larreur, and Jackie Cohen. News footage courtesy of Gray Media Group, Inc. and WAVE 3 News. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Katie Mullins, and Bobby Lord. The song Stephen listens to in the episode is “The Other Side of Mt. Heart Attack” by Liars. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the second and final part of last week's episode. So if you've not yet heard the episode “Justine,” go back and listen to that first. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by senior producer Kalila Holt, along with Stevie Lane and Mohini Madgavkar. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg, Sharon Mashihi, Connie Walker, Isabelle Larreur, and Jackie Cohen. News footage courtesy of Gray Media Group, Inc. and WAVE 3 News. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Katie Mullins, and Bobby Lord. The song Stephen listens to in the episode is “The Other Side of Mt. Heart Attack” by Liars. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week, we dug up a favorite episode on the secret life of squirrels. The average tree squirrel can bury up to 10,000 nuts every fall. How do they keep tabs on that stash? Animal behaviorist and pro squirrel watcher Mikel Maria Delgado exposes the secrets of squirrel pantry maintenance. Thanks to caller Cayra. This episode of Every Little Thing was produced by Stephanie Werner, Emily Forman, Phoebe Flanigan, Annette Heist and Flora Lichtman, with help from Nicole Pasulka and Doug Barron. Our consulting editors are Caitlin Kenney and Jorge Just. Mixed by Dara Hirsch and Enoch Kim. Scored by Dara Hirsch, Bobby Lord and Emma Munger. ELT is a Gimlet production and a Spotify original podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sunni Brown is a social entrepreneur who uses visual literacy, design thinking, and visual facilitation to solve complex problems. She's the author of The Doodle Revolution and co-author of Gamestorming. In this conversation, we discuss Sunni's current area of focus, which uses Zen Buddhism and design thinking to help individuals craft a more fulfilling and engaged life. Show notes Sunni Brown Deep Self Design Sunni on Twitter Sunni on LinkedIn Sunni on Instagram Sunni on Facebook The Doodle Revolution: Unlock the Power to Think Differently by Sunni Brown Gamestorming: A Playbook for Innovators, Rulebreakers, and Changemakers by Dave Gray, Sunni Brown, and James Macanufo Dave Mastronardi (LinkedIn) What is a multipotentialite? The Nexialist approach: Van Vogt and the idea that ‘specialisation is for insects' Sōtō Zen Zendō Reality distortion field _Liminal Thinking: Create the Change You Want by Changing the Way You Think_ by Dave Gray In defense of the visual alphabet by Dave Gray Design personas Kate Rutter (LinkedIn) Brené Brown Sesshin Double diamond diagram Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the transcript Jorge: Sunni, welcome to the show. Sunni: Thank you. Jorge: It's a pleasure having you here. For folks who might not know you, would you mind, please, introducing yourself? About Sunni Sunni: Oh, when you let me know that we were going to have to do that, I had this like moment of, oh God! How do you introduce oneself when you're a, like a... well, the new term is multipotentialite. Have you heard this obnoxious term? Jorge: No. Sunni: Well, it's like if you're a polymath, or if you just have multifaceted aspects of yourself. It's not easy to summarize who I am, what I do. So, I always dread the question. But there is a term floating around called multipotentialite, and it just means the person that has many skills and many things that they pursue and many things that they're interested in. There's a lot of neuro-diversity going on, so we're not easily put in a space. So, it's hard for me to summarize myself. But I would say what's useful for people to know for the purposes of this conversation is probably that... I'll just tell you my role. I am an author and a public speaker and a visual thinker, and a facilitator. Really, a sort of deep-dive facilitator. And a Zen student. And also what I call a Deep Self Designer. And a book coach. So as you can see, my friend, Dave Mastronardi, finally gave me language for this the other day. He goes, "you're just a creative with a capital C!" And I was like, "Cool, Dave, thank you! Because that kind of helps, you know?" It's like, I just am interested in a lot. Jorge: I don't like the word generalist because it implies like Jack of all trades, master of none. Sunni: Yeah, right! Jorge: I love this idea of multipotentialite. I recently heard the word "nexialist," which... Sunni: What is that? Like a person at the nexus of lots of things? Jorge: Doesn't quite roll off the tongue either. It comes from a sci-fi book, and I'll put a link in the show notes so that we don't have to go into it in too much depth here. But I think it's a similar idea, that you are driven by several different interests. Sunni: I love science fiction for that. They always give us language that we need, you know? Jorge: I feel like I want to explore several of the many... what's the plural of nexus? Is it nexuses? Or nexii? Sunni: Nexialisms! Jorge: Several of the different identities that you served us there. Or potentialities, maybe. You spoke of... well, let's, tackle two of them that I'm especially curious about. You mentioned that you're a Zen student and a Deep Self Designer. I don't know if you want to take those independently or if they somehow connect? Sunni: They do connect, actually. And it's cool that you alighted in on those two, because they're the... I think honestly, the most important ones that I do. And they have the most... they have the most liberating capacity of all the things that I do. And they do have intersections, absolutely. Zen Sunni: So, Zen is not something you can summarize really at all. It's such a deep and ancient lineage and an enormous body of practice. But what I find useful and what actually... it was sort of the groundwork for my pursuit of designing another method. And what it did for me was help me understand that the mind is a machine, and it has like projections onto reality all the time. And it has narratives and stories that it constantly creates and recreates and lives into. And they can be very confining, these perceptions of reality. And so when you run into some ideas about reality that are actually created by you, based on your history and your experience, if they cause friction for you, then there's a sort of place where you can redesign that intersection with reality to create a better reality for yourself. And I know that's like a lot to just unload in conversation, but Zen made just sitting, which is... I'm in what's called the Soto Zen lineage. So literally, you sit in meditation for hours. I mean, I probably sat for 10,000 hours easily, and - not easily, but difficult-ly. But we call it just getting on the cushion, right? So like you just take it there, and then you kind of watch what your mind is up to. And through that process, I learned how I trick myself, how I can have distortions in my belief systems. I think Steve Jobs used to call it a "reality distortion field." I think he was also a Zen practitioner. But that laid the groundwork for me to understand, "oh, I have a lot of agency and choice once I understand how my system works." And you know, like you're a systems thinker and a design thinker, so of course I was interested in that. And then I just went from that place and started to practice with different methods to support other people. Jorge: I'm reminded of our mutual friend Dave Gray's book, Liminal Thinking. Sunni: Oh, Yeah! It's so funny you said that. Because I have it, of course — I always will buy whatever Dave makes, but I haven't read it because I always have way too many books. But I understand kind of the vibe, and a lot of people, when I talk about this, they bring up his book, and I'm like, I should read that. Jorge: When I first read that, I remember asking Dave about it because I got the sense that there was a lot of Buddhism in... Sunni: Yeah, I don't know that Dave knows that he has a Buddhist aspect. I don't think he's a Buddhist practitioner. But I have found there are multiple people that actually arrive at some of these deep wisdoms because it's not... it's in reality. So, the Buddha was just describing reality. So, anyone can find their own path to that awareness. And so, yeah! It's funny to me when I work with people, and I go, "oh my God, that's like a very ancient principle that you stumbled upon," you know? So I think Dave must've done that too. Because he doesn't like go to the zendo, I'm pretty sure. Jorge: The path, it seems to me... and here I'm reflecting back to you what perhaps I layered through my own experience onto what you were saying, which is that we experience reality at various different levels. And if you step back far enough, you're able to contemplate the fact that much of what we experience is in some ways emerging from within us? Or at least the way that we're experiencing it is emerging from within us. Sunni: Well said! Beautifully said, yeah! Deep Self Design Jorge: I want to bring it back to this idea of Deep Self Design. What I'm projecting onto this or where I think that the two circles in the Venn diagram might overlap, is that, if you understand this - this fact that, much of what we are experiencing is emerging from within us - and you are someone who sees the world through the eyes of design, then perhaps you can do something about it, Sunni: You do a lot. Jorge: So what would you be able to do about it? Sunni: It's so funny, we're talking about this because last night I was having this conversation with my husband about workability. So everything... well, I won't make totalizing statements. I'll try to avoid them, but almost everything in your internal system is workable. Meaning that it all has plasticity and an adaptation capacity, or a significant amount of it. This is going to sound very hyperbolic, but the reason I have such confidence in the workability of the system is because I redesigned my own internal experience over the course of... it's been 15 years now. But the mind that I started with when I started investigating this practice and the mind I have now are entirely different planetary systems. And I have a complex trauma history, which is relevant because when you have a complex trauma history, you have a whole host of distorted ideas about reality, all of which are workable. And so, for me, it's like an actually hopeful message. It's like, "oh my God. Your backstory can be kind of f*cked up, you know?" And you can completely... as long as, to your point, it was a really important thing that you said Jorge, which was, "if you step back." So, you have to get some separation and observe, with compassion, your belief systems, and from that seat, it's like a gentle observation, then you have space with which to work. Often the traumatized brain is terrified of making that separation. It can be, for a variety of reasons. So, that's why it is a practice, and it's a patience game, often. But you can literally redesign your experience of yourself and of the world and of other people and of what's possible. And the energy that you liberate in that process is insane. It's absolutely insane how much energy you get when you untether yourself from a lot of distorted ideas about yourself in the world. And that's why I thought like, well, it's a design thinking challenge, you know? It's basically like internal system mapping and then giving people methodologies to support the spaces that they want to loosen up or soften. I'm very fortunate to have encountered great teachers, really extraordinary teachers, and I'm fortunate to have had the time and the passion to do a deep dive. But it's like that hero's journey where you go in, and you come out, and you're like, "well, I have something I could share." So, I'm still sorting out how to teach it, how to format it, how to design a methodology because it is not a small thing to try to do, but it's worth it. It's completely worth it to try. Jorge: It sounds empowering. Sunni: It's extremely empowering. Jorge: It sounds like a practice that restores perhaps a sense of agency where you're not buffeted by the contingencies of whatever happens in everyday life as much. Sunni: And it's so important! That message is so important because there are places you go that are scary. And there are fires you have to walk through. And you have to know that on the other side, not only will you be more free, but you'll be stronger. But you can't know that going in. Once you get your sea legs and you start to understand, "oh my God, this is like Jedi training!" then you can feel more confident about the outcome. But the early stages for most people is it can be absolutely terrifying. 100%. Absolutely true. I mean, that's why most people can't even sit in meditation, frankly because a lot of people do not want to sit with the content of their own mind. It's not something that we're encouraged to do, and it's not something that we're taught to do, and we don't know why we would do it. So we spend a lot of time avoiding that very thing. Understandably. I mean, I understand that instinct completely. It's... it's terrifying. But it's so freaking worth it. It's so worth it! There's no question about it. No question! And it improves your life, you know? It improves your relationships with yourself and other people. And really, your relationships are the most valuable thing you have. And your health, and maybe time, you know? So it's a significant process, but it's not necessarily for everyone. And probably you experienced this with your students. There's what I call a state of readiness, which means that they're willing to do the work. They're willing to be honest with themselves and others, and they're willing to address and hold space for really difficult content. And if I work with a person and it's very clear that they're not actually at that place, then they need to come back. They need to go and come back, you know? Because it's a thing. And then in Zen, the analogy is when you go to the zendo, and you knock on the door three times, and a monk opens the door, and they say, "go away!" You know? And they shut the door, and then you sleep out in the cold or whatever, and then you come again. You knock, and then the monk opens and says, "go away." So it's a way of saying, if you're not ready, don't bother! Don't come, you know? And that process is a person's individual journey, and you can't rush that for people. Starting the journey Jorge: You mentioned in your own journey having suffered complex trauma and without getting into it, just thinking that many of us - many folks listening - have... especially over the last year and a half... gone through some pretty traumatic experiences. And with the caveat that you just laid out that not everybody might be ready to undertake such a practice, but assuming that someone would be interested in at least trying to envision the path, where would they start? Sunni: So the chapter I was telling you I sent to Kate, there are writing exercises, and there are visual thinking exercises. And often, I will just say, you know, you're in a creation when your energy has become contracted, combative, tight — when you feel conflict, internally. Your body gives you all these signals that all is not well, and it can be a very subtle signal. Say you're in a restaurant, and a person walks in, and your stomach clenches. That's an indication. So, you start with noticing. Just pay attention to what is happening inside of your system because you have to understand that you are the reactor. And the stimulus is out there, but you are the reactor. And so, noticing it's a huge part of the practice — just to start there. It's like when I used to teach visual thinking — and I do occasionally sometimes, still — but the visual thinking alphabet that Dave created, Dave Gray. It's the basics. Just start with observing where these forms are and draw them on paper. Really, you've got to start at that place and notice if you judge it. Because a lot of people will be like, "oh, I should be more brave. Why did I get nervous when the boss came in?" Or whatever. We'll instantly have a reaction to our reaction. So just noticing that. So that's the start, right? And then once you have a relationship with your experience... so you're like, "man, every time my mom comes over, I want to argue! Like right away! I just want to argue with her," you know? So you're like, okay! And so, you notice that. So, you begin to take responsibility for what you're bringing, and that's why it's empowering. It's so fascinating how accountability is like not sexy, but I'm like, that's the greatest thing you can do because you're in charge of your life. You're driving your bus, you know? So, then there are exercises that I give people that are really simple. Like just notice that a part of you came online and wanted to argue with your mom. And then it's really like a design inquiry. It's like an investigation of, imagine that that's a persona. So, say that's a design persona. And I've taught it in this way in some keynotes and stuff. So, I depersonalize it, and I say, "just treat that like a persona or an avatar. And just like you would if you were anthropologically studying a user experience. But do it for your own self." Start to understand that persona and just give it some quality... I mean, it will name itself. That's what's so fascinating is that these personas, these internal personas — they give you information. They actually let you know because they're part of your brain. So, it's just about accessing that information that's in the brain. And I'm saying it trivially like it's just that. But it's all there, and so you just get curious. You just get curious and start finding out. And so, over time, I like to teach people to create like a constellation. Like a map of their internal system with all of these different personas so that they can relate to them differently. And when they do that, that's when it starts getting good. Jorge: All of a sudden, you start understanding the territory — I would imagine — when map-making. I wanted to clarify, you mentioned Kate, and you were talking about our mutual friend, Kate Rutter, who we were talking about before starting the recording. And you alluded to a chapter. Was that a chapter of a book that you're working on, or... Sunni's new book Sunni: Yeah, this book... So, as I mentioned earlier, I'm a book coach, and I'm obsessed with books. I could be wrong, but if I had nothing but time and money, I think books are all I would do. Just unpacking and looking at publishing, coaching writers, writing... That's all I would do. So, you know, I'm published twice, and we pitched this book, actually. It is the Deep Self Design book, and the title was called, The Only Way Out Is In. Like one of the original titles, The Only Way Out Is In. And then the... I can't remember the subtitle. I have like 4,000 subtitles. But, so we pitched it. So, it was actually in proposal form. When you want to pitch to a traditional publisher, you've got to get your book in a proposal that essentially describes the product for them. It's unfortunate, but for them, it's a product. And for you too, really. So, that... it was like 90 pages of just glory, you know, and it took me years. And so, anyway, the way it ended up, and I can tell that story — but at one point in the process, I said, "Kate, can I send you, like, chapter one? And you just see if it lands for you. Like, give me a reader reaction" And apparently, it turned some keys pretty quickly for her. Because she wrote me and was like... she'd had drawn a picture of one of her personas. And I didn't even ask her to do that. And it was called "The Aviator." And so, she learned about this part of her that like flies around and sort of conducts the situation and looks from a high level and is very functional, you know, high functioning part, persona. She just got it, you know? But she's really smart. So I was like, well... because you got to write to like an eighth-grader, right? That's the level of communication that you want in books, which is why Brene Brown's tone is so beloved. So, she just listed that chapter again, and I'm willing to share with anyone. I mean, people need to know how to do it. And so, the book was pitched to publishers, and there were 17 of them. And then like 12 of them wrote back, which is pretty good. And they all said the methodology was too complex for a typical reader. And I lost my mind because I had already simplified it so very much. That day, I was like standing in my neighbor's yard, and I was just like, "nooooooo!" Because it's hard to attract to the marketplace and to still deliver something really of high value. My God! It's exhausting. So, I have put it down for now. And I started working on another book about confidence because I was like, I can't. I can revisit this thing. I'm going to f*cking freak out. Yeah. But it'll emerge at some point. Taking your space Jorge: Well, I'm hoping that we'll be able to read the Deep Self Design book at some point. I'm wondering about something that you said, and again, trying to be kind of practical for the folks listening in and wondering about where we start. I would imagine that doing this sort of internal map that you're describing here is not something that we can do effectively amidst the hustle and bustle, right? And you spoke earlier about making space. And I just got back from a weekend of camping with my family, and we went pretty far out into the woods. And I was... yeah, it was nice, but I was still surrounded by devices, and I... Sunni: Oh! Jorge: I got into a little bit of a Twitter kerfuffle. Sunni: Oh no! Jorge: Right? And I'm bringing up the story to say: it's so hard for us these days to find this space to be with ourselves and to be introspective? And even if we are aware... Sunni: You have to take it. You have to take that space. Jorge: Well, how do we do it? Do you have any advice for folks wanting to take the space? Sunni: Well, yeah. When you do a Zen sesshin, you can't have books or paper or phones. And so, you've got to do like seven days of like 10 hours of meditation. So, that is sacred time — no question about it. But for a normal person, that's not going to be on their calendar. First, you have to understand that you probably have an addiction, right? If you can't remove yourself from an object for any chunk of time, that is actually an addictive relationship. So, that's serious shit, if you ask me. And I don't think it's a popular opinion. And I think that it's also true. So for me, just labeling it as an addictive relationship is step one. And then, you don't even want to go into, like, it could be an abusive relationship. We don't even have to talk about that, but that's in there too. So, you have to understand that. And you have to just understand what is in it for you to separate yourself from it and give yourself a path. So, can I separate from my phone for four hours? If you don't want to go cold turkey, just try for four hours and notice what happens in your system when you do that. And that's actually part of the practice for Deep Self Design anyway. So, you can be like, wow, I started having FOMO. Or, I start thinking that someone's going to be mad at me because I didn't respond to them. So, you get all kinds of information from just that short separation. And there's a lot of data around... Like it literally keys up your nervous system, being in a relationship with a digital object all the time. It keys up your nervous system. And so, actually to regulate your nervous system again, which is what camping is kind of for. Camping, when it's safe and beautiful... the point of it is to actually get you into a different state. To get your regulatory system in a different state so that you can enjoy your life and be present with your family and look at the sky and realize that you're part of... you are the sky, there's no difference between you and the sky, you just project that there is. And like, you know what I mean? So, you have to understand that that space is essential for your humanity and make it a priority. And you can tell people, I mean, there are ways to approach it that are gentle on other people. So you can let people know, "I'm going to go dark for 72 hours. You should know that." Or, "I'm going to go dark, and then I'm going to have one hour where I look at stuff," you know? You have to design it for your life and what's actually available for you. Sometimes people have sick parents at home or sick kids or whatever, but you have to start to understand the benefit of it. Because I think most people think it's just like something they would lose. Like, they wouldn't get... something taken away from them. And I'm like, "no! It's something you're giving yourself that is priceless." And you get amazing ideas. Like your productivity goes up. So, I call it going slow to go fast. Actually, I read this interesting Nietzsche quote, which I don't read Nietzsche a lot or anything, but as he said like great ideas are found when you're walking. And Steve Jobs was... Also, I'm not obsessed with Steve Jobs, but he did a lot of walking meetings. So, If you are a productivity junkie, going slow helps you go fast. And it actually frees up a lot of stuck tension in the body and stuck ideas that you can't get through, and it gives you solutions and ah-has and insights. So there are huge rewards in it anyway if you need it to be aligned with productivity. But it's like, dude, we're gonna die one day, Jorge. Like all of us! And the last thing I want to do is be like, "I spent my whole life on my iPhone!" That is like the worst thing that could happen. No! And it's like, if you mess it up, try it again. Just like don't give up, you know? Go camping again and have a new policy with your family. Get consensus around it, make an agreement, and just find other ways to occupy your time. But it's a practice, you know? Are you digging this? You're smiling. Putting it in action Jorge: I am. I'm smiling because I'm looking at the clock and thinking, oh man, we're running out of time, but I don't want to leave folks with, "we're going to die someday." So, I want to bring it back to... Well, you've mentioned two things. One is this idea of making space, which, as you were saying, in our modern world often entails not just space but also shielding ourselves from these potentially addictive devices. And then the technologies that they enable. And then there's this aspect of self-awareness through — you talked about map-making and using the lens of design to think of ourselves as personas. It sounds like those two are essential to getting kind of a read — it's almost like the first part of the double diamond diagram. But there comes this moment where we have to do the synthesis work in design, and we have to think through how we're going to move forward, what we're going to do about it. So, is there a step three here as well? Sunni: After synthesis? Jorge: No, after we've done the map and we have understood ourselves. Sunni: Yes. There's definitely a step three, which is what I would call the "befriending" step. So, you have your constellation of parts of you, like how many personas are in there, and there's an average, but it's kind of infinite when you go in too far. But the next step is basically finding your most active personas. Because, when you wake up, you... I have an active persona, which is like, "oh, I'm going to be really productive. I'm going to be very in touch with a lot of people. make sure that everyone is well-fed." You know, so I have like a kitchen/caretaker part. Like I have all these personas. So you can find the most dominant ones - the most operative ones. And then, and you start to learn about them. And then, but the ultimate goal is to make friends with them all. Even the parts of yourself that you do not like because what happens when you allow and support and befriend all of the aspects of yourself is that all of this internal tension that people experience... like people wake up with anxiety, you know, people wake up with self-criticism, et cetera. All of that energy stabilizes and is calm so that your experience relating to yourself is not fraught with tension anymore. So, you actually have to befriend them, like you would an external child or a person that you care about who lives outside. You do that work internally. And when you do, you spend a lot less time kicking your own ass. I mean, people kick their own asses constantly, you know? And it's like, I'm starting to understand why is that? And what's happening there, and how do you appreciate that you're doing that, but also let it know that you don't have to do that in order to be smart or in order to be productive, et cetera. So that is like the biggest step is to befriend all of your constellations on your map. And then from there, it's like flying, you know? It's like, there's nobody in the way. There's nobody in the way. I mean, there's life; there are institutions of life that are designed to oppress people. Those things are still there, but the way that we relate to them is very different, and that's why it feels so liberating. Closing Jorge: Well, that seems like a really good place to wrap it up. I'm sure that folks listening in are going to want to learn more. Where can they go? Sunni: Oh, they can go to deepselfdesign.com. And you're also helping me. Remember that I need to create these little tools that... I always create tools and methodologies. So, deepselfdesign.com is definitely the home page. And also, sunnibrown.com has a lot of content on it. They can follow me all over social media too. Jorge: Just not while you're camping. Sunni: Yeah, no way. You'll never see me on that. Yeah, no, that's me and mother earth when that's going on, for sure. Jorge: Well, fantastic. Thank you so much for being on the show. Sunni: Yeah, Thanks for having me. It's nice to see you. Jorge: Yeah, same here.

In this conversation, we discuss Career Architecture, the focus of her current coaching work and subject of her upcoming book. Listen to the show Download episode 68 Show notes MagsHanley.com Mags Hanley on LinkedIn Seth Godin BBC Career Architecture by Mags Hanley (preorder) Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the transcript Jorge: Mags, welcome to the show. Mags: Thanks, Jorge. Lovely to see you again. It's been so long. Jorge: It has been. It's fantastic to have you here in the show. As you're hinting at with that warm greeting, we've known each other for a long time. Mags: It's probably over 20 years now. Jorge: Folks who are listening in likely don't know you. So for their benefit, would you mind please introducing yourself? About Mags Mags: Sure. I'm Mags Hanley. I am a long-time information architect, and I've been a product manager and a user experience manager. I've done the gamut. So, a long-time digital person. And over the last couple of years, actually — it's been the last couple of years — I've actually moved into more of where I feel I can make the most impact, and that is into career architecture. So, using what I use as an information architect for people's careers. And it's really come from where have I been previously as a manager, and going, "actually, I want to use all of that to support and grow people within design." Career architecture Jorge: Well, I'm super intrigued by this phrase, "career architecture," and I'll just tell you what it speaks to, to me, before you describe it: it speaks to somehow applying some of the tools and techniques and frames that folks like ourselves bring to design projects, to the design of our careers. Is that a fair take? Mags: That's a fair take. It came from a time… so, I am a member of a business school to help me develop my practice. And I sat down with the leader of the business school, Lisa O'Neill, and she asked me to describe what I do and what I am. And I said, "well, I'm an information architect. I'm going to just tell you a little bit about that," which took a little longer than I expected. Once I made the library connection, that just… you know, the cataloging elements sort of hit her, but it can be quite abstract. And then I said, "but my passion is growing people. And my passion is coaching and growing people in design and in digital, and making sure that they find what they need to do. The right path for them right now." And she turned to me and went, "you're an architect. You architect people's careers, and you architect information!" And I went, "Sweet!" So, when I was talking to all of this — and I was talking more about what is now my passion project, which is about elders in design and grown, people who are grown up in design — she turned to me and said, "I think you need a foundational course." And a foundational course, which is the career architecture, and then you can build on top of it. So, as we were saying, career architecture is about how we can use the methods that we think about and we use as information architects or as UX professionals and apply that in a very systematic way into how we think about our careers. And it's come a lot from two places. One is, it came out of something that I applied for myself. So, I finished up a project — a piece of work working for a major retailer, an e-commerce retailer in Australia — and realized as I was doing this, this wasn't the place for me. And I talked to some friends who turned to me and said, "this is not the place for you. This is not the right place for you. It's the right place for others, not for you." And I sat down and tried to work out what it is that I wanted to move forward with. I used this process on myself. And over the last two years, I've been doing exactly the same with people that I am coaching. Jorge: When you say "growing people," are you talking about them growing as professionals exclusively, or is this more broad than that? Mags: As of this moment, it's very much the professionals themselves, but one of the things that I take into consideration — and we look at together — is about life circumstances. And I feel that's the part that most people, when they talk about their professional growth, don't take into consideration. I'm a woman of 50, and I'm sitting here going, "I don't have a family, but I have elderly parents." And that is a big life circumstance for me to sit there and say how… if I'm thinking about what my next direction is, how does that impact the care that I have to give to my parents? And that means I'd make a different decision about what my career and my direction would be because I have that life circumstance. So, I feel as if, even though we think about professional development and where we want to go, we have to think about it in the whole ecosystem of where we are and what we do. And then we will make decisions about our lives and where we want to go based on what those circumstances are. Jorge: Yeah, this distinction that we hear so often about work-life balance, I always feel like it's a bit of a false dichotomy in that work is life and life is work, and they're all intertwined, right? Mags: Absolutely. And I'm working a lot with women who are in their forties and fifties, and basically, they've got family and parents and health conditions, and they need health benefits. If you're in the US, you need to make sure that you have the money for benefits. We're lucky in Australia — and I've lived in the UK — that we don't have to worry about that, with socialized medicine. But we sit there and go, "actually, our lives are wrapped. Our work is only a part of our lives and therefore, how does the rest of it work in together?" The career architecture process Jorge: Why don't you walk us through it? Like, what does the process look like? Because I'll tell you, when folks hear the word "architecture," I suspect that they think about some kind of top-down structure being imposed on a situation. People can't see this on the show, but you're nodding your head. So… Mags: I'm nodding my head, going, "No! No, no, no. I'm a bottom up information architect!" I sit there and I understand the context. I understand all the bits, so I can build up. And I think that's the element for me, which is the current-state analysis. So basically, I think about it as in two parts. I think about the process as: let's do your current-state analysis. Let's understand all those parts that make up who you are and your life and your stakeholders. And then be able to say, "what does this strategy look from there?" I feel that we actually don't do that enough. So, my process is… we're looking at skills. I'm going really deep. What are your technical skills? What is skills when it comes to what Seth Godin says is "real skills." So, how do you influence? How do you work with others? We talk about the sorts of skills that you think about in a practice. Everything to do with design and research ops and how to do velocity and scoping. So, what do you actually know as a designer? How do you work with people? Do you do people management? So, it's that sort of skills audit. Then we start to have a look at what's your experience. So, how much experience do you have? What education do you have? And then go and have a look at what your aspirations are. So, I've been writing the book and I've been writing an aspect, and putting my own flavor as examples, and then I have some case studies as well. And I sat down and said, "my aspiration is to be a gigging jazz musician." And I know that actually I'm not good enough and I haven't put enough time into it if I really wanted to be a gigging jazz singer, that would be what I would need to do. But the aspects that came out of it was that I'm not creative enough, so I really need more creativity. I'm working alone at the moment. So, I work from my home office and so I sit there and go, actually, it's more about people. It's about teaching. It's about connection. And if I look at that as aspirations, that then sits there and says, "oh! That's what I want from career and life." "Life" means it's about connection. It's about creativity. So, we look at all of those bits and then I sit there and say, "let's do some stakeholder interviews." Your stakeholder interviews are two things: your family and your friends and your coworkers. And ex-bosses. Let's get the feedback of what's working and what's not, and what the impact is. So, I know in different places that I've been that when I've been in places that don't work for me, there is a large impact on my family and friends from my mood and what the talk is happening. And therefore understanding what they're seeing, where possibly you're in a place of going, "Ooh, I don't know what's happening. Where should I be going?" really gives you some more feedback into this. And at that point, we're starting to say, what sort of directions, what possible directions are there for me? What vision do I have of where I want to be? So, we move from understanding what we are, and as I said, "the bottom up." All of those little elements in the same ways if I was doing some e-commerce work. I'd be sitting there and having a look — as I sometimes do — at all the product data and I understand what's happening and what descriptions are there and where we are, and what's good and what's bad. And then I create a strategy for what that information architecture would look like for an e-commerce. And so, the strategy element has got a number of different bits to it. One is, we look at vision and this vision… it's more about how you want to think and feel and what you want to be able to do. So, I think it is: think, feel, value and do, as a way to be able to say, "this is who I want to be, and this is what I want my career to be. " And from that, there could be multiple directions. Because if I take my own example — and this is something that I was doing when I finished up at my last permanent work role — was I sat there and said, "There are three different directions I could go on." I've been a UX manager for many, many years. Do I want to go back to that? And I had that moment of going, I just don't want to do the evangelism again. I just don't want to put myself there. I've been doing that sort of evangelism for 20 years, and I don't want to put myself in that position again. I felt I could go into product management. I've done loads of product management, starting at the BBC. So, I've had that, done that, over the years as well. And I felt that I wasn't going to get what I wanted and it was relatively immature in Australia, and I didn't want to put the time into it. And then I looked at my coaching and mentoring and development practice and I went, "Oh! The stuff that I love to do, growing people." So, growing them, seeing that they can move off, whether it is teaching them a new skill or whether it is helping them work out what the next stage should be. Talking about — and we'll probably talk about growing a little later — talking about what happens and how we can make sure that people who are over 45 actually have a real career. And I'm going, "Ooh, that I could make an impact on." And then talking about women in leadership. I sat there and go, "I'm excited about this. It meets my vision of growing people and working with people and being creative." Doing research on yourself Jorge: I'm thinking as I'm hearing you describe this, that this maps fairly closely to the design process, as I understand it, where you start doing research and you try to get a read on the situation that you're dealing with. And then with that context, you then start formulating certain hypotheses, which you go off and test. So, I actually have two questions here, and maybe we can take them one at a time. One is, when we're doing this type of work for a client, say for a project, we're researching the subject domain and we might have some degree of knowledge in the domain or perhaps not, but we are… Maybe I'll speak for myself. I can be somewhat emotionally detached from the thing that I am examining. But, the stuff that we're talking about here is very personal, and our identities are invested into our work. And how do we get a clean read on the situation? Mags: The clean read has to come from having someone you can talk about this to. Now, whether this is someone like me, who's a coach, whether it is a trusted friend or a mentor within the industry, you need to be able to have someone who you can talk to and then reflect back to you. And when I think about the sort of people who've done that for me, I think about my friend Julie who… There were a number of times — and she's in Minnesota, so I'm ringing her up on a Saturday morning (it's a Friday night in her time) — and we're having this conversation and I realized that she's got such a clean read on what was happening to me and what I would need. I went to a coach who, she… we were sitting there and talking about where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do. And very, very, you know, strict school-teacher moment. Of which sometimes I have those moments myself, where I have to sit there and go, "really? Okay. Let's talk about this in much cleaner terms, but also in slightly less emotional." And I think that's where another person helps. Jorge: What I'm hearing there is that the way to research this part of the subject domain in a way where your emotional entanglements with the subject don't throw you off track, is to have other folks reflect it back at you and just keep you… bring some perspective, right? Mags: Correct. And the way that I describe it is that every time we're doing this is usually at an inflection point. There is something that has sat there and gone: you have to make this decision. Something has picked you up. Now, this doesn't mean that you need to leave work, for example. Leave a place. It just means there's an inflection point where something's not working, or there may be an opportunity and you're not really sure. Jorge: What's curious about that is when I think back to my own inflection points in my life, those have been moments of high anxiety… Mags: yeah. Jorge:…which again, that's an impediment to getting a clean read, right? Mags: It is. And that's why, in some ways, doing a process is an element of taking away the anxiety. Because a process is sitting there and saying, "I'm going to do one and two and three and four." And anxieties mean that you go into loops and you're in a very heightened, emotional state. And if you sat there and doing a process… and I'm talking as a process-girl; I'm very much a systematizer. You sit there and you're taking the time to write and to draw? That works really well for us, if we are designers, we write and we draw and we all got the sticky notes. I still see the sticky notes all around my monitor right now. And you're taking time out of that emotional state to do some analysis. Testing possible directions Jorge: That's a great segue to the second question that I had for you, which is kind of the next step in the process, right? Which is, if we have a pretty good read about our situation, our goals, what we want out of it… then I would imagine that the next step is defining the… like you were saying, the possible directions. And how I would approach this in a design process would be to find ways of testing those. And I wonder if there's like an analog here for your career, like how do you test possible directions? Mags: I think there's a couple of ways to do this. And one is… so one of the bits I didn't talk about was positioning. So one of the elements when you look at it, you need to understand where you are positioned yourself. And I was talking to someone else in the network last night and he said, "it's not PR, is it?" And I went, "no, no, no. I'm not talking about PR. I'm talking about positioning yourself and understanding how you are seen and known within the industry, or seen and known within your organization." And start to go, 'Okay, if this is where I'm positioned, what could I move forward to?" And that comes back into this testing element, which says, what does your network talk about? Is there the opportunities there? Do you see this on LinkedIn? When you go to your network and say, I'm interested in coaching, does someone turned to me and go, "oh, Mags! You are fantastic at that. Of course, I will help you find that solution. Or I can refer you to someone else." Are you starting to find that what you are looking at makes sense to the network and makes sense to where you can position yourself in an organization or in a profession? One of the other bits that I go through in the book is I actually talk about the different types of careers that are available to design. And the term I use is "practitioner," not individual contributor. And I don't know if that's because of the time I worked in the UK, but, I don't like "individual contributors" as a term. Practitioner to me seems softer. We have three major ones that we do. We're a practitioner. So, we're someone who's actually doing… practicing the design work. We are a manager. So, someone who's in a managerial position, actually managing people or moving up into managing design within the business. And then we have consultants, who are people who are providing their expertise into other organizations. So, going up from someone who may be a freelancer through to a thought leader. And then we have "other." Of which many of us move into whether we are a teacher or coach, or I think of Kara, who's a chief of staff. So, you sit there and say, we've got all of these different roles. And one of the bits then is to test out which ones of these types of paths make sense. You can go and talk to others within the industry. And the reason that the chief of staff came up was that Kara, who is in one of my Slack groups, basically had a Zoom meeting where she talked to a bunch of us about what a chief of staff is and how it relates to us being design leaders and how our skills of organizing and researching and coordinating and putting things together work very well as a chief of staff for a senior leader. And you sit there and go, "ah! I've done my research. Do I have those skills as well?" Gap analysis Jorge: Do I have those skills — and I would imagine that there's also the… identifying the gaps, right? Like, maybe if I find that I don't have the skill, then the question is how do I acquire that skill. Mags: Absolutely. And that's the sort of planning… that's my gap analysis planning moment where you sit there and go, "okay! I want to be here and I want to be there. What is that gap? And how do I fill that gap?" You know, do I do more education? Do I actually need a network that's going to help me get there? How do I build that network? Planning is a big one for me. And one of the bits that I work on when I do this with people is, we go through the whole process. And at the end of it, we have a planning session and then 30 days later, or six weeks later, we catch up and go through the plans and see where they've been and what's changed. Because you can put plans in place and then life happens and change happens. And I think that's one of the bits that I take from digital, which is, yeah! We can plan all we want. We've got to be agile, but we also know there is so much rapid change in both digital and in the way our careers are and in our family, that we need to be able to move with it. Jorge: Just for the sake of being comprehensive… it feels like we've talked about two steps. This first step of getting a read on our situation. The second step: determining possible directions and testing them. Is there something that happens after that in the process? Working on the positioning Mags: Well, where I've seen what happens with the process is that we actually go forward in that particular direction. So, we start working on our positioning to get us there. I have this model of done, seen, and known. And so, the aim for us is to sit there and go: I've got this vision. I've got possible directions. I've looked at the impact of where I feel I can make the most impact in each of these. I've chosen a direction that I want to go. I have a plan for what I need to do to take me to that next step. And then a lot of it is then positioning. So, it's sitting there and saying, "if I'm somewhere…" Let's just take an example of me working at the BBC. I was working as an IA lead and I finished up on a CMS project and I was sitting there going, "Okay. What's next?" And someone said to me, "We probably need you to help to do some work on program information. It's sort of a small skunkworks project…" And I turned to the leader and said, "I just don't want to be the UX person on this. I want to be the project lead." And that took him slightly aback. "Ooh! Okay." And that was that. And it was the first time I was positioning myself at the BBC as being more than the practitioner that I was. I was sitting there going, "no, no. I lead the project. I organize it. I coordinate it. I have all the people. I'm owning where this is going." I'm not necessarily coming up with the vision for it, but I'm owning where it is going. And it then took me to my next role, which was an executive producer who is running 12 products. But without actually putting that out there and then starting to position myself and getting known for that, I wouldn't have gotten to that next role. Jorge: Which again, to draw the analogy with the design process, especially for large-scale systems projects, you have research, some kind of synthesis process where you map out possible directions. You embark on one of the directions. And then there is a governance process that follows where you keep evolving, right? The thing is not finished somehow. An ongoing process Mags: And we are not finished. And I think that's the big thing of all of this is to realize that we are never going to be… we may have a vision for now. And we have a direction that we take, but there's no way that we sit there and go, "This is the only direction I'm ever going to go." I was writing this up and I said, I think about two different types of people. And I'm going to say in design, but to be honest, I don't think this is limited to design, when I think about their careers. There are the planners who go, "I am here as a mid-weight designer and I want to be a senior VP, and I'm going to go on that ladder to get there." Then you have people who are floaters, who sort of sit there and go: "oh, I'm okay. You know, everything's okay." And then something happens and they have to realize they have to make a decision. In each of these situations, there's either a mindset of: I'm going to follow the ladder, or I just don't know what's going to happen. And if we actually sat there and went, "No. Think about this as a two-year vision. Think of this as a direction for two years and each time, test it. Do your way-finding. Sit there and go, what's happening? At this point in time, where am I and what's happening? All right. Should I be continuing on in that direction? Is it the wrong one?" I've had people who've said to me, "I decided to experiment and see if I wanted to be a UX leader. And I went and became a manager, and it became very apparent that that wasn't where I wanted to be." And I went, "great! Don't know where I want to be, but that's not it. Fantastic. You've tried it. Come out, try something else. " Jorge: You've learned something, right? And shifting based on what you've learned. To start bringing this to a close, I'm wondering about the current state of this work for you. You've already hinted at the fact that you're working on a book, but what's the state of Career Architecture right now for you? Mags: So, Career Architecture as a book is going to be out at the end of August. And I am taking pre-sales for the electronic. I have to admit, living in Australia and postage is a struggle at the moment. Australia has closed borders at the moment, so we don't have as many planes coming and therefore postage is really hard. So, I'm selling that as an electronic at the moment. It is a process that I have been using with my clients for the last two years and has been evolving over the last two years. So, I work with clients both individually and in programs, and I help them through this process. And I'm that trusted person that they have the conversations with of, does this work, does this not work? I'm getting them to reflect. And what's interesting is when I go through that process, when we first did the first vision and direction, everyone's going, "yes! This is where I want to be! This is what I want to do!" And then, through the eight weeks, it starts to temper itself and/or starts to really modify. So, there'll be people who sit there going, "I'm going to do this! " And then they realize, "I've got to have health benefits. Okay. Maybe I can't do that." Or, "you know, I want to grow my organization." And after a couple of weeks, they've realized maybe there isn't room for growth in the organization. Closing Jorge: Well, great. Is there a website where folks can learn more about the book when it comes out? Mags: Of course! It's maghanley.com. And I've already got some information there on the site about the book, and over the next couple of weeks, once we get close to printing, I will be putting more resources up. Because I feel as if you've got the book, and there'll be lots of templates in there. That's the lovely bit about the book, is that I really want to be a workbook. So, there are templates for people to fill in to actually get to the point of going, "oh, this is where I want to be!" But I'm also going to make those available electronically. Jorge: Well, fantastic. And is that website also where folks can reach out to you, should they be interested in working with you? Mags: Absolutely! So, you can contact me at magshanley.com, or always LinkedIn. So please, I'm there as Margaret (Mags) Hanley. Jorge: Well, I'll include links to all of those things in the show notes. Thank you, Mags, for being on the show. It's been a real pleasure catching up with you again. Mags: Absolutely! Thank you, Jorge. And hopefully in time — close in time — I will be able to see you again in person. Jorge: Let's hope so.

My guest today is Cyd Harrell. Cyd is a product, service design, and user research leader focused on the civic and government space. In this conversation, we discuss the differences between designing for civic and commercial projects and what it takes to design respectful systems that stand the test of time. Listen to the full conversation https://theinformeddotlife.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/the-informed-life-episode-27-cyd-harrell-1.mp3   Show notes Cyd Harrell on Twitter Center for Civic Design Code for America 18F California Courts CanUX UX for Institutions (Cyd's design deck from CanUX 2019) A sketchnote of Cyd's presentation by Eva-Lotta Lamm The Constitution of the United States Tim O'Reilly Jorge's pace layer diagram Living in Information: Responsible Design for Digital Places by Jorge Arango Pace Layering: How Complex Systems Keep Growing and Learning by Stewart Brand How Buildings Learn: What Happens After They're Built by Stewart Brand L.A. libraries will stop collecting late fees for overdue books and other materials (Los Angeles Times) Asimov's Laws of Robotics Read the full transcript Jorge: So Cyd, welcome to the show. Cyd: Thank you so much Jorge, I'm excited to be here. Jorge: For folks who may not be familiar with you and your work, can you please introduce yourself? Cyd: Yes. Hi, I'm Cyd Harrell and I am a user researcher by core discipline, but I also do a bit of product management and service design. And for the last seven years or so, I've been working pretty exclusively in the civic and government space. I left a job when my little research firm that I was working for, Bolt Peters, was bought by Facebook, and I wanted to do something a little deeper. I ended up at that point starting out with the Center for Civic Design, working on one of their field guides to ensuring voter intent on a six-month research project about county-level election websites. And everything kind of went from there. I spent time at Code for America as their Head of UX, and then Head of Product, and then I went to 18 F for a turn helping the Federal Government digitize or make better digital services for citizens and residents. And after a two-year term there, I came over to the California Courts. I can't talk too much about work that's in flight at the Courts, but I can talk in general terms about it and I think I would have a hard time going back to the private sector at this point. So that's kind of where I am. Jorge: What is it about working in the civic space that you like so much? Cyd: I think it's that — and this will probably be counterintuitive for people — I absolutely love the public servants that I meet and the commitments that they have to doing work that benefits a large swath of the public. There's a sort of myth that government is inefficient because people don't care and it's something the opposite of that. There are a tremendous number of people who care and who don't necessarily have access to the tools or the practices or the communities to help them do the best design, the best technology implementations. It's really hard work, but when it does work, the impact can be really huge. Jorge: The civic space is something that we're all participants in. It's not like in in the commercial domain where we are kind of willing participants in some ways; we literally buy into the space. But when it comes to the civic space, that's part of everyone's infrastructure, no? Cyd: That's right. And that's one of the things that's interesting about it in some way, because this is a democracy, we're all owners. And so, you would think that when you walk into a government agency to get service, you might have a feeling that you're interacting on that level. It's not always the case, and that can be done a lot better. One of the other things is that as you say, we're not necessarily willing participants. I can't go up the road and get my business permit from a different city than the one I live in if I don't happen to like the service or the rules. So, it starts to be kind of a moral obligation from my perspective to provide a respectful user experience to people who interact with government. And that's something that tends to really resonate with public servants when they're able to see the impact that their work has on people. That's probably my favorite kind of moment when I can bring someone who maybe hasn't had a good feedback loop with users to realize that the hard work that they do — maybe they're doing something like improving a form or making a public signage easier to read or something that seems kind of mundane — and they may not have access to see what improvements that provides to the public. But if I can bring them to see it, they can almost reconnect with a service mission and get really excited once again about the work that they committed to do very often as a long-term career. Jorge: You gave a presentation earlier this year at the CanUX conference that… I have not seen the presentation; I was not at CanUX, but my understanding is that you delved into specifically user experience design for institutions. Cyd: Yes. That's a bit of a hobby horse of mine. Jorge: I was wondering if you could relate to the listeners of this show a little bit of what you were getting into with that presentation. Cyd: Absolutely. So, you know, it comes out of my work in government and talking with colleagues who work in institutions like healthcare or like education. And I tend to think of an institution as something that acts, not just at scale, but over time. So government, the programs that we put in place now might affect people over decades, maybe even over centuries. And it requires a different kind of thinking than optimizing something that we know is going to be superseded by another technology in a few months or a few years. And one of the really interesting things about our time right now is that we interact with these long timescales in institutions via the short timescale technologies that we have in our hands, like smart phones or apps or the web. And a lot of the conversation around user experience right now is kind of around optimization. I'm making more exciting, more delightful, digital products that convert or that sell or that sell ads. And working in small cycles in an agile way that suits the engineering methods of the time that suits the kind of metrics, methods of the time and that I think actually makes it difficult for UX practitioners to really think about the deeper people-oriented values that we have to get into. So this is why I asked to borrow that diagram from your book for the presentation about the pace layers. We talk a lot about things at the top level, and that's very easy to talk about. And then thinking about, how did I want to say to the folks at CanUX that we have the ability to work with values, like for example, respect? Respect is for me a really important value in almost every design, but also in particular for government, where whatever the government agency is, it's interacting with someone who is perhaps an owner because they're part of a democracy, or who certainly is someone whose dignity is protected in foundational documents like the Constitution and so forth. If we start to imagine, the easy one for most people is, what if you went to the DMV and it was a respectful experience? What would it be like if I'm getting a business permit or even something simple like signing your kid up for a class at the library? What if that respected your time and your dignity and your abilities in full? You can start to get even more speculative. What if we came up with a way to make arrests as respectful as possible of the person experiencing them? Why don't we do that? What would that imply about every feature of a design? Let's do something a little bit less critical, say applying for public benefits. What if we took the processes and made sure that they were respectful of the time and the needs and the abilities of our fellow citizens who are experiencing difficulty and need our collective help? These things don't fit very title and to an AB test, and they don't necessarily fit very tightly into a sprint. But to my mind, this is the kind of work that a lot of UX practitioners went into the field to do. And pieces of my talk were around encouraging people to think this way and sharing some of my experiences with some really new design values to me and my work at the Courts. For example, neutrality or impartiality is a critical court value. The challenge is almost everything we think about web design right now. So the court can't really be concerned with whether you actually file your divorce case. It's of no particular benefit to it whether you do or not. But at the same time, it wants to make it easy for you to do what you need to do without an opinion. And that's so very contrary to the commercial way that so much practice has thought about. You know, how do we get people to align their needs with our business needs so that we can all do well together? Jorge: If I might read back to you what I'm seeing as a primary distinction between the two fields is, so much of what we do in the commercial realm is about persuasion. You know, trying to persuade someone to use a certain product or service or try to persuade them to use it in a particular way. And it strikes me that in the civic space, it has to be more neutral. It has to be less about persuasion and more about things like usability and findability. Cyd: Yes. And you know, the government has legitimate interests, I think, particularly on the Executive branch side, they might want to use some of those techniques. California for example, has a policy that everyone who is eligible for food aid should be enrolled, if at all possible, if they are willing. So, they might use some of those techniques to try and persuade people to enroll in a program. It's a little bit different with the Court. It's the only thing I've ever worked with where it has neutrality, impartiality as a core value, and we're making a website.  Jorge: For the purpose of folks listening who might not have seen it, it might be worthwhile to just describe this diagram that you're alluding to. So, it's a diagram that appears in my book Living in Information, and it's really a riff off Stewart Brand's famous shearing layers or pace layer diagram that describes how things change over time. And one of the points that he makes with this thing is that there are many things in the world that we perceive as changing somewhat homogeneously, or all at the same time. But in reality, they're composed of things that change at different rates. So, there are parts of it that change faster than others. Buildings is an example, and the original version of this thing came out in his book, How Buildings Learn, which is about how buildings change over time. Anyways, the version that appears in my book has to do with the design of information environments. And the layers there are, from slowest to fastest changing, the purpose of the system, the strategy of the organization that is implementing that, the governance set-up of the organization to implement that strategy, a set of structures that make it possible for the governance to be implemented, and then finally, what I call in the book “form,” which is the stuff that we experience, things like apps and websites and that sort of thing. But, just from looking at the material that came out of CanUX, I know that you've made some interesting changes, additions to this. Right? Cyd: So, I added on a little bit to make a point that I wanted to, starting with… Jorge's diagram looks a little bit like a WIFI symbol, but with arrows as the lines are coming towards the right. And I identified as sort of the current realm of design, the structure and form layers where we're thinking about the actual things that get delivered to users or experienced by users, and also the structures, the processes by which we make them, the immediate systems that we use in the making of them. So that would include anything like our tools, our sprint structures, our team organizations. But that deeper down, governance can kind of go either way, but strategy and purpose are really layers that make an institution what it is. And when and if designers are able to work with strategy and purpose and kind of the deeper parts of governance, we can do things that really have a huge effect on experience over time. And much of the UX conversation right now is kind of on the form and structure and governance of doing apps and software at scale. But the questions that we most want to ask, if we are able to get in there and shift some of the purpose and strategy conversations using the tools of listening and synthesis that are the core part of our practice, we can have our work have effect over a lot longer timescale. And that's valuable for institutional work, but I think it's also valuable as we think about the mass of software that's really becoming a major part of a lot of people's lives in the last couple of decades. Jorge: I'm reminded of something that I read, I think from Tim O'Reilly, where he made the point that oftentimes we confuse politics with governance, right? And those are very different realms. And there is some overlap between them in that the way that our societies are set up, the folks who manage the governance processes come to those positions often through political means, but they're very different things, and they have different intents, no? Cyd: They are, yes. Politics is in some ways, shorter term. It has cycles and you might meet many civil servants who either have been in place or intend to be in place for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. It was really, really interesting to me when I went to the Federal Government, I started in May of 2016 and I figured I was going to get a chance to see a presidential transition, which would be just interesting from a process perspective and I got a lot more than I bargained for on that front. It was a very different transition than expected. Of course, we're talking about the election of President Trump, if anyone is hearing this a long time forward. And watching how the career public servants dealt with the fact that there was this inexperienced kind of anti-government, potentially enormously disruptive set of people coming to power, and the language that they used to de-politicize it in talking about their work. So, they would say things like, “Well, the previous administration really favored assistance to labor organizations. The current administration has a different perspective.” Or, “The previous administration favored the Paris climate treaty, and the current administration has made some different decisions.” And you could tell from the way that people would say it that they had feelings about it. But the way that they used that language put them in a position to do what they could to smooth out and keep a continuity going across this very disruptive political interlude. Jorge: So how does one go about doing design work in information environments for longer-term purposes? Cyd: So, it ends up involving a ton of social work. Oh, let me think how I want to put this. It requires us to think, and not just qualitatively, but almost speculatively. In the presentation, I talk about the idea of “what if,” and I think I used the term when I was explaining around respect, what if we could make the experience of arrest as respectful as possible? Asking that kind of question starts to allow you — and you have to do a bunch of organizational work to get permission to put it into place — but it starts to allow you to look at design values that are below the surface. And I think in your diagram, talking about is sort of the strategy and governance level. So, at a governance level, if we really wanted to consider respectful arrest, what kinds of rules, what kinds of regulations, what kinds of accountability would need to be in place? How would we know if we wanted to talk about strategy, it would need to affect entire organism? By the way, nobody's doing this particular thing. So, this is just a thought experiment, but it would need to affect all levels of strategic thinking in an organization. If we wanted to change something that is that core. Because right now, the way that it's done, not that that's not a core value in those kinds of interactions with the public. You know, there are certain exceptions where we are arresting high status people at a protest. We try to be gentle about it because we know they're going to get out. I don't have a lot of expertise in policing, so I don't want to, you know, go too deep into specifics in my thought experiment. But just asking the question, what if it was like this? Why don't we do that? In the courts, there's some really interesting stuff around accuracy, which is obviously another incredibly important value and also tends to be thought of by experienced legal experts as, “making sure that no legal experts can poke holes in what I've said,” which is a very valid definition for it, given the way that things work in the courts and given the training that people get. But it's a difficult one for people who are on their own in the legal system or who are not experts because they may get too much information or the wrong kind of information. They may not come away with an accurate impression of what they need to know. And so, one of the things I've been doing there is asking, “what if?” What if we defined accuracy by what a person takes away from here? And what happens in response to that question? Because I have the standing in the organization to ask it to some, some interesting people. I hear what the barriers are. And I hear also what the other values are. That might be really important. What if we did that? Well, we might end up telling someone something that is technically wrong, which could get us in trouble in a case at some point. That's pretty important to know that those are the risks that people are considering, which enables me to then think about designing and, you know… Not even really designing towards the end user here, but I'm designing towards people who might be writing content. Okay, how can we think about those risks? Who can I work with to draw into this process, to design a process that takes appropriate account of those risks, but also has an end point where the things that we put out for the public are going to meet a definition of accuracy that serves the public. Whose support in the organization am I going to need to make people feel comfortable with taking those risks? And so then I have a whole new set of hypotheses and things on my to do list to work on, but they are a little bit more concrete, a little bit more informed, and if I'm able to shift something along that particular value, it's the kind of thing where if people make a different assumption about what accuracy means or what our clients need for accuracy is, or how we might best meet that need and also meet our obligations as a profession to the more standard definition of accuracy. Those people themselves, not just me, are doing a newer kind of thinking and that begins to get embedded in the institution, and then it's deeper layers of design value in a way that I know can stick after I've left. Whereas if I just work on designing a nicer webpage and leaving sort of surface level instructions about content or language, you know, “We use short words. We don't use a lot of helper terms. We always define legal specialist terms.” Those things are all important, but they don't tell you why, and they don't help embed that deeper definition into the slower-changing, deeper layer of an organization. Jorge: I want to reflect that back to you because I think this is a hugely important point that you're making, and I want to make sure that I'm getting it right. There is a distinction between doing design work at the level of the artifacts that people will be interacting with — screen-level stuff, let's call it — in the digital space. And then there's another level at which designers can operate, which has to do with the framing of the problems, right? Or the framing of the situation they're dealing with. In this case, part of the framing includes, “What is our definition of success here?” Like if we're talking about accuracy, that word “accuracy” might mean different things to different people, and it might be within the remit of the folks who are designing these systems… Rather, I'll be, I'll be more practical. I'll say it should be within the remit of the folks who are designing these systems to really nail down the definition of those terms, especially when it comes to the ones that are being used to measure the effectiveness of the system. Is that fair? Cyd: Yes. I think that's absolutely right. And you're sort of circling around a point about design goals, I think, which is something I've also been thinking about recently. So, my current partners are new to setting design goals except for I want things to be better, I want things to be good for the user, I want things to be simple and modern. And I asked a on Twitter a few months ago for some examples of good sets of design goals, and nearly all of the ones I got back were around, this is how we practice. You know, we practice with respect for users. We put our users' needs first, really important stuff. But I was surprised that I wasn't able to find as many people saying things like this goal around a specific definition of accuracy, “this is what we are going for.” You know, respect is our top value. Excitement is our top value. A consistent sense of safety and support is our top value. I don't feel, and it could just be mine at work, but I don't feel like I hear as much about those types of design goals as I did maybe 10 years ago. And in the work that I have ended up doing in the civic space, it's ended up being one of the most important things. I actually have such respect for people who work on the screen-level stuff and the material aspects, and I think it's really important for designers to have a strong understanding of what we're working with, what we're making things out of. But at the same time, if we don't know why we're making what we're making and how we'll know it's working, as you put it, then all of that can be for naught. Jorge: This example that you're using about the arrest is very powerful, because when you were first enumerating your list of services, I think you said things like, get a driver's license, apply for a library card… And then you list arrests as one of those interactions, let's call it, with authority. Cyd: It is absolutely an interaction with government. Jorge: Absolutely. Right? But it's an interaction that I think that for a lot of us, it's kind of in a different set than something like applying for a library card, which… Well, to begin with, the context in which those interactions happen is very different, the levels of stress involved are very different, the degree of agency of the person… Gosh, I want to say, “receiving the service,” but that's not right. I mean, even the language becomes fraught. So, I think that the very fact of just framing the conversation in terms of the values that you want to get out of the system strikes me as incredibly powerful. And then this seems like a good example. Cyd: It's a very provocative one. I use it sometimes in workshops with government folks, you know, as just a… Let's just take this over somewhere where it's going to be hard to think about, and then I ask them to think of other pairs of things that are hard to think about. Jorge: From a service design perspective, applying for a library card is kind of an easy problem to solve as compared to something like the process of an arrest, no? Cyd: So, you know, it's funny about libraries though. I don't know if you heard that a couple of weeks ago, the County of Los Angeles canceled all their library fines and they got back thousands of books. And there've been some interviews, and it's not so much because people couldn't afford the fines as because they were ashamed. And so, the process of applying for the card is a fairly simple service design. And yet the whole experience of being a member of this institutional library and how it treats you actually has some hooks into those deeper emotions and sort of deeper senses of worth. Jorge: Just hearing you describe this makes me think about how important it is for the people who are involved with the design of these systems to really get into the mindset of the folks who will be interacting with them. Cyd: Yes, yes. There's absolutely no substitute for close observation, receptiveness, real research, and context. And this applies to private sector things as well. And in some ways, you know, the way that the public sector can lead is it's fairly obvious that there's a public sector monopoly on certain things. There's a moral obligation to treat people in accordance with their rights and duties. But in the private sector, you can also think about these values. So, one of the things that I said in my talk is, how do we think about software as an institution? It's starting to be something that really affects people at scale and over time. And how can we think about how our work affects those deeper values in the institution of software, if indeed we want to name it that at this point. You can go back to Isaac Asimov's robotics laws and so forth. But as we're starting to have even more explicit and integrated interactions with software just as part of our daily lives, what do we as designers want to put forward as critical and underlying values for the way that software interacts with people? What about for the way that software gets developed? How does that affect it? Jorge: I wholeheartedly agree, Cyd. And that strikes me as a great place to wrap the conversation. Where can folks follow up with you? Cyd: Twitter is probably best. I'm just my name, Cyd Harrell on there. Jorge: Well, great. Thank you so much for being on the show, Cyd. Cyd: My pleasure. It was really fun to talk to you again.

Jonathan’s oldest friend, Marie-Claude, had a problem in high school. At 50, she thought it was behind her. But the problem’s recently returned with a vengeance. Lucky for Marie-Claude, her old pal Jonathan’s here to help in the Heavyweight season 4 finale. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by Stevie Lane, along with Kalila Holt and BA Parker. Editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Blumberg, Lulu Miller, Mimi O’Donnell, Nabeel Chollampat, Drew Zembruski, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Michael Hearst, Edwin, Haley Shaw, Blue Dot Sessions, Drew Barefoot, Gus Berry, Hew Time, Deqn Sue, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

After a drunken slip of the tongue, Steve Marsh and his siblings discover a secret their mother has been keeping for almost 40 years. Now, Steve wants to help his mom take action. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by Kalila Holt, along with BA Parker and Stevie Lane. Editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Lulu Miller, Hans Buetow, Damiano Marchetti, Alex Blumberg, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

On today’s show, three f-ant-astic stories of survival, friendship and courage about some of the most underrated creatures in the animal queendom. Produced with our friends at Every Little Thing, another Gimlet podcast. We spoke with behavioral ecologist Dr. István Maák, biologist Dr. Erik Frank, entomologist Dr. Christina Kwapich, and biologist Prof Derrick Brazill.  Check out the full transcript here: http://bit.ly/38cDgoU  Selected references:  István’s study on ants surviving in a nuclear bunker: http://bit.ly/2rkR2Fb  Erik’s study on ants helping each other in a termite hunt: http://bit.ly/2YlH6Y9  Christina’s study on ants destroying spider webs: http://bit.ly/2RnOMrt  Review on “dicty”- the amoeba we talk to Derrick about: http://bit.ly/2DQFoVk  Credits: Science Vs is produced by Wendy Zukerman along with Meryl Horn, Rose Rimler, Michelle Dang, and Lexi Krupp. Every Little Thing’s piece was produced by Gabby Bulgarelli, Emily Forman, Phoebe Flanigan, Annette Heist and Flora Lichtman. This episode was edited by Caitlin Kenney and Jorge Just. Fact checking by Diane Kelly and Nicole Pasulka. Mix and sound design by Peter Leonard and Dara Hirsch. Music written by Dara Hirsch, Dan Brunelle, Peter Leonard, Emma Munger, Bobby Lord and erm, Wendy. A big thanks to Dr. Nathalie Stroeymeyt, Dr. Gema Trigos-Peral, Dr. Jack Neff, and recording help from Wojciech Oleksiak And special thanks to the Zukerman family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson.

When Elyse was 21, her father, Billy, disappeared without explanation. When Elyse finally learned of his whereabouts, she was shocked by the new life he was living. Now, for the first time in five years, Billy and Elyse sit down to talk. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by BA Parker, Kalila Holt, and Stevie Lane. Editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Kaitlin Roberts, Alex Goldman, Caitlin Kenney, Alex Blumberg, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Bobby Lord, Michael Hearst, and Shanghai Restoration Project. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

In his twenties, Jonathan began seeing an inscrutable, mysterious therapist. After 6 years without progress, she told him it wasn’t working out because of him. 25 years later, Jonathan wants to know if it was really his fault. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by Stevie Lane, BA Parker, and Kalila Holt. Editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Tim Howard, Annika Witzel, Sir Richard Evans, Dr. Robert Proctor, Alex Blumberg, Luisa Beck, Emanuele Berry, David Berman, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Bobby Lord, Y La Bamba, Shanghai Restoration Project, and of Tropique. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Eight years ago, when Scott was addicted to heroin, he crossed a line he thought he would never cross. And he’s been trying to uncross it since. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by Stevie Lane, along with Kalila Holt and BA Parker. Editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Blumberg, Nathan Foster, Jacob Eppler, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hearst, Michael Charles Smith, Podington Bear, Shadowlands, Stratus, Haley Shaw, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

If a pandemic ripped across the world, how bad would it really get? You’ve heard the horror stories, but you’ve never heard one like this. Dr. Anthony Fauci, who advises the President on emerging infectious diseases, helps us out. Check out the full transcript here: http://bit.ly/2M4Tlnt  Selected references:  The CDC’s history of the 1918 Pandemic: http://bit.ly/2AXiGJP  Time-lapse tracking the transmission and evolution of H7N9: http://bit.ly/2B1nYnG  CDC’s Pandemic Influenza Plan: http://bit.ly/2pVroFZ  Institute for Disease Modeling’s flu pandemic death toll simulation: http://bit.ly/2M2ymSj  Credits: This episode was produced by our senior producer Kaitlyn Sawrey, with help from Wendy Zukerman, Michelle Dang, Lexi Krupp, Rose Rimler and Meryl Horn. Special thanks to Frank Lopez. We’re edited by Caitlin Kenney and Blythe Terrell. Extra writing help from Kevin Christopher Snipes. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Peter Leonard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord and Marcus Thorne Bagala. Comments and thoughts from Dr. Eric Toner, Dr. Demetre Daskalakis, Beth Maldin Morgenthau, Dr. Melvin Sanicas, Professor Michael Osterholm, Dr. Patrick Saunders Hastings, Rosemary Gibson, Thomas Bollyky, Dr. Ashleigh Tuite, Professor Stephen Morse, Dr. Lalitha Sundaram, Professor David N. Fisman, Lynette Brammer, Dr. Mohamed Naguib, Dr. Yeulong Shu, Dr. Dan Jernigan, Dr Kirsty Short, and special thanks to Bess Davenport at CDC. Death toll modeling came from the Institute for Disease Modeling, with valuable guidance from Dr. Mandy Izzo and Dr. Kurt Frey.  Thanks to all our actors: Annabelle Fox as Mindy Tuckerman Casey Wortmann as Dr Rosie Morales William Dufris as Dr Uzdienski Dani Cervone as Dr Emily Ragus  Jordan Cobb as the Triage Nurse Alice Kors as the distressed Mum Robin Miles as the Nurse Jonathan Woodward as Voiceover, 911 Operator, and Police Officer Ian Lowe as Emergency Services Officer Matt Lieber as the Politician Newscasters include: Kaitlyn Sawrey, Renita Jablonski and Gabriel Lozada Plane landing voice over: Peter Leonard Directed by William Dufris with help from Wendy Zukerman, Kaitlyn Sawrey and Fred Grenhalgh. Recording by Fred Greenhalgh and Peter Leonard. Also thank you to all the Gimlet people who performed various drafts including Chad Chenail, Gabe Lozada, Jasmine Romero and MR Daniel. And a huge thank you to everyone who listened and gave comments - especially the Zukerman Family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Finally, a huge thank you to Jorge Just, Stevie Lane, Phoebe Flanigan, Chris Giliberti, Justin McGolrick and Katie Pastore. 

Ashley’s grandmother, Beverley, had a hard life and an unhappy marriage. But she spoke frequently of a man named Van. Ashley believes Van was the great unfulfilled love of her grandmother’s life. And now, she wants to know: did Van feel the same way? Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by Kalila Holt, along with Stevie Lane and BA Parker. Editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Blumberg, Phia Bennin, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Charles Smith, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Becky and Jo were raised by a procession of eccentric babysitters, 16 in total. But their favorite was Leticia. The girls adored her… right up until the day she mysteriously vanished. Twenty years later, Becky and Jo want to know what happened. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by Kalila Holt, along with Stevie Lane and BA Parker. Editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Lulu Miller, Anna Sullivan, Kate Parkinson-Morgan, Mathilde Urfalino, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

When he was only 10 years old, Jonathan Marshall was sent on a 240 mile bicycle trip. 3 days. Across 2 states. With no adult supervision. 45 years later, Jonathan can’t stop thinking about the trip. Or the little boys he made it with. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was produced by Stevie Lane, along with BA Parker, and Kalila Holt. Editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, PJ Vogt, Anna Ladd, Haley Shaw, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Edwin, Blue Dot Sessions, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

My guest today is Rachel Price. Rachel works as a Senior Information Architect at Microsoft and teaches Information Architecture at the School of Visual Concepts in Seattle. Her background is in music, and in this episode we talk about how structures can serve as a foundation for improvisation. Listen to the full conversation https://theinformeddotlife.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/the-informed-life-episode-17-rachel-price.mp3   Show notes Rachel Price on LinkedIn Rachel Price on Twitter School of Visual Concepts Magic Eye optical illusions The Informed Life Episode 11: Lisa Welchman on Governance Improvisation: Methods and Models by Jeff Pressing (PDF) Free Play: Improvisation in Life and Art, by Stephen Nachmanovitch New York Times iOS app Screen Time on iOS How to Use App Limits and Downtime in iOS 12 Kind of Blue by Miles Davis Read the full transcript Jorge: Rachel, welcome to the show. Rachel: Thank you for having me. Jorge: Well, it's really great having you here. For folks who don't know who you are, would you introduce yourself, please? Rachel: Sure. So I'm Rachel Price. I am a senior information architect at Microsoft out here in Seattle. I'm also an instructor at the School of Visual Concepts here in Seattle. And then on top of that all I'm a musician. I'm actually a Jazz saxophonist. Jorge: Wow, that's awesome. What are you teaching? Rachel: So right now I teach information architecture at SVC, which is part of a UX certificate program. So I'm teaching really introductory students the world of IA in about six weeks, one night a week. It's a whirlwind. Jorge: That's fantastic. I'm very curious to know what you tell them. Like, how do you introduce information architecture? Rachel: Oh, man. I try to really focus on one really huge concept in many many different ways over the weeks, and that concept is teaching them how to see the world as an information environment and kind of see past that surface level of how many beginning students think of UX or design as just kind of the visual level. So the very first thing we start with is breaking experiences down into information objects. Admittedly, I use a lot of your quotes and I put your head in a tiny little bubble on a lot of screens to help kind of contextualize a lot of the stuff we're doing. But we practice just breaking places and things down into kind of information objects that make them up and the metaphor I use that whole time is like those… Do you remember those Mind's Eye puzzles, where you kind of have to cross your eyes or like look past the puzzle to see the 3D image pop out? Jorge: Yes, I do. Rachel: Yeah. So what I tell my students who are trusting me that all it will all make sense at some point is that we're learning how to kind of look past the surface of things like websites and apps and most of the things we end up building as UX designers and see kind of what's under that service and see those objects really start to pop out. So we do a lot of exercises around developing that vision. And if by the end of six weeks that were the only thing I accomplished with them is their ability to see information objects in the wild, then I'm super happy about that. Jorge: I had not thought of this metaphor with those puzzles. I'm curious. I haven't seen those in a long time, that was… If my memory serves, that was around the early to mid-90s, no? Rachel: I think so. I remember… I feel like I was about, yeah, 10 or 12 when I was playing with them. So far, I haven't had anyone look at me completely confused about what I mean by that but I imagine as I keep teaching I might find a generational gap there. Jorge: So are we talking… Are these like college level students? Rachel: Students who are trying to switch careers. So maybe they finished an undergraduate degree a year or two or five ago and have decided they really want to get into UX design. The School of Visual Concepts has a lot of different programs to help people get into different types of careers. I think it actually started as a way to help people get into artistic careers. I'm not quite sure if that's where they started, I should have reviewed that before starting this sentence. But really it's for people who are interested in exploring different avenues of creative expression. And then also I know they have this UX certificate. Because as you know in Seattle, we have a glut of UX jobs open and there is just a lot of room for new people to enter the field. And so SVC is one of the schools that's trying to kind of do right by students and help them get prepared for that. Jorge: I can easily see how this subject that you're teaching there connects to your job. Just judging from your title, senior information architect. But I'm wondering, you also mentioned that you're a musician, and I was wondering how, if any, that connects. Rachel: That's such a good question and it's frankly one I've been trying to answer for several years now. So I graduated — my undergrad, the music degree — playing jazz saxophone. And like many others in my generation, I graduated right into the recession so… And even not in a recession, you know, being a musician doesn't always pay bills unless you're one of the elite, right? And so, I ended up to kind of help pay my rent, I ended up working in SEO for digital marketing agencies and from there I decided I wanted to pursue my Masters in Library Sciences. So I moved out to Seattle to get my Masters in Library and Information Sciences and discovered IA and became an IA. So the question is really where's the connection? And I've been trying to answer that for quite some time and I think in the last year I've started seeing this pattern where I've been doing a lot of thinking about improvisation and how the ways we learn improvisation as Jazz musicians, there's a framework to it. There are ways to learn improvisation, you know people tend to think it's just this free-for-all or you're either really good at it or you're not and it's just this unpredictable kind of chaos, and the reality is that's not actually true. Improvisation is patterns unfolding over time. And when I started to think about improvisation as this pattern unfolding, seeing patterns everywhere, making connections, developing skill sets so that you can make decisions on the fly, it started to become really clear to me that there's a pretty strong relationship between that kind of thinking and the kind of thinking that we do in IA or UX. I don't think it's any coincidence a lot of people in this field are also musicians. Jorge: Yes, I've had a previous guest on the show — Lisa Welchman — who is also a musician and funny enough, this subject of improvisation within a framework came up as well there. So there is something there. Now, hearing you talk about it, it reminded me when I was a student, I was… I studied architecture, and one of the very first things that I learned, the very first semester I was in school, and which kind of blew my mind, was the notion that creativity thrives on constraints. Rachel: Absolutely. Jorge: I'm wondering if you can elaborate on this theme of improvisation within a framework as it relates to music. Rachel: Yeah, so, I mean there's all flavors of improvisation, you know. Performing musicians prefer different kinds. There is totally free improv, which is completely… Well, mostly outside of a framework beyond call and response, and it's like having a totally open conversation with no goal or theme in mind. But there are more traditional forms of improvisation, when you play over like a set of chord changes, right? The chord changes are the heart of a song. Song has a melody, which is the string of notes that is kind of the core theme of the song, like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, you know, you've got this melody going on. And then under the melody, you've got chord changes, which is just a progression a series of chords that the pianist is playing or the guitar player is playing that set the context for the boundaries of the song and how the song feels and generally how it sounds. When you improvise, you're playing over those chord changes. And what that means is that there's this framework that you're playing inside of, of notes that'll go really well, notes that will be really crazy and dissonant, you've got guide tones in the chords, which are like these little milestones and landmarks for you to land on that really set the context for the notes that you're choosing, you've got song forms, which tell you where you are in a song and how many times it's repeating and that sort of thing. So the improvisation is really making a series of choices about what note to play at a given time, but it's in reaction to a bunch of other input. There's a theory of improvisation in terms of the cognitive aspects of improvisation, I believe was developed by Jeff Pressing in the 80s. That is pretty straightforward. It's improvisation is some sort of sensory input goes into the central nervous system at that point if the player uses all these connections in their head, schemas that they know really well, patterns that they know really well, kind of tools or tricks that they know really well, they make connections. They make a snap decision about what to play. Then they actually play it and then the whole loop starts over again. So now they've created sensory input for someone else or for themselves, and it's just this recruitment repeating cycle of iteration. And so I think that that way of thinking about — it's not necessarily like constraints, things you can't do — but it's this framework of things that are guiding you and giving you context around maybe what makes the most sense or what would sound really cool or what sounds really bizarre if that's what you're trying to do. And so it's this idea that improvisation is not happening in a vacuum, right? There's all sorts of input going into it. Beyond just the notes are choosing to play. Jorge: How does that play out with information architecture work? Rachel: I think this can apply in a lot of different ways. The way I'm currently focusing on it, to me, a really direct parallel is how we talk to people and how in IA a lot of that boils down to user research. Right? It became pretty clear to me when I start thinking about this that when we do user research and were interviewing people, it's this kind of abstract situation or… Not abstract, but kind of ambiguous, right? We don't necessarily know what's going to happen when we talk to people. We don't really know what their mental models are going to be. We don't know how they're going to answer questions, if they're going to understand us. It can be this challenging experience. But so much rides on it because so much of the decisions we make as IAs needs to be based on what people need for my structures and how they understand the world that we're building for them. And so what I'm working on now without giving the whole thing away is actually this is a talk I'll be giving at EuroIA is, how we can use improvisation techniques that jazz musicians use — because they have all these tools and tricks of the trade — and actually employ those to become better research facilitators. I think a lot of what we know about research facilitation today kind of relies on you have this palette of question types, you can ask which is really helpful you've got all these things you can do to prepare for the research, but it's really really hard to practice being comfortable in a conversation with a total stranger which is itself an act of improvisation. You know, I think we're all improvisers when we talk to people and then when you're in a research setting and you're interviewing people, you're improvising with a lot of pressure on you to get the right information and ask the right questions and that can be really heavy feeling. So I think using improvisation, this improvisation framework is a way to think about how we interview people whether that's users. It could be interviewing stakeholders. It could be working through a tough meeting with your team. I think these are all really applicable things. Jorge: When you mentioned user research and this notion of improvisation… I've been in user research sessions where the researchers go in with a script for what they want to ask folks, and some researchers want to be very by the book and stick to the script. Right? And that would be, in my mind, using this analogy, it would be something like playing a piece of classical music where it's all written out for you. Whereas you could also use the script as kind of tent poles or points that you want to hit if you get the time. Like it's a theme that you want to focus on but but that opens up… I guess it's a style where it opens up to more kind of freeform conversation. Rachel: Yeah, I think that thinking of it as a… Like, I think of script as kind of chord changes, right? They're landmarks you're going for and you need to get there eventually, but feeling confident enough to improvise the path between those landmarks is what leads to a more productive, natural, fun conversation for both the researcher and the participant. And I think that's where… I'm not going to remember this quote perfectly, but there's a really great book called Free Play and in it they talk about how improvising with others creates these moments where this other thing gets treated in this third place that neither one of you would have done individually. And that third place, If I'm really going to stretch the metaphor, I don't think it's that far of a stretch, like that third place in music is really equivalent to that deeper level of understanding while talking to others, while doing a user research interview or whatever interview you're doing. So being able to improvise comfortably so you can get to that third place of creation, I think it's really the goal. Jorge: I love this idea of thinking about these conversations as an opportunity to create something new rather than go down some kind of prescribed path. Rachel: Yeah. Because even in classical music, right? The most wonderful classical performers are not just reading off the page, you know? There's a lot of embellishments that happen, a lot of phrasing that they choose to do in their own unique way that really brings a piece to life. And so even if you've got this pretty well scripted script, or set of objectives that you're being really strict about, that's fine. It's the path getting through those, I think that really is what brings research alive. Jorge: One of the reasons that I wanted to talk with you is precisely because I think you're a very thoughtful on these issues, and I'm wondering how if any this way of thinking about it has affected the way that you manage your own information. Rachel: It totally has. This coincides pretty directly with another kind of principle I've been working under for about the last year or so, which is that of radical simplification of the structures I put in place. Right? And so there's a big parallel between this idea of having this super scripted thing that you need to get through versus having landmarks that you need to hit. And I don't know necessarily how I'm gonna get through those, to how I manage the information in my life. I'd say until about a year ago, I really architected how I managed information and how I organized everything both in my personal life and in my projects and at work and all this other stuff. And I realized that by structuring everything to the nth degree, I actually wasn't helping myself anymore. It was really a reaction to stress and anxiety and this idea of like, “If I can just control every little thing, then everything will be fine.” And I realized it was actually backfiring, having that really intense amount of structure was just making the burden heavier. And so I started experimenting with this idea of simplifying, really really simplifying my structures, so that there is more room for creativity and improvisation in almost everything I was doing. I really realized that by structuring things so heavily, It just wasn't giving me any space to do good work or just be and relax and exist in this beautiful world. Jorge: I'm wondering if you can give us an example of how loosening up the structures can has led you to opening space for improvisation and creativity. Rachel: Yeah. So one concrete example is one that I've actually heard from a lot of people, where I used to make these really long, structured to-do lists because I just wanted to monitor my progress on everything, I wanted to feel like I was making progress on stuff and really keep track of every little thing that was going on. What I realized was having those long to-do list was actually just stressing me out even more. I felt like I always had so much to do. When I started shortening my to-do lists, I realized it's not because I suddenly had less to do, It's that I was really forcing a prioritization of what it was I needed to do. So, that's a pretty common one that we hear a lot, is this shortening that to do list. The other thing that I've tried to do is really just… I think I've been calling it like throttling my intake, and just be very selective about the type of information and the channels of information that I'm willing to take in. Because when you create space… You have a finite finite amount of brain space, at least I do. And when you just let anybody or anything fill that space then they'll fill it and it'll be max to capacity. And I realized what I was doing as I wasn't saving any space for myself, which means quiet time, time to be bored, time to sit quietly and just think about something. And so by really throttling my intake what I mean is, I have been practicing checking my email less frequently. I've turned off all notifications on my phone. My phone shuts down all my access to my apps at like 8 o'clock every night. So to help me throttle my intake. I do those short to-do lists. I don't check the news as frequently, and I really get curious when I am trying to pick up some information, if I'm doing it by habit or if I'm doing it intentionally. And if I'm doing it my habit I ask you know, what what am I hoping to get out of taking in this information at this moment? Like why am I doing this? Why am I checking New York Times app for the fifth time? What am I hoping to get out of this? And so that's been a really big part of this kind of experiment and just opening up space for other things that are not about digesting information. Jorge: You mentioned turning off the… I think you said the phone's ability to check email after a certain time. Are you first of all, are you an iPhone or an Android User? Rachel: Yeah, iPhone. Jorge: So are you using like Apple's native… Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, whatever they're calling it. I don't think it's the Do Not Disturb, but it basically… Oh, Screen Time. So I have my down time. There's a there's a part of that called Downtime and then there's a part called app limits and so I've got my Downtime set to start It looks like at nine o'clock at night. So it just shuts all my apps… It like grays out all of my apps and if I try to open one, it asks me. It says hey, “You're supposed to be in down time right now. Like, are you sure you want to do this?” And then usually I say, “You know, what? No, I actually don't really need to look at this right now.” This was an anxious reflex to some thought I had. Now I'm not going to open this because I know I really need to. Or the app limits, you know, I set some limits on social media because I get really sucked in and I waste a lot of time that way and it generates a lot of bad feelings for me. So I have my phone kind of helping me throttle some of that. Be my buddy. It's my buddy and reminding me that, “At one point, you said you didn't want to do this. I'll totally let you do this, but I'm just going to check first. ” Jorge: Yeah, it's somehow you have to opt yourself back into something that you said that you'd committed to not do, right? Rachel: Yeah, or even if you think of it, the way my screen is laid out… I love working. I get in a state of flow, I really enjoy it and that's great. It's a sign that I love my field, I love my job. The problem is that I'm not really great at managing that love of flow when I really do actually want to be doing other things, like at night. Right? I've been really lucky that I've never been in situations with any job I've had where people are pressuring me to work at night or on the weekends or anything like that, but I have a personal tendency to do it because I really enjoy it. So the thing that I'm trying to do is maintain that delicate balance of doing what I love but also I need a little help retaining space for other things that I love that maybe are not so pleasant in my life. You know, like sometimes I need help being reminded to play my instrument or to just sit quietly and not open my email and see if anyone needs my help. Jorge: I don't know too much about jazz, but one of the one of the things that I understand about improvisational jazz — and I think you hinted at this earlier — is a notion that when you're playing your instrument along with a group of other players, with a band say, and all of you have achieved a certain level of mastery over the instruments, you can get into these states of flow where you can improvise over certain structures. In hearing you talk about how you're setting up your personal information environments to wall off your personal time, I'm wondering how, if any, you've found ways of opening up those spaces for you to play along with others to collaborate with other people. Rachel: Yeah, that's a really great question. So if you think of a combo, a group of jazz musicians who are playing something together. They've all agreed at some point on the scenario, right? Like are we playing this particular song are we just free improvising in some particular style? You know, what other kind of the boundaries of what we're trying to do together? And then they move forward and play together. And I think that that really makes a lot of sense. And how I approach collaborating with teammates or with students or with co-presenters at workshops and all this thing is like, what's our shared goal here? What's this scenario we're in? What's the framework? And are there constraints we are working in? And now let's dive in, play together. And you'll you know, if you are an avid jazz listener and you go to live shows, there are definitely moments when some jazz musicians are… They really want to be the star, you know, and you can totally tell they're not really playing by the rules. They're not collaborating super well, and it totally happens because we're all human beings. And so there's also a little in how we collaborate in our work too; there are times when you've got different levels of people who are and are not playing along. And so you learn how to just keep communicating the goal, right? And keep just trying to contribute to that shared improvisation and and you keep iterating and you keep getting feedback from others about how that's going and then at some point you reach the end of the song and and whatever happens happened and you kind of move on from there. Jorge: I remember reading something about the Miles Davis album Kind of Blue. Rachel: Uh-huh. Jorge: Where… And I might be totally off on this, but I think I read this somewhere, that when that album was recorded they basically did all songs in one take, or what you hear on the album is the first take, and there was no music written out. It's just Miles Davis came in with the chord progressions, and he just gave them to the players and said, “This is what we're doing.” And that album essentially captures their improvisations and that's what comes to mind when you're describing this. Rachel: Yeah, totally that idea that chord changes are enough is so cool. Right? It's this idea that this pretty spare framework is just enough context to allow people to communicate with each other meaningfully with some shared intention, but with enough freedom for these incredible unpredictable moments to happen as well. Jorge: Just to bring it all back back together because we are kind of nearing the end of our time together here, I feel like our conversation today has been a little bit of an improvisation like that. Rachel: Yeah. Jorge: In that we had a little bit of a structure. Like I told you well, you know, we're going to be talking for about around 30 minutes, and these are more or less the themes we're going to be touching on. But really the the conversation itself has been emergent and I've learned a lot just from our brief time together, so I wanted to thank you for that. Rachel: Oh, absolutely. You're welcome. It's been really fun talking about this and seeing if the idea falls flat or not. Quite transparently, you know, this is the thing I've been thinking about for a couple months now and I think it has some legs and it's not just me. So it's been really fun to show some of these ideas the light of day and see how well they fare. Jorge: You were mentioning that you're going to be presenting this later this year. Where would be the best place for folks to follow up with you, see what you're up to look into your presentations and such? Rachel: Yeah. So my LinkedIn and Twitter are where I plan to post everything once it's ready. And those are really the only two channels I keep an eye on. And you'll notice, not surprisingly I don't tend to speak much on this. I do a lot of listening. But I'll be publishing decks and an extra materials there when they're ready. Jorge:I'm going to include those in the in the show notes. So thank you for your time, Rachel. This has been great. Rachel: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Before Roe v. Wade, there were thousands of illegal abortions in the U.S. every year. Some of these were incredibly dangerous; women would use knitting needles or coat hangers to end pregnancies. This, and other illegal methods, could lead to injury or death. In the 1970s, one group of women got fed up and decided to take women's health into their own hands. We talk to “self-helpers” Carol Downer and Francie Hornstein, who led a movement for safe abortions and education for women by women. Check out the full transcript here: http://bit.ly/2sfqhlB Selected references: “Back alley” abortions before Roe v. Wade (See chapter 3) https://bit.ly/2JA6gObA study documenting the techniques used for illegal abortions in the 60s https://bit.ly/2VLKl8eA Woman's Book of Choices by Dr. Rebecca Chalker (PhD) and Carol Downer https://bit.ly/2K5MbP4 This episode was produced by Wendy Zukerman, with help from Meryl Horn, Rose Rimler, and Michelle Dang. Our senior producer is Kaitlyn Sawrey. We’re edited by Blythe Terrell. Editing help from Caitlin Kenney, Kaitlyn Sawrey, Sruthi Pinnemanni, Jorge Just, Lulu Miller and Chris Neary. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Peter Leonard. Music by Peter Leonard, Emma Munger and Bobby Lord. Recording assistance from Anny Celsi. A huge thanks to all the scientists we got in touch with for this episode, including Dr Sara Matthiesen, Professor Verta Taylor, Professor John DeLancey, Professor Carole Joffe, Professor Johanna Schoen, and Dr. Denise Copelton. And special thanks to Michele Welsing and the team at Southern California Library, Dr Becky Chalker, Jonathon Roberts, Jim Aspholm, Odelia Rubin, Alice Kors, the Zukerman family, and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Women's Liberation Day: New York, San Francisco and Berkeley rallies of August 26, 1970 was used courtesy of the Pacifica Radio Archives.

The story of Storme DeLarverie, a true American hero. — Storme DeLarverie’s obituary in The New York Times. — The Nod is hosted by Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings. It's produced by Kate Parkinson-Morgan and James T. Green. Sarah Abdurrahman is their senior producer. This story was edited by Annie-Rose Strasser, Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just. Additional editing help from Sarah Geis and Jordan Barnes. Fact checking by Nicole Pasulka. Engineering from Cedric Wilson and Matthew Boll. Music in this episode by Calid B, Bobby Lord, Haley Shaw, The Five Du-Tones and The Morrie Morrison Orchestra. Nancy theme by Alexander Overington. Support our work. Become a Nancy member today at Nancypodcast.org/donate.

16 years ago, Gimlet Media CEO and founder Alex Blumberg made a promise that he didn’t keep. And it’s been eating at him ever since. In this season finale, Jonathan sets out to clean up his boss’s mess. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Peter Bresnan, Kalila Holt, and Stevie Lane. Editing by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Lynn Levy, Kimmie Regler, Amanda Melhuish, Mia Bloomfield, Phoebe Flanigan, Jasmine Romero, Matthew Boll, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Russian Ark is a cinematic masterpiece. Dozens of sets, thousands of actors, years of planning. It’s a perfectly executed work of art. Almost. In this episode, Jonathan sets off to find the one guy who ruined it for everyone. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Stevie Lane, Peter Bresnan, and Kalila Holt. Editing by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Sruthi Pinnamaneni, and Chris Neary. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hearst, Bobby Lord, Y La Bamba, Michael Charles Smith, Graham Barton, Hakan Eriksson, Katie Mullins, and Virginia Violet and the Rays. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Ten years ago, Rachael had a baby. She never told the father. All these years later, she thinks it’s about time she did. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt, Peter Bresnan, and Stevie Lane. Editing by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Katelyn Bogucki, Andrew Goldberg, Rachel Ward, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Bobby Lord, Michael Charles Smith, Hew Time, and Benny Reid. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

When Soraya was in college, her favorite professor hired her to help research a book she was writing. But when she fell into a deep depression and dropped out of school, she abandoned both the book and the professor who’d shown her so much kindness. Now, with Jonathan’s help, Soraya wants to make things right—with a grand gesture. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Peter Bresnan, Kalila Holt, and Stevie Lane. Editing by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Jasmine Romero, Mathilde Urfalino, Amber Davis, B.A. Parker, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, Blue Dot Sessions, Chris Zabriskie, Hew Time, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Joey recently had a very bad day, all due to awkward misunderstandings. So now, he's enlisted the help of Jonathan "Debonair" Goldstein and Jonathan’s friend Gregor to redo the day and set things right. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt, Peter Bresnan, and Stevie Lane. Editing by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Flora Lichtman, PJ Vogt, Saidu Tejan-Thomas, Grace Hawkins, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Blue Dot Sessions, Bobby Lord, and Y La Bamba. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Heavyweight performed a sold-out live show in Brooklyn, NY, last June. Jonathan is joined by This American Life’s Zoe Chace and Reply All’s PJ Vogt to talk about Heavyweight stories that never made it onto the air… until now. Plus: human beatboxing, Gimlet Media CEO Alex Blumberg’s vape pen collection… and Jackie Cohen. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Stevie Lane, Peter Bresnan, and Kalila Holt. Editing by Jorge Just. Special thanks to Zoe Chace, PJ Vogt, Victoria Barner, Chris Neary, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Emma Munger, Julian Kwasneski, and Bay Area Sound. Music by Christine Fellows and Blue Dot Sessions. Animation by Arthur Jones. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records and was performed by Matthew Boll with beatboxing by Devon Guinn. Our ad music is by Haley Shaw. Links “Chanel” animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3tSSOVglHg&feature=youtu.be “Buddy Picture” (the Little Mermaid story) on This American Life: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/203/recordings-for-someone/act-one

It’s a hodge-podge of gastrocomedic stylings and quick-hit segments from around the United States! Eddie Tassin tours us through all 15 dining rooms at Antoine’s (NOLA), the oldest family-owned restaurant in the country. Clint Funk tells a story about Wendy’s “Carolina Burger,” which may have originated at The Blue Ridge Grill a.k.a. “The Grill” (Galax, VA). And we play a name-dropping drinking game with Ruben Rueda, the longest-standing bartender at the Musso & Frank Grill (Los Angeles), the oldest restaurant in Hollywood, frequented by Orson Welles, Steve McQueen (Ruben kicked him out), Bukowski, Keith Richards, Johnny Depp, and more. Plus: how to skin a squirrel, according to the 1953 edition of The Joy of Cooking. And also: the Great Unfinished RFFP Food Rap Song. CONNECT: Tweet to us @richardsfamous. Call our hotline with tips & grievances 323-81-FOOD-4. AND PLEASE: Rate & review us on iTunes. FEATURED VOICES: April Green, Eddie Tassin, Tammy Garcia, Clint Funk, Oscar Hall, Ruben Rueda FURTHER: Read a longer version of Richard’s interview with Ruben Rueda in VICE Munchies: https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/mgxn4q/las-longest-standing-bartender-has-86d-more-celebrities-than-you Listen to a longer version of Richard’s interview with Ruben Rueda on KCRW’s Good Food blog: https://soundcloud.com/kcrws-good-food/ruben-rueda-musso-franks-longest-serving-bartender Listen to Richard’s story “A Million Dollars Worth of Plastic,” about a family (including Tammy Garcia, featured in this episode) in Galax, VA (home of The Grill) that won a million dollars from McDonald’s in 1989, via KCRW’s Lost Notes: https://www.kcrw.com/news-culture/shows/lost-notes/a-million-dollars-worth-of-plastic PRODUCTION CREDITS: Produced/reported/voiced/conceived/sound designed by Richard Parks III Mixed by Rob Amjarv Mustachio'd pickle logo by James Braithwaite Theme song by Bobby Halvorson FRIENDS OF THE POD: Caitlin Esch, David Weinberg, Benedict Moran, Steven Berger, Bennett Barbakow, Matt Frassica, Elizabeth Parks Kibbey, Nick White, John Callaghan, Jorge Just, Vice Munchies, KCRW's Lost Notes, the Galax Old Fiddlers Convention VISIT THE RESTAURANTS FEATURED: Lucky Stop Po-Boys, formerly Danny & Clyde's (Thibodaux, LA) for poboys and muffulettas Antoine’s (New Orleans, LA) for shrimp and grits The Blue Ridge Grill a.k.a. “The Grill” (Galax, VA) for a cheese burger with chili The Musso & Frank Grill (Hollywood, CA) for martinis

Sven was on a jury that sentenced a man named Paul Storey to death. He's regretted it ever since. Then, eight years later, Sven gets an email from Paul’s mother. The original article that Maurice Chammah reported with Sven about his experience on the jury: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/03/10/my-regrets-as-a-juror-who-sent-a-man-to-death-row Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Stevie Lane, Peter Bresnan, and Kalila Holt. Editing by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Blumberg. Special thanks Emily Condon, Maurice Chammah, Emanuele Berry, Caitlin Kenney, Jon-Mikel Tuttle-Gates, Amanda Marzullo, Mike Ware, Emily Fallis, Brian Reed, Sean Cole, Diane Wu, Christopher Swetala, Ira Glass, the rest of our friends at This American Life, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Michael Hearst, Blue Dot Sessions, and Bobby Lord. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

When Skye was in middle school, her best friends showed up at her home one night and wrote “f*ck you” on her garage door. After that, they never spoke again. Now Skye has a son entering middle school, and he can’t believe his mom never asked her friends why they did it. So, thirty years later, Skye and her son set off to find out. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt, Peter Bresnan, and Stevie Lane. Editing by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Devon Taylor, Annika Pillsbury  and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, Bobby Lord, and Edwin, with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hearst, and Hew Time. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Rob remembers breaking his arm as a kid. But the rest of his family says it never happened. Did he break his arm? The answer will determine Rob’s sanity. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt, Peter Bresnan, and Stevie Lane. Editing by Jorge Just, with additional editing by Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Phia Bennin, BA Parker, Matthew Nelson, Sandra Corddry, Maximum Fun, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Bobby Lord.  Music by Christine Fellows and Bobby Lord, with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hearst, and Hew Time. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Some Inspiration for your Casting Call Application. These days, it seems like everyone has an idea for a podcast. In this clip Jorge Just, Editor at Gimlet Media tells host Jonathan Goldstein about his many ideas.  Tell us about your idea at castingcallshow.com. Apply by May 21st for your chance to be the next great podcast host. 

The crew gets pissed. The Habitat is a production of Gimlet Media. It’s produced by Lynn Levy, Peter Bresnan, and Megan Tan. Our editors are Alex Blumberg, Jorge Just, Caitlin Kenney, and Blythe Terrell. Additional reporting in this episode by Eric Eddings. Music, sound design, and mixing by Haley Shaw. Additional music by Alexander Overington. Music supervision by Matthew Boll. Our credits music in this episode is performed by Alba and the Mighty Lions, and written by David Bowie. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. Thanks to Eric Mennel for all his help. And a very special thanks to the HI-SEAS crew: Andrzej, Christiane, Cyprien, Carmel, Shey, and Tristan. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.media/OurAdvertisers.

The crew leaves Earth behind. The Habitat is a production of Gimlet Media. It’s produced by Lynn Levy, Peter Bresnan, and Megan Tan. Our editors are Alex Blumberg, Jorge Just, Caitlin Kenney, and Blythe Terrell. Music, sound design, and mixing by Haley Shaw. Music supervision by Matthew Boll. Additional music in this episode by Bobby Lord and Elliot Cole. Our credits music in this episode is performed by Ellen O, and written by David Bowie. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. Special thanks to Kaitlin Roberts, Alexander Overington, and to Neil Scheibelhut. And a very special thanks to the HI-SEAS crew: Andrzej, Christiane, Cyprien, Carmel, Shey, and Tristan. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.media/OurAdvertisers.

The crew gets bad news. The Habitat is a production of Gimlet Media. It’s produced by Lynn Levy, Peter Bresnan, and Megan Tan. Our editors are Alex Blumberg, Jorge Just, Caitlin Kenney, and Blythe Terrell. Music, sound design, and mixing by Haley Shaw. Music supervision by Matthew Boll. Our credits music in this episode is performed by Reps, and written by David Bowie. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. Special thanks to Jasmine Romero for sorting through hours and hours of boring astronaut tape to find the very MOST boring astronaut tape. And a very special thanks to the HI-SEAS crew: Andrzej, Christiane, Cyprien, Carmel, Shey, and Tristan. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.media/OurAdvertisers.

The crew feels all warm and fuzzy. The Habitat is a production of Gimlet Media. It’s produced by Lynn Levy, Peter Bresnan, and Megan Tan. Our editors are Alex Blumberg, Jorge Just, Caitlin Kenney, and Blythe Terrell. Additional reporting in this episode by Eric Eddings. Music, sound design, and mixing by Haley Shaw. Music supervision by Matthew Boll. Doo-wop vocals by Nico Osborne and Sean Zuni Green. Our credits music in this episode is performed by Cyprien Verseux, and written by David Bowie. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. Thanks to Eric Mennel for all his help. And a very special thanks to the HI-SEAS crew: Andrzej, Christiane, Cyprien, Carmel, Shey, and Tristan. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.media/OurAdvertisers.

The crew opens the hatch. The Habitat is a production of Gimlet Media. It’s produced by Lynn Levy, Peter Bresnan, and Megan Tan. Our editors are Alex Blumberg, Jorge Just, Caitlin Kenney, and Blythe Terrell. Music, sound design, and mixing by Haley Shaw. Music supervision by Matthew Boll. Our credits music in this episode is performed by Pavo Pavo, and written by David Bowie. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. Thanks to Kaitlin Roberts for her help. And a very special thanks to the HI-SEAS crew: Andrzej, Christiane, Cyprien, Carmel, Shey, and Tristan. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.media/OurAdvertisers.

The crew comes back to Earth. The Habitat is a production of Gimlet Media. It’s produced by Lynn Levy, Peter Bresnan, and Megan Tan. Our editors are Alex Blumberg, Jorge Just, Caitlin Kenney, and Blythe Terrell. Additional reporting in this episode by Eric Eddings. Music, sound design, and mixing by Haley Shaw. With help from Bobby Lord. Music supervision by Matthew Boll. Our credits music in this episode is performed by The Weather Station, and written by David Bowie. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. Thanks to The University of Hawaii at Manoa, thanks to Tristan’s family, Carmel’s family and Lynn's family. Thanks to Dave Ruder. And a very special thanks to the HI-SEAS crew: Andrzej, Christiane, Cyprien, Carmel, Shey, and Tristan. You can listen to the official soundtrack for The Habitat on Bandcamp (www.thehabitat.bandcamp.com) or Soundcloud (www.soundcloud.com/gimletmedia/sets/the-habitat-soundtrack). To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.media/OurAdvertisers.

What's it going to take to actually get us to Mars? Plus, what to do once you’ve listened to every episode of The Habitat. The Habitat is a production of Gimlet Media. It’s produced by Lynn Levy, Peter Bresnan, and Megan Tan. Our editors are Alex Blumberg, Jorge Just, Caitlin Kenney, and Blythe Terrell. Music and sound design by Haley Shaw. Mixing by Catherine Anderson. Music supervision by Matthew Boll. Our credits music in this episode is performed by Sammy Miller and the Congregation, and written by David Bowie. Find the NASA audio archive here: https://archive.org/details/nasaaudiocollection. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.media/OurAdvertisers.

The crew explores their new home. The Habitat is a production of Gimlet Media. It’s produced by Lynn Levy, Peter Bresnan, and Megan Tan. Our editors are Alex Blumberg, Jorge Just, Caitlin Kenney, and Blythe Terrell. Music, sound design, and mixing by Haley Shaw. Music supervision by Matthew Boll. Additional music by Charlie Palmieri. Our credits music in this episode is performed by Serengeti, and written by David Bowie. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris. Special thanks to Peter Bresnan for his extensive research on the history of space pooping. And a very special thanks to the HI-SEAS crew: Andrzej, Christiane, Cyprien, Carmel, Shey, and Tristan. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.media/OurAdvertisers.

During a visit back home, Jonathan’s mother inadvertently admits something that forces him to question his past. In this season finale, Jonathan turns the mic around on himself for one of the more personal episodes of the series. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlin Roberts. Editing by Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg, and Wendy Dorr. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Emanuele Berry, Pat Walters, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Kate Bilinski.  Music by Christine Fellows and John K Samson, with additional music by Y La Bamba, Caspar Babypants, Michael Charles Smith, and Blue Dot Sessions. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

In 1999, an old suitcase was found abandoned on a Brooklyn street corner. The suitcase contained 5 years worth of love letters between a young man and young woman. In this episode, Jonathan tries to track them down. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlin Roberts. Editing by Jorge Just and Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Meg Driscoll, Kelly Coonan, Nicole Wong, Jonathan Zenti, Alvin Melathe, Anne Silk from the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Kate Bilinski.  Music by Christine Fellows and John K Samson, with additional music by Chris Zabriskie, Blue Dot Sessions, and Michael Charles Smith. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Ken Carter was a Canadian daredevil who dreamt of performing the biggest stunt the world had ever seen. He wanted to jump a rocket car one mile over a river. For 5 years he prepared, only to have his dream hijacked at the very last moment by the very last person he ever expected. Thanks to the National Film Board of Canada for their use of audio from The Devil At Your Heels. You can watch the movie here: https://www.nfb.ca/film/devil_at_your_heels/ Also check out Aim For The Roses, a musical docudrama based on The Devil At Your Heels: http://www.aimfortheroses.com/ Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlin Roberts. Editing by Jorge Just and Alex Blumberg. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Risky Rick Cruz, Cody Glive, John Bolton, Freddy Sibley, Anna Sosnowski, Lee Fortenberry, Adam Symansky, Lou Ann Leonard, Dick Keller, Harry Simpson, Gordon Katic, Saidu Tejan-Thomas, Blythe Terrell, Jessica Weisberg, Devon Taylor, Chris Neary, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Kate Bilinski.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, and Steven Page, with additional music by Michael Charles Smith, Hew Time, Blue Dot Sessions, and Y La Bamba. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Four years ago, Jesse was hit by a car and nearly died. Now he wants to find the driver. And thank him. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlin Roberts. Editing by Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg, and Wendy Dorr. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Saidu Tejan-Thomas, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Kate Bilinski.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, and Edwin, with additional music by Chris Zabriskie, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Charles Smith, Visager, Graham Barton, and Katie Mullins. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

When Christina was in 11th grade, her foster mother made her quit playing basketball. After that, she felt like her life never got back on course. And so, she’s always wanted to ask her foster mother: why’d you make me quit? Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlin Roberts. Editing by Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg, and Wendy Dorr. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Kate Bilinski.  Music by Christine Fellows, John K Samson, and Edwin, with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions and Hew Time. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Over a decade ago, Rose was kicked out of her college sorority. “You know what you did,” was the only explanation she was ever given. All these years later, Rose still wants to know what it is she did. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlin Roberts. Editing by Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg, and Wendy Dorr. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, Misha Glouberman, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Kate Bilinski.  Music by Christine Fellows and John K Samson, with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Charles Smith, Hew Time, and Keen Collective. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Last season’s episode, "Gregor," led to an unfortunate event that Jonathan could’ve never predicted. In this pre-season episode, he tries to set things right. Heavyweight’s second season begins October 26th. Our Sponsors MVMT Watches | Sundance Now | Spotify | Hello Fresh Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Kaitlin Roberts. Editing by Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, Wendy Dorr, Kate Parkinson-Morgan, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Matthew Boll with assistance from Kate Bilinski.  Music by Christine Fellows and John K Samson, with additional music by Y La Bamba, Blue Dot Sessions, Hew Time, and Caspar Babypants. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Abortion is so taboo. People don’t talk about abortions they’ve had. Doctors don’t talk about abortions they’ve given. But it's happening a lot. Almost a million abortions happened in the US in 2014. So, what actually happens in an abortion, can the fetus feel pain and what are the risks?  To find out we visit an abortion clinic in Texas and talk to Dr. Amita Murthy, Dr. Lisa Harris, Dr. Bhavik Kumar, and Dr. Diana Greene Foster. This episode is not about being pro-choice or pro-life, but pro-facts. Credits:This episode has been produced by Heather Rogers, Wendy Zukerman, Ben Kuebrich, Shruti Ravindran and Rachel Ward. Kaitlyn Sawrey is our senior producer. We’re edited by Annie Rose Strasser.  Fact Checking by Michelle Harris and Ben Kuebrich. Extra help with production and editorial from Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just. Music production and original music written by Bobby Lord. Thanks to Lola Pellegrino, Ronnie Shankar, Dr. Diane Horvath-Cosper, Rachel Jones, Elizabeth Nash, Dr Yoon-Jin Kim, Delma Limones and Gilda Sedgh. Also thanks to Katie Bishop and Reverend David Gushee. Our Sponsors:There is no sponsor! Weirdly we couldn’t find any companies were like ‘hey yeah we want to advertise on an episode about one of the most controversial issues in America’. So… you should be our sponsor! Support quality journalism that isn’t afraid to tackle controversial topics. Become a Gimlet Member for $5 a month to support our shows and receive exclusive perks like early access to new show pilots, an invite to our member Slack, first notice about Gimlet events, and for our annual members, your choice of a newly redesigned Gimlet t-shirt (we recommend the Science VS design). Further Reading:CDC Statistics on AbortionGuttmacher Institute Report on AbortionThe Turnaway Study - Women’s Mental Health and Well-being 5 Years After Receiving or Being Denied an AbortionRoyal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists - The Care of Women Requesting Induced AbortionRoyal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists - Fetal Awareness

One third of Americans believe in ghosts, and one fifth have had a personal encounter. We go to a haunted house with some paranormal investigators and things get spooky. But, scientists aren’t scared - they have a range of explanations for why so many people encounter ghosts. We speak to Dr. Katie Mack, Baland Jalal, Dr. Shane Rogers, and Prof. Chris French and find out what ghosts are all about. Credits: This episode has been produced by Ben Kuebrich, Wendy Zukerman, Diane Wu, Heather Rogers and Shruti Ravindran. Senior Producer Kaitlyn Sawrey. Our editor is Annie-Rose Strasser. Production assistance: Audrey Quinn. Fact Checking by Michelle Harris. Sound engineering, music production and original scoring by Bobby Lord. Thanks to Dr. Ciaran O’Keeffe, Dr Neil Dagnall, Dr. Giulio Rognini, Raymond Swyers, Dr. Joseph Baker, Prof. Kwai Man Luk, Prof. Kin Seng Chiang, Prof. Tapan Sarkar, Prof. Maxim Gitlits, The Zukerman family, Joseph Lavelle Wilson as well as Jorge Just, Devon Taylor ...and thanks to Haley Shaw for the spooooky violins in the Science Vs theme. Our Sponsors: Meet real Subaru owners and hear their stories on MeetAnOwner.com. Selected References:Baland Jalal’s Sleep Paralysis Hallucination HypothesisReview of Folklore Surrounding Sleep ParalysisWorld Health Organization’s Guidelines for Indoor Air Quality: Dampness and MouldChris French’s Haunted Room Experiment

Jean Grae is a rapper, comedian, producer, writer, and much more... and her genealogy is as wide-ranging as her career. But Jean doesn't know very much her family's past. So we help her out. We take Jean through South Africa’s complicated racial history, the birth of a political movement in Cape Town, and the pivotal role of carnivorous plants in science. And then, we’ll introduce her to a mystery relative. Tell us what you think of the show by filling out this survey! CREDITS: Twice Removed is produced by Meg Driscoll, Ngofeen Mputubwele, Audrey Quinn, and Kimmie Regler. Our senior producer is Eric Mennel. Editing by Jorge Just and Alex Blumberg. Michelle Harris is our fact checker. Music and sound design by Haley Shaw with additional mixing by Martin Paralta. Special thanks to Basil George, Colin Fox, Damien Samuels, the Archives on St Helena, CeCe Moore, Andy Kill, Tanja Hammel, Patricia McCracken, Dr. Sean Field, Mark Adams, Cherie Bush, Adam Brown, Eowyn Langholf, Brian Willan, and Andrew Lumby. Voice casting by NYC VO Coach Shelly Shenoy. Carol Muller is the author of Musical Echoes: South African Women Thinking in Jazz. Extra thanks to Caitlin Kenney, Stevie Lane, Ale Lariu, Kevin Turner, Kelly Coonan, Katelyn Bogucki, and all of the lovely people around Gimlet who helped us get this show off the ground. Plus, Harrison Topp, Chris Wright, Rebecca Heymann, Jon Anderson and Terri Raymond. Bonnie Antosh and Jeremy Lloyd sing our jingles. You can email us at TwiceRemoved@gimletmedia.com. We tweet @TwiceRemoved. We’re also on Facebook. Get in touch! Seriously. We’d love to hear from you. If you’re a fan of the show, we would love it if you could rate or review us on iTunes. It makes a big, big difference and is really one of the best ways to help others find out about the show. So hop into iTunes or your podcast app and let us know what you think of the show. Twice Removed is a production of Gimlet Media. I’m AJ Jacobs. Thank you for listening, it's been wonderful to get to know you this season. OUR SPONSORS 23 and Me - To order your kit, visit 23andme.com Adobe Video Tools - Download free trials and learn more at adobe.ly/twice Audible SincerelyX - To listen go to audible.com/sincerelyx. Audible and Amazon Prime members listen free Blue Apron - Get your first three Blue Apron meals delivered for free by going to blueapron.com/twice Family Tree Magazine - Download their free ebook at familytreemagazine.com/ancestry Squarespace - Go to squarespace.com and use the offer code "TWICE REMOVED" at checkout to get 10% off your first purchase

Abbi Jacobson is an actress, comedian, illustrator, and co-creator of Comedy Central’s Broad City. In this episode, we journey through her family’s past: we uncover a 50-year-old unsolved crime; one of the most contentious battles in New York history, and a pioneer in women’s sports. We’ll tell these stories and introduce Abbi to a mystery relative...and another surprise!  CREDITS: Twice Removed is produced by Meg Driscoll, Ngofeen Mputubwele, Audrey Quinn, and Kimmie Regler. Our senior producer is Eric Mennel. Editing by Jorge Just and Alex Blumberg. Michelle Harris is our fact checker. Research help from The New York Genealogical and Biographical Society, Robert Rockaway. Genealogical help from Jordan Auslander, J. Mark Lowe, David Zuckerman, Erica Howton and the people at Geni. Music and sound design by Haley Shaw. Special thanks to John Molina, Sandra Mann, Jane Trepagnier, Tim Martin, Andrew Hudson, Bria Schreiber, Melissa Kates and our Olympic Co-Eds singers: Molly Messick, Simone Polanen and Stevie Lane. You can email us at TwiceRemoved@gimletmedia.com. We tweet @TwiceRemoved. We’re also on Facebook. If you’re a fan of the show, we would love it if you could rate or review us on iTunes. It makes a big, big difference and is really one of the best ways to help others find out about the show. So hop into iTunes or your podcast app and let us know what you think of the show. After all, we’re family... Twice Removed is a production of Gimlet Media. I’m AJ Jacobs, we’ll be back in two weeks. OUR SPONSORS Squarespace – Go to squarespace.com and use the offer code “TWICE REMOVED” at checkout to get 10% off your first purchase Tinder - DTR is a new podcast about defining relationships in the digital age. Listen to it on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts 

Nazanin Rafsanjani is a beloved member of the Gimlet family, overseeing Gimlet’s advertising wing. She also has an incredible family story, moving to the U.S. from Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. And Nazanin’s family tree is filled with people who left their communities and started over, from the victim of an epidemic, to two literary icons. We’ll tell these stories, and introduce her to a mystery relative. CREDITS Twice Removed is produced by Meg Driscoll, Ngofeen Mputubwele, Matthew Nelson, Audrey Quinn, and Kimmie Regler. Our senior producer is Eric Mennel. Editing by Jorge Just and Alex Blumberg. Michelle Harris is our fact checker. Research and genealogy by J. Mark Lowe and Eowyn Langholf. Music and sound design by Haley Shaw. Interpreting and translations by Raha Hakimdavar and Sara Goudarzi. Additional music by Blue Note Sessions. Special thanks this week to Casey Turner, Loretta Shugrue, Sarah Rodriguez, Suzanne Campbell and the West Texas Collection at San Angelo State University,Vickie Webb, Dr. Frank Sousa, Heather Wylie, Brad Moseley and The American School for the Deaf, Dr. Amy Malek, Khodadad Rezakahani, and the band Lowland Hum. Jeffrey Einboden’s new book which talks about Emerson and his Persian influences is “The Islamic Lineage of American Literary Culture.” You can reach us at TwiceRemoved@gimletmedia.com. We tweet @TwiceRemoved, and we’re also on Facebook. Twice Removed is a production of Gimlet Media. I’m AJ Jacobs, we’ll be back next week with more Twice Removed. Hopefully you’ll be filled with delight… or perhaps abject horror. You never know. It’s family. Our Sponsors Blue Apron- Get your first three Blue Apron meals delivered for free by going to blueapron.com/twice Squarespace - Go to squarespace.com and use the offer code "TWICE REMOVED" at checkout to get 10% off your first purchase And be sure to check out another podcast about family: The Longest Shortest Time, hosted by Hillary Frank! 

In this session for editors - or anyone who wants to help someone else shape a story – Gimlet Media’s Jorge Just explores the delicate art of making good things better. Jorge walks you through various editorial processes (group edits, one-on-one edits, even walking edits), and plays samples from pieces at different stages of evolution to demonstrate the editor's role in how stories are conceived, developed, and sometimes killed. Learn techniques to help others make their very best work. Recorded at the 2016 Third Coast Conference.Follow along with the slides from Jorge's session:https://goo.gl/iUqcUy See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Ted Allen’s family tree is so rich with culinary history that his Food Network stardom might be genetic. From baristas, to royal dinner guests, to a celebrity diet icon, Ted’s family tree shows that one of the best ways to look at history is food. We’ll tell these stories and introduce Ted to a mystery relative. CREDITS Twice Removed is produced by Meg Driscoll, Ngofeen Mputubwele, Matthew Nelson, Audrey Quinn, and Kimmie Regler. Our senior producer is Eric Mennel. Editing by Jorge Just, Alex Blumberg and Caitlin Kenney. Original music and mixing by Haley Shaw. Research and genealogy help from J. Mark Lowe, Angela Walton-Raji, Erica Howton and the folks at Geni. Fact checking by Michelle Harris. Extra thanks to Brittany Luse, Jon Grinspan, Cherie Bush and Lee Mazur. Alex Prud’homme’s new book about Julia Child is “The French Chef In America: Julia Child’s Second Act.” And thanks to Lauri Ditunno at Cake Alchemy for making our sugarworks swan. You can see the pictures of the swan and a graphic of the family tree on our website, Gimletmedia.com/TwiceRemoved. We’re on Twitter, @TwiceRemoved and Facebook @twiceremovedshow. Twice Removed is a production of Gimlet Media. I’m AJ Jacobs. Thanks for listening. Our Sponsors Audible - Start your free 30-day trial by going to Audible.com/twiceremoved Blue Apron - Get your first three Blue Apron meals delivered for free by going to blueapron.com/twice Squarespace - Go to squarespace.com and use the offer code "TWICE REMOVED" at checkout to get 10% off your first purchase

Dan Savage has helped redefine what it means to be a family in the 21st Century. And given his ancestors, it’s no surprise why. Dan’s family history traces back to the 1920s Chicago mob scene, a South Asian autocracy, and to a New York City apartment filled with men trying to save a community. We’ll tell these stories and introduce Dan to a surprise relative. CREDITS: Twice Removed is produced by Meg Driscoll, Ngofeen Mputubwele, Audrey Quinn, and Kimmie Regler. Our senior producer is Eric Mennel. Editing by Jorge Just and Alex Blumberg. Original music and mixing by Haley Shaw. Research and Genealogy help from J. Mark Lowe, Krista Reynen, Eowyn Langolf, Erika Howton and the folks at Geni. Additional music by R-A-C, Tyler Strickland  and Blue Dot Sessions. Special thanks to Gene Trimble, Monica Garcia, Senator Dick Durbin (also a cousin of Dan’s), Riz Rollins, Amina Steinfels, Charles Manning and Richard Godbeer. Twice Removed is a production of Gimlet Media. Our website -- where you can see photos from our research -- GimletMedia.com/TwiceRemoved. We’re on Twitter and Facebook @TwiceRemoved. I’m @ajjacobs, because I am AJ Jacobs. See you next week. Our Sponsors Audible - Start your free 30-day trial by going to Audible.com/twiceremoved Blue Apron - Get your first three Blue Apron meals delivered for free by going to blueapron.com/twice Squarespace - Go to squarespace.com and use the offer code "TWICE REMOVED" at checkout to get 10% off your first purchase

When Jonathan was 16, he went to synagogue every morning. He even thought that one day he might become a rabbi. Things didn’t exactly work out that way, but he’s always wondered what if they had. In this episode, he finds out. Season finale. Our Sponsors GE - Listen, subscribe and download "Life After" today. Mailchimp – More than 12 million people use MailChimp to connect with their customers, market their products, and grow their businesses every day. Squarespace – The easiest way to create a beautiful website, portfolio or online store. Use the offer code “HEAVYWEIGHT” to get 10% off your first purchase. Wealthsimple – Investing made easy. Get your first $10,000 managed for free. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Chris Neary and Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Wendy Dorr. Editing by Alex Blumberg, Paul Tough, and Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Steven Page, Paul de Jong, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Haley Shaw. Music for this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music by Steven Page, Y La Bamba, Farnell Newton, Chris Zabriskie, Todd Hannigan, and Marmoset. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw. === Original video: https://soundcloud.com/heavyweightpodcast/8-jeremy

When Jonathan was 16, he went to synagogue every morning. He even thought that one day he might become a rabbi. Things didn’t exactly work out that way, but he’s always wondered what if they had. In this episode, he finds out. Our Sponsors GE - Listen, subscribe and download "Life After" today. Mailchimp – More than 12 million people use MailChimp to connect with their customers, market their products, and grow their businesses every day. Squarespace – The easiest way to create a beautiful website, portfolio or online store. Use the offer code “HEAVYWEIGHT” to get 10% off your first purchase. Wealthsimple – Investing made easy. Get your first $10,000 managed for free. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Chris Neary and Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Wendy Dorr. Editing by Alex Blumberg, Paul Tough, and Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Steven Page, Paul de Jong, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Haley Shaw.  Music for this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music by Steven Page, Y La Bamba, Farnell Newton, Chris Zabriskie, Todd Hannigan, and Marmoset. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

In grade 8, Julia was bullied so badly by a group of girls that she changed schools without telling anyone. Soon after, the girls from her old school showed up at her house and rang her doorbell. She didn’t answer it. For the past 20 years, Julia’s been wondering what those girls wanted. Go to GimletMedia.com/FallSeason to subscribe to Homecoming and Gimlet's other new podcasts. Our Sponsors Hello Fresh - To get $35 off your first week of deliveries visit hellofresh.com and enter promo code "HEAVYWEIGHT" Mailchimp – More than 12 million people use MailChimp to connect with their customers, market their products, and grow their businesses every day. Talkspace - Visit talkspace.com/heavy or download the app and use promo code “HEAVY” to receive $30 off your first month Wealthsimple – Investing made easy. Get your first $10,000 managed for free. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Chris Neary and Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Wendy Dorr. Editing by Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Maya Goldberg-Safir, Lina Chambers, Emily Kennedy, Laura Scott, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Haley Shaw.  Music for this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music by Blue Dot Sessions and Keen Collective. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

James’s father’s dying wish was for his ashes to be disposed of on the 18th hole of a fancy private golf course. That was 16 years ago. In this episode, James, Jonathan, and their friend Howard attempt a golf heist to get into the club and set things right. Our Sponsors Blue Apron - Check out this week’s menu and get your first 3 meals free by going to blueapron.com/heavyweight Mailchimp – More than 12 million people use MailChimp to connect with their customers, market their products, and grow their businesses every day. Talkspace - Visit talkspace.com/heavy or download the app and use promo code “HEAVY” to receive $30 off your first month Wealthsimple – Investing made easy. Get your first $10,000 managed for free. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Chris Neary and Kalila Holt. The senior producer is Wendy Dorr. Editing by Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, Derek Hurst, Stephen Hughes, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Haley Shaw.  Music for this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music by Paul De Jong, Blue Dot Sessions, Benny Reid,  Caspar Babypants, and Hew Time. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Galit was Jonathan’s first girlfriend. When she dumped him, he cried a lot and then locked away his emotional vulnerability in a safe for the next several decades. In this episode, Galit sends Jonathan a Facebook message asking if he’d like to meet up. Our Sponsors Mailchimp – More than 12 million people use MailChimp to connect with their customers, market their products, and grow their businesses every day. Squarespace – The easiest way to create a beautiful website, portfolio or online store. Use the offer code “HEAVYWEIGHT” to get 10% off your first purchase. Wealthsimple – Investing made easy. Get your first $10,000 managed for free. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Chris Neary and Kalila Holt. Our senior producer is Wendy Dorr. Editing by Alex Blumberg, Paul Tough, and Jorge Just. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Stevie Lane, John K Samson, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Haley Shaw. Music for this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music by Frisco J, Y La Bamba, Keen Collective, Hew Time, and Katie Mullins. Sam Kogon’s song “My Love It Burns” can be found here. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Something borrowed, something blue, something that explains why weddings look the way they do. The Facts Our theme music is by Nicholas Britell and our ad music is by Build Buildings. We were edited this week by Annie-Rose Strasser, and produced by Christine Driscoll, Elizabeth Kulas, and Rikki Novetsky.  Sylvie Douglis and Nick Fountain field produced at the wedding. Thank you to Sue and Austin’s friends and family for letting us ask so many questions and bother you during the whole wedding. Thanks to Jorge Just -- and sorry we forgot to thank you last time, and to our beloved mix engineer Andrew Dunn. ANDREW DUNN MIXED THIS EPISODE, he always mixes our episodes, and we have not been great about remembering to tell you that! Additional production assistance came from Jacob Cruz, Emily Kennedy, Melanie Kruvelis, Sarah Melton and Sarah Stoddard. Thank you to Karen Klaiber Hersch, Gayle Strege, Patrick O’Neil, Jennifer Gellmann and Sharon Boulani. And finally, stay posted with us as we report the next season. You can follow us on Twitter, subscribe to the newsletter, or subscribe to us on your podcatcher for all our cool updates! See you in 2017! Learn More If you want to learn more Folk-Lore of Women you can access it via the wonderful Project Gutenberg at this link. Did you like learning the value of the garter industry in 1952? What a rebel - you probably need Dr. Vicki Howard's book at this link or your local library. There are a lot of wedding traditions out there!  We obviously didn't cover them all! There's a great history about women changing their last names by Dr. Sophie Coulombeau at the BBC. For some funny and insightful thoughts on the prevalence of Corinthians in wedding vows, check out this essay by Kate Braestrup at Huffington Post. Our Sponsors Blue Apron – Delivering all the fresh ingredients you need to create home-cooked meals. Click now to get your first three meals for free. Casper – Get $50 towards any Casper Mattress purchase by visiting casper.com/awesome and using the offer code “AWESOME”.

Years ago, Tony messed up his relationship with each of his three godchildren owing to three difficult chapters in his life. Now, childless and single in his late 40’s, and fearing he may never have kids of his own, Tony wants to win them back. Our Sponsors Mailchimp – More than 12 million people use MailChimp to connect with their customers, market their products, and grow their businesses every day. Hello Fresh – To get $35 off your first week of deliveries visit hellofresh.com and enter promo code “HEAVYWEIGHT” Wealthsimple – Investing made easy. Get your first $10,000 managed for free. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Chris Neary and Kalila Holt. Our senior producer is Wendy Dorr. Editing by Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just.   Special thanks to Emily Condon, Anna Asimakopulos, and Jackie Cohen.  The show was mixed by Haley Shaw.  Music for this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music by John K Samson, Michael Smith, Wonderly, Blue Dot Sessions, and Hew Time. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

Jonathan watched a short experimental video in college in which a little girl sat in silence while her parent sobbed. Now, Jonathan wants to know if that girl is okay. Watch "Anger" here: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/167119 You can find Maxi Cohen's website here: http://www.maxicohenstudio.com/ Our Sponsors Casper - Get $50 towards any Casper Mattress purchase by visiting casper.com/heavyweight and using the offer code "HEAVYWEIGHT". Mailchimp – More than 12 million people use MailChimp to connect with their customers, market their products, and grow their businesses every day. Wealthsimple – Investing made easy. Get your first $10,000 managed for free. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Chris Neary and Kalila Holt. Our senior producer is Wendy Dorr. Editing by Alex Blumberg and Jorge Just.  Special thanks to Emily Condon, Caitlin Kenney, Peter Clowney, Michelle Harris, Dr. Susan Boulware at Yale Pediatric Endocrinology, Maxi Cohen, Jack Hitt, Jack Turban, Lida Drummond, Mario Falsetto, Peter Rose, and Jackie Cohen. The show was mixed by Haley Shaw. Music for this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music by Chris Zabriskie, Blue Dot Sessions, Katie Mullins, Y La Bamba, Stratus, and Matthew Boll. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Haley Shaw.

20 years ago, Gregor lent some CDs to a musician friend. The CDs helped make him a famous rockstar. Now, Gregor would like some recognition. But mostly, he wants his CDs back. Our Sponsors Mailchimp – More than 12 million people use MailChimp to connect with their customers, market their products, and grow their businesses every day. Prudential - Download the MapMyRun app and join the Prudential 4.01K challenge. When you do, pledge to save at least 1% or more of your annual income for retirement and run and log 4.01K to be eligible to win a prize. Squarespace – The easiest way to create a beautiful website, portfolio or online store. Use the offer code “HEAVYWEIGHT" to get 10% off your first purchase. Wealthsimple – Investing made easy. Get your first $10,000 managed for free. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein, along with Wendy Dorr, Chris Neary, and Kalila Holt. Editing by Alex Blumberg & Peter Clowney. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Jackie Cohen, Paul Tough, Stevie Lane, Michelle Harris, Dimitri Erlich, Sean Cole and Jorge Just. The show was mixed by Haley Shaw. Music for this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music by Talk-star, The Eastern Watershed Klezmer Quartet and Haley Shaw, who also did our ad music. Our theme song is by The Weak...

20 years ago, Gregor lent some CDs to a musician friend. The CDs helped make him a famous rockstar. Now, Gregor would like some recognition. But mostly, he wants his CDs back. Our Sponsors Mailchimp – More than 12 million people use MailChimp to connect with their customers, market their products, and grow their businesses every day. Prudential - Download the MapMyRun app and join the Prudential 4.01K challenge. When you do, pledge to save at least 1% or more of your annual income for retirement and run and log 4.01K to be eligible to win a prize. Squarespace – The easiest way to create a beautiful website, portfolio or online store. Use the offer code “HEAVYWEIGHT" to get 10% off your first purchase. Wealthsimple – Investing made easy. Get your first $10,000 managed for free. Credits Heavyweight is hosted and produced by Jonathan Goldstein, along with Wendy Dorr, Chris Neary, and Kalila Holt.  Editing by Alex Blumberg & Peter Clowney.   Special thanks to Emily Condon, Jackie Cohen, Paul Tough, Stevie Lane, Michelle Harris, Dimitri Erlich, Sean Cole and Jorge Just.  The show was mixed by Haley Shaw.  Music for this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music by Talk-star, The Eastern Watershed Klezmer Quartet, Hew Time, Michael Smith, Farnell Newton, and Haley Shaw, who also did our ad music. Our theme song is by The Weakerthans courtesy of Epitaph Records.